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2020-07-01T03:17:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-07-01T07:21:03Z nate48423: the american government and denaro are getting my human brain they are able to have me not able to comprehend and change my taste of drinks and food at times. can you please tell your world leaders to help me I am  nathan biernatt if you have questions you can message me
2020-07-01T07:21:25Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe
2020-07-01T07:21:30Z phoe has set mode +b *!*nate48423@50.105.119.*
2020-07-01T07:21:30Z nate48423 [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (okay)
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2020-07-01T09:54:12Z jdz: Xach: sr.ht supports Mercurial, so maybe some authors may want to move the projects there?
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2020-07-01T10:31:15Z adlai: should typos in the hyperspec be corrected in the hyperspec, rather than left as found, for consistency with the original standards document?
2020-07-01T10:31:48Z adlai: e.g., :pre-line-prefix in paragraph 3 of http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_ppr_lo.htm
2020-07-01T10:33:11Z _death: they should be noted in https://www.cliki.net/ANSI%20Clarifications%20and%20Errata .. which already has this one
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2020-07-01T10:49:31Z adlai: _death: thank you
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2020-07-01T10:55:51Z phoe: adlai: CLHS is immutable because of its licensing
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2020-07-01T11:13:56Z adlai: who here is familiar with the workings of quickdocs? I am displeased that it does not list any Requirements in http://quickdocs.org/scalpl
2020-07-01T11:15:00Z adlai is currently reading through a likely culprit, https://github.com/quickdocs/quickdocs-extracter
2020-07-01T11:18:33Z adlai wonders whether there is a specific reason that quickdocs.org has not updated the quicklisp dist since december 2019
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2020-07-01T11:30:16Z phoe: adlai: fukamachiware™
2020-07-01T11:30:58Z phoe: or alternatively Yet Another Abandoned Lisp Project That Is Half-Useful Half-Harmful™
2020-07-01T11:31:09Z phoe: and it's not like I'm without fault here, UltraSpec also belongs on that list
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2020-07-01T11:32:28Z adlai adjusts phoe's Venn diagram: there are useless harms, useful harmlessnesses, etc
2020-07-01T11:33:14Z adlai: or perhaps: "The opposite of 'abandoned' is not 'maintained'."
2020-07-01T11:33:35Z phoe: yes, correct
2020-07-01T11:33:51Z Xach: Hmm, bitbucket has not yet deleted hg repos.
2020-07-01T11:33:54Z adlai: at least you didn't say "yeah, right", then we'd both be confused
2020-07-01T11:33:58Z phoe: there are projects that don't cause confusion when they are left unmaintained.
2020-07-01T11:34:02Z phoe: or abandoned.
2020-07-01T11:34:06Z phoe: or just don't see activity.
2020-07-01T11:34:09Z Xach: I wonder if they're just going through them alphabetically
2020-07-01T11:34:15Z Xach: one per day
2020-07-01T11:34:25Z phoe: projects that are supposed to be always fresh don't belong on that list though
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2020-07-01T11:35:30Z adlai: e.g., sheeple has had neither new features, nor bugs fixed, for about a decade, and I consider that library both maintained and abandoned
2020-07-01T11:36:38Z phoe: it's also called "complete"
2020-07-01T11:36:49Z adlai: apparently a handful of other libraries depend on it to a sufficiently minor degree that it does not require any of the unfinished work to be continued
2020-07-01T11:37:19Z adlai: it could arguably be considered complete, although iirc it is quite far from having thorough test coverage
2020-07-01T11:37:52Z splittist: discovery is a hard problem exacerbated by the community's penchant for quirky naming
2020-07-01T11:39:08Z adlai recalls burning out somewhere between "reach sufficient unit test coverage that the lock-free parallelizable parts can be identified", and "steal yet another optimiziation from the open-source CLOS implementations"
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2020-07-01T11:40:03Z _death: "complete" is a myth.. many libraries can easily be improved upon
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2020-07-01T11:41:36Z phoe: _death: okay, s/complete/good enough/
2020-07-01T11:42:04Z splittist: complete === perfect?
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2020-07-01T11:44:56Z adlai: only in normative linguistics does (eq english:complete english:perfect) return T
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2020-07-01T11:46:01Z adlai: since the "perfect tense" is used for actions that have been completed by the time of their description
2020-07-01T11:47:38Z adlai: a metaphor that I've always found helpful when thinking about software vitrification is that of annealing, where eventually it becomes impossible to tell whether the local optimum is the global one, although you don't care anymore, because the search space has been constrained such that the local optimum is by definition the optimal optimum.
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2020-07-01T12:16:16Z _death: it doesn't always go towards stability.. maybe software seismology is more apt
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2020-07-01T12:29:40Z Xach: clontinental drift
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2020-07-01T13:24:25Z adlai: it gets even worse when you combine the inherent instabilities of software seismology, with attempts to reason about it using floating-point arithmetic.
2020-07-01T13:24:48Z adlai: speaking of sheeple, I wonder what ever happened to CLON
2020-07-01T13:26:50Z Xach: which one?
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2020-07-01T13:27:14Z adlai: the "CL Object Network". this is actually unfortunate, the author decided to scrub away most of his work from the public internet. oh well.
2020-07-01T13:27:38Z phoe: https://www.cliki.net/Clon
2020-07-01T13:27:39Z phoe: there's three
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2020-07-01T13:29:03Z adlai remembers enjoying DTO's games, a decade ago.
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2020-07-01T13:41:19Z adlai can't tell what exactly went wrong, other than a disagreement over intellectual property; anyway, this is off-topic
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2020-07-01T16:11:16Z joels: Hello all
2020-07-01T16:11:32Z beach: Hello joels.
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2020-07-01T16:12:52Z beach: joels: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
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2020-07-01T16:13:16Z joels: Yes quite new. new to #Lisp and new to Lisp ;)
2020-07-01T16:13:30Z beach: Great!  Welcome!
2020-07-01T16:13:36Z joels: Thanks thanks
2020-07-01T16:13:44Z phoe: hey hi helloooo
2020-07-01T16:14:00Z beach: joels: There is also #clschool for truly elementary questions.
2020-07-01T16:14:09Z joels: thanks
2020-07-01T16:14:33Z beach: So you plan to learn Common Lisp?
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2020-07-01T16:15:50Z phoe: beach's question stems from the fact that #lisp is a Common Lisp place; other lisp dialects have their own channels, like #racket, #scheme, #clojure and so forth
2020-07-01T16:15:51Z joels: Would like to do that at some point.
2020-07-01T16:16:02Z phoe: there's also #lispcafe for general off-topic discussions and general hanging out
2020-07-01T16:16:15Z joels: ah #lispcafe sounds good
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2020-07-01T16:17:59Z joels: If I recall, the book "land of lisp" is on CL. do you find it a good introduction ?
2020-07-01T16:18:32Z beach: If you already know how to program in some other language, the general recommendation is PCL.
2020-07-01T16:18:40Z beach: minion: Please tell joels about PCL.
2020-07-01T16:18:40Z minion: joels: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-07-01T16:19:07Z joels: ah
2020-07-01T16:19:54Z joels: Thanks
2020-07-01T16:20:12Z beach: His advice about a development environment is a bit dated.  These days we recommend Portacle, unless you already use Emacs, in which case we just recommend you install SLIME.
2020-07-01T16:21:42Z joels: Emacs is fine ;)
2020-07-01T16:21:53Z phoe: perfect then
2020-07-01T16:22:04Z joels: I have tried my hands on a tiny bit of emacs-lisp
2020-07-01T16:22:30Z beach: I should have said we recommend you install Quicklisp and then use Quicklisp to install SLIME.
2020-07-01T16:22:57Z beach: joels: You should not have much trouble with Common Lisp then.
2020-07-01T16:23:02Z joels: Oh thats another question by the way what is the CL implementation to use SBCL?
2020-07-01T16:23:08Z phoe: SBCL is the most popular one
2020-07-01T16:23:18Z phoe: so also the most supported one, I guess
2020-07-01T16:23:31Z joels: cool
2020-07-01T16:23:58Z phoe: if you use any kind of emacs distribution such as spacemacs and/or doom emacs, then you can follow its instructions for installing CL stuff
2020-07-01T16:24:10Z phoe: for instance, spacemacs has its common-lisp layer that includes slime along with its configuration
2020-07-01T16:24:14Z phoe: I'm using it that way
2020-07-01T16:24:24Z phoe: otherwise, use quicklisp and (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)
2020-07-01T16:24:29Z joels: ah
2020-07-01T16:24:41Z phoe: then emacs should become slime-aware
2020-07-01T16:24:48Z phoe: and mostly configured to use it
2020-07-01T16:25:11Z joels: Thanks for the help
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2020-07-01T16:35:47Z joels: that seemed to work actually. cool. (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)
2020-07-01T16:36:25Z joels: emacs is in "Lisp adoc Slime" mode
2020-07-01T16:37:04Z phoe: you mean the repl, or a Lisp file?
2020-07-01T16:37:22Z joels: lisp file
2020-07-01T16:37:27Z phoe: looks OK
2020-07-01T16:38:46Z joels: M-x slime started a repl
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2020-07-01T16:40:03Z phoe: perfect
2020-07-01T16:40:05Z phoe: happy hacking!
2020-07-01T16:40:29Z joels: thansk
2020-07-01T16:40:35Z phoe: no rpoblem
2020-07-01T16:43:11Z joels: This will take some time getting used to ;)
2020-07-01T16:44:50Z beach: joels: A typical way of working would be to split the Emacs frame into a REPL window and a source-file window.
2020-07-01T16:46:01Z beach: joels: You would then type your code in the source file and either compile it with C-c C-k (if I remember correctly), or when you learn a bit more, you would create an ASDF file and load your code that way.
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2020-07-01T16:47:48Z phoe: https://i.imgur.com/QtORSkj.png <- that's what my emacs window looks like right now
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2020-07-01T16:48:12Z phoe: I do C-c on the left pane to compile-and-load individual functions
2020-07-01T16:48:18Z phoe: or rather, forms
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2020-07-01T16:49:07Z joels: Right having a repl and editor open side by side is very nice
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2020-07-01T16:49:25Z joels: I managed to load a file by doing (load "apa.lisp")
2020-07-01T16:50:28Z phoe: that's one way of loading files in Lisp
2020-07-01T16:50:33Z phoe: not very slimeful
2020-07-01T16:50:36Z phoe: but possbile
2020-07-01T16:50:48Z phoe: usually I open a Lisp file and do C-c C-k to compile-and-load the whole file
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2020-07-01T16:52:06Z joels: right. C-c C-k seems fine
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2020-07-01T17:00:54Z Josh_2: Evening
2020-07-01T17:01:05Z joels: Good evening
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2020-07-01T17:18:47Z names: _whitelogger jesse1010 X-Scale random-nick frgo_ Cymew gko ech fluxwave mathrick bhartrihari bocaneri gravicappa shka_ edgar-rft zaquest davsebamse vhost- igemnace cmatei beach heredoc _roman_ Xach arbv MightyJoe sgithens travv0 yonkunas flocks Krystof scymtym justache emacsomancer karlosz dale dilated_dinosaur jibanes lavaflow notzmv hineios730393479 jackdaniel theBlackDragon d4ryus HiRE APic liamz[m] sammich katco even4void[m] cairn Gnuxie[m]
2020-07-01T17:18:47Z names: infra_red[m] MrtnDk[m] camlriot42 userself unl0ckd nckx oxum DGASAU teej bytesighs physpi fowlduck drmeister Kaisyu jlpeters asedeno tfb thecoffemaker Harag Aurora_v_kosmose bonz060 h11 doublex Yardanico hhdave v3ga madage joast funnel gigetoo epony chipolux akkad gxt Lord_Nightmare Necktwi jello_pudding nitrix vaporatorius stux|RC splittist oldtopman loli Posterdati kopiyka datajerk liberliver solrize sz0 quazimodo CrazyEddy karstensrage srji entel jasom
2020-07-01T17:18:47Z names: Frobozz simplegauss null_ptr xristos devrtz_ cg505 abbe Archenoth Kaisyu7 hiroaki Mandus Zotan ChoHag xlei shymega rixard grobe0ba Khisanth Fade eta mrSpec nullman narendraj9 _Ark_ White_Flame malm nullheroes mtd SAL9000 eagleflo voidlily shrysr spacebat1 axion hjudt neheist2 dlowe avicenna seisatsu q-u-a-n2 Tordek mpontillo rme selwyn vert2 easye thijso bacterio niceplace minion vsync madand nightfly_ jmercouris terrorjack r3x5- Nikotiini kini Ekho copec
2020-07-01T17:18:47Z names: Kabriel_ dnm alandipert penguwin shinohai hvxgr gabiruh ult gjnoonan tazjin vutral chewbranca parisienne___ p_l conjunctive mgsk lukego gaze__ billstclair ssd532 l1x Firedancer_ eMBee ski boeg idxu drewc kilimanjaro pent saturn2 stylewarning johs hiredman CommanderViral felideon rabuf eschatologist kim\ jackhill phoe mbrumlow_ spal jerme_ cpt_nemo lispyone_ yottabyte hydan interruptinuse larme knobo Grauwolf moon-child markasoftware dxtr HDurer _death
2020-07-01T17:18:47Z names: leo_song OMGOMG guaqua esotericalgo lieven z0d xi fiddlerwoaroof tomaw natj212 phadthai ft azrazalea ssake jurov ck_ tessier zymurgy femi borodust Robdgreat kingcons kbtr_ lonjil cdegroot mgsk_ mood wigust dim cods mjl jbgg gabot micro_ justinmcp drainful catern rumpelszn Grue`` Demosthenex Balooga banjiewen bkst_ ecraven ioa creat @fe[nl]ix Blkt otwieracz sveit beaky gingerale Odin- SumoSud0- antoszka chrpape cross gko`` snits pok jfb4_ cgay
2020-07-01T17:18:47Z names: AdmiralBumbleBee shenghi GreaseMonkey lowryder trittweiler add^_ himmAllRight brass stux|RC-only SomeB housel rvirding jhei ffwacom Inoperable Guest9274 aap jxy ozzloy nydel trn c_nix zagura swflint |3b| thonkpod jsatk lad fengshaun grumble cracauer XachX RagnarDanneskjol astronavt [df] payphone drot cybercafe rotty mgr_ flip214 cpape TMA MetaYan matijja luis Ankhers jgkamat kapil_ sbryant mr_yogurt yang
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2020-07-01T17:28:06Z phoe: joels: yes, so far it's implementing https://www.redblobgames.com/grids/hexagons/
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2020-07-01T17:30:51Z joels: looks cool
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2020-07-01T17:32:49Z phoe: and annoying
2020-07-01T17:32:55Z phoe: I am not used to this coordinate system
2020-07-01T17:33:25Z joels: Yeah. But I guess that is part of the challenge
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2020-07-01T17:34:01Z joels: Is that the basis of some graphical top down view strategy of some sort?
2020-07-01T17:34:30Z phoe: yes
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2020-07-01T17:36:04Z joels: Sounds like fun. good luck
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2020-07-01T17:48:53Z phoe: <3
2020-07-01T17:48:54Z phoe: thankee
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2020-07-02T03:07:56Z beach` is now known as beach
2020-07-02T03:10:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-07-02T03:50:57Z Oladon: Morning, beach!
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2020-07-02T05:11:55Z KaiLikesLinux: Lots of joins and leaves today
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2020-07-02T05:18:12Z beach: KaiLikesLinux: I am guessing that is because there are a lot of participants.  Statistically, that would imply more joins and leaves.
2020-07-02T05:18:25Z beach: KaiLikesLinux: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2020-07-02T05:18:31Z KaiLikesLinux: beach: It makes sense, but still, and yes I am brand new
2020-07-02T05:18:48Z beach: Great!  Welcome!  What brings you to #lisp?
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2020-07-02T05:19:37Z KaiLikesLinux: I am a fan of lisp languages (Clojure and Common Lisp are my favorites), and am currently developing a Lisp inspired Markup language that translates into HTML
2020-07-02T05:19:50Z beach: I see.
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2020-07-02T05:20:37Z KaiLikesLinux: Yeah, I need to learn Common again, lost that knowledge out of just not practicing, but I will get back on it
2020-07-02T05:21:29Z beach: Sounds good.  Do you develop this thing in order to practice, or is it meant to be useful?  I am asking because I believe there are already some markup systems based on Common Lisp out there.
2020-07-02T05:23:32Z KaiLikesLinux: It is meant to be useful. This one is directly for websites, because I got sick of HTML. It is also supposed to make sense, and maybe add things like variables on HTML. I also want to make a scripting language for it, plus a CSS framework for it. A lot of it is inspired by PugJS too
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2020-07-02T05:25:10Z beach: The web is not one of my domains of expertise, but it does sound very fancy.
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2020-07-02T05:26:31Z KaiLikesLinux: it isn't. It is so easy I made my MEML project (lisp markup for web) a transpiler, not even a compiler to HTML code
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2020-07-02T06:08:57Z phoe: KaiLikesLinux: hey hi
2020-07-02T06:09:13Z phoe: AFAIK there already are such projects, CL-WHO and others - you can take a look at them for inspiration
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2020-07-02T06:15:41Z KaiLikesLinux: phoe: Thank you, and will go
2020-07-02T06:15:45Z KaiLikesLinux: will do*
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2020-07-02T07:08:06Z KaiLikesLinux: Welcome Joels and PVE
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2020-07-02T07:10:53Z KaiLikesLinux: hello zaquest
2020-07-02T07:11:12Z zaquest: hello
2020-07-02T07:11:35Z beach: KaiLikesLinux: It is not going to be useful to greet anyone that joins.  It will just create a lot of noise.
2020-07-02T07:11:47Z KaiLikesLinux: beach: ah, sorry
2020-07-02T07:12:07Z KaiLikesLinux: I am still too used to the flow of discord and telegram
2020-07-02T07:12:14Z beach: I usually greet people who announce their arrival.  That way, I know they are not just lurkers.
2020-07-02T07:12:25Z KaiLikesLinux: fair
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2020-07-02T07:14:25Z contrapunctus: Does anyone know of an s-expression alternative to MusicXML?
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2020-07-02T07:15:38Z joels: Good morning
2020-07-02T07:15:52Z KaiLikesLinux: Good mornin!
2020-07-02T07:18:02Z phoe: KaiLikesLinux: I personally mute joins and parts, since they're tons of noise
2020-07-02T07:18:16Z phoe: if someone is offline and I want to leave them a message, there's a bot over here that provides memo functionality
2020-07-02T07:18:24Z phoe: minion: memo for KaiLikesLinux: like that, for instance
2020-07-02T07:18:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell KaiLikesLinux when he/she/it next speaks.
2020-07-02T07:18:59Z phoe: otherwise, typing e.g. "Good morning everyone!" is a good way to let everyone know that you greet and would like to be greeted
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2020-07-02T07:20:02Z phoe: at least around here, I think that greeting random people would most likely mean that you require something from them - at least that's how I'd feel if I got a random "hello" from a person I don't recognize
2020-07-02T07:20:24Z contrapunctus: minion: I find it so much more elegant to just write "they"
2020-07-02T07:20:25Z minion: I find it so much more elegant to just write "they": An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/I%20find%20it%20so%20much%20more%20elegant%20to%20just%20write%20\"they\"?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 87..
2020-07-02T07:20:27Z joels: I just ordered "practical common lisp" as per recommendation ;)
2020-07-02T07:20:50Z phoe: contrapunctus: minion is a bot
2020-07-02T07:21:06Z phoe: joels: also http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2020-07-02T07:21:34Z phoe: contrapunctus: https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/blob/09bfce724afd20c91a08acde8816be6faf5f54b2/minion/minion.lisp#L547
2020-07-02T07:21:58Z joels: oh cool. I do like having the physical copy though
2020-07-02T07:22:06Z phoe: I know the feeling
2020-07-02T07:22:39Z beach: contrapunctus: Are you working on music software?
2020-07-02T07:22:41Z joels: But a digital version is also cool to dip into while programming
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2020-07-02T07:22:59Z adlai: minion: english
2020-07-02T07:23:01Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``english''.
2020-07-02T07:23:45Z adlai: minion: cliki
2020-07-02T07:23:46Z minion: cliki: index: https://www.cliki.net/index
2020-07-02T07:23:49Z contrapunctus: beach: thinking of it.
2020-07-02T07:24:10Z adlai: minion: minion
2020-07-02T07:24:10Z minion: minion: https://www.cliki.net/minion
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2020-07-02T07:24:19Z contrapunctus: phoe: thanks, I sent that deliberately 😀
2020-07-02T07:24:38Z phoe: contrapunctus: might want to send a PR too
2020-07-02T07:24:39Z contrapunctus: (Although I didn't expect the error.)
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2020-07-02T07:25:09Z contrapunctus: Ah, so that's what you meant. Thanks, I'll consider it 🙂
2020-07-02T07:25:23Z beach: contrapunctus: Great!  For your information, I am planning version 2 of Gsharp, called Clovetree.  It will use McCLIM for displaying the result and it will use essentially the same layout algorithm, but the presentation will use new font technology.
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2020-07-02T07:26:11Z adlai: my guess, contrapunctus, is that the author of the fragment "when he/she/it next speaks" probably anticipated that IRC conversations might plausibly involve more than one bot.
2020-07-02T07:26:12Z beach: contrapunctus: jackdaniel has a task to work on the GUI, which is something I am not very good at.
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2020-07-02T07:27:09Z contrapunctus: beach: Sounds fancy 🙂 I'm thinking of making a performance-oriented viewer for music, which will read MusicXML. I was also hoping for some s-exp format too, so I set about to look if one already exists.
2020-07-02T07:27:27Z beach: contrapunctus: That sounds quite useful.
2020-07-02T07:30:15Z phoe: XML in general can be expressed neatly using s-expressions
2020-07-02T07:30:30Z contrapunctus: beach: PDF/images irk me as a music format, so I'd like to make something reflowable, which adapts to the screen (no blank spaces), whose display is customizable (font, weight, color, etc), which never cuts off musical information midway (e.g. half a note displayed, or half a staff displayed, etc - as can happen with images), and can scroll in a music-aware manner (e.g. scrolling by musical units - bea
2020-07-02T07:30:30Z contrapunctus: ts, bars, displayed lines)
2020-07-02T07:30:37Z phoe: so perhaps a simple means of converting XML into sexprs would be a good starting point
2020-07-02T07:31:14Z phoe: you're going to do it anyway if you want to parse XML in Lisp (though most likely that'll get parsed into some sort of objects and not into literal list structure)
2020-07-02T07:31:22Z beach: contrapunctus: I see.  Like I said, sounds quite useful.
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2020-07-02T07:32:23Z contrapunctus: Thanks 😁 I hope it also draws more attention to Lisp.
2020-07-02T07:32:30Z beach: Yeah.
2020-07-02T07:32:40Z adlai: contrapunctus: what do you do about legato markings that span measures?
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2020-07-02T07:34:37Z contrapunctus: adlai: thanks, I hadn't thought about that. I've seen typesetters break them, so that's an option. Or we could be smarter and try to fit them onto one line if we can, adjusting the display of the adjoining lines 🤔 Or something else?
2020-07-02T07:36:29Z adlai has invariably experienced rage when e.g. G.Henle arranges measures as though people are buying the scores for their value as fishwrap, rather than considering the phrases as poetry that should actually be arranged in a semantically-aware manner
2020-07-02T07:36:53Z contrapunctus: phoe: I was hoping to know of any such representations which are already implemented, which would help me handle the issues they've found...but if there aren't any, then I'll make my own, as you suggest. Say, why would I want them to be 'objects' rather than a list? 🤔
2020-07-02T07:37:09Z phoe: contrapunctus: check out plump
2020-07-02T07:37:19Z phoe: it's a XML parser that parses into a set of standard objects
2020-07-02T07:37:26Z adlai: you might find algorithms worth stealing in and around emacs's fill-paragraph code
2020-07-02T07:37:41Z phoe: you should be able to inspect the result of plump parsing and see how the parse result is structured internally
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2020-07-02T07:38:58Z contrapunctus: .o(lmao, DDG results for 'lisp plump' after the GitHub result 😂)
2020-07-02T07:39:14Z momozor: Hi. How do I actually pass a `spliced values from a list` for (defun f (&rest spliced-values))? My attempt is something like this -
2020-07-02T07:39:29Z momozor: (f (values-list '(1 2 3))
2020-07-02T07:39:41Z phoe: you don't want that
2020-07-02T07:39:45Z phoe: (apply #'f '(1 2 3))
2020-07-02T07:39:57Z adlai: to answer my own question, since you pointed it back at me, contrapunctus, I think that a legato marking is not always there to denote phrasing; splitting a phrase should be avoided, when possible, although splitting a short non-phrasing legato that links a few notes between measures should be avoided much more thoroughly. that is as bad as this kind of hyp-henation.
2020-07-02T07:40:01Z phoe: VALUES-LIST doesn't do what you think it does
2020-07-02T07:40:01Z momozor: oh thanks
2020-07-02T07:40:26Z phoe: it is related to multiple values, which are a different concept than function application
2020-07-02T07:40:36Z phoe: (f (values-list '(1 2 3)) === (f 1)
2020-07-02T07:40:51Z phoe: since only the primary value is taken into account here.
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2020-07-02T07:42:09Z momozor: ah I see
2020-07-02T07:42:48Z momozor: anyway, using apply works. Thanks!
2020-07-02T07:42:51Z phoe: multiple values are most useful at function boundaries, in order to avoid returning tuples
2020-07-02T07:42:51Z contrapunctus: adlai: I already see this veering into Lilypond/LaTeX levels of typesetting complexity 😁 Well, I'll certainly look into that (since it's primarily made for musicians to read) once I've got a MVP going. Thanks for sharing that concern.
2020-07-02T07:42:55Z phoe: momozor: <3
2020-07-02T07:44:22Z adlai: contrapunctus: regrettably, musicians often have opinions about two-dimensional arrangements, along with all the opinions about decibular timeseries.
2020-07-02T07:46:58Z contrapunctus: adlai: "decibular timeseries"? 🤔
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2020-07-02T07:48:28Z adlai: signal, noise, and everything in between
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2020-07-02T08:57:29Z _roman_: Hi. Maybe someone can help me understand locked packages in sbcl. I'm trying to get GBBopen to compile but keep getting a package-locked-error
2020-07-02T08:57:48Z beach: What is the error message?
2020-07-02T08:58:19Z _roman_: i put it in a gist at https://gist.github.com/romanab/e6cd0646bc2900d6051455af1481d498
2020-07-02T08:58:35Z beach: Usually, when a package lock is tripped, that means you are trying to define something that uses a standard Common Lisp symbol.
2020-07-02T08:58:57Z phoe: _roman_: why are you redefining SBCL internal stuff?
2020-07-02T08:59:09Z _roman_: what i find confusing is that it is wrapped in a sb-ext::without-package-locks
2020-07-02T08:59:15Z phoe: oh, wait, you're not, one second...
2020-07-02T08:59:24Z phoe: lemme see what is gbbopen
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2020-07-02T08:59:43Z phoe: what is the code inside "initiate.lisp"?
2020-07-02T09:00:14Z _roman_: just loads the system. ie a manual load file
2020-07-02T09:01:00Z phoe: https://github.com/lisp-mirror/GBBopen/blob/5518cb4de76714e4d5bc69f49cc5333d5a0249a7/source/tools/declared-numerics.lisp#L1113-L1121
2020-07-02T09:01:04Z phoe: this code is ugly and should be fixed
2020-07-02T09:01:34Z phoe: patching SBCL at runtime like that is a no-no I guess
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2020-07-02T09:02:15Z phoe: I guess you should make an issue about that, gbbopen seems to have some recent commits.
2020-07-02T09:02:19Z _roman_: yet if I manually put a sb-ext::without-package-locks around the form starting the module loading & the compilation, it goes thru fine
2020-07-02T09:03:41Z _roman_: i'm just curious about why sb-ext::without-package-locks works sometimes and not others
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2020-07-02T09:04:18Z phoe: because sb-impl::output-float-infinity doesn't seem to exist
2020-07-02T09:04:22Z phoe: and so the lock is violated at read-time
2020-07-02T09:04:35Z phoe: this is dead code
2020-07-02T09:05:37Z phoe: which shows the exact point why patching stuff like that is harmful
2020-07-02T09:05:53Z _roman_: but wouldn't that be also the case when I explicitly introduce the sb-ext::without-package-locks?
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2020-07-02T09:06:11Z phoe: what is your sbcl version?
2020-07-02T09:06:28Z phoe: that's confusing to me, yes; it should also be like that in the repl
2020-07-02T09:07:40Z phoe: https://pastebin.com/vGSah1aG
2020-07-02T09:07:41Z _roman_: This is SBCL 2.0.4
2020-07-02T09:07:42Z phoe: also works in the REPL
2020-07-02T09:07:52Z phoe: uh, works - errors I mean
2020-07-02T09:09:34Z _roman_: yes
2020-07-02T09:09:50Z phoe: if you do (without-package-locks ...) in the repl though, then the package is already unlocked by the time the file is read
2020-07-02T09:09:56Z phoe: so no error happens
2020-07-02T09:10:07Z phoe: I suggest to file an issue to have that dead code removed.
2020-07-02T09:11:49Z _roman_: ok. seems to be quiet since 2016 though
2020-07-02T09:12:52Z phoe: https://github.com/lisp-mirror/GBBopen has a relatively fresh commit
2020-07-02T09:13:22Z phoe: but, yes, that code seems unmaintained
2020-07-02T09:17:46Z _roman_: Thanks. I'm still not clear in my own head about the locks given that the #+sbcl conditionalization ought to activate the no locking before the defun (no?)
2020-07-02T09:18:28Z phoe: not really
2020-07-02T09:18:42Z phoe: #+sbcl causes the form to appear there only for SBCL
2020-07-02T09:18:53Z phoe: but then it tries to read "sb-impl::something"
2020-07-02T09:19:02Z phoe: the symbol does not exist there, so it must be interned
2020-07-02T09:19:09Z phoe: the act of interning trips the package lock
2020-07-02T09:19:12Z phoe: an error is signaled
2020-07-02T09:19:28Z phoe: all of this before sb-ext:without-package-locks is even compiled in
2020-07-02T09:19:35Z phoe: and before it has a chance to execute
2020-07-02T09:20:18Z _roman_: I see
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2020-07-02T09:22:50Z _roman_: a matter of timing so to speak
2020-07-02T09:22:56Z phoe: yesssss
2020-07-02T09:23:17Z phoe: does anyone have code for printing arbitrary hex grids as ASCII-art to console?
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2020-07-02T09:26:36Z _roman_: While looking at this, I came across "12.1.2 Implementation Packages" in the sbcl manual. Never heard of them nor could find any other documentation on them. Are they just a convention for code separation or something more? Any pointers where I might find more info?
2020-07-02T09:27:01Z beach: The former.
2020-07-02T09:27:07Z phoe: that's a SBCL thing
2020-07-02T09:27:16Z beach: It is just a way to divide the code into modules.
2020-07-02T09:27:29Z _roman_: ok
2020-07-02T09:27:37Z _roman_: thanks
2020-07-02T09:27:48Z beach: Sure.
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2020-07-02T13:14:15Z adlai: lonjil: continuing from #lispcafe - you may find this project can save you some time, and perhaps also has ideas worth stealing, should you work on implementing a replacement: https://quickref.common-lisp.net/cl-collider.html
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2020-07-02T13:38:12Z dlowe: CLX question - If I received a window ID from xlib:get-property, how can I convert that to a window so I can get its property?
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2020-07-02T13:40:40Z dlowe: also wow, CLX is copyright 1987 by Texas Instruments
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2020-07-02T13:42:34Z beach: dlowe: If I were you, I would ask the nice people in #clim.  They work a lot with CLX.
2020-07-02T13:43:20Z beach: dlowe: And, yes, I would very much like to see a new version of CLX, or perhaps something entirely different that uses the xrender extension exclusively.  Either way, something way more CLOS-y.
2020-07-02T13:45:05Z dlowe: yeah, I just think it's interesting that TI did it. I never would have guessed.
2020-07-02T13:45:17Z beach: Oh, I see.
2020-07-02T13:45:27Z dlowe: also that's it's old :)
2020-07-02T13:45:58Z beach: Yeah, and the reason it does not use generic functions and standard classes is that it predates the ANSI Common Lisp standard.
2020-07-02T13:46:28Z dlowe: ah, that makes sense.
2020-07-02T13:46:46Z dlowe: it would be quite the job to translate between models
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2020-07-02T13:48:01Z beach: "models"?  xrender and X core?
2020-07-02T13:49:25Z dlowe: clx-classes and clos
2020-07-02T13:49:40Z beach: Ah, I see.  Yes, a bit.
2020-07-02T13:49:42Z dlowe: the clx model adheres pretty closely to its xlib roots
2020-07-02T13:49:50Z tich: I would like to loop through a list collecting say the first 3 elements how do i do that
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2020-07-02T13:50:05Z phoe: tich: (subseq list 0 3)
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2020-07-02T13:50:24Z dlowe: tich: you might be interested in #clschool
2020-07-02T13:50:30Z phoe: (subseq '(a b c d e f g h) 0 3) ;=> (A B C)
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2020-07-02T13:54:31Z _death: the ANSI committee had graphics/windowing groups and there were discussions about CLOSifying CLX, and about CLUE as well
2020-07-02T13:54:57Z tich: My question was not clear enough I would like to go through a list in 3s (for-each-tripple (i j k) in '(a b c d e f g) collect (list i j k) ) => ((a b c) (d e f) g)
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2020-07-02T13:55:35Z phoe: tich: collecting the G at the end will be tricky
2020-07-02T13:55:52Z jackdaniel: one thing to keep in mind is that xlib has the implementation which defines CLOS classes too
2020-07-02T13:56:06Z jackdaniel: define-clx-class defines either structures or standard classes depending on a build-time flag
2020-07-02T13:56:17Z beach: Oh, I had no idea.
2020-07-02T13:56:20Z beach: Interesting.
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2020-07-02T13:56:41Z phoe: you can (loop for (x y z) on list by #'cdddr collect (list x y z))
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2020-07-02T13:56:48Z phoe: but that will return ((A B C) (D E F) (G NIL NIL))
2020-07-02T13:57:07Z phoe: so there needs to be a little bit of conditionalization to avoid these last NILs
2020-07-02T14:00:26Z tich: phoe:thank you
2020-07-02T14:01:22Z tich: phoe:so the by clause has to be a function and not an integer?
2020-07-02T14:01:42Z phoe: tich: if you are performing list iteration, it must be a list function
2020-07-02T14:01:52Z phoe: a numeric BY is there if you do numeric iteration
2020-07-02T14:02:03Z phoe: e.g. (loop for x from 0 by 5 ...)
2020-07-02T14:02:26Z _death: you can use nthcdr
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2020-07-02T14:09:00Z _death: for example https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1937#1937
2020-07-02T14:11:10Z _death: though it would be prettier to (loop ... for sublist = list then (nthcdr n sublist) ...)
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2020-07-02T14:16:28Z tich: _death:thank you for the code snippet
2020-07-02T14:19:06Z pve: Hi, are there any in-depth tutorials or other resources that cover designing an interface specifically with clos features in mind?
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2020-07-02T14:19:25Z pve: uh, module interfaces that is, not user interfaces
2020-07-02T14:19:39Z phoe: http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf
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2020-07-02T14:19:53Z phoe: plus a shameless plug: https://github.com/phoe/protest/
2020-07-02T14:20:06Z _death: the AMOP book and the CLIM spec are good examples
2020-07-02T14:21:05Z pve: ok, lots of good stuff, thanks
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2020-07-02T14:39:44Z pve: Do you guys start by carefully defining your interfaces, or do you just hack away and later flesh out the interfaces?
2020-07-02T14:39:59Z phoe: I do both at the same time
2020-07-02T14:40:19Z phoe: it's okay to have a rough sketch of the interface, but most of the time it changes anyway during the implementation
2020-07-02T14:40:31Z phoe: unless you already have an interface that you build against, at which point the question is moot
2020-07-02T14:40:35Z pve: sure
2020-07-02T14:41:47Z beach: Also, I often find myself wanting a completely new version of some library I wrote in the past.  And then I have a much better idea of the protocol I want to implement.
2020-07-02T14:41:55Z beach: But yeah, the first time around, it is incremental.
2020-07-02T14:42:06Z pve: ok, makes sense
2020-07-02T14:42:35Z beach: pve: Feel free to expose your ideas for protocols here.
2020-07-02T14:43:42Z pve: beach: thanks, will do.. don't really have anything concrete at this point though
2020-07-02T14:43:45Z beach: pve: As _death pointed out, the CLIM specification is an excellent example of how to design protocols.
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2020-07-02T14:44:22Z beach: pve: I understand.  But I assume you are working with some project in mind?
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2020-07-02T14:45:44Z pve: I'm working on my toy language, and while the compiler works (from the language to CL, right now), the internals are kind of hacky and probably wrong from a textbook perspective
2020-07-02T14:46:03Z beach: I see.
2020-07-02T14:46:30Z pve: I'd like to clean it up, but need to get a better idea of how I could go about it
2020-07-02T14:47:17Z beach: This is probably way too complex, but perhaps you want to have a quick glance at what we do in Cleavir.  We read CSTs using Eclector, then translate them to ASTs, then to HIR.
2020-07-02T14:47:44Z pve: and I feel better-defined interfaces would be a good start
2020-07-02T14:47:55Z pve: hmm can't hurt to have a look
2020-07-02T14:48:09Z beach: Check SICL/Code/Cleavir2/...
2020-07-02T14:48:15Z beach: There is even documentation. :)
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2020-07-02T14:52:23Z pve: right now I piggy-back on the lisp reader to get a list of tokens which are then parsed into an AST, the AST is then used to emit CL code
2020-07-02T14:52:42Z beach: OK.
2020-07-02T14:52:49Z pve: I wanted to be able to mix CL with my language and that felt like the easiest way to get started
2020-07-02T14:53:17Z beach: I vividly recommend you use Eclector if you are reading something that looks a bit like Lisp.
2020-07-02T14:53:25Z beach: It is highly configurable.
2020-07-02T14:53:59Z pve: I've been eying it from a distance
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2020-07-02T14:54:21Z pve: waiting to make the leap
2020-07-02T14:54:39Z beach: Eclector also comes with great documentation.
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2020-07-02T14:55:01Z pve: it looks like lisp in the sense that almost everything is a lisp form, besides that, it looks like smalltalk
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2020-07-02T14:55:51Z beach: So, Eclector will let you intercept things like symbol creation, so that you don't need to have the right packages already defined in your Common Lisp system.
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2020-07-02T14:56:23Z pve: not sure if "form" is the right term, I mean symbols, numbers, strings etc just as they are written in lisp
2020-07-02T14:56:37Z beach: I see.
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2020-07-02T14:57:50Z pve: I will definitely see if I could make use of Eclector
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2020-07-02T14:59:31Z beach: In fact, it is high time we stamp out implementation-specific readers. :)
2020-07-02T15:00:55Z beach: pve: Speaking of which, Eclector is another excellent example of how to design CLOS protocols.
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2020-07-02T15:01:59Z pve: ok, that's good to know
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2020-07-02T15:04:15Z splittist: I should look again, but what led me not to use Eclector in a particular case was the vast array of (quite illuminating, but not so helpful for that case) errors that could be signalled.
2020-07-02T15:04:46Z splittist: Of course, at the time I hadn't read the book on CL's condition system...
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2020-07-02T15:14:15Z pve: currently I'm only at about 5k lines of CL and maybe another 5k of the new language, so things are still quite manageable, but it would be good to get a little discipline into it sooner rather than later
2020-07-02T15:14:15Z pve: I imagine it will only become harder
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2020-07-02T17:13:30Z rumbler31_: this probably belongs on #ccl but I'm trying to use ccl to parse command line arguments.  Seems like when I dump from an image I've already dumped, the command line arguments globals are blank, or at least, frozen as of whenever the first image was made
2020-07-02T17:17:48Z sjl: rumbler31_: possibly relevant https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/177
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2020-07-02T17:19:46Z rumbler31_: not quite the same, in my case, unprocessed command line arguments variable is blank, but the full list is available
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2020-07-02T17:33:49Z Kabriel_: Is there a reason that sb-posix:chdir and uiop:chdir do not modify *default-pathname-defaults*?
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2020-07-02T17:45:47Z _death: why would they? there is no expectation that *d-p-d* and posix working directory be kept in sync..
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2020-07-02T17:50:14Z papachan: how i can rewrite this using composing ? http://sprunge.us/qDTt9z
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2020-07-02T18:18:05Z Kabriel_: I assume that uiop:chdir is built on top of implementation specific methods like sb-posix:chdir.
2020-07-02T18:19:13Z Kabriel_: It seems odd to me that uiop:run-program uses the "directory" that uiop:chdir modifies too, but methods like load or (truename #P"./") use *d-p-d*.
2020-07-02T18:19:51Z Kabriel_: I would expect these to be linked, or at least an easy way to link them such that when you "changed" directories, it would be consistent in both cases.
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2020-07-03T03:15:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-07-03T04:03:07Z KaiLikesLinux: Morning, beach
2020-07-03T04:03:07Z minion: KaiLikesLinux, memo from phoe: like that, for instance
2020-07-03T04:03:46Z KaiLikesLinux: minion memo phoe what?
2020-07-03T04:04:43Z KaiLikesLinux: minion: memo for phoe: Like what???
2020-07-03T04:04:43Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell phoe when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-07-03T04:23:39Z beach: KaiLikesLinux: phoe was just teaching you how to make minion give you a memo.  You can look at the channel logs if you like.
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2020-07-03T04:30:49Z KaiLikesLinux: beach: Ironic, as I figured it out without that xd
2020-07-03T04:31:26Z beach: Oh well.
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2020-07-03T06:38:36Z phoe: oh well
2020-07-03T06:38:37Z minion: phoe, memo from KaiLikesLinux: Like what???
2020-07-03T06:38:42Z phoe: that's good, I suppose!
2020-07-03T06:38:52Z beach: Hey phoe.
2020-07-03T06:39:57Z phoe: hey hi
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2020-07-03T08:02:56Z pve: Morning, in the SICL repository, is the "Cleavir2" directory a rewrite of "Cleavir"? So the "Cleavir" dir can be more or less ignored?
2020-07-03T08:05:31Z KaiLikesLinux: mornin
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2020-07-03T08:13:38Z beach: pve: Let's hope so.  Let me explain a bit...
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2020-07-03T08:14:17Z beach: Clasp needed a better compiler, so drmeister wanted to use Cleavir for that, but Cleavir wasn't really ready at the time.  Still isn't quite ready.
2020-07-03T08:15:01Z beach: So for SICL, I needed to be able to modify Cleavir to adapt it to what SICL needs, and to correct some mistakes I made in Cleavir (v1).
2020-07-03T08:15:12Z beach: But I couldn't really do that without breaking Clasp.
2020-07-03T08:15:23Z beach: So I made Cleavir version 2.
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2020-07-03T08:15:42Z pve: ok, thanks, I understand now
2020-07-03T08:15:56Z beach: But now, Clasp needs better performance, so Bike and karlosz are working on Cleavir 1 to incorporate some optimizations that are not yet in Cleavir 2.
2020-07-03T08:16:17Z pve: just looking at the AST for now
2020-07-03T08:16:27Z beach: I don't want them yet in Cleavir 2 because I want to debug as little code as possible while I am working on SICL bootstrapping.
2020-07-03T08:16:41Z beach: Cleavir2 is probably better for you then.
2020-07-03T08:17:29Z pve: ok, great!
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2020-07-03T08:45:31Z pve: beach: (silly question) when you want to transform your AST into the next representation, do you walk the tree using the "children" function, or by directly recursing down each node's reader functions?
2020-07-03T08:45:44Z pve: or is "children" used only for visualization etc
2020-07-03T08:46:20Z pve: I ask because I don't have a children function, and now I'm wondering if I'm doing something the hard way
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2020-07-03T08:47:46Z beach: Usually, the transformation uses the specific accessors.
2020-07-03T08:47:58Z pve: alright
2020-07-03T08:48:05Z beach: CHILDREN is for when you don't really care what the AST is doing.
2020-07-03T08:48:12Z beach: Visualization is one such situation, yes.
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2020-07-03T10:54:58Z jmercouris: I'm trying to do the following: http://dpaste.com/00C4P0G
2020-07-03T10:55:05Z jmercouris: the linke that doesn't work is:           do (setf index (term-count sentence word)))
2020-07-03T10:55:15Z jmercouris: is the only way to set the value of an array with the index?
2020-07-03T10:55:42Z jmercouris: I guess arrays are arrays regardless of the language huh :-D
2020-07-03T10:57:16Z jackdaniel: "index" is not a pointer to the array cell
2020-07-03T10:57:20Z mfiano: index is a variable binding of the value. It is not a place to be set in this context
2020-07-03T10:57:36Z jmercouris: that's too bad, I assume it just grabs the value
2020-07-03T10:57:37Z jmercouris: OK
2020-07-03T10:57:42Z jackdaniel: even original locatives as defined on symbolics lisp machines didn't work with arrays that way
2020-07-03T10:58:00Z jmercouris: so I'll have to use AREF then, correct?
2020-07-03T10:58:09Z beach: jmercouris: Places are not first-class objects in Common Lisp.
2020-07-03T10:58:09Z jmercouris: and I'll have to have another clause to keep a track of the index
2020-07-03T10:58:14Z jackdaniel: you may do (make-array (length-dictionary) :initial-contents dictionary)
2020-07-03T10:58:29Z jackdaniel: s/length-dictionary/length dictionary/
2020-07-03T10:58:58Z jackdaniel: or, if you need to call a function, you may call map-into
2020-07-03T10:59:11Z jmercouris: I thought about that
2020-07-03T10:59:17Z jmercouris: I was just thinking about map, but I prefer loop
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2020-07-03T10:59:24Z jmercouris: at least in this case
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2020-07-03T11:00:05Z jackdaniel: then use aref (or svref, or row-major-aref)
2020-07-03T11:00:51Z jmercouris: yeah, I've replaced it with: do (setf (aref vector-form index) (term-count sentence word)))
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2020-07-03T11:01:08Z jmercouris: and then added the clause for index from 0 to (length vector-form)
2020-07-03T11:02:03Z mfiano: That's not correct
2020-07-03T11:02:18Z jmercouris: how come?
2020-07-03T11:02:19Z mfiano: Use "for index below (length vector form)"
2020-07-03T11:02:22Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/30MTJAW
2020-07-03T11:02:41Z jmercouris: what is "below"?
2020-07-03T11:02:54Z jackdaniel: http://l1sp.org/search?q=below
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2020-07-03T11:03:29Z jmercouris: hm, i think it is correct
2020-07-03T11:03:32Z jmercouris: because I am using length
2020-07-03T11:04:04Z mfiano: (loop :for i :to (length (vector 1 2 3)) :collect i) ; =>  (0 1 2 3)
2020-07-03T11:04:07Z mfiano: (loop :for i :below (length (vector 1 2 3)) :collect i) ;=> (0 1 2)
2020-07-03T11:04:52Z jackdaniel: (aref #(1 2 3) 3) ; => 4
2020-07-03T11:05:01Z jmercouris: ah, I see
2020-07-03T11:05:12Z jmercouris: off by 1 joy
2020-07-03T11:05:19Z jackdaniel: (on VICL,  that is "value inferring common lisp")
2020-07-03T11:05:42Z ebrasca: jmercouris: ":to n" is equal to ":below (1- n)"
2020-07-03T11:05:58Z jackdaniel: hm, better would be (aref #(0 1 2) 3) ;4 :)
2020-07-03T11:06:14Z ebrasca: sory ":to (1- n)" is equal to ":below n"
2020-07-03T11:06:27Z jmercouris: 1
2020-07-03T11:06:46Z mfiano: and "from 0" is implied in this context, un-needed if you want to condense it a bit
2020-07-03T11:07:23Z jmercouris: final clause form:           for index from 0 upto (length vector-form)
2020-07-03T11:07:30Z jmercouris: I'll leave the "from 0" for explicitness sake
2020-07-03T11:07:52Z jackdaniel: I don't know where did you take this final clause form
2020-07-03T11:08:04Z jackdaniel: where you explicitly repeat your error from before :)
2020-07-03T11:08:14Z jmercouris: I use upto, it says it is analogous to below
2020-07-03T11:08:20Z mfiano: analogous
2020-07-03T11:08:33Z jmercouris: son of a
2020-07-03T11:08:46Z jmercouris: yes
2020-07-03T11:09:41Z ebrasca: jmercouris: I see you are having fun!
2020-07-03T11:10:59Z jmercouris: lol, good times today indeed
2020-07-03T11:11:28Z jmercouris: I'm doing some eigenvector centrality calculations, and so I decided to use arrays instead of lists for performance
2020-07-03T11:11:30Z jmercouris: my first time using arrays in lisp
2020-07-03T11:11:56Z jackdaniel: (and loop maybe?)
2020-07-03T11:12:41Z jmercouris: no
2020-07-03T11:12:54Z jackdaniel: n.b you may create an anaphoric macro
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2020-07-03T11:13:12Z jackdaniel: s/anaphoric/symbol/, which captures the loop iterating variable
2020-07-03T11:13:28Z jackdaniel: then (setf index foo) will expand to (setf (aref foobar index) foo)
2020-07-03T11:13:42Z ebrasca: jmercouris: Try this (loop :for item-n :across (vector 0 1 2 3 4) :do (print item-n))
2020-07-03T11:14:09Z jackdaniel: (symbol-macrolet ((index `(aref array i))) (loop for i below (length vector) do (setf index (bla))))
2020-07-03T11:16:10Z jmercouris: hm, an interesting idea
2020-07-03T11:16:13Z jackdaniel: that way you have a third-class place
2020-07-03T11:16:16Z mfiano: Well you don't want the quote there but yeah
2020-07-03T11:17:08Z jackdaniel: right, thanks for the correction mfiano
2020-07-03T11:17:37Z jackdaniel: that said it is only a fun way to play with things, don't do that
2020-07-03T11:17:58Z phoe: jackdaniel: I was about to mention that your irony levels are high today
2020-07-03T11:18:05Z jackdaniel: code will be harder to read and benefits are literally 0 from using that
2020-07-03T11:18:23Z jmercouris: yeah, I didn't say I would do it
2020-07-03T11:18:30Z jmercouris: I just said it was an interesting idea
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2020-07-03T11:19:03Z jmercouris: I could also embed an emulator within an flet and make it perform the operations :-D
2020-07-03T11:19:03Z jmercouris: an interesting idea, but I don't think I'm going to do it
2020-07-03T11:19:04Z jackdaniel: phoe: I like to think about myself as a person who is not ironic at all
2020-07-03T11:19:06Z phoe: I'd go (loop for word in dictionary for i from 0 do (setf (aref vector-form i) ...))
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2020-07-03T11:19:58Z phoe: or just (coerce 'dictionary 'vector) since it seems equivalent?
2020-07-03T11:20:27Z phoe: this code seems to turn (foo bar baz) info #(foo bar baz) and COERCE is good for that
2020-07-03T11:22:51Z mfiano: That would be good too, but I suspect he will be refactoring later to a specialized array since he is after performance
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2020-07-03T11:23:14Z phoe: uh I mean (coerce dictionary 'vector)
2020-07-03T11:23:43Z phoe: or (coerce dictionary '(vector element-type)) for specialization
2020-07-03T11:24:01Z phoe: where ELEMENT-TYPE is your element type
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2020-07-03T11:25:36Z phoe: still, even a simple array will give a speed boost when compared to long lists
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2020-07-03T11:29:28Z jackdaniel: that depends on how you access them
2020-07-03T11:29:55Z jackdaniel: if you butcher arrays to append them and access them only sequentially, then array won't buy you a dim
2020-07-03T11:30:02Z phoe: yes, linear scanning over lists is going to be fast
2020-07-03T11:30:13Z phoe: but random access will be cheaper for arrays
2020-07-03T11:30:34Z jackdaniel: there are other things to consider, that's why I say that it all depends
2020-07-03T11:30:52Z jackdaniel: i.e list may hold any type of elements, while with specialized arrays you may inline some operations
2020-07-03T11:31:01Z jackdaniel: (that is, compiler may)
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2020-07-03T11:31:32Z jackdaniel: also it is not given that sequential access to a list will be faster
2020-07-03T11:31:56Z jackdaniel: i.e for array you know its length, so you don't have to check whether the cdr is nil
2020-07-03T11:32:22Z ebrasca: Are there alternatives to multiple-value-bind ?
2020-07-03T11:32:23Z jackdaniel dives back to presentation type predicates in CLIM
2020-07-03T11:32:41Z jackdaniel: s/to/in/
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2020-07-03T11:33:35Z phoe: ebrasca: why do you ask?
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2020-07-03T11:34:25Z White_Flame: ebrasca: there's multiple-value-list, to grab them all into 1 vallue
2020-07-03T11:34:29Z White_Flame: *value
2020-07-03T11:35:48Z ebrasca: I have someting like this http://ix.io/2qLI , I don't like nesting multiple-value-binds .
2020-07-03T11:35:53Z White_Flame: jackdaniel: arrays need to do a check against the length every iteration, though.  likely the same cost
2020-07-03T11:36:08Z White_Flame: plus an additional variable compared to the list
2020-07-03T11:36:09Z mfiano: There are times when linearly accessing an array can be faster than the same size list
2020-07-03T11:36:13Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: my point is that there are not guarantees what is faster
2020-07-03T11:36:18Z phoe: ebrasca: there's no standard way around that.
2020-07-03T11:36:47Z phoe: there are utilities like bind-star that offer different syntax for that, but they aren't standard
2020-07-03T11:36:51Z White_Flame: ebrasca: write your own multiple-multiple-value-bind ;)
2020-07-03T11:37:33Z ebrasca: White_Flame: What if I end neding multiple-multiple-multiple-value-bind ?
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2020-07-03T11:38:01Z jackdaniel: I don't recommend it, but you may use uiop's nest, you won't reduce number of forms but you will reduce nesting
2020-07-03T11:39:31Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: Ok, I just focus making read-byte/sequence , write-byte/sequence for block based FSs.
2020-07-03T11:39:46Z mfiano: golden-utils and serapeum have MVLET and MVLET* for that, which allows you to use m-v-b with a LET-like syntax, which means it can be used to intersperse normal LET bindings in the mix
2020-07-03T11:40:57Z phoe: ebrasca: a hack is to do something like (destructuring-bind (a b c d e f) (multiple-value-call #'list (floor 1 2) (floor 3 4) (floor 5 6)) ...)
2020-07-03T11:41:00Z phoe: but that is a hack
2020-07-03T11:41:34Z ebrasca: This is my monster http://ix.io/2qLP
2020-07-03T11:41:55Z phoe: there's just two nested m-v-b there
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2020-07-03T11:42:20Z phoe: I was expecting 4+ if you say it's a monster
2020-07-03T11:42:44Z mfiano: (mvlet ((one two (values 1 2)) (three four (values 3 4)) (five 5)) (list one two three four five)) ; => (1 2 3 4 5)
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2020-07-03T11:44:23Z jackdaniel: that was a monster: https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/blob/master/Core/clim-core/presentations/translators.lisp#L373 :)
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2020-07-03T11:44:50Z jackdaniel: well, only 5-level nest, but still it looked ugly
2020-07-03T11:45:33Z phoe: hah
2020-07-03T11:46:03Z mfiano: I should've probably done something similar here :) https://github.com/mfiano/algae/blob/master/src/noise/perlin-improved-4d.lisp#L48-L87
2020-07-03T11:46:21Z phoe: haha
2020-07-03T11:46:24Z jackdaniel: all I understand is "u lerp fs"
2020-07-03T11:46:39Z jackdaniel: and it is probably some kind of insult
2020-07-03T11:46:51Z mfiano: :)
2020-07-03T11:48:53Z mfiano: 27-30 is an example of MVLET saving 4 levels of nesting btw
2020-07-03T11:49:21Z mfiano: The rest are just normal let bindings shoved into that, because 1 return value is no different :)
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2020-07-03T12:00:32Z ebrasca: mfiano: I can't find documentation for golden-utils.
2020-07-03T12:02:08Z mfiano: Most functions have docstrings
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2020-07-03T12:02:17Z ebrasca: maybe better name is multiple-value-let
2020-07-03T12:02:35Z phoe: that's what mvlet stands for
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2020-07-03T12:02:40Z mfiano: A few libraries use mvlet for concision, and so does golden-utils
2020-07-03T12:02:49Z phoe: except that I guess mfiano found the "multiple-value-" prefix too long
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2020-07-03T12:03:59Z mfiano: Not really. I prefer descriptive names when appropriate. This was more about convention, though I do use that a fair bit so concision helps.
2020-07-03T12:04:54Z ebrasca: Wha I don't like about lisp is its lack of consistency.
2020-07-03T12:05:09Z ebrasca: What I don't like about lisp is its lack of consistency.
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2020-07-03T12:05:47Z shka_: yeah
2020-07-03T12:05:54Z phoe: that's the price we pay for having arbitrary syntax
2020-07-03T12:06:24Z mfiano: Well it is a language designed to bring multiple Lisps together, but fortunately, they gave us macros so it's a non-issue.
2020-07-03T12:06:25Z ebrasca: whey sometimes it is "place item" and others "item place"
2020-07-03T12:06:39Z phoe: this one is also a terrible thing
2020-07-03T12:06:54Z phoe: and I hope the Hypothetical Future Revision fixes it up in some way
2020-07-03T12:07:45Z shka_: HOPE
2020-07-03T12:07:46Z phoe: (hopefully via (place item) to make these consistent with their -F versions)
2020-07-03T12:07:48Z shka_: what a funny idea :D
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2020-07-03T12:08:03Z phoe: shka_: okay, I'm going to write that revision myself and gain a whole of three users
2020-07-03T12:08:04Z ebrasca: I like "place item" like defvar .
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2020-07-03T12:08:12Z phoe: one of which is my CI environment
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2020-07-03T12:08:31Z ebrasca: of like (setf place item)
2020-07-03T12:08:32Z phoe: and the others are me and some random Internet person
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2020-07-03T12:10:31Z mfiano: Well Lisp is flexible. There will always be inconsistencies in the library space.
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2020-07-03T12:11:20Z mfiano: I wouldn't consider that a bad thing. After all, code is a projection of ones' own thought processes. It doesn't make sense that a language that provides the power that Lisp does produce code that will be molded for everyone.
2020-07-03T12:11:29Z ebrasca: How hard can it be to make cl consistent?
2020-07-03T12:12:17Z jackdaniel: we should teach minion a catchphrase spoken when someone talks about reforming the common lisp standard :)
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2020-07-03T12:13:09Z shka_: well, beach has this well specified common lisp project going on
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2020-07-03T12:13:18Z jackdaniel: like: "it is easy, just take pen and sketch corrections"
2020-07-03T12:13:39Z ebrasca: I am going to talk about reforming cl againg.
2020-07-03T12:13:49Z phoe: ebrasca: it's easy
2020-07-03T12:13:52Z shka_: anything that goes further then this is just a pipe dream
2020-07-03T12:13:56Z phoe: the hard thing is to get everyone to use it
2020-07-03T12:14:03Z mfiano: I would rather have more choices for conforming implementations than to split the community even more.
2020-07-03T12:14:11Z phoe: and by "hard" I mean what shka_ and mfiano said
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2020-07-03T12:14:25Z jackdaniel: phoe: you've ruined it. you should have make the second sentence: "just take the pen and sketch corrections" ;)
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2020-07-03T12:16:29Z ebrasca is thinking about word conquest and forcing his cl vision on all other persons.
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2020-07-03T12:16:46Z shka_: ONE VISION, ONE STANDARD
2020-07-03T12:17:14Z shka_: no, sorry guys, i just can't take this seriously ;-)
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2020-07-03T12:29:15Z beach: *sigh*
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2020-07-03T12:34:14Z phoe: ebrasca: or else what
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2020-07-03T12:41:28Z ebrasca: phoe: No more food for you.
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2020-07-03T12:45:42Z ebrasca: phoe: Hoe are you going?
2020-07-03T12:46:02Z ebrasca can't write correctly today...
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2020-07-03T12:48:22Z phoe: I am okay, doing dayjob things
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2020-07-03T12:50:53Z pve: ebrasca: don't know if it was mentioned, but could you do something like this?
2020-07-03T12:50:54Z pve: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1938
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2020-07-03T12:57:13Z ebrasca: pve: I think mvlet is nise but using some lybrary like golden-utils in Mezzano...
2020-07-03T12:59:24Z jmercouris: how to document a defclass form?
2020-07-03T12:59:45Z jmercouris: use :documentation at tail of form??
2020-07-03T13:01:28Z phoe: jmercouris: yes
2020-07-03T13:01:30Z mfiano: That's one way
2020-07-03T13:01:46Z phoe: setf documentation too
2020-07-03T13:01:50Z phoe: documentation-utils too
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2020-07-03T13:11:00Z jmercouris: how does time know how many processor cycles were required?
2020-07-03T13:11:26Z jmercouris: how could any process possibly know that?
2020-07-03T13:12:14Z jmercouris: I thought that the binary was just a contract, how the underlying operations are performed, and the amount of cycles is not dependent
2020-07-03T13:12:33Z jmercouris: eg mv could take 1 or 1 million cycles, up to the discretion of the CPU
2020-07-03T13:12:36Z mfiano: They are estimated, depending on the interfaces the OS provides.
2020-07-03T13:13:25Z jmercouris: I see
2020-07-03T13:13:45Z mfiano: TIME doesn't require producing that information, though.
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2020-07-03T13:51:32Z Bike: jmercouris: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Stamp_Counter
2020-07-03T13:52:04Z jmercouris: ah, i did not know about that
2020-07-03T13:52:07Z jmercouris: very cool Bike
2020-07-03T13:52:11Z jmercouris: in any case, first sentence "The Time Stamp Counter was once an excellent high-resolution, low-overhead way for a program to get CPU timing information. With the advent of multi-core/hyper-threaded CPUs, systems with multiple CPUs, and hibernating operating systems, the TSC cannot be relied upon to provide accurate results"
2020-07-03T13:52:32Z Bike: sbcl does use it though, i think
2020-07-03T13:53:05Z Bike: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/0fcebff494f89fe5fa0e5855fb36ed5d913783b7/src/compiler/x86-64/system.lisp#L351-L378 yeah. some deets
2020-07-03T13:53:10Z phoe: TIME is single-threaded single-CPU'd though
2020-07-03T13:53:31Z phoe: and I guess you cannot expect good results in case of hibernation anyway
2020-07-03T13:53:43Z Bike: sbcl also empties the instruction pipeline first to deal with out of order ness
2020-07-03T13:53:50Z jmercouris: very clever
2020-07-03T13:54:08Z Bike: and "the results are per-processor and not per-process, so are unreliable on multiprocessor machines where processes can migrate between processors."
2020-07-03T13:57:07Z Bike: also re "mv could take 1 or 1 million cycles", these things tend to be pretty well documented in architecture manuals or by agner fog
2020-07-03T13:57:22Z Bike: but, indeed, trying to estimate how many cycles a given stretch of instructions would take to execute wouldn't work very well
2020-07-03T13:58:10Z Bike: plus on a more basic level you'd have to know how many times a loop is going to execute and etc, which makes it outright impossible
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2020-07-03T14:01:07Z phoe: you'd need to have a cycle-perfect CPU emulator
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2020-07-03T14:01:18Z phoe: and that requires emulating caches and memory as well
2020-07-03T14:01:37Z phoe: and having it map 1-to-1 to the particular CPU model
2020-07-03T14:01:40Z mfiano: A cycle-perfect emulator of anything is not possible
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2020-07-03T14:02:29Z phoe: I mean, not mapping 1-to-1 to machine cycles, but being able to count instruction cycles by either literally executing that code or doing some sort of examination on it
2020-07-03T14:02:38Z phoe: ugly stuff
2020-07-03T14:02:47Z mfiano: Take the case of DICE, the digital integrated circuit emulator. Here is an emulator that works at the transistor level for absolutely perfect recreation of the very first video games ever created. To run Pong at about 5-10fps, DICE requires a 3GHz processor, which wasn't a thing until relatively very recently ago.
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2020-07-03T14:11:35Z lonjil: anyone here happen to have a pdf of Baker's paper Lively Linear Lisp? His website seems to be down.
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2020-07-03T14:19:14Z jmercouris: anyone know of a implementation of pagerank within CL?
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2020-07-03T14:22:01Z jmercouris: well, it seems allegro graph has this...
2020-07-03T14:23:01Z jmercouris: cl graph does not seem to have this
2020-07-03T14:24:35Z jmercouris: in fact grepping for "centrality" reveals no centrality measures whatsoever
2020-07-03T14:24:54Z jmercouris: Hm, I guess I am on my own
2020-07-03T14:25:53Z ebrasca: lonjil: Do you mean this http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/hunt/research/hash-cons/hash-cons-papers/BakerLinearLisp.pdf ?
2020-07-03T14:26:40Z lonjil: Yes
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2020-07-03T14:27:23Z lonjil: Thanks
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2020-07-03T14:43:09Z mfiano: http://eschulte.github.io/graph/#katz-centrality
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2020-07-03T18:01:35Z pve: Can anyone recommend a tool for printing CL code, like on paper? So something to convert the source files into .ps or .pdf..
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2020-07-03T18:02:02Z pve: I know emacs has some printing stuff, but I've never used it, so I don't know how viable it is
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2020-07-03T18:06:44Z _death: I remember lukego had a blog post about it ( https://lukego.github.io/blog/2012/10/24/readable-programs/ ) but I don't print stuff
2020-07-03T18:08:00Z pve: aha, thanks!
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2020-07-03T18:22:14Z aeth: heh, I was about to say, "That was 2012, but in 2020, we'd probably just use Markdown"... but the blog's already talking about Markdown. I guess everyone cool was already talking about Markdown even by 2010.
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2020-07-03T18:26:37Z _death: recently I reverted (for no good reason) to the intricate comment convention style mentioned in the clhs.. for some years I only used ;;;; and ;; and stopped inserting Page characters .. still don't know if it's worth it
2020-07-03T18:26:51Z aeth: pve: You can just add "### filename.lisp~%```common-lisp~%" to the top of a file and "```~%~%" to the bottom and concatenate the files together and use an existing Markdown processor, assuming the comments and docstrings don't need to be handled in a fancy way.
2020-07-03T18:27:21Z aeth: (Even a shell script could do this, with \n as the newline marker.)
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2020-07-03T18:35:31Z ebrasca: Why?
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2020-07-03T18:56:56Z Guest9274: o/ How can I declare function's output value as a composite type? I want to say that a function returns `(or null string)`. I see it's possible to do so for variables, but was wondering if it's possible for function parameters.
2020-07-03T18:59:21Z phoe: Guest9274: (declare (ftype (function () (or null string) ...))
2020-07-03T18:59:27Z phoe: s/declare/declaim/
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2020-07-03T19:00:44Z pve: aeth: thanks, can a markdown processor give me syntax highlighting?
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2020-07-03T19:06:03Z Guest9274: phoe: thanks!
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2020-07-03T19:10:52Z aeth: pve: if it recognizes the language name in the code block section
2020-07-03T19:11:07Z aeth: probably "common-lisp", but possibly just "lisp"
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2020-07-03T19:18:48Z pve: all right
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2020-07-03T19:27:09Z phoe: What's the simplest way to get a inheritance graph drawn for me? Something McCLIMish?
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2020-07-03T19:35:26Z _death: https://gist.github.com/death/9f8cd25f4e946948a64a1f485e70f605 ?
2020-07-03T19:36:33Z phoe: oh! i meant something spatial
2020-07-03T19:36:39Z phoe: like https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/727649887549653212/728694783706529853/Zrzut_ekranu_z_2020-07-03_21-32-49.png that I did real quick in draw.io
2020-07-03T19:38:22Z _death: not sure what "spatial" means?
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2020-07-03T19:46:52Z phoe: 2D
2020-07-03T19:47:06Z phoe: write-digraph produces a list of arrows
2020-07-03T19:47:13Z _death: dot -Tpng foo.dot > foo.png
2020-07-03T19:47:14Z phoe: ...if I understand your code correctly that is
2020-07-03T19:47:18Z phoe: oh!
2020-07-03T19:47:25Z phoe: thanks ;D
2020-07-03T19:48:02Z _death: that snippet's from 2008 though :)
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2020-07-03T19:48:44Z _death: for more recent dot stuff I use cl-dot
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2020-07-03T19:59:04Z _death: for example https://i.imgur.com/piCKqJd.png from some months ago
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2020-07-04T02:07:09Z gjulio: hey i'm new to the channel and new-ish to lisp. i'm getting stuck with the syntax on using remove with reduce. if i have a blacklist ofsymbols '(a b c) and a list '(a b a c a b b a). I want to use reduce to obtain '(a a b b a).
2020-07-04T02:07:16Z gjulio: i'm trying this
2020-07-04T02:07:29Z gjulio: (reduce (lambda (x y) (remove x y :count 1))
2020-07-04T02:07:29Z gjulio: 	  '(a b c)
2020-07-04T02:07:30Z gjulio: 	  :initial-value '(a b a c a b b a))
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2020-07-04T02:09:12Z gjulio: ah sheeit, i should just sway x and y in my remove call...
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2020-07-04T03:34:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-07-04T03:34:49Z beach: gjulio: Did you solve your problem?
2020-07-04T03:35:10Z gjulio: yeah, beach it all worked out. thanks
2020-07-04T03:35:17Z beach: Great!
2020-07-04T03:35:28Z beach: And welcome to #lisp.
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2020-07-04T03:58:26Z shukryzablah: is it possible to make + add two vectors element-wise? (+ (vector 1 2) (vector 3 4)) -> #(4 6) . How can I do this?
2020-07-04T04:00:22Z White_Flame: (map 'vector #'+ #(1 2) #(3 4))
2020-07-04T04:00:49Z White_Flame: of course, that's not making + do anything new, but using + element-wise across two vectors
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2020-07-04T04:05:01Z beach: shukryzablah: No, you can't alter the behavior of +, nor of many other basic Common Lisp functions.  But you can create your own package and your own + function that is able to add vectors.
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2020-07-04T04:37:05Z aeth: If you want type-based generics (as opposed to class-based... normally classes are sufficient, but for numbers/arrays they often aren't), one library to do this is https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/
2020-07-04T04:37:15Z aeth: It's a slower generic dispatch unless it can be inlined.
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2020-07-04T05:32:37Z fbmnds: Hi, maybe first some context: I intend to use the Qt5 bindings for ECL (EQL5 https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5) for my own project. EQL5 comes with a nice collection of examples which most of them I got running on my ARM64 developer platform. I expect to figure out how to use EQL5 for my project on my own.
2020-07-04T05:32:46Z fbmnds: I'd like to know whether there is interest in this community to dig into EQL5 in essence to be able to further maintain this project. From what I understood going through the code base, EQL5 is based on witty design ideas and allows for cross platform GUI development (the examples apps work nice on my Android mobile, too - iOS is also supported).
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2020-07-04T05:41:45Z beach: fbmnds: Hello.  You may have better luck some other time.  This is early Saturday morning in Europe, and late Friday evening in north America.
2020-07-04T05:42:35Z beach: And many participants have families, so weekends are kind of slow here.
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2020-07-04T06:00:59Z fbmnds: @beach ok - I'll post again on Monday morning :-)
2020-07-04T06:03:40Z beach: Good plan.  Oh, and this is IRC, and the @ convention is not used.  Just type the nickname followed by a `:'.  Your IRC client should complete for you.
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2020-07-04T06:06:58Z beach: fbmnds: And, the channel is logged, so you might get some feedback over the weekend.
2020-07-04T06:10:05Z adlai occasionally sees a comma instead of colon, this seems like a less formal convention... most IRC clients will highlight the message in either case
2020-07-04T06:11:43Z adlai: fbmnds: there is also an #ecl channel that might be useful since you are asking about an ECL-specific project
2020-07-04T06:11:54Z fbmnds: beach: I alienate quite a bit with chat platforms in general
2020-07-04T06:12:26Z fbmnds: adlai: no traffic there in at least the last couple of days
2020-07-04T06:13:26Z adlai mumbles something about how maybe they'd get more excitement about ECL if it implemented the complete ANSI specification
2020-07-04T06:13:47Z beach: fbmnds: jackdaniel is the current maintainer of ECL, and he fulfills all the criteria.  He has a family (new baby too), and he is very busy.  But he is often around.
2020-07-04T06:14:24Z beach: adlai: Is ECL lacking a lot in this respect?
2020-07-04T06:14:26Z fbmnds: beach: thank you, I know
2020-07-04T06:14:32Z beach: Ah, OK.
2020-07-04T06:14:52Z adlai: beach: no, I am only aware of one painful incompliance - the lack of :arguments in the long form of define-method-combination
2020-07-04T06:15:01Z fbmnds: beach: I browsed the logs already when I was searching for another topic
2020-07-04T06:15:15Z beach: adlai: I see.
2020-07-04T06:15:26Z beach: fbmnds: OK.
2020-07-04T06:16:13Z adlai: I've considered taking this on as a project, since at least one other implementation (Clasp) has inherited that problem, by reusing ECL's code
2020-07-04T06:17:18Z beach: Indeed.  And I was planning to use ECL to bootstrap SICL, so I might be interested as well.  Plus, I have this long-term plan to try to create a Cleavir-based compiler for ECL.
2020-07-04T06:18:22Z adlai: are you already using the :arguments argument in SICL?
2020-07-04T06:18:39Z beach: I don't think so.
2020-07-04T06:18:57Z beach: But I might. :)
2020-07-04T06:19:49Z adlai: it seems understandable to me that an attempt to write an efficient method dispatch system would skip that one feature, although the result is a nuisance, because it is a very useful feature
2020-07-04T06:20:28Z beach: I understand.
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2020-07-04T06:32:58Z fbmnds: phoe: ref. [2020-03-28, 13:46 <phoe> nope, it's non-portable and SBCL-only] osicat runs on ECL too (https://pastebin.com/VSQDwAKu) - just saying
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2020-07-04T07:16:36Z phoe: fbmnds: my answer was to "do other distributions have a sb-posix compatibility layer? ccl?" not to osicat itself
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2020-07-04T07:16:59Z phoe: I don't think any other implementation emulates SB-POSIX
2020-07-04T07:17:50Z phoe: ECL follows some SBCL interfaces, but the last time I checked (and I might have failed) it doesn't have a layer that follows SB-POSIX
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2020-07-04T08:39:01Z jackdaniel: ah, he's gone
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2020-07-04T08:40:46Z jackdaniel: adlai: lack of this argument is a bug, but saying that "ecl doesn't implement the complete ansi specification" based on one missing argument is quite a stretch
2020-07-04T08:40:55Z jackdaniel: please report an issue on the bugtracker
2020-07-04T08:41:32Z jackdaniel: even sbcl doesn't pass all tests from ansi-test suite (some of disrapencies were a deliberate choice at that!)
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2020-07-04T09:01:07Z fbmnds: phoe: ah ok - I came across this when I looked into osicat as a dependency of cserial-port while porting from SBCL to ECL. I had problems with getting osicat to run until I realised that it runs well if ECL is compiled as default with gcc (had previously used g++)
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2020-07-04T09:06:12Z jackdaniel: fbmnds: eql5 is actively developed and maintained by Paul Ruetz (the project author), I'm not sure what do you mean by "maintaining further" the project
2020-07-04T09:07:20Z fbmnds: btw, has anyone succeeded in building a reliable permanent connection to a microcontroller with cserial-port? I tend to believe that is practically not possible due to timing issues between send/response sequences. I am looking now to make my own FFI wrapper for a C library.
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2020-07-04T09:16:28Z fbmnds: jackdaniel: I refer to upcoming maintenace challenges in a foreseeable future, given that Paul Ruetz mentioned to me in a private email conversation that he regards EQL5 as a hobby project on which he does not want to spend too much of his private time.
2020-07-04T09:22:16Z jackdaniel: uhm, thanks for elaborating
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2020-07-04T09:30:14Z fbmnds: jackdaniel: I should add that I am also refering to the upcoming Qt6 release (https://www.qt.io/blog/2019/08/07/technical-vision-qt-6)
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2020-07-04T11:20:52Z MrtnDk[m]: In Guile scheme, which command do you recommend for reading a line of text (from a file stored on a fixed disk, for instance)?
2020-07-04T11:21:46Z MrtnDk[m]: (as opposed to common lisp, I guess). 🥴
2020-07-04T11:25:08Z MrtnDk[m]: (Sorry, I guess I posted it in the wrong Lisp. I just reread the room discription of this one).
2020-07-04T11:25:40Z rgherdt: you can ask that on #guile or #scheme. But you probably want to take a look at read-line
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2020-07-04T11:50:36Z MrtnDk[m]: <rgherdt "you can ask that on #guile or #s"> I tried readline, but it doesn't seem to work in newer guiles. (use-package (ice-9 readline)) or something.
2020-07-04T11:55:10Z rgherdt: MrtnDk[m]: don't confuse readline (GNU's tool) with scheme's read-line. The latter can be imported for instance from (scheme base) or rdelim
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2020-07-04T12:03:18Z iissaacc: yo, im working with common lisp and i have a directory of 74000 files i need to process. (directory) is running okay but I'm only getting 50 filenames, anyone know why this could be?
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2020-07-04T12:09:32Z phoe: iissaacc: how do you call #'directory?
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2020-07-04T12:10:02Z iissaacc: phoe:  (setf *fnames* (directory "/Users/isaac/Dropbox/patterns/*"))
2020-07-04T12:11:42Z phoe: iissaacc: that won't include subdirs IIRC
2020-07-04T12:11:46Z pve: iissaacc: try *.* instead
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2020-07-04T12:12:31Z _death: for subdirectories you can try */*.* or **/*.*
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2020-07-04T12:12:46Z iissaacc: aha
2020-07-04T12:13:13Z iissaacc: thanks for that my Gs got it
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2020-07-04T12:14:45Z phoe: there is also uiop:collect-sub*directories
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2020-07-04T13:08:15Z MrtnDk[m]: rgherdt: Ahh! I thought "read-line" was a typo I made, since it generated an error and isn't mentioned in the texinfo documentation of the guile reference!
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2020-07-04T13:20:01Z nabataeus: Hello :D
2020-07-04T13:20:20Z nabataeus: Has anyone here ever tried to emulate a Symbolics Lisp Machine?
2020-07-04T13:20:52Z nabataeus: I'm asking because I'm attempting to emulate one though I don't know where to look.
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2020-07-04T13:24:42Z phoe: nabataeus: there is code for running Open Genera, called VLM
2020-07-04T13:24:51Z phoe: also some for MIT CADR
2020-07-04T13:26:41Z nabataeus: phoe: Is open Genera an OSS version of the original Genera? Does it differ, or is just relicensed.
2020-07-04T13:27:43Z phoe: it isn't OSS
2020-07-04T13:28:16Z nabataeus: Oh alright
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2020-07-04T13:28:24Z p_l: nabataeus: OpenGenera was "Open" in the sense of not requiring custom CPU platform
2020-07-04T13:28:50Z nabataeus: And what does that mean?
2020-07-04T13:29:20Z p_l: nabataeus: it's an unfinished (but usable in production) system that runs Genera 8.5 on top of Alpha CPU running Digital Unix (POSIX = "Open Systems" at the time)
2020-07-04T13:30:25Z nabataeus: That's neat.
2020-07-04T13:30:41Z nabataeus: p_l: Have you gotten any luck trying to run one?
2020-07-04T13:34:42Z p_l: nabataeus: yes, it's been pretty popular for a time to use hacked-up versions that run on amd64, the range of bugs can be subtle though
2020-07-04T13:35:34Z p_l: and not all software will work, as OpenGenera never actually hit planned 1.0, despite 1.0 and 2.0 being sold, and some software expects presence of old console interface (whereas OpenGenera only exposes a newer API that not all applications migrated to)
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2020-07-04T13:37:54Z nabataeus: Hm
2020-07-04T13:38:04Z bitmapper: also a bit buggy
2020-07-04T13:38:14Z bitmapper: i hit a microcode error while writing tetris
2020-07-04T13:40:37Z nabataeus: How is the machine emulated?
2020-07-04T13:41:50Z bitmapper: on alpha or on x86_64?
2020-07-04T13:42:27Z nabataeus: On x86_64
2020-07-04T13:45:36Z bitmapper: the x86_64 emulator was made by writing a program that translates alpha pseudo-assembly into C, and then just translating the alpha emulator
2020-07-04T13:49:53Z nabataeus: Never heard of pseudo-assembly.
2020-07-04T13:51:00Z nabataeus: But I think their 'Genera Concepts' guide would better explain this. Either ways thanks for your time o/
2020-07-04T13:51:06Z bitmapper: well, it's not a specific thing
2020-07-04T13:51:13Z bitmapper: nabataeus: nah it won't
2020-07-04T13:51:26Z bitmapper: i say pseudo-assembly because it's an encoding of assembly in lisp
2020-07-04T13:51:38Z p_l: nabataeus: VLM (Virtual Lisp Machine) essentially treated Alpha CPU as microcode engine
2020-07-04T13:52:19Z p_l: nabataeus: and using fine-tuned assembly implemented microcode engine for modified version of Ivory CPU (binaries between Ivory revs 0-4 and rev5 aka VLM are incompatible)
2020-07-04T13:53:02Z p_l: there's some C code which was taken from MacIvory/UX series code, except instead of talking to expansion board with real Ivory CPU it talks to the microcode engine
2020-07-04T13:54:01Z p_l: from hw other than CPU, the system presented is equivalent to UX-series symbolics lisp machines
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2020-07-04T14:52:38Z adlai: nabataeus: there is still a teeny tiny market for the actual machines themselves, and their peripherals and replacement parts
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2020-07-04T16:31:56Z MrtnDk[m]: is Net splitty today?
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2020-07-04T16:35:07Z nabataeus: adlai: Yeah I've heard you can contact Symbolics to get your own machine.
2020-07-04T16:35:17Z nabataeus: Though it's a bit pricey, isn't it?
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2020-07-04T19:26:30Z aeth: "Closos: Specification of a Lisp operating system (2013) [pdf]" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730107
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2020-07-04T19:30:24Z anlsh: I need an automatic documentation generator that doesn't produce output that belongs in the 80s, what are my options? Codex fits the bill, but I have some problems with its markup language Scriba
2020-07-04T19:31:10Z anlsh: Coo and Staple are broken out of the box for me, Coo just doesn't do anything and Staple only produces empty pages
2020-07-04T19:33:42Z anlsh: cldomain seems promising since it would let me leverage Python's sphinx, which people actually use, but for the life of me I can't figure out how to use it
2020-07-04T19:34:10Z anlsh: In fact its github page doesn't even link to its own documentation
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2020-07-04T19:59:12Z phoe: anlsh: how is Staple broken?
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2020-07-04T20:01:19Z anlsh: phoe: In fact it doesn't look like it is. For some reason, when I was trying to use it earlier it was simply generating empty pages without any of the symbols or docstrings in my package. After restarting my lisp image, the issue seems to have gone away
2020-07-04T20:01:36Z anlsh: I'm trying to get it to render the markdown in my docstrings now
2020-07-04T20:01:54Z phoe: anlsh: I think staple needs to be loaded before your stuff is loaded because that's how it recognizes what *new* stuff has been introduced since it was loaded
2020-07-04T20:02:07Z phoe: and what it needs to put in the documentation
2020-07-04T20:03:22Z anlsh: Well the README states that "For best immediate results you should not load your system before you load Staple, so that Staple can record the packages the system defines as it is being loaded", but it looks like "best immediate results"  should be replaced with "any results at all"
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2020-07-04T20:05:30Z anlsh: I guess I thought that it would find the docstrings but not the list of packages
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2020-07-04T22:49:39Z jcowan: I would like some help figuring out what a "structure-object introspector" for programmatic use should give access to.
2020-07-04T22:50:26Z jcowan: Given a structure-class, what would be useful to extract from it?
2020-07-04T22:55:43Z phoe: since a structure-class is a standard object, I guess you can view all of its slots as if you viewed any other standard object
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2020-07-04T22:56:43Z phoe: the question is if the MOP says anything about the slots available in CLASS objects, not just STANDARD-CLASS objects
2020-07-04T22:57:24Z phoe: ...not really, http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-class.html says nothing in particular
2020-07-04T22:57:45Z phoe: so we can't really portably infer anything about the contents of STRUCTURE-CLASS objects by looking at CLASS objects
2020-07-04T22:58:26Z phoe: unless you find some other way in the MOP that I am not yet aware of
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2020-07-04T22:58:36Z Bike: what you should be looking at is whether class-slots as a method on structure-class (it doesn't). mop doesn't define any standard class's slots
2020-07-04T22:58:38Z phoe: or decide to go for some sort of a portability library.
2020-07-04T22:58:57Z phoe: Bike: ah, correct!
2020-07-04T22:59:09Z Bike: has a method*
2020-07-04T22:59:55Z Bike: that said, implementations generally have one as an extension, or have class hierarchy changes for it
2020-07-04T23:00:24Z phoe: if slot-value works on all implementations then I guess class-slots should, too
2020-07-04T23:00:31Z phoe: s/slot-value/slot-value on structs/
2020-07-04T23:00:44Z phoe: even though it's technically UB
2020-07-04T23:02:06Z grewal: Is "Common Lisp in the Wild: Deploying Common Lisp Apps with Confidence" by Wimpie Nortje worth buying?
2020-07-04T23:03:47Z Bike: slot-value could work even if class-slots doesn't, i suppose
2020-07-04T23:03:55Z Bike: don't know why it would be done that way, of course
2020-07-04T23:04:21Z phoe: Bike: hence "should"
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2020-07-04T23:04:29Z Bike: oh
2020-07-04T23:04:35Z phoe: obviously we're already in UB territory, so everything can go
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2020-07-04T23:53:34Z ealfonso: is there a webdav client? I only know of cl-webdav, which is a server, and cadaver which is CLI
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2020-07-05T00:19:25Z jcowan: It would certainly have to be a portability library.
2020-07-05T00:20:24Z jcowan: But my question is not "What facilities do existing CLs actually provide?" but "What facilities should such a library provide?"  The first can be settled by investigation, the second only by design.
2020-07-05T00:21:39Z jcowan: The maximalist version would be something that given a structure-object would return its structure-class, and then functions or methods that given a structure-class would return the de re values of the keyword arguments to defstruct (that is, the actual functions etc., not their names).
2020-07-05T00:22:29Z jcowan: That would be sufficient, given a structure-class, to construct another structure-class just like it (using eval); if you don't want to use eval, there would also need to be a function that is the equivalent of defstruct.
2020-07-05T00:24:01Z jcowan: The first requirement is met by class-of, at least I hope it is.  But is it actually necessary in practice to find out *all* those things about a given structure-object in order to usefully manipulate it without knowing the names of the copier, constructor, predicate, etc. etc.?
2020-07-05T00:24:20Z jcowan: IOW, is there a subset of them that is still useful?
2020-07-05T00:26:27Z Bike: if i was designing from scratch i would drop the defstruct interface because it sucks, and instead have a new metaclass/whatever that indicates no redefinition is possible but still defines through defclass
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2020-07-05T00:40:52Z jcowan: I see there is a QL library called deftclass that allows you to create a class as if it were a struct: that is, with minimum mental (and typing) overhead.  I haven't explored it closely yet.
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2020-07-05T01:45:08Z aeth: Bike: no need for that to be a from-scratch design since you could just deprecate DEFSTRUCT and have it simply be sugar for creating the metaclass (as well as the handful of other things it creates, like COPY-FOO and MAKE-FOO)
2020-07-05T01:45:56Z aeth: (well... to be deprecated in a future revision, which is even more meaningless than being deprecated)
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2020-07-05T01:52:37Z aeth: A standard implementation of DEFSTRUCT on top of DEFCLASS could be an interesting CDR, if people still do that.
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2020-07-05T02:08:30Z coltkirk: hello, i'm tying to use the maiden package to make an irc bot (in another room). https://pastebin.com/vSbm6vrJ there's the paste. I'm using slime/sbcl.
2020-07-05T02:09:00Z Bike: are you running into a problem?
2020-07-05T02:09:52Z coltkirk: yes, I type the code in exactly as the official documentation states, but get several errors. The connection attempts but fails in a loop
2020-07-05T02:21:03Z Bike: i probably can't help you, but you'll get better advice if you describe the problem in detail, such as by putting the error messages in a pastebin
2020-07-05T02:22:45Z ealfonso: I like the explicit error handling approach of golang and google c++ statusor, is there something similar in lisp?
2020-07-05T02:23:42Z Bike: how does it work?
2020-07-05T02:26:36Z ealfonso: in c++ there is a type StatusOr<T>, which could be a value or an error. then there are macros: ASSIGN_OR_RETURN(auto value, file::GetFileContents(filename));
2020-07-05T02:27:29Z ealfonso: GetFileContents may return a status (error), which is propagated to the caller of the function containing ASSIGN_OR_RETURN
2020-07-05T02:27:35Z Bike: so an option type?
2020-07-05T02:27:50Z ealfonso: assuming that function also has a StatusOr<T> type
2020-07-05T02:27:56Z ealfonso: return type.
2020-07-05T02:30:44Z ealfonso: yeah, I wasn't familiar with the name "option type". I haven't seen much CL code using this pattenr
2020-07-05T02:31:14Z Bike: me neither. it's related to having things that return a value or nil, but more involved with the monad kind of stuff
2020-07-05T02:40:51Z ealfonso: the thing about returning nil for an error is that it makes it hard for a lower-level utility function to propagate the reason of an error up the stack to a caller who may be in a better position to handle it, e.g. display a message to the user, try again, etc. of course this could be done using conditions.
2020-07-05T02:41:42Z ealfonso: but it seems more tedious to define the condition, handle it.
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2020-07-05T02:42:52Z ealfonso: if-let doesn't give you context on where execution stopped because of a nil, and why
2020-07-05T02:44:42Z ealfonso: another problem with nil as sentinel for error is that it conflicts with "empty, no error"
2020-07-05T02:50:05Z ealfonso: one could write an "if-let-ok" macro, where the let expressions return an option type as 2-values, and with the "else" clause capturing the first non-ok option. but it would be an uphill battle since most existing code doesn't use this convention.
2020-07-05T02:54:04Z jcowan: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-189/srfi-189.html is a very new proposal for Maybe aka Option and Either types for Scheme, but there is no reason it couldn't be translated to CL.  It also has a number of protocol converters that interchange between Maybe objects and various other conventions: value or NIL, 1 or more values or 0 values, etc. etc.
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2020-07-05T03:05:04Z ealfonso: interesting. yeah, I'm curious to follow how that will go, and maybe it could be adapted to CL.
2020-07-05T03:06:26Z ealfonso: for now I will start using an "if-let-ok" macro pattern for new code and seeing how it goes
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2020-07-05T03:14:04Z Bike: i feel like monads use some of their luster in an environment that doesn't use a lot of pattern matching
2020-07-05T03:14:37Z coltkirk: for what it's worth, although the new package 'maiden,' does not work as described, the former package 'colleen' seems to work just fine.
2020-07-05T03:14:41Z Bike: plus Just conses
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2020-07-05T03:42:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-07-05T03:59:59Z jcowan: ealfonso: It's stable now.
2020-07-05T04:00:47Z jcowan: The general monad library does what Haskell does under the covers: you pass around an object with procedures in it that contain the basic necessities.
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2020-07-05T04:06:33Z beach: aeth: Do you happen to know who started the CLOSOS reference in that discussion?
2020-07-05T04:10:50Z beach: Speaking of DEFSTRUCT, I think I will do exactly what is suggested.  It will just be a layer on top of the general STANDARD-CLASS features, with a separate metaclass and an additional superclass.  So STRUCTURE-CLASS will be at the same level as STANDARD-CLASS in the hierarchy, and STRUCTURE-OBJECT will be a direct subclass of STANDARD-OBJECT, or a parallel one in case it is not allowed to have it a subclass.
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2020-07-05T04:12:47Z Bike: i think that would be allowed by 4.2.2
2020-07-05T04:12:57Z beach: Yeah, I think so too.
2020-07-05T04:13:11Z jcowan: THat makes a lot of sense to me.
2020-07-05T04:13:12Z Bike: well, depending on ho w"that does not already specify either" etc is interpreted
2020-07-05T04:13:57Z beach: It is not that important.  I can change it easily if that should be required.
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2020-07-05T06:35:01Z matzy_: does anyone else find cl-dbi to be weird when trying to POST data to a mysql table?
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2020-07-05T07:46:08Z phoe: hmmmm
2020-07-05T07:46:26Z phoe: I have a method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER that validates the keyword arguments and stuff
2020-07-05T07:46:52Z phoe: but I just came into a situation where I want REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE to also perform that validation
2020-07-05T07:47:08Z beach: Do it on SHARED-INITIALIZE instead.
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2020-07-05T07:48:21Z phoe: yes, I'm just thinking if I've been doing The Incorrect Thing™ for this whole time - using INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :BEFORE/:AFTER for validating stuff
2020-07-05T07:48:39Z beach: It happens.
2020-07-05T07:48:41Z phoe: since REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE will not perform that validation
2020-07-05T07:48:49Z beach: Indeed.
2020-07-05T07:48:56Z beach: phoe: Is the online Lisp meeting still on tomorrow?
2020-07-05T07:48:58Z phoe: like, time to rewrite all the code I've written so far
2020-07-05T07:49:00Z phoe: beach: yes
2020-07-05T07:49:06Z beach: What time?
2020-07-05T07:49:12Z phoe: 13:00 CEST
2020-07-05T07:49:22Z beach: Perfect.
2020-07-05T07:49:30Z beach: What is CEST?  UTC+2?
2020-07-05T07:50:07Z beach: I mean the `S' suggests "standard", but we are on daylight savings time.
2020-07-05T07:50:42Z beach: So logically, if it is UTC+2, it should be CEDT, but I don't much like those abbreviations, no doubt inspired from the US.
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2020-07-05T07:51:10Z phoe: ha! it means Central European Summer Time
2020-07-05T07:51:18Z beach: Ouch.
2020-07-05T07:51:28Z phoe: I had to double-check because I also thought it was "standard"
2020-07-05T07:51:30Z phoe: https://time.is/pl/CEST
2020-07-05T07:52:24Z beach: OK.
2020-07-05T07:53:05Z beach: And is there more than one presentation?
2020-07-05T07:53:38Z beach: My (admittedly small) family seems to get email from you, but I don't, and idurand does not get any either, I think.
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2020-07-05T07:54:22Z phoe: huh!
2020-07-05T07:54:31Z phoe: are you subscribed to https://mailman.common-lisp.net/listinfo/online-lisp-meets ?
2020-07-05T07:54:48Z phoe: my mail is there: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/online-lisp-meets/2020-June/000013.html
2020-07-05T07:54:49Z beach: I wasn't aware of its existence.
2020-07-05T07:54:58Z phoe: now you are, then!
2020-07-05T07:55:05Z beach: Yes, thanks.
2020-07-05T07:58:51Z flip214_: Can I print a simple-base-string with a max number of characters, with "..." appended if it is cut short? FORMAT doesn't do that, sb-ext:*print-vector-length* isn't standard. Is there some other *print-...* special I can use?
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2020-07-05T08:05:04Z phoe: flip214_: AFAIK not
2020-07-05T08:05:11Z phoe: nothing in the standard
2020-07-05T08:06:10Z phoe: beach: hey, SHARED-INITIALIZE is a pleasure to use
2020-07-05T08:06:14Z pve: flip214_: unless you're doing a library, I guess you could define a print-object method that checks if *chop-strings* is non-nil
2020-07-05T08:06:21Z beach: phoe: I agree.
2020-07-05T08:08:41Z beach: pve: What would that method specialize to?
2020-07-05T08:10:30Z pve: beach: not sure.. simple-base-string?
2020-07-05T08:10:35Z phoe: pve: can't
2020-07-05T08:10:42Z beach: That would be non-conforming.
2020-07-05T08:10:56Z pve: then today I learned
2020-07-05T08:11:22Z phoe: you cannot define a method on a standard generic function whose specializers are all standard as well
2020-07-05T08:11:28Z phoe: since these are reserved to the Lisp system
2020-07-05T08:11:51Z phoe: so e.g. you cannot (defmethod print-object ((object string) stream) ...)
2020-07-05T08:12:19Z pve: no fun :(
2020-07-05T08:12:36Z pve: i mean, makes sense
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2020-07-05T08:13:05Z beach: The exact rule is, you can't define a method on a specified generic function that is applicable when given only instances of specified classes.  And that rule is not restricted to Common Lisp.  It is valid for (well written) libraries as well.
2020-07-05T08:13:29Z phoe: re previous discussion: now I need to figure out whether I want SHARED-INITIALIZE :BEFORE, SHARED-INITIALIZE :AFTER, or disqualified SHARED-INITIALIZE with CALL-NEXT-METHOD inside...
2020-07-05T08:13:33Z phoe: hm
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2020-07-05T08:14:39Z beach: phoe: You want a primary method or an :AROUND method if you need to modify the arguments in some situtations.
2020-07-05T08:14:42Z beach: situations
2020-07-05T08:15:27Z phoe: beach: in this case, I want just to signal an error if validation fails.
2020-07-05T08:15:40Z beach: Then :BEFORE or :AFTER are fine.
2020-07-05T08:16:08Z phoe: ...oh wow! primary/around methods on SHARED-INITIALIZE is immune to that one issue that I've noticed with INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER constructors
2020-07-05T08:16:23Z phoe: namely that the CHECK-TYPE restart misbehaves in INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER
2020-07-05T08:16:57Z phoe: today I became a better Lisp programmer
2020-07-05T08:17:06Z beach: Congratulations!
2020-07-05T08:17:30Z pve: Where does it say you can't do naughty things with print-object? I can't seem to find it..
2020-07-05T08:18:09Z phoe: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2020-07-05T08:18:10Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
2020-07-05T08:18:12Z phoe: point 19
2020-07-05T08:18:21Z phoe: "19. Defining a method for a standardized generic function which is applicable when all of the arguments are direct instances of standardized classes."
2020-07-05T08:18:46Z pve: ah, thanks
2020-07-05T08:18:58Z pve: I was reading print-object like an idiot
2020-07-05T08:19:07Z phoe: not really like an idiot
2020-07-05T08:19:17Z phoe: the standard gets some time to get used to
2020-07-05T08:19:25Z phoe: and things inside it are really in weird places sometimes
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2020-07-05T08:24:46Z beach: phoe: Here is another thing that will make you a (slightly) better programmer.  Standard FIND-METHOD takes either a class metaobject or a list (EQL object) in the list of specializers.  But accepting a class name is an SBCL extension.
2020-07-05T08:25:25Z beach: phoe: You use this extension to remove a method on PRINT-OBJECT if the :REPORT option is absent.
2020-07-05T08:25:43Z phoe: beach: :REPORT, you mean for conditions?
2020-07-05T08:25:49Z beach: Yes.
2020-07-05T08:26:11Z beach: My current mission is to study your portable condition system.
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2020-07-05T08:29:59Z matzy_: is it possible to check the types of each individual memnber of a list?  i'm having a hard time finding function that does that on the hyperspec
2020-07-05T08:30:49Z beach: Are they all of the same type?
2020-07-05T08:34:47Z beach: Or, if not, and if you can describe the types as a regular expression, you can use the RTE technique designed by Jim Newton and Didier Verna.
2020-07-05T08:36:34Z phoe: matzy_: you can, (every (rcurry #'typep 'foo) list)
2020-07-05T08:36:58Z phoe: or, if you want a type-system solution, what beach said
2020-07-05T08:38:14Z matzy_: its confusing, because i'm passing them as URL params in a POST body, but cl-dbi will only take them if I wrap each in double-quotes and even then smashes them into the same column with the column names included
2020-07-05T08:39:22Z matzy_: i'm admitting the first column which is an auto-incrementing id column from my INSERT, but I assume that OK
2020-07-05T08:40:40Z flip214_: phoe: pve: thanks!
2020-07-05T08:41:04Z pve: flip214_: I was wrong, don't do what I said
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2020-07-05T09:03:02Z phoe: CLOS really is amazing
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2020-07-05T09:08:08Z phoe: making instantiation, reinitialization, and two kinds of updates programmable
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2020-07-05T09:36:52Z gaqwas: hello
2020-07-05T09:36:54Z gaqwas: uhm... is this a typo in the HyperSpec?
2020-07-05T09:37:02Z gaqwas: "In an unless form, if the test-form yields *false*, the forms are evaluated[..] Otherwise, if the test-form yields *false* (sic?), the forms are not evaluated, "
2020-07-05T09:37:11Z gaqwas: I'm a beginner
2020-07-05T09:38:33Z phoe: gaqwas: most possible
2020-07-05T09:38:34Z phoe: which page is that?
2020-07-05T09:39:14Z phoe: if it's UNLESS, then it's known
2020-07-05T09:39:18Z phoe: see https://www.cliki.net/ANSI%20Clarifications%20and%20Errata
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2020-07-05T09:40:36Z gaqwas: phoe, this page: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_when_.htm
2020-07-05T09:41:05Z gaqwas: ah, okay. Thank you, phoe
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2020-07-05T09:49:02Z aeth: beach: Sorry, I don't recognize the name of the thread's original poster.
2020-07-05T09:55:51Z beach: aeth: OK, not important.  Thanks for trying.
2020-07-05T09:58:20Z beach: aeth: I am not use to Hacker News.  Is it possible, starting from that link, to back up in the history?
2020-07-05T09:58:41Z aeth: It looks like they posted twice: https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=ska80
2020-07-05T09:58:46Z aeth: once 6 months ago
2020-07-05T09:58:54Z aeth: (posted the link, I mean)
2020-07-05T09:59:04Z aeth: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=ska80
2020-07-05T09:59:05Z beach: I see.  Thanks again.
2020-07-05T10:02:03Z beach: It seems I can only get to the thread starting with heisig.
2020-07-05T10:04:29Z aeth: You can click on the [-] to collapse that thread. It's a bit hard to see the left line by default (I actually modify the style locally with a browser plugin)
2020-07-05T10:04:50Z aeth: There are only two other comments outside of that thread
2020-07-05T10:06:39Z beach: OK, thanks.  I don't think this stuff was made for me.  I wasn't looking to collapse the thread.  I was wondering what prompted heisig to talk about CLOSOS, but I see now way to get to the previous message in the thread.
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2020-07-05T10:07:06Z beach: Maybe there isn't one, and heisig decided to spontaneously write this.
2020-07-05T10:07:28Z aeth: oh sorry, I guess you haven't seen the website before. The thread is about Closos
2020-07-05T10:07:48Z aeth: These sorts of websites are structured so that there's a link or a text post at the top, and everything else is a threaded reply to it
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2020-07-05T10:08:00Z aeth: The top level is: Closos: Specification of a Lisp operating system (2013) [pdf] (metamodular.com) which is a link to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730107
2020-07-05T10:08:16Z aeth: so ska80 started the conversation on CLOSOS, not heisig
2020-07-05T10:08:26Z beach: So the first post was just a link to my pdf?
2020-07-05T10:08:27Z beach: OK.
2020-07-05T10:08:39Z aeth: yes
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2020-07-05T10:08:52Z beach: I get it now.  Thanks for all your help.
2020-07-05T10:09:38Z aeth: You're welcome. And, yes, that website design was confusing to me, too, when I first saw it, probably 10 years ago.
2020-07-05T10:10:19Z beach: I can imagine.  I don't have time to hang out in yet another place.  Especially one with this kind of exchange.  So I will probably always be confused.
2020-07-05T10:10:32Z aeth: It's a forum started by Paul Graham, so Lisp stuff sometimes trends on it, but not anywhere near as much as it used to.
2020-07-05T10:11:09Z beach: I think I must have heard that somewhere.
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2020-07-05T10:11:35Z aeth: It is the only known piece of public software written in Arc, the Lisp language that flopped. (Other than Arc implementations themselves, of course.)
2020-07-05T10:11:52Z beach: Interesting.
2020-07-05T10:12:01Z aeth: So I guess that dates the website to 2008.
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2020-07-05T10:39:32Z phoe: Hmmmm
2020-07-05T10:39:56Z phoe: if I want to use CHECK-TYPE properly inside SHARED-INITIALIZE, I assume that I must do that inside an :AROUND or primary method
2020-07-05T10:40:13Z phoe: and then CALL-NEXT-METHOD explicitly with all arguments, in case the CHECK-TYPE restart modifies the variables
2020-07-05T10:40:57Z phoe: seems verbose; I wonder how I can shrink it
2020-07-05T10:44:07Z phoe: hm
2020-07-05T10:44:10Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1940#1940
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2020-07-05T10:46:02Z phoe: that is it for four slots
2020-07-05T10:47:22Z aeth: phoe: You might be approaching the problem wrong. Personally, I type check at slot setting (to cover initialization and setters). Unfortunately, because this uses the MOP, I have to use ASSERT instead of CHECK-TYPE because the type isn't available at compile time. https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zr-utils/-/blob/master/metaobject.lisp
2020-07-05T10:47:29Z aeth: There might be another, better place to intercept things, too.
2020-07-05T10:48:51Z phoe: oh right, typed slots
2020-07-05T10:49:12Z phoe: can I use that with typechecking lists? like, assert that every element of the list is of type FOO
2020-07-05T10:49:19Z aeth: Well, yes and no. You can't rely on :type because SBCL doesn't typecheck at default optimization levels, which means that 80-90% of your users won't actually have typechecks there if you use :type
2020-07-05T10:49:28Z phoe: aeth: I mean *custom* typed slots
2020-07-05T10:49:29Z aeth: You also can't call it :type and override it iirc
2020-07-05T10:49:32Z aeth: So I call it :checked-type
2020-07-05T10:49:35Z aeth: Maybe there's a better name
2020-07-05T10:49:45Z phoe: yes, that sounds okay
2020-07-05T10:50:27Z aeth: phoe: You can of course use a SATISFIES type, but I probably should just make it a generalized precondition/postcondition system since I'm using ASSERT anyway.
2020-07-05T10:50:39Z aeth: (Which probably means up to two asserts per slot.)
2020-07-05T10:51:51Z aeth: I should probably move the file I linked to into its own library because it's independent of my zr-utils and it's pretty much complete and usable, unlike the rest of it.
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2020-07-05T10:53:02Z phoe: tempting
2020-07-05T10:53:10Z phoe: I'll think of using it if/when you do so
2020-07-05T10:53:52Z aeth: The hardest part is probably naming it
2020-07-05T10:54:01Z phoe: "checked-slots"
2020-07-05T10:54:10Z phoe: or "typechecked-slots"
2020-07-05T10:54:27Z phoe: also, line 33 has a bug - it's ASSERT TYPEP, not CHECK-TYPE
2020-07-05T10:54:52Z phoe: and so the established restart is named CONTINUE instead of STORE-VALUE
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2020-07-05T10:55:31Z aeth: Well, it wouldn't just be type checked because I'd add a second slot for general assertions, mainly for sequence/etc. checking.
2020-07-05T10:55:33Z phoe: I'd actually be pedantic and manually expand a CHECK-TYPE in there to make it possible to pass the type dynamically at runtime, so the STORE-VALUE restart is preserved
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2020-07-05T10:55:39Z phoe: oh! welll then
2020-07-05T10:55:44Z phoe: "pedantic-slots"
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2020-07-05T10:57:05Z aeth: phoe: How could you use a CHECK-TYPE at all in there? CHECK-TYPE's type isn't quoted. MACROLET?
2020-07-05T10:57:31Z aeth: I don't think I've ever used a MACROLET because they're nearly impossible to debug when someone else uses them.
2020-07-05T10:58:48Z aeth: Although if I guess if I did use a CHECK-TYPE it would probably make the other custom argument fairly obvious: checked-assertion...
2020-07-05T10:59:10Z phoe: aeth: don't
2020-07-05T10:59:35Z phoe: I'd write my own CHECK-TYPE equivalent that evaluates the type argument
2020-07-05T11:01:20Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1941#1941
2020-07-05T11:02:09Z phoe: plus minus ONCE-ONLY on the TYPE variable
2020-07-05T11:02:31Z phoe: one sec, let me fix this...
2020-07-05T11:05:05Z phoe: there
2020-07-05T11:05:17Z phoe: should compile fine
2020-07-05T11:05:28Z phoe: based on quickly and roughly adapted PCS code
2020-07-05T11:06:08Z phoe: feel free to use this code freely since it's CC0
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2020-07-05T11:14:14Z aeth: thanks
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2020-07-05T11:19:14Z phoe: (huh, writing this kind of stuff becomes suspiciously trivial once you've written your own condition system)
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2020-07-05T11:47:42Z aeth: phoe: Oh, can you look over my conditions file? https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zr-utils/-/blob/master/conditions.lisp
2020-07-05T11:48:08Z aeth: phoe: Those were the most common (error foo) patterns in my engine so I turned those into define-conditions a while back.
2020-07-05T11:49:08Z aeth: The idea of putting it in my utility library (and I might even move that into its own standalone library) is that that makes it easier for different libraries/programs to use the same conditions
2020-07-05T11:50:58Z phoe: aeth: you don't export accessors
2020-07-05T11:51:33Z aeth: Oh, hmm, I guess I don't. This is why I like exports at the top of the file. Makes it easier to spot that kind of thing.
2020-07-05T11:52:04Z phoe: a unit test suite would have caught this sort of thing - which is why I try to unit test every single thing I can
2020-07-05T11:52:16Z aeth: I didn't want to unit test my util library until I spun it off.
2020-07-05T11:52:23Z aeth: which was fairly recently
2020-07-05T11:52:23Z phoe: gotcha
2020-07-05T11:52:59Z phoe: I'd split longer report functions into their own named functions, but that's a matter of taste
2020-07-05T11:53:48Z aeth: I probably will build those out of helper functions/macros at some point, but I haven't written enough to make clear patterns
2020-07-05T11:54:01Z phoe: and the starting vowel kind of stuff literally begs to be a helper function unto its own
2020-07-05T11:54:22Z phoe: that nested IF also kind of wants to be rewritten as a COND
2020-07-05T11:55:34Z aeth: yeah, I'm not very happy with that lambda in general... it was pretty tricky to write and iirc it was more about getting it to work correctly with the (REPL, not unit) tests.
2020-07-05T11:55:49Z phoe: oh right
2020-07-05T11:55:56Z aeth: Quite a few different branches, but they're all useful because of how common that error is
2020-07-05T11:56:14Z phoe: another reason for unit tests, one can refactor and check if they still pass
2020-07-05T11:56:52Z aeth: Right, which is probably why I haven't refactored it yet
2020-07-05T11:57:37Z aeth: I could probably build required-input-error into another, third assertion in the checked-types metaclass
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2020-07-05T13:01:37Z ym: Hi. Should #+t (princ 'test) work? Doesn't work for me with sbcl 2.0.1.
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2020-07-05T13:02:23Z Bike: #+t means it checks if :t is in *features*, and it probably isn't.
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2020-07-05T13:02:35Z Inline: heh
2020-07-05T13:02:51Z Bike: you can use #+(and) if you want something facile
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2020-07-05T13:05:22Z ym: Oh. Got it. Thanks.
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2020-07-05T13:11:56Z TMA: ym: or #-(or) for one character shorter alternative
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2020-07-05T14:10:03Z jcowan: aeth: I never thought macrolet/let-syntax made very much sense.  "In section 2 of this paper, the notation A ~ B means blablabla, but in all other sections it means bliblibli".  Who organizes papers like that?
2020-07-05T14:16:50Z Bike: that seems like more generally a problem with shadowing
2020-07-05T14:16:56Z Bike: which is indeed kinda crap most of the time
2020-07-05T14:17:13Z phoe: you mean lexical shadowing?
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2020-07-05T14:19:22Z Bike: are there other kinds? like in a package i guess? yes, i mean lexical
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2020-07-05T14:19:46Z Bike: i use macrolet but not for shadowing
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2020-07-05T14:23:07Z jcowan: In Dijkstra's guarded-command language, if you refer to a variable in an inner block you must redeclare it there
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2020-07-05T15:48:09Z phoe: aaaa
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2020-07-05T15:48:24Z phoe: my SHARED-INITIALIZE method is buggy
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2020-07-05T16:11:56Z phoe: Should (REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE X) generally be a no-op? Is that the idea behind it?
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2020-07-05T16:12:08Z phoe: I mean, I explicitly provide no initargs there.
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2020-07-05T16:13:49Z beach: Sounds right.
2020-07-05T16:15:07Z beach: I mean, I don't think there is a requirement like that.  If you stick an :AROUND method that supplies initargs, I don't think that is illegal.
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2020-07-05T16:17:29Z phoe: "The generic function reinitialize-instance can be used to change the values of local slots of an instance according to initargs."
2020-07-05T16:18:03Z phoe: I can kinda infer that if the user supplies no INITARGS then the user may expect nothing to change
2020-07-05T16:18:10Z phoe: but then again, nothing is really set in stone on that CLHS page
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2020-07-05T16:18:17Z phoe: www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_reinit.htm
2020-07-05T16:18:33Z beach: Sure, but it depends on who the "user" is here.
2020-07-05T16:18:33Z phoe: but
2020-07-05T16:18:35Z phoe: clhs 7.3
2020-07-05T16:18:35Z specbot: Reinitializing an Instance: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_c.htm
2020-07-05T16:18:44Z phoe: "The process of reinitialization changes the values of some slots (...)"
2020-07-05T16:18:55Z phoe: okay then, mutation can freely happen
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2020-07-05T16:22:50Z phoe: the initialization subsystem of CLOS is fascinating
2020-07-05T16:22:55Z Bike: what are you expecting to call reinitialize-instance with no kwargs anyway?
2020-07-05T16:23:32Z phoe: Bike: because I can - "This generic function can be called by users."
2020-07-05T16:23:42Z phoe: and mostly to verify that my custom methods don't break stuff
2020-07-05T16:24:07Z phoe: I ran into an issue where my buggy code cleared out values of slots after calling REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE with no initargs
2020-07-05T16:24:16Z phoe: and that definitely was not my intent
2020-07-05T16:24:20Z Bike: yeah that's definitely wrong at least.
2020-07-05T16:24:34Z Bike: but if you want reinitialize-instance to refresh its place in an external store or something that would probably be okay.
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2020-07-05T16:24:46Z phoe: I mean, yes, it *may* be correct in some contexts
2020-07-05T16:25:02Z Bike: since you're the user in this scenario, it can do whatever
2020-07-05T16:25:08Z phoe: yep
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2020-07-05T19:41:09Z pimpom: Can I "expand a list" an pass the contents as input to a function in CL? E.g. I have some function (defun some-fun (arg1 &rest args) ...) and want to pass "args" as several arguments to another function call within this function.
2020-07-05T19:41:20Z Bike: clhs apply
2020-07-05T19:41:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
2020-07-05T19:41:27Z Bike: use that.
2020-07-05T19:44:31Z pimpom: That worked, thanks!
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2020-07-05T21:47:45Z phoe: What is the easiest way to define two packages that cross-reference each other via local nicknames?
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2020-07-05T22:20:13Z Bike: phoe: with sbcl's interface, call add-package-local-nickname for one, i guess. gets annoying if you also want to be able to reeevaluate defpackage forms without complaint, tho
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2020-07-05T22:22:11Z phoe: Bike: I got UIOP:DEFINE-PACKAGE for all my reevaluation needs
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2020-07-06T00:14:39Z aeth: phoe: Thanks for your input earlier. I fixed the two issues you spotted and I'm going to think about how to approach the typecheck soon.
2020-07-06T00:16:22Z aeth: I'm not sure if I'll do that right away or if I'll do some graphics stuff first. I haven't done any graphics in a while and I'm thinking of some simple (3D, but effectively behaving the same as isometric) tiles.
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2020-07-06T03:00:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-07-06T05:38:12Z madrik: If certain keyword arguments are accepted only by one Lisp and not another, how should I write the feature conditionals?
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2020-07-06T05:41:15Z ErichHyuuga: hey guys
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2020-07-06T05:42:43Z beach: Hello ErichHyuuga.
2020-07-06T05:42:56Z ErichHyuuga: Eat my diarrhea
2020-07-06T05:42:57Z ErichHyuuga: Just...
2020-07-06T05:42:58Z ErichHyuuga: Just ate a burger at the sleazy joint
2020-07-06T05:43:00Z ErichHyuuga: Now I gotta take a shit, get to the point
2020-07-06T05:43:03Z ErichHyuuga: Sittin' on the toilet, my ass is a blast
2020-07-06T05:43:05Z ErichHyuuga: Runnin' smelly diarrhea outta my ass
2020-07-06T05:43:09Z ErichHyuuga: No f*ckin' paper
2020-07-06T05:43:11Z ErichHyuuga: Hey baby lick my ass 'til your face turns blue
2020-07-06T05:43:13Z ErichHyuuga: You're finished rimmin' me and you want some more
2020-07-06T05:43:15Z ErichHyuuga: Ya say ya don't flush but your out the door
2020-07-06T05:43:17Z ErichHyuuga: I'm back in the...with a cup
2020-07-06T05:43:19Z ErichHyuuga: Scoop it outta the toilet 'cause you wanna slurp it up
2020-07-06T05:43:21Z ErichHyuuga: Eat my diarrhea you're chuggin' it down
2020-07-06T05:43:23Z ErichHyuuga: You're suckin' my ass and your lips are all brown
2020-07-06T05:43:25Z ErichHyuuga: Since we've gone back to the hamburger place
2020-07-06T05:43:28Z ErichHyuuga: I'm gonna stick my ass right on your face
2020-07-06T05:43:29Z ErichHyuuga: I'm gonna shit in your mouth
2020-07-06T05:43:33Z ErichHyuuga: I'm gonna shit in your face, your mouth
2020-07-06T05:43:36Z ErichHyuuga: And I wanna shit on your mother
2020-07-06T05:43:37Z ErichHyuuga: I'm gonna shit on you and your mother
2020-07-06T05:43:40Z ErichHyuuga: Diarrhea
2020-07-06T05:43:42Z ErichHyuuga: I gotta take a shit
2020-07-06T05:43:43Z ErichHyuuga: Gotta bottle a Ex-Lax, gonna take it
2020-07-06T05:43:45Z ErichHyuuga: I'm gonna take me a lumpy shit
2020-07-06T05:43:47Z ErichHyuuga: Gonna throw it at you, I hope I hit you
2020-07-06T05:43:51Z ErichHyuuga: I hope it splats in your face there too
2020-07-06T05:43:52Z ErichHyuuga: It's comin' out my ass all drippin' wet
2020-07-06T05:43:53Z ErichHyuuga: It's comin' out my ass all drippin' wet
2020-07-06T05:43:53Z beach: madrik: That depends a lot.
2020-07-06T05:43:55Z ErichHyuuga: I want you to suck up all of it
2020-07-06T05:43:57Z ErichHyuuga: Lick my ass and eat it too
2020-07-06T05:43:59Z ErichHyuuga: Cause diarrhea is good for you
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2020-07-06T05:44:03Z ErichHyuuga: Ya eat it, eat it, eat
2020-07-06T05:44:05Z ErichHyuuga: Eat it, eat it, eat
2020-07-06T05:44:08Z ErichHyuuga: Diarrhea
2020-07-06T05:44:09Z ErichHyuuga: Eat my f*ckin' shit
2020-07-06T05:44:37Z beach: madrik: It depends on whether different implementations require the argument, or whether it is optional.
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2020-07-06T05:47:04Z madrik: beach: E.g. CCL has a :SHARING keyword argument for WITH-OPEN-FILE, which takes one of three values.
2020-07-06T05:47:34Z madrik: Right now, I have this:   #+ccl :sharing #+ccl :external
2020-07-06T05:47:55Z beach: I don't think you can do better.
2020-07-06T05:48:05Z madrik: Okay, thanks.
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2020-07-06T05:49:06Z beach: If they are the last ones, you might get away with something like (bla bla . #ccl (:sharing :external)).
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2020-07-06T05:49:23Z beach: Nah, that won't work.
2020-07-06T05:50:12Z beach: It would have to be #+ccl (:sharing :external) #-ccl '()
2020-07-06T05:50:21Z beach: You get the picture.  Not an improvement.
2020-07-06T05:50:34Z madrik: Yes.
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2020-07-06T08:01:25Z matzy_: can you connect mito to a remote database, like one on RDS?  I tried passing :host and :port to mito:connect-toplevel but I think that's where my error is coming from
2020-07-06T08:01:33Z joels: Hello all
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2020-07-06T08:08:15Z beach: Hello joels.
2020-07-06T08:13:55Z matzy_: nvm i'm stupid
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2020-07-06T08:17:45Z vms14: how can I implement the qw function of perl in lisp?
2020-07-06T08:18:00Z Harag:  I am working my way through left over lambda, tyring the code of
2020-07-06T08:18:00Z Harag: 	(defmacro/g! nif ...) I get undefined variable g!result. Is there
2020-07-06T08:18:00Z Harag: 	something wrong with the code of defmacro/g! in then online version of
2020-07-06T08:18:00Z Harag: 	the book or am I doing something wrong?
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2020-07-06T08:18:14Z vms14: I want something like (qw there are strings there)
2020-07-06T08:18:15Z Harag: eish sorry about that broken post
2020-07-06T08:18:34Z beach: vms14: It is much better if you tell people what you want it to do, rather than assuming people know Perl.
2020-07-06T08:18:35Z vms14: and being converted to ("there" "are" "strings" "there")
2020-07-06T08:18:45Z vms14: beach: I was doing that
2020-07-06T08:19:05Z beach: vms14: Well, first of all, qw can't be written as a function.
2020-07-06T08:19:21Z vms14: the thing is, if I make a macro, and convert symbols to strings, the print case won't let me have mixed case,not?
2020-07-06T08:19:21Z beach: Because functions evaluate their arguments, and you apparently don't want that.
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2020-07-06T08:19:43Z vms14: I only see in *print-case* :downcase :capitalize and :upcase
2020-07-06T08:20:00Z beach: Well, if you use default reader settings, then it is already too late by the time the symbol is being read.
2020-07-06T08:20:11Z vms14: then it has to be a reader macro?
2020-07-06T08:20:30Z vms14: seems the way, thanks
2020-07-06T08:20:52Z beach: It is going to be hard to keep that syntax in a reader macro.
2020-07-06T08:21:01Z vms14: then what I should aim at?
2020-07-06T08:21:38Z beach: In my opinion, you should forget about imitating the surface syntax of a language with a surface syntax that is as different from that of Common Lisp as this one seems to be.
2020-07-06T08:21:58Z beach: Or else, if Perl syntax is what you want, then don't use READ.
2020-07-06T08:22:08Z beach: Write a parser for Perl instead.
2020-07-06T08:22:25Z vms14: I just want a function/macro that turns symbols to strings
2020-07-06T08:22:38Z beach: Oh, that one is easy.
2020-07-06T08:22:39Z vms14: but, without touching the case
2020-07-06T08:22:46Z beach: That one is easy too.
2020-07-06T08:22:52Z jackdaniel: how about (string 'foo) ;?
2020-07-06T08:23:17Z beach: vms14: symbol-name does not touch the case.
2020-07-06T08:23:24Z vms14: oh, thanks
2020-07-06T08:23:39Z beach: vms14: Try (symbol-name '|aBcD|) for instance.
2020-07-06T08:24:14Z vms14: but they'll have to be between || ?
2020-07-06T08:24:17Z phoe: yes
2020-07-06T08:24:26Z phoe: it's the reader itself that upcases or downcases symbols
2020-07-06T08:24:37Z phoe: so you'll need a reader macro for that
2020-07-06T08:24:43Z vms14: thanks phoe
2020-07-06T08:24:53Z vms14: I'll try with a reader macro then
2020-07-06T08:24:58Z beach: phoe: But then vms14 can't easily write (qw ....).
2020-07-06T08:24:59Z vms14: also an excuse to learn
2020-07-06T08:25:15Z flip214_: vms14: It might look like #q(...)
2020-07-06T08:25:15Z vms14: but the reason is to not type "" for every string
2020-07-06T08:25:28Z phoe: beach: it's impossible to write that either way without a custom reader
2020-07-06T08:25:31Z vms14: if I have to use || it's almost the same
2020-07-06T08:25:41Z phoe: by the time macroexpansion happens all the symbols are already upcased
2020-07-06T08:25:59Z beach: vms14: I think it is a really bad idea to do what you seem to want.
2020-07-06T08:26:07Z phoe: vms14: if you need to use a reader macro it'll look like #{Hello world}
2020-07-06T08:26:13Z phoe: which is also almost the same
2020-07-06T08:26:31Z phoe: (mostly because || and "" are reader macros under the hood, too)
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2020-07-06T08:26:47Z vms14: didn't know "" was a reader macro
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2020-07-06T08:27:03Z phoe: hey, so are the parentheses
2020-07-06T08:27:08Z vms14: :O
2020-07-06T08:27:09Z phoe: and so is the quotation mark
2020-07-06T08:27:24Z beach: clhs "
2020-07-06T08:27:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_de.htm
2020-07-06T08:27:25Z phoe: it's really turtles all the way down, until you hit the GC
2020-07-06T08:27:36Z vms14: the quotation mark, yes, just syntax sugar for (quote)
2020-07-06T08:27:44Z flip214_: vms14: when I came over from Perl, I tried to make CL more similar to Perl, too.
2020-07-06T08:28:01Z vms14: flip214_: and what did you achieve?
2020-07-06T08:28:05Z phoe: vms14: parentheses are just syntax sugar for READ-DELIMITED-LIST
2020-07-06T08:28:31Z flip214_: After some more practice I found out that most of that stuff isn't necessary ... CL-PPCRE:SCAN is a bit longer than /../, but it gives more results back anyway
2020-07-06T08:28:54Z flip214_: so I got around to like the verbose Lisp way -- it's more readable over the long run anyway
2020-07-06T08:28:58Z vms14: I'm actually mixing perl and lisp by using sockets and perl eval XD
2020-07-06T08:29:24Z vms14: in netbsd I have some troubles, like no threads in sbcl, and most of libraries won't work
2020-07-06T08:29:32Z vms14: so perl will be the lisp libraries
2020-07-06T08:29:51Z vms14: actually using sdl from perl, and wanting to do the logic in lisp
2020-07-06T08:31:04Z flip214_: why not embrace lisp symbols, and just serialize them as strings to perl?
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2020-07-06T08:31:36Z flip214_: I did a reader macro that kept case for me; then I could write §MixedCase-Symbol or §(Mixed List)
2020-07-06T08:31:53Z flip214_: I needed that for JSON serialization (right case for keys)
2020-07-06T08:31:53Z vms14: just wanted to have the qw function in lisp
2020-07-06T08:32:16Z phoe: can't do that without a reader macro
2020-07-06T08:32:22Z vms14: yeah, I'll try
2020-07-06T08:32:30Z vms14: thanks phoe
2020-07-06T08:33:02Z phoe: I assume you could do stuff like #{foo bar baz QuUx} that evaluates to ("foo" "bar" "baz" "QuUx")
2020-07-06T08:34:45Z vms14: that's what I want
2020-07-06T08:35:17Z phoe: totally doable with a reader macro then
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2020-07-06T08:38:28Z beach: vms14: According to what you said, that is NOT what you want.  You said you wanted to be able to write (qw ...).
2020-07-06T08:38:49Z vms14: yes, but the only way seems to be a reader macro
2020-07-06T08:38:57Z vms14: so qw{} it's kinda fine
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2020-07-06T08:39:01Z vms14: or alike
2020-07-06T08:39:13Z vms14: and even more alike to perl
2020-07-06T08:39:30Z beach: vms14: It is mystery to me why that particular reader macro is acceptable, but (qw ".." "...") is not.
2020-07-06T08:39:52Z vms14: cause the reason is I'm lazy to put ""
2020-07-06T08:39:54Z vms14: xd
2020-07-06T08:40:22Z vms14: and it's a nice excuse to learn how to make a reader macro, which always wanted to do
2020-07-06T08:40:30Z beach: Good luck!
2020-07-06T08:40:36Z vms14: thanks :D
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2020-07-06T08:54:04Z phoe: huh
2020-07-06T08:54:09Z phoe: where is the bug in this code? https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1943#1943
2020-07-06T08:54:27Z phoe: when copypasted to a REPL, it works fine in terminal but hangs in SLIME
2020-07-06T08:55:07Z phoe: vms14: also qw{} will not work
2020-07-06T08:55:25Z phoe: QW will get interpreted as a symbol
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2020-07-06T08:56:31Z vms14: atm is just {}
2020-07-06T08:56:37Z phoe: OK, that will work
2020-07-06T08:56:41Z vms14: but i have to learn how reader macros work
2020-07-06T08:56:51Z phoe: vms14: https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402
2020-07-06T08:57:06Z pve: phoe: are you sure the arguments to qw-reader should be like that? Wasn't it (stream character number)?
2020-07-06T08:57:35Z phoe: pve: oh right
2020-07-06T08:57:43Z Harag: when using flatten in a macro it returns stuff like ,G!RESULT as sb-impl:comma and should I be seening that or getting G!RESULT as a a symbol?
2020-07-06T08:57:54Z phoe: Harag: see the errata for LoL
2020-07-06T08:58:04Z Harag: ok thanx
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2020-07-06T08:58:50Z phoe: pve: you fixed it! thank you
2020-07-06T08:58:55Z pve: great
2020-07-06T08:59:18Z phoe: vms14: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1943#1943
2020-07-06T08:59:43Z vms14: xD I was looking that, you made it for me
2020-07-06T08:59:44Z vms14: <3
2020-07-06T09:00:26Z phoe: just an exercise to ensure that I know how to write dispatch reader macros (hint: I obviously don't fully know, as you can see above)
2020-07-06T09:00:43Z phoe: feel free to read it and then try to write it yourself based on the article I posted - it's a good one
2020-07-06T09:00:57Z vms14: thanks man
2020-07-06T09:01:00Z phoe: pve: thanks for the assist
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2020-07-06T09:01:18Z pve: np
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2020-07-06T09:22:55Z vms14: phoe https://termbin.com/bf4l
2020-07-06T09:22:58Z vms14: that's my version
2020-07-06T09:23:03Z vms14: it adds a function
2020-07-06T09:23:14Z vms14: {function string1 string2 string3...}
2020-07-06T09:23:41Z vms14: thanks phoe, I wouldn't make it if you weren't helping me
2020-07-06T09:24:32Z phoe: you don't want that last line
2020-07-06T09:24:47Z vms14: it gives me error then
2020-07-06T09:24:51Z phoe: first of all, it's an argument count mismatch, since the function must accept two arguments
2020-07-06T09:25:06Z phoe: second, it should signal an error, since a lone closing delimiter is a programmer error
2020-07-06T09:25:20Z vms14: but it fails if I put {something more}
2020-07-06T09:25:30Z vms14: only works if there is a space at the end
2020-07-06T09:25:35Z vms14: like {something more }
2020-07-06T09:25:43Z phoe: shouldn't
2020-07-06T09:25:45Z vms14: if I put the last line, it works
2020-07-06T09:25:52Z beach: Set the syntax of } to be that of )
2020-07-06T09:25:59Z phoe: yes, but not because of the reason you are thinking
2020-07-06T09:26:04Z phoe: SET-MACRO-CHARACTER will cause #\} to be a terminating macro character
2020-07-06T09:26:23Z phoe: where "terminating" means that the reader will not include it as a part of tokens
2020-07-06T09:26:42Z phoe: so (set-macro-character #\} (lambda (c s) (declare (ignore c s)) (error "Lone closing delimiter))) or what beach said
2020-07-06T09:27:04Z phoe: ...more or less, I'm missing a closing doublequote
2020-07-06T09:27:17Z vms14: then something is wrong I guess
2020-07-06T09:27:32Z vms14: cause I had this error when I don't put a space at the end
2020-07-06T09:27:51Z vms14: I'll restart slime and see what it does now
2020-07-06T09:28:01Z vms14: maybe it was a mistake that I've done before
2020-07-06T09:28:13Z phoe: you most likely got that because #\} was not a terminating macro character
2020-07-06T09:28:23Z phoe: that's why it's important to set it to be a terminating macro character
2020-07-06T09:30:00Z beach: phoe: Are you sure your technique is portable?
2020-07-06T09:30:33Z phoe: beach: what do you mean?
2020-07-06T09:30:33Z beach: As I recall, in Eclector, we actually have a valid action associated with #\).
2020-07-06T09:31:03Z beach: So (again, as I recall), READ-DELIMITED-LIST doesn't actually consume the #\).
2020-07-06T09:31:14Z phoe: it does
2020-07-06T09:31:20Z phoe: "If it is char, then the character is consumed and the list of objects is returned."
2020-07-06T09:31:27Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_del.htm
2020-07-06T09:31:52Z beach: Ah, I see.  Thanks.
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2020-07-06T09:32:32Z phoe: if I understand the reader algorithm correctly, parsing the delimiter is actually the duty of the reading function
2020-07-06T09:32:49Z phoe: that's why the delimiter alone is allowed to just error if it's encountered
2020-07-06T09:32:56Z beach: Maybe so.  It has been a long time since I worked on the reader.
2020-07-06T09:32:58Z phoe: and R-D-L behaves just like that
2020-07-06T09:33:19Z beach: phoe: You know a lot of Common Lisp now!  Congratulations!
2020-07-06T09:33:49Z beach: That's why I would like you to work on SICL. :)
2020-07-06T09:35:33Z vms14: the sad part is now that it works, it won't serve for my original purpose xD
2020-07-06T09:35:58Z phoe: vms14: what was the original purpose
2020-07-06T09:36:08Z vms14: I have a function named modules that takes a list of arguments and makes perl load those modules
2020-07-06T09:36:18Z vms14: the sad part is modules in perl are in This::Form
2020-07-06T09:36:31Z vms14: and that makes lisp think I want to refer to a package xd
2020-07-06T09:36:42Z vms14: so I need to put "" anyways
2020-07-06T09:36:50Z phoe: nah
2020-07-06T09:36:53Z vms14: but it was nice to make a reader macro and understand them a bit better
2020-07-06T09:36:54Z phoe: modify your reader macro some more
2020-07-06T09:37:05Z beach: Or use Eclector.
2020-07-06T09:37:08Z phoe: ^
2020-07-06T09:37:17Z beach: It lets you configure the interpretation of tokens.
2020-07-06T09:37:41Z jackdaniel: or use esrap if it is only about parsing code
2020-07-06T09:37:54Z beach: It is high time to stamp out implementation-specific readers anyway.
2020-07-06T09:37:59Z vms14: then I have to change the read-delimited-list and read it manually?
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2020-07-06T09:38:41Z jackdaniel: https://scymtym.github.io/esrap/
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2020-07-06T09:39:54Z phoe: vms14: yes
2020-07-06T09:39:59Z phoe: mostly because READ will attempt to read symbols
2020-07-06T09:40:04Z phoe: and that will badly break
2020-07-06T09:41:01Z phoe: inside a loop with WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING, read-chars until you read whitespace
2020-07-06T09:41:08Z phoe: collect the list of strings until you hit #\}
2020-07-06T09:41:13Z phoe: at which point, return it
2020-07-06T09:41:30Z phoe: it's literally a function that works on a Lisp stream and pops chars from it
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2020-07-06T09:55:43Z vms14: I'll try later
2020-07-06T09:55:50Z vms14: see you guys, and thanks for the help
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2020-07-06T10:30:26Z fbmnds: I was advised to repeat my 'post' from Saturday on a working day
2020-07-06T10:30:34Z fbmnds: hence: I'd like to know whether there is interest in this community to dig into EQL5 in essence to be able to further maintain this project. From what I understood going through the code base, EQL5 is based on witty design ideas and allows for cross platform GUI development (the examples apps work nice on my Android mobile, too - iOS is also
2020-07-06T10:30:35Z fbmnds: supported).
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2020-07-06T10:36:33Z phoe: fbmnds: I'd certainly be interested if it becomes cross-implementation in result
2020-07-06T10:36:34Z flip214_: minion: memo for vms14: If you have your own reader macro, you could also make #\: a constituent character within this list... then you could (READ-DELIMITED-LIST) in your own *PACKAGE* and get symbols like |This::Form|
2020-07-06T10:36:34Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell vms14 when he/she/it next speaks.
2020-07-06T10:37:02Z phoe: flip214_: is that portable?
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2020-07-06T10:37:43Z flip214_: phoe: I guess that within your own readtable a COPY-SYNTAX from #\x to #\: should be conforming?!
2020-07-06T10:37:49Z phoe: ;; Online Lisp Meeting #4 starting in 22 minutes at https://www.twitch.tv/TwitchPlaysCommonLisp ;;
2020-07-06T10:38:14Z phoe: flip214_: the issue is that #\: has a NIL character macro function on my machine
2020-07-06T10:38:45Z phoe: I don't know if it's possible to portably tell Lisp to not treat a character as a package marker
2020-07-06T10:39:47Z beach: Yes, the #\: is not a macro character.
2020-07-06T10:39:47Z fbmnds: phoe: what would be a use case of what you are interested in?
2020-07-06T10:40:30Z phoe: fbmnds: developing Qt5 applications on SBCL/CCL for Windows/Linux/macOS
2020-07-06T10:40:52Z phoe: so something that is currently solved by commonqt/qtools, except they are qt4
2020-07-06T10:42:04Z fbmnds: phoe: afaik, I do not think that this will work with EQL5 - a switched from SBCL to ECL because of that
2020-07-06T10:42:51Z phoe: I'll stay with qtools then
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2020-07-06T10:45:37Z fbmnds: phoe: I see - did not know this
2020-07-06T10:51:58Z phoe: jackdaniel: technical nitpick: is EQL5 allowed to be MIT? It seems to include minor modified snippets from ECL sources, see https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5-Android/-/blob/master/utils/EQL5-symbols.lisp#L20102 (warning: huge file)
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2020-07-06T10:53:04Z phoe: that's a more general question I guess - if a package patches some other code by including and evaluating modified snippets of its source, does the copyleft virality also apply?
2020-07-06T10:53:15Z phoe: boy, things are interesting in the Lisp world
2020-07-06T10:54:57Z rgherdt: phoe: I would say yes, that doesn't seem to be different than other languages
2020-07-06T10:56:14Z beach: Another thing that other languages apparently have been stealing from us.
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2020-07-06T10:59:29Z phoe: ;; Online Lisp Meeting #4 starting now. https://www.twitch.tv/TwitchPlaysCommonLisp
2020-07-06T11:02:45Z dim: beach: Imitation is the Sincerest Form of Flattery, they say, right?
2020-07-06T11:03:17Z beach: Absolutely.
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2020-07-06T11:31:42Z flip214_: phoe: https://gist.github.com/phmarek/5efca753394112c40a32905fd30c8ef9
2020-07-06T11:33:35Z jackdaniel: phoe: it does not bother me, but if it did then I'm sure it could ve resoved by upstreaming necessary changes
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2020-07-06T11:34:09Z phoe: flip214_: a§toni§hing
2020-07-06T11:34:13Z flip214_: beach: they didn't steal, we still have it
2020-07-06T11:34:13Z phoe: jackdaniel: OK
2020-07-06T11:34:41Z jackdaniel: technically speaking I think that your concern has merit and I'm sure PR would be cooperative if it becomes a problem
2020-07-06T11:34:48Z flip214_: phoe: well, you can just use 🖈 as well
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2020-07-06T12:07:44Z phoe: ooookay then
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2020-07-06T12:18:24Z flip214_: to "pin" the letters to their cases ;)
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2020-07-06T12:58:51Z shka_: is sbcl boxing double-floats in simple-vector?
2020-07-06T12:59:36Z phoe: shka_: AFAIK yes
2020-07-06T13:00:31Z phoe: since a double is 64 bits, it can't really stay unboxed if tagging bits are needed
2020-07-06T13:02:24Z shka_: phoe: well, mandate requests minimum of 50 bits
2020-07-06T13:02:35Z shka_: *standard mandates
2020-07-06T13:02:44Z shka_: that's why i am asking
2020-07-06T13:03:16Z phoe: "The IEEE 754 standard specifies a binary64 as having 1+11+52 bits"
2020-07-06T13:03:27Z phoe: I assume that this is the double float we are talking about
2020-07-06T13:04:23Z shka_: i wask asking about CL:DOUBLE-FLOAT which must have a least 50 bits of precision and 8 bits for exponent
2020-07-06T13:04:38Z phoe: oh! you meant the CL standard, not the IEEE one :D
2020-07-06T13:04:51Z shka_: yes
2020-07-06T13:05:18Z phoe: I assume that SBCL implements floats as IEEE 754 doubles though, which means they take a full 64-bit word
2020-07-06T13:05:19Z shka_: but i think that sbcl uses all 64 bits regardless
2020-07-06T13:05:51Z shka_: ok, i suspected that this is the case
2020-07-06T13:06:19Z shka_: because of notes sbcl produces
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2020-07-06T13:09:37Z jackdaniel: and that's why single-floats may be much faster on CL, because they may be implemented as immediate objects with a type tag
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2020-07-06T13:19:44Z phoe: 32 bits of data leaves plenty of space for tagging information on 64-bit implementations, whereas with fullword data like doubles the compiler and programmer need to exercise and cooperate a lot to prevent boxing
2020-07-06T13:20:02Z phoe: ...or with single floats on 32-bit implementations
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2020-07-06T13:38:50Z p_l: I wonder if it would be possible (or sensible at all) to somehow pack pointers into NaNs on a CL implementation
2020-07-06T13:41:28Z phoe: p_l: hmmm, you'd get 53 bits of address space that way
2020-07-06T13:41:31Z phoe: 54 if you count the sign bit
2020-07-06T13:41:46Z phoe: uh, I mean 52/53
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2020-07-06T13:42:35Z p_l: phoe: more interested in how effective one can use them as pointers, unboxed
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2020-07-06T14:09:27Z ggole: NaN-boxing is probably better for languages with double-only numbers
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2020-07-06T14:47:58Z jmercouris: is there something like collect-if in a loop macro?
2020-07-06T14:48:12Z beach: when ... collect ...
2020-07-06T14:48:13Z phoe: jmercouris: (loop ... when x collect y ...)
2020-07-06T14:48:21Z jmercouris: ah, yes
2020-07-06T14:48:22Z jmercouris: thank you
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2020-07-06T15:16:13Z korner: so i had been bit confused, i was told to test lisp code i should use sbcl but i cannot quite find how to actually use it
2020-07-06T15:16:32Z phoe: korner: `sudo apt install sbcl && sbcl`?
2020-07-06T15:16:50Z phoe: that's the installation and running part that should get you all the way to the SBCL prompt
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2020-07-06T15:17:11Z korner: i have sbcl but i couldnt quite figure out how to "run" .lisp file
2020-07-06T15:17:39Z phoe: sbcl --load foo.lisp
2020-07-06T15:17:59Z phoe: and/or sbcl --script foo.lisp
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2020-07-06T15:18:31Z korner: thanks that works
2020-07-06T15:18:36Z phoe: the former will AFAIK load it and stay alive, the latter will load the file and exit
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2020-07-06T15:18:45Z beach: korner: You don't typically use Common Lisp the way you use (say) C.  It is more common to start a REPL (Read-Eval-Print-Loop) and work from inside the system.
2020-07-06T15:19:08Z korner: i never touched C before
2020-07-06T15:19:17Z beach: Well, any batch language.
2020-07-06T15:19:35Z beach: korner: If you plan to develop in Common Lisp the way you do in a typical batch language, you probably won't see the point.
2020-07-06T15:19:45Z phoe: maybe another question
2020-07-06T15:19:48Z phoe: korner: what's your use case?
2020-07-06T15:19:51Z korner: not sure what batch language is but i was just curious bout lisp thats all
2020-07-06T15:20:06Z korner: not work, not student, just simply curiosity cause the syntax seems pretty nice
2020-07-06T15:20:26Z phoe: oh
2020-07-06T15:20:30Z beach: korner: By a batch language, I mean one that takes a source file, turn it into an executable, which you then start from your shell prompt.
2020-07-06T15:20:43Z korner: ah i see
2020-07-06T15:21:02Z korner: yeah i tried rust and haskell, that was some black magick
2020-07-06T15:21:12Z phoe: Lisp is another kind of black magic
2020-07-06T15:21:30Z phoe: you program in Rust and Haskell by writing code that the compiler then turns into executables
2020-07-06T15:21:38Z korner: yes
2020-07-06T15:21:51Z phoe: but you program in Lisp by starting a Lisp image and then modifying it until it contains the program that you want
2020-07-06T15:21:57Z korner: i noticed though that lisp syntax is lil bit simmiliar to the way i format lua so thats fun
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2020-07-06T15:22:09Z phoe: it's a different creative process
2020-07-06T15:22:19Z korner: but i think i get the idea
2020-07-06T15:22:22Z phoe: mostly because Lisp stays alive throughout the whole programming experience
2020-07-06T15:23:39Z beach: korner: I think there are some YouTube videos that will give you the idea about how we work.
2020-07-06T15:23:42Z korner: was quite confused what i am even supposed to learn cause there is some common lisp, racket and million other lisps, thought common lisp would be nice starting point
2020-07-06T15:23:56Z korner: was told that common-lisp is useless but that sounds unlikely
2020-07-06T15:24:01Z phoe: korner: #lisp is a Common Lisp place, so obviously we'll suggest Common Lisp to you
2020-07-06T15:24:19Z phoe: it's a general-purpose programming language that I personally use for all personal projects I make
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2020-07-06T15:24:36Z phoe: I really enjoy its interactivity and really short feedback loops.
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2020-07-06T15:37:17Z contrapunctus: I was wondering today...could I use CL to make a MIDI sequencer? 🤔 It seems to be the exclusive domain of C/C++
2020-07-06T15:37:33Z beach: Of course you can.
2020-07-06T15:38:03Z contrapunctus: And GC won't pose an issue? o.o
2020-07-06T15:38:21Z beach: That would depend on the Common Lisp implementation.
2020-07-06T15:38:46Z beach: It would also depend on how low-level you want things to be in your application.
2020-07-06T15:39:11Z beach: Like, do you want to generate the sound yourself from oscillators and/or sample files?
2020-07-06T15:39:21Z contrapunctus: The latter, at least
2020-07-06T15:40:20Z beach: Also, it will depend on how "real-time" you need for it to be.  If you fill the sound buffers enough, a GC won't ruin it.
2020-07-06T15:40:37Z beach: But it is probably best to avoid too much allocation during the "rendering" phase.
2020-07-06T15:41:49Z beach: The thing is, most current FLOSS Common Lisp implementations have a GC that is not very good for real-time.
2020-07-06T15:42:49Z contrapunctus: oh ._.
2020-07-06T15:43:23Z beach: I think you can avoid allocation entirely during rendering.
2020-07-06T15:43:37Z beach: After all, it is just arithmetic.
2020-07-06T15:45:16Z beach: Or, you can run some test code to see how long a GC typically takes.
2020-07-06T15:50:32Z phoe: another possibility is linking against FFI sound generators that don't suffer from GC issues - e.g. cl-collider for SuperCollider
2020-07-06T15:50:53Z phoe: that's mostly because we don't have soft-real-time GCs in free Common Lisp implementations
2020-07-06T15:51:01Z phoe: otherwise one could just write one in CL
2020-07-06T15:51:23Z beach: But we are working on such an implementation.
2020-07-06T15:51:27Z phoe: ^
2020-07-06T15:51:41Z phoe: I do want to see a soft-real-time GC in action in Common Lisp
2020-07-06T15:52:09Z beach: So I say, write the thing in Common Lisp entirely.  See how it works out.  Maybe tweak the parameters for current Common Lisp implementations.
2020-07-06T15:52:23Z beach: Then, once we have a good GC, use it.
2020-07-06T15:52:29Z phoe: hah, optimizing for the optimistic future
2020-07-06T15:52:32Z phoe: I can't blame you :D
2020-07-06T15:52:58Z beach: My experience is that it takes some time to write significant applications, and then the context has evolved.
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2020-07-06T16:01:06Z shangul: Finally, I translated "How to make Lisp go faster than C" to my native language.
2020-07-06T16:01:14Z rgherdt: beach: which implementation do you mean? (that's working on real-time GC)
2020-07-06T16:01:37Z beach: minion: Please tell rgherdt about SICL.
2020-07-06T16:01:37Z minion: rgherdt: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2020-07-06T16:02:22Z beach: Oh, and we are well on the say, so I don't think it is futile. :)
2020-07-06T16:03:08Z phoe: it already had multiple nice effects on the ecosystem even though it's incomplete, so definitely not futile
2020-07-06T16:03:21Z beach: Fair enough.
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2020-07-06T16:03:50Z phoe: Eclector and Cleavir are the two most notable ones that I can think of
2020-07-06T16:04:07Z phoe: might be even more that I haven't yet become aware of
2020-07-06T16:04:11Z beach: Trucler too, but less spectacular.
2020-07-06T16:04:29Z beach: Compile-time lexical environments.
2020-07-06T16:04:43Z phoe reads up on trucler
2020-07-06T16:05:12Z beach: It is basically a CLOS-y version of the environment stuff from CLtL2.
2020-07-06T16:05:16Z rgherdt: beach: thanks, will read about it
2020-07-06T16:05:17Z beach: Also much more complete.
2020-07-06T16:05:43Z beach: rgherdt: There is a specification.  Hold on, I'll give you a link to a PDF.
2020-07-06T16:06:06Z beach: rgherdt: http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-specification.pdf I think.
2020-07-06T16:06:32Z beach: Yeah, that's it.
2020-07-06T16:08:19Z rgherdt: thx
2020-07-06T16:08:25Z beach: ywlcm
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2020-07-06T16:33:55Z matzy_: should i be overly concerned if i created a db table in mito using it's classes and i see the table in my sql editor, but the (mito:ensure-table-exists 'mytable) returns NIL?
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2020-07-06T16:54:34Z mfiano: M-. and you'll see it returns the result of MAPC
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2020-07-06T17:45:17Z alandipert: is anyone aware of a pedagogical impl. of multiple values in the spirit of http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html? e.g. implemented in terms of other operators
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2020-07-06T17:46:44Z alandipert: uhoh, that link is down. archived: https://web.archive.org/web/20191023160058/http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html
2020-07-06T17:47:17Z Bike: not that i know of. let me see if i can write one real quick
2020-07-06T17:47:17Z alandipert: oh jeez, disregard, it's there at the bottom :-)
2020-07-06T17:47:25Z Bike: oh, is it?
2020-07-06T17:47:37Z Bike: ah, yeah.
2020-07-06T17:48:03Z alandipert: yeah i gave it a go myself and looks like i arrived at something not far off from his
2020-07-06T17:48:07Z alandipert: phew
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2020-07-06T17:49:37Z Bike: this is kind of confusing to follow.
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2020-07-06T17:50:48Z Bike: but yeah having a thread local global vector is basically it
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2020-07-06T18:18:18Z matzy_: what's the point of setting an accessor that's different that the slot name?
2020-07-06T18:18:35Z phoe: matzy_: you don't export slot names this way
2020-07-06T18:18:49Z phoe: (defclass foo ((%bar :accessor bar))) <- I only export FOO and BAR
2020-07-06T18:19:07Z phoe: this prevents people from using SLOT-VALUE and forces them to uses the accessor functions, which may implement additional logic.
2020-07-06T18:19:36Z phoe: where "prevents" means "unless they want to type the unholy trio of characters, «::%»"
2020-07-06T18:19:59Z matzy_: so you can make your :accessor a function?
2020-07-06T18:20:08Z phoe: what do you mean, make it a function?
2020-07-06T18:20:19Z phoe: :accessor defines a pair of functions, #'BAR and #'(SETF BAR)
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2020-07-06T18:20:43Z matzy_: right, but you mentioned additional logic implemented by the accessor
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2020-07-06T18:21:30Z matzy_: oh, you mean when you set the accessor you can implement additional logic
2020-07-06T18:21:45Z phoe: (defmethod bar :around (object) ...)
2020-07-06T18:21:48Z phoe: (defmethod bar :after (object) ...)
2020-07-06T18:21:51Z phoe: (defmethod bar :before (object) ...)
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2020-07-06T18:22:11Z phoe: then also the variants of the above that specialize on OBJECT in various ways
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2020-07-06T18:23:08Z matzy_: ok, that helps. thanks a lot
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2020-07-06T18:23:24Z matzy_: so best practice is to always give your accessors a different name
2020-07-06T18:23:45Z matzy_: or a similar but slightly different name
2020-07-06T18:24:01Z phoe: the common thing is to name slots %foo and accessors foo
2020-07-06T18:24:15Z phoe: where "%" means "internal"
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2020-07-06T18:30:22Z _death: I don't think it's particularly common..
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2020-07-06T18:34:41Z phoe: s/the common thing/the naming scheme I personally use/
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2020-07-06T18:36:05Z Bike: beach does it too, so that makes it basically a standard,
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2020-07-06T18:36:29Z phoe: you mean a new standard, newer than ANSI CL?
2020-07-06T18:36:36Z phoe: oh boy here comes that discussion again~
2020-07-06T18:37:27Z _death: personally I dislike adorning symbols with strange characters beyond the earmuff convention
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2020-07-06T18:41:05Z phoe: how do you solve the export-the-accessor-not-the-slot-name problem then?
2020-07-06T18:41:06Z _death: btw thanks phoe and beach for today's online meeting.. I got into it a bit late and didn't bother logging in
2020-07-06T18:41:14Z phoe: _death: the video is online
2020-07-06T18:41:20Z phoe: both on Twitch (still) and on YouTube
2020-07-06T18:41:26Z _death: phoe: in my experience it's a nonissue
2020-07-06T18:41:33Z phoe: _death: that's a valid answer too
2020-07-06T18:41:41Z phoe: but anyway if you'd like to talk about anything for the next meeting, feel free to let me know
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2020-07-06T18:42:40Z phoe: and by "you" I mean "hey #lisp come on the slot's free let's keep the meetings rolling and such"
2020-07-06T18:42:52Z _death: also, I sometimes (often?) use the convention of giving a protocol-specific prefix to the access functions
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2020-07-06T18:54:27Z pve: Sometimes, I dream of a library that aggregates all the common defclass usage patterns into a set of convenience macros that I could choose from, depending on my mood.
2020-07-06T18:55:58Z pve: Or one that provides a define-class-construction-kit, to which you can say "Hey, gimme a define-class macro with so-and-so slot and accessor naming scheme that maybe exports the class and its accessors by default, so my fingers don't bleed everytime I want to define a class".
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2020-07-06T20:10:51Z ym: Is a task of implementing arrays with signed (possible negative, in similar way C pointers allows it) index out of standard? Maybe someone knows an example?
2020-07-06T20:11:09Z phoe: not in portable CL
2020-07-06T20:11:22Z phoe: array indices are from 0 upwards
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2020-07-06T20:11:33Z phoe: why though?
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2020-07-06T20:13:23Z ym: Why? I have a sine LUT and it would be nice to have positive values for 0 to pi and negative for 0 to -pi.
2020-07-06T20:14:10Z Bike: you can just have a function that accesses the lut and takes a possibly negative index as argument, and then it gets the actual index with a subtraction.
2020-07-06T20:14:26Z ym: Yes, but it costs.
2020-07-06T20:14:37Z phoe: use (mod n 2pi)
2020-07-06T20:14:41Z ym: I do.
2020-07-06T20:15:00Z Bike: barely anything. also, you could just have a table from 0 to pi and negate it, couldn't you?
2020-07-06T20:15:02Z phoe: don't know if it can be done any better in portable CL then
2020-07-06T20:15:31Z _death: a lookup table is suspicious in the first place
2020-07-06T20:16:28Z Bike: a C array is just a bunch of objects that are contiguous in storage. a lisp array is an actual structure. so lisp arrays don't work like C arrays.
2020-07-06T20:17:32Z ym: Bike, I can, but I also has a compound type that will fit very well with described LUT access method. But thanks anyway.
2020-07-06T20:17:59Z ym: _death, why?
2020-07-06T20:19:05Z _death: because nowadays on much hardware sine computation would be much faster than a memory access
2020-07-06T20:19:53Z ym: How do you write lisp code with modern hardware?
2020-07-06T20:20:23Z _death: for start, you have a SIN function
2020-07-06T20:20:55Z ym: I have or LISP does?
2020-07-06T20:21:14Z _death: clhs sin
2020-07-06T20:21:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sin_c.htm
2020-07-06T20:22:00Z ym: So how do I make it run on modern hardware to achieve sine values faster than from LUT?
2020-07-06T20:22:22Z _death: by calling it
2020-07-06T20:22:45Z _death: I guess there's some miscommunication going on?
2020-07-06T20:23:11Z ym: Seems like it.
2020-07-06T20:24:08Z ym: Maybe I have not modern enough hardware, but for me sin always slower than aref from array.
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2020-07-06T20:29:37Z _death: maybe something weird is going on, because modern hardware has fast instructions for computing it
2020-07-06T20:30:41Z _death: (in fact, not so modern hardware had them.. like 80287?
2020-07-06T20:31:53Z ym: CPU instructions for trigonometric function? Give me a hint how to google it.
2020-07-06T20:32:09Z phoe: https://mudongliang.github.io/x86/html/file_module_x86_id_114.html
2020-07-06T20:33:08Z _death: I think nowadays some SSE analogue is used
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2020-07-06T20:35:56Z _death: looking at sbcl code it does seem weird that it has #-x86 (def-math-rtn "sin" 1) which supposedly calls the C function
2020-07-06T20:38:03Z ym: Intel Haswell fsin: 47-106c latency. 71-100 uops.
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2020-07-06T20:42:49Z ym: fsin always takes hundreds cycles. Maybe if you implement your own sine on modern Intel's CPU+FPGA chips, that would be same as accessing precalculated value.
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2020-07-06T20:58:34Z elderK: Hey all, I was wondering if anyone had any experience with ASDF package-inferred-systems. If so, how did you feel about them? Did you find they made it easier to manage larger projects? Any alternatives?
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2020-07-06T21:36:42Z pve: elderK: it's a matter of taste, if you're comfortable with juggling exports then it's fine
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2020-07-06T21:37:23Z pve: in my current project I do one package per directory/module
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2020-07-06T21:40:09Z Lycurgus: if it only came in 3.1.2 ... .
2020-07-06T21:41:11Z phoe: How can I define a LIST-OF type using SATISFIES that will only match lists whose all elements are of type TYPE? I want to use it like (typep x '(list-of number))
2020-07-06T21:42:04Z phoe: I assume that this should expand into (satisfies somepred) - but, given a single argument to the type expander, what should SOMEPRED be?
2020-07-06T21:42:20Z phoe: do I need to DEFUN inside the type expander to take care of that?
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2020-07-06T21:46:59Z ym: deftype has example in hyperspec. somepred would be a list you're checking.
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2020-07-06T21:47:26Z phoe: a list? what do you mean?
2020-07-06T21:47:53Z phoe: SOMEPRED must be a one-argument predicate if it's a part of SATISFIES
2020-07-06T21:48:06Z pve: I remember trying to do that a long time ago too, my conclusion (could be wrong) was that you needed to have some magic to ensure predicates exist for each concrete type you want to check
2020-07-06T21:48:10Z phoe: also, the example isn't really what I am looking for
2020-07-06T21:48:23Z elderK: pve: How do you handle the case where two modules require something from each other? Say, interfaces.
2020-07-06T21:48:29Z elderK: Just define an interfaces package?
2020-07-06T21:49:18Z elderK: I've been playing with Lisp for awhile now but I'm still new to using it in a practical sense :)
2020-07-06T21:49:20Z phoe: elderK: the easiest is to define a protocol/interface package and have the modules use it
2020-07-06T21:50:15Z ym: phoe, you first defun somepred so that it accept one argument, then you deftype with (satisfies somepred). Why don't you like the example?
2020-07-06T21:50:33Z pve: elderK: hmm I try to make sure the dependencies are one-way always
2020-07-06T21:50:51Z pve: if that's what you mean
2020-07-06T21:51:00Z elderK: phoe: Another question is, like, constructors. How do you handle the case of initializing stuff in a new object instance? Say, some members are initialized in a complex way, based on some parameters you set when you create the instance. Do you just have a function that encapsulates that all? Do you use shared-initialize? I'm not sure what the best way is to handle that.
2020-07-06T21:51:01Z Lycurgus forgot the geneology back to mk-defsystem. Also thereis a grovel extension.
2020-07-06T21:51:01Z phoe: ym: I cannot define a single type named LIST-OF that accepts a type as an argument. I must define LIST-OF-NUMBER, LIST-OF-INTEGER, LIST-OF-SYMBOL, ...
2020-07-06T21:51:15Z elderK: That is, creating an instance is more complex than just (make-instance 'thing ...)
2020-07-06T21:51:28Z phoe: elderK: wait a second, what do you mean, more complex
2020-07-06T21:51:49Z phoe: MAKE-INSTANCE is supposed to be the external interface, because you can arbitrarily complicate the process of instantiating
2020-07-06T21:52:07Z phoe: by defining methods on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE, REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE, SHARED-INITIALIZE, and/or the two update functions
2020-07-06T21:52:28Z phoe: in a purely CLOSsy perspective, you should never need any kind of wrapper over MAKE-INSTANCE
2020-07-06T21:52:56Z elderK: phoe: Okay, so methods on those generics are roughly equivalent to constructors in other languages?
2020-07-06T21:53:03Z phoe: elderK: yes, that's the idea.
2020-07-06T21:53:10Z elderK: phoe: Thank you :)
2020-07-06T21:53:28Z phoe: INITIALIZE-INSTANCE: for new instances. REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE: for old instances that you need to "reinitialize", whatever it means for you.
2020-07-06T21:53:36Z phoe: Update methods: when the class was modified or you change the instance's class.
2020-07-06T21:53:46Z elderK: How often should we be concerned with reinitialize-instance and such? I rarely see them defined.
2020-07-06T21:53:48Z phoe: SHARED-INITIALIZE: for code that is supposed to execute in all of the above cases.
2020-07-06T21:54:01Z phoe: elderK: do you call REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE on your instances?
2020-07-06T21:54:54Z ym: phoe, maybe store list type in the end of the list?
2020-07-06T21:54:58Z phoe: if you don't have a use case for it and don't call it, then you can use the default behavior
2020-07-06T21:55:30Z phoe: ym: sounds dirty.
2020-07-06T21:55:45Z phoe: then the list contains objects that aren't of the type I want
2020-07-06T21:56:29Z phoe: we could cons them onto the beginning of that list I guess, but then suddenly we get (typep (cons type list) '(satisfies list-of-x))
2020-07-06T21:56:40Z phoe: I'll go the SETF FDEFINITION way
2020-07-06T21:57:35Z ym: Don't list always has nil in the end?
2020-07-06T21:57:54Z phoe: consing onto the beginning is cheaper than consing at the end and doesn't require the list to be mutated
2020-07-06T21:58:20Z phoe: if I have a list (1 2 3), I don't want to traverse it and set its last CDR to some type so I get (1 2 3 . MY-AWESOME-TYPE)
2020-07-06T21:58:38Z phoe: since not only that destroys my list, it's also really really pointless
2020-07-06T22:00:22Z ym: Maybe check the type of first element of a list in somepred and compare it's type to other elements type.
2020-07-06T22:01:19Z elderK: phoe: If I have a class B and I want to create an instance of it in file A (but not use any of its methods), is it wise to have A depend on the file that defines B?
2020-07-06T22:01:20Z ym: It will only tell if list is filled with similar type elements though.
2020-07-06T22:01:34Z elderK: Or is it not necessary in CL? Since, make-instance just accepts a symbol for the class name?
2020-07-06T22:01:54Z phoe: elderK: it accepts a symbol just fine
2020-07-06T22:02:01Z elderK: I've been going on the hypothesis that the symbol naming the class is namespaced, and so I could import it.
2020-07-06T22:02:51Z elderK: Say, foo:my-class vs zug:my-class.
2020-07-06T22:03:32Z phoe: sure, as long as the symbol already exists
2020-07-06T22:03:37Z phoe: ...at read-time, I mean
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2020-07-06T22:06:37Z elderK: phoe: If initialize-instance takes care of initializing some slots, how do you ensure that another user instantiating your class, doesn't specify initializers for those slots directly?
2020-07-06T22:06:57Z Xach: don't make the initarg easy to use
2020-07-06T22:07:00Z elderK: If class A has slots s0 and s1, and s1 is initialized in initialize-instance, how do I prevent the user (make-instance 'A :s1 whatever)
2020-07-06T22:07:15Z Xach: use a "private" symbol as the initarg for s1, for example
2020-07-06T22:07:24Z Xach: or don't have an initarg for it at all
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2020-07-06T22:07:41Z Xach: or document that they Mustn't
2020-07-06T22:07:49Z elderK: Thank you, Xach.
2020-07-06T22:08:08Z elderK: I've been using keyword symbols for initargs. I didn't think to use an ordinary symbol :)
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2020-07-06T22:08:42Z Xach: elderK: it is not very common in my experience
2020-07-06T22:08:51Z Xach: but, this is a situation that calls for them
2020-07-06T22:11:46Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1944#1944
2020-07-06T22:11:50Z phoe: aaaaaaah
2020-07-06T22:11:58Z phoe: ugly, but satisfying
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2020-07-06T22:14:17Z phoe: (typep '(1 2 3) '(phoe-toolbox:list-of cl:number)) ;=> T
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2020-07-06T22:17:40Z pve: phoe: neat, are you able to get compile-time warnings with that? (it's late, so I can't reason about that myself now)
2020-07-06T22:18:22Z phoe: what do you mean, compile-time warnings?
2020-07-06T22:18:28Z phoe: it's SATISFIES so I don't expect to get anything
2020-07-06T22:19:25Z pve: like if you declaim ftype myfunction to take a list-of cl:number
2020-07-06T22:19:43Z phoe: can SATISFIES go into DECLAIM FTYPE?...
2020-07-06T22:19:46Z phoe checks
2020-07-06T22:19:57Z pve: and then somewhere call it with list-of cl:string
2020-07-06T22:20:22Z phoe: don't think so
2020-07-06T22:20:31Z phoe: SATISFIES types are black boxes to Lisp compilers
2020-07-06T22:20:34Z pve: ok
2020-07-06T22:20:56Z pve: no parameterized type for us then :(
2020-07-06T22:21:22Z phoe: sorry, can't hack the CL type system like that.
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2020-07-06T22:22:34Z pve: yeah, I didn't think so
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2020-07-06T22:56:18Z ym: I made like this: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1945#1945
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2020-07-06T22:58:17Z ym: Also indention's broken.
2020-07-06T23:00:32Z phoe: ...woah!
2020-07-06T23:00:36Z phoe: that's actually genius!!!
2020-07-06T23:01:42Z phoe: I didn't think to combine CONS and SATISFIES like that
2020-07-06T23:01:56Z phoe: this is brilliant stuff
2020-07-06T23:13:23Z Bike: type-of might not be the best operator for this, it can return a lot of things.
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2020-07-06T23:14:54Z phoe: Bike: it will never return NIL though
2020-07-06T23:15:16Z phoe: so if we bend the rules and use its output as a boolean, then this code will magically work
2020-07-06T23:15:35Z phoe: I'll go to sleep now and will use the insight from ym to make a better version tomorrow morning
2020-07-06T23:16:14Z Bike: i mean, for example, you could have a (list-of cons) and then type-of would return a (cons x y) type depending on what's in the cons
2020-07-06T23:16:30Z phoe: oh right
2020-07-06T23:16:35Z phoe: yes, I see now
2020-07-06T23:16:45Z phoe: there's multiple type-of in there
2020-07-06T23:16:48Z Bike: or one you could actually run into, if you have (list-of simple-vector), but on sbcl (type-of #(1 2 3)) => (simple-vector 3)
2020-07-06T23:17:05Z phoe: I assume we can just use EVERY TYPEP on the CDR of that list though
2020-07-06T23:17:30Z Bike: i guess, but that doesn't help if type-of returns something unfavorable for the first element.
2020-07-06T23:18:28Z phoe: oh
2020-07-06T23:18:34Z phoe: that's correct, yes
2020-07-06T23:18:40Z phoe: for 1 it might return BIT
2020-07-06T23:18:56Z phoe: and therefore the thing will fail for e.g. '(1 2 3 4 5)
2020-07-06T23:19:20Z phoe: sigh
2020-07-06T23:20:00Z phoe: well at least we tried
2020-07-06T23:20:17Z phoe goes to sleep
2020-07-06T23:20:27Z Bike: yeah, sorry to be no fun
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2020-07-07T00:14:11Z drmeister: Does anyone know how to figure out what directory asdf is using for its cache?
2020-07-07T00:18:10Z Bike: maybe you can call apply-output-translations with whatever source pathname?
2020-07-07T00:27:09Z drmeister: Yes - that worked.
2020-07-07T00:27:25Z drmeister: As in...
2020-07-07T00:27:27Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/tUnu5b6W/
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2020-07-07T03:09:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-07-07T05:04:19Z vegai: morning
2020-07-07T05:04:20Z vegai: !
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2020-07-07T05:14:01Z beach: Hello vegai.
2020-07-07T05:15:14Z beach: vegai: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2020-07-07T05:17:42Z vegai: somewhat yes, I've lurked before as well
2020-07-07T05:18:04Z beach: I see.  Welcome!  What brings you to #lisp?
2020-07-07T05:19:46Z vegai: the search for the perfect programming language, of course :P
2020-07-07T05:20:04Z beach: Look no further! :)
2020-07-07T05:20:09Z vegai: or the neverending quest, perhaps
2020-07-07T05:21:56Z aeth: Well, you can always write your own. The closer your syntax is to CL's, the easier it is to write it in CL.
2020-07-07T05:22:16Z aeth: If it's almost entirely compatible, you can just use macros.
2020-07-07T05:25:57Z beach: vegai: So is the plan to learn enough Common Lisp to tell whether you can stop searching?
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2020-07-07T05:29:23Z vegai: beach: yes, roughly so
2020-07-07T05:29:35Z beach: Sounds good.
2020-07-07T05:32:46Z aeth: vegai: what features are you looking for?
2020-07-07T05:33:10Z aeth: People have done everything from webdev to gamedev so there's quite the range of projects
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2020-07-07T06:01:26Z vegai: well, my checklist reads like it was made for cl
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2020-07-07T06:02:07Z vegai: strong repl/dynamic programming; static types (optional or not); performance; stability; non-ambiguous syntax; standard with more than 1 implementation
2020-07-07T06:02:27Z beach: Perfect!
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2020-07-07T06:03:35Z vegai: I don't actually know if cl has non-ambiguous syntax
2020-07-07T06:04:19Z beach: That depends on what you mean by that term.
2020-07-07T06:04:39Z vegai: it's a simple wish: I just want a deterministic formatter for my code
2020-07-07T06:04:52Z beach: But I think it is non-ambiguous.
2020-07-07T06:04:54Z vegai: I program a lot of python, where that's a bit of a problem
2020-07-07T06:05:07Z vegai: not a huge problem in practice actually, but still
2020-07-07T06:05:25Z beach: The surface syntax is trivial, but can become more complicated with reader macros.
2020-07-07T06:05:46Z beach: Then there is a second-level syntax on S-expressions in memory.
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2020-07-07T06:06:09Z beach: The second-level syntax is defined by the special operators.
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2020-07-07T06:16:49Z seok: Hi guys!
2020-07-07T06:16:56Z beach: Hello seok.
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2020-07-07T06:17:02Z seok: Hi professor
2020-07-07T06:17:49Z seok: this isn't lisp related, but how would I scan my local ports to see which ports are being used by applications?
2020-07-07T06:19:53Z flip214_: seok: "netstat -antp | grep LISTEN", or nmap
2020-07-07T06:20:18Z flip214_: seok: but if you use 0 as port number, the kernel will allocate an available one for you
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2020-07-07T06:20:43Z beach: vegai: The Common Lisp language exposes the structure of the internal representation of code.  In most languages, that structure would be internal to the compiler, and different for each compiler.  As a consequence, the Common Lisp special operators (corresponding to fixed syntactic constructs in other languages, like loops, assignments, conditionals, etc.) is defined in terms of what goes where in the list that represent the
2020-07-07T06:20:44Z beach: S-expression.
2020-07-07T06:21:42Z seok: hm
2020-07-07T06:21:51Z seok: netstat -antp doesn't show anything for me
2020-07-07T06:21:59Z seok: I'm pretty sure I have some databases running
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2020-07-07T06:26:18Z flip214: seok: what OS are you on?
2020-07-07T06:26:48Z flip214: windows doesn't like -p, it's "netstat -anto" there IIRC
2020-07-07T06:27:06Z flip214: don't know about the *BSDs or MacOS
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2020-07-07T06:51:44Z praiseallah88: sun is not doing Allah is doing to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
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2020-07-07T07:26:51Z Harag: am I right in assuming that when *print-readably* = t that the object written is not necessarily readble by a different "implementation"
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2020-07-07T07:38:23Z phoe: yes
2020-07-07T07:38:50Z phoe: it is supposed to be readable back by the same version of the same implementation
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2020-07-07T07:59:04Z Harag: thanx phoe
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2020-07-07T08:04:13Z Harag: is it acceptable to add something to *features* for your own packages? It looks like it because I can see stuff like ALEXANDRIA::SEQUENCE-EMPTYP in there.
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2020-07-07T08:08:19Z phoe: Harag: yes
2020-07-07T08:08:34Z phoe: then you do stuff like #+foo::bar
2020-07-07T08:09:32Z phoe: normally *FEATURES* are full of keywords, but there's only this many keywords available; this, and you might want to not export that feature symbol for whatever reason
2020-07-07T08:10:42Z Harag: got it
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2020-07-07T09:27:27Z clintm: If I have two structs both with a slot of the same name, and I call the slot accessor function from one on an instance of the other, that's supposed to be a type error, right?  If so, does allegro really just return nil?
2020-07-07T09:28:31Z beach: Why would it be a type error?
2020-07-07T09:28:47Z clintm: I tested it in a bare alisp repl, but I'd like cofirmation before I plant a proverbial flag in the sand and say "this is bad and we shouldn't do it" at work.
2020-07-07T09:29:56Z flip214: clintm: for classes there's the generic function and methods framework. for structures the structure name is prepended for accessor names to avoid such conflicts.
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2020-07-07T09:32:57Z clintm: beach: because it's two different types, at least that's what I assumed.  (defstruct a id) (defstruct b id) (a-id (make-b)) -> nil.  Should that really be nil?  On LW it's a type error.
2020-07-07T09:33:02Z beach: Oh, type error because you are giving it a struct of a different type.  Got it.
2020-07-07T09:33:09Z clintm: I mean, I assumed it would be a type error.
2020-07-07T09:33:22Z beach: It might just be undefined behavior.
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2020-07-07T09:33:54Z lieven: is safety at the highest setting?
2020-07-07T09:34:01Z beach: Structs are designed to be fast.  It wouldn't surprise me if the accessor does nothing other than access an element with a particular index.
2020-07-07T09:34:10Z clintm: lieven: Oh, I didn't try that.
2020-07-07T09:36:48Z clintm: Same :(
2020-07-07T09:37:10Z beach: Structs are weird.  I strongly suggest you use standard classes instead.
2020-07-07T09:37:10Z clintm: At least with debug and safety 3
2020-07-07T09:37:57Z flip214: clintm: on SBCL I get   The value #S(B :ID NIL) is not of type COMMON-LISP-USER::A
2020-07-07T09:38:11Z lieven: an implementation is certainly allowed to carp but I don't think it's required
2020-07-07T09:38:22Z clintm: flip214: That's what I got with LW as well.
2020-07-07T09:39:08Z clintm: Hrm, maybe if I scour the allegro docs I can find a way to turn it on even if just during testing and development.  Thanks for the info, everyone!
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2020-07-07T10:00:30Z Harag: is there a "prefered" "portable" pretty printing library out there that deals with writing the likes of clos objects and hashtables as readable, even if it is just readable by itself
2020-07-07T10:01:39Z phoe: I have phoe-toolbox:print-hash-table-readably for hash tables
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2020-07-07T10:02:26Z phoe: and also possibly phoe-toolbox:print-instance-readably that tries to be DWIMmy in what it does
2020-07-07T10:02:37Z phoe: and therefore can miserably fail if one doesn't know what they're doing
2020-07-07T10:03:07Z phoe: see https://github.com/phoe/phoe-toolbox/blob/master/phoe-toolbox.lisp#L434
2020-07-07T10:03:48Z Harag: phoe: I have some as well was just wondering if I was reinventing the wheel again...
2020-07-07T10:05:05Z flip214: Harag: alexandria has (hash-table-alist) and -plist and the reverse functions... but you loose the :test that way.
2020-07-07T10:05:45Z edgar-rft: (print-readaby "btbtfdctgzthqmjbycftrwknrngmcjvbtnbwlkvf" :-)
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2020-07-07T10:15:45Z phoe: Harag: reinventing the wheel is common in places where the standard and Alexandria are lacking
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2020-07-07T10:30:24Z flip214: phoe: perhaps such wheels should be added to alexandria-2, then
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2020-07-07T10:40:26Z phoe: flip214: tempting
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2020-07-07T10:50:15Z flip214: phoe: can only save space if there are less duplicated implementations of common things
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2020-07-07T13:36:19Z phoe: flip214: I don't know what should A² be composed of; I could think a little bit on it and propose some ideas
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2020-07-07T13:40:59Z Xach: Would you please try to "curl https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp > /dev/null" and tell me if you get an error from curl?
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2020-07-07T13:42:46Z Bike: is that an open question? i didn't see any errors.
2020-07-07T13:42:58Z Xach: So open
2020-07-07T13:43:52Z Xach: Bike: do you mind telling me what OS you are using?
2020-07-07T13:44:02Z Bike: arch linux. i can try it on a mac too if you want.
2020-07-07T13:44:12Z Xach: Bike: if you don't mind, please do
2020-07-07T13:44:44Z Bike: (60) SSL certificate problem: certificate has expired
2020-07-07T13:44:57Z Xach: Thanks.
2020-07-07T13:45:34Z Bike: welcome
2020-07-07T13:45:50Z Xach: Different client SSL configurations produce different results. It's frustrating.
2020-07-07T13:46:46Z phoe: Bike: which mac version?
2020-07-07T13:47:04Z Xach: phoe: I get it on 10.15.5
2020-07-07T13:47:41Z phoe: that's surprisingly recent
2020-07-07T13:47:42Z phoe: hmmm
2020-07-07T13:47:54Z Bike: uh, 10.13 i think.
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2020-07-07T13:48:42Z Bike: and i think i got curl through homebrew?
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2020-07-07T13:50:46Z Xach: Hmm, I think I see what I might be able to do.
2020-07-07T13:51:50Z ArthurStrong: Hi all!
2020-07-07T13:52:16Z phoe: heyy ArthurStrong
2020-07-07T13:52:35Z vegai: glad to see the vscode plugins + lsp working pretty well already
2020-07-07T13:52:51Z vegai: I've used emacs for a long time so going back to that would be possible
2020-07-07T13:52:57Z vegai: I'd rather not though, if there was any options :)
2020-07-07T13:53:48Z phoe: vegai: could you give me some sort of screenshots? is the REPL and incremental compilation working?
2020-07-07T13:58:31Z vegai: REPL and incremental compilation are working, yes
2020-07-07T13:58:57Z Xach: Bike: could you please try again?
2020-07-07T13:59:14Z Bike: works this time. on both systems.
2020-07-07T14:00:11Z phoe: vegai: :O
2020-07-07T14:00:20Z phoe: do you have some sort of screenshots and/or videos?
2020-07-07T14:00:58Z Xach: Bike: thank you very much
2020-07-07T14:01:12Z Bike: no problem
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2020-07-07T14:01:27Z vegai: phoe: didn't this use to work? No, I don't readily have screenshots or videos
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2020-07-07T14:01:39Z Xach: I need to compress my systems.txt and releases.txt. They are by far the biggest traffic generators for dists.
2020-07-07T14:01:45Z Xach: way more than actual archives.
2020-07-07T14:01:55Z vegai: this certainly isn't as advanced as SLIME is
2020-07-07T14:01:59Z phoe: vegai: I don't know - I never watched the CL-on-VSCode scene
2020-07-07T14:02:04Z phoe: perhaps I should
2020-07-07T14:02:08Z vegai: but is enough to get started
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2020-07-07T14:02:50Z beach: I wonder whether that is scymtym's work.
2020-07-07T14:03:15Z beach: I know he worked on it but maybe someone else did as well.
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2020-07-07T14:19:16Z flip214: Xach: the root certificate says valid until "18. Januar 2038, 23:59:59 GMT", perhaps that's a 31bit problem?
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2020-07-07T14:25:10Z phoe: flip214: we'll worry about that in December 2037
2020-07-07T14:26:48Z flip214: phoe: no, because the certificate isn't accepted _now_
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2020-07-07T14:28:01Z phoe: wait a second...
2020-07-07T14:28:10Z phoe: that's the end date
2020-07-07T14:28:13Z phoe: what's the start date?
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2020-07-07T14:28:54Z flip214: Xach: brotli is modern
2020-07-07T14:29:20Z flip214: phoe: May 2019
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2020-07-07T14:29:58Z phoe: the dates seem okay then
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2020-07-07T14:31:17Z flip214: yeah, but the arithmetic on them might be broken
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2020-07-07T14:37:48Z phoe: huh, 18th Jan should still fit within Y2K38
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2020-07-07T14:38:30Z Xach: flip214: oh, i would just stick with gzip, since i already have the code for it in the client.
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2020-07-07T14:42:50Z flip214: Xach: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/6b51c5a0/, both with best settings (gzip -k9, brotli -kZ)
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2020-07-07T14:42:57Z flip214: don't know how expensive bandwidth is for you
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2020-07-07T14:43:41Z flip214: about 20% smaller, but of course I understand the convenience of having the unpacker already available
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2020-07-07T14:43:55Z Xach: flip214: that looks promising, do you have brotli decompression code in CL?
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2020-07-07T14:50:13Z flip214: Xach: use zopfli then. https://paste.debian.net/hidden/72cd504f/, decompression compatible with gzip - in fact, it creates .gz files by default.
2020-07-07T14:50:37Z flip214: still about 10% smaller than gzip.
2020-07-07T14:55:23Z flip214: JFI: I used "zopfli -c -v --i1000 < systems.txt > systems.txt.zopfli"
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2020-07-07T15:40:13Z ym: Do (ql:update-dist "some-package") works for everybody?
2020-07-07T15:40:56Z ym: s/Do/Does/
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2020-07-07T15:53:38Z phoe: ym: what is "some-package"?
2020-07-07T15:53:49Z phoe: you need to put a dist designator there, not a package name
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2020-07-07T15:57:11Z jackdaniel:  
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2020-07-07T16:03:40Z ym: Oh
2020-07-07T16:04:00Z ym: Then how do I update the package?
2020-07-07T16:05:02Z beach: ym: A package is typically created by DEFPACKAGE.  Quicklisp does not deal with packages.  It deals with distributions of systems.
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2020-07-07T16:06:24Z phoe: ym: where did the package come from?
2020-07-07T16:06:40Z phoe: if it came from Quicklisp, then update the "quicklisp" dist - it'll update the whole Quicklisp world
2020-07-07T16:07:10Z ym: Slime doesn't upgrades this way.
2020-07-07T16:07:16Z phoe: how did you install slime?
2020-07-07T16:07:27Z ym: (ql:quickinstall "swank")
2020-07-07T16:08:03Z ym: (ql:system-apropos "slime") shows slime-v2.24 version, but I have 2.23 and (ql:updata-all-dists) doesn't installs newer version.
2020-07-07T16:08:25Z phoe: what is ql:quickinstall
2020-07-07T16:08:29Z phoe: it's not a part of my Lisp image
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2020-07-07T16:09:14Z ym: s/quickinstall/quickload/
2020-07-07T16:09:15Z ym: sorry
2020-07-07T16:09:37Z phoe: no, this is how you load swank
2020-07-07T16:09:41Z phoe: how did you *install* slime?
2020-07-07T16:09:54Z phoe: quicklisp-slime-helper? elpa/melpa? spacemacs?
2020-07-07T16:11:25Z ym: What do you mean by install slime? Doesn't (ql:quickload "swank") downloads slime and swank together?
2020-07-07T16:12:37Z phoe: how does your emacs load slime?
2020-07-07T16:12:48Z ym: With require in .emacs file.
2020-07-07T16:13:06Z phoe: where are the source files for your slime located?
2020-07-07T16:13:28Z ym: ~/stand/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-*
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2020-07-07T16:15:46Z ym: Oh, wait.
2020-07-07T16:15:55Z phoe: no idea then. ensure that slime is loaded from that path and not from somewhere else.
2020-07-07T16:16:01Z ym: There was slime-git in my local-projects.
2020-07-07T16:16:06Z phoe: ha!
2020-07-07T16:16:08Z ym: Sorry, my fault.
2020-07-07T16:16:16Z phoe: I fell for that thing way too many times myself
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2020-07-07T16:16:27Z phoe: so, sure, I know that pain
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2020-07-07T16:24:19Z _death: there is ql:where-is-system
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2020-07-07T16:30:45Z ym: Sadly, it can't be used from .emacs.
2020-07-07T16:31:23Z ym: Hmm...
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2020-07-07T16:44:55Z ym: Strangely, sbcl --eval '(ql:where-is-system "swank")' doesn't returns the path.
2020-07-07T16:46:34Z phoe: what do you mean?
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2020-07-07T16:46:46Z phoe: for me, it works - (ql:where-is-system "swank") ;=> #P"/home/phoe/.roswell/lisp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-v2.24/"
2020-07-07T16:47:39Z ym: For me it works from REPL, but doesn't from terminal.
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2020-07-07T16:55:28Z _death: you need to print it
2020-07-07T16:57:31Z ym: Oh, thanks, it works.
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2020-07-07T18:38:39Z pve: (define-foo blah 123) <-- is this a "define-foo form" or a "define-foo expression" or something else?
2020-07-07T18:40:53Z Bike: both
2020-07-07T18:41:31Z pve: oh, cool thanks
2020-07-07T18:41:46Z pve: was afraid I had some findin' and replacin' to do
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2020-07-07T20:58:41Z |3b|: icfp contest this year ( https://icfpcontest2020.github.io/#/ ) seems to need a premade docker setup to build/run things, anyone know docker well enough to send a PR to https://github.com/icfpcontest2020/dockerfiles ?
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2020-07-07T20:59:45Z phoe: |3b|: what sorta dockerfile you need? just Lisp?
2020-07-07T21:00:05Z phoe: if yes, then https://github.com/daewok/docker-sbcl/ is updated
2020-07-07T21:00:22Z |3b|: looks like it would probably want sbcl and some preinstalled ql stuff (though hard to say which ql stuff)
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2020-07-07T21:01:33Z phoe: will it have internet connection? if yes, then just install the client
2020-07-07T21:01:55Z phoe: and swank
2020-07-07T21:01:58Z |3b|: building base docker image for a language has internet, build and run of submissions do not
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2020-07-07T21:02:09Z phoe: huh
2020-07-07T21:02:19Z phoe: they want to filter out javascript of what
2020-07-07T21:02:21Z phoe: or what*
2020-07-07T21:03:01Z |3b|: you can include all the libs you want in submission, so don't have to put everything in the base
2020-07-07T21:03:12Z phoe: you could try to cheat the system and predownload the Quicklisp world
2020-07-07T21:03:44Z |3b|: the js example includes a bunch of stuff https://github.com/icfpcontest2020/starterkit-javascript/tree/master/app/node_modules
2020-07-07T21:04:11Z phoe: dunno then, grab the most popular quicklisp systems or something
2020-07-07T21:04:17Z phoe: hard to say ahead of time
2020-07-07T21:04:35Z dim: save-lisp-and-die at build time to the rescue, then you have a docker container with an “augmented” SBCL image  in there
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2020-07-07T21:04:49Z |3b|: so maybe just skip QL stuff in the base, and put it in the sample app
2020-07-07T21:04:52Z phoe: generally useful stuff like alexandria, serapeum, closer-mop, split-sequence, esrap, cl-ppcre, babel, flexi-streams, fast-io or what else
2020-07-07T21:04:56Z phoe: oooh or that
2020-07-07T21:05:06Z |3b|: yeah, probably preinstall stuff like that
2020-07-07T21:05:27Z |3b|: (sample needs enough to do an HTTP request anyway, so would probably have a bunch of those)
2020-07-07T21:06:07Z dim: drakma and all build dependencies, and the other http clients too, and puri, and html/xml parsers, and esrap, the short list isn't that short
2020-07-07T21:06:11Z phoe: oh and your favorite http clients, yes
2020-07-07T21:06:38Z dim: hell, I would use pgloader as a proxy to install many dependencies ;-)
2020-07-07T21:07:08Z dim was not a fan of having to package 60+ CL libs for debian to allow for having pgloader there
2020-07-07T21:07:16Z phoe: :D
2020-07-07T21:09:35Z |3b|: phoe: any idea if there is any benefits between daewok/docker-sbcl/ vs fukamachi/sbcl/ docker containers?
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2020-07-07T21:12:34Z phoe: |3b|: no idea
2020-07-07T21:12:38Z |3b|: looks like latter might have roswell/ql already installed, former might have more choice of OS/arch (not sure that matters for this though)
2020-07-07T21:12:46Z phoe: other than for my natural distrust for fukamachiware
2020-07-07T21:12:57Z |3b|: :)
2020-07-07T21:12:58Z dim: one thing I would try with them is doing some SSL stuff or other things you might want to do that require loading a .so file ; it's surprisingly non trivial to make that work reliably, and you certainly want that solved in the docker container
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2020-07-07T21:16:59Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: has anybody here ever used lisp tkinter?
2020-07-07T21:18:49Z phoe: what's tkinter?
2020-07-07T21:19:11Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: toolkit for gui
2020-07-07T21:19:35Z phoe: it seems to be a Python thing
2020-07-07T21:20:35Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: theres tkinter for common lisp tho
2020-07-07T21:21:15Z phoe: link?
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2020-07-07T21:21:47Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: ok
2020-07-07T21:21:52Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: give me a sec
2020-07-07T21:22:28Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/
2020-07-07T21:22:31Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: here it is
2020-07-07T21:23:08Z |3b| tried used ltk one, but doesn't really remember anything about it
2020-07-07T21:23:44Z |3b|: and ltk is a cl alternative to tkinter, not really tkinter for cl :)
2020-07-07T21:23:48Z phoe: that's from 2011
2020-07-07T21:23:52Z phoe: the updated version seems to be at https://github.com/herth/ltk
2020-07-07T21:23:58Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: oh
2020-07-07T21:23:59Z |3b|: both are interfaces to tcl/tk
2020-07-07T21:24:05Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: yeah
2020-07-07T21:27:13Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: oh just figured out my problem
2020-07-07T21:27:24Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: guess i didnt need to ask
2020-07-07T21:27:28Z BACKQUOTED-LIST: sorry if i wasted time
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2020-07-07T21:40:32Z phoe: and off he goes
2020-07-07T21:40:45Z phoe: wanted to tell him that things like that happen, but oh well
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2020-07-07T23:09:16Z Harag: |3b|: if you want to see simple docker for lisp with plenty on notes on what and why, I did these https://gitlab.com/Harag/simple-sbcl-swank-docker and https://gitlab.com/Harag/sbcl-gcloud-run-workaround
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2020-07-08T00:30:04Z |3b|: ok, possibly figured out the docker stuff enough to send a pr https://github.com/icfpcontest2020/dockerfiles/pull/44 :)
2020-07-08T00:31:35Z |3b|: let me know if anyone sees anything obviously wrong, or suggestions for other C/CL libs worth including by default (went ahead and added some common ones to reduce build time, but people can overwrite parts of the ql dir with one in their submission for full control)
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2020-07-08T03:19:12Z Oladon: I find myself needing to write a new combination Markdown (probably Commonmark?) + BBCode parser. What's the best approach, architecture/organization-wise, to ensure maximum utility for others while still attaining my aim of a combination parser?
2020-07-08T03:24:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-07-08T03:24:44Z Oladon: Morning, beach!
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2020-07-08T04:31:53Z gjulio__: morning beach
2020-07-08T04:32:53Z gjulio__: Hey is anyone willing to share a snippet of a .gitattributes file for handling control-m line endings in a *.lisp file? I've been trying a million tactics and I can't seem to resolve the problem.
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2020-07-08T04:56:10Z beach: gjulio__: I suspect few people here have that problem.
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2020-07-08T05:03:48Z gjulio__: i solved it. added *.lisp text eol=crlf to .gitattributes. then added (add-hook 'before-save-hook 'delete-trailing-whitespace) to .emacs and then created new files, moved my lisp file to the new file, added the new file to my git repo, and now it's working. it seems like the *.lisp text eol=crlf stuff isn't retroactive. maybe i'm wrong?
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2020-07-08T05:05:02Z fe[nl]ix: I conform it's not retroactive
2020-07-08T05:05:09Z fe[nl]ix: are you using Windows ?
2020-07-08T05:05:28Z gjulio__: linux
2020-07-08T05:06:13Z fe[nl]ix: then what do you need that for ?
2020-07-08T05:07:23Z gjulio__: what do i need what for?
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2020-07-08T05:08:54Z beach: Why do you have CR characters in your files?
2020-07-08T05:11:03Z gjulio__: not sure. i did edit parts of the file on a different computer that was windows, maybe it's from that?
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2020-07-08T05:12:07Z beach: Very likely.
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2020-07-08T05:39:14Z fe[nl]ix: gjulio__: convert all CRLF line endings to LF and configure your Windows editors to use LF as well
2020-07-08T05:40:16Z gjulio__: thanks. i'm usually using linux, but i'll keep that in mind if i need to switch back.
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2020-07-08T09:39:38Z clintm: Xach: in case it hasn't been reported, xach.com/clhs is broken. :(
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2020-07-08T11:43:28Z phoe: aeth: boop
2020-07-08T11:43:40Z phoe: have you managed to upload your typechecked slots somewhere?
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2020-07-08T12:57:28Z Xach: clintm: yoinks
2020-07-08T12:58:09Z Xach: ha
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2020-07-08T13:15:11Z aeth: phoe: Not yet
2020-07-08T13:15:36Z aeth: hopefully at some point this week
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2020-07-08T13:40:08Z jcowan: What are the most common use cases for the syntaxes #n= and #n#, as opposed to the data structures they represent?  Is it genuinely common to serialize such things as S-exprssions?
2020-07-08T13:40:34Z beach: I use it all the time.
2020-07-08T13:40:52Z jackdaniel: jcowan: (if (foobar xxx) (some-obsucring-macro-boo #1=(actual-form)) #1#)
2020-07-08T13:40:57Z beach: For example, if I have an application with some internal structured data, I use it as a format on disk.
2020-07-08T13:41:36Z jcowan: beach: thanks.  jackdaniel: I didn't mean in code, but that usage is new to me, so I'm glad to see it.
2020-07-08T13:41:37Z beach: jcowan: Recently, the ASTs produced by the SICL compiler are saved like that, thereby producing FASL files .
2020-07-08T13:43:06Z jackdaniel: heh
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2020-07-08T13:51:27Z pfdietz: I usually just do that with flet.
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2020-07-08T13:51:40Z pfdietz: I usually just do that with flet.
2020-07-08T13:51:48Z pfdietz: oops
2020-07-08T13:52:12Z phoe: #1=I usually just do that with flet.
2020-07-08T13:52:15Z phoe: #1#
2020-07-08T13:52:21Z phoe: should have looked like that I guess
2020-07-08T13:52:25Z jackdaniel: (flet ((do-it () "I usually just do that with flet")) (do-it) (do-it))
2020-07-08T13:52:39Z pfdietz: Totally intentional!   #save
2020-07-08T13:52:42Z beach: jcowan: Here is an example.  It is the AST for (defclass t () (:metaclass built-in-class)): http://metamodular.com/SICL/t-defclass.fasl.
2020-07-08T13:54:14Z beach: As you can see the vector for the source code is shared as #2= for instance.
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2020-07-08T13:58:34Z beach: http://metamodular.com/bach262.gsh is an example of a score saved from Gsharp.
2020-07-08T13:59:20Z beach: As you can see, the staves are shared by many objects, like notes.
2020-07-08T14:00:53Z beach: In both cases, I use the character `[' as a reader macro.  It takes a name of a class and a bunch of initargs, just like the protocol dictates.
2020-07-08T14:01:00Z phoe: but all that's just a fancy pretty-printed S-expression with *print-circle* being true
2020-07-08T14:01:05Z phoe: very nice!
2020-07-08T14:01:17Z beach: Thanks.  Yes, very simple.
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2020-07-08T14:01:27Z phoe: I assume [ makes instances at read-time
2020-07-08T14:01:55Z beach: Yes, [ is (apply #'make-instance (read-delimited-list....))
2020-07-08T14:03:07Z beach: It creates a structure that is entirely isomorphic to the original one that was saved.
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2020-07-08T14:08:10Z beach: Notice that no slots are mentioned.  Only protocol elements.
2020-07-08T14:09:39Z phoe: you mean initargs, right?
2020-07-08T14:10:00Z beach: And the class name, yes.
2020-07-08T14:10:10Z phoe: how do you map concrete classes to protocol classes? I assume that GSHARP-BUFFER:BUFFER is a protocol class
2020-07-08T14:10:24Z beach: It's a concrete class.
2020-07-08T14:10:33Z phoe: oh! okay then, that solves one problem
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2020-07-08T14:12:07Z _death: how does it deal with cyclic graphs?
2020-07-08T14:12:30Z beach: With #n= and #n# which was the original question.
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2020-07-08T14:13:59Z _death: beach: these can't create forward references
2020-07-08T14:14:21Z beach: ?
2020-07-08T14:14:47Z beach: The first time an object is printed, it is printed normally, preceded by #n=.
2020-07-08T14:14:51Z phoe: you don't need forward references
2020-07-08T14:15:03Z _death: for example, (defstruct link parent child) the parent link has to refer to the child
2020-07-08T14:15:48Z phoe: #1=[LINK :parent nil :child [LINK :parent #1# :child nil]]
2020-07-08T14:15:55Z _death: you do need forward references for cyclic graphs.. this is the same issue that CL designers solved in make-load-form by having it return a creation form and an initialization form
2020-07-08T14:16:12Z phoe: oh, like *that*
2020-07-08T14:16:16Z phoe: clhs make-load-form
2020-07-08T14:16:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm
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2020-07-08T14:17:35Z phoe: I guess that this is because multiple MAKE-LOAD-FORMs do not necessarily depend on the slots of one another, whereas the above is just one big ball of cyclic references printed as a whole
2020-07-08T14:17:54Z beach: _death: I am not sure I follow.  Try '#1=(a .#1#) at the REPL.
2020-07-08T14:17:58Z phoe: and also because the above utilizes the reader
2020-07-08T14:18:24Z phoe: whereas MAKE-LOAD-FORM must return a Lisp form, which is already post-READ
2020-07-08T14:19:27Z beach: _death: The reader patches the graph after it has been read.
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2020-07-08T14:21:38Z beach: So when it sees #1#, it sticks in some unique temporary object, and enters the correspondence in a table.  Then when the entire expression (in this case a single CONS cell) has been read, the graph is traversed, and the temporary object is replaced by what was returned as #1=.
2020-07-08T14:24:05Z beach: _death: Hello?  Did you faint?
2020-07-08T14:24:11Z aeth: jcowan: One use is when *print-circle*. A useless example: https://gitlab.com/snippets/1761668
2020-07-08T14:24:13Z _death: I'm just thinking it through
2020-07-08T14:24:18Z beach: Ah, OK.
2020-07-08T14:24:39Z _death: I know about the reader syntax.. but as you say it needs to patch things
2020-07-08T14:24:52Z beach: Absolutely.
2020-07-08T14:24:56Z beach: And it does.
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2020-07-08T14:26:04Z _death: so while the form looks like it supplies initargs, it's actually patching the slots?
2020-07-08T14:26:18Z beach: I guess this feature (and its power) is little known, hence the question from jcowan.  I think it is fantastic and, like I said, I use it all the time.
2020-07-08T14:26:31Z phoe: not the slots I guess
2020-07-08T14:26:39Z phoe: the lists that are being read
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2020-07-08T14:27:07Z phoe: and once the list is fully read and patched, APPLY #'MAKE-INSTANCE is called on it
2020-07-08T14:27:10Z phoe: that's how I understand it
2020-07-08T14:27:27Z beach: _death: In my examples, if it sees :some-initarg #n#, it is replaced by :some-initarg <unique>
2020-07-08T14:28:02Z beach: _death: Then, if it turns out that :some-initarg stores <unique> in a slot, then it is patched later.
2020-07-08T14:28:11Z _death: I see
2020-07-08T14:28:15Z phoe: and I assume that all of this patching is done by the reader on the lists, before any MAKE-INSTANCE is even called
2020-07-08T14:28:27Z TMA: unless #n# is encountered before #n=, there is no need to patch if you can construct the object in some incomplete state (the state between allocate-instance and initialize-instance)
2020-07-08T14:28:43Z beach: phoe: Why do you assume that?
2020-07-08T14:28:47Z Bike: TMA: but the reader doesn't know how to do that.
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2020-07-08T14:29:29Z jackdaniel: had there been instances to be serialized, then the reader macro [ wouldn't make sense
2020-07-08T14:29:47Z phoe: beach: you said, "[ is (apply #'make-instance (read-delimited-list....))"
2020-07-08T14:29:55Z jackdaniel: and there is no need to define a method on make-load-form on simple objects, like 3 or :staff
2020-07-08T14:30:04Z phoe: this means that READ-DELIMITED-LIST must finish operating before MAKE-INSTANCE is called
2020-07-08T14:30:06Z beach: phoe: Yes, and the patching is done on the created instance.
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2020-07-08T14:30:12Z beach: Oh, sure.
2020-07-08T14:30:20Z beach: But no patching takes place then.
2020-07-08T14:30:35Z phoe: which means that the reading (including the patching!) must be complete before MAKE-INSTANCE is called
2020-07-08T14:30:49Z beach: Why do you make that conclusion?
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2020-07-08T14:31:57Z jcowan: beach: _death is correct, 2.4.8.16 explicitly forbids forward references with #n#, so no patching is necessary.
2020-07-08T14:32:08Z Bike: reading a standard-object with circular references in it isn't much different from reading a vector with em
2020-07-08T14:32:11Z phoe: because #1= must happen before #1# - if the reader stores the EQ references in some sort of read-time hash table, it can then directly look up the object and insert it there
2020-07-08T14:32:20Z phoe: clhs 2.4.8.16
2020-07-08T14:32:20Z specbot: Sharpsign Sharpsign: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm
2020-07-08T14:32:29Z beach: phoe: Suppose I have #1=[MY-CLASS :stuff #1#]
2020-07-08T14:33:04Z phoe: oooh. that's no list.
2020-07-08T14:33:19Z phoe: that's a standard object with an initarg.
2020-07-08T14:33:33Z phoe: you can't have an instance before calling MAKE-INSTANCE so there is nothing to insert there.
2020-07-08T14:33:37Z phoe: right, I see it now.
2020-07-08T14:33:53Z beach: phoe: First (my-class :stuff #1#) is read, but since we don't know #1#, we replace it with <mumble> and then we call (make-instance 'my-class :stuff <mumble>)
2020-07-08T14:34:18Z beach: phoe: Then the result of that creation is assigned to #1=.
2020-07-08T14:34:39Z beach: Finally, we traverse the graph, find that some instance of my-class has <mumble> in it.
2020-07-08T14:34:54Z beach: So we replace that occurrence with the intance.
2020-07-08T14:34:56Z beach: instance.
2020-07-08T14:35:17Z beach: phoe: Is that clear now?
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2020-07-08T14:35:29Z jcowan: I'm talking only about what has to happen at read time.
2020-07-08T14:35:59Z beach: jcowan: That is precisely what we have been showing in detail.
2020-07-08T14:36:01Z phoe: beach: yes, that's clear now. Thanks.
2020-07-08T14:36:02Z jcowan:  #1=[MY-CLASS :stuff #1#] is not readable.
2020-07-08T14:36:08Z beach: Sure it is.
2020-07-08T14:36:13Z beach: That's how I read it.
2020-07-08T14:36:46Z beach: Like I said, [ is a reader macro that does (apply #'make-instance (read-delimited-list ...))
2020-07-08T14:36:47Z _death: beach: but why use make-instance and not allocate-instance then?
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2020-07-08T14:37:06Z beach: Why would I do that?
2020-07-08T14:37:09Z jcowan: Sorry, I missed that about [
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2020-07-08T14:37:34Z _death: beach: well, what is <mumble>? if the slot has a :type integer it must be an integer or a special value indicated that the slot is unbound
2020-07-08T14:37:41Z _death: *indicating
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2020-07-08T14:37:57Z beach: _death: I am sure that type checking is disabled during reading.
2020-07-08T14:38:24Z beach: Or maybe it uses an instance of the type that the slot has, if it is a slot.
2020-07-08T14:39:09Z beach: If the slot is unbound, then obviously it does not need patching.
2020-07-08T14:39:10Z Bike: this same problem comes up with the #s reader, which is standard.
2020-07-08T14:39:13Z _death: beach: ok.. an alternative design would be to use the two forms from make-load-form..
2020-07-08T14:39:28Z beach: _death: An alternative design for what?
2020-07-08T14:40:12Z _death: for the external format exemplified by the .gsh file
2020-07-08T14:40:39Z beach: Why would I make life harder for myself?  The reader can already do this.
2020-07-08T14:40:59Z beach: I would have to traverse the graph myself then.
2020-07-08T14:41:14Z beach: Now, I just do (PRINT ...)
2020-07-08T14:42:09Z _death: but do you just READ?.. you said that the slots need patching afterwards
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2020-07-08T14:42:27Z Bike: that's the standard ## macro stuff, beach doesn't have to write it
2020-07-08T14:42:31Z beach: READ patches automatically.
2020-07-08T14:42:50Z beach: _death: I just do (READ).
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2020-07-08T14:43:02Z _death: I guess because you defined the #\[ reader macro
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2020-07-08T14:43:24Z beach: That's so that I can print standard objects.
2020-07-08T14:43:40Z _death: right.. in a readable way
2020-07-08T14:43:58Z beach: Yes, it would be foolish to do otherwise. :)
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2020-07-08T14:46:02Z beach: For each class, I also have to give pairs :initarg reader corresponding to the protocol that the class respects.
2020-07-08T14:47:31Z _death: the analogue of make-load-form-saving-slots?
2020-07-08T14:48:08Z beach: Probably not quite.  There are no slots mentioned here.
2020-07-08T14:49:00Z beach: I can have a class with a slot AGE but produce initargs :DATE-OF-BIRTH DATE-OF-BIRTH.
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2020-07-08T14:50:23Z _death: right, so you do that on the level of initargs
2020-07-08T14:50:26Z beach: And, also, if I were to use make-load-form... I would have to LOAD the file, right?
2020-07-08T14:50:52Z _death: yes, you'd need to evaluate the forms
2020-07-08T14:51:00Z beach: That's very dangerous.
2020-07-08T14:51:10Z _death: READing is also dangerous :)
2020-07-08T14:51:17Z beach: Why?
2020-07-08T14:51:23Z beach: I obviously disable #.
2020-07-08T14:51:26Z phoe: _death: so is loading FASLs
2020-07-08T14:51:31Z Bike: make-instance has arbitrary behavior, so it's going ot be dangerous
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2020-07-08T14:52:44Z beach: _death: The initarg and the reader are part of the protocol and I want the saved file to create a graph using the protocol.  That way, I can change the physical structure between save and load.
2020-07-08T14:52:58Z _death: I guess READing is dangerous because you don't have that much control over the reader
2020-07-08T14:53:16Z Bike: you don't have much control over the loader either. i don't understand the debate here
2020-07-08T14:53:36Z Bike: you can easily get arbitrary code evaluated either way
2020-07-08T14:53:49Z Bike: i mean there's no way to allocate an instance without calling allocate-instance, which can have whatever user methods
2020-07-08T14:54:01Z beach: Bike: How would you do that with make-instance?
2020-07-08T14:54:25Z beach: Bike: If I don't allow external code to be loaded, how do those method come into existence?
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2020-07-08T14:54:45Z Bike: well that sounds more like you can't execute arbitrary code either way
2020-07-08T14:54:55Z _death: I mean dangerous in that it there are arbitrary limits you can't control when invoking the reader
2020-07-08T14:55:28Z beach: Whatever.  I think I am too tired for this.
2020-07-08T14:56:29Z _death: for example the length and depth of lists, symbol names, magnitudes of numbers, etc.
2020-07-08T14:57:07Z beach: Yeah, I should have used make-load-form instead.  My bad.  Sorry.
2020-07-08T14:57:12Z _death: no
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2020-07-08T14:57:33Z phoe: _death: I assume that the FASL files are trusted and don't contain hostile data
2020-07-08T14:57:48Z beach: This kind of exchange makes me upset, so I'll quit now.
2020-07-08T14:57:57Z phoe: such as a class name that is ten gigabytes long
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2020-07-08T14:58:15Z Bike: you're arguing about which of two standard mechanisms to use and both of thos emechanisms are chock full of hooks to do arbitrary things at arbitrary times, so you have to control what files are being loaded or something. both can deal with circular structures and custom object definitions.
2020-07-08T14:58:25Z _death: beach: this is unrelated to the make-load-form remarks.. I'm just saying READ is "dangerous" too :).. I did not mean to say that the make-load-form design is better or anything, just tried to understand this format
2020-07-08T14:58:37Z beach: I don't care anymore.
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2020-07-08T15:05:01Z theseb: What is easiest way to implement *global variables* in a common lisp like implementation I wrote?
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2020-07-08T15:05:23Z theseb: What I mean is....I want to set x in a function and then have value OUTSIDE the function be modified
2020-07-08T15:05:25Z theseb: possible?
2020-07-08T15:06:02Z theseb: e.g.   x = 3 ; set x = 4 in f(x) ; print x outside of f and get 4
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2020-07-08T15:07:51Z beach: theseb: Most existing Common Lisp implementations have a slot in the symbol.
2020-07-08T15:08:51Z phoe: alternatively you can make some sort of global hashtable whose keys are symbols and whose values are variable values
2020-07-08T15:09:06Z beach: theseb: Not that I know how your implementation works.  I am just telling you what is usually done.
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2020-07-08T15:10:13Z beach: theseb: The advantage of the symbol slot is that the symbol becomes available to the program at read time, so it is just an indirection to set the value.
2020-07-08T15:10:42Z beach: theseb: The hash table solution is slower, because you need, well, a hash-table access for each operation.
2020-07-08T15:11:00Z theseb: phoe: if a global table sets variable x to equal variable y...what do you do next? i'm intrigued
2020-07-08T15:11:21Z beach: theseb: Common Lisp doesn't work the way you may think.
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2020-07-08T15:11:33Z beach: Assigning doesn't create a link between variables.
2020-07-08T15:11:45Z beach: The value of one is accessed and then given to the other.
2020-07-08T15:11:54Z beach: Just like any programming language.
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2020-07-08T15:12:18Z phoe: theseb: (defvar *x* 42) (defvar *y* *x*)
2020-07-08T15:12:25Z phoe: *y* is 42
2020-07-08T15:12:33Z theseb: phoe: yes
2020-07-08T15:12:35Z phoe: don't know what you expect
2020-07-08T15:12:47Z phoe: (setf *x* 24)
2020-07-08T15:12:52Z phoe: *x* is 24, *y* is 42
2020-07-08T15:12:56Z theseb: phoe: right
2020-07-08T15:13:03Z phoe: same if you use a hash table
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2020-07-08T15:13:07Z Bike: so what does your "I'm intrigued" comment mean.
2020-07-08T15:13:10Z Bike: what is intriguing
2020-07-08T15:13:26Z theseb: phoe: i understand all that but how will that help me modify *x* or *y* in a function f?
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2020-07-08T15:13:39Z Bike: the function modifies the hash table.
2020-07-08T15:13:41Z phoe: you grab the symbol itself and use it as a key to the hash table
2020-07-08T15:13:52Z theseb: Bike: intriguing because slots sounded complicated but variable setting is something i can do and understand
2020-07-08T15:13:54Z phoe: that's how you can modify the hash table
2020-07-08T15:14:21Z Bike: i don't think any of these implementations of global variables is very complicated. neither is the sicl one
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2020-07-08T15:14:52Z Bike: it does get complicated when you start having local specials and thread locality, but for globals, whatever
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2020-07-08T15:16:17Z beach: I am guessing that theseb doesn't know how to get the symbol into the executable code.
2020-07-08T15:16:28Z phoe: just quote it
2020-07-08T15:16:38Z beach: phoe: This is not Common Lisp.
2020-07-08T15:16:39Z phoe: ...if your language has a quote
2020-07-08T15:16:48Z theseb: Bike: to give you context.....the reason this came up is i'm implementing a print function by appending to a global variable called output
2020-07-08T15:17:07Z theseb: i.e. when you "print" you store strings in a list called the output list
2020-07-08T15:17:08Z beach: But then, it all depends on the implementation, and I suspect it is very different from the way Common Lisp and indeed other languages as well, are implemented.
2020-07-08T15:17:35Z theseb: I was having trouble modifying this output list in some places
2020-07-08T15:18:22Z theseb: errr i could modify it anywhere I wanted but the changes would disappear once I left a scope ;)
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2020-07-08T15:18:55Z Bike: i don't think the context matters. it's pretty simple. you have a persistent hash table and you modify that table
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2020-07-08T15:19:14Z Bike: i have no idea what your language targets or anything. maybe it's not image based. in that case you'd be really far off topic for this channel
2020-07-08T15:20:10Z beach: theseb: Your questions are essentially about how to implement a programming language.  That is really too general for #lisp.  If you want to know how to implement Common Lisp, we can help you with that, but it is nearly impossible for us to debug a problem in your own implementation of a language that is not Common Lisp.
2020-07-08T15:20:37Z beach: And a very special implementation too, it seems.
2020-07-08T15:20:40Z theseb: my language is basically what SICP says
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2020-07-08T15:21:12Z phoe: then you could use the knowledge SICP provides about environments
2020-07-08T15:21:23Z beach: theseb: Do you have READ?
2020-07-08T15:21:31Z Bike: sicp probably uses alists. same principle.
2020-07-08T15:22:58Z theseb: What do you think of this...I'm going to open source a project called "Program To Processor"....you start with a minimal Python variant called Snake and convert to AST...then convert the AST to a minimal intermediate Lisp code...then to a simple virtual processor...All the parts are written in python for easy reading
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2020-07-08T15:23:26Z theseb: So basically the entire stack and all code in all layers will be accessible and understandable in python
2020-07-08T15:23:36Z Bike: i mean i like lisp better than python, which is why i'm in the lisp channel and not the python channel.
2020-07-08T15:23:39Z theseb: so my little lisp thing is the executable intermediate code layer
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2020-07-08T15:23:51Z theseb: I need to have it as simple as possible so students can grok whole thing
2020-07-08T15:24:10Z beach: It sounds complicated already.
2020-07-08T15:24:13Z theseb: Bike: i see part of this project as a way to introduce Lisp as well
2020-07-08T15:24:27Z jackdaniel: python with all its arbitrary syntactic rules (and oh my god spaces) is not easy to read, at most it is easy to evangelise as easy to read :)
2020-07-08T15:24:29Z Bike: you can teach in lisp. that's what sicp is, after all.
2020-07-08T15:24:30Z theseb: Bike: "Oh wow that intermediate language is really cool and elegant!"
2020-07-08T15:24:41Z theseb: "i want to learn more about this lisp thing"
2020-07-08T15:25:00Z theseb: "Is is like a lean slimmed down python!"
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2020-07-08T15:26:16Z jackdaniel: I think that this is as far from Common Lisp as one could get having parenthesis involved
2020-07-08T15:27:16Z theseb: jackdaniel: ;)
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2020-07-08T15:27:40Z joels: There's always value in spreading some lisp in areas where there is none
2020-07-08T15:27:42Z jackdaniel: and by saying taht I meant that this is offtopic on this channel
2020-07-08T15:28:26Z theseb: jackdaniel: i guess i'm becoming the black sheep of the channel
2020-07-08T15:29:10Z beach: theseb: You are asking impossible questions, and you don't understand the recommendations, so it is very frustrating.
2020-07-08T15:31:52Z theseb: beach: sorry i'm slow....i think i understand why a hashtable is the answer now....if you modify e.g. x=4 in a function those changes will disappear when you leave scope but if x = more complex object like a hash table then changes will survive when you leave scope....is that it?
2020-07-08T15:32:06Z phoe: wait a second
2020-07-08T15:32:09Z phoe: X is a global variable
2020-07-08T15:32:12Z phoe: so it will never go out of scope
2020-07-08T15:32:22Z phoe: so scopes are totally irrelevant
2020-07-08T15:32:43Z beach: theseb: x is not a hash table.  It is a symbol, and it is used as a key in a hash table.
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2020-07-08T15:32:57Z beach: That's an example of what I was just saying.
2020-07-08T15:33:02Z theseb: beach: oh you pass in the *key* to the function
2020-07-08T15:33:18Z phoe: yes, that's what I said twenty minutes ago
2020-07-08T15:33:21Z phoe: 17:13 < phoe> you grab the symbol itself and use it as a key to the hash table
2020-07-08T15:33:34Z theseb: not sure why i'm so slow to "get" this stuff
2020-07-08T15:33:51Z beach: x = 4 becomes (setf (gethash 'x *global-hash-table-containing-global-values*) 4)
2020-07-08T15:34:50Z beach: theseb: My hypothesis is that it is time for you to read about compiler design as opposed to guessing how it might be done.
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2020-07-08T15:37:12Z _death: beach: I wrote a bit of code and I think I understand what happens where/when better now.. e.g., https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1946#1946
2020-07-08T15:38:38Z beach: Great!
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2020-07-08T17:47:25Z |3b|: ok, CL(sbcl) should be supported for icfp programminng contest :) if anyone intends to participate with CL, might check https://github.com/icfpcontest2020/dockerfiles/tree/master/dockerfiles/commonlisp and (the pull request on) https://github.com/icfpcontest2020/starterkit-commonlisp for anything you think should be improved
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2020-07-09T03:31:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-07-09T03:37:07Z aaaaaa: beach: good morning. Long time no see
2020-07-09T03:37:35Z beach: That must be because of your absence.  I've been here.
2020-07-09T03:38:15Z aaaaaa: beach: Yes. Been busy...
2020-07-09T03:38:42Z beach: You must have changed your nick too.
2020-07-09T03:38:53Z aaaaaa: beach: Yes. I was ArthurStrong
2020-07-09T03:39:00Z beach: Ah, I see now.
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2020-07-09T03:56:52Z z3t0: beach: morning!
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2020-07-09T04:04:57Z beach: z3t0: [Looking at the channel logs] A few days ago, fbmnds showed up here to announce the intention of using EQL5 with ECL on Android etc.  Not sure whether you are still interested in that stuff.
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2020-07-09T04:08:08Z seok: I'm thinking of not using a db and just using lisp objects
2020-07-09T04:08:33Z beach: Good idea.
2020-07-09T04:08:35Z seok: would this have lower throughput / performance for predicate based searches?
2020-07-09T04:08:46Z seok: compared to sql/ or other dbs
2020-07-09T04:08:55Z beach: How big is your data set?
2020-07-09T04:09:07Z seok: I dunno, I want to get it pretty big
2020-07-09T04:09:27Z beach: More than 10GB?
2020-07-09T04:09:53Z seok: let's say facebook or reddit ran  in-memory on lisp
2020-07-09T04:10:36Z seok: I reckon id-based searches would do fine
2020-07-09T04:10:50Z seok: but concerned about comparison searches etc
2020-07-09T04:12:04Z seok: I don't think it will get bigger than 10gb soon, but in the future maybe?
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2020-07-09T04:12:48Z beach: If things will fit in RAM, then I am guessing it will always be faster than a traditional relational database manager.
2020-07-09T04:12:59Z seok: Yes, that's what I'm expecting
2020-07-09T04:13:13Z seok: I don't see a reason why not
2020-07-09T04:14:10Z seok: To search for a row with a integer field between x and y, a traditional db still loops through the entire table doesn't it?
2020-07-09T04:14:44Z beach: I am no expert, so I won't attempt to guess.
2020-07-09T04:15:22Z beach: But whatever optimization tricks a database manager can do, you should be able to do as well, and faster.
2020-07-09T04:15:43Z seok: cool
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2020-07-09T04:32:22Z z3t0: beach: still very interested yes! I've been eyeing mocl even.
2020-07-09T04:32:50Z z3t0: is there somewhere I can read more about this?
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2020-07-09T04:45:39Z beach: Try the channel logs.  I don't know anything more than that.  Or perhaps jackdaniel knows more.
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2020-07-09T04:57:53Z z3t0: will do thanks
2020-07-09T04:58:09Z z3t0: On a sidenote, anyone here playing around with lisp and pinephones?
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2020-07-09T05:55:22Z phoe: minion: memo for seok: traditional DBs often use indices to speed up searches and avoid full loops over tables, so it is possible that an in-memory linear iteration over a whole table is going to be *slower* than database access that is logarithmic or better - that's a data structure problem
2020-07-09T05:55:22Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell seok when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-07-09T06:15:01Z fbmnds: good morning
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2020-07-09T06:16:07Z fbmnds: beach: thank you for passing the topic to z3t0:
2020-07-09T06:17:42Z beach: fbmnds: Pleasure.
2020-07-09T06:17:56Z fbmnds: z3t0: afaik, there is not much published around EQL5 - I can recommend though the examples on https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5
2020-07-09T06:19:34Z fbmnds: beach: I am checking the logs every once and a while - I am using the chat more like a black board
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2020-07-09T06:25:50Z beach: I see.
2020-07-09T06:25:53Z z3t0: fbmnds: thanks, I have a project in mind where I want to write a kitchen sink android app for capturing tasks and notes temporarily. Didn't want to touch java... Hopefully EQL suits my use case
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2020-07-09T06:31:33Z fbmnds: z3t0: you may want to read https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/posts/Lisp-ECL-and-QML-Qt5-on-Android.html
2020-07-09T06:32:27Z fbmnds: z3t0: there you also find the download link for the Android apps which work fine; see also https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5-Android
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2020-07-09T06:53:13Z fbmnds: I guess, some traffic has been generated https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5-Android/-/issues/17
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2020-07-09T07:24:33Z phoe: hey that's me
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2020-07-09T07:29:54Z fbmnds: phoe: thought so
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2020-07-09T08:32:10Z seok: phoe: nice, thank you
2020-07-09T08:32:10Z minion: seok, memo from phoe: traditional DBs often use indices to speed up searches and avoid full loops over tables, so it is possible that an in-memory linear iteration over a whole table is going to be *slower* than database access that is logarithmic or better - that's a data structure problem
2020-07-09T08:32:42Z seok: I'm trying to look up on this topic, what would be the search keywords?
2020-07-09T08:33:31Z seok: do traditional databases create an index for every field so it can do sorts?
2020-07-09T08:33:46Z phoe: seok: I just found an article on Hacker News yesterday that sounds really related - https://blog.dbi-services.com/the-myth-of-nosql-vs-rdbms-joins-dont-scale/
2020-07-09T08:34:31Z phoe: tl;dr you can define where indices should be created by the database, and that allows the DB to avoid full table scans. that's off-topic for #lisp, but that article should give you pointers and search keywords for future digging up
2020-07-09T08:35:04Z phoe: this article also compares SQL databases to NoSQL databases a little bit, and in-memory key-value stores are a form of NoSQL - hence further relevance to your topic
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2020-07-09T09:15:20Z pve: Hi, is loading a source file equivalent to binding *package* and *readtable* and then doing roughly (do-until-eof (eval (read file-stream)))?
2020-07-09T09:16:43Z beach: Sounds about right.  Why do you ask?
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2020-07-09T09:18:35Z jdz: There are also *load-pathname* and *load-truename*, and interaction with EVAL-WHEN I'm not quite sure about.
2020-07-09T09:19:05Z pve: beach: my toy language has a load-source-file function, and I was just considering how similar it is to CL:LOAD
2020-07-09T09:19:33Z beach: Hmm, OK.
2020-07-09T09:19:33Z pve: I mean, I suppose would like it to be as similar as possible
2020-07-09T09:20:07Z beach: If you want it to be as similar as possible, why don't you implement Common Lisp?
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2020-07-09T09:21:04Z beach: I should ask it differently:  Why are you working on implementing a toy language?
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2020-07-09T09:22:42Z phoe: beach: sounds like it's smalltalk-on-CL
2020-07-09T09:22:48Z pve: I'm simply exploring what it is like to build a language on top of CL
2020-07-09T09:23:00Z beach: OK.
2020-07-09T09:25:37Z pve: I'm now at the point where I can compile and load source files into my running lisp with C-c C-k, so I'm pretty happy with that
2020-07-09T09:26:47Z pve: "compile" meaning go from the smalltalk-like syntax to CL
2020-07-09T09:29:42Z pve: jdz: good point about *load-pathname* and *load-truename*
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2020-07-09T10:10:17Z dim: seok: about database vs lisp objects, the main question is about concurrency behavior. how do you intend to approach concurrent edits to the same objects from multiple threads? can you run more than one lisp image with the same dataset? that's where a database solves many problems, concurrent accesses to a single data set, with business guarantees (constraints), and then ACID is a nice set of properties to have, and all falls down from there, including SQL
2020-07-09T10:10:59Z seok: only intend to use one thread for writing
2020-07-09T10:11:10Z dim: SQL allows to send computations where the data is and in a way that remains ACID compliant, and makes it easy enough to reason about etc
2020-07-09T10:11:33Z seok: I don't think acid is so difficult to implement
2020-07-09T10:11:40Z dim: seok: if you have a solid answer then it's all good, I'm trying to say that this is the main question you should consider here, in my opinion
2020-07-09T10:11:51Z dim: ahahahahahah
2020-07-09T10:11:52Z seok: plus, I intend to write my application as append only
2020-07-09T10:12:18Z seok: I'm more concerned about throughput
2020-07-09T10:12:23Z dim: sorry about that, but yeah, sure, it took only years and years of very hard work from very talented people to implement ACID, and almost all implementations of it are buggy in different ways
2020-07-09T10:12:52Z dim: seok: if you think ACID isn't so difficult, may I suggest you spend some quality time reading https://jepsen.io ?
2020-07-09T10:13:07Z seok: Well, it probably is hard trying to write a general solution for acid indeed!
2020-07-09T10:13:52Z dim: if you can understand this article on the first read, then maybe you can implement your own acid needs yourself, otherwise I personnaly would not even try: https://jepsen.io/analyses/postgresql-12.3
2020-07-09T10:15:05Z seok: I agree with what you are saying that there are certainly bug-prone areas for a general solution database accommodating  multiple read write clients,
2020-07-09T10:15:10Z dim: anyway, I got triggered with database vs internal in-memory objects, the trade-off is all about concurrency, that's my message ;-)
2020-07-09T10:15:15Z seok: but that's not what I'm trying to write though
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2020-07-09T10:16:04Z dim: sounds good then, seems like you actually have a choice
2020-07-09T10:16:18Z dim: (I mean a choice that's different from implementing ACID yourself)
2020-07-09T10:16:52Z seok: I'm bit scared of running out of memory writing poor search solutions
2020-07-09T10:16:57Z seok: : (
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2020-07-09T10:17:45Z seok: I'm still reading the article phoe sent me xD
2020-07-09T10:17:50Z dim: PAIP has nice chapters all about solving search problems in lisp, including writing a prolog interpreter from scratch and then a compiler to optimise it
2020-07-09T10:18:01Z seok: paip?
2020-07-09T10:18:24Z dim: see https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2020-07-09T10:18:36Z seok: At this stage, I'm wondering if sbcl's sort is suffice for large arrays
2020-07-09T10:18:50Z seok: Ah thank you
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2020-07-09T10:24:06Z Harag: seok: I run 10 mil records in a in memory database on sbcl no problem and searches can be done in sub seconds on 10 mil
2020-07-09T10:24:11Z Harag: sub second
2020-07-09T10:24:35Z seok: @Harag Thats great to hear!
2020-07-09T10:24:52Z seok: I don't need to do special indexing or anything?
2020-07-09T10:24:52Z Harag: seok: you can look at cl-naive-store
2020-07-09T10:25:33Z Harag: if you are not worried about creating duplicates then no indexing needed
2020-07-09T10:26:31Z Harag: and there is very little difference in scanning a list and array in sbcl
2020-07-09T10:26:49Z Harag: once again sub second
2020-07-09T10:27:06Z seok: but getting a value out of array is O(1) isn't it?
2020-07-09T10:27:16Z Harag: if you have the index
2020-07-09T10:27:20Z seok: yes
2020-07-09T10:27:27Z Harag: so you need indexing
2020-07-09T10:27:40Z seok: Sometimes I will have the index
2020-07-09T10:27:41Z Harag: then a hashtable would give more flexibility
2020-07-09T10:27:50Z seok: sometimes I will need to find a value
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2020-07-09T10:28:06Z Harag: gives you "comprehensible" key/index
2020-07-09T10:28:24Z Harag: and once again the speed difference is small
2020-07-09T10:29:03Z Harag: seok we can take this off line if want to discuss it further, we are poluting ;)
2020-07-09T10:29:14Z seok: Sure!
2020-07-09T10:29:16Z seok: : D
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2020-07-09T10:42:57Z seok: How do I find out how much memory an object is using?
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2020-07-09T10:51:34Z red-dot: Hola everyone. For those using gitlab.commonlisp.net: is there something special you need to do to fork a repository? All the fork buttons are greyed out for me.
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2020-07-09T11:00:44Z red-dot: That's interesting. It looks like there are 0 forks of all the projects I looked at. Are forks disabled on gitlab.commonlisp.net? If so, how to people contribute improvements?
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2020-07-09T11:04:48Z |3b|: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria and https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf seem to have forks, though not sure how to see it on those pages
2020-07-09T11:06:20Z phoe: red-dot: yes
2020-07-09T11:06:37Z phoe: go to #common-lisp.net and ask ehuelsmann for boosting your repo limit
2020-07-09T11:07:15Z phoe: you can't fork because your default repo limit is at 0; AFAIK that's an unfortunate implication of spambots having it really really hard on clnet's gitlab
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2020-07-09T11:22:54Z red-dot: Thanks.
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2020-07-09T12:16:58Z seok: just noticed a fresh sbcl (room) returns this
2020-07-09T12:16:59Z seok: Dynamic space usage is:   80,281,232 bytes.
2020-07-09T12:17:15Z ebrasca: Do you know someting about syntax highlight for web pages? ( cl )
2020-07-09T12:17:39Z seok: Does this means a blank sbcl compiled will be 80mb?
2020-07-09T12:17:46Z seok: Or just the functions used?
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2020-07-09T12:21:34Z _death: ebrasca: do you mean something like https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/blob/master/colorize.lisp ?
2020-07-09T12:22:52Z phoe: ebrasca: for sure Plaster uses something like that.
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2020-07-09T12:24:21Z phoe: if it's able to highlight stuff like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1944# then it must use something for that
2020-07-09T12:24:49Z ebrasca: I am thinking on having my on pastebin for cl. I am playing with weblocks.
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2020-07-09T12:30:36Z phoe: grab plaster and take it apart then
2020-07-09T12:30:44Z phoe: it should provide inspiration and such
2020-07-09T12:36:30Z ebrasca: thx _death , phoe
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2020-07-09T12:40:54Z duuqnd: seok: When I run ROOM I get 43,205,072 bytes if dynamic space used
2020-07-09T12:41:03Z duuqnd: s/if/of
2020-07-09T12:41:09Z seok: Hm
2020-07-09T12:41:22Z seok: Is there a way to find the memory usage of an object?
2020-07-09T12:41:40Z seok: what's the sbcl version of ccl:object-direct-size
2020-07-09T12:41:41Z seok: ?
2020-07-09T12:42:20Z duuqnd: I don't know if there is one. I've looked in the past and found nothing
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2020-07-09T12:42:32Z seok: That's a shame
2020-07-09T12:42:34Z duuqnd: But I don't know for sure, it could exist
2020-07-09T12:42:40Z duuqnd: I just haven't seen it
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2020-07-09T12:47:42Z phoe: maybe #sbcl might help you
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2020-07-09T17:52:58Z cracauer: hello
2020-07-09T17:53:40Z duuqnd: hi
2020-07-09T17:56:21Z phoe: heyyyy
2020-07-09T17:57:18Z shka_: hi
2020-07-09T18:00:24Z aaaaaa: Hi all. how do you serialize data to file? I just want (1.2) to be stored like the "(1.2)" string. and read it back then. I saw this in some lisp/scheme textbooks, but forgot.
2020-07-09T18:00:41Z duuqnd: PRINT works for simple stuff
2020-07-09T18:00:47Z aaaaaa: duuqnd: thanks
2020-07-09T18:01:08Z Bike: aaaaaa: specifically, use prin1 if you want lisp to be able to read it back.
2020-07-09T18:01:09Z shka_: print and read
2020-07-09T18:01:29Z aaaaaa: thanks
2020-07-09T18:01:30Z Bike: and bind *print-readably* to t
2020-07-09T18:01:30Z aaaaaa: !
2020-07-09T18:02:51Z duuqnd: If you ever want to serialize CLOS objects I'd recommend the library cl-store
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2020-07-09T19:15:29Z Harag: is there any statistics available for projects in quicklisp, specifically how many downloads of it?
2020-07-09T19:18:10Z Harag: the newest ones I can find is http://blog.quicklisp.org/2018/02/download-stats-for-january-2018.html
2020-07-09T19:20:06Z fe[nl]ix: hey cracauer
2020-07-09T19:21:13Z Harag: Xach: is it a big job? I am considering trashing api compatibility for my project, and it should be ok since I dont think anybody but me uses it, I just wanted to be sure before I spoil some ones day.
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2020-07-09T21:14:44Z Xach: Harag: it's a medium job
2020-07-09T21:15:00Z Xach: Harag: i'd argue for you not to trash it anyway, though!
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2020-07-09T21:47:54Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: I'm in the process of rewriting Bordeaux-threads. the two implementations will coexist in different packages until I switch everybody to the new one
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2020-07-09T22:02:08Z Harag: Xach: yes I know that it would be the right thing to do but I really want to change some stuff, and really really dont want to start a new project :(
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2020-07-09T22:03:48Z Harag: maybe I can get away with a compatability layer...
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2020-07-09T23:19:30Z theseb: Is it possible to use defvar, defparameter, or let multiple times with the SAME variable/symbol? even in the same function?  you'll just keep creating a new variable right?
2020-07-09T23:20:02Z Bike: you shouldn't be using defvar or defparameter in function bodies.
2020-07-09T23:20:22Z Bike: if you have a let inside another let, any names in the inner let will shadow those in the outer let.
2020-07-09T23:20:36Z Bike: which is to say there will be distinct bindings.
2020-07-09T23:22:14Z theseb: ok thanks
2020-07-09T23:23:11Z theseb: Bike: what motivated this question is that it seems you can get by with never mutating....just declaring new variables
2020-07-09T23:23:23Z theseb: Bike: and since functional is trendy maybe that is even fashionable
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2020-07-09T23:23:51Z Bike: you don't need to mutate bindigns, sure. it's more like tail calls for control flow than nested bindings, though.
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2020-07-09T23:44:06Z White_Flame: mutation is a way to pass information to another piece of code irrespective of flow control
2020-07-09T23:44:36Z White_Flame: if your information passage is always well-known, then parameters & local variables/bindings can do it all
2020-07-09T23:45:23Z White_Flame: (and return values)
2020-07-09T23:48:02Z |3b|: also note that DEFVAR won't change an existing variable, and DEFPARAMETER is effectively mutation when the variable already exists
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2020-07-09T23:48:28Z |3b| wonders if defparameter inside the scope of a dynamic binding of that variable modifies that binding or the global value
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2020-07-09T23:49:36Z |3b|: seems to be local binding, not what i had originally guessed :)
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2020-07-10T00:13:05Z seok: Is it a bad idea to use (ql:quickload ) over setting depends-on in .asd file?
2020-07-10T00:14:00Z |3b|: probably, for anything beyond quick hacks
2020-07-10T00:14:08Z seok: why so?
2020-07-10T00:14:51Z |3b|: harder to introspect what it depends on, or build an image without quicklisp
2020-07-10T00:15:13Z |3b|: if other people want to use it, they might not have QL, or might not have a network connection
2020-07-10T00:15:31Z seok: hm
2020-07-10T00:15:32Z seok: ok
2020-07-10T00:15:42Z |3b|: possibly some oddness with ordering if other things want to depend on it
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2020-07-10T00:17:31Z |3b| frequently has a ql:quickload form in a comment or #- in new projects so i can manually evaluate it to easily load the dependencies before i get around to writing an .asd file though
2020-07-10T00:19:54Z White_Flame: |3b|: the defparameter would basically perform a setf if it already exists, so affecting the current binding makes sense
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2020-07-10T00:20:30Z |3b|: yeah, either makes sense, i just guessed wrong :)
2020-07-10T00:21:14Z |3b|: if it did setf of symbol-value it would affect the global binding, setf of name directly would be local, i guessed global since i think of it in terms of global variables, but spec says name
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2020-07-10T00:25:43Z seok: is there a way to read only last x lines of a file?
2020-07-10T00:26:27Z seok: I want to implement some sort of FILO from a file system
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2020-07-10T00:33:25Z White_Flame: read-line, rolling buffer of x lines, loop until eof?
2020-07-10T00:34:01Z White_Flame: would be the easiest to do
2020-07-10T00:34:07Z seok: what is that?
2020-07-10T00:34:19Z seok: hm
2020-07-10T00:34:36Z seok: I'm trying to find a solution that does not become more expensive with bigger files
2020-07-10T00:35:00Z White_Flame: the biggest problem with trying to read backwards is the stupid CRLF that some files use
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2020-07-10T00:35:13Z White_Flame: if you can guarantee a LF character, then you could scan backwards for X number of those
2020-07-10T00:35:32Z seok: I can write in separate files, but lisp puts 10 before 2
2020-07-10T00:35:53Z White_Flame: uh
2020-07-10T00:35:59Z White_Flame: that doesn't make sense.  If you're sorting, then you tell it how to sort
2020-07-10T00:36:20Z White_Flame: if you're sorting strings, then it's up to you to do the zero padding or conversion to numbers
2020-07-10T00:36:44Z seok: well, uiop:directory-files to be precise
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2020-07-10T00:36:51Z seok: hm, I guess it might not matter
2020-07-10T00:37:02Z White_Flame: the filesystem also might be sorting it for some reason
2020-07-10T00:37:20Z White_Flame: but if you're not sorting it yourself, then you cannot rely on the ordering of files being consistent
2020-07-10T00:38:20Z seok: right
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2020-07-10T00:41:30Z seok: What's the best library for storing simple lisp objects, no functions or clos, into files?
2020-07-10T00:44:03Z Xach: seok: cl-store is very easy to use.
2020-07-10T00:44:22Z seok: Thank you xach
2020-07-10T00:44:25Z Xach: seok: but simpler still is using write
2020-07-10T00:44:41Z seok: Can I store non-strings with just write?
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2020-07-10T00:45:47Z seok: hm
2020-07-10T00:45:50Z White_Flame: hash tables don't have a readable form, but structures do
2020-07-10T00:46:22Z seok: is write/read more performant than cl-store?
2020-07-10T00:46:45Z Xach: seok: it depends on the objects.
2020-07-10T00:46:59Z Xach: seok: what objects did you have in mind specifically?
2020-07-10T00:47:35Z seok: just strings and numbers
2020-07-10T00:47:57Z Xach: write/read are likely to be faster than using cl-store in that case.
2020-07-10T00:48:05Z seok: I don't think read can read floats though?
2020-07-10T00:48:17Z Xach: seok: why do you think that? read reads all your source code.
2020-07-10T00:48:23Z seok: oh
2020-07-10T00:48:27Z seok: ok
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2020-07-10T00:48:54Z seok: I just remembered there was something about floats that makes them difficult to parse
2020-07-10T00:49:07Z seok: You're right
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2020-07-10T00:49:57Z White_Flame: printers of FP numbers have generated ascii representations that can be read back in bit-for-bit matching for decades now
2020-07-10T00:51:07Z |3b|: just make sure you include type in the ascii (1f0 or 1d0 instead of 1.0 etc) or READ with same default float format
2020-07-10T00:51:51Z seok: (write 1f0) gives 1.0 though
2020-07-10T00:51:55Z seok: :O
2020-07-10T00:52:01Z White_Flame: all depends on default-float-format
2020-07-10T00:52:10Z White_Flame: if that's the same between reading & writing, it's fine
2020-07-10T00:52:44Z White_Flame: *read-default-float-format*
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2020-07-10T00:53:07Z seok: Ah found it
2020-07-10T00:53:09Z seok: thank you
2020-07-10T00:55:01Z |3b|: might also look at WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX when using write/read for data files, so you can try to have a consistent state more easily
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2020-07-10T03:24:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-07-10T03:28:00Z alandipert: hi beach!
2020-07-10T03:29:25Z beach: Hey, how is JACL going?
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2020-07-10T05:17:15Z alandipert: beach oh you know, very slowly :-) working on the best way to support multiple values currently
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2020-07-10T05:27:17Z beach: Yes, I understand.
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2020-07-10T06:47:15Z easye: If one applies CL:REVERSE to a vector specialized on a given type (unsigned-byte 32), is a conforming implementation allowed to return an unspecialized result?
2020-07-10T06:50:21Z easye: From <http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_revers.htm>, a conforming implementation has to have an "actual array element type" so I'm judging the answer to be yes.
2020-07-10T06:52:34Z phoe: AAET means "the type for which the array is actually specialized"
2020-07-10T06:53:36Z phoe: so, "For reverse, if sequence is a vector, the result is a fresh simple array of rank one that has the same actual array element type as sequence."
2020-07-10T06:54:10Z phoe: "For reverse, if sequence is a vector, the result is a fresh simple array of rank one that has the same type for which the array is actually specialized as the input sequence."
2020-07-10T06:54:24Z phoe: so I read it as: if you pass a specialized vector of ub32, then the result must also be a specialized vector of ub32
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2020-07-10T07:04:15Z easye: phoe: yes, that is my reading as well.  Thanks for confirming.
2020-07-10T07:04:25Z easye fixes more of the internals of the Bear.
2020-07-10T07:04:51Z easye: Sometimes I am surprised that ABCL can correctly do any numerics at all.
2020-07-10T07:04:59Z phoe: easye: actually I misread you
2020-07-10T07:05:19Z phoe: if your answer is "yes, the implementation is allowed to return an unspecialized result" then I guess I disagree
2020-07-10T07:05:31Z phoe: since you said you're judging the answer to be yes
2020-07-10T07:05:54Z easye: No, I agree that having CL:REVERSE return an unspecialized type for a specialized argument would be non-conforming.
2020-07-10T07:06:07Z phoe: OK then - I understand now
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2020-07-10T08:59:57Z Harag: is there way to limit a "method" to a funcion's scope?
2020-07-10T09:00:09Z phoe: what do you mean, a function's scope?
2020-07-10T09:00:19Z Harag: like you would use labels
2020-07-10T09:00:23Z Harag: for a function
2020-07-10T09:00:28Z phoe: don't think that's possible
2020-07-10T09:01:01Z Harag: ok is there a way to maybe swop out two methods and runtime and then swop them back with the mop?
2020-07-10T09:01:15Z phoe: sure, it is possible, but it does sound like a bit hassle
2020-07-10T09:01:25Z Harag: yes it
2020-07-10T09:01:27Z Harag: is
2020-07-10T09:01:45Z beach: Harag: Why don't you tell us what it is that you want to accomplish instead.
2020-07-10T09:01:51Z phoe: ^
2020-07-10T09:01:52Z Harag: I want to temporarily clobber a print-object method
2020-07-10T09:02:08Z phoe: I think you can use a custom pprint-dispatch for tat
2020-07-10T09:02:10Z phoe: that*
2020-07-10T09:02:44Z Harag: yeah but I want to clobber it for readability not pretty print
2020-07-10T09:03:29Z beach: Heh, you need the "Incless" library that is not finished yet, but that would allow you to play tricks like that.
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2020-07-10T09:04:28Z Harag: beach: so in theory how would Incless do it?
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2020-07-10T09:12:37Z Harag: is incless taking over printing "control" using shadowing and then giving its own implementation?
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2020-07-10T09:24:04Z beach: Harag: Incless is meant to be an implementation-independent printer.
2020-07-10T09:24:25Z beach: So the print-object methods trampoline to a generic function print-object-using-client.
2020-07-10T09:24:48Z beach: And the latter takes a CLIENT object in addition to the object and the stream.
2020-07-10T09:25:18Z beach: So you would put a method on print-object-using-client with a client that alters the printing as you want.
2020-07-10T09:25:49Z phoe: beach: is the default client dynamically rebindable?
2020-07-10T09:25:52Z beach: Then when you want the altered behavior, you bind INCLESS:*CLIENT* to the one that behaves like that.
2020-07-10T09:26:01Z phoe: like, (let ((incless:*default-client* (make-my-client))) (print-stuff))
2020-07-10T09:26:02Z beach: Yes, exactly.
2020-07-10T09:26:03Z phoe: oh
2020-07-10T09:26:04Z phoe: yes
2020-07-10T09:27:02Z beach: I think we (collectively) are getting the hang of creating implementation-independent libraries. :)
2020-07-10T09:27:31Z beach: Eclector, Trucler, Cleavir, first-class global environments, ...
2020-07-10T09:31:15Z phoe: ha
2020-07-10T09:31:38Z phoe: you don't need to make a fancy name for first-class global environment because "class" already contains the "cl" substring that is required
2020-07-10T09:32:00Z beach: Too late.  It will be called "Clostrum".
2020-07-10T09:32:08Z phoe: oh
2020-07-10T09:32:38Z beach: It's an alternative spelling of "claustrum" which means an enclosed space.
2020-07-10T09:32:58Z beach: As in "claustrophobia" etc.
2020-07-10T09:35:33Z flip214 is reminded of colostrum......   sorry about that
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2020-07-10T09:56:28Z beach: flip214: "reminded"?  I think you just did a Google search.
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2020-07-10T10:30:07Z flip214: beach: no. My wife is a nurse, and daughter is becoming one, so I'm hearing stuff like that a lot.
2020-07-10T10:31:31Z Harag: beach: i dont think Incless will work in ecl
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2020-07-10T10:31:43Z beach: Why is that?
2020-07-10T10:31:47Z Harag: I can get the shadow approach to work in sbcl
2020-07-10T10:31:50Z Harag: but not in ecl
2020-07-10T10:32:14Z beach: Who said anything about shadow?
2020-07-10T10:32:15Z Harag: ecl just ignores your overriding functions and calls its own
2020-07-10T10:32:42Z jackdaniel: if there is a problem with dynamic bindings please report a bug. unless you mean, that ecl inlines some functions?
2020-07-10T10:32:48Z jackdaniel: then you need to declare them notinline
2020-07-10T10:32:56Z Harag: mmm ok
2020-07-10T10:33:30Z phoe: Harag: which functions are you trying to shadow?
2020-07-10T10:33:59Z Harag: print-object
2020-07-10T10:34:01Z phoe: if you are trying to FLET/LABELS/MACROLET any function or macro or special operator from the CL package, it's undefined behavior
2020-07-10T10:34:04Z phoe: well then
2020-07-10T10:34:07Z phoe: that's not allowed
2020-07-10T10:34:20Z Harag: not doing it in labels etc
2020-07-10T10:34:27Z phoe: oh? how do you do it then?
2020-07-10T10:35:00Z Harag: just testing how incless does it
2020-07-10T10:35:10Z Harag: trying to understand
2020-07-10T10:35:22Z phoe: AFAIK incless defines its own #'incless:print-object
2020-07-10T10:35:42Z phoe: it's up to the implementation to hook that into its own printing system
2020-07-10T10:36:18Z phoe: just like eclector defines its own #'eclector.reader:read
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2020-07-10T10:54:45Z phoe: random note: today, I have removed the last TODO from my upcoming condition system book
2020-07-10T10:54:53Z beach: Great!
2020-07-10T10:55:07Z beach: The deadline was modified, no?
2020-07-10T10:55:12Z beach: Initially, it was very tight.
2020-07-10T10:55:14Z phoe: yes
2020-07-10T10:55:23Z phoe: it's been stretched a little bit, and I feel somewhat terrible for it
2020-07-10T10:55:38Z phoe: but it seems like after my editors have a go at the last bits of text I've introduced, it is ready to go into production
2020-07-10T10:55:54Z beach: Nah, don't worry about it.  They must be used to it.
2020-07-10T10:56:08Z phoe: I secretly hope that they are used to it
2020-07-10T10:56:24Z phoe: ;; and I feel even more terrible for exhibiting such hope
2020-07-10T10:56:25Z beach: Wow, they actually have editors read the stuff?  That is unusual these days.
2020-07-10T10:56:44Z phoe: beach: I actually got a very good one from Apress
2020-07-10T10:56:57Z beach: Excellent. Most publishing companies will print whatever you give them.
2020-07-10T10:57:31Z beach: And the average quality of published books is a proof of that.
2020-07-10T10:58:13Z phoe: I think that most of the heavy lifting has been done by the Lisp community though; digikar and gendl and heisig and adlai and splittist and SAL9000 and *way* *WAY* too many people to count here have done a #.most-positive-fixnum amount of work with beating my words into proper shape
2020-07-10T10:58:36Z beach: Nice!
2020-07-10T10:58:38Z SAL9000: thanks :-)
2020-07-10T10:58:53Z phoe: to the point where the editor from Apress didn't really have anything to do, save for restructuring the chapters in the way that is acceptable by Apress and noticing like two or three minor issues that weren't caught earlier
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2020-07-10T10:59:09Z SAL9000: (I really should get around to putting a reviewer blurb thing into that issue before it's too late)
2020-07-10T10:59:13Z phoe: so, frankly, the book's been edited by the Lisp community
2020-07-10T10:59:35Z phoe: and that fact brings a big ole smile to my face
2020-07-10T10:59:36Z phoe: SAL9000: yes you should
2020-07-10T10:59:43Z beach: Yeah, that's great.
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2020-07-10T11:02:46Z heisig: phoe: Congratulations on removing your last TODO!  I am very excited about this book.
2020-07-10T11:03:12Z phoe: heisig: <3
2020-07-10T11:03:27Z heisig: I secretly hope that other language designers will read it and adapt their languages accordingly :)
2020-07-10T11:03:34Z phoe: like, literally, the Hall of Fame section of my book is so fat that I am grinning just looking at it
2020-07-10T11:03:40Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1949#1949
2020-07-10T11:04:11Z phoe: and I bet $5 I am going to burn in shame because I forgot to add someone there
2020-07-10T11:04:21Z phoe: there's been just too many contributors
2020-07-10T11:04:28Z phoe: and I really really love that fact
2020-07-10T11:04:47Z SAL9000: ...That is a lot of people! <3
2020-07-10T11:05:42Z phoe: a lot lot lot of people
2020-07-10T11:06:28Z SAL9000: so long as it isn't "alot" of people http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
2020-07-10T11:07:19Z phoe: SAL9000: you made me open the book and nervously do a C-s alot
2020-07-10T11:07:39Z SAL9000: :-)
2020-07-10T11:07:54Z TMA: "alot
2020-07-10T11:08:57Z SAL9000: I assume CLCS is free from alot infestation?
2020-07-10T11:09:03Z phoe: yes
2020-07-10T11:09:09Z SAL9000 readies the heavy flamer and exterminator's suit just in case
2020-07-10T11:09:17Z TMA: " is a fine verb though. phoe, do not be concerned if you find it (in the verb position)
2020-07-10T11:09:25Z phoe: I expected that it wouldn't contain any, but sweet golly my heart rate just jumped
2020-07-10T11:09:41Z phoe: like, just in case
2020-07-10T11:09:58Z SAL9000: Always better to double-check. Sorry about panicking you that much
2020-07-10T11:11:40Z phoe: no, it was a good kind of panic
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2020-07-10T11:19:45Z beach: phoe: That is a very impressive list.  You got comments even from Kent Pitman?
2020-07-10T11:23:49Z phoe: beach: *SOMEHOW*, I did.
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2020-07-10T11:24:00Z phoe: He's a busybusybusy person so it took a lot of work, but I got some, yes.
2020-07-10T11:24:17Z beach: Oh, you asked him?  Great!
2020-07-10T11:25:14Z phoe: yep
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2020-07-10T12:25:01Z lonjil: Harag: Incless uses the CL package but shadows the standard printing related symbols. Thus, Incless can have its own symbols with the same names. This should work on all CL implementations.
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2020-07-10T12:36:10Z lonjil: phoe: for implementations that want to use Incless, I believe that we are actually going to have a separate system and package that uses CL into Incless but without shadowing.
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2020-07-10T12:39:00Z phoe: lonjil: oh! I see
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2020-07-10T13:47:28Z chrnybo: I usually work in latin-1, now I need unicode.  Connecting to lispworks with slime, and (code-char 3459) gives expected result in the repl.
2020-07-10T13:47:52Z chrnybo: (write (code-char 3459)) on the other hand, fails with:
2020-07-10T13:48:30Z chrnybo: Error (TYPE-ERROR) during printing: #<TYPE-ERROR 40200D4A1B>
2020-07-10T13:48:31Z chrnybo:  
2020-07-10T13:48:54Z phoe: hah
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2020-07-10T13:48:57Z chrnybo: Care to teach me how to resolve=
2020-07-10T13:49:05Z phoe: let me try to reproduce
2020-07-10T13:50:13Z phoe: (print (code-char 3459)) works for me in the listener for LispWorks 7.1.2 Personal
2020-07-10T13:50:18Z phoe: don't know about slime
2020-07-10T13:52:10Z chrnybo: In a plain terminal, starting lispworks console, I get #\U+0D83.  Not so bad.
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2020-07-10T13:57:41Z phoe: this looks like a slime error
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2020-07-10T14:00:47Z phoe: something in slime seems to expect that the code-char 3459 is a base-char
2020-07-10T14:00:48Z phoe: and it's not
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2020-07-10T14:01:19Z phoe: you could also try asking the lisp-hug mailgrou
2020-07-10T14:01:20Z phoe: p
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2020-07-10T14:25:03Z chrnybo: phoe: thanks for the hint on base-char, I'll resort to utputting to a file that I open with additional keys :external-format '(:utf-8 :eol-style :lf) :element-type 'character
2020-07-10T14:25:44Z chrnybo: The resulting stream takes unicode characters.
2020-07-10T14:27:13Z phoe: good
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2020-07-10T16:03:45Z tychoish: are there implementations that have reasonable cross-compiulation support/tooling, if I wanted to, say produce a darwin build on a linux system?
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2020-07-10T16:08:39Z phoe: tychoish: it's an answer to an orthogonal question, but I use Travis to actually build my stuff for me on three OSes - see https://github.com/phoe-trash/furcadia-post-splitter/blob/master/.travis.yml
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2020-07-10T16:20:37Z adlai just fixed a chanl bug that has been pending for... nearly five years
2020-07-10T16:21:23Z adlai: it'd be awesome if anyone is able to confirm whether my fix works on their system as well
2020-07-10T16:25:06Z tychoish: adlai: nice!
2020-07-10T16:25:33Z tychoish: phoe: yeah, that's sort of the fall back solution, but I have an old laptop that I can hook up
2020-07-10T16:27:10Z adlai: if anyone wants to test: the official repository [in zkat's github account] still has the buggy code, and my version https://github.com/adlai/chanl/commit/a030296 has the fix
2020-07-10T16:30:19Z tychoish: adlai: I just used chanl for the first time last week, and really liked it (also hillariously zkat when to college with my partner, so its all very small world)
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2020-07-10T16:30:55Z adlai: hilariously enough, zkat abandoned common lisp, and left me to maintain the projects >:(
2020-07-10T16:31:21Z tychoish: :( I'm glad you did though :)
2020-07-10T16:32:02Z adlai: jackdaniel: w.r.t. the :arguments bug, it appears to have already been reported
2020-07-10T16:32:35Z adlai ponders whether to attack the part of chanl that uses :arguments, or first see how difficult it'll be to get this working on ECL
2020-07-10T16:33:32Z adlai: this specific part of chanl is, as far as I can tell, not yet used anywhere else; it implements a method combination that builds a call to chanl's select macro, out of the applicable methods
2020-07-10T16:34:54Z Bike: you have a method combination that actually uses :arguments?
2020-07-10T16:36:05Z adlai: ehehe yes, it is defined and used in https://github.com/adlai/chanl/blob/master/src/actors.lisp
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2020-07-10T16:36:21Z Bike: aw man, i might have to get that working then...
2020-07-10T16:37:17Z adlai: The code in that file is intentionally in a separate package, and it has not yet been documented, because the tests are quite rudimentary.
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2020-07-10T16:40:52Z adlai: I've been using an earlier version of this in scalpl for a while. Maybe I should first update that to use the latest version.
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2020-07-10T16:59:21Z Bike: what's the "fix me! def mac r/o"
2020-07-10T16:59:35Z phoe: a cry for help
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2020-07-10T17:00:26Z adlai: the missing macro actually already exists, in closer2mop
2020-07-10T17:00:38Z Bike: yeah but what is it
2020-07-10T17:00:56Z Bike: like a macro to classify the methods without using the define-method-combination mechanism?
2020-07-10T17:01:16Z adlai: a macro that assembles the standard method according to qualifiers
2020-07-10T17:01:45Z Bike: i don't understand. what's the c2mop macro?
2020-07-10T17:01:47Z adlai: at this point, The Right Thing is probably to have a separate chanl/actors system, that depends on closer2mop
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2020-07-10T17:03:54Z adlai: hmm, no, it's in a different library: https://github.com/sellout/method-combination-utilities/blob/master/src/definition-helpers.lisp
2020-07-10T17:04:51Z Bike: and you'd be using wrap-primary-form, since you have send and recv as well?
2020-07-10T17:05:34Z adlai: correct
2020-07-10T17:06:33Z adlai: meanwhile, it appears that chanl has an unrelated bug, that happens only on SBCL
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2020-07-10T17:11:20Z adlai: it is actually a little baffling that this test passes on CCL!
2020-07-10T17:12:25Z adlai: this should not be implementation-dependent behavior >_<
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2020-07-10T17:18:41Z adlai: ahh, wonderful, it is deterministic, just has an implementation-dependent failure probability
2020-07-10T17:20:08Z phoe: (defvar *failure-probability #+sbcl 0.1 #+ccl 0.3 #+ecl 0.02 #-(or sbcl ccl ecl) (error "Failures not supported."))
2020-07-10T17:21:28Z adlai: itym #-(or sbcl ccl ecl) 1
2020-07-10T17:21:43Z adlai hands phoe a missing earmuff, too
2020-07-10T17:21:48Z phoe: thanks
2020-07-10T17:21:51Z phoe: adlai: no, it's not 1
2020-07-10T17:22:03Z phoe: it cannot be 1 because we do not support failures on this implementation
2020-07-10T17:22:08Z adlai: wonderful, adding a (sleep 0.5) before the failing test causes it to pass 100/100 times on both implementations
2020-07-10T17:22:13Z phoe: therefore we signal an error instead of returning a meaningful value
2020-07-10T17:22:25Z phoe: adlai: oh! it's the ugliest sort of errors then
2020-07-10T17:22:55Z adlai: I'm quite certain that this specific test should pass even without that sleep, though. It should not matter in this case which thread is started first, because they should synchronize.
2020-07-10T17:22:58Z jackdaniel: #+#.(random-elt '(ccl ecl sbcl))(error "surprise")
2020-07-10T17:23:05Z jackdaniel: adlai: thanks, I'll look into it
2020-07-10T17:23:21Z phoe: jackdaniel: risky
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2020-07-10T17:23:39Z adlai: jackdaniel: I glanced at SBCL's code for the :arguments feature, and it is quite gnarly
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2020-07-10T17:23:59Z jackdaniel: method combinations as specified are (suposedly) impossible to implement fully, i don't remember details
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2020-07-10T17:24:40Z jackdaniel: afk
2020-07-10T17:24:41Z adlai: clhs 3.4.10
2020-07-10T17:24:41Z specbot: Define-method-combination Arguments Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dj.htm
2020-07-10T17:25:05Z adlai: the one and only place where 3.4.10 lambda lists can appear, is in the :arguments argument
2020-07-10T17:27:12Z adlai: well this is a nasty gotcha: &whole means slightly different things in d-m-c and defmacro lambda lists
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2020-07-10T17:30:23Z Bike: you also can't just hand the list of arguments to a destructuring-bind or anything, it does different things depending on the generic function's lambda list
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2020-07-10T17:57:30Z Harag: lonjil: thanx, I figured it out eventually... my confusion came from doing stuff in the repl and not a package, I clobbering sbcl's print-object for hash tables, and got print functions it to run my version, which then decided if it wanted to deal with it or pass it on to sbcl... ecl would not let me clobber the method.
2020-07-10T17:58:30Z phoe: Harag: REPL has a package too
2020-07-10T17:59:59Z Harag: yes
2020-07-10T18:00:03Z Harag: :P
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2020-07-10T18:01:42Z Harag: well at least I got to read some sbcl code and possible learned something ;)
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2020-07-10T19:39:11Z asarch: One stupid question: what is a sequence?
2020-07-10T19:39:37Z asarch: (gtk:gtk-builder-connect-signals) needs a sequence as its second argument
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2020-07-10T19:45:37Z adlai: minion: tell asarch about clhs 17.1
2020-07-10T19:45:38Z minion: asarch: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
2020-07-10T19:45:42Z adlai: clhs 17.1
2020-07-10T19:45:42Z specbot: Sequence Concepts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_a.htm
2020-07-10T19:46:06Z asarch: She is not happy today
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2020-07-10T20:11:12Z asarch: (gtk-builder-connect-signals-auto builder #.(find-package '#:gtk-demo))?
2020-07-10T20:11:39Z theseb: SICP made an interesting point...I was wondering why i don't see the use of DSLs being more widespread......SICP said if you look more carefully....many programs in other languages can be interpreted as evaluators and/or DSLs.....So the whole world may not being doing DSLs in lisp but roughly speaking they *are* creating lots of DSLs in an ad hoc manner in all kinds of languages yes?
2020-07-10T20:12:03Z theseb: so this lisp idea actual did "win"
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2020-07-10T20:13:06Z phoe: theseb: there's tons of ideas that originated in Lisp and then "won"
2020-07-10T20:13:20Z phoe: for instance, have you heard of the IF/THEN/ELSE statement?
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2020-07-10T20:14:29Z theseb: phoe: right...and garbage collection and lots of other stuff
2020-07-10T20:14:48Z phoe: all the way to symbolic macro systems that have made their way into Nim and Rust and wherever else
2020-07-10T20:14:49Z theseb: dynamic typing
2020-07-10T20:15:15Z phoe: What Made Lisp Different makes a decent list, if you can stand pg's proselytizing approach
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2020-07-10T20:20:47Z edgar-rft: my fingers are not fast enough for dynamic typing :-(
2020-07-10T20:20:57Z phoe: too dynamic for you?
2020-07-10T20:21:04Z phoe: try DECLARE TYPE
2020-07-10T20:21:38Z edgar-rft: I tried using a dynamo but it didn't work
2020-07-10T20:21:55Z theseb: phoe: how many developers will say...."doing DSLS sounds unwise and weird"...but then not realize every time they make a python/Rust/C/C++/Java program that processes structured inputs...they are themselves making all manner of "DSLs"
2020-07-10T20:22:12Z theseb: phoe: they don't realize what they're doing
2020-07-10T20:22:50Z phoe: theseb: I kind of don't think that approaching this issue from the position of superiority where Lispers know what they're doing and non-Lispers don't know what they're doing is going to achieve much
2020-07-10T20:23:11Z phoe: it might be beneficial to write some informative blogposts, or perhaps give a talk on the topic
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2020-07-10T20:23:39Z phoe: but starting the argument with "they don't know what they're doing" is IMO borderline delusional
2020-07-10T20:24:56Z phoe: it's true that the tools define what's possible with them, but I wouldn't treat all programmers who achieve amazing things with Rust/Python/Java++ as blind, nor I would disregard all the work that goes into perfecting their tools and knowledge
2020-07-10T20:27:47Z theseb: phoe: i didn't mean they weren't smart and didn't know stuff....i just meant they weren't *self-aware* of the fact they were doing DSLs as well
2020-07-10T20:29:16Z phoe: a DSL outside Lisp is very often called a "framework"
2020-07-10T20:29:24Z phoe: and a lot of these people are very aware that they are doing frameworks
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2020-07-10T20:36:00Z theseb: phoe: ah yes...nice observation.....it is true i've heard about "frameworks" all my career
2020-07-10T20:36:09Z theseb: i can see how frameworks == DSLs..yes
2020-07-10T20:36:25Z theseb: see ...why did i need you to point that out?
2020-07-10T20:36:35Z phoe: a framework is a construction built atop the base language to ease some frequently used functionalities and make some other functionalities possible at all
2020-07-10T20:36:43Z phoe: while a DSL is a construction built atop the base language to ease some frequently used functionalities and make some other functionalities possible at all
2020-07-10T20:37:19Z phoe: it's just that the two terms are often used in culturally exclusive environments, so it is not trivial to make the parallel
2020-07-10T20:38:11Z theseb: yea
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2020-07-10T20:46:45Z scymtym: a DSL built within/on top off a general purpose programming language is often called an internal DSL. this is in contrast to DSLs that are built with specialized tools such as language workbenches
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2020-07-10T21:14:38Z tychoish: adlai: I ran the chanl tests locally from your branch, a few RACING cases failed, but they also maybe failed on master, so I'm not sure :/
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2020-07-10T21:23:21Z rgherdt: b
2020-07-10T21:23:56Z rgherdt: oops, sorry, hit a key by mistake
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2020-07-10T21:29:39Z adlai: tychoish: (format () "~{~^~A~}" (mapcar 'funcall '(lisp-implementation-type lisp-implementation-version machine-type machine-version)))
2020-07-10T21:30:32Z adlai: er, "~{~A~^ ~}" is the correct format string there
2020-07-10T21:31:50Z adlai: tychoish: thank you for the report, though. I'll take a closer look at the issues tomorrow... perhaps I'll write a test case that reports the exact state of the deadlock
2020-07-10T21:33:24Z tychoish: adlai "SBCL 2.0.3 X86-64 Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-7600U CPU @ 2.80GHz"
2020-07-10T21:35:00Z adlai: tychoish: forgive my ignorance, but just double-checking: how many cores is that ?
2020-07-10T21:35:26Z adlai got the racing tests passing in a dual-core machine, maybe that has more?
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2020-07-10T21:42:50Z tychoish: https://gist.github.com/tychoish/77e28c3696a276ef671a2eb0ee2b570f it's 4 logical cores, I think 2 real cores (it's a laptop 2017 lenovo x1 carbon running arch linux)
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2020-07-10T22:48:13Z Harag: defsetf arranges for the temporary variables to be optimized out of the final result in cases where that is possible.
2020-07-10T22:48:43Z Harag: this causes sbcl to report "deleting unreachable code"
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2020-07-11T03:15:04Z shangul: On ARM, Common Lisp code is at least about 4x slower than C. I tried SBCL, CLISP, GCL and CCL.
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2020-07-11T03:38:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-07-11T03:42:43Z beach: shangul: That is most likely due to the maintainers of the Common Lisp implementations spending less time on optimizing the code generation for ARM than the time they spent on x86.
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2020-07-11T03:49:27Z shangul: beach, Good morning :)
2020-07-11T03:49:33Z shangul: beach, You might be right...
2020-07-11T03:51:19Z beach: The people working on C and C++ compilers have truly huge amounts of money and a huge number of people working on that stuff.  SBCL has maybe 5 people working as volunteers.
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2020-07-11T13:25:14Z Xach feels the excitement!
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2020-07-11T13:28:20Z jackdaniel: because people stopped talking, so they probably code? :)
2020-07-11T13:34:02Z Xach: I hope to coax out a new Quicklisp dist release today
2020-07-11T13:34:49Z beach: Congratulations!
2020-07-11T13:35:38Z jackdaniel: fingers crossed!
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2020-07-11T13:48:42Z Xach: so very crossed
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2020-07-11T18:17:27Z SAL9000: Silly question, perhaps, but has there been work on porting something like the Common Lisp pretty-printing system to C++?
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2020-07-11T18:21:06Z dlowe: The intersection of people who care about Common Lisp pretty printing and the people who want to do a complex, involved pretty-printing system in C++ is vanishingly small.
2020-07-11T18:21:41Z dlowe: Thank goodness SPICE lisp had money and people for a while
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2020-07-11T18:26:44Z tychoish: https://github.com/clasp-developers/clasp I feel like those folks are the right place to start, but I don't actually knowe about any more specifics
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2020-07-11T18:29:28Z Bike: we haven't ported the lisp pretty printing system to C++, since if we want to pretty print from C++ we can just call the lisp functions.
2020-07-11T18:29:50Z Bike: also the lisp pretty printer is based pretty heavily on both special variables and runtime type discrimination, neither of which are all that C++
2020-07-11T18:32:07Z tychoish: Bike are you a clasp human?
2020-07-11T18:32:19Z Bike: i am a developer on clasp.
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2020-07-11T18:33:15Z edgar-rft: you "only" need to implement Common Lisp in C++ and you have pretty-printing for free :-)
2020-07-11T18:34:14Z tychoish: Nice! (sorry, I'm newish here so I don't really know people yet, and Ididn't mean to speak for you, just seemed like the right connections, seems like a cool project. :))
2020-07-11T18:34:23Z Bike: no worries.
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2020-07-11T18:40:53Z SAL9000: dlowe, Bike: long story short, $work involves maintaining a very complex system where I end up missing the CL pretty-print features. I was thinking that maybe someone had already done something similar that I could get inspiration from.
2020-07-11T18:41:23Z Bike: which features do you have in mind? because when i think of the pretty printer i think of things like indenting LET blocks correctly, which you're probably not worried about
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2020-07-11T18:42:35Z SAL9000: To be clear, I'm thinking about the low-level pretty-print infrastructure which is driven by http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_ppr_fi.htm et. al.
2020-07-11T18:43:57Z Bike: oh, that stuff. well i can tell you clasp implements those in lisp, and we got it from ecl so there's probably nothing there either.
2020-07-11T18:44:20Z SAL9000: I have a whole lot of data structures, and almost all of them have a virtual char* toString() {} which I'd love to use those things in
2020-07-11T18:45:30Z SAL9000: any ideas on how to handle the contextual information (current column, etc.) in a sane way?
2020-07-11T18:46:07Z SAL9000: I know how to implement the actual pretty-printing itself, it's making it fit into the C++ model that is more troublesome :(
2020-07-11T18:58:06Z p_l would place bets how soon SAL9000 would use thread-local globals or just plain globals for a bunch of things but it would be sucker's bet
2020-07-11T18:58:46Z SAL9000: p_l: it's that or virtual char* toString2(PPrintEnv* env = null) {}
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2020-07-11T18:59:26Z p_l: SAL9000: for reasons of "Python can't into scope" I have way too many "global <something>" :|
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2020-07-11T19:00:17Z SAL9000: don't Python globals only need that if you have a local with the same name?
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2020-07-11T19:02:06Z p_l: SAL9000: I found out empirically that I could not trust symbol resolution from inside a function/method
2020-07-11T19:02:07Z p_l: :|
2020-07-11T19:02:11Z SAL9000: :(
2020-07-11T19:02:31Z p_l: also dealing with lack of restarts
2020-07-11T19:02:49Z SAL9000: having helped phoe with CLCS I miss those in both C++ and Python even more now
2020-07-11T19:04:24Z p_l: I run so many functions inside loops now that have try/catch block inside in order to restart thing :|
2020-07-11T19:04:52Z SAL9000: maybe you can do some unholy tricks with nested functions and @decorators?
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2020-07-11T19:18:59Z p_l: some stuff is handled by decorator from a library called "retry" :|
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2020-07-11T20:02:35Z Xach: i hoped in vain, some weird problems in today's dist building.
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2020-07-12T01:09:40Z kc5tja: Hello; I'm a new-comer to Common Lisp (using SBCL).  I'm attempting to make a macro which synthesizes a keyword symbol from two strings.  For example, if I have two strings ABC and DEF, I'd like to create a keyword :ABCDEF.
2020-07-12T01:10:10Z kc5tja: Nothing I've tried so far seems to work (make-symbol...) (eval (format nil ":~A~A"...)) etc.
2020-07-12T01:10:13Z kc5tja: Any ideas?
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2020-07-12T01:28:09Z tychoish: kc5tja: I think you can do something weird interning (intern "thing" "KEYWORD")
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2020-07-12T01:31:08Z dlowe: no macro required, even
2020-07-12T01:31:45Z tychoish: true!
2020-07-12T01:32:28Z kc5tja: Ahh, sweet!  I wasn't aware that intern took a package parameter.  Just looked it up on the hyperspec.  I think this will do the trick.  Thanks!!
2020-07-12T01:36:23Z kc5tja: dlowe: Well, I was trying to minimize the scope of the problem I'm running into.  The macro is to replace a (when) form intended to dispatch on keycode handling in a cl-sdl2 game I'm trying to write.  And failing.  hard.
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2020-07-12T01:41:07Z dlowe: kc5tja: use macroexpand-1 to expand your new macro and then debug that code :) good luck.
2020-07-12T01:43:58Z kc5tja: I did that; it is textually the same.  This is what baffles me.
2020-07-12T01:44:31Z tychoish: why are you trying to replace a when form?
2020-07-12T01:44:39Z kc5tja: I'm going to meditate on this over a sub sandwich.  I'm positive it's going to be something really silly.
2020-07-12T01:44:42Z kc5tja: :)
2020-07-12T01:45:03Z kc5tja: There are going to be numerous when forms, all structurally similar.
2020-07-12T01:45:13Z kc5tja: I don't really *have* to, but I just think it cleans up the code.
2020-07-12T01:46:28Z tychoish: I'd use conds or switches?
2020-07-12T01:47:57Z kc5tja: tychoish: I think it'd still be highly repetitive.  See https://github.com/sam-falvo/equilibrium-cl/blob/master/eql.lisp#L116-L124
2020-07-12T01:49:04Z kc5tja: brb; grabbing food.  Thanks all for looking and helping.  It is appreciated!
2020-07-12T01:51:10Z tychoish: I wouldn't try and refactor so soon/early in a process. also if key events are objects, I'd just write methods and the dispatcher handle the low level stuff
2020-07-12T01:51:37Z tychoish: disclaimer: I'm just a guy, and also something of a newb myself, there might be better idioms for this too.
2020-07-12T01:53:51Z White_Flame: kc5tja: "scancode-~a" vs "SCANCODE-~a" is likely your problem
2020-07-12T01:54:29Z White_Flame: (symbol-name :scancode-w) shows that the actual interned string has been uppercased, which is the reader's default behavior as it consumes your source code
2020-07-12T01:55:00Z White_Flame: manually interning a string does not change its case
2020-07-12T01:55:32Z White_Flame: tychoish: multiple keys could be pressed for diagonals, while a COND would only process the first one matched
2020-07-12T01:55:51Z tychoish: oh good call
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2020-07-12T01:56:15Z White_Flame: ah, although this might be edge triggered and dealing with 1 key event at a time, so you might be right
2020-07-12T01:56:47Z tychoish: it sure looks like the cond/when thing would be equivalent in that regard
2020-07-12T01:57:15Z tychoish: I also haven't really done this kind of event-based thing ever
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2020-07-12T02:37:42Z kc5tja: White_Flame: Yes! That was the issue!  Thank you for pointing that out.
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2020-07-12T03:19:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-07-12T03:34:02Z adlai: perfect timing, beach, I have just poured myself my first mug of coffee
2020-07-12T03:35:23Z beach: Good!  I am working on one myself.
2020-07-12T03:36:25Z adlai wonders at the marvels of ASDF fasl translations, that have caused fresh bugs to appear upon reboot
2020-07-12T03:37:18Z adlai wonders why ASDF has no force-compile restart
2020-07-12T03:38:37Z adlai: e.g., in this case, I "fixed the bug" by doing a force-compile-system on the specific system in which the error was signalled, followed by a regular load-op on the initially loaded system,
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2020-07-12T03:43:36Z White_Flame: I presonally use rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl*/home/white-flame/git
2020-07-12T03:43:52Z White_Flame: which keeps all the quicklisp fasls intact
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2020-07-12T03:49:27Z adlai: the error message seemed to suggest that there was some fasl without an in-package form at its start; I was getting a failure to find a symbol, with a name from the internals of a dependency project, in the package that I had at the SLIME REPL
2020-07-12T03:50:34Z shangul: lispshell.surge.sh <- A free shell server with many CL implementations and related tools installed.
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2020-07-12T03:54:54Z adlai is puzzled at how a static CDN can deliver shell access?
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2020-07-12T03:56:13Z adlai: oh, that page is just the contact info for requesting shell access >_<
2020-07-12T03:57:10Z adlai: shangul: you are using that service for your experiments, instead of running CL locally?
2020-07-12T03:58:09Z adlai should probably not request an account, since he arguably is past the "wants to learn programming" stage, having reached the "regrets ever learning" stage
2020-07-12T04:00:03Z shangul: adlai, For experiments, unless I they are ARM specific, I use my laptop. But not always I have my laptop with myself.
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2020-07-12T04:01:25Z shangul: Also this is for people other than myself. Installing SLIME in Windows is not easy and straightforward. Also users can try this before actually running Linux on their computer with other tools installed.
2020-07-12T04:02:44Z shangul: adlai, Another usage of my server is bypassing firewall blocks. I run sshd on port 443 instead of 22. So you can connect to it from anywhere(sometimes port 22 on some internet connections for example in hotels is blocked)
2020-07-12T04:03:20Z shangul: You can connect to my server and from there connect to anywhere you want.
2020-07-12T04:03:49Z adlai: minion: portacle?
2020-07-12T04:03:49Z minion: portacle: Portacle is a complete IDE for Common Lisp that you can take with you on a USB stick https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/
2020-07-12T04:04:01Z shangul: hmm
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2020-07-12T04:05:12Z shangul: adlai, nice!
2020-07-12T04:05:21Z adlai: one last clarification question, and then if I have further questions, I'd rather discuss this issue in PM to unclutter the channel logs:
2020-07-12T04:05:24Z shangul: I am emailing this to my friend
2020-07-12T04:05:43Z shangul: adlai, feel free to PM me.
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2020-07-12T04:06:18Z adlai: the "soft limits" that are outlined in that landing page include a total CPU time, is that per a certain denominator of wall clock time, or total total that you can ever use?
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2020-07-12T04:10:05Z adlai: thank you for the offer to PM
2020-07-12T04:10:58Z shangul: I am not sure but I think it is the time which you can use 100% of CPU. After you reach the limit, the CPU usage of your processes will reduce but they won't get stopped. Let me ask in ##linux to make sure.
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2020-07-12T04:31:39Z adlai: aha, there is indeed no call to cl:in-package at the start of chanl's shim src/trivial-cas.lisp
2020-07-12T04:33:18Z adlai wonders what to do about this, since the shim is currently loaded ~before~ the package.lisp
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2020-07-12T08:08:29Z shangul: Has anyone got a lisp related domain so that they can give me a subdomain?
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2020-07-12T08:21:31Z z3t0: shangul: I don't have one. But just curious, what are you planning on using it for?
2020-07-12T08:21:48Z shangul: z3t0, lispshell.surge.sh
2020-07-12T08:25:00Z z3t0: Ah, that's a really amazing initiative! Thank you for doing it.
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2020-07-12T09:42:23Z jackdaniel: is there a way to create a reference to the  forward-referenced-class without calling (defclass foo (forward-class) ()) and accessing superclasses of foo?
2020-07-12T09:43:15Z jackdaniel: (it's not super important, I'm just curious)
2020-07-12T09:44:54Z beach: You should be able to use the underlying infrastructure.  Like ensure-class, or make-instance in the worst case.
2020-07-12T09:46:17Z jackdaniel: ah, right, and that even works, thank you :)
2020-07-12T09:46:21Z jackdaniel: (defvar *xxx* (c2mop:ensure-class 'foo :metaclass 'c2mop:forward-referenced-class))
2020-07-12T09:46:31Z beach: Anytime. :)
2020-07-12T09:46:32Z jackdaniel: (eq *xxx* (defclass foo () ())) ;-> T
2020-07-12T09:47:05Z jackdaniel: I didn't think about it because I thought that this would be non-conforming, but otoh why would it be
2020-07-12T09:47:20Z beach: Yeah, no reason.
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2020-07-12T15:54:26Z Xach: well
2020-07-12T15:54:50Z Xach: it turns out my builds were failing because i could not require sb-posix at .asd load time
2020-07-12T15:54:53Z Xach: fixed!
2020-07-12T15:55:41Z tychoish: \o/
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2020-07-12T18:57:22Z JohnTalent: Why isn't Lisp in the top 20 TIOBE? It's insanity.
2020-07-12T18:57:33Z bitmapper: it used to be
2020-07-12T18:57:36Z bitmapper: used to be #2
2020-07-12T18:57:50Z phoe: JohnTalent: USA DoD pulling out the plug
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2020-07-12T19:13:11Z aeth: JohnTalent: In short, TIOBE is possibly one of the least reliable metrics of programming language popularity. Unfortunately, TIOBE persists through the years, and the slightly-better websites with brutal takedowns of TIOBE's methodology do not.
2020-07-12T19:13:50Z tychoish: the surprising thing is that it was 6 in 2000, I suspect.
2020-07-12T19:13:53Z aeth: It's essentially an impossible task, and whichever subset you use will bias you towards different things, like educational software, commercial software, new/trendy web software (Github popularity), etc.
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2020-07-12T19:14:39Z aeth: On Github, JavaScript's the #1 language, in banks COBOL might still be the #1 language. How do you come up with something that reliably measures Github activity and bank activity? You don't. Especially banks.
2020-07-12T19:15:39Z tychoish: depends a lot on the bank.
2020-07-12T19:15:49Z aeth: Every field has its own language. Gamedev is a C++ monoculture, with a bit of Lua scripting sprinkled in. Microsoftland is full of C#, but nowhere else uses it. Machine learning is dominated by Python. There's no way to reliably measure cross-field use of programming language popularity, and do you even want to?
2020-07-12T19:16:47Z aeth: The languages you're forced to use for Android or iOS are probably pretty popular because of Android and iOS, but there's basically no reason to use them in environments where you get to choose.
2020-07-12T19:18:27Z aeth: In particular, TIOBE severely underestimates the popularity of JavaScript because it's mostly search-based, while sites that are e.g. Github based will probably overestimate it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19767961
2020-07-12T19:20:43Z aeth: IMO, the more useful metric of a language's popularity is the size of its library repositories -- in Common Lisp's case, Quicklisp. This will still hurt languages like COBOL or C# where commercial middleware is more of a thing and FOSS was adopted late, but if you're not willing to pay for commercial middleware, it's probably more useful to you the programmer.
2020-07-12T19:21:21Z aeth: It still won't quite work out *quite* right because JS culture prefers microlibraries like is-even.
2020-07-12T19:22:25Z aeth: (And some languages like Scheme require a few dozen libraries just to catch up with what CL ships with.)
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2020-07-12T19:27:06Z aeth: Btw, TIOBE contains entries both "Lisp" and "Common Lisp", and ranks Common Lisp substantially lower, which shows that it is completely clueless with respect to Lisp. There is no "Lisp", unless they want to suggest that LISP 1.5 is extremely more popular than Common Lisp.
2020-07-12T19:27:42Z aeth: s/both/for both/
2020-07-12T19:27:57Z bitmapper: ahh
2020-07-12T19:28:01Z bitmapper: this debate again
2020-07-12T19:28:20Z bitmapper: anyway, TIOBE is based on search engine results
2020-07-12T19:28:25Z aeth: Which means that TIOBE's basically just noise since Google locked down their algorithms and API a decade ago.
2020-07-12T19:28:38Z aeth: Google no longer gives you an accurate indication of results, and can't, really, since it's so customized.
2020-07-12T19:30:58Z aeth: And I can search a quote from a webpage, verbatim, in quotes, that I know exists and is indexed, and sometimes won't get the result. Google doesn't care for low volume searches, and often gives either you nothing or a completely irrelevant thing it thinks you meant.
2020-07-12T19:31:11Z aeth: s/either you/you either/
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2020-07-12T19:32:47Z aeth: The most entertaining thing, though, is searching for an error message and getting the source code file containing the error message as the only result.
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2020-07-12T19:38:39Z Josh_2: Hi all
2020-07-12T19:40:10Z phoe: heyy
2020-07-12T19:40:20Z Josh_2: Is there a way for me to define classes in a way that isn't at the top level?
2020-07-12T19:40:46Z Josh_2: the library jonathan requires classes in order to output json objects that aren't just arrays
2020-07-12T19:41:40Z Josh_2: the method %to-json is extended so I can output closs classes as JSON
2020-07-12T19:43:56Z rumbler31: you mean define classes at runtime?
2020-07-12T19:44:07Z rumbler31: or, later in compile time?
2020-07-12T19:44:18Z Josh_2: compile time I think
2020-07-12T19:47:54Z rumbler31: well I mean... when does it need to exist
2020-07-12T19:48:06Z rumbler31: do you have some example code you're trying to make work?
2020-07-12T19:50:20Z rumbler31: well so I mean, why do you need it not at the toplevel
2020-07-12T19:50:26Z rumbler31: what exactly do you mean by that
2020-07-12T19:50:42Z Josh_2: yes https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1952#1952 this almost works
2020-07-12T19:50:43Z rumbler31: are you needing to create new object definitions at runtime?
2020-07-12T19:50:44Z phoe: you can DEFCLASS anywhere you'd like, including IF branches and such
2020-07-12T19:51:30Z phoe: oooh, like that
2020-07-12T19:56:06Z Josh_2: eh
2020-07-12T19:56:19Z Josh_2: I don't think this is the best way to implement what I'm trying to do
2020-07-12T19:56:40Z Josh_2: I think I will just make a nice wrapper for defclass and defmethod and just write things out by hand oof
2020-07-12T19:57:04Z rumbler31: I've literally done this exact thing before, what do you think is wrong with it?
2020-07-12T19:58:04Z Josh_2: Well what I have done works for 1 level of class definitions
2020-07-12T19:58:30Z Josh_2: doesn't work with nested definitions
2020-07-12T19:58:38Z Josh_2: anyway I think I will try a different approach
2020-07-12T19:58:48Z Josh_2: Sorry for wasting y'alls time
2020-07-12T19:59:16Z rumbler31: wait, you mean that one member of a class is actually another class?
2020-07-12T20:00:07Z Josh_2: In the example *test* there is a list that looks like ("identifier" ("type" "m.id.user")("user" "cheeky-monkey")) this would be another class definition
2020-07-12T20:01:26Z Josh_2: so it would make another class associated with the name "identifier" with the two slots, and then the level above would have a slot definition like (identifier :type identifier :accessor identifier) if that makes sense
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2020-07-12T20:02:50Z pve: Josh_2: could you have just one class for everything with a properties slots?
2020-07-12T20:02:53Z rumbler31: right, I've done that too... you just need to call your list to class definition again, and store the defclass call in a list that gets evaluated later, or in whichever order you need to do
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2020-07-12T20:03:11Z Josh_2: rumbler31: well I could do it easy If I used eval
2020-07-12T20:03:13Z asarch: What can I do when I am evaluating a thread and something fails and it renders into the debug state of SBCL?
2020-07-12T20:03:17Z asarch: "#<THREAD "cl-cffi-gtk main thread" RUNNING {1007D01A43}>:"
2020-07-12T20:03:32Z rumbler31: don't need eval I don't think
2020-07-12T20:03:38Z asarch: If I press Ctrl+D in order to exit SBCL, it doesn't work
2020-07-12T20:03:59Z Josh_2: pve: I don't think I can do that because of the way the jonathan library creates JSON from instances of CLOS classes
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2020-07-12T20:05:03Z rumbler31: a function that goes through slots to detect slots that have a type field, and then sends that slot to to your list to class definition call, storing the results, right?
2020-07-12T20:06:07Z Josh_2: oof I could just preprocess the list looking for nested classes and defining them first
2020-07-12T20:06:17Z rumbler31: finally reversing the list of class definitions so that they are defined before they're used (if that's even necessary)
2020-07-12T20:06:28Z rumbler31: yes
2020-07-12T20:06:39Z Josh_2: this wont' have any effect on runtime speed so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-07-12T20:07:01Z Josh_2: okay I will try that
2020-07-12T20:07:12Z asarch: debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR in thread
2020-07-12T20:07:21Z asarch: #<THREAD "cl-cffi-gtk main thread" RUNNING {1007D08023}>:
2020-07-12T20:07:36Z asarch:   1 is not a string designator.
2020-07-12T20:07:48Z rumbler31: I got around this by instead of defining subclasses I just used the slot names as a new in place struct, but I just ran an expansion function that took the initial list and detected a new subtype list, and returned the results of the recursive call
2020-07-12T20:07:50Z asarch: The current thread is not at the foreground,
2020-07-12T20:08:04Z asarch: SB-THREAD:RELEASE-FOREGROUND has to be called in #<SB-THREAD:THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {10009C8083}>
2020-07-12T20:08:20Z asarch: for this thread to enter the debugger.
2020-07-12T20:08:28Z Josh_2: rumbler31: I think I will try something a long these lines
2020-07-12T20:08:48Z rumbler31: you might I guess want to be able to reuse subclasses in individual %to-json methods so that wont work for you
2020-07-12T20:08:50Z phoe: asarch: that's a type error
2020-07-12T20:09:02Z asarch: If I try to evaluate something, e.g. (sb-ext:exit), it simply doesn't work
2020-07-12T20:09:03Z phoe: go to that thread and check the backtrace to see where it blew up.
2020-07-12T20:09:09Z asarch: How?
2020-07-12T20:09:25Z Josh_2: I might just have to define some classes manually
2020-07-12T20:09:45Z phoe: asarch: are you using slime?
2020-07-12T20:09:57Z phoe: slime should install its own debugger hook so you get the backtrace in the slime debugger
2020-07-12T20:10:28Z asarch: No, SBCL directly from CLI: sbcl --load workspace.lisp
2020-07-12T20:11:29Z phoe: asarch: then do as you are told - call SB-THREAD:RELEASE-FOREGROUND from your main thread
2020-07-12T20:11:41Z phoe: once that's done, use the SBCL debugger to print the backtrace
2020-07-12T20:11:43Z phoe: and debug from there
2020-07-12T20:12:20Z asarch: (funcall SB-THREAD:RELEASE-FOREGROUND)?
2020-07-12T20:15:48Z phoe: (SB-THREAD:RELEASE-FOREGROUND)
2020-07-12T20:15:51Z phoe: in the main thread
2020-07-12T20:16:42Z asarch: Gotcha!
2020-07-12T20:16:44Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-07-12T20:17:06Z asarch: I usually type Ctrl+Z to "release" it :-P
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2020-07-12T20:31:47Z asarch: My log is corrupted :'-(
2020-07-12T20:31:55Z asarch: How do you convert 1 into "1"?
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2020-07-12T20:35:37Z Xach: asarch: so many ways
2020-07-12T20:35:48Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-07-12T20:35:51Z Xach: asarch: princ-to-string, prin1-to-string, format are a few
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2020-07-12T20:38:26Z asarch: I wonder why not just (string 1)
2020-07-12T20:38:56Z asarch: Anyway
2020-07-12T20:39:01Z phoe: because it doesn't work
2020-07-12T20:39:05Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-)
2020-07-12T20:39:15Z phoe: because #'CL:STRING accepts string designators, and a number isn't one
2020-07-12T20:39:31Z phoe: because who knows why
2020-07-12T20:40:13Z asarch: I know
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2020-07-12T20:40:46Z asarch: It is just, most of OO languages have the String object for string operations
2020-07-12T20:41:04Z asarch: let name = new String(12312);
2020-07-12T20:41:27Z phoe: in Lisp, this isn't as simple as that
2020-07-12T20:41:54Z phoe: things often can be printed in multiple ways, readably/unreadably, numeric settings for float, yadda yadda formatting stuff
2020-07-12T20:42:03Z phoe: prin1-to-string and princ-to-string is what you usually want
2020-07-12T20:42:35Z phoe: also, there's no "String object" in Lisp, and Lisp strings aren't standard objects that you can MAKE-INSTANCE of
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2020-07-12T20:50:07Z Bike: i don't think coercing things to strings has anything to do with object orientation.
2020-07-12T20:51:29Z phoe: ^
2020-07-12T20:53:46Z Bike: doing it with numbers is nontrivial. there's selection of base, whether you want a separator, some localization concerns like what you use for a separator, bla bla bla
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2020-07-12T20:55:02Z phoe: nah it's easy, you just do String number = new NumberStringBuilder(2).base(10).separator(',').decimalPlaces(4, 2, '0').build();
2020-07-12T20:55:38Z Bike: in java it would be toString, except i don't think that works with ints since they're not objects
2020-07-12T20:55:51Z phoe: new Integer(2);
2020-07-12T20:56:01Z Bike: oh, you do Integer.toString(whatever) instead of whatever.toString()
2020-07-12T20:56:13Z phoe: everything is a java object if you believe hard enough
2020-07-12T20:59:59Z aeth: In CL, there's very little special treatment for strings because most of the time, they're just treated as arrays or sequences instead.
2020-07-12T21:00:07Z aeth: Some languages can have very elaborate special treatment there.
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2020-07-12T21:01:25Z aeth: integer to string is pretty trivial most of the time
2020-07-12T21:01:35Z aeth: floating point to string is a nightmare
2020-07-12T21:02:35Z aeth: I usually use FORMAT to turn numbers into strings even in parts of code that otherwise stylistically don't use FORMAT. This, of course, assumes that the Lisp implementation correctly is handling the floating point issues.
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2020-07-12T21:02:58Z asarch: movl %eax, "This is a test!"
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2020-07-12T21:03:28Z Bike: that's not an actual runtime operation, your assembler just converts the string into bytes by whatever means.
2020-07-12T21:03:42Z Bike: i guess assemblers probably have to support unicode and stuff now? ech.
2020-07-12T21:04:17Z Bike: well, storing the address in the register might actually happen though.
2020-07-12T21:04:37Z phoe: movlcnvutf8utf16be %eax, "what the hell"
2020-07-12T21:05:09Z Bike: wasn't that the king of the north sea empire?
2020-07-12T21:05:53Z asarch: movl %ebx, "こんいちわ！"
2020-07-12T21:07:06Z asarch: brb!
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2020-07-12T21:28:55Z aeth: As far as Unicode goes, I personally prefer just adding in an "é" to see what happens.
2020-07-12T21:29:12Z aeth: The most wrong answer is if it uses an encoding that isn't Unicode, I guess
2020-07-12T21:29:28Z Bike: well that one's in latin-1
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2020-07-13T01:37:08Z kinope: Is there a way to load a local system with quicklisp where the name of the system definition file and the name of the system are different, in one step?
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2020-07-13T01:51:23Z z3t0: What are some good lisp oriented mailing lists to follow?
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2020-07-13T02:48:05Z asarch: How do you count from 1 to 5 quickly?
2020-07-13T02:50:35Z kinope: (loop for x from 1 to 5 do (format t "~a~%" x))
2020-07-13T02:52:47Z kinope: (loop with count = 0 repeat 5 do (print (incf count)))
2020-07-13T02:52:59Z asarch: Yessss!
2020-07-13T02:53:03Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-07-13T02:53:49Z kinope: asarch: Welcome
2020-07-13T02:54:01Z asarch: :-)
2020-07-13T02:54:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-07-13T02:55:44Z kinope: morning :)
2020-07-13T02:57:02Z asarch: Guten Tag, herr beach. Wie geht es Ihnen?
2020-07-13T02:58:26Z beach: Fine as usual, thanks.  I am trying to find a volunteer to extract and improve the code for first-class global environments into a separate library (named Clostrum).  But everyone is very busy it seems.
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2020-07-13T02:59:40Z beach: And I haven't heard whether someone suggested a presentation for the online Lisp meeting a week from now.  If not, I should finish part 2 of my "Creating a Common Lisp implementation" presentation series.
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2020-07-13T03:39:27Z z3t0: beach: is there somewhere I can find info about the meeting/presentation? Is it public?
2020-07-13T03:39:56Z beach: z3t0: It is public.  Hold on.  Let me see if I can find it.
2020-07-13T03:41:08Z beach: https://www.twitch.tv/TwitchPlaysCommonLisp
2020-07-13T03:42:21Z z3t0: thanks!
2020-07-13T03:42:25Z beach: Sure.
2020-07-13T03:42:56Z beach: Apparently, the presentations are available as recordings somewhere.
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2020-07-13T05:53:04Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCymtXMj1M7cKiV9TKLoTtEg
2020-07-13T05:53:07Z phoe: here they are
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2020-07-13T05:55:19Z beach: Hey phoe.  Any candidates for a week from now?
2020-07-13T05:57:05Z phoe: nope, but I have not been looking
2020-07-13T05:57:08Z phoe: I must look harder
2020-07-13T05:57:13Z phoe: I'll do that today
2020-07-13T05:57:46Z beach: OK.
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2020-07-13T05:59:57Z beach: If not, I can do it.  Part 2 is almost done.
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2020-07-13T08:02:50Z leedleLoo: Is the and type-specifier supposed to short-circuit like the and macro? I'm getting a memory error using a deftype which expands to '(and simple-string (satisfies my-unsafe-simple-string-predicate))
2020-07-13T08:06:15Z beach: No.
2020-07-13T08:07:12Z phoe: it isn't - it can be freely reordered
2020-07-13T08:07:18Z beach: Type specifiers can be canonicalized and simplified, so there is no such guarantee.
2020-07-13T08:07:20Z phoe: Lisp types are mathematical sets
2020-07-13T08:07:30Z phoe: in type specifier languages, (AND A B) === (AND B A)
2020-07-13T08:07:46Z phoe: and the implementation is allowed to freely leverage that fact to its advantage
2020-07-13T08:07:54Z phoe: s/languages/language/
2020-07-13T08:10:36Z leedleLoo: Thanks, that makes sense when compared to mathematical sets. I guess I'll have to move the type handling into the predicate then
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2020-07-13T08:46:52Z jackdaniel: in clim first type in and (for presentation types) has special treatment by the function accept
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2020-07-13T08:50:22Z phoe: jackdaniel: huh
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2020-07-13T09:19:34Z jackdaniel: phoe: also, you may treat class superclasses as a definition of type instersection, ala (and class-1 class-2 class-3)
2020-07-13T09:19:52Z jackdaniel: and similarily, the order matters when you compute the effective method
2020-07-13T09:20:38Z jackdaniel: (and a b c) could be interpreted as: it is all three, but first and foremost its a
2020-07-13T09:20:40Z jackdaniel: ;)
2020-07-13T09:20:50Z jackdaniel: s/its/it's/
2020-07-13T09:22:30Z phoe: ooooh
2020-07-13T09:23:02Z phoe: yes, correct! I was talking about types not classes though, so a slightly simpler topic
2020-07-13T09:23:20Z jackdaniel: you've talked generally about types
2020-07-13T09:23:35Z phoe: the big difference is the order of direct superclasses matters, whereas the order of sub-type specifiers in AND doesn't
2020-07-13T09:23:41Z jackdaniel: classes define type hierarchy, presentation types even more
2020-07-13T09:24:18Z jackdaniel: s/even more/too/
2020-07-13T09:27:20Z jackdaniel: for typep the order may not matter, however from the implementation perspective it is not unlikely that they are inspected from left to right and then it becomes debatable (i.e the type specifier satisfies may take longer to determine)
2020-07-13T09:29:02Z phoe: yes, but let's consider (and simple-string (satisfies foo))
2020-07-13T09:29:23Z phoe: FOO must not assume that its argument is a simple-string because the implementation is free to reorder AND
2020-07-13T09:29:45Z jackdaniel: yes
2020-07-13T09:30:02Z phoe: it's a weird choice because of what you mentioned, SATISFIES is expensive
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2020-07-13T09:30:06Z jackdaniel: I'm just picky about the s tatement, that "Lisp types are mathematical sets"
2020-07-13T09:30:06Z phoe: but nonetheless permitted
2020-07-13T09:30:16Z jackdaniel: statement*
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2020-07-13T09:31:10Z phoe: "A type is a (possibly infinite) set of objects."
2020-07-13T09:31:11Z jackdaniel: it is quasi-similar to a statement, that the order of operations in (* foo bar qux) does not matter
2020-07-13T09:31:18Z phoe: uh, no
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2020-07-13T09:31:28Z phoe: the rules of evaluation are well-specified
2020-07-13T09:31:39Z phoe: there's no such rule for type specifiers
2020-07-13T09:31:42Z jackdaniel: yes, but from "mathematical" sense the result will be always the same
2020-07-13T09:31:48Z jackdaniel: s/from/in/
2020-07-13T09:32:12Z phoe: oh, yes, I see
2020-07-13T09:32:29Z jackdaniel: same for type predicates, from "mathematical" sense the order of clauses in AND is not relevant, however in computer languages it /probably/ is
2020-07-13T09:32:44Z jackdaniel: or, "it may be"
2020-07-13T09:32:51Z phoe: correct
2020-07-13T09:34:18Z phoe: it's just that there's no guarantee that, in complex type specifiers such as OR or AND, the SATISFIES sub-type-specifiers are checked last
2020-07-13T09:34:37Z phoe: which makes (and simple-string (satisfies foo)) somewhat counter-intuitive I guess
2020-07-13T09:34:42Z jackdaniel: sure
2020-07-13T09:35:01Z jackdaniel: as I've said, I was picking at the phrase "mathematical sets"
2020-07-13T09:35:15Z phoe: okay, picking accepted
2020-07-13T09:45:04Z leedleLoo: :) I was reading the phrase "mathematical sets" as: (and &rest type-specifiers) in a type-specifier is treated as the definition of a mathematical set of types by the implementation. Consequently, order is not guaranteed. On the other hand, (and &rest expressions) used outside of type-specifiers is treated as a regular expression/macro by the implementation so regular eval rules apply
2020-07-13T09:46:04Z phoe: actually there's no "regular eval rules" when macros come into play
2020-07-13T09:46:24Z phoe: and the AND macro is, well, a macro
2020-07-13T09:46:50Z phoe: standard evaluation rules apply to function calls, not to macro calls
2020-07-13T09:47:42Z leedleLoo: Good point. I guess it's better to say that AND in a type-specifier does not behave like AND the macro
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2020-07-13T09:49:40Z phoe: yes
2020-07-13T09:49:52Z phoe: no short circuiting and no order guarantee
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2020-07-13T11:09:12Z lottaquestions: How can I change the contents of a list in slime inspector?
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2020-07-13T11:13:52Z ldb: hellp
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2020-07-13T11:18:00Z vegai: HELLO
2020-07-13T11:18:13Z phoe: lottaquestions: huh. I never tried, myself.
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2020-07-13T11:19:52Z ldb: lottaquestions: try slime-inspector-operate-on-point
2020-07-13T11:21:33Z phoe: ldb: the issue is that "goes" into the value
2020-07-13T11:21:49Z phoe: so if I inspect the result of (cons 1 2) then I can inspect 1 or 2
2020-07-13T11:21:58Z phoe: but I don't seem to be able to modify the CAR or CDR
2020-07-13T11:22:56Z lottaquestions: so the list is a list of symbols
2020-07-13T11:22:57Z phoe: I think this can be worked around by using M-RET to perform slime-inspector-copy-down, then returning to the REPL, and then mutating the value of *
2020-07-13T11:23:34Z phoe: so (setf (car *) 'lsdvkhlsdg)
2020-07-13T11:23:54Z lottaquestions: let me try that
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2020-07-13T11:29:18Z ldb: phoe: seems slime requires contrib .el files to set value in inspector
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2020-07-13T11:32:13Z phoe: ldb: oh! I wasn't aware of these
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2020-07-13T11:34:28Z lottaquestions: M-RET to perform slime-inspector-copy-down, then returning to the REPL, and then mutating the value of * has worked to change the contents of a list
2020-07-13T11:34:36Z phoe: <3
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2020-07-13T11:55:39Z Posterdati: hi
2020-07-13T11:55:49Z phoe: heyyyy
2020-07-13T11:55:52Z Posterdati: again gsll is unusable on openbsd :(
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2020-07-13T12:25:39Z Posterdati: :openbsd is infact missing in *features*
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2020-07-13T12:29:54Z phoe: Posterdati: which implementation is that?
2020-07-13T12:30:38Z Posterdati: phoe: which implementation is linux then?
2020-07-13T12:31:32Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: I think that he asks about the common lisp implementation you use
2020-07-13T12:31:38Z jackdaniel: not the bsd flavour
2020-07-13T12:31:49Z phoe: Posterdati: I meant the Common Lisp implementation
2020-07-13T12:32:12Z ldb: seems only CLisp, ECL, GCL could work
2020-07-13T12:32:20Z Posterdati: sbcl 2.0 on openbsd 6.7 amd64
2020-07-13T12:32:45Z Posterdati: phoe: seems that there's no :openbsd nor :bsd in *features*
2020-07-13T12:34:35Z Posterdati: phoe: correction,.(member :bsd *features* :test #'equalp) returns (:bsd ... :unix)
2020-07-13T12:34:48Z phoe: Posterdati: so :bsd is there
2020-07-13T12:34:51Z Posterdati: phoe: but no flavour in it
2020-07-13T12:35:08Z phoe: you might want to ask #sbcl to add :openbsd to features when SBCL is built there
2020-07-13T12:35:38Z ldb: or just push it yourself and save the heap image
2020-07-13T12:35:44Z Posterdati: phoe: due to this I cannot use egcc to compile libraries
2020-07-13T12:36:03Z phoe: Posterdati: or do what ldb mentioned for a hotfix
2020-07-13T12:36:29Z Posterdati: phoe: ok, but I have to change cffi and gsll again :)
2020-07-13T12:36:52Z phoe: Posterdati: no, why?
2020-07-13T12:37:08Z phoe: load SBCL up, push :openbsd to *features*, THEN load CFFI and GSLL
2020-07-13T12:37:27Z phoe: they should compile the code that depends on the :openbsd feature
2020-07-13T12:37:32Z Posterdati: phoe: there's no specific configuration for openbsd in cffi, it loads the wrong library version
2020-07-13T12:37:44Z phoe: ooh
2020-07-13T12:37:49Z phoe: then CFFI needs to get patched too
2020-07-13T12:37:56Z Posterdati: and gsll too
2020-07-13T12:38:04Z phoe: such is the life of people on less supported operating systems :(
2020-07-13T12:38:12Z phoe: or should I say, less popular ones
2020-07-13T12:38:16Z Posterdati: I have to do that for the nth time :)
2020-07-13T12:40:36Z ldb: CFFI could work with ECL on OpenBSD
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2020-07-13T12:49:42Z marcoxa: Hello, I have a question regarding the Hyperspec entry for HANDLER-CASE.  Is it just me, or the example expansion in terms of HANDLER-BIND contains one error? I.e., shouldn't the last line be
2020-07-13T12:49:59Z jackdaniel: spec handler-case
2020-07-13T12:50:03Z jackdaniel: clhs handler-case
2020-07-13T12:50:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_hand_1.htm
2020-07-13T12:50:54Z marcoxa: #4# (return-from #2# (let ((var2 #2#)) . body2)) ...)))
2020-07-13T12:51:58Z jackdaniel: there is no block named #2#, is there?
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2020-07-13T12:52:01Z Bike: no, the lambda is the no-error code.
2020-07-13T12:52:10Z jackdaniel: ah, you mean the last example
2020-07-13T12:52:25Z Bike: so it needs to be called if the form doesn't signal an error.
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2020-07-13T12:52:29Z marcoxa: @Bike not the :no-error case.
2020-07-13T12:53:07Z Bike: The other example? jackdaniel is right, there's no block named #2#
2020-07-13T12:53:30Z marcoxa: The first case.  I think me and @jackdaniel agree.
2020-07-13T12:53:44Z Bike: If you agree than it shouldn't be (return-from #2# ...)
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2020-07-13T12:54:13Z phoe: it cannot be return-from #2# because this won't compile
2020-07-13T12:54:21Z phoe: all of these cases must return-from #1#
2020-07-13T12:54:22Z marcoxa: IMHO it *should* be (return-from #2# ...)
2020-07-13T12:54:34Z jackdaniel: marcoxa: but #2# is not a block name
2020-07-13T12:54:36Z Bike: then you don't agree with jackdaniel.
2020-07-13T12:54:38Z jackdaniel: so where from it would return?
2020-07-13T12:54:41Z phoe: marcoxa: try compiling that code
2020-07-13T12:54:47Z Bike: why would it be return-from #2#? there's no block called #2#.
2020-07-13T12:55:50Z jackdaniel: #1 is the handler-case's block to return from, #2 is a temporary result. I'm slightly concerned about the first lambda though
2020-07-13T12:55:58Z jackdaniel: because it should be (setq #2# temp) I think
2020-07-13T12:56:09Z marcoxa: Because of the SETQs in the handlers.  Now that you mentioned it, it does mess things up.  But the SETQs seem erroneous
2020-07-13T12:56:21Z jackdaniel: ditto
2020-07-13T12:56:24Z Bike: yeah, (setq #1# ...) is probably wrong
2020-07-13T12:56:31Z phoe: now that one is wrong, yes
2020-07-13T12:56:36Z phoe: #1# is not a variable
2020-07-13T12:56:57Z phoe: #2# should be set, since it is used to transfer data from the handler function to the handler case
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2020-07-13T12:57:12Z jackdaniel: I'm sure I've said ^ a few lines above
2020-07-13T12:57:14Z marcoxa: Ok.  Yeah.  This looks better.  (setq #2# temp) should be in the first handler.
2020-07-13T12:57:18Z phoe: so https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1954#1954
2020-07-13T12:58:13Z Bike: someone should maybe throw it on https://www.cliki.net/ANSI%20Clarifications%20and%20Errata then
2020-07-13T12:58:21Z marcoxa: Yep @phoe
2020-07-13T12:58:27Z phoe: Bike: I will
2020-07-13T12:58:30Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes, sorry
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2020-07-13T12:59:29Z puchacz: hi, has anybody used a css parser library? I would like to parse css, possibly modify something in the parse tree and serialise it back.
2020-07-13T12:59:39Z jackdaniel: marcoxa: could you check the query window? I've left you a private message
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2020-07-13T12:59:48Z phoe: puchacz: I think Shinmera might have something like that
2020-07-13T12:59:59Z puchacz: phoe: clss?
2020-07-13T13:00:54Z puchacz: I am not sure you can serialise it back into a string
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2020-07-13T13:07:48Z Posterdati: phoe: no way to make it work...
2020-07-13T13:08:16Z phoe: Posterdati: sorry, can't help you any further
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2020-07-13T13:14:00Z ldb: Posterdati: have you had luck with ECL?
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2020-07-13T13:26:02Z ldb: it's interesting to see that in the book A Programming Language, ``metaprogramming'' actually is parsing and evaling terms
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2020-07-13T13:29:24Z phoe: lisp stuff must be metametaprogramming then
2020-07-13T13:35:46Z Posterdati: ldb: not using ecl on openbsd
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2020-07-13T13:43:29Z puchacz: hmmm, I am finding lquery rather difficult to understand....
2020-07-13T13:44:56Z puchacz: macros, macros everywhere
2020-07-13T13:46:52Z phoe: beach: please submit your talk. I'll have two talks this time, the other from the Guile Scheme world.
2020-07-13T13:47:05Z phoe: (If it's not a big problem for you, that is!)
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2020-07-13T13:54:12Z beach: phoe: OK, will do.
2020-07-13T13:54:24Z phoe: beach: thanks!
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2020-07-13T14:44:07Z Posterdati: phoe: fixes
2020-07-13T14:44:09Z Posterdati: phoe: fixed!
2020-07-13T14:44:36Z Posterdati: phoe: but is still uses clang to compile and not the $CC contents
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2020-07-13T15:05:26Z marcoxa: @Posterdati R U italian? As if it were antani? :)
2020-07-13T15:08:58Z beach: marcoxa: The @ convention is not used on IRC.  Just type the nick followed by a colon.  Your IRC client should complete for you.
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2020-07-13T15:29:11Z dlowe: beach: that's complicated by the popularity of bridges now
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2020-07-13T15:29:58Z beach: Oh, another thing I am completely ignorant of. :(
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2020-07-13T15:46:38Z cnmne: hi, I'm trying to understand an elisp package. In `(declare-function some-func "ext:other-func" ())`, what's the purpose of the ":ext" prefix ?
2020-07-13T15:47:19Z phoe: #emacs might help you more
2020-07-13T15:47:19Z beach: cnmne: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so you may have to ask in #emacs.
2020-07-13T15:47:48Z cnmne: oh sorry, thanks
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2020-07-13T16:33:41Z Posterdati: marcoxa: by two
2020-07-13T16:34:11Z Posterdati: marcoxa: like it was antani
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2020-07-13T16:55:42Z rikudocat: I will add some fresh to the discussion here
2020-07-13T16:56:32Z rikudocat: If you don’t want to see any foreign objects, please respond
2020-07-13T16:56:46Z phoe: rikudocat: huh
2020-07-13T16:57:28Z rikudocat: o, my English is not good, can not understand the abbreviation
2020-07-13T16:57:48Z phoe: which abbreviation?
2020-07-13T16:57:53Z phoe: "huh" means that I did not understand you
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2020-07-13T16:58:34Z rikudocat: I get it now
2020-07-13T16:58:58Z rikudocat: I'm going to show a thing that all software engineers love.
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2020-07-13T16:59:58Z rikudocat: If there is no objection, I will send a link to my project later
2020-07-13T17:00:11Z phoe: what is the project?
2020-07-13T17:00:37Z rikudocat: https://bit.ly/2Zf4zMQ
2020-07-13T17:01:13Z phoe: ummmmm, is this related to Lisp though?
2020-07-13T17:01:29Z rikudocat: Forgive me for using a short URL, no trap to open it with confidence
2020-07-13T17:01:31Z Bike: this url looks pretty shady.
2020-07-13T17:02:13Z phoe: just clicked it, it's an IPFS page. keyboard layouts don't seem on-topic though
2020-07-13T17:02:26Z rikudocat: Don't be too serious, always talk about one thing, time will pass quickly
2020-07-13T17:02:39Z phoe: (especially non-space-cadet ones :D)
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2020-07-13T17:09:26Z rikudocat: I hope that lisp programmers who are interested in the project will join my project
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2020-07-13T23:26:33Z Oladon: White_Flame: Around? I'd like to run some thoughts by ya.
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2020-07-13T23:50:43Z z3t0: I was wondering if there are lisps out there suited to real-time programming or tasks that require predictable performance? I think mainly this would require an implementation without a garbage collector? I'm no expert so please correct me if I said something stupid. My use case is writing a real time video processing application
2020-07-13T23:51:07Z z3t0: I did read somewhere that the gc can also be tuned, is that a good approach?
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2020-07-14T00:16:13Z jasom: z3t0: what is the maximum latency you can tolerate?
2020-07-14T00:17:53Z jasom: I'm not aware of any common-lisp implementation that can keep GC pauses under, say, 100ms reliably.  However, if you don't allocate in your latency-sensitive sections, then GC pauses don't matter
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2020-07-14T00:19:54Z jasom: z3t0: that being said, there is nothing that makes it impossible to build a lisp with very short GC pauses, it's just that optimizing for short pauses isn't something anyone has done.
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2020-07-14T00:20:39Z z3t0: jasom: it hasn't been defined yet. I think mroe than maximum latency, we are aiming for predictable latency
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2020-07-14T00:30:16Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: ABCL has two short-pause GCs by virtue of the JVM
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2020-07-14T01:18:02Z White_Flame: Oladon: y0
2020-07-14T01:19:23Z White_Flame: z3t0: reducing GC latency also slows down main-line code, so that would increase your responsiveness of your code regardless of added GC latency
2020-07-14T01:19:41Z White_Flame: *reduce the responsiveness
2020-07-14T01:20:03Z White_Flame: of course, that comes in to play when the workload per event is fairly high
2020-07-14T01:20:34Z White_Flame: and some percentage increase in runtime cost would be unacceptable
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2020-07-14T02:01:59Z Oladon: White_Flame: I'm hoping for some tips on figuring out what my parser should output. I'm following up on that BBCode/Commonmark parser from last time (thanks again for your version!)
2020-07-14T02:04:08Z White_Flame: sure
2020-07-14T02:04:18Z White_Flame: I haven't gotten around to packaging mine up, really busy with other stuff :-/
2020-07-14T02:04:48Z Oladon: No worries. It's been good practice :)
2020-07-14T02:05:15Z Oladon: I'm using spinneret, so technically I could probably output spinneret pseudo-DOM... but that seems kinda specific to this use case'
2020-07-14T02:05:19Z Oladon: -'
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2020-07-14T02:06:25Z White_Flame: one of the bigger things with bbcode is that you have to allow unbalanced brackets & tags to go through unmodifieed
2020-07-14T02:06:50Z White_Flame: (or at least, that's the most user-helpful failure case.  If you eat unbalanced contents, the user has no clue what went wrong)
2020-07-14T02:07:37Z White_Flame: [a][b]foo[/a][/b] has sometimes been supported in various boards, too
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2020-07-14T02:13:44Z Oladon: Yeah, I decided not to try to support that last bit for now
2020-07-14T02:14:00Z Oladon: My in-order combinator allows for ignoring incomplete/unbalanced stuff
2020-07-14T02:15:12Z Oladon: Just not really sure if I should shoot for alists as output, or a list of string + DOMish AST, or what
2020-07-14T02:15:27Z Oladon: And if there are any good arguments one way or another, or if it's pretty much just preference
2020-07-14T02:16:08Z White_Flame: for this case, I'd say a list of terms, where a term is either a string or (<tag> . <terms>)
2020-07-14T02:16:20Z Oladon: hmm
2020-07-14T02:16:54Z Oladon: What about complex tags that take arguments, like [url=title]...[/url] or [color=red]?
2020-07-14T02:17:16Z White_Flame: ah, then (<tag> <params> . <terms>) :)
2020-07-14T02:17:22Z Oladon: Hmm
2020-07-14T02:17:30Z White_Flame: always have a place for the params, even if it's often nil
2020-07-14T02:17:57Z White_Flame: or make a 3-element struct the more positional you get.  But it will always contain a list of terms which can nest tags beneath it
2020-07-14T02:18:24Z z3t0: White_Flame: what is mainlinecode?
2020-07-14T02:18:28Z Oladon: Makes sense... what's the benefit of doing (x y . z) as opposed to just (x y z)?
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2020-07-14T02:19:10Z White_Flame: just preference really
2020-07-14T02:19:20Z White_Flame: whether it's 1 list ith header stuff, vs an explicit sublist
2020-07-14T02:19:30Z White_Flame: since a cdr can be treated as a separate list, it's handy
2020-07-14T02:19:57Z Oladon: Isn't the cdr of (1 2 . 3) going to be (2 . 3)? (I think I'm missing something.)
2020-07-14T02:20:26Z White_Flame: (:b () "Bold text with an " (:i () "italicized") " word")
2020-07-14T02:20:34Z White_Flame: vs
2020-07-14T02:20:47Z White_Flame: (:b () ("Bold text with an " (:i () "italicized") " word"))
2020-07-14T02:20:58Z Oladon: Ahh
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2020-07-14T02:22:08Z White_Flame: and of course that translates easily to html
2020-07-14T02:22:16Z White_Flame: since the body is a list of stuff like that
2020-07-14T02:22:33Z Oladon: Yeah, that makes sense. Hang on, though... which one are you espousing?
2020-07-14T02:23:00Z White_Flame: I would default to the 1st one.  But the latter is useful if you add in more peer lists than the 2 that exists
2020-07-14T02:23:12Z White_Flame: again, as it becomes more positional, you probably want to move to structs
2020-07-14T02:23:27Z Oladon: Gotcha. What would your access look like for the various parts of the first one, and what do you mean by positional?
2020-07-14T02:23:31Z White_Flame: instead of having a list of 7 things in deliberate order
2020-07-14T02:23:58Z White_Flame: (<tag> <attr list> <some other list> <count> <body list> <flags> ...)
2020-07-14T02:24:06Z Oladon: Oh, you mean if I end up having (x y z aa bb . zz)
2020-07-14T02:24:07Z Oladon: gotcha
2020-07-14T02:24:08Z Oladon: yeah
2020-07-14T02:24:28Z White_Flame: each thing in the list has some position by protocol, but unenforced by anything.  THe struct keeps tract of what is where by name, which is handy when there's more than just a few associated things
2020-07-14T02:24:32Z White_Flame: yep
2020-07-14T02:25:10Z White_Flame: and defstruct can actually manage lists for you, if you need it kept as a single list of terms in meaningful positions
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2020-07-14T02:25:41Z White_Flame: (defstruct (foo (:type list)) ...)
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2020-07-14T02:26:52Z Oladon: I haven't done much with defstruct; probably a good time to explore it
2020-07-14T02:27:04Z Oladon: CLOS seems like overkill for this :P
2020-07-14T02:27:22Z White_Flame: yeah, I use methods here & there, but almost never defclass
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2020-07-14T02:27:39Z White_Flame is probably in the minority on that one
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2020-07-14T02:32:57Z Oladon: Yeah, I like it for a lot of stuff :)
2020-07-14T02:33:45Z Oladon: Alright, so tangentially-related question for you... how in the world am I supposed to implement an escape character? :P
2020-07-14T02:34:13Z Oladon: (I should probably not be thinking about that yet, but c'est la vie...)
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2020-07-14T02:37:31Z White_Flame: hmm, for what?
2020-07-14T02:37:50Z White_Flame: unescaped brackets are plain brackets in output; they don't require escaping
2020-07-14T02:38:12Z Oladon: Good point...
2020-07-14T02:38:53Z Oladon: But then it seems like my parser is going to have to backtrack
2020-07-14T02:39:01Z White_Flame: yep
2020-07-14T02:39:05Z Oladon: Ah.
2020-07-14T02:39:12Z Oladon: That's unfortunate.
2020-07-14T02:39:30Z White_Flame: well, it's just trimming output and returning to a point in the input string/stream, so it's really not bad
2020-07-14T02:40:47Z Oladon: Hmm... I can't quite visualize the path forward from where I am. Maybe I'm in the wrong place. Today I have, for example, (in-order (bbcode-open-tag) (one-or-more (anything-but ([))) (bbcode-matching-close-tag))
2020-07-14T02:40:55Z Oladon: (Of course, the middle bit is what needs to change)
2020-07-14T02:41:12Z Oladon: (This doesn't support nested tags either :))
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2020-07-14T02:49:22Z Oladon: Hmm, (in-order (bbcode-open-tag) (one-or-more (any (bbcode-matching-close-tag) (anything)))) works
2020-07-14T02:49:39Z Oladon: But it ain't purty ;)
2020-07-14T02:49:57Z White_Flame: it's also the first thing that works, which is a good model to then make the purty version from
2020-07-14T02:50:05Z Oladon: Heh, fair
2020-07-14T02:50:19Z White_Flame: since you then know the details that you need to get together in a better way
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2020-07-14T02:59:07Z Oladon: Aight. I should log out. Appreciate your help this evening!
2020-07-14T02:59:11Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-07-14T02:59:20Z Oladon: Morning beach! And night to you as well!
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2020-07-14T04:46:26Z ldb: good afternnon
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2020-07-14T04:58:42Z beach: Hello ldb.
2020-07-14T05:00:46Z ldb: hello beach
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2020-07-14T05:09:33Z Elronnd: why do some lisps (1.5?, emacs) use setq, some (cl) use setf, and some use set! (scheme)?  What do the 'q' and 'f' mean?
2020-07-14T05:09:59Z beach: q means quote.
2020-07-14T05:10:12Z beach: In the beginning there was SET that evaluated both arguments.
2020-07-14T05:10:56Z beach: I am not sure what F means, but it is used for side-effecting operations.  SETF is more versatile than SETQ because it can set places other than variables.
2020-07-14T05:11:39Z beach: Common Lisp still has SETQ and it is a special operator.
2020-07-14T05:11:53Z beach: SETF is a macro that is then expanded to simpler operators.
2020-07-14T05:12:13Z Elronnd: ah, neat
2020-07-14T05:12:40Z Elronnd: why does scheme change to set!?
2020-07-14T05:12:42Z beach: Scheme just wanted to have a more direct indication for side effects and predicates, so it uses ! and ?
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2020-07-14T05:13:45Z beach: And I don't know how versatile Scheme set! is.  This is a Common Lisp channel after all.
2020-07-14T05:15:58Z ldb: according to Lisp Machine Manual, setf means set `form'
2020-07-14T05:16:23Z ldb: and Scheme prefer to use ! to indicate procedures with side effect
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2020-07-14T05:21:01Z beach: And the reason we don't use SET anymore is that modern Lisps want the compiler to do more work, so that efficient code can be generated.  For that to work, the name of variables must be known at compile time.  If a new variable name can magically appear, say with (SET (READ) 234), then there is little the compiler can do.
2020-07-14T05:23:22Z Elronnd: (eval `(set ,(read) 234))
2020-07-14T05:23:47Z Elronnd: s/set/setf/
2020-07-14T05:23:48Z beach: What is that example supposed to show?
2020-07-14T05:24:10Z Elronnd: that a new variable name can magically appear
2020-07-14T05:24:15Z beach: In a modern Lisp like Common Lisp, EVAL does not have access to the lexical environment.
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2020-07-14T05:24:55Z beach: So (let ((x 0)) (eval `(setf ,(read) 234))) does not influence X even if that is the symbol returned by READ.
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2020-07-14T05:25:31Z beach: It will affect the special variable X if there is such a thing.
2020-07-14T05:26:08Z beach: Another way of putting it is that the form given to EVAL is evaluated in the global environment, also known as the "null lexical environment".
2020-07-14T05:26:12Z beach: clhs eval
2020-07-14T05:26:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eval.htm
2020-07-14T05:26:27Z Elronnd: ahh, I see
2020-07-14T05:27:46Z beach: Common Lisp was designed so that a compiler can generate fast code, if written the right way.
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2020-07-14T05:28:11Z beach: As opposed to languages like Python that do not even pretend that it is possible to generate fast code.
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2020-07-14T05:29:14Z ldb: if you'd like to hear a longer explaination on where does setf from, there was a SETFQ function that could alter a value produced by function, later abbreviated and adapted to Lisp Machine's SETF
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2020-07-14T05:31:57Z ldb: and that was BBN-LISP
2020-07-14T05:33:12Z beach: Elronnd: The Common Lisp standard is a very impressive piece of work.  It is clear that it was designed by a bunch of people who are both smart and knowledgeable.  That's why it is sad to see individuals without sufficient knowledge trying to "improve" the standard, or even design a "better" language.
2020-07-14T05:33:14Z terpri: schemes often have a method of extending set!, similar to setf, as with (info "(guile) Procedures with Setters")
2020-07-14T05:33:53Z beach: terpri: I think the key words here are "schemeS" and "often", meaning there is no standard.
2020-07-14T05:33:55Z terpri: not standardized as of r5rs, iirc; there's probably an srfi for it, and it might be included in some form in r6rs or r7rs
2020-07-14T05:33:59Z terpri: yeah
2020-07-14T05:39:26Z beach: Elronnd: For example, it would be tempting for some of those people to give EVAL access to the lexical environment, thereby making most compiler optimizations impossible.
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2020-07-14T05:40:27Z terpri: islisp has setf, but it's not arbitrarily extensible (http://islisp.org/docs/islisp-v23.pdf p35, place-form operators are limited to basic getters like car &c., and extensible only in that it can be used with slot reader functions applied to instances, iiuc)
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2020-07-14T05:43:15Z terpri: ...i'm completely wrong actually, you can define (setf ...) generic functions apparently
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2020-07-14T06:24:59Z vegai: so quicklisp is the contemporary way to install library dependencies, right?
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2020-07-14T06:25:29Z beach: Well, to install the libraries.  Quicklisp handles the dependencies.
2020-07-14T06:26:24Z vegai: does it (or some other system) support lock files?
2020-07-14T06:26:57Z vegai: dunno if that's actually a required thing in cl, given the stability of most libraries
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2020-07-14T06:30:39Z beach: What would such support do?
2020-07-14T06:31:32Z phoe: you can pin libraries by downloading them to local-projects
2020-07-14T06:31:51Z phoe: and setting the git repo to the version you want
2020-07-14T06:33:31Z ahungry: npm gets a lot of grief for node_modules/ being huge, but it is a nice convenience where my project could depend on a library at version 1.2.3, and a dependency of mine may depend on that same library at version 2.3.4, although it also lends itself well to constant backwards compatability breakage (much more than I've seen in other communities)
2020-07-14T06:33:56Z ahungry: usually the lock files maintain the exact versions for the entire dependency of dependency tree
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2020-07-14T06:41:55Z shka_: oh gosh, usocket does not always raise defined conditions
2020-07-14T06:42:49Z beach: shka_: Conditions are not "raised" in Common Lisp.  They are "signaled".
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2020-07-14T06:44:54Z shka_: beach: oh, that makes it completely fine!
2020-07-14T06:46:00Z phoe: shka_: example?
2020-07-14T06:49:20Z shka_: moment, i have a long running task boiling down to sending requests with dexador and suddenly a cl:error (not a subclass) out of the usocket
2020-07-14T06:49:53Z shka_: i forgot to check the stack trace though :/
2020-07-14T06:49:56Z shka_: silly me
2020-07-14T06:50:15Z phoe: what was in the stack trace?
2020-07-14T06:52:10Z shka_: don't remember precisely, but i recall usocket at the top
2020-07-14T06:52:18Z shka_: but it couldn't be
2020-07-14T06:52:34Z phoe: huh
2020-07-14T06:52:49Z shka_: nothing in the usocket signals condition with a description like this
2020-07-14T06:53:04Z shka_: so perhaps i was mistaken
2020-07-14T06:53:17Z shka_: i should have save the stack trace
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2020-07-14T07:18:07Z flip214: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/doc/best_practices.md#simple_testing has    (defsystem "foobar/tests" ...)    and a few lines further    (defsystem "foobar-tests" ...)
2020-07-14T07:18:20Z flip214: is dash or slash the current convention?
2020-07-14T07:22:18Z phoe: flip214: you forgot about "foobar.test"
2020-07-14T07:22:44Z phoe: slash happens only if both ASDF systems reside in the same ASD file
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2020-07-14T07:37:29Z flip214: phoe: so there is no convention?
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2020-07-14T07:38:46Z phoe: flip214: I've seen all three
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2020-07-14T07:39:12Z phoe: I have a personal tase for "foobar.test" that also introduces the singular/plural aspect
2020-07-14T07:39:37Z phoe: s/tase/taste/
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2020-07-14T07:59:20Z flip214: Using fiveam I see a strange behaviour. Without a (DECLARE (IGNORE ...)) I get an "unused var" warning and a failure; with the DECLARE the tests succeeds.
2020-07-14T07:59:23Z flip214: PERF-PCT evaluated to 1.4643059 which is not <= to 1.5
2020-07-14T07:59:40Z phoe: huh!
2020-07-14T07:59:48Z flip214: is the error for a (fiveam:is (<= 1.5 perf-pct))
2020-07-14T08:05:17Z flip214: grrr, now (after changing the calculation a bit) I get the error even _with_ DECLARE.  PERF-PCT evaluated to 0.94503224 which is not <= to 1.5
2020-07-14T08:05:56Z phoe: well, (<= 1.5 0.94) is false, so the test seems to work
2020-07-14T08:06:04Z phoe: I don't know about the DECLARE IGNORE thing though
2020-07-14T08:06:24Z flip214: phoe: arrrg, yeah, just found it out as well!
2020-07-14T08:06:35Z flip214: the text string produced by FIVEAM is bad
2020-07-14T08:06:46Z phoe: oh, yes, the arguments are flipped
2020-07-14T08:06:52Z phoe: (pun (not) intended)
2020-07-14T08:07:42Z flip214: phoe: thanks! ;)   writing an issue
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2020-07-14T08:17:24Z phoe: I assume that fiveam expects some sort of equality test there
2020-07-14T08:17:37Z phoe: and that's an imperfect heuristic, as you just found out
2020-07-14T08:18:16Z phoe: and I think it may make fireworks with all sorts of asymmetric binary operators, such as TYPEP
2020-07-14T08:18:17Z flip214: phoe: (is (<= 1.1 1.4 0.9))   is less intelligent and works ;)
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2020-07-14T08:18:52Z phoe: yes
2020-07-14T08:19:05Z flip214: https://github.com/sionescu/fiveam/issues/68
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2020-07-14T08:37:55Z iissaacc: Does anyone know, if I have quicklisp and ultralisp dists registered in quicklisp, if its possible to specify what dist to install a package from?
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2020-07-14T08:38:33Z iissaacc: cl-json seems to be broken on ultralisp and thats where quicklisp is trying to install it from
2020-07-14T08:39:35Z iissaacc: i.e.
2020-07-14T08:39:52Z iissaacc: #<SYSTEM cl-json / cl-json-20141217-git / quicklisp 2020-06-10>
2020-07-14T08:39:55Z iissaacc: vs
2020-07-14T08:40:11Z iissaacc: #<SYSTEM cl-json / kennytilton-qooxlisp-20200310031742 / ultralisp 20200714055506>
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2020-07-14T08:49:22Z flip214: iissaacc: there's a (QL-DIST:DISABLE <dist>), perhaps that helps?
2020-07-14T08:52:39Z iissaacc: bingo
2020-07-14T08:52:44Z iissaacc: thanks flip214
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2020-07-14T08:55:37Z iissaacc: might do a bit of hackage on ql:quickload so i can specify the dist
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2020-07-14T09:36:33Z pve: Is it normal for the slime modeline to sort of "flicker" about once per second?
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2020-07-14T10:42:06Z Xach: iissaacc: you can set a preference in fairly fine detail
2020-07-14T10:44:15Z iissaacc: Xach: how would one go about this?
2020-07-14T10:44:36Z iissaacc: thanks for the software btw i assume u are the eponymous xach
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2020-07-14T10:47:35Z Xach: iissaacc: one option is ql-dist::(setf (preference (find-system-in-dist "cl-json" (dist "ultralisp"))) (get-universal-time))
2020-07-14T10:48:04Z Xach: oops
2020-07-14T10:48:09Z Xach: change that from ultralisp to quicklisp
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2020-07-14T10:48:29Z Xach: also, odd that ultralisp uses cl-json bundled with qooxlisp, which is surely out of date.
2020-07-14T10:49:07Z iissaacc: yeah i feel like the best course of action is just to uninstall ultralisp
2020-07-14T10:49:20Z iissaacc: thanks for that tho, copied into emacs notes
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2020-07-14T12:18:09Z beach: phoe: http://metamodular.com/SICL/creating-cl-abstract-2.text
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2020-07-14T12:31:24Z phoe: beach: OK, thanks. Will announce today.
2020-07-14T12:32:17Z beach: Great!
2020-07-14T12:38:42Z Posterdati: hi
2020-07-14T12:39:00Z beach: Hello Posterdati.
2020-07-14T12:39:12Z Posterdati: beach: hello!
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2020-07-14T12:40:52Z Posterdati: is anyone reviewing gsll and cffi to work under sbcl on OpenBSD?
2020-07-14T12:58:40Z flip214: Is there a way to ensure that some function will not be optimized away? I'd like to keep a FILL-SEQUENCE in, even if the sequence is only dynamic extent and not used later on
2020-07-14T12:59:51Z beach: Functions in the global environment will not be optimized away.
2020-07-14T13:00:14Z jackdaniel: if it is a local function, you may force its escape
2020-07-14T13:00:24Z jackdaniel: i.e (push #'fill-sequence *my-trashbin*)
2020-07-14T13:01:37Z Bike: fill-sequence is your own function? it's unlikely the compiler is willing to optimize away a call to a possibly redefinable function. are you observing it doing so?
2020-07-14T13:02:03Z flip214: I'm sorry, I don't understand you. I want to keep the _call_ of the function in, making sure that it's not eliminated as dead-code or so.
2020-07-14T13:02:48Z flip214: Bike: I want to destroy a secret key in a vector; and C has a history of optimizing things (like a memset) away, so I thought I'd better ask.
2020-07-14T13:02:58Z Bike: ah, right, like that bzero stuff
2020-07-14T13:04:05Z Bike: to be really sure you'll probably have to check the disassembly, and then if it's still removed... well... talk to the implementation devs probably
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2020-07-14T13:14:25Z flip214: so there's no cross-platform way, like a (LOCALLY (OPTIMIZE (space 0) (debug 3) (safety 100))) or so? thanks
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2020-07-14T13:16:18Z Bike: notinline is the closest thing, i think
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2020-07-14T13:16:56Z Bike: i would be surprised if a compiler optimized away a call to a notinline function. assuming that by "dead code" you mean that the result isn't used etc, rather than that the code is unreachable
2020-07-14T13:17:53Z Bike: notinline tells the compiler it can't assume anything about the function, essentially; so perhaps it has some visible side effects, so it can't be optimized away
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2020-07-14T16:59:54Z chewb: hello, i am learning Common Lisp using Portacle
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2020-07-14T17:00:42Z chewb: afair i can select previous command i inputed into SLIME REPL by clicking cursor on it and RET
2020-07-14T17:00:56Z chewb: but i cant do it now, i get message "Buffer is read only|
2020-07-14T17:00:59Z chewb: why?
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2020-07-14T18:06:40Z beach: chewb: Try M-p instead.
2020-07-14T18:07:04Z beach: chewb: I use M-r a lot to search for the previous form of a certain kind that I typed.
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2020-07-14T18:56:13Z flip214: Bike: yeah, thanks... still, this is one not-so-nice part of a SSC. I thought about doing (funcall 'fill-sequence vec) - that can't be inlined or optimized away unless (setf symbol-function) etc. is gone, too - but that "feels" unclean and non-optimal
2020-07-14T18:56:37Z flip214: CL is old enough that there should be a optimization setting for that ;)
2020-07-14T18:57:20Z Bike: declaring notinline is basically the same as doing that funcall
2020-07-14T19:00:51Z flip214: okay, thanks a lot!
2020-07-14T19:01:19Z Bike: no problem
2020-07-14T19:02:48Z flip214: ah, and I meant FILL when I wrote FILL-SEQUENCE
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2020-07-14T19:39:22Z chewb: thank you beach Alt-p works
2020-07-14T19:40:50Z chewb: do you know how to quickly disable paredit?
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2020-07-14T19:44:24Z Bike: M-x disable-paredit-mode, i think?
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2020-07-15T00:54:33Z Oladon: vegai: Yeah, Quicklisp supports the concept
2020-07-15T00:55:34Z z3t0: Does anyone here hack around with lisp on any mobile devices?
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2020-07-15T00:55:56Z Oladon: I used to use it on a Zaurus, does that count? Oh, and a Palm Pilot.
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2020-07-15T01:15:56Z z3t0: that's cool! especially the palm pilot actually
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2020-07-15T01:16:29Z z3t0: Did the pilot have apis for drawing? Or how did you handle that?
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2020-07-15T01:26:02Z Oladon: Drawing? You just typed your code...
2020-07-15T01:26:23Z Oladon: Don't tell the channel, but I believe it was a Scheme variant. ;)
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2020-07-15T01:45:16Z ldb: good morning everyone
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2020-07-15T01:57:03Z z3t0: Oladon: Oh. I noticed it had a pen/stylus? I thought it would support drawing lines and what
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2020-07-15T02:00:08Z Oladon: Oh, maybe. Don't recall doing any drawing in Lisp specifically, but it had a pretty spiffy handwriting recognition system
2020-07-15T02:00:31Z Oladon: ldb: Morning!
2020-07-15T02:02:17Z z3t0: thats neat! I'm trying to do a survey of gui tooklits. What I'd like to write is an application that runs on linux and has support for touch paradigms. I also plan to hack together a handwriting component. So far I'm looking into ltk - wondering if it's easy to write custom components there.
2020-07-15T02:02:40Z z3t0: I want to avoid qt for now since its a much larger dependency and I don't plan to use much of what it offers
2020-07-15T02:02:45Z z3t0: ldb: morning :D
2020-07-15T02:03:05Z Oladon: Haven't used LTK, sorry :)
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2020-07-15T02:07:14Z ldb: is there any linux distro already having touch screen support?
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2020-07-15T02:09:20Z ldb: other than Andriod, if that is considered as a linux distro
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2020-07-15T02:10:33Z akoana: well gnome3 (available on many distros) should support touch screen well
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2020-07-15T02:11:57Z ldb: akoana: thank you
2020-07-15T02:12:30Z akoana: same for KDE Plasma (so Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu ... all the "main" distros)
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2020-07-15T03:18:21Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-07-15T03:20:33Z Oladon: beach: Morning!
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2020-07-15T12:06:27Z flip214: When I use (MERGE-PATHNAMES *dir* "some/filename.ext"), can I specify *DIR* in a way that the "filename.ext" is removed from the result?
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2020-07-15T12:08:10Z scymtym: does (merge-pathnames *dir* (make-pathname :directory (pathname-directory "some/filename.ext"))) work?
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2020-07-15T12:10:48Z flip214: scymtym: yeah, but I hoped for some change in the config only (modifying *dir*)... ;)
2020-07-15T12:11:42Z flip214: thanks!
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2020-07-15T12:13:25Z scymtym: you could surround the result with (make-pathname :name nil :type nil :version nil :defaults RESULT)
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2020-07-15T12:18:14Z Posterdati: hi
2020-07-15T12:19:01Z Posterdati: seems that even ecl does not work with gsll on OpenBSD :(
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2020-07-15T12:45:43Z phoe: annnnd we're on HN frontpage https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23843525
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2020-07-15T12:48:21Z beach: Congratulations!
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2020-07-15T13:59:55Z eta: phoe, oh crap you're writing a book?
2020-07-15T14:00:00Z eta just saw that on HN
2020-07-15T14:00:05Z eta: yay more lisp content!
2020-07-15T14:00:55Z phoe: eta: well, I did write one
2020-07-15T14:01:06Z eta: :o
2020-07-15T14:01:07Z eta: which
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2020-07-15T14:01:23Z beach: He means that it is done.
2020-07-15T14:01:27Z phoe: ^
2020-07-15T14:01:28Z eta: oh I see
2020-07-15T14:01:32Z eta nod
2020-07-15T14:01:35Z phoe: it's done, written, in typesetting now
2020-07-15T14:01:41Z eta: makes sense
2020-07-15T14:01:56Z eta: well, I mean, the last lisp books I read were land of lisp and the weitz one
2020-07-15T14:02:02Z eta: so it'll be nice to read something new!
2020-07-15T14:02:14Z shka_: phoe: have written
2020-07-15T14:02:44Z phoe: shka_: thanks
2020-07-15T14:02:55Z shka_: you are welcome
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2020-07-15T15:12:40Z jmercouris: hello everyone
2020-07-15T15:13:03Z beach: Hello jmercouris.
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2020-07-15T15:13:10Z jmercouris: :-)
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2020-07-15T15:16:57Z phoe: heyyyyy
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2020-07-15T16:19:17Z theosvoitha: Hello Is it worth to learn Emacs Lisp?
2020-07-15T16:19:35Z phoe: theosvoitha: well
2020-07-15T16:19:41Z phoe: you landed in a place full of Common Lisp programmers
2020-07-15T16:19:48Z phoe: so we can certainly tell you that it is worth to learn Common Lisp
2020-07-15T16:20:00Z phoe: but #emacs might be a better place for your original question
2020-07-15T16:20:23Z theosvoitha: okay thanks phoe.
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2020-07-15T16:22:28Z theosvoitha: They clearly asked me to learn other lisps (Other than emacs lisp_
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2020-07-15T16:22:51Z beach: They?
2020-07-15T16:23:01Z theosvoitha: #emacs
2020-07-15T16:23:05Z beach: Ah.
2020-07-15T16:23:07Z phoe: well then! you landed in a right place
2020-07-15T16:23:13Z beach: Then Common Lisp is a good choice.
2020-07-15T16:23:17Z theosvoitha: ha ha. so guide me.
2020-07-15T16:23:27Z theosvoitha: i mean what can i do..
2020-07-15T16:23:35Z jackdaniel: minion: tell theosvoitha about pcl
2020-07-15T16:23:36Z minion: theosvoitha: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-07-15T16:23:39Z jackdaniel: minion: tell theosvoitha about paip
2020-07-15T16:23:39Z minion: theosvoitha: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2020-07-15T16:24:05Z jackdaniel: minion: tell theosvoitha about portacle
2020-07-15T16:24:06Z minion: theosvoitha: portacle: Portacle is a complete IDE for Common Lisp that you can take with you on a USB stick https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/
2020-07-15T16:24:18Z jackdaniel: minion: thank you
2020-07-15T16:24:19Z minion: you're welcome
2020-07-15T16:25:22Z jackdaniel: feel guided
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2020-07-15T16:25:32Z jackdaniel makes some weird movements with his hand
2020-07-15T16:25:54Z theosvoitha: thanks jackdaniel minion.
2020-07-15T16:26:33Z beach: theosvoitha: For newbie questions, there is help in #clschool too.
2020-07-15T16:26:54Z theosvoitha: thanks beach
2020-07-15T16:27:06Z beach: Sure.
2020-07-15T16:27:17Z theosvoitha: I guess now i need to find some replacement for GNU emacs.
2020-07-15T16:27:35Z jackdaniel: most people who work with open source common lisp implementations use gnu emacs
2020-07-15T16:27:37Z jackdaniel: see portacle
2020-07-15T16:27:52Z jackdaniel: which is emacs with batties included
2020-07-15T16:27:57Z jackdaniel: batteries
2020-07-15T16:28:43Z theosvoitha: Portacle is a complete IDE for Common Lisp
2020-07-15T16:29:43Z beach: Sort of.  It is a collection of components.
2020-07-15T16:29:48Z beach: Emacs is one component.
2020-07-15T16:30:00Z beach: SBCL is the Common Lisp implementation component.
2020-07-15T16:30:22Z beach: SLIME is another component.
2020-07-15T16:30:27Z theosvoitha: downloading
2020-07-15T16:30:58Z theosvoitha: If you guys do not mind, can you suggest me some GNU Emacs alternative now.
2020-07-15T16:31:23Z phoe: emacs
2020-07-15T16:31:29Z beach: Why do you want an alternative?
2020-07-15T16:31:43Z phoe: it takes a while to get used to, but slime/sly are the best choices for developing lisp stuff.
2020-07-15T16:32:09Z phoe: there also exists SLIMA for Atom - it seems to be getting somewhat good
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2020-07-15T16:32:15Z phoe: and also slimv/vlime for VIM
2020-07-15T16:32:29Z theosvoitha: Because i was told at #emacs that you need to learn Emacs lisp to use it properly. But they also say that better learn other Lisps
2020-07-15T16:32:38Z beach: NOOOOO
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2020-07-15T16:32:46Z theosvoitha: oops
2020-07-15T16:33:06Z beach: theosvoitha: When you use GNU Emacs with Common Lisp, you don't need to know anything about Emacs Lisp.
2020-07-15T16:33:09Z beach: Or very little.
2020-07-15T16:33:15Z phoe: ^
2020-07-15T16:33:16Z jasom never learned emacs lisp
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2020-07-15T16:33:30Z bitmapper: and by the time you learn common lisp you'll know most of emacs lisp anyway
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2020-07-15T16:33:45Z phoe: there exist emacs distributions like spacemacs that bundle a lot of software, including slime/sly - you can use those to avoid writing your own emacs configuration files
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2020-07-15T16:33:54Z bitmapper: because emacs lisp ⊆ common lisp
2020-07-15T16:34:08Z jasom: I guess I learned enough to be able to put things like (enable-foo) in my init.el but that's mostly treating it like a configuration format, not a programming language
2020-07-15T16:34:09Z bitmapper: in a sense
2020-07-15T16:34:17Z theosvoitha: bitmapper: beach This cleared the stuff.
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2020-07-15T16:35:17Z theosvoitha: I tried spacemacs for Windows but it needs some workaround.
2020-07-15T16:36:46Z _death: actually elisp is a much larger language than CL
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2020-07-15T16:39:24Z theosvoitha: thanks to all you guys for all openness and help!!
2020-07-15T16:39:52Z beach: Pleasure.  Good luck!
2020-07-15T16:42:54Z xristos: _death: how so?
2020-07-15T16:43:34Z _death: xristos: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/elisp.html
2020-07-15T16:44:00Z _death: xristos: you need to learn about buffers, windows, etc.
2020-07-15T16:44:36Z xristos: but these concepts are really Emacs models, not Emacs Lisp
2020-07-15T16:44:49Z xristos: you could throw CLIM in with the CL spec and get a similar inflation
2020-07-15T16:44:59Z phoe: but they're an official™ part of elisp
2020-07-15T16:45:01Z xristos: the core language is much much smaller than CL
2020-07-15T16:45:22Z phoe: *this* is the core language
2020-07-15T16:45:32Z xristos: it really isn't
2020-07-15T16:45:44Z phoe: of course that one can carve out a subset that doesn't deal with buffers or windows or all the emacsisms stuffed in there
2020-07-15T16:45:49Z _death: if CLIM were part of the Common Lisp specification... anyway, I know what you mean, and now you know what I meant..
2020-07-15T16:46:15Z phoe: but puritans will then start whining that it isn't elisp anymore, and if you know just that tiny subset then you don't really know lisp.
2020-07-15T16:46:20Z phoe: s/know lisp/know elisp/
2020-07-15T16:47:00Z xristos: can you separate the Emacs models from Emacs Lisp and still have a coherent, useful language?
2020-07-15T16:47:03Z xristos: for me the answer is yes
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2020-07-15T16:47:14Z phoe: is that language still elisp?
2020-07-15T16:47:15Z xristos: if the answer was no, i'd agree with both of you
2020-07-15T16:47:19Z phoe: that's the troublesome question
2020-07-15T16:47:20Z xristos: phoe: Guile thinks so
2020-07-15T16:47:28Z _death: elisp doesn't have a standard, and so the language grows (or shrinks) with almost every change of the manual
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2020-07-15T16:48:32Z phoe: Guile thinks so to the point where its "elisp" still cannot be used to run most of emacs code though
2020-07-15T16:48:44Z phoe: but then again, we're diving into nomenclature here
2020-07-15T16:48:52Z phoe: and what really can be named "elisp"
2020-07-15T16:49:02Z phoe: I don't think it's fruitful to continue this particular discussion :D
2020-07-15T16:49:36Z theosvoitha: Is there any Lisp IRC Client I can use and learn to hack?
2020-07-15T16:49:51Z jackdaniel: beirc, but it has quite a few issues
2020-07-15T16:50:01Z phoe: birch, trivial-irc
2020-07-15T16:50:04Z xristos: theosvoitha: rcirc in Emacs
2020-07-15T16:50:08Z jackdaniel: there is also a library to sue irc from repl
2020-07-15T16:50:23Z theosvoitha: xristos: I will try that
2020-07-15T16:50:31Z beach: xristos: I think we agreed that theosvoitha wanted something other than Emacs Lisp.
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2020-07-15T16:51:04Z xristos: if you did, i missed it
2020-07-15T16:51:21Z jackdaniel: real lisp programmers have a hardware keyboards with two keys: #\( and #\), you program in binary code for your processor, but having parenthesis instead of 0 and 1 is a nice touch ;)
2020-07-15T16:51:25Z jackdaniel: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.7BT-m3F1_qru0lHDEkYHFQHaF_%26pid%3DApi&f=1
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2020-07-15T16:51:40Z jackdaniel: (here is a prototype of the keyboard with wrong keys)
2020-07-15T16:51:41Z phoe: jackdaniel: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Parenthesis_Hell
2020-07-15T16:51:47Z phoe: you obviously mean this lisp dialect
2020-07-15T16:51:52Z theosvoitha: I am running Portable. At it's bottom something called 'polling' is like increasing in number each second.
2020-07-15T16:52:02Z theosvoitha: *Portacle
2020-07-15T16:52:07Z phoe: theosvoitha: hmm, so it's trying to run Common Lisp
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2020-07-15T16:52:17Z phoe: what does the *inferior-lisp* buffer say?
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2020-07-15T16:52:42Z theosvoitha: 289 78%
2020-07-15T16:53:17Z phoe: no no, I mean the contents - can you give us a screenshot?
2020-07-15T16:53:55Z theosvoitha: yeah. l fear say i do not know some website to share.
2020-07-15T16:53:58Z theosvoitha: let me google
2020-07-15T16:53:59Z phoe: imgur.com
2020-07-15T16:56:23Z theosvoitha: https://imgur.com/a/XJT89PJ
2020-07-15T16:56:49Z phoe: oh snap
2020-07-15T16:57:02Z phoe: that's a Windows exception that happened for whatever bloody reason
2020-07-15T16:57:26Z theosvoitha: oh
2020-07-15T16:57:44Z phoe: 1722 is 0x000006BA... huh
2020-07-15T16:57:51Z phoe: I have no idea what is going on in there
2020-07-15T16:58:00Z theosvoitha: ok
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2020-07-15T16:58:03Z jackdaniel: does it try to open the port 0 for slime connection?
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2020-07-15T16:58:38Z theosvoitha: jackdaniel: really i do not know how to check that
2020-07-15T16:58:51Z jackdaniel: me neither, just guessing
2020-07-15T16:59:08Z jackdaniel: I'm not portacle user myself, so I can't tell
2020-07-15T16:59:37Z theosvoitha: WARNING: the Windows port is fragile, particularly for multithreaded
2020-07-15T16:59:38Z theosvoitha: code.  Unfortunately, the development team currently lacks the time
2020-07-15T16:59:38Z theosvoitha: and resources this platform demands.
2020-07-15T16:59:56Z jackdaniel: in the inferior lisp buffer press "1", then "enter", and then 8089 (and enter)
2020-07-15T17:00:08Z phoe: does this thing also happen if you download SBCL yourself and try to run it?
2020-07-15T17:00:10Z jackdaniel: you may also try demo version of the lispworks product
2020-07-15T17:00:14Z theosvoitha:    redefining EMACS-INSPECT (#<SB-PCL:SYSTEM-CLASS COMMON-LISP:T>) in DEFMETHOD
2020-07-15T17:00:14Z theosvoitha:  
2020-07-15T17:00:14Z theosvoitha: debugger invoked on a SB-WIN32:EXCEPTION in thread
2020-07-15T17:00:14Z theosvoitha: #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {10010C0523}>:
2020-07-15T17:00:14Z theosvoitha:   An exception occurred in context #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X0022CEE0): #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X0022DD80). (Exception code: 1722)
2020-07-15T17:00:27Z phoe: yes, that's the error from the screenshot
2020-07-15T17:01:14Z theosvoitha: phoe i never tried SBCL
2020-07-15T17:01:55Z theosvoitha: i just want a platform to learn CL. With text editor to work on daily files.
2020-07-15T17:02:09Z phoe: you might have chosen a wrong language for that
2020-07-15T17:02:18Z phoe: CL is an interactive language, which means that it needs some support from the text editor
2020-07-15T17:02:37Z phoe: the editor needs to be able to connect to the running Lisp and send commands to it and receive commands from it
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2020-07-15T17:02:49Z phoe: that's what slime/sly does for emacs.
2020-07-15T17:02:49Z _death: you can try entering 0 to continue.. is F a network drive?
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2020-07-15T17:03:29Z theosvoitha: let me try unzipping again
2020-07-15T17:03:57Z _death: maybe to a path without space characters..
2020-07-15T17:05:04Z theosvoitha: yes _death
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2020-07-15T17:09:14Z theosvoitha: same thing...
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2020-07-15T17:09:47Z _death: what happens if you continue?
2020-07-15T17:10:13Z theosvoitha: restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name):
2020-07-15T17:10:14Z theosvoitha:   0: [CONTINUE ] Return from the exception handler
2020-07-15T17:10:14Z theosvoitha:   1: [USE-VALUE] Try a port other than 1
2020-07-15T17:10:14Z theosvoitha:   2: [ABORT    ] Exit debugger, returning to top level.
2020-07-15T17:10:26Z theosvoitha: i try 1
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2020-07-15T17:10:54Z theosvoitha: but it returns back to the same screen
2020-07-15T17:11:15Z _death: oh.. yes, it should use a different port..
2020-07-15T17:11:55Z theosvoitha: Enter port (defaults to 2):
2020-07-15T17:11:59Z theosvoitha: which port should i enter
2020-07-15T17:12:47Z _death: say 6000
2020-07-15T17:13:10Z theosvoitha: same thing
2020-07-15T17:13:16Z theosvoitha: same screen appears
2020-07-15T17:13:41Z theosvoitha: debugger invoked on a SB-WIN32:EXCEPTION in thread
2020-07-15T17:13:41Z theosvoitha: #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {10010C0523}>:
2020-07-15T17:13:41Z theosvoitha:   An exception occurred in context #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X0022CEE0): #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X0022DD80). (Exception code: 1722)
2020-07-15T17:13:41Z theosvoitha:  
2020-07-15T17:13:41Z theosvoitha: Type HELP for debugger help, or (SB-EXT:EXIT) to exit from SBCL.
2020-07-15T17:13:41Z theosvoitha:  
2020-07-15T17:13:41Z theosvoitha: restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name):
2020-07-15T17:13:42Z theosvoitha:   0: [CONTINUE ] Return from the exception handler
2020-07-15T17:13:43Z theosvoitha:   1: [USE-VALUE] Try a port other than 6000
2020-07-15T17:13:43Z theosvoitha:   2: [ABORT    ] Exit debugger, returning to top level.
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2020-07-15T17:14:21Z phoe: Windows throws up for whatever reason
2020-07-15T17:14:29Z phoe: that restart is IMO a false flag
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2020-07-15T17:15:10Z _death: you can type :backtrace and paste the result (in a site like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/ )
2020-07-15T17:15:22Z theosvoitha: okay thanks a lot all guys. it was really a warm welcome here. I will keep idling here. I guess i asked too simple questions. next time i will ask in #clschool
2020-07-15T17:15:42Z phoe: theosvoitha: that isn't simple
2020-07-15T17:15:51Z phoe: I hoped that Portacle worked well on Windows
2020-07-15T17:16:05Z phoe: and still Windows finds its way to raise weird exceptions that I never would expect
2020-07-15T17:16:24Z theosvoitha: phoe: is there any way to use it elsewhere
2020-07-15T17:16:42Z phoe: theosvoitha: I'm about to suggest installing linux
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2020-07-15T17:17:14Z theosvoitha: i have some job software which i can't run in windows
2020-07-15T17:17:23Z theosvoitha: *can't run in linux
2020-07-15T17:17:34Z _death: theosvoitha: it looks like emacs and sbcl work.. you just get an error for some reason which is yet to be determined
2020-07-15T17:18:05Z theosvoitha: _death: do i really need to bother about this error. can't i go further and learn at least the basics and use emacs
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2020-07-15T17:19:29Z theosvoitha: afterall i can't go deep very soon
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2020-07-15T17:20:02Z _death: theosvoitha: well, you can just run sbcl and use that.. and you can run it from a shell within emacs.. but to get a good experience you need slime (which connects the two and provides the typical development environment) to work
2020-07-15T17:21:05Z theosvoitha: _death: okay let me learn whatever i have. who knows it may get fixed in future.
2020-07-15T17:21:28Z _death: theosvoitha: if you follow my previous instruction (type :backtrace and paste the result) you may get further help there
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2020-07-15T17:22:11Z _death: theosvoitha: if you just want to play with emacs lisp, you can also type M-x ielm RET (that's alt x, ielm, enter) to get an elisp toplevel
2020-07-15T17:23:30Z theosvoitha: _death: I guess i will attempt tomorrow. its too late here. i have saved all instructions.
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2020-07-15T17:25:32Z _death: theosvoitha: also you may ask on #shirakumo (where the author of Portacle dwells) about it or post a Portacle issue.. though the answer may be the same (give a backtrace)
2020-07-15T17:26:03Z phoe: first get a backtrace
2020-07-15T17:26:07Z phoe: and then post an issue on the github repo
2020-07-15T17:26:12Z phoe: stuff the backtrace in there.
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2020-07-15T17:26:25Z theosvoitha: I will try a backtrace tomorrow and will share backtrace.
2020-07-15T17:26:50Z theosvoitha: Better not attempt at #shirakumo
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2020-07-15T17:29:03Z theosvoitha: thanks everyone for this warm welcome. thanks phoe _death beach and all.
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2020-07-15T18:20:02Z puchacz: hi, has anybody used foil to communicate with Java?
2020-07-15T18:20:34Z puchacz: 2005 not good, author: Rich Hickey: good.
2020-07-15T18:21:07Z puchacz: I wonder if it is usable in long running servers, i.e. no memory leaks, knows when to drop objects from caches etc.
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2020-07-15T18:40:50Z phoe: okay, I think the HN discussion about the book is now done; the article fell off the frontpage
2020-07-15T18:41:13Z phoe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23843525 if anyone'd like to have a read, I'll run off and take a walk now
2020-07-15T18:42:00Z xristos: puchacz: ABCL seems like a better bet
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2020-07-15T19:35:15Z XachX: phoe: cheers for a readable thread despite predicable “objections”
2020-07-15T19:39:39Z puchacz: xristos: but I don't want to have the whole application in ABCL
2020-07-15T19:40:26Z puchacz: I have the application in SBCL
2020-07-15T19:40:53Z puchacz: or you mean just have small stub with ABCL and say hunchentoot on Java side?
2020-07-15T19:43:00Z _death: some months ago I played an hour or two with py4j, writing some lisp to play the part of py.. that approach didn't seem too time-consuming, though I had no use for it
2020-07-15T19:44:16Z puchacz: death: googling py4j, related to my Java question?
2020-07-15T19:45:14Z _death: puchacz: yes.. it allows limited interoperation.. I think I played with it because spark used it
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2020-07-15T19:46:30Z puchacz: I know how to access java from ABCL and I did a lot of it
2020-07-15T19:46:56Z puchacz: so writing hunchentoot handler in ABCL on Java side to allow SBCL application to call into would work.
2020-07-15T19:47:03Z puchacz: but maybe it is an overkill
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2020-07-15T19:51:32Z _death: here's what I wrote then https://gist.github.com/death/dedb220e62f6e35c2c0902c128d01015
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2020-07-15T19:52:38Z puchacz: thanks, so I would have to run Java part of py4j.
2020-07-15T19:52:44Z puchacz: ok :)
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2020-07-15T19:55:39Z _death: feel free to create a complete library out of that hack ;)
2020-07-15T19:56:07Z puchacz: cheers :)
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2020-07-15T20:42:36Z puchacz: death, if you are still here, Foil looks usable - if you ever need it
2020-07-15T20:42:45Z puchacz: I have not started it yet, just staring at Java code
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2020-07-15T20:47:58Z dra: Hi. I'm using Emacs + SLIME + Paredit. When editing Lisp files DEL/<backspace> is bound to paredit-backward-delete. In the REPL however it's bound to backward-delete-char-untabify. This breaks paren balancing. Here's the relevant part of my SLIME config: https://paste.debian.net/1156557/
2020-07-15T20:48:02Z dra: Any ideas?
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2020-07-15T20:51:46Z phoe: XachX: I know right
2020-07-15T20:51:59Z phoe: I actually found the objections to be surprisingly pleasant
2020-07-15T20:52:07Z puchacz: phoe: your book is still not available, is it?
2020-07-15T20:52:12Z puchacz: as ebook
2020-07-15T20:52:15Z phoe: I got several bugfix ideas for the book and - Apress will kill me - an idea for a new chapter
2020-07-15T20:52:20Z phoe: puchacz: yes, it only went to production now.
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2020-07-15T20:52:27Z puchacz: ok, tks
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2020-07-15T20:55:47Z dra: phoe: I read about your book on Hacker News. Looking forward to it!
2020-07-15T20:55:55Z phoe: dra: <3
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2020-07-16T00:42:42Z Xach: I am about to get a retired "enterprise" server that's about 5 years old, but it's got gobs of ram and disk and some fast "enterprise" CPUs. I'm going to see if Quicklisp builds improve at all with it.
2020-07-16T00:43:15Z Xach: Someone in my tiny town improbably has it for sale for cheap enough to give it a try.
2020-07-16T00:43:33Z Bike: nice.
2020-07-16T00:43:35Z Oladon: Xach: Nice! :)
2020-07-16T00:47:03Z Xach: hmm, maybe it's older than that. ad says "2 x 2.60Ghz E5-2670".
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2020-07-16T02:13:21Z ldb: good morning
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2020-07-16T03:39:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-07-16T03:41:01Z aeth: phoe: you were inquiring about that file from my util library, right? Oh, wow, it has already been a week. Oops. https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1594208608#1594208608
2020-07-16T03:41:59Z aeth: I've been reorganizing and cleaning up bits and pieces, and I'll probably write tests before deciding what to spin off. So I guess "this week" was too optimistic.
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2020-07-16T04:09:27Z beach: phoe: I read the exchange.  It is typical for people to object, and then, even though they are finally impressed by what you tell them, they keep quiet.  The overall impression, then, is that almost everybody is unconvinced, which is often depressing.  But that typically isn't the case, and from reading between the lines, I think that you converted a few.
2020-07-16T04:09:35Z beach: phoe: So, congratulations again!
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2020-07-16T05:46:52Z phoe: beach: I'm very satisfied with that exchange and, based on that text, don't think that almost everyone is unconvinced. If anything, the condition system is simply unknown to many of them and they can't imagine use cases for tools that are foreign to them.
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2020-07-16T05:47:32Z phoe: My book has sparked some discussion, though, and that's the important part. And I got a lot of book fixes from these comments even though the book hasn't been released yet. :D
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2020-07-16T06:05:17Z beach: phoe: Excellent!
2020-07-16T06:05:25Z sveit: when using the series library, sometimes functions cannot be optimized. that's fine, but the macro's warnings cause SBCL to decide the whole file compile failed, when in reality all that happened was that series was unable to optimize itself away, but the function still produces correct answers. is there a way to get around this?
2020-07-16T06:06:19Z beach: sveit: It may be ASDF that converts a warning to a compilation failure.
2020-07-16T06:06:36Z beach: sveit: There is an ASDF setting to fix that, but I forget the details.
2020-07-16T06:08:15Z sveit: beach: i don't think it's ASDF, since this error happens when I just directly compile the file
2020-07-16T06:08:23Z beach: Hmm, OK.
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2020-07-16T06:08:29Z sveit: (C-c C-k in Emacs)
2020-07-16T06:08:43Z phoe: sveit: it's slime
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2020-07-16T06:08:58Z phoe: it will say "compilation failed" where in reality it didn't fail
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2020-07-16T06:09:20Z phoe: mfiano encountered this just two or three days ago I think
2020-07-16T06:09:22Z sveit: phoe: i think it really does, since none of the other functions from that package exist.
2020-07-16T06:09:36Z phoe: oh, hm
2020-07-16T06:09:37Z sveit: it /is/ true that if you individually compile the functions, the warning is fake
2020-07-16T06:09:49Z sveit: or rather the warning is really, but the compile doesn't actually faile
2020-07-16T06:09:50Z phoe: do you hit Y or N after compiling the file?
2020-07-16T06:09:57Z phoe: when it asks if you want to load the FASL file
2020-07-16T06:10:07Z sveit: it doesn't even ask
2020-07-16T06:10:15Z phoe: weird!
2020-07-16T06:10:16Z sveit: not sure if it matters, but i am using sly
2020-07-16T06:10:22Z phoe: could you provide a test case?
2020-07-16T06:10:29Z phoe: I don't know about sly but I can check it on slime
2020-07-16T06:11:38Z sveit: (defun silly-length (s) (series:collect-length s))
2020-07-16T06:11:39Z sveit: (defun other-function (x) (+ 7 x))
2020-07-16T06:11:46Z sveit: just any package containing those two functions
2020-07-16T06:11:52Z sveit: then visit the file, C-c C-k
2020-07-16T06:11:59Z sveit: in a clean session
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2020-07-16T06:12:05Z LdBeth: let me have a try
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2020-07-16T06:12:48Z phoe: https://i.imgur.com/CXFdkJW.png
2020-07-16T06:12:55Z phoe: the top right buffer is the code
2020-07-16T06:13:03Z phoe: the bottom buffer is the warning
2020-07-16T06:13:18Z phoe: the *very* bottom is where slime asks if I nonetheless want to load the FASL file
2020-07-16T06:13:54Z phoe: I hit Y, and the functions are loaded
2020-07-16T06:13:58Z sveit: phoe: i see, it's not appearing for me, but maybe that is sly or Windows. not a huge deal since in this case i can fix it by suppressing the warnings.
2020-07-16T06:14:02Z phoe: which is the scenario that I described
2020-07-16T06:14:08Z phoe: I'd check if sly behaves the same way
2020-07-16T06:15:39Z sveit: thanks for the quick checks! a related question for people familiar with series: the most common error i get is "Non-series to series data flow from: series-var" where series-var is treated as a series in the entire expression. is there some declaration/way to tell the compiler that some series-var is a series?
2020-07-16T06:15:50Z sveit: (declare (type series:series series-var)) doesn't work
2020-07-16T06:16:09Z LdBeth: seems sly converts warnings to failures
2020-07-16T06:16:09Z LdBeth: i get exact same message pops up as phoe's
2020-07-16T06:16:09Z LdBeth: although I use sly
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2020-07-16T06:20:07Z phoe: compile-time warnings, yes
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2020-07-16T06:23:19Z LdBeth_: series cannot rely on type declarations, since it is not enforced by CL
2020-07-16T06:24:17Z sveit: LdBeth_: thanks, so is there a way to convince series that a variable will be a series?
2020-07-16T06:25:35Z LdBeth_: the only way is having the operation on the series determined at compile time
2020-07-16T06:26:35Z LdBeth_: i.e you cannot expect to pass a series operation as an argument on run time
2020-07-16T06:27:42Z sveit: LdBeth_: but what if i am ok with "failure"? i.e. i am ok with an error if the argument to "(defun silly-length (s) (series:collect-length s))" is not a series, but i would like to at least get rid of the warnings by promising that s must be a series
2020-07-16T06:28:02Z sveit: in this case the operation on the series is indeed determined at compile time, right
2020-07-16T06:28:03Z sveit: ?
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2020-07-16T06:36:29Z LdBeth: sveit: i see, it because the series implementation requires symbols from the :series package to do data flow analysis
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2020-07-16T06:47:43Z LdBeth: sveit: actually, besides import the :series package, (declare (optimizable-series-function 1)) is requred to be put into `silly-length' to have it successfully accpeted by optimizer
2020-07-16T06:49:12Z LdBeth: and it's use is explained in CLtL2
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2020-07-16T07:59:31Z vegai: debugging a python module whose restart takes about a minute
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2020-07-16T07:59:40Z vegai: great fun
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2020-07-16T08:10:21Z vegai: good'ol xkcd 303
2020-07-16T08:10:28Z vegai: in a dynamic language, heh
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2020-07-16T10:39:07Z flip214: I've got an sbcl image that starts up a hunchentoot server (including -quux) but hangs - no HTTP content served, Ctrl-C or kill doesn't work, I have to do kill -9.
2020-07-16T10:39:22Z flip214: when I (TRACE ..) a few functions, it works normally.
2020-07-16T10:39:46Z flip214: any ideas how to debug that? No swank server possible.
2020-07-16T10:40:20Z flip214: other images (different HTTP requests served, different business logic) with the same infrastructure works normally.
2020-07-16T10:40:27Z flip214: rebuilding this image doesn't help.
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2020-07-16T10:48:20Z phoe: Ctrl+C doesn't spawn some sort of SBCL debugger?
2020-07-16T10:48:39Z phoe: this would mean that it's in sb-sys:without-interrupts
2020-07-16T10:48:58Z phoe: and that would need attaching an external debugger to figure out what's going on.
2020-07-16T10:49:09Z phoe: oh wait, it works normally when you trace, but hangs if you don't trace them?
2020-07-16T10:50:21Z flip214: thanks, solved
2020-07-16T10:50:32Z phoe: huh! how? what was the issue?
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2020-07-16T10:51:02Z flip214: SIGUSR2 was bound by a thread for toggling debug logs on/off, but that's used by sbcl internally
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2020-07-16T10:51:12Z phoe: ha! I see
2020-07-16T10:51:29Z flip214: (bad choice, IMO - SIGUSR1 and USR2 are obvious choices for such application things)
2020-07-16T10:51:44Z flip214: why it did work when I TRACEd a few functions I can't say
2020-07-16T10:52:03Z phoe: must be sb-int::%*magic*
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2020-07-16T13:44:05Z scymtym: Xach: do you know whether there is an implementation of CFF/PostScript Type 1 fonts for CL?
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2020-07-16T13:53:44Z phoe: Online Lisp Meeting #5 announced: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/hsa0m2/
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2020-07-16T13:56:47Z beach: So it's on Wednesday?
2020-07-16T13:56:57Z phoe: This time, yes - Wednesday
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2020-07-16T13:57:05Z beach: OK.
2020-07-16T13:57:08Z beach: No problem for me.
2020-07-16T13:57:12Z phoe: whew
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2020-07-16T13:57:27Z phoe: sorry about that - I have been way too distracted with book stuff + dayjob stuff
2020-07-16T13:57:36Z beach: I fully understand.
2020-07-16T13:57:49Z beach: Does that mean I have a day or two more to finish the presentation and record it?
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2020-07-16T13:58:00Z beach: Not that I absolutely need that, but it wouldn't hurt.
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2020-07-16T13:59:18Z beach: I guess I'll still try to finish it tomorrow, but maybe in the afternoon instead of in the morning.
2020-07-16T13:59:53Z phoe: beach: yes, sure! as long as I get it on Tuesday or something
2020-07-16T14:00:03Z beach: Excellent, thanks!
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2020-07-16T14:38:56Z theosvoitha: Hello When i try to first run Portacle in Windows 7, i encounter following error: https://bpa.st/2DPQ
2020-07-16T14:39:45Z phoe: theosvoitha: try typing BACKTRACE in there and hitting Enter
2020-07-16T14:39:49Z phoe: that should provide us with more information
2020-07-16T14:39:56Z jasom: that looks bad
2020-07-16T14:41:40Z theosvoitha: There isn't any space to type my command. this is being shown there:  "Polling "C:/users/lenovo/appdata/temp/slimne.6408 ... 1132 (Abort with 'M-x slime-abort-connection)
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2020-07-16T14:42:13Z phoe: there should be - you should be able to type in the inferior lisp buffer
2020-07-16T14:42:21Z phoe: click on that buffer and type stuff in
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2020-07-16T14:43:23Z jasom: phoe: there's multiple warnings inside swank early on, that can't be normal, right?
2020-07-16T14:44:03Z phoe: jasom: they seem OK enough for me, nothing too suspicious.
2020-07-16T14:44:30Z theosvoitha: in 'inferior-lisp' buffer, this is being going on continuously
2020-07-16T14:44:34Z theosvoitha: Polling "C:/users/lenovo/appdata/temp/slimne.6408 ... 1132 (Abort with 'M-x slime-abort-connection)
2020-07-16T14:44:53Z theosvoitha: and the counting keeps increasing every second and am not able to type there
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2020-07-16T14:46:27Z theosvoitha: I type 'b' alphabet of "backstrace". Instantly it says 'b' is undefined and replaces that line again with Polling "C:/users/lenovo/appdata/temp/slimne.6408 ... 1132 (Abort with 'M-x slime-abort-connection)
2020-07-16T14:46:35Z jasom: theosvoitha: do you have a firewall of some sort running?
2020-07-16T14:46:51Z phoe: huh
2020-07-16T14:46:52Z theosvoitha: jasom: yes. Kaspersky.
2020-07-16T14:46:57Z phoe: weird stuff
2020-07-16T14:47:41Z jasom: it might be preventing slime from opening a socket for communication?
2020-07-16T14:47:57Z theosvoitha: let me disable it and try.
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2020-07-16T14:59:53Z Xach: scymtym: i don't know of one
2020-07-16T15:00:11Z Xach: scymtym: i started working on a postscript interpreter, hoping to maybe support them, but it has fallen by the wayside
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2020-07-16T15:07:33Z beach: And such a thing would be fantastic for music fonts, because the (to my knowledge) only free font for music that conforms to the new standard is in that format.
2020-07-16T15:08:10Z beach: So that font is going to be a must for Clovetree.
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2020-07-16T15:21:47Z Xach: PostScript is so nice and regular and simple
2020-07-16T15:21:57Z Xach: Maybe some student could be tricked into doing it
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2020-07-16T15:24:00Z jasom: theosvoitha: any luck?
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2020-07-16T15:28:46Z mfiano: Hello!
2020-07-16T15:29:21Z theosvoitha: jasom: No. I disabled Firewall completely, unzipped Portacle again and attempted but same issue.
2020-07-16T15:29:30Z mfiano: Would anyone good at making sense out of noisy C++ help me port to Lisp a very simple container data structure? The lightning talk that presents it is very lacking in details, and the code is very painful for me to read. It was recommended to me to ask here after failing for two days. :)
2020-07-16T15:29:36Z theosvoitha: shall i try the developer channel
2020-07-16T15:29:47Z jasom: theosvoitha: sure, or you can file an issue on github.
2020-07-16T15:29:57Z jasom: I don't have a windows VM handy
2020-07-16T15:30:05Z jasom: s/windows/windows 7/
2020-07-16T15:30:09Z theosvoitha: jasom: Okay. Thanks
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2020-07-16T15:33:40Z nirved: theosvoitha: if nothing else helps you might try an older release of portacle, sbcl 2.0 might not play well with windows 7. https://github.com/portacle/portacle/releases/
2020-07-16T15:35:04Z beach: Xach: Not any of mine.
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2020-07-16T15:51:24Z scymtym: beach: Xach: thank you. so i'm probably not wasting my time exploring this a bit
2020-07-16T15:51:52Z beach: Not at all.  On the contrary.
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2020-07-16T16:12:50Z jonathansc: Few others have reported same problem:
2020-07-16T16:12:52Z jonathansc: https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/sbcl-help/thread/84r3zoet5v.fsf%40gmail.com/#msg32803015
2020-07-16T16:12:53Z jonathansc: https://www.coder.work/article/2071695
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2020-07-16T16:18:00Z theosvoitha: Am trying to read "Practical Common Lisp"
2020-07-16T16:18:20Z theosvoitha: please suggest CL Implementation to follow it for windows.
2020-07-16T16:20:48Z theosvoitha: Book seem to suggest 'Lisp in a box' but it seems pretty old software
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2020-07-16T16:23:07Z aeth: theosvoitha: The most popular equivalent these days is probably portacle: https://portacle.github.io/
2020-07-16T16:23:08Z tychoish: I think SBCL works on windows.
2020-07-16T16:23:17Z tychoish: but I don't actually windows
2020-07-16T16:23:38Z gaqwas: theosvoitha, I second Portacle
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2020-07-16T16:24:00Z clothespin_: i use sbcl on windows
2020-07-16T16:24:17Z aeth: tychoish: iirc, SBCL works on Windows but it gives a warning that some features might not work, but everything works... although that could have been removed years ago (which still would've been like 5+ years later than it should have been)
2020-07-16T16:24:54Z aeth: The download tends to be an older version (and it is, it's 2.0.0), but afaik you could use it to bootstrap the latest off of git. http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html
2020-07-16T16:25:06Z theosvoitha: aeth: thanks couldn't get Portacle working on windows
2020-07-16T16:25:15Z tychoish: portacle looks like it includes emacs+sbcl and all of the glue that you need. if you already have emacs, then getting the emacs bits are easy enough but seems a bit personal :)
2020-07-16T16:25:38Z aeth: An alternative is Roswell, which is kind of an alternative to the official installer for every implementation, but I don't think that it comes with Emacs. https://github.com/roswell/roswell
2020-07-16T16:26:05Z theosvoitha: clothespin_: thanks sbcl i will try.
2020-07-16T16:26:11Z theosvoitha: thanks aeth.
2020-07-16T16:26:12Z aeth: (Roswell is much harder to use than Portacle ime.)
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2020-07-16T16:29:27Z aeth: You could also try installing a Linux version under WSL, but then you miss out on the graphical/fun stuff like https://borodust.org/projects/trivial-gamekit/ or https://github.com/vydd/sketch/ and so on.
2020-07-16T16:30:06Z theosvoitha: aeth: i am using win 7. i guess i need VM instead.
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2020-07-16T16:35:48Z jackdaniel: Xach: congrats
2020-07-16T16:35:59Z jackdaniel: (for the new dist release)
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2020-07-16T16:42:33Z Xach: thanks
2020-07-16T16:42:51Z Xach: i have also taken delivery of a very heavy old rack mount server which i hope to use to build quicklisp more quickly
2020-07-16T16:42:51Z nirved: sbcl-2.0.0 with emacs-25.1.1 on windows 8.1 works for me; also working are clisp-2.49 and ccl-1.11.5 (64bit); all of them installed at paths without spaces - C:/sbcl C:/clisp C:/ccl C:/emacs
2020-07-16T16:43:50Z aeth: If you're new to Lisp, you probably don't want to use clisp unless you compile from source because it hasn't had a release in about a decade even though it's still under development.
2020-07-16T16:44:45Z aeth: Oh, we just missed the 10 year birthday of the current stable version of CLISP... It was released 2010-07-07. https://clisp.sourceforge.io/
2020-07-16T16:45:32Z theosvoitha: As Windows 7 is not fit for Portacle or others am trying Virtual Machine. Please suggest if "Gentoo" Linux has proper Common Lisps softwares ported.
2020-07-16T16:46:41Z tychoish: Xach: what's the build time now?
2020-07-16T16:47:55Z aeth: SBCL should be in the repositories of every major distro. The others will be hit-or-miss, but Fedora (which I use) also has ECL and CLISP. Iirc, though, Gentoo is a compile-everything (instead of shipping binary executables) distro, so using Gentoo to avoid compiling a Lisp implementation sounds self-defeating.
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2020-07-16T16:50:16Z nirved: theosvoitha: dev-lisp/sbcl is at 2.0.5 (testing), dev-lisp/clozurecl is at 1.11.5 (stable)
2020-07-16T16:50:36Z theosvoitha: thanks aeth. any *BSD you suggest? Am practising OpenBSD to help in some open source word.
2020-07-16T16:50:45Z aeth: Lisp implementations are sort of incompatible with this approach because they usually require a Lisp implementation. e.g. SBCL needs to be compiled from SBCL or a handful of approved implementations. This is called 'bootstrapping' an implementation. So bootstrapping the SBCL compiler from scratch (instead of another version of SBCL) usually requires compiling the CLISP interpreter first.
2020-07-16T16:51:06Z aeth: I think this "ports" approach is used by Gentoo and all BSDs.
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2020-07-16T16:51:18Z aeth: (And a Mac OS X package manager)
2020-07-16T16:51:40Z theosvoitha: nirved: ok thanks
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2020-07-16T16:52:57Z theosvoitha: okay thanks aeth. Fedora i will try to run in my VM.
2020-07-16T16:53:08Z nirved: theosvoitha: gentoo used to require hours of compilation and configuration, might be faster on modern machines
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2020-07-16T16:54:04Z theosvoitha: nirved: but ask aeth suggest it is not fit for Lisp implementations
2020-07-16T16:54:43Z aeth: Well, it just will take much longer to compile.
2020-07-16T16:55:17Z theosvoitha: aeth: it actually does.
2020-07-16T16:55:36Z aeth: To compile SBCL on Fedora/etc., you download the SBCL from Fedora, which will be about 6-24 months out of date (ideally 6, since Fedora releases every 6 months)... but you probably don't need the absolute latest version.
2020-07-16T16:56:25Z aeth: Afaik (I would need to setup VirtualBox or something to test), Gentoo would require a full bootstrapping of SBCL, probably from CLISP.
2020-07-16T16:56:36Z theosvoitha: aeth: yes i don't need. as i said i just need to practice 'Practical Common Lisp" book examples
2020-07-16T16:57:27Z nirved: aeth: gentoo downloads a binary of a previous version, and uses it to compile the current one
2020-07-16T16:57:44Z aeth: nirved: ah, interesting, so they kind of have to sacrifice their philosophy there
2020-07-16T16:59:28Z nirved: aeth: well, it downloads the necessary compiler
2020-07-16T16:59:34Z aeth: nirved: thanks for the input, I've been reading their docs and I couldn't find any indication of that
2020-07-16T17:01:34Z nirved: aeth: it's in the ebuild, downloads the binary available from sf.net
2020-07-16T17:01:40Z lottaquestions: Hi all, if I wanted to trace a lambda, how would I do it? trace rejects raw lambdas as input with the error "xyz is not a function name, not tracing"
2020-07-16T17:04:29Z nirved: maybe wrap it in a lambda which prints something first
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2020-07-16T17:06:04Z lottaquestions: @nirved: Would you show what you mean with  a simple example?
2020-07-16T17:06:19Z Josh_2: Hi
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2020-07-16T17:09:49Z nirved: something like this: (lambda (&rest args) (format t "~&entering~%") (apply (lambda ...) args) (format t "~&exiting~%"))
2020-07-16T17:10:42Z lottaquestions: Thanks. let me try that
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2020-07-16T17:17:23Z nirved: lottaquestions: oh, it should be (... (prog1 (apply (lambda ...) args) (format t "~&exiting~%")))
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2020-07-16T17:26:15Z jasom: theosvoitha: FWIW I tried portacle on Win 10 and Win 8 and they both worked, but like I said I don't have a win 7 install.
2020-07-16T17:27:52Z DGASAU: minion: memo for seok: modern "traditional" DBMSes create indices for all columns with sufficient constraints upfront, plus they typically gather statistics on queries and adapt query execution plans accordingly. This alone typically makes SQL-based applications (in long-run use case) perform significantly better than those with manual in-memory joins and manual performance tweaks.
2020-07-16T17:27:52Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell seok when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-07-16T17:29:49Z DGASAU: minion: also, for the reference, there was a paper from Google that summarized all their story behind "no-SQL" movement, when after more than 5 years pushing for "no SQL for performance" they admitted that in reality this doesn't actually pay off.
2020-07-16T17:29:50Z minion: also, for the reference, there was a paper from Google that summarized all their story behind "no-SQL" movement, when after more than 5 years pushing for "no SQL for performance" they admitted that in reality this doesn't actually pay off: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/also%2C%20for%20the%20reference%2C%20there%20was%20a%20paper%20from%20Google%20that%20summarized%20all%20their%20story%20behind%20\"no-SQL\"%20movem
2020-07-16T17:30:07Z DGASAU: minion: memo for seok: also, for the reference, there was a paper from Google that summarized all their story behind "no-SQL" movement, when after more than 5 years pushing for "no SQL for performance" they admitted that in reality this doesn't actually pay off.
2020-07-16T17:30:07Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell seok when he/she/it next speaks.
2020-07-16T17:31:07Z DGASAU: (Sorry, I don't have the reference anymore. I only remember being surprised of the fact itself when I read it about 2012-14.)
2020-07-16T17:31:18Z jasom: actually, I just rememberd a win7 pro box I have; latest portacle runs on it fine.
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2020-07-16T17:34:04Z _death: jasom: I just tried the latest portacle on a win7 vm.. (it works)
2020-07-16T17:34:18Z jasom: _death: and I tried it on actual hardware
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2020-07-16T17:35:40Z _death: jasom: the person with the issue did not yet follow on the instructions given
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2020-07-16T17:57:31Z aeth: Well, this is somewhat annoying. The testing library parachute partially respects *print-case* as downcase. The test name will be downcased, but the package name will remain the true, upcased name. i.e. FOO::test
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2020-07-16T18:01:08Z aeth: this is sort of the worst of the four possible ways *print-case* could be respected here (both, one of either, or neither) since the package name is the less important part of the name
2020-07-16T18:08:11Z phoe: aeth: oh
2020-07-16T18:08:24Z phoe: could you give me an example?
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2020-07-16T18:10:20Z aeth: phoe: an example of what?
2020-07-16T18:10:46Z phoe: the print-case thing
2020-07-16T18:11:57Z aeth: in https://github.com/Shinmera/parachute the example is e.g. PARACHUTE::NUMBERS
2020-07-16T18:11:58Z phoe: you mean when printing the report?
2020-07-16T18:12:05Z aeth: with *print-case* :downcase it would be PARACHUTE::numbers
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2020-07-16T18:12:48Z aeth: I usually *print-case* :downcase before testing or macroexpanding because it gives more human-readable names at the expense of not giving a completely accurate picture since "foo" could be |foo| or FOO.
2020-07-16T18:12:48Z phoe: ooooh, yes, I see
2020-07-16T18:13:56Z phoe: let me figure out where in parachute this needs to get fixed
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2020-07-16T18:14:28Z scymtym: beach: Xach: the spec is pretty confusing but simple things are starting to work: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/type-2-interpreter.png
2020-07-16T18:14:55Z aeth: phoe: My guess would be somewhere around https://github.com/Shinmera/parachute/blob/a9fdae87abf3c5070d77a68c5a7c967da686f556/result.lisp#L244
2020-07-16T18:15:16Z aeth: (There are several FORMAT-RESULTs in that file)
2020-07-16T18:15:51Z borodust: aeth theosvoitha: just in case, trivial-gamekit should work on native SBCL for Windows too (WSL is not needed)
2020-07-16T18:16:11Z phoe: aeth: correct
2020-07-16T18:16:33Z aeth: borodust: Yes, sorry, I was unclear, I was giving it as an example of something that probably wouldn't work under WSL
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2020-07-16T18:17:48Z borodust: true, it would ask for X server to be present, but i'm unsure anyone tried WSL+X+gamekit at all
2020-07-16T18:18:10Z phoe: aeth: https://github.com/Shinmera/parachute/issues/21
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2020-07-16T18:18:52Z aeth: phoe: what's weird is a string name isn't downcased, either, e.g. "Test" shows up as FOO::Test
2020-07-16T18:19:06Z aeth: But strings probably shouldn't be downcased, unlike symbols, because case preservation is probably always the intended result.
2020-07-16T18:19:20Z borodust: theosvoitha: phoe already mentioned it, Atom+SLIMA worked for me too (I set it up fairly easily just test things out)
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2020-07-16T18:31:51Z xristos: scymtym: is that mcclim?
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2020-07-16T19:05:59Z scymtym: xristos: the debug visualization on the right side is. the left side is fontforge
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2020-07-16T19:16:49Z sjl_: What's the correct/idiomatic way to intercept the initargs to a metaclass to process them?  Normally I'd do this kind of thing by defining a constructor function make-whatever, but since this is a metaclass I don't think I can make defclass call a constructor.
2020-07-16T19:16:57Z sjl_: I have a metaclass MC with a slot FOO (whose initarg is :FOO).  I want users to be able to say (defclass x () () (:metaclass mc) (:foo symb)) and have the slot FOO of the class set to SYMB.
2020-07-16T19:17:02Z sjl_: If I don't do anything special, then the FOO slot gets set to a list (SOMETHING) instead of just SOMETHING, because defclass supports class options with multiple things in the list, e.g. (:foo a b c), so the actual initarg that gets passed to (make-instance 'mc ...) is :foo (SOMETHING).
2020-07-16T19:17:16Z sjl_: In my particular case, I don't want that.  I want to ensure they either provide a single symbol or nothing.  Overriding shared-initialize and hacking the initargs to call-next-method seems to work, but I'm wondering if there's a cleaner way.
2020-07-16T19:17:22Z sjl_: Example: https://paste.stevelosh.com/3f9550acb99b0b7cf576f3708c22efc0312754de
2020-07-16T19:20:33Z Bike: i don't know of any cleaner way. clasp (inheriting from ecl) actually does that internally for the slots: https://github.com/clasp-developers/clasp/blob/master/src/lisp/kernel/clos/standard.lsp#L229-L233
2020-07-16T19:20:41Z Bike: at least i think this is from ecl
2020-07-16T19:21:28Z sjl_: Interesting.  Okay, at least I'm not completely off base with this approach.  Thanks.
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2020-07-16T19:25:55Z phoe: sjl_: second
2020-07-16T19:26:06Z phoe: https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/netfarm/-/blob/master/Code/Objects/MOP/netfarm-class.lisp#L89
2020-07-16T19:26:17Z phoe: Gnuxie[m] was just talking about this case on #lispcafe
2020-07-16T19:26:24Z phoe: and no-defun-allowed
2020-07-16T19:26:29Z phoe: and the above thing seems to work
2020-07-16T19:26:42Z sjl_: I'm... not sure how that relates to my question?
2020-07-16T19:27:03Z phoe: oh wait, you want to just intercept them, not modify them
2020-07-16T19:27:07Z sjl_: Oh, are you talking about the line further down?
2020-07-16T19:27:11Z phoe: yes
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2020-07-16T19:27:37Z phoe: the defmethod at L95 plays with :direct-superclasses by calling patch-object-into-superclasses
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2020-07-16T19:27:46Z sjl_: Ah, yes.  That looks similar to what Bike linked, and is basically the same approach in my example, right?
2020-07-16T19:27:48Z phoe: I assumed this is the kind of interception you are talking about
2020-07-16T19:27:55Z phoe clicks Bike link
2020-07-16T19:28:09Z sjl_: Override the initialization method, patch the args to call-next-method
2020-07-16T19:28:35Z phoe: the only difference I see there is between a primary method and an around method, but that's effectively the same thing
2020-07-16T19:28:45Z sjl_: I forgot you could do both &rest and &key to avoid the boilerplate getf though, that's nice
2020-07-16T19:29:24Z phoe: yes, I use this extensively
2020-07-16T19:29:41Z phoe: in particular, `&rest args &key foo &allow-other-keys` is amazing
2020-07-16T19:30:26Z phoe: if your generic function accepts e.g. `&key foo bar baz quux fred` then the above effectively grabs `&key foo` and still allows you to `(apply #'call-next-method ... args)`
2020-07-16T19:32:11Z sjl_: Right, so something like https://paste.stevelosh.com/8e40f867cdc53060ed389bf2d7c93551363f23fc
2020-07-16T19:32:50Z phoe: I think so, yes
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2020-07-16T19:33:06Z sjl_: But yeah, I was mostly just wondering about the overall approach.  Sounds like overriding shared-initialize or initialize-instance and prepending the fixed version is a reasonable approach.
2020-07-16T19:33:12Z sjl_: Thanks
2020-07-16T19:33:14Z phoe: that's what I do myself
2020-07-16T19:33:25Z phoe: also forgive me the off-topic, but this gem just landed on one of my mailgroups
2020-07-16T19:33:31Z phoe: "We’re working to get Interlisp-D / Medley / Xerox Common Lisp released (with permissive licenses); see https://docs.google.com/document/d/17LkdOmdRtuZmvxS4flAf14Kl7oWmVTuimtyRSebxk4M/edit?usp=sharing for status and plans."
2020-07-16T19:33:48Z phoe: (well, it's not really off-topic, since it says Xerox Common Lisp!)
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2020-07-16T19:54:48Z jmercouris: well well
2020-07-16T19:54:57Z jmercouris: I didn’t even know Xerox had an implementation!
2020-07-16T19:55:03Z jmercouris: It doesn’t surprise me though
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2020-07-16T20:05:18Z jackdaniel: since they are going to opensource it, and interlisp is one of cl ancestors, I don't think it is much on the offtopic side, rather it is ontopic
2020-07-16T20:05:21Z jackdaniel: thanks for sharing
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2020-07-16T20:31:49Z aeth: I wonder if there's a way to use a condition at the end of parachute:test so I can exit the process on failure, for CI. asdf:test-system always returns T iirc, which makes its return value useless, but I don't want to directly call parachute:test if I can avoid it.
2020-07-16T20:36:44Z jasom: phoe: is CLtL1 common lisp on-topic?  I think the Xerox CL is pre-ANSI.
2020-07-16T20:38:51Z jackdaniel: I'm sure it would be more offtopic had we been discussing merits of interlisp or how to make something work on cltl1;
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2020-07-16T20:46:29Z phoe: jasom: I honestly have no idea
2020-07-16T20:47:10Z phoe: aeth: parachute:test returns a meaningful value, you can inspect it for any failed test results
2020-07-16T20:47:40Z phoe: otherwise, you can do that in ASDF:TEST-SYSTEM - call parachute:test, inspect the returned value, signal an error if any failed results are there
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2020-07-16T21:10:01Z phoe: beach: scymtym: Eclector gets a honorable mention in my book for being programmable using restarts/handlers. Thank you for it!
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2020-07-16T21:14:04Z phoe: minion: memo for pfdietz: thank you for mentioning the foo:bar reader issue on HN. I've added a chapter to my book that refers to it.
2020-07-16T21:14:04Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pfdietz when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-07-16T21:21:21Z phoe: minion: memo for pfdietz: I will also allow myself to include parts of your comment in the book text and to include your name in the book's Hall of Fame.
2020-07-16T21:21:21Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pfdietz when he/she/it next speaks.
2020-07-16T21:22:22Z aeth: phoe: yeah, but ASDF testops seem to ignore meaningful values, thus requiring some degree of spaghetti
2020-07-16T21:22:33Z aeth: I guess I'll just not use asdf:test-system for the moment
2020-07-16T21:23:01Z phoe: aeth: the "consensus" seems to be that the tests should signal an error in case of failure.
2020-07-16T21:23:11Z phoe: and everything else is a pass.
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2020-07-16T21:39:43Z aeth: phoe: but the annoying part is that none is provided
2020-07-16T21:40:27Z aeth: Hmm... Wow, parachute's compatability is useless because it nicknames itself to "fiveam" guaranteeing that any large project is going to be unable to use parachute-fiveam because one of its dependencies almost certainly is using the real fiveam.
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2020-07-17T03:18:24Z v3ga: Does anyone here use sly with emacs? I'm fairly familiar with emacs as my daily driver. Slime starts with no problem but after installing the sly package emacs doesn't seem to recognize it at all.  M-x sly (sly doesn't exist even though i've installed and deleted, reinstalled several times)
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2020-07-17T03:26:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-07-17T03:27:45Z v3ga: hola
2020-07-17T03:30:16Z loke: v3ga: No. I never understood why anyone would use sly (which has less features than SLIME)
2020-07-17T03:32:15Z v3ga: loke: oh? i read that it had more. if I can ignore just stick with slime then that's fine
2020-07-17T03:35:46Z v3ga: ok, well that solves that
2020-07-17T03:36:51Z beach: scymtym: Wow, nice work with type 2 fonts!
2020-07-17T03:36:54Z beach: phoe: Eclector is more the work of scymtym these days.
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2020-07-17T04:12:14Z loke: v3ga: The main missing feature of Sly is that it doesn't support presentations. That's crazy to me, as it's one of th emost useful features of SLIME.
2020-07-17T04:22:16Z v3ga: loke: hmm, well slime it is.  I'd actually never heard of Sly until a few days ago and in my readings they were making it sound like it was SLIME with additional features. I'm already turned off by the installation process so SLIME is fine
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2020-07-17T06:31:44Z v3ga: sbcl is much lighter than clojure/jvm isn't it?
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2020-07-17T06:35:57Z seok: how hard would it be to build a regex search engine for data stored in file system?
2020-07-17T06:35:57Z minion: seok, memo from DGASAU: modern "traditional" DBMSes create indices for all columns with sufficient constraints upfront, plus they typically gather statistics on queries and adapt query execution plans accordingly. This alone typically makes SQL-based applications (in long-run use case) perform significantly better than those with manual in-memory joins and manual performance tweaks.
2020-07-17T06:35:57Z minion: seok, memo from DGASAU: also, for the reference, there was a paper from Google that summarized all their story behind "no-SQL" movement, when after more than 5 years pushing for "no SQL for performance" they admitted that in reality this doesn't actually pay off.
2020-07-17T06:36:37Z flip214: seok: there's already cl-ppcre for Perl-compatible regular expressions. and reading files is also easy...
2020-07-17T06:37:06Z seok: how would that scale for large datasets tho?
2020-07-17T06:37:54Z seok: @dgasau thanks! this helps a lot
2020-07-17T06:39:55Z flip214: seok: It's O(n) anyway... unless you're asking about creating an index for repeated querying, then I'd look at PgSQL first
2020-07-17T06:40:29Z seok: yeah I guess pg would have better solution than O(n)
2020-07-17T06:40:33Z seok: thx
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2020-07-17T08:46:35Z contrapunctus: How difficult would it be for someone to write cross-platform MIDI bindings for CL, if they have no knowledge of MIDI or C? 🤔
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2020-07-17T08:48:40Z flip214: which midi bindings?
2020-07-17T08:48:54Z flip214: parsing midi files? I did that ~10 years ago or so
2020-07-17T08:50:08Z phoe: doesn't such a thing already exist somewhere?
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2020-07-17T09:00:34Z contrapunctus: flip214: MIDI playback
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2020-07-17T09:01:24Z contrapunctus: phoe: I didn't see anything on awesome-cl, but ISTR being surprised to see that RtMIDI had CL bindings too.
2020-07-17T09:02:15Z flip214: isn't MIDI playback (to hardware) just pushing to a serial port?
2020-07-17T09:02:29Z flip214: or locally running a program to render the sounds
2020-07-17T09:02:41Z flip214: I guess I just don't understand what you want to achieve
2020-07-17T09:03:31Z contrapunctus: Send MIDI to (software or hardware) samplers/recorders etc.
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2020-07-17T09:12:53Z beach: contrapunctus: MIDI playback is trivial as flip214 points out.
2020-07-17T09:13:27Z beach: contrapunctus: I think you should start such a suite of programs.
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2020-07-17T09:13:45Z beach: contrapunctus: Are you planning to create a GUI as well for some parts of it?
2020-07-17T09:14:16Z beach: contrapunctus: If so, I recommend using McCLIM.
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2020-07-17T09:16:38Z contrapunctus: beach, flip214: does 'just pushing to a serial port' also work for sending MIDI to software?
2020-07-17T09:17:18Z contrapunctus: beach: yeah, I want to make a GUI...and I'm interested in McCLIM 🙂
2020-07-17T09:18:22Z beach: It depends on how the software wants the MIDI events.  Since MIDI is real-time, there is no information about on/off times, so software must add that.  MIDIfile is one representation that adds such information.  I would think most software would recognize that format.
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2020-07-17T09:24:32Z luna_is_here: contrapunctus: You could take a look at PortMidi library. As far as I remember it also had the possibility to create virtual midi devices that you could use to send midi to software. The API is not too complex so it would be easy to create a CL wrapper.
2020-07-17T09:25:10Z beach: I think it would be much more interesting to see a pure Common Lisp solution.
2020-07-17T09:25:58Z luna_is_here: I'm not sure about the virtual device part.
2020-07-17T09:26:12Z luna_is_here: Maybe I am confusing something here...
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2020-07-17T09:28:39Z luna_is_here: beach: Yeah. But if you want to send midi to hardware, you need to use the OS's interface (unless you are using DOS), meaning you have to create wrappers for every OS that you want to run on.
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2020-07-17T09:29:36Z contrapunctus: luna_is_here: oh, bugger, that's why I couldn't find it - it was PortMidi, not RtMIDI 😅 thanks for reminding me. Lisp bindings! https://sourceforge.net/p/portmedia/code/HEAD/tree/portmidi/trunk/pm_cl/
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2020-07-17T09:29:37Z jackdaniel: I think that there is a difference between using bindings to a library and using bindings to interface with the os
2020-07-17T09:30:10Z beach: I agree with jackdaniel.
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2020-07-17T09:30:46Z luna_is_here: contrapunctus: :D The problem is, that RtMidi is the library that has the virtual midi device... Not PortMidi :(
2020-07-17T09:31:02Z luna_is_here: contrapunctus: If that is an important feature...
2020-07-17T09:31:26Z jackdaniel: I remember once (as a joke) I've made a linux kernel driver to play rttl mario bros melody on a buzzer
2020-07-17T09:31:41Z contrapunctus: But while sending MIDI to hardware would be nice, sending it to other software is more important for me 😶
2020-07-17T09:32:19Z contrapunctus: luna_is_here: what's a virtual MIDI device? 😶 (I really don't know anything about MIDI, except as a user...)
2020-07-17T09:32:47Z phoe: it's a program that accepts MIDI commands and can send MIDI commands, just like a physical MIDI device that is connected to a computer through a cable
2020-07-17T09:33:47Z luna_is_here: contrapunctus: If you want to send MIDI to, let's say, a DAW, then the DAW will look for a MIDI device to read and write data from and to. Hence, if you want to send midi to a software, most of the time, you get there by emulating a midi device.
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2020-07-17T09:34:48Z luna_is_here: Just because most software will just ask the OS for the midi devices available, and use those.
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2020-07-17T09:35:43Z luna_is_here: Depending on what you plan exactly, you can also write a VST, LV2 or AU plugin. That could be possible with ECL.
2020-07-17T09:35:49Z contrapunctus: Oh. So I need to either make bindings for RtMIDI or Rewrite It In Lisp? 😶
2020-07-17T09:37:39Z luna_is_here: From looking at the documentation, I fear that PortMidi does not allow for the creation of virtual midi device. So if that is what you want, then I assume: yes.
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2020-07-17T09:42:04Z luna_is_here: Otherwise you could use loopMIDI on Windows. (I do not know if there is something similar for other OS's)
2020-07-17T09:42:28Z beach: Are there still people using Windows?
2020-07-17T09:42:46Z luna_is_here: :D
2020-07-17T09:42:51Z phoe: beach: there sadly are
2020-07-17T09:42:56Z beach: Wow!
2020-07-17T09:43:44Z contrapunctus: 😄
2020-07-17T09:46:28Z contrapunctus: So how would I go about making Lisp bindings for a C++ library? Didn't get any relevant results.
2020-07-17T09:46:51Z phoe: you're up for a world of pain
2020-07-17T09:46:56Z beach just lost interest in this project.
2020-07-17T09:47:10Z phoe: the standard way is to create a C interface in between, compile that, and interface Lisp with it
2020-07-17T09:47:30Z contrapunctus: Yow.
2020-07-17T09:47:40Z phoe: doing it with raw C++ is insanity e.g. because of the way it does name mangling
2020-07-17T09:47:49Z phoe: or use Clasp which compiles Lisp with C++ code
2020-07-17T09:48:19Z phoe: basically, C++ is a horrible abomination to interface with
2020-07-17T09:48:21Z contrapunctus: phoe: but that would mean it wouldn't be implementation portable 🙁
2020-07-17T09:49:00Z phoe: contrapunctus: what do you mean, implementation portable?
2020-07-17T09:49:07Z phoe: you mean a Lisp implementation or a C++ implementation
2020-07-17T09:49:24Z phoe: Lisp is not a problem because you have CFFI which is a portability library
2020-07-17T09:49:44Z phoe: C++ is not a problem when you have C, because C names are not mangled
2020-07-17T09:49:58Z contrapunctus: I mean, then I'd be stuck with Clasp and someone using e.g. SBCL wouldn't be able to use the library.
2020-07-17T09:50:04Z phoe: obviously
2020-07-17T09:50:32Z phoe: Clasp-compiling C++ with Lisp won't work with other implementations.
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2020-07-17T09:51:05Z phoe: so a C mediation layer is one of the two options I'd consider for real, practical purposes
2020-07-17T09:51:38Z contrapunctus: phoe: is there any resource I can study, for doing that?
2020-07-17T09:51:40Z phoe: the other is going beach way and writing everything in Lisp and/or using or reviving some already existing Lisp software, which I don't think would be that hard
2020-07-17T09:52:16Z beach: There is a lot of music software at IRCAM and they used Common Lisp a lot.
2020-07-17T09:52:22Z phoe: ^
2020-07-17T09:52:24Z beach: Maybe some of it is now open source.
2020-07-17T09:52:39Z beach: Try OpenMusic for instance.
2020-07-17T09:52:48Z contrapunctus: Whoa. That would mean studying so many MIDI APIs on so many platforms 😳
2020-07-17T09:52:59Z phoe: what do you mean, many MIDI APIs on many platforms
2020-07-17T09:53:10Z phoe: you can stick with just one if you're lucky
2020-07-17T09:53:28Z phoe: also, once you understand MIDI as a protocol, you can implement it anywhere
2020-07-17T09:53:30Z contrapunctus: (Although, well, probably still less work and more play than dealing with C/C++)
2020-07-17T09:53:38Z phoe: I think that I agree with that
2020-07-17T09:53:45Z phoe: almost everything is better than dealing with C++
2020-07-17T09:54:13Z phoe: and when dealing with C++ is the only real viable option for your use case, you get insane^Wambitious projects like Clasp sprout into life
2020-07-17T09:54:24Z contrapunctus: hehe
2020-07-17T09:55:09Z phoe: but then again, that's because drmeister has truckloads of C++ science code that he needs to use from Lisp and at the same time cannot feasily rewrite in Lisp.
2020-07-17T09:55:54Z luna_is_here: contrapunctus: RtMidi has a C API also.
2020-07-17T09:56:47Z phoe: so tl;dr either use native Lisp software (which is greatly preferable and requires just a bit of software archaeology now and then), or bind against C foreign interfaces when native Lisp stuff is not available and not feasible to write
2020-07-17T09:59:53Z contrapunctus: luna_is_here: ah, thanks for pointing that out. 🙂
2020-07-17T10:00:01Z beach: contrapunctus: I suggest you look at OpenMusic.  It is written in Common Lisp and it can be downloaded for Linux.
2020-07-17T10:00:52Z beach: There are also versions for MacOS and Windows apparently.
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2020-07-17T10:15:29Z contrapunctus: So many roads to choose from 😵
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2020-07-17T10:47:10Z luna_is_here: Did SWIG not have CL support at one point?
2020-07-17T10:48:39Z phoe: it did, v2; v3 removed it
2020-07-17T10:48:59Z luna_is_here: Awww :/
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2020-07-17T11:02:40Z TMA: luna_is_here: I were attempting to resurrect it, but the amount of time my brain is capable to make progress is severely constrained by other more pressing tasks.
2020-07-17T11:02:56Z TMA: I was, even
2020-07-17T11:03:10Z luna_is_here: I see.
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2020-07-17T11:53:04Z contrapunctus starts reading the CFFI tutorial
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2020-07-17T12:12:01Z beach: Oh well.
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2020-07-17T12:12:09Z beach: I tried my best.
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2020-07-17T12:43:06Z contrapunctus: beach: I'll need that even if want to make a cross platform Lisp MIDI library...right? e.g. to interface with ALSA MIDI.
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2020-07-17T12:46:15Z luna_is_here: contrapunctus: If you want to interface with hardware or software and not just write midi files, yes.
2020-07-17T12:47:49Z contrapunctus: I suppose one could implement a new Lisp MIDI API too, but I don't know if that will be worth the required effort.
2020-07-17T12:48:47Z contrapunctus: OpenMusic seems to use JUCE, so if they made a wrapper around that, maybe I could split it out into a project of its own.
2020-07-17T12:49:26Z luna_is_here: Sounds possible.
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2020-07-17T12:53:35Z lukego: I'm rusty and not up to date on how the cool kids do control flow and data structures these days. what are some options for converting a two-dimensional array into a flat list?
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2020-07-17T12:53:59Z phoe: you mean a list of lists?
2020-07-17T12:54:06Z phoe: or a list of all elements in row major order?
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2020-07-17T12:54:55Z phoe: in the latter case, (loop with array = #2A((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9)) for i below (array-total-size array) collect (row-major-aref array i))
2020-07-17T12:55:00Z lukego: the latter. Or I'd settle for just a way to iterate through all items
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2020-07-17T12:55:15Z lukego: oh that is neat!
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2020-07-17T12:55:17Z phoe: gods bless ROW-MAJOR-AREF
2020-07-17T12:55:48Z lukego: I don't think I've really used multidimensional arrays in lisp before. I was surprised and delighted to see the reader syntax for literals.
2020-07-17T12:55:50Z jackdaniel: conformally displaced row-major-aref winks from the depths of hell
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2020-07-17T12:57:32Z _death: (coerce (make-array (array-total-size array) :displaced-to 2d-array) 'list)
2020-07-17T12:57:46Z phoe: _death: also nice
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2020-07-17T12:58:58Z lukego: I've done so much Lua lately that I catch myself thinking that ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE should be expensive since checking the size of each row takes O(log n) time to binary search for the last populated element..
2020-07-17T12:59:26Z lukego: (not that it would matter now anyway)
2020-07-17T13:00:12Z _death: you may also need to supply the element-type
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2020-07-17T13:21:44Z lukego: I'd like to generate some randomized test data. Ideally starting with simple examples and gradually becoming more complex. Basically like in a property-based testing framework. Any recommendations?
2020-07-17T13:22:11Z phoe: screamer comes to mind, but it solves a slightly different problem
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2020-07-17T13:27:52Z lukego: Maybe check-it? https://github.com/DalekBaldwin/check-it
2020-07-17T13:35:52Z _death: fiveam also has some random testing support
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2020-07-17T13:37:09Z lukego: check-it code looks really nice to me at first glance. heavy on a pattern matching library called OPTIMA that looks nifty too
2020-07-17T13:37:26Z lukego: seems like the generators can be used independently of the testing framework (but I'll probably want that later)
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2020-07-17T13:47:05Z lukego: hm but being part of an automated test framework there maybe aren't the right knobs for generators. Seems like the random sampling takes a uniform value up to a size limit, whereas I'd probably like some other random distributions e.g. log transform to bias towards small values while still permitting bigger ones. maybe can put that into the framework. reads...
2020-07-17T13:49:12Z jmercouris: OPTIMA is not nifty, not in my opinion
2020-07-17T13:49:12Z jmercouris: I don't like pattern matching libraries
2020-07-17T13:49:17Z jmercouris: cryptic syntax
2020-07-17T13:49:24Z jmercouris: it is not so verbose to write (equal x y) is it?
2020-07-17T13:49:52Z jackdaniel: that's not what pattern matching is for
2020-07-17T13:50:00Z jmercouris: that's what is often used for
2020-07-17T13:51:02Z jackdaniel: by whom? ,)
2020-07-17T13:51:06Z lukego: check-it source is really easy to read with the patterns, for me at least who's worked in patterny languages sometimes in the past (otherwise surely cognitive overhead)
2020-07-17T13:52:24Z lukego: guess it's also one of those things where if you're doing pattern matching you'll tend to choose basic data structures to suit
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2020-07-17T14:50:10Z Josh_2: Hi
2020-07-17T14:51:18Z Josh_2: Wheres the best place to look for examples of the MOP in use?
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2020-07-17T14:56:56Z Gnuxie[m]: what do you want to do with it?
2020-07-17T14:57:16Z lukego: I feel dirty when I call SB-INT:COLLECT. Is there an obvious way to launder that e.g. via alexandria or something?
2020-07-17T14:57:52Z phoe: lukego: uiop:while-collecting, unless you're allergic to uiop
2020-07-17T14:58:26Z lukego: thanks!
2020-07-17T15:01:02Z jackdaniel: uiop:while-collecting has a bug, I don't recall what exactly
2020-07-17T15:01:17Z jackdaniel: but it goes belly up for some inputs
2020-07-17T15:01:35Z Gnuxie[m]: Josh_2: Postmodern/Mito/json-mop have readable examples for slot classes and other basic use cases (but honestly h*ck ORM)
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2020-07-17T15:02:27Z jackdaniel: lukego: collect originates from cmucl, here is one of many utility copies:  https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/blob/master/Core/clim-basic/utils.lisp#L716
2020-07-17T15:02:59Z phoe: the issue is that I don't know a commonly used library that includes this macro
2020-07-17T15:03:07Z phoe: flip214: maybe alexandria2 would consider adding it?
2020-07-17T15:03:07Z lukego: I'm actually fine with being non-portable it just feels icky to reference SB-INT in source code because it looks "internaley." Back when I used CMUCL I was more than happy to use EXT:COLLECT :)
2020-07-17T15:03:29Z phoe: s/whole post/maybe you would consider adding it to alexandria2?/
2020-07-17T15:03:36Z jackdaniel: lukego: just copy it to your utilities file and forget about the issue
2020-07-17T15:03:41Z lukego: Or otherwise how would you convert alexandria's MAP-COMBINATIONS into a COMBINATIONS function that accumulates into a list?
2020-07-17T15:04:03Z Josh_2: Gnuxie[m]: I'm not sure, I need to get a gist of what I can do with it before I can understand how I can apply it to current projects
2020-07-17T15:04:06Z jackdaniel: the library "collectors" has somewhat similar equivalent
2020-07-17T15:04:16Z Josh_2: I will check what you have suggested, thanks Gnuxie[m]
2020-07-17T15:05:14Z lukego: jackdaniel: yeah fair enough. I did the next best/worst thing of updating my defpackage with (import-from #:sb-int #:collect)
2020-07-17T15:05:25Z jackdaniel: that works too, sure
2020-07-17T15:06:31Z lukego: I'm curious though how other people usually do "collecting" with "mapping" functions though? I mean for data that's not supported by loop accumulating keywords and doesn't provide a reduce-like accumulating version
2020-07-17T15:06:59Z jackdaniel uses ext:collect on ecl and climi::collect in mcclim :)
2020-07-17T15:07:03Z phoe: a LAMBDA over PUSH tends to save the day
2020-07-17T15:07:28Z jackdaniel: don't forget about nreverse
2020-07-17T15:07:59Z phoe: oh right, (let ((x '())) ... (lambda (y) (push y x)) ... (nreverse x)))
2020-07-17T15:08:25Z lukego: ok yeah that's decent too but I'll stick with collect
2020-07-17T15:08:53Z lukego: I have missed this about Lisp, curating one's own personal programming style :)
2020-07-17T15:12:15Z beach: Don't take that possibility too far.
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2020-07-17T15:13:05Z phoe: "with great expressiveness comes great possibilty of making Lisp as readable as poorly golfed Perl"
2020-07-17T15:16:36Z contrapunctus: lol
2020-07-17T15:17:22Z lukego: shoe changing foot quickly :-) thought I was clever doing (collect ((comb)) (alexandria:map-combations #'comb list)) ...) but of course COMB is a not a function...
2020-07-17T15:18:16Z lukego: not immediately obvious to me that COLLECT needs to use MACROLET instead of LABELS under the hood either...
2020-07-17T15:19:08Z phoe: I think that FLET is enough though
2020-07-17T15:19:36Z phoe: at least my lambda example up there has a single anonymous function for collecting stuff
2020-07-17T15:19:47Z contrapunctus: beach: I had a look at the 'ancient CL version' of OpenMusic on GitHub...it seems to be GPL, whereas I prefer to Unlicense my work. 😔 I guess I'll look into wrapping the RtMIDI C API, which seems like the next most pragmatic route.
2020-07-17T15:20:59Z phoe: ancient? https://github.com/openmusic-project/openmusic has a release from this year
2020-07-17T15:21:03Z phoe: but that is GPL as well
2020-07-17T15:21:09Z jackdaniel: the macro collect uses macrolet to allow having any collecting method, not only collect list
2020-07-17T15:23:55Z lukego: collectors library looks nice but code doesn't seem to match implementation. (collecting (map-combinations #'collect list)) should do what I want but the macro doesn't parse those args
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2020-07-17T15:31:04Z contrapunctus: phoe: oh, I confused it with CommonMusic 🤦‍♀️
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2020-07-17T15:34:14Z lukego: so my ultimate compromise for now is to take the nice COLLECTING interface from the COLLECTORS documentation, which isn't really supported by that library as installed from quicklisp, and port it onto the top of SB-INT:COLLECT. good enough for now. https://gist.github.com/lukego/1714405ba893250812bf522a1e4f1b97
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2020-07-17T15:39:34Z lukego: then you can (defun permutations (list) (collecting (map-permutations #'collect list))) which is a darling I haven't murdered yet :)
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2020-07-17T15:51:04Z lukego: So next naive question perhaps leading to a hot library tip: how would you compute the list of all subsets of the set LIST?
2020-07-17T15:53:00Z phoe: wait a second
2020-07-17T15:53:05Z phoe: LIST === (OR CONS NULL)
2020-07-17T15:53:10Z phoe: that's when it comes to types
2020-07-17T15:53:23Z phoe: what exactly do you want to do?
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2020-07-17T15:53:26Z jackdaniel: that's not a problem, the resulting list will have a nil as one of subsets
2020-07-17T15:54:10Z lukego: (subsets (1 2 3)) => (() (1) (2) (3) (1 2) (1 3) (2 3) (1 2 3))
2020-07-17T15:54:56Z lukego: I find myself writing a recursive function but it feels like this should exist and that makes me wonder if I'm missing another alexandria/uiop sort of library
2020-07-17T15:55:08Z lukego: or simply doing an apropos search on the wrong keyword..
2020-07-17T15:55:51Z lukego consults that awesome-lisp page again..
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2020-07-17T15:57:50Z jackdaniel: lukego: I have something
2020-07-17T15:57:53Z jackdaniel: hang on
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2020-07-17T15:58:55Z phoe: (let ((x '()) (list '(1 2 3 4 5))) (loop for i from 0 below (length list)  do (alexandria:map-combinations (lambda (y) (push y x)) list :length i)) x)
2020-07-17T15:59:05Z phoe: could also use DOTIMES instead of LOOP
2020-07-17T15:59:34Z contrapunctus: Doesn't loop let you say 'with x'?
2020-07-17T15:59:42Z phoe: oh right, it does
2020-07-17T15:59:59Z jackdaniel: what phoe wrote is ~same what I had in mind
2020-07-17T16:00:50Z pve: lukego: is that the powerset?
2020-07-17T16:01:02Z pve: https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Power_set#Common_Lisp
2020-07-17T16:01:08Z phoe: pve: it is
2020-07-17T16:01:11Z lukego: phoe: oh nice. I can combine that with my little NIH macro and have (collecting (dotimes (i (length list)) (map-combinations #'collect list :length i))) which is just fine
2020-07-17T16:01:58Z lukego: thank you pve! I lacked that term and it's the right one
2020-07-17T16:03:19Z pve: lukego: np
2020-07-17T16:03:33Z lukego: I like this little collecting/collect pair from COLLECTORS interface because I'm not sure that I've ever actually had multiple collectors with COLLECT nor given a collector a useful name
2020-07-17T16:03:46Z lukego: Jolly nice lisping with you all. nice weekend!
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2020-07-17T16:11:17Z dlowe: Seems like you could make a list type if you could do (deftype my-list (or (cons my-type my-list) null))
2020-07-17T16:11:26Z dlowe: *a nicer list type
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2020-07-17T16:16:21Z Bike: recursive types introduce complications into the system that i, at least, wouldn't know how to solve. for example under the usual recursive definition of subtype, #1=(cons t #1#), which i would understand as the type of infinite circular lists, is a subtype of the bottom type NIL
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2020-07-17T16:46:57Z frgo: Hi all: question: I need to copy a large (2GB) in 255 byte chunks into foreign memory using CFFI. Would I use something like https://github.com/jetmonk/waaf-cffi for this?
2020-07-17T16:47:18Z frgo: s/large /large file /
2020-07-17T16:48:06Z frgo: Or just cffi:with-foreign-pointer and loop ?
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2020-07-17T17:01:41Z phoe: maybe try mmapping it instead
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2020-07-17T17:49:57Z frgo: phoe: Yeah. But but but  ... How to get that into foreign memory "easily"...
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2020-07-17T18:03:46Z phoe: frgo: mmap it and memcpy?
2020-07-17T18:04:51Z frgo: phoe: Hmpf - yup. You are right - it's the simple things that sometimes are hard to find ... Thanks!
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2020-07-17T18:39:38Z Josh_2: Do we have a 'seen' command in here?
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2020-07-17T18:49:28Z aeth: I think minion has a seen command? iirc
2020-07-17T18:49:42Z aeth: Josh_2: I usually just use this though: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp
2020-07-17T18:50:17Z aeth: you can search "written by" and keep expanding the time interval until the person you are looking for has spoken, but keep in mind that it's rate limited to a very noticable length, maybe 5-10 seconds... https://irclog.tymoon.eu/search?channel=freenode%2F%23lisp
2020-07-17T18:50:49Z aeth: There's no all-channel search, though, so a bot has the advantage that it might have seen someone on another channel who hasn't spoken here recently.
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2020-07-17T19:07:25Z Josh_2: pjb hasn't been around for a while
2020-07-17T19:07:29Z Josh_2: or did he change his name?
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2020-07-17T19:21:14Z aeth: pjb was online recently, but hasn't said anything
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2020-07-17T19:54:36Z Josh_2: aeth: okay sweet
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2020-07-17T20:53:18Z seok: how do I call a function with variables in a list?
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2020-07-17T20:56:02Z ebrasca: seok: Can you explain more what do you whant?
2020-07-17T20:56:37Z jackdaniel: (apply function arg-list)
2020-07-17T20:56:58Z Josh_2: Did Ravenpack fill that junior position in Marbella?
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2020-07-17T21:03:55Z Gnuxie[m]: Josh_2: pjb got banned i think
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2020-07-17T21:10:22Z jackdaniel: he got unbanned few days later
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2020-07-17T21:15:02Z Josh_2: banned in here??
2020-07-17T21:15:24Z younder: not for the moment
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2020-07-17T21:16:29Z younder: Truth be told I write drone software these days. Hardly any Lisp. I just hang around for old times sake.
2020-07-17T21:16:40Z Josh_2: write drone software in Lisp :P
2020-07-17T21:18:22Z mercourisj: anyone know of any Lisp applications for photo management?
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2020-07-17T21:22:09Z Josh_2: i'm looking back at some of the code I wrote over a year and trying to fix it up, It's dreadful oof
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2020-07-17T21:22:43Z younder: The easiest way is use a shell language interface like the one provided by imagemagic. Shell out to that and it should provide what you need.
2020-07-17T21:22:48Z mercourisj: that's good news Josh_2
2020-07-17T21:22:50Z mercourisj: that means you are growing
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2020-07-17T21:23:13Z mercourisj: I'm talking about photo library management, browsing, viewing, sorting, etc
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2020-07-17T21:24:11Z younder confesses to mosty use imagemagic from PHP..
2020-07-17T21:25:20Z mercourisj: maybe a good candidate for a CLIM application
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2020-07-17T21:26:05Z younder: Image processing is a lot of work.. Hope you have a lot of friends ;)
2020-07-17T21:26:36Z younder: A frontend to OpenCV  might be a start.
2020-07-17T21:27:45Z torbo: What's the best way to parse a string representation of a rational number (i.e. "3/4") into a rational number in CL?
2020-07-17T21:28:51Z younder: read
2020-07-17T21:29:02Z Bike: easiest is READ but it'll do bad things on malformed input. you could use POSITION to get the solidus, and then PARSE-INTEGER both sides.
2020-07-17T21:30:37Z torbo: Great, thank you both!
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2020-07-17T21:43:42Z jasom: there is also the library parse-number
2020-07-17T21:46:12Z younder: Bike is a PhD. He writes robust code for industrial applications. I am guessing turbo isn't there yet.
2020-07-17T21:46:23Z Bike: what the hell?
2020-07-17T21:48:33Z younder: Bike a was a peripheral developer on you compiler
2020-07-17T21:48:57Z younder: ^ O
2020-07-17T21:49:04Z younder: ^ I
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2020-07-17T21:56:02Z aeth: here? I remember pjb being banned from #scheme for a short while for only being there to promote CL... that might be what you're thinking of.
2020-07-17T21:58:38Z Bike: as jackdaniel said, already, less than an hour ago, he was banned from here for a few days
2020-07-17T21:58:38Z scymtym: i think people are referring to this: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1592014365#1592014365
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2020-07-17T22:04:36Z younder: I don't know by I have not been here. Left andforgotten and mostly irrelevant. If I say someting that sounds like misinformation, please let me know.
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2020-07-17T22:20:23Z Josh_2: seems like a petty ban
2020-07-17T22:20:56Z Josh_2: This community is pretty small, last thing needed is isolating individuals over petty stuff like being abrasive
2020-07-17T22:22:30Z White_Flame: there's a difference between being abrasive and being intentionally obtuse, screaming that everybody's correct and applicable answers are absolutely wrong in expletive laden screeds
2020-07-17T22:23:27Z Josh_2: Hey, that's just pjb xD
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2020-07-17T22:24:05Z Josh_2: I started here when I was basically 100% new to programming and I got that impression from him pretty early, I still appreciate the walls of text to this day
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2020-07-17T22:35:38Z younder: White_Flame, sounds like a bot
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2020-07-17T23:07:53Z dlowe: It's *more* important in a small community to boot people who spread bullshit.
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2020-07-17T23:23:08Z stylewarning: dlowe: CL:BULLSHIT isn’t a part of ANSI Common Lisp. *DEFAULT-BULLSHIT-DEFAULTS* may have bullshit or other components of bullshit, though.
2020-07-17T23:23:22Z aeth: pjb gives particularly bad advice on IRC when the question is about the type system ime... His advice is consistently to never check types and just let things fail at the point where they fail, but ime that just leads to a random NIL showing up 20 functions away from where it was generated and a waste of a day.
2020-07-17T23:23:49Z torbo: jasom: Thanks!
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2020-07-17T23:29:52Z johntalent: How would it be possible to use ABCL with The Godot Game Engine?
2020-07-17T23:30:29Z aeth: ABCL is Java-based and not very popular, at least on IRC, so you would probably have better odds with ECL, which is designed to be embedded in C applications.
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2020-07-17T23:37:46Z aeth: johntalent: It looks like all other (not GDScript, VisualScript, or C#) languages are supposed to interface through the GDNative C++ bindings. https://docs.godotengine.org/en/stable/getting_started/step_by_step/scripting.html#gdnative-c
2020-07-17T23:38:08Z aeth: ECL or even Clasp (the latter is a work-in-progress) seems like it would be a lot less painful than trying to bring in the entirety of the Java environment
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2020-07-17T23:39:56Z aeth: johntalent: I found one result: https://github.com/borodust/bodge-godot
2020-07-17T23:55:56Z borodust: aeth johntalent: i guess i need to add a warning there or smth - those bindings are highly experimental - i never used them it was just an experiment to see how hard it would be to generate bindings for godot
2020-07-17T23:56:16Z borodust: it was easy to, but i didn't go any further, so those might actually not work ;p
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2020-07-18T00:03:57Z borodust: once i'm done with c++ support in :claw i might get back and actually try them out :)
2020-07-18T00:04:53Z borodust: hopefully, that doesn't mean never, cuz i'm 95% done implementing it and only need to finish the other 95%
2020-07-18T00:07:10Z johntalent: aeth: wow.
2020-07-18T00:07:20Z johntalent: aeth: looks good thanks. somewhat recent too.
2020-07-18T00:08:35Z johntalent: thanks borodust
2020-07-18T00:08:38Z johntalent: thank you aeth.
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2020-07-18T00:10:13Z borodust: i hope that wasn't about my bindings to godot api...
2020-07-18T00:10:51Z borodust: but i've added a warning so it should be alright now :/
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2020-07-18T03:11:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-07-18T03:35:03Z not_a_seagull: I'm very, very new to Lisp. What does "The function has an odd number of arguments in the keyword portion" mean?
2020-07-18T03:35:13Z not_a_seagull: There are not an odd number of arguments to my keyword setup.
2020-07-18T03:35:44Z beach: Show the call to the function.
2020-07-18T03:36:13Z beach: It means your function looks somewhat like this: (defun foo (x y &key a b...) ...)
2020-07-18T03:36:30Z beach: So it takes two required arguments and then a bunch of keyword arguments.
2020-07-18T03:36:47Z not_a_seagull: https://gist.github.com/not-a-seagull/76a4e7468494efe8be4a1cf75724a140
2020-07-18T03:36:56Z beach: So in this case, a call looks like (foo <x> <y> :a <a> :b <b> ...)
2020-07-18T03:37:50Z beach: Since I don't know ltk, you also need to tell me the lambda list of MAKE-CANVAS.
2020-07-18T03:38:14Z beach: It looks like there must be a required argument missing.
2020-07-18T03:38:26Z not_a_seagull: Idk. I don't know LTK either.
2020-07-18T03:38:39Z beach: So why are you using it?
2020-07-18T03:39:00Z not_a_seagull: It's the first GUI library I found, and it uses TK
2020-07-18T03:39:06Z not_a_seagull: What else should I use?
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2020-07-18T03:39:58Z beach: I think it is a horrible idea to use a foreign library if you are a Common Lisp newbie.  You are going to run into all kinds of trouble.  In fact, it's a bad idea to start learning Common Lisp by attempting a GUI application.
2020-07-18T03:40:18Z beach: However, since you are using it...
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2020-07-18T03:41:03Z beach: You made a call (ltk:make-canvas ..).  You must have seen somewhere the definition of the function make-canvas, or you would not have typed that code.  No?
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2020-07-18T03:41:32Z not_a_seagull: Well, I tried to use "make-instance" because that's what all the documentation I could find says to use
2020-07-18T03:41:41Z not_a_seagull: But it turns out "make-instance" doesn't exist anymore
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2020-07-18T03:41:55Z not_a_seagull: So I look in the source code
2020-07-18T03:42:02Z not_a_seagull: And I see that "make-canvas" is exported
2020-07-18T03:42:09Z beach: MAKE-INSTANCE is a standard Common Lisp function, so it won't go away.
2020-07-18T03:42:21Z not_a_seagull: Oh, it's not an LTK thing?
2020-07-18T03:42:34Z beach: Again, it is a horrible idea to learn Common Lisp this way.
2020-07-18T03:43:20Z not_a_seagull: Yeah that seems to work. Thank you for your help.
2020-07-18T03:43:40Z beach: Using a GUI library, and especially one based on foreign code, is going to require some knowledge about the language itself.
2020-07-18T03:44:52Z Oladon: not_a_seagull: before you continue to reject beach's wise advice, consider well that by doing so you're essentially concluding that somehow, you know better than a veteran Lisper what is and is not a good way to learn Lisp.
2020-07-18T03:45:16Z Oladon: not_a_seagull: I recommend picking up a copy of the book Land of Lisp, and starting with that, and _then_ attempting your GUI application.
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2020-07-18T03:46:04Z not_a_seagull: Oladon: alright, I guess I'm being rash. I've been looking through Pratical Common Lisp, is that a good book?
2020-07-18T03:46:28Z Oladon: not_a_seagull: It is, but in my opinion it's not as good for beginners to the language as Land of Lisp is.
2020-07-18T03:46:35Z Oladon: beach: How long've you been practicing Lisp?
2020-07-18T03:47:05Z Oladon: not_a_seagull: Also Land of Lisp was written by a genius and has cartoons
2020-07-18T03:47:10Z beach: Oladon: Let's see, since 1977 or so.
2020-07-18T03:47:28Z Oladon: not_a_seagull: Cough cough ^
2020-07-18T03:48:14Z not_a_seagull: Alright, I'll put a bookmark in Practical Common Lisp and pick up Land of Lisp.
2020-07-18T03:48:26Z Oladon: (On a side note, show me another language that anyone actually still enjoys after that long...)
2020-07-18T03:49:39Z not_a_seagull: Fortran?
2020-07-18T03:49:40Z beach: I recently watched an animated video on YouTube showing the evolution in popularity of different programming languages.  It was amusing.  I mean the definition of "popularity" is probably bogus.
2020-07-18T03:49:57Z beach: But the interesting part was how languages come and go.
2020-07-18T03:50:01Z Oladon: beach: It's generally considered on such a short scale, nods
2020-07-18T03:50:08Z Oladon: I guess it has to be because of that fact
2020-07-18T03:50:16Z beach: Like Ruby was SO HOT just a few years back and now it seems dead.
2020-07-18T03:50:19Z Oladon: Yep
2020-07-18T03:50:44Z not_a_seagull: I haven't been programming for long but I remember ASP.NET from a while back.
2020-07-18T03:50:46Z Oladon: I still get candidates whose entire coding experience (of 3-5 years) is in Ruby... not interested.
2020-07-18T03:50:54Z not_a_seagull: Now it's mostly replaced by Blazor IIRC
2020-07-18T03:51:29Z beach: not_a_seagull: Also note that there is #clschool for truly basic Common Lisp questions.
2020-07-18T03:51:30Z Oladon: beach: I laughed to myself as I typed the initial parenthetical because 90% of languages with "known" names nowadays weren't even _around_ in '77.
2020-07-18T03:51:42Z not_a_seagull: beach: thank you, I'll keep that in mind
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2020-07-18T03:52:25Z beach: Oladon: Yeah, people go to a lot of trouble to avoid learning Common Lisp.  In particular, they keep inventing new languages that don't even come close.
2020-07-18T03:52:30Z Oladon: Indeed.
2020-07-18T03:53:16Z not_a_seagull: That's why I'm coming to Lisp, to be honest. I feel like it's something I should've learned when I first started.
2020-07-18T03:53:31Z beach: That, I agree with.  But it is never too late.
2020-07-18T03:53:58Z Oladon: Or they "invent" this Great New Feature and release a new version of their language of choice (because their language of choice requires releasing a new version to add a feature...)... and the Lispers are like "?? We've had that since '59..."
2020-07-18T03:54:28Z beach: Exactly!
2020-07-18T03:55:04Z beach: Plus, we don't need a new release to add new syntax.  We have macros and we have the compiler available at run-time.
2020-07-18T03:55:15Z Oladon: Right, that was the ellipsis there :)
2020-07-18T03:55:23Z beach: Ah, OK.
2020-07-18T03:55:45Z not_a_seagull: I read in practical lisp that the first iteration of object orientation was a library rather than a compiler update
2020-07-18T03:56:07Z beach: Correct.
2020-07-18T03:56:19Z beach: And the compiler is still not much involved in the object system.
2020-07-18T03:56:31Z Oladon: not_a_seagull: Which reminds me... as you begin to discover Lisp, you'll run into library repositories that haven't been updated in 8-10 years. Be not afraid; they're probably just done and don't need updates.
2020-07-18T03:57:13Z not_a_seagull: Oladon: I've seen a couple. I figure that, if anything isn't modern enough, it shouldn't be excruciatingly hard to do a pull request or fork.
2020-07-18T03:57:19Z Oladon: Heh.
2020-07-18T03:57:28Z Oladon: There's very little "aging" in Lisp code the way you're used to.
2020-07-18T03:57:48Z not_a_seagull: How often does lisp code really age?
2020-07-18T03:57:59Z Oladon: Core Lisp? Basically never.
2020-07-18T03:58:01Z beach: not_a_seagull: The Common Lisp Object System is a wonderful example of software design, and a wonderful example of what Common Lisp can do.
2020-07-18T03:58:30Z Oladon: nodnod
2020-07-18T03:58:39Z Oladon: I'm in awe of the CLOS.
2020-07-18T03:58:56Z not_a_seagull: That's cool. I have JS code from six months ago that's already considered aged.
2020-07-18T03:59:03Z Oladon: That's what I mean. :)
2020-07-18T04:00:37Z not_a_seagull: That being said, are there any considerations I should keep in mind when using packages from quicklisp?
2020-07-18T04:00:58Z Oladon: Not really; Xach does an excellent job weeding out anything that doesn't build.
2020-07-18T04:01:44Z not_a_seagull: Nice
2020-07-18T04:01:45Z Oladon: Quicklisp != npm
2020-07-18T04:02:24Z beach: Oladon: Do you mean (/= Quicklisp npm)? :)
2020-07-18T04:02:35Z not_a_seagull: ha3
2020-07-18T04:02:51Z Oladon kowtows in apology
2020-07-18T04:03:48Z not_a_seagull: I mostly say because I've been dabbling in Rust for the past few months, and sometimes there will be a package that has security vulnerabilities
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2020-07-18T04:05:54Z beach: Common Lisp code could certainly contain malware, but I think it would be discovered fairly quickly, and then Xach would remove it from Quicklisp.
2020-07-18T04:06:20Z not_a_seagull: Cool beans
2020-07-18T04:07:51Z beach: Standard Common Lisp code can not have security vulnerabilities of the kind you get in low-level languages like C, but it is certainly possible for some library code to alter the code generator of the compiler by using some implementation-specific functionality.
2020-07-18T04:08:21Z avalos`: Why cannot?
2020-07-18T04:08:32Z beach: Well, "can not" is a bit too strong I guess.  If you use (safety 0) it is up to the implementation.
2020-07-18T04:09:24Z not_a_seagull: Lisp has a safety check? rad
2020-07-18T04:09:34Z beach: avalos`: Common Lisp code does not have access to arbitrary addresses, and that includes the stack.
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2020-07-18T04:10:37Z avalos`: Yeah, but I think that "sandboxing" can be cracked somehow.
2020-07-18T04:11:12Z avalos`: Just like Meltdown and Spectre were not thought to even be possible.
2020-07-18T04:11:30Z xristos: there is no sandbox in CL
2020-07-18T04:11:38Z beach: not_a_seagull: The standard is actually pretty fuzzy about stuff like that.  Many situations represent undefined behavior.  Luckily, all major implementations are safe when the SAFETY optimize quality is high.
2020-07-18T04:11:56Z xristos: if you evaluate 3rd party Lisp code, it's game over
2020-07-18T04:12:15Z avalos`: xristos: That's why I used "quotes", because not having access to memory can be a way of sandboxing.
2020-07-18T04:12:27Z xristos: and you can have memory corruption in CL, with full safety
2020-07-18T04:12:37Z xristos: if you use foreign functions
2020-07-18T04:12:39Z avalos`: xristos: Exactly!
2020-07-18T04:12:55Z beach: ... or if you modify the code generator of the compiler.
2020-07-18T04:13:16Z beach: That is one reason I invented first-class global environments.
2020-07-18T04:13:31Z avalos`: Are standard CL implementations interpreted?
2020-07-18T04:13:43Z beach: avalos`: Not the modern ones, no.
2020-07-18T04:13:59Z not_a_seagull: Doesn't SBCL compile down to machine code?
2020-07-18T04:14:03Z beach: Yes.
2020-07-18T04:14:06Z avalos`: Oh.
2020-07-18T04:14:35Z avalos`: Well, then it depends on how secure is the generated code, I guess.
2020-07-18T04:14:37Z beach: avalos`: There is a tendency to confuse "interactive" and "interpreted".
2020-07-18T04:15:11Z not_a_seagull: Is SBCL like PyPy where it only compiles after the function is run a certain number of times?
2020-07-18T04:15:15Z beach: People with insufficient CS knowledge who see an interactive programming system often assume that it is interpreted.
2020-07-18T04:15:17Z avalos`: beach: It's a bit confusing how "interactive" works without "interpreted", though, at least to me.
2020-07-18T04:15:31Z avalos`: beach: But I'm aware about the differences.
2020-07-18T04:15:50Z beach: avalos`: The code is compiled on the fly and then executed.  That's all there is to it.
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2020-07-18T04:16:00Z xristos: it's not like PyPy (JIT), SBCL does ahead-of-time compilation
2020-07-18T04:16:05Z avalos`: JIT.
2020-07-18T04:16:19Z not_a_seagull: Oh it compiles on the fly? Cool.
2020-07-18T04:16:22Z avalos`: xristos: Oh.
2020-07-18T04:17:11Z xristos: you could have a CL implementation use a JIT compiler (clisp?)
2020-07-18T04:17:25Z xristos: but SBCL (and CCL) are AOT compilers
2020-07-18T04:18:00Z beach: But since a typical Common Lisp implementation, including SBCL, gives the user full access to the code, it is perfectly possible for some user code to modify the code generator, and then the code is obviously no longer safe.
2020-07-18T04:18:08Z avalos`: So, then, yeah, how secure a CL program is can be up to the impl, probably.
2020-07-18T04:18:31Z not_a_seagull: Is SBCL reasonably secure?
2020-07-18T04:18:34Z xristos: .. and -mainly- the program itself
2020-07-18T04:18:39Z avalos`: I don't think it's perfect.
2020-07-18T04:18:41Z avalos`: Nothing is perfect.
2020-07-18T04:18:44Z avalos`: It depends.
2020-07-18T04:18:48Z xristos: SBCL won't save you if you manually manage foreign memory
2020-07-18T04:18:58Z xristos: you can still have race conditions
2020-07-18T04:19:09Z xristos: you can still have all sorts of filesystem and permission issues
2020-07-18T04:19:22Z avalos`: Yeah, that's what I mean.
2020-07-18T04:20:03Z xristos: does it make it easier to avoid certain classes of security issues? yes
2020-07-18T04:20:11Z beach: not_a_seagull: It does a lot of run-time checks, so you get pretty good feedback when you make mistakes.  So in that respect it is pretty secure.  But, again, if you load arbitrary external code, all bets are off.
2020-07-18T04:20:29Z avalos`: xristos: Yeah, that's for sure.
2020-07-18T04:20:36Z not_a_seagull: I see
2020-07-18T04:20:43Z not_a_seagull: It's like that one google engineer said
2020-07-18T04:20:48Z avalos`: beach: Is it similar to Rust?
2020-07-18T04:20:51Z not_a_seagull: "The minute you load an attacker's code, it's over"
2020-07-18T04:21:13Z beach: avalos`: I don't see any similarities between Common Lisp and Rust.
2020-07-18T04:21:36Z avalos`: I mean, the run-time checks.
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2020-07-18T04:21:44Z not_a_seagull: Doesn't Rust do compile-time checks?
2020-07-18T04:21:53Z avalos`: Yes.
2020-07-18T04:22:03Z avalos`: A lot.
2020-07-18T04:22:45Z avalos`: I've tried Rust only few times, but the compiler is indeed strict.
2020-07-18T04:22:51Z beach: avalos`: The semantics of Common Lisp include dynamic typing, so there is a limit to how much can be verified at compile time.
2020-07-18T04:23:52Z avalos`: That's a trade off for flexibility, but still, I imagine it has tools to avoid some sort of mistakes.
2020-07-18T04:24:40Z avalos`: I know little about CL, I haven't even used it, but I've learned a lot of Scheme, which shares a lot of concepts with CL.
2020-07-18T04:24:41Z beach: Again, I don't see many similarities between Common Lisp and Rust.  In fact, Rust seems to be based on the false idea that garbage collection must be slower than manual memory management.  At last according to an important member of the group that manages the Rust specification.
2020-07-18T04:25:18Z avalos`: beach: Well, it can be. It depends.
2020-07-18T04:26:07Z avalos`: Sometimes, manual memory management can give you a lot of performance.
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2020-07-18T04:26:53Z avalos`: Garbage collection works for most stuff, but still, there are cases where you want more control over memory and extra efficiency.
2020-07-18T04:27:40Z avalos`: The Linux kernel was never really rewritten in C++, because of those reasons.
2020-07-18T04:28:46Z avalos`: Well, C++ is not garbage collected (afaik), but still, it does a lot of things behind the curtains.
2020-07-18T04:28:59Z beach: And Lisp, on the other hand, was based on what Paul Wilson later characterized as "liveness is a global property", so that it is essentially impossible to write a correct program with manual memory management, that is both modular and fast.  Now, granted, you don't always need modularity and you don't always need performance.
2020-07-18T04:29:47Z avalos`: Interesting.
2020-07-18T04:30:19Z avalos`: But still, I think it depends on what you mean by "manual".
2020-07-18T04:30:41Z avalos`: And what you mean by "modularity" and "performance".
2020-07-18T04:30:49Z beach: To make modularity possible, people using languages with manual memory management often introduce things like smart pointers or reference counters.  And then they take a factor 50 or more performance hit compared to garbage collection.
2020-07-18T04:32:04Z beach: avalos`: I mean if you pass an object to a module, modularity dictates that you shouldn't need to know whether that module keeps a reference to your object, so that it is still alive, or whether it does not, so you need to deallocate the space taken up by it.
2020-07-18T04:32:20Z avalos`: Good point.
2020-07-18T04:32:23Z beach: So you have two choices...
2020-07-18T04:32:39Z beach: 1. Know what the module does internally, so your code is no longer modular.
2020-07-18T04:32:59Z beach: 2. Copy the object, or use reference counters.  Then your code is no longer fast.
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2020-07-18T04:35:27Z avalos`: What if you don't need too many checks? Garbage collection can be a bit too much, especially when you perform expensive IO operation or else.
2020-07-18T04:35:47Z beach: That is a case when modularity is not so much needed.
2020-07-18T04:36:20Z avalos`: True.
2020-07-18T04:36:45Z beach: But people using languages without automatic memory management often believe that their code is fast, just because the compiler is "known to produce fast code".  But then they ruin the performance by replacing a register move by a function call, a test, and several memory accesses.
2020-07-18T04:37:38Z beach: However, since they never compare the performance of their code to a similar code written in a language with automatic memory management, they feel safe in their belief that their code is fast.
2020-07-18T04:41:17Z xristos: note that you have the option for manual memory management (with some constraints) in CL
2020-07-18T04:41:37Z beach: So we have huge amounts of code written by hordes of programmers who think that "we need all the speed we can get", but that code is not particularly fast in the first place.  Plus, they took an order of magnitude more time to produce that code, and the result is full of security vulnerabilities.  That's the sad state of software production these days.
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2020-07-18T04:47:48Z markasoftware: I'm today learning about format's conditionals and loops, it's pretty crazy
2020-07-18T04:47:59Z markasoftware: i wish the same people who designed (format) got to design regex
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2020-07-18T07:11:27Z phoe: oh boy
2020-07-18T07:11:37Z beach: Hey phoe.
2020-07-18T07:11:45Z phoe: vseloved's Programming Algorithms book will also get an Apress edition
2020-07-18T07:11:48Z phoe: hey beach
2020-07-18T07:12:22Z beach: Nice!  That one still needs a lot of work.
2020-07-18T07:12:28Z beach: I gave up after a while.
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2020-07-18T07:18:42Z phoe: you might want to contact vseloved in order to be a technical reviewer for it
2020-07-18T07:19:15Z phoe: I know too little about algorithms to be able to make any sane reviews
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2020-07-18T07:23:52Z beach: I don't think I will.  Too many times he disagreed with my remarks and didn't take them into account.  Plus, a lot of the problem are still related to the English language.
2020-07-18T07:24:08Z beach: The algorithms themselves are probably fine.
2020-07-18T07:24:14Z beach: He's the expert after all.
2020-07-18T07:24:24Z phoe: I see
2020-07-18T07:24:37Z contrapunctus: beach, xristos: re: this performance paradox, is there any writeup which explores this phenomenon in detail?
2020-07-18T07:24:40Z beach: But the code and the text both need a lot of work to be acceptable, and he basically doesn't agree.
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2020-07-18T07:24:55Z beach: contrapunctus: I don't think so, no.
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2020-07-18T07:25:57Z beach: contrapunctus: There is very little work done in the domain of comparison between programming languages.  And for good reasons.  The cost of such an investigation would be huge, if it is to be scientifically valid.
2020-07-18T07:26:11Z contrapunctus: It'd be nice to have something of the sort, to make an attempt to educate people. Many may not know about the manual memory management in CL, either, which would be a welcome addition to such a writeup.
2020-07-18T07:27:48Z beach: People just won't believe you unless you can point to hard evidence, and maybe not even then.  The manual memory management in Common Lisp would be highly specific to an implementation.
2020-07-18T07:28:58Z contrapunctus: The other day someone (who had written some CL packages and programs) mentioned not having used CL for ages, and using C++ instead, because they weren't satisfied with the performance in the case of games.
2020-07-18T07:29:07Z beach: I mean, every C++ programmer who were to read the paper by Hudak and Jones, would instantly convert to Haskell if they believed it.
2020-07-18T07:29:25Z contrapunctus: (Which makes me wonder if they knew what you speak of.)
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2020-07-18T07:30:40Z beach: Performance is not so much a language issue as it is an implementation issue.  But there is also the problem that most people do not understand that code that looks similar in two different languages have different semantics.
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2020-07-18T07:31:24Z beach: So if you translate (say) addition from C++ to Common Lisp, and you don't realize that C++ implements modulo arithmetic and Common Lisp has bignums, then you may very well get it wrong.
2020-07-18T07:33:05Z beach: In other words, if you compare a safe and slow program to an unsafe and fast one in a different language, you are comparing apples and oranges.
2020-07-18T07:33:46Z beach: And, again, if you don't care about modularity, you might get faster code with manual memory management.  My impression is that game development falls into that category.
2020-07-18T07:37:21Z beach: Another factor is that most existing Common Lisp implementations were implemented several decades ago, and are probably still not using techniques for memory management that were invented since then.  So, if you take a Common Lisp implementation with a stop-the-world garbage collector you are not going to see good real-time performance for example.
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2020-07-18T07:38:30Z contrapunctus: Yow.
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2020-07-18T08:11:18Z jackdaniel: programming tao 15: performance is not a trait of the language but the implementation.. but don't expect python to be fast
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2020-07-18T08:14:30Z iissaacc: sup my gs
2020-07-18T08:14:55Z beach: ?
2020-07-18T08:16:27Z iissaacc: its a greeting my g
2020-07-18T08:17:15Z beach: May I suggest you do M-x set-global-abbrev<RET>gs<RET>whatever gs means<RET>
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2020-07-18T08:47:17Z eta: beach, :D
2020-07-18T08:47:45Z eta: beach, have you considered writing some elisp to query Urban Dictionary
2020-07-18T08:48:33Z beach: After considering for a few seconds, I decided against it.
2020-07-18T08:50:18Z flip214: phoe: jackdaniel: sure, just make a MR. Although "collect" as a name might conflict with LOOP and ITERATE, so is there an alternative?
2020-07-18T08:50:43Z beach: Using silly abbreviations like that shows one or more of several things: 1. Your typing skills are not that great. 2.  You don't master your tools, in particular not your abbrev processor.  3. You assume that everybody has read up on the urban dictionary.
2020-07-18T08:51:06Z phoe: flip214: it won't really conflict with LOOP
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2020-07-18T08:51:38Z flip214: I guess that's a list with an end pointer for efficient appending... is there something to clear the list in-between, or to append multiple values at once? (like Perl's PUSH ARRAY, ELEMENTS...)
2020-07-18T08:52:19Z jackdaniel: flip214: collect macro (as defined in cmucl) allows supplying your own collectors
2020-07-18T08:52:33Z jackdaniel: so in principle it is possible to manipulate any object
2020-07-18T08:52:59Z beach: I hate it that SLIME ruins my Emacs tags-search command by hijacking M-.
2020-07-18T08:52:59Z jackdaniel: and adding multiple elements is supported if the collector operator supports multiple arguments (in case of default list collector it does)
2020-07-18T08:53:09Z flip214: well, yeah, I needed something like that in the past, so I definitely can see the use case
2020-07-18T08:53:47Z jackdaniel: one drawback, as note by lukego, is that the collector binding is not a function - it is a macro
2020-07-18T08:53:58Z jackdaniel: s/note/noted/
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2020-07-18T08:54:49Z lukego: beach: Emacs should really have some framework for combining multiple tags-like things. I wonder if it does these days? I'm still getting my head around all the new stuff like company/ivy/helm (can't even remember which is which yet...)
2020-07-18T08:55:20Z beach: Sure, that would be good.
2020-07-18T08:55:25Z jackdaniel: flip214: another useful utility from cmu utilities is with-clean-symbols
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2020-07-18T08:56:17Z jackdaniel: which is kind-of like gensym, but instead of creating variable with a gensymed symbol, it replaces all occurances of the symbol in the body with a gensym
2020-07-18T08:57:19Z jackdaniel: i.e (with-clean-symbols (foo) (test (defclass foo () ()) (make-instance 'foo)))) ;-> each execution of this block will define a class of a different name
2020-07-18T08:57:31Z lukego: beach: I wonder if abbrevs would be a good solution for typing a lambda character. I've been a nerd and defined unicode lambda as a macro for LAMBDA but haven't solved the easy inputting problem yet.
2020-07-18T08:57:59Z beach: That would certainly work.
2020-07-18T08:58:54Z beach: I use it for correcting some recurring typos I make.  Like my fingers seem unable to type "the".  They always come up with "teh" instead.  So I use abbrevs to correct.
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2020-07-18T09:01:25Z flip214: jackdaniel: well, bring' it on!
2020-07-18T09:02:10Z jackdaniel looks carefully in his pocket for some spare time -- empty :)
2020-07-18T09:02:47Z jackdaniel: because it would be absurd if I had some antimatter in my pocket, right?
2020-07-18T09:04:56Z beach: It wouldn't be around for very long.
2020-07-18T09:05:18Z jackdaniel: heh
2020-07-18T09:08:59Z phoe: neither would his pocket
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2020-07-18T09:15:27Z beach: Yeah.
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2020-07-18T09:17:58Z jackdaniel: one way to continue this joke would be rehashing the phrase, that there is no /spare time/, so /not very long/ would be a meaningless term ,)
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2020-07-18T09:27:49Z flip214: jackdaniel: next time you're waiting for the dentist you might find too much "spare time" on your hands, so be sure to save it somewhere safe!
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2020-07-18T09:34:25Z jackdaniel: is it some kind of elaborate way of saying, that you'd rather had my packet exploded? ;p
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2020-07-18T10:33:35Z lukego: why didn't ITERATE win over LOOP?
2020-07-18T10:39:20Z shka_: lukego: loop is standard, iterate is not
2020-07-18T10:39:46Z shka_: also, iterate uses code walking that produces some ugly problems sometimes
2020-07-18T10:39:47Z shka_: for instance
2020-07-18T10:40:11Z lukego: I'm noticing serapeum for the first time now too, looks like a worthy addition to the toolbox
2020-07-18T10:40:15Z shka_: (iterate (for elt in list) (sum (count 0 elt)))
2020-07-18T10:40:40Z shka_: and honestly, extending iteratate is not that good
2020-07-18T10:40:52Z shka_: i like iterate personally, but i must admit that it has problems
2020-07-18T10:41:00Z shka_: serapeum is cool
2020-07-18T10:42:47Z flip214: shka_: I think the dwim.hu version doesn't code walk
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2020-07-18T10:43:03Z shka_: i don't know this version
2020-07-18T10:43:31Z shka_: oh, and there is this code moving in iterate that can bite your ass
2020-07-18T10:44:00Z shka_: and let me reiterate: I LIKE ITERATE despite those issues
2020-07-18T10:44:07Z shka_: ;-)
2020-07-18T10:44:23Z flip214: yeah, I use it too
2020-07-18T10:44:36Z shka_: ^5
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2020-07-18T10:47:10Z flip214: I just wished that CL-WHO would include ITERATE support by default
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