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2020-09-01T09:23:28Z iissaacc: has anyone else noticed issues with postmodern's with-connection macro seemingly not releasing a connection?
2020-09-01T09:27:24Z phoe: https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/blob/8a44fd6d27dfa44be321bd647fc1d6ca6a2b8c9f/postmodern/connect.lisp#L96-L101
2020-09-01T09:27:37Z phoe: iissaacc: what do you mean by seemingly not releasing it?
2020-09-01T09:29:05Z iissaacc: well, I used a couple of functions with a with-connection in them, they ended, but then i go to try and drop the test database that i created and i get an error telling me it is in use
2020-09-01T09:29:49Z iissaacc: checking pg_stat_activity shows 2 idle connections from the user i specified in the with-connection parameters
2020-09-01T09:29:58Z phoe: hmmm
2020-09-01T09:30:30Z iissaacc: *database* is nil, as expected
2020-09-01T09:30:42Z no-defun-allowed: Could there be another meaning of "in use", like that the table is being used by a view or something? I haven't gotten deep into SQL to say anything for sure.
2020-09-01T09:31:08Z phoe: can you try to reproduce it? are you sure that you did not do any toplevel connections from the REPL, or that you reassigned the value of POSTMODERN:*DATABASE*?
2020-09-01T09:32:04Z phoe: did you use the :POOLED-P parameter to CONNECT?
2020-09-01T09:32:17Z iissaacc: yep i used pooled-p
2020-09-01T09:32:22Z phoe: there you go
2020-09-01T09:32:41Z phoe: docstring for method DISCONNECT (DATABASE-CONNECTION): "Disconnects a normal database connection, or moves a pooled connection into the pool."
2020-09-01T09:32:42Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, pooling would cause Postmodern to stash connections for reuse.
2020-09-01T09:32:49Z iissaacc: ahhhhhhhh
2020-09-01T09:33:02Z no-defun-allowed: You might want CLEAR-CONNECTION-POOL
2020-09-01T09:33:04Z phoe: call (pomo:clear-connection-pool)
2020-09-01T09:33:06Z iissaacc: thank you phoe and no-defun-allowed
2020-09-01T09:33:08Z phoe: yes, this
2020-09-01T09:33:38Z iissaacc: im not very au fait with postgres itself
2020-09-01T09:33:46Z no-defun-allowed: But I still wonder if that's the problem; if the connections aren't being used for anything, why would they prevent a table from being dropped?
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2020-09-01T09:34:02Z iissaacc: *database being dropped
2020-09-01T09:34:07Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: you can't pull a rug on which you are standing
2020-09-01T09:34:31Z phoe: you connect to a particular database, so you can't destroy the database while there's still something connected to it
2020-09-01T09:34:34Z no-defun-allowed: A database, eh? That would probably be different then, sure.
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2020-09-01T09:39:32Z pve: iissaacc: in case your wondering about the quality of postmodern, I've used it quite a bit and found it very reliable
2020-09-01T09:39:43Z phoe: ^
2020-09-01T09:40:16Z iissaacc: it's the first time i've done any sql really so im working on the theory that any problems are probably the result of my own ignorance
2020-09-01T09:40:53Z iissaacc: its neat how you can build little mini languages that compile to sql queries
2020-09-01T09:41:11Z pve: when it comes to postmodern (and postgresql for that matter), any weirdness has always been my own fault
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2020-09-01T09:43:02Z iissaacc: ive been writing my own migrations library to try get a better handle on it
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2020-09-01T14:09:29Z treflip: mseddon_: Hi! You was right, it looks like semantic grammar is what I need. Do you know any software that uses this approach or maybe publications that have any code examples? I found only 2 kinds of publications on this topic. The first one is academic stuff that takes a lot of time to grok, and the other one is super simple articles on medium that give only vague understanding of this concept and
2020-09-01T14:09:31Z treflip: don't provide any code examples or guidelines.
2020-09-01T14:12:47Z mseddon_: treflip, as a general rule you basically just need a parser. The Earley parser is quite popular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earley_parser but for insanely fast parses, do check out Tomita's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLR_parser
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2020-09-01T17:49:57Z warweasle: Can I use drakma to fill out a login form? I have to access a vendor site (with permission) to check for new data daily.
2020-09-01T17:50:36Z warweasle: I see a field for :form-data but no examples... or much explaination.
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2020-09-01T17:53:25Z Josh_2: yes, you send the post params to wherever the form would
2020-09-01T17:56:32Z jmercouris: You can also just uiop and run curl
2020-09-01T17:56:40Z jmercouris: or wget, or whatever other utility you would like
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2020-09-01T18:01:09Z warweasle: Josh_2: Would that be in alist form?
2020-09-01T18:01:32Z warweasle: '((:name "joe") (:password "mamma"))?
2020-09-01T18:04:10Z warweasle: I'm confused about uiop
2020-09-01T18:04:44Z warweasle: Oh, run as a shell.
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2020-09-01T18:13:56Z jmercouris: uiop:run-program
2020-09-01T18:14:50Z aeth: warweasle: Depends on what you want with the alist. The alist is actually (foo . bar) to store bar while (foo bar) stores (bar) but you often see that.
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2020-09-01T19:03:13Z warweasle: jmercouris: Thanks for reminding me of wget. You just saved me a ton of time.
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2020-09-01T19:25:48Z jmercouris: no problem
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2020-09-02T03:06:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-02T06:21:44Z ldb: good afternoon
2020-09-02T06:21:54Z beach: Hello ldb.
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2020-09-02T06:30:28Z drmeister: https://www.dropbox.com/s/27j4i33n7l5n4w7/Screen%20Recording%202020-09-02%20at%202.24.52%20AM.mov?dl=0
2020-09-02T06:30:46Z drmeister: Assembling molecules using Common Lisp.
2020-09-02T06:34:40Z beach: Cute.
2020-09-02T06:37:19Z splittist: Cool. Hi all.
2020-09-02T06:37:29Z beach: Hello splittist.
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2020-09-02T11:13:46Z Josh_2: afternoon
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2020-09-02T11:20:28Z jmercouris: evening mr Josh
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2020-09-02T11:31:30Z Harag: Good afternoon.
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2020-09-02T11:36:34Z jmercouris: Good afternoon mr Harag
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2020-09-02T13:23:19Z beach: I am working on part 3 of my presentations "Creating a Common Lisp implementation" for the online Lisp meeting.  I am guessing it will be streamed next week.  It won't be as "light weight" as the previous ones.  But that's what it takes.  There will be some Common Lisp code that we will look at together, and that I will explain as well as I can.
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2020-09-02T13:28:46Z beach: Strategy 1 (that I talked about in parts 1 and 2) was about writing a small core in (say) C, and loading modules written in Common Lisp to obtain a complete system.  But, as it turned out, the core had to be much larger than we had hoped.  Part 3 is about strategy 2 which is to cross-compile large parts of the system code on an existing Common Lisp implementation.
2020-09-02T13:31:04Z beach: I guess if part 3 turns out to be to hard to follow for some, it can always be watched again later.
2020-09-02T13:31:50Z beach: Oh, and those who plan to attend part 3 should try to watch parts 1 and 2 beforehand if they haven't already done so.
2020-09-02T13:33:21Z Alfr__ makes a note for next week.
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2020-09-02T13:39:26Z mseddon: phoe: I hear you may be able to direct me to the previous two parts?
2020-09-02T13:41:12Z phoe: mseddon: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgq_B39Y_kKD9_sdCeE5SufaeAtbYPv80
2020-09-02T13:46:02Z mseddon: phoe: thanks!
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2020-09-02T13:49:08Z jackdaniel: ah, it is nice to see Common Lisp as one of the recommended languages once in a while
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2020-09-02T13:49:28Z jackdaniel: https://begriffs.com/posts/2020-08-31-portable-stable-software.html < cl is only mentioned once, but for a good reason - it has a standard and multiple implementations
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2020-09-02T13:59:01Z beach: jackdaniel: Interesting.  When I give talks to industry people, I always say something like "A project leader or decision maker who decides to use a language without an independent standard for some project, should be fired."
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2020-09-02T14:08:20Z jackdaniel: I know, I was a bit surprised I've encountered a similar advice from a person who perfers C (and is apparently not part of lisp community)
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2020-09-02T14:17:12Z beach: Sure.  And, although C has a standard, it seems to be evolving regularly.  So some of the advantages are lost.
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2020-09-02T14:28:38Z alandipert: beach when you say that, how is it received?
2020-09-02T14:30:04Z beach: Hard to say.  But I do get invited for new talks after that. :)
2020-09-02T14:30:19Z beach: I don't think there are many decision makers in the audience.
2020-09-02T14:30:25Z beach: Mainly developers.
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2020-09-02T14:31:48Z beach: The main topic of talks where this comes up is "risk analysis", which they don't seem to know what it is, in general.  And choosing a programming language should be a large part of a risk analysis.
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2020-09-02T14:44:37Z mseddon: beach: for example, if you decide to write everything in coffeescript, it's entirely your fault.
2020-09-02T14:45:40Z jmercouris: stakeholders aren't necessarily interested in truth
2020-09-02T14:45:47Z jmercouris: sometimes they are interested in snake oil and silver bullets
2020-09-02T14:46:22Z jmercouris: hence why the message of "all of your inferstructure woes would be solved if you rewrote everything in X on this new Y framework" is so appealing
2020-09-02T14:47:04Z mseddon: and so, on cue, every decade or so we get bored, change everything and throw the baby out with the bathwater :(
2020-09-02T14:47:18Z jmercouris: that's not true
2020-09-02T14:47:20Z jmercouris: consider x86
2020-09-02T14:47:37Z mseddon: well sure, hardware-wise, less so.
2020-09-02T14:48:17Z mseddon: but if there was one enormous rug to pull, cpu architecture would be it.
2020-09-02T14:49:27Z mseddon: I'm somewhat biased, I work a lot in web development, and the churn there is insane.
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2020-09-02T14:52:33Z jmercouris: there are many young people in web development, eager to rewrite the wheel
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2020-09-02T14:53:08Z mseddon: sadly true. often failing to look at what has been solved before.
2020-09-02T14:54:19Z beach: mseddon: I don't care so much about individuals who use whatever language they like for their own private projects.  My talks are about ignorant decision makes who gamble with the future of the company they work for, and therefore also with the future of their staff.
2020-09-02T14:55:23Z beach: *decision makers
2020-09-02T14:56:06Z mseddon: ah, yes, more the CTO who jumps onto the hypetrain and then derails.
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2020-09-02T14:57:06Z beach: That one or his/her project leaders.  I frequently see CTOs in software development who know nothing about software development, and certainly nothing about programming languages.
2020-09-02T14:57:11Z beach: ... or risk analysis.
2020-09-02T14:57:41Z mseddon nods. I've been hired to join suicide marches like that. It is not pretty.
2020-09-02T14:59:56Z beach: I hear things like "let's choose Java because all our developers know it already", which really means that "the cost of training our developers in a different language, or of hiring developers for a better language is known to be higher than the loss of productivity from choosing Java".
2020-09-02T15:01:06Z beach: And I hear "let's choose C++, because we need all the speed we can get", which means "we are willing to spend an arbitrary amount of additional development and maintenance cost, for the tiniest speed improvement".
2020-09-02T15:01:46Z p_l: the java quote is often untrue - as in, there's non-trivial chance the developers know more and would be willing to use more
2020-09-02T15:01:57Z beach: Of course, when you translate it for them, it turns out they know nothing about it.
2020-09-02T15:02:32Z beach: p_l: If it weren't clear, "Java" was just an arbitrary choice in my example.
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2020-09-02T15:03:29Z p_l: beach: the disconnect can be big enough that a reasonably big financial project (mobile payments for Dubai), the manager in charge *finally* understood that they need someone with C++ skills (a big chunk of the code is in C++)... despite the fact that the team was telling them that information for over a month now
2020-09-02T15:03:30Z mseddon: beach: right, and 9 times out of 10, they could have avoided C++ and used OpenCL or such for the critical performance from literally anything, such as python.
2020-09-02T15:03:53Z p_l: mseddon: plz no python, that way lies horrrific unperformance stories >_>
2020-09-02T15:04:12Z mseddon: p_l "Python" was a very specific choice there :)
2020-09-02T15:04:17Z p_l: beach: and I assumed java to be metalingual (snrk) variable :)
2020-09-02T15:05:06Z jmercouris: Nyxt 2 pre-release is out: https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/article/release-2-pre-release-1.org
2020-09-02T15:05:16Z beach: My point is that they may be right in their specific case, but I have yet to see a valid risk analysis that supports their claim.
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2020-09-02T15:05:43Z beach: jmercouris: Congratulations.
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2020-09-02T15:06:08Z jmercouris: beach: thank you!
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2020-09-02T15:07:20Z mseddon: jmercouris: oh, that looks really cool, I must try that out when I  have time
2020-09-02T15:07:36Z jmercouris: :-)
2020-09-02T15:07:43Z beach: One of my favorite industry talks is entirely about the paper by Hudak and Jones: "Haskell vs Ada vs ...".  That paper was written by Haskell proponents of course, but Haskell is not the message in my talk.  The message is that the programming language might very well make a difference to productivity, and the difference in productivity might very well dwarf the cost of training staff.
2020-09-02T15:09:27Z mseddon: jmercouris: you have swappable browser engines? that is *extremely* cool :D
2020-09-02T15:11:18Z p_l: beach: I might have mentioned it already, but I've heard in at least one place that a company decided to use Common Lisp *because the number of programmers was lower*
2020-09-02T15:11:35Z p_l: and the quality of applicants was raised because of this
2020-09-02T15:12:19Z p_l: which is a very interesting effect impacting both productivity of the team (separate from language) and effort required from other parts of the company
2020-09-02T15:12:21Z beach: Interesting.
2020-09-02T15:13:15Z p_l: their specific comparison was Common Lisp vs Python
2020-09-02T15:13:22Z p_l: Python meant *lots* of applicants
2020-09-02T15:13:27Z beach: Heh, sure.
2020-09-02T15:13:53Z p_l: unfortunately, it also meant that selecting actually experienced applicants was much harder task, *and* they had to deal with "over-confident fresh bootcamp grads"
2020-09-02T15:14:13Z jmercouris: mseddon: yes, indeed
2020-09-02T15:14:19Z jmercouris: mseddon: it was incredibly difficult to do
2020-09-02T15:14:32Z mseddon: jmercouris: I can imagine :)
2020-09-02T15:14:57Z beach: p_l: I suspect the time and energy spent filtering the applicants paid off in productivity.
2020-09-02T15:15:22Z p_l: going for Common Lisp and global recruitement resulted in smaller pool of applicant, but said pool was both easier to check, and had higher selection of actually experienced people who either already knew CL or had experience to learn it quickly
2020-09-02T15:15:42Z jmercouris: that is very true
2020-09-02T15:15:46Z jmercouris: we have had similar experiences
2020-09-02T15:16:27Z p_l: many "bootcamps" are very low quality, and often give inflated expectations (harming the graduates of them, IMO, who can't exactly be faulted for being essentially lied to)
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2020-09-02T15:18:00Z mseddon: p_l: agreed. I have looked at quite a few of these courses, and frankly, the teachers appear to be confused themselves.
2020-09-02T15:18:28Z jmercouris: the first mistake is thinking that engineering == programming
2020-09-02T15:18:32Z p_l: mseddon: I have experience with one course where it was quite obvious the teachers were grabbed without preparation
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2020-09-02T15:18:45Z jmercouris: if you want a programmer, you can hire from a bootcamp, if you want an engineer, you must hire someone who has actually studied more than 1 month
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2020-09-02T15:21:01Z p_l: a bootcamp graduate might be a good intake for a corporation that has proper "internal education" system
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2020-09-02T15:32:29Z mseddon: It is one of those things that I always never understood. Any other engineering discipline requires accreditation. Software is unregulated.
2020-09-02T15:33:05Z mseddon: But your bridge collapsing when I drive my car over it, vs your software leaking my bank details are both pretty serious problems.
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2020-09-02T15:33:51Z beach: It would be good if it required accreditation.  The problem at this time, though, is that it would be very hard to choose the people who would then be charged with the task of granting accreditation.
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2020-09-02T15:34:29Z seok: hello!
2020-09-02T15:34:31Z mseddon: beach: agreed. especially since modern software engineering is so balkanized.
2020-09-02T15:34:34Z beach: Hello seok.
2020-09-02T15:34:38Z seok: hi beach!
2020-09-02T15:34:48Z mseddon: hi seok!
2020-09-02T15:34:52Z seok: hello!
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2020-09-02T15:36:03Z beach: I have seen some presentation about this topic.  Some of them have some good ideas.  For example, it is time we self-regulate.  Because, if we don't, then there will be some catastrophic failure, and then the politicians will step in.  And then, we are in big trouble.
2020-09-02T15:36:15Z heisig: mseddon: The 'problem' is that the demand for software and programmers is enormous, so there is little incentive to become a good programmer.  Contrast that with, e.g., musicians.
2020-09-02T15:36:36Z heisig: Also, this is a #lispcafe discussion, right? :)
2020-09-02T15:36:43Z mseddon: heisig: right ;)
2020-09-02T15:37:44Z seok: sorry if I am interrupting anything, are there any ways to keep track of resources/memory a lisp evaluation is taking up?
2020-09-02T15:37:54Z seok: maybe isolate into a thread and keep track of that thread?
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2020-09-02T15:39:08Z beach: seok: The thread part seems impossible.  If a function or a data structure is used by several threads, which thread does it "belong to"?
2020-09-02T15:39:28Z seok: hm
2020-09-02T15:39:34Z heisig: seok: I'd say use sb-sprof.  It tracks all threads.
2020-09-02T15:39:37Z seok: would it be possible without the isolation part?
2020-09-02T15:39:51Z seok: ah sbcl has a profiler
2020-09-02T15:40:30Z seok: sb-profile?
2020-09-02T15:40:52Z heisig: seok: You should also have a look at the future branch of clim.flamegraph: https://github.com/scymtym/clim.flamegraph/tree/future
2020-09-02T15:41:15Z seok: Nice thank you
2020-09-02T15:41:23Z heisig: This is my favorite tool for profiling.  The README also describes how to use sb-sprof.
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2020-09-02T15:43:13Z p_l: mseddon: the thing is, software engineering *is* accredited. It's just that a case of weasel-wording (as the proper engineer title might be slightly different than you expect) and engineer-as-role != engineer-as-person
2020-09-02T15:44:13Z p_l: mseddon: so, for example, in UK you can become Chartered Engineer in computing. This requires presenting skills regarding taking a project from start to end with all the bells&whistles, iirc.
2020-09-02T15:44:35Z p_l: and is administered and managed by British Computing Society, acting as "guild" for Engineering in IT
2020-09-02T15:45:04Z mseddon: p_l: right. but e.g. anyone can build any software that people use. one is REQUIRED to be chartered to build a bridge for public use. So the title is somewhat defanged, legally.
2020-09-02T15:45:07Z dlowe: it's not real accreditation until there are laws preventing you from working if you're not accredited
2020-09-02T15:45:31Z mseddon: dlowe: exactly.
2020-09-02T15:45:47Z seok: ooh are you discussing whether programmers should be accredited?
2020-09-02T15:45:52Z seok: like chartered accountants?
2020-09-02T15:45:56Z p_l: I've had a case where titled engineer had to sign off on things, but it was a bit BS due to how the specific title is acquired in Poland
2020-09-02T15:46:16Z p_l: dlowe: the thing is is that laws don't prevent you from working without accreditation even in civil engineering
2020-09-02T15:46:24Z seok: same for accounting!
2020-09-02T15:46:26Z dlowe: despite its relevance to lisp programmers, I'd like to take this to some other channel
2020-09-02T15:46:31Z p_l: dlowe: they require that an accredited engineer take /responsibility/ for it
2020-09-02T15:46:34Z seok: but you get the prestige from accredation
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2020-09-02T15:49:38Z mseddon: p_l: right, that's a good point. But at least someone is legally making themselves accountable.
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2020-09-02T15:52:09Z mseddon: so e.g. the CTO at least ought to be chartered.
2020-09-02T15:52:45Z mseddon: and hence, selected not to make terrible decisions that would either impact the company, or it's customers. or just random bystanders.
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2020-09-02T15:55:05Z seok: "terrible decisions that would impact company or its customers" is rather a broad concept in programming though
2020-09-02T15:55:26Z seok: miscalculations or misjudgements in engineering is relatively simpler to recognise
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2020-09-02T15:55:42Z seok: programs that would have undesired consequences however...
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2020-09-02T18:22:07Z gendl: Hi, I'm aware of a job opening which can involve some CL/GDL programming. But the main entry point is web front-end application maintenance so they are seeking 2+ years of PHP and 2+ years of JS with React or similar.  Message me directly if you'd like more details.
2020-09-02T18:23:09Z dlowe: CL/GDL?
2020-09-02T18:23:50Z gendl: Common Lisp and Genworks GDL (which is based on [gendl](https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/gendl/gendl.git) )
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2020-09-02T18:28:38Z dlowe: gendl: no content on gen.works? :(
2020-09-02T18:29:11Z gendl: oh. heh. hrmph.  Is that URL in the readme ?
2020-09-02T18:29:21Z dlowe: it is.  I found your genworks.com site
2020-09-02T18:29:31Z dlowe: could add a redirect
2020-09-02T18:29:44Z gendl: indeed. gen.works should point to there. Thanks for the catch.
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2020-09-02T20:18:30Z gendl: dlowe: that should be fixed now.
2020-09-02T20:19:13Z gendl: thanks again 🙏🏻.
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2020-09-03T00:59:46Z Bike: ::notify phoe why does pitman's handler-case impl (and by extension yours) get out of the handler functions with a tagbody, instead of just immediately doing the return-from?
2020-09-03T00:59:46Z Colleen: Bike: Got it. I'll let phoe know as soon as possible.
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2020-09-03T03:14:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-03T05:35:39Z markasoftware: am I allowed to modify a variable during (loop) iteration, eg, (loop for blah on my-list do (setf blah something))
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2020-09-03T05:39:26Z White_Flame: markasoftware: sure
2020-09-03T05:39:43Z White_Flame: the loop stepping & termination conditions simply work on the value that's there, no matter how it got there
2020-09-03T05:42:14Z White_Flame: for loop for blah IN my-list, though, I don't think the cons stepping variable is exposed, but for for-ON whatever's in BLAH will have its cdr as the next iteration
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2020-09-03T06:22:11Z markasoftware: awesome
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2020-09-03T07:15:42Z phoe: ::notify Bike What do you mean? You cannot do RETURN-FROM in this case; you need to jump from the respective handler function to the respective handler case, and from the handler case you can perform a RETURN-FROM.
2020-09-03T07:15:42Z Colleen: phoe: Got it. I'll let Bike know as soon as possible.
2020-09-03T07:16:15Z phoe: do I get the notification now?
2020-09-03T07:16:15Z Colleen: phoe: Bike said 6 hours, 16 minutes ago: why does pitman's handler-case impl (and by extension yours) get out of the handler functions with a tagbody, instead of just immediately doing the return-from?
2020-09-03T07:16:20Z phoe: Colleen: thank you
2020-09-03T07:16:20Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, grant, time, tell, set, say, mop, get, have a, block,
2020-09-03T07:16:23Z phoe: :(
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2020-09-03T07:46:15Z phoe: ::notify Bike This is required because you first need to transfer control out of whatever place you are executing, and only then execute the handler case. If you want to first execute the handler stuff and only then leave control, see test-1 and test-2 in https://github.com/phoe/tclcs-code/blob/master/98-handler-bind-case/clcs-98-handler-bind-case.lisp
2020-09-03T07:46:16Z Colleen: phoe: Got it. I'll let Bike know as soon as possible.
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2020-09-03T13:20:52Z Bike: phoe: second note made me understand, thank you
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2020-09-03T16:32:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is minion gone?
2020-09-03T16:32:58Z beach: minion: Are you gone?
2020-09-03T16:32:59Z minion: maybe
2020-09-03T16:33:19Z fiddlerwoaroof was confused by Colleen being used for memos here...
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2020-09-03T17:31:46Z phoe: Bike: no problem
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2020-09-03T17:40:04Z pve: any juicy tips on how to refactor a CL application? pitfalls etc
2020-09-03T17:40:16Z johnjay: >refactor
2020-09-03T17:40:21Z johnjay: wait what. i thought that was a java thing
2020-09-03T17:40:27Z Bike: no?
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2020-09-03T17:40:37Z Bike: it's just a word
2020-09-03T17:41:04Z pve: i mean tidy up the code without changing functionality
2020-09-03T17:41:19Z pve: to make it easier to add feature in the future
2020-09-03T17:41:27Z johnjay: idk. get rid of empty lines and printf statements?
2020-09-03T17:41:40Z Bike: no, rearranging the internals of the system to clean it up
2020-09-03T17:41:50Z Bike: i don't think i have any cl specific advice though
2020-09-03T17:42:57Z pve: Bike: a practical thing I often wonder is, how big should packages be
2020-09-03T17:45:13Z pve: it's hard for me to get it right, it seems
2020-09-03T17:48:57Z mseddon: hmm, how can I add a new, completely empty dispatching macro character according to the ANSI spec from a virgin lisp world? It seems to me that I'd have to first (set-syntax-from-char #\# #\PlaceholderCharacter), and then remove all the dispatch macro characters that are default, but that is silly.
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2020-09-03T17:49:29Z Bike: mseddon: make-dispatch-macro-character, i believe
2020-09-03T17:49:51Z mseddon: Bike: doh, I knew I was being stupid. Thanks ;)
2020-09-03T17:50:54Z mseddon: readtables are quite ornamental :)
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2020-09-03T18:01:55Z aeth: pve: one refactoring pitfall is that you could be calling a stale version of a function after you rename it because the old function object at the old name will still exist, even if you rename and start redefining parts of the new one. So you could accidentally have two bugs (mistaken refactoring of the function that doesn't preserve behavior that isn't detected yet, and calling the old function that still behaves the old way until you rest
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2020-09-03T18:02:08Z aeth: restart)
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2020-09-03T18:03:18Z aeth: pve: e.g. (defun foobar (x) (1+ x)) then rename it to (defun foo (x) (+ 2 x)) but if you forget to change the caller, you (1) won't get any errors until you restart since the old #'foobar still exists and (2) won't notice that you're adding two instead of 1 in your refactor until you fix this first problem
2020-09-03T18:03:46Z aeth: (obviously, with such a trivial example, it's clear FOOBAR and FOO do different things)
2020-09-03T18:04:17Z aeth: More likely, you'll change some but not all of the callers.
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2020-09-03T18:06:51Z aeth: You can hopefully catch this if you restart your Lisp (e.g. for slime M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp) and quickload with :verbose t (which unfortunately is quite verbose) to see errors/warnings/etc. (I think calling an undefined function is a warning in SBCL, but it might be a style warning.)
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2020-09-03T18:09:19Z aeth: I personally do (ql:quickload :uiop) (ql:quickload :foo :verbose t) because UIOP is very noisy in SBCL because quickloading it redefines every single function (to upgrade from the built-in UIOP to the latest)
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2020-09-03T18:20:10Z jackdaniel: (defun foobar (x) (1+ x)) (setf (fdefinition 'foo) #'foobar)
2020-09-03T18:21:14Z jackdaniel: not the best solution, because 1. foo could have been inlined, 2. further redefinitions will require "remembering" the old name to change a definition
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2020-09-03T18:22:01Z jackdaniel: so maybe (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (lambda (&rest args) (warn "foo called") (apply #'foobar  args)))
2020-09-03T18:22:41Z aeth: yes, but quickloading with :verbose t will warn you when foo is called at quickload time, if the implementation warns on undefined functions
2020-09-03T18:23:06Z aeth: but that would require first restarting or unbinding the function you just renamed.
2020-09-03T18:24:25Z aeth: s/restarting or/restarting, or/
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2020-09-03T18:35:20Z pve: aeth: thanks, that's good advice
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2020-09-03T18:38:18Z pve: aeth: I've been hit by that so many times I now run my tests in a loop in a shell in a fresh image
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2020-09-03T18:47:00Z pve: although the project I'm thinking of refactoring is decently sized so I'm not sure how well the "clean compile + test" loop would work in practice
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2020-09-03T19:59:59Z aeth: I set a rule for myself that I must M-x s-r-i-lisp and quickload verbosely and run any unit tests (if there are any) before pushing to the git origin. And on a few of the occasions where I've broken this rule, I've pushed broken builds. Now, of course, this won't catch every refactoring error, but it will catch the ones that the CI process will also catch.
2020-09-03T20:00:04Z aeth: But jackdaniel pointed out some other solutions that will address this particular issue without restarting... Although, I think maybe uninterning so it shows up as an undefined function and requickloading might work. Maybe.
2020-09-03T20:00:08Z aeth: Inlining in general is pretty complicated.
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2020-09-03T20:00:48Z aeth: I'm not sure if there's a way to detect stale macros and inline functions in the callers of something that has now been redefined.
2020-09-03T20:01:01Z aeth: pve: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1599163199#1599163199
2020-09-03T20:02:16Z aeth: I think in general, if you think inlining/macros are involved, you probably should requickload and hopefully ASDF handles the redefinitions properly, at least if you redefined via changing the source rather than directly in the REPL
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2020-09-03T20:07:10Z aeth: For refactoring, there are two complicating factors that I'm aware of if you want to redefine things. Redefining packages (e.g. no longer importing something that used to be imported; adding imports is fine) and redefining structs (afaik this is because accessors might be optimized, so the inlining problem comes up again). These are the ones that SBCL sort of complains about. There might be others that are permitted by the standard.
2020-09-03T20:08:25Z aeth: And on implementations complaining about something, you have to test in CCL after refactoring because a lot of refactoring is doing things like moving things into constants, and CCL is picky about when its constants are evaluated, requiring you to EVAL-WHEN some DEFCONSTANTs.
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2020-09-03T20:21:23Z pve: aeth: I'm ashamed to admit I restart my repl probably more often than most, I even have a key bound to starting a new repl and loading a session file
2020-09-03T20:22:27Z aeth: This is why I find it amusing when people don't think about the necessity of inferior-lisps in their CL Emacs clone designs. Nope, you'd still need one.
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2020-09-03T20:23:25Z pve: and I often have this tool running in the background: https://github.com/pve1/system-watcher
2020-09-03T20:23:34Z pve: in a terminal
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2020-09-03T20:27:23Z aeth: My tests would take too long, probably.
2020-09-03T20:27:39Z aeth: I save practically every keystroke, and tests could take up to minutes. They probably all should, but I don't test enough.
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2020-09-03T20:29:48Z pve: hmm yeah I save all the time too, and the feedback isn't instantaneous if there's lots of tests, but saving a file won't interrupt an already started test run
2020-09-03T20:30:20Z pve: so I just like check the terminal every once in a while
2020-09-03T20:31:35Z pve: I would have liked to have a red/green indicator in the emacs modeline, but don't know how to do it
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2020-09-03T20:33:36Z aeth: Personally, I'd just have it retest every $interval as long as it has been modified, where $interval depends on the project (a huge library with lots of long tests vs. a tiny library with instantly-running tests)
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2020-09-03T20:36:13Z pve: that would definitely work too
2020-09-03T20:37:16Z aeth: You could even determine it auotmatically based on the first successful run of the tests, although some tests are rather random.
2020-09-03T20:38:13Z aeth: So e.g. retest every 5x the expected test length if it's short (e.g. 1 minute tests means retest 5 minutes) or 2x (e.g. 20 minute tests means every 40 minutes) if it's long, with a minimum of 5 minutes wait
2020-09-03T20:38:21Z pve: although simple, but annoying breakage like fuzzing with package exports gets caught while loading the lib/app, before the tests even run
2020-09-03T20:38:36Z pve: i mean tweaking exported symbols an such
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2020-09-03T20:42:41Z pve: your approach is much simpler to implement, because getting asdf to tell me which files belong to a system and messing with inotify isn't very fun
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2020-09-03T20:46:04Z pve: but I used to dread doing package work, like splitting a package up into smaller packages, or moving stuff from one package to another, or just renaming things
2020-09-03T20:46:16Z pve: but having that tool took the dread away
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2020-09-03T20:49:38Z pve: (btw I'm not saying "use my tool", because it's quite ad-hoc)
2020-09-03T20:50:03Z pve: rather, write a better one :)
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2020-09-03T23:25:38Z jason_m: Is there a simple way to build a wrapper around a function with optional arguments, preserving the lambda list and leaving the handling of optional arguments to the underlying function?
2020-09-03T23:25:39Z jason_m: E.g. I have a function (foo a b c &optional d e) and I want to write a wrapper around it with the same lambda list, (bar a b c &optional d e). bar should supply the argument d (or e) to foo IFF d (or e) was passed to bar. The best I can come up with is using supplied-p-parameters, but that feels verbose and tedious.
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2020-09-03T23:37:23Z White_Flame: &rest and apply do contain that behavior, but yeah, they don't expose the same lambda list
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2020-09-03T23:41:18Z jason_m: Yes that could work, but I'd lose the lambda list.
2020-09-03T23:42:13Z White_Flame: and of course, only macros have &whole
2020-09-03T23:42:39Z jason_m: I was just reading about &whole. I've never used it before.
2020-09-03T23:43:02Z White_Flame: if (defun bar (a b c &rest opts &optional d e) ...) were defined such that OPTS would encompass all the remaining params, that would help as well
2020-09-03T23:43:12Z White_Flame: but that's not allowed
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2020-09-03T23:45:30Z phoe: jason_m: you could try trivial-arguments to fetch the lambda list
2020-09-03T23:45:32Z White_Flame: however, (defun bar (a b c &rest opts &key d e) ...) does work to encapsulate the keyword args, just not optional
2020-09-03T23:45:56Z White_Flame: I don't know why the distinction was made, probably optimization or something
2020-09-03T23:45:58Z phoe: and then use COMPILE or COERCE FUNCTION to build your wrapper function object
2020-09-03T23:47:37Z phoe: I mean, a combo of TRIVIAL-ARGUMENTS:ARGLIST + ALEXANDRIA:PARSE-ORDINARY-LAMBDA-LIST should be capable of constructing your wrapper lambda form
2020-09-03T23:47:58Z jason_m: phoe: I know the lambda list. My questions is more about how to call the underlying function.
2020-09-03T23:48:09Z phoe: oooh
2020-09-03T23:48:28Z phoe: I don't think that you can work around supplied-p in an easy way.
2020-09-03T23:48:40Z phoe: sounds like a task for a helper macro/function of some sorts.
2020-09-03T23:49:04Z White_Flame: the runtime overhead also is kind of dumb with those types of workarounds, even if hidden under macroexpansion
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2020-09-03T23:49:49Z White_Flame: but switching to keyword params would likely still be direct and reasonable, if you can change your protocol
2020-09-03T23:51:38Z jason_m: Appreciate the tips. I'll have to play around a bit. But I wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking anything obvious :)
2020-09-03T23:53:51Z jason_m: I'm trying to build a wrapper around a DB library. The underlying library's function for making a connection takes several optional args, like port for example. One solution for port would be that I define my own default and always explicitly pass port. I don't like that because I think it can be confusing. I'd much rather not pass port on if I didn't get it, and let the underlying library's default values apply.
2020-09-03T23:55:30Z jason_m: Using supplied-p will get the job done. It just might get a little unwieldy.
2020-09-03T23:56:50Z White_Flame: in my opinion, losing the lambda list is not that big a deal.  Just requires using documentation instead of the emacs minibuffer hint
2020-09-03T23:57:10Z White_Flame: (unless of course you rely on introspecting the lambda list and doing something funky, of course)
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2020-09-03T23:58:17Z White_Flame: (defun wrapped-foo (a b &rest c-d-e) (apply #'foo a b c-d-e)) is a readability hack for that
2020-09-03T23:59:08Z jason_m: Oh I like that, seems like a reasonable compromise
2020-09-03T23:59:51Z White_Flame: of course, it doesn't reflect any future changes of foo's underlying parameters, but with library usage that should be pretty stable anyway
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2020-09-04T00:01:23Z jason_m: Yes, if  foo (the library) changes, I'll have to update my code. Not too worried about that.
2020-09-04T00:04:34Z White_Flame: I think it is a fairly open problem, though.
2020-09-04T00:04:52Z White_Flame: lots of code has &optional (foo *default-foo*) scattered in multiple layers of calls
2020-09-04T00:05:06Z White_Flame: instead of applying the default just where it's used
2020-09-04T00:05:26Z White_Flame: javascript actually handles this somewhat sanely with undefined vs null
2020-09-04T00:05:36Z White_Flame: (as surprising as that is for that language)
2020-09-04T00:08:40Z White_Flame: but you can't pass a runtime supplied-p parameter value in CL
2020-09-04T00:09:14Z White_Flame: (or the logical equivalent, however that might hypothetically be)
2020-09-04T00:11:41Z jason_m: Seems like maybe one could write a function that takes some kind of argument and value list... maybe an alist or a property list, and a lambda-list, and sorts it out returning a list matching the lambda list for the given arguments.
2020-09-04T00:12:35Z jason_m: But for now I'm going to use the (foo a b &rest c-d-e) approach you suggested to keep moving.
2020-09-04T00:13:12Z White_Flame: yep
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2020-09-04T03:33:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-04T03:40:31Z rig0rmor_: (wave)
2020-09-04T03:40:35Z iissaacc: sup beach
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2020-09-04T03:43:27Z beach: rig0rmor_: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
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2020-09-04T03:48:01Z rig0rmor_: yep :)
2020-09-04T03:48:35Z beach: Great!  What brings you to #lisp?
2020-09-04T03:48:41Z rig0rmor_: a fairly new lisper as well, new enough to still be going through SICP right now
2020-09-04T03:48:52Z beach: Hmm, OK.
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2020-09-04T03:49:32Z rig0rmor_: in general have a fairly new relationship with lisp and have been doing down the rabbit hole a bit
2020-09-04T03:49:41Z beach: I suppose you know that SICP is based on Scheme and #lisp is dedicated to Common Lisp?  Though some people follow SICP but do the exercises in Scheme.
2020-09-04T03:49:59Z beach: Er,
2020-09-04T03:50:11Z beach: Some people do the exercises in Common Lisp, I mean.
2020-09-04T03:50:14Z rig0rmor_: yes! I started playing around with common lisp as well (using sbcl)
2020-09-04T03:50:23Z beach: I see.
2020-09-04T03:51:00Z aeth: You're using Common Lisp? But I thought you said you were a newLISPer?
2020-09-04T03:51:07Z rig0rmor_: hah
2020-09-04T03:52:54Z beach: rig0rmor_: Also, you need to know that SICP is for teaching people about general principles of how programming works.  But nobody writes code like that in practice.
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2020-09-04T03:53:27Z rig0rmor_: for sure - I've skimmed practical common lisp as well
2020-09-04T03:53:58Z rig0rmor_: I think I'm mostly exploring an interest in programming language theory, and compilers at the lower-level of that spectrum
2020-09-04T03:54:18Z beach: Excellent choices!
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2020-09-04T03:57:23Z beach: rig0rmor_: And Common Lisp is an excellent choice for programming-language design.  It was designed by some very smart and very knowledgeable people.  They were able to push the language very far, while remaining withing the boundary that still makes it possible to write compilers that generate fast code.
2020-09-04T03:57:56Z beach: Most languages fail in either one or the other or both those aspects.
2020-09-04T03:58:05Z rig0rmor_: yeah, it's been fun trying to grok the sbcl codebase too
2020-09-04T03:58:34Z beach: I might have chosen a word different than "fun" for that. :)
2020-09-04T03:58:53Z rig0rmor_: that's a little encouraging then hah
2020-09-04T04:00:03Z beach: If you want a more, how should I say this, "orthogonal" code base, you may want to look into SICL, though, the system does not exist yet, in that there is no native executable to run.
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2020-09-04T04:00:49Z beach: minion: Please tell rig0rmor_ about SICL.
2020-09-04T04:00:50Z minion: rig0rmor_: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2020-09-04T04:01:51Z beach: Of course, you caught me during a major modification of many parts of the code base.  We are extracting the management of global environments to a separate library, and we changed the signatures of all the generic functions in the process.
2020-09-04T04:01:56Z rig0rmor_: ahh robert has a series of videos on this on youtube I think?
2020-09-04T04:01:57Z beach: So it's a mess right now.
2020-09-04T04:02:19Z beach: The "Creating a Common Lisp Implementation" series?
2020-09-04T04:02:19Z rig0rmor_: all in my queue right now
2020-09-04T04:02:23Z rig0rmor_: yep!
2020-09-04T04:02:24Z beach: That's more general.
2020-09-04T04:02:28Z rig0rmor_: ah okay
2020-09-04T04:02:47Z beach: I mean, I will end up with SICL in the end, but I am starting off with simpler stuff. :)
2020-09-04T04:03:14Z rig0rmor_: awesome thanks for sharing the repo!
2020-09-04T04:03:28Z beach: Sure.  If you have questions, we hang out in #sicl.
2020-09-04T04:04:13Z rig0rmor_: sweet
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2020-09-04T04:10:29Z beach: rig0rmor_: Oh, and #sicl seems to be the preferred hangout for people interested in all kinds of aspects of implementing not only SICL, and not only Common Lisp, but Lisp in general.
2020-09-04T04:11:04Z rig0rmor_: neat, joined :)
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2020-09-04T04:20:57Z johnjay: beach: SICL isn't a bad name.
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2020-09-04T04:21:35Z johnjay: is the motivation to not have to use version 1.2 to compile 1.3 to compile 1.4 but just compile everything from a base source?
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2020-09-04T04:31:26Z beach: johnjay: Thanks.  Thanks to phoe, it now means "SICL Implements Common Lisp".
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2020-09-04T04:32:39Z beach: johnjay: The entire system should be possible to build using any ANSI-conforming Common Lisp implementation plus the "Closer MOP" library.
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2020-09-04T05:05:39Z markasoftware: any good RNG libraries that take an integer seed, so I can persist the seed to a file?
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2020-09-04T05:21:13Z Alfr: markasoftware, if you only want to save and restore it, then you may simply print a random-state and read it back.
2020-09-04T05:21:43Z Alfr: May or may not work across implementations though.
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2020-09-04T06:27:52Z phoe: s/may or may not/will not/
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2020-09-04T06:32:01Z pumpknckl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXsVWwPa7bc
2020-09-04T06:32:09Z pumpknckl: to have bill gosper call you 'turing smart' is impressive.
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2020-09-04T07:02:58Z Alfr: phoe, okay. I was only paraphrasing the spec.
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2020-09-04T07:09:34Z phoe: yes, that is correct
2020-09-04T07:10:00Z phoe: though I don't know a single pair of implementations whose random states are interexchangeable
2020-09-04T07:10:11Z phoe: maybe Clasp and ECL, but I am not a Clasp user
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2020-09-04T07:48:21Z beach: phoe: When do you plan to schedule the next online Lisp meeting?  I prefer Wednesday to Monday, but if push comes to shove, Monday works as well.
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2020-09-04T07:49:30Z phoe: beach: oh snap, I knew that I forgot to do something. I'll announce it today.
2020-09-04T07:49:41Z phoe: Wednesday sounds good.
2020-09-04T07:49:41Z beach: Oh, heh!
2020-09-04T07:49:44Z beach: Great!
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2020-09-04T10:29:07Z phoe: beach: I have an unexpected possible collision since one person that I didn't expect to reply to my mail replied sooner than I thought.
2020-09-04T10:29:16Z phoe: But I'll wait for yet another mail reply and then figure things out.
2020-09-04T10:32:36Z phoe: How long will be your talk?
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2020-09-04T12:25:35Z beach: phoe: Hard to say.  Definitely less than an hour.  But we can change days if you like.
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2020-09-04T12:38:42Z phoe: I am thinking right now
2020-09-04T12:38:58Z phoe: Basically I unexpectedly got a pair of hour-long talks for this next meeting
2020-09-04T12:39:23Z beach: I am flexible.  Anything except Monday morning works.  Or even the following week.
2020-09-04T12:39:32Z phoe: And now I need to figure out whether we want to accomodate both and have a 2.5h+ long meeting or whether we want to split that
2020-09-04T12:39:53Z beach: I can wait.
2020-09-04T12:39:54Z phoe: And I'm partial towards the other approach, which means that one of them will happen e.g. a week later
2020-09-04T12:40:26Z beach: Why don't you give some priority to those other talks.
2020-09-04T12:40:33Z beach: I am absolutely in no rush.
2020-09-04T12:40:42Z beach: I can wait two weeks if you like.
2020-09-04T12:41:08Z phoe: OK - thanks a million. I'll schedule yours on Wednesday 16th 13:00 CEST - is that OK?
2020-09-04T12:41:20Z phoe: I'd schedule it on 23rd but I might be unable to stream then
2020-09-04T12:41:28Z phoe: Hence only a week of delay between thet wo.
2020-09-04T12:41:30Z phoe: the two.
2020-09-04T12:41:41Z beach: Sounds good to me.
2020-09-04T12:41:45Z phoe: OK
2020-09-04T12:41:50Z phoe: time to prepare the announcements then
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2020-09-04T12:44:12Z ldbeth: good evening
2020-09-04T12:46:29Z beach: Hello ldbeth.
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2020-09-04T14:37:31Z Xach: I don't understand the failure in http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-09-04/failure-report/climacs.html#climacs at all
2020-09-04T14:37:39Z Xach: Who loves climacs and can figure it out?
2020-09-04T14:40:24Z beach: That looks like something resulting from recent changes in McCLIM.
2020-09-04T14:40:45Z beach: Maybe jackdaniel or scymtym can figure it out.
2020-09-04T14:40:47Z scymtym: Xach: i ran into that by accident yesterday. i believe this is stale/broken code in climacs which McCLIM now detects
2020-09-04T14:40:52Z scymtym: jackdaniel: ^
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2020-09-04T14:41:46Z jackdaniel: I've opened the offending file a moment ago
2020-09-04T14:41:50Z beach: We really should get Second Climacs up and running.  *sigh* so much to do, so little time.
2020-09-04T14:43:11Z scymtym: jackdaniel: i think LISP-STRING used to be defined as a presentation type but was removed at some point. there are two or three other instances
2020-09-04T14:44:37Z jackdaniel was trying to be quiet, because he doesn't love climacs :)
2020-09-04T14:44:45Z Xach: wise
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2020-09-04T14:50:46Z jackdaniel: indeed, mcclim is more strict and detected a bug in climacs
2020-09-04T14:51:01Z jackdaniel: it defined commands specialized on presentation types, but the symbols were not imported
2020-09-04T14:51:18Z jackdaniel: so it was trying to define things on symbols which were not designating presentations
2020-09-04T14:52:17Z jackdaniel: Xach: please pull now
2020-09-04T14:52:21Z jackdaniel: (climacs, not mcclim)
2020-09-04T14:54:10Z _death: apparently (uiop:define-package #:foo (:import-from #:ajhasdjhas/asdjhasdjas)) where the import-from package does not exist, does not signal an error :/
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2020-09-04T15:00:41Z phoe: _death: likely it gets optimized away
2020-09-04T15:00:54Z phoe: it should check for that package's existence though
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2020-09-04T15:01:28Z Xach: especially if the define-package form is generated by a macro or other code
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2020-09-04T15:03:34Z _death: since I use package-inferred-systems it actually should've loaded the appropriate system, but it didn't.. quickloading it worked.. so I'd say something's fishy
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2020-09-04T15:04:56Z _death: it did load another system with a very similar name.. a/b/c/foo loaded and a/b/c/bar was not.. very strange
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2020-09-04T15:06:35Z _death: on the other hand, it's sbcl 1.3.10 so could use an update
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2020-09-04T15:12:05Z _death: and it seems new sbcl wants new gcc..
2020-09-04T15:16:17Z _death: (removing the -Wimplicit-fallthrough option worked)
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2020-09-04T15:25:11Z contrapunctus: Trying to decide on a parser generator library...I've tried esrap, I like the API, but the benchmarks on the MaxPC blog say it's significantly inefficient; MaxPC is AGPL; for some indescribable reason I find smug's API and documentation impenetrable 😔
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2020-09-04T15:30:13Z _death: oh, I screwed up the :import-from.. had (:import-from :package1 :package2) instead of two :import-from clauses
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2020-09-04T17:48:36Z jasom: contrapunctus: if you backtrack alot, esrap will be fast, if you backtrack rarely, it will be slow.  I wrote an esrap parser for json and then basically the identical code as a recursive-descent parser and the latter was faster just because there was no backtracking.  On the other hand I did a parser for restructured-text tables with a monadic parser and esrap beat the pants off of it, because it
2020-09-04T17:48:39Z jasom: spent 99% of the time backtracking.
2020-09-04T17:52:43Z jasom: contrapunctus: aren't smug and MaxPC very similar interfaces?  They are both monadic parsers.
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2020-09-04T18:12:31Z contrapunctus: jasom: thanks for telling me about the effect of backtracking on performance; I'll try to analyze how often the language I'm trying to implement requires it, and keep it in mind when choosing a library.
2020-09-04T18:13:29Z jasom: contrapunctus: I mostly use esrap unless I know parsing will impact performance of the system, fwiw
2020-09-04T18:13:39Z jasom: or if I need inputs other than strings
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2020-09-04T18:43:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: contrapunctus: I wrote a parser for EDN with smug, and it was fast enough but significantly slower than Clojure's implementation (for $work I have to be able to process EDN files that are 10s of MB)
2020-09-04T18:44:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: The interface isn't horrible, if you know a little about parser-combinators :)
2020-09-04T18:44:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, like many libraries, documentation wasn't a priority :)
2020-09-04T18:46:19Z fiddlerwoaroof is havign weird issues with emacs allocating and never gcing like 10GB of memory
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2020-09-04T18:47:17Z edgar-rft is luckily not having such problems because he hasn't 10GB of RAM
2020-09-04T18:48:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Emacs takes like 5 minutes to gc that amount of RAM
2020-09-04T18:48:18Z rig0rmortis: fiddlerwoaroof: have you tweaked gc-cons-threshold? I have (setq gc-cons-threshold 50000000) in my init to gc after 50mb
2020-09-04T18:48:32Z edgar-rft: fiddlerwoaroof: your RAM isn't garbage enough
2020-09-04T18:48:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have it to (* 100 1024)
2020-09-04T18:49:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, it's only happened to me with emacs 27
2020-09-04T18:49:32Z rig0rmortis: ah, weird
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2020-09-04T18:53:28Z contrapunctus: fiddlerwoaroof: EDN = Extensible Data Notation?
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2020-09-04T18:53:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, the clojure file format
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2020-09-04T18:54:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you need a textual way to serialize data structures, it's one of the better ones :) Fewer limitations than JSON, less annoying than YAML
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2020-09-04T18:58:50Z contrapunctus: Looks like...s-expressions o.O
2020-09-04T18:59:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, with literals for maps, vectors and sets
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2020-09-04T20:36:09Z pve: _death: a follow-up to my metaclass trouble: it seems your suggestion to have one supermetaclass worked, so big thanks
2020-09-04T20:36:38Z pve: I didn't realise I only needed to define one validate-superclass method
2020-09-04T20:37:07Z pve: just goes to show this stuff is way to meta for me
2020-09-04T20:37:13Z pve: *too
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2020-09-04T22:40:10Z no-defun-allowed: fiddlerwoaroof: If it looks vaguely like s-expressions, could a dispatch table technique work for EDN? That might be faster.
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2020-09-04T22:43:53Z contrapunctus: Trying to understand how to emit the IR for CommonDoc. There is documentation for defining the format as a GF with the associated methods, as well as for constructing a document as CLOS objects, but that seems different from what the Scriba parser does - it returns some plists. I could start trying to replicate its output, but I'd feel more confident if I could see some documentation on this subject...
2020-09-04T22:44:30Z contrapunctus: ...hm, maybe I could go through the CommonDoc sources to understand what it expects 🤔
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2020-09-04T23:51:34Z elioat: does anyone know of a way to "pretty print" an s-expression when it is written to a file? I have a function that saves an s-expression to a file to later read it back
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2020-09-04T23:53:23Z no-defun-allowed: clhs pprint
2020-09-04T23:53:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm
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2020-09-04T23:54:23Z elioat: wicked! thanks so much no-defun-allowed and specbot
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2020-09-04T23:56:12Z elioat: (love to thank a bot)
2020-09-04T23:57:09Z Bike: keep in mind that if you pretty print it it's very possible it can't be read back (by CL:READ)
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2020-09-04T23:59:06Z elioat: that's a good point, Bike thanks! -- I'm thinking that a may actually just have a dump function that is for displaying this data in a human friendly manner, and then keep things as is.
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2020-09-05T03:02:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-05T03:09:24Z iissaacc: howsit my bradas
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2020-09-05T04:37:57Z iissaacc: whats the go-to library for drawing trees/graphs? looked at a bunch i wondered if anyone had any recommendations for something easy to get going with
2020-09-05T04:38:14Z iissaacc: my trees are just your standard s-expr ones
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2020-09-05T04:38:53Z iissaacc: doesnt need to be pretty, just so i can easily see the output of my classification experiments
2020-09-05T04:44:25Z no-defun-allowed: draw-cons-tree is acceptable for text diagrams of lists and atoms.
2020-09-05T04:45:33Z no-defun-allowed: To see a "tree" the way you would expect to see one, you need to tilt your head 45 degrees anti-clockwise (or your monitor 45 degrees clockwise) though.
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2020-09-05T04:54:04Z iissaacc: thanks no-defun-allowed this will do for the time being
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2020-09-05T04:57:22Z aeth: that's a good idea for someone who has a graphics library.
2020-09-05T05:01:58Z no-defun-allowed: zombie-raptor:draw-cons-tree
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2020-09-05T05:22:04Z aeth: in 3D, you have so many options
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2020-09-05T05:31:38Z contrapunctus: So IIUC I can use CommonDoc's document node constructors ( https://commondoc.github.io/docs/nodes.html ) in my parser to emit a tree CommonDoc can read...but I don't understand why Scriba doesn't do that, or what the purpose of the plists it returns is, or where they are documented - https://github.com/CommonDoc/scriba/blob/master/src/parser.lisp
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2020-09-05T05:34:58Z Micky: hi
2020-09-05T05:35:03Z Micky: h r u all?
2020-09-05T05:36:10Z iissaacc: all g brah. havent got out of bed all day
2020-09-05T05:37:56Z Micky: hi iissaacc
2020-09-05T05:37:58Z Micky: h r u
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2020-09-05T05:38:37Z Micky: hi CEnnis91
2020-09-05T05:39:03Z Micky: hi femi
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2020-09-05T06:43:36Z markasoftware: it's ok to modify a string literal (unlike C), right?
2020-09-05T06:43:47Z fe[nl]ix: no
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2020-09-05T06:49:18Z no-defun-allowed: No, it's not okay to modify any literal.
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2020-09-05T07:36:42Z aeth: markasoftware: The most concise way to get a modifiable string out of a literal string is probably to use COPY-SEQ first.
2020-09-05T07:37:43Z aeth: (or SUBSEQ)
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2020-09-05T08:02:51Z contrapunctus: So if I understand correctly, I can use CommonDoc's document node constructors ( https://commondoc.github.io/docs/nodes.html ) in my parser to emit a tree CommonDoc can use...but why doesn't Scriba do that? What is the purpose of the plists it returns? And where they are documented, if at all? 🤔 https://github.com/CommonDoc/scriba/blob/master/src/parser.lisp
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2020-09-05T09:40:43Z no-defun-allowed: If I provide custom initargs in a slot definition, eg (defclass foo () ((bar :on-fire t)) (:metaclass ...)), should I expect effective-slot-definition-class to get that initarg?
2020-09-05T09:41:11Z phoe:  mope effective-slot-definition-class
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2020-09-05T09:41:15Z phoe: uh I mean
2020-09-05T09:41:17Z phoe: mop effective-slot-definition-class
2020-09-05T09:41:17Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/effective-slot-definition-class.html
2020-09-05T09:41:33Z phoe: this one gets initargs
2020-09-05T09:41:38Z phoe: let's look up the protocol
2020-09-05T09:43:07Z phoe: "The initargs argument is the set of initialization arguments and values that will be passed to make-instance when the effective slot definition metaobject is created."
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2020-09-05T09:43:20Z phoe: yes, I assume that :ON-FIRE T will be passed there
2020-09-05T09:43:59Z no-defun-allowed: Well, SBCL and Clozure appear to not pass :on-fire.
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2020-09-05T09:44:18Z phoe: I'
2020-09-05T09:44:19Z phoe: I'll check
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2020-09-05T09:48:27Z phoe: oh, hmmmmm
2020-09-05T09:50:28Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, Clozure only passes the "inbuilt" initargs.
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2020-09-05T09:51:27Z phoe: hold on a second
2020-09-05T09:51:42Z phoe: on SBCL, make-instance signals an error because :ON-FIRE is not a known keyword argument
2020-09-05T09:51:58Z phoe: but then this means that :ON-FIRE should have been passed to e-s-d-c
2020-09-05T09:52:01Z phoe: otherwise this is a MOP violation
2020-09-05T09:52:04Z phoe: that's how I am reading it
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2020-09-05T09:53:35Z no-defun-allowed: I'm going to back out of trying to interpret the MOP, and I'll just restructure this to not use initargs like that.
2020-09-05T09:53:44Z phoe: I mean, uhhhh
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2020-09-05T09:53:53Z phoe: it's possible that this is a bug or something.
2020-09-05T09:53:59Z phoe: beach: what do you think?
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2020-09-05T09:54:21Z beach: Let me read the relevant passages...
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2020-09-05T09:58:28Z no-defun-allowed: But, I would say that if it did pass all the initargs, what would it pass for something like (defclass foo () ((a :on-fire t)) ...) (defclass bar (foo) ((a :on-fire nil)) ...)? Merging values like that makes sense for :initargs, :allocation, and so on, but not arbitrary initargs.
2020-09-05T09:58:32Z beach: I think I agree.
2020-09-05T09:59:35Z beach: no-defun-allowed: That would have to be handled by compute-slots.
2020-09-05T09:59:54Z no-defun-allowed: Right then.
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2020-09-05T10:01:14Z beach: Each DIRECT-SLOT-DEFINITION would have that initarg, and COMPUTE-SLOTS must decide how to take all the DIRECT-SLOT-DEFINITIONs for the same slot and compute an EFFECTIVE-SLOT-DEFINITION.
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2020-09-05T10:08:44Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, I have modified my code to not use different effective slot definition classes, as it would just be a weird way of representing a predicate here.
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2020-09-05T10:09:04Z no-defun-allowed: phoe, beach: Thanks for your interpretations.
2020-09-05T10:10:04Z phoe: I don't understand that just yet then
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2020-09-05T11:56:07Z scymtym: contrapunctus: when tying a parser to a particular result representation, there is often tension between the requirements of further processing steps (often benefit from proper syntax tree with classes and all) on the one hand and simplicity of development, debugging and testing which list-based results provide on the other hand. after a few years, i came up with https://github.com/scymtym/architecture.builder-protocol/ (a variation of
2020-09-05T11:56:07Z scymtym: the well-known builder design pattern) to address that problem
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2020-09-05T17:21:46Z contrapunctus: scymtym: that's true...but in this case, I really don't know what's going on or what's the right way to make a parser emit CommonDoc IR. I guessed there might be something like a "plist-to-commondoc" procedure, but didn't find anything like that either.
2020-09-05T17:22:36Z contrapunctus: Which leaves the 'use constructors' path, and the unresolved mystery of why Scriba emits those plists.
2020-09-05T17:23:24Z contrapunctus: (Or, like, emailing Eudoxia about it. 🤔)
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2020-09-05T19:44:48Z mseddon: contrapunctus: take this REPL. We all believe in you.
2020-09-05T19:44:59Z contrapunctus: lol
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2020-09-05T19:53:09Z AeroNotix: I'm struggling to find docs on how to use .a files with cffi. Can someone point me to the right place, please?
2020-09-05T19:58:31Z mseddon: AeroNotix: Letting people know which operating system you are running under will help here.
2020-09-05T19:58:37Z AeroNotix: mseddon: linux
2020-09-05T19:58:57Z AeroNotix: arm+x86 if that makes any difference, too
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2020-09-05T21:50:22Z AeroNotix: Still struggling with finding information about this.
2020-09-05T21:52:11Z phoe: AeroNotix: I don't know if you can use these; CFFI is capable of linking against shared libraries only, not static ones
2020-09-05T21:52:22Z phoe: so stuff like https://stackoverflow.com/questions/655163/convert-a-static-library-to-a-shared-library would be the proper thing™ to do
2020-09-05T21:52:22Z AeroNotix: phoe: for real? That's a shame.
2020-09-05T21:52:34Z phoe: I mean, I have never seen such a thing
2020-09-05T21:52:35Z AeroNotix: Yeah that's trickier than it sounds for this particular library
2020-09-05T21:52:52Z AeroNotix: but I will continue on in that vein then
2020-09-05T21:52:58Z phoe: I don't know if it's possible to link against a static library dynamically!
2020-09-05T21:53:31Z AeroNotix: Well, I was kinda hoping you could link in the static library through some tool which would wrap it all, very hand-wavey but wondered if possible
2020-09-05T21:53:52Z AeroNotix: sounds like not, so I will work on getting a dynamic library from this static one instead then
2020-09-05T21:53:59Z phoe: that tool is called gcc
2020-09-05T21:54:29Z AeroNotix: well yeah but then I'd have to write a bunch of stuff,.. I was kinda hoping there'd be a tool that existed already which handled this for CL
2020-09-05T21:56:19Z phoe: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2649735/how-to-link-static-library-into-dynamic-library-in-gcc
2020-09-05T21:56:24Z phoe: I don't think this is doable via CL
2020-09-05T21:56:31Z phoe: this is the land of C compiler, or more strictly, C linker.
2020-09-05T21:56:33Z AeroNotix: No, not directly CL no
2020-09-05T21:56:56Z AeroNotix: phoe: not sure if you've actually ran those steps and are just googling :) Not to be rude but I have been looking around since I asked as well :)
2020-09-05T21:57:05Z phoe: :(
2020-09-05T21:57:09Z phoe: yes, I have been just googling
2020-09-05T21:57:26Z phoe: I have come upon this issue a few times in the past though
2020-09-05T21:57:38Z AeroNotix: The library is a bit wonky, there's quite a few libraries it depends on linking with too, it's not just a quick gcc invocation away. Which is why I kept asking about potential other avenues
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2020-09-05T21:57:58Z AeroNotix: But I will continue down the path of getting a shared lib for it, since that's the only one which appears to be available
2020-09-05T21:58:09Z phoe: I remember that _death had an issue with this
2020-09-05T21:58:21Z phoe: in particular I think that some debian package only provided an .a version of some library and not a .so
2020-09-05T21:58:29Z AeroNotix: ugh, why would they do that?
2020-09-05T21:58:31Z phoe: maybe he will have some more practical insight
2020-09-05T21:58:39Z AeroNotix: ok I'll stick around
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2020-09-05T22:04:08Z AeroNotix: eh, I think I just got a shared library any way.
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2020-09-05T22:04:27Z AeroNotix: will see if it even works though :)
2020-09-05T22:04:41Z AeroNotix: Not from the stackoverflow answer
2020-09-05T22:05:07Z AeroNotix: Well, cffi seems to accept it, lets see if I can call a function in there.
2020-09-05T22:05:38Z Bike: as far as i know implementations use dlopen etc under the hood, which isn't going to work with a static library
2020-09-05T22:05:46Z Bike: but i have very little experience with static libraries, so who knows
2020-09-05T22:05:55Z AeroNotix: yeah that makes sense how it would use a shared library as that's pretty much the only way
2020-09-05T22:06:17Z AeroNotix: but I was kinda asking/hoping if there was some interesting project which could take a static library, wrap it, and present it as a shared library
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2020-09-05T22:06:25Z AeroNotix: but appears that's just wishful thinking
2020-09-05T22:06:42Z AeroNotix: you _can_ convert most stuff with just gcc, but this lib seems to be pretty finicky
2020-09-05T22:06:54Z AeroNotix: regardless, I have a shared library now-- on to testing it
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2020-09-05T22:07:45Z Bike: you'd basically have to turn non relocatable code into relocatable code, right? seems uh... difficult
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2020-09-05T22:09:01Z AeroNotix: yes
2020-09-05T22:09:07Z AeroNotix: Wishful thinking of course
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2020-09-05T22:10:51Z AeroNotix: hmm, well... it seems to be calling parts of the functions
2020-09-05T22:11:16Z AeroNotix: the whole reason I am using CL for this is (apart from it obviously being better). Is the library I am wrapping uses a tonne of callbacks, most other languages are such a pain when the C lib uses callbacks heavily.
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2020-09-06T01:35:43Z AeroNotix: % swig -cffi
2020-09-06T01:35:44Z AeroNotix: Target language option -cffi (CFFI) is no longer supported
2020-09-06T01:35:53Z AeroNotix: did swig remove support for cffi then?
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2020-09-06T01:36:00Z AeroNotix: Should I go find an old version?
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2020-09-06T01:38:41Z AeroNotix: https://github.com/swig/swig/commit/264b39fd002563f8aa0f8ddd589e7aab26c835a5
2020-09-06T01:38:43Z AeroNotix: :(
2020-09-06T01:38:57Z AeroNotix: I am sure at some point I used swig to do cffi bindings, must be before they removed it
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2020-09-06T01:40:11Z AeroNotix: What do people use nowadays?
2020-09-06T01:40:40Z AeroNotix: Verrazano looks well complicated for what's needed, maybe just finding crap examples of how to use it
2020-09-06T01:43:33Z no-defun-allowed: CFFI has a "groveller" which sounds useful, but I haven't had to generate FFI bindings before.
2020-09-06T01:44:08Z AeroNotix: I just want to generate a basic set of Lisp functions from a header file
2020-09-06T01:44:13Z AeroNotix: I'll poke around
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2020-09-06T01:44:19Z AeroNotix: verrazano looks baroque
2020-09-06T01:44:34Z AeroNotix: I'll try the groveller
2020-09-06T01:45:15Z AeroNotix: it looks like cffi-groveller is intended to be used with swig...
2020-09-06T01:45:42Z AeroNotix: or maybe not.. still reading
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2020-09-06T07:15:35Z markasoftware: (symbolp nil) is trippy
2020-09-06T07:18:36Z beach: Why?
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2020-09-06T07:19:56Z beach: And, in code, if you want a form that evaluates to the symbol NIL, you should write 'nil.
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2020-09-06T07:25:15Z beach: clhs 1.4.1.4.4
2020-09-06T07:25:15Z specbot: NIL: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_dadd.htm
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2020-09-06T09:05:17Z treflip: Hi! Has anyone used cl-earley-parser? I'm having troubles with parsing words that aren't defined in the lexicon.
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2020-09-06T09:59:52Z iissaacc: any libraries with a util function for currying functions with keyword args? I've written my own but thought it might be better to use a widely used library for readability
2020-09-06T10:00:01Z iissaacc: or is this not generally donw
2020-09-06T10:01:21Z phoe: iissaacc: rcurry
2020-09-06T10:01:30Z phoe: (alexandria:rcurry #'foo :bar baz :quux 42)
2020-09-06T10:01:50Z phoe: that slaps keyword args at the end of the function call
2020-09-06T10:04:48Z iissaacc: chur phoe
2020-09-06T10:05:51Z iissaacc: (= chur cheers)
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2020-09-06T12:43:07Z puchacz: hi, has anybody used plump html parser to convert HTML into (with-output-to-string ...) template using <%= any code %> convention?
2020-09-06T12:44:31Z puchacz: shinmera's plump I mean
2020-09-06T12:46:24Z puchacz: actually it has nothing to do with plump - it has to be done on text level before parsing it to html, having thought of it for a minute
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2020-09-06T15:26:41Z AeroNotix: What's the most ideal way to run a specific function once when my system is initialized?
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2020-09-06T15:26:59Z AeroNotix: e.g. a ffi'd library needs to run a global init function prior to being used.
2020-09-06T15:27:15Z AeroNotix: I can think of a few hundred ways, but wondering if there's a proper built in way for this kind of thing
2020-09-06T15:30:09Z dlowe: puchacz: have you looked at the stencl library?
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2020-09-06T15:30:58Z dlowe: AeroNotix: wrap it in the function that loads the library
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2020-09-06T15:34:05Z AeroNotix: dlowe: well right now I have the cffi just run `use-foreign-library` you're saying that's not a good idea?
2020-09-06T15:34:20Z AeroNotix: any way, not a big deal
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2020-09-06T15:39:00Z dlowe: AeroNotix: Sure, I'm just saying you could wrap that call in with a function that also inits the library
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2020-09-06T15:39:20Z dlowe: so that you don't have to think about it
2020-09-06T15:39:38Z AeroNotix: cool ok, sounds good
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2020-09-06T15:53:58Z TwoNotes: It is not clear to me how to make an advance declaration of a 'labels' function so they can recurseively call each other.
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2020-09-06T15:54:42Z Bike: you don't need to do anything in advance. if they're in the same labels they can call each other.
2020-09-06T15:56:02Z Bike: (labels ((odd-p (n) (even-p (1- n))) (even-p (n) (or (zerop n) (odd-p (1- n))))) (odd-p 7)) => T
2020-09-06T15:58:00Z TwoNotes: Ah, this is different from how defuns work
2020-09-06T15:58:16Z beach: Oh?
2020-09-06T15:58:47Z TwoNotes: If (defun a()) comes after (defun b()) then 'a' can not call 'b'.  No?
2020-09-06T15:58:56Z beach: It can.
2020-09-06T15:58:58Z TwoNotes: wait I have that wrong
2020-09-06T15:59:07Z TwoNotes: Only can make backward references I thought
2020-09-06T15:59:17Z beach: What?
2020-09-06T15:59:30Z beach: What made you think that?
2020-09-06T15:59:40Z TwoNotes: If (defun a) comes before (defun b), can a call b?
2020-09-06T15:59:46Z sjl: Yes.
2020-09-06T15:59:49Z beach: Of course.
2020-09-06T15:59:52Z TwoNotes: (in the same file)
2020-09-06T15:59:53Z beach: Common Lisp is a dynamic language.
2020-09-06T15:59:58Z beach: Even so, yes.
2020-09-06T16:00:13Z TwoNotes: hmm, I must have gotten an error long ago about something else, and had to throw in a (declaim)
2020-09-06T16:00:14Z beach: But you can't call them until the file has been loaded.
2020-09-06T16:00:46Z Bike: you should never have _had_ to add a declaim for something function related
2020-09-06T16:00:50Z beach: TwoNotes: If you LOAD the file rather than compiling it (which you probably shouldn't) you will get a warning that B is not defined.
2020-09-06T16:01:22Z TwoNotes: I must have been doing that in early stages of development
2020-09-06T16:01:25Z beach: TwoNotes: But B will be defined eventually, so then they can call each other.
2020-09-06T16:01:35Z Bike: even a static language could have definitions calling each other throughout a file, if they were less braindead than C
2020-09-06T16:01:47Z TwoNotes: I don't use load any more.  I let ASDF do all the work
2020-09-06T16:02:19Z beach: Then it should all be wrapped in a compilation unit, and you should see no warning.
2020-09-06T16:03:33Z TwoNotes: ok, ty
2020-09-06T16:03:38Z TwoNotes: it is working now
2020-09-06T16:03:51Z beach: yaw
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2020-09-06T17:56:10Z mseddon: beach: interesting, so LOAD will raise warnings because it processes each top-level form in order?
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2020-09-06T18:20:31Z beach: Well, it can.  SBCL does.  I don't think the standard mentions anything about it.
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2020-09-06T18:55:40Z mseddon: beach, right. Because in my toy implementations I defer checking until after LOAD has processed the whole file.
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2020-09-06T19:05:48Z Alfr_: mseddon, beach, ``load sequentially executes each form it encounters in the file [...]''. And then some about top level form when implicit compilation is involved.
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2020-09-06T19:23:29Z Bike: sure, but the implementation doesn't have to issue warnings about undefined functions immediately.
2020-09-06T19:23:38Z Bike: or at all, i don't think
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2020-09-06T20:02:32Z AeroNotix: if a c function wants to take a `void *` for context in a callback. Is it a bad idea to get a pointer to any lisp object and use that? Does the GC guarantee that an object's address doesn't change?
2020-09-06T20:02:58Z AeroNotix: or should I implement the void* context as a key to some map which looks it up- therefore circumventing any issues with the GC relocating objects?
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2020-09-06T20:04:47Z phoe: wait what
2020-09-06T20:04:53Z phoe: for context? what do you mean by context?
2020-09-06T20:05:24Z AeroNotix: A lot of C libraries that you provide callbacks to, will also take a void* which is some arbitrary value that will also be passed to the callback
2020-09-06T20:05:37Z AeroNotix: it's so you can have some state (i.e. context)
2020-09-06T20:05:55Z phoe: oh, so basically, that's arbitrary user-provided data
2020-09-06T20:06:07Z AeroNotix: yeah
2020-09-06T20:06:15Z phoe: do you make any use of that inside the callback? if not, pass a null pointer
2020-09-06T20:06:22Z AeroNotix: I will make use of that inside the callback
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2020-09-06T20:06:38Z phoe: oh, so you need a piece of raw memory that you will operate on in the C world
2020-09-06T20:07:00Z AeroNotix: Well I want it to be a lisp object at some point, whether directly or being able to use the pointer to find that lisp object
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2020-09-06T20:07:30Z phoe: wait a second, manipulating Lisp data in C isn't really something that you would want to do
2020-09-06T20:08:16Z phoe: you could try to allocate a static vector and fill it with your data of choice and grab the vector-sap and pass it that way, but that data is going to be ub8s or something similar
2020-09-06T20:08:45Z Bike: no, the gc does not necessarily guarantee that objects's addresses don't change. your implementation may have a way to "pin" objects to get that guarantee for them in particular.
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2020-09-06T20:09:01Z AeroNotix: I looked up pinning for SBCL, didn't seem like it would be ideal for this
2020-09-06T20:09:30Z phoe: what exactly are you trying to do in the callback?
2020-09-06T20:09:39Z AeroNotix: The callback handles network packets
2020-09-06T20:09:42Z Bike: how is it not ideal? it's what you asked for.
2020-09-06T20:09:56Z AeroNotix: Bike: it looked as if the pinning is tie to the life time of a scope
2020-09-06T20:10:17Z Bike: well, yes. you can't permanently pin objects I don't think.
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2020-09-06T20:10:55Z AeroNotix: phoe: the idea would be that the library calls your callback function when there is data to be sent out. My plan was to make a basic callback function and then the void*/user-data it would contain a method to retrieve an actual lisp function
2020-09-06T20:11:51Z phoe: I am confused now
2020-09-06T20:12:13Z Bike: aeronotix wants to use a closure as a callback.
2020-09-06T20:12:18Z phoe: who calls into C? is the callback provided by you, or already existing? who passes in that void* data and who receives it and who decides what it is and how it should be parsed?
2020-09-06T20:12:19Z AeroNotix: not a closure
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2020-09-06T20:12:37Z Bike: if it's the usual C callback idiom it sounds like a closure to me.
2020-09-06T20:13:01Z Bike: you give it a function pointer and a void*, and then it calls the function pointer with the value you gave it. that's what you do if your language doesn't have closures.
2020-09-06T20:13:10Z AeroNotix: Bike: yes the latter
2020-09-06T20:13:22Z AeroNotix: I wouldn't call that a closure, though
2020-09-06T20:13:24Z AeroNotix: but whatever, semantics.
2020-09-06T20:13:33Z phoe: it isn't a closure in the C world
2020-09-06T20:13:42Z AeroNotix: right
2020-09-06T20:14:01Z phoe: but you can write a Lisp closure and have that called when your defcallback function is created
2020-09-06T20:15:01Z phoe: or, if you call into C and then C calls back into Lisp, you can use dynavars for providing dynamic context
2020-09-06T20:15:20Z Alfr: Bike, that's what they meant. Thanks for the clarification.
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2020-09-06T20:15:44Z AeroNotix: phoe: I can't provide dynamic variables for this
2020-09-06T20:15:56Z AeroNotix: the callbacks will be called whenever and from multiple threads
2020-09-06T20:16:00Z AeroNotix: I don't control that
2020-09-06T20:16:18Z AeroNotix: so I can't bind a dynamic variable hoping that it will be bound properly
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2020-09-06T20:16:38Z AeroNotix: which is why I wanted to use the void* to hold some lisp function and then it will be available all the time every time the callback is called.
2020-09-06T20:16:57Z phoe: you don't need to do that if you define a callback via cffi:defcallback
2020-09-06T20:17:12Z phoe: when control reaches such a callback function then that function has all of Lisp at its disposal
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2020-09-06T20:17:32Z phoe: it can do whatever, intern symbols, find fdefinitions, etc
2020-09-06T20:17:39Z AeroNotix: is there an equivalent of defcallback which doesn't bind the callback to a name?
2020-09-06T20:17:45Z AeroNotix: like an "anonymous" callback
2020-09-06T20:18:43Z natj212_: I'm trying to remember this common lisp macro. It's similar to let but it doesn't evaluate the expression and just stores the expression. I'm trying to avoid copy-pasting aref everywhere
2020-09-06T20:18:52Z natj212_: Does anyone remember this?
2020-09-06T20:19:07Z phoe: natj212_: macrolet?
2020-09-06T20:19:15Z phoe: AeroNotix: I don't know if it's in CFFI
2020-09-06T20:19:30Z natj212_: Macrolet is for storing macros right?
2020-09-06T20:19:36Z natj212_: That'd probably work just might be overkill
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2020-09-06T20:19:47Z phoe: natj212_: what do you mean by "storing the expression"
2020-09-06T20:19:54Z phoe: AeroNotix: sb-alien::alien-lambda
2020-09-06T20:19:55Z Bike: that sounds more like symbol-macrolet
2020-09-06T20:20:02Z Bike: though "storing the expression" is not the ideal way to think of it
2020-09-06T20:20:11Z phoe: that's not portable though, I don't know if CFFI has anonymous callbacks like that./
2020-09-06T20:20:20Z phoe: how many callbacks do you want to define like that, anyway? why not name them?
2020-09-06T20:20:22Z AeroNotix: well I will just be using sbcl any way
2020-09-06T20:20:24Z Bike: you can do like (symbol-macrolet ((x (aref y z))) (setf x 4)) which is equivalent to (setf (aref y z) 4).
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2020-09-06T20:20:43Z AeroNotix: phoe: because the library is intended to be arbitrarily used with user-code. The whole API is intentionally created so you can override tonnes of parts of it with callbacks.
2020-09-06T20:20:50Z Bike: also it's a special operator rather than a macro.
2020-09-06T20:20:52Z AeroNotix: it would be a crap API if I took that ability away
2020-09-06T20:21:18Z natj212_: Symbol-macrolet might work
2020-09-06T20:21:26Z phoe: AeroNotix: I don't understand, why can't the user just (defcallback my-package:my-callback ...) and pass my-package:my-callback as their callback?
2020-09-06T20:21:36Z phoe: that's customizability right there
2020-09-06T20:21:49Z AeroNotix: phoe: because I am trying to hide that it's a CFFI wrapper? I want to provide a nice API instead of something disgusting like that
2020-09-06T20:22:22Z AeroNotix: I want them to just be able to provide pure lisp functions, no cffi, no nothing
2020-09-06T20:22:31Z phoe: I see, so you might need to generate alien closures on the fly that close over Lisp functions.
2020-09-06T20:22:39Z AeroNotix: I don't think so
2020-09-06T20:22:48Z AeroNotix: if we go back to the beginning of my question
2020-09-06T20:22:48Z phoe: defcallback over a gensym might work, but that's ugly stuff.
2020-09-06T20:23:03Z AeroNotix: I had already mostly figured a nice API before we got into the weeds with interrogation
2020-09-06T20:23:16Z phoe: what does your API look like?
2020-09-06T20:23:41Z AeroNotix: there just needs to be one callback function defined, inside my wrapper, the library already has a void* user-data. Just set the void* to point to however you need to look the user's code up again.
2020-09-06T20:24:20Z AeroNotix: for example: `(make-instance 'my-class :handle-event-type-x #'some-function)`
2020-09-06T20:24:39Z AeroNotix: rather than what you're suggesting which is to leak the internals of the library (i.e. cffi details) to the user.
2020-09-06T20:25:22Z AeroNotix: the goal here would be to make #'some-function the void* that the c lib already takes
2020-09-06T20:25:38Z AeroNotix: and my generic callback uses that
2020-09-06T20:25:45Z phoe: hmmmm
2020-09-06T20:25:45Z AeroNotix: phoe: does that not make more sense?
2020-09-06T20:25:49Z phoe: yes, it does
2020-09-06T20:25:52Z AeroNotix: right
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2020-09-06T20:26:01Z phoe: in the general case passing Lisp pointers to C is impossible because of Lisp GC being able to move objects at any time
2020-09-06T20:26:23Z AeroNotix: yeah I get that, which is why I was going to set the void* to a key on some datastructure. Like a map protected with a RW lock
2020-09-06T20:26:27Z phoe: you could index Lisp functions in some sorta hash table that is keyed with integer keys.
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2020-09-06T20:26:36Z AeroNotix: yeah ok
2020-09-06T20:26:39Z AeroNotix: I will do that
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2020-09-06T20:27:13Z puchacz: hi, is http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_case_.htm required to use eq (so I can use keywords, or list of keywords in keys? or just symbols, t and otherwise? it says it has to be the "same", and the word "same" is linked, and "same" is explained that it is indistinguishable by a predicate, not saying which preidcate....
2020-09-06T20:27:27Z AeroNotix: this is a http3/quic library. So far nothing I've found available aside from two libraries work with Google's load balancers.
2020-09-06T20:27:44Z AeroNotix: so hence needing to use this daft library to do things. I hate the way the library is, but them's the breaks.
2020-09-06T20:27:50Z phoe: puchacz: as far as I remember CASE uses EQL
2020-09-06T20:28:09Z AeroNotix: There's a bunch of http3/quic libraries out there, but they don't support talking to Google load balancers... which is tedious to say the least.
2020-09-06T20:28:09Z Alfr: AeroNotix, how do you decide that those functions won't be used again and you may loose your last reference to it? Otherwise you're going to accumulate some-functions.
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2020-09-06T20:28:36Z puchacz: phoe: is it specified officially?
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2020-09-06T20:28:43Z AeroNotix: Alfr: you mean "how do you not leak memory" - the usual techniques.
2020-09-06T20:28:45Z puchacz: eql should match on characters
2020-09-06T20:28:57Z AeroNotix: by being diligent and not writing code that leaks.
2020-09-06T20:29:01Z phoe: AFAIK there is a minor hole in the CASE page, it doesn't mention that EQL is used
2020-09-06T20:29:10Z phoe: but AFAIK somewhere the spec says that if a predicate is not specified then EQL is assumed
2020-09-06T20:29:28Z phoe: some things like CATCH explicitly use EQ.
2020-09-06T20:29:36Z phoe: but it is explicitly noted
2020-09-06T20:29:47Z puchacz: phoe: I would need to try but I had an impression that it was not matching characters from string
2020-09-06T20:29:52Z Alfr: AeroNotix, I mean do you get some notification from the C side that some provided callback won't ever be used again?
2020-09-06T20:30:19Z AeroNotix: Alfr: you explicitly close/free the library. It won't keep using things after you've closed it, barring a bug in the underlying library
2020-09-06T20:30:25Z phoe: puchacz: (case #\b (#\a 1) (#\b 2) (#\c 3) (t 0))
2020-09-06T20:30:27Z puchacz: phoe: it works (case (aref " " 0) (#\space "space"))
2020-09-06T20:30:27Z phoe: try macroexpanding this
2020-09-06T20:30:49Z puchacz: one sec
2020-09-06T20:31:24Z puchacz: eql in sbcl
2020-09-06T20:31:45Z puchacz: why is it quoting '#\b etc?
2020-09-06T20:32:09Z Alfr: AeroNotix, so you have some points where you know that something won't be used again and can thus feed those some-functions to the GC on the lisp side. I was only curious. :)
2020-09-06T20:32:13Z phoe: because it should
2020-09-06T20:32:21Z phoe: the keys in CASE are not evaluated
2020-09-06T20:32:34Z puchacz: okay :)
2020-09-06T20:33:03Z phoe: also, http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/26_glo_s.htm#same
2020-09-06T20:33:05Z phoe: see the second meaning
2020-09-06T20:33:21Z phoe: from CLHS CASE: "If the test-key is the same as any key for that clause (...)"
2020-09-06T20:33:28Z phoe: where "same" goes to the glossary
2020-09-06T20:33:38Z puchacz: yes, "eql is the default predicate when none is mentioned explicitly."
2020-09-06T20:33:41Z puchacz: from the glossary
2020-09-06T20:33:44Z phoe: <3
2020-09-06T20:33:46Z phoe: that's the spot
2020-09-06T20:34:06Z puchacz: :)
2020-09-06T20:34:07Z puchacz: thks
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2020-09-06T21:26:55Z AeroNotix: phoe: https://github.com/AeroNotix/weird-pointers stuck all that into a system
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2020-09-06T21:39:19Z phoe: yes
2020-09-06T21:46:00Z AeroNotix: Thanks for the help!
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2020-09-07T00:44:32Z galex-713: Hello
2020-09-07T00:44:43Z galex-713: Hello
2020-09-07T00:44:46Z galex-713: Is networking standardized into common lisp?
2020-09-07T00:45:55Z no-defun-allowed: Not in ANSI Common Lisp, but usocket is basically universally supported.
2020-09-07T00:46:47Z galex-713: where is it described best? where does it come?
2020-09-07T00:47:22Z no-defun-allowed: https://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/
2020-09-07T00:47:29Z galex-713: thank you very much!
2020-09-07T00:52:31Z galex-713: is there such an universal API for graphical toolkit(s) (like gtk/qt) for common lisp? or does each implementation have its own thing?
2020-09-07T00:54:29Z no-defun-allowed: Qtools for Qt, I haven't heard of anything for Gtk, but there is also McCLIM for CLIM which is all Lisp (and only supports the X window protocol officially).
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2020-09-07T03:10:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-09-07T03:10:38Z markasoftware: and to you too!
2020-09-07T03:13:28Z markasoftware: is there a better way to capture the value of a loop variable in a lambda during every loop iteration than (loop for i from 0 to 5 collect (let ((k i)) (lambda () k))) ?
2020-09-07T03:13:54Z markasoftware: (If I do not bind k to the value of i, then all the lambdas will return 6 -- the final value of i)
2020-09-07T03:14:03Z beach: Correct.
2020-09-07T03:14:26Z beach: So it's either capturing it in a closure or in some data structure.
2020-09-07T03:15:01Z beach: Er, the data structure would not hold the variable, of course, but the value.
2020-09-07T03:16:17Z markasoftware: i see, i guess i will learn to live with the extra (let)
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2020-09-07T05:26:23Z galex-713: no-defun-allowed: is Qtools portable? do you have some link too?
2020-09-07T05:26:28Z galex-713: thank you very much again btw
2020-09-07T05:26:58Z beach: Why would you choose an FFI solution over a native one?
2020-09-07T05:27:03Z no-defun-allowed: I haven't used it, but I would say so.
2020-09-07T05:27:23Z no-defun-allowed: galex-713: https://shinmera.github.io/qtools/
2020-09-07T05:27:44Z galex-713: thank you!
2020-09-07T05:27:51Z galex-713: beach: is Qtools FFI?
2020-09-07T05:28:00Z White_Flame: massive list here, old & new, with clim and lots of ffi stuff: https://cliki.net/GUI
2020-09-07T05:28:02Z galex-713: beach: by native, do you mean something like CLIM?
2020-09-07T05:28:06Z no-defun-allowed: beach: It might be necessary if one wants to write graphical programs that run on Windows or macOS without an X server (with established backends).
2020-09-07T05:28:28Z beach: galex-713: I suppose it is not written in Common Lisp, so yes.
2020-09-07T05:28:31Z no-defun-allowed: Qt is written in C++, so it is not native to Lisp.
2020-09-07T05:28:41Z galex-713: no-defun-allowed: for compatibility, I would like
2020-09-07T05:28:52Z galex-713: interoperability with existing widgets, other applications
2020-09-07T05:29:03Z galex-713: better integration
2020-09-07T05:29:10Z beach: Good luck with the debugging.
2020-09-07T05:29:34Z no-defun-allowed: And admittedly, I only write GUIs when absolutely necessary; my domain is basically backend stuff.
2020-09-07T05:29:57Z galex-713: beach: thank you
2020-09-07T05:31:42Z White_Flame: and I tend to stick to HTML GUIs, for the for-free multiuser & remoting
2020-09-07T05:32:31Z contrapunctus: White_Flame: "multiuser and remoting"? 🤔
2020-09-07T05:32:53Z White_Flame: yeah, 1 process, any number of sockets from anywhere each with a gui
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2020-09-07T05:37:25Z contrapunctus: I see...
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2020-09-07T05:52:13Z markasoftware: is there a canonical way to create an empty string that is safe to modify?
2020-09-07T05:52:20Z markasoftware: I've heard that literals are not safe to modify
2020-09-07T05:52:41Z markasoftware: make-string, nvm
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2020-09-07T05:57:38Z iissaacc: what's the time complexity of hash-table-count?
2020-09-07T05:58:32Z beach: It would be surprising if it were more than O(1).  But the standard has no opinion about it.
2020-09-07T05:58:34Z White_Flame: it's not specified, but sbcl at least maintains a count so it's just a single slot lookup
2020-09-07T05:58:35Z iissaacc: O(1) or O(n)? seems like the count is part of the hash data from "#<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQUAL :COUNT 4 {1001AE9963}>"
2020-09-07T05:58:40Z iissaacc: oh cool
2020-09-07T06:01:28Z beach: It would be surprising because, in order to determine whether to grow or shrink the table after each operation, it has to compare the count to the threshold.
2020-09-07T06:01:56Z beach: So if it were O(n), then that would make each operation O(n) as well.
2020-09-07T06:02:31Z iissaacc: right
2020-09-07T06:02:46Z no-defun-allowed: Using the segmenting implementation of concurrent-hash-tables leads to a slow (but still O(1)) hash-table-count, as it must lock each segment to get each sub-count.
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2020-09-07T06:04:50Z no-defun-allowed: Odds are you aren't using that, but it could feasibly be a CL hash table implementation. (And resizing is done per segment/sub-table, so it doesn't affect the performance of resizing.)
2020-09-07T06:04:59Z beach: I guess the count does not have to be checked for each operation.  Only from time to time.
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2020-09-07T06:06:47Z iissaacc: good to know, thanks folks
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2020-09-07T06:10:51Z ldb: good afternoon
2020-09-07T06:10:59Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ldb
2020-09-07T06:11:26Z ldb: no-defun-allowed: hi
2020-09-07T06:16:21Z ldb: I think loke has made a McCLIM fronted for Maxima
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2020-09-07T06:19:22Z beach: Indeed, it is called Climaxima.
2020-09-07T06:19:32Z beach: Not sure what letters should be capitalized.
2020-09-07T06:20:20Z markasoftware: http://markasoftware.com:4321/cons sneak peek of a server-rendered HTML <form> library I'm working on
2020-09-07T06:20:46Z no-defun-allowed: Don't worry, it is still 1972, no one has fancy teletypes that can write CLIMAXIMA and LISP other than in all-caps. (Apologies for the non-fresh joke.)
2020-09-07T06:21:29Z markasoftware: nevermind it already crashed
2020-09-07T06:21:31Z no-defun-allowed: markasoftware: A link preview was generated here, but when I open a browser window to see that, it cannot connect.
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2020-09-07T06:23:18Z ldb: beach: from the project description Climaxima uses FreeType to render symbols, does that mean the specified fonts are required to be present?
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2020-09-07T06:30:18Z markasoftware: link should work now
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2020-09-07T06:30:46Z beach: ldb: I don't know.  You could ask loke.
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2020-09-07T07:23:00Z aeth: markasoftware: You might also want make-array instead of make-string because it has more options.
2020-09-07T07:24:40Z aeth: markasoftware: In particular, you can (make-array 8 :element-type 'character :adjustable t :fill-pointer 0) (for some arbitrary size, not just 8) to get a string that you can vector-push-extend to
2020-09-07T07:25:44Z aeth: I often do this sort of algorithm to create a fixed-length string of an unknown length: (let ((s (make-array 8 :element-type 'character :adjustable t :fill-pointer 0))) (vector-push-extend #\A s) (subseq s 0 (fill-pointer s)))
2020-09-07T07:26:06Z aeth: There's probably a few other ways to do it other than SUBSEQ, e.g. (coerce s 'simple-string)
2020-09-07T07:27:30Z scymtym: ldb: the freetype-based font sub-system locates and renders fonts more like a, say, GTK application would. so it is better at finding and selecting fonts which are present on the system (compared McCLIM's native font sub-system). that is independent of the questions whether climaxima requires special fonts and whether those are distributed with climaxima
2020-09-07T07:29:43Z aeth: Hmm... Okay, it looks like the SUBSEQ one is mandated by the standard as a way of getting a fresh simple array with otherwise the same type. I guess it makes sense because you wouldn't always want the whole length like with COERCE so if it didn't work like this you'd sometimes have to copy twice instead of once. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm
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2020-09-07T09:30:19Z phoe: beach: could you send me the abstract for your current talk?
2020-09-07T09:30:35Z phoe: (I'm sorry for losing it, again - I promise to be better in the future)
2020-09-07T09:31:20Z beach: I don't think I sent one.
2020-09-07T09:31:32Z beach: This is for next week, yes?
2020-09-07T09:35:15Z beach: phoe: I'll do it this afternoon.  I am a bit busy with SICL work right now.
2020-09-07T09:35:28Z beach: By the way, when is the meeting this week?
2020-09-07T09:37:50Z phoe: beach: Wednesday. I am heavily disorganized and am only sending the mails right now. I apologize.
2020-09-07T09:38:28Z beach: Not a problem for me.  You'll have the abstract for my talk text week sometime this afternoon.
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2020-09-07T09:46:23Z phoe: Thanks.
2020-09-07T09:46:27Z phoe: Posted - https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/io4m9m/online_lisp_meeting_8/
2020-09-07T09:48:16Z beach: Great!
2020-09-07T09:48:58Z phoe: ;; I perhaps should not do such things while running low on sleep since they are prone to errors, but I guess that an invitation with errors is better than no invitation
2020-09-07T09:50:03Z contrapunctus: phoe: worse is better 😏
2020-09-07T09:50:25Z beach: APL means "A Programming Language", not "Array Programming Language", unless the abstract refers to something different.
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2020-09-07T09:58:02Z phoe: beach: it likely means "the APL", just with a backronymed modification of the name
2020-09-07T09:58:07Z phoe: but then again, I'm just a messenger here
2020-09-07T09:58:53Z beach: Sure.
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2020-09-07T10:38:41Z p_l: phoe: pretty sure it wasn't a backronym, though it shares a similar trait with Lisp in its origins as pure theory early on
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2020-09-07T10:51:28Z phoe: p_l: yes, it's A Programming Language, but I've seen plenty of people nowadays refer to it as "Array PL" in informal contexts
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2020-09-07T11:55:13Z phoe: aaaaa
2020-09-07T11:55:22Z phoe: the first ProgAlgs review for Apress is done.
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2020-09-07T11:56:08Z phoe: this took me a long while to do and should result in an even better book overall
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2020-09-07T12:48:54Z beach: phoe: Congratulations!  And thanks for doing that!
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2020-09-07T12:51:25Z phoe: beach: my pleasure.      ; and exhaustion, but that one will pass in a few days
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2020-09-07T14:02:20Z beach: phoe: http://metamodular.com/SICL/creating-cl-abstract-3.text
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2020-09-07T14:03:15Z phoe: beach: thanks, I will submit the invitation today.
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2020-09-07T14:03:47Z beach: Sounds good.
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2020-09-07T14:35:13Z Xach: hmm, it would be nice to undefine a method from xref.
2020-09-07T14:35:51Z Xach: and also to refresh it with "g"
2020-09-07T14:36:11Z AeroNotix: do you get much value out of xref? I've used it but not worked it into my workflow much
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2020-09-07T14:37:25Z AeroNotix: huh weird you popped up, just added a dep to your timers package in something I am using
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2020-09-07T14:41:26Z Xach: AeroNotix: oh no! that project is now part of SBCL and should not be used on its own.
2020-09-07T14:41:31Z AeroNotix: Xach: oh ok, cool
2020-09-07T14:41:45Z Xach: see sb-timer, i think
2020-09-07T14:42:03Z AeroNotix: I saw the sb interface to it and assumed that you had wrapped it in the timers library in the hopes you would make it support cross-implementation, eventually
2020-09-07T14:42:13Z Xach: no, it was the other way around
2020-09-07T14:42:15Z AeroNotix: gotcha ok
2020-09-07T14:42:21Z Xach: i invented the api, and sbcl cloned it
2020-09-07T14:42:25Z Xach: well, not really
2020-09-07T14:42:26Z AeroNotix: Well, this thing I am writing is tied pretty heavily to sbcl any way
2020-09-07T14:42:28Z Xach: i stole it from lispworks!
2020-09-07T14:42:30Z AeroNotix: lol
2020-09-07T14:42:36Z Xach: but i wrote the code for sbcl, and sbcl folded it in
2020-09-07T14:42:42Z AeroNotix: gotcha, oke doke then
2020-09-07T14:43:16Z Xach: your interpretation is funny to me, but only because i know the history from 17 years ago
2020-09-07T14:43:29Z Xach: TIMER can almost vote in the USA!
2020-09-07T14:44:21Z AeroNotix: yeah it's just that you see google results as a point in time, you're not given the full history of everything. I see the sbcl API, I see the timer API, my assumption is that your timers exists because sbcl is implementation specific
2020-09-07T14:44:37Z AeroNotix: but w/e. I already use a tonne of `sb-*` APIs in this project
2020-09-07T14:45:09Z Xach: I should add a note to my page
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2020-09-07T14:49:58Z AeroNotix: yeah might help others
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2020-09-07T14:51:14Z Xach does so now
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2020-09-07T15:09:38Z pve: Xach: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2043
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2020-09-07T15:38:55Z Xach: pve: cool!
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2020-09-07T15:39:52Z pve: Xach: :)
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2020-09-07T15:44:25Z pve: still needs a mode hook or define-key
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2020-09-07T16:11:17Z AeroNotix: if I have used cffi:defcallback to define a callback, should I be able to call it with cffi:foreign-funcall-pointer?
2020-09-07T16:11:43Z AeroNotix: I am getting: Unhandled memory fault at #x0.
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2020-09-07T16:14:42Z AeroNotix: oh em gee
2020-09-07T16:14:51Z _death: AeroNotix: to get a pointer you need to use (cffi:callback name)
2020-09-07T16:15:03Z AeroNotix: I've figured it out
2020-09-07T16:15:32Z AeroNotix: I was using a progn to foreign-allocate and set up a struct, but I wasn't returning the struct from it, d'oh
2020-09-07T16:15:38Z AeroNotix: think I've solved it now
2020-09-07T16:17:08Z AeroNotix: d'oh yeah that was it. I was returning a setf call which was a pointer itself, so my debugging made me think it was the func pointer I wanted rather than some random other pointer I was using
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2020-09-07T16:28:01Z tychoish: hey, so I'm having trouble loading swank (in stumpwm; built from quicklisp with recent SBCL; using slime from melpa) and I keep getting sb-cltl2 load/find errors, and I can't reproduce the error outside of stump
2020-09-07T16:29:08Z Bike: like what error, it can't fidn sb-cltl2 to load it?
2020-09-07T16:29:14Z tychoish: yep
2020-09-07T16:29:58Z Bike: swank does require sb-cltl2, but if it's only broken with stump that's uh, weid
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2020-09-07T16:30:32Z tychoish: agreed. (my outside-of-stump reproduction was in a slime session, which admittedly could have been tainted in a different way)
2020-09-07T16:30:47Z _death: check SBCL_HOME.. stumpwm (used to?) munge with it
2020-09-07T16:31:12Z tychoish: I did rebuild that after finding something on stack overflow
2020-09-07T16:37:41Z tychoish: and just did it again to be sure
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2020-09-07T16:40:59Z tychoish: bam _death that was it... I set it at compile time but not at build time.
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2020-09-07T18:56:32Z dlowe: Xach: looked at stencl for your templating needs?
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2020-09-07T20:17:03Z Xach: dlowe: not yet
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2020-09-07T20:57:47Z jmercouris: hello everyone, good evening
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2020-09-07T21:02:04Z aeth: contradiction detected. greetings contain 'good morning'
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2020-09-07T21:08:02Z jmercouris: oh, whoops :-)
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2020-09-07T21:39:07Z edgar-rft: "Good Something Anyone" might be a politically correct greeting
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2020-09-07T22:00:39Z TMA: generic greeting, anyone
2020-09-07T22:00:52Z phoe: what happened to "hello"
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2020-09-07T22:01:04Z tychoish: too easy
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2020-09-07T22:01:40Z phoe: #.(format t "~A~%" (alexandria:random-elt *irc-lisp-greetings*))
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2020-09-07T22:01:52Z TMA: + contains "hell" as a substring which might be construed insensitive
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2020-09-07T22:03:21Z phoe: hi
2020-09-07T22:07:27Z edgar-rft: head injury
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2020-09-07T22:13:20Z AeroNotix: How do I get back the sockaddr from a sb-bsd-socket:socket?
2020-09-07T22:13:40Z AeroNotix: I want to pass it to something else, I can see in the sbcl source code that this seems to be available
2020-09-07T22:13:47Z AeroNotix: but unsure if there's a proper API for it
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2020-09-07T22:14:33Z phoe: AeroNotix: https://github.com/usocket/usocket/blob/master/backend/sbcl.lisp#L531-L547
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2020-09-07T22:14:47Z AeroNotix: phoe: not using usocket
2020-09-07T22:14:57Z phoe: AeroNotix: don't use usocket
2020-09-07T22:14:59Z AeroNotix: though I get this is close enough
2020-09-07T22:15:05Z AeroNotix: get => guess
2020-09-07T22:15:08Z phoe: read which sb-socket functions are called by it
2020-09-07T22:15:14Z AeroNotix: yeah I missed at first, my bad
2020-09-07T22:15:17Z phoe: :D
2020-09-07T22:15:27Z phoe: ;; but no, seriously, do use usocket later
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2020-09-07T22:15:41Z AeroNotix: No, I don't want/need to. It's not really doing much for me, plus there are some internals I am kinda relying on
2020-09-07T22:16:22Z AeroNotix: the sb-bsd-sockets source makes reference to the _actual_ sockaddr struct, so I am looking specifically for that. I can reconstruct it using the public APIs - but wondering if there's a way to get it from the socket directly
2020-09-07T22:17:09Z AeroNotix: yeah I'll use `sb-bsd-sockets:with-socket-fd-and-addr`
2020-09-07T22:17:14Z AeroNotix: *::
2020-09-07T22:17:17Z AeroNotix: it's internal
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2020-09-08T01:53:24Z ldb: good morning everyone
2020-09-08T01:53:49Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ldb
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2020-09-08T03:25:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-08T03:25:52Z iissaacc: hello beach
2020-09-08T03:25:58Z iissaacc: how are we
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2020-09-08T03:29:02Z beach: Well, I am converting the SICL bootstrapping procedure so that uses the new AST evaluator I wrote, and I am converting to using Clostrum-based environments, so there is a lot of work.  But making progress.
2020-09-08T03:32:10Z iissaacc: what is Clostrum? Can't find anything on google
2020-09-08T03:32:52Z iissaacc: ah wait i found a PDF written by a Robert Strandh
2020-09-08T03:33:07Z beach: It should be on S-expressionists.  Let me check...
2020-09-08T03:33:47Z beach: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Clostrum
2020-09-08T03:34:17Z beach: It is an extraction and improvement of SICL first-class global environments to a separate repository.
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2020-09-08T03:34:52Z beach: Clostrum improves on first-class global environments in that the client can create the full constellation of compile-time environments that the Common Lisp standard defines.
2020-09-08T03:40:25Z iissaacc: way over my head at this point but im browsing thru the code anyway
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2020-09-08T03:41:37Z beach: The code is very simple.  It is just keeping track of definitions basically.
2020-09-08T03:42:05Z beach: clhs 3.2.1
2020-09-08T03:42:06Z specbot: Compiler Terminology: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ba.htm
2020-09-08T03:43:21Z beach: Look at that page, starting with paragraph number 10: "Four different environments relevant to compilation are distinguished:..."
2020-09-08T03:44:32Z beach: Clostrum lets the client create the three compile-time environments, and it provides operations at compile time to query and update those environments.
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2020-09-08T03:46:36Z beach: So, for example, DEFGENERIC may put information in the compilation environment about the lambda list, the GENERIC-FUNCTION-CLASS, the GENERIC-FUNCTION-METHOD-CLASS, the METHOD-COMBINATION name and arguments, so that when a DEFMETHOD is encountered, the compilation environment can be queried and the DEFMETHOD can emit the correct code for instantiating the method.
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2020-09-08T03:49:41Z iissaacc: ah yes
2020-09-08T03:50:58Z beach: Every implementation does some of this stuff of course, but in an implementation-specific way.  Clostrum does it in an implementation-independent way that can be customized.
2020-09-08T03:51:17Z iissaacc: ^^ you just answered the question I was typing out
2020-09-08T03:51:20Z iissaacc: cool
2020-09-08T03:51:23Z beach: Heh.
2020-09-08T03:53:06Z iissaacc: ah so i see stuff like ... fboundp you define it as a generic function instead of something implementation specific
2020-09-08T03:53:18Z beach: Exactly.
2020-09-08T03:53:54Z iissaacc: so basically if you were making a new lisp implementation you could just write new methods for those generics that work on your specific implementation choices
2020-09-08T03:54:10Z beach: Right again!
2020-09-08T03:54:15Z iissaacc: thats neat man
2020-09-08T03:55:10Z beach: I have several reasons for creating Clostrum.  First of all, it's going to be an essential part of SICL, but since it is an independent repository, the temptation of putting SICL-specific functionality in there is removed.
2020-09-08T03:55:15Z beach: Second, for someone who wants to create a new Common Lisp implementation, this part of the work is already done, since it is documented, and tested.
2020-09-08T03:55:16Z beach: Third, I am secretly hoping that existing Common Lisp implementations will adopt it for their compiler, so as to decrease the overall maintenance burden on maintainers of Common Lisp implementations.
2020-09-08T03:56:01Z iissaacc: its cool how "accessible" this kind of stuff is in common lisp. there seems to be a bigger gap in python (the only other lang ive used) between the language and the implementation details
2020-09-08T03:56:37Z iissaacc: once you start looking at the nuts and bolts it all works how you'd expect having written "normal" programs in common lisp
2020-09-08T03:56:44Z iissaacc: if that makes sense
2020-09-08T03:56:50Z White_Flame: CL does have a history as an OS where it's lisp all the way down
2020-09-08T03:56:51Z beach: I think I see what you mean.
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2020-09-08T04:04:55Z beach: So far, we have extracted the following independent libraries from SICL:
2020-09-08T04:05:01Z beach: Eclector, which is an implementation-independent Common Lisp reader.  It is maintained and greatly improved by scymtym.  It is not only used in SICL, but also in Clasp, and for several other projects that are not Common Lisp implementations.  It is used to parse Common Lisp code in editors and used to create annotated documentation.
2020-09-08T04:05:07Z beach: Concrete Syntax Tree, which is a way of representing Common Lisp source code that includes information about source location.  Again, it is going to be used in editors and other applications.
2020-09-08T04:05:13Z beach: Clostrum, that I already mentioned.
2020-09-08T04:05:17Z beach: Trucler, which is used to represent all the nasty lexical environments created by a Common Lisp compiler.
2020-09-08T04:05:17Z beach: Incless (work in progress) is an implementation-independent Common Lisp printer.  I may have forgotten a few.
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2020-09-08T04:06:04Z beach: Next in line is Cleavir, the implementation-independent compiler framework.
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2020-09-08T07:03:50Z phoe: hello
2020-09-08T07:04:02Z phoe: I am waking up, slowly
2020-09-08T07:05:21Z ldb: heloo phoe
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2020-09-08T09:05:36Z kelamir[m]: Good morning 🙂
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2020-09-08T09:10:54Z phoe: good morning
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2020-09-08T09:14:15Z beach: Hello kelamir[m].
2020-09-08T09:14:44Z kelamir[m]: [m] - matrix?
2020-09-08T09:14:55Z beach: I think so, yes.
2020-09-08T09:15:16Z beach: kelamir[m]: Are you new here?
2020-09-08T09:15:22Z kelamir[m]: Oh. Is this automatic, or you do that intentionally? 🤔
2020-09-08T09:16:02Z kelamir[m]: I am, beach. I've been to #lispcafe for several days, but haven't been writing here much.
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2020-09-08T09:16:09Z beach: I see.
2020-09-08T09:16:31Z kelamir[m]: What are you making nowadays, Beach?
2020-09-08T09:16:50Z beach: minion: Please tell kelamir[m] about SICL.
2020-09-08T09:16:50Z minion: kelamir[m]: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
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2020-09-08T09:17:15Z beach: minion: Please tell kelamir[m] about Cleavir.
2020-09-08T09:17:15Z minion: kelamir[m]: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2020-09-08T09:17:55Z kelamir[m]: Woah, sounds cool!
2020-09-08T09:18:04Z beach: Thanks.
2020-09-08T09:19:40Z kelamir[m] checks out SICL
2020-09-08T09:19:42Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Yes, the [m] suffix means you are communicating over Matrix, and you haven't bothered to change your nick with whatever bot does that.
2020-09-08T09:19:49Z no-defun-allowed: Whoops, that's for kelamir.
2020-09-08T09:20:03Z beach: Thanks anyway. :)
2020-09-08T09:20:21Z no-defun-allowed: As far as I can tell, the [m] got chopped off no-defun-allowed[m] to fit it in 16 characters, so I never had to change it.
2020-09-08T09:20:31Z beach: Oh, nice!
2020-09-08T09:22:33Z kelamir[m]: Thank you for the explanation,*no-defun-allowed*.
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2020-09-08T09:27:15Z beach: kelamir[m]: So what brings you to #lisp?  Are you planning to learn Common Lisp?
2020-09-08T09:33:15Z kelamir[m]: I'm learning Lisp, just a beginner. I read a little on Lisp and went into making the program right away. It's being made to gamify work, for me and a friend. You have to work for 25 minutes to earn 1 gold, and 30 gold lets you buy(later, lend) a book. Two days ago I set it up to work with classes, instead of storing data in a single variable, like (set (nth 0 li) 10).
2020-09-08T09:34:12Z kelamir[m]: Everything is entered in commands
2020-09-08T09:34:19Z kelamir[m] uploaded an image: image.png (41KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/dUKgOuZNjjYfWmgNPwPrbvFm/image.png >
2020-09-08T09:35:03Z kelamir[m]: So my friend will surely have a bad time using it :D
2020-09-08T09:35:56Z beach: I see [sort of].
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2020-09-08T09:44:03Z kelamir[m]: beach: what had caused you to reimplement Common Lisp? Any reasons?
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2020-09-08T10:20:51Z beach: kelamir[m]: Most existing free implementations started life many decades ago, so the code is not up to snuff compared to what we know today.
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2020-09-08T10:21:44Z beach: kelamir[m]: And hardware has evolved.  Technique that were used back then, in particular table driven techniques, are no longer very good because of the relatively bad performance of memory.
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2020-09-08T10:22:42Z beach: kelamir[m]: Also, debugging support in most free implementations is not that great.  I want to improve that.
2020-09-08T10:22:44Z beach: kelamir[m]: So I have invented several new techniques that I wanted to put in a fresh implementation.
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2020-09-08T10:25:11Z beach: kelamir[m]: Because the work on most implementations started before CLOS was part of the standard, or even existed at all, most of them are structured as a pre-CLOS Common Lisp system with CLOS "bolted on".  That means that they cannot take advantage of the flexibility of CLOS in the base implementation.
2020-09-08T10:26:12Z beach: kelamir[m]: By bootstrapping CLOS first, I can simplify many aspects of the system, because they can take advantage of CLOS for even basic stuff like symbols, arrays, packages, etc.
2020-09-08T10:28:01Z jmercouris: given: (defun xy (x y) (print x) (print y))
2020-09-08T10:28:12Z jmercouris: (funcall 'xy 1 2) -> 1 2
2020-09-08T10:28:14Z kelamir[m]: That sounds helpful. I'm looking forward to using it once I can tell the difference. So you'll make CLOS even better? 🤩 I can barely understand what CLOS is about, but it's a handy thing. Thanks for working on it, beach.
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2020-09-08T10:28:27Z jmercouris: (funcall 'xy (list 1 2)) -> (1 2) nil
2020-09-08T10:28:34Z jmercouris: How to unwind the list like ,@?
2020-09-08T10:28:37Z beach: kelamir[m]: Sure.  I'll let you know when it is ready for general use.
2020-09-08T10:28:54Z beach: clhs apply
2020-09-08T10:28:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
2020-09-08T10:29:05Z beach: jmercouris: ^
2020-09-08T10:29:13Z jmercouris: ah, yes, thank you
2020-09-08T10:29:20Z jmercouris: I was trying some backquote ,@ nonsense
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2020-09-08T11:57:23Z Xach: Hmm, what's the easiest way to make a persistent alien octet buffer in SBCL? Something I can pass to sb-posix:read and sb-posix:write.
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2020-09-08T11:58:04Z Xach: By persistent I mean not created by with-alien - something I can assign to a global variable, for example.
2020-09-08T11:58:37Z phoe: this smells like something that static-vectors would do
2020-09-08T11:58:48Z phoe: unless by "buffer" you mean something other than "vector"
2020-09-08T11:59:06Z Xach: Ah, I'll see what it does, thanks.
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2020-09-08T11:59:40Z Xach: yoinks, looks like it's deep internals frobbing there
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2020-09-08T11:59:58Z phoe: tl;dr static-vectors allocates a Lisp array whose storage is also reachable from the C world
2020-09-08T12:00:11Z phoe: that's because that vector won't be moved by GC
2020-09-08T12:00:19Z Xach: Hmm, but the array it allocates is not suitable for sb-posix:read/write
2020-09-08T12:00:23Z Xach: Not directly, anyway
2020-09-08T12:00:30Z phoe: oh! why is that?
2020-09-08T12:00:34Z phoe reads
2020-09-08T12:01:03Z Xach: sb-posix:read works on a (* t) alien object, not a lisp object.
2020-09-08T12:01:14Z phoe: oh, you mean a void pointer?
2020-09-08T12:01:33Z Xach: I don't know - I am copying what is in the sb-posix:read/write source.
2020-09-08T12:01:44Z Xach: It does not say "void pointer", it says (* t)
2020-09-08T12:01:50Z phoe: oh
2020-09-08T12:01:57Z phoe: hmmmm, I assume it means any sort of pointer
2020-09-08T12:02:04Z phoe: if you call #'static-vector-pointer on the Lisp vector then you get a SAP object
2020-09-08T12:02:07Z jackdaniel: void pointer is a C concept and it is an intermediate type for casting pointers
2020-09-08T12:02:31Z Xach: phoe: that could be what i need, I'll try that.
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2020-09-08T12:03:01Z phoe: I assume that (* t) reads as "pointer to something of type T"
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2020-09-08T12:03:42Z Xach: Here's the context - I had an idea about signaling via a pipe. Shared pipe where the consumer waits via select(2) and the producer occasionally writes a meaningless byte to say "grab more work". This is probably better done with sb-thread primitives, but I thought this would be FSVO easier.
2020-09-08T12:03:43Z jackdaniel: i.e to create structures managing an arbitrary pointer. being precise: any pointer may be cast to a void pointer, and void pointer may be cast back only to the original data type
2020-09-08T12:04:04Z Xach: The hangup is my naive expectation that I could use read(2) and write(2) more easily than I've found.
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2020-09-08T12:06:23Z Xach: I could instead make fd-streams from the pipe fds and go from there.
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2020-09-08T12:10:59Z _death: no one mentioned cffi:foreign-alloc ?
2020-09-08T12:11:22Z Xach: maybe they picked up on my unspoke desire to use sbcl directly
2020-09-08T12:11:46Z _death: well, cffi uses sbcl directly
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2020-09-08T12:20:14Z _death: https://github.com/death/marray can be evolved to support full IPC by removing the limitations mentioned
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2020-09-08T12:23:33Z jmercouris: INTER PROCESS COMMUNICATION?
2020-09-08T12:23:55Z phoe checks *print-case*
2020-09-08T12:24:22Z jmercouris: lol
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2020-09-08T12:30:34Z _death: for the fd-stream approach I had https://gist.github.com/death/2709ae6a9124968a86070bbb760b1629
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2020-09-08T12:34:03Z Xach: I think I may use semaphores instead.
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2020-09-08T12:58:36Z Josh_2: Afternoon
2020-09-08T12:58:47Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
2020-09-08T12:59:21Z Josh_2: Hi beach
2020-09-08T12:59:25Z Josh_2: How is your work coming along?
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2020-09-08T13:00:24Z beach: Quite well thank you.
2020-09-08T13:00:46Z beach: I just finished writing my first "issue" for Clostrum. :)
2020-09-08T13:01:20Z beach: Since yesterday, I thought there was a problem in my Clostrum-based bootstrapping procedure, but it is a bug in Clostrum.
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2020-09-08T13:03:39Z Josh_2: Well thats good
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2020-09-08T13:05:34Z beach: Sort of.  Now I have to decide whether to wait for the maintainer to return from vacation, or whether to attempt to repair it myself.
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2020-09-08T13:11:09Z jdz: Xach: SBCL has mailboxes (using lock-free queues), would those not work for you?
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2020-09-08T13:16:24Z Josh_2: beach: so the bug isn't mission critical? You can continue on with something else despite the bug?
2020-09-08T13:16:57Z beach: I think I can manage.
2020-09-08T13:17:42Z Josh_2: Thats good
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2020-09-08T13:22:34Z dlowe: Xach: https://github.com/dlowe-net/stencl
2020-09-08T13:22:57Z dlowe: I've been using it for my web projects
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2020-09-08T13:48:05Z Xach: jdz: how are they named? apropos finds nothing
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2020-09-08T13:49:27Z Xach: jdz: a semaphore is working fine for my purpose, anyway - it is pretty simple.
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2020-09-08T13:50:26Z jdz: Xach: They're in sb-concurrency package, make-mailbox, receive-message, send-message, tec.
2020-09-08T13:50:29Z jdz: etc even.
2020-09-08T13:50:38Z Xach: ah
2020-09-08T13:51:00Z Xach: jdz: thank you, that's cool
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2020-09-08T13:57:10Z leo_song: is there any widely used library to make literal hash tables? surely I can write another one, but if there are something which the community is familiar would be better
2020-09-08T13:57:27Z phoe: #.(alexandria:plist-hash-table ...)
2020-09-08T13:58:02Z Xach: leo_song: no
2020-09-08T13:58:10Z Xach: the phoe trick is not widely used
2020-09-08T13:58:18Z phoe: :(
2020-09-08T13:58:28Z Xach: it isn't!
2020-09-08T13:58:54Z leo_song: well, as alexandria is common enough, I guess it's fair
2020-09-08T13:58:56Z phoe: I haven't seen any other one, except for #H syntax from RUTILS
2020-09-08T13:59:20Z Lycurgus: because natively provided facilities of an implementation make more eense?
2020-09-08T13:59:32Z phoe: you can't use those in portable code though
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2020-09-08T13:59:56Z Lycurgus: i mean cl
2020-09-08T14:00:01Z Lycurgus: *meant
2020-09-08T14:00:12Z Xach: Lycurgus: possibly
2020-09-08T14:00:19Z Lycurgus: it was supposed to be a thing
2020-09-08T14:00:33Z Xach: i think it's another case of "once you know how to make it, you have accepted that you might not need it as much as you thought initially"
2020-09-08T14:00:38Z Lycurgus: the fact that an unchanging spec never emerged notwithstanding
2020-09-08T14:00:44Z Xach: i don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing
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2020-09-08T14:03:15Z Lycurgus: if the lack of portability of otherwise more or less conforming implementations was that great cl would be an utter failure
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2020-09-08T14:47:19Z Josh_2: _death: I think I fixed Parmenides so it now passes all It's tests
2020-09-08T14:49:41Z Josh_2: I will push to github so you can take a look
2020-09-08T14:49:58Z _death: Josh_2: cool.. did you define a test system?
2020-09-08T14:51:23Z Josh_2: with ASDF?
2020-09-08T14:51:26Z Josh_2: I've never done that before
2020-09-08T14:53:14Z _death: yes.. basically it could look like the one in https://github.com/death/constantia .. have an :in-order-to clause in the main system and define a test system with a :perform clause
2020-09-08T14:53:28Z Josh_2: oh also I think we can just get rid of prtest3, the syntax for all the def-frames was incorrect and it seems to just be an early version prtest
2020-09-08T14:54:05Z Josh_2: okay I will attempt that
2020-09-08T14:54:43Z _death: then you can use asdf:test-system to run the tests
2020-09-08T14:55:52Z _death: I thought about some improvements to make on the weekend
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2020-09-08T14:58:49Z Josh_2: The original writers have used (eval ..) and this is why it wasn't passing It's tests
2020-09-08T14:58:57Z Lycurgus: push to https://github.com/K1D77A/Parmenides2 ?
2020-09-08T14:59:12Z _death: right.. that's one thing to improve upon :)
2020-09-08T14:59:15Z Josh_2: https://github.com/K1D77A/Parmenides
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2020-09-08T14:59:34Z Josh_2: I had to declare a bunch of variables to have dynamic-extent so that the tests would pass
2020-09-08T14:59:49Z Josh_2: I have written about that in prtests.lisp
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2020-09-08T15:00:15Z _death: dynamic-extent seems wrong.. did you mean special?
2020-09-08T15:00:45Z Bike: https://github.com/K1D77A/Parmenides/commit/28492bf450c621e6ba6a864f2b8cb1f402799e0b that's bizarre
2020-09-08T15:00:51Z Bike: you should never have to declare dynamic-extent
2020-09-08T15:00:54Z Josh_2: oof
2020-09-08T15:00:59Z Josh_2: okay not that then
2020-09-08T15:01:03Z Josh_2: special is what I meant
2020-09-08T15:01:07Z Josh_2: I will change
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2020-09-08T15:03:06Z Josh_2: okay fixed
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2020-09-08T15:05:18Z Josh_2: well declaring them special no longer works
2020-09-08T15:06:12Z _death: likely want to use defvar.. with special declarations you need to have them both at the binding site and the use site
2020-09-08T15:07:33Z _death: but the real fix would be to use funcall instead of eval (and maybe keep the form around for informational purposes)
2020-09-08T15:08:09Z Josh_2: I think it would be better to change to using funcall instead and no longer using lists
2020-09-08T15:08:09Z _death: I guess for now instead of the LET you can use PROGV
2020-09-08T15:08:11Z Josh_2: yes
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2020-09-08T15:10:18Z _death: hmmm disregard what I said about binding/use sites..
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2020-09-08T16:08:52Z mseddon: hmm. probably stupid question, is there a convenient way to allow the compiler to assume fixnum arithmetic within an expression?
2020-09-08T16:09:49Z mseddon: or perhaps even a more realistic size like (integer 0 #xFFFFFFFF)
2020-09-08T16:10:08Z Josh_2: I guess with type declarations
2020-09-08T16:10:15Z Josh_2: using declare or maybe the
2020-09-08T16:10:22Z beach: By "fixnum arithmetic", do you mean "modulo arithmetic"?
2020-09-08T16:10:25Z mseddon: yes, but that will only declare the type of the incoming value.
2020-09-08T16:10:36Z mseddon: beach: yes, exactly. possibly 2's complement as well, if possible.
2020-09-08T16:10:57Z beach: I think SBCL has some trickery for that, but there is nothing in the standard.
2020-09-08T16:11:11Z mseddon: aha, okay, fair enough. Thanks!
2020-09-08T16:11:33Z mseddon: (definitely a possible CDR proposal?)
2020-09-08T16:12:26Z beach: "Here is a proposal on how we can make Common Lisp behave as stupidly as C"?
2020-09-08T16:12:53Z mseddon: mainly since, e.g. ABCL will have a hard time, since it cannot use cpu hardware to detect integer overflow, because vm's are stupid.
2020-09-08T16:13:23Z mseddon: so a possible escape hatch for implementations running in braindamaged environments where this will cause unnecessary performance issues.
2020-09-08T16:13:44Z beach: So performance trumps correctness again.
2020-09-08T16:13:46Z mseddon: it would assert "I am not relying on overflow"
2020-09-08T16:13:57Z mseddon: it is an error for said program to rely on integer overflows.
2020-09-08T16:14:11Z beach: Are you saying it won't overflow?
2020-09-08T16:14:25Z mseddon: I'm saying it won't overflow
2020-09-08T16:14:35Z mseddon: but I don't want the compiler to check for it, since it'll hurt my performance.
2020-09-08T16:14:36Z beach: Then why do you need modulo arithmetic?
2020-09-08T16:15:08Z mseddon: well okay, yes, point, I don't need modulo arithmetic here.
2020-09-08T16:16:02Z mseddon: i sort of want to say (the (integer 0 #xFFFFFFFF) (+ 3 (the (integer 0 #xFFFFFFFF)) (* 4 n)))
2020-09-08T16:16:30Z mseddon: without all the ceremony.
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2020-09-08T16:17:14Z mseddon: since I assume a compiler would not check for overflow in that expression.
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2020-09-08T16:18:51Z _death: could compartmentalize the ceremony by defining a u32+ operator
2020-09-08T16:19:22Z mseddon: _death: ah, good call. and I can (declare inline) and be done with it. Thanks!
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2020-09-08T16:21:36Z _death: well, maybe u32+ isn't the right name, since you also assert that there's no overflow
2020-09-08T16:22:04Z mseddon: `unsafe-u32+` is fine also
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2020-09-08T16:22:33Z mseddon: or stick it in the `unsafe-u32` package and shadowing-import it into scary packages.
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2020-09-08T16:23:48Z _death: a u32+ would also force the result to be a u32, not assume it
2020-09-08T16:25:00Z _death: shadow-import of the arithmetic symbols isn't such a good idea, because they have multiple meanings
2020-09-08T16:25:03Z mseddon: _death, indeed, ideally it would. and a compiler would be smart enough to know it can elide the check.
2020-09-08T16:25:25Z mseddon: _death: no I agree, and it's extremely rude and surprising to people who decide to (in-package) your package.
2020-09-08T16:25:45Z mseddon: generally i don't like to shadow symbols in cl
2020-09-08T16:26:12Z mseddon: uh, i meant, "in the common-lisp package"
2020-09-08T16:26:25Z _death: for example consider (declare (type (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) ...)) .. if * is not cl:* then it's bad
2020-09-08T16:26:40Z mseddon: _death: oh that is really horrible too.
2020-09-08T16:27:04Z mseddon: it may not be immediately obvious, depending on the package you are in, what the problem is.
2020-09-08T16:28:43Z mseddon: but yes. that way lies madness.
2020-09-08T16:28:45Z _death: sbcl has a modular arithmetic optimizer.. http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Modular-arithmetic
2020-09-08T16:29:18Z mseddon: oh, thanks! and the syntax is really tidy too.
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2020-09-08T16:30:27Z mseddon: and I'd argue that given that declaration, the code is 'correct'. and performant. Many hashing algorithms etc require modulo arithmetic and must munch lots of bytes. It's good to keep them in a register and reduce the amount of branch prediction flushes you're doing.
2020-09-08T16:31:07Z mseddon: it rather muddies the definition of the arithmetic operators though.
2020-09-08T16:31:26Z _death: right.. but if you're aiming for actual performance then it may not be satisfactory still.. then you move on to simd packs :)
2020-09-08T16:31:28Z mseddon: but only lexically, where it's convenient when e.g. porting C.
2020-09-08T16:31:36Z mseddon: well exactly :)
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2020-09-08T16:33:06Z _death: and unfortunately there is no openmp-like support (i.e. with a view towards performance)
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2020-09-08T16:33:51Z mseddon: _death: yeah, there's a lot of fun optimizations in "High Performance Compilers for Parallel Optimization" that are kinda... lacking.
2020-09-08T16:34:13Z mseddon: some of which can now even be deferred to the gpu
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2020-09-08T16:35:17Z mseddon: although I figure macros can save the day, assuming cffi is up to the task of dynamically linking to them.
2020-09-08T16:35:55Z _death: yeah.. for gpu there are some cuda/opencl systems.. although for high performance computing it's not a panacea
2020-09-08T16:37:22Z mseddon: yeah, i think a lot of that is usually better folded away as higher level functions, matrix multiply, bitonic sort etc.
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2020-09-08T16:38:33Z _death: there was https://github.com/pkhuong/Xecto and newer effort is Petalisp I guess
2020-09-08T16:38:57Z mseddon: _death: nice, actual xectors :D
2020-09-08T16:39:05Z mseddon: thanks, I will have a play with that.
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2020-09-08T17:05:41Z mseddon: beach: and no, I never want to lose correctness when (saftey 3). if (saftey 0) and I take the cdr of a fixnum, I don't care if you segfault, though.
2020-09-08T17:06:01Z Josh_2: I care if beach segfaults
2020-09-08T17:06:03Z Josh_2: :P
2020-09-08T17:06:40Z mseddon: I meant his, or indeed anyone's implementation. If the lead developer segfaults, that is a different matter :)
2020-09-08T17:07:46Z mseddon: safety*. bleh. it has been a long day.
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2020-09-08T17:14:15Z mseddon: beach may have a point about that SBCL modular arithmetic declaration though. Since, for example, CLISP (at least, used to, I've not touched it for 20+ years) will just ignore declarations (as per spec), that means code relying on sbcl behaviour is now non-conforming in sbcl.
2020-09-08T17:14:59Z mseddon: perhaps it should be (sbcl:declare ...), that way it won't just silently fail when you run it and surprise you later.
2020-09-08T17:16:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: yeah, I'll probably rewrite my library to use something more like CL's reader algorithm.
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2020-09-08T17:19:18Z _death: mseddon: what code are you referring to?
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2020-09-08T17:19:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: mseddon: the spec says "The consequences are undefined if a program violates a declaration or a proclamation"
2020-09-08T17:19:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 3.3
2020-09-08T17:19:44Z specbot: Declarations: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_c.htm
2020-09-08T17:19:54Z mseddon: (defun i (x y)
2020-09-08T17:19:54Z mseddon:   (declare (type (unsigned-byte 32) x y))
2020-09-08T17:19:54Z mseddon:   (ldb (byte 32 0) (logxor x (lognot y))))
2020-09-08T17:20:02Z mseddon: is not a declaration that is recognised.
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2020-09-08T17:20:22Z _death: mseddon: what do you mean by "recognised"?
2020-09-08T17:20:27Z mseddon: 3.3.1: In general, an implementation is free to ignore declaration specifiers except for the declaration, notinline, safety, and special declaration specifiers.
2020-09-08T17:20:31Z _death: that is confirming code
2020-09-08T17:20:34Z mseddon: yes.
2020-09-08T17:20:35Z _death: *conforming
2020-09-08T17:20:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: If your code violates the declared type, your program is non-conforming
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2020-09-08T17:20:43Z mseddon: now, imagine a minimal implementation
2020-09-08T17:20:48Z mseddon: following 3.3.1 to the letter
2020-09-08T17:21:08Z mseddon: it does not SEE (declare (type (unsigned-byte 32) x y)
2020-09-08T17:21:17Z mseddon: so it's results will diverge from SBCL.
2020-09-08T17:21:19Z _death: if the declarations are ignored, the result would still be the same
2020-09-08T17:22:36Z mseddon: so it doesn't imply overflow?
2020-09-08T17:22:46Z _death: what overflow?
2020-09-08T17:22:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: mseddon: if you have a value that's MAXVALUE of its declared type (unsigned-byte 32) and incf it, the implementation can do whatever it wants
2020-09-08T17:22:54Z mseddon: right.
2020-09-08T17:22:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: That incf is UB
2020-09-08T17:23:08Z mseddon: gotcha. thanks.
2020-09-08T17:23:33Z _death: the result of lognot may need more than 32 bits, but that's ok
2020-09-08T17:23:47Z mseddon: so basically unsigned-byte is a trivial deftype macro.
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2020-09-08T17:24:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: The return types of the functions LOGXOR and LOGNOT aren't specified, as _death is pointing out
2020-09-08T17:25:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: You'd have to do (the (unsignted-byte 32) (lognot y)) to declare the type of the result
2020-09-08T17:26:22Z _death: right, and in the code shown the final LDB has sbcl infer the return type
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2020-09-08T17:27:59Z mseddon: right. so it's propagating from values, not variables, duh. flowgraph.
2020-09-08T17:29:29Z mseddon: but in the case of (+ x y), the best it can infer would be `(integer 0 ,(expt 2 33))
2020-09-08T17:30:27Z _death: yes, but if you also have a surrounding (ldb (byte 32 0) ...) then the result is again (unsigned-byte 32).. and the modular arithmetic optimizer may eliminate the intermediate step
2020-09-08T17:31:25Z mseddon: ahhh, I get it. and then yes. the compiler just folds that all in. neat!
2020-09-08T17:32:07Z _death: it's the same with the lognot case..
2020-09-08T17:32:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, the (disassemble 'i) is pretty nice there
2020-09-08T17:32:25Z mseddon: yeah I should dig more into the emitted code.
2020-09-08T17:32:46Z mseddon: thanks all!
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2020-09-08T18:09:33Z Josh_2: is there a way to detect whether a stream was closed other than trying to read from it and catching the condition?
2020-09-08T18:09:47Z _death: clhs open-stream-p
2020-09-08T18:09:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open_s.htm
2020-09-08T18:09:47Z Josh_2: oof
2020-09-08T18:09:50Z Josh_2: there is open-stream-p
2020-09-08T18:10:23Z Josh_2: will this work with a socket stream?
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2020-09-08T18:11:23Z dlowe: it should, but it's worth noting that the "closed" state of a socket stream can be a little weird at times.
2020-09-08T18:11:30Z _death: I suppose, though that may not give the actual information may want
2020-09-08T18:12:02Z dlowe: plan9 was right - bidirectional streams are terrible.
2020-09-08T18:12:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Josh_2: I just recently re-discovered that there are utilities that handle sockets for you, and you just read from stdin and write to stdout
2020-09-08T18:13:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thins like: http://www.superscript.com/ucspi-ssl/sslserver.html
2020-09-08T18:13:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think xinetd supports this too
2020-09-08T18:13:55Z Josh_2: xD
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2020-09-08T18:14:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: These don't help with clients, I guess
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2020-09-08T18:16:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: And it'd be nice have pure-lisp versions of this sort of abstraction (e.g. a higher-order function or a macro that sets up *STANDARD-INPUT* and *STANDARD-OUTPUT* correctly before invoking your function
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2020-09-08T18:17:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, I think READ-SEQUENCE handles your problem
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2020-09-08T18:17:18Z Josh_2: it doesn't solve my problem really
2020-09-08T18:17:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of my code around sockets creates a buffer and calls READ-SEQUENCE until its return value < length of the buffer
2020-09-08T18:18:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then I call a second function with the buffer between iterations, or whatever
2020-09-08T18:18:22Z Josh_2: well I don't know exactly how much I have to read
2020-09-08T18:18:26Z Josh_2: I just read until CRLF
2020-09-08T18:19:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, if you're buffering, you split the buffer on crlf
2020-09-08T18:19:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can also use READ-LINE with socket-streams
2020-09-08T18:19:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: and just have it return nil if it hits EOF
2020-09-08T18:19:49Z Josh_2: yes
2020-09-08T18:19:52Z Josh_2: I was doing that
2020-09-08T18:20:26Z dlowe: Josh_2: you want your socket to be in non-blocking mode
2020-09-08T18:20:34Z dlowe: and then buffer any incomplete lines
2020-09-08T18:21:02Z Josh_2: I don't understand
2020-09-08T18:21:36Z dlowe: sockets can be blocking or non-blocking - in blocking mode, when you request a read of size x, it will block until x bytes have been received
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2020-09-08T18:21:56Z Josh_2: I am just trying to see if the client DC'd when they shouldn't have
2020-09-08T18:21:58Z dlowe: in non-blocking mode, it will return immediately with whatever has been received, up to x
2020-09-08T18:23:03Z dlowe: ok, under what conditions is it okay to dc?
2020-09-08T18:24:20Z _death: CL also has read-char-no-hang (but unfortunately no read-byte-no-hang..)
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2020-09-08T18:26:57Z Josh_2: In the event of a system failure I assume
2020-09-08T18:26:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is LispWorks specific, but: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/lisp-sandbox/blob/master/gemini-client.lisp#L35
2020-09-08T18:28:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: (actually, the LW-specific part is just the SSL-CONNECTION function)
2020-09-08T18:28:41Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: here your read-line may hang forever, unless you have some timeouts in place
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2020-09-08T18:29:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: _death: I think the COMM library sets that up
2020-09-08T18:29:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I do need to check the docs :)
2020-09-08T18:29:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: AND, that code is broken
2020-09-08T18:30:02Z _death: hmm it's also weird that you use = to compare the return value
2020-09-08T18:30:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use the gemini-byline
2020-09-08T18:30:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: if the length read = the length of the buffer, there may still be more data on the socket
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2020-09-08T18:30:46Z _death: right, but read-line returns a string
2020-09-08T18:30:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Line 41 should be READ-SEQUENCE, not READ-LINE
2020-09-08T18:31:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: the function at 47 is the one I mostly use
2020-09-08T18:31:27Z _death: ok
2020-09-08T18:31:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sorry for using broken code as an example :)
2020-09-08T18:33:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just fixed it, I think
2020-09-08T18:33:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Assuminig SSL-CONNECTION returns a non-blocking socket stream
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2020-09-08T18:35:17Z coltkirk: hello, i'm going through all of baggers Little Bits, I really am quite fond of those videos
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2020-09-08T18:49:00Z coltkirk: might solving all the problems in Gentle Introduction be a good follow up to Bagger's
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2020-09-08T18:52:21Z _death: I've not seen the videos (yet).. but I guess it wouldn't hurt ;)
2020-09-08T18:59:39Z coltkirk: i'd skip the actual text, and just go straight to the exercises, then use all my notes from the videos to solve
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2020-09-08T19:02:19Z _death: perhaps some of them require the context set up by the text, or assume some ignorance remediated by later text
2020-09-08T19:06:19Z coltkirk: it does. I always have problems remembering caddr cddr caddddrrr and all the ancient register values
2020-09-08T19:06:23Z _death: if so, there are exercises on the web that likely demand less context.. for example the "ninety-nine lisp problems" or the lisp-koans.. also note these sets may have a different focus
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2020-09-08T19:06:57Z coltkirk: oh nice, i'll go right ahead and bookmark those
2020-09-08T19:07:15Z _death: coltkirk: you only need to remember CAR and CDR.. CADDR is (cAr (cDr (cDr x)))
2020-09-08T19:07:56Z coltkirk: oh ok, i see how that works
2020-09-08T19:08:04Z coltkirk: car car cdr cdr Caaddr
2020-09-08T19:09:33Z mseddon: you'll find yourself remembering and using more than you'd think. :)
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2020-09-08T19:11:40Z mseddon: coltkirk: as a warning, Gentle Introduction (even the modern releases) seem to cover the 1984 spec, so for example, they make no use of generic functions or classes.
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2020-09-08T19:12:30Z mseddon: I cannot speak for the specifics, but I imagine later editions work with the modern standard, while documenting a common lisp subset.
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2020-09-08T19:33:24Z Josh_2: It's a good book though
2020-09-08T19:33:29Z Josh_2: that was my first programming book
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2020-09-08T20:00:43Z mseddon: yeah, it is well written.
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2020-09-08T20:32:12Z Josh_2: Finally fixed a very annoying bug, pretty satisfying
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2020-09-08T21:20:41Z kelamir[m]: I'm glad about you, Josh_2. That must be nice :)
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2020-09-09T01:24:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: _death: I think that there's actually a "hangs forever" bug in my code
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2020-09-09T01:25:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, it's interesting, because it may be mitigated by the way the COMM library handles socket closing
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2020-09-09T03:15:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-09T03:47:18Z coltkirk: good morning
2020-09-09T03:47:30Z beach: Hello coltkirk.
2020-09-09T03:48:04Z coltkirk: since I've been working through CL for the past month or so and I use IRC all the time via emacs, figured this would be a nice place to park
2020-09-09T03:48:38Z beach: #lisp is a good place to hang out.
2020-09-09T03:49:30Z coltkirk: i rarely use freenode as some of the people can be intense and irritable, but the #lisp room seems like a good spot
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2020-09-09T03:50:33Z beach: Apparently, #lisp is one of the best IRC channels.  We try to stay on topic, and there are people here that prevent truly unacceptable behavior.
2020-09-09T03:54:12Z coltkirk: cool, well i'm seriously studying lisp so I'm here to listen and learn
2020-09-09T03:55:55Z beach: Great!  There is also #clschool for truly elementary questions.  #lisp is more geared to discussions between a bit more experienced Lispers.
2020-09-09T03:56:03Z beach: But newbie questions are tolerated.
2020-09-09T03:56:31Z beach: If the newbie gets too annoying, he or she is directed to #clschool.
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2020-09-09T04:01:18Z ajithmk: Hey Guys,
2020-09-09T04:01:18Z ajithmk: How are vectors implemented in sbcl? Apart from the bookkeeping required for vectors on the top of arrays, I want to know if the main data ie elements themselves are stored as arrays.
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2020-09-09T04:02:41Z ajithmk: A vector constrained to hold single-floats, specifically.
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2020-09-09T04:03:02Z Bike: i'm not sure what you're asking. what do you mean "elements themselves are stored as arrays"?
2020-09-09T04:03:26Z Bike: a (simple-array single-float (*)) will probably be a header followed by single-floats with no indirection
2020-09-09T04:04:14Z ajithmk: I mean, are they stored contiguously in memory like c arrays?
2020-09-09T04:04:24Z beach: Yes.
2020-09-09T04:04:32Z Bike: on any implementation worth its salt, yes
2020-09-09T04:04:33Z ajithmk: In contrast to something like list
2020-09-09T04:04:44Z beach: Definitely not lists.
2020-09-09T04:05:43Z Bike: i'm pretty sure every implementation stores array data contiguously, though there might be more or less indirection depending on dimensionality, simplicity, etc
2020-09-09T04:06:12Z ajithmk: Ah cool. 👍
2020-09-09T04:06:34Z beach: ajithmk: What is the reason for your question?
2020-09-09T04:07:24Z Bike: if the array is not specialized, the data will be boxed, so there's more indirection there, but it's still random access
2020-09-09T04:10:42Z ajithmk: I have a file which contains something like 1000 floats. I parsed them and stored them in a list(by 'push'ing), naively. And then I realized that in C++ I used std:vector<float> to hold them. So I was wondering if list is inefficient and may be I can use a vector in lisp specialized on single-floats instead.
2020-09-09T04:11:35Z beach: It depends on how you want to access them later.  And it depends on whether you know how many you have from the start.
2020-09-09T04:11:46Z beach: But that's just elementary algorithmic complexity.
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2020-09-09T04:12:13Z beach: Like if you grow a vector regularly, you need to copy your elements, so a list may be more efficient.
2020-09-09T04:12:30Z beach: But if you access the elements randomly, then a vector is better.
2020-09-09T04:12:35Z ajithmk: But that is the same problem with C++ vectors too. They have to resize anyway if we are pushing more elements than initial size.
2020-09-09T04:13:00Z beach: Sure.
2020-09-09T04:13:28Z beach: Though in Common Lisp you have adjustable arrays.
2020-09-09T04:13:47Z beach: So you can use something like VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND which makes life easier.
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2020-09-09T04:17:22Z ajithmk: I just checked that extend push. Great. At this point those specialized adjustable vectors are almost the same as C++ vectors.
2020-09-09T04:17:57Z beach: Why do you care about C++?
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2020-09-09T04:21:53Z ajithmk: Haha. Actually I don't. I am porting a small application I have written earlier in C++ to CL and was thinking about the data structures along the way.
2020-09-09T04:22:05Z beach: I see.
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2020-09-09T06:49:52Z phoe: good morningggg
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2020-09-09T06:58:04Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe
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2020-09-09T07:12:31Z beach: Hey phoe.
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2020-09-09T08:55:19Z Harag: Morning
2020-09-09T08:55:51Z Harag: Is there anybody here that knows lparallel?
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2020-09-09T08:58:31Z phoe: kinda sorta yes, I guess
2020-09-09T08:58:34Z phoe: what's the question?
2020-09-09T08:58:50Z Harag: thanx phoe
2020-09-09T08:59:06Z Harag:  I am trying to use lparallel:pdotimes but if you have a return-from
2020-09-09T08:59:07Z Harag: 	some where in the call "chain" and it gets called pdotimes crashes
2020-09-09T08:59:07Z Harag: 	with "Attempt to RETURN-FROM a block or GO to a tag that no longer
2020-09-09T08:59:07Z Harag: 	exists..."
2020-09-09T08:59:22Z Harag: eish sorry that paste went horribly wrong
2020-09-09T08:59:40Z phoe: paste the whole function somewhere
2020-09-09T08:59:49Z phoe: (just not here)
2020-09-09T09:00:10Z phoe: it seems that you are closing over a block or a tagbody and then transferring the closure to another thread
2020-09-09T09:01:01Z Harag: phoe the dotimes calls a function that calls a function that calls a function that has the return-from ... so not sure what to paste for you
2020-09-09T09:01:42Z Harag: hang on let me try to come up with a simple example that shows the behaviour
2020-09-09T09:02:11Z phoe: show me the code that calls RETURN-FROM
2020-09-09T09:02:22Z phoe: the error must be lexical in this case
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2020-09-09T09:05:45Z Harag: never mind phoe... your comment got me thinking and I found a another pdotimes in the chain it is most likely the issue
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2020-09-09T09:08:34Z phoe: :O
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2020-09-09T09:11:48Z phoe: oooh, https://github.com/lmj/lparallel/blob/9c11f40018155a472c540b63684049acc9b36e15/src/cognate/pdotimes.lisp#L66
2020-09-09T09:12:01Z phoe: PDOTIMES implicitly creates an anonymous function
2020-09-09T09:12:14Z phoe: likely this function then gets passed to other threads and therefore outside of its lexical scope
2020-09-09T09:12:30Z phoe: so you must not' (block foo (pdotimes ... (lambda () (return-from foo ...)))
2020-09-09T09:12:44Z phoe: because that's going to crash in the way you described
2020-09-09T09:12:57Z phoe: uh, sorry, I mean
2020-09-09T09:13:07Z phoe: (block foo (pdotimes ... (return-from foo)))
2020-09-09T09:13:08Z phoe: but you may
2020-09-09T09:13:18Z phoe: (pdotimes ... (block foo (return-from foo)))
2020-09-09T09:14:03Z Harag: https://privatebin.net/?a7413ec3b61b7e42#A6cXuqPaYidkpBXx4ZcRLMkC8jE8JrmzB7aNnGT1cuAJ
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2020-09-09T09:14:51Z phoe: if do-sequence does any parallelization then this won't be valid code
2020-09-09T09:15:17Z phoe: exactly for the reason I have mentioned
2020-09-09T09:15:22Z Harag: do-sequence just calls dotimes
2020-09-09T09:15:44Z Harag: pdotimes I mean
2020-09-09T09:15:52Z phoe: yes
2020-09-09T09:16:09Z phoe: then that's not going to work well
2020-09-09T09:16:17Z phoe: you need to restructure that function a little bit
2020-09-09T09:16:43Z phoe: can't tell you how at the moment though, too distracted with $DAYJOB
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2020-09-09T09:19:15Z scymtym: looks like PFIND-IF could work
2020-09-09T09:20:31Z phoe: ^
2020-09-09T09:21:47Z Harag: phoe: thanx I at a loss with the block bit you are speaking about...
2020-09-09T09:22:11Z phoe: Harag: DEFMETHOD implicitly defines a named block
2020-09-09T09:22:17Z Harag: aaah
2020-09-09T09:22:28Z phoe: that's why returning from functions and methods works. :D
2020-09-09T09:23:13Z phoe: simplifying, (DEFUN FOO (...) ...) === (SETF (FDEFINITION 'FOO) (LAMBDA (...) (BLOCK FOO ...)))
2020-09-09T09:23:40Z phoe: DEFMETHOD works like that, too, except a method is added to an existing GF and the generated LAMBDA is a part of that method.
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2020-09-09T09:26:24Z Harag: scymtym: thanx will try that
2020-09-09T09:29:59Z Harag: thank you phoe
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2020-09-09T09:32:26Z scymtym: Harag: i hope it works
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2020-09-09T09:34:38Z Harag: scymtym: going to sit down take a deep breath and then mock up simpler examples and see what works and what does not then go back my actual code and see if I can apply what I hopefully learned
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2020-09-09T09:37:23Z phoe: aaaa
2020-09-09T09:37:32Z phoe: there is much drilling in my block of flats today
2020-09-09T09:37:58Z beach: Ouch!
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2020-09-09T09:38:22Z phoe: there will be little talk from me today in order to avoid broadcasting madness over the network
2020-09-09T09:38:30Z beach: Sure.
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2020-09-09T10:43:22Z phoe: Online Lisp Meeting #8: the stream has started, the proper video will begin in 17 minutes. https://www.twitch.tv/TwitchPlaysCommonLisp
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2020-09-09T10:49:12Z beach: I think I'll watch the entire thing later then.  Thanks for letting us know about the duration.
2020-09-09T10:50:25Z phoe: it seems that the first 90 minutes are APL proper and the latter 90 minutes is a demonstration of a product that utilizes this technology
2020-09-09T10:50:45Z phoe: (and Q&A)
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2020-09-09T12:08:07Z Josh_2: Afternoon all
2020-09-09T12:08:53Z phoe: hellooo
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2020-09-09T12:16:57Z pve: Hey, does slime look for an init file on startup, like ~/.slime.lisp or something?
2020-09-09T12:19:02Z pve: I use slime-connected-hook to load ~/.slime.lisp, but I was wondering if this functionality is built in already.
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2020-09-09T12:35:24Z Xach: pve: there's a swank.lisp it loads, not sure of location
2020-09-09T12:35:29Z Xach: i use one, let me look
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2020-09-09T12:35:52Z Xach: ~/.swank.lisp
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2020-09-09T12:41:34Z pve: Xach: oh nice, I should use that then.. thank you
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2020-09-09T12:43:05Z pve: (I want to make sure slime-xref-undefine-method gets loaded :)
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2020-09-09T12:46:19Z Inline: sbcl.org is down omg
2020-09-09T12:46:37Z Inline: what happened to the sourcerers....
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2020-09-09T12:46:41Z Inline: lol
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2020-09-09T12:48:54Z _death: sourcerer was a good program
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2020-09-09T12:56:22Z _death: ah, it was actually called sourcer.. https://corexor.wordpress.com/2015/12/09/sourcer-and-windows-source/ .. offtopic anyway
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2020-09-09T13:05:46Z phoe: OLM#8 is over, I'll send all the recording links as soon as I get them
2020-09-09T13:05:52Z phoe: thanks to everyone who participated!
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2020-09-09T15:09:15Z Josh_2: Has anyone used dexadors keep-alive functionality, where you provide a stream for it to keep sending requests
2020-09-09T15:09:24Z Josh_2: I am unsure if it is working correctly
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2020-09-09T17:46:48Z pve: Suppose I do (defclass foo () ((name :allocation :class :accessor name :initform nil))) and want to access to slot without making a new instance. Is there a recommended way to do this?
2020-09-09T17:47:19Z pve: (name (closer-mop:class-prototype (find-class 'foo))) seems to work
2020-09-09T17:47:24Z Bike: use the class-prototype function in yeah that.
2020-09-09T17:47:29Z pve: ok thanks
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2020-09-09T17:48:38Z Josh_2: is there a way I can get socket-accept to timeout?
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2020-09-09T17:53:28Z flip214: Josh_2: there's a macro WITH-TIMEOUT, perhaps that helps
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2020-09-09T17:56:51Z Josh_2: That should do
2020-09-09T17:56:54Z Josh_2: thanks flip214!
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2020-09-09T18:03:44Z Josh_2: Worked perfectly!
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2020-09-09T23:37:14Z mathrick: so what's up with sbcl.org? It's been down for a while it seems
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2020-09-09T23:43:58Z mathrick: is there any reason I'd be getting  "bogus DEFPACKAGE option: :LOCAL-NICKNAMES" with SBCL 2.0.7? :PACKAGE-LOCAL-NICKNAMES is in *FEATURES*
2020-09-09T23:45:18Z mathrick: oh, I messed up the syntax, nevermind
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2020-09-10T02:55:05Z Oladon: In case anyone was/is curious, I finally figured out the issue I was having with Server-Sent Events and Hunchentoot -- namely, Hunchentoot uses HTTP/1.1 chunking by default, and SSE has undefined behavior when the response is chunked. Disabling chunking seems to fix the issues I was experiencing.
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2020-09-10T03:06:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-09-10T03:06:05Z Oladon: Morning, beach!
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2020-09-10T07:48:10Z montxero: I'm having trouble installing gsll from quicklisp.  Can anyone else confirm similar issues having.
2020-09-10T07:48:25Z montxero: lol... having similar issues?
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2020-09-10T08:02:27Z phoe: montxero: what are the issues in particular? could you paste some traces on https://plaster.tymoon.eu/?
2020-09-10T08:02:35Z treflip: montexero: I had some troubles installing it a year ago. IIRC, manual installation of non lisp dependencies solved all my problems.
2020-09-10T08:02:48Z phoe tries a naïve (ql:quickload :gsll)
2020-09-10T08:04:07Z phoe performs `apt install libgsl-dev`
2020-09-10T08:04:31Z phoe: it loaded
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2020-09-10T08:14:37Z montxero: phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2046#2046
2020-09-10T08:15:12Z montxero: I have installed libgsl-dev as well as libffi. Still scratching my head
2020-09-10T08:15:25Z phoe: libffi-dev?
2020-09-10T08:15:31Z montxero: yep
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2020-09-10T08:17:01Z montxero: My libffi.so is in /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libffi.so
2020-09-10T08:17:08Z phoe: oh! libffi7 on my machine provides /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libffi.so.7
2020-09-10T08:17:09Z montxero: I can get past that
2020-09-10T08:17:12Z phoe: so `apt install libffi7`
2020-09-10T08:18:07Z montxero: I have libffi.so.6
2020-09-10T08:18:14Z phoe: !
2020-09-10T08:18:25Z phoe: that should be found...
2020-09-10T08:18:45Z phoe: is your SBCL 64-bit, and is your library 64-bit?
2020-09-10T08:18:45Z montxero: That's why I'm scratching my head
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2020-09-10T08:19:01Z montxero: I do this dance with libcblas
2020-09-10T08:19:10Z montxero: libatals/cblas.so
2020-09-10T08:19:12Z montxero: ets
2020-09-10T08:19:15Z montxero: e.t.c
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2020-09-10T08:19:31Z montxero: I am about to compile sbcl from source
2020-09-10T08:19:40Z montxero: perhaps I'll have better luck
2020-09-10T08:21:02Z montxero: I installed sbcl via guix
2020-09-10T08:21:19Z phoe: oh
2020-09-10T08:21:27Z phoe: is your libffi7 installed via guix as well?
2020-09-10T08:21:33Z montxero: nope
2020-09-10T08:21:39Z phoe: that might be the case
2020-09-10T08:21:40Z montxero: I have a system libffi
2020-09-10T08:21:47Z montxero: as well as one from guix
2020-09-10T08:21:50Z phoe: I don't know if guix even uses any libraries that were not installed by guix
2020-09-10T08:22:03Z phoe: your guix installation might need its own libffi.so.6
2020-09-10T08:22:13Z montxero: It does have one
2020-09-10T08:22:18Z phoe: well then
2020-09-10T08:22:24Z montxero: in $GUIX_PROFILE/lib
2020-09-10T08:22:26Z phoe: I have no idea
2020-09-10T08:22:31Z montxero: yeah...
2020-09-10T08:23:22Z montxero: I'd take off the guix sbcl, get the debian one... if it works, I'll compile the lattest sbcl
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2020-09-10T08:41:39Z montxero: Done! installed gsll. Thanks guys
2020-09-10T08:45:24Z flip214: Is there an easy way to compare two hash-tables with string keys and another level of hash-tables?
2020-09-10T08:45:41Z phoe: a custom equality function
2020-09-10T08:45:44Z flip214: alexandria:hash-table-alist etc. don't work because of different sorting of keys
2020-09-10T08:45:49Z flip214: phoe: yeah, thanks ;/
2020-09-10T08:46:04Z White_Flame: well then sort the keys! :-P
2020-09-10T08:46:17Z phoe: sorry, nothing better than that
2020-09-10T08:46:59Z phoe: I mean, EQUALP is going to work because it uses the :TEST function on keys, but then it does EQUALP on values
2020-09-10T08:47:10Z phoe: but this depends on whether you want EQUALP on all values
2020-09-10T08:47:25Z phoe: it's going to ignore string case, for example.
2020-09-10T08:48:06Z flip214: does EQUALP work with the nested hash tables?
2020-09-10T08:48:14Z phoe: clhs equalp
2020-09-10T08:48:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equalp.htm
2020-09-10T08:48:25Z phoe: yes, it compares values via EQUALP
2020-09-10T08:48:37Z phoe: "equalp descends hash-tables by first comparing the count of entries and the :test function; if those are the same, it compares the keys of the tables using the :test function and then the values of the matching keys using equalp recursively."
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2020-09-10T08:49:17Z flip214: well, sounds good enough for now
2020-09-10T08:49:21Z phoe: if you don't want equalp for the final "leaves" of your tree, then you'll need to write a custom test function.
2020-09-10T08:49:44Z flip214: I can ignore case, that's just for a test that ensures that only the expected keys are in the result
2020-09-10T08:49:52Z flip214: thank you!
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2020-09-10T10:11:17Z kreyren_: So i just figured out the hard way that posix sh is not portable enough based on the way that it's written in GNU Emacs.. is Common Lisp more portable where the concern are a system that were created in 1978 that are non-ASCII and stuff ?
2020-09-10T10:12:04Z phoe: you mean that you are trying to run CL code on systems that are from 1978?
2020-09-10T10:12:08Z phoe: or would like to?
2020-09-10T10:13:25Z kreyren_: phoe, i think? Basically all systems that are capable of running GNU Emacs now and/or theoretically
2020-09-10T10:13:48Z kreyren_: where ideally i want to make my scripts to work everywhere and shell is apparently not portable enough
2020-09-10T10:14:17Z phoe: that's way too broad of a question
2020-09-10T10:14:21Z phoe: which operating systems are you thinking of?
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2020-09-10T10:14:43Z kreyren_: phoe, minix, unix, linux, something that someone made, etc..
2020-09-10T10:15:00Z White_Flame: cl abstracts away the notion of a character encoding, as well as has more filesystem/pathname options than the standard directories/file/extension
2020-09-10T10:15:04Z kreyren_: yes too broad of a question which is what GNU Emacs is compatible with..
2020-09-10T10:15:17Z phoe: you will need to port a Common Lisp implementation for each exotic OS that you encounter
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2020-09-10T10:15:24Z phoe: which might mean porting ECL or CLISP there
2020-09-10T10:15:35Z kreyren_: like apparently emacs-lisp works on these systems is that ported this way?
2020-09-10T10:15:35Z phoe: (unless they've already been ported there, which is possible)
2020-09-10T10:16:34Z phoe: emacs is a VM written in C that executes elisp code, no real big difference here other than the fact that emacs also bundles a ton of editor stuff along
2020-09-10T10:16:59Z kreyren_: x.x
2020-09-10T10:17:55Z kreyren_: So let me ask differently.. If someone makes their own system can i make CL to run on it even though i might not know how it is constructed today?
2020-09-10T10:18:06Z kreyren_: basically expecting CL to not be the limiting factor in portability
2020-09-10T10:18:07Z phoe: how what is constructed? the system?
2020-09-10T10:18:32Z kreyren_: phoe, yes the system i.e some CS student making their own quantum computer
2020-09-10T10:18:32Z White_Flame: this breaks down into a turing tarpit
2020-09-10T10:18:32Z phoe: you can port a CL implementation there if the target has a C compiler, see ECL or CLISP
2020-09-10T10:19:06Z kreyren_: can't find ECL not strong enough of an index on ddg
2020-09-10T10:19:06Z phoe: if it doesn't have a C compiler, you can either implement a C compiler or write a CL implementation from scratch, e.g. see Mezzano that runs CL on bare metal
2020-09-10T10:19:13Z phoe: ECL = Embeddable Common Lisp
2020-09-10T10:19:20Z kreyren_: ah
2020-09-10T10:19:34Z phoe: but basically, what White_Flame said
2020-09-10T10:19:48Z phoe: if it is Turing-complete then you can implement CL on it
2020-09-10T10:20:19Z kreyren_: and if it is not?
2020-09-10T10:20:31Z kreyren_: then it's probably not a computer right
2020-09-10T10:20:35Z White_Flame: then is it a computer as we know it?
2020-09-10T10:20:35Z phoe: then you can't have a Turing complete language there
2020-09-10T10:20:44Z phoe: and you have much bigger problems to think of
2020-09-10T10:20:58Z White_Flame: and you won't have emacs on it either
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2020-09-10T10:21:23Z kreyren_: good enough then!
2020-09-10T10:21:49Z kreyren_: unless there is something better then CL ?
2020-09-10T10:21:54Z kreyren_: for this scenario
2020-09-10T10:22:04Z phoe: yes
2020-09-10T10:22:08Z kreyren_: o.o
2020-09-10T10:22:09Z phoe: get a normal computer
2020-09-10T10:22:11Z White_Flame: you define the scenario, so...
2020-09-10T10:22:12Z phoe: and run CL on it
2020-09-10T10:22:18Z kreyren_: phoe, not an option to consider normal computer
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2020-09-10T10:22:41Z phoe: then IMO your question is too theoretical for a sane answer
2020-09-10T10:22:58Z phoe: we're now talking about some abnormal computers that are not well-defined
2020-09-10T10:23:07Z phoe: no definition, no answers
2020-09-10T10:23:10Z kreyren_: but considering portability beyond turing-complete system seems insane and even if someone made such thing then it would probably be a scientific break-through and langs adapted for it right
2020-09-10T10:23:30Z phoe: that's so futuristic that not a #lisp topic anymore :D
2020-09-10T10:23:32Z White_Flame: and if the main thrust is just recompiling something like CLISP or ECL onto it, then it's more a question about what its C support is like, rather than anything about CL
2020-09-10T10:24:25Z White_Flame: (other implementations concern themselves much more with native machine code generation rather than running CL in or on C)
2020-09-10T10:25:07Z kreyren_: true, considering sufficient then ^-^ .. So i would have to make everything in CLISP or ECL for this kind of compatibility ?
2020-09-10T10:25:19Z phoe: not really, just write portable CL
2020-09-10T10:25:36Z phoe: ECL and CLISP both implement Common Lisp, meaning that all portable Common Lisp code will run on ECL and CLISP
2020-09-10T10:25:37Z kreyren_: how do i write portable CL
2020-09-10T10:25:48Z kreyren_: ah i see O.o
2020-09-10T10:25:52Z phoe: and on SBCL, and on CL, and on Clasp, and on ABCL, and on LispWorks or Allegro Common Lisp
2020-09-10T10:25:53Z TMA: provided that the limits of the system are big enough, not being turing-complete is not an obstacle.  real systems are not turing-complete anyway (they are of finite size)
2020-09-10T10:25:56Z phoe: minion: tell kreyren_ about pcl
2020-09-10T10:25:57Z minion: kreyren_: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-09-10T10:26:00Z White_Flame: portable CL = don't use implementation-specific CL extensions
2020-09-10T10:26:21Z White_Flame: (which also encompasses threads, networking, etc)
2020-09-10T10:26:25Z phoe: (or use portability libraries with wide enough coverage that implement those extensions)
2020-09-10T10:26:50Z White_Flame: well, for a new unsupported target, yo'ure going to have to implement those extensions anew
2020-09-10T10:26:55Z kreyren_ has dyslexia and is unable to learn from books~
2020-09-10T10:27:28Z phoe: poor thing
2020-09-10T10:27:42Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2VAYZE_4wRJi_vgpjsH75kMhN4KsuzR_
2020-09-10T10:27:44Z phoe: use this then
2020-09-10T10:27:56Z kreyren_: thanku ^-^
2020-09-10T10:28:28Z kreyren_: so implementation-specific CL extensions are basically functions that are running a code designed to run specifically on the target system?
2020-09-10T10:28:36Z phoe: nope
2020-09-10T10:28:45Z kreyren_: i.e something that calls directly linux specific function and breaks on non-linux?
2020-09-10T10:28:46Z kreyren_: eh? o.o
2020-09-10T10:29:02Z phoe: they're Lisp functions and macros and variables just like everything else, they just provide functionality that is not described in the standard
2020-09-10T10:29:41Z kreyren_: is there any linting tool that would warn me about these?
2020-09-10T10:29:43Z phoe: such as POSIX interfaces, multiprocessing, networking, custom stream classes, interfacing with the inner workings of the object system, garbage collection, atomic operations, etc..
2020-09-10T10:29:46Z kreyren_: or what is the sane approach to check these
2020-09-10T10:29:47Z White_Flame: like, networking isn't in the CL spec.  so implementations provide their own networking API in CL.  portability libraries abstract those into a single API
2020-09-10T10:30:36Z phoe: the basic approach is: if you use networking, use usocket or iolib; if you use threads, use bordeaux-threads; if you use the metaobject protocol, use closer-mop; if you want to interface with the GC, use trivial-garbage; etc..
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2020-09-10T10:31:45Z phoe: and if you don't really know if there's a portability library for this particular thing you're working on, feel free to ask around
2020-09-10T10:31:57Z phoe: or just search for "common lisp X portability library"
2020-09-10T10:32:19Z kreyren_: what if i am writing something that is supposed to work on "singlethreating" and use multithreading on systems that are supporting multithreading ?
2020-09-10T10:32:39Z phoe: I'd do compile-time flags, implemented by reader conditionals
2020-09-10T10:32:40Z kreyren_: where i don't expect the CL to be limiting the runtime efficiency
2020-09-10T10:32:47Z kreyren_: o.o
2020-09-10T10:33:16Z White_Flame: there's a variable called *FEATURES* that's intended to hold keywords indicating capabilities like that, for such compile-time testing
2020-09-10T10:33:20Z phoe: these cause code to get compiled differently based on whether the target--- yes
2020-09-10T10:33:28Z White_Flame: and there's even reader syntax for it, in #+ and #-
2020-09-10T10:33:37Z phoe: that's #clschool material though
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2020-09-10T10:33:52Z White_Flame: ah, we're in #lisp proper
2020-09-10T10:34:23Z phoe: and from the practical point of view, you're *not* going to work on environments that do not support multithreading, unless you explicitly grab such an environment yourself
2020-09-10T10:34:55Z kreyren_: phoe, i want my software to work on as many systems as possible so these environments are a concern
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2020-09-10T10:35:27Z White_Flame: and to be honest, learning CL by porting it to an antiquated platform from decades before the CL spec is not going to be that easy of a learning curve
2020-09-10T10:35:40Z phoe: then write Common Lisp code an use CL running on ECL
2020-09-10T10:35:53Z phoe: then write Common Lisp code and run your code on ECL*
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2020-09-10T10:36:03Z kreyren_: i already know basics of CL, but i don't know which functions and how to use them to make them this portable
2020-09-10T10:36:17Z White_Flame: there's really nothing platform-specific in CL
2020-09-10T10:36:30Z phoe: listen to some Baggers stuff that I linked then, that's the best non-book learning material that I am aware of
2020-09-10T10:36:36Z White_Flame: unless you dig into stuff that the implementation says it provides itself
2020-09-10T10:36:40Z phoe: and ask tons of questions on #clschool once you have these.
2020-09-10T10:37:15Z kreyren_: ah ok O.o thanks for info appreciated ^-^
2020-09-10T10:37:18Z phoe: also, regardless of what you are thinking at the moment, your code is going to be executed on Linux, Windows, and macOS, and maybe some BSD flavors if you are lucky
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2020-09-10T10:37:27Z phoe: and maybe on Mezzano if you decide to stay a while and write Lisp.
2020-09-10T10:37:40Z no-defun-allowed: It would be very, very impressive if you were the first to run sequential code on a quantum computer.
2020-09-10T10:38:04Z kreyren_: I though common lisp can be run on quantum computer?
2020-09-10T10:38:12Z kreyren_: i.e those that are available for free from IBM
2020-09-10T10:38:15Z phoe: hell no
2020-09-10T10:38:26Z kreyren_: well not for free.. to run and develop code for them for free
2020-09-10T10:38:31Z White_Flame: I think CL runs the computer that manages the quantum chip
2020-09-10T10:38:35Z phoe: no real modern programming language can be run *on* a quantum computer
2020-09-10T10:38:38Z Odin-: Quantum computers are just plain bizarre.
2020-09-10T10:38:55Z phoe: what White_Flame said, it can be used to implement software that emulates or manages quantum computers, as Rigetti has proven
2020-09-10T10:38:57Z no-defun-allowed: I probably shouldn't comment on the capabilities of quantum computers, but in my mind they are fancier analog computers, which can't do sequential programs and I/O as such.
2020-09-10T10:39:07Z kreyren_: i was told that C is going to be implemented to run on QC ?
2020-09-10T10:39:18Z Odin-: And realistically will never be other than co-processors.
2020-09-10T10:39:25Z phoe: that's already #lispcafe material
2020-09-10T10:40:31Z kreyren_: o.o
2020-09-10T10:40:53Z phoe: #lispcafe is the part of #lisp where non-Lisp chat ends up
2020-09-10T10:41:13Z White_Flame: this channel is fairly strictly held on-topic
2020-09-10T10:41:14Z phoe: and I guess that quantum computing, in general, is one of those
2020-09-10T10:41:39Z kreyren_ moved that QC question in ##lispcafe then
2020-09-10T10:41:45Z kreyren_: *#lispcafe
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2020-09-10T12:13:50Z Josh_2: afternoon
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2020-09-10T12:49:10Z Inline: sup
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2020-09-10T13:28:20Z drmeister: Hi - in ESRAP - does anyone know how to recognize any character?  Whitespace, non-whitespace - everything.
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2020-09-10T13:28:47Z drmeister: I looked in parser.common-rules under comments but it's eluding me.
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2020-09-10T13:28:57Z phoe: https://scymtym.github.io/esrap/
2020-09-10T13:29:05Z drmeister: Yes - I'm reading that.
2020-09-10T13:29:13Z phoe: "The wild terminal symbol CHARACTER always succeeds, consuming and producing a single character."
2020-09-10T13:29:18Z phoe: chapter 1, Parsing Expressions
2020-09-10T13:29:23Z phoe: is that the thing?
2020-09-10T13:29:34Z drmeister: Oh wait 'character'?
2020-09-10T13:29:45Z phoe: the symbol CHARACTER, yes
2020-09-10T13:29:55Z drmeister: Sheesh - it's right in front of me.   I was looking for 'wild' 'any' - gah - thanks.
2020-09-10T13:30:24Z drmeister: Ugh stupid - thanks.
2020-09-10T13:30:27Z drmeister: That was it.
2020-09-10T13:30:33Z phoe: perfect
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2020-09-10T13:31:01Z phoe: I remember reading about this a long while ago
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2020-09-10T13:52:34Z Inline: i unpacked mcclim-0.9.7-imbolc outside of the quicklisp tree, and when there it works (albeit, the new changes concernings fonts etc are not reflected there)
2020-09-10T13:52:52Z Inline: but however i deleted all stuff in quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/mcclim-20200715-git/ and replaced it with contents of the imbolc version, and when i start my repl and run climacs i get the error about "there's no applicable method for the standard-generic-function drei:drei-instance-of when called with arguments climacs-gui:climacs
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2020-09-10T13:54:59Z Inline: so the same source outside of quicklisp tree works and inside of quicklisp tree errors
2020-09-10T13:55:06Z Inline: what gives ?
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2020-09-10T13:56:52Z Inline: i don't get that
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2020-09-10T14:23:56Z Xach: Inline: I'm not sure, but I would strongly recommend against putting things anywhere in dists/quicklisp/.
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2020-09-10T14:24:09Z Xach: Inline: those directories are specially indexed
2020-09-10T14:24:33Z Xach: Inline: if it works outside of the quicklisp tree, what is the motivation to put it inside?
2020-09-10T14:24:59Z Xach: If it's to make it loadable, it's better to put it somewhere like quicklisp/local-projects/, where it will override anything quicklisp provides
2020-09-10T14:27:33Z Inline: now i reinstalled the quicklisp version via quicklisp and moved it afterwards outside the quicklisp tree to see if that makes any changes
2020-09-10T14:28:04Z Inline: now pressing any key does not error, and also loading files into the editor from clim-listener works
2020-09-10T14:28:34Z Inline: but when i try to copy lines from the file via M-w key, the error comes back slightly differently
2020-09-10T14:29:34Z Inline: so the only version of climacs working with all copy/cut lines via M-w and C-w keys is the imbolc version of mcclim here over
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2020-09-10T14:29:50Z Inline: and that only when it is outside the quicklisp tree
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2020-09-10T14:36:10Z Xach: the experiment with putting it "in the quicklisp tree" isn't a good one, and you shouldn't draw conclusions from it
2020-09-10T14:36:23Z Xach: that's not how you would ever attempt to load something
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2020-09-10T14:44:09Z jackdaniel: Inline: climacs runs here without problems with upstream version
2020-09-10T14:44:24Z jackdaniel: so it must be something with your setup
2020-09-10T14:44:33Z jackdaniel: s/must be/probably is/
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2020-09-10T15:07:37Z Inline: jackdaniel: i don't do any fancy stuff, standard installation of a quicklisp repo with mcclim and climacs in it, and climacs does not work
2020-09-10T15:07:58Z Inline: jackdaniel: so i'm not sure how that should be a setup issue
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2020-09-10T15:19:42Z Inline: jackdaniel: if you don't mind me, how exactly do you load your systems and run clim-listener and climacs together ?
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2020-09-10T15:25:45Z jackdaniel: I have master branches of climacs and mcclim in my local-projects directory and do (ql:quickload '(clim-listener climacs)) and then (clim-listener:run-listener :new-process t) and (climacs:climacs) ; or something like this
2020-09-10T15:25:53Z beach: What should happen in this case: (let ((x 2)) (declare (special x)) (makunbound 'x) (boundp 'x)) ?
2020-09-10T15:26:33Z beach: The question is, does MAKUNBOUND influence dynamic bindings of the variable?  And if so, how should that be implemented?
2020-09-10T15:27:21Z beach: SBCL returns NIL.
2020-09-10T15:31:06Z beach: Also this one: (let ((x 2)) (declare (special x)) (print (symbol-value 'x)) (let ((x 3)) (declare (special x)) (makunbound 'x)) (boundp 'x)) ?
2020-09-10T15:31:29Z beach: SBCL thinks that MAKUNBOUND influences only the innermost binding.
2020-09-10T15:31:35Z beach: So it returns T
2020-09-10T15:32:07Z antoszka read BCPL and thought "why am I sitting in a BCPL-related channel?"
2020-09-10T15:32:47Z beach: minion: What does BCPL stand for?
2020-09-10T15:32:47Z minion: Babacoote Contusion Prototypographer Leucocytopenia
2020-09-10T15:38:51Z jasom: I always read the spec as meaning makunbound only affects dynamic bindings, not lexical bindings
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2020-09-10T15:41:13Z jackdaniel: fmakunbound affects only a global environment (not the lexical one)
2020-09-10T15:41:32Z jasom: beach: Basic Combined Programming Language which was a simple language for bootstrapping other languages.  A stripped-down version called "B" was the basis for an obscure language used in a telephony company called "C"
2020-09-10T15:41:33Z jackdaniel: and makunbound talks about a value cell of symbol
2020-09-10T15:41:50Z jackdaniel: so should the dynamic binding be affected at all?
2020-09-10T15:42:23Z jasom: jackdaniel: symbol-value accesses the dynamic binding; the dynamic binding affects the value cell for the dynamic extent of the binding
2020-09-10T15:44:34Z jasom: oh but boundp specifically mentions the global environment, not the dynamic environment.  Are "Notes" normative?
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2020-09-10T15:46:07Z jasom: a strict reading of boundp would mean (progn (defvar *foo*) (let (*foo) (boundp *foo*))) ; => nil
2020-09-10T15:47:08Z jasom: well typo in the let, but you get the idea
2020-09-10T15:48:12Z beach: jasom: Yes, I was joking.  I kind of know about BCPL.
2020-09-10T15:49:26Z beach: jasom: Notes are not normative, and the example contradicts the note.
2020-09-10T15:50:26Z beach: jasom: Since there is no "value cell", it is unclear whether that terminology refers to the dynamic binding.
2020-09-10T15:50:42Z beach: jackdaniel: Yes, that's a good question.
2020-09-10T15:51:28Z jasom: well examples are also not normative
2020-09-10T15:51:33Z aap: i think what it says is that the global environment holds the dynamic bindings
2020-09-10T15:51:53Z jasom: aap: no, the dynamic environment holds the dynamic bindings
2020-09-10T15:52:04Z beach: aap: So that means that the standard has opinions on how we implement dynamic binding!!!
2020-09-10T15:52:16Z beach: jasom: Good point.
2020-09-10T15:52:20Z aap: <- not a language lawyer
2020-09-10T15:52:47Z jasom: aap: the global environment specifically refers to things with unlimited extent
2020-09-10T15:52:51Z beach: Oh, and I think the note is bogus.  It contrasts the global environment and lexical bindings.
2020-09-10T15:53:21Z beach: But it says nothing about the dynamic environment.
2020-09-10T15:53:25Z jasom: beach: I agree it should be global and/or dynamic environment
2020-09-10T15:54:10Z jasom: perhaps the note predates the spec making a distinction?  It seems likely that implementations of the day would implement dynamic bindings with unwind-protect and global bindings
2020-09-10T15:54:42Z beach: Yeah.  That's what I meant by the standard having opinions about implementation details.
2020-09-10T15:55:03Z beach: jasom: You mean "shallow binding".
2020-09-10T15:56:11Z jasom: beach: I stand corrected
2020-09-10T15:56:54Z beach: So it seems reasonable that MAKUNBOUND followed by BOUNDP in the same dynamic environment would return false.
2020-09-10T15:57:00Z beach: But what about my second example?
2020-09-10T15:57:03Z jasom: I meant unwind-protect and mutating the global environment
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2020-09-10T15:57:25Z beach: jasom: Yes, that's the very definition of shallow binding.
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2020-09-10T15:57:55Z beach: Should MAKUNBOUND influence every binding in the dynamic environment, or just the innermost one?
2020-09-10T15:58:08Z jasom: IMO the only sane definition of makunbound is to affect the innermost dynamic binding, but proper behavior need not follow my opinions on sanity
2020-09-10T15:58:22Z Bike: it's a common idiom to rebind dynamic variables to isolate things, like doing (let ((*x* *x*)) ...) and then a lot of PUSH or whatnot in the ellipsis. if makunbound was able to remove just the most recent binding the idiom would get weird sometimes
2020-09-10T15:58:31Z beach: jasom: So you agree with SBCL.  OK.
2020-09-10T15:58:40Z jasom: I also think that an implementation that performed either way would be conforming as the spec is ambiguous here
2020-09-10T15:58:46Z froggey: consider (progv '(x) '() (boundp 'x)) too, this "binds" X to be unbound
2020-09-10T15:58:56Z Bike: that's its own weird question
2020-09-10T15:59:03Z jasom: I think SBCL does it *right* I think that affecting all dynamic bindings would still be *conforming*
2020-09-10T15:59:36Z beach: froggey: Interesting.
2020-09-10T15:59:36Z jasom: or at least there is a strong argument that affecting all dynamic bindings would be conforming.
2020-09-10T15:59:55Z jackdaniel: maybe my intuition is naive, but I would find it the most natural for makunbound to affect only the variable value in the global environment, ignoring dynamic bindings
2020-09-10T16:00:40Z jackdaniel: as in (defvar *xxx* 42) (let ((*xxx* 13)) (makunbound '*xxx*) *xxx*) ;-> 13 ; *xxx* ;-> #<unbound>
2020-09-10T16:00:45Z jasom: I also think I'm above my paygrade talking about conformance when unlike 3 other people here, I don't work on one
2020-09-10T16:01:28Z Bike: eh, it's not like we're certified
2020-09-10T16:01:35Z beach: I think froggey's example supports SBCL's behavior.  Because it means that a variable can be unbound in the innermost dynamic environment only.
2020-09-10T16:01:36Z jackdaniel: and that would have at least superfluous similarity to fmakunbound
2020-09-10T16:01:39Z Bike: and i think of it was working like jackdaniel
2020-09-10T16:02:18Z jasom: Bike: it's not about certified, it's about being forced to think about these things to get other stuff accomplished.  It's a lot more abstract when you aren't "in the trenches"
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2020-09-10T16:02:47Z beach: jackdaniel: That's an interesting point of view.
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2020-09-10T16:03:59Z beach: Note to self: In WSCL, improve specification of the interaction between dynamic bindings, BOUNDP, and MAKUNBOUND.
2020-09-10T16:04:09Z jasom: jackdaniel: 1) I don't think you can dynamically bind functions 2) that *also* seems like it would conform to the specification though.
2020-09-10T16:05:18Z jasom: and the progv example froggey gives works as expected in SBCL in terms of "masking" a previously bound symbol
2020-09-10T16:05:40Z beach: I think this is the first issue that would have to be voted on, and only after a long reflection period by several implementation maintainers, including the commercial ones.
2020-09-10T16:06:13Z jackdaniel: jasom: that's why I've said, that the similarity will be only superfluous, more like an analogy than a mechanism
2020-09-10T16:06:13Z jasom: beach: it would be nice to have a table of what each implementation does for each permutation of boundp/progv/let/makunmound
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2020-09-10T16:06:50Z beach: jasom: Absolutely!  I am looking forward to seeing some volunteers.
2020-09-10T16:07:39Z jasom: John Regehr wrote a "undefined behavior" test suite for C implementations that documents what compilers do with varoius undefined behaviors
2020-09-10T16:07:56Z beach: Would he do the same for Common Lisp? :)
2020-09-10T16:07:59Z jasom: I guess I just volunteered to start one for lisp
2020-09-10T16:08:10Z beach: Excellent!
2020-09-10T16:08:24Z jackdaniel: call it cl-autoconf ,p
2020-09-10T16:08:32Z beach: Heh!
2020-09-10T16:08:56Z jasom: somewhere lying around I have a tool to run 6 different implementations of lisp on linux.  I hope implementations don't differ between windows/linux/os X for non-syscall affecting things but I wouldn't put it past them
2020-09-10T16:09:16Z jackdaniel: cl-launch also allows running things
2020-09-10T16:09:34Z jackdaniel: I have a half-baked lisp-driver to run various lisp implementations with cl-bench / ansi-test
2020-09-10T16:09:39Z jackdaniel: (but not on this computer)
2020-09-10T16:09:41Z jasom: I was working on a portable way of accessing errno, but had to abort and start from scratch when I discovered one of the commercial implementations clears errno before every foreign call
2020-09-10T16:10:02Z jackdaniel: and it is different from cl-launch by that it is full implemented in lisp (i.e you invoke other implementations from working lisp environment)
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2020-09-10T16:11:01Z beach: So in the case of SBCL's behavior, for shallow binding, the implementation would be simple.  If the variable has a dynamic binding, then just set the thread-specific value cell to `unbound', and if not, set the value cell in the global environment to `unbound'.
2020-09-10T16:11:02Z beach: In the case of deep binding, If there is a dynamic binding, then set the cell of that dynamic binding to `unbound', and if not, set the global value cell to `unbound'.
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2020-09-10T16:12:07Z kreyren_: So everything in lisp is an object, does that mean that it's object oriented language?
2020-09-10T16:12:32Z beach: kreyren_: Not everything in Lisp is an object.  We had a long discussion about that the other day.
2020-09-10T16:12:49Z jasom: kreyren_: that's a Rorschach test for what you think "object oriented" means
2020-09-10T16:12:58Z beach: kreyren_: But yes, object orientation is one of the paradigms that Common Lisp allows.
2020-09-10T16:12:59Z kreyren_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmUTW5QWhhM&list=PL2VAYZE_4wRJi_vgpjsH75kMhN4KsuzR_&index=2&pbjreload=101 that's what beggar says can you provide reasoning to that so that i can blame then?
2020-09-10T16:13:14Z jasom: kreyren_: the C spec likely refers to "object" so is C object oriented?
2020-09-10T16:13:55Z beach: kreyren_: Like I said in that long discussion, statements like that, when scrutinized, end up being equivalent to "every object is an object".
2020-09-10T16:14:12Z kreyren_: o.o
2020-09-10T16:14:18Z kreyren_ is even more confused
2020-09-10T16:14:21Z beach: kreyren_: A place is not an object, a comment is not an object.  Just for starters.
2020-09-10T16:14:56Z kreyren_: comment is always a comment that is ignored by the interpreted/compiler so how is that valid?
2020-09-10T16:15:00Z beach: kreyren_: I *really* don't feel like repeating all the example again.  I suggest you check the logs.
2020-09-10T16:15:01Z jasom: C99 s3.14 "Object: region of data storage in the execution environment, the contents of which can represent values."  C has objects, QED.
2020-09-10T16:15:02Z kreyren_: and what is a place?
2020-09-10T16:15:23Z kreyren_: beach, i joined today ..
2020-09-10T16:15:26Z beach: kreyren_: So a comment is not a "thing"?
2020-09-10T16:15:27Z kreyren_: no logs on my end
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2020-09-10T16:15:37Z jasom: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp
2020-09-10T16:15:41Z kreyren_: beach, i would think so for said reasoning?
2020-09-10T16:15:45Z kreyren_: jasom, thanks!
2020-09-10T16:16:21Z jasom: kreyren_: Well maybe everything reified is an object, which then boils down to every object is an object.  I'll read backlogs too to not retread this...
2020-09-10T16:16:23Z beach: kreyren_: When you eliminate all the cases like that, you are left with "every Lisp datum is an object", which is a tautology, because the glossary defines "object" as "any Lisp datum".
2020-09-10T16:16:58Z kreyren_: why not call that datum then
2020-09-10T16:17:06Z beach: Who cares?
2020-09-10T16:17:09Z beach: It is just a name.
2020-09-10T16:17:18Z beach: You can use datum if you like.  They are the same.
2020-09-10T16:17:44Z kreyren_: i see O.o that actually told me what i needed to know thanku ^-^
2020-09-10T16:17:54Z beach: Anytime.
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2020-09-10T16:18:46Z jasom: While I'm hesitant to quote paul graham, as doing so in a lisp discussion is a bit on-the-nose, he didn't actually write this, so http://www.paulgraham.com/reesoo.html
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2020-09-10T16:20:42Z kreyren_: is lisp evaluated from top to bottom?
2020-09-10T16:21:36Z jasom: kreyren_: the not-very-useful, but complete answer is "read all of http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_.htm"
2020-09-10T16:22:16Z jasom: kreyren_: the TL;DR answer is "yes, but not always in a single-pass, so you have to be careful in some cases"
2020-09-10T16:22:16Z beach: kreyren_: It uses "innermost evaluation" or "call by value" like most implementations.
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2020-09-10T16:22:38Z jasom: oh, I read kreyren_'s question to be about top-level forms
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2020-09-10T16:22:53Z beach: kreyren_: But the values are (semantically speaking) references to objects.
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2020-09-10T16:23:22Z jasom: (foo (bar (baz))) is evaluated insde-out, just like foo(bar(baz())) would be in a c-like syntax language
2020-09-10T16:23:23Z beach: kreyren_: So nothing is every implicitly copied in Common Lisp.  I call this type of semantics "uniform reference semantics".
2020-09-10T16:24:27Z beach: kreyren_: As it turns out, it's the only sane semantics if you want to stay sane as a programmer.  Which is why I don't touch languages such as C++.
2020-09-10T16:24:39Z kreyren_: jasom, so it's avaluated as baz->bar->foo
2020-09-10T16:24:40Z kreyren_: ?
2020-09-10T16:24:50Z jasom: kreyren_: right
2020-09-10T16:25:00Z beach: kreyren_: yes, that's what "innermost evaluation" means.
2020-09-10T16:25:03Z kreyren_: beach, i am already insane! no need for sane :p but i like my code sane
2020-09-10T16:25:24Z kreyren_: jasom, beach, makes sense thanks
2020-09-10T16:25:38Z jasom: I think C++ has every call-by method except "name" at this point...
2020-09-10T16:25:53Z kreyren_: but (foo)\n(bar) then the foo is evaluated first right?
2020-09-10T16:25:56Z beach: jasom: You may very well be right.
2020-09-10T16:26:07Z beach: kreyren_: Yes, evaluation is left-to-right.
2020-09-10T16:26:41Z beach: Unless you break it by writing a bad macro.
2020-09-10T16:26:45Z jasom: kreyren_: that goes back to my first answer.  "yes with a but" and you don't need to worry about the but until you write macros
2020-09-10T16:26:57Z kreyren_: i see O.o
2020-09-10T16:27:18Z kreyren_: is there any nice reference to data-types?
2020-09-10T16:27:39Z kreyren_ is confused by variable vs symbol in lisp
2020-09-10T16:27:39Z beach: kreyren_: The Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2020-09-10T16:27:49Z jasom: kreyren_: http://clhs.lisp.se/Front/Contents.htm chapters 8-21 is a good reference, but not necessarily the best for learning
2020-09-10T16:28:03Z beach: kreyren_: Symbols are first-class objects that can be names of variables.
2020-09-10T16:28:18Z beach: kreyren_: But symbols can be used for many other things as well.
2020-09-10T16:28:19Z jasom: pcl is a good overview if you already have programming experience
2020-09-10T16:28:23Z jasom: minion: tell kreyren_ about pcl
2020-09-10T16:28:23Z minion: kreyren_: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-09-10T16:28:41Z beach: kreyren_: What languages do you already know?
2020-09-10T16:28:54Z kreyren_ is experienced programmer, but he sees elisp as a mindfuck.. lisp so far makes sense ^-^
2020-09-10T16:29:41Z kreyren_: beach, basically all languages including C and Rustlang
2020-09-10T16:29:49Z kreyren_: where i like rustlang the most atm~
2020-09-10T16:29:49Z tychoish: I feel like elisp and cl are like... more alike  than they're different
2020-09-10T16:30:13Z kreyren_: tychoish, ye but i hate the forced indentation standard by emacs~
2020-09-10T16:30:25Z kreyren_: using custom made indentation it's quite pleasent
2020-09-10T16:30:30Z beach: kreyren_: I think you will find that the underlying principles of Common Lisp are much simpler than those of languages without automatic memory management.
2020-09-10T16:31:07Z kreyren_: minion, i have dyslexia so learning from a book is not doing it for me..
2020-09-10T16:31:08Z minion: kreyren_: i agree - you have dyslexia so learning from a book is not doing it
2020-09-10T16:31:17Z kreyren_: ah my bad~
2020-09-10T16:31:29Z kreyren_: (he is a bot right)
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2020-09-10T16:31:41Z beach: kreyren_: If you want to expose your Common Lisp code here for feedback, you should definitely comply with the indentation rules that the conventions dictate.  Or you won't get much help.
2020-09-10T16:32:01Z kreyren_: ahw >.<
2020-09-10T16:32:18Z beach: kreyren_: Common Lisp programmers understand code by the indentation, and not by counting parentheses.  It is very rude to demand that the person reading your code count parentheses.
2020-09-10T16:32:42Z beach: kreyren_: I for one stop reading the code when I can't rely on the indentation being correct.
2020-09-10T16:33:01Z beach: kreyren_: So you will get a lot less help if you invent your own indentation rules.
2020-09-10T16:33:07Z kreyren_: Is emacs going to auto-indent the expected indentation for common-lisp?
2020-09-10T16:33:12Z jasom: kreyren_: yup
2020-09-10T16:33:15Z kreyren_: good~
2020-09-10T16:33:43Z beach: kreyren_: Specifically, I recommend you use the slime-indentation contribution, which I understand is now the default for SLIME.
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2020-09-10T16:34:16Z kreyren_: what's slime?
2020-09-10T16:35:42Z kreyren_: `( + 1 2 )` is this valid?
2020-09-10T16:35:49Z kreyren_: or does it have to be (+ 1 2)
2020-09-10T16:36:14Z kreyren_ is not sure if `(+` is special thing 
2020-09-10T16:36:21Z jasom: kreyren_: whitespace is fine between those
2020-09-10T16:36:27Z kreyren_: thanks
2020-09-10T16:36:29Z kelamir[m]: SLIME allows you to interact with Lisp from Emacs. You can run the above command (+ 1 2) with SLIME.
2020-09-10T16:36:31Z jasom: kreyren_: other than driving people reading it insane :)
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2020-09-10T16:37:28Z kreyren_: kelamir[m], is SLIME present in Emacs by default or do i have to add it ?
2020-09-10T16:37:46Z kreyren_: ah i have to add it
2020-09-10T16:38:25Z kreyren_: https://i.imgur.com/QRc7obJ.png is this normal for Common-lisp ? to get a nice error messages alike?
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2020-09-10T16:38:31Z kreyren_ never got these on elisp
2020-09-10T16:40:05Z kelamir[m]: kreyren_: if you prefer video format, you could check out this channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1J47RqBfY6VgLUZ5YSYkqw I find the vids nice, Neil Munro explains how to set things up and shows how things are done well.
2020-09-10T16:40:21Z kreyren_: kelamir[m], thanku will check!
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2020-09-10T16:43:55Z xristos: kreyren_: hope you're better behaved here
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2020-09-10T16:44:26Z kreyren_: xristos, eh?
2020-09-10T16:44:28Z dra_ is now known as dra
2020-09-10T16:44:28Z xristos: fyi, kreyren has been banned from #emacs for "support vampiring, learned helplessness, and needless antagonism"
2020-09-10T16:44:46Z dra: Hello!
2020-09-10T16:45:30Z kreyren_: xristos, i am same everywhere~ ##emacs doesn't like me asking too much questions in their channel though O.o
2020-09-10T16:45:40Z kelamir[m]: Hello, Dra! How's Lisping going? I didn't answer last time, I was doing well 😇
2020-09-10T16:45:42Z kreyren_: which i don't need to do in terms of lisp that much anyway
2020-09-10T16:46:22Z dra: kelamir[m]: No worries. ;) Doing fine!
2020-09-10T16:47:04Z kelamir[m]: What are you working on?
2020-09-10T16:47:04Z dra: It it possible to FTYPE-declare a function to return an exact number of values?
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2020-09-10T16:47:49Z kreyren_: xristos, also #lisp people seems to provide the information needed quicker and more accurately.. #emacs likes to confuse things from my experience
2020-09-10T16:48:16Z dra: kelamir[m]: Working through Anatomy of Lisp. Fun read!
2020-09-10T16:57:10Z kelamir[m]: Sounds interesting. What do you find fun about it, dra?
2020-09-10T16:57:10Z kelamir[m]: *that sounds more like a medicine title*
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2020-09-10T17:03:33Z dra: kelamir[m]: It develops a theoretical understanding of Lisp. It does so assuming that you know very little about Lisp while at the same time expecting you to think along.
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2020-09-10T17:07:32Z kelamir[m]: That must be fun 🙂
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2020-09-10T17:26:31Z dra: kelamir[m]: It is. Though I have read that some parts are outdated. But I haven't arrived at those parts yet.
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2020-09-10T19:06:00Z rpg: Has anyone there been able to load an OWL ontology into a CL program? I have found wilbur, but it is poorly documented, and I was wondering if anyone has tried anything different.
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2020-09-10T19:24:35Z asarch: ObjectWindow Library?
2020-09-10T19:26:04Z rpg: asarch: Thanks, but.... this would be for Linux, and MacOS, and I think that's windows only?
2020-09-10T19:26:51Z asarch: Take a look at cl-cffi-gtk
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2020-09-10T19:27:41Z asarch: You can easily reuse all your Glade templates from other programming languages
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2020-09-10T20:10:14Z Smolengrad: lisp is annoying.
2020-09-10T20:10:21Z phoe: wait, why, how
2020-09-10T20:10:25Z phoe: which part exactly
2020-09-10T20:10:42Z Smolengrad: its not user friendly
2020-09-10T20:11:00Z phoe: what exactly do you mean by a lack of user friendliness
2020-09-10T20:11:02Z White_Flame: it really increases my annoyance with other languages
2020-09-10T20:11:46Z Smolengrad: take an example from pithon2.7
2020-09-10T20:11:50Z Smolengrad: its nice a friendly to use
2020-09-10T20:11:55Z aeth: it's also a dead language
2020-09-10T20:12:27Z Smolengrad: no its not
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2020-09-10T20:13:28Z Smolengrad: its very active
2020-09-10T20:13:31Z aeth: This isn't a channel for roasting other languages, but Python's lambda syntax is so awful it might as well not have a lambda. Python is very opinionated toward iterative programming and barely has any functional programming functionality. It's competing in a different space than Lisps are. In some Lisps, almost everything's ultimately a lambda.
2020-09-10T20:13:59Z White_Flame: and yeah, 2.7 is dead
2020-09-10T20:14:08Z Smolengrad: but at least it has a favicon.
2020-09-10T20:14:16Z White_Flame: any activity can be attributed to lingering shamblers ;)
2020-09-10T20:14:25Z phoe: if this is a trolling attempt, then this is a poor trolling attempt
2020-09-10T20:14:46Z Smolengrad: do you use snort to detect trolling alertz ?
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2020-09-10T20:15:23Z phoe: no, I use my own eyes; you came here as a new face and start posting flamebait from the very start instead of adding something constructive.
2020-09-10T20:15:33Z phoe: I would suggest #lispcafe for such instead of #lisp
2020-09-10T20:15:47Z Smolengrad: no
2020-09-10T20:15:52Z Smolengrad: you go there
2020-09-10T20:15:55Z Smolengrad: i am staying here
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2020-09-10T20:16:02Z Smolengrad: Phoebe ;)
2020-09-10T20:16:08Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe
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2020-09-10T20:16:09Z Smolengrad [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe ((progn (trivial-garbage:gc :full t) (print "no, you're not") nil))
2020-09-10T20:16:10Z aeth: If you go into Python expecting to write code like in CL or Scheme, you're going to have a bad time because of the limited FP/lambda/etc. And in Python 3, the output from stuff like map can only be used once, too, which is incredibly surprising.
2020-09-10T20:16:12Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe
2020-09-10T20:16:14Z aeth: And assuming you're not just trolling, it looks like you came into Lisp expecting to write Python, and similarly had a bad time, but that doesn't make either Lisp or Python a bad language, just different languages with different expectations.
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2020-09-10T20:16:20Z phoe: aeth: sorry
2020-09-10T20:16:22Z Smolengrad: pussy hole
2020-09-10T20:16:22Z phoe: they've already left
2020-09-10T20:16:27Z Smolengrad: ;)
2020-09-10T20:16:28Z Smolengrad: Phoebe
2020-09-10T20:16:32Z Smolengrad: !!!!!!!!!
2020-09-10T20:16:34Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe
2020-09-10T20:16:36Z Smolengrad [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe ((progn (trivial-garbage:gc :full t) (print "no, you're not") nil))
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2020-09-10T20:16:48Z Smolengrad: fail
2020-09-10T20:16:49Z Smolengrad: fail
2020-09-10T20:16:52Z phoe: oh shit they came prepared
2020-09-10T20:16:55Z Smolengrad: Phoebe
2020-09-10T20:17:00Z White_Flame: tons of irc clients reconnect.  kicking has no usefulness nowadays
2020-09-10T20:17:13Z phoe: well yes but a +b should work
2020-09-10T20:17:22Z aeth: wrong +b syntax, I'm guessing
2020-09-10T20:17:25Z Smolengrad: well this proves how LISP shit is ...
2020-09-10T20:17:42Z Smolengrad: lisp is for virgins really.
2020-09-10T20:17:42Z aeth: phoe: redo your +b but replace sid461327 with *
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2020-09-10T20:17:46Z aeth: phoe: that's the only difference
2020-09-10T20:17:49Z Smolengrad: Phoebe
2020-09-10T20:17:55Z Smolengrad: call her Phoebe
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2020-09-10T20:18:27Z Smolengrad: o hai
2020-09-10T20:18:37Z Smolengrad: how are you fellers doing tonight
2020-09-10T20:18:45Z Smolengrad: hi Phoebe
2020-09-10T20:18:58Z phoe: well that is interesting
2020-09-10T20:19:10Z aeth: I'm surprised that people under 12 still use IRC.
2020-09-10T20:19:50Z Smolengrad: so what is everyone up to tonight ?
2020-09-10T20:19:57Z Smolengrad: lisp sucking ?
2020-09-10T20:20:04Z Josh_2: lul
2020-09-10T20:20:17Z _death: https://www.irccloud.com/abuse
2020-09-10T20:20:26Z Smolengrad: ^ go for it
2020-09-10T20:20:50Z Smolengrad: cry like a little girl
2020-09-10T20:20:59Z Smolengrad: pussy hole Phoebe !
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2020-09-10T20:21:30Z aeth: Smolengrad: If you keep trolling like this, I'm going to have to talk to your parents.
2020-09-10T20:21:47Z Smolengrad: no
2020-09-10T20:22:36Z Smolengrad: i think Phoe aka Phoebe are in need of a good spanking !
2020-09-10T20:22:52Z Smolengrad: 💩
2020-09-10T20:23:13Z Josh_2: xD
2020-09-10T20:23:33Z Smolengrad: i got leather belts, chains, whips
2020-09-10T20:23:51Z rpg: asarch: Ah, I see -- we were talking at cross-purposes!  The OWL I was referring to was the "Web Ontology Language" not the OpenWindows Library!
2020-09-10T20:24:08Z asarch: D'oh!
2020-09-10T20:24:09Z asarch: Ok
2020-09-10T20:24:21Z Smolengrad: yes OWL
2020-09-10T20:24:26Z Smolengrad: SUPER BOWL
2020-09-10T20:25:00Z Smolengrad: phoe
2020-09-10T20:25:08Z Smolengrad: can i contribute to list ?
2020-09-10T20:25:10Z Smolengrad: lisp ?
2020-09-10T20:25:15Z rpg was just thinking about how he hadn't used the IGNORE command for a while...
2020-09-10T20:25:32Z Smolengrad: let me ignore you first pal
2020-09-10T20:25:38Z Smolengrad: it works both ways
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2020-09-10T20:27:21Z aeth: rpg: This is off-topic, but with a nick like that, you really are the chosen one. You have to write an RPG RPG RPG RPG, i.e. a role-playing game (RPG) in IBM Report Program Generator (RPG) centered around rocket propelled grenades (RPG) written by rpg
2020-09-10T20:28:04Z rpg: aeth: That (well really because of Richard P. Gabriel) is why I'm NotThatRpg...
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2020-09-10T20:29:31Z phoe: FYI: #lisp had a ban exeption set on *!*@gateway/web/irccloud.com/*
2020-09-10T20:29:37Z phoe: this is no longer the case.
2020-09-10T20:29:43Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe
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2020-09-10T20:29:57Z aeth: ah
2020-09-10T20:30:00Z phoe: in case this (somehow?) breaks someone's workflow: please let me know.
2020-09-10T20:31:13Z White_Flame: well, nobody else has been immediately swept up, so it's probably okay
2020-09-10T20:31:23Z White_Flame: does the current +b just contain their sid?
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2020-09-10T20:31:54Z phoe: aeth: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2048#2048
2020-09-10T20:31:57Z phoe: it's a bit more complicated
2020-09-10T20:32:39Z phoe: holy hell I have made so many bans :(
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2020-09-10T20:34:56Z White_Flame: at least smolengrad is triple-banned now ;)
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2020-09-10T20:37:16Z aeth: rpg: no, if you want a unique name you just need a title to prefix your name with... but make it really unique, like, say, "mmo"
2020-09-10T20:37:50Z rpg: aeth: Well, I'm NotThatRpg on Twitter, so I think I'll stick with that...
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2020-09-10T20:43:11Z _death: in CL we have multiple namespaces, so both of you can have "RPG" as a name
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2020-09-10T20:52:58Z rpg: _death: I'll be LESS-FAMOUS::RPG
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2020-09-10T20:55:46Z _death: (eq 'LESS-FAMOUS::RPG 'CL-BRITY:RPG) ==> NIL
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2020-09-10T21:02:17Z alandipert: haha
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2020-09-10T21:07:39Z Alfr_: LESS-FAMOUS is too long, may I use local nicknames?
2020-09-10T21:08:24Z phoe: WHO?::RPG
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2020-09-10T21:14:21Z Alfr_: <F:RPG is nice, I think.
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2020-09-10T21:16:42Z aeth: Yeah, but the most famous "RPG" is probably WoW (computers) or D&D (overall)... so you still get a name collision issue if you're just talking about a less famous use of the letters "RPG"
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2020-09-10T21:18:26Z aeth: If you want a unique identifier, you're going to have to be more creative.
2020-09-10T21:18:50Z aeth: maybe use *gensym-counter*
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2020-09-10T21:21:57Z edgar-rft: the most famous RPG on #lisp should be Robert P. Goldman -> https://rpgoldman.goldman-tribe.org/rpg-cv.html
2020-09-10T21:23:06Z _death: that RPG even appears in the acknowledgements section of Pearl's famous book ;)
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2020-09-10T21:43:51Z phoe: aeth: how about Rocket-Propelled Grenade
2020-09-10T21:44:00Z phoe: the most dangerous rpg I can think of
2020-09-10T21:44:17Z aeth: phoe: see the RPG RPG RPG RPG earlier.
2020-09-10T21:45:00Z phoe: yes
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2020-09-10T22:08:06Z markasoftware: Can I provide a documentation to defvar while leaving the variable unbound?
2020-09-10T22:08:28Z phoe: it's gonna be SETF DOCUMENTATION time for you
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2020-09-10T22:09:10Z phoe: DEFVAR alone can't do that.
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2020-09-10T22:29:23Z markasoftware: Could somebody double-check this will work as I expect? http://ix.io/2x8a
2020-09-10T22:30:07Z markasoftware: The goal is to modify places passed in as arguments to functions (not macros) using a couple utility macros, place and with-places
2020-09-10T22:30:15Z markasoftware: i tested basic cases already
2020-09-10T22:32:23Z phoe: places, passed in as arguments to functions?...
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2020-09-10T22:33:30Z phoe: you have just reimplemented cl-locatives
2020-09-10T22:33:43Z phoe: Xach: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-locatives is dead
2020-09-10T22:34:47Z phoe: stylewarning: is this a library of yours?
2020-09-10T22:34:53Z markasoftware: i should've known this wasn't a new idea!
2020-09-10T22:35:43Z markasoftware: But I still like my `with-places` function, which makes it much more transparent, no longer requiring explicit dereferencing and writing. And that's the part of my code I'm worried may have subtle bugs.
2020-09-10T22:35:52Z markasoftware: s/function/macro
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2020-09-11T00:16:10Z Bike: i guess there's a sort of issue in that if you have, like, (aref x (incf y)) as a place, the incf will only be executed once probably, even if you repeatedly use the setter function
2020-09-11T00:24:39Z stylewarning: phoe: yes
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2020-09-11T00:56:38Z White_Flame: Bike: and then what would (incf <locative for (aref x (incf y))>) be most sensible to do?
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2020-09-11T01:25:27Z ldb: good morning
2020-09-11T01:25:41Z Josh_2: Hi
2020-09-11T01:27:49Z ldb: White_Flame: > and then what would (incf <locative for (aref x (incf y))>) ... in principle, that should be undefined behavior
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2020-09-11T02:36:59Z borei: good morning/afternoon everybody !
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2020-09-11T02:41:34Z ldb: HELLO borei
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2020-09-11T02:48:27Z borei: don't know if my question very basic, but i can't find answer for it. In C i can treat array as  chunk of memory, using (char *) i can use it as a sequence of bytes, i can dump that chunk of binary data to the file, but i can't find how does lisp approach to this problem
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2020-09-11T02:49:47Z borei: more explicit problem is i have array of floats, i need to work with it like with array of bytes.
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2020-09-11T02:50:56Z no-defun-allowed: Not easily; I don't think Common Lisp specifies a float representation, but there are libraries that you can use to convert floats to bytes and back which could help.
2020-09-11T02:51:39Z no-defun-allowed: (write (ieee-floats:encode-float32 1.0) :base 16) ; writes 3F800000
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2020-09-11T02:56:13Z borei: well not necessary float it can array of the items of any type, i just need to treat it as block of data, not looking at the type of the items. type can be specified later.
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2020-09-11T02:56:50Z no-defun-allowed: That is not going to happen.
2020-09-11T02:57:28Z borei: ic
2020-09-11T02:58:12Z no-defun-allowed: In C, the representation of all the data you would write is probably undefined, and in CL only more so, as you can't portably make an array of a different type with the memory of another.
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2020-09-11T03:26:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-11T04:16:45Z ldb: borei: I think you are looking for serialization
2020-09-11T04:17:40Z ldb: https://www.cliki.net/serialization
2020-09-11T04:19:20Z ldb: there're vast implementations of this feature, and to different extents, but most of them works at least on builtin data types
2020-09-11T04:22:10Z ldb: but this is not meant to dump out an array of characters and read in as if it is something else like array of floats
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2020-09-11T04:40:14Z borei: looks like i can deal with the problem using cffi foreign memory, in any cases i need to pass that data further to cffi foreign functions. i just measured if there is any overhead loading data into native lisp array and into foreign pointer - not too much. for 10M double float native array - ~0.08 sec, foreign - ~0.10.
2020-09-11T04:46:04Z borei: side notice - im still surprised how fast lisp is (sbcl) - using native C implementation im getting the same numbers.
2020-09-11T04:46:49Z no-defun-allowed: From memory, referencing a foreign array is basically just one load instruction.
2020-09-11T04:49:38Z no-defun-allowed: With sufficient declarations, (cffi:mem-aref <a cffi:foreign-pointer> :char <a fixnum>) is MOVSX RDX, BYTE PTR [RAX+RDI] on SBCL on x86_64.
2020-09-11T04:56:37Z borei: declaration in your example in <> brackets  - is it real form ? don't recall such.
2020-09-11T04:57:24Z no-defun-allowed: It's a suggestion that you should put something of that type in the <...>.
2020-09-11T04:58:05Z borei: :ldb thanks for pointing me to serialization libraries
2020-09-11T04:59:55Z White_Flame: man, low-bit tags were such a performance enhancing idea for fixnums
2020-09-11T05:00:10Z White_Flame: (presuming the "SX" is sign extension)
2020-09-11T05:01:07Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
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2020-09-11T05:32:22Z beach: I am completely changing my opinions about Robert C Martin, also known as "Uncle Bob".  In the past, I thought he was an ignorant, fad-pushing buffoon.  After listening to his lectures entitled "Clean Code", I now think he is neither ignorant, nor fad-pushing.
2020-09-11T05:32:36Z beach: In fact, I think it's the exact opposite.  He is still a bit of a buffoon, but that's just his style.  I don't like it much, but it seems to work for him.
2020-09-11T05:32:37Z beach: And the reason I am mentioning it here, is that in the Q&A session at the end of lesson 4, he says that he wants Lisp to be one of the languages used in the future, because it combines "structured programming", "functional programming", and "object-oriented programming".  If he were just an ignorant, fad-pushing buffoon, he would not even know about Lisp.
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2020-09-11T05:35:14Z beach: So all you #lisp participants who work in industry where projects are managed by people who know nothing about software design, but who believe in "software gurus", you can now tell them that one of the most famous gurus wants you to use Lisp.
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2020-09-11T06:08:04Z ldb: never heard that person, although I heard "Clean Code”
2020-09-11T06:09:39Z ldb: I think I still would focus on one-man-week size projects for a long time
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2020-09-11T06:15:58Z jackdaniel: afair in one of his lectures he declared clojire the ultimate lisp to use ;)
2020-09-11T06:15:59Z aeth: to be fair, if you were pushing software fads for decades, you probably would've pushed Lisp 3-4 separate times...
2020-09-11T06:16:33Z flip214: Is there a way to kill a process started with UIOP/LAUNCH-PROGRAM
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2020-09-11T06:17:49Z jackdaniel: use terminate-process
2020-09-11T06:18:10Z jackdaniel: on the program reference
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2020-09-11T06:19:22Z ldb: see UIOP/LAUNCH-PROGRAM section of the UIOP manual for usage reference
2020-09-11T06:20:28Z flip214: ah, terminate. I looked for kill, stop, and similar stuff. Thanks!
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2020-09-11T06:56:54Z phoe: kill, stop, end, destroy, close, finish, remove, abort, annihilate
2020-09-11T06:57:00Z phoe: ahh the terminology
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2020-09-11T07:03:22Z jackdaniel: make-process-go-belly-up
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2020-09-11T07:05:29Z flip214: If I've got a stream with multiple XML blobs, can I use CXML in a loop to parse "incrementally"? CXML croaks "trash at end of input" (the next xml blob)
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2020-09-11T07:07:44Z jackdaniel: crash at end of input is a possibility :)
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2020-09-11T07:13:56Z flip214: jackdaniel: well, if I could get an item back, I'd be willing to put an IGNORE-ERRORS around...
2020-09-11T07:14:27Z flip214: guess I'll have to do manual buffering to separate the blobs
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2020-09-11T07:33:49Z flip214: I now used a CONCATENATED-STREAM to add start/end tags... I hope that'll work for my inputs and not get OOM some time in the future
2020-09-11T07:34:13Z wwolf[m]: flip214: I think Klacks parser may help:
2020-09-11T07:34:13Z wwolf[m]: https://common-lisp.net/project/cxml/klacks.html#sources
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2020-09-11T07:47:36Z flip214: there's no PEEK-BYTE or UNREAD-BYTE for streams, grrr.
2020-09-11T07:47:58Z flip214: wwolf[m]: yeah, I'm trying to do incremental parsing, but the whitespace bytes inbetween elements trip cxml as well
2020-09-11T07:52:41Z ldb: seems you are looking for grey streams
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2020-09-11T07:53:46Z flip214: IMO cxml is a bit fragile, inflexible, and the errors aren't helpful. ("expected ..." - but what did it see?)
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2020-09-11T07:57:04Z ebrasca: Is there someting like trivial-gcd (grand central dispatch) for common lisp ?
2020-09-11T07:57:12Z phoe: what's grand central dispatch?
2020-09-11T07:57:53Z ebrasca: phoe: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/dispatch
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2020-09-11T07:58:05Z phoe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Central_Dispatch says, "It is an implementation of task parallelism based on the thread pool pattern."
2020-09-11T07:58:10Z phoe: that's what lparallel does
2020-09-11T07:58:49Z ebrasca: phoe: "managed by the system"
2020-09-11T07:59:02Z phoe: you mean by the operating system
2020-09-11T07:59:15Z phoe: which means that you can't really have it in Common Lisp that is *not* an operating system
2020-09-11T07:59:21Z ebrasca: phoe: Mezzano does have someting like GCD.
2020-09-11T07:59:28Z phoe: yes
2020-09-11T07:59:34Z phoe: I can imagine so
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2020-09-11T08:01:59Z ebrasca: I feel something guilty for removing all unix and sbcl parts from http://wcp.sdf-eu.org/software/smta.lisp and adapting it only for Mezzano.
2020-09-11T08:02:30Z phoe: mind the license
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2020-09-11T08:03:39Z ebrasca: It is GPLv2 , I only need to keep it GPLv2 I think.
2020-09-11T08:04:06Z phoe: yes, just remember not to bundle it into the mezzano codebase.
2020-09-11T08:05:31Z ebrasca: Do you think someone outside mezzano is going to be interested in cl-smta ?
2020-09-11T08:05:55Z phoe: I can't answer that question since I don't know, I'm just pointing out possible licensing issues
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2020-09-11T08:06:12Z phoe: Mezzano is MIT and you don't want to pollute it with GPL code if it is supposed to stay MIT
2020-09-11T08:07:25Z ebrasca: I think pollute is bad word, why not mix?
2020-09-11T08:07:34Z ebrasca: phoe: Thanks!
2020-09-11T08:07:56Z phoe: "pollute" implies that turning the whole project GPL is unwanted
2020-09-11T08:08:23Z phoe: and I usually assume that if some code is MIT-licensed then it is MIT-licensed purposefully, and therefore relicensing it GPL is unwanted
2020-09-11T08:09:02Z ebrasca: Why adding some GPL make it GPL?
2020-09-11T08:09:16Z phoe: because that is what the GPL says.
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2020-09-11T08:11:45Z phoe: all code that is a derivative work of GPL code must be licensed under GPL, and bundling GPL code within some other application and then having other code depend on that GPL code is the best way to create such a derivative work.
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2020-09-11T08:22:36Z jackdaniel: so having gcc on osx makes whole operating system gpl?
2020-09-11T08:23:00Z jackdaniel: or using cl-smtp with sbcl renders the latter gpl?
2020-09-11T08:23:50Z jackdaniel: also "mere aggregation is not a derivative work"
2020-09-11T08:23:51Z ldb: well, gcc doesn't link with OS X's system components
2020-09-11T08:25:42Z jackdaniel: it is not linking model what defines a derivative work, however literal wording in the license mentions vague terms like linking or objects
2020-09-11T08:25:46Z aeth: Separation in a CL image is a lot less clear. At the very least, you shouldn't bundle GPL software with a non-GPL Lisp OS imo.
2020-09-11T08:25:53Z aeth: If someone else loads in GPL software, it's on them.
2020-09-11T08:26:04Z jackdaniel: it was clarified in many places, also by fsf
2020-09-11T08:26:36Z jackdaniel: and lispworks lawyers n.b, talking about lisp
2020-09-11T08:26:58Z jdz: If any code in Mezzano depends on GPL code to function then it will be considered a derivative work.
2020-09-11T08:27:06Z jackdaniel: so spreading misinformation is either ignorant or malicious towards gpl ;)
2020-09-11T08:27:18Z jackdaniel: yes, what jdz  says is true
2020-09-11T08:27:31Z moon-child: I agree with aeth.  The presence of the symbols in the image alongside system components seems like it make a derivative work.  Certainly, it's difficult to ensure there are no other components that accidentally call into the smtp lib
2020-09-11T08:27:44Z jackdaniel: ^ fud
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2020-09-11T08:30:05Z aeth: The issue is distinguishing between applications, which isn't necessarily as clear in an exotic Lisp OS as it is in something closer to a Unix-like or Windows one.
2020-09-11T08:30:50Z aeth: I don't know enough details to know if it's safe, but I wouldn't assume out of the box that it's safe, especially since the FSF's clarifications for the GPL and Lisp are almost certainly going to be in the context of Unix-like OSes.
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2020-09-11T08:31:15Z phoe: ...with a license that was clearly only created to be used with Unix-like or Windows systems and C-like programming languages, given the "linking" terms used there
2020-09-11T08:31:22Z phoe: but that's already been clarified multiple times anyway
2020-09-11T08:31:30Z aeth: As long as the base license is GPL-compatible, there's no issue for users, of course.
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2020-09-11T08:36:46Z aeth: phoe: LGPL is the really problematic license to apply because linking really matters there, but this channel has had that conversation before here and I'd still trust the LGPL over the custom-license LLGPL. (never use a non-OSI/non-FSF license for FOSS code! NEVER!) But my interpretation of the LGPL as applied to CL would still be pretty awkward in practice, since you'd have to have it reloadable/replacable as a separate FASL rather than bu
2020-09-11T08:37:01Z aeth: rather than bundled as a monolithic application.
2020-09-11T08:37:30Z phoe: only in case of lgpl3 which has the anti-tivoization clause
2020-09-11T08:37:38Z aeth: ah, good point
2020-09-11T08:37:45Z phoe: lgpl2 does not have it.
2020-09-11T08:38:33Z aeth: and the GPLv3 has similar clauses, so it might be similarly problematic, then. From a distribution standpoint I mean... since CL applications (rather than QLed libraries) want to be monoliths.
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2020-09-11T08:40:12Z ebrasca: What about GPLv3 working on ROM?
2020-09-11T08:41:01Z aeth: (By "monolith", I mean, creating an executable save-lisp-and-die or whatever the equivalent is, rather than starting the Lisp image bare like running "sbcl --script" and loading the FASLs from ~/.cache/common-lisp/ or wherever.)
2020-09-11T08:41:20Z aeth: ebrasca: sounds like it would be "tivoized"
2020-09-11T08:43:38Z jackdaniel: as I've said, business with linking and lisp images has been clarified by both lawyers and fsf, so it is still fud
2020-09-11T08:44:28Z jackdaniel: (either ignorance or malice - driven)
2020-09-11T08:46:35Z aeth: At the very least, strict adherance to the spirit of anti-tivoization might require something like uiop:with-upgradability...
2020-09-11T08:52:18Z jackdaniel: you also need an available (to the end user) interface to load either a fasl or some other form of the *gpl3 library
2020-09-11T08:53:48Z aeth: Yes, you might be able to argue that just giving REPL access is good enough, although inlining (part of what with-upgradability solves) and macros could still be problematic. And possibly packages/structs, too, depending on the Lisp.
2020-09-11T08:56:14Z aeth: But I think in theory, you can do the correct surgery required just with REPL/swank access even in something that doesn't like certain redefinitions like SBCL. Worst case just unintern the symbol and very quickly provide the new definition while recompiling all users, I guess.
2020-09-11T08:58:00Z jackdaniel: repl is not always part of the final application, also end user may have no access to the cli etc (i.e app on the camera device). sure, things should not be inlined in that case
2020-09-11T08:58:47Z aeth: Without REPL access, I think you'd probably need to keep everything as separate FASLs (or at least provide a mechanism so they're overridable as separate FASLs) with no macros and with uiop:with-upgradability.
2020-09-11T08:59:35Z aeth: (I mean no exported macros in the GPLed interfaces)
2020-09-11T08:59:57Z aeth: Perhaps you could just track the users of macros and recompile them, though.
2020-09-11T09:02:43Z jackdaniel: macros are part of the compiler, they are not part of runtime, hence there is no need to recompile macro users --given that it will work correctly without recompilation)
2020-09-11T09:03:15Z jackdaniel: that was sloppily worded
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2020-09-11T09:03:26Z jackdaniel: they are in the runtime of course
2020-09-11T09:03:59Z aeth: if you replace a(n L)GPLed library for an application without recompiling the application, macros might break because the macroexpanded code might now be nonsense to the new API of the library.
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2020-09-11T09:04:09Z jackdaniel: but the result of prior compilation is not obligued to be recompiled
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2020-09-11T09:04:45Z jackdaniel: yes, that's why I noted "given that it will work correctly"
2020-09-11T09:05:12Z aeth: if what you're saying is true, I think you could intentionally circumvent the license using
2020-09-11T09:05:16Z jackdaniel: a good practice to achieve that is to have macros always expand to a separate finction
2020-09-11T09:05:16Z aeth: macros
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2020-09-11T09:05:25Z jackdaniel: i.e invoke-with-foo
2020-09-11T09:06:12Z jackdaniel: you may always be the bad guy, sure ;)
2020-09-11T09:06:14Z phoe: I mean, that's the case with C style macros, too, isn't it? if some code uses C style macros and the newly loaded shared object doesn't have the proper C symbols or the API has changed of the functions that are called as a result of macroexpansion, then stuff will break
2020-09-11T09:06:42Z jackdaniel: yes
2020-09-11T09:06:43Z phoe: it's not really specific to Lisp, even though Lisp has macros that are more advanced than just C preprocessor text operations
2020-09-11T09:06:51Z phoe: it doesn't matter in the end though, breakage can happen
2020-09-11T09:06:56Z aeth: jackdaniel: Your invoke-with-foo style probably would work for "anti-tivoization" libraries.
2020-09-11T09:08:24Z aeth: phoe: I thought, at the very least, that the intent of the LLGPL is that the user can replace the old version of $library_foo with a new version of $library_foo without recompiling the applications that use $library_foo.
2020-09-11T09:08:56Z aeth: Of course, at this point, it's best to talk about the intent, rather than license specifics (it would be amusing if this conversation eventually sparks the necessity for a GPLv4, though!)
2020-09-11T09:09:08Z aeth: s/the necessity/the need/
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2020-09-11T09:10:31Z aeth: In a sense, CL makes it more possible to do this (upgrade a library without recompiling the user) than most languages.
2020-09-11T09:10:58Z phoe: aeth: reading this literally means that you can't really use macros or other compile-time features across module boundaries
2020-09-11T09:11:12Z aeth: phoe: right.
2020-09-11T09:11:14Z phoe: especially if they are useful in any way
2020-09-11T09:11:26Z phoe: ...or that you need to bundle a compiler in your application that will solve this issue for you :D
2020-09-11T09:12:13Z aeth: Clearly, a good CL would track the users of macros and inline functions and recompile the user when the source is recompiled so nothing is stale.
2020-09-11T09:13:31Z aeth: Not quite in the spirit of "without recompiling", but, hey, CL is weird like that. The main thing is that the application itself doesn't need to know about it.
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2020-09-11T09:49:34Z jdz: aeth: Have you read the email thread about clisp's "adoption" of GPL?
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2020-09-11T09:49:52Z phoe: the "CLISP being a derivative of GNU readline" one?
2020-09-11T09:49:57Z jdz: Yeah.
2020-09-11T09:51:51Z aeth: I probably read it a really long time ago
2020-09-11T09:52:08Z phoe: https://gitlab.com/gnu-clisp/clisp/blob/dd313099db351c90431c1c90332192edce2bb5c9/doc/Why-CLISP-is-under-GPL ?
2020-09-11T09:54:07Z jdz: phoe: That's the one!
2020-09-11T09:56:19Z phoe: "If you do succeed in circumventing the GPL for readline, you would be blazing a path for every commercial company that wants to do it. Would you really like that result?
2020-09-11T09:56:22Z phoe: "
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2020-09-11T09:58:22Z xantoz: isn't there non-GPL alternatives to readline these days, though?
2020-09-11T09:58:40Z phoe: companies did that anyway though
2020-09-11T09:59:04Z phoe: and the latter "can interfaces be copyrighted?" question turned into the famous Oracle vs. Google lawsuit
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2020-09-11T10:33:13Z ebrasca: phoe: How much code can I use without having to use GPLv2?
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2020-09-11T12:39:58Z shka_: hello
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2020-09-11T12:40:36Z shka_: i want to use cl-store for serialization of class objects
2020-09-11T12:40:49Z shka_: so (cl-store:store (find-class ... kind of stuff
2020-09-11T12:41:05Z shka_: question: is this portable?
2020-09-11T12:42:04Z Josh_2: Afternoon all
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2020-09-11T12:49:17Z michael`: Does anyone know what's going on with the SBCL website?
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2020-09-11T12:52:53Z phoe: http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/
2020-09-11T12:53:22Z Alfr_: shka_, portable for an implementation by itself, probably as cl-store claims to support it. The output being successfully read back in any other implementation than you created it with, most likely no. Btw. what do you expect to happen when you restore it?
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2020-09-11T12:54:46Z shka_: i expect that i can (setf (find-class 'foo) ...
2020-09-11T12:54:52Z shka_: with that object
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2020-09-11T13:04:34Z contrapunctus: o/
2020-09-11T13:04:55Z contrapunctus: The cl-advice library seems to have vanished 😶
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2020-09-11T13:05:17Z contrapunctus: The * repository of
2020-09-11T13:05:26Z contrapunctus: https://bitbucket.org/budden/budden-tools/src/default/cl-advice/
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2020-09-11T13:08:55Z michael`: phoe: I meant sbcl.org, seems to be down for the past couple of days.
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2020-09-11T13:11:32Z phoe: michael`: I don't know, it seems to have dropped out of DNS
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2020-09-11T13:23:21Z Josh_2: is there a reader form to check if a system has multi-threading support?
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2020-09-11T13:24:20Z Plazma: https://medium.com/commitlog/a-brief-totally-accurate-history-of-programming-languages-cd93ec806124
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2020-09-11T13:29:38Z beach: Plazma: Why are you posting this link?  I never click on a link until the person posting it gives a plausible summary of what I can expect if I click on it.
2020-09-11T13:31:06Z beach: Plazma: Furthermore, you seem to be new here.  That's another reason for me to ask for an explanation.  New people who start by posting links make me think of troll behavior.
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2020-09-11T13:32:11Z beach: Plazma: And if the phrase given in the link is accurate, then the entire thing is off topic, unless of course you wanted us to see anything particularly related to Common Lisp.
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2020-09-11T13:36:43Z Josh_2: cringe, doesn't include lisp at 1958
2020-09-11T13:37:04Z clothespin: but it's totally accurate
2020-09-11T13:39:53Z phoe: Plazma: this is quality #lispcafe material
2020-09-11T13:40:02Z phoe: not #lisp material though
2020-09-11T13:40:20Z Plazma: Oh ok beach didn't have to be so rude though thank you for being nice phoe
2020-09-11T13:40:31Z phoe: Plazma: it's not really about rudeness
2020-09-11T13:40:55Z phoe: there's two reasons for this sort of reaction
2020-09-11T13:40:59Z Gnuxie[m]: This is such a garbage quality article too
2020-09-11T13:41:11Z phoe: one - #lisp is strictly on topic about CL whereas #lispcafe is not
2020-09-11T13:41:15Z Plazma: A little effort would show in anything but a troll
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2020-09-11T13:41:37Z phoe: two - there's people who somewhat frequently come and troll this channel
2020-09-11T13:41:49Z Plazma: I was just hang out because I wanted to learn more lisp for my quantum computing stufd
2020-09-11T13:41:58Z beach: Plazma: I wasn't trying to be rude.  Just stating the rules.
2020-09-11T13:42:03Z phoe: Plazma: no problem with that
2020-09-11T13:42:22Z Plazma: Still kinda rude in how you railroaded me beach but phoe was very pleasant
2020-09-11T13:42:36Z phoe: no, I honestly think that posting a somewhat famous memepost about a history of programming languages as a greeting on #lisp is a very weird way of introducing yourself
2020-09-11T13:42:56Z beach: Plazma: Fine.  I'll be quiet.
2020-09-11T13:42:57Z Josh_2: could be worse
2020-09-11T13:42:59Z phoe: especially since that post doesn't even mention lisp
2020-09-11T13:43:18Z Plazma: It was actually meant for another channel ..to be honestly
2020-09-11T13:43:23Z clothespin: i think that is the point plazma was trying to make
2020-09-11T13:43:41Z phoe: IMO a quick "woops, sorry, wrong channel" would do best, then
2020-09-11T13:43:51Z phoe: but anyway, I think the situation's clear now
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2020-09-11T13:46:15Z Plazma: I didn't have time because beach kinda jumped on me..I mean I'm former freenide staff so it's unlikely I'd troll
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2020-09-11T13:46:27Z Plazma: I spent far too much time dealing with them
2020-09-11T13:46:57Z jackdaniel: being pragmatically honest with explaining misbehavior is an act of kind guidance often mistaken for rudeness
2020-09-11T13:47:00Z Plazma:  Also traveling a bit so on the phone I don't see the things and bits
2020-09-11T13:47:15Z jackdaniel: that's very ungrateful type of being kind
2020-09-11T13:47:38Z Plazma: I dunno phoe did it well that I understood and didn't make assumptions :)
2020-09-11T13:48:07Z Plazma: So thank you phoe
2020-09-11T13:48:14Z Plazma: You are a good person
2020-09-11T13:48:25Z Josh_2: Buttering you up good phoe
2020-09-11T13:48:44Z Plazma: Hah
2020-09-11T13:48:51Z jackdaniel: if irc were full of phoe"s the noise ratio would be higher due to roundabout ways of explaining mistakes and then praise etc
2020-09-11T13:49:01Z Josh_2: oof
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2020-09-11T13:49:43Z jackdaniel: that's not a nitpick, rather an observation
2020-09-11T13:50:49Z phoe: Plazma: OK, thanks, let's keep #lisp on topic though
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2020-09-11T13:53:46Z phoe: jackdaniel is right that this has in total generated two or more screens' worth of talk that isn't really about Lisp and is just somewhat about #lisp
2020-09-11T13:57:33Z Plazma: Ok friends
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2020-09-11T14:09:01Z Plazma: so do the lots of youmostly do lisp in emacs or use other tools/editors ?
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2020-09-11T14:12:53Z phoe: I use emacs and slime
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2020-09-11T14:13:41Z phoe: slime is an emacs toolkit that provides connection to the running Lisp image, allowing for live code evaluation, function definition/redefinition, autocompletion, debugger, and such
2020-09-11T14:14:07Z Plazma: i remember slime from a long time ago
2020-09-11T14:14:17Z Plazma: it was abit much though for me at first
2020-09-11T14:14:42Z ck_: you should spend some time and read through the manual. It has excellent features, for example, take a look at its trace dialog
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2020-09-11T14:15:34Z shka_: slime make lisp programming a lot easier
2020-09-11T14:15:52Z shka_: because of interactivity
2020-09-11T14:16:49Z Plazma: teh slime manual you mean? yea i tend to be try it , bang my head, bleed ab it, get exhausted, then read something .. not proud of it but alas
2020-09-11T14:19:46Z Plazma: trying to fix that about myself, but i've not done so well ,
2020-09-11T14:19:47Z edgar-rft: don't try to memorize all that stuff, learn it as you *need* it, it's much easier to remember then
2020-09-11T14:19:54Z Plazma: hmm,
2020-09-11T14:20:15Z Plazma: not to get too off topic but isn't hat counter intuiative to how a lot of things are taught and expected of folks to learn ?
2020-09-11T14:21:17Z phoe: I don't know; people are impossible to memorize large amounts of stuff at once anyway, so this advice seems sound to me
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2020-09-11T14:21:42Z phoe: just start playing with it and then learn as you go, and ask questions, and say your personal doubts, and explore stuff and so on
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2020-09-11T14:22:29Z Plazma: fair enough
2020-09-11T14:23:05Z Plazma: i remember a lot of crusty C programmers were rude to me when i was learning and basically refusd to talk to me unless i went through K&R C and did every exercise or at least tried it, and said that was the only way..heh
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2020-09-11T14:23:52Z phoe: #clschool exists for people who want to learn Lisp
2020-09-11T14:23:57Z edgar-rft: education theory is like statistics, teachers teach was is appropriate for the average student, but many people are just simply "unaverage" :-)
2020-09-11T14:25:16Z Plazma: edgar-rft: fair :D also most people who think they know statistics have no clue, and even those that do know it, don't that well :p
2020-09-11T14:25:29Z Plazma: phoe: damn you all got everything
2020-09-11T14:26:05Z phoe: Plazma: as I mentioned before, #lisp has a lot of history :D
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2020-09-11T14:27:10Z edgar-rft: if you're un-average it makes not much sense to learn statistics, because it produces results that are pretty much useless for you
2020-09-11T14:27:47Z Plazma: (tell that to the television news people :P)
2020-09-11T14:28:34Z phoe: I bet that if you decide to start a television news people discussion on #lispcafe then people there will pick up the topic
2020-09-11T14:29:02Z edgar-rft: a) I worked for radio/television news for more than 30 years and yes, that's b) the reason why I don't listen to it
2020-09-11T14:29:39Z Plazma: phoe: apologies
2020-09-11T14:29:54Z Plazma: i was going to ask something about low level things possible in lisp but i realized i didn't google it yet
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2020-09-11T14:30:22Z phoe: depends on how low level
2020-09-11T14:30:32Z edgar-rft: Common Lisp is both, a high-level but also a surprising low-level language
2020-09-11T14:30:36Z phoe: if it's about accessing foreign memory, then that's mostly doable
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2020-09-11T14:30:44Z phoe: if it's about inline assembly, that's tough but doable on some implementations
2020-09-11T14:30:58Z Inline: ecl
2020-09-11T14:31:00Z Inline: heh
2020-09-11T14:31:50Z Plazma: i can't recall if it has pointers or not,
2020-09-11T14:32:01Z phoe: standard Common Lisp doesn't have pointers on its own
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2020-09-11T14:32:20Z phoe: but there's a portabiility layer called CFFI that allows you to work with raw memory and with C libraries that access raw memory
2020-09-11T14:32:39Z phoe: it's usable in all modern CL implementations.
2020-09-11T14:34:01Z Plazma: so to make CL more functional would one need add on or libraries? i feel like as long as we avoid changing the original state we basically have a mostly functional language
2020-09-11T14:34:07Z Plazma: and do copy by value
2020-09-11T14:34:16Z phoe: sure, that's doable, CL is multiparadigm
2020-09-11T14:34:34Z phoe: if you avoid any mutating operations then you can write functional code in it
2020-09-11T14:35:01Z Plazma: i guess i'm wrapping my head around what/how functional code differs, and it seems as long as you don't mess with the original state and copy by value , then that's kinda the crux of it
2020-09-11T14:35:26Z beach: *sigh*
2020-09-11T14:35:49Z phoe: the output of a pure function depends only on its inputs
2020-09-11T14:35:59Z phoe: that's regardless of the language that you write the function in
2020-09-11T14:36:05Z Plazma: ahh ok
2020-09-11T14:36:17Z phoe: so it's not really Lisp-specific
2020-09-11T14:36:27Z phoe: the Lisp-specific part is that you can mix parts that are pure with parts that have side effects
2020-09-11T14:36:32Z tychoish: mutability is a cool feature but it's orthogonal. :)
2020-09-11T14:36:33Z shka_: functional has different meaning
2020-09-11T14:36:35Z shka_: s
2020-09-11T14:36:45Z phoe: welp
2020-09-11T14:36:57Z phoe should not do explaining when he's tired
2020-09-11T14:37:07Z edgar-rft: may I come up with the functional vs misfunctional joke?
2020-09-11T14:37:16Z tychoish: disfunctional
2020-09-11T14:37:28Z beach: That would be "dysfunctional".
2020-09-11T14:37:35Z tychoish: you're dysfunctional
2020-09-11T14:37:50Z Plazma: hah
2020-09-11T14:38:07Z tychoish: (kidding)
2020-09-11T14:38:08Z phoe: hey come on now that was rude
2020-09-11T14:38:11Z phoe: :(
2020-09-11T14:38:17Z edgar-rft: I'm not a victim of education theory so I'm spelling words like *I* want :-)
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2020-09-11T14:39:48Z Plazma: i feel like lisp would make a really good language for real/complex/functional analysis stuff too
2020-09-11T14:40:03Z tychoish: people have definitely done that kind of thing.
2020-09-11T14:40:03Z phoe: you mean maths and/or logic?
2020-09-11T14:40:06Z phoe: there's systems for that
2020-09-11T14:40:47Z phoe: ACL2 for theorem proving, Macsyma/Maxima for maths
2020-09-11T14:40:59Z phoe: and lots of other smaller pieces of software
2020-09-11T14:41:15Z Plazma: phoe: maths yes, i'm familiar with maxima/sagemath and gap
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2020-09-11T14:41:28Z Plazma: but i was meaning writing a cas in lisp or even for equation valuation
2020-09-11T14:41:36Z Plazma: granted there are better things out there that do that :D
2020-09-11T14:45:13Z phoe: CAS? what does that mean?
2020-09-11T14:45:20Z beach: Computer Algebra System
2020-09-11T14:45:24Z phoe is thinking compare-and-swap
2020-09-11T14:45:26Z phoe: oh yes, I see
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2020-09-11T14:52:59Z edgar-rft: acronyms are *good* :-)
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2020-09-11T14:53:32Z edgar-rft: there are so many meanings to choose from
2020-09-11T14:53:51Z beach: minion: What does CAS stand for?
2020-09-11T14:53:51Z minion: Compositely Agaze Soldado
2020-09-11T14:54:11Z Josh_2: Thanks minion
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2020-09-11T14:54:14Z Josh_2: cleared that one right up! :P
2020-09-11T14:54:20Z beach: minion: Thanks!
2020-09-11T14:54:20Z minion: you're welcome
2020-09-11T14:55:17Z Plazma: oh yea computer algebra system sorry
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2020-09-11T15:00:15Z edgar-rft: Crappy Ass Shit
2020-09-11T15:00:41Z Plazma: also accurate
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2020-09-11T15:06:40Z shka_: CLOSE AIR SUPPORT!
2020-09-11T15:07:43Z Inline: Can A Squirrel
2020-09-11T15:07:54Z Inline: lol
2020-09-11T15:14:18Z sm2n: maxima is a CAS written in lisp though
2020-09-11T15:14:45Z Plazma: what?
2020-09-11T15:15:46Z sm2n: as in, yes it is suitable
2020-09-11T15:15:58Z sm2n: there's a chapter in norvig's PAIP book on it
2020-09-11T15:16:16Z sm2n: though he doesn't get into the fancy stuff
2020-09-11T15:17:09Z Plazma: is scheme/scijp still considerd more of a educational tool?
2020-09-11T15:17:31Z sm2n: https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp/blob/master/docs/chapter15.md
2020-09-11T15:17:55Z sm2n: I would say scheme is used for things outside of education, but sicp yes
2020-09-11T15:18:15Z Plazma: i think i saw racket? or something else, chicken maybe that was a scheme implementation,
2020-09-11T15:19:14Z Inline: racket, chicken, mit-scheme, plt-scheme, z-scheme, guile.....
2020-09-11T15:19:24Z Plazma: oh right guile
2020-09-11T15:19:26Z Plazma: i forget about that
2020-09-11T15:19:45Z Inline: btw, readscheme.org is all about academia afait
2020-09-11T15:22:19Z sm2n: beach, did you end up thinking about graphics for closos?
2020-09-11T15:23:15Z beach: Probably not.  Is this a conversation we had in the past?
2020-09-11T15:23:41Z sm2n: yeah, a couple weeks ago I think
2020-09-11T15:23:59Z beach: Let me check the logs...
2020-09-11T15:25:09Z beach: Found it.  And no, haven't had any time for that. :(  Sorry.
2020-09-11T15:25:25Z jackdaniel: clim spec has absorbed genera's graphics and windowing abstractions (callwd silica)
2020-09-11T15:25:31Z jackdaniel: called*
2020-09-11T15:25:54Z Plazma: just do what the templeos guy did
2020-09-11T15:26:04Z Plazma: apart from the train part
2020-09-11T15:26:09Z sm2n: I see
2020-09-11T15:26:18Z sm2n: I need to look into clim proper one of these days
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2020-09-11T15:26:51Z sm2n: are there any working applications that use (mc)clim other than that maxima ui?
2020-09-11T15:27:18Z jackdaniel: yes, there is i.e gopher client. also plenty of demos
2020-09-11T15:27:34Z Inline: there was even a browser
2020-09-11T15:27:36Z jackdaniel: in mcclim tree you'll find also a listener and the inspector
2020-09-11T15:27:36Z phoe: also inspector clouseau, if it's enough of an application for you
2020-09-11T15:27:51Z sm2n: oh I saw the closeau presentation
2020-09-11T15:27:53Z jackdaniel: clim flamegraph is another useful app
2020-09-11T15:27:54Z sm2n: that was very neat
2020-09-11T15:27:55Z Inline: listener, inspector, climacs (an emacs like editor)....
2020-09-11T15:28:10Z Inline: closure the browser
2020-09-11T15:28:15Z sm2n: thanks I'll take a look
2020-09-11T15:28:22Z Inline: there are many, but most are not maintained
2020-09-11T15:28:28Z sm2n: I think I tried building closure a couple months back and it didn't work
2020-09-11T15:28:35Z Inline: yep
2020-09-11T15:28:44Z Inline: it used to work
2020-09-11T15:29:21Z Inline: beirc the irc client
2020-09-11T15:29:31Z Inline: lotsa apps really
2020-09-11T15:29:45Z jackdaniel: closure worked for me the other day
2020-09-11T15:29:53Z Inline: hmmm
2020-09-11T15:29:58Z sm2n: hmm
2020-09-11T15:29:59Z Inline: where did you get it from ?
2020-09-11T15:30:37Z Plazma: beach: are you an academic/phd student as well?
2020-09-11T15:30:59Z sm2n: https://common-lisp.net/project/closure/ I think
2020-09-11T15:31:03Z phoe: he's an academic/phd, yes, though not really a student anymore :D
2020-09-11T15:31:08Z sm2n: (when I tried)
2020-09-11T15:31:12Z Inline: there's also clocc
2020-09-11T15:31:26Z Inline: seems from yale
2020-09-11T15:31:34Z sm2n: I think that was the first time in my life I installed cvs so it was memorable
2020-09-11T15:31:41Z Inline: it's more of a framework
2020-09-11T15:32:12Z Plazma: phoe: so a Dr in CS? nice
2020-09-11T15:32:17Z Plazma: 2022 for me to get that
2020-09-11T15:32:44Z jackdaniel: fron the cl gitlab
2020-09-11T15:32:58Z Inline: oh ok
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2020-09-11T15:33:11Z sm2n: jackdaniel, is this what you were referring to? https://github.com/knusbaum/clim-gopher
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2020-09-11T15:33:57Z jackdaniel: yes, the gopher client is thst
2020-09-11T15:34:13Z jackdaniel: there is also a window manager called doors
2020-09-11T15:34:23Z jackdaniel: on admich github repository
2020-09-11T15:34:30Z Inline: hmmm
2020-09-11T15:34:35Z Inline: never heard of doors
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2020-09-11T15:34:44Z Inline: and what was gopher about again ?
2020-09-11T15:34:55Z Inline: i heard from but never used
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2020-09-11T15:35:09Z jackdaniel: it was about showing content instead of ads
2020-09-11T15:35:11Z Inline: i thought it's a network protocol first
2020-09-11T15:35:15Z sm2n: alternative www protocol basically
2020-09-11T15:35:21Z Inline: aah
2020-09-11T15:35:23Z Inline: ok then
2020-09-11T15:35:24Z shka_: Plazma: anyway, learning CL is not so daunting as it may appear, practical common lisp remains relevant book and although CL may look alien and weird it is actually a very well designed language with a well defined concepts (mostly), interactive approach also allows to make you effective use of your time
2020-09-11T15:35:34Z sm2n: vs http/html/css/js
2020-09-11T15:36:15Z sm2n: gopherspace is probably the most active it's ever been rn actually
2020-09-11T15:36:21Z shka_: also, to be honest, you don't need to know a lot of CL to write useful code
2020-09-11T15:36:27Z sm2n: and there's a successor protocol of sorts called gemini
2020-09-11T15:36:47Z sm2n: hm, I'm guessing no one has written a clim gemini client
2020-09-11T15:36:50Z shka_: so good luck and god speed :-)
2020-09-11T15:36:54Z sm2n: sounds like a good project
2020-09-11T15:37:27Z Plazma: shka_: cool, it seems i can compile it to a binary if i need like i would anything else, and it looks like it could be used for web stuff if i need it to be, etc
2020-09-11T15:37:30Z jackdaniel: if you have questions about clim, there is #clim channel
2020-09-11T15:37:47Z sm2n: I'm in it already
2020-09-11T15:37:56Z sm2n: but thanks
2020-09-11T15:38:19Z sm2n: seems someone wrote a gemini server in cl, but that's it
2020-09-11T15:38:24Z sm2n: from cursory search
2020-09-11T15:38:34Z shka_: Plazma: yes, CL is a flexible, general purpose language. It also has multiple implementations, including one running in the JVM.
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2020-09-11T15:38:50Z Plazma: cool
2020-09-11T15:38:54Z shka_: there is also ECL that compiles to C, which is good for C interop
2020-09-11T15:38:56Z Inline: armed bear common lisp
2020-09-11T15:38:58Z Inline: abcl
2020-09-11T15:39:03Z shka_: yeah
2020-09-11T15:39:06Z Inline: that's the one for the jvm
2020-09-11T15:39:16Z Inline: so you can combine java with
2020-09-11T15:39:23Z Inline: heh
2020-09-11T15:40:22Z shka_: so in summary, CL is still useful although people will look at you funny for writing it
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2020-09-11T15:42:51Z Plazma: shka_: yea and i think closure and other things have been used to write some successful commercial products too, so that's reassuring, despite the funny looks and chastiziation from others
2020-09-11T15:43:30Z Inline: would be good to scroll the screen in mcclim apps via keys
2020-09-11T15:43:56Z shka_: Plazma: lisp is one of those languages that was used in one form or another to tackle almost every problem in IT
2020-09-11T15:44:21Z shka_: so it is a well proven at least
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2020-09-11T15:44:47Z shka_: anyway, I like Lisp, hopefully you will like it as well :-)
2020-09-11T15:44:55Z shka_: gotta go, nice to see new face here
2020-09-11T15:45:06Z shka_: you can join #lispcafe to write offtopic
2020-09-11T15:45:25Z Plazma: yea i' have been, thanks
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2020-09-11T16:25:27Z Plazma: assuming there is a way to do static typing with lisp if i wanted to?
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2020-09-11T16:28:03Z Josh_2: you can declare types
2020-09-11T16:31:05Z beach: I advise against type declarations, unless you are a very experienced Common Lisp programmer, and you know precisely what such declarations mean.
2020-09-11T16:31:44Z Josh_2: Need em for some extra speed and power xD
2020-09-11T16:32:22Z beach: Right, but newbies mess up the speed in oh so many more significant ways.
2020-09-11T16:33:05Z Plazma: fair enough, interesting it's dynamic and strong typed though
2020-09-11T16:33:12Z Plazma: but maybe not that weird
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2020-09-11T16:34:12Z Josh_2: normally (declare (speed 3) (safety 1)) will get you plenty of speed and powaaaaa
2020-09-11T16:34:37Z beach: That's really bad advice to a beginner.
2020-09-11T16:35:19Z Josh_2: Hmm
2020-09-11T16:35:36Z dra: beach: Why?
2020-09-11T16:35:38Z Josh_2: Plazma: what I said should be a mental note, doesn't mean you should do it though
2020-09-11T16:36:24Z beach: dra: Because beginners mess up things like data structures, and micro optimizations aren't going to help that.  It is much better to have a high debug setting and to concentrate on algorithmic complexity.
2020-09-11T16:36:38Z dra: beach: Thanks!
2020-09-11T16:37:04Z beach: dra: Then, when everything works, IF there is some bottleneck (which is not often the case), some select modules could benefit from micro optimizations.
2020-09-11T16:37:39Z beach: I do all my work with (speed 0) (compilation-speed 0) (safety 3) (debug 3)
2020-09-11T16:38:05Z Plazma: Josh_2: of course
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2020-09-11T16:53:32Z sm2n: makes a big difference for when you know your problem domain though
2020-09-11T16:54:25Z sm2n: I wrote a cpu raytracer recently, and without the declarations would've never gotten sweet sweet simd operations
2020-09-11T16:55:32Z sm2n: don't remember exact figures but I think the difference was on the order of a magnitude
2020-09-11T16:56:17Z shka_: numeric stuff is the one domain where it matters
2020-09-11T16:56:36Z shka_: BUT you can add type declarations later
2020-09-11T16:56:50Z sm2n: yup
2020-09-11T16:57:01Z sm2n: I didn't bother at first
2020-09-11T16:57:23Z shka_: for most of the development you don't worry about the speed anyway
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2020-09-11T16:58:02Z shka_: well, obviously you do worry, but that's about the design choices, not about the efficient code produced by the compiler
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2020-09-11T16:58:36Z sm2n: there are good arguments against compiler optimization in general too
2020-09-11T16:58:58Z sm2n: ex: https://cr.yp.to/talks/2015.04.16/slides-djb-20150416-a4.pdf
2020-09-11T16:59:30Z sm2n: basically, that the faster computers get, the larger portion of time is spent in tight loops
2020-09-11T16:59:53Z sm2n: hence optimization effort is wasted on code that isn't hot, and hot code is better hand optimized anyway
2020-09-11T17:00:01Z Josh_2: as long as you aren't producing software like electron I think It's okay
2020-09-11T17:00:22Z sm2n: pretty much
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2020-09-11T17:02:52Z Josh_2: "Performance remains important for occasional hot spots:small segments of code applied to tons of data." I think this is a very important point
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2020-09-11T17:04:18Z sm2n: yeah, and I think this is the essential usecase for compiler macros?
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2020-09-11T17:05:02Z sm2n: I guess you could do (speed 0) everywhere but use compiler macros for hot spots liberally
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2020-09-11T17:05:35Z sm2n: I want to try this now
2020-09-11T17:12:36Z shka_: sm2n: you can just (locally (optimize (speed 3)) ... in those few places where you want to inline memory access and stuff
2020-09-11T17:14:49Z sm2n: that's true
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2020-09-11T18:04:06Z rumbler31: trying to build a standalone application.  I know all the steps to produce standalone binaries, but I'm trying to figure out the best way to make this repeatable.  Right now I only depend on plokami and usocket
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2020-09-11T18:04:40Z rumbler31: I need a funciton that will load those libraries into an image, define all the functions, then generate the binary.
2020-09-11T18:05:08Z rumbler31: quicklisp has a "dist snapshot" mechanism.
2020-09-11T18:05:28Z rumbler31: I'm mainly talking out loud here but also looking for some ideas
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2020-09-11T18:08:26Z rumbler31: it seems like if I go the quicklisp dist snapshot route, I'll be making a folder structure that I can check into source control where one folder are the dependencies, a make file calls the lisp image and evals a lisp file that loads the dependencies and defines the functions and then generates a new image.  But it feels rather unlispy in that its not just another asdf package
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2020-09-11T18:14:26Z phoe: rumbler31: Shinmera's deploy
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2020-09-11T18:22:13Z rumbler31: phoe: thanks I'll look it up.
2020-09-11T18:22:21Z rumbler31: phoe: also thanks for your work on the online meetups
2020-09-11T18:23:11Z phoe: <3
2020-09-11T18:26:19Z rumbler31: while i'm at it, I'm trying to figure out a way as a user of a library to continue in the face of errors when calling a library function.  For instane, with plokami, if the pcap file that is read has a truncated packet, an error is signaled during plokami:with-pcap-reader.  I want to learn if its possible to pass "all the packets found so far" and simply ignore the error.
2020-09-11T18:26:48Z phoe: plokami should establish a restart that makes it possible
2020-09-11T18:26:58Z rumbler31: if I'm the library author I think I can use handler bind to make a restart, but if the library hasn't been written that way, how do I go about making my own ... restart
2020-09-11T18:27:05Z phoe: wait what
2020-09-11T18:27:10Z phoe: handler-bind doesn't establish restart
2020-09-11T18:27:20Z rumbler31: forgive me its been a long time since I played with restarts
2020-09-11T18:27:20Z phoe: restarts*
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2020-09-11T18:27:25Z phoe: well basically
2020-09-11T18:27:42Z rumbler31: but in general its up to the library to provide the restart, I can't as a user sorta, make my own around the error?
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2020-09-11T18:27:56Z phoe: not in the general case
2020-09-11T18:28:15Z phoe: xristos: ^
2020-09-11T18:28:26Z phoe: would this be possible? how does libpcap behave in case of a corrupted file of sorts?
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2020-09-11T18:28:44Z phoe: is it possible to only get the packets that were successfully read until the error?
2020-09-11T18:29:03Z phoe: if that's possible, then establishing such a restat would work
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2020-09-11T18:29:54Z rumbler31: I figured it out in this case actually
2020-09-11T18:30:44Z rumbler31: a handler case around the macro itself.  the macro calls a line of code for each packet, in that line I push the results of the packet processing to a lexical variable.  A handler case around the macro captures the error and returns the list that has been made already
2020-09-11T18:31:45Z rumbler31: but I guess I am lucky in the way the library author has exposes the functionality so I could do it this way, otherwise I guess I'd have to write my own restart in the library, right?
2020-09-11T18:32:26Z xristos: you don't have to use the macro
2020-09-11T18:32:33Z xristos: you can go a layer down
2020-09-11T18:33:20Z xristos: there are multiple apis exposed there, from as close to the C as you can get, to intermediate and a higher level ones in Lisp
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2020-09-11T18:33:58Z xristos: i need to find some time and push what i've actually been using for the last 10 years, which is a near complete rewrite
2020-09-11T18:34:15Z xristos: plokami works but it's old (first CL library I ever wrote and published)
2020-09-11T18:34:25Z xristos: and lacks a lot of new libpcap features
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2020-09-11T18:47:13Z rumbler31: holy cow man
2020-09-11T18:47:42Z rumbler31: I was about to make a feature request to support another low level, uhm... packet format I forget what they're called.  I think plokami can't read cooked captures
2020-09-11T18:48:15Z rumbler31: I'm basically using it right now as a poor man's udp replay tool
2020-09-11T18:48:33Z rumbler31: I've used it for sensor processing though, its come in handy, so thank you
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2020-09-11T18:52:16Z xristos: for SLL, you can add the appropriate datalink type to pcap.lisp
2020-09-11T18:52:33Z xristos: that should do the trick, no other changes needed
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2020-09-11T19:03:32Z rumbler31: I think I tried that and it didn't work but I'll try it again and see how far I get
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2020-09-11T19:13:27Z sm2n: woo I have clouseau running
2020-09-11T19:13:33Z sm2n: this is pretty nice
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2020-09-11T19:28:14Z shka_: sm2n: yeah, way better then a slime inspector
2020-09-11T19:28:20Z shka_: and can be specialized as well
2020-09-11T19:28:58Z shka_: it makes you think how nice it would be to have full IDE written the same way as that inspector
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2020-09-12T00:59:22Z sm2n: for sure
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2020-09-12T03:11:28Z uhren: ok
2020-09-12T03:11:32Z uhren: Hello?
2020-09-12T03:11:49Z Bike: wassup uhren
2020-09-12T03:11:49Z no-defun-allowed: Hello uhren.
2020-09-12T03:13:10Z uhren: nice to see that this irc is not that dead
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2020-09-12T03:14:49Z markasoftware: is it correct that the Visitor patten from traditional OO programming is unnecessary in Lisp, because it's easy to (defmethod) on an existing class?
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2020-09-12T03:15:29Z Bike: well, yeah, you can define operations on objects without altering the structure of the objects
2020-09-12T03:15:39Z Bike: i can't say i know the details of the visitor pattern, though
2020-09-12T03:16:16Z markasoftware: the wikipedia page on visitors is quite obtuse but the understanding i'm getting is that java doesn't let you define methods on a class that's already been defined in another file, hence the need
2020-09-12T03:16:20Z uhren: >spend 2 years learning Python, Java>spend 2 years learning Python, Java, JS and such >have almost nothing done > sees superior Lisp > has useless knowledge in these Langs >wants to learn Lisp. I have seen Common Lisp, is it good to begin with? what implementation ( I am on Linux )?
2020-09-12T03:16:36Z markasoftware: (same with c++, etc)
2020-09-12T03:16:38Z Bike: sbcl and ccl for example are solid
2020-09-12T03:17:10Z Bike: markasoftware: with the way virtual dispatch works in C++, the set of virtual functions has to be known at class definition time. java might work the same way
2020-09-12T03:19:38Z uhren: Ok, I am compiling it...ehm...do you have any beginner tips or mistakes I should not dook, it is compiling...ehm..do you have any beginner mistakes or some tips for me ( I want to focus on networking )
2020-09-12T03:20:33Z Bike: hm, i guess don't expect a separate object file? that trips up a lot of newbies. but if you're familiar with python you're presumably used to a repl anyway
2020-09-12T03:20:49Z Bike: try getting a ui like slime that facilitates interactive development
2020-09-12T03:21:34Z uhren: do I need a IDE for it ( like in Java, where it is just a huge pain without IDE ) or can I just use Vim?
2020-09-12T03:21:58Z no-defun-allowed: I had thought the visitor pattern was a kludge for not using multiple dispatch.
2020-09-12T03:22:05Z Bike: sure, you can use vim. look up slimv.
2020-09-12T03:22:17Z no-defun-allowed: SLIME is an extension for Emacs, but there is also SLIMV for Vim.
2020-09-12T03:22:29Z Bike: i haven't used it myself, but people seem to like it.
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2020-09-12T03:22:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-09-12T03:22:51Z uhren: Ok, I will take a look at it
2020-09-12T03:22:58Z Bike: good morning, beach
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2020-09-12T03:23:20Z bjorkintosh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3OldEtfBrE
2020-09-12T03:23:47Z uhren: Good morning
2020-09-12T03:24:45Z uhren: What are like weaknesses of Lisp?
2020-09-12T03:25:02Z bjorkintosh: none. they're in the mind.
2020-09-12T03:25:08Z uhren: Is there something it is unuseable for?
2020-09-12T03:25:08Z uhren: ok
2020-09-12T03:25:18Z moon-child: uhren: http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
2020-09-12T03:26:27Z moon-child: uhren: it's difficult to assign lisp many tangible attributes beyond its ability to gather more.  Generally, anything you would want to use lisp for, you can make it be usable for.
2020-09-12T03:27:11Z bjorkintosh: uhren, it's a tool. how well you learn it determines how well you can use it.
2020-09-12T03:28:04Z uhren: it seems like the perfect language. Are there like some libs I HAVE to learn in order to write good code or something.
2020-09-12T03:28:10Z uhren: *?
2020-09-12T03:28:18Z bjorkintosh: of course. I'd start with the language though!
2020-09-12T03:28:56Z beach: I think it was drmeister who once said something like [and I paraphrase] "C++ is a DSL that is excellent for deciding exactly where to put each bit of information in memory".  Common Lisp is definitely not good for that, but that is also what you absolutely don't want to decide most of the time.
2020-09-12T03:30:02Z uhren: yeah, I am just used to python because pentesting and stuff. So maybe Lisp is a good lang to replace Python with
2020-09-12T03:30:23Z bjorkintosh: why are you replacing python? for the heck of it?
2020-09-12T03:30:54Z beach: uhren: Definitely.  It is 50 times faster if you choose a good implementation, and you rarely have to write C code to make it fast.
2020-09-12T03:31:18Z uhren: >why are you replacing python? for the heck of it? tired of seeing and using it tbh
2020-09-12T03:33:10Z beach: uhren: There is no need to quote the question.  Just prefix the answer with the nick of the person who asked, followed by a colon.  Your IRC client should complete for you.
2020-09-12T03:35:03Z uhren: I have just looked into some documentations and tuts online to start with it. First tarded question: What is teh differnce between (write-line "Hello World") and (format t "Hello World")?
2020-09-12T03:35:27Z bjorkintosh: there is more than one way to do it in lisp.
2020-09-12T03:35:39Z uhren: so what is the better way?
2020-09-12T03:35:57Z moon-child: format gets a format string, like printf in c.  So you can say (format t "Hello ~a" "world")
2020-09-12T03:35:59Z bjorkintosh: good question.
2020-09-12T03:39:09Z beach: uhren: WRITE-LINE does one thing.  FORMAT is its own language that lets you do lots more things.  If all you want to do is to output some text without any formatting directives, either way is fine.
2020-09-12T03:39:46Z uhren: ah ok
2020-09-12T03:41:47Z Plazma: Pentesting is fun..but yea lots of the libs are python sadly
2020-09-12T03:42:09Z Plazma: Haven't seen If there is similar for lisp or stuff for binary analysis
2020-09-12T03:46:04Z drmeister: Hey folks - here's a little demo of displaying 28 molecules all aligned so they are rendered in a similar way in a Jupyterlab notebook.  All implemented in Cando (Common Lisp + C++)
2020-09-12T03:46:05Z drmeister: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2gai5j8mue6um44/Screen%20Recording%202020-09-11%20at%2011.42.29%20PM.mov?dl=0
2020-09-12T03:47:31Z drmeister: We generate a drawing for one molecule and then generate the other 27 in parallel threads using lparallel promises.
2020-09-12T03:48:18Z no-defun-allowed: moon-child: I don't think it's a curse, admittedly. Being able to piss off and do your own thing is quite an amazing feat in software development.
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2020-09-12T03:48:52Z drmeister: The 27 are drawn so the core of the molecule is aligned in a similar fashion as the first molecule so that a chemist can instantly recognize the common and different features of each molecule.
2020-09-12T03:49:04Z no-defun-allowed: Fancy.
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2020-09-12T03:50:34Z drmeister: I just realized there's an audio track recorded - phew - hardly any cursing. :-)
2020-09-12T03:50:59Z beach: Nice demo!
2020-09-12T03:51:56Z drmeister: Thank you.   I made lparallel a standard part of cando - so there are no barriers to using multiple threads.
2020-09-12T03:52:29Z uhren: ehm...I feel a bit tarded again...so sry for that question: is this ccl-init.lisp something like the main in C? Or is it just optional?
2020-09-12T03:53:14Z beach: uhren: It is rare that you need to make an executable for your Common Lisp project.
2020-09-12T03:53:15Z Bike: it is an rc file. it is optional.
2020-09-12T03:53:36Z Bike: it's just a file of stuff that's executed every time you start ccl.
2020-09-12T03:53:39Z beach: uhren: You would work in the REPL of the system for most of the development time.
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2020-09-12T03:54:46Z uhren: hmm, so I do not need to compile it?
2020-09-12T03:54:56Z uhren: but how would I do so, if I wanted to?
2020-09-12T03:55:00Z beach: Oh, that's a different question altogether.
2020-09-12T03:55:12Z beach: Most modern Common Lisp implementations compile by default.
2020-09-12T03:55:22Z beach: When you type a (defun ...) it is compiled.
2020-09-12T03:55:31Z uhren: ? in Vim?
2020-09-12T03:55:41Z beach: You are confusing on the one hand batch/interactive and on the other hand compiled/interpreted.
2020-09-12T03:56:09Z uhren: ah, ok, so what shall I do when I want to compile it?
2020-09-12T03:56:18Z beach: I am talking about the REPL of your Common Lisp system.  You should work interactively with it.
2020-09-12T03:56:43Z no-defun-allowed: Using the REPL (and shortcuts for sending function definitions) will compile functions.
2020-09-12T03:56:50Z uhren: hmm, so I use CL like soem shell?
2020-09-12T03:56:50Z beach: I recommend SLIME with Emacs, but I understand there is something that does part of what SLIME does, but for VIM.
2020-09-12T03:57:04Z beach: uhren: That's what the REPL is, yes.
2020-09-12T03:57:28Z no-defun-allowed: If you evaluate (disassemble (lambda (f) (funcall f 2))), you will see an assembler printout. Although no object file is generated, functions are still compiled.
2020-09-12T03:57:29Z beach: uhren: If you work in Common Lisp the way you work in a batch language, you will lose many of the advantages of Common Lisp.
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2020-09-12T04:05:54Z xristos: CL is definitely not a good replacement for Python re: pentesting
2020-09-12T04:06:07Z xristos: given the proliferation of Python in that domain
2020-09-12T04:06:12Z xristos: for masochists only!
2020-09-12T04:07:19Z no-defun-allowed: I recall being quite annoyed with the boilerplate:exploit-doing ratio in Metasploit (written in Ruby), so writing a more concise environment wouldn't be entirely for nothing.
2020-09-12T04:08:45Z xristos: metasploit is vast, and having worked on its commercial competitor, i can say that CL is not very suitable
2020-09-12T04:09:16Z xristos: a compact scheme would be a better fit
2020-09-12T04:09:31Z xristos: (which was actually done, look at mosquito lisp / wasp vm)
2020-09-12T04:09:58Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, it doesn't look so bad after reading some sources again.
2020-09-12T04:11:02Z no-defun-allowed: Are we running Lisp code on the target?
2020-09-12T04:11:15Z xristos: with mosquito lisp? yes
2020-09-12T04:11:25Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, that could be tricky with Common Lisp.
2020-09-12T04:11:46Z xristos: well if you had to use CL, you'd use it on the server-end
2020-09-12T04:12:05Z xristos: as a compiler for whatever you end up deploying
2020-09-12T04:12:14Z xristos: but again having done all that, it's not a good fit :)
2020-09-12T04:12:23Z xristos: far better alternatives out there
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2020-09-12T04:15:58Z no-defun-allowed: Right, I haven't really looked at any code-generating stuff; and I wouldn't be able to make any useful commentary on it.
2020-09-12T04:16:29Z Plazma: So for a cl program you essentially load the code in the repl and interact with it?
2020-09-12T04:16:39Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
2020-09-12T04:17:46Z Plazma: Hmm what about writing a server or something that typically runs as a daemon?
2020-09-12T04:19:04Z bjorkintosh: isn't that a daemon, Plazma?
2020-09-12T04:19:11Z bjorkintosh: a server that runs as a daemon ...
2020-09-12T04:20:16Z beach: Plazma: You can create an executable, but that is typically done once at the end of the project, so you spend most of your time in the REPL.  Users of static languages tend to want to create an executable every time they want to test a new features, and that is usually a waste of time.
2020-09-12T04:20:45Z xristos: Plazma: the REPL can be exposed over a TCP socket
2020-09-12T04:21:00Z xristos: so you can have a server and still interact with it over the network
2020-09-12T04:21:02Z Plazma: Ohhh so just during development and such
2020-09-12T04:21:05Z White_Flame: also, the basic IDE (SLIME) is a TCP socket into the running lisp image as well
2020-09-12T04:21:27Z White_Flame: which can remote into already-running lisp programs
2020-09-12T04:21:45Z White_Flame: instead of just launching a new one
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2020-09-12T04:28:44Z borei: uhren: im beginner as well. Well would love to spent much more time with lisp, but reality is pushing me not in  the way i want. Im still getting lisp ideas and lisp way, it is not like traditional languages like C. For the start i got "Practical Common Lisp" -  very useful book covering practical programming in Lisp. It would be extremely good to find task/problem/project you can work on. More you are using Lisp more you are injoing it. T
2020-09-12T04:28:45Z borei: ypes of the tasks you can solve with lisp - endless.
2020-09-12T04:29:20Z beach: borei: I think uhren left.
2020-09-12T04:29:57Z borei: hope that not forever :-)
2020-09-12T04:30:05Z beach: Sure.
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2020-09-12T07:49:20Z daniel-s: What is the command to lookup a function online, from emacs (slime)?
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2020-09-12T07:50:43Z no-defun-allowed: C-c C-d h
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2020-09-12T07:51:33Z phoe: Plazma: the Lisp process is already enough of a daemon
2020-09-12T07:51:57Z phoe: mine usually runs for weeks until I finally reload emacs or restart the computer
2020-09-12T07:52:38Z phoe: or, in case I screw the image up in development, until I restart the lisp process to get it back to a clean state
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2020-09-12T07:55:01Z daniel-s: no-defun-allowed: Perfect. Thanks
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2020-09-12T10:31:56Z ldbeth: good evening
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2020-09-12T13:00:34Z Josh_2: Afternoon all
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2020-09-12T13:04:03Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-09-12T13:16:59Z Plazma: So are you all also associated with the lispers facebook group
2020-09-12T13:17:20Z Josh_2: Not me
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2020-09-12T13:22:20Z Plazma: Or any Facebook group rather
2020-09-12T13:23:07Z Josh_2: Not me
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2020-09-12T13:32:37Z beach: Not me.
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2020-09-12T13:35:37Z phoe: not me
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2020-09-12T13:36:12Z phoe: I frequent some Lisp-related channels on Freenode, the Lisp Discord server, Reddit, and mailing lists; that's all
2020-09-12T13:36:37Z phoe: but then there's a bunch of various places where lisp programmers hang out in general, here is just one of them
2020-09-12T13:36:57Z phoe: one of the biggest ones nowadays, but still
2020-09-12T13:37:17Z Plazma: i just wasn't sure since it seems to be a closer-knit community than most i've seen
2020-09-12T13:38:07Z Plazma: phoe: also thanks, earlier for some reason i was interpreting that the REPL was the only way to run CL, but it seems the typical development is ust do things in the REPL and test everything out, then eventualy compile it to a binary when it works
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2020-09-12T13:40:22Z phoe: Plazma: yes, one usually leaves the Lisp image only for deployment purposes or when one screws the image up beyond repair or when one needs to test loading some code from a fresh image
2020-09-12T13:40:28Z beach: Right, it cuts the duration of the edit/compile/execute cycle to almost zero.
2020-09-12T13:40:35Z phoe: ^
2020-09-12T13:41:13Z beach: Especially compared to a static language that has to do a lot of things in include files like C++.
2020-09-12T13:41:28Z beach: Plus, the link cycle can be very long with such a language.
2020-09-12T13:41:39Z eta: fwiw this is like *the* reason I do most new projects in lisp nowadys
2020-09-12T13:41:40Z eta: a*
2020-09-12T13:41:47Z phoe: and livecoding support! mutating the image as the code runs is a nice thing too
2020-09-12T13:41:53Z Plazma: so i know in say python's REPL for instance, if i screw something up in a method, i have to basically type the whole method definition again, and i can't go back up and edit it easily like i could if it was just in a separate file.. is the lisp REPL the same?
2020-09-12T13:41:54Z eta: because I'm a lazyish programmer and having very little barriers to writing code and running it is good
2020-09-12T13:42:07Z eta: Plazma, well usually you write the function in another editor buffer
2020-09-12T13:42:12Z Plazma: ohh
2020-09-12T13:42:14Z eta: and use some key combination to compile it
2020-09-12T13:42:22Z beach: Exactly.
2020-09-12T13:42:35Z phoe: Plazma: "the Lisp REPL" is not a well-defined term
2020-09-12T13:42:57Z Plazma: so you're almost compiling as you go.. so to speak
2020-09-12T13:43:01Z phoe: e.g. in slime, the REPL is just one of the parts of the whole connection
2020-09-12T13:43:02Z Plazma: or in simple terms
2020-09-12T13:43:32Z ebrasca: Hi
2020-09-12T13:43:33Z phoe: another part of the connection is the ability to send file chunks for compilation and side effects
2020-09-12T13:43:37Z beach: It usually starts with an asdf:load-system, but then for minor changes, it's C-c C-c in the editor buffer.
2020-09-12T13:43:52Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
2020-09-12T13:43:58Z Plazma: i feel like smalltalk took alot of inspiration from lisp with the image like design
2020-09-12T13:44:00Z phoe: and that's mostly independent from the REPL, really; if you really want to, you can run slime without the REPL but with the ability to C-c C-c some forms from the editor
2020-09-12T13:44:17Z phoe: smalltalk is image based too! that's the same paradigm
2020-09-12T13:44:33Z phoe: even though CL can be implemented in a non-image-like way, no one really does that nowadays
2020-09-12T13:44:36Z beach: Plazma: Yes, Alan Kay was much inspired by Lisp.
2020-09-12T13:45:14Z Plazma: i love that guy
2020-09-12T13:45:30Z Plazma: and i like smalltalk, it's a shame java beat it out
2020-09-12T13:45:57Z Plazma: though everything as an object is probably the one thing i don't like myself, as i like having some base primitive, but everything else was just spot on
2020-09-12T13:45:58Z beach: He is very smart and very knowledgeable.  Unfortunately his talks are very hard to understand.  One basically has to know the subject beforehand.
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2020-09-12T13:47:42Z aap: "images based" was quite normal at the time
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2020-09-12T13:48:06Z Plazma: still makes a lot of sense even in todays world i think, but the bulk of the world doesn't
2020-09-12T13:48:15Z beach: The main problem i would have with Smalltalk, now that I know CLOS is the single dispatch and the "message passing" paradigm.
2020-09-12T13:48:28Z aap: you'd load machine code into memory, possibly linking it to other code, perhaps modify it with a debugger, and then dump it again
2020-09-12T13:48:57Z Plazma: i always like the message passing idea, you just send a message to some code/method to execute/do what it neds to do
2020-09-12T13:49:20Z beach: Yes, and that is very problematic when you want to select based on more than one object.
2020-09-12T13:49:33Z beach: You have to simulate multiple dispatch, and that gets ugly and slow.
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2020-09-12T13:50:17Z beach: And the distinction between the receiver of the message and the remaining arguments is very asymmetric and ugly as well.
2020-09-12T13:50:52Z beach: It means you can't treat your method as a first-class function for things like mapping.
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2020-09-12T13:51:00Z Plazma: hmm
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2020-09-12T13:51:24Z beach: CLOS makes all that very much more orthogonal.  And the result fits much better with the rest of Lisp.
2020-09-12T13:51:42Z Plazma: i'm not sure i follow the orthogonal part in this context
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2020-09-12T13:51:49Z Plazma: as in independant?
2020-09-12T13:52:24Z beach: CLOS does not use message passing.  It uses generic functions.  And a generic function is just like any other function.
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2020-09-12T13:53:04Z beach: An method in a "traditional" object-oriented language is not a function.  It doesn't exist without the message receiver.
2020-09-12T13:53:28Z beach: So there is typically no notation to map a method over a sequence of objects.
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2020-09-12T13:53:55Z Plazma: hmm..
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2020-09-12T13:54:36Z Plazma: beach: as in a method being utilized (the same method) for multiple objects?
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2020-09-12T13:55:17Z beach: That's what mapping is, yes.  You apply the same function to every objects in a sequence.
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2020-09-12T13:55:43Z beach: For instance, you can say (mapcar #'1+ '(1 2 3 4 5)) in Common Lisp.
2020-09-12T13:56:13Z beach: But if you have message passing, you can't do (mapcar #'method '(object1 object2 ...)).
2020-09-12T13:57:12Z Plazma: because you have to send multiple messages.. right?
2020-09-12T13:57:17Z beach: So you need to do something like (mapcar (lambda (object) object.method()) '(object1 object2...)) unless, of course they invented a special notation for that.
2020-09-12T13:58:01Z beach: In CLOS, it is just an ordinary function application.  No special treatment for the message receiver.  It is handled just like any other argument.
2020-09-12T13:58:13Z Plazma: huh , i see where that's useful
2020-09-12T13:58:18Z beach: So object.method becomes (method object) in Common Lisp.
2020-09-12T13:58:25Z Plazma: and i kinda think i like that generic treatment of things, in theory
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2020-09-12T13:58:41Z Josh_2: generic functions are very cool
2020-09-12T13:58:56Z Josh_2: so cool they wear sunglasses and have a leather jacket
2020-09-12T13:59:15Z Plazma: i need to get a pair of those for my cat
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2020-09-12T13:59:33Z beach: Plazma: Consider the (artificial) example of displaying figures on windows.  In a message-passing system, you have to decide whether to make the display method part of the figure class or the window class.
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2020-09-12T13:59:59Z beach: Plazma: And that decision has to be made early, which is typically too early.
2020-09-12T14:00:58Z beach: And you have to decide whether to write window.display(object) or object.display(window).
2020-09-12T14:01:26Z beach: In Common Lisp, you just say (display object window), or whatever order you prefer.  It makes no difference.
2020-09-12T14:02:14Z beach: And methods of the generic function can specialize on both parameters, as in (defmethod display ((object triangle) (window x11-window)) ...)
2020-09-12T14:02:28Z Plazma: hm
2020-09-12T14:02:31Z Plazma: interesting
2020-09-12T14:02:56Z beach: Interesting, sure, but also invaluable and unique.
2020-09-12T14:03:06Z Plazma: yea i'm trying to process it to be honest
2020-09-12T14:04:24Z beach: I am betting that, when you learn more about CLOS, that your appreciation for message passing will vanish.
2020-09-12T14:05:48Z beach: And multiple dispatch is but one feature of CLOS.  Auxiliary methods make some of the traditional design patterns disappear as well.
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2020-09-12T14:06:34Z beach: Method combinations come in very handy too.
2020-09-12T14:06:42Z Plazma: probably, if i can keep up and actually start using it more, and try to balance being stuck in academic/python land
2020-09-12T14:06:47Z beach: None of that stuff exists in traditional object-oriented languages.
2020-09-12T14:07:39Z beach: Why would academia make you stuck with Python.  I thought academia was one place where you are free to explore and choose your tools.
2020-09-12T14:07:40Z beach: No?
2020-09-12T14:08:00Z Plazma: well that's what a lot of the scientific libraries are in
2020-09-12T14:08:08Z Plazma: for machine learning, quantum computing, etc
2020-09-12T14:08:15Z beach: I am sorry to hear that.
2020-09-12T14:08:31Z Plazma: i mean you don't HAVE to, but yea.. and it's a mess
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2020-09-12T14:10:11Z beach: Are you sure about those libraries?  I mean, I would think those domains would need performance, and there is no way Python can provide that.  So I am guessing they are really written in C.  And if so, it would be even better to use them from Common Lisp, via CFFI or something like that.
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2020-09-12T14:11:07Z Plazma: beach: so it's more the API's themelves than anything, the libraries they reference are often originally in fortran or C, but there is something called CPython that it essenitally uses for the performance bits
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2020-09-12T14:11:25Z Plazma: i mean it's still slow as balls since a lot fo QC/ML is matrix math and mainpulations
2020-09-12T14:11:30Z Plazma: and factoring
2020-09-12T14:11:53Z beach: I am frankly amazed that academics would choose such a strategy.
2020-09-12T14:12:05Z Plazma: they're lazy
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2020-09-12T14:12:26Z Plazma: i wish i was kidding honestly
2020-09-12T14:12:28Z beach: Maybe scientists, like chemists, and physicists, but those domains are computing domains.
2020-09-12T14:12:38Z aeth: They're too busy doing research/teaching to write wrappers in languages that aren't Python.
2020-09-12T14:12:56Z Plazma: well alot of the need comes from chemists , physicists and such making/contributing to them, and then CS folks enhance them and go with it
2020-09-12T14:13:21Z Plazma: and they dont' want to be arsed with doing things in a better language overall
2020-09-12T14:13:27Z Plazma: python is easy and simple
2020-09-12T14:13:35Z Plazma: also aeth hit the nail on the head too, sadly
2020-09-12T14:13:38Z beach: Well, CS used to be viewed as a "service discipline" for the sciences, but I thought that ended some 2 decades ago.
2020-09-12T14:13:39Z Plazma: or another library that's 'better'
2020-09-12T14:14:00Z Plazma: beach: still is in some ways but it's got it's own street cred in the sciences too
2020-09-12T14:14:17Z Plazma: symbiotic relationships really
2020-09-12T14:14:21Z beach: Oh, well.  I am glad I can choose my tools.
2020-09-12T14:14:31Z Plazma: maths and physicists think they're good programmers and it shows :D
2020-09-12T14:14:36Z Plazma: chemists too
2020-09-12T14:15:07Z Plazma: but hey it works for everyone, somehow so
2020-09-12T14:15:35Z beach: Sort of.  But it's a huge waste of money, effort, and brain power.
2020-09-12T14:16:18Z beach: Anyway, we are drifting off topic.  So to summarize, CLOS is WAY better than traditional object-oriented languages.
2020-09-12T14:16:25Z Plazma: fair enough :D
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2020-09-12T14:22:12Z jcowan: Do people still use struct types with defined representations?  I see the logic of the unnamed variety: someone passes you a list or vector (perhaps from an FFI) where each element has a distinct meaning, and by imposing a struct convention on it so that it's easier to work with.
2020-09-12T14:22:35Z jcowan:   But the named variety is more mysterious.  Why would you use those rather than ordinary structs?  It's unlikely that some external system will conveniently plant a symbol, or whatever, in element 0.
2020-09-12T14:24:07Z aeth: beach: I disagree a bit. I see foo(bar, x) and bar.foo(x) as essentially equivalent. So (foo bar x) and (dot bar foo x) or something like that. I mean, it's not quite the same because it's often more like (send-message bar 'foo x) or something... but OOP in a cross-language sense is pretty loosely defined in general.
2020-09-12T14:25:50Z jcowan: OOP is a ridiculously flexible term.  For each writer on the subject, OOP is either defined as good (in which case we want our system to be OOP) or as bad (in which case we our system not to be OOP but something else much better).
2020-09-12T14:25:53Z aeth: It's just that bar.foo(x) can make sense over foo(bar, x) if you only have single dispatch and you're an infix language, although if it's not just syntactic sugar for foo(bar, x) then you still can't use it in a map().
2020-09-12T14:26:30Z Plazma: could be like golang and reverse everything and don't use objects but structs
2020-09-12T14:26:35Z Plazma: :P
2020-09-12T14:26:41Z jcowan: Note that Lua doesn't care which syntax you use
2020-09-12T14:27:01Z jcowan: s/we our/we want our
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2020-09-12T14:39:25Z beach: aeth: You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.
2020-09-12T14:41:17Z jcowan: aeth: Perhaps one should allow it to be written as "foo .bar x", without the parens.
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2020-09-12T14:44:42Z beach: Plazma: The thing with Common Lisp is that it does not have this silly idea that traditional object-oriented languages have, namely that classes are both for data representation and for encapsulation.  In Common Lisp, those aspects are handled by two different features.  Classes are for data representation, and packages are for encapsulation.
2020-09-12T14:44:43Z beach: So in Common Lisp, saying that something is an "object" does not restrict what it is very much.  An integer is an object just like a stream or a symbol.  And you can write methods that specialize to integers, like (defmethod add3 ((x integer)) (+ x 3))
2020-09-12T14:44:57Z beach: This is the sane way of doing object-oriented programming.
2020-09-12T14:45:42Z beach: No doubt aeth will disagree, but again, aeth is entitled to disagree.
2020-09-12T14:46:49Z Plazma: oh hmm
2020-09-12T14:46:52Z Plazma: that's interesting
2020-09-12T14:46:53Z beach: Plazma: And every Common Lisp object has a unique class.  (CLASS-OF X) will return a class object for any X.
2020-09-12T14:46:55Z phoe: I thought he's disagreeing about a different point though
2020-09-12T14:47:01Z jcowan: I agree as far as classes go, but packages are very weak encapsulations indeed.  Closures, on the other hand, are good encapsulations, just hard to use as things stand.
2020-09-12T14:47:22Z jcowan: s/go//
2020-09-12T14:47:30Z beach: jcowan: I don't believe in preventing programmers from doing things.
2020-09-12T14:47:32Z phoe: I understood that his point is that single dispatch OO/message passing is a natural subset of multiple dispatch OO
2020-09-12T14:48:10Z phoe: and that foo.bar(baz) is therefore equivalent to (bar foo baz) with specialization on FOO
2020-09-12T14:48:17Z jcowan: A subset, certainly:  {3, 1, 4, 5, 9} is a subset of the integers, but who cares?
2020-09-12T14:48:24Z beach: jcowan: It makes it nearly impossible to write programming tools like debuggers.
2020-09-12T14:49:02Z phoe: whereas (bar foo baz) with specializations on both FOO and BAZ has no direct equivalence in single-dispatch OO without a dispatcher/strategy design pattern
2020-09-12T14:49:04Z jcowan: That is because, for better and worse, we have no way of breaking the encapsulation of closures when we need to.
2020-09-12T14:49:06Z phoe: and that gets ugly immediately
2020-09-12T14:49:41Z jcowan: Yes.  Been there, done that, trying to add new numeric types to Smalltalk.
2020-09-12T14:49:49Z phoe: yes, exactly
2020-09-12T14:49:54Z beach: jcowan: And if we could, their strength would be similar to that of Common Lisp packages, and the use of closures as objects would just be more cumbersome.
2020-09-12T14:49:55Z aeth: phoe: Exactly that, with the added point that . notation only really seems desirable at all if the language is infix in the first place.
2020-09-12T14:50:12Z aeth: since it infixifies a method function
2020-09-12T14:50:25Z aeth: (or at least, something that could be done this way, if it was a well-designed single-dispatch system)
2020-09-12T14:50:25Z phoe: so, "who cares"
2020-09-12T14:50:41Z phoe: jcowan: I think that tons of people who do single-dispatch languages are forced to care whenever they write them
2020-09-12T14:51:01Z phoe: I'm glad that I don't need to care about that in Lisp
2020-09-12T14:51:13Z beach: A "well-designed single-dispatch system" has got to be a contradiction.
2020-09-12T14:51:31Z jcowan: Having procedures like closure-alist and its converse are hardly comparable to adding a single extra colon.
2020-09-12T14:52:09Z aeth: beach: well, in the sense that it wouldn't remain like that for long because a well-designed single-dispatch system should be fairly easily extensible to a multiple-dispatch one
2020-09-12T14:53:43Z jcowan: At least one system (forgive me for forgetting its name) has in its evolution backed off from multiple dispatch to single-specified-argument dispatch, finding that it's more efficient and handled almost all their existing code.
2020-09-12T14:54:05Z jcowan: So people were writing MD code but not actually exploiting it that much.
2020-09-12T14:54:21Z beach: That must be because the didn't know how to do multiple dispatch efficiently.
2020-09-12T14:54:35Z beach: Probably it was in the days when table-driven techniques were the norm.
2020-09-12T14:54:38Z aeth: jcowan: MD does seem fairly rare in practice, but I don't see how the presence of MD would significantly slow down the SD common path.
2020-09-12T14:55:22Z beach: aeth: That's a very valid point.  I see absolutely no reason for that.
2020-09-12T14:55:29Z jcowan: (If I wasn't clear, the idea is that you get to say for each generic function which argument it will be dispatched on.)
2020-09-12T14:55:38Z beach: Especially since one way of doing multiple dispatch is to cascade single dispatch.
2020-09-12T14:56:26Z beach: jcowan: How is that better than being able to choose any SUBSET of the arguments, in ANY ORDER?
2020-09-12T14:56:27Z jcowan: That is precisely the dispatcher pattern that phoe mentioned above.
2020-09-12T14:56:27Z aeth: beach: which is exactly the kind of approach I'd intuitively look into first if I had to implement it
2020-09-12T14:56:54Z jcowan: aeth: So did I.
2020-09-12T14:56:56Z phoe: jcowan: the difference is that it's implicit
2020-09-12T14:57:02Z phoe: the programming system dispatches for you
2020-09-12T14:57:03Z beach: But it's also a silly way of doing it.
2020-09-12T14:57:13Z phoe: instead of you explicitly needing to write, code, and use the dispatcher
2020-09-12T14:57:23Z jcowan: Absolutely.  But macros.
2020-09-12T14:57:40Z beach: I am betting there are also limitations to doing it one argument at a time.
2020-09-12T14:57:54Z jcowan scratches his head
2020-09-12T14:57:56Z phoe: multiple dispatch and single dispatch are equivalent from the mathematical point of view since you can implement one in terms of the other and then (meta)circularly
2020-09-12T14:58:01Z jcowan: Well of course there are, compared to MD.
2020-09-12T14:58:20Z phoe: the question is which one has the best tradeoffs for the given problem at hand.
2020-09-12T14:58:25Z jcowan: Oh, wait, you mean efficiency limitations, beach?
2020-09-12T14:58:31Z beach: No.
2020-09-12T14:58:33Z beach: Like if you have a method ((x class) y) and another (x (y class))
2020-09-12T14:59:24Z jcowan: Can you explain further?
2020-09-12T14:59:41Z beach: But yeah, I am betting you can do better (performance wise) if you have all the information available to the dispatcher for all the parameters.
2020-09-12T15:00:11Z beach: I may be wrong, but how would this situation be handled by cascading single dispatch?
2020-09-12T15:00:26Z jcowan: Surely.  In a whole-program compiler where you have all the information about all the calls as well, you can probably do even better.
2020-09-12T15:00:38Z beach: We do, though.
2020-09-12T15:00:49Z jcowan: (with thoroughgoing type inference, I mean)
2020-09-12T15:00:53Z beach: It is just that we collect that information as we go.
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2020-09-12T15:01:43Z beach: It has the additional advantage that a call that is never actually executed does not influence the result.
2020-09-12T15:01:47Z jcowan: Something like "assign a small integer to all types in the system, then represent the call possibilities as a bitmap", for instance.
2020-09-12T15:02:12Z jcowan: True.  But I still don't understand the force of your ((x class) y) example.
2020-09-12T15:02:38Z beach: Like I said, I may be wrong, but I don't see how to simulate it with cascading single dispatch.
2020-09-12T15:02:45Z beach: Maybe someone can help me.
2020-09-12T15:03:18Z jcowan: Why is it any different from ((x some-type) y)?
2020-09-12T15:04:03Z beach: It isn't.  Just that there are two methods, and one specializes only on the first argument and the other one only on the second.
2020-09-12T15:04:37Z jcowan: OIC.  Which reminds me that another thing I dislike about CL's MD (and MI) is that they arbitrarily resolve ambiguities instead of signaling an error about them.
2020-09-12T15:04:48Z beach: Of course.
2020-09-12T15:05:03Z jcowan: Self is good on both points.
2020-09-12T15:05:20Z beach: I mean, "of course you would dislike that".  But I much prefer consistent behavior.
2020-09-12T15:05:37Z jcowan: What's inconsistent about treating ambiguity as an error?
2020-09-12T15:06:03Z beach: You have a point.  "consistent" was the wrong term.
2020-09-12T15:06:26Z beach: I don't have a good name for the behavior I prefer.
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2020-09-12T15:06:44Z Alfr_: beach, I think we have the same problem in CL. But a default resolution strategy is defined, something about ordering applicable methods.
2020-09-12T15:06:49Z jcowan: How about "artificial"?  :-)
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2020-09-12T15:07:08Z aeth: perhaps "implicit" behavior?
2020-09-12T15:07:19Z ggole: Isn't that class example much like pattern matching? eg, match (a, b) with (C, _) -> 1 | (_, C) -> 2? There are well-known techniques for translating this to single-branching decision trees (or similar constructs)
2020-09-12T15:07:37Z Alfr_: beach, and then there also is :argument-precedence-order to make unintuitive cases.
2020-09-12T15:07:37Z beach: Alfr_: Yes, but could that situation be handled by cascading single dispatch?
2020-09-12T15:07:39Z ggole: Although with pattern matching you get all the rows up front, which surely helps
2020-09-12T15:08:10Z phoe: beach: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2050#2050
2020-09-12T15:08:13Z phoe: I imagine it would be like that
2020-09-12T15:08:42Z aeth: ggole: class dispatch sounds a lot like pattern matching to me... a lot of the time, at least ime, the design choice is between typecase or defmethod (where defmethod increasingly wins out the more dispatches you need to do, like e.g. dispatching two sides (human, remote human, AI) in a chess game)
2020-09-12T15:08:54Z phoe: a bit more contrived, since then you'd need to search for the methods some more
2020-09-12T15:08:57Z beach: phoe: That doesn't look like cascading single dispatch though.
2020-09-12T15:09:03Z phoe: wait a second
2020-09-12T15:09:20Z beach: It looks like both arguments are involved in both branches of the outermost IF.
2020-09-12T15:09:29Z phoe: oh, yes, I see what you mean
2020-09-12T15:09:42Z phoe: yep, this requires a dispatcher pattern
2020-09-12T15:09:52Z phoe: (dispatch dispatcher foo bar) where DISPATCHER is specialized on
2020-09-12T15:10:05Z jcowan: Reading C3/Dylan articles about the hard-to-predict behavior of CL class flattening shows how anti-lawful it is. ("C3" means you get a consistent global graph that preserves local order and is monotonic.)
2020-09-12T15:10:07Z phoe: and then this code is the body of its DISPATCH method
2020-09-12T15:10:31Z jcowan: Concisely put: "The C3 superclass linearization of a class is the sum of the class plus a unique merge of the linearizations of its parents and a list of the parents itself. The list of parents as the last argument to the merge process preserves the local precedence order of direct parent classes."
2020-09-12T15:11:36Z shka_: yeah, C3 is accepted to solve some kind of problem
2020-09-12T15:11:42Z shka_: ... that i never encountered
2020-09-12T15:12:04Z jcowan: We all hope we never do.
2020-09-12T15:12:07Z Alfr_: beach, the default left-to-right one, I think you then could simply dispatches on the first match, in your example ((x some-type) y). And for (x (y class)), wouldn't (x t) simply only have to dispatch further on y's type?
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2020-09-12T15:12:31Z Alfr_: beach, not entirely sure, just woke up. :D And I didn't say it'd be pretty.
2020-09-12T15:13:20Z phoe: Alfr_: an alternative form of this question is how to express it in the Java-like dot method call notation
2020-09-12T15:13:24Z beach: You may be right.  I just have this hunch that cascading single dispatch can't do everything that multiple dispatch can.  Maybe some day I'll dig into it and write a paper about what I find.
2020-09-12T15:13:40Z phoe: IMO in this case, it would be dispatcher.dispatch(foo, bar)
2020-09-12T15:14:15Z beach: Certainly, I can imagine performance issues, where it would be a better idea to go back and forth between arguments to determine an effective method to call.
2020-09-12T15:15:02Z shka_: phoe: more like findEffectiveMethod(methodName, foo, bar).execute(foo)
2020-09-12T15:15:17Z shka_: or something
2020-09-12T15:15:28Z phoe: sure, if findEffectiveMethod is a static function of some sort
2020-09-12T15:15:31Z Alfr_: jcowan, it it's that paper I think I've read, then they also noted that in most of their test cases C3 didn't produce a different ordering than CLOS.
2020-09-12T15:15:37Z beach: Sorry, "effective-method FUNCTION" to call.  An effective method can't be called.
2020-09-12T15:15:40Z jcowan: https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.19.3910&rep=rep1&type=pdf is the Dylan article
2020-09-12T15:15:56Z phoe: but then you need a way to extend findEffectiveMethod in some way
2020-09-12T15:16:10Z jcowan: Yes, indeed, as shka_ said.  You hope this (arguable) bug in CL never bites you.
2020-09-12T15:16:11Z shka_: as for what multiple dispatch can do and cascading dispatch can't
2020-09-12T15:16:13Z phoe: e.g. Java won't let you do that in a nice and pleasant manner.
2020-09-12T15:17:19Z shka_: in theory i think that cascading dispatch can do everything, it is just in practice it is awkward
2020-09-12T15:17:30Z phoe: in theory sure, they're equivalent
2020-09-12T15:17:49Z shka_: the visitor pattern in particular is designed to go around single dispatch
2020-09-12T15:18:24Z shka_: and oh boy, it is as awkward as it gets
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2020-09-12T15:18:59Z shka_: and again, you often can avoid using it, but sometimes at the performance hit
2020-09-12T15:19:22Z Alfr_: phoe, if you'd ask me to do it, I'd probably just somehow slap the clos behaviour onto it maybe using C3 for ordering; and define it as what you get in that case. lol
2020-09-12T15:19:24Z shka_: for instance, at work we had a basic CL:MAP like function
2020-09-12T15:19:35Z shka_: it worked by taking iterator
2020-09-12T15:19:44Z phoe: Alfr_: at which point you no longer have a single dispatch system :D
2020-09-12T15:19:48Z shka_: and then moving that iterator forward
2020-09-12T15:20:04Z shka_: each move forward was a method call
2020-09-12T15:20:48Z shka_: after switching to the visitor it became possible to remove iterator and operate directly on the data structure, therefore removing virtual method call penalty
2020-09-12T15:21:03Z shka_: it really made a difference in this case
2020-09-12T15:21:39Z Alfr_: phoe, I was more thinking about how to emulate, if you'd like, it given single dispatch. And currently that'd require a ton of boilerplate in java I guess.
2020-09-12T15:22:07Z shka_: Alfr_: the visitor pattern is how you do it
2020-09-12T15:22:36Z shka_: maybe java has some reflection stuff that can help you
2020-09-12T15:22:42Z shka_: or you can use Clojure
2020-09-12T15:24:55Z shka_: oh, visitor is also typically slower then a direct multiple dispatch
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2020-09-12T15:25:44Z Alfr_: shka_, thanks, heared of it. But I honestly don't know what that is right now.
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2020-09-12T15:26:11Z shka_: you can google it
2020-09-12T15:26:30Z shka_: heh, it is a beach-like thing to say
2020-09-12T15:26:42Z shka_: but consider programming in the CL instead
2020-09-12T15:26:45Z shka_: ;-)
2020-09-12T15:26:47Z Alfr_: shka_, yeah already put it on my bucket list.
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2020-09-12T15:27:08Z Alfr_: shka_, some time soon™.
2020-09-12T15:27:37Z shka_: hopefully!
2020-09-12T15:27:46Z shka_: ok, got to go, take care
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2020-09-12T15:38:08Z jcowan: any feedback on my question about list-structs and vector-structs?
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2020-09-12T15:40:54Z Bike: what question was that? i'm missing it in the logs
2020-09-12T15:41:27Z Bike: oh, way up there, i see
2020-09-12T15:42:05Z Bike: i'd say it's rare to use structs at all and even rarer to use the typed kind
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2020-09-12T15:42:55Z Bike: i always assumed the feature was a holdover from the old world
2020-09-12T15:44:04Z jcowan: Probably true.  But getting (typed) vectors of this kind from the FFI, where the vector is really a struct on the other side, can't be rare, and copying them into standard structs/classes seems a bit useless.
2020-09-12T15:46:21Z Bike: why would copying it into a standard structure of class be more useless than copying it into a vector?
2020-09-12T15:46:25Z Bike: or class*
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2020-09-12T15:48:26Z jcowan: I'm assuming your FFI puts it into a vector already, because it doesn't know what class it is.  Your code does, and this allows it to be used as a struct without copying it again.  If my assumption is bad, let me know.
2020-09-12T15:48:38Z jcowan: s/class it is/& on the C side/
2020-09-12T15:50:22Z Bike: i believe how it works in cffi is that by default it returns a plist, but you can specialize some generic functions to get whatever object you like
2020-09-12T15:50:25Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/translate_002dfrom_002dforeign.html
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2020-09-12T15:51:14Z Bike: and that function deals with the foreign memory directly, so there's no double copy
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2020-09-12T15:52:16Z jcowan: I'll read that in detail, but I don't understand how it can deal with the foreign memory directly *and* return a plist, as the foreign memory is going to use full-word (or the like) representations.
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2020-09-12T15:53:18Z Bike: as far as i know it's some arbitrary c object, so it could have slots with a different layout than a series of words
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2020-09-12T15:53:26Z Bike: you have to teach cffi how the c memory is laid out using defcstruct
2020-09-12T15:53:33Z Bike: then it knows the offsets and sizes and all
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2020-09-12T15:56:58Z jcowan: Ah, that's reasonable.  I have a design like that for Scheme, where you write a nested-list schema that describes the struct/union and all its parts, including other structs/unions.  There are two interfaces, a macro one where the schema is constant (and can be compiled) and a procedural one where it is an object.
2020-09-12T15:58:39Z Bike: an ffi where you can only deal with word sequences seems pretty limiting. i mean, wouldn't you need to write bridge code in C for any C system with any objects that don't fit that mold?
2020-09-12T16:00:19Z jcowan: Not sure I understand which idea you're talking about.
2020-09-12T16:01:02Z Bike: i don't understand "as the foreign memory is going to use full-word representations". i mean, in general it's not, right?
2020-09-12T16:03:10Z jcowan: In general, no.  I was thinking about the case when it is.
2020-09-12T16:03:27Z jcowan: And by full-word I meant as opposed to fixnum or bignum representations.
2020-09-12T16:04:18Z jcowan: Chicken Scheme's FFI special-cases bignums with two bigits: any more than two on the Lisp->C and it raises an error, on the C->Lisp side it is prepared to create either depending on the value.
2020-09-12T16:04:37Z jcowan: either a fixnum or a 2-bigit bignum
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2020-09-12T16:51:54Z Plazma: So code signing is a separate process after compilation yes?
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2020-09-12T17:02:21Z phoe: signing? you mean like when Apple complains that your application isn't notarized or something?
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2020-09-12T17:12:04Z Plazma: Phoe that yea basically
2020-09-12T17:13:06Z Plazma: But it's also a security feature to sign binaries I'm general for authenticity even on the desktop
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2020-09-12T17:13:23Z phoe: you usually want to do that after dumping the image, yes
2020-09-12T17:13:39Z phoe: md5sum and gpg are the way to go
2020-09-12T17:14:21Z Plazma: Yea ok cool
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2020-09-12T17:19:21Z jackdaniel: my app sing songs
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2020-09-12T17:41:10Z Bike: https://github.com/Bike/iterator i wrote this on kind of a whim and i'm curious if anyone has thoughts on it/could use it. you can do things like (map (accumulator nil :from-end t) #'1+ (iterator (vector 4 5 6) :start 1)) => (7 6)
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2020-09-12T18:02:48Z jackdaniel: 20h project, sounds like fun :)
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2020-09-12T18:28:59Z kelamir[m]: Do you all prefer I capitalize your nicknames or leave them lowercase?
2020-09-12T18:29:24Z kelamir[m]: IRC by default has lowercase nicknames, if I am not mistaken.
2020-09-12T18:30:57Z Josh_2: Why not just reproduce them as you see them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-09-12T18:31:00Z emacsomancer: kelamir[m]: I think you should stick to however people have them, so those of us who have notifiers when we're mentioned will indeed get notifications
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2020-09-12T18:34:47Z kelamir[m]: Makes sense. Thanks, Josh_2, Emacsomancer!
2020-09-12T18:35:21Z emacsomancer: kelamir[m]: (hmm, though it turns out my notifier is smart enough to ignore case)
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2020-09-12T18:46:13Z phoe: kelamir[m]: I prefer as-is; I assume that people democratically capitalize their nicks if they want them capitalized
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2020-09-12T20:12:09Z jcowan: When I'm writing prose, I write in the conventions of prose: proper names are capitalized.
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2020-09-12T20:18:30Z phoe: I mean, with names and such, it's a slightly different thing for me
2020-09-12T20:19:12Z phoe: so, John Cowan, but jcowan
2020-09-12T20:19:56Z jcowan: I'd guess (if I didn't know) that that was JCowan and alphabetize accordingly.  Otherwise I'd fall back on the default, like Phoe.
2020-09-12T20:20:07Z jcowan: (resisting the temptation to write Phoë)
2020-09-12T20:20:31Z kelamir[m]: Am I right to assume your name is John Cowan, jcowan?
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2020-09-12T20:20:31Z jcowan: s/alphabetize/spell
2020-09-12T20:20:35Z jcowan: It is.
2020-09-12T20:20:37Z phoe: ;; to tell the absolute truth, I'm actually Peter Hoe
2020-09-12T20:20:46Z jcowan: Okay, PHoe it is.
2020-09-12T20:21:13Z phoe: ah, yes, I have achieved the worst of all capitalizations of my nickname
2020-09-12T20:21:25Z phoe:  /s
2020-09-12T20:21:31Z jcowan: Well, that's why you want to pronounce it in two syllables
2020-09-12T20:21:38Z jcowan: hence the diaeresis
2020-09-12T20:21:55Z phoe: no, sarcasm aside now, it's phoe as in φ, since it comes from "phoenix"
2020-09-12T20:22:04Z kelamir[m]: phoe is a nice nickname 🙂
2020-09-12T20:22:07Z phoe: ;; and my real name has nothing to do with my nickname
2020-09-12T20:22:48Z Alfr_: cafe?...
2020-09-12T20:22:54Z phoe: oh yes
2020-09-12T20:23:00Z phoe goes to the #lispcafe
2020-09-12T20:23:01Z jcowan: Olright, back to Phoë.
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2020-09-13T01:10:38Z Plazma: So is there a list somewhere that goes over what lisp may not be good at or the right tools for?
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2020-09-13T01:23:45Z xristos: Plazma: anything UI-related, web, parallelism, minimalism, embedded scripting, maybe multimedia and games
2020-09-13T01:24:05Z xristos: this is for CL, my personal views, others will disagree ;p
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2020-09-13T01:25:04Z xristos: you can do all of these things in CL, but you'll be swimming against the tide
2020-09-13T01:26:36Z xristos: i'm also ignoring the commercial CL implementations that have solutions to some of these domains
2020-09-13T01:27:35Z phantomics: CL is great for building React apps
2020-09-13T01:29:00Z phantomics: Instead of using something like Redux to implement a consistent data model across components, you can use a macro that implements components based on a common template
2020-09-13T01:30:05Z phantomics: That way you avoid the inconsistency of hand-wired components but you're not piling on more stuff at runtime
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2020-09-13T01:37:20Z Plazma: Wow xristos what's left for it to be good at :p
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2020-09-13T01:41:40Z xristos: Plazma: what's left is exactly what you should be using CL for
2020-09-13T01:41:46Z xristos: problems that don't have well-defined solutions
2020-09-13T01:42:14Z Plazma: Ah fair enough
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2020-09-13T01:43:57Z xristos: i'd also posit that a lot of people here are willing to put in extra effort and time, to solve a problem with CL even if CL is not a good fit
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2020-09-13T01:44:06Z xristos: for many reasons
2020-09-13T01:45:10Z Lycurgus: and yet how often you see something you think should be in lisp (or similar) and sometimes in fact was, but now it is java or python
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2020-09-13T01:45:45Z Lycurgus: like the knowledge engineering text from 2016 whose implementation was done in java
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2020-09-13T01:46:30Z xristos: Lycurgus: well if you used Lisp to explore the domain and come up with a solution and later decide to rework it to be more accessible in a different language, no harm done
2020-09-13T01:46:36Z xristos: Lisp has done its job in my book
2020-09-13T01:47:26Z Lycurgus: in my book: harm
2020-09-13T01:47:49Z Lycurgus: barring contractual obligations and the like
2020-09-13T01:48:36Z Lycurgus: it generally comes across as a sell out so that a broader application of labor is possible
2020-09-13T01:49:27Z Lycurgus: and it's always great when you see stuff that didn. e.g. SNEPS, which actually did a lil bit but then went back
2020-09-13T01:49:38Z Lycurgus: that's somewhat common too
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2020-09-13T01:50:41Z Lycurgus: btw if Parmenides is being revived can FRuleKit be far behind?
2020-09-13T01:52:07Z Lycurgus: going back to cl is less common than staying sold out or bit rotting
2020-09-13T01:54:33Z Lycurgus: at least keep the cl version current and the main dev one
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2020-09-13T02:20:12Z _death: Lycurgus: I added frulekit code yesterday.. it shouldn't be hard to get it to run
2020-09-13T02:21:00Z Lycurgus: added it where?
2020-09-13T02:21:11Z _death: https://github.com/death/Parmenides
2020-09-13T02:21:25Z Lycurgus: ah, ty will look at it in a bit
2020-09-13T02:22:14Z Lycurgus: (i already had the last source state ofc)
2020-09-13T02:22:59Z _death: I am playing programmer ping pong.. currently waiting for someone else to do some work before I resume
2020-09-13T02:23:24Z Lycurgus: non-cooperatively?
2020-09-13T02:23:44Z Lycurgus: i.e by serendip oder?
2020-09-13T02:24:17Z _death: Lycurgus: cooperatively.. you can fork, make changes and pull request, and then I'll do changes, and then you, etc.
2020-09-13T02:24:26Z Lycurgus: i c
2020-09-13T02:26:06Z _death: for the frulekit code, the first step is to create an asdf system for it.. then get it to compile and load
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2020-09-13T02:44:50Z jcowan: xristos: I thought ECL was all about embedded scripting.
2020-09-13T02:47:16Z aeth: I'd object to the "parallelism" part. CL is better than the median language at parallelism. I mean, some languages aren't even parallel at all so... probably in the top 20%, if not better.
2020-09-13T02:48:00Z Lycurgus: actually the first step for frulekit is evaluate it as a rete in today's context
2020-09-13T02:48:26Z aeth: e.g. Python has the GIL (and you can't just remove it in third party implementations because of the implicit race conditions in popular libraries that no one tested for)... OCaml is still trying to be updated for multicore. And a bunch of other examples...
2020-09-13T02:49:06Z aeth: So quite a few languages have a much bleaker situation here, unlike, say, UI, where CL's user experience currently really is pretty bad
2020-09-13T02:50:08Z Lycurgus: well raggedy i'd call it, not actually bad, just a lot of ports that didn make it all the way to fungible
2020-09-13T02:50:15Z Lycurgus: yet
2020-09-13T02:50:54Z Lycurgus: stuff close to base clx seems to be OK last I checked
2020-09-13T02:51:27Z Lycurgus: no doubt a general reflorit will goose that into shape
2020-09-13T02:51:40Z Lycurgus: (of lisp as the AI lang of choice)
2020-09-13T02:53:31Z Lycurgus: haskell is a role model, it's amazing how far they've come in the last 15 y
2020-09-13T02:53:51Z Lycurgus: (overall not UI specifically)
2020-09-13T02:56:49Z Lycurgus: these days UI kinda wants to be in js, is there a cl ui thing that goes in that direction?
2020-09-13T02:57:17Z Lycurgus: like squeakjs
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2020-09-13T03:20:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-09-13T03:22:39Z Lycurgus: moin beach
2020-09-13T03:28:03Z xristos: jcowan: it sure is but i'd pick Lua every time
2020-09-13T03:28:40Z xristos: or pick from any number of schemes
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2020-09-13T03:35:10Z copec: [I'm doing some experimenting with my own pseudo-graph engine] Would it be considered bad form to defclass a new subclass with mixins determined by the data when opening a file of my own format?
2020-09-13T03:36:36Z beach: I don't see why it would be bad.
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2020-09-13T03:44:04Z copec: Do you happen to know how the various implementation store object instances of a class beach? Is each instance its own discrete object in memory? Or is it more like a table with instances versus slots for each class?
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2020-09-13T03:45:03Z copec: The AoMOP book example does it like a table iirc
2020-09-13T03:45:30Z beach: I can't imagine any implementation other than the former.  The objects must be subject to garbage collection as any other object, so they would have to be allocated like any others.
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2020-09-13T03:47:05Z beach: I don't remember that example in the book, but if they did it that way, it must have been just an example for illustrating some point.
2020-09-13T03:47:40Z copec: Yeah, I figured it was for illustration purposes of lisp in lisp
2020-09-13T03:50:03Z copec: thanks beach
2020-09-13T03:51:33Z beach: Sure.
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2020-09-13T12:10:08Z ebrasca: How to check if string contain some text
2020-09-13T12:10:50Z ebrasca: like some text starting with "MAIL FROM:<" then some email adres and end with ">"
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2020-09-13T12:11:04Z Josh_2: regex?
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2020-09-13T12:13:18Z treflip: ebrasca: you need a regular expression
2020-09-13T12:13:18Z ebrasca: Josh_2: Can I check if email adress is correct with regex?
2020-09-13T12:13:28Z no-defun-allowed: Checking email validity with a regex is one of those highly cursed things you shouldn't do, but matching "MAIL FROM:<(.*)>" could work if I remember POSIX syntax right.
2020-09-13T12:15:03Z ebrasca: Why it is cursed?
2020-09-13T12:16:22Z phoe: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/201323/how-to-validate-an-email-address-using-a-regular-expression
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2020-09-13T12:16:28Z phoe: because it's 446 characters long
2020-09-13T12:16:43Z no-defun-allowed: I was looking for that exact post, but yes.
2020-09-13T12:18:19Z no-defun-allowed: But I don't think you'll see <> or whitespace in an email address, so (.*) would work fine.
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2020-09-13T13:19:26Z AeroNotix: hi - when converting between lisp numbers and C ints. How do I convert a C integer into a Lisp number?
2020-09-13T13:19:36Z AeroNotix: and vice versa
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2020-09-13T13:20:27Z AeroNotix: There's `cffi:translate-to-foreign` but it doesn't appear there's an  implementation for ints. Even still, I am not sure exactly how you would translate.
2020-09-13T13:20:58Z AeroNotix: my initial thought is to write a function which would look at the raw memory and translate it that way. Am I thinking about this wrong?
2020-09-13T13:21:16Z AeroNotix: It feels super unergonomic when dealing with ints in CFFI and nothing I've seen in the documentation points to a simpler mechanism.
2020-09-13T13:23:06Z AeroNotix: specifically I am dealing with a C library that uses a lot of int*'s.
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2020-09-13T13:28:10Z beach: Maybe you can write a Common Lisp replacement for that library.
2020-09-13T13:28:39Z AeroNotix: beach: it's pretty complicated
2020-09-13T13:28:49Z AeroNotix: beach: any way it looks like I was just overlooking cffi:mem-ref
2020-09-13T13:28:53Z beach: So does your debugging experience seem to be.
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2020-09-13T13:29:29Z AeroNotix: beach: it's much easier to wrap a library implementing QUIC+HTTp3 than it is to write it from scratch :)
2020-09-13T13:30:04Z beach: For you individually, perhaps.  But you would do a favor to others if you would write a Common Lisp replacement.
2020-09-13T13:30:23Z AeroNotix: beach: my rate is $95/h if you're interested
2020-09-13T13:30:41Z beach: I see.
2020-09-13T13:31:15Z phoe: AeroNotix: wait, a C integer into a Lisp number?
2020-09-13T13:31:29Z AeroNotix: phoe: yeah disregard, I think. I was overthinking things
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2020-09-13T13:31:56Z phoe: cffi:mem-ref with proper type
2020-09-13T13:32:05Z phoe: s/type/foreign type/
2020-09-13T13:32:06Z AeroNotix: yup that works. I was misunderstanding what it would do
2020-09-13T13:32:31Z AeroNotix: My understanding was flawed. I was thinking the memory layout / representation of a C int would be incompatible with Lisp numbers
2020-09-13T13:32:36Z beach: phoe: Maybe you should charge for that help.
2020-09-13T13:32:40Z phoe: it dereferences C pointers and converts the result into a Lisp value, so from an int* you get an int
2020-09-13T13:32:44Z AeroNotix: beach: I'd be happy to pay
2020-09-13T13:32:53Z beach: Good to know.
2020-09-13T13:33:38Z AeroNotix: beach: i get your initial point, but just suggesting to rewrite a complicated project in Lisp vs trying to use it directly is just a bonkers way to approach things :)
2020-09-13T13:33:41Z phoe: beach: sure, if the rate is $95 per hour then I'll get ~¢40 since answering that took me like ten seconds
2020-09-13T13:33:56Z AeroNotix: phoe: where do you want it sent. I can pay in PLN
2020-09-13T13:34:18Z phoe: https://www.paypal.me/phoekrk is fine
2020-09-13T13:35:02Z AeroNotix: sent 1.50zl
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2020-09-13T13:35:16Z AeroNotix: beach: happy?
2020-09-13T13:35:40Z phoe: this is a proof that one can make money on Lisp
2020-09-13T13:36:09Z AeroNotix: I was genuinely gonna approach this channel in a few weeks to pay for some lisp work if the current thing I've working on pans out
2020-09-13T13:36:23Z AeroNotix: s/I've/I'm
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2020-09-13T13:40:40Z AeroNotix: There was a PDF floating around for a Lisp OS that I think Strandh was working on. Anyone remember it?
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2020-09-13T13:41:05Z phoe: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf ?
2020-09-13T13:41:22Z AeroNotix: yup this
2020-09-13T13:41:24Z AeroNotix: thanks
2020-09-13T13:41:38Z AeroNotix: Was there ever an implementation of this?
2020-09-13T13:41:50Z beach: No.
2020-09-13T13:42:02Z beach: Not yet, I should say.
2020-09-13T13:42:21Z AeroNotix: beach: are you Strandh? I forget people's real names in here
2020-09-13T13:42:33Z beach: Yes, that's what "beach" means.
2020-09-13T13:42:37Z AeroNotix: oh
2020-09-13T13:42:39Z AeroNotix: ok
2020-09-13T13:43:20Z beach: I am still working on SICL, which I think of as the basis of CLOSOS.
2020-09-13T13:43:23Z AeroNotix: I was playing with Mezzanno for a while. Interesting project.
2020-09-13T13:43:30Z beach: Definitely.
2020-09-13T13:44:13Z AeroNotix: Could I just drop SICL in to replace whichever implementation I use now??
2020-09-13T13:44:51Z beach: Not yet.  But the plan is for it to be ANSI compliant when it's done.
2020-09-13T13:45:00Z AeroNotix: ok
2020-09-13T13:45:39Z AeroNotix: eh, I need my freenode password to join #sicl.
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2020-09-13T17:10:58Z ebrasca: beach: Hi , can I contribute code to seconds-climacs?
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2020-09-13T17:36:18Z phoe: beach: TCLCS will be about 320 pages after typesetting.
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2020-09-13T19:58:19Z mseddon: Phoe: what is the full title and when can I give you money for it? ;)
2020-09-13T19:58:48Z phoe: mseddon: The Common Lisp Condition System, you can already give me money for it
2020-09-13T19:58:48Z Plazma: oh i'll give phoe money , for what
2020-09-13T19:58:58Z phoe: https://www.apress.com/us/book/9781484261330
2020-09-13T19:59:05Z mseddon: Take my money!
2020-09-13T19:59:20Z phoe: it's a preorder at the moment, but I have just sent the final remarks to Apress so you could expect that the book would start being available later this month
2020-09-13T20:01:28Z Plazma: phoe: holy shit that's your book?
2020-09-13T20:01:45Z phoe: Plazma: yes, that's my book
2020-09-13T20:01:54Z Plazma: wow man congrats! i didn't know you were so well accomplished
2020-09-13T20:01:59Z phoe: neither did I
2020-09-13T20:02:04Z phoe: but it just happened one day
2020-09-13T20:02:27Z Plazma: nice
2020-09-13T20:02:34Z Plazma: i've got 2 books out there i'm a technical autho on
2020-09-13T20:02:36Z Plazma: author on
2020-09-13T20:02:41Z mseddon: Common lisp's condition system is massively.is
2020-09-13T20:02:41Z Plazma: but i did it for a fiend and to get recognition
2020-09-13T20:02:53Z phantomics: Very cool, this could help with April error handling
2020-09-13T20:03:13Z mseddon: Misunderstood* bleh. Sorry phones are awful.
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2020-09-13T20:03:26Z phoe: phantomics: gasp, I see you are here too
2020-09-13T20:03:50Z phantomics: intermittently
2020-09-13T20:03:54Z mseddon: I look forward to a dedicated treatment!
2020-09-13T20:04:09Z phoe: sure, and if you have any questions about how the CL condition system works then there's plenty of people who should be able to answer, including (hopefully) me
2020-09-13T20:04:28Z Plazma: i was expecting phoe  to pass the buck on that one ( i wrote a book on it but please bug someone else) :P
2020-09-13T20:05:05Z mseddon: He's inadvertently advertised for the job. But so have you :p
2020-09-13T20:05:33Z phoe: well that could also be a good idea because of burnout, but hey, I guess I'm kinda qualified for answering CLCS questions now
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2020-09-13T20:37:34Z borei: oh, Condition system - just made big dive into it, would love to get book about it.
2020-09-13T20:38:16Z borei: available by the end of the month ?
2020-09-13T20:38:30Z phoe: uh, just looked - the current estimated date is october 9
2020-09-13T20:38:37Z phoe: so I might have just lied to you all
2020-09-13T20:38:52Z phoe: octovber 9th is what is on their page at the moment
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2020-09-13T20:40:40Z borei: Oct 9  - that is fine, don't see any problems with it.
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2020-09-13T22:07:07Z dra: Hello!
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2020-09-13T23:24:54Z pfdietz: Yet another book for my Lisp bookshelf.  Still looking for a copy of the Chineual.
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2020-09-13T23:32:02Z jcowan: pfdietz: What book?
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2020-09-13T23:35:07Z pfdietz: Phoe's TCLCS
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2020-09-14T01:27:44Z kreyren: Is `)) )` acceptable code style instead of using `)))` for code review?
2020-09-14T01:28:14Z kreyren: makes the code much more readable imho >.>
2020-09-14T01:28:53Z no-defun-allowed: Usually no; the computer reads the )) and you read the layout.
2020-09-14T01:29:03Z aeth: Old Lisps had a lot of different styles, but these days )))))))))))) has won out because people usually have their tools manage their parentheses for them.
2020-09-14T01:29:18Z kreyren: O.o
2020-09-14T01:29:52Z kreyren: What tools? afaik there is only a tool to make the parentecies a different color and to jump to the closing
2020-09-14T01:30:39Z no-defun-allowed: paredit adds a ) for every ( you type, and has more convenient expression jumping from what I've heard.
2020-09-14T01:31:22Z kreyren: I see O.o
2020-09-14T01:31:25Z no-defun-allowed: parinfer as well, I think, but that does some more work guessing where the parens go from indentation? I somehow lived without using them.
2020-09-14T01:35:35Z jcowan: Interlisp had ], which terminated as many )s as necessary
2020-09-14T01:36:30Z aeth: there should probably be an official channel FAQ for questions like this
2020-09-14T01:37:16Z kreyren: also can i ask for elisp review here?
2020-09-14T01:37:46Z aeth: that's more of a topic for #emacs or ##lisp
2020-09-14T01:37:49Z kreyren: (#emacs doesn't like me for asking too much questions)
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2020-09-14T01:56:27Z jcowan: ##lisp-ers will not complain
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2020-09-14T03:02:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-14T03:03:13Z beach: phoe: Wow, that's way more than I thought.  Good!
2020-09-14T03:04:23Z beach: minion: memo for ebrasca: Did you have any particular contribution in mind for Second Climacs, or did you want me to suggest something for you?
2020-09-14T03:04:24Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell ebrasca when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-09-14T07:23:11Z phoe: beach: also way more than I thought
2020-09-14T07:27:00Z beach: I will definitely order it when it comes out.
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2020-09-14T07:29:24Z Nilby: Can I handle reading another long book on Lisp? For TCLCS I'll make an exception.
2020-09-14T07:30:15Z no-defun-allowed: I'll definitely order it, but I'll only read it if I can handle it.
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2020-09-14T07:31:13Z phoe: I mean, a half of the book is just one guy playing with his phone and another two people trying to hide their relationship from sorta dangerous parents
2020-09-14T07:31:39Z phoe: seriously
2020-09-14T07:32:02Z Nilby: spoiler alert
2020-09-14T07:32:08Z beach: phoe: Er, what?
2020-09-14T07:32:45Z Nilby: But I actually was entertained by it, but it reminded me of my life as teenager.
2020-09-14T07:32:53Z no-defun-allowed: Those are very relatable examples.
2020-09-14T07:35:24Z phoe: beach: yes
2020-09-14T07:35:49Z phoe: basically, I use two simple stories as plot devices that exemplify how to handle special situations in code
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2020-09-14T07:36:00Z beach: Ah, OK.
2020-09-14T07:36:04Z phoe: one of them for handlers, another - for restarts
2020-09-14T07:36:10Z beach: Got it.
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2020-09-14T07:36:22Z phoe: and by "handle" I mean "construct these handling facilities from scratch and then use them"
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2020-09-14T07:38:36Z beach: ebrasca: I think minion has a message for you.
2020-09-14T07:38:51Z ebrasca: minion help
2020-09-14T07:38:51Z minion: ebrasca, memo from beach: Did you have any particular contribution in mind for Second Climacs, or did you want me to suggest something for you?
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2020-09-14T07:39:50Z ebrasca: beach: I like to have some good text editor in Mezzano , I like to see if I can help in this area.
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2020-09-14T07:40:37Z beach: I see.  I am not sure what to suggest for you at this point.
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2020-09-14T07:49:22Z beach: ebrasca: I need to come up with a way to describe rules for indentation in a way that avoids too much code duplication.  And I need to handle all possible errors that Eclector might signal and turn them into ways of displaying the code.
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2020-09-14T07:49:41Z beach: ebrasca: I can't really ask you to do any of that.
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2020-09-14T07:57:02Z ebrasca: beach: ok
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2020-09-14T08:04:54Z moon-child: out of curiosity, has there been any effort put into porting mcclin to mezzano?
2020-09-14T08:05:11Z no-defun-allowed: I think McCLIM runs on Mezzano, so yes.
2020-09-14T08:05:21Z moon-child: oh, really?  I thought it was still x-only
2020-09-14T08:05:34Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cooTl4-9bhg
2020-09-14T08:05:40Z phoe: if Clouseau runs on Mezzano then so must McCLIM
2020-09-14T08:05:56Z moon-child: neat!
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2020-09-14T08:07:42Z beach: Does it use the McCLIM framebuffer backend for that?
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2020-09-14T08:07:58Z phoe: I do not know such details
2020-09-14T08:08:22Z no-defun-allowed: From memory, yes.
2020-09-14T08:08:32Z beach: Great!
2020-09-14T08:08:46Z scymtym: McCLIM on Mezzano uses the "render" extension for rasterizing while the Mezzano backend itself takes care the framebuffer and buffer "flipping"
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2020-09-14T08:09:48Z beach: By the "render" extension, I take it you don't mean XRender, but the McCLIM render extension, yes?
2020-09-14T08:09:52Z scymtym: where render extension = anti-aliased rasterizing of vector primitives in portable common lisp
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2020-09-14T08:10:00Z beach: Right.
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2020-09-14T09:17:40Z flip214: having an hex string with 16 bits per character (likely ucs16), is there a function in babel to get a lisp string?
2020-09-14T09:18:41Z beach: What is a "hex string"?
2020-09-14T09:18:54Z beach: I mean, what Common Lisp type is that?
2020-09-14T09:24:03Z phoe: flip214: you mean you have a ub16 byte vector?
2020-09-14T09:24:17Z phoe: or ub8 byte vector with two bytes per char?
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2020-09-14T09:26:35Z phoe: I assume the latter
2020-09-14T09:26:39Z phoe: see https://github.com/cl-babel/babel/blob/master/src/enc-unicode.lisp#L831-L881
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2020-09-14T09:37:34Z flip214: I have a string that looks like "31000000" to give "1<nul>"
2020-09-14T09:38:08Z flip214: I can easily get bytes via ironclad... and am currently using a loop to SETF characters in a string
2020-09-14T09:38:54Z phoe: oh
2020-09-14T09:39:15Z phoe: then get bytes and feed those bytes to babel
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2020-09-14T10:03:15Z AeroNotix: What's the process for contributing patches to SBCL? Just send a PR on the github repo? Is there a mailing list or something where RFCs must be sent first?
2020-09-14T10:03:38Z phoe: AeroNotix: not on github
2020-09-14T10:03:41Z phoe: that's just a mirror
2020-09-14T10:03:57Z phoe: there's the sbcl-devel mailing list, and the official sourceforge repository
2020-09-14T10:03:58Z AeroNotix: eh ok
2020-09-14T10:04:37Z AeroNotix: I'm not even sure if what I want to do would be allowed, per the standard. But maybe... the package I want to work on is not a standard package.
2020-09-14T10:04:46Z phoe: what do you want to do?
2020-09-14T10:04:56Z AeroNotix: the sb-bsd-sockets package is a bit inefficient and inflexible
2020-09-14T10:07:49Z AeroNotix: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/contrib/sb-bsd-sockets/sockets.lisp#L140 this function in particular
2020-09-14T10:08:26Z phoe: you might want to ask #sbcl for details
2020-09-14T10:08:30Z AeroNotix: sure
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2020-09-14T12:42:04Z pve: Is there a defined maximum argument count for generic functions?
2020-09-14T12:42:27Z Bike: should just be call-arguments-limit
2020-09-14T12:42:42Z pve: oh, ok.. thanks!
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2020-09-14T12:44:16Z AeroNotix: CL-USER> call-arguments-limit
2020-09-14T12:44:18Z AeroNotix: 4611686018427387903
2020-09-14T12:44:24Z AeroNotix: damn I think I could do with a few more
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2020-09-14T12:50:11Z contrapunctus:  /s ?
2020-09-14T12:50:23Z AeroNotix: no I need 4611686018427387904 arguments
2020-09-14T12:51:25Z contrapunctus: lol
2020-09-14T12:51:34Z rogersm: CL-USER> call-arguments-limit
2020-09-14T12:51:34Z rogersm: 65536
2020-09-14T12:51:35Z jackdaniel: put last two on a list
2020-09-14T12:51:49Z AeroNotix: rogersm: which implementation?
2020-09-14T12:52:10Z rogersm: rogersm@iMac10,1:~$ /usr/local/ccl/dx86cl64
2020-09-14T12:52:10Z rogersm: Clozure Common Lisp Version 1.11.5/v1.11.5  (DarwinX8664)
2020-09-14T12:52:10Z rogersm: For more information about CCL, please see http://ccl.clozure.com.
2020-09-14T12:52:12Z rogersm: CCL is free software.  It is distributed under the terms of the Apache
2020-09-14T12:52:14Z rogersm: Licence, Version 2.0.
2020-09-14T12:52:16Z rogersm: ?
2020-09-14T12:52:25Z AeroNotix: oh CCL, then
2020-09-14T12:52:37Z rogersm: is yours sbcl?
2020-09-14T12:52:42Z rogersm: it's impressive
2020-09-14T12:52:45Z AeroNotix: Yes
2020-09-14T12:52:53Z AeroNotix: clisp has a max of 4096
2020-09-14T12:52:55Z rogersm: even excessive
2020-09-14T12:52:56Z rogersm: :D
2020-09-14T12:52:58Z AeroNotix: I wonder if the standard mandates a minimum
2020-09-14T12:53:01Z phoe: yes
2020-09-14T12:53:04Z phoe: clhs call-arguments-limit
2020-09-14T12:53:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm
2020-09-14T12:53:06Z jackdaniel: increasing the limit is not hard, but if there is no demand then why bother?
2020-09-14T12:53:09Z phoe: and it's 50
2020-09-14T12:53:18Z AeroNotix: honestly even 50 seems ridiculous
2020-09-14T12:53:29Z phoe: AeroNotix: unless you APPLY
2020-09-14T12:53:31Z jackdaniel: not really if you account for i.e initialize instance
2020-09-14T12:53:40Z AeroNotix: surely nobody needs more than, like, what, 3 arguments /troll
2020-09-14T12:53:43Z jackdaniel: which may have many many keyword arguments (due to inheritance)
2020-09-14T12:54:14Z jackdaniel: for instance I've hit a bug in ecl (already fixed) a year ago or so, where McCLIM function was called with 67 arguments
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2020-09-14T12:54:36Z jackdaniel: and there was off-by-one error, where one argument was eaten (due to a different representation of the argument list above 64)
2020-09-14T12:54:48Z jackdaniel: so 50 would not cut it ,)
2020-09-14T12:55:16Z phoe: also stuff like (apply #'max (alexandria:iota 1000)) is not 100% portable
2020-09-14T12:55:29Z phoe: REDUCE is better in such contexts
2020-09-14T12:56:45Z jackdaniel: also if you generate functions with macros, you may easily cross any limit
2020-09-14T12:56:58Z jackdaniel: (depending on input)
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2020-09-14T13:06:36Z schweers: Does anyone know how it can happen that deploy can deploy and copy a foreign library to the bin directory, but not be able to load it again when starting the executable?  On starting, I get output informing me that the library shall be loaded, but that loading fails.  The listed alternatives show the actual filename at the first position.
2020-09-14T13:07:04Z phoe: schweers: this can happen in case of transitive foreign dependencies
2020-09-14T13:07:27Z phoe: if CFFI depends on foreign lib A which depends on foreign lib B then deploy is only aware of A and will only copy A.
2020-09-14T13:07:49Z phoe: you need to manually copy B or explicitly tell CFFI that B is also required in the project
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2020-09-14T13:08:00Z phoe: but that is just one reason why a dlopen() call may fail
2020-09-14T13:08:04Z schweers: Could there be such a depencency between libssl and libev?
2020-09-14T13:08:18Z phoe: huh? I guess not
2020-09-14T13:08:23Z phoe: they're independent AFAIK
2020-09-14T13:08:26Z AeroNotix: schweers: why don't you write a quick C script to run dlopen on it directly
2020-09-14T13:08:27Z schweers: I thought so
2020-09-14T13:08:37Z AeroNotix: c script => c program
2020-09-14T13:08:55Z schweers: AeroNotix: Because I’m not sure what that’s supposed to tell me
2020-09-14T13:09:08Z AeroNotix: schweers: it may give you the underlying errno for why the dlopen is failing
2020-09-14T13:09:34Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/18e84ced24ba9775328aa581dea2ac5c lol
2020-09-14T13:09:39Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: this has been running for quite a while
2020-09-14T13:09:50Z schweers: On dumping, deploy informs me that it’s dumping libssl and libev and those two files do indeed end up in the directory as expected.  I copy the complete directory to a new container and booting fails because the file cannot be found
2020-09-14T13:09:59Z AeroNotix: a container?
2020-09-14T13:10:04Z AeroNotix: are you using alpine by any chance?
2020-09-14T13:10:16Z schweers: AeroNotix:  A docker container.  No, I’m using debian:buster-slim
2020-09-14T13:10:26Z schweers: I had problems with alpine and libz, so I ditched it
2020-09-14T13:10:45Z AeroNotix: schweers: ok, well containers can / sometimes do funky things with shared libraries. Either not including them, or in the case of alpine it even uses different/unexpected implementations of libc
2020-09-14T13:11:30Z schweers: Yeah, I was a bit confused by the whole thing to be honest.  But as deploy copies a libssl file over, I wouldn’t have thought this to be a problem
2020-09-14T13:12:00Z AeroNotix: as phoe said, this smells like a transitive dependency issue. Containers often try to be lean with what's included.
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2020-09-14T13:12:33Z schweers: Shouldn’t that be a non-problem, since deploy includes the relevant .so files anyway?
2020-09-14T13:12:55Z AeroNotix: yeah but there may be system dependencies which exist on your local / testing machine which aren't in the container filesysem
2020-09-14T13:13:16Z schweers: Hmm.  I’m adding libssl to the testing container for good measure.
2020-09-14T13:13:31Z schweers: I’ll report on it in a second
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2020-09-14T13:14:50Z schweers: Huh.  Now it seems to work.  Well, that part does anyway.  Caveman/Clack/lack seem to do some pretty weird things at runtime.  But that’s another problem for another time
2020-09-14T13:14:58Z AeroNotix: yay
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2020-09-14T13:15:20Z schweers: Thanks for the tip.  Now I wonder whether I should keep using deploy or not.
2020-09-14T13:15:30Z AeroNotix: not even sure what deploy is.
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2020-09-14T13:15:34Z AeroNotix: can you link to the docs?
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2020-09-14T13:15:57Z schweers: https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy <- this
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2020-09-14T13:18:21Z AeroNotix: Oh ok, well no idea really.
2020-09-14T13:18:49Z schweers: Oh well.  I guess I’ll just install the runtime dependency.  As I control the docker container it doesn’t really hurt anyway.
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2020-09-14T13:23:24Z phoe: schweers: no idea about deploy, the libs that are copied should work after being copied too in the general case.
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2020-09-14T13:23:48Z phoe: still, checking foreign dependencies is left for the programmer since there's no good way to do that from Lisp
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2020-09-14T13:26:41Z schweers: phoe: I guess you’re right.  I’ll just install libssl and everything is fine
2020-09-14T13:27:10Z schweers: Many many thousand thanks to the two of you for helping me.
2020-09-14T13:30:09Z Xach: I hate that using tls/ssl for network connections is really difficult when it comes to ensuring the right libraries are available in the right places.
2020-09-14T13:30:23Z phoe: the beauty of using foreign libraries™
2020-09-14T13:30:36Z phoe: no FFI, no security
2020-09-14T13:30:45Z AeroNotix: arguably if this is running in a container I would suggest to terminate ssl at some ingress layer
2020-09-14T13:30:57Z phoe: that is also an option
2020-09-14T13:31:02Z AeroNotix: depends on the library schweers is using though
2020-09-14T13:31:15Z AeroNotix: some stuff (like the quic lib I am wrapping) NEED to use ssl directly
2020-09-14T13:32:25Z schweers: AeroNotix: now that you put it that way, I’m not sure I actually need ssl.  It seems to be pulled in as a dependency for dexador
2020-09-14T13:32:59Z schweers: Which I only use in the tests
2020-09-14T13:33:43Z schweers: I plan on not doing SSL in lisp, but instead use apache or nginx or something similar as a ... reverse proxy?  I believe that is the correct term.
2020-09-14T13:33:51Z phoe: yes
2020-09-14T13:33:55Z phoe: that is a very good option in practice
2020-09-14T13:33:59Z AeroNotix: worth a look then. We run about 7,000 containers in our deployments altogeteher and only a handful actually speak SSL directly
2020-09-14T13:34:13Z AeroNotix: we terminate SSL at the load-balancers and use TCP to communicate with the containers
2020-09-14T13:34:37Z phoe: I had a LXD/LXC setup where I had a user-facing haproxy instance and a bunch of HTTP services that this haproxy was routing to
2020-09-14T13:34:52Z phoe: only haproxy dealt with SSL/letsencrypt, everything else on the internal network was plain HTTP
2020-09-14T13:34:59Z schweers: I‘m never quite sure whether that’s a good idea or not.  But I’m not a security expert.
2020-09-14T13:35:05Z phoe: this included Lisp images
2020-09-14T13:35:15Z AeroNotix: schweers: it's fine
2020-09-14T13:35:31Z AeroNotix: schweers: the attack surface is you can decrypt traffic on the internal container network
2020-09-14T13:35:46Z AeroNotix: if someone gets access to that, well, you have more trouble than people sniffing packets
2020-09-14T13:35:53Z schweers: I guess
2020-09-14T13:36:49Z AeroNotix: are you using Kubernetes?
2020-09-14T13:37:18Z schweers: Me?  No.  I’m very new to this whole webdevelopment thing.  I guess I got to the party really late ;)
2020-09-14T13:37:54Z phoe: anyway - I suggest using a reverse proxy and setting SSL/HTTPS only on that reverse proxy instead of everywhere else
2020-09-14T13:38:03Z Xach: My pain is more on the client end
2020-09-14T13:38:10Z Xach: Not serving http
2020-09-14T13:38:18Z Xach: (although that is also a pain)
2020-09-14T13:38:25Z schweers: Also for now it’s only going to be used on an internal network, so security is not exactly the highest priority
2020-09-14T13:38:27Z phoe: much less hassle this way, and reverse proxies are pretty much bulletproof and battle-tested nowadays so they are not attack vectors themselves.
2020-09-14T13:38:32Z phoe: Xach: ouch, yes
2020-09-14T13:39:16Z schweers: phoe: as I said, that was my plan.  The http client library I am trying out pulls in cl+ssl, which I don’t actually need.  I only realized this after fixing the issue
2020-09-14T13:39:35Z schweers: Does drakma need ssl?
2020-09-14T13:39:46Z shrdlu68: Using something like Nginx might also protect you from things like HTTP request smuggling, which might be untested in Lisp libraries.
2020-09-14T13:39:48Z schweers: Apparantly it does
2020-09-14T13:39:50Z AeroNotix: schweers: arguably you can frame using a reverse proxy as more secure. The SSL proxy layer is the only place you configure SSL. It can be audited and verified once. Then you don't need to deal with applications themselves talking SSL and needing to put keys on them etc
2020-09-14T13:39:56Z phoe: shka_: there's a compile-time option to tell it not to use ssl
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2020-09-14T13:40:24Z schweers: phoe: I suppose that was actually directed at me?
2020-09-14T13:40:29Z AeroNotix: yeah
2020-09-14T13:40:29Z phoe: uhhh
2020-09-14T13:40:30Z phoe: yes
2020-09-14T13:40:39Z phoe: push :drakma-no-ssl into features and recompile
2020-09-14T13:40:53Z schweers: hmm.  Is there an easy way to do this from asdf?
2020-09-14T13:41:16Z AeroNotix: ugh honestly it should be the reverse in drakma, silly
2020-09-14T13:41:33Z schweers: I’m still not decided on drakma or dexador yet
2020-09-14T13:41:42Z schweers: I suppose drakma is more stable and widely used?
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2020-09-14T13:42:42Z phoe: dexador is effectively unmaintained
2020-09-14T13:42:54Z schweers: Oh.  That makes the decision easy
2020-09-14T13:43:02Z schweers: Thanks for the heads up
2020-09-14T13:43:09Z schweers: How do you know that it’s unmaintained?
2020-09-14T13:43:41Z phoe: https://github.com/fukamachi/dexador/
2020-09-14T13:43:52Z phoe: last activity half a years ago, multiple dangling issues and PRs
2020-09-14T13:43:56Z phoe: s/years/year/
2020-09-14T13:44:00Z phoe: as, sadly, common with fukamachiware
2020-09-14T13:44:05Z AeroNotix: one of the open issues is pretty bad, too.
2020-09-14T13:44:17Z schweers: hmmm
2020-09-14T13:44:20Z AeroNotix: Non-thread safety with features it explicitly calls out as being the killer feature over drakma
2020-09-14T13:44:43Z AeroNotix: Whereas drakma can re-use streams (might've not been the caled when dexador was first wrote, or something)
2020-09-14T13:44:52Z schweers: I’m afraid I plan on using lots of his stuff.  And I have to admit that trying to get caveman to properly run is not as easy as I had anticipated.
2020-09-14T13:44:54Z AeroNotix: `the caled/the case`
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2020-09-14T13:45:00Z phoe: schweers: my condolences
2020-09-14T13:45:40Z schweers: phoe: No problem, I haven’t committed any work yet.  Are there good alternatives?  I just noticed that shinmera has something.  Radiance?
2020-09-14T13:45:56Z phoe: radiance is a web framework, yes
2020-09-14T13:46:11Z phoe: with multiple examples, e.g. plaster that I use all the time
2020-09-14T13:46:15Z schweers: Is there such a thing as a recommended framework?
2020-09-14T13:47:03Z shrdlu68: schweers: Hunchentoot is pretty straight-forward
2020-09-14T13:47:33Z schweers: Well, it’s not exactly a framework, but a webserver, correct?  The question is: is that a bad thing?
2020-09-14T13:47:47Z AeroNotix: only you can say whether that impacts your project really
2020-09-14T13:48:12Z schweers: I’m afraid I don‘t have nearly enough web experience to properly answer these questions
2020-09-14T13:48:21Z AeroNotix: just try one and see, you'll figure it out
2020-09-14T13:48:25Z phoe: ^
2020-09-14T13:50:30Z schweers: Back to my question of building drakma without ssl support: Can I use ASDF to push a feature?
2020-09-14T13:51:07Z phoe: I think so, yes
2020-09-14T13:51:39Z Xach: schweers: two things on that: using *FEATURES* like that to control compilation leads to all kinds of problems. but 2) you can simply put (push :drakma-no-ssl *features*) in the .asd file anywhere. since it's loaded like a lisp program.
2020-09-14T13:51:57Z Xach: that second thing is also not great, but if you are in total control and it won't foul up anyone else, it's fine.
2020-09-14T13:52:03Z schweers: Xach: a fair point.  Thank you
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2020-09-14T13:52:21Z Xach: actually, i take that back - you might have to put it before the defsystem form. i'm not completely sure.
2020-09-14T13:52:31Z schweers: That’s where I would have put it
2020-09-14T13:53:01Z Xach: maybe there should be an unsafentoot system that just has a single source file that pushes the right feature.
2020-09-14T13:53:20Z Xach: but then anyone who loads hunchentoot without unsafentoot first will have bad fasls later due to the wrong features
2020-09-14T13:53:59Z Xach: So, that's the main issue. if you push that to *features* in your own system and compile hunchentoot, the cached fasls are bad in later sessions that don't have that feature. fasls aren't separated out by *features* differences.
2020-09-14T13:54:42Z schweers: Hm.  A good point, thanks for the heads up.  Luckily that won’t be a problem for me
2020-09-14T13:54:52Z Xach: lucky indeed
2020-09-14T13:54:53Z phoe: should be fine if you are deploying an application
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2020-09-14T13:55:05Z phoe: won't be fine if you are creating a library of some sort
2020-09-14T13:55:29Z Xach: phoe: even when deploying an application, it can foul up local development on unrelated hunchentoot things
2020-09-14T13:55:47Z phoe: Xach: that's possible, yes
2020-09-14T13:55:49Z Xach: and it leads to an error that is truly baffling if you aren't at least slightly clued in about the potential issue
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2020-09-14T13:57:06Z jackdaniel: (push :nil *features*)
2020-09-14T13:57:11Z jackdaniel watches the world burn
2020-09-14T13:57:15Z phoe: madlad
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2020-09-14T14:00:56Z AeroNotix: (setf *features* :banana)
2020-09-14T14:02:20Z phoe: sorry, must be a list
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2020-09-14T14:05:46Z phoe: (let (*features*) ...) ; we're in a really primitive lisp here
2020-09-14T14:07:38Z jmercouris: (setf *features* :banana)
2020-09-14T14:07:40Z jmercouris: I like
2020-09-14T14:07:50Z jmercouris: (setf *features* (list :banana))
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2020-09-14T14:12:53Z _death: (defun evaluatemall () (dolist (c '(#\+ #\-)) (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# c (lambda (s c n) (declare (ignore c n)) (read s t nil t) (read s t nil t)))))
2020-09-14T14:13:28Z phoe: _death: forgot about (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) ...)
2020-09-14T14:13:39Z phoe: we don't want to intern new symbols in the current package, do we
2020-09-14T14:14:00Z phoe: even if we're up for letting the world burn, we gotta do that with style
2020-09-14T14:15:07Z _death: I'll leave that to trivial-world-burning
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2020-09-14T14:19:34Z Nilby: I like to do this (setf *features* #9=(cons nil #9#)) every now and then, followed by a nice (delete-package :cl) to keep me on my toes.
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2020-09-14T14:22:28Z Nilby: I feel like "recover from a sabotaged repl" could be a "fun" game.
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2020-09-14T14:24:23Z _death: you can also have a rempl that with some probability munges the result..
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2020-09-14T14:27:31Z _death: (or even a rmepl.. John Koza would be proud ;)
2020-09-14T14:27:39Z phoe: mrepl
2020-09-14T14:27:42Z phoe: oh wait a second...
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2020-09-14T14:30:45Z AeroNotix: I'm sure someone made a project which did exactly this.
2020-09-14T14:31:01Z AeroNotix: Removes a bunch of symbols randomly and your task is to get it working again by redefining some
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2020-09-14T14:34:27Z phoe: there's a bunch of standard symbols that are impossible to express in terms of others
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2020-09-14T14:35:20Z phoe: and the compiler infrastructure is likely to refer to those via EQ so interning new ones won't do anything other than break more stuff.
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2020-09-14T14:36:13Z AeroNotix: yeah I am not sure if this really exists or it was just a discussion in here a while back on how you'd implement a game like that so it's actually winnable
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2020-09-14T17:17:59Z uhrenmacher: How do I compile Lisp-Code?
2020-09-14T17:18:39Z uhrenmacher: ( Common Lisp )
2020-09-14T17:21:54Z ebrasca: uhrenmacher: Normaly when you type you code in the repl it get compiled.
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2020-09-14T17:24:07Z ebrasca: afd_beste1: Do you mean stand alone executable?
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2020-09-14T17:28:19Z uhrenmacher: hmm
2020-09-14T17:28:30Z uhrenmacher: 11
2020-09-14T17:28:47Z uhrenmacher: 1/quit
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2020-09-14T17:29:24Z treflip: Hi
2020-09-14T17:29:54Z treflip: Is there is it possible to specify python verion in py4cl?
2020-09-14T17:31:34Z treflip: Oh, I guess, I should setf *python-command*
2020-09-14T17:33:03Z aeth: by "compile", they probably wanted https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/scripting.html
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2020-09-14T17:37:15Z even4void: treflip: Do you need to have Python version specified programmatically or environment variables may do the job as well?
2020-09-14T17:39:17Z treflip: Well, I hoped to do it without python virtual environments, but if it's the only option, I have no choice :D
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2020-09-14T17:42:46Z even4void: Not sure there's an easy option, by just looking at the source code (https://is.gd/Vm1udX), but I've never use it so maybe someone will come with a better idea.
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2020-09-14T17:44:42Z treflip: Ok, thanks
2020-09-14T17:46:12Z even4void: Ah: https://github.com/bendudson/py4cl/issues/15
2020-09-14T17:46:50Z even4void: Apprently, you were right with setting the *python-command*.
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2020-09-14T17:49:35Z treflip: Oh, this solves my problem completely, thanks
2020-09-14T17:51:16Z even4void: yw
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2020-09-14T22:40:21Z markasoftware: metatilities:flatten just segfaulted on me
2020-09-14T22:40:22Z markasoftware: wat
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2020-09-14T23:15:33Z Lycurgus: believe it or don't there was a time when that was fairly common
2020-09-14T23:20:15Z _death: victim of safety 0.. best submit a patch
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2020-09-14T23:34:45Z mfiano: On SBCL, safety doesn't even have to be zero to introduce segfaults when working with structs at least. Can produce very strange memory issues just if safety is lower than speed
2020-09-14T23:39:42Z aeth: I think that's only if you redefine structs, but if you have a counterexample...
2020-09-14T23:40:30Z _death: I see you are the cl-sdl2 maintainer.. had to patch it a bit today.. if the main thread is aborted, join-thread may signal an error, leaving things in a bad state
2020-09-14T23:40:43Z mfiano: No, that's always undefined behavior. I'm talking about memory safety issues.
2020-09-14T23:42:01Z _death: currently I catch the error and set the channel variable to nil, also letting the main thread variable become nil.. seems to behave better
2020-09-14T23:42:14Z mfiano: _death: The threading in cl-sdl2 is a joke. I only maintain it because the maintainer abruptly left Lisp and no one wanted to take over. If I had my way, I'd rewrite that whole project without autowrap and expose an API for working with it without all the macros that try to magically handle the main thread.
2020-09-14T23:43:55Z _death: well, autowrap makes things easy.. for example cl-sdl2-gfx didn't include all sdl2 gfx headers.. one more line and it now includes the header I need as well
2020-09-14T23:45:14Z mfiano: I think it was you that I mentioned cl-sdl2-ttf also needing a patch to not double-free now that cl-sdl2 has no weak refs.
2020-09-14T23:45:45Z _death: ah.. I don't use that
2020-09-14T23:46:20Z mfiano: Neither do I. Currently it's unusable as I receive a lot of reports from users that use it about memory corruption relating to it being unmaintained since the changes to cl-sdl2 a couple years ago.
2020-09-14T23:48:20Z _death: currently I mostly use it for visualizing stuff, logo environment, etc.. so I only need one font which I took from lispbuilder-sdl.. recently had to translate stuff from lispbuilder-sdl (sdl 1.2) to cl-sdl2 because the two can't live side by side in the same process (had a bit of fun figuring that out ;)
2020-09-14T23:49:01Z mfiano: Ha, yeah
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2020-09-14T23:50:54Z mfiano: I'm always doing graphics myself, using cl-sdl2 too, but against the exposed API. I don't use any of the macros which set up the main thread for you, because I actually run SLIME in my game's event loop.
2020-09-14T23:51:50Z phantomics: Have a question if anyone knows... what's the best way to daemonize a CL process on Linux? Using systemctl to daemonize has resulted in many problems, cl-daemonize and daemon packages don't seem to work too well or maybe it's just me - what's the most favored approach right now?
2020-09-14T23:51:54Z _death: I see.. I have a simple-graphics interface that's very easy to use
2020-09-14T23:51:56Z mfiano: That way I don't have to wrap REPL calls in some macro to make sure that it is ran on the SDL/GL context, and similarly across dynamic special bindings
2020-09-14T23:52:13Z mfiano: The REPL thread _is_ the main thread for me. I like it quite a lot.
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2020-09-14T23:52:47Z _death: here's an old version https://gist.github.com/death/89156262b6b3e25abc3b52da18c2ba24
2020-09-14T23:53:19Z _death: since then it grew to about twice the size heh
2020-09-14T23:54:10Z mfiano: Cool. I'll have a read in a few, even though I have my own graphics/math framework I've been developing for about a decade :)
2020-09-14T23:54:47Z mfiano: Currently experimenting with some procedural mesh/material/lighting code in Lisp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgGJ2awmwEA
2020-09-14T23:55:32Z _death: ok updated with the latest
2020-09-14T23:56:25Z _death: nice
2020-09-14T23:57:03Z phantomics: _death: this uses an SDL Surface for the bitmap right? What are you using the graphics for?
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2020-09-14T23:59:15Z mfiano: _death: Be careful using cl-sdl2 though. There are a couple areas that are unsafe still due to removal of finalizers a few years ago. See the issues, and any patches for them would be welcome. I just don't have enough time or desire to subject myself to that codebase much.
2020-09-15T00:00:21Z mfiano: I only bring it up because it particularly arises for some of the 2D functions that you may be using. It just hasn't been a priority for me because my uses of SDL2 is pretty unorthodox, and only for events and a GL context, no draw calls.
2020-09-15T00:00:22Z _death: phantomics: if you're talking about the latest version, it only uses a surface if "overlays" are used.. like I said, I use it for visualizing stuff mostly.. like simulated annealing or linear regression (using stochastic gradient descent), or collision detection algorithms, or abelian sandpiles, or... you get it
2020-09-15T00:01:10Z _death: phantomics: the code has a bunch of pixels-* demos
2020-09-15T00:01:25Z _death: phantomics: though it needs a patched cl-sdl2-gfx to run :)
2020-09-15T00:01:28Z _death: I'll add the patch
2020-09-15T00:01:40Z phantomics: _death: those pixels-* demos are the ones that use surface?
2020-09-15T00:02:17Z _death: phantomics: no.. I think I use overlays only in my logo stuff
2020-09-15T00:02:21Z mfiano: _death: See issue #127 to see if this relates to you
2020-09-15T00:02:39Z mfiano: I am not sure, but if anyone can patch that I'd be very appreciative
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2020-09-15T00:03:19Z mfiano: Should be a fairly easy task for anyone looking to contribute to a widely used library.
2020-09-15T00:04:11Z _death: well, I updated with the 1-line "patch".. you'll need to re-generate the autowrap spec files.. the actual patch is 5M so..
2020-09-15T00:04:20Z phantomics: _death: looks like anything that uses (frame-loop) uses the surface since (frame-loop) expands to (call-with-frame-function)
2020-09-15T00:06:03Z _death: phantomics: well, it uses the default renderer.. I took it you meant a software surface.. which only the overlays use
2020-09-15T00:07:07Z _death: mfiano: ah, I don't use those operators
2020-09-15T00:07:55Z phantomics: _death: I see, I need to get deeper into cl-sdl to understand, I'm looking for the quickest way to push a bitmap to a window
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2020-09-15T00:08:44Z mfiano: If anyone is interested in the code for how to "run your repl in your own event loop", here is the code. Just call setup-repl once, and update-repl some human-acceptable period (every few iterations) of your loop. It is complicated-looking because it supports SLIME, Sly, or neither, and so has to generate the functions with #'compile
2020-09-15T00:08:49Z mfiano: https://github.com/mfiano/pyx/blob/master/src/base/live-support.lisp#L7-L39
2020-09-15T00:10:31Z _death: phantomics: I see.. for that you're better off using sdl2 as is.. my wrapper is good for drawing simple shapes
2020-09-15T00:11:57Z contrapunctus: Yikes. The repositories of cl-advice and temperance have vanished 😶
2020-09-15T00:12:43Z contrapunctus: (They are recommended on awesome-cl)
2020-09-15T00:13:54Z phantomics: Here's one: https://github.com/sjl/temperance
2020-09-15T00:14:03Z phantomics: Just moved to GH
2020-09-15T00:15:20Z contrapunctus: phantomics: ah, thanks!
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2020-09-15T00:21:20Z _death: oh, I also use simple-graphics for stupid games like minesweeper or breakout
2020-09-15T00:23:40Z mfiano: Seems sort of similar to sketch at first glance.
2020-09-15T00:23:51Z mfiano: Except that is broken too because it uses cl-sdl2-ttf :)
2020-09-15T00:25:10Z _death: yeah I used sketch too for a while
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2020-09-15T00:28:46Z _death: I also wrote opencv bindings, which include highgui which makes certain kinds of visualizations easy.. but not so good with input
2020-09-15T00:33:06Z mfiano: I haven't ever used OpenCV, but that's just because I don't like stepping outside of my nice little Lisp sandbox. I only use FFI where I must, which strictly means OS I/O (kb/mouse/gamepad/display/gpu (and eventually audio when I need it))
2020-09-15T00:33:29Z mfiano: Luckily all of that is encompassed in cl-sdl2 and cl-opengl
2020-09-15T00:41:29Z mfiano: If I needed such a thing, I'd just convolve the image myself on the Lisp side, or some DSL to have the GPU do the heavy lifting in a compute shader. Identifying features and tracking motion is not all that difficult
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2020-09-15T00:44:48Z Lycurgus: convolve the image
2020-09-15T00:44:52Z _death: sure, if it suits your needs.. but opencv is a huge library with all kinds of crazy code that hundreds of people worked on for many years..
2020-09-15T00:47:19Z _death: my bindings are not complete, I mostly implemented stuff as I needed it.. though I also ported all the imgproc tutorials to lisp, for example..
2020-09-15T00:48:08Z mfiano: I am not disagreeing with anyone's choice to use it or other foreign libraries. I just prefer to write portable, conforming CL, as to maximize safety and minimize bitrot.
2020-09-15T00:48:34Z _death: sure, I would prefer that as well :)
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2020-09-15T00:50:48Z _death: also had to write some C++ for those bindings.. and for my imgui bindings too.. but once you have these tools available to Lisp, it's pretty cool
2020-09-15T00:51:14Z mfiano: I guess another reason I like CL, is libraries are small and easy to extend or outright rewrite, due to the fact that everyone rewrites their own to begin with :) Enterprise software is a pain to dig through. I've had to study my share of Unreal Engine's source to implement or to better understand some things in my game engine, and it was not fun.
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2020-09-15T00:53:42Z sillydude: Hello?
2020-09-15T00:54:18Z White_Flame: mfiano: yeah, I've rewritten stuff that's existed in alexandria and other very common libs to taste, and it's nice having a reference & being able to substitute out easily
2020-09-15T00:54:22Z White_Flame: sillydude: it works
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2020-09-15T00:55:24Z mfiano: Some things in alexandria definitely need to be rewritten. IIRC not too long ago I noticed some n^2 operations that could have been linear
2020-09-15T00:56:04Z _death: when the library is small, a complete port to lisp is great.. like squirl (not long ago I wrote a bunch of patches.. but doesn't seem to be actively maintained by anyone)
2020-09-15T00:57:30Z sillydude: Hey guys, would you mind if I ask a question? (Excuse my ignorance as I am VERY new with CL)
2020-09-15T00:57:34Z White_Flame: I wrote an erlang node library for CL and it really wasn't big either
2020-09-15T00:57:54Z White_Flame: sillydude: asking to ask isn't very useful
2020-09-15T00:57:56Z mfiano: sillydude: #clschool may better suite you, but shoot
2020-09-15T00:58:01Z mfiano: suit*
2020-09-15T00:58:10Z _death: mfiano: right.. compare (alexandria:shuffle (loop repeat 100000 collect (random 10))) to (coerce (alexandria:shuffle (coerce (loop repeat 100000 collect (random 10)) 'vector)) 'list) .. it's like they implemented the list variant for didactic purposes and not practical purposes..
2020-09-15T00:58:12Z White_Flame: but to answer your implied question, yeah #clschool will absorb anything :)
2020-09-15T00:59:05Z mfiano: _death: Yeah, I think shuffle was one of the handful I noticed that could have been improved. I think mappend is another, and there were quite a few actually.
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2020-09-15T01:04:23Z sillydude: Well I have a little problem. I had started learning C earlier this year. I got a textbook, worked my way through it without a whole lot of issue and made some cool stuff. Now I wanted to try and do the same with CL so I started reading "Practical Common Lisp", but I just finished the 8th chapter and I hate to admit it but I'm still having a really
2020-09-15T01:04:23Z sillydude: hard time being able to understand most fundamental elements of the language. I can't tell whether Lisp is just more difficult to learn or whether I didn't pick the best book for a beginner. So in your opinion should I try out a different book and if so what would you recommend.
2020-09-15T01:04:52Z sillydude: Also, I have never talked in a Lisp chat nor ever used irc
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2020-09-15T01:05:08Z mfiano: It is more difficult to learn due to it being on a completely different planet than C and other Algol derivatives
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2020-09-15T01:05:43Z mfiano: But if it's your first language, it's actually easier in my opinion, once you learn the basics, which that book should cover. Just ensure you read it linearly, and perform all of the practicals.
2020-09-15T01:05:46Z White_Flame: I think the hardest things IMO to understand are symbols and their packages, and yeah it can take a while
2020-09-15T01:05:49Z _death: mfiano: with regards to that live support code, why not use feature expressions like #+swank ?
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2020-09-15T01:06:07Z Bike: you could try gentle introduction to symbolic computation
2020-09-15T01:06:13Z sillydude: Before C I had no prior programming experience
2020-09-15T01:06:19Z Bike: might depend on what aspects you're stuck on, though
2020-09-15T01:06:23Z White_Flame: simply because symbols sort of exist in other langauges, but only at compile time, so they go all weird in human recognition to be first class at runtime
2020-09-15T01:06:27Z ldbeth: good morning
2020-09-15T01:06:28Z Bike: (you could also just ask us or clschool about those aspects)
2020-09-15T01:06:39Z Bike: (sometimes interactivity is good for learning)
2020-09-15T01:07:18Z White_Flame: sillydude: any specific thing that's hard for you right now in your reading?
2020-09-15T01:07:28Z mfiano: _death: There was a good reason, and I'm having a bit of trouble remembering exactly why.
2020-09-15T01:07:39Z mfiano: I'll let you know when I think of it
2020-09-15T01:08:22Z ldbeth: I'd say programming itself is never easy
2020-09-15T01:08:48Z sillydude: It is kind of weird, there is nothing specific. Most of the code is incredibly hard to wrap my brain around and I hardly understand a word he is saying when he explains it
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2020-09-15T01:09:11Z Bike: you might be overthinking it
2020-09-15T01:09:12Z sillydude: It's just that I never had this problem learning C (my first experience programming)
2020-09-15T01:09:22Z White_Flame: ldbeth: it's a creative pursuit, so getting used to conjuring something from nothing is daunting, but the craft is practiced & becomes at least more familiar
2020-09-15T01:09:31Z Bike: i mean the code is, what, like, a database for mp3s or something? it's not exactly a mathematics dissertation
2020-09-15T01:09:50Z Bike: i would try gentle if i was you, tho
2020-09-15T01:10:06Z Bike: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf also free online, because the future is nice sometimes
2020-09-15T01:10:08Z sillydude: Is it significantly gentler?
2020-09-15T01:10:10Z _death: sillydude: I wouldn't recommend PCL to someone new to programming.. Gentle as mentioned by Bike, or ANSI Common Lisp (the first chapter is available at https://sep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/paulgraham/acl1.txt )
2020-09-15T01:10:27Z Bike: it's pretty much intended for someone who's never programmed before
2020-09-15T01:10:30Z aeth: mfiano: re enterprise software... https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition
2020-09-15T01:10:35Z aeth: someone should read that, understand that, and port it to CL!
2020-09-15T01:10:35Z mfiano: _death: It _might_ have been because of cached FASLs. I know a couple people requested a while ago that you couldn't switch out the backend without clearing them, so that might have en at least part of the reason.
2020-09-15T01:10:50Z mfiano: have been*
2020-09-15T01:11:24Z _death: mfiano: I see
2020-09-15T01:11:39Z Bike: "For you, let me stress the word _gentle_ in the title. I assume no prior mathematical background beyond arithmetic."
2020-09-15T01:11:46Z sillydude: Sorry I came here asking kind of stupid questions. I just felt desperate because conceptually Lisp seems really cool, but it is very discouraging trying to learn
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2020-09-15T01:12:07Z Bike: asking questions is good. you don't need to apologize
2020-09-15T01:12:08Z mfiano: Yes, actually. You want the backend to differ during development and on a deployed binary on some non-Lisp users machine.
2020-09-15T01:12:16Z _death: (oh, and the second chapter as well https://sep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/paulgraham/acl2.txt )
2020-09-15T01:12:16Z mfiano: Hence runtime compilation
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2020-09-15T01:13:52Z mfiano: But also just testing deployed binary with vanilla implementation REPL on same PC as development IDE, or even switching between SLIME and Sly
2020-09-15T01:13:58Z Bike: "there are no stupid questions" is a cliché, but "could i get some more help" is not a stupid question
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2020-09-15T01:14:21Z _death: mfiano: you could still avoid the compilation.. since it's mostly just special binding/calling a function..
2020-09-15T01:14:37Z mfiano: Gamedev is time consuming, and finding/deleting specific FASLs, or saying screw it and nukng them all, and waiting for a huge transitive dependency chain to compile every couple minutes is annoying
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2020-09-15T01:15:27Z mfiano: We don't use any special variables in our game engine, if that is what you are implying. That is one hard rule we must follow
2020-09-15T01:17:05Z _death: mfiano: right, I mean the when-let with *emacs-connection* there.. you can use symbol-value and funcall
2020-09-15T01:19:01Z mfiano: That is true. I admit the SLIME part of it hasn't got much love, as I don't use it. Using code provided by someone else for that.
2020-09-15T01:19:02Z sillydude: @Bike Well I'm not having an issue with math. To me the book just feels *fast*. I had used Programming C: A Modern Approach and the pace felt great. It would introduce a small concept, quiz you and give you projects to do. Then introduce a new concept that and give you more examples and projects that just really engrained how it works in my head.
2020-09-15T01:19:02Z sillydude: With PCL he moves onto new concepts very quickly and in code examples, uses functions or things like ",@" that he has never introduced before as if I am supposed to have prior knowledge of them.
2020-09-15T01:19:24Z _death: mfiano: uiop even has a symbol-call operator that may be useful there
2020-09-15T01:19:34Z mfiano: I'll think how to make that better sometime, but more imptant matters in the meantime :)
2020-09-15T01:20:25Z sillydude: The only time I felt like I really understood was sections like Chapter 7 where he has individual sections just for things like do, do-list, cond, e.t.c.
2020-09-15T01:20:29Z ldbeth: sillydude: I see. Maybe you're looking for a book like land of lisp
2020-09-15T01:21:17Z White_Flame: land of lisp does use some things with a "don't worry about this part, I'll explain later" tone as well
2020-09-15T01:21:40Z Bike: sillydude: yeah, try gentle. has tons of examples and stuff.
2020-09-15T01:21:44Z mfiano: Might want to stay clear of the other LOL (Let Over Lambda) :)
2020-09-15T01:22:01Z Bike: plus it was actually used for classes and stuff
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2020-09-15T01:22:07Z _death: gentle and the PG book have exercises
2020-09-15T01:22:08Z ldbeth: indeed, but it is not easy for a book to present ideas in parallel
2020-09-15T01:22:34Z White_Flame: sillydude: also, try to code little stuff yourself.  Since lisp is interactive, you can directly execute any little form to try to get a feel for how it works and see the result immediately without any edit/compile/run cycle
2020-09-15T01:22:36Z Bike: and don't be afraid to ask us questions if you still have questions, cos a book can only teach so much
2020-09-15T01:22:47Z mfiano: Someone new to Lisp recently mentioned to me they got more from Successful Lisp than PCL, so that is another option maybe, but I haven't read it personally.
2020-09-15T01:23:03Z White_Flame: mfiano: new to lisp, or new to programming entirely?
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2020-09-15T01:23:13Z mfiano: New to Lisp, coming from D
2020-09-15T01:23:28Z xristos: PAIP has a great intro to Lisp too
2020-09-15T01:23:35Z ldbeth: D: the succesor of C, I suppose
2020-09-15T01:23:48Z mfiano: More like C++, but yeah
2020-09-15T01:25:19Z no-defun-allowed: C++++?
2020-09-15T01:25:30Z White_Flame: no, that's intel's programming language
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2020-09-15T01:25:37Z no-defun-allowed: If you arrange the plusses in a 2x2 square you get C♯
2020-09-15T01:25:40Z Bike: c is called that because it's next after b in "BCPL", so logically it should be P
2020-09-15T01:26:16Z mfiano: A major problem with onboarding is the required tooling. Yes, we have things like Portacle, but tooling is pretty absent from most of these books. Once you know about Portacle, you still (probably) have to learn how to use something other than Notepad++ or vscode to get anything out of such an interactive language...
2020-09-15T01:26:47Z sillydude: Well thanks guys I guess I will look into whether I want to try Gentle or Land of Lisp. White_Flame I have tried that, but that gets boring really quickly considering I don't know enough of the standard functions/macros to do much more than loop some text printing or some simple math like Celsius to Fahrenheit conversion
2020-09-15T01:27:03Z White_Flame: ah, well that's a great start already :)
2020-09-15T01:27:52Z White_Flame: btw, do you have any specific project interest in learning programming?  or just learning?
2020-09-15T01:29:05Z _death: sillydude: ANSI Common Lisp also contains a "reference" appendix, which is like a cheatsheet for someone new to Lisp.. the real reference document is the Common Lisp HyperSpec however.. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm
2020-09-15T01:29:16Z sillydude: I guess just learning, originally atleast. I just really enjoy the feeling of getting in the zone working on a somewhat useful project
2020-09-15T01:29:23Z mfiano: sillydude: For me it took like a year or two to fully grok macros. Even though Lisp macros are extremely powerful and define the language, you can focus on other aspects of the language as to not get overwhelmed.
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2020-09-15T01:30:06Z sillydude: mfiano I meant standard macros. I wasn't sure how to describe them
2020-09-15T01:30:14Z sillydude: but macros like do-list and such
2020-09-15T01:30:34Z sillydude: because they aren't functions (as far as I know)
2020-09-15T01:30:39Z mfiano: I meant writing them, which is probably where you saw that ",@"
2020-09-15T01:30:46Z Bike: yeah, "standard macros" is a fine description for those
2020-09-15T01:30:48Z mfiano: PCL is pretty macro heavy
2020-09-15T01:30:54Z sillydude: oh ok
2020-09-15T01:31:35Z ldbeth: sillydude: may i ask how you got to fimiliar the standard library of C
2020-09-15T01:32:07Z sillydude: Just from the textbook I was using
2020-09-15T01:32:11Z sillydude: not any special section
2020-09-15T01:32:16Z sillydude: just reading linearly
2020-09-15T01:32:49Z sillydude: I actually stopped reading right before the "Standard Library" section lol
2020-09-15T01:33:14Z ldbeth: I suppose they all follow certain naming conventions?
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2020-09-15T01:33:32Z Bike: well, in lisp dotimes is a part of the standard library, whereas in c for is syntax
2020-09-15T01:33:40Z Bike: gets tricky
2020-09-15T01:34:10Z sillydude: I guess so
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2020-09-15T01:34:59Z White_Flame: the difference is, in C you can't define your own "for" loop syntax (well, you could hack the preprocessor horribly), but in Lisp, defining someting like dolist in your own code is easily possible
2020-09-15T01:35:17Z White_Flame: that's definitely something for later, but shows the power that awaits you
2020-09-15T01:35:24Z sillydude: Also, I guess I have a different question. How do YOU (specifically) package your programs for distribution? .lisp files, .fasl's, ASFD stuff, images/cores?
2020-09-15T01:35:41Z White_Flame: it depends what you mean by "distribution"
2020-09-15T01:35:54Z mfiano: sillydude: All macros are functions, just evaluated differently (at a different time)
2020-09-15T01:35:58Z White_Flame: libraries, applications, etc are often just open source .lisp/.asd files
2020-09-15T01:36:08Z sillydude: lets say you email me "hey dude heres my lisp program. Run it!"
2020-09-15T01:36:11Z White_Flame: for closed source, executable images
2020-09-15T01:36:45Z sillydude: and can you run those from the command line like ./my-program.EXTENSION?
2020-09-15T01:36:47Z White_Flame: "here's a .zip file of .lisp", or "here's a link to my github"
2020-09-15T01:36:54Z White_Flame: pretty small things can fit in a single .lisp file
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2020-09-15T01:37:09Z _death: sillydude: hey dude, here's my lisp program... run it: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/678
2020-09-15T01:37:10Z White_Flame: (although some large bootstrap stuff behind the scenes crams a lot into 1 file)
2020-09-15T01:37:32Z mfiano: sillydude: Typically you publish your code for others to compile (by loading it into their image). Binary compilation is not a part of the standard, and is done differently on each Lisp implementation.
2020-09-15T01:37:34Z White_Flame: but the same is true in C.  Most programs aren't just one standalone .c file
2020-09-15T01:38:31Z White_Flame: _death: heh, clever
2020-09-15T01:38:36Z sillydude: Ok so pretty much all the time, for someone to run someones program they have to open a lisp image and (load) the files in, or use some kind of script or something else that accomplishes this?
2020-09-15T01:38:50Z White_Flame: you normally always have a lisp image running
2020-09-15T01:38:58Z sillydude: lol ok that makes sense
2020-09-15T01:38:58Z White_Flame: it's both your development and execution environment
2020-09-15T01:39:21Z White_Flame: and stuff you load in from 3rd parties are usually namespaced in packages so they don't interfere
2020-09-15T01:39:28Z sillydude: but lets say I have on image open with my own stuff and want to run someone else, would I not make a new image to sort of "reset" it first?
2020-09-15T01:39:32Z White_Flame: (except for one-liners/single functions like the above link)
2020-09-15T01:39:35Z sillydude: OOOh
2020-09-15T01:39:41Z sillydude: ok thank you very much
2020-09-15T01:39:58Z sillydude: Lol I guess I should have gone to #clschool
2020-09-15T01:40:04Z White_Flame: oh right, C doesn't have any namespacing, only C++?
2020-09-15T01:40:14Z Bike: yeah.
2020-09-15T01:40:59Z mfiano: sillydude: "packages" in other languages are "systems" in CL, and you would use the ASDF library to define such a system, and publish that. "package" in the CL sense is completely different and only pertains to namespacing symbols at the parser level, so don't let that confuse you.
2020-09-15T01:41:39Z sillydude: And using this ASDF is more or less standard?
2020-09-15T01:41:45Z ldbeth: ASDF is anology to `make' util
2020-09-15T01:41:54Z sillydude: hmm
2020-09-15T01:41:56Z mfiano: To be technical, a "system" is not part of CL either, and provided through a separate library (ASDF)
2020-09-15T01:42:13Z mfiano: It is defacto standard, but not part of ANSI
2020-09-15T01:42:20Z sillydude: I see
2020-09-15T01:42:46Z ldbeth: just like make it resolves dependency between lisp files and controls the complaition of them
2020-09-15T01:43:08Z xristos: you don't have to use ASDF, if all you have is a single .lisp file you don't need it, also you can distribute native executables (SBCL and CCL among others can produce them)
2020-09-15T01:43:41Z xristos: if you're just starting out with CL, worrying about ASDF, systems and packages is overkill
2020-09-15T01:43:45Z sillydude: So, would it be fair to say that lisp programs are usually only run by Lisp people?
2020-09-15T01:44:08Z sillydude: Because those are the ones to already have their Lisp image running?
2020-09-15T01:44:15Z White_Flame: if a Lisp program is hosted as a server, or distributed as an executable binary, it's no problem.
2020-09-15T01:44:18Z ldbeth: java programs are usually only run by JVM :P
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2020-09-15T01:44:31Z xristos: sillydude: native executables look like any other native executable
2020-09-15T01:44:46Z xristos: your users need not know that they're implemented in Common Lisp
2020-09-15T01:44:58Z sillydude: really?
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2020-09-15T01:45:19Z ldbeth: be honest, just different in size
2020-09-15T01:45:32Z sillydude: but there is no program.lisp file that some guys would click on from within his file manager right?
2020-09-15T01:45:50Z sillydude: when you say "executable" I guess that's the only way I think of it
2020-09-15T01:45:52Z Bike: most implementations have some kind of facility to "dump" executable files
2020-09-15T01:45:52Z _death: sillydude: there would be a program.exe file
2020-09-15T01:46:05Z Bike: these executable files look like any other program you would run
2020-09-15T01:46:13Z xristos: when i say executable i mean a native executable for your target platform, PE exe on windows, ELF on Linux and so on
2020-09-15T01:46:31Z sillydude: _death what would be the unix-like analogue to that?
2020-09-15T01:46:42Z White_Flame: chmod a+x program
2020-09-15T01:46:48Z sillydude: no way...
2020-09-15T01:46:54Z _death: sillydude: executables on unix usually don't have a file extension.. so program
2020-09-15T01:47:22Z White_Flame: C isn't the only language that generates executables
2020-09-15T01:47:40Z White_Flame: it's just a bunch of bytes and a machine code entry point, could be generated by anything
2020-09-15T01:48:05Z mfiano: sillydude: On some implementations, you can just dump your whole iamge to disk and prepend an executable header to it so that it runs like any other executable. It just contains more than your code...the state of your entire image (unless care was taken by you or the implementation to unload other stuff). For this reason, a distributed program has full access to the parser and compiler, and your code
2020-09-15T01:48:07Z mfiano: can make use of this for runtime tricks.
2020-09-15T01:48:39Z White_Flame: right, your executable basically just resumes your image, and launches some toplevel function (analogous to C's main())
2020-09-15T01:48:50Z White_Flame: but you can tell it which function to call at executable startup
2020-09-15T01:48:53Z _death: sillydude: there are also Lisp implementations that generate C code, which in turn can be compiled to an executable..
2020-09-15T01:49:25Z aeth: Some languages implicitly look for main() or something like it. Others need you to say what main() is. CL is the latter, although (main) is still a good name for it.
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2020-09-15T01:49:43Z sillydude: Im just confused as to how I create this executable, I just chmod +x'ed my .lisp and .fasl; the former gives and error, the latter does nothing.
2020-09-15T01:49:55Z aeth: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/scripting.html
2020-09-15T01:50:00Z mfiano: sillydude: That depends on your Lisp implementation
2020-09-15T01:50:07Z sillydude: oooh
2020-09-15T01:50:08Z mfiano: sillydude: Each ahs their own API and set of functions for dumping
2020-09-15T01:50:29Z _death: sillydude: what implementation do you use?
2020-09-15T01:50:35Z sillydude: SBCL
2020-09-15T01:50:39Z _death: sillydude: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Saving-a-Core-Image
2020-09-15T01:50:52Z aeth: If you chmod +x your .lisp it can work, but you'd need to #!/usr/bin/sbcl or something along those lines. It depends on the implementation if that's supported as the first line. Unfortunately, it's not very robust if you're distributing it because your user's SBCL might not be at /usr/bin/sbcl if they even have it installed
2020-09-15T01:51:13Z sillydude: Ok, but if I was to give that executable to someone, they would have to have SBCL to properly execute it, correct?
2020-09-15T01:51:24Z aeth: no
2020-09-15T01:51:29Z _death: sillydude: the executable includes the whole of sbcl
2020-09-15T01:51:35Z sillydude: wtf
2020-09-15T01:51:41Z sillydude: lol thats so cool
2020-09-15T01:51:58Z sillydude: Lisp is really cool TBH
2020-09-15T01:52:37Z aeth: the executable is self-contained and bundles the whole runtime; launching a .lisp either directly (with e.g. chmod +x and #!/usr/bin/sbcl as the first line) or indirectly (e.g. a one-liner shell script that does sbcl --script foo.lisp if SBCL) requires it to be installed already
2020-09-15T01:52:55Z aeth: unfortunately, none of this is really portable (although some libraries exist to permit either style) which is why my examples are in SBCL
2020-09-15T01:53:17Z _death: sillydude: you can try it.. start sbcl and do (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "foo" :executable t :toplevel (lambda () (print 'hi) (sb-ext:exit)))
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2020-09-15T01:53:51Z aeth: and no matter what you need to provide an entry point, probably (main), unless you do the --script route and have the entry file call (main) directly
2020-09-15T01:53:58Z ldbeth: if you're concered with not exposing the programming interface to the user some commercial implementations can strip out the unused part of runtime, but this is beyond the scope of disccussion.
2020-09-15T01:54:18Z xristos: sillydude: https://pastebin.com/raw/abRtLvYD
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2020-09-15T01:56:34Z sillydude: so then with this core image, I can sit in my home directory and run something like $ myprogram -a, aslong as the image exists in $PATH?
2020-09-15T01:56:51Z mfiano: Sure
2020-09-15T01:56:58Z sillydude: hm
2020-09-15T01:57:42Z _death: instead of (print 'hi) try (print sb-ext:*posix-argv*)
2020-09-15T01:59:04Z mfiano: You can also just run several applications inside your development environment, like a few web sites, games, etc, and develop them as they are live, since Lisp is an interactive language that can be compiled iteratively one form at a time.
2020-09-15T01:59:18Z mfiano: No executable dumping needed
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2020-09-15T02:01:15Z sillydude: You guys have been a big help, thank you very much
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2020-09-15T02:04:16Z sillydude: and very welcoming
2020-09-15T02:06:49Z ldbeth: :D
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2020-09-15T02:09:05Z mfiano: _death: What does the sb-ext:exit actually do? Doesn't the control automatically exit when your toplevel function terminates?
2020-09-15T02:09:39Z _death: mfiano: no, it goes to the repl
2020-09-15T02:09:45Z mfiano: Not for me
2020-09-15T02:11:01Z mfiano: "This function returning is equivalent to (sb-ext:exit :code 0) being called."
2020-09-15T02:11:11Z _death: hmmm.. right.. I misremembered.  still, it's good to have exit because usually you want to return an exit status
2020-09-15T02:12:04Z mfiano: I suppose most applications aside a simple CLI tool would have an event loop anyway.
2020-09-15T02:14:25Z mfiano: While we're on the topic of s-l-a-d, the manual says this for purify: "If true (the default on cheneygc)...". How do I know which GC is being used, and can I control that, etc?
2020-09-15T02:15:03Z no-defun-allowed: You most likely are using gencgc on x86_64 and ARM64.
2020-09-15T02:15:19Z _death: you need to compile sbcl to change a gc
2020-09-15T02:16:13Z no-defun-allowed: cheneygc isn't generational, which would generally make it "slower", so you probably wouldn't want to control it anyway.
2020-09-15T02:16:14Z _death: they push different features
2020-09-15T02:16:25Z mfiano: Yeah I figured it was gencgc, infact I didn't know others existed when I read that a while ago.
2020-09-15T02:16:38Z mfiano: Which is what prompted the question for "how to switch"
2020-09-15T02:16:40Z mfiano: Thanks
2020-09-15T02:17:56Z no-defun-allowed: gencgc mostly does Cheney copying over several generations, collecting the youngest generations more quickly, so I think beyond a couple more hardware barriers, it's generally faster in every way than a single Cheney heap.
2020-09-15T02:18:28Z mfiano: All I can say is at least CL or its implementations isn't like Nim (language). They have 7 (and counting) GC's for different levels of soft and hard-real time. Excessive much?
2020-09-15T02:19:28Z no-defun-allowed: Not really, I've frequently been annoyed at gencgc pause times (which are noticeably long with large heaps). But try tuning a JVM collector...
2020-09-15T02:20:27Z _death: mfiano: the reason I thought it'd drop back to the repl is because that's what it does with sbcl --eval.. so then you have the --quit option
2020-09-15T02:20:34Z mfiano: Nim is just a toy, and this is but one example of a plethora of experiments being pushed into releases after little testing. The whole compiler is full of these "not sure what I want this project to be" things
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2020-09-15T02:23:12Z no-defun-allowed: Looking at that, none of the collectors look any good, with just non-generational mark-sweep or refcounting. gencgc would be better in everything but pause times then.
2020-09-15T02:23:14Z mfiano: (spent 2 months porting some Lisp code to Nim until I gave up at the inconsistencies and stability issues). Also, it has to call out to libc for a bunch, with a high overhead even with GC disabled. Trigonometric functions were much slower than managed SBCL for example.
2020-09-15T02:24:00Z mfiano: no-defun-allowed: The new one, is not really refcounting according to the author.
2020-09-15T02:24:18Z no-defun-allowed: Which is the new one?
2020-09-15T02:24:23Z mfiano: Arc
2020-09-15T02:24:33Z ldbeth: any GC is between refcounting and mark sweep
2020-09-15T02:24:53Z no-defun-allowed: Is it going to be like the Go collector which is really from the 70s? Oh, well that's just refcounting again and you're being bullshitted.
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2020-09-15T02:25:28Z no-defun-allowed: "Plain reference counting with move semantic optimizations, offers a shared heap. It offers deterministic performance for hard realtime systems. Reference cycles cause memory leaks, beware." Citation needed on the deterministic part, but yeah the first three words contradict that.
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2020-09-15T02:26:24Z no-defun-allowed: ldbeth: I disagree, Cheney collection doesn't really mark or sweep, or count references. Mark-compact doesn't really sweep either.
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2020-09-15T02:26:54Z _death: copying collectors
2020-09-15T02:26:57Z mfiano: Yeah I know. The author is very strange when he talks about it on IRC, preferring not to compare it with reference counting. He is like that about a lot of these "innovative" tangents
2020-09-15T02:27:47Z no-defun-allowed: "Marking" in the former is done by shallow-copying the object from oldspace to newspace, then overwriting the object with a reference to the newspace copy (so that it won't be copied more than once).
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2020-09-15T02:31:49Z ldbeth: correction: not mark sweep, it is tracing
2020-09-15T02:32:44Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, tracing is the name of the not-refcounting category.
2020-09-15T02:33:58Z mfiano: Do you have any good resources on the two methods, at a low enough level to gain something, but high enough for someone that never implemented either?
2020-09-15T02:34:30Z ldbeth: it's according to https://researcher.watson.ibm.com/researcher/files/us-bacon/Bacon04Unified.pdf
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2020-09-15T02:34:54Z no-defun-allowed: I used the Garbage Collection Handbook to implement the incremental copying collector I wrote, but it is frequently hard to understand.
2020-09-15T02:35:01Z mfiano: About 6 months ago I tried implementing a refcounter for my game engine, but I stashed it due to callback hell problems
2020-09-15T02:35:08Z mfiano: I need to research it proper
2020-09-15T02:35:09Z _death: there was that gc-survey paper
2020-09-15T02:36:03Z _death: https://courses.physics.illinois.edu/cs426/fa2019/Papers/wilson.gc.bigsurv.pdf
2020-09-15T02:38:10Z mfiano: Thanks
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2020-09-15T02:49:43Z ldbeth: https://xavierleroy.org/publi/ZINC.pdf
2020-09-15T02:51:04Z ldbeth: This article I'm reading gives some interesting insight on toploop/REPL
2020-09-15T02:51:25Z ldbeth: 2.4 Toplevels considered harmful
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2020-09-15T02:54:07Z ldbeth: although the author shows a preference of UNIX C compiler tool chains, this sections provides some examples on how important could a clear isolation method in REPL enviornment be, also hints on how a first class environment been used to implement useful developing tools
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2020-09-15T03:01:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-15T03:19:38Z ldbeth: hello beach
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2020-09-15T09:19:09Z contrapunctus: So I made a PR updating the link to Temperance on awesome-cl. However, I've still not found a repository for cl-advice, not even on GitHub (well, there's a "trivial-advice", but I'm not sure that's the same)
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2020-09-15T09:23:22Z phoe: it's not in quicklisp
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2020-09-15T10:17:13Z seokk: hello!
2020-09-15T10:18:17Z seokk: I'm getting a file-perror trying to run portacle on a friend's windows
2020-09-15T10:18:30Z seokk: cannot find slime.9872 file in temp folder
2020-09-15T10:19:07Z seokk: we've looked in there and no slime file exists, so slime won't boot up
2020-09-15T10:20:24Z dra: seokk: I think that question will have more success in #slime.
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2020-09-15T10:22:22Z seokk: ah thank you!
2020-09-15T10:22:25Z dra: seokk: Or #shirakumo.
2020-09-15T10:22:38Z dra: You're welcome!
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2020-09-15T11:41:01Z lambdanon: Hey there, I'm trying to (use-package 'cl-ana.generic-math) in SLIME, but every time I launch the REPL I have to choose TAKE-NEW every time there's a name conflict. Is there a way to use the package while automatically overriding all functions?
2020-09-15T11:41:45Z phoe: lambdanon: which package are you in?
2020-09-15T11:41:48Z phoe: CL-USER?
2020-09-15T11:42:10Z lambdanon: Yeah that's right
2020-09-15T11:42:40Z lambdanon: phoe: I see, so I need to use (in-package) to override the function names?
2020-09-15T11:42:51Z White_Flame: what's a sampling of symbols are conflicting?
2020-09-15T11:42:57Z White_Flame: *that are
2020-09-15T11:43:05Z phoe: (defpackage my-package (:use #:cl)) (in-package #:my-package) (cl-ana.generic-math:use-gmath)
2020-09-15T11:43:12Z phoe: this is based on https://github.com/ghollisjr/cl-ana/blob/master/generic-math/generic-math.lisp#L48-L51
2020-09-15T11:43:27Z lambdanon: White_Flame: arithmetic operations like +, *, etc
2020-09-15T11:43:40Z lambdanon: phoe: I'll give that a try, cheers :)
2020-09-15T11:44:00Z White_Flame: yeah, this appears documented
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2020-09-15T11:46:20Z lambdanon: phoe: I need to specify a package for cl-ana.generic-math:use-gmath. Do I need to use something like #:CL-USER?
2020-09-15T11:46:35Z phoe: oh!
2020-09-15T11:46:41Z phoe: (use-gmath *package*)
2020-09-15T11:46:48Z phoe: should have been the default, really
2020-09-15T11:47:00Z phoe: or (use-gmath :my-package)
2020-09-15T11:49:16Z lambdanon: that seems to have worked when it comes to overriding the functionality, thanks
2020-09-15T11:50:32Z phoe: in particular, CL-USER has its own set of USEd packages that is implementation-defined
2020-09-15T11:50:59Z phoe: it uses CL for sure, and this includes CL:+, CL:-, CL:* and other symbols that are likely to collide with generic math symbols
2020-09-15T11:52:21Z lambdanon: although it's not quite what I was looking for in terms of functionality
2020-09-15T11:52:26Z lambdanon: Looking at the github (https://github.com/ghollisjr/cl-ana/wiki/Generic-Math): "Tensors have all available generic math functions defined for them automatically as long as the tensor sublibrary is loaded prior to defining the functions with defmath."
2020-09-15T11:52:59Z lambdanon: their code example for adding two lists is: (+ '((1 2) (3 4)) '(1 2 3)). But when I run this code after loading the package, I get an error
2020-09-15T11:53:34Z lambdanon: There is no applicable method for the generic function
2020-09-15T11:53:35Z lambdanon:   #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION CL-ANA.GENERIC-MATH:ADD (1)>
2020-09-15T11:53:35Z lambdanon: when called with arguments
2020-09-15T11:53:35Z lambdanon:   (((1 2) (3 4)) (1 2 3)).
2020-09-15T11:54:12Z AeroNotix: Why people insist on using symbols in the CL package never ceases to confuse me
2020-09-15T11:54:25Z AeroNotix: re-using*, in their own packages
2020-09-15T11:54:25Z phoe: what do you mean, using symbols in the CL package
2020-09-15T11:54:33Z AeroNotix: like redefining #:+
2020-09-15T11:54:39Z AeroNotix: CL:+
2020-09-15T11:54:41Z jackdaniel: because it is the most natural name for addition
2020-09-15T11:54:47Z phoe: because they can
2020-09-15T11:54:51Z AeroNotix: I get that but it just causes crap like this^
2020-09-15T11:56:03Z phoe: right, the problem would just solve itself if we enforced one-name-globally because everyone would write (cl-ana.generic-math.+ '((1 2) (3 4)) '(1 2 3))
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2020-09-15T11:57:09Z phoe: the thing that also really irks me is that someone once implemented mathematical sets as (DEFCLASS MY-SET-LIBRARY:SET ...) which is an obvious naming conflict with the CL package as well
2020-09-15T11:57:19Z phoe:  /s
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2020-09-15T11:58:26Z jackdaniel: if I write the application, which manages delivery, I'd expect that there is a function find-package
2020-09-15T11:58:40Z jackdaniel: and I would be surprised if it had found an object of the type cl:package
2020-09-15T11:59:07Z Alfr_: You could call it find-parcel .
2020-09-15T11:59:23Z lambdanon: Turns out the code example they had was a mistake. Even when I explicitly used cl-ana.generic-math:+, the example failed. Using (+ '((1 0) (0 1)) '((-1 1) (3 5))) has worked, however
2020-09-15T11:59:46Z lambdanon: either that or I'm still being a dumbass. That's probably the case lmao
2020-09-15T12:09:05Z Inline: '((1 2) (3 4)) and '(1 2 3) are not isomorphic
2020-09-15T12:10:02Z Inline: (+ '((1 2) (3 4)) '((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) works
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2020-09-15T12:11:33Z Inline: so the above example would have been (+ '((1 2) (3 4)) '((1 2 3)))
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2020-09-15T13:10:44Z mseddon: Is there a modern common lisp style guide that is widely accepted btw?
2020-09-15T13:10:55Z Inline: yes
2020-09-15T13:11:16Z mseddon: does anyone know where it is? :)
2020-09-15T13:11:47Z Inline: https://lisp-lang.org/style-guide/
2020-09-15T13:12:00Z mseddon: thanks!
2020-09-15T13:12:38Z beach: The one from Google is mostly good.
2020-09-15T13:12:43Z beach: I think Fare wrote it.
2020-09-15T13:13:12Z mseddon: I was surprised to see a google style guide for CL, I thought google didn't use it.
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2020-09-15T13:13:47Z beach: They bought the company that used Common Lisp for airline trip planning.  I forget the name.
2020-09-15T13:14:50Z mseddon: beach: I forgot it too, but I definitely remember it, big name in the early 2000's
2020-09-15T13:14:59Z beach: Oh, they suggest prefixing the slot accessor with the class name.  That's not a great idea.
2020-09-15T13:15:05Z beach: ITA?
2020-09-15T13:15:14Z jackdaniel: yes, the flight company was called ita
2020-09-15T13:15:30Z mseddon: ah yeah! that was it.
2020-09-15T13:15:58Z jackdaniel: prefixing the slot accessor with the class name is probably a tactic to make classes /more/ interchangable with structures
2020-09-15T13:16:23Z jackdaniel: (i.e to use classes like you use structures - strictly as data containers)
2020-09-15T13:16:54Z beach: Oh, that sounds plausible, and it makes it even worse.
2020-09-15T13:17:06Z mseddon: beach: what would you suggest instead of prefixing the accessor? I have a lot of silly AST classes for this toy compiler, and e.g.  for a lambda I have lambda-exp to access the body, and for a let0 I have let0-exp to access the expression for a simple assignment.
2020-09-15T13:17:22Z beach: mseddon: Not prefixing it.
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2020-09-15T13:17:31Z mseddon: and yes, I am in this habit because for years I used defstruct.
2020-09-15T13:17:41Z mseddon: oh, right, the accessor becomes generic. duh.
2020-09-15T13:17:47Z beach: Yep.
2020-09-15T13:18:05Z mseddon: how embarrassing. I'll do that then :)
2020-09-15T13:18:08Z jackdaniel: I suppose that it depends on the preferred programming style
2020-09-15T13:18:13Z beach: It looks really dumb when you have deep inheritance, like (SHEET-PARENT PANE) in CLIM.
2020-09-15T13:18:31Z mseddon: beach: I agree it gets irritatingly verbose pretty quickly.
2020-09-15T13:18:54Z jackdaniel: i.e having accessors with such prefixes gives you better context (as a reader)
2020-09-15T13:19:04Z beach: And why would you want the SHEET parent of a PANE, rather than the PANE parent of ot?
2020-09-15T13:19:07Z beach: of it?
2020-09-15T13:20:04Z jackdaniel: because here you treat the pane as a sheet (n.b had pane be a structure, then you'd be able to use pane-parent, so clearly defstruct designer tought about that)
2020-09-15T13:20:27Z jackdaniel: so the context for the reader is that this object is a sheet
2020-09-15T13:20:34Z mseddon: in the case of CLIM, I think it inherited a lot of names from FLAVORS on the lispms didn't it?
2020-09-15T13:20:55Z jackdaniel: I don't have clear opinion what is better, I is just not clearly wrong to me
2020-09-15T13:21:04Z jackdaniel: s/I is/it is/
2020-09-15T13:21:26Z jackdaniel: mseddon: mostly it inherited names from dynamic windows, if from anything
2020-09-15T13:21:36Z mseddon: right, yeah.
2020-09-15T13:22:03Z mseddon: which iirc flavors would generate accessors much like defstruct
2020-09-15T13:22:09Z mseddon: but it's... been a rather long time :)
2020-09-15T13:23:01Z jackdaniel: thought°
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2020-09-15T13:36:12Z AeroNotix: talking of style guides is there anything which codifies https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml into an emacs thing?
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2020-09-15T13:36:23Z AeroNotix: (codifies as much as is possible, at least)
2020-09-15T13:36:30Z Inline: elisp has it's own guide
2020-09-15T13:36:38Z Inline: ask in #emacs
2020-09-15T13:36:44Z AeroNotix: right
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2020-09-15T13:37:07Z Inline: and also there's luv-slides.ps on https://kantz.com/htm/common-lisp-links.htm for example
2020-09-15T13:37:44Z Inline: from pitman and norvig
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2020-09-15T14:51:03Z Josh_2: afternoon
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2020-09-15T15:04:04Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-09-15T16:10:13Z treflip: Ooof, py4cl is a strange beast. On one machine it represents tree from nltk as a nested vector, on another machine it represents it as a python-object (0_o)
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2020-09-15T16:51:31Z mseddon: treflip: that sounds horribly b0rked.
2020-09-15T16:53:28Z p_l: treflip: check python versions as well as py4cl versions there?
2020-09-15T16:53:36Z p_l: also, check if you don't have differences in loaded libraries
2020-09-15T16:55:54Z Josh_2: treflip: did you try py4cl2?
2020-09-15T16:56:16Z treflip: Ok, will do. But I think I'll make my python program retrun str(result) and read it in lisp to make it more portable.
2020-09-15T16:56:47Z treflip: Josh_2: I wasn't aware of py4cl2 0_o
2020-09-15T16:57:02Z Josh_2: When I did some work communicating with CL and Py I used py4cl2 and it worked just fine
2020-09-15T16:57:58Z treflip: I'll take a look, thanks
2020-09-15T16:58:19Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2053#2053 granted what I did was extremely trivial
2020-09-15T17:01:05Z treflip: Ok, I have something a little bit more complex because I need to receive data from python process and process it in lisp.
2020-09-15T17:02:47Z treflip: mseddon: By the way, I gave up on writing a parser in CL and decided to use nltk for now >_<
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2020-09-15T17:07:36Z mseddon: treflip: hehe, fair enough. So long as you can get the derivations, you can at least do what you want. Revisit that when you feel up to it.
2020-09-15T17:08:22Z mseddon: treflip: I hope, at least, that you are still generating your own grammar.
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2020-09-15T17:13:20Z treflip: mseddon: I'm writing my own mechanism for semantic interpretation. For now I want to concentrate on it. I'll replace all python code with CL when I have a working prototype, I promise :D
2020-09-15T17:14:17Z Aurora_v_kosmose: How would one generally make an executable with ecl and have it execute a given entrypoint? The only thing I can come-up with is to manually pass --eval '(my-entrypoint)' to the resulting executable and having it stop execution itself.
2020-09-15T17:14:41Z Aurora_v_kosmose has been spoiled by sbcl's niceties
2020-09-15T17:17:00Z tychoish: I'd just use asdf's :build-pathname + :entry-point
2020-09-15T17:18:11Z Aurora_v_kosmose: That would probably be the right (and easier) way to do it, but I was curious how I'd go about doing it manually.
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2020-09-15T17:23:09Z Bike: you could look at what asdf is doing
2020-09-15T17:23:22Z phoe: Aurora_v_kosmose: I'd use Shinmera's deploy or uiop:dump
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2020-09-15T17:26:29Z Aurora_v_kosmose: I'll do so. In any case, the idea I came up with seems to also work.
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2020-09-15T17:47:11Z ennn: Hello. Does anyone know if the CLHS symbol lookup tool at https://www.xach.com/lisp/clhs-search/ is likely to be fixed?
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2020-09-15T17:51:21Z mseddon: I would ask Xach that.
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2020-09-15T17:52:35Z mseddon: ennn: in the meantime, I'd look here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Front/X_Symbol.htm
2020-09-15T17:55:20Z mseddon: ennn: or with a (quicklisp:quickload "clhs") you can then add (load "~/.quicklisp/clhs-use-local.el" 'noerror) to your ~/emacs/init.el, which is even nicer.
2020-09-15T17:58:21Z mseddon: that'll give you M-x hyperspec-lookup etc. and you can tie that into slime.
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2020-09-15T19:02:42Z dbotton: I am considering learning and using lisp for a new project. Is there a good article or reference on concurrency programming with lisp?
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2020-09-15T19:15:30Z contrapunctus: dbotton: I found this, although being a newbie myself, I'm not sure if it will be endorsed by more experienced Lispers. https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2016/08/29/basic-concurrency-and-parallelism-in-common-lisp-part-1-setup/
2020-09-15T19:16:25Z contrapunctus: dbotton: and I hope you're aware of awesome-cl - https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl#parallelism-and-concurrency
2020-09-15T19:17:54Z dbotton: Thanks!
2020-09-15T19:18:20Z dbotton: First just started on
2020-09-15T19:20:41Z contrapunctus: dbotton: and if you need a resource to learn CL, check these out, especially Practical Common Lisp. https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl#learning-and-tutorials
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2020-09-15T19:23:04Z contrapunctus: dbotton: another concurrency/parallelism resource - https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/process.html
2020-09-15T19:24:11Z dbotton: Thanks again.
2020-09-15T19:24:26Z contrapunctus: Cheers 🙂
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2020-09-15T19:44:12Z Josh_2: concurrency in CL is like it is in most languages, except you can use macros etc to abstract away annoying lock grabs
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2020-09-15T19:44:38Z Josh_2: or just implement classes with the MOP that mean you don't have to worry about manually handling locks (as much) like in Java or whatnot
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2020-09-15T20:51:51Z AeroNotix: What's the shortest lisp you can make an implementation segv with?
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2020-09-15T20:52:39Z edgar-rft: I think the shorthest lisp is "th"
2020-09-15T20:52:49Z AeroNotix: edgar-rft: that wasn't the question
2020-09-15T20:53:09Z phoe: (cffi:mem-ref (cffi:null-pointer) :int)
2020-09-15T20:53:21Z AeroNotix: phoe: good one but uses libraries
2020-09-15T20:53:30Z phoe: you want standard CL?
2020-09-15T20:53:37Z AeroNotix: yeah I'd take contrib stuff too
2020-09-15T20:53:47Z AeroNotix: e.g. any sb-* is fair game
2020-09-15T20:54:06Z AeroNotix: standard CL for the absolute top
2020-09-15T20:54:17Z AeroNotix: sb-alien will be easy
2020-09-15T20:54:21Z phoe: (sb-sys:signed-sap-ref-32 (sb-sys:int-sap 0) 0)
2020-09-15T20:54:28Z AeroNotix: another good one!
2020-09-15T20:54:29Z phoe: there, no CFFI
2020-09-15T20:54:31Z AeroNotix: :)
2020-09-15T20:54:37Z phoe: as for standard CL, you can't have that, CL is a memsafe language
2020-09-15T20:54:50Z phoe: you can try doing stuff with undefined behavior but that is no longer standard CL.
2020-09-15T20:54:51Z AeroNotix: phoe: yeah was wondering if there was a portable way to segv
2020-09-15T20:55:13Z phoe: AeroNotix: no
2020-09-15T20:55:32Z edgar-rft: isn't SEGV a C thing?
2020-09-15T20:55:39Z AeroNotix: no it's a computer thing
2020-09-15T20:56:01Z AeroNotix: all programs could theoretically do it
2020-09-15T20:56:10Z froggey: (rplaca (list nil) 42) ; implementations may implement GC write barriers using segfaults
2020-09-15T20:56:10Z edgar-rft: then please give a definition
2020-09-15T20:56:26Z AeroNotix: edgar-rft: invalid memory access
2020-09-15T20:56:34Z phoe: ((lambda () (print (restart-bind ((x (lambda ()))) (compute-restarts))))) but only on SBCL
2020-09-15T20:56:36Z phoe: and this is UB anyway.
2020-09-15T20:57:59Z AeroNotix: phoe: nice
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2020-09-15T20:59:18Z phoe: fun fact: typing (compute-restarts) in the REPL invokes undefined behavior
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2020-09-15T21:00:01Z AeroNotix: why?
2020-09-15T21:00:12Z katco: is there anything to reference for the size and efficiency of alists, plists, and hash-tables? i am interested in a general source, but if it helps i'm currently working on sbcl.
2020-09-15T21:00:15Z phoe: (compute-restarts) returns a list of restart objects
2020-09-15T21:00:25Z phoe: restart objects are dynamic extent
2020-09-15T21:00:29Z AeroNotix: aha!
2020-09-15T21:00:48Z Bike: but shouldn't any restarts returned be in the dynamic extent of the repl?
2020-09-15T21:01:17Z AeroNotix: btw when you deploy a Lisp image do you typically install a swank listener?
2020-09-15T21:01:18Z phoe: Bike: I can imagine a rare, but possible situation, where a restart is established around the EVAL step of the repl
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2020-09-15T21:01:30Z phoe: and that doesn't carry over to the PRINT step of the repl
2020-09-15T21:01:45Z phoe: weird and bizarre and no one really does that I think, but theoretically possible
2020-09-15T21:02:16Z Bike: hm, i guess. that would be pretty bizarre.
2020-09-15T21:02:18Z phoe: I also think this is more or less how ((lambda () (print (restart-bind ((x (lambda ()))) (compute-restarts))))) crashes SBCL, since it's fairly similar code
2020-09-15T21:02:39Z Bike: in that case the going out of extent is obvious.
2020-09-15T21:02:50Z Bike: well. "obvious". as obvious as that ever is
2020-09-15T21:02:57Z phoe: yes, correct
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2020-09-15T21:03:51Z Bike: ((lambda (&rest r) (declare (dynamic-extent r)) r) 1 2 3) => (#<SB-IMPL::STRING-OUTPUT-STREAM {7F4E84E25D93}> . 688039619)
2020-09-15T21:03:52Z phoe: but I can imagine e.g. slime doing stuff like (let ((result (restart-bind ... (eval form)))) (print result))
2020-09-15T21:03:54Z Bike: but no segfault. shame
2020-09-15T21:04:19Z Bike: sbcl is so credulous about dynamic-extent
2020-09-15T21:04:23Z phoe: would be weird for printing not to be included, but you know
2020-09-15T21:04:25Z phoe: possible
2020-09-15T21:04:35Z Bike: oh, this happens even with safety 3
2020-09-15T21:04:48Z phoe: yes
2020-09-15T21:04:53Z phoe: UB is UB
2020-09-15T21:05:00Z phoe: and leaking DX values is always UB
2020-09-15T21:05:40Z phoe: bue hey
2020-09-15T21:05:41Z phoe: but hey*
2020-09-15T21:05:42Z phoe: ? ((lambda (&rest r) (declare (dynamic-extent r)) r) 1 2 3)
2020-09-15T21:05:42Z phoe: (#<CCL::STANDARD-KERNEL-METHOD PRINT-OBJECT (T T)> . 17490246810819)
2020-09-15T21:05:45Z phoe: that's on CCL
2020-09-15T21:05:54Z Bike: sure, but sbcl could be nicer about it
2020-09-15T21:06:00Z Bike: e.g. ignore dynamic-extent declarations at high safety
2020-09-15T21:06:15Z phoe: SBCL gave you a string output stream though, I think that's pretty nice
2020-09-15T21:06:26Z phoe: oh, you mean that
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2020-09-15T21:15:58Z Alfr_: Just skimmed one of contrapunctus' liks above, and I am wondering whether it's valid to use #.*standard-output* if one intends to save and restore the image.
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2020-09-15T21:16:56Z Alfr_: For the example, look for "read-time eval macro" in: https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2016/09/02/basic-concurrency-and-parallelism-in-common-lisp-part-3-concurrency-using-bordeaux-and-sbcl-threads/
2020-09-15T21:17:59Z Bike: i'm kind of surprised that that compiles.
2020-09-15T21:18:18Z Bike: streams aren't externalizable unless the implementation defines them so as an extension
2020-09-15T21:18:48Z Alfr_: I don't know that, I just bound *s-o* to a var, save-lisp-and-die'd, and used that var.
2020-09-15T21:20:17Z Alfr_: It works on sbcl, which I was quite surprised that it worked. Assuming *s-o* goes to fd1, then that's definitely an other one after restarting the image.
2020-09-15T21:20:32Z Bike: oh, wait, no, i see
2020-09-15T21:20:48Z Bike: since it's only evaluated at compile time, that function isn't dumped at all, so streams don't need to be externalizable
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2020-09-15T21:21:35Z Bike: that's kind of a different question from save/load though. i dunno what's going on there.
2020-09-15T21:21:51Z Bike: the sbcl manual mentions that *standard-output* and kin have different values after loading for obvious reasons.
2020-09-15T21:23:16Z Alfr_: They seem to have papered it over. Because in my test *s-o* and the var I saved it to compared eq after restoration.
2020-09-15T21:24:28Z Alfr_: Bike, out of interest, would you explain why you initially thought that it wouldn't compile?
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2020-09-15T21:24:39Z scymtym: in a vanilla SBCL the value of *STANDARD-OUTPUT* is a synonym stream
2020-09-15T21:24:46Z Bike: because streams aren't externalizable. you can't dump them in fasls.
2020-09-15T21:25:24Z Bike: using #. usually means the thing is externalized.
2020-09-15T21:25:56Z Alfr_: Bike, and how does that change w/ :compile-toplevel, as you've mentioned?
2020-09-15T21:26:24Z Bike: code in an eval-when isn't dumped in the fasl unless :load-toplevel is one of the situations.
2020-09-15T21:26:35Z Bike: if you compile that file, restart your lisp, and load the fasl, the function won't be defined.
2020-09-15T21:26:58Z Alfr_: Bike, ah ... I see. :D
2020-09-15T21:27:27Z Bike: actually you'll get an error, because it includes a call to that function and that call IS dumped
2020-09-15T21:28:47Z Alfr_: Hm ... but that code is possibly quite dead. In the "worst" case it lives in the compilation environment and then gets thrown away if the implementation chooses to. So, that function may simply be undefined and thus uninvokable afterwards?
2020-09-15T21:29:24Z Bike: what code, the call? the call isn't dead, it's right there in the file
2020-09-15T21:29:34Z Alfr_: I missed the call.
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2020-09-15T21:29:55Z Bike: me too, until i got the undefined function error
2020-09-15T21:30:48Z Alfr_: Many thanks for the clarification on this one. :)
2020-09-15T21:32:48Z Bike: mhm. eval-when and externalization are both very complicated parts of the spec that people don't think about much.
2020-09-15T21:33:49Z Alfr_: scymtym, so my envisioned problem happens a little bit further down and sbcl hides that form us by fixing the synonym stream on restore?
2020-09-15T21:35:54Z scymtym: Alfr_: there has been some recent change, but what i remember is that SB-SYS:*STDOUT*, the target of the synonym stream, is bound to a new stream after the restart. the synonym stream will then automatically use the new underlying stream
2020-09-15T21:38:29Z Alfr_: scymtym, good to know. But I still have no intention to abuse that.
2020-09-15T21:38:30Z scymtym: see SB-IMPL::STREAM-REINIT
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2020-09-15T21:52:37Z rpg: When we build SBCL, can we set the CC variables for make so that we get the right CC on a machine with the wrong one as default?
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2020-09-15T22:40:15Z edgar-rft: AeroNotix: Wikipedia defines "segmentation fault" as "A segmentation fault occurs when a program attempts to access a memory location that it is not allowed to access, or attempts to access a memory location in a way that is not allowed (for example, attempting to write to a read-only location, or to overwrite part of the operating system)."
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2020-09-15T22:41:06Z edgar-rft: According to that definition is trying to modify a symbol in the COMMON-LISP package a segmentation fault for example.
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2020-09-16T00:32:29Z AeroNotix: edgar-rft: what's your angle?
2020-09-16T00:33:17Z edgar-rft: my angle?
2020-09-16T00:33:25Z AeroNotix: edgar-rft: I'm not sure what you're trying to prove
2020-09-16T00:33:36Z AeroNotix: it's specifically referring to hardware memory, RAM.
2020-09-16T00:33:50Z AeroNotix: not just the abstract concept of data
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2020-09-16T00:34:31Z edgar-rft: AeroNotix: I don't try to prove anything, I just simply still do not understand what you're trying to achieve.
2020-09-16T00:34:39Z AeroNotix: edgar-rft: it was a fun game
2020-09-16T00:34:53Z AeroNotix: to try to find the smallest bit of code that would segfault a Lisp implementation
2020-09-16T00:35:24Z AeroNotix: p.hoe won the game
2020-09-16T00:35:39Z AeroNotix: (not wanting to tag because it's 2.30am for him)
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2020-09-16T03:17:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-09-16T03:23:27Z lacedaemon: good morning beach
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2020-09-16T04:03:58Z HiRE_: The other day someone mentioned SBCL is not as efficient as other lisp implementations. I don't really want to get into a flame war but are things like allegro really that much better?
2020-09-16T04:04:21Z HiRE_: I've noticed this sort of trend with other older languages...for example ADA and forth. The paid implementations are stellar compared to others.
2020-09-16T04:04:41Z HiRE_: Mostly just looking for a small compare/contrast for my own understanding (i use sbcl)
2020-09-16T04:05:25Z HiRE_: of course the "efficient" term here is very vague. I believe they meant performance-wise.
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2020-09-16T04:06:49Z White_Flame: I think that was beach's comment that SBCL's multimethod dispatch isn't as optimized as a new strategy might be
2020-09-16T04:07:21Z White_Flame: SBCL is basically going to be the fastest of the open source lisps
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2020-09-16T04:08:02Z HiRE_: are the pay to play versions of CL really that much better?
2020-09-16T04:09:01Z HiRE_: I suppose there's an added component of premium support that helps too...I digress.
2020-09-16T04:09:20Z White_Flame: yeah, they have much larger included libraries & tooling
2020-09-16T04:09:47Z HiRE_: Ah, so its a MATLAB vs Gnu...number thingy argument
2020-09-16T04:09:50Z White_Flame: I don't know if their compilers make code any faster than SBCL; back in the mid-2000s when I was using allegro it ended up being slower than sbcl
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2020-09-16T04:10:43Z HiRE_: How did you like allegro? The tooling actually seems pretty nice. Not that I could afford it lol. Even the student licenses are expensive.
2020-09-16T04:12:19Z beach: Just to be clear, my remark was not about SBCL vs Allegro.  I know next to nothing about Allegro and LispWorks in terms of performance.  My remark was about a technique SBCL is using that was good a few decades ago and that may no longer be so good.
2020-09-16T04:12:47Z beach: The SBCL garbage collector is probably another such feature to examine for possible impovements.
2020-09-16T04:13:11Z HiRE_: beach: didnt mean to single you out. I couldn't remember who said what and I've heard it quite a lot so I figured I would ask.
2020-09-16T04:13:29Z White_Flame: you've heard SBCL is slower than other CL implementations a lot?
2020-09-16T04:13:40Z White_Flame: because I haven't
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2020-09-16T04:14:38Z HiRE_: Just from guys who've used commercial implementations
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2020-09-16T04:15:02Z beach: I was under the impression that the code generated by SBCL/Python is generally the fastest among all existing implementations.
2020-09-16T04:15:46Z HiRE_: Interesting. That would be consistent with the benchmark game...if that even matters.
2020-09-16T04:16:40Z aeth: Afaik, SBCL is generally 3x to 5x slower than C or C++, so there are lots of places where it can improve, e.g. vectorization/SIMD. In fact, that's probably the main source of performance losses.
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2020-09-16T04:17:20Z aeth: But among CLs, it doesn't win every benchmark (e.g. iirc ECL has faster bignums), but it's usually at least about 3x faster than the other implementations
2020-09-16T04:17:41Z beach: aeth: You can't really compare those languages that way.  As I have pointed out, it is impossible to write a C++ program that is both fast and modular.
2020-09-16T04:18:32Z HiRE_: I suppose a good question to ask is how does SBCL generate a binary? Does it copy a runtime to it or directly generate bytecode?
2020-09-16T04:18:35Z HiRE_: assembly**
2020-09-16T04:18:35Z aeth: beach: Right. Language benchmarks are generally about how good of a FORTRAN languages are because these things are the easiest to benchmark (which is funny because now C++ tends to beat FORTRAN at its own game, finally)
2020-09-16T04:18:47Z aeth: beach: But SBCL can still mostly compete in this area.
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2020-09-16T04:19:01Z Bike: HiRE_: i don't know what "copy a runtime to it" means, but sbcl generates machine code.
2020-09-16T04:19:12Z no-defun-allowed: Forgive my ignorance, but what fraction of programs are definitely bound by number churning?
2020-09-16T04:19:12Z HiRE_: yeah im not using the right words.
2020-09-16T04:19:42Z HiRE_: I had meant something like SBCL doing what something like python -> exe would do (copy an entire runtime to the executable) or generate machine code.
2020-09-16T04:19:45Z HiRE_: You answered my question though
2020-09-16T04:20:00Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: I'd say quite a lot of programs, maybe most of the programs where performance actually matters, are either floating point or string processing.
2020-09-16T04:20:11Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL generates machine code and installs it into the running process; I don't think that dumps out an executable unless you save-lisp-and-die.
2020-09-16T04:20:42Z aeth: HiRE_: it copies the entire runtime to the executable and generates machine code. It's not either/or. Compiled languages can have large runtimes (SBCL is one).
2020-09-16T04:20:45Z Bike: HiRE_: a dumped sbcl executable will include runtime support code, but it's not a bytecode interpreter or anything. more like a really big libc.
2020-09-16T04:21:07Z no-defun-allowed: I think of the programs I made to go fast, only one (the video effects processor) is particularly reliant on number crunching.
2020-09-16T04:21:35Z aeth: HiRE_: Note that a CL application probably includes a full compiler with it, unless it's a commercial Lisp, in which case they probably want to protect the compiler for business reasons more than wanting to save RAM.
2020-09-16T04:21:39Z no-defun-allowed: An object storage node, not so much, but I guess a regular expression engine is poster child string processing.
2020-09-16T04:21:42Z HiRE_: Ah I see. The reason I even mentioned it is some of the slowdown could be the indirection. C might generate a syscall directly whereas something with a runtime might involve more instructions. I thought that might explain some of the slowdown.
2020-09-16T04:22:14Z no-defun-allowed: If I'm matching a string against a regular expression, what would require a syscall?
2020-09-16T04:22:33Z aeth: HiRE_: afaik, there is a bit of indirection. (foo ...) will look up the function namespace of the symbol 'foo, for whatever package that foo happens to be in
2020-09-16T04:23:04Z aeth: So you can redefine foo and as long as foo isn't inline, then it will look at (and thus call) the redefined foo
2020-09-16T04:23:07Z HiRE_: no-defun-allowed: probably not. I was thinking about a "hello world" I apologize.
2020-09-16T04:23:35Z aeth: HiRE_: but benchmarks aren't benchmarking function call overhead, they're benchmarking stuff like matrix multiplication
2020-09-16T04:23:35Z no-defun-allowed: Number processing also doesn't usually need syscalls; but filesystem access does, and I hate it, because when I go to profile my node, it's spending a lot of time checking for symlinks.
2020-09-16T04:24:13Z HiRE_: aeth: agreed. And programming language benchmarks aren't perfect either. Despite turing completeness the language can have a different intention that improves some aspects of its performance over others.
2020-09-16T04:25:59Z aeth: Oh, and ime (with running TIME) a generic function (method) call in SBCL is 10x slower than a function call, but only on the first call... since it's doing dynamic dispatch and then probably caching it.
2020-09-16T04:26:29Z aeth: (assuming most of the added overhead of a trivial function as DEFUN vs DEFMETHOD is the dispatch)
2020-09-16T04:26:44Z beach: HiRE_: As I said, comparing code generated from a Common Lisp compiler to that of something like C++ for some small benchmark isn't useful.  If you try to write a significant application in C++, there just isn't any way you can make it both fast and modular, and that usually means it is not fast.  Plus, it is still vulnerable to pointer bugs.  Common Lisp is just a much better choice, not matter the benchmarks.
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2020-09-16T04:27:47Z HiRE_: It is truly fascinating to me something like Mezzano exists. It really is a good support for the CL is just as good as C++ argument.
2020-09-16T04:27:51Z no-defun-allowed: Furthermore, both my RE engine and node software make good use of runtime compilation, which is much more difficult C or C++.
2020-09-16T04:28:31Z beach: HiRE_: Sort of.  Except that C++ is not particularly good at all.
2020-09-16T04:28:36Z no-defun-allowed: I don't feel like there has to be very much of an argument.
2020-09-16T04:28:40Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: and along those lines, pretty much every Common Lisper takes advantage of "hot loading" code during development, something that's impressive to a C++ programmer.
2020-09-16T04:29:00Z HiRE_: I'm not even a C++ programmer and hot loading code is impressive to me.
2020-09-16T04:29:10Z HiRE_: Erlang is another example that allows that type of thing.
2020-09-16T04:29:30Z HiRE_: Good example of what I will coin "spaceship proofing" a language :P
2020-09-16T04:29:37Z no-defun-allowed: The former is quite funny on ECL, because it passes a function with a whole bunch of gotos and array loads, and the C compiler spits out some glorious code slightly faster than SBCL somehow. The downside is you have to wait for a C compiler!
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2020-09-16T04:33:12Z aeth: beach: There's nothing stopping a CL implementation from competing in numeric benchmarks, though.
2020-09-16T04:33:15Z aeth: Maybe bounds checking, but there are ways around that, and if the length is known at compile time (and e.g. DECLAREd as part of the array type), then bounds checking can safely removed even with safety on.
2020-09-16T04:33:19Z borei: hi all
2020-09-16T04:33:36Z borei: noticed discussion about performance :-)
2020-09-16T04:33:42Z no-defun-allowed: Hello borei
2020-09-16T04:33:52Z aeth: hi borei
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2020-09-16T04:34:50Z borei: it's key thing for me as im moving my number-cruncher from C++ to lisp (SBCL).
2020-09-16T04:35:01Z no-defun-allowed: I cheat and optimize for (safety 0), as I'm sure that my generated code will do bound checking, but the compiler might take too long to traverse the giant TAGBODY form it makes.
2020-09-16T04:35:53Z borei: i did linear-algebra first as it is core part of my application. for matrix multiplication it's pretty close to C/C++ perfomance
2020-09-16T04:36:25Z borei: spline calculation (recursive functions) im getting approx 50% of C performance.
2020-09-16T04:37:21Z borei: graphics - OpenGL based, visually no lags, scenes has big number of vertexes.
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2020-09-16T04:37:51Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: (safety 0) basically makes no difference in my code because I include the length as part of the type, so almost all bounds checking is removed already, with safety on.
2020-09-16T04:38:00Z no-defun-allowed: (That generates something like this form: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2054>)
2020-09-16T04:38:04Z borei: so bottom line - lisp can provide pretty high performance even to aggressive to CPU apps
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2020-09-16T04:38:19Z aeth: The disadvantage with relying on the type to remove bounds checking, of course, is that something either has to be inline or the type has to be declared
2020-09-16T04:38:36Z aeth: s/something either/either something/
2020-09-16T04:38:55Z borei: critical parts can be easily implemented as CFFI library
2020-09-16T04:39:00Z no-defun-allowed: If it's not easy to compile at runtime, then regular expressions are one place Lisp may be faster than C.
2020-09-16T04:39:16Z no-defun-allowed: *at runtime in C or whatever other language you compare to
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2020-09-16T04:39:36Z aeth: borei: 50% of C? Interesting. Sounds like that's fast enough for ray tracing. (Not that real time ray tracing that's new to GPUs... I mean, fully ray traced scenes on the CPU.)
2020-09-16T04:39:42Z White_Flame: the main C regex library does do machine code byte generation, but I'm not sure if it's optimized
2020-09-16T04:40:00Z White_Flame: and of course, it'd have to know your CPU platform
2020-09-16T04:40:03Z no-defun-allowed: Byte code or machine code?
2020-09-16T04:40:07Z White_Flame: machine code
2020-09-16T04:40:14Z White_Flame: makes a byte array and casts to a function pointe
2020-09-16T04:40:15Z White_Flame: r
2020-09-16T04:40:26Z no-defun-allowed: That kinda compiler. Which library is that?
2020-09-16T04:40:32Z borei: aeth: yep i measured B-Spline calculations, lisp was x2 slower then C
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2020-09-16T04:41:03Z White_Flame: pcre
2020-09-16T04:41:25Z no-defun-allowed: I see.
2020-09-16T04:41:38Z borei: maybe not enough optimization on C side, i was trying to match the code logic.
2020-09-16T04:42:28Z borei: especially i was impressed on matrix multiplications - actually it was buying factor to go to lisp
2020-09-16T04:43:09Z aeth: Yes. Imo, saying "ignore the benchmarks" really undersells what CL can do.
2020-09-16T04:43:20Z aeth: CL was designed to win at benchmarks. Contrast with e.g. most Schemes.
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2020-09-16T04:44:16Z no-defun-allowed: You might get some use out of Petalisp then: https://github.com/marcoheisig/Petalisp
2020-09-16T04:44:32Z White_Flame: no-defun-allowed: https://vcs.pcre.org/pcre2/code/trunk/src/
2020-09-16T04:44:41Z beach: aeth: Sure.
2020-09-16T04:44:49Z borei: btw, got my first rados (ceph) client implementation - also very happy about results.
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2020-09-16T04:45:18Z borei: well it's CFFI wrapper, but still.
2020-09-16T04:45:21Z White_Flame: and yeah I think it's just concatenating predefined pieces of asm together, and doesn't do a compiler pass on top of that, so a CL implementation could still beat it
2020-09-16T04:45:37Z no-defun-allowed: White_Flame: sljit/ has the JIT, right?
2020-09-16T04:45:53Z White_Flame: yes, that's the code generators, while the src/ directory calls into it to concatenate the bits
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2020-09-16T04:46:51Z White_Flame: and of course, it's way more complex than a lisp version would be :-P
2020-09-16T04:47:49Z no-defun-allowed: If I wanted to be smug, I would say my engine is 2/3 the size of the x86_64 compiler backend, but it only knows regular things and not submatching, matching starts and ends of lines, character groups, etc.
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2020-09-16T04:51:45Z White_Flame: of course, there's sljitNativeX86_64.c, but also sljitNativeX86_common.c, and those are I guess just the code emitters; it's the parent level that does the actual "compilation" of the regex to the code emitter calls
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2020-09-16T07:06:47Z scymtym: no-defun-allowed: you could use (integer 0 #.array-dimension-limit) (or ALEXANDRIA:ARRAY-INDEX) instead of FIXNUM as the type of array indices. also, if i'm reading your generated code right, the declared type for the input is VECTOR. at least on SBCL a more precise type such as (and simple-string (not (vector nil))) can produce better code (you would have to handle non-simple strings and (vector nil) in some prologue, of course)
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2020-09-16T07:08:49Z no-defun-allowed: scymtym: That could help; though usually the high-level interface will pick the most specific type for the input vector.
2020-09-16T07:09:32Z aeth: interestingly, Alexandria defines it as, roughly, (integer 0 (#.(1- array-dimension-limit))) instead of (integer 0 #.array-dimension-limit)
2020-09-16T07:09:38Z aeth: I didn't even know you could do that.
2020-09-16T07:09:50Z scymtym: no-defun-allowed: you mean the high-level interface coerces the input to the most suitable array type?
2020-09-16T07:10:01Z aeth: (typep 3 '(integer 0 3)) is T and (typep 3 '(integer 0 (3))) is NIL, so apparently parenthesizing the integer makes it exclusive rather than inclusive.
2020-09-16T07:10:12Z no-defun-allowed: Er, it compiles code specialised for the most suitable array type.
2020-09-16T07:10:22Z no-defun-allowed: clhs integer
2020-09-16T07:10:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_intege.htm
2020-09-16T07:10:39Z no-defun-allowed: That takes you to...
2020-09-16T07:10:42Z no-defun-allowed: clhs 12.1.6
2020-09-16T07:10:42Z specbot: Interval Designators: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/12_af.htm
2020-09-16T07:10:48Z scymtym: aeth: i suggested the inclusive version because loop variables sometimes go one step beyond the indexable range
2020-09-16T07:11:59Z aeth: yes, particularly in LOOP, although I think that's actually UB and depends on how it's implemented (but the obvious way will go one over and stop there, since it's more efficient than testing before incrementing and then incrementing)
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2020-09-16T07:13:25Z scymtym: i didn't mean CL:LOOP variables specifically as no-defun-allowed's loop manages the input position "manually"
2020-09-16T07:13:29Z aeth: Not like it will matter on a 64-bit system since you'll run out of memory at the edge case far before you get there, though
2020-09-16T07:14:21Z aeth: A lot of people see #. as unnecessary. A lot of the time, it's needed in types, if you don't define them, but if you DEFTYPE and name them, then you can just use ` and ,
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2020-09-16T07:15:05Z aeth: The only place where I currently use #. is where I want to build up literal sequences, which is fairly rare.
2020-09-16T07:15:28Z aeth: (Even that can be replaced, this time with DEFMACRO.)
2020-09-16T07:16:26Z no-defun-allowed: Well, that loop goes one beyond the indexable range.
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2020-09-16T10:57:08Z beach: phoe: Isn't it supposed to start in 3 minutes?
2020-09-16T10:57:16Z beach: Did I get the time wrong?
2020-09-16T10:58:55Z phoe: beach: it is starting
2020-09-16T10:59:01Z beach: Ah, there it is.
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2020-09-16T12:01:58Z phoe: OK, OLM#9 is done and I'm uploading the video to YT.
2020-09-16T12:02:13Z phoe: beach: I'll mention in the video description that the SETF MACRO FUNCTION needs to be there on the proper slide.
2020-09-16T12:02:26Z beach: Thanks.
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2020-09-16T12:05:56Z phoe: beach: should it be (setf (macro-function name) ...)? or quasiquoted in some way?
2020-09-16T12:06:48Z beach: `(setf (macro-function ',name) ,(parse-macro...))
2020-09-16T12:08:10Z phoe: OK
2020-09-16T12:09:07Z beach: Untested.  Does it seem plausible to you?
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2020-09-16T12:09:29Z makomo: seems ok to me at a first glance
2020-09-16T12:09:35Z beach: Thanks.
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2020-09-16T12:10:02Z phoe: (defmacro defmacro (name lambda-list &body body) `(setf (macro-function ',name) (cleavir-code-utilities:parse-macro ',name ',lambda-list ',body)))
2020-09-16T12:10:11Z phoe: does this seem okay?
2020-09-16T12:10:25Z makomo: i think the parsing should be done at compile-time
2020-09-16T12:10:35Z makomo: quote goes in front of the whole (parse-macro ...) call
2020-09-16T12:10:54Z phoe: wait, no, it shouldn't go there
2020-09-16T12:10:57Z phoe: we are setting a macro function
2020-09-16T12:11:00Z makomo: otherwise you're just going to assign a literal lambda expression as the macro-function
2020-09-16T12:11:05Z phoe: so we want parse-macro to be evaluated and return a function
2020-09-16T12:11:07Z makomo: parse-macro returns a lambda expression iirc
2020-09-16T12:11:16Z phoe: oh, wait a second then...
2020-09-16T12:11:18Z beach: It does.
2020-09-16T12:11:25Z phoe: so we need a coerce 'function too?
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2020-09-16T12:11:30Z phoe: or COMPILE NIL?
2020-09-16T12:11:30Z beach: No.
2020-09-16T12:11:34Z White_Flame: so comma before (parse-macro ?
2020-09-16T12:11:36Z phoe: oh wait
2020-09-16T12:11:37Z makomo: yeah
2020-09-16T12:11:38Z phoe: unquoted!
2020-09-16T12:11:40Z phoe: yes, one second
2020-09-16T12:11:57Z phoe: (defmacro defmacro (name lambda-list &body body) `(setf (macro-function ',name) ,(cleavir-code-utilities:parse-macro name lambda-list body)))
2020-09-16T12:12:01Z makomo: indeed :D
2020-09-16T12:12:03Z beach: Right.
2020-09-16T12:12:07Z phoe: OK, thanks!
2020-09-16T12:12:09Z White_Flame: of course, depending on when you want parse-macro to run
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2020-09-16T12:12:52Z phoe: OK, https://youtu.be/kMivYV0pEMw
2020-09-16T12:13:51Z beach: Thanks!
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2020-09-16T12:15:40Z phoe: beach: could you link the slides again?
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2020-09-16T12:17:50Z beach: Hold on.  Let me upload first...
2020-09-16T12:19:13Z beach: http://metamodular.com/SICL/creating-a-common-lisp-implementation-part-3.pdf
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2020-09-16T12:22:05Z phoe: Thanks!
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2020-09-16T12:24:14Z phoe: soooooo
2020-09-16T12:24:31Z phoe: would anyone like to record a video for a meeting two weeks from now?
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2020-09-16T12:32:22Z scymtym: phoe: i'm working on one for eclector. though i'm tempted to talk about the profiling application first
2020-09-16T12:32:46Z beach: Yes, and yes!!! :)
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2020-09-16T12:35:06Z Josh_2: Afternoon
2020-09-16T12:35:11Z Josh_2: Whens the lisp meeting?
2020-09-16T12:35:27Z beach: 1.5 hours ago.
2020-09-16T12:35:32Z Josh_2: well
2020-09-16T12:35:41Z Josh_2: I guess I needed sleep more
2020-09-16T12:35:58Z jackdaniel: to the time machine Shinpachi!
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2020-09-16T12:38:00Z phoe: Josh_2: https://youtu.be/kMivYV0pEMw
2020-09-16T12:38:34Z Josh_2: thanks phoe
2020-09-16T12:38:50Z Josh_2: another banging beamer presentation
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2020-09-16T12:54:50Z heisig: Has someone already written an ASSOCF function that works like ASSOC, but always returns a suitable cons?
2020-09-16T12:55:22Z heisig: Meaning if the key is not found, it pushes (cons key nil) to the place that is the second argument and returns that cons.
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2020-09-16T12:58:04Z heisig: If not, I will have to deal with DEFINE-SETF-EXPANDER.  I was hoping I could avoid that.
2020-09-16T12:59:22Z phoe: heisig: alexandria has SETF ASSOC-VALUE that is kinda like that
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2020-09-16T13:03:00Z heisig: phoe: Thanks!  It offers no way to access the cons directly, but maybe I can work around that.
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2020-09-16T13:06:11Z phoe: if you want to access the cons cell, then you could try a combo of CL:ASSOC and SETF A:ASSOC-VALUE
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2020-09-16T13:08:21Z heisig: Turns out ASSOC-VALUE works just fine in my case, since it is SETFable.  That is almost as good as having the cons :)
2020-09-16T13:09:28Z ebrasca: Hi
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2020-09-16T13:12:26Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
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2020-09-16T13:23:44Z bhartrihari: Hello. What is supposed to be the init file name for CCL? I have code for initializing quicklisp in .cclrc but that doesn't seem to load quicklisp.
2020-09-16T13:24:29Z Josh_2: doesn't quicklisp do that for you?
2020-09-16T13:24:33Z Josh_2: when you install
2020-09-16T13:24:35Z phoe: nope, it doesn't
2020-09-16T13:24:43Z Josh_2: it does for sbcl
2020-09-16T13:24:46Z phoe: oh wait, you mean
2020-09-16T13:25:14Z phoe: (QL:ADD-TO-INIT-FILE)
2020-09-16T13:25:18Z Josh_2: yes
2020-09-16T13:25:20Z phoe: this should add it there
2020-09-16T13:25:23Z phoe: and print the filename too
2020-09-16T13:25:29Z phoe: CCL has a different file name
2020-09-16T13:25:40Z bhartrihari: I installed it with sbcl
2020-09-16T13:25:54Z phoe: then load setup.lisp and issue ql:add-to-init-file
2020-09-16T13:26:33Z bhartrihari: Maybe I can just copy the initializing code from. sbclrc?
2020-09-16T13:26:47Z phoe: sure, that's the manual way
2020-09-16T13:26:54Z phoe: ql:add-to-init-file will do it all for you
2020-09-16T13:27:28Z bhartrihari: Is the name supposed to be .cclrc?
2020-09-16T13:28:05Z bhartrihari: Thanks though.
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2020-09-16T13:28:41Z bhartrihari: Ah, no. It's .ccl-init.lisp
2020-09-16T13:34:51Z devon: See ~/quicklisp/quicklisp/impl-util.lisp init-file-name
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2020-09-16T14:41:33Z ebrasca: Can I make ~% to output CRLF instead of CR or LF?
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2020-09-16T14:53:36Z phoe: ebrasca: not really, use a flexi-stream to output the proper kind of newline
2020-09-16T14:53:58Z phoe: FORMAT is the wrong abstraction level to solve this problem
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2020-09-16T15:22:55Z mseddon: beach: enjoyed part 3, thanks for making it
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2020-09-16T15:25:09Z beach: mseddon: Pleasure.  Glad you liked it.
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2020-09-16T15:57:21Z sjl_: beach: I enjoyed it too.  Also I would be very interested in a presentation about how a CL compiler works (you mentioned in one of the early slides that might be a possibilty if enough folks were interested).
2020-09-16T15:58:08Z beach: sjl_: Thanks.  I guess I have to think about such a thing a bit more seriously.
2020-09-16T15:58:25Z beach: I would have to come up with the right level of abstraction.
2020-09-16T15:58:40Z beach: Otherwise, I'll drown in implementation details .
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2020-09-16T16:07:05Z bubo: Hi! Can someone help a Lisp newbie to debug the following function: https://pastebin.com/AgD8y6zA ?
2020-09-16T16:07:35Z bubo: (Tell me if that's not the right place for general help questions)
2020-09-16T16:08:01Z jackdaniel: it is an OK place, but it would be helpful if you had mentioned what's the bug
2020-09-16T16:08:08Z jackdaniel: because I don't have a package osc
2020-09-16T16:08:09Z Josh_2: whats wrong?
2020-09-16T16:08:25Z beach: The unwind-protect form looks wrong.
2020-09-16T16:08:31Z bubo: Allright. There is one dependency, the OSC package. It parses a list into an OSC message to be sent with usocket
2020-09-16T16:08:36Z Josh_2: there is no protected clause thats true
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2020-09-16T16:08:51Z bubo: The encoding-bundle (the central piece really) does work, and returns without error
2020-09-16T16:09:33Z jackdaniel: you probably want (unwind-protect (socket-send) #|cleanup forms start|# (format t "closing") (socket-close)) as noted by beach and Josh_2
2020-09-16T16:09:53Z bubo: However, when using this function, there is a very strange and never seen before error message that goes like: fell through ETYPECASE expression
2020-09-16T16:10:38Z jackdaniel: please paste somewhere a full error message
2020-09-16T16:11:06Z Josh_2: encode-buffer returns a byte array?
2020-09-16T16:11:37Z bubo: Allright, let me paste the error message on pastebin
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2020-09-16T16:12:16Z bubo: Here you go: https://pastebin.com/7ut6bqPL
2020-09-16T16:12:36Z bubo: First part is the very long (and correct OSC message)
2020-09-16T16:12:45Z bubo: as parsed by the OSC package
2020-09-16T16:13:06Z jackdaniel: what is the result of (type-of <result-of-osc-parsing>) ?
2020-09-16T16:13:57Z jackdaniel: my guess is that this osc produces an array of integers (i.e not unsinged bytes)
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2020-09-16T16:14:23Z bubo: (SIMPLE-VECTOR 32)
2020-09-16T16:15:30Z Josh_2: maybe try this (make-array (length <osc-arry>) :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-contents <osc-array>)
2020-09-16T16:15:39Z Josh_2: and then pass that to socket-send
2020-09-16T16:16:18Z jackdaniel: right, calling type-of is not super useful in this case
2020-09-16T16:16:45Z bubo: I'll try that and update you asap
2020-09-16T16:17:19Z eta usually uses (concatenate '(vector (unsigned-byte 8)) <input-array>) for that
2020-09-16T16:17:26Z eta: but that's probably not very efficient
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2020-09-16T16:19:58Z bubo: If I understand correctly, you ask me to replace (socket-send <this> (length <this>)) in the func?
2020-09-16T16:20:21Z Josh_2: To replace <this> with the newly created octet array
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2020-09-16T16:25:46Z bubo: What should be the argument of socket-close? Same as before?
2020-09-16T16:26:51Z bubo: Oh, nevermind. I guess it works now, let me run a quick test to find out if everything is ok
2020-09-16T16:27:39Z Josh_2: you should fix your (unwind-protect ..) form as well
2020-09-16T16:27:44Z Josh_2: because you don't have a cleanup
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2020-09-16T16:30:49Z bubo: It looks like the message is sent, because the server receives it and complains about it :o. But that's definitely a progress
2020-09-16T16:31:46Z Josh_2: yay!
2020-09-16T16:32:02Z bubo: the current unwind looks like this: (unwind-protect (progn (socket-send socket buffer (length buffer)) (format t "blabla") (socket-close socket)))
2020-09-16T16:32:21Z Josh_2: how do I summon the clhs bot?
2020-09-16T16:32:28Z phoe: clhs unwind-protect
2020-09-16T16:32:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_unwind.htm
2020-09-16T16:32:41Z phoe: bubo: why the progn
2020-09-16T16:32:49Z phoe: you only want SOCKET-SEND to be protected
2020-09-16T16:32:56Z Bike: probably the socket-close is supposed to be the cleanup?
2020-09-16T16:33:00Z phoe: SOCKET-CLOSE should be in the cleanup forms
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2020-09-16T16:35:08Z bubo: Everything works as expected now! Thanks for your help!
2020-09-16T16:35:55Z bubo: It's my first deep-dive into both CL and networking, love the language so far.
2020-09-16T16:37:25Z beach: Congratulations!
2020-09-16T16:37:40Z phoe: bubo: you use some sort of slime or sly or other toolkit, right?
2020-09-16T16:38:07Z Josh_2: very cool bubo!
2020-09-16T16:39:54Z bubo: phoe: Yes, Doom Emacs / Sly
2020-09-16T16:40:11Z phoe: bubo: perfect
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2020-09-16T16:49:45Z m_v_m: Hello all. I am quite new in a lisp world. I would like to use Lisp binding to leveldb. Everything is cool but I really don't know how to use it. The main thing is the class db there. I can not use it as a (make-instance 'leveldb:db). There is an error:  "The symbol ~S is not external in the ~A package.". Any ideas why?
2020-09-16T16:50:14Z phoe: m_v_m: https://github.com/death/leveldb ?
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2020-09-16T16:50:42Z phoe: _death: he's probably right, the symbol DB should be exported if it names a class
2020-09-16T16:51:23Z phoe: m_v_m: that's not the error, just its format string; you likely get something like "The symbol LEVELDB::DB is not external in the LEVELDB package."
2020-09-16T16:51:54Z phoe: the instance is created via the function LEVELDB:OPEN and that symbol is exported
2020-09-16T16:52:08Z _death: m_v_m: you're supposed to use leveldb:open or leveldb:with-open-db
2020-09-16T16:53:00Z phoe: still, it should be possible to CHECK-TYPE the type of DB
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2020-09-16T16:53:23Z _death: phoe: correct
2020-09-16T16:55:11Z m_v_m: _death: are you the owner of the repo?
2020-09-16T16:55:20Z _death: yes
2020-09-16T16:56:26Z m_v_m: I see that the last commit has been made some time ago. Is it not maintained anymore? Or (which is quite common in lisp world) so well writen then you dont need to do anything there ? :D
2020-09-16T16:58:21Z _death: I don't use it nowadays, but don't see why it should not work (assuming leveldb interface didn't change..).. patches are still welcome
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2020-09-16T17:00:38Z m_v_m: Ok, my last question before implementation. Should it be possible to search values by their prefixes? like ("dog----123123" "cat----123213") give me all "dogs" by (get "dog") ? (or something like that).
2020-09-16T17:01:58Z _death: you can use leveldb:map for that, with the right seek argument
2020-09-16T17:02:08Z m_v_m: thank you!
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2020-09-16T17:24:45Z treflip: What is the best way to work with Prolog in CL? I've read PAIP a long time ago and its part on embedded prolog was very impressive. Finally, I have a use case where I need to call an embedded or inferior Prolog from CL, but I don't know which approach is better. Or maybe I'm wrong and I don't need any Prolog at all :D
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2020-09-16T17:34:27Z alfonsox: is there a way to configue
2020-09-16T17:34:44Z Josh_2: treflip: there is the screamer library
2020-09-16T17:34:58Z Josh_2: treflip: https://github.com/nikodemus/screamer
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2020-09-16T17:35:17Z alfonsox: * configure Hunchentoot to delay the delete operation after a file upload ?
2020-09-16T17:35:46Z alfonsox: seems like by the time I try to copy file to some other location it is deleting the file
2020-09-16T17:36:20Z devon: alfonsox: How do you arrange for it to upload a file?
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2020-09-16T17:36:57Z alfonsox: Uploading through a browser
2020-09-16T17:37:04Z xristos: treflip: use paiprolog or call out to an external prolog process
2020-09-16T17:38:00Z xristos: simpler to start with paiprolog and later see if you need more than that
2020-09-16T17:38:41Z treflip: Josh_2: thanks, it looks interesting
2020-09-16T17:39:47Z alfonsox: @devon - I can see that file is getting uploaded to configured tmp directory. tested by uploading a large file.
2020-09-16T17:39:55Z treflip: xristos: yes, I'm working with it right now, but I'm not sure how it will perform with large rule bases.
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2020-09-16T17:49:08Z phoe: treflip: also https://github.com/sjl/temperance
2020-09-16T17:49:25Z treflip: Josh_2: wow, the documentation is very extensive, I like it :<)
2020-09-16T17:50:51Z devon: alfonsox: Your handler must move or copy the uploaded file from its temporary location.
2020-09-16T17:51:28Z treflip: phoe: Thanks, but "Temperance is still in development, don't actually try to use this for anything important yet" 0_o
2020-09-16T17:51:50Z Robdgreat: coward
2020-09-16T17:51:52Z Robdgreat: hahaha
2020-09-16T17:51:52Z treflip: I'll try it anyway
2020-09-16T17:54:22Z phoe: sjl_: I assume that hasn't changed, has it
2020-09-16T17:54:50Z sjl_: It has not.  I haven't had time to get back to it, and now that I'm not using it any more I have very little motivation to do so.
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2020-09-16T18:02:51Z devon: alfonsox: In your handler, does rename-file signal an error?
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2020-09-16T18:04:56Z alfonsox: @devon - I am trying copy file by opening a stream on temp upload file path and writing to another stream
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2020-09-16T18:09:23Z alfonsox: @devon - https://pastebin.com/TdZUefQx
2020-09-16T18:09:34Z alfonsox: if you want to look at code
2020-09-16T18:09:56Z phoe: uiop:copy-file?
2020-09-16T18:10:05Z alfonsox: may be I should use easy handler instead of prefix-dispatcher
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2020-09-16T20:05:27Z Inline: https://pastebin.com/csUzZAKv
2020-09-16T20:06:06Z Inline: what happens when you (defclass c (b b).....
2020-09-16T20:06:10Z Inline: lol
2020-09-16T20:06:15Z phoe: most likely an error
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2020-09-16T20:06:41Z Inline: right
2020-09-16T20:07:24Z Inline: the thing is, the debugger seems all ok at first sight, but shortly after it feels like it looses it's event ermm
2020-09-16T20:07:28Z Inline: how do you call it
2020-09-16T20:08:47Z Inline: yah event-loop
2020-09-16T20:09:01Z Inline: it looks like it looses it's event loop shortly after
2020-09-16T20:09:13Z Inline: tho it has restart options
2020-09-16T20:09:49Z Inline: so it gets totally unreactive but doesn't affect the repl in the terminal
2020-09-16T20:10:43Z Inline: one can also try other conflicting orders of the cpl, it's the same
2020-09-16T20:11:28Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2055#2055
2020-09-16T20:11:29Z phoe: huh?
2020-09-16T20:11:34Z phoe: the debugger seems okay for me
2020-09-16T20:11:50Z phoe: if I take the 0th restart the REPL is all okay
2020-09-16T20:13:00Z Inline: nope, here it is gone
2020-09-16T20:13:12Z Inline: i can't take any option, neither the 0th or whatever
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2020-09-16T20:14:12Z Inline: so the listener state is slightly garbled too
2020-09-16T20:14:22Z phoe: which implementation is that?
2020-09-16T20:14:30Z phoe: and which environment?
2020-09-16T20:14:45Z Inline: sbcl-2.0.8
2020-09-16T20:15:06Z phoe: is that slime, sly, terminal?
2020-09-16T20:15:09Z Inline: with clim-gitlab and mcclim-0.9.7-imbolc
2020-09-16T20:15:34Z Inline: it is the clim-listener which gets run from a terminal repl
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2020-09-16T20:16:50Z phoe: let me try upgrading to 2.0.8 real quick
2020-09-16T20:17:03Z Inline: okiii
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2020-09-16T20:26:25Z phoe: works in terminal
2020-09-16T20:26:39Z phoe: I have no idea what's going on with the listener itself; are there any backtraces other than that?
2020-09-16T20:26:58Z Inline: no
2020-09-16T20:27:02Z Inline: it freezes
2020-09-16T20:27:11Z phoe: is there no sldb occurring in slime?
2020-09-16T20:27:13Z phoe: well then, huh
2020-09-16T20:27:16Z Inline: no
2020-09-16T20:27:23Z Inline: i have not seen any sldb
2020-09-16T20:27:28Z phoe: maybe #clim will be able to help better
2020-09-16T20:27:35Z Inline: ok, thank you
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2020-09-17T01:57:25Z arbol: Hi can I program a LISP with Vim? I tried Clojure using the Calva extension for VS Code but it wasn't compatible with Vim and I couldn't understand the slurp/barf editing stuff. It's hard to learn a new language and also have to learn a new way to edit the code when I work in many other languages in the Vim style often. Any advice?
2020-09-17T01:57:58Z no-defun-allowed: You can use SLIMV on Vim for Common Lisp, but I can't say if it's any good because I usually use SLIME on Emacs.
2020-09-17T02:00:20Z arbol: Thanks I bookmarked it to look into more later. Can you program LISP with just a "normal" text editing style? Without having to use plugins that change your editing workflow and such
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2020-09-17T02:01:40Z no-defun-allowed: No, you need a teletype to program LISP. As for Lisp, I never got to learning Paredit so it's quite possible.
2020-09-17T02:02:44Z edgar-rft: arbol:  you can even program Lisp *without* a text editor by typing everything directly into the REPL
2020-09-17T02:03:42Z edgar-rft: best support has emacs+slime, but it's also possible with vim+slimv
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2020-09-17T02:03:44Z arbol: Hm Ok. I'm thinking about getting Practical Common Lisp the book. Maybe I just need to dedicate a week to it, take the productivity hit, and hope I can absorb it all and adjust my mindset. I had to do that when switching to Vim style editing and the payoff was worth it
2020-09-17T02:04:49Z arbol: Is EMACS + Slime kind of like paredit? The barf/slurp stuff? And would that be explained in a Common Lisp book?
2020-09-17T02:06:04Z no-defun-allowed: Again, you can leave your teletype at home; but SLIME just makes it possible to send code to a Common Lisp process quickly, and provides a nice debugger and inspector among other things. It doesn't change your editing style.
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2020-09-17T02:07:04Z edgar-rft: slime is an emacs library that manages the communication with an external common-lisp binary, paredit is an emacs library that can additionally be used if you want
2020-09-17T02:07:55Z no-defun-allowed: From memory, PCL doesn't mention any editor though (other than Lisp in a Box, which was Emacs+SLIME+SBCL and is basically superseded by Portacle <https://portacle.github.io/> as far as I know).
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2020-09-17T02:08:50Z arbol: I don't know what a teletype is
2020-09-17T02:09:54Z no-defun-allowed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleprinter "A teleprinter (teletypewriter, teletype or TTY) is an electromechanical device that no-defun-allowed assumes you use if you write not-upcased acronyms upcased frequently."
2020-09-17T02:12:06Z arbol: A keyboard?
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2020-09-17T02:12:31Z no-defun-allowed: There are pictures, but it's not too relevant.
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2020-09-17T02:20:50Z borei: arbol: Practical Common Lisp spinning around programming in lisp, it's absolutely agnostic to the IDE/text editor you are using.
2020-09-17T02:21:49Z borei: good morning/afternoon everybody !
2020-09-17T02:22:13Z no-defun-allowed: Hello borei.
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2020-09-17T02:31:57Z arbol: Thanks guys
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2020-09-17T03:36:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-17T03:46:09Z iissaacc: howdy
2020-09-17T03:46:28Z beach: Hello iissaacc.
2020-09-17T03:46:44Z iissaacc: hows it beach
2020-09-17T03:49:21Z beach: Not bad.  Yesterday afternoon (UTC+2) I figured out why my definition of COMPILE in the last bootstrapping environment of SICL got into an infinite computation.  I stupidly added a method to ALLOCATE-INSTANCE which meant that its discriminating function had to be recomputed.  But doing that involves calling COMPILE and COMPILE allocates a code object, so it calls ALLOCATE-INSTANCE.  TADA!
2020-09-17T03:50:26Z beach: So today, my mission is to remove that method, redefine COMPILE, re-run the bootstrapping procedure, and see how many problems get fixed.
2020-09-17T03:50:32Z beach: iissaacc: What about you?
2020-09-17T03:50:50Z iissaacc: its always like that aye.. you cruise thru the stuff you think will be hard and then get caught up for ages on some mistake
2020-09-17T03:51:36Z iissaacc: well just chipping away at phd applications and coding up some historical linguistics stuff in common lisp
2020-09-17T03:52:24Z beach: CLOS with its meta-circularity is prone to metastability problems.  But I know how to deal with them.  It is just that my debugging tools are not available in their full power yet.
2020-09-17T03:52:26Z iissaacc: did an automatic phylo classification of some austronesian data using the naive approach, edit distance and unweighted pair group
2020-09-17T03:52:56Z iissaacc: its not a very good approach but its still cool how well it does work
2020-09-17T03:53:14Z beach: Sounds good.
2020-09-17T03:53:24Z iissaacc: easier to write than python in lisp and FASTER
2020-09-17T03:53:36Z iissaacc: and lparallel makes it super simple to make it even faser
2020-09-17T03:53:57Z iissaacc: god this is a great language
2020-09-17T03:54:32Z aeth: the internet is for complaining, not for being happy
2020-09-17T03:55:44Z iissaacc: haha not that i dont love complaining
2020-09-17T03:56:05Z no-defun-allowed: I would say something about fun, but you can probably guess what.
2020-09-17T03:56:54Z aeth: don't worry, software projects will bloat to the level of complexity just beyond what you can handle, so if something is simple that just means your project's scope will grow. :-p
2020-09-17T03:57:53Z iissaacc: ^ quite likely, I'm gonna try implement every bioinformatics thing that could be useful for linguistics now
2020-09-17T04:01:28Z no-defun-allowed: Well, if your program is embarrassingly parallel (you can basically process everything independently), then the parallelisation part isn't going to get much harder.
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2020-09-17T04:02:30Z no-defun-allowed: If not, well, just remember that it's hard to implement parallelism worse than Python.
2020-09-17T04:03:22Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: the hardest part of parallelism is affording the CPUs.
2020-09-17T04:04:00Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: hey its me ur sister can I borrow a threadripper 3990x
2020-09-17T04:05:25Z iissaacc: depends on the algorithm it seems. the clustering one i used each iteration depends on the state produced by the last, and i cant see how to parallelise it in a meaningful way. i dont have any computer science education tho so there may be a solution
2020-09-17T04:05:38Z iissaacc: ill do some digging
2020-09-17T04:06:17Z no-defun-allowed: What kind of clustering are you doing? It might be possible to parallelise an iteration, it might not be.
2020-09-17T04:07:01Z iissaacc: unwieghted pair group on a distance matrix
2020-09-17T04:07:22Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: https://www.pcgamer.com/this-portable-threadripper-pc-gives-new-meaning-to-the-term-desktop-replacement/
2020-09-17T04:09:13Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, searching "parallel UPGMA" brings up someone's paper about an implementation on a GPU, so it's possible, but I wouldn't know how.
2020-09-17T04:09:28Z no-defun-allowed: But that does remind me of building a Huffman tree.
2020-09-17T04:10:21Z iissaacc: according to wiki i can reduce the complexity to n^2 log n by using a heap to store the cluster distances
2020-09-17T04:10:41Z iissaacc: thats probably good enough. there are only so many languages in the world
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2020-09-17T04:11:39Z iissaacc: i can parallelise the matrix construction
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2020-09-17T05:45:47Z moon-child: is it possible to serialize functions (including environment/closure if possible)?
2020-09-17T05:46:31Z no-defun-allowed: You could use function-lambda-expression to get the name of a function if it would have one, but usually no.
2020-09-17T05:51:19Z moon-child: ah, interesting.  It looks like in sbcl that can give me the body of a function, but not the values it closes over
2020-09-17T05:53:06Z no-defun-allowed: No, you won't get the environment by any portable means.
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2020-09-17T05:55:56Z moon-child: nonportable is ok
2020-09-17T05:57:00Z no-defun-allowed: And I don't know what kind of representation SBCL uses for the environment.
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2020-09-17T06:02:03Z beach: It's another example of the problems created by the separation of primary and secondary memory that Unix adopted, and that we suffer from ever since.
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2020-09-17T06:04:56Z moon-child: beach: I agree that the distinction between volatile and persistent memory was a mistake, but that's not my problem in this case.  My main interest is not in storing the function persistently, but comparing it
2020-09-17T06:05:11Z beach: I see.
2020-09-17T06:05:29Z beach: Then you can compare the disassembly, no?
2020-09-17T06:05:45Z beach: That's just text.
2020-09-17T06:06:13Z moon-child: hmm
2020-09-17T06:07:02Z moon-child: I think that would work
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2020-09-17T06:13:57Z HiRE_: wouldn't comparing the diassembly be only half the solution though.Two functions could have the exact same behavior and performance but marginally different disassembly due to compiler flavor right?
2020-09-17T06:14:40Z beach: HiRE_: That would be the same problem for any serialization scheme.  Plus, it is not possible to compare functions for identical behavior.
2020-09-17T06:14:50Z HiRE_: that's true
2020-09-17T06:14:51Z beach: HiRE_: It is known as an undecidable problem.
2020-09-17T06:15:19Z HiRE_: I suppose it at least on the surface reducible to the halting problem
2020-09-17T06:15:23Z HiRE_: it appears*
2020-09-17T06:15:36Z moon-child: HiRE_: that's fine.  If I can prove that two functions are equivalent, I can avoid some extra computation, but not a big deal to repeat it
2020-09-17T06:15:44Z beach: That is basically what "undecidable" means.
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2020-09-17T06:16:53Z HiRE_: tbh I've only ever used serialization for data never functions.
2020-09-17T06:16:56Z HiRE_: what an interesting problem
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2020-09-17T06:17:20Z HiRE_: depending on how fast and loose you play it you could just send the smallest thing that gives the same output for a given input.
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2020-09-17T06:17:42Z HiRE_: (also inb4 obligatory functions ARE data - yes thank you I know :P)
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2020-09-17T06:20:11Z moon-child: HiRE_: the mathematical definition of function equality is: f and g are equivalent iff, for any expression containing a hole, the halt-status of the expression is the same for f and g
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2020-09-17T06:20:38Z moon-child: so it's necessarily at least as hard as the halting problem
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2020-09-17T06:24:19Z HiRE_: to be honest I wish I knew more about this. We got tastes of computatbility theory in graduate compilers/automata but the school refuses to run an actual class on it.
2020-09-17T06:24:35Z HiRE_: to busy filling the roster with big data/machine learning
2020-09-17T06:24:39Z HiRE_: too*
2020-09-17T06:25:17Z moon-child: don't have a ton of formal background either (and wish I had more...)
2020-09-17T06:25:26Z moon-child: I got that definition from this talk https://youtu.be/43XaZEn2aLc
2020-09-17T06:26:11Z no-defun-allowed: In my course, the "algebra and linear codes" course has models of computation; starting with DFAs, push down automata, then eventually Turing machines.
2020-09-17T06:26:46Z HiRE_: yeah that course is what we call automata at my school.
2020-09-17T06:26:56Z HiRE_: pre-req for compilers.
2020-09-17T06:27:55Z HiRE_: tbh "algebra and linear codes" sounds way better than "automata theory" maybe i'll suggest that instead lol
2020-09-17T06:29:33Z no-defun-allowed: Someone told me it was a very weird name, if it has the theoretical computer science stuff. And linear codes are a completely different topic.
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2020-09-17T07:28:56Z markasoftware: With ASDF, how do I set the output location for an operation? Namely, I want it to put the output of program-op at a certain path
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2020-09-17T08:00:35Z phoe: AFAIK there is no ASDF-centric way of doing that
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2020-09-17T08:04:16Z markasoftware: if a program uses FFI, then the lisp image is dumped (eg, sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die), how does it link upon restoring?
2020-09-17T08:05:26Z phoe: in general, you need to close all shared libraries before dumping and reopen all shared libraries after thawing
2020-09-17T08:05:34Z phoe: Shinmera's Deploy tries to automate that process
2020-09-17T08:06:09Z markasoftware: how come hunchentoot works with just uiop:dump-image? I don't know how it uses ffi but i know that cffi is a dependency at some level
2020-09-17T08:06:21Z phoe: hunchentoot doesn't use FFI on its own
2020-09-17T08:06:25Z phoe: perhaps only for cl+ssl
2020-09-17T08:06:48Z markasoftware: Oh, nice. And usockets doesn't require it?
2020-09-17T08:07:22Z markasoftware: i see it does not
2020-09-17T08:07:24Z markasoftware: thank you!
2020-09-17T08:07:34Z phoe: usocket is another layer
2020-09-17T08:07:40Z phoe: it does not require any FFI
2020-09-17T08:07:59Z no-defun-allowed: usocket on SBCL will FFI in sb-bsd-sockets to the BSD socket library, but that's provided by Un*x systems already.
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2020-09-17T08:14:12Z scymtym: SBCL will re-dlopen() shared objects that the user code does not explicitly close. so resuming on the same system (without a system upgrade in between or similar) will usually result in foreign libraries (not file descriptors, foreign data, etc) continuing to work
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2020-09-17T08:20:42Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: that happens behind the scenes though, it's not handled directly via CFFI
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2020-09-17T08:21:53Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, usocket doesn't FFI directly, some library the implementation provides does the FFI-ing for it (but in the case of sb-bsd-sockets, SBCL's FFI is used and not CFFI).
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2020-09-17T12:50:47Z Plazma: morning folks
2020-09-17T12:51:28Z Josh_2: Afternoon Plazma
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2020-09-17T12:55:28Z beach: Hello Plazma.
2020-09-17T12:55:30Z Plazma: hey Josh_2 beach
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2020-09-17T13:55:18Z drl: I get the following error while trying to compile the git (development version) of stumpwm: 'Symbol "RR-GET-OUTPUT-INFO" not found in the XLIB package. ' Updating quicklisp did not fix this. What am I doing wrong?
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2020-09-17T13:57:36Z SaganMan: Morning!
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2020-09-17T13:57:42Z beach: drl: You might want to ask in #clim.  They know a lot about CLX.
2020-09-17T13:57:48Z beach: Hello SaganMan.
2020-09-17T13:58:05Z SaganMan: Hello beach. How are you? How is your research going?
2020-09-17T13:59:10Z drl: beach, Thanks. Will do.
2020-09-17T13:59:13Z beach: Fine.  I am still working on SICL bootstrapping.  I need to integrate the generic sequence functions that heisig wrote.  They use his library for fast generic functions.
2020-09-17T13:59:25Z Bike: drl: there is also #stumpwm.
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2020-09-17T13:59:40Z Bike: oh, you're there already. excuse me.
2020-09-17T13:59:44Z beach: SaganMan: What about you?
2020-09-17T13:59:51Z SaganMan: nice beach, you were working on same thing last time right?
2020-09-17T14:00:01Z beach: Probably.
2020-09-17T14:00:25Z SaganMan: beach: I'm okay. Covid is out of control here so self qurantined
2020-09-17T14:01:02Z beach: I see, yes.
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2020-09-17T14:34:41Z m_v_m: Hi. How I can import a package to my project without name conflicts? For example 3rd party package has function "get" which is in conflict with "common-lisp:get"?
2020-09-17T14:35:36Z jmercouris: anyone have experience firing off something 'async' using parenscript?
2020-09-17T14:35:53Z jmercouris: I'm not looking to await a promise, I just want something to fire off, and my function to return
2020-09-17T14:36:19Z jmercouris: example: I have function A, which calls function B. I would like function A to return without function B having to terminate
2020-09-17T14:37:38Z Bike: can you make a promise and then ignore it?
2020-09-17T14:38:03Z jmercouris: that's what I'm trying to figure out
2020-09-17T14:38:22Z Bike: or maybe you want this async function thing
2020-09-17T14:38:29Z jmercouris: I just want the side effect my function produces, not its return value
2020-09-17T14:38:31Z Bike: anyway, it's probably more about javascript than parenscript
2020-09-17T14:38:40Z jmercouris: fair enough, I will ask in javascript channel
2020-09-17T14:39:10Z jmercouris: I wonder how I can (defun async with ps still)
2020-09-17T14:39:22Z Bike: good question.
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2020-09-17T14:39:50Z jmercouris: (ps:ps (async defun () "fish"))
2020-09-17T14:39:57Z jmercouris: "async(defun, null, 'fish');"
2020-09-17T14:40:01Z jmercouris: not exactly what we are looking for
2020-09-17T14:40:24Z Bike: https://gist.github.com/ralt/57a3811ca7ed734295e87393b9964cbe guessing it's not in mainline.
2020-09-17T14:40:42Z beach: m_v_m: I recommend you don't :USE packages other than the COMMON-LISP package.
2020-09-17T14:40:47Z jmercouris: son of a potato
2020-09-17T14:40:52Z jmercouris: every day I grow closer to my own quicklisp dist
2020-09-17T14:40:56Z jmercouris: thanks for the link Bike
2020-09-17T14:41:12Z beach: m_v_m: Either use full package prefixes, or use a package-local nickname for it.
2020-09-17T14:42:06Z Bike: you could ask, uh... whoever maintains parenscript. i got no idea
2020-09-17T14:42:14Z Bike: probably best to figure out the javascript for what you want to do first, though
2020-09-17T14:44:08Z jmercouris: yes, I will try this patch and see if it will resolve what I am doing
2020-09-17T14:44:13Z jmercouris: and then see if I can get this merged into parenscript
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2020-09-17T14:45:00Z m_v_m: beach: so how I can import 3rd party package into my package when I should not use :use?
2020-09-17T14:48:38Z jmercouris: m_v_m: he literally just said it
2020-09-17T14:48:45Z jmercouris: either use FULL package prefixes, or use a package-local nickname
2020-09-17T14:48:57Z jmercouris: so if I want to use package salmon, I can say salmon:function
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2020-09-17T14:49:06Z jmercouris: or I can give it a nickname, like "s" for convenience and say
2020-09-17T14:49:08Z jmercouris: s:function
2020-09-17T14:49:22Z sjl_: or :import-from with an explicit list of symbols
2020-09-17T14:49:28Z jmercouris: yeah, that too
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2020-09-17T14:51:39Z shka_: jmercouris: i have a slightly different approach then beach
2020-09-17T14:52:11Z jmercouris: I see
2020-09-17T14:52:17Z jmercouris: s/then/than :-)
2020-09-17T14:52:22Z jmercouris: and what is your approach?
2020-09-17T14:52:56Z shka_: i use a little bit of mixed back of utility library, and what i do is to create a single, separate package and import stuff from alexandria and serapeum (that i use) into that, then reexport all of the symbols
2020-09-17T14:53:21Z shka_: however i do this only for utility library
2020-09-17T14:53:23Z jmercouris: so you use a package of your own so that you can just :use whenever you want?
2020-09-17T14:53:28Z jmercouris: that's an interesting approach
2020-09-17T14:53:30Z shka_: yeah
2020-09-17T14:53:55Z shka_: and if symbol disappears from the package, i get reader error during compilation
2020-09-17T14:53:56Z jmercouris: for most people, unless they are also creating a library as part of their project, this is probably not necessary
2020-09-17T14:54:00Z jmercouris: but it is a really cool trick
2020-09-17T14:54:24Z shka_: and if anything different shows up in the library, i don't import it until i need that symbol
2020-09-17T14:54:44Z shka_: for everything else, i think that local nicknames are de facto portable nowdays
2020-09-17T14:54:49Z phoe: they are
2020-09-17T14:54:58Z phoe: with the exception of CLISP, which is unmaintained
2020-09-17T14:55:19Z shka_: so, yeah, for everything else, if package has long name, just use local-nickname
2020-09-17T14:55:24Z shka_: hell
2020-09-17T14:55:34Z phoe: s/if package has long name, //
2020-09-17T14:55:36Z phoe: :)
2020-09-17T14:55:53Z shka_: also, the most important rule
2020-09-17T14:56:07Z shka_: NEVER :use your own packages
2020-09-17T14:56:14Z jmercouris: DUN DUN DUNNN
2020-09-17T14:56:15Z jmercouris: why?
2020-09-17T14:56:42Z shka_: because it is why easier to debug reader error after you deleted something than a runtime error
2020-09-17T14:56:52Z jmercouris: hm, yes
2020-09-17T14:57:27Z shka_: the only packages i use is :cl and my aux package i described before
2020-09-17T14:58:11Z shka_: so far, it works well
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2020-09-17T14:59:02Z shka_: i guess this is 99% of what beach is saying
2020-09-17T14:59:25Z shka_: oh, and i also think that global package nicknames is something that should be avoided
2020-09-17T14:59:56Z mseddon: is it possible to coax sbcl+slime so I can step over every single expression? currently all I can do is hit (break) forms.
2020-09-17T15:00:00Z phoe: global nicknames should be avoided in 99.9% of all cases since PLNs essentially obsolete them
2020-09-17T15:00:06Z shka_: mseddon: yes
2020-09-17T15:00:11Z jmercouris: mseddon: kind-of
2020-09-17T15:00:12Z phoe: mseddon: see SBCL manual for making code steppable
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2020-09-17T15:00:22Z jmercouris: though I do not believe you can step CFFI
2020-09-17T15:00:25Z mseddon: right, thanks phoe!
2020-09-17T15:00:36Z shka_: mseddon: debug 3, speed 0, safety 0 and press s when in the debugger
2020-09-17T15:00:45Z shka_: here, the gist of it :P
2020-09-17T15:00:51Z phoe: jmercouris: why not? if you compile it in a way where it's steppable, then you can step it
2020-09-17T15:00:52Z shka_: safety 3
2020-09-17T15:00:58Z mseddon: shka_: yes, I have already done that. but it's not working apparently.
2020-09-17T15:01:03Z shka_: oooh, ok
2020-09-17T15:01:04Z jmercouris: phoe: from SLDB? will you not need to use GDB or something?
2020-09-17T15:01:12Z phoe: wait, SLDB?
2020-09-17T15:01:14Z mseddon: shka_: I have a (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3)))
2020-09-17T15:01:18Z phoe: you'll likely not going to step into foreign functions
2020-09-17T15:01:20Z jmercouris: s/sldb/slime
2020-09-17T15:01:23Z phoe: we're talking about Lisp world now
2020-09-17T15:01:25Z shka_: mseddon: ok, i see
2020-09-17T15:01:31Z shka_: it worked for me so far
2020-09-17T15:01:32Z mseddon: phoe: i'm not that fussy, I just want to step regular, ANSI lisp
2020-09-17T15:01:38Z jmercouris: then you are fine
2020-09-17T15:01:43Z jmercouris: I was talking about stepping the corresponding C code
2020-09-17T15:01:51Z jmercouris: for some function call INTO C
2020-09-17T15:01:56Z mseddon: great. yeah I think my setup is just hosed at the moment, but I wanted to check it was possible
2020-09-17T15:02:00Z mseddon: thanks all
2020-09-17T15:02:18Z Bike: i suppose there's no reason the implementation debugger couldn't know about object file debug formats
2020-09-17T15:02:20Z jmercouris: I can confirm that the snippet posted by ralt works
2020-09-17T15:02:24Z Bike: don't think any of them actually do, though
2020-09-17T15:02:41Z phoe: Bike: you mean that they could implement stepping in C code called from Lisp?
2020-09-17T15:02:49Z phoe: that's a crazy idea, I like that
2020-09-17T15:02:53Z Bike: sure, why not?
2020-09-17T15:03:00Z mseddon: yeah. gimme. I want that too. :)
2020-09-17T15:03:04Z Bike: assuming the c code was compiled with enough debug info, of course
2020-09-17T15:03:05Z jmercouris: at least put my name in the credits or something
2020-09-17T15:03:22Z Bike: i've worked with dwarf a fair bit already, so i volunteer for not doing t his
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2020-09-17T15:07:59Z phoe: that sounds like working with implementations themselves
2020-09-17T15:08:03Z phoe: in particular, SBCL, I guess
2020-09-17T15:08:14Z phoe: that's because working with the CCL stepper is a real pleasure
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2020-09-17T15:08:36Z mseddon: phoe: ah, I have not tried CCL, I will give it a whirl, thanks.
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2020-09-17T15:08:48Z Bike: well, yeah, you'd be sprucing up the debugger
2020-09-17T15:08:53Z phoe: mseddon: you shouldn't
2020-09-17T15:09:00Z mseddon: uh oh :)
2020-09-17T15:09:01Z Bike: clasp's debugger does actually know dwarf already, but we don't have a stepper
2020-09-17T15:09:23Z jmercouris: I like CCL, I advice you give it a whirl
2020-09-17T15:09:24Z phoe: working with the CCL stepper is a real pleasure because I forgot the /s at the end of my post
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2020-09-17T15:09:41Z jmercouris: not because of the debugger though :-D
2020-09-17T15:09:43Z phoe: and you actually get to implement a stepper before you can call a stepper
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2020-09-17T15:13:20Z beach: m_v_m: Did you understand the answer(s)?
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2020-09-17T15:16:21Z m_v_m: Yes. The problem is that even if I am using local-nicknames i still have conflict. This is a piece of my code: https://pastebin.com/2CQK8gRT lisp is still finding conflict on leveldb.write (but not leveldb.get)
2020-09-17T15:16:41Z phoe:  wait
2020-09-17T15:17:11Z phoe: conflicts on which symbols from which packages?
2020-09-17T15:17:13Z beach: m_v_m: You :USE more than the CL package here.
2020-09-17T15:17:15Z phoe: you use a ton of stuff
2020-09-17T15:17:32Z m_v_m: this is only a tamplate from caveman2
2020-09-17T15:17:52Z beach: Don't use the template from caveman2 if it :USEs more than the CL package.
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2020-09-17T15:18:08Z beach: m_v_m: The advice is to :USE only the CL package.
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2020-09-17T15:18:46Z beach: Not caveman2, staatos.config, statos.view, stratos.db, datafly, sxql
2020-09-17T15:18:53Z beach: stratos, sorry.
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2020-09-17T15:19:40Z beach: And the package-local nicknames are for packages, not for individual symbols.
2020-09-17T15:19:56Z beach: Oh, maybe they are packages.
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2020-09-17T15:20:08Z m_v_m: yes. They are
2020-09-17T15:20:32Z beach: But it is your :USE of all those packages that gives you conflicts.
2020-09-17T15:21:01Z jmercouris: the default caveman template is a real piece of work
2020-09-17T15:21:09Z jmercouris: every time I make a new project I spend half an hour fixing things up and moving them around
2020-09-17T15:21:17Z beach: This is Fukamachiware right?
2020-09-17T15:21:26Z jmercouris: yes, it is
2020-09-17T15:21:28Z phoe: afaik yes
2020-09-17T15:21:29Z jmercouris: the library itself is quite nice to use
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2020-09-17T15:22:50Z m_v_m: To be honest...I really don't know what I can do with it. I cannot remove all of those packages from :use. I can not use leveldb in the reasons of conflicts. Caveman2 is not perfect but it is the easiest and nicest thing in a web lisp.
2020-09-17T15:23:13Z beach: Why can you not remove all those packages from the :USE list?
2020-09-17T15:24:06Z shka_: m_v_m: you are using names, not the systems
2020-09-17T15:24:09Z phoe: ^
2020-09-17T15:24:25Z phoe: why do you need to keep them in :USE
2020-09-17T15:24:45Z beach: Whenever you want to use a symbol from the leveldp package, say LEVELDB:WRITE rather than just WRITE.  What is the problem with that?
2020-09-17T15:24:45Z shka_: in other words, you still can depend on those systems, and packages they provide, you will just have to type more to use those ;-)
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2020-09-17T15:25:08Z phoe: or use PLNs
2020-09-17T15:25:13Z jmercouris: PLN = package local nickname
2020-09-17T15:25:35Z beach: Yeah, like LDB:WRITE for example.
2020-09-17T15:26:10Z beach: m_v_m: Using explicit package prefixes makes your code much more clear too.  A person reading your code immediately knows where the symbol is coming from.
2020-09-17T15:27:32Z m_v_m: this is maybe a stupid question but how to import leveldb to use leveldb:write(sth) ?
2020-09-17T15:27:49Z beach: m_v_m: Ah, so maybe you think that :USE is necessary in order to use the function in that package.
2020-09-17T15:27:58Z beach: You are confusing packages and systems.
2020-09-17T15:28:32Z beach: You make the system available by the :DEPENDS-ON in your ASDF system definition.
2020-09-17T15:29:18Z beach: Then the package will exist and can be used.  The :USE clause of DEFPACKAGE merely imports all the external symbols in an already existing package.
2020-09-17T15:29:38Z m_v_m: ooooh
2020-09-17T15:29:59Z beach: The conflict happens when you import two or more symbols with the same name with different home packages.
2020-09-17T15:29:59Z sjl_ feels like :use should have been called :import-all
2020-09-17T15:31:11Z m_v_m: Now I see. So I don't need to do anything with leveldb. Thank you. Now it is clear :)
2020-09-17T15:31:27Z beach: Pleasure.
2020-09-17T15:31:29Z shka_: m_v_m: http://index-of.es/Programming/Lisp/Lisp%20Mess/Erann%20Gat%20-%20Idiots%20Guide%20To%20Lisp%20Packages.pdf
2020-09-17T15:31:53Z beach never reads anything that claims to be written for idiots. 
2020-09-17T15:31:57Z shka_: m_v_m: you are not the first with the same misconception
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2020-09-17T15:32:40Z Bike: the package use mechanism is actually distinct from importation, though i don't think the difference matters in this particular instance
2020-09-17T15:33:06Z Bike: so :import-all wouldn't be good
2020-09-17T15:33:12Z beach: True 'dat.
2020-09-17T15:33:23Z Bike: the package system confuses me.
2020-09-17T15:33:37Z beach: Bah, try to implement it, and you will see. :)
2020-09-17T15:34:03Z Bike: (example of the difference: if the used package later exports another symbol, the user package has access to that symbol without further imports)
2020-09-17T15:34:05Z beach: I think it is merely inadequately documented.
2020-09-17T15:34:32Z beach: Indeed.
2020-09-17T15:37:32Z Bike: i prefer local nicknames, anyway. glad they're widely supported now
2020-09-17T15:37:44Z shka_: beach: well, now i know how to hide something from you ;-)
2020-09-17T15:40:25Z beach: Avoid documenting it?
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2020-09-17T15:43:09Z shka_: beach: just label it "for idiots"
2020-09-17T15:43:20Z beach: Ah, yes, easy!
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2020-09-18T02:50:24Z markasoftware: Why is enough-namestring not enough-pathname? Why can't it just return a pathname with a relative directory?
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2020-09-18T03:12:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-18T04:14:01Z contrapunctus: Morning beach
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2020-09-18T04:18:21Z borei: good morning/good afternoon !
2020-09-18T04:19:31Z contrapunctus: So I was just wondering how it's sometimes difficult in Emacs (or any long-running system) to go back to a previous state without restarting. And perhaps one way of doing that could be to serialize the state (or just the changes) each time something changes, and rollback to the desired state. Would this be possible to do for a CL program, ideally in an implementation-portable way?
2020-09-18T04:21:07Z beach: Depending on what kind of state changes you want to roll back, that could be very tricky.
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2020-09-18T04:21:32Z no-defun-allowed: I had previously written an implementation of "worlds" which are a kind of software transactional memory, allowing one to encapsulate changes to objects in worlds, which would only be visible from them (until committed). But that is slow, and would require everything to use the metaclass that makes it work.
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2020-09-18T04:26:03Z no-defun-allowed: Bar the huge slowdown, you could make that work if the environment was in a world, and if you could revert a world's changes.
2020-09-18T04:26:26Z contrapunctus: beach: why's that? Also, Smalltalks do something like this, right? 🤔
2020-09-18T04:27:20Z no-defun-allowed: From what I read on Smalltalk, not really. Smalltalk logs the changes you make, but you have to re-apply those selectively in a new image to "roll back".
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2020-09-18T04:27:56Z no-defun-allowed: And neither is any good for changes to the external world (like file system, sockets, etc).
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2020-09-18T04:29:10Z beach: contrapunctus: The semantics are defined in terms of global side effects.  That makes everything hard.
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2020-09-18T04:52:54Z borei: hmm, i have question about "proper tools usage", i know that there is no direct answer for such question, and in most cases it is "up to you", but still. So, lisp conditional system, first impression was that it's pretty complicated system, using several "ifs" and return code all my problems can be solved. But as a learning part i decided to try it, and found it so powerful, that not only exception/error handling can be implemented in very
2020-09-18T04:52:55Z borei:  flexible way, but also logging functionality can be added. On the flip side, going further and using such approach, i afraid that my program will turn into monster.
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2020-09-18T04:56:10Z moon-child: borei: you can frequently use 'cond' in place of 'several "ifs"'
2020-09-18T04:56:28Z borei: yep yep
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2020-09-18T04:58:17Z borei: question is a bit more fundamental - is lisp conditional system a proper tool to implement logging functionality, or it's too much.
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2020-09-18T05:00:31Z no-defun-allowed: Using weird return codes is a good way to blow your foot off, so you definitely should use conditions instead. Using SIGNAL to tell a logging library that calls into your code wouldn't be a bad idea though.
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2020-09-18T05:00:51Z borei: i got to such question, because when you are intercepting error or exception, and when you are handling it - it's pretty useful to generate some log information about what happen, developing that idea a bit further - not only error conditions can generate logs, but also normal workflow.
2020-09-18T05:10:40Z borei: no-defun-allowed: im thinking about it, but will it be too expensive from performance standpoint, and will it be too bulky from the code standpoint. Generate signal - not a big problem, there should be handlers to catch and process that signal - that part im not comfortable with, don't know why.
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2020-09-18T05:11:24Z no-defun-allowed: What would the performance of the logging library look like?
2020-09-18T05:11:34Z no-defun-allowed: Writing to a terminal or file isn't free either.
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2020-09-18T05:12:44Z borei: true
2020-09-18T05:22:58Z borei: logging something like https://pastebin.com/4KzQQZGv
2020-09-18T05:23:30Z borei: conf-get-failure - eventually can log to arbitrary destination
2020-09-18T05:24:04Z no-defun-allowed: If you use SIGNAL instead of ERROR, you do not have to wrap the logging code in a RESTART-CASE (as it won't force non-local transfer of control).
2020-09-18T05:24:14Z borei: yep yep
2020-09-18T05:24:21Z borei: just wanted to say it
2020-09-18T05:25:13Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, also, you could reproduce the effects by replacing (SIGNAL ... :MESSAGE m) with (FUNCALL *LOGGER* m) and the HANDLER-BIND with (LET ((*LOGGER* <function>)) ...), which wouldn't have to search for a handler and would thus be faster (and more direct).
2020-09-18T05:26:00Z borei: that is gonna be next step for me - optimization.
2020-09-18T05:26:46Z no-defun-allowed: Using a dynamic variable would be more to the point about what you're doing.
2020-09-18T05:26:55Z borei: im trying to understand if that implementation make sense, or it's example of "how not to do" because of luck of knowledge
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2020-09-18T05:33:47Z beach: Wow, Robert C Martin (a.k.a. Uncle Bob) gave a keynote speech (somewhere) called "The Last Programming Language" available on YouTube.  It is filled with arguments in favor of Common Lisp.  He chooses Clojure in the end, but almost all of the arguments are valid for Common Lisp as well.  Automatic memory management, homoiconicity, multi paradigm, etc.
2020-09-18T05:33:48Z beach: He is a bit goofy, but I have decided he knows what he is talking about, and that the goofiness is only hist presentation style.
2020-09-18T05:34:42Z beach: s/hist/his/
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2020-09-18T05:36:19Z beach: He also talks about Emacs, and he thinks its inherent power (that he credits to Lisp) will ultimately make it more powerful than the IDEs that he uses and knows very well, mainly for Java, I would think.
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2020-09-18T05:39:58Z beach: I only realized fairly recently that "Uncle Bob" is not just a fad-pushing, self-proclaimed, buffoon guru, but that he actually knows what he is talking about.  Given his authority, combined with his conviction about the power of Lisp (and his willingness to talk openly about it), things might actually move in the right direction.
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2020-09-18T11:32:12Z ldb: good evening
2020-09-18T11:32:39Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ldb
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2020-09-18T11:37:09Z ldb: what is the least space usage for, say, generate a stream of a permutation of numbers from 0 to 2,100,000,000 using a given PRNG
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2020-09-18T11:40:16Z ldb: i think the works case is having a sparse array holding half of 1 trillion entries
2020-09-18T11:40:38Z ldb: *worst
2020-09-18T11:41:42Z ldb: which means swapping/mmaping to the filesystem is usually required
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2020-09-18T11:54:13Z contrapunctus: beach: "the material we manipulate [...] is virtually the same!" ...flashback of this other talk I was watching the other day - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdSD07U5uBs&t=1168
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2020-09-18T12:17:08Z beach: contrapunctus: Yes, I see.
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2020-09-18T13:00:21Z Josh_2: Afternoon
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2020-09-18T17:08:36Z ebzzry: Has somebody built SBCL 2.0.8 for Windows?
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2020-09-18T17:12:33Z beach: You mean there are still people using Windows?  Amazing!
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2020-09-18T17:17:34Z ebzzry: beach: Yup—customers!
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2020-09-18T17:34:55Z beach: :(
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2020-09-18T17:43:56Z Inline: huh ?
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2020-09-18T18:06:40Z mseddon: beach: Sadly I need to write Direct3D code from time to time. No Windows, no D3D.
2020-09-18T18:09:16Z ebzzry: SBCL 2.0.8 doesn’t compile on Windows, right?
2020-09-18T18:09:50Z mseddon: ebzzry: I have never tried, I use their redistributables, or just host it in WSL
2020-09-18T18:10:14Z mseddon: (the latter is handy in conjuction with an x-client if you want to do CLIM etc, but not a viable distribution mechanism of course)
2020-09-18T18:10:54Z mseddon: I would perhaps ask in #sbcl
2020-09-18T18:11:05Z ebzzry: I will.
2020-09-18T18:11:36Z ebzzry: WSL can indeed launch exes produced by SBCL.
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2020-09-18T18:13:04Z mseddon: ebzzry: if you haven't already, windows terminal is particularly nice, too. it lets you open tabs into any WSL instances you have installed, as well as powershell etc, so thats nice.
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2020-09-18T18:14:59Z ebzzry: mseddon: thanks. it's a server app that listens to requests. i did a 'wsl -e program' and it was able to respond properly. i wonder if there's going to be a significant performance hit.
2020-09-18T18:15:31Z mseddon: ebzzry: WSL is actually pretty good for that in my experience, but it would be insane to run that in production, of course.
2020-09-18T18:16:10Z ebzzry: mseddon: why is it insane?
2020-09-18T18:16:33Z jackdaniel: offtopic buzzer rings
2020-09-18T18:16:34Z mseddon: ebzzry: well, if you needed linux, just start with a docker image in the first place.
2020-09-18T18:16:40Z mseddon: indeed.
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2020-09-18T18:19:27Z mathrick: borei: conditions are kind of a misfit for logging, since in a logger, you want to know that things will be seen and recorded where you expect them to. The thing about SIGNAL though is that it will search, starting from the innermost scope, for someone to handle it, and the handler can in principle do something to stop the propagation
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2020-09-18T18:32:20Z mathrick: borei: conditions are, in essence, the most generic and least coordinated protocol you can have in the language. It is also by necessity not the most efficient one for almost any single thing you apple it to. But since you know your domain and your requirements in a logger, establishing a custom protocol that's more aligned with your requirements is generally better
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2020-09-18T18:37:43Z mseddon: e.g. :before method qualifiers are also extremely handy.
2020-09-18T18:47:00Z Inline: huh ?
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2020-09-18T19:02:59Z mseddon: "file-string-length returns the difference between what (file-position stream) would be after writing object and its current value, or nil if this cannot be determined." - is this assuming as if by write, using the pretty printer? the spec is not clear to me here.
2020-09-18T19:03:43Z mseddon: (i.e. respecting all printer special variables, which may include behaviour of *pretty-print*, and the various others if enabled)
2020-09-18T19:05:33Z luis: mseddon: since the object is restricted to a string or a character it doesn't seem like the pretty printer would be involved.
2020-09-18T19:05:47Z mseddon: luis: oh! doh, right. Thanks, I missed that.
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2020-09-18T19:19:58Z mseddon: btw, there used to be #lisp-gardeners decades ago, where I could post snippets of code to review, is there a good place for me to do that now?
2020-09-18T19:20:18Z mseddon: I'm still feeling a little klunky, it's been quite a while.
2020-09-18T19:21:40Z mseddon: ideally I'd ask https://codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/lisp but I have no idea how many people look there.
2020-09-18T19:31:30Z aeth: mseddon: #clschool is kind of like that.
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2020-09-18T19:33:42Z dlowe: yeah, #clschool would be happy to take a look at it
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2020-09-18T19:46:38Z mseddon: brilliant, thanks!
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2020-09-18T23:54:24Z markasoftware: when i define a writer using :writer in defclass, is it possible for me to specialize the writer method?
2020-09-18T23:54:41Z markasoftware: sorry, I mean with an accessor, not a writer
2020-09-18T23:54:47Z markasoftware: with a writer it would be simple
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2020-09-18T23:56:51Z _death: you can use :reader in the defclass and (defmethod (setf thing) (new-value (instance the-class)) ...)
2020-09-19T00:00:21Z markasoftware: where is (defun (setf blap) ...) documented in CLHS? I'm having trouble finding info about anything other than defsetf and define-setf-expansion
2020-09-19T00:00:39Z markasoftware: or are these "setf functions" just normal functions, and have to be called from inside define-setf-expansion?
2020-09-19T00:00:50Z no-defun-allowed: (setf ...) is just another kind of function name; I don't know where it's documented but it's not too special.
2020-09-19T00:01:42Z markasoftware: So if I define a (setf ...) function (not on an accessor, just a fresh name), it will not affect the operation of the setf macro in any way?
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2020-09-19T00:03:51Z _death: clhs 5.1.2.9
2020-09-19T00:03:51Z specbot: Other Compound Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abi.htm
2020-09-19T00:03:52Z no-defun-allowed: (setf (foo ...) v) expands to (funcall #'(setf foo) v ...) if (setf foo) is defined from memory.
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2020-09-19T00:04:41Z markasoftware: that seems right based on some playing around in the repl, no-defun-allowed, except it expands like that even if (setf foo) is not defined, triggering an undefined function error
2020-09-19T00:05:01Z markasoftware: oh thanks _death, exactly what i needed
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2020-09-19T03:32:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-19T04:44:19Z ajithmk_: I cloned sbcl source from github to a location /media/ajith/Lindows/sbcl-exp/. And I ran sh make.sh --prefix=/opt/mysbcl1. After a few minutes, terminal notified me that the build seems to have finished successfully. Except that, I don't see mysbcl1 in /opt. Turned out that files like /output/sbcl.core and /src/runtime/sbcl are created in the cloned location itself. I am wondering if it ignored my --prefix there. Any
2020-09-19T04:44:19Z ajithmk_: sbcl devs here can make sense of what happened here?
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2020-09-19T04:51:01Z edgar-rft: ajithmk_: if I remember right there is an install.sh script that will copy the files to their proper locations
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2020-09-19T05:07:46Z ajithmk_: Ah yes, It did it. Thanks
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2020-09-19T08:10:58Z markasoftware: (with-open-file (stream "./blah" :if-does-not-exist :create) (error))
2020-09-19T08:11:03Z markasoftware: doesn't actually create the file in SBCL
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2020-09-19T08:13:22Z markasoftware: is that legal?
2020-09-19T08:13:41Z beach: clhs error
2020-09-19T08:13:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_error.htm
2020-09-19T08:13:41Z no-defun-allowed: clhs close
2020-09-19T08:13:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_close.htm
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2020-09-19T08:14:22Z no-defun-allowed: WITH-OPEN-FILE will call CLOSE with :ABORT T if non-local transfer of control occurs. "If abort is true, an attempt is made to clean up any side effects of having created stream."
2020-09-19T08:14:22Z beach: markasoftware: You have a syntax error, so the thing can't be executed.
2020-09-19T08:15:24Z markasoftware: yes, i suppose error needs an argument
2020-09-19T08:15:30Z beach: It does.
2020-09-19T08:15:54Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, even with an invalid ERROR form a file is still created here.
2020-09-19T08:16:17Z beach: Oh?
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2020-09-19T08:18:06Z no-defun-allowed: I'm currently using SBCL 2.0.5, and (with-open-file (s "./blah" :if-does-not-exist :create)) will create a file called blah.
2020-09-19T08:18:14Z no-defun-allowed: I forgot the (error) on the inside. Oops.
2020-09-19T08:18:23Z beach: That would do it. :)
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2020-09-19T08:18:48Z markasoftware: ok no-defun-allowed, you are right. It happens with :direction :io
2020-09-19T08:18:51Z no-defun-allowed: I forgot it in IRC, rather. There is an (ERROR) in that form that I typed into the REPL.
2020-09-19T08:19:41Z markasoftware: :direction :input does not trigger it i guess. Seems like it's not enough to count as a bug anyway
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2020-09-19T08:19:54Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, :io or :output will delete the file (indirectly) if non-local transfer of control causes execution to leave the WITH-OPEN-FILE form.
2020-09-19T08:20:16Z no-defun-allowed: "If stream performs output to a file that was created when the stream was created, the file is deleted and any previously existing file is not superseded."
2020-09-19T08:20:48Z markasoftware: well that's pretty clear
2020-09-19T08:20:49Z markasoftware: thanks1
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2020-09-19T12:55:05Z Josh_2: afternoon
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2020-09-19T12:55:19Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-09-19T13:44:05Z Plazma: so if everything can be changed in lisp then it doesn't really have the concept of immutable data structues?
2020-09-19T13:45:13Z beach: Not everything can be changed.  For instance modifying literal data is undefined.  But you are right, there is not a concept of immutable data structures per se.
2020-09-19T13:45:23Z Plazma: ahh ok
2020-09-19T13:45:24Z beach: Common Lisp is not a purely functional programming language.
2020-09-19T13:45:52Z beach: In fact, you can't even say that it's a functional programming language in that sense.
2020-09-19T13:46:18Z Plazma: ahh ok so i'm confusing that , then. I was reading some things about the theory of that and that's a huge benefit they tout ..a nd i'm still trying to wrap my head around how/why that's such a benefit especially in terms of performance
2020-09-19T13:46:25Z beach: Modern Common Lisp code is highly object oriented, and relies on identity a lot, which is kind of the opposite of functional programming.
2020-09-19T13:47:48Z beach: The advocates of functional programming cite performance only in terms of the possibility of parallelization, since if things are side-effect free, you can presumably parallelize to a greater degree.
2020-09-19T13:48:32Z beach: But side-effect free data structures are often significantly less efficient than the imperative counterpart.
2020-09-19T13:50:14Z beach: The main benefit that is cited by advocates of functional programming is simpler maintenance because programs are supposedly easier to understand if they have no side effects.
2020-09-19T13:50:39Z Plazma: that's also been my analysis thus far, and possibly a security benefit too.. but the fact they just make copies upon copies.. seems
2020-09-19T13:52:10Z beach: It's an interesting problem to try to minimize copying while still maintaining overall side-effect freedom.
2020-09-19T13:52:23Z TwoNotes: Not just parallelization, but also distribution over networks for reliability purposes
2020-09-19T13:52:32Z beach: That too.
2020-09-19T13:52:48Z TwoNotes: Erlang is an extreme example
2020-09-19T13:52:54Z beach: Plazma: You have some of that in Common Lisp, of course.  If you do (CDR X), you are not copying anything.
2020-09-19T13:53:14Z beach: ... or (CONS <something> x).
2020-09-19T13:53:43Z Plazma: ahhh ok
2020-09-19T13:53:46Z Plazma: i've seen CONS before
2020-09-19T13:54:29Z beach: I should hope so.
2020-09-19T13:56:04Z beach: Speaking of which, I wonder whether it would be better style to use LIST* together with FIRST, SECOND, REST, etc., and CONS only together with CAR, CDR, etc.
2020-09-19T13:57:34Z beach: Plazma: In fact, nothing is every implicitly copied in Common Lisp.  At least I can't think of any exceptions.
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2020-09-19T14:00:34Z Plazma: so a side-effect can be about anything in this context? basically something that shouldn't happen that would break the entire application/system
2020-09-19T14:01:06Z beach: I don't understand.
2020-09-19T14:01:39Z beach: A side effect is usually defined as a modification to some object that can be detected by code that shares that object.
2020-09-19T14:01:47Z ggole: Structures without identity do make some optimisations easier/possible
2020-09-19T14:02:04Z ggole: Hoisting, numbering, etc
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2020-09-19T14:04:14Z ggole: Flattening things into arrays
2020-09-19T14:05:11Z MichaelRaskin: beach: well, does incf allocating a new bignum count as implicit copying?
2020-09-19T14:06:13Z Plazma: ahhh ok
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2020-09-19T14:06:24Z beach: I don't think so.  But you are right, copying could take place where EQ is not defined to work.
2020-09-19T14:06:33Z Plazma: beach: i was essentially asking what a side-effect is in this context.. i was thinking it was more like undefiend behavior vs compiler optimizations
2020-09-19T14:07:11Z beach: Plazma: No, just a mutation.
2020-09-19T14:07:30Z Plazma: ahhh ok
2020-09-19T14:08:20Z beach: Check Wikipedia on Side_effect_(computer_science)
2020-09-19T14:08:59Z Plazma: ahh ok
2020-09-19T14:09:02Z Plazma: so it's a formalized term tehn
2020-09-19T14:09:16Z beach: Yes.
2020-09-19T14:11:05Z beach: Plazma: Remind me, are you new at programming?
2020-09-19T14:11:42Z Plazma: no not at all
2020-09-19T14:12:05Z beach: But nobody told you about side effects?
2020-09-19T14:13:37Z Plazma: oh i'm sure it's came up but i just didn't remember the specifics of it
2020-09-19T14:13:56Z beach: I see.
2020-09-19T14:16:19Z Plazma: i have heard the phrase before but it doesn't come up that much
2020-09-19T14:16:29Z Plazma: also professionally i've been more of a infrastructre/network person
2020-09-19T14:17:07Z beach: I understand.
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2020-09-19T15:06:33Z dra: Hello!
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2020-09-19T15:13:00Z beach: Hello dra.
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2020-09-19T17:41:01Z puchacz: hi, parenscripts uses internally special variables, incf etc. any gotchas when using it from many threads?
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2020-09-19T17:42:07Z puchacz: e.g. when I evaluate in REPL (ps* '(dolist (_ x) _)), I get a piece of javascript with variable named _js_idx345, if I evaluate it again, I get _js_idx346
2020-09-19T17:42:08Z puchacz: etc.
2020-09-19T17:42:32Z puchacz: clearly there is state involved
2020-09-19T17:43:08Z puchacz: also, I am not sure if it is not interning more and more symbols....
2020-09-19T17:44:38Z puchacz: I wrap my web requests with-blank-compilation-environment
2020-09-19T17:44:47Z puchacz: (it is an internal symbol in parenscript)
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2020-09-19T17:45:38Z puchacz: it resets the variable naming counter, but still not sure if it is everything - and if I am not leaking new symbols on every request
2020-09-19T17:45:44Z puchacz: (ps::with-blank-compilation-environment (ps* '(dolist (_ x) _)))
2020-09-19T17:46:04Z puchacz: gives a variable with 1, every time: _js_idx1
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2020-09-19T17:47:46Z puchacz: Maybe not - (ps::with-blank-compilation-environment (ps:ps-gensym)) returns #:_JS1 - i.e. always 1, always #: so uninterned...
2020-09-19T17:47:50Z puchacz: okay :)
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2020-09-19T17:50:24Z mseddon: gensym does not intern. gentemp does.
2020-09-19T17:50:39Z puchacz: mseddon - I used ps-gensym there
2020-09-19T17:50:50Z puchacz: and I don't know what parenscript uses internally in general
2020-09-19T17:51:18Z mseddon: but importantly your dolist example is identical down to variable renaming
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2020-09-19T17:52:02Z puchacz: what do you mean? that with blank compilation environment, the variable names are the same?
2020-09-19T17:52:13Z mseddon: the gensym'd names are not.
2020-09-19T17:52:32Z mseddon: but they are lexically scoped, and not global, so their name is irrelevant.
2020-09-19T17:52:42Z mseddon: what matters is the identity is the same across the code block
2020-09-19T17:53:20Z puchacz: @mseddon - are you looking at with-blank-compilation-environment macro in parenscript?
2020-09-19T17:53:26Z mseddon: (let ((*gensym-counter* 0)) (gensym)) is basically the same as your with-blank-compilation-environment i'd say
2020-09-19T17:53:37Z mseddon: (in the case of setting your gensym-counter at least)
2020-09-19T17:54:09Z mseddon: that will always produce a #:G0 symbol.
2020-09-19T17:54:30Z mseddon: but that's fine, since you may have many #:G0 symbols, and their identity is determined by eq alone.
2020-09-19T17:54:31Z puchacz: sure, but this is Lisp mechanism you are describing. I am wondering if there is something in parenscript that I need to take care of.
2020-09-19T17:55:15Z mseddon: But, if you (macroexpand 'dolist (_ x) _))) you would surely get a new, uninterned gensym each time too?
2020-09-19T17:55:18Z puchacz: parenscript may be interning (thus leaking memory) or have more variables that I need to wrap with (let ....) to make them lexical
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2020-09-19T17:55:43Z puchacz: mseddon - it is irrelevant - parenscript does not macroexpand it
2020-09-19T17:56:36Z mseddon: doesn't it?
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2020-09-19T17:57:03Z puchacz: I don't think so - I think it just recognises a list like (DOLIST ...) and generates javascript from it
2020-09-19T18:01:31Z mseddon: Yes, but that variable name is irrelevant to the output
2020-09-19T18:02:14Z mseddon: If you macroexpand dolist you will see the same behaviour
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2020-09-19T18:02:53Z puchacz: it works all right but I don't know if it is going to be thread safe - maybe I would need to make more variables lexical - and importantly - is it leaking any symbols interning them forever somewhere?
2020-09-19T18:03:28Z mseddon: Gensym does not intern, so presumably neither would ps:gensym
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2020-09-19T18:04:55Z mseddon: And.. thread safety in the browser isn't a thing, since it's an event loop on a single thread.
2020-09-19T18:05:18Z puchacz: I mean thread safety in the server
2020-09-19T18:05:29Z puchacz: my javascript is generated dynamically
2020-09-19T18:05:42Z puchacz: so thread safety in parenscript
2020-09-19T18:05:56Z mseddon: Well, two distinct #:G0 will look like different variables to lisp, so no
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2020-09-19T18:08:48Z mseddon: (and in general *gensym-counter* is thread local, being a special variable, so if this were to be an issue common lisp would have already hit it)
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2020-09-19T18:09:45Z mseddon: I don't think it should be a problem, they are neither interned nor does their generated name matter for a lisp compiler.
2020-09-19T18:11:36Z mseddon: at most it may produce some weird code that LOOKS as though there are two #:G0's when printing, but probably *print-circle* would show that for you.
2020-09-19T18:12:22Z mseddon: and that would require a fairly pathalogical case of macroexpanding in a separate thread, and inserting the results in another, which is so contorted you're unlikely to end up there by mistake.
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2020-09-19T18:17:28Z mseddon: (defmacro test-gensym-variable-identity(a b)
2020-09-19T18:17:28Z mseddon: 	   (let ((x1 (make-symbol "X"))
2020-09-19T18:17:28Z mseddon: 		 (x2 (make-symbol "X")))
2020-09-19T18:17:28Z mseddon: 	     `(let ((,x1 ,a) (,x2 ,b))
2020-09-19T18:17:28Z mseddon: 		(+ ,x1 ,x2)))) ; if parenscript incorrectly assigns the same variable to x1 and x2, this is not an + function.
2020-09-19T18:18:03Z puchacz: oki
2020-09-19T18:18:05Z mseddon: but both of those symbols are called #:X
2020-09-19T18:18:22Z mseddon: hopefully that will allow you to trigger bugs if you are concerned.
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2020-09-19T18:20:46Z mseddon: but again, gensym doesn't intern anything, if you can't access the pointer to the generated symbol from a global, the stack, or the heap, it will be garbage collected, so you can go crazy if you want.
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2020-09-19T18:24:14Z mseddon: (LET ((#:X 2) (#:X 3)) (+ #:X #:X)) ;; with *print-circle* nil
2020-09-19T18:25:05Z mseddon: (LET ((#1=#:X 2) (#2=#:X 3)) (+ #1# #2#)) ;; with *print-circle* t- what lisp sees is two, unique lexical variables that happen to have the same name.
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2020-09-19T18:26:03Z puchacz: all right
2020-09-19T18:26:07Z puchacz: thanks
2020-09-19T18:27:06Z markasoftware: does uiop have unix<->dos newline conversion?
2020-09-19T18:27:24Z markasoftware: and if not, what's my best bet for doing it?
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2020-09-19T18:33:48Z edgar-rft: AFAIK #\newline is the same character in unix and dos, I think what you want is LF to CRLF conversion?
2020-09-19T18:36:24Z puchacz: markasoftware - I think you can use cl-ppcre with explicit characters to be replaced
2020-09-19T18:36:42Z puchacz: (so not \n, but 13, 10 etc.)
2020-09-19T18:37:29Z markasoftware: i am trying to convert \r\n to \n. I don't actually expect any stray \r characters so (remove #\Return str) is working fairly well
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2020-09-19T18:52:09Z markasoftware: looks like uiop:stripln is commonly used for this stuff too
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2020-09-19T18:55:58Z Josh_2: there is the library cl-str
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2020-09-19T21:59:28Z bubo: Hi! Is it possible to defun a function inside a defmacro with the name of the function being passed as an argument to the macro?
2020-09-19T21:59:38Z White_Flame: sure
2020-09-19T21:59:51Z White_Flame: (defmacro make-fun (name ...) `(defun ,name ...))
2020-09-19T22:00:02Z White_Flame: (make-fun my-func ...)
2020-09-19T22:00:15Z White_Flame: => (defun my-func ...)
2020-09-19T22:00:29Z bubo: I'm writing some really ugly code. I don't really know why I'm triggering an error by doing this
2020-09-19T22:01:00Z bubo: "The NAME argument to DEFUN, 'BLABLA is not a function name."
2020-09-19T22:01:15Z White_Flame: looks like an extra quote in there
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2020-09-19T22:01:36Z White_Flame: (defun (quote blabla) ...) without the pretty printer converting it to single-quotes
2020-09-19T22:01:49Z White_Flame: if you pass in (make-fun 'my-func ...) then that error would occur
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2020-09-19T22:02:09Z White_Flame: remember, macros deal with source code literally, you don't need to quote things passed into it
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2020-09-19T22:02:52Z White_Flame: in other words, the parameters to a macro are _not_ evaluated before calling the macro.  There is no evaluation context, at it's at compile time
2020-09-19T22:03:14Z White_Flame: just the raw source code of the parameters are given, and the macro returns new source code using that input source code
2020-09-19T22:03:48Z bubo: Allright. Pardon me for the noob question now. Should I do (defun ,name) or (defun name)?
2020-09-19T22:04:11Z White_Flame: `(defun ,name)  which is the same as (list 'defun name)
2020-09-19T22:04:46Z White_Flame: `(defun name) is the same as (list 'defun 'name) which will just get you (defun name) literally
2020-09-19T22:05:12Z White_Flame: the comma escapes out of the quoted context and allows it to be evaluated
2020-09-19T22:05:24Z bubo: Aaah, I might be confused by where I put my backtick
2020-09-19T22:05:34Z White_Flame: the same place you put a '
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2020-09-19T22:05:52Z White_Flame: but also, #clschool is a good place to ask stuff like this, especially when this channel gets otherwise busy
2020-09-19T22:06:00Z bubo: The whole macro is just a big IF, each branch defining a function with some extra fancyness
2020-09-19T22:06:12Z bubo: I just wrapped my if with a backtick, at the beginning of the definition
2020-09-19T22:06:31Z White_Flame: that means that the IF form will be returned, so the IF decision making will happen at runtime
2020-09-19T22:06:46Z White_Flame: if the IF is not quoted, then the macro is deciding which code to generate/return at compile-time
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2020-09-19T22:11:05Z bubo: Whoop, my internet connection died all of the sudden. Is it possible to see chat logs?
2020-09-19T22:13:15Z White_Flame: 1st link in the topic
2020-09-19T22:13:31Z White_Flame: also, I don't think you missed anything
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2020-09-19T22:25:45Z bubo: I uploaded the macro here -> https://pastebin.com/TrbHDNaA . If someone is willing to look at it, I'm ready to be roasted.
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2020-09-19T22:26:08Z bubo: Trying to learn CL without much programming exp, can only be a good thing
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2020-09-19T22:38:20Z White_Flame: that pastebin 404s for me
2020-09-19T22:38:29Z White_Flame: ah,missed
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2020-09-20T02:14:11Z ldbeth: good morning everyone
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2020-09-20T02:19:28Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ldbeth.
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2020-09-20T02:59:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-20T05:46:31Z drmeister: What is the accepted idiom when you wrap a form with hander-case and you catch an error and then you want to signal the error again?
2020-09-20T05:46:55Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/KvXgGXQv/
2020-09-20T05:46:59Z drmeister: Is it that?
2020-09-20T05:48:10Z no-defun-allowed: I prefer to handler-bind if we'd signal the error again, because then the debugger gives you a more interesting backtrace.
2020-09-20T05:49:51Z drmeister: Ok - I'll give that a try - thank you.
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2020-09-20T05:55:43Z no-defun-allowed: We have a macro that looks like handler-case but expands to handler-bind, so that we can just add an (invoke-debugger e) in the handler to see how things went wrong.
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2020-09-20T06:00:45Z no-defun-allowed: The word I'm looking for is "unwind"; handler-case unwinds too early, and the call frames that signalled are long gone.
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2020-09-20T06:41:10Z aeth: I tend to use handler-case because I can actually remember how its syntax goes. A macro expanding to handler-bind is an interesting idea.
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2020-09-20T09:54:01Z pve: Hi, is this an ok way to rename a class:
2020-09-20T09:54:06Z pve: (setf (class-name my-class) 'new-name (find-class 'new-name) my-class (find-class 'old-name) nil)
2020-09-20T09:54:13Z pve: (three assignments there)
2020-09-20T09:55:42Z jackdaniel: it is
2020-09-20T09:55:52Z pve: jackdaniel: thanks!
2020-09-20T09:55:55Z jackdaniel: sure
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2020-09-20T23:32:02Z AeroNotix: This might be a bit vague until I can make a dead simple test case, but I want to ask:
2020-09-20T23:32:15Z AeroNotix: I'm trying to allocate a C struct, where a field is supposed to be an array of structs.
2020-09-20T23:32:42Z AeroNotix: I want to allocate that array such as `(mapcar #'make-c-struct-from-thing list-of-lisp-things)`
2020-09-20T23:33:09Z AeroNotix: and then use `(foreign-alloc :pointer :initial-contents result-of-mapcar`
2020-09-20T23:33:28Z AeroNotix: but when I do, it appears that the pointers change. I.e. one of the structs has a `char*`
2020-09-20T23:34:02Z AeroNotix: if I dump the pointer of a `char*` before putting it into the array, I can see it has a specific  value, when I access the same field via the array - the pointer is way wrong...
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2020-09-21T02:58:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-21T03:14:51Z borei: hi beach, was watching the video, you shared link on Friday, - pretty good one. Dosn't agree how was overall computing power was estimated, but in general - yeah, there is no fundamental changes in last almost 70 years
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2020-09-21T03:15:24Z beach: borei: Oh, the one by "Uncle Bob"?
2020-09-21T03:15:30Z borei: yep
2020-09-21T03:16:02Z beach: Great.  Again, I think that since he is an important figure, this video may have some impact.
2020-09-21T03:17:05Z borei: im not professional programmer, and always missing some fundamental things, and videos like that one are filling such gaps in my knowledge
2020-09-21T03:18:24Z borei: i shared it with mu colleagues  at work - hmm, they either didn't watch it or didn't get ideas.
2020-09-21T03:18:27Z beach: I see.  Well, I am not a "mainstream" programmer, so I am missing lots of fads like micro services, Java IDEs, Scrum, TDD, etc.  And his other videos fill me in in a similar way.
2020-09-21T03:18:34Z borei: that is frustrating
2020-09-21T03:18:37Z beach: Sure.
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2020-09-21T03:19:47Z beach: He has a long lecture series entitled "Clean Code" that I watched for that reason.
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2020-09-21T03:21:46Z borei: that would be cool to watch  - just need to deal with my custom logger, which is already becoming pretty dirty :-)
2020-09-21T03:22:47Z beach: Heh, sure.  I watch those videos while doing my daily physical exercise, so it doesn't take any additional time for me.
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2020-09-21T04:31:19Z HiRE_: borei: I will tell you that if it wasn't for being in school all of my interest in actual computer science would've atrophied by now
2020-09-21T04:31:39Z HiRE_: combine that with drinking an entire vat of lisp koolaid industry fads have left me very jaded.
2020-09-21T04:33:55Z beach: I guess the lack of commas, makes the last sentence ambiguous.
2020-09-21T04:34:14Z beach: I mean what are "lisp koolaid industry fads"?
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2020-09-21T04:34:53Z beach: And what does it mean to be in "school all of my interest"?
2020-09-21T04:35:51Z borei: i was trying to get an idea, but for person with not native english language - it's a bit tough sentence :-)
2020-09-21T04:36:10Z beach: It's a simple thing of missing commas, I think.
2020-09-21T04:36:25Z HiRE_: yes
2020-09-21T04:36:30Z HiRE_: I drank a bowl of lisp koolaid
2020-09-21T04:36:30Z aeth: My guess is "I will tell you that — if it wasn't for being in school — all of my interest in 'actual computer science' would've atrophied by now"
2020-09-21T04:36:32Z HiRE_: now I am jaded
2020-09-21T04:36:48Z aeth: "combine that with drinking an entire vat of lisp koolaid, industry fads have left me very jaded."
2020-09-21T04:37:02Z beach: Yeah, sounds right.
2020-09-21T04:37:14Z aeth: of course, the fun thing about missing punctuation is that you can insert it as you wish
2020-09-21T04:37:49Z HiRE_: I just wanted to teach everyone about parse trees
2020-09-21T04:37:51Z borei: question about garbage collector. for example i have object which is holding open file stream, object is getting collected by garbage collector for what-ever reason, how can i make sure that object releases file stream properly.
2020-09-21T04:37:51Z beach: HiRE_: When a reader sees "school all of my", something like "early life".
2020-09-21T04:38:02Z beach: is expected.
2020-09-21T04:38:41Z HiRE_: I've been speaking english for 30 years and I will never understand it
2020-09-21T04:38:44Z beach: borei: In a lot of garbage collection technique, you can't.
2020-09-21T04:38:45Z borei: basically i need to close file (in my case), then object can be destroyed
2020-09-21T04:39:17Z beach: borei: The term is "finalization" and it's a controversial subject.
2020-09-21T04:39:26Z HiRE_: finalization in java isnt even guaranteed
2020-09-21T04:39:30Z HiRE_: its more like a suggestion
2020-09-21T04:39:33Z borei: beach: does it mean that i have leaking program ?
2020-09-21T04:39:57Z beach: borei: Probably.  That's why we have constructs such as WITH-OPEN-FILE.
2020-09-21T04:40:40Z HiRE_: incredible that it took python so long to copy WITH-OPEN-FILE
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2020-09-21T04:42:13Z HiRE_: huh...whats interesting though is that the GC would collect the object even though its holding a reference to another object.
2020-09-21T04:42:20Z HiRE_: unless reference counting isnt bidirectional
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2020-09-21T04:42:49Z HiRE_: I guess it couldn't be in reality
2020-09-21T04:43:10Z beach: HiRE_: What?  An object is "collected" if it is not referred to.  What it refers to is of no importance.
2020-09-21T04:43:57Z aeth: And this is why finalizers are controversial. You don't really know if some resource you want freed is still being referred to somewhere.
2020-09-21T04:43:58Z borei: hmm, seems like in my case i need to call "destructor" explicitly before program termination.
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2020-09-21T04:44:42Z beach: borei: Like I said, many GC techniques don't even touch garbage objects, so you can't call anything on them.
2020-09-21T04:44:43Z aeth: borei: That's generally done with UNWIND-PROTECT, generated via the WITH-FOO-BAR macro pattern.
2020-09-21T04:45:28Z beach: HiRE_: What "reference counting" are you referring to?
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2020-09-21T04:48:47Z no-defun-allowed: I think the Python documentation says you can't rely on finalizers to close files, which is quite ironic, given that refcount weenies like to say you can use refcounting to manage other resources.
2020-09-21T04:49:04Z beach: HiRE_: No serious language implementation uses reference counting.  It is flawed, and at least an order of magnitude slower than tracing garbage collection.
2020-09-21T04:49:31Z aeth: heh
2020-09-21T04:49:35Z no-defun-allowed: "Notably, both Java and Python do not guarantee that finalizers will ever be called, and thus they cannot be relied on for cleanup."
2020-09-21T04:49:50Z aeth: beach: Unfortunately, it's in style again. Maybe they found an efficient approach, or maybe they just forgot.
2020-09-21T04:50:30Z beach: aeth: In what serous language implementation is it used?
2020-09-21T04:51:12Z no-defun-allowed: From memory, CPython uses reference counting and a generational non-moving collector to break cycles, so you get the worst of both worlds (refcounting performance, or lack thereof, and "random" stop-the-world pauses).
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2020-09-21T04:51:34Z aeth: beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_counting#Examples_of_use
2020-09-21T04:51:42Z aeth: I don't think that that's a complete list
2020-09-21T04:52:10Z aeth: Although, to be fair, a lot of those languages don't emphasize being fast.
2020-09-21T04:52:21Z no-defun-allowed: Also from memory, C++, Swift and Objective-C, Rust, and Vala.
2020-09-21T04:52:32Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: I think the first four of my subset do.
2020-09-21T04:53:08Z beach: aeth: Those are not "serious" as far as I can tell.  Pretty much by definition.
2020-09-21T04:55:39Z beach: aeth: Let me say this again;  It is impossible to write a C++ program that is both modular and fast, and the reason is lack of automatic memory management.  Adding reference counters makes the code at least an order of magnitude slower than the equivalent code in a serious language, and it still has memory leaks.  I don't consider that "serious".  It's a joke.
2020-09-21T04:56:44Z beach: But since C++ programmers are convinced that the generation of fast code by the compiler is all that counts, they do not see the problem, since they are not comparing the code to the equivalent in a serious language.
2020-09-21T04:57:03Z no-defun-allowed: C++ is a joke taken way too far, Swift and O-C are the only jokes you get on iOS from memory, we won't talk about the fourth one, and one Linux distribution used Vala to rewrite everything because the applications otherwise would look too different.
2020-09-21T04:57:11Z contrapunctus: beach: there's a little No True Scottsman here :) (arising from "serious", which is ill-defined) "no serious language uses X" "language L uses X" "language L is not a serious language" (NB I haven't really programmed in any non-Lisp and don't really like anything else, so I'm not at all defending anything here)
2020-09-21T04:57:45Z beach: Sure, on #lisp everything has to be debated to death.
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2020-09-21T04:59:05Z no-defun-allowed: And for the first four of the subset I gave, their absurd idea of "real-time" which somehow allows the strange performance of malloc-ing but not garbage collecting trumps all, despite that no one I've seen that made the point has had to write a real-time system.
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2020-09-21T04:59:48Z contrapunctus: There's a "scriba" on https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html but `(ql:quickload :scriba)` says "System "scriba" not found" 🤔 Here's what I've tried - `(ql:where-is-system :scriba) ;; => NIL`, `(ql:system-apropos "scriba") ; No value`, `(ql:update-dist "quicklisp") ;; => You already have the latest version of "quicklisp": 2020-07-15. ;; => NIL`
2020-09-21T05:01:28Z no-defun-allowed: One "realistic" example of a real-time system is a printer which can't pause while it's printing, because it has to control the inkjets/laser/etc. Knowing printer software, a printer wouldn't be doing very much consing while setting hardware registers according to the pixels in the page image it rendered out.
2020-09-21T05:02:42Z no-defun-allowed: contrapunctus: Interesting. (ql:system-apropos "scriba") provides system descriptions that look like those on the releases page.
2020-09-21T05:02:51Z no-defun-allowed: ...here.
2020-09-21T05:03:03Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure there are any RTGCs outside of the JVM, and then you have to use the JVM.
2020-09-21T05:03:24Z aeth: at that point, C++ starts looking like an option...
2020-09-21T05:03:58Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: selwyn told me that the Memory Pool System has a realtime mode, but it's proprietary. That one Lisp space project used LispWorks with a realtime collector.
2020-09-21T05:04:13Z contrapunctus: no-defun-allowed: what can I do to fix this? 😔
2020-09-21T05:05:19Z no-defun-allowed: contrapunctus: I'm not sure, sorry.
2020-09-21T05:05:44Z contrapunctus: Welp 😶
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2020-09-21T05:09:30Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: Also, I wrote an incremental collector. It's probably not very good, but that is a "RT"GC outside of the JVM.
2020-09-21T05:14:03Z beach: OK, so let's analyze the situation: What could possibly be the reason for a designer of a language to use manual memory management?  And what could possibly be the reason for using reference counters instead of a tracing garbage collector in a system with automatic memory management?  And then let's see of any of those arguments qualify as "serious".
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2020-09-21T05:14:50Z beach: Manual memory management is slower than automatic memory management, so that can't be a reason.
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2020-09-21T05:15:10Z beach: Manual memory management makes modularity impossible so that can't be a reason.
2020-09-21T05:15:43Z no-defun-allowed: I've read up on C++ and Rust for writing a book (half of which is arguing why one should use dynamic systems); and refcounting is what you do there when the lifetime of an object isn't immediately obvious.
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2020-09-21T05:16:05Z beach: Plus manual memory management is not "real time" if you `delete' a big data structure.
2020-09-21T05:16:34Z beach: Reference counting is at least an order of magnitude slower than tracing, so that can't be a reason.
2020-09-21T05:16:57Z beach: Reference counting is flawed in that it can't handle cycles, so that can't be a reason.
2020-09-21T05:16:58Z no-defun-allowed: C++ does whatever, but Rust uses something like linear typing most of the time.
2020-09-21T05:17:17Z beach: Reference counting is not real time if it calls `delete' on a big data structure, so that can't be the reason.
2020-09-21T05:17:41Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, actually the reason for Rust is gloriously awful; it was supposed to use a tracing garbage collector optionally, but the LLVM support for garbage collection wasn't up to scratch at the time.
2020-09-21T05:18:44Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: RTGC = niche and potentially used by HFT, so, yeah, not surprising that it's often proprietary. There's always trade-offs, though, and the gold standard for this sort of thing isn't merely real-time, though.
2020-09-21T05:18:51Z aeth: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=real-time+concurrent+parallel+garbage+collector&ia=web
2020-09-21T05:18:57Z contrapunctus: beach: I see...thank you for explaining it in detail.
2020-09-21T05:19:11Z beach: I saw a presentation by a member of the Rust committee or whatever decides on the language, and he was under the false impression that tracing garbage collection is slower than manual memory management, so the entire reason for the existence of the language is based on incorrect assumptions.
2020-09-21T05:19:57Z contrapunctus: I removed ~/quicklisp/ and installed it again, and we're back in business. 👌
2020-09-21T05:20:01Z no-defun-allowed: That may still be the case; I recall drmeister was still not happy with the precise GC interface for LLVM, so Clasp uses the Boehm conservative collector, and will probably migrate to a (semi-)conservative collector like the Memory Pool System.
2020-09-21T05:20:08Z beach: And it is possible that only Java has a commercial real-time garbage collector, but real-time garbage collectors exist, so there is no reason to design a language or an implementation of a language as if they don't exist.
2020-09-21T05:20:28Z no-defun-allowed: contrapunctus: Great to hear, though I'd hope it was fixable somehow without resetting Quicklisp.
2020-09-21T05:21:51Z beach: If anyone can think of any remaining instances of "serious", I am all ears.
2020-09-21T05:23:09Z beach: "I don't now how GC works, so I'm designing this language without it" doesn't count.
2020-09-21T05:23:31Z beach: "My friend told me that GC is slow" doesn't count either.
2020-09-21T05:24:38Z no-defun-allowed: As well as the weird definition of "real-time", there's also the hope that their code will run on microcontrollers if they eschew a runtime and GC. Yet I also haven't seen anything that would run on a microcontroller.
2020-09-21T05:25:14Z aeth: beach: Yes, but now you've turned a programming language design project into a garbage collector implementation project.
2020-09-21T05:25:43Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: Actually, ECL uses the Boehm garbage collector, and it can be configured to run incrementally.
2020-09-21T05:26:16Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: You can use *a* GC as a library, but you cannot use *the* GC that answers these objections as a library, since it's hard and cutting edge.
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2020-09-21T05:27:08Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: but, yes, there's also the hope that one's language can compete with C and C++ if it doesn't have a GC, since the only people still using C and C++ are people who hate GC, and there's less competition there
2020-09-21T05:27:19Z beach: aeth: So "I would rather design a language that is way worse than existing ones in terms of performance, modularity, and correctness, than to learn how to implement a garbage collector" is "serious"?
2020-09-21T05:28:08Z aeth: beach: In the worse is better sense... Other languages started around the same time and doing things the correct way are probably still implementing their GC.
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2020-09-21T05:34:51Z no-defun-allowed: I would say that a linear typing compiler goes "the other way" on correctness, and marks safe programs as unsafe; but for modularity, well, you have to_foo and as_foo which explicate memory management (to destroying the original object, as not destroying it).
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2020-09-21T05:36:42Z no-defun-allowed: And I am reminded of a blog post that resurfaced in #lispcafe: <https://abramov.io/rust-dropping-things-in-another-thread> -- though it lies in the sense that the thread told to deallocate the object is still burning CPU time.
2020-09-21T05:38:08Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Though I think #lisp might be the wrong place to ask; where continuing that line of thought would go is off-topic, and if one is in #lisp, they probably use Common Lisp, and have accepted a GC to some extent.
2020-09-21T05:39:34Z beach: Maybe so.
2020-09-21T05:40:37Z beach: I seriously recommend the video by "Uncle Bob" that I posted a link to the other day, and that borei apparently watched.
2020-09-21T05:40:47Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: unless someone has designed a non-GCed subset of Common Lisp
2020-09-21T05:41:10Z aeth: Amusingly, you could probably do it so the runtime is non-GCed, but the macro system uses the full language.
2020-09-21T05:42:00Z no-defun-allowed: Well, selwyn has expressed that they would prefer a lower latency collector for virtual reality experiments, and I'm honestly a bit annoyed with pause times with large heaps, but for the most part what free Lisp implementations have is good enough.
2020-09-21T05:42:01Z beach: That would be very different from a subset of Common Lisp, or it would just have fixnum arithmetic.
2020-09-21T05:42:52Z aeth: or floating point
2020-09-21T05:43:00Z beach: Right.
2020-09-21T05:43:08Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, how much would you have to take away from Common Lisp to do that? You are always one EVAL or COMPILE away from trashing static analysis, and inter-function call stuff would also be trashed with (SETF FDEFINITION).
2020-09-21T05:43:17Z aeth: you could probably express quite a bit
2020-09-21T05:43:58Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I understand that most cores on a typical desktop usually do nothing.  There are published GC algorithms that could use different threads for concurrent and real-time GC.
2020-09-21T05:44:31Z beach: Ignorant hackers who design and implement their own languages of course would not bother reading up on thoes.
2020-09-21T05:44:33Z beach: those.
2020-09-21T05:45:00Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: for one thing, if floats work, pretty much any numerical algorithm would be expressable as long as it's on fixed-sized arrays.
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2020-09-21T05:47:51Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Quite possibly, but I would not want to use the "optimisation" presented on a server, or a program that is usually busy doing things. And in the case of a command line program (the subject of an article), you could just exit early and let the OS drop the memory (which is basically free), or you wait for that thread to finish cleaning up (which is one thread creation slower than before).
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2020-09-21T05:52:27Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: and I believe the idea of such a subset would be to, essentially, error on things like EVAL or COMPILE or anything else that could break the subset.
2020-09-21T05:52:37Z aeth: (by simply not including them in the subset)
2020-09-21T05:52:43Z beach: Using more threads is not necessarily a way of  making if faster, but a way of avoiding pauses.
2020-09-21T05:52:56Z no-defun-allowed: Ah, okay.
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2020-09-21T05:53:52Z aeth: beach: right... mainstream desktop processors these days are 6-16 cores, with high-end/workstation CPUs going up to 64 cores (128 threads)
2020-09-21T05:53:52Z beach: aeth: Even with integer arithmetic, it would not be a subset.
2020-09-21T05:54:11Z beach: aeth: You would have to change the semantics too.
2020-09-21T05:54:48Z beach: So, then calling it a "subset of Common Lisp" would be a stretch.
2020-09-21T05:54:55Z aeth: beach: It could error on bignum, but optimize (like SBCL already does) various ways to keep it fixnum, like MOD
2020-09-21T05:55:23Z beach: But that is not what the standard says, so you would change the semantics.
2020-09-21T05:55:33Z no-defun-allowed: (I do have a tale about them "not bothering to read up", but I don't like my reaction in hindsight, and that's also off-topic.)
2020-09-21T05:55:59Z beach: Tell it in #sicl some time.
2020-09-21T05:56:59Z no-defun-allowed: Alright, your generic dispatch scheme comes up, so it wouldn't be off-topic there actually.
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2020-09-21T08:00:27Z contrapunctus: A real time GC might be important for me, because I'm thinking of writing a DAW, sequencer, and video editor in Lisp.
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2020-09-21T08:07:52Z moon-child: contrapunctus: possibly try abcl, and one of the low-latency java gcs?  Abcl is not super fast, but should satisfy your latency reqs
2020-09-21T08:08:02Z aeth: contrapunctus: I'm guessing you're talking about audio?
2020-09-21T08:08:41Z aeth: contrapunctus: in that case, ouch... sounds like it would be tough
2020-09-21T08:09:02Z no-defun-allowed: If you don't cons, the GC won't run.
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2020-09-21T08:09:22Z beach: I designed the nursery collector of SICL to be good enough for audio.  It hasn't been tested in real life of course.
2020-09-21T08:09:25Z no-defun-allowed: Pre-allocating temporary buffers should be doable with audio at the least.
2020-09-21T08:10:12Z contrapunctus: aeth: yeah. But I guess I'll be using C wrappers for the audio/video, so maybe it won't be a problem... 🤔
2020-09-21T08:10:27Z beach: Oh dear.
2020-09-21T08:10:40Z contrapunctus: beach: ? ._.
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2020-09-21T08:11:55Z no-defun-allowed: (With a complicated networking system, you do cons here and there, and it's a bit harder. But after being pressured to do so by the SICL bootstrapping instructions two years ago, I've run SBCL with very large heaps, which I think lengthens pause times.)
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2020-09-21T08:12:49Z no-defun-allowed: (But now, would I rather decrease the heap size by default to do latency tests every so often, and have problems when I want to use more objects, or keep the heap size large and remember to shrink it when testing?)
2020-09-21T08:13:48Z beach: contrapunctus: I have explained my position a gazillion times, but in summary, when people use C code to solve their immediate problems, they collectively spend a lot of time debugging and asking questions here, and it does not benefit Common Lisp at all.
2020-09-21T08:13:49Z beach: If each person instead created a library or an application is pure Common Lisp, then the situation would be the opposite, namely that everyone would benefit in the end.
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2020-09-21T08:15:17Z beach: s/is pure/in pure/
2020-09-21T08:15:58Z ebzzry: Good day, everyone!
2020-09-21T08:16:07Z beach: Hello ebzzry.
2020-09-21T08:16:22Z contrapunctus: beach: hm...I'm iffy about using C libraries, too, because most of the programs I've used are written in C/C++ and are also super crashy...which causes me no end of frustration as a user.
2020-09-21T08:16:24Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ebzzry.
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2020-09-21T08:16:38Z ebzzry: How’s lisping?
2020-09-21T08:17:55Z beach: ebzzry: Quite good.  I am looking forward to scymtym's presentation of Eclector, hopefully for the next online Lisp meeting.
2020-09-21T08:19:07Z beach: ebzzry: And the work of jackdaniel on Clostrum (implementation-independent library for improved first-class global environments) is shaping up enough that I can use it in SICL bootstrapping.
2020-09-21T08:19:20Z no-defun-allowed: Pretty good, though I'm taking a break to write a book and explore the design space. Also definitely looking forward to the Eclector presentation, because the small demos scymtym made are very impressive.
2020-09-21T08:19:33Z aeth: contrapunctus: If only there was a reliable, safe language that people could rewrite their C/C++ applications in.
2020-09-21T08:19:49Z contrapunctus: aeth: 😏
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2020-09-21T08:20:36Z contrapunctus: Well, implementing audio/video isn't my idea of fun, but if it helps Lisp/make better programs, sure...I might try.
2020-09-21T08:20:38Z ebzzry: That’s good to know!
2020-09-21T08:21:01Z ebzzry: May I ask, among the open-source implementations, which has the best story with standalone executables with multithreading?
2020-09-21T08:22:01Z ebzzry: On Windows 10, I forgot to mention.
2020-09-21T08:22:06Z aeth: Depends on which architecture you're talking about. Iirc, SBCL doesn't have multithreading on ARM? Or something like that.
2020-09-21T08:22:14Z no-defun-allowed: Clozure by a hairs' width, because it'll run multithreaded on 32-bit ARM before crashing cause of a GC bug, unlike SBCL which won't run at all threaded. If that doesn't matter, either of those is fine.
2020-09-21T08:22:54Z aeth: I'd probably use SBCL for standalone executables.
2020-09-21T08:23:12Z ebzzry: I forgot to mention, my bad, that it’s constrained for CL on Windows.
2020-09-21T08:24:02Z no-defun-allowed: That should still hold on Windows; I think SBCL used to warn you threads weren't stable on Windows, but I never had problems with it.
2020-09-21T08:25:54Z aeth: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/scripting.html
2020-09-21T08:25:59Z ebzzry: no-defun-allowed: The app works well on mac and linux, but not on SBCL/Windows.
2020-09-21T08:26:54Z no-defun-allowed: Weird then.
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2020-09-21T08:27:24Z ebzzry: no-defun-allowed:indeed.
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2020-09-21T08:28:03Z no-defun-allowed: I think about two years ago I technically "deployed" a program to SBCL/Windows and had some people run it; what goes wrong?
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2020-09-21T08:30:51Z ebzzry: no-defun-allowed: hunchentoot enncounters an error, wherein, the other additional thread is not working properly, or it can't control.
2020-09-21T08:31:28Z no-defun-allowed: Even more weird, because I used Hunchentoot then.
2020-09-21T08:32:26Z ebzzry: no-defun-allowed: i'll open the code sometime this week, then i'll show the relevant parts
2020-09-21T08:32:41Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, that would be useful in figuring out what's going wrong.
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2020-09-21T09:05:29Z shangul: How can I access stuff from a C++ shared library from Common Lisp? It seems that CFFI is just for C and does not support classes
2020-09-21T09:06:44Z White_Flame: clasp
2020-09-21T09:08:08Z no-defun-allowed: "Yes, you have the rest of CL for classes..." I read about a prototype for a C++ wrapper making thing recently.
2020-09-21T09:15:24Z shangul: White_Flame, But that's an implementation. Am I going to force people to use Clasp to use my C++ library?
2020-09-21T09:15:55Z schweers: shangul: depends.  Can you create a wrapper library in C?
2020-09-21T09:16:31Z White_Flame: well, the function call ABI and how it interacts with the machine language is something that's very implementation-specific.  I don't really see how you could build up C++ support in a portable CL way currently
2020-09-21T09:16:39Z White_Flame: without going full turing tarpit
2020-09-21T09:17:07Z shangul: schweers, Users of my c++ library need to create a subclass of a parent class and override methods.
2020-09-21T09:17:13Z shangul: schweers, So I guess no
2020-09-21T09:17:23Z beach: contrapunctus: See what I mean?
2020-09-21T09:17:26Z schweers: Oh, I see.
2020-09-21T09:17:33Z shangul: White_Flame, Thank you I will see what I can do
2020-09-21T09:18:01Z schweers: beach: On a related note: do you believe that there are ever performance reasons which justify using C instead of a free Common Lisp implementation like SBCL?
2020-09-21T09:18:04Z shangul: no-defun-allowed, Thanks for your reply
2020-09-21T09:19:54Z beach: schweers: Not for what I call "application programming".  For "system programming" there might be some reasons.  By "system programming" I mean code that needs access to low-level memory and such, so essentially using C in a way that is not defined by the C standard.
2020-09-21T09:21:24Z schweers: Well yes, I was talking about Application Programming.  Would you consider using foreign memory via CFFI as part of Common Lisp with regards to your answer?
2020-09-21T09:21:25Z beach: schweers: I can also imagine using C for a small specific module in an application that is overall written in Common Lisp, perhaps is the Common Lisp implementation is unable to optimize some specific aspect.
2020-09-21T09:22:11Z beach: schweers: I think my second answer covers that situation, no?
2020-09-21T09:22:12Z schweers: Well, I wasn’t talking about writing the whole application in C
2020-09-21T09:22:54Z no-defun-allowed: shangul: Would it be possible to write the library in Common Lisp?
2020-09-21T09:23:13Z contrapunctus: beach: 😄
2020-09-21T09:23:35Z no-defun-allowed: If you would subclass from CL, it's not that much of a stretch.
2020-09-21T09:24:23Z beach: schweers: It is my experience that people turn to C and CFFI for performance reasons when they feel they need to do some low-level stuff to improve performance.  But the same people then typically blow it completely when it comes to data structures and algorithms in the rest of the code, which would benefit overall performance a lot more if done better.
2020-09-21T09:24:46Z schweers: heh, I see what you mean
2020-09-21T09:26:07Z shangul: no-defun-allowed, yeah after one year or two XD
2020-09-21T09:26:12Z schweers: I once used CFFI and mmap to produce a binary file.  In restrospect I’m not sure that was such a great idea.
2020-09-21T09:26:24Z no-defun-allowed: shangul: I'm sorry to hear that.
2020-09-21T09:27:07Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) would have worked. (But I do mmap files in my grep clone to read them, so...)
2020-09-21T09:27:48Z schweers: shangul: create a single subclass which has explicit function pointers.  Create C wrappers to change these function pointers at runtime, use CFFI.  Ugly, but might work.  I guess you’ll have to judge whether it’s better to do this or rewrite in Lisp.
2020-09-21T09:28:26Z shangul: no-defun-allowed, I didn't write the C++ library myself. I just used codes of the project which was written in C++ and created a wrapper class.
2020-09-21T09:28:47Z shangul: schweers, or use Clasp?
2020-09-21T09:29:01Z schweers: Or that.  I’ve never used clasp, so I can’t comment on it.
2020-09-21T09:30:18Z shangul: Rewrite in Lisp is completely a bad idea so I should judge between Clasp and what you said
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2020-09-21T09:35:47Z shangul: Anyone has a compiled version of clasp for Linux x86_64?
2020-09-21T09:35:57Z shangul: oh wrong channel
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2020-09-21T10:01:53Z bhartrihari: beach: Perhaps we could use a list of foreign libraries that people need help reimplementing; in case any lispers want to help. Like the projects suggestion list on cliki. That could lift off the burden from one dev (team) alone. The community could help when the projects are burdensome for individuals. Perhaps it's the one sided burden of your suggestion that people react negatively to (unless they are
2020-09-21T10:01:54Z bhartrihari: really passionate about purity in Lisp).
2020-09-21T10:02:54Z no-defun-allowed: beach has a list of projects, and I guess most are only implemented as non-Lisp libraries: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2020-09-21T10:05:20Z beach: bhartrihari: Sounds good to me.
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2020-09-21T10:08:21Z beach: Which reminds me, I should add "text-shaping library" to my list.
2020-09-21T10:08:29Z beach: Is that what it's called?
2020-09-21T10:08:41Z schweers: I was about to ask what you mean by "text-shaping"
2020-09-21T10:08:57Z bhartrihari: beach: I think it's there in the list.
2020-09-21T10:09:05Z beach: Oh! Heh!
2020-09-21T10:09:26Z beach: schweers: I should recall the name of one written in C, but my memory...
2020-09-21T10:09:36Z beach: loke knows what I mean, I'm sure.
2020-09-21T10:09:36Z schweers: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/text-shaping-library.html
2020-09-21T10:09:41Z beach: Great!
2020-09-21T10:09:41Z schweers: Do you mean this?
2020-09-21T10:10:07Z beach: Yes, exactly.
2020-09-21T10:10:50Z beach: That's a big one that would be very useful for McCLIM, and Mezzano.
2020-09-21T10:12:06Z scymtym: beach: harfbuzz?
2020-09-21T10:12:20Z beach: A Common Lisp replacement for it, yes.
2020-09-21T10:12:35Z beach: Thanks for reminding me of the name.
2020-09-21T10:13:10Z beach: Time for a lunch break.  I'll be back later.
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2020-09-21T12:18:12Z mseddon: ah yes. I was trying to figure out some of the really nasty edge cases with complex opentype scripts and yick. harfbuzz is not pretty to read.
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2020-09-21T12:19:46Z jackdaniel: if I had desire to work on shaping (which is a mess as far as I can see), I'd first learn harfbuzz abstractions and then try to write a program to transcribe its rules to some parsable format
2020-09-21T12:20:18Z jackdaniel: (from inside the application -- I'm not talking about parsing the C source code)
2020-09-21T12:21:53Z mseddon: jackdaniel: it's pretty fugly, particularly when you start dealing with all the different glyph substitution algorithms. That is at least partly because the fonts themselves are quite a nightmare for scripts with complex ligatures such as arabic etc.
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2020-09-21T12:23:51Z jackdaniel: that's why automatic approach would work best I think
2020-09-21T12:24:23Z mseddon: yeah. I mean to be fair you could probably do a decent job in lisp by taking it directly from these tables https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/typography/opentype/spec/gsub
2020-09-21T12:24:43Z schweers: Do I assume correctly that harfbuzz is not just difficult to understand because of its design or the fact that it’s in C++, but also because the problem is non-trivial?
2020-09-21T12:25:12Z mseddon: schweers: indeed. as you can see from that link, there are no less than 8 different glyph substitution table formats.
2020-09-21T12:25:25Z jackdaniel: schweers: yes, there are plenty of arbitrary rules in arabic/ far-east languages
2020-09-21T12:25:54Z jackdaniel: (there are also some in latin typography, but there are few)
2020-09-21T12:25:55Z mseddon: actually getting a glph renderer for truetype and type 1 fonts is pretty simple though, and kinda fun.
2020-09-21T12:26:06Z schweers: Oh boy, it does look tricky
2020-09-21T12:26:33Z jackdaniel: McCLIM has a native lisp ttf font renderer with kerning, but it does not implement shaping
2020-09-21T12:27:04Z mseddon: there is a bytecoded stack based language to render type 1 glyphs, a bit like postscript, and another, different bytecode format used for true-type font 'hinting' for low res displays, too. it's utterly insane
2020-09-21T12:27:06Z jackdaniel: otoh it is >10x faster than freetype which /does/ shaping ;)
2020-09-21T12:27:44Z mseddon: you can do simple GSUB tables pretty easily and get latin ligatures, fi ffi etc.
2020-09-21T12:28:02Z jackdaniel: there is a font format which embeds shaping information
2020-09-21T12:28:19Z jackdaniel: so there you have it, but it is not as popular as ttf
2020-09-21T12:28:52Z jackdaniel: to be more precise, >100x faster
2020-09-21T12:29:01Z jackdaniel: one order of magnitude lost
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2020-09-21T12:29:11Z mseddon: oh right, I think ttf still has some simple ligature substitution table only. opentype has shaping, it is even more complex than ttf itself.
2020-09-21T12:29:26Z mseddon: and then there are all the arbitrary apple specific extensions etc. etc.
2020-09-21T12:29:36Z mseddon: (to ttf)
2020-09-21T12:29:54Z jackdaniel: how to put it? embrace and extend :)
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2020-09-21T12:30:18Z mseddon: :)
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2020-09-21T13:00:39Z Josh_2: Afternoon
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2020-09-21T13:33:15Z Gnuxie[m]: hi everyone, over the past couple of days i've been hacking on an 'annotation' system for CLOS https://gitlab.com/Gnuxie/gnuxie.annotations/-/blob/master/documentation/explanation.org and I'd like to hear some thoughts on it
2020-09-21T13:35:33Z easye: Gnuxie[m]: ACK.  Looks interesting...
2020-09-21T13:35:47Z jmercouris: Gnuxie[m]: why does the object not keep its own annotations?
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2020-09-21T13:39:44Z Gnuxie[m]: jmercouris: well, is there a way to do that without creating new slot-definitions and metaclasses (or creating a new implementation)?
2020-09-21T13:40:15Z jmercouris: There is not, but I am failing to see the disadvantage of creating one new slot
2020-09-21T13:41:03Z Gnuxie[m]: you're right in that I havn't spent a very long time justifying it yet
2020-09-21T13:41:10Z pve: Hello, the Smalltalk-80 "Blue book" specifies a method "become: otherObject", and I'm wondering if there is an equivalent function in CL. The method is described as follows:
2020-09-21T13:41:17Z pve: "Swap the instance pointers of the receiver and the argument, otherObject. All variables in the entire system that pointed to the receiver will now point to the argument and vice versa. Report an error if either object is a SmallInteger."
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2020-09-21T13:41:47Z jmercouris: you can change the types of objects at runtime
2020-09-21T13:41:54Z jmercouris: however, that is not in the spec (I think)
2020-09-21T13:42:13Z jmercouris: its reliability really depends on the implementation, I have not had good luck with it before
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2020-09-21T13:42:54Z beach: jmercouris: You can change the class of a standard object.
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2020-09-21T13:43:50Z jmercouris: Yes, I think there were some other strange things though with changing the class if I remember, had to do with specialization
2020-09-21T13:43:51Z beach: Gnuxie[m]: I don't recognize the use case.  I need to read your specification a bit more.
2020-09-21T13:43:59Z easye: jmercouris: everywhere that closer-mop works, I would be expect to be able to change the types at runtime.
2020-09-21T13:44:13Z jmercouris: yes
2020-09-21T13:44:48Z easye: Debugging why one's use of MOP doesn't work is another is often my case...
2020-09-21T13:44:55Z beach: jmercouris: Though I am pretty sure there are classes that don't allow an instance of it to change its class.  Let me dig up some examples.
2020-09-21T13:45:42Z pve: the best I could come up with was change-class and copying the slots, but I'm not so sure about it
2020-09-21T13:45:53Z easye finds the actual applied use of AMOP to be more subtle then it seems to be from reading the documentation.
2020-09-21T13:45:57Z jackdaniel: key-value annotation not "embedded" in the annotated object makes sense -- you don't want to clutter "someone else's" classes with your own stuff
2020-09-21T13:46:10Z beach: A class metaobject can't necessarily be used in change-class.
2020-09-21T13:47:17Z beach: "Portable programs must not call change-class to change the class of any class metaobject or to turn a non-class object into a clas metaobject"
2020-09-21T13:47:40Z beach: Same for generic functions.
2020-09-21T13:47:54Z beach: Same for methods.
2020-09-21T13:48:00Z jmercouris: I see
2020-09-21T13:48:15Z beach: Same for slot-definition metaobjects.
2020-09-21T13:48:51Z beach: And in SICL there will be plenty others, like arrays, symbols, packages, streams...
2020-09-21T13:49:33Z Bike: change-class on those is undefined in the standard anyway
2020-09-21T13:49:47Z beach: Ah, so redundant information.  Thanks.
2020-09-21T13:50:40Z jmercouris: anyway to get the readme from a quicklisp system without installing said system?
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2020-09-21T13:50:45Z jmercouris: s/anyway/any way
2020-09-21T13:51:04Z Bike: like what, programmatically?
2020-09-21T13:51:10Z jmercouris: yes
2020-09-21T13:51:17Z Bike: i don't know if quicklisp has a way to download a system without loading it. i would imagine it does
2020-09-21T13:51:18Z jmercouris: (describe (first (ql:system-list))) leads me to believe no
2020-09-21T13:51:50Z jmercouris: the readme is certainly not in the dist itself
2020-09-21T13:52:01Z jmercouris: or the metadata that it collects for the list of systems in system-list
2020-09-21T13:52:19Z Bike: asdf might have a way to specify a readme, i forget
2020-09-21T13:52:25Z Bike: practically speaking most systems probably don't, though
2020-09-21T13:53:04Z v28pabcdef: hey guys, im getting "Failed to find the TRUENAME of /tmp/package.lisp\nNo such file or directory" when I (asdf:load-system) one of my projects i made with (quickproject:make-project). tried reinstalling SLIME but hasnt helped. anyone know?
2020-09-21T13:53:13Z jmercouris: Bike: I guess one could use: asdf:system-description
2020-09-21T13:53:27Z jmercouris: v28pabcdef: has nothing to do with slime
2020-09-21T13:53:40Z v28pabcdef: was guessing but couldnt hurt. google didnt provide many answers.
2020-09-21T13:53:46Z easye: Bike: One can scrape the URIS Quicklisp from <file:~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/releases.txt>
2020-09-21T13:53:48Z jackdaniel: v28pabcdef: perhaps you have loaded the asd file directly from  buffer?
2020-09-21T13:54:00Z v28pabcdef: .. are you not supposed to do that? oops
2020-09-21T13:54:14Z jackdaniel: you may compile it, then it will compile and load file
2020-09-21T13:54:21Z easye: but in practice downloading and installing locally involves code loaded via ASDF, so it can't really be separated easily.
2020-09-21T13:54:25Z jackdaniel: but when you load it, it will probably take the current path
2020-09-21T13:54:35Z jackdaniel: in your case /tmp/
2020-09-21T13:54:46Z jackdaniel: so all files are assumed to be placed in that directory
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2020-09-21T13:55:52Z Gnuxie[m]: jmercouris: the main problem I've faced is that it's not always straightforward to take two metaclasses that are specific to a libraries needs and you basically are at the mercy of either author as to whether they're going to be compatible or not and each author is writing a lot of code to achieve similar aims (annotate a class and its slots)
2020-09-21T13:56:03Z v28pabcdef: thanks. so whats a normal workflow then for loading a system im working on?
2020-09-21T13:56:10Z Gnuxie[m]: I don't give an example of this yet, and I suppose I really should
2020-09-21T13:56:14Z easye: And certainly for any computation Quicklisp dependencies mean ASDF dependencies, so by definition one has already invoked (ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM :quicklisp) in the current image.
2020-09-21T13:56:39Z Gnuxie[m]: jmercouris: There is also a case where a library might want to add annotations to classes it doesn't know about in advance (anything that needs to do some kind of dynamic analysis of other objects like a profiler or something), each library doing this has to create their own incompatible API to access these annotations
2020-09-21T13:56:40Z jackdaniel: v28pabcdef: you put your source code (or symlink your project's directory) in either ~/common-lisp or ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2020-09-21T13:56:42Z jmercouris: I guess: (asdf:system-description (asdf:find-system :cl-json)) will have to do for now
2020-09-21T13:56:53Z jackdaniel: then when you do (asdf:load-system "system-name"), it will be found "automagically"
2020-09-21T13:57:12Z v28pabcdef: nice, thanks a lot.
2020-09-21T13:57:15Z jackdaniel: sure
2020-09-21T13:57:17Z jmercouris: Gnuxie[m]: but you can make a class inherit from something even if you don't know about it in advance
2020-09-21T13:57:25Z jmercouris: this is exactly the problem we had in Nyxt
2020-09-21T13:57:35Z jmercouris: absolutely convoluted I might add, but possible
2020-09-21T13:57:36Z easye: v28pabcdef: you should be able to invoke ASDF:FIND-SYSTEM on the system.  Then use the generic functions ('load-op 'test-op ...) as you need them.
2020-09-21T13:58:19Z easye: As jmercouris points out, most people use convenience DEFUN entry points like ASDF:TEST-SYSTEM and ASDF:MAKE
2020-09-21T13:59:13Z jackdaniel: 1) I'm jackdaniel :) 2) these are classes
2020-09-21T13:59:24Z Gnuxie[m]: jmercouris: right ok
2020-09-21T14:00:29Z v28pabcdef: \q
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2020-09-21T14:01:51Z Gnuxie[m]: jmercouris: do you describe this problem with Nyxt in detail anywhere?
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2020-09-21T14:04:19Z schweers: Quick question: in SBCL #\Linefeed is read as #\Newline.  How do I get the "\r" character?
2020-09-21T14:05:47Z schweers: Nevermind, its #\Return.
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2020-09-21T14:41:02Z _death: Gnuxie[m]: such slot "annotations" have been called facets, like slots of a slot.. some object systems have them, and I remember the MOP book had an example of how to add basic facet support to CLOS
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2020-09-21T14:47:17Z Gnuxie[m]: _death: oh ok, thanks, I'll have to look into that
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2020-09-21T15:01:23Z _death: there have been some CLOS papers discussing facets.. like https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.51.6237&rep=rep1&type=pdf
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2020-09-21T15:51:03Z eta: hmm, does macroexpansion attempt to evaluate the body before the macro function is invoked?
2020-09-21T15:51:18Z eta: I attempted to write a macro that's called like (example-macro (1 . abc)), and it's complaining that 1 isn't a SYMBOL
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2020-09-21T15:56:35Z jackdaniel: I don't understand your question
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2020-09-21T15:57:49Z beach: eta: You had better show the code for the macro.  And yes, your question is strange.
2020-09-21T15:58:06Z eta: oh wait, I just tried to make a minimal test case and I realised I'm an idiot :)
2020-09-21T15:58:25Z eta: TIL if an error occurs during macroexpansion, the traceback doesn't show the invocation of the macro function
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2020-09-21T16:04:36Z _death: eta: such an ordering would make macros useless
2020-09-21T16:05:01Z eta: _death, yeah, thought as much :p
2020-09-21T16:05:54Z Bike: i mean the backtrace _might_ have the macro function in it, depends on the implementation
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2020-09-21T16:09:29Z eta was using SBCL
2020-09-21T16:10:35Z Gnuxie[m]: _death: it looks like ECLOS also had a metaclass to do something similar called attributed-class too
2020-09-21T16:15:52Z _death: yep
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2020-09-21T17:42:05Z treflip: Does cl+ssl depend strictly on OpenSSL? It throws an error during the installation on my machine with LibreSSL, because it can't load libssl.so. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?
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2020-09-21T18:00:31Z _death: libressl is not binary compatible with openssl, iirc
2020-09-21T18:01:00Z treflip: >_<
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2020-09-21T19:08:04Z daphnis: was trying to evaluate an example in grahams book (setf min ...), but sbcl said `violating package lock' ..
2020-09-21T19:08:29Z tychoish: how do you have SBCL installed, and have you done other things?
2020-09-21T19:08:52Z daphnis: through void-linux package manager
2020-09-21T19:08:59Z daphnis: no, i haven't done anything else, i think
2020-09-21T19:09:13Z daphnis: running through slime
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2020-09-21T19:10:59Z daphnis: works with `mini', so it seems `min' is reserved somehow
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2020-09-21T19:17:26Z aeth: daphnis: Redefining things in CL:FOO is undefined behavior. This means that some implementations, like SBCL, can prevent this, such as through "package locks", like in SBCL. Redefining CL:MIN could break a bunch of macros and functions if allowed, and it would prevent optimizations for things like CL:MIN or CL:+, as well, since the function it refers to could have been runtime-redefined.
2020-09-21T19:18:11Z Bike: that shouldn't come up for MIN as a variable though.
2020-09-21T19:18:13Z aeth: daphnis: You're using CL:FOO if you're in CL-USER (the default REPL package; change this with IN-PACKAGE) or if you're in a package that USEs :CL (which is almost all of them).
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2020-09-21T19:19:32Z aeth: Bike: It will come up if MIN is global, like (setf min 42) directly in the REPL, since SBCL's package lock will lock global bindings, including not-currently-defined ones, like variables.
2020-09-21T19:19:47Z aeth: This will work, though: (let ((min 0)) (setf min 42) min)
2020-09-21T19:20:25Z daphnis: aeth: thanks.  i'm a complete beginner.  should i type something to get out of any package?  what's the right state to be in to try the examples in the book?
2020-09-21T19:21:58Z aeth: daphnis: What you're currently doing is SETF on something that is not defined in the current scope, so it attempts to SETF the global variable, which is undefined. SBCL will normally permit this anyway and set the global, but give a warning. e.g. (setf foo 42)
2020-09-21T19:22:13Z aeth: But it's rarely what you actually want to do because it'll be globally scoped and dynamically scoped.
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2020-09-21T19:23:18Z aeth: daphnis: My guess is that there's some local variable MIN that you're supposed to be setting instead, but you're not in its scope with that SETF.
2020-09-21T19:24:50Z jmercouris: daphnis: to succinctly answer the question, work in a package of your own creation
2020-09-21T19:25:01Z jmercouris: (defpackage xyz (:use :common-lisp)) (in-package :xyz)
2020-09-21T19:25:09Z jmercouris: now, it is no problem! name anything whatever you like
2020-09-21T19:26:23Z aeth: jmercouris: Working in your own package but shadowing (iirc) CL:MIN will avoid the direct problem and now you can (setf min 42) to create a dynamic global variable called min, but that's probably not the actual problem. The actual problem is probably that the SETF is outside of the scope of the local, lexical variable it was intending to set
2020-09-21T19:26:28Z aeth: But without the code, it's unclear.
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2020-09-21T19:26:50Z jmercouris: yes, you are probably right, but one step at a time for the new user
2020-09-21T19:26:56Z jmercouris: they should be working in their own package anyways
2020-09-21T19:27:35Z daphnis: same warning/error comes in xyz as well
2020-09-21T19:27:44Z aeth: jmercouris: Your solution doesn't work in SBCL because it's still package locked. (defpackage aeths-package (:use :cl)) (in-package :aeths-package) (setf min 42)
2020-09-21T19:27:45Z jmercouris: daphnis: please post all of your source code
2020-09-21T19:27:48Z aeth: jmercouris: That's still setting CL:MIN
2020-09-21T19:28:02Z jmercouris: I assumed they had done (defparameter min 12)
2020-09-21T19:28:20Z jmercouris: daphnis: please use a paste service for this, do not copy it into IRC directly
2020-09-21T19:28:29Z aeth: jmercouris: It will still fail. SBCL package locks all global bindings for symbols exported from COMMON-LISP (nickname CL)
2020-09-21T19:28:54Z aeth: Even though CL itself only defines a function there.
2020-09-21T19:29:01Z jmercouris: continuation 0 :-)
2020-09-21T19:29:32Z daphnis: its just that line, an example in chapter 3:  (setf min 2)          [not 2 but it doesn't matter]
2020-09-21T19:29:49Z jmercouris: call it something else then
2020-09-21T19:30:07Z jmercouris: daphnis: (setf my-min 2)
2020-09-21T19:30:28Z daphnis: yeah, i was mostly curious why the book uses an example that doesn't work
2020-09-21T19:30:37Z jmercouris: it probably does work in other implementations
2020-09-21T19:30:43Z aeth: daphnis: If that's really supposed to be used at the top level with no other context, then that's just incorrect in three ways. (1) it should be called *min* because it's a global, (2) it should use DEFPARAMETER because using SETF on new variable bindings is undefined behavior, and (3) it can't be called MIN because that's undefined behavior.
2020-09-21T19:31:10Z jmercouris: what is your learning source daphnis ?
2020-09-21T19:31:13Z aeth: So one part poor style, two parts undefined behavior that doesn't have to work on all CLs (and #3 doesn't in SBCL, but #2 does)
2020-09-21T19:31:32Z daphnis: Graham's ANSI Common Lisp
2020-09-21T19:31:40Z jmercouris: what is this book?
2020-09-21T19:31:54Z jmercouris: I see, don't use this book
2020-09-21T19:32:14Z jmercouris: begin with Practical Common Lisp, Graham's book seems to be fraught with errors
2020-09-21T19:33:32Z aeth: There's probably another CL implementation where #3 works, but #2 doesn't.
2020-09-21T19:33:57Z jmercouris: probably, but why bother, who would ever suggest to just setf a top level form without having first defvar/parameter
2020-09-21T19:34:16Z jmercouris: this is a most dated way of thinking
2020-09-21T19:34:16Z aeth: It's possible that there's missing context, since we're only given one line from the book
2020-09-21T19:34:30Z aeth: (and no, the most dated way of thinking would use SETQ or even SET)
2020-09-21T19:34:45Z jmercouris: I am exaggerating when I say "most"
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2020-09-21T19:48:32Z _death: daphnis: it's a fine book.. also check out https://courses.cs.northwestern.edu/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html
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2020-09-21T19:53:40Z _death: daphnis: sbcl is a bit strict (and so are people in this channel..) so you may need to change this bit or that, but mostly the book is fine
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2020-09-21T19:58:03Z daphnis: _death: thanks!  maybe i should try with clisp
2020-09-21T19:58:29Z _death: daphnis: both are good implementations
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2020-09-21T21:57:16Z Hexstream: HexstreamSoft is now officially the #1 top ranked Common Lisp site, even outranking CLiki, common-lisp.net, LispWorks, Franz, etc! https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft/status/1308095171087736834
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2020-09-21T22:06:33Z no-defun-allowed: Well that sucks.
2020-09-21T22:08:26Z White_Flame: what does that measure?  it doesn't come up in the first pages of the 2 search engines I've tried, searching for Common Lisp
2020-09-21T22:08:59Z Hexstream: Based on the Alexa rank.
2020-09-21T22:09:05Z White_Flame: what does that measure?
2020-09-21T22:09:16Z Hexstream: Which ostensibly measures traffic.
2020-09-21T22:09:41Z _death: it's ranked higher than those, but how do you know it's the top ranked CL site?
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2020-09-21T22:10:04Z White_Flame: I think github would probably be the highest ranked CL site :-P
2020-09-21T22:10:07Z Hexstream: Because I know all the biggest Common Lisp sites and none of them outranks HexstreamSoft on Alexa.
2020-09-21T22:11:01Z no-defun-allowed: How does Alexa measure traffic?
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2020-09-21T22:11:30Z _death: White_Flame: I checked github now as well, just for the kicks of it.. was surprised to learn that it's #90.. it's like the internet is populated by mostly programmers.. weird.. google is #1 and gmail is around 4K..
2020-09-21T22:11:31Z Hexstream: Various unscientific means, but there isn't really an alternative. Measurements get progressively more accurate the higher the rank is.
2020-09-21T22:12:30Z White_Flame: so how many unique visitors does your site get per month, and how does traffic get there?  it just seems pretty odd, unless there's been a lot of alexa-specific optimization going on
2020-09-21T22:13:00Z Hexstream: There has been no Alexa-specific optimization whatsoever, unless by complete accident.
2020-09-21T22:14:08Z White_Flame: also, what about lispworks.com and lisp.se, which get the top search results for clhs?
2020-09-21T22:14:49Z Hexstream: 6193 unique visitors to HexstreamSoft this month according to Cloudflare. Highest point was 608 unique visitors on September 1.
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2020-09-21T22:15:31Z Hexstream: https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/lispworks.com
2020-09-21T22:17:13Z _death: https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/gigamonkeys.com
2020-09-21T22:17:36Z Hexstream: Ok, I didn't think about that one, sorry.
2020-09-21T22:17:54Z Hexstream: So yeah, seems like I'm the #2 Common Lisp site, but probably not for long. ;P
2020-09-21T22:19:41Z Hexstream: I'll post this caveat, of course.
2020-09-21T22:21:42Z White_Flame: interesting that 100% of traffic to hexstreamsoft is from Canada
2020-09-21T22:22:18Z White_Flame: but, I have no real reference as to what all the other metrics really mean
2020-09-21T22:22:45Z White_Flame: presumably the major clear numbers like actual visitors/traffic is paywalled
2020-09-21T22:23:17Z Hexstream: It's not a precise science for sure, just what's available.
2020-09-21T22:24:00Z White_Flame: and all these sites seem to have jumped significantly in the last 90 days, though that's probably the school year starting
2020-09-21T22:26:40Z Hexstream: https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft/status/1308170713136857088
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2020-09-21T22:27:17Z _death: I did not point out that it's #1
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2020-09-21T22:28:06Z Hexstream: Well, you effectively did.
2020-09-21T22:28:48Z _death: you seem to be operating under the closed world assumption?
2020-09-21T22:30:42Z Hexstream: I'm operating under the best information that I have after being part of the Common Lisp community for more than a decade.
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2020-09-21T22:33:58Z _death: still, I did not claim it was #1.. you can say that you are not aware of a site that outranks it
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2020-09-21T22:39:46Z Hexstream: Also note that gigamonkeys.com has tons of content (and traffic) unrelated to Common Lisp, but I'm still counting it as a Common Lisp site to be thorough.
2020-09-21T22:43:23Z Hexstream: Well, after investigation, not tons, and most of the site's traffic is quite probably PCL.
2020-09-21T22:43:27Z no-defun-allowed: Hexstream: do you get page view numbers?
2020-09-21T22:44:29Z Hexstream: You mean in Cloudflare analytics? I see 133496 "requests" for the month.
2020-09-21T22:45:30Z Hexstream: Maybe I should try Google Analytics again at some point, I used that billions of years ago but I had like 5 unique visitors per day.
2020-09-21T22:47:08Z White_Flame: I wonder how much of the lisp community also blocks trackers & analytics
2020-09-21T22:47:49Z White_Flame: although I presume cloudflare might have an intrinsic view regardless
2020-09-21T22:47:59Z Hexstream: Right, Cloudflare is immune to that.
2020-09-21T22:48:07Z Gnuxie[m]: hopefully most of it
2020-09-21T22:49:06Z White_Flame: yeah, I certainly do.  But I guess the bump from students would likely be more similar to the general population
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2020-09-21T22:58:26Z Hexstream: btw I'm heavily censored on google for some reason, so checking how my sites rank there is unfortunately not really representative... https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft/status/1168702118619942912
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2020-09-21T22:58:38Z Hexstream: Anyway, that will be all. Thanks for the chat. Bye.
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2020-09-21T23:01:05Z no-defun-allowed: Critical support for Google
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2020-09-21T23:03:52Z Gnuxie[m]: Why did he do that, that was very strange and none of this should matter
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2020-09-21T23:06:42Z aeth: "for some reason" explained in the reply to the linked to tweet.
2020-09-21T23:06:44Z _death: why use alexa when you can use alispa? https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2056#2056
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2020-09-21T23:07:23Z aeth: oh, wait, the tweet is accusing a competitor
2020-09-21T23:09:20Z Gnuxie[m]: Yeah he wasn't arguing with himself which is what it looked like
2020-09-21T23:09:30Z aeth: confusing brand haha
2020-09-21T23:09:37Z aeth: I was like, "wait, why is he arguing against his own site?"
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2020-09-22T00:09:00Z markasoftware: which lisp implementations tend to have less memory usage?
2020-09-22T00:09:17Z Inline: lol
2020-09-22T00:09:35Z Inline: you probably want something like ecl or clisp maybe
2020-09-22T00:09:54Z aeth: Interpreters tend to use less memory, but most people don't really prioritize that over performance these days.
2020-09-22T00:10:04Z aeth: CLISP is interpreted; ECL can be.
2020-09-22T00:10:11Z Inline: if you mean space
2020-09-22T00:10:32Z White_Flame: do the different GC strategies offer any appreciable difference in RAM usage?
2020-09-22T00:10:57Z White_Flame: I would expect not really
2020-09-22T00:11:00Z aeth: Inline: When you bring the whole compiler with you in the runtime environment, there is a very real space vs. speed tradeoff.
2020-09-22T00:11:24Z aeth: e.g. SBCL is roughly twice as fast as CCL and about half the footprint (at the start, before loading in the data) of SBCL.
2020-09-22T00:11:57Z aeth: But at some point, SBCL will win because SBCL's generated asm is about half the size, at least in DISASSEMBLE
2020-09-22T00:11:59Z White_Flame: markasoftware: if your user-created heap objects dominate size, you'll probably not find that much difference between them, and if so the differences would depend on tye specific types used
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2020-09-22T00:13:00Z aeth: s/and about half/and CCL is about half/
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2020-09-22T00:27:57Z markasoftware: i actually may have been wasting more memory in my program than I thought
2020-09-22T00:28:05Z markasoftware: but thanks anyways, clisp is definitely somewhat lighter on the memory
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2020-09-22T00:52:37Z White_Flame: aeth: does CCL include any more facilities than SBCL does?
2020-09-22T00:53:47Z aeth: White_Flame: iirc, CCL has some OS X and Objective-C integration because it started as a Mac-first CL
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2020-09-22T00:54:03Z aeth: now, if those aren't included in builds outside of OS X, that might contribute to its lower memory footprint relative to SBCL on start.
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2020-09-22T01:30:32Z ldbeth: good morning everyong!
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2020-09-22T02:03:46Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ldbeth
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2020-09-22T03:32:11Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-22T03:40:57Z dead10cc: hi
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2020-09-22T03:41:42Z beach: Hello dead10cc.
2020-09-22T03:44:04Z beach: dead10cc: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2020-09-22T03:44:31Z dead10cc: I've been here a while back under a different nick
2020-09-22T03:44:36Z phantomics: morning beach
2020-09-22T03:44:36Z dead10cc: so yes :)
2020-09-22T03:44:38Z beach: Oh, I see.
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2020-09-22T03:50:49Z moon-child: hey all
2020-09-22T03:51:31Z beach: Hello moon-child.
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2020-09-22T06:12:51Z markasoftware: how do you change the expiration of the cookies created for a hunchentoot session? There's a *session-max-time* variable, but that controls the validity of the sessions in the internal database; the cookies sent to the browser still have single-session expiration
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2020-09-22T08:22:40Z markasoftware: defining a method on session-created that replaces the default session cookie seems to work
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2020-09-22T08:58:57Z pve: Hi, is there a way in CL to find out the size of a machine word?
2020-09-22T09:02:56Z flip214: When I have a class used as a mixin, can I have two instances of that in another class instance with different slot names?
2020-09-22T09:03:24Z aeth: pve: *features* with trivial-features loaded to ensure :32-bit or :64-bit is there
2020-09-22T09:03:36Z aeth: e.g. https://github.com/trivial-features/trivial-features/blob/e7bb968d1e0b00aaf06e0671a866a81dbfe99bee/src/tf-sbcl.lisp#L51
2020-09-22T09:04:04Z flip214: aeth: https://github.com/trivial-features/trivial-features/blob/master/SPEC.md
2020-09-22T09:04:16Z flip214: ah, sorry, pve... but aeth beat me
2020-09-22T09:04:22Z aeth: and one that doesn't have it until trivial-features... https://github.com/trivial-features/trivial-features/blob/master/src/tf-ecl.lisp#L58
2020-09-22T09:05:54Z pve: aeth, flip214: thanks!
2020-09-22T09:06:24Z beach: flip214: I am confused about your question.  You don't have instances of a class in another class.
2020-09-22T09:06:37Z pve: On my machine, most-positive-fixnum seems to be 2^62. How reliably could I deduce from that that the word size is 64 bits?
2020-09-22T09:06:46Z beach: flip214: And the slot name is intrinsic to the class, so why would you want to have the same mixin with two different slot names?
2020-09-22T09:07:09Z beach: pve: It could be more, like 128.
2020-09-22T09:07:19Z pve: hmm
2020-09-22T09:07:24Z beach: pve: But it is unlikely to be less.
2020-09-22T09:07:24Z aeth: pve: you could assume > 32 is 64-bit, and you'd be right for modern architectures, as long as new ones aren't added as beach said
2020-09-22T09:07:34Z aeth: pve: but trivial-features answers precisely
2020-09-22T09:07:41Z aeth: and one of your dependencies probably already loads it
2020-09-22T09:07:58Z pve: yeah, just curious..
2020-09-22T09:08:46Z aeth: but if you just want "more than 32 bits" then that's probably what you should check
2020-09-22T09:09:27Z aeth: (although, who knows, maybe there's some implementation that breaks that assumption)
2020-09-22T09:11:49Z aeth: (and close to 32 bits, like, say, 36 bits, might still have a fixnum size <= 32)
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2020-09-22T09:15:00Z flip214: beach: I've got a (DEFCLASS HOST-MIXIN () ) that I'm using in a few other classes. Now, for a TCP connection, I need to store two hosts - a src and a dest. Can I reuse that mixin class or do I need to duplicate the slots (and methods) with different names? I guess the latter, but I wanted to ask
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2020-09-22T09:16:04Z beach: I think you need to duplicate.
2020-09-22T09:18:13Z flip214: thanks!
2020-09-22T09:20:50Z beach: But, you probably should not use inheritance for that.  You should just have two instances of a class.
2020-09-22T09:21:07Z beach: I forget what they call that in traditional object orientation.
2020-09-22T09:21:28Z beach: Composition?
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2020-09-22T09:33:19Z beach: flip214: Did you see that?
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2020-09-22T09:37:05Z flip214: beach: yes, I did.
2020-09-22T09:37:18Z flip214: "is a" versus "has a", yeah.
2020-09-22T09:39:30Z flip214: thing is, I might be dealing with a few millions of them at once, so the additional per-instance overhead for two child objects would become prohibitive - but as I'm going to deduplicate them anyway, it should work out.
2020-09-22T09:40:22Z flip214: sorry, storage is a different issue... just wanted to know whether I can save on source LOC (and complexity) by reusing
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2020-09-22T10:25:05Z eta: is there a way to do the equivalent of POSIX's poll() function on multiple streams in SBCL? (or portably)
2020-09-22T10:25:22Z eta: (or even, a way to get the raw file descriptors and call poll() on those)
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2020-09-22T10:30:10Z jmercouris: (ql:system-list) for a specific dist?
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2020-09-22T10:31:21Z eta was more wondering whether such functionality was already in SB-EXT or similar
2020-09-22T10:32:19Z no-defun-allowed: I tried (apropos "POLL") and there was something, but the poll interface is beyond me. Some stuff to do with POLL in SB-UNIX though.
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2020-09-22T10:34:25Z scymtym: eta: you could do something like (sb-sys:add-fd-handler (sb-sys:fd-stream-fd STREAM) :input (lambda (fd) …)) but i'm not sure that is intended for user code. SB-SYS:SERVE-EVENT is the event loop driver for that
2020-09-22T10:34:26Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: https://cliki.net/site/search?query=io
2020-09-22T10:34:52Z flip214: gives "NIO" for non-blocking IO (via FFI) as first hit
2020-09-22T10:35:11Z flip214: lots of socket abstraction libs as well
2020-09-22T10:35:36Z eta: scymtym, hmm, that's quite usefu
2020-09-22T10:35:39Z eta: l*
2020-09-22T10:36:18Z eta ponders just forgetting about it and using dumb multithreaded / locking code instead though
2020-09-22T10:36:33Z scymtym: documented under "Recursive Event Loop" in http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Extensions :(
2020-09-22T10:36:51Z eta: "documented"
2020-09-22T10:36:56Z eta: there's one sentence :p
2020-09-22T10:37:09Z scymtym: yeah, i was going to add the quotes, but you did it first
2020-09-22T10:37:12Z eta: :)
2020-09-22T10:37:37Z eta: hmm, I might be able to implement what I want using sb-ext:with-timeout though
2020-09-22T10:37:47Z eta: (which is a very useful function, it turns out)
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2020-09-22T10:39:22Z scymtym: please don't. timeouts will asynchronously interrupt your code. use deadlines instead. http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Timeouts-and-Deadlines
2020-09-22T10:42:35Z eta: scymtym, oh, sure, that sounds more reasonable
2020-09-22T10:42:46Z eta: I'm assuming that gets passed down to the OS level as an appropriate timeout
2020-09-22T10:42:57Z eta: (on the read syscall or whatever I/O is happening)
2020-09-22T10:43:48Z scymtym: yes, and deadlines also handle restarted OS operations and time that passes between OS level operations
2020-09-22T10:44:15Z scymtym: and deadlines compose in a sensible way, if i remember correctly
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2020-09-22T10:49:54Z daphnis: how come #'compile-file seems to return 3 values, first filename and then 2 nils?  i thought a function could only return one value?
2020-09-22T10:50:58Z jackdaniel: in common lisp functions may return multiple values
2020-09-22T10:51:05Z jackdaniel: there are operators which act on it
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2020-09-22T10:51:30Z jackdaniel: so you don't have to create a structure to handle multiple values (i.e if you want to concieve two distinct invormation pieces)
2020-09-22T10:51:38Z jackdaniel: (values 1 2 3) ; <- returns three values
2020-09-22T10:51:54Z scymtym: daphnis: common lisp functions can return zero, one or more values (for example FLOOR returns the quotient and the remainder). COMPILE-FILE indicates nuances of compilation success using the second and third value
2020-09-22T10:51:57Z jackdaniel: (multiple-value-bind (a b c) (my-function) (+ a b c+) ; <- binds a b c
2020-09-22T10:52:14Z jackdaniel: (and adds results)
2020-09-22T10:52:37Z daphnis: interesting.  thanks
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2020-09-22T10:53:25Z jackdaniel: s/conceive/convey/
2020-09-22T10:54:51Z thijso: I must be doing something wrong, but not sure what... If I try to (ql:quickload :alexandria) in sbcl (in emacs slime), I get the error: "ALEXANDRIA is a nickname for the package ALEXANDRIA.0.DEV"  [Condition of type SB-KERNEL:SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR]
2020-09-22T10:55:24Z thijso: Searching in google doesn't really give me any relevant results... Anyone know what I should do to fix this?
2020-09-22T10:55:36Z jackdaniel: do you type this form in a fresh cl image?
2020-09-22T10:55:40Z jackdaniel: or you have something loaded already?
2020-09-22T10:55:40Z thijso: yep
2020-09-22T10:56:00Z thijso: oh, wait, maybe something loaded already...
2020-09-22T10:56:07Z eta: also this is probably better suited for #sbcl maybe (if so, I'll go ask in there), but is accessing a slot of a class threadsafe?
2020-09-22T10:57:25Z jackdaniel: if you have one thread, then yes :) otherwise no
2020-09-22T10:58:06Z eta: ...interesting, given I have "production" code that assumes it is and it hasn't fallen over yet >_>
2020-09-22T10:58:16Z eta: because I stash a lock in one of the slots and use that to synchronize access to the rest of the class
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2020-09-22T10:59:36Z eta: jackdaniel, how about if the slot value never gets changed?
2020-09-22T10:59:57Z jackdaniel: you need to define what do you mean by thread-safety
2020-09-22T11:00:09Z jackdaniel: two concurrent threads may read from the same memory without issues
2020-09-22T11:00:47Z eta: well in this case, I'm storing a lock in a slot of a class
2020-09-22T11:01:01Z jackdaniel: problems start when the content of memory changes and you do different things based on the content
2020-09-22T11:01:03Z eta: and locking it from multiple threads, and then accessing other slots within the critical section
2020-09-22T11:01:25Z eta: so that should be fine, right?
2020-09-22T11:01:41Z jackdaniel: if it is a lock which just sits there, then all threads simply read it, and locking is a thread-safe operation (they would have no use if it weren't)
2020-09-22T11:01:43Z eta: because presumably all the slot stores is a pointer to the lock, which never moves
2020-09-22T11:01:49Z eta: yeah
2020-09-22T11:01:53Z eta: cool, thanks
2020-09-22T11:01:56Z jackdaniel: sure
2020-09-22T11:02:09Z eta: but if you're modifying slot values, then that needs a lock to synchronize the loads / stores
2020-09-22T11:02:14Z eta: because otherwise you have a data race, right?
2020-09-22T11:02:31Z eta: (unless you use sb-ext:atomic-incf and friends)
2020-09-22T11:02:47Z scymtym: eta: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#index-compare_002dand_002dswap says it can work with SLOT-VALUE
2020-09-22T11:03:07Z eta: oh, neat
2020-09-22T11:03:19Z eta: the issue I have with those atomic functions is you don't get to specify a memory ordering anywhere
2020-09-22T11:03:24Z eta: i.e. Acquire / Release / SeqCst
2020-09-22T11:03:32Z eta: which seems required
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2020-09-22T11:03:51Z eta: or does that always emit memory fences / etc?
2020-09-22T11:05:55Z no-defun-allowed: 13.7 has a list of functions and macros that use barriers.
2020-09-22T11:07:24Z eta: oh right, so you can do them manually, thanks no-defun-allowed :)
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2020-09-22T11:37:04Z Josh_2: ello
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2020-09-22T11:50:32Z jmercouris: hello Josh_2
2020-09-22T11:50:53Z jmercouris: eta: consider using locks from another author rather than inventing your own
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2020-09-22T11:51:11Z eta: jmercouris, oh no, I'm just using the SBCL mutexes
2020-09-22T11:51:51Z eta: I didn't actually go for the cursed options in the end; was just curious :)
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2020-09-22T13:04:06Z joel135: It is pretty cool that this works https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Bwb3uhnZ/
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2020-09-22T13:09:42Z beach: joel135: I really recommend that you give a short summary of what to expect when the link is clicked on.
2020-09-22T13:10:22Z beach: joel135: I never click on links without it, because that is typical troll behavior to post a link to something unrelated, for whatever reason I don't know, increase traffic perhaps.
2020-09-22T13:10:45Z joel135: It is my IRC client's own pastebin.
2020-09-22T13:11:04Z joel135: I posted an emacs lisp session.
2020-09-22T13:11:20Z jmercouris: this channel is not about Elisp, sorry
2020-09-22T13:11:24Z beach: So, Emacs Lisp is off topic here.
2020-09-22T13:11:30Z joel135: Really?
2020-09-22T13:11:37Z beach: Yes, the subject says so.
2020-09-22T13:11:43Z beach: it is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2020-09-22T13:11:45Z joel135: Is my code not valid lisp code?
2020-09-22T13:12:01Z Josh_2: yes it is
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2020-09-22T13:13:03Z beach: joel135: "lisp" or "Lisp" is not a term with a widely agreed-upon definition.  Now Common Lisp is such a term, and that is the topic of this channel.
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2020-09-22T13:15:11Z dlowe: you might try ##lisp for the wider family of languages
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2020-09-22T13:17:01Z pve: joel135: it's difficult to see why your snippet is cool if you give zero explanation, at least I was left scratching my head because the cool part wasn't immediately obvious
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2020-09-22T13:20:03Z joel135: ok
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2020-09-22T13:21:03Z joel135: I will start any new general lisp discussion in ##lisp then.
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2020-09-22T13:21:55Z joel135: As for my snippet, the cool thing is that the nested , is matched to the ` that I wanted it to match, when there were several ``.
2020-09-22T13:24:16Z ldb: three comma programmer
2020-09-22T13:24:20Z ldb: great!
2020-09-22T13:24:49Z joel135 googles
2020-09-22T13:25:29Z ldb: real C programmer uses three stars, real lisp programmer uses three commas
2020-09-22T13:25:57Z joel135: I see
2020-09-22T13:28:00Z joel135: (& <-> `) and (* <-> ,) but also (* <-> apply)
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2020-09-22T13:31:55Z joel135: err I meant (* <-> eval)
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2020-09-22T18:03:35Z dbotton_m2: Hello, is there a way to define this function so that the compiler at compile time would recognize the lack of a parameter or local variable
2020-09-22T18:03:36Z dbotton_m2: (defun test (&key (b 20) (c 21))  (format t "a=~A b=~A c=~A~%" a b c))
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2020-09-22T18:06:23Z dbotton_m2: I am teaching myself lisp currently but come from the Ada-verse
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2020-09-22T18:06:54Z Bike: you mean, so that you get a warning about 'a' being undefined?
2020-09-22T18:07:00Z dbotton_m2: Yes
2020-09-22T18:07:26Z dbotton_m2: In Ada the compiler would pull a gun on you for that
2020-09-22T18:07:30Z Bike: i would expect you to get that warning without any special action on your part.
2020-09-22T18:07:54Z Bike: what implementation/environment are you using?
2020-09-22T18:08:14Z Bike: that said, lisp is going to be a lot less strict than ada in general
2020-09-22T18:08:15Z dbotton_m2: Lisp on an iPad
2020-09-22T18:08:24Z dbotton_m2: Which is elc i think
2020-09-22T18:08:34Z dbotton_m2: Ecl
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2020-09-22T18:09:40Z Bike: i haven't used ecl but i'm surprised there's no warning. maybe it only comes up if you use compile-file rather than repl entry.
2020-09-22T18:09:50Z dbotton_m2: My idea is too see how strict I can get things
2020-09-22T18:10:05Z dbotton_m2: Ok, i can give that a try
2020-09-22T18:10:33Z Bike: the ipad version could also be weird, i don't know.
2020-09-22T18:11:24Z dbotton_m2: No difference, I’ll try later at computer
2020-09-22T18:12:00Z dbotton_m2: The iPad version is very nice. I was able to do my tests on concurrency on it use QT
2020-09-22T18:12:28Z dbotton_m2: I was surprised, never thought something as full would be allowed through process
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2020-09-22T18:18:13Z dbotton_m2: Do you think there would be a way to setup a macro to use that could detect if its parameter is with in scope? (Sorry for ignorance of terms or capabilities)
2020-09-22T18:18:37Z dbotton_m2: (Is Valid a)
2020-09-22T18:19:01Z dbotton_m2: Sort of think
2020-09-22T18:19:36Z dbotton_m2: So if forced programmer discipline to use could help to avoid this sort of being left to runtime
2020-09-22T18:19:57Z Bike: I would expect an implementation to warn on an unknown variable on its own initiative. The fact that you're not seeing that is weird.
2020-09-22T18:20:29Z dbotton_m2: Well a could be global and maybe a REPL issue as you point out
2020-09-22T18:20:32Z Bike: Usually if you put that in a file and compiled it (with say SLIME) the compilation would fail and an error would pop up.
2020-09-22T18:20:47Z Bike: If a is global then the code isn't actually problematic, so naturally there would be no notice.
2020-09-22T18:21:04Z dbotton_m2: Do lisp macros have that sort of scope data available to them?
2020-09-22T18:21:24Z Bike: There is no standard way to determine what variables are bound in a macroexpansion environment.
2020-09-22T18:21:48Z dbotton_m2: I’ll be able to check soon on a pc let you know
2020-09-22T18:21:52Z Bike: Some implementations export ways to find out as an extension, but they're infrequently used
2020-09-22T18:22:16Z Bike: Generally with what you're talking about the way to go would be to improve the implementation, not to implement macros or something yourself to work aorund its faults
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2020-09-22T18:45:01Z dbotton_m2: Using sbcl it through up a warning
2020-09-22T18:46:33Z dbotton_m2: I agree and certainly the idea. I am just first trying (while learning) to see how far the language itself gets me
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2020-09-22T21:51:44Z White_Flame: dbotton: the local variables in scope would be part of the &environment parameter to the macro
2020-09-22T21:52:03Z White_Flame: but the contents of it are implementation-specific, and may or may not contain anything
2020-09-22T21:52:20Z White_Flame: there might be a portability library for accessing information from it, though
2020-09-22T21:53:08Z mfiano: there's a few, with Bike's being one of them
2020-09-22T21:53:50Z White_Flame: when you compile (defun foo () a), for instance, it would compile in an access to the assumed global/special variable A
2020-09-22T21:54:15Z White_Flame: you do not need to declare it beforehand, and it might be defined later on
2020-09-22T21:54:37Z White_Flame: so it's not an error condition to refer to variables that way
2020-09-22T21:55:02Z White_Flame: although certainly implementations are free to give style warnings and such recommending you do it cleaner
2020-09-22T21:56:24Z White_Flame: however, when it comes to your macro situation, it's probably better to leave the error checking to the lisp compiler, instead of trying to poke into everything yourself, unless there's really good cause
2020-09-22T21:57:34Z Bike: usually implementations issue a full warning (meaning compilation fails) for an undefined variable, since while defining variables later might work, it's not defined to work
2020-09-22T21:57:38Z Bike: unlike with undefined functions
2020-09-22T21:58:35Z White_Flame: huh
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2020-09-23T00:22:29Z dbotton: thanks <White_Flame>
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2020-09-23T03:04:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-23T03:05:15Z moon-child: morning beach
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2020-09-23T03:17:28Z edgar-rft: morning to everyone plus their children :-)
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2020-09-23T03:29:17Z White_Flame: good morning, noone.
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2020-09-23T05:55:38Z lukego: good morning
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2020-09-23T05:55:53Z beach: Hello lukego.
2020-09-23T05:56:59Z lukego: I have been distracted learning to solder but learning to write lisp code to design PCBs is visible on the horizon again :)
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2020-09-23T06:40:05Z ramin: Hi everyone. I was just curious if there are any Scheme libraries that try to ease the transition for people familiar with Common Lisp to Scheme by providing as many of the features in X3J13 as possible. For example, in Scheme a function like "funcall" is unnecessary, the kind of library I am talking about would provide a "funcall" macro as a convenience. Is there any such project out there?
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2020-09-23T06:40:51Z beach: ramin: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.  You may have more luck in #scheme.
2020-09-23T06:41:06Z ramin: beach: thanks anyway
2020-09-23T06:41:25Z beach: ramin: Furthermore, Scheme lacks lots of features, like CLOS.
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2020-09-23T06:41:55Z beach: That would be a big chunk for a library independent of any Scheme implementation.
2020-09-23T06:42:03Z aeth: ramin: My Scheme implementation inside of Common Lisp will eventually provide most of Common Lisp to Scheme, but it's obviously not done via portable Scheme.
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2020-09-23T06:43:05Z beach: ramin: The real question, though, is: Why on earth would you abandon Common Lisp in favor of Scheme?
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2020-09-23T06:43:53Z ramin: beach: I'd prefer to avoid a flame war, ha ha!
2020-09-23T06:44:33Z ramin: aeth: sounds intersting. Kind of the inverse of what I am looking for.
2020-09-23T06:44:53Z aeth: ramin: because it's easier (and more efficient) to implement a small language inside of a large one than the other way around
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2020-09-23T06:47:05Z ramin: aeth: indeed. I've seen scheme implemented in many languages.
2020-09-23T06:47:13Z ramin: I know several Scheme implementations provide their own version of CLOS, but as far as I know it isn't standardized. There may be a SRFI about it, I can't find one at the momemnt.
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2020-09-23T06:48:24Z aeth: It's unlikely to ever be uncontroversial enough to be portable between implementations.
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2020-09-23T06:50:14Z aeth: Scheme tends to be very anti-generics, too. (I'm impressed + is in the language.)
2020-09-23T06:50:26Z markasoftware: does sbcl --non-interactive imply --disable-ldb?
2020-09-23T06:51:01Z aeth: ramin: Anyway, I probably should link to this: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme
2020-09-23T06:51:25Z ramin: aeth: thanks, I appreciate it!
2020-09-23T06:52:13Z aeth: In particular, https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/issues/15
2020-09-23T06:52:32Z moon-child: ramin: I don't know of anything complete (in my game engine, which embeds scheme, I made implementations of incf/decf--which should be inc! and dec! for syle but--and 1+/1-).  But, why on earth would you want funcall in a lisp-1?
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2020-09-23T06:52:56Z aeth: moon-child: Ironically, funcall is one of the few things I didn't intend to expose.
2020-09-23T06:54:47Z ramin: moon-child: aeth: wouldn't funcall in Scheme essentially be a NO-OP?
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2020-09-23T06:58:44Z moon-child: well, it would be a macro.  Something like (define-macro (funcall fun . args) `(,fun ,@args))
2020-09-23T06:58:49Z aeth: ^
2020-09-23T06:59:28Z aeth: (Except that's not portable Scheme, either, since that could be define-macro or defmacro or nonexistent since Scheme only requires hygienic macros.)
2020-09-23T07:00:14Z ramin: moon-child: right.
2020-09-23T07:00:37Z moon-child: scheme is ... _very_ fragmented.  It's hard even to write portable cl, if you wanna do e.g. threads
2020-09-23T07:01:21Z aeth: Yes, if you want to directly port CL into Scheme, there's basically no reason to use portable Scheme, and the only Scheme that would be good for the task is the still-incomplete Airship Scheme.
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2020-09-23T07:13:10Z jasom: I wonder how hard it would be to optimize (incf (gethash KEY HT 0)) to only perform a single hash-table lookup when KEY is already in HT.
2020-09-23T07:14:53Z moon-child: (setf (gethash) (... (gethash))) is probably a pretty common pattern
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2020-09-23T07:15:05Z no-defun-allowed: It's doable, but it may not be a good idea.
2020-09-23T07:15:07Z beach: jasom: I am guessing not very hard.
2020-09-23T07:15:26Z jasom: For update-heavy inputs, changing it to have a cons of the value, and modifying the cons gets a rather large speedup.
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2020-09-23T07:15:56Z no-defun-allowed: Suppose we had a hash table based on a single vector (open hashing), and that vector looked like [__XXM] where Xs are removed mappings, M is the mapping you want, and _ is empty.
2020-09-23T07:15:59Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: out of curiosity, how did you see that message, since you joined well after it was sent?
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2020-09-23T07:16:31Z no-defun-allowed: You may start searching at an X, in which case you're doing more work.
2020-09-23T07:17:02Z jasom: no-defun-allowed: my idea is to find M, then use it for both the read and the write; why is that ever a bad idea?
2020-09-23T07:17:20Z no-defun-allowed: If we noted that the mapping was dead, we could replace it with the mapping we want, saving time in the future would we search again.
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2020-09-23T07:17:36Z jasom: ah, I see
2020-09-23T07:17:50Z jasom: in this particular case keys are never deleted
2020-09-23T07:17:56Z no-defun-allowed: On the other hand, I wonder what happens to the old M if that happens. I may need to experiment.
2020-09-23T07:18:07Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, then you wouldn't have removed mappings and it would be a good idea.
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2020-09-23T07:21:23Z no-defun-allowed: moon-child: Magic, and/or the broken Matrix-IRC bridge.
2020-09-23T07:21:30Z no-defun-allowed: Mostly the former.
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2020-09-23T07:21:39Z moon-child: ahh, matrix
2020-09-23T07:25:25Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, the one hash table implementation that does linear probing which I have experience with (Luckless) cannot move mappings like that, so it's a moot point. But a few hash-table related optimisations aren't doable with some sensible implementation details.
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2020-09-23T07:33:07Z markasoftware: is catching sb-sys:interactive-interrupt the only way to catch any sort of OS signal in SBCL without using ffi?
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2020-09-23T07:33:11Z markasoftware: ie, is there any way to catch sigterm?
2020-09-23T07:33:26Z markasoftware: (interactive-interrupt only catches sigint, which i can probably make do with if i have to)
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2020-09-23T07:38:18Z no-defun-allowed: There is trivial-signal which abstracts away the FFI stuff.
2020-09-23T07:41:10Z moon-child: markasoftware: there was a posix-abstraction-layer-ish thingy (works on windows tho).  But I don't remember if it handled signals
2020-09-23T07:41:14Z scymtym: the SBCL-specific way would be (sb-unix:enable-interrupt sb-unix:sigterm #'HANDLER)
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2020-09-23T08:15:47Z markasoftware: thanks, i think I'll stick with the simplest option
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2020-09-23T10:41:11Z shka_: hi
2020-09-23T10:41:33Z shka_: i am looking for library that works like cl-who but for json
2020-09-23T10:41:35Z no-defun-allowed: Hello shka_
2020-09-23T10:41:47Z shka_: any recommendations?
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2020-09-23T10:48:27Z jackdaniel: wasn't json a data format?
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2020-09-23T10:49:01Z jackdaniel: there are libraries which allow parsing and encoding json from lisp data
2020-09-23T10:49:42Z jackdaniel: or do you want something like (with-json (:array 1 2 3)) ? I think that yason has somewhat compatible approach
2020-09-23T10:51:25Z Xach: I wound up making some helper functions with short names and using functional encoding from yason.
2020-09-23T10:51:55Z Xach: so something like (json (table "foo" (array 1 2 3) "bar" (true)))
2020-09-23T10:52:02Z Xach: not exactly that, but not far off
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2020-09-23T11:12:35Z flip214: (yason:encode (alexandria:plist-to-hashtable "foo" (vector 1 2 3) "bar" 'yason:true))
2020-09-23T11:14:08Z shka_: jackdaniel: yeash, something like this
2020-09-23T11:14:31Z shka_: Xach: that's what i am doing right now, i wondered if there is anything better
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2020-09-23T11:37:29Z Xach: shka_: how would you improve it?
2020-09-23T11:37:37Z Xach: How much more concise do you wish to get?
2020-09-23T11:38:06Z jackdaniel: (whooosh) ; <- that concise
2020-09-23T11:38:24Z shka_: Xach: not more concise, but perhaps less of code on my side
2020-09-23T11:38:44Z shka_: so the source code is easier to read for people
2020-09-23T11:39:10Z shka_: at least if person already know library
2020-09-23T11:40:07Z shka_: but i question this thought process now
2020-09-23T11:41:19Z Xach: shka_: ok. well, this approach requires possibly 5 to 8 functions
2020-09-23T11:41:22Z Xach: and they are short
2020-09-23T11:41:33Z shka_: yes, indeed
2020-09-23T11:41:52Z shka_: i guess i will stick to it
2020-09-23T11:42:06Z Xach: if it does not work for you in the end i won't feel bad, just trying to share what i've tried
2020-09-23T11:42:26Z Xach: i am open to nice ways to do better in a given context
2020-09-23T11:42:30Z shka_: i am sure this will be ok
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2020-09-23T13:03:44Z drl: Hi everyone. Is "com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file" no longer available from quicklisp?
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2020-09-23T13:04:38Z Xach: drl: that's right
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2020-09-23T13:09:46Z drl: Xach, is there any way to get it
2020-09-23T13:09:58Z drl: into my quicklisp?
2020-09-23T13:10:11Z Xach: drl: you can download it and put it somewhere asdf can find it.
2020-09-23T13:10:26Z Xach: i use the ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ directory but there are other options too
2020-09-23T13:11:40Z drl: Xach, OK, thanks.
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2020-09-23T13:14:16Z dra: Hello!
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2020-09-23T13:16:16Z Josh_2: hi
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2020-09-23T13:23:30Z ruffianeo: question: if I have a function foo which returns a lambda - does it make sense to try writing: (disassemble (foo))?
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2020-09-23T13:24:42Z Bike: that should work, sure
2020-09-23T13:25:06Z ruffianeo: and if my sbcl in slime in emacs then hangs so I have to kill it? What does that tell me?
2020-09-23T13:25:17Z Bike: it hung when you did that?
2020-09-23T13:25:21Z ruffianeo: yes
2020-09-23T13:26:33Z ldb`: I dont think disassemble can take closure as argument
2020-09-23T13:27:19Z Xach: ldb`: why do you think that?
2020-09-23T13:27:30Z Bike: maybe FOO itself hung?
2020-09-23T13:27:34Z Xach: ldb`: the spec says it can disassemble a function, and that is a function.
2020-09-23T13:28:01Z ruffianeo: no - foo only has as body something like (lambda (stream) .... )
2020-09-23T13:28:22Z Bike: well, i would try to get a bcktrce, otherwise i have no idea
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2020-09-23T13:28:55Z ldb`: clhs disassemble
2020-09-23T13:28:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_disass.htm
2020-09-23T13:29:15Z ldb`: "Arguments and Values: fn---an extended function designator or a lambda expression. "
2020-09-23T13:29:22Z Bike: functions are function designators
2020-09-23T13:29:33Z Bike: they designate themselves
2020-09-23T13:29:35Z Bike: i just tried (defun foo (x) (lambda () x)) (disassemble (foo 6)) and it worked fine
2020-09-23T13:29:38Z Bike: in sbcl
2020-09-23T13:29:53Z Bike: and clasp
2020-09-23T13:30:21Z ruffianeo: For a while I thought it is because it is a recursive function (the lambda) and I tried limited the inlining depth... but that did not help either
2020-09-23T13:30:39Z Bike: can you share the source of foo?
2020-09-23T13:30:47Z ruffianeo: I could make a gist of it
2020-09-23T13:30:50Z Bike: does a call (foo) by itself hang?
2020-09-23T13:31:15Z ruffianeo: hm... I tried so many things since yesterday - I don't remember it all :) I will gist it
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2020-09-23T13:33:59Z ruffianeo: https://gist.github.com/ruffianeo/01b9fabf9413e6dc671e68ae1b61f2e4
2020-09-23T13:34:53Z Bike: which function is it
2020-09-23T13:34:59Z ruffianeo: scan-variation
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2020-09-23T13:36:25Z Bike: calling this by itself hangs here
2020-09-23T13:36:32Z schweers: scan-variation doesn’t return a lambda, does it?
2020-09-23T13:36:43Z Bike: it does. between calls seq which returns a function.
2020-09-23T13:36:51Z Bike: however, it's possible the token or bamboozle calls hang.
2020-09-23T13:36:54Z ruffianeo: yes - that is also not expected - yes the lambda produced by (between....) it is some kind of parser combinator
2020-09-23T13:37:21Z Bike: so i mean, what i'm saying is this has nothing to do with disassemble, it's just that your function itself hangs.
2020-09-23T13:37:23Z schweers: Oh, then nevermin
2020-09-23T13:37:51Z ruffianeo: yeah - but it should not hang ... what can I do to find out what is going wrong?
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2020-09-23T13:38:52Z Bike: if you can't get a backtrace by interrupting, you can try the individusal calls
2020-09-23T13:39:07Z Bike: it looks like between and seq should return immediately, so maybe token or bamboozle is broken
2020-09-23T13:39:37Z Bike: or alt, or opt, or one-or-more
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2020-09-23T13:39:41Z ruffianeo: bamboozle is right at the top of the file - it just wraps the function given into a lambda and traces to stdout
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2020-09-23T13:40:07Z ruffianeo: the whole code worked as expected before I extended it with scan-variation
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2020-09-23T13:40:16Z Bike: i mean, just look at scan-variation, see what it's calling, figure out what could be hanging
2020-09-23T13:40:25Z ruffianeo: and that is the first case where there is mututal recursion of the resulting functions
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2020-09-23T13:40:43Z schweers: Using TRACE might be an option
2020-09-23T13:40:50Z ruffianeo: does nothing
2020-09-23T13:41:03Z ruffianeo: I tried (trace scan-variation) but it hangs silently
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2020-09-23T13:41:15Z Bike: well you'll have to trace the functions scan-variation calls.
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2020-09-23T13:41:42Z ruffianeo: how do I do that?
2020-09-23T13:41:49Z Bike: (trace whatever)
2020-09-23T13:41:53Z Bike: but actually i see the problem.
2020-09-23T13:42:02Z Bike: scan-variation calls scan-black-move which calls scan-variation.
2020-09-23T13:42:08Z ruffianeo: yes
2020-09-23T13:42:16Z Bike: ...so i mean, it will keep recursing.
2020-09-23T13:42:26Z ruffianeo: but when calling scan-variation that code is not executed - it is just a builder
2020-09-23T13:42:32Z Bike: it sure looks executed to me.
2020-09-23T13:42:52Z ruffianeo: ohh....ahh...... you make me think
2020-09-23T13:43:00Z Bike: lisp is an eager language. when you write (between (token "(") ...) token will be called before between is.
2020-09-23T13:43:04Z Bike: and so on and so forth.
2020-09-23T13:43:22Z ruffianeo: ah yes - I did something similar in haskell before and haskell is lazy...
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2020-09-23T13:44:15Z ruffianeo: so this whole approach is not working in lisp?
2020-09-23T13:44:33Z Bike: i tried (trace pgn-tools::scan-variation) and called scan-variation and it immediately started printing out infinite calls. it did not "hang silently"
2020-09-23T13:44:45Z Bike: that would have made the problem more obvious.
2020-09-23T13:44:55Z ruffianeo: hm... I think I tried that
2020-09-23T13:45:01Z Bike: apparently you did not.
2020-09-23T13:45:13Z Bike: and no, you can do this in lisp, you'll just have to put more thought into evaluation order, i guess.
2020-09-23T13:45:26Z Bike: if you wrap a call in a lambda the call won't be executed until the lambda is called. you can delay in that fashion.
2020-09-23T13:47:32Z ruffianeo: oh yes - now I see that trace - that is something :)
2020-09-23T13:47:54Z Bike: why did you say you tried trace if you didn't
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2020-09-23T13:48:16Z ruffianeo: because it was the first time I tried to trace something and I might have messed it up somehow
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2020-09-23T13:52:00Z ruffianeo: ideas on how to delay that recursive call?
2020-09-23T13:52:15Z Bike: wrap it in a lambda like i said.
2020-09-23T13:52:32Z Bike: you'll have to decide at what points you want delays.
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2020-09-23T13:54:20Z ruffianeo: so I would do something in scan-black-move like (... (spaced (lambda (stream) (scan-variation stream)))?
2020-09-23T13:54:47Z Bike: sure.
2020-09-23T13:54:50Z Xach: if you find yourself doing that a lot, you can define helpers that make lambdas for you, too.
2020-09-23T13:54:56Z Bike: i can't give you much more detail without understanding what your application does.
2020-09-23T13:55:28Z ruffianeo: yes I was thinking about a (defun delay-scanner (scanner) (lambda (stream) (scanner stream)))
2020-09-23T13:56:05Z Bike: you'd want (funcall scanner stream), but yeah that could work.
2020-09-23T13:56:10Z ruffianeo: yes
2020-09-23T13:56:11Z Bike: er, well
2020-09-23T13:56:25Z Bike: i mean, that's the same as just returning scanner immediately, actually
2020-09-23T13:56:57Z Bike: if you do (delay-scanner whatever), whatever will be evaluated before delay-scanner is called
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2020-09-23T13:57:13Z ruffianeo: quite the conundrum
2020-09-23T13:57:52Z Bike: you can just write (lambda (stream) (scan-variation stream)) and stuff like that
2020-09-23T13:58:00Z Bike: possibly using a macro to reduce the repetition
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2020-09-23T13:59:19Z ruffianeo: in that parsec port to f#, they do some fancy forward-decl thing and they have it wrapped in some reference type
2020-09-23T14:02:01Z ruffianeo: that would also be an option here - (defparameter *scan-var* nil), then have the scan-black-move functions use that *scan-var* and I setf the *scan-var* once
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2020-09-23T14:07:24Z ruffianeo: thanks a lot!
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2020-09-23T14:23:49Z ruffianeo: and it works - updated the gist with fix if someone cares
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2020-09-23T14:24:42Z Bike: happy to be of service
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2020-09-23T15:08:01Z mseddon: are there any particularly well written, idiomatic lisp projects out there that I can learn style from?
2020-09-23T15:08:29Z mseddon: (hopefully more on the smaller, easily digestible side)
2020-09-23T15:09:11Z beach: I am fairly proud of Cluffer: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer
2020-09-23T15:09:33Z mseddon: beach: Thanks, I also love the name :)
2020-09-23T15:09:41Z beach: Heh, thanks.
2020-09-23T15:09:49Z beach: It uses CLOS quite a lot.  It has randomly-generated tests.  It has documentation.
2020-09-23T15:10:26Z beach: And it is not hard to understand what it does.  Just an editor buffer implementation, except highly optimized in terms of performance and in terms of multiple views.
2020-09-23T15:10:42Z mseddon: Actually I had to basically build a totally live lexical scanning text editor buffer on top of visual studio code to get sane lisp intentation for Clojure in Calva :(
2020-09-23T15:11:18Z beach: Hmm.
2020-09-23T15:11:34Z mseddon: It works, but it's stupid.
2020-09-23T15:12:33Z mseddon: some day I hope to write a proper lisp / slime plugin for vscode, it will, alas, need to use something similar for now.
2020-09-23T15:13:03Z mseddon: (and if you modify the readtable, All Bets Are Off, because I have no idea how to handle that.)
2020-09-23T15:13:40Z beach: That's the problem we aim to solve with Second Climacs.
2020-09-23T15:13:51Z mseddon: lul. the name... may need work
2020-09-23T15:14:06Z beach: Not at all.
2020-09-23T15:14:29Z beach: We will use Eclector to parse the editor buffer, so it will be the actual Lisp reader that determines the meaning of the buffer contents.
2020-09-23T15:14:29Z mseddon: I was thinking of an editor, DREI, "DREI replaces EMACS immediately"
2020-09-23T15:14:58Z mseddon: right. but if I have like 10k lines of file
2020-09-23T15:15:08Z beach: Incremental parsing.
2020-09-23T15:15:08Z mseddon: because e.g. this is a data text file of sexpr, rather than code
2020-09-23T15:15:12Z beach: It has been published.
2020-09-23T15:15:14Z mseddon: yeah, so long as you can restart it's fine
2020-09-23T15:15:37Z mseddon: cool. I had a couple of sneaky ways I could optimize that based on parenthesis links etc.
2020-09-23T15:15:52Z mseddon: do you have a title I can search for?
2020-09-23T15:15:53Z ebrasca: beach: Hi
2020-09-23T15:16:15Z beach: mseddon: For each editing operation, it determines which (recursivce) READs might need to be called again, and it repairs the whole analysis incrementally.
2020-09-23T15:16:37Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
2020-09-23T15:16:47Z beach: mseddon: Give me a minute.
2020-09-23T15:16:57Z mseddon: nice, yeah. That is nothing I got to, but I did at least glimpse that you could get there. It's vastly unexplored gold out there I think.
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2020-09-23T15:17:20Z mseddon: thanks
2020-09-23T15:17:30Z beach: mseddon: http://metamodular.com/incremental-parsing.pdf
2020-09-23T15:18:16Z mseddon: beach: Fantastic! Thanks! I hope this will come in handy.
2020-09-23T15:18:43Z beach: Good luck.
2020-09-23T15:21:15Z mseddon: btw a very good project would be a lisp Language Server Protocol to subsume regular swank in most modern IDEs and text editors, too.
2020-09-23T15:21:31Z beach: Already done.  scymtym has an implementation.
2020-09-23T15:21:55Z tychoish: slime is so much better than lsp though :( ;)
2020-09-23T15:22:00Z mseddon: i shall check his github, ty. :), and ty scymtym :D
2020-09-23T15:22:12Z mseddon: tychoish: meh. you can hack extensions onto it, to support that, it's no issue.
2020-09-23T15:22:16Z beach: tychoish: And still not that good.
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2020-09-23T15:22:36Z mseddon: but yeah, it's still worlds better than the horror show editing lisp is currently in most editors.
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2020-09-23T15:22:49Z tychoish: fair. I also think it's a good idea to have lisp lsp stuff
2020-09-23T15:23:01Z tychoish: even if I don't want to actually use it :)
2020-09-23T15:23:16Z mseddon: It's a bitch to say "Learn lisp! Oh, yeah, learn emacs, it's as old as ITS"
2020-09-23T15:23:35Z mseddon: it really only leaves the most persistent to appreciate it.
2020-09-23T15:23:39Z tychoish: for sure.
2020-09-23T15:23:56Z beach: So Cluffer is an implementation of an abstract data type that I call "editable sequence", except that its protocols are adapted to text editors, so the sequence is in two layers: lines and items within a line.
2020-09-23T15:23:57Z beach: The test suite is particularly interesting in that it generates random operations for the real implementation, and the same operations on a trivial but slow implementation of the same protocols.  It then compares the results.  This technique for testing gives excellent coverage and is unlikely to miss any edge cases.
2020-09-23T15:24:35Z beach: mseddon: You should direct those people to the presentation by "Uncle Bob" that I referred to the other day.
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2020-09-23T15:25:06Z beach: mseddon: He says that Emacs, because it is written in Lisp, will become better than every IDE out there.
2020-09-23T15:25:32Z mseddon: beach: I think so too, but not like it is today.
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2020-09-23T15:25:54Z beach: I don't think so, but some people are impressed by what Uncle Bob says.
2020-09-23T15:25:58Z mseddon: beach: But I want my IDE written in lisp, almost like a lispm.
2020-09-23T15:26:06Z mseddon: emacs is sort of the 80/20 rule of that.
2020-09-23T15:26:09Z beach: mseddon: We are working on it.
2020-09-23T15:26:16Z mseddon: me too. fwiw :)
2020-09-23T15:26:26Z chrsnjk: hi, about lisp reading in emacs, I recently tried to make "Smart syntax highlighting for dynamic languageCase: Common Lisp in Emacs" work, the code is somewhere on my laptop
2020-09-23T15:26:29Z mseddon: I have much experimenting to do first, but I will catch up with you later.
2020-09-23T15:26:33Z chrsnjk: i had to extract it from the pdf
2020-09-23T15:27:16Z beach: chrsnjk: What does it do?
2020-09-23T15:27:20Z chrsnjk: it is a bit hackish and does not work in all cases
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2020-09-23T15:27:30Z chrsnjk: it asks swank what kind of symbol is under point
2020-09-23T15:27:43Z chrsnjk: so that it can highlight local variables, etc more sensibly
2020-09-23T15:28:22Z beach: How does it distinguish between a local variable and (say) a class name?
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2020-09-23T15:30:34Z chrsnjk: I believe it has its own code walker, with an environment that contains bindings (not 100% correct approach)
2020-09-23T15:30:46Z beach: Nice.
2020-09-23T15:31:25Z chrsnjk: found the link https://www.theseus.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/23735/thesis.pdf
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2020-09-23T15:40:46Z Xach: Ok, I have spent a little time making the errors that block quicklisp releases more clear at a glance!
2020-09-23T15:41:34Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-09-20/failure-report.html is the old version of my primitive report. it summarizes but it requires a bit of clicking around to find the real problems
2020-09-23T15:41:52Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-09-23/failure-report.html is the new version, where the critical info (hopefully) is all in one place
2020-09-23T15:42:13Z Josh_2: Very nice
2020-09-23T15:47:54Z Xach: as i test newer SBCLs that break a lot, this may help focus in on the scope of issues.
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2020-09-23T17:24:40Z PuercoPop: mseddon: there already is one iirc, cxxr has an LSP server, although it wraps swank.
2020-09-23T17:26:08Z PuercoPop: I thought of starting one to developer a decent VSCode extension for Lisp, but after I started writing the extension for VSCode I found out their extension API sucks and one can't even properly take advantage of their built in browser.
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2020-09-23T17:42:58Z user51: is seibel's practical common lisp a good introduction? i already have some programming experience
2020-09-23T17:45:16Z mfiano: It appears fare-quasiquote broke varjo. That's unfortunate, since Baggers left Lisp about a year ago. I hope it doesn't get dropped.
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2020-09-23T17:48:56Z Josh_2: mfiano: thats a shame
2020-09-23T17:49:04Z Josh_2: user51: yes it is
2020-09-23T18:00:07Z user51: any other books that might be of interest?
2020-09-23T18:01:49Z Josh_2: all the CL books :P
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2020-09-23T18:03:49Z user51: come on, i'll never get any CL done that way :P
2020-09-23T18:04:39Z user51: also: any source code i could learn from?
2020-09-23T18:05:00Z wsinatra: Baggers left lisp?
2020-09-23T18:06:31Z jackdaniel: no, he is just focused on creating a (non-lisp) game, so temporarily he has less time for lisp
2020-09-23T18:07:10Z wsinatra: that makes more sense
2020-09-23T18:07:18Z jackdaniel: he comes to #lispgames from time to time;
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2020-09-23T18:08:33Z Josh_2: jackdaniel: I thought that might be the case
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2020-09-23T18:11:45Z jackdaniel: this is of some relevance: http://techsnuffle.com/2018/12/07/reasons-why-lisp-games-suffer-corrections ; that said, it is offtopic, so I'm dropping the topic
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2020-09-23T18:31:43Z dbotton__: user51:  I am finding “Common Lisp Recipes” very helpful for code and grasping the mindset
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2020-09-23T19:11:46Z user51: dbotton_: thanks. i switched to land of lisp, which is much less dry and also seems to have been reviewed by an editor before publishing.
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2020-09-23T19:14:30Z mseddon: is Land of Lisp common lisp focused?
2020-09-23T19:15:24Z markasoftware: yeh
2020-09-23T19:15:29Z user51: clisp-focused.
2020-09-23T19:15:49Z ebrasca: user51: I recomend https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano for reading.
2020-09-23T19:16:33Z user51: that looks plenty interesting. also concides with my interests. big thanks!
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2020-09-23T19:20:10Z ebrasca: user51: There is #mezzano for this project.
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2020-09-23T19:26:47Z dbotton: <user51> the idea was for code examples it is not really a first book to start with
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2020-09-23T19:30:29Z dbotton: how old is that OS project? Mezzano
2020-09-23T19:31:03Z jasom: minion: tell user51 about paip
2020-09-23T19:31:05Z minion: user51: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2020-09-23T19:31:29Z jasom: user51: that book has a lot of CL code with explanations
2020-09-23T19:33:10Z user51: thanks. i'll look at those once i'm done with LOL
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2020-09-23T19:59:10Z ebrasca: dbotton: Now Mezzano does have some years.
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2020-09-23T21:11:50Z ChoHag: Is there a way to do this without the eval: (define y 21)(define x 'y)(eval `(* ,x 2))
2020-09-23T21:12:07Z ChoHag: Uh that's scheme but you get the idea.
2020-09-23T21:12:34Z ChoHag: Hmm actually no doesn't lisp have a whole bunch of seperate namespaces?
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2020-09-23T21:15:34Z Bike: ChoHag: (* (symbol-value x) 2)
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2020-09-24T02:28:05Z markasoftware: (* (symbol-value x) 2)
2020-09-24T02:28:13Z markasoftware: oh i forgot to scroll down
2020-09-24T02:28:31Z markasoftware: good job bike
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2020-09-24T03:16:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-24T07:46:33Z flip214: does anybody know why ironclad uses (declaim (inline ...)) (defun ...) (declaim (noinline ...))) but the functions inbetween (eg hex-string-to-byte-array) have no calls to be inlined?
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2020-09-24T07:50:36Z scymtym: the function is exported and described in the documentation so no calls in the ironclad codebase (outside of tests) are fine. the declarations are probably intended to give clients the choice between inlining and not inlining
2020-09-24T07:50:53Z beach: flip214: That idiom is specifically mentioned in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2020-09-24T07:51:55Z beach: clhs inline
2020-09-24T07:51:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_inline.htm
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2020-09-24T07:56:13Z flip214: beach: ah, right, thanks a lot!
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2020-09-24T08:02:30Z beach: Sure.
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2020-09-24T08:54:48Z ldbeth: good afternoon
2020-09-24T08:55:13Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ldbeth
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2020-09-24T20:29:28Z jasom: grr there doesn't seem to be a 2-word sized specialization of vectors in sbcl.  My hash-table implementation is sad.
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2020-09-24T20:53:14Z garbochock: Good evening. I'm trying to load a package "incudine" with quicklisp. I have downloaded it to "~/quickload/local-projects", and attempting to do (ql:quickload "incudine"). However, it fails with 'System "incudine" not found'. How do I troubleshoot this?
2020-09-24T20:53:29Z Josh_2: (ql:register-local-projects)
2020-09-24T20:53:31Z Josh_2: then try again :P
2020-09-24T20:54:00Z garbochock: Thank you, still same error however :/
2020-09-24T20:54:17Z Josh_2: hmm
2020-09-24T20:54:45Z Josh_2: does the .asdf file have the same name as the package?
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2020-09-24T20:56:26Z garbochock: hm, I'm fairly new to lisp, I have incudine.asd but no asdf - does that mean that it's not supported by quickload?
2020-09-24T20:56:46Z Bike: What do you mean "no asdf"?
2020-09-24T20:56:46Z Josh_2: yes my mistake
2020-09-24T20:56:52Z Bike: oh, i see, nvm
2020-09-24T20:56:58Z jasom: garbochock: .asd is fine
2020-09-24T20:57:23Z Josh_2: and the name of the package is also incudine?
2020-09-24T20:57:33Z garbochock: yes, exactly
2020-09-24T20:57:42Z jasom: you have "~/quickload/local-projects/incudine/incudine.asd" ?
2020-09-24T20:57:57Z garbochock: that's right
2020-09-24T20:58:00Z Josh_2: you have a package.lisp file?
2020-09-24T20:58:07Z garbochock: no, actually
2020-09-24T20:58:09Z Josh_2: which contains a valid defpackage
2020-09-24T20:58:12Z Bike: if it's not loading at all, the package is probably not relevant.
2020-09-24T20:58:13Z Josh_2: oh right well that might be it
2020-09-24T20:58:39Z jasom: package.lisp is not the problem
2020-09-24T20:59:33Z jasom: garbochock: what operating-system?
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2020-09-24T21:01:00Z garbochock: I'm running arch linux, sbcl. I've tried in emacs slime as well as sbcl in terminal.
2020-09-24T21:01:29Z jasom: hmm
2020-09-24T21:02:02Z aeth: jasom: according to the HyperSpec, it's not operating-system it's software-type :-)
2020-09-24T21:02:08Z Bike: when you say you downloaded it to local-projects, do you mean all the files are just there in local-projects, or did you make an incudine/ documentary or something
2020-09-24T21:02:20Z jasom: https://github.com/titola/incudine/blob/master/incudine.asd <-- assuming it's this, I can't see what wouldn't work
2020-09-24T21:02:30Z Bike: yeah, looks fine
2020-09-24T21:02:45Z jasom: though defclass in .asd is a bit frowned upon
2020-09-24T21:02:47Z Bike: you could try the more manual way of (push #P"/path/to/incudine/" asdf:*central-registry*) and see what happens
2020-09-24T21:02:47Z garbochock: i did git clone inside ~/quicklisp/local-projects, so it's located in it's separate directory
2020-09-24T21:02:49Z pve: you guys mean "~/quicklisp" right? not "~/quickload"
2020-09-24T21:02:51Z Josh_2: thats the most complicated asd I've ever seen
2020-09-24T21:03:16Z Bike: yeah, did you put it in ~/quicklisp or ~/quickload
2020-09-24T21:03:22Z jasom: aha, pve is right, assuming it's installed to ~quicklisp
2020-09-24T21:03:29Z jasom: s/~//~/\//
2020-09-24T21:03:37Z jasom: Josh_2: look at gbbopen sometime
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2020-09-24T21:03:59Z garbochock: it's ~/quicklisp
2020-09-24T21:04:29Z jasom: garbochock: if the "local-projects" directory already existed, it's probably the right place
2020-09-24T21:04:47Z jasom: garbochock: try (asdf:load-asd "~/quicklisp/local-projects/incudine/incudine.asd") then the quickload
2020-09-24T21:05:24Z garbochock: Bike: thank you, running (push #P"/path/to/incudine/"     asdf:*central-registry*) followed by (ql:quickload "incudine") seems to work!
2020-09-24T21:05:30Z jasom: Josh_2: http://gbbopen.org/svn/GBBopen/trunk/gbbopen.asd
2020-09-24T21:05:41Z Bike: pretty strange that it wouldn't work with local projects
2020-09-24T21:06:01Z Bike: "Interfaces GBBopen's Module Manager facility" oh no.
2020-09-24T21:06:13Z garbochock: indeed. First package that I'm installing this way though. Maybe my quicklisp is out of whack
2020-09-24T21:06:36Z jasom: Bike: the project predates asdf by a fair amount
2020-09-24T21:06:38Z pve: garbochock: asdf also recognizes ~/common-lisp/ by default, you could try that to rule out ~/local-projects weirdness
2020-09-24T21:06:43Z Bike: jasom: i figured
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2020-09-25T01:15:02Z ruffianeo: I am trying to write a macro (defmacro remoted (name args &body body) ...) which defines 3 functions.....
2020-09-25T01:15:57Z ruffianeo: 1. `(defun ,name ,args ,@body)
2020-09-25T01:16:16Z ruffianeo: 2.. a function which returns a quoted call of the function
2020-09-25T01:16:31Z ruffianeo: 3. a function which returns a quote define of that function.
2020-09-25T01:16:40Z ruffianeo: I am kinda stuck with 2 and 3...
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2020-09-25T01:18:32Z no-defun-allowed: `(progn (defun ,name ,args ,@body) (defun ,(make-name name) () '(,name ,@args)) (defun ,(make-definition-name name) () '(defun ,name ,args ,@body)))?
2020-09-25T01:19:05Z ruffianeo: hm.....
2020-09-25T01:19:43Z no-defun-allowed: make-name and make-definition-name can be defined using intern and format (or alexandria:format-symbol) if you need to make those names and they aren't given by the user.
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2020-09-25T01:21:55Z Bike: why do you want those two extras, out of curiosity
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2020-09-25T01:24:42Z ruffianeo: well - I hosted ecl in some c++ code and want to send it lisp stuff over a tcp socket
2020-09-25T01:24:51Z ruffianeo: from sbcl
2020-09-25T01:25:19Z ruffianeo: (remoted foo (a b c) (+ a b c))
2020-09-25T01:25:27Z ruffianeo: would then generate those 3 functions
2020-09-25T01:25:41Z ruffianeo: and I could get the quotation to send if I write (remote-foo 1 2 3)
2020-09-25T01:26:11Z ruffianeo: and if I want to define that function remotely I would write (remote-defun-foo)
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2020-09-25T01:28:34Z ruffianeo: (read-from-string (format nil "remote-~a" name))
2020-09-25T01:28:41Z ruffianeo: this shoudl also work, yes?
2020-09-25T01:29:27Z no-defun-allowed: I guess, but INTERN makes your intent a bit clearer.
2020-09-25T01:36:18Z ruffianeo: the problem I have with (remote-foo 1 2 3), that the (defun remote-foo (a b c) '(foo a b c)) needs to kind of eval the arguments and put the values into the variables
2020-09-25T01:36:55Z no-defun-allowed: Then you want to generate (list 'foo ,@arguments), but not exactly that, because the lambda list (a &key b) would do something else.
2020-09-25T01:37:18Z ruffianeo: hm..... not so easy
2020-09-25T01:37:52Z no-defun-allowed: If you can live without the lambda list, you could generate `(defun remote-foo (&rest rest) (cons ',name rest)).
2020-09-25T01:38:33Z ruffianeo: yes I think I tried something like that ... maybe
2020-09-25T01:38:51Z no-defun-allowed: One idea though: instead of generating (remote-foo 1 2 3), why not (remote (foo 1 2 3))? Defining REMOTE would be trivial, and it'd just look like FOO otherwise.
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2020-09-25T01:46:28Z ruffianeo: (remote (name &rest args) ...) could be a second macro I then simply use for the first one
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2020-09-25T02:33:30Z ruffianeo: I give up for today - thanks for the help!
2020-09-25T02:35:00Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, take care.
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2020-09-25T03:14:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-09-25T03:18:01Z Josh_2: Hi beach
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2020-09-25T06:10:24Z flip214: is there something like memset in CFFI?
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2020-09-25T11:03:46Z drl: How can this be fixed:  ; Evaluation aborted on #<SB-KERNEL:SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR "~A is a nickname for the package ~A" {1006988463}>.
2020-09-25T11:03:46Z drl: ; Evaluation aborted on #<ASDF/ACTION:CIRCULAR-DEPENDENCY {100595CED3}>.
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2020-09-25T11:52:21Z _death: like this: ; No value
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2020-09-25T13:04:32Z pve: Hi, are implementations required to store the source code of function definitions (as a string or cons)? I can see that on SBCL, (describe #'foo) shows me the source form, but (describe #'+) does not. Does it depend on the optimization settings used when compiling the code?
2020-09-25T13:05:01Z beach: If they were, no commercial Common Lisp vendor would be in business.
2020-09-25T13:05:15Z beach: Because you could then see the source code of the entire implementation.
2020-09-25T13:06:21Z Bike: but yeah, probably depends on the SPACE and DEBUG optimization settings
2020-09-25T13:06:31Z pve: beach: I understand, thanks
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2020-09-25T14:07:09Z TwoNotes: In my logged error messages from a handler, I see a routine reference like this: "(semantics fun8)"  I do have a function named "semantics" but what is the "fun8"??
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2020-09-25T14:10:30Z Bike: doesn't ring a bell.
2020-09-25T14:10:36Z Bike: how do you do the logging?
2020-09-25T14:11:07Z TwoNotes: log4cl
2020-09-25T14:11:32Z TwoNotes: I have (optimize (debug 3)(speed 1))
2020-09-25T14:12:10Z TwoNotes: log4cl includes the name of the function it was called from. Sometimes it is putting in this extra name like "fun8"
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2020-09-25T15:44:14Z drmeister: Displaced arrays in Common Lisp don't have an accessor like (setf (array-displacement displaced-array) ...)
2020-09-25T15:45:29Z drmeister: How much trouble would I be getting myself into if I added two, one to set the array that I want to displace-to and the other for the displayed-index-offset.
2020-09-25T15:45:44Z beach: clhs adjust-array
2020-09-25T15:45:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_adjust.htm
2020-09-25T15:46:16Z drmeister: Oh!  Is that what that is for?
2020-09-25T15:46:21Z drmeister: Well - ok then.
2020-09-25T15:46:57Z Bike: that is one of the things it is for, yeah.
2020-09-25T15:47:27Z Bike: having a more restricted setf might be kind of interesting, since adjust-array can adjust a whole lot of things, but it's not in the language
2020-09-25T15:47:55Z drmeister: I'm writing simulators - and I find it's really convenient to put all the values that represent the state of the system at any point in one big vector.   I'd like to displace a bunch of other vectors into that state vector to interpret the single state vector into other, more meaningful vectors.
2020-09-25T15:51:24Z drmeister: Thank you both.
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2020-09-25T15:54:31Z drmeister: I've got these two robotic synthesizers that each have like 35 bottles of solutions that it takes material out of and 6 reactors that it assembles molecules onto.  I want to simulate them both for a week and then set up another simulation. I'm going to create a state vector with (* 2 (+ 35 6)) entries for the whole system and then simulate two machines that have displaced vectors for their bottles and reactors into that
2020-09-25T15:54:31Z drmeister: state vector.
2020-09-25T15:55:03Z drmeister: Then I can copy the state vector, run it for a couple of days, make a decision, throw it away and go back to the previous state.  Things like that.
2020-09-25T15:55:10Z drmeister: Displaced arrays are great for that.
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2020-09-25T16:50:15Z shka_: drmeister: you are not using sbcl, aren't you?
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2020-09-25T17:28:01Z Stengah: Hi! I want to help maintain lisp project
2020-09-25T17:28:28Z Stengah: any entry level projects that I can help?
2020-09-25T17:28:41Z Stengah: It could be anything
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2020-09-25T18:07:58Z drl: When I use quicklisp to try to load "alexandria" I get the following error message: Evaluation aborted on #<SB-KERNEL:SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR "~A is a nickname for the package ~A" {1003D60BF3}>.
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2020-09-25T18:10:36Z drl: What am I doing wrong?
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2020-09-25T18:14:56Z pve: drl: how do you load it?
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2020-09-25T18:24:49Z |3b|: any suggestions for handling warnings differently for some packages in QL or ASDF? in particular i want to be strict about warnings for my code when testing, but permit them for dependencies i don't control
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2020-09-25T18:25:35Z |3b|: so far cleanest idea i have is to ask ASDF for a list of dependencies of my projects, and load those separately ignoring warnings
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2020-09-25T18:26:29Z |3b|: other ideas are to add a mixin to the systems before loading them, so i can put around methods on asdf ops to handle things specifically
2020-09-25T18:27:03Z |3b|: (or just put methods on them directly without introducing my own classes, but that's probably too fragile, even assuming they don't have around methods already)
2020-09-25T18:28:58Z drl: pve, (ql:quickload "alexandria")
2020-09-25T18:29:40Z |3b|: asking for a list of dependencies has the problem of requiring the systems to already exist, which isn't always the case if i want to be strict about something that would normally be installed by ql (and even if it does exist, i still need to sort them, etc)
2020-09-25T18:29:53Z |3b|: drl: what implementation + version?
2020-09-25T18:30:51Z |3b|: actually, i guess it is obviously sbcl, but still what version :)
2020-09-25T18:31:17Z pve: drl: that should just work, what packages does the error message refer to?
2020-09-25T18:32:53Z |3b|: drl: also, what does (ql:where-is-system 'alexandria) return, and does it load if you run sbcl with --no-sysinit --no-userinit
2020-09-25T18:33:20Z drl: |3b|, SBCL 2.0.8.72-7e8aef940
2020-09-25T18:33:24Z pve: but that won't init quicklisp..
2020-09-25T18:34:35Z |3b|: true, i guess you need to add --load '(load "/quicklisp/setup.lisp")' after the --no-*
2020-09-25T18:34:43Z |3b|: --eval i mean
2020-09-25T18:34:49Z drl: pve, just alexandria.
2020-09-25T18:35:18Z |3b|: or just --load ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp
2020-09-25T18:36:52Z |3b|: drl: the error should show what package name and/or nickname is conflicting, might paste entire output (to gist or a paste site, not here) so we can look for clues
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2020-09-25T18:38:20Z drl: I uninstalled alexandria, then tried to load it. quicklisp downloaded the file and uncompressed it, but then again gave the error message.
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2020-09-25T18:41:02Z pve: drl: you should look for the offending package before you load alexandria
2020-09-25T18:41:39Z pve: apparently you're loading something that conflicts with alexandria
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2020-09-25T18:45:48Z drl: pve, I exited emac, restarted emacs, started slime, tried to load alexandria before loading anything else. I still get the same error message.
2020-09-25T18:45:56Z Xach: drl: try (ql:where-is-system "alexandria")
2020-09-25T18:46:07Z Xach: i suspect a third-party alexandria sneaking in
2020-09-25T18:47:13Z pve: drl: forget emacs for a moment, work from the shell
2020-09-25T18:47:34Z pve: and check your ~/.sbclrc
2020-09-25T18:47:57Z drl: Xach, #P"/home/l/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20200715-git/"
2020-09-25T18:48:23Z Xach: ok, that is ok
2020-09-25T18:48:35Z pve: drl: do what |3b| suggested in the shell and see if it loads
2020-09-25T18:49:04Z |3b|: drl: if you type alexandria into the repl in slime and hit M-. on it, does it go to a file? if so, is it in that path?
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2020-09-25T18:53:09Z drl: |3b|, ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20190710-git/package.lisp
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2020-09-25T18:54:12Z drl: pve, it loads from the shell.
2020-09-25T18:54:47Z |3b|: with --no-sysinit --no-userinit or without?
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2020-09-25T18:55:31Z drl: I note that I must have two different copies of alexandria in quicklisp.
2020-09-25T18:55:42Z drl: Note the dates.
2020-09-25T18:55:43Z |3b|: yeah, that's normal
2020-09-25T18:56:09Z _death: what is the actual error message, not what's printed after you abort
2020-09-25T18:56:11Z |3b|: but something seems to be explicit6ly loading the old one before you try to load it
2020-09-25T18:56:25Z Xach: It could be an asdf configuration.
2020-09-25T18:56:30Z Xach: like a :tree option or something.
2020-09-25T18:56:41Z |3b|: that would affect :where-is-system, wouldn't it?
2020-09-25T18:57:01Z Xach: Yes.
2020-09-25T18:57:40Z |3b|: i guess it could be something loads it and then changes configuration
2020-09-25T18:58:49Z Xach: drl: here's something else to try: (ql-dist:clean (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp"))
2020-09-25T18:58:57Z Xach: That will remove old things from the quicklisp dist tree
2020-09-25T18:59:06Z |3b|: but either way, just need to figure out which config file is doing odd things if it loads on shell in some form
2020-09-25T19:00:33Z |3b|: if it loads without --no-sysinit --no-userinit, it should be something in slime/swank or emacs config, otherwise try just one of those to see if the other init file is the problem
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2020-09-25T19:01:34Z drl: Xach, That didn't help.
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2020-09-25T19:14:51Z drl: |3b|, "if it loads without --no-sysinit --no-userinit"  I don't know how to do that.
2020-09-25T19:15:06Z |3b|: when you tested on shell, what command did you run in shell?
2020-09-25T19:17:03Z drl: |3b|, (ql:quickload "alexandria")
2020-09-25T19:17:17Z drl: and that loaded OK.
2020-09-25T19:17:19Z |3b|: i mean to start sbcl
2020-09-25T19:17:56Z drl: sbcl
2020-09-25T19:18:11Z |3b|: ok, with no other arguments?
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2020-09-25T19:18:23Z drl: no
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2020-09-25T19:21:38Z |3b|: drl: does the file ~/.swank.lisp exist ?
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2020-09-25T19:23:34Z drl: |3b|, no.
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2020-09-25T19:25:13Z |3b|: drl: does ~/.sbclrc do anything besides load quicklisp?
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2020-09-25T19:29:16Z drl: |3b|, (require :asdf)
2020-09-25T19:29:17Z drl: ;;; If a fasl was stale, try to recompile and load (once).
2020-09-25T19:29:17Z drl: (defmethod asdf:perform :around ((o asdf:load-op)
2020-09-25T19:29:17Z drl: (c asdf:cl-source-file))
2020-09-25T19:29:17Z drl: (handler-case (call-next-method o c)
2020-09-25T19:29:18Z drl: ;; If a fasl was stale, try to recompile and load (once).
2020-09-25T19:29:19Z drl: (sb-ext:invalid-fasl ()
2020-09-25T19:29:21Z drl: (asdf:perform (make-instance 'asdf:compile-op) c)
2020-09-25T19:29:23Z drl: (call-next-method))))
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2020-09-25T19:30:17Z Xach: wow, that is so old!
2020-09-25T19:30:22Z Xach: how did you find such a bit of code?
2020-09-25T19:31:05Z drl: I've had it for years---don't remember where I got it.
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2020-09-25T19:32:10Z easye: methinks it is pre-ASDF2
2020-09-25T19:33:25Z Xach: so old
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2020-09-25T19:33:48Z |3b|: drl: did you restart inferior lisp (or emacs entirely) after (ql-dist:clean ...)?
2020-09-25T19:34:16Z drl: Should I just delete all of that old stuff?
2020-09-25T19:35:12Z Lycurgus: is anything in sbcl that old in lisp years?
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2020-09-25T19:35:33Z Lycurgus: didn it fork from cmucl c. '06?
2020-09-25T19:35:39Z |3b|: drl: might also try deleting fasl cache in ~/.cache/common-lisp/ (assuming unix-like os) and ~/.slime/fasl/
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2020-09-25T19:36:08Z Lycurgus: lisp old is before 1980
2020-09-25T19:36:15Z |3b|: and then restart lisp (or emacs) and try again
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2020-09-25T19:36:28Z |3b|: if it still errors, make sure it is still the same error
2020-09-25T19:38:08Z easye: I think it's from Bill Clementson's Blog <https://web.archive.org/web/20060707174628/http://bc.tech.coop/blog/041106.html>
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2020-09-25T19:40:51Z Xach: I used to have it in my setup too
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2020-09-25T19:46:58Z scymtym: Xach: do you know whether anything has happened here https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1889 ? in one of my builds it seems as if trivia is quickloaded to satisfy a :depends-on "optima" but then the OPTIMA package does not exist
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2020-09-25T19:49:24Z Xach: scymtym: I don't know of the current status
2020-09-25T19:49:37Z scymtym: Xach: ok, thank you
2020-09-25T19:49:47Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-09-25/failure-report.html shows some optima-related breakage
2020-09-25T19:51:35Z Xach: (I am pleased with my new report format, which pulls critical ERROR/WARNING info out into the main index page)
2020-09-25T19:52:08Z |3b|: some of those seem to be from trying to switch to trivia
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2020-09-25T19:52:55Z scymtym: yeah, fare-quasiquote seems to have been "fixed": https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/frideau/fare-quasiquote/-/commit/28c556771c5551339bbd86306cc01f76caa0700f
2020-09-25T19:53:12Z rustisafungus: so, i am language-surfing, for fun. i get the impression that the lisp community isn't so fond of types (?) is there some good reading on this philosophy i can look at?
2020-09-25T19:53:40Z |3b|: types are great, typing them in manually for no reason isn't so great :)
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2020-09-25T19:54:13Z Xach: rustisafungus: "not fond of types" does not describe the common lisp people i know
2020-09-25T19:54:16Z |3b|: and "lisp community" is a bit vague, this channel is specifically about Common lisp
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2020-09-25T19:54:47Z rustisafungus: so you guys do like your variables to be strongly typed? i think there is some quote from pg saying that values have types, not variables
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2020-09-25T19:55:28Z |3b|: "types" isn't the same as "strongly typed variables"
2020-09-25T19:55:39Z Xach: there's some joke in there to be made along the lines of "if trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? maybe if they screamed all the time, for no reason"
2020-09-25T19:55:40Z |3b|: and pg is right, values are what has types
2020-09-25T19:56:12Z |3b|: though telling the compiler we will only put values of a specific type in a particular variable can allow some nice optimizations, so we do that sometimes
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2020-09-25T19:56:49Z |3b|: but most of the time, that restriction is just annoying, so we don't
2020-09-25T19:56:57Z rustisafungus: "values have types" sounds equivalent to "i dont like declaring a variety of different variable names when i could just have one"
2020-09-25T19:57:07Z Xach: it isn't.
2020-09-25T19:57:07Z aeth: pjb isn't fond of types and pjb is vocal, but pjb isn't everyone.
2020-09-25T19:58:27Z |3b|: if you like, you can just say we default to all variables being strongly typed as T (which is the type in CL that is a supertype of all other types), so can hold any values
2020-09-25T19:58:45Z aeth: The language surrounding types is really confusing. But "strong vs weak" afaik is normally about coercively typed languages being "weak", while in CL, there really are only rules for autoconversion within the numeric tower (e.g. (+ integer float)) afaik.
2020-09-25T19:59:17Z rustisafungus: oh wow you autoconvert int and float
2020-09-25T19:59:17Z aeth: Where the canonical problem with weak types is 42 + "4" which could be "424" or 46 (or, really, anything else)
2020-09-25T19:59:24Z rustisafungus: that's very dangerous
2020-09-25T19:59:46Z aeth: rustisafungus: if you want to be careful with your floats, you end every literal with "f0" or "d0" depending on which type you want. It's not that bad.
2020-09-25T19:59:56Z |3b|: we would say the same about integers wrapping :)
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2020-09-25T20:00:12Z aeth: And, yeah, you can get wrapping integers, but only if you wrap them in an operation that wraps them, such as MOD
2020-09-25T20:00:19Z rustisafungus: aeth: idiomaticity is important in programming languages imo, i want all my libraries etc to treat floats as being radioactive
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2020-09-25T20:01:08Z |3b|: radioactive things can be quite useful :)
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2020-09-25T20:01:21Z aeth: rustisafungus: every library that's worthwhile will use the "f0" suffix for all single-floats and the "d0" suffix for all double-floats with no exceptions. Once a float, things stay as floats, although they turn into the one with the highest precision if you mix them iirc.
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2020-09-25T20:01:45Z rustisafungus: yeah again non-explicit typecasting
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2020-09-25T20:02:20Z Xach: at least you are exploring languages with an open mind and without preconceptions
2020-09-25T20:03:21Z aeth: rustisafungus: The rules are very consistent. An integer is a fixnum or a bignum. It becomes a bignum automatically if it leaves its range, but you can keep it in range to keep it efficient (with e.g. MOD, which might be optimized to the appropriate asm + instruction if the right size)
2020-09-25T20:03:51Z pve: often when people write "strongly typed", they really mean "statically typed"
2020-09-25T20:04:23Z rustisafungus: yes but i could write a program where everything is some kind of String, and that would be all statically typed
2020-09-25T20:04:24Z aeth: rustisafungus: Division of an integer with an integer produces a rational, which is conceptually like a pair of bignums. Certain operations like SQRT that produce irrationals can turn something into a float (the one part I don't like, tbh), but otherwise, floats are only obtained by mixing something with a float, in which case it uses the most precise float.
2020-09-25T20:04:50Z aeth: And any of these numerical types can become complex (e.g. you can have a complex with integers, or a complex with any float type)
2020-09-25T20:05:01Z aeth: Complex being the natural thing to do when you have (sqrt -1)
2020-09-25T20:05:02Z rustisafungus: but really i should be defining more about my values to my compiler, so i say "strongly" to distinguish the fact that i want to reveal as much as is practical about my program operation to my compiler, because it is smarter than i am, often
2020-09-25T20:06:12Z Xach: It can be helpful not to be obligated to do that when starting out.
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2020-09-25T20:06:19Z aeth: rustisafungus: CL numerical programs are more... mathematical than most programming languages. An integer is a mathematical integer. If you want it to be an efficient machine integer, you better actually establish bounds algorithmically, or DECLARE it and hope it errors.
2020-09-25T20:06:21Z rustisafungus: xach: agreed
2020-09-25T20:07:05Z rustisafungus: aeth: yeah, but that means that my program is either total with bounds or not total and i have to pray
2020-09-25T20:07:24Z rustisafungus: i hadn't realized that duality until now,... i guess all variables need to be bounded in order to have totality
2020-09-25T20:07:57Z aeth: rustisafungus: Other programs tolerate incorrect behavior for efficiency, but CL perfers to either error or turn into a mathematical type that prevents it from being an error (e.g. sqrt can produce complex)
2020-09-25T20:08:35Z aeth: rustisafungus: You can however disable this for floating point and get the NaN/inf of other languages. You have to use float-features:with-float-traps-masked because the way to do it is not standard.
2020-09-25T20:09:05Z aeth: for better or for worse, most numerical programs (1) use floats and (2) disable the built-in safety of the language this way.
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2020-09-25T20:11:06Z aeth: arguably, single-floats should never overflow because it would be more consistent with the language design if they just overflowed into double-floats just like fixnums overflow into bignums
2020-09-25T20:11:16Z aeth: but I guess floats are used for efficiency too much for people to think like that
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2020-09-25T20:13:14Z aeth: In practice, though, if you care about your numerical type, you're going to statically type or check-type your code there... so your integer becoming a float because one float was passed in won't really be an issue.
2020-09-25T20:14:44Z user51: has anyone done any emulation in lisp? i'm specifically talking about intel 8080, i figured it would be a decent first project.
2020-09-25T20:14:58Z |3b| has seen some nes emulators i think
2020-09-25T20:15:13Z |3b|: (or at least chips from them, don't remember if they did whole systems)
2020-09-25T20:15:22Z user51: yeah, there's a nes one on github
2020-09-25T20:15:27Z rustisafungus: user51: decent first project for carp lang?
2020-09-25T20:15:38Z user51: carp?
2020-09-25T20:16:11Z rustisafungus: user51: https://github.com/carp-lang/Carp
2020-09-25T20:16:55Z aeth: user51: to be efficient on this sort of thing... (1) use SBCL, (2) use structs whose slots have a :type or use arrays with an :element-type that can be optimized (mostly just various simple numerical types; test with upgraded-array-element-type first) or some combination of these
2020-09-25T20:17:09Z aeth: (3) frequently DISASSEMBLE and use DECLARE to provide type information
2020-09-25T20:17:14Z aeth: It will be mostly portable, but really fast on SBCL
2020-09-25T20:17:34Z user51: rustisafungus: i'll stick to CL for now, as that's the material i've been reading.
2020-09-25T20:17:42Z rustisafungus: aeth: what do you think of carp? ;)
2020-09-25T20:18:18Z aeth: rustisafungus: I bet you that SBCL will beat its performance because it has had decades of work put into it, even though it's neither statically typed (although it is gradually typed) nor aimed at RT programming.
2020-09-25T20:18:48Z aeth: It is possible, though a bit hard, to avoid GC during the runtime by preallocating everything. SBCL gives you enough profiling information to do this.
2020-09-25T20:20:47Z aeth: Well, actually SBCL is statically typed, I'm underselling it. CL itself is just dynamically typed (values hold type information), but SBCL is doubly statically typed, with parallel declared-type and inferred-type information at compile time associated with variables (although it's often just T, since most CL code is ultra-dynamic)
2020-09-25T20:21:58Z rustisafungus: so i guess in contrast to haskell, mutation in lisp is very common/idiomatic etc?
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2020-09-25T20:22:33Z |3b|: yeah, CL likes to mix lots of styles of programming, 'pure functional', 'mutate everything', OOP, whatever :)
2020-09-25T20:22:48Z aeth: The least painful style is probably a "mostly functional" style, where pure functions feed into mutable data structures, since CL is a very expression-heavy language.
2020-09-25T20:22:50Z |3b|: iteration, recursion, whichever fits
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2020-09-25T20:22:58Z aeth: But you can really write using any style.
2020-09-25T20:23:05Z sm2n: no tail recursion though ;)
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2020-09-25T20:23:52Z aeth: If you're writing an emulator in CL, it'd probably look a lot like writing an emulator in C, though.
2020-09-25T20:23:53Z rustisafungus: i think part of my curiousity about lisp is the realization that type systems are just code which executes at compile time
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2020-09-25T20:24:24Z user51: aeth: thanks. and yes, c is the language i wrote the emulator in originally, although since it's my first it had a bunch of iterations for improvements.
2020-09-25T20:24:40Z aeth: As far as low-level programming goes, you have structs of arrays available to you in CL, but you dn't have arrays of structs, since there's no way to make an array with that sort of memory layout... you'd just get arrays of pointers to structs.
2020-09-25T20:25:02Z user51: yeah, i learned no arrays of structs the hard way :D
2020-09-25T20:25:07Z |3b|: sm2n: right, but anything that /requires/ tail recursion probably doesn't fit :)
2020-09-25T20:25:15Z rustisafungus: user51: do you understand the NES (all those opcodes etc) or do you copypasta them from some documentation?
2020-09-25T20:25:31Z user51: i don't know any NES, only 8080
2020-09-25T20:33:23Z user51: thanks everyone - i'll keep reading about lisp and see where i get stuck. night!
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2020-09-25T20:36:09Z rustisafungus: i just came across this, possibly nsfw https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Oberwolfach+HoTT-Coq+tutorial
2020-09-25T20:37:59Z rustisafungus: i like the idea that time is a side effect btw, this is a much neglected idea
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2020-09-25T20:55:47Z PuercoPop: aeth: manardb is similar to an array of structs (a mmap'ed back collection of classes). The only thing it doesn't do is allow random-access iirc, instead it forces you to iterate through all the instances at once
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2020-09-25T20:58:37Z aeth: PuercoPop: I'm guessing that's "db" as in a database? interesting
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2020-09-25T21:12:26Z PuercoPop: yeah, but it is memory backed.
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2020-09-25T22:11:50Z sveit: hello. i have seen online the statement that SBCL runs on Android, but I haven't found a guide to compile it either on-device (through termux) or cross-compile. is anyone familiar with this? a naive attempt to compile on-device ran into problems with undefined C functions.
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2020-09-25T22:13:59Z rustisafungus: i've made rustc compile and then compile a rust program on termux once, but it was very, very slow
2020-09-25T22:14:14Z rustisafungus: do you need specifically sbcl or just some lisp
2020-09-25T22:15:18Z no-defun-allowed: (Other than Clozure) any other Lisp is basically going to be even slower.
2020-09-25T22:15:39Z Bike: slower than not working?
2020-09-25T22:15:39Z rustisafungus: sveit: i mean, if you are just playing around, why not use repl.it
2020-09-25T22:15:55Z no-defun-allowed: True.
2020-09-25T22:15:55Z rustisafungus: yeah but repl.it will run your code in a vm for free, if you are just playing around
2020-09-25T22:15:57Z Bike: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ecl/ecl-android there's this, which is again not sbcl
2020-09-25T22:16:53Z rustisafungus: i don't see sbcl, but there's clojure https://repl.it/languages/clojure and whatever emacs lisp is: https://repl.it/languages/elisp
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2020-09-25T22:18:34Z Nilby: I have sbcl running on my phone, but it's not android. I compiled ECL first then compiled sbcl with it.
2020-09-25T22:19:01Z aeth: Not Android? Is it a Symbolics Lisp Machine phone?
2020-09-25T22:19:20Z Nilby: I wish. It's just linux.
2020-09-25T22:19:26Z aeth: I had to ask
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2020-09-25T22:20:29Z Nilby: But maybe someday there'll be a port of Mezzano to arm64?.
2020-09-25T22:21:09Z no-defun-allowed: There is an Android app with ECL and an acceptable editor, but I couldn't get Quicklisp working with it IIRC
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2020-09-25T22:23:34Z sveit: i got ECL compiled in termux with no trouble
2020-09-25T22:23:59Z sveit: i tried to use i to bootstrap in the SBCL compile, but ran into the undefined C functions
2020-09-25T22:24:34Z sveit: the reason for doing this is not to run it on a phone, but a somewhat powerful tablet.
2020-09-25T22:24:52Z no-defun-allowed: Do you know which functions?
2020-09-25T22:25:32Z sveit: I can let you know in a second. if i remember the spelling right it was getdtablesize
2020-09-25T22:26:04Z sveit: commits like this one (there are others) seem to suggest this should be possible: https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/sbcl/ci/e84400d65cfd88483d901199b482bcb892a0ac28/
2020-09-25T22:26:24Z Nilby: Ah, because the libc is not gnu.
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2020-09-25T22:26:48Z rustisafungus: i have no idea if this will photograph you while you are on the john and post the picture on the front page of a newspaper, but lisps are available on android,... https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.eql5.android.repl&hl=en_US
2020-09-25T22:26:50Z sveit: actually i have not just quicklisp, but SLY/SLIME working with ECL on termux. it's actually quite nice
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2020-09-25T22:27:03Z no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/pocoproject/poco/issues/1204 suggests you should replace that with sysconf(_SC_OPEN_MAX)
2020-09-25T22:28:49Z sveit: no-defun-allowed: the first build i did had some error with sockets, so quicklisp didn't work, but it was from not including the argument --build=aarch64-linux-android to configure
2020-09-25T22:29:00Z sveit: no-defun-allowed: remember to do make clean first if you do want to try this
2020-09-25T22:29:53Z sveit: i am happy to start patching, but i was hoping there was some cross-compile or other process i could do without modifying the source based on some of the mysterious statements on the internet :)
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2020-09-25T22:31:57Z sm2n: sveit, if it's actually libc, you could maybe try compiling against musl statically instead
2020-09-25T22:32:04Z Nilby: maybe you could install gcc?
2020-09-25T22:32:12Z sm2n: alpine has sbcl packaged, which seems to point at it being possible
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2020-09-25T22:33:01Z sm2n: https://pkgs.alpinelinux.org/package/edge/community/x86_64/sbcl
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2020-09-25T22:33:20Z sveit: sm2n: thanks! long shot, but do you know what to pass to the SBCL make to do this static linking?
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2020-09-25T22:33:44Z sm2n: no clue, I have never done so myself
2020-09-25T22:33:54Z sm2n: you could look at their build script
2020-09-25T22:35:42Z sveit: Nilby: only clang is officially supported, i think getting GCC will run into more problems than SBCL :)
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2020-09-25T22:36:59Z sm2n: but it looks like threading is disabled on aarch64, so I think that means slime etc won't work
2020-09-25T22:37:21Z sm2n: here is the build script: https://git.alpinelinux.org/aports/tree/community/sbcl/APKBUILD
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2020-09-25T22:37:43Z sm2n: they seem to be specifically not be passing any options for aarch64
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2020-09-25T22:38:09Z sm2n: I would test it but I screwed up my postmarketos installation recently
2020-09-25T22:38:20Z Nilby: searching reports this: https://github.com/its-pointless/gcc_termux . It looks pretty kludgy though.
2020-09-25T22:38:53Z no-defun-allowed: Well, threading on AArch64 does work, so it could be enabled. (I think you pass --fancy and you get all the good stuff including threading.)
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2020-09-26T01:10:24Z drl: OK, I'm back. I deleted the old code in ~/.sbclrc. I also deleted ~/.cache/common-lisp/ and ~/.slime/fasl/. I closed and restarted emacs. But alexandria still can't load. The first line of the backtrace is:  0: (SB-IMPL::UPDATE-PACKAGE-WITH-VARIANCE #<PACKAGE "ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0"> "ALEXANDRIA" ("ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0" "ALEXANDRIA-1") #S(SB-C:DEFINITION-SOURCE-LOCATION :NAMESTRING "/home/l/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/..
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2020-09-26T01:31:41Z drl: |3b|, the file ~/.swank.lisp does not exist, but /home/l/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-v2.24/swank.lisp does exist.
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2020-09-26T02:03:29Z drl: |3b|, if sbcl is started like this: sbcl --no-sysinit --no-userinit, and then * (load "alexandria") I get "Couldn't load "alexandria": file does not exist."
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2020-09-26T02:13:04Z Alfr: drl, unless you have a lisp file called alexandria that's expected.
2020-09-26T02:14:43Z Alfr: And --no-userinit will also skip the bits that quicklisp set up for, not sure you want this, unless you've manually set up alexandria somewhere.
2020-09-26T02:16:55Z drl: Alfr, alexandria has been downloaded by quicklisp, but can't load.  I just ran "sbcl --no-sysinit --no-userinit" because |3b| asked me to. Usually I use slime.
2020-09-26T02:19:36Z drl: (ql:quickload "alexandria")  give this error message: ALEXANDRIA is a nickname for the package ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0
2020-09-26T02:19:37Z drl:    [Condition of type SB-KERNEL:SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR]
2020-09-26T02:25:32Z Alfr: drl, w/ --no-sysinit --no-userinit; did you try loading the setup.lisp file in the quicklisp directory and then quickloading alexandria?
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2020-09-26T02:28:14Z Alfr: If that doesn't work, your sbcl or quicklisp install act strange.
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2020-09-26T02:35:51Z drl: Alfr, Is this the correct way to load it?:   (load '/home/l/quicklisp/quicklisp/setup.lisp)
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2020-09-26T02:38:53Z Alfr: drl, I don't think symbols are pathname designators.
2020-09-26T02:39:12Z Alfr: try (load "/home/l/quicklisp/quicklisp/setup.lisp")
2020-09-26T02:39:17Z no-defun-allowed: Symbols are not pathname designators, no.
2020-09-26T02:43:25Z drl: Result: debugger invoked on a PACKAGE-DOES-NOT-EXIST in thread
2020-09-26T02:45:06Z Alfr: drl, and you did what exactly?
2020-09-26T02:45:20Z drl: That's the result of (load "/home/l/quicklisp/quicklisp/setup.lisp")
2020-09-26T02:48:00Z Alfr: In a sbcl started w/ the options --no-sysinit and --no-userinit?
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2020-09-26T02:54:12Z drl: Alfr, yes.
2020-09-26T02:56:07Z Alfr: Does (require 'asdf) work?
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2020-09-26T03:00:02Z drl: Alfr, * (require 'asdf)
2020-09-26T03:00:02Z drl: ("ASDF" "asdf" "UIOP" "uiop")
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2020-09-26T03:02:10Z drl: If sbcl is started without those options, then (ql:quickload "alexandria") loads without error.
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2020-09-26T03:04:23Z Alfr_: So sbcl finds its contibs. Move your ~/.sbclrc somewhere safe and install quicklisp again with sbcl --no-sysinit .
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2020-09-26T03:07:54Z Alfr_: Failing that, _Xach may be more help than I can.
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2020-09-26T03:08:25Z Alfr_: *of
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2020-09-26T03:18:21Z drl: Alfr_, still no success. Thanks for trying to help. I'll see if Xach can help tomorrow.
2020-09-26T03:19:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-09-26T03:19:40Z Alfr_: Good morning beach.
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2020-09-26T12:17:17Z drl: Alfr_, pve, |3b| , Xach, I went through all your advice again step by step. Alexandria now loads, and my program compiles. Thank you! Your help is very much appreciated.
2020-09-26T12:18:38Z pve_: drl: that's good to hear
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2020-09-26T12:30:58Z edgar-rft: nobody seems to realize that I was the biggest help by saying nothing :-)
2020-09-26T12:33:10Z drl: Well, I thank you also, edgar-rft!
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2020-09-26T15:05:11Z xzax_[m]: Hello
2020-09-26T15:05:33Z beach: Hello xzax_[m].
2020-09-26T15:06:36Z beach: xzax_[m]: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2020-09-26T15:06:56Z xzax_[m]: Yes i am
2020-09-26T15:07:02Z xzax_[m]: New to lisp also
2020-09-26T15:07:11Z beach: I see.
2020-09-26T15:08:39Z beach: What sources of Lisp-related information are you using, besides this channel?
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2020-09-26T15:12:58Z xzax_[m]: This for now https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2020-09-26T15:14:04Z beach: I see.  That book is good if you have little or no experience with other languages.  For those with experience, we often recommend PCL.
2020-09-26T15:14:11Z beach: minion: Please tell xzax_[m] about PCL.
2020-09-26T15:14:11Z minion: xzax_[m]: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2020-09-26T15:15:46Z beach: xzax_[m]: And do you have your environment set up so that you can work correctly?
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2020-09-26T15:17:13Z xzax_[m]: beach: I see. Ill check that out
2020-09-26T15:17:24Z xzax_[m]: I use emacs
2020-09-26T15:17:31Z xzax_[m]: Specifically spacemacs
2020-09-26T15:17:41Z xzax_[m]: Ive installed slime and sbcl
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2020-09-26T15:17:53Z beach: Perfect!
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2020-09-26T15:18:50Z xzax_[m]: Thanks
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2020-09-26T15:23:34Z beach: xzax_[m]: Oh, I almost forgot: welcome to #lisp.  And for truly elementary questions, there is also #clschool.  This channel is not really meant for newbie questions, but such questions are tolerated.  If they get too elementary, you may get redirected to #clschool, depending on how busy this channel is.
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2020-09-26T15:26:04Z xzax_[m]: beach: Thank you. I understand ill join clschool in addition
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2020-09-26T15:28:03Z beach: One more piece of information you may find useful:  Those channels are fairly slow during the weekend, because many participants have families and they are busy doing other things.  But there is almost always someone you can get help from, no matter your time zone.
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2020-09-26T15:32:24Z xzax_[m]: Ok
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2020-09-26T15:50:04Z pve_: Hi, if I define (defclass my-class () () (:metaclass my-metaclass)), then is it correct to say that my-class is an "instance" of my-metaclass?
2020-09-26T15:51:10Z beach: Indeed.
2020-09-26T15:51:25Z pve_: beach: ok great, thanks
2020-09-26T15:51:33Z beach: In fact, it is constructed by (make-instance 'my-metaclass...)
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2020-09-26T15:52:54Z pve_: oh right!
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2020-09-26T15:57:25Z pve_: beach: is there somewhere I can read more about how that works? I'm currently looking at http://mop.lisp.se/www.alu.org/mop/
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2020-09-26T15:58:48Z beach: I created a better HTML version from the free chapters of the AMOP: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/table-of-contents.html.
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2020-09-26T15:58:58Z pve_: specifically, where does the result of that make-instance call get stored
2020-09-26T15:59:19Z pve_: aha, ok, I will bookmark that
2020-09-26T15:59:19Z beach: Oh, (setf (find-class 'my-class) (make-instance 'my-metaclass...))
2020-09-26T15:59:37Z beach: Where FIND-CLASS stores things is implementation specific.
2020-09-26T15:59:55Z beach: Er, where (SETF FIND-CLASS) stores things is implementation specific.
2020-09-26T16:00:13Z beach: But you can retrieve it with FIND-CLASS.
2020-09-26T16:01:17Z beach: Is that what you are asking?
2020-09-26T16:01:33Z pve_: ok, right.. find-class I kinda figured, but what about the hierarchy?
2020-09-26T16:01:50Z pve_: just the direct-superclasses links?
2020-09-26T16:01:52Z beach: mop class-direct-superclasses
2020-09-26T16:01:52Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-direct-superclasses.html
2020-09-26T16:01:57Z beach: mop class-direct-subclasses
2020-09-26T16:01:58Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-direct-subclasses.html
2020-09-26T16:02:06Z beach: Yeah.
2020-09-26T16:03:00Z pve_: great, I think I understand now
2020-09-26T16:03:06Z pve_: thank you
2020-09-26T16:03:10Z beach: Pleasure!
2020-09-26T16:03:25Z xzax_[m]: beach: i forgot to mention. Im not really learning lisp for building apps more like for (intro to) compilers and stuff like that. Based on that would you change your book recomendation?
2020-09-26T16:04:21Z beach: xzax_[m]: Not really.  Code like that is going to be a fairly heavy user of CLOS, so PCL is the better choice then.
2020-09-26T16:04:46Z beach: I am not sure "Gentle" even mentions classes and generic functions, but I haven't looked for a while.
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2020-09-26T16:05:25Z xzax_[m]: Ok. Thanks
2020-09-26T16:05:38Z beach: xzax_[m]: Since you are interested in compilers, you may want to know about SICL and Cleavir.
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2020-09-26T16:05:49Z beach: minion: Please tell xzax_[m] about SICL.
2020-09-26T16:05:49Z minion: xzax_[m]: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2020-09-26T16:05:54Z beach: minion: Please tell xzax_[m] about Cleavir.
2020-09-26T16:05:54Z minion: xzax_[m]: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2020-09-26T16:06:43Z beach: xzax_[m]: A lot of compiler talk and general talk about implementing Common Lisp is conducted in #sicl these days.
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2020-09-26T16:07:22Z xzax_[m]: Interesting stuff
2020-09-26T16:07:30Z beach: Thanks!
2020-09-26T16:07:51Z beach: But maybe you want to use Common Lisp to write a compiler for a different language.
2020-09-26T16:08:18Z beach: That would be an excellent choice as well.
2020-09-26T16:08:40Z beach: It is hard for me to imagine writing something like GCC in C or LLVM in C++.
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2020-09-26T16:17:02Z shka_: heh, have you seen clang C++ AST's classes?
2020-09-26T16:17:13Z beach: Nope.
2020-09-26T16:17:20Z shka_: it is HUGE
2020-09-26T16:17:26Z shka_: i mean, number of classes
2020-09-26T16:17:29Z beach: I see.
2020-09-26T16:17:46Z shka_: it really demonstrates how complex C++ is
2020-09-26T16:18:12Z shka_: and how daunting was implementing it in C++
2020-09-26T16:18:22Z beach: Ah, yes, that I can understand.
2020-09-26T16:18:37Z shka_: without an interactivity
2020-09-26T16:20:48Z beach: So it's double suffering.  Implementing C++, and using C++ to do it.
2020-09-26T16:24:51Z shka_: beach: also https://chriscummins.cc/2019/llvm-cost/
2020-09-26T16:26:16Z beach: Wow!
2020-09-26T16:27:09Z Plazma: Boost is like 5g of libraries
2020-09-26T16:27:15Z Plazma: For c++
2020-09-26T16:27:25Z Plazma: Or some ungodly thing
2020-09-26T16:27:42Z shka_: yup, an amazingly well used human effort ;-)
2020-09-26T16:29:24Z shka_: that is off topic though
2020-09-26T16:30:24Z shka_: anyway, people as saying that CL is a great language for making a compiler, I can't really tell if it is true because i don't make compilers, but if i would want to make compiler i would try CL first
2020-09-26T16:30:43Z shka_: because it is a really good language to do stuff you have no idea how to do
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2020-09-26T16:31:18Z shka_: in other words, CL makes a great learning tool
2020-09-26T16:33:52Z beach: xzax_[m]: I'm off for the day, to fix dinner for my (admittedly small) family and then spend time with her.  I am sure the other participants can help you if you need it.
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2020-09-26T18:03:24Z xzax_[m]: beach: ok. Thanks
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2020-09-26T20:53:11Z |3b|: can roswell install sbcl from git, or just released versions?
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2020-09-26T21:04:10Z aeth: shka_: depends on what you want from the compiler... parsers are probably not going to be that mature, but once you parse things into s-expressions, you get a free intermediate format.
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2020-09-26T21:28:11Z mfiano: |3b|: ros install sbcl/git?
2020-09-26T21:35:47Z |3b|: hmm, tried but failed to install it?
2020-09-26T21:36:43Z mfiano: works fine for me
2020-09-26T21:39:11Z |3b|: ah, maybe no git on CI server's msys
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2020-09-26T21:48:07Z mseddon: Sad CI sever is sad.
2020-09-26T21:49:02Z mseddon: Without git, CI is meaningless
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2020-09-26T21:49:20Z |3b|: there is a git, but it is git for windows, which msys doesn't see or something
2020-09-26T21:49:55Z |3b|: getting a bash-like shell on github actions on windows is a bit of a mess currently :/
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2020-09-26T21:56:48Z |3b|: yeah, adding git made it work, but apparently i did that wrong so i should expect it to break randomly at some point (luckily i wasn't planning to actually use this longer than just running it now)
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2020-09-26T22:06:09Z mseddon: :/ may you glass cannon function
2020-09-26T22:06:18Z mseddon: Your*
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2020-09-26T22:33:51Z TheInformaticist: de Morgan says, "...in all logical reasoning, the negation is simply negation, and nothing more, never implying affirmation of the contrary," "...since the denial of one, and the affirmation of the other, are obviously equivalent propositions." Yet, in mathematical logic, it would appear that negation is exactly that, since, for instance, to say "not equals," affirms all cases that are false under the condition of "equals." So is
2020-09-26T22:33:51Z TheInformaticist: mathematical logic different from traditional logic on this point?
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2020-09-26T22:36:02Z |3b|: isn't that "law of excluded middle" or whatever it is? and what does it have to do with (common) lisp?
2020-09-26T22:36:22Z |3b|: (not NIL) is true, (not anything-else) is NIL
2020-09-26T22:36:43Z |3b|: and numbers negate as expected
2020-09-26T22:39:19Z TheInformaticist: <|3b|>: Everything is about everything.
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2020-09-26T22:39:58Z TheInformaticist: He is not tall.
2020-09-26T22:40:23Z TheInformaticist: He is very tall.
2020-09-26T22:41:49Z aeth: |3b|: most numbers negate as expected. -0.0f0 is counterintuitive unless you're used to floating point
2020-09-26T22:42:06Z |3b| didn't say whose expectations :)
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2020-09-26T22:42:58Z aeth: in case anyone is wondering you can get -0 that easily, e.g. (- 0.0d0) => -0.0d0
2020-09-26T22:43:09Z aeth: I wasn't sure if 0 was somehow special cased
2020-09-26T22:43:33Z aeth: = and ZEROP should, of course, handle things as expected
2020-09-26T22:43:51Z |3b|: (pretty sure -0.0 is optional in spec, but probably exists in most current implementations)
2020-09-26T22:44:09Z mfiano: Well ieee754 is optional so :)
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2020-09-26T22:45:05Z TheInformaticist: The problem is, that any system that is consistent, will be incomplete, and any system that is complete, will be inconsistent.
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2020-09-26T22:45:38Z |3b| doesn't find that to be a problem
2020-09-26T22:45:51Z |3b|: (mostly due to not caring about those properties)
2020-09-26T22:45:55Z mfiano: incomplete to some, inconsistent to all
2020-09-26T22:46:54Z White_Flame: programming is about internally complete models, not externally complete models
2020-09-26T22:47:02Z White_Flame: (and even internally complete is often not reached)
2020-09-26T22:47:06Z White_Flame: simply to get things working
2020-09-26T22:47:18Z |3b|: or about random hacks because we need to ship last week :(
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2020-09-26T22:48:37Z aeth: TheInformaticist: it's only really a problem for type systems
2020-09-26T22:48:58Z aeth: CL's escape hatch here is to have SATISFIES types which are inefficient and probably not checkable at compile time
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2020-09-26T22:53:41Z TheInformaticist: <aeth>: I see. I only began studying Common Lisp yesterday, though I have studied other Lisps.
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2020-09-26T23:42:31Z sveit: hi. maybe I should ask in #sbcl, but i have been trying to compile SBCL on non-rooted Android (through an app called Termux if anyone has experience). By disabling threads, and making some other small modifications to various lisp files to avoid conflicts between "linux" and "android" parts of the build, it gets somewhat far, but fails because the SBCL binary has "text relocations", which are not supported on Android. Do people know how
2020-09-26T23:42:32Z sveit: to fix/get around this? Thanks@
2020-09-26T23:44:06Z sveit: if anyone has experience with cross-compilation/compilation using the NDK or otherwise, or any other method to get a binary running on bare Android, I'd be very interested as well. I do have SBCL running under a "fake" chroot (called proot), but this is a significantly slower environment.
2020-09-26T23:46:03Z sveit: i understand it's thankless, but i wish the documentation for the SBCL build would be a bit better. for example grepping through the source i see various mysterious references to Android/NDK, so I think someone must have already figured it out
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2020-09-27T03:22:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-27T04:03:09Z sveit: beach: good evening (here)!
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2020-09-27T04:18:32Z aeth: sveit: I believe you mean (format t "~A: good evening ~A!" beach (here))
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2020-09-27T05:34:44Z sveit: maybe they're still taking suggestions for additions to the standard :)
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2020-09-27T07:31:21Z contrapunctus: beach: I was thinking of doing as you suggested - writing pure Lisp libraries instead of using FFI. Is it possible to write an audio library this way? Especially for programs which want to use PulseAudio or JACK? 🤔
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2020-09-27T07:33:49Z beach: contrapunctus: That would be fantastic!  I have never attempted to interface with those systems so, I don't know what it involves.  Some reading might be required.
2020-09-27T07:34:16Z beach: It has bound to be some kind of wire protocol, and it is hopefully documented.
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2020-09-27T07:39:25Z moon-child: contrapunctus: it looks like at least in the case of pulseaudio, the wire protocol is undocumented.  Which /could/ mean it's unstable.  (https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/pulseaudio-discuss/2010-April/006676.html)
2020-09-27T07:39:40Z beach: *sigh*
2020-09-27T07:40:01Z moon-child: contrapunctus: in the case of jack, I know there are multiple independent server implementations; so I expect the story there is better
2020-09-27T07:40:48Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, I'm worried that the only stable interface would be the C interface.
2020-09-27T07:41:45Z MichaelRaskin: Yeah, Poettering is known for saying that committing to too many stable interfaces is dangerous, and «dangerous» is literally the word used (although in another context).
2020-09-27T07:43:33Z no-defun-allowed: Reminds me of another software guy that gave a talk about how he needed to break implementations in his messaging program or the world would end, so you better not write another implementation.
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2020-09-27T08:00:45Z contrapunctus: It's a daunting task, especially for someone like me (no experience in programming at this level, limited available time for programming) 🤔
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2020-09-27T08:10:20Z beach: contrapunctus: There is no rush.
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2020-09-27T08:13:06Z beach: contrapunctus: In fact, you could write something that uses neither Jack nor PulseAudio to start with, and just use the ALSA interface directly.  You can design your own substitute for Jack and PulseAudio in the form of a CLOS protocol, designed to run in the same process as the applications.   Such a thing would be useful on Mezzano and ultimately on CLOSOS.
2020-09-27T08:14:52Z beach: contrapunctus: Then you can write your applications so that the use that protocol.  If you want your applications to have a GUI, all of them could be written as CLIM/McCLIM applications.
2020-09-27T08:15:36Z contrapunctus: beach: ah, that could work too (although I have no experience with using these APIs, much less designing them). The most important thing is that existing audio plugins work...but I guess that's orthogonal, because those use LADSPA/LV2/DSSI 🤔
2020-09-27T08:16:10Z beach: I must take your word for that.
2020-09-27T08:19:36Z beach: I was merely suggesting a way that you could concentrate on writing your applications in Common Lisp without chasing unstable protocols, at least to begin with.  And your code would then be useful in different settings without modification.
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2020-09-27T08:24:55Z no-defun-allowed: You could use Harmony for the protocol: <https://shirakumo.github.io/harmony/>
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2020-09-27T08:26:49Z no-defun-allowed: I wrote some code with that to synthesize notes coming in from a MIDI keyboard, and it was pretty good (except that I couldn't figure out how to reduce the latency of PulseAudio, so my timing was awful). The only problem for a full Common Lisp audio system could be that it uses foreign vectors to pass buffers around, but it's not hard to imagine a Harmony with Lisp vectors.
2020-09-27T08:27:13Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Harmony sounds like a good plan.
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2020-09-27T08:33:28Z contrapunctus: no-defun-allowed: oh, thanks for sharing that
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2020-09-27T08:49:19Z contrapunctus: Harmony looks amazing, I'm surprised I never noticed it on awesome-cl
2020-09-27T08:59:19Z beach: And the author is around, so if you have issues or suggestions for improvement, they are likely to be taken into account.
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2020-09-27T09:04:27Z MayheM_FAN: help
2020-09-27T09:04:28Z MayheM_FAN: https://pastebin.com/PY1BJkNs
2020-09-27T09:05:00Z beach: MayheM_FAN: Please describe what this link contains.
2020-09-27T09:05:16Z beach: I never click on links without a description.
2020-09-27T09:05:21Z MayheM_FAN: cffi loading error
2020-09-27T09:06:35Z MayheM_FAN: cffi-features was unable to load because of this
2020-09-27T09:12:02Z beach: MayheM_FAN: I know nothing about FFI, but I am guessing you are not providing enough information for anyone to help out, like what you tried in order to get that error, what Common Lisp implementation you are using, on which OS, etc.
2020-09-27T09:13:06Z MayheM_FAN: i tried loading cl-tcod using quicklisp, im using clisp and im on windows
2020-09-27T09:14:02Z beach: MayheM_FAN: That's a very unusual combination.  I think most people here use SBCL on Linux.
2020-09-27T09:14:44Z MichaelRaskin: And if you are using the latest _release_ of CLisp, it's kind of expected to fail to load random things by now…
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2020-09-27T09:15:03Z MichaelRaskin: (development snapshot has at least a chance, releases are too old for anything)
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2020-09-27T09:15:56Z MayheM_FAN: i think i need libffi?
2020-09-27T09:16:31Z beach: You are not sure?
2020-09-27T09:16:52Z beach: What is it that you are trying to do?
2020-09-27T09:17:06Z MichaelRaskin: libffi is definitely a library that exists and is used for FFI; no idea where to get a fresh Windows build
2020-09-27T09:18:19Z MayheM_FAN: loading cl-tcod with quicklisp, while it was loading cffi-features (cl-tcod requires cffi) it gave me that error
2020-09-27T09:19:33Z phoe: MayheM_FAN: do you have libffi installed on windows?
2020-09-27T09:19:59Z beach: MayheM_FAN: You seem to be new here.  Is this one of your first Common Lisp projects?
2020-09-27T09:20:07Z MayheM_FAN: phoe: no
2020-09-27T09:20:08Z phoe: https://proj.goldencode.com/projects/p2j/wiki/Building_and_Installing_libffi_on_Windows
2020-09-27T09:20:11Z MayheM_FAN: beach: yeah
2020-09-27T09:20:20Z phoe: MayheM_FAN: then you know the source of the problem
2020-09-27T09:20:25Z MayheM_FAN: thank you phoe
2020-09-27T09:20:47Z beach: MayheM_FAN: Wow, you really hit the jackpot.  Trying to learn Common Lisp starting with FFI using CLISP on Windows.
2020-09-27T09:21:10Z phoe: I mean, if you're okay with preaching, `apt install libffi-dev` on debian would solve the issue for you
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2020-09-27T09:21:44Z beach: MayheM_FAN: Let me guess, using some Windows IDE for coding?
2020-09-27T09:21:53Z MayheM_FAN: no
2020-09-27T09:21:55Z phoe: but, yeah, CLISP 2.49 is old and ancient and I cannot recommend it to anyone
2020-09-27T09:21:58Z MayheM_FAN: emacs
2020-09-27T09:22:11Z beach: That's one good thing at least.
2020-09-27T09:22:14Z phoe: it's generally better to use SBCL
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2020-09-27T09:22:32Z beach: MayheM_FAN: But you are unlikely to do well with that combination.
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2020-09-27T09:29:12Z phoe: MayheM_FAN: I see that some chocolatey packages include libffi DLLs, maybe you could scavenge it off one of those
2020-09-27T09:29:31Z phoe: that'll save you the hassle with compiling it yourself
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2020-09-27T10:16:50Z MayheM_FAN: can i just use the prebuild libffi thats on the bottom of https://proj.goldencode.com/projects/p2j/wiki/Building_and_Installing_libffi_on_Windows
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2020-09-27T10:23:02Z beach: MayheM_FAN: Again, my guess is that very few people here will be able to help you, given that they are not using the unique combination of implementation and OS that you are.  I hope I am wrong, of course.
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2020-09-27T10:32:48Z phoe: MayheM_FAN: I guess you can, just remember to grab the proper 32/64bit DLL
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2020-09-27T10:33:09Z phoe: it needs to be the same architecture as your Lisp implementation, otherwise it won't load
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2020-09-27T10:34:51Z MayheM_FAN: know what,, im just gonna install linux
2020-09-27T10:35:22Z phoe: that's a good choice, too
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2020-09-27T14:00:05Z TheInformaticist: Are Common Lisp and Clojure the same language?
2020-09-27T14:00:23Z MichaelRaskin: No
2020-09-27T14:01:28Z TheInformaticist: Are they similar?
2020-09-27T14:01:38Z beach: TheInformaticist: Clojure is considered a functional language.  Common Lisp is not.
2020-09-27T14:02:08Z TheInformaticist: If Common Lisp is not a functional language, then what IS it?
2020-09-27T14:02:13Z beach: TheInformaticist: Common Lisp has an independent standard.  Clojure does not.
2020-09-27T14:02:35Z beach: TheInformaticist: Multi-paradigm.  A lot of modern Common Lisp code uses the Common Lisp object system (CLOS) a lot.
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2020-09-27T14:03:04Z TheInformaticist: I see. So Common Lisp is more flexible.
2020-09-27T14:03:28Z beach: I would be very careful with such simplistic comparisons.
2020-09-27T14:03:50Z beach: There is no widely agreed-upon metric for "flexibility".
2020-09-27T14:03:52Z TheInformaticist: Why, will my hand get blown off by a grenade?
2020-09-27T14:04:26Z beach: More likely, you get trashed in some forum.
2020-09-27T14:04:35Z TheInformaticist: Oh well, fuck me.
2020-09-27T14:05:06Z TheInformaticist: If you want to trash me, trash away, old boy.
2020-09-27T14:05:14Z heisig: beach: Saying Common Lisp is not a functional language is like saying German is not a language for writing poems.
2020-09-27T14:05:28Z MichaelRaskin: (naturally, a lot of Clojure code uses a lot of objects — but from Java object system)
2020-09-27T14:05:47Z heisig: Neither is true.  But it depends mostly on the author/programmer, and not so much on the language.
2020-09-27T14:06:10Z beach: I'll be quiet.
2020-09-27T14:06:47Z beach: I wasn't looking for a debate.  Merely trying to inform TheInformaticist.
2020-09-27T14:07:23Z TheInformaticist: Hey, don't blame me. I'm just the simpleton asking questions.
2020-09-27T14:07:37Z beach: Nobody blamed you for anything.
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2020-09-27T14:07:56Z TheInformaticist: Thank God.
2020-09-27T14:09:23Z sts-q: The cool thing about CL is it did not change a bit within the last 30 years!
2020-09-27T14:09:26Z Nilby: Sometimes it feels like Goethe has a similar aesthetic as old epic Common Lisp.
2020-09-27T14:10:21Z MichaelRaskin: sts-q: except everything (well, ASDF), depends on extensions
2020-09-27T14:10:46Z TheInformaticist: It really hasn't changed? That's a good sign, in my opinion. Everything's getting updated so constantly nowadays, you don't know what's going to be broken next.
2020-09-27T14:10:49Z MichaelRaskin: Still more uniform that the Scheme situation, of course
2020-09-27T14:11:47Z TheInformaticist: That's good. By the way, does Common Lisp have primitive procedures for graphics?
2020-09-27T14:12:10Z MichaelRaskin: No
2020-09-27T14:12:32Z beach: I know of no language that does.
2020-09-27T14:12:37Z TheInformaticist: I see. So do you use a graphics package?
2020-09-27T14:12:43Z MichaelRaskin: beach: QBasic
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2020-09-27T14:13:05Z MichaelRaskin: On a more positive note, Racket
2020-09-27T14:13:21Z TheInformaticist: Well beach, back in the good old days, most languages came with grahics.
2020-09-27T14:13:28Z TheInformaticist: *graphics
2020-09-27T14:13:31Z Nilby: also PostScript
2020-09-27T14:13:55Z TheInformaticist: With the exception of FORTRAN and C, of course.
2020-09-27T14:14:10Z beach: MichaelRaskin: When I say or hear "language", I think if a definition, usually in the form of an independent standard, of what some language processor allows or does not allow.
2020-09-27T14:14:24Z beach: Does QBasic and Racket have independent standards?
2020-09-27T14:14:36Z beach: TheInformaticist: Name two.
2020-09-27T14:14:54Z TheInformaticist: beach: True Basic, Turbo Pascal
2020-09-27T14:15:00Z TheInformaticist: BOOM
2020-09-27T14:15:12Z beach: TheInformaticist: Turbo Pascal is a product, not a language.
2020-09-27T14:15:23Z beach: True Basic probably the same.
2020-09-27T14:15:47Z TheInformaticist: beach: You don't get to weasel out of things by making your own definitions.
2020-09-27T14:16:29Z TheInformaticist: True Basic is ANSI Basic, owned by the designers of the language, Kemeny and Kurtz.
2020-09-27T14:17:09Z beach: So ANSI Basic is the language.
2020-09-27T14:17:18Z TheInformaticist: And for you info, beach, you can't program a computer with a standard. You need a language for that.
2020-09-27T14:17:43Z beach: Thank you for that information.
2020-09-27T14:18:33Z beach was under the impression that an "implementation" was required for that.  Wrong again, I guess.
2020-09-27T14:19:30Z TheInformaticist: beach: You remind me of my ex-wife.
2020-09-27T14:20:33Z MichaelRaskin: Given that an interpreter or compiler typically comes before any standards, and then becomes or not an implementation of standard… no, you can perfectly use a thing that is not yet an implementation of anything
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2020-09-27T14:23:58Z TheInformaticist: Can I make cool video games with Common Lisp?
2020-09-27T14:24:15Z MichaelRaskin: Well, Shinmera does
2020-09-27T14:24:36Z TheInformaticist: Who is Shinmera? Do you have a link?
2020-09-27T14:25:53Z MichaelRaskin: https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/388
2020-09-27T14:26:04Z TheInformaticist: Thanks.
2020-09-27T14:28:33Z TheInformaticist: You know, I was using a Common Lisp tiling window manager for quite a while, and I really liked it.
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2020-09-27T14:29:30Z TheInformaticist: But then I got EXWM and started using Emacs more. But to be honest, that other window manager was better, because you weren
2020-09-27T14:29:34Z TheInformaticist: t
2020-09-27T14:29:56Z TheInformaticist: having to fiddle with buffers all the time.
2020-09-27T14:31:25Z MichaelRaskin: Yeah, still using StumpWM. And for an editor, I use an editor extending what is promised by an independent standard, heh
2020-09-27T14:31:55Z TheInformaticist: Which editor is that?
2020-09-27T14:32:31Z MichaelRaskin: Specifically vim; but _some_ vi is required by POSIX/Single Unix Specification (which is approximately the same thing, modulo legalese)
2020-09-27T14:33:05Z TheInformaticist: I see. You know...
2020-09-27T14:33:18Z TheInformaticist: Shhhh, don't tell anybody...
2020-09-27T14:33:36Z TheInformaticist: I secretly really like ed.
2020-09-27T14:34:23Z TheInformaticist: I feel like a ninja kung-fu artist every time I use it. Whahhhhhh!!!!
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2020-09-27T14:34:44Z MichaelRaskin: Who needs ed in the era where sed exists
2020-09-27T14:35:10Z beach: Let's try to stay on topic, please.
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2020-09-27T14:36:17Z TheInformaticist: Hey, I should make an editor and call it bread...and write it in Lisp. There, I'm on topic.
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2020-09-27T14:37:45Z TheInformaticist: beach: You should work for the government.
2020-09-27T14:38:58Z TheInformaticist: beach:...writing Lisp programs, of course.
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2020-09-27T14:55:38Z contrapunctus: MichaelRaskin: a Lisper using Vim? Whoa 🤯
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2020-09-27T14:59:43Z MichaelRaskin: And liking POSIX Shell. Common Lisp is a valuable tool, not an exclusive religion.
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2020-09-27T15:02:40Z TheInformaticist: Does anyone ever do data anylitics with Lisp? Seems like it would be fun.
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2020-09-27T15:04:30Z MichaelRaskin: Depends on your definition, but probably something I have done would qualify
2020-09-27T15:07:08Z TheInformaticist: Cool. I've also thought that sh or bash tools can be really powerful for cleaning up and formatting data, and yet most "data analytics" people seem to be unaware that these tools exist.
2020-09-27T15:08:32Z TheInformaticist: I mean coreutils and such
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2020-09-27T15:23:54Z TheInformaticist: MichaelRaskin: Ever use the suckless terminal (which is definitely NOT written in Lisp, unlike eshell)?
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2020-09-27T15:27:00Z MichaelRaskin: That is far into #lispcafe zone. (But nope, urxvt, sometimes xterm and mlterm, fbterm when without X)
2020-09-27T15:28:31Z TheInformaticist: Is #lispcafe another channel?
2020-09-27T15:29:47Z sts-q: Yes
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2020-09-27T15:38:09Z mseddon: So given there is no standard way to e.g. locate defstruct constructor function names, how would one go about implementing a custom reader that supports #S syntax vaguely portably?
2020-09-27T15:38:10Z APic: go #Suicide
2020-09-27T15:38:13Z APic: Fail
2020-09-27T15:38:13Z APic: Sorry
2020-09-27T15:38:21Z APic: Wrong Network 😉
2020-09-27T15:38:34Z mseddon: Lul. Also not on my list of accepted solutions
2020-09-27T15:39:07Z MichaelRaskin: Why custom reader and not a reader-macro?
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2020-09-27T15:40:36Z Nilby: mseddon: Sadly there can't a portable version, but you can make one that has implementation-specific code for most implementations.
2020-09-27T15:43:08Z mseddon: MichaelRaskin specifically I want to have a standardized reader for bootstrapping.
2020-09-27T15:44:34Z mseddon: Nilby right.. i found various classoid apis for sbcl, but there is no reflection defstruct library that would cover that? :/
2020-09-27T15:45:38Z mseddon: MichaelRaskin, so like eclector I want to track source information, which the standard reader does not support
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2020-09-27T15:46:28Z mseddon: But eclector bails on #S and leaves a hook for you to tie into your implementation, so I wondered if there was a better way
2020-09-27T15:47:48Z mseddon: Everything else is 100% portable, but sadly I think I have hit an oversight in the spec
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2020-09-27T15:52:23Z Nilby: mseddon: Last time I looked a I didn't find one. I have code that works on sbcl, ccl, and maybe a few others. Maybe the people working on eclector have some suggestion?
2020-09-27T15:53:48Z mseddon: Nilby thanks, I will check. Certainly trivial defstruct reflection that works across platforms would be useful for me here
2020-09-27T15:54:26Z Nilby: Me too!
2020-09-27T15:55:34Z mseddon: Nilby happy to help add stuff if you put a project up somewhere!
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2020-09-27T16:08:49Z Nilby: I'm not smart enough to pass the captcha on plaster anymore. :(
2020-09-27T16:11:04Z _death: (find-if (anagram-of captcha) dictionary)
2020-09-27T16:12:35Z Nilby: mseddon: I'm not really a good choice for being a project maintainer, but here's what I had: https://bpa.st/C4OQ . You're welcome to do whatever with it. This was designed for use in eclector.
2020-09-27T16:13:44Z mseddon: Nilby, wonderful, thanks very much!
2020-09-27T16:13:46Z Nilby: Of course it does bad things that "one should never do"
2020-09-27T16:14:09Z mseddon: At this point I think the warranty is well and truly void :)
2020-09-27T16:15:51Z Nilby: yep. This is one of my top changes I would make to CL. To have a standardized make-structure-instance or something.
2020-09-27T16:17:13Z _death: you can check the result of make-load-form-using-slots
2020-09-27T16:18:30Z _death: for sbcl only the struct name is needed to allocate an instance.. for others you may need something more elaborate
2020-09-27T16:19:16Z mseddon: _death: good shout! I will dig deeper tomorrow when I'm at the computer, thanks
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2020-09-27T16:21:34Z _death: *...saving-slots
2020-09-27T16:22:24Z mseddon: Yeah, I figured ;) thanks again though, I hadn't come across that function before
2020-09-27T16:25:50Z Nilby: _death: Your words have a very high ratio of making me realize I'm stupid and have to rewrite my code. :)
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2020-09-27T16:31:33Z _death: sorry, I'll keep quiet ;)
2020-09-27T16:32:03Z mseddon: _death: please don't :p
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2020-09-27T16:39:10Z Nilby: _death: Ya. Don't. My code needs more "memeto mori".
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2020-09-27T17:08:06Z fzfzfzv28: hey can someone explain why (typep #("hello") '(vector number *)) => T?
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2020-09-27T17:10:22Z phoe: fzfzfzv28: (upgraded-array-element-type 'number) ;=> T
2020-09-27T17:10:29Z phoe: that is because of array upgrading
2020-09-27T17:10:56Z phoe: '(vector number *) most likely becomes '(vector t *) because of the element type being upgraded
2020-09-27T17:11:33Z phoe: that is because numbers have 1) unbounded size in the general case, 2) can be complex or real
2020-09-27T17:11:55Z Nilby: number is a rich enough type that it might as well be a generic lisp object.
2020-09-27T17:12:35Z fzfzfzv28: thank you! I tried (typep #("hello") '(vector (integer 0 10) *)) => NIL which makes sense in that context.
2020-09-27T17:12:55Z fzfzfzv28: is there a way to do something like this that isnt implementation dependent?
2020-09-27T17:12:57Z phoe: yes, because (integer 0 10) likely gets upgraded to a fixnum, or some subset thereof
2020-09-27T17:13:21Z phoe: fzfzfzv28: what exactly do you want to do though? check if all elements of a vector are numbers?
2020-09-27T17:13:32Z fzfzfzv28: yes
2020-09-27T17:13:39Z phoe: (every #'numberp #("hello"))
2020-09-27T17:14:04Z phoe: I don't think the CL type system is powerful enough to perform this on the type level, unless you use SATISFIES
2020-09-27T17:14:15Z phoe: (also, do you *really* need arbitrary precision numbers and complexes?)
2020-09-27T17:16:35Z phoe: (asking because CL is efficient and nice to play with when it comes to fixed-width byte and float types)
2020-09-27T17:17:17Z dbotton: what is the lisp way of something I do always in Ada ie create a named type such as myint that has a range of 0 to 100
2020-09-27T17:17:31Z phoe: dbotton: DEFTYPE can do that
2020-09-27T17:17:46Z phoe: (deftype my-integer () '(integer 0 100))
2020-09-27T17:17:56Z fzfzfzv28: @phoe: my actual use case is im reducing a vector of strings and functions that produce strings into one string.
2020-09-27T17:18:04Z dbotton: so then I could use that it a declare type in a function
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2020-09-27T17:18:52Z phoe: dbotton: yes
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2020-09-27T17:19:10Z phoe: fzfzfzv28: a vector of strings and functions? you mean a heterogenous vector?
2020-09-27T17:19:22Z phoe: something like (vector "foo" #'bar "baz" #'quux) ?
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2020-09-27T17:21:47Z phoe: dbotton: e.g. it is common to (deftype octet () '(unsigned-byte 8)) and then e.g. (declare (type octet x y z))
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2020-09-27T17:22:50Z dbotton: I keep getting more excited the further I go in exploring the combo of static and dynamic typing
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2020-09-27T17:23:52Z dbotton: so using satisfied allows that every declared use if the type would pass some arbitrary tesy
2020-09-27T17:23:57Z dbotton: tests
2020-09-27T17:24:15Z dbotton: so I could add a whole in my definition
2020-09-27T17:24:29Z dbotton: like 1..50 and 55..100
2020-09-27T17:24:34Z dbotton: correct?
2020-09-27T17:24:54Z phoe: dbotton: whole? what do you mean?
2020-09-27T17:25:09Z dbotton: like a range I just mentioned
2020-09-27T17:25:13Z phoe: the ranges 1..50 and 55..100 are expressible via an OR type, (or (integer 1 50) (integer 55 100))
2020-09-27T17:25:17Z phoe: no need to use SATISFIES
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2020-09-27T17:25:57Z phoe: (you could, it would just be a bit more costly)
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2020-09-27T17:26:05Z dbotton: understand
2020-09-27T17:26:57Z dbotton: appreciated taking a bit longer then my usual to get up to speed on a lang
2020-09-27T17:27:18Z dbotton: but I am more and more impressed.
2020-09-27T17:27:19Z phoe: no worries, learning Lisp can be a bit of a mind twister
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2020-09-27T17:28:14Z dbotton: granted that would require some tools to enforce certain policies but seems that critical systems certainly could be done in lisp
2020-09-27T17:29:41Z mseddon: dbotton: moreover, it seems to generally more make sense in lisp. Though as you discover, the capability is buried a bit
2020-09-27T17:29:48Z dbotton: I am finding the level of flexibility at compile time can make this a more then ideal choice once control of the GC in check
2020-09-27T17:30:48Z dbotton: I've been writing Ada for good 25 years
2020-09-27T17:31:07Z dbotton: and now wishing I had stumbled on lisp earlier
2020-09-27T17:31:36Z TheInformaticist: Are there multiple implementations of Common Lisp, or just one?
2020-09-27T17:32:07Z mseddon: Many, many.
2020-09-27T17:32:30Z dbotton: and many with very nice open licensing
2020-09-27T17:33:00Z phoe: TheInformaticist: I know of seven alive ones for sure
2020-09-27T17:33:03Z TheInformaticist: I see. Which one is the best? Just kidding...which one is FSF?
2020-09-27T17:33:08Z phoe: SBCL, CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL are the free ones
2020-09-27T17:33:16Z phoe: LispWorks and ACL are the commercial ones
2020-09-27T17:33:38Z TheInformaticist: I don't do proprietary software.
2020-09-27T17:33:43Z mseddon: Dbotton: arian 5 would not have blown up in cl, it wouldn't let you unsafely cast to a 16 bit value
2020-09-27T17:33:53Z shoshin: what about clisp?
2020-09-27T17:34:13Z dbotton: that was user error
2020-09-27T17:34:18Z MichaelRaskin: mseddon: of all things, Ariane 5 would not be saved by Common Lisp
2020-09-27T17:34:27Z phoe: CLISP is unmaintained and I cannot recommend it at the moment
2020-09-27T17:34:35Z mseddon: Well no. CL is not a hard realtime system
2020-09-27T17:34:54Z dbotton: doesn't mean can't be :)
2020-09-27T17:34:54Z MichaelRaskin: CLISP development snapshot is better, but they cannot get around to make a release
2020-09-27T17:35:04Z dbotton: the pieces are all there and more
2020-09-27T17:37:14Z dbotton: once I fully grocked cl I'll plan on doing some docs for my own start on what is needed translation from Ada etc
2020-09-27T17:37:27Z TheInformaticist: OK, which one is good for a new learner that is on Linux and uses Emacs?
2020-09-27T17:37:45Z dbotton: sdcl
2020-09-27T17:37:54Z MichaelRaskin: SBCL is probably the most popular one
2020-09-27T17:38:17Z dbotton: https://lisp-lang.org/learn/getting-started/
2020-09-27T17:38:27Z TheInformaticist: OK.
2020-09-27T17:38:34Z mseddon: Yeah. Go SBCL
2020-09-27T17:39:41Z dbotton: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2020-09-27T17:39:47Z dbotton: then read that
2020-09-27T17:39:52Z TheInformaticist: OK, I'll look at both. I also just installed a weird version of Scheme nobody has heard of, LOL...but I know about it because of a professor.
2020-09-27T17:40:26Z mseddon: Scheme is an interesting lisp but vastly different to CL
2020-09-27T17:41:07Z TheInformaticist: That's why I'm learning CL. I'll come back to Scheme later.
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2020-09-27T17:43:02Z mseddon: Right
2020-09-27T17:46:43Z TheInformaticist: I'm also learning C++ right now in class. I know this is crazy, but I'm working overtime, doing all my programming exercises in both languages...trying to see if I can do my final project in a functional style. I want to give my professor a pleasant surprise.
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2020-09-27T17:48:49Z mseddon: Do not overfill the bucket
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2020-09-27T17:54:21Z TheInformaticist: I'm having fun...no worries.
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2020-09-27T18:50:20Z dbotton: anyone know a good resource book chapter or online that would have all the "type checking" related lisp info in one place
2020-09-27T18:50:47Z dbotton: clhp doesn't count
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2020-09-27T18:51:17Z dbotton: clhs rather
2020-09-27T18:51:17Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for rather.
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2020-09-27T18:53:29Z mseddon: Kaplan-ullman type propagation. If you find a complete set of rules lmk...
2020-09-27T18:53:59Z sm2n: common lisp recipes chapter 13 maybe?
2020-09-27T18:54:21Z sm2n: has lots of examples, though the spec is more comprehensive
2020-09-27T18:55:46Z sm2n: that doesn't really talk of inference though, as that depends on the implementation
2020-09-27T18:58:04Z dbotton: thanks
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2020-09-27T19:09:02Z mseddon: Ah yes, as sm2n says, no implementations need to support inference
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2020-09-27T19:09:21Z mseddon: The rules are defined entirely by runtime behaviour
2020-09-27T19:10:19Z mseddon: But e.g. ts has rediscovered this
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2020-09-27T19:31:44Z Xach: Not great that (asdf:system-relative-pathname "system" "foo") is critically different from (asdf:system-relative-pathname "system" #p"foo"))
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2020-09-27T19:42:34Z phoe: Xach: what do you mean?
2020-09-27T19:42:52Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2061#2061
2020-09-27T19:43:22Z phoe: the only different thing is TYPE versus VERSION in the two resulting pathnames
2020-09-27T19:44:05Z Xach: phoe: read the sources; if you pass a string, it goes through asdf/uiop's non-standard pathname parsing mechanism, which mangles e.g. "foo/**/*.txt"
2020-09-27T19:44:11Z Xach: if you pass a pathname, it doesn't.
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2020-09-27T19:48:36Z Fare: non-standard, but portable, unlike the standard, but non-portable, mechanism.
2020-09-27T19:49:25Z Fare: Unhappily, you have to choose between the two. Happily, you can.
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2020-09-27T19:51:16Z Fare: portable, including to non-Unix systems like Genera, RMCL, Windows, etc., where the separator is not /
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2020-09-27T19:59:27Z alanz: dbotton_, perhaps this is a background: https://alhassy.github.io/TypedLisp.html
2020-09-27T20:00:17Z alanz: hmm, he left
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2020-09-27T20:17:07Z dbotton_: I am here
2020-09-27T20:17:49Z dbotton_: I'll take a look
2020-09-27T20:18:24Z dbotton_: but I need it to be standard CL for my plans
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2020-09-27T20:22:13Z mseddon: I think the idea is you would adapt it...
2020-09-27T20:22:57Z mseddon: It's a well defined dataflow equation.
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2020-09-27T20:24:03Z mseddon: dbotton_: thanks, that was an enjoyable read, I'd not come across it.
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2020-09-27T20:28:30Z dbotton: I'll take a better look at it tomorrow evening
2020-09-27T20:28:48Z dbotton: thanks. heading out
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2020-09-27T20:40:14Z anddam: howdy
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2020-09-27T20:46:00Z Xach revisits the inconvenient death of bitbucket mercurual repos
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2020-09-27T20:50:07Z AeroNotix: how do I represent a bit field in a C struct when using cffi??
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2020-09-27T20:51:42Z _death: there's defbitfield
2020-09-27T20:53:07Z AeroNotix: the library I am wrapping sets a struct field to `enum foobar flags:8`. The enum is defined with defcenum. How do I use it like that?
2020-09-27T20:53:53Z AeroNotix: it seems I will need to override the type in my wrapper from the enum, to type I create with defbitfield. Seems a bit awkward.
2020-09-27T20:54:05Z AeroNotix: I saw defbitfield, but was wondering if there's a better way
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2020-09-27T20:55:45Z _death: heh, I don't think I've encountered anything like that (and I've been doing this for some time..).. I'd guess it's not even standard C, but I could be wrong
2020-09-27T20:56:16Z AeroNotix: let me link you the original source, sec
2020-09-27T20:56:21Z _death: you can manually convert between enum and int
2020-09-27T20:56:34Z AeroNotix: it's not an int, though, it's uint8
2020-09-27T20:57:00Z AeroNotix: https://github.com/litespeedtech/lsquic/blob/master/include/lsxpack_header.h#L60
2020-09-27T20:57:03Z AeroNotix: _death: ^
2020-09-27T20:57:15Z AeroNotix: enum defined just above that
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2020-09-27T20:58:49Z _death: defbitfield can take a base type
2020-09-27T21:00:40Z AeroNotix: _death: so I'm using swig to generate the bindings... I would like to keep using swig just to make things automatic (unless there's a different auto-approach). I kinda don't want to need to maintain some cffi definition code.
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2020-09-27T21:03:18Z _death: ok, C99 standard 6.7.2.1 paragraph 4 says "A bit-field shall have a type that is a qualified or unqualified version of _Bool, signed int, unsigned int, or some other implementation-defined type".. so I'm guessing it's an extension
2020-09-27T21:05:39Z _death: AeroNotix: never used swig (well, I may have tried it a decade ago I think..).. for automatic wrapping I use autowrap
2020-09-27T21:05:51Z AeroNotix: _death: I'll check autowrap out
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2020-09-27T21:16:28Z AeroNotix: autowrap looks good but I would need to rewrite a bunch of stuff. Not a bad thing just some thing not for today
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2020-09-27T21:27:16Z p_l: btw, does anyone know of solid implementation of Symbolics' DEFRESOURCE macro with permissive license (unlike LGPLed one in McCLIM?)
2020-09-27T21:28:39Z mseddon: Ooh. Also interested.
2020-09-27T21:28:47Z _death: maybe the franz clim has one?
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2020-09-27T21:30:41Z phoe: https://github.com/franzinc/clim2/blob/4d4712f28b397523d8b30059de60d5b48f52a1b7/clim/defresource.lisp#L90
2020-09-27T21:30:44Z phoe: seems so
2020-09-27T21:31:11Z AeroNotix: phoe: oh hey, just came across the book you're writing. Definitely will be adding that to the collection
2020-09-27T21:31:17Z phoe blush
2020-09-27T21:31:29Z AeroNotix: are hard copies for sure going to be available?
2020-09-27T21:31:49Z phoe: you mean hardcover? I think not
2020-09-27T21:31:52Z AeroNotix: oh
2020-09-27T21:31:57Z AeroNotix: the site made it seem like they will at some point
2020-09-27T21:31:59Z phoe: only paperbacks and ebooks, AFAIK
2020-09-27T21:32:13Z AeroNotix: oh paperback, yes that's fine
2020-09-27T21:32:19Z phoe: oh! yes, these will be there
2020-09-27T21:32:26Z phoe: I thought you meant hardcovers
2020-09-27T21:32:37Z AeroNotix: nah I just meant physical
2020-09-27T21:32:42Z AeroNotix: really cool topic btw
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2020-09-27T21:34:47Z p_l: phoe: thanks, will have to study how exactly it works (symbolics one used intrinsics iirc) and check the license
2020-09-27T21:36:23Z phoe: the license seems like a simple MIT one
2020-09-27T21:36:28Z phoe: but I'll re-read it
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2020-09-27T21:50:23Z MetaYan: SBCL 2.0.9 has appeared.
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2020-09-27T21:54:42Z TMA: phoe: it is the ancient BSD one (pre 1990) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_licenses#Previous_license
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2020-09-27T21:55:42Z phoe: ouch, I see
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2020-09-27T22:04:35Z aeth: oh no, SBCL removed DEC Alpha support
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2020-09-27T22:12:08Z Xach: oh nooooo
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2020-09-27T23:01:29Z Aurora_v_kosmose: rip?
2020-09-27T23:03:37Z aeth: DEC Alpha was actually killed by Itanium. I guess they figured that they couldn't compete with Intel there so they... very prematurely gave up.
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2020-09-27T23:08:42Z p_l: aeth: more likely is that intel said "pretty please" and compaq answered "how high"
2020-09-27T23:09:04Z aeth: yeah, since they probably made way more money as an x86 OEM
2020-09-27T23:09:46Z p_l: aeth: when Alpha was canceled, it was the speed leader, Itanium was still "will be available soon, honestly", and pretty much everyone outside of decision making circle was caught flat footed
2020-09-27T23:09:57Z aeth: If SBCL dropping DEC Alpha makes room for RISC-V, though, I guess all is fine.
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2020-09-28T00:38:27Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Is DEC Alpha hardware even still available to test builds with?
2020-09-28T00:38:45Z p_l: probably in bigger quantities than RISC-V :V
2020-09-28T00:39:04Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Hm... risc-v have some free FPGA implementations around, no?
2020-09-28T00:39:14Z p_l: Aurora_v_kosmose: if you have /expensive/ devkit
2020-09-28T00:39:28Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Yeah, but unlike dec-alpha you wouldn't have IP rights preventing that.
2020-09-28T00:39:53Z p_l: Aurora_v_kosmose: yes, but with alpha I only need to get one of the many complete computer systems built with it
2020-09-28T00:40:02Z Aurora_v_kosmose: And those are still findable?
2020-09-28T00:40:06Z p_l: yes
2020-09-28T00:40:20Z Aurora_v_kosmose: And I mean, reasonably, not like Lisp Machines which will merely cost you a few millions.
2020-09-28T00:40:21Z p_l: usually for cheaper than FPGA that can run a good SBCL testbed
2020-09-28T00:41:02Z p_l: for the prices that Lisp machines fetch you could probably get a half-filled GS1280
2020-09-28T00:41:13Z p_l: which was the top-end model from end of production line
2020-09-28T00:41:31Z p_l: that one is reasonably hard to find, because chances are it is still running production workload
2020-09-28T00:42:12Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Huh, that's somewhat impressive.
2020-09-28T00:42:53Z p_l: Aurora_v_kosmose: the "shocking!" revelation to HP was that customers didn't want to buy Itanium :>
2020-09-28T00:43:04Z p_l: to the point that they had to restart Alpha production
2020-09-28T00:43:10Z Aurora_v_kosmose: hah
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2020-09-28T00:45:18Z p_l: end result was that outside of supercomputing, Itanium was left with two groups of customers, the people who somehow ended up running HP-UX (I might have actually encountered a case few years ago), and people running OpenVMS who for some reason couldn't get alphas or needed something specific to I64 systems
2020-09-28T00:45:38Z p_l: and the HP-UX group was dominated by pure Oracle hosting
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2020-09-28T00:47:31Z aeth: I can't believe no one has ported SBCL to Itanium yet
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2020-09-28T00:57:24Z p_l: aeth: Itanium was pretty much dead within few years of actually arriving, and it was half-dead on arrival
2020-09-28T00:58:04Z aeth: Right, my joke is that writing a compiler for Itanium is a job that probably no one here is even capable of doing.
2020-09-28T00:58:30Z p_l: no, that's writing a sufficiently advanced optimizer for Itanium
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2020-09-28T01:07:59Z TheInformaticist: OK, this is weird. ERC is automatically signing me into #lisp when I log in (or freenode is). Any idea why?
2020-09-28T01:08:38Z Aurora_v_kosmose: TheInformaticist: Probably ought to ask in #emacs or #lispcafe
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2020-09-28T01:09:47Z TheInformaticist: #freenode
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2020-09-28T01:15:34Z Nilby: The Alpha was the machine that was the fastest the longest in an office that got every new computer, so it was quite far ahead. It was a decent choice to to put Genera on.
2020-09-28T01:16:31Z p_l: Alpha was very clean and modern architecture
2020-09-28T01:16:36Z p_l: at few points too modern
2020-09-28T01:16:51Z p_l: which resulted in the insanity that was I/O on EV3/4/early 5
2020-09-28T01:17:28Z loke: TheInformaticist: ERC saves the channels you're on using customise.
2020-09-28T01:18:21Z Aurora_v_kosmose: I found which lists it uses and passed along the info on #emacs
2020-09-28T01:18:59Z p_l: Alpha was also one of the few "actually Reduced instruction set RISCs"
2020-09-28T01:21:19Z Nilby: Sometimes I think some exec at intel asked some exec at HP to buy alpha and kill it so they didn't have to worry anymore.
2020-09-28T01:21:38Z p_l: Nilby: killing off Alpha happened under Compaq
2020-09-28T01:21:50Z p_l: Compaq's purchase of DEC was... complicated
2020-09-28T01:22:42Z p_l: best summary I figured ever was that Compaq was very happy being intel's sock puppet and figured being competitors wasn't in their plans and happily folded when intel announced their "RISC killer"
2020-09-28T01:23:35Z p_l: then, after merger with HP, everyone found out that Chipzilla released a lame duck, and HP was forced by the market to restart production of last alpha design
2020-09-28T01:25:24Z p_l: the only remaining non-HP itanium vendor quickly turned out to be SGI, and they ended up both dumping it, moving to Xeons, and being bought by shitty company (Rackable)
2020-09-28T01:26:23Z Nilby: p_l: Interesting. Thank you for the history. I always wondered a bit about it.
2020-09-28T01:27:07Z p_l: Nilby: major groups involved in Alpha development were taken by surprise, among them Microsoft and Compaq (formerly DEC) "NT on Alpha" team
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2020-09-28T01:27:35Z Nilby: It always seemed suspect how such a good chip like Alpha lost to the lame Itanium.
2020-09-28T01:27:58Z p_l: a lot of the rest of the industry got scared of the chipzilla
2020-09-28T01:28:27Z Nilby: They are/were a bit scary
2020-09-28T01:28:54Z p_l: well, last few years showed they are a colossus on rather weak legs
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2020-09-28T01:29:41Z p_l: not only process updates, the real strength behind intel, failed, but also various dirty tricks they picked up to keep the precious single-core speeds up ended up backfiring spectacularly
2020-09-28T01:29:42Z Nilby: indeed
2020-09-28T01:31:11Z p_l: the CPUID/rdrand failure was I think most spectacular
2020-09-28T01:31:22Z Nilby: I guess we can be proud that sbcl went from alpha to risc-v, skipping itanium
2020-09-28T01:31:26Z p_l: not sure if they finally found a way to fix it without horrible slowdown
2020-09-28T01:32:37Z Nilby: yeah, i now regard the intel chips with a bit of suspicion, and wish they would just let us program the microcode
2020-09-28T01:33:15Z p_l: the microcode isn't really that useful given how often it changes
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2020-09-28T01:33:35Z p_l: it's not like access to CMS on Transmeta or its equivalent on nVidia Denver chips
2020-09-28T01:33:35Z Nilby: and I guess then we would see all the bugs/misfeatures
2020-09-28T01:33:53Z p_l: Nilby: you'd need full knowledge of the chip to figure them out
2020-09-28T01:34:03Z p_l: especially since it's not guaranteed that everything is microcode
2020-09-28T01:34:53Z p_l: and the microcode engine itself is pipelined, iirc
2020-09-28T01:35:08Z prumnopytis: Hey, does anyone know about using GPGME's cl [cffi] ? I found I wasn't able to successfully asdf load it under sbcl 2.0.5
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2020-09-28T01:46:27Z prumnopytis: I'm not really sure how to debug asdf's COMPILE-FILE-ERROR. it caches a fasl, but I'm not sure what it wants to tell me.
2020-09-28T01:46:29Z Nilby: p_l: maybe someday they'll do microscopy to vhdl/simulator and we'll see, but in the meantime I'm glad to be able to bring any chip to a crawl with CL.
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2020-09-28T01:47:34Z prumnopytis: Also sorry to come late to a party but Nilby are you talking about running common lisp on some interesting chips? I was ignoring some research I should probably read somewhere and it sounds like you might be talking about that.
2020-09-28T01:49:19Z p_l: well, on the interesting and actually powerful front is recent revival of SBCL on power, including proper 64bitness iirc
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2020-09-28T01:50:06Z Nilby: I have no idea what I'm talking about, but p_l is a smart person. https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp
2020-09-28T01:50:21Z p_l: not so smart
2020-09-28T01:50:56Z p_l: anyway, POWER got a bit of a revival
2020-09-28T01:51:18Z p_l: hopefully the issues with POWER10's openness are solved and RCS will make POWER10 systems too :<
2020-09-28T01:57:19Z aeth: POWER's problem is that it's too expensive. Billion dollar companies will gladly rely on FOSS libraries written by hobbyists, but those hobbyists probably only have access to x86-64 and ARM.
2020-09-28T01:58:33Z p_l: aeth: RCS made computers in the same price range as x86-64 workstations (actual workstations, that is)
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2020-09-28T01:59:19Z p_l: anyway, had some project ideas that would have worked great with RCS hw
2020-09-28T01:59:30Z p_l: but I'm in no position to even pitch them
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2020-09-28T02:11:09Z aeth: p_l: Yeah, actual workstations. Meanwhile, you can get a budget 12-core not-quite-workstation for the price of a 3900X.
2020-09-28T02:12:05Z p_l: aeth: true. That's why the projects I mentioned would have significant benefits related to not having x86 hollywood&netflix-encumbered cpus
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2020-09-28T02:17:04Z prumnopytis: Interesting but not exactly my area of hardware design. So there was a 2020 tech show debut of some scalable parallel processing-y machine (POWER10).
2020-09-28T02:28:37Z prumnopytis: My GPGME quest:
2020-09-28T02:28:51Z prumnopytis: ./gpgme-config --have-lang="cl"
2020-09-28T02:29:03Z prumnopytis: > 0 (indicating succes)
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2020-09-28T02:38:12Z sm2n: prumnopytis, from what I recall, when I looked into it a while back, gpgme's cl bindings are unmaintained for a long time and have bitrotted
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2020-09-28T02:42:17Z prumnopytis: Thanks sm2n
2020-09-28T02:44:10Z prumnopytis: I found that gentoo's package management has stuck to a somewhat ancient version of sbcl, but allegedly also has gpgme [and gpg-error] for cl for that. I wonder if that's why that's like that.
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2020-09-28T02:49:15Z sm2n: you may want to look at this: http://thetarpit.org/2018/cl-gpg
2020-09-28T02:50:54Z prumnopytis: sm2n: I mean that's the fallback I was planning, but everywhere in gpgme's docs it said "no, don't do specifically that use gpgme" so I was wondering if I was just insufficiently powerful with asdf
2020-09-28T02:52:46Z prumnopytis: gpgme as a C library seems to be totally fine, so I was hoping to do something a little more formal than run-programming gpg. But for now I shall just do as you say
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2020-09-28T03:12:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-28T03:20:07Z Nilby: Good morning
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2020-09-28T05:01:36Z borei: good morning/good afternoon
2020-09-28T05:02:53Z Inline: morning
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2020-09-28T07:35:26Z phoe: hellooooo
2020-09-28T07:36:00Z beach: Hey phoe.
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2020-09-28T07:36:22Z phoe: hey hi beach
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2020-09-28T07:47:58Z easye: Mornin' beach, phoe, all.
2020-09-28T07:48:08Z Inline: morning
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2020-09-28T11:12:04Z shangul: What choices do I have for a library similar to Python's requests(HTTP client)? Other than drakma and dexador
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2020-09-28T11:17:11Z schweers: shangul: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl#http-clients
2020-09-28T11:17:36Z schweers: https://www.cliki.net/HTTP%20Client
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2020-09-28T11:18:04Z schweers: I have to admit that I only used drakma a little bit and tried out daxador even more briefly, so I can’t comment on how good these options are
2020-09-28T11:18:20Z shangul: Thanks :)
2020-09-28T11:23:15Z pve: I've used drakma a lot, and have no complaints
2020-09-28T11:25:57Z pve: although I think I did need to wrap it a bit, specifically to bail if a download is too large
2020-09-28T11:31:46Z iissaacc: is there something built in i can use to recursively search a list? I've ended up with a lot of homemade functions that do this
2020-09-28T11:32:43Z phoe: iissaacc: what do you mean by search a list?
2020-09-28T11:33:20Z iissaacc: search for and return a subtree that matches some predicate, like (eq (car subtree) :select)
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2020-09-28T11:33:32Z phoe: you want to search all CARs and CDRs?
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2020-09-28T11:34:37Z phoe: https://lisptips.com/post/43404489000/the-tree-walkers-of-cl
2020-09-28T11:35:29Z iissaacc: ah i shouldve thought of used subst-if
2020-09-28T11:35:32Z iissaacc: thanks phoe
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2020-09-28T12:06:40Z jmercouris: iissaacc: you could just flatten the list and then search it
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2020-09-28T12:07:06Z jmercouris: it really depends on how often you must search the list, and if the position in the recursive structure is relevant to your needs
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2020-09-28T13:39:11Z shangul: How to tell dexador to ignore verifying certificates for HTTPS connections?
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2020-09-28T13:46:46Z shangul: hmm
2020-09-28T13:46:57Z shangul: Then why am I using HTTPS?
2020-09-28T13:47:01Z shangul: :D
2020-09-28T13:47:09Z shangul: Forget my question
2020-09-28T13:49:11Z dlowe: because mitm is still harder than just capturing packets
2020-09-28T13:50:14Z dlowe: if the client allows, you could also pin the cert so that the one site is guaranteed to use that one certificate, which will also thwart mitm attacks
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2020-09-28T13:58:46Z warweasle: Well, I tried ##C++ but most of them never heard of Unification. Any idea if there is a unification library in C/C++?
2020-09-28T13:59:39Z sm2n: clasp+cl-unification
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2020-09-28T14:00:36Z warweasle: Looking it up. Is that in C++ or lisp?
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2020-09-28T14:05:36Z warweasle: OH, clasp is a lisp..
2020-09-28T14:05:44Z warweasle: Yeah, that won't work with unreal engine.
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2020-09-28T14:13:24Z jackdaniel: maybe libecl.so + cl-unification?
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2020-09-28T14:22:52Z gendl: Hi, why would my remote slime connection get "broken by remote peer" instead of going into the debugger, when I hit an error.
2020-09-28T14:23:16Z warweasle: gendl:  Sounds like you crashed your lisp server.
2020-09-28T14:23:35Z gendl: warweasle: nope. Server is still there, I can do M-x slime-connect and connect to it again
2020-09-28T14:24:06Z warweasle: And it's not creating a new instance?
2020-09-28T14:24:11Z gendl: i'm tunneled through ssh, so I use e.g. M-x slime-connect  to localhost port 4249
2020-09-28T14:24:34Z gendl: nope, it's the same instance -- although that's a good question, let me double check that
2020-09-28T14:24:46Z gendl: indeed the server is running in an infinite recovery loop so you may be on to something
2020-09-28T14:25:09Z gendl: should have said "i _assume_ it's the same instance.."
2020-09-28T14:25:50Z warweasle: That's why I ask stupid questions.
2020-09-28T14:26:14Z warweasle: I have to be willing to be stupid before I can learn something new...
2020-09-28T14:26:18Z gendl: Hmm i have a 46GB log file..  i wonder if something could be amiss...
2020-09-28T14:26:45Z warweasle: gendl: Seems you mistyped a 'G' instead of a 'k'.
2020-09-28T14:27:48Z gendl: nope you read that right. Giga.
2020-09-28T14:28:16Z warweasle: My gawd man. It's full of errors!
2020-09-28T14:28:27Z gendl: seems the server process had been constantly crashing on initialization and getting re-spawned. the startup banner and messages  are repeated in the log file a gazillion times.
2020-09-28T14:28:35Z gendl: soon it would have blown out my hard disk capacity.
2020-09-28T14:28:49Z warweasle: Well, that's no fun. Tell it to stop.
2020-09-28T14:29:02Z gendl: it wasn't slime/swank crashing the lisp -- the lisp was repeatedly crashing on its own.
2020-09-28T14:29:14Z gendl: I did. killed the infinite recovery loop.
2020-09-28T14:29:52Z warweasle: Yeah... Whenever something is wrong I always assume I did it. Generally, every library I download is much better than anything I could write myself.
2020-09-28T14:30:00Z gendl: anyway sorry for the noise, problem identified and nothing to do with slime/swank -- my init is broken...
2020-09-28T14:30:12Z gendl: warweasle: sage advice
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2020-09-28T14:35:34Z warweasle: gendl: Happens. We all help make the world a slightly better place.
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2020-09-28T15:12:54Z daphnis: does common lisp have anything corresponding to elisps pcase?
2020-09-28T15:13:47Z beach: What does pcase do?
2020-09-28T15:14:19Z _death: there are libraries for pattern matching
2020-09-28T15:15:32Z daphnis: tests whether a predicate applies to the variable, rather than whether it is equal to a value
2020-09-28T15:17:29Z beach: "variable"?  If it is anything like ordinary CASE, it computes the value of an arbitrary form before checking the cases.
2020-09-28T15:17:47Z _death: cond the ultimate
2020-09-28T15:18:11Z beach: It should be easy to write a macro that does that.
2020-09-28T15:18:40Z daphnis: oh, maybe i'm just looking for cond
2020-09-28T15:19:01Z mseddon: daphnis: It's a good go-to form ;)
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2020-09-28T16:04:37Z remexre: anyone know of bindings to signal (the chat program)? libsignal-protocol-c is gross enough that I'd rather not write the cffi glue myself if I don't have to :)
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2020-09-28T16:07:31Z jackdaniel: easye: you may be interested in the issue resolved here: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/-/merge_requests/194 (lambda list congruency)
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2020-09-28T16:25:14Z plop: #?/@[3]
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2020-09-28T16:25:56Z beach: plop: What is that supposed to be?
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2020-09-28T16:26:10Z plop: a mistake sorry
2020-09-28T16:26:19Z beach: Ah, OK.
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2020-09-28T16:28:14Z Xach: The latest sbcl is more strict about slots with :initform and :type. It has led to a lot of projects that no longer compile.
2020-09-28T16:28:23Z Xach: there is a list here: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-09-28/failure-report.html
2020-09-28T16:28:30Z Xach: (not all failures are related to sbcl's recent change)
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2020-09-28T16:29:48Z Xach: If you see one of your projects there it would be great to update it!
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2020-09-28T16:30:54Z beach: That's quite a list.
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2020-09-28T16:31:58Z Xach: there is some redundancy - if project A fails, and is used by B, C, and D, all four will show the same failure error.
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2020-09-28T16:32:17Z Xach: The end result is the same: none of them work
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2020-09-28T16:33:21Z beach: I see.
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2020-09-28T16:36:13Z Bike: huh, some of these look fairly obvious. like :type (simple-array ...) :initform nil
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2020-09-28T16:38:08Z Xach: i think they are almost all of that form, with a small number of package locks/conflicts.
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2020-09-28T16:42:46Z Xach: I should analyze the errors and determine which fixes give the most bang for the buck
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2020-09-28T16:45:27Z Xach: (automatically, and add that to all future reports)
2020-09-28T16:48:39Z easye: jackdaniel: thanks.
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2020-09-28T17:14:43Z jasom: why should :initform cause an issue with :type?  I'm confused
2020-09-28T17:15:44Z jasom: I would do :initform nil if I wanted to require it be specified when constructed, for example.
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2020-09-28T17:16:07Z Xach: I don't know, but current SBCL will reject such code at compile time.
2020-09-28T17:16:37Z jasom: That probably breaks a lot of the code I've written
2020-09-28T17:16:37Z Xach: I have not closely followed the discussion around the change, only that it seems to be here to stay.
2020-09-28T17:16:40Z mfiano: It doesn't. If you declare a type, it is now a warning if the initial value's type is not of the declared type. You can always use a compelx type specifier to include null
2020-09-28T17:16:47Z jackdaniel: jasom: (foo :initform nil :type integer) is invalid
2020-09-28T17:16:53Z jackdaniel: if you don't supply it
2020-09-28T17:17:04Z jackdaniel: or, to be exact, it is undefined behavior
2020-09-28T17:17:14Z jasom: jackdaniel: fair enough.
2020-09-28T17:17:30Z jackdaniel: what you want is (fo :initarg :foo :type integer)) :default-initargs :foo (alexandria:required-arg 'foo))
2020-09-28T17:17:42Z jackdaniel: or something in this spirit
2020-09-28T17:17:58Z jasom: does it do the same thing with structures?
2020-09-28T17:18:02Z jackdaniel: eventually (foo :initform nil :type (or integer null))
2020-09-28T17:18:13Z mfiano: Structures is an error if the type doesn't match at compile time, at least on SBCL
2020-09-28T17:18:31Z jasom: warning, not error, right mfiano?
2020-09-28T17:18:36Z mfiano: Error
2020-09-28T17:18:43Z jackdaniel: with structures you are even deeper in trouble, because type is used for inlined access and accessor-functions may be used for type inferenc3e
2020-09-28T17:18:48Z jackdaniel: inference*
2020-09-28T17:19:21Z jackdaniel: so you could end up with inlined assembler instruction which adds fixnum to a string ,)
2020-09-28T17:19:29Z jasom: 2.0.0. doesn't even warn
2020-09-28T17:19:53Z jasom: switching to alexandria:required-arg from nil is easy enough; thanks for pointing that out jackdaniel
2020-09-28T17:20:30Z jackdaniel: sure
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2020-09-28T17:24:55Z mfiano: Xach: Yeah, I always wanted that from the failure reports. Would be nice to display it as a tree structure with root nodes sorted by "most bang for the buck". For example glkit is not located in proximity to sdl2kit or sketch, but it is the cause of their failures.
2020-09-28T17:26:32Z mfiano: (guess that would be a forest structure)
2020-09-28T17:27:05Z Xach: hu.dwim.web-server and hu.dwim.rdbms account for nearly 60 of the failures.
2020-09-28T17:27:31Z Xach: claw is second with 23. then cl-csv with 12, cl-messagepack with 10, cl-cffi-gtk with 10, db-cp with 6, and diminishing from there.
2020-09-28T17:28:01Z mfiano: claw can be easily fixed. I already pinged borodust. He has to backport a PR that was recently merged into cl-autowrap, what claw is derived from.
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2020-09-28T17:30:06Z Xach: excellent
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2020-09-28T17:30:51Z Xach: i have emailed attila re: hu.dwim stuff
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2020-09-28T17:31:04Z ebrasca: Why encoding and decoding is hard problem?
2020-09-28T17:31:54Z ebrasca: Like from octets and strings to structures.
2020-09-28T17:32:34Z Xach: ebrasca: is it considered a hard problem?
2020-09-28T17:32:41Z Xach: I hadn't really noticed.
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2020-09-28T17:33:27Z ebrasca: Xach: Do you know some good encoder/decoder for bynary data?
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2020-09-28T17:34:04Z mfiano: com.gigamonkeys.binary-data among many others
2020-09-28T17:34:07Z mfiano: Did you read PCL?
2020-09-28T17:34:36Z ebrasca is searching what is "PCL".
2020-09-28T17:34:54Z jasom: ebrasca: fast-io works for this too, though it's original purpose was for writing to byte-vectors it supports streams as well
2020-09-28T17:35:01Z jasom: !minion tell ebrasca about pcl
2020-09-28T17:35:03Z Xach: ebrasca: there are so many options
2020-09-28T17:35:07Z jasom: minion: tell ebrasca about pcl
2020-09-28T17:35:08Z minion: ebrasca: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-09-28T17:35:27Z mfiano: fast-io is more for reading and writing octets. Binary parsing is at a different level.
2020-09-28T17:35:59Z jasom: mfiano: it is not for reading/writing octets, it can read binary values from 8-64 bits with specified endian
2020-09-28T17:36:14Z jasom: s/not for/not just for/
2020-09-28T17:36:20Z mfiano: This I know. I helped develop it :)
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2020-09-28T17:37:22Z jasom: ebrasca: do you just want serialization/deserialization, or do you want to read externally specified binary formats?
2020-09-28T17:37:23Z mfiano: Point being, it is a tool for binary parsing, and requires no knowledge of compiler theory to function, unlike binary parsing.
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2020-09-28T17:40:24Z ebrasca: I have read big part of PCL.
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2020-09-28T17:40:46Z mfiano: Maybe read the CD database practical chapter again.
2020-09-28T17:41:06Z mfiano: It does go into one method (although very unorthodox) to parse binary data.
2020-09-28T17:41:18Z ebrasca: What about mixed endianes , split fields and other strange things ?
2020-09-28T17:41:29Z mfiano: For that, there is bitio
2020-09-28T17:42:07Z mfiano: https://github.com/psilord/bitio
2020-09-28T17:42:36Z mfiano: A friend wrote that specifically for that use case for me, because there were not any robust solutions available at the time.
2020-09-28T17:42:38Z Xach: It is also not particularly hard to write it yourself, and is quite educational. the tools cl provides are quite adequate building blocks to build up abstractions.
2020-09-28T17:45:04Z mfiano: You can check out flac-metadata, for an example of using fast-io and bitio in a mixed endian format. FLAC is BE for most fields, but does include Ogg Vorbis data which is LE.
2020-09-28T17:45:06Z mfiano: https://github.com/mfiano/flac-metadata
2020-09-28T17:45:12Z ebrasca is not sure if he can create abstractions.
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2020-09-28T17:47:41Z Xach: i really enjoy files that mix endianness in them, it shows that real things are messy sometimes for reasons.
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2020-09-28T17:48:14Z ebrasca: Here link of superblock structure https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/filesystems/ext4/globals.html
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2020-09-28T17:49:10Z ebrasca: There is 1 value in two places s_blocks_count_lo and s_blocks_count_hi
2020-09-28T17:49:52Z ebrasca: But s_blocks_count_hi is only used if 64bit support is set.
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2020-09-28T17:52:28Z mfiano: Mixed [byte] endianess is incredibly easy to handle. Things can get complicated without good abstractions when trying to handle bit endianness
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2020-09-28T17:52:57Z Xach: ebrasca: that is a matter of doing some math along with an IF form
2020-09-28T17:53:05Z ebrasca: s_blocks_count_lo is at offset #x4 and s_blocks_count_hi is at offset #x150 , both have 32 bits size and little endian
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2020-09-28T17:53:47Z ebrasca: I don't like to define structure , reader and writer separately.
2020-09-28T17:53:58Z Xach: ebrasca: so: (if 64-bit-supported-p (+ (ash s-blocks-count-hi 32) s-blocks-count-lo) s-blocks-count-lo)
2020-09-28T17:54:18Z Xach: what you like must take a back seat to what you are capable of
2020-09-28T17:54:57Z ebrasca: I like to have 1 definition and this defition is going to create this 3 parts.
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2020-09-28T17:56:30Z ebrasca: Xach: Maybe my problem is that I don't know what I am capable of.
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2020-09-28T18:06:02Z ebrasca: Xach: I am searching some solution because https://github.com/ebrasca/Mezzano/blob/master/file/ext4.lisp#L220 is very easy to make mistakes and it have some duplication with defstructure and writer.
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2020-09-28T18:32:27Z Xach blogs about the breakage
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2020-09-28T18:44:44Z aeth: The only problematic thing witht he new SBCL change is that SBCL went from completely ignoring :type in DEFCLASS at default optimization levels to not ignoring :type in a niche case that other implementations probably don't check (while still otherwise ignoring :type in DEFCLASS at default optimization levels)
2020-09-28T18:44:52Z aeth: s/witht he/with the/
2020-09-28T18:46:20Z aeth: The only problem with not using (error foo) as a default value to keyword (including the ones generated by :initform) or optional arguments is SLIME's minibuffer behavior, which creates a lot of noise when the default value is (error 'foo "bar baz quux") when the only relevant thing to the user of the API is that the default value is (error)
2020-09-28T18:46:32Z aeth: s/with not using/with using/
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2020-09-28T18:47:58Z mseddon: aeth: I don't understand but as a user of SBCL I want to understand more.
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2020-09-28T18:48:42Z mseddon: (I am a cautious upgrader, for reasons like this)
2020-09-28T18:49:17Z aeth: Unless this is more extensive than the 2.0.8 changes that got rolled back just before release, this is only for DEFCLASS's :iniform and perhaps DEFSTRUCT default slots (I didn't test the latter) and there are even more invalid APIs in the general case of a function with &optional or &keyword arguments with DECLAREd types that contradict the provided default values.
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2020-09-28T18:49:42Z aeth: This would have made more sense to check since SBCL actually checks these.
2020-09-28T18:49:48Z mseddon: ick, and that is a bit of a messy part of the spec too.
2020-09-28T18:49:58Z mseddon: surprised that slipped through though.
2020-09-28T18:50:24Z mseddon: so what happens, you lose type checking? or full segfault doom?
2020-09-28T18:50:45Z aeth: mseddon: In 2.0.8 and before, SBCL ignores :type entirely in DEFCLASS when (safety 3) isn't true, or when speed > safety, or something like that. Essentially, by default, :type is a meaningless thing in SBCL, so probably the majority of Common Lispers have never really faced a :type that actually, really checks.
2020-09-28T18:50:53Z mseddon: :|
2020-09-28T18:51:16Z aeth: In 2.0.9, SBCL does a tiny bit of type checking, to make sure that the :initform is a valid form of the slot's :type in DEFCLASS.
2020-09-28T18:51:19Z mseddon: I mean I happen to declaim that during development, but I would expect this for much lower values of safety.
2020-09-28T18:51:36Z aeth: (SBCL's official stance has always been to use DEFSTRUCT if you care about types because those are optimizable.)
2020-09-28T18:51:52Z aeth: (Or at least the stance of their developers if questioned on IRC.)
2020-09-28T18:51:54Z mseddon: wait, what. I thought defclass was efficient now?
2020-09-28T18:52:59Z mseddon: (spoilers, I still think it is)
2020-09-28T18:53:15Z aeth: mseddon: You wouldn't segfault if the type is invalid (except perhaps at (safety 0) when all bets are off), but you would probably get a runtime error. Except with DEFCLASS, which will only give you that runtime error if (debug 3) and otherwise act like everything's fine if you (setf (foo your-instance) 42) when that slot is, idk, of type conses or something.
2020-09-28T18:53:39Z mseddon: but that runtime error is a false positive
2020-09-28T18:53:41Z aeth: (DEFSTRUCT will give you errors on setting or constructing things with slots of invalid types)
2020-09-28T18:54:07Z mseddon: (and in the case of defclass, terrifyingly sounds like a false positive)
2020-09-28T18:54:51Z mseddon: aeth: if you find the time to put up an example, I would be happy to rock up alongside you and wave my pitchfork.
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2020-09-28T18:56:13Z aeth: mseddon: (setf (foo your-instance) 42) if foo is the accessor for a DEFCLASS slot with :type single-float is an error, it's just that SBCL won't check for it at default optimization levels. It will be an error in e.g. CCL.
2020-09-28T18:56:18Z aeth: Take this class: (defclass foobar () ((%foo :initform 0f0 :initarg :foo :accessor foo :type single-float)))
2020-09-28T18:56:30Z aeth: Now take this setter which is invalid: (setf (make-instance 'foobar) 1)
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2020-09-28T19:00:26Z aeth: That might error, that might not. In CCL, that does error. In SBCL, even though SBCL is otherwise the best implementation at checking types, that doesn't error unless the DEFCLASS is defined in a (debug 3) environment (iirc... it certainly doesn't at default).
2020-09-28T19:02:13Z aeth: Now, replace ":initform 0f0" with ":initform nil". In CCL, that's a runtime type error when calling (make-instance 'foobar) unless a valid value for foo is provided. The appropriate way to do this, though, is to make the initform a call to ERROR.
2020-09-28T19:03:14Z aeth: In many implementations, it's just ignored entirely and the invalid NIL default value is permitted, including SBCL 2.0.8 at default optimization levels.
2020-09-28T19:04:09Z mseddon: okay, I promote that to false negative and cry.
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2020-09-28T19:04:54Z aeth: Now according to NEWS at http://www.sbcl.org/news.html SBCL 2.0.9 does this: "the compiler signals a warning at compile-time when an initform of T, NIL or 0 does not match a STANDARD-CLASS slot's declared type."
2020-09-28T19:04:59Z mseddon: I wonder how that new behaviour slipped through?
2020-09-28T19:05:40Z mseddon: it seems somehow debug <= 2 is "all bets are off" mode, which is way to early
2020-09-28T19:05:42Z aeth: SBCL (an implementation people generally use for the static checking) now does a tiny, tiny bit of static checking in a case where it previously did no checking at all, but only when the :initform is T, NIL, or 0
2020-09-28T19:06:09Z mseddon: aeth: no, this is the thing, I expect SBCL to fall at the first hurdle, and use it because it does.
2020-09-28T19:06:09Z aeth: (SBCL generally does static checking as compile time warnings that compile into runtime errors)
2020-09-28T19:06:30Z Bike: i'm curious why they didn't just do it for all constant initforms.
2020-09-28T19:06:40Z aeth: mseddon: Right, people are complaining because it does a bit of checking, whereas I got my hopes up that this edge case in SBCL type checking was finally fixed, when it's only fixed in a tiny, tiny, tiny special case.
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2020-09-28T19:06:51Z drl: How can I change the SBCL_HOME path?
2020-09-28T19:07:16Z Inline: in a running instance ?
2020-09-28T19:07:26Z Inline: or do you mean from the terminal ?
2020-09-28T19:07:35Z aeth: Bike: I'm also curious as to why this doesn't (at least didn't in the right-before-2.0.8 release I tested before it got rolled back for 2.0.8) do a similar check for DEFUNs with DECLAREd types incompatible with the default optional/keyword argument values. This one might even catch a few bugs in my code.
2020-09-28T19:07:56Z mseddon: aeth: I had an amazing boss once who told me the story of managing a project for a simple vector CAD program for a tutorial for a university lesson. It blew up if they added >5 shapes on the screen, he raised it, they got back something that blew up with >6 shapes on the screen...
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2020-09-28T19:08:04Z Bike: well that sounds like it would be a completely unrelated change
2020-09-28T19:08:17Z mseddon: aeth: this is not okay. :)
2020-09-28T19:08:39Z Bike: it's not as though initforms become keyword argument defaults
2020-09-28T19:08:58Z aeth: Bike: Depending on your perspective. You the user can see intforms as keyword argument defaults of a MAKE-INSTANCE. That's certainly how SLIME exposes them.
2020-09-28T19:09:15Z Bike: okay, but that's not how sbcl does it, and in fact it's kind of impossible with how mop works
2020-09-28T19:09:33Z mseddon: drl: what operating system are you using, MacOS, Linux, or Windows?
2020-09-28T19:09:44Z aeth: Bike: Yes, it would have to be checked in a different place, it is just, from the user's perspective, an extremely similar issue.
2020-09-28T19:09:54Z drl: mseddon, linux.
2020-09-28T19:10:04Z mseddon: drl: do you have a .bashrc or such?
2020-09-28T19:10:05Z Bike: i hope you now understand why they do not do a similar check
2020-09-28T19:10:26Z mseddon: drl: unless you changed your shell, it's usually .bashrc that configures your default shell (bash)
2020-09-28T19:10:29Z drl: mseddon, yes.
2020-09-28T19:10:45Z mseddon: drl: so if you add EXPORT SBCL_HOME=/path/to/your/sbcl/home at the bottom of that .bashrc
2020-09-28T19:11:03Z aeth: Bike: Sorry, I'm communicating it improperly. It's the same class of bug (a default value that cannot possibly be of the valid type, which when properly done should be a call to ERROR instead). It would just have to be checked differently.
2020-09-28T19:11:06Z mseddon: drl: from now on, after you OPEN a terminal or program, it should be set.
2020-09-28T19:11:20Z Bike: you said: "I'm curious why this doesn't do a similar check"
2020-09-28T19:11:26Z Bike: and the answer is that that would be a completely different change.
2020-09-28T19:11:34Z aeth: Bike: Internally, yes.
2020-09-28T19:11:55Z mseddon: drl: for least confusion, check it works in a shell after you add that, and then log out and in again, in case some old programs didn't realise that SBCL_HOME changed.
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2020-09-28T19:13:15Z drl: mseddon, thanks. I remember now setting it there a long time ago.
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2020-09-28T20:05:33Z mseddon: drl: np, make sure your shell environment is configured correctly, lisp requires this.
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2020-09-28T20:09:17Z mseddon: drl: sorry, I meant: "export SBCL_HOME=/your/path"
2020-09-28T20:09:25Z mseddon: drl: lower case export keyword.
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2020-09-28T20:40:15Z drl: How can you tell what version of SBCL that slime is using?
2020-09-28T20:40:41Z Xach: drl: evaluate (lisp-implementation-version)
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2020-09-28T20:43:15Z drl: Xach, thanks.
2020-09-28T20:43:39Z drl: SBCL_HOME environment variable is set, and conflicts with INSTALL_ROOT.
2020-09-28T20:43:39Z drl: Aborting installation. Unset one or reset the other, then try again
2020-09-28T20:43:39Z drl: INSTALL_ROOT=/usr/local
2020-09-28T20:43:39Z drl: SBCL_HOME=asdf/quicklisp
2020-09-28T20:44:09Z drl: What am I doing wrong?
2020-09-28T20:45:43Z Xach: drl: what are you trying to achieve?
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2020-09-28T20:46:13Z aeth: I personally just create a 3-line shell script (including #!/bin/bash in those 3 lines) in ~/bin to export SBCL_HOME and then call the SBCL executable from there.
2020-09-28T20:47:20Z drl: Xach, install the new git version of sbcl.
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2020-09-28T20:48:08Z aeth: drl: what I did to get it to work is this command: INSTALL_ROOT=/home/yourusernamegoeshere/.local sh ./install.sh
2020-09-28T20:48:45Z aeth: drl: and then in the script: export SBCL_HOME=/home/yourusernamegoeshere/.local/lib/sbcl
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2020-09-28T20:49:36Z aeth: Installing to /usr/local is something I don't mess with unless I have no other option, e.g. stumpwm (since I need to launch it like any other WM)
2020-09-28T20:50:09Z aeth: Installing to ~/.local and putting the binary (or a trivial shell script, like I do with SBCL) in ~/bin tends to have fewer issues ime
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2020-09-28T20:51:33Z aeth: The only catch is it might create files you want to exclude from your backups, like anything in ~/.local/lib and ~/.local/bin in this case
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2020-09-28T20:52:40Z drl: aeth, I'm wanting to reinstall stumpwm.
2020-09-28T20:53:11Z aeth: this might work in general to laucnh a custom, home-installed SBCL: export SBCL_HOME=~/.local/lib/sbcl && ~/.local/bin/sbcl
2020-09-28T20:53:37Z aeth: You might need to put the second part on its own line, though, idk edge cases in shell parsing
2020-09-28T20:55:02Z aeth: drl: afaik, stumpwm creates its own standalone executable when you install it, so even if you use the ~/.local/bin/sbcl executable, it will use that newer version to build the /usr/local/bin/stumpwm binary
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2020-09-28T20:59:24Z drl: aeth, If i set SBCL_HOME to anything but asdf/quicklisp I get and error message when I start slime.
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2020-09-28T21:01:50Z drl: Well, maybe not. I'm getting confused now. Nothing seem to be working as before.
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2020-09-28T21:10:18Z Nilby: drl: When I'm having such problems I usually make a new user, or use a "clean" with no files, and if it works there, then carefully and reversibly remove stuff from my environment until it works. Then I can maybe fix the problematic piece of setup.
2020-09-28T21:12:17Z Nilby: drl: If it's really trouble one can use fresh VM or something.
2020-09-28T21:13:18Z drl: aeth, I followed you directions, and it installed. But now I get this error message: core was built for runtime "lat-l-2020-09-28-06-53-18" but this is "lat-l-2020-09-14-16-03-37"
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2020-09-28T21:16:26Z daphnis: is there a cl function that turns a list of character codes into a string?
2020-09-28T21:17:05Z Nilby: (coerce '(#\f #\o #\o) 'string)
2020-09-28T21:17:34Z Xach: daphnis: (map 'string 'code-char list)
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2020-09-28T21:18:15Z daphnis: thanks!
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2020-09-28T21:20:02Z Nilby: use Xach's answer, it's is about 3x faster
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2020-09-28T21:30:28Z aeth: drl: I guess remove and reinstall? My guess is the ~/.local/lib/sbcl and ~/.local/bin/sbcl are using different SBCLs for whatever reason... or, alternatively, the correct SBCL_HOME isn't being used
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2020-09-29T03:40:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-09-29T04:01:58Z Omg_cholesterol: does lisp have pointers
2020-09-29T04:03:22Z beach: Omg_cholesterol: Sort of.
2020-09-29T04:03:38Z Omg_cholesterol: to implement malloc/free
2020-09-29T04:03:39Z beach: Omg_cholesterol: Common Lisp uses what I call "uniform reference semantics".
2020-09-29T04:04:22Z beach: Omg_cholesterol: It means that the semantics of Common Lisp work as if every object you manipulate is in reality a pointer or a reference to some chunk of memory.
2020-09-29T04:04:59Z beach: But your remark about malloc/free makes me think that you are asking a different question, perhaps.
2020-09-29T04:05:23Z Omg_cholesterol: its just dynamic memory allocation functions
2020-09-29T04:06:15Z Omg_cholesterol: which means you'd also need size_t and sizeof() and maybe typeof()
2020-09-29T04:06:34Z beach: Omg_cholesterol: That's not Common Lisp, so it doesn't apply.
2020-09-29T04:07:30Z no-defun-allowed: Why do you need malloc/free?
2020-09-29T04:08:54Z Omg_cholesterol: lets say I want to read a string from a file, you could just allocate a buffer and hope its big enough maybe 64K or you could calculate the size of the string then alloate a buffer of that size
2020-09-29T04:09:21Z Omg_cholesterol: note I dont mean a line necceserily
2020-09-29T04:09:46Z no-defun-allowed: clhs make-string
2020-09-29T04:09:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_stg.htm
2020-09-29T04:09:49Z Omg_cholesterol: so you cant just stop reading where crlf IS
2020-09-29T04:09:50Z no-defun-allowed: clhs read-sequence
2020-09-29T04:09:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_seq.htm
2020-09-29T04:09:51Z beach: Or you can use an adjustable vector.
2020-09-29T04:10:16Z Omg_cholesterol: cool thx
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2020-09-29T04:11:55Z no-defun-allowed: If you want to reuse a buffer like that, you could use make-string to make the buffer, then repeatedly read-sequence into that buffer. When read-sequence returns a position less than the length of the buffer, you've finished consuming the stream.
2020-09-29T04:11:56Z aeth: Omg_cholesterol: What I usually do in this situation is I make an adjustable string like this starting with some power of 2 size: (make-array (expt 2 4) :element-type 'character :adjustable t :fill-pointer 0)
2020-09-29T04:12:38Z aeth: Omg_cholesterol: And then at the very end I (subseq adjustable-string 0 (fill-pointer adjustable-string)) to make a fixed-size (more efficient) string. This last step will copy, though, and isn't strictly necessary.
2020-09-29T04:13:26Z aeth: You add to it with vector-push-extend, which will extend it if necessary (in my example, it will start at 0 and only extend when it reaches 16)
2020-09-29T04:14:33Z aeth: And in theory, a compiler could probably recognize this idiom and not copy with the SUBSEQ if it knows that adjustable-string is only used within a very limited scope, but I doubt that optimization is done. (Instead, it would just change the type prefix of the string, which is a dangerous operation and would have to be done at the compiler level.)
2020-09-29T04:15:16Z aeth: (Technically, a subseq is always supposed to allocate a new sequence, so this optimization would have to be very careful to not semantically change things and appear as if it is following the standard.)
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2020-09-29T04:20:23Z aeth: I think that this style (although it might not be 0 to FILL-POINTER because there might be parts of the string that you want to drop on either side) is the intended style for this in the standard because SUBSEQ (if used on a vector) turns an array into a simple array that otherwise has the same type, i.e. it will no longer be adjustable.
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2020-09-29T05:12:50Z dbotton: is there a facility in CL like emacs list to setup a variable watcher?
2020-09-29T05:13:04Z dbotton: emacs lisp
2020-09-29T05:19:54Z flip214: dbotton: you want some code run when a symbol-value changes?
2020-09-29T05:20:32Z flip214: If so, you'll need to write your own SETF method for that which calls some hook.
2020-09-29T05:20:55Z flip214: for specials, what about a binding in a thread?
2020-09-29T05:21:16Z flip214: and local variables might "vanish" in the sense that they're only a register in code, not a memory location anymore
2020-09-29T05:26:10Z dbotton: the binding to the watcher would go when scope left
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2020-09-29T05:26:52Z dbotton: certainly could roll my own. Was curious if something more standard
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2020-09-29T05:28:43Z flip214: so watching a dynamic variable? Can it leak out to other functions?
2020-09-29T05:29:45Z beach: That's an interesting idea for a feature of an implementation though.  I wonder how efficient it could be, i.e., how to avoid too much slowdown when such a feature is enabled.
2020-09-29T05:30:36Z dbotton: <flip214> it is a risk.
2020-09-29T05:32:01Z dbotton: so you have to make sure your environment is sane first
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2020-09-29T05:33:55Z dbotton: it is used for debugging in emacs lisp
2020-09-29T05:35:30Z beach: dbotton: Emacs Lisp is not terribly fast, so the overhead of a watch point would not be that great.  Your typical Common Lisp implementation is optimized for speed, so variables will be put in registers by the register allocator.  Not only could you not put a watch point on such a thing without recompiling, but it would slow down the operation by an order of magnitude.
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2020-09-29T05:38:21Z dbotton__: I guess it would be possible that an implementation would know that a variable is being "watched" and add the appropriate call
2020-09-29T05:38:50Z beach: Without recompiling?
2020-09-29T05:39:00Z beach: Sounds hard.
2020-09-29T05:39:12Z beach: The code would have to be altered.
2020-09-29T05:39:25Z beach: Like a register move would have to turn into a call.
2020-09-29T05:39:38Z beach: Then all the rest of the code will need to be moved.
2020-09-29T05:39:40Z dbotton__: I guess I forget as I am learning CL that it is in the end a compiled language that just feel interpreted
2020-09-29T05:39:43Z aeth: lexical variables are only going to be guaranteed to be visibile in optimizing implementations like SBCL if (debug 3)
2020-09-29T05:39:44Z flip214: well, using single-stepping and a kind-of emulator is possible, but even slower
2020-09-29T05:40:18Z flip214: might be easier to just simulate running that function in an interpreter ;)
2020-09-29T05:40:22Z beach: dbotton__: There is no such thing as a compiled or interpreted language.  It is all about implementation strategies.
2020-09-29T05:40:32Z dbotton__: of course
2020-09-29T05:40:55Z aeth: dbotton__: Any CL implementation is going to have a compilation phase, but it could be bytecode compilation (e.g. CLISP... and I guess technically ABCL on the JVM)
2020-09-29T05:41:24Z aeth: But even that phase is probably going to hide unnecessary lexical variables unless (debug 3).
2020-09-29T05:41:25Z dbotton__: in ABCL it should be straight forward using the JVM
2020-09-29T05:42:28Z dbotton__: you use the debugging facilities of the JVM
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2020-09-29T09:07:37Z pve: Hello! It seems that standard-class is an instance of standard-class (at least on SBCL). Is this magic, or can I replicate this for my own class? (i.e. have it be an instance of itself)
2020-09-29T09:09:50Z no-defun-allowed: I would guess magic, as one cannot change-class on a class.
2020-09-29T09:09:51Z beach: You can't replicate that.  But it is also not magic.
2020-09-29T09:10:45Z beach: Though, of course, in SICL, I made a point of turning (defclass standard-class (...) ...) into something operational.
2020-09-29T09:11:16Z pve: ok, thank you
2020-09-29T09:12:13Z beach: pve: The only solution to avoiding an infinite metaclass hierarchy is to make the graph circular at some point.
2020-09-29T09:12:27Z beach: pve: This idea is quite well documented in the AMOP book.
2020-09-29T09:12:35Z pve: hmm yes
2020-09-29T09:12:47Z pve: I'm looking at a class diagram, and I *think* this means I'm not going to be able to recreate it exactly
2020-09-29T09:12:53Z beach: s/circular/cyclic/
2020-09-29T09:15:14Z beach: What I find most fascinating about it, is that the AMOP book assumes the situation where you want to add CLOS to an existing pre-ANSI Common Lisp implementation, so the only solution to these problems (bootstrapping and metastability problems) they suggest are based on that situation.
2020-09-29T09:16:07Z beach: the only solutionS
2020-09-29T09:17:00Z beach: And those solutions make the structure of their code more ugly than it has to be.
2020-09-29T09:17:13Z pve: beach: do you mean, as opposed to including it from the beginning?
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2020-09-29T09:17:51Z beach: Yes, sort of.  And to build your Common Lisp implementation from one that already has CLOS and the MOP.
2020-09-29T09:19:04Z beach: But there is this widespread idea that to create some system, you can only use systems that are less complete (less powerful, more primitive, whatever)  than the one you are creating.
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2020-09-29T09:20:21Z beach: I understand the AMOP point of view in that, at the time, there was no implementation available with CLOS already in it.
2020-09-29T09:20:59Z beach: But I don't understand how they could omit a chapter on what to do better if such an implementation existed (which, of course it inevitably will, once you have added CLOS).
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2020-09-29T09:21:49Z dra: Hello!
2020-09-29T09:21:56Z beach: Hello dra.
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2020-09-29T09:28:36Z pve: I wonder what the implications are if I just have my class be an instance of standard-class and be done with it, since I can't achieve the circularity myself.
2020-09-29T09:29:05Z no-defun-allowed: What would you want to achieve with the circularity?
2020-09-29T09:29:06Z beach: By default, classes created using DEFCLASS are instances of STANDARD-CLASS.
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2020-09-29T09:29:31Z pve: I'm finding it pretty hard to think about these things
2020-09-29T09:29:48Z beach: pve: Try (defclass cc () ()) then (find-class 'cc)
2020-09-29T09:30:32Z beach: Actually, just the DEFCLASS will do.  It returns the class that was created.
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2020-09-29T09:31:00Z beach: pve: Welcome to the club.  It takes time to get used to that kind of stuff.
2020-09-29T09:32:03Z pve: no-defun-allowed: I'm not even sure what it will accomplish, I'm just trying to recreate or approximate the Smalltalk-80 class hierarchy, as described in the "Blue book"
2020-09-29T09:32:19Z no-defun-allowed: I see.
2020-09-29T09:32:36Z beach: pve: One thing that helps is to remember the naming convention.  If you say "x is a thing", that means "x is an instance of the class named thing".  So when you say that "cc is a standard class", it means that it is an instance of the class STANDARD-CLASS.
2020-09-29T09:32:59Z pve: and it says "the metaclass of Metaclass must be an instance of Metaclass"
2020-09-29T09:33:12Z pve: beach: right
2020-09-29T09:33:52Z beach: pve: The solution to that problem is to avoid mapping Smalltalk classes to Common Lisp classes.  Just make them non-class Common Lisp objects.  Then you can have a slot that refers to the object itself.
2020-09-29T09:33:54Z no-defun-allowed: In Netfarm, there is also a circular schema hierarchy; a schema is an instance of the schema named "the schema schema". (You could probably say that quickly out loud, but it's no fun to think about). I also wanted to recreate that in Lisp, but then the schema class would be an instance of itself.
2020-09-29T09:35:30Z beach: pve: There is nothing particularly special about class metaobjects.  They are just objects themselves, and they act as templates in that you can call a function to create an instance of the model, i.e. MAKE-INSTANCE.
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2020-09-29T09:36:39Z beach: instance of the TEMPLATE, I mean.
2020-09-29T09:37:11Z no-defun-allowed: So instead, there is a NETFARM-CLASS metaclass, and a SCHEMA class that is an instance of that. One can fabricate a NETFARM-CLASS from a schema using SCHEMA->CLASS, which is reasonable for my uses.
2020-09-29T09:38:22Z beach: pve: So if you are implementing a different programming language, just represents classes in that language by non-class objects in Common Lisp, and create yourself the equivalent of MAKE-INSTANCE in your language that creates an "instance" of that non-class object.
2020-09-29T09:39:24Z no-defun-allowed: What I am considering for a Smalltalk-80 implementation is to represent the instances with object slots with one structure class, the instances with byte slots with another, and the instances with 16-bit word slots with another.
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2020-09-29T09:41:07Z pve: beach: I see your point, but I feel like I'd lose a lot of good stuff by not mapping to CL classes. If possible, I'd like to have seamless integration between CL and my language.
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2020-09-29T09:42:41Z Gnuxie[m]: There's no reason why it won't be seamless
2020-09-29T09:42:46Z pve: although I haven't yet considered what you suggested fully
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2020-09-29T10:00:48Z schweers: This may seem like a pretty silly question, but here goes anyway: do you often use AMOP during day-to-day programming?  I’ve got the AMOP book at home and tried to understand it, but have had trouble so far.  So currently I’m living without it.  Am I missing alot?
2020-09-29T10:04:35Z beach: schweers: If you do "application programming" you only occasionally need some custom metaclass or some custom method combination.  But to answer your question, I use the MOP in my day-to-day programming, which is about implementing a fully conforming Common Lisp implementation.
2020-09-29T10:04:36Z _death: if you mean writing code that uses the MOP, it depends on what kind of programs you write and what style you choose to use for them.. personally I've not written MOP-related code for a long time now
2020-09-29T10:05:52Z schweers: Yes, I meant application programming.  So it seems my plan to do properly learn about it some time is warrented, but not urgent.
2020-09-29T10:05:57Z schweers: Thanks for the answers!
2020-09-29T10:06:14Z beach: pve: Right, if you want some kind of integration with Common Lisp, like if you want to write methods on your Smalltalk classes in Common Lisp, and use DEFMETHOD to do that, then my suggestion may not work, but that is much harder problem for other reasons as well.
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2020-09-29T10:21:40Z pve: beach: yep, that was pretty much what I was thinking of.. it's not going to be a stand-alone language, but rather something to play with when I feel like going on a language-safari within the confines of my comfy REPL :)
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2020-09-29T12:18:19Z Xach: Ok, I annotated http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-09-29/failure-report.html a bit. if system A fails due to the failure of system B, there's a link to system B from A.
2020-09-29T12:18:51Z Xach: I'm going to do a little bit more and sort the results by failure impact
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2020-09-29T12:26:01Z Xach: hmm, that link thing needs some work. it's going to the wrong place sometimes.
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2020-09-29T12:28:31Z phoe: Xach: a minor usability feature would be to reverse the order of systems there, so they're alphabetical
2020-09-29T12:28:53Z Xach: phoe: rather than by impact?
2020-09-29T12:29:22Z phoe: Xach: no no, right now their names are in kinda-reverse alphabetic notation
2020-09-29T12:29:27Z phoe: s/notation/order/
2020-09-29T12:30:14Z phoe: e.g. bodge-glfw comes after bodge-nuklear
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2020-09-29T12:33:01Z Xach: aye
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2020-09-29T12:53:08Z mfiano: I still think it'd be more readable if it was presented hierarchically, so you could see all affected systems under a cause.
2020-09-29T12:53:39Z Xach: mfiano: i did a little graphviz visualization of that
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2020-09-29T12:53:57Z Xach: mfiano: it turns out not to be as hierarchical as i thought it might be. there's never multiple levels.
2020-09-29T12:54:19Z Xach: what i thought would be second-level leaves are actually attached to the root because of how errors are reported.
2020-09-29T12:54:34Z mfiano: Sure I wouldn't expect there to be. I just don't want to scan linearly for all "caused by rpcq" when they could all be grouped under "rpcq"
2020-09-29T12:54:42Z mfiano: Maybe I am weird, though :)
2020-09-29T12:55:36Z Xach: if things are sorted by impact, then alphabetically, things are essentially grouped around common causes also
2020-09-29T12:56:28Z Xach adds BREAKS and BROKEN-BY slots to the failing-system class
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2020-09-29T13:09:21Z mfiano: I recall there being html to create collpasible/expandable tree nodes. that would be a good way to present the information in a concise way to really see the main offenders, with the option to expand for more details
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2020-09-29T13:14:04Z Xach: hmm
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2020-09-29T13:24:16Z borodust: Xach: :claw is heavily outdated in quicklisp repo - i bumped quicklisp version of it, but it requires those systems: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1909
2020-09-29T13:25:50Z Xach: borodust: what branch of claw is updated to work with sbcl 2.0.9?
2020-09-29T13:25:56Z borodust: stable
2020-09-29T13:26:02Z Xach: ok
2020-09-29T13:26:50Z Xach: borodust: it does not look like it to me from looking at github. am i looking in the wrong place?
2020-09-29T13:27:08Z Xach: specifically https://github.com/borodust/claw/blob/stable/src/sffi.lisp#L35
2020-09-29T13:27:13Z borodust: hmmm
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2020-09-29T13:31:35Z borodust: oh, i see
2020-09-29T13:31:43Z Xach: what is it?
2020-09-29T13:34:38Z Xach <-- suspense 
2020-09-29T13:37:39Z borodust: moment
2020-09-29T13:37:47Z borodust: the problem is there's branch stable and tag stable
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2020-09-29T13:42:27Z phoe: ouch
2020-09-29T13:42:54Z borodust: Xach: should be fine now
2020-09-29T13:43:50Z Xach: ah!
2020-09-29T13:45:19Z Xach: borodust: fine how?
2020-09-29T13:45:30Z Xach: oh, oops - i am looking at claw-utils
2020-09-29T13:45:34Z Xach: that has a tag stable also
2020-09-29T13:45:41Z Xach: but no branch
2020-09-29T13:45:44Z borodust: yeh, it should be tag rather than branch
2020-09-29T13:45:56Z Xach: or rather...
2020-09-29T13:46:00Z Xach tries to puzzle it out in his head
2020-09-29T13:46:10Z borodust: depending on how you checkout, should make no difference
2020-09-29T13:46:27Z Xach: borodust: is it a moving tag??
2020-09-29T13:46:30Z borodust: yes
2020-09-29T13:46:41Z _death: that's what branches are for..
2020-09-29T13:47:14Z Xach: borodust: the "stable" tag seems to be from april - is that the one to use?
2020-09-29T13:47:15Z borodust: :) i don't remember why i decided to use tags that way
2020-09-29T13:47:30Z borodust: Xach: yes
2020-09-29T13:48:08Z borodust: Xach: :claw doesn't use that sffi cruft anymore
2020-09-29T13:48:12Z borodust: since ages
2020-09-29T13:48:57Z borodust: i kinda don't touch stuff that works in quicklisp and mainly distribute via custom dist
2020-09-29T13:49:15Z borodust: system in quicklisp was 3yo or smth
2020-09-29T13:51:50Z Xach: borodust: are all the projects in issue #1909 tags and not branches?
2020-09-29T13:51:56Z borodust: yes
2020-09-29T13:51:57Z Xach: cffi-c-ref, claw-support, c2ffi-blob?
2020-09-29T13:51:58Z Xach: ok
2020-09-29T13:54:27Z borodust: _death: i think the reasoing was that i really need a point in history to pin rather than something inherently moving
2020-09-29T13:54:41Z borodust: _death: basically, what i did with branches was just resetting them to something in master
2020-09-29T13:54:47Z borodust: kinda taggy feeling
2020-09-29T13:57:58Z Xach: great, i have made progress, thanks borodust
2020-09-29T13:58:09Z Xach: i hope the tag motion does not foul me up in the future - we'll see in 2023!
2020-09-29T13:58:57Z _death: borodust: sure, if it works for you.. I always treated tags as user-friendly names for commits, but maybe it's a narrow view
2020-09-29T13:59:50Z borodust: Xach: thanks!
2020-09-29T14:00:32Z borodust: _death: i don't disagree
2020-09-29T14:01:15Z borodust: for some reason git gave me that power, and, as a human, i abused it
2020-09-29T14:01:17Z _death: borodust: the git-tag manpage repeatedly calls it "insane" :)
2020-09-29T14:01:39Z borodust: pretty much sums up whatever i'm doing
2020-09-29T14:02:28Z d4ryus: You will run into all kinds of issues when you move tags, i guess since they are not supposed to. For example, fetching fails when tags get moved.
2020-09-29T14:03:07Z borodust: d4ryus: hm? never bumped into such behavior
2020-09-29T14:03:45Z borodust: cuz no one contributes to my software, ofc
2020-09-29T14:04:06Z borodust: because only place i'm using tags in that way is stable/testing things in my lisp software
2020-09-29T14:05:20Z ebrasca: Hi
2020-09-29T14:05:30Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
2020-09-29T14:06:40Z d4ryus: git wont "clobber" existing tags if fetch.pruneTags (or similar) is not set and -f (force) is not specified. You get a "... would clobber existing tags" error message.
2020-09-29T14:07:21Z borodust: hmm
2020-09-29T14:10:03Z borodust: one day i'll check if that's the case ;p
2020-09-29T14:10:15Z d4ryus: borodust: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58031165/how-to-get-rid-of-would-clobber-existing-tag the second answer, not sure how to link it. But, as the answer states, there is nothing wrong with having a moving tag, but you might run into problems.
2020-09-29T14:10:21Z borodust: thanks for a feedback though, really
2020-09-29T14:10:52Z borodust: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9662249/how-to-overwrite-local-tags-with-git-fetch
2020-09-29T14:11:07Z borodust: this one here says you don't need to do anything and will overwrite them alright
2020-09-29T14:11:29Z borodust: internets - choose answer you prefer most
2020-09-29T14:12:23Z borodust: although someone else said it's a version dependent thing, well, whatever
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2020-09-29T14:14:24Z borodust: using moving tags is clearly insane, don't be me
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2020-09-29T14:22:11Z borodust sometimes accesses internal symbols without asking API authors to expose them
2020-09-29T14:22:47Z borodust: i feed on power ;p
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2020-09-29T17:09:29Z rpg: sly question -- When I use slime, I get the ability to use the key prefix "C-c l" to switch back and forth between the various slime windows (repl, debugger, inspector, lisp code, etc.). I don't seem to have that in sly. Anyone know if there's a contrib for this? Or what is the contrib in SLIME that needs translating?
2020-09-29T17:20:29Z mfiano: First thing I would do is check to see what that is bound to under your SLIME config, because that keybinding is not mentioned in the SLIME manual.
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2020-09-29T17:24:09Z mfiano: It also seems not to be found anywhere in the source tree, contrib or not
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2020-09-29T17:47:28Z rpg: mfiano: Looks like it's `slime-selector` and it's in `slime.el`
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2020-09-29T17:50:25Z mfiano: I do not see a keymap for that function in slime.el
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2020-09-29T17:51:10Z rpg: mfiano: Where do you get slime?
2020-09-29T17:51:44Z mfiano: git commit SHA fb12bac6
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2020-09-29T17:52:59Z mfiano: (global-set-key "\C-c s" 'slime-selector)
2020-09-29T17:53:15Z mfiano: That is different than the binding you mentioned. No wonder
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2020-09-29T17:55:43Z rpg: Yes, no wonder. Took me quite a while to find that...  And it turns out there's a `sly-selector`, too.
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2020-09-29T18:57:20Z Xach: borodust: should i update all bodge-* to use tags?
2020-09-29T18:58:02Z Xach: i'm getting "refname 'stable' is ambiguous" for e.g. bodge-glfw
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2020-09-29T19:01:27Z Xach clears cache and gets it
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2020-09-29T19:07:23Z borodust: Xach: yeh, ill cleanup bodge* libs from stqble branches in a few mins
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2020-09-29T19:19:02Z contrapunctus: beach: I'd really like to work on a Lisp OMR (optical music recognition) software someday, as you mention in Suggested Projects. IIRC there are attempts at doing this using neural networks - do you see this approach (combined with interactive proofreading/correction) as sufficient, or is there a better way? 🤔
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2020-09-29T19:43:30Z Xach: borodust: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-09-29/failure-report/bodge-sndfile.html#bodge-sndfile
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2020-09-29T19:47:39Z borodust: Xach: should be fixed, i've run through every repo i have and switched to stable tag
2020-09-29T19:47:45Z Xach: Maybe bodge in quicklisp is just a nuisance for all and people should use the custom dist?
2020-09-29T19:47:46Z borodust: which should point to lastest commit
2020-09-29T19:47:52Z Xach: I am not opposed to changing it either way
2020-09-29T19:47:57Z Xach: To keep, or to drop
2020-09-29T19:48:32Z Xach: Ah, ok, i failed to retry bodge-sndfile
2020-09-29T19:48:32Z borodust: lets keep em
2020-09-29T19:48:36Z Xach: Sorry for the false alarm
2020-09-29T19:49:02Z borodust: i thought about dropping, but there's a system in quicklisp that already depend on some (bodge-glfw in particular)
2020-09-29T19:49:47Z borodust: so i guess, now i have to maintain them
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2020-09-29T19:53:13Z borodust: i wish i knew better at the time and just put 'em all into custom dist (bodge* stuff moves really fast)
2020-09-29T19:53:32Z borodust: hindsight is 20/20
2020-09-29T19:53:41Z Xach grabs bodge-libc-essentials
2020-09-29T19:54:44Z borodust scratches his head
2020-09-29T19:55:14Z borodust: thanks much
2020-09-29T19:55:26Z borodust: i'll be a better person next time
2020-09-29T19:57:25Z Xach: so should we all
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2020-09-29T22:51:05Z Xach: borodust: is bodge-nuklear still viable? it seems to depend-on clutz?
2020-09-29T22:51:17Z Xach: (do i need to refresh cache again or something?)
2020-09-29T22:53:01Z Xach: ah, i think this is failure on my end. checking harder.
2020-09-29T22:53:12Z Xach: ok, yes, it works as expected now.
2020-09-29T22:53:17Z Xach: sorry again for the false alarm
2020-09-29T22:55:51Z Nilby: Xach: wow, do you send reports for all the stuff on report.quicklisp.org? it seems like 100s of ... X conflicts with its asserted type X ... in 2.0.9
2020-09-29T22:56:23Z Xach: Nilby: i do. in many cases a single fix can take care of 25 failures, so it's not as bad as it looks.
2020-09-29T22:57:09Z Nilby: Xach: still pretty heroic effort
2020-09-29T22:57:59Z Nilby: If only I would send to many bug reports to myself, maybe I'd fix something.
2020-09-29T22:59:33Z Xach: I have been updating the reports a bit lately to better direct my bug reports. Now I can more easily tell what fixes offer the most payoff.
2020-09-29T23:00:18Z Nilby: nice, I like how they have all the links in them
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2020-09-29T23:27:05Z no-defun-allowed: Is there a library to generate inheritance graphs for classes? It wouldn't be hard to make, but I'd rather not make another.
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2020-09-29T23:29:05Z rpg: no-defun-allowed: I *think* that might be available in cl-dot, but I can't swear to it.
2020-09-29T23:29:32Z no-defun-allowed: I'll go check then.
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2020-09-29T23:30:20Z rpg: In sly, how do you do a normal search backwards in the repl buffer? The default keys are grabbed for history search, but sometimes I want to look up in the *buffer* instead of the history.
2020-09-29T23:32:11Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, there's an example examples/class-example.lisp that does exactly that. Thanks!
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2020-09-29T23:38:05Z earl-ducaine: Hello Lispizens! What is the best (most portable) way to refer to tab characters in CL?
2020-09-29T23:38:08Z earl-ducaine: Of course most modern versions support #\tab but that's technically non-standard.
2020-09-29T23:38:45Z earl-ducaine: I've looked for a trivial compatability library, but there doesn't seem to be one that addresses special characters.
2020-09-29T23:39:11Z earl-ducaine: e.g. the Babel unicode library
2020-09-29T23:39:47Z no-defun-allowed: Assuming your implementation uses a superset of ASCII, #.(code-char 9) is one way of referring to #\Tab "portably".
2020-09-29T23:41:02Z rpg: no-defun-allowed: Glad that worked!
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2020-09-30T01:59:34Z earl-ducaine: no-defun-allow: I was hoping to avoid hard-coding ASCII codes, which on reflection is silly. The (horizontal) tab character along with vertical tab, form feed, etc. is only meaningful within the context of ASCII
2020-09-30T02:02:18Z Nilby: In case of reality shifts one could say, #9=#.(loop for i from 0 below char-code-limit when (string-equal "TAB" (char-name (code-char i))) return (code-char i))
2020-09-30T02:02:47Z Nilby: But I can't find any CL that doesn't understand #\tab.
2020-09-30T02:03:31Z aeth: Nilby: tab must be present. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/13_ag.htm
2020-09-30T02:03:33Z Nilby: But #\bell vs #\bel on the other hand.
2020-09-30T02:14:46Z Nilby: The sad thing is I have trouble fitting my characters in 64 bits, so I imagine the future characters will be better as a digest hash or something.
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2020-09-30T02:16:27Z no-defun-allowed: You could do (name-char "Tab") to get the character named Tab.
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2020-09-30T02:17:39Z no-defun-allowed: (name-char "Dog") in SBCL is funnier than it should be. Sure, lispms have Super, Hyper, Top, Greek, etc keys, but what about the Dog character?
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2020-09-30T02:22:12Z earl-ducaine: aeth: Only #\Newline and #\Space must be present. The others are 'semi-standard';
2020-09-30T02:23:04Z aeth: earl-ducaine: does any implementation not provide any of those?
2020-09-30T02:23:45Z aeth: It seems to me that they might not be mandated because they might not exist in some encodings
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2020-09-30T02:24:09Z aeth: but those encodings are dead now
2020-09-30T02:24:24Z aeth: but you're right, they're not "must"
2020-09-30T02:25:32Z Nilby: #\dog is currently more tragic than funny for me, since it only come up properly in 2-3 out of like 15 different things, and when it does come up, it looks different an sometimes pathetic.
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2020-09-30T02:36:42Z earl-ducaine: aeth: The motivation for the question was writing a lisp function compatible with the C function isspace. That requires \t \v \f and \r.  So, \v (vertical tab) is the one that's problematic.
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2020-09-30T02:39:36Z moon-child: why do you want to do that?
2020-09-30T02:39:40Z earl-ducaine: But in my case, there's no good reason I can think of for not using (code-char 11) as suggested above.
2020-09-30T02:42:26Z aeth: I personally rely on code-char being an ASCII superset (probably Unicode) even though it's not guaranteed. I'm not sure there's any real alternative.
2020-09-30T02:45:57Z earl-ducaine: moon-child: isspace is widely used in C parsing to determine whitespace characters, especially parsers. In my specific case writing  writing a cl scanner that accepts the wayland protocol in exactly the same way as the model implementation.
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2020-09-30T02:52:46Z borei: good morning/good afternoon !
2020-09-30T02:55:34Z aeth: oh, hmm, the commercial implementations might still have weird encodings
2020-09-30T02:59:46Z Nilby: Also some of Lisp Machines have semi-incompatible encodings.
2020-09-30T03:01:34Z iissaacc: sup lithpers
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2020-09-30T03:05:15Z earl-ducaine: aeth: cl-babel provides a compatability layer with respect to encoding. I was checking it out when I was investigating #\Tab. There are indeed comments with regard to implementation idiosyncrasies.
2020-09-30T03:05:33Z no-defun-allowed uploaded an image: notfunny-abelson.png (125KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/QgqTdYHvSVqRQjrfslNsAakd/notfunny-abelson.png >
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2020-09-30T03:13:48Z earl-ducaine: both allegro and lispworks
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2020-09-30T03:57:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-09-30T04:00:47Z beach: contrapunctus: I think there is a better way to do optical music recognition.  Trying to do it automatically is going to introduce too many errors.  I would prefer an interactive approach where the operator is in charge, but the software helps out.  We can discuss this later if you like.
2020-09-30T04:04:05Z contrapunctus: beach: sure 🙂
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2020-09-30T06:29:45Z borodust: Xach: no probs, thanks!
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2020-09-30T06:32:08Z borodust: Xach: bodge-nanovg should work now too
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2020-09-30T06:47:08Z flip214: I started OMR (image => midi) in 1998 or so... but then funding was gone
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2020-09-30T06:50:22Z contrapunctus: flip214: nice 😳 Would you like to give it another go? I might be more motivated if I had someone working on it with me 😀
2020-09-30T06:51:27Z flip214: contrapunctus: some interest is still there, of course... time is limited, but we can discuss ideas via email (make a mailing list?)
2020-09-30T06:51:39Z contrapunctus: Although a mostly-interactive solution might actually be less work than a batch scanning + interactive proofreading solution.
2020-09-30T06:51:52Z remexre: hm, is https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/ down?
2020-09-30T06:52:19Z flip214: well, I'd just write midi files and have the operator use whatever midi editor is prefered for fixing things up.
2020-09-30T06:52:33Z flip214: (what fixups? recognition will be PERFECT)
2020-09-30T06:52:35Z remexre: er, common-lisp.net as a whole, rather
2020-09-30T06:53:29Z contrapunctus: flip214: Ah, I'd like to export Music(S?)XML, MEI, and maybe Lilypond. 🤔
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2020-09-30T07:01:54Z flip214: remexre: ack, ssh is dead too
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2020-09-30T07:08:26Z remexre: oof, and archive.org is giving me "The search engine encountered the following error: invalid or no response from Elasticsearch"
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2020-09-30T07:17:15Z names: ozzloy shenghi bmansurov gabot swflint xi null_ptr azrazalea fiddlerwoaroof lieven esotericalgo jackhill lad Ekho himmAllRight17 mr_yogurt tomaw brandonz zymurgy devrtz snits markasoftware eagleflo sukaeto dlowe Firedancer_ Patternmaster cmatei sbryant add^_ samebchase cyberlard kbtr Nikotiini Odin- ult Ziemas ferada bonz060 White_Flame stux|RC payphone penguwin abbe Kabriel TMA aap glamas spal elioat zigpaw1 uplime HiRE_ alandipert ecraven yang srji jfb4
2020-09-30T07:17:15Z names: larme wigust mbrumlow Papa simplegauss grobe0ba hjudt mood r3x5 samebchase- hdasch gpiero andinus stux|RC-only idxu shrysr lowryder spacebat2 diamondbond trittweiler jxy kini madand mseddon ck_ jasom brass ravndal jdz cgay vert2 Tordek nitrix emacsomancer Plazma natj212_ Robdgreat phadthai grumble Colleen MetaYan cods theBlackDragon trn winny |3b| Christ0pher mgsk_ z0d mister_m lavaflow APic otwieracz SumoSud0 Grauwolf gingerale jonathan| shinohai fade
2020-09-30T07:17:15Z names: bjorkintosh cyberbanjo hvxgr jurov_ ft cyraxjoe Demosthenex loke xlei HDurer rixard flip214 nmg_ joast malm cairn Dmytro[m] Gnuxie[m] fwoaroof[m] infra_red[m] kinope materialfuture[m gum Yardanico drot vhost- nckx Krystof tychoish Khisanth _Ark_ tessier matijja drewc creat Gerula terrorjack sm2n epony iamFIREc1 d4ryus @fe[nl]ix ramus cpape` mtd thijso h11 Kaisyu7 copec Patzy_ kingcons sebboh mikecheck moon-child knobo hiredman saturn2 quazimodo ramin midre
2020-09-30T07:17:15Z names: no-defun-allowed femi dim jackdaniel Cthulhux mgsk l1x ChoHag RagnarDanneskjol splittist Inoperable datajerk dale eta niceplaces interruptinuse bhartrihari leo_song mankaev micro easye kagevf DGASAU gabiruh dvdmuckle terpri davsebamse eschatologist goldrin1227[m] bacterio cg505_ beaky antoszka heredoc_ seisatsu shoshin X-Scale oldtopman dmiles arbv kapil_ zagura lemoinem dxtr vegansbane cpt_nemo anddam aindilis karstensrage IPmonger ibinderwolf beach mfiano
2020-09-30T07:17:15Z names: liberliver zaquest justache FennecCode aeth froggey madage remexre ech johnjay AdmiralBumbleBee borodust nullheroes troydm slyrus Lord_Nightmare Mandus lonjil jbgg CrazyEddy jprajzne gigetoo SAL9000 nullman frgo lottaquestions luckless_ dddddd flazh davepdotorg jw4 jello_pudding ggoes xantoz yitzi karlosz elflng Blukunfando stylewarning billstclair ffwacom banjiewen rvirding bytesighs jerme_ CEnnis91 buoy49 gjnoonan kilimanjaro whiteline notzmv gxt dbotton
2020-09-30T07:17:15Z names: sgithens jibanes dnm jsatk rme selwyn conjunctive travv0 gaze__ mpontillo jlpeters jmercouris_ Balooga physpi alanz drmeister grfn vutral gendl tankrim Jesin earl-ducaine iissaacc housel Bourne Xach sjl _jrjsmrtn xzax_[m] gaqwas[m] hansbauer[m] sammich even4void[m] tekipeps[m] kelamir[m] MrtnDk[m] dilated_dinosaur arpunk secretmyth2 greaser|q logo4poop C-16 boeg Posterdati yottabyte tfb XachX rotty mjl jonatack chewbranca lukego pent avicenna gko` ioa katco
2020-09-30T07:17:15Z names: xzax_[m]1 voidlily vaporatorius nopf
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2020-09-30T07:22:16Z names: vegansbane dxtr lemoinem zagura kapil_ arbv dmiles oldtopman X-Scale shoshin seisatsu heredoc_ antoszka beaky cg505_ bacterio goldrin1227[m] eschatologist davsebamse terpri dvdmuckle gabiruh DGASAU kagevf easye micro mankaev leo_song bhartrihari interruptinuse niceplaces eta dale datajerk Inoperable splittist RagnarDanneskjol ChoHag l1x mgsk Cthulhux jackdaniel dim femi no-defun-allowed midre ramin quazimodo saturn2 hiredman knobo moon-child mikecheck
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2020-09-30T07:22:16Z names: lavaflow mister_m z0d mgsk_ Christ0pher |3b| winny trn theBlackDragon cods MetaYan Colleen grumble phadthai Robdgreat natj212_ Plazma emacsomancer nitrix Tordek vert2 cgay jdz ravndal brass jasom ck_ mseddon madand kini jxy trittweiler diamondbond spacebat2 lowryder shrysr idxu stux|RC-only andinus gpiero hdasch samebchase- r3x5 mood hjudt grobe0ba simplegauss Papa mbrumlow wigust larme jfb4 srji yang ecraven alandipert HiRE_ uplime zigpaw1 elioat spal
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2020-09-30T07:49:05Z flip214: remexre: up again
2020-09-30T07:53:18Z remexre: sweet, thx
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2020-09-30T09:40:01Z names: rumpelszn Grue`` justinmcp mgr_ xristos phoe kim\ felideon _death mrSpec [df] Ankhers Blkt eMBee catern jgkamat fengshaun nightfly_ ozzloy shenghi bmansurov gabot swflint xi null_ptr azrazalea fiddlerwoaroof lieven esotericalgo jackhill lad Ekho himmAllRight17 mr_yogurt tomaw brandonz zymurgy devrtz snits markasoftware eagleflo sukaeto dlowe Firedancer_ Patternmaster cmatei sbryant add^_ samebchase cyberlard kbtr Nikotiini Odin- ult Ziemas ferada bonz060
2020-09-30T09:40:01Z names: White_Flame stux|RC payphone penguwin abbe Kabriel TMA aap glamas spal elioat zigpaw1 uplime HiRE_ alandipert ecraven yang srji jfb4 larme wigust mbrumlow Papa simplegauss grobe0ba hjudt mood r3x5 samebchase- hdasch gpiero andinus stux|RC-only idxu shrysr lowryder spacebat2 trittweiler jxy kini madand mseddon ck_ jasom brass ravndal jdz cgay vert2 Tordek nitrix emacsomancer Plazma natj212_ Robdgreat phadthai grumble Colleen MetaYan cods theBlackDragon trn
2020-09-30T09:40:01Z names: winny |3b| Christ0pher mgsk_ z0d mister_m lavaflow APic otwieracz SumoSud0 Grauwolf gingerale jonathan| shinohai fade bjorkintosh cyberbanjo hvxgr jurov_ ft cyraxjoe Demosthenex loke xlei HDurer rixard flip214 nmg_ joast malm cairn Dmytro[m] Gnuxie[m] fwoaroof[m] infra_red[m] kinope materialfuture[m gum Yardanico drot vhost- nckx Krystof tychoish Khisanth _Ark_ tessier matijja drewc creat Gerula terrorjack sm2n epony iamFIREc1 d4ryus @fe[nl]ix ramus cpape`
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2020-09-30T09:40:01Z names: dmiles arbv kapil_ zagura lemoinem dxtr vegansbane cpt_nemo anddam aindilis karstensrage IPmonger ibinderwolf beach mfiano liberliver justache FennecCode aeth froggey madage remexre ech johnjay AdmiralBumbleBee borodust nullheroes troydm slyrus Lord_Nightmare Mandus lonjil jbgg CrazyEddy jprajzne gigetoo SAL9000 nullman lottaquestions luckless_ dddddd flazh jw4 jello_pudding ggoes xantoz yitzi elflng Blukunfando stylewarning billstclair ffwacom banjiewen
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2020-09-30T09:40:01Z names: yottabyte tfb XachX rotty mjl jonatack chewbranca lukego pent avicenna gko` ioa katco xzax_[m]1 voidlily vaporatorius nopf
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2020-09-30T11:40:01Z Xach: borodust: I'm having trouble using the stable tag of bodge-blobs-support. I'm getting "fatal: not a valid object name"
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2020-09-30T11:59:03Z phoe: Xach: I suggest that you remove links to Quickdocs from http://blog.quicklisp.org/2020/09/september-2020-quicklisp-dist-update.html
2020-09-30T11:59:16Z Xach: phoe: why?
2020-09-30T11:59:17Z phoe: Quickdocs should burn altogether because it hasn't been updated since 2019.
2020-09-30T11:59:25Z phoe: http://quickdocs.org/petalisp/
2020-09-30T11:59:28Z Xach: Oh no. I like(d) quickdocs!
2020-09-30T11:59:33Z mfiano: Yes, please don't link to Quickdocs
2020-09-30T11:59:34Z phoe: it mentions 2019-12-27
2020-09-30T11:59:51Z phoe: so did I
2020-09-30T11:59:52Z Xach: Ok, this is news to me. I will update.
2020-09-30T11:59:55Z phoe: but at this point it's old and confuses people
2020-09-30T12:00:06Z phoe: I fixed a bug in someone else's code who downloaded a project from quickdocs instead of git
2020-09-30T12:00:12Z phoe: and they got a 2019 version
2020-09-30T12:00:53Z phoe: at some point I might become annoyed enough to actually go to war with all the abandoned fukamachiware that is still prominent all around the net
2020-09-30T12:01:16Z beach: Isn't quickdocs the one that gathers all the documentation strings (including those for internal stuff) but doesn't take into account real documentation?
2020-09-30T12:01:17Z phoe: quickdocs being one very good example of a website that was once good™ and then got abandoned, making it horrible™
2020-09-30T12:01:28Z phoe: beach: yes
2020-09-30T12:01:30Z mfiano: beach: Yes
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2020-09-30T12:01:41Z beach: That's what I remembered, yes.
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2020-09-30T12:02:38Z mseddon: and yeesh. can we all start using https, it's 2020, ssl certs are free and easy to set up. :P
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2020-09-30T12:04:02Z jackdaniel: while I agree that https is rather a good thing, it is not that there are no issues with making it omnipresent standard
2020-09-30T12:04:26Z Xach is still adding to https://github.com/search?o=desc&q=type%3Aissue+author%3Aquicklisp&s=created&type=Issues
2020-09-30T12:05:00Z mfiano: I would find it interesting for such a project to handle "real documentation".
2020-09-30T12:05:44Z mfiano: More interesting would be handling #'(setf documentation) runtime changes :)
2020-09-30T12:06:09Z mseddon: jackdaniel: that's a crap argument for not employing it though. Safety belts aren't 100% either.
2020-09-30T12:06:20Z jackdaniel: energy efficiency, bandwidch increase (also speed), complicated specification (i.e hard to get right to implement from scratch)
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2020-09-30T12:07:15Z jackdaniel: the last one applies also to so called "web"; adding more and more crap to the "standard' makes it impossible undertaking to anyone who is not a corporation with deep pockets
2020-09-30T12:07:18Z jackdaniel: but that's offtopic
2020-09-30T12:07:21Z jackdaniel: sorry about that
2020-09-30T12:07:30Z mseddon: np, I kinda started it :) back to lisping
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2020-09-30T12:08:06Z jackdaniel: (and I don't think of my arguments as being crap, in fact I took some time to think about this topic)
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2020-09-30T12:08:34Z phoe: https://github.com/quickdocs/quickdocs/issues/46
2020-09-30T12:08:43Z phoe: okay, anger time over, time to do elsethings
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2020-09-30T12:12:46Z ebrasca: Good to know quickdocs is outdated.
2020-09-30T12:13:47Z phoe: it's both good and terrible to know quickdocs is outdated
2020-09-30T12:13:54Z phoe: good, because now me and you know not to use it
2020-09-30T12:14:04Z phoe: terrible, because hardly anyone else will know not to use it
2020-09-30T12:14:14Z mseddon: only brave adventurers deep in the logs.
2020-09-30T12:14:32Z phoe: or take a look at the project dates on quickdocs and compare those with git releases
2020-09-30T12:14:46Z mfiano: Also good, because it's one more reminder and one more straw to break more camels' backs and not to rely on fukamachiware
2020-09-30T12:15:00Z jackdaniel: virtual pointer in charming in action: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/c9d36e0f-terminal-pointers.webm
2020-09-30T12:15:36Z phoe: woah! nice
2020-09-30T12:15:49Z jackdaniel: thanks
2020-09-30T12:15:55Z mseddon: jackdaniel: cute!
2020-09-30T12:16:30Z jackdaniel: (virtual pointer that is an "emulated" pointer which acts on keyboard gestures)
2020-09-30T12:17:01Z phoe: does McCLIM or CLIM have support for multiple pointers?
2020-09-30T12:17:06Z jackdaniel: yes
2020-09-30T12:17:13Z jackdaniel: however it is not tested
2020-09-30T12:17:21Z jackdaniel: so it is probably broken implementaiton-wise
2020-09-30T12:17:35Z phoe: there are few windowing systems that support multiple mice
2020-09-30T12:17:48Z phoe: so I can imagine it is not tested very well
2020-09-30T12:17:53Z jackdaniel: there are more pointer devices then a mice - i.e a touchscreen
2020-09-30T12:18:05Z jackdaniel: and it is more common in notebooks (and works fairly well)
2020-09-30T12:18:21Z phoe: oh, like that! yes, I see, a touchscreen can have multiple click support easily
2020-09-30T12:19:01Z mseddon: hopefully it's relatively easy to also add support for gestures like pinch etc that use multiple pointers.
2020-09-30T12:19:12Z Nilby: jackdaniel: are you using ncurses as a compositor?
2020-09-30T12:19:39Z mseddon: ncurses would probably have clipped that text instead of wrapping it.
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2020-09-30T12:31:46Z jackdaniel: sorry, I was afk
2020-09-30T12:31:54Z jackdaniel: Nilby: I only use small .c file to put terminal in raw mode
2020-09-30T12:32:21Z jackdaniel: then I use escape codes (as for ecma-48) + few extension escape codes as for xterm
2020-09-30T12:32:34Z Xach: that is very cool
2020-09-30T12:32:40Z jackdaniel: thanks
2020-09-30T12:32:51Z Xach: we are only a few short years from an ide as nice as borland
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2020-09-30T12:33:20Z Nilby: Hmmm. I guess that's no compositor then. That looks very fast for no compositor.
2020-09-30T12:33:26Z jackdaniel: if it eats less than 8GB of ram we are bleeding edge regardless :)
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2020-09-30T12:33:50Z jackdaniel: Nilby: I have written buffering myself, I've blogged a little about that
2020-09-30T12:34:04Z jackdaniel: here: http://turtleware.eu/posts/Charming-CLIM-tutorial-part-2--Rethinking-The-Output.html
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2020-09-30T12:36:49Z schweers: Xach: do you really find Borland better than Emacs with SLIME?
2020-09-30T12:37:16Z jackdaniel: the target goal is to write a clim application and be able to run it over: terminal, web and natively (or even switch at runtime;)
2020-09-30T12:37:32Z Nilby: jackdaniel: Wow, Thanks for that blog post. I wrote a lisp-only curses-like thing but it's very slow, so I'm envious.
2020-09-30T12:37:34Z Xach: schweers: no, i do not
2020-09-30T12:37:40Z schweers: phew
2020-09-30T12:37:47Z jackdaniel: Nilby: sure
2020-09-30T12:38:38Z Xach: jackdaniel: do you have a cooked terminal for the debugger? is the animated ui terminal separate from the rest or is it the only interaction terminal?
2020-09-30T12:39:25Z jackdaniel: Xach: could you rephrase?
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2020-09-30T12:41:12Z Xach: jackdaniel: say you have a bug in your code when you move the cursor somewhere, and it would normally trigger the debugger. what happens?
2020-09-30T12:41:23Z Xach: does the debugger appear? if so, where?
2020-09-30T12:41:30Z jackdaniel: ah, that. for now I'm cheating.
2020-09-30T12:41:35Z Xach: lol
2020-09-30T12:41:35Z jackdaniel: C-s opens a swank server
2020-09-30T12:41:42Z jackdaniel: and I have a debugger there
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2020-09-30T12:41:53Z jackdaniel: but eventually debugger will be another "window" in the terminal, yes
2020-09-30T12:41:54Z Xach: that was a minor thing that always made me wonder how to even begin
2020-09-30T12:42:06Z borodust: Xach: ill have a look in a few hours
2020-09-30T12:42:07Z Xach: a debugger in a raw terminal is pretty ugly!
2020-09-30T12:42:17Z jackdaniel: that's true :)
2020-09-30T12:42:21Z jackdaniel: you have all
2020-09-30T12:42:23Z Xach: a default debugger, anyway
2020-09-30T12:42:25Z jackdaniel:           this no line wrap
2020-09-30T12:42:47Z Xach: but a cooked debugger in a cooked terminal could be really nice!
2020-09-30T12:42:52Z Xach: as long as it has no display bugs :)
2020-09-30T12:43:07Z Xach: sorry, raw
2020-09-30T12:43:08Z Xach: not cooked
2020-09-30T12:43:13Z Nilby has a cooked debugger, but it has bug :(
2020-09-30T12:43:21Z Nilby: *bugs
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2020-09-30T12:44:21Z schweers: Xach: out of curiosity: what do you mean by “cooked”?
2020-09-30T12:44:38Z jackdaniel: cooked as opposite to raw: )
2020-09-30T12:45:01Z schweers: I got that part.  But not what that actually means.
2020-09-30T12:45:02Z jackdaniel: Xach: and the question about animation? I did not get that neither
2020-09-30T12:45:14Z schweers: Maybe I just don’t know enough about terminals.
2020-09-30T12:49:06Z Xach: schweers: cooked means the terminal interprets input and output into higher level control sequences
2020-09-30T12:49:15Z Xach: schweers: so if you hit Ctrl-C it sends an interrupt, not a byte
2020-09-30T12:49:33Z Xach: and if it prints a newline, it does a carriage return too
2020-09-30T12:49:35Z schweers: I see.  And a terminal can be in one of those two modes?
2020-09-30T12:49:44Z Xach: schweers: as i understand it in unix, yes
2020-09-30T12:49:52Z schweers: Cool, good to know
2020-09-30T12:50:40Z Xach: jackdaniel: "animation" is a poor choice of words. watching it as a movie made me think of an animated movie, not a recording of an interactive session.
2020-09-30T12:51:05Z Xach: things move on screen: they are animated (by you)
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2020-09-30T12:51:57Z jackdaniel: I've recorded my interactions with the terminal with the application "peek" which captures part of the X11 screen, the rest are interactions directly with the terminal
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2020-09-30T12:52:22Z jackdaniel: changing output in windows is basically a stepped 60fps redraw
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2020-09-30T12:54:02Z jackdaniel: (however a blinking cursor is a text style applied to a text, not a redraw)
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2020-09-30T13:41:51Z mseddon: Xach: Oh! you can do borland style interfaces now- there are unicode characters for the old VGA codepage so you can get all the trimmings.
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2020-09-30T13:43:47Z jackdaniel: unicode characters in terminal emulators are unreliable at best
2020-09-30T13:44:22Z jackdaniel: (i.e they consume more space than one cell but less than two cells and stuff like that)
2020-09-30T13:44:33Z mseddon: they're not great, I admit. and UTF-8 is fun
2020-09-30T13:45:30Z mseddon: plus also terminals themselves are rather unreliable, performance wise.
2020-09-30T13:45:45Z mseddon: some are very fast, some are embarrassingly janky.
2020-09-30T13:46:25Z mseddon: but hey. Borland with poop emoji icons. What's not to love? :)
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2020-09-30T16:29:45Z saganman: I started learning lisp again.
2020-09-30T16:29:49Z beach: Great!
2020-09-30T16:29:56Z saganman: thanks beach
2020-09-30T16:30:22Z saganman: beach: I'm doing online degree in cs
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2020-09-30T16:30:36Z beach: Wow.  Congratulations!
2020-09-30T16:30:58Z saganman: thanks beach
2020-09-30T16:31:25Z beach: If you have any questions, don't hesitate.
2020-09-30T16:31:47Z saganman: sure beach, thank you for the kind words.
2020-09-30T16:32:05Z beach: Sure.  What kind of degree are we talking about?
2020-09-30T16:32:10Z saganman: just installed emacs on windows
2020-09-30T16:32:23Z saganman: bachelors
2020-09-30T16:32:32Z beach: That should be fun.
2020-09-30T16:32:53Z beach: Which institution organizes it?
2020-09-30T16:32:57Z saganman: yeah, I'm already familiar with programming
2020-09-30T16:33:17Z saganman: Indian Institute of Technology
2020-09-30T16:33:39Z beach: I think I have read their program offerings in the past.
2020-09-30T16:33:52Z beach: Very complete it seems.
2020-09-30T16:34:17Z jmercouris_: IIT is my nemesis, I went to IIT in the US :-)
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2020-09-30T16:34:26Z jmercouris_: always taking google search results :-D
2020-09-30T16:35:01Z saganman: I don't know how much lisp I remember
2020-09-30T16:35:13Z beach: saganman: Careful, though.  When I was teaching undergraduates, I found that it was easier to teach programming to those who had never programmed before.  Those who had already programmed had often acquired bad habits that might work for small programs but not for large ones.
2020-09-30T16:35:18Z saganman: last time I used it to solve project euler problems
2020-09-30T16:35:25Z beach: And it was hard to make them change their habits.
2020-09-30T16:35:39Z saganman: beach: this is my second bachelors
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2020-09-30T16:35:55Z beach: What was the first one?
2020-09-30T16:36:05Z saganman: beach: electronics and instrumentation
2020-09-30T16:36:13Z beach: Nice.
2020-09-30T16:36:58Z saganman: beach: we had a little bit of programming there but I was enthusiastic embedded programmer back then. Mainly doing atmega stuff.
2020-09-30T16:37:34Z beach: I see.
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2020-09-30T16:39:00Z madnificent: beach: fully agree.  bad experience often leads to unexpected twists.
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2020-09-30T16:40:55Z contrapunctus: saganman: oh, hello from Delhi 😀
2020-09-30T16:41:00Z beach: We called them "cowboy programmers" (they were typically all male).  They would always be convinced that we were talking BS, because they had a very long experience, so they obviously knew better.  Needless to say, they were unhappy when we gave them bad grades.
2020-09-30T16:41:16Z saganman: contrapunctus: Hello
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2020-09-30T16:41:48Z beach: "BUT MY PROGRAM WORKS!"
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2020-09-30T16:42:00Z madnificent: * temporarily
2020-09-30T16:42:44Z beach: Answer: "A working program that is not maintainable is worthless because it can't be fixed, but a non-working program that is maintainable can easily be fixed to work."
2020-09-30T16:42:55Z madnificent: though I can imagine it is hard to convince them though.  we got a course at some point indicating changes to a project.  that helped make clear why good design matters.  it is a lengthy lesson.
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2020-09-30T16:43:08Z beach: "because it can't evolve" is what I meant to say.
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2020-09-30T16:43:09Z saganman: beach: true
2020-09-30T16:43:21Z mseddon: rule 1 of code entropy: your program is breaking, and gaining bugs, because the environment it runs in is changing. You don't have to do anything, it is already melting.
2020-09-30T16:43:38Z beach: madnificent: I see, yes.
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2020-09-30T16:44:28Z saganman: and also experience doesn't mean they are better
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2020-09-30T16:45:11Z mseddon: ^
2020-09-30T16:45:23Z _death: I'm a cowboy programmer / Shooting from the hip / A bullet named cadaddr / That's three levels deep
2020-09-30T16:45:24Z mseddon: 20 years visual basic programming doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
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2020-09-30T16:46:29Z saganman: beach: https://xkcd.com/1954/
2020-09-30T16:46:50Z saganman: this is so apt, lol
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2020-09-30T18:14:31Z borodust: Xach: i'm looking into bodge-blobs-support issue but doesn't see anything wrong with the repo so far (`stable` is the tag)
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2020-09-30T18:15:50Z borodust: Xach: can you paste git commands somewhere (maybe command log?), i'll try to reproduce
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2020-09-30T18:17:03Z borodust: *don't see
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2020-09-30T18:49:20Z Xach: borodust: i will check again
2020-09-30T18:49:37Z Xach: a windstorm knocked power out! but everything is back and ready to compile
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2020-09-30T18:54:25Z Xach: borodust: aha, it is a false alarm - the system is trying to archive bodge-glad first, and i have not updated it from branched to tagged.
2020-09-30T18:54:58Z borodust: a bunch of excluded bodge-* systems should work now
2020-09-30T18:55:06Z borodust: incl. bodge-glad
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2020-09-30T19:16:28Z Xach: excellent
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2020-09-30T20:26:20Z phoe: History question: why is LABELS named LABELS?
2020-09-30T20:26:38Z phoe: oh, I found an answer
2020-09-30T20:26:40Z phoe: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/k1tnl/where_does_the_special_form_labels_come_from/
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2020-09-30T20:47:44Z alanz: phoe, is that related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphoric_macro#Defining_anaphoric_macros (which I happened to come across today)
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2020-09-30T20:48:53Z phoe: alanz: hmmmm, I actually don't think so
2020-09-30T20:49:41Z alanz: just happen to be doing something vaguely similar, in refering to a self-referential function. The second example. Many ways to skin a cat, I suppose
2020-09-30T20:52:08Z phoe: oh, yes
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2020-09-30T22:13:37Z Xach: borodust: going down a rabbit hole of new bodge-* stuff!
2020-09-30T22:13:53Z Xach adds bodge-memory and bodge-concurrency and bodge-host
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2020-09-30T22:16:41Z borodust: Xach: that's the whole _I_ don't want to go onto.. what happend? something was depending on those? examples, o guess
2020-09-30T22:17:08Z Xach: bodge-nuklear/example yeah
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2020-09-30T22:19:00Z borodust: shite
2020-09-30T22:19:09Z Xach: I keep finding more missing bodges :)
2020-09-30T22:19:20Z Xach is on to bodge-math and bodge-queue
2020-09-30T22:20:58Z borodust: i feel stripped
2020-09-30T22:21:49Z borodust: there's nothing left
2020-09-30T22:23:42Z phoe: we are quicklisp. the cl-bodge dist will be assimilated. resistance is futile, and it conses a lot anyway.
2020-09-30T22:24:28Z aeth: does bodge- outnumber trivial- yet?
2020-09-30T22:24:52Z borodust: i came prepared! just need to finish this pesky C++ support in :claw..
2020-09-30T22:24:59Z aeth: The final challenge is outnumbering cl-foo, though
2020-09-30T22:25:07Z phoe goes to make a trivial-bodge
2020-09-30T22:25:15Z borodust: there's
2020-09-30T22:25:29Z borodust: it's called trivial-gamekit though
2020-09-30T22:25:44Z borodust: i like trivial-bodge more, though
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2020-09-30T22:26:37Z borodust: you have my blessing
2020-09-30T22:26:41Z phoe: gasp
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2020-09-30T22:27:52Z aeth: does QL support wildcards yet? trivial-bodge can just use "BODGE-*"
2020-09-30T22:28:07Z phoe: asdf would need to support those
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2020-09-30T22:28:44Z phoe: but, I guess, if you make a git repository with a *ton* of submodules and slap a trivial-bodge.asd on top...
2020-09-30T22:28:45Z borodust: i wonder if dist merging could be a thing
2020-09-30T22:29:00Z aeth: phoe: ASDF works on systems, QL works on projects, and they're not the same... annoying projects like CL-SDL2 that use systems like SDL2 break that assumption. (And even if that assumption held, there are lots of secondary systems)
2020-09-30T22:29:47Z Inline: projects, systems, modules, packages
2020-09-30T22:29:54Z borodust: amen
2020-09-30T22:31:20Z aeth: The goal of trivial-bodge would be to load every bodge project, but not necessarily every bodge system (since e.g. some might just be for tests... although at the moment every bodge-* project in Quicklisp has one system, of the same name)
2020-09-30T22:31:56Z borodust: yeh, there's such project
2020-09-30T22:32:11Z borodust: it's called cl-bodge
2020-09-30T22:32:31Z borodust: actually, i lied
2020-09-30T22:32:34Z phoe: ooh, so there *does* exist a cl-bodge
2020-09-30T22:32:34Z aeth: OK, good, that can be what makes trivial-bodge so trivial, then. It can just depend on cl-bodge
2020-09-30T22:32:47Z phoe: so we need a trivial-cl-bodge
2020-09-30T22:32:48Z phoe: don't we
2020-09-30T22:32:49Z Inline: import, shadowin import, export, shadowin export, reexport......
2020-09-30T22:33:05Z aeth: phoe: what about cl-trivial-bodge? or trivial-bodge-cl?
2020-09-30T22:33:15Z borodust: there _are_ rare bodge libs that are not used by cl-bodge
2020-09-30T22:33:22Z aeth: and bodge-trivial-cl could use CFFI to talk to ECL from other CLs
2020-09-30T22:33:37Z phoe: aeth: hu.dwim.cl-trivial-bodge.test
2020-09-30T22:33:57Z borodust: stop giving me weird ideas
2020-09-30T22:34:27Z aeth: borodust: libecl.so is just another .so file, so you might as well make bodge-trivial-cl
2020-09-30T22:35:04Z borodust: bodgecl
2020-09-30T22:35:45Z borodust: okay, i have a name for a new implementation
2020-09-30T22:36:22Z borodust: patents pending, don't use
2020-09-30T22:37:28Z borodust: Inline: that's what bodge-utilities do
2020-09-30T22:38:05Z borodust: https://github.com/borodust/bodge-utilities/blob/master/src/packages.lisp
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2020-09-30T22:38:17Z borodust: kinda.. sorry?
2020-09-30T22:38:47Z phoe: (:export ... #:f ...)
2020-09-30T22:38:50Z phoe: respectful
2020-09-30T22:39:20Z borodust: man of culture, if you must
2020-09-30T22:39:37Z Inline: oyaaaa, this*
2020-09-30T22:39:40Z Inline: heh
2020-09-30T22:39:55Z Inline: much c++ in you ?
2020-09-30T22:39:58Z Inline: hahaha
2020-09-30T22:40:10Z phoe: okay, enough fooling around for me
2020-09-30T22:40:13Z phoe: sleep time, night night
2020-09-30T22:40:30Z borodust: Inline: you just murdered me
2020-09-30T22:40:34Z borodust: and exposed
2020-09-30T22:40:53Z borodust: tortured my soul
2020-09-30T22:41:08Z Inline: i just saw you initialize-instance :after (this array-slice).....
2020-09-30T22:41:18Z borodust: too much of that C××p language lately
2020-09-30T22:42:14Z borodust: alright, i must follow phoe, he knows something
2020-09-30T22:42:57Z borodust: good night!
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2020-09-30T23:03:40Z Xach: borodust: noooo!
2020-09-30T23:04:07Z Xach: borodust: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-09-30/failure-report.html#claw/tests
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2020-09-30T23:04:40Z borodust: the hell
2020-09-30T23:06:14Z borodust: Xach: actually, can you exclude :claw/tests?
2020-09-30T23:06:32Z Xach: borodust: i can
2020-09-30T23:08:26Z borodust: please
2020-09-30T23:10:44Z Xach: i will!
2020-09-30T23:10:47Z borodust: i know i know, i should have abandoned all those, ripped them out of quicklisp body, but.. i couldn't
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2020-09-30T23:11:13Z borodust: im just another weak soul
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2020-09-30T23:12:52Z Xach: you might get gc'd too soon
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2020-09-30T23:14:45Z borodust: gotta get referenced, i guess
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2020-09-30T23:17:56Z borodust: anyway, back to bed, in bodge i trust
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2020-09-30T23:22:46Z Xach: ashes to ashes
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