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nathan biernatt if you have questions you can message me 2020-07-01T07:21:25Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe 2020-07-01T07:21:30Z phoe has set mode +b *!*nate48423@50.105.119.* 2020-07-01T07:21:30Z nate48423 [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (okay) 2020-07-01T07:21:33Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe 2020-07-01T07:27:02Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-01T07:29:37Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-01T07:30:06Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-01T07:38:03Z fluxwave joined #lisp 2020-07-01T07:38:22Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-01T07:42:20Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-01T07:43:01Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-01T07:44:35Z Oladon quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-01T07:47:16Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-01T07:50:28Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-01T07:50:43Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-01T07:52:14Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-01T07:52:15Z rgherdt quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-01T07:52:32Z 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I am displeased that it does not list any Requirements in http://quickdocs.org/scalpl 2020-07-01T11:15:00Z adlai is currently reading through a likely culprit, https://github.com/quickdocs/quickdocs-extracter 2020-07-01T11:18:33Z adlai wonders whether there is a specific reason that quickdocs.org has not updated the quicklisp dist since december 2019 2020-07-01T11:19:45Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T11:20:13Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-01T11:20:42Z zooey joined #lisp 2020-07-01T11:22:54Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-01T11:28:07Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-01T11:29:19Z libertyprime quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T11:30:16Z phoe: adlai: fukamachiware™ 2020-07-01T11:30:58Z phoe: or alternatively Yet Another Abandoned Lisp Project That Is Half-Useful Half-Harmful™ 2020-07-01T11:31:09Z phoe: and it's not like I'm without fault here, UltraSpec also belongs on that list 2020-07-01T11:32:22Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2020-07-01T11:32:28Z adlai adjusts phoe's Venn diagram: there are useless harms, useful harmlessnesses, etc 2020-07-01T11:33:14Z adlai: or perhaps: "The opposite of 'abandoned' is not 'maintained'." 2020-07-01T11:33:35Z phoe: yes, correct 2020-07-01T11:33:51Z Xach: Hmm, bitbucket has not yet deleted hg repos. 2020-07-01T11:33:54Z adlai: at least you didn't say "yeah, right", then we'd both be confused 2020-07-01T11:33:58Z phoe: there are projects that don't cause confusion when they are left unmaintained. 2020-07-01T11:34:02Z phoe: or abandoned. 2020-07-01T11:34:06Z phoe: or just don't see activity. 2020-07-01T11:34:09Z Xach: I wonder if they're just going through them alphabetically 2020-07-01T11:34:15Z Xach: one per day 2020-07-01T11:34:25Z phoe: projects that are supposed to be always fresh don't belong on that list though 2020-07-01T11:34:29Z mrcom quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2020-07-01T11:34:57Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-07-01T11:35:11Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-01T11:35:22Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-01T11:35:30Z adlai: e.g., sheeple has had neither new features, nor bugs fixed, for about a decade, and I consider that library both maintained and abandoned 2020-07-01T11:36:38Z phoe: it's also called "complete" 2020-07-01T11:36:49Z adlai: apparently a handful of other libraries depend on it to a sufficiently minor degree that it does not require any of the unfinished work to be continued 2020-07-01T11:37:19Z adlai: it could arguably be considered complete, although iirc it is quite far from having thorough test coverage 2020-07-01T11:37:52Z splittist: discovery is a hard problem exacerbated by the community's penchant for quirky naming 2020-07-01T11:39:08Z adlai recalls burning out somewhere between "reach sufficient unit test coverage that the lock-free parallelizable parts can be identified", and "steal yet another optimiziation from the open-source CLOS implementations" 2020-07-01T11:39:14Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T11:40:03Z _death: "complete" is a myth.. many libraries can easily be improved upon 2020-07-01T11:41:35Z kinope quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T11:41:36Z phoe: _death: okay, s/complete/good enough/ 2020-07-01T11:42:04Z splittist: complete === perfect? 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2020-07-01T13:27:02Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-01T13:27:14Z adlai: the "CL Object Network". this is actually unfortunate, the author decided to scrub away most of his work from the public internet. oh well. 2020-07-01T13:27:38Z phoe: https://www.cliki.net/Clon 2020-07-01T13:27:39Z phoe: there's three 2020-07-01T13:28:33Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-01T13:29:03Z adlai remembers enjoying DTO's games, a decade ago. 2020-07-01T13:30:48Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-01T13:30:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-01T13:37:02Z kinope quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-01T13:38:04Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-01T13:38:54Z montxero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T13:41:19Z adlai can't tell what exactly went wrong, other than a disagreement over intellectual property; anyway, this is off-topic 2020-07-01T13:59:18Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:00:49Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-01T14:00:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:10:22Z OpenZen joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:17:13Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-01T14:17:35Z elflng joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:18:26Z Codaraxis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-01T14:18:46Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:21:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-01T14:22:08Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:24:13Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-01T14:26:07Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:27:38Z simendsjo joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:28:18Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-01T14:28:55Z RedMallet quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 2020-07-01T14:30:25Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:30:48Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:31:07Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-01T14:31:16Z mrcom joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:36:12Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T14:36:13Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-01T14:36:53Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:37:35Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:37:44Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-01T14:38:16Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:39:28Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T14:41:05Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:41:18Z aindilis joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:46:12Z gareppa joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:46:49Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T14:47:54Z userone joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:48:17Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-01T14:49:55Z bsd4me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-01T14:57:38Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-01T15:00:27Z efm_ joined #lisp 2020-07-01T15:03:15Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-07-01T15:05:05Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-01T15:05:40Z theseb joined #lisp 2020-07-01T15:11:29Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-01T15:25:50Z efm_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-07-01T15:29:15Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-01T15:31:35Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-01T15:31:35Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-01T15:31:35Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-01T15:48:45Z julio_ joined #lisp 2020-07-01T15:49:47Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2020-07-01T15:52:42Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-01T15:56:47Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T15:58:46Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2020-07-01T16:10:52Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-01T16:11:16Z joels: Hello all 2020-07-01T16:11:32Z beach: Hello joels. 2020-07-01T16:12:28Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-01T16:12:52Z beach: joels: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2020-07-01T16:12:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-01T16:13:16Z joels: Yes quite new. new to #Lisp and new to Lisp ;) 2020-07-01T16:13:30Z beach: Great! Welcome! 2020-07-01T16:13:36Z joels: Thanks thanks 2020-07-01T16:13:44Z phoe: hey hi helloooo 2020-07-01T16:14:00Z beach: joels: There is also #clschool for truly elementary questions. 2020-07-01T16:14:09Z joels: thanks 2020-07-01T16:14:33Z beach: So you plan to learn Common Lisp? 2020-07-01T16:15:02Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-07-01T16:15:34Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-01T16:15:50Z phoe: beach's question stems from the fact that #lisp is a Common Lisp place; other lisp dialects have their own channels, like #racket, #scheme, #clojure and so forth 2020-07-01T16:15:51Z joels: Would like to do that at some point. 2020-07-01T16:16:02Z phoe: there's also #lispcafe for general off-topic discussions and general hanging out 2020-07-01T16:16:15Z joels: ah #lispcafe sounds good 2020-07-01T16:17:47Z julio_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-01T16:17:57Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-01T16:17:59Z joels: If I recall, the book "land of lisp" is on CL. do you find it a good introduction ? 2020-07-01T16:18:32Z beach: If you already know how to program in some other language, the general recommendation is PCL. 2020-07-01T16:18:40Z beach: minion: Please tell joels about PCL. 2020-07-01T16:18:40Z minion: joels: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2020-07-01T16:19:07Z joels: ah 2020-07-01T16:19:54Z joels: Thanks 2020-07-01T16:20:12Z beach: His advice about a development environment is a bit dated. These days we recommend Portacle, unless you already use Emacs, in which case we just recommend you install SLIME. 2020-07-01T16:21:42Z joels: Emacs is fine ;) 2020-07-01T16:21:53Z phoe: perfect then 2020-07-01T16:22:04Z joels: I have tried my hands on a tiny bit of emacs-lisp 2020-07-01T16:22:30Z beach: I should have said we recommend you install Quicklisp and then use Quicklisp to install SLIME. 2020-07-01T16:22:57Z beach: joels: You should not have much trouble with Common Lisp then. 2020-07-01T16:23:02Z joels: Oh thats another question by the way what is the CL implementation to use SBCL? 2020-07-01T16:23:08Z phoe: SBCL is the most popular one 2020-07-01T16:23:18Z phoe: so also the most supported one, I guess 2020-07-01T16:23:31Z joels: cool 2020-07-01T16:23:58Z phoe: if you use any kind of emacs distribution such as spacemacs and/or doom emacs, then you can follow its instructions for installing CL stuff 2020-07-01T16:24:10Z phoe: for instance, spacemacs has its common-lisp layer that includes slime along with its configuration 2020-07-01T16:24:14Z phoe: I'm using it that way 2020-07-01T16:24:24Z phoe: otherwise, use quicklisp and (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) 2020-07-01T16:24:29Z joels: ah 2020-07-01T16:24:41Z phoe: then emacs should become slime-aware 2020-07-01T16:24:48Z phoe: and mostly configured to use it 2020-07-01T16:25:11Z joels: Thanks for the help 2020-07-01T16:33:00Z zigpaw quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-01T16:33:10Z fanta1 quit (Quit: fanta1) 2020-07-01T16:35:12Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-01T16:35:47Z joels: that seemed to work actually. cool. (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) 2020-07-01T16:36:25Z joels: emacs is in "Lisp adoc Slime" mode 2020-07-01T16:37:04Z phoe: you mean the repl, or a Lisp file? 2020-07-01T16:37:22Z joels: lisp file 2020-07-01T16:37:27Z phoe: looks OK 2020-07-01T16:38:46Z joels: M-x slime started a repl 2020-07-01T16:39:57Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-01T16:40:03Z phoe: perfect 2020-07-01T16:40:05Z phoe: happy hacking! 2020-07-01T16:40:29Z joels: thansk 2020-07-01T16:40:35Z phoe: no rpoblem 2020-07-01T16:43:11Z joels: This will take some time getting used to ;) 2020-07-01T16:44:50Z beach: joels: A typical way of working would be to split the Emacs frame into a REPL window and a source-file window. 2020-07-01T16:46:01Z beach: joels: You would then type your code in the source file and either compile it with C-c C-k (if I remember correctly), or when you learn a bit more, you would create an ASDF file and load your code that way. 2020-07-01T16:46:40Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-01T16:47:34Z akrl`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-01T16:47:48Z phoe: https://i.imgur.com/QtORSkj.png <- that's what my emacs window looks like right now 2020-07-01T16:47:48Z akrl`` joined #lisp 2020-07-01T16:48:12Z phoe: I do C-c on the left pane to compile-and-load individual functions 2020-07-01T16:48:18Z phoe: or rather, forms 2020-07-01T16:48:30Z RedMallet joined #lisp 2020-07-01T16:49:07Z joels: Right having a repl and editor open side by side is very nice 2020-07-01T16:49:24Z jw4 quit (Quit: tot siens) 2020-07-01T16:49:25Z joels: I managed to load a file by doing (load "apa.lisp") 2020-07-01T16:50:28Z phoe: that's one way of loading files in Lisp 2020-07-01T16:50:33Z phoe: not very slimeful 2020-07-01T16:50:36Z phoe: but possbile 2020-07-01T16:50:48Z phoe: usually I open a Lisp file and do C-c C-k to compile-and-load the whole file 2020-07-01T16:51:07Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-07-01T16:52:06Z joels: right. C-c C-k seems fine 2020-07-01T16:55:07Z zigpaw joined #lisp 2020-07-01T16:56:54Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-01T16:57:37Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-01T16:57:49Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T17:00:27Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-07-01T17:00:38Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T17:00:54Z Josh_2: Evening 2020-07-01T17:01:05Z joels: Good evening 2020-07-01T17:15:47Z theBlackDragon quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-01T17:15:47Z nckx quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-01T17:15:47Z femi quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-01T17:15:47Z tessier quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-01T17:15:47Z ck_ quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-01T17:15:47Z zymurgy quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-01T17:15:47Z jurov quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-01T17:15:47Z ssake quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-01T17:15:47Z azrazalea quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-01T17:15:47Z ft quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-01T17:15:47Z phadthai quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-01T17:15:47Z natj212 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ffwacom Inoperable Guest9274 aap jxy ozzloy nydel trn c_nix zagura swflint |3b| thonkpod jsatk lad fengshaun grumble cracauer XachX RagnarDanneskjol astronavt [df] payphone drot cybercafe rotty mgr_ flip214 cpape TMA MetaYan matijja luis Ankhers jgkamat kapil_ sbryant mr_yogurt yang 2020-07-01T17:18:49Z Ziemas_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-01T17:19:13Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2020-07-01T17:20:28Z ntr joined #lisp 2020-07-01T17:21:27Z aeth joined #lisp 2020-07-01T17:21:49Z glamas joined #lisp 2020-07-01T17:22:20Z Frobozz_ joined #lisp 2020-07-01T17:23:13Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-01T17:23:39Z Ziemas joined #lisp 2020-07-01T17:24:13Z Frobozz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-01T17:25:14Z joels: Is that a game you are working on there, phoe? 2020-07-01T17:25:56Z RedMallet quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 2020-07-01T17:26:22Z Josh_2 quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-01T17:26:22Z ahungry quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-01T17:26:22Z simendsjo quit (*.net *.split) 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But I guess that is part of the challenge 2020-07-01T17:33:34Z igemnace quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-07-01T17:33:49Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-01T17:34:01Z joels: Is that the basis of some graphical top down view strategy of some sort? 2020-07-01T17:34:30Z phoe: yes 2020-07-01T17:34:44Z gareppa joined #lisp 2020-07-01T17:36:04Z joels: Sounds like fun. good luck 2020-07-01T17:36:04Z gareppa quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-01T17:39:32Z ym joined #lisp 2020-07-01T17:42:31Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-01T17:43:36Z igemnace joined #lisp 2020-07-01T17:47:01Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-01T17:48:53Z phoe: <3 2020-07-01T17:48:54Z phoe: thankee 2020-07-01T17:49:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-01T17:49:27Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-01T17:53:47Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-01T18:00:21Z tumdum_ is now known as tumdum 2020-07-01T18:00:46Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-07-01T18:01:30Z tumdum quit (Changing host) 2020-07-01T18:01:30Z 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2020-07-02T05:05:13Z OpenZen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-02T05:05:21Z OpenZen joined #lisp 2020-07-02T05:11:55Z KaiLikesLinux: Lots of joins and leaves today 2020-07-02T05:16:38Z OpenZen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-02T05:17:04Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T05:18:12Z beach: KaiLikesLinux: I am guessing that is because there are a lot of participants. Statistically, that would imply more joins and leaves. 2020-07-02T05:18:25Z beach: KaiLikesLinux: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2020-07-02T05:18:31Z KaiLikesLinux: beach: It makes sense, but still, and yes I am brand new 2020-07-02T05:18:48Z beach: Great! Welcome! What brings you to #lisp? 2020-07-02T05:19:32Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-02T05:19:36Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-02T05:19:37Z KaiLikesLinux: I am a fan of lisp languages (Clojure and Common Lisp are my favorites), and am currently developing a Lisp inspired Markup language that translates into HTML 2020-07-02T05:19:50Z beach: I see. 2020-07-02T05:20:00Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-02T05:20:37Z KaiLikesLinux: Yeah, I need to learn Common again, lost that knowledge out of just not practicing, but I will get back on it 2020-07-02T05:21:29Z beach: Sounds good. Do you develop this thing in order to practice, or is it meant to be useful? I am asking because I believe there are already some markup systems based on Common Lisp out there. 2020-07-02T05:23:32Z KaiLikesLinux: It is meant to be useful. This one is directly for websites, because I got sick of HTML. It is also supposed to make sense, and maybe add things like variables on HTML. I also want to make a scripting language for it, plus a CSS framework for it. A lot of it is inspired by PugJS too 2020-07-02T05:23:39Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-02T05:24:28Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-02T05:25:10Z beach: The web is not one of my domains of expertise, but it does sound very fancy. 2020-07-02T05:26:24Z thmprover quit (Quit: For Here, I Hope, Begins Our Lasting Joy) 2020-07-02T05:26:31Z KaiLikesLinux: it isn't. It is so easy I made my MEML project (lisp markup for web) a transpiler, not even a compiler to HTML code 2020-07-02T05:27:18Z julio_ joined #lisp 2020-07-02T05:29:52Z bsd4me quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-02T05:33:15Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-02T05:34:52Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-07-02T05:43:31Z dale is now known as dale_ 2020-07-02T05:44:19Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-02T05:54:59Z marusich joined #lisp 2020-07-02T05:57:05Z dale_ quit (Quit: dale_) 2020-07-02T06:00:23Z dale joined #lisp 2020-07-02T06:00:32Z julio_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-02T06:01:25Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2020-07-02T06:02:14Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-02T06:04:08Z julio_ joined #lisp 2020-07-02T06:08:29Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-02T06:08:57Z phoe: KaiLikesLinux: hey hi 2020-07-02T06:09:13Z phoe: AFAIK there already are such projects, CL-WHO and others - you can take a look at them for inspiration 2020-07-02T06:09:37Z julio_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-02T06:15:41Z KaiLikesLinux: phoe: Thank you, and will go 2020-07-02T06:15:45Z KaiLikesLinux: will do* 2020-07-02T06:24:12Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-02T06:27:02Z marusich joined #lisp 2020-07-02T06:32:46Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-02T06:33:06Z stoneglass joined #lisp 2020-07-02T06:34:16Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-07-02T06:35:34Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-02T06:41:41Z MidHotaru joined #lisp 2020-07-02T06:41:48Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-02T06:44:00Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-02T06:46:03Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-07-02T06:49:26Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-02T06:50:21Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-02T07:06:57Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-02T07:07:55Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-02T07:08:06Z KaiLikesLinux: Welcome Joels and PVE 2020-07-02T07:10:41Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-07-02T07:10:53Z KaiLikesLinux: hello zaquest 2020-07-02T07:11:12Z zaquest: hello 2020-07-02T07:11:35Z beach: KaiLikesLinux: It is not going to be useful to greet anyone that joins. It will just create a lot of noise. 2020-07-02T07:11:47Z KaiLikesLinux: beach: ah, sorry 2020-07-02T07:12:07Z KaiLikesLinux: I am still too used to the flow of discord and telegram 2020-07-02T07:12:14Z beach: I usually greet people who announce their arrival. That way, I know they are not just lurkers. 2020-07-02T07:12:25Z KaiLikesLinux: fair 2020-07-02T07:13:19Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-07-02T07:13:21Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-02T07:14:25Z contrapunctus: Does anyone know of an s-expression alternative to MusicXML? 2020-07-02T07:14:40Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T07:15:38Z joels: Good morning 2020-07-02T07:15:52Z KaiLikesLinux: Good mornin! 2020-07-02T07:18:02Z phoe: KaiLikesLinux: I personally mute joins and parts, since they're tons of noise 2020-07-02T07:18:16Z phoe: if someone is offline and I want to leave them a message, there's a bot over here that provides memo functionality 2020-07-02T07:18:24Z phoe: minion: memo for KaiLikesLinux: like that, for instance 2020-07-02T07:18:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell KaiLikesLinux when he/she/it next speaks. 2020-07-02T07:18:59Z phoe: otherwise, typing e.g. "Good morning everyone!" is a good way to let everyone know that you greet and would like to be greeted 2020-07-02T07:19:44Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2020-07-02T07:20:02Z phoe: at least around here, I think that greeting random people would most likely mean that you require something from them - at least that's how I'd feel if I got a random "hello" from a person I don't recognize 2020-07-02T07:20:24Z contrapunctus: minion: I find it so much more elegant to just write "they" 2020-07-02T07:20:25Z minion: I find it so much more elegant to just write "they": An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/I%20find%20it%20so%20much%20more%20elegant%20to%20just%20write%20\"they\"?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 87.. 2020-07-02T07:20:27Z joels: I just ordered "practical common lisp" as per recommendation ;) 2020-07-02T07:20:50Z phoe: contrapunctus: minion is a bot 2020-07-02T07:21:06Z phoe: joels: also http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2020-07-02T07:21:34Z phoe: contrapunctus: https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/blob/09bfce724afd20c91a08acde8816be6faf5f54b2/minion/minion.lisp#L547 2020-07-02T07:21:58Z joels: oh cool. I do like having the physical copy though 2020-07-02T07:22:06Z phoe: I know the feeling 2020-07-02T07:22:39Z beach: contrapunctus: Are you working on music software? 2020-07-02T07:22:41Z joels: But a digital version is also cool to dip into while programming 2020-07-02T07:22:55Z Krystof joined #lisp 2020-07-02T07:22:59Z adlai: minion: english 2020-07-02T07:23:01Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``english''. 2020-07-02T07:23:45Z adlai: minion: cliki 2020-07-02T07:23:46Z minion: cliki: index: https://www.cliki.net/index 2020-07-02T07:23:49Z contrapunctus: beach: thinking of it. 2020-07-02T07:24:10Z adlai: minion: minion 2020-07-02T07:24:10Z minion: minion: https://www.cliki.net/minion 2020-07-02T07:24:15Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-02T07:24:19Z contrapunctus: phoe: thanks, I sent that deliberately 😀 2020-07-02T07:24:38Z phoe: contrapunctus: might want to send a PR too 2020-07-02T07:24:39Z contrapunctus: (Although I didn't expect the error.) 2020-07-02T07:24:43Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-02T07:24:54Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-02T07:25:09Z contrapunctus: Ah, so that's what you meant. Thanks, I'll consider it 🙂 2020-07-02T07:25:23Z beach: contrapunctus: Great! For your information, I am planning version 2 of Gsharp, called Clovetree. It will use McCLIM for displaying the result and it will use essentially the same layout algorithm, but the presentation will use new font technology. 2020-07-02T07:25:23Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-02T07:25:39Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-07-02T07:26:11Z adlai: my guess, contrapunctus, is that the author of the fragment "when he/she/it next speaks" probably anticipated that IRC conversations might plausibly involve more than one bot. 2020-07-02T07:26:12Z beach: contrapunctus: jackdaniel has a task to work on the GUI, which is something I am not very good at. 2020-07-02T07:26:13Z srji quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T07:26:26Z srji joined #lisp 2020-07-02T07:26:34Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-02T07:27:09Z contrapunctus: beach: Sounds fancy 🙂 I'm thinking of making a performance-oriented viewer for music, which will read MusicXML. I was also hoping for some s-exp format too, so I set about to look if one already exists. 2020-07-02T07:27:27Z beach: contrapunctus: That sounds quite useful. 2020-07-02T07:30:15Z phoe: XML in general can be expressed neatly using s-expressions 2020-07-02T07:30:30Z contrapunctus: beach: PDF/images irk me as a music format, so I'd like to make something reflowable, which adapts to the screen (no blank spaces), whose display is customizable (font, weight, color, etc), which never cuts off musical information midway (e.g. half a note displayed, or half a staff displayed, etc - as can happen with images), and can scroll in a music-aware manner (e.g. scrolling by musical units - bea 2020-07-02T07:30:30Z contrapunctus: ts, bars, displayed lines) 2020-07-02T07:30:37Z phoe: so perhaps a simple means of converting XML into sexprs would be a good starting point 2020-07-02T07:31:14Z phoe: you're going to do it anyway if you want to parse XML in Lisp (though most likely that'll get parsed into some sort of objects and not into literal list structure) 2020-07-02T07:31:22Z beach: contrapunctus: I see. Like I said, sounds quite useful. 2020-07-02T07:31:33Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-02T07:32:22Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-02T07:32:23Z contrapunctus: Thanks 😁 I hope it also draws more attention to Lisp. 2020-07-02T07:32:30Z beach: Yeah. 2020-07-02T07:32:40Z adlai: contrapunctus: what do you do about legato markings that span measures? 2020-07-02T07:33:56Z momozor joined #lisp 2020-07-02T07:34:37Z contrapunctus: adlai: thanks, I hadn't thought about that. I've seen typesetters break them, so that's an option. Or we could be smarter and try to fit them onto one line if we can, adjusting the display of the adjoining lines 🤔 Or something else? 2020-07-02T07:36:29Z adlai has invariably experienced rage when e.g. G.Henle arranges measures as though people are buying the scores for their value as fishwrap, rather than considering the phrases as poetry that should actually be arranged in a semantically-aware manner 2020-07-02T07:36:53Z contrapunctus: phoe: I was hoping to know of any such representations which are already implemented, which would help me handle the issues they've found...but if there aren't any, then I'll make my own, as you suggest. Say, why would I want them to be 'objects' rather than a list? 🤔 2020-07-02T07:37:09Z phoe: contrapunctus: check out plump 2020-07-02T07:37:19Z phoe: it's a XML parser that parses into a set of standard objects 2020-07-02T07:37:26Z adlai: you might find algorithms worth stealing in and around emacs's fill-paragraph code 2020-07-02T07:37:41Z phoe: you should be able to inspect the result of plump parsing and see how the parse result is structured internally 2020-07-02T07:38:01Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-02T07:38:58Z contrapunctus: .o(lmao, DDG results for 'lisp plump' after the GitHub result 😂) 2020-07-02T07:39:14Z momozor: Hi. How do I actually pass a `spliced values from a list` for (defun f (&rest spliced-values))? My attempt is something like this - 2020-07-02T07:39:29Z momozor: (f (values-list '(1 2 3)) 2020-07-02T07:39:41Z phoe: you don't want that 2020-07-02T07:39:45Z phoe: (apply #'f '(1 2 3)) 2020-07-02T07:39:57Z adlai: to answer my own question, since you pointed it back at me, contrapunctus, I think that a legato marking is not always there to denote phrasing; splitting a phrase should be avoided, when possible, although splitting a short non-phrasing legato that links a few notes between measures should be avoided much more thoroughly. that is as bad as this kind of hyp-henation. 2020-07-02T07:40:01Z phoe: VALUES-LIST doesn't do what you think it does 2020-07-02T07:40:01Z momozor: oh thanks 2020-07-02T07:40:26Z phoe: it is related to multiple values, which are a different concept than function application 2020-07-02T07:40:36Z phoe: (f (values-list '(1 2 3)) === (f 1) 2020-07-02T07:40:51Z phoe: since only the primary value is taken into account here. 2020-07-02T07:41:46Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-02T07:42:09Z momozor: ah I see 2020-07-02T07:42:48Z momozor: anyway, using apply works. Thanks! 2020-07-02T07:42:51Z phoe: multiple values are most useful at function boundaries, in order to avoid returning tuples 2020-07-02T07:42:51Z contrapunctus: adlai: I already see this veering into Lilypond/LaTeX levels of typesetting complexity 😁 Well, I'll certainly look into that (since it's primarily made for musicians to read) once I've got a MVP going. Thanks for sharing that concern. 2020-07-02T07:42:55Z phoe: momozor: <3 2020-07-02T07:44:22Z adlai: contrapunctus: regrettably, musicians often have opinions about two-dimensional arrangements, along with all the opinions about decibular timeseries. 2020-07-02T07:46:58Z contrapunctus: adlai: "decibular timeseries"? 🤔 2020-07-02T07:47:13Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T07:47:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-02T07:48:28Z adlai: signal, noise, and everything in between 2020-07-02T07:50:01Z hineios730393479 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T08:03:05Z epony quit (Quit: reconfigure) 2020-07-02T08:03:44Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-02T08:05:04Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-02T08:06:03Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-02T08:08:35Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-02T08:10:57Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-02T08:12:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-02T08:13:14Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-02T08:16:35Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-07-02T08:23:35Z momozor quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-02T08:24:02Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-07-02T08:29:34Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T08:33:34Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-02T08:44:45Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-02T08:48:17Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-02T08:51:06Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-02T08:56:56Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-02T08:57:29Z _roman_: Hi. Maybe someone can help me understand locked packages in sbcl. I'm trying to get GBBopen to compile but keep getting a package-locked-error 2020-07-02T08:57:48Z beach: What is the error message? 2020-07-02T08:58:19Z _roman_: i put it in a gist at https://gist.github.com/romanab/e6cd0646bc2900d6051455af1481d498 2020-07-02T08:58:35Z beach: Usually, when a package lock is tripped, that means you are trying to define something that uses a standard Common Lisp symbol. 2020-07-02T08:58:57Z phoe: _roman_: why are you redefining SBCL internal stuff? 2020-07-02T08:59:09Z _roman_: what i find confusing is that it is wrapped in a sb-ext::without-package-locks 2020-07-02T08:59:15Z phoe: oh, wait, you're not, one second... 2020-07-02T08:59:24Z phoe: lemme see what is gbbopen 2020-07-02T08:59:41Z MidHotaru quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-02T08:59:43Z phoe: what is the code inside "initiate.lisp"? 2020-07-02T09:00:14Z _roman_: just loads the system. ie a manual load file 2020-07-02T09:01:00Z phoe: https://github.com/lisp-mirror/GBBopen/blob/5518cb4de76714e4d5bc69f49cc5333d5a0249a7/source/tools/declared-numerics.lisp#L1113-L1121 2020-07-02T09:01:04Z phoe: this code is ugly and should be fixed 2020-07-02T09:01:34Z phoe: patching SBCL at runtime like that is a no-no I guess 2020-07-02T09:02:07Z epony joined #lisp 2020-07-02T09:02:15Z phoe: I guess you should make an issue about that, gbbopen seems to have some recent commits. 2020-07-02T09:02:19Z _roman_: yet if I manually put a sb-ext::without-package-locks around the form starting the module loading & the compilation, it goes thru fine 2020-07-02T09:03:41Z _roman_: i'm just curious about why sb-ext::without-package-locks works sometimes and not others 2020-07-02T09:03:52Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T09:04:18Z phoe: because sb-impl::output-float-infinity doesn't seem to exist 2020-07-02T09:04:22Z phoe: and so the lock is violated at read-time 2020-07-02T09:04:35Z phoe: this is dead code 2020-07-02T09:05:37Z phoe: which shows the exact point why patching stuff like that is harmful 2020-07-02T09:05:53Z _roman_: but wouldn't that be also the case when I explicitly introduce the sb-ext::without-package-locks? 2020-07-02T09:05:55Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-02T09:06:11Z phoe: what is your sbcl version? 2020-07-02T09:06:28Z phoe: that's confusing to me, yes; it should also be like that in the repl 2020-07-02T09:07:40Z phoe: https://pastebin.com/vGSah1aG 2020-07-02T09:07:41Z _roman_: This is SBCL 2.0.4 2020-07-02T09:07:42Z phoe: also works in the REPL 2020-07-02T09:07:52Z phoe: uh, works - errors I mean 2020-07-02T09:09:34Z _roman_: yes 2020-07-02T09:09:50Z phoe: if you do (without-package-locks ...) in the repl though, then the package is already unlocked by the time the file is read 2020-07-02T09:09:56Z phoe: so no error happens 2020-07-02T09:10:07Z phoe: I suggest to file an issue to have that dead code removed. 2020-07-02T09:11:49Z _roman_: ok. seems to be quiet since 2016 though 2020-07-02T09:12:52Z phoe: https://github.com/lisp-mirror/GBBopen has a relatively fresh commit 2020-07-02T09:13:22Z phoe: but, yes, that code seems unmaintained 2020-07-02T09:17:46Z _roman_: Thanks. I'm still not clear in my own head about the locks given that the #+sbcl conditionalization ought to activate the no locking before the defun (no?) 2020-07-02T09:18:28Z phoe: not really 2020-07-02T09:18:42Z phoe: #+sbcl causes the form to appear there only for SBCL 2020-07-02T09:18:53Z phoe: but then it tries to read "sb-impl::something" 2020-07-02T09:19:02Z phoe: the symbol does not exist there, so it must be interned 2020-07-02T09:19:09Z phoe: the act of interning trips the package lock 2020-07-02T09:19:12Z phoe: an error is signaled 2020-07-02T09:19:28Z phoe: all of this before sb-ext:without-package-locks is even compiled in 2020-07-02T09:19:35Z phoe: and before it has a chance to execute 2020-07-02T09:20:18Z _roman_: I see 2020-07-02T09:21:33Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-02T09:21:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-02T09:22:50Z _roman_: a matter of timing so to speak 2020-07-02T09:22:56Z phoe: yesssss 2020-07-02T09:23:17Z phoe: does anyone have code for printing arbitrary hex grids as ASCII-art to console? 2020-07-02T09:23:18Z cg505 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2020-07-02T09:25:10Z cg505 joined #lisp 2020-07-02T09:26:36Z _roman_: While looking at this, I came across "12.1.2 Implementation Packages" in the sbcl manual. Never heard of them nor could find any other documentation on them. Are they just a convention for code separation or something more? Any pointers where I might find more info? 2020-07-02T09:27:01Z beach: The former. 2020-07-02T09:27:07Z phoe: that's a SBCL thing 2020-07-02T09:27:16Z beach: It is just a way to divide the code into modules. 2020-07-02T09:27:29Z _roman_: ok 2020-07-02T09:27:37Z _roman_: thanks 2020-07-02T09:27:48Z beach: Sure. 2020-07-02T09:42:55Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-02T09:44:04Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-02T09:45:20Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-07-02T09:48:58Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-02T09:49:38Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-02T09:49:46Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-02T09:54:02Z freshpassport quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2020-07-02T09:54:31Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-02T09:54:44Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-02T10:04:04Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2020-07-02T10:05:01Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-02T10:06:51Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed 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2020-07-02T13:33:36Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-02T13:34:56Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-02T13:36:11Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-02T13:38:12Z dlowe: CLX question - If I received a window ID from xlib:get-property, how can I convert that to a window so I can get its property? 2020-07-02T13:40:38Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-02T13:40:40Z dlowe: also wow, CLX is copyright 1987 by Texas Instruments 2020-07-02T13:41:01Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-02T13:42:34Z beach: dlowe: If I were you, I would ask the nice people in #clim. They work a lot with CLX. 2020-07-02T13:43:20Z beach: dlowe: And, yes, I would very much like to see a new version of CLX, or perhaps something entirely different that uses the xrender extension exclusively. Either way, something way more CLOS-y. 2020-07-02T13:45:05Z dlowe: yeah, I just think it's interesting that TI did it. I never would have guessed. 2020-07-02T13:45:17Z beach: Oh, I see. 2020-07-02T13:45:27Z dlowe: also that's it's old :) 2020-07-02T13:45:58Z beach: Yeah, and the reason it does not use generic functions and standard classes is that it predates the ANSI Common Lisp standard. 2020-07-02T13:46:28Z dlowe: ah, that makes sense. 2020-07-02T13:46:46Z dlowe: it would be quite the job to translate between models 2020-07-02T13:47:22Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-02T13:47:30Z tich joined #lisp 2020-07-02T13:47:37Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-02T13:48:01Z beach: "models"? xrender and X core? 2020-07-02T13:49:25Z dlowe: clx-classes and clos 2020-07-02T13:49:40Z beach: Ah, I see. Yes, a bit. 2020-07-02T13:49:42Z dlowe: the clx model adheres pretty closely to its xlib roots 2020-07-02T13:49:50Z tich: I would like to loop through a list collecting say the first 3 elements how do i do that 2020-07-02T13:49:53Z efm joined #lisp 2020-07-02T13:50:05Z phoe: tich: (subseq list 0 3) 2020-07-02T13:50:15Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-02T13:50:24Z dlowe: tich: you might be interested in #clschool 2020-07-02T13:50:30Z phoe: (subseq '(a b c d e f g h) 0 3) ;=> (A B C) 2020-07-02T13:52:05Z freshpassport joined #lisp 2020-07-02T13:54:31Z _death: the ANSI committee had graphics/windowing groups and there were discussions about CLOSifying CLX, and about CLUE as well 2020-07-02T13:54:57Z tich: My question was not clear enough I would like to go through a list in 3s (for-each-tripple (i j k) in '(a b c d e f g) collect (list i j k) ) => ((a b c) (d e f) g) 2020-07-02T13:55:14Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-02T13:55:35Z phoe: tich: collecting the G at the end will be tricky 2020-07-02T13:55:52Z jackdaniel: one thing to keep in mind is that xlib has the implementation which defines CLOS classes too 2020-07-02T13:56:06Z jackdaniel: define-clx-class defines either structures or standard classes depending on a build-time flag 2020-07-02T13:56:17Z beach: Oh, I had no idea. 2020-07-02T13:56:20Z beach: Interesting. 2020-07-02T13:56:34Z grewal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-02T13:56:41Z phoe: you can (loop for (x y z) on list by #'cdddr collect (list x y z)) 2020-07-02T13:56:43Z grewal joined #lisp 2020-07-02T13:56:48Z phoe: but that will return ((A B C) (D E F) (G NIL NIL)) 2020-07-02T13:57:07Z phoe: so there needs to be a little bit of conditionalization to avoid these last NILs 2020-07-02T14:00:26Z tich: phoe:thank you 2020-07-02T14:01:22Z tich: phoe:so the by clause has to be a function and not an integer? 2020-07-02T14:01:42Z phoe: tich: if you are performing list iteration, it must be a list function 2020-07-02T14:01:52Z phoe: a numeric BY is there if you do numeric iteration 2020-07-02T14:02:03Z phoe: e.g. (loop for x from 0 by 5 ...) 2020-07-02T14:02:26Z _death: you can use nthcdr 2020-07-02T14:03:07Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T14:07:52Z freshpassport quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-07-02T14:09:00Z _death: for example https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1937#1937 2020-07-02T14:11:10Z _death: though it would be prettier to (loop ... for sublist = list then (nthcdr n sublist) ...) 2020-07-02T14:16:24Z theseb joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:16:28Z tich: _death:thank you for the code snippet 2020-07-02T14:19:06Z pve: Hi, are there any in-depth tutorials or other resources that cover designing an interface specifically with clos features in mind? 2020-07-02T14:19:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-02T14:19:25Z pve: uh, module interfaces that is, not user interfaces 2020-07-02T14:19:39Z phoe: http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf 2020-07-02T14:19:46Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:19:53Z phoe: plus a shameless plug: https://github.com/phoe/protest/ 2020-07-02T14:20:06Z _death: the AMOP book and the CLIM spec are good examples 2020-07-02T14:21:05Z pve: ok, lots of good stuff, thanks 2020-07-02T14:21:18Z grewal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-02T14:22:49Z grewal joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:26:34Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:26:34Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T14:27:38Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:27:46Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-02T14:28:23Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-02T14:28:56Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:30:04Z simendsjo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-02T14:30:10Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:37:10Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-02T14:39:04Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:39:44Z pve: Do you guys start by carefully defining your interfaces, or do you just hack away and later flesh out the interfaces? 2020-07-02T14:39:59Z phoe: I do both at the same time 2020-07-02T14:40:19Z phoe: it's okay to have a rough sketch of the interface, but most of the time it changes anyway during the implementation 2020-07-02T14:40:31Z phoe: unless you already have an interface that you build against, at which point the question is moot 2020-07-02T14:40:35Z pve: sure 2020-07-02T14:41:47Z beach: Also, I often find myself wanting a completely new version of some library I wrote in the past. And then I have a much better idea of the protocol I want to implement. 2020-07-02T14:41:55Z beach: But yeah, the first time around, it is incremental. 2020-07-02T14:42:06Z pve: ok, makes sense 2020-07-02T14:42:35Z beach: pve: Feel free to expose your ideas for protocols here. 2020-07-02T14:43:42Z pve: beach: thanks, will do.. don't really have anything concrete at this point though 2020-07-02T14:43:45Z beach: pve: As _death pointed out, the CLIM specification is an excellent example of how to design protocols. 2020-07-02T14:43:50Z MidHotaru joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:44:22Z beach: pve: I understand. But I assume you are working with some project in mind? 2020-07-02T14:45:16Z simendsjo joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:45:40Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-02T14:45:44Z pve: I'm working on my toy language, and while the compiler works (from the language to CL, right now), the internals are kind of hacky and probably wrong from a textbook perspective 2020-07-02T14:46:03Z beach: I see. 2020-07-02T14:46:30Z pve: I'd like to clean it up, but need to get a better idea of how I could go about it 2020-07-02T14:47:17Z beach: This is probably way too complex, but perhaps you want to have a quick glance at what we do in Cleavir. We read CSTs using Eclector, then translate them to ASTs, then to HIR. 2020-07-02T14:47:44Z pve: and I feel better-defined interfaces would be a good start 2020-07-02T14:47:55Z pve: hmm can't hurt to have a look 2020-07-02T14:48:09Z beach: Check SICL/Code/Cleavir2/... 2020-07-02T14:48:15Z beach: There is even documentation. :) 2020-07-02T14:50:01Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T14:51:56Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:52:23Z pve: right now I piggy-back on the lisp reader to get a list of tokens which are then parsed into an AST, the AST is then used to emit CL code 2020-07-02T14:52:42Z beach: OK. 2020-07-02T14:52:49Z pve: I wanted to be able to mix CL with my language and that felt like the easiest way to get started 2020-07-02T14:53:17Z beach: I vividly recommend you use Eclector if you are reading something that looks a bit like Lisp. 2020-07-02T14:53:25Z beach: It is highly configurable. 2020-07-02T14:53:59Z pve: I've been eying it from a distance 2020-07-02T14:54:09Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:54:21Z pve: waiting to make the leap 2020-07-02T14:54:39Z beach: Eclector also comes with great documentation. 2020-07-02T14:54:52Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:55:01Z pve: it looks like lisp in the sense that almost everything is a lisp form, besides that, it looks like smalltalk 2020-07-02T14:55:27Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-02T14:55:51Z beach: So, Eclector will let you intercept things like symbol creation, so that you don't need to have the right packages already defined in your Common Lisp system. 2020-07-02T14:56:07Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-02T14:56:21Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:56:23Z pve: not sure if "form" is the right term, I mean symbols, numbers, strings etc just as they are written in lisp 2020-07-02T14:56:37Z beach: I see. 2020-07-02T14:57:47Z alfonsox joined #lisp 2020-07-02T14:57:50Z pve: I will definitely see if I could make use of Eclector 2020-07-02T14:58:15Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-02T14:59:31Z beach: In fact, it is high time we stamp out implementation-specific readers. :) 2020-07-02T15:00:55Z beach: pve: Speaking of which, Eclector is another excellent example of how to design CLOS protocols. 2020-07-02T15:01:26Z mankaev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-02T15:01:32Z mankaev__ joined #lisp 2020-07-02T15:01:59Z pve: ok, that's good to know 2020-07-02T15:02:10Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-02T15:04:15Z splittist: I should look again, but what led me not to use Eclector in a particular case was the vast array of (quite illuminating, but not so helpful for that case) errors that could be signalled. 2020-07-02T15:04:46Z splittist: Of course, at the time I hadn't read the book on CL's condition system... 2020-07-02T15:07:14Z q-u-a-n2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-02T15:07:21Z q-u-a-n21 joined #lisp 2020-07-02T15:09:31Z tich quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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Seems like when I dump from an image I've already dumped, the command line arguments globals are blank, or at least, frozen as of whenever the first image was made 2020-07-02T17:17:48Z sjl: rumbler31_: possibly relevant https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/177 2020-07-02T17:18:01Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-02T17:19:46Z rumbler31_: not quite the same, in my case, unprocessed command line arguments variable is blank, but the full list is available 2020-07-02T17:21:53Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-02T17:27:35Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-02T17:29:11Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-02T17:29:46Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-02T17:33:49Z Kabriel_: Is there a reason that sb-posix:chdir and uiop:chdir do not modify *default-pathname-defaults*? 2020-07-02T17:39:29Z mason joined #lisp 2020-07-02T17:41:20Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-02T17:41:20Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-02T17:41:20Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-02T17:41:58Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-02T17:45:47Z _death: why would they? there is no expectation that *d-p-d* and posix working directory be kept in sync.. 2020-07-02T17:49:37Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-02T17:50:01Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2020-07-02T17:50:14Z papachan: how i can rewrite this using composing ? http://sprunge.us/qDTt9z 2020-07-02T17:51:35Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-02T17:53:36Z MidHotaru quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-02T17:55:00Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-02T17:59:58Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-02T18:01:06Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 210 seconds.) 2020-07-02T18:01:55Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-02T18:02:26Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-02T18:06:22Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T18:08:34Z Dzener quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-02T18:15:06Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-02T18:15:07Z msk joined #lisp 2020-07-02T18:15:32Z 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closed the connection) 2020-07-03T03:15:19Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-07-03T03:29:15Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-03T03:33:27Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T03:46:16Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-03T03:46:26Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-03T03:55:22Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T03:57:52Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-03T03:59:16Z cosimone_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T04:01:24Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-03T04:03:07Z KaiLikesLinux: Morning, beach 2020-07-03T04:03:07Z minion: KaiLikesLinux, memo from phoe: like that, for instance 2020-07-03T04:03:46Z KaiLikesLinux: minion memo phoe what? 2020-07-03T04:04:43Z KaiLikesLinux: minion: memo for phoe: Like what??? 2020-07-03T04:04:43Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell phoe when he/she/it next speaks. 2020-07-03T04:05:47Z cosimone_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T04:09:06Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-07-03T04:12:27Z cosimone_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-03T04:12:44Z cosimone_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T04:23:39Z beach: KaiLikesLinux: phoe was just teaching you how to make minion give you a memo. You can look at the channel logs if you like. 2020-07-03T04:24:34Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T04:26:27Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-03T04:30:49Z KaiLikesLinux: beach: Ironic, as I figured it out without that xd 2020-07-03T04:31:26Z beach: Oh well. 2020-07-03T04:37:46Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-03T04:45:41Z mrcom joined #lisp 2020-07-03T04:46:36Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T04:46:48Z cosimone_ is now known as cosimone 2020-07-03T04:47:04Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-03T04:51:12Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-03T04:57:23Z KaiLikesLinux left #lisp 2020-07-03T05:02:41Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-03T05:04:12Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-03T05:22:13Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-03T05:22:23Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T05:25:00Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-07-03T05:31:22Z OpenZen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T05:35:22Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-03T05:44:41Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T05:49:02Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T05:51:16Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T05:51:46Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-03T05:52:01Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-03T05:52:08Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-07-03T05:53:28Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T05:56:20Z kopiyka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T05:56:46Z kopiyka joined #lisp 2020-07-03T05:58:23Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:02:13Z ak5 joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:02:23Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-03T06:02:43Z ak5 quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-03T06:02:44Z roze joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:03:02Z ak5 joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:03:03Z roze quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-03T06:03:36Z roze joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:03:47Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:04:30Z bsd4me quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T06:06:49Z mankaev__ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:07:17Z freshpassport quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-07-03T06:10:18Z simendsjo joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:11:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T06:11:58Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:12:13Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T06:14:56Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:16:49Z slyrus__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T06:18:49Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T06:23:19Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:30:02Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:32:15Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T06:33:35Z vegai joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:34:46Z orivej_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-03T06:36:06Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:38:36Z phoe: oh well 2020-07-03T06:38:37Z minion: phoe, memo from KaiLikesLinux: Like what??? 2020-07-03T06:38:42Z phoe: that's good, I suppose! 2020-07-03T06:38:52Z beach: Hey phoe. 2020-07-03T06:39:57Z phoe: hey hi 2020-07-03T06:41:08Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:42:12Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:42:33Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T06:45:26Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:46:14Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T06:49:49Z insomnyuk joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:50:00Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:50:26Z v3ga joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:53:39Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:54:07Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:55:13Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:55:13Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-03T06:55:13Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-03T06:58:53Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-07-03T07:01:26Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-03T07:03:40Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-03T07:04:09Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-03T07:04:15Z julio_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T07:09:10Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T07:09:47Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T07:18:19Z tich joined #lisp 2020-07-03T07:18:56Z roze quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-03T07:32:32Z KaiLikesLinux joined #lisp 2020-07-03T07:35:56Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-03T07:52:25Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-03T07:58:32Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-03T08:02:26Z msk__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-03T08:02:56Z pve: Morning, in the SICL repository, is the "Cleavir2" directory a rewrite of "Cleavir"? So the "Cleavir" dir can be more or less ignored? 2020-07-03T08:05:31Z KaiLikesLinux: mornin 2020-07-03T08:08:01Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T08:13:38Z beach: pve: Let's hope so. Let me explain a bit... 2020-07-03T08:14:14Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T08:14:17Z beach: Clasp needed a better compiler, so drmeister wanted to use Cleavir for that, but Cleavir wasn't really ready at the time. Still isn't quite ready. 2020-07-03T08:15:01Z beach: So for SICL, I needed to be able to modify Cleavir to adapt it to what SICL needs, and to correct some mistakes I made in Cleavir (v1). 2020-07-03T08:15:12Z beach: But I couldn't really do that without breaking Clasp. 2020-07-03T08:15:23Z beach: So I made Cleavir version 2. 2020-07-03T08:15:37Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-07-03T08:15:42Z pve: ok, thanks, I understand now 2020-07-03T08:15:56Z beach: But now, Clasp needs better performance, so Bike and karlosz are working on Cleavir 1 to incorporate some optimizations that are not yet in Cleavir 2. 2020-07-03T08:16:17Z pve: just looking at the AST for now 2020-07-03T08:16:27Z beach: I don't want them yet in Cleavir 2 because I want to debug as little code as possible while I am working on SICL bootstrapping. 2020-07-03T08:16:41Z beach: Cleavir2 is probably better for you then. 2020-07-03T08:17:29Z pve: ok, great! 2020-07-03T08:26:32Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-03T08:27:51Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-07-03T08:30:01Z simendsjo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T08:30:08Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-03T08:32:48Z wxie1 joined #lisp 2020-07-03T08:33:19Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T08:33:20Z wxie1 is now known as wxie 2020-07-03T08:42:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-07-03T08:45:31Z pve: beach: (silly question) when you want to transform your AST into the next representation, do you walk the tree using the "children" function, or by directly recursing down each node's reader functions? 2020-07-03T08:45:44Z pve: or is "children" used only for visualization etc 2020-07-03T08:46:20Z pve: I ask because I don't have a children function, and now I'm wondering if I'm doing something the hard way 2020-07-03T08:47:19Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T08:47:44Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-03T08:47:46Z beach: Usually, the transformation uses the specific accessors. 2020-07-03T08:47:58Z pve: alright 2020-07-03T08:48:05Z beach: CHILDREN is for when you don't really care what the AST is doing. 2020-07-03T08:48:12Z beach: Visualization is one such situation, yes. 2020-07-03T08:50:18Z KaiLikesLinux quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-03T08:56:20Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T08:57:28Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T08:57:45Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-03T08:58:19Z fanta1 joined #lisp 2020-07-03T09:05:40Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T09:05:45Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T09:06:49Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-03T09:07:51Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-03T09:11:14Z _roman_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2020-07-03T09:18:01Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T09:20:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T09:22:12Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T09:22:43Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-03T09:26:50Z orivej_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-03T09:28:11Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T09:28:46Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-07-03T09:32:42Z aap_ is now known as aap 2020-07-03T09:36:09Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T09:36:11Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-03T09:36:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T09:41:31Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T09:42:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-07-03T09:47:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T09:49:22Z oxum_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-03T09:51:28Z funnel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T09:54:01Z funnel joined #lisp 2020-07-03T09:54:42Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-03T09:55:01Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T09:58:23Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-03T09:59:46Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:03:49Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:06:39Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:09:17Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:14:42Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:16:33Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:18:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:21:59Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:22:11Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:24:06Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:24:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:25:03Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:25:42Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:25:55Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-03T10:26:43Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:27:03Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:27:30Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:29:52Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:30:01Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-07-03T10:30:25Z simendsjo joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:32:19Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:32:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:33:02Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:33:13Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:33:44Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-03T10:40:01Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:40:55Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:42:08Z KaiLikesLinux joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:43:21Z MidHotaru joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:48:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T10:48:22Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:49:24Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:50:02Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:50:12Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:51:49Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:54:58Z jmercouris: I'm trying to do the following: http://dpaste.com/00C4P0G 2020-07-03T10:55:05Z jmercouris: the linke that doesn't work is: do (setf index (term-count sentence word))) 2020-07-03T10:55:15Z jmercouris: is the only way to set the value of an array with the index? 2020-07-03T10:55:42Z jmercouris: I guess arrays are arrays regardless of the language huh :-D 2020-07-03T10:57:16Z jackdaniel: "index" is not a pointer to the array cell 2020-07-03T10:57:20Z mfiano: index is a variable binding of the value. It is not a place to be set in this context 2020-07-03T10:57:36Z jmercouris: that's too bad, I assume it just grabs the value 2020-07-03T10:57:37Z jmercouris: OK 2020-07-03T10:57:42Z jackdaniel: even original locatives as defined on symbolics lisp machines didn't work with arrays that way 2020-07-03T10:58:00Z jmercouris: so I'll have to use AREF then, correct? 2020-07-03T10:58:09Z beach: jmercouris: Places are not first-class objects in Common Lisp. 2020-07-03T10:58:09Z jmercouris: and I'll have to have another clause to keep a track of the index 2020-07-03T10:58:14Z jackdaniel: you may do (make-array (length-dictionary) :initial-contents dictionary) 2020-07-03T10:58:29Z jackdaniel: s/length-dictionary/length dictionary/ 2020-07-03T10:58:58Z jackdaniel: or, if you need to call a function, you may call map-into 2020-07-03T10:59:11Z jmercouris: I thought about that 2020-07-03T10:59:17Z jmercouris: I was just thinking about map, but I prefer loop 2020-07-03T10:59:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:59:24Z jmercouris: at least in this case 2020-07-03T10:59:51Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-03T10:59:57Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:00:05Z jackdaniel: then use aref (or svref, or row-major-aref) 2020-07-03T11:00:51Z jmercouris: yeah, I've replaced it with: do (setf (aref vector-form index) (term-count sentence word))) 2020-07-03T11:01:01Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:01:08Z jmercouris: and then added the clause for index from 0 to (length vector-form) 2020-07-03T11:02:03Z mfiano: That's not correct 2020-07-03T11:02:18Z jmercouris: how come? 2020-07-03T11:02:19Z mfiano: Use "for index below (length vector form)" 2020-07-03T11:02:22Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/30MTJAW 2020-07-03T11:02:41Z jmercouris: what is "below"? 2020-07-03T11:02:54Z jackdaniel: http://l1sp.org/search?q=below 2020-07-03T11:03:10Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:03:29Z jmercouris: hm, i think it is correct 2020-07-03T11:03:32Z jmercouris: because I am using length 2020-07-03T11:04:04Z mfiano: (loop :for i :to (length (vector 1 2 3)) :collect i) ; => (0 1 2 3) 2020-07-03T11:04:07Z mfiano: (loop :for i :below (length (vector 1 2 3)) :collect i) ;=> (0 1 2) 2020-07-03T11:04:52Z jackdaniel: (aref #(1 2 3) 3) ; => 4 2020-07-03T11:05:01Z jmercouris: ah, I see 2020-07-03T11:05:12Z jmercouris: off by 1 joy 2020-07-03T11:05:19Z jackdaniel: (on VICL, that is "value inferring common lisp") 2020-07-03T11:05:42Z ebrasca: jmercouris: ":to n" is equal to ":below (1- n)" 2020-07-03T11:05:58Z jackdaniel: hm, better would be (aref #(0 1 2) 3) ;4 :) 2020-07-03T11:06:14Z ebrasca: sory ":to (1- n)" is equal to ":below n" 2020-07-03T11:06:27Z jmercouris: 1 2020-07-03T11:06:46Z mfiano: and "from 0" is implied in this context, un-needed if you want to condense it a bit 2020-07-03T11:07:23Z jmercouris: final clause form: for index from 0 upto (length vector-form) 2020-07-03T11:07:30Z jmercouris: I'll leave the "from 0" for explicitness sake 2020-07-03T11:07:52Z jackdaniel: I don't know where did you take this final clause form 2020-07-03T11:08:04Z jackdaniel: where you explicitly repeat your error from before :) 2020-07-03T11:08:14Z jmercouris: I use upto, it says it is analogous to below 2020-07-03T11:08:20Z mfiano: analogous 2020-07-03T11:08:33Z jmercouris: son of a 2020-07-03T11:08:46Z jmercouris: yes 2020-07-03T11:09:41Z ebrasca: jmercouris: I see you are having fun! 2020-07-03T11:10:59Z jmercouris: lol, good times today indeed 2020-07-03T11:11:28Z jmercouris: I'm doing some eigenvector centrality calculations, and so I decided to use arrays instead of lists for performance 2020-07-03T11:11:30Z jmercouris: my first time using arrays in lisp 2020-07-03T11:11:56Z jackdaniel: (and loop maybe?) 2020-07-03T11:12:41Z jmercouris: no 2020-07-03T11:12:54Z jackdaniel: n.b you may create an anaphoric macro 2020-07-03T11:13:02Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:13:12Z jackdaniel: s/anaphoric/symbol/, which captures the loop iterating variable 2020-07-03T11:13:28Z jackdaniel: then (setf index foo) will expand to (setf (aref foobar index) foo) 2020-07-03T11:13:42Z ebrasca: jmercouris: Try this (loop :for item-n :across (vector 0 1 2 3 4) :do (print item-n)) 2020-07-03T11:14:09Z jackdaniel: (symbol-macrolet ((index `(aref array i))) (loop for i below (length vector) do (setf index (bla)))) 2020-07-03T11:16:10Z jmercouris: hm, an interesting idea 2020-07-03T11:16:13Z jackdaniel: that way you have a third-class place 2020-07-03T11:16:16Z mfiano: Well you don't want the quote there but yeah 2020-07-03T11:17:08Z jackdaniel: right, thanks for the correction mfiano 2020-07-03T11:17:37Z jackdaniel: that said it is only a fun way to play with things, don't do that 2020-07-03T11:17:58Z phoe: jackdaniel: I was about to mention that your irony levels are high today 2020-07-03T11:18:05Z jackdaniel: code will be harder to read and benefits are literally 0 from using that 2020-07-03T11:18:23Z jmercouris: yeah, I didn't say I would do it 2020-07-03T11:18:30Z jmercouris: I just said it was an interesting idea 2020-07-03T11:18:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T11:19:03Z jmercouris: I could also embed an emulator within an flet and make it perform the operations :-D 2020-07-03T11:19:03Z jmercouris: an interesting idea, but I don't think I'm going to do it 2020-07-03T11:19:04Z jackdaniel: phoe: I like to think about myself as a person who is not ironic at all 2020-07-03T11:19:06Z phoe: I'd go (loop for word in dictionary for i from 0 do (setf (aref vector-form i) ...)) 2020-07-03T11:19:07Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:19:58Z phoe: or just (coerce 'dictionary 'vector) since it seems equivalent? 2020-07-03T11:20:27Z phoe: this code seems to turn (foo bar baz) info #(foo bar baz) and COERCE is good for that 2020-07-03T11:22:51Z mfiano: That would be good too, but I suspect he will be refactoring later to a specialized array since he is after performance 2020-07-03T11:23:06Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T11:23:14Z phoe: uh I mean (coerce dictionary 'vector) 2020-07-03T11:23:43Z phoe: or (coerce dictionary '(vector element-type)) for specialization 2020-07-03T11:24:01Z phoe: where ELEMENT-TYPE is your element type 2020-07-03T11:24:39Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T11:24:54Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T11:25:36Z phoe: still, even a simple array will give a speed boost when compared to long lists 2020-07-03T11:26:31Z montxero joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:28:18Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:28:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T11:29:28Z jackdaniel: that depends on how you access them 2020-07-03T11:29:55Z jackdaniel: if you butcher arrays to append them and access them only sequentially, then array won't buy you a dim 2020-07-03T11:30:02Z phoe: yes, linear scanning over lists is going to be fast 2020-07-03T11:30:13Z phoe: but random access will be cheaper for arrays 2020-07-03T11:30:34Z jackdaniel: there are other things to consider, that's why I say that it all depends 2020-07-03T11:30:52Z jackdaniel: i.e list may hold any type of elements, while with specialized arrays you may inline some operations 2020-07-03T11:31:01Z jackdaniel: (that is, compiler may) 2020-07-03T11:31:16Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T11:31:32Z jackdaniel: also it is not given that sequential access to a list will be faster 2020-07-03T11:31:56Z jackdaniel: i.e for array you know its length, so you don't have to check whether the cdr is nil 2020-07-03T11:32:22Z ebrasca: Are there alternatives to multiple-value-bind ? 2020-07-03T11:32:23Z jackdaniel dives back to presentation type predicates in CLIM 2020-07-03T11:32:41Z jackdaniel: s/to/in/ 2020-07-03T11:32:41Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T11:33:01Z Xach joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:33:09Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:33:35Z phoe: ebrasca: why do you ask? 2020-07-03T11:34:02Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-03T11:34:25Z White_Flame: ebrasca: there's multiple-value-list, to grab them all into 1 vallue 2020-07-03T11:34:29Z White_Flame: *value 2020-07-03T11:35:48Z ebrasca: I have someting like this http://ix.io/2qLI , I don't like nesting multiple-value-binds . 2020-07-03T11:35:53Z White_Flame: jackdaniel: arrays need to do a check against the length every iteration, though. likely the same cost 2020-07-03T11:36:08Z White_Flame: plus an additional variable compared to the list 2020-07-03T11:36:09Z mfiano: There are times when linearly accessing an array can be faster than the same size list 2020-07-03T11:36:13Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: my point is that there are not guarantees what is faster 2020-07-03T11:36:18Z phoe: ebrasca: there's no standard way around that. 2020-07-03T11:36:47Z phoe: there are utilities like bind-star that offer different syntax for that, but they aren't standard 2020-07-03T11:36:51Z White_Flame: ebrasca: write your own multiple-multiple-value-bind ;) 2020-07-03T11:37:33Z ebrasca: White_Flame: What if I end neding multiple-multiple-multiple-value-bind ? 2020-07-03T11:37:39Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-03T11:38:01Z jackdaniel: I don't recommend it, but you may use uiop's nest, you won't reduce number of forms but you will reduce nesting 2020-07-03T11:39:31Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: Ok, I just focus making read-byte/sequence , write-byte/sequence for block based FSs. 2020-07-03T11:39:46Z mfiano: golden-utils and serapeum have MVLET and MVLET* for that, which allows you to use m-v-b with a LET-like syntax, which means it can be used to intersperse normal LET bindings in the mix 2020-07-03T11:40:57Z phoe: ebrasca: a hack is to do something like (destructuring-bind (a b c d e f) (multiple-value-call #'list (floor 1 2) (floor 3 4) (floor 5 6)) ...) 2020-07-03T11:41:00Z phoe: but that is a hack 2020-07-03T11:41:34Z ebrasca: This is my monster http://ix.io/2qLP 2020-07-03T11:41:55Z phoe: there's just two nested m-v-b there 2020-07-03T11:42:08Z montxero quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-03T11:42:20Z phoe: I was expecting 4+ if you say it's a monster 2020-07-03T11:42:44Z mfiano: (mvlet ((one two (values 1 2)) (three four (values 3 4)) (five 5)) (list one two three four five)) ; => (1 2 3 4 5) 2020-07-03T11:42:52Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:43:33Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:44:23Z jackdaniel: that was a monster: https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/blob/master/Core/clim-core/presentations/translators.lisp#L373 :) 2020-07-03T11:44:44Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:44:50Z jackdaniel: well, only 5-level nest, but still it looked ugly 2020-07-03T11:45:33Z phoe: hah 2020-07-03T11:46:03Z mfiano: I should've probably done something similar here :) https://github.com/mfiano/algae/blob/master/src/noise/perlin-improved-4d.lisp#L48-L87 2020-07-03T11:46:21Z phoe: haha 2020-07-03T11:46:24Z jackdaniel: all I understand is "u lerp fs" 2020-07-03T11:46:39Z jackdaniel: and it is probably some kind of insult 2020-07-03T11:46:51Z mfiano: :) 2020-07-03T11:48:53Z mfiano: 27-30 is an example of MVLET saving 4 levels of nesting btw 2020-07-03T11:49:21Z mfiano: The rest are just normal let bindings shoved into that, because 1 return value is no different :) 2020-07-03T11:49:40Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T11:49:40Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T11:52:18Z Codaraxis_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-03T11:52:57Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-07-03T11:53:21Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:57:28Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-03T11:57:52Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:58:14Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T11:58:24Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T11:58:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T11:59:05Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:00:32Z ebrasca: mfiano: I can't find documentation for golden-utils. 2020-07-03T12:02:08Z mfiano: Most functions have docstrings 2020-07-03T12:02:10Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T12:02:17Z ebrasca: maybe better name is multiple-value-let 2020-07-03T12:02:35Z phoe: that's what mvlet stands for 2020-07-03T12:02:39Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:02:40Z mfiano: A few libraries use mvlet for concision, and so does golden-utils 2020-07-03T12:02:49Z phoe: except that I guess mfiano found the "multiple-value-" prefix too long 2020-07-03T12:03:41Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T12:03:59Z mfiano: Not really. I prefer descriptive names when appropriate. This was more about convention, though I do use that a fair bit so concision helps. 2020-07-03T12:04:54Z ebrasca: Wha I don't like about lisp is its lack of consistency. 2020-07-03T12:05:09Z ebrasca: What I don't like about lisp is its lack of consistency. 2020-07-03T12:05:40Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T12:05:47Z shka_: yeah 2020-07-03T12:05:54Z phoe: that's the price we pay for having arbitrary syntax 2020-07-03T12:06:24Z mfiano: Well it is a language designed to bring multiple Lisps together, but fortunately, they gave us macros so it's a non-issue. 2020-07-03T12:06:25Z ebrasca: whey sometimes it is "place item" and others "item place" 2020-07-03T12:06:39Z phoe: this one is also a terrible thing 2020-07-03T12:06:54Z phoe: and I hope the Hypothetical Future Revision fixes it up in some way 2020-07-03T12:07:45Z shka_: HOPE 2020-07-03T12:07:46Z phoe: (hopefully via (place item) to make these consistent with their -F versions) 2020-07-03T12:07:48Z shka_: what a funny idea :D 2020-07-03T12:07:59Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-07-03T12:08:03Z phoe: shka_: okay, I'm going to write that revision myself and gain a whole of three users 2020-07-03T12:08:04Z ebrasca: I like "place item" like defvar . 2020-07-03T12:08:08Z simendsj` joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:08:12Z phoe: one of which is my CI environment 2020-07-03T12:08:25Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:08:31Z ebrasca: of like (setf place item) 2020-07-03T12:08:32Z phoe: and the others are me and some random Internet person 2020-07-03T12:09:49Z simendsjo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T12:10:31Z mfiano: Well Lisp is flexible. There will always be inconsistencies in the library space. 2020-07-03T12:11:11Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:11:20Z mfiano: I wouldn't consider that a bad thing. After all, code is a projection of ones' own thought processes. It doesn't make sense that a language that provides the power that Lisp does produce code that will be molded for everyone. 2020-07-03T12:11:29Z ebrasca: How hard can it be to make cl consistent? 2020-07-03T12:12:17Z jackdaniel: we should teach minion a catchphrase spoken when someone talks about reforming the common lisp standard :) 2020-07-03T12:12:27Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-03T12:12:53Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:13:09Z shka_: well, beach has this well specified common lisp project going on 2020-07-03T12:13:18Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-03T12:13:18Z jackdaniel: like: "it is easy, just take pen and sketch corrections" 2020-07-03T12:13:39Z ebrasca: I am going to talk about reforming cl againg. 2020-07-03T12:13:49Z phoe: ebrasca: it's easy 2020-07-03T12:13:52Z shka_: anything that goes further then this is just a pipe dream 2020-07-03T12:13:56Z phoe: the hard thing is to get everyone to use it 2020-07-03T12:14:03Z mfiano: I would rather have more choices for conforming implementations than to split the community even more. 2020-07-03T12:14:11Z phoe: and by "hard" I mean what shka_ and mfiano said 2020-07-03T12:14:13Z mankaev__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T12:14:13Z HighMemoryDaemon joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:14:19Z HighMemoryDaemon left #lisp 2020-07-03T12:14:25Z jackdaniel: phoe: you've ruined it. you should have make the second sentence: "just take the pen and sketch corrections" ;) 2020-07-03T12:14:37Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:14:49Z ym quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-03T12:14:50Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-03T12:15:17Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T12:15:17Z HighMemoryDaemon joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:16:29Z ebrasca is thinking about word conquest and forcing his cl vision on all other persons. 2020-07-03T12:16:32Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T12:16:46Z shka_: ONE VISION, ONE STANDARD 2020-07-03T12:17:14Z shka_: no, sorry guys, i just can't take this seriously ;-) 2020-07-03T12:17:25Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:19:11Z montxero joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:22:18Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:27:39Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-03T12:28:40Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:28:43Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:29:15Z beach: *sigh* 2020-07-03T12:32:04Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:33:13Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:34:14Z phoe: ebrasca: or else what 2020-07-03T12:35:28Z enrio joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:37:37Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T12:37:48Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:39:22Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T12:41:28Z ebrasca: phoe: No more food for you. 2020-07-03T12:42:54Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T12:45:42Z ebrasca: phoe: Hoe are you going? 2020-07-03T12:46:02Z ebrasca can't write correctly today... 2020-07-03T12:46:25Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:46:34Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T12:48:22Z phoe: I am okay, doing dayjob things 2020-07-03T12:49:46Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:50:53Z pve: ebrasca: don't know if it was mentioned, but could you do something like this? 2020-07-03T12:50:54Z pve: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1938 2020-07-03T12:52:25Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T12:53:10Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:54:25Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T12:54:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T12:57:13Z ebrasca: pve: I think mvlet is nise but using some lybrary like golden-utils in Mezzano... 2020-07-03T12:59:24Z jmercouris: how to document a defclass form? 2020-07-03T12:59:45Z jmercouris: use :documentation at tail of form?? 2020-07-03T13:01:28Z phoe: jmercouris: yes 2020-07-03T13:01:30Z mfiano: That's one way 2020-07-03T13:01:46Z phoe: setf documentation too 2020-07-03T13:01:50Z phoe: documentation-utils too 2020-07-03T13:02:18Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-03T13:03:20Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T13:03:37Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:04:51Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:08:04Z HighMemoryDaemon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T13:08:13Z mason left #lisp 2020-07-03T13:08:40Z userone joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:08:56Z jason_m quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T13:11:00Z jmercouris: how does time know how many processor cycles were required? 2020-07-03T13:11:26Z jmercouris: how could any process possibly know that? 2020-07-03T13:12:14Z jmercouris: I thought that the binary was just a contract, how the underlying operations are performed, and the amount of cycles is not dependent 2020-07-03T13:12:33Z jmercouris: eg mv could take 1 or 1 million cycles, up to the discretion of the CPU 2020-07-03T13:12:36Z mfiano: They are estimated, depending on the interfaces the OS provides. 2020-07-03T13:13:25Z jmercouris: I see 2020-07-03T13:13:45Z mfiano: TIME doesn't require producing that information, though. 2020-07-03T13:15:58Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:20:44Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-03T13:20:52Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:24:41Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:26:15Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:28:22Z orivej_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-03T13:29:31Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:30:03Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:31:40Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T13:32:16Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T13:32:32Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:36:15Z shangul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-03T13:37:32Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-03T13:39:11Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:39:23Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:40:17Z enrioog joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:43:00Z enrio quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T13:43:15Z grumble quit (Quit: Well, would you look at the time. I've almost missed my ambiguous, non-existent appointment that I have scheduled just when I start to lose interest in my current conversation.) 2020-07-03T13:43:49Z grumble joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:44:55Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:47:22Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:48:48Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T13:49:08Z ayuce quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T13:49:14Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-07-03T13:51:32Z Bike: jmercouris: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Stamp_Counter 2020-07-03T13:52:04Z jmercouris: ah, i did not know about that 2020-07-03T13:52:07Z jmercouris: very cool Bike 2020-07-03T13:52:11Z jmercouris: in any case, first sentence "The Time Stamp Counter was once an excellent high-resolution, low-overhead way for a program to get CPU timing information. With the advent of multi-core/hyper-threaded CPUs, systems with multiple CPUs, and hibernating operating systems, the TSC cannot be relied upon to provide accurate results" 2020-07-03T13:52:32Z Bike: sbcl does use it though, i think 2020-07-03T13:53:05Z Bike: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/0fcebff494f89fe5fa0e5855fb36ed5d913783b7/src/compiler/x86-64/system.lisp#L351-L378 yeah. some deets 2020-07-03T13:53:10Z phoe: TIME is single-threaded single-CPU'd though 2020-07-03T13:53:31Z phoe: and I guess you cannot expect good results in case of hibernation anyway 2020-07-03T13:53:43Z Bike: sbcl also empties the instruction pipeline first to deal with out of order ness 2020-07-03T13:53:50Z jmercouris: very clever 2020-07-03T13:54:08Z Bike: and "the results are per-processor and not per-process, so are unreliable on multiprocessor machines where processes can migrate between processors." 2020-07-03T13:57:07Z Bike: also re "mv could take 1 or 1 million cycles", these things tend to be pretty well documented in architecture manuals or by agner fog 2020-07-03T13:57:22Z Bike: but, indeed, trying to estimate how many cycles a given stretch of instructions would take to execute wouldn't work very well 2020-07-03T13:58:10Z Bike: plus on a more basic level you'd have to know how many times a loop is going to execute and etc, which makes it outright impossible 2020-07-03T14:00:35Z orivej_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-03T14:00:42Z userone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-03T14:01:02Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T14:01:07Z phoe: you'd need to have a cycle-perfect CPU emulator 2020-07-03T14:01:11Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-03T14:01:18Z phoe: and that requires emulating caches and memory as well 2020-07-03T14:01:37Z phoe: and having it map 1-to-1 to the particular CPU model 2020-07-03T14:01:40Z mfiano: A cycle-perfect emulator of anything is not possible 2020-07-03T14:02:02Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-03T14:02:29Z phoe: I mean, not mapping 1-to-1 to machine cycles, but being able to count instruction cycles by either literally executing that code or doing some sort of examination on it 2020-07-03T14:02:38Z phoe: ugly stuff 2020-07-03T14:02:47Z mfiano: Take the case of DICE, the digital integrated circuit emulator. Here is an emulator that works at the transistor level for absolutely perfect recreation of the very first video games ever created. To run Pong at about 5-10fps, DICE requires a 3GHz processor, which wasn't a thing until relatively very recently ago. 2020-07-03T14:09:23Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-03T14:10:12Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T14:10:25Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T14:10:52Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T14:11:35Z lonjil: anyone here happen to have a pdf of Baker's paper Lively Linear Lisp? His website seems to be down. 2020-07-03T14:13:46Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-07-03T14:18:46Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T14:19:14Z jmercouris: anyone know of a implementation of pagerank within CL? 2020-07-03T14:20:55Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-03T14:22:01Z jmercouris: well, it seems allegro graph has this... 2020-07-03T14:23:01Z jmercouris: cl graph does not seem to have this 2020-07-03T14:24:35Z jmercouris: in fact grepping for "centrality" reveals no centrality measures whatsoever 2020-07-03T14:24:54Z jmercouris: Hm, I guess I am on my own 2020-07-03T14:25:53Z ebrasca: lonjil: Do you mean this http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/hunt/research/hash-cons/hash-cons-papers/BakerLinearLisp.pdf ? 2020-07-03T14:26:40Z lonjil: Yes 2020-07-03T14:26:58Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-03T14:27:19Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-03T14:27:23Z lonjil: Thanks 2020-07-03T14:28:26Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-03T14:28:33Z rippa quit (Quit: 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2020-07-03T17:45:19Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-03T17:49:34Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T17:51:37Z shymega joined #lisp 2020-07-03T17:52:20Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-03T17:55:10Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T17:55:34Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T18:01:35Z pve: Can anyone recommend a tool for printing CL code, like on paper? So something to convert the source files into .ps or .pdf.. 2020-07-03T18:01:43Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-03T18:02:02Z pve: I know emacs has some printing stuff, but I've never used it, so I don't know how viable it is 2020-07-03T18:04:38Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2020-07-03T18:06:44Z _death: I remember lukego had a blog post about it ( https://lukego.github.io/blog/2012/10/24/readable-programs/ ) but I don't print stuff 2020-07-03T18:08:00Z pve: aha, thanks! 2020-07-03T18:14:15Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T18:15:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T18:16:11Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-03T18:17:28Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T18:18:16Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-03T18:20:14Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T18:22:14Z aeth: heh, I was about to say, "That was 2012, but in 2020, we'd probably just use Markdown"... but the blog's already talking about Markdown. I guess everyone cool was already talking about Markdown even by 2010. 2020-07-03T18:24:49Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T18:25:24Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T18:26:37Z _death: recently I reverted (for no good reason) to the intricate comment convention style mentioned in the clhs.. for some years I only used ;;;; and ;; and stopped inserting Page characters .. still don't know if it's worth it 2020-07-03T18:26:51Z aeth: pve: You can just add "### filename.lisp~%```common-lisp~%" to the top of a file and "```~%~%" to the bottom and concatenate the files together and use an existing Markdown processor, assuming the comments and docstrings don't need to be handled in a fancy way. 2020-07-03T18:27:21Z aeth: (Even a shell script could do this, with \n as the newline marker.) 2020-07-03T18:28:26Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2020-07-03T18:30:52Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T18:31:32Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-03T18:32:25Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-03T18:33:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T18:35:31Z ebrasca: Why? 2020-07-03T18:36:54Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T18:38:19Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-03T18:38:50Z Blukunfando quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-03T18:39:22Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T18:39:34Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T18:47:00Z Volt_ joined #lisp 2020-07-03T18:54:49Z catern quit (Excess Flood) 2020-07-03T18:55:38Z catern joined #lisp 2020-07-03T18:56:56Z Guest9274: o/ How can I declare function's output value as a composite type? I want to say that a function returns `(or null string)`. I see it's possible to do so for variables, but was wondering if it's possible for function parameters. 2020-07-03T18:59:21Z phoe: Guest9274: (declare (ftype (function () (or null string) ...)) 2020-07-03T18:59:27Z phoe: s/declare/declaim/ 2020-07-03T18:59:45Z _paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T19:00:07Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:00:44Z pve: aeth: thanks, can a markdown processor give me syntax highlighting? 2020-07-03T19:01:31Z leb joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:06:00Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T19:06:03Z Guest9274: phoe: thanks! 2020-07-03T19:06:14Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:07:12Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-07-03T19:07:27Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:10:52Z aeth: pve: if it recognizes the language name in the code block section 2020-07-03T19:11:07Z aeth: probably "common-lisp", but possibly just "lisp" 2020-07-03T19:18:24Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:18:48Z pve: all right 2020-07-03T19:19:44Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:20:06Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-03T19:23:46Z MidHotaru quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-03T19:25:52Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T19:27:09Z phoe: What's the simplest way to get a inheritance graph drawn for me? Something McCLIMish? 2020-07-03T19:28:20Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T19:30:04Z aeth joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:33:29Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T19:33:53Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:35:26Z _death: https://gist.github.com/death/9f8cd25f4e946948a64a1f485e70f605 ? 2020-07-03T19:36:33Z phoe: oh! i meant something spatial 2020-07-03T19:36:39Z phoe: like https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/727649887549653212/728694783706529853/Zrzut_ekranu_z_2020-07-03_21-32-49.png that I did real quick in draw.io 2020-07-03T19:38:22Z _death: not sure what "spatial" means? 2020-07-03T19:38:55Z leb quit 2020-07-03T19:39:06Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T19:39:38Z leb joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:43:54Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:46:52Z phoe: 2D 2020-07-03T19:47:06Z phoe: write-digraph produces a list of arrows 2020-07-03T19:47:13Z _death: dot -Tpng foo.dot > foo.png 2020-07-03T19:47:14Z phoe: ...if I understand your code correctly that is 2020-07-03T19:47:18Z phoe: oh! 2020-07-03T19:47:25Z phoe: thanks ;D 2020-07-03T19:48:02Z _death: that snippet's from 2008 though :) 2020-07-03T19:48:35Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:48:44Z _death: for more recent dot stuff I use cl-dot 2020-07-03T19:49:48Z gjulio joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:51:33Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:51:49Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T19:53:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T19:53:24Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:53:41Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-03T19:54:01Z bsd4me quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T19:54:04Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T19:54:58Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-03T19:56:44Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T19:59:04Z _death: for example https://i.imgur.com/piCKqJd.png from some months ago 2020-07-03T20:00:23Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-03T20:06:14Z jprajzne_ joined #lisp 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2020-07-04T01:40:59Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-04T01:42:45Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-04T01:45:25Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T01:51:17Z renzhi joined #lisp 2020-07-04T01:53:26Z bsd4me quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T02:00:20Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-07-04T02:01:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T02:02:17Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T02:07:09Z gjulio: hey i'm new to the channel and new-ish to lisp. i'm getting stuck with the syntax on using remove with reduce. if i have a blacklist ofsymbols '(a b c) and a list '(a b a c a b b a). I want to use reduce to obtain '(a a b b a). 2020-07-04T02:07:16Z gjulio: i'm trying this 2020-07-04T02:07:29Z gjulio: (reduce (lambda (x y) (remove x y :count 1)) 2020-07-04T02:07:29Z gjulio: '(a b c) 2020-07-04T02:07:30Z gjulio: :initial-value '(a b a c a b b a)) 2020-07-04T02:08:34Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-04T02:09:12Z gjulio: ah sheeit, i should just sway x and y in my remove call... 2020-07-04T02:10:45Z TwoNotes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-04T02:10:54Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T02:11:26Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T02:12:59Z KaiLikesLinux joined #lisp 2020-07-04T02:13:02Z KaiLikesLinux left #lisp 2020-07-04T02:15:37Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-04T02:17:11Z ArthurStrong quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-04T02:24:40Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T02:25:06Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T02:33:40Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T02:34:15Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-04T02:40:34Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T02:42:46Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T03:00:52Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T03:06:56Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-04T03:07:56Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-07-04T03:08:04Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T03:08:28Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-04T03:08:47Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-04T03:09:01Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T03:09:15Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-04T03:12:50Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-04T03:34:06Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-07-04T03:34:08Z asarch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T03:34:49Z beach: gjulio: Did you solve your problem? 2020-07-04T03:35:10Z gjulio: yeah, beach it all worked out. thanks 2020-07-04T03:35:17Z beach: Great! 2020-07-04T03:35:28Z beach: And welcome to #lisp. 2020-07-04T03:35:45Z freshpassport joined #lisp 2020-07-04T03:35:54Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T03:41:03Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-07-04T03:50:07Z Volt_ quit (Quit: exit();) 2020-07-04T03:51:36Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-04T03:53:46Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-04T03:54:06Z shukryzablah joined #lisp 2020-07-04T03:55:27Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-04T03:58:26Z shukryzablah: is it possible to make + add two vectors element-wise? (+ (vector 1 2) (vector 3 4)) -> #(4 6) . How can I do this? 2020-07-04T04:00:22Z White_Flame: (map 'vector #'+ #(1 2) #(3 4)) 2020-07-04T04:00:49Z White_Flame: of course, that's not making + do anything new, but using + element-wise across two vectors 2020-07-04T04:02:47Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-04T04:05:01Z beach: shukryzablah: No, you can't alter the behavior of +, nor of many other basic Common Lisp functions. But you can create your own package and your own + function that is able to add vectors. 2020-07-04T04:06:56Z bsd4me quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T04:10:10Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-04T04:11:35Z OpenZen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T04:11:37Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-04T04:11:51Z jibanes joined #lisp 2020-07-04T04:17:56Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T04:19:16Z jibanes joined #lisp 2020-07-04T04:20:23Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T04:20:44Z OpenZen joined #lisp 2020-07-04T04:21:20Z madage joined #lisp 2020-07-04T04:26:54Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T04:28:59Z jibanes joined #lisp 2020-07-04T04:31:25Z fbmnds joined #lisp 2020-07-04T04:33:39Z shukryzablah left #lisp 2020-07-04T04:37:05Z aeth: If you want type-based generics (as opposed to class-based... normally classes are sufficient, but for numbers/arrays they often aren't), one library to do this is https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/ 2020-07-04T04:37:15Z aeth: It's a slower generic dispatch unless it can be inlined. 2020-07-04T04:41:10Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T04:49:02Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-04T04:50:56Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-04T04:52:56Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-07-04T04:57:01Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T04:58:05Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-04T04:59:12Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-04T04:59:45Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-04T05:01:40Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-04T05:02:57Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-07-04T05:06:01Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T05:12:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-07-04T05:12:54Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-04T05:27:35Z montxero quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T05:29:01Z OpenZen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T05:31:03Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-04T05:32:37Z fbmnds: Hi, maybe first some context: I intend to use the Qt5 bindings for ECL (EQL5 https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5) for my own project. EQL5 comes with a nice collection of examples which most of them I got running on my ARM64 developer platform. I expect to figure out how to use EQL5 for my project on my own. 2020-07-04T05:32:46Z fbmnds: I'd like to know whether there is interest in this community to dig into EQL5 in essence to be able to further maintain this project. From what I understood going through the code base, EQL5 is based on witty design ideas and allows for cross platform GUI development (the examples apps work nice on my Android mobile, too - iOS is also supported). 2020-07-04T05:33:28Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-04T05:39:37Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-07-04T05:41:45Z beach: fbmnds: Hello. You may have better luck some other time. This is early Saturday morning in Europe, and late Friday evening in north America. 2020-07-04T05:42:35Z beach: And many participants have families, so weekends are kind of slow here. 2020-07-04T05:48:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T05:50:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-04T05:51:49Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T05:54:14Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-04T06:00:59Z fbmnds: @beach ok - I'll post again on Monday morning :-) 2020-07-04T06:03:40Z beach: Good plan. Oh, and this is IRC, and the @ convention is not used. Just type the nickname followed by a `:'. Your IRC client should complete for you. 2020-07-04T06:04:11Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T06:06:14Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T06:06:58Z beach: fbmnds: And, the channel is logged, so you might get some feedback over the weekend. 2020-07-04T06:10:05Z adlai occasionally sees a comma instead of colon, this seems like a less formal convention... most IRC clients will highlight the message in either case 2020-07-04T06:11:43Z adlai: fbmnds: there is also an #ecl channel that might be useful since you are asking about an ECL-specific project 2020-07-04T06:11:54Z fbmnds: beach: I alienate quite a bit with chat platforms in general 2020-07-04T06:12:26Z fbmnds: adlai: no traffic there in at least the last couple of days 2020-07-04T06:13:26Z adlai mumbles something about how maybe they'd get more excitement about ECL if it implemented the complete ANSI specification 2020-07-04T06:13:47Z beach: fbmnds: jackdaniel is the current maintainer of ECL, and he fulfills all the criteria. He has a family (new baby too), and he is very busy. But he is often around. 2020-07-04T06:14:24Z beach: adlai: Is ECL lacking a lot in this respect? 2020-07-04T06:14:26Z fbmnds: beach: thank you, I know 2020-07-04T06:14:32Z beach: Ah, OK. 2020-07-04T06:14:52Z adlai: beach: no, I am only aware of one painful incompliance - the lack of :arguments in the long form of define-method-combination 2020-07-04T06:15:01Z fbmnds: beach: I browsed the logs already when I was searching for another topic 2020-07-04T06:15:15Z beach: adlai: I see. 2020-07-04T06:15:26Z beach: fbmnds: OK. 2020-07-04T06:16:13Z adlai: I've considered taking this on as a project, since at least one other implementation (Clasp) has inherited that problem, by reusing ECL's code 2020-07-04T06:17:18Z beach: Indeed. And I was planning to use ECL to bootstrap SICL, so I might be interested as well. Plus, I have this long-term plan to try to create a Cleavir-based compiler for ECL. 2020-07-04T06:18:22Z adlai: are you already using the :arguments argument in SICL? 2020-07-04T06:18:39Z beach: I don't think so. 2020-07-04T06:18:57Z beach: But I might. :) 2020-07-04T06:19:49Z adlai: it seems understandable to me that an attempt to write an efficient method dispatch system would skip that one feature, although the result is a nuisance, because it is a very useful feature 2020-07-04T06:20:28Z beach: I understand. 2020-07-04T06:22:56Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-07-04T06:23:31Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-04T06:25:11Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2020-07-04T06:26:10Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T06:27:28Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-04T06:27:50Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-04T06:32:18Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-04T06:32:58Z fbmnds: phoe: ref. [2020-03-28, 13:46 nope, it's non-portable and SBCL-only] osicat runs on ECL too (https://pastebin.com/VSQDwAKu) - just saying 2020-07-04T06:35:58Z simendsjo joined #lisp 2020-07-04T06:37:44Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-04T06:37:48Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T06:38:59Z bsd4me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-04T06:40:23Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-04T06:41:59Z froggey joined #lisp 2020-07-04T06:42:00Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-04T06:45:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T06:47:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-04T06:48:46Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-07-04T06:55:36Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-07-04T07:01:10Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T07:04:20Z simendsjo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T07:07:18Z RukiSama joined #lisp 2020-07-04T07:08:04Z simendsjo joined #lisp 2020-07-04T07:16:36Z phoe: fbmnds: my answer was to "do other distributions have a sb-posix compatibility layer? ccl?" not to osicat itself 2020-07-04T07:16:37Z fbmnds quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T07:16:59Z phoe: I don't think any other implementation emulates SB-POSIX 2020-07-04T07:17:50Z phoe: ECL follows some SBCL interfaces, but the last time I checked (and I might have failed) it doesn't have a layer that follows SB-POSIX 2020-07-04T07:24:30Z simendsjo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T07:25:37Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-04T07:26:38Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T07:27:12Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T07:31:44Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-04T07:32:31Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-04T07:34:32Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-04T07:35:57Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-04T07:52:29Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T07:54:23Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-04T08:01:02Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T08:06:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T08:08:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-04T08:10:10Z freshpassport quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2020-07-04T08:10:31Z montxero joined #lisp 2020-07-04T08:12:43Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-07-04T08:13:20Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-04T08:22:44Z isBEKaml quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T08:23:19Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-07-04T08:23:38Z freshpassport joined #lisp 2020-07-04T08:25:34Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T08:26:56Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-04T08:29:27Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T08:33:22Z datajerk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-04T08:34:16Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T08:36:54Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T08:39:01Z jackdaniel: ah, he's gone 2020-07-04T08:40:37Z fanta1 joined #lisp 2020-07-04T08:40:46Z jackdaniel: adlai: lack of this argument is a bug, but saying that "ecl doesn't implement the complete ansi specification" based on one missing argument is quite a stretch 2020-07-04T08:40:55Z jackdaniel: please report an issue on the bugtracker 2020-07-04T08:41:32Z jackdaniel: even sbcl doesn't pass all tests from ansi-test suite (some of disrapencies were a deliberate choice at that!) 2020-07-04T08:45:02Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-07-04T08:46:41Z datajerk joined #lisp 2020-07-04T08:56:48Z fbmnds joined #lisp 2020-07-04T08:57:47Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T09:01:07Z fbmnds: phoe: ah ok - I came across this when I looked into osicat as a dependency of cserial-port while porting from SBCL to ECL. I had problems with getting osicat to run until I realised that it runs well if ECL is compiled as default with gcc (had previously used g++) 2020-07-04T09:02:00Z bocaneri quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T09:04:25Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-07-04T09:04:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T09:05:48Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-04T09:05:48Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-04T09:05:48Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-04T09:05:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-07-04T09:06:12Z jackdaniel: fbmnds: eql5 is actively developed and maintained by Paul Ruetz (the project author), I'm not sure what do you mean by "maintaining further" the project 2020-07-04T09:07:20Z fbmnds: btw, has anyone succeeded in building a reliable permanent connection to a microcontroller with cserial-port? I tend to believe that is practically not possible due to timing issues between send/response sequences. I am looking now to make my own FFI wrapper for a C library. 2020-07-04T09:10:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T09:13:11Z roze joined #lisp 2020-07-04T09:16:28Z fbmnds: jackdaniel: I refer to upcoming maintenace challenges in a foreseeable future, given that Paul Ruetz mentioned to me in a private email conversation that he regards EQL5 as a hobby project on which he does not want to spend too much of his private time. 2020-07-04T09:22:16Z jackdaniel: uhm, thanks for elaborating 2020-07-04T09:27:14Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T09:28:54Z besse joined #lisp 2020-07-04T09:30:14Z fbmnds: jackdaniel: I should add that I am also refering to the upcoming Qt6 release (https://www.qt.io/blog/2019/08/07/technical-vision-qt-6) 2020-07-04T09:32:46Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T09:34:22Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-04T09:43:18Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-04T09:52:16Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T09:52:40Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-04T09:54:53Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-04T09:55:16Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T10:07:57Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T10:10:17Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-04T10:10:49Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-07-04T10:11:19Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-07-04T10:13:03Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-07-04T10:15:22Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-04T10:17:10Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T10:20:29Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-04T10:31:24Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-07-04T10:32:37Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T10:32:44Z [X-Scale] joined #lisp 2020-07-04T10:32:45Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-07-04T10:33:13Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-04T10:33:22Z [X-Scale] is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-04T10:35:58Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-04T10:37:14Z besse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-04T10:46:07Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-04T11:06:38Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-04T11:12:01Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-04T11:13:39Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-04T11:20:52Z MrtnDk[m]: In Guile scheme, which command do you recommend for reading a line of text (from a file stored on a fixed disk, for instance)? 2020-07-04T11:21:46Z MrtnDk[m]: (as opposed to common lisp, I guess). 🥴 2020-07-04T11:25:08Z MrtnDk[m]: (Sorry, I guess I posted it in the wrong Lisp. I just reread the room discription of this one). 2020-07-04T11:25:40Z rgherdt: you can ask that on #guile or #scheme. But you probably want to take a look at read-line 2020-07-04T11:25:53Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-04T11:29:28Z bitmapper quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-04T11:31:43Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T11:34:28Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T11:36:40Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-04T11:49:39Z ITO joined #lisp 2020-07-04T11:50:04Z ITO is now known as Guest58665 2020-07-04T11:50:36Z MrtnDk[m]: I tried readline, but it doesn't seem to work in newer guiles. (use-package (ice-9 readline)) or something. 2020-07-04T11:55:10Z rgherdt: MrtnDk[m]: don't confuse readline (GNU's tool) with scheme's read-line. The latter can be imported for instance from (scheme base) or rdelim 2020-07-04T11:56:42Z Guest58665 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T12:00:02Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2020-07-04T12:01:21Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-07-04T12:02:19Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T12:03:18Z iissaacc: yo, im working with common lisp and i have a directory of 74000 files i need to process. (directory) is running okay but I'm only getting 50 filenames, anyone know why this could be? 2020-07-04T12:05:05Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-04T12:06:13Z bendersteed quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T12:06:54Z roze quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-04T12:09:32Z phoe: iissaacc: how do you call #'directory? 2020-07-04T12:09:46Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-07-04T12:10:02Z iissaacc: phoe: (setf *fnames* (directory "/Users/isaac/Dropbox/patterns/*")) 2020-07-04T12:11:42Z phoe: iissaacc: that won't include subdirs IIRC 2020-07-04T12:11:46Z pve: iissaacc: try *.* instead 2020-07-04T12:11:51Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-04T12:12:31Z _death: for subdirectories you can try */*.* or **/*.* 2020-07-04T12:12:40Z freshpassport quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-07-04T12:12:46Z iissaacc: aha 2020-07-04T12:13:13Z iissaacc: thanks for that my Gs got it 2020-07-04T12:14:16Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-07-04T12:14:45Z phoe: there is also uiop:collect-sub*directories 2020-07-04T12:16:43Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-04T12:19:02Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-04T12:19:36Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T12:22:04Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-07-04T12:39:26Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-04T12:44:54Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T12:47:26Z montxero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T12:48:22Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T12:48:56Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-04T12:50:37Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T12:50:39Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-04T12:51:30Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp 2020-07-04T13:08:15Z MrtnDk[m]: rgherdt: Ahh! I thought "read-line" was a typo I made, since it generated an error and isn't mentioned in the texinfo documentation of the guile reference! 2020-07-04T13:12:44Z libertyprime quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-04T13:14:34Z roelj joined #lisp 2020-07-04T13:14:56Z fbmnds quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T13:16:31Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T13:17:54Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T13:19:52Z nabataeus joined #lisp 2020-07-04T13:20:01Z nabataeus: Hello :D 2020-07-04T13:20:20Z nabataeus: Has anyone here ever tried to emulate a Symbolics Lisp Machine? 2020-07-04T13:20:52Z nabataeus: I'm asking because I'm attempting to emulate one though I don't know where to look. 2020-07-04T13:23:39Z lucasb joined #lisp 2020-07-04T13:23:54Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T13:24:04Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-04T13:24:05Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-04T13:24:40Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T13:24:42Z phoe: nabataeus: there is code for running Open Genera, called VLM 2020-07-04T13:24:51Z phoe: also some for MIT CADR 2020-07-04T13:26:41Z nabataeus: phoe: Is open Genera an OSS version of the original Genera? Does it differ, or is just relicensed. 2020-07-04T13:27:43Z phoe: it isn't OSS 2020-07-04T13:28:16Z nabataeus: Oh alright 2020-07-04T13:28:17Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-07-04T13:28:24Z p_l: nabataeus: OpenGenera was "Open" in the sense of not requiring custom CPU platform 2020-07-04T13:28:50Z nabataeus: And what does that mean? 2020-07-04T13:29:20Z p_l: nabataeus: it's an unfinished (but usable in production) system that runs Genera 8.5 on top of Alpha CPU running Digital Unix (POSIX = "Open Systems" at the time) 2020-07-04T13:30:25Z nabataeus: That's neat. 2020-07-04T13:30:41Z nabataeus: p_l: Have you gotten any luck trying to run one? 2020-07-04T13:34:42Z p_l: nabataeus: yes, it's been pretty popular for a time to use hacked-up versions that run on amd64, the range of bugs can be subtle though 2020-07-04T13:35:34Z p_l: and not all software will work, as OpenGenera never actually hit planned 1.0, despite 1.0 and 2.0 being sold, and some software expects presence of old console interface (whereas OpenGenera only exposes a newer API that not all applications migrated to) 2020-07-04T13:36:40Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-04T13:37:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T13:37:54Z nabataeus: Hm 2020-07-04T13:38:04Z bitmapper: also a bit buggy 2020-07-04T13:38:14Z bitmapper: i hit a microcode error while writing tetris 2020-07-04T13:40:37Z nabataeus: How is the machine emulated? 2020-07-04T13:41:50Z bitmapper: on alpha or on x86_64? 2020-07-04T13:42:27Z nabataeus: On x86_64 2020-07-04T13:45:36Z bitmapper: the x86_64 emulator was made by writing a program that translates alpha pseudo-assembly into C, and then just translating the alpha emulator 2020-07-04T13:49:53Z nabataeus: Never heard of pseudo-assembly. 2020-07-04T13:51:00Z nabataeus: But I think their 'Genera Concepts' guide would better explain this. Either ways thanks for your time o/ 2020-07-04T13:51:06Z bitmapper: well, it's not a specific thing 2020-07-04T13:51:13Z bitmapper: nabataeus: nah it won't 2020-07-04T13:51:26Z bitmapper: i say pseudo-assembly because it's an encoding of assembly in lisp 2020-07-04T13:51:38Z p_l: nabataeus: VLM (Virtual Lisp Machine) essentially treated Alpha CPU as microcode engine 2020-07-04T13:52:19Z p_l: nabataeus: and using fine-tuned assembly implemented microcode engine for modified version of Ivory CPU (binaries between Ivory revs 0-4 and rev5 aka VLM are incompatible) 2020-07-04T13:53:02Z p_l: there's some C code which was taken from MacIvory/UX series code, except instead of talking to expansion board with real Ivory CPU it talks to the microcode engine 2020-07-04T13:54:01Z p_l: from hw other than CPU, the system presented is equivalent to UX-series symbolics lisp machines 2020-07-04T13:56:07Z bsd4me quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T13:58:16Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-07-04T13:58:34Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T14:00:12Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-04T14:02:10Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T14:16:13Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T14:17:37Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T14:22:46Z dra_ joined #lisp 2020-07-04T14:23:46Z dra_ quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-04T14:23:58Z dra_ joined #lisp 2020-07-04T14:24:04Z Lycurgus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T14:24:19Z dra_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T14:24:30Z dra joined #lisp 2020-07-04T14:28:52Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-04T14:29:22Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-04T14:29:49Z roelj left #lisp 2020-07-04T14:30:12Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-07-04T14:38:18Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-04T14:41:42Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-04T14:47:35Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-07-04T14:50:32Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-07-04T14:51:13Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T14:52:38Z adlai: nabataeus: there is still a teeny tiny market for the actual machines themselves, and their peripherals and replacement parts 2020-07-04T14:56:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T14:57:00Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T15:05:38Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T15:06:10Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T15:18:56Z easye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T15:19:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T15:20:19Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T15:22:54Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T15:34:37Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T15:35:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T15:39:04Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-04T15:39:43Z bsd4me quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T15:49:53Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-04T15:52:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T15:59:28Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T16:00:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T16:05:03Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-07-04T16:06:19Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-04T16:14:14Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-04T16:14:30Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-04T16:19:56Z easye joined #lisp 2020-07-04T16:20:20Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-04T16:23:43Z bsd4me quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T16:24:33Z orivej_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-04T16:25:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T16:30:55Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-04T16:30:59Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T16:31:06Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-07-04T16:31:56Z MrtnDk[m]: is Net splitty today? 2020-07-04T16:32:48Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-04T16:33:10Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-04T16:33:22Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-04T16:33:31Z dra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T16:33:38Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-04T16:34:35Z v3ga joined #lisp 2020-07-04T16:35:07Z nabataeus: adlai: Yeah I've heard you can contact Symbolics to get your own machine. 2020-07-04T16:35:17Z nabataeus: Though it's a bit pricey, isn't it? 2020-07-04T16:44:59Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-04T16:52:44Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-04T16:52:48Z gjulio joined #lisp 2020-07-04T16:54:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T16:54:54Z papachan joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:05:37Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T17:06:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:07:25Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T17:19:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T17:20:09Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:20:48Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-07-04T17:21:54Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:26:16Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T17:28:54Z OpenZen joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:29:00Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T17:29:28Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:33:09Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-04T17:33:33Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:38:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T17:38:24Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:46:39Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:46:54Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-04T17:46:57Z nabataeus quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-07-04T17:48:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:50:13Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:51:04Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T17:51:24Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:53:59Z nabataeus joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:56:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T17:56:43Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:57:35Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-04T17:58:17Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-04T18:00:49Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T18:01:47Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-04T18:02:26Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T18:04:44Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-04T18:05:53Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T18:14:17Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-04T18:14:41Z gjulio joined #lisp 2020-07-04T18:14:44Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-04T18:16:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T18:19:28Z nabataeus quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-07-04T18:25:33Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-04T18:26:13Z bitmapper quit 2020-07-04T18:26:14Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T18:31:39Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-07-04T18:33:39Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T18:34:09Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-04T18:36:35Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-04T18:47:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T18:47:58Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-04T18:48:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-07-04T18:48:14Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T18:52:25Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-04T18:52:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T18:59:16Z papachan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-04T18:59:37Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2020-07-04T18:59:51Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-04T19:01:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T19:02:31Z terpri__ is now known as terpri 2020-07-04T19:02:43Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-04T19:19:27Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-07-04T19:22:22Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-04T19:22:44Z anlsh joined #lisp 2020-07-04T19:23:14Z gjulio joined #lisp 2020-07-04T19:26:30Z aeth: "Closos: Specification of a Lisp operating system (2013) [pdf]" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730107 2020-07-04T19:27:59Z nabataeus joined #lisp 2020-07-04T19:28:04Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-04T19:29:24Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T19:30:24Z anlsh: I need an automatic documentation generator that doesn't produce output that belongs in the 80s, what are my options? Codex fits the bill, but I have some problems with its markup language Scriba 2020-07-04T19:31:10Z anlsh: Coo and Staple are broken out of the box for me, Coo just doesn't do anything and Staple only produces empty pages 2020-07-04T19:33:42Z anlsh: cldomain seems promising since it would let me leverage Python's sphinx, which people actually use, but for the life of me I can't figure out how to use it 2020-07-04T19:34:10Z anlsh: In fact its github page doesn't even link to its own documentation 2020-07-04T19:36:09Z sam_samiy_samson joined #lisp 2020-07-04T19:36:44Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T19:38:31Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-04T19:49:59Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-07-04T19:51:19Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-04T19:53:46Z roze joined #lisp 2020-07-04T19:54:30Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-04T19:59:12Z phoe: anlsh: how is Staple broken? 2020-07-04T19:59:23Z hdasch quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6+deb1ubuntu0.2 - http://znc.in) 2020-07-04T20:01:19Z anlsh: phoe: In fact it doesn't look like it is. For some reason, when I was trying to use it earlier it was simply generating empty pages without any of the symbols or docstrings in my package. After restarting my lisp image, the issue seems to have gone away 2020-07-04T20:01:36Z anlsh: I'm trying to get it to render the markdown in my docstrings now 2020-07-04T20:01:54Z phoe: anlsh: I think staple needs to be loaded before your stuff is loaded because that's how it recognizes what *new* stuff has been introduced since it was loaded 2020-07-04T20:02:07Z phoe: and what it needs to put in the documentation 2020-07-04T20:03:22Z anlsh: Well the README states that "For best immediate results you should not load your system before you load Staple, so that Staple can record the packages the system defines as it is being loaded", but it looks like "best immediate results" should be replaced with "any results at all" 2020-07-04T20:03:37Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-07-04T20:05:30Z anlsh: I guess I thought that it would find the docstrings but not the list of packages 2020-07-04T20:13:09Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T20:17:33Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-07-04T20:18:05Z frgo_ quit 2020-07-04T20:31:22Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-04T20:32:30Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-07-04T20:36:52Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-04T20:39:54Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T20:42:40Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-04T20:44:22Z roze quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-04T20:45:04Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T20:45:05Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-04T20:54:00Z fanta1 quit (Quit: fanta1) 2020-07-04T20:57:49Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T20:57:55Z TwoNotes joined #lisp 2020-07-04T20:57:59Z TwoNotes: #sbcl 2020-07-04T20:58:10Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-04T20:58:14Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T20:59:34Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T20:59:45Z userone joined #lisp 2020-07-04T21:00:06Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-04T21:02:54Z anlsh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T21:05:45Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-04T21:12:01Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T21:14:15Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-04T21:14:46Z gabot joined #lisp 2020-07-04T21:18:03Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-04T21:22:00Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-04T21:22:16Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-04T21:22:51Z mikecheck joined #lisp 2020-07-04T21:25:35Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2020-07-04T21:26:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T21:26:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-04T21:27:13Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T21:27:28Z SenasOzys quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-04T21:27:50Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-04T21:27:50Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2020-07-04T21:29:03Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T21:29:20Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2020-07-04T21:30:33Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T21:31:36Z mikecheck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T21:33:14Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T21:42:29Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-04T21:44:42Z TwoNotes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-04T21:46:55Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-04T21:57:18Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-04T21:58:10Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T22:00:03Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-04T22:01:36Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-07-04T22:03:50Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T22:15:44Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T22:16:59Z userone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-04T22:23:46Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T22:32:44Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T22:32:44Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-07-04T22:33:48Z grewal joined #lisp 2020-07-04T22:34:51Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-07-04T22:39:05Z stux|RC-only quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T22:45:07Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T22:45:43Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-07-04T22:46:03Z ayuce quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-04T22:49:06Z jcowan joined #lisp 2020-07-04T22:49:39Z jcowan: I would like some help figuring out what a "structure-object introspector" for programmatic use should give access to. 2020-07-04T22:50:26Z jcowan: Given a structure-class, what would be useful to extract from it? 2020-07-04T22:55:43Z phoe: since a structure-class is a standard object, I guess you can view all of its slots as if you viewed any other standard object 2020-07-04T22:56:40Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T22:56:43Z phoe: the question is if the MOP says anything about the slots available in CLASS objects, not just STANDARD-CLASS objects 2020-07-04T22:57:24Z phoe: ...not really, http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-class.html says nothing in particular 2020-07-04T22:57:45Z phoe: so we can't really portably infer anything about the contents of STRUCTURE-CLASS objects by looking at CLASS objects 2020-07-04T22:58:26Z phoe: unless you find some other way in the MOP that I am not yet aware of 2020-07-04T22:58:29Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T22:58:36Z Bike: what you should be looking at is whether class-slots as a method on structure-class (it doesn't). mop doesn't define any standard class's slots 2020-07-04T22:58:38Z phoe: or decide to go for some sort of a portability library. 2020-07-04T22:58:57Z phoe: Bike: ah, correct! 2020-07-04T22:59:09Z Bike: has a method* 2020-07-04T22:59:55Z Bike: that said, implementations generally have one as an extension, or have class hierarchy changes for it 2020-07-04T23:00:24Z phoe: if slot-value works on all implementations then I guess class-slots should, too 2020-07-04T23:00:31Z phoe: s/slot-value/slot-value on structs/ 2020-07-04T23:00:44Z phoe: even though it's technically UB 2020-07-04T23:02:06Z grewal: Is "Common Lisp in the Wild: Deploying Common Lisp Apps with Confidence" by Wimpie Nortje worth buying? 2020-07-04T23:03:47Z Bike: slot-value could work even if class-slots doesn't, i suppose 2020-07-04T23:03:55Z Bike: don't know why it would be done that way, of course 2020-07-04T23:04:21Z phoe: Bike: hence "should" 2020-07-04T23:04:28Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T23:04:29Z Bike: oh 2020-07-04T23:04:35Z phoe: obviously we're already in UB territory, so everything can go 2020-07-04T23:15:31Z sam_samiy_samson quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T23:19:36Z gjulio joined #lisp 2020-07-04T23:24:50Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T23:26:42Z gjulio joined #lisp 2020-07-04T23:27:39Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-04T23:32:35Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2020-07-04T23:36:43Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T23:38:07Z anticrisis quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-04T23:38:28Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T23:41:36Z iarebatman joined #lisp 2020-07-04T23:43:24Z ArthurStrong joined #lisp 2020-07-04T23:50:29Z mathrick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T23:51:07Z mathrick joined #lisp 2020-07-04T23:51:41Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2020-07-04T23:53:34Z ealfonso: is there a webdav client? I only know of cl-webdav, which is a server, and cadaver which is CLI 2020-07-04T23:57:54Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T23:58:54Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T23:59:34Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T00:05:45Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-05T00:19:25Z jcowan: It would certainly have to be a portability library. 2020-07-05T00:20:24Z jcowan: But my question is not "What facilities do existing CLs actually provide?" but "What facilities should such a library provide?" The first can be settled by investigation, the second only by design. 2020-07-05T00:21:39Z jcowan: The maximalist version would be something that given a structure-object would return its structure-class, and then functions or methods that given a structure-class would return the de re values of the keyword arguments to defstruct (that is, the actual functions etc., not their names). 2020-07-05T00:22:29Z jcowan: That would be sufficient, given a structure-class, to construct another structure-class just like it (using eval); if you don't want to use eval, there would also need to be a function that is the equivalent of defstruct. 2020-07-05T00:24:01Z jcowan: The first requirement is met by class-of, at least I hope it is. But is it actually necessary in practice to find out *all* those things about a given structure-object in order to usefully manipulate it without knowing the names of the copier, constructor, predicate, etc. etc.? 2020-07-05T00:24:20Z jcowan: IOW, is there a subset of them that is still useful? 2020-07-05T00:26:27Z Bike: if i was designing from scratch i would drop the defstruct interface because it sucks, and instead have a new metaclass/whatever that indicates no redefinition is possible but still defines through defclass 2020-07-05T00:26:37Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T00:35:42Z Frobozz_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T00:37:25Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T00:38:43Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-05T00:39:14Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T00:39:16Z jibanes joined #lisp 2020-07-05T00:40:52Z jcowan: I see there is a QL library called deftclass that allows you to create a class as if it were a struct: that is, with minimum mental (and typing) overhead. I haven't explored it closely yet. 2020-07-05T00:46:57Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T00:47:03Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T01:01:54Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T01:02:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T01:03:08Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-05T01:04:46Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T01:21:58Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-05T01:27:52Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T01:28:33Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T01:31:13Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-07-05T01:32:01Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T01:32:31Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-05T01:33:41Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-05T01:40:14Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T01:42:45Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2020-07-05T01:43:21Z lalilulelo joined #lisp 2020-07-05T01:45:08Z aeth: Bike: no need for that to be a from-scratch design since you could just deprecate DEFSTRUCT and have it simply be sugar for creating the metaclass (as well as the handful of other things it creates, like COPY-FOO and MAKE-FOO) 2020-07-05T01:45:56Z aeth: (well... to be deprecated in a future revision, which is even more meaningless than being deprecated) 2020-07-05T01:46:51Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-05T01:51:40Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T01:52:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T01:52:37Z aeth: A standard implementation of DEFSTRUCT on top of DEFCLASS could be an interesting CDR, if people still do that. 2020-07-05T01:52:41Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-05T01:54:45Z dmiles joined #lisp 2020-07-05T01:56:53Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-05T02:00:21Z dominic34 quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-05T02:00:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T02:00:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T02:05:06Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-05T02:05:28Z coltkirk joined #lisp 2020-07-05T02:08:30Z coltkirk: hello, i'm tying to use the maiden package to make an irc bot (in another room). https://pastebin.com/vSbm6vrJ there's the paste. I'm using slime/sbcl. 2020-07-05T02:09:00Z Bike: are you running into a problem? 2020-07-05T02:09:52Z coltkirk: yes, I type the code in exactly as the official documentation states, but get several errors. The connection attempts but fails in a loop 2020-07-05T02:21:03Z Bike: i probably can't help you, but you'll get better advice if you describe the problem in detail, such as by putting the error messages in a pastebin 2020-07-05T02:22:45Z ealfonso: I like the explicit error handling approach of golang and google c++ statusor, is there something similar in lisp? 2020-07-05T02:23:42Z Bike: how does it work? 2020-07-05T02:26:36Z ealfonso: in c++ there is a type StatusOr, which could be a value or an error. then there are macros: ASSIGN_OR_RETURN(auto value, file::GetFileContents(filename)); 2020-07-05T02:27:29Z ealfonso: GetFileContents may return a status (error), which is propagated to the caller of the function containing ASSIGN_OR_RETURN 2020-07-05T02:27:35Z Bike: so an option type? 2020-07-05T02:27:50Z ealfonso: assuming that function also has a StatusOr type 2020-07-05T02:27:56Z ealfonso: return type. 2020-07-05T02:30:44Z ealfonso: yeah, I wasn't familiar with the name "option type". I haven't seen much CL code using this pattenr 2020-07-05T02:31:14Z Bike: me neither. it's related to having things that return a value or nil, but more involved with the monad kind of stuff 2020-07-05T02:40:51Z ealfonso: the thing about returning nil for an error is that it makes it hard for a lower-level utility function to propagate the reason of an error up the stack to a caller who may be in a better position to handle it, e.g. display a message to the user, try again, etc. of course this could be done using conditions. 2020-07-05T02:41:42Z ealfonso: but it seems more tedious to define the condition, handle it. 2020-07-05T02:42:04Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T02:42:04Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T02:42:52Z ealfonso: if-let doesn't give you context on where execution stopped because of a nil, and why 2020-07-05T02:44:42Z ealfonso: another problem with nil as sentinel for error is that it conflicts with "empty, no error" 2020-07-05T02:50:05Z ealfonso: one could write an "if-let-ok" macro, where the let expressions return an option type as 2-values, and with the "else" clause capturing the first non-ok option. but it would be an uphill battle since most existing code doesn't use this convention. 2020-07-05T02:54:04Z jcowan: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-189/srfi-189.html is a very new proposal for Maybe aka Option and Either types for Scheme, but there is no reason it couldn't be translated to CL. It also has a number of protocol converters that interchange between Maybe objects and various other conventions: value or NIL, 1 or more values or 0 values, etc. etc. 2020-07-05T02:56:37Z hifitim joined #lisp 2020-07-05T02:57:14Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-05T02:57:27Z hifitim quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-05T02:59:13Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T03:05:04Z ealfonso: interesting. yeah, I'm curious to follow how that will go, and maybe it could be adapted to CL. 2020-07-05T03:06:26Z ealfonso: for now I will start using an "if-let-ok" macro pattern for new code and seeing how it goes 2020-07-05T03:07:40Z MichaelRaskin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-05T03:08:26Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T03:13:49Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-07-05T03:14:04Z Bike: i feel like monads use some of their luster in an environment that doesn't use a lot of pattern matching 2020-07-05T03:14:37Z coltkirk: for what it's worth, although the new package 'maiden,' does not work as described, the former package 'colleen' seems to work just fine. 2020-07-05T03:14:41Z Bike: plus Just conses 2020-07-05T03:15:07Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T03:15:41Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-07-05T03:26:03Z coltkirk quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2020-07-05T03:42:18Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-07-05T03:43:01Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-05T03:48:20Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-07-05T03:59:59Z jcowan: ealfonso: It's stable now. 2020-07-05T04:00:47Z jcowan: The general monad library does what Haskell does under the covers: you pass around an object with procedures in it that contain the basic necessities. 2020-07-05T04:03:40Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T04:06:33Z beach: aeth: Do you happen to know who started the CLOSOS reference in that discussion? 2020-07-05T04:10:50Z beach: Speaking of DEFSTRUCT, I think I will do exactly what is suggested. It will just be a layer on top of the general STANDARD-CLASS features, with a separate metaclass and an additional superclass. So STRUCTURE-CLASS will be at the same level as STANDARD-CLASS in the hierarchy, and STRUCTURE-OBJECT will be a direct subclass of STANDARD-OBJECT, or a parallel one in case it is not allowed to have it a subclass. 2020-07-05T04:12:40Z KaiLikesLinux joined #lisp 2020-07-05T04:12:47Z Bike: i think that would be allowed by 4.2.2 2020-07-05T04:12:57Z beach: Yeah, I think so too. 2020-07-05T04:13:11Z jcowan: THat makes a lot of sense to me. 2020-07-05T04:13:12Z Bike: well, depending on ho w"that does not already specify either" etc is interpreted 2020-07-05T04:13:57Z beach: It is not that important. I can change it easily if that should be required. 2020-07-05T04:27:35Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-05T04:28:25Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-05T04:30:30Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-07-05T04:41:01Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T04:48:34Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-05T05:16:41Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-05T05:34:19Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-05T05:34:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T05:45:30Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-05T05:45:39Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T05:52:37Z gjulio joined #lisp 2020-07-05T06:00:31Z OpenZen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T06:10:14Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood) 2020-07-05T06:10:40Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-07-05T06:10:49Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T06:12:18Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T06:15:14Z fixing_auth_hold joined #lisp 2020-07-05T06:19:22Z lalilulelo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-05T06:19:35Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-05T06:19:38Z fixing_auth_hold quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-05T06:20:07Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T06:21:04Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-07-05T06:24:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-05T06:24:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T06:27:13Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T06:31:50Z akoana left #lisp 2020-07-05T06:34:28Z matzy_ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T06:35:01Z matzy_: does anyone else find cl-dbi to be weird when trying to POST data to a mysql table? 2020-07-05T06:45:49Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-05T06:47:08Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T06:58:00Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-05T07:12:25Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-05T07:13:11Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-05T07:19:37Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T07:22:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T07:22:49Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T07:26:15Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-05T07:26:35Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T07:26:49Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T07:27:37Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-05T07:28:14Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T07:28:17Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T07:31:37Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T07:45:04Z matzy_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2020-07-05T07:46:08Z phoe: hmmmm 2020-07-05T07:46:26Z phoe: I have a method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER that validates the keyword arguments and stuff 2020-07-05T07:46:52Z phoe: but I just came into a situation where I want REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE to also perform that validation 2020-07-05T07:47:08Z beach: Do it on SHARED-INITIALIZE instead. 2020-07-05T07:47:37Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T07:48:18Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-05T07:48:21Z phoe: yes, I'm just thinking if I've been doing The Incorrect Thing™ for this whole time - using INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :BEFORE/:AFTER for validating stuff 2020-07-05T07:48:39Z beach: It happens. 2020-07-05T07:48:41Z phoe: since REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE will not perform that validation 2020-07-05T07:48:49Z beach: Indeed. 2020-07-05T07:48:56Z beach: phoe: Is the online Lisp meeting still on tomorrow? 2020-07-05T07:48:58Z phoe: like, time to rewrite all the code I've written so far 2020-07-05T07:49:00Z phoe: beach: yes 2020-07-05T07:49:06Z beach: What time? 2020-07-05T07:49:12Z phoe: 13:00 CEST 2020-07-05T07:49:22Z beach: Perfect. 2020-07-05T07:49:30Z beach: What is CEST? UTC+2? 2020-07-05T07:50:07Z beach: I mean the `S' suggests "standard", but we are on daylight savings time. 2020-07-05T07:50:42Z beach: So logically, if it is UTC+2, it should be CEDT, but I don't much like those abbreviations, no doubt inspired from the US. 2020-07-05T07:50:54Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T07:51:10Z phoe: ha! it means Central European Summer Time 2020-07-05T07:51:18Z beach: Ouch. 2020-07-05T07:51:28Z phoe: I had to double-check because I also thought it was "standard" 2020-07-05T07:51:30Z phoe: https://time.is/pl/CEST 2020-07-05T07:52:24Z beach: OK. 2020-07-05T07:53:05Z beach: And is there more than one presentation? 2020-07-05T07:53:38Z beach: My (admittedly small) family seems to get email from you, but I don't, and idurand does not get any either, I think. 2020-07-05T07:54:01Z matzy_ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T07:54:22Z phoe: huh! 2020-07-05T07:54:31Z phoe: are you subscribed to https://mailman.common-lisp.net/listinfo/online-lisp-meets ? 2020-07-05T07:54:48Z phoe: my mail is there: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/online-lisp-meets/2020-June/000013.html 2020-07-05T07:54:49Z beach: I wasn't aware of its existence. 2020-07-05T07:54:58Z phoe: now you are, then! 2020-07-05T07:55:05Z beach: Yes, thanks. 2020-07-05T07:58:51Z flip214_: Can I print a simple-base-string with a max number of characters, with "..." appended if it is cut short? FORMAT doesn't do that, sb-ext:*print-vector-length* isn't standard. Is there some other *print-...* special I can use? 2020-07-05T07:59:16Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T07:59:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-05T08:00:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T08:02:14Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-05T08:05:04Z phoe: flip214_: AFAIK not 2020-07-05T08:05:11Z phoe: nothing in the standard 2020-07-05T08:06:10Z phoe: beach: hey, SHARED-INITIALIZE is a pleasure to use 2020-07-05T08:06:14Z pve: flip214_: unless you're doing a library, I guess you could define a print-object method that checks if *chop-strings* is non-nil 2020-07-05T08:06:21Z beach: phoe: I agree. 2020-07-05T08:08:41Z beach: pve: What would that method specialize to? 2020-07-05T08:10:30Z pve: beach: not sure.. simple-base-string? 2020-07-05T08:10:35Z phoe: pve: can't 2020-07-05T08:10:42Z beach: That would be non-conforming. 2020-07-05T08:10:56Z pve: then today I learned 2020-07-05T08:11:22Z phoe: you cannot define a method on a standard generic function whose specializers are all standard as well 2020-07-05T08:11:28Z phoe: since these are reserved to the Lisp system 2020-07-05T08:11:51Z phoe: so e.g. you cannot (defmethod print-object ((object string) stream) ...) 2020-07-05T08:12:19Z pve: no fun :( 2020-07-05T08:12:36Z pve: i mean, makes sense 2020-07-05T08:12:58Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-05T08:13:05Z beach: The exact rule is, you can't define a method on a specified generic function that is applicable when given only instances of specified classes. And that rule is not restricted to Common Lisp. It is valid for (well written) libraries as well. 2020-07-05T08:13:29Z phoe: re previous discussion: now I need to figure out whether I want SHARED-INITIALIZE :BEFORE, SHARED-INITIALIZE :AFTER, or disqualified SHARED-INITIALIZE with CALL-NEXT-METHOD inside... 2020-07-05T08:13:33Z phoe: hm 2020-07-05T08:13:52Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T08:14:08Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T08:14:39Z beach: phoe: You want a primary method or an :AROUND method if you need to modify the arguments in some situtations. 2020-07-05T08:14:42Z beach: situations 2020-07-05T08:15:27Z phoe: beach: in this case, I want just to signal an error if validation fails. 2020-07-05T08:15:40Z beach: Then :BEFORE or :AFTER are fine. 2020-07-05T08:16:08Z phoe: ...oh wow! primary/around methods on SHARED-INITIALIZE is immune to that one issue that I've noticed with INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER constructors 2020-07-05T08:16:23Z phoe: namely that the CHECK-TYPE restart misbehaves in INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER 2020-07-05T08:16:57Z phoe: today I became a better Lisp programmer 2020-07-05T08:17:06Z beach: Congratulations! 2020-07-05T08:17:30Z pve: Where does it say you can't do naughty things with print-object? I can't seem to find it.. 2020-07-05T08:18:09Z phoe: clhs 11.1.2.1.2 2020-07-05T08:18:10Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 2020-07-05T08:18:12Z phoe: point 19 2020-07-05T08:18:21Z phoe: "19. Defining a method for a standardized generic function which is applicable when all of the arguments are direct instances of standardized classes." 2020-07-05T08:18:46Z pve: ah, thanks 2020-07-05T08:18:58Z pve: I was reading print-object like an idiot 2020-07-05T08:19:07Z phoe: not really like an idiot 2020-07-05T08:19:17Z phoe: the standard gets some time to get used to 2020-07-05T08:19:25Z phoe: and things inside it are really in weird places sometimes 2020-07-05T08:20:14Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T08:20:44Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-05T08:20:44Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-05T08:20:44Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-05T08:24:46Z beach: phoe: Here is another thing that will make you a (slightly) better programmer. Standard FIND-METHOD takes either a class metaobject or a list (EQL object) in the list of specializers. But accepting a class name is an SBCL extension. 2020-07-05T08:25:25Z beach: phoe: You use this extension to remove a method on PRINT-OBJECT if the :REPORT option is absent. 2020-07-05T08:25:43Z phoe: beach: :REPORT, you mean for conditions? 2020-07-05T08:25:49Z beach: Yes. 2020-07-05T08:26:11Z beach: My current mission is to study your portable condition system. 2020-07-05T08:29:06Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-05T08:29:59Z matzy_: is it possible to check the types of each individual memnber of a list? i'm having a hard time finding function that does that on the hyperspec 2020-07-05T08:30:49Z beach: Are they all of the same type? 2020-07-05T08:34:47Z beach: Or, if not, and if you can describe the types as a regular expression, you can use the RTE technique designed by Jim Newton and Didier Verna. 2020-07-05T08:36:34Z phoe: matzy_: you can, (every (rcurry #'typep 'foo) list) 2020-07-05T08:36:58Z phoe: or, if you want a type-system solution, what beach said 2020-07-05T08:38:14Z matzy_: its confusing, because i'm passing them as URL params in a POST body, but cl-dbi will only take them if I wrap each in double-quotes and even then smashes them into the same column with the column names included 2020-07-05T08:39:22Z matzy_: i'm admitting the first column which is an auto-incrementing id column from my INSERT, but I assume that OK 2020-07-05T08:40:40Z flip214_: phoe: pve: thanks! 2020-07-05T08:41:04Z pve: flip214_: I was wrong, don't do what I said 2020-07-05T08:42:09Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-05T08:43:02Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T08:43:19Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T08:43:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T08:49:05Z isaac joined #lisp 2020-07-05T08:49:12Z isaac is now known as iissaacc 2020-07-05T08:53:21Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-07-05T09:03:02Z phoe: CLOS really is amazing 2020-07-05T09:06:36Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-05T09:08:08Z phoe: making instantiation, reinitialization, and two kinds of updates programmable 2020-07-05T09:12:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T09:13:09Z orivej_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-05T09:14:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-05T09:14:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T09:24:50Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-07-05T09:29:30Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T09:29:49Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T09:29:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T09:30:44Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-05T09:31:53Z KaiLikesLinux left #lisp 2020-07-05T09:32:18Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T09:33:28Z ealfonso quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T09:36:25Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-05T09:36:52Z gaqwas: hello 2020-07-05T09:36:54Z gaqwas: uhm... is this a typo in the HyperSpec? 2020-07-05T09:37:02Z gaqwas: "In an unless form, if the test-form yields *false*, the forms are evaluated[..] Otherwise, if the test-form yields *false* (sic?), the forms are not evaluated, " 2020-07-05T09:37:11Z gaqwas: I'm a beginner 2020-07-05T09:38:33Z phoe: gaqwas: most possible 2020-07-05T09:38:34Z phoe: which page is that? 2020-07-05T09:39:14Z phoe: if it's UNLESS, then it's known 2020-07-05T09:39:18Z phoe: see https://www.cliki.net/ANSI%20Clarifications%20and%20Errata 2020-07-05T09:39:52Z ursuta_ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T09:40:36Z gaqwas: phoe, this page: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_when_.htm 2020-07-05T09:41:05Z gaqwas: ah, okay. Thank you, phoe 2020-07-05T09:45:35Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T09:47:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-05T09:49:02Z aeth: beach: Sorry, I don't recognize the name of the thread's original poster. 2020-07-05T09:55:51Z beach: aeth: OK, not important. Thanks for trying. 2020-07-05T09:58:20Z beach: aeth: I am not use to Hacker News. Is it possible, starting from that link, to back up in the history? 2020-07-05T09:58:41Z aeth: It looks like they posted twice: https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=ska80 2020-07-05T09:58:46Z aeth: once 6 months ago 2020-07-05T09:58:54Z aeth: (posted the link, I mean) 2020-07-05T09:59:04Z aeth: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=ska80 2020-07-05T09:59:05Z beach: I see. Thanks again. 2020-07-05T10:02:03Z beach: It seems I can only get to the thread starting with heisig. 2020-07-05T10:04:29Z aeth: You can click on the [-] to collapse that thread. It's a bit hard to see the left line by default (I actually modify the style locally with a browser plugin) 2020-07-05T10:04:50Z aeth: There are only two other comments outside of that thread 2020-07-05T10:06:39Z beach: OK, thanks. I don't think this stuff was made for me. I wasn't looking to collapse the thread. I was wondering what prompted heisig to talk about CLOSOS, but I see now way to get to the previous message in the thread. 2020-07-05T10:06:49Z orivej_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-05T10:07:06Z beach: Maybe there isn't one, and heisig decided to spontaneously write this. 2020-07-05T10:07:28Z aeth: oh sorry, I guess you haven't seen the website before. The thread is about Closos 2020-07-05T10:07:48Z aeth: These sorts of websites are structured so that there's a link or a text post at the top, and everything else is a threaded reply to it 2020-07-05T10:07:59Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T10:08:00Z aeth: The top level is: Closos: Specification of a Lisp operating system (2013) [pdf] (metamodular.com) which is a link to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730107 2020-07-05T10:08:16Z aeth: so ska80 started the conversation on CLOSOS, not heisig 2020-07-05T10:08:26Z beach: So the first post was just a link to my pdf? 2020-07-05T10:08:27Z beach: OK. 2020-07-05T10:08:39Z aeth: yes 2020-07-05T10:08:46Z stoneglass joined #lisp 2020-07-05T10:08:52Z beach: I get it now. Thanks for all your help. 2020-07-05T10:09:38Z aeth: You're welcome. And, yes, that website design was confusing to me, too, when I first saw it, probably 10 years ago. 2020-07-05T10:10:19Z beach: I can imagine. I don't have time to hang out in yet another place. Especially one with this kind of exchange. So I will probably always be confused. 2020-07-05T10:10:32Z aeth: It's a forum started by Paul Graham, so Lisp stuff sometimes trends on it, but not anywhere near as much as it used to. 2020-07-05T10:11:09Z beach: I think I must have heard that somewhere. 2020-07-05T10:11:18Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-05T10:11:35Z aeth: It is the only known piece of public software written in Arc, the Lisp language that flopped. (Other than Arc implementations themselves, of course.) 2020-07-05T10:11:52Z beach: Interesting. 2020-07-05T10:12:01Z aeth: So I guess that dates the website to 2008. 2020-07-05T10:12:13Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T10:16:19Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-05T10:17:39Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T10:25:13Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-05T10:25:13Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2020-07-05T10:25:14Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-05T10:27:55Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T10:31:14Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T10:33:34Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T10:33:53Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-05T10:34:06Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-07-05T10:34:40Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T10:34:40Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-05T10:36:47Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-07-05T10:39:32Z phoe: Hmmmm 2020-07-05T10:39:56Z phoe: if I want to use CHECK-TYPE properly inside SHARED-INITIALIZE, I assume that I must do that inside an :AROUND or primary method 2020-07-05T10:40:13Z phoe: and then CALL-NEXT-METHOD explicitly with all arguments, in case the CHECK-TYPE restart modifies the variables 2020-07-05T10:40:57Z phoe: seems verbose; I wonder how I can shrink it 2020-07-05T10:44:07Z phoe: hm 2020-07-05T10:44:10Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1940#1940 2020-07-05T10:44:52Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T10:45:06Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T10:45:42Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-07-05T10:46:02Z phoe: that is it for four slots 2020-07-05T10:47:22Z aeth: phoe: You might be approaching the problem wrong. Personally, I type check at slot setting (to cover initialization and setters). Unfortunately, because this uses the MOP, I have to use ASSERT instead of CHECK-TYPE because the type isn't available at compile time. https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zr-utils/-/blob/master/metaobject.lisp 2020-07-05T10:47:29Z aeth: There might be another, better place to intercept things, too. 2020-07-05T10:48:51Z phoe: oh right, typed slots 2020-07-05T10:49:12Z phoe: can I use that with typechecking lists? like, assert that every element of the list is of type FOO 2020-07-05T10:49:19Z aeth: Well, yes and no. You can't rely on :type because SBCL doesn't typecheck at default optimization levels, which means that 80-90% of your users won't actually have typechecks there if you use :type 2020-07-05T10:49:28Z phoe: aeth: I mean *custom* typed slots 2020-07-05T10:49:29Z aeth: You also can't call it :type and override it iirc 2020-07-05T10:49:32Z aeth: So I call it :checked-type 2020-07-05T10:49:35Z aeth: Maybe there's a better name 2020-07-05T10:49:45Z phoe: yes, that sounds okay 2020-07-05T10:50:27Z aeth: phoe: You can of course use a SATISFIES type, but I probably should just make it a generalized precondition/postcondition system since I'm using ASSERT anyway. 2020-07-05T10:50:39Z aeth: (Which probably means up to two asserts per slot.) 2020-07-05T10:51:51Z aeth: I should probably move the file I linked to into its own library because it's independent of my zr-utils and it's pretty much complete and usable, unlike the rest of it. 2020-07-05T10:52:57Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-05T10:53:02Z phoe: tempting 2020-07-05T10:53:10Z phoe: I'll think of using it if/when you do so 2020-07-05T10:53:52Z aeth: The hardest part is probably naming it 2020-07-05T10:54:01Z phoe: "checked-slots" 2020-07-05T10:54:10Z phoe: or "typechecked-slots" 2020-07-05T10:54:27Z phoe: also, line 33 has a bug - it's ASSERT TYPEP, not CHECK-TYPE 2020-07-05T10:54:52Z phoe: and so the established restart is named CONTINUE instead of STORE-VALUE 2020-07-05T10:55:18Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-07-05T10:55:31Z aeth: Well, it wouldn't just be type checked because I'd add a second slot for general assertions, mainly for sequence/etc. checking. 2020-07-05T10:55:33Z phoe: I'd actually be pedantic and manually expand a CHECK-TYPE in there to make it possible to pass the type dynamically at runtime, so the STORE-VALUE restart is preserved 2020-07-05T10:55:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T10:55:39Z phoe: oh! welll then 2020-07-05T10:55:44Z phoe: "pedantic-slots" 2020-07-05T10:55:50Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-07-05T10:56:19Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T10:57:05Z aeth: phoe: How could you use a CHECK-TYPE at all in there? CHECK-TYPE's type isn't quoted. MACROLET? 2020-07-05T10:57:31Z aeth: I don't think I've ever used a MACROLET because they're nearly impossible to debug when someone else uses them. 2020-07-05T10:58:48Z aeth: Although if I guess if I did use a CHECK-TYPE it would probably make the other custom argument fairly obvious: checked-assertion... 2020-07-05T10:59:10Z phoe: aeth: don't 2020-07-05T10:59:35Z phoe: I'd write my own CHECK-TYPE equivalent that evaluates the type argument 2020-07-05T11:01:20Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1941#1941 2020-07-05T11:02:09Z phoe: plus minus ONCE-ONLY on the TYPE variable 2020-07-05T11:02:31Z phoe: one sec, let me fix this... 2020-07-05T11:05:05Z phoe: there 2020-07-05T11:05:17Z phoe: should compile fine 2020-07-05T11:05:28Z phoe: based on quickly and roughly adapted PCS code 2020-07-05T11:06:08Z phoe: feel free to use this code freely since it's CC0 2020-07-05T11:06:19Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-05T11:07:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T11:14:14Z aeth: thanks 2020-07-05T11:14:21Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-05T11:19:14Z phoe: (huh, writing this kind of stuff becomes suspiciously trivial once you've written your own condition system) 2020-07-05T11:21:58Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-05T11:26:28Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-05T11:31:22Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-05T11:31:54Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T11:42:19Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-05T11:43:00Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-05T11:43:38Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T11:47:42Z aeth: phoe: Oh, can you look over my conditions file? https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zr-utils/-/blob/master/conditions.lisp 2020-07-05T11:48:08Z aeth: phoe: Those were the most common (error foo) patterns in my engine so I turned those into define-conditions a while back. 2020-07-05T11:49:08Z aeth: The idea of putting it in my utility library (and I might even move that into its own standalone library) is that that makes it easier for different libraries/programs to use the same conditions 2020-07-05T11:50:58Z phoe: aeth: you don't export accessors 2020-07-05T11:51:33Z aeth: Oh, hmm, I guess I don't. This is why I like exports at the top of the file. Makes it easier to spot that kind of thing. 2020-07-05T11:52:04Z phoe: a unit test suite would have caught this sort of thing - which is why I try to unit test every single thing I can 2020-07-05T11:52:16Z aeth: I didn't want to unit test my util library until I spun it off. 2020-07-05T11:52:23Z aeth: which was fairly recently 2020-07-05T11:52:23Z phoe: gotcha 2020-07-05T11:52:59Z phoe: I'd split longer report functions into their own named functions, but that's a matter of taste 2020-07-05T11:53:48Z aeth: I probably will build those out of helper functions/macros at some point, but I haven't written enough to make clear patterns 2020-07-05T11:54:01Z phoe: and the starting vowel kind of stuff literally begs to be a helper function unto its own 2020-07-05T11:54:22Z phoe: that nested IF also kind of wants to be rewritten as a COND 2020-07-05T11:55:34Z aeth: yeah, I'm not very happy with that lambda in general... it was pretty tricky to write and iirc it was more about getting it to work correctly with the (REPL, not unit) tests. 2020-07-05T11:55:49Z phoe: oh right 2020-07-05T11:55:56Z aeth: Quite a few different branches, but they're all useful because of how common that error is 2020-07-05T11:56:14Z phoe: another reason for unit tests, one can refactor and check if they still pass 2020-07-05T11:56:52Z aeth: Right, which is probably why I haven't refactored it yet 2020-07-05T11:57:37Z aeth: I could probably build required-input-error into another, third assertion in the checked-types metaclass 2020-07-05T12:02:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T12:02:48Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T12:04:25Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T12:05:34Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-07-05T12:05:37Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T12:06:19Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-05T12:07:55Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-07-05T12:08:22Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T12:08:29Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T12:18:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T12:18:40Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T12:20:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-05T12:28:16Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T12:38:49Z matzy_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2020-07-05T12:39:09Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T12:40:59Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-05T12:40:59Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-05T12:40:59Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-05T12:41:37Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T12:47:16Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T12:47:20Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T12:50:22Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T12:54:04Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-07-05T12:59:33Z ym joined #lisp 2020-07-05T13:01:37Z ym: Hi. Should #+t (princ 'test) work? Doesn't work for me with sbcl 2.0.1. 2020-07-05T13:01:37Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T13:02:23Z Bike: #+t means it checks if :t is in *features*, and it probably isn't. 2020-07-05T13:02:34Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T13:02:35Z Inline: heh 2020-07-05T13:02:51Z Bike: you can use #+(and) if you want something facile 2020-07-05T13:02:59Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T13:05:22Z ym: Oh. Got it. Thanks. 2020-07-05T13:11:01Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T13:11:56Z TMA: ym: or #-(or) for one character shorter alternative 2020-07-05T13:25:55Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-05T13:26:25Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T13:26:33Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-05T13:26:41Z fanta1 joined #lisp 2020-07-05T13:29:01Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T13:31:28Z Lycurgus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T13:36:34Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T13:39:20Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-05T13:40:30Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T13:47:39Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T13:49:27Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-07-05T13:49:38Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T13:50:55Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T13:53:01Z libertyprime quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T14:03:04Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-05T14:03:19Z Mawile joined #lisp 2020-07-05T14:04:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T14:06:49Z Archenoth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T14:10:03Z jcowan: aeth: I never thought macrolet/let-syntax made very much sense. "In section 2 of this paper, the notation A ~ B means blablabla, but in all other sections it means bliblibli". Who organizes papers like that? 2020-07-05T14:16:50Z Bike: that seems like more generally a problem with shadowing 2020-07-05T14:16:56Z Bike: which is indeed kinda crap most of the time 2020-07-05T14:17:13Z phoe: you mean lexical shadowing? 2020-07-05T14:18:13Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T14:18:53Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T14:19:22Z Bike: are there other kinds? like in a package i guess? yes, i mean lexical 2020-07-05T14:19:30Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-07-05T14:19:46Z Bike: i use macrolet but not for shadowing 2020-07-05T14:23:06Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-05T14:23:07Z jcowan: In Dijkstra's guarded-command language, if you refer to a variable in an inner block you must redeclare it there 2020-07-05T14:28:35Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-05T14:30:22Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-07-05T14:39:54Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-05T14:41:05Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T14:41:37Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-05T14:46:02Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T14:47:44Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-07-05T14:48:57Z isBEKaml quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-05T14:50:21Z hineios730393479 joined #lisp 2020-07-05T14:50:58Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-05T14:52:44Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T14:56:37Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-07-05T14:58:10Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-05T14:58:13Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T15:00:11Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T15:00:28Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-05T15:00:54Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-05T15:03:11Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-05T15:03:50Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-05T15:06:44Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-05T15:06:55Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T15:12:24Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-05T15:13:49Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-05T15:14:00Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T15:14:12Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T15:14:40Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-05T15:24:31Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-05T15:25:27Z stoneglass quit (Quit: stoneglass) 2020-07-05T15:29:00Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-05T15:30:09Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T15:30:46Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T15:32:52Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T15:34:13Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T15:36:17Z ursuta_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T15:36:55Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T15:37:04Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T15:38:28Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T15:38:54Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T15:42:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T15:43:10Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T15:44:12Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-05T15:48:09Z phoe: aaaa 2020-07-05T15:48:13Z zigpaw quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T15:48:24Z phoe: my SHARED-INITIALIZE method is buggy 2020-07-05T15:49:58Z hineios730393479 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T15:51:34Z zigpaw joined #lisp 2020-07-05T15:54:52Z gjulio joined #lisp 2020-07-05T16:01:04Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T16:02:46Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-05T16:03:51Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T16:06:22Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T16:09:13Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-07-05T16:11:14Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T16:11:56Z phoe: Should (REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE X) generally be a no-op? Is that the idea behind it? 2020-07-05T16:12:00Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T16:12:08Z phoe: I mean, I explicitly provide no initargs there. 2020-07-05T16:13:35Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-05T16:13:49Z beach: Sounds right. 2020-07-05T16:15:07Z beach: I mean, I don't think there is a requirement like that. If you stick an :AROUND method that supplies initargs, I don't think that is illegal. 2020-07-05T16:15:12Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-05T16:15:12Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-05T16:15:12Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-05T16:17:29Z phoe: "The generic function reinitialize-instance can be used to change the values of local slots of an instance according to initargs." 2020-07-05T16:18:03Z phoe: I can kinda infer that if the user supplies no INITARGS then the user may expect nothing to change 2020-07-05T16:18:10Z phoe: but then again, nothing is really set in stone on that CLHS page 2020-07-05T16:18:12Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-05T16:18:17Z phoe: www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_reinit.htm 2020-07-05T16:18:33Z beach: Sure, but it depends on who the "user" is here. 2020-07-05T16:18:33Z phoe: but 2020-07-05T16:18:35Z phoe: clhs 7.3 2020-07-05T16:18:35Z specbot: Reinitializing an Instance: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_c.htm 2020-07-05T16:18:44Z phoe: "The process of reinitialization changes the values of some slots (...)" 2020-07-05T16:18:55Z phoe: okay then, mutation can freely happen 2020-07-05T16:21:46Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T16:22:50Z phoe: the initialization subsystem of CLOS is fascinating 2020-07-05T16:22:55Z Bike: what are you expecting to call reinitialize-instance with no kwargs anyway? 2020-07-05T16:23:32Z phoe: Bike: because I can - "This generic function can be called by users." 2020-07-05T16:23:42Z phoe: and mostly to verify that my custom methods don't break stuff 2020-07-05T16:24:07Z phoe: I ran into an issue where my buggy code cleared out values of slots after calling REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE with no initargs 2020-07-05T16:24:16Z phoe: and that definitely was not my intent 2020-07-05T16:24:20Z Bike: yeah that's definitely wrong at least. 2020-07-05T16:24:34Z Bike: but if you want reinitialize-instance to refresh its place in an external store or something that would probably be okay. 2020-07-05T16:24:36Z midre joined #lisp 2020-07-05T16:24:46Z phoe: I mean, yes, it *may* be correct in some contexts 2020-07-05T16:25:02Z Bike: since you're the user in this scenario, it can do whatever 2020-07-05T16:25:08Z phoe: yep 2020-07-05T16:25:53Z momozor joined #lisp 2020-07-05T16:37:00Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T16:37:37Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-05T16:37:58Z momozor quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-05T16:38:43Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T16:38:53Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T16:48:14Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T16:48:21Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T17:06:20Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-05T17:07:41Z bsd4me quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T17:14:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T17:16:05Z aeth joined #lisp 2020-07-05T17:21:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T17:21:31Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2020-07-05T17:23:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-05T17:26:50Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-05T17:28:10Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T17:36:41Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T17:37:10Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-05T17:40:27Z fanta1 quit (Quit: fanta1) 2020-07-05T17:41:49Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-07-05T17:41:56Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T17:44:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T17:45:21Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T17:51:01Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-05T17:52:07Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-05T17:54:30Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T17:55:35Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T17:55:50Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T17:55:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-05T18:00:51Z catern quit (Excess Flood) 2020-07-05T18:01:48Z catern joined #lisp 2020-07-05T18:02:13Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T18:03:10Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T18:05:03Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T18:05:19Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T18:07:54Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T18:08:13Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-05T18:08:35Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T18:08:55Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T18:11:53Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-07-05T18:12:13Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T18:12:49Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T18:18:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T18:18:49Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T18:18:59Z frgo quit 2020-07-05T18:20:40Z hdasch joined #lisp 2020-07-05T18:21:45Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-05T18:24:39Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-05T18:24:57Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-05T18:26:01Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T18:33:22Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T18:33:59Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T18:34:09Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-07-05T18:41:50Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-07-05T18:44:15Z OpenZen joined #lisp 2020-07-05T18:59:45Z _paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T19:00:06Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-07-05T19:11:54Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T19:14:50Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-05T19:18:10Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-07-05T19:28:36Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-05T19:33:55Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-07-05T19:34:51Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-05T19:36:50Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-05T19:38:09Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T19:38:11Z pimpom joined #lisp 2020-07-05T19:38:24Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T19:40:20Z drainful quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-05T19:41:09Z pimpom: Can I "expand a list" an pass the contents as input to a function in CL? E.g. I have some function (defun some-fun (arg1 &rest args) ...) and want to pass "args" as several arguments to another function call within this function. 2020-07-05T19:41:20Z Bike: clhs apply 2020-07-05T19:41:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 2020-07-05T19:41:27Z Bike: use that. 2020-07-05T19:44:31Z pimpom: That worked, thanks! 2020-07-05T19:48:49Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-05T19:56:42Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-07-05T20:01:14Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T20:04:19Z pimpom quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.0.90)) 2020-07-05T20:08:50Z nabataeus quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-07-05T20:10:38Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T20:10:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T20:12:02Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-05T20:14:09Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-07-05T20:14:29Z epony quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-05T20:14:29Z q-u-a-n22 quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-05T20:14:29Z 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connection) 2020-07-05T21:52:51Z ayuce quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T21:58:22Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-07-05T21:59:29Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-07-05T22:04:35Z holycow quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T22:10:21Z gjulio_ joined #lisp 2020-07-05T22:11:04Z userone joined #lisp 2020-07-05T22:12:52Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-05T22:16:10Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-05T22:20:13Z Bike: phoe: with sbcl's interface, call add-package-local-nickname for one, i guess. gets annoying if you also want to be able to reeevaluate defpackage forms without complaint, tho 2020-07-05T22:21:25Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T22:21:31Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-07-05T22:22:11Z phoe: Bike: I got UIOP:DEFINE-PACKAGE for all my reevaluation needs 2020-07-05T22:29:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T22:30:33Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-05T22:31:02Z JohnTalent joined #lisp 2020-07-05T22:32:10Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 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I fixed the two issues you spotted and I'm going to think about how to approach the typecheck soon. 2020-07-06T00:16:22Z aeth: I'm not sure if I'll do that right away or if I'll do some graphics stuff first. I haven't done any graphics in a while and I'm thinking of some simple (3D, but effectively behaving the same as isometric) tiles. 2020-07-06T00:19:03Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-06T00:21:12Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T00:22:03Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-06T00:23:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T00:23:19Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-06T00:25:20Z userone joined #lisp 2020-07-06T00:28:51Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-06T00:34:39Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2020-07-06T00:44:34Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T00:44:52Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T00:52:22Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-06T00:59:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T01:00:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T01:04:40Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T01:07:01Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-06T01:07:41Z MidHotaru joined #lisp 2020-07-06T01:10:25Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-06T01:15:26Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T01:18:12Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T01:22:38Z gjulio_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T01:23:06Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T01:23:35Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T01:26:04Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-07-06T01:28:11Z gjulio_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T01:32:04Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-06T01:36:42Z JohnTalent quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T01:36:49Z gjulio_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T01:37:52Z userone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T01:42:41Z gjulio_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T01:50:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-06T01:54:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-06T01:54:40Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-07-06T01:54:45Z ldb: helo 2020-07-06T01:55:51Z GuerrillaMonkey joined #lisp 2020-07-06T01:57:36Z kleptoflora joined #lisp 2020-07-06T01:57:40Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T01:58:13Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T02:00:13Z philadendrite quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T02:10:47Z ldb quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-06T02:11:42Z TwoNotes joined #lisp 2020-07-06T02:12:17Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-06T02:13:00Z akoana left #lisp 2020-07-06T02:23:29Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-06T02:26:55Z TwoNotes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T02:33:57Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-06T02:45:16Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T02:51:44Z freshpassport joined #lisp 2020-07-06T02:58:26Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-07-06T03:00:58Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-07-06T03:05:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-06T03:08:47Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-06T03:14:37Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-06T03:17:28Z MidHotaru quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-06T03:32:34Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-06T03:35:37Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-06T03:47:37Z justache quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2020-07-06T03:49:33Z justache joined #lisp 2020-07-06T04:05:10Z justache quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2020-07-06T04:05:47Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T04:06:37Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-06T04:08:22Z justache joined #lisp 2020-07-06T04:08:36Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-06T04:10:24Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-07-06T04:14:17Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T04:14:24Z justache quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2020-07-06T04:16:38Z justache joined #lisp 2020-07-06T04:18:25Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-07-06T04:26:33Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-06T04:28:01Z OpenZen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T04:35:10Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T04:36:19Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-06T04:37:05Z GuerrillaMonkey quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-06T04:43:26Z datajerk quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.3 - https://znc.in) 2020-07-06T04:45:54Z datajerk joined #lisp 2020-07-06T05:05:09Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-06T05:13:25Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T05:13:45Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-06T05:31:05Z iarebatman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T05:32:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T05:32:20Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T05:35:34Z ErichHyuuga joined #lisp 2020-07-06T05:36:32Z Harag joined #lisp 2020-07-06T05:36:40Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-06T05:37:16Z madrik joined #lisp 2020-07-06T05:38:12Z madrik: If certain keyword arguments are accepted only by one Lisp and not another, how should I write the feature conditionals? 2020-07-06T05:39:21Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-06T05:41:15Z ErichHyuuga: hey guys 2020-07-06T05:41:15Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T05:42:43Z beach: Hello ErichHyuuga. 2020-07-06T05:42:56Z ErichHyuuga: Eat my diarrhea 2020-07-06T05:42:57Z ErichHyuuga: Just... 2020-07-06T05:42:58Z ErichHyuuga: Just ate a burger at the sleazy joint 2020-07-06T05:43:00Z ErichHyuuga: Now I gotta take a shit, get to the point 2020-07-06T05:43:03Z ErichHyuuga: Sittin' on the toilet, my ass is a blast 2020-07-06T05:43:05Z ErichHyuuga: Runnin' smelly diarrhea outta my ass 2020-07-06T05:43:09Z ErichHyuuga: No f*ckin' paper 2020-07-06T05:43:11Z ErichHyuuga: Hey baby lick my ass 'til your face turns blue 2020-07-06T05:43:13Z ErichHyuuga: You're finished rimmin' me and you want some more 2020-07-06T05:43:15Z ErichHyuuga: Ya say ya don't flush but your out the door 2020-07-06T05:43:17Z ErichHyuuga: I'm back in the...with a cup 2020-07-06T05:43:19Z ErichHyuuga: Scoop it outta the toilet 'cause you wanna slurp it up 2020-07-06T05:43:21Z ErichHyuuga: Eat my diarrhea you're chuggin' it down 2020-07-06T05:43:23Z ErichHyuuga: You're suckin' my ass and your lips are all brown 2020-07-06T05:43:25Z ErichHyuuga: Since we've gone back to the hamburger place 2020-07-06T05:43:28Z ErichHyuuga: I'm gonna stick my ass right on your face 2020-07-06T05:43:29Z ErichHyuuga: I'm gonna shit in your mouth 2020-07-06T05:43:33Z ErichHyuuga: I'm gonna shit in your face, your mouth 2020-07-06T05:43:36Z ErichHyuuga: And I wanna shit on your mother 2020-07-06T05:43:37Z ErichHyuuga: I'm gonna shit on you and your mother 2020-07-06T05:43:40Z ErichHyuuga: Diarrhea 2020-07-06T05:43:42Z ErichHyuuga: I gotta take a shit 2020-07-06T05:43:43Z ErichHyuuga: Gotta bottle a Ex-Lax, gonna take it 2020-07-06T05:43:45Z ErichHyuuga: I'm gonna take me a lumpy shit 2020-07-06T05:43:47Z ErichHyuuga: Gonna throw it at you, I hope I hit you 2020-07-06T05:43:51Z ErichHyuuga: I hope it splats in your face there too 2020-07-06T05:43:52Z ErichHyuuga: It's comin' out my ass all drippin' wet 2020-07-06T05:43:53Z ErichHyuuga: It's comin' out my ass all drippin' wet 2020-07-06T05:43:53Z beach: madrik: That depends a lot. 2020-07-06T05:43:55Z ErichHyuuga: I want you to suck up all of it 2020-07-06T05:43:57Z ErichHyuuga: Lick my ass and eat it too 2020-07-06T05:43:59Z ErichHyuuga: Cause diarrhea is good for you 2020-07-06T05:44:03Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-06T05:44:03Z ErichHyuuga: Ya eat it, eat it, eat 2020-07-06T05:44:05Z ErichHyuuga: Eat it, eat it, eat 2020-07-06T05:44:08Z ErichHyuuga: Diarrhea 2020-07-06T05:44:09Z ErichHyuuga: Eat my f*ckin' shit 2020-07-06T05:44:37Z beach: madrik: It depends on whether different implementations require the argument, or whether it is optional. 2020-07-06T05:44:50Z carleos quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T05:45:27Z ErichHyuuga quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T05:46:39Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-07-06T05:47:04Z madrik: beach: E.g. CCL has a :SHARING keyword argument for WITH-OPEN-FILE, which takes one of three values. 2020-07-06T05:47:34Z madrik: Right now, I have this: #+ccl :sharing #+ccl :external 2020-07-06T05:47:55Z beach: I don't think you can do better. 2020-07-06T05:48:05Z madrik: Okay, thanks. 2020-07-06T05:48:22Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-06T05:49:06Z beach: If they are the last ones, you might get away with something like (bla bla . #ccl (:sharing :external)). 2020-07-06T05:49:16Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T05:49:23Z beach: Nah, that won't work. 2020-07-06T05:50:12Z beach: It would have to be #+ccl (:sharing :external) #-ccl '() 2020-07-06T05:50:21Z beach: You get the picture. Not an improvement. 2020-07-06T05:50:34Z madrik: Yes. 2020-07-06T05:50:51Z bsd4me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T05:53:50Z JohnMS_WORK joined #lisp 2020-07-06T05:56:43Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T06:05:06Z gjulio_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T06:09:22Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T06:12:01Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T06:12:04Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T06:16:04Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T06:16:17Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-06T06:17:09Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T06:19:40Z zigpaw quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T06:21:42Z zigpaw joined #lisp 2020-07-06T06:24:19Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T06:24:39Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-06T06:26:26Z mindCrime quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-07-06T06:27:50Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T06:30:31Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T06:33:41Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-07-06T06:37:39Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-06T06:48:57Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-06T07:14:47Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-06T07:14:47Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-06T07:14:47Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-06T07:17:40Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T07:17:56Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T07:23:04Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-07-06T07:25:46Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T07:38:57Z freshpassport quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2020-07-06T07:41:40Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T07:44:26Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-06T07:44:26Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2020-07-06T07:44:26Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-06T07:46:41Z madrik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T07:46:49Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T07:48:38Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-06T07:50:40Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-06T07:50:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T07:58:37Z stoneglass joined #lisp 2020-07-06T07:59:57Z matzy_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:01:01Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:01:25Z matzy_: can you connect mito to a remote database, like one on RDS? I tried passing :host and :port to mito:connect-toplevel but I think that's where my error is coming from 2020-07-06T08:01:33Z joels: Hello all 2020-07-06T08:04:40Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:05:45Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:07:02Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:07:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T08:08:15Z beach: Hello joels. 2020-07-06T08:13:55Z matzy_: nvm i'm stupid 2020-07-06T08:17:25Z vms14 joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:17:32Z Harag joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:17:45Z vms14: how can I implement the qw function of perl in lisp? 2020-07-06T08:18:00Z Harag: I am working my way through left over lambda, tyring the code of 2020-07-06T08:18:00Z Harag: (defmacro/g! nif ...) I get undefined variable g!result. Is there 2020-07-06T08:18:00Z Harag: something wrong with the code of defmacro/g! in then online version of 2020-07-06T08:18:00Z Harag: the book or am I doing something wrong? 2020-07-06T08:18:10Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:18:12Z tich joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:18:14Z vms14: I want something like (qw there are strings there) 2020-07-06T08:18:15Z Harag: eish sorry about that broken post 2020-07-06T08:18:34Z beach: vms14: It is much better if you tell people what you want it to do, rather than assuming people know Perl. 2020-07-06T08:18:35Z vms14: and being converted to ("there" "are" "strings" "there") 2020-07-06T08:18:45Z vms14: beach: I was doing that 2020-07-06T08:19:05Z beach: vms14: Well, first of all, qw can't be written as a function. 2020-07-06T08:19:21Z vms14: the thing is, if I make a macro, and convert symbols to strings, the print case won't let me have mixed case,not? 2020-07-06T08:19:21Z beach: Because functions evaluate their arguments, and you apparently don't want that. 2020-07-06T08:19:30Z rogersm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T08:19:43Z vms14: I only see in *print-case* :downcase :capitalize and :upcase 2020-07-06T08:20:00Z beach: Well, if you use default reader settings, then it is already too late by the time the symbol is being read. 2020-07-06T08:20:11Z vms14: then it has to be a reader macro? 2020-07-06T08:20:30Z vms14: seems the way, thanks 2020-07-06T08:20:52Z beach: It is going to be hard to keep that syntax in a reader macro. 2020-07-06T08:21:01Z vms14: then what I should aim at? 2020-07-06T08:21:38Z beach: In my opinion, you should forget about imitating the surface syntax of a language with a surface syntax that is as different from that of Common Lisp as this one seems to be. 2020-07-06T08:21:58Z beach: Or else, if Perl syntax is what you want, then don't use READ. 2020-07-06T08:22:08Z beach: Write a parser for Perl instead. 2020-07-06T08:22:25Z vms14: I just want a function/macro that turns symbols to strings 2020-07-06T08:22:38Z beach: Oh, that one is easy. 2020-07-06T08:22:39Z vms14: but, without touching the case 2020-07-06T08:22:46Z beach: That one is easy too. 2020-07-06T08:22:52Z jackdaniel: how about (string 'foo) ;? 2020-07-06T08:23:17Z beach: vms14: symbol-name does not touch the case. 2020-07-06T08:23:24Z vms14: oh, thanks 2020-07-06T08:23:39Z beach: vms14: Try (symbol-name '|aBcD|) for instance. 2020-07-06T08:24:14Z vms14: but they'll have to be between || ? 2020-07-06T08:24:17Z phoe: yes 2020-07-06T08:24:26Z phoe: it's the reader itself that upcases or downcases symbols 2020-07-06T08:24:37Z phoe: so you'll need a reader macro for that 2020-07-06T08:24:43Z vms14: thanks phoe 2020-07-06T08:24:53Z vms14: I'll try with a reader macro then 2020-07-06T08:24:58Z beach: phoe: But then vms14 can't easily write (qw ....). 2020-07-06T08:24:59Z vms14: also an excuse to learn 2020-07-06T08:25:15Z flip214_: vms14: It might look like #q(...) 2020-07-06T08:25:15Z vms14: but the reason is to not type "" for every string 2020-07-06T08:25:28Z phoe: beach: it's impossible to write that either way without a custom reader 2020-07-06T08:25:31Z vms14: if I have to use || it's almost the same 2020-07-06T08:25:41Z phoe: by the time macroexpansion happens all the symbols are already upcased 2020-07-06T08:25:59Z beach: vms14: I think it is a really bad idea to do what you seem to want. 2020-07-06T08:26:07Z phoe: vms14: if you need to use a reader macro it'll look like #{Hello world} 2020-07-06T08:26:13Z phoe: which is also almost the same 2020-07-06T08:26:31Z phoe: (mostly because || and "" are reader macros under the hood, too) 2020-07-06T08:26:36Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:26:47Z vms14: didn't know "" was a reader macro 2020-07-06T08:26:49Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T08:26:51Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:27:03Z phoe: hey, so are the parentheses 2020-07-06T08:27:08Z vms14: :O 2020-07-06T08:27:09Z phoe: and so is the quotation mark 2020-07-06T08:27:24Z beach: clhs " 2020-07-06T08:27:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_de.htm 2020-07-06T08:27:25Z phoe: it's really turtles all the way down, until you hit the GC 2020-07-06T08:27:36Z vms14: the quotation mark, yes, just syntax sugar for (quote) 2020-07-06T08:27:44Z flip214_: vms14: when I came over from Perl, I tried to make CL more similar to Perl, too. 2020-07-06T08:28:01Z vms14: flip214_: and what did you achieve? 2020-07-06T08:28:05Z phoe: vms14: parentheses are just syntax sugar for READ-DELIMITED-LIST 2020-07-06T08:28:31Z flip214_: After some more practice I found out that most of that stuff isn't necessary ... CL-PPCRE:SCAN is a bit longer than /../, but it gives more results back anyway 2020-07-06T08:28:54Z flip214_: so I got around to like the verbose Lisp way -- it's more readable over the long run anyway 2020-07-06T08:28:58Z vms14: I'm actually mixing perl and lisp by using sockets and perl eval XD 2020-07-06T08:29:24Z vms14: in netbsd I have some troubles, like no threads in sbcl, and most of libraries won't work 2020-07-06T08:29:32Z vms14: so perl will be the lisp libraries 2020-07-06T08:29:51Z vms14: actually using sdl from perl, and wanting to do the logic in lisp 2020-07-06T08:31:04Z flip214_: why not embrace lisp symbols, and just serialize them as strings to perl? 2020-07-06T08:31:12Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-06T08:31:36Z flip214_: I did a reader macro that kept case for me; then I could write §MixedCase-Symbol or §(Mixed List) 2020-07-06T08:31:53Z flip214_: I needed that for JSON serialization (right case for keys) 2020-07-06T08:31:53Z vms14: just wanted to have the qw function in lisp 2020-07-06T08:32:16Z phoe: can't do that without a reader macro 2020-07-06T08:32:22Z vms14: yeah, I'll try 2020-07-06T08:32:30Z vms14: thanks phoe 2020-07-06T08:33:02Z phoe: I assume you could do stuff like #{foo bar baz QuUx} that evaluates to ("foo" "bar" "baz" "QuUx") 2020-07-06T08:34:45Z vms14: that's what I want 2020-07-06T08:35:17Z phoe: totally doable with a reader macro then 2020-07-06T08:36:07Z anatrope joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:38:28Z beach: vms14: According to what you said, that is NOT what you want. You said you wanted to be able to write (qw ...). 2020-07-06T08:38:49Z vms14: yes, but the only way seems to be a reader macro 2020-07-06T08:38:57Z vms14: so qw{} it's kinda fine 2020-07-06T08:39:00Z kleptoflora quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T08:39:01Z vms14: or alike 2020-07-06T08:39:13Z vms14: and even more alike to perl 2020-07-06T08:39:30Z beach: vms14: It is mystery to me why that particular reader macro is acceptable, but (qw ".." "...") is not. 2020-07-06T08:39:52Z vms14: cause the reason is I'm lazy to put "" 2020-07-06T08:39:54Z vms14: xd 2020-07-06T08:40:22Z vms14: and it's a nice excuse to learn how to make a reader macro, which always wanted to do 2020-07-06T08:40:30Z beach: Good luck! 2020-07-06T08:40:36Z vms14: thanks :D 2020-07-06T08:40:51Z JohnMS_WORK quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T08:44:11Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-06T08:45:18Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:45:31Z JohnMS_WORK joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:52:16Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:54:04Z phoe: huh 2020-07-06T08:54:09Z phoe: where is the bug in this code? https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1943#1943 2020-07-06T08:54:27Z phoe: when copypasted to a REPL, it works fine in terminal but hangs in SLIME 2020-07-06T08:55:07Z phoe: vms14: also qw{} will not work 2020-07-06T08:55:25Z phoe: QW will get interpreted as a symbol 2020-07-06T08:55:33Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-06T08:56:31Z vms14: atm is just {} 2020-07-06T08:56:37Z phoe: OK, that will work 2020-07-06T08:56:41Z vms14: but i have to learn how reader macros work 2020-07-06T08:56:51Z phoe: vms14: https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402 2020-07-06T08:57:06Z pve: phoe: are you sure the arguments to qw-reader should be like that? Wasn't it (stream character number)? 2020-07-06T08:57:35Z phoe: pve: oh right 2020-07-06T08:57:43Z Harag: when using flatten in a macro it returns stuff like ,G!RESULT as sb-impl:comma and should I be seening that or getting G!RESULT as a a symbol? 2020-07-06T08:57:54Z phoe: Harag: see the errata for LoL 2020-07-06T08:58:04Z Harag: ok thanx 2020-07-06T08:58:38Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T08:58:50Z phoe: pve: you fixed it! thank you 2020-07-06T08:58:55Z pve: great 2020-07-06T08:59:18Z phoe: vms14: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1943#1943 2020-07-06T08:59:43Z vms14: xD I was looking that, you made it for me 2020-07-06T08:59:44Z vms14: <3 2020-07-06T09:00:26Z phoe: just an exercise to ensure that I know how to write dispatch reader macros (hint: I obviously don't fully know, as you can see above) 2020-07-06T09:00:43Z phoe: feel free to read it and then try to write it yourself based on the article I posted - it's a good one 2020-07-06T09:00:57Z vms14: thanks man 2020-07-06T09:01:00Z phoe: pve: thanks for the assist 2020-07-06T09:01:14Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-06T09:01:18Z pve: np 2020-07-06T09:07:02Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T09:12:04Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T09:12:20Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-06T09:12:39Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2020-07-06T09:12:41Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T09:22:29Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-06T09:22:55Z vms14: phoe https://termbin.com/bf4l 2020-07-06T09:22:58Z vms14: that's my version 2020-07-06T09:23:03Z vms14: it adds a function 2020-07-06T09:23:14Z vms14: {function string1 string2 string3...} 2020-07-06T09:23:41Z vms14: thanks phoe, I wouldn't make it if you weren't helping me 2020-07-06T09:24:32Z phoe: you don't want that last line 2020-07-06T09:24:47Z vms14: it gives me error then 2020-07-06T09:24:51Z phoe: first of all, it's an argument count mismatch, since the function must accept two arguments 2020-07-06T09:25:06Z phoe: second, it should signal an error, since a lone closing delimiter is a programmer error 2020-07-06T09:25:20Z vms14: but it fails if I put {something more} 2020-07-06T09:25:30Z vms14: only works if there is a space at the end 2020-07-06T09:25:35Z vms14: like {something more } 2020-07-06T09:25:43Z phoe: shouldn't 2020-07-06T09:25:45Z vms14: if I put the last line, it works 2020-07-06T09:25:52Z beach: Set the syntax of } to be that of ) 2020-07-06T09:25:59Z phoe: yes, but not because of the reason you are thinking 2020-07-06T09:26:04Z phoe: SET-MACRO-CHARACTER will cause #\} to be a terminating macro character 2020-07-06T09:26:23Z phoe: where "terminating" means that the reader will not include it as a part of tokens 2020-07-06T09:26:42Z phoe: so (set-macro-character #\} (lambda (c s) (declare (ignore c s)) (error "Lone closing delimiter))) or what beach said 2020-07-06T09:27:04Z phoe: ...more or less, I'm missing a closing doublequote 2020-07-06T09:27:17Z vms14: then something is wrong I guess 2020-07-06T09:27:32Z vms14: cause I had this error when I don't put a space at the end 2020-07-06T09:27:51Z vms14: I'll restart slime and see what it does now 2020-07-06T09:28:01Z vms14: maybe it was a mistake that I've done before 2020-07-06T09:28:13Z phoe: you most likely got that because #\} was not a terminating macro character 2020-07-06T09:28:23Z phoe: that's why it's important to set it to be a terminating macro character 2020-07-06T09:30:00Z beach: phoe: Are you sure your technique is portable? 2020-07-06T09:30:33Z phoe: beach: what do you mean? 2020-07-06T09:30:33Z beach: As I recall, in Eclector, we actually have a valid action associated with #\). 2020-07-06T09:31:03Z beach: So (again, as I recall), READ-DELIMITED-LIST doesn't actually consume the #\). 2020-07-06T09:31:14Z phoe: it does 2020-07-06T09:31:20Z phoe: "If it is char, then the character is consumed and the list of objects is returned." 2020-07-06T09:31:27Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_del.htm 2020-07-06T09:31:52Z beach: Ah, I see. Thanks. 2020-07-06T09:31:52Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-06T09:32:32Z phoe: if I understand the reader algorithm correctly, parsing the delimiter is actually the duty of the reading function 2020-07-06T09:32:49Z phoe: that's why the delimiter alone is allowed to just error if it's encountered 2020-07-06T09:32:56Z beach: Maybe so. It has been a long time since I worked on the reader. 2020-07-06T09:32:58Z phoe: and R-D-L behaves just like that 2020-07-06T09:33:19Z beach: phoe: You know a lot of Common Lisp now! Congratulations! 2020-07-06T09:33:49Z beach: That's why I would like you to work on SICL. :) 2020-07-06T09:35:33Z vms14: the sad part is now that it works, it won't serve for my original purpose xD 2020-07-06T09:35:58Z phoe: vms14: what was the original purpose 2020-07-06T09:36:08Z vms14: I have a function named modules that takes a list of arguments and makes perl load those modules 2020-07-06T09:36:18Z vms14: the sad part is modules in perl are in This::Form 2020-07-06T09:36:31Z vms14: and that makes lisp think I want to refer to a package xd 2020-07-06T09:36:42Z vms14: so I need to put "" anyways 2020-07-06T09:36:50Z phoe: nah 2020-07-06T09:36:53Z vms14: but it was nice to make a reader macro and understand them a bit better 2020-07-06T09:36:54Z phoe: modify your reader macro some more 2020-07-06T09:37:05Z beach: Or use Eclector. 2020-07-06T09:37:08Z phoe: ^ 2020-07-06T09:37:17Z beach: It lets you configure the interpretation of tokens. 2020-07-06T09:37:41Z jackdaniel: or use esrap if it is only about parsing code 2020-07-06T09:37:54Z beach: It is high time to stamp out implementation-specific readers anyway. 2020-07-06T09:37:59Z vms14: then I have to change the read-delimited-list and read it manually? 2020-07-06T09:38:16Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-07-06T09:38:41Z jackdaniel: https://scymtym.github.io/esrap/ 2020-07-06T09:39:19Z matzy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T09:39:54Z phoe: vms14: yes 2020-07-06T09:39:59Z phoe: mostly because READ will attempt to read symbols 2020-07-06T09:40:04Z phoe: and that will badly break 2020-07-06T09:41:01Z phoe: inside a loop with WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING, read-chars until you read whitespace 2020-07-06T09:41:08Z phoe: collect the list of strings until you hit #\} 2020-07-06T09:41:13Z phoe: at which point, return it 2020-07-06T09:41:30Z phoe: it's literally a function that works on a Lisp stream and pops chars from it 2020-07-06T09:46:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-07-06T09:48:07Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-06T09:48:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-06T09:51:45Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-06T09:51:58Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-07-06T09:54:04Z freshpassport joined #lisp 2020-07-06T09:55:43Z vms14: I'll try later 2020-07-06T09:55:50Z vms14: see you guys, and thanks for the help 2020-07-06T09:56:06Z vms14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T09:58:25Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T09:58:43Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-06T10:12:11Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-06T10:15:49Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T10:27:16Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-06T10:27:25Z fbmnds joined #lisp 2020-07-06T10:27:42Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-06T10:29:03Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-06T10:30:26Z fbmnds: I was advised to repeat my 'post' from Saturday on a working day 2020-07-06T10:30:34Z fbmnds: hence: I'd like to know whether there is interest in this community to dig into EQL5 in essence to be able to further maintain this project. From what I understood going through the code base, EQL5 is based on witty design ideas and allows for cross platform GUI development (the examples apps work nice on my Android mobile, too - iOS is also 2020-07-06T10:30:35Z fbmnds: supported). 2020-07-06T10:32:40Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T10:35:07Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-06T10:35:30Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-07-06T10:36:27Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-06T10:36:33Z phoe: fbmnds: I'd certainly be interested if it becomes cross-implementation in result 2020-07-06T10:36:34Z flip214_: minion: memo for vms14: If you have your own reader macro, you could also make #\: a constituent character within this list... then you could (READ-DELIMITED-LIST) in your own *PACKAGE* and get symbols like |This::Form| 2020-07-06T10:36:34Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell vms14 when he/she/it next speaks. 2020-07-06T10:37:02Z phoe: flip214_: is that portable? 2020-07-06T10:37:14Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-06T10:37:43Z flip214_: phoe: I guess that within your own readtable a COPY-SYNTAX from #\x to #\: should be conforming?! 2020-07-06T10:37:49Z phoe: ;; Online Lisp Meeting #4 starting in 22 minutes at https://www.twitch.tv/TwitchPlaysCommonLisp ;; 2020-07-06T10:38:14Z phoe: flip214_: the issue is that #\: has a NIL character macro function on my machine 2020-07-06T10:38:45Z phoe: I don't know if it's possible to portably tell Lisp to not treat a character as a package marker 2020-07-06T10:39:47Z beach: Yes, the #\: is not a macro character. 2020-07-06T10:39:47Z fbmnds: phoe: what would be a use case of what you are interested in? 2020-07-06T10:40:30Z phoe: fbmnds: developing Qt5 applications on SBCL/CCL for Windows/Linux/macOS 2020-07-06T10:40:52Z phoe: so something that is currently solved by commonqt/qtools, except they are qt4 2020-07-06T10:42:04Z fbmnds: phoe: afaik, I do not think that this will work with EQL5 - a switched from SBCL to ECL because of that 2020-07-06T10:42:51Z phoe: I'll stay with qtools then 2020-07-06T10:42:54Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-06T10:44:42Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-07-06T10:45:37Z fbmnds: phoe: I see - did not know this 2020-07-06T10:51:58Z phoe: jackdaniel: technical nitpick: is EQL5 allowed to be MIT? It seems to include minor modified snippets from ECL sources, see https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5-Android/-/blob/master/utils/EQL5-symbols.lisp#L20102 (warning: huge file) 2020-07-06T10:53:01Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T10:53:04Z phoe: that's a more general question I guess - if a package patches some other code by including and evaluating modified snippets of its source, does the copyleft virality also apply? 2020-07-06T10:53:15Z phoe: boy, things are interesting in the Lisp world 2020-07-06T10:54:57Z rgherdt: phoe: I would say yes, that doesn't seem to be different than other languages 2020-07-06T10:56:14Z beach: Another thing that other languages apparently have been stealing from us. 2020-07-06T10:59:14Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-06T10:59:18Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-07-06T10:59:19Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T10:59:29Z phoe: ;; Online Lisp Meeting #4 starting now. https://www.twitch.tv/TwitchPlaysCommonLisp 2020-07-06T11:02:45Z dim: beach: Imitation is the Sincerest Form of Flattery, they say, right? 2020-07-06T11:03:17Z beach: Absolutely. 2020-07-06T11:04:25Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T11:06:10Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-06T11:08:40Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-07-06T11:08:54Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-07-06T11:10:03Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-06T11:12:21Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2020-07-06T11:14:40Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-06T11:18:49Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T11:20:57Z userone joined #lisp 2020-07-06T11:31:42Z flip214_: phoe: https://gist.github.com/phmarek/5efca753394112c40a32905fd30c8ef9 2020-07-06T11:33:35Z jackdaniel: phoe: it does not bother me, but if it did then I'm sure it could ve resoved by upstreaming necessary changes 2020-07-06T11:33:53Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-06T11:34:09Z phoe: flip214_: a§toni§hing 2020-07-06T11:34:13Z flip214_: beach: they didn't steal, we still have it 2020-07-06T11:34:13Z phoe: jackdaniel: OK 2020-07-06T11:34:41Z jackdaniel: technically speaking I think that your concern has merit and I'm sure PR would be cooperative if it becomes a problem 2020-07-06T11:34:48Z flip214_: phoe: well, you can just use 🖈 as well 2020-07-06T11:37:00Z duuqnd joined #lisp 2020-07-06T11:42:08Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-06T11:43:22Z fbmnds quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-07-06T11:44:44Z userone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T11:52:54Z mangul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-06T11:58:21Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-06T11:58:33Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-06T12:00:28Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-06T12:01:27Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-06T12:02:04Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-06T12:06:51Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-07-06T12:07:17Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-06T12:07:44Z phoe: ooookay then 2020-07-06T12:09:24Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-06T12:11:08Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-07-06T12:15:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T12:16:32Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T12:18:24Z flip214_: to "pin" the letters to their cases ;) 2020-07-06T12:21:34Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-06T12:29:31Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T12:36:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-06T12:37:04Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-06T12:43:06Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T12:49:24Z Necktwi quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-06T12:51:26Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-07-06T12:52:00Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-06T12:53:09Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-06T12:53:20Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-06T12:55:55Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-07-06T12:58:51Z shka_: is sbcl boxing double-floats in simple-vector? 2020-07-06T12:59:36Z phoe: shka_: AFAIK yes 2020-07-06T13:00:31Z phoe: since a double is 64 bits, it can't really stay unboxed if tagging bits are needed 2020-07-06T13:02:24Z shka_: phoe: well, mandate requests minimum of 50 bits 2020-07-06T13:02:35Z shka_: *standard mandates 2020-07-06T13:02:44Z shka_: that's why i am asking 2020-07-06T13:03:16Z phoe: "The IEEE 754 standard specifies a binary64 as having 1+11+52 bits" 2020-07-06T13:03:27Z phoe: I assume that this is the double float we are talking about 2020-07-06T13:04:23Z shka_: i wask asking about CL:DOUBLE-FLOAT which must have a least 50 bits of precision and 8 bits for exponent 2020-07-06T13:04:38Z phoe: oh! you meant the CL standard, not the IEEE one :D 2020-07-06T13:04:51Z shka_: yes 2020-07-06T13:05:18Z phoe: I assume that SBCL implements floats as IEEE 754 doubles though, which means they take a full 64-bit word 2020-07-06T13:05:19Z shka_: but i think that sbcl uses all 64 bits regardless 2020-07-06T13:05:51Z shka_: ok, i suspected that this is the case 2020-07-06T13:06:19Z shka_: because of notes sbcl produces 2020-07-06T13:06:55Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-06T13:09:37Z jackdaniel: and that's why single-floats may be much faster on CL, because they may be implemented as immediate objects with a type tag 2020-07-06T13:11:19Z JohnMS_WORK quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2020-07-06T13:11:31Z freshpassport quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-07-06T13:14:10Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-06T13:14:34Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-06T13:17:56Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-07-06T13:19:44Z phoe: 32 bits of data leaves plenty of space for tagging information on 64-bit implementations, whereas with fullword data like doubles the compiler and programmer need to exercise and cooperate a lot to prevent boxing 2020-07-06T13:20:02Z phoe: ...or with single floats on 32-bit implementations 2020-07-06T13:20:04Z fanta1 joined #lisp 2020-07-06T13:23:31Z akrl`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T13:23:48Z efm joined #lisp 2020-07-06T13:24:36Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-06T13:25:49Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-06T13:26:07Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-06T13:26:36Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-06T13:28:52Z bitmapper quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T13:29:05Z Trpger joined #lisp 2020-07-06T13:29:09Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-07-06T13:29:21Z Trpger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T13:37:59Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-07-06T13:38:50Z p_l: I wonder if it would be possible (or sensible at all) to somehow pack pointers into NaNs on a CL implementation 2020-07-06T13:41:28Z phoe: p_l: hmmm, you'd get 53 bits of address space that way 2020-07-06T13:41:31Z phoe: 54 if you count the sign bit 2020-07-06T13:41:46Z phoe: uh, I mean 52/53 2020-07-06T13:42:13Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T13:42:35Z p_l: phoe: more interested in how effective one can use them as pointers, unboxed 2020-07-06T13:43:24Z fanta1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-06T13:48:36Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2020-07-06T13:48:56Z fanta1 joined #lisp 2020-07-06T13:56:21Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T13:58:03Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:00:44Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T14:01:13Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:01:42Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T14:02:04Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-06T14:02:19Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:03:22Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:09:27Z ggole: NaN-boxing is probably better for languages with double-only numbers 2020-07-06T14:14:46Z fluxwave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T14:15:02Z stux|RC quit (Quit: Aloha!) 2020-07-06T14:15:29Z fluxwave joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:15:32Z fluxwave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T14:16:21Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:18:38Z OpenZen joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:20:34Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T14:25:31Z fluxwave joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:25:54Z fluxwave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T14:28:42Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T14:30:37Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:31:17Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T14:32:10Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:35:29Z fluxwave joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:35:45Z fluxwave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T14:38:19Z korner joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:38:53Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:40:31Z fluxwave joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:41:53Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:43:18Z fluxwave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T14:47:58Z jmercouris: is there something like collect-if in a loop macro? 2020-07-06T14:48:12Z beach: when ... collect ... 2020-07-06T14:48:13Z phoe: jmercouris: (loop ... when x collect y ...) 2020-07-06T14:48:21Z jmercouris: ah, yes 2020-07-06T14:48:22Z jmercouris: thank you 2020-07-06T14:50:32Z fluxwave joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:52:50Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:54:39Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:55:15Z akrl`` joined #lisp 2020-07-06T14:58:02Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-06T14:59:15Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-06T15:03:38Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T15:07:03Z tich quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T15:09:22Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T15:14:30Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-07-06T15:16:13Z korner: so i had been bit confused, i was told to test lisp code i should use sbcl but i cannot quite find how to actually use it 2020-07-06T15:16:32Z phoe: korner: `sudo apt install sbcl && sbcl`? 2020-07-06T15:16:50Z phoe: that's the installation and running part that should get you all the way to the SBCL prompt 2020-07-06T15:17:06Z gjulio_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T15:17:11Z korner: i have sbcl but i couldnt quite figure out how to "run" .lisp file 2020-07-06T15:17:39Z phoe: sbcl --load foo.lisp 2020-07-06T15:17:59Z phoe: and/or sbcl --script foo.lisp 2020-07-06T15:18:23Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-06T15:18:31Z korner: thanks that works 2020-07-06T15:18:36Z phoe: the former will AFAIK load it and stay alive, the latter will load the file and exit 2020-07-06T15:18:42Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T15:18:45Z beach: korner: You don't typically use Common Lisp the way you use (say) C. It is more common to start a REPL (Read-Eval-Print-Loop) and work from inside the system. 2020-07-06T15:19:08Z korner: i never touched C before 2020-07-06T15:19:17Z beach: Well, any batch language. 2020-07-06T15:19:35Z beach: korner: If you plan to develop in Common Lisp the way you do in a typical batch language, you probably won't see the point. 2020-07-06T15:19:45Z phoe: maybe another question 2020-07-06T15:19:48Z phoe: korner: what's your use case? 2020-07-06T15:19:51Z korner: not sure what batch language is but i was just curious bout lisp thats all 2020-07-06T15:20:06Z korner: not work, not student, just simply curiosity cause the syntax seems pretty nice 2020-07-06T15:20:26Z phoe: oh 2020-07-06T15:20:30Z beach: korner: By a batch language, I mean one that takes a source file, turn it into an executable, which you then start from your shell prompt. 2020-07-06T15:20:43Z korner: ah i see 2020-07-06T15:21:02Z korner: yeah i tried rust and haskell, that was some black magick 2020-07-06T15:21:12Z phoe: Lisp is another kind of black magic 2020-07-06T15:21:30Z phoe: you program in Rust and Haskell by writing code that the compiler then turns into executables 2020-07-06T15:21:38Z korner: yes 2020-07-06T15:21:51Z phoe: but you program in Lisp by starting a Lisp image and then modifying it until it contains the program that you want 2020-07-06T15:21:57Z korner: i noticed though that lisp syntax is lil bit simmiliar to the way i format lua so thats fun 2020-07-06T15:22:05Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-06T15:22:09Z phoe: it's a different creative process 2020-07-06T15:22:19Z korner: but i think i get the idea 2020-07-06T15:22:22Z phoe: mostly because Lisp stays alive throughout the whole programming experience 2020-07-06T15:23:39Z beach: korner: I think there are some YouTube videos that will give you the idea about how we work. 2020-07-06T15:23:42Z korner: was quite confused what i am even supposed to learn cause there is some common lisp, racket and million other lisps, thought common lisp would be nice starting point 2020-07-06T15:23:56Z korner: was told that common-lisp is useless but that sounds unlikely 2020-07-06T15:24:01Z phoe: korner: #lisp is a Common Lisp place, so obviously we'll suggest Common Lisp to you 2020-07-06T15:24:19Z phoe: it's a general-purpose programming language that I personally use for all personal projects I make 2020-07-06T15:24:27Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2020-07-06T15:24:36Z phoe: I really enjoy its interactivity and really short feedback loops. 2020-07-06T15:26:14Z gjulio_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-06T15:26:39Z akrl`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T15:26:52Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T15:26:52Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T15:27:12Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-06T15:27:21Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T15:29:08Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T15:29:49Z korner quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-07-06T15:35:22Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T15:37:17Z contrapunctus: I was wondering today...could I use CL to make a MIDI sequencer? 🤔 It seems to be the exclusive domain of C/C++ 2020-07-06T15:37:33Z beach: Of course you can. 2020-07-06T15:38:03Z contrapunctus: And GC won't pose an issue? o.o 2020-07-06T15:38:21Z beach: That would depend on the Common Lisp implementation. 2020-07-06T15:38:46Z beach: It would also depend on how low-level you want things to be in your application. 2020-07-06T15:39:11Z beach: Like, do you want to generate the sound yourself from oscillators and/or sample files? 2020-07-06T15:39:21Z contrapunctus: The latter, at least 2020-07-06T15:40:20Z beach: Also, it will depend on how "real-time" you need for it to be. If you fill the sound buffers enough, a GC won't ruin it. 2020-07-06T15:40:37Z beach: But it is probably best to avoid too much allocation during the "rendering" phase. 2020-07-06T15:41:49Z beach: The thing is, most current FLOSS Common Lisp implementations have a GC that is not very good for real-time. 2020-07-06T15:42:49Z contrapunctus: oh ._. 2020-07-06T15:43:23Z beach: I think you can avoid allocation entirely during rendering. 2020-07-06T15:43:37Z beach: After all, it is just arithmetic. 2020-07-06T15:45:16Z beach: Or, you can run some test code to see how long a GC typically takes. 2020-07-06T15:50:32Z phoe: another possibility is linking against FFI sound generators that don't suffer from GC issues - e.g. cl-collider for SuperCollider 2020-07-06T15:50:53Z phoe: that's mostly because we don't have soft-real-time GCs in free Common Lisp implementations 2020-07-06T15:51:01Z phoe: otherwise one could just write one in CL 2020-07-06T15:51:23Z beach: But we are working on such an implementation. 2020-07-06T15:51:27Z phoe: ^ 2020-07-06T15:51:41Z phoe: I do want to see a soft-real-time GC in action in Common Lisp 2020-07-06T15:52:09Z beach: So I say, write the thing in Common Lisp entirely. See how it works out. Maybe tweak the parameters for current Common Lisp implementations. 2020-07-06T15:52:23Z beach: Then, once we have a good GC, use it. 2020-07-06T15:52:29Z phoe: hah, optimizing for the optimistic future 2020-07-06T15:52:32Z phoe: I can't blame you :D 2020-07-06T15:52:58Z beach: My experience is that it takes some time to write significant applications, and then the context has evolved. 2020-07-06T15:53:14Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-06T15:57:52Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T15:58:29Z matzy_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T16:00:17Z choegusung joined #lisp 2020-07-06T16:01:06Z shangul: Finally, I translated "How to make Lisp go faster than C" to my native language. 2020-07-06T16:01:14Z rgherdt: beach: which implementation do you mean? (that's working on real-time GC) 2020-07-06T16:01:37Z beach: minion: Please tell rgherdt about SICL. 2020-07-06T16:01:37Z minion: rgherdt: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 2020-07-06T16:02:22Z beach: Oh, and we are well on the say, so I don't think it is futile. :) 2020-07-06T16:03:08Z phoe: it already had multiple nice effects on the ecosystem even though it's incomplete, so definitely not futile 2020-07-06T16:03:21Z beach: Fair enough. 2020-07-06T16:03:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T16:03:50Z phoe: Eclector and Cleavir are the two most notable ones that I can think of 2020-07-06T16:04:07Z phoe: might be even more that I haven't yet become aware of 2020-07-06T16:04:11Z beach: Trucler too, but less spectacular. 2020-07-06T16:04:29Z beach: Compile-time lexical environments. 2020-07-06T16:04:43Z phoe reads up on trucler 2020-07-06T16:05:12Z beach: It is basically a CLOS-y version of the environment stuff from CLtL2. 2020-07-06T16:05:16Z rgherdt: beach: thanks, will read about it 2020-07-06T16:05:17Z beach: Also much more complete. 2020-07-06T16:05:43Z beach: rgherdt: There is a specification. Hold on, I'll give you a link to a PDF. 2020-07-06T16:06:06Z beach: rgherdt: http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-specification.pdf I think. 2020-07-06T16:06:32Z beach: Yeah, that's it. 2020-07-06T16:08:19Z rgherdt: thx 2020-07-06T16:08:25Z beach: ywlcm 2020-07-06T16:18:13Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T16:18:54Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-07-06T16:20:34Z bacterio quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-06T16:22:12Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-06T16:22:27Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-07-06T16:22:30Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T16:22:58Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T16:23:32Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-07-06T16:26:15Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-06T16:30:30Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-06T16:32:58Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-06T16:33:55Z matzy_: should i be overly concerned if i created a db table in mito using it's classes and i see the table in my sql editor, but the (mito:ensure-table-exists 'mytable) returns NIL? 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e.g. implemented in terms of other operators 2020-07-06T17:45:41Z bacterio joined #lisp 2020-07-06T17:46:44Z alandipert: uhoh, that link is down. archived: https://web.archive.org/web/20191023160058/http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html 2020-07-06T17:47:17Z Bike: not that i know of. let me see if i can write one real quick 2020-07-06T17:47:17Z alandipert: oh jeez, disregard, it's there at the bottom :-) 2020-07-06T17:47:25Z Bike: oh, is it? 2020-07-06T17:47:37Z Bike: ah, yeah. 2020-07-06T17:48:03Z alandipert: yeah i gave it a go myself and looks like i arrived at something not far off from his 2020-07-06T17:48:07Z alandipert: phew 2020-07-06T17:48:35Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T17:49:01Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-06T17:49:23Z aindilis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T17:49:37Z Bike: this is kind of confusing to follow. 2020-07-06T17:50:26Z Jesin joined #lisp 2020-07-06T17:50:48Z Bike: but yeah having a thread local global vector is basically it 2020-07-06T17:52:03Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T17:53:07Z matzy_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T17:56:06Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T17:56:32Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-06T17:59:27Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:02:33Z akrl`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T18:05:21Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:06:13Z akrl`` joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:06:33Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T18:07:00Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:08:57Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-06T18:08:58Z aindilis joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:13:29Z aindilis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T18:14:01Z stepnem_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T18:14:28Z stepnem joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:15:01Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T18:15:28Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:16:52Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T18:18:18Z matzy_: what's the point of setting an accessor that's different that the slot name? 2020-07-06T18:18:35Z phoe: matzy_: you don't export slot names this way 2020-07-06T18:18:49Z phoe: (defclass foo ((%bar :accessor bar))) <- I only export FOO and BAR 2020-07-06T18:19:07Z phoe: this prevents people from using SLOT-VALUE and forces them to uses the accessor functions, which may implement additional logic. 2020-07-06T18:19:36Z phoe: where "prevents" means "unless they want to type the unholy trio of characters, «::%»" 2020-07-06T18:19:59Z matzy_: so you can make your :accessor a function? 2020-07-06T18:20:08Z phoe: what do you mean, make it a function? 2020-07-06T18:20:19Z phoe: :accessor defines a pair of functions, #'BAR and #'(SETF BAR) 2020-07-06T18:20:42Z Sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T18:20:43Z matzy_: right, but you mentioned additional logic implemented by the accessor 2020-07-06T18:21:29Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:21:30Z matzy_: oh, you mean when you set the accessor you can implement additional logic 2020-07-06T18:21:45Z phoe: (defmethod bar :around (object) ...) 2020-07-06T18:21:48Z phoe: (defmethod bar :after (object) ...) 2020-07-06T18:21:51Z phoe: (defmethod bar :before (object) ...) 2020-07-06T18:21:59Z efm joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:22:11Z phoe: then also the variants of the above that specialize on OBJECT in various ways 2020-07-06T18:23:06Z akrl`` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T18:23:08Z matzy_: ok, that helps. thanks a lot 2020-07-06T18:23:23Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:23:24Z matzy_: so best practice is to always give your accessors a different name 2020-07-06T18:23:45Z matzy_: or a similar but slightly different name 2020-07-06T18:24:01Z phoe: the common thing is to name slots %foo and accessors foo 2020-07-06T18:24:15Z phoe: where "%" means "internal" 2020-07-06T18:27:43Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T18:29:25Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T18:30:22Z _death: I don't think it's particularly common.. 2020-07-06T18:30:49Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-06T18:30:54Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:34:17Z mankaev quit 2020-07-06T18:34:41Z phoe: s/the common thing/the naming scheme I personally use/ 2020-07-06T18:35:02Z aindilis joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:35:50Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T18:35:58Z efm joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:36:05Z Bike: beach does it too, so that makes it basically a standard, 2020-07-06T18:36:25Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:36:29Z phoe: you mean a new standard, newer than ANSI CL? 2020-07-06T18:36:36Z phoe: oh boy here comes that discussion again~ 2020-07-06T18:37:27Z _death: personally I dislike adorning symbols with strange characters beyond the earmuff convention 2020-07-06T18:39:49Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T18:40:08Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:40:22Z efm_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:40:44Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-06T18:41:05Z phoe: how do you solve the export-the-accessor-not-the-slot-name problem then? 2020-07-06T18:41:06Z _death: btw thanks phoe and beach for today's online meeting.. I got into it a bit late and didn't bother logging in 2020-07-06T18:41:14Z phoe: _death: the video is online 2020-07-06T18:41:20Z phoe: both on Twitch (still) and on YouTube 2020-07-06T18:41:26Z _death: phoe: in my experience it's a nonissue 2020-07-06T18:41:33Z phoe: _death: that's a valid answer too 2020-07-06T18:41:41Z phoe: but anyway if you'd like to talk about anything for the next meeting, feel free to let me know 2020-07-06T18:42:17Z akrl`` joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:42:40Z phoe: and by "you" I mean "hey #lisp come on the slot's free let's keep the meetings rolling and such" 2020-07-06T18:42:52Z _death: also, I sometimes (often?) use the convention of giving a protocol-specific prefix to the access functions 2020-07-06T18:46:02Z aamukastemato joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:48:25Z terpri__ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:50:14Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-06T18:50:17Z mankaev quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-06T18:51:01Z efm_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-07-06T18:51:32Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-06T18:54:27Z pve: Sometimes, I dream of a library that aggregates all the common defclass usage patterns into a set of convenience macros that I could choose from, depending on my mood. 2020-07-06T18:55:58Z pve: Or one that provides a define-class-construction-kit, to which you can say "Hey, gimme a define-class macro with so-and-so slot and accessor naming scheme that maybe exports the class and its accessors by default, so my fingers don't bleed everytime I want to define a class". 2020-07-06T18:57:13Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T19:00:06Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2020-07-06T19:00:07Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T19:01:55Z aamukastemato quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T19:02:35Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T19:04:40Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-07-06T19:07:14Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-06T19:08:18Z akrl`` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-06T19:09:30Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T19:10:45Z JohnTalent quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-06T19:12:10Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-06T19:20:29Z akrl`` joined #lisp 2020-07-06T19:24:40Z brown121407 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T19:28:31Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T19:28:59Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-07-06T19:38:28Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T19:39:29Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-07-06T19:50:02Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-07-06T19:54:25Z simendsjo joined #lisp 2020-07-06T19:55:24Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-07-06T19:59:40Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-06T20:00:03Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-06T20:00:56Z dominic34 quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-06T20:10:51Z ym: Is a task of implementing arrays with signed (possible negative, in similar way C pointers allows it) index out of standard? Maybe someone knows an example? 2020-07-06T20:11:09Z phoe: not in portable CL 2020-07-06T20:11:22Z phoe: array indices are from 0 upwards 2020-07-06T20:11:23Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-06T20:11:23Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-06T20:11:23Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-06T20:11:33Z phoe: why though? 2020-07-06T20:11:42Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T20:12:48Z matzy_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T20:13:23Z ym: Why? I have a sine LUT and it would be nice to have positive values for 0 to pi and negative for 0 to -pi. 2020-07-06T20:14:10Z Bike: you can just have a function that accesses the lut and takes a possibly negative index as argument, and then it gets the actual index with a subtraction. 2020-07-06T20:14:26Z ym: Yes, but it costs. 2020-07-06T20:14:37Z phoe: use (mod n 2pi) 2020-07-06T20:14:41Z ym: I do. 2020-07-06T20:15:00Z Bike: barely anything. also, you could just have a table from 0 to pi and negate it, couldn't you? 2020-07-06T20:15:02Z phoe: don't know if it can be done any better in portable CL then 2020-07-06T20:15:31Z _death: a lookup table is suspicious in the first place 2020-07-06T20:16:28Z Bike: a C array is just a bunch of objects that are contiguous in storage. a lisp array is an actual structure. so lisp arrays don't work like C arrays. 2020-07-06T20:17:32Z ym: Bike, I can, but I also has a compound type that will fit very well with described LUT access method. But thanks anyway. 2020-07-06T20:17:59Z ym: _death, why? 2020-07-06T20:19:05Z _death: because nowadays on much hardware sine computation would be much faster than a memory access 2020-07-06T20:19:53Z ym: How do you write lisp code with modern hardware? 2020-07-06T20:20:23Z _death: for start, you have a SIN function 2020-07-06T20:20:55Z ym: I have or LISP does? 2020-07-06T20:21:14Z _death: clhs sin 2020-07-06T20:21:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sin_c.htm 2020-07-06T20:22:00Z ym: So how do I make it run on modern hardware to achieve sine values faster than from LUT? 2020-07-06T20:22:22Z _death: by calling it 2020-07-06T20:22:45Z _death: I guess there's some miscommunication going on? 2020-07-06T20:23:11Z ym: Seems like it. 2020-07-06T20:24:08Z ym: Maybe I have not modern enough hardware, but for me sin always slower than aref from array. 2020-07-06T20:24:12Z cranes joined #lisp 2020-07-06T20:28:16Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-07-06T20:29:37Z _death: maybe something weird is going on, because modern hardware has fast instructions for computing it 2020-07-06T20:30:41Z _death: (in fact, not so modern hardware had them.. like 80287? 2020-07-06T20:31:53Z ym: CPU instructions for trigonometric function? Give me a hint how to google it. 2020-07-06T20:32:09Z phoe: https://mudongliang.github.io/x86/html/file_module_x86_id_114.html 2020-07-06T20:33:08Z _death: I think nowadays some SSE analogue is used 2020-07-06T20:33:49Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T20:34:10Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-06T20:34:55Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-06T20:35:26Z nullman joined #lisp 2020-07-06T20:35:56Z _death: looking at sbcl code it does seem weird that it has #-x86 (def-math-rtn "sin" 1) which supposedly calls the C function 2020-07-06T20:38:03Z ym: Intel Haswell fsin: 47-106c latency. 71-100 uops. 2020-07-06T20:38:25Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-06T20:38:40Z duuqnd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T20:39:09Z duuqnd joined #lisp 2020-07-06T20:39:34Z ayuce quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T20:41:42Z nicktick quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-06T20:42:33Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-06T20:42:49Z ym: fsin always takes hundreds cycles. Maybe if you implement your own sine on modern Intel's CPU+FPGA chips, that would be same as accessing precalculated value. 2020-07-06T20:47:09Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T20:48:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-06T20:56:07Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-06T20:56:15Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-06T20:57:45Z elderK joined #lisp 2020-07-06T20:58:34Z elderK: Hey all, I was wondering if anyone had any experience with ASDF package-inferred-systems. If so, how did you feel about them? Did you find they made it easier to manage larger projects? Any alternatives? 2020-07-06T21:00:28Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-06T21:00:49Z nicktick quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-06T21:01:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-06T21:04:13Z brown121407 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T21:05:03Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-06T21:05:18Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-06T21:07:37Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-07-06T21:11:24Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T21:13:01Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-06T21:15:03Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2020-07-06T21:29:46Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T21:31:14Z cranes quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-07-06T21:35:09Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-06T21:36:42Z pve: elderK: it's a matter of taste, if you're comfortable with juggling exports then it's fine 2020-07-06T21:37:12Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-06T21:37:23Z pve: in my current project I do one package per directory/module 2020-07-06T21:39:23Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-06T21:40:09Z Lycurgus: if it only came in 3.1.2 ... . 2020-07-06T21:41:11Z phoe: How can I define a LIST-OF type using SATISFIES that will only match lists whose all elements are of type TYPE? I want to use it like (typep x '(list-of number)) 2020-07-06T21:42:04Z phoe: I assume that this should expand into (satisfies somepred) - but, given a single argument to the type expander, what should SOMEPRED be? 2020-07-06T21:42:20Z phoe: do I need to DEFUN inside the type expander to take care of that? 2020-07-06T21:45:24Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T21:46:46Z sz0 joined #lisp 2020-07-06T21:46:59Z ym: deftype has example in hyperspec. somepred would be a list you're checking. 2020-07-06T21:47:07Z userone joined #lisp 2020-07-06T21:47:26Z phoe: a list? what do you mean? 2020-07-06T21:47:53Z phoe: SOMEPRED must be a one-argument predicate if it's a part of SATISFIES 2020-07-06T21:48:06Z pve: I remember trying to do that a long time ago too, my conclusion (could be wrong) was that you needed to have some magic to ensure predicates exist for each concrete type you want to check 2020-07-06T21:48:10Z phoe: also, the example isn't really what I am looking for 2020-07-06T21:48:23Z elderK: pve: How do you handle the case where two modules require something from each other? Say, interfaces. 2020-07-06T21:48:29Z elderK: Just define an interfaces package? 2020-07-06T21:49:18Z elderK: I've been playing with Lisp for awhile now but I'm still new to using it in a practical sense :) 2020-07-06T21:49:20Z phoe: elderK: the easiest is to define a protocol/interface package and have the modules use it 2020-07-06T21:50:15Z ym: phoe, you first defun somepred so that it accept one argument, then you deftype with (satisfies somepred). Why don't you like the example? 2020-07-06T21:50:33Z pve: elderK: hmm I try to make sure the dependencies are one-way always 2020-07-06T21:50:51Z pve: if that's what you mean 2020-07-06T21:51:00Z elderK: phoe: Another question is, like, constructors. How do you handle the case of initializing stuff in a new object instance? Say, some members are initialized in a complex way, based on some parameters you set when you create the instance. Do you just have a function that encapsulates that all? Do you use shared-initialize? I'm not sure what the best way is to handle that. 2020-07-06T21:51:01Z Lycurgus forgot the geneology back to mk-defsystem. Also thereis a grovel extension. 2020-07-06T21:51:01Z phoe: ym: I cannot define a single type named LIST-OF that accepts a type as an argument. I must define LIST-OF-NUMBER, LIST-OF-INTEGER, LIST-OF-SYMBOL, ... 2020-07-06T21:51:15Z elderK: That is, creating an instance is more complex than just (make-instance 'thing ...) 2020-07-06T21:51:28Z phoe: elderK: wait a second, what do you mean, more complex 2020-07-06T21:51:49Z phoe: MAKE-INSTANCE is supposed to be the external interface, because you can arbitrarily complicate the process of instantiating 2020-07-06T21:52:07Z phoe: by defining methods on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE, REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE, SHARED-INITIALIZE, and/or the two update functions 2020-07-06T21:52:28Z phoe: in a purely CLOSsy perspective, you should never need any kind of wrapper over MAKE-INSTANCE 2020-07-06T21:52:56Z elderK: phoe: Okay, so methods on those generics are roughly equivalent to constructors in other languages? 2020-07-06T21:53:03Z phoe: elderK: yes, that's the idea. 2020-07-06T21:53:10Z elderK: phoe: Thank you :) 2020-07-06T21:53:28Z phoe: INITIALIZE-INSTANCE: for new instances. REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE: for old instances that you need to "reinitialize", whatever it means for you. 2020-07-06T21:53:36Z phoe: Update methods: when the class was modified or you change the instance's class. 2020-07-06T21:53:46Z elderK: How often should we be concerned with reinitialize-instance and such? I rarely see them defined. 2020-07-06T21:53:48Z phoe: SHARED-INITIALIZE: for code that is supposed to execute in all of the above cases. 2020-07-06T21:54:01Z phoe: elderK: do you call REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE on your instances? 2020-07-06T21:54:54Z ym: phoe, maybe store list type in the end of the list? 2020-07-06T21:54:58Z phoe: if you don't have a use case for it and don't call it, then you can use the default behavior 2020-07-06T21:55:30Z phoe: ym: sounds dirty. 2020-07-06T21:55:45Z phoe: then the list contains objects that aren't of the type I want 2020-07-06T21:56:29Z phoe: we could cons them onto the beginning of that list I guess, but then suddenly we get (typep (cons type list) '(satisfies list-of-x)) 2020-07-06T21:56:40Z phoe: I'll go the SETF FDEFINITION way 2020-07-06T21:57:35Z ym: Don't list always has nil in the end? 2020-07-06T21:57:54Z phoe: consing onto the beginning is cheaper than consing at the end and doesn't require the list to be mutated 2020-07-06T21:58:20Z phoe: if I have a list (1 2 3), I don't want to traverse it and set its last CDR to some type so I get (1 2 3 . MY-AWESOME-TYPE) 2020-07-06T21:58:38Z phoe: since not only that destroys my list, it's also really really pointless 2020-07-06T22:00:22Z ym: Maybe check the type of first element of a list in somepred and compare it's type to other elements type. 2020-07-06T22:01:19Z elderK: phoe: If I have a class B and I want to create an instance of it in file A (but not use any of its methods), is it wise to have A depend on the file that defines B? 2020-07-06T22:01:20Z ym: It will only tell if list is filled with similar type elements though. 2020-07-06T22:01:34Z elderK: Or is it not necessary in CL? Since, make-instance just accepts a symbol for the class name? 2020-07-06T22:01:54Z phoe: elderK: it accepts a symbol just fine 2020-07-06T22:02:01Z elderK: I've been going on the hypothesis that the symbol naming the class is namespaced, and so I could import it. 2020-07-06T22:02:51Z elderK: Say, foo:my-class vs zug:my-class. 2020-07-06T22:03:32Z phoe: sure, as long as the symbol already exists 2020-07-06T22:03:37Z phoe: ...at read-time, I mean 2020-07-06T22:04:19Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T22:06:37Z elderK: phoe: If initialize-instance takes care of initializing some slots, how do you ensure that another user instantiating your class, doesn't specify initializers for those slots directly? 2020-07-06T22:06:57Z Xach: don't make the initarg easy to use 2020-07-06T22:07:00Z elderK: If class A has slots s0 and s1, and s1 is initialized in initialize-instance, how do I prevent the user (make-instance 'A :s1 whatever) 2020-07-06T22:07:15Z Xach: use a "private" symbol as the initarg for s1, for example 2020-07-06T22:07:24Z Xach: or don't have an initarg for it at all 2020-07-06T22:07:27Z cranes joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:07:37Z cranes quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-06T22:07:41Z Xach: or document that they Mustn't 2020-07-06T22:07:49Z elderK: Thank you, Xach. 2020-07-06T22:08:08Z elderK: I've been using keyword symbols for initargs. I didn't think to use an ordinary symbol :) 2020-07-06T22:08:28Z cranes joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:08:37Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:08:37Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-06T22:08:38Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:08:42Z Xach: elderK: it is not very common in my experience 2020-07-06T22:08:51Z Xach: but, this is a situation that calls for them 2020-07-06T22:11:46Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1944#1944 2020-07-06T22:11:50Z phoe: aaaaaaah 2020-07-06T22:11:58Z phoe: ugly, but satisfying 2020-07-06T22:12:20Z cranes quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-06T22:12:22Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T22:12:48Z cranes joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:12:48Z cranes quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-06T22:12:53Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:12:56Z cranes joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:13:37Z nabataeus joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:14:17Z phoe: (typep '(1 2 3) '(phoe-toolbox:list-of cl:number)) ;=> T 2020-07-06T22:14:40Z Lycurgus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T22:16:39Z cranes quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-06T22:16:51Z cranes joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:17:14Z grewal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-06T22:17:23Z grewal joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:17:35Z nabataeus quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-07-06T22:17:40Z pve: phoe: neat, are you able to get compile-time warnings with that? (it's late, so I can't reason about that myself now) 2020-07-06T22:18:22Z phoe: what do you mean, compile-time warnings? 2020-07-06T22:18:28Z phoe: it's SATISFIES so I don't expect to get anything 2020-07-06T22:19:25Z pve: like if you declaim ftype myfunction to take a list-of cl:number 2020-07-06T22:19:43Z phoe: can SATISFIES go into DECLAIM FTYPE?... 2020-07-06T22:19:46Z phoe checks 2020-07-06T22:19:57Z pve: and then somewhere call it with list-of cl:string 2020-07-06T22:20:22Z phoe: don't think so 2020-07-06T22:20:31Z phoe: SATISFIES types are black boxes to Lisp compilers 2020-07-06T22:20:34Z pve: ok 2020-07-06T22:20:56Z pve: no parameterized type for us then :( 2020-07-06T22:21:22Z phoe: sorry, can't hack the CL type system like that. 2020-07-06T22:22:09Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T22:22:34Z pve: yeah, I didn't think so 2020-07-06T22:23:22Z grewal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T22:23:49Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T22:23:49Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:24:04Z Harag joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:25:12Z grewal joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:28:07Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-06T22:28:35Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T22:28:40Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T22:28:50Z Harag joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:33:58Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:35:37Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T22:36:47Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-07-06T22:44:11Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-06T22:47:43Z catern quit (Excess Flood) 2020-07-06T22:48:27Z gjulio_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:48:31Z catern joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:48:47Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T22:56:18Z ym: I made like this: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1945#1945 2020-07-06T22:57:16Z epony joined #lisp 2020-07-06T22:58:17Z ym: Also indention's broken. 2020-07-06T23:00:32Z phoe: ...woah! 2020-07-06T23:00:36Z phoe: that's actually genius!!! 2020-07-06T23:01:42Z phoe: I didn't think to combine CONS and SATISFIES like that 2020-07-06T23:01:56Z phoe: this is brilliant stuff 2020-07-06T23:13:23Z Bike: type-of might not be the best operator for this, it can return a lot of things. 2020-07-06T23:14:15Z duuqnd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T23:14:54Z phoe: Bike: it will never return NIL though 2020-07-06T23:15:16Z phoe: so if we bend the rules and use its output as a boolean, then this code will magically work 2020-07-06T23:15:35Z phoe: I'll go to sleep now and will use the insight from ym to make a better version tomorrow morning 2020-07-06T23:16:14Z Bike: i mean, for example, you could have a (list-of cons) and then type-of would return a (cons x y) type depending on what's in the cons 2020-07-06T23:16:30Z phoe: oh right 2020-07-06T23:16:35Z phoe: yes, I see now 2020-07-06T23:16:45Z phoe: there's multiple type-of in there 2020-07-06T23:16:48Z Bike: or one you could actually run into, if you have (list-of simple-vector), but on sbcl (type-of #(1 2 3)) => (simple-vector 3) 2020-07-06T23:17:05Z phoe: I assume we can just use EVERY TYPEP on the CDR of that list though 2020-07-06T23:17:30Z Bike: i guess, but that doesn't help if type-of returns something unfavorable for the first element. 2020-07-06T23:18:28Z phoe: oh 2020-07-06T23:18:34Z phoe: that's correct, yes 2020-07-06T23:18:40Z phoe: for 1 it might return BIT 2020-07-06T23:18:56Z phoe: and therefore the thing will fail for e.g. '(1 2 3 4 5) 2020-07-06T23:19:20Z phoe: sigh 2020-07-06T23:20:00Z phoe: well at least we tried 2020-07-06T23:20:17Z phoe goes to sleep 2020-07-06T23:20:27Z Bike: yeah, sorry to be no fun 2020-07-06T23:25:28Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T23:26:35Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-06T23:40:08Z efm joined #lisp 2020-07-06T23:40:34Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-06T23:44:32Z efm_ joined #lisp 2020-07-06T23:44:58Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T23:45:32Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T23:46:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-07T00:08:33Z efm_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-07-07T00:13:41Z userone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-07T00:14:11Z drmeister: Does anyone know how to figure out what directory asdf is using for its cache? 2020-07-07T00:18:10Z Bike: maybe you can call apply-output-translations with whatever source pathname? 2020-07-07T00:27:09Z drmeister: Yes - that worked. 2020-07-07T00:27:25Z drmeister: As in... 2020-07-07T00:27:27Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/tUnu5b6W/ 2020-07-07T00:28:02Z simendsjo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T00:46:36Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-07T00:46:36Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-07T00:46:36Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-07T00:55:48Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T00:58:32Z akoana left #lisp 2020-07-07T01:05:34Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-07T01:06:35Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T01:11:05Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-07T01:22:40Z efm joined #lisp 2020-07-07T01:28:11Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-07T01:35:12Z gjulio__ joined #lisp 2020-07-07T01:36:02Z gjulio_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T01:39:48Z v3ga joined #lisp 2020-07-07T01:42:39Z Khisanth quit (Read error: No route to host) 2020-07-07T01:48:39Z igemnace joined #lisp 2020-07-07T01:51:16Z marusich joined #lisp 2020-07-07T01:53:52Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-07T01:56:35Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-07T01:57:29Z freshpassport joined #lisp 2020-07-07T02:23:59Z efm quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-07-07T02:27:16Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-07-07T02:27:50Z syminal joined #lisp 2020-07-07T02:35:54Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-07T02:43:16Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-07T02:57:42Z nullman quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-07-07T02:59:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T03:01:44Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2020-07-07T03:01:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-07T03:09:06Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-07-07T03:09:50Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-07-07T03:15:52Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-07T03:16:09Z eponym joined #lisp 2020-07-07T03:22:28Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-07-07T03:25:08Z yangby joined #lisp 2020-07-07T03:25:35Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-07-07T03:27:19Z himmAllRight17 joined #lisp 2020-07-07T03:27:29Z himmAllRight quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-07T03:27:29Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-07T03:28:15Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T03:29:23Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2020-07-07T03:30:54Z yangby quit (Quit: Go out for a walk and buy a drink.) 2020-07-07T03:31:44Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T03:33:31Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-07-07T03:45:09Z nullman joined #lisp 2020-07-07T03:49:12Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T03:49:25Z eponym quit (Quit: reconfigure) 2020-07-07T03:50:17Z epony joined #lisp 2020-07-07T04:11:56Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-07-07T04:16:22Z zigpaw quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-07T04:16:59Z zigpaw joined #lisp 2020-07-07T04:21:41Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-07T04:34:36Z vidak` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T04:41:44Z syminal quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2020-07-07T04:47:39Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-07T04:51:22Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2020-07-07T04:54:17Z terpri__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-07T04:54:30Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T04:54:52Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2020-07-07T05:02:30Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-07T05:04:19Z vegai: morning 2020-07-07T05:04:20Z vegai: ! 2020-07-07T05:04:25Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-07T05:06:13Z froggey joined #lisp 2020-07-07T05:10:46Z OpenZen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-07T05:14:01Z beach: Hello vegai. 2020-07-07T05:15:14Z beach: vegai: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2020-07-07T05:17:42Z vegai: somewhat yes, I've lurked before as well 2020-07-07T05:18:04Z beach: I see. Welcome! What brings you to #lisp? 2020-07-07T05:19:46Z vegai: the search for the perfect programming language, of course :P 2020-07-07T05:20:04Z beach: Look no further! :) 2020-07-07T05:20:09Z vegai: or the neverending quest, perhaps 2020-07-07T05:21:56Z aeth: Well, you can always write your own. The closer your syntax is to CL's, the easier it is to write it in CL. 2020-07-07T05:22:16Z aeth: If it's almost entirely compatible, you can just use macros. 2020-07-07T05:25:57Z beach: vegai: So is the plan to learn enough Common Lisp to tell whether you can stop searching? 2020-07-07T05:26:11Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-07-07T05:29:23Z vegai: beach: yes, roughly so 2020-07-07T05:29:35Z beach: Sounds good. 2020-07-07T05:32:46Z aeth: vegai: what features are you looking for? 2020-07-07T05:33:10Z aeth: People have done everything from webdev to gamedev so there's quite the range of projects 2020-07-07T05:41:21Z Rapeseed joined #lisp 2020-07-07T05:42:20Z Rapeseed quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-07T05:43:26Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-07T05:45:12Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-07-07T05:47:30Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-07T05:52:55Z Rapeseed joined #lisp 2020-07-07T05:53:26Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-07T05:57:51Z JohnMS_WORK joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:00:44Z mrcom joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:00:58Z Rapeseed quit (K-Lined) 2020-07-07T06:01:26Z vegai: well, my checklist reads like it was made for cl 2020-07-07T06:01:42Z Rapeseed joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:01:42Z Rapeseed quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-07T06:02:07Z vegai: strong repl/dynamic programming; static types (optional or not); performance; stability; non-ambiguous syntax; standard with more than 1 implementation 2020-07-07T06:02:27Z beach: Perfect! 2020-07-07T06:02:58Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:03:35Z vegai: I don't actually know if cl has non-ambiguous syntax 2020-07-07T06:04:19Z beach: That depends on what you mean by that term. 2020-07-07T06:04:39Z vegai: it's a simple wish: I just want a deterministic formatter for my code 2020-07-07T06:04:52Z beach: But I think it is non-ambiguous. 2020-07-07T06:04:54Z vegai: I program a lot of python, where that's a bit of a problem 2020-07-07T06:05:07Z vegai: not a huge problem in practice actually, but still 2020-07-07T06:05:25Z beach: The surface syntax is trivial, but can become more complicated with reader macros. 2020-07-07T06:05:46Z beach: Then there is a second-level syntax on S-expressions in memory. 2020-07-07T06:06:03Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:06:09Z beach: The second-level syntax is defined by the special operators. 2020-07-07T06:16:47Z seok joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:16:49Z seok: Hi guys! 2020-07-07T06:16:56Z beach: Hello seok. 2020-07-07T06:16:59Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:17:02Z seok: Hi professor 2020-07-07T06:17:49Z seok: this isn't lisp related, but how would I scan my local ports to see which ports are being used by applications? 2020-07-07T06:19:53Z flip214_: seok: "netstat -antp | grep LISTEN", or nmap 2020-07-07T06:20:18Z flip214_: seok: but if you use 0 as port number, the kernel will allocate an available one for you 2020-07-07T06:20:24Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-07T06:20:30Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-07T06:20:41Z flip214_ is now known as flip214 2020-07-07T06:20:43Z beach: vegai: The Common Lisp language exposes the structure of the internal representation of code. In most languages, that structure would be internal to the compiler, and different for each compiler. As a consequence, the Common Lisp special operators (corresponding to fixed syntactic constructs in other languages, like loops, assignments, conditionals, etc.) is defined in terms of what goes where in the list that represent the 2020-07-07T06:20:44Z beach: S-expression. 2020-07-07T06:21:42Z seok: hm 2020-07-07T06:21:51Z seok: netstat -antp doesn't show anything for me 2020-07-07T06:21:59Z seok: I'm pretty sure I have some databases running 2020-07-07T06:25:56Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T06:26:18Z flip214: seok: what OS are you on? 2020-07-07T06:26:48Z flip214: windows doesn't like -p, it's "netstat -anto" there IIRC 2020-07-07T06:27:06Z flip214: don't know about the *BSDs or MacOS 2020-07-07T06:27:43Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:28:45Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:29:20Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:36:51Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:42:19Z rgherdt_ joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:42:58Z epony quit (Quit: reconfigure) 2020-07-07T06:43:59Z epony joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:45:20Z rgherdt__ joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:46:28Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-07T06:47:37Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:48:49Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-07T06:49:24Z rgherdt_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T06:50:14Z rgherdt__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-07T06:50:56Z bsd4me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-07T06:51:40Z praiseallah88 joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:51:44Z praiseallah88: sun is not doing Allah is doing to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger 2020-07-07T06:52:26Z praiseallah7 joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:55:42Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe 2020-07-07T06:55:50Z phoe has set mode +b *!*cb6d2850@*.com/ip.203.109.40.80 2020-07-07T06:55:50Z praiseallah88 [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (off-topic) 2020-07-07T06:56:13Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:56:13Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2020-07-07T06:56:13Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:56:47Z praiseallah7 [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (off-topic) 2020-07-07T06:56:59Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe 2020-07-07T06:58:54Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-07T06:58:56Z vaporatorius quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-07T06:59:10Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:59:10Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2020-07-07T06:59:10Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-07T06:59:43Z freshpassport quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2020-07-07T07:00:05Z Mawile quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-07T07:02:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-07-07T07:03:17Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-07T07:05:49Z msk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T07:09:57Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-07T07:10:49Z rgherdt_ joined #lisp 2020-07-07T07:13:42Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-07T07:13:52Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-07T07:14:58Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-07T07:26:51Z Harag: am I right in assuming that when *print-readably* = t that the object written is not necessarily readble by a different "implementation" 2020-07-07T07:28:21Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-07-07T07:33:16Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-07T07:33:48Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-07T07:33:54Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T07:38:23Z phoe: yes 2020-07-07T07:38:50Z phoe: it is supposed to be readable back by the same version of the same implementation 2020-07-07T07:43:01Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-07-07T07:49:45Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-07T07:55:04Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-07-07T07:57:34Z cyberbanjo joined #lisp 2020-07-07T07:58:27Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-07T07:58:27Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-07T07:58:27Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-07T07:59:04Z Harag: thanx phoe 2020-07-07T08:03:10Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-07T08:04:13Z Harag: is it acceptable to add something to *features* for your own packages? It looks like it because I can see stuff like ALEXANDRIA::SEQUENCE-EMPTYP in there. 2020-07-07T08:06:13Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-07T08:06:32Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-07T08:08:19Z phoe: Harag: yes 2020-07-07T08:08:34Z phoe: then you do stuff like #+foo::bar 2020-07-07T08:09:32Z phoe: normally *FEATURES* are full of keywords, but there's only this many keywords available; this, and you might want to not export that feature symbol for whatever reason 2020-07-07T08:10:42Z Harag: got it 2020-07-07T08:13:11Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-07T08:18:43Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-07-07T08:18:57Z loke joined #lisp 2020-07-07T08:20:33Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-07T08:21:11Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T08:24:58Z freshpassport joined #lisp 2020-07-07T08:25:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-07T08:25:42Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-07T08:27:36Z kleptoflora joined #lisp 2020-07-07T08:30:20Z anatrope quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-07T08:35:01Z coltkirk joined #lisp 2020-07-07T08:57:34Z gjulio__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-07T09:05:38Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T09:06:05Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-07T09:12:46Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-07T09:22:56Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood) 2020-07-07T09:23:23Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-07-07T09:23:57Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-07T09:25:05Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-07-07T09:25:25Z ArthurStrong quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-07T09:25:25Z ayuce quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-07T09:25:51Z clintm joined #lisp 2020-07-07T09:26:09Z jdz joined #lisp 2020-07-07T09:26:10Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-07T09:26:25Z ArthurStrong joined #lisp 2020-07-07T09:27:27Z clintm: If I have two structs both with a slot of the same name, and I call the slot accessor function from one on an instance of the other, that's supposed to be a type error, right? If so, does allegro really just return nil? 2020-07-07T09:28:31Z beach: Why would it be a type error? 2020-07-07T09:28:47Z clintm: I tested it in a bare alisp repl, but I'd like cofirmation before I plant a proverbial flag in the sand and say "this is bad and we shouldn't do it" at work. 2020-07-07T09:29:56Z flip214: clintm: for classes there's the generic function and methods framework. for structures the structure name is prepended for accessor names to avoid such conflicts. 2020-07-07T09:31:11Z MidHotaru joined #lisp 2020-07-07T09:32:57Z clintm: beach: because it's two different types, at least that's what I assumed. (defstruct a id) (defstruct b id) (a-id (make-b)) -> nil. Should that really be nil? On LW it's a type error. 2020-07-07T09:33:02Z beach: Oh, type error because you are giving it a struct of a different type. Got it. 2020-07-07T09:33:09Z clintm: I mean, I assumed it would be a type error. 2020-07-07T09:33:22Z beach: It might just be undefined behavior. 2020-07-07T09:33:39Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-07T09:33:54Z lieven: is safety at the highest setting? 2020-07-07T09:34:01Z beach: Structs are designed to be fast. It wouldn't surprise me if the accessor does nothing other than access an element with a particular index. 2020-07-07T09:34:10Z clintm: lieven: Oh, I didn't try that. 2020-07-07T09:36:48Z clintm: Same :( 2020-07-07T09:37:10Z beach: Structs are weird. I strongly suggest you use standard classes instead. 2020-07-07T09:37:10Z clintm: At least with debug and safety 3 2020-07-07T09:37:57Z flip214: clintm: on SBCL I get The value #S(B :ID NIL) is not of type COMMON-LISP-USER::A 2020-07-07T09:38:11Z lieven: an implementation is certainly allowed to carp but I don't think it's required 2020-07-07T09:38:22Z clintm: flip214: That's what I got with LW as well. 2020-07-07T09:39:08Z clintm: Hrm, maybe if I scour the allegro docs I can find a way to turn it on even if just during testing and development. Thanks for the info, everyone! 2020-07-07T09:47:35Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-07T09:52:22Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-07T09:52:52Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-07T10:00:30Z Harag: is there a "prefered" "portable" pretty printing library out there that deals with writing the likes of clos objects and hashtables as readable, even if it is just readable by itself 2020-07-07T10:01:39Z phoe: I have phoe-toolbox:print-hash-table-readably for hash tables 2020-07-07T10:01:56Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-07-07T10:02:26Z phoe: and also possibly phoe-toolbox:print-instance-readably that tries to be DWIMmy in what it does 2020-07-07T10:02:37Z phoe: and therefore can miserably fail if one doesn't know what they're doing 2020-07-07T10:03:07Z phoe: see https://github.com/phoe/phoe-toolbox/blob/master/phoe-toolbox.lisp#L434 2020-07-07T10:03:48Z Harag: phoe: I have some as well was just wondering if I was reinventing the wheel again... 2020-07-07T10:05:05Z flip214: Harag: alexandria has (hash-table-alist) and -plist and the reverse functions... but you loose the :test that way. 2020-07-07T10:05:45Z edgar-rft: (print-readaby "btbtfdctgzthqmjbycftrwknrngmcjvbtnbwlkvf" :-) 2020-07-07T10:08:59Z seok quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T10:10:07Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-07T10:11:36Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-07-07T10:15:45Z phoe: Harag: reinventing the wheel is common in places where the standard and Alexandria are lacking 2020-07-07T10:16:51Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-07-07T10:19:35Z markoong is now known as kongmar 2020-07-07T10:19:53Z kongmar is now known as margeas 2020-07-07T10:20:06Z margeas is now known as markoong 2020-07-07T10:20:43Z markoong quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-07T10:21:08Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-07-07T10:21:24Z markoong quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-07T10:22:27Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-07-07T10:29:37Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T10:30:24Z flip214: phoe: perhaps such wheels should be added to alexandria-2, then 2020-07-07T10:32:58Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-07T10:35:13Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-07-07T10:36:04Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-07T10:36:33Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-07-07T10:40:26Z phoe: flip214: tempting 2020-07-07T10:41:30Z vhost- joined #lisp 2020-07-07T10:48:24Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-07T10:48:35Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-07T10:49:10Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-07-07T10:50:15Z flip214: phoe: can only save space if there are less duplicated implementations of common things 2020-07-07T10:56:34Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-07T11:02:23Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-07T11:02:42Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-07T11:03:24Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-07T11:03:24Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-07T11:03:24Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-07T11:07:54Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T11:17:12Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T11:18:57Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-07T11:27:16Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-07-07T11:30:32Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-07-07T11:37:54Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-07T11:40:18Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-07T11:40:57Z MidHotaru quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-07T11:42:19Z libertyprime quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-07T11:42:37Z ArthurStrong quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-07T11:44:24Z coltkirk left #lisp 2020-07-07T11:46:19Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T11:49:04Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-07-07T12:07:08Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2020-07-07T12:07:08Z MightyJoe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T12:25:25Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-07T12:29:18Z rgherdt_ is now known as rgherdt 2020-07-07T12:35:32Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-07-07T12:52:15Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-07T12:57:26Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-07T13:07:11Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-07T13:12:37Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-07T13:22:25Z freshpassport quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-07-07T13:23:04Z dyelar joined #lisp 2020-07-07T13:26:06Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-07-07T13:31:10Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T13:31:20Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-07T13:36:19Z phoe: flip214: I don't know what should A² be composed of; I could think a little bit on it and propose some ideas 2020-07-07T13:37:26Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-07T13:39:34Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-07T13:40:59Z Xach: Would you please try to "curl https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp > /dev/null" and tell me if you get an error from curl? 2020-07-07T13:41:54Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T13:42:46Z Bike: is that an open question? i didn't see any errors. 2020-07-07T13:42:58Z Xach: So open 2020-07-07T13:43:52Z Xach: Bike: do you mind telling me what OS you are using? 2020-07-07T13:44:02Z Bike: arch linux. i can try it on a mac too if you want. 2020-07-07T13:44:12Z Xach: Bike: if you don't mind, please do 2020-07-07T13:44:44Z Bike: (60) SSL certificate problem: certificate has expired 2020-07-07T13:44:57Z Xach: Thanks. 2020-07-07T13:45:34Z Bike: welcome 2020-07-07T13:45:50Z Xach: Different client SSL configurations produce different results. It's frustrating. 2020-07-07T13:46:46Z phoe: Bike: which mac version? 2020-07-07T13:47:04Z Xach: phoe: I get it on 10.15.5 2020-07-07T13:47:41Z phoe: that's surprisingly recent 2020-07-07T13:47:42Z phoe: hmmm 2020-07-07T13:47:54Z Bike: uh, 10.13 i think. 2020-07-07T13:48:01Z ArthurStrong joined #lisp 2020-07-07T13:48:42Z Bike: and i think i got curl through homebrew? 2020-07-07T13:49:34Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-07T13:49:34Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-07T13:49:34Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-07T13:50:46Z Xach: Hmm, I think I see what I might be able to do. 2020-07-07T13:51:50Z ArthurStrong: Hi all! 2020-07-07T13:52:16Z phoe: heyy ArthurStrong 2020-07-07T13:52:35Z vegai: glad to see the vscode plugins + lsp working pretty well already 2020-07-07T13:52:51Z vegai: I've used emacs for a long time so going back to that would be possible 2020-07-07T13:52:57Z vegai: I'd rather not though, if there was any options :) 2020-07-07T13:53:48Z phoe: vegai: could you give me some sort of screenshots? is the REPL and incremental compilation working? 2020-07-07T13:58:31Z vegai: REPL and incremental compilation are working, yes 2020-07-07T13:58:57Z Xach: Bike: could you please try again? 2020-07-07T13:59:14Z Bike: works this time. on both systems. 2020-07-07T14:00:11Z phoe: vegai: :O 2020-07-07T14:00:20Z phoe: do you have some sort of screenshots and/or videos? 2020-07-07T14:00:58Z Xach: Bike: thank you very much 2020-07-07T14:01:12Z Bike: no problem 2020-07-07T14:01:25Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-07T14:01:27Z vegai: phoe: didn't this use to work? No, I don't readily have screenshots or videos 2020-07-07T14:01:35Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:01:39Z Xach: I need to compress my systems.txt and releases.txt. They are by far the biggest traffic generators for dists. 2020-07-07T14:01:45Z Xach: way more than actual archives. 2020-07-07T14:01:55Z vegai: this certainly isn't as advanced as SLIME is 2020-07-07T14:01:59Z phoe: vegai: I don't know - I never watched the CL-on-VSCode scene 2020-07-07T14:02:04Z phoe: perhaps I should 2020-07-07T14:02:08Z vegai: but is enough to get started 2020-07-07T14:02:12Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-07T14:02:50Z beach: I wonder whether that is scymtym's work. 2020-07-07T14:03:15Z beach: I know he worked on it but maybe someone else did as well. 2020-07-07T14:06:08Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:07:32Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:08:50Z theseb joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:09:10Z zigpaw quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-07T14:11:58Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T14:12:11Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:12:54Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-07T14:19:16Z flip214: Xach: the root certificate says valid until "18. Januar 2038, 23:59:59 GMT", perhaps that's a 31bit problem? 2020-07-07T14:20:18Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T14:21:20Z jasom quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2020-07-07T14:25:10Z phoe: flip214: we'll worry about that in December 2037 2020-07-07T14:26:48Z flip214: phoe: no, because the certificate isn't accepted _now_ 2020-07-07T14:27:26Z jackdaniel quit (Quit: brb) 2020-07-07T14:28:01Z phoe: wait a second... 2020-07-07T14:28:10Z phoe: that's the end date 2020-07-07T14:28:13Z phoe: what's the start date? 2020-07-07T14:28:44Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-07T14:28:52Z Archenoth joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:28:54Z flip214: Xach: brotli is modern 2020-07-07T14:29:20Z flip214: phoe: May 2019 2020-07-07T14:29:34Z ayuce quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T14:29:56Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-07T14:29:58Z phoe: the dates seem okay then 2020-07-07T14:30:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-07T14:30:51Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:30:54Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:31:17Z flip214: yeah, but the arithmetic on them might be broken 2020-07-07T14:33:28Z clintm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-07T14:34:44Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:35:54Z zigpaw joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:37:48Z phoe: huh, 18th Jan should still fit within Y2K38 2020-07-07T14:37:58Z leo_song quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-07T14:38:30Z Xach: flip214: oh, i would just stick with gzip, since i already have the code for it in the client. 2020-07-07T14:41:19Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:42:50Z flip214: Xach: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/6b51c5a0/, both with best settings (gzip -k9, brotli -kZ) 2020-07-07T14:42:52Z zigpaw quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-07T14:42:57Z flip214: don't know how expensive bandwidth is for you 2020-07-07T14:43:30Z Misha_B joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:43:41Z flip214: about 20% smaller, but of course I understand the convenience of having the unpacker already available 2020-07-07T14:43:43Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-07T14:43:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-07T14:43:55Z Xach: flip214: that looks promising, do you have brotli decompression code in CL? 2020-07-07T14:44:04Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:44:50Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:45:33Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:45:38Z leo_song joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:46:46Z zigpaw joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:47:56Z t58 joined #lisp 2020-07-07T14:48:48Z t58 left #lisp 2020-07-07T14:50:13Z flip214: Xach: use zopfli then. https://paste.debian.net/hidden/72cd504f/, decompression compatible with gzip - in fact, it creates .gz files by default. 2020-07-07T14:50:37Z flip214: still about 10% smaller than gzip. 2020-07-07T14:55:23Z flip214: JFI: I used "zopfli -c -v --i1000 < systems.txt > systems.txt.zopfli" 2020-07-07T14:57:02Z madage joined #lisp 2020-07-07T15:01:46Z Archenoth quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-07T15:03:06Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-07T15:11:59Z ayuce quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T15:12:05Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-07-07T15:19:37Z Archenoth joined #lisp 2020-07-07T15:20:01Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-07-07T15:26:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-07T15:40:13Z ym: Do (ql:update-dist "some-package") works for everybody? 2020-07-07T15:40:56Z ym: s/Do/Does/ 2020-07-07T15:42:14Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-07T15:44:49Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-07T15:52:11Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-07T15:53:38Z phoe: ym: what is "some-package"? 2020-07-07T15:53:49Z phoe: you need to put a dist designator there, not a package name 2020-07-07T15:56:30Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-07T15:57:11Z jackdaniel: 2020-07-07T16:00:42Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-07-07T16:01:12Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-07T16:03:40Z ym: Oh 2020-07-07T16:04:00Z ym: Then how do I update the package? 2020-07-07T16:05:02Z beach: ym: A package is typically created by DEFPACKAGE. Quicklisp does not deal with packages. It deals with distributions of systems. 2020-07-07T16:05:04Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-07T16:05:18Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-07T16:06:24Z phoe: ym: where did the package come from? 2020-07-07T16:06:40Z phoe: if it came from Quicklisp, then update the "quicklisp" dist - it'll update the whole Quicklisp world 2020-07-07T16:07:10Z ym: Slime doesn't upgrades this way. 2020-07-07T16:07:16Z phoe: how did you install slime? 2020-07-07T16:07:27Z ym: (ql:quickinstall "swank") 2020-07-07T16:08:03Z ym: (ql:system-apropos "slime") shows slime-v2.24 version, but I have 2.23 and (ql:updata-all-dists) doesn't installs newer version. 2020-07-07T16:08:25Z phoe: what is ql:quickinstall 2020-07-07T16:08:29Z phoe: it's not a part of my Lisp image 2020-07-07T16:08:30Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-07T16:09:14Z ym: s/quickinstall/quickload/ 2020-07-07T16:09:15Z ym: sorry 2020-07-07T16:09:37Z phoe: no, this is how you load swank 2020-07-07T16:09:41Z phoe: how did you *install* slime? 2020-07-07T16:09:54Z phoe: quicklisp-slime-helper? elpa/melpa? spacemacs? 2020-07-07T16:11:25Z ym: What do you mean by install slime? Doesn't (ql:quickload "swank") downloads slime and swank together? 2020-07-07T16:12:37Z phoe: how does your emacs load slime? 2020-07-07T16:12:48Z ym: With require in .emacs file. 2020-07-07T16:13:06Z phoe: where are the source files for your slime located? 2020-07-07T16:13:28Z ym: ~/stand/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-* 2020-07-07T16:14:25Z voidlily joined #lisp 2020-07-07T16:15:14Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-07T16:15:29Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T16:15:46Z ym: Oh, wait. 2020-07-07T16:15:55Z phoe: no idea then. ensure that slime is loaded from that path and not from somewhere else. 2020-07-07T16:16:01Z ym: There was slime-git in my local-projects. 2020-07-07T16:16:06Z phoe: ha! 2020-07-07T16:16:08Z ym: Sorry, my fault. 2020-07-07T16:16:16Z phoe: I fell for that thing way too many times myself 2020-07-07T16:16:26Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T16:16:27Z phoe: so, sure, I know that pain 2020-07-07T16:22:58Z hdasch quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T16:24:19Z _death: there is ql:where-is-system 2020-07-07T16:25:40Z RukiSama quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-07T16:28:54Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-07-07T16:30:07Z hdasch joined #lisp 2020-07-07T16:30:45Z ym: Sadly, it can't be used from .emacs. 2020-07-07T16:31:23Z ym: Hmm... 2020-07-07T16:32:11Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-07T16:35:50Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T16:38:32Z drewc joined #lisp 2020-07-07T16:44:55Z ym: Strangely, sbcl --eval '(ql:where-is-system "swank")' doesn't returns the path. 2020-07-07T16:46:34Z phoe: what do you mean? 2020-07-07T16:46:40Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T16:46:46Z phoe: for me, it works - (ql:where-is-system "swank") ;=> #P"/home/phoe/.roswell/lisp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-v2.24/" 2020-07-07T16:47:39Z ym: For me it works from REPL, but doesn't from terminal. 2020-07-07T16:48:58Z cranes 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2020-07-07T20:58:44Z bsd joined #lisp 2020-07-07T20:58:56Z bsd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T20:59:45Z phoe: |3b|: what sorta dockerfile you need? just Lisp? 2020-07-07T21:00:05Z phoe: if yes, then https://github.com/daewok/docker-sbcl/ is updated 2020-07-07T21:00:22Z |3b|: looks like it would probably want sbcl and some preinstalled ql stuff (though hard to say which ql stuff) 2020-07-07T21:01:04Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-07T21:01:33Z phoe: will it have internet connection? if yes, then just install the client 2020-07-07T21:01:55Z phoe: and swank 2020-07-07T21:01:58Z |3b|: building base docker image for a language has internet, build and run of submissions do not 2020-07-07T21:01:58Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-07-07T21:02:09Z phoe: huh 2020-07-07T21:02:19Z phoe: they want to filter out javascript of what 2020-07-07T21:02:21Z phoe: or what* 2020-07-07T21:03:01Z |3b|: you can include all the libs you want in submission, so don't have to put everything in the base 2020-07-07T21:03:12Z phoe: you could try to cheat the system and predownload the Quicklisp world 2020-07-07T21:03:44Z |3b|: the js example includes a bunch of stuff https://github.com/icfpcontest2020/starterkit-javascript/tree/master/app/node_modules 2020-07-07T21:04:11Z phoe: dunno then, grab the most popular quicklisp systems or something 2020-07-07T21:04:17Z phoe: hard to say ahead of time 2020-07-07T21:04:35Z dim: save-lisp-and-die at build time to the rescue, then you have a docker container with an “augmented” SBCL image in there 2020-07-07T21:04:46Z ym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T21:04:49Z |3b|: so maybe just skip QL stuff in the base, and put it in the sample app 2020-07-07T21:04:52Z phoe: generally useful stuff like alexandria, serapeum, closer-mop, split-sequence, esrap, cl-ppcre, babel, flexi-streams, fast-io or what else 2020-07-07T21:04:56Z phoe: oooh or that 2020-07-07T21:05:06Z |3b|: yeah, probably preinstall stuff like that 2020-07-07T21:05:27Z |3b|: (sample needs enough to do an HTTP request anyway, so would probably have a bunch of those) 2020-07-07T21:06:07Z dim: drakma and all build dependencies, and the other http clients too, and puri, and html/xml parsers, and esrap, the short list isn't that short 2020-07-07T21:06:11Z phoe: oh and your favorite http clients, yes 2020-07-07T21:06:38Z dim: hell, I would use pgloader as a proxy to install many dependencies ;-) 2020-07-07T21:07:08Z dim was not a fan of having to package 60+ CL libs for debian to allow for having pgloader there 2020-07-07T21:07:16Z phoe: :D 2020-07-07T21:09:35Z |3b|: phoe: any idea if there is any benefits between daewok/docker-sbcl/ vs fukamachi/sbcl/ docker containers? 2020-07-07T21:10:10Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T21:11:06Z Lycurgus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T21:11:28Z quazimodo quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-07T21:11:47Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-07-07T21:12:14Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-07T21:12:34Z phoe: |3b|: no idea 2020-07-07T21:12:38Z |3b|: looks like latter might have roswell/ql already installed, former might have more choice of OS/arch (not sure that matters for this though) 2020-07-07T21:12:46Z phoe: other than for my natural distrust for fukamachiware 2020-07-07T21:12:57Z |3b|: :) 2020-07-07T21:12:58Z dim: one thing I would try with them is doing some SSL stuff or other things you might want to do that require loading a .so file ; it's surprisingly non trivial to make that work reliably, and you certainly want that solved in the docker container 2020-07-07T21:16:42Z BACKQUOTED-LIST joined #lisp 2020-07-07T21:16:59Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: has anybody here ever used lisp tkinter? 2020-07-07T21:18:49Z phoe: what's tkinter? 2020-07-07T21:19:11Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: toolkit for gui 2020-07-07T21:19:35Z phoe: it seems to be a Python thing 2020-07-07T21:20:35Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: theres tkinter for common lisp tho 2020-07-07T21:21:15Z phoe: link? 2020-07-07T21:21:26Z RukiSama joined #lisp 2020-07-07T21:21:47Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: ok 2020-07-07T21:21:52Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: give me a sec 2020-07-07T21:22:28Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/ 2020-07-07T21:22:31Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: here it is 2020-07-07T21:23:08Z |3b| tried used ltk one, but doesn't really remember anything about it 2020-07-07T21:23:44Z |3b|: and ltk is a cl alternative to tkinter, not really tkinter for cl :) 2020-07-07T21:23:48Z phoe: that's from 2011 2020-07-07T21:23:52Z phoe: the updated version seems to be at https://github.com/herth/ltk 2020-07-07T21:23:58Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: oh 2020-07-07T21:23:59Z |3b|: both are interfaces to tcl/tk 2020-07-07T21:24:05Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: yeah 2020-07-07T21:27:13Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: oh just figured out my problem 2020-07-07T21:27:24Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: guess i didnt need to ask 2020-07-07T21:27:28Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: sorry if i wasted time 2020-07-07T21:27:30Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-07T21:27:33Z BACKQUOTED-LIST quit 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and why, I did these https://gitlab.com/Harag/simple-sbcl-swank-docker and https://gitlab.com/Harag/sbcl-gcloud-run-workaround 2020-07-07T23:15:33Z igemnace joined #lisp 2020-07-07T23:41:01Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-07T23:58:40Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-08T00:05:07Z nopolitica joined #lisp 2020-07-08T00:11:30Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-08T00:14:25Z nopolitica quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 2020-07-08T00:30:04Z |3b|: ok, possibly figured out the docker stuff enough to send a pr https://github.com/icfpcontest2020/dockerfiles/pull/44 :) 2020-07-08T00:31:35Z |3b|: let me know if anyone sees anything obviously wrong, or suggestions for other C/CL libs worth including by default (went ahead and added some common ones to reduce build time, but people can overwrite parts of the ql dir with one in their submission for full control) 2020-07-08T00:38:15Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-08T00:38:32Z orivej joined 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What's the best approach, architecture/organization-wise, to ensure maximum utility for others while still attaining my aim of a combination parser? 2020-07-08T03:24:38Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-07-08T03:24:44Z Oladon: Morning, beach! 2020-07-08T03:24:46Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-08T03:25:31Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-08T03:26:02Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-08T03:35:05Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-08T03:48:42Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-08T03:48:45Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-08T03:50:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-08T04:03:58Z madage joined #lisp 2020-07-08T04:07:25Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-07-08T04:12:49Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-08T04:12:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-08T04:14:10Z JohnTalent quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-08T04:17:02Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-08T04:24:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-08T04:31:53Z gjulio__: morning beach 2020-07-08T04:32:53Z gjulio__: Hey is anyone willing to share a snippet of a .gitattributes file for handling control-m line endings in a *.lisp file? I've been trying a million tactics and I can't seem to resolve the problem. 2020-07-08T04:39:07Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-08T04:49:59Z cyberbanjo_ joined #lisp 2020-07-08T04:55:19Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-08T04:55:57Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-08T04:56:08Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-08T04:56:10Z beach: gjulio__: I suspect few people here have that problem. 2020-07-08T04:56:56Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-08T05:03:48Z gjulio__: i solved it. added *.lisp text eol=crlf to .gitattributes. then added (add-hook 'before-save-hook 'delete-trailing-whitespace) to .emacs and then created new files, moved my lisp file to the new file, added the new file to my git repo, and now it's working. it seems like the *.lisp text eol=crlf stuff isn't retroactive. maybe i'm wrong? 2020-07-08T05:03:53Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-08T05:05:02Z fe[nl]ix: I conform it's not retroactive 2020-07-08T05:05:09Z fe[nl]ix: are you using Windows ? 2020-07-08T05:05:28Z gjulio__: linux 2020-07-08T05:06:13Z fe[nl]ix: then what do you need that for ? 2020-07-08T05:07:23Z gjulio__: what do i need what for? 2020-07-08T05:08:29Z dvdmuckle quit (Quit: Bouncer Surgery) 2020-07-08T05:08:54Z beach: Why do you have CR characters in your files? 2020-07-08T05:11:03Z gjulio__: not sure. i did edit parts of the file on a different computer that was windows, maybe it's from that? 2020-07-08T05:11:40Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp 2020-07-08T05:12:07Z beach: Very likely. 2020-07-08T05:12:57Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-08T05:13:38Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-07-08T05:13:57Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T05:19:46Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-08T05:20:36Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-08T05:21:31Z froggey joined #lisp 2020-07-08T05:24:20Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-08T05:25:49Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-07-08T05:26:01Z Oladon quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-08T05:37:59Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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ZZZzzz…) 2020-07-08T13:15:11Z aeth: phoe: Not yet 2020-07-08T13:15:36Z aeth: hopefully at some point this week 2020-07-08T13:19:34Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-08T13:23:42Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-08T13:24:13Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T13:32:54Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-08T13:33:16Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-08T13:34:22Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-08T13:35:41Z dominic35 joined #lisp 2020-07-08T13:36:26Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-08T13:36:58Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-08T13:36:59Z dominic35 is now known as dominic34 2020-07-08T13:37:59Z jcowan joined #lisp 2020-07-08T13:38:46Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2020-07-08T13:40:08Z jcowan: What are the most common use cases for the syntaxes #n= and #n#, as opposed to the data structures they represent? Is it genuinely common to serialize such things as S-exprssions? 2020-07-08T13:40:34Z beach: I use it all the time. 2020-07-08T13:40:52Z jackdaniel: jcowan: (if (foobar xxx) (some-obsucring-macro-boo #1=(actual-form)) #1#) 2020-07-08T13:40:57Z beach: For example, if I have an application with some internal structured data, I use it as a format on disk. 2020-07-08T13:41:36Z jcowan: beach: thanks. jackdaniel: I didn't mean in code, but that usage is new to me, so I'm glad to see it. 2020-07-08T13:41:37Z beach: jcowan: Recently, the ASTs produced by the SICL compiler are saved like that, thereby producing FASL files . 2020-07-08T13:43:06Z jackdaniel: heh 2020-07-08T13:43:31Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-07-08T13:51:27Z pfdietz: I usually just do that with flet. 2020-07-08T13:51:34Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-08T13:51:40Z pfdietz: I usually just do that with flet. 2020-07-08T13:51:48Z pfdietz: oops 2020-07-08T13:52:12Z phoe: #1=I usually just do that with flet. 2020-07-08T13:52:15Z phoe: #1# 2020-07-08T13:52:21Z phoe: should have looked like that I guess 2020-07-08T13:52:25Z jackdaniel: (flet ((do-it () "I usually just do that with flet")) (do-it) (do-it)) 2020-07-08T13:52:39Z pfdietz: Totally intentional! #save 2020-07-08T13:52:42Z beach: jcowan: Here is an example. It is the AST for (defclass t () (:metaclass built-in-class)): http://metamodular.com/SICL/t-defclass.fasl. 2020-07-08T13:54:14Z beach: As you can see the vector for the source code is shared as #2= for instance. 2020-07-08T13:54:30Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-08T13:56:26Z pfdietz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T13:58:34Z beach: http://metamodular.com/bach262.gsh is an example of a score saved from Gsharp. 2020-07-08T13:59:20Z beach: As you can see, the staves are shared by many objects, like notes. 2020-07-08T14:00:53Z beach: In both cases, I use the character `[' as a reader macro. It takes a name of a class and a bunch of initargs, just like the protocol dictates. 2020-07-08T14:01:00Z phoe: but all that's just a fancy pretty-printed S-expression with *print-circle* being true 2020-07-08T14:01:05Z phoe: very nice! 2020-07-08T14:01:17Z beach: Thanks. Yes, very simple. 2020-07-08T14:01:26Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:01:27Z phoe: I assume [ makes instances at read-time 2020-07-08T14:01:55Z beach: Yes, [ is (apply #'make-instance (read-delimited-list....)) 2020-07-08T14:03:07Z beach: It creates a structure that is entirely isomorphic to the original one that was saved. 2020-07-08T14:03:46Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-08T14:04:19Z voidlily_ joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:04:46Z ayuce quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T14:05:04Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-08T14:05:51Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:08:10Z beach: Notice that no slots are mentioned. Only protocol elements. 2020-07-08T14:09:39Z phoe: you mean initargs, right? 2020-07-08T14:10:00Z beach: And the class name, yes. 2020-07-08T14:10:10Z phoe: how do you map concrete classes to protocol classes? I assume that GSHARP-BUFFER:BUFFER is a protocol class 2020-07-08T14:10:24Z beach: It's a concrete class. 2020-07-08T14:10:33Z phoe: oh! okay then, that solves one problem 2020-07-08T14:11:40Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:11:44Z JohnMS_WORK quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2020-07-08T14:11:58Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-08T14:12:07Z _death: how does it deal with cyclic graphs? 2020-07-08T14:12:30Z beach: With #n= and #n# which was the original question. 2020-07-08T14:12:33Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-08T14:13:59Z _death: beach: these can't create forward references 2020-07-08T14:14:21Z beach: ? 2020-07-08T14:14:47Z beach: The first time an object is printed, it is printed normally, preceded by #n=. 2020-07-08T14:14:51Z phoe: you don't need forward references 2020-07-08T14:15:03Z _death: for example, (defstruct link parent child) the parent link has to refer to the child 2020-07-08T14:15:48Z phoe: #1=[LINK :parent nil :child [LINK :parent #1# :child nil]] 2020-07-08T14:15:55Z _death: you do need forward references for cyclic graphs.. this is the same issue that CL designers solved in make-load-form by having it return a creation form and an initialization form 2020-07-08T14:16:12Z phoe: oh, like *that* 2020-07-08T14:16:16Z phoe: clhs make-load-form 2020-07-08T14:16:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm 2020-07-08T14:17:13Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-08T14:17:32Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:17:35Z phoe: I guess that this is because multiple MAKE-LOAD-FORMs do not necessarily depend on the slots of one another, whereas the above is just one big ball of cyclic references printed as a whole 2020-07-08T14:17:54Z beach: _death: I am not sure I follow. Try '#1=(a .#1#) at the REPL. 2020-07-08T14:17:58Z phoe: and also because the above utilizes the reader 2020-07-08T14:18:24Z phoe: whereas MAKE-LOAD-FORM must return a Lisp form, which is already post-READ 2020-07-08T14:19:27Z beach: _death: The reader patches the graph after it has been read. 2020-07-08T14:20:40Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:21:38Z beach: So when it sees #1#, it sticks in some unique temporary object, and enters the correspondence in a table. Then when the entire expression (in this case a single CONS cell) has been read, the graph is traversed, and the temporary object is replaced by what was returned as #1=. 2020-07-08T14:24:05Z beach: _death: Hello? Did you faint? 2020-07-08T14:24:11Z aeth: jcowan: One use is when *print-circle*. A useless example: https://gitlab.com/snippets/1761668 2020-07-08T14:24:13Z _death: I'm just thinking it through 2020-07-08T14:24:18Z beach: Ah, OK. 2020-07-08T14:24:39Z _death: I know about the reader syntax.. but as you say it needs to patch things 2020-07-08T14:24:52Z beach: Absolutely. 2020-07-08T14:24:56Z beach: And it does. 2020-07-08T14:25:48Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:26:04Z _death: so while the form looks like it supplies initargs, it's actually patching the slots? 2020-07-08T14:26:18Z beach: I guess this feature (and its power) is little known, hence the question from jcowan. I think it is fantastic and, like I said, I use it all the time. 2020-07-08T14:26:31Z phoe: not the slots I guess 2020-07-08T14:26:39Z phoe: the lists that are being read 2020-07-08T14:26:58Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:27:07Z phoe: and once the list is fully read and patched, APPLY #'MAKE-INSTANCE is called on it 2020-07-08T14:27:10Z phoe: that's how I understand it 2020-07-08T14:27:27Z beach: _death: In my examples, if it sees :some-initarg #n#, it is replaced by :some-initarg 2020-07-08T14:28:02Z beach: _death: Then, if it turns out that :some-initarg stores in a slot, then it is patched later. 2020-07-08T14:28:11Z _death: I see 2020-07-08T14:28:15Z phoe: and I assume that all of this patching is done by the reader on the lists, before any MAKE-INSTANCE is even called 2020-07-08T14:28:27Z TMA: unless #n# is encountered before #n=, there is no need to patch if you can construct the object in some incomplete state (the state between allocate-instance and initialize-instance) 2020-07-08T14:28:43Z beach: phoe: Why do you assume that? 2020-07-08T14:28:47Z Bike: TMA: but the reader doesn't know how to do that. 2020-07-08T14:29:20Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:29:29Z jackdaniel: had there been instances to be serialized, then the reader macro [ wouldn't make sense 2020-07-08T14:29:47Z phoe: beach: you said, "[ is (apply #'make-instance (read-delimited-list....))" 2020-07-08T14:29:55Z jackdaniel: and there is no need to define a method on make-load-form on simple objects, like 3 or :staff 2020-07-08T14:30:04Z phoe: this means that READ-DELIMITED-LIST must finish operating before MAKE-INSTANCE is called 2020-07-08T14:30:06Z beach: phoe: Yes, and the patching is done on the created instance. 2020-07-08T14:30:07Z kmeow quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-08T14:30:12Z beach: Oh, sure. 2020-07-08T14:30:20Z beach: But no patching takes place then. 2020-07-08T14:30:35Z phoe: which means that the reading (including the patching!) must be complete before MAKE-INSTANCE is called 2020-07-08T14:30:49Z beach: Why do you make that conclusion? 2020-07-08T14:30:53Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-08T14:31:11Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:31:19Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:31:22Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:31:57Z jcowan: beach: _death is correct, 2.4.8.16 explicitly forbids forward references with #n#, so no patching is necessary. 2020-07-08T14:32:08Z Bike: reading a standard-object with circular references in it isn't much different from reading a vector with em 2020-07-08T14:32:11Z phoe: because #1= must happen before #1# - if the reader stores the EQ references in some sort of read-time hash table, it can then directly look up the object and insert it there 2020-07-08T14:32:20Z phoe: clhs 2.4.8.16 2020-07-08T14:32:20Z specbot: Sharpsign Sharpsign: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm 2020-07-08T14:32:29Z beach: phoe: Suppose I have #1=[MY-CLASS :stuff #1#] 2020-07-08T14:33:04Z phoe: oooh. that's no list. 2020-07-08T14:33:19Z phoe: that's a standard object with an initarg. 2020-07-08T14:33:33Z phoe: you can't have an instance before calling MAKE-INSTANCE so there is nothing to insert there. 2020-07-08T14:33:37Z phoe: right, I see it now. 2020-07-08T14:33:53Z beach: phoe: First (my-class :stuff #1#) is read, but since we don't know #1#, we replace it with and then we call (make-instance 'my-class :stuff ) 2020-07-08T14:34:18Z beach: phoe: Then the result of that creation is assigned to #1=. 2020-07-08T14:34:39Z beach: Finally, we traverse the graph, find that some instance of my-class has in it. 2020-07-08T14:34:54Z beach: So we replace that occurrence with the intance. 2020-07-08T14:34:56Z beach: instance. 2020-07-08T14:35:17Z beach: phoe: Is that clear now? 2020-07-08T14:35:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T14:35:29Z jcowan: I'm talking only about what has to happen at read time. 2020-07-08T14:35:59Z beach: jcowan: That is precisely what we have been showing in detail. 2020-07-08T14:36:01Z phoe: beach: yes, that's clear now. Thanks. 2020-07-08T14:36:02Z jcowan: #1=[MY-CLASS :stuff #1#] is not readable. 2020-07-08T14:36:08Z beach: Sure it is. 2020-07-08T14:36:13Z beach: That's how I read it. 2020-07-08T14:36:46Z beach: Like I said, [ is a reader macro that does (apply #'make-instance (read-delimited-list ...)) 2020-07-08T14:36:47Z _death: beach: but why use make-instance and not allocate-instance then? 2020-07-08T14:36:56Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:37:06Z beach: Why would I do that? 2020-07-08T14:37:09Z jcowan: Sorry, I missed that about [ 2020-07-08T14:37:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:37:34Z _death: beach: well, what is ? if the slot has a :type integer it must be an integer or a special value indicated that the slot is unbound 2020-07-08T14:37:41Z _death: *indicating 2020-07-08T14:37:56Z ayuce quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-08T14:37:57Z beach: _death: I am sure that type checking is disabled during reading. 2020-07-08T14:38:24Z beach: Or maybe it uses an instance of the type that the slot has, if it is a slot. 2020-07-08T14:39:09Z beach: If the slot is unbound, then obviously it does not need patching. 2020-07-08T14:39:10Z Bike: this same problem comes up with the #s reader, which is standard. 2020-07-08T14:39:13Z _death: beach: ok.. an alternative design would be to use the two forms from make-load-form.. 2020-07-08T14:39:28Z beach: _death: An alternative design for what? 2020-07-08T14:40:12Z _death: for the external format exemplified by the .gsh file 2020-07-08T14:40:39Z beach: Why would I make life harder for myself? The reader can already do this. 2020-07-08T14:40:59Z beach: I would have to traverse the graph myself then. 2020-07-08T14:41:14Z beach: Now, I just do (PRINT ...) 2020-07-08T14:42:09Z _death: but do you just READ?.. you said that the slots need patching afterwards 2020-07-08T14:42:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-08T14:42:27Z Bike: that's the standard ## macro stuff, beach doesn't have to write it 2020-07-08T14:42:31Z beach: READ patches automatically. 2020-07-08T14:42:50Z beach: _death: I just do (READ). 2020-07-08T14:43:01Z catern quit (Excess Flood) 2020-07-08T14:43:02Z _death: I guess because you defined the #\[ reader macro 2020-07-08T14:43:20Z catern joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:43:24Z beach: That's so that I can print standard objects. 2020-07-08T14:43:40Z _death: right.. in a readable way 2020-07-08T14:43:58Z beach: Yes, it would be foolish to do otherwise. :) 2020-07-08T14:44:22Z nikkal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T14:46:02Z beach: For each class, I also have to give pairs :initarg reader corresponding to the protocol that the class respects. 2020-07-08T14:47:31Z _death: the analogue of make-load-form-saving-slots? 2020-07-08T14:48:08Z beach: Probably not quite. There are no slots mentioned here. 2020-07-08T14:49:00Z beach: I can have a class with a slot AGE but produce initargs :DATE-OF-BIRTH DATE-OF-BIRTH. 2020-07-08T14:49:35Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:50:23Z _death: right, so you do that on the level of initargs 2020-07-08T14:50:26Z beach: And, also, if I were to use make-load-form... I would have to LOAD the file, right? 2020-07-08T14:50:52Z _death: yes, you'd need to evaluate the forms 2020-07-08T14:51:00Z beach: That's very dangerous. 2020-07-08T14:51:10Z _death: READing is also dangerous :) 2020-07-08T14:51:17Z beach: Why? 2020-07-08T14:51:23Z beach: I obviously disable #. 2020-07-08T14:51:26Z phoe: _death: so is loading FASLs 2020-07-08T14:51:31Z Bike: make-instance has arbitrary behavior, so it's going ot be dangerous 2020-07-08T14:52:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:52:44Z beach: _death: The initarg and the reader are part of the protocol and I want the saved file to create a graph using the protocol. That way, I can change the physical structure between save and load. 2020-07-08T14:52:58Z _death: I guess READing is dangerous because you don't have that much control over the reader 2020-07-08T14:53:16Z Bike: you don't have much control over the loader either. i don't understand the debate here 2020-07-08T14:53:36Z Bike: you can easily get arbitrary code evaluated either way 2020-07-08T14:53:49Z Bike: i mean there's no way to allocate an instance without calling allocate-instance, which can have whatever user methods 2020-07-08T14:54:01Z beach: Bike: How would you do that with make-instance? 2020-07-08T14:54:25Z beach: Bike: If I don't allow external code to be loaded, how do those method come into existence? 2020-07-08T14:54:35Z JohnTalent joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:54:45Z Bike: well that sounds more like you can't execute arbitrary code either way 2020-07-08T14:54:55Z _death: I mean dangerous in that it there are arbitrary limits you can't control when invoking the reader 2020-07-08T14:55:28Z beach: Whatever. I think I am too tired for this. 2020-07-08T14:56:29Z _death: for example the length and depth of lists, symbol names, magnitudes of numbers, etc. 2020-07-08T14:57:07Z beach: Yeah, I should have used make-load-form instead. My bad. Sorry. 2020-07-08T14:57:12Z _death: no 2020-07-08T14:57:20Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-08T14:57:33Z phoe: _death: I assume that the FASL files are trusted and don't contain hostile data 2020-07-08T14:57:48Z beach: This kind of exchange makes me upset, so I'll quit now. 2020-07-08T14:57:57Z phoe: such as a class name that is ten gigabytes long 2020-07-08T14:58:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T14:58:11Z joels joined #lisp 2020-07-08T14:58:15Z Bike: you're arguing about which of two standard mechanisms to use and both of thos emechanisms are chock full of hooks to do arbitrary things at arbitrary times, so you have to control what files are being loaded or something. both can deal with circular structures and custom object definitions. 2020-07-08T14:58:25Z _death: beach: this is unrelated to the make-load-form remarks.. I'm just saying READ is "dangerous" too :).. I did not mean to say that the make-load-form design is better or anything, just tried to understand this format 2020-07-08T14:58:37Z beach: I don't care anymore. 2020-07-08T14:58:52Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-08T15:00:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-07-08T15:03:45Z tich quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T15:04:09Z theseb joined #lisp 2020-07-08T15:05:01Z theseb: What is easiest way to implement *global variables* in a common lisp like implementation I wrote? 2020-07-08T15:05:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-08T15:05:23Z theseb: What I mean is....I want to set x in a function and then have value OUTSIDE the function be modified 2020-07-08T15:05:25Z theseb: possible? 2020-07-08T15:06:02Z theseb: e.g. x = 3 ; set x = 4 in f(x) ; print x outside of f and get 4 2020-07-08T15:06:55Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-08T15:07:51Z beach: theseb: Most existing Common Lisp implementations have a slot in the symbol. 2020-07-08T15:08:51Z phoe: alternatively you can make some sort of global hashtable whose keys are symbols and whose values are variable values 2020-07-08T15:09:06Z beach: theseb: Not that I know how your implementation works. I am just telling you what is usually done. 2020-07-08T15:10:02Z gjulio__ joined #lisp 2020-07-08T15:10:13Z beach: theseb: The advantage of the symbol slot is that the symbol becomes available to the program at read time, so it is just an indirection to set the value. 2020-07-08T15:10:42Z beach: theseb: The hash table solution is slower, because you need, well, a hash-table access for each operation. 2020-07-08T15:11:00Z theseb: phoe: if a global table sets variable x to equal variable y...what do you do next? i'm intrigued 2020-07-08T15:11:21Z beach: theseb: Common Lisp doesn't work the way you may think. 2020-07-08T15:11:22Z JohnTalent quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-08T15:11:33Z beach: Assigning doesn't create a link between variables. 2020-07-08T15:11:45Z beach: The value of one is accessed and then given to the other. 2020-07-08T15:11:54Z beach: Just like any programming language. 2020-07-08T15:11:55Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T15:12:18Z phoe: theseb: (defvar *x* 42) (defvar *y* *x*) 2020-07-08T15:12:25Z phoe: *y* is 42 2020-07-08T15:12:33Z theseb: phoe: yes 2020-07-08T15:12:35Z phoe: don't know what you expect 2020-07-08T15:12:47Z phoe: (setf *x* 24) 2020-07-08T15:12:52Z phoe: *x* is 24, *y* is 42 2020-07-08T15:12:56Z theseb: phoe: right 2020-07-08T15:13:03Z phoe: same if you use a hash table 2020-07-08T15:13:05Z jcowan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T15:13:07Z Bike: so what does your "I'm intrigued" comment mean. 2020-07-08T15:13:10Z Bike: what is intriguing 2020-07-08T15:13:26Z theseb: phoe: i understand all that but how will that help me modify *x* or *y* in a function f? 2020-07-08T15:13:33Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-08T15:13:39Z Bike: the function modifies the hash table. 2020-07-08T15:13:41Z phoe: you grab the symbol itself and use it as a key to the hash table 2020-07-08T15:13:52Z theseb: Bike: intriguing because slots sounded complicated but variable setting is something i can do and understand 2020-07-08T15:13:54Z phoe: that's how you can modify the hash table 2020-07-08T15:14:21Z Bike: i don't think any of these implementations of global variables is very complicated. neither is the sicl one 2020-07-08T15:14:50Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-08T15:14:52Z Bike: it does get complicated when you start having local specials and thread locality, but for globals, whatever 2020-07-08T15:15:40Z nicktick quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-08T15:16:17Z beach: I am guessing that theseb doesn't know how to get the symbol into the executable code. 2020-07-08T15:16:28Z phoe: just quote it 2020-07-08T15:16:38Z beach: phoe: This is not Common Lisp. 2020-07-08T15:16:39Z phoe: ...if your language has a quote 2020-07-08T15:16:48Z theseb: Bike: to give you context.....the reason this came up is i'm implementing a print function by appending to a global variable called output 2020-07-08T15:17:07Z theseb: i.e. when you "print" you store strings in a list called the output list 2020-07-08T15:17:08Z beach: But then, it all depends on the implementation, and I suspect it is very different from the way Common Lisp and indeed other languages as well, are implemented. 2020-07-08T15:17:35Z theseb: I was having trouble modifying this output list in some places 2020-07-08T15:18:22Z theseb: errr i could modify it anywhere I wanted but the changes would disappear once I left a scope ;) 2020-07-08T15:18:54Z ArthurStrong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-08T15:18:55Z Bike: i don't think the context matters. it's pretty simple. you have a persistent hash table and you modify that table 2020-07-08T15:19:04Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-08T15:19:14Z Bike: i have no idea what your language targets or anything. maybe it's not image based. in that case you'd be really far off topic for this channel 2020-07-08T15:20:10Z beach: theseb: Your questions are essentially about how to implement a programming language. That is really too general for #lisp. If you want to know how to implement Common Lisp, we can help you with that, but it is nearly impossible for us to debug a problem in your own implementation of a language that is not Common Lisp. 2020-07-08T15:20:37Z beach: And a very special implementation too, it seems. 2020-07-08T15:20:40Z theseb: my language is basically what SICP says 2020-07-08T15:21:04Z pfdietz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T15:21:12Z phoe: then you could use the knowledge SICP provides about environments 2020-07-08T15:21:23Z beach: theseb: Do you have READ? 2020-07-08T15:21:31Z Bike: sicp probably uses alists. same principle. 2020-07-08T15:22:58Z theseb: What do you think of this...I'm going to open source a project called "Program To Processor"....you start with a minimal Python variant called Snake and convert to AST...then convert the AST to a minimal intermediate Lisp code...then to a simple virtual processor...All the parts are written in python for easy reading 2020-07-08T15:23:23Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-08T15:23:26Z theseb: So basically the entire stack and all code in all layers will be accessible and understandable in python 2020-07-08T15:23:36Z Bike: i mean i like lisp better than python, which is why i'm in the lisp channel and not the python channel. 2020-07-08T15:23:39Z theseb: so my little lisp thing is the executable intermediate code layer 2020-07-08T15:23:42Z nikkal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T15:23:51Z theseb: I need to have it as simple as possible so students can grok whole thing 2020-07-08T15:24:10Z beach: It sounds complicated already. 2020-07-08T15:24:13Z theseb: Bike: i see part of this project as a way to introduce Lisp as well 2020-07-08T15:24:27Z jackdaniel: python with all its arbitrary syntactic rules (and oh my god spaces) is not easy to read, at most it is easy to evangelise as easy to read :) 2020-07-08T15:24:29Z Bike: you can teach in lisp. that's what sicp is, after all. 2020-07-08T15:24:30Z theseb: Bike: "Oh wow that intermediate language is really cool and elegant!" 2020-07-08T15:24:41Z theseb: "i want to learn more about this lisp thing" 2020-07-08T15:25:00Z theseb: "Is is like a lean slimmed down python!" 2020-07-08T15:25:22Z Bike left #lisp 2020-07-08T15:25:39Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-08T15:26:16Z jackdaniel: I think that this is as far from Common Lisp as one could get having parenthesis involved 2020-07-08T15:27:16Z theseb: jackdaniel: ;) 2020-07-08T15:27:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-07-08T15:27:40Z joels: There's always value in spreading some lisp in areas where there is none 2020-07-08T15:27:42Z jackdaniel: and by saying taht I meant that this is offtopic on this channel 2020-07-08T15:28:26Z theseb: jackdaniel: i guess i'm becoming the black sheep of the channel 2020-07-08T15:29:10Z beach: theseb: You are asking impossible questions, and you don't understand the recommendations, so it is very frustrating. 2020-07-08T15:31:52Z theseb: beach: sorry i'm slow....i think i understand why a hashtable is the answer now....if you modify e.g. x=4 in a function those changes will disappear when you leave scope but if x = more complex object like a hash table then changes will survive when you leave scope....is that it? 2020-07-08T15:32:06Z phoe: wait a second 2020-07-08T15:32:09Z phoe: X is a global variable 2020-07-08T15:32:12Z phoe: so it will never go out of scope 2020-07-08T15:32:22Z phoe: so scopes are totally irrelevant 2020-07-08T15:32:43Z beach: theseb: x is not a hash table. It is a symbol, and it is used as a key in a hash table. 2020-07-08T15:32:57Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-08T15:32:57Z beach: That's an example of what I was just saying. 2020-07-08T15:33:02Z theseb: beach: oh you pass in the *key* to the function 2020-07-08T15:33:18Z phoe: yes, that's what I said twenty minutes ago 2020-07-08T15:33:21Z phoe: 17:13 < phoe> you grab the symbol itself and use it as a key to the hash table 2020-07-08T15:33:34Z theseb: not sure why i'm so slow to "get" this stuff 2020-07-08T15:33:51Z beach: x = 4 becomes (setf (gethash 'x *global-hash-table-containing-global-values*) 4) 2020-07-08T15:34:50Z beach: theseb: My hypothesis is that it is time for you to read about compiler design as opposed to guessing how it might be done. 2020-07-08T15:35:20Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-08T15:35:56Z duuqnd joined #lisp 2020-07-08T15:37:12Z _death: beach: I wrote a bit of code and I think I understand what happens where/when better now.. e.g., 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2020-07-09T03:26:14Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-09T03:26:18Z JohnTalent quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-09T03:26:45Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-09T03:29:09Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-09T03:31:32Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-07-09T03:35:37Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-09T03:37:07Z aaaaaa: beach: good morning. Long time no see 2020-07-09T03:37:35Z beach: That must be because of your absence. I've been here. 2020-07-09T03:38:15Z aaaaaa: beach: Yes. Been busy... 2020-07-09T03:38:42Z beach: You must have changed your nick too. 2020-07-09T03:38:53Z aaaaaa: beach: Yes. I was ArthurStrong 2020-07-09T03:39:00Z beach: Ah, I see now. 2020-07-09T03:39:13Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-09T03:43:46Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-09T03:44:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-09T03:48:34Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-09T03:56:52Z z3t0: beach: morning! 2020-07-09T04:01:22Z JohnTalent joined #lisp 2020-07-09T04:04:57Z beach: z3t0: [Looking at the channel logs] A few days ago, fbmnds showed up here to announce the intention of using EQL5 with ECL on Android etc. Not sure whether you are still interested in that stuff. 2020-07-09T04:06:35Z JohnTalent quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-09T04:07:24Z seok joined #lisp 2020-07-09T04:07:54Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-07-09T04:08:08Z seok: I'm thinking of not using a db and just using lisp objects 2020-07-09T04:08:33Z beach: Good idea. 2020-07-09T04:08:35Z seok: would this have lower throughput / performance for predicate based searches? 2020-07-09T04:08:46Z seok: compared to sql/ or other dbs 2020-07-09T04:08:55Z beach: How big is your data set? 2020-07-09T04:09:07Z seok: I dunno, I want to get it pretty big 2020-07-09T04:09:27Z beach: More than 10GB? 2020-07-09T04:09:53Z seok: let's say facebook or reddit ran in-memory on lisp 2020-07-09T04:10:36Z seok: I reckon id-based searches would do fine 2020-07-09T04:10:50Z seok: but concerned about comparison searches etc 2020-07-09T04:12:04Z seok: I don't think it will get bigger than 10gb soon, but in the future maybe? 2020-07-09T04:12:42Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-09T04:12:48Z beach: If things will fit in RAM, then I am guessing it will always be faster than a traditional relational database manager. 2020-07-09T04:12:59Z seok: Yes, that's what I'm expecting 2020-07-09T04:13:13Z seok: I don't see a reason why not 2020-07-09T04:14:10Z seok: To search for a row with a integer field between x and y, a traditional db still loops through the entire table doesn't it? 2020-07-09T04:14:44Z beach: I am no expert, so I won't attempt to guess. 2020-07-09T04:15:22Z beach: But whatever optimization tricks a database manager can do, you should be able to do as well, and faster. 2020-07-09T04:15:43Z seok: cool 2020-07-09T04:15:52Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-09T04:23:27Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-09T04:23:56Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2020-07-09T04:26:55Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-09T04:31:35Z seok quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T04:32:22Z z3t0: beach: still very interested yes! I've been eyeing mocl even. 2020-07-09T04:32:50Z z3t0: is there somewhere I can read more about this? 2020-07-09T04:33:03Z clothespin joined #lisp 2020-07-09T04:35:09Z clothespin_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-09T04:43:24Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-09T04:45:39Z beach: Try the channel logs. I don't know anything more than that. Or perhaps jackdaniel knows more. 2020-07-09T04:53:29Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-09T04:57:53Z z3t0: will do thanks 2020-07-09T04:58:09Z z3t0: On a sidenote, anyone here playing around with lisp and pinephones? 2020-07-09T05:00:25Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:01:55Z ebt joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:06:28Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:08:31Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:08:59Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T05:09:16Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:11:14Z OpenZen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-09T05:11:31Z MidHotaru joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:13:46Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:14:29Z libertyprime quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T05:15:41Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:25:16Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-07-09T05:27:07Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:33:39Z Harag joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:35:11Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:46:03Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-07-09T05:46:24Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:49:51Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2020-07-09T05:51:10Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-09T05:51:25Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:55:22Z phoe: minion: memo for seok: traditional DBs often use indices to speed up searches and avoid full loops over tables, so it is possible that an in-memory linear iteration over a whole table is going to be *slower* than database access that is logarithmic or better - that's a data structure problem 2020-07-09T05:55:22Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell seok when he/she/it next speaks. 2020-07-09T05:57:55Z marusich joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:58:21Z Archenoth joined #lisp 2020-07-09T05:59:54Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-09T06:08:27Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:10:02Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T06:11:24Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-09T06:14:00Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-09T06:14:06Z fbmnds joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:15:01Z fbmnds: good morning 2020-07-09T06:16:06Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T06:16:07Z fbmnds: beach: thank you for passing the topic to z3t0: 2020-07-09T06:17:42Z beach: fbmnds: Pleasure. 2020-07-09T06:17:56Z fbmnds: z3t0: afaik, there is not much published around EQL5 - I can recommend though the examples on https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5 2020-07-09T06:19:34Z fbmnds: beach: I am checking the logs every once and a while - I am using the chat more like a black board 2020-07-09T06:21:24Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-07-09T06:25:50Z beach: I see. 2020-07-09T06:25:53Z z3t0: fbmnds: thanks, I have a project in mind where I want to write a kitchen sink android app for capturing tasks and notes temporarily. Didn't want to touch java... Hopefully EQL suits my use case 2020-07-09T06:26:34Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:26:36Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-09T06:26:38Z stoneglass joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:27:21Z z3t0 left #lisp 2020-07-09T06:30:03Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-09T06:30:18Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:31:33Z fbmnds: z3t0: you may want to read https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/posts/Lisp-ECL-and-QML-Qt5-on-Android.html 2020-07-09T06:32:27Z fbmnds: z3t0: there you also find the download link for the Android apps which work fine; see also https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5-Android 2020-07-09T06:32:37Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-09T06:32:49Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-09T06:33:08Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:33:41Z KingRiver joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:34:16Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:34:53Z bsd4me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-09T06:37:24Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T06:42:32Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-09T06:45:57Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:49:26Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:53:13Z fbmnds: I guess, some traffic has been generated https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5-Android/-/issues/17 2020-07-09T06:54:27Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:55:05Z terrorjack quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-09T06:55:07Z mpontillo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-09T06:55:15Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-09T06:55:23Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-09T06:56:30Z mpontillo joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:56:52Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:57:00Z gendl joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:57:13Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-07-09T06:57:56Z rme quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 2020-07-09T06:58:58Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-09T07:05:25Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-07-09T07:07:22Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-09T07:21:03Z MidHotaru quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-09T07:24:33Z phoe: hey that's me 2020-07-09T07:28:02Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-09T07:29:54Z fbmnds: phoe: thought so 2020-07-09T07:34:08Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-09T07:34:17Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-09T07:43:23Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-09T07:44:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-09T07:45:30Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-09T07:45:43Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-09T07:52:20Z fbmnds quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-07-09T07:55:36Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-09T07:58:26Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-07-09T07:58:34Z clintm``` joined #lisp 2020-07-09T07:59:56Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:01:18Z clintm`` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-09T08:03:48Z vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-09T08:04:50Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-09T08:04:59Z gjnoonan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-09T08:05:03Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-09T08:05:48Z vutral joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:05:57Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-09T08:06:07Z billstclair joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:06:29Z XachX joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:06:49Z Balooga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-09T08:06:51Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 2020-07-09T08:06:56Z drainful joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:07:09Z Balooga joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:07:17Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-09T08:07:38Z gjnoonan joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:09:06Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-09T08:15:21Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-09T08:16:47Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:22:41Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:24:38Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:29:39Z seok joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:32:10Z seok: phoe: nice, thank you 2020-07-09T08:32:10Z minion: seok, memo from phoe: traditional DBs often use indices to speed up searches and avoid full loops over tables, so it is possible that an in-memory linear iteration over a whole table is going to be *slower* than database access that is logarithmic or better - that's a data structure problem 2020-07-09T08:32:42Z seok: I'm trying to look up on this topic, what would be the search keywords? 2020-07-09T08:33:31Z seok: do traditional databases create an index for every field so it can do sorts? 2020-07-09T08:33:46Z phoe: seok: I just found an article on Hacker News yesterday that sounds really related - https://blog.dbi-services.com/the-myth-of-nosql-vs-rdbms-joins-dont-scale/ 2020-07-09T08:34:31Z phoe: tl;dr you can define where indices should be created by the database, and that allows the DB to avoid full table scans. that's off-topic for #lisp, but that article should give you pointers and search keywords for future digging up 2020-07-09T08:35:04Z phoe: this article also compares SQL databases to NoSQL databases a little bit, and in-memory key-value stores are a form of NoSQL - hence further relevance to your topic 2020-07-09T08:37:53Z syminal joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:38:25Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T08:39:29Z syminal quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-09T08:41:37Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:42:12Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:46:21Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T08:47:40Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-09T08:48:13Z cmatei joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:49:39Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-09T08:52:10Z datajerk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-09T09:01:01Z datajerk joined #lisp 2020-07-09T09:01:29Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T09:09:15Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-09T09:10:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-09T09:15:20Z pve: Hi, is loading a source file equivalent to binding *package* and *readtable* and then doing roughly (do-until-eof (eval (read file-stream)))? 2020-07-09T09:16:43Z beach: Sounds about right. Why do you ask? 2020-07-09T09:17:22Z polaris joined #lisp 2020-07-09T09:18:26Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-07-09T09:18:35Z jdz: There are also *load-pathname* and *load-truename*, and interaction with EVAL-WHEN I'm not quite sure about. 2020-07-09T09:19:05Z pve: beach: my toy language has a load-source-file function, and I was just considering how similar it is to CL:LOAD 2020-07-09T09:19:33Z beach: Hmm, OK. 2020-07-09T09:19:33Z pve: I mean, I suppose would like it to be as similar as possible 2020-07-09T09:20:07Z beach: If you want it to be as similar as possible, why don't you implement Common Lisp? 2020-07-09T09:20:08Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-09T09:21:04Z beach: I should ask it differently: Why are you working on implementing a toy language? 2020-07-09T09:21:34Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-09T09:22:14Z drainful quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-09T09:22:42Z phoe: beach: sounds like it's smalltalk-on-CL 2020-07-09T09:22:48Z pve: I'm simply exploring what it is like to build a language on top of CL 2020-07-09T09:23:00Z beach: OK. 2020-07-09T09:25:37Z pve: I'm now at the point where I can compile and load source files into my running lisp with C-c C-k, so I'm pretty happy with that 2020-07-09T09:26:47Z pve: "compile" meaning go from the smalltalk-like syntax to CL 2020-07-09T09:29:42Z pve: jdz: good point about *load-pathname* and *load-truename* 2020-07-09T09:30:50Z duuqnd joined #lisp 2020-07-09T09:42:47Z clintm``` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-09T09:50:06Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-07-09T09:56:01Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-09T09:56:26Z freshpassport joined #lisp 2020-07-09T10:04:06Z i0_202365 joined #lisp 2020-07-09T10:10:17Z dim: seok: about database vs lisp objects, the main question is about concurrency behavior. how do you intend to approach concurrent edits to the same objects from multiple threads? can you run more than one lisp image with the same dataset? that's where a database solves many problems, concurrent accesses to a single data set, with business guarantees (constraints), and then ACID is a nice set of properties to have, and all falls down from there, including SQL 2020-07-09T10:10:59Z seok: only intend to use one thread for writing 2020-07-09T10:11:10Z dim: SQL allows to send computations where the data is and in a way that remains ACID compliant, and makes it easy enough to reason about etc 2020-07-09T10:11:33Z seok: I don't think acid is so difficult to implement 2020-07-09T10:11:40Z dim: seok: if you have a solid answer then it's all good, I'm trying to say that this is the main question you should consider here, in my opinion 2020-07-09T10:11:51Z dim: ahahahahahah 2020-07-09T10:11:52Z seok: plus, I intend to write my application as append only 2020-07-09T10:12:18Z seok: I'm more concerned about throughput 2020-07-09T10:12:23Z dim: sorry about that, but yeah, sure, it took only years and years of very hard work from very talented people to implement ACID, and almost all implementations of it are buggy in different ways 2020-07-09T10:12:52Z dim: seok: if you think ACID isn't so difficult, may I suggest you spend some quality time reading https://jepsen.io ? 2020-07-09T10:13:07Z seok: Well, it probably is hard trying to write a general solution for acid indeed! 2020-07-09T10:13:52Z dim: if you can understand this article on the first read, then maybe you can implement your own acid needs yourself, otherwise I personnaly would not even try: https://jepsen.io/analyses/postgresql-12.3 2020-07-09T10:15:05Z seok: I agree with what you are saying that there are certainly bug-prone areas for a general solution database accommodating multiple read write clients, 2020-07-09T10:15:10Z dim: anyway, I got triggered with database vs internal in-memory objects, the trade-off is all about concurrency, that's my message ;-) 2020-07-09T10:15:15Z seok: but that's not what I'm trying to write though 2020-07-09T10:15:27Z vaporatorius__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-09T10:16:02Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-09T10:16:04Z dim: sounds good then, seems like you actually have a choice 2020-07-09T10:16:18Z dim: (I mean a choice that's different from implementing ACID yourself) 2020-07-09T10:16:52Z seok: I'm bit scared of running out of memory writing poor search solutions 2020-07-09T10:16:57Z seok: : ( 2020-07-09T10:17:34Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2020-07-09T10:17:45Z seok: I'm still reading the article phoe sent me xD 2020-07-09T10:17:50Z dim: PAIP has nice chapters all about solving search problems in lisp, including writing a prolog interpreter from scratch and then a compiler to optimise it 2020-07-09T10:18:01Z seok: paip? 2020-07-09T10:18:24Z dim: see https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp 2020-07-09T10:18:36Z seok: At this stage, I'm wondering if sbcl's sort is suffice for large arrays 2020-07-09T10:18:50Z seok: Ah thank you 2020-07-09T10:20:02Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-09T10:23:11Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-07-09T10:24:06Z Harag: seok: I run 10 mil records in a in memory database on sbcl no problem and searches can be done in sub seconds on 10 mil 2020-07-09T10:24:11Z Harag: sub second 2020-07-09T10:24:35Z seok: @Harag Thats great to hear! 2020-07-09T10:24:52Z seok: I don't need to do special indexing or anything? 2020-07-09T10:24:52Z Harag: seok: you can look at cl-naive-store 2020-07-09T10:25:33Z Harag: if you are not worried about creating duplicates then no indexing needed 2020-07-09T10:26:31Z Harag: and there is very little difference in scanning a list and array in sbcl 2020-07-09T10:26:49Z Harag: once again sub second 2020-07-09T10:27:06Z seok: but getting a value out of array is O(1) isn't it? 2020-07-09T10:27:16Z Harag: if you have the index 2020-07-09T10:27:20Z seok: yes 2020-07-09T10:27:27Z Harag: so you need indexing 2020-07-09T10:27:40Z seok: Sometimes I will have the index 2020-07-09T10:27:41Z Harag: then a hashtable would give more flexibility 2020-07-09T10:27:50Z seok: sometimes I will need to find a value 2020-07-09T10:28:04Z ym joined #lisp 2020-07-09T10:28:06Z Harag: gives you "comprehensible" key/index 2020-07-09T10:28:24Z Harag: and once again the speed difference is small 2020-07-09T10:29:03Z Harag: seok we can take this off line if want to discuss it further, we are poluting ;) 2020-07-09T10:29:14Z seok: Sure! 2020-07-09T10:29:16Z seok: : D 2020-07-09T10:29:54Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2020-07-09T10:31:49Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-09T10:32:15Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-09T10:32:45Z gxt quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-09T10:39:42Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-07-09T10:41:37Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-09T10:41:55Z epony quit (Quit: reconfigure) 2020-07-09T10:42:29Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-07-09T10:42:57Z seok: How do I find out how much memory an object is using? 2020-07-09T10:43:27Z epony joined #lisp 2020-07-09T10:47:07Z red-dot joined #lisp 2020-07-09T10:48:42Z KingRiver quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-09T10:51:34Z red-dot: Hola everyone. For those using gitlab.commonlisp.net: is there something special you need to do to fork a repository? All the fork buttons are greyed out for me. 2020-07-09T10:52:35Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-09T10:52:53Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-09T11:00:44Z red-dot: That's interesting. It looks like there are 0 forks of all the projects I looked at. Are forks disabled on gitlab.commonlisp.net? If so, how to people contribute improvements? 2020-07-09T11:02:21Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-09T11:04:48Z |3b|: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria and https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf seem to have forks, though not sure how to see it on those pages 2020-07-09T11:06:20Z phoe: red-dot: yes 2020-07-09T11:06:37Z phoe: go to #common-lisp.net and ask ehuelsmann for boosting your repo limit 2020-07-09T11:07:15Z phoe: you can't fork because your default repo limit is at 0; AFAIK that's an unfortunate implication of spambots having it really really hard on clnet's gitlab 2020-07-09T11:08:35Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-09T11:16:21Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-09T11:20:33Z i0_202365 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T11:22:54Z red-dot: Thanks. 2020-07-09T11:27:33Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-09T11:44:32Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-09T11:46:12Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-07-09T11:46:55Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-09T11:52:03Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T11:52:51Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-09T11:53:23Z Harag joined #lisp 2020-07-09T11:54:10Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-07-09T11:58:07Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-09T12:00:42Z frgo quit 2020-07-09T12:02:26Z seok quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T12:03:04Z polaris quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-09T12:04:10Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-09T12:06:04Z polaris joined #lisp 2020-07-09T12:06:30Z xrash joined #lisp 2020-07-09T12:08:42Z stepnem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-09T12:10:19Z seok joined #lisp 2020-07-09T12:10:25Z stepnem joined #lisp 2020-07-09T12:13:55Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-07-09T12:16:11Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2020-07-09T12:16:58Z seok: just noticed a fresh sbcl (room) returns this 2020-07-09T12:16:59Z seok: Dynamic space usage is: 80,281,232 bytes. 2020-07-09T12:17:15Z ebrasca: Do you know someting about syntax highlight for web pages? ( cl ) 2020-07-09T12:17:39Z seok: Does this means a blank sbcl compiled will be 80mb? 2020-07-09T12:17:46Z seok: Or just the functions used? 2020-07-09T12:18:45Z freshpassport quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-07-09T12:19:07Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-09T12:21:34Z _death: ebrasca: do you mean something like https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/blob/master/colorize.lisp ? 2020-07-09T12:22:52Z phoe: ebrasca: for sure Plaster uses something like that. 2020-07-09T12:23:14Z Guest_8 joined #lisp 2020-07-09T12:24:21Z phoe: if it's able to highlight stuff like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1944# then it must use something for that 2020-07-09T12:24:49Z ebrasca: I am thinking on having my on pastebin for cl. I am playing with weblocks. 2020-07-09T12:26:54Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-09T12:27:53Z gareppa joined #lisp 2020-07-09T12:28:41Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T12:29:01Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-09T12:30:36Z phoe: grab plaster and take it apart then 2020-07-09T12:30:44Z phoe: it should provide inspiration and such 2020-07-09T12:36:30Z ebrasca: thx _death , phoe 2020-07-09T12:39:12Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-09T12:39:59Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-07-09T12:40:54Z duuqnd: seok: When I run ROOM I get 43,205,072 bytes if dynamic space used 2020-07-09T12:41:03Z duuqnd: s/if/of 2020-07-09T12:41:09Z seok: Hm 2020-07-09T12:41:22Z seok: Is there a way to find the memory usage of an object? 2020-07-09T12:41:40Z seok: what's the sbcl version of ccl:object-direct-size 2020-07-09T12:41:41Z seok: ? 2020-07-09T12:42:20Z duuqnd: I don't know if there is one. I've looked in the past and found nothing 2020-07-09T12:42:30Z grewal quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-09T12:42:32Z seok: That's a shame 2020-07-09T12:42:34Z duuqnd: But I don't know for sure, it could exist 2020-07-09T12:42:40Z duuqnd: I just haven't seen it 2020-07-09T12:46:19Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-09T12:46:32Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-09T12:46:46Z duuqnd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T12:47:42Z phoe: maybe #sbcl might help you 2020-07-09T12:48:07Z duuqnd joined #lisp 2020-07-09T12:48:43Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T12:49:36Z yottabyte joined #lisp 2020-07-09T12:53:13Z liberliver quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T12:54:07Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-07-09T12:55:28Z Harag joined #lisp 2020-07-09T12:57:31Z polaris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T13:01:24Z beach quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2020-07-09T13:02:48Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-07-09T13:04:56Z beach joined #lisp 2020-07-09T13:10:26Z MidHotaru joined #lisp 2020-07-09T13:22:20Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-09T13:25:57Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T13:28:22Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-09T13:36:42Z terpri__ joined #lisp 2020-07-09T13:38:23Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-09T13:39:37Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-09T13:48:17Z liberliver quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T13:48:40Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-07-09T13:50:01Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-09T13:52:13Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-09T13:56:28Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-09T13:58:37Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-09T14:03:11Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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I just want (1.2) to be stored like the "(1.2)" string. and read it back then. I saw this in some lisp/scheme textbooks, but forgot. 2020-07-09T18:00:41Z duuqnd: PRINT works for simple stuff 2020-07-09T18:00:47Z aaaaaa: duuqnd: thanks 2020-07-09T18:01:08Z Bike: aaaaaa: specifically, use prin1 if you want lisp to be able to read it back. 2020-07-09T18:01:09Z shka_: print and read 2020-07-09T18:01:29Z aaaaaa: thanks 2020-07-09T18:01:30Z Bike: and bind *print-readably* to t 2020-07-09T18:01:30Z aaaaaa: ! 2020-07-09T18:02:51Z duuqnd: If you ever want to serialize CLOS objects I'd recommend the library cl-store 2020-07-09T18:04:34Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-09T18:07:24Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T18:15:15Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-07-09T18:16:52Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-09T18:24:13Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-09T18:25:28Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-09T18:33:54Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-09T18:34:41Z theseb joined #lisp 2020-07-09T18:35:48Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-09T18:52:53Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-09T18:59:45Z _paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T19:00:07Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-07-09T19:02:34Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-09T19:11:24Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-07-09T19:15:27Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-09T19:15:29Z Harag: is there any statistics available for projects in quicklisp, specifically how many downloads of it? 2020-07-09T19:18:10Z Harag: the newest ones I can find is http://blog.quicklisp.org/2018/02/download-stats-for-january-2018.html 2020-07-09T19:20:06Z fe[nl]ix: hey cracauer 2020-07-09T19:21:13Z Harag: Xach: is it a big job? 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defvar, defparameter, or let multiple times with the SAME variable/symbol? even in the same function? you'll just keep creating a new variable right? 2020-07-09T23:20:02Z Bike: you shouldn't be using defvar or defparameter in function bodies. 2020-07-09T23:20:22Z Bike: if you have a let inside another let, any names in the inner let will shadow those in the outer let. 2020-07-09T23:20:36Z Bike: which is to say there will be distinct bindings. 2020-07-09T23:22:14Z theseb: ok thanks 2020-07-09T23:23:11Z theseb: Bike: what motivated this question is that it seems you can get by with never mutating....just declaring new variables 2020-07-09T23:23:23Z theseb: Bike: and since functional is trendy maybe that is even fashionable 2020-07-09T23:23:43Z aaaaaa left #lisp 2020-07-09T23:23:51Z Bike: you don't need to mutate bindigns, sure. it's more like tail calls for control flow than nested bindings, though. 2020-07-09T23:39:23Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-09T23:44:01Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-09T23:44:06Z White_Flame: mutation is a way to pass information to another piece of code irrespective of flow control 2020-07-09T23:44:36Z White_Flame: if your information passage is always well-known, then parameters & local variables/bindings can do it all 2020-07-09T23:45:23Z White_Flame: (and return values) 2020-07-09T23:48:02Z |3b|: also note that DEFVAR won't change an existing variable, and DEFPARAMETER is effectively mutation when the variable already exists 2020-07-09T23:48:28Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-07-09T23:48:28Z |3b| wonders if defparameter inside the scope of a dynamic binding of that variable modifies that binding or the global value 2020-07-09T23:48:31Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T23:48:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-09T23:49:13Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-09T23:49:25Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-09T23:49:36Z |3b|: seems to be local binding, not what i had originally guessed :) 2020-07-09T23:51:15Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-07-09T23:52:27Z bsd4me quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T23:58:08Z efm joined #lisp 2020-07-09T23:58:45Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-10T00:01:32Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-07-10T00:04:44Z kmeow joined #lisp 2020-07-10T00:12:46Z seok joined #lisp 2020-07-10T00:13:05Z seok: Is it a bad idea to use (ql:quickload ) over setting depends-on in .asd file? 2020-07-10T00:14:00Z |3b|: probably, for anything beyond quick hacks 2020-07-10T00:14:08Z seok: why so? 2020-07-10T00:14:51Z |3b|: harder to introspect what it depends on, or build an image without quicklisp 2020-07-10T00:15:13Z |3b|: if other people want to use it, they might not have QL, or might not have a network connection 2020-07-10T00:15:31Z seok: hm 2020-07-10T00:15:32Z seok: ok 2020-07-10T00:15:42Z |3b|: possibly some oddness with ordering if other things want to depend on it 2020-07-10T00:15:50Z nikkal joined #lisp 2020-07-10T00:17:31Z |3b| frequently has a ql:quickload form in a comment or #- in new projects so i can manually evaluate it to easily load the dependencies before i get around to writing an .asd file though 2020-07-10T00:19:54Z White_Flame: |3b|: the defparameter would basically perform a setf if it already exists, so affecting the current binding makes sense 2020-07-10T00:20:01Z nikka joined #lisp 2020-07-10T00:20:30Z |3b|: yeah, either makes sense, i just guessed wrong :) 2020-07-10T00:21:14Z |3b|: if it did setf of symbol-value it would affect the global binding, setf of name directly would be local, i guessed global since i think of it in terms of global variables, but spec says name 2020-07-10T00:22:08Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-10T00:24:38Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T00:24:59Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-10T00:25:43Z seok: is there a way to read only last x lines of a file? 2020-07-10T00:26:27Z seok: I want to implement some sort of FILO from a file system 2020-07-10T00:28:24Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T00:33:25Z White_Flame: read-line, rolling buffer of x lines, loop until eof? 2020-07-10T00:34:01Z White_Flame: would be the easiest to do 2020-07-10T00:34:07Z seok: what is that? 2020-07-10T00:34:19Z seok: hm 2020-07-10T00:34:36Z seok: I'm trying to find a solution that does not become more expensive with bigger files 2020-07-10T00:35:00Z White_Flame: the biggest problem with trying to read backwards is the stupid CRLF that some files use 2020-07-10T00:35:04Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-10T00:35:13Z White_Flame: if you can guarantee a LF character, then you could scan backwards for X number of those 2020-07-10T00:35:32Z seok: I can write in separate files, but lisp puts 10 before 2 2020-07-10T00:35:53Z White_Flame: uh 2020-07-10T00:35:59Z White_Flame: that doesn't make sense. If you're sorting, then you tell it how to sort 2020-07-10T00:36:20Z White_Flame: if you're sorting strings, then it's up to you to do the zero padding or conversion to numbers 2020-07-10T00:36:44Z seok: well, uiop:directory-files to be precise 2020-07-10T00:36:45Z akoana left #lisp 2020-07-10T00:36:51Z seok: hm, I guess it might not matter 2020-07-10T00:37:02Z White_Flame: the filesystem also might be sorting it for some reason 2020-07-10T00:37:20Z White_Flame: but if you're not sorting it yourself, then you cannot rely on the ordering of files being consistent 2020-07-10T00:38:20Z seok: right 2020-07-10T00:40:19Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-10T00:40:58Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-10T00:41:30Z seok: What's the best library for storing simple lisp objects, no functions or clos, into files? 2020-07-10T00:44:03Z Xach: seok: cl-store is very easy to use. 2020-07-10T00:44:22Z seok: Thank you xach 2020-07-10T00:44:25Z Xach: seok: but simpler still is using write 2020-07-10T00:44:41Z seok: Can I store non-strings with just write? 2020-07-10T00:45:26Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-10T00:45:39Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-10T00:45:47Z seok: hm 2020-07-10T00:45:50Z White_Flame: hash tables don't have a readable form, but structures do 2020-07-10T00:46:22Z seok: is write/read more performant than cl-store? 2020-07-10T00:46:45Z Xach: seok: it depends on the objects. 2020-07-10T00:46:59Z Xach: seok: what objects did you have in mind specifically? 2020-07-10T00:47:35Z seok: just strings and numbers 2020-07-10T00:47:57Z Xach: write/read are likely to be faster than using cl-store in that case. 2020-07-10T00:48:05Z seok: I don't think read can read floats though? 2020-07-10T00:48:17Z Xach: seok: why do you think that? read reads all your source code. 2020-07-10T00:48:23Z seok: oh 2020-07-10T00:48:27Z seok: ok 2020-07-10T00:48:35Z nikka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-10T00:48:54Z seok: I just remembered there was something about floats that makes them difficult to parse 2020-07-10T00:49:07Z seok: You're right 2020-07-10T00:49:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-10T00:49:57Z White_Flame: printers of FP numbers have generated ascii representations that can be read back in bit-for-bit matching for decades now 2020-07-10T00:51:07Z |3b|: just make sure you include type in the ascii (1f0 or 1d0 instead of 1.0 etc) or READ with same default float format 2020-07-10T00:51:51Z seok: (write 1f0) gives 1.0 though 2020-07-10T00:51:55Z seok: :O 2020-07-10T00:52:01Z White_Flame: all depends on default-float-format 2020-07-10T00:52:10Z White_Flame: if that's the same between reading & writing, it's fine 2020-07-10T00:52:44Z White_Flame: *read-default-float-format* 2020-07-10T00:53:02Z gjulio__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-10T00:53:07Z seok: Ah found it 2020-07-10T00:53:09Z seok: thank you 2020-07-10T00:55:01Z |3b|: might also look at WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX when using write/read for data files, so you can try to have a consistent state more easily 2020-07-10T01:02:23Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-10T01:04:58Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T01:05:42Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T01:24:49Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-10T01:31:02Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-10T01:36:01Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-10T01:41:16Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-10T01:45:42Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T01:47:37Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-10T01:47:48Z gjulio__ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T01:57:00Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-10T02:02:10Z gjulio__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-10T02:06:45Z i0_202365 joined #lisp 2020-07-10T02:13:09Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-10T02:23:05Z gjulio__ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T02:24:02Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-10T02:26:56Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-10T02:30:35Z oxum joined #lisp 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ZZZzzz…) 2020-07-10T06:03:07Z Guest_5 joined #lisp 2020-07-10T06:04:01Z freshpassport joined #lisp 2020-07-10T06:06:39Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T06:09:08Z gjulio__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-10T06:13:55Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2020-07-10T06:15:16Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2020-07-10T06:20:59Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-10T06:21:35Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-10T06:37:44Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-07-10T06:46:46Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T06:47:15Z easye: If one applies CL:REVERSE to a vector specialized on a given type (unsigned-byte 32), is a conforming implementation allowed to return an unspecialized result? 2020-07-10T06:50:21Z easye: From , a conforming implementation has to have an "actual array element type" so I'm judging the answer to be yes. 2020-07-10T06:52:34Z phoe: AAET means "the type for which the array is actually specialized" 2020-07-10T06:53:36Z phoe: so, "For reverse, if sequence is a vector, the result is a fresh simple array of rank one that has the same actual array element type as sequence." 2020-07-10T06:54:10Z phoe: "For reverse, if sequence is a vector, the result is a fresh simple array of rank one that has the same type for which the array is actually specialized as the input sequence." 2020-07-10T06:54:24Z phoe: so I read it as: if you pass a specialized vector of ub32, then the result must also be a specialized vector of ub32 2020-07-10T07:01:48Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-10T07:04:15Z easye: phoe: yes, that is my reading as well. Thanks for confirming. 2020-07-10T07:04:25Z easye fixes more of the internals of the Bear. 2020-07-10T07:04:51Z easye: Sometimes I am surprised that ABCL can correctly do any numerics at all. 2020-07-10T07:04:59Z phoe: easye: actually I misread you 2020-07-10T07:05:19Z phoe: if your answer is "yes, the implementation is allowed to return an unspecialized result" then I guess I disagree 2020-07-10T07:05:31Z phoe: since you said you're judging the answer to be yes 2020-07-10T07:05:54Z easye: No, I agree that having CL:REVERSE return an unspecialized type for a specialized argument would be non-conforming. 2020-07-10T07:06:07Z phoe: OK then - I understand now 2020-07-10T07:06:15Z phoe evaluates more tea 2020-07-10T07:06:24Z easye smokes another. 2020-07-10T07:06:43Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-10T07:15:04Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-07-10T07:33:21Z bsd4me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-10T07:34:01Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-10T07:45:46Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-10T07:47:09Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-10T07:48:51Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-07-10T07:49:06Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T07:50:32Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-10T07:50:54Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-07-10T07:51:50Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-10T07:54:12Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-10T07:57:11Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-07-10T08:00:32Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-10T08:05:31Z duuqnd joined #lisp 2020-07-10T08:10:32Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-10T08:12:27Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-07-10T08:14:22Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-10T08:15:17Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-10T08:23:17Z MidHotaru joined #lisp 2020-07-10T08:36:03Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T08:36:16Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-10T08:36:18Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-10T08:37:45Z hdasch quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-10T08:39:02Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-10T08:40:46Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-10T08:57:50Z rgherdt_ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T08:58:25Z rgherdt_ quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-10T08:59:02Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-10T08:59:57Z Harag: is there way to limit a "method" to a funcion's scope? 2020-07-10T09:00:09Z phoe: what do you mean, a function's scope? 2020-07-10T09:00:19Z Harag: like you would use labels 2020-07-10T09:00:23Z Harag: for a function 2020-07-10T09:00:28Z phoe: don't think that's possible 2020-07-10T09:01:01Z Harag: ok is there a way to maybe swop out two methods and runtime and then swop them back with the mop? 2020-07-10T09:01:15Z phoe: sure, it is possible, but it does sound like a bit hassle 2020-07-10T09:01:25Z Harag: yes it 2020-07-10T09:01:27Z Harag: is 2020-07-10T09:01:45Z beach: Harag: Why don't you tell us what it is that you want to accomplish instead. 2020-07-10T09:01:51Z phoe: ^ 2020-07-10T09:01:52Z Harag: I want to temporarily clobber a print-object method 2020-07-10T09:02:08Z phoe: I think you can use a custom pprint-dispatch for tat 2020-07-10T09:02:10Z phoe: that* 2020-07-10T09:02:44Z Harag: yeah but I want to clobber it for readability not pretty print 2020-07-10T09:03:29Z beach: Heh, you need the "Incless" library that is not finished yet, but that would allow you to play tricks like that. 2020-07-10T09:03:52Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-10T09:04:28Z Harag: beach: so in theory how would Incless do it? 2020-07-10T09:06:34Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-10T09:11:31Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-10T09:11:46Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T09:12:37Z Harag: is incless taking over printing "control" using shadowing and then giving its own implementation? 2020-07-10T09:12:58Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-10T09:14:12Z freshpassport quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T09:16:38Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-10T09:19:04Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-10T09:19:42Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-10T09:20:04Z Guest_5 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2020-07-10T09:20:56Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-10T09:24:04Z beach: Harag: Incless is meant to be an implementation-independent printer. 2020-07-10T09:24:25Z beach: So the print-object methods trampoline to a generic function print-object-using-client. 2020-07-10T09:24:48Z beach: And the latter takes a CLIENT object in addition to the object and the stream. 2020-07-10T09:25:18Z beach: So you would put a method on print-object-using-client with a client that alters the printing as you want. 2020-07-10T09:25:49Z phoe: beach: is the default client dynamically rebindable? 2020-07-10T09:25:52Z beach: Then when you want the altered behavior, you bind INCLESS:*CLIENT* to the one that behaves like that. 2020-07-10T09:26:01Z phoe: like, (let ((incless:*default-client* (make-my-client))) (print-stuff)) 2020-07-10T09:26:02Z beach: Yes, exactly. 2020-07-10T09:26:03Z phoe: oh 2020-07-10T09:26:04Z phoe: yes 2020-07-10T09:27:02Z beach: I think we (collectively) are getting the hang of creating implementation-independent libraries. :) 2020-07-10T09:27:31Z beach: Eclector, Trucler, Cleavir, first-class global environments, ... 2020-07-10T09:31:15Z phoe: ha 2020-07-10T09:31:38Z phoe: you don't need to make a fancy name for first-class global environment because "class" already contains the "cl" substring that is required 2020-07-10T09:32:00Z beach: Too late. It will be called "Clostrum". 2020-07-10T09:32:08Z phoe: oh 2020-07-10T09:32:38Z beach: It's an alternative spelling of "claustrum" which means an enclosed space. 2020-07-10T09:32:58Z beach: As in "claustrophobia" etc. 2020-07-10T09:35:33Z flip214 is reminded of colostrum...... sorry about that 2020-07-10T09:43:30Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-07-10T09:44:19Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-07-10T09:48:52Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-07-10T09:49:53Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-10T09:54:37Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T09:56:01Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-10T09:56:28Z beach: flip214: "reminded"? I think you just did a Google search. 2020-07-10T10:04:03Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-07-10T10:10:01Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T10:10:58Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-07-10T10:12:39Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T10:15:13Z RedMallet quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-10T10:16:10Z RedMalle1 joined #lisp 2020-07-10T10:16:28Z RedMalle1 quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-10T10:17:28Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T10:19:33Z nitrosun joined #lisp 2020-07-10T10:19:52Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-10T10:20:31Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-10T10:26:13Z roze joined #lisp 2020-07-10T10:26:34Z roze quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-10T10:30:07Z flip214: beach: no. My wife is a nurse, and daughter is becoming one, so I'm hearing stuff like that a lot. 2020-07-10T10:31:31Z Harag: beach: i dont think Incless will work in ecl 2020-07-10T10:31:42Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-07-10T10:31:43Z beach: Why is that? 2020-07-10T10:31:47Z Harag: I can get the shadow approach to work in sbcl 2020-07-10T10:31:50Z Harag: but not in ecl 2020-07-10T10:32:14Z beach: Who said anything about shadow? 2020-07-10T10:32:15Z Harag: ecl just ignores your overriding functions and calls its own 2020-07-10T10:32:42Z jackdaniel: if there is a problem with dynamic bindings please report a bug. unless you mean, that ecl inlines some functions? 2020-07-10T10:32:48Z jackdaniel: then you need to declare them notinline 2020-07-10T10:32:56Z Harag: mmm ok 2020-07-10T10:33:30Z phoe: Harag: which functions are you trying to shadow? 2020-07-10T10:33:59Z Harag: print-object 2020-07-10T10:34:01Z phoe: if you are trying to FLET/LABELS/MACROLET any function or macro or special operator from the CL package, it's undefined behavior 2020-07-10T10:34:04Z phoe: well then 2020-07-10T10:34:07Z phoe: that's not allowed 2020-07-10T10:34:20Z Harag: not doing it in labels etc 2020-07-10T10:34:27Z phoe: oh? how do you do it then? 2020-07-10T10:35:00Z Harag: just testing how incless does it 2020-07-10T10:35:10Z Harag: trying to understand 2020-07-10T10:35:22Z phoe: AFAIK incless defines its own #'incless:print-object 2020-07-10T10:35:42Z phoe: it's up to the implementation to hook that into its own printing system 2020-07-10T10:36:18Z phoe: just like eclector defines its own #'eclector.reader:read 2020-07-10T10:39:29Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T10:42:58Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-10T10:43:04Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-07-10T10:48:34Z nitrosun quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-10T10:49:30Z duuqnd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T10:52:14Z duuqnd joined #lisp 2020-07-10T10:52:28Z markong joined #lisp 2020-07-10T10:54:45Z phoe: random note: today, I have removed the last TODO from my upcoming condition system book 2020-07-10T10:54:53Z beach: Great! 2020-07-10T10:55:07Z beach: The deadline was modified, no? 2020-07-10T10:55:12Z beach: Initially, it was very tight. 2020-07-10T10:55:14Z phoe: yes 2020-07-10T10:55:23Z phoe: it's been stretched a little bit, and I feel somewhat terrible for it 2020-07-10T10:55:38Z phoe: but it seems like after my editors have a go at the last bits of text I've introduced, it is ready to go into production 2020-07-10T10:55:54Z beach: Nah, don't worry about it. They must be used to it. 2020-07-10T10:56:08Z phoe: I secretly hope that they are used to it 2020-07-10T10:56:24Z phoe: ;; and I feel even more terrible for exhibiting such hope 2020-07-10T10:56:25Z beach: Wow, they actually have editors read the stuff? That is unusual these days. 2020-07-10T10:56:44Z phoe: beach: I actually got a very good one from Apress 2020-07-10T10:56:57Z beach: Excellent. Most publishing companies will print whatever you give them. 2020-07-10T10:57:31Z beach: And the average quality of published books is a proof of that. 2020-07-10T10:58:13Z phoe: I think that most of the heavy lifting has been done by the Lisp community though; digikar and gendl and heisig and adlai and splittist and SAL9000 and *way* *WAY* too many people to count here have done a #.most-positive-fixnum amount of work with beating my words into proper shape 2020-07-10T10:58:36Z beach: Nice! 2020-07-10T10:58:38Z SAL9000: thanks :-) 2020-07-10T10:58:53Z phoe: to the point where the editor from Apress didn't really have anything to do, save for restructuring the chapters in the way that is acceptable by Apress and noticing like two or three minor issues that weren't caught earlier 2020-07-10T10:58:59Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-07-10T10:59:08Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-10T10:59:09Z SAL9000: (I really should get around to putting a reviewer blurb thing into that issue before it's too late) 2020-07-10T10:59:13Z phoe: so, frankly, the book's been edited by the Lisp community 2020-07-10T10:59:35Z phoe: and that fact brings a big ole smile to my face 2020-07-10T10:59:36Z phoe: SAL9000: yes you should 2020-07-10T10:59:43Z beach: Yeah, that's great. 2020-07-10T11:00:40Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-10T11:02:46Z heisig: phoe: Congratulations on removing your last TODO! I am very excited about this book. 2020-07-10T11:03:12Z phoe: heisig: <3 2020-07-10T11:03:27Z heisig: I secretly hope that other language designers will read it and adapt their languages accordingly :) 2020-07-10T11:03:34Z phoe: like, literally, the Hall of Fame section of my book is so fat that I am grinning just looking at it 2020-07-10T11:03:40Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1949#1949 2020-07-10T11:04:11Z phoe: and I bet $5 I am going to burn in shame because I forgot to add someone there 2020-07-10T11:04:21Z phoe: there's been just too many contributors 2020-07-10T11:04:28Z phoe: and I really really love that fact 2020-07-10T11:04:47Z SAL9000: ...That is a lot of people! <3 2020-07-10T11:05:42Z phoe: a lot lot lot of people 2020-07-10T11:06:28Z SAL9000: so long as it isn't "alot" of people http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html 2020-07-10T11:07:19Z phoe: SAL9000: you made me open the book and nervously do a C-s alot 2020-07-10T11:07:39Z SAL9000: :-) 2020-07-10T11:07:54Z TMA: "alot 2020-07-10T11:08:57Z SAL9000: I assume CLCS is free from alot infestation? 2020-07-10T11:09:03Z phoe: yes 2020-07-10T11:09:09Z SAL9000 readies the heavy flamer and exterminator's suit just in case 2020-07-10T11:09:17Z TMA: " is a fine verb though. phoe, do not be concerned if you find it (in the verb position) 2020-07-10T11:09:25Z phoe: I expected that it wouldn't contain any, but sweet golly my heart rate just jumped 2020-07-10T11:09:41Z phoe: like, just in case 2020-07-10T11:09:58Z SAL9000: Always better to double-check. Sorry about panicking you that much 2020-07-10T11:11:40Z phoe: no, it was a good kind of panic 2020-07-10T11:13:35Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T11:15:23Z i0_202365 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T11:18:10Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-10T11:19:08Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-10T11:19:45Z beach: phoe: That is a very impressive list. You got comments even from Kent Pitman? 2020-07-10T11:23:49Z phoe: beach: *SOMEHOW*, I did. 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z shangul quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z Cymew quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z TMA quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z froggey quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z oldtopman quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z elderK quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z arbv quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z DGASAU quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z flazh quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z kbtr_ quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z Robdgreat quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z cdegroot quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z kingcons quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z mood quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:23:52Z wigust quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-10T11:24:00Z phoe: He's a busybusybusy person so it took a lot of work, but I got some, yes. 2020-07-10T11:24:17Z beach: Oh, you asked him? 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Thus, Incless can have its own symbols with the same names. This should work on all CL implementations. 2020-07-10T12:32:31Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-10T12:33:46Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-07-10T12:36:10Z lonjil: phoe: for implementations that want to use Incless, I believe that we are actually going to have a separate system and package that uses CL into Incless but without shadowing. 2020-07-10T12:37:30Z nikka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-07-10T12:37:42Z nikka joined #lisp 2020-07-10T12:39:00Z phoe: lonjil: oh! I see 2020-07-10T12:39:00Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T12:41:50Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-07-10T12:41:52Z nikka quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-10T12:42:04Z nikka joined #lisp 2020-07-10T12:46:21Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-10T12:48:25Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T12:48:26Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-10T12:48:44Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-07-10T12:51:08Z kmeow quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T12:51:12Z knuckles joined #lisp 2020-07-10T12:54:56Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T12:57:24Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2020-07-10T12:57:37Z bendersteed quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T12:58:48Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:10:19Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:15:31Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:19:56Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:22:16Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T13:22:25Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:22:25Z nikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:22:59Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:25:09Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:27:11Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:27:24Z Inoperable quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:27:25Z terrorjack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:27:40Z oleo__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:27:40Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:27:53Z drmeister_ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:28:15Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:28:53Z Mawile joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:29:03Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:29:18Z asedeno quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:30:04Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:30:17Z terpri__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:30:28Z chewbranca quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:30:28Z yottabyte quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:30:50Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:30:58Z Balooga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:30:58Z stux|RC quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:31:03Z kopiyka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T13:31:09Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:31:28Z kopiyka joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:31:33Z asedeno joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:31:35Z Balooga joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:31:41Z yottabyte joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:31:51Z chewbranca joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:32:06Z Archenoth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:32:06Z stux|RC-only quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:33:18Z In0perable joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:36:40Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:37:15Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:42:20Z roelj joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:44:27Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-10T13:44:42Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:45:51Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:47:28Z chrnybo: I usually work in latin-1, now I need unicode. Connecting to lispworks with slime, and (code-char 3459) gives expected result in the repl. 2020-07-10T13:47:52Z chrnybo: (write (code-char 3459)) on the other hand, fails with: 2020-07-10T13:48:30Z chrnybo: Error (TYPE-ERROR) during printing: # 2020-07-10T13:48:31Z chrnybo: 2020-07-10T13:48:54Z phoe: hah 2020-07-10T13:48:55Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:48:57Z chrnybo: Care to teach me how to resolve= 2020-07-10T13:49:05Z phoe: let me try to reproduce 2020-07-10T13:50:13Z phoe: (print (code-char 3459)) works for me in the listener for LispWorks 7.1.2 Personal 2020-07-10T13:50:18Z phoe: don't know about slime 2020-07-10T13:52:10Z chrnybo: In a plain terminal, starting lispworks console, I get #\U+0D83. Not so bad. 2020-07-10T13:52:53Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:52:53Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-10T13:52:53Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:52:54Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-10T13:54:27Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-10T13:54:47Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:55:29Z cosimone quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-10T13:57:17Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-10T13:57:41Z phoe: this looks like a slime error 2020-07-10T13:58:49Z Blukunfando quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T13:59:31Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-07-10T14:00:47Z phoe: something in slime seems to expect that the code-char 3459 is a base-char 2020-07-10T14:00:48Z phoe: and it's not 2020-07-10T14:00:52Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-10T14:01:19Z phoe: you could also try asking the lisp-hug mailgrou 2020-07-10T14:01:20Z phoe: p 2020-07-10T14:03:44Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-10T14:04:39Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-10T14:04:42Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-10T14:04:44Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-10T14:05:23Z prudentbot joined #lisp 2020-07-10T14:12:54Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2020-07-10T14:13:26Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T14:15:38Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-07-10T14:16:27Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-10T14:20:52Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-10T14:25:03Z chrnybo: phoe: thanks for the hint on base-char, I'll resort to utputting to a file that I open with additional keys :external-format '(:utf-8 :eol-style :lf) :element-type 'character 2020-07-10T14:25:44Z chrnybo: The resulting stream takes unicode characters. 2020-07-10T14:27:13Z phoe: good 2020-07-10T14:28:22Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T14:30:13Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-07-10T14:33:57Z OpenZen joined #lisp 2020-07-10T14:35:39Z nikka joined #lisp 2020-07-10T14:39:20Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-07-10T14:41:15Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-07-10T14:42:43Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-10T14:44:31Z justache quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T14:45:57Z justache joined #lisp 2020-07-10T14:52:29Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-10T14:52:52Z renzhi joined #lisp 2020-07-10T14:59:51Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-10T15:01:28Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-10T15:02:58Z lnostdal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T15:11:54Z rogersm quit 2020-07-10T15:26:28Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T15:27:15Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-07-10T15:28:52Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-10T15:32:45Z edgar-rft quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T15:34:02Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-07-10T15:36:06Z vaporatorius__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T15:37:15Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-10T15:37:15Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2020-07-10T15:37:15Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-10T15:37:15Z vaporatorius quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T15:37:48Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-10T15:41:36Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T15:41:56Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-10T15:44:40Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-10T15:49:35Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-10T15:53:15Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-10T15:53:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-10T15:53:56Z Christ0pher quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-10T15:54:55Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2020-07-10T15:55:11Z ark quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-10T15:56:45Z ark joined #lisp 2020-07-10T16:03:45Z tychoish: are there implementations that have reasonable cross-compiulation support/tooling, if I wanted to, say produce a darwin build on a linux system? 2020-07-10T16:05:41Z hdasch joined #lisp 2020-07-10T16:06:49Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-10T16:07:20Z gjulio__ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T16:07:51Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-10T16:08:39Z phoe: tychoish: it's an answer to an orthogonal question, but I use Travis to actually build my stuff for me on three OSes - see https://github.com/phoe-trash/furcadia-post-splitter/blob/master/.travis.yml 2020-07-10T16:17:09Z PuercoPop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T16:20:37Z adlai just fixed a chanl bug that has been pending for... nearly five years 2020-07-10T16:21:23Z adlai: it'd be awesome if anyone is able to confirm whether my fix works on their system as well 2020-07-10T16:25:06Z tychoish: adlai: nice! 2020-07-10T16:25:33Z tychoish: phoe: yeah, that's sort of the fall back solution, but I have an old laptop that I can hook up 2020-07-10T16:27:10Z adlai: if anyone wants to test: the official repository [in zkat's github account] still has the buggy code, and my version https://github.com/adlai/chanl/commit/a030296 has the fix 2020-07-10T16:30:19Z tychoish: adlai: I just used chanl for the first time last week, and really liked it (also hillariously zkat when to college with my partner, so its all very small world) 2020-07-10T16:30:27Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-07-10T16:30:55Z adlai: hilariously enough, zkat abandoned common lisp, and left me to maintain the projects >:( 2020-07-10T16:31:21Z tychoish: :( I'm glad you did though :) 2020-07-10T16:32:02Z adlai: jackdaniel: w.r.t. the :arguments bug, it appears to have already been reported 2020-07-10T16:32:35Z adlai ponders whether to attack the part of chanl that uses :arguments, or first see how difficult it'll be to get this working on ECL 2020-07-10T16:33:32Z adlai: this specific part of chanl is, as far as I can tell, not yet used anywhere else; it implements a method combination that builds a call to chanl's select macro, out of the applicable methods 2020-07-10T16:34:54Z Bike: you have a method combination that actually uses :arguments? 2020-07-10T16:36:05Z adlai: ehehe yes, it is defined and used in https://github.com/adlai/chanl/blob/master/src/actors.lisp 2020-07-10T16:36:10Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-10T16:36:21Z Bike: aw man, i might have to get that working then... 2020-07-10T16:37:17Z adlai: The code in that file is intentionally in a separate package, and it has not yet been documented, because the tests are quite rudimentary. 2020-07-10T16:39:06Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T16:40:52Z adlai: I've been using an earlier version of this in scalpl for a while. Maybe I should first update that to use the latest version. 2020-07-10T16:42:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-10T16:45:46Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-10T16:46:01Z efm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T16:53:47Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-10T16:55:39Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-10T16:56:56Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-10T16:59:21Z Bike: what's the "fix me! def mac r/o" 2020-07-10T16:59:35Z phoe: a cry for help 2020-07-10T17:00:19Z efm joined #lisp 2020-07-10T17:00:26Z adlai: the missing macro actually already exists, in closer2mop 2020-07-10T17:00:38Z Bike: yeah but what is it 2020-07-10T17:00:56Z Bike: like a macro to classify the methods without using the define-method-combination mechanism? 2020-07-10T17:01:16Z adlai: a macro that assembles the standard method according to qualifiers 2020-07-10T17:01:45Z Bike: i don't understand. what's the c2mop macro? 2020-07-10T17:01:47Z adlai: at this point, The Right Thing is probably to have a separate chanl/actors system, that depends on closer2mop 2020-07-10T17:02:38Z zigpaw quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T17:03:54Z adlai: hmm, no, it's in a different library: https://github.com/sellout/method-combination-utilities/blob/master/src/definition-helpers.lisp 2020-07-10T17:04:51Z Bike: and you'd be using wrap-primary-form, since you have send and recv as well? 2020-07-10T17:05:34Z adlai: correct 2020-07-10T17:06:33Z adlai: meanwhile, it appears that chanl has an unrelated bug, that happens only on SBCL 2020-07-10T17:07:57Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-10T17:08:05Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-10T17:09:13Z zigpaw joined #lisp 2020-07-10T17:11:20Z adlai: it is actually a little baffling that this test passes on CCL! 2020-07-10T17:12:25Z adlai: this should not be implementation-dependent behavior >_< 2020-07-10T17:14:05Z JohnTalent joined #lisp 2020-07-10T17:17:59Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T17:18:09Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T17:18:18Z bsd4me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-10T17:18:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-10T17:18:41Z adlai: ahh, wonderful, it is deterministic, just has an implementation-dependent failure probability 2020-07-10T17:20:08Z phoe: (defvar *failure-probability #+sbcl 0.1 #+ccl 0.3 #+ecl 0.02 #-(or sbcl ccl ecl) (error "Failures not supported.")) 2020-07-10T17:21:28Z adlai: itym #-(or sbcl ccl ecl) 1 2020-07-10T17:21:43Z adlai hands phoe a missing earmuff, too 2020-07-10T17:21:48Z phoe: thanks 2020-07-10T17:21:51Z phoe: adlai: no, it's not 1 2020-07-10T17:22:03Z phoe: it cannot be 1 because we do not support failures on this implementation 2020-07-10T17:22:08Z adlai: wonderful, adding a (sleep 0.5) before the failing test causes it to pass 100/100 times on both implementations 2020-07-10T17:22:13Z phoe: therefore we signal an error instead of returning a meaningful value 2020-07-10T17:22:25Z phoe: adlai: oh! it's the ugliest sort of errors then 2020-07-10T17:22:55Z adlai: I'm quite certain that this specific test should pass even without that sleep, though. It should not matter in this case which thread is started first, because they should synchronize. 2020-07-10T17:22:58Z jackdaniel: #+#.(random-elt '(ccl ecl sbcl))(error "surprise") 2020-07-10T17:23:05Z jackdaniel: adlai: thanks, I'll look into it 2020-07-10T17:23:21Z phoe: jackdaniel: risky 2020-07-10T17:23:27Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-07-10T17:23:39Z adlai: jackdaniel: I glanced at SBCL's code for the :arguments feature, and it is quite gnarly 2020-07-10T17:23:39Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T17:23:59Z jackdaniel: method combinations as specified are (suposedly) impossible to implement fully, i don't remember details 2020-07-10T17:24:17Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-07-10T17:24:40Z jackdaniel: afk 2020-07-10T17:24:41Z adlai: clhs 3.4.10 2020-07-10T17:24:41Z specbot: Define-method-combination Arguments Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dj.htm 2020-07-10T17:25:05Z adlai: the one and only place where 3.4.10 lambda lists can appear, is in the :arguments argument 2020-07-10T17:27:12Z adlai: well this is a nasty gotcha: &whole means slightly different things in d-m-c and defmacro lambda lists 2020-07-10T17:27:46Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-10T17:27:49Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T17:28:48Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-10T17:29:05Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-10T17:30:23Z Bike: you also can't just hand the list of arguments to a destructuring-bind or anything, it does different things depending on the generic function's lambda list 2020-07-10T17:33:17Z mbrumlow quit (Quit: %wubba lubba dub dub%) 2020-07-10T17:39:21Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-10T17:39:39Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-10T17:39:39Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2020-07-10T17:39:39Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-10T17:42:14Z orivej_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T17:42:18Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-10T17:51:47Z rgherdt 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asarch: One stupid question: what is a sequence? 2020-07-10T19:39:37Z asarch: (gtk:gtk-builder-connect-signals) needs a sequence as its second argument 2020-07-10T19:39:56Z duuqnd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T19:43:16Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T19:45:37Z adlai: minion: tell asarch about clhs 17.1 2020-07-10T19:45:38Z minion: asarch: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 2020-07-10T19:45:42Z adlai: clhs 17.1 2020-07-10T19:45:42Z specbot: Sequence Concepts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_a.htm 2020-07-10T19:46:06Z asarch: She is not happy today 2020-07-10T19:58:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-10T20:00:20Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-10T20:04:25Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-07-10T20:06:13Z gjulio__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-10T20:10:51Z brown121407 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T20:11:12Z asarch: (gtk-builder-connect-signals-auto builder #.(find-package '#:gtk-demo))? 2020-07-10T20:11:39Z theseb: SICP made an interesting point...I was wondering why i don't see the use of DSLs being more widespread......SICP said if you look more carefully....many programs in other languages can be interpreted as evaluators and/or DSLs.....So the whole world may not being doing DSLs in lisp but roughly speaking they *are* creating lots of DSLs in an ad hoc manner in all kinds of languages yes? 2020-07-10T20:12:03Z theseb: so this lisp idea actual did "win" 2020-07-10T20:12:43Z justache quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T20:13:06Z phoe: theseb: there's tons of ideas that originated in Lisp and then "won" 2020-07-10T20:13:20Z phoe: for instance, have you heard of the IF/THEN/ELSE statement? 2020-07-10T20:14:10Z justache joined #lisp 2020-07-10T20:14:29Z theseb: phoe: right...and garbage collection and lots of other stuff 2020-07-10T20:14:48Z phoe: all the way to symbolic macro systems that have made their way into Nim and Rust and wherever else 2020-07-10T20:14:49Z theseb: dynamic typing 2020-07-10T20:15:15Z phoe: What Made Lisp Different makes a decent list, if you can stand pg's proselytizing approach 2020-07-10T20:20:31Z markasoftware quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-07-10T20:20:31Z chrnybo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T20:20:47Z markasoftware joined #lisp 2020-07-10T20:20:47Z edgar-rft: my fingers are not fast enough for dynamic typing :-( 2020-07-10T20:20:57Z phoe: too dynamic for you? 2020-07-10T20:21:04Z phoe: try DECLARE TYPE 2020-07-10T20:21:38Z edgar-rft: I tried using a dynamo but it didn't work 2020-07-10T20:21:55Z theseb: phoe: how many developers will say...."doing DSLS sounds unwise and weird"...but then not realize every time they make a python/Rust/C/C++/Java program that processes structured inputs...they are themselves making all manner of "DSLs" 2020-07-10T20:22:12Z theseb: phoe: they don't realize what they're doing 2020-07-10T20:22:50Z phoe: theseb: I kind of don't think that approaching this issue from the position of superiority where Lispers know what they're doing and non-Lispers don't know what they're doing is going to achieve much 2020-07-10T20:23:11Z phoe: it might be beneficial to write some informative blogposts, or perhaps give a talk on the topic 2020-07-10T20:23:34Z C-16 joined #lisp 2020-07-10T20:23:39Z phoe: but starting the argument with "they don't know what they're doing" is IMO borderline delusional 2020-07-10T20:24:56Z phoe: it's true that the tools define what's possible with them, but I wouldn't treat all programmers who achieve amazing things with Rust/Python/Java++ as blind, nor I would disregard all the work that goes into perfecting their tools and knowledge 2020-07-10T20:27:47Z theseb: phoe: i didn't mean they weren't smart and didn't know stuff....i just meant they weren't *self-aware* of the fact they were doing DSLs as well 2020-07-10T20:29:16Z phoe: a DSL outside Lisp is very often called a "framework" 2020-07-10T20:29:24Z phoe: and a lot of these people are very aware that they are doing frameworks 2020-07-10T20:31:50Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-07-10T20:33:24Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-07-10T20:34:37Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-10T20:36:00Z theseb: phoe: ah yes...nice observation.....it is true i've heard about "frameworks" all my career 2020-07-10T20:36:09Z theseb: i can see how frameworks == DSLs..yes 2020-07-10T20:36:25Z theseb: see ...why did i need you to point that out? 2020-07-10T20:36:35Z phoe: a framework is a construction built atop the base language to ease some frequently used functionalities and make some other functionalities possible at all 2020-07-10T20:36:43Z phoe: while a DSL is a construction built atop the base language to ease some frequently used functionalities and make some other functionalities possible at all 2020-07-10T20:37:19Z phoe: it's just that the two terms are often used in culturally exclusive environments, so it is not trivial to make the parallel 2020-07-10T20:38:11Z theseb: yea 2020-07-10T20:39:59Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-10T20:45:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T20:46:45Z scymtym: a DSL built within/on top off a general purpose programming language is often called an internal DSL. this is in contrast to DSLs that are built with specialized tools such as language workbenches 2020-07-10T20:47:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-10T20:47:42Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-07-10T20:48:09Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-10T20:51:06Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-10T20:51:59Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-10T20:52:11Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-10T20:52:37Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-10T20:57:14Z userone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-10T20:59:11Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-10T21:01:10Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T21:02:44Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-07-10T21:09:06Z v3ga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-10T21:09:19Z jesse1010 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-10T21:14:38Z tychoish: adlai: I ran the chanl tests locally from your branch, a few RACING cases failed, but they also maybe failed on master, so I'm not sure :/ 2020-07-10T21:20:38Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T21:23:21Z rgherdt: b 2020-07-10T21:23:56Z rgherdt: oops, sorry, hit a key by mistake 2020-07-10T21:26:45Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-10T21:29:39Z adlai: tychoish: (format () "~{~^~A~}" (mapcar 'funcall '(lisp-implementation-type lisp-implementation-version machine-type machine-version))) 2020-07-10T21:30:32Z adlai: er, "~{~A~^ ~}" is the correct format string there 2020-07-10T21:31:50Z adlai: tychoish: thank you for the report, though. I'll take a closer look at the issues tomorrow... perhaps I'll write a test case that reports the exact state of the deadlock 2020-07-10T21:33:24Z tychoish: adlai "SBCL 2.0.3 X86-64 Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-7600U CPU @ 2.80GHz" 2020-07-10T21:35:00Z adlai: tychoish: forgive my ignorance, but just double-checking: how many cores is that ? 2020-07-10T21:35:26Z adlai got the racing tests passing in a dual-core machine, maybe that has more? 2020-07-10T21:37:31Z ahungry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-10T21:42:32Z Christ0pher quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-10T21:42:50Z tychoish: https://gist.github.com/tychoish/77e28c3696a276ef671a2eb0ee2b570f it's 4 logical cores, I think 2 real cores (it's a laptop 2017 lenovo x1 carbon running arch linux) 2020-07-10T21:42:51Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-10T21:47:44Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-10T21:50:06Z hdasch_ joined #lisp 2020-07-10T21:51:57Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-10T21:53:07Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-10T21:53:07Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-10T21:55:36Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-10T21:55:56Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-07-10T22:03:36Z hdasch_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3~bpo9+1 - 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I tried SBCL, CLISP, GCL and CCL. 2020-07-11T03:20:56Z damianyang joined #lisp 2020-07-11T03:30:46Z karswell_ is now known as karswell 2020-07-11T03:30:54Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-11T03:32:08Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-11T03:38:15Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-07-11T03:42:43Z beach: shangul: That is most likely due to the maintainers of the Common Lisp implementations spending less time on optimizing the code generation for ARM than the time they spent on x86. 2020-07-11T03:48:38Z Christ0pher quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-11T03:48:58Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-11T03:49:20Z ckonstanski quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-11T03:49:27Z shangul: beach, Good morning :) 2020-07-11T03:49:33Z shangul: beach, You might be right... 2020-07-11T03:51:19Z beach: The people working on C and C++ compilers have truly huge amounts of money and a huge number of people working on that stuff. 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2020-07-11T18:20:14Z userone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-11T18:21:06Z dlowe: The intersection of people who care about Common Lisp pretty printing and the people who want to do a complex, involved pretty-printing system in C++ is vanishingly small. 2020-07-11T18:21:41Z dlowe: Thank goodness SPICE lisp had money and people for a while 2020-07-11T18:23:33Z PuercoPop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-11T18:25:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-11T18:26:44Z tychoish: https://github.com/clasp-developers/clasp I feel like those folks are the right place to start, but I don't actually knowe about any more specifics 2020-07-11T18:27:01Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-11T18:27:19Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-11T18:29:28Z Bike: we haven't ported the lisp pretty printing system to C++, since if we want to pretty print from C++ we can just call the lisp functions. 2020-07-11T18:29:50Z Bike: also the lisp pretty printer is based pretty heavily on both special variables and runtime type discrimination, neither of which are all that C++ 2020-07-11T18:32:07Z tychoish: Bike are you a clasp human? 2020-07-11T18:32:19Z Bike: i am a developer on clasp. 2020-07-11T18:32:25Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-11T18:33:15Z edgar-rft: you "only" need to implement Common Lisp in C++ and you have pretty-printing for free :-) 2020-07-11T18:34:14Z tychoish: Nice! (sorry, I'm newish here so I don't really know people yet, and Ididn't mean to speak for you, just seemed like the right connections, seems like a cool project. :)) 2020-07-11T18:34:23Z Bike: no worries. 2020-07-11T18:40:38Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-07-11T18:40:53Z SAL9000: dlowe, Bike: long story short, $work involves maintaining a very complex system where I end up missing the CL pretty-print features. I was thinking that maybe someone had already done something similar that I could get inspiration from. 2020-07-11T18:41:23Z Bike: which features do you have in mind? because when i think of the pretty printer i think of things like indenting LET blocks correctly, which you're probably not worried about 2020-07-11T18:41:28Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-07-11T18:41:58Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-11T18:42:35Z SAL9000: To be clear, I'm thinking about the low-level pretty-print infrastructure which is driven by http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_ppr_fi.htm et. al. 2020-07-11T18:43:57Z Bike: oh, that stuff. well i can tell you clasp implements those in lisp, and we got it from ecl so there's probably nothing there either. 2020-07-11T18:44:20Z SAL9000: I have a whole lot of data structures, and almost all of them have a virtual char* toString() {} which I'd love to use those things in 2020-07-11T18:45:30Z SAL9000: any ideas on how to handle the contextual information (current column, etc.) in a sane way? 2020-07-11T18:46:07Z SAL9000: I know how to implement the actual pretty-printing itself, it's making it fit into the C++ model that is more troublesome :( 2020-07-11T18:58:06Z p_l would place bets how soon SAL9000 would use thread-local globals or just plain globals for a bunch of things but it would be sucker's bet 2020-07-11T18:58:46Z SAL9000: p_l: it's that or virtual char* toString2(PPrintEnv* env = null) {} 2020-07-11T18:59:10Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-11T18:59:26Z p_l: SAL9000: for reasons of "Python can't into scope" I have way too many "global " :| 2020-07-11T18:59:54Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-11T19:00:15Z _paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-11T19:00:17Z SAL9000: don't Python globals only need that if you have a local with the same name? 2020-07-11T19:00:37Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-07-11T19:02:06Z p_l: SAL9000: I found out empirically that I could not trust symbol resolution from inside a function/method 2020-07-11T19:02:07Z p_l: :| 2020-07-11T19:02:11Z SAL9000: :( 2020-07-11T19:02:31Z p_l: also dealing with lack of restarts 2020-07-11T19:02:49Z SAL9000: having helped phoe with CLCS I miss those in both C++ and Python even more now 2020-07-11T19:04:24Z p_l: I run so many functions inside loops now that have try/catch block inside in order to restart thing :| 2020-07-11T19:04:52Z SAL9000: maybe you can do some unholy tricks with nested functions and @decorators? 2020-07-11T19:07:38Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-11T19:10:29Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-07-11T19:11:01Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-11T19:18:59Z p_l: some stuff is handled by decorator from a library called "retry" :| 2020-07-11T19:19:34Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2020-07-11T19:31:46Z choegusung joined #lisp 2020-07-11T19:50:09Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2020-07-11T19:53:24Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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seconds) 2020-07-12T00:11:00Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T00:11:22Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T00:18:57Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-07-12T00:20:37Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-12T00:31:04Z markong quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-12T00:51:40Z sympt joined #lisp 2020-07-12T00:55:06Z rats joined #lisp 2020-07-12T00:58:25Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-12T00:58:54Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T01:01:18Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-12T01:03:39Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-12T01:07:00Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-12T01:08:00Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T01:08:02Z kc5tja joined #lisp 2020-07-12T01:08:29Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T01:09:40Z kc5tja: Hello; I'm a new-comer to Common Lisp (using SBCL). I'm attempting to make a macro which synthesizes a keyword symbol from two strings. For example, if I have two strings ABC and DEF, I'd like to create a keyword :ABCDEF. 2020-07-12T01:10:10Z kc5tja: Nothing I've tried so far seems to work (make-symbol...) (eval (format nil ":~A~A"...)) etc. 2020-07-12T01:10:13Z kc5tja: Any ideas? 2020-07-12T01:13:40Z anatrope joined #lisp 2020-07-12T01:13:42Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T01:14:17Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T01:15:53Z kleptoflora quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-12T01:22:40Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-12T01:23:02Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T01:24:28Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T01:28:09Z tychoish: kc5tja: I think you can do something weird interning (intern "thing" "KEYWORD") 2020-07-12T01:30:40Z nikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-12T01:31:08Z dlowe: no macro required, even 2020-07-12T01:31:45Z tychoish: true! 2020-07-12T01:32:28Z kc5tja: Ahh, sweet! I wasn't aware that intern took a package parameter. Just looked it up on the hyperspec. I think this will do the trick. Thanks!! 2020-07-12T01:36:23Z kc5tja: dlowe: Well, I was trying to minimize the scope of the problem I'm running into. The macro is to replace a (when) form intended to dispatch on keycode handling in a cl-sdl2 game I'm trying to write. And failing. hard. 2020-07-12T01:38:02Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-12T01:41:07Z dlowe: kc5tja: use macroexpand-1 to expand your new macro and then debug that code :) good luck. 2020-07-12T01:43:58Z kc5tja: I did that; it is textually the same. This is what baffles me. 2020-07-12T01:44:31Z tychoish: why are you trying to replace a when form? 2020-07-12T01:44:39Z kc5tja: I'm going to meditate on this over a sub sandwich. I'm positive it's going to be something really silly. 2020-07-12T01:44:42Z kc5tja: :) 2020-07-12T01:45:03Z kc5tja: There are going to be numerous when forms, all structurally similar. 2020-07-12T01:45:13Z kc5tja: I don't really *have* to, but I just think it cleans up the code. 2020-07-12T01:46:28Z tychoish: I'd use conds or switches? 2020-07-12T01:47:57Z kc5tja: tychoish: I think it'd still be highly repetitive. See https://github.com/sam-falvo/equilibrium-cl/blob/master/eql.lisp#L116-L124 2020-07-12T01:49:04Z kc5tja: brb; grabbing food. Thanks all for looking and helping. It is appreciated! 2020-07-12T01:51:10Z tychoish: I wouldn't try and refactor so soon/early in a process. also if key events are objects, I'd just write methods and the dispatcher handle the low level stuff 2020-07-12T01:51:37Z tychoish: disclaimer: I'm just a guy, and also something of a newb myself, there might be better idioms for this too. 2020-07-12T01:53:51Z White_Flame: kc5tja: "scancode-~a" vs "SCANCODE-~a" is likely your problem 2020-07-12T01:54:29Z White_Flame: (symbol-name :scancode-w) shows that the actual interned string has been uppercased, which is the reader's default behavior as it consumes your source code 2020-07-12T01:55:00Z White_Flame: manually interning a string does not change its case 2020-07-12T01:55:32Z White_Flame: tychoish: multiple keys could be pressed for diagonals, while a COND would only process the first one matched 2020-07-12T01:55:51Z tychoish: oh good call 2020-07-12T01:56:01Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-12T01:56:15Z White_Flame: ah, although this might be edge triggered and dealing with 1 key event at a time, so you might be right 2020-07-12T01:56:47Z tychoish: it sure looks like the cond/when thing would be equivalent in that regard 2020-07-12T01:57:15Z tychoish: I also haven't really done this kind of event-based thing ever 2020-07-12T02:03:37Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-12T02:04:54Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-12T02:07:35Z i0_202365 joined #lisp 2020-07-12T02:09:31Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-12T02:10:34Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T02:11:37Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-12T02:23:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-12T02:27:15Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-12T02:36:50Z gjulio__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T02:37:42Z kc5tja: White_Flame: Yes! That was the issue! Thank you for pointing that out. 2020-07-12T02:43:30Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-12T02:44:51Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T02:53:37Z rats quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-07-12T02:54:11Z john__ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T02:56:56Z ahungry quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T02:57:42Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T02:58:38Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-12T03:02:28Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-12T03:04:52Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-12T03:05:11Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-12T03:09:51Z kc5tja quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-12T03:19:46Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-07-12T03:24:47Z gjulio__ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T03:29:57Z chipolux quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-12T03:30:20Z MidHotaru joined #lisp 2020-07-12T03:34:02Z adlai: perfect timing, beach, I have just poured myself my first mug of coffee 2020-07-12T03:35:23Z beach: Good! I am working on one myself. 2020-07-12T03:36:25Z adlai wonders at the marvels of ASDF fasl translations, that have caused fresh bugs to appear upon reboot 2020-07-12T03:37:18Z adlai wonders why ASDF has no force-compile restart 2020-07-12T03:38:37Z adlai: e.g., in this case, I "fixed the bug" by doing a force-compile-system on the specific system in which the error was signalled, followed by a regular load-op on the initially loaded system, 2020-07-12T03:41:31Z nmg joined #lisp 2020-07-12T03:43:36Z White_Flame: I presonally use rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl*/home/white-flame/git 2020-07-12T03:43:52Z White_Flame: which keeps all the quicklisp fasls intact 2020-07-12T03:45:27Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-12T03:48:16Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-07-12T03:49:27Z adlai: the error message seemed to suggest that there was some fasl without an in-package form at its start; I was getting a failure to find a symbol, with a name from the internals of a dependency project, in the package that I had at the SLIME REPL 2020-07-12T03:50:34Z shangul: lispshell.surge.sh <- A free shell server with many CL implementations and related tools installed. 2020-07-12T03:52:04Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-12T03:53:03Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T03:53:14Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T03:54:26Z karayan joined #lisp 2020-07-12T03:54:54Z adlai is puzzled at how a static CDN can deliver shell access? 2020-07-12T03:55:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T03:56:13Z adlai: oh, that page is just the contact info for requesting shell access >_< 2020-07-12T03:57:10Z adlai: shangul: you are using that service for your experiments, instead of running CL locally? 2020-07-12T03:58:09Z adlai should probably not request an account, since he arguably is past the "wants to learn programming" stage, having reached the "regrets ever learning" stage 2020-07-12T04:00:03Z shangul: adlai, For experiments, unless I they are ARM specific, I use my laptop. But not always I have my laptop with myself. 2020-07-12T04:01:11Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-07-12T04:01:25Z shangul: Also this is for people other than myself. Installing SLIME in Windows is not easy and straightforward. Also users can try this before actually running Linux on their computer with other tools installed. 2020-07-12T04:02:44Z shangul: adlai, Another usage of my server is bypassing firewall blocks. I run sshd on port 443 instead of 22. So you can connect to it from anywhere(sometimes port 22 on some internet connections for example in hotels is blocked) 2020-07-12T04:03:20Z shangul: You can connect to my server and from there connect to anywhere you want. 2020-07-12T04:03:49Z adlai: minion: portacle? 2020-07-12T04:03:49Z minion: portacle: Portacle is a complete IDE for Common Lisp that you can take with you on a USB stick https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/ 2020-07-12T04:04:01Z shangul: hmm 2020-07-12T04:04:23Z nmg quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2020-07-12T04:05:07Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-12T04:05:12Z shangul: adlai, nice! 2020-07-12T04:05:21Z adlai: one last clarification question, and then if I have further questions, I'd rather discuss this issue in PM to unclutter the channel logs: 2020-07-12T04:05:24Z shangul: I am emailing this to my friend 2020-07-12T04:05:43Z shangul: adlai, feel free to PM me. 2020-07-12T04:05:45Z nmg joined #lisp 2020-07-12T04:05:52Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-12T04:06:18Z adlai: the "soft limits" that are outlined in that landing page include a total CPU time, is that per a certain denominator of wall clock time, or total total that you can ever use? 2020-07-12T04:06:36Z nmg left #lisp 2020-07-12T04:10:05Z adlai: thank you for the offer to PM 2020-07-12T04:10:58Z shangul: I am not sure but I think it is the time which you can use 100% of CPU. After you reach the limit, the CPU usage of your processes will reduce but they won't get stopped. Let me ask in ##linux to make sure. 2020-07-12T04:17:36Z nmg joined #lisp 2020-07-12T04:25:17Z nmg quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2020-07-12T04:25:18Z i0_202365 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T04:28:08Z nmg joined #lisp 2020-07-12T04:29:27Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-12T04:29:54Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-12T04:31:39Z adlai: aha, there is indeed no call to cl:in-package at the start of chanl's shim src/trivial-cas.lisp 2020-07-12T04:33:18Z adlai wonders what to do about this, since the shim is currently loaded ~before~ the package.lisp 2020-07-12T04:33:50Z emerald joined #lisp 2020-07-12T04:40:25Z emerald quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-12T04:41:08Z emerald joined #lisp 2020-07-12T04:43:07Z varbhat quit (Quit: varbhat) 2020-07-12T04:43:14Z akoana left #lisp 2020-07-12T04:44:29Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-12T04:44:45Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-07-12T04:44:48Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-12T04:47:57Z mrcom joined #lisp 2020-07-12T04:58:01Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-12T04:58:19Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-12T04:58:32Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T04:59:07Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T05:01:25Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-12T05:01:37Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-12T05:05:50Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-12T05:11:14Z emerald quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-12T05:13:22Z emerald joined #lisp 2020-07-12T05:13:52Z john__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T05:22:36Z nokdoot joined #lisp 2020-07-12T05:22:51Z nokdoot left #lisp 2020-07-12T05:28:59Z emerald quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-12T05:29:39Z PuercoPop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T05:39:37Z jeremiah joined #lisp 2020-07-12T05:40:05Z MidHotaru quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-12T05:41:37Z jeremiah left #lisp 2020-07-12T05:41:57Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-12T05:42:03Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2020-07-12T05:48:22Z marusich joined #lisp 2020-07-12T05:50:51Z gjulio__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-12T06:06:55Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-12T06:08:11Z kleptoflora joined #lisp 2020-07-12T06:10:46Z anatrope quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T06:25:19Z bsd4me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-12T06:27:28Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-07-12T06:28:54Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-12T06:29:56Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-07-12T06:31:55Z stoneglass joined #lisp 2020-07-12T06:32:27Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-12T06:33:36Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-12T06:42:47Z gjulio__ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T06:47:42Z gjulio_ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T06:50:36Z gjulio__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T06:53:09Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T07:06:52Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-12T07:07:52Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-12T07:08:26Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-12T07:15:13Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-12T07:15:13Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-12T07:15:13Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-12T07:19:48Z nikka joined #lisp 2020-07-12T07:20:16Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-12T07:37:44Z gjulio_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T07:39:12Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-12T07:39:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-12T07:40:43Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-07-12T07:44:07Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-07-12T07:48:26Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-12T08:00:29Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-12T08:02:43Z stoneglass quit (Quit: stoneglass) 2020-07-12T08:04:06Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T08:08:29Z shangul: Has anyone got a lisp related domain so that they can give me a subdomain? 2020-07-12T08:13:20Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T08:14:05Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T08:20:13Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T08:20:45Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-12T08:21:31Z z3t0: shangul: I don't have one. But just curious, what are you planning on using it for? 2020-07-12T08:21:48Z shangul: z3t0, lispshell.surge.sh 2020-07-12T08:25:00Z z3t0: Ah, that's a really amazing initiative! Thank you for doing it. 2020-07-12T08:35:04Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2020-07-12T08:48:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T08:50:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-12T08:51:42Z nikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-12T08:53:40Z karayan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T09:00:31Z nikka joined #lisp 2020-07-12T09:01:44Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-07-12T09:12:11Z izh_ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T09:12:38Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-12T09:19:02Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-12T09:30:22Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-12T09:39:44Z nikka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T09:40:38Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-12T09:42:23Z jackdaniel: is there a way to create a reference to the forward-referenced-class without calling (defclass foo (forward-class) ()) and accessing superclasses of foo? 2020-07-12T09:43:15Z jackdaniel: (it's not super important, I'm just curious) 2020-07-12T09:44:54Z beach: You should be able to use the underlying infrastructure. Like ensure-class, or make-instance in the worst case. 2020-07-12T09:46:17Z jackdaniel: ah, right, and that even works, thank you :) 2020-07-12T09:46:21Z jackdaniel: (defvar *xxx* (c2mop:ensure-class 'foo :metaclass 'c2mop:forward-referenced-class)) 2020-07-12T09:46:31Z beach: Anytime. :) 2020-07-12T09:46:32Z jackdaniel: (eq *xxx* (defclass foo () ())) ;-> T 2020-07-12T09:47:05Z jackdaniel: I didn't think about it because I thought that this would be non-conforming, but otoh why would it be 2020-07-12T09:47:20Z beach: Yeah, no reason. 2020-07-12T09:53:02Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-07-12T09:54:21Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-07-12T09:57:10Z Lycurgus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T10:07:18Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-12T10:08:14Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T10:10:21Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-12T10:29:25Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T10:31:25Z rats joined #lisp 2020-07-12T10:32:49Z nikka joined #lisp 2020-07-12T10:42:33Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T10:45:36Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T10:45:42Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-07-12T10:59:49Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T11:00:33Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-12T11:02:07Z terpri__ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T11:04:34Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T11:06:37Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-12T11:13:30Z Retropikzel joined #lisp 2020-07-12T11:16:14Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-12T11:29:23Z markong joined #lisp 2020-07-12T11:31:25Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-07-12T11:32:23Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2020-07-12T11:35:57Z nikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-12T11:38:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-12T11:38:14Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-07-12T11:39:23Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-12T11:39:44Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-12T11:49:33Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-12T11:49:58Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-07-12T11:50:10Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-12T11:51:18Z madage joined #lisp 2020-07-12T12:00:52Z ssd532 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-12T12:00:54Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T12:01:46Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T12:07:27Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-12T12:09:37Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-07-12T12:16:10Z TMA quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T12:20:26Z luna_is_here quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2020-07-12T12:21:40Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-12T12:21:54Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2020-07-12T12:31:37Z Xach: tychoish: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-07-12/failure-report/cl-grip.html 2020-07-12T12:34:00Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-12T12:36:17Z terpri__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T12:36:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-07-12T12:36:49Z terpri__ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T12:38:38Z Harag joined #lisp 2020-07-12T12:43:44Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-12T12:45:00Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-12T12:45:31Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T12:45:47Z terpri__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T12:46:11Z terpri__ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T12:46:17Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-12T12:52:18Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-12T13:02:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T13:07:50Z q3d joined #lisp 2020-07-12T13:12:34Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-12T13:13:46Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T13:15:12Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T13:18:09Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T13:18:17Z nikka joined #lisp 2020-07-12T13:19:21Z nikka quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-12T13:21:19Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-12T13:32:36Z abcdef joined #lisp 2020-07-12T13:32:49Z abcdef left #lisp 2020-07-12T13:33:19Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-07-12T13:34:25Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T13:36:49Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-07-12T13:39:50Z rats quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-07-12T13:54:20Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T13:57:34Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-12T13:58:43Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T14:03:29Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T14:04:41Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-07-12T14:06:00Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-12T14:06:08Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-12T14:07:12Z Retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-12T14:15:03Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-12T14:17:09Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-12T14:17:52Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-12T14:18:50Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T14:22:31Z roelj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T14:25:17Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2020-07-12T14:33:30Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-12T14:34:22Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-12T14:42:28Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T14:43:06Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T14:47:08Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-12T14:47:26Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-12T14:57:50Z efm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T14:59:10Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T14:59:41Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-12T15:00:08Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-12T15:00:15Z contrapunctus quit (K-Lined) 2020-07-12T15:00:15Z bhartrihari quit (K-Lined) 2020-07-12T15:00:29Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-12T15:01:15Z efm joined #lisp 2020-07-12T15:03:53Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-12T15:09:39Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-12T15:13:50Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-07-12T15:29:27Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-12T15:35:57Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-12T15:41:52Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-12T15:42:18Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver) 2020-07-12T15:42:54Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T15:45:17Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-12T15:45:17Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-12T15:45:17Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-12T15:47:00Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-12T15:54:26Z Xach: well 2020-07-12T15:54:50Z Xach: it turns out my builds were failing because i could not require sb-posix at .asd load time 2020-07-12T15:54:53Z Xach: fixed! 2020-07-12T15:55:41Z tychoish: \o/ 2020-07-12T16:00:36Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-07-12T16:03:09Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-07-12T16:03:49Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-12T16:10:25Z gjulio_ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T16:11:46Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-12T16:12:30Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T16:12:30Z bitmapper quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-12T16:12:58Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-07-12T16:14:29Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-12T16:16:22Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T16:17:43Z efm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-12T16:17:46Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T16:22:22Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-12T16:26:09Z efm joined #lisp 2020-07-12T16:37:52Z q3d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T16:41:31Z gjulio__ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T16:42:24Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-12T16:44:00Z gjulio_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T17:08:01Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-12T17:09:31Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-12T17:09:47Z lalilulelo joined #lisp 2020-07-12T17:10:22Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-07-12T17:15:05Z lalilulelo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-12T17:18:49Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-12T17:33:31Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-12T17:36:12Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-12T17:36:51Z gjulio joined #lisp 2020-07-12T17:37:37Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2020-07-12T17:38:12Z gjulio__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-12T17:41:39Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-07-12T17:45:08Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T17:45:40Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-07-12T17:49:04Z blandest joined #lisp 2020-07-12T17:53:13Z choegusung joined #lisp 2020-07-12T17:53:20Z choegusung quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-12T17:54:17Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-12T17:55:31Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-12T17:55:45Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-12T17:57:13Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-12T17:57:18Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T17:57:32Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-12T17:57:32Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-12T17:57:32Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-12T18:01:27Z Necktwi quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-12T18:10:38Z gjulio joined #lisp 2020-07-12T18:14:31Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-12T18:15:14Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T18:15:27Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-12T18:19:42Z blandest quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T18:22:54Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-12T18:24:07Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-12T18:40:51Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-12T18:46:10Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-12T18:46:54Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-12T18:48:44Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-07-12T18:48:54Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T18:50:22Z terpri__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T18:50:37Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2020-07-12T18:55:19Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-07-12T18:55:27Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-07-12T18:56:56Z JohnTalent joined #lisp 2020-07-12T18:57:22Z JohnTalent: Why isn't Lisp in the top 20 TIOBE? It's insanity. 2020-07-12T18:57:33Z bitmapper: it used to be 2020-07-12T18:57:36Z bitmapper: used to be #2 2020-07-12T18:57:50Z phoe: JohnTalent: USA DoD pulling out the plug 2020-07-12T19:00:38Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2020-07-12T19:03:02Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-12T19:03:48Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-12T19:08:50Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-07-12T19:13:11Z aeth: JohnTalent: In short, TIOBE is possibly one of the least reliable metrics of programming language popularity. Unfortunately, TIOBE persists through the years, and the slightly-better websites with brutal takedowns of TIOBE's methodology do not. 2020-07-12T19:13:50Z tychoish: the surprising thing is that it was 6 in 2000, I suspect. 2020-07-12T19:13:53Z aeth: It's essentially an impossible task, and whichever subset you use will bias you towards different things, like educational software, commercial software, new/trendy web software (Github popularity), etc. 2020-07-12T19:14:09Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-12T19:14:39Z aeth: On Github, JavaScript's the #1 language, in banks COBOL might still be the #1 language. How do you come up with something that reliably measures Github activity and bank activity? You don't. Especially banks. 2020-07-12T19:15:39Z tychoish: depends a lot on the bank. 2020-07-12T19:15:49Z aeth: Every field has its own language. Gamedev is a C++ monoculture, with a bit of Lua scripting sprinkled in. Microsoftland is full of C#, but nowhere else uses it. Machine learning is dominated by Python. There's no way to reliably measure cross-field use of programming language popularity, and do you even want to? 2020-07-12T19:16:47Z aeth: The languages you're forced to use for Android or iOS are probably pretty popular because of Android and iOS, but there's basically no reason to use them in environments where you get to choose. 2020-07-12T19:18:27Z aeth: In particular, TIOBE severely underestimates the popularity of JavaScript because it's mostly search-based, while sites that are e.g. Github based will probably overestimate it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19767961 2020-07-12T19:20:43Z aeth: IMO, the more useful metric of a language's popularity is the size of its library repositories -- in Common Lisp's case, Quicklisp. This will still hurt languages like COBOL or C# where commercial middleware is more of a thing and FOSS was adopted late, but if you're not willing to pay for commercial middleware, it's probably more useful to you the programmer. 2020-07-12T19:21:21Z aeth: It still won't quite work out *quite* right because JS culture prefers microlibraries like is-even. 2020-07-12T19:22:25Z aeth: (And some languages like Scheme require a few dozen libraries just to catch up with what CL ships with.) 2020-07-12T19:25:11Z red-dot joined #lisp 2020-07-12T19:27:06Z aeth: Btw, TIOBE contains entries both "Lisp" and "Common Lisp", and ranks Common Lisp substantially lower, which shows that it is completely clueless with respect to Lisp. There is no "Lisp", unless they want to suggest that LISP 1.5 is extremely more popular than Common Lisp. 2020-07-12T19:27:42Z aeth: s/both/for both/ 2020-07-12T19:27:57Z bitmapper: ahh 2020-07-12T19:28:01Z bitmapper: this debate again 2020-07-12T19:28:20Z bitmapper: anyway, TIOBE is based on search engine results 2020-07-12T19:28:25Z aeth: Which means that TIOBE's basically just noise since Google locked down their algorithms and API a decade ago. 2020-07-12T19:28:38Z aeth: Google no longer gives you an accurate indication of results, and can't, really, since it's so customized. 2020-07-12T19:30:58Z aeth: And I can search a quote from a webpage, verbatim, in quotes, that I know exists and is indexed, and sometimes won't get the result. Google doesn't care for low volume searches, and often gives either you nothing or a completely irrelevant thing it thinks you meant. 2020-07-12T19:31:11Z aeth: s/either you/you either/ 2020-07-12T19:32:12Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-07-12T19:32:47Z aeth: The most entertaining thing, though, is searching for an error message and getting the source code file containing the error message as the only result. 2020-07-12T19:38:14Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-07-12T19:38:39Z Josh_2: Hi all 2020-07-12T19:40:10Z phoe: heyy 2020-07-12T19:40:20Z Josh_2: Is there a way for me to define classes in a way that isn't at the top level? 2020-07-12T19:40:46Z Josh_2: the library jonathan requires classes in order to output json objects that aren't just arrays 2020-07-12T19:41:40Z Josh_2: the method %to-json is extended so I can output closs classes as JSON 2020-07-12T19:43:56Z rumbler31: you mean define classes at runtime? 2020-07-12T19:44:07Z rumbler31: or, later in compile time? 2020-07-12T19:44:18Z Josh_2: compile time I think 2020-07-12T19:47:54Z rumbler31: well I mean... when does it need to exist 2020-07-12T19:48:06Z rumbler31: do you have some example code you're trying to make work? 2020-07-12T19:50:20Z rumbler31: well so I mean, why do you need it not at the toplevel 2020-07-12T19:50:26Z rumbler31: what exactly do you mean by that 2020-07-12T19:50:42Z Josh_2: yes https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1952#1952 this almost works 2020-07-12T19:50:43Z rumbler31: are you needing to create new object definitions at runtime? 2020-07-12T19:50:44Z phoe: you can DEFCLASS anywhere you'd like, including IF branches and such 2020-07-12T19:51:30Z phoe: oooh, like that 2020-07-12T19:56:06Z Josh_2: eh 2020-07-12T19:56:19Z Josh_2: I don't think this is the best way to implement what I'm trying to do 2020-07-12T19:56:40Z Josh_2: I think I will just make a nice wrapper for defclass and defmethod and just write things out by hand oof 2020-07-12T19:57:04Z rumbler31: I've literally done this exact thing before, what do you think is wrong with it? 2020-07-12T19:58:04Z Josh_2: Well what I have done works for 1 level of class definitions 2020-07-12T19:58:30Z Josh_2: doesn't work with nested definitions 2020-07-12T19:58:38Z Josh_2: anyway I think I will try a different approach 2020-07-12T19:58:48Z Josh_2: Sorry for wasting y'alls time 2020-07-12T19:59:16Z rumbler31: wait, you mean that one member of a class is actually another class? 2020-07-12T20:00:07Z Josh_2: In the example *test* there is a list that looks like ("identifier" ("type" "m.id.user")("user" "cheeky-monkey")) this would be another class definition 2020-07-12T20:01:26Z Josh_2: so it would make another class associated with the name "identifier" with the two slots, and then the level above would have a slot definition like (identifier :type identifier :accessor identifier) if that makes sense 2020-07-12T20:02:04Z sympt_ joined #lisp 2020-07-12T20:02:50Z pve: Josh_2: could you have just one class for everything with a properties slots? 2020-07-12T20:02:53Z rumbler31: right, I've done that too... you just need to call your list to class definition again, and store the defclass call in a list that gets evaluated later, or in whichever order you need to do 2020-07-12T20:02:54Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-12T20:03:11Z Josh_2: rumbler31: well I could do it easy If I used eval 2020-07-12T20:03:13Z asarch: What can I do when I am evaluating a thread and something fails and it renders into the debug state of SBCL? 2020-07-12T20:03:17Z asarch: "#:" 2020-07-12T20:03:32Z rumbler31: don't need eval I don't think 2020-07-12T20:03:38Z asarch: If I press Ctrl+D in order to exit SBCL, it doesn't work 2020-07-12T20:03:59Z Josh_2: pve: I don't think I can do that because of the way the jonathan library creates JSON from instances of CLOS classes 2020-07-12T20:04:03Z sympt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-12T20:05:03Z rumbler31: a function that goes through slots to detect slots that have a type field, and then sends that slot to to your list to class definition call, storing the results, right? 2020-07-12T20:06:07Z Josh_2: oof I could just preprocess the list looking for nested classes and defining them first 2020-07-12T20:06:17Z rumbler31: finally reversing the list of class definitions so that they are defined before they're used (if that's even necessary) 2020-07-12T20:06:28Z rumbler31: yes 2020-07-12T20:06:39Z Josh_2: this wont' have any effect on runtime speed so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 2020-07-12T20:07:01Z Josh_2: okay I will try that 2020-07-12T20:07:12Z asarch: debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR in thread 2020-07-12T20:07:21Z asarch: #: 2020-07-12T20:07:36Z asarch: 1 is not a string designator. 2020-07-12T20:07:48Z rumbler31: I got around this by instead of defining subclasses I just used the slot names as a new in place struct, but I just ran an expansion function that took the initial list and detected a new subtype list, and returned the results of the recursive call 2020-07-12T20:07:50Z asarch: The current thread is not at the foreground, 2020-07-12T20:08:04Z asarch: SB-THREAD:RELEASE-FOREGROUND has to be called in # 2020-07-12T20:08:20Z asarch: for this thread to enter the debugger. 2020-07-12T20:08:28Z Josh_2: rumbler31: I think I will try something a long these lines 2020-07-12T20:08:48Z rumbler31: you might I guess want to be able to reuse subclasses in individual %to-json methods so that wont work for you 2020-07-12T20:08:50Z phoe: asarch: that's a type error 2020-07-12T20:09:02Z asarch: If I try to evaluate something, e.g. (sb-ext:exit), it simply doesn't work 2020-07-12T20:09:03Z phoe: go to that thread and check the backtrace to see where it blew up. 2020-07-12T20:09:09Z asarch: How? 2020-07-12T20:09:25Z Josh_2: I might just have to define some classes manually 2020-07-12T20:09:45Z phoe: asarch: are you using slime? 2020-07-12T20:09:57Z phoe: slime should install its own debugger hook so you get the backtrace in the slime debugger 2020-07-12T20:10:28Z asarch: No, SBCL directly from CLI: sbcl --load workspace.lisp 2020-07-12T20:11:29Z phoe: asarch: then do as you are told - call SB-THREAD:RELEASE-FOREGROUND from your main thread 2020-07-12T20:11:41Z phoe: once that's done, use the SBCL debugger to print the backtrace 2020-07-12T20:11:43Z phoe: and debug from there 2020-07-12T20:12:20Z asarch: (funcall SB-THREAD:RELEASE-FOREGROUND)? 2020-07-12T20:15:48Z phoe: (SB-THREAD:RELEASE-FOREGROUND) 2020-07-12T20:15:51Z phoe: in the main thread 2020-07-12T20:16:42Z asarch: Gotcha! 2020-07-12T20:16:44Z asarch: Thank you! 2020-07-12T20:17:06Z asarch: I usually type Ctrl+Z to "release" it :-P 2020-07-12T20:25:31Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-12T20:26:12Z brown121407 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-12T20:30:48Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-12T20:31:47Z asarch: My log is corrupted :'-( 2020-07-12T20:31:55Z asarch: How do you convert 1 into "1"? 2020-07-12T20:32:27Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-07-12T20:32:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-12T20:33:11Z madage joined #lisp 2020-07-12T20:35:37Z Xach: asarch: so many ways 2020-07-12T20:35:48Z asarch: Thank you! 2020-07-12T20:35:51Z Xach: asarch: princ-to-string, prin1-to-string, format are a few 2020-07-12T20:38:20Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-07-12T20:38:26Z asarch: I wonder why not just (string 1) 2020-07-12T20:38:56Z asarch: Anyway 2020-07-12T20:39:01Z phoe: because it doesn't work 2020-07-12T20:39:05Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-) 2020-07-12T20:39:15Z phoe: because #'CL:STRING accepts string designators, and a number isn't one 2020-07-12T20:39:31Z phoe: because who knows why 2020-07-12T20:40:13Z asarch: I know 2020-07-12T20:40:34Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-12T20:40:46Z asarch: It is just, most of OO languages have the String object for string operations 2020-07-12T20:41:04Z asarch: let name = new String(12312); 2020-07-12T20:41:27Z phoe: in Lisp, this isn't as simple as that 2020-07-12T20:41:54Z phoe: things often can be printed in multiple ways, readably/unreadably, numeric settings for float, yadda yadda formatting stuff 2020-07-12T20:42:03Z phoe: prin1-to-string and princ-to-string is what you usually want 2020-07-12T20:42:35Z phoe: also, there's no "String object" in Lisp, and Lisp strings aren't standard objects that you can MAKE-INSTANCE of 2020-07-12T20:49:34Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-07-12T20:50:07Z Bike: i don't think coercing things to strings has anything to do with object orientation. 2020-07-12T20:51:29Z phoe: ^ 2020-07-12T20:53:46Z Bike: doing it with numbers is nontrivial. there's selection of base, whether you want a separator, some localization concerns like what you use for a separator, bla bla bla 2020-07-12T20:54:14Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-12T20:55:02Z phoe: nah it's easy, you just do String number = new NumberStringBuilder(2).base(10).separator(',').decimalPlaces(4, 2, '0').build(); 2020-07-12T20:55:38Z Bike: in java it would be toString, except i don't think that works with ints since they're not objects 2020-07-12T20:55:51Z phoe: new Integer(2); 2020-07-12T20:56:01Z Bike: oh, you do Integer.toString(whatever) instead of whatever.toString() 2020-07-12T20:56:13Z phoe: everything is a java object if you believe hard enough 2020-07-12T20:59:59Z aeth: In CL, there's very little special treatment for strings because most of the time, they're just treated as arrays or sequences instead. 2020-07-12T21:00:07Z aeth: Some languages can have very elaborate special treatment there. 2020-07-12T21:01:07Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-12T21:01:25Z aeth: integer to string is pretty trivial most of the time 2020-07-12T21:01:35Z aeth: floating point to string is a nightmare 2020-07-12T21:02:35Z aeth: I usually use FORMAT to turn numbers into strings even in parts of code that otherwise stylistically don't use FORMAT. This, of course, assumes that the Lisp implementation correctly is handling the floating point issues. 2020-07-12T21:02:58Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-12T21:02:58Z asarch: movl %eax, "This is a test!" 2020-07-12T21:02:59Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-12T21:03:17Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-07-12T21:03:28Z Bike: that's not an actual runtime operation, your assembler just converts the string into bytes by whatever means. 2020-07-12T21:03:42Z Bike: i guess assemblers probably have to support unicode and stuff now? ech. 2020-07-12T21:04:17Z Bike: well, storing the address in the register might actually happen though. 2020-07-12T21:04:37Z phoe: movlcnvutf8utf16be %eax, "what the hell" 2020-07-12T21:05:09Z Bike: wasn't that the king of the north sea empire? 2020-07-12T21:05:53Z asarch: movl %ebx, "こんいちわ!" 2020-07-12T21:07:06Z asarch: brb! 2020-07-12T21:07:09Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-12T21:07:26Z efm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-13T01:51:14Z ferpb quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.0.91)) 2020-07-13T01:51:23Z z3t0: What are some good lisp oriented mailing lists to follow? 2020-07-13T01:54:06Z renzhi joined #lisp 2020-07-13T01:55:45Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-07-13T01:56:58Z elderK quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-13T01:58:12Z elderK joined #lisp 2020-07-13T02:00:49Z leo_song quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-13T02:03:07Z elderK quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-13T02:04:35Z elderK joined #lisp 2020-07-13T02:05:54Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-13T02:10:59Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-13T02:11:54Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-13T02:22:59Z vornth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-13T02:23:33Z Archenoth quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-13T02:25:26Z vornth joined #lisp 2020-07-13T02:28:32Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-13T02:30:13Z leo_song joined #lisp 2020-07-13T02:36:32Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-07-13T02:37:34Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-13T02:48:05Z asarch: How do you count from 1 to 5 quickly? 2020-07-13T02:50:35Z kinope: (loop for x from 1 to 5 do (format t "~a~%" x)) 2020-07-13T02:52:47Z kinope: (loop with count = 0 repeat 5 do (print (incf count))) 2020-07-13T02:52:59Z asarch: Yessss! 2020-07-13T02:53:03Z asarch: Thank you! 2020-07-13T02:53:49Z kinope: asarch: Welcome 2020-07-13T02:54:01Z asarch: :-) 2020-07-13T02:54:34Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-07-13T02:55:44Z kinope: morning :) 2020-07-13T02:57:02Z asarch: Guten Tag, herr beach. Wie geht es Ihnen? 2020-07-13T02:58:26Z beach: Fine as usual, thanks. I am trying to find a volunteer to extract and improve the code for first-class global environments into a separate library (named Clostrum). But everyone is very busy it seems. 2020-07-13T02:59:39Z Bit_MCP joined #lisp 2020-07-13T02:59:40Z beach: And I haven't heard whether someone suggested a presentation for the online Lisp meeting a week from now. If not, I should finish part 2 of my "Creating a Common Lisp implementation" presentation series. 2020-07-13T03:00:54Z Bit_MCP quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T03:03:42Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T03:15:04Z v3ga joined #lisp 2020-07-13T03:18:31Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-13T03:19:11Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-13T03:22:37Z dxtr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-13T03:27:12Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-13T03:27:58Z dxtr joined #lisp 2020-07-13T03:29:16Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-13T03:39:27Z z3t0: beach: is there somewhere I can find info about the meeting/presentation? Is it public? 2020-07-13T03:39:56Z beach: z3t0: It is public. Hold on. Let me see if I can find it. 2020-07-13T03:41:08Z beach: https://www.twitch.tv/TwitchPlaysCommonLisp 2020-07-13T03:42:21Z z3t0: thanks! 2020-07-13T03:42:25Z beach: Sure. 2020-07-13T03:42:56Z beach: Apparently, the presentations are available as recordings somewhere. 2020-07-13T03:44:37Z elderK quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-13T03:44:55Z elderK joined #lisp 2020-07-13T03:48:22Z Kabriel_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-13T03:48:43Z Kabriel joined #lisp 2020-07-13T04:16:41Z anatrope joined #lisp 2020-07-13T04:19:21Z kleptoflora quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-13T04:19:46Z vornth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-13T04:21:57Z gioyik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-13T04:23:52Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-07-13T04:24:46Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-07-13T04:27:05Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-13T04:29:06Z JohnTalent quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-13T04:31:41Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-13T04:34:15Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T04:36:46Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-13T04:45:34Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-13T04:46:37Z kleptoflora joined #lisp 2020-07-13T04:49:25Z anatrope quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-13T04:54:58Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-13T05:05:13Z MichaelRaskin quit (Quit: MichaelRaskin) 2020-07-13T05:08:25Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-07-13T05:16:26Z OpenZen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-13T05:17:12Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-13T05:19:47Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-13T05:26:53Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-13T05:34:07Z v3ga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-13T05:35:04Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-13T05:35:36Z TMA joined #lisp 2020-07-13T05:37:07Z v3ga joined #lisp 2020-07-13T05:40:45Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-07-13T05:41:36Z gioyik quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-13T05:47:36Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-13T05:48:09Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-13T05:49:31Z Archenoth joined #lisp 2020-07-13T05:52:01Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-13T05:52:11Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-07-13T05:53:04Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCymtXMj1M7cKiV9TKLoTtEg 2020-07-13T05:53:07Z phoe: here they are 2020-07-13T05:54:14Z beep joined #lisp 2020-07-13T05:55:19Z beach: Hey phoe. Any candidates for a week from now? 2020-07-13T05:57:05Z phoe: nope, but I have not been looking 2020-07-13T05:57:08Z phoe: I must look harder 2020-07-13T05:57:13Z phoe: I'll do that today 2020-07-13T05:57:46Z beach: OK. 2020-07-13T05:58:13Z beep quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T05:59:54Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-07-13T05:59:57Z beach: If not, I can do it. Part 2 is almost done. 2020-07-13T06:01:23Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-13T06:01:51Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-13T06:05:51Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-13T06:06:13Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-13T06:08:23Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T06:20:25Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-07-13T06:23:56Z stoneglass joined #lisp 2020-07-13T06:27:44Z jurov_ joined #lisp 2020-07-13T06:30:18Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-13T06:32:27Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-13T06:34:10Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-13T06:35:52Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-13T06:35:57Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-07-13T06:42:40Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-13T06:48:12Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-13T06:49:38Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T06:53:58Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-13T06:53:59Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-13T06:53:59Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-13T06:54:37Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-13T06:55:21Z nicktick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T06:59:13Z v3ga joined #lisp 2020-07-13T07:03:10Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-07-13T07:04:49Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T07:10:46Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-07-13T07:11:14Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2020-07-13T07:14:34Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-13T07:16:38Z polaris joined #lisp 2020-07-13T07:17:15Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-07-13T07:27:23Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2020-07-13T07:27:29Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2020-07-13T07:28:52Z dtman34 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T07:30:29Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-13T07:40:15Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-07-13T07:40:50Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T07:47:53Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-13T07:49:12Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-07-13T07:50:39Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-13T07:51:43Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T07:52:41Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-07-13T07:53:25Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-07-13T07:58:28Z leedleLoo joined #lisp 2020-07-13T08:01:47Z aindilis joined #lisp 2020-07-13T08:02:50Z leedleLoo: Is the and type-specifier supposed to short-circuit like the and macro? I'm getting a memory error using a deftype which expands to '(and simple-string (satisfies my-unsafe-simple-string-predicate)) 2020-07-13T08:06:15Z beach: No. 2020-07-13T08:07:12Z phoe: it isn't - it can be freely reordered 2020-07-13T08:07:18Z beach: Type specifiers can be canonicalized and simplified, so there is no such guarantee. 2020-07-13T08:07:20Z phoe: Lisp types are mathematical sets 2020-07-13T08:07:30Z phoe: in type specifier languages, (AND A B) === (AND B A) 2020-07-13T08:07:46Z phoe: and the implementation is allowed to freely leverage that fact to its advantage 2020-07-13T08:07:54Z phoe: s/languages/language/ 2020-07-13T08:10:36Z leedleLoo: Thanks, that makes sense when compared to mathematical sets. I guess I'll have to move the type handling into the predicate then 2020-07-13T08:11:17Z C-16 quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-13T08:12:28Z doublex quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-13T08:12:41Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T08:15:33Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-13T08:18:02Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2020-07-13T08:19:14Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-07-13T08:28:22Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-13T08:34:38Z aindilis joined #lisp 2020-07-13T08:36:02Z hdasch quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-13T08:36:02Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-13T08:37:22Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2020-07-13T08:38:24Z hdasch joined #lisp 2020-07-13T08:40:33Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-13T08:46:13Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-07-13T08:46:52Z jackdaniel: in clim first type in and (for presentation types) has special treatment by the function accept 2020-07-13T08:50:21Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2020-07-13T08:50:22Z phoe: jackdaniel: huh 2020-07-13T08:59:49Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-07-13T09:05:17Z markong joined #lisp 2020-07-13T09:05:23Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-13T09:19:34Z jackdaniel: phoe: also, you may treat class superclasses as a definition of type instersection, ala (and class-1 class-2 class-3) 2020-07-13T09:19:52Z jackdaniel: and similarily, the order matters when you compute the effective method 2020-07-13T09:20:38Z jackdaniel: (and a b c) could be interpreted as: it is all three, but first and foremost its a 2020-07-13T09:20:40Z jackdaniel: ;) 2020-07-13T09:20:50Z jackdaniel: s/its/it's/ 2020-07-13T09:22:30Z phoe: ooooh 2020-07-13T09:23:02Z phoe: yes, correct! I was talking about types not classes though, so a slightly simpler topic 2020-07-13T09:23:20Z jackdaniel: you've talked generally about types 2020-07-13T09:23:35Z phoe: the big difference is the order of direct superclasses matters, whereas the order of sub-type specifiers in AND doesn't 2020-07-13T09:23:41Z jackdaniel: classes define type hierarchy, presentation types even more 2020-07-13T09:24:18Z jackdaniel: s/even more/too/ 2020-07-13T09:27:20Z jackdaniel: for typep the order may not matter, however from the implementation perspective it is not unlikely that they are inspected from left to right and then it becomes debatable (i.e the type specifier satisfies may take longer to determine) 2020-07-13T09:29:02Z phoe: yes, but let's consider (and simple-string (satisfies foo)) 2020-07-13T09:29:23Z phoe: FOO must not assume that its argument is a simple-string because the implementation is free to reorder AND 2020-07-13T09:29:45Z jackdaniel: yes 2020-07-13T09:30:02Z phoe: it's a weird choice because of what you mentioned, SATISFIES is expensive 2020-07-13T09:30:02Z kopiyka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-13T09:30:06Z jackdaniel: I'm just picky about the s tatement, that "Lisp types are mathematical sets" 2020-07-13T09:30:06Z phoe: but nonetheless permitted 2020-07-13T09:30:16Z jackdaniel: statement* 2020-07-13T09:30:25Z kopiyka joined #lisp 2020-07-13T09:31:10Z phoe: "A type is a (possibly infinite) set of objects." 2020-07-13T09:31:11Z jackdaniel: it is quasi-similar to a statement, that the order of operations in (* foo bar qux) does not matter 2020-07-13T09:31:18Z phoe: uh, no 2020-07-13T09:31:23Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-13T09:31:28Z phoe: the rules of evaluation are well-specified 2020-07-13T09:31:39Z phoe: there's no such rule for type specifiers 2020-07-13T09:31:42Z jackdaniel: yes, but from "mathematical" sense the result will be always the same 2020-07-13T09:31:48Z jackdaniel: s/from/in/ 2020-07-13T09:32:12Z phoe: oh, yes, I see 2020-07-13T09:32:29Z jackdaniel: same for type predicates, from "mathematical" sense the order of clauses in AND is not relevant, however in computer languages it /probably/ is 2020-07-13T09:32:44Z jackdaniel: or, "it may be" 2020-07-13T09:32:51Z phoe: correct 2020-07-13T09:34:18Z phoe: it's just that there's no guarantee that, in complex type specifiers such as OR or AND, the SATISFIES sub-type-specifiers are checked last 2020-07-13T09:34:37Z phoe: which makes (and simple-string (satisfies foo)) somewhat counter-intuitive I guess 2020-07-13T09:34:42Z jackdaniel: sure 2020-07-13T09:35:01Z jackdaniel: as I've said, I was picking at the phrase "mathematical sets" 2020-07-13T09:35:15Z phoe: okay, picking accepted 2020-07-13T09:45:04Z leedleLoo: :) I was reading the phrase "mathematical sets" as: (and &rest type-specifiers) in a type-specifier is treated as the definition of a mathematical set of types by the implementation. Consequently, order is not guaranteed. On the other hand, (and &rest expressions) used outside of type-specifiers is treated as a regular expression/macro by the implementation so regular eval rules apply 2020-07-13T09:46:04Z phoe: actually there's no "regular eval rules" when macros come into play 2020-07-13T09:46:24Z phoe: and the AND macro is, well, a macro 2020-07-13T09:46:50Z phoe: standard evaluation rules apply to function calls, not to macro calls 2020-07-13T09:47:42Z leedleLoo: Good point. I guess it's better to say that AND in a type-specifier does not behave like AND the macro 2020-07-13T09:48:44Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-07-13T09:49:40Z phoe: yes 2020-07-13T09:49:52Z phoe: no short circuiting and no order guarantee 2020-07-13T09:58:41Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-07-13T10:01:04Z whiteline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-13T10:09:53Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-13T10:11:43Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-07-13T10:18:17Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T10:18:41Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-07-13T10:22:28Z rgherdt_ joined #lisp 2020-07-13T10:26:01Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-13T10:32:22Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-07-13T10:36:21Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-13T10:45:27Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-07-13T10:47:08Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-13T10:48:18Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-07-13T10:54:44Z libertyprime quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-13T10:56:14Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-13T10:56:15Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-07-13T10:58:27Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-13T10:58:42Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-13T11:00:09Z leedleLoo left #lisp 2020-07-13T11:01:29Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-13T11:08:48Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2020-07-13T11:09:12Z lottaquestions: How can I change the contents of a list in slime inspector? 2020-07-13T11:13:41Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-07-13T11:13:50Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-07-13T11:13:52Z ldb: hellp 2020-07-13T11:16:39Z libertyprime quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-13T11:18:00Z vegai: HELLO 2020-07-13T11:18:13Z phoe: lottaquestions: huh. I never tried, myself. 2020-07-13T11:18:22Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-07-13T11:19:52Z ldb: lottaquestions: try slime-inspector-operate-on-point 2020-07-13T11:21:33Z phoe: ldb: the issue is that "goes" into the value 2020-07-13T11:21:49Z phoe: so if I inspect the result of (cons 1 2) then I can inspect 1 or 2 2020-07-13T11:21:58Z phoe: but I don't seem to be able to modify the CAR or CDR 2020-07-13T11:22:56Z lottaquestions: so the list is a list of symbols 2020-07-13T11:22:57Z phoe: I think this can be worked around by using M-RET to perform slime-inspector-copy-down, then returning to the REPL, and then mutating the value of * 2020-07-13T11:23:34Z phoe: so (setf (car *) 'lsdvkhlsdg) 2020-07-13T11:23:54Z lottaquestions: let me try that 2020-07-13T11:23:58Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-13T11:24:14Z ldb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T11:24:28Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-07-13T11:25:16Z vornth joined #lisp 2020-07-13T11:26:11Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-13T11:28:14Z libertyprime quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-13T11:28:36Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-07-13T11:29:18Z ldb: phoe: seems slime requires contrib .el files to set value in inspector 2020-07-13T11:30:45Z vornth quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-07-13T11:32:13Z phoe: ldb: oh! I wasn't aware of these 2020-07-13T11:33:21Z vornth joined #lisp 2020-07-13T11:34:22Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-13T11:34:28Z lottaquestions: M-RET to perform slime-inspector-copy-down, then returning to the REPL, and then mutating the value of * has worked to change the contents of a list 2020-07-13T11:34:36Z phoe: <3 2020-07-13T11:36:08Z vornth quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-13T11:39:12Z vornth joined #lisp 2020-07-13T11:40:11Z anatrope joined #lisp 2020-07-13T11:40:33Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-13T11:41:11Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-13T11:42:54Z kleptoflora quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-13T11:47:50Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-13T11:54:55Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T11:55:39Z Posterdati: hi 2020-07-13T11:55:49Z phoe: heyyyy 2020-07-13T11:55:52Z Posterdati: again gsll is unusable on openbsd :( 2020-07-13T11:58:24Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-13T11:58:52Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-13T12:02:22Z ferpb joined #lisp 2020-07-13T12:14:17Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-13T12:15:37Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-13T12:16:38Z ferpb quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.0.91)) 2020-07-13T12:17:22Z brown121407 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T12:18:18Z ferpb joined #lisp 2020-07-13T12:20:42Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-13T12:22:53Z ferpb quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.0.91) 2020-07-13T12:25:39Z Posterdati: :openbsd is infact missing in *features* 2020-07-13T12:26:27Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-13T12:26:42Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-13T12:29:54Z phoe: Posterdati: which implementation is that? 2020-07-13T12:30:38Z Posterdati: phoe: which implementation is linux then? 2020-07-13T12:31:32Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: I think that he asks about the common lisp implementation you use 2020-07-13T12:31:38Z jackdaniel: not the bsd flavour 2020-07-13T12:31:49Z phoe: Posterdati: I meant the Common Lisp implementation 2020-07-13T12:32:12Z ldb: seems only CLisp, ECL, GCL could work 2020-07-13T12:32:20Z Posterdati: sbcl 2.0 on openbsd 6.7 amd64 2020-07-13T12:32:45Z Posterdati: phoe: seems that there's no :openbsd nor :bsd in *features* 2020-07-13T12:34:35Z Posterdati: phoe: correction,.(member :bsd *features* :test #'equalp) returns (:bsd ... :unix) 2020-07-13T12:34:48Z phoe: Posterdati: so :bsd is there 2020-07-13T12:34:51Z Posterdati: phoe: but no flavour in it 2020-07-13T12:35:08Z phoe: you might want to ask #sbcl to add :openbsd to features when SBCL is built there 2020-07-13T12:35:38Z ldb: or just push it yourself and save the heap image 2020-07-13T12:35:44Z Posterdati: phoe: due to this I cannot use egcc to compile libraries 2020-07-13T12:36:03Z phoe: Posterdati: or do what ldb mentioned for a hotfix 2020-07-13T12:36:29Z Posterdati: phoe: ok, but I have to change cffi and gsll again :) 2020-07-13T12:36:52Z phoe: Posterdati: no, why? 2020-07-13T12:37:08Z phoe: load SBCL up, push :openbsd to *features*, THEN load CFFI and GSLL 2020-07-13T12:37:27Z phoe: they should compile the code that depends on the :openbsd feature 2020-07-13T12:37:32Z Posterdati: phoe: there's no specific configuration for openbsd in cffi, it loads the wrong library version 2020-07-13T12:37:44Z phoe: ooh 2020-07-13T12:37:49Z phoe: then CFFI needs to get patched too 2020-07-13T12:37:56Z Posterdati: and gsll too 2020-07-13T12:38:04Z phoe: such is the life of people on less supported operating systems :( 2020-07-13T12:38:12Z phoe: or should I say, less popular ones 2020-07-13T12:38:16Z Posterdati: I have to do that for the nth time :) 2020-07-13T12:40:36Z ldb: CFFI could work with ECL on OpenBSD 2020-07-13T12:43:18Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-07-13T12:44:56Z marcoxa joined #lisp 2020-07-13T12:49:39Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-13T12:49:42Z marcoxa: Hello, I have a question regarding the Hyperspec entry for HANDLER-CASE. Is it just me, or the example expansion in terms of HANDLER-BIND contains one error? I.e., shouldn't the last line be 2020-07-13T12:49:59Z jackdaniel: spec handler-case 2020-07-13T12:50:03Z jackdaniel: clhs handler-case 2020-07-13T12:50:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_hand_1.htm 2020-07-13T12:50:54Z marcoxa: #4# (return-from #2# (let ((var2 #2#)) . body2)) ...))) 2020-07-13T12:51:58Z jackdaniel: there is no block named #2#, is there? 2020-07-13T12:52:00Z msk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-13T12:52:01Z Bike: no, the lambda is the no-error code. 2020-07-13T12:52:10Z jackdaniel: ah, you mean the last example 2020-07-13T12:52:25Z Bike: so it needs to be called if the form doesn't signal an error. 2020-07-13T12:52:26Z tfb_ is now known as tfb 2020-07-13T12:52:29Z marcoxa: @Bike not the :no-error case. 2020-07-13T12:53:07Z Bike: The other example? jackdaniel is right, there's no block named #2# 2020-07-13T12:53:30Z marcoxa: The first case. I think me and @jackdaniel agree. 2020-07-13T12:53:44Z Bike: If you agree than it shouldn't be (return-from #2# ...) 2020-07-13T12:54:06Z jurov_ is now known as jurov 2020-07-13T12:54:13Z phoe: it cannot be return-from #2# because this won't compile 2020-07-13T12:54:21Z phoe: all of these cases must return-from #1# 2020-07-13T12:54:22Z marcoxa: IMHO it *should* be (return-from #2# ...) 2020-07-13T12:54:34Z jackdaniel: marcoxa: but #2# is not a block name 2020-07-13T12:54:36Z Bike: then you don't agree with jackdaniel. 2020-07-13T12:54:38Z jackdaniel: so where from it would return? 2020-07-13T12:54:41Z phoe: marcoxa: try compiling that code 2020-07-13T12:54:47Z Bike: why would it be return-from #2#? there's no block called #2#. 2020-07-13T12:55:50Z jackdaniel: #1 is the handler-case's block to return from, #2 is a temporary result. I'm slightly concerned about the first lambda though 2020-07-13T12:55:58Z jackdaniel: because it should be (setq #2# temp) I think 2020-07-13T12:56:09Z marcoxa: Because of the SETQs in the handlers. Now that you mentioned it, it does mess things up. But the SETQs seem erroneous 2020-07-13T12:56:21Z jackdaniel: ditto 2020-07-13T12:56:24Z Bike: yeah, (setq #1# ...) is probably wrong 2020-07-13T12:56:31Z phoe: now that one is wrong, yes 2020-07-13T12:56:36Z phoe: #1# is not a variable 2020-07-13T12:56:57Z phoe: #2# should be set, since it is used to transfer data from the handler function to the handler case 2020-07-13T12:57:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-07-13T12:57:12Z jackdaniel: I'm sure I've said ^ a few lines above 2020-07-13T12:57:14Z marcoxa: Ok. Yeah. This looks better. (setq #2# temp) should be in the first handler. 2020-07-13T12:57:18Z phoe: so https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1954#1954 2020-07-13T12:58:13Z Bike: someone should maybe throw it on https://www.cliki.net/ANSI%20Clarifications%20and%20Errata then 2020-07-13T12:58:21Z marcoxa: Yep @phoe 2020-07-13T12:58:27Z phoe: Bike: I will 2020-07-13T12:58:30Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes, sorry 2020-07-13T12:59:15Z puchacz joined #lisp 2020-07-13T12:59:29Z puchacz: hi, has anybody used a css parser library? I would like to parse css, possibly modify something in the parse tree and serialise it back. 2020-07-13T12:59:39Z jackdaniel: marcoxa: could you check the query window? I've left you a private message 2020-07-13T12:59:40Z efm_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-07-13T12:59:48Z phoe: puchacz: I think Shinmera might have something like that 2020-07-13T12:59:59Z puchacz: phoe: clss? 2020-07-13T13:00:54Z puchacz: I am not sure you can serialise it back into a string 2020-07-13T13:04:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:05:08Z libertyprime quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-13T13:05:44Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:06:45Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:07:48Z Posterdati: phoe: no way to make it work... 2020-07-13T13:08:16Z phoe: Posterdati: sorry, can't help you any further 2020-07-13T13:13:25Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-13T13:14:00Z ldb: Posterdati: have you had luck with ECL? 2020-07-13T13:15:22Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-13T13:18:59Z luna_is_here_ joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:25:52Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T13:26:02Z ldb: it's interesting to see that in the book A Programming Language, ``metaprogramming'' actually is parsing and evaling terms 2020-07-13T13:26:21Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:26:39Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-13T13:27:43Z rumbler31 quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:43Z hdasch quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:43Z aindilis quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:43Z shka_ quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:43Z gravicappa quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:43Z _jrjsmrtn quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:43Z Blukunfando quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:43Z penguwin quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:44Z gigetoo quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:44Z froggey quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:44Z oldtopman quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:44Z arbv quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:44Z DGASAU quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:44Z flazh quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:44Z kbtr_ quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:44Z Robdgreat quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:44Z cdegroot quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:44Z kingcons quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:44Z mood quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:27:44Z wigust quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z hdasch joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z aindilis joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z penguwin joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z froggey joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z oldtopman joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z Robdgreat joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z kingcons joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z kbtr_ joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z cdegroot joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z mood joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:28:07Z wigust joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:29:24Z phoe: lisp stuff must be metametaprogramming then 2020-07-13T13:35:46Z Posterdati: ldb: not using ecl on openbsd 2020-07-13T13:37:04Z yonkunas_ joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:39:13Z libertyprime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-13T13:39:23Z yonkunas_ quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-13T13:40:17Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:43:29Z puchacz: hmmm, I am finding lquery rather difficult to understand.... 2020-07-13T13:44:56Z puchacz: macros, macros everywhere 2020-07-13T13:46:52Z phoe: beach: please submit your talk. I'll have two talks this time, the other from the Guile Scheme world. 2020-07-13T13:47:05Z phoe: (If it's not a big problem for you, that is!) 2020-07-13T13:49:28Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-13T13:51:12Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:53:19Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-13T13:54:12Z beach: phoe: OK, will do. 2020-07-13T13:54:24Z phoe: beach: thanks! 2020-07-13T13:54:54Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-13T13:58:20Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-13T14:03:14Z polaris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T14:05:10Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-13T14:09:35Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-13T14:16:00Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-07-13T14:17:23Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-13T14:19:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-07-13T14:20:05Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2020-07-13T14:20:48Z ldb quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2020-07-13T14:21:15Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-07-13T14:22:09Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2020-07-13T14:22:17Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-13T14:22:29Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-13T14:22:38Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-13T14:25:18Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-13T14:25:34Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-13T14:26:01Z ferpb joined #lisp 2020-07-13T14:28:19Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2020-07-13T14:30:30Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-13T14:30:35Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-13T14:31:30Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-07-13T14:34:21Z drmeister_ is now known as drmeister 2020-07-13T14:35:01Z doublex joined #lisp 2020-07-13T14:44:07Z Posterdati: phoe: fixes 2020-07-13T14:44:09Z Posterdati: phoe: fixed! 2020-07-13T14:44:36Z Posterdati: phoe: but is still uses clang to compile and not the $CC contents 2020-07-13T14:46:59Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-13T14:51:27Z Retropikzel joined #lisp 2020-07-13T14:58:30Z kinope quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-13T15:00:17Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-13T15:00:35Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-13T15:03:35Z rgherdt_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-13T15:05:26Z marcoxa: @Posterdati R U italian? As if it were antani? :) 2020-07-13T15:08:58Z beach: marcoxa: The @ convention is not used on IRC. Just type the nick followed by a colon. Your IRC client should complete for you. 2020-07-13T15:08:58Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-07-13T15:11:49Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T15:13:57Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-13T15:20:30Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-07-13T15:21:13Z libertyprime quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-13T15:24:38Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-13T15:27:52Z ferpb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T15:29:11Z dlowe: beach: that's complicated by the popularity of bridges now 2020-07-13T15:29:22Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-07-13T15:29:58Z beach: Oh, another thing I am completely ignorant of. :( 2020-07-13T15:31:00Z christophergray joined #lisp 2020-07-13T15:33:37Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-13T15:34:06Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-07-13T15:34:53Z dyelar joined #lisp 2020-07-13T15:37:13Z luna_is_here_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-13T15:37:40Z luna_is_here_ joined #lisp 2020-07-13T15:43:10Z cnmne joined #lisp 2020-07-13T15:43:21Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-07-13T15:46:38Z cnmne: hi, I'm trying to understand an elisp package. In `(declare-function some-func "ext:other-func" ())`, what's the purpose of the ":ext" prefix ? 2020-07-13T15:47:19Z phoe: #emacs might help you more 2020-07-13T15:47:19Z beach: cnmne: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so you may have to ask in #emacs. 2020-07-13T15:47:48Z cnmne: oh sorry, thanks 2020-07-13T15:48:50Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-13T15:48:53Z cnmne left #lisp 2020-07-13T15:51:30Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-13T15:53:03Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-13T16:05:58Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-13T16:08:26Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-13T16:09:57Z Retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-13T16:10:06Z luna-is-here joined #lisp 2020-07-13T16:14:46Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-13T16:23:12Z zigpaw quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2020-07-13T16:23:29Z zigpaw joined #lisp 2020-07-13T16:29:32Z snits quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-13T16:30:01Z snits joined #lisp 2020-07-13T16:33:41Z Posterdati: marcoxa: by two 2020-07-13T16:34:11Z Posterdati: marcoxa: like it was antani 2020-07-13T16:37:17Z tristero joined #lisp 2020-07-13T16:46:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-13T16:51:31Z Retropikzel joined #lisp 2020-07-13T16:53:39Z rikudocat joined #lisp 2020-07-13T16:55:42Z rikudocat: I will add some fresh to the discussion here 2020-07-13T16:56:32Z rikudocat: If you don’t want to see any foreign objects, please respond 2020-07-13T16:56:46Z phoe: rikudocat: huh 2020-07-13T16:57:28Z rikudocat: o, my English is not good, can not understand the abbreviation 2020-07-13T16:57:48Z phoe: which abbreviation? 2020-07-13T16:57:53Z phoe: "huh" means that I did not understand you 2020-07-13T16:58:27Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-07-13T16:58:34Z rikudocat: I get it now 2020-07-13T16:58:58Z rikudocat: I'm going to show a thing that all software engineers love. 2020-07-13T16:59:03Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-13T16:59:58Z rikudocat: If there is no objection, I will send a link to my project later 2020-07-13T17:00:11Z phoe: what is the project? 2020-07-13T17:00:37Z rikudocat: https://bit.ly/2Zf4zMQ 2020-07-13T17:01:13Z phoe: ummmmm, is this related to Lisp though? 2020-07-13T17:01:29Z rikudocat: Forgive me for using a short URL, no trap to open it with confidence 2020-07-13T17:01:31Z Bike: this url looks pretty shady. 2020-07-13T17:02:13Z phoe: just clicked it, it's an IPFS page. keyboard layouts don't seem on-topic though 2020-07-13T17:02:26Z rikudocat: Don't be too serious, always talk about one thing, time will pass quickly 2020-07-13T17:02:39Z phoe: (especially non-space-cadet ones :D) 2020-07-13T17:05:27Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-13T17:05:27Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-13T17:05:27Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-13T17:07:23Z madage joined #lisp 2020-07-13T17:09:26Z rikudocat: I hope that lisp programmers who are interested in the project will join my project 2020-07-13T17:10:45Z choegusung joined #lisp 2020-07-13T17:13:56Z jlarocco quit (Ping 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I'd like to run some thoughts by ya. 2020-07-13T23:33:24Z hdasch quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3~bpo9+1 - https://znc.in) 2020-07-13T23:33:46Z hdasch joined #lisp 2020-07-13T23:33:49Z malm quit (Killed (kornbluth.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2020-07-13T23:33:51Z malm joined #lisp 2020-07-13T23:48:06Z ferpb joined #lisp 2020-07-13T23:50:43Z z3t0: I was wondering if there are lisps out there suited to real-time programming or tasks that require predictable performance? I think mainly this would require an implementation without a garbage collector? I'm no expert so please correct me if I said something stupid. My use case is writing a real time video processing application 2020-07-13T23:51:07Z z3t0: I did read somewhere that the gc can also be tuned, is that a good approach? 2020-07-13T23:54:20Z jurov joined #lisp 2020-07-13T23:55:47Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T00:00:12Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-07-14T00:02:34Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-14T00:06:38Z kleptoflora joined #lisp 2020-07-14T00:08:55Z anatrope quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-14T00:14:38Z gjulio_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T00:16:13Z jasom: z3t0: what is the maximum latency you can tolerate? 2020-07-14T00:17:53Z jasom: I'm not aware of any common-lisp implementation that can keep GC pauses under, say, 100ms reliably. However, if you don't allocate in your latency-sensitive sections, then GC pauses don't matter 2020-07-14T00:18:35Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-14T00:19:19Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-14T00:19:54Z jasom: z3t0: that being said, there is nothing that makes it impossible to build a lisp with very short GC pauses, it's just that optimizing for short pauses isn't something anyone has done. 2020-07-14T00:20:36Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-07-14T00:20:39Z z3t0: jasom: it hasn't been defined yet. I think mroe than maximum latency, we are aiming for predictable latency 2020-07-14T00:25:13Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-07-14T00:27:11Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-14T00:29:37Z elderK quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-14T00:30:16Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: ABCL has two short-pause GCs by virtue of the JVM 2020-07-14T00:31:28Z elderK joined #lisp 2020-07-14T00:36:58Z vornth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T00:53:11Z anatrope joined #lisp 2020-07-14T00:55:43Z kleptoflora quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-14T01:05:26Z satousan joined #lisp 2020-07-14T01:09:47Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-14T01:14:01Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-14T01:14:11Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-14T01:14:44Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-14T01:18:02Z White_Flame: Oladon: y0 2020-07-14T01:19:23Z White_Flame: z3t0: reducing GC latency also slows down main-line code, so that would increase your responsiveness of your code regardless of added GC latency 2020-07-14T01:19:41Z White_Flame: *reduce the responsiveness 2020-07-14T01:20:03Z White_Flame: of course, that comes in to play when the workload per event is fairly high 2020-07-14T01:20:34Z White_Flame: and some percentage increase in runtime cost would be unacceptable 2020-07-14T01:27:44Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T01:29:49Z gjulio_ joined #lisp 2020-07-14T01:33:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T01:34:01Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-14T01:35:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-14T01:36:09Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T01:36:18Z akoana left #lisp 2020-07-14T01:36:29Z madage joined #lisp 2020-07-14T01:40:16Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-14T01:46:59Z tristero quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-14T01:47:58Z luci666 joined #lisp 2020-07-14T01:49:49Z kinope joined #lisp 2020-07-14T01:51:40Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-14T01:51:42Z terpri__ joined #lisp 2020-07-14T01:53:55Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-14T01:54:39Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-14T01:55:31Z Kaisyu7 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-07-14T01:56:15Z ferpb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-14T01:56:50Z ferpb joined #lisp 2020-07-14T02:01:59Z Oladon: White_Flame: I'm hoping for some tips on figuring out what my parser should output. I'm following up on that BBCode/Commonmark parser from last time (thanks again for your version!) 2020-07-14T02:04:08Z White_Flame: sure 2020-07-14T02:04:18Z White_Flame: I haven't gotten around to packaging mine up, really busy with other stuff :-/ 2020-07-14T02:04:48Z Oladon: No worries. It's been good practice :) 2020-07-14T02:05:15Z Oladon: I'm using spinneret, so technically I could probably output spinneret pseudo-DOM... but that seems kinda specific to this use case' 2020-07-14T02:05:19Z Oladon: -' 2020-07-14T02:05:20Z Kaisyu7 joined #lisp 2020-07-14T02:06:25Z White_Flame: one of the bigger things with bbcode is that you have to allow unbalanced brackets & tags to go through unmodifieed 2020-07-14T02:06:50Z White_Flame: (or at least, that's the most user-helpful failure case. If you eat unbalanced contents, the user has no clue what went wrong) 2020-07-14T02:07:37Z White_Flame: [a][b]foo[/a][/b] has sometimes been supported in various boards, too 2020-07-14T02:09:54Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T02:13:44Z Oladon: Yeah, I decided not to try to support that last bit for now 2020-07-14T02:14:00Z Oladon: My in-order combinator allows for ignoring incomplete/unbalanced stuff 2020-07-14T02:15:12Z Oladon: Just not really sure if I should shoot for alists as output, or a list of string + DOMish AST, or what 2020-07-14T02:15:27Z Oladon: And if there are any good arguments one way or another, or if it's pretty much just preference 2020-07-14T02:16:08Z White_Flame: for this case, I'd say a list of terms, where a term is either a string or ( . ) 2020-07-14T02:16:20Z Oladon: hmm 2020-07-14T02:16:54Z Oladon: What about complex tags that take arguments, like [url=title]...[/url] or [color=red]? 2020-07-14T02:17:16Z White_Flame: ah, then ( . ) :) 2020-07-14T02:17:22Z Oladon: Hmm 2020-07-14T02:17:30Z White_Flame: always have a place for the params, even if it's often nil 2020-07-14T02:17:57Z White_Flame: or make a 3-element struct the more positional you get. But it will always contain a list of terms which can nest tags beneath it 2020-07-14T02:18:24Z z3t0: White_Flame: what is mainlinecode? 2020-07-14T02:18:28Z Oladon: Makes sense... what's the benefit of doing (x y . z) as opposed to just (x y z)? 2020-07-14T02:18:38Z jbgg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-14T02:18:58Z lonjil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T02:19:10Z White_Flame: just preference really 2020-07-14T02:19:20Z White_Flame: whether it's 1 list ith header stuff, vs an explicit sublist 2020-07-14T02:19:30Z White_Flame: since a cdr can be treated as a separate list, it's handy 2020-07-14T02:19:57Z Oladon: Isn't the cdr of (1 2 . 3) going to be (2 . 3)? (I think I'm missing something.) 2020-07-14T02:20:26Z White_Flame: (:b () "Bold text with an " (:i () "italicized") " word") 2020-07-14T02:20:34Z White_Flame: vs 2020-07-14T02:20:47Z White_Flame: (:b () ("Bold text with an " (:i () "italicized") " word")) 2020-07-14T02:20:58Z Oladon: Ahh 2020-07-14T02:21:56Z lonjil joined #lisp 2020-07-14T02:22:08Z White_Flame: and of course that translates easily to html 2020-07-14T02:22:16Z White_Flame: since the body is a list of stuff like that 2020-07-14T02:22:33Z Oladon: Yeah, that makes sense. Hang on, though... which one are you espousing? 2020-07-14T02:23:00Z White_Flame: I would default to the 1st one. But the latter is useful if you add in more peer lists than the 2 that exists 2020-07-14T02:23:12Z White_Flame: again, as it becomes more positional, you probably want to move to structs 2020-07-14T02:23:27Z Oladon: Gotcha. What would your access look like for the various parts of the first one, and what do you mean by positional? 2020-07-14T02:23:31Z White_Flame: instead of having a list of 7 things in deliberate order 2020-07-14T02:23:58Z White_Flame: ( ...) 2020-07-14T02:24:06Z Oladon: Oh, you mean if I end up having (x y z aa bb . zz) 2020-07-14T02:24:07Z Oladon: gotcha 2020-07-14T02:24:08Z Oladon: yeah 2020-07-14T02:24:28Z White_Flame: each thing in the list has some position by protocol, but unenforced by anything. THe struct keeps tract of what is where by name, which is handy when there's more than just a few associated things 2020-07-14T02:24:32Z White_Flame: yep 2020-07-14T02:25:10Z White_Flame: and defstruct can actually manage lists for you, if you need it kept as a single list of terms in meaningful positions 2020-07-14T02:25:21Z jbgg joined #lisp 2020-07-14T02:25:41Z White_Flame: (defstruct (foo (:type list)) ...) 2020-07-14T02:26:22Z ferpb quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.0.91)) 2020-07-14T02:26:52Z Oladon: I haven't done much with defstruct; probably a good time to explore it 2020-07-14T02:27:04Z Oladon: CLOS seems like overkill for this :P 2020-07-14T02:27:22Z White_Flame: yeah, I use methods here & there, but almost never defclass 2020-07-14T02:27:33Z jurov_ joined #lisp 2020-07-14T02:27:39Z White_Flame is probably in the minority on that one 2020-07-14T02:27:43Z aaaaaa joined #lisp 2020-07-14T02:30:35Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-14T02:31:11Z satousan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-07-14T02:32:57Z Oladon: Yeah, I like it for a lot of stuff :) 2020-07-14T02:33:45Z Oladon: Alright, so tangentially-related question for you... how in the world am I supposed to implement an escape character? :P 2020-07-14T02:34:13Z Oladon: (I should probably not be thinking about that yet, but c'est la vie...) 2020-07-14T02:36:38Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T02:37:31Z White_Flame: hmm, for what? 2020-07-14T02:37:50Z White_Flame: unescaped brackets are plain brackets in output; they don't require escaping 2020-07-14T02:38:12Z Oladon: Good point... 2020-07-14T02:38:53Z Oladon: But then it seems like my parser is going to have to backtrack 2020-07-14T02:39:01Z White_Flame: yep 2020-07-14T02:39:05Z Oladon: Ah. 2020-07-14T02:39:12Z Oladon: That's unfortunate. 2020-07-14T02:39:30Z White_Flame: well, it's just trimming output and returning to a point in the input string/stream, so it's really not bad 2020-07-14T02:40:47Z Oladon: Hmm... I can't quite visualize the path forward from where I am. Maybe I'm in the wrong place. Today I have, for example, (in-order (bbcode-open-tag) (one-or-more (anything-but ([))) (bbcode-matching-close-tag)) 2020-07-14T02:40:55Z Oladon: (Of course, the middle bit is what needs to change) 2020-07-14T02:41:12Z Oladon: (This doesn't support nested tags either :)) 2020-07-14T02:42:31Z satousan joined #lisp 2020-07-14T02:48:40Z SYMINAL quit (Quit: SYMINAL) 2020-07-14T02:48:47Z SYMINAL_ joined #lisp 2020-07-14T02:48:56Z satousan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-07-14T02:49:12Z SYMINAL_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T02:49:22Z Oladon: Hmm, (in-order (bbcode-open-tag) (one-or-more (any (bbcode-matching-close-tag) (anything)))) works 2020-07-14T02:49:39Z Oladon: But it ain't purty ;) 2020-07-14T02:49:57Z White_Flame: it's also the first thing that works, which is a good model to then make the purty version from 2020-07-14T02:50:05Z Oladon: Heh, fair 2020-07-14T02:50:19Z White_Flame: since you then know the details that you need to get together in a better way 2020-07-14T02:50:54Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-14T02:56:34Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-14T02:59:07Z Oladon: Aight. I should log out. Appreciate your help this evening! 2020-07-14T02:59:11Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-07-14T02:59:20Z Oladon: Morning beach! And night to you as well! 2020-07-14T03:07:57Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-14T03:13:22Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T03:14:52Z johnjay joined #lisp 2020-07-14T03:27:51Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-14T03:30:45Z nopolitica joined #lisp 2020-07-14T03:32:05Z aaaaaa left #lisp 2020-07-14T03:38:11Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-14T03:38:34Z nopolitica quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 2020-07-14T03:39:48Z mathrick joined #lisp 2020-07-14T03:46:44Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-07-14T03:52:55Z q-u-a-n23 joined #lisp 2020-07-14T03:53:40Z minion quit (Disconnected by services) 2020-07-14T03:53:43Z minion joined #lisp 2020-07-14T03:54:47Z q-u-a-n2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T03:54:48Z adlai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-14T03:54:48Z gko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T03:54:58Z liead joined #lisp 2020-07-14T04:04:19Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T04:04:28Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-14T04:04:38Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-14T04:06:30Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2020-07-14T04:09:25Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-14T04:09:36Z kinope quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-14T04:18:02Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-07-14T04:21:42Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-14T04:22:03Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-07-14T04:28:58Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-14T04:39:56Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-14T04:44:56Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-07-14T04:46:26Z ldb: good afternnon 2020-07-14T04:50:53Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-07-14T04:51:01Z mrcom_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-14T04:51:52Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-14T04:57:26Z mrcom joined #lisp 2020-07-14T04:58:42Z beach: Hello ldb. 2020-07-14T05:00:46Z ldb: hello beach 2020-07-14T05:01:40Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-07-14T05:03:27Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-07-14T05:05:03Z terpri__ is now known as terpri 2020-07-14T05:08:10Z ldb: (terpri) 2020-07-14T05:08:30Z Elronnd joined #lisp 2020-07-14T05:09:33Z Elronnd: why do some lisps (1.5?, emacs) use setq, some (cl) use setf, and some use set! (scheme)? What do the 'q' and 'f' mean? 2020-07-14T05:09:59Z beach: q means quote. 2020-07-14T05:10:12Z beach: In the beginning there was SET that evaluated both arguments. 2020-07-14T05:10:56Z beach: I am not sure what F means, but it is used for side-effecting operations. SETF is more versatile than SETQ because it can set places other than variables. 2020-07-14T05:11:39Z beach: Common Lisp still has SETQ and it is a special operator. 2020-07-14T05:11:53Z beach: SETF is a macro that is then expanded to simpler operators. 2020-07-14T05:12:13Z Elronnd: ah, neat 2020-07-14T05:12:40Z Elronnd: why does scheme change to set!? 2020-07-14T05:12:42Z beach: Scheme just wanted to have a more direct indication for side effects and predicates, so it uses ! and ? 2020-07-14T05:13:16Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-07-14T05:13:45Z beach: And I don't know how versatile Scheme set! is. This is a Common Lisp channel after all. 2020-07-14T05:15:58Z ldb: according to Lisp Machine Manual, setf means set `form' 2020-07-14T05:16:23Z ldb: and Scheme prefer to use ! to indicate procedures with side effect 2020-07-14T05:16:26Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T05:17:38Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T05:18:16Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-14T05:21:01Z beach: And the reason we don't use SET anymore is that modern Lisps want the compiler to do more work, so that efficient code can be generated. For that to work, the name of variables must be known at compile time. If a new variable name can magically appear, say with (SET (READ) 234), then there is little the compiler can do. 2020-07-14T05:23:22Z Elronnd: (eval `(set ,(read) 234)) 2020-07-14T05:23:47Z Elronnd: s/set/setf/ 2020-07-14T05:23:48Z beach: What is that example supposed to show? 2020-07-14T05:24:10Z Elronnd: that a new variable name can magically appear 2020-07-14T05:24:15Z beach: In a modern Lisp like Common Lisp, EVAL does not have access to the lexical environment. 2020-07-14T05:24:42Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-14T05:24:55Z beach: So (let ((x 0)) (eval `(setf ,(read) 234))) does not influence X even if that is the symbol returned by READ. 2020-07-14T05:24:59Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-14T05:25:31Z beach: It will affect the special variable X if there is such a thing. 2020-07-14T05:26:08Z beach: Another way of putting it is that the form given to EVAL is evaluated in the global environment, also known as the "null lexical environment". 2020-07-14T05:26:12Z beach: clhs eval 2020-07-14T05:26:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eval.htm 2020-07-14T05:26:27Z Elronnd: ahh, I see 2020-07-14T05:27:46Z beach: Common Lisp was designed so that a compiler can generate fast code, if written the right way. 2020-07-14T05:28:10Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-07-14T05:28:11Z beach: As opposed to languages like Python that do not even pretend that it is possible to generate fast code. 2020-07-14T05:29:12Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-14T05:29:14Z ldb: if you'd like to hear a longer explaination on where does setf from, there was a SETFQ function that could alter a value produced by function, later abbreviated and adapted to Lisp Machine's SETF 2020-07-14T05:30:57Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-14T05:31:27Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-14T05:31:57Z ldb: and that was BBN-LISP 2020-07-14T05:33:12Z beach: Elronnd: The Common Lisp standard is a very impressive piece of work. It is clear that it was designed by a bunch of people who are both smart and knowledgeable. That's why it is sad to see individuals without sufficient knowledge trying to "improve" the standard, or even design a "better" language. 2020-07-14T05:33:14Z terpri: schemes often have a method of extending set!, similar to setf, as with (info "(guile) Procedures with Setters") 2020-07-14T05:33:53Z beach: terpri: I think the key words here are "schemeS" and "often", meaning there is no standard. 2020-07-14T05:33:55Z terpri: not standardized as of r5rs, iirc; there's probably an srfi for it, and it might be included in some form in r6rs or r7rs 2020-07-14T05:33:59Z terpri: yeah 2020-07-14T05:39:26Z beach: Elronnd: For example, it would be tempting for some of those people to give EVAL access to the lexical environment, thereby making most compiler optimizations impossible. 2020-07-14T05:40:26Z ldb quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-14T05:40:27Z terpri: islisp has setf, but it's not arbitrarily extensible (http://islisp.org/docs/islisp-v23.pdf p35, place-form operators are limited to basic getters like car &c., and extensible only in that it can be used with slot reader functions applied to instances, iiuc) 2020-07-14T05:42:38Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-14T05:43:15Z terpri: ...i'm completely wrong actually, you can define (setf ...) generic functions apparently 2020-07-14T05:44:02Z froggey joined #lisp 2020-07-14T05:47:26Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-07-14T05:47:46Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T06:04:10Z kleptoflora joined #lisp 2020-07-14T06:05:54Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-14T06:06:35Z anatrope quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-14T06:09:02Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-14T06:16:04Z bsd4me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-14T06:16:21Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-14T06:19:04Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-14T06:24:59Z vegai: so quicklisp is the contemporary way to install library dependencies, right? 2020-07-14T06:25:23Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2020-07-14T06:25:29Z beach: Well, to install the libraries. Quicklisp handles the dependencies. 2020-07-14T06:26:24Z vegai: does it (or some other system) support lock files? 2020-07-14T06:26:57Z vegai: dunno if that's actually a required thing in cl, given the stability of most libraries 2020-07-14T06:30:36Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-14T06:30:39Z beach: What would such support do? 2020-07-14T06:31:32Z phoe: you can pin libraries by downloading them to local-projects 2020-07-14T06:31:51Z phoe: and setting the git repo to the version you want 2020-07-14T06:33:31Z ahungry: npm gets a lot of grief for node_modules/ being huge, but it is a nice convenience where my project could depend on a library at version 1.2.3, and a dependency of mine may depend on that same library at version 2.3.4, although it also lends itself well to constant backwards compatability breakage (much more than I've seen in other communities) 2020-07-14T06:33:56Z ahungry: usually the lock files maintain the exact versions for the entire dependency of dependency tree 2020-07-14T06:35:12Z gjulio_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T06:35:48Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T06:41:55Z shka_: oh gosh, usocket does not always raise defined conditions 2020-07-14T06:42:49Z beach: shka_: Conditions are not "raised" in Common Lisp. They are "signaled". 2020-07-14T06:43:20Z SYMINAL joined #lisp 2020-07-14T06:43:52Z SYMINAL quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T06:44:54Z shka_: beach: oh, that makes it completely fine! 2020-07-14T06:46:00Z phoe: shka_: example? 2020-07-14T06:49:20Z shka_: moment, i have a long running task boiling down to sending requests with dexador and suddenly a cl:error (not a subclass) out of the usocket 2020-07-14T06:49:53Z shka_: i forgot to check the stack trace though :/ 2020-07-14T06:49:56Z shka_: silly me 2020-07-14T06:50:15Z phoe: what was in the stack trace? 2020-07-14T06:52:10Z shka_: don't remember precisely, but i recall usocket at the top 2020-07-14T06:52:18Z shka_: but it couldn't be 2020-07-14T06:52:34Z phoe: huh 2020-07-14T06:52:49Z shka_: nothing in the usocket signals condition with a description like this 2020-07-14T06:53:04Z shka_: so perhaps i was mistaken 2020-07-14T06:53:17Z shka_: i should have save the stack trace 2020-07-14T06:53:57Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-14T06:55:22Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T07:00:05Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-07-14T07:00:15Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-14T07:02:31Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-14T07:12:39Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-14T07:12:47Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-14T07:14:11Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-14T07:17:36Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-14T07:18:07Z flip214: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/doc/best_practices.md#simple_testing has (defsystem "foobar/tests" ...) and a few lines further (defsystem "foobar-tests" ...) 2020-07-14T07:18:20Z flip214: is dash or slash the current convention? 2020-07-14T07:22:18Z phoe: flip214: you forgot about "foobar.test" 2020-07-14T07:22:44Z phoe: slash happens only if both ASDF systems reside in the same ASD file 2020-07-14T07:22:49Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-07-14T07:37:29Z flip214: phoe: so there is no convention? 2020-07-14T07:38:34Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T07:38:46Z phoe: flip214: I've seen all three 2020-07-14T07:38:48Z cpape quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-14T07:38:55Z cpape joined #lisp 2020-07-14T07:39:12Z phoe: I have a personal tase for "foobar.test" that also introduces the singular/plural aspect 2020-07-14T07:39:37Z phoe: s/tase/taste/ 2020-07-14T07:42:42Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-07-14T07:45:03Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-14T07:47:11Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-14T07:47:33Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-14T07:50:45Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T07:59:20Z flip214: Using fiveam I see a strange behaviour. Without a (DECLARE (IGNORE ...)) I get an "unused var" warning and a failure; with the DECLARE the tests succeeds. 2020-07-14T07:59:23Z flip214: PERF-PCT evaluated to 1.4643059 which is not <= to 1.5 2020-07-14T07:59:40Z phoe: huh! 2020-07-14T07:59:48Z flip214: is the error for a (fiveam:is (<= 1.5 perf-pct)) 2020-07-14T08:05:17Z flip214: grrr, now (after changing the calculation a bit) I get the error even _with_ DECLARE. PERF-PCT evaluated to 0.94503224 which is not <= to 1.5 2020-07-14T08:05:56Z phoe: well, (<= 1.5 0.94) is false, so the test seems to work 2020-07-14T08:06:04Z phoe: I don't know about the DECLARE IGNORE thing though 2020-07-14T08:06:24Z flip214: phoe: arrrg, yeah, just found it out as well! 2020-07-14T08:06:35Z flip214: the text string produced by FIVEAM is bad 2020-07-14T08:06:46Z phoe: oh, yes, the arguments are flipped 2020-07-14T08:06:52Z phoe: (pun (not) intended) 2020-07-14T08:07:42Z flip214: phoe: thanks! ;) writing an issue 2020-07-14T08:09:52Z holycow joined #lisp 2020-07-14T08:17:24Z phoe: I assume that fiveam expects some sort of equality test there 2020-07-14T08:17:37Z phoe: and that's an imperfect heuristic, as you just found out 2020-07-14T08:18:16Z phoe: and I think it may make fireworks with all sorts of asymmetric binary operators, such as TYPEP 2020-07-14T08:18:17Z flip214: phoe: (is (<= 1.1 1.4 0.9)) is less intelligent and works ;) 2020-07-14T08:18:39Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-07-14T08:18:52Z phoe: yes 2020-07-14T08:19:05Z flip214: https://github.com/sionescu/fiveam/issues/68 2020-07-14T08:20:57Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-14T08:24:18Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T08:32:25Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-14T08:35:24Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-07-14T08:36:11Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-14T08:36:47Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-07-14T08:36:53Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-07-14T08:37:55Z iissaacc: Does anyone know, if I have quicklisp and ultralisp dists registered in quicklisp, if its possible to specify what dist to install a package from? 2020-07-14T08:38:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2020-07-14T08:38:33Z iissaacc: cl-json seems to be broken on ultralisp and thats where quicklisp is trying to install it from 2020-07-14T08:39:35Z iissaacc: i.e. 2020-07-14T08:39:52Z iissaacc: # 2020-07-14T08:39:55Z iissaacc: vs 2020-07-14T08:40:11Z iissaacc: # 2020-07-14T08:41:30Z luna-is-here joined #lisp 2020-07-14T08:44:11Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-14T08:45:11Z anatrope joined #lisp 2020-07-14T08:47:32Z kleptoflora quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T08:49:22Z flip214: iissaacc: there's a (QL-DIST:DISABLE ), perhaps that helps? 2020-07-14T08:52:39Z iissaacc: bingo 2020-07-14T08:52:44Z iissaacc: thanks flip214 2020-07-14T08:54:13Z gko`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T08:54:21Z gko`` joined #lisp 2020-07-14T08:55:11Z luna-is-here quit (Quit: luna-is-here) 2020-07-14T08:55:32Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2020-07-14T08:55:37Z iissaacc: might do a bit of hackage on ql:quickload so i can specify the dist 2020-07-14T08:56:09Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-07-14T08:59:28Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-14T09:11:10Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-14T09:11:27Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-14T09:11:43Z luna_is_here is now known as luna-is-here 2020-07-14T09:11:44Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T09:12:00Z luna-is-here is now known as luna_is_here 2020-07-14T09:12:45Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-14T09:12:59Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-14T09:31:37Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-14T09:31:55Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-14T09:36:33Z pve: Is it normal for the slime modeline to sort of "flicker" about once per second? 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2020-07-14T10:44:36Z iissaacc: thanks for the software btw i assume u are the eponymous xach 2020-07-14T10:46:17Z Lycurgus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T10:46:29Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-07-14T10:47:35Z Xach: iissaacc: one option is ql-dist::(setf (preference (find-system-in-dist "cl-json" (dist "ultralisp"))) (get-universal-time)) 2020-07-14T10:48:04Z Xach: oops 2020-07-14T10:48:09Z Xach: change that from ultralisp to quicklisp 2020-07-14T10:48:28Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-14T10:48:28Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-07-14T10:48:29Z Xach: also, odd that ultralisp uses cl-json bundled with qooxlisp, which is surely out of date. 2020-07-14T10:49:07Z iissaacc: yeah i feel like the best course of action is just to uninstall ultralisp 2020-07-14T10:49:20Z iissaacc: thanks for that tho, copied into emacs notes 2020-07-14T10:50:15Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-07-14T10:51:04Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T10:53:09Z epony quit (Quit: reconfigure-now) 2020-07-14T10:53:59Z epony joined #lisp 2020-07-14T11:06:28Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-07-14T11:06:50Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-14T11:15:26Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T11:30:25Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-07-14T11:30:45Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-14T11:38:06Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-14T11:51:52Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-14T11:53:02Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-14T11:53:14Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-14T11:53:23Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-07-14T11:53:59Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-14T11:59:17Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-14T12:02:12Z terpri__ joined #lisp 2020-07-14T12:05:00Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T12:10:26Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-14T12:12:10Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-14T12:12:38Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-14T12:13:59Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T12:15:26Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-14T12:16:47Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-14T12:16:58Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-14T12:18:09Z beach: phoe: http://metamodular.com/SICL/creating-cl-abstract-2.text 2020-07-14T12:26:41Z libertyprime quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-14T12:31:24Z phoe: beach: OK, thanks. Will announce today. 2020-07-14T12:32:17Z beach: Great! 2020-07-14T12:38:42Z Posterdati: hi 2020-07-14T12:39:00Z beach: Hello Posterdati. 2020-07-14T12:39:12Z Posterdati: beach: hello! 2020-07-14T12:39:46Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-07-14T12:40:52Z Posterdati: is anyone reviewing gsll and cffi to work under sbcl on OpenBSD? 2020-07-14T12:58:40Z flip214: Is there a way to ensure that some function will not be optimized away? I'd like to keep a FILL-SEQUENCE in, even if the sequence is only dynamic extent and not used later on 2020-07-14T12:59:51Z beach: Functions in the global environment will not be optimized away. 2020-07-14T13:00:14Z jackdaniel: if it is a local function, you may force its escape 2020-07-14T13:00:24Z jackdaniel: i.e (push #'fill-sequence *my-trashbin*) 2020-07-14T13:01:37Z Bike: fill-sequence is your own function? it's unlikely the compiler is willing to optimize away a call to a possibly redefinable function. are you observing it doing so? 2020-07-14T13:02:03Z flip214: I'm sorry, I don't understand you. I want to keep the _call_ of the function in, making sure that it's not eliminated as dead-code or so. 2020-07-14T13:02:48Z flip214: Bike: I want to destroy a secret key in a vector; and C has a history of optimizing things (like a memset) away, so I thought I'd better ask. 2020-07-14T13:02:58Z Bike: ah, right, like that bzero stuff 2020-07-14T13:04:05Z Bike: to be really sure you'll probably have to check the disassembly, and then if it's still removed... well... talk to the implementation devs probably 2020-07-14T13:05:55Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-14T13:13:24Z vornth joined #lisp 2020-07-14T13:14:25Z flip214: so there's no cross-platform way, like a (LOCALLY (OPTIMIZE (space 0) (debug 3) (safety 100))) or so? thanks 2020-07-14T13:15:49Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T13:16:18Z Bike: notinline is the closest thing, i think 2020-07-14T13:16:19Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-14T13:16:42Z leo_song quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2020-07-14T13:16:56Z Bike: i would be surprised if a compiler optimized away a call to a notinline function. assuming that by "dead code" you mean that the result isn't used etc, rather than that the code is unreachable 2020-07-14T13:17:53Z Bike: notinline tells the compiler it can't assume anything about the function, essentially; so perhaps it has some visible side effects, so it can't be optimized away 2020-07-14T13:20:09Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-14T13:20:45Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-14T13:20:51Z cosimone_ joined #lisp 2020-07-14T13:21:10Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-07-14T13:22:05Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver) 2020-07-14T13:31:16Z markong joined #lisp 2020-07-14T13:32:09Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-14T13:37:00Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-14T13:44:31Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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I thought about doing (funcall 'fill-sequence vec) - that can't be inlined or optimized away unless (setf symbol-function) etc. is gone, too - but that "feels" unclean and non-optimal 2020-07-14T18:56:37Z flip214: CL is old enough that there should be a optimization setting for that ;) 2020-07-14T18:57:20Z Bike: declaring notinline is basically the same as doing that funcall 2020-07-14T19:00:51Z flip214: okay, thanks a lot! 2020-07-14T19:01:19Z Bike: no problem 2020-07-14T19:02:48Z flip214: ah, and I meant FILL when I wrote FILL-SEQUENCE 2020-07-14T19:03:25Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T19:04:59Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-14T19:07:44Z Jesin joined #lisp 2020-07-14T19:09:11Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-14T19:09:27Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-14T19:12:20Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-14T19:12:44Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-14T19:12:45Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-14T19:12:59Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-14T19:13:08Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-14T19:13:24Z luna_is_here quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-14T19:13:38Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-07-14T19:15:00Z red-dot joined #lisp 2020-07-14T19:18:01Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-14T19:18:07Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2020-07-14T19:20:12Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-14T19:26:22Z Elronnd joined #lisp 2020-07-14T19:39:22Z chewb: thank you beach Alt-p works 2020-07-14T19:40:50Z chewb: do you know how to quickly disable paredit? 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Oh, and a Palm Pilot. 2020-07-15T00:56:07Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-15T00:56:18Z gjulio_ joined #lisp 2020-07-15T00:57:52Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-15T00:59:50Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-15T01:02:09Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-15T01:04:10Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-15T01:05:01Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-15T01:05:05Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-15T01:05:26Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-15T01:07:42Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-15T01:09:54Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-15T01:13:27Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-15T01:13:55Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-15T01:14:16Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-15T01:15:48Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-15T01:15:56Z z3t0: that's cool! especially the palm pilot actually 2020-07-15T01:15:58Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-15T01:16:16Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-15T01:16:29Z z3t0: Did the pilot have apis for drawing? Or how did you handle that? 2020-07-15T01:18:44Z xrash joined #lisp 2020-07-15T01:23:50Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-15T01:26:02Z Oladon: Drawing? You just typed your code... 2020-07-15T01:26:23Z Oladon: Don't tell the channel, but I believe it was a Scheme variant. ;) 2020-07-15T01:27:08Z aaaaaa quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-15T01:29:23Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-15T01:29:40Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-15T01:30:06Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T01:44:06Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-15T01:45:10Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-07-15T01:45:16Z ldb: good morning everyone 2020-07-15T01:46:07Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-15T01:46:11Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-15T01:48:38Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-15T01:53:24Z ferpb left #lisp 2020-07-15T01:57:03Z z3t0: Oladon: Oh. I noticed it had a pen/stylus? I thought it would support drawing lines and what 2020-07-15T01:58:00Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-15T01:58:17Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T02:00:00Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-15T02:00:08Z Oladon: Oh, maybe. Don't recall doing any drawing in Lisp specifically, but it had a pretty spiffy handwriting recognition system 2020-07-15T02:00:31Z Oladon: ldb: Morning! 2020-07-15T02:02:17Z z3t0: thats neat! I'm trying to do a survey of gui tooklits. What I'd like to write is an application that runs on linux and has support for touch paradigms. I also plan to hack together a handwriting component. So far I'm looking into ltk - wondering if it's easy to write custom components there. 2020-07-15T02:02:40Z z3t0: I want to avoid qt for now since its a much larger dependency and I don't plan to use much of what it offers 2020-07-15T02:02:45Z z3t0: ldb: morning :D 2020-07-15T02:03:05Z Oladon: Haven't used LTK, sorry :) 2020-07-15T02:03:15Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-15T02:07:14Z ldb: is there any linux distro already having touch screen support? 2020-07-15T02:09:17Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-15T02:09:20Z ldb: other than Andriod, if that is considered as a linux distro 2020-07-15T02:10:27Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T02:10:33Z akoana: well gnome3 (available on many distros) should support touch screen well 2020-07-15T02:11:56Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-15T02:11:57Z ldb: akoana: thank you 2020-07-15T02:12:30Z akoana: same for KDE Plasma (so Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu ... all the "main" distros) 2020-07-15T02:28:15Z ldb left #lisp 2020-07-15T02:36:41Z satousan joined #lisp 2020-07-15T02:36:59Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-15T02:40:41Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-15T02:43:55Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-15T02:44:16Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-15T02:54:54Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-15T02:55:06Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-15T02:55:06Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-15T02:55:07Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-15T02:56:34Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-15T02:56:59Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-15T02:59:47Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-15T03:00:47Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-15T03:03:17Z gjulio_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-15T03:07:26Z satousan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-07-15T03:10:52Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-15T03:12:36Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-07-15T03:16:45Z iissaacc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-15T03:18:21Z beach: Good morning everyone! 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nil :defaults RESULT) 2020-07-15T12:13:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-15T12:15:30Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-15T12:18:14Z Posterdati: hi 2020-07-15T12:19:01Z Posterdati: seems that even ecl does not work with gsll on OpenBSD :( 2020-07-15T12:19:49Z McParen left #lisp 2020-07-15T12:21:12Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-07-15T12:22:41Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-15T12:23:25Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-15T12:25:27Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-07-15T12:25:52Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-15T12:29:03Z gera quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-15T12:29:54Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-07-15T12:30:17Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-15T12:39:52Z ferpb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-15T12:43:17Z vutral quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-15T12:45:43Z phoe: annnnd we're on HN frontpage https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23843525 2020-07-15T12:46:44Z vornth joined #lisp 2020-07-15T12:47:08Z gera joined #lisp 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2020-07-15T16:18:35Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-15T16:19:17Z theosvoitha: Hello Is it worth to learn Emacs Lisp? 2020-07-15T16:19:35Z phoe: theosvoitha: well 2020-07-15T16:19:41Z phoe: you landed in a place full of Common Lisp programmers 2020-07-15T16:19:48Z phoe: so we can certainly tell you that it is worth to learn Common Lisp 2020-07-15T16:20:00Z phoe: but #emacs might be a better place for your original question 2020-07-15T16:20:23Z theosvoitha: okay thanks phoe. 2020-07-15T16:22:11Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-15T16:22:28Z theosvoitha: They clearly asked me to learn other lisps (Other than emacs lisp_ 2020-07-15T16:22:33Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-15T16:22:51Z beach: They? 2020-07-15T16:23:01Z theosvoitha: #emacs 2020-07-15T16:23:05Z beach: Ah. 2020-07-15T16:23:07Z phoe: well then! you landed in a right place 2020-07-15T16:23:13Z beach: Then Common Lisp is a good choice. 2020-07-15T16:23:17Z theosvoitha: ha ha. so guide me. 2020-07-15T16:23:27Z theosvoitha: i mean what can i do.. 2020-07-15T16:23:35Z jackdaniel: minion: tell theosvoitha about pcl 2020-07-15T16:23:36Z minion: theosvoitha: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2020-07-15T16:23:39Z jackdaniel: minion: tell theosvoitha about paip 2020-07-15T16:23:39Z minion: theosvoitha: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp 2020-07-15T16:24:05Z jackdaniel: minion: tell theosvoitha about portacle 2020-07-15T16:24:06Z minion: theosvoitha: portacle: Portacle is a complete IDE for Common Lisp that you can take with you on a USB stick https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/ 2020-07-15T16:24:18Z jackdaniel: minion: thank you 2020-07-15T16:24:19Z minion: you're welcome 2020-07-15T16:25:22Z jackdaniel: feel guided 2020-07-15T16:25:30Z bsd4me quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-15T16:25:32Z jackdaniel makes some weird movements with his hand 2020-07-15T16:25:54Z theosvoitha: thanks jackdaniel minion. 2020-07-15T16:26:33Z beach: theosvoitha: For newbie questions, there is help in #clschool too. 2020-07-15T16:26:54Z theosvoitha: thanks beach 2020-07-15T16:27:06Z beach: Sure. 2020-07-15T16:27:17Z theosvoitha: I guess now i need to find some replacement for GNU emacs. 2020-07-15T16:27:35Z jackdaniel: most people who work with open source common lisp implementations use gnu emacs 2020-07-15T16:27:37Z jackdaniel: see portacle 2020-07-15T16:27:52Z jackdaniel: which is emacs with batties included 2020-07-15T16:27:57Z jackdaniel: batteries 2020-07-15T16:28:43Z theosvoitha: Portacle is a complete IDE for Common Lisp 2020-07-15T16:29:43Z beach: Sort of. It is a collection of components. 2020-07-15T16:29:48Z beach: Emacs is one component. 2020-07-15T16:30:00Z beach: SBCL is the Common Lisp implementation component. 2020-07-15T16:30:22Z beach: SLIME is another component. 2020-07-15T16:30:27Z theosvoitha: downloading 2020-07-15T16:30:58Z theosvoitha: If you guys do not mind, can you suggest me some GNU Emacs alternative now. 2020-07-15T16:31:23Z phoe: emacs 2020-07-15T16:31:29Z beach: Why do you want an alternative? 2020-07-15T16:31:43Z phoe: it takes a while to get used to, but slime/sly are the best choices for developing lisp stuff. 2020-07-15T16:32:09Z phoe: there also exists SLIMA for Atom - it seems to be getting somewhat good 2020-07-15T16:32:11Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-15T16:32:15Z phoe: and also slimv/vlime for VIM 2020-07-15T16:32:29Z theosvoitha: Because i was told at #emacs that you need to learn Emacs lisp to use it properly. But they also say that better learn other Lisps 2020-07-15T16:32:38Z beach: NOOOOO 2020-07-15T16:32:42Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-07-15T16:32:46Z theosvoitha: oops 2020-07-15T16:33:06Z beach: theosvoitha: When you use GNU Emacs with Common Lisp, you don't need to know anything about Emacs Lisp. 2020-07-15T16:33:09Z beach: Or very little. 2020-07-15T16:33:15Z phoe: ^ 2020-07-15T16:33:16Z jasom never learned emacs lisp 2020-07-15T16:33:18Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-15T16:33:30Z bitmapper: and by the time you learn common lisp you'll know most of emacs lisp anyway 2020-07-15T16:33:30Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-15T16:33:45Z phoe: there exist emacs distributions like spacemacs that bundle a lot of software, including slime/sly - you can use those to avoid writing your own emacs configuration files 2020-07-15T16:33:51Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T16:33:54Z bitmapper: because emacs lisp ⊆ common lisp 2020-07-15T16:34:08Z jasom: I guess I learned enough to be able to put things like (enable-foo) in my init.el but that's mostly treating it like a configuration format, not a programming language 2020-07-15T16:34:09Z bitmapper: in a sense 2020-07-15T16:34:17Z theosvoitha: bitmapper: beach This cleared the stuff. 2020-07-15T16:34:32Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-07-15T16:35:17Z theosvoitha: I tried spacemacs for Windows but it needs some workaround. 2020-07-15T16:36:46Z _death: actually elisp is a much larger language than CL 2020-07-15T16:37:10Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-15T16:37:33Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-15T16:39:24Z theosvoitha: thanks to all you guys for all openness and help!! 2020-07-15T16:39:52Z beach: Pleasure. Good luck! 2020-07-15T16:42:54Z xristos: _death: how so? 2020-07-15T16:43:34Z _death: xristos: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/elisp.html 2020-07-15T16:44:00Z _death: xristos: you need to learn about buffers, windows, etc. 2020-07-15T16:44:36Z xristos: but these concepts are really Emacs models, not Emacs Lisp 2020-07-15T16:44:49Z xristos: you could throw CLIM in with the CL spec and get a similar inflation 2020-07-15T16:44:59Z phoe: but they're an official™ part of elisp 2020-07-15T16:45:01Z xristos: the core language is much much smaller than CL 2020-07-15T16:45:22Z phoe: *this* is the core language 2020-07-15T16:45:32Z xristos: it really isn't 2020-07-15T16:45:44Z phoe: of course that one can carve out a subset that doesn't deal with buffers or windows or all the emacsisms stuffed in there 2020-07-15T16:45:49Z _death: if CLIM were part of the Common Lisp specification... anyway, I know what you mean, and now you know what I meant.. 2020-07-15T16:46:15Z phoe: but puritans will then start whining that it isn't elisp anymore, and if you know just that tiny subset then you don't really know lisp. 2020-07-15T16:46:20Z phoe: s/know lisp/know elisp/ 2020-07-15T16:47:00Z xristos: can you separate the Emacs models from Emacs Lisp and still have a coherent, useful language? 2020-07-15T16:47:03Z xristos: for me the answer is yes 2020-07-15T16:47:12Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-15T16:47:14Z phoe: is that language still elisp? 2020-07-15T16:47:15Z xristos: if the answer was no, i'd agree with both of you 2020-07-15T16:47:19Z phoe: that's the troublesome question 2020-07-15T16:47:20Z xristos: phoe: Guile thinks so 2020-07-15T16:47:28Z _death: elisp doesn't have a standard, and so the language grows (or shrinks) with almost every change of the manual 2020-07-15T16:47:41Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-07-15T16:48:04Z terpri__ is now known as terpri 2020-07-15T16:48:04Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-15T16:48:17Z roze joined #lisp 2020-07-15T16:48:32Z phoe: Guile thinks so to the point where its "elisp" still cannot be used to run most of emacs code though 2020-07-15T16:48:44Z phoe: but then again, we're diving into nomenclature here 2020-07-15T16:48:52Z phoe: and what really can be named "elisp" 2020-07-15T16:49:02Z phoe: I don't think it's fruitful to continue this particular discussion :D 2020-07-15T16:49:36Z theosvoitha: Is there any Lisp IRC Client I can use and learn to hack? 2020-07-15T16:49:51Z jackdaniel: beirc, but it has quite a few issues 2020-07-15T16:50:01Z phoe: birch, trivial-irc 2020-07-15T16:50:04Z xristos: theosvoitha: rcirc in Emacs 2020-07-15T16:50:08Z jackdaniel: there is also a library to sue irc from repl 2020-07-15T16:50:23Z theosvoitha: xristos: I will try that 2020-07-15T16:50:31Z beach: xristos: I think we agreed that theosvoitha wanted something other than Emacs Lisp. 2020-07-15T16:50:31Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-15T16:51:04Z xristos: if you did, i missed it 2020-07-15T16:51:21Z jackdaniel: real lisp programmers have a hardware keyboards with two keys: #\( and #\), you program in binary code for your processor, but having parenthesis instead of 0 and 1 is a nice touch ;) 2020-07-15T16:51:25Z jackdaniel: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.7BT-m3F1_qru0lHDEkYHFQHaF_%26pid%3DApi&f=1 2020-07-15T16:51:26Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-07-15T16:51:40Z jackdaniel: (here is a prototype of the keyboard with wrong keys) 2020-07-15T16:51:41Z phoe: jackdaniel: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Parenthesis_Hell 2020-07-15T16:51:47Z phoe: you obviously mean this lisp dialect 2020-07-15T16:51:52Z theosvoitha: I am running Portable. At it's bottom something called 'polling' is like increasing in number each second. 2020-07-15T16:52:02Z theosvoitha: *Portacle 2020-07-15T16:52:07Z phoe: theosvoitha: hmm, so it's trying to run Common Lisp 2020-07-15T16:52:11Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-15T16:52:17Z phoe: what does the *inferior-lisp* buffer say? 2020-07-15T16:52:34Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-15T16:52:42Z theosvoitha: 289 78% 2020-07-15T16:53:17Z phoe: no no, I mean the contents - can you give us a screenshot? 2020-07-15T16:53:55Z theosvoitha: yeah. l fear say i do not know some website to share. 2020-07-15T16:53:58Z theosvoitha: let me google 2020-07-15T16:53:59Z phoe: imgur.com 2020-07-15T16:56:23Z theosvoitha: https://imgur.com/a/XJT89PJ 2020-07-15T16:56:49Z phoe: oh snap 2020-07-15T16:57:02Z phoe: that's a Windows exception that happened for whatever bloody reason 2020-07-15T16:57:26Z theosvoitha: oh 2020-07-15T16:57:44Z phoe: 1722 is 0x000006BA... huh 2020-07-15T16:57:51Z phoe: I have no idea what is going on in there 2020-07-15T16:58:00Z theosvoitha: ok 2020-07-15T16:58:01Z satousan joined #lisp 2020-07-15T16:58:03Z jackdaniel: does it try to open the port 0 for slime connection? 2020-07-15T16:58:28Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-15T16:58:29Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-15T16:58:29Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-15T16:58:38Z theosvoitha: jackdaniel: really i do not know how to check that 2020-07-15T16:58:51Z jackdaniel: me neither, just guessing 2020-07-15T16:59:08Z jackdaniel: I'm not portacle user myself, so I can't tell 2020-07-15T16:59:37Z theosvoitha: WARNING: the Windows port is fragile, particularly for multithreaded 2020-07-15T16:59:38Z theosvoitha: code. Unfortunately, the development team currently lacks the time 2020-07-15T16:59:38Z theosvoitha: and resources this platform demands. 2020-07-15T16:59:56Z jackdaniel: in the inferior lisp buffer press "1", then "enter", and then 8089 (and enter) 2020-07-15T17:00:08Z phoe: does this thing also happen if you download SBCL yourself and try to run it? 2020-07-15T17:00:10Z jackdaniel: you may also try demo version of the lispworks product 2020-07-15T17:00:14Z theosvoitha: redefining EMACS-INSPECT (#) in DEFMETHOD 2020-07-15T17:00:14Z theosvoitha: 2020-07-15T17:00:14Z theosvoitha: debugger invoked on a SB-WIN32:EXCEPTION in thread 2020-07-15T17:00:14Z theosvoitha: #: 2020-07-15T17:00:14Z theosvoitha: An exception occurred in context #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X0022CEE0): #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X0022DD80). (Exception code: 1722) 2020-07-15T17:00:27Z phoe: yes, that's the error from the screenshot 2020-07-15T17:01:14Z theosvoitha: phoe i never tried SBCL 2020-07-15T17:01:55Z theosvoitha: i just want a platform to learn CL. With text editor to work on daily files. 2020-07-15T17:02:09Z phoe: you might have chosen a wrong language for that 2020-07-15T17:02:18Z phoe: CL is an interactive language, which means that it needs some support from the text editor 2020-07-15T17:02:37Z phoe: the editor needs to be able to connect to the running Lisp and send commands to it and receive commands from it 2020-07-15T17:02:39Z OpenZen joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:02:42Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-07-15T17:02:49Z phoe: that's what slime/sly does for emacs. 2020-07-15T17:02:49Z _death: you can try entering 0 to continue.. is F a network drive? 2020-07-15T17:03:24Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:03:29Z theosvoitha: let me try unzipping again 2020-07-15T17:03:57Z _death: maybe to a path without space characters.. 2020-07-15T17:05:04Z theosvoitha: yes _death 2020-07-15T17:07:12Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-15T17:07:34Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:09:14Z theosvoitha: same thing... 2020-07-15T17:09:19Z mankaev quit 2020-07-15T17:09:28Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:09:47Z _death: what happens if you continue? 2020-07-15T17:10:13Z theosvoitha: restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name): 2020-07-15T17:10:14Z theosvoitha: 0: [CONTINUE ] Return from the exception handler 2020-07-15T17:10:14Z theosvoitha: 1: [USE-VALUE] Try a port other than 1 2020-07-15T17:10:14Z theosvoitha: 2: [ABORT ] Exit debugger, returning to top level. 2020-07-15T17:10:26Z theosvoitha: i try 1 2020-07-15T17:10:35Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-15T17:10:54Z theosvoitha: but it returns back to the same screen 2020-07-15T17:11:15Z _death: oh.. yes, it should use a different port.. 2020-07-15T17:11:55Z theosvoitha: Enter port (defaults to 2): 2020-07-15T17:11:59Z theosvoitha: which port should i enter 2020-07-15T17:12:47Z _death: say 6000 2020-07-15T17:13:10Z theosvoitha: same thing 2020-07-15T17:13:16Z theosvoitha: same screen appears 2020-07-15T17:13:41Z theosvoitha: debugger invoked on a SB-WIN32:EXCEPTION in thread 2020-07-15T17:13:41Z theosvoitha: #: 2020-07-15T17:13:41Z theosvoitha: An exception occurred in context #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X0022CEE0): #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X0022DD80). (Exception code: 1722) 2020-07-15T17:13:41Z theosvoitha: 2020-07-15T17:13:41Z theosvoitha: Type HELP for debugger help, or (SB-EXT:EXIT) to exit from SBCL. 2020-07-15T17:13:41Z theosvoitha: 2020-07-15T17:13:41Z theosvoitha: restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name): 2020-07-15T17:13:42Z theosvoitha: 0: [CONTINUE ] Return from the exception handler 2020-07-15T17:13:43Z theosvoitha: 1: [USE-VALUE] Try a port other than 6000 2020-07-15T17:13:43Z theosvoitha: 2: [ABORT ] Exit debugger, returning to top level. 2020-07-15T17:13:47Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-15T17:14:21Z phoe: Windows throws up for whatever reason 2020-07-15T17:14:29Z phoe: that restart is IMO a false flag 2020-07-15T17:14:31Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:15:10Z _death: you can type :backtrace and paste the result (in a site like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/ ) 2020-07-15T17:15:22Z theosvoitha: okay thanks a lot all guys. it was really a warm welcome here. I will keep idling here. I guess i asked too simple questions. next time i will ask in #clschool 2020-07-15T17:15:42Z phoe: theosvoitha: that isn't simple 2020-07-15T17:15:51Z phoe: I hoped that Portacle worked well on Windows 2020-07-15T17:16:05Z phoe: and still Windows finds its way to raise weird exceptions that I never would expect 2020-07-15T17:16:24Z theosvoitha: phoe: is there any way to use it elsewhere 2020-07-15T17:16:42Z phoe: theosvoitha: I'm about to suggest installing linux 2020-07-15T17:17:02Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:17:14Z theosvoitha: i have some job software which i can't run in windows 2020-07-15T17:17:23Z theosvoitha: *can't run in linux 2020-07-15T17:17:34Z _death: theosvoitha: it looks like emacs and sbcl work.. you just get an error for some reason which is yet to be determined 2020-07-15T17:18:05Z theosvoitha: _death: do i really need to bother about this error. can't i go further and learn at least the basics and use emacs 2020-07-15T17:19:24Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:19:29Z theosvoitha: afterall i can't go deep very soon 2020-07-15T17:19:52Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-15T17:20:02Z _death: theosvoitha: well, you can just run sbcl and use that.. and you can run it from a shell within emacs.. but to get a good experience you need slime (which connects the two and provides the typical development environment) to work 2020-07-15T17:21:05Z theosvoitha: _death: okay let me learn whatever i have. who knows it may get fixed in future. 2020-07-15T17:21:28Z _death: theosvoitha: if you follow my previous instruction (type :backtrace and paste the result) you may get further help there 2020-07-15T17:21:34Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-15T17:22:11Z _death: theosvoitha: if you just want to play with emacs lisp, you can also type M-x ielm RET (that's alt x, ielm, enter) to get an elisp toplevel 2020-07-15T17:23:30Z theosvoitha: _death: I guess i will attempt tomorrow. its too late here. i have saved all instructions. 2020-07-15T17:23:36Z satousan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-07-15T17:25:32Z _death: theosvoitha: also you may ask on #shirakumo (where the author of Portacle dwells) about it or post a Portacle issue.. though the answer may be the same (give a backtrace) 2020-07-15T17:26:03Z phoe: first get a backtrace 2020-07-15T17:26:07Z phoe: and then post an issue on the github repo 2020-07-15T17:26:12Z phoe: stuff the backtrace in there. 2020-07-15T17:26:13Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:26:19Z leo_song_ joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:26:21Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-15T17:26:25Z theosvoitha: I will try a backtrace tomorrow and will share backtrace. 2020-07-15T17:26:50Z theosvoitha: Better not attempt at #shirakumo 2020-07-15T17:27:40Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:27:46Z leo_song quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-15T17:28:13Z madage joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:29:03Z theosvoitha: thanks everyone for this warm welcome. thanks phoe _death beach and all. 2020-07-15T17:30:04Z theosvoitha is now known as theosvoitha_offl 2020-07-15T17:30:35Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-15T17:31:28Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:31:29Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-15T17:37:07Z ckonstanski joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:40:14Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-15T17:41:06Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:42:49Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-15T17:43:20Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-15T17:56:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-15T17:56:22Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-15T18:01:04Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-15T18:03:53Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-15T18:07:15Z roze quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-15T18:09:35Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-15T18:09:35Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-15T18:09:35Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-15T18:12:25Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-15T18:13:28Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-15T18:13:35Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-07-15T18:15:14Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-15T18:16:25Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-15T18:18:40Z johnjay joined #lisp 2020-07-15T18:19:44Z puchacz joined #lisp 2020-07-15T18:20:02Z puchacz: hi, has anybody used foil to communicate with Java? 2020-07-15T18:20:34Z puchacz: 2005 not good, author: Rich Hickey: good. 2020-07-15T18:21:07Z puchacz: I wonder if it is usable in long running servers, i.e. no memory leaks, knows when to drop objects from caches etc. 2020-07-15T18:23:59Z jhei left #lisp 2020-07-15T18:24:22Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-15T18:25:01Z gravicappa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-15T18:27:23Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-15T18:34:11Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-15T18:36:21Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-15T18:37:37Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-15T18:37:55Z countvaj` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-15T18:38:13Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-15T18:38:15Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-15T18:40:10Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-15T18:40:50Z phoe: okay, I think the HN discussion about the book is now done; the article fell off the frontpage 2020-07-15T18:41:13Z phoe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23843525 if anyone'd like to have a read, I'll run off and take a walk now 2020-07-15T18:42:00Z xristos: puchacz: ABCL seems like a better bet 2020-07-15T18:44:01Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-15T18:44:02Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T18:54:07Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-15T18:56:55Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-15T19:02:01Z Grauwolf quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2020-07-15T19:02:39Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:03:38Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:03:38Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-15T19:03:38Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:04:02Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-15T19:05:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:08:42Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:12:22Z Grauwolf joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:12:22Z Grauwolf quit (Changing host) 2020-07-15T19:12:22Z Grauwolf joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:16:11Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-15T19:17:22Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:25:32Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-15T19:25:50Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:26:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-15T19:26:31Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:35:15Z XachX: phoe: cheers for a readable thread despite predicable “objections” 2020-07-15T19:39:39Z puchacz: xristos: but I don't want to have the whole application in ABCL 2020-07-15T19:40:26Z puchacz: I have the application in SBCL 2020-07-15T19:40:53Z puchacz: or you mean just have small stub with ABCL and say hunchentoot on Java side? 2020-07-15T19:43:00Z _death: some months ago I played an hour or two with py4j, writing some lisp to play the part of py.. that approach didn't seem too time-consuming, though I had no use for it 2020-07-15T19:44:16Z puchacz: death: googling py4j, related to my Java question? 2020-07-15T19:45:14Z _death: puchacz: yes.. it allows limited interoperation.. I think I played with it because spark used it 2020-07-15T19:46:01Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-15T19:46:30Z puchacz: I know how to access java from ABCL and I did a lot of it 2020-07-15T19:46:56Z puchacz: so writing hunchentoot handler in ABCL on Java side to allow SBCL application to call into would work. 2020-07-15T19:47:03Z puchacz: but maybe it is an overkill 2020-07-15T19:47:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:47:45Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:48:10Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:51:32Z _death: here's what I wrote then https://gist.github.com/death/dedb220e62f6e35c2c0902c128d01015 2020-07-15T19:52:32Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:52:38Z puchacz: thanks, so I would have to run Java part of py4j. 2020-07-15T19:52:44Z puchacz: ok :) 2020-07-15T19:52:54Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-15T19:54:19Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-07-15T19:55:39Z _death: feel free to create a complete library out of that hack ;) 2020-07-15T19:56:07Z puchacz: cheers :) 2020-07-15T19:58:32Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-15T19:59:52Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T20:08:53Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-07-15T20:12:18Z mangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-15T20:12:36Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-07-15T20:14:15Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-07-15T20:15:52Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-15T20:20:38Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-15T20:23:21Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-15T20:24:43Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T20:25:06Z zooey_ is now known as zooey 2020-07-15T20:32:14Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-15T20:33:24Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T20:39:07Z dra_ joined #lisp 2020-07-15T20:39:48Z dra_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-15T20:39:58Z dra joined #lisp 2020-07-15T20:41:44Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-15T20:42:36Z puchacz: death, if you are still here, Foil looks usable - if you ever need it 2020-07-15T20:42:45Z puchacz: I have not started it yet, just staring at Java code 2020-07-15T20:43:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-15T20:47:58Z dra: Hi. I'm using Emacs + SLIME + Paredit. When editing Lisp files DEL/ is bound to paredit-backward-delete. In the REPL however it's bound to backward-delete-char-untabify. This breaks paren balancing. Here's the relevant part of my SLIME config: https://paste.debian.net/1156557/ 2020-07-15T20:48:02Z dra: Any ideas? 2020-07-15T20:51:19Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-15T20:51:46Z phoe: XachX: I know right 2020-07-15T20:51:59Z phoe: I actually found the objections to be surprisingly pleasant 2020-07-15T20:52:07Z puchacz: phoe: your book is still not available, is it? 2020-07-15T20:52:12Z puchacz: as ebook 2020-07-15T20:52:15Z phoe: I got several bugfix ideas for the book and - Apress will kill me - an idea for a new chapter 2020-07-15T20:52:20Z phoe: puchacz: yes, it only went to production now. 2020-07-15T20:52:20Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-15T20:52:27Z puchacz: ok, tks 2020-07-15T20:53:34Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-15T20:54:47Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-07-15T20:54:58Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-15T20:55:47Z dra: phoe: I read about your book on Hacker News. 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I'm going to see if Quicklisp builds improve at all with it. 2020-07-16T00:43:15Z Xach: Someone in my tiny town improbably has it for sale for cheap enough to give it a try. 2020-07-16T00:43:33Z Bike: nice. 2020-07-16T00:43:35Z Oladon: Xach: Nice! :) 2020-07-16T00:47:03Z Xach: hmm, maybe it's older than that. ad says "2 x 2.60Ghz E5-2670". 2020-07-16T00:47:46Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-16T00:56:33Z vutral joined #lisp 2020-07-16T01:07:55Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-16T01:11:18Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T01:12:32Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-16T01:15:22Z tristero quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-16T01:18:12Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T01:34:04Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-07-16T01:40:25Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-16T01:40:38Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T01:41:37Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-16T01:43:55Z vornth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-16T01:52:24Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-16T01:57:51Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-07-16T02:05:49Z jprajzne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T02:11:50Z LdBeth joined #lisp 2020-07-16T02:12:14Z LdBeth quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-16T02:13:06Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-07-16T02:13:21Z ldb: good morning 2020-07-16T02:14:40Z ldb is now known as LdBeth 2020-07-16T02:15:01Z Archenoth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T02:15:56Z eta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T02:19:08Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-16T02:21:27Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-16T02:21:40Z eta joined #lisp 2020-07-16T02:26:27Z cyraxjoe quit (Quit: I'm out!) 2020-07-16T02:28:58Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2020-07-16T02:30:46Z bsd4me quit (Quit: On the other hand, you have different fingers.) 2020-07-16T02:40:11Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-16T02:42:34Z LdBeth quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-16T02:53:01Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-16T02:53:28Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-16T02:53:28Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-16T02:53:28Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-16T03:00:35Z galepotts joined #lisp 2020-07-16T03:01:31Z karswell joined #lisp 2020-07-16T03:03:22Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T03:03:52Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-16T03:04:22Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-07-16T03:06:06Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-16T03:09:54Z galepotts left #lisp 2020-07-16T03:29:37Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-16T03:39:45Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-07-16T03:41:01Z aeth: phoe: you were inquiring about that file from my util library, right? Oh, wow, it has already been a week. Oops. https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1594208608#1594208608 2020-07-16T03:41:59Z aeth: I've been reorganizing and cleaning up bits and pieces, and I'll probably write tests before deciding what to spin off. So I guess "this week" was too optimistic. 2020-07-16T03:45:39Z vutral quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-16T03:58:21Z gko``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T04:00:15Z gko joined #lisp 2020-07-16T04:00:24Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-07-16T04:05:14Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T04:07:43Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T04:09:27Z beach: phoe: I read the exchange. It is typical for people to object, and then, even though they are finally impressed by what you tell them, they keep quiet. The overall impression, then, is that almost everybody is unconvinced, which is often depressing. But that typically isn't the case, and from reading between the lines, I think that you converted a few. 2020-07-16T04:09:35Z beach: phoe: So, congratulations again! 2020-07-16T04:12:26Z matijja quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T04:14:03Z matijja joined #lisp 2020-07-16T04:16:18Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-16T04:17:18Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T04:19:21Z vutral joined #lisp 2020-07-16T04:20:18Z marusich joined #lisp 2020-07-16T04:22:37Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-16T04:23:38Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-16T04:28:07Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T04:28:56Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-16T04:29:34Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-16T04:35:21Z satousan joined #lisp 2020-07-16T04:38:00Z OpenZen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T04:39:54Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T04:44:14Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T04:51:18Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T04:57:15Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-07-16T04:58:02Z akoana left #lisp 2020-07-16T04:59:43Z aaaaaa joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:02:06Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:03:50Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:07:50Z hipete joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:08:03Z hipete left #lisp 2020-07-16T05:08:27Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:09:11Z satousan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-07-16T05:10:00Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T05:10:40Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:15:56Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:16:03Z theosvoitha_offl is now known as theosvoitha 2020-07-16T05:21:20Z hlisp joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:23:35Z hlisp quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-16T05:30:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T05:32:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:33:47Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T05:35:30Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:38:39Z alandipert quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2020-07-16T05:38:41Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:39:08Z alandipert joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:39:08Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-16T05:39:57Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:43:03Z sympt__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T05:45:07Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:45:34Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-16T05:46:52Z phoe: beach: I'm very satisfied with that exchange and, based on that text, don't think that almost everyone is unconvinced. If anything, the condition system is simply unknown to many of them and they can't imagine use cases for tools that are foreign to them. 2020-07-16T05:47:29Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:47:32Z phoe: My book has sparked some discussion, though, and that's the important part. And I got a lot of book fixes from these comments even though the book hasn't been released yet. :D 2020-07-16T05:48:20Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:51:40Z Archenoth joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:55:40Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-16T05:57:32Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-16T06:01:31Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-16T06:04:42Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T06:05:17Z beach: phoe: Excellent! 2020-07-16T06:05:25Z sveit: when using the series library, sometimes functions cannot be optimized. that's fine, but the macro's warnings cause SBCL to decide the whole file compile failed, when in reality all that happened was that series was unable to optimize itself away, but the function still produces correct answers. is there a way to get around this? 2020-07-16T06:06:19Z beach: sveit: It may be ASDF that converts a warning to a compilation failure. 2020-07-16T06:06:36Z beach: sveit: There is an ASDF setting to fix that, but I forget the details. 2020-07-16T06:08:15Z sveit: beach: i don't think it's ASDF, since this error happens when I just directly compile the file 2020-07-16T06:08:23Z beach: Hmm, OK. 2020-07-16T06:08:27Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-16T06:08:29Z sveit: (C-c C-k in Emacs) 2020-07-16T06:08:43Z phoe: sveit: it's slime 2020-07-16T06:08:55Z LdBeth joined #lisp 2020-07-16T06:08:58Z phoe: it will say "compilation failed" where in reality it didn't fail 2020-07-16T06:09:08Z LdBeth quit (Changing host) 2020-07-16T06:09:08Z LdBeth joined #lisp 2020-07-16T06:09:20Z phoe: mfiano encountered this just two or three days ago I think 2020-07-16T06:09:22Z sveit: phoe: i think it really does, since none of the other functions from that package exist. 2020-07-16T06:09:36Z phoe: oh, hm 2020-07-16T06:09:37Z sveit: it /is/ true that if you individually compile the functions, the warning is fake 2020-07-16T06:09:49Z sveit: or rather the warning is really, but the compile doesn't actually faile 2020-07-16T06:09:50Z phoe: do you hit Y or N after compiling the file? 2020-07-16T06:09:57Z phoe: when it asks if you want to load the FASL file 2020-07-16T06:10:07Z sveit: it doesn't even ask 2020-07-16T06:10:15Z phoe: weird! 2020-07-16T06:10:16Z sveit: not sure if it matters, but i am using sly 2020-07-16T06:10:22Z phoe: could you provide a test case? 2020-07-16T06:10:29Z phoe: I don't know about sly but I can check it on slime 2020-07-16T06:11:38Z sveit: (defun silly-length (s) (series:collect-length s)) 2020-07-16T06:11:39Z sveit: (defun other-function (x) (+ 7 x)) 2020-07-16T06:11:46Z sveit: just any package containing those two functions 2020-07-16T06:11:52Z sveit: then visit the file, C-c C-k 2020-07-16T06:11:59Z sveit: in a clean session 2020-07-16T06:12:04Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T06:12:05Z LdBeth: let me have a try 2020-07-16T06:12:40Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-16T06:12:48Z phoe: https://i.imgur.com/CXFdkJW.png 2020-07-16T06:12:55Z phoe: the top right buffer is the code 2020-07-16T06:13:03Z phoe: the bottom buffer is the warning 2020-07-16T06:13:18Z phoe: the *very* bottom is where slime asks if I nonetheless want to load the FASL file 2020-07-16T06:13:54Z phoe: I hit Y, and the functions are loaded 2020-07-16T06:13:58Z sveit: phoe: i see, it's not appearing for me, but maybe that is sly or Windows. not a huge deal since in this case i can fix it by suppressing the warnings. 2020-07-16T06:14:02Z phoe: which is the scenario that I described 2020-07-16T06:14:08Z phoe: I'd check if sly behaves the same way 2020-07-16T06:15:39Z sveit: thanks for the quick checks! a related question for people familiar with series: the most common error i get is "Non-series to series data flow from: series-var" where series-var is treated as a series in the entire expression. is there some declaration/way to tell the compiler that some series-var is a series? 2020-07-16T06:15:50Z sveit: (declare (type series:series series-var)) doesn't work 2020-07-16T06:16:09Z LdBeth: seems sly converts warnings to failures 2020-07-16T06:16:09Z LdBeth: i get exact same message pops up as phoe's 2020-07-16T06:16:09Z LdBeth: although I use sly 2020-07-16T06:17:11Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-07-16T06:17:29Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T06:18:12Z seok joined #lisp 2020-07-16T06:20:07Z phoe: compile-time warnings, yes 2020-07-16T06:20:07Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T06:20:54Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T06:22:16Z LdBeth_ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T06:22:18Z LdBeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-16T06:23:19Z LdBeth_: series cannot rely on type declarations, since it is not enforced by CL 2020-07-16T06:24:17Z sveit: LdBeth_: thanks, so is there a way to convince series that a variable will be a series? 2020-07-16T06:25:35Z LdBeth_: the only way is having the operation on the series determined at compile time 2020-07-16T06:26:35Z LdBeth_: i.e you cannot expect to pass a series operation as an argument on run time 2020-07-16T06:27:42Z sveit: LdBeth_: but what if i am ok with "failure"? i.e. i am ok with an error if the argument to "(defun silly-length (s) (series:collect-length s))" is not a series, but i would like to at least get rid of the warnings by promising that s must be a series 2020-07-16T06:28:02Z sveit: in this case the operation on the series is indeed determined at compile time, right 2020-07-16T06:28:03Z sveit: ? 2020-07-16T06:28:56Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-16T06:32:06Z LdBeth joined #lisp 2020-07-16T06:32:06Z LdBeth quit (Changing host) 2020-07-16T06:32:06Z LdBeth joined #lisp 2020-07-16T06:32:43Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-16T06:32:54Z LdBeth_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T06:33:38Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T06:34:20Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2020-07-16T06:35:39Z vutral quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-16T06:36:29Z LdBeth: sveit: i see, it because the series 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No swank server possible. 2020-07-16T10:40:20Z flip214: other images (different HTTP requests served, different business logic) with the same infrastructure works normally. 2020-07-16T10:40:27Z flip214: rebuilding this image doesn't help. 2020-07-16T10:44:22Z RukiSama_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T10:44:32Z RukiSama joined #lisp 2020-07-16T10:48:11Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T10:48:20Z phoe: Ctrl+C doesn't spawn some sort of SBCL debugger? 2020-07-16T10:48:39Z phoe: this would mean that it's in sb-sys:without-interrupts 2020-07-16T10:48:58Z phoe: and that would need attaching an external debugger to figure out what's going on. 2020-07-16T10:49:09Z phoe: oh wait, it works normally when you trace, but hangs if you don't trace them? 2020-07-16T10:50:21Z flip214: thanks, solved 2020-07-16T10:50:32Z phoe: huh! how? what was the issue? 2020-07-16T10:50:35Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T10:50:57Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-07-16T10:51:02Z flip214: SIGUSR2 was bound by a thread for toggling debug logs on/off, but that's used by sbcl internally 2020-07-16T10:51:07Z farooqkz__ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T10:51:12Z phoe: ha! 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2020-07-16T13:44:58Z brown121407 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T13:45:20Z Ankhers quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.0 - https://znc.in) 2020-07-16T13:45:34Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-07-16T13:45:51Z Ankhers joined #lisp 2020-07-16T13:50:26Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T13:51:24Z brown121407 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T13:53:20Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-16T13:53:44Z phoe: Online Lisp Meeting #5 announced: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/hsa0m2/ 2020-07-16T13:56:07Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-16T13:56:09Z vornth joined #lisp 2020-07-16T13:56:11Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-16T13:56:36Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-16T13:56:47Z beach: So it's on Wednesday? 2020-07-16T13:56:57Z phoe: This time, yes - Wednesday 2020-07-16T13:57:02Z jebes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T13:57:05Z beach: OK. 2020-07-16T13:57:08Z beach: No problem for me. 2020-07-16T13:57:12Z phoe: whew 2020-07-16T13:57:21Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-16T13:57:27Z phoe: sorry about that - I have been way too distracted with book stuff + dayjob stuff 2020-07-16T13:57:36Z beach: I fully understand. 2020-07-16T13:57:49Z beach: Does that mean I have a day or two more to finish the presentation and record it? 2020-07-16T13:57:56Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-07-16T13:58:00Z beach: Not that I absolutely need that, but it wouldn't hurt. 2020-07-16T13:58:02Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T13:59:18Z beach: I guess I'll still try to finish it tomorrow, but maybe in the afternoon instead of in the morning. 2020-07-16T13:59:53Z phoe: beach: yes, sure! as long as I get it on Tuesday or something 2020-07-16T14:00:03Z beach: Excellent, thanks! 2020-07-16T14:10:35Z tristero joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:14:02Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:14:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-16T14:19:06Z jebes joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:20:12Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:21:55Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:22:11Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T14:23:01Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:24:50Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:26:59Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:28:57Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T14:29:16Z frgo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T14:29:26Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:31:42Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-16T14:32:28Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:33:30Z rgherdt_ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:38:56Z theosvoitha: Hello When i try to first run Portacle in Windows 7, i encounter following error: https://bpa.st/2DPQ 2020-07-16T14:39:45Z phoe: theosvoitha: try typing BACKTRACE in there and hitting Enter 2020-07-16T14:39:49Z phoe: that should provide us with more information 2020-07-16T14:39:56Z jasom: that looks bad 2020-07-16T14:41:40Z theosvoitha: There isn't any space to type my command. this is being shown there: "Polling "C:/users/lenovo/appdata/temp/slimne.6408 ... 1132 (Abort with 'M-x slime-abort-connection) 2020-07-16T14:41:59Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:42:13Z phoe: there should be - you should be able to type in the inferior lisp buffer 2020-07-16T14:42:21Z phoe: click on that buffer and type stuff in 2020-07-16T14:42:33Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T14:43:06Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:43:23Z jasom: phoe: there's multiple warnings inside swank early on, that can't be normal, right? 2020-07-16T14:44:03Z phoe: jasom: they seem OK enough for me, nothing too suspicious. 2020-07-16T14:44:30Z theosvoitha: in 'inferior-lisp' buffer, this is being going on continuously 2020-07-16T14:44:34Z theosvoitha: Polling "C:/users/lenovo/appdata/temp/slimne.6408 ... 1132 (Abort with 'M-x slime-abort-connection) 2020-07-16T14:44:53Z theosvoitha: and the counting keeps increasing every second and am not able to type there 2020-07-16T14:44:54Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T14:44:56Z brown121407 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T14:46:27Z theosvoitha: I type 'b' alphabet of "backstrace". Instantly it says 'b' is undefined and replaces that line again with Polling "C:/users/lenovo/appdata/temp/slimne.6408 ... 1132 (Abort with 'M-x slime-abort-connection) 2020-07-16T14:46:35Z jasom: theosvoitha: do you have a firewall of some sort running? 2020-07-16T14:46:51Z phoe: huh 2020-07-16T14:46:52Z theosvoitha: jasom: yes. Kaspersky. 2020-07-16T14:46:57Z phoe: weird stuff 2020-07-16T14:47:41Z jasom: it might be preventing slime from opening a socket for communication? 2020-07-16T14:47:57Z theosvoitha: let me disable it and try. 2020-07-16T14:52:40Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:53:22Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:55:56Z Blukunfando quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:56Z flazh quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:56Z vornth quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:56Z gravicappa quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:56Z Khisanth quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:56Z gko quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:56Z whiteline quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:57Z X-Scale quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:57Z thecoffemaker quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:57Z ski quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:57Z zaquest quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:57Z penguwin quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:57Z oldtopman quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:57Z arbv quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:57Z kbtr_ quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:57Z Robdgreat quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:57Z cdegroot quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:57Z kingcons quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:57Z mood quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:55:57Z wigust quit (*.net *.split) 2020-07-16T14:56:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T14:57:11Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:20Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z vornth joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z gko joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z ski joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z penguwin joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z oldtopman joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z Robdgreat joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z kingcons joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z kbtr_ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z cdegroot joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z mood joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:25Z wigust joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:57:40Z vornth quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-07-16T14:58:04Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T14:58:04Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-16T14:58:06Z vornth joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:58:25Z hhdave joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:58:32Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:59:05Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-16T14:59:34Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T14:59:44Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-16T14:59:53Z Xach: scymtym: i don't know of one 2020-07-16T15:00:11Z Xach: scymtym: i started working on a postscript interpreter, hoping to maybe support them, but it has fallen by the wayside 2020-07-16T15:01:40Z xsperry quit (Quit: http://www.okay.uz/ (Session timeout)) 2020-07-16T15:02:39Z jebes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T15:05:24Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:06:02Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-16T15:06:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:07:33Z beach: And such a thing would be fantastic for music fonts, because the (to my knowledge) only free font for music that conforms to the new standard is in that format. 2020-07-16T15:08:10Z beach: So that font is going to be a must for Clovetree. 2020-07-16T15:10:19Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-16T15:10:33Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:10:39Z xrash joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:11:27Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:14:25Z jebes joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:15:47Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T15:17:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:21:29Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:21:47Z Xach: PostScript is so nice and regular and simple 2020-07-16T15:21:57Z Xach: Maybe some student could be tricked into doing it 2020-07-16T15:23:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T15:24:00Z jasom: theosvoitha: any luck? 2020-07-16T15:24:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:26:20Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-16T15:26:47Z stepnem joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:27:05Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-16T15:27:20Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:28:46Z mfiano: Hello! 2020-07-16T15:29:21Z theosvoitha: jasom: No. I disabled Firewall completely, unzipped Portacle again and attempted but same issue. 2020-07-16T15:29:30Z mfiano: Would anyone good at making sense out of noisy C++ help me port to Lisp a very simple container data structure? The lightning talk that presents it is very lacking in details, and the code is very painful for me to read. It was recommended to me to ask here after failing for two days. :) 2020-07-16T15:29:36Z theosvoitha: shall i try the developer channel 2020-07-16T15:29:47Z jasom: theosvoitha: sure, or you can file an issue on github. 2020-07-16T15:29:57Z jasom: I don't have a windows VM handy 2020-07-16T15:30:05Z jasom: s/windows/windows 7/ 2020-07-16T15:30:09Z theosvoitha: jasom: Okay. Thanks 2020-07-16T15:31:04Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T15:33:40Z nirved: theosvoitha: if nothing else helps you might try an older release of portacle, sbcl 2.0 might not play well with windows 7. https://github.com/portacle/portacle/releases/ 2020-07-16T15:35:04Z beach: Xach: Not any of mine. 2020-07-16T15:35:35Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:37:03Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:37:06Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-16T15:38:18Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:41:19Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-16T15:41:31Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:42:46Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:45:57Z karayan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T15:48:24Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-16T15:48:30Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T15:48:45Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:48:52Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:48:52Z orivej_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-16T15:48:57Z OpenZen joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:50:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-16T15:51:24Z scymtym: beach: Xach: thank you. so i'm probably not wasting my time exploring this a bit 2020-07-16T15:51:52Z beach: Not at all. On the contrary. 2020-07-16T15:52:20Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T16:01:02Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-16T16:02:22Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-16T16:03:34Z theosvoitha is now known as jonathansc 2020-07-16T16:04:57Z Lycurgus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T16:05:16Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-16T16:06:26Z rgherdt_ is now known as rgherdt 2020-07-16T16:12:14Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-16T16:12:50Z jonathansc: Few others have reported same problem: 2020-07-16T16:12:52Z jonathansc: https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/sbcl-help/thread/84r3zoet5v.fsf%40gmail.com/#msg32803015 2020-07-16T16:12:53Z jonathansc: https://www.coder.work/article/2071695 2020-07-16T16:16:42Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T16:16:45Z jonathansc is now known as theosvoitha 2020-07-16T16:16:54Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T16:18:00Z theosvoitha: Am trying to read "Practical Common Lisp" 2020-07-16T16:18:20Z theosvoitha: please suggest CL Implementation to follow it for windows. 2020-07-16T16:20:48Z theosvoitha: Book seem to suggest 'Lisp in a box' but it seems pretty old software 2020-07-16T16:22:32Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T16:23:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-16T16:23:07Z aeth: theosvoitha: The most popular equivalent these days is probably portacle: https://portacle.github.io/ 2020-07-16T16:23:08Z tychoish: I think SBCL works on windows. 2020-07-16T16:23:17Z tychoish: but I don't actually windows 2020-07-16T16:23:38Z gaqwas: theosvoitha, I second Portacle 2020-07-16T16:23:38Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T16:23:53Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-16T16:24:00Z clothespin_: i use sbcl on windows 2020-07-16T16:24:17Z aeth: tychoish: iirc, SBCL works on Windows but it gives a warning that some features might not work, but everything works... although that could have been removed years ago (which still would've been like 5+ years later than it should have been) 2020-07-16T16:24:54Z aeth: The download tends to be an older version (and it is, it's 2.0.0), but afaik you could use it to bootstrap the latest off of git. http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html 2020-07-16T16:25:06Z theosvoitha: aeth: thanks couldn't get Portacle working on windows 2020-07-16T16:25:15Z tychoish: portacle looks like it includes emacs+sbcl and all of the glue that you need. if you already have emacs, then getting the emacs bits are easy enough but seems a bit personal :) 2020-07-16T16:25:38Z aeth: An alternative is Roswell, which is kind of an alternative to the official installer for every implementation, but I don't think that it comes with Emacs. https://github.com/roswell/roswell 2020-07-16T16:26:05Z theosvoitha: clothespin_: thanks sbcl i will try. 2020-07-16T16:26:11Z theosvoitha: thanks aeth. 2020-07-16T16:26:12Z aeth: (Roswell is much harder to use than Portacle ime.) 2020-07-16T16:29:19Z rogersm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T16:29:22Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2020-07-16T16:29:27Z aeth: You could also try installing a Linux version under WSL, but then you miss out on the graphical/fun stuff like https://borodust.org/projects/trivial-gamekit/ or https://github.com/vydd/sketch/ and so on. 2020-07-16T16:30:06Z theosvoitha: aeth: i am using win 7. i guess i need VM instead. 2020-07-16T16:30:32Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T16:30:33Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-16T16:31:42Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-16T16:34:24Z eddof13 joined #lisp 2020-07-16T16:35:48Z jackdaniel: Xach: congrats 2020-07-16T16:35:59Z jackdaniel: (for the new dist release) 2020-07-16T16:40:32Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-16T16:41:06Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-16T16:42:33Z Xach: thanks 2020-07-16T16:42:51Z Xach: i have also taken delivery of a very heavy old rack mount server which i hope to use to build quicklisp more quickly 2020-07-16T16:42:51Z nirved: sbcl-2.0.0 with emacs-25.1.1 on windows 8.1 works for me; also working are clisp-2.49 and ccl-1.11.5 (64bit); all of them installed at paths without spaces - C:/sbcl C:/clisp C:/ccl C:/emacs 2020-07-16T16:43:50Z aeth: If you're new to Lisp, you probably don't want to use clisp unless you compile from source because it hasn't had a release in about a decade even though it's still under development. 2020-07-16T16:44:45Z aeth: Oh, we just missed the 10 year birthday of the current stable version of CLISP... It was released 2010-07-07. https://clisp.sourceforge.io/ 2020-07-16T16:45:32Z theosvoitha: As Windows 7 is not fit for Portacle or others am trying Virtual Machine. Please suggest if "Gentoo" Linux has proper Common Lisps softwares ported. 2020-07-16T16:46:41Z tychoish: Xach: what's the build time now? 2020-07-16T16:47:55Z aeth: SBCL should be in the repositories of every major distro. The others will be hit-or-miss, but Fedora (which I use) also has ECL and CLISP. Iirc, though, Gentoo is a compile-everything (instead of shipping binary executables) distro, so using Gentoo to avoid compiling a Lisp implementation sounds self-defeating. 2020-07-16T16:49:56Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Quit: Пока, мир.) 2020-07-16T16:50:16Z nirved: theosvoitha: dev-lisp/sbcl is at 2.0.5 (testing), dev-lisp/clozurecl is at 1.11.5 (stable) 2020-07-16T16:50:36Z theosvoitha: thanks aeth. any *BSD you suggest? Am practising OpenBSD to help in some open source word. 2020-07-16T16:50:45Z aeth: Lisp implementations are sort of incompatible with this approach because they usually require a Lisp implementation. e.g. SBCL needs to be compiled from SBCL or a handful of approved implementations. This is called 'bootstrapping' an implementation. So bootstrapping the SBCL compiler from scratch (instead of another version of SBCL) usually requires compiling the CLISP interpreter first. 2020-07-16T16:51:06Z aeth: I think this "ports" approach is used by Gentoo and all BSDs. 2020-07-16T16:51:07Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2020-07-16T16:51:18Z aeth: (And a Mac OS X package manager) 2020-07-16T16:51:40Z theosvoitha: nirved: ok thanks 2020-07-16T16:52:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T16:52:24Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T16:52:25Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-16T16:52:57Z theosvoitha: okay thanks aeth. Fedora i will try to run in my VM. 2020-07-16T16:53:08Z nirved: theosvoitha: gentoo used to require hours of compilation and configuration, might be faster on modern machines 2020-07-16T16:53:21Z cranes joined #lisp 2020-07-16T16:54:04Z theosvoitha: nirved: but ask aeth suggest it is not fit for Lisp implementations 2020-07-16T16:54:43Z aeth: Well, it just will take much longer to compile. 2020-07-16T16:55:17Z theosvoitha: aeth: it actually does. 2020-07-16T16:55:36Z aeth: To compile SBCL on Fedora/etc., you download the SBCL from Fedora, which will be about 6-24 months out of date (ideally 6, since Fedora releases every 6 months)... but you probably don't need the absolute latest version. 2020-07-16T16:56:25Z aeth: Afaik (I would need to setup VirtualBox or something to test), Gentoo would require a full bootstrapping of SBCL, probably from CLISP. 2020-07-16T16:56:36Z theosvoitha: aeth: yes i don't need. as i said i just need to practice 'Practical Common Lisp" book examples 2020-07-16T16:57:27Z nirved: aeth: gentoo downloads a binary of a previous version, and uses it to compile the current one 2020-07-16T16:57:44Z aeth: nirved: ah, interesting, so they kind of have to sacrifice their philosophy there 2020-07-16T16:59:28Z nirved: aeth: well, it downloads the necessary compiler 2020-07-16T16:59:34Z aeth: nirved: thanks for the input, I've been reading their docs and I couldn't find any indication of that 2020-07-16T17:01:34Z nirved: aeth: it's in the ebuild, downloads the binary available from sf.net 2020-07-16T17:01:40Z lottaquestions: Hi all, if I wanted to trace a lambda, how would I do it? trace rejects raw lambdas as input with the error "xyz is not a function name, not tracing" 2020-07-16T17:04:29Z nirved: maybe wrap it in a lambda which prints something first 2020-07-16T17:04:42Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:04:42Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-07-16T17:06:04Z lottaquestions: @nirved: Would you show what you mean with a simple example? 2020-07-16T17:06:19Z Josh_2: Hi 2020-07-16T17:07:57Z jebes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T17:09:49Z nirved: something like this: (lambda (&rest args) (format t "~&entering~%") (apply (lambda ...) args) (format t "~&exiting~%")) 2020-07-16T17:10:42Z lottaquestions: Thanks. let me try that 2020-07-16T17:11:16Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T17:11:32Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:11:36Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:17:23Z nirved: lottaquestions: oh, it should be (... (prog1 (apply (lambda ...) args) (format t "~&exiting~%"))) 2020-07-16T17:21:07Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T17:22:25Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:22:57Z flazh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T17:23:43Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:24:36Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T17:26:15Z jasom: theosvoitha: FWIW I tried portacle on Win 10 and Win 8 and they both worked, but like I said I don't have a win 7 install. 2020-07-16T17:27:52Z DGASAU: minion: memo for seok: modern "traditional" DBMSes create indices for all columns with sufficient constraints upfront, plus they typically gather statistics on queries and adapt query execution plans accordingly. This alone typically makes SQL-based applications (in long-run use case) perform significantly better than those with manual in-memory joins and manual performance tweaks. 2020-07-16T17:27:52Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell seok when he/she/it next speaks. 2020-07-16T17:29:47Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:29:49Z DGASAU: minion: also, for the reference, there was a paper from Google that summarized all their story behind "no-SQL" movement, when after more than 5 years pushing for "no SQL for performance" they admitted that in reality this doesn't actually pay off. 2020-07-16T17:29:50Z minion: also, for the reference, there was a paper from Google that summarized all their story behind "no-SQL" movement, when after more than 5 years pushing for "no SQL for performance" they admitted that in reality this doesn't actually pay off: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/also%2C%20for%20the%20reference%2C%20there%20was%20a%20paper%20from%20Google%20that%20summarized%20all%20their%20story%20behind%20\"no-SQL\"%20movem 2020-07-16T17:30:07Z DGASAU: minion: memo for seok: also, for the reference, there was a paper from Google that summarized all their story behind "no-SQL" movement, when after more than 5 years pushing for "no SQL for performance" they admitted that in reality this doesn't actually pay off. 2020-07-16T17:30:07Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell seok when he/she/it next speaks. 2020-07-16T17:31:07Z DGASAU: (Sorry, I don't have the reference anymore. I only remember being surprised of the fact itself when I read it about 2012-14.) 2020-07-16T17:31:18Z jasom: actually, I just rememberd a win7 pro box I have; latest portacle runs on it fine. 2020-07-16T17:32:37Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-16T17:33:58Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:34:04Z _death: jasom: I just tried the latest portacle on a win7 vm.. (it works) 2020-07-16T17:34:18Z jasom: _death: and I tried it on actual hardware 2020-07-16T17:34:52Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T17:35:17Z devrtz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T17:35:40Z _death: jasom: the person with the issue did not yet follow on the instructions given 2020-07-16T17:37:42Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-07-16T17:38:04Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:38:32Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:39:23Z devrtz joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:42:11Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-16T17:42:34Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:42:35Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T17:43:35Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:51:13Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-16T17:51:13Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:53:53Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T17:53:59Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:56:38Z xrash joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:57:31Z aeth: Well, this is somewhat annoying. The testing library parachute partially respects *print-case* as downcase. The test name will be downcased, but the package name will remain the true, upcased name. i.e. FOO::test 2020-07-16T17:57:37Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-07-16T17:58:40Z satousan joined #lisp 2020-07-16T18:01:08Z aeth: this is sort of the worst of the four possible ways *print-case* could be respected here (both, one of either, or neither) since the package name is the less important part of the name 2020-07-16T18:08:11Z phoe: aeth: oh 2020-07-16T18:08:24Z phoe: could you give me an example? 2020-07-16T18:08:36Z flazh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T18:09:06Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-07-16T18:10:20Z aeth: phoe: an example of what? 2020-07-16T18:10:46Z phoe: the print-case thing 2020-07-16T18:11:57Z aeth: in https://github.com/Shinmera/parachute the example is e.g. PARACHUTE::NUMBERS 2020-07-16T18:11:58Z phoe: you mean when printing the report? 2020-07-16T18:12:05Z aeth: with *print-case* :downcase it would be PARACHUTE::numbers 2020-07-16T18:12:22Z gravicappa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T18:12:48Z aeth: I usually *print-case* :downcase before testing or macroexpanding because it gives more human-readable names at the expense of not giving a completely accurate picture since "foo" could be |foo| or FOO. 2020-07-16T18:12:48Z phoe: ooooh, yes, I see 2020-07-16T18:13:56Z phoe: let me figure out where in parachute this needs to get fixed 2020-07-16T18:14:00Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T18:14:22Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-16T18:14:28Z scymtym: beach: Xach: the spec is pretty confusing but simple things are starting to work: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/type-2-interpreter.png 2020-07-16T18:14:55Z aeth: phoe: My guess would be somewhere around https://github.com/Shinmera/parachute/blob/a9fdae87abf3c5070d77a68c5a7c967da686f556/result.lisp#L244 2020-07-16T18:15:16Z aeth: (There are several FORMAT-RESULTs in that file) 2020-07-16T18:15:51Z borodust: aeth theosvoitha: just in case, trivial-gamekit should work on native SBCL for Windows too (WSL is not needed) 2020-07-16T18:16:11Z phoe: aeth: correct 2020-07-16T18:16:33Z aeth: borodust: Yes, sorry, I was unclear, I was giving it as an example of something that probably wouldn't work under WSL 2020-07-16T18:16:34Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T18:17:48Z borodust: true, it would ask for X server to be present, but i'm unsure anyone tried WSL+X+gamekit at all 2020-07-16T18:18:10Z phoe: aeth: https://github.com/Shinmera/parachute/issues/21 2020-07-16T18:18:26Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-16T18:18:42Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T18:18:52Z aeth: phoe: what's weird is a string name isn't downcased, either, e.g. "Test" shows up as FOO::Test 2020-07-16T18:19:06Z aeth: But strings probably shouldn't be downcased, unlike symbols, because case preservation is probably always the intended result. 2020-07-16T18:19:20Z borodust: theosvoitha: phoe already mentioned it, Atom+SLIMA worked for me too (I set it up fairly easily just test things out) 2020-07-16T18:19:55Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-16T18:23:52Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-16T18:24:48Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-16T18:29:03Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T18:29:22Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-16T18:30:10Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-16T18:30:37Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T18:31:51Z xristos: scymtym: is that mcclim? 2020-07-16T18:32:47Z satousan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-07-16T18:33:46Z satousan joined #lisp 2020-07-16T18:34:52Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-16T18:39:30Z Sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T18:41:15Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-16T18:42:07Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T18:46:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T18:46:04Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-07-16T18:50:27Z madage joined #lisp 2020-07-16T18:51:08Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T18:51:14Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-07-16T18:51:22Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-16T18:57:58Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T19:01:42Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T19:01:42Z satousan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-07-16T19:01:47Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T19:01:57Z frgo quit 2020-07-16T19:02:13Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:05:59Z scymtym: xristos: the debug visualization on the right side is. the left side is fontforge 2020-07-16T19:06:15Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-16T19:06:42Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T19:07:49Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:08:35Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:14:27Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:16:49Z sjl_: What's the correct/idiomatic way to intercept the initargs to a metaclass to process them? Normally I'd do this kind of thing by defining a constructor function make-whatever, but since this is a metaclass I don't think I can make defclass call a constructor. 2020-07-16T19:16:57Z sjl_: I have a metaclass MC with a slot FOO (whose initarg is :FOO). I want users to be able to say (defclass x () () (:metaclass mc) (:foo symb)) and have the slot FOO of the class set to SYMB. 2020-07-16T19:17:02Z sjl_: If I don't do anything special, then the FOO slot gets set to a list (SOMETHING) instead of just SOMETHING, because defclass supports class options with multiple things in the list, e.g. (:foo a b c), so the actual initarg that gets passed to (make-instance 'mc ...) is :foo (SOMETHING). 2020-07-16T19:17:16Z sjl_: In my particular case, I don't want that. I want to ensure they either provide a single symbol or nothing. Overriding shared-initialize and hacking the initargs to call-next-method seems to work, but I'm wondering if there's a cleaner way. 2020-07-16T19:17:22Z sjl_: Example: https://paste.stevelosh.com/3f9550acb99b0b7cf576f3708c22efc0312754de 2020-07-16T19:20:33Z Bike: i don't know of any cleaner way. clasp (inheriting from ecl) actually does that internally for the slots: https://github.com/clasp-developers/clasp/blob/master/src/lisp/kernel/clos/standard.lsp#L229-L233 2020-07-16T19:20:41Z Bike: at least i think this is from ecl 2020-07-16T19:21:28Z sjl_: Interesting. Okay, at least I'm not completely off base with this approach. Thanks. 2020-07-16T19:22:17Z karlosz_ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:22:42Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-07-16T19:22:48Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T19:22:51Z karlosz_ is now known as karlosz 2020-07-16T19:23:24Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:25:55Z phoe: sjl_: second 2020-07-16T19:26:06Z phoe: https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/netfarm/-/blob/master/Code/Objects/MOP/netfarm-class.lisp#L89 2020-07-16T19:26:17Z phoe: Gnuxie[m] was just talking about this case on #lispcafe 2020-07-16T19:26:24Z phoe: and no-defun-allowed 2020-07-16T19:26:29Z phoe: and the above thing seems to work 2020-07-16T19:26:42Z sjl_: I'm... not sure how that relates to my question? 2020-07-16T19:27:03Z phoe: oh wait, you want to just intercept them, not modify them 2020-07-16T19:27:07Z sjl_: Oh, are you talking about the line further down? 2020-07-16T19:27:11Z phoe: yes 2020-07-16T19:27:12Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-16T19:27:37Z phoe: the defmethod at L95 plays with :direct-superclasses by calling patch-object-into-superclasses 2020-07-16T19:27:38Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:27:46Z sjl_: Ah, yes. That looks similar to what Bike linked, and is basically the same approach in my example, right? 2020-07-16T19:27:48Z phoe: I assumed this is the kind of interception you are talking about 2020-07-16T19:27:55Z phoe clicks Bike link 2020-07-16T19:28:09Z sjl_: Override the initialization method, patch the args to call-next-method 2020-07-16T19:28:35Z phoe: the only difference I see there is between a primary method and an around method, but that's effectively the same thing 2020-07-16T19:28:45Z sjl_: I forgot you could do both &rest and &key to avoid the boilerplate getf though, that's nice 2020-07-16T19:29:24Z phoe: yes, I use this extensively 2020-07-16T19:29:41Z phoe: in particular, `&rest args &key foo &allow-other-keys` is amazing 2020-07-16T19:30:26Z phoe: if your generic function accepts e.g. `&key foo bar baz quux fred` then the above effectively grabs `&key foo` and still allows you to `(apply #'call-next-method ... args)` 2020-07-16T19:32:11Z sjl_: Right, so something like https://paste.stevelosh.com/8e40f867cdc53060ed389bf2d7c93551363f23fc 2020-07-16T19:32:50Z phoe: I think so, yes 2020-07-16T19:32:57Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:33:06Z sjl_: But yeah, I was mostly just wondering about the overall approach. Sounds like overriding shared-initialize or initialize-instance and prepending the fixed version is a reasonable approach. 2020-07-16T19:33:12Z sjl_: Thanks 2020-07-16T19:33:14Z phoe: that's what I do myself 2020-07-16T19:33:25Z phoe: also forgive me the off-topic, but this gem just landed on one of my mailgroups 2020-07-16T19:33:31Z phoe: "We’re working to get Interlisp-D / Medley / Xerox Common Lisp released (with permissive licenses); see https://docs.google.com/document/d/17LkdOmdRtuZmvxS4flAf14Kl7oWmVTuimtyRSebxk4M/edit?usp=sharing for status and plans." 2020-07-16T19:33:48Z phoe: (well, it's not really off-topic, since it says Xerox Common Lisp!) 2020-07-16T19:35:54Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:39:02Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T19:39:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:39:44Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-16T19:40:26Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T19:41:23Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T19:41:49Z karayan joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:42:04Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:42:18Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T19:42:19Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:43:37Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T19:44:57Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2020-07-16T19:45:24Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:52:39Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:53:56Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-16T19:54:17Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:54:48Z jmercouris: well well 2020-07-16T19:54:57Z jmercouris: I didn’t even know Xerox had an implementation! 2020-07-16T19:55:03Z jmercouris: It doesn’t surprise me though 2020-07-16T19:56:07Z TwoNotes joined #lisp 2020-07-16T19:57:56Z gioyik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-16T19:59:46Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-16T20:02:54Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-07-16T20:03:35Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-16T20:05:18Z jackdaniel: since they are going to opensource it, and interlisp is one of cl ancestors, I don't think it is much on the offtopic side, rather it is ontopic 2020-07-16T20:05:21Z jackdaniel: thanks for sharing 2020-07-16T20:05:23Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T20:06:52Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-16T20:07:41Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T20:08:49Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-07-16T20:08:58Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-16T20:12:27Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2020-07-16T20:14:52Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T20:18:11Z zigpaw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T20:25:10Z karlosz_ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T20:26:34Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T20:26:34Z karlosz_ is now known as karlosz 2020-07-16T20:28:59Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T20:29:07Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T20:30:47Z zigpaw joined #lisp 2020-07-16T20:31:27Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-16T20:31:49Z aeth: I wonder if there's a way to use a condition at the end of parachute:test so I can exit the process on failure, for CI. asdf:test-system always returns T iirc, which makes its return value useless, but I don't want to directly call parachute:test if I can avoid it. 2020-07-16T20:36:44Z jasom: phoe: is CLtL1 common lisp on-topic? I think the Xerox CL is pre-ANSI. 2020-07-16T20:38:51Z jackdaniel: I'm sure it would be more offtopic had we been discussing merits of interlisp or how to make something work on cltl1; 2020-07-16T20:41:23Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-16T20:41:50Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-16T20:45:19Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T20:46:21Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-16T20:46:29Z phoe: jasom: I honestly have no idea 2020-07-16T20:47:10Z phoe: aeth: parachute:test returns a meaningful value, you can inspect it for any failed test results 2020-07-16T20:47:40Z phoe: otherwise, you can do that in ASDF:TEST-SYSTEM - call parachute:test, inspect the returned value, signal an error if any failed results are there 2020-07-16T20:54:09Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2020-07-16T20:57:12Z xuxuru quit (Quit: xuxuru) 2020-07-16T20:57:27Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-16T21:10:01Z phoe: beach: scymtym: Eclector gets a honorable mention in my book for being programmable using restarts/handlers. Thank you for it! 2020-07-16T21:12:04Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-16T21:14:04Z phoe: minion: memo for pfdietz: thank you for mentioning the foo:bar reader issue on HN. I've added a chapter to my book that refers to it. 2020-07-16T21:14:04Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pfdietz when he/she/it next speaks. 2020-07-16T21:17:10Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-16T21:19:01Z nabataeus joined #lisp 2020-07-16T21:19:13Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-16T21:19:21Z tutti joined #lisp 2020-07-16T21:21:21Z phoe: minion: memo for pfdietz: I will also allow myself to include parts of your comment in the book text and to include your name in the book's Hall of Fame. 2020-07-16T21:21:21Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pfdietz when he/she/it next speaks. 2020-07-16T21:22:22Z aeth: phoe: yeah, but ASDF testops seem to ignore meaningful values, thus requiring some degree of spaghetti 2020-07-16T21:22:33Z aeth: I guess I'll just not use asdf:test-system for the moment 2020-07-16T21:23:01Z phoe: aeth: the "consensus" seems to be that the tests should signal an error in case of failure. 2020-07-16T21:23:11Z phoe: and everything else is a pass. 2020-07-16T21:29:14Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-07-16T21:29:26Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T21:38:15Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-16T21:39:11Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-16T21:39:43Z aeth: phoe: but the annoying part is that none is provided 2020-07-16T21:40:27Z aeth: Hmm... 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I'm fairly familiar with emacs as my daily driver. Slime starts with no problem but after installing the sly package emacs doesn't seem to recognize it at all. M-x sly (sly doesn't exist even though i've installed and deleted, reinstalled several times) 2020-07-17T03:18:44Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T03:26:04Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2020-07-17T03:26:49Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-07-17T03:27:45Z v3ga: hola 2020-07-17T03:30:16Z loke: v3ga: No. I never understood why anyone would use sly (which has less features than SLIME) 2020-07-17T03:32:15Z v3ga: loke: oh? i read that it had more. if I can ignore just stick with slime then that's fine 2020-07-17T03:35:46Z v3ga: ok, well that solves that 2020-07-17T03:36:51Z beach: scymtym: Wow, nice work with type 2 fonts! 2020-07-17T03:36:54Z beach: phoe: Eclector is more the work of scymtym these days. 2020-07-17T03:40:16Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T03:40:49Z luis joined #lisp 2020-07-17T03:43:06Z nabataeus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T03:43:19Z nabataeus joined #lisp 2020-07-17T03:46:12Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-17T03:51:22Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-07-17T03:53:51Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T03:54:58Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-17T04:12:14Z loke: v3ga: The main missing feature of Sly is that it doesn't support presentations. That's crazy to me, as it's one of th emost useful features of SLIME. 2020-07-17T04:22:16Z v3ga: loke: hmm, well slime it is. I'd actually never heard of Sly until a few days ago and in my readings they were making it sound like it was SLIME with additional features. 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This alone typically makes SQL-based applications (in long-run use case) perform significantly better than those with manual in-memory joins and manual performance tweaks. 2020-07-17T06:35:57Z minion: seok, memo from DGASAU: also, for the reference, there was a paper from Google that summarized all their story behind "no-SQL" movement, when after more than 5 years pushing for "no SQL for performance" they admitted that in reality this doesn't actually pay off. 2020-07-17T06:36:37Z flip214: seok: there's already cl-ppcre for Perl-compatible regular expressions. and reading files is also easy... 2020-07-17T06:37:06Z seok: how would that scale for large datasets tho? 2020-07-17T06:37:54Z seok: @dgasau thanks! this helps a lot 2020-07-17T06:39:55Z flip214: seok: It's O(n) anyway... unless you're asking about creating an index for repeated querying, then I'd look at PgSQL first 2020-07-17T06:40:29Z seok: yeah I guess pg would have better solution than O(n) 2020-07-17T06:40:33Z seok: thx 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2020-07-17T08:44:47Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-17T08:46:18Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T08:46:35Z contrapunctus: How difficult would it be for someone to write cross-platform MIDI bindings for CL, if they have no knowledge of MIDI or C? 🤔 2020-07-17T08:48:11Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-17T08:48:40Z flip214: which midi bindings? 2020-07-17T08:48:54Z flip214: parsing midi files? I did that ~10 years ago or so 2020-07-17T08:50:08Z phoe: doesn't such a thing already exist somewhere? 2020-07-17T08:50:58Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-07-17T08:53:10Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T09:00:34Z contrapunctus: flip214: MIDI playback 2020-07-17T09:00:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T09:01:05Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:01:20Z reggie_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-17T09:01:24Z contrapunctus: phoe: I didn't see anything on awesome-cl, but ISTR being surprised to see that RtMIDI had CL bindings too. 2020-07-17T09:02:15Z flip214: isn't MIDI playback (to hardware) just pushing to a serial port? 2020-07-17T09:02:29Z flip214: or locally running a program to render the sounds 2020-07-17T09:02:41Z flip214: I guess I just don't understand what you want to achieve 2020-07-17T09:03:31Z contrapunctus: Send MIDI to (software or hardware) samplers/recorders etc. 2020-07-17T09:05:32Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-17T09:05:35Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:05:41Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-17T09:05:41Z reggie_ joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:06:11Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:07:18Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T09:09:08Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:10:35Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:12:53Z beach: contrapunctus: MIDI playback is trivial as flip214 points out. 2020-07-17T09:13:27Z beach: contrapunctus: I think you should start such a suite of programs. 2020-07-17T09:13:37Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T09:13:45Z beach: contrapunctus: Are you planning to create a GUI as well for some parts of it? 2020-07-17T09:14:16Z beach: contrapunctus: If so, I recommend using McCLIM. 2020-07-17T09:14:59Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T09:16:38Z contrapunctus: beach, flip214: does 'just pushing to a serial port' also work for sending MIDI to software? 2020-07-17T09:17:18Z contrapunctus: beach: yeah, I want to make a GUI...and I'm interested in McCLIM 🙂 2020-07-17T09:18:22Z beach: It depends on how the software wants the MIDI events. Since MIDI is real-time, there is no information about on/off times, so software must add that. MIDIfile is one representation that adds such information. I would think most software would recognize that format. 2020-07-17T09:20:02Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T09:20:40Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:21:11Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:24:18Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-17T09:24:32Z luna_is_here: contrapunctus: You could take a look at PortMidi library. As far as I remember it also had the possibility to create virtual midi devices that you could use to send midi to software. The API is not too complex so it would be easy to create a CL wrapper. 2020-07-17T09:25:10Z beach: I think it would be much more interesting to see a pure Common Lisp solution. 2020-07-17T09:25:58Z luna_is_here: I'm not sure about the virtual device part. 2020-07-17T09:26:12Z luna_is_here: Maybe I am confusing something here... 2020-07-17T09:28:30Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:28:39Z luna_is_here: beach: Yeah. But if you want to send midi to hardware, you need to use the OS's interface (unless you are using DOS), meaning you have to create wrappers for every OS that you want to run on. 2020-07-17T09:29:02Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:29:36Z contrapunctus: luna_is_here: oh, bugger, that's why I couldn't find it - it was PortMidi, not RtMIDI 😅 thanks for reminding me. Lisp bindings! https://sourceforge.net/p/portmedia/code/HEAD/tree/portmidi/trunk/pm_cl/ 2020-07-17T09:29:36Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:29:37Z jackdaniel: I think that there is a difference between using bindings to a library and using bindings to interface with the os 2020-07-17T09:30:10Z beach: I agree with jackdaniel. 2020-07-17T09:30:10Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T09:30:41Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:30:46Z luna_is_here: contrapunctus: :D The problem is, that RtMidi is the library that has the virtual midi device... Not PortMidi :( 2020-07-17T09:31:02Z luna_is_here: contrapunctus: If that is an important feature... 2020-07-17T09:31:26Z jackdaniel: I remember once (as a joke) I've made a linux kernel driver to play rttl mario bros melody on a buzzer 2020-07-17T09:31:41Z contrapunctus: But while sending MIDI to hardware would be nice, sending it to other software is more important for me 😶 2020-07-17T09:32:19Z contrapunctus: luna_is_here: what's a virtual MIDI device? 😶 (I really don't know anything about MIDI, except as a user...) 2020-07-17T09:32:47Z phoe: it's a program that accepts MIDI commands and can send MIDI commands, just like a physical MIDI device that is connected to a computer through a cable 2020-07-17T09:33:47Z luna_is_here: contrapunctus: If you want to send MIDI to, let's say, a DAW, then the DAW will look for a MIDI device to read and write data from and to. Hence, if you want to send midi to a software, most of the time, you get there by emulating a midi device. 2020-07-17T09:34:40Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:34:48Z luna_is_here: Just because most software will just ask the OS for the midi devices available, and use those. 2020-07-17T09:34:52Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T09:35:43Z luna_is_here: Depending on what you plan exactly, you can also write a VST, LV2 or AU plugin. That could be possible with ECL. 2020-07-17T09:35:49Z contrapunctus: Oh. So I need to either make bindings for RtMIDI or Rewrite It In Lisp? 😶 2020-07-17T09:37:39Z luna_is_here: From looking at the documentation, I fear that PortMidi does not allow for the creation of virtual midi device. So if that is what you want, then I assume: yes. 2020-07-17T09:38:50Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-17T09:40:55Z stepnem joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:42:04Z luna_is_here: Otherwise you could use loopMIDI on Windows. (I do not know if there is something similar for other OS's) 2020-07-17T09:42:28Z beach: Are there still people using Windows? 2020-07-17T09:42:46Z luna_is_here: :D 2020-07-17T09:42:51Z phoe: beach: there sadly are 2020-07-17T09:42:56Z beach: Wow! 2020-07-17T09:43:44Z contrapunctus: 😄 2020-07-17T09:46:28Z contrapunctus: So how would I go about making Lisp bindings for a C++ library? Didn't get any relevant results. 2020-07-17T09:46:51Z phoe: you're up for a world of pain 2020-07-17T09:46:56Z beach just lost interest in this project. 2020-07-17T09:47:10Z phoe: the standard way is to create a C interface in between, compile that, and interface Lisp with it 2020-07-17T09:47:30Z contrapunctus: Yow. 2020-07-17T09:47:40Z phoe: doing it with raw C++ is insanity e.g. because of the way it does name mangling 2020-07-17T09:47:49Z phoe: or use Clasp which compiles Lisp with C++ code 2020-07-17T09:48:19Z phoe: basically, C++ is a horrible abomination to interface with 2020-07-17T09:48:21Z contrapunctus: phoe: but that would mean it wouldn't be implementation portable 🙁 2020-07-17T09:49:00Z phoe: contrapunctus: what do you mean, implementation portable? 2020-07-17T09:49:07Z phoe: you mean a Lisp implementation or a C++ implementation 2020-07-17T09:49:24Z phoe: Lisp is not a problem because you have CFFI which is a portability library 2020-07-17T09:49:44Z phoe: C++ is not a problem when you have C, because C names are not mangled 2020-07-17T09:49:58Z contrapunctus: I mean, then I'd be stuck with Clasp and someone using e.g. SBCL wouldn't be able to use the library. 2020-07-17T09:50:04Z phoe: obviously 2020-07-17T09:50:32Z phoe: Clasp-compiling C++ with Lisp won't work with other implementations. 2020-07-17T09:50:57Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-07-17T09:51:05Z phoe: so a C mediation layer is one of the two options I'd consider for real, practical purposes 2020-07-17T09:51:38Z contrapunctus: phoe: is there any resource I can study, for doing that? 2020-07-17T09:51:40Z phoe: the other is going beach way and writing everything in Lisp and/or using or reviving some already existing Lisp software, which I don't think would be that hard 2020-07-17T09:52:16Z beach: There is a lot of music software at IRCAM and they used Common Lisp a lot. 2020-07-17T09:52:22Z phoe: ^ 2020-07-17T09:52:24Z beach: Maybe some of it is now open source. 2020-07-17T09:52:39Z beach: Try OpenMusic for instance. 2020-07-17T09:52:48Z contrapunctus: Whoa. That would mean studying so many MIDI APIs on so many platforms 😳 2020-07-17T09:52:59Z phoe: what do you mean, many MIDI APIs on many platforms 2020-07-17T09:53:10Z phoe: you can stick with just one if you're lucky 2020-07-17T09:53:28Z phoe: also, once you understand MIDI as a protocol, you can implement it anywhere 2020-07-17T09:53:30Z contrapunctus: (Although, well, probably still less work and more play than dealing with C/C++) 2020-07-17T09:53:38Z phoe: I think that I agree with that 2020-07-17T09:53:45Z phoe: almost everything is better than dealing with C++ 2020-07-17T09:54:13Z phoe: and when dealing with C++ is the only real viable option for your use case, you get insane^Wambitious projects like Clasp sprout into life 2020-07-17T09:54:24Z contrapunctus: hehe 2020-07-17T09:55:09Z phoe: but then again, that's because drmeister has truckloads of C++ science code that he needs to use from Lisp and at the same time cannot feasily rewrite in Lisp. 2020-07-17T09:55:54Z luna_is_here: contrapunctus: RtMidi has a C API also. 2020-07-17T09:56:47Z phoe: so tl;dr either use native Lisp software (which is greatly preferable and requires just a bit of software archaeology now and then), or bind against C foreign interfaces when native Lisp stuff is not available and not feasible to write 2020-07-17T09:59:53Z contrapunctus: luna_is_here: ah, thanks for pointing that out. 🙂 2020-07-17T10:00:01Z beach: contrapunctus: I suggest you look at OpenMusic. It is written in Common Lisp and it can be downloaded for Linux. 2020-07-17T10:00:52Z beach: There are also versions for MacOS and Windows apparently. 2020-07-17T10:03:53Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-07-17T10:03:58Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T10:04:47Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-17T10:06:25Z frgo_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-17T10:07:31Z countvaj` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T10:07:53Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-17T10:12:47Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T10:15:27Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-17T10:15:29Z contrapunctus: So many roads to choose from 😵 2020-07-17T10:25:56Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-07-17T10:25:56Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-17T10:27:32Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-17T10:29:24Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T10:30:12Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-17T10:39:22Z kmeow quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T10:40:29Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-07-17T10:41:32Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-17T10:41:34Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T10:42:47Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-17T10:44:22Z rixard quit 2020-07-17T10:47:10Z luna_is_here: Did SWIG not have CL support at one point? 2020-07-17T10:48:39Z phoe: it did, v2; v3 removed it 2020-07-17T10:48:59Z luna_is_here: Awww :/ 2020-07-17T10:50:32Z vornth joined #lisp 2020-07-17T10:51:16Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T10:52:55Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-07-17T10:52:55Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-07-17T10:53:14Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T10:55:26Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-17T10:55:42Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-07-17T10:58:42Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T11:00:22Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T11:02:40Z TMA: luna_is_here: I were attempting to resurrect it, but the amount of time my brain is capable to make progress is severely constrained by other more pressing tasks. 2020-07-17T11:02:56Z TMA: I was, even 2020-07-17T11:03:10Z luna_is_here: I see. 2020-07-17T11:04:56Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-07-17T11:05:37Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T11:06:15Z vutral joined #lisp 2020-07-17T11:10:53Z lerax` joined #lisp 2020-07-17T11:12:11Z Achylles joined #lisp 2020-07-17T11:15:23Z lerax quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-17T11:18:13Z nabataeus joined #lisp 2020-07-17T11:21:59Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-17T11:28:26Z markong joined #lisp 2020-07-17T11:28:30Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-17T11:37:00Z lerax` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-07-17T11:49:41Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2020-07-17T11:51:46Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-17T11:52:35Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T11:52:48Z ursuta joined #lisp 2020-07-17T11:52:49Z ursuta quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-07-17T11:52:52Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T11:53:04Z contrapunctus starts reading the CFFI tutorial 2020-07-17T12:03:34Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-07-17T12:05:01Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-17T12:08:13Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-17T12:08:17Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-17T12:09:25Z simon108 joined #lisp 2020-07-17T12:10:22Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T12:12:01Z beach: Oh well. 2020-07-17T12:12:02Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-17T12:12:09Z beach: I tried my best. 2020-07-17T12:22:48Z Achylles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T12:38:32Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-17T12:38:38Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-07-17T12:41:33Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-07-17T12:43:06Z contrapunctus: beach: I'll need that even if want to make a cross platform Lisp MIDI library...right? e.g. to interface with ALSA MIDI. 2020-07-17T12:43:45Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-07-17T12:46:15Z luna_is_here: contrapunctus: If you want to interface with hardware or software and not just write midi files, yes. 2020-07-17T12:47:49Z contrapunctus: I suppose one could implement a new Lisp MIDI API too, but I don't know if that will be worth the required effort. 2020-07-17T12:48:47Z contrapunctus: OpenMusic seems to use JUCE, so if they made a wrapper around that, maybe I could split it out into a project of its own. 2020-07-17T12:49:26Z luna_is_here: Sounds possible. 2020-07-17T12:51:28Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-17T12:53:11Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-07-17T12:53:35Z lukego: I'm rusty and not up to date on how the cool kids do control flow and data structures these days. what are some options for converting a two-dimensional array into a flat list? 2020-07-17T12:53:47Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T12:53:59Z phoe: you mean a list of lists? 2020-07-17T12:54:06Z phoe: or a list of all elements in row major order? 2020-07-17T12:54:39Z ayuce quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T12:54:55Z phoe: in the latter case, (loop with array = #2A((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9)) for i below (array-total-size array) collect (row-major-aref array i)) 2020-07-17T12:55:00Z lukego: the latter. Or I'd settle for just a way to iterate through all items 2020-07-17T12:55:02Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T12:55:15Z lukego: oh that is neat! 2020-07-17T12:55:16Z satousan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-07-17T12:55:17Z phoe: gods bless ROW-MAJOR-AREF 2020-07-17T12:55:48Z lukego: I don't think I've really used multidimensional arrays in lisp before. I was surprised and delighted to see the reader syntax for literals. 2020-07-17T12:55:50Z jackdaniel: conformally displaced row-major-aref winks from the depths of hell 2020-07-17T12:56:43Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-17T12:57:32Z _death: (coerce (make-array (array-total-size array) :displaced-to 2d-array) 'list) 2020-07-17T12:57:46Z phoe: _death: also nice 2020-07-17T12:58:01Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-07-17T12:58:58Z lukego: I've done so much Lua lately that I catch myself thinking that ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE should be expensive since checking the size of each row takes O(log n) time to binary search for the last populated element.. 2020-07-17T12:59:26Z lukego: (not that it would matter now anyway) 2020-07-17T13:00:12Z _death: you may also need to supply the element-type 2020-07-17T13:01:57Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T13:02:38Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-07-17T13:07:14Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T13:07:56Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-07-17T13:08:11Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-07-17T13:15:21Z vaporatorius__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-17T13:15:31Z vutral quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-17T13:15:31Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-17T13:15:31Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2020-07-17T13:15:32Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-07-17T13:19:07Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-17T13:21:10Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T13:21:23Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-17T13:21:44Z lukego: I'd like to generate some randomized test data. Ideally starting with simple examples and gradually becoming more complex. Basically like in a property-based testing framework. Any recommendations? 2020-07-17T13:22:11Z phoe: screamer comes to mind, but it solves a slightly different problem 2020-07-17T13:26:20Z l1x quit 2020-07-17T13:26:40Z l1x joined #lisp 2020-07-17T13:27:52Z lukego: Maybe check-it? https://github.com/DalekBaldwin/check-it 2020-07-17T13:35:52Z _death: fiveam also has some random testing support 2020-07-17T13:36:58Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-17T13:37:09Z lukego: check-it code looks really nice to me at first glance. heavy on a pattern matching library called OPTIMA that looks nifty too 2020-07-17T13:37:26Z lukego: seems like the generators can be used independently of the testing framework (but I'll probably want that later) 2020-07-17T13:38:47Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-07-17T13:46:10Z mjl quit 2020-07-17T13:46:27Z mjl joined #lisp 2020-07-17T13:47:05Z lukego: hm but being part of an automated test framework there maybe aren't the right knobs for generators. Seems like the random sampling takes a uniform value up to a size limit, whereas I'd probably like some other random distributions e.g. log transform to bias towards small values while still permitting bigger ones. maybe can put that into the framework. reads... 2020-07-17T13:49:12Z jmercouris: OPTIMA is not nifty, not in my opinion 2020-07-17T13:49:12Z jmercouris: I don't like pattern matching libraries 2020-07-17T13:49:17Z jmercouris: cryptic syntax 2020-07-17T13:49:24Z jmercouris: it is not so verbose to write (equal x y) is it? 2020-07-17T13:49:52Z jackdaniel: that's not what pattern matching is for 2020-07-17T13:50:00Z jmercouris: that's what is often used for 2020-07-17T13:51:02Z jackdaniel: by whom? ,) 2020-07-17T13:51:06Z lukego: check-it source is really easy to read with the patterns, for me at least who's worked in patterny languages sometimes in the past (otherwise surely cognitive overhead) 2020-07-17T13:52:24Z lukego: guess it's also one of those things where if you're doing pattern matching you'll tend to choose basic data structures to suit 2020-07-17T13:53:36Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-17T14:00:16Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-07-17T14:02:34Z splittist quit 2020-07-17T14:02:50Z splittist joined #lisp 2020-07-17T14:12:51Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-17T14:17:57Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-17T14:20:22Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2020-07-17T14:21:23Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-07-17T14:24:33Z Retropikzel joined #lisp 2020-07-17T14:30:47Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-07-17T14:33:36Z simon108 left #lisp 2020-07-17T14:39:49Z tristero joined #lisp 2020-07-17T14:49:05Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-07-17T14:50:10Z Josh_2: Hi 2020-07-17T14:51:18Z Josh_2: Wheres the best place to look for examples of the MOP in use? 2020-07-17T14:55:34Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T14:56:56Z Gnuxie[m]: what do you want to do with it? 2020-07-17T14:57:16Z lukego: I feel dirty when I call SB-INT:COLLECT. Is there an obvious way to launder that e.g. via alexandria or something? 2020-07-17T14:57:52Z phoe: lukego: uiop:while-collecting, unless you're allergic to uiop 2020-07-17T14:58:26Z lukego: thanks! 2020-07-17T15:01:02Z jackdaniel: uiop:while-collecting has a bug, I don't recall what exactly 2020-07-17T15:01:17Z jackdaniel: but it goes belly up for some inputs 2020-07-17T15:01:35Z Gnuxie[m]: Josh_2: Postmodern/Mito/json-mop have readable examples for slot classes and other basic use cases (but honestly h*ck ORM) 2020-07-17T15:01:52Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver) 2020-07-17T15:02:27Z jackdaniel: lukego: collect originates from cmucl, here is one of many utility copies: https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/blob/master/Core/clim-basic/utils.lisp#L716 2020-07-17T15:02:59Z phoe: the issue is that I don't know a commonly used library that includes this macro 2020-07-17T15:03:07Z phoe: flip214: maybe alexandria2 would consider adding it? 2020-07-17T15:03:07Z lukego: I'm actually fine with being non-portable it just feels icky to reference SB-INT in source code because it looks "internaley." Back when I used CMUCL I was more than happy to use EXT:COLLECT :) 2020-07-17T15:03:29Z phoe: s/whole post/maybe you would consider adding it to alexandria2?/ 2020-07-17T15:03:36Z jackdaniel: lukego: just copy it to your utilities file and forget about the issue 2020-07-17T15:03:41Z lukego: Or otherwise how would you convert alexandria's MAP-COMBINATIONS into a COMBINATIONS function that accumulates into a list? 2020-07-17T15:04:03Z Josh_2: Gnuxie[m]: I'm not sure, I need to get a gist of what I can do with it before I can understand how I can apply it to current projects 2020-07-17T15:04:06Z jackdaniel: the library "collectors" has somewhat similar equivalent 2020-07-17T15:04:16Z Josh_2: I will check what you have suggested, thanks Gnuxie[m] 2020-07-17T15:05:14Z lukego: jackdaniel: yeah fair enough. I did the next best/worst thing of updating my defpackage with (import-from #:sb-int #:collect) 2020-07-17T15:05:25Z jackdaniel: that works too, sure 2020-07-17T15:06:31Z lukego: I'm curious though how other people usually do "collecting" with "mapping" functions though? I mean for data that's not supported by loop accumulating keywords and doesn't provide a reduce-like accumulating version 2020-07-17T15:06:59Z jackdaniel uses ext:collect on ecl and climi::collect in mcclim :) 2020-07-17T15:07:03Z phoe: a LAMBDA over PUSH tends to save the day 2020-07-17T15:07:28Z jackdaniel: don't forget about nreverse 2020-07-17T15:07:59Z phoe: oh right, (let ((x '())) ... (lambda (y) (push y x)) ... (nreverse x))) 2020-07-17T15:08:25Z lukego: ok yeah that's decent too but I'll stick with collect 2020-07-17T15:08:53Z lukego: I have missed this about Lisp, curating one's own personal programming style :) 2020-07-17T15:12:15Z beach: Don't take that possibility too far. 2020-07-17T15:12:34Z kmeow joined #lisp 2020-07-17T15:13:05Z phoe: "with great expressiveness comes great possibilty of making Lisp as readable as poorly golfed Perl" 2020-07-17T15:16:36Z contrapunctus: lol 2020-07-17T15:17:22Z lukego: shoe changing foot quickly :-) thought I was clever doing (collect ((comb)) (alexandria:map-combations #'comb list)) ...) but of course COMB is a not a function... 2020-07-17T15:18:16Z lukego: not immediately obvious to me that COLLECT needs to use MACROLET instead of LABELS under the hood either... 2020-07-17T15:19:08Z phoe: I think that FLET is enough though 2020-07-17T15:19:36Z phoe: at least my lambda example up there has a single anonymous function for collecting stuff 2020-07-17T15:19:47Z contrapunctus: beach: I had a look at the 'ancient CL version' of OpenMusic on GitHub...it seems to be GPL, whereas I prefer to Unlicense my work. 😔 I guess I'll look into wrapping the RtMIDI C API, which seems like the next most pragmatic route. 2020-07-17T15:20:59Z phoe: ancient? https://github.com/openmusic-project/openmusic has a release from this year 2020-07-17T15:21:03Z phoe: but that is GPL as well 2020-07-17T15:21:09Z jackdaniel: the macro collect uses macrolet to allow having any collecting method, not only collect list 2020-07-17T15:23:55Z lukego: collectors library looks nice but code doesn't seem to match implementation. (collecting (map-combinations #'collect list)) should do what I want but the macro doesn't parse those args 2020-07-17T15:24:03Z satousan joined #lisp 2020-07-17T15:26:10Z ntr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T15:29:19Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2020-07-17T15:30:29Z satousan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-07-17T15:31:04Z contrapunctus: phoe: oh, I confused it with CommonMusic 🤦‍♀️ 2020-07-17T15:31:29Z ntr joined #lisp 2020-07-17T15:34:14Z lukego: so my ultimate compromise for now is to take the nice COLLECTING interface from the COLLECTORS documentation, which isn't really supported by that library as installed from quicklisp, and port it onto the top of SB-INT:COLLECT. good enough for now. https://gist.github.com/lukego/1714405ba893250812bf522a1e4f1b97 2020-07-17T15:35:23Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T15:39:34Z lukego: then you can (defun permutations (list) (collecting (map-permutations #'collect list))) which is a darling I haven't murdered yet :) 2020-07-17T15:41:22Z ffwacom quit 2020-07-17T15:41:38Z ffwacom joined #lisp 2020-07-17T15:42:06Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-17T15:42:06Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-17T15:42:06Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-17T15:46:00Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-07-17T15:47:03Z boeg quit 2020-07-17T15:47:18Z boeg joined #lisp 2020-07-17T15:50:11Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T15:51:04Z lukego: So next naive question perhaps leading to a hot library tip: how would you compute the list of all subsets of the set LIST? 2020-07-17T15:53:00Z phoe: wait a second 2020-07-17T15:53:05Z phoe: LIST === (OR CONS NULL) 2020-07-17T15:53:10Z phoe: that's when it comes to types 2020-07-17T15:53:23Z phoe: what exactly do you want to do? 2020-07-17T15:53:26Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-07-17T15:53:26Z jackdaniel: that's not a problem, the resulting list will have a nil as one of subsets 2020-07-17T15:54:10Z lukego: (subsets (1 2 3)) => (() (1) (2) (3) (1 2) (1 3) (2 3) (1 2 3)) 2020-07-17T15:54:56Z lukego: I find myself writing a recursive function but it feels like this should exist and that makes me wonder if I'm missing another alexandria/uiop sort of library 2020-07-17T15:55:08Z lukego: or simply doing an apropos search on the wrong keyword.. 2020-07-17T15:55:51Z lukego consults that awesome-lisp page again.. 2020-07-17T15:57:26Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-17T15:57:28Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-17T15:57:50Z jackdaniel: lukego: I have something 2020-07-17T15:57:53Z jackdaniel: hang on 2020-07-17T15:58:15Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-07-17T15:58:55Z phoe: (let ((x '()) (list '(1 2 3 4 5))) (loop for i from 0 below (length list) do (alexandria:map-combinations (lambda (y) (push y x)) list :length i)) x) 2020-07-17T15:59:05Z phoe: could also use DOTIMES instead of LOOP 2020-07-17T15:59:34Z contrapunctus: Doesn't loop let you say 'with x'? 2020-07-17T15:59:42Z phoe: oh right, it does 2020-07-17T15:59:59Z jackdaniel: what phoe wrote is ~same what I had in mind 2020-07-17T16:00:50Z pve: lukego: is that the powerset? 2020-07-17T16:01:02Z pve: https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Power_set#Common_Lisp 2020-07-17T16:01:08Z phoe: pve: it is 2020-07-17T16:01:11Z lukego: phoe: oh nice. I can combine that with my little NIH macro and have (collecting (dotimes (i (length list)) (map-combinations #'collect list :length i))) which is just fine 2020-07-17T16:01:58Z lukego: thank you pve! I lacked that term and it's the right one 2020-07-17T16:03:19Z pve: lukego: np 2020-07-17T16:03:33Z lukego: I like this little collecting/collect pair from COLLECTORS interface because I'm not sure that I've ever actually had multiple collectors with COLLECT nor given a collector a useful name 2020-07-17T16:03:46Z lukego: Jolly nice lisping with you all. nice weekend! 2020-07-17T16:04:12Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-17T16:07:12Z nabataeus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T16:10:35Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T16:11:17Z dlowe: Seems like you could make a list type if you could do (deftype my-list (or (cons my-type my-list) null)) 2020-07-17T16:11:26Z dlowe: *a nicer list type 2020-07-17T16:16:18Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T16:16:21Z Bike: recursive types introduce complications into the system that i, at least, wouldn't know how to solve. for example under the usual recursive definition of subtype, #1=(cons t #1#), which i would understand as the type of infinite circular lists, is a subtype of the bottom type NIL 2020-07-17T16:16:27Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-17T16:17:47Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-17T16:18:33Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-17T16:19:05Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-17T16:22:05Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-17T16:36:20Z makomo joined #lisp 2020-07-17T16:41:59Z avalos joined #lisp 2020-07-17T16:46:57Z frgo: Hi all: question: I need to copy a large (2GB) in 255 byte chunks into foreign memory using CFFI. Would I use something like https://github.com/jetmonk/waaf-cffi for this? 2020-07-17T16:47:18Z frgo: s/large /large file / 2020-07-17T16:48:06Z frgo: Or just cffi:with-foreign-pointer and loop ? 2020-07-17T16:58:28Z avalos quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T16:59:03Z avalos joined #lisp 2020-07-17T17:01:41Z phoe: maybe try mmapping it instead 2020-07-17T17:06:13Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-17T17:06:27Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T17:11:04Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-17T17:11:23Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T17:13:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-07-17T17:14:07Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T17:14:35Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-07-17T17:17:24Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-17T17:17:35Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T17:25:01Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-17T17:25:33Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-17T17:27:06Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-17T17:28:15Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T17:29:50Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-17T17:31:08Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-17T17:33:02Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-17T17:33:43Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-07-17T17:41:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-17T17:41:56Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T17:44:56Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-17T17:49:57Z frgo: phoe: Yeah. But but but ... How to get that into foreign memory "easily"... 2020-07-17T17:50:32Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-07-17T17:54:57Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-17T17:57:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-17T17:58:06Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T17:59:38Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-17T18:03:24Z technobean joined #lisp 2020-07-17T18:03:46Z phoe: frgo: mmap it and memcpy? 2020-07-17T18:04:51Z frgo: phoe: Hmpf - yup. You are right - it's the simple things that sometimes are hard to find ... Thanks! 2020-07-17T18:07:02Z brown121407 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T18:07:54Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T18:12:06Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-17T18:12:11Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T18:12:20Z choegusung joined #lisp 2020-07-17T18:13:15Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T18:18:11Z technobean quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-17T18:21:06Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-17T18:22:26Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T18:24:58Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T18:26:36Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-07-17T18:30:50Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-17T18:31:16Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-17T18:32:07Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-17T18:32:21Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-07-17T18:32:36Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T18:32:51Z Krystof joined #lisp 2020-07-17T18:34:06Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-07-17T18:38:21Z RagnarDanneskjol quit 2020-07-17T18:38:33Z RagnarDanneskjol joined #lisp 2020-07-17T18:39:38Z Josh_2: Do we have a 'seen' command in here? 2020-07-17T18:40:31Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-17T18:40:46Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T18:46:44Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-17T18:48:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-17T18:48:55Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T18:49:28Z aeth: I think minion has a seen command? iirc 2020-07-17T18:49:42Z aeth: Josh_2: I usually just use this though: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp 2020-07-17T18:50:17Z aeth: you can search "written by" and keep expanding the time interval until the person you are looking for has spoken, but keep in mind that it's rate limited to a very noticable length, maybe 5-10 seconds... https://irclog.tymoon.eu/search?channel=freenode%2F%23lisp 2020-07-17T18:50:49Z aeth: There's no all-channel search, though, so a bot has the advantage that it might have seen someone on another channel who hasn't spoken here recently. 2020-07-17T18:57:16Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-17T18:58:40Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T18:59:06Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:00:22Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T19:01:38Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:04:25Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:04:46Z xrash joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:07:25Z Josh_2: pjb hasn't been around for a while 2020-07-17T19:07:29Z Josh_2: or did he change his name? 2020-07-17T19:07:55Z ft joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:08:02Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:09:49Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-17T19:10:44Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T19:11:16Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:16:33Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-17T19:19:42Z ayuce quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T19:21:07Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:21:14Z aeth: pjb was online recently, but hasn't said anything 2020-07-17T19:21:58Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:28:55Z karayan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T19:29:26Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T19:30:07Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-17T19:30:08Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:32:17Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:37:55Z karayan joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:44:32Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-17T19:44:56Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:45:15Z aaaaaa joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:46:28Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:46:33Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:50:50Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T19:51:44Z simon108 joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:53:27Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T19:54:36Z Josh_2: aeth: okay sweet 2020-07-17T19:57:29Z nullheroes joined #lisp 2020-07-17T19:59:13Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-17T20:01:24Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-17T20:01:36Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T20:04:07Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-17T20:08:30Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-17T20:10:44Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-17T20:11:26Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-17T20:12:46Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T20:20:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-17T20:21:26Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T20:24:45Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-17T20:27:01Z theseb joined #lisp 2020-07-17T20:30:07Z hipete joined #lisp 2020-07-17T20:30:18Z hipete left #lisp 2020-07-17T20:31:34Z avalos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T20:33:15Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-17T20:39:13Z mgsk quit 2020-07-17T20:39:30Z mgsk joined #lisp 2020-07-17T20:39:42Z terpri__ joined #lisp 2020-07-17T20:42:32Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T20:46:21Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-17T20:48:15Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-07-17T20:48:36Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-07-17T20:53:18Z seok: how do I call a function with variables in a list? 2020-07-17T20:53:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-17T20:53:36Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-07-17T20:56:02Z ebrasca: seok: Can you explain more what do you whant? 2020-07-17T20:56:37Z jackdaniel: (apply function arg-list) 2020-07-17T20:56:58Z Josh_2: Did Ravenpack fill that junior position in Marbella? 2020-07-17T21:01:12Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T21:01:32Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T21:03:55Z Gnuxie[m]: Josh_2: pjb got banned i think 2020-07-17T21:07:16Z avalos joined #lisp 2020-07-17T21:07:17Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T21:09:46Z orivej_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-17T21:10:01Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T21:10:22Z jackdaniel: he got unbanned few days later 2020-07-17T21:13:45Z mercourisj joined #lisp 2020-07-17T21:14:28Z younder joined #lisp 2020-07-17T21:15:02Z Josh_2: banned in here?? 2020-07-17T21:15:24Z younder: not for the moment 2020-07-17T21:15:29Z simon108 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2020-07-17T21:16:29Z younder: Truth be told I write drone software these days. Hardly any Lisp. I just hang around for old times sake. 2020-07-17T21:16:40Z Josh_2: write drone software in Lisp :P 2020-07-17T21:18:22Z mercourisj: anyone know of any Lisp applications for photo management? 2020-07-17T21:18:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T21:22:09Z Josh_2: i'm looking back at some of the code I wrote over a year and trying to fix it up, It's dreadful oof 2020-07-17T21:22:13Z ayuce quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T21:22:43Z younder: The easiest way is use a shell language interface like the one provided by imagemagic. Shell out to that and it should provide what you need. 2020-07-17T21:22:48Z mercourisj: that's good news Josh_2 2020-07-17T21:22:50Z mercourisj: that means you are growing 2020-07-17T21:23:02Z terpri__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-17T21:23:13Z mercourisj: I'm talking about photo library management, browsing, viewing, sorting, etc 2020-07-17T21:24:11Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T21:24:11Z younder confesses to mosty use imagemagic from PHP.. 2020-07-17T21:25:20Z mercourisj: maybe a good candidate for a CLIM application 2020-07-17T21:25:24Z mercourisj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T21:26:05Z younder: Image processing is a lot of work.. Hope you have a lot of friends ;) 2020-07-17T21:26:36Z younder: A frontend to OpenCV might be a start. 2020-07-17T21:27:45Z torbo: What's the best way to parse a string representation of a rational number (i.e. "3/4") into a rational number in CL? 2020-07-17T21:28:51Z younder: read 2020-07-17T21:29:02Z Bike: easiest is READ but it'll do bad things on malformed input. you could use POSITION to get the solidus, and then PARSE-INTEGER both sides. 2020-07-17T21:30:37Z torbo: Great, thank you both! 2020-07-17T21:31:06Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-17T21:34:51Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T21:35:21Z yonkunas quit 2020-07-17T21:35:37Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2020-07-17T21:41:47Z libertyprime quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-17T21:42:08Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2020-07-17T21:43:42Z jasom: there is also the library parse-number 2020-07-17T21:46:12Z younder: Bike is a PhD. He writes robust code for industrial applications. I am guessing turbo isn't there yet. 2020-07-17T21:46:23Z Bike: what the hell? 2020-07-17T21:48:33Z younder: Bike a was a peripheral developer on you compiler 2020-07-17T21:48:57Z younder: ^ O 2020-07-17T21:49:04Z younder: ^ I 2020-07-17T21:49:09Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-07-17T21:50:16Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-17T21:51:23Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T21:56:02Z aeth: here? I remember pjb being banned from #scheme for a short while for only being there to promote CL... that might be what you're thinking of. 2020-07-17T21:58:38Z Bike: as jackdaniel said, already, less than an hour ago, he was banned from here for a few days 2020-07-17T21:58:38Z scymtym: i think people are referring to this: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1592014365#1592014365 2020-07-17T22:03:04Z younder left #lisp 2020-07-17T22:03:11Z younder joined #lisp 2020-07-17T22:03:58Z avalos quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T22:04:36Z younder: I don't know by I have not been here. Left andforgotten and mostly irrelevant. If I say someting that sounds like misinformation, please let me know. 2020-07-17T22:07:19Z jason_m quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T22:12:16Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-17T22:12:27Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T22:13:30Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-07-17T22:14:20Z younder quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-17T22:15:02Z younder joined #lisp 2020-07-17T22:17:43Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-07-17T22:20:23Z Josh_2: seems like a petty ban 2020-07-17T22:20:56Z Josh_2: This community is pretty small, last thing needed is isolating individuals over petty stuff like being abrasive 2020-07-17T22:22:30Z White_Flame: there's a difference between being abrasive and being intentionally obtuse, screaming that everybody's correct and applicable answers are absolutely wrong in expletive laden screeds 2020-07-17T22:23:27Z Josh_2: Hey, that's just pjb xD 2020-07-17T22:23:37Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-17T22:24:05Z Josh_2: I started here when I was basically 100% new to programming and I got that impression from him pretty early, I still appreciate the walls of text to this day 2020-07-17T22:26:34Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-07-17T22:27:14Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T22:28:56Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-17T22:30:06Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-17T22:35:02Z sz0 joined #lisp 2020-07-17T22:35:38Z younder: White_Flame, sounds like a bot 2020-07-17T22:38:11Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T22:41:41Z seok quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T22:51:39Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-07-17T22:52:11Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-17T22:52:57Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-07-17T23:02:01Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-17T23:07:53Z dlowe: It's *more* important in a small community to boot people who spread bullshit. 2020-07-17T23:08:20Z johntalent joined #lisp 2020-07-17T23:08:31Z jesse1010 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-17T23:11:54Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-07-17T23:20:01Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-17T23:20:18Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-17T23:23:08Z stylewarning: dlowe: CL:BULLSHIT isn’t a part of ANSI Common Lisp. *DEFAULT-BULLSHIT-DEFAULTS* may have bullshit or other components of bullshit, though. 2020-07-17T23:23:22Z aeth: pjb gives particularly bad advice on IRC when the question is about the type system ime... His advice is consistently to never check types and just let things fail at the point where they fail, but ime that just leads to a random NIL showing up 20 functions away from where it was generated and a waste of a day. 2020-07-17T23:23:49Z torbo: jasom: Thanks! 2020-07-17T23:29:18Z libertyprime quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-17T23:29:52Z johntalent: How would it be possible to use ABCL with The Godot Game Engine? 2020-07-17T23:30:29Z aeth: ABCL is Java-based and not very popular, at least on IRC, so you would probably have better odds with ECL, which is designed to be embedded in C applications. 2020-07-17T23:34:20Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-17T23:35:54Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-17T23:37:46Z aeth: johntalent: It looks like all other (not GDScript, VisualScript, or C#) languages are supposed to interface through the GDNative C++ bindings. https://docs.godotengine.org/en/stable/getting_started/step_by_step/scripting.html#gdnative-c 2020-07-17T23:38:08Z aeth: ECL or even Clasp (the latter is a work-in-progress) seems like it would be a lot less painful than trying to bring in the entirety of the Java environment 2020-07-17T23:38:50Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-17T23:39:56Z aeth: johntalent: I found one result: https://github.com/borodust/bodge-godot 2020-07-17T23:55:56Z borodust: aeth johntalent: i guess i need to add a warning there or smth - those bindings are highly experimental - i never used them it was just an experiment to see how hard it would be to generate bindings for godot 2020-07-17T23:56:16Z borodust: it was easy to, but i didn't go any further, so those might actually not work ;p 2020-07-18T00:01:30Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-18T00:03:57Z borodust: once i'm done with c++ support in :claw i might get back and actually try them out :) 2020-07-18T00:04:53Z borodust: hopefully, that doesn't mean never, cuz i'm 95% done implementing it and only need to finish the other 95% 2020-07-18T00:07:10Z johntalent: aeth: wow. 2020-07-18T00:07:20Z johntalent: aeth: looks good thanks. somewhat recent too. 2020-07-18T00:08:35Z johntalent: thanks borodust 2020-07-18T00:08:38Z johntalent: thank you aeth. 2020-07-18T00:08:57Z johntalent quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-18T00:10:13Z borodust: i hope that wasn't about my bindings to godot api... 2020-07-18T00:10:51Z borodust: but i've added a warning so it should be alright now :/ 2020-07-18T00:16:14Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-18T00:16:59Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-18T00:20:05Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-18T00:25:29Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-18T00:27:04Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-07-18T00:28:52Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-18T00:43:25Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-07-18T00:44:40Z toorevitimirp quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-18T00:50:43Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-07-18T00:56:21Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T00:58:26Z vornth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-18T01:13:32Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-07-18T01:13:54Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-18T01:18:24Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-07-18T01:25:22Z aindilis joined #lisp 2020-07-18T01:29:04Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T01:29:54Z zooey joined #lisp 2020-07-18T01:44:53Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T01:47:58Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-18T01:54:49Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-18T01:57:19Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-07-18T02:01:49Z Misha_B joined #lisp 2020-07-18T02:04:25Z dominic34 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-18T02:04:43Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-07-18T02:15:10Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-18T02:31:35Z vutral joined #lisp 2020-07-18T02:37:22Z elosant joined #lisp 2020-07-18T02:41:07Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-18T02:44:44Z bsd4me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-18T02:51:51Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-07-18T02:53:00Z elosant quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-18T02:55:20Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-07-18T03:00:07Z elosant joined #lisp 2020-07-18T03:01:06Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-18T03:02:16Z elosant quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-18T03:02:29Z elosant joined #lisp 2020-07-18T03:04:01Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-18T03:06:45Z zooey quit (Quit: quit) 2020-07-18T03:06:59Z zooey joined #lisp 2020-07-18T03:11:55Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-07-18T03:12:07Z justache quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-18T03:12:37Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-07-18T03:13:36Z justache joined #lisp 2020-07-18T03:16:06Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-07-18T03:28:42Z not_a_seagull joined #lisp 2020-07-18T03:28:49Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-18T03:31:12Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-18T03:32:53Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-07-18T03:32:55Z elosant quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-18T03:32:57Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T03:35:03Z not_a_seagull: I'm very, very new to Lisp. What does "The function has an odd number of arguments in the keyword portion" mean? 2020-07-18T03:35:13Z not_a_seagull: There are not an odd number of arguments to my keyword setup. 2020-07-18T03:35:44Z beach: Show the call to the function. 2020-07-18T03:36:13Z beach: It means your function looks somewhat like this: (defun foo (x y &key a b...) ...) 2020-07-18T03:36:30Z beach: So it takes two required arguments and then a bunch of keyword arguments. 2020-07-18T03:36:47Z not_a_seagull: https://gist.github.com/not-a-seagull/76a4e7468494efe8be4a1cf75724a140 2020-07-18T03:36:56Z beach: So in this case, a call looks like (foo :a :b ...) 2020-07-18T03:37:50Z beach: Since I don't know ltk, you also need to tell me the lambda list of MAKE-CANVAS. 2020-07-18T03:38:14Z beach: It looks like there must be a required argument missing. 2020-07-18T03:38:26Z not_a_seagull: Idk. I don't know LTK either. 2020-07-18T03:38:39Z beach: So why are you using it? 2020-07-18T03:39:00Z not_a_seagull: It's the first GUI library I found, and it uses TK 2020-07-18T03:39:06Z not_a_seagull: What else should I use? 2020-07-18T03:39:42Z physpi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-18T03:39:52Z fowlduck quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-18T03:39:58Z beach: I think it is a horrible idea to use a foreign library if you are a Common Lisp newbie. You are going to run into all kinds of trouble. In fact, it's a bad idea to start learning Common Lisp by attempting a GUI application. 2020-07-18T03:40:18Z beach: However, since you are using it... 2020-07-18T03:40:48Z physpi joined #lisp 2020-07-18T03:41:03Z beach: You made a call (ltk:make-canvas ..). You must have seen somewhere the definition of the function make-canvas, or you would not have typed that code. No? 2020-07-18T03:41:13Z fowlduck joined #lisp 2020-07-18T03:41:32Z not_a_seagull: Well, I tried to use "make-instance" because that's what all the documentation I could find says to use 2020-07-18T03:41:41Z not_a_seagull: But it turns out "make-instance" doesn't exist anymore 2020-07-18T03:41:43Z aaaaaa quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-18T03:41:55Z not_a_seagull: So I look in the source code 2020-07-18T03:42:02Z not_a_seagull: And I see that "make-canvas" is exported 2020-07-18T03:42:09Z beach: MAKE-INSTANCE is a standard Common Lisp function, so it won't go away. 2020-07-18T03:42:21Z not_a_seagull: Oh, it's not an LTK thing? 2020-07-18T03:42:34Z beach: Again, it is a horrible idea to learn Common Lisp this way. 2020-07-18T03:43:20Z not_a_seagull: Yeah that seems to work. Thank you for your help. 2020-07-18T03:43:40Z beach: Using a GUI library, and especially one based on foreign code, is going to require some knowledge about the language itself. 2020-07-18T03:44:52Z Oladon: not_a_seagull: before you continue to reject beach's wise advice, consider well that by doing so you're essentially concluding that somehow, you know better than a veteran Lisper what is and is not a good way to learn Lisp. 2020-07-18T03:45:16Z Oladon: not_a_seagull: I recommend picking up a copy of the book Land of Lisp, and starting with that, and _then_ attempting your GUI application. 2020-07-18T03:45:19Z kleptoflora quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-18T03:45:38Z kleptoflora joined #lisp 2020-07-18T03:46:04Z not_a_seagull: Oladon: alright, I guess I'm being rash. I've been looking through Pratical Common Lisp, is that a good book? 2020-07-18T03:46:28Z Oladon: not_a_seagull: It is, but in my opinion it's not as good for beginners to the language as Land of Lisp is. 2020-07-18T03:46:35Z Oladon: beach: How long've you been practicing Lisp? 2020-07-18T03:47:05Z Oladon: not_a_seagull: Also Land of Lisp was written by a genius and has cartoons 2020-07-18T03:47:10Z beach: Oladon: Let's see, since 1977 or so. 2020-07-18T03:47:28Z Oladon: not_a_seagull: Cough cough ^ 2020-07-18T03:48:14Z not_a_seagull: Alright, I'll put a bookmark in Practical Common Lisp and pick up Land of Lisp. 2020-07-18T03:48:26Z Oladon: (On a side note, show me another language that anyone actually still enjoys after that long...) 2020-07-18T03:49:39Z not_a_seagull: Fortran? 2020-07-18T03:49:40Z beach: I recently watched an animated video on YouTube showing the evolution in popularity of different programming languages. It was amusing. I mean the definition of "popularity" is probably bogus. 2020-07-18T03:49:57Z beach: But the interesting part was how languages come and go. 2020-07-18T03:50:01Z Oladon: beach: It's generally considered on such a short scale, nods 2020-07-18T03:50:08Z Oladon: I guess it has to be because of that fact 2020-07-18T03:50:16Z beach: Like Ruby was SO HOT just a few years back and now it seems dead. 2020-07-18T03:50:19Z Oladon: Yep 2020-07-18T03:50:44Z not_a_seagull: I haven't been programming for long but I remember ASP.NET from a while back. 2020-07-18T03:50:46Z Oladon: I still get candidates whose entire coding experience (of 3-5 years) is in Ruby... not interested. 2020-07-18T03:50:54Z not_a_seagull: Now it's mostly replaced by Blazor IIRC 2020-07-18T03:51:29Z beach: not_a_seagull: Also note that there is #clschool for truly basic Common Lisp questions. 2020-07-18T03:51:30Z Oladon: beach: I laughed to myself as I typed the initial parenthetical because 90% of languages with "known" names nowadays weren't even _around_ in '77. 2020-07-18T03:51:42Z not_a_seagull: beach: thank you, I'll keep that in mind 2020-07-18T03:51:54Z tristero quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-18T03:52:25Z beach: Oladon: Yeah, people go to a lot of trouble to avoid learning Common Lisp. In particular, they keep inventing new languages that don't even come close. 2020-07-18T03:52:30Z Oladon: Indeed. 2020-07-18T03:53:16Z not_a_seagull: That's why I'm coming to Lisp, to be honest. I feel like it's something I should've learned when I first started. 2020-07-18T03:53:31Z beach: That, I agree with. But it is never too late. 2020-07-18T03:53:58Z Oladon: Or they "invent" this Great New Feature and release a new version of their language of choice (because their language of choice requires releasing a new version to add a feature...)... and the Lispers are like "?? We've had that since '59..." 2020-07-18T03:54:28Z beach: Exactly! 2020-07-18T03:55:04Z beach: Plus, we don't need a new release to add new syntax. We have macros and we have the compiler available at run-time. 2020-07-18T03:55:15Z Oladon: Right, that was the ellipsis there :) 2020-07-18T03:55:23Z beach: Ah, OK. 2020-07-18T03:55:45Z not_a_seagull: I read in practical lisp that the first iteration of object orientation was a library rather than a compiler update 2020-07-18T03:56:07Z beach: Correct. 2020-07-18T03:56:19Z beach: And the compiler is still not much involved in the object system. 2020-07-18T03:56:31Z Oladon: not_a_seagull: Which reminds me... as you begin to discover Lisp, you'll run into library repositories that haven't been updated in 8-10 years. Be not afraid; they're probably just done and don't need updates. 2020-07-18T03:57:13Z not_a_seagull: Oladon: I've seen a couple. I figure that, if anything isn't modern enough, it shouldn't be excruciatingly hard to do a pull request or fork. 2020-07-18T03:57:19Z Oladon: Heh. 2020-07-18T03:57:28Z Oladon: There's very little "aging" in Lisp code the way you're used to. 2020-07-18T03:57:48Z not_a_seagull: How often does lisp code really age? 2020-07-18T03:57:59Z Oladon: Core Lisp? Basically never. 2020-07-18T03:58:01Z beach: not_a_seagull: The Common Lisp Object System is a wonderful example of software design, and a wonderful example of what Common Lisp can do. 2020-07-18T03:58:30Z Oladon: nodnod 2020-07-18T03:58:39Z Oladon: I'm in awe of the CLOS. 2020-07-18T03:58:56Z not_a_seagull: That's cool. I have JS code from six months ago that's already considered aged. 2020-07-18T03:59:03Z Oladon: That's what I mean. :) 2020-07-18T04:00:37Z not_a_seagull: That being said, are there any considerations I should keep in mind when using packages from quicklisp? 2020-07-18T04:00:58Z Oladon: Not really; Xach does an excellent job weeding out anything that doesn't build. 2020-07-18T04:01:44Z not_a_seagull: Nice 2020-07-18T04:01:45Z Oladon: Quicklisp != npm 2020-07-18T04:02:24Z beach: Oladon: Do you mean (/= Quicklisp npm)? :) 2020-07-18T04:02:35Z not_a_seagull: ha3 2020-07-18T04:02:51Z Oladon kowtows in apology 2020-07-18T04:03:48Z not_a_seagull: I mostly say because I've been dabbling in Rust for the past few months, and sometimes there will be a package that has security vulnerabilities 2020-07-18T04:05:34Z avalos` joined #lisp 2020-07-18T04:05:54Z beach: Common Lisp code could certainly contain malware, but I think it would be discovered fairly quickly, and then Xach would remove it from Quicklisp. 2020-07-18T04:06:20Z not_a_seagull: Cool beans 2020-07-18T04:07:51Z beach: Standard Common Lisp code can not have security vulnerabilities of the kind you get in low-level languages like C, but it is certainly possible for some library code to alter the code generator of the compiler by using some implementation-specific functionality. 2020-07-18T04:08:21Z avalos`: Why cannot? 2020-07-18T04:08:32Z beach: Well, "can not" is a bit too strong I guess. If you use (safety 0) it is up to the implementation. 2020-07-18T04:09:24Z not_a_seagull: Lisp has a safety check? rad 2020-07-18T04:09:34Z beach: avalos`: Common Lisp code does not have access to arbitrary addresses, and that includes the stack. 2020-07-18T04:09:56Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-18T04:10:37Z avalos`: Yeah, but I think that "sandboxing" can be cracked somehow. 2020-07-18T04:11:12Z avalos`: Just like Meltdown and Spectre were not thought to even be possible. 2020-07-18T04:11:30Z xristos: there is no sandbox in CL 2020-07-18T04:11:38Z beach: not_a_seagull: The standard is actually pretty fuzzy about stuff like that. Many situations represent undefined behavior. Luckily, all major implementations are safe when the SAFETY optimize quality is high. 2020-07-18T04:11:56Z xristos: if you evaluate 3rd party Lisp code, it's game over 2020-07-18T04:12:15Z avalos`: xristos: That's why I used "quotes", because not having access to memory can be a way of sandboxing. 2020-07-18T04:12:27Z xristos: and you can have memory corruption in CL, with full safety 2020-07-18T04:12:37Z xristos: if you use foreign functions 2020-07-18T04:12:39Z avalos`: xristos: Exactly! 2020-07-18T04:12:55Z beach: ... or if you modify the code generator of the compiler. 2020-07-18T04:13:16Z beach: That is one reason I invented first-class global environments. 2020-07-18T04:13:31Z avalos`: Are standard CL implementations interpreted? 2020-07-18T04:13:43Z beach: avalos`: Not the modern ones, no. 2020-07-18T04:13:59Z not_a_seagull: Doesn't SBCL compile down to machine code? 2020-07-18T04:14:03Z beach: Yes. 2020-07-18T04:14:06Z avalos`: Oh. 2020-07-18T04:14:35Z avalos`: Well, then it depends on how secure is the generated code, I guess. 2020-07-18T04:14:37Z beach: avalos`: There is a tendency to confuse "interactive" and "interpreted". 2020-07-18T04:15:11Z not_a_seagull: Is SBCL like PyPy where it only compiles after the function is run a certain number of times? 2020-07-18T04:15:15Z beach: People with insufficient CS knowledge who see an interactive programming system often assume that it is interpreted. 2020-07-18T04:15:17Z avalos`: beach: It's a bit confusing how "interactive" works without "interpreted", though, at least to me. 2020-07-18T04:15:31Z avalos`: beach: But I'm aware about the differences. 2020-07-18T04:15:50Z beach: avalos`: The code is compiled on the fly and then executed. That's all there is to it. 2020-07-18T04:15:58Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-18T04:16:00Z xristos: it's not like PyPy (JIT), SBCL does ahead-of-time compilation 2020-07-18T04:16:05Z avalos`: JIT. 2020-07-18T04:16:19Z not_a_seagull: Oh it compiles on the fly? Cool. 2020-07-18T04:16:22Z avalos`: xristos: Oh. 2020-07-18T04:17:11Z xristos: you could have a CL implementation use a JIT compiler (clisp?) 2020-07-18T04:17:25Z xristos: but SBCL (and CCL) are AOT compilers 2020-07-18T04:18:00Z beach: But since a typical Common Lisp implementation, including SBCL, gives the user full access to the code, it is perfectly possible for some user code to modify the code generator, and then the code is obviously no longer safe. 2020-07-18T04:18:08Z avalos`: So, then, yeah, how secure a CL program is can be up to the impl, probably. 2020-07-18T04:18:31Z not_a_seagull: Is SBCL reasonably secure? 2020-07-18T04:18:34Z xristos: .. and -mainly- the program itself 2020-07-18T04:18:39Z avalos`: I don't think it's perfect. 2020-07-18T04:18:41Z avalos`: Nothing is perfect. 2020-07-18T04:18:44Z avalos`: It depends. 2020-07-18T04:18:48Z xristos: SBCL won't save you if you manually manage foreign memory 2020-07-18T04:18:58Z xristos: you can still have race conditions 2020-07-18T04:19:09Z xristos: you can still have all sorts of filesystem and permission issues 2020-07-18T04:19:22Z avalos`: Yeah, that's what I mean. 2020-07-18T04:20:03Z xristos: does it make it easier to avoid certain classes of security issues? yes 2020-07-18T04:20:11Z beach: not_a_seagull: It does a lot of run-time checks, so you get pretty good feedback when you make mistakes. So in that respect it is pretty secure. But, again, if you load arbitrary external code, all bets are off. 2020-07-18T04:20:29Z avalos`: xristos: Yeah, that's for sure. 2020-07-18T04:20:36Z not_a_seagull: I see 2020-07-18T04:20:43Z not_a_seagull: It's like that one google engineer said 2020-07-18T04:20:48Z avalos`: beach: Is it similar to Rust? 2020-07-18T04:20:51Z not_a_seagull: "The minute you load an attacker's code, it's over" 2020-07-18T04:21:13Z beach: avalos`: I don't see any similarities between Common Lisp and Rust. 2020-07-18T04:21:36Z avalos`: I mean, the run-time checks. 2020-07-18T04:21:40Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-18T04:21:44Z not_a_seagull: Doesn't Rust do compile-time checks? 2020-07-18T04:21:53Z avalos`: Yes. 2020-07-18T04:22:03Z avalos`: A lot. 2020-07-18T04:22:45Z avalos`: I've tried Rust only few times, but the compiler is indeed strict. 2020-07-18T04:22:51Z beach: avalos`: The semantics of Common Lisp include dynamic typing, so there is a limit to how much can be verified at compile time. 2020-07-18T04:23:52Z avalos`: That's a trade off for flexibility, but still, I imagine it has tools to avoid some sort of mistakes. 2020-07-18T04:24:40Z avalos`: I know little about CL, I haven't even used it, but I've learned a lot of Scheme, which shares a lot of concepts with CL. 2020-07-18T04:24:41Z beach: Again, I don't see many similarities between Common Lisp and Rust. In fact, Rust seems to be based on the false idea that garbage collection must be slower than manual memory management. At last according to an important member of the group that manages the Rust specification. 2020-07-18T04:25:18Z avalos`: beach: Well, it can be. It depends. 2020-07-18T04:26:07Z avalos`: Sometimes, manual memory management can give you a lot of performance. 2020-07-18T04:26:20Z not_a_seagull quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2020-07-18T04:26:53Z avalos`: Garbage collection works for most stuff, but still, there are cases where you want more control over memory and extra efficiency. 2020-07-18T04:27:40Z avalos`: The Linux kernel was never really rewritten in C++, because of those reasons. 2020-07-18T04:28:46Z avalos`: Well, C++ is not garbage collected (afaik), but still, it does a lot of things behind the curtains. 2020-07-18T04:28:59Z beach: And Lisp, on the other hand, was based on what Paul Wilson later characterized as "liveness is a global property", so that it is essentially impossible to write a correct program with manual memory management, that is both modular and fast. Now, granted, you don't always need modularity and you don't always need performance. 2020-07-18T04:29:47Z avalos`: Interesting. 2020-07-18T04:30:19Z avalos`: But still, I think it depends on what you mean by "manual". 2020-07-18T04:30:41Z avalos`: And what you mean by "modularity" and "performance". 2020-07-18T04:30:49Z beach: To make modularity possible, people using languages with manual memory management often introduce things like smart pointers or reference counters. And then they take a factor 50 or more performance hit compared to garbage collection. 2020-07-18T04:32:04Z beach: avalos`: I mean if you pass an object to a module, modularity dictates that you shouldn't need to know whether that module keeps a reference to your object, so that it is still alive, or whether it does not, so you need to deallocate the space taken up by it. 2020-07-18T04:32:20Z avalos`: Good point. 2020-07-18T04:32:23Z beach: So you have two choices... 2020-07-18T04:32:39Z beach: 1. Know what the module does internally, so your code is no longer modular. 2020-07-18T04:32:59Z beach: 2. Copy the object, or use reference counters. Then your code is no longer fast. 2020-07-18T04:34:11Z OpenZen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-18T04:35:27Z avalos`: What if you don't need too many checks? Garbage collection can be a bit too much, especially when you perform expensive IO operation or else. 2020-07-18T04:35:47Z beach: That is a case when modularity is not so much needed. 2020-07-18T04:36:20Z avalos`: True. 2020-07-18T04:36:45Z beach: But people using languages without automatic memory management often believe that their code is fast, just because the compiler is "known to produce fast code". But then they ruin the performance by replacing a register move by a function call, a test, and several memory accesses. 2020-07-18T04:37:38Z beach: However, since they never compare the performance of their code to a similar code written in a language with automatic memory management, they feel safe in their belief that their code is fast. 2020-07-18T04:41:17Z xristos: note that you have the option for manual memory management (with some constraints) in CL 2020-07-18T04:41:37Z beach: So we have huge amounts of code written by hordes of programmers who think that "we need all the speed we can get", but that code is not particularly fast in the first place. Plus, they took an order of magnitude more time to produce that code, and the result is full of security vulnerabilities. That's the sad state of software production these days. 2020-07-18T04:45:36Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-18T04:47:02Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-18T04:47:48Z markasoftware: I'm today learning about format's conditionals and loops, it's pretty crazy 2020-07-18T04:47:59Z markasoftware: i wish the same people who designed (format) got to design regex 2020-07-18T04:54:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T04:56:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-18T04:56:16Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-07-18T05:02:17Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-18T05:04:39Z anatrope joined #lisp 2020-07-18T05:07:16Z kleptoflora quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-18T05:16:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-18T05:22:34Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-18T05:26:32Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-18T05:29:53Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-18T05:30:13Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-18T05:30:33Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2020-07-18T05:41:57Z vutral quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-18T05:47:40Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-07-18T05:52:54Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-07-18T05:53:46Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:06:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T06:06:59Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-18T06:08:12Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:11:17Z kmeow quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T06:11:49Z kmeow joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:15:18Z bsd4me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-18T06:29:29Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:31:36Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-18T06:39:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T06:39:25Z paulbarrett joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:40:40Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:41:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:43:20Z rabbit_05 joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:44:32Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:44:51Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:45:08Z technobean joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:45:59Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:46:46Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:50:28Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-07-18T06:51:04Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:51:06Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T06:52:21Z younder quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-18T06:58:09Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2020-07-18T06:58:35Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T07:04:25Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T07:05:11Z zooey joined #lisp 2020-07-18T07:11:12Z glamas quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in) 2020-07-18T07:11:27Z phoe: oh boy 2020-07-18T07:11:37Z beach: Hey phoe. 2020-07-18T07:11:45Z phoe: vseloved's Programming Algorithms book will also get an Apress edition 2020-07-18T07:11:48Z phoe: hey beach 2020-07-18T07:12:22Z beach: Nice! That one still needs a lot of work. 2020-07-18T07:12:28Z beach: I gave up after a while. 2020-07-18T07:13:05Z h11 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-18T07:13:30Z h11 joined #lisp 2020-07-18T07:14:58Z glamas joined #lisp 2020-07-18T07:15:39Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-07-18T07:18:36Z brown121407 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T07:18:42Z phoe: you might want to contact vseloved in order to be a technical reviewer for it 2020-07-18T07:19:15Z phoe: I know too little about algorithms to be able to make any sane reviews 2020-07-18T07:19:40Z avalos` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T07:20:14Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2020-07-18T07:23:37Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-18T07:23:52Z beach: I don't think I will. Too many times he disagreed with my remarks and didn't take them into account. Plus, a lot of the problem are still related to the English language. 2020-07-18T07:24:08Z beach: The algorithms themselves are probably fine. 2020-07-18T07:24:14Z beach: He's the expert after all. 2020-07-18T07:24:24Z phoe: I see 2020-07-18T07:24:37Z contrapunctus: beach, xristos: re: this performance paradox, is there any writeup which explores this phenomenon in detail? 2020-07-18T07:24:40Z beach: But the code and the text both need a lot of work to be acceptable, and he basically doesn't agree. 2020-07-18T07:24:49Z glamas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-18T07:24:55Z beach: contrapunctus: I don't think so, no. 2020-07-18T07:25:32Z h11 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-18T07:25:57Z beach: contrapunctus: There is very little work done in the domain of comparison between programming languages. And for good reasons. The cost of such an investigation would be huge, if it is to be scientifically valid. 2020-07-18T07:26:11Z contrapunctus: It'd be nice to have something of the sort, to make an attempt to educate people. Many may not know about the manual memory management in CL, either, which would be a welcome addition to such a writeup. 2020-07-18T07:27:48Z beach: People just won't believe you unless you can point to hard evidence, and maybe not even then. The manual memory management in Common Lisp would be highly specific to an implementation. 2020-07-18T07:28:58Z contrapunctus: The other day someone (who had written some CL packages and programs) mentioned not having used CL for ages, and using C++ instead, because they weren't satisfied with the performance in the case of games. 2020-07-18T07:29:07Z beach: I mean, every C++ programmer who were to read the paper by Hudak and Jones, would instantly convert to Haskell if they believed it. 2020-07-18T07:29:25Z contrapunctus: (Which makes me wonder if they knew what you speak of.) 2020-07-18T07:29:27Z pve joined #lisp 2020-07-18T07:30:40Z beach: Performance is not so much a language issue as it is an implementation issue. But there is also the problem that most people do not understand that code that looks similar in two different languages have different semantics. 2020-07-18T07:31:05Z paulbarrett quit (Quit: paulbarrett) 2020-07-18T07:31:06Z glamas joined #lisp 2020-07-18T07:31:24Z beach: So if you translate (say) addition from C++ to Common Lisp, and you don't realize that C++ implements modulo arithmetic and Common Lisp has bignums, then you may very well get it wrong. 2020-07-18T07:33:05Z beach: In other words, if you compare a safe and slow program to an unsafe and fast one in a different language, you are comparing apples and oranges. 2020-07-18T07:33:46Z beach: And, again, if you don't care about modularity, you might get faster code with manual memory management. My impression is that game development falls into that category. 2020-07-18T07:37:21Z beach: Another factor is that most existing Common Lisp implementations were implemented several decades ago, and are probably still not using techniques for memory management that were invented since then. So, if you take a Common Lisp implementation with a stop-the-world garbage collector you are not going to see good real-time performance for example. 2020-07-18T07:37:55Z aaaaaa joined #lisp 2020-07-18T07:38:30Z contrapunctus: Yow. 2020-07-18T07:41:09Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-07-18T07:44:35Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-18T08:04:25Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-18T08:05:52Z fanta1 joined #lisp 2020-07-18T08:06:42Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T08:07:45Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-07-18T08:11:18Z jackdaniel: programming tao 15: performance is not a trait of the language but the implementation.. but don't expect python to be fast 2020-07-18T08:14:13Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-07-18T08:14:30Z iissaacc: sup my gs 2020-07-18T08:14:55Z beach: ? 2020-07-18T08:16:27Z iissaacc: its a greeting my g 2020-07-18T08:17:15Z beach: May I suggest you do M-x set-global-abbrevgswhatever gs means 2020-07-18T08:18:32Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-18T08:27:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-18T08:28:23Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T08:28:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-18T08:30:36Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-07-18T08:36:03Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T08:36:59Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-07-18T08:37:21Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-07-18T08:40:54Z rabbit_05 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-18T08:42:06Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-07-18T08:47:17Z eta: beach, :D 2020-07-18T08:47:45Z eta: beach, have you considered writing some elisp to query Urban Dictionary 2020-07-18T08:48:33Z beach: After considering for a few seconds, I decided against it. 2020-07-18T08:50:18Z flip214: phoe: jackdaniel: sure, just make a MR. Although "collect" as a name might conflict with LOOP and ITERATE, so is there an alternative? 2020-07-18T08:50:43Z beach: Using silly abbreviations like that shows one or more of several things: 1. Your typing skills are not that great. 2. You don't master your tools, in particular not your abbrev processor. 3. You assume that everybody has read up on the urban dictionary. 2020-07-18T08:51:06Z phoe: flip214: it won't really conflict with LOOP 2020-07-18T08:51:18Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-18T08:51:28Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-18T08:51:38Z flip214: I guess that's a list with an end pointer for efficient appending... is there something to clear the list in-between, or to append multiple values at once? (like Perl's PUSH ARRAY, ELEMENTS...) 2020-07-18T08:52:19Z jackdaniel: flip214: collect macro (as defined in cmucl) allows supplying your own collectors 2020-07-18T08:52:33Z jackdaniel: so in principle it is possible to manipulate any object 2020-07-18T08:52:59Z beach: I hate it that SLIME ruins my Emacs tags-search command by hijacking M-. 2020-07-18T08:52:59Z jackdaniel: and adding multiple elements is supported if the collector operator supports multiple arguments (in case of default list collector it does) 2020-07-18T08:53:09Z flip214: well, yeah, I needed something like that in the past, so I definitely can see the use case 2020-07-18T08:53:47Z jackdaniel: one drawback, as note by lukego, is that the collector binding is not a function - it is a macro 2020-07-18T08:53:58Z jackdaniel: s/note/noted/ 2020-07-18T08:54:38Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T08:54:49Z lukego: beach: Emacs should really have some framework for combining multiple tags-like things. I wonder if it does these days? I'm still getting my head around all the new stuff like company/ivy/helm (can't even remember which is which yet...) 2020-07-18T08:55:20Z beach: Sure, that would be good. 2020-07-18T08:55:25Z jackdaniel: flip214: another useful utility from cmu utilities is with-clean-symbols 2020-07-18T08:55:40Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-07-18T08:56:17Z jackdaniel: which is kind-of like gensym, but instead of creating variable with a gensymed symbol, it replaces all occurances of the symbol in the body with a gensym 2020-07-18T08:57:19Z jackdaniel: i.e (with-clean-symbols (foo) (test (defclass foo () ()) (make-instance 'foo)))) ;-> each execution of this block will define a class of a different name 2020-07-18T08:57:31Z lukego: beach: I wonder if abbrevs would be a good solution for typing a lambda character. I've been a nerd and defined unicode lambda as a macro for LAMBDA but haven't solved the easy inputting problem yet. 2020-07-18T08:57:59Z beach: That would certainly work. 2020-07-18T08:58:54Z beach: I use it for correcting some recurring typos I make. Like my fingers seem unable to type "the". They always come up with "teh" instead. So I use abbrevs to correct. 2020-07-18T08:59:26Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-18T08:59:39Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-18T09:01:25Z flip214: jackdaniel: well, bring' it on! 2020-07-18T09:02:10Z jackdaniel looks carefully in his pocket for some spare time -- empty :) 2020-07-18T09:02:47Z jackdaniel: because it would be absurd if I had some antimatter in my pocket, right? 2020-07-18T09:04:56Z beach: It wouldn't be around for very long. 2020-07-18T09:05:18Z jackdaniel: heh 2020-07-18T09:08:59Z phoe: neither would his pocket 2020-07-18T09:09:59Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-07-18T09:11:01Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-18T09:11:01Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-07-18T09:11:01Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-07-18T09:11:19Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-18T09:12:54Z brown121407 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-18T09:15:27Z beach: Yeah. 2020-07-18T09:16:07Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-07-18T09:17:01Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T09:17:58Z jackdaniel: one way to continue this joke would be rehashing the phrase, that there is no /spare time/, so /not very long/ would be a meaningless term ,) 2020-07-18T09:20:54Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-18T09:21:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-18T09:23:12Z kmeow quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-18T09:23:55Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-07-18T09:27:16Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-18T09:27:49Z flip214: jackdaniel: next time you're waiting for the dentist you might find too much "spare time" on your hands, so be sure to save it somewhere safe! 2020-07-18T09:29:50Z kelamir[m] quit (Quit: authenticating) 2020-07-18T09:29:57Z kelamir[m] joined #lisp 2020-07-18T09:34:25Z jackdaniel: is it some kind of elaborate way of saying, that you'd rather had my packet exploded? ;p 2020-07-18T09:38:18Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-18T09:38:38Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-18T09:56:10Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-07-18T09:57:08Z boeg quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-18T10:03:37Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T10:04:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-18T10:04:28Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-18T10:11:46Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-07-18T10:12:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-18T10:13:09Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-07-18T10:13:49Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-07-18T10:16:54Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-07-18T10:17:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-07-18T10:23:33Z brown121407 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T10:23:34Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-18T10:31:08Z cranes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-18T10:33:35Z lukego: why didn't ITERATE win over LOOP? 2020-07-18T10:39:20Z shka_: lukego: loop is standard, iterate is not 2020-07-18T10:39:46Z shka_: also, iterate uses code walking that produces some ugly problems sometimes 2020-07-18T10:39:47Z shka_: for instance 2020-07-18T10:40:11Z lukego: I'm noticing serapeum for the first time now too, looks like a worthy addition to the toolbox 2020-07-18T10:40:15Z shka_: (iterate (for elt in list) (sum (count 0 elt))) 2020-07-18T10:40:40Z shka_: and honestly, extending iteratate is not that good 2020-07-18T10:40:52Z shka_: i like iterate personally, but i must admit that it has problems 2020-07-18T10:41:00Z shka_: serapeum is cool 2020-07-18T10:42:47Z flip214: shka_: I think the dwim.hu version doesn't code walk 2020-07-18T10:43:02Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-07-18T10:43:03Z shka_: i don't know this version 2020-07-18T10:43:31Z shka_: oh, and there is this code moving in iterate that can bite your ass 2020-07-18T10:44:00Z shka_: and let me reiterate: I LIKE ITERATE despite those issues 2020-07-18T10:44:07Z shka_: ;-) 2020-07-18T10:44:23Z flip214: yeah, I use it too 2020-07-18T10:44:36Z shka_: ^5 2020-07-18T10:44:39Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-18T10:44:52Z bhartrihari joined #lisp 2020-07-18T10:47:10Z flip214: I just wished that CL-WHO would include ITERATE support by default 2020-07-18T10:47:12Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-18T10:52:14Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-07-18T10:54:34Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-18T10:55:05Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-07-18T11:00:53Z RedMallet joined #lisp 2020-07-18T11:01:24Z bhartrihari left #lisp 2020-07-18T11:03:28Z nirved: (iterate (for elt in lis