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2020-06-01T01:54:06Z kinope: Good almost afternoon from australia
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2020-06-01T02:03:13Z kinope: I stopped by yesterday under the name Decs. I program just as a hobby. I hope it's cool if I can pop by in the future if I have questions, not sure if I personally have much to offer others just yet in that capacity though.
2020-06-01T02:17:37Z kinope: I do have a question about closures. I'm working on a project where I made my object classes from closures  (experimenting with material from Let Over Lambda). I was informed that it's unusual to do that, and to use the standard class facilities presest in Common Lisp. Is this a matter of aesthetics or is it rooted in practicality or performance considerations. I'm genuinelly curious as I don't understand the parts at play
2020-06-01T02:17:37Z kinope: in this space.
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2020-06-01T02:40:45Z fe[nl]ix: froggey: are you around ?
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2020-06-01T02:50:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-06-01T02:50:51Z beach: kinope: The language has no particular tools for inspecting closures, whereas there is a rich set of tools for standard objects.  Dispatch is slow/sequential with closures, and you have to do it manually.  with generic functions, dispatch is fast and built in.  With a closure, all "method" must appear in the same source code, whereas with standard classes, they can be spread out.  Generic functions have features such as auxiliary
2020-06-01T02:50:51Z beach: methods and method combinations.  Standard classes have (multiple) inheritance,
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2020-06-01T03:19:32Z kinope: beach: Thanks for that information, it's very helpful. Now I'm interested to see if the runtime overhead of my project can be reduced by making the switch.
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2020-06-01T03:20:33Z beach: It is probably hard to see any difference in performance for small projects.
2020-06-01T03:21:37Z ebrasca: beach: Morning!
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2020-06-01T03:21:55Z beach: kinope: Consider the features more important than performance.
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2020-06-01T03:26:00Z kinope: I run a test that queues up 10 million messages and then dispatches them all sequentially right after usually takes between 2-2.5 minutes. I would totally switch out those components just to satisfy my curiosity. But don't worry the other features are not lost on me either.
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2020-06-01T03:27:57Z beach: I see, so you do have a significant execution time.
2020-06-01T03:28:05Z beach: What implementation are you using?
2020-06-01T03:30:07Z kinope: beach: Although right now I am a bit partial to having the methods all heaped together visually, I can see that as the classes get bigger they will get unwieldy.
2020-06-01T03:30:25Z kinope: beach: ECL
2020-06-01T03:30:51Z beach: You may want to try SBCL to see whether that makes a difference.
2020-06-01T03:33:53Z kinope: I have considered blowing the dust of my laptop to see it running on sbcl but right now I am constrained to use the implementation that will run inside termux on my android phone.
2020-06-01T03:34:24Z beach: Oh, right.  I seem to remember reading that.
2020-06-01T03:35:09Z kinope: I'm not super concerned over performance right now though, it's just a toy framework at this stage.
2020-06-01T03:35:55Z kinope: I don't forsee any application I build with it needing even that sort of  throughput.
2020-06-01T03:37:55Z beach: So what plan of action do you derive from those facts?
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2020-06-01T03:45:57Z kinope: I have yet to use the facilities provided by CLOS, so in the interest of growing my knowledge and also in the interest of not taking pride in being unorthodox without reason, I'm going to rewrite my closure classes as standard ones. Any performance improvements will be a bonus.
2020-06-01T03:46:22Z beach: Sounds good.
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2020-06-01T03:50:50Z kinope: beach: Thank you, this was productive.
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2020-06-01T03:51:09Z beach: Great!
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2020-06-01T07:32:03Z Posterdati: hi
2020-06-01T07:33:14Z phoe: heyyy
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2020-06-01T07:35:28Z beach: Hello Posterdati.
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2020-06-01T07:39:21Z Posterdati: I found a problem in antik...
2020-06-01T07:40:44Z Posterdati: hertz definition is wrong, try (antik:make-pq 1d0 'hertz)
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2020-06-01T07:41:14Z Posterdati: hertz = 1/s not rad/s
2020-06-01T07:42:29Z beach: True.  But radians are not real units.  It is sometimes convenient to think of them as such, but they really aren't.
2020-06-01T07:43:42Z no-defun-allowed: I got #_6.283185307179586d0_rad/s, which is 1 cycle/second.
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2020-06-01T07:48:35Z phoe: 6.28... is 2 * pi
2020-06-01T07:48:40Z phoe: which is one cycle, as no-defun-allowed said
2020-06-01T07:50:37Z Posterdati: beach: no, try (antik:make-pq 1d0 'hertz)
2020-06-01T07:50:47Z Posterdati: beach: the result is wrong
2020-06-01T07:51:07Z Posterdati: rad/s is not 1/s
2020-06-01T07:51:23Z Posterdati: frequency is not an angle over time
2020-06-01T07:52:13Z Posterdati: frequncy means how many times an event occur in a given time
2020-06-01T07:52:31Z no-defun-allowed: "But radians are not real units."
2020-06-01T07:55:39Z beach: Posterdati: But if you multiply a value by 2*pi, does it change the unit?  Like if you have a distance of 2km and multiply it by 2*pi, do you now have km*rad/cycle?
2020-06-01T07:55:42Z Posterdati: no-defun-allowed: again try (antik:make-pq 1d0 'hertz)
2020-06-01T07:56:19Z no-defun-allowed: Posterdati: Read the backlog. I did, and I got 6.283... rad/s, or 2π rad/s, or 1 cycle/s
2020-06-01T07:56:43Z Posterdati: beach: that's the point, in formulas involving f the results are wrong
2020-06-01T07:56:53Z beach: OK, fine.
2020-06-01T07:58:16Z Posterdati: beach: you always have a 2pi constant which is not the case, look for example at the formula for the eddy current loss there is f not omega!
2020-06-01T07:59:44Z Posterdati: f is not omega
2020-06-01T08:01:41Z beach: I should be quiet.  I don't know enough about antik to say more.
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2020-06-01T08:35:54Z easye: morning.
2020-06-01T08:36:22Z beach: Hello easye.
2020-06-01T08:36:34Z no-defun-allowed: Morning easye.
2020-06-01T08:36:44Z easye: Is there a defined "rounding-mode" for internal operations in ANSI?  I seeminly need to choose among <https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/math/RoundingMode.html> for ABCL.
2020-06-01T08:37:17Z Posterdati: no-defun-allowed: again 1 hertz != 6.28... rad/s, frequency is not angular velocity
2020-06-01T08:37:51Z easye waves to beach and no-defun-allowed .
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2020-06-01T08:38:13Z no-defun-allowed: o/
2020-06-01T08:38:46Z easye: Guess I will go with HALF_EVEN Rounding mode to round towards the "nearest neighbor" unless both neighbors are equidistant, in which case, round towards the even neighbor.
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2020-06-01T08:43:32Z phoe: internal operations? what do you mean?
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2020-06-01T08:47:01Z easye: I'm try to the code that gives a double-float from a ratio for values between least-positive-normalized-double-float and least-positive-double-float in java.  Need to pick a rounding algorithim.
2020-06-01T08:47:18Z easye: s/try to the/trying to fix the/
2020-06-01T08:54:14Z easye: Upon further rubber ducking of my question, I don't think it would be covered in ANSI Common Lisp.
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2020-06-01T08:58:10Z easye: HALF_EVEN is the IEEE 754R default
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2020-06-01T09:19:39Z edgar-rft: easye: CLHS ROUND says: round and fround produce a quotient that has been rounded to the nearest mathematical integer; if the mathematical quotient is exactly halfway between two integers, (that is, it has the form integer+1/2), then the quotient has been rounded to the even (divisible by two) integer.
2020-06-01T09:20:01Z edgar-rft: ...if that's what you're looking for
2020-06-01T09:22:17Z easye: edgar-rft: thanks.  that helps.
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2020-06-01T10:45:41Z phoe: Online Lisp Meeting #2 starts in 15 minutes. Speaker: Michael Raskin, "Integrating with UNIX from Common Lisp via FS API" - https://www.twitch.tv/TwitchPlaysCommonLisp
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2020-06-01T10:48:52Z beach: Oh, they are no longer in the evening?
2020-06-01T10:49:28Z phoe: Michael said that now is the best time for him, plus the times are fluid to suit the presenter the best
2020-06-01T10:49:48Z beach: Got it.  Thanks!
2020-06-01T10:50:26Z phoe: Plus, 13:00 CEST seems like a time that can suit the eveningpeople from Australia, afternoon people from Asia, midday people from Europe, and all the poor souls from Americas who need to wake up early
2020-06-01T10:50:51Z phoe: a local optimum of sorts
2020-06-01T10:51:39Z phoe: but, I don't want to stick to a single time - whenever the author says they would like the meeting to be held, I will attempt to hold it
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2020-06-01T11:47:06Z MichaelRaskin: Technically I did not say it is better than Tue 18:00, just the same — but indeed it covers well the people overseas for whom 18:00 CEST was bad.
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2020-06-01T12:05:52Z froggey: fe[nl]ix: I'm here
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2020-06-01T12:23:47Z _death: hmmm.. planet.lisp.org cert needs renewal
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2020-06-01T12:25:59Z phoe: oh goodness
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2020-06-01T12:41:30Z jackdaniel: because it is so unsafe without a valid certificate!
2020-06-01T12:41:45Z jackdaniel: at least that's what my web browser said
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2020-06-01T12:46:18Z phoe: I know, right
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2020-06-01T13:16:04Z dlowe: it's just to prevent there from being time to crack the private key
2020-06-01T13:16:27Z dlowe: it doesn't become unsafe at any particular point
2020-06-01T13:16:41Z dlowe: (well, any known particular point)
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2020-06-01T13:30:24Z MajCon: f
2020-06-01T13:32:12Z MajCon: phoe:Hi! Are you the person responsible for the Online Lisp Meeting series?
2020-06-01T13:32:33Z beach: He is.
2020-06-01T13:32:56Z phoe: MajCon: oh gods they found me
2020-06-01T13:33:01Z phoe runs for cover
2020-06-01T13:33:16Z phoe: MajCon: sure, it's me! what's up?
2020-06-01T13:33:50Z jackdaniel: hand your wallet and report none of it to the police - we know your address
2020-06-01T13:34:14Z phoe hands over the wallet with 384 MB worth of conses
2020-06-01T13:34:35Z jackdaniel: clearly you use sbcl and you did not type anything in the repl yet!
2020-06-01T13:34:59Z MajCon: Haha :-). It's a bit early (like 1 month early) but I've been using Racket+Redex for doing my master's thesis on using formal methods for WebAssembly. Is that the kind of stuff you think people would be interested in hearing about?
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2020-06-01T13:36:08Z phoe: MajCon: yes please
2020-06-01T13:36:24Z phoe: this is a Common Lisp place, so we are just slightly off topic; mind if we take it to #lispcafe?
2020-06-01T13:36:53Z MajCon: Just need to register this name, be there in a bit
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2020-06-01T13:57:50Z flip214: when using cl-jupyter, only the current result is shown. How can I configure it to have a history, only changing previous cells by explicit intent?
2020-06-01T14:07:56Z flip214: Oh, I need to click "+" (insert cell) every time...
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2020-06-01T14:30:41Z yottabyte: hi all, I'm trying to make a simple executable to test, but when I run "(sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "hello.exe" :toplevel #'main :executable t)" in slime I get "Cannot save core with multiple threads running."
2020-06-01T14:30:46Z yottabyte: I was just following this: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/14171849/compiling-common-lisp-to-an-executable
2020-06-01T14:31:05Z beach: Do it outside of SLIME.
2020-06-01T14:31:06Z dlowe: yottabyte: don't do it in slime
2020-06-01T14:31:11Z yottabyte: where do I do it
2020-06-01T14:31:18Z dlowe: start sbcl on a terminal
2020-06-01T14:31:35Z yottabyte: in the directory where my hello.lisp is?
2020-06-01T14:31:39Z yottabyte: or do I load the file?
2020-06-01T14:31:56Z dlowe: start sbcl in a terminal, load your code, then save your image
2020-06-01T14:33:59Z yottabyte: neat! a hello-world is 45 megabytes. is that okay?
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2020-06-01T14:34:14Z dlowe: it doesn't go up by much when you write a big program
2020-06-01T14:34:24Z dlowe: your hello world also includes an IDE :)
2020-06-01T14:34:47Z dlowe: well, minus the editor :p
2020-06-01T14:35:09Z pve: yottabyte: you can use ":compression t" if you want
2020-06-01T14:37:21Z yottabyte: so I can compile a program that accepts a file as an argument and loads and compiles it so I don't have to start a sbcl session to make an executable
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2020-06-01T14:38:00Z dlowe: sure, just sbcl -eval '(load "hello.lisp")
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2020-06-01T14:38:14Z dlowe: -eval '(sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die ...)'
2020-06-01T14:38:16Z phoe: yottabyte: also turn on core compression, you'll get 11 MB rather than 45 MB
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2020-06-01T14:38:35Z phoe: oh, pve alredy said it
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2020-06-01T14:47:57Z jmercouris: I'm trying to make something like $EDITOR support for Next
2020-06-01T14:48:04Z jmercouris: the first thing that I think about is UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM
2020-06-01T14:48:19Z jmercouris: however, probably I should launch that in a new thread to avoid blocking, right?
2020-06-01T14:48:36Z grewal quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2020-06-01T14:49:54Z phoe: clhs ed
2020-06-01T14:49:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ed.htm
2020-06-01T14:50:17Z patlv: Hi all, I've been using the Sxql package from Eitaro Fukamachi with great success, now I'm trying to call a stored procedure in mysql with it, it's not documented, anybody knows if it is possible?
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2020-06-01T14:51:20Z jmercouris: THATS UNBELIEVABLE!
2020-06-01T14:51:23Z jmercouris: they thought of everything!
2020-06-01T14:51:25Z jmercouris: phoe: thanks
2020-06-01T14:51:54Z Bike: i don't think many implementations put effort into ed any more, and it might block
2020-06-01T14:51:59Z Bike: might be worth a shot, i guess
2020-06-01T14:52:31Z jmercouris: even if it blocks, it is very explicit
2020-06-01T14:52:45Z jmercouris: I can still pop it into a new thread
2020-06-01T14:53:13Z jmercouris: hmm, doesn't work on my machine
2020-06-01T14:53:42Z jmercouris: "Don't know how to ED /Users/jmercouris/Downloads/file.txt"
2020-06-01T14:54:00Z jmercouris: *ED-FUNCTIONS* is NIL
2020-06-01T14:54:05Z jmercouris: hm, that is problematic
2020-06-01T14:55:01Z jmercouris: this looks good: https://github.com/sanel/magic-ed
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2020-06-01T14:59:59Z jackdaniel: sbcl defines a hook mechanism for ed
2020-06-01T15:00:05Z jackdaniel: so you may put there anything, i.e emacs
2020-06-01T15:00:16Z jackdaniel: ecl afair uses the EDITOR env variable value
2020-06-01T15:01:01Z jackdaniel: having hooks is clearly better, because you may feed it with something what's already part of the image (i.e climacs or some sed-like repl)
2020-06-01T15:02:09Z jackdaniel: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Customization-Hooks-for-Users
2020-06-01T15:03:25Z phoe clicks magic-ed
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2020-06-01T15:03:55Z jmercouris: the README is lies
2020-06-01T15:04:02Z jmercouris: it is available on standard quicklisp dist
2020-06-01T15:04:15Z phoe: ...this is a portability library for cl:ed
2020-06-01T15:04:30Z jmercouris: that's exactly what it is, but it also respects $EDITOR
2020-06-01T15:04:32Z jmercouris: supposedely
2020-06-01T15:04:39Z jackdaniel: does the readmy state, that it is not available on ql?
2020-06-01T15:04:44Z jackdaniel: readme°
2020-06-01T15:05:07Z jmercouris: says something about quicklisp
2020-06-01T15:05:08Z Bike: it says you can get it from quicklisp but recommends ultralisp.
2020-06-01T15:05:09Z jmercouris: ultralisp
2020-06-01T15:05:22Z jmercouris: I looked at the source
2020-06-01T15:05:24Z phoe: "Install via Quicklisp, which updates distro about once a month."
2020-06-01T15:05:26Z jmercouris: it does respect $EDITOR
2020-06-01T15:05:28Z jmercouris: if you have CCL or SBCL
2020-06-01T15:05:29Z jackdaniel: "says something about quicklisp" is not the same as "does not work on quicklisp", is it?
2020-06-01T15:05:30Z phoe: "For the daily updates track, install via Ultralisp."
2020-06-01T15:05:52Z jmercouris: LIES!
2020-06-01T15:05:56Z jmercouris: yes, I was overzealous
2020-06-01T15:05:58Z phoe: jmercouris: yes, it is available on standard quicklisp dist, and the readme of that project explicitly states that
2020-06-01T15:06:55Z jmercouris: :'-(
2020-06-01T15:06:57Z jmercouris: Yes
2020-06-01T15:07:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2020-06-01T15:07:35Z jmercouris: I don't know if this is worth a dependency
2020-06-01T15:07:36Z jackdaniel: also: does it *not* respect EDITOR variable on other implementations?
2020-06-01T15:07:45Z jmercouris: it doesn't explicitly add support for them
2020-06-01T15:08:22Z jmercouris: effectively yes
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2020-06-01T15:17:22Z phoe: no idea
2020-06-01T15:17:59Z phoe: there's only SBCL and CCL getenv in there
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2020-06-01T15:18:22Z phoe: probably could be made better via uiop's getenv
2020-06-01T15:20:34Z jmercouris: Yes
2020-06-01T15:20:38Z jmercouris: That was my thinking
2020-06-01T15:20:51Z jmercouris: also I was thinking that the scope is wrong, why eval text gotten from ed?
2020-06-01T15:20:58Z jmercouris: why not just load it into string?
2020-06-01T15:21:13Z bfig_ is now known as bfig
2020-06-01T15:21:18Z jmercouris: also, why do we need to write it to a file?
2020-06-01T15:22:07Z jmercouris: I guess we must use a temporary file, this is Unix after all...
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2020-06-01T15:23:54Z borei: hi all
2020-06-01T15:24:12Z jmercouris: hello borei
2020-06-01T15:24:34Z borei: finally getting back on my lisp learning curve, last months were just killing me
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2020-06-01T15:29:38Z borei: well, after getting some result (doing 3D learning project, linear algebra etc) i started to understand that my approach is not in lisp way. Im using CLOS - it works very well, but starting to read "Let Over Lambda" - pointed me that there is alternative, and that alternative is even more powerful then CLOS, but not easy to understand.
2020-06-01T15:30:22Z beach: And what is that alternative?
2020-06-01T15:30:28Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-06-01T15:30:32Z beach: Don't tell me it's "closures".
2020-06-01T15:31:01Z borei: hi beach: :-)
2020-06-01T15:31:11Z beach: Generic functions and standard classes provide way more flexibility than closures.
2020-06-01T15:31:13Z borei: yeah it closures
2020-06-01T15:31:42Z beach: You are the second person in the past few days to have fallen into that trap.
2020-06-01T15:31:47Z borei: i can be wrong, im not experienced yet, mayb i just need to understand it deeper
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2020-06-01T15:32:32Z beach: Closures can be used as a poor man's object system, but it is definitely not recommended when you have CLOS.
2020-06-01T15:32:34Z jmercouris: OO is certainly one of the most powerful paradigms, even if itsn't as cool
2020-06-01T15:32:42Z pjb: Well, it depends on the scope of the project. closures are anonymous objects with one (or very few "methods").
2020-06-01T15:32:53Z pjb: Often you don't need more.
2020-06-01T15:33:00Z beach: OK, here we go again.
2020-06-01T15:33:10Z pjb: And a bunch of functions in CL prove it (reduce, mapcar, etc)
2020-06-01T15:33:20Z borei: just understanding how they work in connection with lisp macro system will bring me to the higher level
2020-06-01T15:33:33Z jmercouris: no, practice will bring you to a higher level
2020-06-01T15:33:37Z beach: I think #lisp has picked up a habit of contesting everything I say, so I will just shut up.
2020-06-01T15:33:41Z jmercouris: solving artificial problems doesn't make you better
2020-06-01T15:33:59Z jmercouris: beach: seid nicht so sauer! neimand hat dass gesagt
2020-06-01T15:33:59Z borei: so now it's very academic and learning approach
2020-06-01T15:34:00Z pjb: beach: it's not contesting everything. It's that everything is gray, and depends on the context.
2020-06-01T15:34:00Z beach: borei: Good luck with your closures.
2020-06-01T15:34:08Z borei: :-)
2020-06-01T15:34:11Z borei: im trying
2020-06-01T15:34:26Z pjb: OO is good, closures are good. one needs to understand both, and to use them in the right circumstances.
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2020-06-01T15:34:46Z borei: yep, that is my final goal
2020-06-01T15:35:06Z pjb: If you make the wrong choice, you get overly complex code.
2020-06-01T15:35:19Z Bike: closures aren't really an alternative to clos. you could implement clos using closures as objects, probably.
2020-06-01T15:35:21Z borei: so question is very basic, but i can't jump over that problem, i even don't know if my approach is correct
2020-06-01T15:35:47Z jmercouris: Bike: that sounds like an exercise in frustration
2020-06-01T15:35:59Z Bike: i don't think it would be a great idea, no
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2020-06-01T15:36:03Z borei: (defmacro defnode (name)
2020-06-01T15:36:03Z borei:   (let ((x 0))
2020-06-01T15:36:03Z borei:     `(defun ,name()
2020-06-01T15:36:03Z borei:        (format t "Hello, from Macro~%")
2020-06-01T15:36:03Z borei:        (incf x)
2020-06-01T15:36:03Z borei:        (format t "New X: ~a~%" x))))
2020-06-01T15:36:12Z jmercouris: borei: please, use a pasteservice
2020-06-01T15:36:14Z Bike: please use a pastebin service if you're going to put in more than one line.
2020-06-01T15:36:32Z pjb: try http://termbin.com
2020-06-01T15:36:33Z borei: yep yep, really forgot about paste service
2020-06-01T15:36:45Z Bike: the binding of X takes place at macroexpansion time, so in the expansion X is unbound.
2020-06-01T15:37:03Z jmercouris: while Bike is correct, I don't think borei will get it
2020-06-01T15:37:12Z borei: yep
2020-06-01T15:37:42Z borei: function is defined in lexical environment - should it has an access to varaibles ?
2020-06-01T15:37:52Z pjb: borei: no it is not.
2020-06-01T15:37:59Z borei: i can't find answer
2020-06-01T15:38:17Z pjb: borei: the function is defined in the lexical environment where the defnode macro call is expanded from.
2020-06-01T15:38:28Z pjb: borei: Read what Bike said!
2020-06-01T15:38:42Z Bike: The function defined by DEFUN doesn't have X in its local environment.
2020-06-01T15:38:51Z pjb: borei: since your code is erroneous, it's difficult to guess what you want to do…
2020-06-01T15:39:06Z Bike: The code that DEFNODE expands into will need to bind X itself.
2020-06-01T15:39:14Z pjb: borei: so you should first write down in English what it is you're trying to achieve.
2020-06-01T15:39:57Z borei: need some time, wife is just behind me, breakfast, and she has very heavy argument :-) gimme 10-15
2020-06-01T15:40:48Z pjb: if it is to generate a function that will return a different value each time it's called, then I would advise against it.  Such procedures are not mathematical functions (their results are not computed in function of their arguments), therefore they are difficult to prove, to debug and to test.
2020-06-01T15:41:03Z beach: pjb: So even the fact that I am contested was contested.
2020-06-01T15:41:11Z beach: I think I get the idea.
2020-06-01T15:41:14Z pjb: beach: sorry about that. :-)
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2020-06-01T15:43:46Z jackdaniel: let over lambda is a very bad book for a beginner in common lisp
2020-06-01T15:44:00Z Josh_2: ^
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2020-06-01T15:46:19Z jmercouris: anything wrong with having UIOP:GET-ENV in a slot initform?
2020-06-01T15:46:21Z jackdaniel: it is as if you were learning a language with tongue twisters: neither they are representative nor complete from the language perspective
2020-06-01T15:46:43Z jmercouris: as much as i love to disagree with jackdaniel on any topic of any nature, he is wholly correct about this
2020-06-01T15:47:45Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: you could skip your snarky remarks, I have enough of being personally addressed by you in a way which is impolite
2020-06-01T15:47:50Z borei: ok, main goal (i know it can be achieved with CLOS, and i can do it pretty easy) - im building pipeline, which is directed acyclic graph, nodes of that pipeline supposed to do very simple operation, for example to do high pass filtering.
2020-06-01T15:47:54Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: ebenso
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2020-06-01T15:48:20Z Bike: jmercouris: initforms can be whatever and it should be fine. they're not executed if you're loading an object from a fasl for example.
2020-06-01T15:48:20Z borei: so i decided to try to use closure as a foundation for nodes definition
2020-06-01T15:48:48Z jmercouris: Bike: aha, that.. could be a problem, how do I know what is executed/not-executed when loading from image? that has brought me pain several times
2020-06-01T15:49:04Z jackdaniel: "likewise" would be appropriate if I did that at least once, which I did not.
2020-06-01T15:49:06Z Bike: clhs make-load-form
2020-06-01T15:49:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm
2020-06-01T15:49:10Z Bike: jmercouris:
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2020-06-01T15:49:14Z borei: but i still want to modify variables defined lexical environments of the corresponding closures
2020-06-01T15:49:46Z jmercouris: Bike: I'll read, thanks
2020-06-01T15:49:48Z Bike: yes, you'll need to have other closures that modify the variables, or add messages to your existing closures to let you tell them to modify a lexical variable.
2020-06-01T15:49:57Z Bike: with CLOS you can just use accessor functions. it's easy.
2020-06-01T15:50:13Z Bike: jmercouris: basically, you can customize it pretty much entirely.
2020-06-01T15:51:06Z jmercouris: that's pretty cool
2020-06-01T15:55:56Z jmercouris: OK to use UIOP's with-temporary-file?
2020-06-01T15:56:13Z jmercouris: that is what I plan to pass to ED to edit, and then grab the results from that
2020-06-01T15:56:28Z borei: Bike: "yes, you'll need to have other closures that modify the variables, or add messages to your existing closures to let you tell them to modify a lexical variable." - can you give me simple example if possible ?
2020-06-01T15:56:50Z jmercouris: borei: what is your goal in all of this? I can tell you that you won't be learning lisp
2020-06-01T15:56:51Z Bike: No, because I told you about this complication to encourage you to use CLOS instead.
2020-06-01T15:57:07Z jmercouris: nobody would ever write such a program in the manner described
2020-06-01T15:57:13Z jmercouris: unless it was strictly an exercise in masochism
2020-06-01T15:57:20Z Bike: let over lambda should cover that kind of thing. if it doesn't, you are not prepared
2020-06-01T15:57:26Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-06-01T15:59:36Z borei: that is true, i'm not tat that level ... yet
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2020-06-01T16:04:32Z jackdaniel: another analogy with language twisters is that even when you know them all, it won't make you know the language. also speaking in language twisters on daily basis it annoying to others (at best)
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2020-06-01T16:05:32Z MichaelRaskin: jmercouris: I thinh my debugger helper to fight compilers optimising away local variables did more or less this… but yeah, if was not normal code, and if such things are not obvious yet, one should not do them
2020-06-01T16:07:41Z jmercouris: MichaelRaskin: yes :-)
2020-06-01T16:07:56Z Josh_2: borei: you see how confusing this gets after a while? https://imgur.com/AHROXd6.png and this example is only trivial. You really should just use CLOS where applicable
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2020-06-01T16:10:15Z _death: borei: On Lisp has a basic chapter about network represetation by closures
2020-06-01T16:10:44Z kinope: Hey! I was that second person who fell into constructing my classes from closures, gave me a chuckle. The conversation has got me wondering how many people wonder in here bathed in the radiant light of Let Over Lambda
2020-06-01T16:11:30Z Josh_2: From what I have seen in here Let Over Λ has some controversial takes
2020-06-01T16:11:46Z Josh_2: I've read 4 chapters
2020-06-01T16:12:08Z kinope: I've seen some of the controversy in the past too
2020-06-01T16:12:15Z kinope: around the web
2020-06-01T16:12:19Z _death: such examples are also given in SICP.. I think it's good to learn, even if the CLOS style often makes sense in practice
2020-06-01T16:12:55Z TMA: it is neat that it is possible, yet it is not exactly practical (and more suited for scheme, where a decent object system is not standardized in the older revisions of RnRS)
2020-06-01T16:13:36Z borei: ok, let put in this way - im not looking to build my own CLOS, im looking to build foundation for statefull functions
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2020-06-01T16:14:22Z beach: TMA: Be careful what you say.  I said something similar the other day, resulting in an avalanche of utterances contesting what I said.
2020-06-01T16:14:58Z kinope: Yeah, I think it's worth exploring all of the language constructs even if there are better ways to tackle the common use cases.
2020-06-01T16:15:30Z beach: Closures are essential, but mostly for other things.
2020-06-01T16:15:37Z Josh_2: ^
2020-06-01T16:15:47Z TMA: borei: did you look into funcallable instances?  http://mop.lisp.se/www.alu.org/mop/concepts.html#funcallable-instances
2020-06-01T16:16:36Z phoe: I guess that would work, the funcallable instance is a CLOS instance with slots *and* a function at the same time
2020-06-01T16:17:03Z borei: nope, i didn't know about them till now
2020-06-01T16:17:04Z phoe: you can use that to have a function that stores its own state "inside itself".
2020-06-01T16:17:43Z beach: phoe: The term "CLOS instance" is meaningless.  Every Common Lisp object is an instance of some class, so every Common Lisp object would then be a "CLOS instance".
2020-06-01T16:17:51Z _death: if someone does not know recursion, it makes sense to give exercises in recursion that in practice are solved by other means such as loops.. the same goes for closures
2020-06-01T16:18:19Z phoe: beach: fine, s/CLOS instance/standard object/
2020-06-01T16:18:26Z beach: Thank you.
2020-06-01T16:18:35Z kinope: Rewrote my simple queue closure today as a class and honestly it's much easier to grok
2020-06-01T16:18:50Z phoe: thanks as well
2020-06-01T16:19:21Z phoe: borei: an advantage of a funcallable instance over closures is that it's much easier to inspect the state in case of debugging.
2020-06-01T16:20:01Z phoe: like, you literally check the slot values of the funcallable instance, as opposed to using implementation-dependent means to get the values and what else from the places that are closed over
2020-06-01T16:20:43Z borei: https://pastebin.com/qeTicWt3 <- this form do what im looking for, it points me that i don't understand how does macros works
2020-06-01T16:21:21Z kinope: I had a look at cl-speedy-queue afterwards and whoa! the performance blew mine out of the water.
2020-06-01T16:21:53Z TMA: beach: I am trying to be careful. I too have been rebuffed in a similar way on too more ocasions than I care to count.
2020-06-01T16:21:59Z phoe: that's a closure
2020-06-01T16:24:28Z Bike: borei: compare (macroexpand-1 '(defnode ...)) to that form, and observe whta is different
2020-06-01T16:28:16Z kinope: Apparently cl-speedy-queue is non-consing. I'm wondering how that works. My queue class operates on lists and I think I have a constant complexity algorithm but it's still very slow. How does one create a data structure that operates faster than consing lists, I thought that the list was as deep as you could go in lisp. Am I making sense?
2020-06-01T16:28:41Z borei: after macroexpand-1 let form just gone, meaning that there is no lexical environment - is it correct statement ?
2020-06-01T16:28:42Z jackdaniel: kinope: you can define an array
2020-06-01T16:28:49Z jackdaniel: with a fill pointer
2020-06-01T16:28:59Z jackdaniel: then you simply fill the array
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2020-06-01T16:29:26Z jackdaniel: that may require some modulo arithmetic if you want to make it rotary, but either way that should not cons
2020-06-01T16:29:31Z jackdaniel: (I don't know how the library is built)
2020-06-01T16:30:35Z jackdaniel: or you can of course cons a large list and make it circular
2020-06-01T16:33:04Z beach: Or you could use Flexichain which is designed for this kind of situation.
2020-06-01T16:33:08Z kinope: jackdaniel: Okay thanks, I'll look into that
2020-06-01T16:34:01Z borei: why let gone ???
2020-06-01T16:35:38Z kinope: Flexichain huh, alright I'll give that a squiz too.
2020-06-01T16:35:45Z kinope: cheers
2020-06-01T16:38:57Z borei: and this form works as expected - https://pastebin.com/EhDxNwHr
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2020-06-01T16:54:51Z kinope: Reading the design document for Flexichain now, it seems to tackle a problem that is a bit larger than I need right now. Interesting none the less. If I ever build an application with my framework flexichain seems like a good candidate for text fields and such. I'm going to study the design of cl-speedy-queue for my own edification, but I'm probably going to use it for the message queue for now.
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2020-06-01T17:02:08Z kinope: One has to specify the size of the queue when using speedy-queue, but when I think about it I don't think the message queue needs resizing, or even needs to be so big. Since a stable actor network shouldn't have a   queue of unprocessed messages growing however fast or slowly towards infinity anyway. Should be possible to determine the size of queue needed for a given application.
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2020-06-01T17:26:04Z _death: it looks like it represents a queue as a vector with head/tail pointers (and a sentinel for some reason.. maybe related to concurrency?) .. one issue is that it doesn't remove references to values when it dequeues
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2020-06-01T17:39:03Z _death: also, it's a no-seat-belts library (safety 0)
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2020-06-01T19:10:01Z nwoob: is there something like leetcode where common lisp is supported
2020-06-01T19:10:13Z phoe: nwoob: what's leetcode?
2020-06-01T19:10:14Z phoe googles
2020-06-01T19:10:24Z phoe: oh! yes
2020-06-01T19:10:37Z phoe: (Lisp-Koans #u"https://github.com/google/lisp-koans") (CL-on-Exercism #u"https://exercism.io/tracks/common-lisp")
2020-06-01T19:10:42Z phoe: that's copied from the topic over at #clschool
2020-06-01T19:12:00Z nwoob: yes but those are not much and not problem solving questions like leetcode
2020-06-01T19:13:23Z phoe: I'm sadly not aware of more resources
2020-06-01T19:17:23Z scymtym: advent of code is language independent and usually really good
2020-06-01T19:18:34Z phoe: I was about to suggest that, or Project Euler
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2020-06-01T19:23:40Z nwoob: thanks phoe scymtym
2020-06-01T19:25:32Z nwoob: one advice I want from you guys, my problem solving skill is weak. what are the ways to improve them
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2020-06-01T19:27:11Z phoe: nwoob: 1) think, 2) write code, 3) ask for help, 4) adjust code based on review, 5) GOTO 1
2020-06-01T19:27:26Z phoe: #clschool might be helpful if you decide to do that in Lisp
2020-06-01T19:28:40Z selwyn: practise... and after you have solved a problem (any problem) try to think how it could have been solved better, what went well/ what was a waste of time, etc. and use the lessons learnt next time
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2020-06-01T19:29:07Z phoe: oh right! the four first steps can be applied in any order
2020-06-01T19:29:30Z nwoob: cool, thank you! :)
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2020-06-01T19:33:22Z bhartrihari: It might also be helpful to find some interesting puzzles initially to get you going. Like riddle books by Raymond Smullyan for logical (and chess) puzzles. (He also teaches how to think about certain kinds of problems, and go about solving them).
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2020-06-01T19:34:18Z marcoxa: Bye guys...  Good night.
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2020-06-01T22:14:01Z nwoob: I learned recursion from little schemer and there is not return statement while calling recursive function but in other languages I have to add return statement before recursive call why?
2020-06-01T22:15:59Z phoe: in Lisp and Scheme, the value of the last form of an implicit progn is returned
2020-06-01T22:16:16Z phoe: so (lambda () 1 2 3 4 5) is going to return 5, since 5 is the last form in the body
2020-06-01T22:17:32Z nwoob: phoe: can I show you JS code?
2020-06-01T22:17:47Z nwoob: and from that could you guide me?
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2020-06-01T22:18:19Z phoe: nwoob: I cannot, since I am going to sleep right now
2020-06-01T22:18:25Z phoe: but maybe #clschool will be able to
2020-06-01T22:18:28Z nwoob: ok np
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2020-06-02T00:12:47Z kinope: _death: It looks like a sentinel only in name, but its not like a sentinel that you'd use for a list. It's a symbol called 'empty, and it probably exists for the very readon
2020-06-02T00:13:06Z kinope: reason you mention
2020-06-02T00:14:27Z kinope: the queue doesnt dereference values so it needs a quick way to determine if the queue is effectively empty
2020-06-02T00:19:08Z kinope: in the case that the queue is effectively empty the head and tail pointers are changed to point to it. But they are not really pointers either, they are just numbers that are used in an array/vector indexing operation
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2020-06-02T00:19:26Z kinope: on the queue
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2020-06-02T01:36:41Z kinope: Morning all! Question. Is it just a matter of style whether one should make a small abstraction like (not (null x)) => not-empty_p, as an inlined function or a macro?
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2020-06-02T02:00:34Z edgar-rft: kinope: I usually decide such a question by looking at my code. If the code is littered with (not (null x)) or some other repetitive pattern I try to find a shorter abstraction for it, but only if it makes the code easier to understand for a human. Every abstraction makes it necessary to learn a new symbol, so it makes no sense to abstract each and everything that only appears rather seldom in my code.
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2020-06-02T02:06:48Z kinope: edgar-rft: Great! thanks. Should one make the abstraction a macro or a inlined function depending on the complexity of the operation?
2020-06-02T02:08:59Z no-defun-allowed: Macros shouldn't be where functions can be used, so an inlined function would suffice.
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2020-06-02T02:27:22Z kinope: no-defun-allowed: Good to know, thanks.
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2020-06-02T02:51:41Z White_Flame: a big problem with inline functions in SBCL in particular, is that if you end up with hundreds of them in a single function body (as in a macroexpansion), it can massively slow down compilation
2020-06-02T02:51:45Z White_Flame: even if they're small one-liners
2020-06-02T02:52:33Z White_Flame: but yeah, if it can be expressed in a function, express it in a function
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2020-06-02T03:10:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-02T03:46:51Z ArthurSt1ong: beach: indeed
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2020-06-02T06:23:51Z phoe: morniiiing
2020-06-02T06:24:03Z beach: Hey phoe.
2020-06-02T06:24:07Z phoe: hey hi
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2020-06-02T06:28:51Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe
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2020-06-02T07:10:23Z pve: Good morning! Is there a recommended/easy way of testing code on multiple implementations? I mean something I can give my code to and get back compilation and test results for each implementation.
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2020-06-02T07:10:45Z phoe: cl-test-grid and/or cl-all
2020-06-02T07:12:53Z pve: thanks.. hmm
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2020-06-02T07:25:23Z pjb: pve: I use clall
2020-06-02T07:25:35Z axion: GitHub actions is what we use for pngload: https://github.com/bufferswap/pngload/runs/694176572?check_suite_focus=true
2020-06-02T07:26:42Z pjb: https://github.com/informatimago/bin/blob/master/clall
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2020-06-02T07:27:42Z pve: thanks, I'll investigate these
2020-06-02T07:29:43Z axion: Xach: That reminds me, I think zpb-exif PR #4 is required for pngload to build in next Quicklisp dist release.
2020-06-02T07:30:18Z pve: there wouldn't happen to be a script I could use to fetch and compile the most recent versions of each implementation? my distro is a bit out-of-date on this..
2020-06-02T07:30:30Z axion: roswell
2020-06-02T07:30:33Z phoe: pve: I think there are Travis scripts that you could adapt
2020-06-02T07:31:04Z pve: ok, so no docker image?
2020-06-02T07:31:19Z phoe: I'm not aware of one, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist
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2020-06-02T07:31:52Z pve: docker hub's search isn't very good.. I could only find sbcl images
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2020-06-02T07:33:35Z pve: perhaps I could try to make a docker image with a few implementations + cl-all or cl-test-grid
2020-06-02T07:33:54Z pve: I think that would be ideal for my workflow
2020-06-02T07:37:22Z pve: axion: I'll check out roswell too, thanks
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2020-06-02T07:47:21Z Posterdati: hi
2020-06-02T07:48:42Z Posterdati: beach: another problem is the 'volt*ampere unit which is reduced to 'watt, in this case we cannot reppresent electrical apparent power which is V*A...
2020-06-02T07:52:33Z flip214: Posterdati: of course, just use a complex wattage ... #c(20 10) 'watt
2020-06-02T07:52:35Z pjb: Posterdati: I don't see how it prevents it. The point being that units don't embody the whole physics!
2020-06-02T07:52:55Z pjb: It's not because you write a unit-consistent expression that you have modelized an actual physical phenomenon!
2020-06-02T07:53:26Z Posterdati: flip214: which is wrong
2020-06-02T07:53:29Z flip214: pjb: https://xkcd.com/2312/#  from yesterday
2020-06-02T07:53:33Z flip214: or the day before
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2020-06-02T07:54:00Z flip214: Posterdati: why?
2020-06-02T07:54:07Z Posterdati: pjb: it is a matter of representation
2020-06-02T07:54:34Z Posterdati: flip214: these are not watt, the real part are watt, the complex part is var
2020-06-02T07:54:57Z flip214: Posterdati: sorry, I don't understand
2020-06-02T07:56:11Z flip214: If you put a not-pure-ohmic thing on AC, you get a complex wattage (because V and I are phase-shifted)
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2020-06-02T07:57:00Z Posterdati: watt refers only to power able to do work
2020-06-02T07:57:22Z flip214: you calculate the "real" power for the generator, and use the magnitude to dimension the conductor
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2020-06-02T07:57:43Z flip214: Posterdati: yeah, for virtual loads you use VA, but that's just to differentiate in writing
2020-06-02T07:57:53Z flip214: the "physical sense" is the same
2020-06-02T07:58:08Z flip214: at least, that's what I learned, 30 years ago or so
2020-06-02T07:59:06Z pjb: VA = J/s = kg⋅m²/s³
2020-06-02T07:59:46Z pjb: It would be a very bad idea, in a computer system, to encode any meaning into different unit names.
2020-06-02T08:00:06Z pjb: If you have to encode some physical meaning, do it explicitely, not by the name or factorization of the unit!
2020-06-02T08:01:52Z Posterdati: pjb: V*A is not J/s if you consider a sinusoidal circuit, infact you can have work only by the real part of the complec power not the magnitude!
2020-06-02T08:02:10Z Posterdati: in steady state V*A is not W
2020-06-02T08:04:06Z pjb: J =kg⋅m2/s²   ; V = kg·m2/s³/A ;  VA = kg·m2/s³  = J/s
2020-06-02T08:04:22Z pjb: VA = W
2020-06-02T08:04:36Z pjb: whatever your physical object, units are always units!
2020-06-02T08:05:03Z pjb: Again, you cannot represent a physical system by a mere unit expression, or even by a mere mathematical expression.
2020-06-02T08:05:11Z pjb: You need a physical description.
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2020-06-02T08:05:39Z Posterdati: there is a physical description, but antik has no units to reppresent it :)
2020-06-02T08:05:55Z pjb: Because units don't serve to represent anything!
2020-06-02T08:06:13Z pjb: units are like types, they're only there to CHECK the consistency of a mathematical expression!
2020-06-02T08:07:22Z Posterdati: mmmh no, they are there to give a physical MEAN to a NUMBER
2020-06-02T08:07:29Z pjb: It's just per chance, that the relationship between physical grandeurs in a lot of (simple) physical phenomenon have a unique mathematical form, and therefore a unique unit consistency checking form.
2020-06-02T08:08:06Z pjb: Posterdati: nope.
2020-06-02T08:08:09Z pjb: 3 volt.
2020-06-02T08:08:15Z pjb: THis doesn't mean anything.
2020-06-02T08:08:23Z Posterdati: so you don't bother to have a 250 power car (with no unit) or 250 cv car?
2020-06-02T08:08:53Z pjb: Is this the electromotrice force of a battery? Is it a tension at the ends of a resistor?  Is it something else?
2020-06-02T08:08:58Z Posterdati: pjb: sure, but it gets its meaning from the calculations :)
2020-06-02T08:09:04Z pjb: Again, no.
2020-06-02T08:09:18Z pjb: It's not the calculation that gives physical meaning. It's the description of the physical system!
2020-06-02T08:10:05Z Posterdati: ofcourse, but the calculation give you an indication on the phenomena, you need it
2020-06-02T08:10:17Z pjb: Even better: you can describe physical systems, and measure physical grandeur from an actual instance, and not being able to compute them because you may not know the mathematical relationship between those grandeurs.
2020-06-02T08:10:58Z pjb: You need it if you want to do engineering work. But physical experiments can be done (and usually are done) without having any mathematical theory about it first.
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2020-06-02T08:11:43Z Posterdati: yes, but this is not the case, I have a mathematical model which reppresent my physical system, with a nice degree of accuracy, but no units to represent the numbers it spits out... Seems odd!
2020-06-02T08:12:12Z pjb: Sometimes numbers are absolute, without units. Mere scalars.
2020-06-02T08:12:24Z pjb: For example, the efficiency of a system.
2020-06-02T08:12:29Z Posterdati: in this case they are not, they have units :)
2020-06-02T08:12:42Z Posterdati: so 12 VA are not 12 W for me :)
2020-06-02T08:13:27Z Posterdati: because I have a real part and an imaginary part which I MUST TAKE in account
2020-06-02T08:13:28Z pjb: Again, you're making a mistake. You should not encode anything into VA vs W, because VA = W they're identical.
2020-06-02T08:13:35Z pjb: If you have something to encode, do it otherwise.
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2020-06-02T08:14:01Z Posterdati: I can efficiently encode beacuse of the model
2020-06-02T08:14:38Z Posterdati: anyway antik has got no var unit :)
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2020-06-02T08:15:11Z pjb: And it's better to use internally normalized units such as kg·m2/s³ instead of VA or W, to be able to check unit consistency more easily.
2020-06-02T08:15:32Z pjb: Well, it should be obvious by now that the hint is not to use antik…
2020-06-02T08:16:03Z Posterdati: yes I will turn back to no unit numbers :)
2020-06-02T08:16:15Z pjb: I didn't say that.
2020-06-02T08:17:35Z pjb: You should use something like: (apparent-power 12 ((kg 1) (m 2) (s -3)))  (real-power 12 ((kg 1) (m 2) (s -3)))
2020-06-02T08:17:44Z pjb: same number, same unit, but not same physical grandeur.
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2020-06-02T08:19:30Z pjb: (energy-drain 12  ((kg 1) (m 2) (s -3))) ; J/s = VA = W etc.
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2020-06-02T08:20:20Z Posterdati: pjb: the use is through complex power: A=#c(1 1)=1W+j1VAR
2020-06-02T08:21:02Z Posterdati: pjb: so to distinguish A from P you use 1VA not 1W which is indeed the real part of complex power!
2020-06-02T08:22:51Z Posterdati: so to no mix the both when you say 1 VA your meaning a complex power or its magnitude, when you say 1 W you are meaning the real part of complex power which is the active power, the same one that can do work
2020-06-02T08:24:18Z Posterdati: the reactive power VAR is intended to model the magnitude of electromagnetic energy which is bounced from generator to loads (in the steady state condition)
2020-06-02T08:24:56Z Posterdati: in fact if you consider the transient condition, all these units are meaningless and only J and W are present
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2020-06-02T08:25:13Z Posterdati: so it is only a mere problem or reppresentation!
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2020-06-02T08:27:47Z pjb: Exactly.
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2020-06-02T08:33:33Z Posterdati: pjb: but I'd like to use something to reppresent numbers in my model :)
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2020-06-02T10:18:00Z easye: Good afternoon, Europe.
2020-06-02T10:18:44Z beach: Hello easye.
2020-06-02T10:19:04Z phoe: good afternoon, Java continent
2020-06-02T10:19:12Z no-defun-allowed: Hello easye
2020-06-02T10:20:03Z easye: In the interests of adding as little complexity to the ABCL implementation, I was thinking of allowing the CL:MAKE-ARRAY :INITIAL-ELEMENTS arg be a specialized type for the implementation.  I think this is worse than adding another keyword argument :NIO-BUFFER to specify an initial elements to be taken from this specialized type.
2020-06-02T10:20:07Z easye waves.
2020-06-02T10:20:21Z easye: Opinions?
2020-06-02T10:21:31Z easye: s/as little complexity/as little complexity as necessary/
2020-06-02T10:22:19Z easye: The new type allowed for :INITIAL-ELEMENTS would be disjoint from the ANSI allowances.
2020-06-02T10:22:49Z easye: Which is why I think this is a bad way to save adding another implementation-dependent keyword argument to CL:MAKE-ARRAY
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2020-06-02T10:31:10Z heisig: easye: That sounds messy (but I haven't fully understood what you mean with 'a specialized type for the implementation').  Adding an implementation-dependent keyword sounds better.
2020-06-02T10:32:21Z phoe: specialized type? what do you mean?
2020-06-02T10:32:49Z easye: That the argument to :INITIAL-CONTENTS will be a type available only on ABCL
2020-06-02T10:33:17Z phoe: clhs make-array
2020-06-02T10:33:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm
2020-06-02T10:33:23Z easye: heisig: Thanks for the gut check.
2020-06-02T10:33:40Z easye: s/will be/can be/
2020-06-02T10:33:58Z heisig: You mean a symbol that designates a type?
2020-06-02T10:34:44Z heisig: Because a compound type specifier would also be a valid sequence (-> messy).
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2020-06-02T10:34:52Z phoe: the spec says, "initial-contents is composed of a nested structure of sequences."
2020-06-02T10:34:56Z phoe: yes, that is going to be messy
2020-06-02T10:35:03Z phoe: I think that an ABCL-only keyword would be better
2020-06-02T10:35:09Z easye: RE: a symbol that... No, I mean that the argument will be a wrapped reference to an underlying Java type ("java.nio.ByteBuffer")
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2020-06-02T10:36:01Z easye: phoe: thanks for the opinion.  With you and Marco indicating uncertainty, I am definitely not currently planning on changing this for abcl-1.7.0.
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2020-06-02T10:42:12Z pjb: Still, too bad this doesn't work: (make-array '(2 3) :initial-contents #2A((a b c) (d e f)))
2020-06-02T10:43:14Z easye: pjb: an implementation would be free to DWIM, and still be conforming.
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2020-06-02T10:50:48Z jackdaniel: (make-array '(8 8) :fill-pointer '(2 2)) would be cool too!
2020-06-02T10:51:52Z jackdaniel: or :displaced-index-offset '(3 3)
2020-06-02T10:52:20Z jackdaniel: (of course that would require remodelling aref to allow conformal displacement)
2020-06-02T10:54:01Z flip214: jackdaniel: ROW-MAJOR-AREF can just a single numeric index
2020-06-02T10:54:46Z jackdaniel: flip214: I know
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2020-06-02T10:56:12Z jackdaniel: array with such non-coforming fill-pointer would wrap accordingly, that is row-major-aref 3 would reference the element 1, 1
2020-06-02T10:56:54Z easye: You could actually wire this up without changing the implementations with macros...
2020-06-02T10:57:14Z jackdaniel: you can even do that with functions
2020-06-02T10:57:25Z jackdaniel: but that won't work with aref (unless you shadow it) etc
2020-06-02T10:57:30Z easye nods. "better".
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2020-06-02T12:30:06Z francogrex: Hi, I have a very long many lines of a text file and I know that in one line it has a faulty data an extra tab char that should not be there. can i indentify the offending line without reading the whole from A to Z? i know i can use random access and file position but I don't know exactly which position is the error
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2020-06-02T12:33:29Z phoe: you mean that you want to find the tab character in the file?
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2020-06-02T12:41:18Z francogrex: phoe: well each newline has only one tab in addition to other characters, however one line contains two tab characters, don't know which one, i would like to inspect that line
2020-06-02T12:41:38Z phoe: so you need to find two tabs in a row
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2020-06-02T12:41:54Z phoe: you can't find the needle in the haystack without finding the needle in the haystack
2020-06-02T12:42:01Z phoe: so I guess the only option is to scan the whole file
2020-06-02T12:42:08Z jackdaniel: francogrex: you may write few esrap rules to parse such file and signal a condition when you reach that particular line
2020-06-02T12:44:37Z francogrex: ok
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2020-06-02T12:51:09Z splittist: francogrex: the lines (records) are variable length? (extra tab aside)
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2020-06-02T12:58:19Z francogrex: hi yes they are of variable (length)
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2020-06-02T13:21:27Z jmercouris: I get a crash when trying to do CFFI from a bordeaux thread
2020-06-02T13:21:30Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/0PSAS8K
2020-06-02T13:21:33Z jmercouris: what could be the cause of this?
2020-06-02T13:21:50Z jmercouris: looking at the stacktrace it seems all of the data is properl getting passed, is there something I am missing here?
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2020-06-02T13:22:24Z phoe: "Unhandled breakpoint/trap at #x40704D3"
2020-06-02T13:22:35Z phoe: SBCL is getting an unexpected unix signal for some reason
2020-06-02T13:22:39Z Bike: did you set a breakpoint?
2020-06-02T13:23:02Z jmercouris: I can set breakpoints?
2020-06-02T13:23:13Z Bike: i mean, you could open up gdb and do whatever, sure.
2020-06-02T13:23:17Z jmercouris: Enlighten me, you mean with (break)?
2020-06-02T13:23:32Z jmercouris: I can hook up GDB to a lisp program?
2020-06-02T13:23:34Z selwyn: not that kind of breakpoint
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2020-06-02T13:24:07Z Bike: i don't think gdb works too smoothly with lisp, but you could, sure. and in this case you have C++ code running, and gdb knows how to deal with that.
2020-06-02T13:24:14Z Bike: anyway, it sounds like the answer is no, you didn't set a breakpoint.
2020-06-02T13:24:18Z jmercouris: the answer is no
2020-06-02T13:24:46Z jmercouris: I have a feeling it has something to do with the thread not being able to return or something
2020-06-02T13:24:48Z jmercouris: context
2020-06-02T13:24:50Z phoe: "WebCore16ExceptionDetailsENS_12CallbackBase5ErrorEEEE" on line 10
2020-06-02T13:25:02Z phoe: I have no idea what that is but it smells like some sort of error in JS
2020-06-02T13:25:14Z jmercouris: hm
2020-06-02T13:25:23Z jmercouris: from a bordeaux thread, can I run some portion on the main thread?
2020-06-02T13:25:32Z jmercouris: can I evaluate a specific line on the main thread?
2020-06-02T13:25:34Z Bike: well, just to be clear, getting a SB-SYS:BREAKPOINT-ERROR should mean your process recieved SIGTRAP.
2020-06-02T13:26:23Z jmercouris: so does this mean a communication error between SBCL and the C++ code?
2020-06-02T13:26:38Z phoe: it means that something sent a SIGTRAP to your process
2020-06-02T13:26:41Z phoe: what and how - no idea
2020-06-02T13:26:55Z jmercouris: hm
2020-06-02T13:27:00Z Bike: i don't think sbcl uses sigtrap internally, so i couldn't tell you what's giving it that.
2020-06-02T13:27:05Z phoe: "The SIGTRAP signal is sent to a process when an exception (or trap) occurs: a condition that a debugger has requested to be informed of – for example, when a particular function is executed, or when a particular variable changes value."
2020-06-02T13:27:17Z phoe: mysterious!
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2020-06-02T13:27:30Z jmercouris: that is certainly mysterious
2020-06-02T13:27:40Z jmercouris: this is absolute nonsense
2020-06-02T13:27:47Z jmercouris: who thought this was a good idea?
2020-06-02T13:27:48Z francogrex: you can attach gdb to a running sbcl
2020-06-02T13:27:51Z Bike: ah, i see, sbcl handles a bunch of cases of sigtrap and this is the default
2020-06-02T13:28:00Z Bike: jmercouris: what's "this" here? unix debugging?
2020-06-02T13:28:05Z jmercouris: Yes, unix debugging
2020-06-02T13:28:18Z jmercouris: always such cryptic bullshit messages
2020-06-02T13:28:25Z jmercouris: my favorite is sigabrt
2020-06-02T13:28:37Z jmercouris picks up a copy of the unix haters handbook
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2020-06-02T13:28:54Z francogrex: it's easy but you should know very well how to deal with assembly in addition to the src code for debuging
2020-06-02T13:29:40Z jmercouris: "easy"
2020-06-02T13:29:53Z jmercouris: same call outside of a bordeaux thread functions
2020-06-02T13:29:53Z jackdaniel: traps are very useful for debugging actually, and they often have support from the processor
2020-06-02T13:29:55Z Bike: you shouldn't need to know assembly for this.
2020-06-02T13:29:57Z jmercouris: it is most DEFINITELy a context issue
2020-06-02T13:30:23Z Bike: maybe it's one of those things that can only run in the main thread. thought that was a mac graphics thing though.
2020-06-02T13:30:30Z jmercouris: that is a mac graphical thing
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2020-06-02T13:30:39Z jmercouris: perhaps since GTK is on the main thread it doesn't like to get commands from a different thread
2020-06-02T13:31:09Z drmeister: Has anyone used Xach's 'gridlock' - https://github.com/xach/gridlock
2020-06-02T13:31:39Z drmeister: Or cl-gdata?  https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-gdata
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2020-06-02T13:32:01Z drmeister: I'm interested in accessing google sheets directly - I was looking for some pointers.
2020-06-02T13:32:35Z jackdaniel: NULL
2020-06-02T13:32:45Z jackdaniel: does it count? :)
2020-06-02T13:33:00Z phoe: jackdaniel: that is rude, why not give him a meaningful pointer
2020-06-02T13:33:14Z jackdaniel: I would if I had!
2020-06-02T13:33:20Z phoe: 0x0000001000025AB3
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2020-06-02T13:34:05Z Bike: psh, it's not even aligned
2020-06-02T13:34:07Z Bike: get out of here
2020-06-02T13:34:16Z phoe: :(
2020-06-02T13:34:41Z jackdaniel: I'm sure it is tagged because it is an immediate type! but then it is not really a pointer, so, well, what Bike said
2020-06-02T13:35:39Z Bike: jmercouris: googling "webkit sigtrap" turns up some results that may or may not be relevant. lots of stuff about timers...
2020-06-02T13:36:41Z jmercouris: Bike: yes, it needed execution on the renderer thread
2020-06-02T13:36:44Z jmercouris: and silly me, I forgot bordeaux uses actual threads instead of lightweight threads
2020-06-02T13:37:13Z Bike: it's just a wrapper for the implementation's threads. i don't know if any current implementations have green threads tho
2020-06-02T13:37:45Z jackdaniel: cmucl?
2020-06-02T13:38:22Z jmercouris: CMUCL probably
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2020-06-02T13:55:19Z drmeister: jackdaniel, phoe:  Those pointers both gave me segmentation faults - what kind of crap are you pushing here?
2020-06-02T13:55:48Z drmeister: This is the kind of stuff I expect from ##C++ - but not here.  Not here man.
2020-06-02T13:57:15Z jackdaniel: strictly speaking NIL is also a pointer
2020-06-02T13:57:26Z jackdaniel: I hope that it doesn't segfault on clasp!
2020-06-02T13:58:25Z jackdaniel: here, take a moving square for consolation: https://turtleware.eu/static/paste/401f3fbb-fbuf.webm
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2020-06-02T14:06:08Z drmeister: Alright - that's cool - I'll accept your moving square.  Don't let it happen again.
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2020-06-02T14:06:16Z drmeister has been binging on Breaking Bad.
2020-06-02T14:06:44Z jackdaniel: :)
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2020-06-02T15:26:41Z Josh_2: afternoon all
2020-06-02T15:26:52Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
2020-06-02T15:27:05Z Josh_2: Hi beach
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2020-06-02T16:55:01Z max3: if i have a define that looks like (define ((fn a) b) ... )
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2020-06-02T16:55:10Z max3: what am i looking at? a curried function?
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2020-06-02T16:55:19Z phoe: max3: hmmm, doesn't look like Common Lisp
2020-06-02T16:55:22Z phoe: which dialect is that?
2020-06-02T16:55:27Z max3: mit scheme i guess
2020-06-02T16:55:33Z max3: i'm reading a sussman book
2020-06-02T16:55:41Z phoe: #lisp is a Common Lisp place - you might prefer #scheme
2020-06-02T16:55:48Z max3: ok
2020-06-02T16:55:52Z phoe: like, people there might be of more help
2020-06-02T16:55:57Z pjb: max3: yes, scheme allows to define functions using a curried syntax.
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2020-06-02T16:56:06Z phoe: (I personally see such a define for the first time! TIL it's even possible)
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2020-06-02T16:56:18Z pjb: (define (x y) z) == (define x (lambda (y) z))
2020-06-02T16:56:33Z pjb: it's recursive, x can also be a list.
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2020-06-02T16:56:52Z max3: pjb what's the point of that? i don't have much experience but i thought relying on currying was an implementation detail? ala all of haskell's function are actually curried
2020-06-02T16:57:18Z pjb: max3: silliness.
2020-06-02T16:57:20Z max3: but the syntax doesn't need to explicitly show it (you can parens wrap -> in type defs for functions)
2020-06-02T16:57:39Z max3: lol that's not the answer i expected
2020-06-02T16:57:40Z pjb: max3: it's like C using the same syntax for types and for expressions defering.
2020-06-02T16:58:06Z max3: sorry don't know what you mean by that - what's "expressions" defering" in C?
2020-06-02T16:59:31Z pjb: typedef int *ipointer;  ipointer p;  *p=42
2020-06-02T17:00:04Z pjb: instead of the more sane form: type ipointer = ^integer; p:ipointer; p^=42;
2020-06-02T17:00:49Z max3: oh you mean derefing
2020-06-02T17:00:50Z pjb: And of course, it's worse when you combine that with arrays, functions, structures, etc.
2020-06-02T17:00:59Z pjb: Yes, sorry.
2020-06-02T17:02:04Z max3: i'll move to scheme in a second but - is currying the only way to define multi param functions in mit scheme? do you know?
2020-06-02T17:02:31Z phoe: multi param?...
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2020-06-02T17:02:38Z phoe: (define (foo x y z) (+ x y z))
2020-06-02T17:02:39Z pjb: max3: no, it's not multi-parm.
2020-06-02T17:02:43Z pjb: it's functions returning functions.
2020-06-02T17:02:44Z phoe: (foo 1 2 3) ;=> 6
2020-06-02T17:03:40Z pjb: (define (((a x) y) z) b) = (define ((a x) y) (lambda (z) b)) = (define (a x) (lambda (y) (lambda (z) b))) = (define a (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (lambda (z) b))))
2020-06-02T17:03:51Z max3: pjb yes of course but that's my point about haskell - the effect is multiparam functions
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2020-06-02T17:04:03Z pjb: contrarily to some other functional programming languages, functions returning functions are not curried at call time.
2020-06-02T17:04:04Z max3: i have no idea how you guys read lisp
2020-06-02T17:04:14Z phoe: max3: practice. :D
2020-06-02T17:04:29Z pjb: Here, you have to write explicitely (((a 1) 2) 3), you cannot write (a 1 2 3).
2020-06-02T17:04:43Z max3: here where? here in lisp?
2020-06-02T17:05:04Z pjb: So this currying exists in scheme only in define.
2020-06-02T17:05:51Z max3: but in this scheme flavor i see things like (* 1 2 3) -> 6
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2020-06-02T17:18:16Z phoe: that's a different thing
2020-06-02T17:18:37Z phoe: (a 1) returns a function, this function is then applied to 2 and this application returns another function; that another function is then applied to 3
2020-06-02T17:18:45Z phoe: (* 1 2 3) returns a number, not a function
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2020-06-02T17:39:07Z rpg: Do we believe that cl-json is no longer maintained? or am I just not finding the authoritative git repo.  What I see on github.com/hankhero hasn't had any commits in 6 years.
2020-06-02T17:39:45Z rpg is not trying to accuse anyone of anything, just determine the state of affairs
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2020-06-02T17:41:01Z Bike: well that's what quicklisp has
2020-06-02T17:41:35Z rpg: Bike: OK, Xach's estimate of what's canonical is good enough for me.
2020-06-02T17:44:47Z theseb: Bike: I've never hard of "image based programming" until this channel from phoe...It bugs me that programmers all over the world can go their entire careers w/o ever learning about it
2020-06-02T17:44:58Z phoe: hey, that's normal
2020-06-02T17:45:27Z theseb: Bike: it isn't something that shows up enough that someone can even accidentally stumble upon it
2020-06-02T17:45:30Z phoe: there's ton of other things that many Lispers can never hear about and have satisfying programming careers
2020-06-02T17:45:43Z theseb: heard*
2020-06-02T17:45:55Z phoe: same with other programming languages
2020-06-02T17:46:09Z phoe: see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=545821 for a good argument
2020-06-02T17:46:18Z theseb: phoe: every tech needs a gentle way to be introduced to it
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2020-06-02T23:46:40Z thmprover: Is there a slick way to hook into emacs, to create the "(defpackage <path-as-package> (:use :cl)) (in-package <package-name>)" automatically when creating a new lisp file in my system?
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2020-06-02T23:50:01Z thmprover: Looks like a slightly contrived emacs skeleton...
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2020-06-03T02:57:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-03T03:46:39Z borei: hi :beach
2020-06-03T03:48:05Z borei: quick question - is there any recommendation in regards to the library to work with date/time ?
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2020-06-03T03:53:28Z edgar-rft: borei: depends on you requirements, for simple things Common Lisp has built-in stuff, but if you need astronomical precision over hundreds of years things start to become hairy, see http://naggum.no/lugm-time.html
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2020-06-03T03:55:58Z edgar-rft: borei: an overview what's available can be found here -> https://www.cliki.net/time
2020-06-03T03:56:17Z borei: mainly need to get high res (miliseconds - micorseconds) timestamps
2020-06-03T03:56:26Z borei: yep i found that link
2020-06-03T03:56:44Z borei: seems like local-time - it's what im looking for
2020-06-03T04:00:22Z edgar-rft: borei: Common Lisp has GET-INTERNAL-REAL-TIME giving times in INTERNAL-TIME-UNITS-PER-SECOND resolution, maybe that's sufficient for your needs?
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2020-06-03T04:00:36Z edgar-rft: clhs get-internal-real-time
2020-06-03T04:00:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_in.htm
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2020-06-03T04:34:22Z phoe: borei: local-time gives you us precision
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2020-06-03T05:24:56Z drmeister: What is the emacs package for editing files on a remote system?
2020-06-03T05:27:28Z drmeister: tramp
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2020-06-03T05:36:24Z holycow: glad we could be of help
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2020-06-03T07:50:45Z flip214: what's the name if I create a dialect of Lisp to specifically solve some business problem in terse form?
2020-06-03T07:50:56Z flip214: small business language? no, it was something different
2020-06-03T07:52:25Z beach: What makes you think there is a widely agreed-upon name for such things?
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2020-06-03T07:55:42Z heisig: flip214: Domain-specific language?  Business rule engine?
2020-06-03T07:56:25Z flip214: heisig: DSL, thanks
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2020-06-03T07:57:12Z beach: But the term DSL is not reserved for Lisp dialects, of course.
2020-06-03T07:57:49Z beach: And you can create a DSL as an embedded language, as OnLisp describes.
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2020-06-03T09:22:38Z flip214: I've got a function calling CL-PPCRE:SCAN with the RE coming from an argument; the function is declared INLINE, but I still have CL-PPCRE:CREATE-SCANNER calls in a profile dump.
2020-06-03T09:23:14Z flip214: I'd have expected that when the function gets inlined the (constant) string argument could be compiled by CL-PPCRE during compilation, not during runtime?!
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2020-06-03T09:25:26Z phoe: flip214: create-scanner, or a closure returned by create-scanner?
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2020-06-03T09:40:55Z pjb: flip214: argument vs. constant?
2020-06-03T09:42:02Z pjb: flip214: also, inline is not forced.
2020-06-03T09:42:41Z pjb: You can use a macro to force inlining it.
2020-06-03T09:43:02Z pjb: Also, with a macro, you can call create-scanner at macroexpansion-time.
2020-06-03T09:51:15Z flip214: phoe: CREATE-SCANNER is being called
2020-06-03T09:51:40Z flip214: pjb: the function that calls SCAN gets a static argument.
2020-06-03T09:51:55Z phoe: oooh, I see
2020-06-03T09:52:22Z flip214: is the only way to force inlining via a macro? hmmm, okay...
2020-06-03T09:53:03Z phoe: or a compiler macro
2020-06-03T09:53:10Z splittist: or run create-scanner at compile time
2020-06-03T09:53:14Z phoe: ^
2020-06-03T09:53:19Z phoe: SCAN is a GF, so it must be called at runtime
2020-06-03T09:53:45Z flip214: phoe: yeah, I'd hoped that inlining the parent function is sufficient
2020-06-03T09:55:09Z flip214: changed to a macro, runtime down from 1.4 to 0.9 seconds
2020-06-03T09:55:12Z flip214: thnks
2020-06-03T09:55:13Z flip214: *thanks
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2020-06-03T10:10:23Z flip214: sprof still gives me 10.7% of time in SB-DI::FILL-IN-CODE-LOCATION ... isn't that called only when compiling?
2020-06-03T10:11:08Z flip214: ah, got it
2020-06-03T10:11:12Z flip214: thanks anyway ;)
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2020-06-03T11:41:46Z dlowe: flip214: usually declaring a function as inline and setting optimize speed to 3 is sufficient
2020-06-03T11:42:15Z dlowe: you may have to reduce the debug optimization because inlining will interfere with backtraces
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2020-06-03T11:48:52Z flip214: ah, that might be the issue... so defmacro is the easy choice
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2020-06-03T11:59:14Z dlowe: Macros are more error prone, kind of the wrong level of abstraction, and can introduce loading order problems if you call any user-defined functions.
2020-06-03T11:59:42Z dlowe: On the other hand, using them for inlining has a nice certainty that dicking around with compiler settings doesn't
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2020-06-03T12:01:31Z dlowe: it says right there in the spec that the compiler can ignore inline declarations
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2020-06-03T12:01:51Z dlowe: which is kind of bs
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2020-06-03T12:29:20Z Shinmera: There are situations where it's useful for the compiler to be able to ignore them.
2020-06-03T12:29:59Z no-defun-allowed: Well, you wouldn't have to implement inlining then.
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2020-06-03T12:33:12Z no-defun-allowed: The only change to semantics that inlining provides is that redefining that function doesn't have to work "properly", so a conforming implementation could ignore inline declarations and everything would work fine (albeit slightly slower).
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2020-06-03T12:52:43Z flip214: Is there SBCL for AIX??
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2020-06-03T13:18:31Z dlowe: No, no, if I specify a thing that isn't default behavior and the compiler can't do it, I want a noisy failure
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2020-06-03T13:18:40Z dlowe: because if I specified it, I was depending on it
2020-06-03T13:20:54Z dlowe: (bonus if the compiler also makes noise if I'm trying to redefine an inline function)
2020-06-03T13:21:19Z dlowe: (all the bonus points if it keeps an inline function dependency tree to automatically recompile when needed)
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2020-06-03T13:21:59Z beach: Would that be conforming?
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2020-06-03T13:24:42Z phoe: Recompiling? I guess so
2020-06-03T13:24:48Z phoe: There is a mention in the spec somewhere about that...
2020-06-03T13:24:49Z phoe: clhs inline
2020-06-03T13:24:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_inline.htm
2020-06-03T13:25:28Z phoe: but I'd need to find it
2020-06-03T13:26:04Z phoe: oh! it's elsewhere
2020-06-03T13:26:07Z phoe: clhs dynamic-extent
2020-06-03T13:26:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_dynami.htm
2020-06-03T13:26:18Z phoe: "Only an implementation that was willing to be responsible for recompiling f if the definition of g changed incompatibly could legitimately stack allocate the list argument to g in f."
2020-06-03T13:26:48Z phoe: so I guess it could be similar in case of inline dependencies
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2020-06-03T13:52:16Z jackdaniel: https://gist.github.com/dkochmanski/959ec9ea865ea5e53c58c154f936fcb6 (an implementation sketch of conformally displaced arrays)
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2020-06-03T14:03:00Z Xach: axion: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-06-02/failure-report/doubly-linked-list.html#doubly-linked-list
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2020-06-03T14:04:49Z axion: Xach: Remember when I said avl-tree and doubly-linked-list have been deleted?
2020-06-03T14:05:05Z axion: They are now part of that new repository with correct dependencies
2020-06-03T14:05:14Z Xach: I missed the doubly-linked-list bit
2020-06-03T14:05:16Z Xach deletes
2020-06-03T14:05:28Z axion: Xach: also, did you get my message yesterday?
2020-06-03T14:05:33Z Xach: If it was on IRC, no.
2020-06-03T14:05:47Z axion: Xach: 3b's PR for xpb-exif is needed for the new pngload
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2020-06-03T14:07:20Z axion: err zpb-exif
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2020-06-03T14:07:52Z Xach: ok
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2020-06-03T14:18:04Z Xach wonders why cl-gserver hung during build a few hours ago
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2020-06-03T14:24:04Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: let me know if the travis-ci update suffices. the process confused me more than i expected so I might have done it wrong.
2020-06-03T14:24:33Z dlowe: Xach: I got a funny error on local-time where sb-bsd-sockets wasn't able to be required
2020-06-03T14:24:46Z Xach: dlowe: in the rss?
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2020-06-03T14:24:57Z dlowe: Xach: the problem is that stefil sucks in swank, which tries to require sb-bsd-sockets
2020-06-03T14:24:57Z Xach: dlowe: that was due to a bit of whiplash with how SBCL_HOME works, should be fixed now.
2020-06-03T14:25:04Z Xach: oh. hmm.
2020-06-03T14:25:06Z dlowe: ah, ok, thanks
2020-06-03T14:25:19Z Xach: if you mean the rss thing, anyway, it's resolved.
2020-06-03T14:25:31Z dlowe: It's a silly dependency. I'm probably going to change over to the fork soon.
2020-06-03T14:25:34Z Xach wonders about having state and 1) only reporting new errors and 2) reporting when errors are fixed.
2020-06-03T14:25:45Z Xach: but ugh, state
2020-06-03T14:25:54Z dlowe: not worth it imho
2020-06-03T14:26:02Z dlowe: I wasn't bothered
2020-06-03T14:27:02Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: ping re mailboxes in bordeaux-threads
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2020-06-03T15:03:03Z srazzaque: Curious question for all: in situations where you're consuming a library that de/serializes messages from <some format>, would you prefer the representation be in a (a) plist or a (b) alist, or (c) a CLOS object (assuming these messages are not particular large, <100 key-value pairs)
2020-06-03T15:04:17Z dlowe: it depends on how static those keys are
2020-06-03T15:04:50Z dlowe: if the messages have a defined schema that doesn't change a lot, I'd prefer a CLOS object
2020-06-03T15:05:15Z srazzaque: yep, the messages do indeed have a schema
2020-06-03T15:05:28Z dlowe: if the messages could contain anything (like a JSON blob) I'd probably prefer a plist or alist
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2020-06-03T15:06:57Z dlowe: Nested plists if the messages are hierarchical
2020-06-03T15:07:15Z srazzaque: Yep, makes sense.
2020-06-03T15:08:12Z srazzaque: I made the decision early on to go with CLOS objects for something I'm working on, but complexity and compilation times are getting, a bit high...
2020-06-03T15:10:53Z dlowe: you could be solving complexity in one spot instead of adding complexity all over, I can't tell from here
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2020-06-03T15:27:38Z Josh_2: afternoon all
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2020-06-03T15:27:51Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-06-03T15:53:55Z srazzaque: dlowe: it's definitely something I need to think through a bit more, but perhaps not at 2am :-)
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2020-06-03T16:39:06Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: see my comment on https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/pull/69
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2020-06-03T18:00:21Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: thanks, will do
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2020-06-03T18:38:56Z chrpape: >b
2020-06-03T18:39:16Z chrpape: Wrong window.
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2020-06-03T19:21:48Z ralt: luis: friendly reminder https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/164
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2020-06-04T03:03:10Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-04T03:18:24Z ArthurSt1ong: beach: good morning again
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2020-06-04T03:23:39Z beach: Thank you!  Today, I think I'll work on an abstract for a recorded talks that I have planned to give in the context of phoe's new initiative (the name of which I forget).
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2020-06-04T03:27:34Z ArthurSt1ong: beach: good luck
2020-06-04T03:27:52Z beach: Thanks!
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2020-06-04T03:44:53Z beach: This is a first attempt: http://metamodular.com/SICL/fcge-abstract.text
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2020-06-04T04:40:10Z splittist: beach: 'sandboxing' is missing its 'd'
2020-06-04T04:40:18Z beach: Oops.  Thanks.
2020-06-04T04:42:14Z beach: I didn't see it because 1. I am becoming more dyslexic over time, and 2. The spell checker doesn't recognize "sandboxing" anyway, so it was going to be flagged even with a `d'.
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2020-06-04T04:43:01Z beach: Fixed.  Thanks.
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2020-06-04T06:39:16Z phoe: beach: online Lisp meetings is the name
2020-06-04T06:39:34Z beach: Thanks!  Did you see the summary?
2020-06-04T06:39:34Z phoe: I didn't really think of anything more fancy since I don't think there needs to be anything more fancy
2020-06-04T06:39:39Z phoe: About to read it
2020-06-04T06:39:42Z beach: OK.
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2020-06-04T06:40:15Z phoe: OK, read it - I like it
2020-06-04T06:40:24Z beach: Great!
2020-06-04T06:40:39Z beach: Next, I'll work on recording the audio.  The slides are don already.
2020-06-04T06:40:44Z beach: It is a short presentation.
2020-06-04T06:40:50Z beach: I thought you should know.
2020-06-04T06:41:00Z phoe: No problem with that
2020-06-04T06:41:12Z beach: I'll submit it to you beforehand.
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2020-06-04T06:55:31Z MichaelRaskin: beach: sounds interesting and useful! and it looks like your work on SICL bootstrapping is now close to making FCGE's available to people who are not going to write implementation internals.
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2020-06-04T06:57:52Z beach: You may be right.
2020-06-04T06:58:17Z beach: I just realized that a good existing implementation is not very far from using something like first-class global environments.
2020-06-04T06:59:01Z beach: I mean, it just keep the classes, the (SETF <mumble>) functions, the global value cells, the MAKE-INSTANCE, etc. Somewhere.
2020-06-04T06:59:21Z beach: Probably in hash tables in special variables.
2020-06-04T06:59:58Z beach: So if they would just do the same for functions named by symbols, and global value cells, then they are half way there.
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2020-06-04T07:00:57Z phoe: > Probably in hash tables in special variables.
2020-06-04T07:01:09Z phoe: that's a "probably", yes
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2020-06-04T07:01:22Z MichaelRaskin: I would be wary about that effect that «getting 90% right there takes 90% of effort… and so does the second 90%»
2020-06-04T07:01:52Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Can you be more specific about your caution?
2020-06-04T07:02:05Z beach: phoe: Are you saying that it is definitely the case?
2020-06-04T07:02:06Z MichaelRaskin: I would expect a bit of special-case code for properly inlining the standard and defined-to-be-unredefinable functions like + — and like open
2020-06-04T07:02:18Z phoe: beach: I'll check CCL, one second
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2020-06-04T07:02:42Z beach: MichaelRaskin: How is that related?
2020-06-04T07:02:52Z beach: ... to first-class global environments, I mean?
2020-06-04T07:03:14Z phoe: beach: from CCL's lisp kernel, https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1902#1902
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2020-06-04T07:03:38Z MichaelRaskin: It is very likely to make support of FCGE's with _different_ #'cl:open maintenance-intensive
2020-06-04T07:03:46Z beach: phoe: Oh, wow!
2020-06-04T07:03:52Z phoe: package name, package predicate, value and function cells, symbol plist and flags that determine constantness, specialness, etc.., are all stored on the symbol
2020-06-04T07:03:55Z pjb: beach: (defun project-time (effort power) (if (< effort 0.00001) 0.0 (+ (* .9 effort power) (project-time (* 0.9 effort) power)))) (project-time 1.0 1.0) #| --> 8.999914 |#
2020-06-04T07:04:19Z beach: phoe: I see, yes.
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2020-06-04T07:04:37Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I don't understand why.
2020-06-04T07:04:44Z pjb: https://www.volersystems.com/project-management/228-why-the-last-10-takes-90-of-the-time/
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2020-06-04T07:05:05Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety-ninety_rule
2020-06-04T07:05:46Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I mean, it seems like an issue that is orthogonal issue to me.
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2020-06-04T07:06:59Z MichaelRaskin: Depends on the details of how this inlining is invoked
2020-06-04T07:07:13Z beach: pjb: I just don't see how first-class global environments would have any influence whatsoever on the applicability of that rule, nor on the inlining issues mentioned by MichaelRaskin.
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2020-06-04T07:07:39Z beach: MichaelRaskin: It does, but now you are definitely talking about a subject unrelated to first-class global environments, right?
2020-06-04T07:07:52Z beach: I mean, I don't see how inlining has anything to do with first-class global environments.
2020-06-04T07:08:04Z beach: It could be done the same way either way.
2020-06-04T07:08:19Z beach: And I absolutely don't see the relation to CL:OPEN.
2020-06-04T07:08:19Z pjb: beach: it's just a general rules.  But I would say that it's quite possible that it doesn't apply in your case, given the steady pace your working at.
2020-06-04T07:08:21Z MichaelRaskin: Well, if you talk about sandboxing, you need FCGE's with different #'cl:open
2020-06-04T07:08:45Z beach: pjb: I am sure it does apply, but I don't know how it is related to first-class global environments.
2020-06-04T07:08:46Z MichaelRaskin: And you need the inlining procedures for open to be different
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2020-06-04T07:09:16Z pjb: beach: it would be related to the implementation of any new idea.
2020-06-04T07:09:22Z MichaelRaskin: For SICL, your inlining code is structured in a way that swapping out a single function should not be a problem
2020-06-04T07:09:22Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Why do I need a different cl:open in order to get sandboxing?
2020-06-04T07:09:42Z MichaelRaskin: beach: why would I want sandboxing if I cannot restrict #'cl:open??
2020-06-04T07:10:36Z pjb: There are different environments, requiring different sandboxing. The CL environment (functions, variables, etc), the host file system environment, the network environment etc.
2020-06-04T07:11:11Z pjb: If you have an socket:connect, you may also want to sandbox your network node (use a different DNS, use virtual hosts, etc).
2020-06-04T07:11:20Z beach: MichaelRaskin: That's a narrow definition of "sandboxing".  I consider it essential for a Common Lisp implementation to be safe that appplication code can not alter the code generator of the compiler without some additional manipulation.  That's already sandboxing to me.
2020-06-04T07:12:01Z beach: And it doesn't influence cl:open in any way I can see.
2020-06-04T07:12:13Z pjb: MichaelRaskin: with the tools provided by sicl, you can provide your own CL:OPEN to sandbox the file system.
2020-06-04T07:12:31Z beach: But, I am probably wrong, given that it seems to be the consensus here lately.
2020-06-04T07:12:32Z MichaelRaskin: Well, sure, overwriting the compiled code cache does count as «special manipulation»
2020-06-04T07:12:52Z pjb: This would be required to avoid breaking out of the CL sandbox by generating a patched executable in the file system, and relaunching…
2020-06-04T07:13:08Z MichaelRaskin: pjb: yes, I have already said a few lines above that SICL is structured in a way that makes this a non-issue
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2020-06-04T07:14:15Z MichaelRaskin: Protecting the code generator by default is what SBCL can do (and I expect that it does) via package locks
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2020-06-04T07:23:59Z beach: phoe: Maybe I should not let you stream my presentation.  I mean, first-class global environments are useless anyway, since the same effect can be had with package locks.  Plus, it makes it necessary to change how inlining works, and it requires special definitions of CL:OPEN.  Worse, it makes the 90/90 rule much worse.
2020-06-04T07:25:27Z MichaelRaskin: beach: it doesn't make 90/90 rule worse — I just said that 90/90 rule applies to implementing FCGE's in existing implementations without rewriting
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2020-06-04T07:26:44Z MichaelRaskin: FCGE's in SICL, on the other hand, will be nice and useful and usable for defining a true sandbox for untrusted code with reasonable amount of work.
2020-06-04T07:27:04Z beach: This mode of discourse makes me tired, and I am not looking forward to answering remarks in real time when the presentation is streamed.
2020-06-04T07:28:14Z beach: Besides, I have more important work to do.
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2020-06-04T07:36:56Z MichaelRaskin: FCGE's as you actually do them in SICL are definitely great and whoever tunes in given the abstract is likely to recognise that. Sorry for not delineating clearly that I only reacted to the claim about likely costs of implementing FCGE's in arbitrary implementations
2020-06-04T07:37:39Z beach: OK.
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2020-06-04T07:38:54Z phoe: my worry is about some compilers that open-code some functions regardless of their actual fdefinition, cl:car being the prime example
2020-06-04T07:39:55Z phoe: obviously it would be weird to modify cl:car in a FCGE, but the compiler is pretty much allowed to do the same with all CL symbols, given that they are immutable
2020-06-04T07:40:30Z phoe: that sounds like work required to make these implementations play nicely with FCGEs integrated into them
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2020-06-04T07:41:27Z beach: Not SICL.  CAR is defined like this: (defun car (x) (if (null x) x (if (consp x) (cleavir-primop:car x) (error ...))))  And that definition is taken from the first-class global environment.
2020-06-04T07:41:52Z phoe: nice
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2020-06-04T07:42:31Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: even open-coding unrelated to definition _could_ be structured in a way that you could easily reconfigure it given an FCGE … or ti could be structured otherwise
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2020-06-04T07:42:55Z phoe: and, at the same time, not required of other implementations
2020-06-04T07:42:55Z MichaelRaskin: But SICL just does things in a carefully-structured and well-designed way
2020-06-04T07:43:01Z phoe: both SBCL and CCL do (defun car (x) (car x))
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2020-06-04T07:43:08Z phoe: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/blob/c444e10120159f9b388eb087699a7c28f2c0e384/level-0/l0-utils.lisp#L194
2020-06-04T07:43:11Z phoe: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/28ddc79abc9f119e3b0e0b5ec9b74222366303e5/src/code/list.lisp#L30
2020-06-04T07:43:29Z phoe: and work because the compiler transforms the seemingly endless recursion into an open-coded operation
2020-06-04T07:43:31Z beach: phoe: And comparing CCL's definition of symbols, here is the one in SICL (yes, it is in Common Lisp): (defclass symbol () ((%name :initarg :name :reader symbol-name) (%package :initarg :package :reader symbol-package)))
2020-06-04T07:43:48Z beach: phoe: That looks like a very bad idea to me.
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2020-06-04T07:45:03Z phoe: beach: bad idea unless you consider the standard, which implies that this is allowed; and that the implementations have used that for decades since portable bootstrapping is a very new idea and FCGEs is a very very new idea
2020-06-04T07:46:26Z phoe: the currently alive implementations simply assume that the global environment is a singleton and are structured fully around that idea
2020-06-04T07:46:31Z beach: I am not saying it is not allowed.  Just that I think it is a bad way of structuring an implementation, first-class global environments or not.
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2020-06-04T07:46:59Z phoe: okay, understood
2020-06-04T07:47:01Z beach: CAR is not primitive enough to be special-cased.
2020-06-04T07:47:10Z beach: cleavir-primop:car is.
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2020-06-04T07:47:29Z beach: I mean, if you special-case CAR, why not also FIND?
2020-06-04T07:47:37Z phoe: that's the idea
2020-06-04T07:47:43Z phoe: I bet some implementations do that
2020-06-04T07:47:49Z beach: I hope not.
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2020-06-04T07:48:09Z beach: They might inline it, or pick a special version of it.
2020-06-04T07:48:14Z phoe: I think that SBCL open-codes MAP and friends into more optimized variants
2020-06-04T07:48:29Z beach: But I don't think you have (defun find (...) (find ...))
2020-06-04T07:48:35Z phoe: oh, that's correct
2020-06-04T07:48:41Z phoe: CL:CAR is a compiler primitive in SBCL and CCL
2020-06-04T07:48:54Z beach: Yes, I understand, and I think it is a bad idea.
2020-06-04T07:48:59Z beach: [to repeat myself]
2020-06-04T07:49:02Z phoe: yep, understood
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2020-06-04T08:20:35Z pjb: beach: the problem is not the definition of CAR, but that of COMPILE. (COMPILE '(lambda (x) (car x))) may do the same as (compile '(lambda (x) (cleavir-primop:car x)))
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2020-06-04T08:21:16Z pjb: phoe: this means that if you modify any function in CL you must also modify CL:COMPILE to ensure open-coding the new definition or no open-coding. Also the compiler-macros!
2020-06-04T08:23:30Z pjb: beach: the compiler may also not special case the CL functions, but just inline them all.  Or have compiler-macros on them to special case them. etc.
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2020-06-04T08:24:31Z pjb: Or, said otherwise, it's not because an implementation such as sicl allows you to mutate operators in CL, that the CL rules about them don't apply.
2020-06-04T08:24:51Z pjb: ie. it's implementation defined, what happens if you fmutate CL:CAR and (COMPILE '(lambda (x) (car x)))…
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2020-06-04T08:30:30Z beach: I hope I didn't imply any such thing.  All I said was that CAR is not primitive enough to be considered a primitive.
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2020-06-04T08:32:28Z pjb: in sicp.
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2020-06-04T08:32:58Z pjb: other implementations could use a different definition for different safety levels, and therefore consider it a primitive (at least in (safety 0)).
2020-06-04T08:33:02Z beach: Plus, the Cleavir compiler can be customized, so it does not have cleavir-primop:car hardwired in it.  It is just a default thing.  Client code can have other definitions of CAR and define compiler methods to deal with whatever it defines CAR to be.
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2020-06-04T08:33:29Z pjb: sicl clearly introduces a level of meta, discussions will be difficult…
2020-06-04T08:33:47Z beach: Other implementations can do whatever they like as far as I am concerned.
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2020-06-04T08:34:50Z beach: Contrary to apparent appearances, I am not particularly interested in discussions like this.
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2020-06-04T10:27:01Z beach: phoe: I am reading your code for the portable condition system.  It looks quite good.  Later, I might suggest some changes to it so as to make it easier to adapt to different clients.  I would much prefer to use it as is, with customizations, as opposed to using a modified copy of it.
2020-06-04T10:29:16Z beach: One immediate thing I suggest would be to use disembodied documentation strings in a separate file, so as to allow client code to modify them more easily.
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2020-06-04T10:33:36Z phoe: beach: no problem! Thanks.
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2020-06-04T10:34:55Z beach: Disembodied documentation strings also make the code less "nosy" to the maintainer, who presumably already knows what these functions are supposed to do.
2020-06-04T10:35:05Z beach: "noisy", sorry.
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2020-06-04T10:35:48Z beach: The code is surprisingly short.  Very impressive.
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2020-06-04T10:39:12Z pjb: ABCL 1.7.0 released: https://abcl.org/releases/1.7.0/
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2020-06-04T10:46:38Z phoe: beach: I'll need to make branches in this code anyway. One version, with inline documentation strings, will be intended for readers of my condition book; the other will be useful for integrating into e.g. SICL with docstrings moved aside and generic hooks into macroexpansions available - in the way you described where GFs can be called with custom clients.
2020-06-04T10:47:19Z phoe: That's required since we have two possible groups of audiences for the condition system: one who wants to understand how it works, and the other who wants to use it in real-life projects.
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2020-06-04T10:49:51Z beach: I fully understand.
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2020-06-04T11:03:46Z phoe: pjb: thanks for the news. easye: congrats!
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2020-06-04T11:08:12Z easye nods.
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2020-06-04T11:16:17Z jmercouris: beach: PDF version of cluffer? do you reccommend I use it in Next?
2020-06-04T11:20:34Z jmercouris: anyone used Cluffer? example of how ot use it?
2020-06-04T11:23:02Z jmercouris: fingers crossed I can make the documentation...
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2020-06-04T11:26:28Z jmercouris: it seems to freeze on my system when I try to make the documentatino
2020-06-04T11:26:32Z jmercouris: even though LaTeX works
2020-06-04T11:26:41Z jmercouris: anyone able to generate the documentation for: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer ?
2020-06-04T11:28:04Z jackdaniel: it builds without a problem, did you try to troubleshot your latex installation?
2020-06-04T11:28:07Z jackdaniel: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/e067e594-cluffer.pdf
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2020-06-04T11:28:29Z jmercouris: 'make all' just freezes, no messages, nothing
2020-06-04T11:28:31Z jmercouris: thanks for building the PDF
2020-06-04T11:28:39Z jackdaniel: did you try to type "make" ?
2020-06-04T11:28:52Z jmercouris: I typed 'make all'
2020-06-04T11:29:03Z jackdaniel: that's not the question I've asked
2020-06-04T11:29:06Z jmercouris: 'make' by itself also appears to be frozen
2020-06-04T11:29:12Z jackdaniel: that's not an answer to a question I've asked*
2020-06-04T11:29:42Z jackdaniel: either way it worked without issues here, so it must be your installation
2020-06-04T11:29:44Z jmercouris: just stuck here: https://i.imgur.com/RJwn4Dy.png
2020-06-04T11:29:48Z jmercouris: yes, it must be
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2020-06-04T11:34:15Z _death: the console window's title suggests that it's the tr program, and it's likely waiting for input..
2020-06-04T11:34:57Z jmercouris: yes it does, but what is the TR program?
2020-06-04T11:35:01Z _death: man tr
2020-06-04T11:35:45Z jmercouris: that's very descriptive, but not very enlightening, another day :-) I am reading the manual now
2020-06-04T11:37:08Z jackdaniel: the point being made is that you can easily check what is the program tr instead of asking (given my understanding is correct)
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2020-06-04T11:38:20Z _death: if you seek enlightenment, you need to investigate the issue until it arrives
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2020-06-04T11:43:26Z jmercouris: that is true
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2020-06-04T11:50:31Z jmercouris: anyone know of any projects that have used cluffer?
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2020-06-04T11:55:00Z jmercouris: I grepped my quicklisp directory, couldn't find anything
2020-06-04T11:55:20Z jmercouris: yes, I know about climacs
2020-06-04T11:56:32Z _death: I used it in my tui project.. though I've not been working on it for a while
2020-06-04T11:56:55Z jmercouris: _death: was it good? would you recommend it?
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2020-06-04T11:58:28Z jackdaniel: _death: tui project? I can't find it on your github account with simple looking for "tui" or "text"
2020-06-04T11:59:42Z _death: sure.. the code isn't hard to understand, and there's documentation.. there could be an operator to erase the buffer's contents (right now I create a new buffer instead)
2020-06-04T12:00:02Z _death: you won't find it because >90% of my personal code is not on github
2020-06-04T12:01:40Z jackdaniel: if you happen to publish it sometime let me know, I'm curious because I'm writing a similar thing right now
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2020-06-04T12:04:18Z _death: for now I have a gist containing one module (text-display.lisp) https://gist.github.com/death/c08917417b7acef288dcd28e9eb2c440
2020-06-04T12:04:29Z jackdaniel: thank you
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2020-06-04T12:06:21Z jackdaniel: I like the split of interfaces for "full" and "incremental" render
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2020-06-04T12:07:50Z _death: I still need to read your latest tutorial.. when I skimmed it it seemed to have some interesting keybindings mechanism
2020-06-04T12:08:39Z jackdaniel: the next part is about rethinking output and input, so some things will change. that said parsing will stay more or less the same
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2020-06-04T12:09:28Z jackdaniel: if you just want to look at the code, here it is: https://turtleware.eu/static/misc/01-controlling-the-terminal.tar.gz
2020-06-04T12:10:13Z _death: thanks
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2020-06-04T12:20:57Z _death: I have some old screecasts of the tui thing at https://adeht.org/casts/tui.html
2020-06-04T12:21:23Z jackdaniel: oh, it has even a menu
2020-06-04T12:21:47Z jackdaniel: the quote in a second screencast is funny :)
2020-06-04T12:23:01Z _death: yes.. there's still a lot missing
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2020-06-04T12:40:02Z beach: jmercouris: I developed it for Second Climacs, but it is a general library, and it has been thoroughly tested.  The documentation should be complete as well.
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2020-06-04T12:41:26Z beach: jmercouris: I believe it is good in that it allows for several views into one buffer, and each view can have a different way of presenting the contents, including a different parser for the buffer contents.
2020-06-04T12:41:37Z jmercouris: beach: Yeah, I've begun playing around with it
2020-06-04T12:41:57Z jmercouris: I'm going to attempt to replace our own buffer implementation with one of the supplied ones
2020-06-04T12:41:57Z jmercouris: well, our minibuffer implementation
2020-06-04T12:42:00Z beach: Now, I don't know that you need all that stuff for Next, though.
2020-06-04T12:42:22Z jmercouris: not all of it, but it is a good protocol
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2020-06-04T12:43:10Z jmercouris: what's strange to me is that you can insert something like (cluffer:insert-item y "aj")
2020-06-04T12:43:14Z beach: Thank you.  It took me around 30 years to get it to what I now think is right. :)
2020-06-04T12:43:18Z jmercouris: I would have thought it would complain that "aj" is a sequence or something
2020-06-04T12:43:44Z beach: No, any object can be inserted.  Including imagines and movies.
2020-06-04T12:43:54Z jmercouris: I don't fully understand the principles behind the implementation yet, but I at least can use simple-line so far :-D
2020-06-04T12:44:13Z jmercouris: one question I do have is this
2020-06-04T12:44:20Z jmercouris: why no initform for a cursor line slot?
2020-06-04T12:44:25Z beach: Use standard-line.  Simple line was developed just for testing purposes.
2020-06-04T12:44:34Z jmercouris: why must I attach it after creation?
2020-06-04T12:45:13Z jmercouris: sorry, :initarg is what I meant to say above
2020-06-04T12:45:15Z beach: I don't remember.  Sorry.  Does the creation know which buffer is meant?
2020-06-04T12:45:35Z jmercouris: No, you have to create a cursor, and then attach it to a buffer
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2020-06-04T12:45:48Z beach: Yeah, that sound more reasonable.  I also don't remember why that is
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2020-06-04T12:46:29Z jmercouris: well, I'm sure there is some reasoning :-D
2020-06-04T12:46:37Z beach: I would assume so. :)
2020-06-04T12:46:38Z jmercouris: because it is very much explicit
2020-06-04T12:46:50Z jmercouris: maybe I will figure it out in time, anyways, with your blessing, i will try this
2020-06-04T12:46:56Z beach: Anyway, standard-line uses a gap buffer which is efficient.  simple-line uses a list as I recall.
2020-06-04T12:47:06Z jmercouris: yes
2020-06-04T12:47:18Z jmercouris: I was just looking at simple-line because it was "simple"
2020-06-04T12:47:22Z jmercouris: and I wanted to understand
2020-06-04T12:47:28Z beach: Sure, I'll try to assist as much as I can.  I may need some time to re-read the code to answer questions.
2020-06-04T12:48:33Z jmercouris: no worries, i'll let you know in the coming days if i have any questions
2020-06-04T12:48:49Z beach: Sounds good.  Good luck!
2020-06-04T12:49:00Z jmercouris: thanks!
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2020-06-04T16:28:40Z ralt: jackdaniel: sorry
2020-06-04T16:29:52Z jackdaniel: ralt: sorry for what?
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2020-06-04T16:32:09Z ralt: jackdaniel: for the late comment on the bt MR
2020-06-04T16:33:26Z jackdaniel: hm, now that I think about these timeouts I think that we should not put a timeout in acquire-lock
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2020-06-04T16:33:29Z jackdaniel: I'll elaborate in the PR
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2020-06-04T16:39:01Z jackdaniel: ralt: also, pointing out potential problems in the code is something to be thanked for, not to be sorry about, hence thank you! :)
2020-06-04T16:39:46Z ralt: It's more the "point out a problem, point out another problem in the next iteration" thing I'm apologizing for
2020-06-04T16:39:57Z ralt: Could've done both at once
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2020-06-04T16:41:10Z jackdaniel: right
2020-06-04T16:41:35Z ralt: jackdaniel: your argument probably works in the general case but starts failing in the case of under pressure environments
2020-06-04T16:41:51Z ralt: Whether you care or not is up to you guys
2020-06-04T16:42:08Z jackdaniel: I can do both, I'll wait for fe[nl]ix decision
2020-06-04T16:42:16Z ralt: Processes get preempted etc.
2020-06-04T16:42:46Z ralt: Well, if you do the timeout for lock, then every signature needs to have the timeout, including the count ones
2020-06-04T16:43:42Z ralt: The "read fixnum without lock" thing should be easy to test, actually
2020-06-04T16:43:59Z ralt: Just spawn 1k threads reading the value, another 100 threads modifying it after taking a lock, and see if everything dies
2020-06-04T16:44:59Z jackdaniel: regarding timeout for count ones, why would that be necessary? if I call mailbox-empty-p I would assume, that it will wait until the lock can be taken
2020-06-04T16:45:24Z jackdaniel: sorry, I need to go now (I'll read a backlog and check the PR later)
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2020-06-04T16:55:35Z ralt: Why if you don't want to block?
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2020-06-04T17:01:31Z axion: I'm having a lot of fun working on a new library for a change for creating generative art :)
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2020-06-04T17:08:18Z scymtym: axion: is it wave function collapse?
2020-06-04T17:09:27Z axion: Nah, though I started working on a port the same author's ConvChain a while ago, which can be guaranteed to terminate, unlike WFC :)
2020-06-04T17:09:55Z scymtym: i see, thanks
2020-06-04T17:10:20Z axion: Just doing basic noise algorithms and a composition pipeline https://gist.github.com/mfiano/0ae825095bd26c4b6eda3e203b38da7d
2020-06-04T17:12:38Z scymtym: nice
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2020-06-04T19:50:07Z vutral: Practical Common Scheme
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2020-06-04T20:05:17Z phoe: wait what
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2020-06-04T21:33:25Z jmercouris: I'm looking at Qlot right now, at this function specifically https://github.com/fukamachi/qlot/blob/master/install/quicklisp.lisp#L16
2020-06-04T21:33:34Z jmercouris: how does it fetch the installer???
2020-06-04T21:33:51Z jmercouris: it is supposed to call http-fetch, but it is just not actually fetching..
2020-06-04T21:34:46Z jcowan: How can I find standard functions that return two values, either the result or #t if there is a result, or #f #f if there isn't one?  hashref works like this, but what else
2020-06-04T21:35:41Z jcowan: ?
2020-06-04T21:36:12Z Shinmera: Wrong channel?
2020-06-04T21:36:43Z jcowan: sorry, make that T and NIL
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2020-06-04T21:37:02Z Shinmera: There's also no hashref
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2020-06-04T21:37:35Z jmercouris: (ql::http-fetch "http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp" #P"/Users/jmercouris/Downloads/quicklisp-JBCUCRBI.lisp")
2020-06-04T21:37:37Z Shinmera: As for 'how', you'll have to go through the symbol index.
2020-06-04T21:37:39Z jmercouris: Does not make a file, why not?
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2020-06-04T21:38:05Z jmercouris: can anyone confirm if ql:http-fetch is working on their machines as I expect it to be for myself?
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2020-06-04T21:38:45Z jmercouris: I also tried the variation: (ql-http:http-fetch "http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp" #P"/Users/jmercouris/Downloads/quicklisp-JBCUCRBI.lisp")
2020-06-04T21:38:49Z jcowan: gethash, of course
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2020-06-04T21:39:07Z jcowan: Anyway, what else uses that result protocol?
2020-06-04T21:39:12Z _death: function-lambda-expression returns 3 values, that you can think of as generalized booleans.. same goes for get-properties
2020-06-04T21:40:23Z Shinmera: Not sure about standard functions, but a bunch of libraries make use of that convention.
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2020-06-04T21:43:03Z _death: jmercouris: wfm
2020-06-04T21:43:15Z jmercouris: WHAT
2020-06-04T21:43:19Z jmercouris: hm, that's frustrating
2020-06-04T21:43:26Z jmercouris: it must be OS specific or configuration specific
2020-06-04T21:43:28Z Shinmera: jmercouris: if it didn't work, the quicklisp-installer wouldn't work either.
2020-06-04T21:43:43Z jmercouris: Yes, that's what I deduced
2020-06-04T21:43:51Z _death: jmercouris: you could try wireshark.. or adding print statements..
2020-06-04T21:44:07Z Shinmera: or trace OPEN
2020-06-04T21:44:14Z jmercouris: adding print statements? where is http-fetch even defined?
2020-06-04T21:44:36Z _death: don't think you can trace CL operators
2020-06-04T21:44:38Z jmercouris: I don't even know to which system the ql-http package belongs
2020-06-04T21:45:11Z _death: M-. is your friend?
2020-06-04T21:45:18Z jmercouris: it puts me to a strange file
2020-06-04T21:45:28Z jmercouris: it takes me to here: /Users/jmercouris/Source/Lisp/qlot/proxy.lisp
2020-06-04T21:45:44Z Shinmera: _death: it's not required to work but you can do it
2020-06-04T21:46:14Z jmercouris: I don't understand all of this indrection in proxy.lisp
2020-06-04T21:46:20Z jmercouris: why!?
2020-06-04T21:46:29Z jmercouris: I'm sure there is some reasoning, what it is, I can't know
2020-06-04T21:46:32Z _death: jmercouris: does it redefine ql-http:http-fetch?
2020-06-04T21:46:40Z jmercouris: (setf (fdefinition (find-symbol (string '#:http-fetch) '#:ql-http))
2020-06-04T21:46:47Z _death: ouch
2020-06-04T21:47:16Z jmercouris: I mean it kind of makes sense I guess, maybe
2020-06-04T21:47:22Z jmercouris: probably a lot of hacks to get Qlot to work
2020-06-04T21:47:42Z jmercouris: https://github.com/fukamachi/qlot/blob/master/proxy.lisp
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2020-06-04T21:48:56Z _death: well, now can see which one is to blame.. (I've a good guess)
2020-06-04T21:48:56Z jmercouris: _death: to clarify, did ql-http:http-fetch work for you?
2020-06-04T21:49:05Z _death: yes.. but I don't have qlot
2020-06-04T21:49:15Z jmercouris: yes, let me try in a fresh image without qlot quickloaded
2020-06-04T21:49:30Z jmercouris: this time, it worked
2020-06-04T21:49:38Z seoushi: http-fetch works for me. Had to be in the ql package tho since http-fetch is not external
2020-06-04T21:49:54Z jmercouris: you must have ql::http-fetch or ql-http:http-fetch
2020-06-04T21:50:15Z jmercouris: _death: what is your guess?
2020-06-04T21:51:02Z jmercouris: also what is qlot://localhost/???
2020-06-04T21:51:18Z jmercouris: qlot is a protocol now?
2020-06-04T21:52:16Z jmercouris: hm I changed it to #-quicklisp, and it worked
2020-06-04T21:52:24Z jmercouris: interesting...
2020-06-04T21:52:44Z jmercouris: can you enlighten me what this is trying to do? add proxy support to quicklisp?
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2020-06-04T21:55:47Z _death: if the url begins with the qlot prefix, it makes sure *proxy-url* is nil
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2020-06-04T21:56:11Z jmercouris: sure, but why?
2020-06-04T21:56:14Z jmercouris: what does that achieve?
2020-06-04T21:56:26Z jmercouris: the branch I can understand no problem
2020-06-04T21:56:35Z jmercouris: I'm wondering about a bigger picture explanation
2020-06-04T21:56:41Z jmercouris: why would this ever be necessary???
2020-06-04T21:56:58Z jmercouris: anyways, thanks for the debugging help
2020-06-04T21:57:19Z _death: I don't know much about qlot
2020-06-04T21:58:04Z jmercouris: same :-D
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2020-06-04T22:05:40Z _death: Shinmera: interesting that it works (for OPEN).. thanks
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2020-06-04T22:35:01Z jcowan: Shinmera: Thanks
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2020-06-05T03:10:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-05T04:10:49Z emacsomancer: morning, beach!
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2020-06-05T06:33:26Z phoe: beach: regarding the shortness of the condition system, the original isn't very long either - see http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Revision-18.lisp
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2020-06-05T06:36:21Z phoe: the largest bloaters, size-wise, are all the DEFINE-CONDITIONs. And the largest bloater, cognition-wise, IMO, is HANDLER-CASE with its :no-error case
2020-06-05T06:38:18Z phoe: as Stas once said, a condition system is easy; dynamic variables, UNWIND-PROTECT, and GO/RETURN-FROM are hard
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2020-06-05T06:42:37Z beach: phoe: I see, yes.  We have already taken care of the hard parts in SICL then.
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2020-06-05T06:45:19Z phoe: glad to hear that
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2020-06-05T06:49:01Z beach: phoe: Would you like to work on SICL with us?
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2020-06-05T06:50:06Z phoe: beach: I will possibly be able to contribute a thing or two, sure. My main focus will be CLUS as soon as my book is finished, but I think I'll be able to add this or that to SICL in meantime.
2020-06-05T06:50:38Z beach: Sounds great!  Do you have a preferable subject you would like to dig into?
2020-06-05T06:50:50Z phoe: the condition system, unsurprisingly
2020-06-05T06:50:55Z beach: Sure.
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2020-06-05T08:45:04Z heisig: I was just made aware that PLDI 2020 is hosted online and participating is for free: https://conf.researchr.org/home/pldi-2020
2020-06-05T08:45:11Z heisig: The registration deadline is today.
2020-06-05T08:45:54Z heisig: (I know this is not strictly on topic, but it might interest plenty of people nevertheless)
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2020-06-05T08:57:04Z easye: heisig: Thanks for the info on PLDI.  Interesting to me...
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2020-06-05T09:09:02Z beach: heisig: That's good news.
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2020-06-05T10:10:59Z McParen: hello
2020-06-05T10:11:03Z phoe: heyyy
2020-06-05T10:11:04Z phoe: what's up
2020-06-05T10:11:41Z splittist: the PLDI talk on Debug Information Validation for Optimized Code looks interesting
2020-06-05T10:11:55Z McParen: I'm looking for a form that seturns the setf accessor for a symbol the same way fdefinition returns the reader
2020-06-05T10:12:05Z McParen: is there a canonical way to do this?
2020-06-05T10:12:05Z phoe: (fdefinition '(setf gethash))
2020-06-05T10:12:23Z phoe: ;=> #<FUNCTION (SETF GETHASH)>
2020-06-05T10:12:59Z McParen: yes, but I'd like to have gethash be a dynamic parameter?
2020-06-05T10:13:16Z jackdaniel: mind that not all setf-able places have a function
2020-06-05T10:13:17Z McParen: oh, that works
2020-06-05T10:13:24Z phoe: (let ((x 'gethash)) (fdefinition (list 'setf x)))
2020-06-05T10:13:25Z flip214: McParen: (fdefinition (list 'setf function-symbol))
2020-06-05T10:13:37Z phoe: ;=> #<FUNCTION (SETF GETHASH)>
2020-06-05T10:13:56Z McParen: thanks, I've tried every combination except this one, damn.
2020-06-05T10:14:01Z White_Flame: (let ((sym 'gethash)) (fdefinition `(setf ,sym))) ;=> #<FUNCTION (SETF GETHASH)>
2020-06-05T10:14:24Z phoe: note that this is allowed to fail, see e.g. (fdefinition '(setf getf))
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2020-06-05T10:24:25Z ldb: hello
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2020-06-05T10:26:07Z ldb: yes on ccl (fdefinition '(setf gethash)) fails
2020-06-05T10:27:59Z phoe: oh right! it doesn't need to be portable
2020-06-05T10:28:13Z phoe: clhs gethash
2020-06-05T10:28:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gethas.htm
2020-06-05T10:28:29Z phoe: CCL defines a non-function setf expansion for gethash.
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2020-06-05T10:56:24Z pjb: McParen: the problem as you noted, is that there is NO setf accessor for random places.
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2020-06-05T10:57:42Z pjb: McParen: It can be a special case of the SETF macro, it can be a defsetf (2 forms) or a define-setf-expander, or it can indeed be a function named (setf foo).  For places defined in CL, and defstruct, you cannot expect anything.  Only for your own definition of a (setf foo) function (or generic function).
2020-06-05T10:57:43Z jackdaniel: (setf (random) 5) #| based on a dice roll |#
2020-06-05T10:59:05Z pjb: McParen: If you want to extract some information about the implementation of gethash, you can use (macroexpand-1 '(setf (gethash k h) e)) #| --> #+ccl (ccl::puthash k h e) ; t |#
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2020-06-05T10:59:48Z pjb: For people who like to talk about primitives, well, (setf (gethash k h) e) IS a CL primitive! :-)
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2020-06-05T11:02:25Z jackdaniel: having (setf foo) as a valid function name is such an ugly exception
2020-06-05T11:02:28Z jackdaniel: in cl
2020-06-05T11:03:03Z shka_: ugly but practical i guess
2020-06-05T11:03:04Z dlowe: clever, though
2020-06-05T11:03:10Z shka_: fiat multipla of cl
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2020-06-05T11:04:08Z jackdaniel: dlowe: care to elaborate?
2020-06-05T11:05:31Z _death: some implementations extend this practice.. e.g. (cas foo)
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2020-06-05T11:08:03Z dlowe: jackdaniel: avoids name clashes
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2020-06-05T11:08:29Z jackdaniel: I don't understand
2020-06-05T11:09:06Z pjb: jackdaniel: agreed. 1- implementations can allow other lists as function names, perhaps user-defined lists. 2- all places should be defined by such function (but let's check whether it's really possible for all of them).
2020-06-05T11:09:08Z no-defun-allowed: Less annoying than (set-foo <instance> <new-value>), but I guess it could well be generalised to any list as a name. (SBCL does that at least?)
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2020-06-05T11:09:34Z pjb: _death: what implementation extends it?
2020-06-05T11:09:34Z jackdaniel: no-defun-allowed: I'm not saying that setf is a bad idea, I'm explicitly talking about functions named (setf foo)
2020-06-05T11:09:38Z _death: pjb: sbcl
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2020-06-05T11:09:46Z dlowe: jackdaniel: what would you have them be named?
2020-06-05T11:09:52Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: that would take a lot of time to put in to cl standard
2020-06-05T11:09:53Z pjb: What does (cas foo) mean? where are they used?
2020-06-05T11:10:13Z shka_: pjb: compare-and-swap?
2020-06-05T11:10:31Z _death: pjb: it stands for compare-and-swap.. (describe 'sb-ext:cas)
2020-06-05T11:10:39Z jackdaniel: dlowe: setf expansions doesn't have to be functions (and often they are not)
2020-06-05T11:10:40Z pjb: ok. So a kind of setf.  Nice.
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2020-06-05T11:11:11Z jackdaniel: if you really want to have a function, then name it whatever you like, and make setf expansion use it
2020-06-05T11:11:32Z pjb: and 3- the standard doesn't force implementations to use implementation specific mechanisms or defsetf/get-setf-expansion, instead of all (setf foo).
2020-06-05T11:11:35Z jackdaniel: but this doesn't matter, I'm just saying that this is an ugly exception and I was surprised that you've called it clever
2020-06-05T11:11:43Z pjb: But again, there may be a case or two where get-setf-expansion is required…
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2020-06-05T11:12:32Z phoe: some implementations just do stuff like (fdefinition '(setf gethash)) ;=> #<FUNCTION |SETF Expansion for GETHASH|>
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2020-06-05T11:13:19Z dlowe: jackdaniel: if there has to be a name, it's a clever way to name it so that name collisions are not possible.
2020-06-05T11:14:03Z jackdaniel: this argument is not convincing to me. thanks for elaborating though
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2020-06-05T11:15:02Z _death: if (setf foo) was not treated as a function name.. things could still look the same, except you'd have to resolve it yourself before funcall/apply, no?
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2020-06-05T11:15:55Z jackdaniel: yes, given that it expands to a function call
2020-06-05T11:15:56Z _death: (and of course eval)
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2020-06-05T11:16:53Z jackdaniel: defgeneric-star in clim is an interesting example of defsetf use with functions
2020-06-05T11:17:17Z _death: jackdaniel: would you prefer that?
2020-06-05T11:17:49Z jackdaniel: what I prefer what? that (setf foo) is never a function? sure, but it doesn't bother me much
2020-06-05T11:18:11Z jackdaniel: so I won't demand a new standard ;-)
2020-06-05T11:18:27Z _death: jackdaniel: that everything is the same except a (setf foo) list can't be passed to funcall/apply
2020-06-05T11:18:28Z easye: Hmm. Trying to run McCLIM I get the "McCLIM was unable to configure itself automatically..." condition.  The system I am running on is macOS which seems to have both XQuartz and MacPorts X11 packages installed which is what I suspect is causing the confusion.
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2020-06-05T11:18:59Z easye: I don't really remember much about fontconfig under X11.  Is there a resource somewhere that could be recommended to refresh my memory?
2020-06-05T11:19:16Z jackdaniel: _death: sure, then function names could always be compared with eq in the compiler ,)
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2020-06-05T11:19:33Z jackdaniel: easye: McCLIM looks for TTF fonts in standard locations
2020-06-05T11:19:59Z jackdaniel: a homegrown renderer with kerning and stuff is used instead of X11 fonts
2020-06-05T11:20:09Z easye: Well, some of the TTF fonts are present, but not DejaVuSansMono
2020-06-05T11:20:38Z jackdaniel: I think that restart allows you to provide some other ttf. I want to bundle default fonts with McCLIM in the future
2020-06-05T11:20:41Z jackdaniel: but I didn't get to it yet
2020-06-05T11:20:41Z easye: At least not under <file:/opt/X11/...> where McCLIM seems to be searching.
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2020-06-05T11:21:44Z _death: jackdaniel: function-name-equal or hash is only slightly more complex :)
2020-06-05T11:21:44Z jackdaniel: easye: you may push :mcclim-ugly to features
2020-06-05T11:21:53Z jackdaniel: to use x11 fonts
2020-06-05T11:21:55Z Xach: hmm, has static-vectors changed recently?
2020-06-05T11:22:07Z easye: Yeah. there is a restart for specifying an alternate font path, but not an options to merge.
2020-06-05T11:22:27Z jackdaniel: _death: as I said, I don't think it is critical in any way, it is just an ugly irregularity
2020-06-05T11:22:55Z _death: jackdaniel: ok :)
2020-06-05T11:22:57Z phoe: Xach: "sionescu Release 1.8.5 Latest commit b6bd0e6 yesterday"
2020-06-05T11:22:58Z jackdaniel: (which in my eyes doesn't have a fair justification)
2020-06-05T11:23:08Z Xach: it is breaking a project
2020-06-05T11:23:09Z easye: Xach:  static-vectors got a patch from me for ABCL recently.
2020-06-05T11:23:27Z phoe: and a series of patches from fe[nl]ix two days ago
2020-06-05T11:23:34Z easye: Xach: what's the breakage?
2020-06-05T11:23:40Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-06-05/failure-report/cl-mpi.html#cl-mpi
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2020-06-05T11:24:22Z Xach: I'm guessing https://github.com/marcoheisig/cl-mpi/blob/master/mpi/utilities.lisp#L135 maybe
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2020-06-05T11:24:50Z phoe: can't :element-type be a variable in there though?
2020-06-05T11:25:21Z easye: Xach:  it seems that your code is treating array-element-type as a symbol for some reason.
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2020-06-05T11:25:32Z Xach: it's not my code.
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2020-06-05T11:25:52Z Xach: and it has not changed in a long time.
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2020-06-05T11:26:04Z phoe: suspicious: https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors/commit/8e38de3935902de49c3f309c2a8f9faf7143f0d2
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2020-06-05T11:26:50Z _death: constantp is very tricky
2020-06-05T11:27:13Z _death: it could return true but does not guarantee that the constant value is available
2020-06-05T11:27:34Z jackdaniel: constant-and-ready-for-business-p
2020-06-05T11:27:46Z phoe: (let ((element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) (static-vectors:with-static-vector (vector 8 :element-type element-type) (print vector)))
2020-06-05T11:28:55Z phoe: Xach: https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors/issues/27
2020-06-05T11:29:21Z pjb: Try it: (defun |SETF Expansion for FOO| (v x) 'hi) (defun (setf foo) (v x) 'lo)
2020-06-05T11:29:55Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: ^
2020-06-05T11:30:14Z pjb: It'd better be #<FUNCTION #:|SETF Expansion for GETHASH|>
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2020-06-05T11:38:05Z Xach: phoe: thank you
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2020-06-05T11:43:30Z ralt: I wonder if it's possible to implement yield/coroutines almost painlessly with some abort-thread/restarts tricks...
2020-06-05T11:43:59Z ralt: or only restarts, maybe
2020-06-05T11:44:02Z phoe: ralt: you still need to unwind the stack when you leave the coroutine
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2020-06-05T11:47:33Z jackdaniel: there is a library green-threads, maybe you can find some inspiration there?
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2020-06-05T11:54:13Z flip214: ain't coroutines mostly Continuation Passing, ie. the CPS transform?
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2020-06-05T11:58:05Z heisig: I just checked - green-threads uses cl-cont.  So it uses CPS.
2020-06-05T11:59:14Z jackdaniel: afair cl-cont is made in a roundabout way due to lack of the implementation support
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2020-06-05T11:59:45Z dlowe: green threads are substantially less useful when I/O blocks every thread
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2020-06-05T12:04:35Z ralt: dlowe: green threads are substantially more useful when I/O blocks every thread, because then you can use an epoll-based event loop
2020-06-05T12:05:47Z dlowe: blocks every green thread, I should say
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2020-06-05T12:08:14Z ralt: jackdaniel: the issue is that ideally you need to find a way to monkey patch standard library functions (read-sequence etc) so that you can transparently switch to green threads
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2020-06-05T12:08:49Z ralt: or you can do cl-async etc but it becomes hairy.
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2020-06-05T14:22:33Z roelj: So, how would you read from a gzip-compressed file with Common Lisp?
2020-06-05T14:22:49Z roelj: (or any gzip-compressed bytestream..)
2020-06-05T14:23:46Z phoe: looks like gzip-stream might be useful
2020-06-05T14:24:26Z Shinmera: roelj: If it should be reasonably fast, https://github.com/3b/3bz
2020-06-05T14:28:08Z roelj: Thanks.  That gives good starting points :)
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2020-06-05T14:41:21Z |3b|: 3bz is probably still slow with actual CL streams, so manually buffer those into ram if you need that
2020-06-05T14:42:38Z |3b|: should be reasonably fast from actual files it can mmap, or from (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)), or foreign pointers
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2020-06-05T14:43:30Z |3b|: (currently lacks much testing beyond being used for loading pngs though, if you manage to break it let me know)
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2020-06-05T15:58:51Z phoe: Xach: static-vectors is updated
2020-06-05T15:59:26Z rpg: Quick SLIME question: I have updated to master recently and the C-c L <x> chords don't work for me any more.  I get the prompt after C-c L but after that no keystroke moves me to a new buffer and I have abort out of the minibuffer.  Anyone else seeing this? Seems like the input parser isn't accepting any of my characters.  When I look in the messages buffer, it looks like my characters are getting upcased so that slime is seeing, e.g., ?\R
2020-06-05T15:59:26Z rpg:  instead of ?\r...
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2020-06-05T16:03:46Z rpg: oh, I see... grrr....
2020-06-05T16:05:07Z phoe: hm?
2020-06-05T16:07:34Z rpg: Aquamacs....
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2020-06-05T16:10:17Z rpg: Aquamacs did a bad thing to redefine KEY-DESCRIPTION, but SLIME shouldn't use it the way it does, either -- it's making a pretty description specifically for display, and not for use matching.
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2020-06-05T16:33:36Z rpg: Is there any way to tell if a system is being loaded by Quicklisp or by ASDF without Quicklisp?
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2020-06-05T16:36:49Z phoe: rpg: define "loaded"
2020-06-05T16:37:00Z phoe: do you mean by #'ql:quickload or by #'asdf:load-system?
2020-06-05T16:37:10Z rpg: Is the top level call QUICKLOAD or LOAD-SYSTEM?
2020-06-05T16:38:39Z jcowan: There is no reason not to multiplex green threads on OS threads.
2020-06-05T16:40:58Z pjb: Moving slowly toward it:   Persistent Memory: Blurring the Difference Between RAM and Disk <https://blogs.oracle.com/database/persistent-memory-primer>
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2020-06-05T16:42:22Z phoe: rpg: the quicklisp-client code does not show anything
2020-06-05T16:42:56Z phoe: #'quickload calls #'autoload-system-and-dependencies which calls #'apply-load-strategy which calls #'asdf:load-system
2020-06-05T16:43:19Z phoe: with no dynamic variables bound in between that would show that ASDF is getting invoked from QL.
2020-06-05T16:43:57Z rpg: phoe: I was hoping there might be a dynamic binding or something.  Turns out ASDF's DEFSYSTEM-DEPENDS-ON doesn't work properly, so you may still have to put a manual LOAD-SYSTEM in an .asd file.  So you should really quickload instead of load-system if the asdf file is being loaded by Quickload rather than load-system.
2020-06-05T16:44:16Z phoe: rpg: doesn't work properly? What do you mean?
2020-06-05T16:45:12Z rpg: If you have a system that extends the initargs of DEFSYSTEM, then it will error out parsing the defsystem before it gets the defsystem-depends-on dependency loaded.
2020-06-05T16:45:48Z phoe: I see
2020-06-05T16:45:51Z phoe: rpg: we are going to hell for this, but you should be able to use ql::*macroexpand-progress-in-progress*
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2020-06-05T16:46:22Z phoe: this dynavar is bound to T just before ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM is called
2020-06-05T16:46:29Z phoe: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/blob/f8908b65be8dd3c21ebe476e4d89ecf6a2198c2c/quicklisp/setup.lisp#L158-L161
2020-06-05T16:46:50Z phoe: the definition is at L148
2020-06-05T16:47:50Z rpg: phoe: I should probably figure out how to extract :defsystem-depends-on **before** calling parse-defsystem, but ... 🤮
2020-06-05T16:48:20Z phoe: rpg: that would be much better, yes
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2020-06-05T16:48:39Z phoe: as for that variable, let us invoke Hyrum's Law
2020-06-05T16:48:44Z phoe: "With a sufficient number of users of an API, it does not matter what you promise in the contract: all observable behaviors of your system will be depended on by somebody."
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2020-06-05T17:01:21Z phoe: I mean, I think this is as good of a *quicklisp-operating-p* as we can get right now
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2020-06-05T17:13:58Z rpg: phoe: 👍🏻
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2020-06-05T18:49:51Z p_l: Weird question, but I have a bunch of code that might be only accessible short term from python, burgled batteries might not be enough (callbacks), does anyone have experience using CORBA or similar?
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2020-06-05T18:55:18Z fe[nl]ix: wow, CORBA. that's a name I hadn't heard in a while :D
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2020-06-05T18:56:27Z fe[nl]ix: since doing some work on Gnome 1 in high-school ~20 years ago
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2020-06-05T18:56:54Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: what do you need do to ?
2020-06-05T18:58:56Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: I have working OPC UA (industrial automation) library in Python, but the tasks I need to do with it are annoying to write in Python and wanted to use C Land have the python just so interface
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2020-06-05T19:01:45Z p_l: Gah
2020-06-05T19:01:48Z p_l: Autocorrupt
2020-06-05T19:02:23Z p_l: And wanted to use another language (CL) to drive actual logic with Python just as interface
2020-06-05T19:02:51Z p_l: Started to think CORBA might be a good idea fof minimal effort wrapper
2020-06-05T19:04:01Z p_l: Had we knew a lot more few weeks ago, I'd have just rewritten OPC UA code in CL
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2020-06-05T19:15:42Z heisig: p_l: You could use https://github.com/marcoheisig/cl4py, but I am not sure how well it fits your use-case.
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2020-06-05T19:26:18Z p_l: heisig: I'm more looking towards the opposite, minimizing presence of python and coding as much as possible in CL and PAIPROLOG
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2020-06-05T19:27:43Z jackdaniel: p_l: check out thrift
2020-06-05T19:28:08Z jackdaniel: it has support for both common lisp and python
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2020-06-05T19:29:14Z p_l: Is the CL binding in any better shape than protobufs, and did they fox the abysmal protocol situation since 2016? (used thrift in the past)
2020-06-05T19:30:10Z jackdaniel: I don't know what is the absymal protocol situation since 2016, so I can't say. I don't know what is the shape of protobufs, so can't help with that either.
2020-06-05T19:30:13Z _death: the cl-protobufs system looks pretty good.. there's also py4cl (2) btw
2020-06-05T19:32:35Z housel: I used CLORB to do CORBA from SBCL back in '07 or so
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2020-06-05T19:34:03Z p_l: Reason I consider CORBA over protobufs and thrift and the like - I could get away with writing no custom session / context handlers and just export python objects and consume them from CL
2020-06-05T19:34:20Z p_l: housel: how did it go for you?
2020-06-05T19:35:45Z housel: The IDL integration was convenient; beyond that I don't remember much
2020-06-05T19:36:38Z katco: is there somewhere other than the asd file something like this should live? i'm running into a problem wherein guix (linux distro) generates its own asd file to load precompiled fasls, and any top-level stuff in the original asd file doesn't come along for the ride. https://github.com/lmj/lparallel/blob/master/lparallel.asd#L31-L54
2020-06-05T19:38:04Z matzy_: ok i'm honestly really stuck, i've been googling and trying to figure this out since 9am, and i'm about to go crazy.  i'm using easy-routes (a wrapper lib for hunchentoot), but need to set my Access-Control-Allow-Origin and Content-Type.  I originally tried to set them at the top of the file, but wasn't having any luck.  So I tried setting them in
2020-06-05T19:38:05Z matzy_: a specific route, and i'm no longer getting any eval errors, but when i try to hit the route with my front-end it is saying in the console "No 'Access-Control-Allow-Origin' header is present on the requested resource", yet I specifically set that header in my route to "*"
2020-06-05T19:38:25Z katco: consequently, when the fasl is loaded, the runtime complains that it can't find `sb-cltl2` because it's only required in the asd file.
2020-06-05T19:38:47Z katco: is this a guix problem, or a lisp best practices problem?
2020-06-05T19:41:26Z matzy_: here's my server file: https://gitlab.com/cmatzenbach/matzy.com/-/blob/master/api/server.lisp
2020-06-05T19:41:39Z _death: katco: if guix "generates its own asd file" that definitely sounds like a guix problem
2020-06-05T19:42:39Z matzy_: testjson is the route i'm trying to get to work now
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2020-06-05T19:44:45Z katco: _death: well, maybe? but it's very similar to an asd file that might be generated with a `deliver-asd-op` which would also exhibit this problem
2020-06-05T19:45:24Z katco: guix just does it itself so that it can inject paths to dependencies, which are a bit special in guix
2020-06-05T19:46:44Z katco: maybe put more clearly: i think putting code in an asd file assumes that loading that asd file is the only way to utilize the library, which i don't think is always true (e.g. loading fasl files, or asd files generated by asdf).
2020-06-05T19:47:15Z katco: but i am here to check my suppositions! :)
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2020-06-05T19:51:05Z _death: katco: but it is the only way in practice
2020-06-05T19:51:25Z katco: do you mean it is the canonical way?
2020-06-05T19:51:47Z _death: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Other-code-in-_002easd-files
2020-06-05T19:52:44Z fe[nl]ix: .asd parsing is not pure, because of reader conditionals and the fact that any code can be defined there
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2020-06-05T19:53:19Z fe[nl]ix: so what guix does is doomed to fail. it just happens to work in some simple cases
2020-06-05T19:54:28Z fe[nl]ix: who wants an ASDF4 ? please raise hands :D
2020-06-05T19:54:29Z katco: well, guix has techniques to alter the packages being compiled. i'm just trying to determine if they need to be employed.
2020-06-05T19:55:14Z katco: but it sounds like code in asd files is an expected norm, and needs to be accounted for
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2020-06-05T19:57:20Z matzy_: nvm i FINALLY figured it out
2020-06-05T19:57:33Z matzy_: I was sending the same headers from the front-end too
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2020-06-05T20:03:10Z katco: ty for your input, _death and fe[nl]ix
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2020-06-05T20:10:24Z matzy_: wow, so it looks like the problem was defining the routes with easy-routes:defroute.  once i switched to hunchentoot:define-easy-handler everything worked fine.  does that make sense though?  i thought easy-routes was a light wrapper on top of hunchentoot
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2020-06-05T20:58:21Z resttime: Any CFFI maintainers here? I might have found a bug in cffi-libffi which I came across trying to pass a foreign structure by value to a varadic argument function
2020-06-05T20:59:56Z resttime: libffi docs say that ffi_prep_cif_var needs to be used in this case
2020-06-05T21:00:08Z resttime: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/doc/libffi-dev/html/The-Basics.html#The-Basics
2020-06-05T21:00:48Z resttime: The function doesn't seem to be defined although: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/libffi/libffi-functions.lisp
2020-06-05T21:01:14Z fe[nl]ix: resttime: open a bug on github
2020-06-05T21:02:46Z resttime: Bug reports are disabled
2020-06-05T21:04:11Z fe[nl]ix: on launchpad.net then
2020-06-05T21:04:26Z fe[nl]ix: luis: ping
2020-06-05T21:05:35Z resttime: Thanks, doing it now. Can't believe I overlooked that part in the readme
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2020-06-05T21:16:36Z luis: resttime: good thing we've added that link to bug tracker the other day! :D
2020-06-05T21:17:15Z luis: nobody checks project homepages anymore
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2020-06-05T21:18:12Z fe[nl]ix: luis: how about we just shutdown the launchpad tracker ?
2020-06-05T21:19:15Z fe[nl]ix: also, IMO the libffi integration is becoming more of a liability
2020-06-05T21:19:29Z fe[nl]ix: it has very few users and seems buggy
2020-06-05T21:30:31Z jmercouris: CL library to play sounds?
2020-06-05T21:31:04Z jmercouris: harmony is a bit too heavy
2020-06-05T21:31:59Z White_Flame: SDL?
2020-06-05T21:32:29Z jmercouris: could be, I thought that was only graphics?
2020-06-05T21:32:34Z jmercouris: https://github.com/ahefner/mixalot ?
2020-06-05T21:32:53Z White_Flame: SDL does gfx, input, sound, etc
2020-06-05T21:33:12Z White_Flame: but is intended to be a "simple" direct layer
2020-06-05T21:33:54Z resttime: I wrote some bindings to the BASS audio library before: https://github.com/resttime/bass
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2020-06-05T21:36:42Z resttime: I guess technically can also use the Allegro5 audio stuff with this: https://github.com/resttime/cl-liballegro
2020-06-05T21:36:57Z jmercouris: resttime: interesting
2020-06-05T21:38:17Z resttime: (somewhat related to earlier, the Allegro5 bindings is actually how I came across the CFFI bug https://github.com/resttime/cl-liballegro/issues/19)
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2020-06-05T22:25:00Z pve: In the glossary entry for compiler macro functions, it says that the function may return nil to indicate that the original form should not be replaced. Is it really so?
2020-06-05T22:25:14Z pve: sbcl seems to replace the form if I return nil
2020-06-05T22:25:31Z Bike: the glossary entry is incorrect.
2020-06-05T22:25:35Z pve: ok thanks
2020-06-05T22:25:42Z Bike: to indicate that the form shouldn't be replaced, you return the original form.
2020-06-05T22:25:47Z pve: yep
2020-06-05T22:25:55Z Bike: this will inhibit further compiler-macro-expansion so it won't loop forever.
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2020-06-06T00:48:20Z phoe: optionally you can expand into locally declare notinline if you want to return something that is not the original form but nonetheless has the function form for which the compiler macro is defined
2020-06-06T00:48:37Z phoe: that is to avoid infinite recursion for compiler macroexpansions
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2020-06-06T01:04:46Z PuercoPop: katco: Not sure if it is related to your issue but consider moving the code that pushes features to a before load-op operation. That way it always run when the system is loaded.
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2020-06-06T03:47:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-06T06:56:49Z easye: Arrg.  McCLIM doesn't seem to have remote X11 display working yet <https://pasteboard.co/JbNkDLX.png>.  At least I have an instance where the fontconfig autoconfiguration worked to figure out what a correct setup would be.
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2020-06-06T08:47:03Z iissaacc: sup g
2020-06-06T08:47:19Z no-defun-allowed: Hello iissaacc
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2020-06-06T08:47:57Z iissaacc: just started using common lisp so gonna lurk in here
2020-06-06T08:48:14Z iissaacc: its nice using irc again. been like 10 years
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2020-06-06T09:02:10Z beach: iissaacc: Welcome!
2020-06-06T09:02:28Z beach: iissaacc: Did you come to #lisp last time you used IRC?
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2020-06-06T09:02:38Z jackdaniel: iissaacc: hey!  enjoy :) if you have questions just ask them. there is also #clschool for very basic questions
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2020-06-06T09:19:13Z iissaacc: @beach nah i think i was downloading warez and trolling probably
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2020-06-06T09:19:39Z iissaacc: only got into programming later
2020-06-06T09:20:41Z iissaacc: python has everything but i wanted to try something new and different. and lisp seems very different, and its fast which is cool
2020-06-06T09:20:54Z iissaacc: almost too good to be true
2020-06-06T09:21:01Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
2020-06-06T09:21:09Z iissaacc: @jackdaniel thanks brah
2020-06-06T09:21:24Z beach smiles.
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2020-06-06T09:21:35Z iissaacc: also how cool is the image based system
2020-06-06T09:21:46Z no-defun-allowed: Probably 7/10 at least?
2020-06-06T09:21:55Z beach: iissaacc: The @ convention is not used on IRC.
2020-06-06T09:22:33Z beach: iissaacc: Just type the nick followed by a colon.  Your IRC client should complete for you.
2020-06-06T09:22:45Z no-defun-allowed: I mean, I don't save images to disk to work on programs like I imagine a Smalltalk programmer would, but sure, Common Lisp is very interactive, and you can do a lot without restarting the image.
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2020-06-06T09:23:39Z iissaacc: oh yep beach
2020-06-06T09:23:52Z pjb: beach: oh yep
2020-06-06T09:24:23Z iissaacc: sweet got it
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2020-06-06T11:05:16Z no-defun-allowed: Today I wrote a simple but quite fast regular expression engine using derivatives: <https://github.com/no-defun-allowed/one-more-re-nightmare>
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2020-06-06T11:06:14Z no-defun-allowed: It's not very important or timely; but it'd be nice if someone could skim over it and check if I did something terribly wrong (like not commenting enough, which I have).
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2020-06-06T11:12:36Z scymtym: easye: i haven't checked, but the error could mean that clx lacks implementation-specific socket-related functions for the implementation you are using (which seems to be abcl)
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2020-06-06T12:16:28Z iissaacc: actually i have a question
2020-06-06T12:16:30Z iissaacc: https://pastebin.com/Ja3Nvrrm
2020-06-06T12:16:57Z iissaacc: the last function here seems to be falling into an infinite loop and i cant see why
2020-06-06T12:17:31Z iissaacc: the input is enwiki8 a big text dump of wikipedia, about 100MB
2020-06-06T12:18:09Z iissaacc: there is lots of CPU activity initially and then nothing but nothing is evaluated
2020-06-06T12:19:23Z iissaacc: could anyone tell me what I am doing wrong? TIA
2020-06-06T12:21:51Z beach: Your code is very hard to read because of the indentation.  Did you have TAB characters in it?
2020-06-06T12:22:26Z iissaacc: just whatever the emacs default is
2020-06-06T12:23:02Z iissaacc: oh yeah the paste has screwed it up
2020-06-06T12:23:04Z beach: Yeah, that's the default.  I suggest you change that.
2020-06-06T12:23:27Z iissaacc: ok hold up
2020-06-06T12:25:23Z Bike: you can replace (hash-count-incr table key count) with (incf (gethash key table 0) count)
2020-06-06T12:26:03Z beach: iissaacc: To check what your function is doing, hit C-c C-c in SLIME and look at the backtrace.
2020-06-06T12:26:19Z beach: But I suspect chunk is the culprit here.
2020-06-06T12:26:44Z beach: I am thinking n is always greater than the length of the list.
2020-06-06T12:26:50Z Bike: it looks like the length of the list should decrease on each runthrough, though
2020-06-06T12:27:05Z Bike: unless it's infinite or n is zero, i guess?
2020-06-06T12:27:10Z beach: Exactly, so it gets even smaller.
2020-06-06T12:27:27Z Bike: right, so eventually n will be greater than the length and it will hit the base case.
2020-06-06T12:27:43Z iissaacc: beach: SLIME hangs so i cant get a backtrace
2020-06-06T12:27:44Z beach: Oh, sorry.  You are right.
2020-06-06T12:28:09Z Bike: iissaacc: hitting C-c C-c should interrupt the hang
2020-06-06T12:28:11Z beach: iissaacc: Make sure you hit C-c C-c very soon after you start your code.
2020-06-06T12:28:23Z iissaacc: ah ok ill just try that
2020-06-06T12:29:11Z beach: iissaacc: This is very strange code though.
2020-06-06T12:29:33Z beach: iissaacc: Why did you write a tail recursive function with an accumulator?
2020-06-06T12:29:57Z beach: ... rather than a loop.
2020-06-06T12:30:10Z iissaacc: i came from scheme
2020-06-06T12:30:26Z iissaacc: thats actually at the top of a long file it gets more idiomatic as it goes down i hope
2020-06-06T12:31:20Z beach: Is ACC going to contain a quadratic number of elements?
2020-06-06T12:31:45Z iissaacc: hmm
2020-06-06T12:32:05Z iissaacc: im reading the file line by line so it shouldnt get huge
2020-06-06T12:32:19Z iissaacc: chunk gets called for each line
2020-06-06T12:33:37Z beach: Aside from interrupting the execution, you could TRACE the CHUNK function before starting.
2020-06-06T12:33:43Z beach: That should give you a clue.
2020-06-06T12:33:54Z iissaacc: ive got the backtrace and its working as expected. but there are already a huge amount of entries in the hash table ~1sec after starting it
2020-06-06T12:34:07Z iissaacc: so maybe its a memory thing
2020-06-06T12:34:17Z iissaacc: beach: i will try that, thanks
2020-06-06T12:34:41Z beach: What are the keys of your hash table?
2020-06-06T12:34:46Z beach: I mean their types?
2020-06-06T12:34:50Z beach: Strings?
2020-06-06T12:35:39Z iissaacc: pairs of strings
2020-06-06T12:36:06Z beach: Does it look like your table contains duplicate keys?
2020-06-06T12:36:43Z beach: No, sorry, that should work.
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2020-06-06T12:38:16Z beach: Oh, and did you try with some smaller files?
2020-06-06T12:41:21Z iissaacc: beach: just with a 225kb or so one and it works
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2020-06-06T12:41:38Z beach: OK, so no infinite loop.
2020-06-06T12:41:50Z beach: Just a lot of data?
2020-06-06T12:42:46Z iissaacc: yep
2020-06-06T12:42:49Z iissaacc: although......
2020-06-06T12:43:14Z iissaacc: i just tried it again and i notice slime is spamming the file data in the REPL window
2020-06-06T12:43:38Z iissaacc: so maybe slime is trying to do that for the big one and getting stuck
2020-06-06T12:44:01Z beach: If you have some output, sure.
2020-06-06T12:44:23Z iissaacc: oh wait is that becuase I had (trace chunk)
2020-06-06T12:44:31Z beach: Ah, yes.
2020-06-06T12:45:13Z beach: You should know that Common Lisp does guarantee tail-call optimization, so I suggest you rewrite chunk using iteration.
2020-06-06T12:46:02Z beach: Later, when you get things to work, I have some other remarks on your code, but that can wait.
2020-06-06T12:46:35Z beach: For starters, I agree with Bike that your hash-set and hash-code-incr don't improve your code.
2020-06-06T12:47:44Z iissaacc: im keen to hear the remarks
2020-06-06T12:47:51Z _death: your chunk function is very inefficient.. subseq creates a copy of the subsequence, so (subseq list 1) creates a copy of (rest list) every time.. (length list) traverses the whole list where n could be very small, so you can replace the test with (nthcdr n list)
2020-06-06T12:48:37Z beach: iissaacc: I'll wait until you fix your indentation and the problems already mentioned.
2020-06-06T12:48:37Z iissaacc: _death: thanks!
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2020-06-06T12:50:54Z iissaacc: https://paste.ee/p/sXH7A
2020-06-06T12:52:35Z beach: Are you sure about that link?
2020-06-06T12:53:04Z beach: Ah my mistake.
2020-06-06T12:53:06Z beach: Got it.
2020-06-06T12:53:42Z beach: OK, so LOOP keywords like DO should be first on a line, not last
2020-06-06T12:54:44Z iissaacc: ok
2020-06-06T12:54:49Z beach: And LINE is not a Boolean value.  It is a string or the default value NIL.  But WHILE takes a Boolean value.  So it is better to replace WHILE LINE by UNTIL (NULL LINE)
2020-06-06T12:55:50Z _death: there's no need to use mapcar there, as you don't make use of the result
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2020-06-06T12:56:30Z beach: _death: Good catch.
2020-06-06T12:56:36Z iissaacc: got it
2020-06-06T12:58:52Z iissaacc: so you would use another nested (loop)
2020-06-06T12:59:04Z beach: You can use MAPC.
2020-06-06T12:59:18Z beach: It does not return anything, so it does not CONS.
2020-06-06T12:59:36Z beach: I mean, it returns something, but it doesn't CONS.
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2020-06-06T12:59:56Z beach: It doesn't return a list of the applications.
2020-06-06T13:00:06Z _death: there's also no need to call STRING, as line is already a string..
2020-06-06T13:00:14Z iissaacc: right! so its not allocating memory
2020-06-06T13:00:34Z iissaacc: _death readline was giving me an array of characters
2020-06-06T13:00:45Z _death: a string is an array of characters
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2020-06-06T13:02:00Z _death: hmm, I've been affirming the consequence.. :) but read-line gives you a string
2020-06-06T13:02:39Z _death: *consequent
2020-06-06T13:03:19Z iissaacc: the str:split was giving me an error unless i converted it that way...
2020-06-06T13:03:40Z beach: What's the error?
2020-06-06T13:04:12Z iissaacc: oh no youre _dead right
2020-06-06T13:04:17Z iissaacc: apologirs
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2020-06-06T13:06:28Z iissaacc: its slightly faster using mapc according to the time function and uses a bit less memory
2020-06-06T13:06:34Z iissaacc: good tip
2020-06-06T13:07:55Z iissaacc: ok i gtg bed but thanks for the help beach bike and _death
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2020-06-06T14:49:40Z katco: PuercoPop: re. your comment about moving code that pushes features to a before load-op operation. can you go into more detail? i tried `(defmethod perform :before ((o load-op) (c (eql (find-system :test)))))`, but that doesn't get run when the fasl is loaded.
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2020-06-06T16:28:39Z katco: so, it turns out this was an easy fix. i simply added `sb-cltl2` as a dependency for the `lparallel` system guarded by `#+sbcl`. it seems to me that this is the proper way to conditionally load things into an image, and it seems to be working with loading a generated fasl as well.
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2020-06-06T17:42:38Z joh11: Hi everyone ! I am currently tinkering with cl-opengl and sdl2. I managed to get the basic stuff up and running (hello world triangle and such), though I am stuck whenever I try to use more advanced features like VBO or shader programs. Could you help me sort this out ? I tried modifying the example given in cl-opengl "shader-vao.lisp" (it uses glut and i'd like sdl2), though I cannot make it display the triangles ... my code is here :
2020-06-06T17:42:38Z joh11: https://gist.github.com/Joh11/62c2929a5b648dddc322174e4d7c66c2
2020-06-06T17:42:52Z joh11: apart from that, do you have general advices to debug OpenGL code ? especially to see the data inside the buffers
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2020-06-06T17:46:04Z beach: joh11: You may have better luck during the week.  Weekends are slow here.  I guess most people have families to spend time with.
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2020-06-06T17:46:57Z joh11: ok @beach ! I'm brand new here. I will try on Mon
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2020-06-07T00:26:48Z drmeister: Does anyone know if quicklisp (ql:update-all-dists) supports deleting systems that are no longer provided by the distribution?
2020-06-07T00:27:20Z drmeister: We have a separate distribution called "quickclasp" for clasp-dependent systems.
2020-06-07T00:29:52Z drmeister: Wait - I have an idea.  I can (ql-dist:uninstall (ql-dist:find-dist "quickclasp"))
2020-06-07T00:30:28Z drmeister: and then (ql-dist:install-dist "http://thirdlaw.tech/quickclasp/quickclasp.txt") to reinstall quickclasp
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2020-06-07T00:56:02Z Xach: drmeister: (ql-dist:clean ...) will do it.
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2020-06-07T01:02:51Z drmeister: Xach: Thank you - so (ql-dist:clean "quickclasp") or the system names?
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2020-06-07T01:04:21Z drmeister: Xach: While I have you - are you able to pull a release into quicklisp?   https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads has been updated for clasp - but the quicklisp provided version is out of date and breaks.
2020-06-07T01:04:27Z drmeister: It's causing us some trouble.
2020-06-07T01:04:53Z drmeister: So much that I'm shadowing the quicklisp version with quickclasp.
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2020-06-07T01:06:03Z Xach: drmeister: the dist object
2020-06-07T01:06:24Z Xach: there will be a new quicklisp dist update tomorrow
2020-06-07T01:06:54Z drmeister: Excellent - I look forward to checking it out.  Thank you.
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2020-06-07T01:37:28Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: if I make a new release right now, will it end up in tomorrow's dist ?
2020-06-07T01:38:10Z fe[nl]ix: I've been going through the issue backlog this week, and there's still a bit more to do
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2020-06-07T03:00:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-07T10:49:46Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: of what?
2020-06-07T10:49:56Z Xach: oh, bordeaux-threads
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2020-06-07T11:59:22Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: static-vectors most likely
2020-06-07T11:59:42Z phoe: uh I mean
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2020-06-07T11:59:43Z phoe: Xach: ^
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2020-06-07T12:03:51Z Xach: phoe: why most likely?
2020-06-07T12:04:40Z phoe: I remember a discussion from one or two days ago that mentioned an issue with s-v
2020-06-07T12:04:58Z phoe: and I thought that fe[nl]ix's comment is a follow-up to that discussion
2020-06-07T12:05:09Z phoe: but then again I might not have all the required context
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2020-06-07T12:05:55Z Xach: phoe: i thought it was in regards to drmeister's context, needing a recent bordeaux-threads for clasp fixes.
2020-06-07T12:06:06Z Xach: the immediately preceding discussion
2020-06-07T12:06:08Z phoe: oh! welp, okay then
2020-06-07T12:06:17Z phoe: please disregard me
2020-06-07T12:06:17Z Xach: but only fe[nl]ix can resolve with certainty!
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2020-06-07T13:12:16Z easye: In response to phoe's ticket on STATIC-VECTORS, fe[nl]ix "pushed a fix and made a new release" <https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors/issues/27> "two days ago", so I would guess that Stellian considers the work not finished.
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2020-06-07T13:34:55Z lukego: hey what's a lightweight unit testing lib? like, to capture the kind of tests I usually just write at the repl? is there a really easy property-based tester too?
2020-06-07T13:36:20Z phoe: lukego: you are opening a can of worms
2020-06-07T13:36:46Z phoe: the most lightweight one you can use is DEFUN over a series of CL:ASSERT
2020-06-07T13:37:11Z phoe: for something just a wee bit more structured, 1AM has like a hundred times of easily readable code
2020-06-07T13:37:31Z easye is partial to PROVE.  And I write all my tests, perhaps inadvisably, in CL-USER. 
2020-06-07T13:37:42Z phoe: easye: welp
2020-06-07T13:38:00Z phoe: correct, I wouldn't advise that
2020-06-07T13:38:40Z easye: Still, what I get from PROVE is the most "natural" move from a REPL test, to something repeatable <https://github.com/armedbear/abcl/blob/master/t/byte-vectors.lisp>.
2020-06-07T13:39:27Z easye: My use of CL-USER is probably due to the fact that ABCL *still* doesn't do anything when re-eval'in a DEFPACKAGE form.
2020-06-07T13:39:37Z phoe: lukego: for property-based testing, I usually define the main body of a test inside a FLET and then MAPC APPLY that function over data
2020-06-07T13:40:50Z easye: Although PROVE has been deprecated from what I understand, so *really* don't follow my advice.
2020-06-07T13:41:30Z easye: I like that I don't have to name tests, but I can still associate a meaningful string naturally as a argument to each invocation.
2020-06-07T13:42:21Z phoe: lukego: or sometimes go for a DEFUN if the test body is shared between tests.
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2020-06-07T13:44:19Z easye looks up what a "property based test" would consist of.
2020-06-07T13:44:43Z easye: Guess I missed that bandwagon.
2020-06-07T13:44:45Z lukego: anyone use check-it? dunno whether to be bothered about no commits since 2015
2020-06-07T13:45:07Z phoe: lukego: the issue of unit testing frameworks in Common Lisp is a sensitive one in general
2020-06-07T13:45:22Z easye: I'm sure lukego is well aware of that, phoe.
2020-06-07T13:45:31Z phoe: oh, okay then
2020-06-07T13:45:34Z phoe: parachute user here
2020-06-07T13:46:22Z lukego: easye: property-based testing tbh I've never used but always wanted to. never seem to have a framework handy. idea is you give the test framework a generator for creating test data and it searches for an input to break the program. a bit like fuzzing
2020-06-07T13:46:48Z easye: Ah, so "iteration over a parameter space based testing"
2020-06-07T13:47:26Z lukego: yeah. where parameter space is basically a tree, and you gradually create larger trees while looking for a problem, then try to prune them back while preserving the brokenness
2020-06-07T13:47:37Z easye: Ooh, <https://github.com/Shinmera/parachute> has a PROVE compatibility mode.  Mebbe I should switch to something actually maintained.
2020-06-07T13:48:00Z lukego: (I've often wondered if there's a language-agnostic property testing framework e.g. based on text files and BNF grammars or something, maybe I should check)
2020-06-07T13:48:18Z easye: lukego: such testing sounds immensely applicable to the sort of network messaging code you are famous for.
2020-06-07T13:50:02Z lukego: the approach was pioneered by John Hughes in Haskell-land. Later he made a small company supplying test development services in Erlang. Seems that they found some extremely bad bugs that had been haunting core Erlang libraries for decades.
2020-06-07T13:50:39Z lukego: I think that  https://hypothesis.works/ is maybe the most prominent impl nowadays
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2020-06-07T13:51:14Z easye: Well, I guess I did something like "property based testing" back when I developed rootkits fuzzing system call parameters.
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2020-06-07T13:51:42Z lukego: fuzzers are so sophisticated nowdays, symbolic execution etc, that I wonder if it's worth having a compiler backend that generates whatever is the best input for them e.g. C in some idiom
2020-06-07T13:51:50Z easye: But that was in a pre-CL daze for me.  I guess I wrote that in C?  Wow.
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2020-06-07T13:53:18Z easye: A notch above a script kiddie, I was really.  And didn't know better...
2020-06-07T13:55:09Z lukego: I'm mostly procrastinating now I guess. I want to design my first printed circuit board now. obviously instead of learning how other people do it I want to write a lisp program to do it for me... found a promising algorithm from the literature that I need to implement
2020-06-07T13:55:36Z easye: A GA right?  (inferring from your questions the other day)
2020-06-07T13:57:19Z lukego: ultimately not. while floundering around I stumbled on what seems to be a goldmine of a thesis written by someone smart who knows what they are doing https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/18367/Yan_Tan.pdf
2020-06-07T13:57:44Z easye: Interesting.  Thanks for the link.
2020-06-07T13:57:51Z Shinmera: easye: I'm also easily reachable if you need help or improvements with parachute :)
2020-06-07T13:58:02Z lukego: Great starting point for me. They identify the major problems in PCB layout, give them a name and a crisp description in computer science terms (as opposed to EE), and then present simple solutions
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2020-06-07T13:59:45Z lukego: I'll be using "BGA" chips and I need to "escape route" them from underneath the chip out to the perimeter, as a first step before bringing them somewhere useful. he has an algorithm for doing. It's clever. He basically makes a graphviz-style graph out of the geometry under the chip (pins, spaces between pins, how many copper traces can fit through each space) and then hands that graph to a program called CS2 that ...
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2020-06-07T14:02:16Z easye: Shinmera: Noted.  You are definitely one of the most reachable figures in post-ANSI at this point . . .
2020-06-07T14:02:26Z lukego: ... applies a "minimum cost network flow" algorithm from operation research (or something) and spits out the most efficient routes for all the copper traces
2020-06-07T14:06:10Z lukego: (reminds me a bit of talking with Jim Newton at ECLM meetups. He was working on electronics design tools at a major vendor but it was all so abstracted that really he was dealing with geometry e.g. polygons rather than messy analog physics)
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2020-06-07T14:15:59Z lukego: I really miss the old ECLM meetups I have to say.
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2020-06-07T14:17:45Z Shinmera: lukego: fwiw I've long been thinking about a random testing system for parachute. would need a system to describe sequences of valid forms as well as invariants to test.
2020-06-07T14:17:53Z Shinmera: but I haven't yet had time to work out anything concrete
2020-06-07T14:18:06Z lukego: I'll check out parachute, thanks for noting that
2020-06-07T14:18:22Z Shinmera: Well it doesn't have random testing stuff yet, so :)
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2020-06-07T14:18:51Z lukego: I don't really need that atm anyway, just wondering if it's available :)
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2020-06-07T15:14:32Z grewal: If I'm writing a math-heavy script, would using latex-style variable names (such as F_{p^2}) be more or less readable?
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2020-06-07T15:16:09Z thmprover: It's better to use conceptual names rather than LaTeX names, in my experience
2020-06-07T15:16:56Z thmprover: Though it helps to make a comment of the form, "corresponds to F_{p^{2}} in <paper reference>"...at least, I find it useful for unintuitive names I use
2020-06-07T15:17:38Z phoe: I would consider the symbol F_{P^{2}} to be a really weird thing to see in Lisp source
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2020-06-07T15:20:22Z grewal: Using conceptual names is a good idea, thanks
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2020-06-07T15:53:31Z pjb: phoe: I prefer to use Fₚ²
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2020-06-07T15:54:08Z pjb: phoe: but not everybody can read it, so F_{P^{2}} can be a good alternative.
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2020-06-07T16:24:41Z thmprover: Are there functions to automatically update my .asd file's components as I add more files (and subdirectories) in my system?
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2020-06-07T16:28:36Z Pixel_Outlaw: Hmm how do I convert pathnames to strings to avoid the \\[ issue happening in some of the filepaths files here: https://i.imgur.com/yLH1yhs.png ?
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2020-06-07T16:32:12Z flip214: clhs namestring
2020-06-07T16:32:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_namest.htm
2020-06-07T16:32:27Z flip214: Pixel_Outlaw: ^^
2020-06-07T16:33:05Z Pixel_Outlaw: flip214: I think I may have tried that but I fussed in the REPL quite a bit. Let me try that quickly...
2020-06-07T16:33:48Z _death: uiop:native-namestring
2020-06-07T16:36:45Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ah it looks like _death's approach works. I wonder why namestring doesn't resolve it? Thanks.
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2020-06-07T16:40:01Z _death: namestring is useless because its output is implementation-dependent
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2020-06-07T16:42:29Z Pixel_Outlaw: I see, so for the sake of sanity one really should just reach for uiop when dealing with files.
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2020-06-07T16:43:14Z _death: unfortunately
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2020-06-07T16:44:56Z _death: this is one area where a CDR and defacto agreement among implementors could remove an embarrassment
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2020-06-07T16:51:32Z seok: morning!
2020-06-07T16:51:40Z seok: is (intern "x") same as (defvar x)?
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2020-06-07T16:53:43Z axion: Not even close. `defvar` will intern X and define a dynamic variable, optionally with a binding. `intern` will intern a symbol, and in the case a different one with the default reader settings (x vs X)
2020-06-07T16:54:49Z seok: What is the difference other than defvar can bind a value?
2020-06-07T16:55:23Z aeth: a symbol doesn't need to have a binding in any of the six(ish) namespaces and probably only has it in a few... defvar necessarily creates a binding but I think it can make it unbound if you just do (defvar x).
2020-06-07T16:55:39Z aeth: That is, with (defvar x) x exists and is unbound.
2020-06-07T16:55:47Z seok: Yes,
2020-06-07T16:56:10Z seok: I am confirming whether (defvar x) and (intern "X") is functionally equivalent
2020-06-07T16:56:15Z axion: Intern is an integral part of the Lisp reader, completely distinct from variables and bindings.
2020-06-07T16:56:56Z axion: Every time the Lisp reader encounters a symbol, it is checked to see if it is in symbol table under that package, and automatically interns it if not.
2020-06-07T16:57:03Z seok: (defvar x) does make x without a binding as aeth said
2020-06-07T16:57:21Z axion: You should never type (defvar x)
2020-06-07T16:57:29Z seok: Oh, why not?
2020-06-07T16:57:39Z axion: defvar creates a special variable, and we use earmuffs to denote them, since they are truly special.
2020-06-07T16:57:40Z seok: I do it all the time!
2020-06-07T16:57:46Z axion: (defvar *x*) in this case.
2020-06-07T16:57:49Z seok: oh you mean syntatically
2020-06-07T16:57:50Z seok: xD
2020-06-07T16:58:25Z seok: i don't want to type earmuffs everytime I use dummy variables for debugging tho
2020-06-07T16:58:27Z axion: You kind of need to know if a variable is dynamic or lexical.
2020-06-07T16:58:51Z axion: Then you will surely get bitten
2020-06-07T16:59:13Z seok: What are examples of lexical variables?
2020-06-07T16:59:29Z aeth: seok: (defvar x) will make (let ((x 42)) ...) not behave as expected.
2020-06-07T16:59:38Z seok: Wait really?
2020-06-07T16:59:46Z seok: lexical = local variables?
2020-06-07T16:59:54Z aeth: that LET will rebind the global dynamic variable x instead of creating a new, lexical binding
2020-06-07T16:59:55Z seok: I do it all the time tho,
2020-06-07T17:00:21Z seok: I probably shouldn't
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2020-06-07T17:01:34Z seok: so back to my initial question, what is the difference between (defvar *x*) and (intern "*X*")?
2020-06-07T17:02:09Z aeth: (defun foo (x) ...) or (defun foo () (let ((x ...)) ...) will be broken in unexpected ways when you (defvar x) because it creates a variable binding but "unbound"
2020-06-07T17:02:17Z aeth: and it's dynamic/special
2020-06-07T17:02:23Z aeth: *x* avoids that, of course
2020-06-07T17:02:30Z axion: One creates a symbol. One creates a (special) variable, after interning (a different) symbol.
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2020-06-07T17:02:54Z axion: Oh you changed the question, so no different symbol.
2020-06-07T17:02:56Z seok: I've been doing that, but havn't had a malfunctioning function or let clause
2020-06-07T17:03:16Z aeth: seok: If you think visually... You can think of a symbol as having six or so bindings, like this: [######] or if there are, say, only variable and function bindings but not the rest it would be like [##____]
2020-06-07T17:03:33Z axion: Symbols are objects like anything else in Common Lisp
2020-06-07T17:03:41Z axion: They have various fields (called cells)
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2020-06-07T17:03:42Z aeth: seok: (intern "*X*") makes it [______] while (defvar *x*) makes it [#_____]
2020-06-07T17:03:48Z aeth: even though the # is "unbound"
2020-06-07T17:03:55Z aeth: It's bound to unbound, essentially
2020-06-07T17:04:01Z aeth: A weird edge case.
2020-06-07T17:04:31Z seok: intern would give a warning if you setf it after it then?
2020-06-07T17:04:44Z aeth: Yes, you shouldn't set things without bindings.
2020-06-07T17:04:45Z seok: I see
2020-06-07T17:04:46Z axion: It is undefined behavior to setf it
2020-06-07T17:04:46Z seok: it does
2020-06-07T17:04:49Z seok: just tried it
2020-06-07T17:04:50Z aeth: (defvar *x*) makes it safe to set
2020-06-07T17:04:56Z seok: Right
2020-06-07T17:05:07Z aeth: A lot of languages are messy languages that don't distinguish between binding and setting, e.g. Python.
2020-06-07T17:05:11Z aeth: Most dynamic languages are like this.
2020-06-07T17:05:13Z seok: I know there is a variable cell and a function cell
2020-06-07T17:05:19Z seok: but 6 cells? what are the rest?
2020-06-07T17:05:20Z axion: and 3 other cells
2020-06-07T17:05:23Z aeth: CL is like a statically typed programming language in that you have to bind things first.
2020-06-07T17:05:42Z axion: name, package, value, function, plist
2020-06-07T17:06:00Z aeth: seok: The 6 cells in my example were the six namespaces.
2020-06-07T17:06:08Z axion: There are 5 cells
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2020-06-07T17:06:53Z aeth: seok: There are at least six namespaces. The three main ones are variable, function, type/class... and several niche ones like tags in TAGBODY. I think the rest are local though
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2020-06-07T17:07:51Z seok: oh there is a separate namespace for class?
2020-06-07T17:08:24Z aeth: seok: The best example is LIST. It's a type, a local variable (probably, at least), and a function.
2020-06-07T17:09:01Z aeth: (The standard's variable names in function APIs aren't authoritative, so I guess it's possible for LIST to not be used as a variable name anywhere in a Lisp image, but it's very unlikely.)
2020-06-07T17:09:20Z seok: list is unbound, but is locked by CL
2020-06-07T17:09:23Z seok: you are right
2020-06-07T17:09:33Z axion: There are an arbitrary number of namespaces. Norvig pointed out at least 7 standard ones in PAIP
2020-06-07T17:09:34Z seok: I can't (defvar list)
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2020-06-07T17:09:52Z aeth: seok: You can't globally bind list because then you'd change its binding from local lexical bindings to a global dynamic binding, and that would be bad
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2020-06-07T17:10:42Z seok: where can i learn about these namespaces?
2020-06-07T17:10:55Z aeth: seok: LIST is probably used as a variable in e.g. MAPCAR, but it doesn't have to be. e.g. in SBCL the API is (mapcar function list &rest more-lists)
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2020-06-07T17:11:29Z axion: Norvig claims there are at least 7 namespaces: functions and macros, variables, special variables, types, go/tagbody labels, block names, symbols within a quoted expression.
2020-06-07T17:11:36Z axion: You can read a book, in this case PAIP
2020-06-07T17:12:24Z seok: Thanks axion
2020-06-07T17:12:28Z seok: wow a book from 1992
2020-06-07T17:12:48Z aeth: axion: it's in the standard, actually, but it's not directly in the standard
2020-06-07T17:12:57Z aeth: so finding it is going to be a bit tricky
2020-06-07T17:13:14Z aeth: It's in 3.1.1. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_aa.htm
2020-06-07T17:13:39Z aeth: Unfortunately, it's 1996 unreadable so you have to go to 4 separate tiny subpages there to see the different ones
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2020-06-07T17:15:47Z aeth: axion: That's broken down by environments, though, so some bindings are duplicated, like variables
2020-06-07T17:16:23Z axion: I am aware. There are an arbitrary number of namespaces, though, with the programmer able to create more. That's why Norvig uses "at least"
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2020-06-07T17:17:03Z aeth: Right, you just need any of the macro kinds combined with a hash table and you can add your own for free.
2020-06-07T17:17:19Z axion: You don't even need a hash table
2020-06-07T17:17:29Z aeth: well, no, but it helps
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2020-06-07T17:20:59Z seok: (let (#'42) (+ . #'5))
2020-06-07T17:21:05Z seok: Do you know this?
2020-06-07T17:21:10Z seok: I don't get how this works
2020-06-07T17:21:14Z seok: this is sorcery
2020-06-07T17:24:35Z axion: #' is a reader macro
2020-06-07T17:24:41Z axion: It expands into (function foo)
2020-06-07T17:24:55Z axion: so (let ((function 42)) ..)
2020-06-07T17:25:40Z seok: Ah
2020-06-07T17:25:43Z seok: Ah1
2020-06-07T17:25:44Z seok: !
2020-06-07T17:26:05Z axion: (+ . #'5) expands to (+ function 5)
2020-06-07T17:26:19Z seok: indeed!
2020-06-07T17:26:24Z seok: same way it works for quote
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2020-06-07T18:01:27Z seok: Anyone familiar with connecting to websocket with ssl?
2020-06-07T18:01:38Z seok: https://github.com/fukamachi/websocket-driver I cannot get this one to connect to wss:
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2020-06-07T18:06:07Z jcowan: Is it correct that the only way to return from SIGNAL is by using a restart?
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2020-06-07T18:09:05Z heisig: SIGNAL can also return when the condition is not handled at all.  (Assuming the condition is not serious).
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2020-06-07T18:10:48Z zulu-inuoe: Yes, signal will simply return if no handlers do any transfer of control, even if the condition is serious. error only enters the debugger because it specifically says it does if no handlers transfer control
2020-06-07T18:10:57Z zulu-inuoe: > If the condition is not handled, signal returns nil.
2020-06-07T18:11:48Z phoe: jcowan: the only way to return from ERROR is transferring control because ERROR is SIGNAL + INVOKE-DEBUGGER
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2020-06-07T18:12:03Z jcowan: So if you want to guarantee that you never get back (except under restart control) you make sure your condition is a subtype of serious-condition?
2020-06-07T18:12:05Z phoe: the latter never returns, the former is allowed to return normally
2020-06-07T18:12:08Z phoe: no
2020-06-07T18:12:15Z phoe: (signal 'error) ;=> NIL
2020-06-07T18:12:15Z Bike: SIGNAL doesn't care about types
2020-06-07T18:12:25Z phoe: you want (error 'error)
2020-06-07T18:12:28Z zulu-inuoe: the type of the condition doesn't matter in any case
2020-06-07T18:12:29Z phoe: this never returns.
2020-06-07T18:12:34Z Bike: the only way to ensure SIGNAL never returns is ensuring that it's called in a dynamic environment with a handler that transfers control
2020-06-07T18:13:08Z jcowan: (Except for the fact that WARNING only accepts conditions of type WARNING, for no intelligible reason.)
2020-06-07T18:13:15Z phoe: yes, that is stupid.
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2020-06-07T18:28:02Z seok: Can you write a database in CL which can compete in performance with commonly used dbs like postgres?
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2020-06-07T18:28:42Z phoe: seok: sure you can, it'll just take tons of money, time, and effort
2020-06-07T18:28:54Z seok: How much money, time and effort?
2020-06-07T18:29:08Z seok: : D
2020-06-07T18:29:08Z Xach: seok: determining that will take an unknown amount of money, time, and effort.
2020-06-07T18:29:13Z phoe: ^
2020-06-07T18:29:34Z phoe: I'm not going to make the estimates; you can try to figure out how many man-hours went into making postgres as great as it is now, if you can afford the estimates as Xach said
2020-06-07T18:30:12Z Xach: the nice thing is you can copy some of the hard work and lessons without putting in all the hours to learn them
2020-06-07T18:30:13Z seok: Since lisp is such a great language, would it take less people and code?
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2020-06-07T18:31:17Z phoe: mu
2020-06-07T18:31:50Z pjb: seok: postgres was written in lisp originally.
2020-06-07T18:32:01Z seok: Oh
2020-06-07T18:32:05Z seok: that's new
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2020-06-07T18:32:31Z seok: Why did they move to C?
2020-06-07T18:32:37Z seok: Is C faster than lisp?
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2020-06-07T18:33:40Z pjb: seok: postgres started in 1982.  Let's estimate contributions of about 10 people per year for (- 2020 1982) #| --> 38 |# years, that gives 380 man.year. @ $100k /man.year, you need 38 millions to redo it in lisp.
2020-06-07T18:34:00Z pjb: seok: in 1982, CL didn't exist yet.  Lisp implementations didn't run on all computers.
2020-06-07T18:34:15Z pjb: seok: for the same reason, the core of GNU emacs is written in C too.
2020-06-07T18:34:42Z seok: Right
2020-06-07T18:34:51Z pjb: seok: even if it takes ten times less effort to do it in lisp, that's still 4 millions to invest.
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2020-06-07T18:36:12Z pjb: seok: now, if you build a startup and sell it, you would get probably more like 100 millions than 4 millions, so you may want to do something else than re-implementing stuff in lisp. For example, you could want to build space ships (or just robots to build moon and mars habitat, and hire spacex to send them there).
2020-06-07T18:36:59Z seok: Is the reason why lisp fell behind C in popularity this?
2020-06-07T18:37:09Z seok: Incompatibility with OS?
2020-06-07T18:37:20Z seok: Was CL too late?
2020-06-07T18:38:17Z jcowan: Lisp was and has always been too early and too much.
2020-06-07T18:38:34Z pjb: seok: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_ab.htm
2020-06-07T18:38:45Z seok: pjb nice thank you
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2020-06-07T18:39:21Z seok: Hm, it mentions history uptil 1986
2020-06-07T18:39:35Z jcowan: That's why its ideas dribble out one by one into "mainstream" languages.  Lisp 1 and Fortran I had jack in common.
2020-06-07T18:39:42Z pjb: seok: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp
2020-06-07T18:40:05Z pjb: seok: the ANSI standard document ANSI INCITS 226-1994 <-- is dated 1994.
2020-06-07T18:40:14Z seok: Yes I know this
2020-06-07T18:40:16Z pjb: The standardization process lasted 10 years.
2020-06-07T18:40:18Z _death: postgres paper https://db.cs.berkeley.edu/papers/ERL-M90-34.pdf talks about the Lisp.. its use was "a terrible mistake"
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2020-06-07T18:41:04Z seok: _death how do you find this, nice
2020-06-07T18:41:24Z jcowan: About the only things left are syntax extension via macros, the condition system, and ... anybody else can think of one?
2020-06-07T18:41:30Z pjb: The point here is that a database system is mostly I/O bound, so the programming language doesn't matter.
2020-06-07T18:41:41Z _death: seok: there are beasts on the web called search engines
2020-06-07T18:42:32Z seok: "Third, LISP execution is slow. As noted in the performance figures in the next section our LISP
2020-06-07T18:42:54Z seok: So they did feel that LISP was slow
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2020-06-07T18:43:04Z seok: at least in their skill level
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2020-06-07T18:43:40Z _death: a 3 megs for a hello world program was very large.. 1990
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2020-06-07T18:43:57Z seok: indeed
2020-06-07T18:44:01Z pjb: seok: there are a lot of database systems written in lisp, check http://cliki.net/database
2020-06-07T18:44:52Z seok: pjb, eh, but how many databases written in lisp are commercially relevant?
2020-06-07T18:45:31Z pjb: seok: as many as you wish: just write commercial products using them!
2020-06-07T18:45:48Z seok: I will raise some funds and give it a shot
2020-06-07T18:45:51Z seok: : D
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2020-06-07T18:50:16Z jcowan: That was the age of tiny memories, pausing GCs, and pessimizing compilers, which are the three major objections.  Debugging in two languages is still hard, but one would need a lot less C, perhaps none, today.
2020-06-07T18:50:55Z jcowan: _death: I believe the maning of seok's question was: what search terms did you use?
2020-06-07T18:53:24Z _death: the real issue according to this paper was the Lisp + C work
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2020-06-07T18:54:53Z _death: jcowan: well, funny.. now that I retrace my steps it wasn't a search engine ;)
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2020-06-07T18:58:19Z _death: jcowan: wikipedia postgres page says "POSTGRES used many of the ideas of Ingres, but not its code" and citation leads to czech wiki page about postgres history.. this one mentions Lisp but in the context of PICASSO.. I noticed it had a link to the paper with one of the coauthors (Rowe) being the Picasso paper author
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2020-06-07T19:00:07Z _death: there was also a czech paragraph about Lisp saying it was a mistake ("Poznámky" 19) with that document as citation
2020-06-07T19:00:38Z _death: I used google translate for that
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2020-06-07T19:01:25Z _death: there are (human) beasts on the web that are search engines
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2020-06-07T19:14:46Z jcowan: Quite so.
2020-06-07T19:15:23Z seok: Hm.. can't figure out how to connect to wss : (
2020-06-07T19:15:28Z seok: I guess I have to do it in node
2020-06-07T19:17:52Z jcowan: I've been trying to figure out how and why the Scheme and CL versions of handler-bind diverged
2020-06-07T19:20:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'd just have preferred if IBM didn't introduce so many noise words into their query language :). aka FETCH FIRST 10 ROWS ONLY could just have been FIRST 10.
2020-06-07T19:20:06Z jcowan: The most important difference is that CL handlers decline by returning, whereas Scheme handlers decline by resignaling; when a Scheme handler returns, the caller receives the value(s) returned unless the signal operation does not permit it
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2020-06-07T19:20:36Z jcowan: Pixel_Outlaw: That goes back to one of the design goals of Cobol: non-programmers should be able to read it even if they can't write it.
2020-06-07T19:20:47Z jcowan: "ADD A TO B GIVING C", for example.
2020-06-07T19:20:52Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yes, having to read COBOL daily you can easily see the influence.
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2020-06-07T19:21:48Z Pixel_Outlaw is a dept manager with a legacy insurance system on AS/400.
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2020-06-07T19:32:54Z pjb: Pixel_Outlaw: The same thing in cucumber!
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2020-06-07T19:35:29Z jcowan: System/3, System/3, See how it runs, See how it runs, Its monitor loses so totally, It runs all its programs in RPG, It's made by our fav'rite monopoly, System/3.
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2020-06-07T20:09:17Z axion: Xach: Question
2020-06-07T20:09:59Z axion: How does specialization-store pass through your tests, if it emits warnings on SBCL during loading, due to redefining 2 defgenerics that were previously defined?
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2020-06-07T20:11:52Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: I was referring to bordeaux-threads
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2020-06-07T21:02:20Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: have you released it?
2020-06-07T21:02:45Z Xach: axion: are they full WARNINGs at compile time?
2020-06-07T21:03:25Z axion: Xach: What is "full"?
2020-06-07T21:03:26Z axion: WARNING:
2020-06-07T21:03:27Z axion:    redefining SPECIALIZATION-STORE.LAMBDA-LISTS:PARAMETER-TYPE in DEFGENERIC
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2020-06-07T21:05:10Z axion: I opened an issue because I see 2 warnings whenever I compile that system, and was curious how it never got caught earlier by Quicklisp
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2020-06-07T21:07:54Z Xach: axion: i mean not a style-warning
2020-06-07T21:08:00Z axion: It is not
2020-06-07T21:08:09Z Xach: axion: how do you load that you see those warnings?
2020-06-07T21:08:33Z Xach: i mean, do you use asdf:load-system or something elsE?
2020-06-07T21:08:38Z axion: #+quicklisp (setf ql:*quickload-verbose* t) (ql:quickload :specialization-store)
2020-06-07T21:09:55Z Xach: axion: i see the warnings too, but it looks like it is not in a position or context where asdf considers it a failure, or there is something funny going on to suppress that asdf behavior.
2020-06-07T21:09:56Z axion: the first part is in my sbclrc, so I may see more warnings than most
2020-06-07T21:09:59Z Xach checks the system file
2020-06-07T21:11:16Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: in 5 minutes
2020-06-07T21:12:02Z Xach: axion: i don't see anything obvious, but the short answer is that it isn't caught because SBCL or ASDF do not catch it. why they don't, I can't see offhand.
2020-06-07T21:12:31Z axion: Ok thanks for checking. I raised an issue with the author
2020-06-07T21:13:09Z axion: It is because they are defining a generic function in one package, and then trying to define a distinct generic function in another package that :USE's the first.
2020-06-07T21:14:25Z axion: Somehow I thought this silly mistake could be detected by the QL deployment process. Oh well
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2020-06-07T21:17:59Z Xach: axion: I don't know the specific rules that trigger a failure in compile-file when there's a warning.
2020-06-07T21:18:17Z Xach: Possibly that warning is not in compile-file.
2020-06-07T21:19:33Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: Bordeaux-threads 0.8.8 is out
2020-06-07T21:19:49Z Xach builds and builds
2020-06-07T21:21:14Z fe[nl]ix: lots of Genera fixes this time
2020-06-07T21:26:29Z bitmapper: too bad portable genera is unobtainable
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2020-06-07T22:02:50Z seok: How would you test if a value is any one of multiple values?
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2020-06-07T22:03:03Z seok: (= x (or a b c d e))
2020-06-07T22:03:06Z seok: want something like this
2020-06-07T22:03:20Z seok: obviously that's not right
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2020-06-07T22:03:37Z seok: I don't want to write (or (= x a) (= x b)....)
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2020-06-07T22:05:47Z Xach: seok: one option is MEMBER
2020-06-07T22:06:41Z seok: xach indeed that works
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2020-06-07T22:06:42Z seok: thanks
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2020-06-08T03:04:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-08T03:22:11Z userself: good evening beach
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2020-06-08T03:52:40Z fe[nl]ix: good morning beach !
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2020-06-08T03:54:23Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: did the bordeaux-threads release break something ?
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2020-06-08T05:45:29Z h4milton_: what do people use Python for ?
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2020-06-08T05:48:46Z h4milton_: I seem to be interested in Bloom Filters than Lamda Calculus, but none of the Python people seem to think that is Pythony enough ...
2020-06-08T05:49:05Z phoe: that is an unusual question to ask on a Lisp channel
2020-06-08T05:49:16Z h4milton_: apparently if you are interested in Lambda Calculus you should use LISP
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2020-06-08T05:49:23Z phoe: wat
2020-06-08T05:50:12Z phoe: both python and lisp are general purpose languages though, you can express both bloom filters and lambda calculus in them
2020-06-08T05:50:52Z h4milton_: I started studying Lisp and got interested in Bloom Filters ,,, but the subject seems too esoteric for the freenode crowd .. is the a LISP or Clojure implementation for Bloom Filters ?
2020-06-08T05:51:06Z h4milton_: I meant Python ...
2020-06-08T05:51:39Z h4milton_: I started with Python ... but I am told my interests are too niche
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2020-06-08T05:51:53Z h4milton_: after spending two days figuring out where to start
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2020-06-08T05:52:19Z h4milton_: I think I need to start with Bloom filters and SipHash
2020-06-08T05:52:22Z phoe: https://github.com/ruricolist/cl-bloom
2020-06-08T05:52:28Z phoe: googling gives me this
2020-06-08T05:52:35Z h4milton_: i'll take a look
2020-06-08T05:52:57Z beach: h4milton_: We haven't written the name "Lisp" in capitals for decades.
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2020-06-08T05:53:12Z h4milton_: gratheus
2020-06-08T05:53:16Z phoe: also https://github.com/brown/sip-hash
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2020-06-08T06:07:26Z h4milton_: i seem to have Bloom Filter implementations up for both languges ... now i need to learn enough Lisp to see the Hash functions
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2020-06-08T06:19:17Z beach: If you don't know much Common Lisp, and you would like to learn, I recommend #clschool.
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2020-06-08T06:44:06Z no-defun-allowed: Are there any libraries for supervising and restarting threads that "crash" for whatever reason?
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2020-06-08T06:46:48Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: erlangen for CCL
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2020-06-08T06:55:57Z no-defun-allowed: Right, thanks.
2020-06-08T06:56:18Z no-defun-allowed: Is it only for Clozure CL?
2020-06-08T06:56:27Z phoe: yes
2020-06-08T06:56:41Z no-defun-allowed: Bummer.
2020-06-08T06:56:58Z shka_: lparallel allows for forwarding conditions to the original thread
2020-06-08T06:57:11Z shka_: this is but one step from actually restarting threads
2020-06-08T06:57:50Z no-defun-allowed: I might hack something up next time I feel like hacking something random.
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2020-06-08T07:01:46Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: make it portable
2020-06-08T07:02:03Z phoe: ^
2020-06-08T07:02:09Z shka_: it shouldn't be complicated to do
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2020-06-08T07:02:12Z no-defun-allowed: shka_: Well, yeah, that's why I want to do that.
2020-06-08T07:02:36Z shka_: you can look at lparallel error forwarding, this is like 85% of challenge
2020-06-08T07:03:56Z no-defun-allowed: I can imagine an error forwarding system, where each thread calls its working function, with a handler that sends errors to a mailbox that the supervisor thread continually receives messages from.
2020-06-08T07:04:13Z shka_: yup
2020-06-08T07:04:28Z shka_: that's a good way to do it
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2020-06-08T07:04:43Z shka_: that's also what i am doing for error forwarding
2020-06-08T07:05:23Z shka_: from there, it is a matter of actually restarting thread which looks like a simpler part
2020-06-08T07:05:42Z shka_: though user should be careful about closures
2020-06-08T07:05:59Z no-defun-allowed: Then when the supervisor gets a message, it updates some information about the working function that signalled, and decides what to do.
2020-06-08T07:06:20Z shka_: either decides, or asks user
2020-06-08T07:06:26Z phoe: it's a matter of passing a message to that thread where the message is (lambda () (invoke-restart restart))
2020-06-08T07:06:42Z phoe: the restart object should be valid since it's still in the dynamic extent of the paused thread
2020-06-08T07:07:02Z phoe: so closing over that restart in another thread, in theory, should work
2020-06-08T07:07:04Z no-defun-allowed: Good idea! That's probably a more idiomatic recovery for Common Lisp.
2020-06-08T07:07:15Z phoe: in theory though - I have no idea if there are any complications of doing that
2020-06-08T07:07:34Z phoe: obviously never try to invoke restarts from other threads, but creating closures that close over them should be good
2020-06-08T07:07:46Z phoe: as long as these closures are then executed in the matching threads
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2020-06-08T07:07:48Z shka_: one potential problem with this system is handling the state changes in the working thread
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2020-06-08T07:08:11Z shka_: although what phoe wrote is slick in concept, it will probably not always work
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2020-06-08T07:08:27Z phoe: shka_: which case are you thinking of?
2020-06-08T07:08:31Z shka_: when there is a foreign code at play
2020-06-08T07:08:47Z phoe: like, somewhere on the stack?
2020-06-08T07:08:49Z no-defun-allowed: If it could be an issue, could you just send restart names between threads? That indirection could be slightly slower, but slightly more portable.
2020-06-08T07:09:00Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: as long as you have no name collisions.
2020-06-08T07:09:09Z phoe: (restart-bind ((foo ...) (foo ...) (foo ...)) ...)
2020-06-08T07:09:17Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
2020-06-08T07:09:23Z shka_: phoe: like your stupid C library just errored and now you have to clean the allocated memory because of course
2020-06-08T07:09:25Z phoe: then that'll work, you are just passing symbols around
2020-06-08T07:09:33Z phoe: shka_: why is that a problem
2020-06-08T07:09:43Z phoe: UNWIND-PROTECT should take care of that
2020-06-08T07:10:02Z shka_: oooh, i see what you mean
2020-06-08T07:10:05Z shka_: yeah, makes sense
2020-06-08T07:10:30Z phoe: if you don't use UNWIND-PROTECT to deallocate DX foreign memory, you've already sort of lost
2020-06-08T07:10:49Z phoe: and if the memory is not DX and should be instead passed around and then destroyed, then there's nothing to clean up at this level
2020-06-08T07:11:31Z phoe: that's the role of UNWIND-PROTECT in the thread where the C code segfaulted or something
2020-06-08T07:11:48Z no-defun-allowed: (Although I don't know if I can properly implement the "screw it, kill everyone and everything, and start over" strategy without making every involved thread unwind the stack correctly.)
2020-06-08T07:11:48Z shka_: agreed
2020-06-08T07:12:06Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: you need to unwind all the stacks properly to do that
2020-06-08T07:12:20Z phoe: otherwise the UNWIND-PROTECT forms may not get executed and cleanup forms will be lost
2020-06-08T07:12:33Z phoe: you can achieve it via a toplevel WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART
2020-06-08T07:12:58Z shka_: phoe: there is one complication i can think of
2020-06-08T07:13:00Z no-defun-allowed: Alright.
2020-06-08T07:13:06Z phoe: like (bt:make-thread (lambda () (with-simple-restart (nuke "Unwind and kill the thread.") ...)))
2020-06-08T07:13:24Z phoe: and then just invoke the NUKE restart in all threads you want to nuke
2020-06-08T07:13:26Z phoe: shka_: what is it?
2020-06-08T07:14:17Z shka_: what about changes made to the lexical env (or perhaps even dynamic variables with altered values)
2020-06-08T07:14:26Z shka_: this won't change after restart
2020-06-08T07:14:30Z no-defun-allowed: Can I be sure I'll interrupt a thread, say with BT:INTERRUPT-THREAD, in its current dynamic context?
2020-06-08T07:14:43Z shka_: obvious solution is not to write this style of code
2020-06-08T07:14:45Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: nope, sb-sys:without-interrupts
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2020-06-08T07:15:07Z phoe: like, eventually, it will get interrupted, unless it loops in without-interrupt
2020-06-08T07:15:15Z phoe: shka_: what do you mean, lexical env?
2020-06-08T07:15:17Z no-defun-allowed: Close enough?
2020-06-08T07:15:30Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: I guess, so, you can't really get any better than that
2020-06-08T07:15:47Z shka_: phoe: (let ((i 0)) (lambda () (incf i)))
2020-06-08T07:15:52Z phoe: yes, that's a closure
2020-06-08T07:16:10Z shka_: ok, now consider something like this
2020-06-08T07:16:30Z phoe: if you want to access I, you need to grab a lambda that accesses it and then pass it to another thread I guess
2020-06-08T07:16:45Z no-defun-allowed: I meant, if I had a thread with that kind of top-level restart, would (interrupt-thread <thread> (lambda () (invoke-restart 'git-out))) be sure to have access to the thread's restarts?
2020-06-08T07:16:55Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: it would
2020-06-08T07:17:11Z phoe: the function is invoked in the dynamic context of the offending thread, so it will access the offending thread's restarts
2020-06-08T07:17:11Z no-defun-allowed: Great! That should work then. Thanks.
2020-06-08T07:17:15Z phoe: and find its git-out restart
2020-06-08T07:17:21Z shka_: (lambda () (do-some-stuff) (defparameter *new-variable* 0) (iterate (while (< *new-variable* 10)) (do-more-stuff))))
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2020-06-08T07:18:30Z phoe: I can understand that code but don't see the issue yet
2020-06-08T07:18:31Z shka_: oh, wait
2020-06-08T07:18:36Z shka_: this would work
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2020-06-08T07:18:44Z shka_: (lambda () (do-some-stuff) (defvar *new-variable* 0) (iterate (while (< *new-variable* 10)) (do-more-stuff))))
2020-06-08T07:18:45Z phoe: also why do you defparameter at non-top-level
2020-06-08T07:18:53Z shka_: phoe: because i can :)
2020-06-08T07:18:57Z phoe: right
2020-06-08T07:19:01Z shka_: now this is properly wrong
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2020-06-08T07:19:17Z phoe: yes, *NEW-VARIABLE* is an unbound lexical variable
2020-06-08T07:19:31Z phoe: you'd need LOCALLY DECLARE SPECIAL for that to work
2020-06-08T07:20:02Z phoe: ..."LOCALLY DECLARE SPECIAL" sounds strangely like cobol and this gave a chill to my heart
2020-06-08T07:20:50Z shka_: whatever, point is that if you just restart by recalling the function
2020-06-08T07:21:18Z shka_: and let's say that do-more-stuff has a proper declaration
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2020-06-08T07:21:21Z shka_: because of course
2020-06-08T07:21:43Z shka_: the *new-variable* won't be reinitialized to 0
2020-06-08T07:21:54Z phoe: that's a non-issue
2020-06-08T07:22:01Z shka_: it is a corner case
2020-06-08T07:22:05Z phoe: you used DEFVAR, not DEFPARAMETER, so obviously you don't want it reinitialized
2020-06-08T07:22:13Z phoe: so, works as intended
2020-06-08T07:22:51Z shka_: you are a little bit to certain :-)
2020-06-08T07:23:17Z phoe: DEFVAR is Lispian for "don't overwrite the old value"
2020-06-08T07:23:30Z phoe: whereas DEFPARAMETER can be translated as "haha setf go brrrr"
2020-06-08T07:23:45Z phoe: so, yes, I am certain :D
2020-06-08T07:23:56Z no-defun-allowed: brrrr
2020-06-08T07:23:57Z shka_: if this would be a general purpose library it is bound to be used in a variety of ways, for instance to load-file
2020-06-08T07:24:18Z shka_: i don't know if this can be accounted for
2020-06-08T07:24:21Z phoe: if this was a general purpose library then I wouldn't let a non-toplevel DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER pass code review
2020-06-08T07:24:32Z phoe: you can /= you should
2020-06-08T07:25:01Z shka_: phoe: sadly, it is not up to you to decide if something passes the review or not
2020-06-08T07:25:07Z phoe: :(
2020-06-08T07:25:18Z shka_: unless you want to review every single line o lisp code ever written
2020-06-08T07:25:54Z phoe: that's a useless generalization though; we're talking about concrete code cases here
2020-06-08T07:25:58Z easye: shka_: phoe is trying to advise you on best practices for contemporary ANSI.  You may do whatever you want, of course.
2020-06-08T07:25:59Z shka_: regardless, i think that this is something that should be put into readme, it can't be handled
2020-06-08T07:26:15Z phoe: if someone comes at me with such a code example then I can tell them "toplevel defvar is a no-no"
2020-06-08T07:26:27Z shka_: phoe: we are talking about library for restarting threads, right?
2020-06-08T07:26:31Z phoe: shka_: yes
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2020-06-08T07:27:01Z phoe: and if someone uses smelly code like nontoplevel global variable definition in *their* code, not inside that library, then that's not really the problem of that library
2020-06-08T07:27:17Z shka_: phoe: or uses library that contains smelly code
2020-06-08T07:27:36Z shka_: which happens
2020-06-08T07:27:58Z phoe: shka_: yes, that's a different problem though; and that's kinda solved by filing merge requests or bug tickets on one's dependencies
2020-06-08T07:28:05Z phoe: or changing the dependencies, whatever
2020-06-08T07:28:23Z phoe: but that's already a way different issue than a nontoplevel DEFVAR
2020-06-08T07:28:30Z phoe: so, I'll stop here
2020-06-08T07:29:51Z shka_: well, you can also (lambda () (load "~/completly-legit-code.lisp")) if it makes you feel any better ;-)
2020-06-08T07:29:52Z phoe: let's assume that the code no-defun-allowed writes does not contain code smells like these, and I guess the dependencies for such a lib are small enough to be audited as a whole
2020-06-08T07:30:03Z phoe shrug
2020-06-08T07:30:18Z phoe: you can't solve the programmer being stupid
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2020-06-08T07:30:30Z phoe: so I guess doing so is out of scope of a thread supervision library
2020-06-08T07:30:36Z shka_: eh, whatever
2020-06-08T07:30:44Z phoe: exactly my point
2020-06-08T07:31:00Z shka_: i think that you need a little bit of reality check but that's not my problem :P
2020-06-08T07:31:14Z phoe: #p"~/completely-legit-code.lisp" can contain (sb-sys:without-interrupts (loop))
2020-06-08T07:31:41Z shka_: phoe: or it may contain some sort of example code
2020-06-08T07:31:48Z no-defun-allowed: I was just thinking I wanted a more robust system for handling errors in my Netfarm server. Threads probably shouldn't signal any errors that aren't handled somewhere, but that's probably someone's famous last words.
2020-06-08T07:31:52Z phoe: "hey, that's a bug in the supervision library, it executed my code without checking if it's bug-free!"
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2020-06-08T07:33:00Z shka_: is it really fair to say that your code has bugs if it was in file that was never meant to be loaded more than once?
2020-06-08T07:33:41Z phoe: depends on the code standards we have
2020-06-08T07:33:47Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: one more thing
2020-06-08T07:34:02Z shka_: i suspect that this solution can be harmful in one more way
2020-06-08T07:34:08Z phoe: I know that pgloader in its current form cannot reload itself
2020-06-08T07:34:17Z shka_: namely if you have thread that simply errored with something unhandled
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2020-06-08T07:34:31Z shka_: you actually DON'T want to restart it
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2020-06-08T07:34:46Z shka_: you want to debug it
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2020-06-08T07:34:56Z no-defun-allowed: True.
2020-06-08T07:35:24Z shka_: anyway, i think that there are two options
2020-06-08T07:35:44Z shka_: a) handle every error precisely how it should be handled
2020-06-08T07:35:54Z phoe: like, (progn (asdf:load-system :pgloader :force t) (asdf:load-system :pgloader :force t)) will signal an error
2020-06-08T07:36:08Z shka_: b) separate processes, erlang style
2020-06-08T07:36:29Z phoe: but that's a bug in pgloader since I assume that ASDF-loadable code should be reloadable
2020-06-08T07:36:37Z phoe: with a stress on "I assume"
2020-06-08T07:36:40Z shka_: this is because although you can restart thread, some resources (like for instance memory) are global
2020-06-08T07:36:41Z no-defun-allowed: Restarting the problematic thing is always the last option, and I assume that at this point, any errors that are signalled are beyond what I can fix.
2020-06-08T07:37:11Z shka_: and i managed to crash sbcl way to many times :/
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2020-06-08T07:37:38Z no-defun-allowed: Then we may want to reset whatever state is used if we reset all the threads.
2020-06-08T07:38:00Z shka_: or just restart whole lisp process
2020-06-08T07:38:14Z shka_: which is not elegant but works
2020-06-08T07:38:42Z shka_: and effectively resets everything :D
2020-06-08T07:39:13Z no-defun-allowed: Provided all the state is managed somehow, it would be somewhat faster to reset the state without restarting the Lisp process.
2020-06-08T07:39:23Z shka_: yes, it would
2020-06-08T07:39:37Z shka_: however, it woudn't be always possible
2020-06-08T07:39:37Z phoe: if you manage to interrupt each thread and get it to fully unwind, then your state is manageable
2020-06-08T07:39:53Z shka_: and this is not the normal situation
2020-06-08T07:40:01Z phoe: however if you call bt:destroy-thread even once or get some thread into uninterruptible sleep/loop and therefore need to destroy it, you have a possible leak
2020-06-08T07:40:10Z phoe: so that's a question of how well behaved your threads are
2020-06-08T07:40:23Z shka_: phoe: you can also have buggy implementation of CL
2020-06-08T07:40:30Z shka_: and you do have a buggy implementation of CL
2020-06-08T07:41:11Z no-defun-allowed: (Also, I need to add logging to decentralise2, but don't really want to fix it to one logging library. More grownup gal stuff to do.)
2020-06-08T07:41:26Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: the way i see it is that you want to have 100% certainty of nearly 100% uptime
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2020-06-08T07:42:52Z ralt: talking about 100% uptime without talking about distributed systems is kinda... missing a big part of the picture
2020-06-08T07:43:09Z shka_: to do so, handle every error, and then use erlang style over watching of the lisp process itself
2020-06-08T07:44:02Z ralt: erlang doesn't have global state, which means it can "restart every thread" whenever, which is what you don't want to do...
2020-06-08T07:44:13Z shka_: unfortunately heap can be exhausted, gengc can fail, libs can be buggy and so one
2020-06-08T07:44:39Z shka_: and not everything can be handled in a single thread
2020-06-08T07:45:42Z shka_: so as a last resort, you need to kill your process anyway
2020-06-08T07:46:13Z shka_: or just swap it out so it can be debugged
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2020-06-08T07:47:03Z shka_: ralt: yeah, ability of erlang to restart everything, anytime is nice, i don't like the price you are supposed to pay for that
2020-06-08T07:47:12Z shka_: :(
2020-06-08T07:47:30Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: makes sense, anyway?
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2020-06-08T07:48:59Z no-defun-allowed: shka_: I don't disagree, but if you have "localised" state well enough, it makes sense that you can just restart part of the program, and have the computer figure out what has to be restarted.
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2020-06-08T07:49:32Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: yes, my point is that world is not perfect
2020-06-08T07:49:40Z shka_: and sbcl is not perfect either
2020-06-08T07:49:45Z ralt: what could be really nice would be some sort of mix between manardb and netfarm...
2020-06-08T07:49:54Z White_Flame: erlang doesn't just blindly restart threads if they crash.  You have to set up supervision trees, tell it thresholds for how fast/often to restart before propagating out consistent failure errors, etc
2020-06-08T07:50:19Z White_Flame: it's a good model to read up on an internalize, even if I've moved away from the language
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2020-06-08T07:50:37Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, but we're talking about something going wrong, which is very unlikely hopefully, and then it being a bug in the implementation, which is unlikely again.
2020-06-08T07:51:02Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: given time, it is bound to happen
2020-06-08T07:51:33Z White_Flame: in telephony, recording an error & continuing, or even ignoring errors (if they don't repeat too often) and continuing could suffice
2020-06-08T07:51:45Z no-defun-allowed: So most of the times something goes wrong, we can do something intelligent, and very rarely would we have to restart entirely.
2020-06-08T07:51:50Z White_Flame: but, a lot of communications stuff is more stateless than general applications
2020-06-08T07:52:06Z White_Flame: "do something intelligent" means writing way more code than throwing away broken state and starting fresh
2020-06-08T07:52:36Z White_Flame: if there are weird edge cases, or resource contentions, or a dropped socket or something, those could be ignorable and restartable
2020-06-08T07:53:07Z White_Flame: but the erlang supervision stuff would catch if something is just flailing in constant restarts without progress
2020-06-08T07:54:11Z White_Flame: which would indicate an actual coding bug or broken environment
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2020-06-08T07:55:26Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, it would.
2020-06-08T07:55:27Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: i guess it is fine, i just wanted to highlight that restarting same thread means that you can no longer debug it
2020-06-08T07:55:46Z shka_: and you can always have a global failure of shared resources
2020-06-08T07:56:10Z no-defun-allowed: I suppose I'm fortunate enough to have a situation in which everything is almost isolated.
2020-06-08T07:56:21Z shka_: no you don't :-)
2020-06-08T07:56:37Z no-defun-allowed: :(
2020-06-08T07:57:19Z shka_: you never got GC invariant lost from sbcl?
2020-06-08T07:57:21Z White_Flame: shka_: the assumption is that the errored thread produced a useful crash report before restarting
2020-06-08T07:57:46Z shka_: White_Flame: this is cool, but ability to attach debugger is superior imho
2020-06-08T07:57:52Z White_Flame: maybe
2020-06-08T07:57:58Z White_Flame: but debug logs tend to be way more useful
2020-06-08T07:58:02Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe once or twice in three years?
2020-06-08T07:58:06Z shka_: wow
2020-06-08T07:58:19Z White_Flame: as the path to achieve the broken state almost always starts well before the error site
2020-06-08T07:58:25Z shka_ is under impression that sbcl hates him
2020-06-08T07:58:32Z White_Flame has never gotten a GC invariant error
2020-06-08T07:58:38Z White_Flame: and I do a ton of stuff at safety 0
2020-06-08T07:58:44Z White_Flame: and had a lot of other ways SBCL crashed ;)
2020-06-08T07:58:59Z phoe: if you get an implementation crash then restart the implementation
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2020-06-08T07:59:09Z shka_: well, it got waaaaaaaaay better in 2020
2020-06-08T07:59:14Z no-defun-allowed: I can't say I count them, but I don't usually witness implementation bugs.
2020-06-08T07:59:19Z White_Flame: and if you blow the stack and just get a warning, restart the implementation
2020-06-08T07:59:20Z phoe: that's actually one of the nicer crashes you can get because all allocated resources are freed when the process dies ;)
2020-06-08T08:00:26Z White_Flame: yeah, erlang gets a lot of that advantage in-process, because each of its "processes" (threads) is treated similarly, each with its own private heap & resources
2020-06-08T08:00:43Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: ok, i don't have anything useful to add at this point
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2020-06-08T08:01:02Z shka_: sorry if i was annoying
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2020-06-08T08:01:22Z phoe: I think you weren't annoying
2020-06-08T08:01:28Z phoe: just heavily pessimistic
2020-06-08T08:01:33Z no-defun-allowed: shka_: No, that was fine. More stuff to think about.
2020-06-08T08:01:44Z shka_: phoe: only paranoid survive!
2020-06-08T08:01:53Z White_Flame: but in any case, your execution environment dying is not really the responsibility of the code within it to defend against
2020-06-08T08:02:04Z White_Flame: as it really can't
2020-06-08T08:02:07Z shka_: also, i lost my job recently, so i am a little bit anxious
2020-06-08T08:02:12Z phoe: shka_: survival isn't all that's required from life
2020-06-08T08:02:15Z phoe: ouch :( sorry to hear that
2020-06-08T08:02:24Z phoe: s/required/wanted/
2020-06-08T08:02:40Z no-defun-allowed: That blows.
2020-06-08T08:02:45Z shka_: i would say that surviving is a good start :)
2020-06-08T08:03:00Z shka_: i will be fine though, don't worry
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2020-06-08T11:11:06Z ebrasca: Is there some method to unload lybraryes in lisp?
2020-06-08T11:11:50Z phoe: ebrasca: DELETE-PACKAGE is the best that you can get, but it is unable to clean everything up
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2020-06-08T11:12:26Z phoe: mostly because Lisp doesn't have actual plug'n'play libraries, Lisp has bits of code that mutate the global image
2020-06-08T11:12:42Z phoe: if all of that code is well behaved and doesn't do anything outside a few packages it defines, then everything is good
2020-06-08T11:13:02Z phoe: but if it does e.g. (DEFUN CL-USER:FROBNICATE ...), then a DELETE-PACKAGE is not enough
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2020-06-08T11:14:16Z phoe: this is very much unlike e.g. Erlang modules, where the isolation of individual bodies of code is very strict
2020-06-08T11:14:35Z ebrasca: phoe: Why it is like this in lisp?
2020-06-08T11:14:46Z phoe: ebrasca: that's the way the language is designed
2020-06-08T11:14:56Z phoe: it gives the programmers both power and responsibilities
2020-06-08T11:15:27Z ebrasca: Why some package need to change someting in other packages?
2020-06-08T11:15:43Z phoe: there's no good answer to that question
2020-06-08T11:16:01Z phoe: mostly since it's almost impossible to generalize
2020-06-08T11:17:24Z ebrasca: How to make the perfect lisp system?
2020-06-08T11:17:59Z phoe: you need to make enough perfect Lisp programs to compose a perfect system out of them
2020-06-08T11:17:59Z ebrasca: I think it is good to load some librery and then when you don't need it unload it.
2020-06-08T11:18:16Z phoe: sure, that's kind of possible, but "unloading" is not a trivial problem
2020-06-08T11:18:37Z phoe: let's say you load a library where each of them pushes :FOO into *FEATURES*
2020-06-08T11:18:43Z phoe: there, delete-package is now not enough
2020-06-08T11:19:14Z phoe: orrrr let's say you load three libraries, each of which does (PUSHNEW :FOO *FEATURES*)
2020-06-08T11:19:16Z ebrasca: In my mind it is just delete some lybrary table and make GC to delete everinting else.
2020-06-08T11:19:45Z phoe: if you decide to modify the feature list during your unloading, when exactly should you delete :FOO from it?
2020-06-08T11:19:53Z phoe: ebrasca: the Lisp reality isn't that simple though
2020-06-08T11:20:12Z phoe: unloading stuff from the Lisp image isn't really well defined anywhere
2020-06-08T11:20:59Z ebrasca: How to maintaing systems like Mezzano?
2020-06-08T11:21:07Z ebrasca: Runing for long time.
2020-06-08T11:22:36Z phoe: ebrasca: does it have some means of swapping stuff to hard drive?
2020-06-08T11:23:02Z phoe: it could use that technique to swap out unused Lisp objects from RAM
2020-06-08T11:23:25Z ebrasca: phoe: I don't undestand what you mean with "swapping" , but it can write to disks.
2020-06-08T11:23:55Z phoe: ebrasca: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paging
2020-06-08T11:25:07Z ebrasca: I don't think it is good answer for all cases.
2020-06-08T11:25:15Z phoe: yes, as for cleaning up stuff and/or upgrades it won't work
2020-06-08T11:25:23Z phoe: since you need to remove old stuff as well
2020-06-08T11:26:02Z phoe: I don't think the Lisp world currently has a good solution to that problem; maybe beach's work on first-class environments would be of use
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2020-06-08T11:27:11Z phoe: since, in theory, you could try and discard the whole environment which has e.g. an old version of bordeaux-threads loaded in, and then switch for an environment that has a new version ready to use
2020-06-08T11:28:12Z phoe: there is still an issue of what happens to the currently alive objects of type bt:thread, and such
2020-06-08T11:28:24Z phoe: but then again, that's a question of upgrading Lisp software in long-running images
2020-06-08T11:28:36Z phoe: I wonder if/how Genera did that...
2020-06-08T11:29:41Z pjb: ebrasca: fundamentally, this is like that in lisp, because lisp was invented to do symbolic AI, and therefore, when the AI learns something, such as for example, that car may mean also some kind of vehicule, then the definition and property list of the symbol CAR must be mutated.
2020-06-08T11:30:25Z edgar-rft: ebrasca: first create a perfect universe, then start to think about things of minor importance :-)
2020-06-08T11:30:31Z pjb: ebrasca: in symbolic AI, it was expected to "compile" the meaning of things into lisp code too, for efficiency.  So function definitions must be mutable at run-time (when the AI learns).
2020-06-08T11:32:55Z pjb: ebrasca: note that human brains work symbolically too.  At least in non feral humans, (and I would assume in a number of non-feral domestic animals too), there's a symbolic layer working over the statistical neural network layer.  And when you learn something, there's some "compilation", some translation of the symbolic structure to the statistical neural network.
2020-06-08T11:34:14Z pjb: For example, when you learn the multiplication tables, and perform painfully a multiplication by the rule, this is purely symbolic processing.  But once you can guess a multi-digit multiplication instantaneously, it's compiled statistical neural network processing.
2020-06-08T11:34:32Z pjb: Or, when you learn the ballistic equations, vs. when you learn to throw a stone.
2020-06-08T11:35:14Z pjb: So as long as we don't perform a fusion of symbolic AI with statistical AI, we won't be able to reach AGI.
2020-06-08T11:35:48Z pjb: This is why AI-interested people should keep learning lisp (and the symbolic AI history coming with it), along with nvidia…
2020-06-08T11:37:41Z Xach: Shinmera: i think an update to bordeaux-threads may have damaged maiden
2020-06-08T11:37:56Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-06-08/failure-report/maiden.html#maiden-twitter
2020-06-08T11:38:12Z Xach: this is the first build since yesterday's bordeaux-threads release.
2020-06-08T11:38:51Z Shinmera: That looks more like a problem in verbose, but even that's weird. I'll have a look.
2020-06-08T11:39:14Z Xach: thank you
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2020-06-08T11:43:05Z Shinmera: Hrm, I guess the behaviour of condition-wait changed to be consistent.
2020-06-08T11:44:15Z Shinmera: Fix pushed.
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2020-06-08T11:49:58Z Xach: Shinmera: hmm, i don't see the commit
2020-06-08T11:50:21Z Shinmera: It's in Verbose
2020-06-08T11:50:32Z Xach: ah, thanks.
2020-06-08T11:50:42Z Shinmera: Maiden just happened to trigger the thread's condition variable.
2020-06-08T11:50:48Z Shinmera: *the Verbose thread's
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2020-06-08T11:57:01Z kpoeck: fe[nl]ix I believe there is a tiny typo in the release description for Bordeaux-Threads.
2020-06-08T11:57:59Z kpoeck: fe[nl]ix  It says it "Clasp: add ACQUIRE-RECURSIVE-LOCK / RELEASE-RECURSIVE-LOCK", but probably is "Clisp ....."
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2020-06-08T11:58:33Z jmercouris: how to iterate through all chars?
2020-06-08T11:58:43Z jmercouris: we talked about this about two years ago, but I cannot remember
2020-06-08T12:00:30Z no-defun-allowed: You could loop from n = 0 to char-code-limit for c = (code-char n) unless (null c)
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2020-06-08T12:00:44Z jmercouris: right that's what I was trying to remember
2020-06-08T12:00:46Z jmercouris: char-code-imit
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2020-06-08T12:00:55Z jmercouris: s/char-code-imit/char-code-limit
2020-06-08T12:00:58Z jmercouris: thanks no-defun-allowed
2020-06-08T12:01:05Z Xach: kpoeck: ??? NO
2020-06-08T12:01:09Z Xach: kpoeck: it is clasp!
2020-06-08T12:01:33Z jmercouris: GASP!
2020-06-08T12:01:37Z jmercouris: Clisp Clasp!
2020-06-08T12:01:41Z phoe: oh no
2020-06-08T12:01:41Z kpoeck: I bet a beer on it (to be delivered the next lisp meeting)
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2020-06-08T12:01:47Z jmercouris: sounds like an 80s music duo
2020-06-08T12:02:32Z kpoeck: Here is proof: https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/commit/474518222ad0149c951824120be6c5a23aaf75bd
2020-06-08T12:02:40Z Xach: ok, I base my assertion on the discussion from a few days ago where fe[nl]ix wrote "i have some updates for clasp in the next release"
2020-06-08T12:02:56Z kpoeck: Yes, the is 1 update for clasp (actually my pr)
2020-06-08T12:03:10Z jmercouris: what a detailed commit message
2020-06-08T12:03:20Z Xach starts sweating, researching beers
2020-06-08T12:03:24Z jmercouris: very well done whoever vibs29 is
2020-06-08T12:03:25Z kpoeck: the update for clasp is "Clasp: fix RECURSIVE-LOCK-P"
2020-06-08T12:03:38Z kpoeck: but the recond one is for clisp
2020-06-08T12:03:58Z kpoeck: But what is 1 letter in a release note in github between friends
2020-06-08T12:04:04Z phoe: when the ultraspec is finished, I will create a function named CLUSP that will return true if CLUS is loaded into the lisp image
2020-06-08T12:04:28Z jmercouris: when the ultraspec is finished, we will be on the moon :-D
2020-06-08T12:04:30Z phoe: this will once and for all solve the vowel issue kpoeck mentioned
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2020-06-08T12:04:34Z phoe: jmercouris: :(
2020-06-08T12:04:34Z jackdaniel: and if it is not it will land you in a debugger with "undefined function"?
2020-06-08T12:04:47Z phoe: jackdaniel: precisely
2020-06-08T12:04:48Z jmercouris: phoe: I help!
2020-06-08T12:04:58Z jmercouris: phoe: what you need?
2020-06-08T12:04:58Z phoe sends jmercouris to the mooooooon
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2020-06-08T12:05:27Z kpoeck: clasp should have been called lisp++ :-)
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2020-06-08T12:05:33Z phoe: kpoeck: oh no
2020-06-08T12:05:45Z phoe: jmercouris: currently, nothing; I need to finish bookworks and then I'll be free to continue clus
2020-06-08T12:06:27Z jmercouris: Ok
2020-06-08T12:06:37Z jackdaniel: kpoeck: I had the same thought at some point of time
2020-06-08T12:06:54Z phoe: or, worse, clisp++
2020-06-08T12:06:55Z jackdaniel: (ec++l also crossed my mind)
2020-06-08T12:07:00Z phoe: or c++lisp
2020-06-08T12:07:04Z phoe: jackdaniel: ha
2020-06-08T12:07:15Z jmercouris: you are all missing the point here
2020-06-08T12:07:20Z jmercouris: it should be (incf c)
2020-06-08T12:07:38Z kpoeck: I like ec++
2020-06-08T12:07:48Z no-defun-allowed: (decf simula)?
2020-06-08T12:07:55Z phoe: it should be "clisp with classes"
2020-06-08T12:08:02Z kpoeck: I asume benach woudn't like sicl++ :-(
2020-06-08T12:08:05Z no-defun-allowed: (decf simula)/ANSI Common Lisp
2020-06-08T12:08:17Z kpoeck: beach woudn't like sicl++
2020-06-08T12:08:38Z jackdaniel: I feel that we've started to drift from the channel topic ,)
2020-06-08T12:08:46Z phoe: just a bit
2020-06-08T12:10:29Z kpoeck: right (the part about the error in the release description of bordeaux-threads was serious though)
2020-06-08T12:18:29Z Xach: kpoeck: sorry i jumped the gun and i will happily get you the beer of your choice as penance
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2020-06-08T12:27:38Z kpoeck: Hope to see you in ECL2021!
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2020-06-08T12:28:45Z phoe: I giggled
2020-06-08T12:29:17Z jackdaniel: :)
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2020-06-08T12:32:55Z ebrasca: What is "ECL" ?
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2020-06-08T12:34:18Z kpoeck: ECL2021 might have the next keynote from Jackdaniel, but I meant ELS2021
2020-06-08T12:34:21Z bendersteed: Maybe ELS?
2020-06-08T12:35:13Z kpoeck: ECL is here: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/
2020-06-08T12:35:52Z kpoeck: The common lisp compiler developed by jackdaniel and Marius Gerbershagen
2020-06-08T12:36:02Z phoe: and a lot of people in the past
2020-06-08T12:36:30Z kpoeck: ... currently developed ....
2020-06-08T12:36:37Z phoe: oh, yes
2020-06-08T12:37:38Z jackdaniel: currently stewarded, we have other contributors! without looking to far I'll point my finger at kpoeck ,)
2020-06-08T12:38:29Z kpoeck: I like "stewarded", so will use that in the future
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2020-06-08T12:44:00Z fe[nl]ix: kpoeck: thanks, I fixed that typo
2020-06-08T12:44:11Z kpoeck: On page 5 of https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/files/misc/new-doc.pdf one can see the ancestry of ecl
2020-06-08T12:44:58Z kpoeck: fe[nl]ix great (and our life with clasp will be much easier with the new release so thanks for that)
2020-06-08T12:45:17Z jackdaniel: that reminds me, that I need to update it (and first contact prof Attardi), apparently ECoLisp is an open sourced version on Delphi
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2020-06-08T13:47:42Z ldb: good evening
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2020-06-08T13:59:57Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: is there an wasy way to download all systems that depend on Bordeaux-threads ?
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2020-06-08T14:26:01Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: only including direct dependencies: (loop for system in (ql-dist:provided-systems T) when (find "bordeaux-threads" (ql-dist:required-systems system) :test #'string=) collect system)
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2020-06-08T14:26:46Z Shinmera: you should be able to just mapc ql-dist:ensure-installed that list.
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2020-06-08T14:33:58Z fe[nl]ix: (mapc #'(lambda (s) (ql-dist:ensure-installed (ql-dist:find-system s))) (ql:who-depends-on "bordeaux-threads"))
2020-06-08T14:35:39Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: thanks
2020-06-08T14:36:40Z fe[nl]ix: I had a vague plan of removing recursive locks
2020-06-08T14:36:52Z fe[nl]ix: from Bordeaux-threads
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2020-06-08T14:38:03Z froggey: fe[nl]ix: you pinged me a little while ago, I assume about the mezzano PR for BT, any problems?
2020-06-08T14:38:38Z fe[nl]ix: yes, but it's solved
2020-06-08T14:38:47Z froggey: ok, good
2020-06-08T14:40:10Z fe[nl]ix: the amount of packages using recursive locks is surprising
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2020-06-08T14:46:01Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: is this because of https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/pull/38 ?
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2020-06-08T14:50:28Z fe[nl]ix: yes, but more essentially because recursive locks are almost never necessary except for porting legacy single-threaded code to multi-threaded environments
2020-06-08T14:50:58Z fe[nl]ix: also because a number of implementations don't have acquire/release for recursive locks
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2020-06-08T14:51:40Z jackdaniel: another reason could be that using recursive locks with condition variables is unreliable at least on some implementations
2020-06-08T14:52:24Z fe[nl]ix: that too
2020-06-08T14:52:26Z phoe: yes, I can understand that
2020-06-08T14:53:00Z Bike: slime still uses recursive locks in its gray streams... i feel like that could be rewritten but i dunno...
2020-06-08T14:54:46Z phoe: up to the point of implementing them itself I guess
2020-06-08T14:54:48Z phoe: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/ebf170aed587e98d9af75151df1d497e185f5ae0/swank/mezzano.lisp#L547
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2020-06-08T14:57:55Z garbochock: Hi lispfolk, I'm new to the language and currently reading (mostly doing the exercises) of Common LISPcraft by Robert Wilensky. Currently reading about property lists and would like advice on my implementation of intersection. The book states that by 'marking' symbols you only have to go through each list once - however I can't seem to figure out how to go through each list only once and still remove all properties! Currently my
2020-06-08T14:57:55Z garbochock: function leaves the symbols marked after execution.
2020-06-08T14:58:03Z garbochock: https://pastebin.com/dVDJNTFf
2020-06-08T14:59:26Z phoe: garbochock: could you give me an example? (intersection-mark '(a b c f g) '(c d e u v)) ;=> (C)
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2020-06-08T15:01:15Z Bike: i ran into this because i didn't check the docstring on make-lock that says it has to be recursive, and thought "i know, clasp doesn't have to use recursive locks here", and horrible problems happened.
2020-06-08T15:02:20Z beach: garbochock: That kind of trick is not recommended anyway.  It messes with the global environment.
2020-06-08T15:03:03Z garbochock: phoe: Yes, that works fine, the problem is if you execute (intersection-mark '(a b c) '(d e f)) followed by (intersection-mark '(d e f) '(a b c)) => (C B A)
2020-06-08T15:03:40Z beach: garbochock: We used to do that kind of stuff in the old days.  Not anymore.
2020-06-08T15:03:55Z garbochock: I see, the book is most likely outdated by current standards
2020-06-08T15:04:19Z beach: Yeah.  I forget the year of publication, but it was a while ago.
2020-06-08T15:04:43Z beach: Currently, most people here would recommend PCL.
2020-06-08T15:04:45Z jackdaniel: minion: tell garbochock about pcl
2020-06-08T15:04:46Z minion: garbochock: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-06-08T15:04:48Z jackdaniel: minion: tell garbochock about paip
2020-06-08T15:04:48Z minion: garbochock: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2020-06-08T15:04:56Z jackdaniel: these two books are excellent references
2020-06-08T15:05:20Z phoe: garbochock: this is because your SETF GET persists between calls to that function. It doesn't clean up after itself.
2020-06-08T15:05:51Z phoe: also, what beach and jackdaniel said, symbol property lists are kind of a blast from the past
2020-06-08T15:06:08Z beach: Ah, 1984.  Way before the ANSI standard was published.
2020-06-08T15:06:09Z phoe: still found in software that is 20+ years old, but not really done nowadays
2020-06-08T15:06:18Z phoe: this sounds more like CLtL1
2020-06-08T15:06:25Z beach: Definitely.
2020-06-08T15:08:31Z garbochock: Thanks for the advice! I mostly went into LISPcraft due to the many exercises at the end of each chapter. I will look into reading PCL and paip! Did head into PCL a while ago but find that I learn best through solving problems by myself!
2020-06-08T15:09:02Z beach: garbochock: The ANSI standard of 1994 added the Common Lisp object system, which changes the way many programs are written.
2020-06-08T15:09:20Z garbochock: Now I have a better foundation in programming in general and bit more experience with the lisp syntax though!
2020-06-08T15:09:27Z beach: garbochock: Though, for simple problems, the solutions are the same of course.
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2020-06-08T15:10:17Z phoe: oh and one more thing
2020-06-08T15:10:21Z phoe: minion: tell garbochock about gentle
2020-06-08T15:10:21Z minion: garbochock: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2020-06-08T15:10:47Z beach: I don't recommend "gentle" for people who already know some programming.
2020-06-08T15:10:51Z phoe: you could try this one if you feel like the previous two are going a bit too fast
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2020-06-08T15:11:00Z phoe: oh right, I was about to mention what beach said
2020-06-08T15:11:18Z phoe: if you already got rolling with implementing your own INTERSECTION then I guess gentle might be too slow
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2020-06-08T15:17:15Z kinope: Morning all
2020-06-08T15:17:33Z beach: Hello kinope.
2020-06-08T15:17:59Z kinope: Hi beach
2020-06-08T15:18:23Z phoe: heyyy
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2020-06-08T15:28:03Z kinope: I have a question about locks. I've been working on a thread-safe queue implementation, the execution time to enqueue 10 million objects is down to 40 seconds from 250 seconds but, I've noticed that if I remove all locking associated functions the execution time drops to 9 seconds. Now, I know I need the locks (using bordeaux-threads currently) but I'm wondering If locks come in lighter weight varieties? The implementation
2020-06-08T15:28:03Z kinope: uses condition variables to wait and notify on/for underflow and overflow conditions. Is a spinlock something I should look into since I think they dont yield, I don't think the worker threads need to yeild back to the OS.
2020-06-08T15:28:09Z kinope: hey phoe
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2020-06-08T15:29:37Z beach: kinope: Are you sure there aren't any lock-free queue techniques?
2020-06-08T15:29:55Z beach: Google seems to think so.
2020-06-08T15:30:12Z beach: ... think that there are such implementations, I mean.
2020-06-08T15:30:22Z kinope: Hmm not sure, I will investigate!
2020-06-08T15:31:16Z _death: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Queue
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2020-06-08T15:32:11Z jackdaniel: kinope: you may want to investigate atomic operations, they are often required for lockless techniques
2020-06-08T15:32:18Z jackdaniel: Shinmera wrote a portability layer for these
2020-06-08T15:32:29Z jackdaniel: (I don't remember its name though)
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2020-06-08T15:32:50Z Shinmera: Colleen: look up atomics
2020-06-08T15:32:50Z Colleen: About atomics https://shinmera.github.io/atomics/#About Atomics
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2020-06-08T15:33:40Z jackdaniel: kinope: you may also check out a recently closed PR to bordeaux-threads which was proposing a thread-safe queue based on condition variables to compare implementations
2020-06-08T15:34:07Z jackdaniel sniffles
2020-06-08T15:36:27Z jackdaniel: kinope: in this pr one of reviewers mentions two queues, one in lparallel and one named genserve if I remember correctly
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2020-06-08T15:36:43Z kinope: Thanks for the info everyone, there is always something novel to chew on!
2020-06-08T15:37:07Z kinope: Great, thanks jackdaniel
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2020-06-08T17:15:13Z pve: Hi, has it always been customary to start a file with an (in-package ...) expression?
2020-06-08T17:15:41Z phoe: I guess that genera modelines automatically took care of that since they had a "Package: ..." field
2020-06-08T17:16:07Z pve: Like, was there a time when a loader would bind *package* and load some files "into" that package?
2020-06-08T17:16:33Z phoe: I guess you can do anything with LOAD, including (let ((*package ...)) (load ...))
2020-06-08T17:17:13Z pjb: pve: not always.
2020-06-08T17:17:18Z pve: Yep, but has it ever been common practice? Before asdf, defsystem etc
2020-06-08T17:17:20Z phoe: some Lisp software still loads itself this way, including ANSI-TEST AFAIR
2020-06-08T17:17:34Z pjb: pve: notably, you can have files designed to be loaded in different packages.
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2020-06-08T17:17:52Z pjb: pve: for example, I have a html.lisp file, that can be loaded in a html generator, or in a html parser.
2020-06-08T17:18:10Z pjb: It contains the definition of the html grammar, as defelement and defentity forms.
2020-06-08T17:18:54Z pve: right
2020-06-08T17:19:14Z _death: with package-inferred-systems it's customary to begin with a defpackage form.. in one old codebase I'm reviving some files are useful to load in whatever is the current package, given that it has the right symbols
2020-06-08T17:20:17Z pjb: pve: the question to ask is what is the development environment model you use.  If you use the classic unix file based development environment, then you may adopt asdf (quicklisp), and in that case a degree of "staticity" in the source files is a good idea; you will want the in-package forms.
2020-06-08T17:20:29Z pjb: Other development environment models would have other requirements.
2020-06-08T17:20:37Z pve: I'm building a loader (or trying to, anyway) for my symbolic-smalltalk "language", and now I'm considering the pros and cons of having a file "know" its package
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2020-06-08T17:28:13Z pve: but thank you, for the input.. I'll ponder this some more
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2020-06-08T17:31:05Z phoe: how are these files of yours structured?
2020-06-08T17:31:13Z phoe: or, how do Lisp packages come into play when you play with smalltalk?
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2020-06-08T17:35:04Z pve: phoe: when a file is loaded it results in one or more classes defined plus their methods
2020-06-08T17:35:13Z pve: at least thats the plan for now
2020-06-08T17:35:15Z phoe: pve: what are the names of these classes?
2020-06-08T17:35:26Z phoe: is there any kind of class/method namespacing in Smalltalk?
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2020-06-08T17:36:15Z pve: it's running inside lisp so the classes are just lisp standard-classes
2020-06-08T17:36:26Z pve: and their names are symbols
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2020-06-08T17:37:13Z phoe: I mean, if all symbols share a global namespace
2020-06-08T17:37:23Z phoe: then all of your Smalltalk would fit in a single Lisp package
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2020-06-08T17:39:47Z pve: ah, so when I start a new project I would also define a lisp package, just like when making a CL lib
2020-06-08T17:41:19Z phoe: you mean a Smalltalk project?
2020-06-08T17:41:24Z pve: the methods all go into a shared method package, however (at least by default, it's configurable)
2020-06-08T17:41:29Z pve: yes
2020-06-08T17:41:37Z phoe: oh, okay
2020-06-08T17:41:49Z phoe: I know nothing about namespacing in Smalltalk, but that would work, I guess
2020-06-08T17:42:05Z pjb: There's no namespace in Smalltalk. Only classes.
2020-06-08T17:42:58Z pve: it's not really even necessary to use a loader, as it's possible to mix the smalltalk code into the lisp code with a [ ... ] reader macro
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2020-06-08T17:43:12Z pve: but I'd like to make one, for completeness
2020-06-08T17:45:50Z pve: it's probably technically wrong to refer to it as "Smalltalk", since it's currently just about the syntax and some core functionality.. no smalltalk standard lib or anything
2020-06-08T17:46:23Z pve: but it does cover large parts of CL...
2020-06-08T17:46:56Z phoe: lisptalk
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2020-06-08T17:47:39Z pve: so you can do for instance [ Hash-table eq :at 'foo :put 'hello ]
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2020-06-08T17:58:14Z jcowan: pve: if you haven't seen it, https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/uploads/172/standard_v1_9-indexed.pdf is the (draft, technically) ANSI Smalltalk standard
2020-06-08T17:59:22Z pve: jcowan: thanks, I have seen it :)
2020-06-08T18:00:08Z jcowan: Okay.  It wasn't what I expected when I first saw it:  it defines a DAG of protocols rather than a tree of classes.
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2020-06-08T18:00:41Z pve: implementing all of that would have been so daunting, I decided to start with the syntax and class definitions and make a thin layer on top of CL, which I'm more familiar with
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2020-06-08T18:02:31Z jcowan: What, only 300 pages!  CL has 1300 or whatever.
2020-06-08T18:02:31Z pve: class definitions meaning the methods necessary to support defining new classes.. i.e. subclass: etc
2020-06-08T18:02:45Z jcowan nods
2020-06-08T18:03:01Z pve: but fortunately CLOS gives good tools for all of this
2020-06-08T18:03:07Z jcowan: Yes.
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2020-06-08T18:03:52Z jcowan: There are only 6 required classes and 25 required classes-or-classlike-things
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2020-06-08T18:05:09Z jcowan: there are 93 protocols, but many are very small
2020-06-08T18:05:29Z jcowan: and yes, CLOS is The Right Thing, since it supports multiple inheritance even though ST does not.
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2020-06-08T18:34:05Z seok: Is there function to parse string -> float?
2020-06-08T18:34:40Z pjb: (read-from-string "3.1415") #| --> 3.1415 ; 6 |#
2020-06-08T18:35:06Z seok: Thank you
2020-06-08T18:35:07Z pjb: but beware: (type-of(read-from-string "31415")) #| --> (integer 0 1152921504606846975) |#
2020-06-08T18:35:15Z pjb: and: (type-of(read-from-string "hello")) #| --> symbol |#
2020-06-08T18:35:25Z pjb: so you better check the result.
2020-06-08T18:36:09Z pjb: but note that if you get an integer instead of a float, it may not break your module, as long as you DO NOT fucking declare the types!
2020-06-08T18:36:37Z seok: how do I ensure double float?
2020-06-08T18:36:41Z pjb: (let ((x (read-from-string "123"))) (declare (type float x)) (+ x 3.0)) -> bug
2020-06-08T18:36:48Z pjb: (coerce foo 'double-float)
2020-06-08T18:37:11Z pjb: for floats, you can also bind *read-default-float-format* to double-float.
2020-06-08T18:38:11Z seok: I am using this (coerce (read-from-string string) 'double-float)
2020-06-08T18:38:20Z seok: So I guess it's fine
2020-06-08T18:38:53Z seok: lisp has so many predefined symbols. how do you know all this?
2020-06-08T18:38:54Z seok: haha
2020-06-08T18:38:58Z kpoeck: bind *read-default-float-format*
2020-06-08T18:39:06Z pjb: there are only 973 of them.
2020-06-08T18:39:53Z seok: oh that's not as much as I expected
2020-06-08T18:40:24Z seok: there are 978!
2020-06-08T18:40:26Z seok: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Symbol.htm
2020-06-08T18:40:45Z kpoeck: 978 external symbols
2020-06-08T18:41:07Z pjb: (make-package "SCRATCH" :use '())   (mapcar (lambda (string) (ignore-errors (coerce (let ((*read-default-float-format* 'double-float) (*read-eval* nil) (*package* (find-package "SCRATCH"))) (read-from-string string)) 'double-float))) '("3.13" "3.15l0" "315" "foo bar baz")) #| --> (3.13D0 3.15D0 315.0D0 nil) |#
2020-06-08T18:41:21Z seok: What language are the CL implementations written in?
2020-06-08T18:41:28Z pjb: all kinds of languages.
2020-06-08T18:41:33Z pjb: but mostly, in CL.
2020-06-08T18:42:21Z pjb: You may also want to bind *read-base*
2020-06-08T18:42:24Z seok: if CL implementation is written in CL, which implementation of CL is that implementation running??
2020-06-08T18:42:28Z seok: I don't get it
2020-06-08T18:42:42Z pjb:  (mapcar (lambda (string) (ignore-errors (coerce (let ((*read-base* 10.) (*read-default-float-format* 'double-float) (*read-eval* nil) (*package* (find-package "SCRATCH"))) (read-from-string string)) 'double-float))) '("3.13" "3.15l0" "315" "foo bar baz")) #| --> (3.13D0 3.15D0 315.0D0 nil) |#
2020-06-08T18:43:05Z pjb: seok: it's basic language implementation bootstrapping.
2020-06-08T18:43:20Z pjb: seok: the question is what language implementations are available to you?
2020-06-08T18:43:33Z pjb: seok: if you have a CL implementation available, then you can implement your CL in CL.
2020-06-08T18:44:18Z pjb: seok: one big advantage of implementing a language X in X, is that it ensures that your implementation is (relatively) bug-free, since it has at least to compile itself to a program that you can easily check, by using it to compile itself again, and compare the results.
2020-06-08T18:44:21Z seok: https://wiki.c2.com/?LispImplementationsWrittenInLisp
2020-06-08T18:44:34Z seok: I see
2020-06-08T18:44:45Z Bike: you use CL to build an independent program
2020-06-08T18:44:51Z Bike: much like you can build gcc with itself and such
2020-06-08T18:45:38Z pjb: seok:  in the prehistory of computing, there was no lisp compiler.  So you had to write the first lisp in a different programming language.  There weren't a lot of them at the time: only assembler and fortran!
2020-06-08T18:45:44Z pjb: So they choose to use assembler.
2020-06-08T18:46:06Z pjb: They only implemented an interpreter in assembler.  Then they implemented the lisp compiler in lisp, and used the interpreter to compile the compiler.
2020-06-08T18:46:09Z seok: Right, if you compile it, it becomes binary anyway I guess
2020-06-08T18:46:16Z pjb: exactly.
2020-06-08T18:46:40Z seok: There is no difference in compiled program written in C or lisp or anything
2020-06-08T18:46:46Z seok: Now I see
2020-06-08T18:46:49Z pjb: But nowadays, you can use any high level programming language.  Since CL is a good high level programming language, it's a good choice to use it.
2020-06-08T18:47:02Z pjb: Another good choice could be haskell.
2020-06-08T18:47:17Z pjb: Or any programming language that can be easily proven.
2020-06-08T18:47:17Z seok: haskell is still a good choice?
2020-06-08T18:47:27Z pjb: haskell is always a good choice :-)
2020-06-08T18:47:40Z seok: for writing CL you mean right?
2020-06-08T18:48:17Z pjb: Well, I prefer to use CL anyways.  But if you like haskell, haskell is not a bad choice.
2020-06-08T18:48:26Z seok: I've never used haskell
2020-06-08T18:48:38Z pjb: So CL is a good choice.
2020-06-08T18:49:05Z seok: How long would you take to write CL implementation in CL?
2020-06-08T18:49:08Z seok: : D
2020-06-08T18:49:44Z pjb: seok: anything between, say, 1 month to 10 years or more.
2020-06-08T18:50:03Z seok: 1 month to build it, 9 years to optimize?
2020-06-08T18:50:59Z pjb: seok: if you're a good CL programmer, already knowing CL, and in good health, you could write a CL interpreter in a week, and take the 3 following weeks to implement the rest of the CL library (you would take all the shortcuts allowed by the CL specifications, and perhaps use a few libraries).
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2020-06-08T18:51:18Z pjb: seok: but if you want to use top-notch compiler tech, yes, it will take more time.
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2020-06-08T18:51:43Z pjb: drmeister started from ecl sources and made clasp, a CL implementation working on C++ and with C++, in about six months IIRC.
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2020-06-08T18:52:06Z seok: I'm reading on haskell and found out that it's not as old as I imagined
2020-06-08T18:52:11Z pjb: beach has been working from scratch on sicl for six year I believe, and should be competed in 4.
2020-06-08T18:52:32Z kpoeck: I am a bit puzzled that the wike.c2.com claims that "OpenMCL for example can be bootstrapped with just a C compiler"
2020-06-08T18:53:08Z pjb: kpoeck: yeah, I don't think it was ever possible.
2020-06-08T18:53:10Z kpoeck: does not seem correct
2020-06-08T18:53:30Z pjb: I've seen old sources of MCL, for Macintosh 680x0, and there was CL code to be compiled with the lisp image.
2020-06-08T18:53:57Z kpoeck: They must have confused that with ecl or clisp
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2020-06-08T18:54:13Z pjb: ecl and clisp also have a sizeable part of CL code.
2020-06-08T18:54:39Z pjb: But ecl and clisp are indeed bootstrappable on a system with only a C compiler, and no lisp image.
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2020-06-08T18:55:11Z pjb: ccl needs a ccl lisp image (like its ancestors openmcl, rmcl and mcl, AFAIK).
2020-06-08T18:55:15Z seok: wow beach is doing a lot of huge projects
2020-06-08T18:55:19Z seok: is he getting paid for this?
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2020-06-08T18:55:32Z pjb: he's a university professor.
2020-06-08T18:55:43Z seok: he teaches CL?
2020-06-08T18:55:48Z pjb: yes.
2020-06-08T18:55:51Z seok: nice
2020-06-08T18:56:01Z seok: what about you pjb?
2020-06-08T18:56:07Z pjb: freelance programmer.
2020-06-08T18:56:21Z seok: Do you get jobs in lisp?
2020-06-08T18:56:27Z pjb: sometimes.
2020-06-08T18:56:52Z seok: What kind of work are companies after when asking for lisp?
2020-06-08T18:56:54Z seok: CAD?
2020-06-08T18:57:31Z pjb: check http://franz.com/success or https://lispjobs.wordpress.com
2020-06-08T18:57:31Z p_l: seok: I see more cases where the company seeks someone to solve a problem and doesn't care about the language
2020-06-08T18:57:38Z seok: Ah
2020-06-08T18:57:52Z seok: I know of lispjobs
2020-06-08T18:57:58Z seok: but they don't have posting since 2018
2020-06-08T18:58:11Z p_l: for example, the problem statement might be "Software to do X" then you can implement it in language of chocie
2020-06-08T18:58:15Z p_l: *choice
2020-06-08T18:58:19Z pjb: it's indeed easier to just propose solutions to customers without mentionning how you implement it.
2020-06-08T18:58:49Z pjb: do you tell your surgeon what knife or what thread to use?
2020-06-08T18:58:59Z seok: You are right
2020-06-08T19:00:10Z pjb: for example, dimitri implemented a posrgres dump/restore tool in CL.
2020-06-08T19:00:32Z pjb: pgloader.
2020-06-08T19:00:33Z seok: postgres still has CL components atm?
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2020-06-08T19:00:39Z pjb: https://github.com/dimitri
2020-06-08T19:00:47Z seok: yeah I've just found it
2020-06-08T19:00:53Z pjb: seok: currently, CL can be used to write stored procedure in postgres.
2020-06-08T19:01:13Z seok: Wait, how do I do that?
2020-06-08T19:01:22Z seok: is that like a trigger?
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2020-06-08T19:04:19Z pjb: well potentially.  You can hook any language for stored procedures. They can indeed called from triggers.
2020-06-08T19:04:24Z pjb: +be
2020-06-08T19:05:13Z pjb: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.4/xplang.html PostgreSQL allows user-defined functions to be written in other languages besides SQL and C.
2020-06-08T19:06:05Z pjb: as of 9.4, 4 languages are available: pgSQL, Tcl, Perl and Python. You could add CL.
2020-06-08T19:06:19Z pjb: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.4/plhandler.html
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2020-06-08T19:06:59Z pjb: This could probably be done very easily with ecl (libecl).
2020-06-08T19:07:04Z seok: Hm
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2020-06-08T19:12:10Z flip214: pjb: 9.4 is old, 12 is current
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2020-06-08T19:16:15Z pjb: yes, it might be even easier nowadays.
2020-06-08T19:16:32Z pjb: google doesn't know to return current documentation…
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2020-06-08T19:22:24Z p_l: I have to say the speed of releases in Postgres had been definitely high recently
2020-06-08T19:25:48Z flip214: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/13/server-programming.html
2020-06-08T19:28:30Z seok: which equal do I use to check equality of hash table object?
2020-06-08T19:28:37Z seok: they are same object in memory
2020-06-08T19:29:27Z seok: pjb google does fall off with searches they cannot get a lot of data on..
2020-06-08T19:30:00Z seok: nobody searches for CL stored procedures on postgres.. pretty much
2020-06-08T19:30:58Z seok: dw, eq works
2020-06-08T19:31:02Z kpoeck: eq
2020-06-08T19:31:05Z seok: yeah
2020-06-08T19:31:24Z seok: I should know to test before asking
2020-06-08T19:32:08Z kpoeck: https://franz.com/support/documentation/current/ansicl/dictentr/eq.htm
2020-06-08T19:33:37Z kpoeck: or http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm#eq
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2020-06-08T19:43:07Z seok: I've written this path mapping function https://pastebin.com/wi51Ej37
2020-06-08T19:43:30Z seok: It finds and pushes path of length 3
2020-06-08T19:43:47Z seok: How can I write a function/macro for a general length?
2020-06-08T19:47:48Z dlowe: seok: you could try a recursive solution
2020-06-08T19:48:04Z seok: I felt there was one, but not getting an idea
2020-06-08T19:48:19Z dlowe: your function would take a hash table and return a list of matches
2020-06-08T19:48:38Z dlowe: it would take a hash table and a path prefix
2020-06-08T19:49:07Z dlowe: base case is that you have a non-hashtable as a value
2020-06-08T19:49:30Z seok: the hash table is a map of paths
2020-06-08T19:49:35Z seok: so the value is a hash table
2020-06-08T19:50:04Z dlowe: maybe I didn't read the code closely enough
2020-06-08T19:51:23Z seok: https://pastebin.com/TeU16fAA
2020-06-08T19:51:29Z seok: this is the code to make the hashtable
2020-06-08T19:51:53Z seok: https://pastebin.com/tHKB32aP
2020-06-08T19:51:56Z seok: here is the whole code
2020-06-08T19:54:09Z dlowe: if this is the only thing that makes the hashtable, it seems to me that you're going to be setting it to a whole bunch of NIL values
2020-06-08T19:54:28Z dlowe: because (gethash basec *cryptopath*) is going to start out returning NIL
2020-06-08T19:54:39Z dlowe: when *cryptopath* is an empty table
2020-06-08T19:54:39Z seok: *cryptos* is a list of strings
2020-06-08T19:55:14Z seok: *pairs* holds all the paths
2020-06-08T19:55:41Z dlowe: btw, that's not how you use push
2020-06-08T19:55:52Z seok: How do I push?
2020-06-08T19:55:59Z dlowe: don't setf the result of push, push *is* the mutating form
2020-06-08T19:56:51Z seok: I know push is a destryctive function, but Paul Graham https://sep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/paulgraham/onlisp.pdf?t=1564708198& says it is bad
2020-06-08T19:57:15Z dlowe: it's exactly (setf list (cons element list)) without the duplication
2020-06-08T19:57:35Z dlowe: clhs push
2020-06-08T19:57:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_push.htm
2020-06-08T19:57:37Z seok: Right,
2020-06-08T19:57:50Z dlowe: it's also not a function
2020-06-08T19:57:57Z seok: ah is it a macro?
2020-06-08T19:58:01Z phoe: yes
2020-06-08T19:58:07Z phoe: it cannot be a function
2020-06-08T19:58:12Z seok: Then I guess I am using it wrong
2020-06-08T19:58:16Z dlowe: pg is very opinionated and you'll find that very few people here share his opinions
2020-06-08T19:58:39Z dlowe: despite his unfortunate and accidental position as spokesperson for lisp
2020-06-08T19:58:42Z phoe: seok: which page of On Lisp?
2020-06-08T19:58:47Z seok: He mentions it for functions, but not macros
2020-06-08T19:58:53Z phoe: also don't get me started on pg and his opinionatedness :D
2020-06-08T19:58:59Z seok: it makes sense that it is ok for macros
2020-06-08T19:59:22Z seok: I've read that part yesterday, let me look it up
2020-06-08T20:00:09Z seok: pg 29
2020-06-08T20:00:13Z seok: with bad-reverse example
2020-06-08T20:01:43Z phoe: oh, yes
2020-06-08T20:01:53Z phoe: not only his code is broken, it does not conform
2020-06-08T20:01:58Z phoe: mutating literal data is undefined behavior
2020-06-08T20:02:02Z phoe: congrats, pg, congrats
2020-06-08T20:02:31Z seok: he messed up?
2020-06-08T20:02:34Z phoe: yes!
2020-06-08T20:02:48Z phoe: he purposefully writes a destructive function, purposefully calls it on non-fresh data, and then goes "look this is bad style lol"
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2020-06-08T20:03:01Z phoe: hey, you asked for it, man; garbage in, garbage out
2020-06-08T20:03:12Z seok: isn't that his intention?
2020-06-08T20:03:15Z seok: how did he mess up
2020-06-08T20:03:42Z phoe: mutating '(1 2 3) is undefined behavior, since it is a literal
2020-06-08T20:04:08Z phoe: using toplevel SETQ is another undefined behavior, though all implementations I know do the "Right Thing" in this case and allow it
2020-06-08T20:04:47Z phoe: anyway, bad-reverse is a very inefficient implementation of nreverse, not reverse
2020-06-08T20:05:07Z phoe: so the third way he screwed up is in the naming - he should have named it bad-nreverse
2020-06-08T20:05:15Z phoe: to show that this function destroys stuff in its wake
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2020-06-08T20:05:56Z phoe: also, he talks about complexity; nreverse is linear in time, just like reverse
2020-06-08T20:06:11Z phoe: but pg conveniently doesn't mention that nreverse has constant space complexity while reverse has linear space complexity
2020-06-08T20:06:15Z aeth: Literal lists/vectors/strings are basically immutable sequences without any kind of static or dynamic checking to prove that they're kept immutable. So never mutate them.
2020-06-08T20:06:24Z phoe: another place where he conveniently screws up to prove his point
2020-06-08T20:06:41Z phoe: soooo, I sadly call BS on this part of On Lisp
2020-06-08T20:06:50Z phoe: that's like, four in a row I could find.
2020-06-08T20:07:10Z axion: Hopefully people aren't as critical on your book :)
2020-06-08T20:08:16Z phoe: hope they are
2020-06-08T20:08:27Z phoe: I want to fix it all in the next revision ;_;
2020-06-08T20:09:17Z seok: Heh, nobody likes PG here?
2020-06-08T20:09:24Z seok: Is On Lisp bad to read?
2020-06-08T20:09:34Z phoe: On Lisp as a whole is a valuable book
2020-06-08T20:09:35Z seok: it is on awesome-cl recommendation
2020-06-08T20:09:41Z phoe: especially if you want to write macros
2020-06-08T20:09:51Z phoe: and, as a Lisp programmer, you will want to write macros at some point
2020-06-08T20:09:57Z seok: Yes,
2020-06-08T20:10:13Z axion would recommend reading PCL first, as it touches on a lot of problems you've been asking and is generally accepted as the must first read
2020-06-08T20:10:36Z seok: is that principles of common lisp?
2020-06-08T20:10:40Z phoe: I'm just kind of biased against pg, since he has some strong opinions that are not true in my opinion and that have, IMO, poisoned how Lisp the language and the Lisp community is viewed
2020-06-08T20:10:44Z phoe: Practical Common Lisp
2020-06-08T20:10:47Z phoe: minion: tell seok about pcl
2020-06-08T20:10:47Z minion: seok: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-06-08T20:10:55Z seok: I've already read that one
2020-06-08T20:11:08Z phoe: :D
2020-06-08T20:11:10Z axion: Then you must not have understood it; read it again and do all practicals
2020-06-08T20:11:11Z seok: :D
2020-06-08T20:11:20Z seok: ok :(
2020-06-08T20:12:07Z seok: you got me I've sort of winged it
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2020-06-08T23:10:29Z dlowe: itym push! :)
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2020-06-08T23:31:05Z jcowan: pjb: I once had to write an Arpanet finger utility for TOPS-10 in Cobol, because that was the only language the mgr could be sure of getting maintenance programmers for
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2020-06-09T02:16:35Z Harag: morning, anybody here tried to run a docker impage on google run before? I have a docker that works locally but in google run sbcl crashes with dont know how to require
2020-06-09T02:18:31Z Harag: i suspect that there is a difference in the environment between what the docker RUN commands (used to intsall sbcl and quicklisp) do and what the CMD does  which is start lisp with my code
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2020-06-09T02:26:52Z no-defun-allowed: What do you REQUIRE?
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2020-06-09T02:28:12Z no-defun-allowed: If it's an ASDF system, you would probably get a better error message if you used the appropriate Quicklisp or ASDF invocation.
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2020-06-09T02:34:44Z Harag: flexi-streams
2020-06-09T02:35:14Z Harag: if I try ql:quickload it cant find ql
2020-06-09T02:35:33Z Harag: but in urn commands it finds ql fine
2020-06-09T02:36:34Z Harag: thats why I am suspecting environment ... maybe the CMD does use the same .sbclrc or something
2020-06-09T02:37:19Z Harag: typo...in RUN commands it finds ql fine
2020-06-09T02:37:59Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, you would need to make sure Quicklisp was loaded.
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2020-06-09T03:00:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-09T03:05:03Z Harag: morning beach
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2020-06-09T03:28:47Z Harag: no-defun-allowed: FYI the google docker builds RUN command looks for .sbclrc in "/.sbclrc" and the CMD command looks for it in "/home/.sbclrc"
2020-06-09T03:30:06Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. Does it contain the Quicklisp-loading form?
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2020-06-09T03:38:24Z Harag: no-defun-allowed: "/home/.sbclrc" does not exist by the looks of it... checking to see if there are differences in (sb-int:sbcl-homedir-pathname) as well
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2020-06-09T03:39:25Z Harag: the build deploy just takes for ever :( because gcloud build does not use caching like docker build command
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2020-06-09T05:35:39Z Harag: no-defun-allowed:  so the home directory differs between RUN and CMD commans...RUN = /root and CMD = /home which means its not finding quicklisp or the .sbclrc etc
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2020-06-09T05:36:29Z Harag: no-defun-allowed: but the UID for the linux user is the same! IE 0
2020-06-09T05:38:10Z no-defun-allowed: Harag: Okay, I don't know anything about Docker honestly.
2020-06-09T05:38:20Z no-defun-allowed: And I'm technically in a programming test right now.
2020-06-09T05:39:53Z beach: Harag: Leave no-defun-allowed alone! :)
2020-06-09T05:40:04Z Harag: lol
2020-06-09T05:40:17Z Harag: no-defun-allowed: nop
2020-06-09T05:40:23Z Harag: good luck with the test
2020-06-09T05:40:27Z no-defun-allowed: I mean, I know aeth and I have also had to wait for it to work when testing GitLab CI, but otherwise I don't know Docker.
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2020-06-09T05:41:43Z Harag: i was looking for a sbcl *magic* parameter to get around whatever linux magic google is doing ... asking in docker and linux forums to see how I can fix it in linux instead
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2020-06-09T05:51:37Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, done with the test now. (But I still don't know Docker, so I'm not sure what to suggest.)
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2020-06-09T06:04:01Z easye: Morning, brothers and sisters in CONS.
2020-06-09T06:04:03Z Harag: no-defun-allowed: dont worry I will find a solution eventually ;) ... and I am new to docker as well only my 3rd day
2020-06-09T06:04:32Z no-defun-allowed: Hello easye.
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2020-06-09T06:06:01Z easye: I'm trying to find an message exchange with Rich Hickey that occured in 2005-6 in which he announces he is working on what will become Clojure, and I advocate extending ABCL.  But either I hallucinated this, or it never existed.  Anyone know of a decent comp.lang.lisp archive from this era?
2020-06-09T06:06:11Z easye: We lost a lot when gmane.org went away.
2020-06-09T06:07:52Z no-defun-allowed: I was going to say Google Groups, but that appears to only go to 2008.
2020-06-09T06:08:28Z easye: I still curse GOOG's essential neglect of their takeover of DejaNews.
2020-06-09T06:10:02Z easye: I think somebody (Xach?) spent some time futzing with Google Groups to retrieve the articles.  I think the usenet posts are still accessible via message id somehow, but an index of message ids is not available.
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2020-06-09T06:14:19Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe.
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2020-06-09T06:35:48Z phoe: easye: https://github.com/noend2/comp.lang.lisp-archive
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2020-06-09T06:55:58Z easye: phoe: Thanks!
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2020-06-09T07:08:10Z loke: Hello
2020-06-09T07:08:28Z no-defun-allowed: Hello loke
2020-06-09T07:08:45Z beach: Hello loke.  Long time no see.
2020-06-09T07:08:50Z loke: Yeah
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2020-06-09T07:09:08Z loke: I've been working, and hacking on a non-Lisp project for a bit.
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2020-06-09T07:09:34Z beach: Work has a tendency to take time from more interesting activities.
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2020-06-09T07:10:35Z loke: Indeed.
2020-06-09T07:11:12Z loke: That said, my non-Lisp project is personal actually. It's research into APL
2020-06-09T07:11:38Z beach: Nice!
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2020-06-09T07:19:34Z loke: It's an experiment in building a lazy-evaluated, mostly-immutable version of APL with transparent parallelisation.
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2020-06-09T09:39:07Z seok: I am given an api key and secret key from an api provider, and it asks me to send a signature using SHA256 HMAC
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2020-06-09T09:39:18Z seok: Which function in ironclad do I use for this?
2020-06-09T09:40:10Z _death: hmac-digest
2020-06-09T09:40:47Z seok: hmac-digest takes hmac, buffer and buffer-start
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2020-06-09T09:41:09Z seok: which parameters do I use?
2020-06-09T09:41:37Z _death: you can M-. to find the source code in ironclad and it should all become clear
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2020-06-09T10:11:05Z flip214: _death: Is there a reason ironclad::hkdf-extract is not exported?
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2020-06-09T10:15:54Z _death: I guess because it doesn't pad the output, which hkdf-expand does.. hmac-derive-key looks like the high-level operator that should be used
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2020-06-09T10:16:29Z _death: or the derive-key wrapper
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2020-06-09T10:22:21Z _death: I suppose there could be a hmac-sequence etc. like the digest helpers
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2020-06-09T10:30:29Z flip214: possibly... I just switched to PBKDF2-HASH-PASSWORD with 3 iterations
2020-06-09T10:33:28Z loke: 3 iterations is kind of useless, no?
2020-06-09T10:33:42Z loke: Last time I used PBKDF2 I think I used 20000 iterations.
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2020-06-09T11:04:49Z Shinmera: I think I set crypto-shortcuts to do 1000 iterations by default
2020-06-09T11:07:42Z seok: _death is this right? https://pastebin.com/RmiD3pG4
2020-06-09T11:08:11Z seok: I am getting a string back, but I'm not sure it is the correct sig
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2020-06-09T11:19:39Z flip214: loke: Well, I just need to mangle all that together a bit. there's already 256 bits of randomness included.
2020-06-09T11:20:18Z flip214: basically, I wanted (hash (hash key) number)  so that (hash key) can be calculated only once.
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2020-06-09T11:20:36Z no-defun-allowed: Unless your password has 256 bits of entropy, then you don't have 256 bits of entropy.
2020-06-09T11:21:22Z no-defun-allowed: You get 256 bits, sure, but not 256 bits of entropy. (Adding more iterations makes it harder to guess what 256 bits you did get, but it doesn't change the entropy.)
2020-06-09T11:21:35Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: no, the _input_ has 256bits of entropy already.
2020-06-09T11:21:50Z no-defun-allowed: Okay then.
2020-06-09T11:21:59Z flip214: or what the systems behind believe to be randomness, anyway ;)
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2020-06-09T11:37:53Z TMA: please, do not invent your own crypto
2020-06-09T11:39:47Z flip214: TMA: thanks for your concern (really, I mean it!)... just deriving a few (numbered) IDs from known data, not critical.
2020-06-09T11:40:41Z TMA: that's the about the only takeaway from a crypto course that stuck
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2020-06-09T11:41:46Z flip214: and the most important one! luckily we've come so far, I don't need to "optimize" crypto for 200MHz RISC processors any more ;)
2020-06-09T11:41:54Z TMA: the other is the reason behind that: it is really, really hard to do it right
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2020-06-09T13:24:25Z jackdaniel: this argument about not "implementing your own crypto" always sounded like a moot to me. don't build your own software because you may get it wrong too, right?
2020-06-09T13:24:51Z jackdaniel: I remember reading somewhere, that crypto standards are often deliberely obfuscated so it is easy to make mistakes, but I don't remember the source
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2020-06-09T13:25:33Z jackdaniel: not that I find it interesting to build crypto software myself
2020-06-09T13:25:34Z easye: jackdaniel: its more an admonition about the stakes of making a mistake.
2020-06-09T13:26:02Z phoe: if you screw up and use a O(n³) algorithm instead of an O(n) algorithm, your application will be unusable
2020-06-09T13:26:33Z easye: And that without a deep understanding of crytpanalysis what looks "good enough" to you may easily provide worse than no security to an adversary.
2020-06-09T13:26:34Z phoe: if you screw up while performing crypto and someone notices, usually user data leaks and/or hostile data makes its way in
2020-06-09T13:27:15Z phoe: the latter is usually a bigger concern because algorithms can be fixed and machines can be brought back up, but data leaks are not containable
2020-06-09T13:27:31Z easye: As for crypto standards being "backdoored", yes there is a long history of state actors, especially the US, deliberately weakening things.
2020-06-09T13:27:58Z easye: But the open crypto community actively tries to identify and publicize such subversions.
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2020-06-09T13:29:02Z jackdaniel: writing volunerable application which may expose the server has also big costs, but I've never heard an advice: "DO NOT WRITE YOUR OWN HTTP SERVER" ;-) I just find this 'advice' quite questionable
2020-06-09T13:29:25Z jackdaniel: or "do not write your sql database"
2020-06-09T13:29:33Z easye: jackdaniel: advice is free to take and ignore I suppose.
2020-06-09T13:29:52Z jackdaniel: yes, it is also free to comment, and I took that freedom since it appeared here
2020-06-09T13:30:11Z easye: "do not write your own sql database" is more about "why would you bother at this point?"
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2020-06-09T13:31:24Z easye: Well, as someone who has been writing blockchain stuff for the past several years, I still think "do not write your own crypto" is good advice.
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2020-06-09T13:31:51Z Shinmera: I think 'keep things on topic' is good advice
2020-06-09T13:31:59Z easye: But if you feel compelled to do so, you should be rigorous about getting someone else to review your code is.
2020-06-09T13:32:05Z easye: Shinmera: point taken.
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2020-06-09T14:24:29Z jackdaniel: ah, I forgot to mention, "and all that of course in lisp!"; more seriously though my bad, sorry :)
2020-06-09T14:26:31Z quazimodo: there used to be a guy i asked questions
2020-06-09T14:26:34Z quazimodo: pascal bourginon?
2020-06-09T14:26:40Z phoe: pjb
2020-06-09T14:26:49Z quazimodo: pjb right, he still around?
2020-06-09T14:26:50Z phoe: I can't currently see him online
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2020-06-09T14:27:44Z quazimodo: was doing something & got reminiscent, wondered if he's still around doing software
2020-06-09T14:27:57Z quazimodo: dude's emacs config was ... scary
2020-06-09T14:27:58Z jackdaniel: he still hangs out on this channel (and a few others)
2020-06-09T14:28:20Z jackdaniel: he's just not currently connected
2020-06-09T14:28:28Z quazimodo: yeah ok
2020-06-09T14:28:34Z jackdaniel: s/currently/at the moment/
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2020-06-09T15:21:09Z jmercouris: function to collapse vector of strings into string? or must I utilize map or something?
2020-06-09T15:21:19Z jmercouris: just wondering if there exists something in the spec for this operation
2020-06-09T15:21:55Z jmercouris: concatenate will work ?
2020-06-09T15:22:03Z beach: Yes.
2020-06-09T15:22:21Z beach: Oh wait...
2020-06-09T15:22:28Z beach: A vector of strings?
2020-06-09T15:22:36Z jmercouris: not of type character
2020-06-09T15:22:40Z jmercouris: yes, a vector of strings
2020-06-09T15:22:44Z jmercouris: #("a" "a" "a" "a" "a")
2020-06-09T15:23:46Z jmercouris: so, strings are character arrays in lisp?
2020-06-09T15:23:58Z edgar-rft: yes
2020-06-09T15:24:04Z jmercouris: damnit, we can never escape c
2020-06-09T15:24:15Z beach: No, strings are vectors of characters.
2020-06-09T15:24:17Z pjb: #() creates an array of T
2020-06-09T15:24:28Z beach: (reduce (lambda (x y) (concatenate 'string x y)) vector-of-strings :from-end t)
2020-06-09T15:24:33Z beach: Not tested.
2020-06-09T15:24:39Z pjb: (make-array 3 :element-type 'character :initial-contents "abc") #| --> "abc" |#
2020-06-09T15:24:40Z pjb: (make-array 3 :element-type 't :initial-contents "abc") #| --> #(#\a #\b #\c) |#
2020-06-09T15:25:04Z jmercouris: beach: OK, so no built in
2020-06-09T15:25:12Z jmercouris: I searched but i thought maybe i overlooked something
2020-06-09T15:25:20Z beach: No, we need a new revised standard with that one built in.
2020-06-09T15:25:27Z jmercouris: lol
2020-06-09T15:25:40Z pjb: (with-output-to-string (out) (map nil (lambda (string) (write-string string out)) #("abc" "def" "ghi"))) #| --> "abcdefghi" |#  might be more efficient.
2020-06-09T15:26:54Z jmercouris: maybe
2020-06-09T15:27:07Z jmercouris: I like the reduce
2020-06-09T15:27:21Z pjb: will be O(n^2).
2020-06-09T15:27:46Z pjb: it's generally expected from implementations that with-output-to-string will give O(n) asymptotically.
2020-06-09T15:27:58Z jmercouris: I understand that, yeah
2020-06-09T15:28:08Z jmercouris: it makes sense to me from an intuitive perspective
2020-06-09T15:28:19Z pjb: But for real O(n), you want com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:concatenate-strings
2020-06-09T15:28:22Z jmercouris: in case you are wondering what I am doing beach
2020-06-09T15:28:28Z jmercouris: I am making a string representation for a cluffer buffer
2020-06-09T15:28:32Z jmercouris: based on vectors
2020-06-09T15:28:32Z edgar-rft: stupid but wotrks: (apply 'concatenate 'string (coerce #("a" "a" "a" "a" "a") 'list))
2020-06-09T15:28:48Z jmercouris: i decided to extend simple line, because, maybe I am a simple person :-D
2020-06-09T15:28:50Z beach: I considered that one.
2020-06-09T15:28:50Z pjb: up to call-arguments-limit.
2020-06-09T15:28:52Z jmercouris: it is just a first implementation for now
2020-06-09T15:28:52Z Bike: probably conses more, tho
2020-06-09T15:29:11Z jmercouris: performance later, if necessary now, i am just extending the protocol with some functions i need
2020-06-09T15:29:11Z Bike: well, though the concatenate reduction will also cons quite a few intermediate strings
2020-06-09T15:29:12Z jmercouris: like
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2020-06-09T15:29:14Z jmercouris: move-forward-word
2020-06-09T15:29:20Z jmercouris: s/functions/methods
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2020-06-09T15:30:51Z pjb: So basically you hve to write (if (< (length vec) (- call-arguments-limit 3)) (apply 'concatenate 'string (coerce vec 'list)) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:concatenate-strings vec))
2020-06-09T15:30:57Z pjb: so it's simplier to just write (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:concatenate-strings vec)
2020-06-09T15:32:09Z jmercouris: call-arguments-limit -> 4611686018427387903
2020-06-09T15:32:12Z jmercouris: I would say that is pretty good
2020-06-09T15:32:23Z jmercouris: I don't think a user will ever type that many characters
2020-06-09T15:32:26Z jmercouris: in their minibuffer
2020-06-09T15:32:27Z jackdaniel: that calls for a library! trivial-concatenate-strings-from-vector (and a new standard)
2020-06-09T15:32:32Z jmercouris: i could be wrong of course
2020-06-09T15:32:59Z pjb: jmercouris: call-arguments-limit can be as low as 20.
2020-06-09T15:33:11Z jmercouris: nobody is running anything other than sbcl or ccl
2020-06-09T15:33:15Z jmercouris: at least for my case
2020-06-09T15:33:23Z jmercouris: unless someone wants to go out of their way and make it work on abcl or something
2020-06-09T15:33:27Z pjb: jmercouris: so you can also write #+sbcl (apply 'concatenate 'string (coerce vec 'list)) #-sbcl (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:concatenate-strings vec)  but it's simplier to just write (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:concatenate-strings vec)
2020-06-09T15:33:44Z jmercouris: I'm not going to bring in a dependency for 1 function
2020-06-09T15:33:56Z pjb: jmercouris: otherwise there's #sbcl if you don't want a conforming Common Lisp answer.
2020-06-09T15:34:13Z pjb: jmercouris: you can use the with-output-to-string alternative.
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2020-06-09T15:34:33Z jmercouris: I am doing that
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2020-06-09T15:34:47Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/13PF4AV
2020-06-09T15:34:49Z jmercouris: simple
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2020-06-09T17:59:04Z matzy_: so my friends and i are building an app (that we hope will be wildly used) and i want to write our own custom api with hunchentoot/cl.  my friend, however, is worried about scalability issues and is suggesting using firebase.  does hunchentoot have such scalability issues that it'd be worth it to go with firebase instead?  or is it very scalable
2020-06-09T17:59:04Z matzy_: for large applications?
2020-06-09T17:59:17Z phoe: matzy_: define "large"
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2020-06-09T18:00:02Z matzy_: i dunno, they think it will be bigger than i do, maybe a few hundred simultaneous users?
2020-06-09T18:00:29Z matzy_: but it's really impossible to tell until people start using it and it either becomes big or stays niche
2020-06-09T18:01:03Z phoe: it's a bit like comparing apples to oranges; hunchentoot is a HTTP server whereas firebase is a whole infrastructure as a service platform
2020-06-09T18:02:49Z matzy_: yeah that's where i got a bit confused, we're running a react/tsx front-end hunchentoot server, so i don't see what firebase would do that we already aren't covering ourselves
2020-06-09T18:03:05Z matzy_: like i think debugging is far easier in hunchentoot with the repl
2020-06-09T18:04:39Z matzy_: i've been reading the firebase docs but i dont really see what it gets us over setting up the stack ourselves
2020-06-09T18:04:56Z phoe: firebase-scale bills™
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2020-06-09T18:07:13Z pve: matzy_: do either of you know firebase well?
2020-06-09T18:07:36Z matzy_: no
2020-06-09T18:07:50Z matzy_: it would be everyone's first time using it
2020-06-09T18:10:11Z pve: i think you need to use what you know best (that does the job) in order to get the prototype into the hands of users
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2020-06-09T18:14:59Z matzy_: and if it really blows up, we could abandon the api and switch to firebase?  or is that too large of a refactor?
2020-06-09T18:15:48Z phoe: what do you mean, abandon the API? if you have a web application, you have a frontend and a backend, and you communicate via REST
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2020-06-09T18:16:18Z phoe: in the end, it doesn't matter for the end user if the REST or the frontend are served by Hunchentoot or apache or nodejs or whatever
2020-06-09T18:16:46Z matzy_: right, but doesn't firebase serve as the api?
2020-06-09T18:19:43Z phoe: I have no idea, but I would find it most weird if some cloud platform did *not* allow you to specify the REST endpoints that your application uses
2020-06-09T18:20:12Z phoe: but then again, I might be wrong
2020-06-09T18:20:17Z phoe: so, dunno!
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2020-06-09T18:46:37Z matzy_: phoe thanks for all the help!
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2020-06-09T20:27:43Z p_l: phoe: extreme end of PaaS
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2020-06-09T20:28:06Z p_l: Also, I'm technically doing that to devs in my team
2020-06-09T20:28:20Z p_l: We want to standardize the structure of endpoints
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2020-06-09T22:05:16Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: (map nil 'ql-dist:ensure-installed (mapcar 'ql-dist:system (ql:who-depends-on "bordeaux-threads"))) is one way
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2020-06-09T23:42:24Z thmprover: Good afternoon, gang
2020-06-09T23:43:55Z thmprover: What exactly is the convention with systems, modules, and packages in Common Lisp?
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2020-06-09T23:57:33Z Xach: thmprover: only packages are defined in common lisp. systems are an add-on to specify how to load a bit of software - they usually specify the source files and what order to compile and load them. modules are not really used much as defined by the standard.
2020-06-09T23:57:53Z Xach: packages are for organizing symbols, which name things. they don't work on any level other than symbols.
2020-06-09T23:58:19Z Xach: oh, and systems can also express relationships with other systems, like "to load system A, first load system B"
2020-06-09T23:59:06Z thmprover: So one project could consist of multiple systems?
2020-06-09T23:59:16Z Xach: thmprover: yes.
2020-06-09T23:59:59Z thmprover: Would it be a misleading intuition to think of systems as belonging in separate git repositories?
2020-06-10T00:00:15Z Xach: i think those are separate concerns.
2020-06-10T00:00:26Z Xach: how you store the files in a project doesn't have a ton of bearing on the systems it defines or relies on.
2020-06-10T00:01:23Z Xach: although it's not a formal concept, i like to think of a "project" as a single thing that may define one or more systems, and that's usually the granularity of a git repo.
2020-06-10T00:01:39Z Xach: but some git repos have a bunch of projects (though that's not all that common in CL world that i've seen)
2020-06-10T00:02:15Z Xach: and not everything uses git, but as shorthand for "source of a project" it's all that far off
2020-06-10T00:05:26Z thmprover: Right, so - broadly speaking - we could have in an MVC architecture, for example, the models do not necessarily form a system, at least not on the grounds that they're the models? (Though ostensibly the business logic may make it natural to make it an accidental, not an essential, system)
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2020-06-10T00:05:42Z Xach: I don't know anything about MVC, sorry.
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2020-06-10T00:08:30Z thmprover: Another example, I'm working on a problem-solving environment for some scientific problems. I'm thinking about sticking all my numerical analysis code in the "/numerical" subdirectory, and since it's fairly self-contained, it's natural for that to form a system, right?
2020-06-10T00:09:38Z Xach: thmprover: that seems pretty reasonable
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2020-06-10T00:12:54Z thmprover: Xach: cool, thanks :)
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2020-06-10T02:59:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-10T05:08:44Z kinope: Hey all!
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2020-06-10T05:12:56Z easye: kinope: Good morning.
2020-06-10T05:17:52Z kinope: easye: Afternoon ;)
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2020-06-10T05:38:06Z kinope: Does anyone have experience with code instrumentation? A cursory duckduckgo search turns up packages whose acronyms have been recycled by more recent projects. I'm attempting to implement a lock-free queue and I need a way to verify it's behavior.
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2020-06-10T05:39:15Z beach: How do you plan to use code instrumentation to verify the behavior?
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2020-06-10T05:50:56Z kinope: Perhaps I'm not using the right word, what I need is a way to observe the sequential operations occuring to a shared data structure, across all threads in chronological order. I hope to be able to see where I messed up the logic, or where pre-emption is causing errors due to incorrect assumptions and unspecified contracts.
2020-06-10T05:52:38Z beach: Sounds hard.
2020-06-10T05:55:31Z kinope: H
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2020-06-10T05:57:48Z kinope: Hmm, I think I may need an already functioning wait-free queue to push debugging information to from within my non functioning lock-free queue haha.
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2020-06-10T06:03:44Z kinope: I think I can just use 'assert' to specify contracts. But it would be nice to have that larger view of what's happening.
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2020-06-10T06:20:14Z p_l: kinope: if you don't need to watch the data in real time, you can sump from each thread to separate list, with time data as part of each entry
2020-06-10T06:20:37Z p_l: You have comfort that within single process, the clock should be synced ;-)
2020-06-10T06:21:04Z p_l: Then you need to merge & sort them later for analysis
2020-06-10T06:21:31Z p_l: (this is how distributed systems do tracing, BTW)
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2020-06-10T06:26:25Z kinope: Yes watching it isn't actually necessary. This seems like a fantastic approach! Thanks. I couldn't see the forest for the trees!
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2020-06-10T06:28:37Z kinope: Oops, thanks p_l
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2020-06-10T06:29:06Z Shinmera: I have a finished and working implementation of a lockless list
2020-06-10T06:29:12Z p_l: no problem
2020-06-10T06:29:55Z p_l: kinope: I will be probably working on something from the distributed space soonish, and might even use the technique described if I rewrite a certain mess of code in CL
2020-06-10T06:32:37Z p_l: So it's been on my mind
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2020-06-10T06:36:10Z beach: Shinmera: What kind of "list"?  What is the interface?
2020-06-10T06:36:45Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/luckless/blob/master/list.lisp
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2020-06-10T06:38:26Z beach: Thanks.
2020-06-10T06:38:50Z Shinmera: No problem. The original paper referenced is really easy to understand.
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2020-06-10T06:39:09Z beach: Yes, I looked at it.
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2020-06-10T06:39:53Z kinope: Shinmera: Awesome, I've pinned that for later
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2020-06-10T07:13:23Z Harag: morning, is there anyway to override the home directory for SBCL when loading?
2020-06-10T07:13:34Z phoe: envvar SBCL_HOME
2020-06-10T07:13:50Z Harag: that is where sbcl is
2020-06-10T07:14:14Z Harag: i want to change what sbcl precieves as the process HOME
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2020-06-10T07:15:35Z phoe: process HOME? what do you mean?
2020-06-10T07:15:49Z phoe: how do you access it inside SBCL?
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2020-06-10T07:17:47Z scymtym: maybe SB-POSIX:CHDIR?
2020-06-10T07:17:59Z Harag: trying that now thanx
2020-06-10T07:18:03Z phoe: oh, the current directory? yes, that'll work
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2020-06-10T07:22:35Z Harag: phoe: actually its a bit more complicated... i am trying to start sbcl in a "google cloud run" (basically a docker) but the CMD command to start SBCL is changing the root user home form /root to /home which seems to leave quicklisp in a tiz...sbcl either cant find ql or if I specify a set dir for quicklisp and point sbcl to a sysinit file that will work then QL loading crashes with ... 11 nested errors. SB-KERNEL:*MAXIMUM-ERROR-DEPTH* exceeded.
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2020-06-10T07:23:14Z phoe: nested debugger like that? eww
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2020-06-10T07:26:40Z Harag: darn ... SB-POSIX:CHDIR seams to work!!! I got sbcl to actually run now to see if loading code works
2020-06-10T07:26:54Z Harag: 2 days wasted
2020-06-10T07:27:58Z scymtym: nested errors are still strange. is it trying to print a pathname containing "~" as part of the backtrace while the HOME environment variable is not set or something like that?
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2020-06-10T07:28:47Z phoe: would be worth submitting a SBCL issue for it, too, if you can reproduce that and have crash logs
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2020-06-10T07:33:46Z Harag: phoe: got to run but will have a look
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2020-06-10T09:07:59Z phoe: Online Lisp Meeting #3 announced. https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/h0774g
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2020-06-10T10:36:12Z Harag: sbcl was not loading ql and sb-posix is not found when I try to do it during --eval
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2020-06-10T10:43:08Z pjb: Indeed,  sbcl --noinform --no-userinit --eval '(progn (print (find-package "SB-POSIX")) (terpri))' --quit # prints NIL
2020-06-10T10:44:33Z pjb: try: sbcl --noinform --no-userinit --eval '(progn (mapcar (function print) (sort (mapcar (function package-name) (list-all-packages)) (function string<))) (terpri))' --quit
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2020-06-10T10:45:13Z pjb: and try: sbcl --noinform --no-userinit --eval '(require "SB-POSIX")' --eval '(progn (print (find-package "SB-POSIX")) (terpri))' --quit
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2020-06-10T12:13:47Z shka_: phoe: that's super cool, are there videos of previous meetings?
2020-06-10T12:18:24Z phoe: shka_: yes
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2020-06-10T12:18:46Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xprY8GCxFQ
2020-06-10T12:18:49Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T9ApaL6Un8
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2020-06-10T12:35:17Z Harag: I can require sb-posix and chdir to root but (user-homedir-pathname) is still /home ...
2020-06-10T12:37:20Z Harag: and it looks like (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op "quicklisp" :verbose nil) is failing with  Component "quicklisp" not found in quicklisp/setup.lisp
2020-06-10T12:37:30Z Harag: which leads to ((:METHOD ASDF/OPERATE:OPERATE (SYMBOL T)) ASDF/LISP-ACTION:LOAD-OP "quicklisp" :VERBOSE NIL) [fast-method]
2020-06-10T12:38:47Z Harag: which leads to ((:METHOD ASDF/OPERATE:OPERATE (SYMBOL T)) ASDF/LISP-ACTION:LOAD-OP "quicklisp" :VERBOSE NIL) [fast-method] changed too much to cope with.
2020-06-10T12:39:29Z Harag: sorry for the double paste there
2020-06-10T12:39:41Z jackdaniel: the usual way to load quicklisp is (load "/path/to/ql/setup.lisp")
2020-06-10T12:40:21Z Harag: yes but that crashes with 11 nested errors. SB-KERNEL:*MAXIMUM-ERROR-DEPTH* exceeded
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2020-06-10T12:41:42Z Harag: so I have put a lot of prints in it to see what is happening and am loading it with --load and not .sbclrc
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2020-06-10T12:42:11Z Harag: loading it I maen the setup.lisp file
2020-06-10T12:43:39Z jackdaniel: maybe try to "install" quicklisp at a location where paths do not change (changing paths sounds like an awful way to do things, probably there is a good reason for that though)
2020-06-10T12:43:53Z jackdaniel: i.e /opt/quicklisp/
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2020-06-10T12:45:44Z Harag: yeah I am not the one changing the HOME from /root to /home "google cloud run" CMD is for some reason. So I installed ql in a custom folder /src/ and pointed init to that but will try to install it in /home
2020-06-10T12:48:28Z Harag: while its compiling... I do the install with RUN in the docker file and run reports the HOME to be /root but when you use CMD it reports HOME as /home ...
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2020-06-10T12:53:01Z Harag: the RUN command has no issues with QL but the CMD has and the only diff I could see was the HOME /root vs /home
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2020-06-10T12:53:38Z Harag: Help! 11 nested errors. SB-KERNEL:*MAXIMUM-ERROR-DEPTH* exceeded.
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2020-06-10T12:54:04Z Harag: installing ql in /home gives the same crash message
2020-06-10T12:54:25Z jackdaniel: nested errors are usually because of stream problems
2020-06-10T12:54:43Z jackdaniel: i.e you can't write output to signal the error
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2020-06-10T12:55:07Z jackdaniel: (so, due to impossibility to write, you signal another error, which can't be written)
2020-06-10T12:55:58Z Harag: which leads me back to trying to debug quicklisp/setup.lisp to see what caused the first error...
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2020-06-10T12:56:20Z jackdaniel: I'd try to make streams available first, to simply see it ,)
2020-06-10T12:57:22Z jackdaniel: the first error may be for the same reason, i.e that quicklisp can't write something like "may the force be with you"
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2020-06-10T12:59:14Z jackdaniel: s/force/forth/
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2020-06-10T12:59:36Z Harag: can you take a guess at what linux command the CMD is doing to change the HOME but not the actual user, I checked the user is 0 in RUN and CMD and I cant see that they are using su or something to change users ps reports all processes to be using root
2020-06-10T12:59:58Z Harag: maybe if I can understand that I can come up with a why ql is unhappy
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2020-06-10T13:00:44Z jackdaniel: I've decided long time ago to not pay attention to systemd and docker hacks in the kernel, life is too short to play catch with kludges
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2020-06-10T13:01:56Z Harag: what is worse is in pure docker it works fine but in "google cloud run" it fails
2020-06-10T13:02:15Z Harag: so every test is a horrible cycle of compile and upload
2020-06-10T13:03:12Z Xach: very antithetical to incremental, living updates
2020-06-10T13:03:13Z jackdaniel: I remember that sbcl's mutexes on google vms were not fair, what was a major disaster (not to mention amount of time the person who tracked that have wasted)
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2020-06-10T13:04:08Z jackdaniel: Harag: can you run "plain" sbcl and start a swank server without loading ql?
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2020-06-10T13:04:19Z Harag: I can run plain sbcl
2020-06-10T13:04:20Z jackdaniel: then you could try to connect to it, and then see the error in a console
2020-06-10T13:04:27Z Harag: have not tried swank..
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2020-06-10T13:05:34Z Harag: because you have to do some really crazy stuff the connect to it...basically from what I found on google you have to setup a machine with a fixed ip so that the docker can do a call back and connect to you and then you can work with it
2020-06-10T13:05:39Z jackdaniel: you will probably need to change the loopback interface and that will not be safe, but for debugging that should be good enough
2020-06-10T13:06:07Z jackdaniel: did I mention "kludges" and how life is short? :)
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2020-06-10T13:06:56Z Harag: wont be the first time I spent weeks on a single problem... wont be the last
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2020-06-10T13:07:33Z jackdaniel: maybe you could ssh into this docker image and run emacs from inside?
2020-06-10T13:07:43Z jackdaniel: then you could use the localhsot
2020-06-10T13:07:46Z jackdaniel: localhost*
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2020-06-10T13:40:02Z Harag: well its the (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op "quicklisp" :verbose t ) that is causing the "11 nested errors " but cant get more info out of it than that...
2020-06-10T13:40:30Z Harag: I hacked the paths so that it at least finds "quicklisp" now
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2020-06-10T13:45:42Z pjb: quicklisp is not loaded with asdf.
2020-06-10T13:45:52Z pjb: quicklisp is loaded by loading ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp or some other such file.
2020-06-10T13:48:16Z pjb: try: sbcl --noinform --no-userinit --eval '(load #P"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp")' --eval '(ql:quickload :split-sequence)'  --eval '(progn (print (split-sequence:split-sequence (quote /) (quote (a / b / c)))) (terpri))' --quit
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2020-06-10T13:56:38Z Harag: pjb quicklisp/setup.lisp uses (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op "quicklisp" :verbose nil )
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2020-06-10T14:09:15Z Harag: ok well I dumped a core and that works
2020-06-10T14:09:31Z Harag: using RUN
2020-06-10T14:09:43Z Harag: loading the core with CMD works
2020-06-10T14:10:39Z Harag: now I just need to put it in the back ground, just running woo blocks the deploy from ever completing
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2020-06-10T14:26:46Z Harag: I suspect all the trouble is stdin, "google cloud run" does not allow you to pass parameters to fake it like you can in docker native with -ti
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2020-06-10T14:28:51Z bitmapper: Xach: i noticed your twitter post, how much have you worked with the Obj-C interface in CCL?
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2020-06-10T14:34:19Z Xach: bitmapper: none
2020-06-10T14:34:35Z bitmapper: it's surprisingly nice
2020-06-10T14:34:39Z Xach: I don't get the impression that it is comparable to old MCL
2020-06-10T14:34:49Z bitmapper: it really doesn't feel like just objc bindings
2020-06-10T14:35:00Z bitmapper: but rather like flavors
2020-06-10T14:35:00Z Xach: I will have to revisit
2020-06-10T14:35:21Z bitmapper: i was working on updating the IDE to add dark mode support a bit ago and it was quite nice
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2020-06-10T14:36:28Z bitmapper: Xach: the only thing is the interfaces are quite old, and they are not done updating the software that generates them
2020-06-10T14:36:35Z bitmapper: because it doesn't really work anymore
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2020-06-10T16:18:41Z Josh_2: Afternoon all
2020-06-10T16:19:30Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-06-10T16:21:21Z Josh_2: I want to sleep N amount of times in 1 second, how do I do this? Say I want to sleep 5000 times, how do I get the number I pass to sleep?
2020-06-10T16:21:26Z Josh_2: I'm a total maths tard
2020-06-10T16:21:59Z Yardanico: Josh_2: 1 / 5000 ?
2020-06-10T16:22:00Z Yardanico: that's in seconds
2020-06-10T16:22:13Z Yardanico: 0.2ms
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2020-06-10T16:22:37Z Josh_2: I swear
2020-06-10T16:22:39Z Josh_2: :(
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2020-06-10T16:23:14Z Josh_2: Ofcourse it was something as trivial as that, it always is xD
2020-06-10T16:23:17Z Josh_2: cheers Yardanico
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2020-06-10T16:42:51Z shka_: clj — Describe clj here — Specify license here
2020-06-10T16:43:03Z shka_: very descriptive new project in quicklisp :-)
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2020-06-10T16:56:11Z Xach: oh crud
2020-06-10T16:56:17Z Xach: I missed that, sorry
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2020-06-10T16:59:28Z Xach: that got around my very advanced bogus metadata detector AI
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2020-06-10T17:05:58Z pve: Hi, I recently saw a library that allowed for better error reporting in macros, but I can't remember the name. Does this ring a bell for anyone?
2020-06-10T17:06:40Z Bike: https://github.com/scymtym/trivial-with-current-source-form/ this one?
2020-06-10T17:07:02Z pve: Bike: yess, that's the one, thank you
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2020-06-10T18:54:28Z theseb: Can I ask what CL folks think of Clojure? I personally some modernizations it added
2020-06-10T18:57:09Z heisig: theseb: I once wanted to write a compiler in Clojure.  Turns out it takes 6 seconds to even start the process.  So we ditched it for CL.  No regrets so far :)
2020-06-10T18:57:24Z pjb: theseb: there are two CL libraries implementing Clojure. If you have fun with that, then have fun!
2020-06-10T18:58:43Z heisig: I think the main selling point is JVM integration and its immutable data structures.  Sounds like we should advertise ABCL a bit more.
2020-06-10T18:59:05Z pjb: version 1.7.0 of abcl was recently released.
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2020-06-10T19:01:33Z theseb: heisig: certainly that can't still be true...6 s to do anything!?
2020-06-10T19:04:55Z theseb: pjb: one thing i really like is they did away with defining lists in terms of conses....instead they define a "sequence" type from which lists and vectors are built
2020-06-10T19:05:10Z heisig: theseb: That was a few years ago.  But I just checked again, 'time clojure -e "(+ 2 3)"' takes 2.2 seconds on my machine.
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2020-06-10T19:08:08Z theseb: heisig: well i'm guessing that just startup...still...not sure why so slow to start up
2020-06-10T19:08:26Z theseb: heisig: presumably if you ran a program for 1 hour the extra 2 s wouldn't matter
2020-06-10T19:08:47Z pjb: theseb: yeah. useless.
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2020-06-10T19:12:13Z heisig: theseb: Yes, that's mostly JVM startup time.  But it also makes it quite useless for applications that are invoked frequently.
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2020-06-10T19:13:39Z pjb: heisig: well, obviously, you wouldn't keep booting them all the time. You'd do like Android, you'd boot once and that's it.
2020-06-10T19:13:47Z pjb: (until you poweroff the computer).
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2020-06-10T19:46:19Z theseb: i know why "or" must be a macro....but does "and" have to be a macro?  I can't remember why I implement "and" as a macro
2020-06-10T19:46:35Z theseb: The only reason I can see is that if the 1st arg is false...you should NOT eval the 2nd arg
2020-06-10T19:46:45Z theseb: that is the only reason i can see why it may have to be a special form
2020-06-10T19:47:09Z theseb: is that right?
2020-06-10T19:47:29Z Xach: theseb: that's a pretty good reason
2020-06-10T19:47:32Z Josh_2: That's how it functions and the functionality is very useful
2020-06-10T19:47:52Z theseb: Xach: ah..ok..thanks...i always forget that
2020-06-10T19:48:15Z Xach: it beats writing (and-as-a-function (lambda () ...) (lambda () ...) (lambda () ...))
2020-06-10T19:48:58Z Xach: where (defun and-as-a-function (funs) (every #'funcall funs))
2020-06-10T19:49:10Z Xach: oops, &rest funs
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2020-06-10T20:34:40Z phoe: beach: reddit made me aware of http://blog.rongarret.info/2010/02/new-and-improved-lexicons-now-50-lexier.html - are you aware of that work?
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2020-06-10T20:52:09Z h4milton: is there a seperate channel for eLisp ?
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2020-06-10T20:57:33Z h4milton: nobody in here knows about emacs ?
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2020-06-10T21:00:20Z h4milton is confused about how unactive this #channel is ...
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2020-06-10T21:01:45Z phoe: h4milton: well
2020-06-10T21:01:52Z phoe: #lisp is a Common Lisp place
2020-06-10T21:01:56Z phoe: elisp sounds much more like #emacs
2020-06-10T21:02:16Z h4milton: Lisp for emacs as far as I understand
2020-06-10T21:02:40Z phoe: elisp is a language for programming emacs; I don't think there exists a non-#emacs elisp channel
2020-06-10T21:02:43Z phoe: at least I am not aware of any
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2020-06-10T21:03:27Z h4milton: if i want help with emacs before I dive into lisp i should just "/join emacs" ?
2020-06-10T21:03:37Z phoe:  /join #emacs
2020-06-10T21:03:40Z phoe: that'll work
2020-06-10T21:03:40Z h4milton: ok
2020-06-10T21:03:42Z pjb: yes.
2020-06-10T21:03:54Z pjb: and /join #clschool to learn CL.
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2020-06-10T21:53:38Z jmercouris: anyone have experience getting a github action to build/test lisp?
2020-06-10T21:53:46Z jmercouris: it seems you would need an image with SBCL installed at least
2020-06-10T21:54:47Z jmercouris: or at least a script to install SBCL
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2020-06-10T21:57:18Z phoe: axion: ^
2020-06-10T21:57:25Z phoe: I know that some of his stuff is built using gha
2020-06-10T21:57:38Z axion: just check out the build script in pngload
2020-06-10T21:58:09Z phoe: https://github.com/bufferswap/pngload/blob/master/.github/workflows/test.yml
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2020-06-10T21:59:38Z jmercouris: phoe: thanks, that is very useful
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2020-06-10T22:44:59Z ralt: Shinmera: hi, would you mind fact-checking what I said about Deploy? https://gitlab.com/ralt/linux-packaging
2020-06-10T22:45:47Z phoe: ralt: "And you have to somehow figure out how to distribute that folder." I guess, via a zip archive
2020-06-10T22:45:53Z phoe: or a binary tarball
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2020-06-10T22:50:43Z ralt: phoe: yes, and "installation" of an archive is usually awkward
2020-06-10T22:51:11Z ralt: I guess I should phrase it another way
2020-06-10T22:51:26Z phoe: welllll, unzip into /opt/, symlink in all proper places; it's not very automated
2020-06-10T22:51:33Z phoe: your system seems to have a different scope.
2020-06-10T22:51:40Z phoe: ...than deploy, it is.
2020-06-10T22:52:41Z ralt: it's very related
2020-06-10T22:54:00Z ralt: Deploy lets you bundle a GUI application into an archive that users to unzip and run. linux-packaging lets you bundle a GUI application into a package that can be installed and run.
2020-06-10T22:54:04Z phoe: yes, but deploy doesn't concern itself with static linking or foreign libraries found in apt/aur/yum - it grabs them all and dumps them all along with the binary
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2020-06-10T22:54:20Z phoe: next to the binary
2020-06-10T22:54:27Z ralt: I mean, at the end of the day, the goal of both of those is to distribute a Lisp application to users
2020-06-10T22:54:47Z phoe: yes, obviously
2020-06-10T22:55:22Z ralt: in that sense, the goal is very much the same, but the approach taken to do it is fairly different, yes
2020-06-10T22:56:12Z ralt: which is why it makes sense to me to do this comparison, but I want to make sure I'm fair in it.
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2020-06-10T22:59:31Z ralt: I edited the readme, btw.
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2020-06-10T23:39:20Z grewal: One of the less obvious reasons I like lisp is that I don't have to memorize/look up operator precedence rules
2020-06-10T23:40:20Z oni-on-ion: trees are beautiful =)
2020-06-10T23:40:54Z ralt: You can see a lot of them on /r/trees
2020-06-10T23:41:26Z oni-on-ion: yes and outside. but tree shapes, hierarchies, etc =)
2020-06-10T23:41:36Z oni-on-ion visits that sub =) 
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2020-06-11T01:14:30Z Kozo: Greetings, I have emacs-auto-complete installed but it won't auto complete operators for me when writing common lisp. Is someone able to point me in the right direction please?
2020-06-11T01:22:01Z shinohai: >,< 2nd emacs questions today ... try #emacs, this is common lisp chan
2020-06-11T01:23:30Z Kozo: Alright, thank you
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2020-06-11T01:25:16Z shinohai: He left before I could say "vim FOREVAH!"
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2020-06-11T01:37:56Z oni-on-ion: hi Pixel_Outlaw
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2020-06-11T03:14:10Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-11T03:21:17Z beach: phoe: No, I hadn't seen that.  Probably didn't exist when I did my work.  And the purpose is not the same anyway.
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2020-06-11T06:48:34Z no-defun-allowed: What do people use to send email from Common Lisp?
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2020-06-11T06:50:36Z Shinmera: cl-smtp if you already have a mail host.
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2020-06-11T06:51:37Z no-defun-allowed: That'll do then, thanks.
2020-06-11T06:53:10Z Shinmera: caveat: only supports none/plain login types, and does not support pgp/mime
2020-06-11T06:55:00Z no-defun-allowed: Should be enough to login to a specially set up email account and mail the operator a thread backtrace?
2020-06-11T06:55:16Z Shinmera: sure
2020-06-11T06:55:25Z Shinmera: pretty much all email providers use plain login
2020-06-11T06:55:31Z no-defun-allowed: All good then.
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2020-06-11T07:16:53Z larsen: good morning! I am having a problem with Slime I don't know how to debug and fix. If I invoke macroexpansion (slime-expand-1, C-c RET), instead of showing the result of the macro expansion in a dedicated buffer (*slime-macroexpansion*), it: opens said buffer; expands the macro _inplace_, meaning it substitutes the content of my file buffer with the result of the expansion (I then have to revert-buffer to restore the situation). I
2020-06-11T07:16:53Z larsen: suspect this has to do with other Emacs extensions I use, but I can't imagine a strategy to debug the problem (other than emacs -Q I guess, and trying to activate my setup piece by piece)
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2020-06-11T07:35:26Z pve: Good morning. Am I correct in assuming that the following must return a string if the package ASD doesn't exist:
2020-06-11T07:35:30Z pve: (handler-case (read-from-string "ASD::QWE") (package-error (x) (package-error-package x)))
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2020-06-11T07:38:24Z jackdaniel: pve: I think that standard does not specify whether reader signals a package-error in this situation
2020-06-11T07:38:31Z jackdaniel: i.e it could be a read-error, or simple-error
2020-06-11T07:38:42Z jackdaniel: (and that is unfortunate)
2020-06-11T07:38:53Z pve: jackdaniel: aha, interesting
2020-06-11T07:38:57Z pve: thank you
2020-06-11T07:39:14Z pve: and unfortunate
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2020-06-11T07:42:18Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_ce.htm "For example ..., the reader signals a correctable error" (examples are not normative, but it is a paragraph just using the phrase "for example")
2020-06-11T07:43:01Z jackdaniel: and "If editor::buffer is seen, the effect is exactly the same as reading buffer with the EDITOR package being the current package. "
2020-06-11T07:44:37Z pve: ok, that's good to know
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2020-06-11T08:10:56Z larsen: ah, for the record, it seems it was edwin mode
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2020-06-11T10:59:54Z iissaacc: web scraping in common lisp is an incredibly pleasant experience
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2020-06-11T11:00:13Z phoe: iissaacc: XML represented as S-expressions is pleasant in general
2020-06-11T11:00:30Z phoe: instead of </p></div></div></div> one has ))))
2020-06-11T11:00:38Z phoe: I find that to be an amazing tradeoff
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2020-06-11T11:03:01Z p_l: just remember to handle the fact that XML has packages with local nicknames :P
2020-06-11T11:03:43Z phoe: so do we nowadays!
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2020-06-11T11:04:28Z iissaacc: and when i just blindly used pmap from lparallel in the REPL without doing any setup
2020-06-11T11:04:53Z iissaacc: instead of an error message i get a friendly "welcome to lparallel!" condition prompting me to set up a kernel
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2020-06-11T11:05:03Z iissaacc: why dont more people use this language?????
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2020-06-11T11:05:23Z p_l: phoe: yes, but that requires a bit more work if you are going to represet XML in S-expressions :)
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2020-06-11T11:06:03Z pjb: one could map xml namespaces to cl packages…
2020-06-11T11:07:19Z p_l: pjb: unfortunately I fear that one would need a special object for XML entities unless one wants to accidentally pollute the image in bad ways, for example to have nickname-independent namespace handling, as well as XML attribute lists
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2020-06-11T11:14:13Z _death: iissaacc: would be better if it set up a default kernel
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2020-06-11T11:32:44Z p_l: _death: I disagree. IIRC there's a single line to add to setup a kernel, and the main reason to have even the ability to use multiple kernels is to have control over them. If it created a kernel automatically, it would break a lot of stuff in fact
2020-06-11T11:33:10Z p_l: (related: why ITA ran, iirc, a customized CCL version that was modified precisely to not start threads automatically)
2020-06-11T11:34:23Z phoe: it's hard to perform DWIM if WIM is not well-defined in an objective enough way
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2020-06-11T11:34:41Z phoe: and for multithreading this is exactly the case
2020-06-11T11:34:49Z _death: p_l: a default does not preclude multiple kernels.. and a lazy default of a kernel containing nprocs workers makes sense to me.. I don't see why it should break stuff
2020-06-11T11:36:24Z _death: right now I have a line in my .sbclrc setting the kernel, and indeed it's an issue when dumping an image.. I could wrap the toplevel with a handler-bind to set it lazily, but..
2020-06-11T11:36:26Z p_l: _death: because there are non-trivial interactions in the running environment related to whether you have single or multiple threads
2020-06-11T11:36:49Z p_l: and lazy setup has the issue of possibly being triggered by mistake
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2020-06-11T11:38:21Z _death: p_l: a default kernel would be useful in a development setting.. an actual application would explicitly init its own kernel
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2020-06-11T11:39:07Z p_l: _death: the issue I see is that anything that triggers threading is a danger in *development* setting. Much less in a deployed application setting
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2020-06-11T11:39:14Z no-defun-allowed: I guess nproc is usually correct, but some people like to count cores and not hardware threads, and if I was doing something like pmapping URLs to retrieve over a network, I would want more worker threads.
2020-06-11T11:39:25Z p_l: it's already an issue when you link to some foreign lib and it triggers a thread when you don't expect it
2020-06-11T11:40:06Z p_l: phoe got it right about DWIM being hard when it's hard to know WIM
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2020-06-11T11:41:19Z no-defun-allowed: (Oh, and you would also have to implement thread count detection, as lparallel doesn't have that to my knowledge.)
2020-06-11T11:42:47Z p_l: you'd also need to check things like current resource limits, which is non-trivial and OS specific and nonportable
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2020-06-11T11:47:36Z _death: it's not hard to find defeaters for any default.. anyway, even if the default default is not to have one, it could still make sense to allow a different default, say by setting lp:*kernel* to a function that can be called to create the actual kernel which will then be assigned to lp:*kernel*
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2020-06-11T11:50:39Z _death: in fact I'm gonna patch my local lparallel to have that
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2020-06-11T11:54:53Z _death: good, this conversation helped solve that issue ;)
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2020-06-11T12:51:57Z Josh_2: Afternoon all
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2020-06-11T13:02:50Z dra: Hello Josh_2!
2020-06-11T13:03:43Z phoe: heyyy
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2020-06-11T13:05:28Z dra: Heya.
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2020-06-11T13:51:38Z Josh_2: sub lexical, super sub lexical scope, all madness!
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2020-06-11T13:52:52Z younder: Josh_2, Well one of Lisp's traditional uses has been to experiment with languages. So you'd expect a bit of weirdness.
2020-06-11T13:53:38Z Josh_2: most of what I have read in Let Over Λ I just can't see how they would be used practically
2020-06-11T13:54:36Z Josh_2: but then again I imagine I thought that about various programming paradigms xD
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2020-06-11T13:56:22Z younder: Josh_2, Let over lambda is a bit weird. Most get their bearings with 'Practical Common Lisp' with Peter Seibel
2020-06-11T13:57:04Z Josh_2: Yes
2020-06-11T13:57:06Z Josh_2: I've read that
2020-06-11T13:57:09Z Josh_2: well most of it
2020-06-11T13:58:08Z younder: Josh_2, Then there is Common Lisp Recippes' by Edi Weitz
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2020-06-11T14:10:59Z Josh_2: I have read a bit of that
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2020-06-11T14:54:17Z Bike: let over lambda is pretty strange, yes. many of the things in there are in fact impractical
2020-06-11T14:55:16Z loli: defmacro! or w/e it is called, can be nice to use. Though I haven't used much outside of that
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2020-06-11T15:02:21Z rumbler31_: is there something similar to #x and #b for decimal numbers? I have an interesting bug where I have set print base to 16 and I want to explicitly read a base 10 integer, this is proving hard to google
2020-06-11T15:02:39Z phoe: rumbler31_: you can try reading 10.
2020-06-11T15:03:00Z phoe: (let ((*read-base* 16)) (read-from-string "10.")) ;=> 10
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2020-06-11T15:04:10Z Bike: rumbler31_: no.
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2020-06-11T15:17:58Z Krystof: #10r<base 10 integer>
2020-06-11T15:19:00Z Krystof: the decimal point at the end is a perfectly good other solution though
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2020-06-11T15:20:55Z rumbler31_: so i have a usocket connect call where I defined the function that uses this in the repl after I changed print base
2020-06-11T15:21:53Z rumbler31_: the resulting connect port gets read into its base 16 version (that miraculously is a legal base 10 number) and that number is passed to the lower level socket open call
2020-06-11T15:22:19Z rumbler31_: I don't think its a bug per se, just trying to reason through the logic
2020-06-11T15:23:00Z phoe: rumbler31_: how do you change the print base?
2020-06-11T15:23:16Z phoe: I assume it's some sort of a global change
2020-06-11T15:23:21Z rumbler31_: I thought at first that it would be fixed by being explicit about the base of the number that I typed into the repl, #10rnumber seems to be what I originally asked
2020-06-11T15:23:35Z rumbler31_: (setf *print-base* 16)
2020-06-11T15:23:38Z phoe: ow
2020-06-11T15:23:47Z phoe: it's weird for me to compile whole systems that way
2020-06-11T15:23:48Z rumbler31_: then numbers in the repl are printed in base 16 for the most part
2020-06-11T15:23:57Z rumbler31_: I didn't compile it that way, I was playing on the repl
2020-06-11T15:24:01Z phoe: oh!
2020-06-11T15:24:07Z phoe: and then did ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM or something?
2020-06-11T15:24:08Z rumbler31_: I mean, I am not compiling a whole system,
2020-06-11T15:24:42Z rumbler31_: I set print base to look at network byte data with plokami and then wrote a funciton in the repl to rebroadcast packets to a udp port
2020-06-11T15:24:57Z phoe: oh, yes
2020-06-11T15:25:04Z rumbler31_: print-base was already 16 when I wrote (defun once ((open socket host portnumber))
2020-06-11T15:25:29Z rumbler31_: so port number was read from decimal into hex, which happened to be a valid decimal number, then that number was passed to the lower level open call
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2020-06-11T15:27:05Z rumbler31_: oops now i've run out of file handles for opening too many sockets and forgetting to close them lol
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2020-06-11T15:49:02Z francogrex: I am disgusted by swig, language cffi and uffi are no longer support. makes me want to vomit
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2020-06-11T16:20:54Z kinope: Hi! Quick question. Are Common Lisp's bitwise operations like 'logand' considered as performant as their C/C++ counterparts? I've seen  this used as an optimisation where a bitmask that is a power of two is used to do modular arithmetic.
2020-06-11T16:21:35Z ralt: kinope: you can probably double check that with DISASSEMBLE
2020-06-11T16:21:48Z phoe: kinope: basically, modular arithmetic in CL happens only when you ask for it
2020-06-11T16:22:36Z phoe: which means that you need to do a proper LDB or MOD for the compiler to notice "oh, I can optimize it into a single CPU instruction on a machine word"
2020-06-11T16:23:27Z pjb: kinope: can C/C++ & perform a bit and operation on 10,000 bits?
2020-06-11T16:23:45Z phoe: kinope: that's a completely orthogonal issue
2020-06-11T16:23:46Z pjb: kinope: I don't think C/C++ can reach the level of performance of CL…
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2020-06-11T16:26:17Z pjb: kinope: if you want to learn something, try to write in C:   (defun f (x) (if (< x 0) 1 (* x (f (- x 1)))))   (defun main () (print (f 1000)))
2020-06-11T16:26:41Z pjb: kinope: then you can try to compare the performance of your C program and of this CL program.
2020-06-11T16:26:46Z pjb: and tell us what you find.
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2020-06-11T16:29:48Z phoe: pjb: right, let's solve a different problem and call that the solution
2020-06-11T16:30:31Z pjb: indeed, C and CL don't solve the same problems.
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2020-06-11T16:32:17Z _death: rumbler31_: I use a repl-specific pprint dispatch table for pervasive hex printing.. see https://github.com/death/slime/commit/fedcefab7e8378ea90979ff3697056dea092ae0a
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2020-06-11T16:35:05Z kinope: ralt: unfortunately for me ECL doesn't do dissasemble, but I did just have a look at the source and it looks like logand is directly translated to C's bitwise and '&'. I can't find where mod is implemented just now though.
2020-06-11T16:36:44Z jackdaniel: kinope: try (disasemble '(lambda () (mod whatever)))
2020-06-11T16:36:56Z jackdaniel: (mind the quote)
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2020-06-11T16:38:12Z jackdaniel: the function mod is implemented in src/c/num_co.d, but the compiler may opencode it into something more efficient if it i.e knows that arguments are fixnums
2020-06-11T16:38:17Z kinope: pjb: I couldn't tell you about that operation on 10000 bits, Bit twiddling is not my forte
2020-06-11T16:39:13Z jackdaniel: regarding bitwise operations, their optimizations are in src/cmp/cmpopt-bits.lsp
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2020-06-11T16:39:53Z kinope: bjb: Is that a function utillising tail-call recursion?
2020-06-11T16:40:54Z kinope: Oh, thanks for that jackdaniel! I appreciate the assist.
2020-06-11T16:41:31Z jackdaniel: note that mod is hardly a bit fiddling operation
2020-06-11T16:42:13Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mod_r.htm
2020-06-11T16:42:40Z jackdaniel: for working with bits there are ldb, dpb and ash
2020-06-11T16:42:48Z jackdaniel: (and some other)
2020-06-11T16:44:11Z pjb: kinope: (defun make-lots-of-bits (n) (map-into (make-array n :element-type 'bit) (lambda () (random 2))))    (let* ((n 10000) (a (make-lots-of-bits n)) (b (make-lots-of-bits n)) (c (bit-and a b))) (print a) (print b) (print c))
2020-06-11T16:44:25Z kinope: jackdaniel: I'm looking at an implementation of a lock-free data structure that I think is bit twiddling for the added performance. I'm just trying to figure out if i can get away with using just the standard 'mod' to the same effect.
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2020-06-11T16:44:55Z _death: kinope: a tail recursive one would have something like (f (- x 1) (* x acc)) in the "induction step", i.e. calling itself would be the last operation
2020-06-11T16:44:58Z pjb: kinope: or: (defun make-int-with-lots-of-bits (n) (random (expt 2 n))) (let* ((n 10000) (a (make-int-with-lots-of-bits n)) (b (make-int-with-lots-of-bits n)) (c (logand a b))) (print a) (print b) (print c))
2020-06-11T16:45:21Z pjb: kinope: same exercise as above, do the same in C, and tell us what you get.
2020-06-11T16:45:41Z jackdaniel: pjb: I don't think taht this is helpful
2020-06-11T16:45:54Z jackdaniel: s/taht/that/
2020-06-11T16:46:04Z pjb: Ok. the original question was idiotic.  Does this help?
2020-06-11T16:46:09Z phoe: neither do I, but that's pjb being mostly right and mostly irrelevant
2020-06-11T16:46:27Z kinope: _death: oh I see
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2020-06-11T16:46:53Z jackdaniel: it was a question of uneducated folk, but I don't think that confusing him more would make him ask better questions
2020-06-11T16:47:42Z phoe: pjb: answering a question with an equally idiotic answer doesn't help anyone, even if the original question is, in your opinion, idiot.s
2020-06-11T16:47:50Z phoe: s/idiot.s/idiotic./
2020-06-11T16:47:56Z pjb: phoe: perhaps you should do those exercises yourself, and learn something!
2020-06-11T16:48:21Z phoe: pjb: perhaps you should do some exercises on being relevant instead of abrasive.
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2020-06-11T16:48:57Z pjb: phoe: the original questionw as a comparison of C and CL on logand. There is no more relevant than to write two programs, in C and in CL using logand.
2020-06-11T16:48:58Z kinope: I may give that a shot later pjb, but right now its 3am in the morning and I'm not set up for C development on my phone, haha.
2020-06-11T16:49:19Z pjb: phoe: you have to be an idiot not to see it…
2020-06-11T16:50:13Z phoe: pjb: the original question was about using modular arithmetic and its performance, since that's all what C and C++ are capable of unless one uses a bignum library, and your answer was about bignums, which do *not* use modular arithmetic, and therefore your bignum answer did not apply to it.
2020-06-11T16:50:21Z phoe: pjb: you have to be an idiot not to see it.
2020-06-11T16:51:08Z jackdaniel: please stop calling each other idiots (even in a hypothetical form)
2020-06-11T16:51:15Z pjb: phoe: most modular arithemetic is used in cryptography, on numbers bigger than a long long.
2020-06-11T16:51:34Z phoe disengages
2020-06-11T16:51:49Z pjb: In accounting programs, int are not used for their modular arithmetic.
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2020-06-11T17:55:35Z enedil: Hey
2020-06-11T17:55:58Z enedil: Why does this return (3 4) in sbcl?
2020-06-11T17:56:01Z enedil: (let (l (list 2)) (pushnew 4 l) (pushnew 3 l) l)
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2020-06-11T17:56:34Z enedil: In particular, what happens with the 2?
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2020-06-11T17:57:03Z enedil: Maybe that's not readable: version with renamed variable:
2020-06-11T17:57:03Z enedil: (let (my-list (list 2)) (pushnew 4 my-list) (pushnew 3 my-list) my-list)
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2020-06-11T17:58:18Z Bike: you probably mean (let ((l (list 2))) ...)
2020-06-11T17:58:30Z Bike: (let (l (list 2)) ...) binds L to nil, and LIST to 2
2020-06-11T17:58:58Z enedil: oh, damn, you're right
2020-06-11T17:59:10Z enedil: why isn't that an error?
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2020-06-11T17:59:31Z enedil: It would be useful not to allow implicit binding to NIL
2020-06-11T17:59:43Z Bike: it's a shorthand syntax.
2020-06-11T18:00:00Z reb: It's in the language specification and occurs in real programs.
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2020-06-11T18:00:35Z enedil: I'll take your word, I don't have much experience programming in lisp
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2020-06-11T18:03:57Z phoe: enedil: that's what allows one to write (let (x) ...)
2020-06-11T18:04:07Z phoe: it's equivalent to (let ((x nil)) ...)
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2020-06-11T18:05:17Z enedil: oh, cool, in fact that's useful for me right now :p
2020-06-11T18:06:39Z _death: it's useful if you want to program FORTRAN in Lisp.. though there are better options like prog and &aux
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2020-06-11T18:10:26Z kinope: ooh, I like that
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2020-06-11T18:12:11Z enedil: I mean, I would try to understand id better, but now I'm writing for code to pass my class, due to covid we had "remote classes" - consultations by email, so now, I'm trying to make some code that works. My go-to functional language is OCaml and it wouldn't like this kind of solution too
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2020-06-11T18:12:56Z dlowe: I usually only use the bare let variable clause when I intend to setf it
2020-06-11T18:13:08Z dlowe: (let (x) ... (setf x (blahblah)))
2020-06-11T18:13:58Z dlowe: but that's more personal idiosyncrasy
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2020-06-11T19:19:33Z Xach: dlowe: i use that form in COND sometimes
2020-06-11T19:20:06Z Xach: like (cond ((setf result (blah ...)) <use result>) ...))))
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2020-06-11T20:39:02Z pjb: dlowe: I prefer to use let rather than setf: (cond ((let ((result (compute-result))) (do-something-with result) result)) …) ; not the empty body.
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2020-06-12T03:17:17Z seok: Hello!
2020-06-12T03:17:42Z seok: Why is pgloader so popular on github?
2020-06-12T03:17:59Z seok: All it does is migrate to postgres from another db?
2020-06-12T03:20:37Z no-defun-allowed: Lots of people want to do that, I suppose.
2020-06-12T03:23:03Z seok: Guess so
2020-06-12T03:23:12Z seok: It is second most popular CL repo
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2020-06-12T03:40:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-12T03:54:16Z seok: morning professor beach
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2020-06-12T04:19:36Z iissaacc: sup g
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2020-06-12T05:45:46Z Shinmera: seok: "all it does" is pretty dismissive of the amount of work involved in actually doing so.
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2020-06-12T05:57:46Z seok: Shinmera true that. I just expected a more general library to have the silver medal
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2020-06-12T05:59:04Z Shinmera: libraries aren't interesting to people outside of those using the language
2020-06-12T05:59:07Z Shinmera: applications are
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2020-06-12T06:36:15Z phoe: seok: postgres is popular as hel
2020-06-12T06:36:23Z phoe: and people want to migrate to postgres because of that
2020-06-12T06:36:25Z phoe: sooooooo
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2020-06-12T06:44:46Z ldb: hello
2020-06-12T06:45:20Z beach: Hello ldb.
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2020-06-12T07:23:23Z scymtym: this SBCL commit https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/commit/ab976f48db4ba8d72fb7bc13388bc4fc6e97c0fd will break named-readtable here https://github.com/melisgl/named-readtables/blob/master/src/cruft.lisp#L166
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2020-06-12T07:52:21Z pve: Good morning! Is there a tutorial somewhere on how to define new asdf component types (specifically modules)? Something a bit more detailed than what's in the manual..
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2020-06-12T07:56:51Z pve: I'm going to have a directory containing some source files and a custom loader that knows how to compile and load them. So now I'd like to tell asdf about the custom loader.
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2020-06-12T08:01:19Z easye: pve:  unfortunately there is no good tutorial to extending ASDF that I know of:  I learned about ASDF from copying what others had done, and studying the ASDF source code.
2020-06-12T08:02:24Z easye: <https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/abcl/abcl/-/blob/master/contrib/abcl-asdf/abcl-asdf.lisp> extends ASDF to understand :mvn components, and might be interesting.
2020-06-12T08:03:03Z easye: There is an extension for ASDF for dealing with Parenscript artifacts somewhere that might be a conceptually a little more in line what you want to do.
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2020-06-12T08:06:39Z easye: A reasonable strategy to search for examples would be to examine Quicklisp systems that end in "-asdf" as these are usually ASDF extensions.
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2020-06-12T08:10:12Z pve: easye: thanks, that looks great
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2020-06-12T08:11:53Z pve: I'll try to find some systems with examples
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2020-06-12T08:16:19Z nicktick: how to define a function (compose f g)  which could be used as (funcall (compose #'char-upcase #'code-char) 100) ?
2020-06-12T08:17:32Z no-defun-allowed: (defun compose (f g) (lambda (x) (funcall f (funcall g x))))?
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2020-06-12T08:17:43Z no-defun-allowed: or #'alexandria:compose
2020-06-12T08:17:55Z Harag: finally got sbcl and woo to work on "google cloud run" using buildapp to get around the HOME switching (/root to /home) that the "google cloud run" is doing on CMD command
2020-06-12T08:18:12Z nicktick: no-defun-allowed: thx
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2020-06-12T08:20:24Z McParen: hello
2020-06-12T08:20:35Z beach: Hello McParen.
2020-06-12T08:21:13Z no-defun-allowed: nicktick: ywlcm
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2020-06-12T08:21:34Z beach: Heh.
2020-06-12T08:21:49Z no-defun-allowed: I should probably pick my own shortening.
2020-06-12T08:21:59Z McParen: if I define a function A, then define an alias B using (setf (fdefinition 'B) #'A), I get warnings when trying to use that new alias immediately when defining the next function.
2020-06-12T08:22:25Z beach: Probably because they are in the same file and you compile that file.
2020-06-12T08:22:26Z McParen: is the defun and the immediately following setf not defined at the same stage?
2020-06-12T08:22:42Z no-defun-allowed: I think so.
2020-06-12T08:22:50Z phoe: McParen: yes, that is the case
2020-06-12T08:22:54Z McParen: yes, they are in the same file. i figured out that i have to use an eval-when, but i dont really understand why
2020-06-12T08:22:58Z nicktick: why don't use (defun compose (f g x)   (funcall f (funcall g x)))  and (funcall #'compose #'char-upcase #'code-char 100) ? the result is the same as (defun compose (f g) (lambda (x) (funcall f (funcall g x))))  and (funcall (compose #'char-upcase #'code-char) 100).
2020-06-12T08:23:11Z beach: McParen: Top-level forms in a file are executed when the file is loaded, but you get the warning when the call is compiled.
2020-06-12T08:23:15Z no-defun-allowed: Try (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (setf (fdefinition 'b) #'a))?
2020-06-12T08:23:28Z no-defun-allowed: nicktick: Because the former doesn't really perform composition, but the latter does.
2020-06-12T08:24:01Z McParen: no-defun-allowed: i have already figured that out, but dont really understand why. are the defun and setf not evaluated at the same time?
2020-06-12T08:24:09Z no-defun-allowed: If o is your composition symbol, then (f o g)(x) = f(g(x))
2020-06-12T08:24:19Z beach: McParen: Did you see my suggestion?
2020-06-12T08:24:39Z McParen: yes
2020-06-12T08:24:48Z no-defun-allowed: I think the compiler gets function binding information at compile time, and the SETF isn't done at compile time; but I'm not very well versed on those.
2020-06-12T08:25:26Z beach: McParen: What no-defun-allowed said.  You get the warning when the file is compiled, and then the DEFUN and the SETF have not been executed yet.
2020-06-12T08:25:26Z McParen: beach: oh, I understand now.
2020-06-12T08:25:41Z McParen: ok, i needed a second to understand what you said.
2020-06-12T08:27:14Z beach: If this is SBCL, at compile time, it checks whether the function being referred to exists, and if not, gives a warning.  But the standard says that the definitions do not happen until the compiled code is loaded.  And that includes other top-level forms like (SETF ...).
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2020-06-12T08:28:50Z beach: Now, for the first top-level DEFUN, the SBCL compiler makes a note that it WILL EXIST at load time and doesn't emit any warning.  But the (SETF (FDEFINITION ....)) does not result in such a note being made.
2020-06-12T08:30:17Z McParen: thanks, that makes sense, the function using the alias had no runtime errors, it was a compile time warning by sbcl.
2020-06-12T08:30:56Z beach: No problem.  Glad my explanation made sense.
2020-06-12T08:31:37Z beach: McParen: I suggest you read the Common Lisp HyperSpec page on DEFUN.  It can be instructive.
2020-06-12T08:32:20Z no-defun-allowed: nicktick: Now, if I was to rearrange that, we get our definition of COMPOSE: f o g = λx . f(g(x))
2020-06-12T08:32:29Z nicktick: I can write function (compose f g x) == f(g(x)),but it's not (compose f g)(x) == f(g(x)) , so I should use a lambda function to define (compose f g)(x). is it right ?
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2020-06-12T08:32:48Z beach: McParen: "In particular, DEFUN does not make the function definition available at compile time."
2020-06-12T08:33:27Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, you need to return a function of one argument that calls g with the argument, then f with the value of that.
2020-06-12T08:33:49Z beach: nicktick: You don't want the ultimate argument to be part of the composition.  You want the composition to work for any argument.
2020-06-12T08:35:22Z no-defun-allowed: The Alexandria implementation allows for an arbitrary number of arguments, and an arbitrary number of functions to be composed, but in the case of one argument and two functions to compose, it is basically the definition I gave.
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2020-06-12T11:42:12Z Xach: |3b|: fyi http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-06-12/failure-report/3b-hdr.html#3b-hdr_test
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2020-06-12T12:28:32Z |3b|: Xach: thanks, will fix that soon
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2020-06-12T12:42:43Z flip214: COMPILE returns multiple values, for warnings etc. Is there a way to get these as conditions?
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2020-06-12T12:46:17Z |3b|: hmm, steamvr added beta openxr support on windows, but supports d3d11 or vulkan :/
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2020-06-12T12:48:05Z |3b|: guess i could try using just enough d3d or vk to talk to that and do the rendering in GL, assuming they haven't added it by the time i get back to VR coding
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2020-06-12T13:35:37Z gendl: overslept.
2020-06-12T13:35:56Z gendl: missed yoga this morning for the first time in like a month.
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2020-06-12T14:34:36Z Josh_2: Afternoon all
2020-06-12T14:35:30Z Josh_2: Chapter 6 of Let Over Λ might as well have been in French
2020-06-12T14:35:48Z Josh_2: 6.7 especially
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2020-06-12T14:45:51Z pjb: Josh_2: what do you mean? Any book can be translated to (almost) any language.
2020-06-12T14:46:01Z Josh_2: pjb: it was a joke about how I didn't understand a word
2020-06-12T14:46:53Z dlowe: "it's French to me" = "c'est Chinois a moi"
2020-06-12T14:47:36Z pjb: C'est du chinois pour mois.
2020-06-12T14:47:38Z pjb: C'est du chinois pour moi.
2020-06-12T14:48:52Z pjb: But for an English speaking person, it's strange to say it's French, since English is the most latin german language, and French is the most german latin language.  Basically English and French are the same, only English got the pronounciation all wrong.
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2020-06-12T14:51:52Z pjb: You could say it's heptapod language to you. :-)  https://www.wired.com/2016/11/arrivals-designers-crafted-mesmerizing-alien-alphabet/
2020-06-12T14:52:12Z Josh_2: I could say it was Italian to me
2020-06-12T14:52:42Z Josh_2: But in England, if we don't understand something we claim it is French xD
2020-06-12T14:52:51Z Josh_2: A bit of historic banter
2020-06-12T14:53:00Z shinohai: It's clojure to me.
2020-06-12T14:53:05Z Josh_2: xD
2020-06-12T14:53:37Z dlowe: "it's Greek to me" is a more common idiom
2020-06-12T14:53:44Z Josh_2: not in England it isn't
2020-06-12T14:54:31Z pjb: or I guess in Germany, they're helenophiles.
2020-06-12T14:54:45Z pjb: "It's Hebrew to me" is classic…
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2020-06-12T14:57:48Z dlowe: topic is off the rails :)
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2020-06-12T15:15:37Z pjb: rails is off topic here.
2020-06-12T15:16:51Z Lycurgus and off it's peak by some year fortunately
2020-06-12T15:17:01Z Lycurgus *years
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2020-06-12T15:37:24Z Josh_2: With the MOP could I create a superclass that creates a lock for each slot within my class?
2020-06-12T15:37:44Z Josh_2: and then when you access one of these slots the lock is grabbed first?
2020-06-12T15:37:47Z phoe: I think so, yes
2020-06-12T15:37:49Z Bike: sure.
2020-06-12T15:38:10Z Josh_2: perhaps using the reader I could determine whether atomic operations could be used instead
2020-06-12T15:38:27Z Josh_2: I guess this is how Clojure has achieved "lockless" threading
2020-06-12T15:38:35Z Josh_2: you don't have to manually manage locks etc
2020-06-12T15:39:02Z Josh_2: I would have to learn more about the MOP first
2020-06-12T15:39:05Z Bike: i mean, some algorithms still require locks
2020-06-12T15:39:28Z phoe: you can create custom slot classes, create a custom metaclass to generate the locks, and modify the slot access protocol on the custom slots to perform (with-lock-held (...) (call-next-method))
2020-06-12T15:39:30Z pjb: Josh_2: AFAIK, this lock would only work around slot-value.  This design would probably be very defective when you use other accessors.
2020-06-12T15:39:36Z Bike: oh, right, but clojure is jvm, so every object already has a lock
2020-06-12T15:39:46Z Josh_2: Bike: ah
2020-06-12T15:39:56Z pjb: Josh_2: check the notion of monitor provided in some other programming languages.
2020-06-12T15:40:12Z Josh_2: pjb: well couldn't I override the default accessors?
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2020-06-12T15:40:47Z phoe: don't the default reader/writer methods call SLOT-VALUE though?
2020-06-12T15:40:53Z Josh_2: hmm
2020-06-12T15:41:03Z phoe: if they do, then custom methods on SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS will have a chance to be invoked
2020-06-12T15:41:16Z pjb: Josh_2: probably, but specifically in the cases where it becomes difficult, it's the programmer who writes the accessor.
2020-06-12T15:41:19Z phoe: and the rest of the slot access protocol
2020-06-12T15:41:48Z Bike: yes, the slot accesosrs go through slot-value-using-class, or act like they do
2020-06-12T15:42:41Z Josh_2: I use locks quite a lot and It's a bit of a pita, so something like this is certainly a future project idea
2020-06-12T15:42:57Z Bike: 7.5.2, "Reader and writer methods are implemented using slot-value. "
2020-06-12T15:43:17Z phoe: perfect
2020-06-12T15:43:25Z phoe: then the MOP approach will cover everything.
2020-06-12T15:43:36Z Josh_2: okay awesome :)
2020-06-12T15:43:39Z Bike: otherwise you couldn't practically define slot access behavior
2020-06-12T15:45:06Z Josh_2: This sounds like a good project for experimenting with the MOP
2020-06-12T15:45:14Z pjb: (defclass bank-accound () ((balance :initform 0)) (movements :initform '()))   (defmethod deposit (b a) (incf (slot-value b 'balance) a) (push `(deposit ,a) (slot-value b 'movmements)))  (defmethod movements (b) (decf +get-movements-fee+ (slot-value b 'balance)) (copy-list (slot-value b 'movements)))
2020-06-12T15:45:27Z pjb: Josh_2: Basically, your lock is useless ^
2020-06-12T15:46:29Z Josh_2: well if I can't change the default behaviour of (slot-value ..) with this class then I'll just say "don't use slot-value" xD
2020-06-12T15:51:13Z Bike: you can change what slot-value does. i think pjb is attempting to describe the classic bank account problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurrent_computing#Coordinating_access_to_shared_resources
2020-06-12T15:51:31Z Bike: in which locking around individual accesses to the quantities is not sufficient to ensure correct behavior
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2020-06-12T15:56:35Z aeth: Don't name your slots the same as their accessors. I always prefix them with %, e.g. (%foo :accessor foo :initform 42)
2020-06-12T15:56:42Z aeth: Then if someone still messes with them, it's their fault.
2020-06-12T15:57:02Z Josh_2: ^ I like that idea
2020-06-12T15:57:46Z aeth: But you can do more, e.g. I guard the setting of slot-value (mainly so I can cover both the initial set and the later accessors) with https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zr-utils/-/blob/master/metaobject.lisp
2020-06-12T16:04:54Z aeth: Your situation would require more, though, since all I'm trying to do with my MOP manipulation is ensure that the type remains unchanged so that I only have to typecheck once. (I came up with my system because I kept getting random NILs and they're particularly annoying in a game engine since they freeze the whole thing and they're never where the NIL was produced.)
2020-06-12T16:05:52Z Josh_2: hmm alright
2020-06-12T16:06:24Z Josh_2: you make use of (setf slot-value-using-class) so thats an example I could use
2020-06-12T16:06:27Z aeth: You are probably going to end up having to write custom sequences if you want to guarantee locking and you use sequences.
2020-06-12T16:06:48Z aeth: https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-extensible-sequences/
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2020-06-12T16:34:35Z pjb: Bike: well, the classic bank account transfer operation involves two bank account objects.  My example is worse: it's a single operation on a single object, but it involves two slots.
2020-06-12T16:34:57Z pjb: Monitors don't put locks around slot-value or accessors, but around all the methods of the object.
2020-06-12T16:35:31Z pjb: My example would be solved by monitors.  The classic bank account transfer operation wouldn't be solved by monitors.  This is probably why monitors are not in widespread use.
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2020-06-12T18:35:53Z seok: I am finally moving from portacle to configuring emacs myself
2020-06-12T18:36:08Z seok: Is there a guide somewhere for a list of essential/useful packages for CL editing?
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2020-06-12T18:46:03Z Shinmera: you could read the portacle emacs config
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2020-06-12T19:14:43Z edgar-rft: seok: I think the minimum is 1) lisp-mode (comes with Emacs), 2) Slime for the communication with the external Lisp process, and 3) Quicklisp on the CL side, everything else is optional.
2020-06-12T19:15:47Z SAL9000: seok: I'd also recommend smartparens or paredit (portacle comes with the latter)
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2020-06-12T19:17:12Z seok: Shinmera I've been looking for it
2020-06-12T19:17:28Z seok: Haven't found it yet tho
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2020-06-12T19:17:40Z seok: edgar-rft SAL9000 is that it?
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2020-06-12T19:23:36Z White_Flame: my installation steps are typically emacs, then quicklisp, then https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-slime-helper
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2020-06-12T19:23:52Z White_Flame: plus copying ye olde mudball .emacs file of yore :-P
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2020-06-12T19:24:37Z White_Flame: is parinfer supported with slime?
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2020-06-12T19:24:56Z White_Flame: last time I tried it, it was completely bonkers on the repl
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2020-06-12T19:35:52Z mrcom: seok: Other useful packages: company, ethan-wspace, hungry-delete. If using sly: sly-company, sly-quicklisp.
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2020-06-12T19:42:44Z mrcom: seok: Other useful cemacs.d tweaks: cua settings (enabling/disabling Windows/Mac style cut/paste/delete); indent-tabs-mode; mouse-whell-scroll-amount; toggle-comment-on-line; recentf-save-file. If using ethan-wspace: (setq mode-require-final-newline nil)
2020-06-12T19:43:25Z mrcom: s/cemads.d/emacs.d
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2020-06-12T19:47:23Z mrcom: seok: Slime stuff I had enabled before switched to sly: (setq slime-contribs '(slime-editing-commands slime-typeout-frame slime-fancy-inspector slime-repl slime-trace-dialog slime-sprof slime-scratch slime-presentations slime-c-p-c slime-xref-browser slime-autodoc slime-references inferior-slime slime-asdf))
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2020-06-12T19:55:36Z mrcom: seok: (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) (setq slime-scratch-file "~/.slime-scratch") (setq slime-autodoc-use-multiline-p t)
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2020-06-12T21:33:28Z seok: thank you all
2020-06-12T21:33:31Z seok: thank you all
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2020-06-13T00:23:09Z kinope: In reference to my previous question about logand or mod being performant. I think I get it now, It's not a question of if they are as performant as C/C++. But of how much flexibility I want to trade for the performance. I sometimes forget that a C compiler and a Lisp compiler (some implementations) both generate native code. So in the end it's possible for computation written in CL to be just as performant, given a
2020-06-13T00:23:09Z kinope: sufficiently capable compiler AND the required declarations so that it may produce the intended result. Am I off the mark?
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2020-06-13T00:35:20Z White_Flame: kinope: if the CL compiler knows that the operands fit in a machine word, you can expect it to be as fast as C
2020-06-13T00:35:53Z White_Flame: (well, is a fixnum specifically, which also implies integer)
2020-06-13T00:36:09Z White_Flame: (and some can do untagged full-width machine words, too)
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2020-06-13T00:51:21Z pjb: kinope: you're correct if you are thinking in terms of generated code.  (Note that even in the case of C, it's really not obvious what the generated code will be.  It is said that C was designed so that it may compile to simple (PDP-7/PDP-11) instructions, but this was in 1969.  C17 is quite different, but foremost, the processors used today are very different.
2020-06-13T00:51:45Z pjb: kinope: so the mapping of the semantics of operators to current processors is not obvious, even for C.
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2020-06-13T00:53:10Z pjb: kinope: and if you compare directly CL to C, the semantics are very different, even if in apparence, there may be direct translations between C and lisp (à-la rosetta stone).
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2020-06-13T01:11:00Z kinope: Ah okay thanks pjb White_Flame
2020-06-13T01:15:30Z Pixel_Outlaw: pjb Any insight on the cost of trashing and reassignment in CL vs mutation? I bet it's a bit more anticipated in Schemes.
2020-06-13T01:18:05Z pjb: Pixel_Outlaw: you would have to write CL compiler writers.
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2020-06-13T01:24:25Z mrcom: kinope: Here's what SBCL generates: (disassemble (locally (declare (optimize (safety 0) (speed 3))) (defun foo (a b) (declare (type fixnum a b)) (logand a b))))
2020-06-13T01:25:15Z mrcom: ; disassembly for FOO
2020-06-13T01:25:15Z mrcom: ; Size: 9 bytes. Origin: #x22C6D0D6                           ; FOO
2020-06-13T01:25:15Z mrcom: ; 6:       4821FA           AND RDX, RDI
2020-06-13T01:25:15Z mrcom: ; 9:       488BE5           MOV RSP, RBP
2020-06-13T01:25:15Z mrcom: ; C:       F8               CLC
2020-06-13T01:25:16Z mrcom: ; D:       5D               POP RBP
2020-06-13T01:25:18Z mrcom: ; E:       C3               RET
2020-06-13T01:26:15Z White_Flame: and of course the last 4 lines are function epilogue
2020-06-13T01:27:30Z White_Flame: Pixel_Outlaw: conses tend to be the cheapest things to allocate, as it's just the 2 cells and no other storage overhead
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2020-06-13T01:39:57Z White_Flame: Pixel_Outlaw: I think in every language, mutation will always be faster to execute for the mainline case.  There's simply less related work to do
2020-06-13T01:40:09Z lottaquestions: how does one know if the original element obtained by rest from a list was an atom or a list?
2020-06-13T01:40:32Z White_Flame: LISTP, ATOM, NULL etc
2020-06-13T01:40:47Z lottaquestions: rest always returns a list
2020-06-13T01:40:54Z White_Flame: not for a dotted list
2020-06-13T01:41:16Z White_Flame: REST is just an alias for CDR
2020-06-13T01:41:31Z White_Flame: a direct slot accessor, doesn't do any funny business, except maybe with NIL
2020-06-13T01:44:01Z kinope: pjb: Do semantics differ between CL implementations also? I'm thinking of ecl and how it compiles to C, must one then think in terms of C's semantics when writting optimised code for ecl.
2020-06-13T01:44:37Z White_Flame: certainly byte-coded implementations will have significantly different performance characteristics than native compiled ones
2020-06-13T01:44:44Z White_Flame: and some compilers are smarter than others
2020-06-13T01:44:54Z White_Flame: DISASSEMBLE is your friend
2020-06-13T01:45:08Z pjb: kinope: the CL standard indeed let some things undefined, up to the CL implementation. But conforming programs run in conforming implementation have a very specific semantic.
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2020-06-13T01:46:14Z lottaquestions: @White_Flame: checkout this function and the results I get, it explains my conundrum: https://pastebin.com/BrekMZWu
2020-06-13T01:46:57Z White_Flame: kinope: basically, if something claims to be "Common Lisp", then it should follow the exact same specified semantics.  But other non-CL Lisps can do whatever they want to mold to their environment to make them a lighter layer
2020-06-13T01:47:03Z lottaquestions: it is my attempt at solving exercise 1.4 in paip
2020-06-13T01:48:03Z lottaquestions: because I use rest, an atom is transformed into a list, and I get a match against the second a
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2020-06-13T01:48:18Z White_Flame: (rest '(1 . 2)) => 2
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2020-06-13T01:48:40Z pjb: On the other hand: (rest '(1 2)) #| --> (2) |#
2020-06-13T01:49:00Z White_Flame: right, but any atom in a cdr place will not be transformed into a list
2020-06-13T01:49:20Z pjb: lottaquestions: so what will it be? Do you consider cons cells or proper-lists? What about dotted-lists?
2020-06-13T01:50:19Z lottaquestions: I didn't think that far, I was considering only proper-lists.
2020-06-13T01:50:38Z White_Flame: but surely, no transformation is taking place
2020-06-13T01:50:40Z kinope: Okay, so the semantics should stay constant, but the performance characteristics will change depending on where the implementation sits on the stack of abstractions (on a virtual machine, or on top of C runtime)
2020-06-13T01:50:47Z White_Flame: given plain lists, REST is returning the rest of the list, which is a list
2020-06-13T01:51:03Z pjb: lottaquestions: in this kind of functions, you could also want to specify what occurs for vectors and arrays, and perhaps other structures.
2020-06-13T01:51:14Z pjb: (hash-tables, structures, objects, etc).
2020-06-13T01:51:22Z White_Flame: kinope: the CL spec is considered quite well specified as far as ensuring semantics goes.  Decades-old code still runs
2020-06-13T01:51:34Z pjb: (count-anywhere '(a) '(a #((a) b) a))
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2020-06-13T01:52:01Z pjb: kinope: exactly.
2020-06-13T01:52:08Z lottaquestions: pjb: got it
2020-06-13T01:52:38Z pjb: lottaquestions: you're using first/rest which is ok for a proper-list, but then you're comparing search-expr with the whole-list-of-expr that you have named whole-expr.
2020-06-13T01:52:54Z pjb: lottaquestions: you should only compare with (first whole-list-of-expr).
2020-06-13T01:53:18Z White_Flame: lottaquestions: btw, (let ((func (lambda ...)) (funcall func ...)) should be replaced with:
2020-06-13T01:53:29Z White_Flame: (labels ((func (params) body)) ... (func ...))
2020-06-13T01:53:34Z lottaquestions: pjb: Got it
2020-06-13T01:53:39Z White_Flame: it's a much more natural representation for local functions
2020-06-13T01:54:17Z lottaquestions: White_Flame: Thanks. I struggled with that one. Especially since I didn't fully understand the difference between a lisp-1 and a lisp-2
2020-06-13T01:54:27Z lottaquestions: I'm still learning :-)
2020-06-13T01:54:55Z White_Flame: yep, and #clschool might be more appropriate then, as here you'll usually get "very complete" answers with minutia that isn't the best for beginner learning
2020-06-13T01:55:17Z lottaquestions: I don't mind the minutae
2020-06-13T01:55:29Z lottaquestions: but thanks for letting me know there is clschool
2020-06-13T01:56:06Z kinope: Got to run, but thanks for the information. mrcom pjb White_Flame
2020-06-13T01:56:53Z White_Flame: lottaquestions: your count-adder should be recursive itself, with a single RESULT binding outside that function.  A simple incf result inside count-adder will make things easy
2020-06-13T01:57:24Z White_Flame: and LABELS exposes the function name in a way that allows that recursion
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2020-06-13T02:05:40Z seok: how do I get the current working directory?
2020-06-13T02:12:45Z pjb: seok: this is a POSIX notion.  This is out of the scope of the CL specification.
2020-06-13T02:13:16Z pjb: seok: CL has a *default-pathname-defaults* which is bound to a pathname designator, which may contain some directory component (but also other components).
2020-06-13T02:13:43Z pjb: seok: and of course, there are extensions in CL implementations running on POSIX systems…
2020-06-13T02:13:58Z fe[nl]ix: pjb: stop with this nonsense
2020-06-13T02:14:50Z fe[nl]ix: seok: on SBCL there's (sb-posix:getcwd)
2020-06-13T02:15:10Z pjb: fe[nl]ix: this is fucking not fucking #sbcl !
2020-06-13T02:15:12Z pjb: seok:  you may try: (uiop/os:getcwd) but only on CL implementation running on POSIX systems that have some posix extension
2020-06-13T02:16:16Z fe[nl]ix has set mode +b *!~t@*.wanadoo.fr
2020-06-13T02:16:16Z pjb [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (pjb)
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2020-06-13T02:28:47Z xristos: fe[nl]ix: why did you ban?
2020-06-13T02:31:03Z xristos: i try not to waste time with irc drama, but pjb has given me good advice in the past, and i don't see why a ban is merited here?
2020-06-13T02:32:26Z no-defun-allowed: He is quite aggressive.
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2020-06-13T02:35:13Z seok: answer for sbcl is reasonable since most new lispers use sbcl anyway
2020-06-13T02:35:32Z seok: pjb is helpful a lot of the times tho
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2020-06-13T02:38:07Z xristos: for the record i don't agree with this ban, he's spending his personal time here to help others, i've gotten useful advice from pjb, him mentioning POSIX is informative, i don't see why he should be banned
2020-06-13T02:38:19Z xristos: if this is what #lisp has devolved to, then it's time for me to go elsewhere
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2020-06-13T02:39:06Z no-defun-allowed: In #clschool he accused me of only talking "degenerate" stuff and not about Common Lisp, and we generally haven't gotten along well.
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2020-06-13T02:41:06Z seok: The aggression was unacceptable, perhaps a warning is more suffice?
2020-06-13T02:41:39Z PuercoPop: banining someone for a period of time _is_ a warning
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2020-06-13T02:42:18Z seok: Ah it's not permanent?
2020-06-13T02:42:24Z PuercoPop: we don't know
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2020-06-13T02:42:56Z PuercoPop: But I would think not. pjb has been giving unhelpful answers here for more than a decade
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2020-06-13T02:45:44Z xristos: PuercoPop: i see plenty of folks thanking pjb
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2020-06-13T03:22:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-13T03:27:24Z potta_coffee: Hello
2020-06-13T03:28:29Z potta_coffee: question, anyone here use an editor other than Emacs?
2020-06-13T03:36:13Z beach: Some people appear to use VIM.
2020-06-13T03:37:45Z potta_coffee: I've been using Dr Racket to write Scheme for a while, and I use Sublime at work, I want to write Common Lisp now but nothing really seems to be satisfactory. It looks like Emacs is supposed to be the answer but
2020-06-13T03:38:02Z potta_coffee: I'm not going to spend time learning Emacs just to dabble with Lisp
2020-06-13T03:38:19Z beach: Sorry to hear that.  Emacs is great for many other things as well.
2020-06-13T03:39:01Z potta_coffee: It seems like it's really powerful, lots of features. Just a lot of time investment for me when I really just want to bang out some code
2020-06-13T03:39:24Z beach: Emacs with SLIME is currently the best development environment we can propose for using FLOSS Common Lisp implementations.
2020-06-13T03:39:30Z potta_coffee: Just thought I'd ask here and see if anyone is successfully using any alternatives
2020-06-13T03:40:00Z beach: So you don't really plan to learn Common Lisp?  Just "bang out some code" and be done with it?
2020-06-13T03:40:16Z White_Flame: emacs is just an editor, and only a few keystrokes to do the lisp integration is required to learn
2020-06-13T03:40:24Z White_Flame: there are 1-page cheatsheets with everything you need
2020-06-13T03:40:40Z White_Flame: I'm no fan of emacs and use it because it's the best lisp environment; you don' thave to go deep with emacs at all
2020-06-13T03:42:08Z potta_coffee: beach, quick iteration and trying things out is an effective way for me to learn, the Emacs shortcuts are foreign to me and get in the way when all I want to do is experiment with a language
2020-06-13T03:42:23Z beach: I see.
2020-06-13T03:43:18Z potta_coffee: Anyway...just wanted to see if anyone uses an alternative that I haven't heard of before I decide if I'm just going to invest in messing with Emacs
2020-06-13T03:43:43Z beach: potta_coffee: Here is one piece of information that may help you decide: If you choose an editor that is not able to indent your code properly, then you are going to waste more of your time than it takes to learn Emacs.
2020-06-13T03:43:49Z beach: Worse, you are going to have strange bugs and when you show the code here in order to get help, you are going to waste the time of others as well, because you are going to force them to count parentheses in badly indented code.
2020-06-13T03:43:50Z White_Flame: beyond emacs, there is VI integration.  There's some level of integration with eclipse and atom, I think
2020-06-13T03:44:19Z potta_coffee: White_Flame: Thanks
2020-06-13T03:44:35Z White_Flame: by "some level" expect the level of "an attempt to port was made"
2020-06-13T03:44:55Z potta_coffee: haha thank you
2020-06-13T03:45:18Z White_Flame: obviously, you could just use any text editor and manually load from the REPL if you want :-P
2020-06-13T03:45:22Z Oladon: potta_coffee: Another thing for you to consider is that there is no such thing as a language in isolation.
2020-06-13T03:45:34Z White_Flame: but the immediate interactivity is one fo the best features
2020-06-13T03:45:40Z potta_coffee: Yeah
2020-06-13T03:45:48Z potta_coffee: interactivity is the appeal
2020-06-13T03:45:57Z White_Flame: and that interactivity requires support
2020-06-13T03:46:09Z White_Flame: so, you go where the support is :shrug:
2020-06-13T03:46:14Z potta_coffee: I have a heck of a hard time remembering keyboard shortcuts
2020-06-13T03:46:16Z Oladon: potta_coffee: A language in use (as opposed to in theory) inherits much, good (and bad for languages other than Lisp) from its community, and the community is made up of users with conventions
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2020-06-13T03:46:51Z potta_coffee: Oladon: and Emacs is a convention of the community?
2020-06-13T03:47:18Z Oladon: I don't know that I'd call it a convention, but it's certainly a... tradition? Expectation? It's become the most common editor for real reasons.
2020-06-13T03:47:25Z White_Flame: alt-p to get the previous line of the repl, and ^c ^k to reload a .lisp file into the REPL.  Those are the only 2 shortcuts you need
2020-06-13T03:47:28Z Oladon: My challenge to you is not to dismiss those reasons, but rather to ask yourself what they are.
2020-06-13T03:47:37Z White_Flame: and not even alt-p because you can just cursor back and hit enter, too
2020-06-13T03:47:45Z potta_coffee: White_Flame: Thanks
2020-06-13T03:47:58Z White_Flame: and recompilation is all available from the emacs menus, if you're averse to keystrokes in general
2020-06-13T03:48:03Z potta_coffee: ^ ->> what key does this denote
2020-06-13T03:48:06Z White_Flame: ctrl
2020-06-13T03:48:19Z potta_coffee: Thank you
2020-06-13T03:48:19Z White_Flame: C-c C-k in emacs-speak, ^C ^K elsewhere
2020-06-13T03:48:24Z potta_coffee: Ah
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2020-06-13T03:48:59Z potta_coffee: There look to be several flavors of Emcas
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2020-06-13T03:49:13Z beach: GNU Emacs is preferable.
2020-06-13T03:49:17Z potta_coffee: Is there a one that stands out?
2020-06-13T03:49:18Z White_Flame: xemacs is an older fork that iirc got reintegrated into mainline
2020-06-13T03:49:23Z White_Flame: just "emacs" works
2020-06-13T03:49:28Z White_Flame: but, if you're a new user to the ecosystem, get portacle
2020-06-13T03:49:36Z White_Flame: that's a "lisp in a box" so you don't have to config anything
2020-06-13T03:49:47Z potta_coffee: I have that
2020-06-13T03:49:50Z White_Flame: ah, k
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2020-06-13T03:50:27Z potta_coffee: Ok well, thanks for conversing with me
2020-06-13T03:50:38Z White_Flame: and here's a cheatsheet of commands, both general emacs & slime-specific: http://pchristensen.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/slimecommands.pdf
2020-06-13T03:51:00Z White_Flame: but, most of the major things should be discoverable from the menus, too
2020-06-13T03:51:05Z potta_coffee: Ok
2020-06-13T03:51:06Z potta_coffee: Thank you
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2020-06-13T03:51:18Z potta_coffee: Question, Portacle is not a flavor of Emacs
2020-06-13T03:51:24Z Oladon: Correct
2020-06-13T03:51:24Z potta_coffee: It contains an Emacs?
2020-06-13T03:51:36Z White_Flame: portacle is a bundling of emacs, slime, sbcl, and quicklisp
2020-06-13T03:51:42Z potta_coffee: Ok
2020-06-13T03:51:45Z White_Flame: (editor, IDE stuff, CL implementation, package downloader)
2020-06-13T03:52:00Z potta_coffee: So if I want all that outside of Portacle, I'd need to configure it
2020-06-13T03:52:11Z Oladon: It's pretty easy, but yes
2020-06-13T03:52:29Z White_Flame: beyond that, some people have extra emacs utilities, but nothing critical
2020-06-13T03:52:33Z potta_coffee: Part of what was scaring me away from Emacs, I started looking into it and was just stumbling into endless information about configuration and customization
2020-06-13T03:52:47Z White_Flame: "Emacs is a great OS, but its editor sucks" ;)
2020-06-13T03:52:48Z Oladon: potta_coffee: Hehe. Emacs is an excellent editor out of the box, so no need to worry about that yet.
2020-06-13T03:52:51Z potta_coffee: hahaa
2020-06-13T03:52:54Z Oladon: Also see above ;)
2020-06-13T03:53:07Z potta_coffee: Ok thanks for the info, I appreciate it
2020-06-13T03:53:12Z Oladon: The thing about Emacs, which you'll hopefully stick around long enough to discover, is that it's _fully_ customizable.
2020-06-13T03:53:12Z White_Flame: np
2020-06-13T03:53:16Z potta_coffee: Sorry for coming here and asking noob questions
2020-06-13T03:53:23Z seok: potta_coffe I'm on the same boat moving from portacle today
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2020-06-13T03:53:32Z seok: guys at #emacs have been very helpful
2020-06-13T03:53:33Z Oladon: potta_coffee: No apology necessary.
2020-06-13T03:53:50Z White_Flame: also #clschool is good for intro questions especially about the language
2020-06-13T03:54:00Z potta_coffee: Oladon: I have another editor, I customized heavily with lots of packages and settings, put my laptop away for a month and now I can't remember how to use it
2020-06-13T03:54:06Z Oladon: potta_coffee: Heh
2020-06-13T03:54:20Z Oladon: Emacs has an amazing built-in help system for that too ;)
2020-06-13T03:54:32Z potta_coffee: I'm decent at programming but I forget incidental stuff
2020-06-13T03:54:39Z Oladon: For example, there's a "what does this keyboard shortcut do?" feature
2020-06-13T03:54:56Z potta_coffee: Cool, ok
2020-06-13T03:55:07Z potta_coffee: I'll give it another go
2020-06-13T03:55:16Z Oladon: Have fun!
2020-06-13T03:55:20Z potta_coffee: TY
2020-06-13T03:55:35Z White_Flame: sometimes youtube videos can help, as they're more displaying the actual interactions
2020-06-13T03:56:31Z potta_coffee: I'll check that out
2020-06-13T03:57:18Z potta_coffee: So with Emacs
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2020-06-13T03:57:38Z potta_coffee: The REPL and the editor and integrated in a way
2020-06-13T03:58:01Z potta_coffee: Is it trivial to configure Emacs for several different languages and switch between those environments?
2020-06-13T03:58:18Z White_Flame: each buffer has its own language mode
2020-06-13T03:58:21Z seok: emacs detects the file
2020-06-13T03:58:24Z seok: automatically
2020-06-13T03:58:26Z potta_coffee: Say I want to write Scheme and Common Lisp
2020-06-13T03:58:29Z White_Flame: generally done via filename, but you can command it, too
2020-06-13T03:58:55Z seok: lisp-mode supports both scheme and CL I believe?
2020-06-13T03:58:55Z White_Flame: you can have multiple independent instances of SLIME going as well
2020-06-13T03:59:03Z White_Flame: in a singular emacs
2020-06-13T03:59:12Z potta_coffee: SLIME isn't language specific then?
2020-06-13T03:59:18Z White_Flame: slime is CL-specific
2020-06-13T03:59:27Z potta_coffee: Ok that's what I thought
2020-06-13T03:59:35Z White_Flame: it's what lets you jump to definitions of things, compile files/forms/etc into a running lisp session, etc
2020-06-13T03:59:45Z seok: SLIME is just a bridge for emacs to communicate with your CL implementation
2020-06-13T03:59:50Z potta_coffee: So I'd have to have something other than SLIME that lets me use other languages
2020-06-13T04:00:01Z seok: yes,
2020-06-13T04:00:07Z White_Flame: well, if by "use" you mean just syntax highlighting and such, many of those are built-in
2020-06-13T04:00:23Z White_Flame: if you mean live interaction with a running process, then yeah that's more the realm of SLIME
2020-06-13T04:00:29Z potta_coffee: Right
2020-06-13T04:00:30Z potta_coffee: ok
2020-06-13T04:00:59Z potta_coffee: Thank you
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2020-06-13T04:06:12Z terpri: well, mostly cl-specific; there was at one point slime support for scheme48, though it might be bitrotten by now
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2020-06-13T04:07:34Z potta_coffee: terpri: Thanks
2020-06-13T04:07:54Z terpri: it would be neat to have slime support for more lisp dialects. scheme has geiser which is pretty good, but slime is a lot more sophisticated
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2020-06-13T04:08:43Z potta_coffee: Ah geiser
2020-06-13T04:08:46Z potta_coffee: That's what it's called
2020-06-13T04:08:55Z terpri: for racket and guile, maybe other schemes
2020-06-13T04:08:56Z potta_coffee: I was looking for it and couldn't find
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2020-06-13T04:09:24Z potta_coffee: I saw that there's an integration for clojure
2020-06-13T04:10:21Z terpri: (someday there may be guile-cl, which would probably simplify slime integration considerably :))
2020-06-13T04:11:32Z potta_coffee: Cool, I've been using Chicken and guile supports it. I'll try it out later
2020-06-13T04:11:50Z potta_coffee: Sorry not guile, geiser
2020-06-13T04:11:52Z potta_coffee: doh
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2020-06-13T05:10:55Z ldb: https://dl.acm.org/toc/pacmpl/2020/4/HOPL
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2020-06-13T06:25:45Z bhartrihari: Hello, how do we address the problem of somebody pushing malware in an update to a package published on quicklisp (mainly Xach's dist)? It seems to me that currently the onus is on the user to check the various systems for potential malwares. Which could turn into a nightmare if the number of packages scale (and so could any code review to verify them). It seems that being able to depend strictly upon a
2020-06-13T06:25:45Z bhartrihari: particular version of a library, (which may be marked as reviewed or verified) might be of slight help in this regard.
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2020-06-13T06:30:34Z bhartrihari: s/package/system
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2020-06-13T06:31:39Z bhartrihari: By which I mean, the ability to pin a version of some library.
2020-06-13T06:32:11Z heisig: bhartrihari: Do other software ecosystems have a solution for that problem?  Thorough code reviews are hard, so I'd consider that impractical.
2020-06-13T06:32:24Z heisig: Pinning also means you pin bugs.
2020-06-13T06:33:27Z heisig: My approach is that I mostly use software from people that I trust.  (Where trust means 'I know where they live' :D)
2020-06-13T06:35:20Z bhartrihari: One could choose to apply patches over pinned repos for bugfix.
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2020-06-13T06:37:13Z bhartrihari: Or choose the commits to apply.
2020-06-13T06:37:40Z heisig: Quicklisp allows you to run your own dist, so that should be doable.
2020-06-13T06:38:09Z heisig: The more lightweight approach would be to place the project in question in ~/quicklisp/local-projects.
2020-06-13T06:39:41Z ldb: .
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2020-06-13T06:52:28Z bhartrihari: heisig: I understand that you are trying to give solutions for individual programmers, but I think we need some support for this in quicklisp. I can put certain versions in local-projects, but I need a way to share that information with the users of my libraries, having to setup a dist for that (I don't want to push this too far but there's very less documentation on how to do that) is too burdensome.
2020-06-13T06:55:05Z fe[nl]ix: bhartrihari: that's not how quicklisp works
2020-06-13T06:56:33Z fe[nl]ix: quicklisp works with distributions, which are package sets
2020-06-13T06:56:56Z fe[nl]ix: when you update a distribution, you update all the packages contained therein
2020-06-13T06:58:27Z fe[nl]ix: it's a curated publishing channel, so only the maintainer (Xach) can push there
2020-06-13T06:58:44Z fe[nl]ix: the model of npm, maven, etc... is that 1) each package has its own channel, and 2) the package author can push independently
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2020-06-13T07:00:18Z fe[nl]ix: in this model, the client that fetches packages has to resolve dependencies, and it's inevitable to end up with a 3-SAT problem a.k.a. dependency hell
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2020-06-13T07:01:21Z fe[nl]ix: bhartrihari: was that clear ?
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2020-06-13T07:08:29Z bhartrihari: I see. I should've been more precise about "pushing". I meant somebody pushing malicious code in their repo, and Xach pulling it in his dist, or ultralisp for that matter. So one is constrained to use the version of a library that was included in a certain distribution of Xach's dist? Can one choose which distribution to use?
2020-06-13T07:09:48Z fe[nl]ix: ultralisp is more like the "continuous stream" model, which is why I don't like it
2020-06-13T07:10:28Z bhartrihari: I would like it if there was some option to pin the version of a library. Then the continuous stream would make new versions available quickly.
2020-06-13T07:10:46Z fe[nl]ix: if you don't trust Xach, I suggest you simply fetch the sources, bundle them in your repository and review the code
2020-06-13T07:11:33Z bhartrihari: Qlot works to solve that afaik, though I haven't tried that.
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2020-06-13T07:14:49Z bhartrihari: It's not my personal problem fe[nl]ix. Everybody who uses any quicklisp dist is affected by it. I was merely trying to start a discussion on evaluating what can be done on the quicklisp side of things.
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2020-06-13T07:21:47Z bhartrihari: > Qlot works to solve that afaik, though I haven't tried that.
2020-06-13T07:21:47Z bhartrihari: Qlot works to solve the pinning of library versions I mean.
2020-06-13T07:25:12Z fe[nl]ix: I used to run QA and the CI env for a startup, and npm was a nightmare
2020-06-13T07:25:44Z fe[nl]ix: I first switched to pinning and flat dependencies, and just checked-in the pin file
2020-06-13T07:26:57Z fe[nl]ix: then people kept updating the pinned version every other day and causing more breakage, so I just checked-in the sources
2020-06-13T07:27:27Z fe[nl]ix: so basically I was the only one to use npm, maybe one a month
2020-06-13T07:27:29Z fe[nl]ix: problem solved
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2020-06-13T07:33:24Z ldb: sup
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2020-06-13T07:34:26Z bhartrihari: Maybe it works for bugs which break code in a more obvious manner. There's only so much one person can do.
2020-06-13T07:34:54Z Shinmera: bhartrihari: you can run your own dist that only publishes audited updates. That's the best anyone can do to secure against malicious injection.
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2020-06-13T07:39:24Z bhartrihari: We can do that. I was wondering if being able to pin audited versions of libraries from the same dist could work better, in that it is less burdensome and doesn't fragment the efforts of the community.
2020-06-13T07:39:30Z bhartrihari: Shinmera: ^^
2020-06-13T07:40:27Z Shinmera: that fundamentally breaks quicklisp's model.
2020-06-13T07:41:14Z Shinmera: the point of the dist is to provide a snapshot of the world that has some guarantees about stability. as soon as you pin only some libraries, that model breaks.
2020-06-13T07:41:43Z Shinmera: you can do that yourself, by cloning the library into local-projects at whatever you want, but you also bear the consequences of doing so.
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2020-06-13T07:43:35Z phoe: bhartrihari: you can e.g. pin NAMED-READTABLES to the current, reviewed version and enjoy it working
2020-06-13T07:43:59Z phoe: until SBCL updates itself to a new version and NAMED-READTABLES breaks
2020-06-13T07:44:23Z bhartrihari: Okay, how about using a package from a previous publication of a world? Can one do that currently?
2020-06-13T07:45:31Z bhartrihari: I see it now, thanks.
2020-06-13T07:45:33Z ldb: just ship dependencies with application
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2020-06-13T07:46:41Z bhartrihari: ldb: I'm talking about shipments which take place through quicklisp dists.
2020-06-13T07:47:48Z phoe: scymtym: anyway, has there been any issue created about this SBCL-related breakage you mentioned?
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2020-06-13T08:08:10Z phoe: scymtym: I've made an issue on n-r and linked the contents of your message there.
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2020-06-13T08:45:37Z fe[nl]ix: bhartrihari: you have to keep up-to-date with the rest of the ecosystem
2020-06-13T08:46:04Z fe[nl]ix: and if stuff doesn't compile, packages will be removed from the dist
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2020-06-13T13:07:54Z Harag: is it just me or is hash tables in sbcl 2.0.5 a lot faster than 2.0.0!!! My db test is loading 1mil records with hash-table indexes in 17 seconds where it was taking 100 seconds previously!!!
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2020-06-13T13:20:58Z phoe: Harag: http://www.sbcl.org/all-news.html mentions a few hash table modifications, but mostly for EQUALP
2020-06-13T13:21:16Z phoe: that is, between 2.0.5 and 2.0.0
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2020-06-13T13:45:28Z Harag: phoe: I use equalp ... so that would explain it I suppose
2020-06-13T13:46:44Z Harag: if I run the tests over and over sbcl eventually gets its nickers in a not and performance goes out the window again. (event with restarts)...trying a reboot now to see if that helps
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2020-06-13T13:57:17Z _death: you could profile your code and see if the hash-table code is relevant
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2020-06-13T14:15:54Z Harag: _death: been doing it
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2020-06-13T14:17:06Z Harag: but cant profile gethash itself ... well in 2.0.0 I could not...
2020-06-13T14:20:11Z Harag: I tried a naive avl-tree instead of the hash-tables but it was horrible... at least the populating it was
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2020-06-13T14:36:13Z Harag: pffft sbcl 2.0.5 went backward in gc ... running my test twice in a row now crashes sbcl... last night on sbcl 2.0.0 I ran the tests over and over for hours without one crash while I was trying to tweak the code
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2020-06-13T14:37:13Z Harag: An mprotect call failed with ENOMEM. This probably means that the maximum amount of separate memory mappings was exceeded
2020-06-13T14:37:51Z beach: I have seen that one.
2020-06-13T14:39:07Z Harag: I run sbcl --dynamic-space-size 16000
2020-06-13T14:39:33Z Harag: and the first run gets to about 5.6 gigs according the system monitor
2020-06-13T14:39:57Z beach: As I recall, it does not have to do with the total amount of space.
2020-06-13T14:40:01Z Harag: repeating the run immediately crashes
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2020-06-13T14:40:38Z beach: Again, as I recall, it is the number of memory mappings made by the memory manager.
2020-06-13T14:41:10Z Harag: To fix the problem, either increase the maximum with e.g. 'echo 262144 > /proc/sys/vm/max_map_count' or recompile SBCL with a larger value for GENCGC-CARD-BYTES in
2020-06-13T14:41:11Z Harag: 'src/compiler/target/backend-parms.lisp'.
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2020-06-13T14:49:10Z Harag: cant find backend-parms.lisp ..grepped for GENCGC-CARD-BYTES and can only find notes about it nothing to set it
2020-06-13T14:54:26Z phoe: Harag: grep for it lowercase
2020-06-13T14:54:51Z phoe: `git grep -i gencgc-card` gives me lots of hits
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2020-06-13T15:06:43Z Harag: (defconstant gencgc-card-bytes +backend-page-bytes+)
2020-06-13T15:06:51Z Harag: (defconstant +backend-page-bytes+ #+win32 65536 #-win32 32768)
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2020-06-13T15:07:28Z Harag: wrong file
2020-06-13T15:07:31Z Harag: (defconstant +backend-page-bytes+ 65536)
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2020-06-13T15:08:06Z Harag: so what should it be set to?
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2020-06-13T15:12:20Z phoe: obviously, more than that
2020-06-13T15:12:23Z phoe: maybe #sbcl will be able to help more
2020-06-13T15:12:37Z Harag: according to https://docs.actian.com/vector/5.0/index.html#page/User/Increase_max_map_count_Kernel_Parameter_(Linux).htm it should be 65536 if my math is right  (/ 2097152 32)
2020-06-13T15:12:39Z Harag: k
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2020-06-13T16:24:27Z jmercouris: How do you guys automatically restart your lisp web servers when they crash?
2020-06-13T16:24:53Z jmercouris: there is some strange bug I can’t figure out that keeps causing our sever to crash, leading to downtime if i am not paying attention
2020-06-13T16:25:15Z jmercouris: wondering if I can just wrap everything in a condition handler and restart or something
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2020-06-13T16:25:48Z jmercouris: I know that is not a true solution, but I don’t have time right now...
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2020-06-13T16:30:09Z shymega: jmercouris: systemd maybe? I don't know what OS you're on. Or supervisord..
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2020-06-13T16:30:39Z shinohai: ewwww systemd
2020-06-13T16:31:29Z jmercouris: i’m on BSD
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2020-06-13T16:31:50Z jmercouris: so no point in handler case?
2020-06-13T16:31:57Z jmercouris: it would seem logical to me...
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2020-06-13T16:33:05Z phoe: jmercouris: run with --disable-debugger or an equivalent, use your BSD's init system to restart it on crash
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2020-06-13T16:36:35Z phoe: it's not really a Lisp question at this point, it's a question about BSD services and their restart strategies
2020-06-13T16:36:47Z phoe: your Lisp image is just Yet Another Unix Daemon™ at this point; treat it like one
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2020-06-13T17:20:03Z Harag: FYI - setting vm.max_map_count works but changing GENCGC-CARD-BYTES in lisp does not
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2020-06-13T17:30:15Z grayling_: I have a question about lexical closures if anyone is up for it.
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2020-06-13T17:33:18Z Josh_2: Is there a recursive version of jonathan:parse ?
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2020-06-13T17:36:36Z phoe: grayling_: sure
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2020-06-13T17:38:27Z grayling_: (let ((db (make-hash-table :test #'equal)))
2020-06-13T17:38:27Z grayling_:   (defun get-db (key) (gethash key db))
2020-06-13T17:38:27Z grayling_:   (defun put-db (key val) (setf (gethash key db) val))
2020-06-13T17:38:27Z grayling_:   (defun return-db () db)
2020-06-13T17:38:30Z grayling_:   (defun peek-db ()
2020-06-13T17:38:33Z grayling_:     (loop for k being the hash-keys in db using (hash-value v)
2020-06-13T17:38:37Z grayling_:        do (print k)))
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2020-06-13T17:38:40Z grayling_:   (defun clear-db () (clrhash db)))
2020-06-13T17:38:43Z grayling_:  
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2020-06-13T17:38:47Z grayling_ [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (grayling_)
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2020-06-13T17:39:31Z Josh_2: rip
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2020-06-13T17:41:03Z grayling_: Sorry. My question about lexical closure is this: https://pastebin.com/yzvnCnnm
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2020-06-13T17:41:33Z phoe: OK, I can understand that code - that's five functions closed over a hash table
2020-06-13T17:41:56Z beach: Wow, that's the third person in a short time using closures instead of standard objects.
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2020-06-13T17:42:15Z grayling_: For some reason (peek-db) only works after a recompile.
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2020-06-13T17:42:24Z phoe: grayling_: recompile? what do you mean?
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2020-06-13T17:43:50Z grayling_: Ah. Sorry. I load the project using quicklisp. But only after working on it and using slime is peek-db returning a value.
2020-06-13T17:44:05Z phoe: grayling_: https://rextester.com/IFAPFS39892
2020-06-13T17:44:11Z phoe: no idea, this works for me outside QL
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2020-06-13T17:44:19Z grayling_: I can get-db and put-db just fine.
2020-06-13T17:44:50Z grayling_: Ah. Then it must be my project setup somehow.
2020-06-13T17:45:05Z phoe: could you put up your code on GitHub so I can try loading the system and reproducing it?
2020-06-13T17:45:12Z grayling_: Sure.
2020-06-13T17:45:19Z phoe: (also, why don't you use a global variable?)
2020-06-13T17:45:38Z Josh_2: don't worry about my previous question, I was making a mistake with my json encoding. Fixed it now
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2020-06-13T17:47:17Z grayling_: Yes, I could use a global variable - and that works just fine. I just wondered.
2020-06-13T17:47:23Z grayling_: https://github.com/hawkish/common-lisp
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2020-06-13T17:47:41Z grayling_: The project itself is under /pattern
2020-06-13T17:48:48Z phoe: grayling_: also, what do you mean, "works"?
2020-06-13T17:48:55Z phoe: what do you mean by it not working?
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2020-06-13T17:50:05Z grayling_: If I just (asdf:load-system :aeai-pattern) I cannot use (peek-db). It returns nothing even after (get-db) being used.
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2020-06-13T17:50:26Z phoe: oh. yes, I can reproduce that.
2020-06-13T17:50:47Z grayling_: Isn't that strange?
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2020-06-13T17:52:37Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1910#1910
2020-06-13T17:53:53Z grayling_: Yes. That's the issue.
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2020-06-13T17:55:03Z phoe: !
2020-06-13T17:55:29Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1910#1911
2020-06-13T17:55:37Z phoe: for whatever reason, these functions are closed over *different* hash tables.
2020-06-13T17:55:38Z phoe: why?
2020-06-13T17:56:42Z phoe: is that expected?
2020-06-13T17:56:48Z grayling_: That is the question.
2020-06-13T17:57:00Z phoe: I'd say no, that smells like a bug of some sort
2020-06-13T17:57:09Z grayling_: No. db should be the same hash-table
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2020-06-13T17:57:42Z grayling_: Okay. Then it isn't me going mad. :-)
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2020-06-13T18:01:04Z phoe: grayling_: actually
2020-06-13T18:01:05Z phoe: https://github.com/hawkish/common-lisp/blob/c477637b16d91b255284289d4dad8a7cb5fc929e/pattern/src/mycin.lisp#L49
2020-06-13T18:01:19Z phoe: PUT-DB is redefined elsewhere and it closes over a different hash table.
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2020-06-13T18:06:19Z phoe: case solved, I think
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2020-06-13T18:14:21Z grayling_: Thank you. I totally missed that.
2020-06-13T18:14:26Z phoe: <3
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2020-06-13T18:23:55Z momozor: Hi
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2020-06-13T18:25:15Z momozor: Is there something like (:require :cl-ppcre :as :something-short) for ASDF?
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2020-06-13T18:25:45Z momozor: so I can do, (something-short:scan ...)
2020-06-13T18:25:47Z momozor: for example
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2020-06-13T18:27:30Z momozor: I checked the ASDF documentations, but I can't find anything that do something like that.
2020-06-13T18:27:42Z momozor: *or maybe I just missed it somewhere*
2020-06-13T18:28:03Z phoe: momozor: it's not for ASDF
2020-06-13T18:28:09Z phoe: it's called package-local nicknames
2020-06-13T18:28:32Z phoe: (defpackage #:my-package (:use :cl) (:local-nicknames (:p :cl-ppcre))) (in-package #:my-package)
2020-06-13T18:28:36Z phoe: then, (p:scan ...)
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2020-06-13T18:29:15Z momozor: ohhh
2020-06-13T18:29:23Z momozor: thanks..now I know what to find
2020-06-13T18:29:43Z momozor: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/packages.html#give-a-package-a-local-nickname
2020-06-13T18:29:46Z momozor: oh
2020-06-13T18:29:56Z momozor: phoe: thanks again!
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2020-06-13T18:36:27Z jmercouris: phoe: OK, will do
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2020-06-13T20:24:28Z Josh_2: Made a leaky bucket rate limiter in CL, pretty sweet
2020-06-13T20:24:39Z Josh_2: going straight onto the backend for my website
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2020-06-13T20:53:10Z seok: Anyone use emacs to remote connect to aws or another server?
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2020-06-13T21:08:13Z drmeister: Does anyone know how the precedence works when you have additional dists in quicklisp?
2020-06-13T21:08:32Z drmeister: In cando we install a quicklisp distribution called "quickclasp".
2020-06-13T21:08:33Z Shinmera: if I remember correctly whichever has a higher priority number takes precedence
2020-06-13T21:09:01Z drmeister: I believe that quickclasp systems shadow quicklisp.
2020-06-13T21:09:05Z Shinmera: yes
2020-06-13T21:09:17Z Shinmera: new dists have a higher precedence than the default dist by default.
2020-06-13T21:09:18Z drmeister: What is the priority number? Where is that stored?
2020-06-13T21:09:59Z drmeister: I'm asking because some of us think that they are getting a different precedence than others.
2020-06-13T21:10:13Z Shinmera: quicklisp/dists/<dist>/preference.txt
2020-06-13T21:10:27Z drmeister: It was a big deal a couple of days ago when quickclasp was serving clasp specific systems for bordeaux-threads, trivial-garbage and trivial-backtrace.
2020-06-13T21:10:46Z drmeister: Since the new quicklisp update a few days ago quickclasp stopped serving those.
2020-06-13T21:10:54Z Shinmera: you can always check where something is coming from with ql:where-is-system
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2020-06-13T21:11:54Z drmeister: But in the future if we shadow quicklisp systems we may run into this again.
2020-06-13T21:12:06Z drmeister: This is interesting...  Here are my preference.txt values...
2020-06-13T21:12:07Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/kOSDbdYF/
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2020-06-13T21:12:29Z drmeister: Martin is saying that his numbers are the same.
2020-06-13T21:12:49Z drmeister: What determines the preference.txt value?
2020-06-13T21:12:58Z Shinmera: it's set on dist install
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2020-06-13T21:13:58Z drmeister: Why would mine be different and quickclasp has a higher value (3800557960) while quicklisp has a lower one (3800557960).
2020-06-13T21:14:31Z drmeister: On Martin's system they both have the value 3801058370
2020-06-13T21:14:38Z Shinmera: no idea.
2020-06-13T21:14:44Z Shinmera: gotta ask Xach for that
2020-06-13T21:14:49Z drmeister: Hmmm. Xach - are you online>?
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2020-06-13T21:39:53Z Josh_2: seok: yes with Tramp mode
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2020-06-13T21:40:10Z seok: Yeah I've been trying for 3 hours
2020-06-13T21:40:19Z seok: How do I give ppk/pem file for ssh?
2020-06-13T21:40:41Z Josh_2: Using the normal unix SSH tools
2020-06-13T21:40:48Z seok: I am on windows
2020-06-13T21:40:54Z Josh_2: well I don't know then
2020-06-13T21:41:27Z Josh_2: when you have setup passwordless login for SSH Tramp should connect without a pass
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2020-06-13T21:41:40Z seok: if I do /ssh: I get error :unknown option "-e"
2020-06-13T21:41:55Z seok: if I do /plink: it cannot find the ppk file
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2020-06-13T21:55:58Z Shinmera: this is off-topic. try #emacs
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2020-06-13T22:38:27Z Josh_2: Lisp images so tough despite my error-error being 3 levels deep It's still serving my site just fine
2020-06-13T22:38:28Z Josh_2: oof
2020-06-13T22:41:26Z Josh_2: oops
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2020-06-13T22:53:09Z Xach: drmeister: it's the universal-time of installation
2020-06-13T22:53:37Z Xach: drmeister: the theory being that newer systems are preferred by default
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2020-06-13T22:56:10Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1912#1912 can someone help me with this error? It's clearly to do with my macro, I'm guessing if I put the (defparameter .. ) into (eval-when ..) It would fix the error
2020-06-13T22:56:39Z Josh_2: but why am I getting this error? I had two others about how two of the functions used in my macro were not available at compile-time
2020-06-13T22:59:05Z drmeister: Xach: Thanks - then we are installing quicklisp and adding quickclasp too quickly  after that.
2020-06-13T22:59:24Z drmeister: We are doing this in a script that sets up a lot of software.
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2020-06-13T23:07:05Z Josh_2: I think I understand, the macroexpansion is attempting to call a function that doesn't exist when it needs it
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2020-06-13T23:19:24Z matzy_: could anyone help me understand why my super, super simple webserver project refuses to be compiled by asdf? I've been searching for hours and hours and can't figure out what i i did wrong
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2020-06-13T23:21:03Z matzy_: once sec i'll post the github code
2020-06-13T23:21:14Z matzy_: my remote is being annoying
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2020-06-13T23:22:12Z Xach: drmeister: the value can be set manually also
2020-06-13T23:22:21Z Xach: if the automatic default isn't doing what you need
2020-06-13T23:22:53Z drmeister: Xach: That's what I think we will do, rather than playing Russian Roulette with installation timing.
2020-06-13T23:23:11Z matzy_: ugh github is being super annoying, but here's the link - https://github.com/cmatzenbach/conway-ff  -- the only difference is i moved everything from the /api folder to the top level and deleted the folder to hopefully make asdf happy, but no
2020-06-13T23:24:14Z drmeister: Funny thing though - I swore to Martin up and down that quickclasp shadowed quicklisp while he said that he was seeing it the other way.   In my case I was installing quickclasp by hand and he was using a script that we are developing where the two are installed in rapid succession.
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2020-06-13T23:24:56Z drmeister: In his case they both had the same value so it was a coin toss which one shadowed the other.   It's kind of fortunate that we hit this - because now we can take control.
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2020-06-13T23:25:27Z matzy_: the thing is, i got it to compile once, and then i made a couple menial changes and it has never worked since then
2020-06-13T23:25:29Z drmeister: quickclasp isn't currently shadowing any quicklisp systems - but it may in the future.  So it was a logic bomb waiting to happen.
2020-06-13T23:26:26Z matzy_: i've even restored back to the initial commit and it still wouldn't compile from that
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2020-06-13T23:33:21Z matzy_: it keeps error out after the (defvar *acceptor*) and saying "Package HUNCHENTOOT doesn't exist)
2020-06-13T23:33:39Z matzy_: line 21 in server.lisp
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2020-06-13T23:37:52Z matzy_: All I do is make a package for server.lisp, :use cl, and export the start-server and stop-server functions.  in main.lisp all I do is call (in-package :server) and then call (server:server-start)
2020-06-13T23:39:58Z no-defun-allowed: You shouldn't QUICKLOAD the packages from inside the source files.
2020-06-13T23:40:41Z no-defun-allowed: What will happen is, that when ASDF goes to compile your file, it'll read it without running the QUICKLOAD forms, and will get confused when Hunchentoot isn't present.
2020-06-13T23:40:44Z matzy_: oh yeah i also install the four dependencies i need in quicklisp after my (defpackage :server) and (in-package :server) which was loding fine at one point
2020-06-13T23:40:54Z matzy_: ahhhhhh
2020-06-13T23:41:26Z no-defun-allowed: Instead, add a :depends-on argument to your DEFSYSTEM in the asd file, like :depends-on (:hunchentoot :easy-routes :jonathan)
2020-06-13T23:41:43Z no-defun-allowed: (I don't think you need hunchentoot-test to write programs using Hunchentoot.)
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2020-06-13T23:42:42Z matzy_: see, i was thinking about that, but i read a blog post on asdf 3 and he says that was dumb for some reason
2020-06-13T23:42:49Z matzy_: but i was kinda suspecious
2020-06-13T23:42:54Z matzy_: thank you SO MUCH
2020-06-13T23:42:58Z matzy_: i'm gonna try it now
2020-06-13T23:43:29Z no-defun-allowed: That's what I always do, and I don't think trying to QUICKLOAD from the source file would be the non-dumb solution though.
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2020-06-13T23:48:18Z matzy_: no-defun-allowed
2020-06-13T23:48:24Z matzy_: that fixed it!!!!
2020-06-13T23:48:50Z no-defun-allowed: Great!
2020-06-13T23:48:55Z matzy_: THAKN YOU SO MUCH
2020-06-13T23:49:14Z matzy_: really appreciate you taking the time to look at my code
2020-06-13T23:49:32Z seok: I am getting an error loading slime on emacs
2020-06-13T23:49:33Z seok: File is missing: Cannot open load file, No such file or directory, slime-autoloads
2020-06-13T23:49:39Z seok: where should this file be?
2020-06-13T23:51:42Z matzy_: i have one other general question if you have a second - when i run (asdf:load-system "my-system") is it  1. generating a binary  and  2.  re-compiling every time?  What if I have a stable compiled version and want to run that one?  Would I still use (asdf:load-system "my-system")?
2020-06-13T23:52:06Z matzy_: seok what OS are you using?
2020-06-13T23:52:23Z seok: I am trying to setup slime remotely
2020-06-13T23:52:29Z seok: on aws from windows
2020-06-13T23:52:34Z seok: ubuntu
2020-06-13T23:52:49Z matzy_: wait windows or ubuntu?
2020-06-13T23:52:53Z matzy_: big difference
2020-06-13T23:52:54Z seok: ubuntu on aws
2020-06-13T23:52:58Z seok: windows locally
2020-06-13T23:53:04Z matzy_: ok, that makes things a bit easier
2020-06-13T23:53:21Z no-defun-allowed: ASDF will always load the version of a system as it exists in the source code, which may involve recompiling changed files.
2020-06-13T23:53:24Z seok: what do I have to load?
2020-06-13T23:53:54Z matzy_: unfortunately i've just started using aws this past week :(   but let me think, cause i just had to do a bunch of configuring as i've been learning docker
2020-06-13T23:55:15Z matzy_: no-defun-allowed so it's re-compiled every time, but only compiles files that have changes made to them?  is this a binary you can run outside of that asdf function?
2020-06-13T23:56:37Z no-defun-allowed: No, it will generate one FASL file per Lisp source file. You could load those with LOAD, but you would need to ensure everything each file depends on is loaded before loading it; which is basically just doing what ASDF would do for you.
2020-06-13T23:57:27Z matzy_: seok did you (require 'slime-autoloads)?
2020-06-13T23:57:34Z seok: in .emacs?
2020-06-13T23:57:38Z matzy_: yes
2020-06-13T23:58:05Z seok: after load or before?
2020-06-13T23:58:15Z matzy_: seok check out this github issue: https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/258
2020-06-13T23:59:30Z matzy_: similar problem.  but let me check my personal slime setup in emacs
2020-06-13T23:59:45Z seok: I added it between (load.. and (setq inferior-lisp-program)
2020-06-13T23:59:49Z seok: and get this error File is missing: Cannot open load file, No such file or directory, slime-autoloads
2020-06-14T00:00:16Z matzy_: no-defun-allowed ah ok i see now.  thanks for the great explanation
2020-06-14T00:00:51Z matzy_: it was so frustrating because it worked ins slime but wouldn't compile, and now it all make ssense :)
2020-06-14T00:01:00Z matzy_: *in slime
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2020-06-14T00:06:28Z matzy_: seok so find ";; ======== COMMON LISP ========" in my init.el file in my init.el file:: https://github.com/cmatzenbach/emacs-config/blob/master/init.el
2020-06-14T00:06:44Z matzy_: word salad but hopefullt that helps
2020-06-14T00:07:22Z seok: It's a bit odd
2020-06-14T00:07:28Z seok: I am getting .quicklisp/
2020-06-14T00:07:31Z seok: but not quicklisp/
2020-06-14T00:07:41Z seok: on home/ubuntu directory
2020-06-14T00:08:24Z matzy_: there's some trial/unnecessary stuff in there, i assume you understand enough about emacs to but out the stuff you don't need, but it works just fine
2020-06-14T00:08:40Z matzy_: *take out
2020-06-14T00:09:34Z seok: yes
2020-06-14T00:09:50Z seok: so Im actually plinking to load this file
2020-06-14T00:09:57Z seok: plink:ubuntu@ec2-107-22-143-36.compute-1.amazonaws.com:~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el
2020-06-14T00:09:57Z Harag: seok: how do you install quicklisp in your Dockerfile?
2020-06-14T00:10:16Z seok: I had to do this
2020-06-14T00:10:17Z seok: (load (expand-file-name "/myplink:ubuntu@ec2-107-22-143-36.compute-1.amazonaws.com:.quicklisp/slime-helper.el"))
2020-06-14T00:10:25Z seok: it can find slime-helper.el
2020-06-14T00:10:34Z seok: but not slime-autoloads
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2020-06-14T00:12:50Z matzy_: so i'm actually trying to setup this server on a dockerfile too
2020-06-14T00:13:07Z seok: you are trying to do the same thing?
2020-06-14T00:13:47Z Josh_2: How do I serve a .ico file with hunchentoot... it expects a string to output
2020-06-14T00:13:57Z seok: ive been trying to connect for 5 hours. haha
2020-06-14T00:14:16Z seok: finally got it connecting to the file directory, but not slime yet
2020-06-14T00:14:34Z Josh_2: should install linux in a vm
2020-06-14T00:14:39Z Josh_2: make this 100x easier
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2020-06-14T00:15:03Z seok: you are probably right
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2020-06-14T00:15:31Z no-defun-allowed: Josh_2: Use (hunchentoot:send-headers) to send off the headers and get a binary stream, then WRITE-SEQUENCE a byte vector to that stream.
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2020-06-14T00:15:49Z no-defun-allowed: i.e. (write-sequence ico-data (hunchentoot:send-headers))
2020-06-14T00:16:39Z Josh_2: rip, not using hunchentoot direction oof
2020-06-14T00:16:59Z Josh_2: will have to figure out how ningle wraps around these
2020-06-14T00:17:10Z no-defun-allowed: glhf
2020-06-14T00:17:13Z Josh_2: no-defun-allowed: thanks though. Pointed me in the right direction
2020-06-14T00:19:16Z matzy_: seok yeah, i'm trying to deploy a docker container to aws with a minimal webserver for a pro bono project i'm doing.  you should check out this container, it has everything we need: https://hub.docker.com/r/madnificent/lisp-webservice
2020-06-14T00:19:54Z Harag: maybe look at this https://github.com/shassard/sbcl-ql-swank learn how to set up your Dockerfile correctly
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2020-06-14T00:22:19Z matzy_: i just wan't figure out how to get it running.  i think it was because i had always been running my server locally with slime and have never used asdf to build the package.  i'm hoping now I  can just specify the system no-defun-allowed helped me compile/load/whatever and it will work
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2020-06-14T00:23:54Z matzy_: The "Idiomatic Use" section of his docs says "Ideally, your webservice has the same name as its main package, and the main package should contain a boot command which launches the web service".  I'm just confused of his wording of "package" and "webservice" there
2020-06-14T00:25:23Z matzy_: I think "main package" refers to the system no-defun-allowed just helped me compile but I still don't know what he means by "package"
2020-06-14T00:25:52Z matzy_: or sorry i don't know what he means by "webservice"
2020-06-14T00:26:09Z no-defun-allowed: Probably the server program you are going to end up running.
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2020-06-14T00:26:32Z matzy_: so the lisp file that starts the server?
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2020-06-14T00:28:22Z no-defun-allowed: I haven't used Docker or that configuration before, but I guess the expected use is that you have a file that loads your system and calls some function to start the server.
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2020-06-14T00:29:06Z no-defun-allowed: Or you use `docker run` arguments to tell it what system to load, and what to run to start it? I'm not sure.
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2020-06-14T00:30:11Z matzy_: yeah it's kinda confusing.  i appreciate the suggestions though, i'll try them
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2020-06-14T00:30:53Z Harag: you install what you need on the docker with RUN commands and then usually the last thing in the Docker file is a CMD that you start lisp with loading your package or source file which should contain the code that starts your webserver etc
2020-06-14T00:31:41Z Harag: are you testing your Docker locally before you are pushing to AWS?
2020-06-14T00:31:48Z matzy_: oh shit
2020-06-14T00:31:56Z matzy_: that makes complete sense
2020-06-14T00:32:14Z matzy_: Harag you are a god among men
2020-06-14T00:32:23Z matzy_: it's hard to find people who use cl + docker
2020-06-14T00:32:40Z matzy_: or posts about it online, and manual setup is pretty complex
2020-06-14T00:32:47Z Harag: no matzy_ i just had to learn how to do it a couple of days ago
2020-06-14T00:34:00Z seok: matzy_ I've never heard of docker and just started to look into it
2020-06-14T00:34:06Z seok: this makes things so much easier
2020-06-14T00:34:34Z matzy_: especially since it's super easy to deploy to aws once you get it setup
2020-06-14T00:34:39Z matzy_: the setup is the hard part
2020-06-14T00:35:15Z seok: yes
2020-06-14T00:35:31Z matzy_: Harag yeah, i haven't pushed anything to aws yet
2020-06-14T00:35:33Z seok: I'm wondering, how does docker handle inbound and outbound address & ports?
2020-06-14T00:35:39Z matzy_: i haven't even got the server running on docker
2020-06-14T00:35:52Z matzy_: hell, i hadn't gotten it to "compile" until npw
2020-06-14T00:35:52Z seok: wouldn't you need to change settings of you application once you upload your container to a cloud?
2020-06-14T00:36:18Z matzy_: there's a network section in the docker docs
2020-06-14T00:36:25Z matzy_: it's really good at explaining that all
2020-06-14T00:37:15Z Harag: in docerfile EXPOSE [port number]
2020-06-14T00:37:43Z Harag: in lisp code makes sure your lisp server is bound to 0.0.0.0 and the port you exposed
2020-06-14T00:37:47Z seok: ah so you can use internal ports to handle network?
2020-06-14T00:37:49Z Harag: in the run command
2020-06-14T00:38:00Z seok: I'll have a look at the docs
2020-06-14T00:38:20Z Harag: --publish [localport]:[docker port]
2020-06-14T00:40:22Z Harag: the jist of it is that you need to tell docker which ports to open with EXPOSE, and to be able to test on your local machine when you run you have to map the docker port to a port on your local machine
2020-06-14T00:41:11Z Harag: internally docker uses 0.0.0.0 for localhost and not 127.0.01 ... or something like that.... i am not to hot networking
2020-06-14T00:42:49Z Harag: but this is now of topic
2020-06-14T00:46:18Z matzy_: seok if you use the image i provided it takes care of the networking (or rather, shows you the commands to in the docs)
2020-06-14T00:46:52Z seok: https://hub.docker.com/r/madnificent/lisp-webservice was it this?
2020-06-14T00:47:34Z seok: hm it doesn't open anymore
2020-06-14T00:47:43Z seok: I had to restart installing docker
2020-06-14T00:47:44Z seok: : (
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2020-06-14T00:49:14Z matzy_: https://hub.docker.com/r/madnificent/lisp-webservice
2020-06-14T00:49:22Z matzy_: so yeah same link
2020-06-14T00:50:02Z matzy_: there's also a github with the same README if you go to https://github.com/madnificent/lisp-webservice-docker
2020-06-14T00:50:12Z seok: I am getting 404
2020-06-14T00:51:22Z matzy_: on the github site?
2020-06-14T00:51:59Z matzy_: you can also try going to hub.docker.com and searching for "lisp-webservice" till you find his
2020-06-14T00:52:07Z seok: on the docker site
2020-06-14T00:52:12Z seok: github site works fine
2020-06-14T00:52:28Z seok: hm
2020-06-14T00:53:12Z matzy_: i dunno, it works fine for me, and i tried in a private window
2020-06-14T00:53:39Z matzy_: just do what i said above and go to dockerhub and search for that image name and looks for the one with his username
2020-06-14T00:53:48Z matzy_: or just use the instructions in his github readme
2020-06-14T00:55:37Z matzy_: so Harag would I load the quicklisp repos through his command in the docker image and remove them from the :depends-on section of my .asd file?
2020-06-14T00:58:14Z Harag: matzy_: that docker image really cool but really complicated I would start with a simple Docker file form scratch which will teach you the basics after that you can get fancy
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2020-06-14T01:04:57Z matzy_: Harag yeah that's the one thing I was worried about, it's taking a docker image and then adding more stuff onto it for convenience, but if I could get it to work....i do understand almost all of the commands in the Dockerfile
2020-06-14T01:05:28Z matzy_: of course i'm still a docker newbie and can't even get one to keep running
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2020-06-14T03:13:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-14T03:57:34Z PuercoPop: What are the consequences of (declare (ignore foo))? If I declare a keyword arguemnt as ignored in one method and then (call-next-method). Should the next method be able to use the keyword argument?
2020-06-14T03:58:23Z beach: Sure.
2020-06-14T03:58:44Z beach: The declaration is valid in a lexical scope.
2020-06-14T03:59:35Z beach: It is just to inform the compiler that in that particular scope, you don't intend to use the variable, so the compiler should not warn if the variable is not used.
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2020-06-14T04:00:27Z beach: And by "lexical scope" is meant the text that covers the declaration.  The next method is not in that scope.
2020-06-14T04:02:48Z beach: The text that is covered by the declaration, rather.
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2020-06-14T04:20:29Z PuercoPop: beach: thanks
2020-06-14T04:25:57Z beach: Sure.
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2020-06-14T05:31:48Z adlai wonders what the inspiration for #'ql-setup::dumb-string-hash
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2020-06-14T05:34:40Z no-defun-allowed: ql-setup::asdf-fasl-pathname appears to use it. That seems to used to name the FASL file for ASDF.
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2020-06-14T05:51:58Z adlai: right, I mean the hash algorithm itself
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2020-06-14T05:55:22Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure, but it basically rotates (not shifts; rotation causes the most significant bits that get pushed off to the left to cycle back into the least significant) the hash by 5 bits and XORs in the next character code. Nothing really too fancy, so I don't know if it's really inspired by anything.
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2020-06-14T06:24:21Z _death: here's an old hack https://gist.github.com/death/a500450a98f2bd3b5d27b53ab87be6cf
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2020-06-14T06:44:41Z adlai: _death: "Created 20 minutes ago" old indeed :)
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2020-06-14T06:46:24Z _death: putting it online is new
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2020-06-14T06:46:38Z adlai: it's probably "safe" since the input space is significantly restricted (implementation name & version, machine type & version)
2020-06-14T06:47:01Z phoe:  morniiiing
2020-06-14T06:47:25Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning phoe
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2020-06-14T06:51:36Z beach: Hello phoe.  Which speaker goes first tomorrow?
2020-06-14T06:51:46Z phoe: I've yet to flip the coin
2020-06-14T06:51:50Z phoe: Let me do that
2020-06-14T06:51:54Z beach: OK.
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2020-06-14T06:54:28Z phoe: (progn (setf *random-state* (make-random-state)) (alexandria:whichever :beach :easye)) ;=> :EASYE
2020-06-14T06:54:31Z phoe: you go second
2020-06-14T06:54:46Z beach: OK, and how long do you think his presentation is?
2020-06-14T06:55:01Z phoe: ~45 minutes, IIRC
2020-06-14T06:55:15Z beach: Thanks!
2020-06-14T06:56:31Z adlai: what presentations are these?
2020-06-14T06:57:31Z phoe: adlai: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/h0774g/online_lisp_meeting_3/
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2020-06-14T06:57:41Z adlai: thank you
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2020-06-14T13:46:48Z Josh_2: Afternoon all
2020-06-14T13:47:20Z Josh_2: Does anyone know how create a route for an image with Ningle?
2020-06-14T13:48:55Z Josh_2: https://github.com/fukamachi/lack here is says "in case of that you would prefer a stream to a function", 'lack.util.writer-stream warps the function .." So I think thats how I'm supposed to write my vector to the client however this function doesn't exist
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2020-06-14T14:02:22Z _death: did you load the lack-util-writer-stream system? it seems to ape javascript practice of defining lots of modules, each doing almost nothing
2020-06-14T14:03:14Z Josh_2: I tried loading it with quickload
2020-06-14T14:04:17Z Josh_2: https://imgur.com/Rgdl5tV.png
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2020-06-14T14:04:46Z _death: maybe your autocomplete is missing lack.util.writer-stream:make-writer-stream
2020-06-14T14:05:10Z Josh_2: Says it doesn't exist
2020-06-14T14:05:22Z Josh_2: simple-reader-package-error
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2020-06-14T14:07:26Z _death: well, it works for me.. please show more of your session
2020-06-14T14:07:30Z Josh_2: huh
2020-06-14T14:07:36Z Josh_2: one sec I will try a fresh sbcl
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2020-06-14T14:20:43Z SpaceIgor2075: Hello everybody! Is there something like Racket's 2htdp/universe big-bang for Common Lisp?
2020-06-14T14:21:25Z phoe: what's 2hdtp/universe big-bang?
2020-06-14T14:22:04Z phoe: oh, https://docs.racket-lang.org/teachpack/2htdpuniverse.html?q=big-bang#%28form._world._%28%28lib._2htdp%2Funiverse..rkt%29._big-bang%29%29
2020-06-14T14:23:01Z SpaceIgor2075: yes
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2020-06-14T14:55:02Z p_l: looks like pretty common event loop, just in more functional sauce
2020-06-14T14:55:14Z p_l: that said I haven't seen any explicit library like that
2020-06-14T14:55:22Z p_l: have seen related ideas in various code
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2020-06-14T14:57:42Z _death: I guess sketch is one
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2020-06-14T16:18:06Z Josh_2: _death: sorry for late response. Even on a fresh image I don't have that function
2020-06-14T16:18:25Z Josh_2: even if I ql clack and lack
2020-06-14T16:21:22Z _death: sounds like you have some debugging to do.. like finding out the effect of loading that system
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2020-06-14T16:23:42Z Josh_2: yikes
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2020-06-14T16:34:19Z Josh_2: even on my remote server I have the same problem
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2020-06-14T16:37:04Z _death: btw I have the git repo cloned, not the quicklisp release
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2020-06-14T16:42:13Z _death: here https://github.com/fukamachi/lack/blob/master/lack-util-writer-stream.asd you can see that it should load src/util/writer-stream(.lisp) .. in that file you can add a (cl:print "hi mom") at the top and see whether it's printed.. if not, you may have something weird like multiple systems going by the same name.. if it gets evaluated, then there's a good chance the rest of the forms get evaluated as well and you can go from there
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2020-06-14T16:53:40Z cracauer: i
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2020-06-14T17:08:06Z Josh_2: _death: it does not get printed
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2020-06-14T17:09:43Z _death: so you can try (asdf:system-relative-pathname "lack-util-writer-stream" "") to see where that asd file is
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2020-06-14T17:11:19Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1913#1913
2020-06-14T17:12:00Z Josh_2: Says it is within lack-2020610-git/
2020-06-14T17:12:11Z Josh_2: within the QL directory structure
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2020-06-14T17:12:51Z _death: so, can you add the transcript for loading lack-util-writer-stream and a find-package form showing the package's not there
2020-06-14T17:14:39Z _death: gtg
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2020-06-14T17:16:55Z Josh_2: If I just load the asd directly, I can then load the system with quicklisp and it works
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2020-06-14T17:40:24Z Josh_2: https://imgur.com/kbnsbvm.png how do I fix "ALEXANDRIA is a nickname for the package ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0"
2020-06-14T17:42:43Z Josh_2: sorry for using a screenshot
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2020-06-14T17:46:34Z Josh_2: oh wait
2020-06-14T17:46:35Z Josh_2: might be fine
2020-06-14T17:46:42Z Josh_2: think I just have to remake my lisp image
2020-06-14T17:47:01Z Josh_2: Yep :)
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2020-06-14T18:02:43Z Josh_2: _death: I have got it to work!
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2020-06-14T18:17:54Z Josh_2: Well I wanted to try using Woo instead of hunchentoot, it doesn't build ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-06-14T18:19:36Z Josh_2: Builds on my Gentoo install but not Ubuntu
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2020-06-14T18:52:21Z Harag: Josh_2:  woo needs libev-dev on ubuntu sudo apt install libev-dev
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2020-06-14T19:00:49Z momozor: Hi. May I ask something ABCL specific in here?
2020-06-14T19:01:19Z phoe: sure, in the worst case we'll defer to #abcl
2020-06-14T19:01:23Z phoe: or to easye ;)
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2020-06-14T19:05:56Z momozor: Is this the right way to actually load the maven artifact automatically from a Lisp project?
2020-06-14T19:06:08Z momozor: https://github.com/momozor/cl-abcl-hashids/blob/6ad352dc90050b3fcd9a6235ccf5aeda32664062/src/main.lisp#L11
2020-06-14T19:06:17Z momozor: Using abcl-contrib of course
2020-06-14T19:08:20Z momozor: It would be great to put it inside the project's .asd file, but I don't think ABCL recognize that snippet until you try to abcl-contrib
2020-06-14T19:08:42Z momozor: and I did try that, FYI. It won't work. :(
2020-06-14T19:09:01Z momozor: try to load abcl-contrib*
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2020-06-14T19:57:48Z Josh_2: Harag: I have that installed. Still didn't work
2020-06-14T20:02:03Z Harag: Josh_2: i might have missed some of the conversion...but why are you compiling woo and not using then one form quicklisp... or is it the quickload of woo that is crashing
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2020-06-14T20:05:07Z Harag: woo works on ubuntu, I must have installed it a 1000 times over the last couple of days testing an lisp ubuntu docker
2020-06-14T20:05:32Z Harag: what version of ubuntu are you using?
2020-06-14T20:05:51Z Josh_2: It was the quickload that failed
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2020-06-14T20:07:09Z Harag: Josh_2: what does the error say?
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2020-06-14T20:27:53Z luis: lukego: if you plan to get back to SLIME hacking, you should join #slime :-)
2020-06-14T20:28:43Z fe[nl]ix: luis: have you read https://borodust.org/2020/06/12/claw-honing/ ?
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2020-06-14T20:31:04Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: can you add https://borodust.org/atom.xml to Planet Lisp ?
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2020-06-14T20:47:48Z luis: fe[nl]ix: looks interesting. Thanks.
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2020-06-14T22:07:35Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: i can
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2020-06-14T22:16:44Z Xach fixes alexander artemenko while he is at it
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2020-06-14T22:25:54Z fe[nl]ix: thanks
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2020-06-14T23:25:19Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: ping
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2020-06-14T23:33:39Z Xach: rutils broke a bunch of stuff today!
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2020-06-14T23:37:26Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-06-14/failure-report.html
2020-06-14T23:37:38Z Xach files some bugs
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2020-06-15T00:05:26Z fe[nl]ix: luis: I just found http://kvardek-du.kerno.org/2012/06/augmenting-bordeaux-threads-with-atomic.html
2020-06-15T00:05:33Z fe[nl]ix: luis: do you have any of that code left around ?
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2020-06-15T03:09:11Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-15T03:38:44Z fe[nl]ix: hi beach
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2020-06-15T03:39:55Z no-defun-allowed: fe[nl]ix: Are you aware of https://github.com/Shinmera/atomics?
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2020-06-15T03:41:29Z fe[nl]ix: yes, but it's not exactly what I have in mind
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2020-06-15T04:42:37Z contrapunctus: o/
2020-06-15T04:43:02Z contrapunctus: ISTR there was a library for writing shell scripts in CL in a REPL-driven manner.
2020-06-15T04:43:40Z contrapunctus: Not Roswell or the other usual suspects...but I can't seem to find it anywhere 😔
2020-06-15T04:50:33Z contrapunctus: Ah, it was ScriptL! 🙂
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2020-06-15T05:12:29Z adlai: didn't minion once have a cliki command?
2020-06-15T05:12:51Z adlai: ehh, "Article not found", I guess that wouldn't have been much help anyway
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2020-06-15T05:39:58Z thmprover: I need to learn all the sordid details of CLOS's implementation (specifically its defgeneric and defmethod dispatching system), what's a good reference for that?
2020-06-15T05:40:25Z no-defun-allowed: Art of the Metaobject Protocol?
2020-06-15T05:40:42Z no-defun-allowed: I haven't read it, admittedly, but that's the CLOS implementation book to my knowledge.
2020-06-15T05:41:03Z thmprover: Awesome, good to know, thanks :)
2020-06-15T05:42:15Z thmprover: I'm trying to implement a constraint propagator system based on a paper by Gerald Sussman, and he uses a hackneyed generics system in Scheme which I think CLOS can handle...whatever-the-heck he's trying to do...better
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2020-06-15T05:43:50Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, wait, if you want to know about method dispatch, then you might want CLHS 7.6.6 more.
2020-06-15T05:43:51Z no-defun-allowed: clhs 7.6.6
2020-06-15T05:43:52Z specbot: Method Selection and Combination: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ff.htm
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2020-06-15T05:46:53Z thmprover: Hmm...interesting...thanks
2020-06-15T05:48:30Z thmprover: I fear this subject is a Rabbit hole...
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2020-06-15T05:52:48Z adlai: thmprover: don't read AMOP unless you are trying to change the way the object system works
2020-06-15T05:54:09Z adlai: if you try writing equivalent lisp code to the scheme in the paper, you'll probably find that the CLHS includes all the functionality you need
2020-06-15T05:54:10Z thmprover: adlai: would hacking together a predicate dispatch system count?
2020-06-15T05:54:13Z adlai: no
2020-06-15T05:54:50Z thmprover: That's a relief! ...not that AMOP is not worth reading, but I would prefer to defer it...
2020-06-15T05:54:56Z no-defun-allowed: I had read "CLOS's implementation", which is somewhat different to, say "method dispatch specification".
2020-06-15T05:55:39Z thmprover: Yeah, I'm still learning CL, and disentangling CLOS from method dispatch :S
2020-06-15T05:55:43Z adlai: read AMOP when you can focus on reading AMOP, rather than reading it for some quick hack
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2020-06-15T05:56:32Z adlai: you might want to glance at non-standard method combinations
2020-06-15T05:57:07Z thmprover: AMOP seems like a text worthy of exclusive, devoted focus and attention
2020-06-15T05:57:42Z adlai: clhs define-method-combination
2020-06-15T05:57:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_4.htm
2020-06-15T05:57:58Z adlai: specifically, the examples at the end of that entry might cover the use-case you need
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2020-06-15T05:58:24Z thmprover: Awesome, thanks adlai
2020-06-15T05:58:53Z adlai: you're welcome! no-defun-allowed also gave you good link, for the detailed description of the standard combination
2020-06-15T06:01:57Z thmprover: I've bookmarked both, I'll read them both tomorrow after work. Thanks for the references, adlai and no-defun-allowed, but it is late, and I need sleep. I'll catch y'all tomorrow.
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2020-06-15T07:37:22Z no-defun-allowed: jmercouris: Silly question, why did you name the Next browser to Nyxt? Better searchability?
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2020-06-15T07:44:12Z contrapunctus: adlai: halt state, as in can't understand it? Or red flag?
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2020-06-15T08:01:42Z adlai: contrapunctus: gift means gift in english, and gift in german. shell scripts have functions, so naming an executable in PATH "funcall" is just asking for desk head, palm face, and full amygdalar agonization
2020-06-15T08:02:26Z contrapunctus: Ahahaha
2020-06-15T08:02:56Z contrapunctus: I can see why it may cause aesthetic or semantic dissonance.
2020-06-15T08:03:28Z adlai: this gifts a whole new meaning to "i'll buy you a beer" "no, i pay for my own drinks" "please, a gift from the conference sponsor"
2020-06-15T08:04:07Z pve: contrapunctus: If you're on SBCL then you could have a look at https://github.com/pve1/shell-utility
2020-06-15T08:04:35Z pve: I made it mainly for myself, but if anyone finds it useful then that's cool too
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2020-06-15T08:07:55Z contrapunctus: pve: thanks. I stared at the example for a few moments before I realized that I'm looking at keywords, not namespace prefixes hidden by nameless-mode. Spent too long in Emacs Lisp land 😄
2020-06-15T08:08:49Z pve: contrapunctus: ok.. I'm not familiar with nameless-mode
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2020-06-15T08:09:26Z pve: actually let me update the readme with the resulting shell script
2020-06-15T08:09:54Z contrapunctus: Oh, I didn't mean to imply any deficiency in your project 🙂
2020-06-15T08:10:32Z pve: no but I want ot
2020-06-15T08:10:33Z pve: to
2020-06-15T08:12:36Z pve: contrapunctus: ok now
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2020-06-15T08:14:52Z pve: looks like I was in the wrong package when I did that..
2020-06-15T08:15:22Z contrapunctus: pve: fascinating 😀
2020-06-15T08:16:10Z pve: ok that's better
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2020-06-15T08:17:05Z pve: I thought I had a with-standard-io-syntax in there..
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2020-06-15T09:49:28Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: pong
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2020-06-15T10:15:25Z luis: fe[nl]ix: I'll have to search for my bordeaux-threads stuff, but it's probably not very different from Shinmera/atomics. What did you have in mind?
2020-06-15T10:15:53Z luis: fe[nl]ix: thanks for the borodust link, btw.
2020-06-15T10:21:02Z Shinmera: Unfortunately the divergence between implementation capabilities in this regard is fairly big.
2020-06-15T10:21:22Z Shinmera: Atomics takes the minimal approach of just documenting the divergences and leaving it up to the user to decide what to do about it.
2020-06-15T10:21:41Z Shinmera: So I suppose a more high-level library that gives consistent results in cases such as atomic-incf would be useful.
2020-06-15T10:22:30Z Shinmera: Someone seems to have started work on something akin to that: https://github.com/muyinliu/cl-atomic
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2020-06-15T10:45:19Z beach: phoe: What's the link to the online Common Lisp meeting?
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2020-06-15T10:47:06Z phoe: beach: https://www.twitch.tv/TwitchPlaysCommonLisp
2020-06-15T10:47:15Z beach: Thanks.
2020-06-15T10:47:58Z phoe: We're starting in 13 minutes.
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2020-06-15T10:52:27Z shka_: is sbcls sprof uses some sort of reservoir sampling?
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2020-06-15T10:56:41Z beach: phoe: I see absolutely no action.  Is that normal?
2020-06-15T10:57:05Z phoe: beach: no action? The clock should move
2020-06-15T10:57:11Z phoe: If not, try to Ctrl+F5
2020-06-15T10:57:19Z beach: I see no clock.
2020-06-15T10:57:24Z phoe: Refresh, then!
2020-06-15T10:57:32Z beach: Ah, that's better.
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2020-06-15T11:48:37Z contrapunctus: Trying to install Quicklisp. Ran the first three commands on https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ (the two curls and the gpg), but the last one says "gpg: Signature made Thu Jan 29 02:43:26 2015 IST gpg: using RSA key 307965AB028B5FF7 gpg: Can't check signature: No public key"
2020-06-15T11:48:59Z contrapunctus: What gives? Is it safe to proceed? 🤔
2020-06-15T11:49:19Z phoe: maybe Xach will help!
2020-06-15T11:49:53Z shinohai: contrapunctus: didja add their key to your keyring first?
2020-06-15T11:50:40Z shinohai: (`curl https://beta.quicklisp.org/release-key.txt | gpg --import` ?)
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2020-06-15T11:52:28Z contrapunctus: shinohai: I hadn't, thanks!
2020-06-15T11:54:54Z shinohai: np!
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2020-06-15T11:59:03Z contrapunctus: Oh boy...`(quicklisp-quickstart:install)` says "Quicklisp has already been installed.", but something like `(ql:quickload "scriptl")` says "Package QL does not exist."  😔
2020-06-15T11:59:17Z phoe: contrapunctus: (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp")
2020-06-15T11:59:26Z phoe: then (ql:add-to-init-file)
2020-06-15T11:59:34Z lonjil: ck__: hello. I saw that you implemented the Ryuu algorithm last year. Do you have the code somewhere and could I use it for the SICL printer?
2020-06-15T12:00:43Z contrapunctus: phoe: awesome, thanks! \o/
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2020-06-15T12:02:53Z adlai: contrapunctus: it is not safe to proceed, all tarballs are unsigned. at least the code that downloads them isn't!
2020-06-15T12:03:18Z contrapunctus: adlai: 😏
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2020-06-15T12:05:25Z contrapunctus: Le sigh, another roadblock. (ql:quickload "scriptl") proceeds, but now I get what looks like a C++ compilation error. http://ix.io/2peS/text
2020-06-15T12:05:41Z adlai: you asked "What gives?", after pasting gpg output instead of reading what gpg told you. This says to me that you should not give a fuck about the gpg output, even if you understand English, although maybe I'm just a pessimist.
2020-06-15T12:06:03Z ralt: contrapunctus: dnf install libfixposix
2020-06-15T12:06:31Z ralt: or libfixposix-dev/libfixposix-devel depending on your distro
2020-06-15T12:06:40Z adlai: at least the roadblocks are full of helpful friendlies, this'll go just fine.
2020-06-15T12:08:27Z phoe: easye: beach: thanks a lot for today's meeting!
2020-06-15T12:11:32Z contrapunctus: ralt: thanks, that seems to have fixed it :)
2020-06-15T12:11:43Z contrapunctus: adlai: I'm sorry, I don't understand the first thing about GPG. Granted, I do wish I had searched for that one, because retrospectively the results turned out to be something I could have worked from.
2020-06-15T12:12:25Z _death: contrapunctus: you need to install libfixposix
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2020-06-15T12:12:35Z adlai: it's basically a really swanky checksum
2020-06-15T12:12:55Z _death: oh, missed ralt's remarks
2020-06-15T12:13:03Z contrapunctus: _death: thanks, I did that and it's fixed ^^
2020-06-15T12:14:05Z adlai: if you end up using quicklisp's bundles for distributing your application's libraries, then you might find it worthwhile to learn more about GPG, depending on what your application is and who uses it.
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2020-06-15T13:04:25Z jmercouris: is there no way to get a more helpful debugger than this: http://dpaste.com/1G5RB6N ?
2020-06-15T13:04:32Z jmercouris: I don't even know where the false declaration is
2020-06-15T13:05:12Z jmercouris: how can I begin to debug this?
2020-06-15T13:06:51Z phoe: type in BACKTRACE
2020-06-15T13:07:01Z phoe: and hit Enter
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2020-06-15T13:07:45Z jmercouris: phoe: thank you a billion
2020-06-15T13:07:50Z jmercouris: I'm still a novice in SBCL
2020-06-15T13:07:58Z Bike: you can type HELP for debugger help
2020-06-15T13:08:03Z jmercouris: is this part of the spec or specific to SBCL?
2020-06-15T13:08:07Z jmercouris: the CCL debugger acts differently
2020-06-15T13:08:10Z phoe: impl-specific
2020-06-15T13:08:14Z jmercouris: OK
2020-06-15T13:08:22Z phoe: the debugger is not defined and left for the implementation
2020-06-15T13:08:30Z jmercouris: that is why they feel so different
2020-06-15T13:08:33Z jmercouris: that makes sense
2020-06-15T13:09:18Z jmercouris: oh man, that helped so much
2020-06-15T13:09:21Z jmercouris: I found the problem in 10 seconds
2020-06-15T13:09:36Z jmercouris: I wasted already 30 minutes trying to figure out what could be possibly causing this
2020-06-15T13:09:58Z jmercouris: I award phoe with at least 10 million more cookies
2020-06-15T13:10:10Z phoe: well there go my plans to get fit
2020-06-15T13:10:18Z phoe: damn it
2020-06-15T13:12:19Z adlai: if only there was a book that explained how to use the condition system !
2020-06-15T13:12:51Z adlai: or were, whatever the "Modern American Usage" is at Apress :)
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2020-06-15T13:25:37Z phoe: adlai: :D
2020-06-15T13:25:49Z phoe: actually I don't explain backtraces in there
2020-06-15T13:27:25Z adlai doesn't recall there being much standardized about these?
2020-06-15T13:27:50Z Bike: pretty sure nothing about backtraces is at all standardized
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2020-06-15T13:34:30Z beach: phoe: Pleasure!  Thanks for organizing it.
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2020-06-15T13:57:46Z phoe: Reflections on the Future History of Arming Bears - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgYyujNP85g
2020-06-15T13:57:59Z phoe: First-Class Global Environments - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE6SsLAZ4Mo
2020-06-15T13:58:07Z phoe: thank you for flying phoe airlines
2020-06-15T14:01:35Z heisig: phoe: Thanks, it was a pleasure!
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2020-06-15T14:02:37Z adlai: thank you for making the recorded talks available, phoe, for those who couldn't arrive on time at the terminal :)
2020-06-15T14:02:49Z phoe: <3
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2020-06-15T14:17:25Z matzy_: so asdf is kinda confusing me right now.  i have asdf version 3.3.1 (so the latest) which, according to what I'm reading online should automatically look in the ~/common-lisp folder, so does that mean I should symlink all my projects to that folder?
2020-06-15T14:18:33Z phoe: > so the latest
2020-06-15T14:18:43Z phoe: well, it's not the latest, but that's nto really the point
2020-06-15T14:18:48Z phoe: matzy_: do you use Quicklisp?
2020-06-15T14:19:19Z jmercouris: matzy_: it is not necessary to symlink to that folder
2020-06-15T14:19:35Z matzy_: yeah i have quicklisp installed
2020-06-15T14:19:45Z jmercouris: make a file located at ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/user-lisp.conf
2020-06-15T14:19:58Z matzy_: ok one sec
2020-06-15T14:20:03Z jmercouris: in this file put a statement like (:tree "/path/to/some/dir"), and then ASDF will look recusrively in that directory
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2020-06-15T14:20:09Z phoe: matzy_: you don't need to use ~/common-lisp/ then
2020-06-15T14:20:14Z jmercouris: s/recusrively/recursively
2020-06-15T14:20:19Z phoe: you can put your projects in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2020-06-15T14:20:28Z matzy_: ah ok, i just need to update that file with new repos then
2020-06-15T14:20:30Z phoe: Quicklisp automatically instructs ASDF to look there
2020-06-15T14:20:41Z jmercouris: you can also use symlink to your :tree directory if you wish
2020-06-15T14:20:43Z phoe: or configure ASDF the way jmercouris says
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2020-06-15T14:21:27Z matzy_: what would be best for a docker image?
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2020-06-15T14:21:42Z matzy_: *be the best approach
2020-06-15T14:21:50Z jmercouris: that is hard to say
2020-06-15T14:23:47Z matzy_: maybe phoe's approach, because then because you don't have to do any additional config
2020-06-15T14:24:33Z matzy_: just make sure the quicklisp/local-projects folder exists on the container and asdf should load from there, right?
2020-06-15T14:25:49Z jmercouris: correct
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2020-06-15T14:28:46Z matzy_: cool, thanks for the help
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2020-06-15T14:32:04Z jmercouris: no problem :-)
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2020-06-15T14:41:18Z SpaceIgor2075: Hello! What is the conventional way to organise a CL project? How do I organize files and stuff
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2020-06-15T14:43:48Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: ASDF system
2020-06-15T14:43:53Z phoe: do you use Quicklisp?
2020-06-15T14:44:18Z phoe: if yes, (ql:quickload :quickproject) (quickproject:make-project #p"~/quicklisp/local-projects/my-new-awesome-project/")
2020-06-15T14:44:27Z phoe: then (ql:quickload :my-new-awesome-project)
2020-06-15T14:44:31Z phoe: and bam, you have a skeleton ready
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2020-06-15T14:52:11Z SpaceIgor2075: Thanks
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2020-06-15T15:19:03Z adlai: SpaceIgor2075: also, think of the children, specifically, the ones who read code sequentially, and start distrusting their own minds when you use functions that you define further towards the end of the file
2020-06-15T15:19:28Z adlai: quicklisp's source is actually quite good with sequential forms.
2020-06-15T15:19:58Z adlai: not perfect, but ... quite good!
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2020-06-15T15:23:12Z matzy_: phoe that's really awesome, thanks for that adbice
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2020-06-15T15:23:25Z matzy_: *advice
2020-06-15T15:23:55Z matzy_: my question is though, what if you want a lisp api with a different language as the front-end (in this case, typescript/react)
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2020-06-15T15:25:58Z matzy_: back to symlinks?  it sucks because that's such a modern and elegant solution, what you put above
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2020-06-15T15:40:12Z phoe: matzy_: hmmmm
2020-06-15T15:40:18Z phoe: what do you mean, different language as the front-end?
2020-06-15T15:41:02Z phoe: if you have a monorepo with Lisp and JS mixed in, then ASDF/Quicklisp will only care about Lisp files - or, to be precise, about .asd files found in the directory tree
2020-06-15T15:41:24Z phoe: so you can have ~/quicklisp/local-projects/foo/server/ that has Lisp code and ~/quicklisp/local-projects/foo/client/ that has JS or whatever
2020-06-15T15:41:39Z phoe: Quicklisp and ASDF will only are about the former and it will only find and load the former
2020-06-15T15:43:34Z adlai: matzy_ is probably trying to deliver a library instead of a program.
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2020-06-15T15:44:55Z adlai: matzy_ also just vanished, moments after getting highlighted. "IRC", sigh the old folks, "just goes to show you never can help."
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2020-06-15T16:01:20Z matzy_: sorry i got disconnected somehow, i have a full stack with a typescript/react front-end being managed by npm and a hunchentoot server back-end (with easy-routes for route handling and jonathan for json handling)
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2020-06-15T16:03:21Z matzy_: *a full stack web app.  but anyway here's a link to the repo if anyone has time to take a look at the api/a general strategy of how i would get this to work with asdf or quicklisp, that would be awesome
2020-06-15T16:03:32Z phoe: matzy_: hmmmm
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2020-06-15T16:03:48Z phoe: do you have a separate repo for the Lisp backend?
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2020-06-15T16:03:59Z phoe: because you could perhaps symlink just the Lisp directory to local-projects
2020-06-15T16:04:07Z matzy_: though i guess i can just let quicklisp compile and run (server starts in main.lisp), and then run the react side with npm
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2020-06-15T16:04:15Z phoe: like, the dir containing the ASDF system and Lisp code
2020-06-15T16:04:26Z matzy_: phoe i was thinking symlink is prob my best choice here
2020-06-15T16:04:59Z matzy_: BUT i want to eventually put these in docker containers and deploy to AWS
2020-06-15T16:05:17Z matzy_: so maybe it makes sense to separate the repos?  i'm new to docker
2020-06-15T16:06:01Z phoe: no idea; playing with git repos is a fairly fluid thing, lots of organizations do multiple smaller repositories and lots of organizations go for massive monorepos that contain everything
2020-06-15T16:06:09Z phoe: I'm not going to be good advice on that
2020-06-15T16:06:40Z matzy_: no worries, i'm kinda in the same boat.  one other question, do you have to start sbcl from the directory you want asdf to make?
2020-06-15T16:06:47Z phoe: no
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2020-06-15T16:09:01Z matzy_: and same with quicklisp?
2020-06-15T16:09:07Z phoe: what do you mean, quicklisp?
2020-06-15T16:09:21Z phoe: if you have your init file set up properly, then Quicklisp is already loaded when you run SBCL
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2020-06-15T16:09:39Z phoe: and your ASDF is configured to be able to load Quicklisp-provided systems
2020-06-15T16:09:42Z matzy_: how you were telling my i could replace asdf:load-system or asdf:make with quicklisp
2020-06-15T16:10:11Z phoe: it's possible to replace asdf:load-system by ql:quickload
2020-06-15T16:10:17Z phoe: asdf:make is not replaceable by Quicklisp
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2020-06-15T16:10:45Z phoe: ASDF is the tool for loading and managing Lisp systems; Quicklisp is a tool that auto-downloads Lisp stuff from the internet and makes it available for ASDF to download
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2020-06-15T16:11:58Z matzy_: ok so asdf make actually compiles lisp programs then?  i get what quicklisp does
2020-06-15T16:12:27Z matzy_: though the whole loading/compiling thing seems a bit abstract to me, and I know C
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2020-06-15T16:12:32Z phoe: it depends!
2020-06-15T16:13:49Z phoe: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html says that asdf:make "does The Right Thing™ with your system"
2020-06-15T16:14:05Z phoe: what exactly it means is often defined by the system
2020-06-15T16:14:13Z matzy_: hmmm
2020-06-15T16:14:25Z phoe: software like https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy hooks into this in order to dump self-contained Lisp binaries
2020-06-15T16:14:33Z phoe: that you can run and they should Just Work™
2020-06-15T16:14:42Z matzy_: like a C binary?
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2020-06-15T16:15:51Z phoe: kind of, yes
2020-06-15T16:15:59Z phoe: like an executable for a given OS
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2020-06-15T16:17:33Z matzy_: ok, that makes sense
2020-06-15T16:18:19Z matzy_: and (ql:quickload) and (asdf:load-system) just make (if not there) or load an already-existing system for that sbcl session
2020-06-15T16:18:30Z phoe: if you want to see a trivial project, you can take a look at https://github.com/phoe-trash/furcadia-post-splitter/ - this has Deploy configured with Travis in order to produce nightly binaries on each commit
2020-06-15T16:18:47Z phoe: ...and, oh boy, the release section there is a mess; I gotta clean that up
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2020-06-15T16:21:05Z phoe: ......someday
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2020-06-15T16:22:48Z matzy_: hmmm you're using some things i was looking into last night but got cofused about
2020-06-15T16:22:54Z phoe: such as?
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2020-06-15T16:23:02Z matzy_: this will produce an actual binary, won't it?
2020-06-15T16:23:08Z phoe: yes, it will
2020-06-15T16:23:11Z phoe: or rather
2020-06-15T16:23:23Z phoe: it will produce a directory with an executable plus the required foreign libraries
2020-06-15T16:24:38Z matzy_: so first off, what is `:defsystem-depends-on (:qtools)`
2020-06-15T16:25:09Z matzy_: all defsystems depends on that?
2020-06-15T16:25:16Z phoe: oh right! one second
2020-06-15T16:25:28Z phoe: this tells ASDF that it needs to load Qtools before defining this system
2020-06-15T16:25:34Z phoe: Qtools uses Deploy internally
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2020-06-15T16:25:53Z phoe: this is like https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy - it also has :defsystem-depends-on (:deploy)
2020-06-15T16:26:34Z matzy_: ahhh ok
2020-06-15T16:27:06Z matzy_: and then what do each of these values actually represent:   :build-operation "qt-program-op"  :build-pathname "raptor-splitter"  :entry-point "furcadia-post-splitter:main"
2020-06-15T16:27:30Z matzy_: i assume :entry-point is the local repo for compilation
2020-06-15T16:27:35Z phoe: build-operation tells ASDF which function to actually call when asdf:make is called
2020-06-15T16:27:55Z phoe: :build-pathname tells ASDF to dump all the generated files in directory "raptor-splitter" relative to the repo
2020-06-15T16:28:14Z phoe: so that would be like ~/quicklisp/local-projects/furcadia-post-splitter/raptor-splitter/*
2020-06-15T16:28:28Z phoe: :entry-point is the function that is called when the resulting binary starts up
2020-06-15T16:28:41Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: cl-atomics is more similar to what I want, but that's already what I've started to do for B-T
2020-06-15T16:29:11Z matzy_: awesome.  thanks for the clear explanations
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2020-06-15T16:30:02Z matzy_: i'm assuming :qt-program-op is part of :qtools or :qtcore?
2020-06-15T16:30:08Z phoe: qtools
2020-06-15T16:30:11Z matzy_: or :qtui
2020-06-15T16:30:14Z matzy_: gotcha
2020-06-15T16:30:18Z phoe: https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/1f464a9c1314bbce451b2a15e189f9bc23f78361/deploy.lisp#L81
2020-06-15T16:30:32Z phoe: :qtcore and :qtgui are parts of Qt that are used in this program
2020-06-15T16:30:41Z matzy_: awesome :)
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2020-06-15T16:32:03Z matzy_: so would you move my full-stack app into two repos, or will it not matter when i have it running on two separate docker containers
2020-06-15T16:32:42Z phoe: if you have two separate containers then I guess two repos would make some more sense
2020-06-15T16:32:48Z phoe: this way you only clone what you need to each repository.
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2020-06-15T16:33:05Z phoe: and you have a clear separation between frontend that runs on npm or whatever and backend which runs on hunchentoot or whatever.
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2020-06-15T16:40:45Z matzy_: yeah i guess that does make more sense.  it just looks more organized as a single repo, though maybe i'm still stuck in the "one-repo-perproject" mindset
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2020-06-15T16:42:45Z phoe: how big is the source code?
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2020-06-15T16:43:22Z phoe: if the total repo size is megabytes, then cloning everything on both instances won't matter in practice
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2020-06-15T16:51:08Z matzy_: its tiny
2020-06-15T16:51:15Z phoe: so, later on, if it turns out to swell, you can always split the stuff
2020-06-15T16:51:40Z matzy_: i already just went and split it up
2020-06-15T16:52:05Z matzy_: figured it would make the docker files easier, esp since this is my first time with docker
2020-06-15T16:52:17Z matzy_: so i have a lot to learn to get that running with this
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2020-06-15T17:02:42Z matzy_: i do have a larger project though and i'm wondering if i should split that
2020-06-15T17:03:06Z matzy_: freak react and material-ui alone bring in so many dependencies
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2020-06-15T17:06:01Z matzy_: phoe if you're still here, i got disconnected before and forget your answer - to make a system via quicklsp, does it need to reside in the __jrjsmrtn'~/quicklisp/local-projects/" directory?
2020-06-15T17:07:15Z phoe: matzy_: that is the easiest way
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2020-06-15T17:10:27Z Hael: Hi, i have a noob question about scheme, iam reading SICP and i was wondering if it is possible (i mean there is a library or something) to use scheme for backend web development?
2020-06-15T17:10:59Z phoe: Hael: #scheme
2020-06-15T17:11:08Z phoe: you have wandered into a den of Common Lisp users
2020-06-15T17:11:25Z Hael: Oh sorry iam new to this
2020-06-15T17:11:26Z matzy_: wow phoe you're right that was easy
2020-06-15T17:11:30Z phoe: but I guess it can be used for backend stuff, sure!
2020-06-15T17:11:35Z matzy_: holy shit
2020-06-15T17:11:47Z phoe: Hael: might want to try #racket too - racket has a lot of webdev stuff.
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2020-06-15T17:12:01Z matzy_: racket kinda sucks though
2020-06-15T17:12:07Z matzy_: i originally started there
2020-06-15T17:12:19Z matzy_: cl is harder, but has so much more to it
2020-06-15T17:13:01Z Hael: I saw some people recommending racket too, anyway thx for the help!
2020-06-15T17:13:44Z phoe: Hael: #lisp might not be a good place to ask for whether Racket is a good starting point
2020-06-15T17:14:27Z phoe: IMO the best thing would be to try Racket, perhaps try webdev in other Lisp dialects, and figure out where your heart and mind tug you the strongest
2020-06-15T17:14:28Z matzy_: i still can;t believe how easy that was.  i've been using all these different asdf methods for days and kept running into weird problems
2020-06-15T17:14:40Z phoe: matzy_: such is the magic of having a fellow human help you!
2020-06-15T17:14:51Z matzy_: you are the bomb!
2020-06-15T17:14:51Z phoe: that's why #lisp exists, along with a ton of other channels
2020-06-15T17:15:06Z matzy_: it's honestly such a great channel
2020-06-15T17:15:06Z phoe: have you tried #lispweb? there were some people in there some time ago
2020-06-15T17:15:09Z phoe: <3
2020-06-15T17:15:48Z matzy_: no but i am now!
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2020-06-15T17:16:03Z matzy_: now i need to figure out how to dockerize this thing
2020-06-15T17:16:27Z matzy_: but i have actual work to do so i guess i'll leave that till later :(
2020-06-15T17:16:52Z matzy_: translating coldfusion to php is not nearly as fun as messing around with cl api;s
2020-06-15T17:16:56Z matzy_: *api's
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2020-06-15T17:45:47Z dlowe: Feel free to discuss lisp comparisons in ##lisp
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2020-06-15T20:35:38Z pve: If I subclass an ASDF component ("module" in this case), does the symbol of the subclass also need to be in the ASDF package?
2020-06-15T20:36:03Z phoe: pve: AFAIK not
2020-06-15T20:36:57Z pve: because the package for the subclass doesn't exist when the asd file is parsed, and I'm not sure if it's ok anymore to put random code into asd-files
2020-06-15T20:38:12Z pve: I mean if I can throw a defpackage into the asd-file then that would work, but I get the impression that asd files are supposed to be "clean" now
2020-06-15T20:38:35Z phoe: :defsystem-depends-on
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2020-06-15T20:41:08Z pve: but it's all inside the same defsystem form, so I don't really understand how that would let me put ... :components ((my-system:my-module-subclass "module-name")) ... in there
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2020-06-15T20:43:38Z pve: hmm I wonder if two defsystem forms in the file would work.. one dummy system with :defsystem-depends-on followed by the real system
2020-06-15T20:44:41Z pve: the asdf manual talks about this, but I'm not sure I understand what it's saying
2020-06-15T20:44:43Z pve: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Component-types-1
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2020-06-15T23:09:18Z ArthurStrong: Hi all! What would you recommend to read about lambda calculus? Aside of SICP?
2020-06-15T23:12:35Z Bike: in what context? lambda calculus is essentially a tool. what would you like to apply it to?
2020-06-15T23:12:52Z ArthurStrong: Bike: just want to start somewhere. As a noob.
2020-06-15T23:13:37Z Bike: so like, computability theory maybe?
2020-06-15T23:13:52Z ArthurStrong: Bike: maybe...
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2020-06-15T23:24:19Z spoeplau: ArthurStrong: "Types and Programming Languages" by Pierce has something on the untyped lambda calculus before going into type systems for it
2020-06-15T23:24:29Z ArthurStrong: spoeplau: thanks!
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2020-06-16T03:15:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-06-16T03:20:01Z crazybigdan: Good night
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2020-06-16T05:11:03Z phoe: heyyyy
2020-06-16T05:12:24Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe
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2020-06-16T05:39:49Z beach: Hello phoe.  Would you like some more SICL-related presentations?
2020-06-16T05:40:18Z easye: Morning beach.  I think more SICL publicity would be great.  There is so much there!
2020-06-16T05:40:45Z beach: Yeah, I think so too.  It shouldn't be hard to cook up a few more presentations.
2020-06-16T05:40:50Z easye: err, more exposition than publicity, but I guess the too are co-related.
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2020-06-16T05:41:18Z easye: s/too/two/
2020-06-16T05:41:22Z easye has more coffee.
2020-06-16T05:41:57Z beach: Heh.  I think mine kicked in finally.  I am feeling a bit smarter now than an hour ago.
2020-06-16T05:42:32Z phoe: beach: sure
2020-06-16T05:42:45Z beach: OK, I'll try to come up with something.
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2020-06-16T05:44:48Z beach: Was the presentation on first-class global environments understandable at all?  Some questions suggested that it wasn't. :(
2020-06-16T05:45:30Z phoe: I personally think the second part was slightly too condensed
2020-06-16T05:45:40Z beach: The demo?
2020-06-16T05:45:54Z phoe: The part where arrows and boxes happened.
2020-06-16T05:45:58Z easye: I understood it, but then I had the advantage of having seen the 2015 version as well.
2020-06-16T05:45:59Z beach: Yeah.  Hmm, OK.
2020-06-16T05:46:13Z beach: easye: Yeah, that helps.
2020-06-16T05:46:16Z phoe: There was a good focus on the "what" but I think it could use a few more slides about the "why"
2020-06-16T05:46:43Z beach: Let me give that some thought and see if I can squeeze it into another presentation.
2020-06-16T05:46:59Z phoe: Including perhaps individual slides for each of the building blocks of your model: what is a function object, what is a template, what is an instance of that template, what is an environment, and such.
2020-06-16T05:47:14Z beach: I see, yes.
2020-06-16T05:47:16Z phoe: And then, once you've properly defined them, you can connect these blocks together into a bigger picture.
2020-06-16T05:47:26Z phoe: That's my impression of what would help at least *me* understand the thing
2020-06-16T05:47:45Z beach: Thanks.  I'll try to take it into account.
2020-06-16T05:47:47Z easye: phoe: there is a comment on the ABCL presentation on YouTube that the audio is too quiet.  Would it make any sense to renormalize the levels up?
2020-06-16T05:48:03Z phoe: easye: hmmmm. Correct, I should have done that myself.
2020-06-16T05:48:04Z beach: It was fine for me.
2020-06-16T05:48:10Z phoe: I can renormalize and reupload the video.
2020-06-16T05:48:20Z phoe: Will do that in the evening
2020-06-16T05:48:55Z beach: Oh, the YouTube.  Sorry.
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2020-06-16T05:49:21Z easye: phoe: thanks.  I'm gonna correct the text with beach's catch an other typos, and push it to a cool URI that we can link as well.
2020-06-16T05:49:36Z phoe: easye: the issue is that this will destroy the old video link, but I can work around that.
2020-06-16T05:49:50Z phoe: I'll set the old video as unlisted and link a better version in the description.
2020-06-16T05:50:50Z easye: Have we "lost" the chat that accompanied the presentation in Twitch?  I should really get us a bridgebot that can record the things that happen there.
2020-06-16T05:51:36Z phoe: easye: not really "lost", it's still there on Twitch for about two weeks from now. I have simply gone the easier route and am uploading the videos alone without the accompanying Twitch chat.
2020-06-16T05:51:54Z phoe: However, technical contributions to what I am doing are most welcome
2020-06-16T05:52:25Z easye: Yeah, I think I volunteered to do this from last time, but I never got around to it.
2020-06-16T05:53:07Z phoe: well then
2020-06-16T05:53:09Z easye: phoe: Thanks again for the effort and initiative around the series.
2020-06-16T05:53:29Z phoe: there's a semi-perpetual microELS right now that you can direct your volunteering towards if you ever find the time and will!
2020-06-16T05:53:39Z phoe: easye: no problem, it's a pleasure to organize
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2020-06-16T06:36:39Z conjunctive: Hi, any recommendations on how to go about reading a CRLF-terminated line from a binary stream?
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2020-06-16T06:43:37Z easye: conjunctive: yer gonna either have to roll your own state machine looking for that sequence, or use FLEXI-STREAMS to "cast" the binary stream to something you can use READ-LINE with.  Warning: untested advice while I am still waking up ;)
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2020-06-16T07:00:40Z phoe: conjunctive: I assume that your binary data does *not* contain the sequence of bytes for CR LF
2020-06-16T07:05:09Z phoe: like, that isn't supposed to be interpreted as a linebreak
2020-06-16T07:07:09Z conjunctive: @phoe: I think so. The line itself is a UTF-8 encoded URL, terminated with CR LF.
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2020-06-16T07:07:33Z phoe: oh! so you only want to read a single line
2020-06-16T07:07:40Z conjunctive: Yup!
2020-06-16T07:07:48Z conjunctive: (at least for now)
2020-06-16T07:07:56Z phoe: I assume, you could use FLEXI-STREAMS to turn the binary stream into a character one with CRLF line endings, and then READ-LINE on it
2020-06-16T07:08:48Z phoe: and/or read bytes until you encounter #x0D #x0A and then convert the byte vector into a string
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2020-06-16T07:20:11Z conjunctive: Will give that a try. Thank you @phoe & @easye
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2020-06-16T08:44:35Z MetaYan: The chat from the twitch talk is here now: https://lisp.metatem.net/olm/651389170.json
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2020-06-16T08:53:51Z phoe: MetaYan: :O nice! thanks
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2020-06-16T10:43:26Z loke: Is there some standard (i.e. "good") implementation of immutable trees? I.e., one where I can insert elements which returns a new copy with as much sharing as possible?
2020-06-16T10:44:33Z jackdaniel: #'cons and creative use of sublis ;)
2020-06-16T10:44:40Z jackdaniel: s/sublis/#'sublis/
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2020-06-16T10:45:16Z jackdaniel: bonus point for being in the cl standard
2020-06-16T10:45:22Z loke: Yeah. :-)  I know :-)
2020-06-16T10:45:31Z loke: I'd like something that is better at balancing the tree though.
2020-06-16T10:45:48Z jackdaniel: that falls into a creative use of sublis, doesn't it? :p
2020-06-16T10:45:55Z loke: Usually I use red-black trees for mutable trees, but if I want some immutability (heavy parallelism with rare updates)
2020-06-16T10:46:08Z loke: Oh yeah, problem is that I'm not very creative. :-(
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2020-06-16T10:47:57Z phoe: loke: hmmm
2020-06-16T10:48:06Z phoe: shka_: do you have anything related to that?
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2020-06-16T10:49:56Z phoe: loke: https://github.com/ndantam/sycamore
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2020-06-16T10:55:49Z loke: Oh nice. Thanks!
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2020-06-16T12:11:46Z Josh_2: Afternoon all
2020-06-16T12:12:20Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-06-16T12:17:40Z Josh_2: Hey beach hows the day going?
2020-06-16T12:26:21Z beach: Josh_2: Not bad.  froggey just gave me permission to extract the integrated Mezzano code for both Gray streams and Common Lisp streams to a separate repository.
2020-06-16T12:26:36Z beach: That saves me from defining the same thing in SICL.
2020-06-16T12:27:21Z beach: But it would be great if I could delegate that work to someone.  I guess I'll take applications including CVs for that. :)
2020-06-16T12:27:27Z beach: Josh_2: How about you?
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2020-06-16T12:29:32Z beach: And phoe told me that my presentation of first-class global environments was not that clear.  So I am thinking of preparing some more, perhaps a bit longer, ones.  I still have to present the compile-time aspect of such environments as well.
2020-06-16T12:30:13Z phoe: beach: very nice, regarding the streams
2020-06-16T12:30:28Z beach: Yeah, thanks!
2020-06-16T12:32:04Z beach: Pretty soon, there will be little more than the bootstrapping procedure left in the SICL repository. :)
2020-06-16T12:33:01Z beach: Nothing prevents me from extracting the CLOS+MOP implementation.  Though, of course, anyone who would like to use it would have to use the SICL bootstrapping technique. :)
2020-06-16T12:34:06Z beach: I mean: (defclass t () () (:metaclass built-in-class)) might not be very "operational" in most Common Lisp implementations.
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2020-06-16T12:37:18Z phoe: not only you define a class named T, but you define it in terms of BUILT-IN-CLASS
2020-06-16T12:37:35Z beach: Indeed.
2020-06-16T12:37:42Z phoe: that's two heresies^WMOP aspects that contemporary implementations might not want to indulge in
2020-06-16T12:38:04Z beach: I suspect that's true.
2020-06-16T12:38:56Z beach: The meaning of the code is perfectly clear though.  And I claim that it's the best way of expressing that meaning.
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2020-06-16T12:42:27Z phoe: I mean, well
2020-06-16T12:42:37Z phoe: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/8c9be87374cdfbf9b46b698f114fba2ca16ea79d/src/pcl/defs.lisp#L228-L232
2020-06-16T12:43:08Z phoe: oh, there's a note in there
2020-06-16T12:44:07Z Bike: no reference...
2020-06-16T12:44:52Z beach: If that code is operational, that's very good.
2020-06-16T12:45:06Z Bike: "A built-in class is a class whose instances have restricted capabilities or special representations. Attempting to use defclass to define subclasses of a built-in class signals an error of type error." oh, well
2020-06-16T12:45:50Z Bike: t prolly can't be a built-in-class, then, strictly speaking
2020-06-16T12:45:55Z beach: I am perfectly allowed to do that in a first-class global environment that is then not exposed to the ordinary user.
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2020-06-16T12:46:01Z Bike: plus "Calling make-instance to create an instance of a built-in class signals an error of type error. Calling slot-value on an instance of a built-in class signals an error of type error." etc
2020-06-16T12:46:51Z beach: Now that I agree with. :)
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2020-06-16T12:47:29Z Bike: but standard objects are also instances of t, and so on
2020-06-16T12:47:58Z beach: Oh, yeah, that's not written very well is it.
2020-06-16T12:48:34Z phoe: this should say "direct instances" instead perhaps
2020-06-16T12:48:34Z Bike: could be "direct instances" I guess
2020-06-16T12:48:37Z beach: yeah.
2020-06-16T12:48:37Z phoe: Bike: ha
2020-06-16T12:49:27Z phoe: so if that's our reading of that part of the spec, can T be a built-in-class?
2020-06-16T12:49:40Z beach: It is, yes.
2020-06-16T12:49:45Z phoe: CCL says that it can
2020-06-16T12:50:09Z Bike: that's not my reading of the spec, it's what i think it maybe ought to say instead but doesn't.
2020-06-16T12:52:00Z beach: What does it say?
2020-06-16T12:53:33Z phoe: I mean, http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/t_t.htm says that T is a System Class
2020-06-16T12:53:48Z phoe: whereas http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/26_glo_s.htm#system_class then says that this class might be of type built-in-class
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2020-06-16T12:54:07Z beach: phoe: "system class" is not a real thing.
2020-06-16T12:54:19Z beach: It is a term that means "can be this or that".
2020-06-16T12:54:27Z phoe: beach: yes
2020-06-16T12:54:51Z phoe: my understanding is, a class which is a system class is allowed to be a built-in-class; so T is allowed to be a built-in-class
2020-06-16T12:54:58Z beach: Yes.
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2020-06-16T12:58:52Z phoe: OK, then I guess my understanding aligns with yours
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2020-06-16T14:27:52Z Kozo: Good Morning =]
2020-06-16T14:28:02Z phoe: heyyyy
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2020-06-16T20:12:02Z shka_: hello guys
2020-06-16T20:12:53Z shka_: so i was making a common lisp system providing a statistical learning functionality
2020-06-16T20:13:05Z shka_: right now random forests and gradient boosting
2020-06-16T20:13:18Z shka_: here is an example https://github.com/sirherrbatka/statistical-learning/blob/master/examples/covtype.lisp
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2020-06-16T20:17:23Z Josh_2: shka_: very cool :)
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2020-06-16T21:12:37Z jeosol: shka_: did you by any chance happen to benchmark this with Python for a runtime comparison
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2020-06-16T21:14:34Z jeosol: I am running the higgs-boson challenge (Gabor's lisp code code)  example on linux box. Training still going (5 days). Gabor said it took one day on his GPU.
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2020-06-16T21:17:25Z shka_: jeosol: first of, i don't do GPU calculations
2020-06-16T21:17:42Z shka_: secondly, yes, i compared my random forest against sk-learn
2020-06-16T21:17:56Z jeosol: shka_: it's not a critique of what you did, I am just making a comment running a similar machine system.
2020-06-16T21:18:10Z jeosol: what you did is great.
2020-06-16T21:18:31Z shka_: it is faster to learn, slower to predict
2020-06-16T21:18:44Z shka_: 16 seconds vs 10 seconds on learning time
2020-06-16T21:18:53Z jeosol: There was a side conversion with the maintainer of clml library about adding some connectionist methods to the library, but not sure his plans for that.
2020-06-16T21:19:10Z shka_: gradient boosting i didn't test, but you would probably want to use LGBM or something like that anyway
2020-06-16T21:19:46Z shka_: i plan to implement some of the LGBM tricks to speed gradient boosting in the future
2020-06-16T21:19:59Z shka_: but not all of those are simple
2020-06-16T21:20:04Z jeosol: shka_: very cool.
2020-06-16T21:21:21Z jeosol: shka_: is this hobby or for an application system.
2020-06-16T21:21:39Z jeosol: Have you checked out the clml library?
2020-06-16T21:23:38Z shka_: i checked, it is fine but I wanted to go into different direction than CLML
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2020-06-16T21:24:38Z shka_: namely, i wanted to have extendable, object oriented architecture
2020-06-16T21:25:02Z jeosol: shka_: ok. I am just asking. I look into assembling a small task force for these libraries in CL, but I recall CLML had a restrictive license and it was hard getting a hold of the maintainers ...
2020-06-16T21:25:24Z shka_: well, statistical-learning has a BSD license
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2020-06-16T21:26:07Z shka_: as for OO: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/statistical-learning/blob/master/source/gradient-boost-tree/methods.lisp
2020-06-16T21:26:08Z jeosol: I am not a license expert, I recall, someone pointed me to the issue with CLML when I wanted to fork and extend it. So I wanted to discuss with the guys first.
2020-06-16T21:26:45Z shka_: oddly enough, there is no performance penalty in practice from OO style in ML whatsoever
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2020-06-16T21:27:12Z shka_: because you dispatch one per a large array
2020-06-16T21:27:17Z jeosol: shka_: thanks for the link. very nice code
2020-06-16T21:27:46Z shka_: thank you, I spent today to refactor it
2020-06-16T21:28:04Z shka_: anyway, I am not getting money out of this project
2020-06-16T21:28:17Z jeosol: I think the OOP approach is cool, especially if someone wants to test another purity index or other techniques
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2020-06-16T21:28:39Z shka_: i made it because I lost my job and I had lot's of time on my hand
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2020-06-16T21:28:55Z shka_: so i decided to build something that would be useful in my past project
2020-06-16T21:29:07Z jeosol: that's cool. Are east of west of the pond?
2020-06-16T21:29:11Z jeosol: of -> or
2020-06-16T21:29:17Z shka_: east
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2020-06-16T21:29:43Z shka_: as for other tools, i also have a data fame library called vellum
2020-06-16T21:29:50Z shka_: it is used for data processing in examples
2020-06-16T21:30:01Z jeosol: yeah, I saw that
2020-06-16T21:30:13Z shka_: it is pretty nifty
2020-06-16T21:30:18Z jeosol: similar to pandas? will check to in detail later.
2020-06-16T21:30:40Z shka_: no, i wanted to emulate R + dplyr style in CL
2020-06-16T21:30:49Z shka_: so it is not like pandas
2020-06-16T21:31:14Z jeosol: ok.
2020-06-16T21:31:42Z shka_: i think that emulating pandas in CL is a waste
2020-06-16T21:31:46Z jeosol: pandas drives nuts (my opinion), but I have to learn it. I will take a look at the code in detail.
2020-06-16T21:32:07Z shka_: because design decision of pandas are driven by need of NOT executing python code
2020-06-16T21:32:40Z jeosol: I was recently looking at some videos with these tree-based methods (decision tree, ada-boost, gradient-boost, etc)
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2020-06-16T21:34:17Z shka_: oh, and also
2020-06-16T21:34:27Z shka_: vellum integrates into cl-ds
2020-06-16T21:34:29Z shka_: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/statistical-learning/blob/06d6f100f23d7d5119a9ee66e876f886a9f1b40b/examples/mushrooms.lisp#L42
2020-06-16T21:35:00Z shka_: so cl-ds is another project of mine which has this streaming language
2020-06-16T21:35:25Z shka_: there are group-by, distinct and various aggregations
2020-06-16T21:36:03Z jeosol: the (:alias ...) forms for the columns can be generated by a macro?
2020-06-16T21:36:20Z shka_: not even a macro
2020-06-16T21:36:24Z shka_: it is a list
2020-06-16T21:36:29Z jeosol: the code layout is very nice.
2020-06-16T21:37:04Z shka_: one thing i really like about vellum is transform function
2020-06-16T21:37:11Z jeosol: yeah, I meant generating the list automatically
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2020-06-16T21:37:53Z jeosol: shka_: just saw the ->, which is supposed to emulate R, missed it initially
2020-06-16T21:38:13Z shka_: well, ~> is more like dplyr pipe
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2020-06-16T21:38:37Z shka_: or exactly like in clojure
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2020-06-16T21:38:59Z jeosol: ok. R is the other direction <-
2020-06-16T21:39:17Z shka_: well, <- is variable assignment in R
2020-06-16T21:39:26Z shka_: it is for something different
2020-06-16T21:39:44Z shka_: anyway, transform shows how i wanted to have something that feels like R
2020-06-16T21:39:58Z shka_: vellum:body is a macro
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2020-06-16T21:41:01Z shka_: and if you want let's say change column with the name TEST you can just write (transform table (body (test) (setf test (something-new))))
2020-06-16T21:41:29Z shka_: and this will do this table wide, in place if you ask nicely
2020-06-16T21:41:58Z shka_: but it is also exception safe so if you have error midway you won't clobber your existing data even if in-place is T
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2020-06-16T21:42:50Z shka_: oh, and columns are sparse so if you have huge amounts of nulls in data that's fine
2020-06-16T21:45:00Z shka_: anyway, i wanted something easy and friendly to use, even at the cost of performance
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2020-06-16T21:45:09Z shka_: and pandas drives me nuts as well :P
2020-06-16T21:45:48Z jeosol: skha_: hahah. Comment about pandas. I just hated the changes in the api, something you learn, stops working after a while, and operations are not symmetric sometimes
2020-06-16T21:47:27Z jeosol: shka_: I think your libraries are cool even if they focused solely in the tree-based methods. And yes, optimizations can be something to worry about later.
2020-06-16T21:47:32Z mgsk: Xach: is "--silent t" supposed to suppress messages like "To load ..."? It doesn't seem to be working here
2020-06-16T21:47:36Z mgsk: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/VKQxWldC/
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2020-06-16T21:48:03Z shka_: jeosol: i think that there is to much to learn in pandas period
2020-06-16T21:48:38Z shka_: i mean, i want to have ONE effective way to batch change values in table
2020-06-16T21:48:46Z jeosol: shka_: very true. And it tries to do a lot, including database type operations
2020-06-16T21:49:04Z shka_: and because of pandas design, there are a few of those
2020-06-16T21:49:56Z shka_: yeah, that's nice and cool, but i would rather have API that allows me to perform such operations without separate support in library
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2020-06-16T21:51:30Z shka_: for instance, here is a how i implemented constructing data frames from postgres using postmodern
2020-06-16T21:51:32Z shka_: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/vellum/blob/f62e4eb9e734b701a38d3b1e4f9d525a3bab5c98/src/integration/postmodern.lisp#L60
2020-06-16T21:51:37Z jeosol: shka_: I didn't mean the database operations are good. I would prefer if it's doing simple things, I am not a python expert. I have to invest time to learn it I guess.
2020-06-16T21:52:23Z jeosol: nice you have postmodern integration.
2020-06-16T21:52:59Z shka_: well, the point is that if i didn't have postmodern integration, it would be very 25 lines of code to add
2020-06-16T21:53:16Z shka_: which is nice if you have some sort of triangle screws in your company
2020-06-16T21:53:28Z shka_: (which i had, a LOT)
2020-06-16T21:55:18Z shka_: anyway, working on vellum convinced me that CL is in concept a better language for data processing than python
2020-06-16T21:55:22Z shka_: but it needs tools
2020-06-16T21:55:41Z jeosol: Yeah it needs tools.
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2020-06-16T21:56:24Z shka_: and as for statistical-learning, i don't think that it is supposed to be restricted to tree models
2020-06-16T21:56:35Z jeosol: I had an email exchange with gabor about this, and that was his sentiment also, and opting for python, the array libraries are slow (his comment) on the CL side, you could do things to use Cuda, but his said tools and libraries are lacking
2020-06-16T21:57:13Z jeosol: shka_: my tree comment, was just one of focus, like it's complete and then to other techniques. Please ignore it.
2020-06-16T21:57:33Z jeosol: I was recently looking at those tree methods and trying to understand their differences
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2020-06-16T21:57:46Z jeosol: shka_: once again, good work.
2020-06-16T21:58:09Z shka_: in practice i want to have generalised random forest, causal forests and some uplift trees
2020-06-16T21:58:12Z shka_: so all trees
2020-06-16T21:58:34Z shka_: but if somebody would want to work on something different that's fine
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2020-06-16T21:59:28Z shka_: but not neural network
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2020-06-16T21:59:47Z shka_: they need a distinct approach from software architecture point of view
2020-06-16T22:00:27Z jeosol: shka_: ok, thought your other comment meant you didn't like NNs
2020-06-16T22:01:17Z shka_: eh, i kinda don't like NNs, but I consider them useful and sometimes even the best option out there
2020-06-16T22:01:50Z shka_: but i never default to NNs
2020-06-16T22:02:14Z shka_: they are PITA to work with in general
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2020-06-16T22:02:29Z jeosol: same. they are abused for sure and can give bad results, and then if you get a point that's slightly away from what it has seen, problem starts
2020-06-16T22:02:38Z shka_: and so far my clients really want models to be interpretable
2020-06-16T22:02:38Z jeosol: since they are mostly interpolators, in general
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2020-06-16T22:02:54Z jeosol: explainable?
2020-06-16T22:03:09Z shka_: yeah
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2020-06-16T22:04:04Z shka_: past midnight now
2020-06-16T22:04:08Z shka_: time to bed
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2020-06-16T22:04:29Z jeosol: ok, good night. nice conversation
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2020-06-16T22:04:47Z jeosol: thanks for the sharing the ML libraries
2020-06-16T22:05:02Z shka_: jeosol: if you want to build collection of data science tools i can say that cl-ds + vellum + statistical-learning seem to work for me pretty good
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2020-06-16T22:05:31Z shka_: obviously, that partly because i made it to my likings
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2020-06-16T22:05:56Z jeosol: ok: I'd looking into that. My interest is to build systems that are explainable with some audit trail. So I dabbled a bit with prolog
2020-06-16T22:06:05Z shka_: heh
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2020-06-16T22:06:15Z shka_: i wrote a prolog interpreter as well xD
2020-06-16T22:06:20Z shka_: but it is a toy
2020-06-16T22:06:21Z jeosol: I will see what simple problem I want to tackle first
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2020-06-16T22:06:50Z jeosol: that's nice. I am not prolog expert just that I was looking into expert systems/ explanations/audit trail
2020-06-16T22:07:12Z jeosol: not -> no
2020-06-16T22:07:19Z shka_: take a look into bayesian networks
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2020-06-16T22:07:31Z jeosol: wow, ok, that has been recommended a few times now.
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2020-06-16T22:07:36Z shka_: yup
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2020-06-16T22:07:50Z shka_: they are uncertainty aware
2020-06-16T22:07:52Z jeosol: I really should look into it.
2020-06-16T22:07:58Z shka_: and that matters a lot in practice
2020-06-16T22:08:05Z jeosol: that's great too. It does.
2020-06-16T22:08:34Z jeosol: input data is uncertainty, and so that has to be propagated to the predictions
2020-06-16T22:08:43Z shka_: if i ever get all my trees into statistical learning, i would try to go for bayesian learning
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2020-06-16T22:09:02Z shka_: while hoping that somebody figure out lisp version of torch
2020-06-16T22:09:20Z shka_: jeosol: also, belief modeling
2020-06-16T22:09:23Z jeosol: haha. Is is possible to get funding for the project
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2020-06-16T22:09:34Z jeosol: you mean like py-torch?
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2020-06-16T22:09:52Z shka_: up
2020-06-16T22:09:56Z shka_: *yup
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2020-06-16T22:10:21Z shka_: pytorch style of architecture could work in lisp even better then in python
2020-06-16T22:10:35Z shka_: (IMHO)
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2020-06-16T22:14:01Z shka_: petalisp would be very handy for doing this, but it has a radioactive license
2020-06-16T22:14:24Z shka_: which really complicates commercial use
2020-06-16T22:17:06Z jeosol: I see.
2020-06-16T22:17:18Z shka_: shame, really
2020-06-16T22:17:22Z shka_: good night
2020-06-16T22:17:26Z jeosol: We should try to assembly a task for these.
2020-06-16T22:17:34Z jeosol: We can discuss more later.
2020-06-16T22:17:46Z jeosol: I mean task force. I am fasting so my brain needs food
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2020-06-17T00:47:15Z seoushi: is it possible to define a type of a field in a defstruct that is nil or a certain type? I got the normal type declaration working but can't find an example of an "optional" value like this
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2020-06-17T00:48:08Z seoushi: this is in cl (sbcl if it matters)
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2020-06-17T00:50:19Z Bike: (or null whatever)
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2020-06-17T00:52:39Z seoushi: Awesome. That works. Thanks
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2020-06-17T02:11:37Z aeth: shangul: (deftype maybe (type) `(or null ,type))
2020-06-17T02:11:48Z aeth: shangul: Then you can do (maybe foo) instead of (or null foo) if that's easier for you to remember
2020-06-17T02:11:57Z aeth: I guess (optional foo) could be another name for it
2020-06-17T02:12:59Z shangul: :)
2020-06-17T02:13:02Z shangul: Thanks
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2020-06-17T03:10:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-06-17T03:14:51Z holycow: hallo
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2020-06-17T03:15:34Z holycow: you get on irc really early
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2020-06-17T03:21:09Z beach: I wake up early.  It's a genetic defect in my family.
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2020-06-17T03:38:50Z kinope^: Hello
2020-06-17T03:39:02Z no-defun-allowed: Hello kinope^
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2020-06-17T04:00:58Z kinope^: I can define message handlers for each state of a state machine class, and state machines can inherit behavior from another class. but I am drawing blanks when trying to figure out how I could specifically redefine a single 'message->action' 'case' inside a method of a class, so that I don't have to rewrite the entire message handler to just to
2020-06-17T04:00:59Z kinope^: change the behavior of, for instance, an on-entry event/message action. I realise I may be staring down a deep rabbit hole here, but can anyone please point me in the right direction?
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2020-06-17T04:14:27Z beach: kinope^: I guess I must have missed some previous messages, because I don't understand what you are referring to.  Classes in Common Lisp don't have methods, for instance.  And I think of a state machine not as a class but usually as a big TAGBODY with the tags being states.
2020-06-17T04:15:31Z beach: You must have a particular architecture for your state machine in mind.
2020-06-17T04:16:11Z beach: But perhaps you have already told us about that particular architecture?
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2020-06-17T04:21:15Z kinope^: No, no messages were missed, I just started writing in the middle of my thoughts haha. I still get confused between generic functions an class methods of other object systems of other languages. I am putting together a hierarchical state machine event processor, so I was hoping to piggy-back on lisp's class system to save needing to figure out how
2020-06-17T04:21:16Z kinope^: states or submachines can inherit behavior from superstates.
2020-06-17T04:22:00Z beach: How is a state represented in your state machine?
2020-06-17T04:22:21Z kinope^: as a generic function
2020-06-17T04:22:34Z beach: ?
2020-06-17T04:22:37Z kinope^: it contains an event handler
2020-06-17T04:23:04Z kinope^: so events can be dispatched to the state
2020-06-17T04:23:09Z beach: A state machine is like a graph of states, with transitions between states.
2020-06-17T04:23:44Z beach: So a state is a generic function.  I guess the state is kept in a variable somewhere, or perhaps in a slot of a class instance?
2020-06-17T04:24:16Z beach: So you must be doing (setf (state machine) #'<some-generic-function>)?
2020-06-17T04:24:56Z beach: So the messages you are talking about, are they what determine the transitions?
2020-06-17T04:26:07Z kinope^: the current state is stored in a class member of the state machine class. transitions are handled by a generic function transition that handles transitions between nested states according to statechart semantics
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2020-06-17T04:26:48Z kinope^: yes, messages are a combination of a symbol and optionally some extra data related to the message/event
2020-06-17T04:26:53Z beach: Nested states? What does it mean for generic functions to be nested?
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2020-06-17T04:30:40Z kinope^: a state is nested so that common behavior can be handled by a state lower in the hierarchy, if a state doesn't handle a message then the message is delivered to the state down one level and so on until the message is handled or is discarded.
2020-06-17T04:33:15Z beach: kinope^: I am afraid I must give up on trying to understand what you mean.  The terminology you use does not look like anything I know about state machines.  But then, I am notorious for being unable to understand what people mean.
2020-06-17T04:33:47Z kinope^: When the message is dispatched it will be handled by the state/generic function, if not then the function returns a value that indicates that it wasn't handled and the dispatcher can try with a state higher up in the heirarchy
2020-06-17T04:33:48Z beach: Perhaps you have better luck with some other #lisp participants.
2020-06-17T04:34:00Z kinope^: okay thanks beach
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2020-06-17T04:37:31Z kinope^: I should have mentioned that I am looking at the semantics of Statecharts more specifically the semantics defined in the UML standard. Not finite state machines, but hierarcical state machines
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2020-06-17T04:48:48Z White_Flame: depending on how featureful you want your state machine to be, each state can simply be a lambda that takes an event parameter
2020-06-17T04:49:05Z White_Flame: and returns a lambda to use next (which could even be itself)
2020-06-17T04:49:19Z White_Flame: wrap the whole set in a LABELS so each function object is visible by name
2020-06-17T04:56:04Z kinope^: Thanks White_flame, yes that was along the lines of my original implementation. As state transitions can be pretty complex in a HSM they have to be handled by a dedicated function. That doesn't rule out using lambda or closures, but I would have to implement my own methods for behavioral inheritance which the object system already supplies.
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2020-06-17T05:10:09Z White_Flame: kinope^: that can still be encapsulated in single function objects
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2020-06-17T05:10:37Z paule32: hello
2020-06-17T05:10:41Z White_Flame: the state machine basically becomes an list of function objects
2020-06-17T05:10:57Z White_Flame: with one passing its event to the next if not handled
2020-06-17T05:11:07Z White_Flame: and if you have peers at a level, it fans out
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2020-06-17T05:11:35Z White_Flame: but yeah, this would be more a generated implementation, not really what you'd write by hand
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2020-06-17T05:12:07Z White_Flame: with stuff like this, I start by writing how I'd like to specify the state machine, and then get that running
2020-06-17T05:13:20Z paule32: i have problem with a script, in line: 13  http://dpaste.com/0V8CXXF
2020-06-17T05:13:28Z paule32: sbcl
2020-06-17T05:14:18Z no-defun-allowed: There's problems in all the other lines, too.
2020-06-17T05:14:45Z White_Flame: paule32: your parens are wrong
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2020-06-17T05:15:05Z White_Flame: you have 1 set around all your slot stuff, none of which are grouped together
2020-06-17T05:15:37Z paule32: oh, then i mess the docs
2020-06-17T05:15:39Z White_Flame: and your :include is also in the wrong spot lower down
2020-06-17T05:16:46Z paule32: before you write more, please let me time to correct it, i try ...
2020-06-17T05:17:07Z paule32: i will be in background some minutes
2020-06-17T05:17:07Z no-defun-allowed: When providing slot options, the slot name and options all go in one list, eg (defstruct led ... (color '(255 255 255) :type list))
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2020-06-17T05:17:54Z paule32: thanks for your hints
2020-06-17T05:18:05Z White_Flame: clhs defstruct
2020-06-17T05:18:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm
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2020-06-17T05:18:23Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know what BAUTYPE means, or does, because ^LED means nothing (it would return led in Smalltalk, which is notable for not being Common Lisp), and because structure classes aren't bound in the variable namespace.
2020-06-17T05:20:43Z paule32: no-defun-allowed: like a brick, not colored red, but colored black, as example
2020-06-17T05:21:15Z kinope^: White-Flame: Cheers, I need to take a walk and consider my options more fully.
2020-06-17T05:21:20Z no-defun-allowed: How do bricks relate...to what I think is an electrical model of some kind?
2020-06-17T05:21:48Z paule32: hehe, yes, right, stupid example
2020-06-17T05:22:04Z paule32: i am in germany, and have to translate some parts ...
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2020-06-17T05:26:19Z no-defun-allowed: Furthermore, if you haven't got it working at all, I wouldn't add type declarations. Right now, they just make the code longer and less amenable to to changing representations of things.
2020-06-17T05:27:42Z White_Flame: also, write a single defstruct and getting it working first, playign with it at the repl, as opposed to writing a full file of things that aren't even syntactically correct yet
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2020-06-17T05:28:10Z matzy_: anyone have experience with cl and docker?
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2020-06-17T05:33:15Z beach: matzy_: I believe the Clasp people use docker.
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2020-06-17T05:36:34Z matzy_: doesn't seem like clasp has much to do with lisp
2020-06-17T05:37:20Z beach: Go to #clasp.  It is a Common Lisp implantation that interoperates with C++.
2020-06-17T05:37:44Z beach: implementation.
2020-06-17T05:37:46Z beach: *sigh*
2020-06-17T05:38:07Z matzy_: really?  interesting that they dont even mention that in the repo.  awesome
2020-06-17T05:38:15Z matzy_: thanks!
2020-06-17T05:38:19Z beach: Sure.
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2020-06-17T05:43:16Z paule32: what is asp = action script programming = aka windows ?
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2020-06-17T05:48:53Z easye: paule32: "ASP" was Active Server Pages, a MSFT Windows technology for HTTP server pages
2020-06-17T05:49:11Z paule32: oh
2020-06-17T05:49:18Z paule32: lisp for web?
2020-06-17T05:49:41Z easye: No, I don't know of any connection between Lisp and ASP
2020-06-17T05:50:12Z paule32: scroll up ... clasp
2020-06-17T05:50:25Z paule32: maybe i misunderstood the other's
2020-06-17T05:50:32Z easye: I belive ya id.
2020-06-17T05:50:41Z no-defun-allowed: Clasp doesn't stand for anything to my knowledge.
2020-06-17T05:51:39Z paule32: ok, i will not stress you, please forget my question in this pov
2020-06-17T05:51:48Z paule32: pov = point of view :)
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2020-06-17T06:01:09Z paule32: how can i create a "dummy" defstruct, for a ^make-unknow  part ?
2020-06-17T06:02:25Z paule32: hello Bourne, you are the inventor of bash?
2020-06-17T06:03:16Z beach: paule32: Off topic.  And you need to read up on your computing history.
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2020-06-17T06:36:12Z flip214: paule32: a structure cannot be redefined later. If you want to change it's contents (slots) later on, use an (initially empty) class.
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2020-06-17T07:09:23Z White_Flame: paule32: you can just defstruct later on, letting your prior definitions be references to undefined functions.  You'll lose inline support, but that's probably the only way to do what you want with structs
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2020-06-17T07:11:09Z paule32: ok
2020-06-17T07:11:20Z White_Flame: though why you'd want to do that is another question
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2020-06-17T07:14:27Z paule32: ok, the defstruct works fine
2020-06-17T07:14:37Z paule32: now, defun bauteil
2020-06-17T07:14:46Z paule32: does not work
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2020-06-17T07:16:28Z phoe: what is defun bauteil
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2020-06-17T07:25:44Z ffwacom: is there a standard way to define subpackages in lisp? I'm using sbcl if it's relevant
2020-06-17T07:25:54Z phoe: ffwacom: nope
2020-06-17T07:26:04Z phoe: if by subpackages you mean some kind of hierarchical packages.
2020-06-17T07:26:11Z ffwacom: yes exactly
2020-06-17T07:26:20Z phoe: it's common to name packages like FOO, FOO.BAR, FOO.BAZ and such
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2020-06-17T07:26:31Z phoe: I have also seen and used FOO/BAR, FOO/BAZ
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2020-06-17T07:26:40Z paule32: phoe: this should be a component structure - a structure what all electrical parts have
2020-06-17T07:26:51Z paule32: phoe:  let it be property
2020-06-17T07:27:02Z ffwacom: phoe: ok that works, cheers
2020-06-17T07:27:22Z phoe: ffwacom: these packages are not hierarchical in any way other than having human-readable names that seem hierarchical
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2020-06-17T07:27:36Z phoe: there's nothing to enforce that structure on the Lisp side; to the system, the set of packages is completely flat
2020-06-17T07:27:50Z phoe: it's good enough for most practical purposes though
2020-06-17T07:28:05Z ffwacom: that's fine, I just need something for my own organisation
2020-06-17T07:28:31Z ffwacom: afaik you can access definitions from packages even if they arn't exported?
2020-06-17T07:28:35Z phoe: the above approach with using #\. or #\/ as a separator should work fine then
2020-06-17T07:28:41Z phoe: ffwacom: yes, using foo::bar
2020-06-17T07:28:44Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, but you should export them.
2020-06-17T07:28:52Z phoe: it's not a good idea, but it's possible
2020-06-17T07:29:03Z easye: And note that even though a language like Java may look like it has hierarchical packages, com.example.foo has nothing to do with what is present com.example.
2020-06-17T07:29:19Z easye: err "present in com.example"
2020-06-17T07:29:40Z no-defun-allowed: People don't export symbols that they don't want you to use, basically.
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2020-06-17T07:30:39Z ffwacom: right that makes sense
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2020-06-17T07:50:06Z shka_: hello
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2020-06-17T07:50:28Z beach: Hello shka_.
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2020-06-17T08:34:54Z kpoeck: ::notify matzy_ Please have a look at https://github.com/clasp-developers/clasp/blob/master/README.md There certainly it is explained that clasp is a common lisp compiler
2020-06-17T08:34:55Z Colleen: kpoeck: Got it. I'll let matzy_ know as soon as possible.
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2020-06-17T08:44:10Z paule32: now, the source code look so:  http://dpaste.com/3ER5YDX
2020-06-17T08:44:37Z paule32: not logic included, only test structures and c++ inheritance
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2020-06-17T08:45:20Z shka_: paule32: care about style criticism?
2020-06-17T08:45:26Z beach: How come you don't act upon advice given to you.  You still have parentheses by themselves on a line.
2020-06-17T08:45:38Z beach: paule32: Your indentation is wrong.
2020-06-17T08:45:40Z beach: Still.
2020-06-17T08:45:46Z shka_: also
2020-06-17T08:45:57Z beach: You don't use earmuffs on special variables.
2020-06-17T08:45:59Z shka_: NO * * AROUND SPECIAL VARIABLE NAMES!!!
2020-06-17T08:46:02Z paule32: yeah guy's
2020-06-17T08:46:11Z beach: Your number of semicolons is wrong.
2020-06-17T08:46:14Z paule32: i funny, that the code works
2020-06-17T08:46:26Z paule32: ok, now, i should ident the code
2020-06-17T08:46:33Z shka_: i can't stress how important the * * is
2020-06-17T08:46:41Z shka_: *stress enough
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2020-06-17T08:46:59Z no-defun-allowed: That's why it's "style". The compiler can read it, but it's not nice for humans to read code with bad formatting.
2020-06-17T08:47:02Z paule32: *stdio* ?
2020-06-17T08:47:06Z shka_: yes
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2020-06-17T08:47:25Z shka_: because of how dynamic scope works, not using ** is asking for trouble
2020-06-17T08:47:40Z no-defun-allowed: "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute."
2020-06-17T08:47:59Z paule32: no-defun-allowed:  i came from the pascal/c way, but now, i am subway lisp
2020-06-17T08:48:29Z paule32: there are completly other style guide
2020-06-17T08:49:23Z shka_: paule32: that's fine, i mean there are even cases where closing parenthesis on the new line makes some sense, but try to follow lisp style guide
2020-06-17T08:49:38Z shka_: especially since EVERYBODY do
2020-06-17T08:49:49Z shka_: like, nobody names lisp variables foo_bar
2020-06-17T08:49:51Z shka_: only foo-bar
2020-06-17T08:50:09Z beach: paule32: But you have been told, repeatedly, what some of the rules are for Common Lisp.  Still you expose code for others to read that doesn't follow the advice you were given.
2020-06-17T08:51:15Z paule32: you, as guru, can read lisp fine, but some is completrly new - because i don't code in lisp everyday, so i have a afine to mix up the code
2020-06-17T08:51:19Z paule32: that the problem
2020-06-17T08:51:58Z paule32: i try to respect you all
2020-06-17T08:53:06Z shka_: paule32: well, sorry for beating you with a stick, but that's the only way to enforce standards :P
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2020-06-17T08:53:47Z easye: "beatings will continue until morale improves", eh?
2020-06-17T08:54:17Z shka_: we may also put some nails into the stick
2020-06-17T08:54:36Z shka_: if morale does not improve
2020-06-17T08:54:56Z shka_: seriously, though
2020-06-17T08:55:03Z paule32: in my eyes, i respect you very big, and i will hold on lisp, when the old skool guy's not arrriveable anymore ...
2020-06-17T08:55:03Z shka_: it is not all that difficult to follow
2020-06-17T08:55:23Z shka_: paule32: point beach made are very easy to fix
2020-06-17T08:55:43Z shka_: step by step guide would be
2020-06-17T08:56:14Z shka_: parentheses: just don't (i sometimes do, but this way you won't annoy people)
2020-06-17T08:56:35Z shka_: indentation: just stick with emacs/slime default
2020-06-17T08:56:46Z paule32: if you need help, i could try to translate it to german, because the most text is in english, what i found
2020-06-17T08:56:48Z shka_: literally everyone uses the same setting
2020-06-17T08:57:02Z shka_: and put the earmuffs around special variables
2020-06-17T08:57:35Z shka_: done, you have quenched the righteous wrath of beach
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2020-06-17T08:58:57Z paule32: so, in a half our, it is dinner time
2020-06-17T08:59:18Z shka_: which not only means you stopped annoying people, but also you may get some tips from beach
2020-06-17T08:59:37Z no-defun-allowed: I thought my mum was weird for making dinner at 4:30pm, but dinner at 11am is certainly something.
2020-06-17T08:59:38Z shka_: which is very useful on it's own right
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2020-06-17T09:00:11Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: i used to eat dinner around 5pm so it is not that weird
2020-06-17T09:00:39Z paule32: hehe
2020-06-17T09:00:50Z paule32: 11:00 am here
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2020-06-17T09:01:11Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Check the Wikipedia page on "Dinner".
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2020-06-17T09:01:47Z no-defun-allowed: Ah, alright.
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2020-06-17T10:06:13Z ralt: shka_: emacs/slime default mix tabs and spaces :|
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2020-06-17T10:07:00Z shka_: really?
2020-06-17T10:07:08Z shka_: i would never know
2020-06-17T10:07:35Z varjag: say i run slime session on a remote host… is there a hack to make it open source code references from a local filesystem?
2020-06-17T10:07:36Z ralt: I know whenever I copy paste my code out of emacs and it's full of inconsistencies
2020-06-17T10:08:13Z shka_: varjag: there is one, let me google it out
2020-06-17T10:08:55Z shka_: varjag: i mean, sorry, i though you meant the remote filesystem
2020-06-17T10:09:05Z shka_: which makes sense for debugging
2020-06-17T10:09:48Z varjag: right, the opposite
2020-06-17T10:09:50Z ffwacom: ralt: that explains the jank I’m seeing in fork diffs (git)
2020-06-17T10:09:51Z shka_: varjag: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Setting-up-pathname-translations.html#Setting-up-pathname-translations does that describes your problem?
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2020-06-17T10:10:56Z ralt: ffwacom: yep...
2020-06-17T10:11:21Z varjag: shka_: the opposite… but guess i could try the reverse, with :remote-host being my local host
2020-06-17T10:11:30Z varjag: as long as pathnames are the same..
2020-06-17T10:11:39Z shka_: this won't work
2020-06-17T10:11:53Z shka_: i think?
2020-06-17T10:12:08Z shka_: but i suspect that i know what your problem is
2020-06-17T10:12:21Z shka_: you have remote lisp, and you load a local code into it?
2020-06-17T10:12:23Z shka_: correct?
2020-06-17T10:12:31Z ralt: I use an ssh tunnel for slime connect and am interested in the same
2020-06-17T10:12:31Z varjag: shka_: i have a bunch of devices (dozens) that i sometimes connect to diagnose
2020-06-17T10:13:17Z shka_: ok, so why do you need a local code in the remote lisp?
2020-06-17T10:13:20Z varjag: so i would rather edit the actual source worktree instead of each local one
2020-06-17T10:13:37Z shka_: ok, gotcha
2020-06-17T10:14:07Z varjag: also it would be like a whole bunch of slime-filename-translations
2020-06-17T10:14:08Z shka_: so i don't know how to do it, but i suspect that this can be hacked in the emacs
2020-06-17T10:14:12Z varjag: hosts change addresses and so on
2020-06-17T10:14:30Z shka_: which you already figured out i guess
2020-06-17T10:15:15Z shka_: ralt: i also connect via ssh tunnel, that's how i know about slime-tramp
2020-06-17T10:15:25Z varjag: right… was just hoping to piggyback on someone else's pain^Wexperience here
2020-06-17T10:19:16Z seok: Shinmera What's with this? https://github.com/Shinmera/cl-graphql lol
2020-06-17T10:19:49Z shka_: last commit is "I'm going crazy"
2020-06-17T10:20:20Z no-defun-allowed: It says "don't look", so you go and look.
2020-06-17T10:20:38Z seok: Yes
2020-06-17T10:20:55Z seok: I even post the link here so everyone can go and take a look
2020-06-17T10:21:16Z shka_: i should remove some of the repos from github
2020-06-17T10:21:18Z shka_: just in case
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2020-06-17T10:24:40Z phoe: seok: let me try to translate
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2020-06-17T10:25:19Z phoe: "DON'T LOOK, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" == "if you dare look at this code and/or use it for anything, you acknowledge that you are fully and utterly on your own for all practical and theoretical purposes; good luck and God sped you"
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2020-06-17T10:26:10Z seok: What does "	I'm going crazy" mean?
2020-06-17T10:26:17Z no-defun-allowed: Exactly that.
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2020-06-17T10:39:16Z phoe: translating "I'm going crazy": "this last commit has made me see the very bottom of my tin jar of mental powers, my heart is barren and dry; oh, madness, sweet madness, I can feel thee creeping unto me, whispering your sweet nothings into my ears even as they are covered with headphones, mashed with heavy music! Oh, thy promises are red and moist with honey, thy seduction unbearable; please, spare me this
2020-06-17T10:39:22Z phoe: one-sided journey of yours, begone for a day or an hour more, for I have a task to finish, a task that is mortal and mundane and so very much unlike the tasks that you set before me, to cast away my old self, to remove all meaning from my life and replace it with thee, with thy words, with thy passion and chaotic fury"
2020-06-17T10:39:27Z phoe: seok: does this solve your problem?
2020-06-17T10:39:57Z easye: Some fierce words!
2020-06-17T10:40:26Z phoe: easye: nah, I feel that way every time I fix bugs
2020-06-17T10:40:32Z easye laughs
2020-06-17T10:40:59Z seok: beautiful. Japanese people have an interesting way of reciting poetry
2020-06-17T10:41:12Z phoe: that's not Japanese
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2020-06-17T10:41:19Z seok: but Shinmera is
2020-06-17T10:41:22Z phoe: wtf
2020-06-17T10:41:25Z phoe: no he isn't
2020-06-17T10:41:29Z seok: he is not?
2020-06-17T10:41:43Z phoe: he is very much not
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2020-06-17T10:42:01Z seok: Why is his blog in Japanese tho
2020-06-17T10:42:01Z easye: He just wishes he wuz....
2020-06-17T10:42:06Z seok: o
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2020-06-17T10:42:31Z heisig: Hint: Shinmera was supposed to be the local chair at ELS in Zürich.
2020-06-17T10:42:50Z seok: he is a Japanese living in Zurich?
2020-06-17T10:43:05Z easye: That doesn't logically rule out the possible world in which "Shinmera is Japanese" is true.
2020-06-17T10:44:04Z shka_: heh
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2020-06-17T10:44:34Z shka_: not only shinmera wishes to be japanese, other people also want him to be japanese
2020-06-17T10:45:42Z easye: Well, if Shinmera were here right now, he would gently nudge such speculations to #lispcafe.
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2020-06-17T11:35:47Z kinope^: Hey beach in case you or anyone else is interested this is what I was babbling on about earlier.I wasn't able to get across what it was that I was asking, but perhaps this makes it a little clearer.https://pastebin.com/raw/Ur6KMMvAI was wondering if it is at all possible to change just one specific 'case form'(?) that resides inside a state.For
2020-06-17T11:35:48Z kinope^: example if I wanted to create a new class of 'machine' called 'green-machine', have it inherit 'test-machine's behavior(states), BUT, say I wanted to change some of the behavior in 'state1' so that on recieving the 'print' event it prints "green machine", is it possible to do that without rewriting the entire method somehow? or this just
2020-06-17T11:35:48Z kinope^: crazy-talk?
2020-06-17T11:36:19Z kinope^: https://pastebin.com/raw/Ur6KMMvA
2020-06-17T11:37:07Z kinope^ doesn't know how to paste links
2020-06-17T11:38:36Z Bike: you could have state1 eql-specialize on the state, and then have a different method for each combination of machine type and event
2020-06-17T11:39:03Z Bike: like (defmethod state1 ((machine test-machine) (event (eql 'entry))) (incf (slot-value machine 'transition-count)))
2020-06-17T11:40:21Z Bike: then you can do normal inheritance stuff to get your different behavior.
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2020-06-17T11:45:44Z kinope^: Wow! So simple, but It works!
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2020-06-17T11:45:59Z kinope^: Thanks Bike
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2020-06-17T11:47:12Z kinope^: I thought it would be complicated to do something like this, but it turns out it's just there in the language!
2020-06-17T11:47:46Z kinope^ is very chuffed
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2020-06-17T11:58:51Z flip214: Yeah, filtered functions should be in CLOS
2020-06-17T11:59:41Z shka_: not sure about it
2020-06-17T11:59:51Z shka_: CL is already a large standard
2020-06-17T12:02:03Z flip214: shka_: do you prefer something lean (like Scheme) where so many useful things are missing?
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2020-06-17T12:05:44Z adlai: kinope^: state machines are not encodable with full generality as common lisp generic functions, since tail recursion is not required by the implemntations.
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2020-06-17T12:07:17Z adlai: you can express what you'd like the state machine to execute, although it might end up as obscure and convoluted as the standards document itself.
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2020-06-17T12:09:17Z shka_: flip214: i just think that there are other ares of CL that could benefit from extension a lot more
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2020-06-17T12:09:43Z shka_: like standardized local-nicknames
2020-06-17T12:10:11Z adlai: if only, whatintarnationwasitnamedagain, generiflect, had genuflected the committee members into agreement before the budget constraints loomed.
2020-06-17T12:11:27Z shka_: well, at some point you need to stop adding features
2020-06-17T12:11:56Z beach: I think most other languages could benefit more from being more like Common Lisp than for Common Lisp to have more features.
2020-06-17T12:12:21Z shka_: true
2020-06-17T12:12:49Z shka_: but i still think that packages got shortchanged :P
2020-06-17T12:13:10Z shka_: luckily this became irrelevant now
2020-06-17T12:13:27Z beach: Seriously, I don't get this kind of discussion.  Lots of people use languages every day that don't even HAVE a standard.  But for some reason, when it comes to Common Lisp, it is not enough that the feature exists in every major implementation.  IT HAS TO BE IN THE STANDARD or else we complain.
2020-06-17T12:13:45Z kinope^: adlai: If it's not too much to ask, can you please expand on the first point you made. I know little in this area so it's not immediately obvious to me how tail-recursion factors into being fully general-isable or what that means actually.
2020-06-17T12:14:06Z shka_: beach: well, that's why it is irrelevant nowdays
2020-06-17T12:14:13Z Bike: if you have a state transition function, and it doesn't use tail calls, then every state transition will need a new stack frame.
2020-06-17T12:14:21Z Bike: so, if the machine passes through too many states, you'll blow the stack.
2020-06-17T12:14:37Z beach: shka_: So why does not a single week go by without a long discussion about what is lacking in the standard?
2020-06-17T12:15:01Z adlai: kinope^: thank you, it ain't. I'll be here all week and you'll hear back from me once I've compiled unwritten ideas into English, probably before the next moon.
2020-06-17T12:15:17Z shka_: beach: i assure you that this is common to standardized languages
2020-06-17T12:15:25Z shka_: we are not unique :(
2020-06-17T12:16:32Z beach: shka_: But then, these new features are often proposed by people who have no knowledge about language design or compiler design, so they have no idea how the proposed feature might ruin some main feature of the language, such as the ability for the compiler to generate fast code, for instance.
2020-06-17T12:17:24Z beach: I am not talking about this particular instance of the discussion of course.
2020-06-17T12:18:52Z shka_: i am afraid that at this point you are just expressing your personal frustration
2020-06-17T12:20:20Z jackdaniel: it is hard to express external frustration, you need years of training as an actor
2020-06-17T12:20:38Z jackdaniel: ,)
2020-06-17T12:21:13Z jackdaniel: s/external/someone else's/
2020-06-17T12:21:55Z kinope^: Bike: I see. does this issue have a work around? Should I look into other avenues of state machine representation instead?
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2020-06-17T12:23:45Z shka_: kinope^: yes
2020-06-17T12:24:11Z shka_: what i would do in your case is to return closure instead of calling new state function directly
2020-06-17T12:24:30Z shka_: since it is easier to rewrite it this way
2020-06-17T12:24:53Z shka_: and then call returned closures in a loop
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2020-06-17T12:30:40Z kinope^: shka_: alright I'll look into that thanks
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2020-06-17T12:34:19Z seok: is there a library to sign api request signatures?
2020-06-17T12:34:24Z seok: seems like a common task
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2020-06-17T12:35:12Z p_l: with no real standard, iirc
2020-06-17T12:35:44Z seok: Oh, do each provider sign differently?
2020-06-17T12:36:10Z p_l: let me check, but just Amazon is on 4th version of their signature scheme
2020-06-17T12:39:20Z p_l: seok: there's a not-even-RFC-yet from Oracle: draft-cavage-http-signatures-07
2020-06-17T12:40:06Z p_l: found more recent version
2020-06-17T12:40:07Z p_l: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cavage-http-signatures-12
2020-06-17T12:41:02Z p_l: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/general/latest/gr/sigv4_signing.html <--- current AWS format
2020-06-17T12:41:54Z p_l: OAuth uses a different format as well
2020-06-17T12:42:51Z p_l: Chef uses yet another scheme
2020-06-17T12:42:58Z p_l: lot's of options to choose from :)
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2020-06-17T12:49:54Z jmercouris: (describe #'print) -> Lambda-list: (SB-IMPL::OBJECT &OPTIONAL STREAM)
2020-06-17T12:50:00Z jmercouris: I tried (slot-value #'print 'lambda-list)
2020-06-17T12:50:18Z jmercouris: I also tried to inspect it
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2020-06-17T12:50:50Z beach: I am pretty sure #'print is not a standard object in SBCL.
2020-06-17T12:51:04Z jmercouris: also: (slot-value #'print 'arglist)
2020-06-17T12:51:05Z jmercouris: doesn't work
2020-06-17T12:51:12Z jmercouris: so how would you get the labmda list of a function then?
2020-06-17T12:51:23Z jmercouris: s/labmda/lambda
2020-06-17T12:51:24Z beach: You can use SLOT-VALUE reliably only on standard objects.
2020-06-17T12:51:36Z beach: clhs function-lambda-expression
2020-06-17T12:51:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm
2020-06-17T12:51:44Z beach: But that one might return NIL.
2020-06-17T12:51:57Z jmercouris: indeed, it returns NIL
2020-06-17T12:52:16Z phoe: jmercouris: (ql:quickload :trivial-arguments)
2020-06-17T12:52:33Z shka_: jmercouris: i have never need to extract lambda list out of an arbitrary function
2020-06-17T12:52:37Z shka_: so what are you doing?
2020-06-17T12:52:47Z shka_: *never needed
2020-06-17T12:53:03Z jmercouris: I am trying to be able to call commands that have optional and keyword arguments by prompting the user for forms to use
2020-06-17T12:53:14Z jmercouris: so for example, should the user type in C-x C-k or something to call a command Y
2020-06-17T12:53:20Z jmercouris: and Y has an optional argument titled :potato
2020-06-17T12:53:26Z jmercouris: I want the user to have the option to specify :potato
2020-06-17T12:53:51Z beach: jmercouris: You could use CLIM for that.  It already has the concept of a "command".
2020-06-17T12:54:12Z beach: That way, you will automatically get completion and the right presentation type.
2020-06-17T12:54:15Z jmercouris: I'm not about to retrofit CLIM into Nyxt :-D
2020-06-17T12:54:20Z shka_: beach: i suspect that this is for a next browser
2020-06-17T12:54:49Z jmercouris: phoe: damn, I got NIL :-\
2020-06-17T12:54:57Z shka_: jmercouris: ok, i would go other route
2020-06-17T12:54:58Z jmercouris: phoe: must I compile with some special settings?
2020-06-17T12:55:06Z jmercouris: shka_: what is the "other route"?
2020-06-17T12:55:15Z shka_: funcallable standard objects
2020-06-17T12:55:21Z jmercouris: I can also just save the lambda list as part of my define-command macro
2020-06-17T12:55:26Z phoe: jmercouris: for which object?
2020-06-17T12:55:35Z jmercouris: phoe: a function object
2020-06-17T12:55:39Z phoe: also, what is your implementation?
2020-06-17T12:55:42Z jmercouris: SBCL
2020-06-17T12:55:46Z phoe: jmercouris: what are your optimization settings?
2020-06-17T12:55:49Z jmercouris: #'execute-command -> #<FUNCTION EXECUTE-COMMAND>
2020-06-17T12:55:54Z shka_: jmercouris: https://common-lisp.net/~mevenson/lisp/beach/CLOS-MOP-HTML/class-funcallable-standard-object.html
2020-06-17T12:55:55Z jmercouris: (trivial-arguments:arglist #'execute-command) -> NIL
2020-06-17T12:56:09Z jmercouris: phoe: (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (speed 0)))
2020-06-17T12:56:58Z jmercouris: shka_: an interesting idea
2020-06-17T12:57:06Z jmercouris: shka_: maybe we should use funcallable objects instead...
2020-06-17T12:57:10Z phoe: CL-USER> (trivial-arguments:arglist #'alexandria:mappend)
2020-06-17T12:57:11Z phoe: (FUNCTION &REST ALEXANDRIA::LISTS)
2020-06-17T12:57:15Z phoe: jmercouris: dunno, works on my machine
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2020-06-17T12:57:22Z jmercouris: phoe: works for that too
2020-06-17T12:57:24Z shka_: jmercouris: this way you can stick all data you need into function
2020-06-17T12:57:30Z jmercouris: (trivial-arguments:arglist #'alexandria:mappend) -> (FUNCTION &REST ALEX::LISTS)
2020-06-17T12:57:33Z phoe: debug 3 safety 3 here
2020-06-17T12:57:43Z shka_: and then you can do something like (defgeneric invoke (function &rest arguments))
2020-06-17T12:57:43Z phoe: where does #'execute-command come from?...
2020-06-17T12:57:50Z jmercouris: wonder why it works for alexandria, but not my own function
2020-06-17T12:57:57Z jmercouris: phoe: it is part of a toplevel form that expands out to a progn + defun
2020-06-17T12:58:02Z jmercouris: I'll show you the expanded one sec
2020-06-17T12:58:04Z shka_: and have one method for function, another for your objects
2020-06-17T12:58:24Z shka_: methods for your objects would inspect if all arguments are provided edc.
2020-06-17T12:58:24Z jmercouris: looks like this: http://dpaste.com/20SDKZ2
2020-06-17T12:58:26Z shka_: *etc
2020-06-17T12:58:51Z phoe: (DEFUN EXECUTE-COMMAND () ...)
2020-06-17T12:58:52Z shka_: invoke on "normal" functions would simply apply
2020-06-17T12:58:53Z jmercouris: oh my goodness
2020-06-17T12:58:54Z jmercouris: yes
2020-06-17T12:58:57Z phoe: ..................seriously
2020-06-17T12:58:58Z jmercouris: there are no arguments
2020-06-17T12:59:13Z jmercouris: well, well well :-D
2020-06-17T12:59:24Z shka_: ooops :P
2020-06-17T12:59:25Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV5G_gwBUXY
2020-06-17T12:59:41Z jmercouris: ah, well, now it works of course :-D
2020-06-17T12:59:45Z jmercouris: must have been a compiler bug :-D
2020-06-17T12:59:50Z phoe: obviously
2020-06-17T13:00:12Z shka_: jmercouris: this also explains returned nil
2020-06-17T13:00:23Z jmercouris: yes, indeed
2020-06-17T13:00:31Z shka_: anyway, i still don't think that you are doing it right
2020-06-17T13:00:37Z jmercouris: so, trivial-arguments does work, but funcallable objects...
2020-06-17T13:00:42Z jmercouris: shka_: you see how it has expanded right?
2020-06-17T13:00:50Z jmercouris: we keep an object as well as a function that we define
2020-06-17T13:00:58Z shka_: nah, that's fine
2020-06-17T13:01:00Z jmercouris: and actually we keep the whole form
2020-06-17T13:01:17Z phoe: you shouldn't really need it if the lambda list provided by trivial-arguments is all you need
2020-06-17T13:01:31Z phoe: for more introspection and all, if you need to play with the source forms, it might be useful
2020-06-17T13:01:36Z jmercouris: I'm just not sure I want to add another dependency...
2020-06-17T13:01:49Z jmercouris: maybe that is a bad reason
2020-06-17T13:01:50Z phoe: oh fine
2020-06-17T13:01:53Z phoe: #'sb-introspect:function-lambda-list
2020-06-17T13:01:54Z shka_: jmercouris: doing it this way has a major drawback
2020-06-17T13:02:05Z shka_: namely, it is not extendable
2020-06-17T13:02:39Z jmercouris: phoe: well, I just looked it is only CL, so I am OK with it
2020-06-17T13:02:41Z shka_: if you want to provide some extra restrictions on what can be specified by the user and what not… lambda list does not carry such informations
2020-06-17T13:03:01Z jmercouris: shka_: yes, perhaps trivial lambda for now, and then down the road funcallable object
2020-06-17T13:03:09Z jmercouris: because I do agree with you
2020-06-17T13:03:15Z jmercouris: i just am not sure I want to commit to that much work for this feature
2020-06-17T13:03:23Z shka_: so you won't be able to extend this for new features
2020-06-17T13:03:39Z shka_: actually it is not that much of work
2020-06-17T13:03:43Z shka_: let me show you example
2020-06-17T13:03:45Z phoe: shka_: obviously he will be able to extend this for new features; it will just be painful because it involves recompiling functions
2020-06-17T13:03:57Z phoe: so it might not be the best tool for the job
2020-06-17T13:04:32Z shka_: phoe: not really, if for instance you want restrict argument to be a link
2020-06-17T13:04:44Z jmercouris: what does it mean to restrict an argument to be a link?
2020-06-17T13:04:55Z shka_: jmercouris: imagine something like this
2020-06-17T13:05:07Z shka_: you want to have a command save-link-as-file
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2020-06-17T13:05:17Z shka_: you invoke command, user is supposed to click on the link
2020-06-17T13:05:24Z shka_: not on the text, on a link
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2020-06-17T13:05:57Z shka_: in such case, it would be a good idea to provide some sort of visual hint that pointed element can be accepted
2020-06-17T13:06:08Z shka_: and to do so, it is not sufficient to inspect the lambda list
2020-06-17T13:06:28Z shka_: jmercouris: got it?
2020-06-17T13:06:31Z jmercouris: so we would want a lambda list validator function or something
2020-06-17T13:06:34Z jmercouris: yes I understand
2020-06-17T13:06:49Z jmercouris: i don't fully understand how this way would be restricted like that
2020-06-17T13:07:05Z jmercouris: since we have the define-command macro we could also have it accept some sort of validation
2020-06-17T13:07:08Z shka_: if you need more then one lambda you will going to build a spaghetti code :-)
2020-06-17T13:07:14Z jmercouris: well, fair enough
2020-06-17T13:07:23Z jmercouris: what we have so far is a relationship of command class -> function
2020-06-17T13:07:25Z shka_: and since you need to keep all those callbacks somewhere
2020-06-17T13:07:28Z jmercouris: but the function is not aware of its command class
2020-06-17T13:07:31Z shka_: you are ending with an object anyway!
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2020-06-17T13:07:44Z jmercouris: well... pull requests are welcome :-D
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2020-06-17T13:08:22Z shka_: jmercouris: here is an example https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/master/src/api/expression-wrapper.lisp
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2020-06-17T13:08:57Z jmercouris: I see, interesting
2020-06-17T13:08:58Z shka_: c2mop is a compatibility layer
2020-06-17T13:09:22Z shka_: and all you care about is line 42
2020-06-17T13:09:43Z jmercouris: and line 4
2020-06-17T13:09:47Z shka_: yup
2020-06-17T13:09:58Z jmercouris: hm... this will still involve quite some work
2020-06-17T13:10:01Z shka_: anyway, now this object can be funcalled like an ordinary function
2020-06-17T13:10:08Z jmercouris: yes, that is very very cool
2020-06-17T13:10:12Z jmercouris: i wish I had known about the existence of this
2020-06-17T13:10:35Z shka_: now, since you have your commands to be functions at the moment
2020-06-17T13:10:47Z jmercouris: we cannot store extra data as a result
2020-06-17T13:10:52Z jmercouris: and that is why we have a separate class
2020-06-17T13:11:03Z jmercouris: but it would make a lot of sense to just be in one class
2020-06-17T13:11:06Z jmercouris: one object
2020-06-17T13:11:20Z shka_: yeah, one unit
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2020-06-17T13:15:29Z shka_: phoe: hopefully you see my point as well
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2020-06-17T13:16:09Z jmercouris: i will still do this later, i’ll iterate over it
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2020-06-17T13:16:44Z marcoxa: Hello!
2020-06-17T13:18:42Z shka_: hi
2020-06-17T13:19:00Z phoe: shka_: yes, I understand that
2020-06-17T13:19:10Z phoe: hey marcoxa
2020-06-17T13:22:33Z shka_: ok, cool
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2020-06-17T13:57:32Z kinope^: shka_: Hmm, I've been puzzling over the call stack issue. You mention to return a closure instead of calling the new state function directly. As far as I can see though this is currently what the state transition function does, or rather the transition function takes as an argument a function object and stores it in the 'state' slot of the machine
2020-06-17T13:57:32Z kinope^: object so that events may be dispatched to the state machine further down the line. The transition function does currently dispatch 'exit' and 'entry' events to the source and target state as part of transitioning between states but the machine 'must' settle into a stable state. After the stable state is reached there is nothing else to do but to
2020-06-17T13:57:33Z kinope^: return to the place where the initial event(that caused the state transition) was dispatched from, thus, I cant forsee an issue with potentially blowing out the stack. Of course, I may be wrong though.
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2020-06-17T13:59:29Z Bike: if the transition function just returns the new state that's fine
2020-06-17T14:00:35Z Bike: but in your pastebin there's no loop, it just keeps doing calls
2020-06-17T14:03:02Z kinope^: I'll be integrating it with an actor run-time I've been working on, currently the state-machine doesn't operate on its own. the only calls that are made are to perform exit and entry actions to and from certain states, but otherwise it sits unanimated
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2020-06-17T14:05:04Z Bike: but i mean, you have state1 calling transition, which calls dispatch, which calls a state function again.
2020-06-17T14:09:05Z kinope^: state1 only transfers state on receiving an event of the symbol 'transition'. There is only the possibility of infinite recursion if one were to design a machine with state transitions inside every 'entry' to each state up to infinity.
2020-06-17T14:09:52Z Bike: i mean state machines often go indefinitely or for very long, yeah?
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2020-06-17T14:11:32Z kinope^: well, yes. but they don't need to recurse. once the state is updated the dispatch can return in anticipation of further event dispatch. the state machine sits idle between  receiving events.
2020-06-17T14:13:25Z Bike: oh, i see what you mean now.
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2020-06-17T14:14:00Z Bike: i assumed this was like a mealy machine and the event was an input
2020-06-17T14:16:53Z adlai: kinope^: if you explicitly include a stack counter that acts to the halt state upon overflow, then the worst thing a correctly compiled implementation could do is halt incorrectly instead of keeping your perpetuum mobile dancing.
2020-06-17T14:17:24Z adlai: you could also exhale smoke after snorting sparks, although that requires hardware errors.
2020-06-17T14:18:50Z kinope^: Cool, the flow goes like this: Run-time dequeues message of central message queue -> inside the message is an address of a state machine and an event which is dispatched to the machine -> machine sends event to currently active state -> which runs to completion, this may involve a state transfer or not -> procedure returns to the run-time system so
2020-06-17T14:18:50Z kinope^: that it may again dispatch any available messages.
2020-06-17T14:20:38Z adlai: kinope^: do you still require further expounding of the aforementioned initial point? it is covered by my previous two messages, although they are much less verbose than yours.
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2020-06-17T14:22:01Z kinope^: that was in reply to Bike, adlai. I'm just a slow typist :P
2020-06-17T14:22:35Z kinope^: If you don't mind though I would like to hear it.
2020-06-17T14:22:37Z adlai: there are significantly more practical existing compiler errors in published CLOS implementations, and these have precedence over writing a state machine method combination. have fun with that one, kinope^ !
2020-06-17T14:23:23Z adlai: I hope that by the time I fix compliance errors in method combinations, there'll be any reason for such mature generality.
2020-06-17T14:24:34Z adlai might even fix sheeple before going back to reading CLOS internals, although there are compliance errors in the one that actually has a good, done, standard.
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2020-06-17T14:26:44Z kinope^: I am unsure if you are ticked off with me, but you have left so I guess it doesn't matter anymore.
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2020-06-17T19:25:40Z TwoNotes: Are options to (log4cl:config) order sensitive?  I can not get it to STOP putting package and file names in the log.
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2020-06-17T19:26:26Z TwoNotes: (log:config :NOPACKAGE :THREAD :SANE :DAILY "my.log" :BACKUP NIL)
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2020-06-17T19:34:06Z dlowe: try :nopackage t
2020-06-17T19:34:14Z dlowe: also :thread t :sane t
2020-06-17T19:34:49Z dlowe: log4cl may be doing something cute with a macro but typically keywords are always arguments and must be passed a value
2020-06-17T19:37:11Z TwoNotes: aha
2020-06-17T19:37:27Z TwoNotes: The only documentation is comments in the code.
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2020-06-17T20:20:42Z 
2020-06-17T20:20:42Z names: ccl-logbot kini Ekho narendraj9 emacsoma1 MightyJoe ArthurSt1ong akkad_ hjudt_ copec mdr_ Kabriel_ eta loke` xlei shangul dnm X-Scale alandipert1 penguwin flak andrei_n nikkal _whitelogger karayan dddddd dkovalev__ manu1511 madage knuckles TwoNotes cosimone shifty hiroaki_ dlowe orivej ebrasca CrazyEddy gaqwas jw4 drdee vaporatorius__ dale aeth Harag Misha_B bitmapper mathrick efm EvW nicktick matzy_ sdumi SGASAU` terpri__ narimiran random-nick sjl_ scymtym
2020-06-17T20:20:42Z names: jonatack gravicappa edgar-rft gxt shinohai Lord_of_Life Bike madand jello_pudding whiteline hvxgr jesse1010 froggey igemnace elflng Lord_Nightmare karlosz ralt midre pve DGASAU liberliver slyrus gabiruh zooey rixard_ kamid paule32 Aurora_v_kosmose fouric flazh Kaisyu7 pikajew Jesin malm notzmv v3ga crazybigdan paul0 cairn justache sammich katco even4void[m] LdBeth1 ult no-defun-allowed Gnuxie[m] terrorjack gjnoonan fowlduck tazjin vutral chewbranca
2020-06-17T20:20:42Z names: parisienne___ p_l conjunctive entel physpi drmeister Jachy sz0 camlriot42 mgsk lukego gaze__ billstclair Guest23015 ssd532 infra_red[m] epony userself jlpeters dvdmuckle l1x Firedancer_ eMBee ski selwyn travv0 boeg idxu specbot funnel loli troydm niceplace frgo theBlackDragon hdasch drewc nightfly_ hhdave gigetoo mpontillo kilimanjaro xristos null_ptr devrtz cg505_ pent saturn2 stylewarning johs Tordek hiredman CommanderViral felideon rabuf eschatologist
2020-06-17T20:20:42Z names: kim\ jackhill phoe mbrumlow_ voidlily spal jerme_ cpt_nemo lispyone_ yottabyte hydan yonkunas Kaisyu interruptinuse larme CEnnis91 zmt00 Xach cantstanya knobo Grauwolf karstensrage moon-child markasoftware sputny[m] MrtnDk[m] dxtr HDurer _death bacterio twelvemonkeys leo_song Mandus datajerk ramus lottaquestions zulu-inuoe OMGOMG aindilis guaqua arpunk fountainpen[m] megalography yang mr_yogurt sbryant solrize easye kapil_ jgkamat Ankhers luis matijja
2020-06-17T20:20:42Z names: MetaYan TMA Fade ChoHag cpape jackdaniel Blukunfando Zotan Krystof zigpaw Posterdati grewal_ flip214 mgr_ rotty cybercafe drot abbe lavaflow payphone [df] astronavt RagnarDanneskjol sgithens asedeno XachX jmercouris gendl rme bonz060 cracauer grumble fengshaun Cymew lad jsatk thonkpod |3b| shymega swflint zagura cmatei d4ryus c_nix trn nydel fluxwave mason SAL9000 ozzloy stux|RC axion nullman Archenoth jxy aap quazimodo Guest9274 __jrjsmrtn__ Inoperable
2020-06-17T20:20:42Z names: nckx splittist ffwacom jhei rvirding housel Oladon SomeB winny stux|RC-only brass himmAllRight add^_ trittweiler lowryder GreaseMonkey shenghi AdmiralBumbleBee thijso xantoz joast Oddity cgay jfb4_ pok spacebat1 oldtopman nitrix snits stepnem gko`` cross arbv mrSpec zaquest RukiSama thecoffemaker chrpape r3x5 antoszka SumoSud0- Odin- gingerale heredoc beaky sveit otwieracz Blkt @fe[nl]ix vutral_ creat ioa ecraven bkst_ shrysr larsen banjiewen jasom
2020-06-17T20:20:42Z names: Yardanico Balooga HiRE beach avicenna Demosthenex simplegauss Grue`` rumpelszn catern drainful justinmcp h11 micro_ eagleflo gabot jbgg mjl tfb ark akrl` nullheroes bytesighs davsebamse mrcom cods APic dim esotericalgo lieven z0d xi fiddlerwoaroof vert2 tomaw natj212 Patzy vhost- phadthai ft azrazalea ssake jurov White_Flame ck__ tessier zymurgy femi borodust Robdgreat kingcons kbtr_ lonjil seisatsu_ cdegroot mgsk_ minion vsync mood wigust jprajzne dmiles
2020-06-17T20:20:42Z names: remexre nopf defaultxr ntr cyberlard tumdum_ grobe0ba tephra glamas sukaeto Colleen Ziemas
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2020-06-17T20:47:56Z paule32: hello
2020-06-17T20:48:16Z paule32: can you de-bann me at #clschool ?
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2020-06-17T20:51:54Z dlowe: no not a chance.
2020-06-17T20:52:05Z dlowe: find some other cl school
2020-06-17T20:52:46Z paule32: plexi tells me, that cl noobs is closed because spam ...
2020-06-17T20:54:40Z dlowe: yep, you'll have to find some other other school
2020-06-17T20:55:05Z dlowe: You have burnt this bridge. Just move on without a fuss.
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2020-06-17T21:00:12Z paule32: you mean, i should stay here?
2020-06-17T21:00:21Z paule32: ok
2020-06-17T21:00:50Z paule32: but don't bite me, when i ask, little bit stupid questions
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2020-06-17T22:42:55Z seok: someone already made this !! https://github.com/rotatef/aws-sign4
2020-06-17T22:43:00Z seok: Thankyou rotatef
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2020-06-17T22:43:43Z seok: I was about to grow a cancer
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2020-06-17T23:37:20Z thmprover: How can I make a class "extend" the number type? (I'm trying to do this with a generalization of the quaternions, itself a generalization of the Complex numbers)
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2020-06-17T23:39:29Z no-defun-allowed: You cannot in Common Lisp.
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2020-06-17T23:40:37Z thmprover: Boo :(
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2020-06-17T23:42:18Z thmprover: Well, that's still good to know, I can work around it.
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2020-06-17T23:45:43Z no-defun-allowed: There is a system that provides a "generic" lookalike which lets you write methods for arithmetic functions, but programs have to use that in order to utilise your quaternions.
2020-06-17T23:45:58Z no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/alex-gutev/generic-cl
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2020-06-17T23:47:21Z thmprover: Bookmarked, thanks :)
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2020-06-17T23:51:45Z thmprover: I'm gonna have to talk a walk to think through the design choices, I'll be back in a few
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2020-06-18T03:29:00Z matzy_: so i built a small hunchentoot server, got it running on a docker image, and connected it locally.  everything works great.  i already have an RDS instance on amazon, but if i'm reading correctly, it doesn't connect to databases?  does it just handle routing then?
2020-06-18T03:29:00Z Colleen: matzy_: kpoeck said 18 hours, 54 minutes ago: Please have a look at https://github.com/clasp-developers/clasp/blob/master/README.md There certainly it is explained that clasp is a common lisp compiler
2020-06-18T03:30:56Z matzy_: I don't care about a compiler.  My goal was to dockerize a react front-end with a hunchentoot back-end, throw them on an ec2 instance and connect the api (hunchentoot) to RDS.  is this kind of stack not possible?
2020-06-18T03:31:21Z matzy_: (the RDS database is just mysql btw)
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2020-06-18T03:37:50Z fe[nl]ix: matzy_: it's possible, you can use cl-dbi to connect to Mysql
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2020-06-18T03:41:38Z matzy_: fe[nl]ix awesome, i'll check it out right now.  thanks
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2020-06-18T03:43:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-06-18T03:45:18Z matzy_: fe[nl]ix this looks simple and perfect, thanks.  and one less docker container i have to build because the db is already up on aws rds
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2020-06-18T04:44:25Z matzy_: do you need to tie nginx in with hunchentoot to deploy to aws or the like, or will they handle that for you?
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2020-06-18T07:14:32Z ffwacom: matzy_: well if it’s just ec2/vm instances we’re talking about there’s no need for nginx
2020-06-18T07:15:46Z matzy_: ffwacom there's not?  i was planning on deploying to ec2 if it'll let me with my stack
2020-06-18T07:16:39Z ffwacom: what’s your stack?
2020-06-18T07:16:51Z matzy_: so aws will implement the ip assignment, ip blocking, all that other crap?  and it'll just work bc hunchentoot exposes a port it listens on?
2020-06-18T07:17:17Z matzy_: react + hunchentoot, with an aws rds db (so i didnt have a third docker container lol)
2020-06-18T07:17:20Z ffwacom: Yes there’s security groups you setup, just expose the port hunchentoot is listening on
2020-06-18T07:18:00Z matzy_: and that's basically the stuff nginx would've handled?  why do people bother pushing nginx dockers to aws?
2020-06-18T07:19:47Z ffwacom: I don’t know. Are you using hunchentoot to serve an API which nginx will reverse proxy under some route? (+ nginx serving the static react stuff)
2020-06-18T07:23:06Z matzy_: yeah i will need something serving the pages, but i thought i could manage hunchentoot to take the user there on the first route and let react handle it from there
2020-06-18T07:23:52Z matzy_: maybe i need to read more on what "reverse proxies" are, cause i'm not really familiar
2020-06-18T07:25:55Z ffwacom: yeah it depends on the specifics of how you want to set it up. Hunchentoot can serve static files so strictly nginx isn’t needed, but it’s a normal way to go about it.
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2020-06-18T07:30:58Z matzy_: i see, thanks
2020-06-18T07:31:07Z matzy_: i do have one dumber question if you have a sec
2020-06-18T07:31:38Z ffwacom: sure
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2020-06-18T07:34:31Z flip214: why does REMOVE says "elements satisfying" but DELETE "the specified item"? Does DELETE really remove only one element but REMOVE multiple?
2020-06-18T07:35:13Z matzy_: if you have a packages.lisp file where you do all your (defpackage)'s, why would you make a :component in asdf dependent on it?
2020-06-18T07:36:12Z matzy_: unless i just missed a paren...hold on
2020-06-18T07:37:12Z matzy_: nope, still get the stupid shadowing error
2020-06-18T07:38:38Z ffwacom: I don’t know :) still a lisp beginner
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2020-06-18T07:42:39Z kinope^: I'm writing a macro to produce some class definitions and methods, for the first time but I'm getting stuck on how to design the syntax, I find I'm more concerned with the aesthetics of the construct. Are there conventions for designing these types of macros?
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2020-06-18T07:43:03Z matzy_: it's like as if, in your packages.lisp, two (defpackage) forms can't :use the same package, like :use cl
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2020-06-18T07:47:42Z flip214: kinope^: well, if you make it similar to DEFCLASS or DEFSTRUCT it's easier to remember.
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2020-06-18T08:20:04Z kinope^: flip214: okay thanks
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2020-06-18T08:33:34Z _death: flip214: where do you see "the specified item"?
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2020-06-18T08:36:22Z scymtym: (documentation 'remove/delete 'function) in SBCL it seems
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2020-06-18T13:05:43Z jmercouris: can someone help me understand how lambda lists within defmacro forms work?
2020-06-18T13:05:56Z beach: I am sure someone can.
2020-06-18T13:06:02Z jmercouris: for example how come we are allowed to say (defmacro goldfish ((some-argument)))
2020-06-18T13:06:20Z jmercouris: why is it allowed to be nested?
2020-06-18T13:06:33Z beach: So that you can nest the arguments.
2020-06-18T13:06:43Z jackdaniel: because it is specified to be allowed
2020-06-18T13:06:49Z jackdaniel: spec defmacro
2020-06-18T13:07:01Z jackdaniel: hm, I never remember how bots work
2020-06-18T13:07:07Z beach: clhs defmacro
2020-06-18T13:07:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmac.htm
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2020-06-18T13:07:09Z jmercouris: i see, so it is purely an aesthetic reason?
2020-06-18T13:07:13Z beach: No.
2020-06-18T13:07:15Z jackdaniel: beach: thanks
2020-06-18T13:07:19Z jmercouris: or is there some functionality that would otherwise not be possible?
2020-06-18T13:07:32Z beach: jmercouris: Let me give you a simple example.  Give me a minute...
2020-06-18T13:07:43Z beach: clhs with-open-file
2020-06-18T13:07:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm
2020-06-18T13:08:22Z beach: jmercouris: Do you see how the stream filespec, options are inside a list?
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2020-06-18T13:08:43Z jmercouris: could one not conceivably write a with-open-file that was only 1 level deep?
2020-06-18T13:09:04Z _death: the destructuring is for convenience
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2020-06-18T13:09:05Z beach: That would be much harder because of the optional arguments within the list.
2020-06-18T13:09:08Z jmercouris: Yes I see that
2020-06-18T13:09:26Z beach: jmercouris: It would then possibly be ambiguous whether the argument belonged to the filespec or to the body.
2020-06-18T13:09:58Z jackdaniel: superficialy with-open-file lambda list could be (options &rest forms), and then destructured in the macro body
2020-06-18T13:09:59Z jmercouris: aha I see
2020-06-18T13:10:04Z jmercouris: another example could maybe be LET
2020-06-18T13:10:12Z jmercouris: that could be very confusing
2020-06-18T13:10:21Z beach: jmercouris: Like imagine (with-open-file "hello" :direction :input ...)
2020-06-18T13:10:27Z jmercouris: since you can bind something to a value or not, or just make a lexical binding
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2020-06-18T13:10:34Z beach: jmercouris: Is the :direction part of the file spec or the body?
2020-06-18T13:10:41Z jmercouris: yes, I see
2020-06-18T13:10:53Z beach: jmercouris: LET is not a macro.
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2020-06-18T13:11:10Z jmercouris: really?
2020-06-18T13:11:15Z beach: clhs let
2020-06-18T13:11:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2020-06-18T13:11:15Z jmercouris: I was taught that let was a macro and let* was not
2020-06-18T13:11:25Z jmercouris: is it a special form?
2020-06-18T13:11:33Z beach: I gave you the link.
2020-06-18T13:11:36Z jmercouris: ah, special operator
2020-06-18T13:11:54Z beach: You need to find a better teacher.
2020-06-18T13:11:56Z Bike: let* is also a special operator. hypothetically an implementation is allowed to implement them as macros,b ut i don't think any actually do.
2020-06-18T13:12:02Z Bike: and yeah that's a weird thing to be taught.
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2020-06-18T13:12:10Z jmercouris: well, the teacher was an old book :-D
2020-06-18T13:12:16Z phoe: ......how old was that
2020-06-18T13:12:28Z beach: And who was the author?
2020-06-18T13:12:29Z jackdaniel: "fortran 90, the lispy way"
2020-06-18T13:12:31Z jmercouris: this is not the first time the book has been contradicted by reality
2020-06-18T13:12:46Z Bike: i mean, LET is a macro in scheme sometimes (?), but LET* uh... if it even exists, which i don't think it does, would probably be a macro also
2020-06-18T13:12:49Z jackdaniel: you need to find a better book then, what is its title/author?
2020-06-18T13:12:58Z _death: maybe you're misremembering
2020-06-18T13:13:00Z phoe: jackdaniel: I am reminded of a very recent /r/LispMemes post that defines the language named CLOFURE
2020-06-18T13:13:03Z jmercouris: I remember we also had a discussion about symbols and how they actually exist in memory
2020-06-18T13:13:10Z jmercouris: and it was also incorrectly described in the book
2020-06-18T13:13:16Z jmercouris: Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation
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2020-06-18T13:13:24Z beach: What did the book say about symbols?
2020-06-18T13:13:26Z phoe: wait, I don't believe it
2020-06-18T13:13:29Z phoe: minion: tell phoe about gentle
2020-06-18T13:13:30Z minion: phoe: have a look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2020-06-18T13:13:31Z jmercouris: to be fair, it is a rather old book
2020-06-18T13:13:44Z Bike: that is an old book, but it seems hard to believe it would say let is a macro and let* isn't.
2020-06-18T13:13:57Z beach: phoe: Nah, "gentle" is too elementary for jmercouris at this point.
2020-06-18T13:14:12Z Bike: the pdf has not able of contents >:
2020-06-18T13:14:22Z phoe: jmercouris: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf chapter 5.5, PDF page 153
2020-06-18T13:14:30Z jmercouris: hm, I see
2020-06-18T13:14:31Z phoe: "THE LET SPECIAL FUNCTION"
2020-06-18T13:14:43Z beach: "special function"?
2020-06-18T13:14:46Z phoe: calling it a special function is unorthodox, but the "special" part is there
2020-06-18T13:14:51Z jmercouris: I'll find the page number
2020-06-18T13:14:51Z Bike: well, it is, again, old
2020-06-18T13:15:05Z jmercouris: give me a second
2020-06-18T13:15:13Z beach: jmercouris: You still haven't told us what book it was.
2020-06-18T13:15:29Z Bike: he said it was gentle, no?
2020-06-18T13:15:29Z phoe: beach: it seems it's Gentle
2020-06-18T13:15:35Z beach: Oh, sorry.
2020-06-18T13:15:37Z phoe: at least that is how I understood it
2020-06-18T13:15:38Z beach: missed it.
2020-06-18T13:15:50Z beach: Yes, indeed.
2020-06-18T13:15:57Z phoe: he seems to call macros macro functions and specops special functions
2020-06-18T13:16:12Z beach: I really can't recommend that book.
2020-06-18T13:16:14Z jmercouris: OK, look at this
2020-06-18T13:16:21Z jmercouris: Chapter 3, Eval Notation
2020-06-18T13:16:27Z phoe: jmercouris: which PDF page?
2020-06-18T13:16:31Z jmercouris: Page 105
2020-06-18T13:16:31Z jmercouris: this is what we had a discussion about in the past
2020-06-18T13:16:59Z jmercouris: page 117 / 587 in the PDF
2020-06-18T13:17:04Z Bike: oh, yeah, symbols being a block of five pointers
2020-06-18T13:17:25Z beach: Hmm.
2020-06-18T13:17:30Z phoe: that's a description of implementation internals
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2020-06-18T13:17:48Z beach: For some specific implementation, yes.
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2020-06-18T13:18:07Z _death: gentle lies to introduce a language
2020-06-18T13:18:08Z jmercouris: You can see more on page 165 / 587
2020-06-18T13:18:43Z _death: it's called "simplification"
2020-06-18T13:18:45Z jmercouris: anyways, it has misled me a few times :-D
2020-06-18T13:19:08Z phoe: I mean, back in the day it could have been more correct than it is now
2020-06-18T13:19:23Z phoe: that book is from 1989, so before ANSI CL happened
2020-06-18T13:19:26Z jmercouris: I liked the book, it was in fact a gentle introduction :-)
2020-06-18T13:20:22Z jmercouris: anyways, it was good for me when i read it, i wish could know what to forget, and what to remember :-D
2020-06-18T13:20:42Z jmercouris: AKA what is real, what is "simplification"
2020-06-18T13:23:25Z jmercouris: I wonder if I could get the author to allow me to modify it
2020-06-18T13:23:45Z beach: It is outdated.  Not worth updating.
2020-06-18T13:23:55Z jmercouris: lastly, speaking of macros, the old CL cookbook has a great section: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/macros.html
2020-06-18T13:24:07Z phoe: jmercouris: check if the 2013 edition still has this simplification
2020-06-18T13:24:11Z jmercouris: you're probably right, but there are some salvagable components I think
2020-06-18T13:24:15Z jmercouris: like the explanation of cons cells
2020-06-18T13:24:21Z phoe: I can forgive a 1989 book for not conforming to a 1994 specification
2020-06-18T13:24:42Z phoe: but I'm less willing to forgive a 2013 reedition
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2020-06-18T13:25:51Z phoe: jmercouris: perhaps parts of that could be salvaged to the new cookbook, you could try opening an issue on the new cookbook's github page linking to this old page... that is, unless the new page already contains some or most of that content
2020-06-18T13:26:15Z _death: as you learn the language you go deeper into the subtlelities and trivia.. #lisp is an assault on simplifying assumptions
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2020-06-18T13:27:38Z phoe: :D
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2020-06-18T13:31:36Z _death: ultimately the clhs provides for the normative reference and implementations can be examined for the reality
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2020-06-18T16:05:24Z Kabriel_: Any users of Py4CL? I'm having an issue as the python-eval returns a dictionary over the stream
2020-06-18T16:05:34Z Kabriel_: and py4cl::stream-read-value does not correctly convert an entry that is a list to a list
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2020-06-18T16:13:47Z Josh_2: with ningle how do I specify a port? I am trying to setup a dev version of my site on a different port
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2020-06-18T16:18:39Z ebrasca: What is the diference between buffer and cache?
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2020-06-18T16:25:14Z beach: ebrasca: A cache is a data structure that avoids some computation by replacing it with a look-up instead.
2020-06-18T16:25:59Z beach: ebrasca: A buffer is a temporary storage area that lets you group several small operations into one big one.  At least that is one definition.
2020-06-18T16:27:02Z ebrasca: If I am dealing with files , is it called buffer then?
2020-06-18T16:27:37Z beach: That depends on what it is you are doing with those files.
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2020-06-18T16:27:48Z ebrasca: Like file-buffer-stream instead of file-cache-stream
2020-06-18T16:28:03Z ebrasca: streaming , reading , writing
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2020-06-18T16:28:54Z beach: If you are (say) writing to a file, then you don't want each character or byte write to go to disk, so you accumulate into a buffer, and then you write that buffer in one single write to the disk.  That's a buffer.
2020-06-18T16:28:56Z ebrasca: beach: Here file https://github.com/ebrasca/Mezzano/blob/master/file/cache.lisp if implements thinks like read-char.
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2020-06-18T16:29:44Z ebrasca: I think file-cache-stream is bad name then, maybe file-buffer-stream is more apropiate.
2020-06-18T16:30:41Z ebrasca: beach: Thanks!
2020-06-18T16:30:56Z beach: Similarly, if you repeatedly ask for the same block on a disk, in order to avoid accessing the disk each time, you may stick the block in a cache in memory, thereby avoiding the computation (in this case the disk access).
2020-06-18T16:31:45Z beach: Sure.
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2020-06-18T17:13:34Z matzy_: so in the system .asd file, for the :components, each :file that has a :depends-on ("some-package") passes that down to the next files in the list?
2020-06-18T17:14:25Z matzy_: because i get compiler errors when trying to do a :depends-on ("some-package") for multiple :file's
2020-06-18T17:15:35Z matzy_: (like two files depending on packages.lisp for their (defpackage) )
2020-06-18T17:15:50Z phoe: matzy_: what kind of compiler errors?
2020-06-18T17:16:05Z phoe: is your system available somewhere online?
2020-06-18T17:17:59Z matzy_: yeah i have it on github
2020-06-18T17:18:11Z matzy_: i'd just need to push the change that broke it
2020-06-18T17:18:23Z matzy_: the debugger output isnt very helpful
2020-06-18T17:18:26Z matzy_: READ error during LOAD: end of file on #<SB-INT:FORM-TRACKING-STREAM for "file /home/matzy/Development/conway-ff-api/conway-ff-api.asd" {10044A9243}>(in form starting at line: 1, column: 0, position: 0)
2020-06-18T17:18:44Z Bike: that looks like an unclosed parenthesis or suchlike?
2020-06-18T17:19:01Z matzy_: shit you're right
2020-06-18T17:19:39Z Bike: also, if you meant whether (:file "a" :depends-on ("z")) (:file "b") has "b" depending on "z", the answer is no, i'm pretty sure. the order of the components isn't important unless :serial t
2020-06-18T17:20:51Z matzy_: oh, i thought the order of components mattered
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2020-06-18T17:35:42Z manu1511: any lisp dialect one can build terminl user interfaces with, e.g ncurses based?
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2020-06-18T17:36:17Z phoe: manu1511: Common Lisp is just fine for that
2020-06-18T17:36:20Z phoe: see e.g. cl-charms
2020-06-18T17:36:45Z manu1511: or should i juse do them inside emacs, i don't know
2020-06-18T17:36:55Z manu1511: i just like those ui's as they're really fast to navigate
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2020-06-18T18:16:11Z TwoNotes: I know about cl-video, which does video decoding.  Is there a package for video *capture* and compression?
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2020-06-18T18:31:40Z Josh_2: TwoNotes: might have to create a wrapper around FFMPEG
2020-06-18T18:31:46Z Josh_2: as you can record video/audio with that
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2020-06-18T19:02:11Z shka_: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/statistical-learning/blob/21bd5de7d79628921913851cfcdad648bfb34255/examples/covtype.lisp#L100 i added dynamic random forests to the statistical-learning
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2020-06-18T19:14:00Z Josh_2: shka_: very cool :D
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2020-06-18T21:47:32Z Inline: something changed again after some graphics drivers got updated here
2020-06-18T21:47:36Z Inline: heh
2020-06-18T21:48:46Z Inline: i get an unresponsive debugger when i try to use M-w in climacs on some selected text
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2020-06-18T22:51:51Z thmprover: Correct me if I'm wrong: Common lisp doesn't handle recursion, which could be handled through labels, correct?
2020-06-18T22:53:09Z Inline: ?
2020-06-18T22:53:39Z Josh_2: I do not understand
2020-06-18T22:54:20Z Xach: thmprover: incorrect
2020-06-18T22:54:27Z Inline: cl code can be both recursive and iterative, it can be more over imperative, functional, object oriented, declarative....it is multi-paradigm
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2020-06-18T22:55:38Z thmprover: OK, so something like (defun free-of? (var term) (if (symbolp term) (eq var term) (all (lambda (subterm) (free-of? var subterm)) (subterms term))))
2020-06-18T22:56:37Z thmprover: perfectly fine? (I mean, schematically, the recursion's fine, there are other issues with the code)
2020-06-18T22:56:50Z White_Flame: sure
2020-06-18T22:56:54Z Xach: perfectly fine
2020-06-18T22:56:57Z White_Flame: and it might even tail-call optimize
2020-06-18T22:57:18Z Xach: fine aside from using scheme style in common lisp code of course!
2020-06-18T22:57:30Z Xach: but style is so very personal
2020-06-18T22:57:50Z White_Flame: if there's one thing I would pull from scheme it is "?" instead of "-P"
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2020-06-18T22:58:04Z Inline: err noooooo
2020-06-18T22:58:12Z Inline: -p is totally fine
2020-06-18T22:58:18Z thmprover: Yeah, I'm rather fond of the "?" for predicates as well
2020-06-18T22:58:45Z White_Flame: but largely because of both "p" and "-p" being used.  If all uses were "-p" it'd be better
2020-06-18T22:58:47Z Inline: welp, ? is not restricted as a suffix
2020-06-18T22:59:03Z White_Flame: cons-p etc
2020-06-18T22:59:11Z Inline: so it depends on usage
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2020-06-18T22:59:17Z manu1511: (hello)
2020-06-18T22:59:21Z Inline: -p indicates a predicate
2020-06-18T22:59:28Z White_Flame: but so does p, sometimes
2020-06-18T22:59:31Z thmprover: (hellop) but not (hello-p)
2020-06-18T22:59:40Z thmprover: (hello-world-p) but not (hello-worldp)
2020-06-18T22:59:47Z manu1511: -p?
2020-06-18T23:00:08Z Inline: you can't affix P to some var and call it p-var, well actually you can but it signifies too little
2020-06-18T23:00:08Z manu1511: i'm new to lisp, don't know why there are so many dialects
2020-06-18T23:00:13Z White_Flame: the question mark is a better distinguisher
2020-06-18T23:00:21Z White_Flame: manu1511: this channel is specific to Common Lisp
2020-06-18T23:00:30Z White_Flame: and there's lots of dialects because it's a very old language
2020-06-18T23:00:49Z White_Flame: and used in a lot of academic (and otherwise) experimentation
2020-06-18T23:01:08Z White_Flame: and it's very simple to write a new lisp
2020-06-18T23:01:24Z manu1511: common lisp is the big base every other lisp dialect starts from or what is it called... common lisp is a superset?
2020-06-18T23:01:48Z manu1511: i mean common lisp is what all lisp dialect have in common. true?
2020-06-18T23:01:52Z White_Flame: common lisp was a re-merging of a bunch of divergent commercially used vendor-specific lisp implementations
2020-06-18T23:02:10Z Xach: manu1511: not at all
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2020-06-18T23:02:18Z no-defun-allowed: Well, not really, Scheme has call/cc and CL doesn't, and the first CL came after the first Scheme.
2020-06-18T23:02:30Z johntalent: What is a good distro of Lisp to create MineCraft server in?
2020-06-18T23:02:40Z manu1511: if no company is using lisp anymore, why are there still updates to all these dialects and who makes them? all community people?
2020-06-18T23:02:51Z White_Flame: companies still use lisp
2020-06-18T23:02:52Z Xach: manu1511: many companies use lisp
2020-06-18T23:02:55Z White_Flame: just not every company
2020-06-18T23:03:02Z no-defun-allowed: Your premise is wrong; companies do use Lisp.
2020-06-18T23:03:04Z manu1511: Xach: i guess just not for web dev ;/
2020-06-18T23:03:07Z manu1511 is a web dev
2020-06-18T23:03:16Z Xach: manu1511: it is not a popular option, no.
2020-06-18T23:03:28Z Xach: but it is incorrect to write that nobody uses it
2020-06-18T23:03:34Z Josh_2: I use CL for webdev, It's actually very very good for webdev
2020-06-18T23:03:42Z manu1511: nice :) Josh_2
2020-06-18T23:03:49Z Xach: johntalent: sbcl is nice.
2020-06-18T23:03:55Z White_Flame: "companies using software" generally has little to do with their web presence.  The backend, their internal software, and their software deliverables can be anything
2020-06-18T23:03:59Z Inline: maybe you meant web security
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2020-06-18T23:04:23Z Josh_2: johntalent: you can sue ABCL for minecraft as It's built on the JVM, no-defun-allowed has done work with that
2020-06-18T23:04:49Z no-defun-allowed: According to https://www.shodan.io/search?query=Hunchentoot, there are at least 264 publicly facing Hunchentoot (a Common Lisp web server) servers
2020-06-18T23:04:57Z White_Flame: manu1511: plus, there's languages like parenscript that run Lisp in browser (and node) javascript
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2020-06-18T23:05:07Z Inline: but even that would be not a real obstacle, as you can make parts of your software in some other language like C and use those tools (link them in your app)
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2020-06-18T23:05:18Z no-defun-allowed: Josh_2: Please don't sue ABCL.
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2020-06-18T23:05:30Z manu1511: i can't decide on CL vs clojure vs elisp vs racket vs scheme ;/ so many lisps, i wish there is one page that tell about shortly what each dialect use cases are
2020-06-18T23:05:36Z thmprover: USE ABCL it but don't SUE it
2020-06-18T23:05:41Z Josh_2: no-defun-allowed: oops
2020-06-18T23:05:49Z White_Flame: manu1511: the use cases for all are "general programming"
2020-06-18T23:06:01Z Xach: manu1511: this channel is for common lisp so here, common lisp is the greatest and best
2020-06-18T23:06:05Z Josh_2: ^
2020-06-18T23:06:10Z White_Flame: (well, elisp isn't really used outside of emacs much)
2020-06-18T23:06:29Z no-defun-allowed: CL: fun, Scheme, Racket: kinda fun, elisp: not fun
2020-06-18T23:07:09Z johntalent: White_Flame: You are everywhere I go! :p
2020-06-18T23:07:11Z Inline: welp, seems scheme is more of academic interest
2020-06-18T23:07:23Z Inline: it's userbase is huge there
2020-06-18T23:07:32Z johntalent: Xach: ok! :)
2020-06-18T23:07:32Z Inline: and accordingly all the articles etc
2020-06-18T23:07:34Z Josh_2: _death: do you know how to specify a different port with ningle?
2020-06-18T23:07:47Z manu1511: no-defun-allowed: i'd go the other way, elisp is fun :)
2020-06-18T23:08:01Z manu1511: why would i not use emacs when using lisp :D
2020-06-18T23:08:18Z manu1511: but am just newb sorr
2020-06-18T23:08:21Z no-defun-allowed: That is a very anti-Climactic position.
2020-06-18T23:08:39Z johntalent: Josh_2: I was going to simply hold educational classes but MineCraft's EULA is simply "You no make no money, if you make, we make all da monies".
2020-06-18T23:08:44Z no-defun-allowed: And because Elisp isn't really that nice for not-editor stuff.
2020-06-18T23:09:42Z manu1511: no-defun-allowed: what do you write with common lisp day to day or usually?
2020-06-18T23:09:48Z manu1511: give me some examples :)
2020-06-18T23:09:52Z Inline: don't you worry i'll soon issue a new license with "one for me, on for my mommy and one for you"
2020-06-18T23:09:57Z Inline: lol
2020-06-18T23:10:39Z no-defun-allowed: A fairly fast and extensible distributed networking stack, and some things that look a bit like compilers.
2020-06-18T23:12:34Z White_Flame: manu1511: for context about scheme, it was created as an exercise in a minimalistic programming language.  That's very interesting academically, but has a lot of negative consequences in practical application
2020-06-18T23:12:42Z White_Flame: although it's certainly advanced past those roots
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2020-06-18T23:16:10Z Xach: common lisp came about because the us government said "we are not going to write big checks for lisp projects any more if each company/university has their own private lisp and we can't switch around between vendors"
2020-06-18T23:16:19Z Xach: so to keep those checks a-flowing, they got together and made common lisp
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2020-06-18T23:16:43Z Xach: 36 years later and here we are
2020-06-18T23:16:50Z Xach: those big checks stopped flowing anyway :(
2020-06-18T23:17:12Z manu1511: jutt found about paul graham, need to read his essays :)
2020-06-18T23:17:18Z Xach: but common lisp implementations are better than ever
2020-06-18T23:17:47Z Xach: if you want to learn about common lisp in detail, paul graham is not a great source. he does not like common lisp and neglects big chunks of it when writing about it.
2020-06-18T23:18:18Z manu1511: oh okey, so lisp was used once a lot by companies you say?
2020-06-18T23:18:53Z Xach: manu1511: it was once a popular option for anything to do with "AI"
2020-06-18T23:19:03Z bitmapper: White_Flame: i agree about scheme, even r7rs-small is very complete
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2020-06-18T23:19:16Z Josh_2: still seems to be in use just not many companies tell you they are using it
2020-06-18T23:19:34Z manu1511: as a beginner it is so hard to get around all those lisp dialects, but i want to learn lisp as it feels so "magic" but also interesting to me, feeling like a little child again, dont know
2020-06-18T23:20:04Z bitmapper: imo there's only two that really matter
2020-06-18T23:20:05Z Josh_2: should just learn CL
2020-06-18T23:20:07Z bitmapper: scheme and common lisp
2020-06-18T23:20:09Z Josh_2: you are already here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-06-18T23:20:09Z manu1511: Xach: afaik rms was also into AI, it was a big thing back then
2020-06-18T23:20:17Z bitmapper: oh no
2020-06-18T23:20:30Z Xach: manu1511: also not a fan of common lisp and not a great source of insight on the topic
2020-06-18T23:20:37Z Josh_2: once you have one, It's not particularly tough to get the others
2020-06-18T23:20:37Z manu1511: xD
2020-06-18T23:20:52Z manu1511: it is okey, i came from #emacs into #lisp :)
2020-06-18T23:21:00Z bitmapper: the only lisp code i've seen rms write had more comments than code
2020-06-18T23:21:14Z bitmapper: by like a factor of 5
2020-06-18T23:22:06Z Bike: that doesn't seem like a bad thing
2020-06-18T23:22:31Z manu1511: i guess that is what they mean by "literate programming"
2020-06-18T23:24:32Z bitmapper: Bike: it was hard to read
2020-06-18T23:24:40Z White_Flame: since CL is the one with the most practical, deployed usage, that's really the one to go for IMO
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2020-06-18T23:25:37Z White_Flame: the library ecosystem of all the non-top-popularity languages are going to be lacking behind python/js/java/etc, so that's going to be a thing no matter what you learn
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2020-06-18T23:26:00Z White_Flame: but CL has a lot of libs as well, also around webdev
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2020-06-18T23:31:03Z thmprover: Symbols have property lists...does that include function symbols?
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2020-06-18T23:32:41Z Bike: symbols are just names. symbols that name functions aren't different from ones that don't, so if that's what you mean by "function symbol", yes.
2020-06-18T23:32:59Z thmprover: #'foo is treated as the same as 'foo?
2020-06-18T23:33:10Z Bike: no, the first one is a function, the second is a symbol.
2020-06-18T23:33:22Z thmprover: Gotchya
2020-06-18T23:33:36Z aeth: #'foo is sugar for (function foo) and 'foo is sugar for (quote foo)
2020-06-18T23:33:42Z Bike: you can try (type-of #'foo)
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2020-06-18T23:34:28Z thmprover: Thanks :)
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2020-06-18T23:37:49Z manu1511: common lisp really has the most beautiful website of all lisp languages and it also claims to be the "one" and only!
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2020-06-18T23:41:58Z White_Flame: common lisp has pretty direct heritage all the way back
2020-06-18T23:42:40Z White_Flame: but there also is no single group representing common lisp that would own any sort of "official" website
2020-06-18T23:43:27Z johntalent: Josh_2: What is the function to send a packet in ABCL?
2020-06-18T23:45:22Z Josh_2: the stream writing functions
2020-06-18T23:45:33Z Josh_2: like write-sequence, write byte etc
2020-06-18T23:46:07Z johntalent: Josh_2: Oh, so you just pass those functions a socket.
2020-06-18T23:46:48Z Josh_2: see this https://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/
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2020-06-18T23:47:07Z johntalent: Josh_2: I had thought it would look like this: https://gist.github.com/shortsightedsid/a760e0d83a9557aaffcc
2020-06-18T23:47:52Z Josh_2: yes
2020-06-18T23:47:58Z Josh_2: thats UDP
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2020-06-18T23:52:33Z johntalent: Josh_2: I didn't see socket-send in the ABCL documentation.
2020-06-19T00:00:17Z White_Flame: that's a usocket function, not an ABCL function
2020-06-19T00:00:59Z White_Flame: and it's certainly in the usocket documentation: https://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/api-docs.shtml
2020-06-19T00:02:13Z White_Flame: I haven't looked into ABCL's libs, but usocket could very well also pop into java code in its ABCL backend to do networking.  Doesn't really matter to the user of the lib
2020-06-19T00:02:37Z johntalent: okay, so usocket is a lib compatible with abcl.
2020-06-19T00:04:14Z Oladon: Hrm. Anyone have any advice on motivating myself to write a BBCode parser? :P
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2020-06-19T00:06:13Z White_Flame: usocket is a portability library that exposes various implementations' networking functionality in a single portable interface
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2020-06-19T00:07:17Z White_Flame: as well as has some of its own convenience utilities on top
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2020-06-19T00:12:32Z Josh_2: Oladon: that video where the fella goes "just do it" over and over
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2020-06-19T00:14:26Z White_Flame: I do have a parser that could probably do it quite easily, but it isn't as complete as I'd like
2020-06-19T00:14:48Z White_Flame: and is still in flux
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2020-06-19T00:15:28Z White_Flame: with bbcode, if a tag is unbalanced then the tag text just goes out raw, right?
2020-06-19T00:16:42Z White_Flame: Oladon: is this for open source/hobby stuff or for work?
2020-06-19T00:26:57Z Oladon: White_Flame: Hobby stuff
2020-06-19T00:27:13Z Oladon: I think the unbalanced behavior is undefined
2020-06-19T00:29:11Z no-defun-allowed: Oladon, Josh_2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXsQAXx_ao0
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2020-06-19T00:43:42Z White_Flame: ah, mine's not yet ready for bbcode's idiosyncracies
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2020-06-19T00:55:28Z johntalent: White_Flame: How are your commies doing?
2020-06-19T00:55:56Z White_Flame: my commodores are usually boxed & emulated
2020-06-19T00:55:56Z johntalent: White_Flame: mine are all dead.
2020-06-19T00:56:15Z White_Flame: although, this is still #lisp
2020-06-19T00:56:23Z johntalent: i will pm.
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2020-06-19T01:09:42Z johntalent: I am trying to find 'handle-condition'. usocket says it's a lib function but it's no where in it's source code.
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2020-06-19T01:21:48Z White_Flame: Oladon: whee https://pastebin.com/9jednFMK
2020-06-19T01:22:14Z White_Flame: although, I don't have parameterized rules yet, so each [b][/b], [tt][/tt] etc pairing would need its own rule, which is kinda lame
2020-06-19T01:24:13Z White_Flame: but I did mash in the capability to pass through bad nesting
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2020-06-19T02:46:01Z Oladon: White_Flame: Hrm... that's quite straightforward. I might've skipped the part where I need to decide what to do with it once it's parsed, though
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2020-06-19T02:48:50Z White_Flame: yeah, I started from scratch, and from my hatred of regex, to distill what needs to be done to implement new basic text-based langauges
2020-06-19T02:49:21Z White_Flame: and to me, the biggest helper is to split the input into (multi-character) punctuators, tokens, and whitespace
2020-06-19T02:49:41Z White_Flame: in this bbcode, I didn't set up any whitespace, so all text spans between punctuation counts as text tokens inclusive of whitespace, newlines, etc
2020-06-19T02:50:25Z White_Flame: this is destined for open source, but I'm still making breaking changes to it so I haven't made it public
2020-06-19T02:51:53Z White_Flame: but if you figure out what you want to do, and want to try this, I can put something up
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2020-06-19T03:10:02Z Oladon: Yeah, that makes sense. Thankee, really appreciate the offer!
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2020-06-19T03:12:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-06-19T03:12:21Z Oladon: Morning beach!
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2020-06-19T05:14:16Z White_Flame: As a dog returns to its vomit, so too does a programmer return to unfinished problems.
2020-06-19T05:14:22Z White_Flame: Oladon: https://pastebin.com/Vpd7z0BX
2020-06-19T05:14:53Z White_Flame: Now that I added in variables, so that there's a test to ensure that 2 separate tokens match, I think this actually might be everything required
2020-06-19T05:16:18Z White_Flame: it only builds a nested tag structure if a keyword is used between brackets, and it's balanced properly.  Unbalanced tags & unknown stuff between the brackets simply leaves the tokens linear
2020-06-19T05:21:01Z White_Flame: I'll have to do some minor surgery to extract this from the current code base into an indepent file for upload, and that won't be today
2020-06-19T05:21:09Z White_Flame: *independent
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2020-06-19T06:38:52Z kinope^: Hey all! Is it possible to return two separate forms from a macro?
2020-06-19T06:42:14Z kinope^: I want to insert two boilerplate clauses at the end of a case if possible
2020-06-19T06:42:19Z ecraven: you can use PROGN and friends
2020-06-19T06:44:16Z no-defun-allowed: You can't put a macro in a position where it would expand to CASE...cases as far as I know.
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2020-06-19T06:44:56Z no-defun-allowed: (defmacro augmented-case (&body cases) `(case ,@cases (your last) (two clauses))) would be how I approach that kind of thing.
2020-06-19T06:45:33Z White_Flame: well, also the case-var before the &body
2020-06-19T06:45:49Z White_Flame: (case expression I guess, not necessarily a var)
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2020-06-19T06:49:36Z kinope^: no-defun-allowed: Thanks, that's good to know, I can work with that.
2020-06-19T06:50:20Z kinope^: White_Flame: Not entirely sure what you're referring too, sorry
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2020-06-19T06:50:31Z kinope^: *too/to
2020-06-19T06:51:01Z White_Flame: (defmacro augmented-case (value &body cases) `(case ,value ,@cases (end1 foo) (end2 bar)))
2020-06-19T06:51:21Z White_Flame: little fixup that would make it indent better
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2020-06-19T06:51:55Z kinope^: Oh I see! I appreciate that thanks
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2020-06-19T06:55:26Z kinope^: On a completely different subject, does anyone know if common lisp provides a way to determine the LCA (lowest common ancestor) of two classes? It would save me a little bit of work if so.
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2020-06-19T06:59:08Z no-defun-allowed: The first superclass of one class that is a superclass of the other class?
2020-06-19T06:59:08Z beach: kinope^: It probably involves some common suffix of the two precedence lists.
2020-06-19T07:00:23Z kinope^: no-defun-allowed: yes
2020-06-19T07:01:00Z kinope^ goes and googles 'what is a precedence list'
2020-06-19T07:01:17Z beach: mop class-precedence-list
2020-06-19T07:01:18Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-precedence-list.html
2020-06-19T07:01:20Z kinope^: beach: I'll take a look-see, cheers
2020-06-19T07:01:20Z no-defun-allowed: (let ((class1-cpl (c2mop:class-precedence-list class1)) (class2-cpl (c2mop:class-precedence-list class2))) (find-if (lambda (class) (member class class1-cpl)) class2-cpl)) ; is a fairly literal translation of that definition
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2020-06-19T07:11:42Z kinope^: Exactly what I was looking for, thanks guys.
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2020-06-19T13:46:49Z jackdaniel: any volunteers for proofreading a longish post about the terminal control from common lisp?
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2020-06-19T13:47:30Z beach: Sure.  Did you check your articles?
2020-06-19T13:48:29Z jackdaniel: I did my best, but I'll go over them again. Are you sure that you have time for that? I know you are busy, and this post is long.
2020-06-19T13:48:45Z beach: I'll start and see how far I get.
2020-06-19T13:49:00Z jackdaniel: OK, after I recheck my articles I'll send you a link, thank you!
2020-06-19T13:49:13Z beach: Here or some other place?
2020-06-19T13:49:23Z jackdaniel: on irc (but on query)
2020-06-19T13:49:39Z beach: OK.
2020-06-19T13:49:53Z beach: So you don't want the remarks to be public?
2020-06-19T13:50:25Z jackdaniel: they may be public, I just don't want people to read a draft full of mistakes :)
2020-06-19T13:50:32Z beach: Got it.
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2020-06-19T14:21:48Z beach: jackdaniel: We should write a grammar checker that catches those mistakes.  It wouldn't be too hard I think.
2020-06-19T14:22:30Z jackdaniel: grammarly is supposed to do that. but their free browser extension seems to give up on longer texts
2020-06-19T14:23:00Z beach: I see.  I didn't even know they had a free browser version.
2020-06-19T14:23:26Z jackdaniel: it is an extension which checks input boxes in each form for mistakes
2020-06-19T14:23:41Z beach: Nice!
2020-06-19T14:23:44Z beach: ... if it works.
2020-06-19T14:24:01Z jackdaniel: it works for its typical use, it doesn't work for my abuse of the extension :)
2020-06-19T14:24:10Z beach: Heh!
2020-06-19T14:24:13Z beach: Oh, well!
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2020-06-19T15:37:45Z Josh_2: Afternoon all
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2020-06-19T16:01:17Z Inline: evening
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2020-06-19T17:09:32Z jackdaniel: just in case anyone was wondering, here's the published version: https://turtleware.eu/posts/Charming-CLIM-tutorial-part-2--Rethinking-The-Output.html
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2020-06-19T17:12:00Z Xach: jackdaniel: cool
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2020-06-19T17:40:22Z Josh_2: jackdaniel: that is long :P
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2020-06-19T17:44:30Z jackdaniel: it would be longer if I had not skipped the /l2 abstraction with the retained mode and the display list protocol
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2020-06-19T18:26:13Z fe[nl]ix: luis: ping
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2020-06-19T18:51:19Z sveit: maybe this is "trivial", but what is the correct "workflow" with SLIME/SLY for longer/more complicated interactive sessions (if you are familiar, I have in mind the "Jupyter" notebooks)? For example, at present if I want to generate a plot or run a longer one-off piece of code, but want to keep the code around for my reference, i put it in a (prong ...) at toplevel, and comment it out after I run it.
2020-06-19T18:54:33Z sveit: I could probably play some eval-when tricks, but I am sure that people have already thought about this problem. I read online explicit statements that SLY/SLIME is superior to Jupyter, and that is definitely true for the "non-trivial" parts of interactive development (reloading code, classes, FFI, etc.) but I can't seem to figure out how to replicate the "trivial" part of the workflow
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2020-06-19T18:55:20Z sveit: although maybe the answer really is a series of progn's, just want to know what's out there. thanks!
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2020-06-19T19:39:34Z pve: sveit: I put stuff like that in a separate scratch/session file that I load after slime starts up
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2020-06-19T19:44:38Z luis: fe[nl]ix: 'sup
2020-06-19T19:45:44Z sveit: pve: thanks for the reply. one point of friction i have found with this approach is that in the repl, there are "backreferences" (*, **, ***, etc in SLIME and #vN in SLY), but AFAIK there is no substitute for this for work in scratch buffers. when I am just exploring/playing around, this is annoying. do you have a workaround?
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2020-06-19T20:20:58Z pve: sveit: hmm I guess I just try to maximize convenience in the scratch files, e.g. by defining functions with really short names, maybe skip earmuffs etc
2020-06-19T20:22:15Z pve: since it's a scratch file I don't feel that it's necessary to stick to the standard coding style
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2020-06-19T20:27:01Z pve: so instead of *,**,*** just do something like (setf a ... b ... c ... )
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2020-06-19T20:35:51Z sveit: ah ok, thanks. sometimes the SBCL complaints about undefined variables can be off-putting :) when you say session file you don't mean anything special, right? just a scratch file as well?
2020-06-19T20:36:15Z pve: yeah just foo.lisp or session.lisp
2020-06-19T20:37:09Z pve: well you can get creative with macros if you skip standard coding conventions in your scratch files
2020-06-19T20:38:32Z pve: so like alias <- to defparameter or define a!, b!, c! to expand to (defparameter a ...) etc
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2020-06-19T21:09:35Z fe[nl]ix: luis: what does (type-of (mp:make-gate)) return on ACL10 ?
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2020-06-19T21:11:35Z luis: fe[nl]ix: Error: MULTIPROCESSING:MAKE-GATE got 0 args, wanted 1 arg. :P
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2020-06-19T21:12:08Z luis: fe[nl]ix: (ARRAY (SIGNED-BYTE 64) (3))
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2020-06-19T21:14:19Z fe[nl]ix: thanks
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2020-06-19T23:12:58Z seok: where is swank-loader.lisp?
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2020-06-19T23:17:10Z Oladon: White_Flame: noice, thankee!
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2020-06-19T23:22:16Z thmprover: seok: it lives in your slime directory (e.g., ~/.emacs.d/elpa/slime-v2.24/)
2020-06-19T23:23:14Z seok: Ah
2020-06-19T23:24:21Z thmprover: On *nix, you can run `find / -name "swank-loader.lisp" -print` to find it
2020-06-19T23:25:36Z seok: for some reason I thought it came with sbcl
2020-06-19T23:25:40Z seok: time to install emacs first
2020-06-19T23:25:42Z seok: stupid me
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2020-06-19T23:33:00Z seok: what is *nix?
2020-06-19T23:33:02Z seok: I am on ubuntu
2020-06-19T23:33:48Z no-defun-allowed: Un*x but when you don't feel like making it look like a swear word.
2020-06-19T23:33:58Z thmprover: *nix is any Unix-like operating system (including Linux distros like ubuntu)
2020-06-19T23:34:13Z seok: I don't have slime-v2.24 folder in elpa folder
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2020-06-19T23:34:55Z seok: I found it here /home/ubuntu/.quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-v2.24/swank-loader.lisp
2020-06-19T23:34:57Z seok: thanks!
2020-06-19T23:35:05Z thmprover: Anytime :)
2020-06-19T23:35:32Z seok: why is unix censored?
2020-06-19T23:35:41Z seok: ?? it is a swear word? haha
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2020-06-19T23:37:50Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, I usually say Un*x in a context in which I'm annoyed with it.
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2020-06-19T23:45:07Z seok: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Setting-up-Emacs.html#Setting-up-Emacs
2020-06-19T23:45:16Z seok: ssh -L4005:localhost:4005 username@remote.example.com
2020-06-19T23:45:19Z seok: this isn't working for me
2020-06-19T23:45:36Z seok: says plink: unknown option -L ......
2020-06-19T23:46:34Z thmprover: I think ##linux is more suitable for help with regards to that
2020-06-19T23:46:51Z seok: thank you
2020-06-19T23:46:56Z seok: this is on windows tho
2020-06-19T23:47:05Z seok: linux is the remote machine
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2020-06-20T00:43:40Z sveit: I have a need to locally (say restricted to a function definition) "shadow import" some symbols (from :cl, but it shouldn't matter). Is the best/most robust way to do this by a code walker? I am willing to use the SBCL one, but i would prefer a portable solution if it is available.
2020-06-20T00:45:02Z sveit: to be concerete, i have a package :A shadowing some math operators from :cl that I have made generic, and i want to be able to write functions in package :B (defun overloaded-math (x) (a:+ x 1)) but without the package designator, so (with-a-math (defun overloaded-math (x) (+ x 1)))
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2020-06-20T00:48:53Z Bike: there is not really a way to do this at all, because the code is read before it is walked (or whatever), and read-time is when symbols are looked up in packages
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2020-06-20T00:51:30Z sveit: Bike: to be fair I haven't tried it, but I thought that at the very least what i could do is look up symbol-names as i walk in the export list of :a, then have the macro replace that with the symbol looked up in :a?
2020-06-20T00:52:32Z Bike: you could partly do that, but there are some details that make it ill-advised. for example, on sbcl, a backquoted (`) structure will not end up as conses, so your macro couldn't walk such code
2020-06-20T00:54:15Z sveit: Bike: thank you for your response, btw i am being vague because i do not have access to SBCL ATM. i was planning to use the SBCL code walker (as in this post: http://christophe.rhodes.io/notes/blog/posts/2014/naive_vs_proper_code-walking/), and I thought it was supposed to address that type of concern
2020-06-20T00:55:20Z sveit: but if you could suggest what the "right" way to go about doing something like this is, i have had the desire to do something like this several times, and if there is a solution or another way to look at these types of problems that is better suited to CL it would be very useful
2020-06-20T00:56:13Z Bike: usually rather than lexical binding like that, which is kind of mixing phases, i think you'd use (possibly package-local) nicknames
2020-06-20T00:56:24Z Bike: so you'd still write a:+, but the "a" could be real short
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2020-06-20T01:03:36Z sveit: Bike: I see. that's too bad, are there no alternatives? for (somewhat specific) example, if i want to do symbolic math it's a bit unpleasant to see the "a:..." all over the place in complicated expressions.
2020-06-20T01:04:43Z Bike: just to make sure i'm clear on this - you want to have your code use both cl:+ and overloadable:+ regularly?
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2020-06-20T01:08:29Z sveit: Bike: yes. in this example, about half the time i have some fast numerical kernel i want to run in an inner loop or some index computation, so i want to have type declarations, inlining, and no generics, but other times i want the generic symbolic routines
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2020-06-20T01:09:52Z Bike: hm, i'd say that's a bit unusual of a use case
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2020-06-20T01:10:26Z Bike: here's a somewhat weirder idea - just USE the overloaded package, and if you want to use the cl operators, shadow the definition with macrolet or flet (in some with-cl-arithmetic macro)
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2020-06-20T01:14:03Z sveit: Bike: why couldn't i do the same but with my overloaded package?
2020-06-20T01:14:12Z sveit: Bike: thanks for all the responses by the way
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2020-06-20T01:14:27Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean. if you mean shadowing the CL operators, that's not allowed.
2020-06-20T01:15:05Z sveit: Bike: oh, so somethign like (symbol-macrolet ((+ a:+)) (defun test (x) (+ x 1))) is not allowed?
2020-06-20T01:15:19Z sveit: assuming i have (:use :cl)
2020-06-20T01:15:46Z Bike: um, well, symbol-macrolet actually is allowed, but that code won't do what you think it does
2020-06-20T01:16:02Z Bike: but you can't shadow bind CL function definitions, basically
2020-06-20T01:16:30Z Bike: this is because of the common case of implementation code expanding into uses of CL operators unpredictably, and then screwing up with the new definitions
2020-06-20T01:16:43Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm here are the restrictions
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2020-06-20T01:19:15Z sveit: ah. thank you. going back to the "heavy-duty" code walking, and maybe this is too non-portable to be known generally, are you suggesting that it is impractical to do the symbol replacement even if i use sb-walker:walk-form?
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2020-06-20T01:22:04Z Bike: i don't know if it's impractical or if it would actually work. mostly i think it's ugly.
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2020-06-20T01:25:05Z sveit: Bike: thanks for the advice. to confirm, i assume simpler solution would have to use flet to cover cases like (apply #'sin ...) in the body, and hopefully the compiler (with proper hints inserted below the flet) will inline all the internal applies? by internal applies i mean that in general i need to do (flet ((sin (&rest args) (apply #'cl:sin args))) (declare (inline sin)) ...MACROBODY...)
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2020-06-20T01:25:39Z sveit: by simpler solution i mean to just :use and shadow by my overloaded package and having a hook to use the CL code
2020-06-20T01:25:42Z Bike: hopefully. not sure how it would go in practice off the top of my head.
2020-06-20T01:26:01Z Bike: i mean, how the efficiency would go.
2020-06-20T01:26:07Z Bike: pretty sure it would work.
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2020-06-20T01:29:43Z sveit: Bike: great, thanks for all the help. i am actually surprised that something like this is unusual in CL, it seems at least in math there are many applications to having the same operators operators behave dramatically differently depending on input, and for both convenience and performance it can be helpful to take advantage of that information as much as possible
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2020-06-20T01:31:19Z sveit: and be able to signal it to the compiler. SBCL has such incredible type inference and it feels like if more of that was exposed to macros/the programmer very fast and clean code could be written.
2020-06-20T01:32:13Z Bike: i've worked on stuff along those lines myself, but it entails giving programmers fairly deep access to the compiler and i'm not sure what interface would be best for that
2020-06-20T01:32:26Z Bike: the type inference stuff, i mean, not thenames
2020-06-20T01:33:49Z johntalent: What's the best way to learn CL. It has wonderful features, but it numerously daunting.
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2020-06-20T01:40:21Z thmprover: johntalent: I found Norvig's PAIP to be a fun guide through many features of CL.
2020-06-20T01:41:54Z thmprover: https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp contains the text free, plus related code
2020-06-20T01:44:34Z johntalent: CL nah. I had that book. Only the first 110 pages weren't subjected specifically to Artificial Intelligence.
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2020-06-20T02:05:20Z Bike: there's also practical common lisp
2020-06-20T02:05:31Z Bike: but really, none of the AI in PAIP is terribly relevant any more, and it works as a CL introduction
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2020-06-20T02:08:34Z johntalent: Bike: ok
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2020-06-20T02:12:41Z urek_: That is sad, PAIP seems really interesting.
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2020-06-20T02:16:58Z thmprover: Norvig and Russell's "Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach" seems like a better reference for GOFAI
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2020-06-20T02:18:21Z thmprover: Ugh, is there a standard datetime library for CL?
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2020-06-20T02:20:36Z White_Flame: I've used local-time, it worked well for me
2020-06-20T02:21:58Z thmprover: Thanks :)
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2020-06-20T03:20:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-20T05:16:29Z MrtnDk[m]: Goodmorning beach!
2020-06-20T05:18:34Z MrtnDk[m]: I know there is a LISP command to generate a list work a sequence of numbers, but I forget what the name of the command is. What is the name of this command?
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2020-06-20T05:20:34Z beach: What kind of sequence?  A list of N times the same number?  A list of increasing numbers?
2020-06-20T05:22:09Z beach: Or just give an example, and we can figure out how to generate it.
2020-06-20T05:23:12Z no-defun-allowed: You might want #multics for LISP. alexandria:iota is usually what people want for a list of numbers though.
2020-06-20T05:23:18Z beach: And it will be specific to Common Lisp.  Not general for LISP.
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2020-06-20T05:25:04Z edgar-rft: from the CLHS examples: (make-string 10 :initial-element #\5) => "5555555555" - problem solved
2020-06-20T05:26:17Z beach: The specification is still sketchy.
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2020-06-20T05:33:52Z MrtnDk[m]: <beach "What kind of sequence?  A list o"> A list of increasing numbers.
2020-06-20T05:34:05Z beach: Then what no-defun-allowed said.
2020-06-20T05:34:27Z beach: Or you can do (loop for i from 0 below 10 collect i)
2020-06-20T05:35:34Z MrtnDk[m]: iota
2020-06-20T05:36:22Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: iota is not a standard Common Lisp operator (not "command") but it is provided by an external library named Alexandria.
2020-06-20T05:36:43Z MrtnDk[m]: Thank you beach and @theemacsshibe:matrix.org
2020-06-20T05:37:35Z beach: Sure.
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2020-06-20T05:42:32Z beach wonders how many "cool kids" know the history of the name "iota".
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2020-06-20T05:42:56Z MrtnDk[m]: @theemacsshibe:matrix.org: You're right, it doesn't have iota ... I probably need to use a package somehow.
2020-06-20T05:43:21Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: The @ convention is not used on IRC.
2020-06-20T05:43:22Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, that is what the alexandria: prefix is for.
2020-06-20T05:43:39Z MrtnDk[m]: > * <@freenode_beach:matrix.org> wonders how many "cool kids" know the history of the name "iota".
2020-06-20T05:43:39Z MrtnDk[m]: It is a greek word for a Hebrew letter (and Greek letter too, I guess).
2020-06-20T05:43:47Z beach: Heh, yes.
2020-06-20T05:44:15Z no-defun-allowed: Mrtn Dk: Your Matrix client is broken, it emits Matrix user IDs and not those fancy user links.
2020-06-20T05:44:31Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: If you want to address someone, just use the nick followed by colon.  Your IRC client should do it for you.  As in "MrtnDk[m]: bla bla".
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2020-06-20T05:45:08Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Oh, another Matrix problem.
2020-06-20T05:45:15Z no-defun-allowed: The IRC bridge translates the latter to IRC names...wait, no it doesn't. It uses Matrix display names. Oh dear.
2020-06-20T05:45:59Z beach: Wow!
2020-06-20T05:46:08Z MrtnDk[m]: It doesn't seem to work with the prefix in my mobile interpreter: "no such package" .. maybe it works in another LISP?
2020-06-20T05:46:24Z no-defun-allowed: Mrtn Dk: You should investigate how those representations of a user render on https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp
2020-06-20T05:46:49Z no-defun-allowed: Fuck it, I'm off for a tea break.
2020-06-20T05:48:16Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: You need to install alexandria using Quicklisp.  Or you can use the LOOP version I showed you.  And it is "Lisp", not "LISP".
2020-06-20T05:48:27Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Good plan.
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2020-06-20T05:56:19Z no-defun-allowed: Alright then. What are you using to run Lisp code currently, MrtnDk?
2020-06-20T05:56:59Z beach: How was the tea?
2020-06-20T05:57:14Z no-defun-allowed: Pretty good, thanks.
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2020-06-20T13:38:01Z Josh_2: ello all
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2020-06-20T14:20:16Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-06-20T16:45:11Z matzy_`: can anyone help me understand the difference between systems, packaegs, the packages.lisp file, and :depnds-on in the defsystem call?
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2020-06-20T16:46:04Z matzy_`: basically, if i list my quicklisp packages in the defsystem under :depnds-on, they should be globally available in every file right?
2020-06-20T16:46:35Z matzy_`: as long as you prefix the command with their namespace
2020-06-20T16:47:51Z matzy_`: but the in packages.lisp, why have the :use command? just to avoid writing the prefixes?
2020-06-20T16:49:24Z matzy_`: (the :use command within (defpackage))
2020-06-20T16:49:33Z pve: matzy_`: yep
2020-06-20T16:50:32Z matzy_`: ok so what works for compiling, but is shit in the repl
2020-06-20T16:50:43Z matzy_`: when evaluating
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2020-06-20T16:51:40Z matzy_`: which makes sense, you eval parts at a time, it doesnt know global dependencies, but there has to be some other way everyone does this besides manually running (quickload) for all the deps they need for what they are evaluating
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2020-06-20T16:56:30Z phoe: matzy_`: a package is a collection of symbols
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2020-06-20T16:56:51Z phoe: a system is a collection of Lisp files that are compilable-and-loadable together
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2020-06-20T16:57:13Z phoe: :depends-on means that a given system depends on other systems which must be loaded earlier.
2020-06-20T16:57:43Z phoe: systems are an ASDF thing
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2020-06-20T17:00:30Z White_Flame: matzy_`: also, s/quicklisp packages/quicklisp systems/
2020-06-20T17:01:11Z phoe: White_Flame: to be pedantic, it's ASDF systems that are automatically downloadable by Quicklisp
2020-06-20T17:01:26Z matzy_`: phoe: that makes a lot more sense now. thanks!
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2020-06-20T17:25:25Z matzy_`: does anyone use cl-dbi? i'm wondering if each (prepare) you call on your *connection* opens a new connection.  i figured it would just use that same connection, but it's not looking that way
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2020-06-20T17:28:45Z matzy_`: yeah i just kinda answered my own question, that's definitely how it works
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2020-06-20T18:40:55Z matzy_: sorry i got cut off. so right now i'm manually compiling everything in the terminal with quicklisp because i have my projects asd file symlinked to ~/quicklisp/localprojects. But it's terrible compared the emacs repl, is there a way i can get my whole project loaded in there? I'm using asdf:defsystem and a packages.lisp, obviously compiling via quicklisp
2020-06-20T18:41:04Z matzy_: (i assume this is the normal setup)
2020-06-20T18:41:19Z phoe: loaded where?
2020-06-20T18:41:22Z phoe: you mean in the emacs repl?
2020-06-20T18:41:27Z phoe: if yes, (asdf:load-system :foo)
2020-06-20T18:41:41Z phoe: or (ql:quickload :foo)
2020-06-20T18:41:45Z matzy_: sorry mistake - i only symlinked the .asd file of my project folder to ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2020-06-20T18:42:04Z matzy_: yes in the emacs repl
2020-06-20T18:43:31Z matzy_: but i read online you're only supoosed to symlink the .asd file from your working dir to ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2020-06-20T18:43:46Z phoe: wait, what do you mean, the .asd file?
2020-06-20T18:44:06Z phoe: you need a full directory - the ASD file describes the files to be loaded
2020-06-20T18:44:18Z phoe: and ASDF is going to be surprised if it doesn't find the files it is supposed to load
2020-06-20T18:44:42Z matzy_: A user from here told me the opposite
2020-06-20T18:45:04Z matzy_: I went with his advice, and it has worked
2020-06-20T18:45:30Z matzy_: it compiles fine in sbcl with (ql:quickload :lisp-proj)
2020-06-20T18:45:37Z phoe: hmmmmm
2020-06-20T18:45:48Z phoe: it's nothing I've personally done, so I cannot say anything about it
2020-06-20T18:46:02Z matzy_: you just link the whole dir?
2020-06-20T18:46:10Z phoe: yep
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2020-06-20T18:46:28Z White_Flame: it might even deep-search for .asd files from the symlinks, but don't quote me on that
2020-06-20T18:47:09Z matzy_: yeah i might have to read up about that, it was @Harang on here, he seems pretty experienced
2020-06-20T18:47:13Z White_Flame: running quickload from sbcl in the terminal, or sbcl in the slime repl, should do the exact same thing
2020-06-20T18:47:25Z White_Flame: what's different between the two that you're seeing?
2020-06-20T18:49:09Z matzy_: i get a different backtrace
2020-06-20T18:49:19Z matzy_: but maybe the one in ielm is better
2020-06-20T18:49:24Z phoe: ielm?...
2020-06-20T18:49:33Z phoe: what's the actual error that you are getting?
2020-06-20T18:49:39Z pve: phoe: are you saying you link entire directories into local-projects/ ?
2020-06-20T18:49:39Z phoe: "a different backtrace" doesn't really give me any news
2020-06-20T18:49:42Z matzy_: oh nvm thats elisp
2020-06-20T18:49:44Z phoe: pve: I do
2020-06-20T18:49:50Z pve: oh
2020-06-20T18:49:58Z phoe: is that considered bad practice?
2020-06-20T18:50:12Z White_Flame links dirs as well
2020-06-20T18:50:22Z pve: no idea, I've never considered doing it
2020-06-20T18:51:02Z matzy_: let me quick sbcl and try one more time just to make sure
2020-06-20T18:51:25Z White_Flame: from the faq: "Can I load a local project that isn't part of Quicklisp?
2020-06-20T18:51:25Z White_Flame: Yes. The easiest way is to put the project's directory in Quicklisp's local-projects directory."
2020-06-20T18:51:45Z White_Flame: so symlinking a directory would be the equivalent
2020-06-20T18:52:35Z pve: phoe: earlier, asdf had a central registry to which directories were pushed, and those dirs contained symlinks to asd-files
2020-06-20T18:52:40Z aeth: I always symlink in there, but it's technically implementation-specific behavior. Iirc, it won't be recognized in CCL unless it was already loaded from another implementation first (thus putting it in a cache)
2020-06-20T18:52:46Z pve: so that practice just stuck
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2020-06-20T18:52:59Z aeth: (by "there", I mean local-projects)
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2020-06-20T18:53:07Z pve: i mean symlinking asd-files
2020-06-20T18:53:13Z White_Flame: aeth: symlink a file or a dir?
2020-06-20T18:53:16Z phoe: pve: it still has that registry, I think
2020-06-20T18:53:17Z aeth: White_Flame: directory
2020-06-20T18:53:35Z pve: I never had a problem with the registry tbh
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2020-06-20T18:54:50Z pve may start symlinking dirs from now on
2020-06-20T18:56:07Z matzy_: if i go in sbcl in a termainl and run (ql:quickload :my-app), and then start slime and run (ql:quickload :my-app), should sbcl compile fune and run while slime throws a socket already in use error?
2020-06-20T18:56:18Z matzy_: ohhhhh prob bc this is a webserver
2020-06-20T18:56:23Z White_Flame: the compilation itself is lazy
2020-06-20T18:56:29Z theseb: So I've been enjoying writing a minimal Lisp and writing programs for it.  Lisp is definitely more *mathemtically* elegant than Python.  I want to believe I can develop FASTER in my Lisp-ish language than Python but it seems like the parens do slow down visual analysis of code....Now I may just be faster in Python because I've used it for nearly 17 years but not sure
2020-06-20T18:56:32Z pve: matzy_: btw asdf looks for systems in ~/common-lisp/ as well
2020-06-20T18:56:49Z White_Flame: matzy_: if you have compile-time effects that aren't saved in the .fasls, that might be the problem.
2020-06-20T18:57:00Z aeth: I wonder why ASDF doesn't look in ~/git
2020-06-20T18:57:06Z aeth: Does anyone else put their stuff in ~/git?
2020-06-20T18:57:15Z aeth: I guess it made more sense back when ~/hg and ~/svn were also things
2020-06-20T18:57:37Z White_Flame: aeth: I do, and I used to have ~/git symlinked into local-projects, but that can get into collisions quickly if you have multiple versions of a project simultaneously checked out, etc
2020-06-20T18:57:42Z matzy_: oh wait it is running in slime now, wtf
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2020-06-20T18:58:00Z White_Flame: s/into/from/
2020-06-20T18:58:15Z matzy_: but its weird because the program is a webserver and it would be listening on teh same port
2020-06-20T18:58:22Z aeth: I also have a ~/programming and a ~/src and a ~/notes because I'm a disorganized mess, but the real repos all go in ~/git for me
2020-06-20T18:58:36Z White_Flame: single-parent heirarchies are unmanageable
2020-06-20T18:58:36Z matzy_: so i could see it being smart and refusing the second instance
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2020-06-20T18:58:45Z aeth: Organizing by version control instead of by language makes a ton of sense because then you can write something like e.g. my git-pull script
2020-06-20T18:59:03Z aeth: Essentially just a bunch of cd followed by "git pull"
2020-06-20T18:59:20Z matzy_: oh no i did get an error, i just aborted. nbm
2020-06-20T18:59:51Z matzy_: so after compiling in sbcl it doesn't work in slime
2020-06-20T18:59:58Z phoe: what's the error?
2020-06-20T19:00:11Z matzy_: socket already in use
2020-06-20T19:00:17Z matzy_: it must be smart
2020-06-20T19:00:17Z phoe: that's a programming error
2020-06-20T19:00:31Z matzy_: huh? not from the webserver lib?
2020-06-20T19:00:46Z phoe: that's an error in the code
2020-06-20T19:00:55Z phoe: you are using a socket that is already bound
2020-06-20T19:00:59Z phoe: why is it bound?
2020-06-20T19:01:01Z matzy_: i thought it's saying "sorry, you already have a server on port 5000)
2020-06-20T19:01:07Z phoe: that's exactly the case
2020-06-20T19:01:14Z aeth: White_Flame: but, yeah, you're right, looking at ~/git automatically is probably a bad idea. My stuff is obviously up to date, but a lot of the other stuff can be months/years out of date and behind the current QL stuff because I only update when there's a bugfix (or when I need to make a bugfix) more current than QL... basically a temporary override.
2020-06-20T19:01:16Z phoe: and you need to answer the question what is running on your port 5000
2020-06-20T19:01:23Z phoe: what is running there?
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2020-06-20T19:01:35Z matzy_: hunchentoot
2020-06-20T19:01:50Z White_Flame: are you starting the server at toplevel from your source code, or manually at the repl?
2020-06-20T19:02:04Z matzy_: so i need to change my acceptor port before being able to do (ql:quickload :my-proj) in slime
2020-06-20T19:02:42Z matzy_: i started first from ~ with sbcl, compiled fine, then opened up the project in spacemacs and tried the same in slime
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2020-06-20T19:02:52Z White_Flame: stop saying "compile" :)
2020-06-20T19:03:00Z White_Flame: where/how are you starting the server?
2020-06-20T19:03:06Z matzy_: i thought quickload compiles?
2020-06-20T19:03:12Z White_Flame: it fully loads
2020-06-20T19:03:17Z White_Flame: which will include running toplevel code
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2020-06-20T19:03:20Z matzy_: so it evals?
2020-06-20T19:03:28Z matzy_: basically?
2020-06-20T19:03:33Z White_Flame: compilation is a side-effect of loading in this manner
2020-06-20T19:03:34Z phoe: it compiles stuff and then it loads stuff
2020-06-20T19:03:51Z matzy_: ok so it is compiling
2020-06-20T19:04:02Z phoe: to be pedantic, ASDF does these things
2020-06-20T19:04:07Z White_Flame: so if your toplevel code is automatically starting the server, then your server is running in your terminal and taking up the port
2020-06-20T19:04:08Z phoe: compiling stuff executes compile-time side effects
2020-06-20T19:04:08Z matzy_: sorry i came from C originally, its weird to be back in a compiled language
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2020-06-20T19:04:15Z phoe: loading stuff - load-time side effects
2020-06-20T19:04:30Z phoe: and these are separate
2020-06-20T19:04:35Z matzy_: ahhhh
2020-06-20T19:04:44Z White_Flame: you should have a call to start the server, then run that from the repl intentionally
2020-06-20T19:05:01Z White_Flame: instead of implicitly
2020-06-20T19:05:27Z matzy_: so that's why semed to load fine, but then threw the 'compilation unit aborted' error
2020-06-20T19:05:41Z White_Flame: yep, the 2nd exection while the 1st was still running
2020-06-20T19:05:41Z matzy_: i actually do have that
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2020-06-20T19:06:16Z matzy_: i have (start-server) and (stop-server) funtions
2020-06-20T19:06:59Z phoe: do you call (start-server) somewhere in your code?
2020-06-20T19:07:11Z phoe: could you upload your code to some online location?
2020-06-20T19:07:27Z matzy_: start-server first runs stop server, which checks if the acceptor exists or is active, and then stops it, and then start server sets the acceptor
2020-06-20T19:07:52Z matzy_: sure, its aready up
2020-06-20T19:08:01Z matzy_: lemme make sure i committed everything
2020-06-20T19:08:40Z matzy_: https://github.com/cmatzenbach/conway-ff-api
2020-06-20T19:08:53Z matzy_: server.lisp is really the only important file
2020-06-20T19:09:09Z matzy_: and yeah, i know the db.lisp is beyond retarted, i'm working on that
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2020-06-20T19:14:03Z matzy_: White_Flame: ahhhh, because in prod I will want this to kick off automatically, so in main.lisp I do that (last file loaded), but for use with the repl i should comment that out and run in emacs?
2020-06-20T19:15:04Z phoe: https://github.com/cmatzenbach/conway-ff-api/blob/0e2fb76f471f037cdb4e92892a46c993b97fbda4/main.lisp#L3
2020-06-20T19:15:10Z phoe: this is where the port is bound
2020-06-20T19:15:54Z phoe: if you close all of your Lisp processes, is port 5000 open on your machine?
2020-06-20T19:16:09Z matzy_: comment out (start-server) in main.lisp, (ql:quickload) in sbcl repl, then run (main:start-server) in slime?
2020-06-20T19:16:29Z matzy_: phoe: no, if i kill emacs and sbcl, it;s down
2020-06-20T19:16:57Z matzy_: i'm actually not bothering with docker right now, but i did get that working (first container every too!)
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2020-06-20T19:19:13Z matzy_: phoe: yeah just confirmed that stops everything
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2020-06-20T19:19:57Z matzy_: so what's the normal process here when using quicklisp and slime?  i assume almost everyone does?  what am i fucking up?
2020-06-20T19:19:57Z phoe: matzy_: good! now run lisp and (ql:quickload :conway-ff-api)
2020-06-20T19:20:09Z phoe: matzy_: I think that using ql and slime is the preferred way, yes
2020-06-20T19:20:10Z matzy_: from a terminal?
2020-06-20T19:20:27Z matzy_: or slime?
2020-06-20T19:20:59Z phoe: your choice
2020-06-20T19:21:06Z phoe: I think slime, since that'll allow you to then develop stuff
2020-06-20T19:21:22Z matzy_: just as long as it's not both?  was that my issue?
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2020-06-20T19:22:02Z matzy_: cool loaded fine with no error in slime
2020-06-20T19:22:44Z phoe: matzy_: you can't load both at the same time
2020-06-20T19:22:51Z phoe: there's only one port 5000 on your machine
2020-06-20T19:23:03Z phoe: so you can't bind it twice.
2020-06-20T19:23:23Z matzy_: yeah i see now.  have a problem though - slime loaded fine, but my routes are returning 404's
2020-06-20T19:23:39Z matzy_: change package?
2020-06-20T19:23:56Z phoe: the package shouldn't have anything to do with how hunchentoot works
2020-06-20T19:24:29Z matzy_:  alright i'm gonna kill slime and inferior lisp and run through terminal and sbcl
2020-06-20T19:24:39Z matzy_: that was working before, hence this whole thing
2020-06-20T19:25:15Z phoe: huh?
2020-06-20T19:25:45Z matzy_: nvm i clearly have a bug somewhere
2020-06-20T19:25:48Z phoe: if you run it in terminal and then do (ql:quickload :conway-ff-api)
2020-06-20T19:25:55Z phoe: then it should work exactly the same way as if you did that in slime
2020-06-20T19:27:11Z matzy_: ok yeah it was a bug in a route
2020-06-20T19:27:39Z matzy_: i didnt even try to hit that route, hunchentoot is brutal
2020-06-20T19:29:17Z matzy_: still didnt work in slime, hunchentoot loads but i get a 404
2020-06-20T19:29:44Z matzy_: oh wait, i need to change the port before running in slime
2020-06-20T19:31:52Z matzy_: yeah for some reason running (exit) or (quit) for me in sbcl just freezes my terminal, so I just kill the term.  so maybe it hadn't shut down yet.  but changing the port and running quickload again in slime worked great.  THANK YOU!
2020-06-20T19:32:10Z phoe: <3
2020-06-20T19:32:16Z matzy_: you guys are the best
2020-06-20T19:33:04Z matzy_: although i find it crazy that cl packages/systems whatever do have docs, but the docs never have examples
2020-06-20T19:33:13Z phoe: actually
2020-06-20T19:33:23Z phoe: http://index-of.es/Programming/Lisp/Lisp%20Mess/Erann%20Gat%20-%20Idiots%20Guide%20To%20Lisp%20Packages.pdf
2020-06-20T19:33:37Z phoe: forgive the offensive title, the actual content is pretty nice
2020-06-20T19:34:03Z phoe: there's also a little bit of tutorial at https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/systems.html for ASDF
2020-06-20T19:34:56Z matzy_: the lisp cookbook has been the only good thing i've found
2020-06-20T19:35:05Z matzy_: that other one is great though, thanks
2020-06-20T19:37:44Z matzy_: it would be nice to have a few solid examples of packages.lisp files online though, it gets really confusing with asd and the old packing documentation and there really aren't any out there
2020-06-20T19:38:08Z matzy_: *old packaging (per file)
2020-06-20T19:39:08Z matzy_: this explains the asd part well but not the packages.lisp
2020-06-20T19:42:40Z phoe: matzy_: there's no real need for packages.lisp
2020-06-20T19:42:56Z phoe: it's just common for package(s) to be declared in a separate file
2020-06-20T19:43:17Z phoe: see https://github.com/phoe/phoe-toolbox for an example of both
2020-06-20T19:43:23Z phoe: bag.lisp defines its own package.
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2020-06-20T19:49:02Z matzy_: ah cool, nice example, thanks
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2020-06-20T20:34:42Z TwoNotes: There seem to be several packages with the name 'cl-v4l2' around.  Is any one in particular considered the best?
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2020-06-20T20:58:04Z phoe: TwoNotes: I guess whatever https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/blob/master/projects/cl-v4l2/source.txt points at
2020-06-20T20:58:42Z TwoNotes: Ok, the one from CZ.  I will start with that one
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2020-06-20T22:02:15Z Josh_2: in postmodern if I redefine a class with the metaclass :dao-class does it change the table within the database?
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2020-06-20T22:02:28Z phoe: don't think so
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2020-06-20T22:05:24Z Josh_2: hmm
2020-06-20T22:05:27Z Josh_2: so would just make a new table
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2020-06-20T22:19:41Z Josh_2: not being able to change tables by changing the class is a bit annoy. I think I will just avoid using a database at first
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2020-06-20T22:24:01Z phoe: but then again, you could likely try it out yourself
2020-06-20T22:24:19Z phoe: define a dao-class with one slot, check in postgres
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2020-06-20T22:24:24Z phoe: redefine a dao-class with three slots, check in postgres
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2020-06-21T00:18:55Z White_Flame: matzy_: one last thing that I don't think was mentioned: if you build an executable to deploy, you can tell it which function to call on startup of the executable
2020-06-21T00:19:26Z White_Flame: so that's still left as a function to call in the code, not directly executed on load, but a separate step that the startup does
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2020-06-21T00:20:57Z White_Flame: another option is to have a batch file launch sbcl & give it cmdline parameters to tell it what to load & execute, or to run a small separate .lisp file which triggers the startup code, which is not quickloaded by default
2020-06-21T00:21:31Z White_Flame: but yeah, starting stuff automatically on load via toplevel code, especially when it takes up resources like a socket, isn't a good way to do it
2020-06-21T00:21:46Z White_Flame: maybe for doing some quick interactive iterations, but that's then removed once you've settled in on what you want to do
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2020-06-21T01:05:12Z Josh_2: phoe: I think it does update automatically
2020-06-21T01:05:33Z Josh_2: https://imgur.com/7AAvigi.png
2020-06-21T01:05:51Z no-defun-allowed: Only on the Lisp side.
2020-06-21T01:06:03Z Josh_2: so the table beneath has not :O
2020-06-21T01:06:17Z no-defun-allowed: I recall the manual specified that table migration hasn't been done yet.
2020-06-21T01:06:25Z Josh_2: sigh
2020-06-21T01:06:42Z Josh_2: I will do the database stuff once I have a beta version going
2020-06-21T01:07:41Z Josh_2: for now I can use normie classes
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2020-06-21T03:34:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-21T03:44:10Z Josh_2: Good morning beach
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2020-06-21T05:06:15Z no-defun-allowed: Josh_2: Well, you probably should have a storage protocol, which would allow you to switch between in-memory, filesystem, database backends, and so on.
2020-06-21T05:07:08Z no-defun-allowed: If you change how you use that database (eg the representation and tables), that would also reduce the amount of code you have to update.
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2020-06-21T15:48:25Z Josh_2: no-defun-allowed: initially I'm not going to have any persistent storage until I know what I want the interface to be
2020-06-21T15:48:37Z Josh_2: I will just test directly in the lisp image
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2020-06-21T18:12:20Z bhartrihari: Is there a hope for any lisp implementation to support saving a lisp image running several threads? Has this been attempted in the past?
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2020-06-21T18:28:40Z Josh_2: huh?
2020-06-21T18:28:46Z Josh_2: why would you need to do that?
2020-06-21T18:29:12Z Josh_2: just start the threads when the image starts
2020-06-21T18:29:46Z bhartrihari: To save state across slime sessions.
2020-06-21T18:30:48Z bhartrihari: Josh_2: ^^
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2020-06-21T18:38:58Z Josh_2: hmm
2020-06-21T18:39:19Z Josh_2: but you can save your lisp image, then you can connect to it with slime and that will save your slime session
2020-06-21T18:39:27Z Josh_2: thats how I work on many of my projects
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2020-06-21T18:54:29Z bhartrihari: Josh_2: What about the state changes during the slime session? They will be lost. I'm just wondering if people have attempted it, or if it is even possible.
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2020-06-21T18:57:14Z Josh_2: Just don't kill your image :P
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2020-06-21T19:05:05Z Lycurgus has moved to sly
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2020-06-21T19:11:17Z bhartrihari: I moved to sly, then moved back to slime.
2020-06-21T19:14:14Z pve: how does sly compare to slime?
2020-06-21T19:14:48Z pve: better in some ways, or strictly better?
2020-06-21T19:15:08Z Lycurgus: bhartrihari: why?
2020-06-21T19:16:08Z Josh_2: Lycurgus: I have been using it for ages
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2020-06-21T19:17:04Z Lycurgus: strictly better by default if at all since it's a fairly clear scope, cl emacs debug/ide things
2020-06-21T19:18:04Z Lycurgus: Josh_2: 'it' being sly?
2020-06-21T19:18:43Z Lycurgus: that and it (sly) runs direct against slime, name and all
2020-06-21T19:18:49Z Josh_2: yes
2020-06-21T19:19:04Z Lycurgus: ah
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2020-06-21T19:20:27Z Lycurgus: well i wanted clasp to be aware of other cl's and they looked at me like I'd sprouted a second head
2020-06-21T19:21:19Z Lycurgus: also i didn think sly was ages old, for which I would have needed at least a decade
2020-06-21T19:22:44Z Lycurgus: MVS 3.8 is ages
2020-06-21T19:23:53Z Lycurgus: sbcl as the going cmucl is ages
2020-06-21T19:24:07Z Lycurgus: sly as the new slime i didn no
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2020-06-21T19:25:33Z bhartrihari: Lycurgus: Editing multiline sexps was troublesome (for me at least) in Sly repl. I usually ended up pressing the up arrow and brought up the last history item, instead of moving a line up.  Presentations are nice as well, although I don't have any special preference for them over buttons. And colours, (Yikes!) Sly needs to desaturate the colours a bit. And I use spacemacs, and Sly layer for spacemacs was
2020-06-21T19:25:33Z bhartrihari: n't outdated. I also never used the reading aids sly provided (colours).
2020-06-21T19:26:22Z Lycurgus: i c
2020-06-21T19:26:34Z bhartrihari: I mean, sly spacemacs layer was outdated.
2020-06-21T19:26:55Z Lycurgus: i forget what spacemace is
2020-06-21T19:27:35Z Lycurgus: *emacs
2020-06-21T19:27:35Z bhartrihari: It's a layer of Elisp goodness over emacs. An Emacs distro.
2020-06-21T19:28:01Z Lycurgus: i just use regular emacs, but I did in past use xemacs
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2020-06-21T19:28:27Z Lycurgus: there are typos in the sly documenation
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2020-06-21T19:28:41Z Lycurgus: like the ctl seq to select the lisp to run
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2020-06-21T19:29:16Z Lycurgus: but i think it's small minded to harp on stuff like that if the end thing/goal was done
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2020-06-21T19:33:49Z bhartrihari: I'll check it out again, it seems to have improved since I last checked.
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2020-06-21T19:44:42Z White_Flame: bhartrihari: even if saving an image paused & saved all the running threads, the sockets would all be lost, and SLIME would need specific support for resuming sessions with a new socket connection.
2020-06-21T19:44:57Z White_Flame: it wouldn't be transparent, and could theoretically be implemented even without thread serialization
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2020-06-21T19:50:02Z bhartrihari: I see. It could also be useful for saving game state, and in other things. I'm not sure how implementing that (saving repl state via slime) without thread serialization would look like.
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2020-06-21T19:51:15Z bhartrihari: White_Flame: ^^
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2020-06-21T19:53:09Z White_Flame: it's a pretty big "theoretically" ;)
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2020-06-21T20:00:28Z bhartrihari: Does smalltalk do thread serialization while saving images?
2020-06-21T20:01:14Z Xach: bhartrihari: this is a channel for common lisp
2020-06-21T20:02:17Z White_Flame: a random stackoverflow answer seems to indicate it does, so it is different than CL in that respect
2020-06-21T20:02:23Z White_Flame: CL doesn't serialize the "main thread" either
2020-06-21T20:02:34Z White_Flame: only basically the heap
2020-06-21T20:03:16Z bhartrihari: Xach, of course. But this was brought up in a conversation about saving runtime images in Common Lisp implementations.
2020-06-21T20:05:54Z bhartrihari: Lycurgus, Also, slime can connect to schemes as well, using r7rs-swank.
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2020-06-21T20:09:03Z xristos: bhartrihari: it does, you can try it out yourself if you open transcript and execute the following in a workspace window (assuming Squeak)
2020-06-21T20:09:06Z xristos: [1 to: 10 do:[ :i | Transcript show:i. Transcript cr. 1 seconds asDelay wait.]] fork.
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2020-06-21T20:09:21Z xristos: then quit/save while the process is running
2020-06-21T20:10:30Z refpga: Thanks xristos
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2020-06-21T20:12:10Z xristos: there's a patch for Lua to do the same
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2020-06-21T20:14:37Z bhartrihari: Thanks, I'll take look at their image formats and how they do it.
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2020-06-21T20:16:52Z xristos: for CL, in practice a lot of your state is in memory (which will be dumped in an image)
2020-06-21T20:17:45Z xristos: for state present in stack frames you usually checkpoint execution, serialize to memory, dump, deserialize and create new threads on image load
2020-06-21T20:18:23Z xristos: not as convenient as saving/resuming the world but works quite well in practice
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2020-06-21T20:19:11Z bhartrihari: Do you happen to know how that compares to smalltalk? How do they serialize threads?
2020-06-21T20:20:59Z xristos: you can probably find good uptodate references online
2020-06-21T20:21:32Z bhartrihari: Sure. Thanks.
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2020-06-21T20:31:07Z Lycurgus: in fine, smalltalk threads are probably not what you think they are (machine, os ones) while common lisp ones are more likely to be
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2020-06-21T20:51:40Z White_Flame: bhartrihari: smalltalk seems to have a specified VM bytecode, which would encapsulate a standard execution state to serialize.  CL is intended for whatever native compilation, with no standard intermediate/lower level representation
2020-06-21T20:52:40Z bhartrihari: I see.
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2020-06-21T21:49:12Z phao: Hi. Wasn't there a wiki for this channel?
2020-06-21T21:49:48Z phao: I think I was confused. I was thinking about this one: https://www.cliki.net/
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2020-06-21T21:52:44Z phao: Another question. I've heard it is possible to use the PAIP book by Norvig to learn the basics of common lisp and of AI together. Is it true or do I have to learn common lisp before going for PAIP?
2020-06-21T21:54:05Z xristos: PAIP contains a good introduction to CL, but it's not really about modern AI
2020-06-21T21:54:45Z Kozo: Anyone have an opinion on "Common Lisp in the Wild"?
2020-06-21T21:55:09Z phao: xristos, I see. All I wanted was a book on common lisp "with some applications"
2020-06-21T21:55:16Z phao: that it isn't about modern AI is fine by me.
2020-06-21T21:55:23Z xristos: phao: it's a great book and a good intro
2020-06-21T21:55:41Z phao: Thank you. Any chances you have a better recommendation?
2020-06-21T21:55:50Z phao: I intend to go on onto books later on.
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2020-06-21T21:56:54Z xristos: on lisp and let over lambda are more advanced books, both worth reading after you've written some Lisp and are comfortable with macros
2020-06-21T21:57:21Z phao: Ok.
2020-06-21T21:57:46Z xristos: the art of the metaobject protocol too
2020-06-21T21:58:19Z xristos: i would avoid practical common lisp, it's dated and doesn't have much to offer
2020-06-21T21:58:25Z xristos: PAIP is a better time investment
2020-06-21T21:59:22Z phao: I see. I actually would have guessed practical common lisp would be a better option. I didn't "go for it" because of the selection of topics in there.
2020-06-21T21:59:26Z phao: PAIP seems way more interesting.
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2020-06-21T21:59:46Z xristos: well, PAIP is a great book, almost a work of art
2020-06-21T22:00:11Z xristos: PCL is your run-of-the-mill language book
2020-06-21T22:00:22Z xristos: so if you'll only read one, make it count
2020-06-21T22:01:30Z phao: Hehe ok
2020-06-21T22:02:23Z Josh_2: wait now we have a phoe and a phao that's gonna get confusing
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2020-06-21T23:16:34Z Xach: practical common lisp is a very good book that covers parts of Common Lisp that is not treated with much detail by PAIP or any other CL book.
2020-06-21T23:16:55Z Xach: the creative use of method combinations for parsing binary file formats is a great illustration of their utility.
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2020-06-22T00:04:09Z grewal:  /scrollback goto -100
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2020-06-22T03:04:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-06-22T03:07:57Z Josh_2: Morning!
2020-06-22T03:13:59Z ebrasca: Morning!
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2020-06-22T03:18:37Z beach: I am thinking of making another SICL-related presentation for phoe's online Lisp meeting, but I need some ideas for the exact topic.
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2020-06-22T03:19:45Z ebrasca: beach: When is this phoe meeting?
2020-06-22T03:20:09Z beach: Nominally a week from now, every other Monday.  But the schedule is not fixed.
2020-06-22T03:20:25Z beach: I have been thinking about it the wrong way for a few days.  I am thinking ELS, but the online Lisp meeting is not an academic conference.
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2020-06-22T03:33:59Z ebrasca: beach: What do you use for this meetings?
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2020-06-22T03:34:32Z beach: Use?
2020-06-22T03:34:52Z beach: I record something using OBS, and then phoe streams it using Twitch.
2020-06-22T03:36:22Z ebrasca: Are you sure it is metting and not streaming?
2020-06-22T03:37:46Z no-defun-allowed: There are some recorded presentations, then the participants gather on heisig's Jitsi server after the presentations.
2020-06-22T03:38:39Z beach: ebrasca: Why do you ask me about phoe's stuff.  I don't know much.  He calls it the "online Lisp meeting", and he takes pre-recorded presentations and streams them.  Twitch also allows an IRC-like chat simultaneously with the presentation.
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2020-06-22T03:41:03Z ebrasca: beach: Sory , I was interested.
2020-06-22T03:41:14Z beach: You need to ask phoe.
2020-06-22T03:42:07Z ebrasca: beach: Thanks for the info!
2020-06-22T03:43:43Z beach: Sure.
2020-06-22T03:43:55Z beach: So, no help for me with a topic. Oh well.
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2020-06-22T03:47:47Z ebrasca: beach: I am thinking , maybe optimizations sicl can make or mmmm
2020-06-22T03:48:20Z ebrasca: beach: maybe about how sicl can use full lisp to implements its parts
2020-06-22T03:48:38Z beach: That's an idea.  Thank.s
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2020-06-22T09:06:53Z phoe: oh right
2020-06-22T09:07:06Z phoe: if anyone'd like to talk about something during the next Lisp meeting, the slot's freeeeeee
2020-06-22T09:08:06Z no-defun-allowed: The meeting is next Monday, right?
2020-06-22T09:08:23Z phoe: (I mean that I assume that beach's talk is not going to fill a whole hour, which means that we still have time available)
2020-06-22T09:08:46Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: if I manage to announce it today, then I'll announce it for next Monday, yes
2020-06-22T09:08:53Z no-defun-allowed: Righteo.
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2020-06-22T09:13:53Z shka_: phoe: cool
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2020-06-22T09:26:01Z beach: phoe: I am suggesting part 1 of a series of talks entitled "Creating a Common Lisp implementation"
2020-06-22T09:26:17Z phoe: beach: sounds good to me
2020-06-22T09:26:44Z beach: But if you have something else, please do that instead.
2020-06-22T09:27:04Z beach: It will be tough for me to prepare it all by Monday.
2020-06-22T09:27:15Z phoe: beach: we can delay the next meeting, no problem
2020-06-22T09:27:21Z beach: On the other hand, since it is "part 1", I can just stop when I have "enough".
2020-06-22T09:27:24Z phoe: I mean
2020-06-22T09:27:30Z beach: No, Monday is fine.
2020-06-22T09:27:36Z phoe: I can follow the philosophy of "no content, no problem" and just organize the next one whenever there's something to show
2020-06-22T09:28:00Z beach: I need the pressure to get it done, so let's aim for Monday.
2020-06-22T09:28:04Z phoe: okiedokie
2020-06-22T09:28:25Z phoe: but that means that I'll need to send the news out today and I'll need the abstract to do that
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2020-06-22T09:28:38Z beach: The abstract is written.  Hold on...
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2020-06-22T09:29:36Z beach: http://metamodular.com/SICL/creating-cl-abstract.text
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2020-06-22T09:29:46Z beach: Check for typos please.
2020-06-22T09:30:50Z phoe: no typos detected
2020-06-22T09:31:00Z beach: And is it acceptable to you?
2020-06-22T09:31:03Z phoe: how long do you think the presentation will be?
2020-06-22T09:31:13Z phoe: yep, very acceptable to me
2020-06-22T09:31:39Z beach: I guess 30 minutes.  If I prepare more material than that, I can just cut it off at 30.
2020-06-22T09:32:12Z beach: Does that sound good to you?
2020-06-22T09:32:37Z phoe: you're not really required to cut it at 30 minutes since it seems you're the only speaker for next week
2020-06-22T09:32:53Z beach: OK then.  I'll keep that in mind.
2020-06-22T09:33:35Z shka_: what kinds of topic are suitable?
2020-06-22T09:34:03Z phoe: shka_: lemme ask you a question
2020-06-22T09:34:12Z phoe: is it both Lisp-related and interesting to you?
2020-06-22T09:34:27Z phoe: if yes, it's suitable
2020-06-22T09:34:35Z shka_: ok
2020-06-22T09:35:03Z phoe: but I'll need an abstract of it today in order to be able to announce the speakers for the next meeting.
2020-06-22T09:35:13Z shka_: right
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2020-06-22T10:36:11Z v3ga: hey guys, sort of a basic question but is it safe to say applicative order evaluation is the same thing as tree accumulation? You're just going through evaluating each expression as far as can go then the remains are passed to the actual function?
2020-06-22T10:36:30Z v3ga: Reading SICP and just trying to put notes in my own words.
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2020-06-22T10:43:02Z shka_: v3ga: CL specifies order of evaluation
2020-06-22T10:43:10Z shka_: is that's what you are asking
2020-06-22T10:43:46Z v3ga: more so basic. I think I've got it right in my mind. Just double checking
2020-06-22T10:46:53Z v3ga: shka_: ahh that is good to know though. I see CL works from left to right. So the results for this problem I'm looking at ARE in fact different
2020-06-22T10:48:46Z shka_: glad you figured this out
2020-06-22T10:50:38Z v3ga: shka_: yup. Working through SICP but i'm going through slowly and seeing how a few languages differ, along with wrapping my head around new terms.
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2020-06-22T11:14:52Z beach: v3ga: Applicative evaluation order is the same as "eager" evaluation, which means that the arguments to a function are evaluated before the function is applied.
2020-06-22T11:15:55Z beach: v3ga: The opposite of that is "outermost" or "lazy" or "normal-order" evaluation, which means that arguments are not evaluated before the function is applied, and the evaluation is done when it is needed.
2020-06-22T11:16:54Z beach: v3ga: Applicative order is also known as call-by-value.
2020-06-22T11:17:20Z beach: However the term says nothing about the order of evaluation between the different arguments.
2020-06-22T11:17:50Z beach: Scheme and Common Lisp are both applicative order, but Scheme does not define the order between the arguments, whereas Common Lisp is always left-to-right.
2020-06-22T11:18:13Z beach: shka_: That's what you should have said. :)
2020-06-22T11:20:18Z v3ga: beach...ahh I see. Ok that's even more clear. Yeah, I sort of blended two questions. My initial question was answered  by exactly what you gave me. Then I noticed the difference between scheme and cl. Cool beans =P
2020-06-22T11:21:31Z v3ga: beach: thats a perfect explanation.
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2020-06-22T11:26:00Z shka_: beach: yeah, i didn't understood the question
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2020-06-22T11:27:17Z beach: v3ga: Great, thanks!
2020-06-22T11:28:12Z ralt: ... scheme doesn't define the order?
2020-06-22T11:28:17Z Xach: ralt: no
2020-06-22T11:28:26Z ralt: weird language
2020-06-22T11:28:52Z Xach: too pejorative. maybe you could classify it as ultimate freedom language.
2020-06-22T11:29:02Z Xach: (for the implementor)
2020-06-22T11:29:25Z ralt: I'm too pragmatic for that
2020-06-22T11:30:08Z shka_: ralt: scheme is a minimalist language
2020-06-22T11:30:39Z shka_: it wasn't designed for pragmatism but people seem to like enough :-)
2020-06-22T11:30:45Z v3ga: lol... John Carmack seems to like scheme. I'm just using it for SICP so I dont run into hiccups. I hear people run into issues with CL. though I would have preferred that route
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2020-06-22T11:30:57Z ralt: minimalism seems kind of orthogonal to unpredictability
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2020-06-22T11:32:05Z shka_: v3ga: scheme is fine for what it is but it makes impossible to write useful portable software
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2020-06-22T11:32:48Z shka_: but it is a fine base for embedded languages and more importantly for teaching
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2020-06-22T11:38:30Z jackdaniel: you'd have to define "useful portable software" first
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2020-06-22T11:38:47Z jackdaniel: I'm sure that they are plenty of useful programs written in scheme
2020-06-22T11:39:07Z jackdaniel: which are portable across different operating systems
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2020-06-22T11:40:10Z jackdaniel: but common lisp is a very cool language, so it is worth doing things in it ;)
2020-06-22T11:40:40Z jackdaniel: Xach: ping
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2020-06-22T11:42:37Z v3ga: jackdaniel: yes...it is. I was torn between clojure and CL. Answer. Use both! =P I really only see myself using clojure/clojurescript for web stuff but for software i've decided on Common Lisp. CL, Clojure, Go I think will be the main languages in my toolkit.
2020-06-22T11:43:45Z jackdaniel: I have plenty of fun using Common Lisp. Racket is also fun to play with with its ide. I didn't like Go despite fine cli tooling, and clojure was just annoying ;)
2020-06-22T11:44:24Z v3ga: clj is nice... Go I've just started with but I believe i'll like it.
2020-06-22T11:45:16Z jackdaniel: lukego tweeted recently a fun one: "CL is designed by geeks, Racket by school teachers, and Clojure by consultants
2020-06-22T11:45:19Z jackdaniel: "
2020-06-22T11:46:14Z Cymew waves a flag with the Rust logo on one side, CL on the other
2020-06-22T11:46:44Z jackdaniel: "... and rust by people who don't believe, that the compilation time matters" ;-)
2020-06-22T11:47:24Z shka_: that's harsh
2020-06-22T11:47:44Z no-defun-allowed: Cymew: what is this heathenry
2020-06-22T11:48:46Z jackdaniel: shka_: https://prev.rust-lang.org/en-US/faq.html#why-is-rustc-slow (and I'll stop at that, since it is offtopic, sorry :)
2020-06-22T11:49:52Z shka_: "Rust has a moderately-complex type system"
2020-06-22T11:50:02Z shka_: that was understatement
2020-06-22T11:54:06Z v3ga: lol
2020-06-22T11:54:26Z shka_: regardless, CL is indeed a very cool language
2020-06-22T11:55:20Z lukego: Got my pretty-printing looking right after randomly experimenting with modifiers to ~< and ~>. I'm not sure if that's a cause for celebration or not :-)
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2020-06-22T12:15:03Z Cymew: no-defun-allowed: It's a bit of heathenry indeed. I do find rust to be a much nicer language than the alternatives, if cl is not an option. It does compile a bit slow, but when it does it just works.
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2020-06-22T13:16:19Z Xach: jackdaniel: hi
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2020-06-22T13:17:03Z jackdaniel: hey o/
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2020-06-22T13:17:18Z jackdaniel: I've pinged you on query - it seems that planet.lisp.org doesn't pick posts on the turtleware blog
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2020-06-22T13:17:29Z Xach: hmm ok
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2020-06-22T13:19:07Z Xach: jackdaniel: the transition to https fouled it up, sorry. should be better now.
2020-06-22T13:19:47Z jackdaniel: thank you, that was quick!
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2020-06-22T15:19:06Z contrapunctus: o/
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2020-06-22T15:24:44Z beach: Hello contrapunctus.
2020-06-22T15:25:09Z Josh_2: afternoon
2020-06-22T15:25:24Z beach: Hey Josh_2.
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2020-06-22T15:26:40Z contrapunctus: Hey 🙂 I seem to remember a paper - maybe one dealing with CLOS - which had a table describing four different approaches to OOP, and languages which embody them.
2020-06-22T15:27:14Z contrapunctus: I wondered if it might be "CLOS: An Overview", but that doesn't seem to be it.
2020-06-22T15:27:19Z beach: Hmm, doesn't ring a bell.
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2020-06-22T15:30:40Z jackdaniel: I have an idea what you mean, but it is an English word which doesn't stick
2020-06-22T15:30:55Z jackdaniel: it sounds similar to "immensurability", but it is about things which are not comparable
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2020-06-22T15:31:01Z jackdaniel: (the title of the article)
2020-06-22T15:31:49Z jackdaniel: Incommensurability (!)
2020-06-22T15:32:55Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: http://dreamsongs.com/Files/Incommensurability.pdf ← ?
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2020-06-22T15:34:46Z jackdaniel: there was also a post on the usenet by Eric Naggum which mentions different approaches to clos: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3243735416407529@naggum.no.html (with some smalltalk references)
2020-06-22T15:35:43Z jackdaniel: otoh neither has a table you have mentioned so that's not it :( both are great reads
2020-06-22T15:35:57Z contrapunctus: Yeah... 🤔
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2020-06-22T15:36:58Z contrapunctus: It had a 'message based' and a 'function based' column, and a 'prototype based' and a 'class based' row.
2020-06-22T15:38:30Z contrapunctus: So Smalltalk was message/class, Self was message/prototype, I'm not sure if it put CLOS in function/class, and I'm not at all sure what goes into function/prototype.
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2020-06-22T15:40:13Z TMA: contrapunctus: with a great deal of eye squinting the last castegory might be filled with javascript
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2020-06-22T15:42:09Z jackdaniel: function based and class based sounds like common lisp
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2020-06-22T16:10:18Z contrapunctus: Aha, found it! "CLOS In Context: The Shape of the Design Space"
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2020-06-22T16:18:45Z beach: Did you just want to re-read the article, or did you have some other reasons for wanting the reference?
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2020-06-22T16:44:59Z contrapunctus: beach: someone on another channel wanted to learn about OOP, and someone suggested a C++ book. I said, OOP seems to vary a lot between languages, so maybe read about all these approaches.
2020-06-22T16:45:14Z beach: I see.
2020-06-22T16:45:30Z shka_: oh, don't learn just C++
2020-06-22T16:45:43Z beach: C++ does not seem like the best recommendation.
2020-06-22T16:45:55Z shka_: well, it is always better to know
2020-06-22T16:46:45Z shka_: but typical C++ code organization and architecture is by no means the best or the only way to program
2020-06-22T16:47:47Z edgar-rft: ah, there is only *one* way to program? :-)
2020-06-22T16:48:09Z shka_: and i blame C++ model for enterprise software retreat from OO into interface oriented lord
2020-06-22T16:48:13Z shka_: *land
2020-06-22T16:49:06Z edgar-rft praises the interface oriented lord
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2020-06-22T16:49:40Z shka_: edgar-rft: don't, it is a downgrade from OO
2020-06-22T16:49:49Z shka_: seriously
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2020-06-22T16:54:43Z pve: Could it be argued that the CLOS approach is superior to the Smalltalk approach? I'm making a smalltalk-in-lisp (for fun) so this interests me greatly. My current understanding is that there are trade-offs involved with both approaches.
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2020-06-22T16:55:21Z shka_: pve: technically it can be argued, but this is a complicated topic
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2020-06-22T16:56:17Z pve: shka_: I see, hmm
2020-06-22T16:56:17Z shka_: i mean, the one thing that lisp approach does really well is provide reach ways to combine code
2020-06-22T16:57:02Z shka_: and you can't analyze this aspect in abstract, without a concrete case studies
2020-06-22T16:57:07Z heisig: pve: The CLOS approach is to be programmable.  So the question is whether you want to compare Smalltalk with standard classes and standard generic functions, or with anything that CLOS can be programmed to do.
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2020-06-22T16:58:22Z pve: heisig: good point, let's go with standard classes and standard generic functions
2020-06-22T16:58:36Z edgar-rft: pve: Tom Almy maintains XLISP-PLUS, it's a lisp-2 with a smalltalkish object system
2020-06-22T16:59:18Z edgar-rft: XLISP-PLUS homepage -> https://almy.us/xlisp.html
2020-06-22T16:59:57Z pve: edgar-rft: thanks, looks interesting
2020-06-22T17:00:08Z pve: hadn't heard of that one
2020-06-22T17:00:29Z shka_: *rich
2020-06-22T17:00:41Z shka_: jesus christ, my dyslexia is getting worse
2020-06-22T17:01:00Z edgar-rft: it's not jesus fault :-)
2020-06-22T17:01:15Z shka_: you can't be sure
2020-06-22T17:01:53Z shka_: anyway, I think that the problem with such comparisons is that there is no scientific methods to do it
2020-06-22T17:02:27Z edgar-rft: shka_: you only need to *believe* that it's all jesus' fault
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2020-06-22T17:03:16Z shka_: and no only that, if you would want to construct some sort of metrics to compare different approaches, you would need to balance various aspects, some of which are psychological
2020-06-22T17:03:20Z shka_: and good luck with that
2020-06-22T17:03:53Z shka_: that's why programming is a craft and not engineering
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2020-06-22T17:05:35Z shka_: psychology of programming should be a legit science discipline
2020-06-22T17:05:39Z shka_: if it is not already
2020-06-22T17:10:12Z pve: I mean I want to say that that Smalltalk model is technically worse than CLOS, but easier to understand. But I don't even know if that's entirely true.
2020-06-22T17:13:19Z heisig: To me it also seems that Smalltalk is much more simplistic - with all the benefits and drawbacks that this entails.
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2020-06-22T17:26:01Z shka_: pve: problem is that analyzing this detached from a practical implications is pointless
2020-06-22T17:27:27Z shka_: and therefore i would not want to argue about that
2020-06-22T17:27:27Z pve: shka_: yeah, I guess you're right
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2020-06-22T17:30:56Z contrapunctus: The table is different from how I remembered it, though.
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2020-06-22T18:07:05Z pve: I don't know if anyone is interested, but here's what I got so far: https://imgur.com/a/67oxPHk (I took screenshots because the syntax wouldn't highlight properly on the paste service)
2020-06-22T18:07:42Z Josh_2: I don't know what is going on, but I can't say I like the font :P
2020-06-22T18:08:12Z pve: the first picture shows the code for a "source file", the second shows how it gets hooked up to asdf
2020-06-22T18:08:19Z pve: Josh_2: sorry :)
2020-06-22T18:08:27Z pve: I can't font
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2020-06-22T18:10:53Z Josh_2: so is this a dsl?
2020-06-22T18:11:30Z pve: well yes, except not really "domain specific"
2020-06-22T18:11:38Z pve: more "general purpose"
2020-06-22T18:12:36Z pve: hmm maybe if the domain is "smalltalk-like message passing"
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2020-06-22T23:48:07Z Josh_2: hmm is there a portable way to work with file descriptors?
2020-06-22T23:51:49Z p_l: you can use something like osicat
2020-06-22T23:52:22Z Josh_2: hmm don't think thats what I need
2020-06-22T23:52:45Z Josh_2: Hunchentoot is returning a sb-sys:fd-stream when I upload an mp4
2020-06-22T23:53:01Z Josh_2: but an image is not
2020-06-22T23:53:29Z Josh_2: but I need a universal way to convert this to an array
2020-06-22T23:54:01Z Josh_2: don't want to use sb-sys:fd-stream as my type directly if there is a wrapper library that makes this portable
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2020-06-23T00:09:26Z p_l: fd-stream is a subtype of standard file stream, iirc
2020-06-23T00:09:40Z Josh_2: yep I figured that out
2020-06-23T00:09:51Z Josh_2: thanks anyway :)
2020-06-23T00:13:52Z Josh_2: seems to be working :)
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2020-06-23T02:58:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-23T06:34:22Z phoe: morning
2020-06-23T06:34:38Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2020-06-23T08:20:20Z flip214: Is there something like SLOCCOUNT for Lisp that counts number of forms? Number of lines isn't that helpful for code like (IF (condition) \n T \n NIL)
2020-06-23T08:22:49Z phoe: it wouldn't really count lines of code I guess so "sloc" would be a misnomer, but I think it could work; read all files of a system and count the total number of times read was successful (until EOF was hit)
2020-06-23T08:23:04Z phoe: don't know about any such utility that would be integrated into ASDF
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2020-06-23T08:23:52Z phoe: I guess you could pass a custom :around-compile function to a system to achieve that, but that requires modifying the ASDF system file
2020-06-23T08:24:24Z phoe: there is also no read-hook, that would be easy to implement with one
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2020-06-23T08:36:38Z flip214: phoe: that would only count the top-most forms, I'm looking for some "better" estimation of size, like total count of forms including subforms
2020-06-23T08:37:27Z flip214: sloccount was just an example that already exists; I might be looking for a form-count or so
2020-06-23T08:37:44Z flip214: but with possible read-tables it's not as easy as it sounds
2020-06-23T08:38:34Z flip214: perhaps I can just walk each file, reading and evaluating forms, and counting the number of forms?!
2020-06-23T08:39:11Z lonjil: Maybe you could do this with Eclector
2020-06-23T08:40:49Z estest: flip214: maybe you could dig into SBCL's coverage report generator. Its output contains a count of expressions for each file in the report.
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2020-06-23T08:42:47Z phoe: flip214: oh, *including* subforms!
2020-06-23T08:43:07Z phoe: before or after macroexpansion? if before, then eclector would be the way to go
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2020-06-23T08:44:20Z pve: could *macroexpand-hook* help?
2020-06-23T08:44:34Z phoe: uh oh
2020-06-23T08:44:48Z pve: not super familiar with how it works though..
2020-06-23T08:44:50Z phoe: it would give rough estimates, I guess, but then you'd also need to evaluate the forms
2020-06-23T08:44:50Z flip214: phoe: should be before macroexpansion
2020-06-23T08:44:53Z phoe: not just read them
2020-06-23T08:45:21Z pve: hmm true
2020-06-23T08:45:53Z flip214: but an ASDF :around-compile only gets a thunk as argument and no filename, right?
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2020-06-23T08:46:01Z phoe: flip214: correct
2020-06-23T08:46:18Z phoe: you'd need to be able to bind some special variables in there or something, but I don't know of any.
2020-06-23T08:46:36Z phoe: I guess I shall once again suggest eclector
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2020-06-23T08:54:41Z flip214: phoe: that still needs ASDF dependencies resolving and similar stuff... reading sources isn't a problem, my assumption is working code anyway
2020-06-23T08:56:13Z phoe: flip214: I guess that you need to load all dependencies of a system and then read the source files
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2020-06-23T09:07:05Z beach: flip214: For counting forms, you could probably convince Eclector to do that.
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2020-06-23T09:10:50Z flip214: phoe: that's what I'm doing now.
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2020-06-23T09:18:21Z flip214: hmmm, so I get an answer... how would I verify that most easily?
2020-06-23T09:20:15Z scymtym: flip214: compare your answer to https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/count-forms.lisp . but seriously, it depends on what you exactly you want to count
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2020-06-23T09:22:12Z flip214: I added a :file-regex argument and counted a small file manually, thanks all the same!
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2020-06-23T09:26:16Z beach: scymtym: For unique EOF values I typically just do (list nil).
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2020-06-23T09:26:30Z beach: scymtym: Does the GENSYM have any advantages?
2020-06-23T09:27:00Z flip214: from 2573 to 2568 forms, so my rewrite actually might have made things easier ;)
2020-06-23T09:27:15Z scymtym: beach: i haven't really thought about it much. i guess it has no runtime overhead
2020-06-23T09:28:03Z flip214: well, TBH, a NIL on the top level isn't really important (source code complexity-wise)
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2020-06-23T09:28:57Z seok: how do you decide when to use alists, plists, or hashes?
2020-06-23T09:30:00Z phoe: seok: I simply use hashes :D
2020-06-23T09:30:07Z seok: yeah me too
2020-06-23T09:30:15Z phoe: unless I need to pass arguments to functions, then plists come in handy
2020-06-23T09:30:26Z seok: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/75h7k4/hash_tables_vs_alistsplists_why_is_the_latter_so/ some feel plists/alists are more "lispy"
2020-06-23T09:31:07Z beach: seok: You can safely ignore such feelings.
2020-06-23T09:31:20Z seok: ok
2020-06-23T09:31:23Z phoe: IMO the biggest issue that makes them "unlispy" is a lack of standardized means of printing hash tables readably
2020-06-23T09:31:35Z phoe: like, no #H(:a 1 :b 2 :c 3) or something like that.
2020-06-23T09:31:44Z flip214: seok: alists and plists can be "locally extended" much more easily in recursive calls
2020-06-23T09:31:54Z phoe: other than that, "lispy" is a very very subjective thing, so what beach said
2020-06-23T09:31:56Z seok: like, other languages have just a single key/value pair object
2020-06-23T09:32:00Z seok: lisp has 3
2020-06-23T09:32:34Z phoe: "has"
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2020-06-23T09:32:38Z seok: it probably contributes to the learning curve of CL for new lispers
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2020-06-23T09:32:43Z flip214: and alists vs. plists - the (key . value) cons of alists can be very efficiently be shared among multiple alists
2020-06-23T09:33:02Z phoe: alists and plists are conventions rather than objects of their own
2020-06-23T09:33:10Z seok: that is true
2020-06-23T09:33:11Z seok: phoe
2020-06-23T09:33:11Z flip214: seok: well, there are different time/cpu tradeoffs
2020-06-23T09:33:11Z phoe: but, yeah, three conventions
2020-06-23T09:34:03Z seok: the access difficulty increases as number of keys increase for alists/plists right?
2020-06-23T09:34:07Z seok: like normal lists
2020-06-23T09:34:19Z phoe: difficulty? you mean time complexity?
2020-06-23T09:34:21Z seok: yeah
2020-06-23T09:34:30Z phoe: yes, it's linear
2020-06-23T09:34:35Z phoe: for hashtables it's amortized constant
2020-06-23T09:34:48Z seok: when are alists/plists more efficient than hashes?
2020-06-23T09:34:54Z seok: for small objects with few keys?
2020-06-23T09:35:02Z phoe: for few keys
2020-06-23T09:35:09Z phoe: which are, preferably, EQ-comparable
2020-06-23T09:35:16Z phoe: so e.g. symbols
2020-06-23T09:36:58Z seok: well, I'm setting up a NoSQL db
2020-06-23T09:37:08Z phoe: you mean in Lisp?
2020-06-23T09:37:09Z seok: I don't think it would be wise to use symbol keys
2020-06-23T09:37:15Z seok: no, just api
2020-06-23T09:37:19Z seok: using arangodb
2020-06-23T09:37:25Z phoe: oh, so Lisp just accesses it
2020-06-23T09:37:31Z seok: yeah
2020-06-23T09:37:38Z phoe: if it's a document store, then what are your keys going to be?
2020-06-23T09:37:53Z seok: there is a library https://github.com/gschjetne/cl-arango but it's 5 years old
2020-06-23T09:38:08Z seok: and ArangoDB has gotten many updates in 5 years.. so I don't trust it
2020-06-23T09:38:40Z seok: well, arangodb operates like other NoSQL dbs
2020-06-23T09:39:04Z seok: I think it's sensible to use strings as keys
2020-06-23T09:39:28Z seok: I suspect there would be just as much bottleneck in coercing strings to symbols and back
2020-06-23T09:39:31Z phoe: seok: any reasons for why you don't grab that project, fork it, and use it as a basis?
2020-06-23T09:39:59Z phoe: coercing symbols to strings is cheap, the other way around it's more expensive
2020-06-23T09:40:31Z phoe: but it won't really matter much if you use strings I guess, all you'll be doing is reading these strings in and passing them to the DB unchanged
2020-06-23T09:40:36Z seok: yeah, so going back and forth lisp <-> arangodb I would have to call both ways
2020-06-23T09:40:37Z seok: yes
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2020-06-23T09:41:01Z seok: I'm not familiar with this library
2020-06-23T09:41:06Z seok: I just found it, haven't read it
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2020-06-23T09:41:26Z phoe: I'd advise you to do that; maybe you can just scavenge things from it
2020-06-23T09:41:45Z seok: eh, I've written accessors to arangodb api before
2020-06-23T09:41:51Z seok: their api is pretty clean
2020-06-23T09:42:17Z seok: I feel it would be a bigger job to interpret this library
2020-06-23T09:42:38Z seok: Does anyone use arangodb btw?
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2020-06-23T10:54:00Z flip214: SBCLs docstring for ADJUST-ARRAY says "Adjusts ARRAY's dimensions...", but it doesn't seem to _modify_ the given array, only return another one. Am I reading the docstring wrong?
2020-06-23T10:54:34Z jackdaniel: is the array "expressly adjustable"?
2020-06-23T10:55:16Z jackdaniel: (adjustable-array-p array)
2020-06-23T10:55:18Z flip214: cltl2 says "this may be achieved either by modifying the array or by creating a new array", so I guess the docstring could be anhanced
2020-06-23T10:55:42Z flip214: jackdaniel: it's allocated at runtime via (make-array 20 ...), but doesn't have a fill-pointer or so.
2020-06-23T10:55:51Z jackdaniel: add :adjustable t
2020-06-23T10:56:31Z jackdaniel: there is an issue in the standard touching this subject: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss005_w.htm
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2020-06-23T10:58:10Z flip214: jackdaniel: yeah, thanks. so perhaps the docstring should be modified to avoid such confusion.
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2020-06-23T11:46:06Z phoe: flip214: perhaps it's worth to notify #sbcl
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2020-06-23T11:55:26Z flip214: phoe: yeah, sent a patch
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2020-06-23T12:33:17Z phoe: jackdaniel: did your mailbox implementation end up anywhere?
2020-06-23T12:33:22Z phoe: I mean https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/pull/69
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2020-06-23T12:33:42Z phoe: and by "end up anywhere" I mean "did it become available as (a part of) any other ASDF-loadable system
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2020-06-23T12:36:43Z flip214: in case anyone's interested, https://gist.github.com/phmarek/119b2e8051109b308c99842134e4f9c8 to count forms
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2020-06-23T12:40:04Z ralt: phoe: I think lparallel.queue is pretty much that
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2020-06-23T12:48:05Z phoe: flip214: send it some sorta blog :D
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2020-06-23T12:49:58Z flip214: phoe: yeah, I'd like to have the time for that... I guess I'm doing quite interesting stuff sometimes, but there's so little time
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2020-06-23T12:55:02Z phoe: flip214: I basically have a blog where I sometimes stuff code snippets in an almost-raw form, that's all
2020-06-23T12:55:09Z phoe: sometimes more polished articles, but only when I have the time
2020-06-23T12:55:23Z phoe: sometimes it's just half-raw and half baked :D
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2020-06-23T13:00:01Z jackdaniel: phoe: it will, in the terminal control library
2020-06-23T13:00:42Z jackdaniel: (charming)
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2020-06-23T13:03:43Z flip214: phoe: well, some explanation, graphs, or pictures is needed quite often
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2020-06-23T13:15:54Z phoe: jackdaniel: thanks
2020-06-23T13:16:33Z phoe: flip214: agreed; however in this case it's "CLOC, except it's lisp forms instead of lines"
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2020-06-23T13:17:26Z flip214: SFOC
2020-06-23T13:18:49Z Xach: jackdaniel: what's up with the weird use of ldb in your most recent post?
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2020-06-23T13:19:45Z Xach: I am almost certain there are implementations that do not use conses as bytespecs.
2020-06-23T13:19:47Z phoe: oh, you mean (ldb '(8 . 24) color) ?
2020-06-23T13:19:52Z Xach: aye
2020-06-23T13:19:53Z phoe: CCL doesn't use bytespaces
2020-06-23T13:20:02Z phoe: uh
2020-06-23T13:20:04Z phoe: conses as bytespecs I mean
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2020-06-23T13:20:22Z Xach: now i am even more almost certain
2020-06-23T13:20:55Z Xach: there may be context in previous posts that i missed, or in that post, even
2020-06-23T13:21:01Z phoe: (byte 2 4) ;=> 48
2020-06-23T13:21:11Z Xach: if so, sorry for the noise - but it does look weird to me in that specific case
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2020-06-23T13:51:25Z TMA: (byte 2 4) ;=> #S(BYTE :SIZE 2 :POSITION 4) ;clisp
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2020-06-23T14:01:36Z jackdaniel: Xach: human error, I'll correct it later today
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2020-06-23T14:05:37Z jackdaniel: thanks for bringing this up
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2020-06-23T15:02:02Z pve: Is there a recommended documentation generation library?
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2020-06-23T15:04:13Z beach: Documentation can't be generated.  It has to be written.
2020-06-23T15:05:47Z pve: fair enough, I meant something that can take my docstrings and turn them into, say, a html document
2020-06-23T15:06:14Z beach: That makes for some really awful documentation indeed.
2020-06-23T15:06:30Z beach: Because there is no way to put general information, concepts, etc.
2020-06-23T15:09:29Z beach: Plus, since space is kind of limited in docstrings, you get awful documentation for individual functions.  Take SBCL CAR for instance: "Return the 1st object in a list."
2020-06-23T15:09:39Z beach: It is incomplete and inaccurate.
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2020-06-23T15:16:01Z jackdaniel: Xach: corrected, thanks again
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2020-06-23T15:18:59Z phoe: pve: try Staple
2020-06-23T15:19:30Z pve: beach: I mean, you're not wrong, but I still think docstrings are pretty neat
2020-06-23T15:19:39Z pve: phoe: thanks, will have a look
2020-06-23T15:22:36Z edgar-rft: pve: here is a rather long list of CL doc-generators -> https://www.cliki.net/Documentation%20tool
2020-06-23T15:23:03Z edgar-rft: the only one I ever have worked with is Albert and it did its job pretty well
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2020-06-23T15:24:25Z edgar-rft: but a real manual also needs to explain the overall idea and why it was implemented the way it is, both cannot be extracted from the docstrings
2020-06-23T15:26:49Z pve: edgar-rft: thanks, and yes, a high-level document is definitely required
2020-06-23T15:27:17Z jackdaniel: clearly it is not required given that most new project doesn't have documentation, it is a nice touch though :)
2020-06-23T15:27:59Z jackdaniel: sjl wrote an essay about writing documentation I've liked very much (https://stevelosh.com/blog/2013/09/teach-dont-tell/)
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2020-06-23T15:30:06Z pve: jackdaniel: that looks useful, will read
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2020-06-23T15:31:30Z pve: I will admit, I'm guilty of all the sins mentioned there
2020-06-23T15:35:39Z beach: jackdaniel: Thanks.  Never read that one.  A quick glance tells me he knows what he is talking about.
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2020-06-23T15:46:21Z Josh_2: afternoon
2020-06-23T15:46:34Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
2020-06-23T15:46:34Z jackdaniel: sure
2020-06-23T15:46:37Z jackdaniel: hey
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2020-06-23T15:49:11Z phoe: hey!
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2020-06-23T15:53:06Z contrapunctus: edgar-rft: https://documentation.divio.com/
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2020-06-23T16:02:56Z Xach: sjl stands for Steve's (not) Joking (when it comes to) Lisp
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2020-06-23T16:06:30Z contrapunctus: lol
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2020-06-23T18:17:12Z _death: seems github just became more hostile to javascriptless browsers..
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2020-06-23T18:42:30Z phoe: yes
2020-06-23T18:43:41Z _death: I will need to consider whether to move stuff elsewhere.. but just like that they made my programming life more difficult :/
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2020-06-23T19:11:55Z phoe: _death: there's an Online Lisp Meeting #4 to sweeten your pain a little bit
2020-06-23T19:11:59Z phoe: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/hekv1y/online_lisp_meeting_4/
2020-06-23T19:12:30Z _death: awesome :).. hopefully will be awake when it happens
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2020-06-23T19:47:48Z Jonsky: I keep getting "odd number of &key arguents" when I called (defun test-fun (&rest args &key k) (list args k)) with (test-fun "h" "i" "j" :k "k")
2020-06-23T19:48:36Z Jonsky: Anything I did wrong?
2020-06-23T19:48:46Z Inline: &rest expects a list
2020-06-23T19:48:57Z Inline: ?
2020-06-23T19:48:58Z Bike: if you have &key, the entire &rest list must be a keyword argument list
2020-06-23T19:49:18Z Bike: you can't have some random elements and then keywords, which is what you seem to be going for
2020-06-23T19:49:31Z Jonsky: argh, yes
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2020-06-23T19:50:56Z Jonsky: Is there anyway I can have an argument list thats accept any number of inputs and then a keyword argument?
2020-06-23T19:51:07Z phoe: Jonsky: yes, &rest
2020-06-23T19:51:16Z phoe: parse the arglist manually afterwards
2020-06-23T19:51:19Z Krystof: any even number of inputs and then a keyword argument, sort of
2020-06-23T19:52:02Z Krystof: (defun test-fun (&rest args &aux (k (getf args :k))) ...)
2020-06-23T19:52:21Z Jonsky: wow.
2020-06-23T19:52:44Z Krystof: (this is not a good idea)
2020-06-23T19:52:47Z Bike: the reason for this restriction is that keywords are just values rather than syntax, so there would be no clear way to distinguish where the keys start
2020-06-23T19:52:59Z Jonsky: I was puzzled because I see the argument list of ~reduce~ is kinda like that
2020-06-23T19:53:31Z Krystof: the argument list of reduce has exactly two arguments, then keyword arguments
2020-06-23T19:53:55Z Jonsky: (FUNCTION SEQUENCE &REST ARGS &KEY (KEY NIL) FROM-END
2020-06-23T19:53:56Z Jonsky:                 (START 0) (END NIL) (INITIAL-VALUE NIL IVP))
2020-06-23T19:54:16Z Bike: having _required_ arguments before the keywords is fine
2020-06-23T19:54:17Z Jonsky: See? There's &REST ARGS followed by &KEY
2020-06-23T19:54:26Z Bike: yes, but the entire &rest list is keywords
2020-06-23T19:54:26Z Krystof: right, exactly two arguments, function and sequence
2020-06-23T19:54:40Z Bike: try ((lambda (&rest r &key k) (values r k)) :k 7)
2020-06-23T19:54:48Z Krystof: and then keyword arguments, which are also (for someone's convenience) all kept in a &rest list
2020-06-23T19:55:40Z Inline: how about passing nil in odd positions ?
2020-06-23T19:57:02Z Krystof: clhs 3.4.1.4
2020-06-23T19:57:02Z specbot: Specifiers for keyword parameters: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dad.htm
2020-06-23T19:57:18Z Jonsky: Phew, I give up. Just make every arg compulsory
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2020-06-23T19:57:29Z Krystof: " If &key is specified, there must remain an even number of arguments"
2020-06-23T19:57:46Z Inline: (test-fun "h" "i" "j" nil :k "k")
2020-06-23T19:57:51Z Inline: hmm
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2020-06-23T19:59:16Z Jonsky: Unknown &KEY argument: "h"
2020-06-23T19:59:47Z Jonsky: Krystof: thx for the link
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2020-06-23T20:01:49Z shka_: hello all
2020-06-23T20:02:07Z Jonsky: hi
2020-06-23T20:02:16Z Inline: yah
2020-06-23T20:02:22Z shka_: i finally added causal-forest to the statistical-learning, here is an example https://github.com/sirherrbatka/statistical-learning/blob/master/examples/promotions.lisp
2020-06-23T20:02:28Z Inline: so use only &rest
2020-06-23T20:02:56Z shka_: good night all!
2020-06-23T20:03:00Z Jonsky: seems it's my only choice
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2020-06-23T20:37:26Z fe[nl]ix: luis: https://twitter.com/mycoliza/status/1275305517066227712
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2020-06-24T02:47:44Z Theseus: G'day, I wrote a second hand bookstore.
2020-06-24T02:48:40Z Theseus: there's a couple of things I'd like to know about?
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2020-06-24T02:50:05Z Theseus: Is it possible to develop graphics in html for a BITCOIN QR code? (via Lisp)
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2020-06-24T02:53:26Z Theseus: And a search, of a huge amount of text, titles authors illustrators publishers...
2020-06-24T02:53:39Z Theseus: for thousands of books
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2020-06-24T03:21:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-06-24T03:22:38Z beach: Theseus: There are some HTML libraries around, but I don't use HTML so I don't know how good they are.
2020-06-24T03:22:57Z beach: Theseus: "Thousands of books" is not "huge" these days.  Should work fine.
2020-06-24T03:23:36Z slyrus: evening!
2020-06-24T03:23:57Z slyrus: Is there still a lispweb channel (or similar) for discussing lispy web frameworks/libaries/etc...?
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2020-06-24T03:37:04Z White_Flame: is there some reason why SLIME fails to show function parameters in the minibuffer?
2020-06-24T03:37:36Z White_Flame: eg (defun foo (a b) ...) sometimes when the cursor is inside (foo |) it shows "(foo a b)" bolding where you are, sometimes it's just "(foo)"
2020-06-24T03:37:54Z White_Flame: right now, it's not showing params, and that's really annoying
2020-06-24T03:38:22Z White_Flame: M-. still works to bring it to the definition, so it's not being redefined to some non-param version
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2020-06-24T03:50:31Z Theseus: slyrus! Can't help, but I'd like to know that too
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2020-06-24T05:14:51Z paule32: hello, and good morning
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2020-06-24T05:15:13Z paule32: i have a little script:  http://dpaste.com/1SA0K14
2020-06-24T05:15:39Z paule32: can i make a defun function in the form of the defvar's ?
2020-06-24T05:16:40Z paule32: like (add-wire [+port] powersupply [-mport] wire-9)
2020-06-24T05:17:34Z paule32: where +-port are the + > left side of wire  and - < right side of wire
2020-06-24T05:18:03Z paule32: in form of: (defun add-wire (component m p))
2020-06-24T05:19:08Z paule32: (add-wire wire-1 power+ wire-2-)
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2020-06-24T05:24:01Z paule32: so, breakfeast, cofe time
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2020-06-24T05:41:40Z paule32: hello edgar-rft
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2020-06-24T06:15:50Z shka_: good morning
2020-06-24T06:16:14Z paule32: hi
2020-06-24T06:17:15Z flip214: paule32: I don't understand your requirements. (defun add-wire (&rest args) ...) if you know how to parse +port, -mport etc. from the args list
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2020-06-24T06:18:01Z paule32: hello flip214
2020-06-24T06:18:24Z paule32: the idea is, to simplyfied/reduce write work
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2020-06-24T06:20:52Z paule32: e.g.:   (+ wire-1-pport  power-supply-mport)  ...  (+ wire-2-mport powersupply: pport)
2020-06-24T06:21:34Z paule32: e.g.:   (+ wire-1-pport  power-supply-mport)  ...  (+ wire-2-mport powersupply:-pport)
2020-06-24T06:22:26Z paule32: (+ wire-1-mport wire-2-pport)
2020-06-24T06:22:40Z paule32: ok, not sense, but a simple graph
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2020-06-24T06:30:20Z paule32: with "make-wire wire-1" i can declare a new wire 1
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2020-06-24T06:30:58Z paule32: is it possible to check condition "make-wire"
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2020-06-24T06:31:40Z paule32: "make-wire" => "wire"
2020-06-24T06:31:49Z paule32: ?
2020-06-24T06:35:18Z paule32: ah, ok ->  type-of
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2020-06-24T06:53:40Z paule32: so question - bug or no bug:
2020-06-24T06:53:41Z paule32: http://dpaste.com/22XYW79
2020-06-24T06:54:06Z paule32: i get only OK, so only the first "cond" is eval
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2020-06-24T06:58:43Z phoe: no bug
2020-06-24T06:59:03Z phoe: COND only goes into one branch, that's by design.
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2020-06-24T07:02:21Z paule32: so, this is ok:
2020-06-24T07:02:24Z paule32:     (cond ((eq (type-of c1) 'wire) (format t "OK~%")))
2020-06-24T07:02:24Z paule32:     (cond ((eq (type-of c2) 'wire) (format t "ok~%")))
2020-06-24T07:02:25Z paule32: ?
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2020-06-24T07:09:31Z phoe: that'll work, but I'd use multiple WHENs rather than multiple single-branch  CONDs
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2020-06-24T07:14:53Z loke`: paule32: You probably really want to use TYPEP instead
2020-06-24T07:15:28Z paule32: typep is a pointer to a type, not name
2020-06-24T07:15:59Z loke`: paule32: I mean, use (TYPEP c1 'wire) instead of the EQ dance.
2020-06-24T07:16:21Z loke`: That way subtypes are covered too. Only use the EQ thing if you explicitly want to exclude subtypes.
2020-06-24T07:16:23Z paule32: ok, thx, that nice
2020-06-24T07:17:57Z paule32: assume, i have &rest rest
2020-06-24T07:18:27Z paule32: (cond ((eq (typep rest) 'power-source)  (format t "power~%")))
2020-06-24T07:19:03Z phoe: (typep rest) won't compile
2020-06-24T07:19:05Z paule32: how can i determine rest type instead power-soirce ?
2020-06-24T07:19:17Z phoe: you mean the type of every element of that list?
2020-06-24T07:19:25Z loke`: REST is always going to be a list
2020-06-24T07:19:44Z loke`: What do you want to achieve here?
2020-06-24T07:20:08Z paule32: at the moment, i use type-of static
2020-06-24T07:20:15Z paule32: but rest is dynamic
2020-06-24T07:20:42Z paule32: so, i can't write the type explizit
2020-06-24T07:21:24Z paule32: maybe a design error on my side
2020-06-24T07:21:48Z paule32: because "add" should add 2 components (wire-1 + wire-2)
2020-06-24T07:22:17Z paule32: and when i produce a list (wire-1 power-1 -wire2)
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2020-06-24T07:23:01Z paule32: i could not determine, what to add at given position ?
2020-06-24T07:24:07Z phoe: I don't understand what you're trying to do
2020-06-24T07:24:17Z phoe: both low-level and high-level
2020-06-24T07:24:28Z phoe: or what static/dynamic means in your case
2020-06-24T07:24:34Z paule32: so, the graph could be:  (wire-1 power-1 wire-2 led-1 wire-1)
2020-06-24T07:25:20Z paule32: phoe: only implementing issue, no low/high 0/1, yet
2020-06-24T07:27:18Z phoe: paule32: this answer doesn't help me in the slightest
2020-06-24T07:28:10Z phoe: if you want to verify that every element of the list is of some type, you can use (when (every (lambda (thing) (typep thing 'sometype)) rest) ...)
2020-06-24T07:31:46Z paule32: ok
2020-06-24T07:31:52Z paule32: they can differ
2020-06-24T07:32:14Z phoe: what do you mean, they can differ
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2020-06-24T07:32:31Z paule32: so i could write  (add wire-1 (add power-1 wire-2))  ?
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2020-06-24T07:32:56Z phoe: I don't know what ADD does and what WIRE-1 or POWER-1 or WIRE-2 are so I don't know how to answer.
2020-06-24T07:33:03Z phoe: Does your project have any documentation?
2020-06-24T07:33:12Z paule32: add stands for "connecting" types
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2020-06-24T07:33:25Z paule32: no, just for fun
2020-06-24T07:33:36Z phoe: well then, I'm not competent enough to help
2020-06-24T07:33:58Z paule32: haha, to easy for you ?
2020-06-24T07:34:55Z paule32: well, i try to simulate a electric system, for kids
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2020-06-24T07:36:14Z flip214: paule32: take advantage of &rest arguments, and allow (add wire-1 power-1 wire-2)
2020-06-24T07:36:34Z paule32: na, stupid idea
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2020-06-24T07:38:09Z paule32: the set of "add's" buid a circle - a power/supply circle stream, at the moment on lowest layer
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2020-06-24T07:38:33Z paule32: i know, when i add + and - pols, the power supply breaks
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2020-06-24T07:39:00Z paule32: but this is the beginning of a rise ...
2020-06-24T07:40:55Z paule32: so, i could be better  ( add power (add wire-1 (add power wire-1))) ?
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2020-06-24T07:41:19Z paule32: or better
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2020-06-24T07:41:35Z paule32: so, i could be better  (add power-plus (add wire-1 (add power-minus wire-1))) ?
2020-06-24T07:42:11Z paule32: where the power supply has 2 ports - plus and minus
2020-06-24T07:42:32Z paule32: and the wire has 2 ports, too  lhs - rhs
2020-06-24T07:43:14Z paule32: and the function "add" should only a wrapper, that connects all this components together
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2020-06-24T08:14:03Z flip214: perhaps you shouldn't even mention wires at all, but say (connect power+ resistor1-1) (connect resistor1-2 led1+) (connect led1- power-) ?
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2020-06-24T08:18:16Z splittist: Or even (connect (power+ resistor1-L) (resistor1-R led1+) ... )
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2020-06-24T08:23:14Z paule32: (add wire-2
2020-06-24T08:23:14Z paule32: (add (add power-source-1 wire-1) power-source-1))
2020-06-24T08:23:21Z paule32: this is the simplest
2020-06-24T08:23:33Z paule32: open
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2020-06-24T08:23:58Z paule32: power 2x => 1x lhs, 1x rhs
2020-06-24T08:24:25Z paule32: wire 2x => 1x on power+,  1x on power-
2020-06-24T08:25:10Z paule32: now, a resistor is missing
2020-06-24T08:25:51Z paule32: the output is:
2020-06-24T08:25:55Z paule32: WIRE
2020-06-24T08:25:55Z paule32: POWER
2020-06-24T08:25:55Z paule32: POWER
2020-06-24T08:25:55Z paule32: WIRE
2020-06-24T08:26:11Z paule32: so, it comes closest to me
2020-06-24T08:27:05Z paule32: but, there is missing a gui/framework, that renders the connections
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2020-06-24T09:07:02Z paule32: so
2020-06-24T09:07:04Z paule32: http://dpaste.com/17RA4J6
2020-06-24T09:07:11Z paule32: i got it nearly
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2020-06-24T09:12:09Z paule32: middtime dinner ...
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2020-06-24T09:26:11Z jackdaniel:  is lispworks.com down?
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2020-06-24T09:26:38Z beach: I don't think so.
2020-06-24T09:26:46Z phoe: works for me
2020-06-24T09:26:46Z jackdaniel: hm, it must be something on my end then. thanks
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2020-06-24T09:35:02Z beach: jackdaniel: In my slides for the next online Lisp meeting, I mention ECL a few times.  When you have time, could you check that I am not saying too many false things? http://metamodular.com/SICL/creating-a-common-lisp-implementation-part-1.pdf
2020-06-24T09:35:16Z beach: No rush.
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2020-06-24T09:37:38Z jackdaniel: sure
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2020-06-24T09:37:49Z beach: Thanks!
2020-06-24T09:40:44Z flip214: splittist: that requires a macro
2020-06-24T09:40:44Z jackdaniel: what is a "cross evaluation"?
2020-06-24T09:40:57Z jackdaniel: beach: ^
2020-06-24T09:41:28Z beach: jackdaniel: I'll explain that in my talk.  It means you can't use a host Common Lisp implementation to evaluate things for you target.
2020-06-24T09:41:46Z jackdaniel: aha, thanks
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2020-06-24T09:47:34Z jackdaniel: beach: that sounds about right. I don't understand the part about "implicit dependencies between modules" though
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2020-06-24T09:48:20Z beach: I'll try to remember to make that clear in the talk.  It means that the modules have an order, and that order is usually nowhere documented.
2020-06-24T09:49:00Z beach: "When you write code in this module, remember that the following functions and macros are not yet defined:..."
2020-06-24T09:49:25Z beach: Maybe "implicit" is not the best term.
2020-06-24T09:49:31Z jackdaniel: in case of the c part of ecl, all resulting .o files are compiled to a single .a file (which constitues libeclmin.a
2020-06-24T09:50:00Z jackdaniel: (and all are declared in the header), so such traps are not very likely (and this module does not utilise common lisp macros of course)
2020-06-24T09:50:43Z jackdaniel: macros in .d files are basically a syntactic sugar which is preprocessed by a parser written in C (called dpp), without any runtime information except for the header files
2020-06-24T09:50:55Z beach: What I mean is that the INCF macro can not be defined using DEFMACRO because DEFMACRO has not been defined yet at that point.
2020-06-24T09:51:09Z jackdaniel: OK
2020-06-24T09:53:22Z jackdaniel: that seems a little misleading for me, because it is mentioned near the part about flaws of implementing things in C, while defmacro, incf and such are implemented in the already-available lisp subset (n.b incf is defined with defmacro, but I understand that was just an example)
2020-06-24T09:54:16Z jackdaniel: but I understand what you mean now, so I suppose adding a comment during a talk should suffice
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2020-06-24T09:58:21Z beach: Great!  Thanks for your help!
2020-06-24T09:58:44Z beach: And I don't call it a "flaw" but a direct consequence of the strategy chosen.
2020-06-24T10:00:25Z jackdaniel: right, my point is that how lisp macros are implemented is independent from the fact that the "low level lisp" is implemented in C. it could be implemented in fully-fledged Common Lisp. you may mention a consequence, that you *can't* really use Lisp macros in the code written in C used to bootstrap the rest
2020-06-24T10:01:15Z beach: That's not really the point.  I am not talking about the C code at all.
2020-06-24T10:01:29Z jackdaniel: uhm
2020-06-24T10:01:38Z beach: The point is that when you start from a subset of the language, you have an order between the Lisp modules.
2020-06-24T10:01:49Z beach: You just can't use DEFMACRO until it is defined.
2020-06-24T10:02:04Z jackdaniel: that's definetely true, yes
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2020-06-24T10:02:10Z beach: And to define it, you need do, dolist, dotimes, when, setf, etc.
2020-06-24T10:02:16Z beach: And those are macros.
2020-06-24T10:02:27Z beach: So they can't be defined using DEFMACRO.
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2020-06-24T10:03:07Z beach: And that is a consequence of the fact that you start with a "core" and build upon it.
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2020-06-24T10:04:29Z loke`: beach: You mean at some point you have to decide what the "core" is and build from it?
2020-06-24T10:04:42Z beach: That is yet another issue.
2020-06-24T10:04:58Z beach: But no matter how you choose it, there is going to be an order between the additional modules.
2020-06-24T10:05:09Z loke`: as in... you can build IF on top of COND, or vise versa. But you can't define them in terms of eachother.
2020-06-24T10:05:40Z beach: A better example would be LOOP.  You might need LOOP to traverse the clauses, but you can't.
2020-06-24T10:06:38Z beach: I guess it is good that I am doing this series of presentations, because it seems it contains interesting information to many people. :)
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2020-06-24T10:07:10Z beach feels that questions such as "but how could you possibly avoid that" are in the air.
2020-06-24T10:07:13Z jackdaniel: loke`: in principle you can implement both in the underlying language
2020-06-24T10:07:25Z loke`: jackdaniel: Yes, of course.
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2020-06-24T10:08:43Z loke`: What about macros that are expanded by an existing Lisp? (like how SBCL builds)
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2020-06-24T10:09:00Z beach: What about them?
2020-06-24T10:09:02Z jackdaniel: same thing with defmacro, it doesn't have to be implemented with i.e cl:dolist or cl:loop, it may be something like system:while etc
2020-06-24T10:09:05Z beach: That's the subject of part 2.
2020-06-24T10:09:25Z loke`: OK, I should read it/listen to it before asking questions :-)
2020-06-24T10:09:36Z phoe: I guess defmacro can also be implemented outside Lisp and be a part of the core
2020-06-24T10:09:37Z jackdaniel: or (ffi:inline "boom(#1)") ;-)
2020-06-24T10:09:53Z beach: loke`: Part 2 won't be until at least 3 weeks from now, or 2.8.
2020-06-24T10:10:02Z loke`: That's fine. I can wait :-)
2020-06-24T10:10:25Z beach: phoe: Yes, and good luck with that.
2020-06-24T10:10:56Z beach: phoe: The lambda-list parser for the macro lambda list is non-trivial.
2020-06-24T10:11:20Z loke`: Easier in languages where the macro language is different from the actual language.
2020-06-24T10:11:23Z beach: phoe: Besides, on one of the first slides, I mention that the goal is to do as much as possible in Common Lisp.
2020-06-24T10:11:41Z loke`: I mean, I guess that's the entire reason why most languages have a different macro language.
2020-06-24T10:11:58Z jackdaniel: phoe: check out the function sys::destructure in src/lsp/defmacro.lsp ;)
2020-06-24T10:12:27Z jackdaniel: saying thaat writing it in C would be unpleasent would be understatement
2020-06-24T10:12:49Z phoe: :D
2020-06-24T10:13:14Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-06-24T10:13:23Z beach: Anyway, this discussion is quite helpful, because, again, it shows the need for my series of presentations.
2020-06-24T10:13:52Z beach: I had not imagined this level of interest from seasoned Lispers.
2020-06-24T10:14:27Z jackdaniel: phoe: but, if you look at the compiler.d, you'll find a function si_process_lambda_list (which is used by said destructure)
2020-06-24T10:14:39Z jackdaniel: it illustrates how ugly the codde can be
2020-06-24T10:16:57Z paule32: phoe: have you look to:  http://dpaste.com/17RA4J6  ?
2020-06-24T10:17:36Z phoe: paule32: what's the problem with that code?
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2020-06-24T10:18:08Z paule32: no problem, yet, it show's what i mean, with "add"
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2020-06-24T10:18:22Z paule32: see console output
2020-06-24T10:19:46Z paule32: the output is ugly, but i had nothing to visulize the "add" function
2020-06-24T10:20:32Z phoe: OK, I can understand that code
2020-06-24T10:20:44Z phoe: it can be simplified a real lot, but I can understand it
2020-06-24T10:21:39Z paule32: so, give it a easy to use graphically lib, which can be used
2020-06-24T10:21:49Z phoe: I use Qtools for GUI stuff
2020-06-24T10:22:11Z paule32: is that in quicklisp ?
2020-06-24T10:24:21Z paule32: i see a problem with saving the data in lisp, to formed it with QTools
2020-06-24T10:24:29Z phoe: yes, it's in quicklisp
2020-06-24T10:24:32Z phoe: what's that problem?
2020-06-24T10:24:53Z paule32: the structure of the graph
2020-06-24T10:25:16Z phoe: there's no structure in your example so far, it's just a list of six elements
2020-06-24T10:25:57Z paule32: but it has a logik
2020-06-24T10:26:09Z paule32: logic
2020-06-24T10:26:49Z paule32: i can not gurantee if QTool does the same like lisp ?
2020-06-24T10:27:06Z loke`: paule32: qtools is a Lisp framework
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2020-06-24T10:27:21Z paule32: ok
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2020-06-24T10:32:44Z phoe: qtools is a framework based on Qt
2020-06-24T10:32:57Z phoe: as long as you tell it how you'd like to display your stuff, it will display it
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2020-06-24T10:37:39Z jackdaniel: (display-it-aesthetically)
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2020-06-24T10:41:21Z phoe: (print thing :pretty :very)
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2020-06-24T11:18:10Z paule32: this version is a little bit better:
2020-06-24T11:18:12Z paule32: http://dpaste.com/0DF6810
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2020-06-24T11:18:49Z phoe: why does your ADD require two arguments?
2020-06-24T11:18:54Z paule32: please don't ask me, why 2x power ++
2020-06-24T11:18:55Z phoe: it always returns NIL
2020-06-24T11:19:13Z paule32: plus, and minus
2020-06-24T11:19:15Z phoe: so the second argument to each ADD call is almost always NIL
2020-06-24T11:19:41Z paule32: no
2020-06-24T11:19:46Z phoe: yes
2020-06-24T11:19:50Z paule32: i only give text out
2020-06-24T11:20:05Z phoe: I mean that C2 is almost always NIL
2020-06-24T11:20:11Z phoe: only in (add power-source-1 wire-1) the second argument is non-NIL
2020-06-24T11:21:00Z paule32: the first agument is plus pol.
2020-06-24T11:21:09Z paule32: the second argument is minus pol.
2020-06-24T11:22:15Z phoe: your second argument is almost always NIL
2020-06-24T11:22:21Z phoe: because ADD returns NIL
2020-06-24T11:22:42Z paule32: here the original:  http://dpaste.com/0HP3K3T
2020-06-24T11:23:06Z phoe: why do you have nested calls to ADD?
2020-06-24T11:23:24Z phoe: what is ADD supposed to return?
2020-06-24T11:23:37Z phoe: this is seriously #clschool material
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2020-06-24T11:24:15Z paule32: the "add" connects wire-2, wire-1 power_1 power_2
2020-06-24T11:24:37Z phoe: all it does is printing lines on the screen
2020-06-24T11:24:50Z paule32: it does not matter, that power supply is const
2020-06-24T11:25:08Z paule32: yes, i did say it
2020-06-24T11:25:43Z paule32: step 2 will be, to collect the items with properties  :mport :pport
2020-06-24T11:27:02Z phoe: okay, I'm more confused than I was before
2020-06-24T11:27:07Z phoe: what's the actual problem?
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2020-06-24T11:28:21Z paule32: calculate the voltage that hangs on :mport, and :pport
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2020-06-24T11:30:47Z paule32: let the power-source/supply 9.0 V
2020-06-24T11:31:11Z paule32: so the electrically stream half it
2020-06-24T11:31:29Z paule32: 9.0 / 2  =  3.5  on each port
2020-06-24T11:31:35Z paule32: of power
2020-06-24T11:31:45Z phoe: > 3.5
2020-06-24T11:32:00Z paule32: i ignore the wire R
2020-06-24T11:32:00Z phoe: that's 4.5 I think
2020-06-24T11:32:08Z paule32: yes, sorry
2020-06-24T11:33:08Z paule32: now, i need R-Value let 1 V
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2020-06-24T11:33:17Z phoe: anyway, the meaning behind this code or the console output is unreadable to me - I won't be of much help
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2020-06-24T11:33:58Z paule32: therefore, i search for Qtools - to visulize it
2020-06-24T11:34:37Z paule32: i had create the console output, in the hope you can see whats going on
2020-06-24T11:34:43Z paule32: and for me
2020-06-24T11:35:12Z phoe: I can't see what's going on, and I can't see the intent either
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2020-06-24T11:35:31Z phoe: there is a series of print statements that don't really follow what's meant to happen in the code
2020-06-24T11:35:36Z phoe: and the code is also incomplete
2020-06-24T11:36:09Z paule32: see, you can't lay + and - on the pols of the power/supply - it will be break
2020-06-24T11:36:26Z paule32: so, need a consumer
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2020-06-24T11:36:47Z phoe: I
2020-06-24T11:37:00Z phoe: I'm sorry, I don't really know which part of this code you're talking about
2020-06-24T11:37:06Z paule32: instead of resistor, i could set in a led
2020-06-24T11:37:36Z paule32: the (add p m) function
2020-06-24T11:38:02Z paule32: p and m are ports
2020-06-24T11:38:34Z paule32: each component have 2 ports  lhs, and rhs  or  a begin, and a end
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2020-06-24T11:39:01Z phoe: let me ask once again: what's the *actual* problem?
2020-06-24T11:39:09Z Bike: "this is seriously #clschool material" paule has been banned from that channel, if you weren't aware
2020-06-24T11:39:16Z phoe: oh
2020-06-24T11:39:23Z phoe: I start to see the reason
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2020-06-24T11:40:33Z paule32: you can debann me, so i could switch over
2020-06-24T11:41:37Z phoe: I have no mod access there
2020-06-24T11:42:09Z phoe: and I don't know the reasons you were banned there, even though I can guess them
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2020-06-24T11:44:28Z ebrasca: I think he is asking for cl Qtools library.
2020-06-24T11:44:42Z paule32: i am sorry, when the questions are to stupid, or easy. i am no guru or profi like you here, i try to communicate with my school english, and this is not well
2020-06-24T11:45:06Z paule32: ebrasca: , too
2020-06-24T11:46:35Z phoe: I don't consider myself a pro, really; I remember you've been given a lot of Lisp-related advice though, and it seems like you did not utilize most of that advice
2020-06-24T11:47:00Z Bike: asking questions is fine, but you've apparently been unable to learn anything from the answers in the several years you've been around here, which makes the prospect of trying to teach you again unattractive
2020-06-24T11:47:07Z ebrasca: paule32: I have googled it and , meybe this https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools
2020-06-24T11:48:10Z paule32: ebrasca: http://dpaste.com/0HP3K3T
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2020-06-24T19:19:44Z chandler: Hi. I am a newbie and trying to understand how 'block and 'return-from work together.
2020-06-24T19:19:52Z chandler: (defun block-2 ()  (block outer    (block inner      (return-from outer 'space)      (return-from inner 'tube))    (return-from outer 'valve)))
2020-06-24T19:20:06Z chandler: (defun block-2 ()  (block outer    (block inner      (return-from inner 'tube))    (return-from outer 'valve)))
2020-06-24T19:20:31Z chandler: why the first block of code returns 'space and the second returns 'valve
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2020-06-24T19:20:49Z Bike: block-2 executes the return-from outer first, and that exits the block, so there's no more code
2020-06-24T19:20:56Z Bike: er, i mean, the first one executes [..]
2020-06-24T19:21:13Z Bike: the second one returns from the inner block, which puts it at (return-from outer 'valve), which executes, thus returning valve
2020-06-24T19:22:19Z Xach remembers the original chandler from 2001-ish
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2020-06-24T19:24:10Z chandler: Thanks a lot
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2020-06-24T19:35:37Z Krystof: Xach: he might have been a newbie then too
2020-06-24T19:35:46Z Krystof: now he is old enough to vote!
2020-06-24T19:35:59Z phoe: now his Lisp beard is old enough to vote
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2020-06-24T20:09:26Z pve: the original chandler must have been a pretty interesting character, if he is still remembered after almost 20 years
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2020-06-24T21:47:00Z contrapunctus: I'm interested in using something like Coalton for a large-ish project to find out how much it helps, but it seems to assume ML knowledge (I don't know ML), and also seems to be incomplete :\
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2020-06-24T21:54:07Z pve: contrapunctus: I guess you can just define functions until the typechecker is happy, and then call the typechecked functions from lisp, no?
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2020-06-24T22:58:44Z fouric: axion/sdl2 people: i'm looking to generate the .spec files for sdl2 for arm64 - how might i do this after i have a working c2ffi?
2020-06-24T22:59:08Z fouric: the c2ffi manual says that you point it at a particular (header) file, but the sdl2 codebase has a large number of files in it
2020-06-24T22:59:13Z axion: delete them and quickload :sdl2
2020-06-24T22:59:30Z dddddd_ is now known as dddddd
2020-06-24T23:01:09Z fouric: if i do that on an x86 machine, will that generate the spec files for an arm64 machine?
2020-06-24T23:01:15Z axion: yeah
2020-06-24T23:01:33Z fouric: alright, thank you!
2020-06-24T23:01:56Z axion: borodust would be the one to ask any further questions. i dont mess with that stuff much
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2020-06-24T23:06:54Z fouric: gotcha
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2020-06-25T00:22:12Z fe[nl]ix: luis: can you prepare another cffi release by the end of the month ?
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2020-06-25T03:17:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-25T04:14:07Z lukego: I'm using a multidimensional array in Lisp for what I think is the first time. Guess I must have always used nested lists/vectors in the past.
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2020-06-25T04:16:02Z loke`: They can be useful at time.
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2020-06-25T04:17:31Z lukego: Oh I /love/ this: when you write "(loop for x from 1 to 20 do", then press return/newline, Emacs uses only a minimal amount of indentation for the next line. So you can write nested loops like that without hitting the right margin, provided you keep 'do' on the first line. That solves a pain point of looping over products of variables for me :)
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2020-06-25T04:24:19Z loke`: lukego: normally you'd do (loop for ... <newline> do (whatever)
2020-06-25T04:24:50Z loke`: (with a newline after "loop")
2020-06-25T04:25:10Z loke`: If you want a multiline "whatever", you'd perhaps do (loop <newline> for ... <newline> do <newline> (form 1) <newline> (form2)
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2020-06-25T04:55:45Z beach: loke`: Why would you have a newline after LOOP?
2020-06-25T04:55:55Z beach: That's wasting vertical space?
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2020-06-25T05:04:56Z loke`: beach: because it lines up nicer. Especially with the Emacs indentation rules.
2020-06-25T05:05:19Z loke`: For multiline LOOP I always put it on a line of its own.
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2020-06-25T05:05:29Z beach: You must not be using the slime-indentation contribution.  It lines up perfectly well if you use it.
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2020-06-25T05:05:43Z loke`: beach: I am, actually.
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2020-06-25T05:06:34Z loke`: This is how I write it: https://github.com/lokedhs/maxima-client/blob/master/src/markup.lisp#L110
2020-06-25T05:06:41Z beach: Then I see absolutely no reason to waste vertical space by sticking a newline in there, unless of course you are strapped for horizontal space.  But that's different issue.
2020-06-25T05:07:10Z loke`: Matter of taste I guess. I don't see vertical space as something that needs to be conserved :-)
2020-06-25T05:07:26Z beach: Yes, I understood what you said, and I think it's a waste of vertical space.
2020-06-25T05:07:32Z beach: Oh wow!
2020-06-25T05:07:51Z beach: It has to do with how many lines can be simultaneously viewed in a window.
2020-06-25T05:09:52Z loke`: My Emacs has 82 visile lines of text. I'd probably care more if I was using smaller windows.
2020-06-25T05:12:18Z loke`: I beach: I think you probably would have written this macro in a much more veritcally compressed form? https://github.com/lokedhs/maxima-client/blob/master/src/renderer.lisp#L172
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2020-06-25T05:16:27Z pi____: hi all, what is the minimum --dynamic-space-size required to build sbcl from source ? Default is 512MB for 32-bit and 1GB for 64-bit machine.
2020-06-25T05:16:59Z loke`: pi____: the build script should handle that?
2020-06-25T05:17:41Z pi____: I tried building without passing this argument, but build crashed with memory error.
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2020-06-25T05:17:56Z loke`: pi____: what paltform are you on?
2020-06-25T05:18:05Z pi____: I got 434MB of RAM only. :(
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2020-06-25T05:18:19Z loke`: pi____: How much swap?
2020-06-25T05:18:35Z pi____: Swap is 100 MB.
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2020-06-25T05:18:40Z loke`: And what kind of computer is this?
2020-06-25T05:18:46Z pi____: ha ha
2020-06-25T05:18:49Z loke`: pi____: That's way too little. Add a few GB
2020-06-25T05:19:07Z pi____: Raspberry Pi board with 700 MHZ processor and 434 MB RAM.
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2020-06-25T05:19:43Z loke`: pi____: your problem is that you run out of virtual memory on the computer. The heap size of SBCL has nothing to do with it.
2020-06-25T05:20:08Z loke`: Try adding about 2 GB of swap and it'll work, I'm sure. It may not be very fast, but it should work.
2020-06-25T05:20:35Z pi____: @loke - I just started build with 64MB of space, but build is going on slowly for more than an hour.
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2020-06-25T05:21:10Z loke`: pi____: I'm guessing it's not actually progressing.
2020-06-25T05:21:15Z loke`: It's probably died already.
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2020-06-25T05:21:32Z pi____: I can see logs rolling so far.
2020-06-25T05:22:13Z pi____: [162/310] src/compiler/fndb - that is line just logged to console.
2020-06-25T05:22:34Z loke`: I would fully expect the SBCL build to throw a heap exhausted error with only 64 MB
2020-06-25T05:23:01Z pi____: Is dynamice space is same as JVM max heap size ?
2020-06-25T05:23:15Z loke`: pi____: not the same, but it's conceptually similar, yes.
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2020-06-25T05:24:55Z pi____: How people used to program on low conf machine in 80's and 90's ? I thought lisp will do just fine on such low end machine.
2020-06-25T05:25:40Z loke`: pi____: You have to use a Lisp from that time, and use software from that time too :-)
2020-06-25T05:26:09Z pi____: Well default SBCL i installed from apt-get working just fine.
2020-06-25T05:26:10Z loke`: CLISP runs very well on such platforms for example.
2020-06-25T05:26:30Z loke`: I also compiled ECL on a LEGO Mindstorms controller, which has 32 MB of RAM if I'm not mistaken.
2020-06-25T05:26:45Z pi____: But It did not have mult threading enabled. That is why I am trying to build from source.
2020-06-25T05:27:05Z loke`: pi____: I'd just add more swap and see how it goes.
2020-06-25T05:27:14Z pi____: In fact, i was able to write simple math calculator in emacs+slime env without any issue
2020-06-25T05:27:37Z pi____: When I started hunchentoot server, the slime just hanged
2020-06-25T05:28:05Z pi____: Found comment on Stackoverflow that sbcl might not have thread support enabled
2020-06-25T05:28:19Z pi____: and it is waiting for request on socket
2020-06-25T05:28:44Z pi____: so i can't do anything in slime. I have to kill emacs and restart it.
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2020-06-25T05:30:34Z loke`: pi____: another solution is to compile it on a machine with more memory. You could even set up a QEMU ARM emualtor on your main workstation and compile there.
2020-06-25T05:30:36Z lukego: I'm toying with the idea of allowing 100 columns (gasp) instead of 80. YOLO amirite
2020-06-25T05:30:54Z loke`: lukego: I've used 140 colums for a long time now. It's a nice width.
2020-06-25T05:31:07Z loke`: There is exactly zero reason to use 80.
2020-06-25T05:32:11Z lukego: Glad we sorted that out..
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2020-06-25T05:34:12Z pi____: loke`: Right now this is the only machine I got. My macbook is at service center.
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2020-06-25T05:39:06Z loke`: pi____: set up a machine on Digital Ocean or something?
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2020-06-25T05:40:33Z pi____: loke`: the build is in progress right now, so if it fails I will try that.
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2020-06-25T05:42:22Z seok: whats the term for when a database ensures one operation is completed before another one?
2020-06-25T05:42:37Z no-defun-allowed: Atomicity?
2020-06-25T05:42:41Z no-defun-allowed: In a database, those might be called transactions.
2020-06-25T05:42:55Z seok: atomicity is right i think
2020-06-25T05:43:03Z seok: I think there's another one they use for dbs tho
2020-06-25T05:43:04Z seok: ?
2020-06-25T05:43:18Z seok: ah
2020-06-25T05:43:20Z seok: acid
2020-06-25T05:43:27Z seok: atomicity is the a of acid
2020-06-25T05:43:29Z seok: thanks
2020-06-25T05:43:34Z no-defun-allowed: Well, the unit of which changes are done is a transaction.
2020-06-25T05:43:50Z seok: yeah
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2020-06-25T05:44:13Z no-defun-allowed: What's the right way to make sure a class is a direct-superclass of a class I'm instantiating with the MOP?
2020-06-25T05:45:00Z beach: "make sure"?
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2020-06-25T05:45:14Z beach: You want to not instantiate if the condition does not hold?
2020-06-25T05:45:47Z beach: And what does it mean to "instantiate with the MOP"?  MAKE-INSTANCE is standard Common Lisp.
2020-06-25T05:45:54Z no-defun-allowed: Good point, that is a vague question. I want to add a direct superclass to instances of a metaclass.
2020-06-25T05:46:10Z beach: Ah.
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2020-06-25T05:46:54Z beach: Let's see...
2020-06-25T05:47:01Z beach: mop ensure-class
2020-06-25T05:47:01Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ensure-class.html
2020-06-25T05:47:35Z beach: Or you can probably just do REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
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2020-06-25T05:48:56Z no-defun-allowed: I have tried using a :around method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE specialised to that metaclass, and a method for CLASS-DIRECT-SUPERCLASSES, but neither appears to work correctly when I test (typep (make-instance 'a-class-with-that-metaclass) 'that-direct-superclass) with various implementations.
2020-06-25T05:50:14Z beach: What did your :AROUND method do?
2020-06-25T05:50:20Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: check if the type is a member of CLASS-DIRECT-SUBCLASSES
2020-06-25T05:50:32Z phoe: s/type/class/
2020-06-25T05:51:45Z phoe: that's how the check can be done
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2020-06-25T05:52:15Z phoe: oh, wait, that's somewhat more complex...
2020-06-25T05:52:28Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I'll let phoe help you.  Otherwise, I will just add noise to the discussion.
2020-06-25T05:52:45Z phoe: beach: you are probably more awake than me, so more able to help
2020-06-25T05:53:13Z no-defun-allowed: It would (apply #'call-next-method :direct-superclasses (append direct-superclasses (list <the class I want to add>)) rest)
2020-06-25T05:54:15Z beach: And in what way did it fail?
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2020-06-25T05:55:18Z no-defun-allowed: When I proceeded to test (typep (make-instance 'a-class) 'the-class-I-added), I would get NIL, but that class was in the class-direct-superclasses and class-precedence-list.
2020-06-25T05:55:50Z beach: That's strange.
2020-06-25T05:56:12Z no-defun-allowed: Pardon me, that was only in some implementations. Others would return T as expected.
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2020-06-25T05:56:26Z beach: Ouch.
2020-06-25T05:56:38Z beach: Which ones returned NIL?
2020-06-25T05:56:42Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: I assume you used CLOSER-MOP
2020-06-25T05:56:57Z phoe: because this sounds like a bug of sorts
2020-06-25T05:57:01Z no-defun-allowed: Although, after staring at it for a bit, it has been working, and I don't know what I changed. Maybe I forgot some C-c C-c's.
2020-06-25T05:57:02Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah.
2020-06-25T05:58:03Z beach: Your technique ought to work.
2020-06-25T05:58:04Z no-defun-allowed: The method for class-direct-superclasses didn't work on SBCL, and then the :around method on initialize-instance didn't work on Clozure, but now the latter works on both. Testing ECL now.
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2020-06-25T05:58:54Z beach: Yeah, I don't think your method on CLASS-DIRECT-SUPERCLASSES can work.
2020-06-25T05:59:23Z no-defun-allowed: And I take it I should define a similar method for REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE?
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2020-06-25T05:59:39Z phoe: beach: wait, a method on C-D-S?
2020-06-25T06:00:27Z phoe: hm
2020-06-25T06:00:35Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Yes, probably so.  You need to check that the keyword argument was given at all, and if so add your class.
2020-06-25T06:01:14Z no-defun-allowed: json-mop does another thing, which is to cons on its JSON-SERIALIZABLE class in a method for COMPUTE-CLASS-PRECEDENCE-LIST.
2020-06-25T06:02:13Z beach: Hmm.  OK.
2020-06-25T06:02:26Z no-defun-allowed: That is subtly broken, because now if you have a generic function with one method specialised on the json-serializable class, and another specialised on an instance of that metaclass, the former will be selected first.
2020-06-25T06:03:01Z beach: I see, yes.
2020-06-25T06:03:53Z no-defun-allowed is waiting for Ironclad to compile on ECL, because that is a dependency of the code in question. Maybe she could have made a smaller test case in that time.
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2020-06-25T06:10:32Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, I need to fix some other stuff apparently, but that should work. Thanks beach and phoe!
2020-06-25T06:12:19Z no-defun-allowed: There we go, it works on ECL now.
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2020-06-25T06:27:20Z beach: Great!
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2020-06-25T09:44:56Z Gnuxie[m]: *no-defun-allowed*: json mop doesn't use cpl
2020-06-25T09:45:26Z no-defun-allowed: Gnuxie 💜🐝: Not this one? https://github.com/gschjetne/json-mop/blob/master/src/json-mop.lisp#L52
2020-06-25T09:46:20Z Gnuxie[m]: Ahh sorry, yep
2020-06-25T09:46:39Z no-defun-allowed: And your fix does exactly what I do now in Netfarm. Heh.
2020-06-25T09:47:09Z Gnuxie[m]: The open PR there is actually wrong too I need to change it
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2020-06-25T09:54:33Z Gnuxie[m]: *no-defun-allowed*: https://gitlab.com/Gnuxie/json-clos/-/blob/master/code/mop/json-serializable-class.lisp#L97
2020-06-25T09:54:36Z Gnuxie[m]: Like this?
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2020-06-25T09:55:08Z no-defun-allowed: That's what I used to do in Netfarm, but that's still buggy.
2020-06-25T09:55:58Z no-defun-allowed: https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/netfarm/-/blob/master/Code/Objects/MOP/netfarm-class.lisp#L89 is the result of the preceding conversation.
2020-06-25T09:59:01Z Gnuxie[m]: Damn ok
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2020-06-25T10:45:14Z phoe: beach: https://dept-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr/~strandh/index.en.html "What is wrong with Lisp" gives a 404
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2020-06-25T10:47:07Z no-defun-allowed: I am told "Firefox does not trust this site because it uses a certificate that is not valid for dept-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr. The certificate is only valid for dept-info.labri.fr." here.
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2020-06-25T10:47:19Z phoe: that too
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2020-06-25T10:48:11Z no-defun-allowed: When I correct the URL, I can confirm that document is not found, nor "Psychology of Learning"; but I think they are the same as the pages on metamodular.com with some formatting changes.
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2020-06-25T11:14:49Z jackdaniel: more I use defclass more I'm convinced, that after the slot name each option should be written in a new line
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2020-06-25T11:16:54Z jackdaniel: s/in/after/
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2020-06-25T11:30:47Z paule32_: hello
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2020-06-25T11:31:25Z paule32: i have download, install, play with quicklisp, now, i would play with Qtools
2020-06-25T11:31:47Z paule32: on this, i would set the maximum width of a qline edit
2020-06-25T11:31:54Z paule32: but i fail
2020-06-25T11:31:58Z paule32: (define-subwidget (main-window name) (q+:make-qlineedit main-window)
2020-06-25T11:31:58Z paule32:   (setf (q+:placeholder-text name) "Your name please."))
2020-06-25T11:32:15Z paule32: this is a example, from qtools
2020-06-25T11:32:30Z phoe: are you familiar with how Qt works?
2020-06-25T11:32:42Z paule32: yes, but in c++
2020-06-25T11:33:44Z paule32: so, how can i set the maximumwidth in lisp
2020-06-25T11:33:45Z paule32: ?
2020-06-25T11:34:29Z phoe: (named-readtables:in-readtable :qtools) (setf (q+:maximum-width name) 1234)
2020-06-25T11:34:32Z phoe: should work like that
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2020-06-25T11:34:51Z phoe: just make sure you're in the proper readtable, otherwise q+: won't work
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2020-06-25T11:37:05Z paule32: ok, thank you
2020-06-25T11:37:12Z paule32: it works
2020-06-25T11:37:42Z paule32: give it a reason that the function names/properties differ from Qt and Lisp ?
2020-06-25T11:38:55Z phoe: yes
2020-06-25T11:39:06Z phoe: C++ has a different casing than Lisp
2020-06-25T11:39:21Z phoe: and so Qtools translates from e.g. minimumWidth to minimum-width
2020-06-25T11:39:29Z paule32:  in Qt C++ => maximumWidth  , and in Lisp:  maximum-width
2020-06-25T11:39:32Z paule32: ah ok
2020-06-25T11:39:32Z phoe: that is what the q+: reader macro does
2020-06-25T11:39:34Z phoe: yes, exactly.
2020-06-25T11:39:49Z phoe: Qtools is based on CommonQt, which uses the C++ naming
2020-06-25T11:40:10Z phoe: Qtools makes the names more consistent in style with the Lisp world though
2020-06-25T11:40:30Z paule32: ok
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2020-06-25T12:45:47Z beach: phoe: The correct documents are now on metamodular.com.
2020-06-25T12:46:26Z phoe: beach: thanks, found them there.
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2020-06-25T12:55:48Z beach: phoe: I plan to record the presentation later this afternoon.
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2020-06-25T13:20:02Z phoe: beach: thanks!
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2020-06-25T14:54:11Z nabataeus: Hello friends
2020-06-25T14:56:19Z beach: Hello nabataeus.
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2020-06-25T14:58:25Z nabataeus: I started reading "on lisp" by paul graham
2020-06-25T14:58:32Z nabataeus: I think the book is pretty cool
2020-06-25T14:58:41Z beach: Yes, but not a book for beginners.
2020-06-25T14:59:20Z nabataeus: I sure know that, I've read practical common lisp before
2020-06-25T14:59:29Z beach: Whew!
2020-06-25T15:00:14Z nabataeus: Yeah, it has introductory sections which is pretty good
2020-06-25T15:00:29Z nabataeus: A more introductory book on lisp would be "ANSI Common Lisp" right?
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2020-06-25T15:01:14Z beach: Yes, but Graham's coding style is not that great, and he doesn't like CLOS, so PCL is better than Ansi Common Lisp in that respect.
2020-06-25T15:02:18Z nabataeus: Oh yeah, i've found that it's a bit difficult reading his code, i get a headache everytime i see recursion haha
2020-06-25T15:02:47Z nabataeus: But lisp is not really meant to be functional at all. Is it?
2020-06-25T15:03:12Z nabataeus: Or in other words, while it has functional programming capabilities, you're not supposed to write purely functional code.
2020-06-25T15:03:57Z beach: Correct, Common Lisp is a multi-paradigm language.  You will find the functional programming style mostly in macro expanders.
2020-06-25T15:04:16Z beach: ... simply because they should be side-effect free, and performance is not an issue.
2020-06-25T15:05:10Z beach: For the rest of the code, modern Common Lisp uses a lot of generic functions and classes, so CLOS-style object-oriented code.
2020-06-25T15:05:24Z nabataeus: Macros should be side effect free? But i've seen macros written in a very imperative style. I suppose it's not a good practice then. ^^
2020-06-25T15:05:59Z beach: They could be written in an imperative style, but they should not have any side effects to the global environment.
2020-06-25T15:06:18Z nabataeus: Mind providing an example please?
2020-06-25T15:06:25Z beach: I said that the functional style is mostly used in macro expanders, but I didn't say that most macro expanders use the functional style.
2020-06-25T15:06:50Z beach: A macro expander that increments a global variable would be an example of a side effect.
2020-06-25T15:07:38Z beach: I am talking about the code that transforms one form to another form.  Not the code that results from the expansion.  The latter code can be anything of course.
2020-06-25T15:09:12Z nabataeus: I see
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2020-06-25T15:13:17Z nabataeus: So, if I'm following you correctly, macros that transform code from one form to another form, with side effects, are considered a bad practice.
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2020-06-25T15:14:20Z beach: As long as the side effects are to lexical variables private to the macro expander itself, there is no problem.  What is not great is when there are side lasting effects to the global environment, as a result of the macro expander being executed.
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2020-06-25T15:15:48Z nabataeus: Ah, this makes sense, since mutating or iterating global variables is deemed destructive to the program.
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2020-06-25T15:16:48Z nabataeus: My apologies if I'm asking dumb questions here, I'm new to programming in general. :D
2020-06-25T15:17:15Z beach: There is no problem of doing that in application code.  The problem I am talking about is side effects as a result of a macro being expanded.  The standard does not tell you how many times a macro expander might be invoked, so side effects would have unpredictable results.
2020-06-25T15:18:42Z beach: Imagine there is a global variable *foo* with the value 234.  Then you COMPILE the following code (defun fun (x) (when (= x 2) 33)).  And now *foo* has the value 456.
2020-06-25T15:19:46Z beach: ... because someone write (defmacro when (condition &body body) (incf *foo* 234) `(if ,condition (progn ,@body)))
2020-06-25T15:21:11Z MrtnDk[m]: <nabataeus "My apologies if I'm asking dumb "> (progn (defun whack-newbie (victim) (laugh 'evilly) (whack victim) (whack-newbie name)) (whack-newbie nabataeus))
2020-06-25T15:21:53Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: Please refrain!
2020-06-25T15:22:12Z nabataeus: Haha :D
2020-06-25T15:22:53Z nabataeus: But I suppose mutating global variables in general a bad practice, and not just limited to macros.
2020-06-25T15:23:17Z MrtnDk[m]: Ahh man, I forgot the most important thing, a friendly smiley.
2020-06-25T15:23:32Z nabataeus: ... so it would be still a bad practice if I mutate in a DEFUN block.
2020-06-25T15:23:35Z beach: No, like I said, mutating global variables is fine, when you need to have some state of the system being modified as a result of executing code.
2020-06-25T15:24:07Z nabataeus: Alright. Thx for the info. :D
2020-06-25T15:25:05Z MrtnDk[m]: (beach — from what exactly)?
2020-06-25T15:26:14Z beach: Noise!  In particular in the middle of a serious exchange.
2020-06-25T15:29:35Z MrtnDk[m]: beach : Ahh yeah, I forgot for a second that reply doesn't work well with IRC.
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2020-06-25T15:35:41Z nabataeus: Oh, I also found this which kind of made me curious -- is there a difference between LISTP and CONSP?
2020-06-25T15:36:04Z nabataeus: ... other than the name, obviously. :P
2020-06-25T15:36:09Z beach: Yes, the empty list is a valid list, and the empty list is NIL.
2020-06-25T15:36:40Z beach: But NIL is a symbol so it is not a CONS.
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2020-06-25T15:40:14Z beach: Try (listp nil) and (consp nil).
2020-06-25T15:40:56Z nabataeus: (listp nil) -> T -- (consp nil) -> NIL
2020-06-25T15:41:10Z beach: Exactly!
2020-06-25T15:42:01Z nabataeus: I see, however (consp '(nil)) returns T, I guess that's because NIL is an element inside the list.
2020-06-25T15:42:26Z beach: Yes, that's a list with one element in it.  So it is not the empty list.
2020-06-25T15:42:55Z nabataeus: Yeah, but isn't NIL supposed end a list or something alike?
2020-06-25T15:43:01Z nabataeus: How can you have a list with NIL.
2020-06-25T15:43:22Z eta: the CAR is NIL and the CDR is NIL
2020-06-25T15:43:23Z beach: NIL is just another object.  So it can be an element of a list.
2020-06-25T15:43:26Z aeth: Because NIL in the CDR ends the list. A list with NIL has it in the CAR
2020-06-25T15:43:48Z aeth: '(1 2 3) is sugar for '(1 . (2 . (3 . NIL)))
2020-06-25T15:44:04Z beach: nabataeus: It looks like you are going to get help from others, so I will be quiet to avoid adding to the noise level.
2020-06-25T15:44:05Z aeth: '(NIL) is sugar for '(NIL . NIL)
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2020-06-25T15:45:21Z aeth: And, for completeness, '() is 'NIL which is NIL
2020-06-25T15:46:22Z nabataeus: aeth: I see, so lists are basically pairs within nested pairs, that end with NIL.
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2020-06-25T15:47:35Z aeth: Well, not quite. Proper lists end in NIL. Improper lists do not. '(1 2 . 3) is '(1 . (2 . 3))
2020-06-25T15:47:44Z aeth: Generally, APIs that expect lists expect proper lists, though.
2020-06-25T15:48:06Z aeth: e.g. this will error: (mapcar #'1+ '(1 2 . 3))
2020-06-25T15:48:51Z aeth: Improper lists are rare, but they can exist because of the way lists work (being built up from cons pairs)
2020-06-25T15:51:52Z nabataeus: Interesting.
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2020-06-25T15:52:36Z aeth: Afaik, efficiently, what you do is you go through an entire list and error at the end if the CDR is neither NIL (the normal terminator) nor a cons
2020-06-25T15:53:02Z aeth: (Or you can just use things that already do this, like MAPCAR.)
2020-06-25T15:53:15Z aeth: You can see this if you introduce a side effect, e.g.: (mapcar #'print '(1 2 . 3))
2020-06-25T15:54:06Z aeth: You can check up front with alexandria:proper-list-p or checking the type alexandria:proper-list, but then that's an O(n) check because you'd have to iterate through the entire list to do so.
2020-06-25T15:55:33Z nabataeus: Yes, MAPCAR does return the error "3 is not of type LIST".
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2020-06-25T15:58:41Z nabataeus: So basically an improper list is a list that ends with a pair instead of NIL.
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2020-06-25T16:07:57Z aeth: nabataeus: No, a list doesn't end with a pair. If it's a pair, then it continues. An improper list ends with anything other than a NIL.
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2020-06-25T16:08:20Z aeth: '(1 2 3) ends with NIL and is actually the same as '(1 2 3 . nil)
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2020-06-25T16:09:40Z nabataeus: Oh... :D This makes sense.
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2020-06-25T16:13:52Z beach: aeth: Not true.
2020-06-25T16:14:03Z beach: aeth: Any ATOM other than NIL.
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2020-06-25T16:18:32Z jackdaniel: I'm still trying to traverse the #1=(foo . #1#) to see what it ends with, no luck so far
2020-06-25T16:18:52Z beach: Patience!
2020-06-25T16:18:58Z jackdaniel: :)
2020-06-25T16:19:01Z eta: hang on
2020-06-25T16:19:12Z eta: does bordeaux-threads no-op RELEASE-RECURSIVE-LOCK on SBCL
2020-06-25T16:19:20Z eta: because I think it does and that's /really/ bad behaviour
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2020-06-25T16:20:15Z jackdaniel: acquire-recursive-lock is also a no-op, you are expected to use with-recursive-lock-held
2020-06-25T16:20:44Z jackdaniel: that said, using recursive locks with condition variables in sbcl is a bad idea on its own terms, because spurious wakeup of the condition does not re-acquire the lock
2020-06-25T16:21:05Z eta: jackdaniel, yeah, okay, so this fun behaviour is the cause of all sorts of fun deadlocks
2020-06-25T16:21:17Z eta: I tried to define a WITHOUT-RECURSIVE-LOCK-HELD implemented in terms of those primitives
2020-06-25T16:21:25Z eta: ....so that's been doing nothing all this time
2020-06-25T16:21:41Z eta: not using condvars though
2020-06-25T16:21:41Z jackdaniel: heh
2020-06-25T16:22:05Z eta: well, that explains this mystery deadlock that's been bugging me for a month
2020-06-25T16:22:12Z jackdaniel: (I thought that you said "hang on" and started traversing the list though)
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2020-06-25T16:24:52Z eta: hah
2020-06-25T16:25:07Z eta: jackdaniel, foo foo foo foo foo...
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2020-06-25T16:28:47Z aeth: beach: Sorry, I meant to put an "Otherwise," in front of my third sentence.
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2020-06-25T16:29:08Z aeth: (Since the prior one is saying that a pair in the CDR doesn't terminate the list.)
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2020-06-25T19:56:57Z pve: Hi, is this the correct way (roughly) to define a function equivalent to defparameter?
2020-06-25T19:57:00Z pve: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1929
2020-06-25T19:57:51Z Bike: other than the docstring, yeah, looks like it to me
2020-06-25T19:58:01Z pve: yeah minus the docstring
2020-06-25T19:58:05Z pve: thank you
2020-06-25T19:58:15Z pve: there's no built-in function, right?
2020-06-25T19:58:20Z Bike: no.
2020-06-25T19:58:24Z pve: ok great
2020-06-25T19:58:54Z Bike: though, for a runtime application like this you may not need to declare the symbol special, in which case it's just set.
2020-06-25T19:59:24Z Bike: you can use set and symbol-value for a symbol independently of whether it's special.
2020-06-25T19:59:43Z pve: hmm right
2020-06-25T20:04:49Z Bike: should only matter if you're also, like, evaluating or compiling code that uses the symbols
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2020-06-25T20:10:27Z pve: yeah, I was just thinking about how to declare (or if at all) special variables in this language I'm making that doesn't have macros per se
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2020-06-25T20:12:14Z pve: I've noticed that doing certain things without dynamic variables can get.. a little clunky
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2020-06-25T20:18:27Z phoe: pve: you're implementing Smalltalk, right?
2020-06-25T20:18:32Z phoe: or did I mix things up
2020-06-25T20:19:48Z pve: phoe: yep, or a smalltalk-inspired language
2020-06-25T20:21:13Z phoe: there's no real global variables in Smalltalk, it seems; a way to emulate those is to create variables in the global dictionary named "Smalltalk"
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2020-06-25T20:21:39Z phoe: so, basically, speaking Lisp, there's a single global hashtable that holds all the globvar-value mappings
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2020-06-25T20:22:08Z phoe: dirty, but then again, it's Smalltalk, and global variables don't play as much of a role as global vars do in Lisp
2020-06-25T20:23:01Z pve: yep, although I have no qualms about mixing in lisp concepts if they are useful
2020-06-25T20:23:10Z pve: not a purist by any means
2020-06-25T20:23:20Z phoe: well then, global dynamic variables do make things very nice
2020-06-25T20:25:13Z pve: can I show you what I got so far?
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2020-06-25T20:48:05Z phoe: pve: you may, though it is too late for me to comprehend programming
2020-06-25T20:48:41Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: will you accept an "expected failures" features in fiveam?
2020-06-25T20:50:08Z jackdaniel: s/features/feature/
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2020-06-25T20:53:18Z pve: phoe: hehe it's ok, here are a couple of screenshots (because syntax highlighting):
2020-06-25T20:53:22Z pve: https://imgur.com/a/pLGEuOT
2020-06-25T20:53:56Z pve: obviously it's very much wip, and forgive the bad font
2020-06-25T20:54:56Z pve: the first picture defines the loader's source-file class, the second defines an asdf-module
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2020-06-25T21:18:22Z phoe: the "mode: lisp" is kind of lying, but
2020-06-25T21:18:35Z phoe: oh wait a second
2020-06-25T21:18:52Z phoe: it's also not, kind of
2020-06-25T21:19:22Z edgar-rft: Smalltalk + Common Lisp = "Small Lisp" or "Common Talk"?
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2020-06-25T21:19:37Z pve: it's hard to say if it's lying
2020-06-25T21:20:07Z Xach: SML or C++/Tk
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2020-06-25T21:20:46Z pve: i just put it there to get C-c C-k etc working
2020-06-25T21:20:56Z bitmapper: did someone say SML
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2020-06-25T21:23:45Z pve: phoe: because almost everything in the first picture is a lisp symbol, exeptions being "." and ","
2020-06-25T21:23:56Z pve: exceptions
2020-06-25T21:24:09Z phoe: oooooh
2020-06-25T21:24:11Z phoe: I see
2020-06-25T21:24:56Z Inline: edgar-rft: common talk
2020-06-25T21:24:58Z pve: or lisp form would be a better way to put it
2020-06-25T21:25:12Z Inline: edgar-rft: since it's extended now
2020-06-25T21:25:15Z Inline: lol
2020-06-25T21:25:45Z bitmapper: edgar-rft: flavors
2020-06-25T21:26:40Z Inline: vanilla topping please
2020-06-25T21:26:44Z Inline: lol
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2020-06-25T21:46:58Z edgar-rft: I'm also in favour of Common-Talk :-)
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2020-06-26T01:25:42Z liamz[m]: gday
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2020-06-26T02:04:26Z no-defun-allowed: Hello liamz
2020-06-26T02:06:31Z liamz[m]: hey how's it going?
2020-06-26T02:06:50Z liamz[m]: I've just started learning lisp 💫
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2020-06-26T02:08:34Z no-defun-allowed: Alright thanks.
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2020-06-26T02:13:06Z liamz[m]: can someone explain where +
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2020-06-26T02:13:42Z liamz[m]: is implemented?
2020-06-26T02:13:53Z no-defun-allowed: The variable or function?
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2020-06-26T02:14:42Z no-defun-allowed: Or method combination, even.
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2020-06-26T02:15:04Z liamz[m] sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/OUjvZrUImBchIxoOGcIUBLHV >
2020-06-26T02:15:05Z liamz[m]: oh, wild
2020-06-26T02:15:21Z liamz[m]: I didn't know `READ` was a thing
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2020-06-26T02:16:24Z liamz[m]: I was wondering why `#` had so many forms, eg. `#'`, `#(1 2 3)` etc
2020-06-26T02:17:11Z no-defun-allowed: clhs 2.4.8
2020-06-26T02:17:12Z specbot: Sharpsign: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm
2020-06-26T02:18:37Z no-defun-allowed: # is a "dispatching macro character", so # doesn't have those forms per se; it reads an optional number and then some other character, and dispatches to another function to read the form.
2020-06-26T02:18:49Z no-defun-allowed: # is a "dispatching macro character", so # doesn't have those forms per se; it reads an optional number and then some other character, and dispatches to another function to read the form.
2020-06-26T02:19:01Z no-defun-allowed: Connection dropped out, sorry.
2020-06-26T02:19:11Z liamz[m]: haha no worries
2020-06-26T02:19:12Z liamz[m]: thanks
2020-06-26T02:21:42Z liamz[m]: Ahh
2020-06-26T02:21:59Z liamz[m]: so I'm playing around with `read`
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2020-06-26T02:23:21Z liamz[m]: trying to understand what `#'` expands to
2020-06-26T02:23:43Z liamz[m]: I'm seeing that we have a reader, which deals with macros, and `#'` is a macro
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2020-06-26T02:24:43Z liamz[m]: reader is the basis of the repo, which is cool
2020-06-26T02:25:40Z no-defun-allowed: Reader macros, which are distinct from "macros".
2020-06-26T02:28:46Z White_Flame: liamz[m]: https://pastebin.com/pYaghqj5
2020-06-26T02:29:04Z White_Flame: (also, what's with all these non-IRC bridges?  it messes with features, handles, etc etc)
2020-06-26T02:30:03Z liamz[m]: yah sorry White_Flame, I'm using Riot with a Matrix bridge, to me, your handle looks "native"
2020-06-26T02:30:39Z White_Flame: right, and here on IRC, edits, nicks, etc don't look very native and/or are different on matrix
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2020-06-26T02:31:07Z White_Flame: it's just happening more and more often
2020-06-26T02:31:09Z no-defun-allowed: White_Flame: As mentioned a few days ago (before cussing out and going for a tea break), the Matrix bridge rewrites IRC names to phony Matrix user IDs, but not Matrix IDs to IRC names.
2020-06-26T02:31:47Z White_Flame: well yeah
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2020-06-26T02:46:19Z liamz[m]: is "ACTION sent a long message" what yall see?
2020-06-26T02:46:49Z White_Flame: "liamz[m] sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/OUjvZrUImBchIxoOGcIUBLHV >"
2020-06-26T02:47:07Z White_Flame: which is standard fare for these bridges
2020-06-26T02:47:13Z aeth tests
2020-06-26T02:47:18Z aeth: Do you see that as "ACTION tests"?
2020-06-26T02:47:27Z White_Flame: no, "aeth tests"
2020-06-26T02:47:27Z liamz[m]: ahh.
2020-06-26T02:47:33Z aeth: I mean, on Matrix
2020-06-26T02:47:37Z liamz[m]: yeah I do, Riot Desktop
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2020-06-26T02:47:55Z White_Flame: but anyway, troubleshooting irc bridges really isn't on topic here
2020-06-26T02:48:09Z White_Flame: although whether we want them is a separate issue
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2020-06-26T02:50:38Z liamz[m]: yeah fair
2020-06-26T02:53:11Z White_Flame: liamz[m]: btw, to answer your original question:
2020-06-26T02:53:22Z White_Flame: ' reads the next thing and generates (QUOTE <thing>)
2020-06-26T02:53:29Z White_Flame: while #' reads the next thing and generates (FUNCTION <thing>)
2020-06-26T02:54:19Z liamz[m]: I find it surprising that Lisp has an objects system
2020-06-26T02:54:45Z liamz[m]: I read the original paper to get a sense for the design, is there something similar that goes into the "stdlib"
2020-06-26T02:54:47Z White_Flame: and you can define or redefine whatever you want in the reader, but it is basically just a single-character dispatch wtih some other fiddly bits; it's not a lexer/parser where you can dispatch on words easily
2020-06-26T02:54:55Z White_Flame: unless you do so manually
2020-06-26T02:55:50Z White_Flame: CLtL2 (though pre-spec and a bit outdated) runs through the stuff that woudl be standardized in a more approachable way
2020-06-26T02:56:01Z White_Flame: the CLHS is pure reference
2020-06-26T02:57:35Z White_Flame: Practical Common Lisp is an oft-recommended introduction to the language
2020-06-26T02:59:31Z liamz[m]: Whaaaaaat.
2020-06-26T02:59:43Z White_Flame: ?
2020-06-26T02:59:45Z liamz[m]: CLOS method dispatch is insane.
2020-06-26T03:00:37Z no-defun-allowed: clhs 7.6.6
2020-06-26T03:00:37Z specbot: Method Selection and Combination: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ff.htm
2020-06-26T03:00:37Z White_Flame: it's certainly easier to use in many regards
2020-06-26T03:00:38Z liamz[m]: I was mostly inspired to learn lisp from Paul Graham's articles
2020-06-26T03:00:42Z no-defun-allowed: Very sane and standardised.
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2020-06-26T03:01:49Z White_Flame: in fact, I often use methods without ever using a defclass, to deal with structs and native type dispatch
2020-06-26T03:02:11Z White_Flame: (well, native class dispatch to be more precise)
2020-06-26T03:03:23Z liamz[m]: That's cool.
2020-06-26T03:03:54Z liamz[m]: So `defmethod` expands to something which calls out to the dynamic dispatch logic?
2020-06-26T03:04:25Z liamz[m]: If code/data are the same, is it possible to print the "source" of a method like `defmethod`, to inspect how it works?
2020-06-26T03:05:12Z White_Flame: specifically, source code & data are the same.  In most instances the actual function object is compiled native code, and the instance might have debugging helpers that keep the original source dragged in for reference
2020-06-26T03:07:46Z no-defun-allowed: defmethod will add a method object to the generic function. Calling the generic function will compute the applicable method list, and then call those as it sees fit, or something to that effect.
2020-06-26T03:08:18Z White_Flame: and a Sufficiently Advanced Compiler™ can basically do whatever it wants to accomplish that
2020-06-26T03:09:32Z no-defun-allowed: And in my opinion, kludging around with single dispatch and no method combination, and calling the result a "design pattern" is more insane.
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2020-06-26T03:13:17Z liamz[m]: XD
2020-06-26T03:13:35Z liamz[m]: does it call all matched methods or just one?
2020-06-26T03:13:47Z no-defun-allowed: Depends on the method combination.
2020-06-26T03:15:14Z no-defun-allowed: clhs 7.6.6.2 describes the standard method combination.
2020-06-26T03:15:40Z liamz[m]: how did you get into learning lisp *no-defun-allowed*
2020-06-26T03:16:28Z no-defun-allowed: liamz: Cause I was annoyed with Python, and couldn't find anything else I could bear programming in.
2020-06-26T03:17:29Z aeth: I loved Python until I tried to do FP in it.
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2020-06-26T03:17:52Z no-defun-allowed: And/or because of Emacs (check my Matrix ID)
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2020-06-26T03:35:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-26T03:54:40Z liamz[m]: Morninggg
2020-06-26T03:55:25Z liamz[m]: Heh yeah, doesn’t emacs have its own deffun for user space plugins?
2020-06-26T03:57:27Z beach: liamz[m]: Emacs Lisp is a different Lisp dialect.  It is similar to Common Lisp, but not the same.
2020-06-26T03:58:29Z beach: RMS wrote GNU Emacs by writing a small Lisp system in C and then writing much of Emacs in that Lisp dialect.
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2020-06-26T04:14:42Z beach: liamz[m]: Does that answer your question?
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2020-06-26T04:24:29Z liamz[m]: yeah sure does!
2020-06-26T04:24:30Z liamz[m]: haha sorry, making that special bean juice.
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2020-06-26T08:08:19Z kinope: Hey!
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2020-06-26T08:11:55Z kinope: I've looked around but I can't find a solution for a problem I'm having while trying to define specialised methods on a generic function across multiple packages.
2020-06-26T08:13:22Z kinope: There is a function in the first package that needs to call the right method, but it is as if it can't see the methods that have been defined in the second package.
2020-06-26T08:15:37Z kinope: The second package is loaded after the first
2020-06-26T08:16:50Z beach: kinope: Packages are not loaded.  Do you mean ASDF systems?  A package is a mapping from names to symbols.  Perhaps you are not in the same package when you define the generic function and when you define the method?
2020-06-26T08:16:51Z splittist: But you are referring to the symbol naming the generic function from the first package? That is, defmethod first-package:function ((thing thing) x y z) ...
2020-06-26T08:17:10Z kinope: s/package/fileg
2020-06-26T08:17:38Z beach: kinope: You need to verify the package that the code is read in.
2020-06-26T08:17:50Z beach: kinope: Do your files start with (in-package ...)?
2020-06-26T08:17:55Z beach: [they should]
2020-06-26T08:18:04Z kinope: yes they do
2020-06-26T08:18:31Z beach: And is it the same package for the file in which the generic function is defined and for the file in which the method is defined?
2020-06-26T08:18:54Z beach: If not, you have two different symbols package1:name and package2:name.
2020-06-26T08:19:33Z kinope: I tried (defmethod package1:method  ...) from the second file but maybe I'm missing something
2020-06-26T08:20:07Z beach: That should work, provided that package1 is the one in use when the DEFGENERIC form is read.
2020-06-26T08:20:31Z beach: Er, wait, what is :METHOD?
2020-06-26T08:20:47Z beach: It should be PACKAGE1:NAME-OF-GENERIC-FUNCTION.
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2020-06-26T08:21:47Z kinope: yes should have written name-of-generic-function there. I'm going to try something, brb
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2020-06-26T08:22:10Z beach: And you didn't answer my question about whether the package name after (in-package is the same in both cases.
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2020-06-26T08:24:34Z kinope: no it is not
2020-06-26T08:24:50Z beach: Yes, then you need the package prefix for one of them.
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2020-06-26T08:28:40Z kinope: okay thanks, at least I know I'm on the right track now. I'll just keep paring things down till I find where I messed up.
2020-06-26T08:29:00Z beach: Sure.
2020-06-26T08:29:23Z beach: You can also try (apropos "name-of-generic-function") and you will see whether you have 2 symbols with that name.
2020-06-26T08:29:38Z beach: And if they are both FBOUND, you can inspect them.
2020-06-26T08:29:57Z beach: Then you can see how many methods each generic function has.
2020-06-26T08:30:32Z splittist: Another case where automatic creation of a generic function with a defmethod may have bitten
2020-06-26T08:30:56Z beach: I totally agree.  It is too bad that they removed the warning in SBCL.
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2020-06-26T08:31:20Z kinope: beach: I'll look into that
2020-06-26T08:31:37Z beach: It is also interesting how the attitude towards things like that has changed over time.
2020-06-26T08:32:11Z beach: In "... the CLOS perspective", they state that DEFMETHOD is the primary way of defining generic functions.
2020-06-26T08:32:34Z beach: And it used to be the case that SETQ silently defined an undefined variable.
2020-06-26T08:32:49Z beach: We now thin, those automatic mechanisms are a bad idea.
2020-06-26T08:32:55Z kinope: I believe I explicitly (defgeneric name (...)) in package one so perhaps that case doesn't apply to me.
2020-06-26T08:33:08Z beach: Correct.
2020-06-26T08:33:15Z beach: That was a general remark.
2020-06-26T08:33:22Z kinope: ah okay
2020-06-26T08:35:02Z beach: But it may apply to you in that, if you forgot the package prefix when you defined the method, a new generic function was silently created.
2020-06-26T08:35:31Z Theseus: web
2020-06-26T08:35:42Z kinope: I see
2020-06-26T08:36:08Z kinope slime-restarts-inferior-lisp
2020-06-26T08:36:20Z Theseus: bugger, thought I was searching...
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2020-06-26T09:21:26Z kinope: Upon inspecting the generic function I can confirm that the methods are all there and functioning as they should as I can call them from either package, and they work as intended. Thanks for helping me rule that out. I believe I've found the problem. The function that resides in the first package calls the incorrect method because I am supplying it
2020-06-26T09:21:27Z kinope: with an unintended value therefore there is no method that can handle it, so it returns nil.
2020-06-26T09:22:13Z no-defun-allowed: Wouldn't you have a method specialised on T for it to return?
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2020-06-26T09:22:17Z beach: Great!  Now you know a few more tools next time you get in trouble.
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2020-06-26T09:23:18Z beach: Right, if there is no method that can "handle" the value, you would get an error.
2020-06-26T09:23:42Z beach: I.e., you supply argument for which there is no applicable method.
2020-06-26T09:25:06Z kinope: hmm, if so, i wonder why there was no error too. Something else for me to ponder
2020-06-26T09:25:22Z beach: Inspect the methods of the generic function.
2020-06-26T09:25:34Z beach: You should get a list of specializers for each method.
2020-06-26T09:25:50Z beach: A specializer of T means that it accepts any value.
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2020-06-26T09:34:09Z kinope: will (call-next-method) return nil if there is no next method to call?
2020-06-26T09:34:31Z kinope: spec (call-next-method)
2020-06-26T09:34:42Z kinope: spec call-next-method
2020-06-26T09:34:51Z beach: No it does not.
2020-06-26T09:35:00Z beach: It signals a no-next-method error.
2020-06-26T09:35:22Z beach: Did you inspect the methods?
2020-06-26T09:36:30Z beach: Just type #'name-of-function at the SIME REPL and inspect the result by right clicking on the value.
2020-06-26T09:36:41Z beach: ... and selecting "inspect".
2020-06-26T09:38:07Z kinope: Yes there is no method that specialises on 'just' T. There is a method at the top that specialises on (class class T) though and I was providing it with a symbol for the second argument. But that method always returns a value that is non-nil
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2020-06-26T09:39:14Z beach: How many methods do you have?  Can you list the specializers for each one?
2020-06-26T09:39:21Z beach: And what arguments did you pass?
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2020-06-26T09:40:13Z beach: If you passed a symbol (other than NIL) as the second argument, only methods specialized to SYMBOL are applicable.
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2020-06-26T09:50:34Z kinope: there are twelve methods, it may take me a little while to compile that info. There are really only two types of specialisations one is a method that takes two class objects and a symbol (std-class std-class symbol)  and the other takes two class objects and and a eql specialised symbol, hope I'm making sense. If I call the method with the expected
2020-06-26T09:50:34Z kinope: arguments then it works. but I believe currently that the calling function that supplies the arguments is supplying a symbol as the second argument (class symbol symbol)
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2020-06-26T09:52:14Z kinope: When I use the inspector the methods are showing up as (class class T) or (class class (eql symbol))
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2020-06-26T09:55:38Z beach: It is hard to understand what you mean, because when you say (class class T), does it mean that `class' is the NAME of a class, or that it is the class named CLASS?  Same thing with std-class.
2020-06-26T09:56:35Z beach: And when you say "class object" do you mean "instance of a class" or a "class metaobject"?
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2020-06-26T09:57:06Z beach: I think you had better paste the result of your inspection and the arguments you are giving.
2020-06-26T09:58:51Z beach: The information you give is just not precise enough.
2020-06-26T09:58:56Z beach: At least for me.
2020-06-26T09:59:32Z kinope: Okay I thought it would be confusing if I put the real classes in. I am referring to an instance of a class. I don't know what a class metaobject is but I don't think it's that. The argument is a value returned by make-instance
2020-06-26T10:00:10Z kinope: I'll put some information together and hopefully it'll be a little clearer
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2020-06-26T10:07:08Z beach: kinope: I am off for my lunch break.  Either others can help you, or you need to wait until I come back.
2020-06-26T10:09:25Z kinope: Sure. I appreciate all the help you've given me, thanks.
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2020-06-26T10:18:10Z kinope: beach: If you don't mind having a look when you get back https://pastebin.com/raw/b4z11wMM
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2020-06-26T10:22:37Z kinope: G1, P3, C2 are classes that represent a particular state. (G)randparent (P)arent (C)hild. The states are 'nested', just as classes 'nest' by inheriting from the parent class.
2020-06-26T10:24:19Z kinope: The methods on the generic function 'event-handler' behaves differently depending on the state that is passed along with the state machine and event that is being dispatched to the machine.
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2020-06-26T10:25:53Z kinope: events propagate up the state hierarchy by calling (call-next-method) when they aren't handled in the current state.
2020-06-26T10:28:29Z kinope: It all works well when everything is in the same package, I'm just having difficulties when splitting it up into separate parts.
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2020-06-26T10:41:53Z kinope: I was wrong about a symbol being supplied to the generic function, I have verified that the state argument being passed is indeed an instance of the class as intended. Great, back to square one.
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2020-06-26T11:04:30Z kinope: Here are the files:
2020-06-26T11:04:46Z kinope: https://pastebin.com/zyYH5tNe
2020-06-26T11:04:58Z kinope: https://pastebin.com/EE6LfuyB
2020-06-26T11:05:10Z kinope: I am at a loss.
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2020-06-26T11:14:30Z SpaceIgor2075: Hi, I'm a newbie. What does p at the end of some functions mean, and why is it sometimes preceded by a -?
2020-06-26T11:14:47Z phoe: "predicate"
2020-06-26T11:14:54Z phoe: numberp == "is this object a number?"
2020-06-26T11:15:05Z phoe: if a single word precedes it, the - is skipped
2020-06-26T11:15:16Z phoe: so, numberp, but complex-number-p
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2020-06-26T12:10:05Z beach: kinope: Would you like to tell me what you tried, what you expected to happen, and what happened instead?
2020-06-26T12:10:10Z beach: All I see are static files.
2020-06-26T12:11:02Z beach: kinope: You really should use earmuffs on special variables.
2020-06-26T12:11:29Z beach: kinope: And you should have 3 semicolons for top-level comments.
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2020-06-26T12:11:58Z beach: clhs 2.4.4.2
2020-06-26T12:11:58Z specbot: Notes about Style for Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddb.htm
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2020-06-26T12:12:44Z beach: kinope: What is the package CLOSER-COMMON-LISP.
2020-06-26T12:12:45Z beach: ?
2020-06-26T12:13:28Z no-defun-allowed: My guess, without checking, is that it's a package that uses both CLOSER-MOP and CL.
2020-06-26T12:13:44Z beach: Ah, that might be.
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2020-06-26T12:14:15Z kinope: I couldn't import the class-precedence-list so I just used closer-common-lisp
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2020-06-26T12:14:44Z no-defun-allowed: And it is so, after loading closer-mop and looking at the package definition.
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2020-06-26T12:14:58Z beach: Thanks.
2020-06-26T12:15:32Z no-defun-allowed: c2mop:class-precedence-list would also work, but I guess you can't do much harm using a package that imports from CL and CLOSER-MOP, as the symbols of those packages aren't changing any time soon.
2020-06-26T12:16:26Z beach: kinope: You also shouldn't use ::.  You should export the symbols you want to be able to use from other packages.
2020-06-26T12:16:30Z kinope: about the earmuffs, I want to eventually refer to state classes by <state> but I left them out duting testing
2020-06-26T12:16:39Z kinope: during*
2020-06-26T12:17:25Z beach: You mean surrounding the state classes with < and >?
2020-06-26T12:17:35Z kinope: yes
2020-06-26T12:17:39Z beach: That would be very unconventional, just like leaving out the earmuffs.
2020-06-26T12:17:55Z beach: You would be speaking Common Lisp with a Dylan accent.
2020-06-26T12:18:56Z jackdaniel: some libraries do that though, so we could say that dylanism is a regional language of common lisp ,)
2020-06-26T12:18:59Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, it is very Dylan-esque (or some Scheme-with-object-system-esque, eg Swindle-esque) to wrap class names in <>, as they exist in a separate namespace, and so identifying class names is fairly straightforward.
2020-06-26T12:19:18Z kinope: I didn't realise
2020-06-26T12:19:23Z no-defun-allowed: (But Dylan is some Scheme-with-object-system-and-Pascal-syntax to some extent. :)
2020-06-26T12:19:27Z beach: kinope: Here is the thing:  You can use whatever style you want as long as you keep the code to yourself.  But then, when you get in trouble, like now, you need to expose the code to others.  So it is important to make life easier for the people trying to help you.  Then you need to follow conventions.
2020-06-26T12:20:18Z kinope: alright I can fix it up real quick if you like
2020-06-26T12:20:27Z beach: kinope: So again, what did you try, what happened, and what did you expect to happen?
2020-06-26T12:21:55Z kinope: What I expect to happen is: when I create a fresh instance of the machine class. I call transition to make a state transition to state g1...cont
2020-06-26T12:23:09Z kinope: the transition function should dispatch entry and initial events to the state, so that the machine ends up in the default state configuration of g1>p1>c1
2020-06-26T12:23:27Z kinope: currently it stops after transitioning to state g1
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2020-06-26T12:24:11Z kinope: I have verified that the arguments are what they should be, but when the event-handler is called nothing happens
2020-06-26T12:24:35Z kinope: in contrast to a similar implementation were everything is in the same package
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2020-06-26T12:26:29Z kinope: My initial assumption was that there was an issue with defining methods in different packages
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2020-06-26T12:28:37Z beach: How do you call TRANSITION?
2020-06-26T12:28:55Z kinope: https://pastebin.com/hLNjAywr
2020-06-26T12:29:28Z kinope: dont mind the output, just debug print statements
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2020-06-26T12:31:41Z kinope: the first two lines are the machine and state instances right before calling event-handler on line 62 and 66
2020-06-26T12:32:03Z kinope: of hsm.lisp
2020-06-26T12:33:49Z beach: Well, this is getting a bit complicated.  Your initial question seemed to suggest that you called a generic function with some arguments that made it return NIL, but it should have signaled an error.
2020-06-26T12:34:07Z beach: Now, I find myself involved in debugging your entire application.
2020-06-26T12:34:28Z kinope: Yeah sorry I tried to keep it simple at first
2020-06-26T12:35:12Z kinope: If its too much to ask, I totally understand
2020-06-26T12:35:36Z _death: may want to try https://gist.github.com/death/ba3220de533f5ccd2f64e246116d61bb
2020-06-26T12:36:09Z beach: Not only debugging your application, but also having to understand your terminology, since I am not familiar with the kind of state machine you are trying to create.  For example, I don't know the notation g1>p1>c1.
2020-06-26T12:36:32Z shka_: my protip here is to not use-package
2020-06-26T12:37:10Z beach: shka_: Where is use-package used?
2020-06-26T12:37:43Z shka_: (defpackage #:com.handsomebyte.hsm
2020-06-26T12:37:44Z shka_:   (:use #:closer-common-lisp))
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2020-06-26T12:38:39Z beach: shka_: It would have been normal to :use #:common-lisp, but kinope did not seem to want to put the package prefix for closer-mop.
2020-06-26T12:38:46Z beach: And I don't believe that is the problem here.
2020-06-26T12:38:49Z kinope: beach: sure, it's a lot to grasp. I certainly don't help things with my explanations, haha
2020-06-26T12:39:11Z shka_: beach: right
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2020-06-26T12:39:53Z shka_: kinope: is this a truly a state machine?
2020-06-26T12:40:12Z kinope: I can't say using closer-common-lisp was intentional it just worked
2020-06-26T12:40:33Z kinope: it is a implementation of a hierarchical state machine event processor
2020-06-26T12:40:56Z kinope: its not a typical finit state machine
2020-06-26T12:41:06Z shka_: ok, because transition looks like some kind of search
2020-06-26T12:41:34Z beach: kinope: It looks to me like find-entry-set and find-exit-set differ only in the final nreverse call, yes?
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2020-06-26T12:42:29Z kinope: it uses state 'nesting' to cut down on the amount of redundant code that would otherwise need to be written into the behavior of each state that needed that functionality
2020-06-26T12:42:37Z kinope: yes that is true beach
2020-06-26T12:43:14Z beach: kinope: And the first 4 lines of each seems to do exactly what MEMBER does, yes?
2020-06-26T12:43:40Z beach: Or, rather (CDR (MEMBER...))
2020-06-26T12:43:52Z shka_: kinope: i have a question
2020-06-26T12:44:10Z _death: also, you may want to check out statecharts
2020-06-26T12:44:45Z shka_: ok, never mind
2020-06-26T12:44:46Z kinope: exit-set and entry-set clean up the class-precedence list by discarding the classes up to and including the top state
2020-06-26T12:45:04Z kinope: yes shka_
2020-06-26T12:45:31Z shka_: kinope: my question is not relevant anymore
2020-06-26T12:45:32Z beach: kinope: But isn't one equal to (CDR (MEMBER ...)) and the other to (REVERSE (CDR (MEMBER...)))?
2020-06-26T12:45:33Z kinope: the transition function encodes some of thesemantics of the UML state machine specification
2020-06-26T12:48:21Z kinope: I need to read about  member real quick, I thought it only returned one value not a list
2020-06-26T12:48:50Z beach: It returns the tail of the list starting with the element being asked for.
2020-06-26T12:48:53Z shka_: kinope: it returns sublist starting with FIRST holding a searched elements
2020-06-26T12:49:02Z Xach: this makes it simple to search for NIL
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2020-06-26T12:49:37Z kinope: I see, then yes beach
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2020-06-26T12:49:56Z kinope: I guess I can simplify that then
2020-06-26T12:50:15Z shka_: well, i can't understand anything today, i have no idea what transition really does
2020-06-26T12:50:46Z beach: kinope: The other thing that makes it nearly impossible for me to follow the code is that one seems to have to know the domain since you are using names like lca and cpl.  To me they are just random strings.
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2020-06-26T12:51:37Z kinope: lca lowest common ancestor, cpl class precedence list. hold on a sec, I have some comments around here somewhere that should help...
2020-06-26T12:52:23Z beach: I think I need to let you try some more yourself or let some other people have a look, or I won't get anything done today myself.
2020-06-26T12:52:50Z kinope: No worries, thanks beach
2020-06-26T12:52:52Z kinope: thanks all
2020-06-26T12:53:07Z beach: Again, I thought I was debugging a case where NIL was incorrectly returned.
2020-06-26T12:53:21Z shka_: kinope: ok, so what is entry-set and exit-set?
2020-06-26T12:53:40Z shka_: you are trying to find a way to go from entry to exit?
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2020-06-26T12:55:40Z kinope: exit-set is the set of states that need to have exit actions called on them as they are being left while transitioning to another state, the same applies for entry-set but for entry actions on entry to each state up to the target state.
2020-06-26T12:56:19Z kinope: the algorithm works. Just not when I move some parts of the code to another package
2020-06-26T12:56:47Z shka_: what parts of the code and what happens then?
2020-06-26T12:57:02Z shka_: did you TRACE those functions?
2020-06-26T12:58:57Z kinope: I move some state class definitions and some methods pertaining to a test state machine out of the base package
2020-06-26T13:00:06Z kinope: so I create some methods that specialise on event and state to provide different functionality but when the transition function goes to call those methods, it just does nothing
2020-06-26T13:01:08Z kinope: sorry when event-handler inside transition function goes to call those methods*
2020-06-26T13:01:48Z shka_: kinope: so you put a (break) into those and nothing happens?
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2020-06-26T13:04:21Z shka_: (self hsm::machine)
2020-06-26T13:04:36Z shka_: SELF is not the best argument name in cl
2020-06-26T13:06:35Z kinope: I put a break in, just looking at the results now
2020-06-26T13:07:30Z shka_: kinope: i am at lost in the actions macro
2020-06-26T13:07:44Z shka_: are initial and exit global variables, dynamic variables or what?
2020-06-26T13:09:06Z kinope: it's just augments a case macro to add boilerplate that stops entry exit and initial events from propagating up the state hierarchy as they are only usefull for the current state
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2020-06-26T13:09:34Z kinope: everything else falls through to the next state up
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2020-06-26T13:09:54Z kinope: just symbols not variables
2020-06-26T13:10:06Z kinope: or rather keys for the case clauses
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2020-06-26T13:10:26Z kinope: how does one step through the debugger I've not done it before
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2020-06-26T13:10:51Z shka_: S eky
2020-06-26T13:10:54Z shka_: *key
2020-06-26T13:11:00Z shka_: regardless
2020-06-26T13:11:07Z shka_: it expands into something like this
2020-06-26T13:11:09Z shka_: (CASE EVENT ((ENTRY INITIAL EXIT) 'EVENT-IGNORED) (T (CALL-NEXT-METHOD)))
2020-06-26T13:11:37Z shka_: so i have no idea where ENTRY function is defined
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2020-06-26T13:12:13Z shka_: oh wait
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2020-06-26T13:12:17Z shka_: i am an idiot
2020-06-26T13:12:22Z shka_: sorry
2020-06-26T13:12:23Z kinope: entry is not a function it is an event a symbol passed to the state through a method of the event-handler
2020-06-26T13:12:24Z shka_: :-)
2020-06-26T13:12:29Z kinope: haha, oaky
2020-06-26T13:12:34Z kinope: okay*
2020-06-26T13:13:47Z shka_: ok, so you are not expecting to enter (entry initial exit) case?
2020-06-26T13:13:52Z shka_: in your example
2020-06-26T13:13:54Z shka_: that is
2020-06-26T13:15:00Z shka_: kinope: i have no idea what is your problem but i think i may have a good debugging tip
2020-06-26T13:15:06Z kinope: yes for most states.
2020-06-26T13:15:39Z shka_: so that's actions macro is a liability
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2020-06-26T13:15:51Z shka_: i would recommend doing the following
2020-06-26T13:16:36Z shka_: ((entry initial exit) 'event-ignored) replace with ((entry initial exit) (return-event-ignored value))
2020-06-26T13:16:46Z shka_: where return-event-ignored is a function
2020-06-26T13:16:55Z shka_: this way you will be able to trace this case
2020-06-26T13:17:02Z _death: (i) use the function I gave (ii) learn about keywords
2020-06-26T13:17:36Z shka_: ok, right!
2020-06-26T13:17:49Z shka_: _death: you are a brilliant man
2020-06-26T13:18:04Z kinope: keywords you say?
2020-06-26T13:18:12Z kinope: okay ill take a look
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2020-06-26T13:21:22Z kinope: there seem to be a few suspect symbols
2020-06-26T13:22:44Z Harag: I am going through a stage where I am trying two write more lispy code... one of my bad habbits is usingin dolist for all may list processing instead of using the various map functions already in lisp, just because I never invested the time to understand them
2020-06-26T13:23:17Z shka_: Harag: i mean, dolist is fine?
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2020-06-26T13:23:57Z Harag: but now I have a questions is calling a map function within the map function a normal pattern or am I missing some magic
2020-06-26T13:24:41Z shka_: Harag: it is not technically wrong, but it is a code smell indicator
2020-06-26T13:24:58Z Harag: shka_: yeah if you are not building result lists using variables in let or global surrounding the dolist
2020-06-26T13:25:15Z shka_: yes
2020-06-26T13:25:30Z shka_: anyway, maybe you can show example of what you were discussing?
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2020-06-26T13:26:40Z Harag: k
2020-06-26T13:26:47Z Harag: gonna take a moment
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2020-06-26T13:27:44Z shka_: Harag: in the meantime, https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf
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2020-06-26T13:27:52Z shka_: take a look at the 15 and 16 page
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2020-06-26T13:28:52Z shka_: i think this demonstrates your worries somewhat
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2020-06-26T13:32:10Z beach: Harag: I use LOOP most of the time.  It is able to solve most of the use cases.
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2020-06-26T13:34:26Z beach: Harag: Mapping functions tend to get complicated whenever you need to create a custom anonymous function using LAMBDA.  Plus, you often need a separate LET or LET* to introduce lexical variables, and you often need REVERSE or NREVERSE at the end.  With LOOP, you can handle those situations with WITH and COLLECT.
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2020-06-26T13:41:02Z Harag: beach: I have a natural aversion to LOOP... I it nearly as much as I hate peas and regx
2020-06-26T13:41:16Z Harag: +hate
2020-06-26T13:42:37Z _death feels a Riesback coming on
2020-06-26T13:43:05Z Harag: beach: and my hate for loop comes from battling to use break's to see what it is doing or not doing for me ... the latter mostly
2020-06-26T13:46:53Z beach: It is very sad that you have decided to reject such a good tool.  Your code is going to suffer in readability.
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2020-06-26T13:48:52Z Harag: shka_: will have a look at the that lisp style, thing thanx. I am actually working through On Lisp again, it was the first lisp book I got my hands on 10 years ago and having not even gotten through the first chapter I started feeling a bit ashamed of my code, there is so much of the basic stuff in common lisp I never bothered learning... which means I have been dragging some very bad habits from my non functional days along for all
2020-06-26T13:48:52Z Harag: these years
2020-06-26T13:49:27Z phoe: Harag: using BREAK inside LOOP? what do you mean?
2020-06-26T13:49:49Z Harag: phoe: primitive debug
2020-06-26T13:51:17Z shka_: Harag: that style guide is an absolute classic, every programmer should read it
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2020-06-26T13:51:22Z shka_: not even lisp programmer
2020-06-26T13:51:31Z shka_: every programmer
2020-06-26T13:51:47Z beach: Harag: You are going to hate SICL.
2020-06-26T13:53:18Z Harag: beach: I have been meaning to google SICL the last week or so because I ran into references to it all over the places I have been digging on the net lately but have not gotten around to it
2020-06-26T13:53:30Z beach: git grep "(loop" | wc -l gives 4264
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2020-06-26T13:58:04Z travv0: loop is easily one of my favorite parts of CL
2020-06-26T13:59:31Z kinope: _death: I could kiss you!
2020-06-26T14:00:12Z kinope: _death: I'm not 100% on how or why it works but it does!
2020-06-26T14:01:44Z kinope: keywords to the rescue
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2020-06-26T14:04:51Z Harag: shka_: https://pastebin.com/p6VadAMY
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2020-06-26T14:10:41Z Harag: beach: sbcl is not much better grepping loop gives 2846
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2020-06-26T14:11:31Z beach: But SBCL is complete.  Not so with SICL. :)
2020-06-26T14:11:46Z _death: kinope: in Lisp, if something is named by a symbol, it is often important to use the same symbol to reference it.. symbols are full-fledged objects with names.. they can belong to packages, which contain symbols (and not functions, classes, etc.).. the reader is responsible for resolving (and sometimes creating) the textual sequences to symbols.. you need to understand these issues
2020-06-26T14:12:56Z beach: What was the problem?
2020-06-26T14:13:34Z kinope: so i thought i was sending 'entry but i was sending 'hsm::entry?
2020-06-26T14:13:52Z beach: I see.
2020-06-26T14:14:01Z kinope: to a method that was expecting 'example::entry
2020-06-26T14:15:14Z _death: kinope: for example, if you use an EQL specializer, then you'd expect (eql the-specializer-object the-passed-object) => true
2020-06-26T14:15:39Z _death: kinope: and if they're not the same symbols, (eql 'example::entry 'hsm::entry) => false
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2020-06-26T14:16:57Z kinope: Ahh, well that is very nice to know!
2020-06-26T14:17:30Z kinope: I'll try to remember that
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2020-06-26T14:19:19Z kinope: Apologies for creating a fuss over something that seems very elementary
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2020-06-26T14:20:09Z kinope: How do keywords work do they exist in a different namespace or something
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2020-06-26T14:20:48Z shka_: kinope: you can think about them as belonging to a separate package called keyword
2020-06-26T14:21:00Z p_l: kinope: details of implementation vary, but they all exist in package called KEYWORD
2020-06-26T14:21:10Z _death: keywords are ordinary symbols that reside in the package named "KEYWORD".. this package is almost an ordinary package, except that when a symbol is interned there, it is automatically exported and made a constant whose value is itself.. the reader also knows :foo is a shortcut for keyword:foo
2020-06-26T14:22:42Z kinope: I see
2020-06-26T14:23:38Z _death: when you have a fixed (i.e. not something a user should be able to extend) set of symbols that should be easily accessible, it often makes sense to use keywords
2020-06-26T14:23:56Z kinope: Well that was a huge headache, but a good lesson. I don't think I'll forget it.
2020-06-26T14:24:15Z kinope: okay
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2020-06-26T14:25:06Z kinope: thanks _death
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2020-06-26T14:40:51Z phoe: beach: I must move the fourth Online Lisp Meeting to another day since I have a calendar conflict that just appeared
2020-06-26T14:40:59Z phoe: which day will be good for you?
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2020-06-26T14:42:30Z Josh_2: afternoon
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2020-06-26T14:44:33Z phoe: shka_: if you feel like sending something in as well, that's an occasion
2020-06-26T14:47:29Z beach: phoe: Not a problem for me.
2020-06-26T14:47:32Z beach: Let me check...
2020-06-26T14:48:25Z beach: phoe: I seem to be free all next week.
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2020-06-26T14:59:51Z phoe: beach: I can move it a week forward then.
2020-06-26T15:00:11Z beach: Ouch, are you busy all next week?
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2020-06-26T15:00:56Z beach: The week after that is Didier Verna's defense, so I am more likely to have to practice video connections etc.
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2020-06-26T15:01:59Z beach: phoe: What the hell.  I think Monday will be fine.
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2020-06-26T15:24:49Z shka_: phoe: next time :-)
2020-06-26T15:25:03Z shka_: i won't have time during the weekend
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2020-06-26T15:31:50Z phoe: shka_: I mean, I need to move it a week forward
2020-06-26T15:31:55Z phoe: so you'll have a week more
2020-06-26T15:32:00Z phoe: beach: OK - thanks
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2020-06-26T15:36:02Z _death: is there a page with a list of the online meetings and links to the videos?
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2020-06-26T15:38:17Z phoe: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/online-lisp-meets/
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2020-06-26T15:38:43Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCymtXMj1M7cKiV9TKLoTtEg
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2020-06-26T15:39:49Z _death goes to gwene
2020-06-26T15:39:55Z _death: er, gmane
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2020-06-26T15:40:53Z shka_: phoe: ah, ok, this makes everything different, will work on something next week
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2020-06-26T15:46:31Z beach: phoe: So Monday July 6, sometime in the afternoon?
2020-06-26T15:47:17Z phoe: beach: how much in the afternoon?
2020-06-26T15:47:37Z beach: Up to you.  No earlier than 13:00.
2020-06-26T15:47:51Z beach: But if you want the US-of-Asians to be awake, maybe a bit later.
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2020-06-26T15:52:08Z jcowan: Does anyone know of a critique of the MOP?  Not a review of AMOP, but a retrospective saying "Here's what could and should have been done better."
2020-06-26T15:53:35Z beach: There are bits and pieces.  The paper by Costanza on make-method-lambda is one.  But the, I critique that paper in mine. :)
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2020-06-26T15:54:25Z beach: You also have the paper by Verna on method combinators.  Again, my paper on method combinations essentially makes his critique invalid.
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2020-06-26T15:55:11Z jcowan: Thanks.  BTW, is there an index somewhere to the online PDFs of your papers?  You occasionally give an URL to one.
2020-06-26T15:55:35Z jcowan: Having to build them from Github is annoying.
2020-06-26T15:56:04Z Bike: it's code rather than prose, but closer-mop to some extent consists of fixups. costanza has ideas of how things ought to be
2020-06-26T15:56:13Z beach: There is no such index.  In a week moment, many months ago, I promised to create such a thing, but then never did.
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2020-06-26T15:56:50Z beach: Maybe I should pay someone to do that.
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2020-06-26T15:57:58Z Bike: most of MOP isn't actually used that much, so people haven't bothered, i'd say
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2020-06-26T16:09:25Z beach: Plus, it's pretty good as it is.  Amazing in many respects, in fact.
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2020-06-26T16:12:31Z jcowan: Indeed.  The MOP and generic functions in particular are one of the few things that mainstream non-Lisp languages don't (yet) have.  (Julia has GFs, but the author is a Lisp weenie.)
2020-06-26T16:13:58Z Bike: https://arxiv.org/abs/1403.2765 there's also this paper on an extension
2020-06-26T16:14:05Z beach: Sure, generic functions are great, but the MOP is also the entire circular definition, and the exposure of the internal mechanisms, while the resulting performance is kept reasonable.
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2020-06-26T16:14:48Z beach: Generic functions by themselves, say in a static language, would be a piece of cake to design.
2020-06-26T16:14:51Z Bike: i could also rattle off some things myself, but it wouldn't be anything like comprehensive or particularly coherent
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2020-06-26T16:19:25Z beach: jcowan: What is the reason for your question?
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2020-06-26T16:20:01Z jcowan: Oh, I am always interested in why as much as how, in history as much as the present.
2020-06-26T16:20:11Z beach: I see.
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2020-06-26T16:22:18Z Xach: the BIG5 archive on saildart is a fascinating view into the history of CL.
2020-06-26T16:22:35Z Xach: peter seibel's talk at ILS 2010 goes over bits of it, but it's also interesting to read directly.
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2020-06-26T16:23:38Z Xach: > QUINQUEVIRATE: This is the 5 of us. It excludes Squires and Mathis. It is archived someplace private.
2020-06-26T16:23:42Z Xach: > In it we can discuss such issues as: Do we trust Mathis to not blow it with the French? Is Fateman a total loser? How do we jettison Balzer?
2020-06-26T16:23:59Z Xach: ILC, not ILS
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2020-06-26T16:41:20Z _death: P.MSG :/
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2020-06-26T16:59:40Z Xach: _death: ha! "a year hence"
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2020-06-26T17:00:27Z _death: thanks for reminding me of these files btw.. I'm going to do to them what I did so the cl-su-ai archive.. make into mbox files for easy reading using Gnus
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2020-06-26T17:16:58Z jcowan: Is it right to say that in an "an error is signaled" situation, all you can count on is (a) the procedure will not return normally and (b) only a very generic handler-bind or handler-case clause will be able to intercept it (but not necessarily understand it)?  An example would be calling FILE-POSITION with an out of range position.
2020-06-26T17:17:33Z phoe: do you mean the standard meaning of "an error is signaled"?
2020-06-26T17:18:03Z phoe: sometimes the specification says "an error of type FOO is signaled", that narrows the possible type a little bit
2020-06-26T17:18:10Z phoe: but otherwise, tough luck
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2020-06-26T17:20:54Z jcowan: 1.4.2 says if the error is not specified it is of type ERROR, but that isn't very informative.  I notice that this expression appears in CLOS sections much more than other sections.
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2020-06-26T17:21:35Z jcowan: or perhaps in late sectiohs generally: it's in UPGRADED-*-ARRAY-TYPE too
2020-06-26T17:27:00Z Bike: if you know about 1.4.2 i'm not sure what else you think could happen
2020-06-26T17:27:24Z Bike: an error of type ERROR is signaled, so yes, portably you can use handler-bind/case, and portably you can't really get any information about that error
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2020-06-26T17:30:10Z jcowan: I wanted to make sure that there was nothing else guaranteed.
2020-06-26T17:31:08Z Bike: shouldn't be, no
2020-06-26T17:31:23Z _death: I've put up gnus-friendly versions of cl-su-ai/ll1-discuss archives on github https://github.com/death/gnus-friendly-archives .. I plan to add saildart "soon"
2020-06-26T17:31:33Z Bike: a lot of errors in CL are underspecified, i'd say
2020-06-26T17:31:49Z jcowan: I am faced with the claim that "an error is signaled" is bad spec writing because of this inability to do very much about it.  I think, however, that it is useful in cases where the programmer has simply made a mistake and there is nothing the program can do about it (with the exception of a server, say, where even such errors should be caught and the server carries on).
2020-06-26T17:32:50Z Bike: yeah that's kind of the thing, all that "error of type ERROR" stuff is basically hopeless situations
2020-06-26T17:33:01Z Bike: more specific error types could be helpful, but wouldn't constitute recovery
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2020-06-26T17:41:46Z shka_: jcowan: i think that at least API functions should raise well defined errors
2020-06-26T17:44:19Z shka_: reasoning being, that actually it is not always possible to predict if error signaled from library will be actually useful in application
2020-06-26T17:44:30Z jcowan: It seems over-finicky.  For example, Scheme lets you pass to eval a backwards compatibility environment that knows only about the identifiers in earlier versions of the standard.  If, however, you pass a standard version number not known to the implementation, "an error is signaled".  It isn't clear that "an error of type UNKNOWN-BACKWARDS-COMPAT-ENVIRONMENT is signaled" is actually any better.
2020-06-26T17:44:48Z shka_: and also it is not possible to know that it won't be useful in a specific case
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2020-06-26T17:45:22Z jcowan: That way lies JavaScript or HTML5, where the spec is essentially an implementation in prose.
2020-06-26T17:45:54Z shka_: jcowan: however, consider how many cases where "an error is signaled" there could be
2020-06-26T17:46:27Z shka_: in such case, in a complex piece of software, how those this message informs you what went wrong?
2020-06-26T17:46:49Z shka_: that's imho the problem
2020-06-26T17:47:01Z Bike: i don't think specifying an error type would be that severe a change
2020-06-26T17:47:04Z jcowan: Any reasonable developer's debugger will provide a backtrace
2020-06-26T17:48:05Z shka_: yes, backtrace is helpful, but so is a precise error with a relevant documentation explaining conditions needed for it to be emitted
2020-06-26T17:48:07Z jcowan: There are 41 instances of the phrase in the CLHS, not counting defining and explanatory instances
2020-06-26T17:48:39Z jcowan: shka_: I hold that to be a quality of implementation issue.  A standard is a contract between implementer and user.
2020-06-26T17:49:16Z jcowan: If it isn't at a reasonable balance point, it constrains the implementor one way or blocks reasonable portability the other way.
2020-06-26T17:49:26Z shka_: imho simple-error is fine in cases which indicate internal error (that is: this should be impossible to happen)
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2020-06-26T17:49:41Z shka_: otherwise, a more specific error is generally more useful
2020-06-26T17:49:55Z jcowan: Don't you want it to be a subclass SIMPLE-INTERNAL-ERROR?  :-)
2020-06-26T17:49:56Z shka_: usefulness may vary between a specific cases
2020-06-26T17:50:26Z shka_: is there a such symbol in CL?
2020-06-26T17:50:31Z Bike: no.
2020-06-26T17:50:39Z jcowan: No, but it could be in an implementation-specific package
2020-06-26T17:50:55Z shka_: nah, it is better to have portable code
2020-06-26T17:51:44Z Bike: huh, weird little discrepancies. if the function-name for defgeneric names an ordinary function etc, a program-error is signaled. but for defmethod it just specifies error
2020-06-26T17:52:04Z shka_: uh, how ugly
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2020-06-26T17:54:58Z shka_: this seriously looks like an omission
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2020-06-26T17:55:11Z shka_: but how it could happen?
2020-06-26T17:55:12Z Bike: probably, but it's pretty minor
2020-06-26T17:55:14Z jcowan: Let me quote Will Clinger, who says it much better than I:
2020-06-26T17:55:21Z Bike: defmethod is also probably not going to be deep in a backtrace
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2020-06-26T17:55:53Z jcowan: Portability and interoperability are two different things, and often come into conflict with each other. When programming languages are specified, portability can be increased (and interoperability diminished) by inventing some specific semantics for all corner cases while forbidding extensions to standard syntax and procedures. Interoperability can be increased (and portability diminished) by leaving unimportant corner
2020-06-26T17:55:53Z jcowan: cases unspecified while allowing implementations to generalize syntax and semantics in ways that simplify interoperation with other standards and components.
2020-06-26T17:55:57Z shka_: yeah, practical consequences are insignificant, but it is funny
2020-06-26T17:56:04Z joels: Good evening all
2020-06-26T17:56:25Z jcowan: teh whole paper: http://andykeep.com/SchemeWorkshop2015/papers/sfpw1-2015-clinger.pdf
2020-06-26T17:56:26Z shka_: joels: hi
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2020-06-26T17:57:14Z shka_: jcowan: i suspect that defining a complete new language is different then writing a more mundane piece of software :-)
2020-06-26T17:57:27Z jcowan: Bike: it occurs to me that you might have a handler one of whose restarts is "Convert this function to a generic function whose default method is this function."
2020-06-26T17:57:45Z jcowan: Every Lisp macro defines a new language at least in principle.
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2020-06-26T17:57:54Z Bike: that would be a little exotic, but maybe
2020-06-26T17:58:16Z jcowan: the lines between program, DSL, and language are vague and penetrable.
2020-06-26T17:58:33Z phoe: jcowan: what happens to the old function?
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2020-06-26T17:58:49Z phoe: does it become a method with all T specializers?
2020-06-26T17:58:51Z shka_: jcowan: well, in principle yes, in practice, if function is supposed to work on integers emit type-error if non-integer was passed :P
2020-06-26T17:58:55Z jcowan: phoe: Yes
2020-06-26T17:59:13Z Bike: "default method" is actually defined to mean that. jcowan surfing that glossary
2020-06-26T17:59:29Z jcowan: The spec-writer's delight.
2020-06-26T18:00:00Z jcowan: That's exactly what I'd want.  "Oops, this function should really be generic.  Make it so."
2020-06-26T18:00:26Z Bike: yeah, maybe. sometimes it's just a mistake though
2020-06-26T18:00:33Z Bike: (but since it's an error, w hatever, take your pick)
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2020-06-26T18:03:19Z Bike: it might make sense to specify better errors at least where active detection is the only realistic implementation strategy... e.g. for invalid keyword arguments
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2020-06-26T18:23:56Z jcowan: Bike: Well, yes, that would be another restart
2020-06-26T18:24:14Z jcowan is not used to thinking in restarts yet
2020-06-26T18:24:33Z Bike: would just be the abort restart really
2020-06-26T18:24:54Z jcowan: Yes
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2020-06-26T19:15:38Z White_Flame: are there tools or implementations that do reporting of time spent waiting on cache misses in CL?
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2020-06-26T19:27:57Z Bike: could you use perf? you can attach it to a running process
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2020-06-26T19:38:12Z White_Flame: Bike: hmm, wasn't aware of that feature
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2020-06-26T21:29:32Z jasom: Anyone know how to tell if inline-c is available on ecl?  Is there a feature flag I can test?
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2020-06-26T21:58:12Z edgar-rft: jasom: there's a #ecl channel if nobody knows here
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2020-06-26T22:46:58Z Bike: jasom: you mean c-inline? based on the manual it should be pretty much always, although maybe only in compile-file https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/Foreign-Function-Interface.html#Two-kinds-of-FFI
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2020-06-26T22:47:43Z Bike: "Note also that ffi:c-inline cannot be used in interpreted or bytecompiled code! Such usage will signal an error. "
2020-06-26T22:48:12Z jasom: Bike: I suppose I can see what error is signaled and use that to detect it.
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2020-06-26T22:48:31Z jasom: When ECL is built for environments without a C compiler they use the bytecompiler which doesn't allow it.
2020-06-26T22:48:55Z jasom: IIRC android would be one example
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2020-06-27T03:27:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-27T03:36:01Z kinope: Afternoon :)
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2020-06-27T05:02:24Z kinope^: The reason my code didn't run as intended yesterday was because I mistakenly assumed that a symbol that was being passed to a method was free, as if it didn't belong to any package but also all packages simultaneously. I have read some of the spec now, so am I correct in saying that a symbol will always be interned in one or more packages? A symbol
2020-06-27T05:02:25Z kinope^: cannot be 'free' since if it is mapped to no packages then it is considered uninterned. I've internalised the use of (in-package ...) without realising that it is just a convenience function so that symbols may be referrenced by name without the package prefix. I think I may resist the urge to use (in-package ...) until I have a better appreciation
2020-06-27T05:02:25Z kinope^: of the rules, what do you think? So, when a method is created that 'eql' specialises(?) on a symbol, the package of the symbol used in the definition becomes a part of the test because the symbol is not 'free', the actual symbol complete with package prefix is expected to be supplied to the method. If one were to only provide a symbol name then the
2020-06-27T05:02:26Z kinope^: reader would fill in the blank by prefixing it with the current package, therefore creating unintended results if the generic function was called from another package under the same conditions.
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2020-06-27T05:05:57Z White_Flame: a "free" symbol is typically denoted by #:NAME
2020-06-27T05:06:02Z White_Flame: and has no package
2020-06-27T05:06:12Z White_Flame: they're typically called 'gensym's after the function often used to create them
2020-06-27T05:07:22Z White_Flame: from the reader input, if you do (list '#:foo '#:foo), the 2 symbols generated will not be EQ, as they're not interned
2020-06-27T05:08:08Z White_Flame: macros often create placeholder symbols for use in (LET ((,var ,expr)) ...), and use GENSYM for the purpose of making them unique
2020-06-27T05:08:30Z kinope^: Okay, so you couldn't use them in an eql specialiser as they will not match?
2020-06-27T05:08:40Z White_Flame: unless you pass them around by value, correct
2020-06-27T05:09:05Z White_Flame: eg (defvar *my-symbol* (gensym))
2020-06-27T05:09:19Z White_Flame: but that can easily go pear-shaped if you're not careful
2020-06-27T05:09:56Z White_Flame: and when comparing symbols, EQL is the same as EQ.  It must be the same symbol object instance.
2020-06-27T05:10:06Z White_Flame: regardless of package or anything else
2020-06-27T05:10:15Z kinope^: I'll stay away from doing that then, things always seem to go pear-shaped atm, haha
2020-06-27T05:10:53Z White_Flame: packages just generally ensure that the same name (within that reader context) always yields the same symbol object
2020-06-27T05:11:14Z White_Flame: literally a symbol table
2020-06-27T05:11:54Z kinope^: I'm aware of the different grades of equality predicates just not the specifics, I'll try to remember that.
2020-06-27T05:12:46Z kinope^: okay thanks
2020-06-27T05:15:54Z kinope^: _death fixed me up with using keywords as a good way to refer to the same symbol across package boundaries, but if I knew what i was doing it seems like if I just specified the symbol with the correct prefix then that would have worked too.
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2020-06-27T05:17:23Z White_Flame: kinope^: correct, and/or had the proper import/use clauses set up in your package
2020-06-27T05:17:31Z White_Flame: *defpackage
2020-06-27T05:20:07Z kinope^: I should get more familiar with defpackage and the basics of lisp, It would have saved me a real headache.
2020-06-27T05:20:20Z kinope^: common lisp*
2020-06-27T05:23:22Z aeth: Keywords are usually used for this sort of thing, I think.
2020-06-27T05:24:23Z kinope^: Sure, just making sure I understand the consequences fully
2020-06-27T05:24:44Z aeth: (defpackage #:foo) (intern "+" :foo) (string= 'cl:+ foo::'+) => T
2020-06-27T05:24:58Z aeth: So you could use string= to make the package not matter with a symbol, but then you're doing a string comparison
2020-06-27T05:25:28Z aeth: I wonder if this is what macros like LOOP tend to use internally
2020-06-27T05:26:12Z White_Flame: aeth: the core of the usage seems to be EQL specializers on symbols in method slots
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2020-06-27T05:28:06Z aeth: ah, OK
2020-06-27T05:28:58Z aeth: I think I remember skimming over that conversation a while back now
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2020-06-27T06:32:48Z sveit: does anybody know if it is possible in SBCL to view foreign memory (given a pointer to it in the FFI) as an array (the reverse is possible by pinning the array)?
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2020-06-27T06:54:43Z phoe: sveit: AFAIK nope.
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2020-06-27T07:02:48Z pi____: anyone using asdf:make to build their project ? How long it will take to build simple project on your machine's configuration ? On my humble 700 MHZ raspberry pi it is taking time to build hello-world project.
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2020-06-27T07:03:50Z pi____: i can see it is compiling file .quicklisp/dist.... path. Or it is first time thing only ?
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2020-06-27T09:02:50Z no-defun-allowed: You should expect a 20x or so slowdown on the Raspberry Pi (2?)
2020-06-27T09:04:55Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, it'll only have to compile files once after they're changed.
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2020-06-27T09:09:57Z kinope^: Sounds like the Raspberry Pi B model I have one its 700MHz but I read somewhere that real world performance puts it closer to 300MHz. Dug it out the other day to put a Lisp on it for a makeshift dev environment until I realised it moves about as quick as a sloth. and is only single core.
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2020-06-27T09:10:53Z no-defun-allowed: That makes no sense, because there are many Raspberry Pi B models (one for every "generation", bar the Zero), and "it goes slower" isn't quantifiable using a clock frequency.
2020-06-27T09:12:09Z no-defun-allowed: The 1B? Granted, SBCL on 32-bit ARM is only single threaded, and then ASDF compilation is usually serial.
2020-06-27T09:12:31Z White_Flame: and of course file i/o will be abysmally slow, too
2020-06-27T09:13:45Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, the (externally powered) external hard drive I have is about 3x faster than the SD card I have; but it is a relatively slow SD card.
2020-06-27T09:13:47Z kinope^: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi This is where I read it. Scroll down to the performace section
2020-06-27T09:14:16Z no-defun-allowed: "On the CPU level the performance is similar to a 300 MHz Pentium II of 1997–99"?
2020-06-27T09:15:07Z kinope^: Yeah 1B, I was working on a lock free queue at the time. I wouldn't have been able to truly test the data structure with only one thread of execution
2020-06-27T09:15:17Z no-defun-allowed: That is also not a very precise metric.
2020-06-27T09:15:23Z kinope^: Apparently so
2020-06-27T09:15:38Z no-defun-allowed: Do you have another computer to write programs on?
2020-06-27T09:16:46Z kinope^: I brushed the dust of my old laptop and am using it now, works just fine although it's chaind to the desk as the battery is shot
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2020-06-27T09:24:22Z kinope^: I think the MHz thing is because the graphics processor and the cpu are stacked together 700Mhz is the clock cycle of the SOC. I imagine the cpu takes more clock cycles to perform an operation compared to other designs(?) GHz and MHz aren't really much better as a metric when comparing older cpu designs to newer ones. It's like an apples to oranges
2020-06-27T09:24:22Z kinope^: comparison.
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2020-06-27T09:25:33Z White_Flame: the arm & the gpu are separate systems on those chips
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2020-06-27T09:27:12Z kinope^: I'm going to be the first to admit that I'm not qualified to have an opinion on these matters.
2020-06-27T09:28:08Z no-defun-allowed: The "MHz thing" is because the two have vastly different designs and execution, so the author estimated that the Raspberry Pi could accomplish as much in 700 cycles as a Pentium 2 could in 300.
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2020-06-27T09:33:04Z kinope^: It sounds like the pi chip does the same amount of work in the same time but with far more cycles, what is it spending those cycles on?
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2020-06-27T09:34:32Z White_Flame: pentiums were long doing out-of-order execution and such then, the arm core is probably still in-order
2020-06-27T09:34:44Z no-defun-allowed: Possibly in having a shorter pipeline, and thus being able to do fewer steps in executing an instruction in parallel.
2020-06-27T09:36:56Z kinope^: ah
2020-06-27T09:37:13Z no-defun-allowed: Either way, you sort of have the problem of giving the processor as much work to do as possible per cycle. If I really wanted to, I could fab a processor that did noting every cycle, and it wouldn't be "spending" those cycles on anything.
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2020-06-27T09:39:39Z kinope^: So I guess that MHz really isn't a good indication of the true work done, not that you said so, I'm just talking out loud. I think I'm getting a little off topic now.
2020-06-27T09:39:49Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
2020-06-27T09:40:19Z phoe: minion: memo for shka: If you're able to give me an abstract today, I'll be able to announce it during today's mail that moves the Lisp meeting
2020-06-27T09:40:20Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell shka when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-06-27T10:37:04Z no-defun-allowed: Is there a declaration I can use to provide types for the return values of a generic function? SBCL appears to clobber any FTYPE proclamations before or after a DEFGENERIC form with its own, at the least.
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2020-06-27T10:49:58Z _death: you can have a declare field in the defgeneric
2020-06-27T10:53:16Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, but none seem to pertain to declaring the return type(s) of the generic function.
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2020-06-27T10:53:26Z no-defun-allowed: none→no allowed declarations
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2020-06-27T10:55:49Z _death: right.. when they worked on the standard there was also a VALUES declaration.. so there was code declaring argument types using TYPE and return value types using VALUES
2020-06-27T10:57:01Z _death: at some point VALUES got removed (I need to find discussion, if any..) but maybe your implementation has something
2020-06-27T10:57:43Z _death: well, the VALUES declaration only declared the number of return values
2020-06-27T10:57:44Z no-defun-allowed: First thing that comes to mind is if (locally (declare (values <type>)) <form>) would be (the <type> <form>), and/or if it would make sense at all.
2020-06-27T10:57:50Z no-defun-allowed: Oh.
2020-06-27T10:58:23Z _death: wait, no.. it was value types.. morning :/
2020-06-27T11:01:06Z _death: sbcl seems to only handle optimize
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2020-06-27T11:03:30Z _death: I wonder why it doesn't handle TYPE at least
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2020-06-27T11:17:29Z _death: I guess type declarations for defgeneric may seem useful at one point in time and too constraining at a later point.. so not much effort went to preserve them
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2020-06-27T11:18:33Z no-defun-allowed: Fair enough.
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2020-06-27T11:28:54Z _death: cmucl has https://cmucl.org/docs/cmu-user/cmu-user.html#The-Values-Declaration
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2020-06-27T11:33:20Z _death: sbcl also supports values declarations, it seems.. but not in defgeneric
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2020-06-27T11:34:59Z no-defun-allowed: Oh well.
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2020-06-27T14:08:13Z Josh_2: Afternoon
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2020-06-27T14:10:35Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-06-27T14:15:18Z Josh_2: How are things with you beach ?
2020-06-27T14:16:06Z beach: Excellent, thank you.  This morning I found a better technique for FIND-SYMBOL in the CL package. You?
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2020-06-27T14:29:41Z Josh_2: Yes I am good thanks. Just working on a few projects like ya do
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2020-06-27T18:06:47Z theseb: If a lisp compiler has an *intermediate format*...doesn't that mean you actually have TWO compilers?....you need 1st compiler to go from source -> intermediate form....and you need 2nd compiler to go from intermediate form to assembly/machine code yes?
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2020-06-27T18:09:33Z TwoNotes: If the intermediate format is internal to the compiler, it does not matter.  I have developed compilers, and various intermediate steps are not uncommon.
2020-06-27T18:11:32Z beach: theseb: There can be several different intermediate formats, each one lending itself to a particular set of transformations.  You may call each STEP a compiler if you like, but typically, there is not much syntax and semantic analysis in the intermediate steps, since the compiler writer has complete control of what is generated during previous steps.
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2020-06-27T18:11:41Z theseb: In case you wondering why i care... well i'm *writing* a compiler....so i was trying to ask a guru for confirmation that i'm not crazy when i noticed i really need 2 compilers! ;)
2020-06-27T18:12:16Z theseb: beach: good point
2020-06-27T18:12:27Z theseb: beach: so those follow on extra "compilers" won't be so hard to write
2020-06-27T18:12:41Z theseb: i like that
2020-06-27T18:13:27Z beach: theseb: For example, SICL uses a Cleavir-based compiler.  It transforms the text to a Concrete Syntax Tree (CST), then the CST to an Abstract Syntax Tree (AST), then to High-level Intermediate Representation (HIR) then to Medium-level Intermediate Representation (MIR) then to Low-level Intermediate Representation then to "assembly" in the form of Cluster code, then to machine code.
2020-06-27T18:14:12Z beach: theseb: You can write a one-pass compiler if you like, but it won't produce very good code.
2020-06-27T18:15:49Z beach: theseb: Maybe you should read up on compiler design before you start writing a compiler?
2020-06-27T18:16:33Z theseb: beach: i have some.....i never heard of a CST...interesting..i know about ASTs
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2020-06-27T18:17:04Z beach: I recommend the book by Muchnick.
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2020-06-27T18:17:13Z theseb: beach: i don't how you learned about compilers...what about this...read a little...code a little...IRC a little....rinse and repeat
2020-06-27T18:17:21Z TwoNotes: Lexical scan, macro processing, syntax, parse-tree, code-motion-optimizations, register allocation, parallelism, code genration, peephole optimizer.  LOTS of steps in a modern compiler
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2020-06-27T18:17:30Z theseb: beach: what i want to avoid is "read for 5 years and not code anything" this time
2020-06-27T18:18:05Z beach: theseb: Sure, that's fine.  But you should probably spend a week skimming the table of contents of a few books.
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2020-06-27T18:21:09Z beach: theseb: The terminology varies a bit.  In Cleavir and SICL, a CST is Common Lisp forms wrapped in standard objects for source tracking.  The AST is the result of "minimal compilation" as defied by the standard.  HIR/MIR/LIR are traditional instruction graphs at different levels.  Cluster assembly is a linear sequence of standard objects representing instructions.
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2020-06-27T18:22:05Z beach: Anyway, I'm off to spend time with my (admittedly small) family.  Good luck.
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2020-06-27T18:27:08Z aeth: theseb: Two sounds pretty low, you can have as many as you want, as beach said.
2020-06-27T18:27:25Z theseb: right
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2020-06-27T18:28:37Z aeth: Two might actually be the minimum for a modernish compiler.
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2020-06-27T18:44:21Z aeth: _death: SBCL has VALUES, but it's hard to get right. A function FOO that takes nothing in and returns e.g. (values 1 2) might have a DECLAIM like this: (declaim (ftype (function () (values integer integer &optional)) foo))
2020-06-27T18:44:39Z aeth: The &optional is required or else it will permit extra return values at the end.
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2020-06-27T18:46:20Z aeth: Declaring the return types is probably the biggest conciseness gain for using a macro like my DEFINE-FUNCTION (unfortunately, not quite ready for general use) vs. writing plain CL.
2020-06-27T18:46:26Z Bike: based on sbcl's somewhat bizarre interpretation of the standard
2020-06-27T18:46:36Z phoe: bizarre, what do you mean?
2020-06-27T18:46:48Z aeth: Compare (define-function (foobar :return (integer integer)) () (values 1 2)) with (declaim (ftype (function () (values integer integer &optional)) foobar)) (defun foobar () (declare) (values 1 2))
2020-06-27T18:46:50Z phoe: oh, the (... &optional)
2020-06-27T18:47:12Z Bike: the problem is that the CLHS pages for THE and the VALUES type contradict each other badly
2020-06-27T18:47:27Z Bike: sbcl resolves it by saying if there are no lambda list keywords it's like THE says, and otherwise it's like VALUES says
2020-06-27T18:47:58Z aeth: Oh, and the check-type form of my DEFINE-FUNCTION for return value checking is even worse because you need to m-v-b the return values to intermediate gensyms and then run CHECK-TYPE on them.
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2020-06-27T18:50:46Z aeth: So no matter which style you use, a macro is more concise than doing it the proper way...
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2020-06-27T19:11:07Z flip214: is there a (declare (not-special )) as well?
2020-06-27T19:11:28Z _death: aeth: you're right that ftype declarations are very tricky.. in fact there are several projects in quicklisp that get them wrong and sbcl gives warnings, but I suppose their authors didn't know because of quicklisp non-verbosity.. but earlier we were discussing a values declaration, not the values typespec
2020-06-27T19:11:42Z Bike: flip214: no, but if a special declaration is local, then a new binding will shadow that
2020-06-27T19:12:55Z flip214: Bike: thanks... I have a globally special, but I'd like to re-use the symbol for a non-special variable.
2020-06-27T19:13:01Z Bike: can't do it.
2020-06-27T19:13:11Z flip214: I'll try a local symbol-macro.
2020-06-27T19:13:40Z Bike: "If an attempt is made to bind a symbol that is defined as a global variable, an error of type program-error is signaled."
2020-06-27T19:14:07Z phoe: flip214: DECLARE LEXICAL was rejected by X3J13
2020-06-27T19:14:14Z Bike: oh, really?
2020-06-27T19:14:20Z phoe: one sec...
2020-06-27T19:14:34Z phoe: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Issues/proclaim-lexical.html
2020-06-27T19:14:39Z phoe: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Issues/proclaim-lexical-notes.html
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2020-06-27T19:15:15Z Bike: oh, as a proclamation it would be more like defglobal or summat
2020-06-27T19:15:49Z Bike: which seems to be the issue here
2020-06-27T19:15:59Z phoe: "There is no way to locally override or globally undo a SPECIAL proclamation."
2020-06-27T19:16:09Z Bike: yup
2020-06-27T19:17:35Z flip214:  The use of symbol-macrolet can be shadowed by let. In other words, symbol-macrolet only substitutes for occurrences of symbol that would be in the scope of a lexical binding of symbol surrounding the forms.
2020-06-27T19:18:06Z flip214: thanks anyway!
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2020-06-27T19:19:54Z _death: so far some of the saildart messages I've been reading were quite insightful.. and some entertaining.. for example when symbol-macrolet was discussed, Guy Steele proposed a number-macrolet... so (number-macrolet ((6 'hi)) (list 6 '6)) => (HI 6) ;)
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2020-06-27T19:26:16Z phoe: _death: (arithmetic-let (((+ 2 2) 5)) (+ 2 2)) ;=> 5
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2020-06-27T19:29:08Z _death: (operator-let ((arithmetic-let quote)) +)
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2020-06-27T19:30:17Z _death: too many arguments :x
2020-06-27T19:31:55Z _death: anyway, this was the message https://github.com/death/gnus-friendly-archives/blob/master/saildart/clobor#L11546
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2020-06-27T19:45:04Z TwoNotes: Groan.  Groveller-generated code gets warnings from SBCL about deprecated "bare references to structures".
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2020-06-28T00:00:55Z bitmapper: ...
2020-06-28T00:01:06Z bitmapper: i think i just stumbled upon a common lisp implementation on github
2020-06-28T00:01:31Z bitmapper: https://github.com/nptcl/npt
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2020-06-28T00:02:42Z no-defun-allowed: That's not very hard to do.
2020-06-28T00:02:57Z bitmapper: well, considering it has clos/mop
2020-06-28T00:03:01Z bitmapper: and apparently is all in C
2020-06-28T00:04:07Z no-defun-allowed: eg https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/, https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/, https://github.com/armedbear/abcl
2020-06-28T00:04:28Z no-defun-allowed: "all in C" shouldn't be something to be proud of, in my opinion.
2020-06-28T00:04:43Z bitmapper: no-defun-allowed: jeez, calm down
2020-06-28T00:05:00Z bitmapper: i'm just surprised i haven't seen this before
2020-06-28T00:06:35Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not disturbed by that. It is just not a good use of one's time to write a Common Lisp implementation (and they don't appear to claim Common Lisp compatibility, FWIW) in C.
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2020-06-28T00:07:18Z bitmapper: considering all the tests have an ANSI COMMON LISP at the top of them
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2020-06-28T00:09:10Z no-defun-allowed: (Well, ECL is certainly quite impressive, but there is a lot of Lisp code in that as well.f)
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2020-06-28T00:11:36Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. I would expect a statement like "npt is an implementation of ANSI Common Lisp" if that is what it should be, though.
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2020-06-28T01:25:23Z bitmapper: * *features*
2020-06-28T01:25:24Z bitmapper: (:LONG-FLOAT-80 :C99 :NPT-64-BIT :NPT :64-BIT :ARCH-64-BIT :LINUX :UNIX :COMMON-LISP :ANSI-CL)
2020-06-28T01:25:26Z bitmapper: no-defun-allowed: :P
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2020-06-28T01:43:37Z no-defun-allowed: :P to you too.
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2020-06-28T01:44:30Z no-defun-allowed: It shouldn't be necessary to download and build a program to find out what it does.
2020-06-28T01:44:58Z bitmapper: i mean it wasnt i just wanted to try it
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2020-06-28T03:45:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-28T03:53:26Z kinope: Hello!
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2020-06-28T08:56:14Z srji: im using emacs, sbcl, slime and i want to know if its possible to lookup the docs of in-build functions like (mapcar)?
2020-06-28T08:59:34Z srji: it is :)
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2020-06-28T08:59:53Z beach: Sure, you can have both the Common Lisp HyperSpec and the implementation-specific documentation.
2020-06-28T09:00:08Z beach: They may (should?) differ in many cases.
2020-06-28T09:03:15Z srji: `(mapcar function list &rest more-lists)` im not sure what is the meaning of `&rest`?
2020-06-28T09:03:32Z beach: clhs &rest
2020-06-28T09:03:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm
2020-06-28T09:03:36Z srji: ty
2020-06-28T09:03:41Z beach: ywlcm.
2020-06-28T09:03:54Z beach: Sorry, yaw, I mean.
2020-06-28T09:04:54Z beach: &REST means that, in addition to the required arguments FUNCTION and LIST, it can also take an arbitrary number of additional arguments.
2020-06-28T09:05:22Z srji: it means it is possible to have a lambda function as argument for mapcar?
2020-06-28T09:05:41Z beach: These additional arguments end up in the list MORE-LISTS.  And as the name suggests, those additional arguments should be more lists.
2020-06-28T09:06:18Z phoe: it's always possible to have an anonymous function as an argument to mapcar
2020-06-28T09:06:20Z beach: There is no such thing as a "lambda function".  The LAMBDA operator creates an anonymous function that can be used where any other function can be used.
2020-06-28T09:06:23Z phoe: a function is a function
2020-06-28T09:06:34Z phoe: (mapcar (lambda (x) (+ x 10)) '(1 2 3 4 5)) is a thing
2020-06-28T09:07:15Z srji: seems logic
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2020-06-28T09:10:36Z beach: So an example of more lists would be (mapcar #'+ '(1 2 3) (4 5 6))
2020-06-28T09:11:30Z beach: Er, so an example of more lists would be (mapcar #'+ '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
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2020-06-28T09:24:46Z srji: ty
2020-06-28T09:25:10Z beach: yaw
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2020-06-28T12:51:35Z kinope: Hmm, how would I get the output from macroexpand-1 to be nicely formatted, w/ indentation and such. I've looked at setting *print-pretty* and *print-readably*  to t, but that didn't seem to help.
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2020-06-28T12:54:58Z beach: It should happen automatically if you do it in the REPL.
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2020-06-28T12:55:13Z Bike: print-pretty T should do it. do you still get the output on one line like that?
2020-06-28T12:55:28Z Bike: print-readably you probably don't want
2020-06-28T12:55:33Z Bike: that's "readably" as in by the computer, not by you
2020-06-28T13:00:35Z kinope: Well it's not all on one line, just is missing line-breaks where you'd expect them to be, after function arguments for instance.
2020-06-28T13:02:04Z kinope: It's definitely doing some formatting, just not what I'd expect.
2020-06-28T13:03:41Z kinope: previous message should read 'after function arguments(lambda list?) in a defun'
2020-06-28T13:04:35Z Bike: there are some ways to adjust the formatting, but what you're seeing is probably what the implementation considers good formatting
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2020-06-28T13:04:43Z Bike: though i can't see it myself of course
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2020-06-28T13:07:21Z kinope: Yes I think you may be right, it's not a big issue, just thought I'd ask anyway.
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2020-06-28T15:22:24Z Josh_2: Afternoon
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2020-06-28T15:45:36Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-06-28T17:26:24Z Josh_2: How do I use a ps macro within a ps body? (parenscript)
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2020-06-28T19:25:52Z TwoNotes: Going crazy trying to find the right syntax to pass a c-struct by reference to a CFFI alien function (SBCL)
2020-06-28T19:26:37Z TwoNotes: That is, how to describe it to define-alien-routine.
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2020-06-28T19:58:24Z Josh_2: TwoNotes: that concept is alien to me ;)
2020-06-28T19:59:01Z TwoNotes: Yeah, but I think it is easier to interface to existing libfoo routines that try to recreate them in Lisp
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2020-06-28T20:05:12Z TwoNotes: Stuff like libv4l2convert.   Compute-intensive
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2020-06-28T20:18:51Z Josh_2: Yep, you making bindings for v4l?
2020-06-28T20:18:54Z Josh_2: because thats kewl
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2020-06-28T20:22:23Z TwoNotes: I found bindings for the basic V4L2 stuff.  CL-V4L2.  It is specifically the format conversion linrary I need.
2020-06-28T20:22:37Z TwoNotes: But later on I will also need libogg, libopus, libtheora, etc
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2020-06-28T20:23:34Z TwoNotes: As is usual with CL projects, I am working on something else entirely but end up spending all my time on infrastructure and these CFFI things
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2020-06-28T20:42:39Z Xach: I wish I could suggest a project that might have similar code to use as an example.
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2020-06-28T20:43:57Z TwoNotes: None of the example in the CFFI doc actually do this.
2020-06-28T20:44:38Z TwoNotes: Plenty of examples of "how do I pass a struct by value to a C routine"
2020-06-28T20:47:02Z Xach: Oh, I thought that's what you meant. What's a CFFI alien function compared to that?
2020-06-28T20:47:29Z TwoNotes: I am trying to pass a POINTER to something defined by defcstruct
2020-06-28T20:49:33Z Xach: TwoNotes: The manual says "To pass or return the pointer, you can use either :pointer or (:pointer (:struct structure-name))." That's not what you want?
2020-06-28T20:49:57Z TwoNotes: I think so
2020-06-28T20:50:05Z Xach: Actually, I should avoid further guessing - I don't use CFFI and can't answer any followups!
2020-06-28T20:50:18Z Xach: But I will say the mailing list is very good at helping out
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2020-06-28T20:56:28Z TwoNotes: Ah, which mailing list woiuld that be?
2020-06-28T20:57:30Z Xach: The cffi-devel mailing list.
2020-06-28T20:58:46Z TwoNotes: thanks
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2020-06-28T21:12:47Z matzy_: does anyone here use the CL-DBI packages for interfacing with databases?
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2020-06-28T21:51:54Z AXUAL: Hi all
2020-06-28T21:53:41Z no-defun-allowed: Hello AXUAL.
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2020-06-28T21:54:35Z AXUAL: Is LISP ever used in the field of AI today?
2020-06-28T21:55:34Z no-defun-allowed: No, LISP hasn't been used since the 70s or so. Lisp, on the other hand, does have some AI libraries, and I think RavenPack uses it to data mine at least.
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2020-06-28T21:56:31Z AXUAL: Oh I see.
2020-06-28T21:56:42Z AXUAL: Is Lisp the original lisp?
2020-06-28T21:57:32Z no-defun-allowed: I think upcased LISP was used before capitalized Lisp.
2020-06-28T21:57:50Z AXUAL: I see
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2020-06-28T21:58:17Z AXUAL: I thought the original LISP was good for sort of symbolic AI
2020-06-28T21:58:22Z AXUAL: Lisp*
2020-06-28T21:58:42Z phoe: it is, except AI went in a completely different direction
2020-06-28T21:58:50Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, Lisp was very important when symbolic AI was big.
2020-06-28T21:59:13Z no-defun-allowed: And some uses of it are still well served by Lisp.
2020-06-28T21:59:13Z AXUAL: True. I can see why I think
2020-06-28T21:59:17Z phoe: now the so-called "artificial intelligence" is mostly "machine learning", or, in other words, statistics and neural nets
2020-06-28T21:59:21Z AXUAL: I see
2020-06-28T21:59:30Z AXUAL: Yeah. The whole symbolic AI was pretty interesting
2020-06-28T21:59:52Z AXUAL: Like Minsky I think it was and his theory of Knowledge Frames
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2020-06-28T22:00:15Z AXUAL: I think the approach still holds merit and should merge with ML techniques
2020-06-28T22:00:30Z AXUAL: I like Lisp's metaprogramming and macros functionality
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2020-06-28T22:00:34Z no-defun-allowed: There are machinecoughgut feelingcough learning libraries in Common Lisp.
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2020-06-28T22:00:58Z AXUAL: True
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2020-06-28T22:01:28Z AXUAL: Idk why but I think lisp would be rather good for NLP
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2020-06-28T22:27:19Z AXUAL: What would the best way to improve at LISP be? Going from project to project gradually increasing in complexity?
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2020-06-28T22:31:56Z no-defun-allowed: Did I not imply strongly enough that no one upcases the name Lisp anymore?
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2020-06-28T22:35:13Z AXUAL: Fine then, CLISP
2020-06-28T22:35:34Z no-defun-allowed: Fucking what?
2020-06-28T22:35:44Z Josh_2: I reckon if you are attempting to improve a lisp, you might want to see a speech therapist ;)
2020-06-28T22:35:48Z AXUAL: that's a valid way to speel Common Lisp
2020-06-28T22:35:54Z AXUAL: spell*
2020-06-28T22:36:02Z no-defun-allowed: It is not, and shut up, Josh_2
2020-06-28T22:36:18Z AXUAL: But Wikipedia said so...
2020-06-28T22:36:20Z AXUAL: :/
2020-06-28T22:36:29Z Josh_2: AXUAL: if you want to get better at CL, then pick a project and get going
2020-06-28T22:36:43Z AXUAL: True. I think I'll make a simple grid based game
2020-06-28T22:36:51Z no-defun-allowed: CLISP is the name of one Common Lisp implementation that is not used very often outside of courses written by stupid course writers.
2020-06-28T22:37:03Z AXUAL: Fine then, SBCL
2020-06-28T22:37:04Z AXUAL: lol
2020-06-28T22:37:13Z Josh_2: You can use whatever one you want ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-06-28T22:37:17Z AXUAL: :P
2020-06-28T22:37:27Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL is also an implementation and not Common Lisp itself.
2020-06-28T22:37:39Z AXUAL: I can still refer to it, no?
2020-06-28T22:38:00Z AXUAL: How do implementations and dialects differ? Are dialects modifications of a standard?
2020-06-28T22:38:05Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, but (not (eq sbcl common-lisp))
2020-06-28T22:38:18Z AXUAL: true
2020-06-28T22:39:36Z no-defun-allowed: And calling Lisp languages "dialects" is misleading as they usually use different standards, and they are usually mutually incomprehensible.
2020-06-28T22:40:56Z Josh_2: AXUAL: just don't accidentally say Scheme xD
2020-06-28T22:41:26Z no-defun-allowed: A Common Lisp implementation implements the language specified by the ANSI standard, and so a conforming program can run on any implementation.
2020-06-28T22:41:34Z ebrasca: I calling implementations dialects I think is ok.
2020-06-28T22:41:54Z Josh_2: I think most everyone would understand what you mean if you said dialect
2020-06-28T22:42:04Z AXUAL: True
2020-06-28T22:42:34Z AXUAL: Thanks
2020-06-28T22:43:34Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, fuck this.
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2020-06-28T22:52:24Z Josh_2: oof
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2020-06-28T22:53:55Z AXUAL: xD
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2020-06-28T22:59:11Z AXUAL: am going to sign out. see you all
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2020-06-29T03:29:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-06-29T03:29:44Z wxie: Morning
2020-06-29T03:30:58Z beach: wxie: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2020-06-29T03:31:53Z wxie: beach: Not new, but not much contribution.
2020-06-29T03:32:07Z beach: OK, I see.
2020-06-29T03:34:27Z Josh_2: Morning beach
2020-06-29T03:34:33Z Josh_2: well 4:38am here :O
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2020-06-29T11:38:54Z lukego: I'd like to drive Blender from Lisp. Any ideas? Just now it seems like the simplest would be to output Python code that calls the blender API and have that executed somehow.
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2020-06-29T11:40:36Z phoe: burgled-batteries?
2020-06-29T11:40:50Z phoe: there was some code to integrate python with cl
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2020-06-29T11:50:30Z heisig: There is cl4py and py4cl for piping data between Lisp and Python.  The former is for using Lisp from Python, the latter is for using Python from Lisp.
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2020-06-29T11:56:39Z lukego: py4cl looks really relevant, thanks for the tip
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2020-06-29T12:11:26Z lukego: to start with I think I'll just use format strings to write python code
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2020-06-29T12:45:22Z Harag: if I want to create a method implementation for any type of class can I specialize on standard-object or should it be standard-class.. the method that has no specialization is already doing other stuff for standard lisp types so cant use that
2020-06-29T12:49:12Z Harag: or would that end up catching lisp types as well?
2020-06-29T12:49:35Z phoe: "for any type of class"?
2020-06-29T12:49:38Z phoe: what do you mean?
2020-06-29T12:49:55Z phoe: do you mean (defmethod foo ((object class) ...) ...)?
2020-06-29T12:50:09Z Harag: yeah something like that
2020-06-29T12:50:25Z phoe: this will only accept class objects then
2020-06-29T12:50:51Z phoe: types in CL are second-class citizens, you can't write methods for type specifiers
2020-06-29T12:50:59Z jackdaniel: Harag: specialize on standard-object
2020-06-29T12:51:01Z phoe: they can be symbols, conses, or classes
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2020-06-29T12:52:06Z jackdaniel: specializing on class will work only for objects returned i.e by (class-of my-object)
2020-06-29T12:52:31Z phoe: yes, and I hope that's the idea Harag wanted
2020-06-29T12:52:41Z phoe: if I mis-interpreted, then this won't work
2020-06-29T12:53:07Z Harag: yes I think that is what I want :)
2020-06-29T12:53:21Z jackdaniel: uhm, OK then, sorry for the noise
2020-06-29T12:53:56Z phoe: that wasn't a crystal-clear question for me to interpret, so noise is both okay and expected I guess
2020-06-29T12:54:26Z Harag: yeah I am not clear on the difference between class and standard-object
2020-06-29T12:54:38Z Harag: so I might still be in the dark
2020-06-29T12:54:53Z jackdaniel: (defclass foo () ()) (Defvar *foo* (make-instance 'foo))
2020-06-29T12:54:56Z Harag: so standard-object would only be user defined classes?
2020-06-29T12:55:03Z phoe: nope
2020-06-29T12:55:12Z phoe: CLASS and STANDARD-OBJECT are disjoint classes
2020-06-29T12:55:27Z Harag: disjoint?
2020-06-29T12:55:32Z jackdaniel: if you specialize your method on class, then (my-fun *foo*) won't have a specialization
2020-06-29T12:55:40Z phoe: uh, I mean - not really disjoint
2020-06-29T12:55:41Z jackdaniel: but (my-fun (class-of *foo*)) will
2020-06-29T12:55:48Z phoe: more like, they are not subclasses of one another
2020-06-29T12:55:56Z beach: phoe: CLASS is a subclass of STANDARD-OBJECT.
2020-06-29T12:55:58Z jackdaniel: class is a subclass of standard-object
2020-06-29T12:55:58Z phoe: they are not disjoint - STANDARD-CLASS is both a CLASS and a STANDARD-OBJECT
2020-06-29T12:56:03Z phoe: beach: no
2020-06-29T12:56:07Z phoe: ...wait
2020-06-29T12:56:19Z phoe: seriously? woah
2020-06-29T12:56:22Z phoe re-reads
2020-06-29T12:56:33Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-mop/graph.png
2020-06-29T12:56:38Z jackdaniel: if you prefer books with pictures: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/graph.png
2020-06-29T12:56:44Z jackdaniel: heh, second(!)
2020-06-29T12:56:46Z phoe: no, I just didn't expect that BUILT-IN-CLASS would be a STANDARD-OBJECT as well
2020-06-29T12:57:36Z jackdaniel: instances of built-in-class may not be standard objects
2020-06-29T12:58:01Z beach: It is, because it is an instance of STANDARD-CLASS and STANDARD-CLASS is a subclass of STANDARD-OBJECT.
2020-06-29T12:58:14Z beach: phoe: ^
2020-06-29T12:59:34Z phoe: goodness gracious, I need to re-read this part of the spec
2020-06-29T13:00:11Z phoe: you are right
2020-06-29T13:00:17Z beach: I recommend you read the online version.  The book version is just too messy.
2020-06-29T13:00:28Z phoe: I'll read the online version, yes
2020-06-29T13:01:06Z beach: In that graph, classes with red text are instances of STANDARD-CLASS and classes with blue text are instances of FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-CLASS.
2020-06-29T13:01:07Z jackdaniel: is it specified in the ansi standard that built-in-class has a metaclass standard-class? or is it mandated only by mop?
2020-06-29T13:01:49Z beach doesn't know.
2020-06-29T13:02:03Z phoe: clhs built-in-class
2020-06-29T13:02:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_built_.htm
2020-06-29T13:02:10Z phoe: there's only the CPL in there
2020-06-29T13:06:13Z beach: Harag: You question is till vague because classes are standard Common Lisp types as well.
2020-06-29T13:06:46Z beach: Harag: It might help if you gave an example.
2020-06-29T13:06:46Z Harag: beach I want a specializer that will only catch user defined classes ie defclass
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2020-06-29T13:07:05Z Harag: I dont want it to catch hash-table and the likes
2020-06-29T13:07:19Z jackdaniel: you are still vague
2020-06-29T13:07:25Z beach: Harag: That can be very tricky.
2020-06-29T13:07:29Z phoe: standard-class is not enough then; an implementation is free to implement a hash table as a standard class
2020-06-29T13:07:32Z jackdaniel: when you have (defclass foo () ()) and (defvar *foo* (make-instance 'foo))
2020-06-29T13:07:43Z jackdaniel: do you want it to catch *foo*, or (find-class 'foo) ?
2020-06-29T13:08:00Z beach: Harag: Because the standard doesn't say how the standard classes are implemented.  They may be standard classes, or built-in classes.
2020-06-29T13:09:01Z beach: Harag: For example, in SICL, classes such as SYMBOL, PACKAGE, HASH-TABLE are all standard classes, and instances of them are all standard objects.
2020-06-29T13:09:47Z beach: I should have said, the standard doesn't say how "system classes" are implemented.
2020-06-29T13:10:23Z beach: Harag: And, yes, it is still not clear whether you are talking about the class metaobjects, or instances of them.
2020-06-29T13:10:38Z Harag: instances
2020-06-29T13:10:42Z phoe: I mean, the standard specifies the list of all system classes; you can just specialize on all of them if you are patient enough
2020-06-29T13:10:56Z beach: I think that's the only thing that will work.
2020-06-29T13:11:38Z beach: There is no standardized way of distinguishing between an instance of a system class and an instance of a standard class.
2020-06-29T13:12:10Z beach: ... simply because a system class can very well be a standard class.
2020-06-29T13:13:06Z Harag: beach: I really only need to deal with the ones that do are data structures and I wanted to give a defualt for stuff that have slots that would come from user defined classes
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2020-06-29T13:13:34Z Harag: I guess I will have to leave the user defined classes to the user to specialize on what they need
2020-06-29T13:13:41Z phoe: which problem are you solving?
2020-06-29T13:14:56Z Harag: its a get that undestands plists,hashtables etc so the user can swap between the underlying data structure without having to change calls to get data
2020-06-29T13:14:57Z beach: Harag: Both instances of standard classes and many instances of system classes are "data structures".
2020-06-29T13:16:18Z Harag: so let me as it this way will slot-value work on all of those beach?
2020-06-29T13:16:27Z beach: Harag: So why not just specialize to LIST, HASH-TABLE, etc.?
2020-06-29T13:16:53Z jackdaniel: s/list/cons/
2020-06-29T13:17:18Z jackdaniel: and null
2020-06-29T13:17:23Z beach: Harag: In SICL, (slot-value 'hello 'sicl-symbol::%name) will return "HELLO".
2020-06-29T13:17:34Z beach: jackdaniel: Why?
2020-06-29T13:17:42Z Harag: beach: I could do that but I wanted t be nice and give someting that would deal with slot-value
2020-06-29T13:18:16Z phoe: jackdaniel: LIST is a system class, not just a type
2020-06-29T13:18:30Z Harag: if slot-value wont crash any of them then I can live with it, and in 9 out of 10 cases it would do the right thing from a user's perspective
2020-06-29T13:18:35Z phoe: (and yes, I had to double-check it with the spec)
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2020-06-29T13:18:45Z jackdaniel: beach: phoe: my bad
2020-06-29T13:18:55Z beach: Harag: SLOT-VALUE will very likely not work on a CONS.
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2020-06-29T13:19:20Z beach: It may work on a hash table.
2020-06-29T13:19:29Z beach: But what slot would you be looking for?
2020-06-29T13:20:15Z phoe: so basically you want (dwim-get some-data-structure :foo) ;=> :bar
2020-06-29T13:20:21Z Harag: beach: I dont know, so some responsibility can be letf to the user to not expect miricles
2020-06-29T13:20:23Z phoe: (if I understand you correctly)
2020-06-29T13:20:41Z phoe: where SOME-DATA-STRUCTURE can be an alist, or a plist, or a hash table, or a standard object, or ..., or ...
2020-06-29T13:20:44Z phoe: something like that?
2020-06-29T13:20:46Z Harag: phoe: yes
2020-06-29T13:21:31Z phoe: if yes, you should be able to write one method for LIST that covers alists and plists, another for hash tables, and yet another for standard objects, and let users write methods for their own data structures
2020-06-29T13:22:18Z phoe: if you (defgeneric dwim-get (some-data-structure &rest keys)) then things should mostly work
2020-06-29T13:22:27Z Harag: phoe: that exactly what I wanted to do , but then I got lost between standard-object, standard-class and the rest
2020-06-29T13:22:33Z phoe: AFAIK some lisp projects have achieved something like that in the past
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2020-06-29T13:23:17Z Harag: phoe: I also do a dig which relies on the get so wanted control over what I was doing
2020-06-29T13:23:31Z beach: Harag: I can't figure out what you would do in a method that specialized to "any object on which SLOT-VALUE will work".
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2020-06-29T13:24:23Z beach: I mean, to do something useful in such a method, you would at least need to know the name of a slot.
2020-06-29T13:24:48Z Harag: beach: it means the user does not have to write there own method specialization for their class instance if it will look exactly the same any way
2020-06-29T13:25:07Z Harag: the user is passing the name
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2020-06-29T13:25:18Z beach: The name of a slot?
2020-06-29T13:25:30Z Harag: or key of hash-table
2020-06-29T13:25:38Z Harag: or property of plist
2020-06-29T13:25:50Z phoe: cl21 has something similar, https://github.com/cl21/cl21/blob/c36644f3b6ea4975174c8ce72de43a4524dd0696/src/core/generic.lisp#L31-L49
2020-06-29T13:25:56Z beach: Oh, dear!  Slots are internal things and should never be used for access.
2020-06-29T13:26:02Z phoe: note that I in no way whatsoever endorse cl21
2020-06-29T13:26:48Z phoe: also what beach said, if I name my slot MY-PACKAGE::%FOO then I don't want it to be accessed via SLOT-VALUE
2020-06-29T13:27:06Z phoe: accessors and accessor protocols exist for a reason
2020-06-29T13:27:51Z Harag: can you pass the accessor like you would pass a function?
2020-06-29T13:27:58Z beach: Harag: One thing I learned from reading the CLIM spec was that classes are specified in terms of their initargs and their accessors.
2020-06-29T13:28:03Z phoe: Harag: yes
2020-06-29T13:28:21Z beach: Harag: An accessor is just a pair of functions, a reader and a writer.
2020-06-29T13:28:26Z phoe: for standard objects, accessors are functions
2020-06-29T13:28:59Z beach: Harag: Typically #'name and #'(setf name).  Often, just the reader is defined.
2020-06-29T13:29:29Z jackdaniel: semi-relevant: https://github.com/scymtym/traits (concept of traits, helps to decide whether the class implements a specified protocol)
2020-06-29T13:29:55Z beach: Harag: So whereas (slot-value 'hello 'sicl-symbol::%name) will work in SICL but not in other implementations, the accessor #'SYMBOL-NAME will work everywhere.
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2020-06-29T13:32:52Z phoe: jackdaniel: interesting, I'll read that in-depth later
2020-06-29T13:33:27Z beach: Harag: Less LOOP and more slots doesn't seem to me a good path to more lispy code.
2020-06-29T13:33:37Z Harag: lol
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2020-06-29T13:34:57Z beach: phoe: Do you still remember the link to that chapter on protocols?  Or did you improve on it?
2020-06-29T13:35:10Z beach: phoe: We should share it with Harag.
2020-06-29T13:35:55Z Harag: beach I have a naive object db package that uses plist as its basic data object just wanted to be able to switch between data structures simply ... so dont worry about the optimal structure you can change it later... get something up and running and then optimize
2020-06-29T13:36:13Z phoe: beach: http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf ?
2020-06-29T13:36:27Z beach: yeah, but didn't you improve on it at some point?
2020-06-29T13:36:40Z jackdaniel: optimization is not a feature, it is the implementation trait!
2020-06-29T13:38:25Z beach: Harag: If the representation shows in functions all over the system, then it is time to abstract away the representation and use a well-defined protocol for it.
2020-06-29T13:38:56Z beach: Harag: There should be exactly one place in the system that uses the fact that it is a plist.
2020-06-29T13:41:00Z beach: Harag: A plist is what I call a "concrete data type" to distinguish it form an "abstract data type".  Concrete data types are used for implementing abstract data types, but should never be exposed in the protocol.
2020-06-29T13:41:36Z beach: There are just too many quirks with concrete data types.
2020-06-29T13:42:56Z beach: Harag: For example, (SETF GETF) takes a place and not an object.  Such a thing should never be in a protocol specification.
2020-06-29T13:44:36Z Harag: beach: its not my library that causes the issues its using the data structures in the user's code that causes issues the get a value for plist its getf for hash-table its get-hash for objects the accessor method, that is where you code yourself into a corner with the underlying data structure, so I wanted to do getx to get round that for those that wanted the flexibility to change
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2020-06-29T13:45:25Z beach: And how do you propose to do that for SETX?
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2020-06-29T13:46:55Z phoe: you want a layer of abstraction between your concrete data types and the code that uses it
2020-06-29T13:47:00Z phoe: that's where the protocol part comes in
2020-06-29T13:47:49Z beach: It looks like something happened to matrix.org.
2020-06-29T13:48:15Z Harag: beach: the setx is just a (setf getx)
2020-06-29T13:48:29Z beach: Oh yeah?
2020-06-29T13:48:31Z Harag: for what I have so far it works
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2020-06-29T13:49:23Z phoe: there's a few edge cases where #'(setf getx) won't work, keep that in mind
2020-06-29T13:49:24Z beach: Try (setf (getf '() :hello) 234).
2020-06-29T13:49:24Z Harag: it even works for the hierarchical getx ie digx
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2020-06-29T13:50:04Z beach: Or even (let ((x '())) (setf (getf x :hello) 234) x)
2020-06-29T13:50:08Z phoe: and beach just mentioned one
2020-06-29T13:50:19Z beach: Well, I guess that one work.s
2020-06-29T13:50:26Z beach: Try this one instead...
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2020-06-29T13:50:30Z phoe: this one works because SETF GETF does not expand into a function
2020-06-29T13:50:44Z Harag: beach that second one works in sbcl
2020-06-29T13:51:02Z beach: (let* ((x '()) (y x)) (setf (getf y :hello) 234) x)
2020-06-29T13:51:07Z Harag: and thus any user defined method setf works
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2020-06-29T13:52:08Z phoe: basically, there's an edge case with null plists that prevents SETF GETF from being a function
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2020-06-29T13:52:35Z phoe: also possibly with plists that don't contain the key that is attempted to be set
2020-06-29T13:52:36Z beach: Harag: Did you try the last one?
2020-06-29T13:52:54Z Harag: (let* ((x '()) (y x)) (setf (getf y :hello) 234) x)
2020-06-29T13:52:55Z beach: Harag: Compare that to the same thing when x and y are hash tables.
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2020-06-29T13:53:57Z phoe: Harag: basically, (let ((plist '())) (put-in-plist plist :foo :bar)) always fails if PUT-IN-PLIST is a function, not a macro.
2020-06-29T13:54:44Z Harag: beach: I sped read the protocol thingy need to spend more time on it, but are you saying that a protocal would work where getx wont or that getx is a protocal with limitations?
2020-06-29T13:55:05Z phoe: I think neither
2020-06-29T13:55:15Z Harag: lol
2020-06-29T13:55:24Z beach: Harag: Or this one (defun add-stuff (container) (setf (getf :container new) 234)) and then (defparameter *container* '())) and then (add-stuff *container*).
2020-06-29T13:56:06Z beach: Harag: I am saying that you lose if you use plists as you would use an abstract data type.
2020-06-29T13:56:40Z beach: And you can never uniformize a protocol (or interface, or whatever you call it) so that it works both for plists and hash tables.
2020-06-29T13:57:02Z beach: Because a plist is a concrete data type and a hash table is an abstract data type.
2020-06-29T13:57:35Z Harag ... trying to compute the difference between concrete and abstract data structure
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2020-06-29T13:58:19Z beach: An abstract data type is defined by the operations you are allowed on it.  And assignment of an instance of an abstract data type preserves identity.
2020-06-29T13:58:34Z Harag: beach: but I can treat a hashtable as a concrete data type?
2020-06-29T13:59:26Z beach: Sure, you can do that.  But the thing is that when you deal with concrete data types, you can't necessarily uniformize the operations on them.
2020-06-29T14:00:20Z beach: SETX or (SETF GETX) is an example as I showed you.
2020-06-29T14:00:53Z beach: Because with the hash table, adding an element preserves the identity of the hash table.
2020-06-29T14:01:08Z beach: But adding an element to a plist is not guaranteed to do that.
2020-06-29T14:01:26Z beach: My two examples with LET* and DEFUN both show that.
2020-06-29T14:01:56Z phoe: note: if you wrap your data type in some sort of object that is an ADT, you are able to uniformize these operations
2020-06-29T14:02:37Z beach: Indeed, even if one of them is just a standard-object with a plist inside it.
2020-06-29T14:03:00Z phoe: (defclass my-data-type () ()) (defclass hash-table-data-type (my-data-type) ...) (defclass plist-data-type (my-data-type) ...) (defclass alist-data-type (my-data-type) ...)
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2020-06-29T14:03:12Z beach: I call such things "header objects", and their sole purpose is to preserve identity
2020-06-29T14:03:25Z phoe: (defgeneric getx (data-type &rest keys)) (defmethod getx ((data-type hash-table-data-type) &rest keys) ...) and so on
2020-06-29T14:04:54Z Harag: beach: but does lisp functions to build lists maintain identity?
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2020-06-29T14:05:07Z beach: Harag: No.
2020-06-29T14:05:19Z phoe: not necessarily
2020-06-29T14:05:20Z Harag: but there are some that do?
2020-06-29T14:05:22Z beach: (defun add-thing (list) (push 'thing list))
2020-06-29T14:05:42Z Harag: is it the difference between destructive and non destructive?
2020-06-29T14:05:49Z phoe: not necessarily
2020-06-29T14:05:53Z phoe: NIL is the edge case
2020-06-29T14:05:54Z beach: Harag: If they don't ALL do it, you don't have an abstract data type.
2020-06-29T14:06:00Z phoe: you cannot modify NIL
2020-06-29T14:06:08Z beach: Harag: No, (setf gethash) is destructive.
2020-06-29T14:06:39Z beach: Harag: One way of understanding the difference between a concrete and an abstract data type, other than the fact that the latter preserves identity across operations, is that for the latter, you don't need to know how it is represented in order to understand the effect of the operations, but for the former, you do.
2020-06-29T14:07:01Z Harag: ok
2020-06-29T14:07:24Z beach: Harag: This is really basic stuff.  Is Common Lisp your first programming language?
2020-06-29T14:08:34Z beach: Harag: This stuff is needed by anybody writing code in any programming language, when the code is just a bit larger than FizzBuzz.
2020-06-29T14:08:46Z Harag: no beach but I have no formal education in programming so my bad
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2020-06-29T14:09:20Z beach: Harag: Formal training is not a requirement.  But you do need to learn about this stuff to be able to write basically anything.
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2020-06-29T14:11:48Z Harag: beach: I dont know about that, you are saying I have not written anything significant in the last 20 years...ouch
2020-06-29T14:12:34Z Harag: beach: I have difficulty with the language describing programming promblems but have learned by trial and error to do enough to come by
2020-06-29T14:12:50Z Harag: but I always want to improve
2020-06-29T14:13:03Z phoe: that's the part where "formal education" can come in handy
2020-06-29T14:13:09Z Harag: so any direction is welcome as is your attempts to teach here.
2020-06-29T14:13:12Z phoe: and it doesn't really have to be formal as in degrees and such
2020-06-29T14:13:32Z phoe: self-development is possible and encouraged, especially in the world of programming
2020-06-29T14:15:42Z beach: Harag: If you don't know this stuff, it is very likely that you have written only programs that do not require any significant data types, or else that your code is very hard to maintain.
2020-06-29T14:16:53Z Harag: beach: have have written business stuff mostly, and used standard databases, so digging into data structures on a lower level is a new venture for me, something I hack away at in my free time...
2020-06-29T14:17:13Z beach: Yeah, that would explain it.
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2020-06-29T14:21:40Z Harag: for instance I have implemented a hash-table based on random access lists to try and improve my little db's indexing
2020-06-29T14:21:40Z beach: Harag: [from my unpublished book] http://metamodular.com/data-types.pdf
2020-06-29T14:21:45Z phoe: the lower-level world is full of quirks and edge cases like that
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2020-06-29T14:23:51Z Harag: beach is that "Introduction to Computer Science"?
2020-06-29T14:24:05Z Harag: will add it to my reading list thanx
2020-06-29T14:24:22Z beach: No, the title is "Concrete and Abstract Data Types with Algorithms".
2020-06-29T14:24:31Z Harag: ok
2020-06-29T14:24:33Z beach: And it is unpublished.
2020-06-29T14:25:00Z Harag: eish
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2020-06-29T14:25:22Z Harag: ok well add me to the first customer list please ;)
2020-06-29T14:25:33Z beach: I'll try to remember.
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2020-06-29T14:28:25Z theseb_: I implemented for loop and while loop macros....Any advice on how implement break and continue?  (break = exists the looping function)...(continue = leaves the current loop only)
2020-06-29T14:29:00Z theseb_: Also how implement a "return" to exist functions at interior points?
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2020-06-29T14:29:11Z theseb_: I've noticed all these questions have to do with altering flow of execution
2020-06-29T14:29:24Z beach: Expand your loop constructs to TAGBODY and make the break and the continue a GO.
2020-06-29T14:29:27Z jackdaniel: implement tagbody and go, that should suffice
2020-06-29T14:29:38Z jackdaniel: second again :)
2020-06-29T14:30:05Z beach: Sorry. :)
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2020-06-29T14:30:38Z jackdaniel: no need, if we are wrong, then the one eaten by the mob will be you ,)
2020-06-29T14:31:07Z beach: Good point.  And I can probably handle being eaten better than you can. :)
2020-06-29T14:31:20Z kinope: You guys ever have seemingly crazy illogical bugs that you can't explain. I have a spot in a function, where if I don't put a copy-list in when creating a let binding, I can't create an instance of a certain class without its one slot-value which is meant to be an instance of a class, getting initialised as #<unknown pointer object, lowtag=#x3
2020-06-29T14:31:21Z kinope: {10015505F3}>. Like, that function I was talking about isn't even being called, I'm just creating a fresh instance of the class at the repl, but if I don't load the code for that function with the copy-list there, then I get that wacky result. I don't know how I would event go about creating a reduced test case, and I don't want to dump the code on
2020-06-29T14:31:21Z kinope: you like I did the other night. It works for now, I'm just wondering if you have stories of weird bugs like this that you never solved.
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2020-06-29T14:32:45Z phoe: either you invoked UB in some place or you found an obscure implementation bug
2020-06-29T14:34:13Z phoe: what is the list? is it getting mutated anywhere?
2020-06-29T14:34:19Z phoe: is it supposed to be mutated?
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2020-06-29T14:34:27Z Bike: needing copy-list suggests the list might be constant or dynamic-extent or something.
2020-06-29T14:34:34Z phoe: ^
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2020-06-29T14:36:57Z kinope: well, it's a list returned from (c2mop:class-precedence-list (class-of /class-instance/)) to be specific. I just don't see how it should affect creating an instance of a class at a totally unrelated time.
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2020-06-29T14:37:23Z kinope: I am doing an nreverse on that returned list
2020-06-29T14:37:35Z phoe: you must not do that
2020-06-29T14:37:46Z beach: You nreverse the class precedence list?
2020-06-29T14:37:56Z kinope: yes
2020-06-29T14:37:59Z beach: That would be very bad.
2020-06-29T14:37:59Z phoe: well then, you're destroying the implementation's internal data structures
2020-06-29T14:38:09Z kinope: oh
2020-06-29T14:38:17Z phoe: to quote a part of SBCL source code, "Congratulations!"
2020-06-29T14:38:33Z kinope: i was wondering if that was the issue
2020-06-29T14:38:35Z phoe: *never* mutate lists that are not fresh.
2020-06-29T14:38:48Z phoe: if you wonder if a list is fresh, assume it's not.
2020-06-29T14:39:15Z beach: mop class-precedence-list
2020-06-29T14:39:15Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-precedence-list.html
2020-06-29T14:40:02Z kinope: I am aware of the weird things that can happen when mutating lists, but I didn't know this wasn't a fresh list.
2020-06-29T14:40:14Z kinope: it makes sense now
2020-06-29T14:40:36Z beach: It seems very clear that this function returns whatever is stored in the class, without copying it.
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2020-06-29T14:43:35Z kinope14: okay so if it doesn't explicitly mention that it returns a copy, then it doesn't. got it.
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2020-06-29T14:45:47Z theseb_: jackdaniel: wow...go looks interesting...a literal goto in lisp....i guess that makes the evaluator that much more complicated since it must label various positions and then be able to move the "instruction pointer" to it
2020-06-29T14:46:00Z phoe: better to copy one time too much than not enough
2020-06-29T14:46:05Z phoe: kinope:
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2020-06-29T14:47:56Z kinope: phoe: I'll keep that in mind.
2020-06-29T14:48:09Z Bike: theseb_: if you're writing a classic sort of evaluator you can use the tagbody forms themselves as "locations" by associating each tag with the list of subsequent forms. it is kind of complicated but not that complicated.
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2020-06-29T14:52:12Z kinope: I wanted to speed up that function by using nreverse instead of reverse. I'll just have to compute a bunch of my own fresh precedence-lists when I create the classes instead.
2020-06-29T14:53:59Z beach: The precedence list is not computed when the class is created.
2020-06-29T14:55:07Z beach: Check the section "Class finalization protocol" on http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/table-of-contents.html
2020-06-29T14:55:49Z kinope: sorry create an instance
2020-06-29T14:56:05Z theseb_: Bike: thanks ...good idea..i'm kind of bummed however that implementing a go (goto) requires evaluator tweaks...it removes from the elegance of the lisp core
2020-06-29T14:56:26Z Bike: i think i told you not to worry about elegance before
2020-06-29T14:56:34Z Bike: in any case, declaration processing will fuck you up as well
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2020-06-29T14:59:45Z phoe: Bike: they fuck people up only if one decides to implement them all, right?
2020-06-29T14:59:57Z Bike: no, it's annoying anyway
2020-06-29T15:00:06Z phoe: only SPECIAL is really mandatory for an implementation
2020-06-29T15:00:12Z Bike: like for let* you need to match special declarations to the variables for use in the nested lets or whatever you do
2020-06-29T15:00:22Z phoe: oooh, like that - yes, I see
2020-06-29T15:00:30Z beach: But I take it this is not going to be a Common Lisp implementation anyway, right?
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2020-06-29T15:00:45Z theseb_: Bike: i'm translating imperative code to lisp in case you hadn't guessed....just for fun i'm wondering if there is a way to implement a goto instead with lots of "if" statement....What I'm imagining is using if statements to "detect" goto requests and react properly
2020-06-29T15:01:02Z Bike: that sounds really inefficient.
2020-06-29T15:01:04Z phoe: theseb_: what sort of imperative code?
2020-06-29T15:01:17Z theseb_: Bike: in principle it "smells" right....because "if" itself is all about altering program flow!
2020-06-29T15:01:19Z Bike: if you want to do tagbody in the "elegant" way, rewrite it as tail calls.
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2020-06-29T15:01:58Z theseb_: phoe: for and while loops
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2020-06-29T15:02:24Z phoe: and these use GOTO?
2020-06-29T15:02:26Z theseb_: phoe: i have the for and while macros...not i'm making code to allow breaking out of loops
2020-06-29T15:02:27Z beach: theseb_: But you are not translating it to Common Lisp are you?
2020-06-29T15:02:43Z Josh_2: afternoon
2020-06-29T15:02:46Z theseb_: phoe: break and continue will be *implemented* in lisp with some kind of goto hack
2020-06-29T15:02:54Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
2020-06-29T15:03:05Z Josh_2: How is everyone?
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2020-06-29T15:03:25Z kinope: Hi
2020-06-29T15:03:34Z theseb_: beach: i'm translating it to my little mini common-lisp-ish implementation i created
2020-06-29T15:03:37Z phoe: theseb_: you can implement C-like BREAK and CONTINUE with returning from Lisp blocks
2020-06-29T15:03:44Z phoe: if you have BLOCK and RETURN-FROM, that is
2020-06-29T15:03:50Z beach: theseb_: Yeah, that's what I though.
2020-06-29T15:03:54Z beach: thought
2020-06-29T15:04:48Z beach: theseb_: It is hard to give you advice since we don't know what the language is that your Lisp system implements.
2020-06-29T15:05:09Z phoe: (block break (loop ... do (block continue ...)))
2020-06-29T15:05:12Z theseb_: What is beautiful is that "if" (or "cond" if you prefer) is really the core fundamental flow control construct in lisp....seems cool to build off that if possible as a challenge
2020-06-29T15:05:22Z phoe: and then (return-from continue) or (return-from break)
2020-06-29T15:05:34Z theseb_: i'll have to think about it
2020-06-29T15:05:53Z theseb_: beach: thanks...i think i got enough already to go beat my head against the wall about this some more ;)
2020-06-29T15:05:55Z phoe: theseb_: it's the fundamental block of control everywhere, I don't think it's all that different in C or Java
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2020-06-29T15:06:24Z theseb_: beach: Bike was the first to open my mind to the possibilities...he's helpful
2020-06-29T15:06:25Z phoe: except C/Java don't implement their iteration constructs as macros, so you can't see the nitty gritty details like you can by macroexpanding DO or DOLIST or LOOP
2020-06-29T15:06:34Z theseb_: well everyone is too of course
2020-06-29T15:06:38Z theseb_: love this channel
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2020-06-29T15:08:01Z theseb_: phoe: you are right i don't know how C implements loops...however...i'm compiling to lisp so it wouldn't matter how they did it for my purposes
2020-06-29T15:08:25Z phoe: theseb_: and you aren't supposed to know
2020-06-29T15:08:29Z theseb_: phoe: actually i do know how they do it roughly speaking...C is compiled to assembly and assembly has jump instructions
2020-06-29T15:08:38Z kinope: Do common lisp's hash tables scale well, up to say 10 factorial number of elements?
2020-06-29T15:08:38Z phoe: "how C implements loops" is already compiler knowledge
2020-06-29T15:08:41Z theseb_: phoe: jump = goto
2020-06-29T15:08:43Z theseb_: boom
2020-06-29T15:09:23Z phoe: kinope: that's 3.7 million elements... I guess? try to benchmark and see for yourself
2020-06-29T15:09:28Z beach: kinope: As usual, it depends on the implementation.  But with a reasonable implementation there hsould be no problem.
2020-06-29T15:09:33Z phoe: theseb_: Lisp's GOTO is much better, thankfully
2020-06-29T15:09:46Z kinope: never mind I just realised I don't need a brute force approach
2020-06-29T15:09:55Z kinope: okay thanks anyway
2020-06-29T15:10:09Z phoe: kinope: that's the real efficiency booster :D
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2020-06-29T15:10:54Z phoe: theseb_: the C GOTO doesn't unwind the stack, Lisp's GO does - that makes it more useful
2020-06-29T15:11:09Z phoe: in addition, C doesn't support non-local GOTO whereas Lisp does - that makes it even more useful
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2020-06-29T15:11:49Z phoe: that's the basis e.g. for the existence of the Lisp condition system
2020-06-29T15:12:35Z beach: Josh_2: How we are is pretty much off topic.  But I can tell you that I worked part of the day on part 2 of my presentations for the online Lisp meeting entitled "Creating a Common Lisp implementation".  And I am making progress on thinking these things through.  Much of the stuff has been intuition on my part without any formal description.
2020-06-29T15:13:13Z Josh_2: There is a lisp meeting?
2020-06-29T15:13:26Z theseb_: phoe: lisp does things The Right Way
2020-06-29T15:13:51Z phoe: theseb_: this thing, yes, is very much The Right Way to do flow control
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2020-06-29T15:14:06Z phoe: there's other parts that are debatable, but I consider Lisp's GO/RETURN-FROM/THROW to be really really nice
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2020-06-29T15:14:15Z phoe: Josh_2: a cyclic Online Lisp Meeting, yes
2020-06-29T15:14:20Z Josh_2: a talk on creating a common lisp implementation sounds very interesting
2020-06-29T15:14:33Z beach: Josh_2: Part 1 has not been streamed yet.
2020-06-29T15:14:39Z beach: In a week, I think?
2020-06-29T15:14:42Z phoe: yes, on Monday
2020-06-29T15:14:44Z easye: Yes, such sustained talk is always interesting.
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2020-06-29T15:14:58Z phoe: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/hekv1y/online_lisp_meeting_4/
2020-06-29T15:15:06Z phoe: easye: sustained?
2020-06-29T15:15:25Z theseb_: Ever heard of Hy?  it is a lisp on top of the python VM just like clojure sits on top of the JVM....My first thought was "why?"....then i remembered lots of machine learning is done with python libraries....if all those people can do that with lisp-ish code...well looks to me like Hy just found its meal ticket to riches
2020-06-29T15:16:18Z phoe: it's Lisp-Flavored Python from what I've read
2020-06-29T15:16:22Z beach: theseb_: That sounds like it would win a prize for the slowest Lisp implementation around.
2020-06-29T15:16:27Z phoe: just like LFE is Lisp-Flavored Erlang
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2020-06-29T15:17:02Z phoe: so it wraps the underlying language in parentheses, that's all
2020-06-29T15:17:27Z kinope: goodnight
2020-06-29T15:17:42Z beach: 'night kinope.
2020-06-29T15:18:41Z beach: theseb_: As I understand it, whenever you need performance in Python, you use modules written in C.  Are you sure that it would not be better to take those modules and use them from Common Lisp directly?
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2020-06-29T15:19:34Z theseb_: beach: well...
2020-06-29T15:20:01Z theseb_: beach: yes if *every* machine learning python library has C componenets you can use
2020-06-29T15:20:17Z beach: Debugging an application using 2 languages is bad enough.  I can't imagine what it would be to debug one that uses 3 languages.
2020-06-29T15:20:24Z theseb_: beach: my guess is pandas, tensorflow, etc. may be written in C but only expose the python wrapper around it
2020-06-29T15:21:02Z theseb_: beach: well this fantasy only works if pandas, tensorflow etc.. are already mature and bulletproof in pythong
2020-06-29T15:21:28Z theseb_: beach:  if zillions of people are doing machine learning those libraries should already be pretty battle hardened
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2020-06-29T15:22:27Z phoe: seems like pandas contains non-trivial amount of Python code, so it's not that easy.
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2020-06-29T15:22:38Z phoe: like, plugging a foreign module using CFFI isn't enough.
2020-06-29T15:22:43Z theseb_: beach: Hy is useful as yet-another-language-layer only if lisp macros add dramatically more wonderfulness to machine language work
2020-06-29T15:24:15Z theseb_: phoe: yea...it probably only works if Hy's data structures are literally Python data structures...otherwise all those conversions will be error prone
2020-06-29T15:24:34Z theseb_: phoe: if that's what you're referring to
2020-06-29T15:26:42Z p_l: beach: unfortunately, some of the most popular ML libs are only really accessible through Python, or through *very* convoluted means through C++
2020-06-29T15:27:08Z p_l: Hy feels to me like much less Lisp than LFE, but I will have to see
2020-06-29T15:27:27Z theseb_: p l: what is LFE?
2020-06-29T15:27:40Z phoe: Lisp Flavored Erlang
2020-06-29T15:27:46Z p_l: Lisp-Flavoured Erlang. A Lisp on BEAM/OTP
2020-06-29T15:27:50Z theseb_: ah
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2020-06-29T16:19:22Z dim: one of the founders of Erlang is a fan of Lisp (Robert Virding), another one was a fan of Prolog (Joe Armstrong) and the main language got its syntax inspiration from Prolog, but then much later Robert did LFE anyway (he's now also doing luerl, a port of lua in Erlang)
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2020-06-29T16:35:20Z p_l: dim: early Erlang was essentially customized Prolog
2020-06-29T16:37:40Z bitmapper: i mean, it got the syntax
2020-06-29T16:37:52Z bitmapper: but not really anything else
2020-06-29T16:38:18Z phoe: early early Erlang was built on top of prolog; modern Erlang only has prologish syntax
2020-06-29T16:38:29Z phoe: and that, in turn, is solved by Elixir and LFE ;)
2020-06-29T16:38:32Z p_l: BEAM is still WAM-derived
2020-06-29T16:38:38Z bitmapper: i HIGHLY doubt that
2020-06-29T16:39:48Z p_l: bitmapper: derived, not a WAM implementation. But the jump between WAM and BEAM isn't that big. Big chunks of code are unrelated to bytecode execution and thus WAM-derived parts
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2020-06-29T16:40:30Z bitmapper: it's missing all the stuff for unification, no?
2020-06-29T16:41:27Z phoe slooooowly opens the door to #lispcafe
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2020-06-29T16:45:27Z p_l: ahhh, WAM was mostly the old JAM
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2020-06-29T16:49:24Z bitmapper: p_l: ?
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2020-06-29T16:49:33Z p_l: bitmapper: pre-BEAM there was JAM
2020-06-29T16:49:39Z p_l: which was based on WAM
2020-06-29T16:49:45Z p_l mixed up few things
2020-06-29T16:49:53Z p_l: though BEAM internals still work on "reductions" :)
2020-06-29T16:50:00Z phoe: p_l: bitmapper: there's free pizza in #lispcafe for everyone who discusses Erlang and Prolog abstract machines!
2020-06-29T16:50:06Z bitmapper: :p
2020-06-29T16:50:15Z p_l: we both know there isn't
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2020-06-29T16:50:28Z p_l got old :|
2020-06-29T16:50:31Z bitmapper: god i'd love some free pizza rn
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2020-06-29T16:50:40Z phoe: p_l: you need to believe
2020-06-29T16:50:51Z p_l: phoe: I just caught myself going "in the good old days"
2020-06-29T16:51:11Z p_l: where the old days are something I actually participated in
2020-06-29T16:51:18Z phoe: p_l: congratulations, you have officially become a Lisp wizard
2020-06-29T16:51:24Z p_l: it's time to be taken behind the barn and get put to pasture
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2020-06-29T16:59:31Z Krystof: that sounds restful
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2020-06-29T17:09:48Z p_l: when you hear "your vacation request might be handled in October", the response "it will be spent 6 feet under" is not fully sarcastic
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2020-06-29T20:04:41Z sveit: hello, i was wondering if anybody knew whether there was a way to treat a pointer to memory as an array in SBCL? the inverse (array as pointer) is possible CFFI-SYS:WITH-POINTER-TO-VECTOR-DATA (which internally calls sb-sys:with-pinned-objects)
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2020-06-29T20:05:11Z phoe: sveit: AFAIK it's impossible.
2020-06-29T20:05:41Z phoe: AFAOL otmostly since Lisp arrays are required to have headers and must follow some memory alignment rules
2020-06-29T20:05:49Z phoe: AFAIK it's mostly because*
2020-06-29T20:05:57Z phoe: but #sbcl might provide more information
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2020-06-29T20:06:44Z sveit: phoe: thanks, i'll try there. why would memory alignment be an issue, I guess you mean relative to the header?
2020-06-29T20:07:05Z phoe: sveit: no idea about that one.
2020-06-29T20:07:23Z sveit: great, thank you.
2020-06-29T20:09:39Z _death: if you control where the pointer points to, you can hack it.. like https://github.com/death/marray
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2020-06-29T20:42:06Z Harag: out of curiosity has anybody ever written a program to scan all the code in quicklisp to see how much of the build in stuff in lisp is really used?
2020-06-29T20:42:44Z Xach: the built-in stuff like what?
2020-06-29T20:42:50Z Xach: (nobody has done that, that i know of)
2020-06-29T20:43:25Z Harag: then 250 odd operators/functions/or whatever they are called
2020-06-29T20:43:54Z Xach: ???
2020-06-29T20:43:58Z Xach: I don't get it, sorry.
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2020-06-29T20:44:50Z Harag: cons,conc,format etc
2020-06-29T20:45:04Z phoe: I assume you could download all of the sources, read them, and count all of the CL symbols that are used in there
2020-06-29T20:45:29Z phoe: Eclector could possibly be bent to do that; I saw someone post some related code not too long ago
2020-06-29T20:45:44Z Harag: any bets on the % usage?
2020-06-29T20:46:51Z phoe: I can bet $2 that for CL:STANDARD it's LEAST-POSITIVE-SINGLE-FLOAT percent
2020-06-29T20:47:30Z phoe: other than that, dunno, IF and PROGN and COND and what not are going to score high for obvious reasons
2020-06-29T20:48:00Z phoe: there'll be a fair share of DEFUN and DEFMACRO and DEFVAR, fewer than IFs though; a single DEFUN can contain multiple IFs and CONDs and such
2020-06-29T20:48:14Z Harag: I am more interested in how much of it is used and not what is used most
2020-06-29T20:48:24Z phoe: 100% of it is used
2020-06-29T20:48:40Z phoe: there are certainly systems that, in some way, utilize all of the standard CL symbols.
2020-06-29T20:49:27Z phoe: which in turn implies that there's no CL symbol that remains unused
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2020-06-29T20:52:52Z Harag: would quicklisp repository be representative of enough of such use?
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2020-06-29T20:53:35Z phoe: what do you mean, "representative" and "enough"?
2020-06-29T20:54:25Z phoe: you can define some percentages, perform your own measurements, and check if the results are "enough" for your definition of "representative"
2020-06-29T20:55:18Z Xach: Harag: quicklisp is a portion of the CL code in use
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2020-06-29T20:55:51Z Xach: There is a lot of code that is not public for various reasons. There is a lot of public code that is not part of Quicklisp for various reasons.
2020-06-29T20:55:54Z Xach: How much of each is very hard to say with any certainty
2020-06-29T20:56:55Z Xach: Something that irritates me is when a project changes in a breaking way and then minimizes the impact by saying something like "i sent patches to every project in Quicklisp", as though those are the only ones that matter
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2020-06-29T20:57:31Z phoe: Xach: these are the only ones that are publicly accessible though, unless you somehow get a list of non-public projects that list their dependencies
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2020-06-29T20:57:59Z phoe: you can't try to fix something you aren't aware of
2020-06-29T20:58:12Z phoe: but anyway, the original question was about QL, so I can certainly say that the Quicklisp repository will be representative of the Quicklisp repository
2020-06-29T20:58:40Z Xach: phoe: For rationalizing a breaking change, paying attention to only Quicklisp is irritating to me.
2020-06-29T20:58:53Z phoe: oh, for *rationalizing*
2020-06-29T20:59:03Z phoe: yes, I understand that
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2020-06-29T20:59:45Z Xach: The same actions put in proper context are not as irritating to me
2020-06-29T21:00:17Z phoe: we need to get some implementation to extend the standard, so (rationalize "remove a few random public accessors from the API package") ;=> "I updated all the Quicklisp projects though!!1"
2020-06-29T21:00:28Z phoe: I wonder if that would be permissible...
2020-06-29T21:00:30Z phoe: clhs rationalize
2020-06-29T21:00:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ration.htm
2020-06-29T21:00:38Z Xach: ha
2020-06-29T21:00:45Z phoe: oh, "should signal an error". welp.
2020-06-29T21:00:56Z phoe: okay then, at least we tried
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2020-06-30T03:12:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-06-30T04:15:14Z alandipert: SBCL appears to return "NIL" for (string nil) but i can't find in clhs where this behavior is specified... is it?
2020-06-30T04:15:49Z beach: It returns the name of a symbol when given a symbol.
2020-06-30T04:16:13Z beach: clhs string
2020-06-30T04:16:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_string.htm
2020-06-30T04:16:33Z alandipert: oh right, nil is a symbol :-)
2020-06-30T04:16:56Z alandipert: thanks
2020-06-30T04:17:07Z beach: Sure.
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2020-06-30T07:14:41Z prxq: good morning! Is a common-lisp.net admin around?
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2020-06-30T07:15:51Z easye: prxq: responding in #common-lisp.net ...
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2020-06-30T07:57:45Z Harag: morngin
2020-06-30T07:57:48Z Harag: +g
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2020-06-30T08:02:50Z Harag: I was trying to do a function symbol count on alisp file just using read naively, but I would like to stop read from looking up symbols...ie only give me raw sexp '(car (list 1), do no prosessing, would it be possible?
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2020-06-30T08:03:57Z doomlist3: is smalltalk a lisp?
2020-06-30T08:04:08Z doomlist3:  i m learning it
2020-06-30T08:04:23Z phoe: doomlist3: no, it's not
2020-06-30T08:04:35Z phoe: it is, however, an image-based programming language, just like Lisp
2020-06-30T08:04:56Z phoe: Harag: what do you mean, stop read from looking up symbols?
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2020-06-30T08:05:21Z phoe: if you have a file containing a string "(defun foo (x y) (+ x y))", then what should it return?
2020-06-30T08:05:49Z Harag: '(defun foo (x y) (+ x y)) so I can just walk the sexp
2020-06-30T08:05:57Z phoe: ...but that's exactly what READ does
2020-06-30T08:06:24Z phoe: (car (read-from-string "(defun foo (x y) (+ x y))")) ;=> DEFUN
2020-06-30T08:06:27Z Harag: but it tries to intern package:some-symbol and then cant find the package
2020-06-30T08:07:13Z phoe: oh right, that's correct, and one of the common issues that people encounter when trying to read Lisp code like that
2020-06-30T08:09:00Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1823#1823
2020-06-30T08:09:17Z phoe: that's how I used eclector to read symbols from unknown packages
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2020-06-30T08:18:18Z Harag: thanx
2020-06-30T08:19:22Z flip214: phoe: did you ever try to redefine #\: as a symbol-character and parse package names out later on?
2020-06-30T08:19:52Z phoe: flip214: is that portable?
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2020-06-30T08:20:31Z pve: phoe: that's pretty cool, thanks for showing
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2020-06-30T08:22:39Z phoe: clhs 2.3.5
2020-06-30T08:22:39Z specbot: Valid Patterns for Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ce.htm
2020-06-30T08:22:52Z phoe: flip214: I don't know if it's possible to tell the reader that #\: should not be interpreted as a package marker.
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2020-06-30T08:26:40Z beach: doomlist3: There is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp".  In fact, several people who invent their own language for some reason want it to be "a Lisp", and some of them come here to convince us that it is.
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2020-06-30T08:30:03Z beach: flip214: There is really no reason not to use Eclector these days.  We should stamp out implementation-specific readers. :)
2020-06-30T08:34:29Z Harag: flip214: I am trying (set-syntax-from-char #\: #\' table2) now
2020-06-30T08:35:10Z phoe: Harag: but that will break foo:bar into foo 'bar
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2020-06-30T08:36:16Z phoe: likely not what you want because (foo:bar) and (foo 'bar) will become indistinguishable
2020-06-30T08:36:18Z beach: Harag: There is really no reason not to use Eclector for this kind of stuff.
2020-06-30T08:36:28Z Harag: ok
2020-06-30T08:36:36Z beach: Harag: It was written precisely to do this kind of stuff.
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2020-06-30T08:53:30Z Harag: phoe: that code compiles fine but when you run the test there is :The function ECLECTOR.BASE:RECOVER is undefined
2020-06-30T08:54:18Z phoe: Harag: wait a second
2020-06-30T08:54:43Z phoe: eclector.base:recover? where does that come from
2020-06-30T08:55:04Z Harag: then handler-bind
2020-06-30T08:55:09Z scymtym: only in recent versions
2020-06-30T08:55:11Z phoe: oh, right
2020-06-30T08:55:15Z phoe: (ql:update-all-dists)
2020-06-30T08:55:24Z scymtym replied without reading any context
2020-06-30T08:55:31Z Harag: ok
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2020-06-30T09:00:02Z Harag: beach: ...how ironic, my little sexp parser crashes when trying to pars a loop in the sexp...roflma
2020-06-30T09:00:14Z phoe: what sort of loop?
2020-06-30T09:00:24Z Harag: +y
2020-06-30T09:00:24Z phoe: like cl:loop?
2020-06-30T09:00:29Z Harag: yes
2020-06-30T09:00:35Z phoe: why?
2020-06-30T09:00:54Z Harag: iets my fault
2020-06-30T09:03:36Z Harag: my sexp parser does not like (KEY NIL . REST)
2020-06-30T09:03:48Z phoe: why?
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2020-06-30T09:03:53Z phoe: it's a normal consing dot
2020-06-30T09:04:18Z Harag: phoe: because I mostlikely wrote it badly
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2020-06-30T09:04:59Z beach: Harag: Are you saying that you are using something other than Eclector and that fails?
2020-06-30T09:05:24Z Harag: I am trying to process what I get from eclector and that fails
2020-06-30T09:05:31Z beach: I see.
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2020-06-30T09:22:31Z Harag: phoe: fyi when eclector reads a lisp file that does readtable stuff it crashes, it does not like ".."
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2020-06-30T09:24:12Z Harag: or maybe it that wile is suppose to crash a reader advanced-readtable-20130720-git/test.lisp
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2020-06-30T09:24:46Z phoe: Harag: AFAIK eclector has its own readtables.
2020-06-30T09:25:30Z phoe: so you'll need to modify the eclector readtable with the proper reader macros, not just the native one
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2020-06-30T10:07:38Z scymtym: eclector does not read files, only individual expressions. reading files with CL semantics must interleave expression reading with processing of toplevel forms which is outside the scope of eclector
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2020-06-30T10:40:27Z pve: Is it possible to write CL in such a way that the source file can be correctly parsed without having to load it or its dependencies? I assume that means no defmacro, ever, but what else?
2020-06-30T10:40:41Z phoe: pve: what do you mean, "parsed"?
2020-06-30T10:40:51Z phoe: read? compiled?
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2020-06-30T10:41:15Z pve: phoe: read, and now that you mention it, why not compiled
2020-06-30T10:41:30Z jackdaniel: compile-file foo
2020-06-30T10:41:48Z phoe: reading doesn't care about DEFMACRO, since that comes later
2020-06-30T10:42:05Z phoe: compiling is capable of accepting macros as long as they are defined earlier in the file or already available in the image
2020-06-30T10:42:12Z pve: yeah sorry, what I'm getting at is the possiblity of doing some kind of static analysis
2020-06-30T10:42:36Z pve: I'm not explaining it very well, sorry
2020-06-30T10:43:00Z phoe: it's non-trivial
2020-06-30T10:43:23Z phoe: first is the issue that Harag mentioned earlier - if you try to inspect code from the outside, you don't have packages into which you attempt to intern symbols
2020-06-30T10:43:33Z phoe: reading foo:bar is an error when there's no package FOO
2020-06-30T10:43:42Z pve: I figured interning would be a problem
2020-06-30T10:44:03Z phoe: second, macroexpanding stuff is non-trivial, since you need to evaluate macro functions in order to be able to macroexpand stuff
2020-06-30T10:44:36Z phoe: so either you do that, and you are no longer "outside" that code, or you need some external information about how macros work and what do the macro arguments mean
2020-06-30T10:45:29Z pve: but suppose I only ever use tha standard macros, and never define my own?
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2020-06-30T10:46:30Z jackdaniel: or you may do live analysis
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2020-06-30T10:46:54Z jackdaniel: i.e load the program and have the analysis tool load on top of that
2020-06-30T10:47:49Z jackdaniel: https://courses.cs.northwestern.edu/325/exercises/critic.php#critic – lisp critic is a code analysis tool
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2020-06-30T10:48:28Z jackdaniel: you may take inspiration from it
2020-06-30T10:48:51Z pve: hmm that's interesting
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2020-06-30T10:57:17Z Harag: ("DEFUN" 25798) used in what I have in my quicklisp dists
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2020-06-30T10:57:37Z Harag: top of the list in usage count
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2020-06-30T10:58:55Z Harag: then its ("AND" 23703)
2020-06-30T10:59:02Z scymtym: pve: i did some static analysis work with eclector and other tools, but i currently don't have time to continue: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/style-check.html
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2020-06-30T11:00:17Z pve: scymtym: nice thanks, I'll have a look
2020-06-30T11:02:06Z Harag: ("COPY-STRUCTURE" NIL)
2020-06-30T11:04:55Z phoe: what's COPY-STRUCTURE?
2020-06-30T11:05:02Z phoe: ooooh
2020-06-30T11:05:44Z phoe: I assume this is because all structures get their own copiers for free because of DEFSTRUCT :COPIER
2020-06-30T11:05:58Z Harag: ("CAR" 3458)
2020-06-30T11:06:02Z pve: mainly I'm exploring if there's anything to gain from having a regular syntax in my smalltalk-inspired language (built on top of lisp) in terms of linting or automated refactoring tools etc
2020-06-30T11:06:14Z pve: I feel a macro-like facility would make such things much harder
2020-06-30T11:06:22Z Harag: ("FIRST" 3185)
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2020-06-30T11:06:53Z phoe: Harag: could you paste the whole list online somewhere?
2020-06-30T11:07:19Z jackdaniel: ("NULL" T)
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2020-06-30T11:08:45Z Harag: phoe: I would paste the code to read your own quicklisp, but its very ugly and most likely full of false positives
2020-06-30T11:09:06Z Harag: ("NULL" 3176)
2020-06-30T11:09:08Z phoe: Harag: sure, it's always something
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2020-06-30T11:19:51Z Harag: phoe: check memos
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2020-06-30T11:27:14Z jackdaniel: idea for an extension: sealed packages. compiled in one compilation unit without possibility to access internal symbols. then compiler could optimize them having in mind, that only exported symbols are accessible from the user code
2020-06-30T11:27:36Z jackdaniel: I just thought of it, there might be some basic flaws in this idea :)
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2020-06-30T11:33:05Z Harag: ("SEVENTH" 6)... so close just one more needed
2020-06-30T11:39:15Z Harag: ("EVAL" 887)
2020-06-30T11:39:41Z Harag: sorry thats the last one I will post, just thought it was interesting
2020-06-30T11:41:10Z dlowe: If I were to make a toy lisp, I would definitely have first-class environments, at least for symbols, in order to facilitate stuff like reading in code and analyzing it
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2020-06-30T11:44:14Z Harag: dlowe: http://metamodular.com/SICL/environments.pdf
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2020-06-30T12:30:54Z pve: dlowe: in my toy language, I currently read source files to figure out what they provide and they depend on, so that I can just give it a directory full of source files and have them load automatically in the correct order.
2020-06-30T12:31:14Z pve: I know it's kind of shallow, but soo convenient
2020-06-30T12:32:32Z dlowe: yeah, there was a utility that did that for CL using per-file packages
2020-06-30T12:32:33Z pve: I never want to edit an asd file again, and it makes me really want to explore this kind of analysis further
2020-06-30T12:32:57Z pve: you mean the inferred-system thing
2020-06-30T12:33:00Z dlowe: yeah
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2020-06-30T12:49:21Z pve: my approach is similar, except external dependencies (alexandria etc) need to be explicitly specified, but internal dependencies are automatically deduced by (naively) looking at the code (like, if a file instantiates a class foo, then the file containing foo gets loaded before that file)
2020-06-30T12:51:24Z kinope: Hey all! I have a problem that requires a code walker, I have made a very add-hoc one atm that also expands some expressions for me at compile-time but it's not very flexible and only expands expressions at the first level of any tree of expressions. While I have an interest in understanding how to make a good one, doing that right now is at
2020-06-30T12:51:24Z kinope: cross-purposes with the problem I'm working on. Do you have any library recommendations?
2020-06-30T12:52:17Z beach: You can use MichaelRaskin's Agnostic Lizard.
2020-06-30T12:53:07Z kinope: Thank you :)
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2020-06-30T14:02:03Z Josh_2: Afternoon
2020-06-30T14:02:14Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-06-30T14:11:50Z junkicide: hello, newbie here. could someone explain why (let ((me "dance with you")) me) give "dance with you" as output? what is the significance of adding the me at the end?
2020-06-30T14:12:20Z junkicide: this is an example from learn x in y minutes
2020-06-30T14:12:24Z Josh_2: the form is evaluating to the value of the variable me
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2020-06-30T14:12:33Z Josh_2: which you bind to "dance with you" in the let form
2020-06-30T14:12:41Z Bike: (let ((me "dance with you")) ...body...) means to bind the variable ME to that string within the body
2020-06-30T14:12:54Z Bike: ME in the body means to read the value of that variable
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2020-06-30T14:13:30Z junkicide: oh I see, that clarifies it for me. thanks
2020-06-30T14:13:36Z Bike: you could also do e.g. (let ((me "dance with you")) (length me)) in which case the variable will be read, and the value passed to the LENGTH function, and then you'll get 14
2020-06-30T14:14:04Z junkicide: oh, that's a good example thanks
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2020-06-30T14:23:11Z phoe: annnnnnd they left
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2020-06-30T14:47:31Z jasom: so my PoC integration of lisp with Geany just got a lot of attention on /r/Common_Lisp; I'll dust it off and give it a spin tonight to remind myself of what the status of it is.
2020-06-30T14:49:26Z jasom: stylewarning: assuming you are /u/stylewarning, irc is probably a better place to reach me than via reddit DMs
2020-06-30T14:49:44Z phoe: jasom: AFAIK he is
2020-06-30T14:50:06Z jasom: oops, that should have been a privmsg.
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2020-06-30T15:03:06Z asarch: What programming language is this? http://paste.scsys.co.uk/592018
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2020-06-30T15:03:33Z phoe: huh, definitely not Common Lisp
2020-06-30T15:03:51Z asarch: A company is hiring programmers to work in Israel
2020-06-30T15:09:02Z p_l: is it in any way an industrial automation company?
2020-06-30T15:09:55Z p_l: though reasonable chance they just threw shit together to make people interested
2020-06-30T15:10:14Z p_l ponders how to subtly make reference to lisp in his company logo
2020-06-30T15:10:27Z Josh_2: Put an alien somewhere
2020-06-30T15:10:31Z Josh_2: very subtle xD
2020-06-30T15:11:30Z p_l: thought of subtle relief of lisp code in background, or maybe cons visualisation
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2020-06-30T15:12:21Z phoe: p_l: (Company . Logo)
2020-06-30T15:12:26Z p_l: haha
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2020-06-30T15:14:38Z _death: you may wrap it in earmuffs to indicate specialness
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2020-06-30T15:18:01Z phoe: or maybe "Company #.(sb-sys:without-interrupts (loop)) Logo"
2020-06-30T15:18:20Z Josh_2: Thats about as subtle as my idea phoe
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2020-06-30T15:20:46Z phoe: Josh_2: you can't manage to notice the lisp reference if you can't read the company logo
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2020-06-30T15:30:53Z rpg debugging ECL https://pastebin.com/PZ31TrDG 😢
2020-06-30T15:31:42Z phoe: huh! I assume that there *is* a closing paren there
2020-06-30T15:31:55Z phoe: but nonetheless ECL misbehaves
2020-06-30T15:32:10Z phoe: or am I misinterpreting?
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2020-06-30T15:45:53Z jasom: p_l: yeah, a Gentle style cons diagram incorporated into the logo might work
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2020-06-30T15:52:52Z lithper: What's the best library for resizing jpegs in CL?  I've looked at cl-jpeg but it doesn't support all jpeg formats.  Is lisp-magick-wand the way to go?
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2020-06-30T15:55:17Z phoe: lithper: maybe #lispgames might tell you more, they tend to do a lot of image processing
2020-06-30T15:55:28Z phoe: axion: ^
2020-06-30T15:55:37Z phoe: maybe you know some solution
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2020-06-30T16:00:04Z rpg: @phoe: You are right -- the file is loadable in the REPL, just not when loaded on the command line.
2020-06-30T16:00:36Z rpg: phoe: Plus, ugh -- throwing away any possible state. :-(
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2020-06-30T16:05:05Z rpg: Aha! It's a compiler error!  Before I  (require 'cmp) that runs fine in the REPL.  Afterwards, it errors out.
2020-06-30T16:07:01Z phoe gasp
2020-06-30T16:13:11Z lithper: phoe: Thank you!
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2020-06-30T17:32:59Z madrik: Greetings.
2020-06-30T17:33:40Z madrik: I want to set up a Gitlab CI pipeline for a Lisp project of mine that uses FiveAM for testing.
2020-06-30T17:33:44Z madrik: How should I proceed?
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2020-06-30T17:36:20Z jackdaniel: what did you try already?
2020-06-30T17:37:55Z madrik: IIRC, I need to set up a Runner, which can be either a container or a virtual machine.
2020-06-30T17:38:11Z madrik: I already have an AWS Lightsail instance.
2020-06-30T17:38:30Z madrik: Would that be alright, or is a container recommended?
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2020-06-30T17:43:04Z jackdaniel: vm should be fine
2020-06-30T17:43:48Z madrik: jackdaniel: Thanks.
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2020-06-30T18:52:43Z Harag: is there ever a good reason to use a KEYWORD symbol as a slot accessor?
2020-06-30T18:53:39Z Harag: or what is the worst that could happen except that your accessor gets clobbered or you clobber some one elses?
2020-06-30T18:54:00Z Bike: that's pretty much the worst thing that could happen, i think
2020-06-30T18:54:05Z Bike: using keywords as function names is legal
2020-06-30T18:55:43Z Harag: is it fround appon in general?
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2020-06-30T18:56:03Z Bike: i wouldn't do it in like, a library
2020-06-30T18:56:08Z Bike: might be convenient in the repl or something
2020-06-30T19:00:01Z pve: Harag: are you looking to make the accessors more conveniently available, or do you have some other use case in mind? just curious..
2020-06-30T19:00:02Z Harag: i have an or something in mind...
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2020-06-30T19:00:49Z Harag: (getx (list :eish 1) :eish)
2020-06-30T19:01:03Z Harag: (getx some-object-instance :eish)
2020-06-30T19:02:08Z Harag: just uniform syntax if I want to swop out "data objects" at some time
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2020-06-30T19:03:33Z Harag: I am waiting for some one to tell me that a macro could do it better...but i cant see it and I sux at writing macros
2020-06-30T19:04:03Z pve: Harag: i see, but does it have to be keywords? your example would work with 'eish as well, no?
2020-06-30T19:05:01Z pve: or do you anticipate many different packages?
2020-06-30T19:05:08Z Harag: yes but if you want to persist that "data object" and share/use it from different packages it starts getting interesting
2020-06-30T19:07:11Z pve: you would prefer to have the property universal, and the result only depend on the data object
2020-06-30T19:08:34Z Harag: I suppose I could swop/remove the package when I perist
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2020-06-30T19:09:47Z Harag: but the big pain is having to rewrite "accessing code" if you change your mind about the underlaying data object.
2020-06-30T19:10:09Z Bike: i don't understand the problem here. you have this "getx" function that works with both plists and objects
2020-06-30T19:10:26Z Bike: but plists don't have to have keywords either, you can just use symbols, and you probably ought to
2020-06-30T19:10:35Z Bike: symbols -> non-keyword symbols
2020-06-30T19:12:00Z Harag: yes bike but lets say you write (list 'eish 1) to a file in one app/packaeg then the package is written with it
2020-06-30T19:12:42Z Harag: when you use read in another package that package needs to load the package that wrote it to resolve the symbol
2020-06-30T19:13:02Z Bike: sure does
2020-06-30T19:13:45Z Bike: do you expect to be able to de/serialize standard-objects without having to load the class definition?
2020-06-30T19:14:15Z Harag: so in my mind (list :employee-no 1) is better than (list 'employee-no 1)
2020-06-30T19:14:36Z Harag: no not standard objects just plist
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2020-06-30T19:15:30Z Bike: why do standard object accessors matter then
2020-06-30T19:16:22Z pve: Harag: is it because you convert the plist to a class at some point?
2020-06-30T19:16:32Z pve: i mean instance
2020-06-30T19:16:51Z Harag: at this stage just a struct in some cases
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2020-06-30T19:19:00Z Harag: Bike: the standard accessor is just for me because I hate having to go back and do that type of code change
2020-06-30T19:19:40Z Bike: mostly i don't understand this application design where you want to deserialize objects without having infrastructure for that specific type of object, which would presumably be in the code with whatever package
2020-06-30T19:21:48Z Harag: if I wanted infrastructure I could add a declaritive definition that has everything to do with the data and nothing to do with how the data is represented in lisp
2020-06-30T19:23:58Z pve: Harag: perhaps you could write explicit getx methods for each class and property you intend to read, mapping the :eish property indicator to whatever slot or accessor that produces that property
2020-06-30T19:27:02Z Harag: Bike: dont think of it as deserializing objects think of it as passing raw data in the sense op key value pairs '(:key-1 atom :key-1 atom ...)
2020-06-30T19:27:20Z Harag: op=of
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2020-06-30T22:52:21Z Xach: bitbucket turning off mercurial tomorrow is going to cause me some problems.
2020-06-30T22:52:33Z Xach: There are 28 projects that still use it.
2020-06-30T22:54:50Z phoe: are they backed up somewhere?
2020-06-30T22:56:08Z Xach: I have checkouts, but I don't know enough about mercurial to say if that's a backup or not.
2020-06-30T22:56:24Z phoe: neither do I, I'm afraid
2020-06-30T22:57:19Z phoe: it seems that a clone of a repository works the same as in git, so the commit history will be preserved that way
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2020-06-30T22:58:46Z Xach: i guess i can ignore it until authors tell me new locations
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2020-06-30T23:16:12Z _roman_: How about importing them into GitHub? https://help.github.com/en/github/importing-your-projects-to-github/importing-a-repository-with-github-importer
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