2020-04-01T00:00:48Z lxbarbosa: Ive read that Haskell is way different of mainstream language but not that different of Lisp
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2020-04-01T00:03:11Z Bike: haskell is an interesting language, sure
2020-04-01T00:03:34Z Bike: "must know about" sounds like some kind of weird fad advertisement so i'm not going to say that
2020-04-01T00:03:55Z no-defun-allowed: 10 Lisp features you must know about: number #5 will surprise you
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2020-04-01T00:06:29Z fe[nl]ix: hahaha
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2020-04-01T00:07:51Z lxbarbosa: no-defun-allowed: hehe
2020-04-01T00:08:10Z lxbarbosa: Bike: interesting is enough... thanks!
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2020-04-01T00:11:53Z lxbarbosa: no-defun-allowed: https://www.reddit.com/r/LispMemes/comments/fq4q2g/i_made_this_for_my_friend_and_thought_i_should/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
2020-04-01T00:11:53Z lxbarbosa: :D
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2020-04-01T00:12:38Z stylewarning: lxbarbosa: I think understanding strictly typed parametric polymorphism and how lazy evaluation affects API boundaries is important
2020-04-01T00:14:00Z lxbarbosa: stylewarning: hm, cool. I hope there are epub Haskell books, not in the mood of touching lately :D
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2020-04-01T00:31:23Z loli: lxbarbosa: there are tools lisp could easily steal, ADTS are an example (and thus deriving functions over this structure)
2020-04-01T00:32:06Z loli: probably stealing effect systems would be nice. Though they are quite primitive in Haskell
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2020-04-01T00:40:34Z White_Flame: stylewarning: please try to sell the keyboards to people with a lispm that need one
2020-04-01T00:40:43Z White_Flame: instead of the idiot keyboard hoarders
2020-04-01T00:41:11Z loli: are people selling the space cadet?
2020-04-01T00:42:21Z White_Flame: ye olde original?  well, just on the used market
2020-04-01T00:43:03Z White_Flame: if you can find one obv
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2020-04-01T00:46:07Z lxbarbosa: loli: I expect lots of fun learning it :)
2020-04-01T00:46:30Z loli: lxbarbosa: you will! I find it's a nice language, though beware you might just taking harder languages like Coq or F*
2020-04-01T00:46:35Z loli: stay away!
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2020-04-01T02:55:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-01T03:02:03Z jeosol: Good morning beach
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2020-04-01T03:20:10Z sjl: When using &key (foo some-form foo-supplied?) in a destructuring-bind, shouldn't foo-supplied be bound to true if :foo is given in the call and false otherwise?
2020-04-01T03:20:21Z sjl: like, what am I missing here? https://paste.stevelosh.com/7c301026ece2efc869e5ce253f5ff56f98bbf307
2020-04-01T03:20:51Z sjl: Why is SBCL binding the second value of the initform to the -supplied variable?
2020-04-01T03:21:15Z Bike: looks like a bug to me.
2020-04-01T03:21:43Z sjl: okay, I'm not losing my mind then
2020-04-01T03:22:46Z Bike: and of course if you use just a lambda list it's (:FOO NIL) properly
2020-04-01T03:23:03Z Bike: ah, ha ha, you can see it in the expansion
2020-04-01T03:23:28Z Bike: it uses sb-int:binding* which can bind multiple values, and uses multiple values for the variables
2020-04-01T03:23:33Z sjl: yeah, it works properly in vanilla lambda lists -- only seems to be an issue in destructuring-bind
2020-04-01T03:24:43Z sjl: alright, I'll file a bug
2020-04-01T03:28:06Z Bike: i think i have a fix
2020-04-01T03:28:19Z Bike: guessing pretty hard, though, i guess an sbcl dev can probably fix it better
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2020-04-01T03:35:44Z sjl: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1870004
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2020-04-01T07:14:15Z phoe: Where in CLHS are FTYPE lambda lists defined?
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2020-04-01T07:16:34Z phoe: found it, System Class FUNCTION
2020-04-01T07:17:48Z beach: That's not considered a lambda list.
2020-04-01T07:18:19Z phoe: yes, correct
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2020-04-01T08:18:21Z amazoniantoad: Hey guys. I'm trying to take two columns and generate a matrix from their multiplication. Could anyone show me how to do this? Currently I'm trying to do (elt (elt matrix i) j) and using setf to set the value. But instead of getting unique values for every cell I wind up getting the exact same row in the matrix
2020-04-01T08:19:04Z no-defun-allowed: Why are you using an array of arrays? Common Lisp has n-dimensional arrays.
2020-04-01T08:19:22Z amazoniantoad: oh
2020-04-01T08:19:29Z amazoniantoad: So what should I be doing instead?
2020-04-01T08:19:34Z no-defun-allowed: And are you talking about matrix multiplication, element-wise multiplication, or...?
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2020-04-01T08:19:43Z amazoniantoad: yes, element-wise
2020-04-01T08:20:08Z no-defun-allowed: And you have two 2d arrays you want to multiply the elements of?
2020-04-01T08:20:23Z amazoniantoad: No. Two 1D arrays and I want to create from that a 2D array
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2020-04-01T08:21:32Z no-defun-allowed: How do you get a 2D array from two 1D arrays? Something like O_i,j = M_i × N_j?
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2020-04-01T08:22:23Z amazoniantoad: yes
2020-04-01T08:24:08Z no-defun-allowed: Well, to make a 2 dimensional array, you can use (make-array (list columns rows)), and then (setf (aref <array> column row) value) to set an element of that array.
2020-04-01T08:24:32Z phoe: amazoniantoad: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1724#1724
2020-04-01T08:24:36Z pjb: amazoniantoad: and also, there's #clschool for basic questions like that.
2020-04-01T08:24:52Z amazoniantoad: Thanks for letting me know pjb
2020-04-01T08:25:12Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, like that.
2020-04-01T08:25:16Z pjb: http://cliki.net/IRC
2020-04-01T08:25:32Z amazoniantoad: thanks guys
2020-04-01T08:27:26Z no-defun-allowed: (Using Petalisp, you could write (defun cross-multiply (a b) (petalisp:α #'* (petalisp:reshape a (petalisp:τ (i) (i 0))) (petalisp:reshape b (petalisp:τ (j) (0 j))))). I don't think Common Lisp is very nice for doing n-dimensional array work without some helper functions.)
2020-04-01T08:28:34Z phoe: that's a big step up from simple standard CL functions though
2020-04-01T08:28:51Z no-defun-allowed: True.
2020-04-01T08:29:14Z phoe: I don't think amazoniantoad is a possible client for petalisp if he's still working on getting the basics of 2D arrays done - maybe in a few months, but not yet
2020-04-01T08:29:45Z no-defun-allowed: Writing a step between a JIT-compiling parallel array manipulation DSL and using big loops of (setf aref) is left to the reader.
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2020-04-01T08:44:52Z beach: That's not what I would call "element-wise", but hey.
2020-04-01T08:45:35Z no-defun-allowed: I wouldn't call it element-wise either.
2020-04-01T08:46:08Z no-defun-allowed: amazoniantoad: "element-wise" would probably refer to O_i = M_i + N_i, if I'm not mistaken.
2020-04-01T08:47:00Z Shinmera: indeed it would.
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2020-04-01T08:52:25Z pjb: If you don't want to do it element-wise, you can use map: https://termbin.com/5was
2020-04-01T08:52:43Z pjb: but this involves allocating O(n*m) temporary conses…
2020-04-01T08:56:37Z pjb: Well, you can also use  (map 'vector (lambda (x) (map 'vector (lambda (y) (* x y)) v2)) v1) which should be more efficient allocating temp storage, but still O(m*n) temp space.
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2020-04-01T10:13:05Z LdBeth: (april:april "1 2 3 ∘.× 10 20 30 40")
2020-04-01T10:13:30Z flip214: Can a compiler macro (or normal macro) get the form(s) it's embedded in? SBCL only would work for that use case.
2020-04-01T10:14:25Z LdBeth: I think there's a CLtL2 extension or something
2020-04-01T10:15:48Z phoe: flip214: I don't think so. The only thing available is the environment, and that doesn't contain everything.
2020-04-01T10:16:13Z Shinmera: flip214: that sounds like you're trying something very ugly
2020-04-01T10:16:18Z phoe: https://etc.ruricolist.com/2020/03/15/the-symbol-macrolet-trick/
2020-04-01T10:16:27Z phoe: that could perhaps be used for such communication
2020-04-01T10:16:39Z phoe: but I agree with Shinmera
2020-04-01T10:17:42Z adlai: clhs -
2020-04-01T10:17:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a__.htm
2020-04-01T10:18:47Z adlai: flip214: "The value of - is the form that is currently being evaluated by the Lisp read-eval-print loop." (obviously, doesn't work in files)
2020-04-01T10:23:55Z flip214: adlai: thanks, that won't help
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2020-04-01T10:24:26Z flip214: I've got a function that asks the user a question - and I'd like to determine whether the outer form wants a string, boolean, or number result
2020-04-01T10:24:47Z pjb: flip214: it cannot, and this is for the best.  This is the best feature of lisp macros, not to be able to know anything about the outer form. This is what makes them secure!
2020-04-01T10:25:41Z pjb: flip214: however, there is macrolet (and symbol-macrolet), which can be used in the EXPANSION of an outer macro. (and also flet and labels).
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2020-04-01T10:26:32Z flip214: pjb: yeah, and compiler-let, and similar stuff. I'm just wondering whether there's an easier way - #'<= in the outer form requires a number, string= a string, etc.
2020-04-01T10:26:44Z pjb: flip214: this let you design an outer macro, in which you can have access to a macro.  The outer macro can arrange to give the information needed by the inner macro, even if comes from forms outside of the inner macro (but inside the outer macro, of course).
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2020-04-01T10:27:48Z pjb: flip214: that said you are not allowed to shadow the fbinding of symbols in the CL package, or defining compiler-macros on them.  So you have two ther reason why you won't be able to do that for <= or string=.
2020-04-01T10:28:03Z pjb: flip214: but you can do it for your-own:<= or your-own:string=
2020-04-01T10:30:02Z pjb: flip214: now, I don't think there's any guarantee about the environments for macro-expansion and compiler-macro expansion.  I don't think you could conformingly pass information from a macro to a compiler-macro.  This would have to be checked in the CLHS.
2020-04-01T10:30:41Z pjb: flip214: but once you have a wrapper macro, you don't really need compiler-macro, and this would allow you to do stuff on forms using symbols in the CL package as operators.
2020-04-01T10:30:52Z pjb: flip214: (just code-walk your inner forms, and do whatever you want).
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2020-04-01T10:32:20Z phoe: flip214: the outer form should pass the expected input type to the function, that's the cleanest way I can think of
2020-04-01T10:32:35Z phoe: either that, or bind dynavars
2020-04-01T10:32:40Z phoe: but the latter is ugly
2020-04-01T10:33:16Z LdBeth: write a type inference macro
2020-04-01T10:33:35Z phoe: this escalated quickly
2020-04-01T10:34:36Z no-defun-allowed: What part of [Hindley-Milner equations] do you not understand?
2020-04-01T10:34:59Z flip214: phoe: Yeah, that's what I thought, too... I'd just like to avoid having my own code-walker, there are already too many of them ;/
2020-04-01T10:35:05Z Inline: unless an environment is passed explicitly in the macro
2020-04-01T10:35:28Z LdBeth: well, actually F_omega is required
2020-04-01T10:35:41Z flip214: I hoped that I there's an easy way to see what the outer function is - and then the expected type is easy...
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2020-04-01T10:36:36Z phoe: flip214: if you want a true, absolute hack, use DISSECT at runtime to analyze the stack, figure out which function you were called from, and adjust the typecheck accordingly
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2020-04-01T10:37:04Z phoe: I'd shoot anyone who tried to do that in the code that I maintain
2020-04-01T10:38:18Z LdBeth: I donut think expected type would be easy for lisp
2020-04-01T10:38:31Z flip214: phoe: no, not at runtime, via &environment would be good enough ;)
2020-04-01T10:38:56Z flip214: LdBeth: most functions have input/output types already declared, and in the worst case I have to annotate the symbol
2020-04-01T10:39:17Z Inline: introspect-environment heh
2020-04-01T10:39:20Z phoe: flip214: how about the symbol-macro trick then? you set a symbol-macro in the environment with the expected type that you can then macroexpand in the inner macro
2020-04-01T10:40:56Z LdBeth: flip214: what if the outer function is PRINT
2020-04-01T10:41:45Z LdBeth: or CONS
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2020-04-01T11:10:01Z flip214: LdBeth: the query function will only occur within AND, OR, <=, STRING=, and similar stuff. It's not general-purpose.
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2020-04-01T11:17:27Z flip214: thanks, everybody!
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2020-04-01T11:47:45Z phoe: `AND` and `OR` will already be macroexpanded by the time your form is macroexpanded
2020-04-01T11:51:25Z flip214: phoe: these are not the CL:AND and CL:OR that you're looking for
2020-04-01T11:51:47Z flip214: (that even rhymes! now let's bring it into 19 syllables... ;)
2020-04-01T11:52:03Z Bike: doing something different based on the return type sounds like a job for static typing. which is to say, might be in the wrong language here
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2020-04-01T11:55:09Z flip214: Bike: why? a GF chooses a method based on the input type as well, so I'd see that as some kind of symmetry
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2020-04-01T11:55:51Z Bike: it chooses a method based on the input _object_
2020-04-01T11:56:00Z Bike: the class thereof, but nonetheless it has an actual object to work with
2020-04-01T11:56:08Z Bike: (usually the class, i mean, there are also eql specializers)
2020-04-01T11:56:29Z Bike: since you don't have an output object, doesn't quite work the same way.
2020-04-01T11:56:52Z Bike: if it actually chose a method based on the type, you could indeed have it do different things based on the output type. but that information does not necessarily exist in lisp.
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2020-04-01T12:01:04Z phoe: flip214: ooooh
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2020-04-01T12:05:14Z flip214: Bike: (SATISFIES NUMBERP)
2020-04-01T12:05:31Z Bike: please use words if you want to try to explain something to me
2020-04-01T12:06:35Z phoe: flip214: SATISFIES is not a class
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2020-04-01T12:14:04Z Bike: despite the efforts of the best alchemists i can hire, i haven't yet restored my pineal gland to its ancestral power and so cannot read minds
2020-04-01T12:14:20Z beach: Sad. :(
2020-04-01T12:14:29Z Bike: anyway, things like apply and eval can mess up the concept pretty hard. even just calling something like that at the repl could be a type error for ambiguity
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2020-04-01T12:15:33Z Bike: if you're only using this in specific contexts, you could have those contexts pass along an additional parameter expressing what kind of result is expected, sort of like COERCE
2020-04-01T12:15:58Z phoe: I just had a minor moment of enlightenment
2020-04-01T12:16:12Z phoe: Aren't signals just dynamically-scoped hooks?
2020-04-01T12:16:28Z beach: Signals?
2020-04-01T12:16:35Z Bike: well, handlers, sure.
2020-04-01T12:16:38Z phoe: Or rather - handlers
2020-04-01T12:16:43Z phoe: signals are a means of invoking these hooks.
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2020-04-01T13:32:16Z eeeeeta: gah Closure XML is driving me insane
2020-04-01T13:32:24Z eeeeeta: usocket sockets don't have any kind of line buffering on them, do they?
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2020-04-01T13:41:51Z phoe: eeeeeta: I remember that I had to FINISH-OUTPUT them
2020-04-01T13:42:04Z phoe: so AFAIK they are buffered
2020-04-01T13:42:12Z eeeeeta: phoe, how in the nine hells do I turn the buffering off
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2020-04-01T13:42:43Z eeeeeta: I'm this close to giving up and just using SB-BSD-SOCKETS :p
2020-04-01T13:44:56Z eeeeeta: this is read buffering though
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2020-04-01T14:04:30Z jmercouris: how to collect only on some condition?
2020-04-01T14:04:34Z jmercouris: in a loop
2020-04-01T14:05:18Z beach: when <condition> collect <stuff>
2020-04-01T14:05:25Z jmercouris: (loop for i from 1 to 10 when nil collect nil)
2020-04-01T14:05:29Z jmercouris: wow I didn't think that would actually work
2020-04-01T14:05:36Z jmercouris: next time I'll try in the REPL before asking
2020-04-01T14:05:40Z jmercouris: thank you anyways :-)
2020-04-01T14:05:44Z beach: Why did you not think it would work?
2020-04-01T14:05:59Z jmercouris: I dont know, Loop is still very hard for me to remember everything
2020-04-01T14:06:15Z beach: It is not about remembering.  It is about reading the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2020-04-01T14:06:16Z jmercouris: my mind was stuck on collecting nil for some reason
2020-04-01T14:06:30Z phoe: jmercouris: that's (loop collect (when ...))
2020-04-01T14:06:32Z jmercouris: and I was going to strip out nil at the end via some remove-if
2020-04-01T14:06:47Z phoe: a slightly different construct
2020-04-01T14:06:54Z jmercouris: yeah, rather than using a loop keyword
2020-04-01T14:07:03Z phoe: since then the collecting is unconditional, but the collected value is sometimes NIL
2020-04-01T14:07:11Z jmercouris: exactly what I was doing
2020-04-01T14:07:13Z jmercouris: yes
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2020-04-01T14:07:59Z beach: You can also do things like if <condition> collect <thing> else append <things>
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2020-04-01T14:09:11Z jmercouris: in this case what are you appending to?
2020-04-01T14:09:16Z jmercouris: the end of the list you would be collecting?
2020-04-01T14:09:20Z jmercouris: rather than prepending?
2020-04-01T14:09:54Z d4ryus: jmercouris: there is video from baggers about loop on youtube :) (search for 'Some Common Lisp Loop Macro Examples')
2020-04-01T14:10:15Z beach: Yes, like COLLECT, APPEND adds to the end of the default list.
2020-04-01T14:10:21Z phoe: (loop for i in '((1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6)) if (evenp (car i)) collect i else append i)
2020-04-01T14:10:29Z phoe: ;=> (1 (2) 3 (4) 5 (6))
2020-04-01T14:10:52Z jmercouris: here's something that I've wondered about for some months
2020-04-01T14:11:03Z jmercouris: when we have a list right, and we join two lists together
2020-04-01T14:11:04Z phoe: you can COLLECT INTO if you want named/multiple collectibles
2020-04-01T14:11:10Z beach: d4ryus: It seems that video has been recommended in the past.
2020-04-01T14:11:15Z jmercouris: sometimes the elements are merged, sometimes a list just gets added tot he list
2020-04-01T14:11:21Z phoe: jmercouris: "merged", what do you mean
2020-04-01T14:11:22Z jmercouris: sometimes they can handle a nil first value, sometimes not
2020-04-01T14:11:33Z phoe: we'd need code examples to answer your question
2020-04-01T14:11:41Z jmercouris: let me look in my notes
2020-04-01T14:12:01Z phoe: since "sometimes" is a poor thing to answer, even if it's good tale material
2020-04-01T14:12:35Z beach: I think what jmercouris is referring to is the traditional idea that Common Lisp lists behave like abstract data types, which they don't.
2020-04-01T14:13:01Z jmercouris: that's more or less what I am getting at yes
2020-04-01T14:13:05Z jmercouris: why are the implementation details revealed
2020-04-01T14:13:21Z jmercouris: like I know what is going on underneath, I've read through all of gentle introduction
2020-04-01T14:13:31Z jmercouris: I'm still looking for an example
2020-04-01T14:13:35Z White_Flame: programming was more low level at that time
2020-04-01T14:13:42Z beach: jmercouris: At some point, you need concrete data types to implement abstract ones.  Common Lisp lists give the tools you need to do abstract stuff.
2020-04-01T14:14:16Z beach: jmercouris: And these tools are dirt cheap in terms of performance.
2020-04-01T14:14:17Z Bike: "linked lists have a head and a tail" is fairly anodyne as implementation details go
2020-04-01T14:14:21Z jmercouris: like here's an example
2020-04-01T14:14:25Z jmercouris: (append 'a '(b c d)) -> ERROR
2020-04-01T14:14:25Z White_Flame: and since hardware was constrained, you needed to play games with exact storage mechanisms so as not to blow up ram
2020-04-01T14:14:27Z jmercouris: (append '(b c d) 'a) -> (B C D . A)
2020-04-01T14:14:40Z jmercouris: I get what is going on, but it could just as easily have been written in a smarter way to silently handle the error
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2020-04-01T14:14:47Z jmercouris: why the decision to not do this?
2020-04-01T14:14:49Z Bike: silently handle how?
2020-04-01T14:14:51Z phoe: clhs append
2020-04-01T14:14:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm
2020-04-01T14:14:55Z phoe: "list---each must be a proper list except the last, which may be any object."
2020-04-01T14:14:57Z Bike: like, pretend A is (A)?
2020-04-01T14:15:00Z jmercouris: for example
2020-04-01T14:15:04Z jmercouris: or just return '(b c d)
2020-04-01T14:15:06Z beach: That would be a very bad idea.
2020-04-01T14:15:07Z jmercouris: or return two values or something
2020-04-01T14:15:10Z Bike: why would you want that?
2020-04-01T14:15:17Z beach: Hiding errors.
2020-04-01T14:15:18Z jmercouris: because sometimes we do not want to handle errors
2020-04-01T14:15:21Z jmercouris: I know this is a crazy idea
2020-04-01T14:15:24Z jmercouris: but sometimes we don't care
2020-04-01T14:15:30Z phoe: > because sometimes we do not want to handle errors
2020-04-01T14:15:31Z Bike: well, you can use ignore-errors or something if you want to
2020-04-01T14:15:32Z White_Flame: then the caller would have to do all sorts of extra work everyt time they wanted to use APPEND
2020-04-01T14:15:34Z beach: Then you have the tools to ignore the errors.
2020-04-01T14:15:38Z Bike: baking that into the standard library is gross
2020-04-01T14:15:40Z phoe: yes, ignore-errors
2020-04-01T14:15:44Z Bike: because sometimes we do want errors.
2020-04-01T14:15:45Z jmercouris: sure, I have the tools
2020-04-01T14:15:48Z jmercouris: I am asking for the rationale
2020-04-01T14:15:58Z beach: jmercouris: What everyone told you.
2020-04-01T14:16:01Z Bike: so that when we write wrong code and don't realize it, an error is signaled
2020-04-01T14:16:06Z phoe: if you want to avoid type errors, then you'll want a language that's weakly typed by default
2020-04-01T14:16:30Z Bike: we see the error and go "oh" and fix the code
2020-04-01T14:16:31Z jmercouris: here is another example
2020-04-01T14:16:34Z jmercouris: (nthcdr 4 '(a b c . d)) ; PROBLEM!!! D doesn't have a cdr of nil
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2020-04-01T14:16:58Z jmercouris: I guess it is a decision that had to be made
2020-04-01T14:17:00Z Bike: nthcdr is extremely simply defined as doing cdr n times. why complicate it with whatever hiding you want to do?
2020-04-01T14:17:14Z beach: jmercouris: Again, the language is there to help the programmer find problems in the code.  Not to hide them from him/her.
2020-04-01T14:17:24Z phoe: CL isn't weakly typed unless you decide to (optimize (safety 0)), at which point you can have all the append symbols to lists that you want
2020-04-01T14:17:34Z jmercouris: I'll think about what you all have said
2020-04-01T14:17:45Z White_Flame: also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment
2020-04-01T14:17:46Z jmercouris: I'm not saying I disagree by the way
2020-04-01T14:17:46Z Bike: i know some languages do this but it just frustrates me
2020-04-01T14:17:49Z phoe: except then the standard says that you get what you want, which is undefined behaviour
2020-04-01T14:18:02Z Bike: because the system is set up so i can't fix problems because they're fucking invisible
2020-04-01T14:18:07Z beach: jmercouris: This is stuff you should know since (as I recall) you have been programming professionally for some time.  It is not specific to Common Lisp.
2020-04-01T14:18:10Z jmercouris: Bike: like in Python :-D?
2020-04-01T14:18:15Z Bike: yes, like in python
2020-04-01T14:18:15Z phoe: or in js
2020-04-01T14:18:29Z jmercouris: Yeah, since 2013 professionally
2020-04-01T14:18:48Z jmercouris: still, using a language as a user, doesn't mean you understand the design decisions
2020-04-01T14:18:54Z Bike: lisp does do some implicit coercion stuff and i'm sometimes negative about that, but it's not as bad as in python or whatever, far as i can tell
2020-04-01T14:18:54Z phoe: I can't agree that (append 'a '(b c d)) ;=> :undefined is a good idea
2020-04-01T14:18:57Z beach: jmercouris: You should definitely avoid languages that silently hide problems in application code.
2020-04-01T14:19:13Z phoe: especially since all user code expects that APPEND always returns a list
2020-04-01T14:19:42Z White_Flame: I think "functions should behave consistently and not randomly behave differently while trying to guess at what the user intends" is a reasonable design decision
2020-04-01T14:19:46Z phoe: so suddenly all code that depends on that must stop depending on that, or, hell, it can return :undefined to
2020-04-01T14:19:53Z phoe: too*
2020-04-01T14:19:57Z beach: phoe: Not true: (append '() 3)
2020-04-01T14:20:19Z phoe: beach: wait a second
2020-04-01T14:20:29Z phoe: oh right
2020-04-01T14:20:50Z phoe: ...what surprises me that this is defined behaviour!
2020-04-01T14:21:02Z phoe: "result---an object. This will be a list unless the last list was not a list and all preceding lists were null."
2020-04-01T14:21:05Z jmercouris: Well, there are a lot of people who seem to disagree with you guys, at the very least on accident :-D
2020-04-01T14:21:24Z phoe: well, they can disagree all right
2020-04-01T14:21:25Z jmercouris: Python imports come to mind
2020-04-01T14:21:29Z beach: jmercouris: There is lots of incompetence in software development.
2020-04-01T14:21:32Z White_Flame: that's because they never hit the problems of dealing with attempts at trying to guess user intent
2020-04-01T14:21:44Z White_Flame: python does not behave inconsistently
2020-04-01T14:21:49Z jmercouris: lmao
2020-04-01T14:21:50Z jmercouris: that's a good one
2020-04-01T14:21:59Z phoe: I prefer my code to fail fast, and type errors in dynamic programming are exactly where programs should fail fast
2020-04-01T14:21:59Z White_Flame: and has plenty of errors akin to append's
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2020-04-01T14:22:15Z phoe: since type errors are always the programmer's or the user's fault
2020-04-01T14:22:27Z beach: jmercouris: phoe puts it well.  Incorrect code should fail sooner rather than later.
2020-04-01T14:22:29Z White_Flame: I mean, by your rationale, "print foo" should work in python3, because it should guess tha tyou're using python 2 style
2020-04-01T14:22:41Z jmercouris: oh man, let's not get into that debacle
2020-04-01T14:23:14Z phoe: agreed, let's not go there
2020-04-01T14:24:00Z beach: jmercouris: As an example of making the language help you, it used to be the case that (setq <var> <form>) at the REPL would silently create variable <var> if it did not already exist.  That is a terrible idea, because a spelling mistake in a variable will then go unnoticed.
2020-04-01T14:24:19Z jmercouris: It was also very convenient
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2020-04-01T14:25:02Z jmercouris: but, true, very error prone
2020-04-01T14:25:24Z flip214: I got around my type-derivation by building the reverse path for all forms in a global during compilation, so that a compiler-macro can find its current form and look up what's "above" it
2020-04-01T14:25:35Z beach: jmercouris: I suggest you read the writings of Bertrand Meyer.
2020-04-01T14:25:45Z phoe: flip214: care to share?
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2020-04-01T14:26:13Z jmercouris: beach: which?
2020-04-01T14:26:28Z beach: jmercouris: He formalized something known as "programming by contract" which is basically the idea of catching errors as soon as possible.  Before him, there was a tendency to hide errors.
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2020-04-01T14:27:49Z beach: jmercouris: Start with the Wikipedia article on "Design by contract"
2020-04-01T14:28:03Z jmercouris: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_contract
2020-04-01T14:28:06Z jmercouris: OK
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2020-04-01T14:28:17Z Bike: flip214: if this is a required part of the semantics you might want to make your function a macro instead
2020-04-01T14:28:38Z beach: jmercouris: If you want to be an excellent professional developer, these are things you should definitely know about.
2020-04-01T14:29:05Z jmercouris: yeah, definitely
2020-04-01T14:30:03Z flip214: phoe: the reversal is more or less trivial... and the compiler macro has a (&whole form) which is used in a GETHASH then
2020-04-01T14:30:06Z flip214: no magic at all
2020-04-01T14:30:16Z beach: I know it can be hard to motivate oneself to study these things, especially when one is "lost in a sea of mediocrity" as Dream Theater puts it.
2020-04-01T14:31:10Z jmercouris: at least I don't have to study about Java Beans anymore
2020-04-01T14:31:21Z jmercouris: what I like about this channel is that there are some smart people, and it can be motivating to learn from them
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2020-04-01T14:31:45Z jmercouris: that's actually why I started with CL, I wanted to learn more and more thoroughly understand programming
2020-04-01T14:31:55Z beach: I totally agree.  That's why I hang out here too.  There are some very smart and some very knowledgeable people here.
2020-04-01T14:33:50Z flip214: phoe: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/762caa6f/ is the gist
2020-04-01T14:35:04Z Bike: i never really thought about the "design by contract" metaphor but it's pretty good. when you're explaining something to a friend taking shortcuts and being metaphorical and stuff makes sense since they know you and can guess what you mean and so on. with a contract it has to be interpreted by disinterested lawyers and judges, and a computer cares even less than those people
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2020-04-01T14:37:11Z White_Flame: that's why I refer to it as "attempting to guess the user's intent"
2020-04-01T14:37:32Z White_Flame: which obviously it does not have the data to do correctly
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2020-04-01T14:38:13Z White_Flame: (and obviously doesn't have the intelligence or human empathy to perform it in the first place, even if it did have more data)
2020-04-01T14:38:39Z White_Flame: the intent should be solely in the invocation of the function
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2020-04-01T14:43:11Z beach: Bike: Yes, reading his stuff at the time was an eyeopener for me.  Before that, a program that crashed was considered the worst thing that could happen.  After his writing, we understood that it was better for a program to crash (soon) rather than silently giving the wrong answer.
2020-04-01T14:43:17Z phoe: the collective wisdom of the people who talk here is massive and wonderful - I keep on leaving this IRC session more and more knowledgeable and wise even after years of sitting here
2020-04-01T14:43:44Z phoe: ;; and silently hope that I contribute positively to it while I'm learning more Lisp, too
2020-04-01T14:44:50Z beach: Unix code, for instance, silently gave (gives?) the wrong answers.  One of the rules that RMS established for the GNU project was to avoid that.
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2020-04-01T14:59:54Z sjl_: re: setq autocreating variables and making typos unnoticed, this why I find defmethod not requiring a defgeneric to be annoying
2020-04-01T15:00:13Z beach: I totally agree.
2020-04-01T15:00:33Z beach: I have spent many hours debugging spelling mistakes in DEFMETHOD.
2020-04-01T15:02:15Z sjl_: Or forgetting a package prefix on the method name.  That one is extra fun.
2020-04-01T15:02:28Z beach: Yes, that one too.
2020-04-01T15:05:38Z beach: Interestingly, in the book "Object-Oriented Programming, The CLOS Perspective", one of the authors states that DEFMETHOD was meant to be the primary interface.   I think that phrase shows the age of the book.
2020-04-01T15:07:49Z dlowe: why is that worse than misspelling a function name?
2020-04-01T15:08:48Z beach: If you misspell a function name in DEFUN, and try to call it with the intended name, you get an undefined function error.
2020-04-01T15:09:04Z beach: Same if you misspell it in the function-call form.
2020-04-01T15:09:41Z splittist: dlowe: also, defmethods are supposed to interact based on their name.
2020-04-01T15:09:52Z splittist: shared name, I mean
2020-04-01T15:09:53Z beach: With a generic function, you often get the wrong answer, like when you intended to override an existing method specializing to a subclass.
2020-04-01T15:09:56Z phoe: (defmethod frobnicate ((object foo)) ...) (defmethod fronbicate ((object bar)) ...)
2020-04-01T15:10:13Z phoe: look ma, two different GFs
2020-04-01T15:11:09Z splittist: Some intellisense with completion on defmethod names based on defgenerics already defined, perhaps?
2020-04-01T15:11:54Z dlowe: (defun foo-frobnicate (foo) ...) (defun bar-fornbicate (bar) ...) seems equally likely and bad.
2020-04-01T15:12:04Z dlowe: but if you say so
2020-04-01T15:12:47Z beach: dlowe: (bar-frobnicate ...) will result in an error.
2020-04-01T15:12:59Z splittist: dlowe: if you call BAR-FROBNICATE you get an undefined. If you call FROBNICATE with a BAR, anything could happen, depending on your object hierarchy.
2020-04-01T15:13:01Z dlowe: ah, I see what you mean
2020-04-01T15:13:34Z phoe: dlowe: the compiler will warn you about undefined functions
2020-04-01T15:13:43Z phoe: it won't warn you about undefined GFs
2020-04-01T15:13:56Z beach: But I think it should.
2020-04-01T15:14:01Z phoe: I wish SBCL toggled these warnings back on, or made it toggleable
2020-04-01T15:14:06Z beach: And apparently, SBCL used to warn.
2020-04-01T15:14:07Z splittist: beach: you should get on to that
2020-04-01T15:14:18Z phoe: beach: yes, it used to warn about implicitly creating generic functions
2020-04-01T15:14:28Z beach: splittist: What do you suggest I do?
2020-04-01T15:14:45Z splittist: how about a whole new compiler? How hard could it be?
2020-04-01T15:15:00Z beach: Piece of cake.  I am on it...
2020-04-01T15:15:01Z splittist: And a program editor, of course.
2020-04-01T15:15:16Z splittist: With an OS to fit them together. Next week is fine.
2020-04-01T15:15:53Z beach: Oh, man, I have articles to update.  Can it wait another week?
2020-04-01T15:16:19Z splittist: I'm feeling generous - take 10 days.
2020-04-01T15:16:31Z beach: Whew!  Thanks!
2020-04-01T15:17:18Z Shinmera: splittist: psh, without a web browser this'll never take off
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2020-04-01T16:38:38Z vivit: Is there a way to express the initform of a slot in terms of other slots on the object?
2020-04-01T16:38:59Z adlai: vivit, no, use an :after method to initialize-instance or shared-initialize
2020-04-01T16:39:26Z adlai: clhs shared-initialize
2020-04-01T16:39:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_shared.htm
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2020-04-01T16:44:31Z vivit: Why do you need to specify the accesible slots when you call that function? Doesn't the class definition itself already have those?
2020-04-01T16:44:42Z vivit: Or does this operate on a lower level of abstraction than the class definitions
2020-04-01T16:45:06Z vivit: s/have/specify/
2020-04-01T16:45:47Z Xach: vivit: it's optional
2020-04-01T16:46:16Z Xach: vivit: if you specify the args, they are available as arguments, you can also work from the values in the instance already (in an :after)
2020-04-01T16:46:20Z beach: vivit: There is no such thing as an "accessible slot".  To refer to a slot, you need to have an existing object.  The object does not exist when the initform is evaluated.
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2020-04-01T16:46:26Z jcowan: What are the use cases for returning zero values?  I mean, it's an obvious generalization of more ordinary multiple values, but when would it make sense?
2020-04-01T16:46:46Z _death: you're not suppose to call this function yourself
2020-04-01T16:47:02Z Xach: jcowan: some prefer it to returning nil to indicate "this function has no meaningful return value"
2020-04-01T16:47:07Z Xach: or some other value
2020-04-01T16:47:17Z Xach: "prefer it to nil or some other value" that is.
2020-04-01T16:48:17Z jcowan nods.
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2020-04-01T16:48:29Z jcowan: So the main application is in a context when you don't care what values are returned, then.
2020-04-01T16:48:46Z Xach: jcowan: that's how i've seen it used.
2020-04-01T16:48:54Z jcowan: Makes sense
2020-04-01T16:49:48Z Bike: technically it could also be useful in multiple-value-call, but i've never actually seen that
2020-04-01T16:52:18Z jcowan: I'm arguing against the position that in Lisp, a proper monad implementation should be extended from Haskell's one-arg-one-value functions to n-args-m-values.  It makes little sense to pass zero values to the next element in a bind chain.
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2020-04-01T16:58:12Z pjb: jcowan: one place you definitely want to return zero values, is in "commands". Ie. functions designed to be called on the REPL, as command, (they may ouput some text), but for which you don't want any result to be displayed to keep the REPL clean.
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2020-04-01T16:59:21Z pjb: jcowan: other places, is when you don't want to leak an internal data. Since all expressions return some value, there's always a value returned by default from a function. Sometimes, you want to make sure that default value is not returned, so you add a (values) to return nothing.
2020-04-01T17:00:20Z pjb: jcowan: note that for commands, if you use a function that returns a big data structure, it may take a lot of time and screen space to print it.  This is often when you will take the pain to add the (values) call.
2020-04-01T17:01:25Z Bike: really? i haven't done much haskell programming, but i thought with the semicolon syntax you could write values that weren't bound to anything
2020-04-01T17:04:25Z jcowan: And yet definers seem to mostly return nil, and they are the very essence of nothing-useful-to-return
2020-04-01T17:04:51Z jcowan: Bike: If you mean do-syntax, you can, but that all gets unpacked into calls on map and map-append
2020-04-01T17:05:35Z Xach: defun returning its name has at least one nice use.
2020-04-01T17:05:37Z Bike: well, sure, so analogously youo'd have chains of multiple value call i would think
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2020-04-01T17:13:38Z jcowan: yes
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2020-04-01T17:14:19Z jcowan: I am just not convinced that generalizing monads to multiple args/values (multiple values are the dual of multiple args, passing more than one value to the continuation) is really worth the headache
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2020-04-01T17:14:40Z jcowan: It is shaky to call anything returning multiple values a function (in the math sense)
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2020-04-01T17:14:51Z jcowan: s/shaky/sketchy
2020-04-01T17:14:58Z pjb: jcowan: in CL most definiers return the name that has been defined.
2020-04-01T17:15:11Z pjb: or the thing itself.
2020-04-01T17:15:19Z pjb: (defvar *foo*) #| --> *foo* |#  (defclass foo () ()) #| --> #<standard-class foo> |#
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2020-04-01T17:17:47Z jcowan: sorry, brain fart; I was thinking about returning the name
2020-04-01T17:22:20Z jcowan: In Scheme, definitions are not expressions, just syntactic sugar that can only be used at top level or at the start of a let (vel sim.) block.
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2020-04-01T17:31:43Z Bike: well multiple values are really just a kind of implicit tuple type. the sketchy part is more the implicit coercion of one of those tuples to the primary value in almost all contexts
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2020-04-01T17:37:49Z alandipert: along those lines, coercion of no values to nil sketches me out a bit
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2020-04-01T17:50:27Z vivit: beach: the hyperspec uses the word "accessible"
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2020-04-01T17:51:49Z Bike: vivit: update-instance-for-different-class calls shared-initialize with a slots list of only the new slots, so that slots already in the object are not reinitialized.
2020-04-01T17:52:26Z Bike: vivit: and reinitialize-instance calls it with an empty slot list so that no slots are initialized from initforms
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2020-04-01T17:57:42Z jcowan: The point is that, coercion or not (Scheme doesn't have it), it's possible to implement MVs without reification
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2020-04-01T19:44:01Z aeth: One thing that is not really clear in the conversation (idk if you know it) but in CL, most MV-related things implicitly insert a NIL if there is no argument in the nth position and the nth position is requested. alandipert touched ont his with "coercion of no values to nil".
2020-04-01T19:44:39Z aeth: MV-related things will also tend to drop the extra values, which is less problematic.
2020-04-01T19:45:05Z aeth: I think only multiple-value-call and multiple-value-list don't have this implicit NILness to it.
2020-04-01T19:45:41Z aeth: Of course, (values) is particularly noticable because e.g. (funcall (lambda (x) x) (values)) => NIL whereas (multiple-value-call (lambda (x) x) (values)) is an error.
2020-04-01T19:45:43Z Bike: multiple value call is the only special operator, yes
2020-04-01T19:46:18Z aeth: ((lambda (x) x) (values)) is also NIL, the funcall isn't necessary
2020-04-01T19:52:30Z phoe: ((lambda (x) x) (values)) coerces (values) into a NIL and then calls the lambda on it
2020-04-01T19:52:38Z phoe: that's per normal rules of evaluation
2020-04-01T19:52:59Z phoe: M-V-C is a special form and therefore isn't affected by that
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2020-04-01T20:00:04Z Bike: you can imagine having semantics where every call works like multiple-value-call. then you could have (defun primary-value (&optional value &rest rest) (declare (ignore rest)) value)
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2020-04-01T20:05:11Z phoe: using gethash would be ugly
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2020-04-01T20:17:54Z phoe: why doesn't the Lisp condition system allow signaling arbitrary Lisp objects? what was the rationale for that?
2020-04-01T20:18:08Z phoe: is it that conditions are guaranteed to know how to report themselves?
2020-04-01T20:20:41Z Bike: means you have a type to handle more specific than T
2020-04-01T20:21:09Z Bike: and you can put arbitrary objects in condition slots, so it's no big
2020-04-01T20:21:35Z jcowan: It doesn't?
2020-04-01T20:22:09Z phoe: I'm aware it's no big; I was just curious
2020-04-01T20:22:19Z phoe: the "type to handle more specific than T" is a good reason
2020-04-01T20:22:25Z Bike: jcowan: SIGNAL is defined as having a designator for a condition as an argument, etc
2020-04-01T20:22:40Z phoe: jcowan: you can't signal a 2
2020-04-01T20:24:21Z jcowan: Ah, got it.  I was misled by the term "datum" in the CLHS section for signal
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2020-04-01T20:25:37Z jcowan: In Scheme exceptions and conditions are independent: you can raise any object, and you can use a condition for any purpose.
2020-04-01T20:26:40Z dlowe: I have wondered why it's not that way in CL
2020-04-01T20:28:29Z Bike: i don't know about scheme, but the lisp condition system can basically be defind in terms of the rest of the language, and usually is actually written that way. so why not make it specific to the task, i guess
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2020-04-01T20:30:34Z jcowan: Are condition classes usually implemented as standard classes, or by separate machinery?
2020-04-01T20:31:17Z dlowe: usually as standard classes but it's not portable to rely upon it
2020-04-01T20:31:59Z dlowe: in CLtL2 they are always standard-classes but not in ANSI I think
2020-04-01T20:32:34Z Bike: sbcl has a separate condition-class metaclass, i think
2020-04-01T20:33:23Z Bike: yeah. and condition-class shares common superclasses with standard-class but is otherwise independent
2020-04-01T20:33:33Z dlowe: all sorts of weird restrictions that don't point to anything substantial http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/e_cnd.htm
2020-04-01T20:33:51Z dlowe: I suspect MacLisp or Interlisp just worked that way and we inherited them
2020-04-01T20:34:03Z Bike: i don't know why sbcl has this separate hierarchy, though
2020-04-01T20:34:28Z Bike: other implementations don't
2020-04-01T20:34:35Z phoe: they want to have conditions as early in the build process as possible
2020-04-01T20:34:36Z dlowe: what about cmucl?
2020-04-01T20:34:53Z Bike: phoe: i mean, they're still standard-objects and everything, though.
2020-04-01T20:35:59Z phoe: Bike: wait, conditions aren't standard-objects in sbcl or cmucl
2020-04-01T20:36:14Z phoe: (typep (make-instance 'condition) 'standard-object) ;=> NIL
2020-04-01T20:36:37Z phoe: AFAIK SBCL wants to have conditions early, before CLOS has booted - so they have this whole separate hierarchy for this reason alone
2020-04-01T20:36:47Z phoe: and they boot it early, before CLOS had a chance to boot up
2020-04-01T20:36:58Z Bike: oh, sorry, the classes are standard objects
2020-04-01T20:37:04Z Bike: whoops
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2020-04-01T20:38:32Z Bike: or, well, i'm confused now, arithmetic error has standard-object in its CPL but an actual arithemtic error object isn't a standard object
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2020-04-01T20:39:36Z phoe: you mean the class?
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2020-04-01T20:41:03Z phoe: (mapcar #'class-name (sb-pcl:class-precedence-list (find-class 'arithmetic-error)))
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2020-04-01T20:41:07Z phoe: ;=> (ARITHMETIC-ERROR ERROR SERIOUS-CONDITION CONDITION SB-PCL::SLOT-OBJECT T)
2020-04-01T20:41:11Z phoe: no standard-object there
2020-04-01T20:41:16Z Bike: oh
2020-04-01T20:41:24Z Bike: i was looking at the CPL of condition-class
2020-04-01T20:41:28Z Bike: boy, i'm just confused today, sorry
2020-04-01T20:41:56Z phoe: metaclasses we dive intoooo
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2020-04-02T02:56:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-02T04:19:18Z beach: vivit: Yes, I am sorry.  You are right.  The Common Lisp HyperSpec uses the term "accessible".
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2020-04-02T04:20:34Z beach: vivit: I am not sure you got a good answer, but the initform is executed before the instance is created, and accessing the slot either with SLOT-VALUE or a slot reader requires access to the instance.  That's why you can't refer to a slot in the initform.
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2020-04-02T11:35:06Z lonjil: anyone here ever read any of the books by Nils M. Holm? He has a few lisp books and I was thinking of maybe buying some of them, because the topics seem interesting.
2020-04-02T11:35:32Z ecraven: I've read some, I found them interesting
2020-04-02T11:37:07Z ecraven: hm.. I think I just mistook nils holm for doug hoyt
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2020-04-02T11:37:48Z jcowan: He's the Scheme 9 from Empty Space implementer
2020-04-02T11:38:04Z ecraven: ah, right, tx3.org.. I looked at the books a few weeks ago, I thought lisp system implementation looked interesting
2020-04-02T11:40:01Z jcowan: The tree-walker implementation was very very pretty, a textbook example of how to write such a thing in a low-level language.  I haven't looked at the code for the bytecode version, though
2020-04-02T11:40:03Z lonjil: Yeah, that's the main one I was thinking of buying.
2020-04-02T11:40:19Z jcowan: At least he doesn't make you play Adventure to get to the source code any more.
2020-04-02T11:40:39Z no-defun-allowed: There has been some discussion of it before here: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?from=2018-11-26T00%3A14%3A11&to=2019-11-26T12%3A14%3A11&search=Lisp%20System%20Implementation
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2020-04-02T11:42:04Z no-defun-allowed: Or to save you some time, https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1560226867 is a participant's first impressions of the book.
2020-04-02T11:42:27Z lonjil: ty
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2020-04-02T11:43:10Z no-defun-allowed: Then https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1574749037 was written some time after.
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2020-04-02T11:43:42Z no-defun-allowed: "it is basically just the commented code of one particular implementation" would be a good summary of all that.
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2020-04-02T11:45:18Z jcowan: But one specifically written with intelligibility rather than speed or space in mind.
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2020-04-02T12:06:01Z phoe: I am working on a tutorial for the Lisp condition system
2020-04-02T12:06:17Z phoe: ...and it slowly becomes less and less of an article and more and more of a book
2020-04-02T12:08:35Z Bike: got any exotic trix?
2020-04-02T12:09:10Z Bike: lifehacks? i only started doing anything complicated for clasp's compiler...
2020-04-02T12:10:12Z splittist: pheo: I'll buy it (:
2020-04-02T12:10:20Z splittist: phoe, even
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2020-04-02T12:17:53Z Xach: i use conditions for the quicklisp client progress bar
2020-04-02T12:18:04Z jcowan: Nice!
2020-04-02T12:18:26Z Xach: the idea was that a frontend could handle it sooner and display a nicer one if they liked.
2020-04-02T12:18:31Z Xach: (nobody has done that yet)
2020-04-02T12:18:54Z Xach: could have been done with callbacks or something else, i wanted to do it with conditions and it works fine.
2020-04-02T12:20:49Z lonjil: nice
2020-04-02T12:21:23Z phoe: Bike: not really, it's a very basic tutorial
2020-04-02T12:21:40Z phoe: I start with a dynavar tutorial since it's required, and only then implement a hook system with dynavars
2020-04-02T12:21:50Z phoe: and then reimplement the hook system via conditions
2020-04-02T12:22:11Z phoe: I'm kinda comfortable with sharing it now since it's kinda-60%-complete at the moment, https://gist.github.com/phoe/5659f8e5d8ff85e99565de17e39e4449
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2020-04-02T12:22:35Z phoe: I'll be happy to fix any bugs you happen to find along the way
2020-04-02T12:22:42Z phoe: splittist: tempting
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2020-04-02T12:33:15Z eeeeeta: what's the difference between a VECTOR and a SIMPLE-ARRAY? I thought they were the same...
2020-04-02T12:33:16Z eeeeeta: ; Evaluation aborted on #<TYPE-ERROR expected-type: (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8))
2020-04-02T12:33:16Z eeeeeta:              datum: #<(VECTOR (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) 128) {100574862F}>>.
2020-04-02T12:33:43Z beach: eeeeeta: A SIMPLE-ARRAY can have several dimensions.
2020-04-02T12:33:54Z beach: eeeeeta: A VECTOR only 1.
2020-04-02T12:34:04Z eeeeeta: beach, so why is a VECTOR not a SIMPLE-ARRAY?
2020-04-02T12:34:13Z phoe: eeeeeta: not all vectors are simple-arrays
2020-04-02T12:34:20Z phoe: e.g. vectors will fill pointers aren't simple-arrays
2020-04-02T12:34:24Z beach: eeeeeta: Furthermore a VECTOR can be non-simple ARRAY.
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2020-04-02T12:34:31Z eeeeeta: but I didn't make this one with a fill pointer!
2020-04-02T12:34:36Z phoe: "The type of an array that is not displaced to another array, has no fill pointer, and is not expressly adjustable is a subtype of type simple-array."
2020-04-02T12:34:36Z eeeeeta: it was literally made with:
2020-04-02T12:34:37Z eeeeeta:          (out (make-array len
2020-04-02T12:34:37Z eeeeeta:                           :initial-element 0
2020-04-02T12:34:37Z eeeeeta:                           :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))))
2020-04-02T12:34:38Z beach: phoe: That is not necessarily true.
2020-04-02T12:34:44Z phoe: beach: oh?
2020-04-02T12:35:18Z phoe: eeeeeta: (typep (make-array 10 :initial-element 0 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) 'simple-array) ;=> T
2020-04-02T12:35:42Z phoe: (type-of (make-array 10 :initial-element 0 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) ;=> (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (10))
2020-04-02T12:35:54Z beach: phoe: You are turning the implication arrow incorrectly.
2020-04-02T12:36:22Z eeeeeta: oh wait I'm an idiot
2020-04-02T12:36:25Z eeeeeta: it might actually be a vector
2020-04-02T12:36:27Z phoe: beach: one second, which implication arrow
2020-04-02T12:36:41Z eeeeeta: yeah, it's the output of FLEXI-STREAMS:GET-OUTPUT-STREAM-SEQUENCE
2020-04-02T12:36:46Z eeeeeta: which probably isn't a simple array
2020-04-02T12:36:49Z eeeeeta: time for a COERCE
2020-04-02T12:37:02Z Bike: the implication is that an array with no fill pointer is a simple array, not that simple arrays don't have fill pointers
2020-04-02T12:37:12Z phoe: OK - got it now, thanks
2020-04-02T12:37:13Z beach: phoe: "The type of an array that is not displaced to another array, has no fill pointer, and is not expressly adjustable is a subtype of type simple-array."
2020-04-02T12:37:28Z eeeeeta: ah crap
2020-04-02T12:37:35Z eeeeeta: I apparently can't convert a vector to a SIMPLE-ARRAY with COERCE
2020-04-02T12:38:00Z Bike: simple-array is too vague. try (simple-array * (*))
2020-04-02T12:38:11Z eeeeeta: I did (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8))
2020-04-02T12:38:21Z phoe: (coerce (vector 1 2 3) 'simple-array) ;=> #(1 2 3)
2020-04-02T12:38:28Z eeeeeta:     (coerce (flexi-streams:get-output-stream-sequence stream)
2020-04-02T12:38:28Z eeeeeta:             '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8)))))
2020-04-02T12:38:30Z eeeeeta: gives me
2020-04-02T12:38:34Z eeeeeta: ; Evaluation aborted on #<SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR expected-type: (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8))
2020-04-02T12:38:34Z eeeeeta:                     datum: #<(VECTOR (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) 128) {10027F555F}>>.
2020-04-02T12:38:39Z eeeeeta: wait no
2020-04-02T12:38:43Z eeeeeta: sorry, wrong error
2020-04-02T12:38:53Z eeeeeta: wait, no, that was the error
2020-04-02T12:38:54Z Bike: you should specify that you want a vector.
2020-04-02T12:39:05Z Bike: like (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*))
2020-04-02T12:39:09Z _death: better yet, you should patch flexi-streams
2020-04-02T12:40:04Z heisig: I have my first Petalisp user on Windows.  Now he has the problem that "character: Return" is an unknown format directive.
2020-04-02T12:40:09Z eeeeeta: Bike, it worked, thank you! what's the extra (*) for?
2020-04-02T12:40:23Z Xach: heisig: ouch
2020-04-02T12:40:25Z Bike: it indicates that the array has exactly one dimension, i.e. is an array.
2020-04-02T12:40:28Z Bike: er
2020-04-02T12:40:29Z Bike: is a vector
2020-04-02T12:40:34Z Bike: being smart this morning
2020-04-02T12:40:41Z heisig: Does anyone know a good fix for that problem.  Is that known?
2020-04-02T12:41:09Z heisig: The problem is due to multiline format strings that end in "~"
2020-04-02T12:42:06Z eeeeeta: ah right, thanks :)
2020-04-02T12:42:28Z phoe: heisig: aaah, are you hit by CRLF?
2020-04-02T12:42:40Z heisig: phoe: Exactly.
2020-04-02T12:42:49Z phoe: poke the implementation
2020-04-02T12:43:20Z phoe: tilde newline should work even on CRLF systems
2020-04-02T12:43:32Z phoe: ......if you are on Windows, that is? sigh
2020-04-02T12:44:15Z Xach: sbcl!
2020-04-02T12:44:33Z heisig: Yes, my student is using SBCL on Windows.
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2020-04-02T12:46:45Z phoe: minimal reproducible test case it is, then, and #sbcl
2020-04-02T12:50:57Z MichaelRaskin: And I guess in the short term the student will just run a line-end conversion on the source files
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2020-04-02T12:59:00Z Shinmera: heisig: configure the editor to force LF, and configure git to stop its crlf conversion nonsense
2020-04-02T12:59:36Z Shinmera: SBCL will not do anything about this
2020-04-02T13:01:45Z phoe: that is also a very good option
2020-04-02T13:03:51Z _death: better just to patch sbcl.. good exercise for a student
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2020-04-02T13:06:46Z Bike: "et's get used to the fact that dynamic variables have a dynamic_ name infix" seems like a prefix, phoe
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2020-04-02T13:07:12Z Shinmera: Such a patch is non-trivial and from past conversations about CRLF stuff I do not believe it would be easily accepted either.
2020-04-02T13:07:32Z Shinmera: Better to just save the headache altogether with this and all other projects by nuking CRLF from orbit.
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2020-04-02T13:12:05Z jcowan: phoe: "When a lexical scope ends, the variables defined in it are discarded." is incorrect because closures.  I suggest "A lexical variable can't be seen outside its scope".
2020-04-02T13:12:37Z Xach: i found cltl2's description of scopes helpful in this regard.
2020-04-02T13:13:59Z phoe: jcowan: fixed, thanks
2020-04-02T13:14:31Z jcowan: It's true in C, of course, because no closures.
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2020-04-02T13:16:58Z _death: do any other implementations implement a Tilde Return extension?
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2020-04-02T13:18:49Z Shinmera: The issue is with CRLF not being seen as #\Newline.
2020-04-02T13:18:54Z jcowan: "A situation is the evaluation of an expression in a specific context."  I know that comes from the ANS, but IMO it is unfortunate.  _Situation_ is not really a technical term: it bears its usual meaning of a state of affairs or. a set of circumstances.
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2020-04-02T13:20:11Z phoe: lemme change it
2020-04-02T13:20:21Z phoe: the original ANS quote is unchanged, but the para below becomes:
2020-04-02T13:20:23Z phoe: "In this context, a *situation* is not really a technical term: it bears its usual meaning of a state of affairs or a set of circumstances. To reword the above statement slightly in our context: *handlers* contain the actual code for hooks. The action of invoking the hooks is called *signaling*. *Conditions* are the objects that may trigger some of the hooks when they are signaled, allowing handlers to access
2020-04-02T13:20:29Z phoe: arbitrary *data* that is a part of the given condition that was signaled."
2020-04-02T13:20:32Z phoe: does it sound better?
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2020-04-02T13:48:38Z scymtym: heisig: i started a patchset for SBCL which adds end-of-line encodings to external formats but other things got in the way of finishing it. luis started helping at some later point but we still couldn't finish it yet
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2020-04-02T13:53:44Z heisig: scymtym: That would be great!  But it is also not too urgent.  For now, my student is using the Windows Subsystem for Linux to run the Linux version of everything.
2020-04-02T13:54:30Z heisig: The problem with the line endings got even weirder, because I couldn't even reproduce it on my Windows 7 machine.
2020-04-02T13:54:51Z heisig: So I cannot even submit a bug report.
2020-04-02T13:54:52Z phoe: hope he uses WSL2; I remember that SBCL had various assorted EWONTFIX failures under WSL1
2020-04-02T13:54:55Z scymtym: heisig: understood. i have seen problems with SIGNAL when using SBCL on WSL
2020-04-02T13:55:02Z Shinmera: heisig: it's probably git converting the line endings on his machine.
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2020-04-02T13:55:39Z heisig: Shinmera: Aah, that could be the case.  He was using some weird git GUI.
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2020-04-02T13:56:38Z Shinmera: it's a feature that I think is enabled on git for windows by default for whatever reason. I've gotten bug reports from that behaviour too.
2020-04-02T13:56:54Z heisig: Ouch!
2020-04-02T13:57:08Z Shinmera: Yeah, love it when software mangles my files for no reason.
2020-04-02T13:57:44Z phoe: https://help.github.com/en/github/using-git/configuring-git-to-handle-line-endings
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2020-04-02T13:58:12Z heisig: Shinmera: That sounds like it could have been the problem.  I will check with him.
2020-04-02T13:58:20Z heisig: Thanks everyone for the help!
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2020-04-02T14:01:10Z phoe: jcowan: anything more?
2020-04-02T14:01:44Z phoe: I've fixed your remarks so far
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2020-04-02T14:24:00Z phoe: beach: if you have the time, I would also like your review on https://gist.github.com/phoe/5659f8e5d8ff85e99565de17e39e4449. You can skip the first chapter completely.
2020-04-02T14:24:15Z phoe: It's not yet complete, but I'll write the last parts tomorrow or something.
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2020-04-02T14:29:13Z pjb: phoe: note that catch/throw take any lisp object. Therefore you could implement a condition system allowing any lisp object to be thrown.
2020-04-02T14:29:37Z pjb: phoe: but as you can see, the problem is that you need to know the object that will be thrown, before you throw it, to be able to catch it.
2020-04-02T14:30:25Z pjb: phoe: also, since catch uses eq, you cannot catch numbers, which may be un-eq to themselves.
2020-04-02T14:30:30Z pjb: or characters.
2020-04-02T14:30:30Z beach: phoe: Sure, I'll have a look.
2020-04-02T14:30:41Z phoe: pjb: yes, that's what I inferred from what Bike said too.
2020-04-02T14:31:15Z phoe: pjb: wait a second, I can catch numbers just fine
2020-04-02T14:31:26Z pjb: phoe: nope, you can't.
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2020-04-02T14:31:33Z phoe: I think you mixed up catch tags with the values that are actually thrown/caught
2020-04-02T14:31:41Z phoe: catch tags are checked via EQ
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2020-04-02T14:31:50Z pjb: (catch (+ most-positive-fixnum 1) (throw  (+ most-positive-fixnum 1) 0)) #| ERROR: Can't throw to tag 1152921504606846976 |#
2020-04-02T14:31:50Z phoe: but AFAIK I can throw any Lisp datum
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2020-04-02T14:31:58Z phoe: oh yes, you meant tags
2020-04-02T14:32:10Z phoe: yes, that is correct, tags need to be EQ-comparable
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2020-04-02T14:32:55Z Bike: most condition implementations use return-from rather than throw, i think.
2020-04-02T14:33:22Z phoe: yes, they use tagbody/go
2020-04-02T14:33:28Z pjb: Yes, if you base it on types or classes instead of the object themselves. Also dynamic/lexical.
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2020-04-02T14:33:53Z phoe: I used throw/catch because it's less messy to show; I don't need to define macros that wrap tagbody/go into nice and clean syntax.
2020-04-02T14:34:08Z Bike: fair enough
2020-04-02T14:34:17Z phoe: sure, it's a much bigger footgun than tagbody/go, but also one that is simpler to implement in actual code
2020-04-02T14:34:29Z phoe: I don't want to write a tagbody/go-wraping macro only to then need to explain that macro
2020-04-02T14:34:36Z phoe: that'd defeat the purpose of my tutorial
2020-04-02T14:35:12Z Bike: i like that csv one, too. especially since it has handlers that don't handle, which is a subtle point, and handlers that affect the condition
2020-04-02T14:35:22Z Bike: might also wanna cover resignaling
2020-04-02T14:35:41Z Bike: in clasp i have to do something similar - handle arbitrary conditions from macroexpanders by signaling a new condition that has source information attached
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2020-04-02T14:40:47Z phoe: yes, the CSV one takes a different approach from me - it's shorter and more concrete
2020-04-02T14:40:55Z phoe: that's why I've linked it there, too
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2020-04-02T14:44:01Z phoe: beach: thanks.
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2020-04-02T14:45:15Z beach: phoe: I'll do it incrementally.
2020-04-02T14:47:14Z phoe: beach: no problem. If possible, please write down the notes in some text document first.
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2020-04-02T14:47:59Z beach: Hmm, OK.
2020-04-02T14:48:34Z phoe: I'll be on and off today, so sending them via IRC might not be the best idea.
2020-04-02T14:48:43Z beach: I see, yes.
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2020-04-02T14:55:44Z phoe: FYI: If anyone'd else like to read it, I'm all up for hearing comments.
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2020-04-02T15:25:59Z jcowan: phoe: probably, but in mtg
2020-04-02T15:26:34Z phoe: mtg?
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2020-04-02T15:27:16Z _death: maybe "meeting"
2020-04-02T15:27:20Z phoe: Oooh - I see
2020-04-02T15:27:23Z phoe: no rush
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2020-04-02T15:45:31Z phoe initially thought about Magic: the Gathering
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2020-04-02T15:48:19Z _death: monday/tuesday/grumbleday
2020-04-02T15:50:47Z phoe: monday, incfmonday, incfincfmonday
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2020-04-02T15:53:56Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: not sure how the side-effects stack here! Shouldn't you just use 1+ ?
2020-04-02T15:55:04Z phoe: correct
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2020-04-02T17:25:08Z eeeeeta: is there some kind of CL Gray Stream that literally just counts the number of bytes written to it and throws away the data?
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2020-04-02T17:32:10Z Xach: eeeeeta: not premade that i know of.
2020-04-02T17:33:19Z phoe: eeeeeta: you can write one rather trivially
2020-04-02T17:34:02Z phoe: I have a joke^Wtotally serious gray stream project at https://github.com/phoe/quicklisp-quackload/blob/master/quicklisp-quackload.lisp that you can modify
2020-04-02T17:34:14Z Xach: quackload
2020-04-02T17:34:38Z phoe: you can add a (counter :accessor counter :initform 0) to the stream and modify STREAM-WRITE-CHAR to (incf (counter stream))
2020-04-02T17:34:59Z phoe: then, just fetch the value of (counter stream) when you're done quackin^Wwriting to the stream
2020-04-02T17:35:04Z phoe: Xach: quack
2020-04-02T17:36:45Z phoe: also you might want to edit stream-write-char to stream-write-byte
2020-04-02T17:36:51Z phoe: if you want byte stream, that is
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2020-04-02T17:54:33Z Xach: _death: do you have a .deb i can use for libhspell.so?
2020-04-02T17:54:46Z Xach: a dockerfile to generate one would be fine too
2020-04-02T17:57:46Z phoe: ;; rant: why the hell does hspell on debian only provide an .a file and not a .so file
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2020-04-02T18:04:59Z _death: Xach: I don't use debian (except on my server) so not familiar with how to make .deb files.. I can provide you with the x86_64 binary I use
2020-04-02T18:05:17Z Xach: i don't use debian except on my server too
2020-04-02T18:06:23Z _death: did you have trouble generating a shared object?
2020-04-02T18:06:25Z Xach: _death: hmm, a build shell script would be handy too. i had one but lost it. just something that builds the .so would be fine.
2020-04-02T18:06:40Z Xach: _death: yes, you have to patch something or other to make it work and i lost the recipe.
2020-04-02T18:06:58Z Xach: i want to keep hspell but it is a minor pain and i want to push it off on its only user :)
2020-04-02T18:08:11Z _death: if I'm the only user then it's ok to remove from quicklisp
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2020-04-02T18:08:55Z Xach: I don't have any way to tell
2020-04-02T18:09:03Z _death: what are the download stats?
2020-04-02T18:09:13Z Xach: Oh, I guess I could check those
2020-04-02T18:09:20Z Xach: I haven't been looking closely at those in a year or two
2020-04-02T18:09:55Z Xach: _death: when you set up a new computer and want to use hspell, do you copy your binary or get it some other way?
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2020-04-02T18:10:30Z _death: well, I compiled hspell back then in 2018 when I set up the debian server (and before, but that was an archlinux server)
2020-04-02T18:10:58Z Xach: ah, so the solution is "don't set up new computers"?
2020-04-02T18:11:20Z _death: I just tried downloading the latest release and ./configure --enable-shared ; make
2020-04-02T18:11:31Z Xach: hmm
2020-04-02T18:11:33Z Xach: is there a make install?
2020-04-02T18:11:42Z _death: but it has some perl issue, and I really dislike mucking about with perl ;)
2020-04-02T18:12:12Z jackdaniel: solution is just a hack away
2020-04-02T18:12:25Z jackdaniel: I'm sure that a character ‰ will be involved
2020-04-02T18:12:29Z _death: also, I just updated my system so maybe it's a transient issue
2020-04-02T18:12:44Z phoe: jackdaniel: the issue with "solution is just a hack away" is the possibility of infinite recursion
2020-04-02T18:13:06Z phoe: both when trying to evaluate "hack" and when trying to evaluate "solution"
2020-04-02T18:13:41Z jackdaniel stares blankly at phoe 
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2020-04-02T18:15:00Z Xach: _death: same perl issue here. boo
2020-04-02T18:17:46Z _death: ok, solved that by changing require "PrefixBits.pl" to require "./PrefixBits.pl" in pmerge and genprefixes.pl
2020-04-02T18:17:55Z _death: then it built an .so
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2020-04-02T18:18:58Z Xach: could that be done via environment?
2020-04-02T18:19:53Z _death: web search suggests export PERL5LIB=. may work
2020-04-02T18:21:34Z _death: seems it does
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2020-04-02T18:30:07Z Xach: ok. i will try to use this to make a durable deb
2020-04-02T18:33:14Z LdBeth: good morning
2020-04-02T18:36:24Z _death: Xach: I will add instructions to the readme
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2020-04-02T18:51:18Z jcowan: I do not understand the ANS definition of define-modify-macro.  It seems to be warning against implementing it in such a way that forms in the reference as well as in the function call must be evaluated only once.
2020-04-02T18:51:48Z jcowan: But setf says that what the place reference does with its subforms is totally up to it; they might not even be evaluated.
2020-04-02T18:53:00Z Bike: define-modify-macro uses an actual function call, and the arguments there are of course evaluated
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2020-04-02T18:53:57Z Bike: hmm let me check actually
2020-04-02T18:55:08Z Bike: ah. right right okay. so the problem is reference (i.e. the variable in the "except for the issue" definition). it's saying any subforms of reference have to be evaluated only once.
2020-04-02T18:55:26Z Bike: if the exact code there was used, they'd be evaluated twice - once as the function call, and once whatever the setf expansion does
2020-04-02T18:55:47Z Bike: once IN the function call, i mean
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2020-04-02T18:57:59Z Bike: For example, if you define new-incf with the "except for" definition, and then do (new-incf (car (print x))), it will print x twice
2020-04-02T18:58:24Z Bike: define-modify-macro avoids this by taking the setf expansion of reference and using the reader form ot get the argument to the function, rather than using the form directly.
2020-04-02T18:58:59Z Bike: make sense?
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2020-04-02T19:35:17Z elderK: Moin all
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2020-04-02T19:36:06Z phoe: evening
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2020-04-02T19:41:34Z Josh_2: phoe: ello
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2020-04-02T19:57:11Z phoe: Josup
2020-04-02T19:57:20Z phoe: ...wait, you are no longer here
2020-04-02T19:57:26Z phoe: that's why my Tab button didn't complete your nick
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2020-04-02T22:02:15Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I was just browsing clhs today and found the end of 11.1.2.3.2 interesting
2020-04-02T22:02:18Z fiddlerwoaroof_: clhs 11.1.2.3.2
2020-04-02T22:02:18Z specbot: Notes about The KEYWORD Package: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abcb.htm
2020-04-02T22:02:21Z fiddlerwoaroof_: "it is generally not wise for a program to use a keyword[1] as a property indicator, since if there were ever another program that did the same thing, each would clobber the other's data."
2020-04-02T22:02:24Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I generally always use keyword/value pairs in plists but, this suggestion reminds me a lot of Clojure's recommendation to use namespaced keywords in maps rather than unqualified keywords
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2020-04-02T22:06:17Z sjl: "namespaced keywords" wouldn't that just be... symbols?
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2020-04-02T22:08:49Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Not in Clojure
2020-04-02T22:08:54Z fiddlerwoaroof_: :foo/bar vs. :foo
2020-04-02T22:09:13Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I've always found Clojure's decision to make keywords and symbols different types odd
2020-04-02T22:09:21Z sjl: huh, yeah, that's odd
2020-04-02T22:09:49Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof_: symbol plists vs plists
2020-04-02T22:09:49Z sjl: I guess it means you can still have the keywords-look-themselves-up-in-collections-when-funcalled behavior
2020-04-02T22:09:55Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof_: very different beasts!
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2020-04-02T22:10:15Z phoe: symbol plists are global and therefore it's easy to clobber stuff there
2020-04-02T22:10:29Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Xach: when you click through the glossary links, this advice applies to both :)
2020-04-02T22:11:17Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof_: good thing to add to the errata, then
2020-04-02T22:11:24Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Also, the reason for Clojure's recommendation is that when you pass the map to functions in different libraries, the libraries can be more certain that the key they want to work with has the meaning the library assigned to it.
2020-04-02T22:11:39Z Xach: as there is no issue with keyword keys in plists that matches the issue with symbol plists.
2020-04-02T22:13:02Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Which is true here too: if my product catalog uses :name for a product name and my contact list uses :NAME for a persons name, they can conflict if I'm passing the same plist to each. If they use PRODUCT:NAME and CONTACT:NAME, they won't
2020-04-02T22:13:13Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Alternatively, just use CLOS :)
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2020-04-02T22:15:38Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof_: aha, but it is common practice to use keyword initargs!
2020-04-02T22:15:54Z Xach: i have not really seen non-keyword initargs in practice but i take a weird comfort in knowing maybe they COULD be used
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2020-04-02T22:17:45Z dlowe: a highly theoretical adapation would be to have :foo be a special keyword object in the current package
2020-04-02T22:17:49Z Bike: i used non-keyword initargs in clasp for some standard classes, so as to not conflict with user code
2020-04-02T22:17:54Z Bike: it's pretty easy to work with, at least
2020-04-02T22:18:28Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I've been slowly becoming more and more in favor of adding namespaces to things everywhere I can
2020-04-02T22:18:29Z dlowe: it might be cleaner than having a special keyword package
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2020-04-02T22:23:11Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof_: Imo, I would generally avoid using plists for this sort of thing unless you're working at compile time, in which case you're going to either (1) generate a MAKE-FOO or MAKE-INSTANCE 'FOO with your syntactic plist tail or (2) actually create the object as long as it has a MAKE-LOAD-FORM...
2020-04-02T22:23:38Z aeth: (yes, you can actually create the object in the macro in that case, at least afaik)
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2020-04-02T22:25:05Z aeth: Of course, "generally avoid" can become complicated if e.g. you're parsing JSON into plists, but in that case, the lack of JSON namespacing is the real issue...
2020-04-02T22:25:25Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Yeah, I usually use alists for maps until I decide I need a hash-table
2020-04-02T22:26:26Z fiddlerwoaroof_: But, in general, I think it's preferable to namespace the keys of your alist/plist/hash-table rather than use keywords
2020-04-02T22:27:57Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof_: hash tables are kind of duck typed... if it has a :NAME then it should be a valid name for the API... and if that's not good enough, then reify it into an object that ensures pre-/post-conditions
2020-04-02T22:28:31Z aeth: IME what's far more problematic is when it expects a key and there is none... really easy to get an accidental NIL, even though GETHASH does technically let you specify a default value
2020-04-02T22:29:09Z phoe: always m-v-b your gethashes
2020-04-02T22:29:38Z phoe: if you don't check the secondary value then you willingly bring it upon yourself
2020-04-02T22:29:54Z aeth: alternatively, abstract that into a gethash* which errors when the secondary value is NIL
2020-04-02T22:30:43Z aeth: And I personally wrote trivial macros for error-when and error-unless because those patterns were so common... That makes a gethash* even more trivial
2020-04-02T22:31:26Z phoe: hah, #'phoe-toolbox:gethash-or-die
2020-04-02T22:31:53Z aeth: that, but with less Perl :-p
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2020-04-02T22:32:45Z no-defun-allowed: gethash-or-keel-over
2020-04-02T22:34:06Z phoe: gethash-or-call-the-doomguy
2020-04-02T22:35:01Z no-defun-allowed: (gethash :thing (make-hash-table)) ; ⇒ keboom, keboom
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2020-04-02T22:38:02Z aeth: phoe: Looking up the source for that... Personally, I prefer to put my errors in an error-when or error-less before the return value, rather than as an alternate branch in an IF.
2020-04-02T22:38:28Z aeth: In that particular case, it doesn't really matter (although for readability sake, the error coming first might make sense), but in general, it avoids a PROGN
2020-04-02T22:38:53Z aeth: It also makes the main body indented one level less
2020-04-02T22:39:05Z aeth: s/error-less/error-unless/
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2020-04-02T22:58:49Z phoe: aeth: correct, it doesn't really matter for the end control flow.
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2020-04-02T23:00:18Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I generally just design my code so that NIL from gethash is semantically equivelant to "missing value"
2020-04-02T23:01:05Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I find that I very seldom care about the difference between "missing key" and "nil"
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2020-04-02T23:05:29Z aeth: idk, I personally find that if I'm not careful about my NILs, I'll have a random NIL show up as an error 20 function calls away from where the NIL appeared.
2020-04-02T23:06:03Z aeth: A NIL won't be an error until it ends up in something like a (+ nil 42) and who knows where it came from? Fail early.
2020-04-02T23:06:29Z phoe: ahh, the legendary billion dollar mistake
2020-04-02T23:06:29Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Yeah, I'm pretty careful about not letting unintended nils escape a function
2020-04-02T23:06:57Z fiddlerwoaroof_: But, that's generally something like (or result default-value) right before returning
2020-04-02T23:07:03Z aeth: phoe: except it's just false with a funny name, not a true null
2020-04-02T23:11:46Z jcowan: Is it actually stated in the ANS that what goes into a container (list, vector, struct, class slot, etc.) has to be ql to what comes out?
2020-04-02T23:12:17Z jcowan: s/ql/eql
2020-04-02T23:13:21Z pjb: aeth:  (prog1 nil (push 'here (getf (symbol-plist 'nil) :where-from)))
2020-04-02T23:13:26Z phoe: jcowan: what do you mean, "comes out"?
2020-04-02T23:13:56Z pjb:  (getf (symbol-plist 'nil) :where-from) #| --> (here) |#
2020-04-02T23:14:34Z Bike: as in is (let ((a (make-compound)) (x ...)) (setf (ref a ...) x) (eql x (ref a ...))) true.
2020-04-02T23:14:39Z phoe: if you write datum X into a place, and then you read that place, then unless some weird MOP magic happens, the value should be EQL to the original; there's simply no need to return non-EQL, and therefore different objects
2020-04-02T23:14:47Z jcowan: e.g. (lambda (x y) (rplaca x y) (eql y (car x)) guaranteed to return true?
2020-04-02T23:15:00Z Bike: phoe: sure there is. hypothetically you could have packed structs.
2020-04-02T23:15:06Z Bike: packed struct arrays, i mean.
2020-04-02T23:15:26Z phoe: I say that's an edge case though compared to usual language usage
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2020-04-02T23:15:35Z Bike: i don't know what you mean.
2020-04-02T23:15:39Z jcowan: But what I am asking is not whether this is true, but whether the ANS explicitly or implicitly requires it.
2020-04-02T23:15:50Z phoe: Bike: I think I need sleep
2020-04-02T23:16:02Z phoe: that's a more complex issue than I originally thought two minutes ago
2020-04-02T23:16:04Z Bike: jcowan: i don't believe it's explicitly stated.
2020-04-02T23:16:15Z pjb: (defmacro nil-from (expression where) (let ((v (gensym))) `(let ((,v (multiple-values-list ,expression))) (when (some (function nullp) ,v) (push ',where (getf (symbol-plist 'nil)))) (values-list ,v))))
2020-04-02T23:16:31Z Bike: e.g. the description of arrays is "An array contains a set of objects called elements that can be referenced individually according to a rectilinear coordinate system", but "contains" is just plain english.
2020-04-02T23:16:36Z fiddlerwoaroof_: It seems to me that defaulting :TEST to 'eql in functions indicates that that's expected, though?
2020-04-02T23:16:59Z Bike: i mean, yeah, if an implementation actually didn't do this it would be bad
2020-04-02T23:17:09Z pjb:  (let ((a (nil-from (make-compound) (let a))) (x ...)) (setf (ref a ...) (nil-from x x)) (nil-from (eql x (ref a ...)) silly-test))
2020-04-02T23:17:24Z Bike: but i don't believe the standard describes the idea of a compound object, or what it means for an object to contain other objects
2020-04-02T23:17:38Z pjb: and just flush (getf (symbol-plist 'nil) :where-from) from time to time…
2020-04-02T23:17:57Z jcowan: Okay, I assumed that was the case (it is a CL QOI thing rather than a spec thing)
2020-04-02T23:18:04Z Bike: QOI?
2020-04-02T23:18:10Z pjb: Bike: symbol-plist, defstruct, defclass, make-array etc.
2020-04-02T23:18:16Z jcowan: sorry: quality of implementation
2020-04-02T23:18:16Z Bike: quality of... implementation?
2020-04-02T23:18:21Z pjb: Bike: the standard only talks about compound objects!
2020-04-02T23:18:34Z pjb: Bike: now, try to find one object that is not compound! (there are some).
2020-04-02T23:18:37Z Bike: i think it's just not defined since there's no formal semantic and it's assumed the reader knows what an array is
2020-04-02T23:18:51Z Bike: in the same way arithmetic isn't defined, etc
2020-04-02T23:18:51Z jcowan: I think the reformulation in terms of places is the best one
2020-04-02T23:19:06Z jcowan: a cons has two places, a vector has as many places as it has elements, etc.
2020-04-02T23:19:18Z jcowan: (consequently #() has no places)
2020-04-02T23:19:34Z Bike: i thought of that a bit when i was sketching out a memory model for clasp, but i think "place" is too broad in some ways and too specific in others
2020-04-02T23:19:34Z pjb: jcowan: note that clisp has a compilation-time-of-clisp option to have 3-slots in cons cells.
2020-04-02T23:19:50Z jcowan: For doubly linked lists, I suppose.
2020-04-02T23:19:56Z pjb: jcowan: or had; perhaps it has been removed recently, despite what a lot of people believe, clisp IS maintained.
2020-04-02T23:20:06Z Bike: since places can be anything, but some things that are place-like aren't places, like the dimensions of an array
2020-04-02T23:20:46Z pjb: In a way, dimensions of an array are places that you can mutate with adjust-array.  Granted, adjust-array can return a non-eq object…
2020-04-02T23:21:37Z jcowan: I agree: something is a place if you can change it, even if there is no define-setf-* for it
2020-04-02T23:21:45Z jcowan: Yet.
2020-04-02T23:21:47Z pjb: (let ((i (make-array 0)))  (setf i (adjust-array i (1+ (array-dimension i 0))))   (array-dimension i 0)) #| --> 1 |#
2020-04-02T23:22:18Z jcowan: rank is not a place, though in some languages it is
2020-04-02T23:22:32Z pjb: Note: (let ((i 0)) (declare (type i (integer 0))) (decf i)) #| --> -1 |#
2020-04-02T23:22:44Z pjb: while: (let ((i (make-array 0)))  (setf i (adjust-array i (- (array-dimension i 0) 1))) (array-dimension i 0)) #| ERROR: The value (-1) is not of the expected type unsigned-byte. |#
2020-04-02T23:22:48Z Bike: well i mean, for example, subseq is a place; but there's no expectation that using (setf subseq) instead of rplaca in your earlier example would result in a true return value
2020-04-02T23:22:50Z pjb: LOL
2020-04-02T23:23:04Z Bike: ldb is also a place, and that fits in weirdly
2020-04-02T23:23:05Z jcowan: Ah.  Excellent point
2020-04-02T23:23:11Z jcowan loves to be refuted
2020-04-02T23:23:26Z Bike: since setf can do arbitrary code, the concept is a little too broad, i'm thinking
2020-04-02T23:24:08Z jcowan: And that brings me back to my earlier point: is it guaranteed that (setf (car (cons 1 2)) (cons 1 2) conses only once, and if so, how?
2020-04-02T23:25:00Z Bike: er, no, that's not guaranteed. in fact i think it's guaranteed to cons twice.
2020-04-02T23:25:15Z Bike: is this about the define-modify-macro thing or no
2020-04-02T23:25:22Z pjb: jcowan: it is guaranteed it conses twice.
2020-04-02T23:25:34Z pjb: and it returns the second one.
2020-04-02T23:25:45Z LdBeth: it could be optimized to (cons (cons 1 2) 2)
2020-04-02T23:25:52Z jcowan: But the reference to a place can do anything, including not evaluating its arguments.
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2020-04-02T23:26:04Z jcowan: This is the core of the d-m-m problem
2020-04-02T23:26:06Z LdBeth: but still requires twice
2020-04-02T23:26:16Z Bike: i mean, in general yes, but (setf car) is defined to evaluate its argument
2020-04-02T23:26:19Z jcowan: (for car, read some unknown function)
2020-04-02T23:26:21Z pjb: (let (k) (eq (setf (car (setf k (cons 1 2))) (cons 1 2)) k)) #| --> nil |#
2020-04-02T23:26:26Z jcowan: that has a define-setf-*
2020-04-02T23:26:34Z pjb: (let (k) (values (setf (car (setf k (cons 1 2))) (cons 1 2)) k)) #| --> (1 . 2) ; ((1 . 2) . 2) |#
2020-04-02T23:26:51Z Bike: okay, hang on here, back up a bit. you're not using define-modify-macro in this example at all, are you? define-modify-macro does not define a setf expander.
2020-04-02T23:27:18Z jcowan: No, it assumes that whatever place reference you pass to it has one
2020-04-02T23:27:26Z Bike: Sure.
2020-04-02T23:27:50Z Bike: or, well, the expansion assumes that, i guess.
2020-04-02T23:27:55Z jcowan: The d-m-m spec says that a d-m-m expands to
2020-04-02T23:27:58Z jcowan: (defmacro name (reference . lambda-list)
2020-04-02T23:27:58Z jcowan:    documentation
2020-04-02T23:27:58Z jcowan:    `(setf ,reference
2020-04-02T23:27:58Z jcowan:           (function ,reference ,arg1 ,arg2 ...)))
2020-04-02T23:28:09Z White_Flame: jcowan: in (setf (car (cons ...))) val), the car defines the place, but the cons will always be evaluated first as a parameter
2020-04-02T23:28:13Z Bike: except for multiple evaluation, yes.
2020-04-02T23:28:34Z White_Flame: (won't it?)
2020-04-02T23:28:51Z Bike: yes.
2020-04-02T23:28:51Z jcowan: And what is meant by multiple evaluation?  There is a hyperlink, but I don't understand the connection
2020-04-02T23:29:04Z Bike: If you give me a minute I'll write out an explicit example for you
2020-04-02T23:29:13Z jcowan: link to 5.1.1.1
2020-04-02T23:29:19Z Bike: clhs 5.1.1.1
2020-04-02T23:29:20Z specbot: Evaluation of Subforms to Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aaa.htm
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2020-04-02T23:30:48Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I don't understand 2, is it supposed to mean that the expansion of d-m-m should wrap the expansion with code to prevent re-evaluation of the arguments?
2020-04-02T23:30:57Z jcowan: Exactly.
2020-04-02T23:31:02Z Bike: If you give me a minute I will write out an example for you.
2020-04-02T23:31:13Z jcowan composes his soul in patience
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2020-04-02T23:44:08Z Bike: sorry, trying to be thorough here
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2020-04-02T23:54:25Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Is there a nice library for interacting with Elasticsearch?
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2020-04-02T23:55:40Z Bike: http://ix.io/2gqV jcowan, fiddlerwoaroof_
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2020-04-03T00:00:43Z aeth: Bike: Isn't destructuring-bind a lambda list parser?
2020-04-03T00:02:46Z Bike: well, if we're being pedantic, define-modify-macro lambda lists are their own thing, and don't support destructuring or key parameters
2020-04-03T00:02:57Z Bike: but i tried to keep it simple outside of the complicated part, anyway
2020-04-03T00:03:08Z Bike: well. the part that's complicated and also relevant.
2020-04-03T00:06:09Z Bike: brb
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2020-04-03T00:43:55Z Bike: i'm back, on the off chance anyone was waiting
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2020-04-03T01:49:50Z pjb:  /whoami
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2020-04-03T03:12:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-04-03T03:15:29Z ebrasca: Morning beach !
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2020-04-03T03:37:14Z aeth: good morning beach
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2020-04-03T03:39:06Z aeth: Oh, no, it looks like ELS 2020 is cancelled? https://european-lisp-symposium.org/2020/index.html
2020-04-03T03:39:12Z aeth: well, "physical event cancelled"
2020-04-03T03:39:49Z beach: Had you planned to go?
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2020-04-03T03:40:36Z aeth: no, but I always look forward to the results
2020-04-03T03:45:46Z edgar-rft: ELS 2020 this time takes place via telepathy
2020-04-03T03:46:26Z aeth: If we were all using Lisps, then yes, it would have
2020-04-03T03:47:29Z aeth: edgar-rft: Too bad this is all too early for VR/AR (called "XR" for "extended reality") to be commonplace or we could have something almost as good as telepathy.
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2020-04-03T04:01:36Z aeth: beach: I think I do have a talk I could give in 2021 or 2022, though...
2020-04-03T04:02:34Z no-defun-allowed: I'll try to visit next year. Dunno how it will affect my study, or how my study will affect it, though.
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2020-04-03T04:14:16Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: unfortunately, it's during weekdays, so I'm guessing you would need to take several days off, speaking to your professors ahead of time
2020-04-03T04:14:40Z no-defun-allowed: It's also approximately on the other side of the planet.
2020-04-03T04:15:31Z aeth: well, that just means add one more day (for the plane back... the plane there would be on a Sunday)
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2020-04-03T04:29:17Z beach: aeth: It would either have to be a "lightning talk" of 5 minutes, or you would have to write a paper that will be peer reviewed, and only if it is accepted by the referees would you then be allowed to give a 20 minute talk.
2020-04-03T04:30:10Z beach: It would be silly to go half-way around the globe and only stay for a few days.
2020-04-03T04:31:06Z beach: When I went to Aotearoa, I stayed for a year.
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2020-04-03T04:31:58Z aeth: beach: heh, it would be very amusing to try to summarize what I'm doing in 5 minutes.
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2020-04-03T04:32:20Z no-defun-allowed: Stupid question about talks: say I want to present about my work on Netfarm, which is (to my knowledge) a novel combination of not novel techniques for solving some problems other techniques create.
2020-04-03T04:32:32Z beach: aeth: Right.  So then you need to think about writing a peer-reviewed paper.
2020-04-03T04:33:34Z no-defun-allowed: Should I focus on the implementation of those, or the concepts themselves (I would guess the former for a Lisp symposium), and all (most) of the components or just one?
2020-04-03T04:33:39Z no-defun-allowed: I guess an answer would also affect what I write about, too.
2020-04-03T04:35:58Z beach: no-defun-allowed: You put yourself in the shoes of members of the program committee, and you write something that is likely to make them give an "accept".  It is hard to be more specific with the limited information we have so far.
2020-04-03T04:38:53Z no-defun-allowed: And would it be unwise to try to submit a paper to the first symposium I attend?
2020-04-03T04:39:12Z beach: Not at all.
2020-04-03T04:39:26Z aeth: beach: I'm writing a Scheme source-to-source compiler in and to Common Lisp. I'm probably a few days of work (so not necessarily a few days) away from getting it to read, compile, and load Scheme files.
2020-04-03T04:39:58Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, that is what I would have to do to get the paper accepted, but I suppose I don't know what I should write about that relates to my programming.
2020-04-03T04:40:03Z beach: no-defun-allowed: If it is rejected, you typically get detailed remarks that will make it possible to submit a better version the following year, or to some other conference.
2020-04-03T04:40:49Z beach: aeth: Great!
2020-04-03T04:41:19Z aeth: beach: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme
2020-04-03T04:41:24Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Write something up and we will figure it out together.
2020-04-03T04:43:08Z no-defun-allowed: Or, I guess I have a similar problem to the one that sometimes causes me to hesitate asking some questions in #lisp: is it on topic for ELS to just present something that was written in Lisp that may not have been much more interesting had it not been written in Lisp, or should it be something that takes advantage of (Common) Lisp features?
2020-04-03T04:43:31Z aeth: ASDF integration is going to be tricky, but I'll probably be able to do a mapping between r7rs's library system and ASDF's systems so e.g. (scheme base) would be the CL package and the ASDF system airship-scheme/scheme/base (almost like ASDF's package inferred system, except not enforcing a one-package-per-file style)
2020-04-03T04:43:51Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Alright, when I have time I'll write a draft.
2020-04-03T04:44:18Z beach: no-defun-allowed: There is no such preference for ELS papers.
2020-04-03T04:44:47Z no-defun-allowed: Right then.
2020-04-03T04:45:37Z beach: aeth: Demonstrative pronouns like "this" should typically be followed by a noun phrase.  Otherwise it become vague what is being referred to.
2020-04-03T04:46:09Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Thank you very much in advance.
2020-04-03T04:46:36Z aeth: beach: ah, in the Overview. Yes, I actually had worse prose there and quickly rewrote that part to be grammatically correct
2020-04-03T04:46:43Z beach: aeth: Does "This" in "This allows programs..." refer to the fact that it is new, that it is Scheme, that it is implemented in Common Lisp, or that it is designed to run in a Common Lisp environment.
2020-04-03T04:46:54Z aeth: yes
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2020-04-03T04:47:04Z aeth: well, besides the new part
2020-04-03T04:47:12Z beach: "This includes..."
2020-04-03T04:47:51Z aeth: oh, that was (I thought) unambiguously the built-ins, i.e. "the host data structures include"
2020-04-03T04:47:57Z aeth: I'll revise that
2020-04-03T04:49:24Z aeth: I'll replace the first "This" with "The embedded nature"
2020-04-03T04:50:13Z aeth: "The embedded nature of this architecture"?
2020-04-03T04:50:34Z beach: Much better.
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2020-04-03T04:55:43Z asarch: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/lambda
2020-04-03T04:55:48Z asarch: Ouch! :'-(
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2020-04-03T04:59:35Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, and?
2020-04-03T05:01:34Z aeth: beach: does NIL-as-false show up a lot in CLOS or the MOP?
2020-04-03T05:03:53Z asarch: A little challenge: how would you find the bigger of two numbers *without* using conditionals?
2020-04-03T05:03:59Z aeth: beach: Or anything else that could complicate a wrapping effort?
2020-04-03T05:04:09Z aeth: asarch: subtraction
2020-04-03T05:04:41Z asarch: ?
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2020-04-03T05:05:00Z aeth: asarch: You just need the sign so (signum (- x y))
2020-04-03T05:05:10Z asarch: WOW!!!
2020-04-03T05:05:56Z aeth: (signum (- x y)) will get you -1, 0, or 1 (careful, this is the mathematical ideal and floating point precision can cause issues here)
2020-04-03T05:06:24Z no-defun-allowed: clhs max
2020-04-03T05:06:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_max_m.htm
2020-04-03T05:06:54Z no-defun-allowed: Nothing is said about the implementation of MAX.
2020-04-03T05:06:55Z asarch takes notes...
2020-04-03T05:07:01Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: ah, yes, that too. (= (max x y) x) but they can still be equal
2020-04-03T05:07:20Z no-defun-allowed: That is my understanding of the "bigger of two numbers".
2020-04-03T05:08:23Z asarch: From https://qr.ae/pNvlnk
2020-04-03T05:08:39Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: (= 1 (signum (- x y))) gets you "x is bigger than y" while (= x (max x y)) gets you "x is greater than or equal to y"
2020-04-03T05:08:46Z aeth: so it depends on which one you want and both have their uses
2020-04-03T05:09:23Z aeth: asarch: I don't think C has signum :-)
2020-04-03T05:09:26Z aeth: Or max, actually
2020-04-03T05:09:54Z aeth: well, maybe it has max in a library.
2020-04-03T05:10:03Z no-defun-allowed: Someone suggested (/ (+ a b (sqrt (expt (- a b) 2))) 2) there.
2020-04-03T05:10:13Z asarch: I know, I just was wondering how could be the Common Lisp way
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2020-04-03T05:11:24Z no-defun-allowed: I like that way, partly because I was able to pretend I was clever for all of five seconds when I realised Pythagoras' theorem "extended" to one dimension, ie ||x|| = sqrt(x^2)
2020-04-03T05:11:33Z asarch: Did you see the polymorphic lambdas in C++?
2020-04-03T05:11:45Z no-defun-allowed: No, why would I care?
2020-04-03T05:11:57Z asarch: That would be such a pain to debug
2020-04-03T05:12:38Z no-defun-allowed: Cool. I don't write C++.
2020-04-03T05:13:53Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe you should tell ##c++ your opinion? They're probably Stockholmed enough that they would disagree, but it would be relevant there and only there.
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2020-04-03T05:17:06Z beach: aeth: I have not paid attention to such occurrences.  What "wrapping effort" are you referring to?
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2020-04-03T05:20:35Z aeth: beach: I distinguish between predicates and procedures (to use Scheme terminology), and autoconvert nil to #f in predicates for convenience (or for standards compliance when implementing a standard Scheme procedure) because Scheme has a separate #f from nil
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2020-04-03T05:54:25Z aeth: I also do a continuation passing style wrapping, but that should be OK unless there's weird control flow
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2020-04-03T06:12:36Z beach: Why is it called a "wrapping"?
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2020-04-03T07:37:19Z aeth: beach: I add a function that does nil->false or false->nil, is there a better name?
2020-04-03T07:37:41Z beach: Looks good to me.
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2020-04-03T14:20:05Z flip214: parenscript translates PARSE-INTEGER to parseInteger... which doesn't exist in JS. Is there a more extensive "standard library" or replacement table than *PS-LISP-LIBRARY* ?
2020-04-03T14:23:10Z phoe: flip214: parse-int?
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2020-04-03T14:24:05Z flip214: phoe: I know about the JS function. But is there some way to have Parenscript do some limited translation automatically?
2020-04-03T14:24:30Z flip214: If I write "parse-int" in the CL code it won't work on the host side, unless I create a workaround there...
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2020-04-03T14:25:31Z phoe: sounds like you'd need to do that - or extend parenscript with your parse-integer function
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2020-04-03T14:32:29Z Shinmera: you'll need a wrapper either way, their signatures only coincide for the one-arg case.
2020-04-03T14:33:27Z phoe: ^
2020-04-03T14:35:45Z flip214: well, is there some library (in QL?) that provides such wrappers?
2020-04-03T14:37:02Z phoe: don't think so
2020-04-03T14:37:07Z phoe: I'm afraid you'll need to DIY
2020-04-03T14:38:51Z dlowe: extending parenscript and submitting it upstream seems like the nicest option
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2020-04-03T15:19:59Z flip214: dlowe: yeah, guess so. having something hang on the symbol property list, or a hashtable...
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2020-04-03T15:23:43Z dlowe: I don't know anything about parenscript's internals but being able to map parse-integer into parseInt seems like a fundamental operation it would need
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2020-04-03T15:33:08Z flip214: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/parenscript/parenscript/-/issues/7 in case anybody would like to help designing
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2020-04-03T15:45:01Z phoe: commented there
2020-04-03T15:45:47Z flip214: thanks
2020-04-03T15:51:12Z phoe: well
2020-04-03T15:51:16Z phoe: if explaining the condition system was hard
2020-04-03T15:51:45Z phoe: now let me try explaining the even more intricate restart system that builds on the condition system and complicates it further in interesting ways
2020-04-03T15:51:48Z phoe sigh
2020-04-03T15:53:36Z Bike: it's just hore hooks
2020-04-03T15:53:54Z phoe: that is a bad typo
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2020-04-03T15:59:37Z jcowan snickers
2020-04-03T16:00:27Z jcowan: Riastradh pruned it considerably for the Scheme proposal, and I pruned it even more, so what's left is "the essence of restarts", I think
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2020-04-03T16:02:43Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/RestartsCowan.md
2020-04-03T16:03:35Z jcowan: in particular, I found for myself I needed to sort out the difference between ambient restarters (in the dynamic environment) from restarters attached to conditions from free-standing restarters.
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2020-04-03T16:05:12Z beach: jcowan: If you are going to implement something like the Common Lisp condition system for Scheme, you should probably read what Kent Pitman wrote about the aspects he thinks he did wrong.
2020-04-03T16:05:29Z jcowan: I will, thanks.
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2020-04-03T16:13:26Z jcowan: One thing we have done on the condition side is to force the condition *signaler* to decide whether the handler can return to its caller: there is both raise and raise-continuable.  If a handler returns to a raise, another condition is raised.
2020-04-03T16:16:08Z jcowan: this raise bypasses the most recent handler, just as a condition raised *in* the handler does
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2020-04-03T16:19:21Z Bike: so, error and cerror?
2020-04-03T16:19:49Z Bike: not exactly, since invoke-debugger doesn't signal
2020-04-03T16:20:54Z Bike: and a handler has to explicitly continue for cerror, rather than just return
2020-04-03T16:23:03Z fiddlerwoaroof_: jcowan: does this mean that a handler can't swallow all the conditions signaled in its dynamic extent?'
2020-04-03T16:24:49Z jcowan: Similar except for the absence of invoke-debugger
2020-04-03T16:25:20Z Bike: it sounds more like throw/catch really... like, if you throw and there's no catch, a control error is signaled
2020-04-03T16:25:35Z jcowan: however, there is an interactor provided by the implementation that looks inside a restarter and figures out what variables to collect and what restarters are available
2020-04-03T16:25:43Z Bike: or how C++ does std::terminate (except std::terminate is dumber, because C++)
2020-04-03T16:25:52Z jcowan: But catch can never return to the point of throw, correct?
2020-04-03T16:26:15Z Bike: it can't, no. i just meant in this raise-cant-continue aspect
2020-04-03T16:26:16Z jcowan: fiddlerwoaroof_: A handler can definitely do anything it wants.
2020-04-03T16:26:26Z jcowan nods
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2020-04-03T16:27:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, I think I've misunderstood the description
2020-04-03T16:29:53Z jcowan: It's just that if the handler chain attempts to return to the caller, it will fail to do so.
2020-04-03T16:30:20Z jcowan: What I don't understand about the condition system is why there are classes like error, warning, etc. and also functions with the same names
2020-04-03T16:30:55Z jcowan: For all I can tell to the contrary, the fact that a condition is a subtype of warning has no effect on how it is signaled or handled
2020-04-03T16:30:56Z phoe: ;; caught NITPICK: there's no function named WARNING
2020-04-03T16:31:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Isn't it just a convention that the "standard" way to raise a condition of class FOO is to call the function FOO?
2020-04-03T16:31:06Z phoe: jcowan: that is correct
2020-04-03T16:31:14Z Bike: jcowan: i mean, handlers can specialize on warning, but otherwise no
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2020-04-03T16:31:29Z jcowan nods
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2020-04-03T16:31:30Z phoe: you can even SIGNAL an error or ERROR a warning or ERROR a condition that isn't an error or warning
2020-04-03T16:31:30Z Bike: the error, warn, and signal functions have different effects, of course, and those effects are suited to those classes' semantic intents
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2020-04-03T16:31:42Z jcowan nods
2020-04-03T16:31:58Z phoe: the condition types are there for the programmer to utilize, especially if they write code that deals with Lisp in general
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2020-04-03T16:32:33Z phoe: it may want to separate errors from warnings from (and condition (not (or warning error)))s
2020-04-03T16:32:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: nvm, I'm confusing conditions with restarts
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2020-04-03T16:32:49Z Bike: so, hang on, in your system can a handler decline to handle the condition, and then a later handler can get at it and do whatever?
2020-04-03T16:32:51Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: :D
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2020-04-03T16:33:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: One thing it took me a long time to realize was that HANDLER-BIND and HANDLER-CASE take type specifiers, not conditions
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2020-04-03T16:34:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I can replace two identical handler clauses with (and condition1 condition2), etc.
2020-04-03T16:34:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: or, (OR ...)
2020-04-03T16:35:23Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, all the magic of type specifiers
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2020-04-03T16:36:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: I discovered this when trying to deal with libraries that signal simple conditions for things one generally wants to be able to handle
2020-04-03T16:36:21Z jcowan nods
2020-04-03T16:36:35Z pjb: aeth: SIGNUM contains a hidden IF.
2020-04-03T16:36:44Z jcowan: The Scheme analogue of handler-bind doesn't know from types, but handler-case does.
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2020-04-03T16:36:55Z pjb: aeth: like ABS.  You need to implement them without IF if you want to use them in an IF-less solution.
2020-04-03T16:36:56Z Bike: having the type system there is convenient, but if i was designing the system myself i wouldn't have done that
2020-04-03T16:37:04Z Bike: not sure what i would do, exactly, but the type system is just... complicated.
2020-04-03T16:37:17Z jcowan: I can't find the specific Pitman paper you are referring to, btw.
2020-04-03T16:37:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Bike: I think it's better than having both the type system + something else
2020-04-03T16:37:52Z pjb: aeth: SQUARE doesn't contain an IF, but SQRT does (it loops until) so abs = sqrt o square is no good, unless you proide an IF-less SQRT.
2020-04-03T16:38:22Z Bike: actually i suppose if the types were parsed ahead of time it might be okay
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2020-04-03T16:39:38Z jcowan: Which you can: just expand the Taylor series to enough terms that any further terms would be lost in the error
2020-04-03T16:39:59Z Bike: ...eh?
2020-04-03T16:40:04Z pjb: jcowan: yes.
2020-04-03T16:40:18Z pjb: taylor series don't converge very fast usually…
2020-04-03T16:40:47Z jcowan: The ones for the trig functions are pretty good: I've certainly seen them used
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2020-04-03T16:46:40Z jcowan: And https://www.sciencedirect.com.sci-hub.tw/science/article/abs/pii/S0026269209000500 seems to be a good paper on hardware square root computations with the Taylor series, though I have only skimmed it.  Per usual, we stop when the error is 0.5 ulps or better
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2020-04-03T16:47:40Z pjb: jcowan: does the hardware loop (in time) or duplicates silicon (in space)?
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2020-04-03T16:48:21Z jcowan: It uses mul/div/sqrt pipeline stages.  The point is that it's finite and can't get stuck, unlike Newton
2020-04-03T16:48:40Z jcowan: By all means read the paper and then tell me.
2020-04-03T16:49:02Z pjb: jcowan: well, the problem is more about the essence of IF.
2020-04-03T16:49:25Z jcowan: without if there is no meaningful iteration.
2020-04-03T16:49:36Z jcowan: ("My computer can run infinite loops twice as fast as your computer!")
2020-04-03T16:49:45Z pjb: jcowan: perhaps no observer in the quantum world!
2020-04-03T16:51:48Z pjb: In lambda-calculus, it's implemented thanks to lazy evaluation.
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2020-04-03T17:10:26Z phoe: Am I correct to say that the only places where the restart system interacts with the condition system is the macro WITH-CONDITION-RESTARTS, the standard-defined restarts ABORT, CONTINUE, ..., and the Lisp debugger?
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2020-04-03T17:12:44Z Xach: phoe: when i think of restarts and conditions, i think of find-restart and invoke-restart. do you consider those a part of your list already?
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2020-04-03T17:17:42Z phoe: Xach: my list? what do you mean?
2020-04-03T17:17:55Z phoe: also, find-restart does not necessarily have to do anything with conditions; neither does invoke-restart
2020-04-03T17:18:09Z phoe: the first accepts a restart name, the latter a restart designator and args for the restart function
2020-04-03T17:18:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: But they both take a condition
2020-04-03T17:18:14Z phoe: wait what
2020-04-03T17:18:17Z phoe: clhs find-restart
2020-04-03T17:18:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_r.htm
2020-04-03T17:18:31Z phoe: oooh - as the *optional* argument
2020-04-03T17:18:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: (find-restart name &optional condition)
2020-04-03T17:18:57Z phoe: yes, that relationship's much more complex then
2020-04-03T17:18:59Z phoe: thanks!
2020-04-03T17:19:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that surprised me but it was really useful for some stuff I've done recently
2020-04-03T17:19:17Z phoe: and sorry for stupid questions, I'm trying to wrap my head over making my words correct as I'm writing them down
2020-04-03T17:19:30Z Xach: phoe: your list of "with-condition-restarts, ..."
2020-04-03T17:19:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. if there are 2 continue restarts in scope, but you want the one associated with the signal
2020-04-03T17:20:55Z phoe: Xach: yes
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2020-04-03T17:22:59Z phoe: hmm
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2020-04-03T17:26:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: https://github.com/cjdev/aws-access/blob/edb09ea25912093fb0e53b9e8765733e6ff1e422/src/domain.lisp#L114 I forget exactly what motivated this, but I remember being surprised by Lispworks (I forget if it couldn't find the restart without the condition or if there were two of that restarts in scope, under certain conditions)
2020-04-03T17:26:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/cjdev/aws-access/blob/edb09ea25912093fb0e53b9e8765733e6ff1e422/src/utils.lisp#L14
2020-04-03T17:26:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's the helper definition
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2020-04-03T17:27:21Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, I see
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2020-04-03T18:23:03Z jmercouris: How can I force (defparameter x '()) to print () instead of NIL
2020-04-03T18:23:08Z jmercouris: I understand they are equivalent
2020-04-03T18:25:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: set-pprint-dispatch should work
2020-04-03T18:25:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I thought there was a variable that controls this
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2020-04-03T18:26:33Z jmercouris: maybe it is better to do something else here...
2020-04-03T18:26:40Z jmercouris: that would work, but let me rethink this
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2020-04-03T18:28:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Depending on the context (format stream "(~{~s~})" '())
2020-04-03T18:29:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, that might not be practical
2020-04-03T18:29:27Z jmercouris: it is a macro where I want to either dump the arglist like ,arglist or show () to indicate rather than nil
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2020-04-03T18:29:45Z jmercouris: when arglist is nil, ,arglist will show NIL
2020-04-03T18:29:55Z jmercouris: which makes sense... of course
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2020-04-03T18:30:12Z jmercouris: I know what I will do, I'll handle it in a let above where I need it
2020-04-03T18:30:17Z jmercouris: the problem was that it was in a quoted form
2020-04-03T18:30:43Z phoe: jmercouris: why?
2020-04-03T18:30:50Z jmercouris: I'll show you in a second
2020-04-03T18:34:38Z phoe: Can I somehow get a list of all restarts that are applicable *only* to a given condition? That is, minus restarts that are applicable to everything?
2020-04-03T18:34:57Z phoe: ...I could (compute-restarts condition) and set-difference that with (compute-restarts), I guess.
2020-04-03T18:35:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: (compute-restarts condition)
2020-04-03T18:35:04Z Bike: that's probably it, yeah.
2020-04-03T18:35:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, missed a bit :)
2020-04-03T18:35:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: what are you working on? It sounds interesting
2020-04-03T18:35:55Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: https://gist.github.com/phoe/5659f8e5d8ff85e99565de17e39e4449
2020-04-03T18:36:32Z phoe: Also known as "How To Avoid Answering A Phone From Your Ex-Girlfriend - in Common Lisp"
2020-04-03T18:36:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool
2020-04-03T18:37:41Z phoe: it's still WIP, but is kinda-complete now when it comes to dynavars, conditions, and handlers
2020-04-03T18:37:52Z phoe: remaining: restarts and debuggers
2020-04-03T18:38:11Z jmercouris: (defmacro define-command (name (&rest arglist) &body body) ... '(define-command ,arglist ,@body) ...)
2020-04-03T18:38:13Z jmercouris: that's why
2020-04-03T18:38:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: jmercouris: I usually do (,@arglist)
2020-04-03T18:38:49Z jmercouris: that will insert spurious () around it sometimes
2020-04-03T18:38:58Z jmercouris: when arglist is non-null
2020-04-03T18:39:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: arglist is always going to be a list, right?
2020-04-03T18:39:35Z jmercouris: yes
2020-04-03T18:39:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: () => () (a b c) => (a b c)
2020-04-03T18:39:39Z jmercouris: oh I missed the @
2020-04-03T18:39:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: ah
2020-04-03T18:41:34Z Bike: you shouldn't think of it as "inserting spurious ()". that's a sensible frame if you're printing, but think about the actual objects - a list.
2020-04-03T18:41:42Z Bike: i mean you already figured out this problem, but, you know, in the future
2020-04-03T18:42:20Z jmercouris: yes, that's a good point
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2020-04-03T18:47:25Z phoe: "
2020-04-03T18:47:38Z phoe: "spurious ()" looks like kinda sloppy list handling to me
2020-04-03T18:48:03Z phoe: it's not that it inserts spurious () on its own, it's that it was given wrong arguments
2020-04-03T18:48:58Z Bike: actually, why is this macro building its own form back, anyway?
2020-04-03T18:49:01Z phoe: that's like complaining that using LIST instead of LIST* inserts spurious () around the last CDRs
2020-04-03T18:49:02Z Bike: maybe &whole could be used instead?
2020-04-03T18:49:07Z phoe: ^
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2020-04-03T19:21:49Z phoe: Is (restart-case (invoke-restart 'foo) (foo (x) (* x x))) valid code?
2020-04-03T19:22:55Z Bike: well, you're not giving the restart enough arguments
2020-04-03T19:23:08Z Bike: but otherwise sure, i guess?
2020-04-03T19:24:29Z phoe: oh right - found it, thanks
2020-04-03T19:24:34Z phoe: I was dumb
2020-04-03T19:26:16Z Bike: i forgive you.
2020-04-03T19:26:39Z phoe: thank you
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2020-04-03T19:27:15Z jcowan: phoe: My only other point is that copying the *whole* of section 1 into sectiomn 2 and translating the code is overkill and makes it hard to read.  Instead, just present the cl code and a few words for each fragment to make it clear what it's for.
2020-04-03T19:28:57Z phoe: jcowan: point taken, I will possibly rewrite that chapter completely to shorten it all up.
2020-04-03T19:31:06Z Bike: i guess the weird thing is that (restart-bind ((foo (lambda (x) (* x x)))) (invoke-restart 'foo (invoke-restart 'foo 7))) => 2401
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2020-04-03T19:31:20Z Bike: now there are some hooks
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2020-04-03T19:33:37Z phoe: Bike: why weird though
2020-04-03T19:33:39Z aeth: pjb: SIGNUM on x86-64 probably contains a hidden IF, but SIGNUM could exist as an architectural primitive depending on the machine's asm, afaik. CL doesn't just run on x86-64. Of course, you'd probably still get a few conditionals in the generic version unless the compiler knows it's a float or fixnum.
2020-04-03T19:33:53Z Bike: phoe: just cos it's not how restarts are normally used. it makes sense, of course
2020-04-03T19:34:19Z phoe: Bike: usually you rarely get to see restart return values
2020-04-03T19:34:27Z Bike: usually you don't use restart-bind
2020-04-03T19:34:37Z Bike: not sure i've ever seen it in source code, actually
2020-04-03T19:34:48Z phoe: usually you just hit #\Q on your keyboard and return to the slime repl
2020-04-03T19:34:51Z pjb: aeth: usually, hardware provides two flags, N and Z, but you still have to test them to produce -1, 0 or 1.
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2020-04-03T19:35:20Z pjb: aeth: if you're lucky, you can read the flag register, and manipulate it arithmetically to get the wanted result.
2020-04-03T19:35:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Bike: the only time I've seen RESTART-BIND is in implementations of RESTART-CASE
2020-04-03T19:36:05Z Bike: well, yes.
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2020-04-03T19:36:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: It and custom method combinations are things I really want to see a compelling use for :)
2020-04-03T19:37:01Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: well, I will try to convince you
2020-04-03T19:37:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think I may have used RESTART-BIND in the past to implement type coercions
2020-04-03T19:37:09Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: method combinations are monads.
2020-04-03T19:37:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Perhaps, but I've generally been able to get away with only using the default method combinations
2020-04-03T19:38:36Z phoe: I actually started using method combinations recently
2020-04-03T19:39:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I once tried to implement http routing as a method combination, but no implementation implements the spec (IMO)
2020-04-03T19:40:01Z phoe: I hacked^Wmodified a GF to actually perform some matching for me; with my m-c, methods get called in turn and the first one that returns non-nil produces the value for the GF
2020-04-03T19:40:22Z phoe: I still remember Bike wincing at that idea, but hey, it works
2020-04-03T19:40:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: that's the OR method combination?
2020-04-03T19:41:19Z phoe: yes, except I had to work with a multiple-value-or since I had multiple values
2020-04-03T19:41:20Z Bike: yeah, that just sounds like OR... i don't remember this
2020-04-03T19:41:30Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/riichi-evaluator/blob/f978aa240a8cb4a0fb0a6cc457fd10725839779e/src/constants.lisp#L96
2020-04-03T19:41:41Z Bike: i even did something like that in my own code once, though i'm no longer sure it's the right thing to do
2020-04-03T19:41:51Z Bike: oh, well, all the multiple value lists kinda suck
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2020-04-03T19:44:53Z phoe: oooh
2020-04-03T19:44:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: can't you use the short form there?
2020-04-03T19:45:02Z phoe: Bike: I now remember *why* you winced
2020-04-03T19:45:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: (d-m-c chained-or :operator multiple-value-or)
2020-04-03T19:45:31Z phoe: none of my methods are specialized
2020-04-03T19:45:39Z phoe: they all use different qualifiers
2020-04-03T19:45:43Z Bike: oh. yeah. don't like that.
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2020-04-03T19:46:16Z phoe: (defmethod frobnicate :foo (x) ...) (defmethod frobnicate :bar (x) ...) (defmethod frobnicate :baz (x) ...)
2020-04-03T19:46:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://gist.github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/2def4b081bb9ba179efcce48a204646c#file-routing-method-combination-lisp-L61-L66
2020-04-03T19:46:52Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: nope, a short form wouldn't allow the above to work due to the qualifiers.
2020-04-03T19:46:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I did that too
2020-04-03T19:47:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah
2020-04-03T19:47:11Z phoe: hah!
2020-04-03T19:47:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Except, for "real" my method combination would be specialized by your http-server class
2020-04-03T19:48:15Z phoe: yes
2020-04-03T19:48:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: The irritating thing is that nearly every implementation throws an error if you have two defmethods that only differ by qualifiers
2020-04-03T19:49:08Z Bike: er, really?
2020-04-03T19:49:11Z phoe: really?
2020-04-03T19:49:15Z phoe: I know that ECL does
2020-04-03T19:49:19Z phoe: CCL, AFAIK, doesn't
2020-04-03T19:49:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: sbcl has an escape hatch
2020-04-03T19:49:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1799666
2020-04-03T19:50:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: I submitted a patch, but was told WONTFIX
2020-04-03T19:50:30Z Bike: clhs 7.6.6.1.2
2020-04-03T19:50:30Z specbot: Sorting the Applicable Methods by Precedence Order: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffab.htm
2020-04-03T19:51:23Z Bike: ah, because the method combination sorts them the same... i see
2020-04-03T19:51:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: but see the reference to 7.6.3
2020-04-03T19:51:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 7.6.3
2020-04-03T19:51:51Z specbot: Agreement on Parameter Specializers and Qualifiers: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fc.htm
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2020-04-03T19:53:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a bit surprising because the documentation of d-m-c includes an example of this that doesn't work on most implementations
2020-04-03T19:53:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs define-method-combination
2020-04-03T19:53:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_4.htm
2020-04-03T19:53:35Z Bike: well, nobody uses a lot of define-method-combination anyway
2020-04-03T19:53:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2020-04-03T19:54:04Z Bike: ecl doesn't support :arguments, w hich seems a bit more basic to me
2020-04-03T19:54:09Z phoe: I wish I could actually use it
2020-04-03T19:54:22Z phoe: I mean, hacks like these make it more useful for me
2020-04-03T19:54:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Me too, I would have used this
2020-04-03T19:54:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: And I considered patching my sbcl every time I upgraded to make this work
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2020-04-03T20:02:00Z phoe: this is one thing that I miss from base CL - ability to define groups of equal functions that are then grouped and combined in some way
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2020-04-03T20:02:39Z phoe: and define-method-combination as I hacked it there is the cleanest way I've found to perform it so far without pulling external libraries
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2020-04-03T20:33:19Z phoe: FIND-RESTART accepts an optional condition argument; is macro WITH-CONDITION-RESTARTS the only way of actually associating conditions with restarts?
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2020-04-03T20:36:07Z phoe: wait a second
2020-04-03T20:36:18Z phoe: WITH-CONDITION-RESTARTS actually expects a condition *object*
2020-04-03T20:36:23Z phoe: not a condition type...
2020-04-03T20:36:24Z Bike: restart-case implicitly uses with-condition-restarts sometimes.
2020-04-03T20:36:37Z Bike: i think those are the only ways.
2020-04-03T20:36:58Z phoe: I misunderstand how this utility works then
2020-04-03T20:37:08Z phoe: we must already have a condition object to associate it with restarts
2020-04-03T20:37:15Z Bike: it only does so in the specific case of the form being a literal (error ...) or something, in which case it can take it apart into a make-condition, use the condition in with-condition-restarts, and then actually signal.
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2020-04-03T20:38:07Z phoe: wtf
2020-04-03T20:38:09Z Bike: e.g. see sb-impl::munge-restart-case-exprssion in sbcl.
2020-04-03T20:38:13Z Bike: yeah, it's kind of weird honestly.
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2020-04-03T20:38:39Z Bike: but (restart-case (error ...) ...) is real common.
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2020-04-03T20:42:09Z phoe: why is this in the standard and not an implementation detail
2020-04-03T20:42:24Z phoe: I mean, I'd need a use case for that
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2020-04-03T20:42:34Z phoe: ;; that isn't implementing handler-case
2020-04-03T20:42:37Z Bike: so that the programmer can have the expectation that the condition is actually associated.
2020-04-03T20:42:39Z phoe: s/handler/restart/
2020-04-03T20:42:46Z Bike: a use case for with-condition-restarts?
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2020-04-03T20:42:55Z phoe: yes, for that one
2020-04-03T20:43:16Z phoe: something that isn't SB-KERNEL::-type of implementation internal
2020-04-03T20:44:38Z Bike: i think they only added it so that it's not an utterly magical property of restart-case. The issue in which association was added is here http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss075_w.htm
2020-04-03T20:45:37Z flip214: I've got a function with RESTART-CASE. If I run that from the repl, I can choose the restarts; if the function is called from another from within a HANDLER-CASE, (COMPUTE-RESTARTS) doesn't show my restarts as available.
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2020-04-03T20:46:06Z Bike: show code?
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2020-04-03T20:46:52Z Shinmera: does handler-case handle the condition?
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2020-04-03T20:48:03Z flip214: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/668f6557/
2020-04-03T20:48:06Z flip214: Shinmera: yes.
2020-04-03T20:48:22Z Shinmera: well handler-case unwinds the stack, so
2020-04-03T20:48:39Z Bike: yeah, you'll need to use restart-bind.
2020-04-03T20:48:50Z flip214: ouch, that again
2020-04-03T20:49:01Z flip214: restart-bind or handler-bind?
2020-04-03T20:49:17Z Bike: handler-bind, sorry.
2020-04-03T20:50:21Z Shinmera: This is why I get a bit miffed when people talk about restarts as if that part was the best thing about CL's error handling. It's not. Handler-bind is the magic part. You could simulate restarts easily with exceptions if you had handler-bind.
2020-04-03T20:50:59Z flip214: thanks, that was it again
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2020-04-03T20:55:47Z phoe: so this is an edge case where we have multiple conditions being signaled and/or nested debugger sessions
2020-04-03T20:56:04Z phoe: so we can figure out which restarts are available for which condition object
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2020-04-03T21:03:51Z Bike: yeah. really i suppose i'd only mention it in your tutorial alongside the debugger
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2020-04-03T21:05:56Z phoe: wait a second
2020-04-03T21:06:16Z phoe: the list of restarts inside the debugger - does the spec say how it is computed?
2020-04-03T21:06:27Z phoe: (compute-restarts), or (compute-restarts condition)?
2020-04-03T21:06:29Z Bike: i don't believe the spec even mandates that a debugger exists
2020-04-03T21:06:32Z Bike: clhs invoke-debugger
2020-04-03T21:06:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_invoke.htm
2020-04-03T21:06:54Z phoe: no info there that I see
2020-04-03T21:07:02Z Bike: yeah, it's vague. probably deliberately.
2020-04-03T21:07:41Z Bike: nonetheless, if there's an actual debugger and it didn't pass the condition to compute-restarts, it would be kind of dumb for no reason
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2020-04-03T21:10:16Z phoe: the spec speaks about associating conditions with restarts only to be quiet about whether the debugger actually utilizes that functionality
2020-04-03T21:10:22Z phoe: huh
2020-04-03T21:10:56Z Bike: i don't think it would be good to specify the debugger
2020-04-03T21:11:08Z Bike: i mean, i think a disabled debugger mode like sbcl has is fine, and then no restarts are computed at all
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2020-04-03T21:11:35Z phoe: yes
2020-04-03T21:11:43Z Bike: and the display is ultimately just a UI... i mean, the debugger generally lets you execute arbitrary code, so if you really want you can (compute-restarts) yourself and invoke something.
2020-04-03T21:12:15Z phoe: can I get a REPL inside sldb? or am I stuck to slime-eval-in-frame?
2020-04-03T21:12:25Z phoe: that's a sorta-related question
2020-04-03T21:12:46Z Bike: you could execute a repl in-frame, i guess :p
2020-04-03T21:12:56Z Bike: but no, i don't know of any way to do that
2020-04-03T21:13:01Z Bike: i mean, other than that.
2020-04-03T21:13:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Launch a clim listener in frame :)
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2020-04-03T21:13:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: This might be a useful thing to add to slime-mrepl
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2020-04-03T21:15:04Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: tempting
2020-04-03T21:15:08Z phoe: very tempting
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2020-04-03T21:21:51Z phoe: so, if I understand correctly
2020-04-03T21:22:15Z phoe: the only reason why COMPUTE-RESTARTS, FIND-RESTART et al actually accept a condition object
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2020-04-03T21:22:55Z phoe: is to filter out some other possible restarts that were created for other condition objects that might have been signaled in the same dynamic scope
2020-04-03T21:22:58Z phoe: is that correct?
2020-04-03T21:26:37Z phoe: because AFAIU, unless we have multiple signals in dynamic scope, this is not a issue that we will run into
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2020-04-03T21:27:26Z phoe: we need a condition to be signaled, we need a bound handler to bind a new restart and associate that restart with the signaled condition object
2020-04-03T21:27:31Z phoe: and then all of this, again, for a different condition
2020-04-03T21:27:54Z phoe: I'll go to hell if I put stuff like that in a condition/restart tutorial
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2020-04-03T21:31:32Z Shinmera: Is this the time to ask for volunteers to implement eval-in-frame in Dissect
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2020-04-03T21:42:30Z phoe: well then, for now I'll just go ahead and treat these functions as if they didn't accept a condition argument
2020-04-03T21:42:41Z phoe: and possibly complicate stuff at the end
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2020-04-03T21:49:16Z phoe: why does this code fail on me? (restart-case (invoke-restart-interactively 'foo) (foo (x) (* x x)))
2020-04-03T21:49:36Z phoe: AFAIU it should be equivalent to (restart-case (invoke-restart 'foo 42) (foo (x) (* x x))) except I interactively give it the arguments
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2020-04-03T21:49:57Z Shinmera: there's no :interactive clause for the restart.
2020-04-03T21:50:03Z phoe: oh right
2020-04-03T21:50:38Z phoe: I need to explicitly specify it myself
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2020-04-03T21:56:30Z pjb: phoe: what word don't you understand in: Too few arguments in call to #<Anonymous Function #x3020027D8B9F>: 0 arguments provided, at least 1 required.
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2020-04-03T21:58:36Z phoe: pjb: there are tons of anonymous functions. Without context which actual function was invoked, this error message is as useful as a lone "The value NIL is not of type NUMBER".
2020-04-03T21:59:15Z phoe: I understand the error message perfectly, I didn't know where exactly it was signaled from.
2020-04-03T21:59:50Z pjb: phoe: yep, more care should be given in identifying the source of errors…
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2020-04-03T22:03:21Z phoe: pjb: note that in (restart-case (invoke-restart-interactively 'foo) (foo (x) (* x x))), I *nowhere* provide zero args to an one-arg anonymous function. If I explicitly passed a lambda somewhere, or an empty arglist, I would figure out that something is wrong with it, but in this case, that argument passing is implicit. I had to re-read the spec to find that an empty list is passed in that case.
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2020-04-03T22:11:20Z strongsaxophone: How could I read lisp docs ( like defintion of a function in terminal ( something like pydoc for python  or man .3 for c )
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2020-04-03T22:11:42Z no-defun-allowed: (documentation 'function-name 'function)
2020-04-03T22:11:59Z aeth: also describe
2020-04-03T22:12:36Z no-defun-allowed: (documentation 'princ 'function) ; ⇒ "Output an aesthetic but not necessarily READable printed representation of OBJECT on the specified STREAM." on SBCL
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2020-04-03T22:13:38Z pjb: phoe: indeed. The problem is implicit from te definition of the restart foo…
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2020-04-03T22:17:35Z strongsaxophone: no-defun-allowed: the output of (documentation 'princ 'function) is nil for me , also I tried it with defvar
2020-04-03T22:17:59Z phoe: strongsaxophone: which CL implementation are you on?
2020-04-03T22:18:08Z strongsaxophone: clisp in archlinux
2020-04-03T22:18:13Z strongsaxophone: I installed it with pacman
2020-04-03T22:19:00Z aeth: DESCRIBE seems to be more reliable for me
2020-04-03T22:19:12Z phoe: hah, clisp seems to contain no docstrings
2020-04-03T22:19:19Z aeth: I think CLISP might be the one that literally launches the Hyperspec in the web browser for DESCRIBE on CL symbols, though
2020-04-03T22:19:19Z strongsaxophone: more explicitly : http://clisp.cons.org/
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2020-04-03T22:19:40Z phoe: aeth: yes, it just attempted to download the hyperspec on me when I called DESCRIBE
2020-04-03T22:20:47Z strongsaxophone: phoe:  What CL implementation are you use  ?
2020-04-03T22:20:57Z aeth: This channel is mostly SBCL and CCL.
2020-04-03T22:21:05Z phoe: SBCL here; I strongly suggest it
2020-04-03T22:21:17Z aeth: It used to have a lot of CLISP users, but most left when it didn't have a new release in years (it's been over a decade now at this point afaik)
2020-04-03T22:21:29Z aeth: s/most left/most left CLISP/
2020-04-03T22:21:43Z aeth: Technically, CLISP is alive on life support... active enough for new commits, but not active enough for a new official release.
2020-04-03T22:22:29Z aeth: If you insist on using CLISP, building it yourself to get the latest version is probably the recommended way to do it... but for most purposes, just using SBCL or CCL will be better.
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2020-04-03T22:25:54Z strongsaxophone: I'm agree to use sbcl which now I find that in pacman DB :)
2020-04-03T22:25:57Z aeth: While CL has a culture of writing portable code, portability libraries don't support every implementation, so the more libraries something uses, the more likely it is to not work on an obscure CL. I use a bunch of libraries that don't support CLISP and I don't really notice anymore because I've stopped testing on CLISP.
2020-04-03T22:27:11Z aeth: ECL has mostly replaced CLISP's niche of having an ultra-portable C-based interpreter that should run anywhere that GCC runs. I don't think implementations that use CLISP to bootstrap in the build-from-scratch process have ported that effort to ECL yet, though.
2020-04-03T22:27:19Z phoe: hmmm - I was wrong
2020-04-03T22:27:37Z phoe: RESTART-BIND's :TEST-FUNCTION argument accepts a condition and can run arbitrary code
2020-04-03T22:27:59Z phoe: I can play with that a lil bit
2020-04-03T22:28:04Z jackdaniel: sbcl recently landed support for bootstrapping from ecl (that led to ecl fixing some issues)
2020-04-03T22:28:14Z aeth: I retract my statement on bootstrapping then.
2020-04-03T22:28:31Z phoe: jackdaniel: good to know!
2020-04-03T22:28:45Z jackdaniel: that said clisp has some portability advantage which ecl doesn't have for now: boehm gc does not build on all platforms
2020-04-03T22:29:07Z jackdaniel: but there are plans to bring back an in-house gc (although not sure when)
2020-04-03T22:29:19Z aeth: ah
2020-04-03T22:29:31Z aeth: Here's hoping that such efforts happen.
2020-04-03T22:29:34Z jackdaniel: example of such platforms: minix3 and wasm userland
2020-04-03T22:30:13Z jackdaniel: but you know how it is -- plans are easy ,)
2020-04-03T22:30:24Z jackdaniel: that said, time to sleep, good night \o
2020-04-03T22:31:28Z aeth: heh minix3
2020-04-03T22:31:34Z aeth: someone planning on running CL in IME?
2020-04-03T22:31:54Z phoe: IME?
2020-04-03T22:32:06Z aeth: Intel Management Engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine
2020-04-03T22:32:16Z aeth: Basically, your Intel computers all have Minix installed.
2020-04-03T22:32:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: I had an amazing time trying to build sbcl on SPARC
2020-04-03T22:32:26Z aeth: On ring -3
2020-04-03T22:33:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: I couldn't get any binaries that worked on my SPARC machine and/or were new enough to bootstrap modern sbcl, so I spent a couple days getting a different implementation to work so I could bootstrap sbcl
2020-04-03T22:33:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Only to realize that SBCL didn't support threads on SPARC/Solaris
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2020-04-03T23:46:29Z jcowan: invoke-debugger might call (posix:exit 1) or (tagbody freeze (go freeze)) or (arduino:assert-pin 13)
2020-04-03T23:46:41Z jcowan: it's the Facade Pattern
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2020-04-04T01:37:17Z markasoftware: jcowan: out of curiosity, what package would arduino:assert-pin come from? I have never heard of an arduino lisp library
2020-04-04T01:37:47Z no-defun-allowed: Likely a made up one.
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2020-04-04T01:38:06Z jcowan: Sure.  But there is Microscheme, which does run on the Arduino.
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2020-04-04T01:38:51Z markasoftware: oh ok
2020-04-04T01:39:04Z markasoftware: i ask because i have actually been thinking about making such a thing for the past few weeks
2020-04-04T01:39:12Z markasoftware: i want to make an arduino testing framework in lisp :)
2020-04-04T01:39:20Z markasoftware: that integrates with an avr emulator
2020-04-04T01:39:40Z no-defun-allowed: Or maybe one could use cl-gpio on a Raspberry Pi: https://github.com/Shinmera/cl-gpio
2020-04-04T01:40:38Z no-defun-allowed: I think the GPIO library allows one to use Arduino-like pin numberings.
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2020-04-04T02:03:40Z White_Flame: what libs or implementation support both read & write "select" style IO?
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2020-04-04T02:39:15Z markasoftware: what does that mean?
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2020-04-04T03:11:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-04T05:12:47Z no-defun-allowed: Can clsql create columns that store binary data?
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2020-04-04T05:36:52Z no-defun-allowed: From some poking around, I think the answer is "no", and it doesn't seem like SQL has a portable "octet vector" type, anyway.
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2020-04-04T06:47:14Z fe[nl]ix: no-defun-allowed: yes, most RDBMS have a BLOB type
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2020-04-04T08:17:22Z LdBeth: why in SBCL the macro has been executed twice if the form returned is a lambda
2020-04-04T08:17:59Z LdBeth: (defmacro foo () (pprint "foo") '(lambda () '(1 2 3)))
2020-04-04T08:18:10Z LdBeth sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/jOikQJWCosMXHgczRrimiYCt >
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2020-04-04T08:20:56Z beach: You mean the macro has been *expanded* twice?
2020-04-04T08:21:45Z beach: As I recall, the implementation is free to expand macro forms any number of times.  That is why macro expanders should be written in a functional-programming style.
2020-04-04T08:24:19Z LdBeth: I wonder what special treatments to macros that return lambda forms are made in SBCL
2020-04-04T08:25:25Z aeth: interesting observation
2020-04-04T08:25:46Z phoe: LdBeth: macros shouldn't have side effects for that reason
2020-04-04T08:26:00Z aeth: also, should but not must be functional... afaik, you can have an incrementing counter in a macro as long as the only thing that matters is that the number goes up, e.g. some sort of versioning of the generated code
2020-04-04T08:26:13Z phoe: 1) because an implementation is allowed to expand them any number of times
2020-04-04T08:26:20Z phoe: 2) because *the user* is allowed to expand them any number of times
2020-04-04T08:27:37Z phoe: it isn't about what a macro returns, it's about the fact that it's a macro
2020-04-04T08:30:41Z aeth: Actually, I'm not sure what else would be a safe side effect other than a counter. Maybe logging?
2020-04-04T08:31:01Z aeth: Or creating something if it doesn't yet exist.
2020-04-04T08:31:59Z phoe: idempotent stuff
2020-04-04T08:32:30Z phoe: increasing incf-only counters counts as that, since it ensures "creating stuff that doesn't yet exist"
2020-04-04T08:33:06Z phoe: I wouldn't say logging - why would you want macroexpand-time logging
2020-04-04T08:33:33Z phoe: that would be mostly compile-time logging, too, since in normal program usage most macros would be expanded during file compilation
2020-04-04T08:34:42Z no-defun-allowed uploaded an image: side-effects.jpg (106KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/iCMJupZFLMkNOfARpdQDQoAq >
2020-04-04T08:35:02Z no-defun-allowed: I was going to say "side effects that do the same thing every time", but I guess idempotent is just that.
2020-04-04T08:35:32Z LdBeth: So seems SBCL "backtracks" to compile the form if the repl finds that the returned expression is a lambda
2020-04-04T08:36:12Z aeth: phoe: well, you have to be careful with just saying "counters" because you can't assume that e.g. 5 items exist with that counter since you can macroexpand/macroexpand-1, it can be macroexpanded multiple times, you can recompile forms/files, etc.
2020-04-04T08:36:59Z aeth: so a lot of a counter's assumptions might be wrong
2020-04-04T08:37:04Z phoe: |3b|: you've been mentioned on reddit
2020-04-04T08:37:38Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, I had to tell off a friend for performing side effects at macroexpansion time instead of in the expanded code.
2020-04-04T08:37:52Z no-defun-allowed: Also, do separate compilation and runtime environments affect this?
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2020-04-04T08:38:07Z phoe: aeth: okay, maybe wrong: multiple macroexpansions must be increasing a singleton counter of sorts, for instance, *GENSYM-COUNTER*.
2020-04-04T08:38:45Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: yeah interning is another thing that works, or in general creating any object if it doesn't yet exist
2020-04-04T08:38:50Z phoe: Still, even #:G0 and #:G0 are distinct objects, so it isn't a hard requirement; macrowriters must just be sure to make them idempotent, whatever it means in a given context.
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2020-04-04T08:39:15Z aeth: you absolutely can create things in macros, e.g. make-load-form is a thing
2020-04-04T08:39:19Z aeth: just with care
2020-04-04T08:39:46Z no-defun-allowed: In the end, the macro just has to do the "same thing" no matter how many times it's expanded.
2020-04-04T08:42:32Z LdBeth: I think this curious effect only occurs in repl
2020-04-04T08:42:36Z phoe: aeth: obviously; you just need to ensure that creating multiple things of that thing that you create doesn't negatively affect anything
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2020-04-04T08:44:39Z |3b|: phoe: too lazy to go look up reddit login to answer there, but a missing solutions are "send a pull request" and "remind the maintainer to maintain it (and/or help do so)"
2020-04-04T08:45:12Z phoe: okay
2020-04-04T08:45:33Z |3b| does seem to need to take a look at the bugs/PRs there though, added to my todo list (not that being on the list makes it likely to happen particularly soon)
2020-04-04T08:52:47Z aeth: phoe: right, either creating multiple is harmless, or ensuring you only create it once
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2020-04-04T09:04:16Z beach: I finished incorporating the referee remarks into my article on method combinations.  If someone feels like proofreading the fresh version, there is still room for more names in the "Acknowledgments" section.  Specifically, I added a figure that has not been checked, and I added examples of the scenarios at the end of section 1.  http://metamodular.com/SICL/representing-method-combinations.pdf in case someone wants to have a look.
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2020-04-04T09:12:57Z beach: phoe: I haven't forgotten about you.  It is just that we have a deadline for incorporating referee remarks, so I must make sure I meet that deadline.
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2020-04-04T10:37:24Z phoe: beach: no problem. I'll focus on finishing my article, then, so you have a complete work to review.
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2020-04-04T12:00:01Z watkinsr: Hey all, does anybody know how I can say `package` a script that does (ql:quickload :something) (something:something) ??
2020-04-04T12:00:42Z phoe: watkinsr: what do you mean by packaging it
2020-04-04T12:00:53Z phoe: do you want to deploy a binary that executes #'something:something?
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2020-04-04T12:01:16Z watkinsr: phoe: yes
2020-04-04T12:01:20Z phoe: if yes, look up https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy
2020-04-04T12:01:25Z watkinsr: phoe: because otherwise I have to wait for quicklisp to load it every time?
2020-04-04T12:01:34Z watkinsr: phoe: would it be quicker?
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2020-04-04T12:01:44Z watkinsr: phoe: I looked at roswell but roswell doesn't seem to do it for some reason
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2020-04-04T12:03:36Z phoe: watkinsr: I don't know about roswell, but deploying a binary that way will avoid quicklisp operating
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2020-04-04T12:03:50Z phoe: since all code will already be loaded in the dumped Lisp image
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2020-04-04T12:04:29Z watkinsr: phoe: that's what I wanted, nice!
2020-04-04T12:05:25Z phoe: <3
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2020-04-04T12:09:45Z watkinsr: phoe: Component "deploy" not found, required by NIL
2020-04-04T12:09:48Z watkinsr:    [Condition of type ASDF/FIND-COMPONENT:MISSING-DEPENDENCY]
2020-04-04T12:10:01Z watkinsr: phoe: presumably I need to (ql:quickload :deploy) ?
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2020-04-04T12:14:40Z phoe: watkinsr: yes
2020-04-04T12:14:44Z phoe: you need to quickload it first
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2020-04-04T12:15:06Z phoe: once it's downloaded, ASDF will find it
2020-04-04T12:16:36Z watkinsr: phoe: nice, gonna test it all now :D
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2020-04-04T12:24:37Z watkinsr: phoe: thanks, it worked :)
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2020-04-04T12:26:46Z phoe: watkinsr: no problem
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2020-04-04T12:36:34Z watkinsr: Hey, I'm trying to do the same process over on OpenBSD and I'm getting odd number of &KEY arguments while loading :deploy (MAKE-PATHNAME :NAME "libz" :TYPE)
2020-04-04T12:36:58Z watkinsr: anyway I can see a more in-depth backtrace?
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2020-04-04T12:40:04Z scymtym: watkinsr: could be caused here: https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy/blob/1871511358428c568cdd842552be3e9135a47aa5/toolkit.lisp#L38
2020-04-04T12:40:40Z Shinmera: My first BSD user, exciting.
2020-04-04T12:42:41Z watkinsr: Shinmera: haha
2020-04-04T12:43:34Z watkinsr: scymtym: looks like it, hmm
2020-04-04T12:44:18Z Shinmera: If shared objects are also named .so on bsd, it should probably be #+(and unix (not darwin))
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2020-04-04T12:45:04Z watkinsr: Shinmera: I wouldn't know if they were, how could I check? Where is it looking?
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2020-04-04T12:45:42Z phoe: that's more of a BSD question I think
2020-04-04T12:46:06Z phoe: what is the way in which the OS fetches dynamic libraries
2020-04-04T12:46:08Z Bike: should probably have an #-(or ...) (error ...) there for this kinda thing
2020-04-04T12:46:16Z phoe: ^
2020-04-04T12:46:43Z Shinmera: That too.
2020-04-04T12:46:59Z Shinmera: I'm busy right now though, so
2020-04-04T12:47:16Z watkinsr: Shinmera: no worries, I'll see if I can fix it later
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2020-04-04T13:05:42Z eta: how do you get ~X in FORMAT to print with padding?
2020-04-04T13:06:34Z eta: I tried: (format nil "~(~{~2,0X~}~)" '(1 2 3))
2020-04-04T13:06:34Z eta: ; Evaluation aborted on #<TYPE-ERROR expected-type: CHARACTER datum: 0>.
2020-04-04T13:06:51Z Bike: try '0, i think
2020-04-04T13:07:21Z eta: Bike, works, thanks :)
2020-04-04T13:07:28Z eta: (now why's it like that...)
2020-04-04T13:07:51Z Bike: for format parameters a number is interpreted as an actual number, and you need the quote to indicate a character.
2020-04-04T13:08:09Z Bike: "Prefix parameters are notated as signed (sign is optional) decimal numbers, or as a single-quote followed by a character. For example, ~5,'0d can be used to print an integer in decimal radix in five columns with leading zeros, or ~5,'*d to get leading asterisks. "
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2020-04-04T13:40:43Z watkinsr: Shinmera: I used this to achieve it inside openbsd: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/48282586/saving-sbcl-image-from-emacs-multiple-threads-error
2020-04-04T13:43:49Z phoe: watkinsr: yes, that's doable as well. deploy is just a portability library that abstracts away the implementation's means of dumping images.
2020-04-04T13:46:14Z watkinsr: phoe: gotcha, but somehow the way deploy looks for libz must be different or rather, this method doesn't use libz?
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2020-04-04T13:51:45Z Josh_2: phoe I didn't know asdf could portably dump images, that's very useful :)
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2020-04-04T13:59:08Z phoe: watkinsr: you didn't use SBCL core compression.
2020-04-04T13:59:42Z phoe: if you compress the resulting image, it will be smaller, but zlib will be required to execute it.
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2020-04-04T15:05:44Z jcowan: ISLisp nails down that macro expanders, while not required to be completely functional, cannot have any side effects that leak out of the macro.  For example, if the macro creates a cons, it may do a rplaca/d on that cons, but it cannot do I/O, or change the plist of any symbol, or attempt to modify any code.  (As usual, allocation is not considered a side effect.)
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2020-04-04T15:11:27Z _death: when you say "cannot", do you mean "must not", or an actual mechanism
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2020-04-04T15:13:19Z splittist realises for the nth time that data-driven is less error-prone than ... whatever the other thing is he keeps making mistakes with.
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2020-04-04T15:22:12Z jcowan: splittist: Smart data and dumb code beats smart code and dumb data every time.
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2020-04-04T15:23:35Z jcowan: _death: I mean that the consequences are undefined
2020-04-04T15:24:12Z jcowan: the compiler need not even expose read (for example) to macro expanders.
2020-04-04T15:24:54Z jcowan: OTOH, macros are evaluated at compile time, but eval does not exist in the language, so the compiler needs an evaluator but the runtime does not.
2020-04-04T15:26:34Z jcowan: ISLisp is an attempt to make a Lisp that is as static as possible (not however statically _typed_).  For example, classes cannot be changed at run time, nor can the class of an instance be altered.
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2020-04-04T15:29:14Z beach: Do you happen to know the reason that they wanted to make something more static?
2020-04-04T15:30:19Z jcowan: Run-time efficiency, given that although JITs existed (since 1977) they were not widely understood or used.
2020-04-04T15:31:04Z beach: I see.  So the basis for their design may no longer be valid, like the decision to have C++ use "manual" memory management.
2020-04-04T15:31:36Z jcowan: My CL/R specification <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nh28vxYjratsjYaUj_MOKZlgtWdsoJI0cO4J0O4JdHc> is an attempt to do the same thing, but with a strict CL subset
2020-04-04T15:33:05Z jcowan: Its principles are: "No loading, evaluation, compilation, or macroexpansion. No reflection on symbol values. No computed type specifiers, class names, or slot names. Packages are immutable except for interning new symbols. Classes are immutable. The class of an instance is immutable."
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2020-04-04T15:34:21Z beach: What is the main use case for such a restricted language?
2020-04-04T15:35:09Z beach: I mean, I can see that it would be fun to create it, of course.
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2020-04-04T15:37:18Z jcowan: That was definitely my motivation in inventing (or perhaps the word is discovering) CL-R.
2020-04-04T15:37:29Z beach: Got it.
2020-04-04T15:37:57Z jcowan: But I would assume it could be competitive with AOT-compiled garbage collected languages like Go, with much more richness and, well, being a Lisp.
2020-04-04T15:38:10Z jcowan: (devops in Common Lisp!)
2020-04-04T15:38:16Z beach: The first phrase suggests that, without the restriction, programs can't be efficiently compiled, and efficient code can't be generated.
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2020-04-04T15:39:23Z beach: Do you have any hard evidence that this suggestion is true?
2020-04-04T15:39:25Z jcowan: They certainly can be, provided your compiler can recover information about de facto immutability from the code
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2020-04-04T15:40:33Z jcowan: R6RS introduced a feature whereby all programs requiring either mutable conses or mutable strings had to be flagged up front so that a different compilation strategy and run-time library could be used if they were known not to exist.  AFAIK no R6RS implementation took advantage of this.
2020-04-04T15:40:45Z beach: I consider us very lucky with Common Lisp because we always have the entire program at our disposal.  It can be considered immutable until it is modified, and then, since we have the compiler at our disposal, we can compile stuff again with the new immutability assumption.
2020-04-04T15:41:18Z Bike: it seems like this kind of thing could be good for distributing complete programs to non-programmers and stuff like that, while still doing development in normal lisp
2020-04-04T15:41:27Z jcowan: Such was the original 1977 JIT for APL, a language widely believed to be uncompilable then and since.
2020-04-04T15:42:02Z Bike: as opposed to the usual image dump thing
2020-04-04T15:42:13Z jcowan: Well, I wouldn't recommend writing full CL and then using a linter to detect CL/R violations, because often they will require rethinks.
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2020-04-04T15:43:02Z Bike: sure. i mean, you write your program as a normal CL program, and then when it comes to deploy you gather everything up and look it over for reflection to remove
2020-04-04T15:43:18Z jcowan: Yes, that's what I would not recommend
2020-04-04T15:43:39Z jcowan: the reflection may be deep in the code somewhere, such that you have to change a lot of stuff to fix it.
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2020-04-04T15:44:43Z ebrasca: Do you know some tests to test some file system inplementation in cl?
2020-04-04T15:46:28Z phoe: ebrasca: ANSI-TEST has a test suite
2020-04-04T15:46:45Z phoe: if you're looking for tests that Mezzano should pass, you could use these
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2020-04-04T15:50:28Z ebrasca: phoe: I like to test fat32 implementation.
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2020-04-04T16:03:37Z phoe: ebrasca: I don't know if anyone ever wrote any Lisp tests for that.
2020-04-04T16:08:12Z phoe: You could perhaps adapt a permissively-licensed test suite from a different language, such as https://github.com/sudheesh001/AT-FAT3216/blob/master/src/tests.c
2020-04-04T16:08:37Z phoe: You don't need to care about the implementation itself, you'd just need to translate the test suite to use Lisp and your fat32 implementation.
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2020-04-04T16:56:20Z phoe: Good news everyone! ASDF's package-inferred system and UIOP:DEFINE-PACKAGE now fully supports package-local nicknames.
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2020-04-04T17:34:22Z dlowe: woo that is good news
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2020-04-04T17:49:16Z Shinmera: I also added support for PLNs to modularize, but I doubt many (anyone?) cares about that
2020-04-04T17:53:10Z Gnuxie[m]: does anyone know if this https://github.com/rpav/fast-io/pull/24/files should be made to use trivial-gray-streams or something before i ask rpav to merge it?
2020-04-04T17:54:25Z Bike: looks like it already uses it?
2020-04-04T17:54:57Z Bike: or am i missing something? it's an asd dependency and the package uses it
2020-04-04T17:55:20Z Gnuxie[m]: you're right
2020-04-04T17:56:49Z Gnuxie[m]: thanks
2020-04-04T17:56:57Z Bike: always happy to do nothing
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2020-04-04T17:58:32Z Gnuxie[m]: :)
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2020-04-04T18:20:13Z LdBeth: good morning
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2020-04-04T18:39:53Z phoe: ...I have almost hit a 100kB mark on my conditions/restarts tutorial and I still have two chapters left
2020-04-04T18:40:02Z phoe: might have even more, depending on how it goes
2020-04-04T18:40:03Z phoe: welp
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2020-04-04T19:36:11Z LdBeth: jcowan: well there's a similar thing named Standard Lisp
2020-04-04T19:36:39Z jcowan: I'm familiar with it, but it is definitely not CL-compatible
2020-04-04T19:36:40Z LdBeth: It doesn't not have macro and is offline compiled to C
2020-04-04T19:37:04Z jcowan: CL-R does have macros, and indeed the macro expanders are written in full CL
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2020-04-04T19:45:49Z LdBeth: I think the benefit is able to distribute the product without a heavy runtime, but I doubt if the runtime efficiency can be improved by a noticeable amount compared to a full featured CL
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2020-04-04T20:07:56Z jcowan: Well, you can tree-shake the runtime and probably should.
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2020-04-04T20:33:10Z phoe: fouric: could you delete the fork of my gist? It's an early version of my work, and I am still thinking of how to publish it once it's finalized.
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2020-04-05T03:53:11Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-05T04:14:52Z ArthurStrong: beach: good morning indeed
2020-04-05T04:16:08Z PuercoPope: What would be the best way to implement a lru cache with a maximum size. I was thinking of using a norvig style queue but I woud like O(1) lookup so a linked list of cons cells wouldn't work
2020-04-05T04:16:51Z PuercoPope: I saw that vivache graph implements one using skip lists but I don't know anything about skip lists
2020-04-05T04:18:58Z beach: PuercoPope: What kind of "lookup" do you want in an LRU cache?
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2020-04-05T04:19:40Z beach: PuercoPope: If you have anything that requires a lookup of an object given a key, I think O(1) is going to be hard.
2020-04-05T04:20:38Z beach: PuercoPope: A skip list is just a tree that is statistically balanced.
2020-04-05T04:21:10Z beach: So any "lookup" in a skip list would be O(log n).
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2020-04-05T04:24:35Z beach: If you stick your "lookup" in a parallel hash table, you can use a doubly linked list for your LRU cache.  When you access an item, unlink it from its place and link it to the front.  If you need to evict an item, evict the last one in the list.
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2020-04-05T04:33:35Z PuercoPope: beach: I would like O(1). The doubly linked list + ht seems like a good idea.
2020-04-05T04:34:20Z beach: You still haven't told me what "lookup" you need to do in the LRU cache.
2020-04-05T04:34:37Z PuercoPope: I'm trying to fix an issue with clx-truetype where it hash-tables as a cache but because it never evicts it leads to OOM situations
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2020-04-05T04:35:20Z PuercoPope: beach: you mean what key? A string
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2020-04-05T04:35:46Z beach: A "lookup" typically means obtaining some object given a key, but that does not seem to be something you would want to do in an LRU cache.
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2020-04-05T04:37:13Z beach: With a doubly linked list, you can't afford to do any such "lookup".  You would need to already have a reference to the element in the list in order to unlink it in O(1).
2020-04-05T04:39:43Z beach: So if I understand what you want, I suggest using a hash table for the lookup, and the hash table contains "cells" in the list with a "previous" and a "next" pointer.  The cell also contain the information you need for truetype, whatever that might be.  A font maybe?
2020-04-05T04:40:11Z beach: But then, this is not really an LRU cache is it?
2020-04-05T04:40:32Z beach: Well, I guess it is.  Sorry.
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2020-04-05T04:41:01Z beach: So to find an item, you do a lookup in your hash table.
2020-04-05T04:41:18Z beach: If it is there, you move it to the front of the list and access the information in the cell.
2020-04-05T04:41:55Z beach: If it is not there, you evict the last item in the list, load the item form disk I presume, enter a new cell into the hash table, link it to the front of the list.
2020-04-05T04:42:16Z beach: But, notice that there is no "lookup" in the list.
2020-04-05T04:42:28Z beach: The "lookup" is done in the hash table.
2020-04-05T04:42:53Z beach: So I guess you can say that your LRU cache is a combination of a hash table and a doubly linked list.
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2020-04-05T05:18:40Z PuercoPope: Yeah, I only use the doubly linked list as a way to keep up the 'access history' so I can remove them when I reach a threshold. I think I got the gist of the idea. Thanks
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2020-04-05T05:26:06Z beach: Sure.  I thought of one more thing, your list elements also need to contain the hash key, so that when you evict the oldest item, you can remove it from the hash table.
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2020-04-05T06:32:04Z no-defun-allowed: In my cache, I use a minheap (system of the same name), a hash table of elements, and a hash table of times each key occurs in the heap.
2020-04-05T06:36:03Z no-defun-allowed: That seems better though.
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2020-04-05T06:52:38Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, I asked my friends today what they would be most interested in reading about from a shortlist, and got pretty conclusive results.
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2020-04-05T07:10:10Z no-defun-allowed: The top three summaries were "replacements for centralised content moderation in distributed systems", "designing self-describing data formats using schemas and presentation scripts", and "implementing a fast and adaptable distributed hash table in Common Lisp", and I guess those are strong points of my work.
2020-04-05T07:12:40Z beach: Interesting.  Also very hard problems, I would think.
2020-04-05T07:20:06Z White_Flame: PuercoPope: there's an implementation of hashtable + doubly linked list here: https://github.com/white-flame/clyc/blob/master/larkc-cycl/cache.lisp
2020-04-05T07:20:51Z White_Flame: the style is pretty old & very broken out, but you can at least see the management of the data
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2020-04-05T07:25:42Z no-defun-allowed: beach: On the other hand, I don't know if I've done anything new? For the former, most people are fine with having a centralised power structure controlling their distributed systems, which is quite sad, but more importantly mean I haven't heard of any other attempts.
2020-04-05T07:27:08Z no-defun-allowed: (Though, using a doubly linked-list would definitely be better for a LRU cache, now that I think of it; time tends to be monotonically increasing, so keys are always inserted at one end and removed from the other.)
2020-04-05T07:35:29Z beach: Your work is far from my domains of expertise, so you would have to invest in some literature research.  It is tedious, but it can be fun as well.  Also, it is an absolute requirement if you want to write an academic paper about your work.
2020-04-05T07:35:42Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
2020-04-05T07:37:04Z no-defun-allowed: Searching for "distributed moderation" from my university's library comes up with several articles that look promising.
2020-04-05T07:38:36Z beach: One interesting thing to do is to find an old article on the subject, and do a "forward search".
2020-04-05T07:38:47Z beach: The ACM digital library can help you do such things.
2020-04-05T07:39:08Z no-defun-allowed: That does sound interesting.
2020-04-05T07:40:05Z beach: It is standard practice, but unfortunately many people don't know how to do it.
2020-04-05T07:40:31Z beach: You go to an article, and there is a link for "cited by", which goes forward in time.
2020-04-05T07:41:09Z no-defun-allowed: Useful term: "collaborative filtering", which I think is one of the ways that my system could be used.
2020-04-05T07:41:14Z White_Flame: articles on time travel go the opposite way, if they're any good
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2020-04-05T07:52:43Z no-defun-allowed: There's definitely a lot to dig through then.
2020-04-05T07:53:29Z beach: In that domain, I would think so, yes.  But you need to be selective when you look at the "cited by" list, because some articles won't be relevant.
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2020-04-05T07:54:44Z beach: Then you must learn to "skim" articles.  You quickly need to figure out whether they are irrelevant to your search, and quit reading them then.
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2020-04-05T07:55:35Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
2020-04-05T07:55:59Z beach: Then, if you think it *might* be relevant and the abstract is well written, you can determine a lot from there.  Unless of course they write "descriptive abstracts" like many of our Common Lisp friends do (until I correct them).
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2020-04-05T07:58:30Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, "collaborative filtering" is different to what I have in mind, in that decisions that a user hasn't made are approximated by finding other users that have made similar decisions to those that they have made, and aggregating their decisions.
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2020-04-05T08:01:03Z no-defun-allowed: ...whereas we have users choose some delegates (friends) that would agree with them more often than not. Performing that automatically is interesting, nonetheless.
2020-04-05T08:01:10Z no-defun-allowed: Gotcha.
2020-04-05T08:07:55Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks for the advice.
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2020-04-05T08:46:54Z MichaelRaskin: no-defun-allowed: I think there are multiple senses, recommendation engines try to cluster people and recommend based on that (old Netflix, Stumbleupon), moderation systems try to buld a single view for community (Slashdot — even if you find no articles on it, read something about it, it seems to be elaborate and interesting and has a long history to see how all of this works)
2020-04-05T08:47:11Z no-defun-allowed: I see.
2020-04-05T08:48:31Z MichaelRaskin: Explicit delegation… it seems harder to study, and even hard to see if it works or not. Something similar sometimes arises with some «you follow X, they liked Y» Twitter stuff, and more consciously in some places of LiveJournal friend-of-friend feed (LJ clones also count) and Tumblr (and clones) repost-based informal communities might end up similar to that
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2020-04-05T08:49:06Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, that seems less common, but I think it may complement the statistical techniques used in collaborative filtering.
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2020-04-05T08:50:00Z MichaelRaskin: It does have some attractive sides, and it has some upfront investment properties for _each_ user that might scare people away from trying it fully
2020-04-05T08:50:38Z no-defun-allowed: It could help with "cold start" problems where there is just too little information to start guessing from, and having to infiltrate social circles in a way would dissuade some manipulation.
2020-04-05T08:51:06Z no-defun-allowed: Usually when I try some new discussion medium, it's cause a friend nagged me to try it.
2020-04-05T08:51:25Z MichaelRaskin: Re: articles — I guess that delegation behaviour is highly sensitive to _everything_ (see: «that's too much, I unsubscribe» on Twitter), so delegation is hard to model
2020-04-05T08:52:22Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
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2020-04-05T10:34:31Z splittist: Didn't Gnus have something like that?
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2020-04-05T10:40:59Z splittist: (yes - GroupLens)
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2020-04-05T10:45:30Z no-defun-allowed: More stuff to read then. Thanks.
2020-04-05T10:47:17Z no-defun-allowed: It also seems quite common to use that vector cosine value as a correlation coefficient.
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2020-04-05T15:56:24Z eta: how do I get sbcl to do nothing?
2020-04-05T15:56:27Z mrrevolt: hello https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/wqNCiTwM/MVIMG_20200330_210636%7E2.jpg
2020-04-05T15:56:45Z eta: i.e. idle the current thread, using 0% CPU, until it gets woken up by something
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2020-04-05T15:59:22Z Bike: eta: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Waitqueue_002fcondition-variables maybe you want this?
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2020-04-05T16:00:15Z eta: Bike, I guess that probably would work
2020-04-05T16:00:33Z eta: essentially my problem is that the main thread of the program doesn't do much except get woken up by a timer
2020-04-05T16:00:48Z phoe: condition variables that is
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2020-04-05T16:01:22Z eta: can the SBCL timer still wake up my thread if it's blocked on that?
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2020-04-05T16:03:22Z Bike: wait, so you're saying you have a thread that just does some action at certain intervals? something like that?
2020-04-05T16:03:26Z Bike: maybe you can just use sleep
2020-04-05T16:03:44Z eta: Bike, yeah
2020-04-05T16:04:00Z eta: Bike, it currently uses trivial-timers to schedule actions
2020-04-05T16:04:06Z eta: but most of the work happens on other threads I guess
2020-04-05T16:06:17Z eta: hey, looks like that works, thanks :)
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2020-04-05T16:10:20Z beach: mrrevolt: If you want people to click on your link, you should tell them what they might expect if they do.
2020-04-05T16:11:42Z beach: mrrevolt: Posting links without any explanation is typical troll behavior.
2020-04-05T16:13:18Z mrrevolt: beach: knows ,next time i can’t, easy feiend
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2020-04-05T16:17:43Z phoe: mrrevolt: nice photo, but it is not lisp-related in any way
2020-04-05T16:17:56Z phoe: please refrain from doing such
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2020-04-05T16:23:12Z eta: what's ~A but all on one line, i.e. with no newlines?
2020-04-05T16:23:16Z eta: (as a FORMAT directive)
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2020-04-05T16:23:47Z beach: clhs ~a
2020-04-05T16:23:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cda.htm
2020-04-05T16:24:23Z phoe: eta: (let ((*print-right-margin* most-positive-fixnum)) ...)
2020-04-05T16:24:36Z eta: phoe, ahahaha, thanks ;P
2020-04-05T16:24:36Z phoe: and format ~a in there
2020-04-05T16:24:47Z eta: (that's amazingly hacky)
2020-04-05T16:25:25Z eta: actually tbf I'll probably just SETF that for the whole program
2020-04-05T16:25:32Z phoe: don't
2020-04-05T16:25:39Z phoe: this is a variable that is supposed to be set for the user
2020-04-05T16:25:45Z eta: huh?
2020-04-05T16:26:00Z phoe: the global value of *print-right-margin* is supposed to be settable by the user
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2020-04-05T16:26:13Z eta: so why can't I set it then?
2020-04-05T16:26:18Z eta: to clarify
2020-04-05T16:26:22Z pjb: eta: then don't use format.
2020-04-05T16:26:30Z phoe: oh - if you are the only user of the program, then sure thing
2020-04-05T16:26:37Z phoe: I meant for programs that you distribute to others, such as libraries
2020-04-05T16:26:44Z eta: phoe, yeah, it's a binary that's being uploaded and run headless
2020-04-05T16:27:02Z eta: I mean I already overwrote *debugger-hook* with something that aborts the program, so ;P
2020-04-05T16:27:59Z phoe: eta: there's implementation-defined behaviour for that, like, sb-ext:disable-debugger
2020-04-05T16:28:26Z eta: also, how do I get SWANK to load everything it needs *before* I call save-lisp-and-die
2020-04-05T16:28:49Z eta: I loaded the ASDF system, but then I try connecting and I get a "can't locate module: swank-io-package::swank-sbcl-exts"
2020-04-05T16:29:22Z phoe: eta: https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy
2020-04-05T16:32:31Z pjb: eta: note that ~A is just princ, so you cannot use princ either.  What you want is to print the objects yourself, in the format you need them.  Note that print-object methods may force print newlines. (mine do, because I don't know enough about the pretty printer to make it optional or pretty-printer directed).
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2020-04-05T16:33:01Z pjb: eta: this means, that for standard-objects you will also have to print the slots yourself, using the format you need to print them.
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2020-04-05T17:00:46Z eta: pjb, right, thank you :)
2020-04-05T17:01:00Z eta: now if only I could get SWANK to work with emacs :p
2020-04-05T17:01:11Z eta hacks further
2020-04-05T17:01:41Z pjb: eta: use slime. slime runs on emacs, and knows how to work with swank on CL.
2020-04-05T17:01:54Z eta: pjb, no, I am
2020-04-05T17:01:59Z eta: but it fails to bring up a REPL
2020-04-05T17:02:33Z eta: because it can't locate some contrib module or something
2020-04-05T17:02:35Z pjb: eta: when you type M-x slime RET, you can check what happens in the buffer *inferior-lisp* ; you may have an error in your rc files.
2020-04-05T17:02:46Z eta: pjb, this is a remote SWANK, sorry
2020-04-05T17:03:00Z eta: it's running on a different server that doesn't have any lisp stuff installed
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2020-04-05T17:03:25Z pjb: eta: in that case, you may want to edit the contrib list, or use quicklisp slime-helper to help install and use it. https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-slime-helper
2020-04-05T17:03:33Z pjb: eta: with (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)
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2020-04-05T17:03:48Z eta: pjb, how does one edit the contrib list?
2020-04-05T17:03:52Z eta: that seems to be the issue
2020-04-05T17:04:03Z eta: I tried using Emacs' inferior REPL and it didn't really work ;P
2020-04-05T17:04:05Z pjb: eta: on that server, you should want to install quicklisp and use the quicklisp slime helper to install swank.
2020-04-05T17:04:28Z eta: pjb, is there no way to have it all saved in the one lisp image?
2020-04-05T17:04:35Z pjb: eta: yes, if you use M-x slime-connet, then *inferior-lisp* won't be used.  Slime will communicate thru the network to the remote CL.
2020-04-05T17:04:46Z eta: pjb, that's what I'm doing
2020-04-05T17:04:55Z eta: it fails partway through connection with the above error
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2020-04-05T17:05:03Z pjb: eta: you can indeed load swank and save an image with it.  But you will have to start the swank server when you boot the image.
2020-04-05T17:05:09Z pjb: This can be done.
2020-04-05T17:05:13Z eta: I did
2020-04-05T17:06:51Z pjb: But for the contrib, indeed, additionnal CL files might have to be loaded from an external file.   I don't know if there is a way to preload them automatically.  Hacking swank, you could probably set up a lisp image with them preloaded.
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2020-04-05T18:11:45Z jmercouris: can someone give me a practical example of using define-symbol-macro?
2020-04-05T18:11:50Z jmercouris: what could it be useful for?
2020-04-05T18:12:59Z eta: jmercouris, how about in COND clauses where you want to not have magic numbers
2020-04-05T18:13:16Z jmercouris: why wouldn't you do a defparameter in a top level form?
2020-04-05T18:13:20Z eta: sorry, CASE*
2020-04-05T18:13:22Z jmercouris: or lexically bind?
2020-04-05T18:13:27Z eta: I think I tried that and it didn't work
2020-04-05T18:13:29Z eta: but I may be stupid
2020-04-05T18:13:55Z eta: jmercouris, yeah, no, that was why
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2020-04-05T18:14:23Z eta: https://theta.eu.org/lx/jmiw8quv.txt
2020-04-05T18:14:42Z jmercouris: interesting
2020-04-05T18:15:19Z jmercouris: so in this case your keyform is evaluated to t?
2020-04-05T18:15:20Z _death: eta: how would define-symbol-macro help you there
2020-04-05T18:15:23Z jmercouris: instead of the value of 1?
2020-04-05T18:15:39Z eta: _death, because it substitutes *test* for 1 at compile time?
2020-04-05T18:16:15Z _death: eta: have you tried it?
2020-04-05T18:16:45Z Bike: it won't work, just to skip ahead a bit. case keys aren't evaluated so they aren't macroexpanded.
2020-04-05T18:16:56Z eta: ah bollocks
2020-04-05T18:17:01Z eta: hmmm
2020-04-05T18:17:04Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/2HW1Z27
2020-04-05T18:17:14Z eta: what was I thinking of then...
2020-04-05T18:17:15Z _death: jmercouris: one use of d-s-m is to simulate nonspecial global variables
2020-04-05T18:17:30Z jmercouris: non special global variables
2020-04-05T18:17:32Z jmercouris: what are those?
2020-04-05T18:17:38Z jackdaniel: nothing special
2020-04-05T18:17:47Z eta: oh yeah, no I thought I could use it with CASE and I couldn't
2020-04-05T18:17:50Z eta: and used a COND instead
2020-04-05T18:17:56Z eta: dunno why they stayed symbol macros after that
2020-04-05T18:18:04Z jmercouris: oh I SEE
2020-04-05T18:18:09Z jmercouris: you wanted one of your cases to be the value of some variable
2020-04-05T18:18:13Z eta: yeah
2020-04-05T18:18:20Z eta: and I thought I could be clever and it didn't work out : (
2020-04-05T18:18:25Z eta: :(*
2020-04-05T18:19:05Z jmercouris: apparently you mean a dynamic variable?
2020-04-05T18:19:36Z _death: for example http://rpw3.org/hacks/lisp/deflex.lisp
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2020-04-05T18:21:45Z jackdaniel: historical note: define-symbol-macro was added for compatibility with islispa long with the lambda macro
2020-04-05T18:21:58Z jackdaniel: islisp along*
2020-04-05T18:25:09Z jmercouris: so
2020-04-05T18:25:22Z jmercouris: backing var is in a separate package so that you can't just setf it to like a new value or something?
2020-04-05T18:28:31Z _death: no, the backing var is just to provide a storage place.. the point is that with (deflex foo 42) (defun tofu () (* foo 2)) (let ((foo 123)) (tofu)) => 84
2020-04-05T18:29:38Z jmercouris: I see
2020-04-05T18:29:55Z jmercouris: but I was asking why backing-var is interned in a separate package
2020-04-05T18:30:06Z _death: you can also define other kinds of globals using d-s-m
2020-04-05T18:30:26Z Bike: it's not interned in a separate package, is it?
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2020-04-05T18:30:34Z Bike: it's interned in the package of the variable.
2020-04-05T18:30:44Z jmercouris: ah you're right
2020-04-05T18:30:47Z jmercouris: whoops
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2020-04-05T18:31:43Z jmercouris: so using deflex is the closest you could get to a constant in something like CL?
2020-04-05T18:31:55Z Bike: it's not constant.
2020-04-05T18:32:10Z jmercouris: well, it can't be dynamically bound
2020-04-05T18:32:19Z Bike: it can be setf'd, and it can be lexically bound.
2020-04-05T18:32:24Z jmercouris: yeah
2020-04-05T18:32:29Z Bike: so, it's not constant.
2020-04-05T18:32:32Z jmercouris: what's the closest you could get to a constant?
2020-04-05T18:32:36Z Bike: clhs defconstant
2020-04-05T18:32:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcon.htm
2020-04-05T18:32:43Z jmercouris: they can be setfd if I'm not mistaken
2020-04-05T18:32:56Z phoe: jmercouris: https://github.com/lmj/global-vars
2020-04-05T18:32:57Z Bike: constant variables cannot be setf'd.
2020-04-05T18:32:58Z _death: here's a toy I wrote some years ago https://gist.github.com/death/51c42a208445cd797b119aadf30c0245
2020-04-05T18:33:02Z phoe: except no rebinding here
2020-04-05T18:34:13Z jmercouris: phoe: I like!
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2020-04-05T18:35:35Z jmercouris: any other examples for define-symbol-macro?
2020-04-05T18:36:22Z _death: defpersisted variables are lazily initialized
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2020-04-05T18:37:04Z jmercouris: _death: you mean defparamater and defvar?
2020-04-05T18:37:16Z _death: I mean the stuff in the gist I just mentioned
2020-04-05T18:38:31Z jmercouris: I don't understand the decision to use a database for this
2020-04-05T18:38:35Z jmercouris: why not just save and read from a file?
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2020-04-05T18:39:17Z _death: what if you have 2 variables?
2020-04-05T18:40:50Z _death: what if you want to extend it later on in some ways? say versioning or whatever
2020-04-05T18:40:52Z jmercouris: 2 sexps?
2020-04-05T18:41:12Z jmercouris: we used to use a database for bookmarks for example in Next, but found saving SEXPs to a file much more flexible
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2020-04-05T18:42:34Z _death: sqlite is not a traditional database management system (see https://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html ) .. how were sexps more flexible?
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2020-04-05T18:47:52Z jmercouris: dont have to update schema to add/remove fields
2020-04-05T18:48:20Z jmercouris: when everything can be stored in memory, it is easier to do so
2020-04-05T18:48:31Z jmercouris: easier to manipulate
2020-04-05T18:48:57Z jcowan: In fact, sexps are perfectly matched to dynamic typing
2020-04-05T18:49:21Z jcowan: and so is ASN.1 BER if you ignore the schema part of it, which has most of the complexity
2020-04-05T18:49:37Z jcowan: "dynamically typed binary representations"
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2020-04-05T18:50:09Z jmercouris: I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not
2020-04-05T18:51:37Z jackdaniel: not using a database for data managament is a bad practice, *especially* that there is such great solution as sqlite
2020-04-05T18:52:57Z jackdaniel: having all in plain text as sexps gives you initially impression, that you do not have to update the schema, but then when you need to update it (i.e you change the format and you update on a system which already runs), you lose big
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2020-04-05T18:53:48Z jmercouris: you don't need to update it, you can have migrated and unmigrated data in the same file
2020-04-05T18:53:59Z aeth: text is for configuration, not data... you have to manually migrate if you put it in s-expressions... or, I guess, version it
2020-04-05T18:54:05Z jmercouris: and when you do need to update it, well you would be writing SQL transformations anyways
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2020-04-05T18:54:49Z jackdaniel: this is an example where a difference between "simple" and "easy" is very apparent
2020-04-05T18:55:12Z jmercouris: it's not like I don't know both approaches in this application
2020-04-05T18:55:18Z jmercouris: I've implemented both of them
2020-04-05T18:55:30Z jmercouris: and let me tell you, sqlite is great, but it is no panacea
2020-04-05T18:55:40Z jackdaniel: nobody said it is a panacea
2020-04-05T18:55:48Z jmercouris: it is no panacea with regard to persistence
2020-04-05T18:55:51Z jackdaniel: but it is clearly a cure for storing data in text files
2020-04-05T18:56:07Z jmercouris: i disagree, it is often too heavy a solution
2020-04-05T18:56:13Z jmercouris: very powerful, but not necessary
2020-04-05T18:56:19Z jmercouris: sometimes a CSV will more than suffice, for example
2020-04-05T18:56:23Z jackdaniel: well, all I can say is that it is your foot, not mine
2020-04-05T18:56:40Z jmercouris: I believe in judgement on a case by case basis
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2020-04-05T19:03:44Z jackdaniel: "Good!" [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0FBGrtAicY ;)
2020-04-05T19:04:23Z buffergn0me: Another plus for s-expressions in files is less dependencies - the code and data will be easier to read and the system to run 20 years from now
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2020-04-05T19:06:58Z _death: sqlite has a well-specified binary format, that will also be readable in 20 years
2020-04-05T19:07:27Z jmercouris: can you read an SQL binary with a text editor?
2020-04-05T19:07:29Z _death: if you need to store large arrays, say images, a binary format makes sense
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2020-04-05T19:09:29Z _death: if you have a flat file of sexps, then looking up the value for a particular variable would be slow
2020-04-05T19:10:20Z _death: these arguments are age old.. when I wrote this defpersist toy, I chose sqlite because it worked well with my perceived use cases
2020-04-05T19:10:26Z _death: although I do not use it nowadays
2020-04-05T19:10:39Z buffergn0me: Before sqlite, it was Berkeley DB, and before that it was dbm
2020-04-05T19:11:05Z _death: buffergn0me: those are key-value stores.. I did not want to use one
2020-04-05T19:11:32Z jackdaniel: and before dbm there were text files, and before that there were sheets of paper ,)
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2020-04-05T19:11:47Z jackdaniel: and before that were people with a really really good memory
2020-04-05T19:11:49Z _death: I had similar hacks involving redis though
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2020-04-05T19:13:13Z buffergn0me: I think that Interlisp showed that s-expressions in files go a really long way
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2020-04-05T20:58:28Z adam4567: Problem running sbcl script at Linux prompt  $ sbcl --script test-cm.lisp
2020-04-05T20:58:28Z adam4567:  
2020-04-05T20:58:28Z adam4567:  
2020-04-05T20:58:41Z adam4567: First lines of script are,
2020-04-05T20:58:41Z adam4567: (in-package :cl-user)
2020-04-05T20:58:41Z adam4567: (load "/home/adam/.sbclrc")
2020-04-05T20:58:41Z adam4567: (ql:quickload "/home/adam/.quicklisp/local-projects/cm/cm.asd")
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2020-04-05T20:58:44Z adam4567: (in-package :cm)
2020-04-05T20:58:48Z adam4567:  
2020-04-05T20:58:51Z adam4567: My .sbclrc contains quicklisp's location ".quicklisp/setup.lisp"..etc, that seems OK
2020-04-05T20:58:54Z adam4567:  
2020-04-05T20:58:57Z adam4567: The ASDF file stats OK, but sbcl error when loading .. ??
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2020-04-05T20:59:00Z adam4567: $ ll /home/adam/.quicklisp/local-projects/cm/cm.asd
2020-04-05T20:59:04Z adam4567: -rw-rw-r-- 1 adam adam 3985 Mar 19 23:56 /home/adam/.quicklisp/local-projects/cm/cm.asd
2020-04-05T20:59:07Z adam4567:  
2020-04-05T20:59:36Z adam4567: Unhandled LOAD-SYSTEM-DEFINITION-ERROR in .. : Error while trying to load definition for system  from pathname /home/adam/.quicklisp/quicklisp/: Can't LOAD a directory: #P"/home/adam/.quicklisp/quicklisp/".
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2020-04-05T20:59:59Z phoe: adam4567: *PLEASE* use a pastebin.
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2020-04-05T21:00:10Z adam4567: Oh. OK
2020-04-05T21:00:20Z phoe: That's your first warning, and I hope I'll never get to issue another one. (;
2020-04-05T21:00:48Z phoe: Now - I wonder where ASDF gets a diretory pathname from...
2020-04-05T21:01:32Z phoe: shouldn't (ql:quickload "cm") be enough?
2020-04-05T21:02:51Z adam4567: that seems to .. improve matters
2020-04-05T21:03:50Z adam4567: no error as before. OK. Thanks. Will continue.
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2020-04-06T02:26:21Z elderK: Hey guys, what's the equivalent of enumerations in CL? Is there such a thing?
2020-04-06T02:26:41Z elderK: The reason I ask, instead of just using symbols, is that for efficiency, I'd like to represent something as a 2D array. Say, a transition table.
2020-04-06T02:26:47Z elderK: Each symbol would map to an integer index.
2020-04-06T02:27:09Z elderK: Failing that, I might invent yet another "state machine" macro :P
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2020-04-06T02:38:46Z pjb: elderK: see com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:defenum
2020-04-06T02:38:52Z conjunctive: Hi all, just released a Huet-style zippers library for CL: https://github.com/conjunctive/zip
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2020-04-06T02:39:03Z conjunctive: This is my first try working heavily with type declarations in SBCL.
2020-04-06T02:39:05Z conjunctive: Also, working with FSet has been fantastic! Coming from Clojure I felt right at home.
2020-04-06T02:42:14Z pjb: elderK: there are other variants. see for example: ccl::defenum
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2020-04-06T02:46:35Z elderK: Thanks pjb
2020-04-06T02:48:42Z LdBeth: good evening
2020-04-06T02:50:16Z elderK: pjb: If using a case statement, would this require translating the integer back to a symbol, and such
2020-04-06T02:50:19Z elderK: ?
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2020-04-06T02:52:45Z LdBeth: elderK: for ccl::defenum, no
2020-04-06T02:53:04Z LdBeth: it just defines a symbol macro
2020-04-06T02:53:43Z elderK: Ah, I have not heard of symbol macros.
2020-04-06T02:53:45Z elderK: I will read up :)
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2020-04-06T02:58:30Z elderK: LdBeth: defconstant defines symbol macros?
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2020-04-06T02:59:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-06T03:00:04Z pjb: elderK: your defenum macro expansion could include a case-<enum> macro…
2020-04-06T03:00:07Z adlai: elderK: if you want to roll-your-own, i recommend an eq table from symbols to numbers; anyone concerned about the backlinks deserves the algorithmic complexity.
2020-04-06T03:00:52Z elderK: adlai: an eq table?
2020-04-06T03:01:00Z pjb: elderK: defconstant defines constant variables.  Theorically, they could be implemented as symbol-macros, but implementations define them natively, to be able to detect bindings at compilation time, and for keywords.
2020-04-06T03:01:58Z elderK: Good morning, beach!
2020-04-06T03:02:37Z pjb: elderK: well, defining constant variables as symbol-macro wouldn't let you prevent binding them.
2020-04-06T03:02:54Z adlai: elderK: instead of a 2D array containing symbols designating the elements within the enum, (make-hash-table :test #'eq) for mapping symbols to offsets within the array; then, you don't even have to allocate that array if it's prohibitively large.
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2020-04-06T03:04:59Z adlai: have fun doing pointer arithmetic on enumerations :)
2020-04-06T03:05:22Z elderK: adlai: I'd rather avoid a hashlookup every time I need the integer value of some symbol.
2020-04-06T03:05:44Z elderK: I need to learn more about the case form. Are the things it matches against even evaluated?
2020-04-06T03:06:09Z pjb: elderK: you have to define boundaries, outside of which the symbols are used and inside of which the integers are used.
2020-04-06T03:06:27Z pjb: elderK: I like to use conversion functions to cross thos boundaries.
2020-04-06T03:07:09Z pjb: elderK: If you define constant variables, they have to be defined at compilation-time, so you can use them with #. in case forms processing the integer values.
2020-04-06T03:07:37Z pjb: In all cases, I don't see the point of using a hash-table, conversion functions can just use case.
2020-04-06T03:14:26Z adlai: elderK: if you'd like to reoptimize an eq hashtable once you're convinced that the enum's membership set has settled, you can verify that hash-table-count and hash-table-size are sufficiently far apart, and then call rehash; however, this is all an implementation detail, and your enum lookups should happen at compile-time
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2020-04-06T03:15:03Z adlai may be talking slightly outside the spec here
2020-04-06T03:16:27Z adlai: myeah, there's no cl:rehash, although the desired side-effect is to rebuild the hashtable, without another call to make-hash-table, so that optimizers who pay attention to the membership set have an opportunity to work
2020-04-06T03:18:07Z Bike: elderK: the case macro does not evaluate the keys, no.
2020-04-06T03:19:17Z Bike: each case has a list of keys that are checked against with eql. if a clause key is T or OTHERWISE it's a default. if a clause key is some other object that counts as a list of one object. that's about it.
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2020-04-06T03:21:14Z elderK: Bike: Nuts.
2020-04-06T03:21:16Z adlai: maybe elderK is just asking "how is case implemented, when i reserve the right to use as many distinct keys as the size of some mystery 2D program text"
2020-04-06T03:22:05Z Bike: it means it can be compiled into a jump table sometimes. that's nice. but it's fundamentally a pretty static operator.
2020-04-06T03:22:17Z Bike: you could whip up something with cond if you want evaluated keys, of course
2020-04-06T03:23:23Z adlai: elderK: you may find the string-case macro implements exactly what you didn't think you were asking, if you want the enum members to exist at runtime
2020-04-06T03:23:25Z elderK: Bike: Aye. It's just I see (cond ...) as a bunch of if statements :P
2020-04-06T03:23:36Z Bike: well, good, because that's what it is
2020-04-06T03:23:39Z elderK: I see case as something "hopefully" much more efficient, somewhat like switch in C.
2020-04-06T03:23:44Z Bike: Yes
2020-04-06T03:23:48Z Bike: it is, exactly
2020-04-06T03:23:49Z beach: Those would be forms, not statements.
2020-04-06T03:24:13Z Bike: and C switch only works with constant expressions, no?
2020-04-06T03:24:20Z elderK: Correct.
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2020-04-06T03:25:42Z Bike: so that's how cl:case works as well. C does have a more expansive concept of constant expressions, though.
2020-04-06T03:27:03Z elderK: :( Aye, but if I define something, say, (defconstant foo 3)
2020-04-06T03:27:10Z adlai: there is a string-case library that builds a table from strings at compile time, and evaluates the key at run time, although it is not supposed to be abused as a replacement for enumerations
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2020-04-06T03:27:13Z elderK: and try to use that in a case, (case foo ...)
2020-04-06T03:27:21Z Bike: right, that's what I meant.
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2020-04-06T03:27:22Z elderK: foo will be evaluated, no? But the keys in the case clauses wont.
2020-04-06T03:27:27Z Bike: C allows that, lisp does not.
2020-04-06T03:27:38Z Bike: you can probably (ab)use the #. syntax for that though.
2020-04-06T03:27:48Z elderK: That seems painful.
2020-04-06T03:27:55Z Bike: it's not that bad.
2020-04-06T03:28:08Z adlai: elderK: in your example, the symbol foo might never be evaluated after the compiler hits defconstant
2020-04-06T03:28:09Z Bike: (case expr (#.foo ...whatever code...))
2020-04-06T03:29:09Z Bike: the macro trying to evaluate the keys would be a problem because A) it needs a list, and B) case is actually used with literal unevaluated symbols a fair bit
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2020-04-06T03:29:20Z Bike: might be interesting to think about an expansion of what constant expressions are good for, tho
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2020-04-06T03:29:47Z elderK: :( So, what's the idiomatic equivalent to a C enumeration, and switching on enumerants? Or using those enumerants as indices?
2020-04-06T03:30:08Z Bike: usually we use symbols instead of enumeration constants.
2020-04-06T03:30:37Z Bike: iirc sbcl is smart enough to reduce a case on symbols ot a jump table, so that's cool
2020-04-06T03:30:50Z elderK: That is cool.
2020-04-06T03:31:18Z elderK: So then, if I want to have a mapping between symbols and integer indices, I need a map of somesort.
2020-04-06T03:31:27Z elderK: Either a case statement say, or a cond, or a hash table.
2020-04-06T03:32:00Z Bike: yeah. well, just define a symbol->integer function that everything uses, and stress about the best way to implement it later
2020-04-06T03:33:18Z elderK: So, let's say we use #.SOME-NAME
2020-04-06T03:33:47Z elderK: What environment would that SOME-NAME be retrieved from?
2020-04-06T03:34:09Z Bike: the compilation environment
2020-04-06T03:34:29Z elderK: Right, so i'd have to ensure that my constants were visible via eval-when, correct?
2020-04-06T03:34:31Z Bike: if the implementation evaluates defconstants at compile time, as most do, that works fine. if you wanna be paranoid you can put an eval-when on
2020-04-06T03:34:44Z Bike: i mean, (defconstant +foo+ 3) will usually be fine by itself
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2020-04-06T03:34:49Z Bike: anyway imma sleep bye bye
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2020-04-06T03:35:31Z elderK: Goodnight Bike, thanks for your help.
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2020-04-06T03:38:22Z elderK: Well, nuts. That is disappointing :(
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2020-04-06T03:42:17Z adlai: what are you disappointed about ?
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2020-04-06T03:57:59Z aeth: elderK: The most idiomatic equivalent to an enum is a member type, e.g. (deftype color () '(member :red :green :blue)) (typep :red 'color)
2020-04-06T03:58:45Z aeth: Of course it doesn't actually have an (accessible) associated number until you define an ECASE that maps it to a number, as Bike said.
2020-04-06T03:59:02Z aeth: A macro that generates both at the same time shouldn't be too hard.
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2020-04-06T11:04:02Z jmercouris: can someone help me here, I'm not getting something http://dpaste.com/0MGBZBQ
2020-04-06T11:04:10Z jmercouris: it says there is a conflict
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2020-04-06T11:04:30Z jmercouris: HOWEVER, I am not exporitng the symbol NEXT/BLOCKER-MODE::MODIFIERS
2020-04-06T11:04:38Z jmercouris: s/exporitng/exporting
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2020-04-06T11:06:16Z jmercouris: somehow deleting the key argument in request-resource-block causes the error to go away
2020-04-06T11:06:19Z jmercouris: this is what makes no sense to me
2020-04-06T11:08:09Z jmercouris: how can a key argument to a function cause a name conflict?
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2020-04-06T11:25:17Z trocado: (rename-file #p"test/current/" #p"test/123/") is saying it can't rename [current dir]/test/current/ to [current dir]/test/current/test/123/
2020-04-06T11:25:32Z trocado: is this expected behaviour?
2020-04-06T11:26:20Z trocado: i would assume that both paths are relative to current directory...
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2020-04-06T11:28:29Z Shinmera: clhs rename-file
2020-04-06T11:28:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rn_fil.htm
2020-04-06T11:28:30Z Xach: trocado: RENAME merges the new with the old
2020-04-06T11:28:45Z Shinmera: "The primary value, defaulted-new-name, is the resulting name which is composed of new-name with any missing components filled in by performing a merge-pathnames operation using filespec as the defaults."
2020-04-06T11:28:45Z Xach: trocado: if you don't want that, make sure the new name is more complete
2020-04-06T11:29:54Z Xach: i think this is widely unexpected behavior, but it does allow some shortcuts if you have it memorized. like (rename-file "/My/cool/file/frob.lisp" "frob-backup") => "/My/cool/file/frob-backup.lisp"
2020-04-06T11:31:12Z trocado: I see, it actually makes sense.
2020-04-06T11:32:24Z Xach: it has internal logic at least. the problem with intuition and expectation is it's formed by whatever you learn first, and i learned a different style first (unix mv style).
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2020-04-06T11:37:54Z trocado: Xach
2020-04-06T11:38:08Z trocado: Xach: yes, that's right
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2020-04-06T11:49:08Z Josh_2: Afternoon all
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2020-04-06T11:59:13Z phoe: hello
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2020-04-06T12:36:15Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2020-04-06T14:25:53Z srandon111: guys what is meant by "natural recursion"? and what would it be a "non-natural recursioN" ? i found a post on stackoverflow but wasn't able to understand still
2020-04-06T14:29:36Z _death: looks like an idiosyncratic term to me
2020-04-06T14:30:31Z dlowe: yeah, I would interpret as "solving a problem particularly amenable to recursion" but it's not a term of art
2020-04-06T14:30:33Z Bike: recursion on natural numbers? no, i've never heard this term either
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2020-04-06T14:31:00Z phoe: srandon111: which post on SO
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2020-04-06T14:34:05Z beach: I am sure if Daniel Friedman came up with those examples, he probably also supplied a definition of the term.
2020-04-06T14:34:13Z beach: phoe: It the first answer if you Google it.
2020-04-06T14:34:45Z edgar-rft: -> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/32260444/what-is-the-definition-of-natural-recursion
2020-04-06T14:36:24Z phoe: OK - I see it now
2020-04-06T14:38:05Z phoe: it seems to be related to natural numbers, and the most natural operations on these: a check whether a number is zero, adding one to a number, subtracting one from a number
2020-04-06T14:38:19Z Bike: oh, like a natural transformation maybe?
2020-04-06T14:38:38Z phoe: yes, that's my idea
2020-04-06T14:38:55Z phoe: how Church naturals are constructed
2020-04-06T14:38:57Z Bike: well i mean it's not actually natural number related https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_transformation
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2020-04-06T14:40:26Z phoe: if you want to add 1 and 2 in the natural form, you get the stack of (add1 (add1 (add1 0))) which is a Church-encoded 3
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2020-04-06T14:40:41Z phoe: the tail-recursive version does not have this form
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2020-04-06T14:41:12Z phoe: that's what I am thinking
2020-04-06T14:42:55Z _death: think you mean Church numerals
2020-04-06T14:43:39Z _death: i.e. names for numbers
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2020-04-06T14:45:28Z phoe: _death: uh uh yes I mean that
2020-04-06T14:47:57Z _death: http://cmsc-16100.cs.uchicago.edu/2015/Lectures/02-lists.php
2020-04-06T14:51:44Z _death: to me it looks like a didactic device and not much more
2020-04-06T14:53:18Z _death: (there is also a http://cmsc-16100.cs.uchicago.edu/2015/Lectures/04-natural-recursion.php )
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2020-04-06T15:51:22Z jcowan: _death: It's a dao of beginning programming that makes termination trivial to prove
2020-04-06T15:52:24Z jcowan: specifically, structural recursion is correct based on the correctness of structural induction over the domain
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2020-04-06T16:06:46Z vms14: how I make sbcl work as a script with the shebang?
2020-04-06T16:07:03Z vms14: I've tried with #!/path/sbcl but won't load the code, just start
2020-04-06T16:07:10Z vms14: and adding --script to that
2020-04-06T16:07:17Z vms14: but then won't load quicklisp
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2020-04-06T16:12:02Z Xach: vms14: --script does not load .sbclrc so you need to do things more manually.
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2020-04-06T16:12:33Z vms14: thanks Xach, just saw it now on the man page
2020-04-06T16:12:56Z vms14: but I'm not finding a similar flag
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2020-04-06T16:13:59Z _death: you can save an image with quicklisp (and other third-party libraries) loaded
2020-04-06T16:14:27Z vms14: meh, I've just made a shell script
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2020-04-06T16:14:56Z Xach: vms14: what do you mean "similar flag"?
2020-04-06T16:14:58Z vms14: bin/swank    /usr/pkg/bin/sbcl --load /home/vms/swank.lisp
2020-04-06T16:15:13Z vms14: Xach one that does the same as script, but also loading quicklisp
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2020-04-06T16:17:37Z Xach: vms14: no, there is no flag like that, put (load ...) in your script if you want to use quicklisp.
2020-04-06T16:18:33Z vms14: yes, but then I have to make an additional .sh file
2020-04-06T16:19:20Z Xach: vms14: why?
2020-04-06T16:19:31Z vms14: #!/usr/pkg/bin/sbcl --load
2020-04-06T16:19:31Z vms14: (format t ":D~%")
2020-04-06T16:19:31Z vms14:  
2020-04-06T16:19:35Z vms14: this is a test
2020-04-06T16:19:40Z vms14: won't work
2020-04-06T16:19:46Z Xach: Don't do that. Use --script.
2020-04-06T16:19:47Z vms14: with --script it does
2020-04-06T16:19:54Z vms14: but then no quicklisp
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2020-04-06T16:20:07Z Xach: Put (load <path to quicklisp>) in your script if you want to use it.
2020-04-06T16:20:12Z vms14: so for having quicklisp I need to call it externally without a shebang
2020-04-06T16:20:17Z Xach: No, you don't.
2020-04-06T16:20:27Z Xach: Put the code to load quicklisp in your lisp script.
2020-04-06T16:20:40Z vms14: thanks
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2020-04-06T16:25:28Z vms14: like this? #!/usr/pkg/bin/sbcl --load /home/vms/quicklisp/quicklisp/setup.lisp --script
2020-04-06T16:25:34Z vms14: not does not work as script
2020-04-06T16:25:38Z vms14: now*
2020-04-06T16:27:35Z vms14: strange, because when called externally does work
2020-04-06T16:29:54Z Xach: vms14: not at all like that.
2020-04-06T16:30:14Z Xach: Use (load ...) in the script to load quicklisp in the script
2020-04-06T16:30:23Z vms14: ah lol
2020-04-06T16:30:25Z vms14: xD
2020-04-06T16:30:37Z vms14: thanks again
2020-04-06T16:31:36Z Xach: no problem
2020-04-06T16:32:36Z vms14: still the shebang seems to work differently
2020-04-06T16:32:44Z vms14: echo "(html)" | sbcl --noinform --load /home/vms/lisp/html.lisp --script
2020-04-06T16:33:03Z vms14: does work fine, but I have to add --noinform because if not prints a banner even having --script
2020-04-06T16:33:18Z vms14: but with the shebang will enter a repl and do nothing
2020-04-06T16:33:21Z vms14: #!/usr/pkg/bin/sbcl --noinform --load /home/vms/lisp/html.lisp --script
2020-04-06T16:33:41Z Xach: vms14: you cannot have arguments on the shebang line with --script
2020-04-06T16:33:45Z Xach: --script must be the only argument
2020-04-06T16:34:15Z vms14: weird, but got it
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2020-04-06T17:39:08Z srandon111: guys do you commonly use macros?
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2020-04-06T17:41:36Z pjb: srandon111: yes.
2020-04-06T17:44:50Z Xach: srandon111: yes
2020-04-06T17:53:43Z dlowe: srandon111: yes
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2020-04-06T17:58:54Z srandon111: why for example in other lisps such as clcojure the usage of macros is not encouraged ?
2020-04-06T17:59:00Z srandon111: Xach, dlowe phb
2020-04-06T17:59:07Z srandon111: * pjb
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2020-04-06T18:02:25Z dlowe: srandon111: I guess you'll have to ask them
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2020-04-06T18:05:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: srandon111: my experience with Clojure is that many of the developers come from other languages to it and, so, they don't see the value of macros
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2020-04-06T18:06:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: (other, non-lisp languages)
2020-04-06T18:06:14Z dlowe: specifically, in non-lisp languages macros always break things
2020-04-06T18:06:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
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2020-04-06T18:07:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Rich Hickey uses them a lot in the stuff he builds, though
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2020-04-06T18:08:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Another problem is that some macros (go in core.async) use code-walkers to do major program transformations and end up pretty brittle
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2020-04-06T18:08:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, people often have a bad experience using those libraries
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2020-04-06T18:12:14Z conjunctive: srandon111: They believe macros are more difficult to compose than functions, and tend to design interfaces around hash-table literals.
2020-04-06T18:12:38Z conjunctive: fiddlerwoaroof is right, there is still plenty of macro usage in Clojure code.
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2020-04-06T18:16:29Z srandon111: conjunctive, how can i learn/practice them?
2020-04-06T18:16:46Z srandon111: is there any good resource walking you step by step from simple examples to more commples examples ? conjunctive
2020-04-06T18:16:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Paul Graham's On Lisp is a decent introduction
2020-04-06T18:17:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Practical Common Lisp is a better first book to learn about CL
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2020-04-06T18:20:48Z conjunctive: srandon111: I agree with fiddlerwoaroof, Practical Common Lisp is a great introduction.
2020-04-06T18:20:50Z conjunctive: I have heard good things about Let Over Lambda, for working extensively with macros.
2020-04-06T18:21:44Z dlowe: Let Over Lambda is entertainment for lispers.
2020-04-06T18:21:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Let Over Lambda is a bad introduction because a couple of its examples dont' work
2020-04-06T18:22:08Z dlowe: it's an exploration of what's possible
2020-04-06T18:22:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: and it uses standardized functions and macros in non-conforming ways
2020-04-06T18:22:21Z phoe: ^
2020-04-06T18:22:39Z phoe: LOL is a prime example in Lisp mental gymnastics
2020-04-06T18:22:58Z conjunctive: Oh my mistake, thanks for the clarification! I've only just started it.
2020-04-06T18:23:01Z phoe: it is enlightening in many ways and useless in many other ways
2020-04-06T18:23:19Z phoe: after reading multiple Lisp books, I've often come back to Graham's ANSI CL, Practical Common Lisp, On Lisp, CL Recipes
2020-04-06T18:23:20Z White_Flame: on lisp does make a bunch of little utility macros that aren't possible to write as functions
2020-04-06T18:23:24Z phoe: not to LOL though
2020-04-06T18:23:56Z phoe: so, in a way, it's a theoretical book
2020-04-06T18:24:07Z phoe: a very good one, but without much replayability value
2020-04-06T18:24:35Z White_Flame: (although many of On Lisp's utilities will be superceded by alexandria)
2020-04-06T18:25:19Z White_Flame: regarding let-over-lambda, having used codebases written to its style, I vehemently oppose it for actual work
2020-04-06T18:25:31Z White_Flame: for musing about creating an object system from scratch, fine
2020-04-06T18:25:38Z srandon111: White_Flame, what is alexandria?
2020-04-06T18:25:51Z White_Flame: srandon111: it's a very common general utility library
2020-04-06T18:26:20Z phoe: srandon111: a library that is considered by some people to be an essential supplement to the CL package
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2020-04-06T18:27:50Z conjunctive: srandon111: You can find the repo at https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria
2020-04-06T18:28:21Z White_Flame: although as a learner, the simpler On Lisp utilities are easier to see how they're written
2020-04-06T18:28:44Z White_Flame: if you go through the alexandria source code, there's a lot more mindfulness to optimization and ease of use that makes it more complex
2020-04-06T18:28:57Z White_Flame: *makes the implementation more complex
2020-04-06T18:29:49Z conjunctive: On the topic of Lisp books, would you recommend any prelimary material for the MOP book?
2020-04-06T18:31:02Z jcowan: LOL is a careful and thorough explanation of how to do things with macros that are not even worth doing.
2020-04-06T18:31:16Z jcowan: (among other things)
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2020-04-06T18:35:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: conjunctive: PCL, basically
2020-04-06T18:35:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: the first couple chapters of AMOP are a fairly good example of how to design a complex system in common lisp and wrap in in macros
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2020-04-06T19:06:41Z srandon111: thanks conjunctive
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2020-04-06T19:11:42Z eta: is there a function that takes functions A and B and returns (lambda (v) (A (B v))?
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2020-04-06T19:14:50Z ahungry: so a compose like?
2020-04-06T19:15:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: eta: alexandria:compose?
2020-04-06T19:15:30Z ahungry: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Compose_function#Common_Lisp - thats a good sample if you want to just roll your own, its pretty simple/small
2020-04-06T19:17:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: The eval version there is evil
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2020-04-06T19:24:17Z phoe: alexandria:compose is the thing you want
2020-04-06T19:24:29Z phoe: I use it almost as often as I use #'a:curry and #'a:rcurry
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2020-04-06T19:44:41Z dlowe wistfully wishes they had called it papply instead of curry
2020-04-06T19:45:46Z splittist: you can always use serapeum:partial (I think)
2020-04-06T19:46:41Z dlowe: I don't care that much
2020-04-06T19:46:53Z dlowe: just enough to complain about it
2020-04-06T19:47:05Z dlowe: it's a very specific level of discomfort
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2020-04-06T19:47:28Z Shinmera: Seems like my normal level of comfort overall
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2020-04-06T20:07:45Z phoe: the mythical weltschmerz
2020-04-06T20:09:17Z phoe: ...cl-weltschmerz is a tempting project name
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2020-04-06T20:17:48Z LdBeth: good mornig
2020-04-06T20:17:54Z cybercafe: hello friends
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2020-04-06T20:21:12Z eta: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks, that function's great :)
2020-04-06T20:22:38Z LdBeth: eta: It seems you might like to have threading macro too
2020-04-06T20:23:03Z eta: LdBeth: is that the arrow function thing?
2020-04-06T20:23:12Z LdBeth: yes
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2020-04-06T20:33:25Z pjb: srandon111: people tend to discourage the use of what THEY cannot master.  For example, in C, it is strongly discouraged to use inner functions, since it's impossible to write them.  In C++ it's discouraged to use OOP, since they cannot do multiple inheritance correctly. etc.
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2020-04-06T20:56:03Z aeth: pjb: "Everyone knows that debugging is twice as hard as writing a program in the first place. So if you're as clever as you can be when you write it, how will you ever debug it?" https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Brian_Kernighan
2020-04-06T20:56:29Z aeth: in particular, anything here in this thread about C's switch is clever: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22789304
2020-04-06T20:58:43Z phoe: Lisp makes it possible to debug things that are undebuggable in other languages
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2020-04-06T20:59:14Z aeth: Lisp also makes it possible to have things be undebuggable that are debuggable in other languages. e.g. most uses of the programmable reader
2020-04-06T20:59:16Z phoe: but it also makes it possible to write 100% clusterfuck code that is impossible to debug even in Lisp
2020-04-06T20:59:22Z phoe: yes
2020-04-06T20:59:24Z eta: but only if you use HANDLER-BIND instead of HANDLER-CASE and INVOKE-DEBUGGER :p
2020-04-06T20:59:28Z phoe: not really
2020-04-06T20:59:43Z phoe: you can easily write a reader macro that reads and executes a Malbolge program
2020-04-06T20:59:48Z phoe: try debugging that
2020-04-06T21:00:23Z eta: ew
2020-04-06T21:00:35Z eta: phoe: oh yeah, you also can't debug recursive macro expansions
2020-04-06T21:00:44Z srandon111: phoe, how?
2020-04-06T21:00:49Z eta: unless you very carefully macroexpand-1 everything
2020-04-06T21:02:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: eta: macroexpansions aren't that bad with Slime's macrostepper
2020-04-06T21:02:58Z eta: fiddlerwoaroof: true
2020-04-06T21:03:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are a couple edge-cases
2020-04-06T21:03:06Z eta: but if you try and compile a whole file
2020-04-06T21:03:10Z eta: then you're done for
2020-04-06T21:03:18Z eta: SBCL just blows its stack and moans at you
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2020-04-06T21:23:20Z pjb: aeth: definitely. This is why a good way to debug some code, is to rewrite it from scratch!
2020-04-06T21:24:21Z pjb: which is also a good reason why you should have modular code.  So you don't have to rewrite everything, but just the bad module or function.
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2020-04-06T22:37:17Z jasom: aeth: I used to use that Kernighan quote, but I now disagree with it.  I think debugging and writing software are different (though not entirely orthogonal) skills.  Over the past 10 years I've written very little code for work, but I've debugged others' code a heck of a lot.  My debugging skills have shot way up while my development skills have atrophied a bit.  I would say at this point that I am better at
2020-04-06T22:37:19Z jasom: debugging code I've never seen before than I am at writing a project from scratch.
2020-04-06T22:37:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, my experience is that debugging is often easier than writing the code
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2020-04-06T22:38:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. when the cleverness/intelligence was in seeing a very simple way to solve a problem
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2020-04-06T22:39:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or seeing the problem as an application of a more general problem
2020-04-06T22:40:38Z jasom: Also very few bugs are novel.  I've on occasion suggested fixes to customers code without having ever seen the code, just from observing the symptoms.
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2020-04-06T23:25:06Z aeth: jasom: I suppose it's more accurately about reading than debugging, as in, it's harder to read (clever) code than to write it. e.g. regex
2020-04-06T23:25:27Z aeth: I'm not sure that's true, either, though. There are definitely lots of things that take all day to write a handful of lines
2020-04-06T23:25:41Z aeth: In that case, it's a bit hard to separate writing from debugging, though
2020-04-06T23:26:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've used regexes so much by now that I forget people have trouble reading them :)
2020-04-06T23:26:37Z aeth: which regexes matter
2020-04-06T23:26:49Z aeth: some languages let you do multiline and even commented regex
2020-04-06T23:27:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I mean the standard, compressed "line-noise" regexes
2020-04-06T23:27:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. (?:[a-z]{2,})? stuff
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2020-04-06T23:28:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a bit like APL: for someone just getting started the syntax is gibberish, once you've really internalized it, it's the most efficient way to express precisely what you mean in the problem space.
2020-04-06T23:30:59Z aeth: Idk, I think regex is kind of like sh. It can't scale. Or, rather, it can scale but why would you?
2020-04-06T23:31:24Z aeth: that is, you can do neat one liners, but at some point, it's not the best tool
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2020-04-06T23:43:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, but as a DSL for specifying sets of strings inside a larger program, it's really nice
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2020-04-06T23:58:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: (SETF DRAKMA:*HEADER-STREAM* (SWANK-BUFFER-STREAMS:MAKE-BUFFER-OUTPUT-STREAM))
2020-04-06T23:58:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is pretty nice: I can turn on http-mode in the resulting emacs buffer and get a nice colorized log of http requests next to my repl
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2020-04-07T00:13:26Z jcowan: fiddlerwoaroof: Except that a lot of people don't actually understand the corner cases, such as that normally . does not match newlines, and ^ and $ match beginning and end of line, not beginning and end of string
2020-04-07T00:13:41Z jcowan: there are s, m flags to change there
2020-04-07T00:13:45Z jcowan: these
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2020-04-07T00:17:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, and there are a half dozen slightly-incompatible implementations
2020-04-07T00:17:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Python regex != PCRE != vim/sed != JS
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2020-04-07T00:45:24Z aeth: vim/sed regex are the same? I wouldn't be surprised if vim, sed, and ed all are slightly (if not more than slightly) incompatible
2020-04-07T00:45:37Z jcowan: yes, two standards (Posix BRE and ERE) and Ghu knows how many non-standards
2020-04-07T00:45:40Z aeth: Also, I think pcre and Perl regex are different
2020-04-07T00:45:51Z jcowan: chibi irregex/show FTW
2020-04-07T00:46:10Z jcowan: They are different
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2020-04-07T01:09:56Z asarch: One stupid question: how is that, that in Caveman2 you can actually write expressions like @route GET "/" if, as far I know, every Lisp expression should be enclosed in parentheses?
2020-04-07T01:10:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: vim/sed I think both can take options to make their syntaxes roughly compatible
2020-04-07T01:10:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: similar to how grep is one syntax and grep -E is a different one
2020-04-07T01:11:03Z no-defun-allowed: asarch: That would require a "reader macro", which sets a function to read the rest of that expression after the @ character.
2020-04-07T01:11:20Z no-defun-allowed: and honestly, it's really dumb and looks out of place, but indeed it's possible.
2020-04-07T01:11:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: vim also adds "magic" mode where you have to put a backslash before certain regex chars
2020-04-07T01:11:54Z asarch: How would you create such expression? (defmacro @ () ...)?
2020-04-07T01:12:08Z asarch scratches his head...
2020-04-07T01:12:16Z no-defun-allowed: Did I not just say reader macro?
2020-04-07T01:12:23Z no-defun-allowed: clhs set-macro-character
2020-04-07T01:12:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ma.htm
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2020-04-07T01:14:52Z asarch: Mmmm... the server is down. Let's sudo apt-get -y install hyperspec
2020-04-07T01:15:08Z no-defun-allowed: It works here.
2020-04-07T01:16:16Z no-defun-allowed: In the MOP, are accessors guaranteed to use SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS?
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2020-04-07T01:20:06Z asarch: How could I "expand" @ to see what is actually doing (a la macroexpand)?
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2020-04-07T01:21:19Z no-defun-allowed: I think you could prefix it with ' to get the generated code; but you would probably also need the expression after it that it annotates too.
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2020-04-07T01:55:00Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, if I have a class C1 with a metaclass M1, with a superclass C2 which has metaclass M2 and a slot S, should (slot-value <instance of C1> 'S) invoke the SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS method specialised on C1?
2020-04-07T01:55:53Z pjb: asarch: using macroexpand or macroexpand-1.
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2020-04-07T01:56:36Z pjb: asarch: oh, you mean the @route, not the macro you defmacro @'ed.
2020-04-07T01:56:53Z pjb: It's a reader macro, so: (read-from-string "@route GET \"/\"")
2020-04-07T01:57:13Z pjb: asarch: note however that some reader macro perform some processing.
2020-04-07T01:57:49Z pjb: asarch: for example, #S creates and return the structure. (defstruct point x y) (read-from-string "#S(point :x 1 :y 2)") #| --> #S(point :x 1 :y 2) ; 19 |#
2020-04-07T01:58:43Z pjb: asarch: on the other hand, #' doesn't: (print-conses (read-from-string "#'sin")) #| (function  . (sin  . ())) --> #'sin |#
2020-04-07T01:59:48Z pjb: asarch: it would probably be better to read the source…
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2020-04-07T02:17:06Z rpg: Anyone know of any CL library that will take an OpenAPI/Swagger spec and synthesize a *server* stub? There are two libraries that, although they look unmaintained, promise to provide OpenAPI clients, but I don't see any mention of servers.
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2020-04-07T03:17:40Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-04-07T03:17:45Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-)
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2020-04-07T03:18:19Z asarch: Ok, I will
2020-04-07T03:19:58Z Bike: no-defun-allowed: slot-value-using-class uses effective slot definitions, so yeah M2 won't enter into it I don't think.
2020-04-07T03:20:20Z no-defun-allowed: Righteo, thanks.
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2020-04-07T03:21:41Z no-defun-allowed: That is what I observed getting it to work with ABCL.
2020-04-07T03:25:59Z beach:  Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-07T05:57:56Z matzy_: does anyone have a good modern tutorial on how to get a basic hunchentoot server running locally on your machine just to practice?
2020-04-07T05:58:17Z matzy_: all the tutorials i'm finding are really old or are actually configuring a prod server with the library
2020-04-07T05:58:20Z no-defun-allowed: The Hunchentoot manual has a..two liner I think on how to do that.
2020-04-07T05:58:34Z no-defun-allowed: https://edicl.github.io/hunchentoot/#teen-age A one liner, even.
2020-04-07T05:59:34Z matzy_: damn that's even simpler than what i have now.  but dont you need to call something in slime to get it going?
2020-04-07T06:00:33Z matzy_: you cant just paste that in a file and access it from a browser, something has to trigger it to start
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2020-04-07T06:00:58Z beach: You need to start your Common Lisp system, but you don't need SLIME for that.
2020-04-07T06:02:07Z matzy_: hmm what do you mean by that?  I've always thought of SLIME as the thing that starts your CL system
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2020-04-07T06:02:32Z matzy_: obviously i'm a beginner and trying to learn, been working my way through PCL
2020-04-07T06:03:02Z beach: SLIME is starting your Common Lisp for you.  If that system happens to be SBCL, then you can start it by typing `sbcl' at the command line.
2020-04-07T06:03:20Z beach: You should see a `*' prompt.
2020-04-07T06:03:36Z matzy_: oh yeah i forgot about running sbcl directly
2020-04-07T06:05:34Z matzy_: that still doesn't make sense though. i surely need some command to start the specific api program i wrote though, right?
2020-04-07T06:05:59Z matzy_: just running sbcl in the directly doesnt load the page on localhost with the correct port
2020-04-07T06:06:01Z no-defun-allowed: What program have you written?
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2020-04-07T06:06:47Z matzy_:  
2020-04-07T06:06:47Z matzy_: (ql:quickload :hunchentoot)
2020-04-07T06:06:47Z matzy_: (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor :port 4242))
2020-04-07T06:06:50Z matzy_:  
2020-04-07T06:06:53Z matzy_: (hunchentoot:define-easy-handler (say-yo :uri "/yo") (name)
2020-04-07T06:06:56Z matzy_:   (setf (hunchentoot:content-type*) "text/plain")
2020-04-07T06:06:58Z matzy_:   (format nil "Hey~@[ ~A~]!" name))
2020-04-07T06:07:01Z matzy_: sorry that's a shitty way to paste code i know
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2020-04-07T06:07:56Z matzy_: but i'm not sure what command to run in SLIME or sbcl to "kick it off"
2020-04-07T06:08:43Z no-defun-allowed: You can use (load "filename") to load a file, or start sbcl using sbcl --load filename.lisp
2020-04-07T06:12:04Z matzy_: wow i feel like an idiot.  that's exactly what i was missing.  thanks a million!
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2020-04-07T08:35:19Z matzy_: ok i have another question if anyone's around, hopefully it's less stupid
2020-04-07T08:36:51Z matzy_: so if i define an *acceptor* (I believe it is a class) and pass it to (hunchentoot:start *acceptor*) (literally that's my code), I get an error
2020-04-07T08:37:22Z matzy_: but if i do a one-liner with (hunchentoot:start) it works fine
2020-04-07T08:37:52Z matzy_: so this: (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor :port 4242))
2020-04-07T08:38:04Z matzy_: from everything i've learned so far about lisp this makes no sense
2020-04-07T08:40:36Z Shinmera: From your description I have no idea what you're doing, so
2020-04-07T08:45:00Z matzy_: literally copying and pasting the third and fourth codeblocks on this page to see how serving files works: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/web.html
2020-04-07T08:47:12Z matzy_: whereas the one-liner (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor :port 4242)) run without any errors
2020-04-07T08:47:52Z Shinmera: That still doesn't tell me what you're doing.
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2020-04-07T08:49:50Z matzy_: so the first example doesn't work either. I should clarify. Directly under the "Simple Webserver" huge heading, there's another "Serve Local Files" big header, and then under that is a "Hunchentoot" header, and it's the subsequent codeblocks that i'm literally pasting in emacs and they're not working
2020-04-07T08:50:17Z Shinmera: The code is obviously correct so whatever you're actually doing that isn't code must be wrong.
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2020-04-07T09:34:22Z no-defun-allowed: Is Ironclad supposed to be fast?
2020-04-07T09:36:38Z no-defun-allowed: I suppose so; it's probably not the bottleneck in my program. Never mind.
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2020-04-07T09:40:49Z Shinmera: It won't be as fast as crypto algorithms that were hand tuned by tons of people, but it's good enough (at least on SBCL)
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2020-04-07T09:42:14Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, it's about 1/4 the speed of OpenSSL on my laptop.
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2020-04-07T09:43:20Z no-defun-allowed continues to look for the bottleneck
2020-04-07T09:43:35Z loke`: Is anyone maintaining ironclad?
2020-04-07T09:43:45Z loke`: I'd like support for SHA-3 for example.
2020-04-07T09:44:16Z phoe: loke`: yes, the sharplispers collective.
2020-04-07T09:46:22Z MichaelRaskin: Note that assembly implementations of cryptographic algorithms are usually also tuned against timing leaks.
2020-04-07T09:49:28Z p_l: sharplispers collective, eh?
2020-04-07T09:49:39Z p_l: might seek place there if I get more "free" time
2020-04-07T09:51:11Z jackdaniel: if I ever start a collective I'll call it dulllispers, three "l" there look like a great typo
2020-04-07T09:51:20Z phoe: dul³ispers
2020-04-07T09:51:26Z jackdaniel: no
2020-04-07T09:51:38Z phoe: :(
2020-04-07T09:51:43Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, you could square the S while you're at it
2020-04-07T09:52:44Z jackdaniel: sure, but that wouldn't be a collective then
2020-04-07T09:52:47Z aeth: s/l/λ/ and you have a half life 3 joke there, too
2020-04-07T09:53:08Z aeth: while also being relevant to Lisp because of the lambda.
2020-04-07T09:53:17Z jackdaniel: :) /me gets back to ecl
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2020-04-07T10:17:02Z drainful: What about embracing the typo look with dullllispers
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2020-04-07T10:49:54Z jackdaniel: are these lambda lists [gf] (A &REST ARGS &KEY FOO &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS) and [method] (A &KEY PAYLOAD) congruent?
2020-04-07T10:49:58Z jackdaniel: clhs 7.6.4
2020-04-07T10:49:58Z specbot: Congruent Lambda-lists for all Methods of a Generic Function: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm
2020-04-07T10:50:24Z jackdaniel: reading 4th point carefully seems to say: "no", because "each method must accept all of the keyword names mentioned after &key, either by accepting them explicitly, by specifying &allow-other-keys, or by specifying &rest but not &key."
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2020-04-07T10:50:34Z jackdaniel: do I miss something?
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2020-04-07T10:53:07Z jackdaniel: also
2020-04-07T10:53:09Z jackdaniel: clhs 7.6.5
2020-04-07T10:53:09Z specbot: Keyword Arguments in Generic Functions and Methods: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fe.htm
2020-04-07T10:56:47Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: But point 5 says &allow-other-keys may be omitted as long as it is on at least one method or the gf.
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2020-04-07T11:02:08Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: point 5. says "any keyword arguments may be mentioned in the call to the generic function. ", not "then method doesn't have to accept all of the keyword names mentioned after &key"
2020-04-07T11:02:33Z jackdaniel: so as I read it it says about calling the function, not about defining a method
2020-04-07T11:04:00Z Shinmera: 7.6.5 also says: If the lambda list of any applicable method or of the generic function definition contains &allow-other-keys, all keyword arguments are accepted by the generic function.
2020-04-07T11:04:14Z Shinmera: hmm.
2020-04-07T11:04:22Z jackdaniel: still it says about calling the function
2020-04-07T11:05:05Z Shinmera: Well, I'll give you the practical answer of: if you made it illegal to omit keyword arguments you would break a lot of code out there :)
2020-04-07T11:05:20Z jackdaniel: only one library breaks on quicklisp (maiden)
2020-04-07T11:05:36Z Shinmera: Oh, really?
2020-04-07T11:05:41Z jackdaniel: affirmative
2020-04-07T11:06:07Z jackdaniel: hm, maybe not -- I don't know. only one library in the pivot table from testing
2020-04-07T11:06:22Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/uploads/b754370025423cb0d90595d8d67e1d93/ecl-pivot-ccmp.html
2020-04-07T11:06:53Z jackdaniel: coungruency predicate didn't change, so there may be more
2020-04-07T11:07:34Z jackdaniel: either way, question is about conformance to standard, not to sbcl :)
2020-04-07T11:07:40Z Shinmera: Well if it's just me then of course I'll change it.
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2020-04-07T11:12:36Z Shinmera: Should be fixed.
2020-04-07T11:13:57Z jackdaniel: thanks, I'm still wondering if the interpretation should be loosened on ECL. I'll see what other implementations do
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2020-04-07T11:32:56Z kpoeck: Hello
2020-04-07T11:33:03Z jackdaniel: o/
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2020-04-07T11:34:06Z kpoeck: There seem to be cases where repositories are both on github and https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ and the content is not the same
2020-04-07T11:34:50Z jackdaniel: interesting, maybe that are forks? or mirrors?
2020-04-07T11:34:55Z jackdaniel: well, bad mirrors if so
2020-04-07T11:35:34Z kpoeck: In you case https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/mcclim and https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM
2020-04-07T11:35:45Z kpoeck: in your case
2020-04-07T11:36:58Z kpoeck: The latest commit on https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/mcclim/mcclim/-/commits/master is like 7 years ago, so this is probably abandonned
2020-04-07T11:37:22Z jackdaniel: I'll see if I can configure it to pull from github and act as a mirror
2020-04-07T11:37:44Z jackdaniel: I'm one of members of the group and we have there mcclim-website and such
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2020-04-07T11:39:19Z kpoeck: I am asking since I just made a pr to zacl on https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/zbeane/zacl and there is also https://github.com/xach/zacl
2020-04-07T11:40:20Z kpoeck: in this case the github version seems to be abandonned and is missing 1 year of changes
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2020-04-07T12:17:30Z Xach: kpoeck: i can explain for zacl
2020-04-07T12:18:01Z kpoeck: please
2020-04-07T12:18:04Z Xach: kpoeck: zacl was paid work and the payor demanded i use common-lisp.net. after the payment was done i switched to github, because that's what i prefer.
2020-04-07T12:18:39Z kpoeck: ok, so i did the pr in the right repository
2020-04-07T12:18:43Z Xach: well
2020-04-07T12:19:08Z Xach: i'm not sure that's true!
2020-04-07T12:19:17Z kpoeck: huh?
2020-04-07T12:19:51Z Xach: I just looked and quicklisp pulls from clnet, which is a surprise to me.
2020-04-07T12:20:02Z Xach: So I will check on the difference between repos and see which should truly be used.
2020-04-07T12:20:02Z kpoeck: sorry i read you message exactly backwors
2020-04-07T12:20:10Z Xach: No - it's not a clear situation
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2020-04-07T12:22:09Z kpoeck: A technical question, in zacl - or better in zaserve - I have the problem that the "MP" package is used both in zacl and in clasp
2020-04-07T12:22:20Z kpoeck: And 2 symbols clash in the definition
2020-04-07T12:22:42Z kpoeck: Is this a case where package local nicknames can help me out?
2020-04-07T12:22:48Z Bike: clasp should probably rename it clasp-mp or something, then.
2020-04-07T12:23:10Z phoe: MP, short for multiprocessing, is a pacakge name that is likely collide
2020-04-07T12:23:15Z phoe: likely to collide*
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2020-04-07T12:23:23Z kpoeck: Bike, that would be the best idea
2020-04-07T12:23:56Z Xach: kpoeck: it looks as though the clnet one is the most up-to-date and i can accomodate PRs there
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2020-04-07T12:25:16Z eta: is there a way to check whether a string is valid UTF-8?
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2020-04-07T12:25:32Z Shinmera: strings have no encoding.
2020-04-07T12:25:47Z Bike: pretty easy to do with a byte vector, tho.
2020-04-07T12:26:35Z eta: Shinmera, okay, is there a way to check whether a string would *encode* to valid UTF-8? ;P
2020-04-07T12:26:51Z eta: I guess I could try using babel:string-to-octets and catch an error
2020-04-07T12:26:57Z Bike: how would it not encode? like if a character isn't in unicode?
2020-04-07T12:27:03Z Shinmera: if your implementation uses the unicode character set then it must.
2020-04-07T12:27:09Z Shinmera: no need to check.
2020-04-07T12:27:25Z eta: oh right
2020-04-07T12:27:33Z eta: so it's impossible for SBCL to read a string that isn't unicode?
2020-04-07T12:27:48Z loke`: eta: sure it is
2020-04-07T12:28:20Z Shinmera: unicode attempts to cover every character set out there, meaning the chance you get a string with a character set not covered by unicode is extremely slim.
2020-04-07T12:28:23Z eta: basically I'm debugging a crash where a "Illegal :UTF-8 character starting at position 0." error got thrown
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2020-04-07T12:28:39Z Shinmera: well then you're dealing with bytes, not strings.
2020-04-07T12:28:42Z Bike: okay, so you have a stream of _bytes_
2020-04-07T12:28:53Z loke`: Shinmera: actually it depends on Lisp implementation. Unicode only support 21 bits (well, a bit over 20 bits to be precise).
2020-04-07T12:29:13Z eta: urgh
2020-04-07T12:29:13Z loke`: If you have an implementation that allows characters above that, then you have invalidUnicode.
2020-04-07T12:29:18Z eta: I should just try and get a backtrace I guess
2020-04-07T12:29:28Z Bike: are you reading from a file or something?
2020-04-07T12:29:33Z eta: Bike, no I'm building a whatsapp bridge
2020-04-07T12:29:38Z Shinmera: loke`: Well I did say if your implementation uses the unicode character set.
2020-04-07T12:29:45Z Bike: well you're reading some kind of stream.
2020-04-07T12:29:48Z eta: and I think some idiot might have managed to set their whatsapp status to a non-UTF-8 string
2020-04-07T12:29:48Z loke`: But, in SBCL as far as I can remember, a character is defined to be a valid Unicode codepoint, in that implementation there is no such thing as an invalid string.
2020-04-07T12:29:51Z eta: oh yeah, multiple all over the place
2020-04-07T12:29:55Z eta: which is why a backtrace would help :p
2020-04-07T12:30:06Z eta: lessee here
2020-04-07T12:30:19Z eta: there isn't a BREAK-ON-SIGNALS that only breaks on error, or is there?
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2020-04-07T12:30:46Z Bike: you can set *break-on-signals* to 'error
2020-04-07T12:30:55Z Bike: it's a type of conditions to break on, not a boolean.
2020-04-07T12:31:01Z loke`: eta: You can use the INCOV package (on quicklisp). It has the most robust error recovery parsing.
2020-04-07T12:31:08Z Bike: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Supported-External-Formats here's a list of the encodings supported by sbcl, if it helps.
2020-04-07T12:31:09Z eta: Bike, oh snap
2020-04-07T12:31:17Z eta: that's really useful
2020-04-07T12:31:26Z loke`: eta: It provides restarts that allows you to look at the invalid text and then invoke the restart with the specified replacement character.
2020-04-07T12:31:38Z loke`: I mean ICONV package
2020-04-07T12:31:49Z eta: loke`, thanks, I'll take a look :)
2020-04-07T12:33:00Z Shinmera: eta: it's likely that there's some byte padding or some other structure that you're not skipping.
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2020-04-07T12:35:58Z eta: Shinmera, hmm, no, I think the issue is JS strings are UTF-16, right?
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2020-04-07T12:36:11Z eta: JSON*, rather
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2020-04-07T12:36:43Z Shinmera: eh? JSON is a character format
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2020-04-07T12:37:13Z eta: well check out {\\\"status\\\":\\\"\\\\ud83c\\\\uddf5\\\\ud83c\\\\uddf9\\\\ud83c\\\\uddec\\\\ud83c\\\\udde7\\\"}
2020-04-07T12:37:16Z Shinmera: unless you're talking about BSON, which is another deal entirely.
2020-04-07T12:37:18Z eta: whatever this string is, it seems to be causing Problems
2020-04-07T12:37:35Z Shinmera: those are the raw codepoints.
2020-04-07T12:37:42Z eta: yeah
2020-04-07T12:37:48Z Shinmera: so there is no encoding.
2020-04-07T12:38:12Z Shinmera: you need to replace every \uX by the result of (code-char X)
2020-04-07T12:38:37Z eta: Shinmera, no, but is it possible that encoding that string as UTF-8 throws an error
2020-04-07T12:39:02Z Shinmera gives up
2020-04-07T12:39:12Z eta: sorry :(
2020-04-07T12:39:54Z Bike: what shinmera is trying to say is that you seem to be persistently confusing strings and their encodings as byte sequences. That string is perfectly encodable as UTF-8; but you're not dealing with a string, you're dealing with a byte sequence you got from the wire or something.
2020-04-07T12:40:24Z eta: Bike, what if it contained an unpaired UTF-16 surrogate?
2020-04-07T12:40:30Z eta: (or can lisp strings not contain those)
2020-04-07T12:40:37Z Bike: there are no UTF-16 surrogates in strings. Strings are composed of characters.
2020-04-07T12:40:44Z jcowan: When you represent characters in JSON strings as backslashed \uxxxx, you havd to use UTF-16 conventions.  But the encodijng of a JSON value should always be UTF-8.
2020-04-07T12:41:17Z eta: Bike, so what you're saying is, strings are always sequences of valid characters?
2020-04-07T12:41:18Z jcowan: so "\D800" is an invalid string
2020-04-07T12:41:31Z Bike: eta: Yes, and in fact there are no "invalid characters".
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2020-04-07T12:41:47Z eta: just invalid byte sequences?
2020-04-07T12:41:50Z Bike: No!
2020-04-07T12:41:56Z Bike: There are no bytes! A string is made of characters.
2020-04-07T12:42:06Z Bike: It's a high level data type.
2020-04-07T12:42:29Z eta: sure
2020-04-07T12:42:35Z eta: what I meant to say is
2020-04-07T12:42:43Z eta: encoding errors only arise when you're going to/from byte sequences?
2020-04-07T12:43:00Z Bike: Well, yes. How would you get an encoding error except while encoding?
2020-04-07T12:43:39Z eta: ...this is a good point ;p
2020-04-07T12:43:41Z jcowan: At that level, yes.  But then JSON string values can generate errors if they contain invalid escape sequences.  Those are encoding/decoding errors at a different level
2020-04-07T12:43:47Z Bike: The error you showed looks like you're trying to decode a stream of bytes into a string, but the byte sequence is not actually UTF-8.
2020-04-07T12:44:07Z eta: jcowan, that's exactly what I was thinking!
2020-04-07T12:44:27Z eta: well I managed to crash SLIME with this weird string, somehow
2020-04-07T12:44:51Z eta: oh wait, no
2020-04-07T12:44:58Z eta: jcowan, you mean if the \uXXXX isn't actually a valid codepoint
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2020-04-07T12:46:03Z jcowan: Or pair of surrogates.
2020-04-07T12:47:36Z edgar-rft: let's introduce NOT-ENCODING-ERROR conditions for errors that happen while not encoding
2020-04-07T12:48:41Z eta: aha!
2020-04-07T12:48:42Z mood: That does not apply to the string posted though, that (with some \\ removed) appears to be a Portuguese flag followed by a British flag
2020-04-07T12:48:44Z eta: Error during string-to-utf8: Unable to encode character 55356 as :UTF-8.
2020-04-07T12:48:44Z eta: (:write-string "\"\xD83C\xDDF5\xD83C\xDDF9\xD83C\xDDEC\xD83C\xDDE7\"" :repl-result)
2020-04-07T12:48:50Z eta: look, a character you can't encode as utf-8
2020-04-07T12:50:50Z eta: urgh, this is doing my head in
2020-04-07T12:50:56Z eta: because apparently you can
2020-04-07T12:52:01Z eta: I think I hit https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/527
2020-04-07T12:52:08Z eta: (ironically, which Shinmera reported)
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2020-04-07T12:53:33Z Shinmera: Good times implementing unicode standards.
2020-04-07T12:55:18Z eta: so it looks like I need to scan through the JSON strings for characters that are invalid in UTF-8
2020-04-07T12:55:32Z Bike: So the problem here is that the codepoint DEAD is a surrogate and not actually a character?
2020-04-07T12:56:13Z eta: Bike, yeah
2020-04-07T12:56:16Z eta: it's a surrogate half
2020-04-07T12:56:21Z eta: which you can't encode in UTF-8
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2020-04-07T12:56:30Z Bike: It's not a character, so you can't encode it.
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2020-04-07T12:57:05Z eta: Bike, oh yes it is
2020-04-07T12:57:08Z eta: > (type-of #\UD83C)
2020-04-07T12:57:08Z eta: EXTENDED-CHAR
2020-04-07T12:57:10Z Bike: i suppose a lisp implementation should err or something on (code-char #xDEAD)
2020-04-07T12:57:21Z eta: (it shouldn't be though)
2020-04-07T12:57:40Z eta: tbf I think CL-JSON should really throw the error here
2020-04-07T12:57:45Z mood: Hmm, babel doesn't complain while encoding it, only while decoding
2020-04-07T12:57:52Z eta: mood, yeah I found that as well
2020-04-07T12:57:56Z eta: weird
2020-04-07T12:58:12Z Bike: utf-8 is simple enough that you could come up with a byte sequence for the DEAD codepoint fine
2020-04-07T12:58:29Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8#Description it's very easy
2020-04-07T12:59:13Z Bike: so i suppose more pedantically we would say that UTF-8 is an encoding of code points to bytes, not characters to bytes
2020-04-07T12:59:28Z eta: Bike, but you aren't allowed
2020-04-07T12:59:29Z eta: > Since RFC 3629 (November 2003), the high and low surrogate halves used by UTF-16 (U+D800 through U+DFFF) and code points not encodable by UTF-16 (those after U+10FFFF) are not legal Unicode values, and their UTF-8 encoding must be treated as an invalid byte sequence.
2020-04-07T12:59:40Z eta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8#Invalid_code_points
2020-04-07T13:00:06Z Bike: babel is noncoformant to RFC 3629, oh nooooo
2020-04-07T13:00:32Z Bike: actually i'm not sure about the particulars of what this means. you can encode it but not decode it, maybe?
2020-04-07T13:00:59Z splittist:  What about all the lisp strings between 1958 and November 2003? (Bring back EXPLODE)
2020-04-07T13:01:07Z eta: here, I wrote a function which fixes this
2020-04-07T13:01:09Z eta: (defun replace-surrogates (str)
2020-04-07T13:01:09Z eta:              (substitute-if #\uFFFD (lambda (ch) (and (>= (char-code ch) #xD800) (<= (char-code ch) #xDFFF))) str))
2020-04-07T13:02:05Z splittist: <= #xD800 (char-code ch) #xDFFF ?
2020-04-07T13:02:20Z Bike: yeah, prolly easier to read that way
2020-04-07T13:02:29Z eta: splittist, you can do that??!?!?
2020-04-07T13:02:32Z eta: woooooah
2020-04-07T13:02:38Z eta: I've been wanting to do something like that for ages :o
2020-04-07T13:02:59Z eta: that's amazing :)
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2020-04-07T13:06:45Z eta: oh okay
2020-04-07T13:06:52Z eta: so this is actually CL-JSON's fault, I think
2020-04-07T13:07:07Z didi: Great use of method's `:around': memmoizing values.
2020-04-07T13:07:11Z eta: it should be reading the UTF-16 surrogate pairs and pairing them up instead of just blindly calling CODE-CHAR
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2020-04-07T13:07:49Z eta: this is https://github.com/hankhero/cl-json/issues/11
2020-04-07T13:09:40Z Shinmera: UTF-16 is a curse that will never leave us, much like CRLF and Tab characters
2020-04-07T13:10:16Z eta: maybe I should switch to another JSON library... :p
2020-04-07T13:10:50Z Bike: well, it looks like yason handles it correctly
2020-04-07T13:11:09Z Shinmera: what about jsown and jonathan and... what was the other one
2020-04-07T13:11:20Z Shinmera: *the other two thousand that no doubt exist
2020-04-07T13:11:21Z eta: st-json?
2020-04-07T13:11:21Z mood: st-json
2020-04-07T13:11:21Z eta: urgh
2020-04-07T13:11:28Z eta: which one do I pick now
2020-04-07T13:11:35Z beach: eta: While we are at it, errors are not "thrown" in Common Lisp.  They are signaled.  It is important because THROW means something entirely different in Common Lisp.
2020-04-07T13:12:17Z eta: beach, sorry! I do know that, just don't take much care and abuse the term 'throw' >_< I'll try and be more careful though!
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2020-04-07T13:14:21Z Bike: oh, i see, cl:code-char is defined to return NIL if the code doesn't correspond to a character
2020-04-07T13:14:24Z Bike: weird but whatever
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2020-04-07T13:18:17Z jcowan: Why is that bad?  Think of code-char as searching a notional association list between codes and chars.
2020-04-07T13:19:08Z kpoeck: in sbcl (list (code-char #xD83C) (code-char #xDDF5) (code-char #xD83C) (code-char #xDDF99) (code-char #xD83C) (code-char #xDDEC) (code-char #xD83C) (code-char #xDDE7)) -> (#\UD83C #\UDDF5 #\UD83C #\UDDF99 #\UD83C #\UDDEC #\UD83C #\UDDE7)
2020-04-07T13:19:45Z Bike: jcowan: because i'd prefer a "code X does not correspond to a character" to a "NIL is not of type CHARACTER"
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2020-04-07T13:20:23Z jcowan: Fair enough
2020-04-07T13:21:33Z _death: Bike: it's worse than that, if NIL is interpreted as something else.. this is another pitfall (maybe it should've been called code-char-p)
2020-04-07T13:21:57Z Bike: true, NIL is also a string designator
2020-04-07T13:22:00Z Bike: that could get funky
2020-04-07T13:22:10Z jcowan: There really are a whole lot of conventions for representing the behavior of partial functions: value vs. NIL, value vs. no values, two values (some value and validity flag), a Maybe class object
2020-04-07T13:22:36Z Bike: indeed
2020-04-07T13:22:50Z jcowan: nil is a designator?? for what string?
2020-04-07T13:23:01Z White_Flame: all symbols are string designators
2020-04-07T13:23:03Z Bike: "NIL"
2020-04-07T13:23:07Z jcowan: Oh, of course
2020-04-07T13:23:24Z Bike: what tangled webs we weave...
2020-04-07T13:23:38Z jcowan: ... when we engage in data punning
2020-04-07T13:23:56Z Bike: so (length (string (code-char whatever))) could be either 1 or 3
2020-04-07T13:27:04Z eta: sounds like I want https://github.com/anarchodin/trivial-utf-16, which isn't in quicklisp :(
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2020-04-07T13:29:29Z Shinmera: just use babel
2020-04-07T13:29:38Z White_Flame: eta: then clone it and symlink the directory from ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2020-04-07T13:29:48Z White_Flame: then it's in (your) quicklisp
2020-04-07T13:29:52Z eta: Shinmera, babel can't do what I want though
2020-04-07T13:29:59Z eta: White_Flame, well that's no good, I'm writing a library :P
2020-04-07T13:30:06Z eta: eh, I'll just include it
2020-04-07T13:30:10Z White_Flame: ah
2020-04-07T13:30:33Z White_Flame: yeah, it's CC0
2020-04-07T13:30:33Z kpoeck: Make a request to add it to quicklisp
2020-04-07T13:31:09Z Shinmera: eta: like what? You can stuff your integers into a byte vector and hand them to babel to do the decoding.
2020-04-07T13:31:30Z eta: Shinmera, oh that'd probably work actually, thanks
2020-04-07T13:31:35Z eta: let's try
2020-04-07T13:32:24Z eta: hrm, it still passes through unpaired surrogates
2020-04-07T13:33:22Z eta: Shinmera, no it doesn't work, because your integers aren't octets
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2020-04-07T13:34:42Z Shinmera: 's what ldb is for
2020-04-07T13:41:26Z eta: what what?
2020-04-07T13:41:48Z eta: oh, that ldb
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2020-04-07T15:06:38Z jmercouris: is there a syntax for declaring a struct? e.g. not using (make-xyz ...) where xyz is the name of the struct?
2020-04-07T15:07:01Z beach: Declaring?
2020-04-07T15:07:08Z Inline: a constructor ?
2020-04-07T15:07:11Z jmercouris: yeah, like some sort of notation
2020-04-07T15:07:26Z beach: In a (declare ...) expression?
2020-04-07T15:07:32Z jmercouris: no, that's not what I mean
2020-04-07T15:07:56Z jmercouris: I don't want to have to do (list (make-xyz) (make-xyz))
2020-04-07T15:08:03Z jmercouris: just wondering if there is a more succinct way to express that
2020-04-07T15:08:12Z Inline: right so you want a constructor
2020-04-07T15:08:15Z Inline: heh
2020-04-07T15:08:25Z jmercouris: is make-xyz not a constructor?
2020-04-07T15:09:12Z Inline: might be
2020-04-07T15:09:45Z _death: jmercouris: what do you want to do?
2020-04-07T15:09:45Z beach: It is.
2020-04-07T15:09:47Z Inline: instantiator, instance constructor or initializer
2020-04-07T15:09:59Z Inline: but you want a second wrapper it seems
2020-04-07T15:10:00Z jmercouris: I want to set the value of a slot to a list of my struct
2020-04-07T15:10:18Z beach: A "list" of your struct?
2020-04-07T15:10:24Z jmercouris: but I just want the value to exist without it being funcalled into existence
2020-04-07T15:10:26Z beach: Like (list (make-xyz...))?
2020-04-07T15:10:29Z jmercouris: yes
2020-04-07T15:10:34Z jmercouris: as I also wrote above
2020-04-07T15:10:49Z beach: Ah, yes you did.
2020-04-07T15:10:50Z jmercouris: maybe I should just use a list of lists
2020-04-07T15:11:06Z beach: What do you have against (make-xyz)?
2020-04-07T15:11:25Z jmercouris: make-xyz has to exist before I can use it in a form
2020-04-07T15:11:29Z jmercouris: otherwise I will get a compile error
2020-04-07T15:11:32Z jmercouris: that's what I primarily have against it
2020-04-07T15:11:52Z jmercouris: and that will change the order in which thigns are loaded, which I don't like
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2020-04-07T15:12:04Z beach: It will exist if you define the structure first.
2020-04-07T15:12:14Z beach: Then use eval-when?
2020-04-07T15:12:26Z jmercouris: maybe, that could work
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2020-04-07T15:14:21Z _death: it only has to exist when the form is evaluated.. it may be declared inline later on so you get a warning
2020-04-07T15:15:15Z jmercouris: _death: what does the line: it may be
2020-04-07T15:15:15Z jmercouris:     declared inline later on so you get a warning mean?
2020-04-07T15:15:21Z jmercouris: can you please rephrase
2020-04-07T15:15:46Z jmercouris: I can't declare a struct twice with the same name, Lisp will complain
2020-04-07T15:16:36Z jmercouris: (declare (inline 'make-xyz))?
2020-04-07T15:17:05Z _death: it means the compiler may signal a warning if it already compiled references to a function that's now declaimed inline
2020-04-07T15:17:15Z _death: you don't need to define the structure twice
2020-04-07T15:17:15Z jmercouris: a way to suppress this warning?
2020-04-07T15:17:25Z _death: first, see if you get one
2020-04-07T15:17:28Z jmercouris: OK
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2020-04-07T15:20:45Z jmercouris: it did not complain
2020-04-07T15:20:46Z jmercouris: interesting
2020-04-07T15:21:04Z jmercouris: I set it as the initform, and it is not executed until the object is instantiated
2020-04-07T15:21:14Z jmercouris: so, does the compiler not go through and say "hey, this function does not exist!"?
2020-04-07T15:21:37Z jmercouris: I know in defuns it does not traverse inside and do that
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2020-04-07T15:22:14Z beach: What?
2020-04-07T15:22:14Z _death: the constructor defined by defstruct is like any other function
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2020-04-07T15:23:07Z jmercouris: I'm sorry, I'm a bit in my head and not explaining very whell
2020-04-07T15:23:10Z jmercouris: s/whell/well
2020-04-07T15:23:13Z jmercouris: Let me start over
2020-04-07T15:23:29Z jmercouris: I have a defclass with some slots, one of them has an initform with the value (list (make-xyz ...))
2020-04-07T15:23:39Z jmercouris: I'm asking, why is the compiler not complaining about make-xyz not existing?
2020-04-07T15:24:00Z _death: in Lisp, you can reference names to functions that are not yet defined.. as long as you don't try to evaluate the form, no error should occur
2020-04-07T15:24:12Z jmercouris: OK, so I had misunderstood
2020-04-07T15:24:17Z jmercouris: I assumed it only cared whether it was top level
2020-04-07T15:24:25Z jmercouris: ah, jeez, now I feel a bit silly
2020-04-07T15:24:33Z jmercouris: that makes a ton of sense, and explains a lot of things
2020-04-07T15:27:20Z beach: You might get a warning though, depending on the implementation.  But if your function is defined in the image that you are compiling from, the compiler will take that definition as proof that the function does exist.
2020-04-07T15:28:41Z _death: clhs with-compilation-unit
2020-04-07T15:28:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_comp.htm
2020-04-07T15:29:17Z beach: jmercouris: In your case, you will get a style warning from SBCL if you compile a file with your DEFCLASS form in it from a fresh Common Lisp image.
2020-04-07T15:29:41Z _death: there's also a notinline declaration.. it will force the compiler not to inline and likely not to give inline warnings ;)
2020-04-07T15:30:01Z jmercouris: I interestingly enough did not see a warning
2020-04-07T15:30:07Z jmercouris: no idea why, I thought I would
2020-04-07T15:30:21Z beach: jmercouris: "fresh Common Lisp image"?
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2020-04-07T15:30:30Z jmercouris: Yeah, i restarted slime and everything
2020-04-07T15:30:35Z jmercouris: and then only loaded my system
2020-04-07T15:30:58Z jmercouris: did a ,load-system
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2020-04-07T15:31:13Z beach: jmercouris: That may not compile it if it was already compiled.
2020-04-07T15:31:21Z jmercouris: oh I see
2020-04-07T15:31:27Z jmercouris: how can I force compilation?
2020-04-07T15:31:27Z beach: jmercouris: Try (compile-file "name-of-file.lisp")
2020-04-07T15:31:41Z Bike: there's asdf:compile-system with :force
2020-04-07T15:31:44Z jmercouris: but if I try to compile the file by itself it will not compile
2020-04-07T15:31:50Z jmercouris: it depends on a ton of other files
2020-04-07T15:32:05Z beach: Then what Bike said, or remove the existing FASLs.
2020-04-07T15:32:28Z jmercouris: I'll remove the FASLs later
2020-04-07T15:32:33Z jmercouris: it takes forever to build them all
2020-04-07T15:32:37Z jmercouris: I'll let you know when I do it
2020-04-07T15:34:02Z Bike: well you should only need to remove the fasl for the file with the defclass
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2020-04-07T15:38:02Z flip214: is Dr. Rosenberg here on IRC as well?
2020-04-07T15:39:15Z flip214: or is someone else maintaining cl-base64?
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2020-04-07T15:40:25Z flip214: hmmm, https://github.com/jdz/cl-base64 seems to be the newest version
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2020-04-07T16:00:16Z abbe: hi
2020-04-07T16:00:18Z abbe: could anyone please tell me what's wrong with this code: https://pastebin.com/HRbuBxsB ?
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2020-04-07T16:00:26Z abbe: or raw version: https://pastebin.com/raw/HRbuBxsB
2020-04-07T16:01:07Z beach: #. means evaluate it at read time.
2020-04-07T16:01:17Z beach: But the parameter exists only at run time.
2020-04-07T16:01:24Z abbe: hmm
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2020-04-07T16:01:30Z abbe: so it doesn't mean period character
2020-04-07T16:01:41Z beach: Oh, that would be #\.
2020-04-07T16:02:00Z abbe: oops, sorry, thanks!
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2020-04-07T16:02:05Z beach: Sure.
2020-04-07T16:02:57Z abbe: also is there some built-in function to find the last element in a sequence, or (aref name (- (length name) 1) ) is the best ?
2020-04-07T16:03:22Z Bike: that's the way to go, yeah. use elt instead of aref if you mean a general sequence.
2020-04-07T16:03:42Z Bike: (i.e., a sequence that can be either a vector or a list or some implementation-defined gizmo.)
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2020-04-07T16:03:51Z beach: For a vector, yes, except that (- <stuff> 1) is better written as (1- <stuff>)
2020-04-07T16:03:54Z jackdaniel: abbe: if you can afford using alexandria (which is a very popular utility library), you may use (alexandria:last-elt sequence)
2020-04-07T16:04:18Z jackdaniel: (or write it yourself / copy it)
2020-04-07T16:04:20Z abbe: oh, okay, probably not worth including a single function
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2020-04-07T16:04:50Z abbe: thanks! will go with elt
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2020-04-07T16:20:04Z _death: you may also want to check that the string is nonempty
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2020-04-07T16:46:38Z jdz: flip214: I'm not exactly maintaining cl-base64, just fixed/implemented some things.
2020-04-07T16:46:56Z jdz: Sent an email to Kevin, but the email probably got lost somewhere.
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2020-04-07T16:51:32Z jmercouris: is there a reverse to symbol-function?
2020-04-07T16:52:13Z Bike: given a function, return its name?
2020-04-07T16:52:18Z jmercouris: yes
2020-04-07T16:52:33Z Bike: clhs function-lambda-expression
2020-04-07T16:52:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm
2020-04-07T16:52:36Z Bike: often doesn't work, though
2020-04-07T16:52:44Z jmercouris: I can imagine there are many cases
2020-04-07T16:53:15Z jmercouris: OK, fair enough, I will have to rethink it should I want the name
2020-04-07T16:53:16Z Bike: as it says, it's for debugging only
2020-04-07T16:53:21Z jmercouris: Yeah
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2020-04-07T17:14:17Z jcowan: beach: what is so great about 1-?  It saves one space character and should produce exactly the same result when compiled, I would hope.
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2020-04-07T17:17:23Z jackdaniel: a stylistic rule is to use the most specific operator when applicable
2020-04-07T17:18:03Z jackdaniel: IMO it is easier for human brain (common lisp programmer will scan 1- like other known operators, while for (- …) it will need to parse also the argument in question
2020-04-07T17:18:57Z jcowan: Well, for me (1- x) looks too infix, as if it were (- 1 x)
2020-04-07T17:18:58Z Bike: i always see (1- x) as (- 1 x), very sad
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2020-04-07T17:19:09Z _death: practice more lisp :)
2020-04-07T17:19:17Z jcowan: 2MWBAST
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2020-04-07T17:20:56Z _death: or defun +-1 ...
2020-04-07T17:21:55Z _death: and this is not so far from (+ -1 ...)
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2020-04-07T17:24:58Z jcowan: _death: That's a potential number and so unavailable
2020-04-07T17:25:19Z _death: jcowan: is it?
2020-04-07T17:25:56Z jcowan: I think so.  It begins with a sign, doesn't end with a sign, and contains a digit.
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2020-04-07T17:26:14Z jcowan: clhs 2.3.1.1
2020-04-07T17:26:14Z specbot: Potential Numbers as Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_caa.htm
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2020-04-07T17:27:04Z jcowan: sbcl treats it as a symbol and so does clisp; I haven't tried any others
2020-04-07T17:28:05Z Bike: eclector also treats it as a symbol.
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2020-04-07T17:28:59Z jcowan: Huh, and here I thought eclector would be quite clear about potential numbers, at least in strict mode.
2020-04-07T17:29:48Z Bike: i'm not sure i quite understand how this works. does an implementation have to signal an error here or is treating it as a symbol okay?
2020-04-07T17:30:42Z _death: I see, but that a conforming implementation may treat it differently does not prohibits its use
2020-04-07T17:30:48Z _death: *prohibit
2020-04-07T17:31:00Z jcowan: They are reserved tokens like a:::b
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2020-04-07T17:31:25Z jcowan: I would signal a condition and allow restarting with a replacement value
2020-04-07T17:31:37Z jcowan: that way eclector-using systems can do what they want
2020-04-07T17:32:19Z Bike: i see, based on 2.3.5 the consequences are unspecified. i think.
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2020-04-07T17:34:09Z jcowan: However, an implementation that defines some kind of potential number needs to be told about it, not just to have it stuffed under the rug as just another symbol.
2020-04-07T17:34:44Z jcowan: so a general-purpose reader should not silently treat it as a symbol.
2020-04-07T17:34:50Z jackdaniel: it is nice when unspecified behavior is signalled with all (if feasible) sensible behaviors proposed in form of restarts
2020-04-07T17:35:04Z jackdaniel: s/in form/in a form/
2020-04-07T17:35:37Z Bike: yes, i just wanted to be clear it was okay at all
2020-04-07T17:35:38Z jcowan nods
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2020-04-07T17:38:26Z jcowan: a:::b is technically not a reserved token, but the consequences are likewise unspecified
2020-04-07T17:38:42Z beach: jcowan: It's a very general rule in programming, namely, use the most specific construct that will accomplish the task.  By doing it this way, you allow for the person reading your code to understand the intention much earlier.  Of course (1- x) and (- x 1) is not much different, but if x spans several lines, it is.
2020-04-07T17:39:05Z beach: ... er, what jackdaniel said.  Sorry
2020-04-07T17:39:35Z jcowan: Fair point in general, although any editor with the brains to do paren matching will make that easy
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2020-04-07T17:40:48Z jcowan: Also, compactness brings obscurity: cdaddr is probably best expanded to (cdr (car (cddr ...
2020-04-07T17:41:03Z _death: potential numbers seem theoretical to me at this point, but good to know
2020-04-07T17:41:04Z jcowan: or use some better tools
2020-04-07T17:41:29Z beach: jcowan: It is not about compactness.  That's one aspect, but not all of it.
2020-04-07T17:41:42Z beach: Certainly not the most important one.
2020-04-07T17:44:44Z jcowan: IIUC then it is an argument against sequence fns when you don't actually need the polymorphism of the arguments?
2020-04-07T17:47:38Z beach: Any rule can be abused if you put your mind to it.
2020-04-07T17:48:54Z beach: But yes, the sequence functions are best used when the exact representation of the sequence is not known.
2020-04-07T17:49:43Z jackdaniel misses a loop operator for iterating over an arbitrary sequence
2020-04-07T17:50:14Z beach: Anyway, I'm off to spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
2020-04-07T17:50:32Z jcowan: jackdaniel: Extensible loop, is it?
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2020-04-07T17:52:10Z jackdaniel: in practice most (if not all) loop macros in today cl implementations *are* extensible, but these mechanisms are not documented nor compatible, so they are not usually used
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2020-04-07T17:52:25Z jackdaniel: not to mention that these loop implementations usually predate clos
2020-04-07T17:52:40Z jackdaniel: so extensibility goes with some obscure operators in system internals
2020-04-07T17:52:49Z jackdaniel: s/system/implementation/
2020-04-07T17:54:26Z jcowan: yeag
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2020-04-07T17:54:33Z jcowan: er, yeah and yuck
2020-04-07T17:55:17Z Bike: the sequence extension includes a general sequence iteration path, which is nice
2020-04-07T17:55:23Z Bike: you could also put one in using an index and elt, of course
2020-04-07T17:56:01Z Bike: clasp's loop happens to have enough in common with sbcl's that i could cargo-cult the code over no problem, which is good, because i absolutely do not understand the loop code
2020-04-07T17:56:52Z jcowan: SRFI 42, which is not a Scheme standard, provides iteration over lists, simple vectors, strings, integer ranges, real ranges, character ranges, and streams, and adding your own is easy.  There is also a polymorphic iterator that looks at the type it is interating over, and that's extensible too.
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2020-04-07T17:57:23Z Bike: yeah, the extension defines a thing for efficient iteration over whatever you define
2020-04-07T17:57:36Z Bike: i wrote a path for iterate (which i don't usually use) to see if i could, and it turned out i could but only inefficiently since iterate doesn't allow outer multiple-value-bind bindings for reasons i'm not clear on
2020-04-07T17:58:40Z jcowan: multiple values are always a bugbear in Lisp, because people forget to allow for them.
2020-04-07T17:58:52Z Bike: well, i mean, iterate explicitly doesn't allow them
2020-04-07T17:59:00Z jcowan: (Continuations are an even worse bugbear in Scheme)
2020-04-07T17:59:03Z Bike: lemme look it up again
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2020-04-07T17:59:09Z Bike: something something delimited continuations
2020-04-07T17:59:54Z jcowan: I meant undelimited continuations, which is what Scheme captures by default
2020-04-07T18:00:06Z jcowan: though delim conts are a common extension
2020-04-07T18:00:11Z _death: jcowan: cl-su-ai has an example of a (perhaps imaginary?) "potential number" abuse.. Guy Steele defines a data type called a "mote"
2020-04-07T18:00:13Z Bike: yeah i'm just thinking of the "actually undelimited continuations are bad" articles i've read
2020-04-07T18:00:36Z jcowan: Well, they never return so they are not composable
2020-04-07T18:00:57Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Destructuring.html#Destructuring here it was. "There are subtle interactions between variable declarations and evaluation order that make the correct implementation of multiple-value destructuring in a with somewhat tricky. "
2020-04-07T18:01:16Z Bike: i don't know what these interactions are
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2020-04-07T18:02:08Z jcowan: Unrelated question: does anyone have use cases for m-v-call with more than one producer function?  It's come up for me once or twice years ago, but I can't remember quite why any motr
2020-04-07T18:02:52Z Bike: producer function? You mean, argument form?
2020-04-07T18:03:53Z _death: jcowan: I had one.. at the time I defined (defmacro values-concat (&body forms) `(multiple-value-call #'values ,@forms)) for it
2020-04-07T18:04:27Z jcowan: s/function/form
2020-04-07T18:04:38Z jcowan: the first argument is a consumer and the rest are producers of m-vs
2020-04-07T18:04:43Z Bike: sure, right.
2020-04-07T18:04:56Z jcowan: _death: Do you remember what you used it for, though?
2020-04-07T18:06:50Z _death: jcowan: the form using it is (values-concat bloom (encode-bits-internal bloom)) .. encode-bits returns two values
2020-04-07T18:06:52Z Bike: let's do a quick grep... opticl/shapes.lisp... oh, alexandria uses it for curry
2020-04-07T18:07:18Z jcowan: I'll look at alexandria
2020-04-07T18:07:25Z Bike: only in the case of curry that can't be compiler macroed away, though. check functions.lisp
2020-04-07T18:08:20Z Bike: basically it does it instead of the obvious (apply f (append ...))
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2020-04-07T18:09:23Z jcowan: I don't think a cons-free implementation of mv-call is possible; it has to be primitive
2020-04-07T18:09:46Z jcowan: Has anyone looked into a minimal basis set for special forms?  Clearly the standard set is not minimal
2020-04-07T18:10:54Z Bike: people ask occasionally, but i don't know if the question is that interesting. there's that one paper on implementing them in terms of each other...
2020-04-07T18:11:56Z _death: jcowan: I also have an example from an older (circa 2008?) proprietary code base
2020-04-07T18:12:09Z Bike: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html that paper, if you haven't seen it
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2020-04-07T18:14:56Z jcowan: I think I read the HB long ago; I went through most of his
2020-04-07T18:17:05Z Bike: i like the last one in there about macrotizing FUNCTION. a bit more support and maybe you wouldn't need any special operators at all, just macroexpand (lambda lambda-list . body) into `(make-closure ',analyzed-lambda-list ',analyzed-body)
2020-04-07T18:17:16Z Bike: quote as a macro was done by oleg, i think
2020-04-07T18:17:58Z jcowan: the first one seems bogus, emulating if with get, because get cannot be implemented without if.
2020-04-07T18:18:09Z Bike: eh? who says?
2020-04-07T18:18:33Z Bike: you can do it with aref instead of you'd prefer
2020-04-07T18:19:30Z Bike: i think that's the trick, really. there's lots of stuff in the language you can't do with just the special operators anyway. the special operators aren't a minimal operator set, they're just operators that the compiler is allowed to treat more mysteriously than it can functions or macros
2020-04-07T18:19:55Z jcowan scratches head
2020-04-07T18:20:07Z jcowan: how with aref?
2020-04-07T18:20:34Z _death: I guess it uses GET to give clue.. if boolean was 0 or 1, AREF would do, but it's NIL and non-NIL
2020-04-07T18:20:46Z Bike: hmmm how'd it go again. that's one i remember from some usenet post
2020-04-07T18:21:00Z Bike: who was that colorful guy xach made an archive of posts of... naggum, right
2020-04-07T18:21:35Z _death: boolean could also be CAR/CDR
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2020-04-07T18:23:08Z Bike: oh, true that it's bogus in that it won't work if the condition evaluates to non-nil but non-T, though
2020-04-07T18:23:28Z _death: Bike: that's why it has not-not
2020-04-07T18:23:37Z Bike: ahh.
2020-04-07T18:24:31Z jcowan: The Scheme standard basis set at runtime is variable reference, implicit function call, literals (including quote), if, setq, lambda.  This is thought to be minimal, but I know of no proof.  Outside runtime are macrolet, defpackage, and include (as in C).
2020-04-07T18:24:47Z jcowan: and of course not depends on if
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2020-04-07T18:26:20Z Bike: well, if that's on the table, (defvar *aux* (vector nil (lambda (x y) (funcall x)) nil (lambda (x y) (funcall y))) (defmacro if (condition then &optional (else ''nil)) `(funcall (svref *aux* (length (string (not (not ,condition))))) ...))
2020-04-07T18:26:29Z Bike: genius, you will agree
2020-04-07T18:27:46Z _death: don't see any code-char there :/
2020-04-07T18:28:22Z jcowan: How do you implement length without if?
2020-04-07T18:28:40Z _death: string[-1] :)
2020-04-07T18:28:51Z Bike: hey, i'm writing the compiler, not the runtime
2020-04-07T18:29:18Z jcowan: Fair enough, but implementing `not` is still going to be circular.
2020-04-07T18:29:26Z Bike: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/quote-as-macro.txt here's the quote as macro i was thinking about
2020-04-07T18:29:38Z Bike: it was actually shivers, whoops
2020-04-07T18:30:01Z Bike: or no, different o-
2020-04-07T18:30:07Z Bike: bleh. so dumb today.
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2020-04-07T18:31:14Z Bike: i'm not sure why the vector? case is necessary, maybe scheme does vectors differently
2020-04-07T18:31:57Z Bike: in lisp this would remove any possibility of coalescing, but that's optional anyway
2020-04-07T18:32:10Z Bike: oh, well, you'd have to be careful about circular structures actually.
2020-04-07T18:32:52Z jcowan: vectors in Scheme are simple-vectors in CL
2020-04-07T18:32:59Z jcowan: strings are not vectors, therefore
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2020-04-07T18:35:13Z Bike: i mean, (eval #(...)) returns immediately, right? so you could just macroexpand (quote #(...)) to #(...)
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2020-04-07T18:38:07Z jcowan: Now, yes, but that was not true in 2001; (eval #(1 2 3)) was an error
2020-04-07T18:38:28Z Bike: er, why?
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2020-04-07T18:39:17Z jcowan: Hysterical raisins, I think.  Vectors weren't self-quoting in Maclisp either.
2020-04-07T18:39:27Z Bike: bizarre.
2020-04-07T18:39:29Z jcowan: Finally we moved to the same position as CL except for ()
2020-04-07T18:39:48Z jcowan: (eval ()) is still an error
2020-04-07T18:39:58Z Bike: that i can at least understand.
2020-04-07T18:40:02Z jcowan: it is assumed to be a malformed function call.
2020-04-07T18:40:11Z _death: in that same comment about the mote datatype, Steele remarks: "For example, I might extend my Common Lisp to evaluate a vector by evaluating its elements in parallel and returning the value of just one of them (implemented by choosing the value of whichever one finishes first)."
2020-04-07T18:40:45Z jcowan: he was much concerned with parallelism in those days: see the xapping example imn cltl
2020-04-07T18:41:20Z Bike: or fortress, but i guess that continues the "this might be a dumb way to denote a perfectly fine concept" concern
2020-04-07T18:41:37Z _death: yes (*Lisp...) .. but what Bike said re. fortress ;)
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2020-04-07T18:44:57Z pjb: (eval ()) #| --> nil |# no error.
2020-04-07T18:45:56Z pjb: jcowan: () is a symbol, which is declared as a constant variable, whose value is CL:NIL  when evaluating CL:NIL it's a symbol, which is declared as ac onstant variable, whose value is CL:NIL.  Therefore the result is CL:NIL!
2020-04-07T18:46:11Z pjb: Basic evaluation rules of CL…  Go read a tutorial!
2020-04-07T18:46:18Z jcowan: Yes, I know the paradoxes of nil, really
2020-04-07T18:46:48Z jcowan: Bike was looking at a macro written in Scheme and wondering about parts of it.
2020-04-07T18:47:43Z _death: the message is https://cl-su-ai.cddddr.org/msg02850.html btw.. more about portable code walkers
2020-04-07T18:48:03Z jmercouris: I don't like the cadadaadar notation
2020-04-07T18:48:13Z jmercouris: I forget the order and have to look it up, every time
2020-04-07T18:48:15Z eta: jmercouris: cadadar is amazing
2020-04-07T18:48:24Z Bike: well, good news, it's 2020 and we prefer defclass
2020-04-07T18:48:38Z eta: jmercouris: it just does it from left to right
2020-04-07T18:49:04Z eta: cadar = (car (cdr (car ...
2020-04-07T18:49:09Z jmercouris: yeah, I know
2020-04-07T18:49:16Z jcowan: When I wrote a Lisp interpreter long ago, the undefined-function-name logic checked to see if the name matched /c[ad]*r/ and emulated it on the spot
2020-04-07T18:49:17Z jmercouris: it doesn't mean I don't end up drawing little diagrams to figure out what it is doing
2020-04-07T18:49:19Z jmercouris: I can't do it in my head
2020-04-07T18:49:45Z Bike: in modern CL objects other than symbols and conses are self evaluating, so the kind of extension steele talks about there is not possible
2020-04-07T18:49:49Z Bike: that's good to know
2020-04-07T18:49:56Z jcowan: I can only in stereotyped ways, roughly /ca?d*r/
2020-04-07T18:50:17Z jcowan: Well, objects with printable representations anyway
2020-04-07T18:50:25Z Bike: no, all of them
2020-04-07T18:50:35Z Bike: "A form that is neither a symbol nor a cons is defined to be a self-evaluating object. Evaluating such an object yields the same object as a result. "
2020-04-07T18:50:58Z jmercouris: can an object return multiple values?
2020-04-07T18:51:02Z _death: Bike: but the potential number thing is still possible.. hardcoding IPs and magic numbers in code looks fun
2020-04-07T18:51:06Z jmercouris: a self-evaluation of an object
2020-04-07T18:51:11Z Bike: jmercouris: Nope
2020-04-07T18:51:24Z Bike: wouldn't be just the object, after all
2020-04-07T18:51:41Z Bike: as far as i know, printability has no impact on evaluability at all, which seems sensible to me
2020-04-07T18:51:44Z jmercouris: are you telling me that the definition of self-evaluation means only returning the identity?
2020-04-07T18:51:58Z Bike: sure. is that surprising?
2020-04-07T18:52:04Z jmercouris: sure it is
2020-04-07T18:52:17Z jmercouris: i just assumed self-evaluation meant that the object itself is a function which returns something
2020-04-07T18:52:20Z jmercouris: not necessarily itself
2020-04-07T18:52:28Z jmercouris: the fact that "fish" -> "fish" is not a given to me
2020-04-07T18:52:31Z Bike: That's an interesting assumption.
2020-04-07T18:52:44Z Bike: Sure, it's possible to imagine a world in which eval is a generic function and you can put methods on it, for example.
2020-04-07T18:53:21Z Bike: Was there some particular behavior or idea that made you consider this?
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2020-04-07T18:53:54Z jmercouris: no
2020-04-07T18:54:15Z jmercouris: the only idea that made me consider it is the idea that behind self-evaluation, must be evaluation
2020-04-07T18:54:24Z jmercouris: and evaluation makes no guarantees about what will be returned
2020-04-07T18:54:49Z alandipert: i understand lazy evaluation in other languages as something like Bike's idea of eval as generic,and conditional operators are specializations
2020-04-07T18:55:05Z Bike: well, i mean. eval is just a function. if eval had no behavior specified it wouldn't be a very easy to use function.
2020-04-07T18:55:10Z jmercouris: i understand lazy evaluation in other languages as stored sexp
2020-04-07T18:55:33Z jcowan: Bike: your quote says "A form" not "An object", so I think evaluating an object that is not a form is undefined behavior
2020-04-07T18:55:35Z alandipert: i think maybe our understanding is similar, to the extent that a function is a kind fo stored sexp
2020-04-07T18:55:41Z jcowan: e.g. (eval (lambda (x) (+ x 1)))
2020-04-07T18:55:54Z Bike: jcowan: there are no objects that are not forms.
2020-04-07T18:56:18Z Bike: (per glossary entry "form": "any object meant to be evaluated")
2020-04-07T18:56:34Z jmercouris: can a list of atoms be said to be an object?
2020-04-07T18:56:40Z Bike: lists are objects, yes.
2020-04-07T18:56:42Z jmercouris: is a list of atoms not a form?
2020-04-07T18:57:03Z jmercouris: yes
2020-04-07T18:57:17Z jmercouris: is there anything that is *not* evaluated?
2020-04-07T18:57:28Z Bike: sure, stuff you quote
2020-04-07T18:57:31Z jcowan: alas the definition of "evaluate" and "form" in the glossary are mutually recursive, but it definitely does not say that all objects are forms.
2020-04-07T18:58:03Z _death: with a suitable interpretation, you could say (1 2 3) is not a form
2020-04-07T18:58:07Z Bike: well, it's not a formal grammar or anything, i'm using some reading comprehension
2020-04-07T18:58:25Z Bike: by the way, the generic eval thing i heard of here: https://www.piumarta.com/software/maru/ never heard of it elsewhere
2020-04-07T18:58:28Z jmercouris: _death: bike would tell you that is an object
2020-04-07T18:58:36Z _death: jmercouris: it is
2020-04-07T18:58:48Z jmercouris: _death: could we say '(1 2 3) is a form?
2020-04-07T18:58:49Z _death: jmercouris: (defun objectp (x) t)
2020-04-07T18:59:05Z _death: jmercouris: yes..
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2020-04-07T18:59:25Z _death: jmercouris: the form (quote (1 2 3)) evaluates to (1 2 3)
2020-04-07T18:59:26Z jmercouris: so, all objects are forms, but not all forms are objects?
2020-04-07T18:59:39Z Bike: the issue where they changed the non-cons-symbol evaluation behavior mentions having to quote vectors
2020-04-07T18:59:57Z jmercouris: _death: I'm just trying to understand why you say (1 2 3) is not a form
2020-04-07T19:00:02Z jcowan: okay, you are right; the second definition of form is noncircular.
2020-04-07T19:00:19Z jcowan: But you'd be surprised how common circularity is in even professionally produced language dictionaries.
2020-04-07T19:00:32Z _death: jmercouris: the other way around.. all forms are objects, but not vice versa
2020-04-07T19:00:59Z Bike: i don't think i would be. CL is the language where prog2 returns the first value, after all
2020-04-07T19:01:58Z _death: jcowan: due to Agrippan trilemma
2020-04-07T19:02:25Z jmercouris: _death: so, you agree with jcowan then?
2020-04-07T19:02:34Z jcowan: jmercouris: No, a form is a symbol, compound form (non-empty list), or self-evaluating object (any object but a symbol or cons), so all forms are objects and vice versa
2020-04-07T19:02:53Z jmercouris: OK, you don't agree then
2020-04-07T19:03:03Z jmercouris: you guys are quite confusing sometimes :-D
2020-04-07T19:03:22Z jcowan: "Infinite are the arguments of mages."
2020-04-07T19:03:28Z jcowan: or
2020-04-07T19:03:38Z jcowan: "And I am right and you are right and everything is quite all right!"
2020-04-07T19:03:47Z _death: jmercouris: personally I don't mind calling (1 2 3) a form, unless the context requires the distinction
2020-04-07T19:04:14Z jmercouris: I usually refer to those things as forms
2020-04-07T19:04:21Z jmercouris: rather than objects, even though, yes, lists are objects
2020-04-07T19:04:55Z jcowan: It isn't a form in the first sense ("object meant to be evaluated") because it obviously isn't, but it is a form in the second sense.
2020-04-07T19:06:37Z jcowan: General dictionaries (not like the CL glossary) are constantly hovering between circularity and "word not in" (a word is used in a definition but not defined).  The two are incompatible in principle, but you want to minimize a weighted sum of the two
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2020-04-07T19:07:43Z jmercouris: i wonder if you could make a dictionary starting from a single definition from which all are built
2020-04-07T19:08:02Z jmercouris: i guess that's what they tried to do with those discs on the voyager
2020-04-07T19:08:05Z _death: jcowan: nowadays you could have an infinite online dictionary ;)
2020-04-07T19:08:10Z Bike: principia mathematica, provided you have godel yelling over your shoulder
2020-04-07T19:08:29Z jmercouris: what if you have godel yodeling over your shoulde?
2020-04-07T19:08:29Z jcowan: s/yelling/yodeling
2020-04-07T19:08:34Z jmercouris: ha!
2020-04-07T19:08:35Z jmercouris: beat you
2020-04-07T19:08:39Z Bike: or various efforts in formal theorem proving
2020-04-07T19:08:54Z jcowan: But I'm moving faster than you, so only according to your clock, not mine
2020-04-07T19:08:57Z Bike: take fifty thousand pages to show that in at least some cases, a circle has an inside and an outside
2020-04-07T19:09:15Z jcowan: So a point is not a circle of radius 0
2020-04-07T19:09:58Z _death: Hilbert said we should use chairs, tables, and beermugs anyway
2020-04-07T19:10:05Z Bike: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.374.4778&rep=rep1&type=pdf little old now, but
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2020-04-07T19:13:35Z jcowan: A point is also a beermug of radius 0.
2020-04-07T19:13:51Z jcowan: or no, that is a line I guess, I was thinking of beermats.
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2020-04-07T19:24:08Z _death: jcowan: (1 2 3) is not a form in the second sense either, is it?
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2020-04-07T19:47:33Z phoe: _death: all objects are forms, so (1 2 3) is a non-empty list
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2020-04-07T19:47:47Z phoe: even if it certainly isn't meant to be evaluated
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2020-04-07T19:49:38Z _death: phoe: where do you see that all objects are forms?
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2020-04-07T19:52:15Z phoe: 21:02 < jcowan> jmercouris: No, a form is a symbol, compound form (non-empty list), or self-evaluating object (any object but a symbol or cons), so all forms are objects and vice versa
2020-04-07T19:52:44Z phoe: oh wait...
2020-04-07T19:52:52Z _death: phoe: the premise is from the glossary, but not the conclusion
2020-04-07T19:53:09Z phoe: no, a compound form must be: "a non-empty list which is a form: a special form, a lambda form, a macro form, or a function form."
2020-04-07T19:53:21Z phoe: and (1 2 3) is neither
2020-04-07T19:53:24Z _death: right
2020-04-07T19:53:55Z phoe: so (1 2 3) is formless, as per ancient zen tradition
2020-04-07T19:54:01Z jcowan: okay, you are right, not all objects are forms
2020-04-07T19:54:13Z _death: phoe: WATER is a form, though
2020-04-07T19:54:27Z Bike: formless sounds more like heart sutra than zen to me
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2020-04-07T19:55:06Z jcowan: (+ formless 1) => gormless
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2020-04-07T19:56:05Z phoe: _death: yes
2020-04-07T19:56:13Z phoe: Bike: possible, yes
2020-04-07T19:56:19Z phoe: jcowan: wait, that's wrong endianness
2020-04-07T19:56:24Z phoe: (1+ formless) ;=> formlest
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2020-04-07T19:57:51Z _death: (lsc (char 1 0) 'formless) => ???
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2020-04-07T20:12:44Z jcowan: (+ "formless" #(1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0)) => "gormless"
2020-04-07T20:13:27Z phoe: _death: what's lsc?
2020-04-07T20:13:53Z _death: Load Symbol Character.. although it should really be LDC - LoaD Character and take string designators
2020-04-07T20:19:04Z _death: (actually it should be LDS, load string..)
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2020-04-07T21:18:47Z asarch: (+ "let's" "get" "a" "beer!")
2020-04-07T21:19:14Z eta: wait
2020-04-07T21:19:18Z eta: you can do that?
2020-04-07T21:19:28Z eta: oh stuff me I've been using concatenate 'string all this time
2020-04-07T21:19:50Z no-defun-allowed: You cannot.
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2020-04-07T21:27:49Z Shinmera: thank god that you cannot.
2020-04-07T21:28:55Z samlamamma: Shinmera:Cannot do what?
2020-04-07T21:29:10Z Bike: cannot (+ "hello " "world")
2020-04-07T21:29:15Z Shinmera: there's logs in the chat to read up on context.
2020-04-07T21:29:19Z Shinmera: *in the topic
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2020-04-07T21:30:55Z samlamamma: Everyone knows that (+ "hello " "world") equals (+ "world" "hello "), I see no issue with this
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2020-04-07T21:42:48Z samlamamma: Today I did not write a single line of code, but at least I discovered /r/lispmemes.
2020-04-07T21:47:01Z _death: if + is not necessarily associative, why be strict about commutativity? (= (+ (+ 0.1d0 0.2d0) 0.3d0) (+ 0.1d0 (+ 0.2d0 0.3d0))) ;)
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2020-04-07T22:06:43Z jcowan: That's the way IEEE floats work:  2-argument + is commutative, but 3-arg + is not associative
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2020-04-07T22:12:07Z jcowan: so we have established that (1 2 3) is not a form, and that (eval (1 2 3)) is undefined behavior, yes?
2020-04-07T22:12:27Z _death: and string concatenation is the other way around
2020-04-07T22:14:13Z jcowan: yes
2020-04-07T22:14:24Z jcowan: which is a VERY GOOD reason not to do it with + in any language
2020-04-07T22:14:32Z _death: jcowan: if you mean (cl:eval '(1 2 3)), I think so
2020-04-07T22:14:57Z _death: jcowan: I did not mean to seriously suggest it..
2020-04-07T22:15:11Z jcowan: yes
2020-04-07T22:16:36Z alandipert: jcowan i have seen and use the term 'datum' for things like (1 2 3)
2020-04-07T22:17:00Z jcowan: In Scheme, 'datum' means 'object with an external representation.
2020-04-07T22:17:31Z jcowan: so (1 2 3) is a datum but the result of (lambda (x) x) is not
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2020-04-07T22:19:22Z Bike: i don't think it's defined in CL but it's used synonymously with "object"
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2020-04-07T22:31:05Z jcowan: Object is defined as datum; datum is not defined
2020-04-07T22:31:16Z jcowan: clhs object
2020-04-07T22:31:16Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for object.
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2020-04-07T22:32:05Z pjb: jcowan: check the glossary!
2020-04-07T22:32:52Z Bike: i think there was a way to get the bot to look up glossary entries, but i don't remember it
2020-04-07T22:32:55Z jcowan: ~~ sigh ~~ That's where I got that from.
2020-04-07T22:32:55Z Bike: specbot: help
2020-04-07T22:32:55Z specbot: To use the specbot bot, say something like "database term", where database can be: clhs lp mop.
2020-04-07T22:33:02Z Bike: maybe not.
2020-04-07T22:33:09Z pjb: jcowan: the result of (lambda (x) x) is a datum.  It's an object.  It's a function.
2020-04-07T22:33:30Z jcowan: no datum entry; object entry defines it as "datum", and also gives a contextual definition of "a foo object"
2020-04-07T22:33:59Z pjb: jcowan: for NL definitions, check a NL dictionary!
2020-04-07T22:34:58Z jcowan: _object_ in NL means the same as in EN
2020-04-07T22:35:27Z jcowan: but pronounced "opyect", of course
2020-04-07T22:37:53Z Xach: http://l1sp.org/cl/glossary/object is one option
2020-04-07T22:38:09Z pjb: jcowan: NL = EN DUH!
2020-04-07T22:40:07Z pjb: = Natural Language
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2020-04-07T22:40:20Z jcowan: datum in NL means date in EN, and very unfortunately indeed Daten in DE means both dates and data (as pl. of datum)
2020-04-07T22:40:41Z jcowan: Yes, I know that's what you meant, just giving you a dose of your own quibbling
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2020-04-07T22:50:06Z samlamamma: jcowan:Feeling your pain re: datum meaning date
2020-04-07T22:51:09Z jcowan: a friend of mine from Texas but been working IT in Germany for decades tells his crew to say Datumswerte instead
2020-04-07T22:51:34Z jcowan: better than Datümer, as if -tum were long
2020-04-07T22:52:29Z _death: do they use ja-nein-wert for booleans?
2020-04-07T22:52:57Z kpoeck: wahr falsch
2020-04-07T22:53:52Z _death: kpoeck: ok.. that was Plankalkül terminology
2020-04-07T22:54:52Z kpoeck: that is even older than lisp, wow
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2020-04-07T22:58:02Z _death: https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/361454.361515
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2020-04-07T23:00:21Z jcowan: _death: Google Translate says Boolescher Wert, which I assume is pronounced "buhlscher"
2020-04-07T23:01:16Z _death: boo-leh-scher
2020-04-07T23:02:56Z Bike: this paper uses algol notation, which i don't understand, in order to explain the Plankalkül notation i also don't understand. pretty nice
2020-04-07T23:03:06Z Bike: apparently types were called "modes" at some point. fascinating stuff
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2020-04-07T23:04:58Z _death: jcowan: yes, youtube gives "bool'sche algebra"
2020-04-07T23:05:19Z jcowan: in Algol 60, yes
2020-04-07T23:05:29Z jcowan: it was the first language with countably infinitely many types
2020-04-07T23:05:35Z jcowan: s/60/68
2020-04-07T23:06:04Z jcowan: _death: but is it bohl- or buhl-?
2020-04-07T23:06:09Z Bike: apparently not, if Plankalkül had arrays of arrays of records
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2020-04-07T23:06:32Z jcowan: Point.  Also Cobol, now that I think of it
2020-04-07T23:07:21Z _death: jcowan: buhl- it seems
2020-04-07T23:07:48Z jcowan: so a perfect hybrid of English root pronounced Englishly and German affix pronounced Germanwise
2020-04-07T23:10:54Z aeth: Is there a CLobol Cobol-in-CL and if not, why did they miss the opportunity to use that name?
2020-04-07T23:12:09Z pjb: aeth: learn Cobol.  It looks like it has more employement opportunities than CL!
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2020-04-07T23:27:55Z aeth: If we're going to go down that route we might as well shut everything down except for ##javascript
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2020-04-07T23:52:29Z jcowan: I don't see any CL-to-JS that's even close to complete in "language features" as opposed to "library features"
2020-04-07T23:55:01Z aeth: You can't really have something that's both efficient and a conforming CL in JS because the languages are just too different.
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2020-04-07T23:55:51Z jcowan waves webscript in aeth's general direction
2020-04-07T23:56:35Z jcowan: s/script/asm
2020-04-07T23:56:40Z pjb: aeth: webassembly.
2020-04-07T23:56:58Z aeth: jcowan: I believe the issue is the garbage collector
2020-04-07T23:57:17Z aeth: the initial wasm was more aimed at C/C++
2020-04-07T23:58:01Z jasom: wasm is a no-go for so many reasons
2020-04-07T23:58:42Z jasom: the biggest one being that you can't just dynamically generate assembly and then call it (which most traditional lisps do)
2020-04-07T23:58:49Z Bike: i think t hey still haven't implemented exceptions and it looks like they've decided to go with C++ style ones, which I can tell you from experience are an enormous pain in the ass to reconcile with lisp nonlocal control flow.
2020-04-07T23:58:52Z jasom: clisp requires a C style call-stack, which wasm doesn't ahve
2020-04-07T23:59:33Z jasom: CliCC would work, but the last free one was kind of incomplete
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2020-04-08T00:12:31Z White_Flame: btw, are there any good JS-in-CL projects out there?
2020-04-08T00:15:26Z no-defun-allowed: JS implementation in Common Lisp?
2020-04-08T00:16:45Z White_Flame: right
2020-04-08T00:16:54Z White_Flame: or js-to-cl "transpiler" or whatever
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2020-04-08T00:17:49Z no-defun-allowed: All I know of is cl-javascript, which might be a bit dead, and doesn't run as fast as the JITting implementations.
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2020-04-08T00:44:09Z alandipert: Bike that HB paper you linked earlier is top notch
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2020-04-08T01:03:13Z Bike: yeah, it's neat, huh?
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2020-04-08T01:19:41Z White_Flame: is there a printer call or flag that will print NIL as ()?
2020-04-08T01:20:57Z Bike: : modifier to the A and S format directives
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2020-04-08T01:30:20Z matzy_: assuming someone here has used easy-routes before, i have an extremely dumb question
2020-04-08T01:30:20Z matzy_:  
2020-04-08T01:31:18Z matzy_: i can set up the acceptor just fine, and even give it a document root, but i can't figure out how to hit even the simplest route
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2020-04-08T01:34:41Z matzy_: here's an example of a super simple route i've been trying to write
2020-04-08T01:35:04Z matzy_: (easy-routes:defroute name ("/foo") (&get a) (format nil "Hey~@[ ~A~]!" a))
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2020-04-08T01:36:17Z matzy_: should be super simple, a GET route at localhost:4444 (port i set it to in the acceptor), 127.0.0.1:4444/foo?a=Bob
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2020-04-08T01:36:50Z matzy_: yet that gives me a 404 and i have no idea why
2020-04-08T01:37:15Z no-defun-allowed: Dumb guess: would it have to be easy-routes:&get
2020-04-08T01:37:40Z no-defun-allowed: I guess not, the documentation says that.
2020-04-08T01:38:08Z no-defun-allowed: And did you start Hunchentoot with an instance of easy-routes:routes-acceptor?
2020-04-08T01:38:15Z matzy_: yeah i copied the docs first example but tried to make it even simpler
2020-04-08T01:38:24Z matzy_: yup
2020-04-08T01:38:46Z matzy_: (defvar *my-acceptor* (make-instance 'easy-routes:easy-routes-acceptor :port 4444 :document-root #p"www/"))
2020-04-08T01:39:24Z matzy_: and then of course the hunchentoot:start function with *my-acceptor* passed in
2020-04-08T01:39:46Z matzy_: and hitting 127.0.0.1:4444 gives me the custom html page i made
2020-04-08T01:40:44Z matzy_: like i feel i'm just missing something here. i work with APIs written in (far less interesting) languages everyday
2020-04-08T01:42:40Z matzy_: should that :defroute code i posted above work with the URL i put?
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2020-04-08T02:01:56Z pjb: White_Flame: (loop for test in '( nil (f o o) ) collect (format nil "(~{~A~^ ~})" test)) #| --> ("()" "(f o o)") |#
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2020-04-08T03:12:59Z jasom: I guess matzy_ is gone, but that code worked for me
2020-04-08T03:13:42Z jasom: http://localhost:4444/foo?a=bar showed "Hey bar!"
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2020-04-08T04:06:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-08T06:25:11Z flip214: jdz: thanks, sent an email yesterday, too.... in the meantime I opened https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1825 to use your repo instead ;)
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2020-04-08T07:02:53Z jdz: flip214: Cool.  I have not run into the OOM issue, so I'm glad I've fixed it unknowingly.
2020-04-08T07:04:13Z jdz: The main issue I was fixing was out-of-bounds array access, which was not very nice since there were (safety 0) declarations.
2020-04-08T07:06:10Z flip214: jdz: it's fixed by throwing a type error ;)
2020-04-08T07:06:23Z flip214: saying "NIL is not a string"
2020-04-08T07:09:36Z jdz: Gotta stop those pesky NILs from spreading.
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2020-04-08T07:12:27Z flip214: didn't spend any time looking for the reason.... allocating 2GB for a NIL sounds interesting
2020-04-08T07:16:16Z flip214: hmmm, replicating the (declare (string input) (optimize ... (safety 0))) isn't enough, I get a type error
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2020-04-08T07:18:45Z aeth: (safety 0) is almost always a bad idea
2020-04-08T07:21:09Z flip214: aeth: that's why https://github.com/jdz/cl-base64/commit/f495809807a9311747c84fcb9520105ed663a971
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2020-04-08T07:21:29Z flip214: I'm just trying to reproduce with a minimal example
2020-04-08T07:23:52Z no-defun-allowed: Tell that to the jsown maintainer?
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2020-04-08T07:31:32Z aeth: to be fair, (safety 0) wouldn't be less safe than C if SBCL didn't also stop doing most static checking when (safety 0) not just runtime checking
2020-04-08T07:31:46Z adlai: lp mop
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2020-04-08T07:32:05Z adlai: lp anything
2020-04-08T07:32:41Z adlai: mop method-function
2020-04-08T07:32:41Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-function.html
2020-04-08T07:33:01Z aeth: Compare (safety 0) to (safety 1) here: (with-compilation-unit () (defun hi () "hi") (defun foo () (declare (optimize (safety 0))) (+ 0 (hi))))
2020-04-08T07:33:06Z adlai: who maintains specbot?
2020-04-08T07:33:34Z adlai: ... and what was 'lp' supposed to search
2020-04-08T07:33:36Z beach: aeth: The fact that something is no less safe than C is a very weak argument.
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2020-04-08T07:34:29Z beach: adlai: "launchpad" would be my guess.
2020-04-08T07:35:05Z aeth: beach: The C compiler will tell you it's bad, as will SBCL with (safety 1). Compiler, not runtime. Of course, this is not quite a good example because GENERIC-+ will still typecheck so it won't mess up at runtime. This is UB because it's a non-generic +: (with-compilation-unit () (defun hi () "hi") (defun foo () (declare (optimize (safety 0))) (+ 0 (the fixnum (hi)))))
2020-04-08T07:35:39Z aeth: THE, of course, is portably speaking dangerous, but only because it permits behavior like what's happening here with SBCL, but only when SBCL has (safety 0)
2020-04-08T07:36:18Z adlai: beach: thanks; so it's probably for a specific project? since specbot is in #sbcl too, there's even a usual suspect :)
2020-04-08T07:37:11Z aeth: My example is also bad in one other way... (+ 0 ...) won't mess things up, but any other number probably will
2020-04-08T07:37:40Z jdz: aeth: That's why I have (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'safety 1) in my ~/.sbclrc
2020-04-08T07:38:12Z aeth: to be fair, (safety 0) does have its use in removing bounds checks in arrays in a LOCALLY if you really know what you're doing...
2020-04-08T07:38:42Z aeth: Just never do it at the function level because then it won't check the inputs, e.g. you could pass in too many or too few arguments
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2020-04-08T07:38:56Z jdz: aeth: One does not need (safety 0) if the compiler can figure out the bounds checks don't have to be checked on every iteration.
2020-04-08T07:39:09Z aeth: if
2020-04-08T07:39:24Z aeth: There definitely are cases where you know it can't go out of bounds but SBCL does not (yet) know this
2020-04-08T07:39:49Z aeth: I rarely encounter these, and even then never really care about the check, though.
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2020-04-08T07:41:41Z aeth: I generally use fixed-size arrays when I want performance, though. Then there's no need to play any games around bounds checking.
2020-04-08T07:42:19Z beach: aeth: I don't think THE is worse than a type declaration.
2020-04-08T07:44:40Z aeth: Anyway for anyone following along later, my final, corrected version of messing up your SBCL with (safety 0) that will otherwise be caught at compile time is: (with-compilation-unit () (defun hi () "hi") (defun foo () (declare (optimize (safety 0))) (+ 2 (the fixnum (hi)))))
2020-04-08T07:45:28Z aeth: It probably won't get really nasty until you start SETFing the wrong things, though.
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2020-04-08T12:10:54Z flip214: when I try stepping via swank, the next output is a (continue) call in SWANK:SLDB-NEXT. I'd have expected to get the next form after the (BREAK)
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2020-04-08T12:16:14Z flip214: but the command going across the wire is   "000038(:emacs-rex (swank:sldb-next 0) "COMMON-LISP-USER" 3 69)", and frame 0 is the function frame that I'm trying to step through?!
2020-04-08T12:17:19Z flip214: hmmm, I'm landing in SLDB level 1 instead of staying on the first sldb level
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2020-04-08T12:39:02Z beach: flip214: I have never managed to get stepping to work to my satisfaction.  It is of course possible that I am doing something wrong.
2020-04-08T12:39:30Z beach: flip214: Can I assume that you are using level 3 of the DEBUG optimize quality?
2020-04-08T12:40:17Z jcowan: "Removing run-time checks in production is like having life jackets in port but removing them before going to sea in order to carry more cargo."
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2020-04-08T13:51:20Z jasom: jcowan: coincidentally, I just had a project that saved a large amount of money *because* assertions were disabled in production.
2020-04-08T13:52:02Z jcowan: How was that?
2020-04-08T13:54:49Z jasom: hardware docs said that both the "success" and "error" indicator bits wouldn't be set at the same time.  error-injection testing caught this happening in aging parts after about a year and a half of testing due to the assertion.  Analysis of behavior without the assert is that the driver will eventually reset the hardware and continue.  No patch needed specifically for this problem.
2020-04-08T13:55:18Z jasom: not saying that your previous statement was wrong, just laughing at the timing.
2020-04-08T13:59:28Z jcowan: Yes, but you were lucky: it could have been that the program went off the rails in the presence of the hardware problem
2020-04-08T14:00:01Z jcowan: In Multics, the first thing the system did after being restarted from a crash was to attempt to dump the virtual memory to disk for postmortem debugging.
2020-04-08T14:00:34Z jcowan: Now Multics VM was a tree of fixed-size segments rather than a flat space.
2020-04-08T14:00:39Z jcowan: s/disk/tape
2020-04-08T14:01:32Z jcowan: On one memorable and scary occasion at a customer site, attempting to reload the tape produced "HODIE NATUS EST RADICI FRATER" and halted, ignoring all further attempts to recover.
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2020-04-08T14:01:52Z jcowan: "Today is born to the root a brother".
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2020-04-08T14:02:14Z jcowan: On tracing, this error message happened in the bootstrap if the left and right pointers of the root segment weren't null (-1 on Multics).
2020-04-08T14:03:16Z jcowan: Further investigation showed that the disk controller had failed, writing out part of the root segment as all zeros, and there was no recovery from that.
2020-04-08T14:03:30Z jcowan: Except to wipe everything, reload the OS, and restore customer stuff from backup.
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2020-04-08T14:07:18Z adlai: clearly, although posessing a reasonable sense of humor, they dropped out before receiving a diploma
2020-04-08T14:07:41Z adlai: any wreathed scholar would've printed `semper ubi sub ubi'
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2020-04-08T14:14:16Z jcowan: I think Bernie Greenberg learned his Latin in choir
2020-04-08T14:14:37Z jasom:  Boatum est upsettum, magno cum grandine venti.
2020-04-08T14:14:45Z jcowan: more detailed version at https://multicians.org/hodie-natus-est.html but with more Multics-specific jargon
2020-04-08T14:15:03Z jcowan: Sign on a hitching post:  TOTI EMUL ESTO
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2020-04-08T14:27:29Z jmercouris: something like yasnippet exists for CL?
2020-04-08T14:27:34Z jmercouris: or will I have to write my own?
2020-04-08T14:27:51Z jmercouris: I'm not asking about snippets FOR CL
2020-04-08T14:27:57Z jmercouris: I'm asking about a snippet expander implementation in CL
2020-04-08T14:28:20Z beach: It is best if you tell us what kind of functionality you need.  That way, people who don't know about snippets can help.
2020-04-08T14:28:45Z beach: jmercouris: Also, whether an expression is a form or not is not intrinsic to the expression.  It has to do with its intended use.
2020-04-08T14:29:24Z beach: jmercouris: For example, (- (length list)) is probably a form if found at the top-level.
2020-04-08T14:29:28Z jmercouris: the functionality I need is the following, a program that can parse some form. The form is a form with some simple logic, some pre-filled text,  and some spots that the user can fill int
2020-04-08T14:29:36Z jmercouris: for example (defclass ${1:name} (${2:inherits})
2020-04-08T14:29:44Z beach: jmercouris: But in (let ((- (length list))) ...) it is very likely NOT a form.
2020-04-08T14:29:48Z jmercouris: the user will be prompted for a name, and inherits, and that value will be filled into a string
2020-04-08T14:30:14Z jmercouris: If I decide to roll my own snippets, which I probably will have to, syntax suggestions?
2020-04-08T14:30:33Z jmercouris: so, if the user supplied name = goldfish, and inherits = salmon
2020-04-08T14:30:46Z jmercouris: then (defclass goldfish (salmon) would be the output from the above snippet
2020-04-08T14:30:57Z jcowan: No?  It looks like a form to me, whose value will be locally bound to -.
2020-04-08T14:31:31Z jmercouris: beach: let's start with a most basic question, what *is* a form?
2020-04-08T14:31:32Z beach: jcowan: (length list) is a form, but not (- (length list)).
2020-04-08T14:31:51Z beach: jmercouris: It is an expression that is intended for evaluation.
2020-04-08T14:31:52Z jcowan: oops, sorry for the noise
2020-04-08T14:32:01Z jcowan: O NOES, forms again
2020-04-08T14:32:07Z beach: jmercouris: So it depends on the intention of the person who wrote it.
2020-04-08T14:32:28Z beach: jcowan: I was asleep and noticed that the discussion was all wrong.
2020-04-08T14:32:46Z beach: jmercouris: Therefore it is not an intrinsic quality of an expression whether it is a form or not.
2020-04-08T14:33:14Z beach: jmercouris: Even (1 2 3) might be a form.  It fails to evaluate, but perhaps the intention was to test the error that is signaled.
2020-04-08T14:33:29Z jmercouris: when do you write code with the intent of it not being evaluated?
2020-04-08T14:33:45Z jmercouris: when do you write an expression that will not be evaluated?
2020-04-08T14:34:04Z beach: jmercouris: In (let ((x 10) (y 20)) ...) (x 10) (y 20) are expressions but they are not intended to be evaluated.
2020-04-08T14:34:07Z jcowan: As a silly way of signaling a particular condition
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2020-04-08T14:34:16Z beach: jmercouris: So is ((x 10) (y 20)).
2020-04-08T14:34:29Z jmercouris: oh I see
2020-04-08T14:34:31Z beach: jmercouris: So is LET
2020-04-08T14:34:34Z jmercouris: because the let macro is just using them as data
2020-04-08T14:34:42Z jcowan: I have written things like (/ 1 0) to generate an ad hoc exception
2020-04-08T14:34:47Z jmercouris: to say yes, we want to lexically bind x to 10 or whatever
2020-04-08T14:34:52Z beach: Sort of, except that LET is a special operator, not a macro.
2020-04-08T14:35:01Z jmercouris: OK, but we pretend its a macro for this discussion
2020-04-08T14:35:15Z jcowan: beach: Did you see the discussion of the minimal basis for CL syntax?
2020-04-08T14:35:25Z jmercouris: the one we had some years ago?
2020-04-08T14:35:29Z jmercouris: or a more recent one?
2020-04-08T14:35:49Z beach: jcowan: If I did, I did not pay any attention to it.
2020-04-08T14:36:00Z jcowan: Yesterday
2020-04-08T14:36:01Z jmercouris: you definitely paid attention to it
2020-04-08T14:36:07Z jmercouris: oh, different conversation
2020-04-08T14:36:08Z jmercouris: nevermind
2020-04-08T14:36:09Z beach: jmercouris: Why do you care whether it is a macro or a special operator.
2020-04-08T14:36:15Z jmercouris: i don't care really
2020-04-08T14:36:27Z jmercouris: i was just glossing over the detail
2020-04-08T14:36:33Z jmercouris: saying, it doesn't matter
2020-04-08T14:36:35Z jmercouris: I get your point
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2020-04-08T14:36:42Z beach: My point is that whether an expression is a form or not is not intrinsic to the expression.
2020-04-08T14:36:46Z jmercouris: yes, I get it
2020-04-08T14:36:57Z jmercouris: it is intrinsic to whether it is intended to be evaluated
2020-04-08T14:37:01Z jmercouris: or if it is just data
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2020-04-08T14:37:12Z beach: But you can't know that by just looking at it.
2020-04-08T14:37:25Z jcowan: in any case, any special form can be implemented as a macro, hence the relevance of the minimal basis set
2020-04-08T14:37:46Z jcowan: most of the talk was how to implement IF (other than with COND, obvs)
2020-04-08T14:37:49Z jmercouris: more stuff to think about while I go on my bike ride
2020-04-08T14:37:58Z jmercouris: anyways, I'll be back later, syntax suggestions welcome!
2020-04-08T14:38:00Z jmercouris: for snippets
2020-04-08T14:38:10Z beach: jmercouris: Even in (let ((- (length list))) ...) you don't know whether (- (length list)) is a form or not, because you don't know whether the entire expression is.
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2020-04-08T14:39:40Z splittist: jmercouris: you could do a survey of syntaxes; you could let the user choose; is the prompting going to be parameterised; will you have built-in validation, and, if so, how will that be signalled? Happy pedaling.
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2020-04-08T14:40:12Z flip214: beach: my ~/.sbclrc has (safety 3) (debug 3) as default settings, yes. Thanks for the notice about stepping not working for you, too!
2020-04-08T14:40:34Z beach: Sure.
2020-04-08T14:41:37Z flip214: I was wondering whether my nvim/vlime setup was broken in that regard.
2020-04-08T14:42:01Z flip214: jdz: want to vote on https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1825 ?  ;)
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2020-04-08T15:20:23Z adlai: jcowan, esto perpetuum hippopotamo, n'est-cepas?
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2020-04-08T15:22:33Z jcowan: adlai: Seems like good advice, assuming hippopotamo is ablative
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2020-04-08T15:23:28Z jcowan: hippos can be nasty and staying away is safest
2020-04-08T15:24:08Z adlai: regrettably, my keyboard lacks the ability to disambiguate cases that were spelled identically in the variant of latin that I studied a decade ago.
2020-04-08T15:24:37Z jmercouris: splittist: what is parameterised prompting? I am thinking no validation, it is just for simple form input
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2020-04-08T15:25:27Z adlai: jcowan: wrt #'if, clearly as a funcall to symbol-plist of one and zero; as a macro, however you like.
2020-04-08T15:26:09Z adlai: minority report votes for symbol-plists of t and nil, and they are wrong, due to being in the minority!
2020-04-08T15:26:41Z jcowan: Thing is, you can't search a plist without an existing conditional operator
2020-04-08T15:27:15Z jcowan: That's like saying Smalltalk doesn't need if because true and false belong to different classes, which they do, but class dispatch obviously needs a conditional under the covers.
2020-04-08T15:27:46Z adlai: jcowan, sure, that's why you have an invariant, wherein the relevant function is located at a specific offset within the plist
2020-04-08T15:28:33Z adlai: iirc, cl-user mucking with cl plists leads to jokes plagiarised from aristophanes
2020-04-08T15:28:33Z jcowan: You can do a lot conditional-free, especially if you are willing to repeat work, but not everything.
2020-04-08T15:28:39Z jcowan: Ingenious; I have to think about that one
2020-04-08T15:29:16Z jcowan: You'd have to be sure that (setf get) maintains the invariant
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2020-04-08T15:30:28Z adlai: verify in the macro, abuse via manual macroexpansion
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2020-04-08T15:39:51Z Bike: you shouldn't need a conditional for dispatch though. you can use something like vtables, can't you?
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2020-04-08T15:40:15Z Bike: i guess in a roundabout way that's the same as keeping the function in a dedicated spot in the symbol plist
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2020-04-08T15:46:57Z Bike: and extending on that, you could say that the lisp runtime has a %COND slot in every object; in the %COND of NIL is (lambda (x y) y), and for every other object it's (lambda (x y) x); and then (if x y z) is (funcall (funcall (%cond x) (lambda () y) (lambda () z))) no problem.
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2020-04-08T15:47:11Z _death: (defconstant true 'car) (defconstant false 'cdr) (defun if (test yes no) (funcall test (cons yes no))) ;; add funcalls for flavor
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2020-04-08T15:47:56Z Bike: as such, in the next lisp revision IF should not be a special operator, thank you for coming to my TED talk
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2020-04-08T15:49:06Z splittist: jmercouris: something like (prompt-for thing prompter), so people can specialize prompt-for for different prompting mechanisms (react, repl, terminal, chatbot...)
2020-04-08T15:49:12Z adlai: _death: why not (function car), etc?
2020-04-08T15:49:23Z Bike: in case you want to redefine car and cdr later, obviously
2020-04-08T15:49:39Z jmercouris: splittist: yes, there will be that
2020-04-08T15:49:44Z _death: adlai: because it's not guaranteed to be constant
2020-04-08T15:49:57Z adlai: sure, although i'd hope that (function car) is short enough to be #'eq to (function car)
2020-04-08T15:50:02Z Bike: oh, yeah, if the implementation evaluates it at compile time it can't be dumped
2020-04-08T15:50:04Z adlai: maybe i am just an inveterate optimist.
2020-04-08T15:50:17Z jmercouris: I'm an invertebrate optimist
2020-04-08T15:50:37Z jmercouris: you may not know this, but I am a trilobyte
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2020-04-08T15:50:51Z jmercouris: s/trilobyte/trilobite
2020-04-08T15:52:44Z _death: currently we're troglodytes
2020-04-08T15:55:40Z jmercouris: lol
2020-04-08T15:56:35Z jmercouris: anyone have any document classification in CL?
2020-04-08T15:56:40Z jmercouris: anyone done it?
2020-04-08T15:57:11Z jmercouris: I see some old articles on it
2020-04-08T15:57:13Z jmercouris: but no source...
2020-04-08T15:57:27Z splittist: jmercouris:  what is document classification?
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2020-04-08T15:58:40Z jmercouris: document classification is concerned with semantic understanding of documents and plotting them in a 2d vector space
2020-04-08T15:58:48Z jmercouris: usually with the idea to group related documents, or determine what they are about
2020-04-08T15:59:35Z jmercouris: what i'm trying to do here is group tabs by content, for example
2020-04-08T15:59:40Z jmercouris: automatically
2020-04-08T16:00:16Z jmercouris: a common/basic example is TF/IDF
2020-04-08T16:00:22Z jmercouris: term frequency, inverse document frequency
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2020-04-08T16:00:39Z jmercouris: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tf%E2%80%93idf
2020-04-08T16:00:52Z jmercouris: you can use that to figure out what terms are relevant in the document, and cluster that in a space, for example
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2020-04-08T16:01:07Z jmercouris: there are a variety of clustering techniques as well...
2020-04-08T16:01:09Z splittist: apart from semi-randomly shuffling my tabs, what other uses could there be?
2020-04-08T16:01:22Z jmercouris: it's not semi-random
2020-04-08T16:01:35Z pjb: jmercouris: cf cliki!
2020-04-08T16:01:38Z jmercouris: let's say you are cooking right
2020-04-08T16:01:44Z jmercouris: and you have 50 tabs open about foods
2020-04-08T16:01:56Z jmercouris: you want to find all your tabs that are related to vegan food or something
2020-04-08T16:02:00Z pjb: jmercouris: https://cliki.net/site/search?query=clarification
2020-04-08T16:02:24Z jmercouris: pjb: ?
2020-04-08T16:02:31Z jcowan: When people ask me if I use emacs or vi, I reply that I am an "ex" troglodyte (not to be confused with an ex-troglodyte)
2020-04-08T16:02:53Z _death: jmercouris: check out montezuma
2020-04-08T16:02:58Z dlowe: but ed is the standard editor
2020-04-08T16:03:00Z adlai: jmercouris, why must the output space be dodimensional?
2020-04-08T16:03:02Z jcowan: There are 5m troglodytes in China today, some with running water and even electricity
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2020-04-08T16:03:33Z pjb: There are also a few of them in Spain.
2020-04-08T16:03:42Z pjb: No need to go as far as China…
2020-04-08T16:04:03Z jmercouris: _death: I like!
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2020-04-08T16:04:15Z jmercouris: I'll make a protocol/interface for this, and first use montezuma
2020-04-08T16:04:20Z jmercouris: but I'll probably end up making my own
2020-04-08T16:04:29Z jmercouris: adlai: so that it can be clustered
2020-04-08T16:04:40Z adlai: k-means etc work in arbitrary dimensions
2020-04-08T16:04:55Z jmercouris: adlai: it doesn't have to be a 2d space, you're right
2020-04-08T16:05:06Z jmercouris: adlai: it must be at LEAST 2 dimensional though
2020-04-08T16:05:13Z adlai: clustering on a flat screen is mainly useful for people who like to criticise the output of an artificial neural network
2020-04-08T16:05:20Z jmercouris: lol
2020-04-08T16:05:24Z jmercouris: or when your data is sparse
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2020-04-08T16:05:26Z _death: here's an old tfidf from some years ago https://gist.github.com/death/84c57eb0811421c1c51bf63f2fd716fd
2020-04-08T16:05:33Z jmercouris: when you find yourself adding more and more dimensions, good luck getting good clusters
2020-04-08T16:05:41Z Bike: what i should have said yesterday was that special operators don't express anything about inter-operator dependence - which i don't think would be very useful anyway - but express what a code walker has to know
2020-04-08T16:05:49Z Bike: code walking is hard/impossible in lisp for other reasons, unfortunately
2020-04-08T16:06:25Z jmercouris: adlai: also k means requires you to know how many clusters there are
2020-04-08T16:06:55Z jmercouris: my favorite clustering is db scan
2020-04-08T16:07:25Z jmercouris: because I don't like to make ANY assumptions about the document space
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2020-04-08T16:07:40Z jmercouris: sure I'll make assumptions about the max distance between nodes etc...
2020-04-08T16:07:42Z _death: dbscan is nice, but slow
2020-04-08T16:07:43Z jmercouris: but even that can be self tuning
2020-04-08T16:07:45Z jasom: Hmm, it would probably be possible to make a working CL code-walker
2020-04-08T16:07:54Z adlai: jmercouris, my reason for skepticism about clustering within 2d spaces is that there are much stricter bounds on planar graph colorings
2020-04-08T16:08:21Z jasom: If you made canonical expansions of all macros and special-forms in the spec, kind of like fare-quasiquote does for the ` reader macro
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2020-04-08T16:08:33Z _death: jmercouris: dbscan requires a metric, so you're making assumptions
2020-04-08T16:08:41Z jmercouris: yeah I know
2020-04-08T16:08:44Z jmercouris: thats what I mentioned about above
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2020-04-08T16:08:58Z jmercouris: still, far better than assuming amount of clusters
2020-04-08T16:09:09Z jmercouris: unless we are making a program called strawberry or not strawberry
2020-04-08T16:09:13Z jmercouris: in which case sure, we can use k means lol
2020-04-08T16:09:51Z Bike: _death: things like sbcl's named-lambda screw it up. probably other stuff, i haven't tried writing a portable walker myself
2020-04-08T16:10:21Z jmercouris: adlai: understood
2020-04-08T16:10:37Z jmercouris: anyways, I'll try to utilize montezuma with some sort of interface first, that's a nice start
2020-04-08T16:11:17Z _death: Bike: yeah.. maybe a portable walker must be extensible
2020-04-08T16:13:28Z jcowan: dlowe: I am willing to trade a little standardosity for a little convenience.
2020-04-08T16:14:28Z jcowan: I do use ed occasionally to work around bugs in vim, like its inability to substitute a pattern with a replacement containing a newline (you get a NUL instead) or the way that vim farts on very large files.
2020-04-08T16:15:28Z jmercouris: emacs has a VLF
2020-04-08T16:15:38Z jmercouris: https://github.com/m00natic/vlfi
2020-04-08T16:16:38Z jasom: jcowan: vim totally lets you substitute a pattern with a replacement containing a newline?
2020-04-08T16:16:53Z jcowan: in ex mode?
2020-04-08T16:16:58Z jcowan: s/foo/bar\
2020-04-08T16:17:18Z jcowan: baz/ does not work, you end up with a line "opening bar^@baz closing"
2020-04-08T16:17:33Z jcowan: this is a very very longstanding bug
2020-04-08T16:18:12Z jcowan: At least vim 7.0 fixed the bug whereby undo in ex mode would rewind you to the last time you were in vi mode, which in my case is the beginning of editing!
2020-04-08T16:18:37Z beach: How is all this related to Common Lisp?
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2020-04-08T16:23:00Z edgar-rft: Everything is related to Common Lisp, but most of it is not conforming.
2020-04-08T16:23:05Z dlowe: ... when editing common lisp code
2020-04-08T16:27:04Z pjb: Well, I already have an ed(1) in CL.  Somebody could extend it to make it a vi(1), but indeed, it would require non-conforming libraries…
2020-04-08T16:27:34Z pjb: On the other hand, the problem mentionned above is in the regexp library, so this can be implemented and corrected conformingly.
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2020-04-08T16:59:11Z jasom: pjb: you could implement emacs in CL, and then just use evil-mode to get vim
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2020-04-08T17:03:37Z jcowan: pjb: pointer?
2020-04-08T17:13:01Z dlowe: jasom: someone tried this but was unable to get sufficient buy-in
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2020-04-08T17:16:32Z flip214: jcowan: is vim 7 still relevant? there's vim 8.2.0510, and neovim...
2020-04-08T17:16:56Z jcowan: vim 6 and before: bug.  Vim 7 and after: no bug
2020-04-08T17:17:35Z jcowan: I sent Bram Molenaar a Google peer award for releasig vim 7 while we were both working there
2020-04-08T17:18:15Z pjb: jcowan: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/common-lisp/ed
2020-04-08T17:18:40Z pjb: jcowan: unfortunately, I haven't completed my regexp library. You will have to hook it to cl-ppcre.
2020-04-08T17:19:08Z asarch: ed!
2020-04-08T17:20:03Z eta: is the standard text editor?
2020-04-08T17:20:05Z jcowan: LGTM.  I want to use it as a library: would you consider dual licensing under the LGPL?
2020-04-08T17:21:13Z pjb: No, I will stay with AGPL3 for the foreseable future.   You might get lucky, and find an old version licensed under LGPL, but I don't distribute it anymore.
2020-04-08T17:22:39Z asarch: sam!
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2020-04-08T17:25:27Z asarch: wily!
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2020-04-08T18:20:55Z splittist: bravo!
2020-04-08T18:21:42Z jcowan: I like sam, but I think its command mode could use a few improvements
2020-04-08T18:21:49Z jcowan: I've never used acme/wiley seriously
2020-04-08T18:23:57Z jcowan: https://github.com/deadpixi/sam/issues/96 is a list of proposed improvements
2020-04-08T18:24:11Z jcowan: I also have some ideas for making ex more like sam:
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2020-04-08T18:24:48Z jcowan: or rather for an upward compatible extension to ex
2020-04-08T18:24:49Z jcowan: https://github.com/johnwcowan/exx/blob/master/exx/exx-features.txt
2020-04-08T18:25:02Z jcowan: exx of course stands for "ex extended"
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2020-04-08T21:51:01Z Kabriel: I am confused why this (format t "~14,6,2,,,,'eE" -9.999999747378752d-5) => -10.000000e-05 instead of -1.000000e-04?
2020-04-08T21:51:34Z Kabriel: pjb tested this on a variety of lisps, and apparently only sbcl and abcl give the wrong answer.
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2020-04-09T00:15:25Z jcowan: Kabriel: Is it actually *wrong*?
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2020-04-09T00:25:54Z dlowe: yeah, it's non-conforming
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2020-04-09T01:29:44Z aeth: Maybe bring it up in #sbcl
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2020-04-09T02:07:58Z holycow: hi all.  i am trying to install weblocks-skeleton from here
2020-04-09T02:08:25Z holycow: why i run lake migrate . i get the following error: Symbol "SYSTEM-VERSION" not found in the ASDF/INTERFACE package
2020-04-09T02:08:42Z holycow: i suspect there is a conflict with asdf and roswell that i create at some point.
2020-04-09T02:09:29Z holycow: can anyone point to resources online that i can read about HOW roswell and asdf work / interact  with each other or the host environment?
2020-04-09T02:09:47Z holycow: i cannot find a 10 000 foot perspective on either system via google
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2020-04-09T02:50:06Z ahungry: Are you familiar with nodejs/npm at all? asdf (another system definition facility) is a way to define packages, similar to package.json in node land.  Quicklisp which you didn't mention is like npm - the tool to pull in remote dependencies for asdf to load.  Roswell is closest to nvm I think (node version manager) - it wraps up all the lisp stuff into a ~/.roswell directory
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2020-04-09T03:02:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-04-09T03:04:11Z alandipert: hi beach
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2020-04-09T03:28:35Z holycow: thanks ahungry
2020-04-09T03:36:58Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe offtopic, but what's the best practice if I want to store upwards of 10,000 binary files (addressed by hash of contents)? Filesystems usually don't perform as well as usual when you use directories with that many tiles.
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2020-04-09T03:40:27Z holycow: 10k files in a folder shoudln't be a problem for ext4
2020-04-09T03:40:47Z holycow: maybe millions of files and then you start to see performance degredation
2020-04-09T03:41:02Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
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2020-04-09T03:42:16Z holycow: oh, upwards of ...
2020-04-09T03:42:19Z holycow: sorry i misread
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2020-04-09T03:43:36Z no-defun-allowed: I'm thinking around 10^4 to 10^6 files.
2020-04-09T03:45:09Z holycow: well, i have run email servers with more files than that but they have all subdivided the attachments into subdirs
2020-04-09T03:45:21Z holycow: i don't know if i have ever had a single folder with that many files
2020-04-09T03:46:05Z holycow: i am just waisting your time, my apologies.  i don't have any useful information for you.  i just misread your original question and was curious.
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2020-04-09T03:46:47Z no-defun-allowed: You're not wasting my time; I don't even have useless information to work with.
2020-04-09T03:47:07Z no-defun-allowed: ...or can I manipulate binary data from CLSQL somehow?
2020-04-09T03:52:54Z holycow: well, you know, even the base linux system has thousands if not millions of files
2020-04-09T03:53:07Z buffergn0me: no-defun-allowed: You can organize the files into sub-directories named after one or more digits in the hash. Should be pretty uniform.
2020-04-09T03:53:11Z holycow: my home nas machines have hundreds of million
2020-04-09T03:53:27Z no-defun-allowed: buffergn0me: Sure.
2020-04-09T03:53:39Z holycow: none of them seem to suffer in any way because they are all in subdirs
2020-04-09T03:54:32Z holycow: i would say it does kind of depend on how big your files are and what kind of post processing you need to do.  large files will force you into the obvious answer, how many small files will give you some room to play with
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2020-04-09T05:40:06Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: while 2^20 files ain't that many, having them in a single directory is a bad idea - lookup performance and all that stuff.
2020-04-09T05:40:18Z no-defun-allowed: flip214: Yeah, that's my concern.
2020-04-09T05:40:39Z flip214: I'd suggest keeping 3 or 4 levels of 8-bit divisions, that should bring the last level down to a good number.
2020-04-09T05:40:47Z no-defun-allowed: (And, well, that SQL can be run over a network trivially, whereas a filesystem is a little less portable.)
2020-04-09T05:40:51Z flip214: which filesystem are you using?
2020-04-09T05:40:51Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
2020-04-09T05:41:35Z no-defun-allowed: btrfs, but I would expect a client to use ext4 if they use a Linux system.
2020-04-09T05:41:45Z holycow:  oooooohhhhh
2020-04-09T05:41:46Z holycow: dude
2020-04-09T05:41:57Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: btrfs should be fine (IMO)
2020-04-09T05:42:03Z holycow: did you read up on btrfs on forums?
2020-04-09T05:42:21Z holycow: let me find a lnk
2020-04-09T05:42:22Z flip214: which kernel version?
2020-04-09T05:42:24Z no-defun-allowed: I can't remember, I formatted /home about five years ago.
2020-04-09T05:42:30Z no-defun-allowed: No, it hasn't eaten my data.
2020-04-09T05:42:38Z holycow: oh it will
2020-04-09T05:43:09Z no-defun-allowed: And it hasn't for the last five years?
2020-04-09T05:44:50Z holycow: there is an arch page somewhere with red sections all over warning about bugs and features that don't work properly
2020-04-09T05:44:56Z no-defun-allowed: ...one of them. 5.3...ish?
2020-04-09T05:45:21Z holycow: just trying to find the link for you to read, i can't remember where i foudn it
2020-04-09T05:45:46Z no-defun-allowed: The btrfs status page says everything I do is stable.
2020-04-09T05:45:57Z holycow: zfs is stable
2020-04-09T05:46:08Z holycow: btrfs shouldn't even be considered a file system
2020-04-09T05:46:22Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: I guess something recent will be good enough. I've had a few problems in the 4.<low digit> aera, but none since then.
2020-04-09T05:47:04Z holycow: anyway my opinion is not important :) looking for something for you to review
2020-04-09T05:47:11Z no-defun-allowed: I do lament fallocate, but my experience with btrfs is that's a load of shite and it's been rock solid.
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2020-04-09T05:49:13Z andrzejku: hejo
2020-04-09T05:49:51Z no-defun-allowed: holycow: And I did read that page five years ago and did an analysis. Still sounds quite stable.
2020-04-09T05:49:59Z holycow: oh, aha!
2020-04-09T05:50:04Z holycow: okay then :)
2020-04-09T05:51:19Z no-defun-allowed: I don't use some of the advanced features like checkpointing or RAID; but is even more off topic.
2020-04-09T05:52:40Z holycow: i used to replicate datacenters geographically using zfs.  i can't go back to anything less and reading that btrfs arch writeup scared teh crap out of me.  i could never use anything like that.
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2020-04-09T05:56:40Z no-defun-allowed: Offsite backups are probably excessive for my /home filesystem.
2020-04-09T05:56:46Z holycow: looks like synology and suse use btrfs
2020-04-09T05:56:47Z holycow: huh
2020-04-09T05:57:18Z holycow: i could never ever use a file system where i've read users loowing entire datasets using simple file system management tools
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2020-04-09T05:58:43Z holycow: yeah, no, you are actually correct.  you have to match the solution to your needs and risk comfort level
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2020-04-09T06:28:56Z beach: Hello andrzejku.
2020-04-09T06:29:53Z beach: andrzejku: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
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2020-04-09T06:51:34Z flip214: COMPILE returns a second and third value for warnings and errors; can I get the conditions that are signalled directly? Something like *debugger-hook*?
2020-04-09T06:52:50Z flip214: ah, HANDLER-CASE does the trick
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2020-04-09T07:07:16Z andrzejku: beach, yes
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2020-04-09T07:18:06Z beach: andrzejku: Great!  What brings you to #lisp?
2020-04-09T07:21:27Z andrzejku: beach, emm good question, Lisp is in my learning plans
2020-04-09T07:21:39Z andrzejku: or lets say guile I wanted to join guile more
2020-04-09T07:21:57Z beach: Ouch.  This group is dedicated to Common Lisp.  Sorry!
2020-04-09T07:22:19Z andrzejku: yes, I know
2020-04-09T07:22:30Z andrzejku: had mistaken
2020-04-09T07:24:02Z beach: I think if you learn Common Lisp, you can apply that knowledge to Guile.
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2020-04-09T09:16:52Z phoe: the lisp dialects are similar in the beginning, though guile is a scheme and therefore much more functional-programming-oriented
2020-04-09T09:17:01Z phoe: whereas CL is multi-paradigm
2020-04-09T09:18:08Z phoe: once you know the basics of e.g. how S-expressions work, the evaluation model, lexical environments and lambdas, however, you'll be able to apply to any Lisp dialect with none or few modifications
2020-04-09T09:19:18Z beach: phoe: andrzejku left.
2020-04-09T09:21:21Z beach: phoe: Also, be careful with that kind of information.  As I recall, some of the first Scheme standards did not define its operators in terms of the result of READ, but instead as surface syntax, much like other languages.  So then (x . (y)) was not equal to (x y).
2020-04-09T09:22:13Z beach: Perhaps that makes Scheme different language altogether, and not a dialect of Lisp, which as we know, is not a well defined term.
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2020-04-09T09:27:31Z phoe: beach: you scared me for a second and I checked on all the scheme dialects I have installed on my machine whether defining stuff with cons notation was working
2020-04-09T09:29:17Z aeth: Scheme just has a lot of undefined behavior, like... the evaluation order. Put side effects in (+ a b c) using begin (their PROGN) and you don't know what order the printing will happen.
2020-04-09T09:30:04Z aeth: But the worst part is a lot of Schemes just return #<unspecified> or #<undefined> in such cases, e.g. (if #f 42)
2020-04-09T09:30:38Z aeth: It's IMO way more reliable that CL returns NIL with (if nil 42) even if that's still bad style.
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2020-04-09T09:31:36Z aeth: What I like about everything being an expression in CL is that you don't really get entirely useless things unless someone goes out of their way to return (values)
2020-04-09T09:33:01Z Shinmera: I've come to really, really appreciate the methodology of always returning /something/ even if an operation is for side effects.
2020-04-09T09:34:14Z phoe: aeth: and (values) naturally turn into NIL if someone tries to use them anywhere except for multiple-value-* calls
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2020-04-09T09:34:58Z aeth: just multiple-value-call or multiple-value-list iirc. Well, I mean, the latter gives you NIL, but you'd expect (NIL)
2020-04-09T09:35:01Z andrzejku: beach, thnks for advice
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2020-04-09T09:36:42Z aeth: For the most part, Scheme is basically just what you get if you wrap CL up in continuation passing style, though. This, of course, has quite a few implications.
2020-04-09T09:37:50Z beach: phoe: They may have changed it in later standards.
2020-04-09T09:37:58Z beach: andrzejku: Sure.
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2020-04-09T09:52:10Z andrzejku: I am quite impressed by https://github.com/atlas-engineer/next
2020-04-09T09:52:23Z andrzejku: very tiny Lisp browser ;D
2020-04-09T09:54:15Z beach: andrzejku: I believe that's the one written by jmercouris.
2020-04-09T09:54:48Z beach: andrzejku: And I also think it is mostly a Common Lisp wrapper around something called "webkit" or something like that.
2020-04-09T09:54:54Z andrzejku: beach, I wonder which UI framework is used here
2020-04-09T09:55:02Z andrzejku: ahh thats for sure
2020-04-09T09:55:05Z andrzejku: but which one
2020-04-09T09:55:18Z beach: Sorry, don't know.  You had better ask jmercouris.
2020-04-09T09:57:11Z no-defun-allowed: I believe it uses Gtk and the Webkit browser engine.
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2020-04-09T10:00:54Z andrzejku: by the way where Lisp is mostly used in web?
2020-04-09T10:01:12Z no-defun-allowed: Servers?
2020-04-09T10:03:16Z beach: andrzejku: Are you asking where Lisp is mostly use, and if that happens to be for web stuff?
2020-04-09T10:03:27Z beach: I don't think you will find a niche use for it like that.
2020-04-09T10:03:56Z andrzejku: beach, yup
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2020-04-09T10:04:38Z andrzejku: beach, ok I get it
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2020-04-09T10:05:41Z aeth: Professionally? Probably still AI (but much less important relative to the industry than in 1990) with a bit of web. Hobbyist? The largest niche community is probably gamedev.
2020-04-09T10:06:08Z aeth: Few actually publish their games, but many attempt to make them. :-)
2020-04-09T10:06:26Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think Lisp is one of those languages which is assigned a particular domain (unless you think of Lisp-the-paper Lisp, which is pretty much another mode of computation that is kind of lambda calculus but not really lambda calculus).
2020-04-09T10:08:11Z aeth: Few languages have one specific niche and no other niche. Few languages aren't used in web programming, too.
2020-04-09T10:08:30Z no-defun-allowed: JavaScript for the former?
2020-04-09T10:08:34Z aeth: It's one of those things you could find in any new language, just look for the microwebframework that's in the style of Python's Flask or (iirc) Ruby's Sinatra
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2020-04-09T10:08:58Z no-defun-allowed: At this rate I've jinksed myself though.
2020-04-09T10:09:20Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: nah, I'm sure someone is trying to write an OS in JavaScript
2020-04-09T10:09:47Z beach: Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics, AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and E-Commerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language, Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list.  - Kent Pitman
2020-04-09T10:10:07Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: (with-hazmat-suit-and-barf-bag (consider-reading #p"http://node-os.com/"))
2020-04-09T10:10:11Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed.
2020-04-09T10:11:57Z aeth: beach: so what you're saying is that CL is a language for chemistry simulations?
2020-04-09T10:12:36Z aeth: (if that was unclear, that was a joke, it was just something that wasn't really listed in the list)
2020-04-09T10:14:25Z beach: I am not saying anything.  Just quoting Kent Pitman.
2020-04-09T10:17:21Z jdz: aeth: Not sure you're also joking, but just in case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X69_42Mj-g
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2020-04-09T11:32:42Z jcowan: No Scheme standard was ever defined in terms of surface syntax; I've read them all and can say that definitively.
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2020-04-09T11:33:24Z jcowan: AFAIK the only standard that ever was defined that way was DIN Lisp 1.2 (neither Scheme nor CL), and it was one of the points Henry Baker raised in his critique (which is still very interesting).
2020-04-09T11:34:22Z jcowan: In addition, Guile is as multi-paradigm as CL, if by that you mean it has good support for OO.
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2020-04-09T11:40:00Z heisig: jcowan: You mean GOOPS?  It is far from being as useful, fast, and extensible as CLOS.
2020-04-09T11:40:16Z heisig: At least last time I checked.
2020-04-09T11:41:13Z jcowan: Less extensible, certainly.  Useful is a matter of what you want to use it for, and what you expect.  Fast, well, I'm sure it's possibly to implement CLOS to run slowly, even in these Latter Days of the Law.
2020-04-09T11:43:39Z heisig: Heh, yes it is definitely possible to implement CLOS to run slowly.
2020-04-09T11:44:18Z heisig: One can even slow down existing implementations by orders of magnitude, just by adding a single innocent method at the wrong place :)
2020-04-09T11:48:02Z _death: we need bp7patch for CL
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2020-04-09T12:01:45Z francogrex: Hi I want to compile a C code (or assembly code) but don't want to install gcc or any other C compiler. is there a lib in CL that lets me compile to an object file? it's won't be lisp code it's C or simply just machine code? does cffi allow?
2020-04-09T12:03:48Z no-defun-allowed: Er, you want a C compiler that emits C or assembler?
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2020-04-09T12:04:11Z no-defun-allowed: I may be able to cook up a C compiler that emits C. Just a moment...
2020-04-09T12:06:10Z francogrex: no-defun-allowed: actually that compiles to object file!
2020-04-09T12:06:12Z no-defun-allowed: (defun compile-c-program (input-source output-object) (with-open-file (input input-source) (with-open-file (output output-object) (loop for line = (read-line input nil nil) until (null line) do (write-line line output)))))
2020-04-09T12:07:01Z no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis maybe.
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2020-04-09T12:08:20Z beach: francogrex: I have thought for a very long time that C compilers should be written in Common Lisp, as opposed to in C or C++.  But I don't think anyone has done it yet.
2020-04-09T12:08:37Z beach: I was totally amazed when I saw that RMS had written GCC in C.
2020-04-09T12:09:00Z beach: But I guess he didn't have a reasonable Lisp system at the time.
2020-04-09T12:09:29Z francogrex: beach: yes i wish that would have been the case
2020-04-09T12:10:52Z francogrex: no-defun-allowed: Vacietis yes that seems ok though limited but appears to be in the spirit
2020-04-09T12:11:13Z beach: By the way, didn't GCC end up using the Boehm-Weiser GC after many years of attempting to avoid automatic memory management?
2020-04-09T12:12:14Z jackdaniel: it did
2020-04-09T12:12:19Z jackdaniel: internally
2020-04-09T12:12:36Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: vacietis is very restricted.
2020-04-09T12:12:47Z beach: jackdaniel: So I didn't dream that.  Thanks.
2020-04-09T12:13:13Z jackdaniel: also genera gad c compiler written in lisp
2020-04-09T12:13:45Z no-defun-allowed: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gccint/Type-Information.html says there is a garbage collector, but I don't know if it's conservative if it needs a preprocessor to emit some kind of tracing information.
2020-04-09T12:13:54Z beach: jackdaniel: Good point.
2020-04-09T12:13:58Z jackdaniel: some indefined behaviors are a result of lobbying by lisp vendors
2020-04-09T12:14:33Z jackdaniel: that i.e pointer doesn't have to be a number or something
2020-04-09T12:14:40Z jackdaniel: I don't remember
2020-04-09T12:15:04Z jackdaniel: had*
2020-04-09T12:15:34Z jackdaniel: undefuned* phone curse
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2020-04-09T12:16:40Z francogrex: yes indeed vacitis is a good proof of concept but very poor to produce anything of use
2020-04-09T12:16:56Z jackdaniel: it does naive parsing
2020-04-09T12:17:26Z jackdaniel: you may check the esrap parser for C on one of scymtym's repositories
2020-04-09T12:17:43Z jackdaniel: with the preprocessor and stuff
2020-04-09T12:18:40Z jackdaniel: it is a conforming piece implemenyed according to the newest C standard
2020-04-09T12:18:49Z jackdaniel: implemented*
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2020-04-09T12:20:18Z beach: I vaguely remember reading some exchange about that.  Very exciting.
2020-04-09T12:21:00Z beach: What are the plans in terms of what to use it for?
2020-04-09T12:21:34Z jackdaniel: I've started the gramma to have a conforming repl for C language in ECL :)
2020-04-09T12:21:46Z jackdaniel: as of scymtym , you have to ask him
2020-04-09T12:22:03Z beach: Wow!
2020-04-09T12:23:00Z francogrex: but how about sbcl or any lisp used just as an assembler? from handwritten asm code to object code... that in theory should be easy maybe exists already?
2020-04-09T12:24:53Z beach: You can probably grab the assembler from any of the major Common Lisp implementations, like SBCL, or CCL, and probably also Mezzano.
2020-04-09T12:25:18Z heisig: francogrex: You can use SBCL as an assembler via sb-c:define-vop.
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2020-04-09T12:27:21Z heisig: I know of programmers that wrap handcrafted assembler snippets in SBCL VOPs for the very performance critical parts of their code.
2020-04-09T12:31:29Z flip214: francogrex: https://pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/
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2020-04-09T12:32:00Z francogrex: heisig: hmm yes i know vops and i know how to use them, but not interested in that. I would like to output an .o object file. vop doesn't do that not made for it
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2020-04-09T12:39:33Z francogrex: I have a feeling CFFI might be able to do that i mean if one has the opcodes how dfficult would it be to compile them to an object file?
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2020-04-09T12:43:37Z heisig: Yes, one could do that, too.  But in 90% of the cases you can get the very same assembler code just by compiling Lisp with the right declarations.
2020-04-09T12:44:27Z heisig: And I'm trying to boost that to 95% of the cases by writing a proper SIMD interface for SBCL.
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2020-04-09T12:51:50Z francogrex: ok
2020-04-09T12:54:25Z francogrex: what about this?
2020-04-09T12:54:27Z francogrex: https://github.com/eschulte/elf
2020-04-09T12:55:45Z beach: francogrex: The hard part, at least for x86 is to select a machine instruction, given a source instruction, and also generating the bytes for that selected machine instruction.
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2020-04-09T13:33:58Z nwoob: If someone makes an api that gives dynami response in structure and to parse that structure can metaprogramming be helpful?
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2020-04-09T13:38:10Z beach: nwoob: I don't even know what that means.
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2020-04-09T13:38:53Z beach: What is "dynami response in structure"?
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2020-04-09T13:42:38Z nwoob: what if there is a project that build websites from a documentation that user can edit? Given that we have templates of design... The documentation data will be parsed and will become response of API or APIs
2020-04-09T13:43:23Z nwoob: so here response of API will be dynamic depending on the data provided by user
2020-04-09T13:43:38Z nwoob: beach:
2020-04-09T13:44:03Z nwoob: "dynamic" I mistyped in my first message
2020-04-09T13:48:15Z beach: That sounds like ordinary programming.
2020-04-09T13:48:45Z beach: The distinction is blurred of course.
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2020-04-09T14:17:50Z splittist: Forget the x86, the new hotness to target is PowerPoint https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LArkm4v5mWA
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2020-04-09T14:21:35Z pjb: nwoob: http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~hugo/publications/papers/IUI2005-metafor.pdf
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2020-04-09T14:31:22Z flip214: splittist: Do you mean PowerPC?
2020-04-09T14:32:11Z splittist: flip214: Nope - Microsoft PowerPoint.
2020-04-09T14:33:19Z splittist: Tom Wildenhain's previous video is fascinating, too.
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2020-04-09T14:34:24Z edgar-rft always thought that PCs don't work without power
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2020-04-09T16:23:39Z jcowan: edgar-rft: There were those crank-powered laptops: that's "power" to a physicist, but not the rest of us.
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2020-04-09T16:28:20Z edgar-rft: jcowan: crank-power will help us to gain world domination
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2020-04-09T16:32:45Z jcowan: Indeed
2020-04-09T16:34:31Z jcowan: apparently the hand crank on the XO laptop was basically vaporware: actually shipped XOs used ordinary power adapters.
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2020-04-09T16:37:19Z beach: Can we please stick to the channel topic?
2020-04-09T16:42:23Z LdBeth: look for a package capable for building oscillators
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2020-04-09T16:51:10Z LdBeth: https://github.com/titola/incudine
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2020-04-10T02:06:14Z peli: is there a good lightweight routing framework to do something like flask or sinatra in CL?
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2020-04-10T03:33:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-10T03:36:27Z beach: peli: You get more answers if you tell us what those things do.  Not everybody knows, and not everybody is willing to read the documentation of those things in order to answer you.
2020-04-10T03:39:40Z peli: beach: i thought they were common enough but
2020-04-10T03:39:51Z peli: lightweight web frameworks that basically just have routing
2020-04-10T03:40:09Z peli: they are rather unopinionated with regards to architecture
2020-04-10T03:40:17Z beach: See, I didn't even know it had to do with web stuff.
2020-04-10T03:40:32Z no-defun-allowed: Hunchentoot?
2020-04-10T03:40:36Z peli: well i guess you learned something today
2020-04-10T03:40:39Z peli: i also look forward to learning something
2020-04-10T03:40:41Z aeth: "like Flask" is actually a very good way to ask the question
2020-04-10T03:40:54Z aeth: Most such web frameworks do literally say that on their front page
2020-04-10T03:41:25Z aeth: I think the author of the alternative to Hunchentoot has one.
2020-04-10T03:41:30Z aeth: I forget the name.
2020-04-10T03:41:41Z aeth: (Of the author, the alternative, and the framework. It has been quite a few years)
2020-04-10T03:42:01Z ahungry: caveman2?
2020-04-10T03:42:11Z aeth: fukamachi is the author
2020-04-10T03:42:30Z aeth: cliki says caveman, but cliki is also notorious for being like 10 years out of date. https://cliki.net/web%20framework
2020-04-10T03:42:51Z no-defun-allowed: caveman2?
2020-04-10T03:42:54Z aeth: http://8arrow.org/caveman/
2020-04-10T03:43:03Z aeth: yeah, it even copies the @foo in a reader macro
2020-04-10T03:43:05Z peli: no-defun-allowed: aeth: that looks good! thank you
2020-04-10T03:43:09Z aeth: That might be going a bit too far to be like Flask at least imo
2020-04-10T03:43:09Z no-defun-allowed: Enjoy your documentation with that.
2020-04-10T03:44:16Z aeth: I think it can run on both the web servers though
2020-04-10T03:44:59Z aeth: peli: There's an even more lightweight (but a bit lower level) one that caveman is based on: http://8arrow.org/ningle/
2020-04-10T03:45:22Z aeth: (hmm... I'm not sure if it's the lower level or just a fork)
2020-04-10T03:46:02Z aeth: And the web server I was thinking of is Woo, but all of these web frameworks are based on clack, which runs on both Woo and Hunchentoot (and some other things)
2020-04-10T03:47:00Z ahungry: caveman2 has a 'start' command that supports booting up with woo, hunchentoot or wookie iirc, but thats again thanks to clack
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2020-04-10T04:02:19Z benjamin-l: I'm trying to make a class that extends the built-in array class like this: (defclass map-array (array) ())
2020-04-10T04:02:48Z benjamin-l: sbcl doesn't like this, and says that the metaclasses for common-lisp:built-in-class and common-lisp:standard-class are incompatible
2020-04-10T04:02:51Z no-defun-allowed: Can't do that.
2020-04-10T04:03:01Z benjamin-l: is there any way to work around this
2020-04-10T04:03:11Z no-defun-allowed: You can't subclass classes with metaclass built-in-class.
2020-04-10T04:03:17Z aeth: you want "extensible sequences"
2020-04-10T04:03:21Z aeth: a quick search yields https://research.gold.ac.uk/2344/1/sequences-20070301.pdf
2020-04-10T04:03:27Z aeth: "User-extensible sequences in Common Lisp"
2020-04-10T04:03:33Z aeth: I'm not sure if this is what SBCL implements.
2020-04-10T04:03:37Z benjamin-l: cool, thank you
2020-04-10T04:03:39Z aeth: Unfortunately, not every implementation implements it.
2020-04-10T04:03:55Z aeth: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Extensible-Sequences
2020-04-10T04:04:07Z no-defun-allowed: The CLHS page for BUILT-IN-CLASS explains why this is not possible in portable Common Lisp: "A built-in class is a class whose instances have [...] special representations."
2020-04-10T04:04:13Z no-defun-allowed: clhs built-in-class
2020-04-10T04:04:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_built_.htm
2020-04-10T04:05:01Z aeth: it's the same PDF but the link in the SBCL manual is dead
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2020-04-10T04:09:13Z Bike: this is what sbcl implements
2020-04-10T04:09:27Z aeth: There's probably a portability library that can implement extensible sequences on any implementation. You would just need to import those sequence functions instead of CL and extend a class other than sequence outside of implementations that don't permit extensible sequences.
2020-04-10T04:09:42Z aeth: But then the user would also have to do so, and it won't work for free with every sequence-generic function in every library
2020-04-10T04:13:10Z Bike: yes, shinmera wrote it https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-extensible-sequences/tree/master
2020-04-10T04:13:38Z aeth: of course Shinmera wrote it
2020-04-10T04:13:46Z aeth: it sounds like a very Shinmera library
2020-04-10T04:15:18Z aeth: benjamin-l: you'll want to use the library Bike linked to instead of directly using SBCL's API
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2020-04-10T06:11:28Z nwoob: do you people here recommend going through SICP if I have almost none mathematical background?
2020-04-10T06:11:58Z Shinmera: aeth: what does that even mean
2020-04-10T06:20:39Z aeth: Shinmera: that if there's a portability library, odds are it's written by you
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2020-04-10T06:22:19Z Shinmera: I don't have /that/ many
2020-04-10T06:23:27Z aeth: okay, you don't have the majority, but you may have the plurality, but https://portability.cl/ is probably a biased sample
2020-04-10T06:24:01Z Shinmera: I'm sure there's a few missing still.
2020-04-10T06:26:11Z aeth: If you mean missing altogether, the most noticably missing thing is no portability layer over sb-unicode afaik, so no portable unicode-enabled alternative to sb-unicode:whitespace-p among other, harder-to-implement things like sb-unicode:casefold
2020-04-10T06:27:20Z Shinmera: There is cl-unicode, though it's not as fast as sb-unicode and is missing a bunch of stuff.
2020-04-10T06:28:18Z aeth: It doesn't look like it has either of my examples (whitespace or casefold/foldcase). It's in my history, but that might be one reason why I don't use it.
2020-04-10T06:29:36Z beach: nwoob: It depends on your objectives.  If you want to write pragmatic Common Lisp code as opposed to understanding the basic ideas of recursion, encapsulation, etc.  you are probably better off with PCL.
2020-04-10T06:29:52Z beach: nwoob: Also, it depends on what kind of programming you have done in the past.
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2020-04-10T06:58:16Z pjb: nwoob: I would advise to acquire some mathematical background, this would help a lot to be a programmer, and anything else too, nowadays…
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2020-04-10T09:13:44Z White_Flame: hmm, so if I have a lexer/parser that takes a character stream, how best to integrate it into the lisp reader for a non-string sublanguage?
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2020-04-10T09:16:28Z flip214: Is there an easy way to compare two hash-table trees for EQUALity? Apart from using ALEXANDRIA:HASH-TABLE-ALIST recursively, then sorting, or so?
2020-04-10T09:18:50Z flip214: thanks, got it already in 7 lines
2020-04-10T09:19:14Z jackdaniel: flip214: equalp works on hash tables
2020-04-10T09:19:32Z White_Flame: equalp is often wrong/unwanted due to ignoring string case
2020-04-10T09:19:43Z aeth: If EQUALP doesn't quite do what you want (e.g. it's case insensitive) just maphash
2020-04-10T09:20:11Z aeth: the only potentially tricky part is that you need to know if you didn't cover any values in the hash table not being mapped over
2020-04-10T09:21:16Z aeth: The laziest programmer way to avoid this issue is to have a counter since you can easily take the size of a hash table at the end. Or even just do a size comparison first. If the sizes aren't equal, they can't be equal.
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2020-04-10T09:23:52Z aeth: Actually, LOOP is better than MAPHASH here because you want short circuiting
2020-04-10T09:24:58Z heisig: You can also short-circuit MAPHASH, using GO or RETURN-FROM.
2020-04-10T09:25:11Z aeth: ah
2020-04-10T09:25:31Z heisig: Or you could use WITH-HASH-TABLE-ITERATOR, if you want your program to be particularly ugly :)
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2020-04-10T09:28:47Z White_Flame: I made do-plist, do-alist, do-hash specifically with a surrounding (block nil ...) exactly for that
2020-04-10T09:29:57Z aeth: ah
2020-04-10T09:30:24Z White_Flame: I use them surprisingly often, even though it's not that big of a deal, it feels nice
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2020-04-10T09:32:26Z heisig: I prefer non-nil block names.  I tend to forget which macros add an implicit block named nil, so an occurring RETURN can be quite confusing.
2020-04-10T09:32:52Z White_Flame: return-from is annoyingly long for me, for some reason
2020-04-10T09:33:02Z White_Flame: even though I do use extremely long names in my own stuff
2020-04-10T09:35:52Z no-defun-allowed: I still need to think of a better name than DECENTRALISE-STANDARD-SYSTEM:UPDATE-SYSTEM-FOR-NEW-INTERESTING-OBJECT-PREDICATE
2020-04-10T09:36:22Z flip214: White_Flame: why not call the blocks 'do-plist, 'do-hash, etc.?
2020-04-10T09:37:07Z White_Flame: purely because I'd rather do (reutrn foo) than (return-from do-plist val)
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2020-04-10T09:37:32Z White_Flame: if I need to return deeper (which is exremely rarely; plain early exit is rare enough), then I'll manually use a lbock
2020-04-10T09:37:54Z White_Flame: or a block, if I want it to compile without typos
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2020-04-10T09:38:43Z White_Flame: no-defun-allowed: seems like a fine name to me, assuming your tab key works
2020-04-10T09:39:16Z no-defun-allowed: White_Flame: Then I get lazy and write d-s-s:u-s-f and SLIME gets confused as it doesn't like expanding both sides of a package :
2020-04-10T09:39:34Z White_Flame: no package local nickname for the first part?
2020-04-10T09:40:02Z aeth: Oh no, Gitlab has a new "smart" editor for its snippits that messes up the indentation.
2020-04-10T09:40:36Z no-defun-allowed: Someone would probably tell me decentralise-standard-system is too short and ambiguous.
2020-04-10T09:42:42Z no-defun-allowed: To be safe, I should use reverse domain name notation and call it org.cooperative-of-applied-language.decentralise2.standard-system:update-system-for-new-interesting-object-predicate
2020-04-10T09:43:09Z White_Flame: still shorter than real java code
2020-04-10T09:43:17Z no-defun-allowed: ):
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2020-04-10T09:47:02Z aeth: Well, I hope I didn't mess this up when I manually indented the code like... well, I don't think I've ever manually indented Common Lisp before. https://gitlab.com/snippets/1964967
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2020-04-10T09:47:27Z aeth: Thanks for messing up your simple pastebin functionality by making your editor "smart", Gitlab.
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2020-04-10T09:52:45Z White_Flame: also, thanks for showing empty pages when javascript is disabled, gitlab
2020-04-10T09:53:24Z aeth: There's actually a way around that because it has an API
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2020-04-10T09:53:47Z aeth: But I generally disable JavaScript through umatrix because far too many things break without it running entirely
2020-04-10T09:54:06Z aeth: umatrix defaults to enabling first party JS, which works for pretty much every site that isn't a news site
2020-04-10T09:54:44Z White_Flame: everybody uses cloudflare & google js links though
2020-04-10T09:55:29Z aeth: You can whitelist more than just first party, but "everybody uses cloudflare" is part of what I mean by "except for news sites"
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2020-04-10T09:58:30Z aeth: but anyway, my points are (1) wow that was unexpectedly hard because hash tables are kind of the worst case for this sort of thing (maybe I should put it in my util library) and (2) the last thing that needs a "smart" JS editor that messes with indentation is a pastebin for source code
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2020-04-10T10:33:10Z flip214: aeth: your paste doesn't do recursive hash-table trees.
2020-04-10T10:34:37Z flip214: aeth: I've got hashtables with string keys, so I resorted to providing a "readable" (ha!) representation, and then do (equalp) of both.
2020-04-10T10:34:41Z flip214: see https://paste.debian.net/hidden/592182e3/
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2020-04-10T11:36:09Z flip214: can a macro see the "original" form that it resulted from that was given to the compiler before any macroexpansions started?
2020-04-10T11:37:41Z MichaelRaskin: macros are processed top-down, if that's what you mean — internal macro invocations are not expanded
2020-04-10T11:37:46Z Shinmera: macros are expanded outside in, so that's what it gets.
2020-04-10T11:38:56Z phoe: flip214: there's no way to do that unless your outer macros explicitly communicate with the inner ones in some way. see https://etc.ruricolist.com/2020/03/15/the-symbol-macrolet-trick/
2020-04-10T11:39:20Z phoe: you can pass information through the &environment that way.
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2020-04-10T11:44:59Z White_Flame: wow, that's pretty nasty
2020-04-10T11:46:02Z White_Flame: if I read flip214's question correctly, in your (defmacro foo (params) ...) the params will already be the original pre-macroexpansion form, if it contains any
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2020-04-10T11:46:29Z White_Flame: because of the outside-in ordering
2020-04-10T11:46:41Z flip214: White_Flame: I'd like to annotate source forms for debugging purposes... so the macroexpanded things don't help that much
2020-04-10T11:46:45Z MichaelRaskin: White_Flame: my paper about code walking contains an actual nasty example
2020-04-10T11:47:08Z MichaelRaskin: flip214: you get original non-expanded forms
2020-04-10T11:47:32Z MichaelRaskin: White_Flame: the author here is being nice with inter-macro communication
2020-04-10T11:49:13Z White_Flame: are there compatibility libs to access environment objects in a standard way?
2020-04-10T11:50:18Z Shinmera: there's several cltl2 portability libraries in various states of... compatibility
2020-04-10T11:52:49Z flip214: I've got comments that I want to associate to the forms after them. but if a macro expands into some code, the CONSes or form tree won't match what I'm seeing at the form of the comment.
2020-04-10T11:53:34Z flip214: I'd like to be able to later on find the comment of the given form.
2020-04-10T11:54:34Z Shinmera: (defmacro with-comment (comment &body stuff) #| stash the stuff and comment somewhere to look up later #| `(progn ,@stuff))
2020-04-10T11:54:50Z Shinmera: err, |# at the end there but whatever
2020-04-10T11:58:45Z White_Flame: how do you have a reference to the form in order to try to find the comment?
2020-04-10T11:58:51Z flip214: yeah, but how would stuff find its comment again?
2020-04-10T11:59:11Z Shinmera: I have no damn idea what you want to begin with, so
2020-04-10T11:59:14Z White_Flame: if it's data, unevaluated, your macro won't run.  if it's evaluated, the "form" is now in a compiled form and you don't have a reference to its bit in the machine code
2020-04-10T11:59:36Z flip214: White_Flame: some things have a compiler-macro that has "&whole form" to reference back into a hash-table for the comment
2020-04-10T12:00:15Z White_Flame: so you want an EQ reference to that form somehow from somewhere else?
2020-04-10T12:00:40Z flip214: I guess so... I got myself confused already ;/
2020-04-10T12:00:47Z White_Flame: as a key to the hashtable of comments or something
2020-04-10T12:00:50Z flip214: Might need to sleep over the whole concept
2020-04-10T12:00:55Z White_Flame: yeah, I don't know what your lookup key is
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2020-04-10T12:32:04Z moewe: Hey folks, trying some LISPing. I cant find an answer to my question:
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2020-04-10T12:33:31Z Xach leans forward in anticipation
2020-04-10T12:33:52Z heisig: 42
2020-04-10T12:34:12Z Josh_2: ^
2020-04-10T12:34:14Z moewe: When I'm inside a package -> (in-package), I obviously can't access outside symbols, especially (true). I can't find how to access that inside a package? I also tried to simply exit the package namespace and execute it there, but the internet said to simply use the lisp namespace. But at least in sbcl it doesn't exist.
2020-04-10T12:34:28Z moewe: In short: how to evaluate (true) inside a package?
2020-04-10T12:34:38Z Xach: moewe: the premise is wrong. you can access any symbol at any time.
2020-04-10T12:34:50Z Xach: moewe: to access it without a prefix requires some setup.
2020-04-10T12:35:16Z Xach: moewe: TRUE isn't a standard symbol - do you know its home package name?
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2020-04-10T12:36:02Z moewe: oh damn I this is a weird coindidence
2020-04-10T12:36:36Z moewe: I wanted to just let the script wait forever, so I did (sleep (true)), but apparently sbcl just crashed at that moment, and that doesnt even exist
2020-04-10T12:36:37Z moewe: huh
2020-04-10T12:36:39Z moewe: ok
2020-04-10T12:36:44Z moewe: let me rephrase the question
2020-04-10T12:37:02Z Bike: what is "true"?
2020-04-10T12:37:11Z moewe: Is there a way to not let a script exit on the end? I need to keep it alive so a thread can continue working
2020-04-10T12:37:23Z Xach: moewe: sure. (loop (sleep 1)) is one way.
2020-04-10T12:37:29Z moewe: aaah thanks!
2020-04-10T12:37:45Z Xach: (loop) is another but that will use CPU
2020-04-10T12:37:47Z _death: join-thread
2020-04-10T12:38:02Z Xach: that is a very nice way when a thread is involved!
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2020-04-10T12:45:39Z Shinmera: (sleep most-positive-fixnum)
2020-04-10T12:47:55Z no-defun-allowed: (sleep most-positive-double-float)
2020-04-10T12:48:16Z no-defun-allowed: Aw, SBCL doesn't like that.
2020-04-10T12:48:35Z Shinmera: (sleep float-features:single-float-positive-infinity) :V
2020-04-10T12:48:59Z Bike: join-thread is probably the way to go if you are in fact wanting a thread to finish
2020-04-10T12:49:19Z no-defun-allowed: "arithmetic error FLOATING-POINT-INVALID-OPERATION signalled" time to report this bug in SBCL /s
2020-04-10T12:49:52Z Xach: moewe: out of curiosity, what is the thread doing?
2020-04-10T12:51:36Z moewe: I actually just sent you an E-Mail for inclusion about that :D I try to create a telegram bot, and that creates a thread in the background to listen for messages, so that thread never finishes
2020-04-10T12:52:00Z Bike: join-thread will never return, then. seems fine
2020-04-10T12:52:35Z _death: maybe it would be a good idea to have a way to signal the thread that it needs to die
2020-04-10T12:52:45Z moewe: Also thought about that
2020-04-10T12:52:53Z moewe: currently screening and CTRL+C
2020-04-10T12:53:07Z moewe: but that's in the future - I just want that thing to work
2020-04-10T12:53:12Z moewe: at least rn
2020-04-10T12:53:30Z Xach: Are there other threads running?
2020-04-10T12:53:45Z moewe: but since I want to liberate it as soon as it is, I need to rework that as later on ^^"
2020-04-10T12:54:02Z moewe: I don't know what that lib does, but at least I didn't start a different one
2020-04-10T12:54:13Z Xach: oh.
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2020-04-10T12:57:31Z Xach: moewe: if you are able it is helpful for you to create a github issue
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2020-04-10T13:32:00Z francogrex: Hi, does anyone know how to make a pointer executable in memory, using sb-posix? (sbcl)?
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2020-04-10T13:33:24Z _death: mprotect?
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2020-04-10T13:34:35Z francogrex: on windows I used something like that (cffi:with-foreign-object (oldprotect 'dword) (VIRTUAL-PROTECT pointer 8 #x40 oldprotect))
2020-04-10T13:34:49Z francogrex: to make the pointer executable
2020-04-10T13:35:06Z francogrex: _death: mprotect yes but how?
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2020-04-10T13:35:27Z _death: it's not the pointer that is made executable.. it's the memory pointed to
2020-04-10T13:35:53Z _death: man mprotect
2020-04-10T13:36:33Z francogrex: yes but from within sbcl. not man mprotect
2020-04-10T13:37:02Z Bike: you can probably call mprotect from within sbcl
2020-04-10T13:39:55Z francogrex: mprotect(code,pagesize,PROT_EXEC) I have a pointer with sb-alien:make-alien ...
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2020-04-10T14:11:19Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell francogrex look up mmap
2020-04-10T14:11:19Z Colleen: francogrex: About mmap https://shinmera.github.io/mmap#about_mmap
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2020-04-10T15:12:09Z flip214: when using MACROEXPAND(-ALL), can I tell sbcl to use the environment it's currently running the form in, so that the currently active bindings are seen by the macros?
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2020-04-10T15:24:23Z phoe: yes, they accept the &environment arg
2020-04-10T15:24:46Z phoe: but you need a macro to access its value
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2020-04-10T15:29:25Z flip214: I tried to copy CAPTURE-ENV from the SBCL tests... but it seems to capture only local functions, and not special variables
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2020-04-10T15:33:22Z pjb: (defmacro expand (&environment env expression) (macroexpand expression env)) (macrolet ((moo (x) `'(in moo ,x))) (expand (moo 42))) #| --> (in moo 42) |#
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2020-04-10T15:54:42Z flip214: yeah, right, I could try to expand in a macro and return the expansion from it... does that match my needs?
2020-04-10T15:54:45Z flip214: thanks anyway!
2020-04-10T15:57:14Z beach: flip214: Have you explained what it is you are trying to accomplish?  I must have missed it.  But it sounds like you need some other tools.
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2020-04-11T03:02:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-04-11T03:18:49Z ahungry: mornin
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2020-04-11T09:47:01Z McParen: hello, does somebody have experience with cffi-groveler? i am considering including the groveler to substitute a hard-coded set of constants in my ncurses library, and I cannot assess how risky it is to have a groveling step when the library is built.
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2020-04-11T09:48:02Z Shinmera: Well it needs a C compiler.
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2020-04-11T09:50:57Z heisig: McParen: I use the groveler for cl-mpi (https://github.com/marcoheisig/cl-mpi), if you need some inspiration.
2020-04-11T09:51:24Z heisig: I haven't had any issues so far.
2020-04-11T09:52:59Z McParen: did your users have any problems when the library is built?
2020-04-11T09:54:04Z McParen: the cl-test-grid often reports problems (or so i udnerstand it) with the groveler: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/cl-mpi.html
2020-04-11T09:55:39Z heisig: Oh, but that is because cl-mpi requires a particular C compiler (mpicc).  If are happy with the default, or with something widely used like gcc, there shouldn't be any problems.
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2020-04-11T09:57:45Z McParen: it is not only cl-mpi, other projects i checked also show problems on cl-test-grid: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/cl-charms.html
2020-04-11T10:00:50Z heisig: Is there a reason why cl-test-grid only tests sbcl-1.3.2 on arm, or does it only show test failures?
2020-04-11T10:01:34Z McParen: this varies from month to month, i think that depends on who contributes the test cases.
2020-04-11T10:01:47Z McParen: no, it usually includes successful runs too.
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2020-04-11T10:02:55Z McParen: I only need a few integer constants, so I dont know whether it is less problematic to simply hardcode them or to add a dependence to a C compiler, include files, etc.
2020-04-11T10:03:56Z heisig: No, don't hardcode constants.  C is not dynamically typed, so you can get some very bizarre bugs that way.
2020-04-11T10:05:05Z heisig: Asking the C compiler is the right way.  Or, you could rewrite all the C dependencies in Lisp :)
2020-04-11T10:05:33Z McParen: the dependence in question is libc, locale.h
2020-04-11T10:05:59Z edgar-rft: AFAIK a constant that can change isn't a constant
2020-04-11T10:06:28Z McParen: it is the #define LC_ALL
2020-04-11T10:07:32Z McParen: I do not know how often the integers behind the defines are changed or whether they are equal between different systems
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2020-04-11T10:07:52Z heisig: Fun fact: A C constant is not even a Lisp constant, because the Lisp process might live longer than the version of the C library in use.
2020-04-11T10:08:21Z heisig: This can actually happen if you reload dynamic libraries after resuming from save-lisp-and-die.
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2020-04-11T10:09:36Z heisig should have written 'Lisp image' instead of 'Lisp process'
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2020-04-11T10:11:10Z Shinmera: heisig: so what you're saying is that grovelling is also wrong
2020-04-11T10:11:59Z aeth: heisig: I assume that C type sizes won't change, although of course, that's only an assumption
2020-04-11T10:12:44Z edgar-rft: let's start assumption-based programming
2020-04-11T10:12:54Z Shinmera: edgar-rft: that's what everyone's already doing
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2020-04-11T10:13:40Z McParen: Shinmera: does any of your systems have cffi-grovel as a dependence? if yes, did it cause problems for users?
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2020-04-11T10:13:53Z Shinmera: No. I avoid the groveller because of the C compiler dependency.
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2020-04-11T10:14:09Z edgar-rft: I already wrongly assumed that a constant is constant
2020-04-11T10:14:11Z Shinmera: I hard-code constants per platform and have not had issues because of that so far.
2020-04-11T10:14:20Z McParen: okay, thanks.
2020-04-11T10:14:56Z aeth: edgar-rft: I assume that the language I'm using is constant, which works for CL so far
2020-04-11T10:14:56Z Shinmera: Well, not just the C compiler dependency, but also the dependency on the library being installed (with header files to boot)
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2020-04-11T10:15:07Z aeth: oone of these days someone's going to remove the deprecated functions like remove-if-not, though
2020-04-11T10:15:13Z aeth: s/oone/one/
2020-04-11T10:15:22Z edgar-rft: LC_ALL = Lisp
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2020-04-11T10:18:13Z heisig: Shinmera: I think you can re-grovel, if you really care about the life of your Lisp image.  But nowadays, I just try to avoid C dependencies.
2020-04-11T10:18:49Z heisig: aeth: Nobody is ever going to remove remove-if-not.
2020-04-11T10:18:55Z Shinmera: heisig: re-grovel on a target machine?
2020-04-11T10:19:16Z Shinmera: fat chance of that!
2020-04-11T10:20:10Z heisig: Only if your goal is to deploy long-lasting images.  If you just want to obtain an executable, feel free to forget about this issue.
2020-04-11T10:20:37Z heisig: I'm just mentioning this here because it already bit me once.
2020-04-11T10:21:20Z heisig: You can only have one active MPI implementation at a time.  But for testing, it is nice if you can change the implementation while your REPL stays alive.
2020-04-11T10:22:00Z aeth: heisig: they could remove remove-if-not via (remove-if-not (complement #'deprecatedp) functions)
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2020-04-11T10:24:38Z heisig: Nah.  Should there ever be people with enough influence to release a new CL standard, they will also have enough wisdom not to change the CL package.
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2020-04-11T10:28:37Z aeth: it was a joke
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2020-04-11T10:48:46Z heisig: There are things one shouldn't joke about :)
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2020-04-11T10:52:39Z vms14: (defpackage :game (:use :common-lisp :xlib))
2020-04-11T10:52:48Z vms14: Undefined function :USE called with arguments
2020-04-11T10:52:55Z vms14: what's wrong? I'm using ccl
2020-04-11T10:53:25Z vms14: isn't part of the standard? I see it in clhs
2020-04-11T10:53:32Z vms14: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2020-04-11T10:53:41Z _death: you're likely evaluating it in a package where defpackage is not cl:defpackage
2020-04-11T10:53:51Z vms14: hmm, thanks
2020-04-11T10:56:48Z vms14: Using #<Package "COMMON-LISP"> in #<Package "GAME"> would cause name conflicts with symbols already present in that package:DEFPACKAGE  COMMON-LISP:DEFPACKAGE meh
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2020-04-11T10:57:37Z vms14: how should I use defpackage in a way it will work in all implementations without troubles? in sbcl I saw no problem
2020-04-11T10:59:27Z _death: it's unlikely that your issue is due to difference in implementations
2020-04-11T10:59:56Z vms14: it's weird, if I put ccl --load game.lisp I see no warnings, but with slime I get a restart
2020-04-11T11:00:26Z vms14: yeah, the real reason is I'm too noob xD
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2020-04-11T11:05:25Z _death: packages are stateful, so you may get yourself into a "weird" state.. if you're not sure about the current state, one way is to restart your lisp and try again
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2020-04-11T11:07:17Z _death: you can also explicitly qualify symbols to help in figuring out the state, e.g., using cl:*package* to determine the current package
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2020-04-11T11:09:01Z _death: or (cl:describe 'defpackage) to see information about the defpackage symbol in the current package
2020-04-11T11:09:23Z vms14: I've used make-package
2020-04-11T11:09:30Z vms14: I see no warnings this way
2020-04-11T11:09:46Z vms14: (make-package :game :use '(:common-lisp :xlib))
2020-04-11T11:09:53Z _death: programming by magic
2020-04-11T11:09:56Z vms14: which I don't understand
2020-04-11T11:10:19Z vms14: why defpackage gives me errors, and I even have to put the package name like cl:defpackage
2020-04-11T11:10:25Z vms14: and make-package just works
2020-04-11T11:10:30Z vms14: but meh
2020-04-11T11:10:45Z _death: if you "meh" you'll remain a noob
2020-04-11T11:11:10Z vms14: I thought defpackage was a fancy way to use make-package
2020-04-11T11:11:31Z vms14: and I always used defpackage in sbcl, never had a problem
2020-04-11T11:11:34Z vms14: until now using ccl
2020-04-11T11:12:06Z _death: so, figure out what the issue with your use of defpackage is
2020-04-11T11:12:48Z vms14: the issue is defpackage tells me there is a shadowing problem with the 'defpackage symbol once I :use :common-lisp
2020-04-11T11:12:57Z vms14: but make-package does not
2020-04-11T11:13:07Z _death: figure out the cause of this
2020-04-11T11:14:22Z vms14: wtf, in the repl there is no trouble now
2020-04-11T11:14:28Z vms14: (defpackage :meh (:use :common-lisp))
2020-04-11T11:17:22Z vms14: restarted slime and I cannot reproduce the error, so I don't know what was happening
2020-04-11T11:17:28Z _death: transient issues like getting into a "weird state" during development are ok to ignore, but for your written code you should understand 100% why something works or not
2020-04-11T11:17:56Z vms14: it's weird, because the only thing I've done was to quickload clx and defpackage then
2020-04-11T11:18:11Z vms14: and I've copypasted the same sexp that gave me the error
2020-04-11T11:18:40Z vms14: but, I'll ignore that unless it happens again, maybe I did something without knowing
2020-04-11T11:18:55Z vms14: thanks anyway _death for trying to help
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2020-04-11T11:27:26Z theosvoitha: Hello. Am just curious. What is lisp still used for? I somehow like it. am learning programming for data science.
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2020-04-11T11:28:49Z no-defun-allowed: "Having asked about the possibility that there are real people out there who use Lisp (as opposed to AI People who are known to be non-real and having received no answers, I can only conclude that LISP is not being used and that it is not, therefore, a real language." — Lisp Pointers, 198something
2020-04-11T11:29:48Z no-defun-allowed: A few things. Some that spring to mind include programs that give advice to traders, and the (in my opinion) best quantum computer compiler and simulator.
2020-04-11T11:31:03Z heisig: theosvoitha: I think there isn't a single domain where Lisp hasn't been used successfully.  See https://lisp-lang.org/success/ for a few examples.
2020-04-11T11:31:43Z theosvoitha: heisig: checking. thanks. as i said i somehow like simplicity.
2020-04-11T11:32:01Z no-defun-allowed: There's also some game developers using Lisp, high performance computing people, Internet server making people, and generally it's usable for anything.
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2020-04-11T11:35:16Z theosvoitha: i read it . interesting.
2020-04-11T11:35:39Z theosvoitha: is this `https://lisp-lang.org/` the official Lisp website?
2020-04-11T11:35:53Z theosvoitha: because i can't find the official website in wiki.
2020-04-11T11:36:13Z theosvoitha: also i found that Emacs Lisp is a dialect of the Lisp programming language used as a scripting language by Emacs
2020-04-11T11:36:33Z beach: theosvoitha: What would be an "official website" for Common Lisp?  Nobody owns it.
2020-04-11T11:36:58Z theosvoitha: beach: No i mean where can i download or learn ?
2020-04-11T11:37:05Z beach: theosvoitha: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.  It has an ANSI standard, and multiple implementations.
2020-04-11T11:37:32Z beach: theosvoitha: Each implementation is independent.  Common Lisp is not a single-implementation language.
2020-04-11T11:38:09Z beach: theosvoitha: Currently, the best suggestion for a newbie bundle seems to be Portacle.
2020-04-11T11:38:09Z theosvoitha: beach: Still something i may follow to learn. where should i start from?
2020-04-11T11:38:29Z beach: minion: Please tell theosvoitha about PCL.
2020-04-11T11:38:29Z minion: theosvoitha: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-04-11T11:39:29Z beach: theosvoitha: Also, there is #clschool for question about basic Common Lisp.
2020-04-11T11:40:09Z beach: clhs 1
2020-04-11T11:40:09Z specbot: Introduction: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_.htm
2020-04-11T11:40:23Z theosvoitha: thanks no-defun-allowed ! heisig
2020-04-11T11:40:37Z beach: theosvoitha: That's as close to the official standards document as you can get.
2020-04-11T11:40:50Z theosvoitha: also thanks beach minion
2020-04-11T11:41:00Z theosvoitha: beach: which one the gigamonkey OR lispworks??
2020-04-11T11:41:29Z beach: theosvoitha: The Lispworks document is the standard.  It is not a pedagogical document.  It is the definition of the language.
2020-04-11T11:41:48Z beach: theosvoitha: PCL is a book, written in order for people to learn from.
2020-04-11T11:42:09Z theosvoitha: beach: thanks i appreciate. i bookmarked both of them. really appreciate !!
2020-04-11T11:42:18Z beach: Good luck.
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2020-04-11T11:42:45Z theosvoitha: i will be idling here and at #clschool if it's allowed.
2020-04-11T11:42:52Z beach: Absolutely.
2020-04-11T11:43:09Z theosvoitha: thanks beach ! have a nice day !
2020-04-11T11:43:26Z beach: Thanks.
2020-04-11T11:47:34Z _death: theosvoitha: http://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/
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2020-04-11T11:57:48Z vms14: theosvoitha: for prototyping is one of the best languages
2020-04-11T11:58:01Z vms14: also for building complex software and trying new things
2020-04-11T11:58:31Z vms14: specially with macros, creating dsl is very easy, which really helps at creating big and complex software
2020-04-11T11:59:07Z vms14: for building your own stuff, it's a very nice language to have in hand
2020-04-11T11:59:34Z vms14: and with slime you get instant feedback of everything you write
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2020-04-11T12:00:21Z vms14: this is very important, since there is no compile cycle nor even save-file/call-interpreter
2020-04-11T12:00:35Z vms14: you just write something and execute it, so you know if does what you wanted
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2020-04-11T13:36:16Z edgar-rft: theosvoitha: in case nobody has already mentioned it before, there is a Common Lisp Wiki with lots of useful information -> https://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started
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2020-04-11T18:24:32Z eta: is there a version of MACROLET that works like LABELS, i.e. you can reference variables in the lexical environment?
2020-04-11T18:29:56Z LdBeth: you can always reference lexical variables in macro
2020-04-11T18:30:51Z LdBeth: although they are not guaranteed to be lexical
2020-04-11T18:30:51Z eta: LdBeth, CLHS seems to say doing so is undefined behaviour
2020-04-11T18:30:53Z eta: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2020-04-11T18:31:00Z eta: > Declarations and macrolet and symbol-macrolet definitions affect the local macro definitions in a macrolet, but the consequences are undefined if the local macro definitions reference any local variable or function bindings that are visible in that lexical environment.
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2020-04-11T18:34:11Z eta wonders if they can get away with it anyway
2020-04-11T18:34:45Z LdBeth: but regular macro still works
2020-04-11T18:35:16Z pjb: eta: you should clarify what you want to do.
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2020-04-11T18:35:46Z pjb: eta: notably, macros are expanded at compilation time, while lexical bindings are established at run-time.  Like, in a 100 years, on a different computer (probably an emulator then).
2020-04-11T18:36:03Z eta: pjb, I want to write (let ((a 1)) (macrolet ((do-thing-with-a (b) `(+ ,a ,b))) (do-thing-with-a 2)))
2020-04-11T18:36:16Z eta: i.e. I'm referencing the lexical variable 'a' inside my macrolet
2020-04-11T18:36:26Z pjb: Yes, this is not possible with LET.
2020-04-11T18:36:36Z eta: pjb, so I have to use SYMBOL-MACROLET or EVAL?
2020-04-11T18:36:57Z pjb: eta: if you want to have variables that you can mutate in the macro (at macroexpansion time/compilation time) and then access it (or not) at run-time, you will need to write your own MACRO-LET macro.
2020-04-11T18:37:16Z eta: pjb, I don't want to mutate them
2020-04-11T18:37:30Z eta: pjb, could I perhaps change ,a to a and have it still work?
2020-04-11T18:37:31Z pjb: Then symbol-macrolet can be a good solution.
2020-04-11T18:37:55Z pjb: (symbol-macrolet ((a 1)) (macrolet ((do-thing-with-a (b) `(+ ,a ,b))) (do-thing-with-a 2))) #| --> 3 |# seems conforming to me.
2020-04-11T18:38:26Z pjb: eta: if you changed ,a to a it would indeed work with let, since a would be referenced a run-time then.
2020-04-11T18:38:32Z eta: oh okay
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2020-04-11T18:39:03Z eta: pjb, I hadn't seen that SYMBOL-MACROLET trick before (nice!), but I'll just go with a instead of ,a for this case :)
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2020-04-11T18:40:31Z pjb: eta: just keep in mind of WHEN different expressions are evaluated. (macroexpansion time, compilation time, load time, run-time, when evaluated by a call to EVAL, when read (reader macros, #.) etc).
2020-04-11T18:40:57Z eta: pjb, that helps me understand it, thanks!
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2020-04-11T18:49:52Z jcowan: My sense is that a construct for defining recursive local macros is not sufficiently useful.
2020-04-11T18:50:40Z jcowan: Indeed, I think it may be unnecessary, given that the result of a macro procedure is itself expanded again.
2020-04-11T18:51:18Z jcowan: So it would only come up if you want macro A and B, declared in the same scope, to invoke one another in their bodies
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2020-04-11T18:54:14Z Bike: sounds exciting.
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2020-04-11T21:59:25Z _death: https://i.imgur.com/WTukenP.png <- deepspeech still has a way to go
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2020-04-12T00:07:41Z jcowan: Bike: In the R6RS standard it is possible to use macros before they are defined, except at the REPL (whose behavior R6RS does not specify).  I argued against this (mis)feature in R7RS using a parable, "The Tale of Professor Simpleton and Dr. Hardcase" <https://www.mail-archive.com/r6rs-discuss@lists.r6rs.org/msg04199.html>
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2020-04-12T00:14:44Z Bike: what does using a macro before it's defined mean, exactly
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2020-04-12T00:20:27Z bjorkintosh: wishful thinking! :-)
2020-04-12T00:24:35Z _death: if macro forms are expanded just before they are evaluated, then it is possible to have them stored before macro definition (but not in CL)
2020-04-12T00:26:24Z aeth: that sounds horrible
2020-04-12T00:26:45Z aeth: (for AOT compilers)
2020-04-12T00:35:16Z jcowan: (aeth: it's only possible within a library, the assumption being that you read in the whole library and process the syntax definitions before any variable definitions.)
2020-04-12T00:35:24Z jcowan: But I think it's bad on human factors grounds
2020-04-12T00:35:32Z jcowan: per the parable
2020-04-12T00:37:21Z LdBeth: is there any optimizations for a quite large array with only small integers as elements?
2020-04-12T00:37:54Z LdBeth: for example a (factorial 12) size array with only integers from 1 to 12 as elements?
2020-04-12T00:40:16Z no-defun-allowed: Odds are the upgraded element type of (integer 1 12) would be (unsigned-byte 8)
2020-04-12T00:40:27Z no-defun-allowed needs to check if INTEGER bounds are inclusive or exclusive
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2020-04-12T00:41:10Z _death: sbcl has (unsigned-byte 4) specialization
2020-04-12T00:41:28Z no-defun-allowed: (Right, a number is an inclusive integer designator unless I wrap it in a list)
2020-04-12T00:41:29Z LdBeth: It has to CCL specifically
2020-04-12T00:41:32Z no-defun-allowed: Ah yeah.
2020-04-12T00:42:02Z no-defun-allowed: In CCL: (upgraded-array-element-type '(integer 1 12)) ; ⇒ (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8)
2020-04-12T00:42:34Z LdBeth: yup, a lot quicker
2020-04-12T00:46:16Z no-defun-allowed: I...don't think many processors have instructions for manipulating 4-bit quantities, so it would probably only be better at saving memory.
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2020-04-12T00:46:58Z no-defun-allowed: ....which is reasonable because 12! is pretty big.
2020-04-12T00:47:02Z LdBeth: Yes, I'm using it for a permutation quick lookup table
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2020-04-12T01:33:43Z pjb: LdBeth: bit-vectors are vectors of bits (member 0 1).
2020-04-12T01:34:14Z pjb: LdBeth: most implementations also have octet vectors. You can also assume fixnum vectors.
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2020-04-12T01:43:53Z jcowan: there's a case to be made that 1 bit per byte is more performant if you can afford the space
2020-04-12T01:44:04Z jcowan: Java does that for its vectors of booleans
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2020-04-12T01:47:50Z pjb: It really depends on the operation.  CL has a set of bit-* operations that work on whole bit-vectors.  For those operations, packing bits in words is more efficient, both in space and time.
2020-04-12T01:48:05Z pjb: The only operation that is slowed, is aref.
2020-04-12T01:48:18Z pjb: I guess Java only has aref, and no bit-* operation…
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2020-04-12T01:53:39Z jcowan: Yes, I was taking about mutable bitvectors, not integers-as-bitstrings
2020-04-12T01:54:45Z jcowan: But it's not true that aref is the only slow operation: for example "rotate (CL) byte" is not efficient at all with 1 bit per bit
2020-04-12T01:55:34Z jcowan: or if you make it efficient, you have a good many edge cases to get right
2020-04-12T01:57:31Z pjb: jcowan: yes, for integers, CL also has boole and the log- operations.
2020-04-12T01:58:48Z pjb: Again, (rotatef (aref bv 0) (aref bv 1) (aref bv 2) (aref bv 3) (aref bv 4) (aref bv 5) (aref bv 6) (aref bv 7)) can be very efficient in CL (one read, one rotation of the octet, one store).
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2020-04-12T02:01:36Z jcowan: Those are the simple cases.  Try using the constants 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19 instead
2020-04-12T02:03:12Z jcowan: Or as I said rotating or reversing an arbitrary byte.
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2020-04-12T02:06:43Z pjb: jcowan: as long as you use constant indices, it can be optimized at compilation-time.
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2020-04-12T02:13:11Z aeth: The inability to declare something pure (beyond inlining and hoping) is probably one of the biggest weaknesses of CL optimizations. That is, you can have something effectively constant that's not seen as constant, unless you go out of your way to e.g. run it with #.
2020-04-12T02:13:27Z aeth: (or put it in a macro, which is almost always superior to using #.)
2020-04-12T02:14:59Z aeth: A pure FP subset of CL that compiles to CL should be able to beat idiomatic CL in performance in some cases.
2020-04-12T02:17:04Z aeth: A related weakness is that you can have something literal like '(1 2 3 4) and you can see (e.g. with disassemble) the compiler have fun optimizing it within a function, but that's as far as it can go.
2020-04-12T02:17:40Z aeth: (defun foo () (let ((l '(1 2 3 4))) (car l))) ; disassemble this in SBCL and you can see that it returns 2, i.e. 1 with the fixnum tag. and caddr will return 6, i.e. 3 with the fixnum tag.
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2020-04-12T02:20:44Z aeth: The compilation model is also a weakness here. The compiler can't substitute (foo) with 1 (except within the file, which it might do if not notinline!) because FOO can be redefined at any time.
2020-04-12T02:23:17Z aeth: Finding a way to retore multi-file block compilation in SBCL could make a lot of this possible, but without a pure declaration, it would still be pretty easy to accidentally deoptimize your code.
2020-04-12T02:27:59Z aeth: s/retore/restore/
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2020-04-12T03:27:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-12T04:14:30Z akoana: good morning beach!
2020-04-12T04:14:59Z akoana: and good morning everyone!
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2020-04-12T04:37:07Z beach: Hello akoana.
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2020-04-12T04:45:48Z LdBeth: pjb: thanks
2020-04-12T04:47:19Z pjb: LdBeth: in any case, you can always specify a specific element-type for your arrays.  Perhaps the current implementation doesn't optimize it, but the next one will!
2020-04-12T04:48:42Z aeth: pjb: this has been discussed before and some of the element-types people might want (e.g. structs, if someone is used to C/C++/etc.) would be problematic to optimize
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2020-04-12T04:52:29Z pjb: aeth: exactly. In the current implementations.  But in the future it may be different.  And it's a way to document the code.
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2020-04-12T06:57:55Z phoe: morniiiing
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2020-04-12T07:00:21Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2020-04-12T07:09:22Z phoe: Hey beach
2020-04-12T07:09:53Z phoe: I've hit the 50-page milestone on my "article" about the Common Lisp condition system. I guess it's time to start calling it a book instead.
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2020-04-12T07:12:24Z beach: Sounds like it.
2020-04-12T07:13:17Z beach: phoe: I am still very busy.  Now I need to finish reading and assessing the document by Didier Verna, regarding his "habilitation".
2020-04-12T07:16:57Z phoe: beach: no problem, yes.
2020-04-12T07:17:22Z phoe: I'll keep on working on my thing for the time being. There's no rush reviewing it.
2020-04-12T07:17:45Z beach: Thanks!
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2020-04-12T07:19:24Z phoe: It is me who should be the thanking one.
2020-04-12T07:25:53Z aeth: phoe: when you do have a book, you should put it on one of those sites that does low-volume publishing so people can buy it
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2020-04-12T07:26:26Z phoe: aeth: leanpub, yes.
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2020-04-12T08:10:23Z ATuin: hi
2020-04-12T08:11:06Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ATuin
2020-04-12T08:11:33Z ATuin: i'm gettin a strange behaviour with ASDF and stumpwm
2020-04-12T08:11:46Z ATuin: and im quite new to both (also to lisp)
2020-04-12T08:12:17Z jackdaniel: please describe your problem
2020-04-12T08:12:24Z ATuin: ok, i will try
2020-04-12T08:12:29Z ATuin: i install it using guix
2020-04-12T08:12:46Z jackdaniel: fwiw there is also #stumpwm channel
2020-04-12T08:12:51Z ATuin: seems that sbcl was updated at some point to 2.0.3 (dunno if that's the problem or now though)
2020-04-12T08:13:04Z ATuin: yeah i was there, but no clue about the problem
2020-04-12T08:13:15Z ATuin: ok i have a link to the binary
2020-04-12T08:13:38Z ATuin: DISPLAY=:1 /home/atuin/.guix-profile/bin/stumpwm
2020-04-12T08:13:56Z ATuin: running that i can get my stumpwm working (loading slynk usign ASDF)
2020-04-12T08:14:16Z ATuin: DISPLAY=:1 $(readlink /home/atuin/.guix-profile/bin/stumpwm)
2020-04-12T08:14:30Z ATuin: running that it takes like 1-2 minutes to start
2020-04-12T08:14:48Z ATuin: it's stuck when loading a module
2020-04-12T08:14:55Z ATuin: (asdf:load-system :mem) for instance
2020-04-12T08:15:17Z ATuin: then ASDF loads itself (asdf:load-system :asdf) and that takes like 1 or 2 minutes
2020-04-12T08:15:52Z ATuin: looks like a problem with the paths right? since the binary is the same (one the symlink and the other dereferencing)
2020-04-12T08:16:22Z jackdaniel: yes, and that would be probably a packaging issue (i.e guix fault)
2020-04-12T08:16:43Z ATuin: yep, i think the same, but i want to understand the root of the problem so i can fix it
2020-04-12T08:17:09Z ATuin: at which point is using the relative paths, is it ASDF or stumpwm
2020-04-12T08:17:20Z ATuin: since sbcl works fine using symlinks
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2020-04-12T08:17:54Z jackdaniel: maybe asdf can't find .cache/common-lisp
2020-04-12T08:18:01Z ATuin: ahh
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2020-04-12T08:18:13Z jackdaniel: or sbcl cant figure its contrib directory?
2020-04-12T08:18:24Z ATuin: i think sbcl works fine
2020-04-12T08:18:40Z ATuin: i tried both ways of running it and no issues when loading systems
2020-04-12T08:18:54Z ATuin: but the .cache/common-lisp could make sense
2020-04-12T08:19:59Z ATuin: i tried to use (trace) but it does not provide enough info to see exactly what's taking the cpu so busy
2020-04-12T08:20:23Z jackdaniel leaves to celebrate the easter, good luck!
2020-04-12T08:20:36Z ATuin: thanks, and have fun :)
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2020-04-12T09:11:21Z phoe: the syntax inconsistencies between HANDLER-BIND and HANDLER-CASE and between RESTART-BIND and RESTART-CASE are kinda gross now that I think about them
2020-04-12T09:11:42Z phoe: RESTART-BIND accepts :TEST-FUNCTION while RESTART-CASE accepts :TEST
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2020-04-12T09:12:09Z phoe: HANDLER-BIND has a &body that accepts forms to be execused while HANDLER-CASE has a &body that accepts handler definitions
2020-04-12T09:12:18Z phoe: ewwwwww
2020-04-12T09:12:31Z shka_: well, side effect of design by the committee
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2020-04-12T09:13:22Z no-defun-allowed: The committee did care for aesthetics; there's a section for it in every issue writeup.
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2020-04-12T09:14:25Z shka_: yes, but it is very likely that weirdness like above is the result of the backward compatibility requirements
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2020-04-12T09:15:00Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe. Not so much a "committee" problem as a "don't break things" problem then.
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2020-04-12T09:19:22Z Shinmera: phoe: I've never used restart-bind
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2020-04-12T09:22:11Z phoe: Shinmera: I have, and it's fancy
2020-04-12T09:22:36Z phoe: except not actually for restarts that restart actual processes
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2020-04-12T09:31:59Z jackdaniel: phoe: bind is a let specie
2020-04-12T09:32:13Z jackdaniel: case is a specie of well, case
2020-04-12T09:33:11Z jackdaniel: so semantically these oprators are ok when we take their names
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2020-04-12T09:35:47Z phoe: jackdaniel: I'm aware
2020-04-12T09:35:56Z phoe: the disparity is more visible in the restart zone
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2020-04-12T09:36:33Z phoe: restart-bind's :test-function accepts #'foo, but restart-case's :test does not accept #'foo
2020-04-12T09:36:48Z phoe: if I didn't know how CL came to be it would cause me to go "wtf"
2020-04-12T09:37:01Z phoe: and even though I know, the urge to do so is strong in me
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2020-04-12T10:16:04Z phoe: also HANDLER-CASE has :NO-ERROR and RESTART-CASE does not
2020-04-12T10:16:09Z phoe: another eww
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2020-04-12T11:24:40Z phoe: I remember someone mentioning a macro named HANDLER-CASE* which worked exactly like HANDLER-CASE, except the cases were executed before unwinding the stack. Is anyone aware of any existing permissively-licensed implementation of it?
2020-04-12T11:25:15Z phoe: Grepping the c.l.l archives of 1986-2017 did not give me any hits.
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2020-04-12T11:37:34Z phoe: Hmm. I think I'll grab handler-case from CMU CL and modify it.
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2020-04-12T11:45:21Z jackdaniel: I've shared this macro
2020-04-12T11:45:55Z jackdaniel: basically handler-bind in a block + no-error handling
2020-04-12T11:46:18Z jackdaniel: (shared on this channel)
2020-04-12T11:46:25Z phoe: jackdaniel: oh! let me grep the channel logs
2020-04-12T11:48:45Z phoe: hmm, one hit from 2018
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2020-04-12T12:23:34Z eta: why does SBCL use so much dynamic space memory just after it's started?
2020-04-12T12:23:41Z eta: loading it and running (ROOM) results in   50,077,648 bytes for 1,311,232 dynamic objects (space total)
2020-04-12T12:26:07Z p_l: eta: speed vs code size is in play
2020-04-12T12:26:25Z eta: p_l, how so?
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2020-04-12T12:27:21Z _death: it includes the runtime, the compiler, docstrings, caches, libraries, docstrings, etc.
2020-04-12T12:27:27Z p_l: CMUCL (and thus SBCL, which derives from it) compiler is famous for generating fast code. However, the same rules that help it generate fast code mean that it takes more space, due to inlining et al
2020-04-12T12:27:46Z eta: oh wait, dynamic space includes code?
2020-04-12T12:27:50Z p_l: then you have the part where it has to include all the doctstrings etc.
2020-04-12T12:27:52Z p_l: yes
2020-04-12T12:27:55Z eta: what's immobile space for then?
2020-04-12T12:28:17Z p_l: eta: immobile space is the stuff that is, for various reason, "pinned" in memory location
2020-04-12T12:28:40Z p_l: eta: btw, the optimization features? They also take space in terms of compiler code, so you get more space used by compiler, too :)
2020-04-12T12:28:54Z eta: p_l, fair enough; thanks for the explanation! :)
2020-04-12T12:29:17Z p_l: eta: IIRC, try (room t) and it should show you some statistics on object types
2020-04-12T12:29:28Z p_l: though I think SBCL didn't show much detail there
2020-04-12T12:29:28Z eta thinks a heap size of around 90M for their app is more than reasonable
2020-04-12T12:29:52Z p_l: eta: remember to account for virtual memory, too
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2020-04-12T12:30:22Z eta: >   SB-C::COMPILED-DEBUG-FUN            2,399,872 bytes,  37,498 objects.
2020-04-12T12:30:24Z eta: aha
2020-04-12T12:30:40Z p_l: the GC algorithms work better if you have large address space + budget for ~2x the amount of memory used at any particular time (it's a quick approximation, not hard rule)
2020-04-12T12:30:49Z eta: eh, I'll take a memory hit for the ability to remote-debug my app any day :P
2020-04-12T12:31:11Z p_l: eta: compared to some code today, SBCL feels positively small ;)
2020-04-12T12:31:18Z eta: indeed!
2020-04-12T12:31:32Z p_l remembers when people used to complain about VCL's size when compiling binaries with Delphi :/
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2020-04-12T12:37:12Z phoe: nowadays people run whole virtualized OSes to run their tiny apps; compared to this, SBCL footprint feels smol
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2020-04-12T12:46:56Z jcowan: I am trying to solve a problem with involving the CL integer representation of bit sequences, and I can't see how to do it
2020-04-12T12:48:18Z jcowan: Given a list of bit positions, (i j k ...) the representation as an integer is 2^i + 2^j + 2^k + ...; that seems clear.
2020-04-12T12:50:43Z jcowan: Now I have a value n that means "all bits from n to infinity are set", which requires a negative number in the integer representation, i.e. -1 = 0 to infinity, -2 = 1 to infinity, -4 = 2 to infinity, etc.
2020-04-12T12:52:08Z jcowan: How can I combine these such that I get the integer representation of (i j k n (+ n 1) (+ n 2) ...)?  Every time I try to reason it out, I get more confused.
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2020-04-12T12:54:37Z beach: Is it the case that i < j < k < n?
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2020-04-12T12:57:06Z jcowan: We can assume that n > the rest wlg, though the order of i, j, k shouldn't matter, addition being commutative and all.
2020-04-12T12:57:07Z Posterdati: jcowan: you can have a class with a bit array of n bits to store the < n bits positions
2020-04-12T12:57:34Z jcowan: I want to represent them as an integer, since almost all cases will fit into a fixnum.
2020-04-12T12:57:49Z beach: jcowan: Do you want to know how to obtain it in Common Lisp, or do you want some mathematical expression for it?
2020-04-12T12:59:22Z jcowan: Either.
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2020-04-12T13:00:01Z beach: In Common Lisp, you can use LOGIOR and LOGNOT, so if you know how to do n, n+1, n+2, ... then you can OR it with the one for i j k.
2020-04-12T13:00:13Z jcowan: Just so
2020-04-12T13:00:53Z beach: And if you don't know how to do n, n+1, ..., then you can AND it with -1 and the representation for 1, 2, ... n-1.
2020-04-12T13:00:53Z Posterdati: what about over n positions bits?
2020-04-12T13:01:12Z beach: Posterdati: What about them?
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2020-04-12T13:01:23Z Posterdati: is it a bit mask?
2020-04-12T13:01:29Z beach: It is an integer.
2020-04-12T13:01:34Z jcowan: the expression for n+ is evidently 2^n - 1 !
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2020-04-12T13:01:46Z jcowan: whoa, much easier than I thought
2020-04-12T13:01:51Z beach: Good.
2020-04-12T13:02:11Z jcowan: thanks for being the proverbial teddy bear
2020-04-12T13:02:19Z beach: Pleasure.
2020-04-12T13:02:20Z Posterdati: so not an infinite bit mask
2020-04-12T13:02:33Z jcowan: ("explain your problem to the teddy bear: only if that doesn't work can you talk to a human being")
2020-04-12T13:02:36Z beach: Posterdati: A Common Lisp integer is an infinite bit mask.
2020-04-12T13:02:47Z Xach: (dpb 0 (byte n 0) -1)
2020-04-12T13:03:00Z Posterdati: beach: limited to the machine memory...
2020-04-12T13:03:06Z jcowan: .. with either a finite number of 1s or a finite number of 0s
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2020-04-12T13:03:35Z beach: Posterdati: No, -1 is an infinite mask with all 1s in it.  No need for infinite memory.
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2020-04-12T13:03:57Z beach: Posterdati: And 0 is an infinite mask with all 0s in it.  No need for infinite memory.
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2020-04-12T13:05:00Z phoe: you don't need infinite memory to represent an infinite mask
2020-04-12T13:05:31Z phoe: CL does the trick of "hey, these are the bits that actually matter, and lets pretend that all the infinite bits that come later are zero" or "are one"
2020-04-12T13:06:12Z jcowan: Yes, which means (for instance) that you cannot have a bit representation of "all the prime numbers"
2020-04-12T13:06:16Z phoe: that is how all integers in CL are actually treated, unless you are explicitly use modular arithetic
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2020-04-12T13:07:29Z beach: Posterdati: Try (logbitp (expt 2 100) -1)
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2020-04-12T13:10:09Z beach: Posterdati: Then figure out how big a memory you need for (expt 2 100) bits.
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2020-04-12T13:18:38Z beach: Posterdati: Did that make sense to you?
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2020-04-12T13:24:10Z Posterdati: I asked about the problem not about CL integers :)
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2020-04-12T13:29:21Z beach: Fine.
2020-04-12T13:29:51Z beach: That should teach me to try to explain something.
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2020-04-12T13:44:37Z phoe: CLHS COMPUTE-RESTARTS says:
2020-04-12T13:44:44Z phoe: > When condition is non-nil, only those restarts are considered that are either explicitly associated with that condition, or not associated with any condition; (...) If condition is nil, all restarts are considered.
2020-04-12T13:45:06Z phoe: What should (restart-bind ((foo (lambda () 42) :test-function (constantly nil))) (print (find-restart 'foo)) nil) print?
2020-04-12T13:45:59Z phoe: Or rather
2020-04-12T13:46:21Z phoe: What should (restart-bind ((foo (lambda () 42) :test-function (constantly nil))) (print (compute-restarts)) nil) print? Will the printed list contain restart FOO?
2020-04-12T13:48:16Z phoe: Or did I mix restart tests and association between restarts and condition objects?
2020-04-12T13:49:23Z phoe: I think I did.
2020-04-12T13:50:54Z phoe: This stuff is so wonderfully complex...
2020-04-12T13:51:11Z Posterdati: beach: I asked about the problem, not CL, sorry :)
2020-04-12T13:51:34Z splittist: phoe: I'm waiting for the book... (:
2020-04-12T13:51:47Z phoe: splittist: so am I
2020-04-12T13:51:53Z phoe: it's 60 A4 pages right now
2020-04-12T13:51:56Z phoe: ...and still growing
2020-04-12T13:52:03Z beach: <Posterdati> beach: limited to the machine memory...
2020-04-12T13:54:31Z phoe: splittist: the offer is still there if you want to review the WIP
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2020-04-12T14:02:02Z Posterdati: beach: this is written in the specs about integers
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2020-04-12T14:07:59Z Bike: phoe: well, i learned something today. i didn't think the tests factored in if no condition was provided to compute-restarts, but based on the glossary entry "applicable restarts" and 9.1.4.2.3, the tests are just called with NIL
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2020-04-12T14:08:30Z Bike: so you can have a restart that's never applicable if a specific condition is given. i wonder if that could ever be good for anything. doesn't seem like it.
2020-04-12T14:08:45Z Bike: also, i tried your example but thought "why bother with the print" and got an unhandled memory fault and it took me a sec to understand why
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2020-04-12T14:09:03Z phoe: Bike: I laughed at that last part
2020-04-12T14:09:17Z phoe: also, yes - you can have a restart that is never applicable if a specific condition is given, that is the whole point
2020-04-12T14:09:35Z phoe: from what I've read, it is only the case when you are dealing with a nested debugger and have therefore multiple conditions being handled in the dynamic scope
2020-04-12T14:09:57Z Bike: but when a debugger computes restarts it probably passes the condition.
2020-04-12T14:09:59Z phoe: if you try to handle error A and this results in signaling error B, you probably don't want to see A-related restarts in your debugger
2020-04-12T14:10:02Z phoe: yes
2020-04-12T14:10:05Z phoe: that's what I have inferred
2020-04-12T14:10:21Z phoe: so when it computes restarts for condition B, it passes condition B there
2020-04-12T14:10:40Z phoe: so, if any restarts are associated with A, they are not visible in (compute-restarts B)
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2020-04-12T14:10:44Z Bike: you can add to your inference the hearsay that i have written a debugger and that is what it does
2020-04-12T14:10:47Z phoe: at least that is what I understood
2020-04-12T14:10:57Z phoe: yay!
2020-04-12T14:11:04Z phoe: still, I learn new and new things
2020-04-12T14:11:07Z Bike: yes, you're correct. But this is about not passing a condition at all.
2020-04-12T14:11:24Z phoe: the most important one: the test function and association are *separate* and accounted for separately
2020-04-12T14:11:37Z phoe: therefore the restart can be associated with the proper condition, but its test function may still return NIL
2020-04-12T14:11:41Z phoe: and boom, that restart is invisible
2020-04-12T14:11:51Z phoe: if no condition is passed, then the test function needs to deal with that fact
2020-04-12T14:12:09Z phoe: ...and it may still return NIL, for instance, when (= 0 (random 2))
2020-04-12T14:12:10Z Bike: the association is also dynamic, so in two different dynamic extents calling compute-restarts with the same condition can give you different answers.
2020-04-12T14:12:18Z phoe: yes, that's correct
2020-04-12T14:12:38Z Bike: and yes, i understand how this no-condition test works, i'm just failing to think of a practical scenario in which you'd ever want to do this.
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2020-04-12T14:12:49Z phoe: you can rebind dynamic variables between two invocations of (compute-restarts condition) and the test function for the restarts can take the current values of these dynavars into account
2020-04-12T14:13:22Z phoe: Bike: I have found a use case for that - some restarts are only available if the dynamic environment permits them at the moment
2020-04-12T14:13:48Z phoe: like, you don't want to call restart USE-FOO-INSTEAD if the dynamic variable *FOO* that houses the FOO that you are supposed to use is bound to NIL
2020-04-12T14:13:56Z phoe: you don't want that restart to even be visible
2020-04-12T14:14:06Z Bike: that's fine but i don't see how that's what i'm talking about
2020-04-12T14:14:14Z phoe: oh! what are you talking about then?
2020-04-12T14:14:19Z phoe: I misunderstood the no-condition test then
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2020-04-12T14:14:54Z Bike: i'm talking about distinguishing (compute-restarts) from (compute-restarts condition) in such a way that the restart test would specifically want to know that the former and not the latter was done
2020-04-12T14:15:08Z Bike: for example, given my debugger, you could make a restart that was never visible to the debugger
2020-04-12T14:15:22Z Bike: with a test of (lambda (c) (not c))
2020-04-12T14:15:29Z Bike: or well, just #'not i suppose
2020-04-12T14:15:30Z phoe: this is useful if you have restarts that don't perform a NLToC
2020-04-12T14:15:44Z phoe: you usually never want to have them visible in the debugger, since they don't get you out of it
2020-04-12T14:15:50Z Bike: okay, well, question two, why would you want restarts that don't perform an NLToC. i have never seen restart-bind in actual code
2020-04-12T14:16:02Z phoe: that's what I'm fixing in my book right now~
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2020-04-12T14:16:36Z Bike: by next week you'll have figured out how to use restarts to implement delimited continuations
2020-04-12T14:16:43Z beach: Posterdati: Thank you for confirming that I need to work on my teaching skills.
2020-04-12T14:16:52Z phoe: Bike: call/cc via restarts in two weeks, I promise
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2020-04-12T14:19:32Z Posterdati: beach: wasn't my intention, you were right about numbers, but I asked about the specific problem :)
2020-04-12T14:19:34Z Bike: https://github.com/clasp-developers/clasp/blob/dev/src/lisp/kernel/lsp/top.lsp#L1054 htere's where clasp's debugger computes restarts, for reference
2020-04-12T14:20:15Z phoe: also posting this here so I have something to search for later: an implementation of handler-case* https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1740#1740
2020-04-12T14:20:22Z phoe: seems not buggy from the little I've tested it
2020-04-12T14:21:01Z phoe: Bike: yes, I see
2020-04-12T14:22:18Z Bike: you don't need the return-from in the handler-bind, do you?
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2020-04-12T14:22:26Z phoe: which line?
2020-04-12T14:22:29Z Bike: 34
2020-04-12T14:22:37Z beach: Posterdati: No, you didn't ask, but you objected to an integer being an infinite bit mask, claiming that it is limited to available memory, and I showed with an example that you can check a bit way outside available memory, but since my explanation did not seem to make sense to you, it is clear that my teaching skills need improving.
2020-04-12T14:23:09Z phoe: Bike: yes, seems to - let me edit
2020-04-12T14:23:29Z Bike: i mean, it's hrmless, just making sure i udnerstand
2020-04-12T14:24:23Z phoe: Bike: this is modified CMU CL code, so it's possible it's a bit dirty in other places
2020-04-12T14:26:07Z phoe: I was unable to find jackdaniel's code so I decided to grab CMUCL's handler-case and smash it with a rock until it looked (hopefully) nice and clean enough to the eye
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2020-04-12T14:42:15Z Posterdati: beach: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/numbers.html
2020-04-12T14:42:46Z Posterdati: beach: Common Lisp provides a true integer type, called bignum, limited only by the total memory available (not the machine word size).
2020-04-12T14:43:01Z phoe: Posterdati: this is orthogonal to what beach was talking about
2020-04-12T14:43:03Z Posterdati: beach: I was referring to that
2020-04-12T14:43:13Z beach: I give up.
2020-04-12T14:43:17Z phoe: you are talking about the important bits while beach was talking about the non-important bits
2020-04-12T14:43:21Z Posterdati: phoe: no one stated against it
2020-04-12T14:43:33Z Posterdati: phoe: ok!
2020-04-12T14:43:42Z phoe: I think beach is well aware that the important bits are only limited by the memory that can store them
2020-04-12T14:43:53Z phoe: but the *trailing* bits aren't bounded like that
2020-04-12T14:44:00Z Posterdati: phoe: ok ok I understand now!
2020-04-12T14:44:17Z phoe: we can always say "let's pretend there's an infinite number of zeroes after these defined bits" and that is exactly what CL does almost everywhere
2020-04-12T14:44:21Z Posterdati: phoe: I didn't understand about > n bits positions
2020-04-12T14:44:41Z phoe: these N bits in this case are the significant bits, and these need to fit in memory, yes.
2020-04-12T14:44:49Z phoe: all the other ones, we can just pretend they fit. (;
2020-04-12T14:44:58Z Posterdati: beach: you cannot be a good teacher without patience :)
2020-04-12T14:45:56Z Posterdati: phoe: he stated from n to ininity which is not the case, we can hope that he can store a finite number of bits about position n...
2020-04-12T14:46:18Z phoe: Posterdati: actually, yes, from n to infinity
2020-04-12T14:46:45Z phoe: if your integer has N significant bits, then bits N+1, N+2, N+3, N+4, ..., N+inf are all the same
2020-04-12T14:46:50Z Posterdati: that's was my point... I didn't realize that beach was talking about the 0 to n-1 bits :)
2020-04-12T14:46:52Z phoe: and these are the bits that we pretend we know about
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2020-04-12T14:47:26Z Posterdati: phoe: now it is easy to reppresent those kind of numbers!
2020-04-12T14:48:10Z Posterdati: phoe: you can even extend bit-array
2020-04-12T14:48:32Z beach: *sigh*
2020-04-12T14:49:57Z phoe: extending bit arrays is very, very implementation dependent
2020-04-12T14:50:09Z phoe: which means that usually you cannot do it
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2020-04-12T14:52:30Z Posterdati: phoe: I mean you can write a new class
2020-04-12T14:53:11Z Posterdati: not properly extend bit-array
2020-04-12T14:53:13Z phoe: but that class won't be a subclass of INTEGER or BIT-ARRAY
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2020-04-12T14:53:42Z phoe: and will also likely be slow
2020-04-12T14:53:54Z Posterdati: phoe: that's true
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2020-04-12T15:34:27Z Xach: hmm, rfc3339-timestamp and rpc4cl have disappeared from gitlab.
2020-04-12T15:36:32Z Xach emails author
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2020-04-12T15:44:02Z Xach: Wow, that was quick. The author says he has abandoned them due to lack of interest from users and himself.
2020-04-12T15:45:15Z phoe: Xach: does he have old versions? he could reupload them somewhere and wait for a maintainer.
2020-04-12T15:46:14Z Xach: I have old versions, but if the author has abandoned them due to lack of interest, I don't think it is good to ask them to do more work with them.
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2020-04-12T15:46:36Z phoe: ooh - even better
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2020-04-12T15:46:44Z phoe: *we* could reupload them somewhere and wait for a maintainer
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2020-04-12T15:46:54Z phoe: how many Quicklisp projects are affected by the disappearance?
2020-04-12T15:46:57Z Xach: I will remove them from Quicklisp, and if anyone notices and cares, I will put them on sharplispers.
2020-04-12T15:47:05Z Xach: Two - rfc3339-timestamp and rpc4cl.
2020-04-12T15:47:14Z phoe: oh! no one depends on them?
2020-04-12T15:47:18Z Xach: Nope.
2020-04-12T15:47:24Z phoe: in that case removing them from QL sounds like a decent idea
2020-04-12T15:47:35Z Xach: Not in quicklisp, anyway. there's no easy way to tell if others use them.
2020-04-12T15:47:45Z phoe: we'll find that one out
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2020-04-12T15:56:43Z Xach: I keep a cached checkout of all vcs projects for building Quicklisp dists, so sometimes a project can disappear from its host for a long time before I notice
2020-04-12T15:57:03Z Xach: I'm going to be more systematic about fetching from the primary source every so often to detect problems with missing or moved projects.
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2020-04-12T16:57:48Z jcowan: aeth: You asked about alists vs. plists: see http://funcall.blogspot.com/2013/07/alist-or-plist.html by Joe Marshall
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2020-04-12T17:00:17Z jcowan: Actually, bignums may not be limited solely by memory: that was written before machine memories grew so big
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2020-04-12T17:06:39Z jcowan: libgmp allows a maximum of 2^2^39, because the number of 64-bit limbs is bounded by a 32-bit signed value.
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2020-04-12T17:26:33Z Xach: https://www.jwz.org/blog/2008/03/most-positive-bignum/
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2020-04-12T17:29:14Z eta: aha, a classic
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2020-04-12T19:01:09Z LdBeth: well, 12 years age
2020-04-12T19:01:31Z phoe: I bet we can go bigger nowadays
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2020-04-12T20:00:09Z aeth: jcowan: interesting trick about priority, I didn't know that
2020-04-12T20:00:46Z aeth: (defun foo (&key foo) foo) (foo :foo 42 :foo 43) => 42
2020-04-12T20:01:17Z Bike: yeah, that's useful for APPLYing stuff.
2020-04-12T20:01:34Z aeth: right, (let ((l (list :foo 43))) (apply #'foo (list* :foo 42 l)))
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2020-04-12T20:02:57Z aeth: well, the article used something like `(:foo 42 ,@args)
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2020-04-12T20:06:36Z phoe: that's equivalent
2020-04-12T20:06:45Z aeth: yes
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2020-04-12T21:38:35Z phoe: when I work with slime-company, I get a string like "-f------" that tells me that a given symbol is bound in the function namespace
2020-04-12T21:38:48Z phoe: where is that code part defined? I can't see it in slime-company itself
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2020-04-12T21:46:39Z phoe: found it, swank::symbol-classification-string
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2020-04-12T22:27:28Z conjunctive: Hi, what's the best method for function aliasing? The following gives Quicklisp warnings: (setf (fdefinition '@) #'fset:lookup)
2020-04-12T22:29:19Z phoe: conjunctive: quicklisp warnings?
2020-04-12T22:31:07Z conjunctive: (ql:quickload :zip :verbose t) => ... ;; caught STYLE-WARNING: undefined function: ZIP::@
2020-04-12T22:31:48Z conjunctive: There's a warning for every use of the aliased function
2020-04-12T22:32:37Z phoe: try instead doing (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (setf (fdefinition '@) #'fset:lookup))
2020-04-12T22:32:48Z phoe: that should fix the warning
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2020-04-12T22:34:39Z conjunctive: Thank you, phoe!
2020-04-12T22:34:48Z phoe: <3
2020-04-12T22:34:59Z phoe: basically, you need the fdefinition to be available at compile time
2020-04-12T22:35:09Z phoe: this eval-when makes it available there.
2020-04-12T22:35:28Z phoe: otherwise, compile-time warnings happen, because the compiler has no idea that things will even out at runtime.
2020-04-12T22:35:56Z phoe: also, these are not Quicklisp warnings - they are ASDF warnings, or rather, warnings that result from file-compiling your code.
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2020-04-12T23:04:02Z Xach: conjunctive: is zip the name of your project?
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2020-04-12T23:10:18Z White_Flame: conjunctive: I use define-symbol-macro for punning a function name globally
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2020-04-12T23:11:24Z White_Flame: it doesn't monkey around much with such early time dependencies
2020-04-12T23:11:24Z Xach: White_Flame: how?
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2020-04-12T23:12:25Z White_Flame: oh, I just looked at my uses, and those were funcalled things
2020-04-12T23:13:46Z Inline: all of a sudden i have generic functions defined in an earlier package with arguments depending on another package which comes later in the packages.list file not being able to find applicable method therein
2020-04-12T23:14:11Z Inline: wth
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2020-04-13T02:23:39Z LdBeth: cannot parse the sentence
2020-04-13T02:25:08Z LdBeth: well, yes, CL isn't Haskell, the order of definitions occurred in files does matter
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2020-04-13T02:38:17Z Inline: what about the overloading of the same symbol name from different packages whilst they are using other packages via :use directive in their package definition
2020-04-13T02:38:32Z Inline: that's just catastrophic
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2020-04-13T02:40:18Z Inline: i have #:buffer as defclass, as defgeneric (both explicit and implicit via :reader,:writer and :accessor), as defmethod (the same).... the list goes on and on
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2020-04-13T03:01:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-04-13T03:01:47Z pjb: Inline: you can intern those symbols in a different package before uninterning them.
2020-04-13T03:02:19Z pjb: Inline: or keep them in a list.  Or just scan them from the objects.  They're not lost.  If they were, they'd be collected!
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2020-04-13T03:06:21Z Inline: ?
2020-04-13T03:07:29Z Bike: morning is the part of the day soon after the rising of the sun, inline
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2020-04-13T03:09:22Z Inline: am i allowed to refer to class slots as if they were struct slots ? like in struct-name-struct-sloss converted to class-name-class-slot ?
2020-04-13T03:09:38Z Inline: sorry for the typo
2020-04-13T03:10:19Z beach: Inline: Only if you define that name as an accessor.
2020-04-13T03:10:33Z Inline: hmmm
2020-04-13T03:10:34Z no-defun-allowed: If you define a accessor for the slot with that name, yes.
2020-04-13T03:10:42Z Inline: reader too ? or writer ?
2020-04-13T03:11:41Z no-defun-allowed: :accessor foo defines a function that can be called with (foo <instance>) and another that can be called with (setf (foo <instance>) <new-value>).
2020-04-13T03:11:44Z beach: Inline: If you say :accessor <mumble>, then that is the same as saying :reader <mumble> :writer (setf <mumble>)
2020-04-13T03:12:17Z Inline: alright thank you
2020-04-13T03:12:57Z Inline: i'm not sure what's up here, but i'm getting lots of errors in mcclim and also climacs as a result
2020-04-13T03:14:15Z beach: You need to show the errors.
2020-04-13T03:16:39Z pjb: Inline: also, clim doesn't use CL:DEFCLASS, but CLIM:DEFCLASS, so be sure to use the right one.
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2020-04-13T03:20:33Z Inline: okayy
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2020-04-13T03:21:59Z beach: Inline: It is easy to get confused if you do :USE in DEFPACKAGE too much.  I :USE only the CL package and stick explicit package prefixes on other symbols when necessary.  That way, I avoid many problems like the one you seem to have.
2020-04-13T03:23:16Z Inline: well, the problem is in the defpackage forms in mcclim
2020-04-13T03:23:46Z beach: Oh?  How does that problem manifest itself?
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2020-04-13T03:28:24Z Inline: i can't use clim-listener for example, when i press any key i get thrown into the debugger with various error messages
2020-04-13T03:28:46Z Inline: usually of the sort no-applicable-method errors
2020-04-13T03:29:25Z beach: So this is a different problem from you previous one.
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2020-04-13T04:06:14Z pjb: Inline: be sure to (:use "CLIM") and not (:use "CL"). You're not writing a common lisp program, you're writing a CLIM program!
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2020-04-13T04:25:45Z beach: pjb: I think it is CLIM-LISP.
2020-04-13T04:25:47Z adlai is considering exploring NLP as a hiatus from other projects; has anyone here got insights and/or experience with the various CL libraries for this?
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2020-04-13T04:28:50Z adlai: e.g., are there relevant existing libraries other than those listed in https://www.cliki.net/Natural%20Language%20Processing ?
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2020-04-13T04:41:56Z ebrasca: Morning!
2020-04-13T04:42:17Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
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2020-04-13T04:46:51Z ebrasca: beach: How are you doing?
2020-04-13T04:50:24Z beach: ebrasca: Yesterday, I finished reading Didier Verna's "habilitation" document, mostly about Common Lisp.  Today, I'll work on my report for his defense.  I also need to start thinking about my slides for the ELS papers.  And I have a nasty problem to debug in my SICL bootstrapping procedure.  In SBCL, I run out of bind stack, and I don't know how to debug that.
2020-04-13T04:50:28Z beach: ebrasca: You?
2020-04-13T04:55:00Z ebrasca: beach: My cat just died last die. I back to work with FSs for mezzano. I am probably fine.
2020-04-13T04:57:23Z no-defun-allowed: RIP ebrasca's cat
2020-04-13T04:57:39Z beach: Sorry to hear about the cat.  Good luck with Mezzano.
2020-04-13T05:03:48Z pjb: Happily, cats reproduce like rabbits, you won't have any difficulty to procure a new one.
2020-04-13T05:05:31Z ebrasca: pjb: It take time to tech them and I like cats.
2020-04-13T05:06:07Z pjb: ebrasca: perhaps you'd prefer to pet an elephant or a turtle.  They outlive us…
2020-04-13T05:07:12Z ebrasca: 1 to big , 2 to slow
2020-04-13T05:07:48Z pjb: Yes, we should breed dwarf elephants.  But don't believe turtles are always slow…
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2020-04-13T05:09:53Z pjb: ebrasca: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg4FiyzrDSc
2020-04-13T05:09:58Z adlai once saw a snapping turtle run, those things could easily catch an old cat
2020-04-13T05:10:14Z pjb: ebrasca: or: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jk01HfdTaY
2020-04-13T05:10:27Z adlai: strictly speaking they do not run since they maintain multiple points of contact with the ground at all times; still, they move quite fast
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2020-04-13T05:29:26Z beach: adlai: phoe was working on a spell checker, but I don't know how far he got.  I have always wanted a spell checker that returns all possible candidates for a word, including the word category, and information such as singular/plural present/past tense, etc.
2020-04-13T05:29:41Z beach: Such a thing could be used both for spell checkers and grammar checkers.
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2020-04-13T05:31:33Z adlai: what you probably wanted is one that searches up to a hamming bound, rather than ~all~ possible candidates...
2020-04-13T05:31:54Z beach: Oh, I didn't mean all possible candidates for a misspelled word.
2020-04-13T05:31:58Z adlai: otherwise dog is a typo for cat :)
2020-04-13T05:32:03Z beach: I mean for a correctly spelled word.
2020-04-13T05:32:45Z beach: But you are right.  For misspelled words, you have to limit the distance.
2020-04-13T05:33:17Z adlai: by candidates for a correctly spelled word, you mean the anticipated typos when someone meant to type that word?
2020-04-13T05:33:38Z beach: No.  Let me give you an example...
2020-04-13T05:34:17Z beach: I type "flies".  I want both (noun, plural) and (verb third-person singular).
2020-04-13T05:36:06Z adlai: ok, thanks for the example; that's quite outside what i imagined when you write "spell checker"; the colloquiallism that i remember my classics teachers using to describe this is "gloss"
2020-04-13T05:36:47Z beach: Sure, you also need possible corrections for misspelled words.
2020-04-13T05:36:49Z adlai: where "gloss" is a verb, and the similarity to the noun "glossary" is a very false friend
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2020-04-13T05:45:55Z vms14: http://termbin.com/vq4a
2020-04-13T05:46:00Z vms14: what's wrong?
2020-04-13T05:46:16Z vms14: I'm trying to implement something like the js setTimeout
2020-04-13T05:46:38Z vms14: I just maintain a list of symbols which have :code and :time properties
2020-04-13T05:47:03Z no-defun-allowed: What is setp? set property?
2020-04-13T05:47:30Z vms14: oh, lol
2020-04-13T05:47:37Z vms14: I've put the < wrong
2020-04-13T05:47:52Z no-defun-allowed: Ouch, I've done that before with times.
2020-04-13T05:48:06Z vms14: setp is (defun setp (symbol property value) (setf (get symbol property) value)
2020-04-13T05:48:48Z vms14: meh, isn't working
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2020-04-13T05:54:18Z vms14: the time was wrong
2020-04-13T05:58:54Z pjb: vms14: what's wrong with defstruct or defclass?
2020-04-13T05:59:12Z vms14: nothing I guess, I just like symbols
2020-04-13T05:59:19Z pjb: ok.
2020-04-13T05:59:39Z vms14: but in terms of performance, is better to use defstruct?
2020-04-13T06:00:00Z vms14: I like to think symbols are cheap
2020-04-13T06:00:12Z no-defun-allowed: DEFSTRUCT is faster, but DEFCLASS is less likely to be annoying if you want to update your definitions.
2020-04-13T06:00:50Z pjb: In terms of code clarity, defstruct would be better.
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2020-04-13T06:01:04Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, if you use properties on a symbol, those are stored on a property list, which is O(n) to access. Reading slots of a structure-instance or standard-instance (which are created from structures and classes, respectively) would be O(1).
2020-04-13T06:01:09Z vms14: I'll use defclass for stuff like the player, enemies or alike I hope
2020-04-13T06:01:36Z vms14: oh
2020-04-13T06:01:51Z vms14: then I have no excuse to not use defstruct
2020-04-13T06:02:58Z adlai: there's always an excuse not to use defstruct
2020-04-13T06:03:11Z vms14: adlai: defclass?
2020-04-13T06:03:35Z vms14: anyway I can't say I'm really worrying about performance
2020-04-13T06:03:55Z vms14: I'm sending code to perl and waiting for the result, and even made this
2020-04-13T06:04:08Z vms14: (defmacro async-eval (&body code)
2020-04-13T06:04:08Z vms14:   (lambda ()
2020-04-13T06:04:08Z vms14:     (when (car code)
2020-04-13T06:04:08Z vms14:       (eval (car code))
2020-04-13T06:04:09Z adlai: optimization mature enough to want something that is not structured the way defstruct offers, yet immature enough to use defclass+nonstandard-object
2020-04-13T06:04:11Z vms14:       (setf code (cdr code)))))
2020-04-13T06:05:23Z adlai hands vms14 a backquote and a bunch of commas
2020-04-13T06:06:35Z pjb: vms14: https://termbin.com/k5v1
2020-04-13T06:06:48Z adlai: use them wisely; and if you need another backquote, before you're done with this one, then may the angels have mercy on your soul
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2020-04-13T06:13:38Z vms14: pjb: thanks, much nicer
2020-04-13T06:13:53Z vms14: adlai: thanks for the ` and , also :D
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2020-04-13T06:39:43Z vms14: it's weird, works fine until I have a loop
2020-04-13T06:40:15Z no-defun-allowed: ebrasca, pjb: <https://youtu.be/AkukqriuvIM?t=55> "Watch a cat! It's an amazing animal..."
2020-04-13T06:40:23Z no-defun-allowed: vms14: What are you trying to do with async-eval?
2020-04-13T06:41:55Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: atm nothing, but for later, divide code in pieces, so the main loop can go executing that code without being blocked
2020-04-13T06:42:22Z vms14: like when you make a ball movement from one direction to another, the main loop needs to update that ball bit a bit
2020-04-13T06:42:39Z vms14: I want to just code the movement and let it being divided by pieces
2020-04-13T06:43:05Z vms14: so async-eval creates a closure that when called will execute only one sexp
2020-04-13T06:43:10Z vms14: and return nil once finishes
2020-04-13T06:43:17Z no-defun-allowed: Right, you're trying to implement asynchronous evaluation. What's the plan then? Do you want a closure that will run one form at a time?
2020-04-13T06:43:24Z vms14: yes
2020-04-13T06:43:40Z vms14: a list of those closures
2020-04-13T06:44:05Z vms14: so the main loop will iterate on them and eval only a sexp for everyone, then do other stuff
2020-04-13T06:44:08Z no-defun-allowed: So, async-eval should produce a list of closures, one for each form?
2020-04-13T06:44:25Z vms14: will only produce one closure with the code attached
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2020-04-13T06:44:50Z vms14: like (defparameter code (async-eval (print "something") (print "more")))
2020-04-13T06:45:14Z vms14: (funcall code) ; "something" (funcall code) ; "more"
2020-04-13T06:45:39Z vms14: I'm looking for a better way to implement that
2020-04-13T06:45:46Z vms14: so if you have any hint will be nice
2020-04-13T06:45:47Z no-defun-allowed: Right. I would try to transform (asynchronously e1 e2 ... en) into (let ((counter 0)) (lambda () (incf counter) (case counter (1 e1) (2 e2) ... (n en))))
2020-04-13T06:46:12Z vms14: why?
2020-04-13T06:47:29Z vms14: then I need a macro to generate the case forms depending on the number of sexp the closure will have
2020-04-13T06:47:33Z no-defun-allowed: That would implement your form without using EVAL, which isn't necessary (and is very, very necessary when macro writing).
2020-04-13T06:47:37Z vms14: which should be easy
2020-04-13T06:47:51Z vms14: thanks, I wanted to avoid the eval
2020-04-13T06:48:54Z vms14: I'll work on that
2020-04-13T06:50:06Z no-defun-allowed: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1741 is my implementation of that; but you might want to figure that out for yourself.
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2020-04-13T06:54:47Z vms14: thanks again, I was making a different macro just to generate the case form
2020-04-13T06:59:34Z vms14: don't get why you use with gensyms
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2020-04-13T07:00:34Z vms14: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1742#1742 seems to work
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2020-04-13T07:01:49Z no-defun-allowed: The client code shouldn't be able to see the counter, so I use an uninterned symbol created by GENSYM to create a variable it won't be able to access.
2020-04-13T07:02:03Z LdBeth: adlai: there're several algorithms that requires a Connect Machine or its simulator
2020-04-13T07:02:29Z vms14: oh, you're trying to avoid variable capture bugs
2020-04-13T07:02:31Z vms14: nice
2020-04-13T07:03:18Z adlai: LdBeth: that sounds more complex than what I seek
2020-04-13T07:03:40Z adlai: although, why would an algorithm care about the machine?
2020-04-13T07:04:25Z p_l: feasibility of given algorithm to be efficient solution to a problem depends on the underlying architecture's broad strokes
2020-04-13T07:05:45Z LdBeth: adlai: because it's about SIMD style processing, before GPU was available
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2020-04-13T07:07:28Z p_l: beach: huh, I thought that "habilitation" was pretty much nonexistant in the west
2020-04-13T07:07:28Z vms14: I've put weird names no one never will use
2020-04-13T07:07:41Z vms14: async-code-counter-for-case
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2020-04-13T07:13:55Z beach: p_l: I don't think there is a single "west" system.
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2020-04-13T07:15:27Z p_l: I'm aware, but even discounting Bologna Process, "habilitation" doesn't seem to show up often when looking "to the west"
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2020-04-13T07:16:10Z p_l: (in Poland, it's a critical step on the road to being a professor)
2020-04-13T07:16:21Z beach: Here too.  Though not a strict requirement.
2020-04-13T07:16:34Z beach: In practice it is mandatory.
2020-04-13T07:17:32Z p_l: Ah
2020-04-13T07:18:06Z p_l: In Poland, habilitation is generally required to lead independent research team
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2020-04-13T07:18:28Z beach: That's the exact definition of it here.
2020-04-13T07:18:35Z p_l: And I don't think you can become even "extraordinary" (lower rank) professor without it
2020-04-13T07:19:42Z p_l: For ordinary professor (Higher rank than extraordinary) it's mandatory
2020-04-13T07:19:51Z beach: The full name of the title translates to "authorization to direct research".
2020-04-13T07:20:02Z adlai: if you habilitate at one campus, take a job at another campus, and then return to the first, do you need rehabilitation?
2020-04-13T07:20:26Z beach: adlai: It's a national title, so no.
2020-04-13T07:20:40Z p_l: adlai: not in Poland, habilitation is part of your doctoral title
2020-04-13T07:21:04Z p_l: That's the difference between "extraordinary" and "ordinary" professor in Poland
2020-04-13T07:21:05Z adlai: oh it's just part of your doctoral work?
2020-04-13T07:21:15Z adlai mentally equated this to 'postdoc'
2020-04-13T07:21:47Z beach: adlai: Not here.  It takes many years of experience and an additional document to write after the PhD.
2020-04-13T07:22:02Z p_l: The naming comes from how a specific institution can "extraordinarily" name you a professor, but it can strip it and the title doesn't transfer
2020-04-13T07:22:37Z p_l: An "ordinary professor" in Poland has national title unrelated current employment
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2020-04-13T07:22:58Z jackdaniel: how is it related to the channel topic?
2020-04-13T07:23:11Z beach: Didier Verna is the relation.
2020-04-13T07:23:22Z beach: But I think we have exhausted that one.
2020-04-13T07:24:12Z jackdaniel: uhm
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2020-04-13T07:31:27Z vms14: oh, just discovered (get-internal-run-time) will print a time depending on the statements executing
2020-04-13T07:31:44Z vms14: that's why my shit was behaving wrong in a loop
2020-04-13T07:31:56Z vms14: it just went faster XD
2020-04-13T07:32:06Z vms14: so I'll use get-internal-real-time
2020-04-13T07:32:26Z vms14: also pjb in your example I saw get-whatever-seconds function
2020-04-13T07:32:38Z vms14: but tried to use it and didn't exist
2020-04-13T07:34:21Z vms14: oh, wasn't a function
2020-04-13T07:34:23Z vms14: internal-time-units-per-second
2020-04-13T07:35:16Z vms14: why did you use that, will change between implementations?
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2020-04-13T07:38:37Z vms14: now works fine :D
2020-04-13T07:39:13Z vms14: thanks to all for helping me and giving me hints, specially you no-defun-allowed you improved my shit a lot and now I don't need to use eval
2020-04-13T07:40:14Z no-defun-allowed: All good.
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2020-04-13T09:40:14Z adlai: phoe: here is an example of with-simple-restart, for your condition system guide: https://github.com/adlai/event-emitter/blob/master/src/event-emitter.lisp#L35-L38
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2020-04-13T09:43:25Z phoe: adlai: thanks!
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2020-04-13T12:37:39Z z0d: https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/1056786.1056787
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2020-04-13T12:38:09Z z0d: via Rainer
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2020-04-13T13:45:24Z phoe: whole two pages
2020-04-13T13:45:29Z phoe: still, nice
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2020-04-13T14:38:40Z _death: some slime trivia & rms "suggestion" in emacs-devel...
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2020-04-13T14:41:08Z beach: _death: Link?
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2020-04-13T14:45:17Z phoe: Yes, link please
2020-04-13T14:45:28Z axion: Presumably https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-04/msg00627.html
2020-04-13T14:46:39Z phoe: rms complaining that "slime" is a bad name
2020-04-13T14:46:48Z phoe: what a curious time to live in
2020-04-13T14:47:42Z _death: guess he's not aware of the consequences of this name change.. in any case, he seems optimistic about the future of CL if it's "not too late" :)
2020-04-13T14:48:16Z phoe: haha
2020-04-13T14:48:43Z drainful: I didn't know SLIME was a backronym
2020-04-13T14:50:29Z beach: _death: I don't see any of that in the link that was posted.
2020-04-13T14:50:49Z beach: Oh, "not too late" I see it.
2020-04-13T14:50:49Z drainful: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-04/msg00694.html
2020-04-13T14:50:51Z _death: beach: check out the rest of the thread
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2020-04-13T14:51:40Z beach: I was kind of expecting more words from rms, given the reaction here.
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2020-04-13T14:52:09Z beach: Storm in a teacup.
2020-04-13T14:52:32Z _death: the value of this discussion so far is mostly in the slime trivia
2020-04-13T14:54:30Z beach: Got it.  Thanks.
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2020-04-13T15:39:49Z mason: It'd be disappointing if it were given a boring new name.
2020-04-13T15:43:56Z Grue`: I can think of some GNU projects with worse names...
2020-04-13T15:44:51Z travv0: gnu itself is a worse name
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2020-04-13T15:50:04Z vms14: https://termbin.com/k1zt
2020-04-13T15:50:10Z vms14: this is what I have now
2020-04-13T15:50:38Z vms14: I'm kinda happy with that, but I guess I should change those two "remove" functions to only one
2020-04-13T15:53:36Z phoe: vms14: I'd get rid of EVAL
2020-04-13T15:53:48Z phoe: and replace "code" with actual pre-compiled function objects
2020-04-13T15:53:50Z vms14: phoe: we did
2020-04-13T15:53:51Z phoe: could be anonymous ones
2020-04-13T15:53:55Z phoe: no, you didn't
2020-04-13T15:54:04Z vms14: well, no defun helped to do that
2020-04-13T15:54:04Z phoe: DEFMACRO ASYNC-EVAL still has EVAL
2020-04-13T15:54:11Z vms14: yes, I've just removed that
2020-04-13T15:54:21Z vms14: it's replaced by async-code
2020-04-13T15:54:21Z phoe: then the link at https://termbin.com/k1zt that you just posted still has it
2020-04-13T15:54:25Z axion: your macro still has unwanted capturing
2020-04-13T15:54:27Z phoe: oooh! that's what you meant
2020-04-13T15:55:02Z vms14: she showed me how to do that with a case
2020-04-13T15:55:16Z vms14: I wanted to get rid of using eval, but didn't know how
2020-04-13T15:55:43Z vms14: axion: :O
2020-04-13T15:56:05Z vms14: yes, I should use gensym directly
2020-04-13T15:56:26Z vms14: I'm still having to learn how to use macros properly
2020-04-13T15:57:00Z travv0: Any time you introduce bindings in generated code the names should be gensymed
2020-04-13T15:57:28Z travv0: With rare exception
2020-04-13T15:57:38Z axion: Well your comment says how, but you don't do it
2020-04-13T15:58:26Z vms14: also I should comment my code
2020-04-13T15:58:39Z vms14: that comment is just to remember someone helped me
2020-04-13T15:58:52Z vms14: and it's the second time she helps me with a macro xD
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2020-04-13T16:01:02Z vms14: this was the first time https://gitlab.com/vms14/all/-/blob/master/lisp/html.lisp
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2020-04-13T16:04:24Z vms14: pjb`: it was you who told me to use defstruct?
2020-04-13T16:08:05Z vms14: and there is code you don't see in termbin, but I'm using perl with a socket and making it eval whatever I want xD
2020-04-13T16:09:18Z vms14: I have troubles to load libraries in netbsd, specially if they use ffi. Also tried to use sdl in slackware with quicklisp, but does not find the sdl .so, and it was installed
2020-04-13T16:09:39Z vms14: so I'll use perl as a library and "raw" sbcl
2020-04-13T16:09:45Z phoe: ahh, rare OSes
2020-04-13T16:10:35Z vms14: if slackware would work with lisp and sbcl maybe I'd stay with that, since it's obviously much better to have just lisp and not doing such abomination like what I do
2020-04-13T16:11:08Z vms14: but it seems it will be very deployable at least for unix, using perl sdl and sbcl
2020-04-13T16:11:21Z vms14: and for windows I just need to change unix sockets for pipes
2020-04-13T16:11:32Z vms14: I hope...
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2020-04-13T16:24:54Z pjb: vms14: your async-code operators are not consistent.  do-async takes a body, ie. a list of forms, whole process-async-code uses funcall (expecting a function designator, ie a function or a function name).
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2020-04-13T16:26:24Z pjb: vms14: you may have a look at: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/cesarum/activity.lisp https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/cesarum/activity-test.lisp
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2020-04-13T16:28:44Z pjb: vms14: also, I would advise you to handle errors when calling the meat, and perhaps removing the activity when it produces errors. (or not, you could want to keep it in case the error is transitory).
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2020-04-13T16:30:34Z jcowan: IMO the most important part of picking a name (other than that it's not insulting: few people love the name "Stalin" for an interprocedurally optimizimng compiler) is that Google doesn't find too many hits for it
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2020-04-13T16:30:46Z pjb: vms14: oh, sorry, I see your async-code now. It's ok.
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2020-04-13T16:32:28Z pjb: vms14: also, have a look at bordeaux-threads.
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2020-04-13T16:47:37Z vms14: pjb: thanks for the hints and for your code
2020-04-13T16:48:06Z vms14: I have no threads in lisp here, if you were telling me to use bordeaux threads to make async stuff or alike
2020-04-13T16:48:14Z vms14: unless you just want me to look at the code
2020-04-13T16:48:31Z pjb: vms14: ok, if you don't have threads, you must do it like that.
2020-04-13T16:48:33Z vms14: and you're right, it's inconsistent, also thought that
2020-04-13T16:48:55Z vms14: I see do-later as js setInterval
2020-04-13T16:49:32Z vms14: but, would be better if it's a macro and I don't have to go creating lambdas
2020-04-13T16:49:56Z vms14: so I guess I'll try to change that to be like do-async, taking a body instead of a function
2020-04-13T16:50:04Z pjb: vms14: then you may want to have a look at jwacs, which has a cps-transformer. https://github.com/chumsley/jwacs
2020-04-13T16:50:40Z pjb: vms14: it transforms a form into continuations, which let you split whole expressions into chunks that you can evaluate in turn as with async-code.
2020-04-13T16:50:50Z vms14: jwacs - Javascript With Advanced Continuation Support :O
2020-04-13T16:51:10Z vms14: I'll save those links
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2020-04-13T17:19:14Z phoe: Does the standard define default condition reporters anywhere?
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2020-04-13T17:28:38Z pjb: phoe: if it mentions them, then it must say that they're implementation dependent.
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2020-04-13T17:28:54Z phoe: pjb: I've just noticed. All implementations do these differently.
2020-04-13T17:28:58Z pjb: phoe: basically, when an unhandled condition is signaled, the debugger is invoked, and the debugger s implementation dependent.
2020-04-13T17:29:13Z phoe: pjb: (let ((*print-escape* nil)) (write-to-string (make-condition 'condition)))
2020-04-13T17:29:18Z phoe: no debugger here
2020-04-13T17:29:31Z phoe: just the condition reporter for CONDITION
2020-04-13T17:29:40Z pjb: Oh, this.  No, there's no specification of the message that will be printed.
2020-04-13T17:29:55Z phoe: OK
2020-04-13T17:30:31Z pjb: phoe: the standard condition classes are specified, of course, but you will notice that no reporter message is mentionned in those pages.
2020-04-13T17:30:41Z phoe: yes, I've noticed that
2020-04-13T17:30:54Z pjb: phoe: apart, perhaps the simple-error, since it takes a format-control-string and arguments ;-)
2020-04-13T17:31:11Z phoe: :D
2020-04-13T17:31:18Z pjb: Well, nope.
2020-04-13T17:31:36Z pjb: It only says: "The type simple-error consists of conditions that are signaled by error or cerror when a format control is supplied as the function's first argument."
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2020-04-13T17:32:01Z phoe: clhs simple-condition
2020-04-13T17:32:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_smp_cn.htm
2020-04-13T17:32:04Z phoe: hmmm
2020-04-13T17:32:22Z phoe: no reporting info here either!
2020-04-13T17:32:50Z pjb: phoe: note for example, that clisp is localized, so the reporting can be done in different languages.
2020-04-13T17:32:57Z phoe: correct
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2020-04-13T17:34:59Z Bike: i know it's an ANSI standard and all, but ruling out reporting in languages other than english would still kinda blow.
2020-04-13T17:35:57Z pjb: All user interface questions are not specified, left up to the implementation.
2020-04-13T17:36:22Z pjb: Even the REPL, it's specified only if available. You can have a conforming implementation without a REPL (ie. a batch compiler).
2020-04-13T17:36:49Z pjb: And note that the prompt, how input is done, how output is presented, etc, are not specified.
2020-04-13T17:37:19Z pjb: On the other hand, there's DRIBBLE, and slime-repl doesn't respect it!!!  slime-repl is not a conforming CL repl! :-)
2020-04-13T17:37:22Z Bike: phoe: i think the closest thing is the fiddly rules in 9.1.3.1
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2020-04-13T17:43:24Z phoe: clhs 9.1.3.1
2020-04-13T17:43:24Z specbot: Recommended Style in Condition Reporting: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_aca.htm
2020-04-13T17:44:03Z phoe: huh
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2020-04-13T17:44:34Z phoe: can an argument be made that an implementation doesn't conform to 9.1.3.1 if (let ((*print-escape* nil)) (write-to-string (make-condition 'condition))) returns something that isn't a properly structured English sentence?
2020-04-13T17:44:49Z phoe: I can imagine implementation maintainers deciding to stone me if I ever make such an argument
2020-04-13T17:44:59Z pjb: Nope, English is not specified there.
2020-04-13T17:45:03Z phoe: these are only recommendations after all
2020-04-13T17:45:13Z phoe: s/English/natural language/
2020-04-13T17:45:41Z pjb: Well, I guess as long as it's not binary, anything is acceptable.
2020-04-13T17:46:11Z Bike: i'm kind of surprised it doesn't even say simple conditions go through FORMAT, though
2020-04-13T17:46:17Z pjb: (but then, since most implementation have characters corresponding to ASCII control codes, even binary output as text would do).
2020-04-13T17:46:50Z Bike: i guess it might be weird to specify, since there are situations in which you want to report a condition in some limited way to avoid printer errors
2020-04-13T17:46:54Z pjb: Bike: it's a little implied by the use of format-control and format arguments.
2020-04-13T17:47:47Z pjb: Bike: but you can replace a call to format by a call to the formatter.  (write-string (with-output-to-string (out) (funcall (formatter "~A~%") out "foo")))
2020-04-13T17:48:24Z pjb: Bike: furthermore, an implementation doesn't have to call functions in the CL package. It can call internal functions.  Even written not in CL!!!
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2020-04-13T17:51:12Z splittist: Displaying things in typeout windows on Genera...
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2020-04-13T17:53:24Z phoe: clhs *print-escape*
2020-04-13T17:53:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_esc.htm
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2020-04-13T17:55:25Z Bike: hm, seems like it should say "similar" instead of "equal" to me
2020-04-13T17:56:34Z phoe: "an attempt is made"
2020-04-13T17:58:01Z Bike: yeah, unlike print-readably, print-escape can just give up
2020-04-13T18:00:17Z phoe: but yes, should be "similar"
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2020-04-13T18:36:28Z jcowan: What are some standard use cases / applications for rationals other than integers?
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2020-04-13T18:38:32Z phoe: when you need to, uh, represent rationals in your program?
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2020-04-13T18:38:55Z phoe: they're infinite precision compared to floats, so perhaps that
2020-04-13T18:39:26Z phoe: Offtopic - which part of the standard specifies that globally SETQing a symbol that hasn't been proclaimed a global variable is UB?
2020-04-13T18:40:59Z jcowan: So fractions and arbitrary-precision floats are isomorphic?
2020-04-13T18:41:32Z phoe: sure they are, an infinite-precision float 0.001 is just 1/1000
2020-04-13T18:41:51Z phoe: as long as you don't care about normalization/denormalization and such cases, and compare via =
2020-04-13T18:41:56Z jackdaniel: what is an infinite-precision float?
2020-04-13T18:42:00Z jcowan: (modulo +inf.0, -inf.0, +nan.0, and -0.0
2020-04-13T18:42:17Z phoe: yes, other than these edge cases too
2020-04-13T18:42:37Z jcowan: A float whose mantissa is a bignum.  Of course it is not truly infinite, any more than bignums are.
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2020-04-13T18:43:37Z jasom: jcowan: fractions and arbitrary-precision floats are not completely isomorphic; they are only isomorphic to some arbitrarily small precision.
2020-04-13T18:43:49Z jcowan: Fair enough
2020-04-13T18:44:56Z jasom: you could implement an equality operator that would answer the question "is this float X the most accurate representation of this rational Y" at which point they would be isomorphic until you start doing math on them, at which point they can start drifiting
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2020-04-13T18:46:07Z travv0: phoe: i think it just fails to specify the behavior.  the most relevant text i know of is "The following facilities allow the value of a variable (more specifically, the value associated with the current binding of the variable) to be altered. Such alteration is different from establishing a new binding. Constructs for establishing new bindings of variables are described in section 7.5."
2020-04-13T18:46:32Z travv0: oh that's from cltl2, not the spec
2020-04-13T18:48:21Z phoe: travv0:
2020-04-13T18:48:23Z phoe: clhs 5.1.2.1
2020-04-13T18:48:23Z specbot: Variable Names as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aba.htm
2020-04-13T18:48:26Z Bike: phoe: 3.1.2.1.1 defines various symbols as lexical, dynamic, or constant. a variable that has not been proclaimed special, defconstant'd, or lexically bound, is not included in any of the cases. so, it's undefined
2020-04-13T18:48:38Z phoe: if a symbol does not name a variable then it doesn't apply to 5.1.2.1
2020-04-13T18:48:47Z phoe: Bike: thanks.
2020-04-13T18:50:26Z Bike: it also says an unbound-variable error "should be" signaled if an unbound variable is referenced, so i suppose that could mean that in safe code implementations ought to signal an error
2020-04-13T18:51:04Z phoe: this would imply that (setq ksdjksgh 42) in safe code should signal an error
2020-04-13T18:51:16Z Bike: right.
2020-04-13T18:51:48Z travv0: that would make sense
2020-04-13T18:51:52Z Bike: well, maybe setq doesn't constitute a "reference", since it just writes
2020-04-13T18:51:53Z Bike: eh.
2020-04-13T18:52:11Z Bike: yeah, that must be true, since a variable that's proclaimed special but not bound can be setq'd fine.
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2020-04-13T18:52:44Z phoe: SBCL warns instead of erroring, just as usual
2020-04-13T18:53:14Z aeth: jcowan: an arbitrary, programmer-specified precision float is more useful for the sort of float-style compuations than rationals since rationals will just grow to 234/923489 and then 384978/234897529 and then 328794813489734835179/347918374893714891309143 over time
2020-04-13T18:53:33Z aeth: while rationals are more natural for what they're used for in the numeric tower
2020-04-13T18:54:09Z jasom: right; floats and rationals fill a different niche in computing.  Rationals are less surprising in their results, but floats are less surprising in their performance.
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2020-04-13T18:54:25Z aeth: yeah, that's a better way of phrasing it
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2020-04-13T18:55:18Z jasom: also, fixed-point math can be very useful now that we have 64-bit machines; 64-bit fixed point values can fit a large number of real-world uses.
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2020-04-13T18:55:18Z aeth: and then you have things like (* pi 42/3) or (sqrt 2) and if you want a rational result there, heh, you'd have to add a required precision to everything.
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2020-04-13T18:55:42Z jasom: one might say it's not rational to use rational numbers for irrational calculations :P
2020-04-13T18:55:54Z jcowan: I'm dealing with someone who claims that exact fractions are pointless, so I want to point him to use cases
2020-04-13T18:56:34Z jasom: jcowan (loop repeat 100000 sum (- 1/3 10/31))
2020-04-13T18:56:36Z aeth: (/ 4 3)
2020-04-13T18:56:39Z aeth: literally just (/ 4 3)
2020-04-13T18:57:08Z aeth: for 4 / 3, Python 2 gives you 1, Python 3 gives you 1.3333333333333333, and a proper Lisp for (/ 4 3) gives you 4/3
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2020-04-13T18:58:07Z jcowan: Sure, but those are demonstrations of how fractions work, not use cases for them.  No database I know of, for example, has fractions with arbitrary denominators, which suggests that (a) people don't need to store fractional data, or (b) it would be useful to do so, but because it's not available people don't think of it
2020-04-13T18:58:41Z aeth: You can get either behavior in CL, e.g. (floor 4 3) (or is it truncate?) for Python 2's behavior or, for Python 3's, (float (/ 4 3) 1d0) or (float (/ 4 (float 3 1d0)) or (/ 4 3d0) etc.
2020-04-13T18:59:00Z aeth: jcowan: No database is going to use fractions because they're built for performance
2020-04-13T18:59:15Z jasom: jcowan: with my example  a 64-bit double has an error in the  13th digit, which is way less accurate than one might expect from doubles
2020-04-13T18:59:20Z aeth: If I'm doing a calculation where performance doesn't particularly matter, I'm going to stay in rationals until the end
2020-04-13T18:59:59Z aeth: Or at least until I have to use a float like with SQRT
2020-04-13T19:00:04Z Bike: maybe something in maths? but tragically, i'm not actually a mathematician
2020-04-13T19:00:04Z phoe: jcowan: same use cases as for infinite-precision integer arithmetic. a rational is just a pair of automatically GCD'd integers
2020-04-13T19:00:11Z Bike: determining the error of a floating point calculation, maybe
2020-04-13T19:00:23Z phoe: you only don't need to have rationals if you don't divide your integers.
2020-04-13T19:00:34Z jcowan notes that gcc depends on the mpfr library
2020-04-13T19:00:47Z jcowan: (arbitrary floats)
2020-04-13T19:00:50Z phoe: so that can be delegated to the question of "who needs infinite precision integers anyway"
2020-04-13T19:01:15Z jasom: jcowan: that's necessary for compiling for a target with different FP precisions than a host, if you want to do constant folding anyways
2020-04-13T19:01:32Z jcowan: Up to a point, Minister.  A database with user-defined domains can store bignums and fractions, but query languages won't be able to cope with them as such.
2020-04-13T19:01:45Z jcowan: jasom: Just so
2020-04-13T19:02:07Z jcowan has always seen programming as a verbal, not a mathematical, activity
2020-04-13T19:03:54Z Lycurgus: Minister?
2020-04-13T19:04:02Z Lycurgus: ans in Yes .. ?
2020-04-13T19:04:07Z Lycurgus: *as in
2020-04-13T19:04:19Z pjb: jcowan: not enough APL ! :-)
2020-04-13T19:05:44Z jcowan: Lycurgus: Yes.  It's how the sidekick disagrees
2020-04-13T19:05:53Z Lycurgus: ah
2020-04-13T19:06:32Z aeth: jcowan: imo floats are good for algorithms... because the algorithm author did the work already to (hopefully) prove that the algorithm won't be terribly unsurprising, but floats are still, essentially, surprising.
2020-04-13T19:06:54Z aeth: rationals should, more or less, work out exactly like they would if you had done things on paper.
2020-04-13T19:07:10Z jcowan: Assuming you have a sufficiently large sheet of paper!
2020-04-13T19:07:15Z aeth: If anything, the numeric tower should extend exactness past rationals and include symbols for sqrt, pi, etc. But that's certainly asking too much of implementors
2020-04-13T19:07:49Z Lycurgus: the real diff between now and when the choice was fixed or float is that you have well worked out gmp, usually incorporated in ur better stuffs
2020-04-13T19:08:26Z pjb: aeth: actually, no.  Mathematical reals are surprising "unphysical".  When you use reals in physics, you can't have present and distinguish future from past.  You need intuitive numbers for that.
2020-04-13T19:09:02Z Lycurgus: the mapping of floats to reals was studied albeit obtrusely from the start, there's an ieee paper on it circa '59 or '60
2020-04-13T19:09:29Z drmeister: ASDF is driving me nuts at the moment.
2020-04-13T19:09:33Z Lycurgus: s/obtruse/arcane/
2020-04-13T19:09:37Z aeth: jcowan: that is, imo this is less surprising in a sense: (sqrt 12) =>  2\/3 (or using the actual unicode symbol, which my IRC doesn't want me to paste)
2020-04-13T19:09:45Z drmeister: I (asdf:load-system :something-that-im-developing)
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2020-04-13T19:09:50Z drmeister: I get this backtrace in slime...
2020-04-13T19:09:52Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/glK56Zyy/
2020-04-13T19:10:02Z aeth: I think you would only have to extend the numeric tower to handle sqrt, e, and pi
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2020-04-13T19:10:17Z drmeister: I have no idea what is wrong.   Something in 'interpret.lisp'
2020-04-13T19:10:21Z aeth: (Possibly exact exponentials too)
2020-04-13T19:11:04Z drmeister: I C-c C-k the file and it generates lots of warnings - and I go through them looking for something that can break compile-file.
2020-04-13T19:11:14Z drmeister: Is that the best I can do?
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2020-04-13T19:11:34Z aeth: pjb: we don't need reals, we just need computable numbers, but specific to exact numbers, we just need a way to express the operations symbolically that currently require us to "escape" into the floats even if we don't want to. That's e, pi, sqrt, and possibly a general expt
2020-04-13T19:11:54Z drmeister: Walking through 50 warnings looking for something that breaks compile-file is annoying.
2020-04-13T19:12:17Z phoe: drmeister: that is what I do myself, yes.
2020-04-13T19:12:18Z aeth: drmeister: I'd like to help, but I can't really figure out the control flow of ASDF, either
2020-04-13T19:12:39Z aeth: Things I think must execute don't (break) etc.
2020-04-13T19:13:31Z pjb: aeth: the strange thing is that with e pi and a few square roots, we have named enough reals to do most things.  Imagine a universe where we would need to use hundreds of such numbers!
2020-04-13T19:13:37Z pjb: and i.
2020-04-13T19:14:11Z aeth: we do have i (and Scheme even does it like 4+3i instead of #C(4 3))
2020-04-13T19:14:27Z pjb: e^-ipi +1 = 0
2020-04-13T19:14:41Z aeth: pjb: afaik, we need more physical constants mostly because we don't use natural units, but rather the arbitrary metric ones
2020-04-13T19:14:47Z aeth: but there might be some relations that still require constants anyway
2020-04-13T19:14:54Z pjb: aeth: physical constants are not reals.
2020-04-13T19:14:54Z aeth: at least in our current understanding
2020-04-13T19:15:22Z pjb: aeth: it looks like for physics, we don't need all the reals, but we can work in a subspace of R.
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2020-04-13T19:18:53Z adlai: aren't most solutions to eigenvalue equations provably non-algebraic ?
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2020-04-13T19:20:22Z adlai always had this impression, maybe it's not true and physicists have only not yet found the closed-form algebraic expressions
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2020-04-13T19:24:31Z aeth: My impression as far as physical constants go, and I'm not a physicist, is that it's *possible* that some of the relations described in the constants are like pi...
2020-04-13T19:24:35Z Bike: transcendental numbers infinitely outnumber algebraic ones, no?
2020-04-13T19:25:00Z phoe: this is the most #lisp post I have read today
2020-04-13T19:25:14Z adlai: Bike, correct, the algebraic numbers are countable whereas transendentals are uncountable
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2020-04-13T19:25:59Z Bike: drmeister: any actual warning other than a style-warning will cause compile-file to report failure.
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2020-04-13T19:26:43Z jasom: Bike: I agree with drmeister in that it's annoying to have 100s of style warnings and then a single warning or error *somewhere* in the output
2020-04-13T19:26:53Z Bike: oh, sure. i don't know what the hey asdf is doing.
2020-04-13T19:27:06Z phoe: jasom: that could perhaps be a slime issue
2020-04-13T19:27:08Z jasom: sbcl is fairly profligate with its style warnings  when speed optimizations are enabled
2020-04-13T19:27:22Z phoe: to have the slime debugger report errors at the top of *slime-compilation-warnings* buffer, or something
2020-04-13T19:27:32Z phoe: that would be a good sieve IMO
2020-04-13T19:27:44Z phoe: drmeister: what do you think?
2020-04-13T19:28:07Z Bike: hm, we could probably sort the conditions we give to slime
2020-04-13T19:28:10Z jasom: yeah ,reporting in order of severity error,warning,style-warning (does lisp have anything less sever than style warnings?)
2020-04-13T19:28:11Z Bike: i don'
2020-04-13T19:28:16Z Bike: t know if slime would respect the order, though
2020-04-13T19:28:33Z Bike: lisp does not have anything less severe than style warnings, but it's reasonably common to have a compiler-note class that's less severe
2020-04-13T19:28:33Z _death: compiler-note?
2020-04-13T19:28:35Z phoe: Bike: I'd actually prefer slime to do it rather than submit changes to all the implementations
2020-04-13T19:28:39Z Bike: sbcl has it and swank supports it
2020-04-13T19:28:45Z phoe: _death: standard lisp
2020-04-13T19:28:49Z phoe: compiler-notes are a SBCL thing
2020-04-13T19:28:55Z _death: phoe: right
2020-04-13T19:28:58Z Bike: i think other implementations have them
2020-04-13T19:29:04Z Bike: if not, they probably ought to, it's useful
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2020-04-13T19:29:49Z Bike: standard situations can easily be compiler notes. off the top of my head, when the compiler attempts to use a compiler macro but it fails because an argument was not constant
2020-04-13T19:30:09Z Bike: that's not a style problem, it's just "hey, this could work better"
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2020-04-13T19:34:40Z phoe: yes
2020-04-13T19:34:44Z phoe: huh, sounds like a possible CDR
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2020-04-13T19:35:13Z drmeister: Hi - sorry - got called away for a bit.
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2020-04-13T19:36:29Z pve: hello everyone
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2020-04-13T19:37:37Z pve: If I have a defclass in a file, and then later in that same file a defmacro with an &environment parameter, then should the environment parameter know about that class? (that could be passed to find-class when the macro is expanded)
2020-04-13T19:38:04Z Bike: this is unfortunately a bit of a mystery.
2020-04-13T19:38:21Z Bike: the clhs page on defclass says the type has to be noted as a type by the compiler, but whether that means find-class works...
2020-04-13T19:38:52Z drmeister: Ok - thanks folks - knowing that it annoys everyone else helps somewhat - it means I'm not missing something.
2020-04-13T19:41:12Z pve: the clhs page explicitly mentions find-class, but I can't get it to work on SBCL.. hence my confusion
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2020-04-13T19:42:02Z Bike: yes, well, there are some difficulties. for example if the class definition requires some methods on validate-superclass and mop things.
2020-04-13T19:42:05Z phoe: drmeister: I'd throw a pair of issues at ASDF and slime; the one at ASDF stating that the error signaled due to compile-file errors should contain the list of signaled errors in a slot; the one at slime, errors could be at the top of the slime-compilation-output buffer
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2020-04-13T19:42:16Z phoe: that should fix the issues for everyone
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2020-04-13T19:43:24Z pve: ok, thanks
2020-04-13T19:43:33Z Bike: phoe: looking at swank, sbcl, lispworks, and allegro all have compiler notes. (SCL and CMUCL also treat style warnings as notes, not sure what's going on there)
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2020-04-13T19:47:13Z Bike: phoe: and while i'm at it, sbcl, clasp, and allegro have condition classes for noting a redefinition (also supported specially by swank)
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2020-04-13T19:50:29Z Bike: implementation compilers are the heaviest users of weird condition shit i'm aware of, so it's interesting to see what they go with
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2020-04-13T19:55:08Z jackdaniel: ecl has compiler-note, compiler-style-warning, compiler-warning  or something in this spirit
2020-04-13T19:55:42Z jackdaniel: mind that compiler-warning does not subclass/subcondition the warning condition
2020-04-13T19:56:18Z Bike: yeah, it's the same on sbcl.
2020-04-13T19:56:29Z Bike: swank/ecl.lisp doesn't know about any notes. sad
2020-04-13T19:56:39Z Bike: oh wait, misunderstood re compiler warning
2020-04-13T19:58:19Z jackdaniel dives right now in ecl's moppery, pcl is annoying
2020-04-13T20:05:12Z pjb: pve: AFAIUI, the defclass defines classes in the global environment (named NIL).  The environment the macro gets will be a local (lexical) environment.  You can define classes in that environment (using (setf find-class) !).  But if you don't and call just find-class, it will find the class in the global environment.  So you need to use the &environment only if you use (setf find-class) to define local classes.
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2020-04-13T20:10:34Z pve: pjb: Thank you. Hmm, local classes.. that's a new one
2020-04-13T20:14:33Z pjb: pve: I'm not sure of the usefulness of this concept, though…
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2020-04-13T20:16:51Z phoe: random question: which symbol from the CL package is the most obscure one?
2020-04-13T20:16:58Z phoe: note I'm not asking about useless; I'm asking about the most confusing, unknown, unused and/or underutilized one
2020-04-13T20:18:40Z phoe: so far I am thinking either WITH-CONDITION-RESTARTS or something from the pathname dictionary
2020-04-13T20:19:06Z jackdaniel: otherwise
2020-04-13T20:19:19Z phoe: oof, that's a good one
2020-04-13T20:19:45Z aeth: The most useless pair is RPLACA and RPLACD, basically just unwritable, unmemorable alternatives to (setf car) and (setf cdr)
2020-04-13T20:20:02Z jackdaniel: they are quite memorable to me
2020-04-13T20:20:17Z aeth: they're memorable in a sense, but I always look them up to make sure I didn't get a letter wrong, which I sometimes do
2020-04-13T20:20:27Z Bike: i remember this came up before and someone- maybe xach? found that OTHERWISE is the only cl symbol that doesn't fit a meaning classification
2020-04-13T20:20:34Z Bike: also, besides otherwise i'd pick STANDARD
2020-04-13T20:20:36Z Shinmera: phoe: dribble?
2020-04-13T20:20:38Z axion: under-used: dribble?
2020-04-13T20:20:42Z Shinmera: hah.
2020-04-13T20:20:45Z axion: ha
2020-04-13T20:21:19Z phoe: good ones too
2020-04-13T20:21:25Z scymtym: NRECONC
2020-04-13T20:21:33Z Shinmera: there's also ed
2020-04-13T20:21:33Z jackdaniel: both-case-p
2020-04-13T20:21:40Z jackdaniel: ed has potential
2020-04-13T20:22:08Z jackdaniel: cdaadr
2020-04-13T20:22:18Z aeth: PROG, PROG*, and PROG2 are things that people probably don't know exist, even though PROG2 is useful. (PROG and PROG*, not so much, since TAGBODY is almost always in a macro)
2020-04-13T20:22:28Z jackdaniel: with sufficiently elaborate c*r hierarch one could do morse with them
2020-04-13T20:22:31Z aeth: it looks like there's a PROGV as well
2020-04-13T20:22:49Z phoe: progv is actually useful, as obscure as it is
2020-04-13T20:23:13Z aeth: PROGV is the one I haven't heard of before, I knew I'd find one if I did "!l1sp prog" in DDG
2020-04-13T20:23:25Z phoe: it is the only operator that allows you to bind dynavars fully at runtime
2020-04-13T20:23:27Z Shinmera: ldiff?
2020-04-13T20:23:50Z Shinmera: lotsa weird stuff I never use.
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2020-04-13T20:24:11Z _death: ldiff is quite useful, especially in tandem with member
2020-04-13T20:24:23Z axion: sublis? Don't think I've ever seen that one used before. As for me, I never use DO/DO* and I always get confused about the control flow when I see it used by others, but that's just me probably.
2020-04-13T20:24:34Z aeth: The real strange things are extentions to things you use every day where you never use those features. I'm talking about e.g. &aux
2020-04-13T20:24:43Z aeth: it is a symbol in CL...
2020-04-13T20:24:59Z phoe: aeth: also a very good one
2020-04-13T20:25:02Z _death: I guess one way to find out is to write a program calculating the relative frequency of the symbols in the lisp codebase on your machine
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2020-04-13T20:26:19Z aeth: A weird feature (which I have found a use for) is ":allow-other-keys t" in the caller, but that's not in CL. This allows you to have a higher-order-function in your public API without making breaking changes when you add optional things.
2020-04-13T20:26:37Z aeth: (I mean, it's a keyword, not in the CL package)
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2020-04-13T20:26:56Z phoe: aeth: &allow-other-keys
2020-04-13T20:27:09Z phoe: that is in CL though
2020-04-13T20:27:14Z theseb: Does EVERY expression need to return something?  I tried "(if false 3)" and didn't see it return anything?
2020-04-13T20:27:16Z phoe: ...oh, you mean the caller side though
2020-04-13T20:27:24Z _death: clhs gentemp
2020-04-13T20:27:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gentem.htm
2020-04-13T20:27:27Z phoe: theseb: what's "false"?
2020-04-13T20:27:28Z aeth: phoe: (defun foo (f) (funcall f :foo 42 :allow-other-keys t)) (foo (lambda (&key) (format t "Hello!~%")))
2020-04-13T20:27:35Z aeth: phoe: incredibly obscure but you can see where it makes sense
2020-04-13T20:27:35Z phoe: aeth: yes, that's correct
2020-04-13T20:27:51Z theseb: phoe: oh ..ug i did it in an online web scheme thing
2020-04-13T20:28:02Z phoe: theseb: in Common Lisp, this returns NIL
2020-04-13T20:28:02Z theseb: phoe: but question still stands
2020-04-13T20:28:05Z _death: I guess the boole operators are also quite obscure
2020-04-13T20:28:07Z phoe: (if nil 3) ;=> nil
2020-04-13T20:28:18Z phoe: _death: boole operators actually make sense when you think about them
2020-04-13T20:28:19Z theseb: phoe: interesting
2020-04-13T20:28:19Z pjb: clhs if
2020-04-13T20:28:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_if.htm
2020-04-13T20:28:22Z pjb: theseb:  ^
2020-04-13T20:28:26Z phoe: but yes, they're underused
2020-04-13T20:28:29Z _death: phoe: Naggum had an interesting post about them
2020-04-13T20:28:43Z theseb: phoe: why something so basic is *different* between common lisp and scheme?
2020-04-13T20:29:12Z phoe: yes, https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=boole
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2020-04-13T20:29:15Z pjb: theseb: note how the else-form default is nil.  Therefore (if nil 3) returns nil.  It could have been (values) but since multiple values are a recent addition to lisp, they stayed with nil which was the original behavior.
2020-04-13T20:29:19Z phoe: theseb: because they're different languages
2020-04-13T20:29:30Z travv0: that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to basic things that are different between cl and scheme
2020-04-13T20:29:32Z pjb: theseb: Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
2020-04-13T20:29:43Z phoe: that's like asking why something so basic is different between C++ and Java
2020-04-13T20:30:03Z phoe: for any good enough value of "something so basic"
2020-04-13T20:30:26Z aeth: theseb: That's one of the few points where Common Lisp is more ideologically ideal than Scheme is. most Schemes take "unspecified" return values literally and return something like #<unspecified> or #<undefined>, which your REPL might not show. Or maybe returning nothing, in a way that CL can't.
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2020-04-13T20:31:01Z phoe: in theory Lisp can return (values) but that gets coerced to NIL anyway
2020-04-13T20:31:02Z aeth: theseb: In Common Lisp, things that would have a "useless" return still return something: NIL (which is false)
2020-04-13T20:31:12Z aeth: phoe: yes, except in multiple-value-call or multiple-value-list
2020-04-13T20:31:21Z aeth: so returning (values) is just asking for code to break in an edge case
2020-04-13T20:31:35Z phoe: yes
2020-04-13T20:31:43Z _death: GO and THROW for example do not return anything
2020-04-13T20:31:55Z phoe: _death: nice
2020-04-13T20:32:01Z phoe: neither does INVOKE-DEBUGGER
2020-04-13T20:32:33Z aeth: or your REPL's implementation-specific (exit) or (quit)
2020-04-13T20:33:32Z elderK: Hey all. I was wondering where I can find a list of defined character names.
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2020-04-13T20:33:57Z elderK: Say, for |. Is it just #\| or is there another name, like pipe?
2020-04-13T20:34:07Z phoe: elderK: that's implementation-dependent
2020-04-13T20:34:22Z phoe: clhs 2.1.3
2020-04-13T20:34:22Z specbot: Standard Characters: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ac.htm
2020-04-13T20:34:25Z phoe: the rest is up to the implementation
2020-04-13T20:34:25Z Shinmera: clhs 13.1.7
2020-04-13T20:34:25Z specbot: Character Names: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/13_ag.htm
2020-04-13T20:34:43Z elderK: phoe:Perhaps it would be better to match on unsigned integer values then.
2020-04-13T20:35:01Z phoe: elderK: some char-codes won't map to characters and instead return NIL.
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2020-04-13T20:35:41Z Bike: elderK: many, hopefully most, implementations use the names defined by unicode.
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2020-04-13T20:36:16Z Bike: which would make, e.g., (name-char "VERTICAL_LINE") work
2020-04-13T20:37:15Z aeth: Unicode is one of the few places where the implementation is lacking.
2020-04-13T20:37:21Z aeth: s/implementation/specification/
2020-04-13T20:37:30Z aeth: Which is good. Implementations can use modern Unicode, not early 1990s
2020-04-13T20:37:48Z phoe: aeth: modern implementations specifically break the standard to use unicode
2020-04-13T20:38:26Z aeth: I wish they'd break the standard to add the IEEE short-float (too imprecise)
2020-04-13T20:38:47Z phoe: clhs 13.1.4.3
2020-04-13T20:38:47Z specbot: Characters With Case: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/13_adc.htm
2020-04-13T20:38:47Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-precision_floating-point_format
2020-04-13T20:38:51Z elderK: Are there any particular gotchas I should be aware of if I am parsing arbitrary input?
2020-04-13T20:38:54Z phoe: "Every character with case is in one-to-one correspondence with some other character with the opposite case."
2020-04-13T20:39:03Z pjb: aeth: an implementation can be an implementation of a superset of CL.
2020-04-13T20:39:04Z elderK: I am working on a small tool, originally written in C, reimplementing in Lisp for fun.
2020-04-13T20:39:06Z aeth: phoe: SBCL doesn't violate the standard here. SBCL has separate case rules in sb-unicode...
2020-04-13T20:39:18Z elderK: The tool reads a modified form of BNF, and lets me do a bunch of useful things.
2020-04-13T20:39:21Z phoe: this one is against unicode and so modern implementations knowingly break this
2020-04-13T20:39:24Z _death: aeth: couldn't an implementation just define a half-float type?
2020-04-13T20:39:25Z Shinmera: Work on CL started well before Unicode came out.
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2020-04-13T20:39:26Z phoe: aeth: oh!
2020-04-13T20:39:33Z phoe: I need to see it now then
2020-04-13T20:39:58Z aeth: phoe: It's actually a bit annoying because I #+sbcl sb-unicode things and then #-sbcl the standard CL things and hope they're like CCL and standards-violating to more closely match sb-unicode
2020-04-13T20:40:03Z aeth: no portability library here afaik
2020-04-13T20:40:23Z aeth: but there's no whitespacep
2020-04-13T20:40:35Z aeth: I don't think the standard anticipated all of the whitespace in Unicode
2020-04-13T20:40:55Z phoe: yes, that's correct
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2020-04-13T20:41:03Z pjb: aeth: as long as it's documented, you can define a half-float as a subtype of float.
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2020-04-13T20:42:19Z aeth: pjb: it would be much better to have a the half-precision float as the short float, though, since (1) it's IEEE not some extension and (2) the linguistic/reader convenience is for short floats, which most implementations currently don't even support
2020-04-13T20:42:23Z aeth: (it's about 50/50 on long float)
2020-04-13T20:42:56Z aeth: (I mean, short-float is almost-universally single-float in modern CL)
2020-04-13T20:43:26Z Shinmera: probably because most processors don't operate on them.
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2020-04-13T20:44:24Z drmeister: phoe: Thank you very much!
2020-04-13T20:46:26Z pjb: aeth: but it would break programs that expect the 16 significant bit of the mantisa of a short-float…
2020-04-13T20:46:40Z phoe: drmeister: no problem; if ASDF and slime decide to implement that, it'll be a time-saver for all of us.
2020-04-13T20:46:52Z pjb: aeth: granted, there must not be a lot of programs using short-floats…
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2020-04-13T20:50:18Z froggey: aeth: ok, you've convinced me. I'll implement short-float as IEEE half float
2020-04-13T20:50:56Z froggey: afaik the precision minimums are just recommendations, not requirements
2020-04-13T20:51:06Z aeth: great
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2020-04-13T20:51:44Z aeth: it's only 11 instead of 13 bits... probably no one will notice
2020-04-13T20:51:47Z stylewarning: froggey: arbitrary precision floats for long floats!
2020-04-13T20:52:11Z froggey: that's considerably more complicated
2020-04-13T20:52:12Z aeth: froggey: you're right, it's a recommendation. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_short_.htm
2020-04-13T20:52:25Z aeth: So it's conforming, it's just that no one is raising this issue around implementors
2020-04-13T20:53:27Z aeth: I guess it can't be required because hardware support isn't really something implementors have control over
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2020-04-13T20:55:49Z pjb: Good point, the minimums are only recommendations!  Great!
2020-04-13T20:56:26Z aeth: I think some GPUs support IEEE half-precision float these days so implementation support might be useful
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2020-04-13T20:56:40Z aeth: (meanwhile, everyone will continue to do machine learning in Python)
2020-04-13T20:56:48Z pjb: aeth: definitely.
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2020-04-13T20:58:11Z aeth: Hopefully we can start a short-float effort like we did with package-local-nicknames
2020-04-13T20:58:25Z aeth: then languages that have a long-float will have four distinct floats
2020-04-13T20:59:00Z elderK: Hmm. Does CL define a "carriage return" character?
2020-04-13T20:59:39Z Bike: clhs 13.1.7
2020-04-13T20:59:39Z specbot: Character Names: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/13_ag.htm
2020-04-13T20:59:45Z Bike: so, kinda.
2020-04-13T20:59:50Z Shinmera: elderK: I linked you the answer already before
2020-04-13T21:00:08Z Bike: so you did
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2020-04-13T21:00:34Z elderK: Shinmera: You did indeed.
2020-04-13T21:01:04Z elderK: I am curious as to how lexing is often done in CL. Is it common to switch on the CL character names? Or is it common to switch on code-points?
2020-04-13T21:01:17Z elderK: Then when you know the code point, translate it to a character and push it into some buffer?
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2020-04-13T21:03:00Z phoe: I'd personally switch from charcodes to characters as soon as I can; this way I will also get instant char-code validation, and any char-codes that are invalid can be mapped to something sane or used to signal a corrupted-file error of sorts
2020-04-13T21:04:23Z elderK: phoe: So, code-char ASAP?
2020-04-13T21:05:11Z aeth: char<, char<=, etc. give you basically everything you need... except for one thing
2020-04-13T21:05:33Z phoe: elderK: even better, don't read the files yourself; let babel/flexi-streams do that for you
2020-04-13T21:05:34Z aeth: I had to write my own char-dec and char-inc that goes to char-code and then back to code-char
2020-04-13T21:05:53Z aeth: that is, if I want the largest char char< but not char<=
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2020-04-13T21:05:56Z aeth: (or the other way around)
2020-04-13T21:06:27Z elderK: phoe: What would babel / flexistreams do for me here? Eithey way, I still want to pump my lexer state machine.
2020-04-13T21:07:37Z aeth: The other thing where the integer representation makes more sense is, I don't think there's an "infinity" char that's char> all other chars
2020-04-13T21:07:55Z aeth: some things may want something like that, too
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2020-04-13T21:08:52Z aeth: (you can just (1+ char-code-limit) if working with char-codes)
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2020-04-13T21:09:34Z aeth: (then you have the advantage of an error if you try to use the "char infinity" outside of the reasonable context to use it, too)
2020-04-13T21:10:15Z aeth: technically, I think it might just be char-code-limit instead of (1+ char-code-limit), but unfortunately that's just a "might"
2020-04-13T21:10:37Z aeth: In SBCL (code-char (1- char-code-limit)) seems to be the largest valid
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2020-04-13T21:14:59Z aeth: hmm... in fact, char-code-limit isn't even required to be a fixnum so it might be most-positive-bignum. It just needs to be *an* upper bound.
2020-04-13T21:15:23Z phoe: elderK: portably taking care of character encoding for you.
2020-04-13T21:16:07Z elderK: phoe: It's a tool for myself so I can safely assume ASCII for now.
2020-04-13T21:16:31Z phoe: oooh, not even UTF-8?
2020-04-13T21:16:36Z phoe: well then
2020-04-13T21:17:15Z aeth: elderK: In that case, I'd just assume that code-char/char-code is valid Unicode
2020-04-13T21:18:53Z aeth: Implementations that break this assumption can be dealt with via #+foo later
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2020-04-13T21:29:21Z elderK: Is there a way to clear a vector? Or reset a stringstream?
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2020-04-13T21:31:21Z jasom: elderK: what do you mean by "clear" a vector?
2020-04-13T21:31:33Z jasom: elderK: for vectors with fill-pointers, you can set the fill-pointer to 0
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2020-04-13T21:33:05Z jasom: and get-output-stream-string will reset a an string-output-stream (but per spec is not compatible with with-output-to-string)
2020-04-13T21:33:53Z pjb: jasom: setting the fill-pointer doesn't change the elments. it doesn't "clear" anything.
2020-04-13T21:34:17Z jasom: pjb: it makes it logically empty, which could be considered clearing
2020-04-13T21:34:35Z pjb: elderK: perhaps you want: (fill vector nil) (let ((v (vector 1 2 3))) (fill v nil) v) #| --> #(nil nil nil) |#
2020-04-13T21:35:32Z pjb: jasom: despite the name "fill-pointer", it doesn't mean that the remaining elements are less in the vector.  You can count on them, and use the fill-pointer just as a cursor in the vector.
2020-04-13T21:36:14Z pjb: jasom: it's not logically empty.  It's just a vector with a cursor at the start, so that if you push new elements, they will overwrite the old elements.
2020-04-13T21:36:21Z jasom: pjb: LENGTH will return 0; that sounds empty to me
2020-04-13T21:36:24Z elderK: pjb: Logically "cleared" is fine. I just want to reuse a buffer is all, and be able to translate the buffer into a string later :)
2020-04-13T21:36:40Z pjb: jasom: (array-dimension v 0) always return the same…
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2020-04-13T21:37:02Z pjb: (array-dimension (make-array 10 :fill-pointer 0) 0) #| --> 10 |#
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2020-04-13T21:37:27Z jasom: (alexandria:emptyp (make-array 10 :fill-pointer 0))
2020-04-13T21:37:34Z jasom: (alexandria:emptyp (make-array 10 :fill-pointer 0)) ; => T
2020-04-13T21:37:45Z pjb: elderK: for a vector of characters, basically it wouldn't make a difference to fill it with #\null, so indeed, setting the fill-pointer will be enough.
2020-04-13T21:38:13Z pjb: elderK: but for a vector of non-number and non-character, filling it with nil would allow the objects to be garbage collected if no other references exist.
2020-04-13T21:38:22Z pjb: which would be a better clearing of the vector…
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2020-04-13T21:43:15Z elderK: pjb: Thank you, pjb
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2020-04-13T21:55:06Z phoe: woah
2020-04-13T21:55:22Z phoe: the optional arguments to CERROR are used *both* for the format control and for the datum?
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2020-04-13T21:56:15Z pjb: nope. cerror continue-format-control datum &rest arguments
2020-04-13T21:56:35Z Bike: you can use ~*... actually tne notes even say so, huh
2020-04-13T21:56:43Z pjb: If datum is a condition, arguments can be supplied, but are used only in conjunction with the continue-format-control.
2020-04-13T21:56:43Z phoe: (cerror "Frobnicate ~A ~A ~A ~A." 'simple-error :format-control "foo ~A" :format-arguments '(42))
2020-04-13T21:56:54Z phoe: this causes a condition with report "foo 42" to be signaled
2020-04-13T21:57:11Z pjb: :-)
2020-04-13T21:57:12Z phoe: with a CONTINUE restart available, signaling "Frobnicate FORMAT-CONTROL foo ~A FORMAT-ARGUMENTS (42)."
2020-04-13T21:57:25Z phoe: this is the coolest thing I have learned today! crazy!
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2020-04-13T22:02:55Z pjb: phoe: yes, I see.  indeed, arguments is used to both initialize the condition, and to format the continue-format-control string, when datum is not itself a condition.
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2020-04-13T22:03:31Z pjb: It is assumed that indeed, the arguments to the conditions are reused for the continue restart message.
2020-04-13T22:06:53Z phoe: And that is a very nice hack
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2020-04-13T23:34:17Z no-defun-allowed: Have named registers disappeared from cl-ppcre?
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2020-04-13T23:37:38Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, maybe not. The GitHub repository for cl-ppcre has named register support, but the Quicklisp version does not.
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2020-04-14T00:32:49Z Xach: no-defun-allowed: which github repository?
2020-04-14T00:33:12Z no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/edicl/cl-ppcre
2020-04-14T00:33:23Z Xach: no-defun-allowed: that is the one i use in quicklisp
2020-04-14T00:33:41Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed it is. I don't know how my laptop got a different cl-ppcre then.
2020-04-14T00:35:38Z no-defun-allowed: Aha, the practical-common-lisp code has an old cl-ppcre in it.
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2020-04-14T00:36:50Z Xach: noooo!
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2020-04-14T01:56:34Z LdBeth: Ok I think I can spend some time add progressive decoding to cl-jpeg
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2020-04-14T03:22:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-14T03:28:22Z LdBeth: morning beach
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2020-04-14T04:43:05Z names: cods ArthurStrong hiroaki KindOne scymtym dale Zotan leo_song himmAllRight whiteline dmiles vhost- Xach reggie__ axion v88m astronavt Jesin loli gabiruh Josh_2 srji Necktwi stepnem zaquest zymurgy quazimodo xlei zmt01 Jachy pilne vsync Kevslinger heredoc aeth grumble madage dilated_dinosaur cantstanya voidlily luis sz0 kilimanjaro jbgg creat vidak` abbe DGASAU` eagleflo APic specbot amnesic[m] LdBeth katco no-defun-allowed mhitchman[m] phadthai drmeister
2020-04-14T04:43:05Z names: beach jfrancis Yardanico Krystof niceplace xantoz swflint benjamin-l hdasch shinohai ski mason guna shymega Colleen nckx cylb drot _whitelogger flazh arbv eMBee q-u-a-n22 thonkpod Tordek vert2 Posterdati v0|d dvdmuckle CrazyEddy ark chipolux cracauer t3hyoshi fengshaun sh_zam datajerk kopiyka jsatk parisienne_ z0d jackdaniel manualcrank nitrix ravndal notzmv troydm larme froggey vaporatorius gingerale kim\ jackhill Oddity greaser|q stux|RC-only yang gigetoo
2020-04-14T04:43:05Z names: rumbler31 Kaisyu7 karstensrage cybercafe pent lonjil asedeno hydan mgsk Kemwer_ madand_ epony Lord_Nightmare clintm[m] cmatei wooden mathrick sjl SlashLife snits ft ecraven CommanderViral twelvemonkeys mjsir911 conjunctive ozzloy travv0 johs seisatsu remexre emacsomancer eta AdmiralBumbleBee copec ioa akkad Mandus Davd[m] davsebam1e mgr_ Nikotiini hjudt felideon acolarh Gnuxie[m] liambrown unl0ckd infra_red[m] tephra hiredman bmansurov theBlackDragon
2020-04-14T04:43:05Z names: sbryant_ Grue` tessier trn borodust adlai mgsk_ flip214 fouric simplegauss femi loke C-Keen aap chip2n rixard edgar-rft Demosthenex funnel narendraj9 nullman lowryder spal lieven rumpelszn _death boeg splittist entel lispyone_ thijso pok add^_ kingcons Ziemas MichaelRaskin markasoftware jxy xristos tumdum beaky cpape easye minion rotty nchambers payphone kmeow d4ryus Shinmera esotericalgo winny idxu fiddlerwoaroof brass [df] mood Kabriel ober ramus zerous
2020-04-14T04:43:05Z names: emma matijja bkst chewbranca banjiewen Balooga tfb p_l hvxgr glamas b0nn devrtz cg505 dxtr stux|RC cross ``Erik koenig HiRE MetaYan gko` jcowan ssake l1x lukego rvirding jlpeters billstclair mjl dlowe jfb4 cyberlard thecoffemaker HDurer null_ptr ult lbtjp Blkt Odin- cdegroot chrpape knobo phoe jcob jurov Ekho @fe[nl]ix shenghi otwieracz cwaydt justinmcp_ |3b| kini guaqua moon-child trufas jdz Snow-Man samebchase michalisko mrSpec dyelar saturn2
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2020-04-14T06:08:30Z phoe: morning
2020-04-14T06:08:39Z alandipert: hi phoe o/
2020-04-14T06:11:14Z ebrasca: morning phoe!
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2020-04-14T06:25:20Z phoe: hey ebrasca alandipert
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2020-04-14T10:21:28Z phoe: TIL: I may not #'WARN non-WARNING conditions
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2020-04-14T11:26:15Z jmercouris: let's say I have a symbol 'salmon, how can I check existence of class salmon?
2020-04-14T11:26:30Z jmercouris: find-clasS?
2020-04-14T11:26:58Z jmercouris: just want to know if there are any gotchas here
2020-04-14T11:27:52Z jmercouris: well, there are a few, I guess I have to specify a package... in other words, it won't search the whole image
2020-04-14T11:28:09Z jmercouris: I could recurse through all packages...
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2020-04-14T11:28:49Z jackdaniel: foo:salmon and bar:salmon are most likely two different classes
2020-04-14T11:28:59Z jmercouris: yes
2020-04-14T11:29:05Z jmercouris: I am just interested if there exists a class salmon
2020-04-14T11:29:11Z jackdaniel: did you mean: how can I find a class with the same name as a symbol salmon
2020-04-14T11:29:14Z jackdaniel: ?
2020-04-14T11:29:19Z jmercouris: yes
2020-04-14T11:29:26Z jackdaniel: that's very different question
2020-04-14T11:29:42Z jmercouris: I don't care to find the class, I want to know should such a class exist anywhere in the image in any namespace
2020-04-14T11:29:52Z jackdaniel: namespace?
2020-04-14T11:29:55Z jmercouris: package
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2020-04-14T11:30:23Z phoe: jmercouris: use do-all-symbols
2020-04-14T11:31:06Z jmercouris: ah, yes, thank you
2020-04-14T11:31:18Z phoe: (do-all-symbols (symbol) (when (and (string= symbol :salmon) (find-class symbol nil)) (return symbol)))
2020-04-14T11:31:44Z phoe: that'll return the first found symbol
2020-04-14T11:31:50Z phoe: modify as appropriate if you want to collect them instead.
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2020-04-14T11:33:03Z jmercouris: 1
2020-04-14T11:33:04Z jmercouris: thanks
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2020-04-14T12:03:16Z _death: would be more efficient to find-symbol in each package, or use apropos-list
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2020-04-14T12:03:47Z phoe: _death: also a good solution
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2020-04-14T12:26:11Z MetaYan: phoe's "do-all-symbols" solution is very fast compared to using apropos-list, even when collecting all the found classes. At least on SBCL.
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2020-04-14T12:32:08Z jmercouris: tutorial for closer-mop? I'm trying to find classes which inherit from a specific class
2020-04-14T12:36:37Z phoe: jmercouris: (ql:quickload :moptilities) (mopu:subclasses 'standard-object)
2020-04-14T12:40:22Z jmercouris: once again, thank you!
2020-04-14T12:40:27Z jmercouris: no tutorial though anywhere?
2020-04-14T12:40:36Z jmercouris: or documentation? only in source?
2020-04-14T12:42:25Z phoe: AMOP is the MOP tutorial
2020-04-14T12:42:29Z phoe: read it, it's an amazing book
2020-04-14T12:42:41Z jmercouris: ah, that one
2020-04-14T12:42:54Z jmercouris: I could only find physical copies
2020-04-14T12:42:58Z jmercouris: is it available anywhere digitally?
2020-04-14T12:43:11Z hjudt: has anyone trie to use parinfer/paredit together with ya-snippets and can give hints how to set them up so they don't conflict?
2020-04-14T12:44:38Z _death: MetaYan: you're right.. here do-all-symbols test takes around 1.7ms, apropos-list test takes around 62.5ms and find-symbol test around 0.033ms.. I guess nobody cared about making apropos-list efficient
2020-04-14T12:44:50Z hjudt: (in case this is the wrong place to ask, just tell me if i should go to #emacs with my question, but i thought some lispers might use these modes)
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2020-04-14T12:47:38Z _death: MetaYan: on sbcl it uses search, pushnew, sort for each package, delete-duplicates, mapcan, sort for package names..
2020-04-14T12:48:15Z jcowan: The definition of short-float looks outright bizarre.
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2020-04-14T12:48:58Z jcowan: As for 13.1.4.3.4, it reflects ignorance about the Real World, not about Unicode; it is simply not true that every character with inherent case is part of a casing pair
2020-04-14T12:49:59Z phoe: jcowan: yep
2020-04-14T12:50:20Z Bike: is there one of those "things programmers erroneously believe about scripts" to go with the ones on time and names
2020-04-14T12:50:20Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said 8 hours, 43 minutes ago: lets sort out the backtrace stuff in the AM
2020-04-14T12:50:37Z jcowan: I thought at first that short-float was meant to fit into a PDP-10 halfword, but PDP-10 floats are sign-magnitude like IEEE, so it would require 19 bits.  Weird, weird, weird
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2020-04-14T12:51:17Z Bike: yeah eighteen bits is a weird minimum
2020-04-14T12:51:22Z Bike: i guess it's only a recommendation, though
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2020-04-14T12:59:19Z jcowan: I note that on 32-bit LispWorks, short-float gets 19-bit precision, but that's all I know about it.
2020-04-14T13:01:03Z jcowan: LW internals docs seems to be lacking
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2020-04-14T13:17:06Z p_l: jcowan: PDP-10 floating point was full-word anyway, iirc
2020-04-14T13:17:42Z jcowan: yes, but the CL group must have had something in mind when they set those limits
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2020-04-14T15:41:34Z phoe: fun stuff: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Revision-18.lisp compiles on modern CL with only minor minor issues
2020-04-14T15:41:54Z phoe: I'll ask Kent if I can polish this code a little, downcase all of it, and put it on Quicklisp as a loadable module.
2020-04-14T15:48:35Z heisig: phoe: Yes, that's an interesting read.  Thanks for sharing!
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2020-04-14T15:59:03Z jmercouris: best way to edit or add value in plist? I have '(:salmon "chinook"), I want to add :potato if non-existent or set it's value to 20
2020-04-14T15:59:07Z jmercouris: something in Alexandria?
2020-04-14T15:59:19Z phoe: jmercouris: setf getf
2020-04-14T15:59:27Z jmercouris: giving me errors right now
2020-04-14T15:59:31Z jmercouris: (getf (list :NAME SOCKET-THREAD :INITARGS NIL :INITFORM 10) :INITFORM 20)
2020-04-14T15:59:33Z phoe: what sorta errors
2020-04-14T15:59:34Z jmercouris: how come?
2020-04-14T15:59:43Z jmercouris: ignore that it is unquoted
2020-04-14T15:59:45Z jmercouris: that is not the error
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2020-04-14T16:00:08Z jmercouris: give me a second, I'll post
2020-04-14T16:00:08Z phoe: (getf (list :NAME 'SOCKET-THREAD :INITARGS NIL :INITFORM 10) :INITFORM 20) ;=> 10
2020-04-14T16:00:12Z phoe: can't see the error yet
2020-04-14T16:00:14Z jmercouris: yes, that is so far correct
2020-04-14T16:00:32Z jmercouris: (setf (getf '(:NAME "salmon" :INITARGS NIL :INITFORM NIL) :INITFORM) 20)
2020-04-14T16:00:50Z phoe: you are setfing a literal
2020-04-14T16:01:05Z phoe: (let ((plist (list :NAME 'SOCKET-THREAD :INITARGS NIL :INITFORM 10))) (setf (getf plist :foo) :bar) plist) ;=> (:FOO :BAR :NAME SOCKET-THREAD :INITARGS NIL :INITFORM 10)
2020-04-14T16:01:09Z beach: jmercouris: You can find the "free" chapters of the AMOP here: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/table-of-contents.html
2020-04-14T16:01:22Z phoe: you need to set a place, and '(...) is *not* a place
2020-04-14T16:01:28Z TMA: setf generally needs a place to set -- for a place of the form (getf ...) the ... needs to be a place too
2020-04-14T16:01:37Z phoe: that's like (setf "foo" ...)
2020-04-14T16:01:47Z jmercouris: OK, you are right, that was silly
2020-04-14T16:01:57Z jmercouris: is there a way to not SETF and maybe just return an edited form of the list?
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2020-04-14T16:02:09Z jmercouris: I don't actually care to edit the list itself, I just want a modified version of it
2020-04-14T16:02:09Z phoe: list*
2020-04-14T16:02:17Z phoe: (list* :foo :bar plist)
2020-04-14T16:02:31Z jmercouris: I already have the list
2020-04-14T16:02:34Z jmercouris: can I (list list*)?
2020-04-14T16:02:36Z phoe: due to how plists work, if :FOO is later on the plist, it will be ignored because a new :FOO is earlier there
2020-04-14T16:02:39Z jmercouris: sorry (list* list)
2020-04-14T16:02:51Z phoe: (list* list) === list
2020-04-14T16:03:03Z phoe: what do you mean, you already have the list?
2020-04-14T16:03:07Z phoe: you mean the modified one?
2020-04-14T16:03:12Z jmercouris: the unmodified one
2020-04-14T16:03:21Z jmercouris: I have a list X I want to transform to Y
2020-04-14T16:03:24Z phoe: then just return (list* :foo :bar '(:NAME "salmon" :INITARGS NIL :INITFORM NIL))
2020-04-14T16:03:26Z jmercouris: the list X is given to me by someone else
2020-04-14T16:03:30Z beach: jmercouris: So do what phoe suggested.
2020-04-14T16:03:32Z phoe: (list* :foo :bar X)
2020-04-14T16:03:43Z jmercouris: X is a plist
2020-04-14T16:03:44Z TMA: jmercouris: you want to use (list* key-form value-form plist-form) for suitable forms
2020-04-14T16:03:46Z phoe: jmercouris: yes
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2020-04-14T16:04:11Z jmercouris: I can be a bit dense, let me look again :-D
2020-04-14T16:04:21Z beach: clhs list*
2020-04-14T16:04:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_.htm
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2020-04-14T16:05:57Z jmercouris: why not (list* X)?
2020-04-14T16:06:02Z jmercouris: is there something I'm not getting here?
2020-04-14T16:06:23Z jmercouris: (defparameter x '(:NAME SOCKET-THREAD))
2020-04-14T16:06:32Z _death: phoe: I don't think that's how plists work.. that is how alists work however
2020-04-14T16:06:34Z jmercouris: (list* x) -> (:NAME SOCKET-THREAD)
2020-04-14T16:06:46Z beach: *sigh*
2020-04-14T16:06:48Z phoe: _death: they work that way
2020-04-14T16:06:58Z phoe: jmercouris: yes, there is something you are not getting here
2020-04-14T16:07:05Z phoe: give more than one argument to LIST*
2020-04-14T16:07:10Z phoe: try (list* :foo :bar x)
2020-04-14T16:07:29Z jmercouris: right, why would I want that
2020-04-14T16:07:30Z beach: jmercouris: phoe is assuming X is the unmodified plist, and that you want to add :foo :bar to it.
2020-04-14T16:07:43Z jmercouris: ah, I see now what you are trying to do
2020-04-14T16:07:46Z jmercouris: Ah, very clever
2020-04-14T16:07:47Z phoe: jmercouris: because you want a modified plist
2020-04-14T16:07:50Z phoe: not the original one
2020-04-14T16:07:55Z jmercouris: yes, you are making sense
2020-04-14T16:07:58Z _death: phoe: for example, remf only removes the first property
2020-04-14T16:07:59Z phoe: _death: (defstruct foo bar) (make-foo :bar 42 :bar :forty-two :bar "42") ;=> #S(FOO :BAR 42)
2020-04-14T16:08:00Z jmercouris: and you are relying that getf gets the first one
2020-04-14T16:08:03Z jmercouris: I get it
2020-04-14T16:09:39Z jmercouris: now I am not sure that will work though
2020-04-14T16:09:39Z phoe: jmercouris here wants a plist that is an initialization plist - or that is at least what I assume
2020-04-14T16:09:39Z jmercouris: the plist is a slot actually
2020-04-14T16:09:39Z phoe: what sort of a slot?
2020-04-14T16:09:39Z jmercouris: (mopu:slot-properties (find-class 'xyz) 'qrt)
2020-04-14T16:09:39Z beach: jmercouris: A slot is a place, so why did you reject using a place.
2020-04-14T16:09:39Z jmercouris: and I'm trying to change the initform
2020-04-14T16:09:40Z jmercouris: I am actually making a new defclass form using the OLD slot as a template
2020-04-14T16:09:40Z jmercouris: I'm not changing the old class, that is why
2020-04-14T16:09:41Z beach: jmercouris: So the plist is *not* in a slot.  It is in an initform.
2020-04-14T16:09:56Z phoe: jmercouris: wait, you cannot (SETF MOPU:SLOT-PROPERTIES)
2020-04-14T16:10:00Z jmercouris: No you cannot
2020-04-14T16:10:04Z jmercouris: you are all correct
2020-04-14T16:10:06Z jmercouris: let me shed some light here
2020-04-14T16:10:11Z phoe: what are you actually trying to do then
2020-04-14T16:10:13Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/1W3PVQC
2020-04-14T16:10:16Z jmercouris: this will clarify all
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2020-04-14T16:10:46Z jmercouris: here is the point: http://dpaste.com/0E58JK3
2020-04-14T16:11:00Z jmercouris: I'm trying to make a simple macro for users to define their own configuration in Next
2020-04-14T16:11:21Z _death: phoe: another example, if get-properties is used, a property may be processed more than once in such a list.. traditionally, alists are expected to have this traditional acons-to-shadow behavior, while property lists are expected to be modified in place
2020-04-14T16:11:55Z phoe: _death: huh! that's inconsistent
2020-04-14T16:13:34Z phoe: jmercouris: so you want to gut out the details of an existing plist
2020-04-14T16:13:38Z _death: so if you want to have a "functional" plist, a pcons operator could look like (list* key value (sans plist key))
2020-04-14T16:13:48Z phoe: alexandria:remove-from-plist is better for that
2020-04-14T16:14:02Z jmercouris: _death: are you telling me there is no guarantee that list* will work because it may collect all of the values?
2020-04-14T16:14:04Z phoe: it accepts multiple keys
2020-04-14T16:14:11Z phoe: jmercouris: what do you mean, "not work"
2020-04-14T16:14:17Z phoe: list* is just a consing operator
2020-04-14T16:14:22Z phoe: it creates conses
2020-04-14T16:14:22Z jmercouris: (list* :initiform 30 x)
2020-04-14T16:14:32Z jmercouris: yes, but getf may retrieve ALL the initform values
2020-04-14T16:14:39Z jmercouris: if I understand _death correctly
2020-04-14T16:14:40Z phoe: clhs getf
2020-04-14T16:14:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm
2020-04-14T16:14:47Z jmercouris: what was he saying about shadowing then?
2020-04-14T16:14:52Z phoe: "If there are multiple properties[1] with that property indicator, getf uses the first such property."
2020-04-14T16:14:58Z jmercouris: OK, so then no problem
2020-04-14T16:15:02Z jmercouris: I can use list*
2020-04-14T16:15:20Z jmercouris: I don't know however how defclass is actually implemented
2020-04-14T16:15:28Z jmercouris: maybe it will complain if there are multiple initforms
2020-04-14T16:15:32Z phoe: watch out though.
2020-04-14T16:15:35Z phoe: (defclass foo () ((bar :initform 42 :initform :forty-two :initform "42"))) is an error.
2020-04-14T16:15:44Z jmercouris: right, so I will have to use the alexandria function you've linked
2020-04-14T16:16:12Z _death: remove-from-plist used to be named sans (after Naggum's), did it not?
2020-04-14T16:16:38Z phoe: _death: in alexandria? I have no idea
2020-04-14T16:16:41Z _death: alexandria still contains it, but it's no longer exported..
2020-04-14T16:17:24Z phoe: hah, correct
2020-04-14T16:18:53Z phoe: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/-/commit/57badd5e7305474242b2a89226f93cf8485e34b9
2020-04-14T16:19:02Z phoe: 13 years ago
2020-04-14T16:19:10Z jmercouris: yay I did it!
2020-04-14T16:19:11Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/2GPDAJW
2020-04-14T16:19:16Z phoe: <3
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2020-04-14T16:20:33Z Bike: if you're just customizing a slot that's defined in a superclass you don't need to copy the rest of the slot definition plist.
2020-04-14T16:20:48Z jmercouris: Bike: how not?
2020-04-14T16:21:16Z jmercouris: the accessor will be overwritten etc
2020-04-14T16:21:22Z phoe: jmercouris: the earlier key-value pairs will be taken from the superclass
2020-04-14T16:21:26Z jmercouris: are you sure?
2020-04-14T16:21:30Z jmercouris: I'm pretty sure that is not true
2020-04-14T16:21:31Z Bike: quite sure.
2020-04-14T16:21:37Z Bike: let me find the clhs page.
2020-04-14T16:21:42Z jmercouris: I swear I had this exact problem from a user
2020-04-14T16:22:04Z Bike: but you can also try (defclass foo () ((bar :accessor bar :initform 1))) (defclass foo2 (foo) ((bar :initform 2))), and then (bar (make-instance 'foo2)) => 2
2020-04-14T16:22:09Z Bike: so the accessor works fine.
2020-04-14T16:22:24Z jmercouris: damn
2020-04-14T16:22:27Z jmercouris: all that work for nothing
2020-04-14T16:22:27Z Bike: clhs 7.5.3
2020-04-14T16:22:27Z specbot: Inheritance of Slots and Slot Options: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ec.htm
2020-04-14T16:22:29Z phoe: (defclass foo () ((bar :initform 42))) (defclass baz (foo) ((bar :accessor bar))) (bar (make-instance 'baz)) ;=> 42
2020-04-14T16:22:30Z Bike: Explains all the rules
2020-04-14T16:22:38Z phoe: jmercouris: not for nothing, your code is now simpler
2020-04-14T16:22:51Z jmercouris: that's true, it is nice
2020-04-14T16:23:05Z phoe: note how one defclass defines the initform but the other defines the accessor
2020-04-14T16:23:20Z phoe: and in the end everything is like "oh yeah it's all coming together"
2020-04-14T16:24:22Z jmercouris: right
2020-04-14T16:24:31Z Bike: mop also lets you customize these inheritance rules, if you need to
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2020-04-14T16:26:40Z jmercouris: simplified: http://dpaste.com/3R8W3DS
2020-04-14T16:26:42Z jmercouris: et voila!
2020-04-14T16:30:27Z _death: careful.. your macro refers to a special variable *renderer-class*.. this means it may not be idempotent..
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2020-04-14T16:37:03Z Grue`: Xach: is Planet Lisp auto-updated? I've been wondering why my last blog post never showed up on it
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2020-04-14T17:01:23Z phoe: I'm at 72 pages of my book; everything that is not related to the debugger and/or the book afterwords or the condition system reference appendix is more or less complete
2020-04-14T17:02:39Z phoe: it's funny how all of it happened because I got annoyed at a blogpost two weeks ago
2020-04-14T17:05:48Z jcowan: You were writing it to scratch your own itch, which is one of the best reasons for writing.
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2020-04-14T17:06:37Z phoe: jcowan: yes
2020-04-14T17:07:00Z jcowan lost the URL 
2020-04-14T17:08:08Z phoe: https://gist.github.com/phoe/5659f8e5d8ff85e99565de17e39e4449
2020-04-14T17:08:23Z jcowan: Ta
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2020-04-14T17:13:09Z jcowan: I like your calling C a lingua franca; it suggests that it is not only widely known but rather crude and limited
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2020-04-14T17:13:21Z phoe: ~
2020-04-14T17:13:29Z jcowan: though of course nowadays full languages like English, French, Spanish, and Swahili are lingua francas too
2020-04-14T17:14:16Z phoe: I could also call it the lowest common denominator, I guess it'll achieve the same thing
2020-04-14T17:14:48Z ebrasca: jcowan: Spanish is very good language.
2020-04-14T17:15:16Z jcowan: Of course.
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2020-04-14T17:18:48Z jcowan: The historic Lingua Franca used throughout the Mediterranean had a very simplified Romance grammar and varying amounts of Portuguese, Spanish, Occitan, French, Arabic, Berber, Greek, and Turkish
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2020-04-14T17:21:08Z p_l: Some of those are partially derived from said lingua franca, let's not put cart before horse
2020-04-14T17:22:06Z jcowan: Here's a sample: "Se ti sabir / Ti respondir; / Se non sabir, / Tazir, tazir. / Mi star Mufti: / Ti qui star ti? / Non intendir: / Tazir, tazir."  That should be pretty clear to any hispanohablante except for "tazir" = "callar".
2020-04-14T17:23:50Z ATuin: also "start" sounds weird for hispanohablantes :D
2020-04-14T17:23:59Z ATuin: but besides those it's pretty close to actual spanish
2020-04-14T17:24:10Z jcowan: star = estar
2020-04-14T17:24:13Z ATuin: *start sorry
2020-04-14T17:24:27Z ATuin: jcowan: yeah but there it means more like "ser"
2020-04-14T17:24:35Z jcowan: Yes, LF makes no distinction
2020-04-14T17:24:59Z phoe: I love how #lisp turns into #linguistics sometimes
2020-04-14T17:25:36Z ATuin: anyway, i think all the romace languages are quite similar, at least when reading them
2020-04-14T17:25:46Z jcowan: anywhere with jcowan in it turns into #linguistics sometimes
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2020-04-14T17:28:51Z jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca#Example_of_%22Sabir%22 gives both word for word equivalents and actual translations into IT ES CA GL PT OC LA
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2020-04-14T17:34:35Z Grue`: I'd argue that Javascript is more of a lingua franca these days
2020-04-14T17:35:06Z phoe: while you're technically correct, you will never force me to put javascript code in my book
2020-04-14T17:35:16Z lieven: kind of funny that the actual Frankish is a West Germanic language
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2020-04-14T17:38:26Z beach: Can we please stick to the channel topic?
2020-04-14T17:38:56Z phoe: ^
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2020-04-14T17:41:41Z jcowan throws (in the nicest possible way) beach at the channel topic, where he sticks with great force.
2020-04-14T17:42:35Z phoe: that's... sticky
2020-04-14T17:43:00Z phoe throws (in the nicest possible way) jcowan at #lispcafe, where the topic of linguistics should most likely go
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2020-04-14T18:00:20Z Xach: Grue`: it is auto-updated
2020-04-14T18:00:56Z Xach: Grue`: what name is it under? (sorry, can't always keep nick->name mapping in my memory)
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2020-04-14T18:08:46Z Xach: Grue`: email me about it if you like - i am afk for a while.
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2020-04-14T19:05:59Z phoe: Got a reply from kmp. I'm free to use his implementation.
2020-04-14T19:06:20Z phoe: Time to downcase all the symbols...
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2020-04-14T19:07:53Z heisig: Great!
2020-04-14T19:08:08Z phoe: I'll likely also want to integrate that system with the standard CL one.
2020-04-14T19:09:01Z phoe: Like, (+ 2 "2") will #'CL:ERROR a CL:TYPE-ERROR. I need to actually somehow turn it into V18:ERRORing a V18:TYPE-ERROR instead if I want the piggybacking condition system to feel somewhat natural.
2020-04-14T19:09:21Z phoe: But I'll hack that later. Let's ASDFify this codebase first...
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2020-04-14T19:14:38Z ATuin: regarding ASDF, is there any way not to include the current directory into the source-registry
2020-04-14T19:15:03Z ATuin: seems that it's including my $HOME and it takes lot of time to resolve systems
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2020-04-14T19:15:59Z Josh_2: hmm asdf does not include my $HOME
2020-04-14T19:16:09Z ATuin: mmm strange then
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2020-04-14T19:16:43Z ATuin: ahh i forgot to say that the program is created using scbl:save-lisp-and-die
2020-04-14T19:16:46Z ATuin: can that be related
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2020-04-14T19:17:21Z ATuin: indeed when using sbcl from the cli i dont see my home in the source-registry
2020-04-14T19:17:40Z ATuin: but when i run that program i can see that the current directory is added
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2020-04-14T19:22:38Z phoe: Is there a way to tell emacs that it should downcase the whole file, except for the strings?
2020-04-14T19:22:46Z phoe: And possibly for the comments.
2020-04-14T19:23:06Z phoe: I basically want the Lisp symbols to stop screaming at me.
2020-04-14T19:24:45Z Grue`: is it perhaps possible to pretty-print this code to downcase it?
2020-04-14T19:25:39Z Grue`: it will strip the comments though...
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2020-04-14T19:29:32Z gendl: Hi, does anyone know how to use the :function option for setting up asdf output translations?
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2020-04-14T19:30:31Z gendl: I'd like just part of the relative path of the input file to end up in the output file, and under a root directory of my choosing.
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2020-04-14T19:31:20Z gendl: I'm not sure 1. where the :function (lambda(...) ...)   is supposed to go within the call to initialize-output-translations,  and 2. what is the second argument supposed to be ("directory designator").
2020-04-14T19:31:43Z gendl: basically I just want to give a function which takes the source directory (or file), and transforms it to my desired output directory.
2020-04-14T19:32:29Z gendl: this is what I'm trying:
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2020-04-14T19:32:39Z gendl: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/geGYcgU9/
2020-04-14T19:33:18Z gendl: I have no idea what to do with the `dir' argument, and this gives error of "Invalid output translation"
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2020-04-14T19:51:50Z gendl: phoe: have you tried setting (readtable-case *readtable* :invert)  to stop the screaming symbols?
2020-04-14T19:54:35Z pjb: phoe: downcase-lisp and downcase-lisp-region
2020-04-14T19:54:46Z pjb: phoe: in github.com/informatimago/emacs
2020-04-14T19:54:50Z Xach: Grue`: thanks for the email. i found and fixed the problem.
2020-04-14T19:55:42Z phoe: gendl: I don't want to print all of it; I'll lose comments and formatting.
2020-04-14T19:55:44Z phoe: pjb: let me try.
2020-04-14T19:56:05Z pjb: in pjb-sources.el
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2020-04-14T19:56:39Z phoe: ooookay, now, let me figure out how to load elisp code...
2020-04-14T19:56:42Z phoe dives into ielm
2020-04-14T19:57:15Z gendl: nobody with any guidance on output-translations? 😰
2020-04-14T19:57:21Z pjb: check github.com/informatimago/rc   starting from emacs.el
2020-04-14T19:57:27Z phoe: gendl: I know nothing about these, sadly
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2020-04-14T20:00:53Z phoe: pjb: it's hard for me to only get the part that I want. It seems that I'll need to literally clone all of your emacs config and use it to be able to utilize downcase-lisp.
2020-04-14T20:01:39Z Xach: that is the Ironclad story
2020-04-14T20:02:04Z eta: hehehe
2020-04-14T20:02:16Z phoe: pjb: could you downcase-lisp https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1746#1746 and send it back to me?
2020-04-14T20:02:22Z eta: hey, lemme just sha1 this real quick
2020-04-14T20:02:29Z eta: *10 minutes of compiling later*
2020-04-14T20:02:41Z phoe: Sorry to ask - I'm just completely puzzled by how to utilize that function from your config.
2020-04-14T20:03:10Z Xach: eta: not only that, but it's impossible to use *just* the sha1 code in another project - it's all deeply intertwined.
2020-04-14T20:03:31Z Xach wound up writing a smaller, slower version instead
2020-04-14T20:03:53Z eta: ouch
2020-04-14T20:04:04Z eta: I mean for my WhatsApp library I needed the rest of ironclad anyway
2020-04-14T20:04:29Z phoe: perhaps we could write ironclad-penne
2020-04-14T20:04:42Z phoe: as opposed to the current ironclad-spaghetti
2020-04-14T20:08:49Z Grue`: Xach: nice, although the twitter bot wouldn't tweet it now I guess
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2020-04-14T20:14:47Z gendl: In case anyone cares, I got the syntax working finally:
2020-04-14T20:14:54Z gendl: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/T3oM6Xeg/
2020-04-14T20:15:33Z gendl: So, that's how you can specify a lambda function to explicitly translate a source pathname to the output fasl pathname.
2020-04-14T20:16:04Z gendl: this is now doing what I need. Thanks for letting me talk to myself here... :)
2020-04-14T20:16:36Z phoe: gendl: please turn that into a small blogpost
2020-04-14T20:16:47Z phoe: this is rare information and might be of use to someone in the future
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2020-04-14T20:17:25Z gendl: phoe: will do. I'll try to resurrect my old blogger. It will be my second blog post in about 9 years.
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2020-04-14T20:18:29Z Grue`: a fellow rare-blogging lisper!
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2020-04-14T20:22:53Z phoe: pjb: managed to do it myself. Thanks for the link.
2020-04-14T20:23:54Z Xach: Grue`: oh, it will, but that takes time too
2020-04-14T20:26:44Z phoe: Xach: want to add another blog to planet lisp?
2020-04-14T20:27:04Z phoe: https://nl.movim.eu/?blog/phoe%40movim.eu
2020-04-14T20:31:25Z Xach: phoe: hmm, looks too high traffic for planet lisp
2020-04-14T20:33:16Z phoe: Xach: high traffic?
2020-04-14T20:33:51Z phoe: I wonder if this is ironic since the last post was today and the previous post happened on April 2019
2020-04-14T20:34:22Z Xach: it is ironic
2020-04-14T20:34:33Z Xach: Welcome...to Planet Lisp (in jurassic park guy voice)
2020-04-14T20:34:43Z eta gasps
2020-04-14T20:34:47Z eta: phoe, another XMPP users
2020-04-14T20:34:51Z eta: user*
2020-04-14T20:34:58Z phoe: yayyyy
2020-04-14T20:35:03Z phoe: eta: yes
2020-04-14T20:35:11Z Xach: Grue`: you got tweetinated
2020-04-14T20:35:23Z eta: we need to form a lisp xmpp community
2020-04-14T20:35:36Z eta: because there'll totally be people who'll go on board with that, 100% yes
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2020-04-14T20:36:33Z phoe: eta: IRC is good enough for many
2020-04-14T20:36:40Z eta nods
2020-04-14T20:36:45Z eta: for sure
2020-04-14T20:36:53Z Xach: sometimes people reply to https://twitter.com/newlisprepos and it makes me sad, since that is a bot and does not read any replies.
2020-04-14T20:37:10Z phoe: Xach: fix the bot then to forward the replies to you!
2020-04-14T20:37:18Z Shinmera: doesn't help that twitter shut down tweet streams :/
2020-04-14T20:38:38Z Xach: Shinmera: thanks for chirp, it has been handy
2020-04-14T20:38:44Z mason: So, this is probably old news here, but: https://www.didierverna.net/blog/index.php?post/2020/04/14/ELS-2020-happening-online%2C-and-for-free
2020-04-14T20:38:53Z Xach: i power 100% of my twitter bots with chirp
2020-04-14T20:38:54Z Shinmera: Xach: Glad to hear!
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2020-04-14T20:58:45Z Bike: I forget, does CL/MOP/whatever define what order effectuve slots appear in? Specifically for their locations... I'm thinking no, but I'm not sure.
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2020-04-14T21:02:42Z LdBeth: good morning
2020-04-14T21:03:43Z Josh_2: Mornin
2020-04-14T21:03:46Z phoe: evening
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2020-04-14T22:22:52Z Xach: phoe: lispm replied on twitter to a bot about your post
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2020-04-14T23:37:25Z markasoftware: How can I set the value of a lexical variable, given the symbol for it?
2020-04-14T23:37:40Z markasoftware: i can't use setq or setf because they're macros and i only have the symbol
2020-04-14T23:38:13Z Xach: markasoftware: you can't.
2020-04-14T23:38:40Z Xach: If that's what you got, you need to use something other than a lexical variable.
2020-04-14T23:38:46Z markasoftware: ok
2020-04-14T23:38:55Z Xach: markasoftware: what situation prompts the question?
2020-04-14T23:39:22Z markasoftware: i have a whole bunch of arguments to my function that aren't quite in the form I want them to be in.
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2020-04-14T23:39:39Z markasoftware: eg, they can either be a number, representing seconds, or something like (75 :min), which i want to convert to seconds
2020-04-14T23:40:19Z markasoftware: there are many of these arguments, so I thought I would (dolist) over the symbols for the arguments, setting each one to the number of seconds it represents
2020-04-14T23:40:31Z markasoftware: so that i can use the same variable names throughout my function as specified in the lambda-list
2020-04-14T23:40:39Z Xach: markasoftware: ah. if i were in that situation, i would use macrolet
2020-04-14T23:41:08Z Xach: and expand into code to make the change
2020-04-14T23:41:42Z markasoftware: interesting
2020-04-14T23:41:46Z markasoftware: that could work
2020-04-14T23:43:00Z markasoftware: yep. Thanks!
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2020-04-15T00:50:28Z shukryzablah: Is there another way to see quicklisp download stats other than the sporadic posts in blog.quicklisp.org?
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2020-04-15T00:54:01Z Xach: shukryzablah: no
2020-04-15T00:54:16Z Xach: shukryzablah: what stats info interests you?
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2020-04-15T00:58:59Z shukryzablah: i wanted to make a quick plot of daily downloads or monthly downloads, for specific packages, through time
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2020-04-15T01:04:14Z shukryzablah: Xach: just wanted to check if there was an easier way to get them
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2020-04-15T02:25:28Z alandipert: are there alternatives to asdf?
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2020-04-15T02:25:58Z [rg]: are you guys familiar with car and cdr origins?
2020-04-15T02:25:59Z Bike: nothing from this millenium, i think... maybe allegro or whoever has something?
2020-04-15T02:26:04Z Bike: [rg]: the names? sure
2020-04-15T02:26:24Z [rg]: what about the assembly code behind it
2020-04-15T02:26:39Z Bike: you mean on a PDP or on a modern machine?
2020-04-15T02:27:00Z [rg]: I'm reading ken thompsons regular expression paper and it's been hard to parse, folks in #asm have been kind enough though
2020-04-15T02:27:13Z [rg]: it was on an ibm acutally
2020-04-15T02:27:25Z no-defun-allowed: CAR and CDR refer to "contents of the address part of register" and "contents of the decrement part of register", which are names that refer to parts of a word on the IBM 704.
2020-04-15T02:27:37Z Bike: oh, my mmistake
2020-04-15T02:27:45Z Bike: ancient machines from before the beginning of time, as far as i'm concerned
2020-04-15T02:27:58Z [rg]: lol yeah :P
2020-04-15T02:28:03Z no-defun-allowed: "Type A instructions have, in sequence, a 3-bit prefix (instruction code), a 15-bit decrement field, a 3-bit tag field, and a 15-bit address field." I would presume those names refer to those two fields.
2020-04-15T02:28:51Z [rg]: hm, I assumed this channel would be full of compiler enthusiasts, is that true?
2020-04-15T02:29:03Z no-defun-allowed: There are a few, yes.
2020-04-15T02:29:08Z [rg]: no-defun-allowed yes I'm reading that now as well
2020-04-15T02:29:52Z [rg]: have you seen this technique implemented on x86?
2020-04-15T02:30:28Z [rg]: I also don't get the index by decrement
2020-04-15T02:30:34Z no-defun-allowed: On older machines, a word could fit two pointers, whereas now we usually have one pointer per word, so the representation is a bit different.
2020-04-15T02:30:36Z Bike: by "this technique" what do you mean? CAR? This paper about regular expressions? I'm sorry, it's hard to follow your point.
2020-04-15T02:30:49Z [rg]: car and cdr
2020-04-15T02:31:18Z Bike: usually they're just regular memory loads.
2020-04-15T02:31:35Z Bike: a cons consists of two words, both tagged pointers.
2020-04-15T02:31:47Z no-defun-allowed: A CONS is usually represented as a pointer (with the low bits set to something that tells us we have a CONS) to two words in memory next to each other.
2020-04-15T02:32:14Z Bike: x86 doesn't have dedicated tag bits or anything, but you can just use regular bit instructions to get the same effects
2020-04-15T02:32:26Z [rg]: so it's not a real pointer?
2020-04-15T02:32:37Z no-defun-allowed: To take the CAR or CDR of this CONS, you would want to take off the bits, and load the value at the pointer plus the offset from that value to the field you want.
2020-04-15T02:32:40Z [rg]: "low bits tells us its CONS"
2020-04-15T02:32:51Z Bike: Yeah, it'll be a pointer + 1, or something.
2020-04-15T02:33:02Z Bike: since pointers are generally word aligned anyway, the low bits would be all zeroes normally
2020-04-15T02:33:10Z no-defun-allowed: It's not usable directly, no. But after some simple bit manipulation, you can get a "real" pointer.
2020-04-15T02:33:25Z [rg]: interesting
2020-04-15T02:34:38Z no-defun-allowed: On a x86 machine, you can perform that manipulation in the load, eg MOV RAX, [RBX - 1] for a CAR or MOV RAX, [RBX + 7] for a CDR
2020-04-15T02:35:06Z [rg]: ok ok
2020-04-15T02:35:24Z [rg]: so it's just that this architecture was perfect for cons car and cdr
2020-04-15T02:35:28Z alandipert: also it doesn't have to be a pointer, it can be an integer for example, with the appropriate tag
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2020-04-15T02:35:38Z [rg]: that makes more sense
2020-04-15T02:35:59Z Bike: x86 is an adequate lisp machine, as they say
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2020-04-15T02:37:23Z [rg]: damn holding two address in one register move though
2020-04-15T02:37:57Z [rg]: when people do lisp in fpga are they aware of this?
2020-04-15T02:38:06Z no-defun-allowed: "Do you intend to hire your own engineers and buy your own machines to make a 7nm lispm", as they probably don't say.
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2020-04-15T02:38:42Z [rg]: also another unrelated question, how do you handle the cache in lisp when you use linked lists?
2020-04-15T02:38:58Z no-defun-allowed: I think Lisp machines had CONS representations in two words. One needs to be a pointer away to the values of a CONS to allow for mutation, anyway.
2020-04-15T02:38:59Z Bike: switch to vectors
2020-04-15T02:39:16Z LdBeth: CDR coding
2020-04-15T02:39:21Z no-defun-allowed: If you're lucky, you have a good garbage collector that allocates CONSes next to each other.
2020-04-15T02:39:29Z pjb: alandipert: yes, there is poiu; it's even better than asdf, since it can compile in parallel!
2020-04-15T02:39:33Z Bike: CDR coding is "switch to vectors" with extra steps
2020-04-15T02:39:38Z no-defun-allowed: s/a good garbage collector/a good memory system/
2020-04-15T02:39:43Z pjb: alandipert: but it's not maintained anymore. no battery included. And quicklisp doesn't use it.
2020-04-15T02:39:54Z [rg]: interesting
2020-04-15T02:39:56Z [rg]: cool
2020-04-15T02:40:19Z alandipert: pjb thanks, i'll check it out. i'm interested in other paradigms too, whether contemporary or historical, abandoned or in use
2020-04-15T02:40:44Z pjb: alandipert: the precursor was the defsystem macro.  There was several versions.  They can be found in archives.
2020-04-15T02:44:02Z alandipert: consulting my notes i forgot i came across https://github.com/ruricolist/overlord but have yet to try it. curious if anyone else has
2020-04-15T02:44:02Z [rg]: no-defun-allowed do you get this? ...
2020-04-15T02:44:07Z [rg]: "Indexing was a subtractive process on the 704, hence the value to be loaded into an index register was called a "decrement".
2020-04-15T02:44:48Z Bike: i guess it means for an array you'd carry around a pointer to the final element, and get the other elements by subtracting from the address?
2020-04-15T02:44:50Z [rg]: I also haven't tried lisp yet, so there's gonna be a why lisp from me as well
2020-04-15T02:45:15Z [rg]: Bike wow
2020-04-15T02:45:22Z [rg]: you know what, I think that's it
2020-04-15T02:45:24Z no-defun-allowed: Nope, I don't really know anything about how Lisp was implemented back then.
2020-04-15T02:45:34Z [rg]: might explain these weird complement instructions
2020-04-15T02:47:21Z Bike: "The contents of the index registers are subtracted from the base address, " says wikipedia, so yeah
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2020-04-15T02:52:01Z pjb: Bike: exact.  This avoided buffer overflows!!!
2020-04-15T02:52:24Z pjb: (of course, you could have buffer underflows, but this was less probable, since the size was preset in the decrement register.
2020-04-15T02:54:03Z [rg]: ah thats clever
2020-04-15T02:56:11Z [rg]: ok so, is lisp better suited for a vm?
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2020-04-15T02:58:06Z Bike: real machines are perfectly fine.
2020-04-15T02:58:07Z pjb: You can implement a vm in lisp, indeed.
2020-04-15T02:58:17Z pjb: [rg]: define "better".
2020-04-15T02:58:25Z Bike: as no-defun-allowed said, x86 has very extensive addressing modes, and tag bits do not present a problem.
2020-04-15T02:58:40Z [rg]: oh ok
2020-04-15T02:59:04Z [rg]: I just thought you get to make something similar or better for implementing cons cdr and car
2020-04-15T02:59:15Z [rg]: but yeah wow
2020-04-15T03:00:15Z [rg]: I guess if I ever finish this paper I'm gonna implement it in lisp
2020-04-15T03:00:21Z [rg]: and x86 probably
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2020-04-15T03:02:27Z Bike: oh, are you doing the NFA thing?
2020-04-15T03:02:33Z Bike: i did that myself the other day, it's fun
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2020-04-15T03:02:58Z [rg]: it sure seems so
2020-04-15T03:03:02Z [rg]: not there yet
2020-04-15T03:03:04Z Bike: not being able to do capture groups is annoying though
2020-04-15T03:03:16Z Bike: there's some work on doing it but it gets weird since the automaton isn't really finite any more
2020-04-15T03:03:57Z [rg]: I thought the point of this was not to do capture groups
2020-04-15T03:04:04Z [rg]: that requires backtracking
2020-04-15T03:04:30Z [rg]: this just seemed like a really awesome application of regular expressions
2020-04-15T03:05:13Z [rg]: I did see something about PEGS and capture groups though
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2020-04-15T03:11:16Z Bike: well, the point of it is to go really fast, mainly
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2020-04-15T03:12:29Z Bike: the paper for doing capture groups was uh... "Tagged Deterministic Finite Automata with Lookahead", Trofimovich 2017
2020-04-15T03:12:34Z Bike: i don't understand it very well, though
2020-04-15T03:12:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-04-15T03:12:49Z [rg]: hello beach
2020-04-15T03:14:19Z [rg]: 32 pages ... no
2020-04-15T03:14:22Z [rg]: lol
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2020-04-15T03:31:16Z no-defun-allowed: 32 pages is nothing.
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2020-04-15T03:36:11Z LdBeth: Have you heard about the constructing Tetris using game of life thing
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2020-04-15T03:40:38Z pjb: LdBeth: Life is turing complete…  There's even Life in Life!
2020-04-15T03:40:55Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP5-iIeKXE8
2020-04-15T03:41:45Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8unMqSp0bFY
2020-04-15T03:42:40Z LdBeth: Sure, but they made Tetris by first construct a programmable computer and use DMA so there’s no actual display
2020-04-15T03:43:17Z aeth: life is also turing complete
2020-04-15T03:43:46Z LdBeth: Thus not very elegant.
2020-04-15T03:43:52Z aeth: has anyone implemented Life in life?
2020-04-15T03:44:06Z beach: aeth: pjb just showed you that.
2020-04-15T03:44:24Z beach: aeth: And also said that it is Turing complete.
2020-04-15T03:44:30Z aeth: beach: It was a joke. pjb posted "Life in Life" as in "The Game of Life in the Game of Life"
2020-04-15T03:44:42Z aeth: So I said "Life in life" as in, "The Game of Life in biological life"
2020-04-15T03:44:50Z beach: Ah.
2020-04-15T03:44:54Z beach: Sorry.
2020-04-15T03:45:19Z White_Flame: you could implement it on xkcd's field of stones
2020-04-15T03:45:36Z pjb: We'd have to implement microbiology in microbiology.  This could be interesting, to probe molecules (and viruses) before they can infect the "real" life.
2020-04-15T03:45:45Z White_Flame: https://xkcd.com/505/
2020-04-15T03:45:45Z aeth: and hwen you say a word enough (e.g. "life") it no longer looks like a real word, which is always odd when it happens.
2020-04-15T03:45:52Z pjb: Our cells could have cell simulators in them to try new molecues.
2020-04-15T03:45:55Z pjb: +l
2020-04-15T03:48:47Z drmeister: Hello folks. Bike:  Thanks for the heads up that Warning's break compile-file in ASDF.
2020-04-15T03:49:11Z drmeister: That makes it a lot easier to deal with when ASDF throws up a compile-file error.
2020-04-15T03:49:30Z Bike: well, it's that compile-file conceptually fails if any warnings are signaled, independent of asdf
2020-04-15T03:49:40Z Bike: since a warning probably means that at runtime there will be an error
2020-04-15T03:50:24Z Bike: like an unbound variable.
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2020-04-15T03:54:27Z jcowan: Why does warn require that its argument be a warning condition?
2020-04-15T03:54:39Z jcowan: as opposed to error or cerror, which have no such requirements
2020-04-15T03:56:38Z aeth: (warn "hello") works on ECL and SBCL. Is this non-portable behavior?
2020-04-15T03:57:13Z jcowan: I think that's okay because it's cast to a condition rather than being one.
2020-04-15T03:58:09Z Bike: yes, in that case "hello" is a designator for a simple-warning.
2020-04-15T03:59:08Z aeth: Okay, good, because I use WARN in a few places in macros iirc.
2020-04-15T03:59:12Z drmeister: Ugh - I'm using Microsoft Excel as an editor for a language.
2020-04-15T03:59:13Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/4RLhfj77/image.png
2020-04-15T03:59:20Z drmeister: Somebody kill me.
2020-04-15T03:59:42Z Bike: i can't think of any reason warn is stricter.
2020-04-15T04:00:09Z aeth: e.g. if I have a macro language and it removes duplicates as part of its processing, then I'll put that as a WARN since the second, duplicate one won't ever result in executable code... an error would be overkill there since it still works. Sort of like the "deleting unreachable code" note or style-warning or whatever it is (might vary based on implementations, anyway)
2020-04-15T04:00:31Z Bike: it would be nice to know that a muffle-warning restart has been established if you handle a warning, but i guess that's not even true since error can signal a warning and not establish the restart.
2020-04-15T04:01:39Z Bike: a warning is probably a bit strong for unreachable code.
2020-04-15T04:02:11Z Bike: since, again, compile-file signaling (or returning in the extra values) a warning means it failed, and the runtime behavior will have undefined consequences or fail
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2020-04-15T04:15:46Z no-defun-allowed: drmeister: but why?
2020-04-15T04:16:23Z drmeister: So other people can work with it.
2020-04-15T04:16:39Z drmeister: I'm implementing it in Common Lisp.
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2020-04-15T04:43:51Z no-defun-allowed: So the spreadsheet is some kind of template?
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2020-04-15T04:46:43Z drmeister: Yeah - it's describing the chemistry that my company will be doing.
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2020-04-15T04:47:13Z no-defun-allowed: I see. Good luck with that.
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2020-04-15T05:24:39Z shukryzablah: Are there any alternatives to data-table? I need something like a dataframe.
2020-04-15T05:24:55Z beach: What are those?
2020-04-15T05:26:55Z alandipert: sounds like R data structures, a dataframe in R is a list of columns that can carry metadata
2020-04-15T05:27:46Z aeth: dataframe sounds like something in Python machine learning...
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2020-04-15T05:28:02Z aeth: e.g. this: https://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/stable/reference/frame.html
2020-04-15T05:28:08Z beach: I see.  Well, I don't think I will invest in learning R or Python in order to answer the question.
2020-04-15T05:28:22Z shukryzablah: it's a concept in julia, python, and R from what I know.
2020-04-15T05:28:33Z beach: Nor Julia.
2020-04-15T05:28:45Z no-defun-allowed: Is it a 2d array where both "indices" are strings or some other value?
2020-04-15T05:28:46Z alandipert: yeah, numpy and pandas incorporate various R ideas. the closest thing in CL i believe is a list of arrays but you'd have to look to some (library i'm unaware of) for the relational operators you probably want
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2020-04-15T05:30:31Z aeth: it probably exists because everything probably exists
2020-04-15T05:30:40Z aeth: but it also sounds like a lot of work to implement, from what I've encountered in Python
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2020-04-15T05:35:12Z drmeister: Is all of this necessary in a PRINT-OBJECT method?
2020-04-15T05:35:13Z drmeister: (defmethod print-object ((obj iglobal) stream) (print-unreadable-object (obj stream) (format stream "~a ~a" (class-of (class-name obj)) (name obj))))
2020-04-15T05:35:41Z drmeister: The (print-unreadable-object  ...). The (class-name (class-of obj))
2020-04-15T05:35:43Z no-defun-allowed: I think you can give PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT :TYPE T to print the class name for you.
2020-04-15T05:36:05Z drmeister: I pasted a typo
2020-04-15T05:36:16Z pjb: drmeister: print-unreadable-object returns nil, but print-object must return the object.
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2020-04-15T05:37:08Z pjb: drmeister: you can also have a printable readably form of your object (for example, using #. or some custom reader macro), so you may have a if *print-readably* an use print-unreadable-object only in the else branch.
2020-04-15T05:37:52Z pjb: You can use: (print-unreadable-object (obj stream :identity t :type t) …) so you don't have to print the class-of yourself.
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2020-04-15T05:38:52Z shukryzablah: tbh i would like to create the equivalent of R's dplyr, the core is a well thought out data manipulation interface that under the hood could be acting on a database, a spark dataframe, or other sources of data. but in all of this it seems i need to at least be able to start within a data structure in lisp itself, which is why i wanted a data frame
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2020-04-15T05:40:01Z pjb: (let ((obj "foo")) (with-output-to-string (out) (print-unreadable-object (obj out :identity t :type t) (prin1 obj out)))) #| --> "#<(simple-base-string 3) \"foo\" #x30200247EACD>" |#
2020-04-15T05:41:40Z drmeister: :identity t and :type t aren't mentioned in the CLHS
2020-04-15T05:41:45Z drmeister: CLHS print-object
2020-04-15T05:41:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm
2020-04-15T05:41:55Z drmeister: I guess they are sbcl extensions
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2020-04-15T05:42:22Z no-defun-allowed: Those are arguments to print-unreadable-object.
2020-04-15T05:42:30Z no-defun-allowed: clhs print-unreadable-object
2020-04-15T05:42:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pr_unr.htm
2020-04-15T05:42:46Z no-defun-allowed: "print-unreadable-object (object stream &key type identity) form* => nil"
2020-04-15T05:43:12Z drmeister: Argh - ok.  Sorry.  I've been coding for several days for many hours each day.  I'm getting bleary eyed.
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2020-04-15T05:43:54Z alandipert: shukryzablah i think that effort is equivalent to writing an in-memory database, so you may consider finding one and extending and/or using it. starting with a Lisp dataframe and implementing your own language/query engine atop it is another way. are you familiar with apache arrow btw?
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2020-04-15T05:58:44Z shukryzablah: i've only read about it. i felt it would be easier to first work with a lisp data frame instead of some other tool (like arrow) underneath. i'll look into it more
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2020-04-15T06:07:06Z alandipert: shukryzablah though it depends on your needs, i agree a lisp dataframe is almost probably the easiest way to get going. seems like a fun project, enjoy and good luck!
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2020-04-15T06:08:38Z shukryzablah: alandipert: thx!
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2020-04-15T06:17:24Z pjb: drmeister: clhs print-unreadable-object !
2020-04-15T06:17:37Z pjb: ;-)
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2020-04-15T06:32:37Z phoe: Xach: wait what where
2020-04-15T06:33:02Z phoe: < Xach> phoe: lispm replied on twitter to a bot about your post
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2020-04-15T06:39:00Z phoe: oooooh, yes. I see.
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2020-04-15T06:47:17Z phoe: Fixed! Thanks.
2020-04-15T06:47:37Z phoe: (It worked on the kmp condition code, for what it's worth.)
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2020-04-15T07:14:50Z phoe: Xach: somewhat fixed. If possible, please edit the planetlisp post with the new content
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2020-04-15T07:31:02Z phoe: Is there any TRIVIAL-DEBUGGER library that allows one to define behaviour when the debugger is entered while *DEBUGGER-HOOK* is NIL?
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2020-04-15T08:33:58Z phoe: let me make one, then, by gutting out swank...
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2020-04-15T09:04:41Z Shinmera: Dissect was supposed to be able to deliver the basis for that.
2020-04-15T09:05:07Z phoe: But it was not implemented there yet, was it?
2020-04-15T09:05:13Z phoe: I might submit a PR that does so.
2020-04-15T09:05:16Z Shinmera: 'there'?
2020-04-15T09:05:21Z phoe: In Dissect, that is.
2020-04-15T09:05:28Z Shinmera: I don't understand.
2020-04-15T09:05:50Z Shinmera: Dissect provides a portability library for the stack and restarts (and in the future maybe eval-in-frame)
2020-04-15T09:05:57Z phoe: Dissect does not have a way to define my own debugger that will be invoked on #'error or #'break. Is that correct?
2020-04-15T09:05:58Z Shinmera: A portable debugger could be implemented on top of it.
2020-04-15T09:06:06Z Shinmera: That is correct.
2020-04-15T09:06:11Z phoe: OK - I'll work on that then.
2020-04-15T09:06:56Z Shinmera: I've been meaning to make a portable debugger (and a portable repl) for years now but you know how these things go.
2020-04-15T09:07:11Z phoe: oh yes I wholeheartedly do know
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2020-04-15T09:35:10Z phoe: hey wait a second
2020-04-15T09:35:13Z phoe: https://github.com/sharplispers/conium
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2020-04-15T09:36:02Z phoe: I wonder how updated that is though...
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2020-04-15T09:53:06Z phoe: it's mostly dead, sadly. I'll continue to gut out swank.
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2020-04-15T10:00:41Z jackdaniel: how do you determine deadness of a library?
2020-04-15T10:00:55Z jackdaniel: does it smell funny? that only means that it is a lisp library ,-)
2020-04-15T10:02:32Z jackdaniel imagines a library which dies, screaming in agony
2020-04-15T10:04:45Z phoe: jackdaniel: it forked from swank at some point, but it seems that no one's been porting swank modifications to it.
2020-04-15T10:06:00Z jackdaniel: so how about libraries which are not forked from swank? are they immortal?
2020-04-15T10:07:04Z phoe: bleh
2020-04-15T10:07:26Z phoe: fine - compared to swank, conium has much less activity
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2020-04-15T10:34:31Z LdBeth: find the book I ordered in email trashbin...
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2020-04-15T10:44:32Z p_l: ok, where qt-libs standalone are built for commonqt?
2020-04-15T10:44:50Z Shinmera: eh?
2020-04-15T10:45:13Z jackdaniel: on trustme.example.com
2020-04-15T10:45:46Z p_l: Shinmera: I might gather enough anger at the world to channel it into fixes
2020-04-15T10:45:56Z Shinmera: I don't understand your question
2020-04-15T10:46:22Z phoe: p_l: built? what do you mean? I don't think they're built by any sort of CI
2020-04-15T10:46:25Z p_l: Shinmera: I need to change bits of how the dynamic libraries included in qt-libs downloads are built
2020-04-15T10:46:41Z p_l: cause they have hardcoded paths to /User/linus on macos
2020-04-15T10:46:47Z p_l: (as of latest QL dist)
2020-04-15T10:46:51Z Shinmera: They should not, that's a bug.
2020-04-15T10:47:34Z Shinmera: Anyway that fix does not require rebuilding
2020-04-15T10:47:36Z p_l: Shinmera: yeah, that's a bug. it's not the first time I hit it, and I was wondering where I should look for the build scripts so I could help fix it instead of being unpleasant complainer only
2020-04-15T10:48:01Z Shinmera: There are no build scripts because building Qt is a god damn nightmare on every platform and requires manual setup.
2020-04-15T10:48:02Z phoe: p_l: I'm using an earlier release, see https://github.com/phoe-trash/furcadia-post-splitter/blob/master/.travis.yml#L71
2020-04-15T10:48:42Z Shinmera: The fix is to make fix-dylib-collection work better.
2020-04-15T10:49:00Z p_l: Shinmera: at the very least, I need to grab the process that packages them into QL installable release tarball, and inject some changes to the packages
2020-04-15T10:49:05Z Shinmera: You can try running (fix-dylib-collection (uiop:directory-files standalone-dir (make-pathname :type "dylib" :defaults uiop:*wild-path*)))
2020-04-15T10:49:10Z Shinmera: first to see if that changes things.
2020-04-15T10:49:51Z Shinmera: But yes, rolling back to an earlier release for OS X is a fix. I think QL allows pinning packages to a certain release?
2020-04-15T10:50:32Z p_l: Shinmera: it's something that happened to me more than once, so while it would work as temporary fix, I really want to make it stable
2020-04-15T10:51:12Z Shinmera: The way to make it stable is 1) ensure fix-dylib-collection works 2) bother me to update the release binaries on github to include the ones with the properly fixed paths.
2020-04-15T10:51:20Z phoe: p_l: sounds like setting up build infrastructure for qt4
2020-04-15T10:51:29Z Shinmera: phoe: it is not necessary.
2020-04-15T10:51:29Z phoe: god sped you
2020-04-15T10:51:34Z phoe: Shinmera: OK
2020-04-15T10:51:55Z p_l: phoe: I built Qt4 in the past. I also binary patched qt-libs once in the past
2020-04-15T10:53:34Z Shinmera: There used to be build scripts in the past for everything but Qt4, but they were brittle, and now that Qt4 isn't readily available anymore either it's just a mess.
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2020-04-15T11:22:20Z p_l: weeee, got binary patches for qtlibs working
2020-04-15T11:22:31Z p_l: now I'm failing on unknown class in qtools-ui
2020-04-15T11:24:47Z p_l: > There is no class named QTOOLS-UI:FIXED-QTEXTEDIT.
2020-04-15T11:25:11Z p_l: in file qtools-ui-20200218-git/fixed-qtextedit.lisp
2020-04-15T11:25:22Z Shinmera: That's a phoe thing
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2020-04-15T11:26:13Z phoe: wait a second
2020-04-15T11:26:17Z phoe: that's a me thing
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2020-04-15T11:26:49Z phoe: https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools-ui/blob/master/fixed-qtextedit.lisp#L10 that is where that class is defined
2020-04-15T11:26:59Z phoe: how can I reproduce it?
2020-04-15T11:27:28Z phoe: p_l:
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2020-04-15T11:28:28Z p_l: phoe: it fails for me when just quickloading qtools using SBCL on mac
2020-04-15T11:28:31Z p_l: 10.15
2020-04-15T11:28:41Z phoe: p_l: does qtools depend on qui?
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2020-04-15T11:28:51Z Shinmera: Definitely not.
2020-04-15T11:28:51Z phoe: I seriously don't think so, it's the other way around
2020-04-15T11:29:16Z phoe: (ql:quickload :qtools) must not pull qtools-ui
2020-04-15T11:31:40Z phoe: qui doesn't seem to have any darwin- or osx-conditionalized code
2020-04-15T11:31:48Z p_l: fixed-textedit depends on qtools-ui-base
2020-04-15T11:31:58Z phoe: fixed-qtextedit is not a part of qtools
2020-04-15T11:32:02Z phoe: it's a part of qtools-ui
2020-04-15T11:32:35Z p_l: (ql:quickload '("qtools-ui" "hemlock.qt")) ;;; what I executed to get there
2020-04-15T11:32:44Z phoe: so you loaded qui, not qtools
2020-04-15T11:32:48Z phoe: that's clearer now
2020-04-15T11:33:06Z phoe: please give me a stacktrace of (ql:quickload :qtools-ui)
2020-04-15T11:33:12Z phoe: from a clean image, preferably
2020-04-15T11:35:31Z p_l: What I get in SLDB https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/rarXyiEA/qtools-ui-stacktrace.txt
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2020-04-15T11:36:52Z phoe: I am completely puzzled by that stacktrace
2020-04-15T11:37:05Z phoe: the class FIXED-QTEXTEDIT is defined at https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools-ui/blob/master/fixed-qtextedit.lisp#L10
2020-04-15T11:37:27Z p_l: welcome to my world :|
2020-04-15T11:37:49Z phoe: try loading all of that system's dependencies manually and then evaluating code from that file
2020-04-15T11:37:56Z phoe: it works on my Linux machine
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2020-04-15T11:38:55Z phoe: it's erroring on the form (QTOOLS:DEFINE-SUBWIDGET (QTOOLS-UI:FIXED-QTEXTEDIT QTOOLS-UI::FIX-CONTEXT-MENU-WIDGET) ...)
2020-04-15T11:39:03Z p_l: yes
2020-04-15T11:39:04Z phoe: so it's as if that class was not defined at compile time
2020-04-15T11:39:08Z phoe: wtf
2020-04-15T11:39:11Z phoe: why
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2020-04-15T11:39:19Z p_l: an eval-when issue?
2020-04-15T11:40:05Z phoe: cannot be, https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/53d5b603dbff883ec50885d6efeaed92e57dcd26/widget.lisp#L174
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2020-04-15T11:40:59Z phoe: no idea what's going on
2020-04-15T11:41:40Z phoe: again, (ql:quickload :qtools-ui) works on my machine
2020-04-15T11:42:50Z phoe: if it was an eval-when issue then it'd fail everywhere
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2020-04-15T11:45:26Z p_l: curiouser and curiouser
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2020-04-15T12:09:35Z moewe: hey
2020-04-15T12:09:46Z moewe: So I have another issue which I can't seem to make sense of
2020-04-15T12:09:53Z phoe: sup
2020-04-15T12:09:59Z moewe: The value
2020-04-15T12:09:59Z moewe:     (#<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQUAL :COUNT 6 {1004776073}>)
2020-04-15T12:09:59Z moewe:   is not of type
2020-04-15T12:09:59Z moewe:     HASH-TABLE
2020-04-15T12:09:59Z moewe:   when binding HASH-TABLE?
2020-04-15T12:10:05Z phoe: of course it isn't
2020-04-15T12:10:07Z phoe: it is a list
2020-04-15T12:10:10Z phoe: whose CAR is a hash table
2020-04-15T12:10:16Z moewe: CAR?
2020-04-15T12:10:17Z phoe: (note the extra pair of parens!)
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2020-04-15T12:10:24Z phoe: yes, CAR
2020-04-15T12:10:31Z phoe: or rather, first element
2020-04-15T12:10:36Z moewe: ah thanks
2020-04-15T12:10:38Z phoe: are you aware of what a CAR and CDR is?
2020-04-15T12:10:39Z moewe: ohhh
2020-04-15T12:10:44Z moewe: that makes senbse acutally
2020-04-15T12:10:54Z moewe: No, but please tell me if you will
2020-04-15T12:10:57Z phoe: I suggest you do read up on cons cells if you don't - that knowledge will pay you well if you're using Lisp
2020-04-15T12:11:03Z phoe: Lisp lists are made of cons cells
2020-04-15T12:11:09Z phoe: every cons cell has two parts, a car and a cdr
2020-04-15T12:11:15Z phoe: each of these refers to a different Lisp objects.
2020-04-15T12:11:20Z phoe: s/objects/object/
2020-04-15T12:11:26Z phoe: or rather - may refer to a different object
2020-04-15T12:11:46Z phoe: (#<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQUAL :COUNT 6 {1004776073}>) is a cons cell whose CAR is a hash table and whose CDR is NIL
2020-04-15T12:11:50Z phoe: also known as the empty list.
2020-04-15T12:12:02Z phoe: (A B C) is a list made of three cons cells
2020-04-15T12:12:17Z phoe: in cons notation, (A . (B . (C . NIL)))
2020-04-15T12:12:30Z phoe: where the consing dot (the ".") separates the car from the cdr
2020-04-15T12:13:48Z moewe: aah thanks
2020-04-15T12:13:53Z phoe: <3
2020-04-15T12:13:58Z moewe: So why does C also have NIL?
2020-04-15T12:14:07Z phoe: NIL is the empty list
2020-04-15T12:14:09Z moewe: Because it is the final one? Is that like a rule for it?
2020-04-15T12:14:21Z phoe: yes, NIL is the "end" of every proper list
2020-04-15T12:14:32Z phoe: it is possible to have conses like (FOO . BAR)
2020-04-15T12:14:49Z phoe: but every proper list must have NIL as the CDR of its last cons
2020-04-15T12:15:28Z moewe: Ok, so car is the "first" element, but how did you find out from the error string that the CDR is nil?
2020-04-15T12:15:31Z phoe: also, if you want to - #clschool is a good channel for basic Lisp questions, especially if #lisp is busy with a different discussions
2020-04-15T12:15:49Z phoe: I read it from (#<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQUAL :COUNT 6 {1004776073}>)
2020-04-15T12:15:55Z phoe: which was printed by your error stacktrace
2020-04-15T12:16:00Z phoe: (#<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQUAL :COUNT 6 {1004776073}>) === (#<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQUAL :COUNT 6 {1004776073}> . NIL)
2020-04-15T12:16:29Z phoe: (A) is a shorthand notation for (A . NIL)
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2020-04-15T12:16:56Z moewe: So if it would have lets say 2 elements it would be: (#<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQUAL :COUNT 6 {1004776073}> (scnd . NIL))?
2020-04-15T12:17:00Z phoe: ;; and also the *MORE* popular one - you will rarely ever see the latter notation in practice
2020-04-15T12:17:03Z beach: phoe: Hey, you are getting good at explaining stuff!
2020-04-15T12:17:09Z phoe: it would be (a . (b . nil))
2020-04-15T12:17:14Z moewe: oh, right
2020-04-15T12:17:16Z phoe: yours is (a (b . nil)) which is somewhat different
2020-04-15T12:17:25Z phoe: beach: thanks, trying my best!
2020-04-15T12:17:45Z moewe: thanks man, awesome explanation, really! next time I'll go to clschool ^^"
2020-04-15T12:19:22Z phoe: moewe: (a (b . nil)) is (a (b))
2020-04-15T12:19:45Z phoe: which is (a . ((b . nil) . nil))
2020-04-15T12:19:58Z phoe: basically the second element of that list is wrapped in one more list
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2020-04-15T13:05:57Z _death: another day, another use of PROGV
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2020-04-15T13:09:08Z jmercouris: progv?
2020-04-15T13:09:24Z Bike: how exotic.
2020-04-15T13:09:34Z jmercouris: what did you do with it
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2020-04-15T13:11:07Z _death: used it in a regression tester to bind the value of a *verbose* flag to nil in the testee (the regression tester does not directly reference symbols from the testee)
2020-04-15T13:12:03Z beach: jmercouris: Did you see the link I gave you to the freely available AMOP chapters?
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2020-04-15T13:15:17Z Xach: phoe: automagically updated
2020-04-15T13:15:31Z phoe: Xach: thankeeee
2020-04-15T13:15:50Z phoe: progv is useless in 99% of cases and unavoidable in 1% of cases
2020-04-15T13:16:05Z jmercouris: beach: yes, thank you!
2020-04-15T13:16:25Z phoe: I don't think there is any other part of the standard that allows you to bind dynavars fully at runtime where the user can dynamically specify both the dynavar name and the value for the new binding
2020-04-15T13:17:16Z jcowan: well, eval
2020-04-15T13:17:17Z _death: you could use SETs and hope for the best
2020-04-15T13:17:25Z Bike: you can do it yourself with symbol-value and unwind-protect
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2020-04-15T13:17:34Z Bike: although local bindings are generally different on most implementations due to threading
2020-04-15T13:17:40Z Bike: don't think the language designers anticipated that
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2020-04-15T13:18:56Z phoe: Bike: eh, that's kinda cheating
2020-04-15T13:19:03Z phoe: it mutates old bindings instead of creating new ones
2020-04-15T13:19:11Z Bike: what's the difference?
2020-04-15T13:19:12Z phoe: functionally equivalent, but still
2020-04-15T13:19:20Z phoe: in practice? absolutely nothing
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2020-04-15T13:19:37Z Bike: even theoretically, what's the difference? other than the threading i mentioned.
2020-04-15T13:21:11Z _death: there was a LETF operator once...
2020-04-15T13:21:24Z jcowan: Dynavars are reliably reset without taking special precautions with unwind-protect, for one thing.
2020-04-15T13:21:33Z Lycurgus: was war einmal!
2020-04-15T13:21:46Z Bike: jcowan: i don't understand what you mean?
2020-04-15T13:22:27Z Xach: phoe: can you tell me why the indentation in the rss is what it is?
2020-04-15T13:22:28Z jcowan: If you want to do your own binding-equivalent using `set`, you have to make sure you always `set` it back using unwind-protect.
2020-04-15T13:22:54Z phoe: Xach: no idea, let me check.
2020-04-15T13:22:56Z Bike: sure.
2020-04-15T13:23:30Z Bike: but i mean, that's not different? i don't know what you're getting at. the implementation has to do something like unwind-protect for special bindings too.
2020-04-15T13:23:49Z phoe: Xach: it does seem okay in the atom feed - download and inspect the XML file from https://nl.movim.eu/?feed/phoe%40movim.eu
2020-04-15T13:24:58Z beach: Bike: Not with an explicit representation of the dynamic environment + deep binding. :)
2020-04-15T13:25:22Z Bike: mm... right...
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2020-04-15T13:26:15Z _death: I guess one difference is that it only works for special variables, so you lose uniformity
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2020-04-15T13:27:59Z jcowan: This is more or less why Scheme decided to give up on dynamic variables and go with bindable objects:  (parameterize ((foo bar) (baz zam) ... (foo) ... (baz) ...)
2020-04-15T13:28:30Z jcowan: where foo and bar are not bound by the construct, rather their values (functions of a specialized kind) are bound.
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2020-04-15T13:37:10Z phoe: oookay
2020-04-15T13:37:20Z phoe: LispWorks is the only implementation whose debugger I have not enslaved yet
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2020-04-15T13:38:27Z phoe: ...and I have no real idea how to achieve it
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2020-04-15T13:38:36Z engblom: Do you know about any dynamic tiling window manager written by any Lisp dialect (CL, scheme, Clojure, etc)? Something that would be similar to dwm or xmonad?
2020-04-15T13:38:43Z phoe: engblom: stumpwm?
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2020-04-15T13:39:12Z engblom: phoe: Stumpwm is not a dynamic tiling window manager. You have to take care of the tiling manually.
2020-04-15T13:39:24Z phoe: ooh, I see
2020-04-15T13:39:24Z phoe: TIL
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2020-04-15T13:40:58Z engblom: phoe: With a dynamic you do not need to think about frames. You open a window and it will automatically take full screen. You open another one and the screen will automatically split in two. You open a third and it will again split according to the chosen layout. You close two windows and you are back again to fullscreen one window without needing to do anything yourself.
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2020-04-15T13:44:39Z _death: maybe it shouldn't be hard to write a stumpwm contrib to do that..
2020-04-15T13:46:19Z _death: stumpwm does have an "expose" that to auto tile current windows
2020-04-15T13:46:19Z engblom: Currently I am using xmonad and it works for me but it is also the only thing I need Haskell installed for. While diskspace is cheap, it is still many of extra Gb wasted and making upgrades slower and just a bit annoying to have around. This is why I am searching for an alternative. I do not not program much so I kind of wish to have a ready solution that I can just try to tweak to fit my needs.
2020-04-15T13:47:47Z _death: do you really need haskell installed to use xmonad?
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2020-04-15T13:48:19Z Shinmera: this is well off-topic.
2020-04-15T13:48:30Z engblom: _death: Xmonad is more like a "window manager framework". You write the configuration in Haskell and it will compile a window manager for you.
2020-04-15T13:49:07Z beach: Shinmera: Thanks.  There has been more off-topic stuff than usual here.
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2020-04-15T13:49:22Z Shinmera: Yeah. :/
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2020-04-15T13:50:32Z Lycurgus: debian buster installs ghc 8.4 with xmonad
2020-04-15T13:51:02Z engblom: To take it back to Lisp topic, besides stumpwm and the clfswm fork of stumpwm, what other window managers are written in any lisp dialect?
2020-04-15T13:51:18Z beach: Eclipse is written in Common Lisp.
2020-04-15T13:51:30Z beach: engblom: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2020-04-15T13:51:39Z _death: there was ratpoison
2020-04-15T13:51:53Z Lycurgus: is or was xfce in cl?
2020-04-15T13:51:58Z beach: engblom: There is no widely agreed-upon definition of what language is a Lisp dialect.
2020-04-15T13:52:34Z _death: it's implemented in C but I think it had some lisp variant
2020-04-15T13:52:46Z Lycurgus: ah
2020-04-15T13:52:57Z engblom: beach: I am sorry, I thought it was a lisp in general channel. I thought the comment about offtopic was because of xmonad. I will not discuss this topic further here.
2020-04-15T13:53:16Z dlowe: ##lisp is a lisp in general channel
2020-04-15T13:57:24Z _death: (ah, I confused ratpoison with sawfish)
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2020-04-15T14:06:40Z _death: engblom: if stumpwm's expose command is not too bad about persistence of windows already exposed, then a quick solution could be to call it on window creation and destruction (there are likely hooks for that, or they could be added).. I write this because it's somewhat Lisp related, but you likely want to visit the stumpwm channel if you have further questions
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2020-04-15T14:10:55Z engblom: _death: When reading https://stumpwm.github.io/git/stumpwm-git_6.html it says that no window can exists outside of any frame. When reading the "expose" part, it says nothing about creating or destroying frames to satisfy the layout. Is this done automatically by expose?
2020-04-15T14:11:42Z _death: stumpwm channel is that way -> #stumpwm
2020-04-15T14:12:14Z engblom: _death: I am going there :)
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2020-04-15T14:18:09Z phoe: Do we have any Lispworks hackers here? I am trying to prevent entry into the system-provided debugger and instead invoke my own trivial one. My current slime-based code is at https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1747#1747 but I cannot reproduce what slime is doing.
2020-04-15T14:18:40Z drmeister: pjb: Thanks for the heads up on print-unreadable-object
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2020-04-15T14:20:58Z Bike: why on earth does print-unreadable-object not return the object
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2020-04-15T14:21:13Z _death: yes, it's a pet peeve
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2020-04-15T14:21:53Z Bike: phoe: i see it's ':debugger-hoook' in slime as well but like... is that seriously not a typo...?
2020-04-15T14:22:33Z phoe: Bike: yes, both in slime and sly!!
2020-04-15T14:22:45Z phoe: it makes sense because the typo is then repeated
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2020-04-15T14:25:43Z Bike: that's "sense", huh.
2020-04-15T14:25:54Z phoe: s/makes sense/works for whatever reason/
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2020-04-15T14:51:59Z rpg: I have been told we usually don't have a banner, but maybe we could announce that ELS 2020 has moved on-line?
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2020-04-15T16:31:37Z Shinmera: Bike: regarding your question a while ago about slot order in mop, if I remember correctly the order needs to be as they appear in the list of effective slots. It does not say that slot locations have to be consecutive, however.
2020-04-15T16:32:06Z Bike: what determines the order of the list of effective slots?
2020-04-15T16:32:06Z Shinmera: Ah, yes: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/instance-structure-protocol.html "For a given class, the locations increase consecutively, in the order that the directly accessible slots appear in the list of effective slots."
2020-04-15T16:32:20Z Shinmera: I believe it's the return value of compute-slots.
2020-04-15T16:32:53Z Shinmera: Indeed, they show an example on the same page that reorders the slots
2020-04-15T16:33:12Z Bike: and compute-slots sorts by CPL order, i see
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2020-04-15T16:40:44Z Bike: ...okay, i'm missing something here.
2020-04-15T16:42:37Z Bike: no, i see. CPL order means that classes /later/ in the CPL have their slots /first/
2020-04-15T16:42:56Z beach: Makes sense.
2020-04-15T16:43:06Z beach: Then slot locations are more likely to be shared.
2020-04-15T16:43:25Z Bike: mm, well, it's having confusing consequences for me with mixins.
2020-04-15T16:43:52Z Bike: i have a class with supers (instruction one-successor-mixin allocation-mixin). instruction and allocation-mixin both have slots. But allocation-mixin's slots come first, so the locations are different from a class that only has instruction as a super.
2020-04-15T16:44:40Z beach: What if you put the mixins first in the list?
2020-04-15T16:45:13Z Bike: yeah, i mean, that would do it. or have instruction be a superclass of the mixins.
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2020-04-15T17:32:30Z phoe: I guess I solved my LispWorks issue
2020-04-15T17:32:47Z phoe: ;; by setting internal symbols, as usual
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2020-04-15T17:36:44Z _death: Bike: putting mixins first is actually a documented practice.. I think I read about it in Cannon's FLAVORS paper
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2020-04-15T17:42:47Z pjb: minion: memo for engblom: there's exwm written in emacs lisps.
2020-04-15T17:42:47Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell engblom when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-04-15T17:50:33Z Bike: i guess putting the mixin first means it'll specialize on methods first, too
2020-04-15T17:50:41Z Bike: so probably good to do
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2020-04-15T17:54:09Z phoe: one of the greatest yak shaves of this mini-project has been me creating a true named-lambda macro
2020-04-15T17:54:16Z phoe: one of the greatest yak shaves of this mini-project has been me creating a true named-lambda macro
2020-04-15T17:54:21Z phoe: blah, wrong copypaste
2020-04-15T17:54:37Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1749#1749
2020-04-15T17:54:55Z phoe: it's true because it hurts my eyes to look at it, and truth always hurts
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2020-04-15T17:56:14Z MichaelRaskin: You don't like (labels) ?
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2020-04-15T17:56:53Z phoe: I do, and I'm well aware that e.g. alexandria has it
2020-04-15T17:57:30Z phoe: I just wanted to use the implementation internals for that one for no good reason whatsoever
2020-04-15T17:58:05Z MichaelRaskin: Grrr.
2020-04-15T17:58:15Z phoe ducks
2020-04-15T17:58:54Z MichaelRaskin: I guess for most implementations you could just macroexpand defun
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2020-04-15T18:02:07Z phoe: ;; that's what I did
2020-04-15T18:02:38Z phoe: the only weird thing is that ACL drops the function name after #'COMPILEing it
2020-04-15T18:02:43Z phoe: but I didn't care to dig deeper
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2020-04-15T18:04:11Z MichaelRaskin: I mean, automatically, in compile-time
2020-04-15T18:04:48Z phoe: on one hand, it's a dangerous idea
2020-04-15T18:05:13Z phoe: on the other hand, it's Michael "Codewalker" Raskin who proposes that
2020-04-15T18:05:23Z phoe: now I am somewhat tempted
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2020-04-15T18:23:42Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: it is an interesting approach!
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2020-04-15T18:38:38Z phoe: okay, time to yak shave
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2020-04-15T18:39:18Z phoe: Shinmera: will you be willing to accept https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1750#1750 into Dissect? (possibly without that NAMED-LAMBDA macro, since it's ugly.)
2020-04-15T18:40:27Z Shinmera: Hm, not sure. I'd have to rename Dissect into a general debugger thing rather than being limited to dealing with the stack.
2020-04-15T18:40:38Z phoe: OK - I'll create a separate package then.
2020-04-15T18:40:42Z phoe: s/package/system/
2020-04-15T18:40:50Z Shinmera: Yeah, probably better.
2020-04-15T18:40:59Z phoe: does a name like CUSTOM-DEBUGGER sound well?
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2020-04-15T18:44:09Z Shinmera: sounds more like a trivial-debugger-hook or something in my opinion.
2020-04-15T18:44:19Z phoe: hmmm
2020-04-15T18:44:23Z phoe: that is a better name
2020-04-15T18:44:32Z phoe: but wait
2020-04-15T18:44:38Z phoe: debugger-hook is an already established name
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2020-04-15T18:44:53Z jackdaniel: trivial-debugger-hack
2020-04-15T18:44:57Z phoe: and we aren't really doing much to the debugg--
2020-04-15T18:45:00Z phoe: jackdaniel: tempting
2020-04-15T18:45:04Z dlowe: debugger-line-and-sinker
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2020-04-15T18:45:34Z phoe: trivial-custom-debugger it'll be then
2020-04-15T18:45:50Z jackdaniel: phoe: as of debugging, you may consider extending and contributing to clim-debugger
2020-04-15T18:45:58Z jackdaniel: currently it piggybacks  to sldb
2020-04-15T18:46:03Z jackdaniel: s/to/on/
2020-04-15T18:46:30Z jackdaniel: unless of course you want to be your own captain, ship and the sail
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2020-04-15T18:49:06Z phoe: jackdaniel: the goal of this particular library is supposed to be as small and as dependency-free as possible, since I don't think that someone who reads my WIP book will want to pull all of clim-debugger in order to play with a custom system debugger function
2020-04-15T18:49:15Z phoe: however, that's a very good idea - I'll put that on my TODO list
2020-04-15T18:50:00Z jackdaniel: you may write a backend system and a graphical frontend, the former would be simple in terms of dependencies
2020-04-15T18:50:33Z phoe: jackdaniel: the backend system sounds like trivial-custom-debugger
2020-04-15T18:50:52Z phoe: it might in the future get extended with things like backtraces, e.g. via Dissect
2020-04-15T18:51:15Z phoe: and other things that allow for a generally pleasant debugging experience
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2020-04-15T19:16:31Z phoe: hah
2020-04-15T19:16:41Z phoe: I need to find a test framework that does not mind unhandled errors
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2020-04-15T19:22:09Z Shinmera: 'does not mind'?
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2020-04-15T19:28:17Z phoe: yes
2020-04-15T19:28:26Z phoe: does not have a global (handler-bind ((error ...)) ...)
2020-04-15T19:28:43Z phoe: I explicitly need an error to bubble all the way to toplevel and invoke the debugger
2020-04-15T19:28:52Z phoe: ...since it's the debugger that I am testing
2020-04-15T19:28:53Z Shinmera: you can do that with a custom parachute report.
2020-04-15T19:29:16Z phoe reads parachute source
2020-04-15T19:29:37Z Shinmera: the interactive report bubbles failures and introduces additional errors when the tests fail, for instance.
2020-04-15T19:29:47Z Shinmera: I often use it when I get a failure in a test and want the backtrace.
2020-04-15T19:30:05Z phoe: wait a second though
2020-04-15T19:30:15Z phoe: won't INTERACTIVE be fully enough
2020-04-15T19:30:24Z phoe: let me double-check...
2020-04-15T19:30:29Z Shinmera: depends. It'll signal an error if a test fails
2020-04-15T19:30:37Z Shinmera: rather than a test erroring.
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2020-04-15T20:06:22Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/trivial-custom-debugger
2020-04-15T20:06:31Z phoe: I've decided to use CL:ASSERT for the tests
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2020-04-15T20:56:50Z phoe: Xach: I know why the formatting is so broken. Let me file a movim bugticket.
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2020-04-15T21:38:19Z Xach: more like lessvim
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2020-04-15T22:14:21Z Inline: asdf is buggy
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2020-04-15T22:14:44Z Inline: exclusion for :tree via :exclude does not work
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2020-04-15T22:30:29Z Xach: Inline: i've found that the line between "asdf does not work as i expect" and "asdf is buggy" is hard to find
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2020-04-15T22:32:01Z Xach: i have not usually been able to inform my expectations with the documentation
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2020-04-15T22:37:49Z Inline: no, the implementation even the release version of the git source here over, does not match it's spec
2020-04-15T22:37:57Z Inline: previously it all worked fine
2020-04-15T22:38:36Z Inline: then all of a sudden at some point changing asdf versions to higher and higher numbers something has gone wrong
2020-04-15T22:39:43Z Inline: when i specify an exclusion pattern, eithe before or after the :tree enty, the exclusion pattern does not have any effect on the outcome
2020-04-15T22:40:14Z Inline: that was not so previously, it all happened to work seemlessly
2020-04-15T22:41:54Z Inline: btw i'd like to be able to use 2 different caches for 2 different implementation of mcclim in my local-projects directory
2020-04-15T22:42:11Z Inline: not the same cache for both
2020-04-15T22:42:37Z Inline: but i suppose that's on my side to specify how and where etc
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2020-04-15T22:43:32Z Inline: so what happens is when i load mcclim it loads the mcclim-git directory tho it's in the :exclusion entry
2020-04-15T22:43:49Z Inline: there's mcclim and mcclim-git both in local-projects
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2020-04-15T22:44:03Z Inline: i want to be able to load both from different repls
2020-04-15T22:44:41Z Inline: and i have configuration made for mutual exclusion
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2020-04-15T22:44:57Z rpg: inline: if you have an ASDF bug report, please submit it through the common-lisp.net gitlab.
2020-04-15T22:45:03Z Inline: so one repl loads one and ignores the other, or so the idea but now asdf is not working anymore
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2020-04-15T22:45:47Z Inline: rpg: i don't have a bug report
2020-04-15T22:46:05Z Inline: rpg: and i won't submit anything
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2020-04-15T22:57:52Z buffergn0me: Inline: It sounds like you have encountered a bug. You need to write down what it is, what ASDF version you are using, and steps to reproduce it
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2020-04-15T23:12:17Z Inline: oO
2020-04-15T23:12:22Z Inline: :exclude uses setf
2020-04-15T23:12:25Z Inline: bah
2020-04-15T23:12:34Z Inline: :also-exclude uses append
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2020-04-15T23:12:37Z Inline: heh
2020-04-15T23:12:40Z Inline: oh man
2020-04-15T23:14:55Z Inline: but that's not it, didn't change anything
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2020-04-16T03:13:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-16T03:22:32Z fe[nl]ix: good mornning beach :)
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2020-04-16T03:33:22Z beach: Hello fe[nl]ix.  Where are you these days?
2020-04-16T03:34:19Z fe[nl]ix: in Montreal
2020-04-16T03:34:26Z fe[nl]ix: moved there a year ago
2020-04-16T03:34:51Z beach: Right.  I was wondering about right now.  But maybe you guys are confined as well?
2020-04-16T03:36:23Z fe[nl]ix: yes, it started a month ago
2020-04-16T03:36:29Z beach: Wow.
2020-04-16T03:36:57Z fe[nl]ix: things are fine, Quebec seems well managed
2020-04-16T03:37:14Z beach: Yeah, I like it very much myself.
2020-04-16T03:37:20Z fe[nl]ix: and I'm not complaining about being able to work quietly
2020-04-16T03:37:30Z beach: Can't agree more.
2020-04-16T03:39:18Z fe[nl]ix: how's Bordeaux ? we still have snow here :D
2020-04-16T03:40:32Z beach: Oh!  We didn't get any this year.
2020-04-16T03:45:40Z beach: Anyway, aside from "distractions" such as ELS and Didier Verna's "habilitation", I am working hard to get a first executable of SICL going.  I have some time left because I don't want to rush into wrong design decisions, and there is stuff that must be improved first.
2020-04-16T03:45:59Z beach: Progress is slow, but steady.
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2020-04-16T03:52:29Z fe[nl]ix: that's wonderful
2020-04-16T03:52:55Z fe[nl]ix: are you aiming to present it next year ?
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2020-04-16T03:53:19Z beach: I haven't given it any thought.  But that would be good, I guess.
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2020-04-16T07:24:24Z no-defun-allowed: This is #lisp, so you will most likely have people want to write Common Lisp.
2020-04-16T07:24:59Z no-defun-allowed: (And most people, upon receiving magical teletypes that can write lowercase letters, write the name of the language as Lisp, title-cased.)
2020-04-16T07:25:35Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Who are you talking to?
2020-04-16T07:26:20Z no-defun-allowed: Crikey! I'm talking to Davd who is participating from Matrix and they also do not get messages sent to Freenode somehow.
2020-04-16T07:26:34Z beach: Indeed.
2020-04-16T07:27:02Z no-defun-allowed: They wrote: "Hello lispers! I want to address a question for all French people using LISP: Who wants to participate to the next BattleDev (https://battledev.blogdumoderateur.com/) using LISP and which LISP would you like to use? For that, I created a small poll, so that we can gather answers: https://linkto.run/p/OMQFP7M5. Please answer the poll 🙂 The BattleDev is a French competition for programming algorithms and 
2020-04-16T07:27:02Z no-defun-allowed: takes two hours, it is challenging and fun."
2020-04-16T07:27:38Z beach: Thanks.
2020-04-16T07:28:02Z beach: David might reach more people if the messages made it to this channel.
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2020-04-16T07:29:15Z p_l: Matrix-IRC integration breaks down daily in my experience
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2020-04-16T07:30:25Z no-defun-allowed: Davd: I'm not very good at reading French (despite three years of lessons in high school); what kind of things are participants graded by?
2020-04-16T07:31:55Z no-defun-allowed: My understanding of the bridge server is that it maintains one connection to Freenode per Matrix user, and has to send Matrix→Freenode messages on the appropriate connection. Freenode→Matrix messages can, however, be received on any connection. You get into a limbo state if that connection doesn't work somehow.
2020-04-16T07:32:46Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, but what is used to decide on the winner? Development time, program runtime, lines of code, something like that?
2020-04-16T07:33:55Z no-defun-allowed: My opinion is Common Lisp is going to be the best choice for the first two.
2020-04-16T07:35:05Z aeth: if the rules don't permit libraries, then maybe
2020-04-16T07:35:44Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Is there a way you can tell David to try to fix the connection?
2020-04-16T07:35:51Z epony: program runtime, really?
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2020-04-16T07:37:46Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I don't think that is controllable on our end, but I might be in a room with one of the maintainers and could ask him to take a peek.
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2020-04-16T07:39:28Z no-defun-allowed: Davd: You can take a look at https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp to see if your message got to IRC.
2020-04-16T07:39:48Z no-defun-allowed: No, I don't think reloading the client would help. The IRC integration is managed by a server somewhere far, far away.
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2020-04-16T07:40:04Z adlai: maybe it's a channel mode issue?
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2020-04-16T07:41:50Z aeth: adlai: yes, the name isn't identified, I think, or else there would be an account line in the whois (or however it shows up on your client)
2020-04-16T07:41:51Z no-defun-allowed: Works for me.
2020-04-16T07:41:59Z aeth: compare a whois of no-defun-allowed to Davd[m]
2020-04-16T07:42:40Z adlai: "[no-defun-allowed] is logged in as no-defun-allowed" no similar line for Davd[m]
2020-04-16T07:42:50Z aeth: weird, I don't see that on my client, maybe it's a bug
2020-04-16T07:43:16Z no-defun-allowed: It happened once to LdBeth, but they have identified and all that from memory.
2020-04-16T07:46:26Z no-defun-allowed: I like some of the ideas the Matrix people put forward, but after...about 2 years of use I think the execution is not great.
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2020-04-16T07:52:56Z phoe: minion: memo for jmercouris: one curious option about plists for slots is that they are not really plists. :reader/:writer/:accessor can be specified multiple times and *ALL* occurrences of these are used for creating functions.
2020-04-16T07:52:56Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
2020-04-16T07:54:07Z phoe: minion: memo for jmercouris: they certainly look like plists, and they pretty much may formally be plists, but they are parsed differently than via the standard GETF function that's usually used for dealing with plists.
2020-04-16T07:54:07Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-04-16T11:42:51Z pve: hello everyone
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2020-04-16T11:44:00Z pve: can a compiler choose to ignore compiler macros?
2020-04-16T11:44:14Z pve: that's the impression I get from the hyperspec
2020-04-16T11:46:56Z jackdaniel: pve: you probably see this: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbac.htm, yes -- compiler may never invoke the compiler macro
2020-04-16T11:47:29Z jackdaniel: it is only specified when compiler macros must not be invoked
2020-04-16T11:48:44Z pve: jackdaniel: ok, thanks, just checking
2020-04-16T11:48:45Z Shinmera: You can even force it to ignore them by declaring the function notinline.
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2020-04-16T11:49:37Z Xach:  
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2020-04-16T11:52:46Z phoe: pve: this, (locally (declare (notinline foo)) (foo ...)) prevents a compiler macro from being invoked
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2020-04-16T11:53:25Z phoe: but you cannot force the compiler to actually use a compiler macro
2020-04-16T11:53:35Z pve: ok that's good to know
2020-04-16T11:54:18Z jackdaniel: so, given all the above, compiler macro may never be invoked and will never be invoked when function is declared not inline, so we make a fourth circle with reiterating the same information
2020-04-16T11:54:30Z jackdaniel waits for the fifth circle
2020-04-16T11:54:55Z phoe: it's at least good that all this stuff is consistent
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2020-04-16T12:01:58Z beach: So you mean you can't force the compiler to invoke the compiler macro?
2020-04-16T12:03:19Z phoe: clhs 3.2.2.1.3
2020-04-16T12:03:19Z specbot: When Compiler Macros Are Used: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbac.htm
2020-04-16T12:03:27Z Bike: beach is joking, i'm pretty sure
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2020-04-16T12:04:11Z phoe: well, technically, you can force it to invoke the compiler macro - if you explicitly call the compiler-macro-function yourself
2020-04-16T12:04:30Z beach: Bike: Indeed.
2020-04-16T12:05:01Z Bike: (defmacro cm (form &environment env) (if (and (consp form) (symbolp (car form)) (compiler-macro-function (car form) env)) (funcall (compiler-macro-function (car form) env) form env) form))
2020-04-16T12:05:05Z Bike: bam
2020-04-16T12:05:35Z phoe: yep
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2020-04-16T12:08:01Z Josh_2: Is there gonna be a print edition of https://leanpub.com/progalgs ?
2020-04-16T12:08:25Z phoe: Josh_2: yes, Vsevolod mentioned that there will be a limited printed series. Contact him privately for that.
2020-04-16T12:08:41Z Josh_2: How do I contact him privately oof
2020-04-16T12:08:56Z Josh_2: Wait there is an "email the author" button
2020-04-16T12:09:01Z phoe: click his name on the page that you linked
2020-04-16T12:09:23Z phoe: there's twitter and there's mail on his github page
2020-04-16T12:10:29Z Josh_2: Okay done
2020-04-16T12:10:35Z Josh_2: Thanks phoe
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2020-04-16T12:14:21Z phoe: <3
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2020-04-16T12:31:29Z Josh_2: Well he got back to me very quickly :D
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2020-04-16T12:42:46Z phoe: hah, same here
2020-04-16T12:42:54Z phoe: except I sent him a tiny bugreport
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2020-04-16T16:47:28Z phoe: Hmmm
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2020-04-16T16:51:48Z phoe: I need a good (meaning: possibly natural) example of nested debugger invocation in which I can demonstrate condition-restart association.
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2020-04-16T16:52:45Z phoe: Which means that if the debugger is launched with condition A and then get an error B without leaving the debugger, the level-2 debugger will not show restarts relevant to handling condition A.
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2020-04-16T16:54:10Z phoe: RESTART-CASE and WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART cannot be used to bind restart A, since they immediately transfer control outside the scope in which their restarts are bound.
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2020-04-16T16:56:56Z phoe: This is so much of an edge case that I really need to think hard about how to describe this...
2020-04-16T16:58:53Z Bike: eh? edge case? just evaluate something wrong in the debugger, no?
2020-04-16T16:59:22Z Bike: get an error with whatever fancy restart, and then in the debugger repl enter (+ "h") by mistake
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2020-04-16T17:02:10Z phoe: oh right
2020-04-16T17:03:20Z Bike: having it occur programmatically might be an edge case, i guess. you'd need a condition handler to signal some other error
2020-04-16T17:03:33Z phoe: I can do it interactively.
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2020-04-16T17:19:37Z phoe: Bike: thanks, I've got it. I remembered that at this point of my book I can freely use the debugger REPL.
2020-04-16T17:20:37Z Bike: for a programmatic example, i guess the obvious would be invocation
2020-04-16T17:20:40Z Bike: er
2020-04-16T17:20:41Z Bike: encapsulation
2020-04-16T17:21:17Z Bike: like (defun foo (f) (handler-bind ((error (e) (error 'encapsulated-condition :original e ...))) (funcall f))
2020-04-16T17:21:40Z Bike: if the debugger or whatever gets the encapsulated condition, it will miss restarts associated to the original condition
2020-04-16T17:21:50Z phoe: thankfully I don't need a programmatic example
2020-04-16T17:22:04Z phoe: I have already constructed a toy debugger function and installed it in place of SBCL's original one
2020-04-16T17:22:43Z phoe: so once I have committed a mistake and entered my debugger, I can commit more mistakes inside it and get a nested debugger
2020-04-16T17:23:06Z phoe: and get a proper list of restarts.
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2020-04-16T17:35:26Z Inline: is there any constructed named defmethod* in lisp terminology ?
2020-04-16T17:35:45Z Inline: no idea what that sharp star method is for
2020-04-16T17:36:05Z Bike: i can't parse your english
2020-04-16T17:37:10Z phoe: Inline: not in the standard
2020-04-16T17:37:18Z phoe: where have you found it?
2020-04-16T17:40:30Z scymtym: mcclim uses DEFMETHOD* for defining methods on (SETF FOO) generic functions that accept multiple values (with limitations)
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2020-04-16T17:47:05Z Inline: ah ok
2020-04-16T17:47:06Z Inline: thank you
2020-04-16T17:47:23Z phoe: huh!
2020-04-16T17:47:31Z phoe: I have found a weird behaviour in sldb
2020-04-16T17:47:45Z phoe: if I eval-in-frame and type (abort), then nothing happens
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2020-04-16T17:48:03Z phoe: that's because sldb binds a "return to sldb level 1" restart which is then invoked
2020-04-16T17:48:07Z phoe: for an effective no-op
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2020-04-16T17:54:55Z Inline: does anyone have good book recommendations for oop in lisp not only wrt to clos but also general methodology and design stuff ?
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2020-04-16T17:55:52Z Inline: best practices etc
2020-04-16T17:57:12Z jackdaniel: fixing metastability issues in an implementation is the best way to get your feet wet (and get drowned)
2020-04-16T17:57:58Z Inline: found a histories for gf calls in horn for example
2020-04-16T17:58:03Z Inline: that's nice
2020-04-16T17:58:04Z Inline: heh
2020-04-16T17:58:44Z Inline: is esa meant to handle drei stuff even ?
2020-04-16T17:59:03Z jackdaniel: ?
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2020-04-16T18:00:04Z Inline: package hierarchy wise drei depends on esa and also uses it, but i saw some code where we try to reach back into esa from drei giving objects on the way which are drei objects....
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2020-04-16T18:01:27Z jackdaniel: this is probably more CLIM topic, but I have no idea what that means. Drei and ESA were used to implement climacs.
2020-04-16T18:01:41Z Inline: hmmm
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2020-04-16T18:02:05Z Inline: parallel and mutual ?
2020-04-16T18:02:15Z Inline: or intertwined ?
2020-04-16T18:03:49Z Inline: not sure if there'
2020-04-16T18:04:01Z Inline: s some other barrier imposed upon by tools like asdf
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2020-04-16T18:19:12Z Josh_2: Inline: not sure if this is what you want but there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-Oriented_Programming_in_Common_Lisp:_A_Programmer%27s_Guide_to_CLOS
2020-04-16T18:19:37Z Inline: i already own that book
2020-04-16T18:19:42Z Inline: heh :)
2020-04-16T18:19:45Z Josh_2: well there ya go xD
2020-04-16T18:19:50Z Inline: also mop from kiczales
2020-04-16T18:20:46Z Inline: i rather meant something like a meta level facility for constrained oop systems construction with all the bells an whistles and the ability to tweak it exactly to your needs
2020-04-16T18:20:53Z Inline: heh
2020-04-16T18:21:44Z Inline: i suppose mop would be the only tool for the hierarchy down direction
2020-04-16T18:21:58Z Inline: otherwise i don't know
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2020-04-16T18:33:15Z Josh_2: Inline: I do not know
2020-04-16T18:33:33Z Josh_2: I do know from building a system that was basically OO from top to bottom that is annoying
2020-04-16T18:33:39Z Josh_2: that it is*
2020-04-16T18:33:47Z Josh_2: I think that is why people prefer "data driven"
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2020-04-16T18:56:45Z Inline: right
2020-04-16T18:56:55Z Inline: it's like black box gaming
2020-04-16T18:57:15Z Inline: you put your hands in the engine without knowing the engine fully....
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2020-04-16T19:15:06Z phoe: dear #lisp, I have a honest question
2020-04-16T19:15:30Z phoe: or rather, a set of questions
2020-04-16T19:15:48Z phoe: why does the condition system suck? why shouldn't it be used? how shouldn't it be used? what is it terrible for? what are its downsides?
2020-04-16T19:17:44Z jackdaniel: you seem to make some dubious assertions in your questions (most notably in the first two)
2020-04-16T19:18:03Z phoe: jackdaniel: that question *is* supposed to be biased
2020-04-16T19:18:28Z phoe: I'm basically looking for all nitpicks about the condition system, fair and somewhat unfair
2020-04-16T19:18:52Z jackdaniel: doesn't seem to be  a "honest" question then
2020-04-16T19:18:59Z phoe: you are correct
2020-04-16T19:19:02Z phoe: s/honest//
2020-04-16T19:19:05Z Bike: the separation from clos sucks.
2020-04-16T19:20:08Z Bike: obscure one: a lot of things kind of have to parse types at runtime which makes it hard to do first class environment stuff
2020-04-16T19:20:33Z Bike: there could be more introspection, like dissect has to do implementation-specific junk to get properties of restarts that any implementation basically has to have on hand
2020-04-16T19:21:13Z Bike: several implementations have to define a separate "*invoke-debugger-hook*" or something because of the requirement that BREAK rebinds *debugger-hook* to NIL.
2020-04-16T19:21:50Z phoe: ;; several? I thought it's all of them - I was able to find one in every implementation when I was writing trivial-custom-debugger
2020-04-16T19:22:04Z Bike: i was hedging because i have not done that research
2020-04-16T19:22:14Z Bike: the language could stand to define the types of conditions signaled in various situations more, but that's not exactly a problem with the condition system
2020-04-16T19:22:27Z Bike: though it is missing compiler-note and a few things that could be useful like simple-program-error
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2020-04-16T19:23:25Z Bike: as jcowan brought up the other day, the fact WARN requires a condition of type warning seems pointless
2020-04-16T19:23:50Z Bike: the function that implementations probably define to coerce condition designators into a condition is not exposed
2020-04-16T19:24:15Z Bike: (which makes it slightly more annoying to define operators analogous to SIGNAL/WARN/ERROR)
2020-04-16T19:24:48Z Bike: handler-case versus handler-bind confuses every newbie, but i don't know how i'd fix that exactly
2020-04-16T19:25:33Z Bike: think that's about all i got.
2020-04-16T19:25:35Z phoe: coerce condition designators? you mean MAKE-CONDITION?
2020-04-16T19:25:41Z phoe: or did I not understand that one
2020-04-16T19:26:06Z Bike: make condition does not accept a condition designator.
2020-04-16T19:26:14Z phoe: it accepts more than that, yes
2020-04-16T19:26:22Z Bike: no, it accepts different things.
2020-04-16T19:26:24Z rpg: Bike: Did you mean like when you call ERROR and pass it a condition class designator?
2020-04-16T19:26:24Z phoe: a condition object, or a string, or a symbol
2020-04-16T19:26:33Z Bike: It doesn't accept a string.
2020-04-16T19:26:39Z Bike: or a condition, for that matter
2020-04-16T19:26:46Z phoe: wait - I got that wrong
2020-04-16T19:26:47Z Bike: It's analogous to make-instance.
2020-04-16T19:26:51Z phoe: make-condition accepts a symbol
2020-04-16T19:26:59Z Bike: it accepts a type specifier.
2020-04-16T19:27:00Z phoe: warn/error accepts strings/objects/symbols
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2020-04-16T19:27:11Z phoe: oh right, (make-condition '(or foo bar))
2020-04-16T19:27:18Z Bike: oh, yeah, the fact it's specified to accept "a subtype of condition" instead of a condition class name is also bad.
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2020-04-16T19:27:26Z Bike: rpg: more like format controls and stuff.
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2020-04-16T19:28:34Z Bike: so, for example, sbcl has this: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/error.lisp#L16-L43
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2020-04-16T19:29:20Z Bike: see how it says it also works for compiler-notify, which is of course not a standard function? if someone else wants to write an operator like error too, they have to write this themselves.
2020-04-16T19:29:29Z jackdaniel: sbcl is an oddball because they indeed implement conditions which are not standard-class
2020-04-16T19:29:37Z Bike: i mean, it can be done portably, but still
2020-04-16T19:29:53Z Bike: jackdaniel: i mean, that's fine, the standard could just say there's a condition-class metaclass and who knows what it is, or something
2020-04-16T19:30:43Z jackdaniel: sure, I'm just saying that sbcl is not a good reference point, they have more kludges than some other implementations because of that
2020-04-16T19:31:09Z Bike: i don't think coerce-to-condition is related to their decision there, despite this condition-layout-flag gibberish
2020-04-16T19:31:44Z Bike: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ecl/ecl/-/blob/develop/src/clos/conditions.lsp#L423-450 ecl also has it, ofc
2020-04-16T19:32:54Z jackdaniel: you are right, point withdrawn ,)
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2020-04-16T20:07:43Z Inline: i suppose in the near future our incomes will be pure statistics
2020-04-16T20:07:45Z Inline: lol
2020-04-16T20:24:47Z Grue`: phoe: (re: why condition system sucks) the fact that define-condition and defclass with some sort of condition metaclass are not the same thing.
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2020-04-16T20:30:19Z pjb: phoe: note that if you write your own implementation, you can make define-condition and defclass with some sort of condition metaclass be the same thing.
2020-04-16T20:30:48Z phoe: pjb: my own implementation of the condition system, you mean?
2020-04-16T20:30:50Z pjb: Right, it wouldn't be conforming, but it would be an improvement.  And once all implementations do it too, we can have a trivial-condition package and be happy.
2020-04-16T20:30:54Z pjb: Yes.
2020-04-16T20:31:08Z phoe: yes, that's correct; I won't do it though
2020-04-16T20:31:21Z pjb: choices
2020-04-16T20:31:21Z phoe: I'll work on kmp's original implementation, which uses defstruct. it's much simpler to understand.
2020-04-16T20:31:28Z phoe: ayup, choices
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2020-04-16T20:41:45Z rpg: Here's a question I was asking on the LW mailing list: In all the implementations I regularly use I can package qualify entire s-expressions, as in 'shop-user::(foo bar baz) On Lispworks this causes a reader error. Couldn't find a clear discussion of this in the CLHS. Is this legit CL, or just a common extension to the syntax?
2020-04-16T20:42:02Z phoe: rpg: nonstandard syntax extension
2020-04-16T20:42:03Z phoe: clhs 2.3.5
2020-04-16T20:42:03Z specbot: Valid Patterns for Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ce.htm
2020-04-16T20:42:15Z rpg: Ah -- just got your email, phoe !  Thanks!
2020-04-16T20:42:19Z phoe: <3
2020-04-16T20:42:42Z rpg: Bah. Now I have to figure out how to find and fix in my text files.
2020-04-16T20:42:54Z rpg: s/text/test
2020-04-16T20:43:36Z phoe: rpg: wouldn't a simple grep for ::( be enough?
2020-04-16T20:43:59Z _death: rpg: did you write a paper about FRAIL3 many moons ago?
2020-04-16T20:44:06Z jackdaniel: :: is a syntax available in sbcl (and, I think, in allegro), but it is not a conforming reader use
2020-04-16T20:44:06Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, time, set, say, mop, get, tell, roll, help, deny,
2020-04-16T20:45:05Z rpg: phoe: Yes, but the rewrite is cumbersome -- Need to do something like replace with (repackage <sexp> <package-name>) and define tree-searching repackage.  That needs to not repackage things that are themselves package-qualified. :-(
2020-04-16T20:45:41Z rpg: _death: Yes, indeed.  Maybe two?  ACL and UAI?
2020-04-16T20:46:12Z phoe: rpg: I got 13 hits in total in the shop3 repository. Not much for manual replacing.
2020-04-16T20:46:37Z rpg: phoe: Fair.
2020-04-16T20:46:39Z phoe: Oh, wait. In actual lisp files, just four hits.
2020-04-16T20:46:56Z rpg: phoe: I *think* that's all that's necessary.
2020-04-16T20:47:09Z phoe: ...all four of which are marked with #+nil.
2020-04-16T20:47:17Z phoe: :)
2020-04-16T20:47:44Z rpg: phoe: That's interesting! It means I never used it except on this topic branch!  That makes it *much* easier.
2020-04-16T20:48:08Z phoe: rpg: glad to be of service
2020-04-16T20:48:23Z _death: rpg: cool.. IEEE it seems.. A Language for Construction of Belief Networks (with Charniak)
2020-04-16T20:48:39Z rpg: Still, what a *useful* syntax extension.
2020-04-16T20:48:53Z rpg: _death: Oh, yes.  The two I remember were the conference papers.
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2020-04-16T20:52:18Z _death: rpg: nice, read it today (recently I've implemented something like IDEAL, I guess..)
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2020-04-16T20:53:04Z rpg: _death: Oh, neat.  IDEAL was really a lovely piece of software. I still have a copy of it, but I can't share it because it belongs to a company, and I haven't been able to persuade them to open source it.
2020-04-16T20:54:26Z _death: rpg: did it also contain methods for learning BNs?
2020-04-16T20:54:52Z rpg: _death: Yes, but they were very rudimentary.  If I recall correctly, basically just support for Dirichlet priors.
2020-04-16T20:56:16Z _death: rpg: ah.. I implemented chow-liu/polytree/k2/mdl/pc
2020-04-16T20:56:53Z _death: rpg: no beta/dirichlet priors though
2020-04-16T20:57:01Z rpg: _death: Cool.  I've been working on some stuff with continuous-valued bayes nets lately, but using Python and PyMC3.  Hard to beat the numpy ecosystem.
2020-04-16T21:00:13Z _death: I guess :).. my stuff is just for (self) educational value for now
2020-04-16T21:01:07Z _death: so implementational efficiency was not a concern
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2020-04-16T21:03:35Z rpg: _death: Well, my knowledge of complex monte carlo methods for continuous distributions really wasn't up to doing anything like what PyMC3 does by myeslf.
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2020-04-16T21:06:07Z _death: rpg: yeah pymc3 seemed very cool when I checked it out.. maybe one day CL will have an analogue
2020-04-16T21:06:47Z rpg: Or if one wanted one's own PPL, reach straight from CL into TensorFlow...
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2020-04-16T21:09:35Z scymtym: https://github.com/melisgl/micmac has some of the mcmc methods
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2020-04-16T21:10:36Z rpg: scymtym: Ah.  That's mostly Monte Carlo tree search.  The cool kids seem to be using Hamiltonian Monte Carlo for continuous-valued distributions.
2020-04-16T21:11:03Z rpg: scymtym: But that's still hugely useful, since I could use an implementation of MCTS.... Thanks!
2020-04-16T21:12:32Z _death: rpg: well, I only implemented discrete models.. most BN literature from the 80s/90s at least concentrates on that
2020-04-16T21:12:46Z scymtym: rpg: if i remember correctly, the tree search bits are built on top of more general mcmc machinery. i may be misremembering
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2020-04-16T21:30:21Z rpg: _death: As an old AI guy, discrete random variables used to be just my thing. My continuous probability theory is pretty rusty (i.e., bad).  Perhaps unsurprisingly, because the intuitions are so different, the solution techniques are also quite different.
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2020-04-16T21:32:10Z rpg: scymtym: That looks right, but even so, for the applications I'm working on now, HMC seems way better. If you are at all interested, Michael Betancourt has written a fascinating paper that does a great job of giving the intuitions about why HMC works -- even to a person like me whose knowledge of more complex analysis and geometry is quite weak.
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2020-04-16T21:36:18Z scymtym: rpg: from a brief glance, HMC seems like a particular, more efficient way of doing the jump proposal step. reminds me a bit of reversible jump mcmc which i used like ten year ago. still interesting but not relevant to current work so i can't spend any time
2020-04-16T21:36:32Z _death: rpg: right, I basically just read a book and implemented most of what it talks about (reading papers as needed).. since it was light on the details for continuous variables, I decided not to delve into it at that time.. since then I've done the same with a reinforcement learning book (but that was much easier since it had some pseudocode hehe)
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2020-04-16T21:38:27Z rpg: scymtym: I think that's right.  The notion is that HMC finds its way to a "typical set" which is a set of locations that hold most of the posterior probability mass, and then, because of complicated mumble geometry, the sampler "orbits" in a location that all has essentially the same mass, so it rapidly explores the most interesting part of the distribution.
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2020-04-16T21:39:06Z rpg: _death: I think there's a reason that the techniques for discrete and continuous distirbutions are so different.
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2020-04-16T21:42:24Z _death: maybe it's the focus on methods for exact inference?
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2020-04-16T21:44:28Z rpg: _death: I don't know -- when I was working on discrete distributions I found that the best exact methods were fine for what I was doing -- indeed better than the approximate methods.  That was particular to my problems, though, which weren't too huge, but had very extreme probabilities, and when I was doing things importance sampling didn't work well enough to get to low probability regions.
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2020-04-16T21:48:39Z _death: rpg: yes, that's also true in my (toy) experience.. exact methods also had issues with near-zero probabilities, but they were worked around
2020-04-16T21:51:10Z _death: (those issues were performance related.. unlike what you describe re approx methods)
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2020-04-16T22:03:49Z rpg: _death: Yes, the sampling methods would just never converge.
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2020-04-16T22:10:34Z _death: rpg: anyway, thanks for the conversation :).. I guess we should return to being on-topic now
2020-04-16T22:10:48Z rpg: WFM!
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2020-04-16T22:31:03Z jeosol: Good morning everyone
2020-04-16T22:32:02Z phoe: jeosol: good night
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2020-04-16T22:42:18Z jeosol: lol, night for you I guess, or has the official greeting changed. I haven't been here in a while.
2020-04-16T22:44:13Z phoe: no no, it hasn't changed
2020-04-16T22:44:19Z phoe: it's just almost 1am for me
2020-04-16T22:44:28Z phoe: and I still haven't run my unit tests for the night
2020-04-16T22:47:36Z phoe: wait a second
2020-04-16T22:47:41Z phoe: clhs 9.1.4
2020-04-16T22:47:42Z specbot: Signaling and Handling Conditions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_ad.htm
2020-04-16T22:47:51Z phoe: > Once a handler in a handler binding form (such as handler-bind or handler-case) has been selected, all handlers in that form become inactive for the remainder of the signaling process. While the selected handler runs, no other handler established by that form is active. That is, if the handler declines, no other handler established by that form will be considered for possible invocation.
2020-04-16T22:48:28Z phoe: but this is not how it works
2020-04-16T22:48:30Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1752#1752
2020-04-16T22:49:19Z phoe: or does it mean that handlers from that cluster stop being visible to SIGNAL if it's called inside the handlers' bodies?
2020-04-16T22:50:04Z Bike: it's a bit confusing. It says "while the selected handler runs [...] That is, if the handler declines", but declining means the handler is done running.
2020-04-16T22:50:09Z phoe: yes
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2020-04-16T22:50:14Z phoe: ohhh, I think I understand it
2020-04-16T22:51:23Z phoe: the handler cluster becomes inactive - meaning that they cannot be selected by SIGNAL
2020-04-16T22:51:39Z Bike: yeah, that would make sense to me.
2020-04-16T22:51:57Z phoe: while the handler runs, no other handler is active - it means that SIGNAL cannot call handlers from the handler cluster whose handlers it is currently invoking
2020-04-16T22:52:07Z Bike: a new signal from the handler.
2020-04-16T22:52:12Z phoe: yes
2020-04-16T22:52:25Z Bike: this also matches the usual implementation of handler-bind.
2020-04-16T22:52:29Z phoe: yep
2020-04-16T22:52:39Z phoe: glad to know that I understood clustering properly
2020-04-16T22:53:18Z phoe: see https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1753#1753
2020-04-16T22:55:17Z phoe: okay - good night
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2020-04-16T22:55:50Z phoe: tomorrow I'mma complain about the Lisp condition system
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2020-04-16T23:05:20Z jeosol: phoe: good night, get some rest.
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2020-04-17T03:17:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-17T07:07:51Z jeosol: Good morning everyone
2020-04-17T07:08:52Z no-defun-allowed: jeosol: Here, you dropped a !
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2020-04-17T07:09:21Z jeosol: no-defun-allowed: I didn't get that
2020-04-17T07:09:35Z jeosol: I get it
2020-04-17T07:09:40Z jeosol: Good morning everyone!
2020-04-17T07:10:06Z no-defun-allowed: DavdL: No, apparently not. I did message someone in control, and they sounded like they were going to fix it, but nothing happened evidently. When in doubt, blame timezones.
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2020-04-17T07:11:16Z beach: Hello jeosol.
2020-04-17T07:11:26Z no-defun-allowed: (Then there was an argument about having to throw money at the programmers to get anything fixed, which also could have distracted them. Maybe I will have to ask again.)
2020-04-17T07:12:02Z jeosol: Hi beach. Been a while
2020-04-17T07:13:41Z jeosol: I wanted to see if anyone here is doing machine-learning type work with CL. I want to replicate an example using CL(SBCL) with jupyter notebook but the setups appear complicated and I gotten some error.
2020-04-17T07:14:26Z jeosol: I recently spent some hours replicating an example (linear regression) from a 2019 python book and ran into version problems, deprecated keywords, arguments, etc. It was a nightmare, just to run an example in a book that's recent.
2020-04-17T07:16:16Z jeosol: I am not trying to rant against python, it has it merits and have used it fairly, but I wonder how much is spent, trying to sort this type of things out.
2020-04-17T07:17:04Z jeosol: if reached out to Mike Maul who appears to be maintaining CLML and he also has plans to extend the toolkit to use connectionist methods in the CLML library
2020-04-17T07:19:52Z pjb: jeosol: python is not one language, but a family of languages, numbered, from 1.0 to 3.8.2 and increasing!
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2020-04-17T07:20:42Z jeosol: hahah. Ok, that's true. And the massive divide between 2 and 3. Point taken
2020-04-17T07:21:49Z jeosol: That will help next time, and not expect same type of stability on the CL side.
2020-04-17T07:22:13Z jeosol: Usually, you have to hunt down the specific version for things to work.
2020-04-17T07:22:58Z pjb: exactly.   Or be prepared to update the code.
2020-04-17T07:24:52Z jeosol: damn. I thought the issue is not that severe.
2020-04-17T07:25:47Z jeosol: I worked a project with some colleagues last here, the guy doing the backend said the code needs 3.6, and another machine for testing had 3.7.
2020-04-17T07:27:03Z jeosol: it makes sense now to  have the different family of language mindset.
2020-04-17T07:28:38Z LdBeth: DavdL: identify via NickServ not working?
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2020-04-17T07:33:59Z phoe: FYI, I can't see any posts for DavdL myself.
2020-04-17T07:35:43Z beach: phoe: It's a known problem, apparently.
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2020-04-17T07:42:15Z phoe: beach: yep
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2020-04-17T11:35:17Z Xach: darn it, postmodern is broken today.
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2020-04-17T11:39:01Z phoe: Xach: oh!
2020-04-17T11:39:09Z phoe: might be the last commits that sabrac has pushed to it
2020-04-17T11:39:19Z phoe: https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/pull/226
2020-04-17T11:39:23Z phoe: how exactly did it break?
2020-04-17T11:39:27Z Xach: duplicate definition
2020-04-17T11:39:33Z Xach: https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/commit/baef8ebec5fa3d7321e1d0d51d977755bb5fc82a#diff-f024881c70a1b45614e976e64aa236a0R902
2020-04-17T11:40:11Z Xach: list-installed-extensions is duplicated
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2020-04-17T11:45:13Z phoe: Xach: made a more detailed issue on the repository. let's wait for Sabra.
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2020-04-17T12:00:17Z Xach can't wait, MUST POSTMODERN IMMEDIATELY
2020-04-17T12:01:48Z phoe: OMG
2020-04-17T12:01:57Z phoe: then just delete either of these
2020-04-17T12:02:15Z phoe: likely the one that is added last, since it breaks protocol with the previous version of the function
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2020-04-17T12:18:48Z phoe: Xach: done
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2020-04-17T12:32:43Z Xach: i want faster than immediate gratification!
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2020-04-17T12:33:36Z sabrac: phoe: Xach: Thank you.
2020-04-17T12:33:44Z phoe: Xach: you must invent time travel for that
2020-04-17T12:33:52Z phoe: sabrac: no problem
2020-04-17T12:37:47Z Xach: sabrac: do you use rss? i have a feed of postmodern build failures
2020-04-17T12:37:51Z Xach: (rarely updated)
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2020-04-17T12:39:27Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/feeds/project/postmodern.rss
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2020-04-17T12:39:49Z sabrac: Xach: Thank you. Will look at it.
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2020-04-17T13:12:24Z phoe: blah
2020-04-17T13:12:52Z Shinmera: halb
2020-04-17T13:12:56Z phoe: RESTART-CASE is one of the places where &KEY foo bar &REST forms would make sense in a destructuring lambda list
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2020-04-17T14:41:54Z phoe: well
2020-04-17T14:42:43Z phoe: I've just discovered a good reason why I actually want to rewrite Kent's v18 conditions using DEFCLASS
2020-04-17T14:43:02Z phoe: I have no multiple inheritance with DEFSTRUCT!
2020-04-17T14:43:13Z phoe: but - restarts first
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2020-04-17T14:48:07Z Bike: does it use defstruct for conditions too?
2020-04-17T14:48:18Z phoe: yes
2020-04-17T14:48:20Z Bike: clasp uses a descendent of kent's code but the conditions were classes when we got it from ECL
2020-04-17T14:48:26Z phoe: correct
2020-04-17T14:48:42Z phoe: it's a CLtL1 condition system and CLtL1 did not even have defclass
2020-04-17T14:48:45Z Bike: (restart was still a defstruct, but i changed that a few weeks ago)
2020-04-17T14:48:47Z Bike: oh.
2020-04-17T14:49:00Z Bike: condition system without multiple inheritance sounds annoying.
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2020-04-17T14:49:15Z phoe: it certainly did
2020-04-17T14:49:58Z phoe: I'll gut out the condition internals and use defclass instead - that solves all of my problems with defstruct
2020-04-17T14:50:16Z phoe: in the worst case, I'll write a paragraph or two about the basics of DEFSTRUCT
2020-04-17T14:50:27Z theseb: When you set a variable to a value, is that added to the current environment or is a NEW environment created?  I believe you only get NEW environments when you call a function or something like that?
2020-04-17T14:50:35Z phoe: theseb: depends
2020-04-17T14:50:56Z phoe: in general, a variable must already exist *before* you set any new value to it
2020-04-17T14:51:01Z Bike: "setting" means changing an existing binding. implementations will sometimes implicitly add a binding first, but it's generally to the same environment.
2020-04-17T14:51:03Z phoe: anything otherwise is undefined behaviour
2020-04-17T14:51:34Z phoe: implementations will permit stuff like (setq foo 42) but that's formally UB and also damn dirty code anyway.
2020-04-17T14:51:55Z phoe: the important question is: *which* variable are you trying a set? have you declared it previously?
2020-04-17T14:52:13Z phoe: ;; sigh, I might want to write an article about variables in Lisp someday
2020-04-17T14:53:11Z theseb: phoe: I'm actually writing a little lisp and was planning to just have a "define" command that created new variables as well as reset existing ones
2020-04-17T14:53:26Z theseb: phoe: Maybe I'm nieve but it seems easier to not sweat the distinction?
2020-04-17T14:53:38Z theseb: naive*
2020-04-17T14:53:50Z theseb: phoe: why not just have one "define" func that does both?
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2020-04-17T14:54:03Z beach: theseb: That kind of thing is very error prone, which is why Common Lisp has different operators for creating and assigning to variables.
2020-04-17T14:54:15Z theseb: phoe: actually....regardless...I'm still not clear WHEN a lisp actually makes a new environment level
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2020-04-17T14:56:09Z beach: theseb: There is a distinction between global environments, lexical environments created by the compiler, and local run-time environments created by function enclosures.
2020-04-17T14:56:17Z Bike: theseb: Say you have (define FOO 4) (define FO0 5). You've defind two variables instead of defining one and then setting it. Having a separate (set FO0 5) could find the variable hasn't been defined and signal an error instead.
2020-04-17T14:57:32Z Bike: theseb: generally you make a new environment when you enter a lexical scope, like by entering a function or LET body.
2020-04-17T14:58:25Z theseb: Bike: do even simple func invocations like (+ 3 4) need a new env level to hold the arg values?  i'm thinking yes
2020-04-17T14:58:42Z beach: theseb: Yes, that's what he said, entering a function.
2020-04-17T14:58:48Z theseb: ok
2020-04-17T14:58:50Z beach: Like + in this case.
2020-04-17T14:58:56Z theseb: thanks..i get it now
2020-04-17T15:01:00Z phoe: theseb: when I was implementing a tiny lisp, I used the paper Roots of Lisp
2020-04-17T15:01:07Z phoe: it has the concept of environments
2020-04-17T15:01:15Z beach: theseb: and (let ((<var> <form>)) <body>) is essentially equivalent to a function call, like ((lambda (<var>) <body>) <form>)
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2020-04-17T15:11:37Z phoe: another small enlightenment about the restart system!
2020-04-17T15:12:01Z beach: What's that?
2020-04-17T15:12:07Z phoe: with-condition-restarts accepts a list of restarts, right?
2020-04-17T15:12:51Z phoe: if the implementation does restarts via clusters - as it should - then it is able to pass (car *restart-clusters*) to it to associate all recently bound restarts (the last cluster) with a given condition
2020-04-17T15:12:57Z phoe: that's a very nice thing!
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2020-04-17T15:14:37Z theseb: beach: make sense
2020-04-17T15:14:46Z theseb: phoe: yea i love that paper
2020-04-17T15:15:27Z theseb: phoe: i think a simple lisp is a nice way to understand even languages like python...some say python is like a lisp w/o parens
2020-04-17T15:16:01Z theseb: loosely speaking
2020-04-17T15:17:31Z travv0: word on the street is that python is an "acceptable lisp"
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2020-04-17T15:18:57Z beach: Yeah, for some reason, lots of people who invent new languages want to categorize them as "a Lisp".  I don't understand why since Lisp is not very popular, and if they want Lisp they can just use Common Lisp.
2020-04-17T15:19:11Z _death: python is an acceptable lisp compiler
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2020-04-17T15:25:09Z theseb: beach: I don't know the innards of the C implementation of Python but it would be very interesting to me if they basically created a sort of proto-lisp in C to do it right
2020-04-17T15:26:08Z _death: python is written in lisp
2020-04-17T15:26:15Z theseb: beach: to answer your question....it seems advisable and less error prone in language design to first create a Turing complete tiny lisp and then build the rest of your language from that core....but what do i know
2020-04-17T15:26:31Z theseb: _death: yes...common lisp even
2020-04-17T15:26:40Z theseb: _death: actually python has been implemented in many langs
2020-04-17T15:26:53Z phoe: ;; _death: means the common lisp compiler named Python, which has nothing to do with the whitespace-indented programming language
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2020-04-17T15:26:59Z theseb: _death: but I wonder if under the hood they all had to implement some kind of crude lisp we don't know about
2020-04-17T15:27:10Z _death: the "whitespace-indented programming language" is off topic
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2020-04-17T15:27:39Z Bike: also lisps have been written in C many times. imagining one in python is not necessary
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2020-04-17T15:27:59Z beach: theseb: Actually, when it comes to handling environments, most languages do it roughly the same way.  There are not many alternatives really.
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2020-04-17T15:31:12Z beach: So if handling environments the same way that Lisp does is a sufficient criterion for calling the language "a Lisp", then there are lots of them out there.
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2020-04-17T15:38:20Z theseb: I was surprised to read that Lisp isn't really based on lambda calculus....Yes McCarthy used the keyword "lambda" in his language but he says he didn't really understand lambda calculus at the beginning
2020-04-17T15:38:56Z theseb: So that sort of bugged me because it would have been elegant to me if Lisp could be understood as an extension of lambda cal
2020-04-17T15:39:00Z Bike: lambda calculus is usually expressed in terms of renaming, rather than environments per se.
2020-04-17T15:39:01Z theseb: is that right?
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2020-04-17T15:39:25Z beach: Renaming and outermost evaluation, a.k.a. "lazy" evaluation.
2020-04-17T15:39:55Z beach: theseb: If Lisp had been done that way, it would have been very slow.
2020-04-17T15:40:03Z theseb: Bike: yes you are right...lambda calculus has no concept of an environment
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2020-04-17T15:40:34Z Bike: i mean, renaming versus environments doesn't affect semantics so much (unlike evaluation order)
2020-04-17T15:40:53Z theseb: Bike: Did McCarthy invent the concept of an environment? if so that would be quite impressive
2020-04-17T15:41:03Z Bike: beats me.
2020-04-17T15:41:06Z theseb: imagine inventing a whole new way of doing languages
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2020-04-17T15:46:30Z phoe: eh, that's already deeply theoretical
2020-04-17T15:50:03Z theseb: phoe: huh? is that bad?
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2020-04-17T15:54:45Z phoe: not necessarily
2020-04-17T15:55:40Z phoe: ;; just remember to keep something that holds you to the ground while theorizing
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2020-04-17T16:07:46Z phoe: well
2020-04-17T16:08:04Z phoe: working on kmp's code is mostly a pleasure
2020-04-17T16:08:37Z phoe: mostly when one realizes that a lot of his code can be simplified via modern wonders such as print-unreadable-object or destructuring-bind
2020-04-17T16:09:00Z Bike: yeah, clasp had that unique-id thing up until like last month when i noticed i should get rid of it
2020-04-17T16:09:18Z phoe: that was one of the first things I threw out
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2020-04-17T16:13:05Z phoe: oh, by the way - if you have clasp installed, could you check if trivial-custom-debugger works there? I assumed that it should work the same as in ECL
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2020-04-17T16:14:07Z Bike: your repo? i'm rebuilding right now, but i'll check in a few minutes
2020-04-17T16:14:21Z phoe: yes, my repo
2020-04-17T16:14:34Z Bike: so this is basically invoke-debugger-hook the library?
2020-04-17T16:14:38Z phoe: yes
2020-04-17T16:15:04Z phoe: since literally everyone has it and literally everyone does it differently
2020-04-17T16:15:08Z phoe: business as usual in the Lisp world™
2020-04-17T16:15:14Z Bike: i assume you just pulled this from swank.
2020-04-17T16:15:26Z phoe: Bike: not all of it
2020-04-17T16:16:03Z phoe: I had to work on clisp a little bit to hammer it into shape and I dug into ACL and LW on my own to find their hooks
2020-04-17T16:16:48Z phoe: the LW solution in swank works only if you are not using their CAPI frontend
2020-04-17T16:16:59Z Bike: hrm. well, in any case i'd be surprised if it didn't work, but i'll check anyway
2020-04-17T16:17:33Z phoe: which is because the LW code in swank is weird and for whatever reason it seems to hook into GUI-related code in order to display SLDB
2020-04-17T16:17:44Z phoe: I found a lower-level solution and opened a slime issue with details.
2020-04-17T16:18:01Z phoe: Bike: thanks a million
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2020-04-17T16:20:19Z phoe: okay
2020-04-17T16:20:31Z phoe: the fun thing about the condition system is that there's already piles of code for testing it
2020-04-17T16:20:49Z phoe: I just need to gut ANSI-TEST out and run these against the kmp code that I work on
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2020-04-17T16:45:16Z Bike: phoe: the readme example works identically in clasp.
2020-04-17T16:45:21Z phoe: Bike: <3
2020-04-17T16:45:25Z phoe: perfect, thank you
2020-04-17T16:45:33Z Bike: no problemo
2020-04-17T16:46:02Z phoe: we have therefore successfully enslaved all standard debuggers in all alive Lisp implementations I'm aware of
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2020-04-17T16:46:17Z phoe: hm, except SICL
2020-04-17T16:46:34Z Bike: i don't think scil has a debugger, let alone invoke-debugger-hook.
2020-04-17T16:46:51Z phoe: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/e19613c61d8797a9ea586e3c513efdaeb0860d68/Code/Conditions/signaling.lisp#L131
2020-04-17T16:46:55Z phoe: it has the former but not the latter
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2020-04-17T16:47:10Z Bike: why didn't that show up on github search... why is github search so bad...
2020-04-17T16:48:34Z Bike: this manages to not be standard conforming, because it can return normally, and because it ignores debugger-hook
2020-04-17T16:52:55Z phoe: clearly not yet complete
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2020-04-17T16:53:53Z phoe: the only two options in the debugger are printing "this should be some help" and returning from it
2020-04-17T16:54:23Z Bike: if it was only the first option that would be conforming.
2020-04-17T16:54:37Z phoe: well
2020-04-17T16:54:41Z phoe: technically, you're right
2020-04-17T16:54:54Z Bike: the best kind of right.
2020-04-17T17:00:43Z ATuin: what's the difference between directories "sbcl-bundle-systems" and "sbcl-source" for asdf files?
2020-04-17T17:01:01Z ATuin: i see safe ASDF files in both places so i'm a bit confused
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2020-04-17T17:19:18Z [rg]: what happens when you create a cons cell?
2020-04-17T17:19:27Z [rg]: just a single one
2020-04-17T17:19:38Z [rg]: like `(cons 1 2)`
2020-04-17T17:19:42Z Bike: What do you mean what happens? A cons cell is made.
2020-04-17T17:19:51Z Bike: What reference frame are you asking from?
2020-04-17T17:20:10Z [rg]: what does the structure look like
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2020-04-17T17:20:20Z [rg]: does it just make a container to hold 1, 2
2020-04-17T17:20:29Z [rg]: or is it, 1, 2, NULL
2020-04-17T17:20:36Z Bike: Just 1 2.
2020-04-17T17:20:53Z Bike: You can get the 1 with CAR and the 2 with CDR. there's no way to get nil from that cons.
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2020-04-17T17:22:02Z [rg]: ok, do you get nil when you use `list`
2020-04-17T17:22:07Z [rg]: ?
2020-04-17T17:22:18Z [rg]: `(list 1 2)`
2020-04-17T17:22:30Z phoe: (list 1 2) gives you (1 2)
2020-04-17T17:22:33Z phoe: which is (1 . (2 . NIL))
2020-04-17T17:23:18Z [rg]: ok, are all elements in those list are "pointers"
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2020-04-17T17:24:21Z jackdaniel: minion: tell [rg] about gentle
2020-04-17T17:24:21Z minion: [rg]: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2020-04-17T17:24:22Z Bike: this is what i meant by reference frame.
2020-04-17T17:24:36Z Bike: lisp does not have a concept of pointers. pointers might come up in the implementation, though.
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2020-04-17T18:45:03Z phoe: Is thre a format control will print all of its arguments?
2020-04-17T18:45:28Z phoe: I want something that will allow me to print arbitrary args, from 0 to N.
2020-04-17T18:45:33Z phoe: Or should I not use FORMAT in that case?
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2020-04-17T18:46:30Z Xach: (format t "~v@{~A~}" 2 'a 'b 'c) => AB
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2020-04-17T18:56:34Z phoe: Xach: thanks!
2020-04-17T18:57:43Z phoe: clhs ~v
2020-04-17T18:57:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm
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2020-04-17T19:02:27Z Xach: phoe: v is a modifier
2020-04-17T19:03:07Z phoe: wait, really?
2020-04-17T19:03:13Z phoe: clhs ~{
2020-04-17T19:03:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgd.htm
2020-04-17T19:03:21Z Xach: yes. it took the 2 from the arg list as though i had written ~2@{...}
2020-04-17T19:03:36Z Xach: and that means iterate twice.
2020-04-17T19:03:38Z Bike: v is explained just above figure 22-6 in the page specbot came up with.
2020-04-17T19:03:49Z Bike: "In place of a prefix parameter to a directive, V (or v) can be used." and so on
2020-04-17T19:04:08Z phoe: oooooooh
2020-04-17T19:04:12Z Xach: i like to use lowercase v and uppercase format letters to distinguish them
2020-04-17T19:04:19Z phoe: woah
2020-04-17T19:06:47Z jackdaniel: format control strings look like obj-apl++
2020-04-17T19:07:05Z jackdaniel: and are equally readable ,)
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2020-04-17T19:12:42Z antaoiseach: Whoa... quite a lot of folks in here. Good to see so many Lispers!
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2020-04-17T19:16:05Z phoe: antaoiseach: did you expect a cemetery?
2020-04-17T19:16:25Z phoe: I mean, it's nothing strange, given how some people say that Lisp is Dead™
2020-04-17T19:17:11Z theseb: ( (lambda (a b) (car '(a b))) 8 9 )  <--- Why does this return 'a' instead of 8?
2020-04-17T19:17:24Z phoe: you quoted the cons
2020-04-17T19:17:38Z phoe: that's why it's passed as a literal
2020-04-17T19:17:42Z theseb: if do (car (8 9)) it crashes
2020-04-17T19:17:47Z phoe: yes
2020-04-17T19:17:47Z antaoiseach: phoe: *Groan*... why do I get comp.lang.lisp vibes?
2020-04-17T19:17:57Z phoe: because (8 9) is not a good function call
2020-04-17T19:18:04Z theseb: phoe: how fix?
2020-04-17T19:18:13Z phoe: antaoiseach: well, this place has fewer spammers
2020-04-17T19:18:20Z antaoiseach: Hah
2020-04-17T19:18:25Z phoe: and Naggum is also not around anymore
2020-04-17T19:18:33Z antaoiseach: Yeah, kinda miss his rants
2020-04-17T19:18:37Z phoe: theseb: ((lambda (a b) (car (cons a b))) 8 9)
2020-04-17T19:18:46Z theseb: oh my
2020-04-17T19:19:01Z phoe: antaoiseach: I don't. I wasn't around when he ranted, but I read lots of his mail
2020-04-17T19:19:07Z theseb: phoe: ok thanks
2020-04-17T19:19:26Z Aurora_v_kosmose: ( (lambda (a b) (car (list a  b))) 8 9 )
2020-04-17T19:19:45Z phoe: he was as much of a genius as he was an asshole, and I, personally, am thankful that most of the pearls from his mails have already been extracted and implemented elsewhere
2020-04-17T19:20:32Z phoe: nowadays it's rare when someone *really* needs to go cesspool diving into the archives of comp.lang.lisp.naggum
2020-04-17T19:20:33Z antaoiseach: ((lambda (a b) (car `(,a ,b))) 8 9) should work too
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2020-04-17T19:21:15Z Bike: really advanced programmers might do ((lambda (a b) a) 8 9)
2020-04-17T19:21:33Z antaoiseach: phoe: Hmmm... he did seem to have some mental issues for sure, but it's fine by me... I enjoyed it at times! :D
2020-04-17T19:21:39Z phoe: Bike: that causes stylewarnings to occur though
2020-04-17T19:21:52Z Bike: advanced programmers know they're always in style
2020-04-17T19:21:55Z phoe: antaoiseach: `(,a ,b) is not a cons
2020-04-17T19:21:57Z antaoiseach: Bike: Hahaha
2020-04-17T19:22:18Z antaoiseach: phoe: yes, but OP just wanted the first element right?
2020-04-17T19:22:34Z Aurora_v_kosmose: lol
2020-04-17T19:22:47Z phoe: antaoiseach: oh I'm blind
2020-04-17T19:22:54Z phoe: that wasn't a cons, that was a two element list
2020-04-17T19:22:57Z phoe: yes, you are correct
2020-04-17T19:23:03Z antaoiseach: no worries!
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2020-04-17T19:25:02Z antaoiseach: btw, is this for all Lisp "dialects" or only for CL? first time in here...
2020-04-17T19:25:29Z phoe: Common Lisp
2020-04-17T19:25:35Z Aurora_v_kosmose: It works for Elisp too
2020-04-17T19:25:50Z phoe: ##lisp is for general lisp, #emacs is for elisp, #lispcafe is for offtopic stuff
2020-04-17T19:26:12Z phoe: #clschool for newbies, #scheme for conspirators, #clojure for Java programmers, etc..
2020-04-17T19:26:13Z antaoiseach: phoe: Oh, nice!
2020-04-17T19:26:52Z antaoiseach: phoe: Hahaha - that dig at Clojure... oh man!
2020-04-17T19:27:13Z phoe: antaoiseach: just playing towards your c.l.l vibes now
2020-04-17T19:27:29Z antaoiseach: hahaha
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2020-04-17T19:42:31Z alandipert: i made a simple website for JACL and also posted code in case anyone is interested: https://tailrecursion.com/JACL/
2020-04-17T19:42:55Z alandipert is excited about ELS
2020-04-17T19:43:10Z phoe: alandipert: posted on Reddit, thank you for flying phoe airlines
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2020-04-17T19:44:55Z phoe: will you consider eventually putting it on Quicklisp?
2020-04-17T19:45:31Z alandipert: my inclination is no but for reasons i haven't fully convinced myself of
2020-04-17T19:46:10Z Aurora_v_kosmose: So long as it's referenced on Cliki it's fine.
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2020-04-17T19:47:45Z alandipert: even once it's usable jacl's capabilities are severely limited compared to other CLs, so i want to be thoughtful about how to link jacl to the wider ecosystem
2020-04-17T19:48:17Z alandipert: otoh, it's MIT licensed, so if anyone else wanted to run with it in that direction i couldn't stop them :-)
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2020-04-17T20:05:37Z phoe: hmm
2020-04-17T20:05:49Z phoe: should I implement {e,c}{type,}case from scratch
2020-04-17T20:06:00Z phoe: or base them off case and typecase
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2020-04-17T20:08:56Z alandipert: phoe is this related to your condition system alternative?
2020-04-17T20:09:03Z aeth: phoe: isn't an etypecase or ctypecase just a typecase with an implicit t clause at the end?
2020-04-17T20:09:24Z aeth: and probably the same for ecase/ccase
2020-04-17T20:09:28Z phoe: alandipert: yes
2020-04-17T20:09:32Z phoe: aeth: yes, it is
2020-04-17T20:09:40Z phoe: that's why I'm thinking of piggybacking the host's case/typecase implementation
2020-04-17T20:09:43Z aeth: yeah
2020-04-17T20:09:59Z aeth: it should be no different from the implementation, unless the implementation *really* cheats, as long as you base it on case/typecase
2020-04-17T20:10:19Z aeth: s/the implementation/the Lisp implementation/
2020-04-17T20:10:23Z alandipert: phoe are you going for different semantics, or is this for pedagogical purposes?
2020-04-17T20:16:03Z phoe: alandipert: pure pedagogical purpose
2020-04-17T20:16:12Z phoe: I am reworking kmp's original CLCS implementation right now
2020-04-17T20:16:21Z phoe: cleaning it up and uplifting it from CLtL1 code into ANSI CL code
2020-04-17T20:17:15Z phoe: already got the restarts done and like 40% of conditions; remaining is 60% of conditions/handlers and the debugger
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2020-04-17T20:28:55Z alandipert: phoe that's awesome, i look forward to it. re: your earlier q. if i were you i'd try to focus on implementing exactly what's important to demonstrate and as little else as possible, a la Closette
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2020-04-17T20:30:04Z phoe: alandipert: I was thinking of that, but that would mean that I skip things like condition-restart association which are not strictly necessary but a) nice to have, b) standard
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2020-04-17T20:30:40Z phoe: I think it's doable to implement the full condition system while keeping it pedagogically viable
2020-04-17T20:31:18Z alandipert: very cool. well i'm excited to check it out, i would love to have a deep understanding of that stuff
2020-04-17T20:31:41Z phoe: alandipert: I have a mostly-ready WIP if you feel like giving it a review.
2020-04-17T20:31:48Z phoe: https://gist.github.com/phoe/5659f8e5d8ff85e99565de17e39e4449
2020-04-17T20:33:00Z phoe: it's mostly ready until the "Why not?" chapter
2020-04-17T20:33:25Z alandipert will read... eventually
2020-04-17T20:33:27Z phoe: which is a giant TODO that waits while I'm yak shaving a portable implementation of condition system
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2020-04-17T20:53:26Z TwoNotes: The LMDB package from quicklisp gets an "Unhandled memory fault at #x0" as soon as I do a PUT.  Are there any other LMDB wrappers?  Or is this still being maintained?
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2020-04-17T20:55:42Z phoe: TwoNotes: https://github.com/antimer/lmdb shows no commits since 2017
2020-04-17T20:56:03Z TwoNotes: I guess that answers that.
2020-04-17T20:56:30Z TwoNotes: I need a fast kay-value store from Lisp
2020-04-17T20:58:12Z TwoNotes: Looking at (ql:system-apropos "sql") I see just about all of them are quite old
2020-04-17T20:58:32Z Xach: 2017 is not so distant as to mean unmaintained!
2020-04-17T20:58:57Z Xach: old does not mean that it does not work well automatically
2020-04-17T20:59:09Z TwoNotes: Even the latest open issue for antimer/lmdb is form 2017
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2020-04-17T21:01:21Z p_l: TwoNotes: a lot of lisp code is very stable
2020-04-17T21:01:28Z TwoNotes: Still, the source code is only 600 lines - I supposed I could dig into it.  But I hate debugging someone else's code when I am trying to get something done.
2020-04-17T21:01:41Z p_l: unless the external interface changes then usually there's no need to update
2020-04-17T21:01:53Z TwoNotes: It might be that the underlying liblmdb has changed in some inc,ompatible way
2020-04-17T21:05:24Z Xach: I use postmodern a lot but I don't know if it fits your need for a fast key-value store.
2020-04-17T21:06:36Z phoe: TwoNotes: I was about to suggest postgres
2020-04-17T21:07:00Z phoe: ;; it's a NoSQL database with its binary JSON support
2020-04-17T21:07:42Z TwoNotes: phoe as far as I know, postgres is a SQL database.  Like MariahDB
2020-04-17T21:09:13Z Xach: Out of curiosity, what will you make with a fast key-value store?
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2020-04-17T21:10:17Z TwoNotes: It is a backing store form some natural language processing.  The data is a bunch of Merkle trees representing parses of text into b-trees.
2020-04-17T21:10:50Z TwoNotes: I am going to poke at this library a bit more though - perhaps I am using it wrong
2020-04-17T21:11:01Z TwoNotes: It never actually creates the disk files, which is suspicous
2020-04-17T21:12:23Z Xach: TwoNotes: i tried the example code and it worked ok for me.
2020-04-17T21:12:32Z TwoNotes: Aha
2020-04-17T21:12:40Z Xach: not an endorsement, but it did make some progress
2020-04-17T21:12:58Z TwoNotes: It may be I passed the wrong sort of pathname.  I had not wrapped it in that system-relative-pathname thingy
2020-04-17T21:13:17Z TwoNotes: Now that I see how the test case works
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2020-04-17T21:19:57Z Xach: good luck with it!
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2020-04-17T21:23:08Z pjb: theseb: because of the Turing Equivalence, all TC languages are extensions of other TC languages!
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2020-04-17T21:23:55Z pjb: theseb: the only thing, is that if you start from lambda calculus, you will have to simulate a whole universe to implement a complete CL, because CL has I/O and lambda-calculus none.
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2020-04-17T21:25:05Z pjb: theseb: (you must at least implement a file system, and a terminal input/output, and of course, some entity "user" to read and type at the terminal; you may not have to simulate the Milky Way…).
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2020-04-17T21:26:15Z TwoNotes: You could take the view that I/O is merely a run-time library and not part of the language proper
2020-04-17T21:27:01Z TwoNotes: I include the XKCD episode about Lisp only be reference
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2020-04-17T21:29:39Z pjb: minion: memo for [rg]: (shadow '(cons consp car cdr)) (defstruct (cons (:constructor cons (car cdr)) (:conc-name nil) (:predicate consp)) car cdr)  (cons 1 2) -> #S(cons :car 1 :cdr 2)
2020-04-17T21:29:39Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell [rg] when he/she/it next speaks.
2020-04-17T21:30:36Z pjb: minion: memo for [rg]: that said, on a lot of processors, storing the cdr before the car may be advantageous (optimizes cdr-following).
2020-04-17T21:30:36Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell [rg] when he/she/it next speaks.
2020-04-17T21:32:10Z phoe: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/cb2f7b6ee1badd6df0c8b8e4dbc6e13ed6f16a53/src/code/macros.lisp#L458
2020-04-17T21:32:18Z phoe: How does PROGV help user debug lexical variables?
2020-04-17T21:32:27Z phoe: I don't understand that part of the code.
2020-04-17T21:34:53Z phoe: I can trace this code all the way back to kmp.
2020-04-17T21:35:13Z Bike: initial revision of sbcl, lol
2020-04-17T21:35:56Z phoe: it's older than that, that code is from 1988
2020-04-17T21:35:56Z Bike: i guess it means you have access to whatever the old value was
2020-04-17T21:36:42Z Bike: or well, maybe not, since if it's a lexical variable it's not actually declared special probably, so you'd have to use symbol-value
2020-04-17T21:37:03Z phoe: this PROGV is only effective inside READ-IT
2020-04-17T21:37:17Z phoe: so literally only for a single READ+EVAL
2020-04-17T21:37:23Z Bike: sure.
2020-04-17T21:37:36Z Bike: i mean that the user could do like (1+ x) if x is the place
2020-04-17T21:37:43Z phoe: so it grabs a lexical variable, proclaims it locally special---
2020-04-17T21:37:45Z phoe: ooooooh
2020-04-17T21:37:46Z Bike: (except, again, not actually, unless x is a special variable)
2020-04-17T21:37:53Z Bike: it doesn't proclaim it locally special, it just binds it.
2020-04-17T21:38:08Z phoe: wait a second then
2020-04-17T21:38:27Z Bike: i think maybe this is _supposed_ to allow the (1+ x) thing but accidentally doesn't.
2020-04-17T21:38:27Z phoe: it binds a special variable... but then the user keeps on nonetheless using the lexical one for whatever reason?
2020-04-17T21:38:33Z Bike: i'm guessing, of course.
2020-04-17T21:38:45Z Bike: well, they won't have access to the lexical variable, the eval is done in a null lexical environment
2020-04-17T21:39:45Z phoe: I mean, if we have a symbol named X
2020-04-17T21:39:58Z phoe: PROGV causes X to be dynamically bound to, uhh, its previous value or something
2020-04-17T21:40:12Z Bike: it causes x to be bound but doesn't effect whether it is declared special.
2020-04-17T21:40:12Z phoe: but we still cannot use it without proclaiming it special
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2020-04-17T21:40:43Z phoe: why?
2020-04-17T21:40:50Z Bike: why what
2020-04-17T21:41:09Z phoe: what's the purpose of that?
2020-04-17T21:41:15Z Bike: of progv?
2020-04-17T21:41:23Z phoe: no, of that binding
2020-04-17T21:41:33Z phoe: of that particular progv in that particular place
2020-04-17T21:41:34Z Bike: well, like i said, i think they fucked it up
2020-04-17T21:42:50Z phoe: all that comes to my mind is SYMBOL-VALUE which will correctly fetch the bound dynavalue
2020-04-17T21:43:22Z phoe: but that in turn might screw up already bound dynamic variables
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2020-04-17T21:52:45Z theseb: say pedantically speaking....(lambda (x) (+ x 3)) is actually a function *definition* rather than a function right? .....just like + is really not a function but rather a symbol that evaluates to a function yes?
2020-04-17T21:53:02Z phoe: theseb: (lambda ...) evaluates to a function object
2020-04-17T21:53:09Z phoe: if you use it as a form, that is
2020-04-17T21:53:34Z Xach: theseb: you can talk about what something reads as vs what it evaluates to, sure.
2020-04-17T21:53:41Z phoe: if you use it in instead of a function name, like ((lambda ...) ...), then it is a function definition, yes
2020-04-17T21:53:42Z theseb: phoe: exactly! but (lambda ...) itself is not a function!
2020-04-17T21:53:51Z theseb: phoe: ok
2020-04-17T21:53:52Z phoe: theseb: what do you mean, "is not a function"
2020-04-17T21:53:58Z phoe: it is a list
2020-04-17T21:54:02Z theseb: phoe: it is a function *definition*
2020-04-17T21:54:05Z Xach: theseb: sometimes the context implies evaluation, but it isn't always crystal clear.
2020-04-17T21:54:08Z theseb: phoe: ok..a function definition list
2020-04-17T21:54:12Z phoe: it is a list whose first element is the symbol LAMBDA
2020-04-17T21:54:21Z phoe: and what it means depends on the context in which it is used
2020-04-17T21:55:18Z Xach: sometimes it can be very helpful to be extra precise, sometimes not
2020-04-17T21:55:47Z phoe: if we want to be pedantic, then ((lambda ...) ...) is equivalent to (funcall (lambda ...) ...) and therefore the function "definition" is nonetheless reduced to a function object
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2020-04-17T21:57:37Z pjb: theseb: (lambda (x) (+ x 3)) is a sexp.  It's a list. It's a cons cell.  It contains the symbol, assumedly CL:LAMBDA, in its car, and the list ((x) (+ x 3)) in it's cdr.
2020-04-17T21:57:50Z pjb: theseb: ask your implementation! (inspect '(lambda (x) (+ x 3)))
2020-04-17T21:58:26Z Xach: theseb: what prompts the question?
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2020-04-17T21:58:57Z pjb: theseb: as phoe says, ((lambda (x) (+ x 3)) 4) has the same form as (sin 4) which shows that (lambda (x) (+ x 3)) can be considered as the "name" of the function (lambda (x) (+ x 3)).
2020-04-17T21:59:31Z LdBeth: Well lambda is a macro expends to (function (lambda (...) ...))
2020-04-17T22:01:10Z LdBeth: For consistency, (foo ...) can be treat to be equivalent to (funcall #'foo ...)
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2020-04-17T22:43:55Z theseb: Xach: i'm implementing my own little lisp and want to understand the low level details perfectly.....it is sort of a labor of love...that is why the question
2020-04-17T22:44:08Z Xach: ah
2020-04-17T22:44:51Z theseb: thanks all for the help..until next time
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2020-04-17T23:00:29Z phoe: wait
2020-04-17T23:01:49Z phoe: I need to understand why (progv '(x) '(10) (eval 'x)) works
2020-04-17T23:02:09Z phoe: X is not proclaimed special anywhere
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2020-04-17T23:04:30Z phoe: ...I think I got it
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2020-04-17T23:41:23Z LdBeth: phoe: so progv should implicitly declare special
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2020-04-17T23:56:28Z pjb: phoe: because clhs progv says: progv creates new dynamic variable bindings and executes each form using those bindings.
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2020-04-17T23:57:58Z pjb: phoe: it's  equivalent to (let ((x 10)) (declare (special x)) (eval 'x))  but not to:  (let ((x 10)) (locally (declare (special x)) (eval 'x))) #| ERROR: Unbound variable: x |#
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2020-04-18T00:25:04Z Josh_2: Does Ironclad only support aes with 32byte keys instead of 128/256?
2020-04-18T00:25:07Z Josh_2: or am I missing something
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2020-04-18T00:31:34Z no-defun-allowed: Is AES defined for 128 or 256 bytes?
2020-04-18T00:32:04Z no-defun-allowed: "AES-256" refers to 256 bits (32 bytes), much like SHA-256
2020-04-18T00:32:25Z Josh_2: Well I was missing something then :P
2020-04-18T00:37:08Z Josh_2: I much prefer it when I missed something, instead of a feature being missing
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2020-04-18T02:31:35Z White_Flame: is there a simple pattern or utility for testing if REMOVE successfully removed an item, without re-walking the sequence?
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2020-04-18T02:32:03Z White_Flame: I guess sine I'm using lists, LENGTH would still have to walk it; could work for arrays
2020-04-18T02:32:31Z White_Flame: (actually, length would end up with 3 walks, old length, remove, new length)
2020-04-18T02:32:56Z White_Flame: the other option that comes to mind is setting a flag from inside the :test function
2020-04-18T02:33:36Z White_Flame: any others, besides writing your own REMOVE?
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2020-04-18T02:42:31Z Bike: you could use member, and avoid any redundant processing that way
2020-04-18T02:42:36Z Bike: kind of roudnabout though
2020-04-18T02:42:44Z Bike: also, only works for lists
2020-04-18T02:43:31Z Bike: oh, no, better
2020-04-18T02:43:37Z Bike: "If any elements need to be removed, the result will be a copy. The result of remove may share with sequence; the result may be identical to the input sequence if no elements need to be removed. "
2020-04-18T02:43:53Z Bike: i suppose that doesn't guarantee that it's identical, though
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2020-04-18T02:49:53Z White_Flame: right
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2020-04-18T02:50:33Z White_Flame: for my PUSHNEW?, I simply do (eq ,place (pushnew ,val ,place...)) and it's fine
2020-04-18T02:51:30Z Bike: that will evaluate place's subforms twice... i guess it probably doesn't matter
2020-04-18T02:52:00Z White_Flame: yep.  Is there a pattern for evaluating place's subforms only once?
2020-04-18T02:52:52Z Bike: use get-setf-expansion. that basically means reimplementing pushnew, but that's pretty easy since it's just adjoin
2020-04-18T02:52:54Z White_Flame: I mean, most updating forms have ,place twice
2020-04-18T02:53:19Z Bike: the standard ones only evaluate subforms once
2020-04-18T02:53:34Z White_Flame: right, I mean when writing read-mody-write macros on places
2020-04-18T02:54:03Z White_Flame: in any case, I'll write my REMOVE? with manual iteration
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2020-04-18T02:54:18Z Bike: define-modify-macro operators only evaluate them once too. all you have to do is use the get setf expansion and then you can put the reader form wherever
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2020-04-18T04:06:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-18T04:18:35Z shukryzablah: good morning
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2020-04-18T04:27:20Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning shukryzablah
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2020-04-18T07:27:53Z phoe: pjb: thanks, I see.
2020-04-18T07:27:56Z phoe: Also good morning
2020-04-18T07:28:07Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning phoe
2020-04-18T07:33:52Z beach: Hello phoe.  Thanks for the report on SICL conditions.  I am not going to act upon it now, because those conditions are not final.  They may change in the future.
2020-04-18T07:34:14Z phoe: beach: yes, I've noticed! The condition system in SICL looks like a big WIP.
2020-04-18T07:34:32Z beach: You are right.
2020-04-18T07:34:45Z beach: I am concentrating on solving problems that I consider fundamental.
2020-04-18T07:34:52Z beach: Bootstrapping is one such problem.
2020-04-18T07:34:57Z phoe: Yep, understandable.
2020-04-18T07:35:11Z beach: And, as of this morning, thanks to Bike, I am thinking more about thread safety too.
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2020-04-18T08:36:39Z beach: phoe: Since you now know so much about the condition system, perhaps you should be the one implementing the SICL condition system?
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2020-04-18T08:37:36Z phoe: beach: I was thinking about that, yes
2020-04-18T08:37:42Z beach: Great!
2020-04-18T08:38:06Z phoe: The code I am working on shall be placed into public domain; it's also implemented using portable CL.
2020-04-18T08:38:08Z jackdaniel: I imagine beach wouldn't want it to be defined in terms of defstruct (just saying)
2020-04-18T08:38:20Z phoe: Yes, that's the only thing that'll need adjustment - restarts using defstruct
2020-04-18T08:38:38Z phoe: conditions are already classes.
2020-04-18T08:38:45Z beach: It won't matter, since SICL DEFSTRUCT will be pretty much an alias for DEFCLASS.
2020-04-18T08:38:54Z phoe: Hah!
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2020-04-18T08:45:22Z beach: phoe: There might be some adaptation to make for SICL.  I was thinking of having dedicated entries in the dynamic environment for things like handlers, rather than using a special variable.
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2020-04-18T08:46:08Z phoe: beach: (define-symbol-macro *handler-clusters* (handler-clusters *current-environment*))
2020-04-18T08:46:10Z beach: phoe: But my knowledge of the condition system tells me that most of it is totally portable either way, and that such adaptations can be isolated with a proper protocol.
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2020-04-18T08:46:44Z phoe: oh wait, it's *not* that simple - we need rebinding
2020-04-18T08:47:08Z phoe: and I don't think we should mutate the current environment, rather, we should return new ones.
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2020-04-18T08:47:29Z beach: I still haven't looked at the details of you code, but I am convinced that no major problems will be detected.
2020-04-18T08:47:37Z phoe: I don't think so either
2020-04-18T08:48:11Z phoe: if I can rebind a dynamic environment via rebinding a dynamic variable, then only minor adjustments are needed
2020-04-18T08:48:37Z phoe: instead of binding *handler-clusters* with (cons stuff *handler-clusters*), I can bind *env* with (env-add-handlers *env* stuff)
2020-04-18T08:48:38Z beach: And I think a totally fresh implementation of the condition system is a very good thing, especially by someone like you who have understood the importance of protocols, modularity, etc.
2020-04-18T08:49:02Z phoe: beach: it's not totally fresh, I'm standing on the shoulders of kmp whose code I'm working on
2020-04-18T08:49:20Z phoe: but, given the amount of work that I'm putting there... it's clearly a non-trivial modification that I am creating right now
2020-04-18T08:49:34Z beach: Indeed.
2020-04-18T08:49:47Z no-defun-allowed: Are you referring to http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Revision-18.lisp?
2020-04-18T08:49:52Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: yes
2020-04-18T08:50:47Z phoe: one second, let me upload this all stuff to github
2020-04-18T08:51:20Z beach: phoe: I am not going to have time to look at it now.  I must finish my ELS talks.
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2020-04-18T08:52:09Z phoe: beach: I know, but no-defun-allowed might
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2020-04-18T08:52:18Z beach: Of course.  Just saying.
2020-04-18T08:52:40Z phoe: Take your time! No rush anywhere
2020-04-18T08:52:48Z phoe: ...hmm, how should I name this project
2020-04-18T08:52:52Z beach: Right.
2020-04-18T08:53:09Z phoe: "kmp-condition-system" kind of isn't true anymore - this isn't KMP's original system now that it's been heavily modded
2020-04-18T08:55:16Z phoe: "condition-system" is like naming your child "Child"
2020-04-18T08:55:57Z beach: Yeah.  I was looking for things like "exclusion".
2020-04-18T08:56:37Z beach: I looked for synonyms of "condition" and then "exception", in a way that I usually do. :)
2020-04-18T08:57:02Z beach: You need something short-ish for the package prefix.
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2020-04-18T08:58:01Z beach: I can't see myself typing SICL-KMP-CONDITION-SYSTEM:RESTARTS
2020-04-18T08:58:03Z phoe: beach: I don't necessarily do! Package-local nicknames exist nowadays.
2020-04-18T08:58:05Z jackdaniel: kpcs, cryptic names have a certain appeal
2020-04-18T08:58:20Z beach: phoe: Granted.
2020-04-18T08:58:29Z phoe: Are they implemented in SICL yet?
2020-04-18T08:58:39Z beach: No, but that should not be too hard.
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2020-04-18T08:58:58Z beach: I am working on the hard parts, and they are taking up all my time at the moment.
2020-04-18T08:59:16Z beach: As soon as I estimate some aspect to be "not too hard" I put it off.
2020-04-18T08:59:35Z phoe: OK. Let's discuss about nicknames another time then - I'll think of a proper long package name first.
2020-04-18T08:59:47Z beach: I agree.
2020-04-18T09:00:50Z no-defun-allowed: Good luck. I wanted to update it to ANSI Common Lisp a while ago, but I don't know enough about what I presume is CLtL1-era code.
2020-04-18T09:01:23Z no-defun-allowed: phoe: Sure, I could take a look at it soon.
2020-04-18T09:04:44Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: I am boring
2020-04-18T09:04:49Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/portable-condition-system
2020-04-18T09:04:53Z phoe: I gave it a boring name
2020-04-18T09:05:05Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: everything but `debugger.lisp` is kind of done now
2020-04-18T09:07:29Z phoe: I've also broken up {RESTART,HANDLER}-CASE into smaller functions that can be individually tested.
2020-04-18T09:08:03Z no-defun-allowed: Right then.
2020-04-18T09:08:17Z phoe: The original implementations of these by kmp, as well as these commonly seen in Lisp impls, are giant blocks of clusterfsck code.
2020-04-18T09:08:27Z phoe: Not really readable whatsoever unless you spend a few minutes understanding them.
2020-04-18T09:08:30Z jackdaniel: are they?
2020-04-18T09:08:48Z phoe: jackdaniel: point taken, I have not seen ECL's
2020-04-18T09:08:50Z phoe: lemme check
2020-04-18T09:08:57Z jackdaniel: I mean: it is easy to assume that your code is understandable, because you wrote it
2020-04-18T09:10:11Z phoe: jackdaniel: https://github.com/rtoy/cmucl/blob/52a93a052ba57908d30861466fa5372e8fc1c0da/src/code/error.lisp#L1170 is pretty close to kmp's original code
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2020-04-18T09:10:14Z phoe: so is https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/blob/b5233ade1423d4979b902bdc4b3d380cac9955b8/lib/macros.lisp#L427
2020-04-18T09:10:23Z jackdaniel: also, I think that you are very haste with dubbing things dead, unreadable or whatever
2020-04-18T09:10:26Z phoe: I cannot comment on ECL's one since it's written in C
2020-04-18T09:10:34Z phoe: jackdaniel: I think you are right, yes
2020-04-18T09:10:54Z phoe: I need to better my holding-my-horses ability
2020-04-18T09:11:05Z jackdaniel: it is first time I hear that ECL's condition system is written in C
2020-04-18T09:11:22Z jackdaniel: it is usable from C, but that is not the same thing
2020-04-18T09:11:42Z jackdaniel: see src/clos/conditions.lsp
2020-04-18T09:11:45Z phoe: one second...
2020-04-18T09:12:03Z jackdaniel: it is not about holding horses but rather about thinking before speaking
2020-04-18T09:12:23Z phoe: welp, I looked in the wrong place - *restart-clusters* is defined in C
2020-04-18T09:12:32Z phoe: the macros are in CL, correct
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2020-04-18T09:12:56Z jackdaniel: wrong again
2020-04-18T09:13:02Z jackdaniel: how is it defined in C?
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2020-04-18T09:13:50Z jackdaniel: this time by "it" I mean *restart-clusters*
2020-04-18T09:14:10Z jackdaniel: it is literally third form in conditions.lsp file
2020-04-18T09:14:13Z phoe: welp
2020-04-18T09:14:28Z jackdaniel disengages
2020-04-18T09:14:58Z phoe: #define ECL_RESTART_CLUSTERS    ((cl_object)(cl_symbols+5)) didn't mean what I think it did.
2020-04-18T09:15:02Z phoe hides in shame
2020-04-18T09:15:30Z phoe: now that's a good example of not thinking before speaking that you were talking about
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2020-04-18T09:18:34Z no-defun-allowed: So far, it's pretty good. HANDLER-CASE with a :NO-ERROR clause expands to something that contains a HANDLER-CASE* invocation that is never defined; should it just be HANDLER-CASE without the star suffix?
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2020-04-18T09:20:15Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: that's a bug.
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2020-04-18T09:20:55Z phoe: fixed
2020-04-18T09:21:00Z phoe: yes, it should be without a star
2020-04-18T09:21:06Z no-defun-allowed: Gotcha.
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2020-04-18T09:24:02Z no-defun-allowed: Would it be possible and preferable to move the condition type definitions to another file? Usually I put those in another file.
2020-04-18T09:24:16Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: sure, I can do that
2020-04-18T09:24:47Z beach: This is excellent!  Another pair of eyes.  The quality of the code can only be improved. :)
2020-04-18T09:25:45Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks. I think conditions.lisp is very good otherwise; I'm not so confident with restarts but I'll start reading restarts.lisp
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2020-04-18T09:26:36Z phoe: there's still bugs in it but I'm squashing them right now
2020-04-18T09:29:17Z no-defun-allowed: Splitting out the parsing code from the macro definition in the macros that have some syntax like DEFINE-CONDITION and HANDLER-CASE is very nice, too.
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2020-04-18T09:35:03Z phoe: that's what I wanted to say I dislike in big long complex macros before I got a bucket of cold water to the head
2020-04-18T09:35:24Z phoe: anyway - I split condition definitions outside conditions.lisp and fixed some bugs, things now compile cleanly for me
2020-04-18T09:37:24Z no-defun-allowed: Cool.
2020-04-18T09:41:53Z no-defun-allowed: restarts.lisp looks fine, but I can't comment on if it's correct.
2020-04-18T09:42:27Z phoe: I'll ask ANSI-TEST for that last part
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2020-04-18T12:09:14Z jcowan: How about calling it Fettle?
2020-04-18T12:09:34Z phoe: hmm
2020-04-18T12:09:35Z jcowan: (the condition system for Sicl)
2020-04-18T12:09:48Z phoe: why fettle?
2020-04-18T12:09:55Z jcowan: an old-fashioned synonym for condition, like "in fine fettle" = "in good condition'.
2020-04-18T12:10:07Z jcowan: but an unusual word
2020-04-18T12:10:08Z beach: Oh, nice!  Never heard that.
2020-04-18T12:10:10Z phoe: hah
2020-04-18T12:10:45Z shka_: oh, we are discussing names now? awesome i am in need of cool names
2020-04-18T12:10:47Z beach: I love it!
2020-04-18T12:11:05Z shka_: i have data-frame library that i named cl-data-frames
2020-04-18T12:11:22Z beach: shka_: A bit boring perhaps. :)
2020-04-18T12:11:36Z shka_: not only that but there already is cl-data-frame library (singular) in the quicklisp
2020-04-18T12:11:40Z shka_: so imagine the confusion
2020-04-18T12:11:42Z phoe: i have a portable condition system that I named portable-condition-system
2020-04-18T12:12:15Z jcowan: Isn't a dataframe basically a SQL table?
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2020-04-18T12:13:24Z shka_: well, pretty much just a table (in this instance a sparse table because sparse data sets are results in giganils of memory) and some more elaborate operations
2020-04-18T12:13:41Z phoe: > giganil
2020-04-18T12:13:47Z phoe: now that is a fun term
2020-04-18T12:13:52Z MichaelRaskin: jcowan: looking in the dictionary, it looks like fettle is only used when it's fine (and the condition system should probably cover the cases where something is wrong…)
2020-04-18T12:14:30Z phoe: (not "in fine fettle")
2020-04-18T12:14:45Z jcowan: That's true: there are few perfect synonyms in natural language (though gorse, furze, and whin come close).
2020-04-18T12:14:59Z shka_: phoe: accurate description o situation where column is 99.99% empty and the table as a whole is 16gb
2020-04-18T12:15:23Z jcowan: The idea is to be (a) memorable as a name, (b) unlikely to conflict with anything (c) semantically related to the subject
2020-04-18T12:16:24Z shka_: jcowan: this sounds like a solid guidelines!
2020-04-18T12:16:29Z jcowan: There are two different HTML parsers called TagSoup, but fortunately their home pages are cross-linked
2020-04-18T12:16:36Z selwyn: i am reminded of the song 'just dropped in /  to see what condition my condition was in'
2020-04-18T12:16:45Z selwyn: you could look to the lyrics for inspiration
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2020-04-18T12:17:29Z shka_: 'Avidity and lust controlled by hate.'
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2020-04-18T12:18:41Z jcowan: so if you want the Java parser and find the Haskell parser, or vice versa, it's just another click
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2020-04-18T12:20:17Z shka_: phoe: i would call a condition system Gehenna :P
2020-04-18T12:20:35Z shka_: though perhaps better for debugger
2020-04-18T12:20:47Z phoe: shka_: you have a dark mind
2020-04-18T12:20:58Z phoe: I like it
2020-04-18T12:21:09Z shka_: no, i think that i have a very bright mind :P
2020-04-18T12:21:21Z shka_: but there are different opinions on the subject
2020-04-18T12:21:29Z phoe: I said dark, not dim
2020-04-18T12:21:46Z MichaelRaskin: Bright and full of sulfur?
2020-04-18T12:21:53Z phoe: definitely
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2020-04-18T12:29:34Z jcowan notes the proof that Heaven is hotter than Hell
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2020-04-18T13:11:16Z Shinmera: phoe: My name suggestion is: Unconditional
2020-04-18T13:11:44Z Shinmera goes back to working on the update for his lisp game
2020-04-18T13:13:33Z phoe: Shinmera: an unconditional condition system
2020-04-18T13:13:37Z phoe: :thonk:
2020-04-18T13:14:21Z Bike: well, if it's not metacircular, your condition system doesn't presume the existence of conditions, right?
2020-04-18T13:14:38Z Bike: un con di tion al
2020-04-18T13:15:31Z Bike: by the way, ecl's condition code is definitely derived from kmp. i mentioned yesterday (?) that clasp (which got it from ecl) still had that unique-id thing
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2020-04-18T13:26:46Z 
2020-04-18T13:26:46Z names: ccl-logbot shangul glamas refpga` Bike X-Scale EvW cosimone frgo Kundry_Wag Josh_2 gko theosvoitha hylisper Codaraxis_ KDr22 _jrjsmrtn random-nick niceplace retropikzel Lord_of_Life xlei Inline Posterdati Necktwi _whitelogger pve heisig srji shka_ _paul0 mikecheck gravicappa voidlily shifty sauvin orivej bjorkintosh vlatkoB jeosol mathrick_ shukryzablah vhost- efm mono penguwin Bourne cgay luckless nchambers q-u-a-n2 gxt theBlackDragon hhdave Lord_Nightmare
2020-04-18T13:26:46Z names: samebchase beach dilated_dinosaur whiteline emacsomancer flip214 scymtym davsebamse rwcom wooden markasoftware xristos felideon arbv kopiyka beaky defaultxr specbot troydm hdasch Aurora_v_kosmose Blukunfando zaquest leo_song dtman34 payphone cylb ``Erik_ rixard jonatack hvxgr nckx aeth gabiruh twelvemonkeys Intensity epony mrcom gigetoo notzmv reggie_ igemnace mgr_ minion aap ober ark cantstanya MightyJoe madage Yardanico White_Flame lavaflow mason banjiewen
2020-04-18T13:26:46Z names: sz0 tfb entel splittist lispyone_ clintm[m] mhitchman[m] no-defun-allowed Davd[m] Gnuxie[m] unl0ckd liambrown katco infra_red[m] LdBeth amnesic[m] Jachy oldtopman dvdmuckle chipolux moon-child alandipert nightfly sukaeto pjb drainful kiboneu TMA scal_ CrunchyChewie zigpaw5 samebchase-2 lemoinem terpri eschatologist jasom gabot joast Grauwolf grobe0ba jello_pudding aindilis cods KindOne Zotan himmAllRight dmiles Xach axion astronavt Jesin loli stepnem zymurgy
2020-04-18T13:26:46Z names: quazimodo zmt01 vsync heredoc grumble luis kilimanjaro jbgg creat vidak` abbe eagleflo APic phadthai drmeister Krystof xantoz swflint shinohai ski shymega Colleen drot flazh eMBee thonkpod Tordek vert2 CrazyEddy cracauer t3hyoshi fengshaun sh_zam datajerk jsatk parisienne_ z0d jackdaniel manualcrank nitrix ravndal larme froggey gingerale kim\ jackhill Oddity GreaseMonkey stux|RC-only yang rumbler31 Kaisyu7 karstensrage cybercafe pent lonjil asedeno hydan mgsk
2020-04-18T13:26:46Z names: Kemwer_ madand_ cmatei sjl SlashLife snits ft ecraven CommanderViral mjsir911 conjunctive ozzloy travv0 johs seisatsu remexre eta AdmiralBumbleBee copec ioa akkad Mandus Nikotiini hjudt acolarh tephra hiredman bmansurov sbryant_ Grue` tessier trn borodust adlai mgsk_ fouric simplegauss femi loke C-Keen edgar-rft Demosthenex funnel narendraj9 nullman lowryder spal lieven rumpelszn _death boeg thijso pok add^_ kingcons Ziemas MichaelRaskin jxy tumdum cpape easye
2020-04-18T13:26:46Z names: rotty kmeow d4ryus Shinmera esotericalgo winny idxu fiddlerwoaroof brass [df] mood Kabriel ramus zerous emma matijja bkst chewbranca Balooga p_l b0nn cg505 dxtr stux|RC cross koenig HiRE MetaYan gko` cdegroot chrpape knobo phoe jcob jurov Ekho @fe[nl]ix shenghi otwieracz cwaydt justinmcp_ |3b| kini guaqua trufas jdz Snow-Man michalisko mrSpec dyelar saturn2 interruptinuse r3x5 tomaw jgkamat Firedancer_ cpt_nemo Patzy sveit ck_ zagura azrazalea Inoperable
2020-04-18T13:26:46Z names: shrysr bhyde nydel mbrumlow Fade sgithens stylewarning tazjin jhei XachX gjnoonan jerme_ bytesighs fowlduck physpi avicenna Kaisyu CEnnis91 mpontillo rme gendl selwyn justache malm antoszka bacterio wigust- kbtr_ Ankhers SumoSud0- drewc trittweiler spacedbat Odin- Blkt lbtjp ult null_ptr HDurer thecoffemaker cyberlard jfb4 dlowe mjl billstclair jlpeters rvirding lukego l1x ssake jcowan
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2020-04-18T13:26:53Z jcowan: I forgot to mention condition (d): short.
2020-04-18T13:27:15Z jcowan: Unconditional is problematic just because it is so common.
2020-04-18T13:28:14Z phoe: Bike: all nitpicks are good, this is code that I want to be as clean as possible since it'll be educational material
2020-04-18T13:28:25Z phoe: just pushed newest fixes to it, too.
2020-04-18T13:28:30Z Bike: phoe: define-condition :report lambdas are in the wrong lexical environment (also repeatedly evaluated, which kind of sucks but is probably allowed). coerce-to-condition should accept a function as datum since functions can be format controls.
2020-04-18T13:28:34Z Bike: that's all i see so far
2020-04-18T13:28:43Z phoe: Bike: nice catches
2020-04-18T13:30:07Z phoe: in COERCE-TO-CONDITION, you mean that if datum is a function, then I should call (make-condition default-type :format-control datum :format-arguments arguments) ?
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2020-04-18T13:31:30Z Bike: yea.
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2020-04-18T13:34:21Z phoe: I wonder what you mean about the lexical environment though - https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1757#1757
2020-04-18T13:34:34Z phoe: local lexical functions are properly captured
2020-04-18T13:34:53Z Bike: I mean like (let ((x ...)) (define-condition ... (:report (lambda (stream) ...x...)))))
2020-04-18T13:35:19Z Bike: er, condition stream, whatevs
2020-04-18T13:36:03Z jcowan: This led me to wonder about Vacietis, the Common Lisp C compiler; it's the Lithuanian word for 'German', but the two famous people who bore it are both Latvian.
2020-04-18T13:36:07Z phoe: Bike: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1757#1758
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2020-04-18T13:36:23Z Bike: oh, i see
2020-04-18T13:36:32Z Bike: yeah, i'm wrong, the defmethod is in the same lexical environment so it works
2020-04-18T13:36:40Z phoe: yes, the defmethod is embedded into the resulting macroexpansion
2020-04-18T13:36:59Z phoe: it expands into (PROGN (DEFCLASS ...) (DEFMETHOD ...) 'NAME)
2020-04-18T13:37:31Z phoe: both of these are toplevel if DEFINE-CONDITION is toplevel, which AFAIU is the intended way
2020-04-18T13:40:54Z phoe: Bike: C-T-C fixed and pushed. Thanks!
2020-04-18T13:41:43Z phoe: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/297478350145060875/701061427854704680/Zrzut_ekranu_z_2020-04-18_15-27-44.png
2020-04-18T13:41:50Z phoe: Is this stylistically pleasing enough?
2020-04-18T13:42:16Z Bike: seems fine to me. What happens when printing a condition signals an error?
2020-04-18T13:42:26Z phoe: I don't handle this one yet. Let me fix it.
2020-04-18T13:46:21Z phoe: fixed, thanks.
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2020-04-18T14:27:35Z TwoNotes: Packages COMMON-LISP and LMDB both contain a method GET.  How do I :use :LMDB without getting a name conflict?  Something about :shadow I think.
2020-04-18T14:27:54Z beach: Don't :USE the LMDB package.
2020-04-18T14:28:34Z scymtym: if you must, you can use (:shadowing-import-from #:lmdb #:get) in your package. but as beach says, better don't
2020-04-18T14:28:42Z Xach: TwoNotes: it depends on which symbol you want to refer to when you write GET without a prefix.
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2020-04-18T14:29:02Z Xach: if you use (:shadow #:get), it refers to neither. otherwise you can chose with shadowing-import-from.
2020-04-18T14:29:09Z TwoNotes: I only reference it as (lmdb:get ...)
2020-04-18T14:29:30Z Xach: another option is not to use the package at all
2020-04-18T14:29:32Z Xach: as beach says
2020-04-18T14:29:48Z TwoNotes: So just the :depends-on in my ASD file is enough?
2020-04-18T14:30:00Z Xach: that will ensure it is loaded, yes
2020-04-18T14:30:09Z TwoNotes: ah ok.  Thnak you
2020-04-18T14:30:38Z beach: TwoNotes: The package name is short enough that you can prefix all the symbols from the LMDB package.  That way, your code automatically becomes more clear as well.
2020-04-18T14:30:49Z phoe: yes, four characters is short enough
2020-04-18T14:31:07Z Xach: i'm still intrigued by joe marshall's application structure, where no symbol is ever referred to by prefix.
2020-04-18T14:31:15Z Xach: i have never tried to seriously do that myself, though.
2020-04-18T14:32:08Z TwoNotes: All my LMDB references are in a single source file, so it is not a problem using the explicit lmdb: all the time.
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2020-04-18T14:37:58Z shka_: phoe: also: "Unhandled condition signaled, entering Gehenna." ;-)
2020-04-18T14:38:54Z phoe: shka_: if Gehenna is the condition system then the debugger should be named Day of Judgment
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2020-04-18T14:43:36Z shka_: phoe: debugger: gehenna, condition system: karma
2020-04-18T14:43:46Z shka_: because for the maximum effect, mix cultures
2020-04-18T14:45:50Z phoe: we don't have restarts, we have resurrection methods
2020-04-18T14:47:03Z shka_: also, fatal error may display "In this times you need more then an advice. You need Jesus."
2020-04-18T14:47:23Z shka_: ok, enough of fooling around, back to coding
2020-04-18T14:47:30Z phoe: yes
2020-04-18T14:49:15Z eta: is there a way to specify a maximum line length with READ-LINE?
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2020-04-18T14:52:10Z phoe: eta: nope
2020-04-18T14:52:22Z phoe: it reads until a newline
2020-04-18T14:52:40Z eta: phoe, so if I want this functionality, I should roll my own READ-LINE with READ-BYTE or something?
2020-04-18T14:52:46Z phoe: READ-CHAR
2020-04-18T14:52:52Z eta: yeah, that :)
2020-04-18T14:52:56Z phoe: you can implement a version which reads until #\Newline or until it has read 80 characters or something
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2020-04-18T14:54:16Z phoe: (with-output-to-string (loop with char = nil for i from 1 until (= i char-limit) do (setf char (read-char)) if (eql #\Newline char) do (loop-finish) else (write-char char)))
2020-04-18T14:54:22Z phoe: something like that, very roughly implementing
2020-04-18T14:54:23Z Shinmera: Could also do more complicated logic with read-sequence to avoid the char-by-char read.
2020-04-18T14:54:31Z eta: Shinmera, yeah, that's what I was thinking of
2020-04-18T14:54:32Z phoe: or what Shinmera says
2020-04-18T14:54:40Z eta: the problem is you'd end up reading too much
2020-04-18T14:55:39Z Shinmera: read seq, seek to eol, process up until that index, shift rest to front, read-sequence starting at that point, repeat.
2020-04-18T14:55:48Z Shinmera: Doubt it would end up faster though.
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2020-04-18T14:56:07Z eta: Shinmera, well read-sequence can probably use AVX or some other funky CPU instructions
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2020-04-18T14:56:24Z Shinmera: at 80 characters you're not gonna save a lot.
2020-04-18T14:56:31Z phoe: also the question is if you're reading from string or if you're reading from a normal stream
2020-04-18T14:56:31Z eta: hmmm
2020-04-18T14:56:35Z eta: it's a usocket
2020-04-18T14:56:39Z phoe: yes, that's worse
2020-04-18T14:56:40Z Shinmera: but as always, measure.
2020-04-18T14:56:49Z eta: so I don't really want to call READ-CHAR a million times on it
2020-04-18T14:56:50Z phoe: if you read too much then you need to unread that stuff somehow
2020-04-18T14:56:59Z phoe: and that means buffering
2020-04-18T14:57:17Z phoe: which you're likely going to do anyway if you want to do your own socketing
2020-04-18T14:57:20Z eta googles for buffered streams
2020-04-18T14:57:30Z eta: well I think you have to do your own socketing, no?
2020-04-18T14:57:33Z phoe: ;; come to the zeromq side, we have cookies
2020-04-18T14:57:45Z phoe: ;; and messages instead of streams!
2020-04-18T14:57:57Z eta: phoe, it's an SMTP server
2020-04-18T14:58:03Z eta: I can't make all SMTP clients in the world use ZMQ, sadly :P
2020-04-18T14:58:05Z phoe: ouch! my condolences
2020-04-18T14:58:16Z eta: phoe, hey, this is supposed to be a fun side project >_<
2020-04-18T14:58:27Z Shinmera: internet protocols are never a fun side project.
2020-04-18T14:58:41Z Shinmera just published an rss/atom lib today
2020-04-18T14:58:57Z phoe: yeah, I don't mean to discourage you or anything
2020-04-18T14:58:57Z eta: Shinmera, ah, but RSS is a uniquely bad disaster
2020-04-18T14:59:11Z Shinmera: Pretty standard fare for internet, in my opinion.
2020-04-18T14:59:15Z phoe: it's just that mailservers are damn complicated because SMTP itself is damn complicated
2020-04-18T14:59:18Z Shinmera: You ain't seen HTTP specs yet
2020-04-18T14:59:28Z eta: phoe, nah, SMTP seems pretty easy
2020-04-18T14:59:33Z eta: the hard part seems like MIME
2020-04-18T15:00:01Z Shinmera: eta: have you looked at cl-smtp, the client implementation?
2020-04-18T15:00:08Z jackdaniel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV4vHpqrj6E
2020-04-18T15:00:11Z Shinmera: it seems very likely that you can re-use parts of it.
2020-04-18T15:00:19Z jackdaniel: (muppet singing "MIME")
2020-04-18T15:00:33Z eta: Shinmera, thanks for the link, but I'll probably implement it all myself for """fun""" :p
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2020-04-18T15:00:49Z eta: Shinmera, (read: I'll probably use that when I get desperate, so thanks >_<)
2020-04-18T15:00:58Z Shinmera: Sure, I'm just saying it probably has solutions for problems you can adapt.
2020-04-18T15:01:16Z Shinmera: Using references always beats not
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2020-04-18T15:02:06Z eta: Shinmera, hmm, fair enough, I'll take a look :)
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2020-04-18T16:14:07Z TwoNotes: Can a defclass inherit from a superclass in a different package?
2020-04-18T16:14:27Z phoe: yes
2020-04-18T16:14:35Z phoe: (defclass my-class (other-package:other-class) ())
2020-04-18T16:14:53Z Shinmera: packages have nothing to do with classes.
2020-04-18T16:15:04Z TwoNotes: Great - thank you.  I have a "database" and a "parser" view of certain concepts which differ slightly.
2020-04-18T16:15:50Z Shinmera: a class is not 'in' a package. it is named by a symbol, which may be in one or many packages.
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2020-04-18T16:23:04Z beach: Shinmera: That attempt didn't seem to have worked.
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2020-04-18T16:23:28Z Shinmera: beach: Hm?
2020-04-18T16:23:41Z beach: Your attempt to teach some package basics.
2020-04-18T16:23:49Z Shinmera: Ah. Well, I won't lose any sleep over it.
2020-04-18T16:23:57Z beach: Good.
2020-04-18T16:23:57Z phoe: if anything, I'd link http://index-of.es/Programming/Lisp/Lisp%20Mess/Erann%20Gat%20-%20Idiots%20Guide%20To%20Lisp%20Packages.pdf
2020-04-18T16:25:47Z eta: can I extend a vector with another vector?
2020-04-18T16:25:59Z eta: wait, never mind
2020-04-18T16:26:05Z eta: I just realised that's a really inefficient way of doing it
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2020-04-18T16:27:16Z TwoNotes: phoe, that Idiot's Guide looks useful.  ty
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2020-04-18T16:32:53Z jackdaniel: speaking of classes and their names, is it conforming to expect, that metaclass is available *by name* (find-class) immedietely after the primary method for finalize-inheritance is called? (i.e in the after method)
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2020-04-18T16:33:42Z jackdaniel: if finalization is performed in initialize-instanc, and name is associated after make-instance finishes (i.e in ensure-class), then that would fail
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2020-04-18T16:36:02Z beach: I find that I am too tired to even understand what you mean.  If it can wait until tomorrow, I'll be in much better shape.
2020-04-18T16:36:10Z jackdaniel: alright, thank you
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2020-04-18T16:36:19Z jackdaniel: if I don't crack it myself today I'll bother you :)
2020-04-18T16:36:28Z beach: Sounds good.
2020-04-18T16:36:53Z beach: I am off to fix dinner for my (admittedly small) family, and then spend time with her.  I'll be back tomorrow morning (UTC+2).
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2020-04-18T16:37:03Z jackdaniel: see you o/
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2020-04-18T17:06:45Z phoe: jackdaniel: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ensure-class-using-class.html
2020-04-18T17:06:52Z phoe: jackdaniel: I think the class itself should be available by name only after ENSURE-CLASS is about to finish its operation
2020-04-18T17:07:23Z phoe: but let me dig into the MOP...
2020-04-18T17:07:42Z jackdaniel: that's my impression too
2020-04-18T17:07:51Z phoe: "The proper name of the newly created class metaobject is set to name."
2020-04-18T17:07:59Z phoe: what does it mean that "the proper name is set"
2020-04-18T17:08:14Z Xach: phoe: i never knew about *print-gensym*, thanks!
2020-04-18T17:08:15Z phoe: does it mean SETF FIND-CLASS is called with the name and the instance to associate the symbol and the instance?
2020-04-18T17:08:20Z phoe: Xach: ha! seriously?
2020-04-18T17:08:24Z Xach: seriously
2020-04-18T17:08:34Z Xach: just when you think you've seen most symbols...
2020-04-18T17:08:34Z phoe: well, glad to be of service
2020-04-18T17:08:53Z jackdaniel: phoe: class-name
2020-04-18T17:09:01Z phoe: jackdaniel: ooh, that.
2020-04-18T17:09:08Z phoe: Then this passage doesn't meant what I think it meant.
2020-04-18T17:09:14Z jackdaniel: afair it is defiend in defclass
2020-04-18T17:09:56Z phoe: but then again, it's not required to call DEFCLASS to have SETF FIND-CLASS called
2020-04-18T17:10:02Z phoe: user can call ENSURE-CLASS-USING-CLASS themselves
2020-04-18T17:10:54Z jackdaniel: class name is "proper" when (eq #1=(class-name class) (class-name (find-class #1# nil))) roughly speaking
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2020-04-18T17:11:14Z phoe: I see! so this implies that FIND-CLASS must work at that moment
2020-04-18T17:11:23Z jackdaniel: no, see the second argument
2020-04-18T17:12:02Z phoe: hm
2020-04-18T17:12:46Z phoe: one second though
2020-04-18T17:12:49Z jackdaniel: if the class is associated with its name after creation, then it is not conforming to expect that it is accessible by its name immedietely after its metaclass is finalized
2020-04-18T17:13:14Z jackdaniel: I suppose I have my conclusion. I know why it works on SBCL, but that's beside the point.
2020-04-18T17:13:20Z phoe: "The proper name of the newly created class metaobject is set to name. The newly created class metaobject is returned."
2020-04-18T17:13:42Z phoe: if the proper name is set, then it means that both CLASS-NAME and FIND-CLASS of that name must work *after* proper name is set
2020-04-18T17:13:52Z phoe: but not earlier than that
2020-04-18T17:14:01Z jackdaniel: sure
2020-04-18T17:14:16Z phoe: and there are no steps defined in the MOP between setting the name and returning the class metaobject
2020-04-18T17:14:47Z jackdaniel: I think that my question was misunderstood, but I'm also tired after long time to try to rephrase
2020-04-18T17:15:09Z phoe: OK - you got your answer, I'll not push that further
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2020-04-18T17:17:57Z phoe works on translating cl:conditions to pcs:conditions
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2020-04-18T17:25:34Z jcowan: phoe, shka: Doomsday would be better than Day of Judgment
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2020-04-18T17:57:53Z flip214: ESRAP is quite slower than CL-PPCRE - but much better to read! Using sprof reveals that 46% of time is spent in "LABELS ESRAP::RULE/TRANSFORM :IN ESRAP::COMPILE-RULE".
2020-04-18T17:58:11Z flip214: Is there some separate step to get the grammer compiled for good?
2020-04-18T17:59:00Z flip214: I'd have expected the rules to be compiled to simple functions that walk the input string... seems that there's much more going on
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2020-04-18T18:03:51Z scymtym: flip214: one of the goals nikodemus had for esrap was to not COMPILE rules but use the "tree of closures" compilation technique. that's the reason a closure made in COMPILE-RULE is executed at runtime. i will make that part a bit more efficient, but the biggest time sinks are result structures and the cache anyway
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2020-04-18T18:11:58Z didi: When should one use catch/throw instead of conditions?
2020-04-18T18:12:17Z flip214: scymtym: well, but parsing a file with 87000 lines takes 2.6 sec - and 46% of that time is in COMPILE-RULE?
2020-04-18T18:12:45Z flip214: scymtym: ah, I understand what you say.
2020-04-18T18:12:50Z phoe: flip214: IIUC it's not in COMPILE-RULE itself
2020-04-18T18:13:11Z phoe: it is inside some local function that was returned from COMPILE-RULE
2020-04-18T18:13:37Z phoe: didi: performance
2020-04-18T18:13:38Z jackdaniel: didi: when you want to implement a dynamic emergency exit
2020-04-18T18:13:46Z phoe: didi: https://gist.github.com/nikodemus/b461ab9146a3397dd93e
2020-04-18T18:14:08Z jackdaniel: (i.e you have recursive alpha-beta algorithm and you've found an answer with maximum score)
2020-04-18T18:14:40Z didi: phoe: Thank you.
2020-04-18T18:14:51Z flip214: well, is there some way to make it faster? I've got files with several million lines to parse as well... and CL-PPCRE "only" compiles to closures as well and is still much faster?!
2020-04-18T18:15:07Z didi: jackdaniel: Thank you.
2020-04-18T18:15:23Z eta: are there any buffered stream things?
2020-04-18T18:15:27Z phoe: technically speaking, a dynamic emergency exit like the one jackdaniel mentioned is possible to implement in conditions, (handler-case (some-form) (get-me-out-of-here ())) and then (signal 'get-me-out-of-here) anywhere in the dynamic extent of (some-form)
2020-04-18T18:15:40Z phoe: ;; and it even won't crash, unlike a throw with no matching catch tag
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2020-04-18T18:15:48Z phoe: however, walking the handler stack is costly
2020-04-18T18:15:51Z didi: oic
2020-04-18T18:16:10Z phoe: that gist by nikodemus mentions the performance hit if you perform a *lot* of backtracking via condition handling
2020-04-18T18:16:27Z phoe: for a single transfer of control, the difference will likely be negligible
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2020-04-18T18:17:48Z phoe: for hundreds, thousands, millions - it'll stack and heavily slow your stuff down
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2020-04-18T18:20:05Z jackdaniel: how about billions?
2020-04-18T18:20:08Z jackdaniel: will it work fast?
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2020-04-18T18:21:45Z phoe: jackdaniel: if your implementation is 32-bit, then it might speed back up just after you pass four billion - 4294967296 to be exact
2020-04-18T18:21:58Z phoe: but, as always, measure
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2020-04-18T18:43:11Z flip214: when TIME says (on sbcl) "269 lambdas converted", does that mean that these lambda were not compiled before?
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2020-04-18T18:58:43Z flip214: scymtym: just as a quick log of what I tried: https://github.com/phmarek/esrap
2020-04-18T18:58:59Z flip214: got me from ;;   9.995 seconds of real time
2020-04-18T18:59:07Z flip214: to ;;   7.486 seconds of real time
2020-04-18T18:59:12Z flip214: for my workload
2020-04-18T18:59:44Z flip214: 19.9G CPU cycles to 14.9G cycles
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2020-04-18T21:18:43Z fadieller: how are m expressions different? they just use [] instead of ()?
2020-04-18T21:25:56Z scymtym: flip214: replying to "and cl-ppcre …": as i said, the "tree of closures" technique is /not/ the worst bottleneck, so "cl-ppcre is fast therefore esrap should be fast" is invalid
2020-04-18T21:26:28Z scymtym: esrap is a slow parser. partly due to its architecture and partly due to its implementation. i have been working on eliminating some of the reason on the implementation side, but the speedups have been moderate
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2020-04-18T21:32:08Z scymtym: flip214: regarding "lambdas converted", since esrap does not call COMPILE, it has to be something else such as generic functions being called for the first time or after methods have changed. in case of compiler invocations within generic function dispatch, just rerunning the benchmark should make the compiler invocations disappear
2020-04-18T21:35:38Z scymtym: flip214: regarding the optimizations you tried: the cache can be disabled per-rule with the (:cache nil) option. esrap also disables the cache automatically if it can determine that it is safe to do so and the rule expression in question is simple enough. compiling things with (speed 3) may help, but that is a decision i would rather leave to the library user
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2020-04-19T02:57:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-19T03:34:50Z [rg]: Bike hello
2020-04-19T03:34:51Z minion: [rg], memo from pjb: (shadow '(cons consp car cdr)) (defstruct (cons (:constructor cons (car cdr)) (:conc-name nil) (:predicate consp)) car cdr)  (cons 1 2) -> #S(cons :car 1 :cdr 2)
2020-04-19T03:34:51Z minion: [rg], memo from pjb: that said, on a lot of processors, storing the cdr before the car may be advantageous (optimizes cdr-following).
2020-04-19T03:35:05Z Bike: um, hi?
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2020-04-19T03:35:37Z [rg]: pinged you since you read the ken thompson paper
2020-04-19T03:35:55Z [rg]: I suspect CLIST and NLIST where just arrays
2020-04-19T03:36:01Z [rg]: what do you think?
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2020-04-19T03:40:49Z beach: [rg] I am not Bike, but what paper are you talking about, and what is CLIST and NLIST?
2020-04-19T03:41:39Z [rg]: ken thompson's construction http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/363347.363387  (free for now)
2020-04-19T03:41:51Z [rg]: prompted my search into lisp implementation
2020-04-19T03:42:05Z Bike: acm being real slow today...
2020-04-19T03:42:22Z [rg]: do you like the new website? I don't
2020-04-19T03:42:35Z Bike: i think i like it better than the old website, but that's not saying much.
2020-04-19T03:43:20Z beach: [rg]: I must have missed the context.  How is that paper related to Common Lisp?
2020-04-19T03:44:08Z [rg]: at first I thought that CLIST and NLIST where implemented using the same technique for cons cdr and car
2020-04-19T03:44:24Z beach: What is CLIST and NLIST?
2020-04-19T03:44:44Z [rg]: so I came here to find about original implementation details, and how those things work
2020-04-19T03:44:52Z Bike: two linked lists desribed by the paper. at least i think they're linked lists.
2020-04-19T03:45:01Z beach: I see.
2020-04-19T03:45:02Z [rg]: list's maintained by the program that have derivations of a regxp
2020-04-19T03:45:27Z Bike: the program is written in algol 60, so the connection is somewhat tenuous. i doubt this algorithm relies on specific machine details or anything
2020-04-19T03:45:34Z Bike: though it sure has a lot of assembly listings
2020-04-19T03:46:03Z Bike: oh, the program outputs machine code. i see.
2020-04-19T03:47:03Z [rg]: it also relies on CNODE and NNODE routines, which is the most complex part
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2020-04-19T03:51:32Z Bike: i'm not familiar with the IBM 7094, so I can't read this very well, but I suspect the "lists" might just be what i'd call arrays. i don't see anything that looks like dynamic memory allocation
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2020-04-19T03:53:16Z [rg]: yes I got that feeling as well, it's just weird, how does if find the subroutines? and how did they say where to allocate memory
2020-04-19T03:53:29Z [rg]: oh well, thanks anyways Bike
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2020-04-19T03:56:32Z mr_yogurt: is there an easy way to get the value in a slot with :allocation :class from the class itself? like (some-function (find-class 'my-class) 'my-slot)
2020-04-19T03:57:15Z Bike: not particularly. you can do (slot-value (mop:class-prototype (find-class 'my-class)) 'my-slot), though.
2020-04-19T04:01:09Z mr_yogurt: that works, thank you
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2020-04-19T07:45:15Z no-defun-allowed: What do various implementations with threads on multiple processors provide as the return value of GET-INTERNAL-RUN-TIME? I understand that it's implementation dependent, but I'm curious as to how "run time" is interpreted by different people.
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2020-04-19T07:47:17Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL interprets it to be the processor time used by all threads as it calls getrusage.
2020-04-19T07:48:43Z no-defun-allowed: Same with Clozure. Perhaps that question had more varied answers in my imagination.
2020-04-19T07:55:11Z flip214: scymtym: yeah, I know about :cache nil. I just wanted a quick test without _any_ caching. Perhaps a esrap:*default-cache* would be nice, so that the ~30 rules don't have to specify that each and every time?
2020-04-19T07:55:57Z flip214: scymtym: and having an optimization level for a library isn't uncommon... it shows confidence ;)
2020-04-19T08:01:40Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: is there a reason to use g-i-run-t over g-i-real-t? I guess g-i-run-t only goes up when computations are going up?
2020-04-19T08:01:51Z aeth: maybe useful for REPL benchmarking...
2020-04-19T08:02:50Z splittist:  /me is happy with his new lisp workstation (slime+sbcl rpi4)
2020-04-19T08:03:07Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: That is how I interpret g-i-run-t, yes. However, if I had 12 (24 in your case) threads doing nothing very quickly, then -run- would increment faster than -real-.
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2020-04-19T08:04:31Z aeth: yeah, only 24
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2020-04-19T08:04:38Z no-defun-allowed: splittist: Have you tested threads on the Pi 4? I have meant to get a newer Pi lately, but for whatever reason they're more expensive than I recall.
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2020-04-19T08:05:40Z no-defun-allowed: (What kind of douchebag vendor discontinues the 1GB version and tells people to get the 2GB version? That's more money.)
2020-04-19T08:06:13Z aeth: I still haven't set up my Pi 3 yet
2020-04-19T08:06:34Z aeth: setting up a machine takes time
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2020-04-19T09:16:12Z vms14: https://termbin.com/j40dq now I have this
2020-04-19T09:16:19Z vms14: but I dislike this code so much
2020-04-19T09:16:27Z vms14: I want to rewrite it entirely
2020-04-19T09:16:39Z vms14: I'm doing a lot of similar things again and again
2020-04-19T09:17:19Z beach: vms14: You should use three semicolons for top-level comments.
2020-04-19T09:17:31Z vms14: which top level comments?
2020-04-19T09:17:48Z beach: Anything that is not inside a top-level form.
2020-04-19T09:18:11Z beach: Like ;;; Two lists for having time based code.
2020-04-19T09:18:19Z beach: Like ;;; These structures...
2020-04-19T09:18:26Z vms14: and the following ones with ;; ?
2020-04-19T09:18:32Z vms14: like they start a block
2020-04-19T09:18:41Z phoe: vms14: let me show you an example
2020-04-19T09:18:55Z beach: clhs 2.4.4.2
2020-04-19T09:18:55Z specbot: Notes about Style for Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddb.htm
2020-04-19T09:19:03Z beach: vms14: It is all written there.
2020-04-19T09:19:13Z beach: clhs 2.4.4.2.3
2020-04-19T09:19:13Z specbot: Use of Triple Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddbc.htm
2020-04-19T09:20:00Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1762#1762
2020-04-19T09:20:00Z phoe: that
2020-04-19T09:20:05Z phoe: that is a *very* big tl;dr
2020-04-19T09:20:10Z beach: vms14: There is no particular reason to have a newline after LOOP.
2020-04-19T09:20:35Z phoe makes a quick fix up there, please F5
2020-04-19T09:22:56Z vms14: thanks to both for the hints
2020-04-19T09:23:03Z beach: Sure.
2020-04-19T09:23:39Z vms14: specially for the example, phoe. This way I can't get it wrong :D
2020-04-19T09:25:57Z phoe: CLHS also has an example at 2.4.4.2.5, but it doesn't contain an example for single semi
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2020-04-19T09:29:27Z didi: So TIL `read-char' can be slow even with a string stream.
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2020-04-19T11:35:03Z pjb: didi: how can it be slow on a string stream? (I assume you mean a character stream opened on a string with with-input-from-string).
2020-04-19T11:36:53Z phoe: didi: do you have any TIME results you'd like to share?
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2020-04-19T11:46:31Z didi: Your skepticism helped. SPROF showed >60% of time spent in `read-char', even when running from a in-memory stream. But a simple `read-char' loop was fast. Now I think it's my playing with echo and concatenated streams.
2020-04-19T11:46:57Z didi: I do a lot of those.
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2020-04-19T12:16:24Z phoe: minion: memo for pfdietz: Could you please add a LICENSE to ANSI-TEST? I would like to use some tests from it to test my portable condition system, but I cannot do that without knowing under what terms I can use ANSI-TEST contents.
2020-04-19T12:16:24Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pfdietz when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-04-19T12:27:01Z phoe: Terminology question.
2020-04-19T12:27:20Z phoe: ASSERT signals a continuable error, because it binds a CONTINUE restart.
2020-04-19T12:27:34Z phoe: CHECK-TYPE does not signal a continuable error, because the restart is named STORE-VALUE.
2020-04-19T12:27:48Z phoe: Is the above correct?
2020-04-19T12:28:25Z Bike: based on the glossary, yeah, seems so
2020-04-19T12:28:38Z Bike: oh, i see, there's the more general "correctable"
2020-04-19T12:28:49Z phoe: ooooh!
2020-04-19T12:28:54Z phoe: That is the term that I was looking for
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2020-04-19T12:30:54Z phoe: the back of my head knew there was a term that looked like "co...able" but the front of it couldn't remember it
2020-04-19T12:31:00Z phoe: Bike: thanks
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2020-04-19T12:33:44Z Bike: the page for check-type says its error is "correctable", see
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2020-04-19T12:37:26Z phoe: yes, I see that now
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2020-04-19T12:55:40Z didi: A silly example of concatenated streams and `read-char': https://paste.debian.net/hidden/4056cbea
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2020-04-19T12:57:40Z didi: Or if we want to isolate `read-char': https://paste.debian.net/hidden/e51ef1ce
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2020-04-19T12:59:22Z Bike: are you actually doing something like that in an application?
2020-04-19T12:59:45Z didi: Bike: Eeer, no, no... a friend of mine is doing it...
2020-04-19T12:59:56Z didi looks nervous
2020-04-19T13:00:56Z Bike: i wouldn't expect good performance, is all
2020-04-19T13:01:05Z didi: TIL
2020-04-19T13:02:13Z Bike: it looks like in sbcl, each read char will check all the streams in order, so in your example it'll usually find EOFs in a few thousand streams before getting to the actually open one
2020-04-19T13:02:34Z Bike: wait, no, it does alter the streams as it goes
2020-04-19T13:03:00Z didi: My overall idea was giving back to a stream more than a single character. I will think of something else.
2020-04-19T13:03:26Z Bike: like for unread-char? can you not change your algorithms to not need that?
2020-04-19T13:03:57Z didi: Bike: Yes, like `unread-char', but with more characters. I'll try to change it.
2020-04-19T13:06:09Z Shinmera: Bike: something like that is happening in qtools to do dynamic function generation when the function is called.
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2020-04-19T13:07:57Z Shinmera: requires reader hacks to simulate a customisable intern
2020-04-19T13:08:14Z Shinmera: which in turn uses concatenated streams to simulate unreading more than one char.
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2020-04-19T13:14:17Z didi: It's a good idea, isn't it? I expected the first stream would be dropped as soon as it was exhaust, but I don't think it's happening.
2020-04-19T13:15:50Z Bike: i was wrong, the standard actually requires it's dropped
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2020-04-19T13:15:54Z Bike: clhs concatenated-stream-streams
2020-04-19T13:15:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_conc_1.htm
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2020-04-19T13:16:31Z didi: oic
2020-04-19T13:16:41Z Shinmera: Bike: where do you see that? It says the list /may/ be empty.
2020-04-19T13:17:08Z Bike: "still has to read from"
2020-04-19T13:17:45Z Shinmera: hrm
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2020-04-19T13:18:05Z Shinmera: I wouldn't interpret that as a guarantee.
2020-04-19T13:18:29Z Shinmera: Especially since then it would have to be empty if there's nothing to read from anymore.
2020-04-19T13:18:37Z Shinmera: Rather than just 'may'
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2020-04-19T13:21:46Z amerlyq: (grunts-of-old) The more I try different prg languages in real-world scenarios on "large enough" projects, the more I wonder why people are NOT using lisp in the first place, as the most natural way to interactively build bridge of abstractions between human perception and hardware details. Oh my... There is so much complexity people keep in their heads only to avoid using Lisp at all costs, even
2020-04-19T13:21:49Z amerlyq: preferring to cripple themselves or reinvent a pitiful semblance of its workflow...
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2020-04-19T13:23:51Z Shinmera: productivity is hard to estimate, there's practically no trained lispers out there, and a never ending stream of java/c++/js/etc people, lisp has a bad rap, things are done for money first, etc.
2020-04-19T13:24:08Z Shinmera: I could name many reasons but they're all not very interesting and outside our control.
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2020-04-19T13:26:34Z MichaelRaskin: Building powerful abstractions means that you cannot randomly shuffle people between projects and give them standard-form specs for busywork, as there is more context to absorb before being able to do something useful
2020-04-19T13:30:28Z amerlyq: The problem I face regularly is how language itself influences the mind of people and creates their "boundaries" of thinking, which are obvious from their work. I come long way thinking how "prodigies" differ from regular people, and what exactly keeps me in awe looking at them. And you know, the conclusion I had -- is how much more complexity they keep to themselves over what is visible on the
2020-04-19T13:30:29Z baz76: Any less demanding books than SICP for getting into lisp or it's dialects? Fairly new to programming in general.
2020-04-19T13:30:31Z amerlyq: surface.
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2020-04-19T13:31:56Z phoe: baz76: sure
2020-04-19T13:32:00Z phoe: minion: tell baz76 about gentle
2020-04-19T13:32:00Z minion: baz76: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2020-04-19T13:32:07Z phoe: if you're new to programming altogether, gentle is the way to go
2020-04-19T13:32:26Z phoe: also, it will teach you the Common Lisp dialect of Lisp
2020-04-19T13:32:33Z phoe: SICP uses Scheme
2020-04-19T13:33:20Z baz76: Thanks. SICP is understandable but I just wanted a break for a day or two from interpreters to just make basic projects like you would in python to learn too. I'll be checking that out.
2020-04-19T13:33:55Z phoe: baz76: you could try Practical Common Lisp if you want small, concrete projects
2020-04-19T13:34:12Z baz76: I'll check that out too.
2020-04-19T13:34:18Z phoe: it's "practical" like that, as in, about 40% of the book is creating simple applications using standard CL functionality
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2020-04-19T13:34:43Z baz76: Sounds good, I was going to get burned out if all I did was SICP for weeks.
2020-04-19T13:38:31Z amerlyq: Last week I sat near my son, who wanted to create a little (Huge!) game and asked for some help after downloading UnrealEngine. And looking at its interface I felt the dread -- knowing how much of the meticulous project planning process required to convert the evolving idea of "game" or anything into precise actions done in the framework. It has inhumanly large gap in between what you think about and
2020-04-19T13:38:34Z amerlyq: what you actually must do to achieve it. I'm feeling too old for all this complexity and can only eat my hat looking at passionate youth able to do it without thinking, using only intuition.
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2020-04-19T13:42:49Z baz76: amerlyq game engines are pretty insane in terms of learning curve, might be easier to start with modding. Bethesda's tools are really easy to use and people have made standalone modifications off of it.
2020-04-19T13:47:34Z amerlyq: Yes, game engines are insane :) Still, what I realized by combining all my experiences, is that every game and every program has a "story" to convey to the player and interact with -- not the narrative or lore, or life of main character, but the "story" of design, art, struggles, pains and inspirations of the developer, his ups and downs, his life experiences. And developing it through exploratory
2020-04-19T13:47:37Z amerlyq: programming is also some kind of a "story" of human growth and dreams -- the "story" which developer lives in and interacts with. Yes, it seems stories are the greatest asset of humans to pass experiences around, even if not expressed in a conventional media.
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2020-04-19T13:53:01Z [rg]: Bike: did you implement the ken thompson construction in lisp?
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2020-04-19T13:53:23Z Bike: i've implemented regexes as DFAs, at least
2020-04-19T13:53:31Z Bike: i couldn't tell you if that's what he was doing
2020-04-19T13:54:29Z phoe: ;; offtopis: googling this landed me on http://www.kenthompsonconstruction.com and I was absolutely confused for a brief moment
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2020-04-19T13:56:16Z [rg]: he builds an nfa
2020-04-19T13:56:21Z amerlyq: So, the point is... Lisp allows you to write your "story" directly from any high or low level, following your inspiration, and then add more juicy details to whatever you wish to elaborate or generalize, immediately looking at results at hand. It's almost like writing prose in natural language or sculpting the figurine: flexible narrative but with semantic strictness of the relationships. It requires
2020-04-19T13:56:24Z amerlyq: the same story-writing abilities as demanded from game designers, movie producers or authors, but expressed directly in the language body itself instead of on separate piece of the paper with project plans and designs. So... that leads to the initial question -- why using anything beside the Lisp if any other language can't express the "story" even near as smoothly?
2020-04-19T13:56:52Z [rg]: he seems to not worry about that since he manages to check all possible states
2020-04-19T13:57:01Z [rg]: amerlyq: was that a response to me?
2020-04-19T13:57:23Z amerlyq: [rg]: nope, you connected in-between :)
2020-04-19T13:57:42Z Bike: i had something to interpret the nfa directly too, i think
2020-04-19T13:57:43Z [rg]: I asked a question like it a few days ago :P
2020-04-19T13:57:45Z Bike: so i could follow what was going on
2020-04-19T13:58:50Z [rg]: I get the feeling you could do this construction and create lisp output
2020-04-19T13:59:00Z [rg]: as lambdas or something
2020-04-19T13:59:06Z Bike: well that's what i did, yeah. i wasn't outputting 7094 assembly.
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2020-04-19T14:00:25Z [rg]: amerlyq: I suspect game devs don't like gc
2020-04-19T14:00:39Z [rg]: ;)
2020-04-19T14:00:43Z pjb: That's because they don't know real time gc…
2020-04-19T14:01:03Z [rg]: that's a thing?
2020-04-19T14:01:14Z amerlyq: pjb: +1, that's a thing?
2020-04-19T14:01:21Z pjb: Yes.
2020-04-19T14:01:30Z pjb: Also, parallel gc, incremental gc, etc…
2020-04-19T14:01:36Z [rg]: my prof always tells the mit story about the robot and baseball
2020-04-19T14:01:59Z [rg]: it basically missed the ball due to gc in lisp at the time
2020-04-19T14:02:09Z [rg]: interesting
2020-04-19T14:02:21Z Bike: [rg]: https://gist.github.com/Bike/44cb1285741356cbaae547f2d57b69d0 here's an example.
2020-04-19T14:02:30Z [rg]: can you swap the gc in lisp?
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2020-04-19T14:02:44Z Bike: the garbage collector is not part of the language definition at all.
2020-04-19T14:02:47Z [rg]: Bike: gee, thanks
2020-04-19T14:02:55Z [rg]: oh really
2020-04-19T14:03:12Z [rg]: so what does it look like if you don't have one
2020-04-19T14:03:17Z [rg]: does any lisp do this?
2020-04-19T14:03:27Z Bike: probably not. it would kind of suck.
2020-04-19T14:03:45Z Bike: presumably after a while your CONS calls would start signaling out of memory errors.
2020-04-19T14:04:06Z Bike: but what i mean is that the language defines no interface to the gc at all, let alone something as complex as using a different gc.
2020-04-19T14:05:02Z amerlyq: and I hoped pjb mentioning "real time gc" hinted on some already existing reimplementation for lisp...
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2020-04-19T14:06:37Z pjb: amerlyq: the hint is: take your favorite implementation, and put a f.....g real-time gc in it!
2020-04-19T14:07:02Z pjb: then you will be able to sell it to game programmers.
2020-04-19T14:07:06Z Bike: in this example a*|bcd means like a[bc]*d, by the way. i didn't bother writing a PCRE parser
2020-04-19T14:09:12Z amerlyq: pjb, so always, everything in the world is mostly DIY, isn't it? :D
2020-04-19T14:09:22Z pjb: Exactly.
2020-04-19T14:09:37Z pjb: Take inspiration from Elon Musk!
2020-04-19T14:10:10Z amerlyq: Great demotivating example
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2020-04-19T14:12:21Z pjb: He wanted to go to Mars, just millions of people. But HE took the steps to do it, instead if taking excuses (such as booo, the NASA doesn't want me as astronaut or such).  He made paypal to make money, he made tesla to make solar panes and batteries, he made the boring company to make a submartian base, he made SpaceX to make his own rockets, and so on!
2020-04-19T14:12:51Z pjb: s/just millions/just like millions/  s/instead if/instead of/
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2020-04-19T14:14:09Z [rg]: Bike: yeah that's fine, I'm personally only familiar with posix regex
2020-04-19T14:14:58Z amerlyq: I called the example "demotivating" considering the aspirations are greatly differing between the people. It very important how you define your immediate happiness, being it "I want to revel in exploratory programming" .vs. "I want to build and manage organization to achieve my goals". I'm not sure switching between these viewpoints without change of the heart will deem anything good.
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2020-04-19T14:15:42Z pjb: amerlyq: you can always try to make other people do your thing.  It usually costs a lot of money or a lot of blood…
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2020-04-19T14:16:34Z Bike: you should pretty much be able to figure out the dfa from the tagbody. it's start -a> 0, start -/> fail, 0 -> 2, 2 -d> success, 2 -/> 3, 3 -b> 0, 3 -c> 0, 3 -/> fail. 0/2 are redundant but oh well
2020-04-19T14:16:34Z pjb: programming, from newbie to boss: 10 print 'hello' -> Hey Mark, I want a program to great me!
2020-04-19T14:17:08Z MichaelRaskin: You often cannot make other people make your thing well, though
2020-04-19T14:17:27Z amerlyq: You often cannot make other people make even their thing well
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2020-04-19T14:18:37Z amerlyq: And it's a shame to acknowledge, but you often cannot make even your thing well
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2020-04-19T14:22:03Z amerlyq: pjb: yep, it sucks. So you are still forced to "build and manage organization" to earn a lot of money, to spent on somebody to do things you want, so you could "revel in exploratory programming". Kind of roundabout way to make your even life harder and less satisfactory, when your real goal and means to achieve the goal hinder each other.
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2020-04-19T14:26:02Z amerlyq: Whatever, I could sit and write gc instead of grumbling here -- such change of the pace is nice too.
2020-04-19T14:26:44Z pjb: amerlyq: you should also take into account the fact that anything to do, is to actually compete sexually.
2020-04-19T14:27:06Z pjb: Elon Musk included.  See how he names his things.
2020-04-19T14:29:07Z amerlyq: Isn't it another groundless conspiracy theory, because people think accidental facts are less probable than they actually are?
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2020-04-19T14:29:53Z baz76: pjb pursuit of status is only the result of sexual competition, it's why technological progress doesn't actually make people happier
2020-04-19T14:30:15Z baz76: but best to leave that discussion elsewhere i think
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2020-04-19T14:33:20Z amerlyq: Back on topic: Do you know about any "disillusionment" articles from someone who started big project in Lisp and then concluded Lisp is not fit for the work? Such experiences can provide invaluable insights in the actual limitations to overcome (or abandon Lisp too). Remember main aspiration from the above was "strive to write a story in the natural way... which can _accidentally_ become interactive
2020-04-19T14:33:23Z amerlyq: game".
2020-04-19T14:33:42Z amerlyq: * for the job
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2020-04-19T14:38:12Z pjb: amerlyq: there are not a lot of them.
2020-04-19T14:38:55Z shukryzablah: what's the irc channel for lisp in general
2020-04-19T14:38:58Z pjb: amerlyq: there's redit that has been rewritten from lisp, but the postmorterm wasn't that negative on lisp IMO.
2020-04-19T14:39:04Z pjb: shukryzablah: ##lisp
2020-04-19T14:39:13Z pjb: shukryzablah: have a look at http://cliki.net/IRC
2020-04-19T14:39:37Z shukryzablah: pjb: good stuff, thx
2020-04-19T14:39:55Z pjb: amerlyq: but other examples, such as ViaWeb only demonstrated the inadequacy of the other programming language…
2020-04-19T14:42:08Z selwyn: amerlyq: in this post https://markkarpov.com/post/lisp-and-haskell.html the author gives up lisp for haskell and details why, though it doesn't concern any project in particular
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2020-04-19T14:50:02Z amerlyq: selwyn: thanks for link, it seems the last postmortem I read about Lisp deficiencies is already 18 years old: "Postmortem: Naughty Dog's Jak and Daxter: the Precursor Legacy"
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2020-04-19T15:21:03Z lukego: amerlyq: I've had a few disillusionments with lisp/scheme. Sometimes it's just that Lisp is great for writing a prototype and once that works it makes sense to port to another language. other times it's that some specific requirement is harder with Lisp e.g. having a lightweight runtime system with low latency. *shrug* every language/system has its strengths and weaknesses
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2020-04-19T15:22:06Z phoe: amerlyq: this is only partially on topic, but I can give you a rant about how hardcore Lisp evangelists like Graham contribute to the bad vibe that Lisp-as-a-language has around the world.
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2020-04-19T15:23:29Z amerlyq: lukego: I talked above in lengths about "writing game story" in Lisp with focus on "human-oriented language". Of course, when you optimize for hardware, you usually pick something appropriate for hardware.
2020-04-19T15:23:55Z amerlyq: phoe: Oh, I'm hooked, please continue
2020-04-19T15:25:50Z phoe: amerlyq: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1579010993#1579010993
2020-04-19T15:28:44Z shka_: i never used lisp for commercial product, still worth knowing
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2020-04-19T15:38:24Z amerlyq: phoe: read it, interesting rumbling nevertheless
2020-04-19T15:38:51Z phoe: amerlyq: glad to hear that
2020-04-19T15:39:06Z Bike: i'll post this here too - i'm writing up a hypothetical language extension for concurrency, focusing on atomics since bordeaux threads already exists. i'd appreciate comments. https://gist.github.com/Bike/a89cbfda64ace273b12eed8675dda632
2020-04-19T15:39:30Z shka_: Bike: !!! What a splendid idea!
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2020-04-19T15:40:32Z shka_: I will read it carefully but the idea itself is exactly what I would want to see in the CL.
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2020-04-19T15:41:43Z amerlyq: By the way, considering you can dump/load lisp image with all the state preserved -- how much of it impossible for opengl? It seems on restore it must reinitialize GPU and send everything again to be working. What has such problems beside opengl?
2020-04-19T15:42:30Z phoe: amerlyq: all foreign libraries must be closed/reopened on image freezing/thawing. Of course, it's a non-issue if you don't use FFI.
2020-04-19T15:43:10Z phoe: But, basically, when you freeze your image, you need to close all stuff that is invalidated by the freeze/thaw operation. And then the thawed image must reopen/reallocate/redo/reeverything all of these.
2020-04-19T15:43:21Z phoe: Same thing as with e.g. files.
2020-04-19T15:45:13Z phoe: Bike: as for the last part, wouldn't it be more beneficial to state semantics for DEFINE-MODIFY-MACRO itself rather than list some examples of DEFINE-MODIFY-MACRO-created macros?
2020-04-19T15:46:29Z Bike: the d-m-m semantics are defined by the part of the description of "atomic" that says read-modify-write operations on an atomic place are atomic. logandf and stuff are there for machines where those particular r-m-w operations can be done with special machine support.
2020-04-19T15:46:32Z phoe: now that I think about it, it wouldn't really be easy - either DEFINE-MODIFY-MACRO would need to recognize which functions can be called wait-free or we would need to predefine some known subset of modify macros that *we* know to be wait-free
2020-04-19T15:46:37Z Bike: read modify write is definitely the part i'm least sure about, though.
2020-04-19T15:46:47Z phoe: yes, that's what I'm thinking
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2020-04-19T15:47:32Z phoe: but it's kind of weird for me to imagine #+amd64 (define-modify-macro logandf ...)
2020-04-19T15:47:58Z phoe: unless there's a slower fallback implementation for platforms that do not support fast wait-free logand
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2020-04-19T15:48:54Z phoe: I guess that everything can fall back on locks if it cannot be implemented better; it's a slow but safe fallback
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2020-04-19T15:55:03Z jmercouris: anyone know of something like Deploy, that also packages a CL program for various Linux distributions?
2020-04-19T15:55:03Z minion: jmercouris, memo from phoe: one curious option about plists for slots is that they are not really plists. :reader/:writer/:accessor can be specified multiple times and *ALL* occurrences of these are used for creating functions.
2020-04-19T15:55:04Z minion: jmercouris, memo from phoe: they certainly look like plists, and they pretty much may formally be plists, but they are parsed differently than via the standard GETF function that's usually used for dealing with plists.
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2020-04-19T15:55:34Z jmercouris: phoe: so in that case, it is definitely wise to make sure that :accessor is not duplicated!
2020-04-19T15:55:40Z Bike: actually, shower thought, the atomic rmw thing is bad since with the implicitly atomic places it means an implementation has to ensure (incf (svref ...)) is atomic even when the user doesn't care, which is probably frequent
2020-04-19T15:56:00Z jmercouris: in any case, you saw that in the end I went ahead and just extended the class without using moptilities to populate the slot with forms from the parent class
2020-04-19T15:56:19Z Bike: phoe: the intent is that logandf can be used so the implementation can _maybe_ do it wait-free. it's not required to do so, so it could fall back to a cas loop or something.
2020-04-19T15:56:33Z jmercouris: of if there is nothing like Deploy, anyone know a good way to get a program packaged for multiple Linux distributions with as little friction as possible?
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2020-04-19T15:57:53Z Bike: phoe: this is also the case since e.g. it's very unlikely an implementation could do logandf on bignums in any easy way
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2020-04-19T16:10:33Z phoe: minion: memo for jmercouris: flatpak, appimage.
2020-04-19T16:10:33Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-04-19T16:19:11Z Bike: actually if the implicit atomicity is unordered the rmw thing doesn't matter so much, i guess
2020-04-19T16:21:45Z jcowan: There was a Lisp machine (maybe not *the* Lisp Machine) that for a long time had no GC, because you typically crashed before running out of memory.
2020-04-19T16:23:38Z Bike: was it commonly mounted on missiles
2020-04-19T16:24:43Z jcowan: No, I just think this was before the idea that programs could be expected to run forever (i.e. servers)
2020-04-19T16:25:27Z jcowan: I've written many C programs that don't bother to properly free storage, because they are going to die long before they eat up even a measly megabyte.
2020-04-19T16:26:50Z jackdaniel: such approach pains my sense of aesthetics
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2020-04-19T16:37:04Z jcowan: The way I see it, in C the heap belongs to the programmer, not the implementation as in most languages (even C++). You get to use it any way you like, and malloc/free is just one approach, not necessarily optimal for your program.  You can call sbrk() yourself and get however much memory as a big honking chunk, and then do whatever you want.
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2020-04-19T16:37:16Z Josh_2: petition to change the name of anonymous functions to phantom functions
2020-04-19T16:37:23Z Josh_2: sounds much cooler
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2020-04-19T16:38:41Z jackdaniel: (λ () :lambda-is-so-much-much-cooler)
2020-04-19T16:39:00Z Josh_2: Yes
2020-04-19T16:39:04Z Josh_2: I agree
2020-04-19T16:39:13Z selwyn: i seem to remember an early build stage of clasp didn't have a GC, like 3 years ago (??)
2020-04-19T16:39:26Z jackdaniel: gc is a waste of time, isn't it? :)
2020-04-19T16:39:30Z phoe: Is it okay to (make-condition 'type-error) without passing any :DATUM or :EXPECTED-TYPE?
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2020-04-19T16:39:34Z Bike: just download more ram
2020-04-19T16:39:41Z jackdaniel: allocate
2020-04-19T16:39:47Z jackdaniel: (malloc :more-ram)
2020-04-19T16:40:12Z jackdaniel: (rammloc)
2020-04-19T16:40:23Z Bike: phoe: i don't think there's any guarantee that type-error-datum is bound
2020-04-19T16:40:44Z phoe: Bike: it's less about it being bound and more about that call being legal
2020-04-19T16:40:55Z phoe: I don't care if it's bound, I care if the above is defined
2020-04-19T16:41:10Z Bike: why would it not be?
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2020-04-19T16:41:39Z phoe: because the slots are not provided, and the spec page makes them seem mandatory
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2020-04-19T16:41:51Z Bike: huh, hang on, is it defined what happens if you try to read a condition's slot and it's not bound?
2020-04-19T16:41:52Z phoe: but I cannot find any passage that would state so
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2020-04-19T16:41:58Z phoe: no, it's not defined
2020-04-19T16:41:59Z Bike: "If no slot form is supplied, the contents of the slot is initialized in an implementation-dependent way. " well that sounds dumb
2020-04-19T16:42:05Z phoe: note that I am not reading the slot
2020-04-19T16:42:34Z phoe: I see, so the implementation defines how these are filled
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2020-04-19T16:43:32Z phoe: so it's legal to (make-condition 'type-error) and the implementation should fill the slots in
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2020-04-19T17:01:06Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Elon Musk did none of those things. The employees he had did.
2020-04-19T17:01:17Z Aurora_v_kosmose: @ discussion 3 hours ago
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2020-04-19T17:23:48Z TwoNotes: Is there a way to add terminal input editing (command recall, etc) to SBCL?
2020-04-19T17:23:57Z jackdaniel: TwoNotes: see linedit
2020-04-19T17:24:11Z jackdaniel: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/linedit/
2020-04-19T17:24:14Z phoe: TwoNotes: $ rlwrap sbcl
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2020-04-19T17:25:40Z TwoNotes: phoe Thanks!  Works great
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2020-04-19T17:45:55Z amerlyq: Aurora_v_kosmose: on surface you are right, but somebody must decide how the money are maid exactly and for what exactly they are paid. Therefore pjb is also not wrong attributing everything to Elon Musk.
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2020-04-19T17:56:04Z phoe: jeosol: nice
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2020-04-19T18:08:16Z Aurora_v_kosmose: amerlyq: Such enterprises also require initial funds most people don't have.
2020-04-19T18:08:51Z Aurora_v_kosmose: (Funds which he did have)
2020-04-19T18:09:16Z Bike: please stop talking about elon musk in the lisp channel.
2020-04-19T18:09:32Z Aurora_v_kosmose: k
2020-04-19T18:10:22Z Shinmera: Aurora_v_kosmose: amerlyq: this is not the channel for this.
2020-04-19T18:11:32Z amerlyq: Shinmera: sorry, I know, it was simply follow up
2020-04-19T18:11:57Z Aurora_v_kosmose: It was indeed continuation of earlier offtopic.
2020-04-19T18:12:33Z Shinmera: I don't care, just stop it.
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2020-04-19T18:13:00Z Aurora_v_kosmose: We kinda did on first notice.
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2020-04-19T18:20:01Z jeosol: phoe: thanks for the info from reddit
2020-04-19T18:21:12Z phoe: jeosol: no problemn
2020-04-19T18:21:41Z phoe: ANSI-TEST is a really nice thing
2020-04-19T18:22:10Z phoe: I've run like 8% of all condition-system-related tests so far and already found six bugs in my implementation
2020-04-19T18:23:38Z jeosol: phoe: was the rest of that for me, or a previous discussion here?
2020-04-19T18:24:03Z phoe: it's completely unrelated
2020-04-19T18:24:07Z jeosol: oh ok
2020-04-19T18:25:45Z jeosol: I noticed something in my recent updates of SBCL, not sure maybe it was always there. If I am coding and changing things back and forth, e.g., using aref for list, I get warnings, which is nice and appropriating linting of the codes
2020-04-19T18:26:40Z jeosol: Also using various suggestions you have guys have given in the past, code is more stable now, normally my longer runs (2-3 weeks) don't hiccup at all.
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2020-04-19T18:30:18Z jeosol: merci
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2020-04-19T19:24:38Z emys: hi, how can I find out the recipe used for a package?
2020-04-19T19:25:28Z Bike: What do you mean by recipe?
2020-04-19T19:26:39Z emys: let's say i am interested in how `python-isort' was built
2020-04-19T19:26:51Z emys: I would assume that there is a corresponding guix.scm to that package
2020-04-19T19:27:22Z Bike: Is that an emacs library? you may be in the wrong channel, this place is for Common Lisp.
2020-04-19T19:28:26Z emys: oh I  am sorry, you are right, wrong channel
2020-04-19T19:28:40Z Bike: no worries.
2020-04-19T19:29:28Z ayuce: i wonder which channel was targeted though.
2020-04-19T19:35:33Z Aurora_v_kosmose: #guix
2020-04-19T19:36:28Z Aurora_v_kosmose: It's a scheme-based (guile) reproducible source-based package manager.
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2020-04-19T19:39:54Z jackdaniel: uh oh, CL on iphone: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/g4dj1u/cl_repl_for_iphoneipad_beta_port_of_eql5android/, not that I have such device
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2020-04-19T19:45:42Z Aurora_v_kosmose: That's not a bad thing? Just likely to get intentionally broken by Apple.
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2020-04-19T20:22:55Z phoe: Aurora_v_kosmose: AFAIK as of late, compiler-shipping apps have been allowed on the App Store
2020-04-19T20:23:01Z phoe: this might mean that a CL repl might happen, too.
2020-04-19T20:23:50Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Huh, neat.
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2020-04-19T20:39:35Z phoe: hmmmm
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2020-04-19T21:09:11Z jcowan: Apple's enforcement policy is very inconsistent anyway.  It seems clear that you can download resources like new levels, and in an interpreted environment, code is just another resource.
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2020-04-19T21:29:08Z phoe: news: portable-condition-system now successfully passes the ANSI-TEST tests related to the condition system
2020-04-19T21:29:30Z phoe: may everyone who ever contributed to ANSI-TEST be happy and live a merry and peaceful life
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2020-04-19T21:37:50Z jackdaniel: phoe: I've linked a CL repl, so
2020-04-19T21:42:49Z samlamamma: phoe:Is the goal to merge it with SICL?
2020-04-19T21:43:00Z phoe: jackdaniel: linked? sorry, I'm tired and didn't understand what you mean
2020-04-19T21:43:05Z phoe: samlamamma: that is a possibility, yes
2020-04-19T21:43:43Z jackdaniel: phoe: I've pasted a link to eql5 for iphone/ipad which has cl repl, then you say that "cl repl might happen" on these platforms
2020-04-19T21:43:58Z jackdaniel: so I don't understand your comment
2020-04-19T21:44:04Z phoe: jackdaniel: wait, on the app store?
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2020-04-19T21:44:48Z jackdaniel urges phoe to click on the link before commenting. no, on the testflight
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2020-04-19T21:45:57Z phoe: what I meant is that there are applications already 100% published on the app store that implement language REPLs/compilers
2020-04-19T21:46:15Z phoe: s/might happen/might get 100% appstore-published/
2020-04-19T21:46:36Z jackdaniel: to my knowledge it is forbidden to publish there applications which produce native code
2020-04-19T21:47:35Z samlamamma: phoe: jackdaniel: Sorry for butting in: This whole conversation sounds like you two agreeing with each other
2020-04-19T21:47:37Z phoe: huh?... https://apps.apple.com/pl/app/cppcode-offline-c-c-ide-compiler/id936694712?l=pl
2020-04-19T21:47:52Z phoe: jackdaniel: it was the case for a long time
2020-04-19T21:48:01Z phoe: but recently Apple has changed its stance on compilers on App Store
2020-04-19T21:48:14Z jackdaniel: uhm
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2020-04-19T21:51:33Z phoe: so it might be possible to publish this officially
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2020-04-19T21:52:53Z phoe: I mean, toy lisp REPLs are already there - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/my-lisp/id1245341806 - dunno if they generate any native code there since it seems to be just an interpreter, but there are C++ compilers there that pretty surely compile down to assembly
2020-04-19T21:53:08Z phoe: so future looks bright for that project you linked :D
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2020-04-19T22:15:32Z nwoob: is there some article I can read that shows some basic understanding in how cl oop is different from that of languages like java,c#?
2020-04-19T22:15:53Z jackdaniel: minion: tell nwoob about pcl
2020-04-19T22:15:53Z minion: nwoob: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-04-19T22:19:14Z nwoob: I need to read the whole book to understand the answer to my question?
2020-04-19T22:21:11Z phoe: nwoob: tl;dr methods belong to generic functions, not to classes
2020-04-19T22:21:28Z phoe: and the object system is programmable, so you can define what it means to e.g. access a class slot
2020-04-19T22:21:29Z jackdaniel: you can skim the table of contents at least
2020-04-19T22:22:12Z jackdaniel: reading chapter 16. and 17. may be a good introduction
2020-04-19T22:22:43Z jackdaniel: (and you may treat examples as some esoteric pseudocode with parenthesis :)
2020-04-19T22:24:13Z phoe: also you can combine methods and their results in arbitrary ways thanks to CL method combinations
2020-04-19T22:25:07Z phoe: also you have basics aspect-oriented programming by default thanks to the default method combination and its :BEFORE/:AFTER/:AROUND methods
2020-04-19T22:25:12Z phoe: s/basics/basic
2020-04-19T22:26:13Z phoe: also CHANGE-CLASS is a thing, allowing you to change an object's class at runtime if you ever *really* need it
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2020-04-19T22:26:46Z jackdaniel: nwoob: if you want something more informal, here is a very memorable (to me) post by Erik Naggum: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3243735416407529@naggum.no.html
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2020-04-19T22:27:26Z phoe: also parts of the object system are themselves programmable, such as the generalized constructor duo called MAKE-INSTANCE + INITIALIZE-INSTANCE or the generalized printer called PRINT-OBJECT or even more details inside the so-called metaobjet protocol
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2020-04-19T22:28:21Z phoe: also multiple inheritance that's *pleasant* to use when compared to java/c# interfaces and c++ virtual inheritance
2020-04-19T22:28:52Z phoe: these are the most notable/useful differences that I can remember right now
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2020-04-19T22:28:59Z jackdaniel: I think it is hard to communicate when many people talk at the same time, so I'm going to sleep.
2020-04-19T22:29:09Z phoe: just two of us talking at once
2020-04-19T22:29:13Z nwoob: whaaat? change the class of object at runtime? first time heard of something like that... but i also have very less exp with programming so
2020-04-19T22:30:20Z nwoob: anyway I'll start with the book, first i'll complete CL:gentle inroduction
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2020-04-19T22:33:50Z jcowan: CL MI cleverly avoids the pitfalls of "mainstream" MI by not trying to do to much and by working with generic functions, the best thing about OO.
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2020-04-19T22:34:50Z phoe: MI?
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2020-04-19T22:35:07Z no-defun-allowed: multiple inheritance?
2020-04-19T22:35:12Z phoe: oh right, thanks
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2020-04-20T02:58:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-20T03:32:24Z shukryzablah: what's your timezone btw
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2020-04-20T03:33:19Z beach: shukryzablah: There are often a lot of people here.  If everyone starts discussing time zones, there will be a lot of noise.
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2020-04-20T03:45:19Z White_Flame: beach's timezone is obviously somewhere where it's morning now
2020-04-20T03:45:23Z White_Flame: </captain obvious>
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2020-04-20T03:53:21Z cortexman: https://www.flickr.com/photos/188105686@N08
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2020-04-20T03:54:13Z no-defun-allowed: What does that have to do with Common Lisp?
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2020-04-20T04:09:34Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I always ask people to describe what the link is about before I click on it.
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2020-04-20T04:54:08Z drmeister: My terrible Microsoft Excel based programming language powered by Common Lisp is complete.
2020-04-20T04:54:27Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/vfBM8nfU/image.png
2020-04-20T04:54:58Z drmeister: Why?  Because I need something synthetic organic chemists can work with.
2020-04-20T04:56:51Z drmeister: It predicts day by day how much of every reagent we use and every product we generate.  It can predict ordering and generation of waste.
2020-04-20T04:58:25Z loke: drmeister: How do you communicate with CL from Excel?
2020-04-20T04:59:21Z drmeister: My third try used the Common Lisp system :xlsx
2020-04-20T04:59:35Z drmeister: First csv, then lisp-xl and then xlsx.
2020-04-20T04:59:52Z drmeister: It works well with the small sheets I'm using.
2020-04-20T04:59:59Z loke: So it's non-interactive? You save the excel and have a Lisp program process it?
2020-04-20T05:00:13Z drmeister: I write out both csv files but recently I started writing excel xml files.
2020-04-20T05:00:23Z loke: You could have a live connection using OLE. :-0
2020-04-20T05:00:25Z drmeister: Yes.
2020-04-20T05:00:31Z drmeister: I'm on a mac
2020-04-20T05:00:39Z loke: I think that works on OSX too?
2020-04-20T05:00:55Z loke: ALthough... It'll be painful :-)
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2020-04-20T05:09:40Z drmeister: Not so interested in pain.
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2020-04-20T05:16:13Z loke: Wow. You can actually do HTTP rest calls from Excel. I had no idea
2020-04-20T05:16:14Z loke: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/48133663/sending-json-post-request-in-vba
2020-04-20T05:16:38Z loke: Not saying you should do it. I just started looking at what's available because I got inspired. :-)
2020-04-20T05:18:54Z pjb: There are crazy people still using Excel? After all the pain and death it caused in the world?
2020-04-20T05:20:01Z loke: pjb: I work with banks. I can give you the answer to your questions: Yes, very much yes. :-)
2020-04-20T05:21:41Z pjb: drmeister: https://rooseveltinstitute.org/researchers-finally-replicated-reinhart-rogoff-and-there-are-serious-problems/
2020-04-20T05:22:09Z pjb: drmeister: forbid your user to use Excel, pretty please! We don't want a chemical catastroph on Earth in addition to the pandemies!
2020-04-20T05:26:32Z loke: pjb: I'm reading the article. How can such a study even be accepted at all when they'r enot releaseing the data. It's insame.
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2020-04-20T05:28:42Z pjb: loke: it's not really the point, since  commercial products are also released without providing the data/sources/tests/whatever they used to create it.
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2020-04-20T05:30:40Z pjb: The point is if you base real-life decisions on Excel, you're screwed, and if you do that in a chemical plant, or a bank, you're screwing the fucking planet!
2020-04-20T05:31:21Z pjb: If Apple doesn't let nuclear power plants to use their toy computers, there's a reason!
2020-04-20T05:31:42Z pjb: (and the problem is not the hardware, and Microsoft is worse than Apple).
2020-04-20T05:41:27Z aeth: Yes, Excel is broken by design due to backwards compatibility. No, you can't get people to stop using Excel. And finally, it really should have been called "Excell". Pun opportunity missed.
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2020-04-20T05:44:06Z drmeister: What's nice about the xlsx system is I can color blocks of cells, change fonts and scale and still read everything into Common Lisp.
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2020-04-20T05:59:52Z drmeister: Aaaaand the result... If we recycle one particularly nasty solvent - we can reduce its use by 40x.
2020-04-20T06:00:36Z pjb: drmeister: how can you be sure: you used Excel!!!
2020-04-20T06:01:23Z drmeister: No - I use excel as a user interface.  It's a means to get the data into the 5500 lines of Common Lisp that run the simulation.
2020-04-20T06:01:38Z pjb: It's not reassuring at all.
2020-04-20T06:01:43Z pjb: GIGO
2020-04-20T06:02:05Z aeth: Excel as a data input method messed up some biology papers a few years ago iirc because it coerced some input into a different type (some gene names iirc)
2020-04-20T06:02:24Z drmeister: I'm using symbols and numbers.
2020-04-20T06:03:12Z phoe: morniiing
2020-04-20T06:03:32Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe
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2020-04-20T06:08:32Z phoe: Hey no-defun-allowed
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2020-04-20T08:48:55Z jmercouris: hello everyone
2020-04-20T08:48:55Z minion: jmercouris, memo from phoe: flatpak, appimage.
2020-04-20T08:49:31Z jmercouris: phoe: indeed, we have guix pack though, I'm looking to make debs, etc to get it mainlined into package managers
2020-04-20T08:49:58Z jmercouris: I've been thinking, is there a way to have an object of class X and turn it into an object of class Y?
2020-04-20T08:50:13Z phoe: jmercouris:
2020-04-20T08:50:15Z phoe: clhs change-class
2020-04-20T08:50:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_chg_cl.htm
2020-04-20T08:50:34Z phoe: don't abuse it though, it's easy to cause stuff to explode that way
2020-04-20T08:51:02Z jmercouris: OK :-)
2020-04-20T08:51:12Z jmercouris: I don't plan on using it, I was just thinking about it because of the conversation yesterday here
2020-04-20T08:51:49Z pjb: phoe: what would explode?
2020-04-20T08:52:08Z beach: pjb: A buggy implementation?
2020-04-20T08:52:15Z phoe: pjb: or buggy user code
2020-04-20T08:52:27Z no-defun-allowed: If you have a method on update-instance-for-new-class that causes an object to explode, it could well explode.
2020-04-20T08:52:29Z jmercouris: I can imagine many scenarios where it goes wrong
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2020-04-20T08:52:55Z no-defun-allowed: Pardon me, update-instance-for-different-class.
2020-04-20T08:53:22Z pjb: jmercouris: what's in clhs should work, whether it's + or change-class!
2020-04-20T08:53:46Z phoe: if an object is assumed to be of class A and someone changes its class to B where B is not a subclass of A, that's e.g. a way to defeat typechecks
2020-04-20T08:53:48Z jmercouris: Absolutely, I'm pretty sure phoe meant that misusing it can be dangerous, like GOTO
2020-04-20T08:54:16Z pjb: phoe: not at all!
2020-04-20T08:54:29Z phoe: first stuff an A into a A-typed slot, then change-class it into B
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2020-04-20T08:54:38Z aeth: pjb: yes, phoe is absolutely right
2020-04-20T08:54:52Z aeth: type checks are probably done when slots are modified.
2020-04-20T08:54:54Z pjb: (defclass a () ()) (defclass b () ()) (let ((o (make-instance 'a))) (check-type o a) (change-class o 'b) (check-type o b)) #| --> nil |#
2020-04-20T08:54:54Z phoe: unless the methods on u-i-f-d-c you've defined explicitly prevent such transformation, it is going to work
2020-04-20T08:55:00Z pjb: absolutely no problem.
2020-04-20T08:55:42Z jmercouris: OK, here is a scenario, someone writes a method expecting object A to have some properties
2020-04-20T08:55:54Z phoe: pjb: (defclass a () ()) (defclass foo ((a :initarg :a :accessor a :type a))) (defvar *foo* (make-instance 'foo :a (make-instance 'a)))
2020-04-20T08:55:55Z pjb: Or are you saying that if you call (+ 2 "foo") something will explode?
2020-04-20T08:55:57Z jmercouris: well, object A doesn't have those properties because it is a translated object
2020-04-20T08:56:10Z beach: jmercouris: You can't protect against programmers doing the wrong thing.
2020-04-20T08:56:11Z phoe: then you change-class the (a *foo*) into something that isn't an A
2020-04-20T08:56:20Z phoe: beach is correct
2020-04-20T08:56:32Z phoe: one cannot prevent the programmer from making bugs
2020-04-20T08:56:36Z jmercouris: people will find more creative and powerful ways to break your API :-D
2020-04-20T08:56:38Z pjb: phoe: then you have a bug in your update-instance-for-different-class method!
2020-04-20T08:56:49Z phoe: pjb: which method? I don't see any
2020-04-20T08:57:04Z pjb: phoe: my point!
2020-04-20T08:57:10Z phoe: yep, the lack of such method is the bug
2020-04-20T08:57:15Z pjb: phoe: you must find where your object is referenced with a type constraint and remove it from there!
2020-04-20T08:57:22Z pjb: phoe: ie YOU wrote the bug!
2020-04-20T08:57:35Z pjb: phoe: remember, YOU are the programmer, you are responsible for your code.
2020-04-20T08:57:47Z pjb: Also, just do not write any fucking type declarations!
2020-04-20T08:58:31Z aeth: phoe: Your example is almost correct, except :type doesn't have to be respected. I use a checked-type metaclass with :checked-type instead of :type here: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zr-utils/-/blob/c5a31d8bd536f827837ec7fafc0c1a95d0dcdc93/metaobject.lisp
2020-04-20T08:58:32Z jmercouris: could it be said that programmers are entomologists?
2020-04-20T08:58:39Z phoe: aeth: correct, that's what I meant
2020-04-20T08:58:41Z aeth: phoe: It will have the same weakness, though. It does type checks on slot setting
2020-04-20T08:58:54Z phoe: pjb: "just do not write any fucking type declarations" wtf
2020-04-20T08:58:57Z phoe: that's what type systems are for
2020-04-20T08:59:08Z jmercouris: I'm actually anti type checking
2020-04-20T08:59:15Z aeth: pjb: preconditions and postconditions are a pretty big part of programming.
2020-04-20T08:59:18Z aeth: Types or not.
2020-04-20T08:59:47Z jmercouris: type checking is too often touted as the magic bullet...
2020-04-20T08:59:47Z pjb: jmercouris: I embrace dynamic type checking!
2020-04-20T08:59:48Z aeth: I should probably change my checked-type into a general assert functionality before I finalize my utility library. I already implement it through ASSERT since CHECK-TYPE can't be used in the MOP
2020-04-20T09:00:08Z jmercouris: aeth: link to utility library?
2020-04-20T09:00:13Z pjb: phoe: for example, your bug may be in :type a instead of :type (or a b).
2020-04-20T09:00:16Z jmercouris: GitHub functional for everyone else?
2020-04-20T09:00:21Z aeth: jmercouris: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zr-utils
2020-04-20T09:00:38Z aeth: It's a bunch of things I spun out of my game engine
2020-04-20T09:00:45Z aeth: In varying degrees of completeness/polish
2020-04-20T09:00:47Z phoe: pjb: my point is that it's worth to mention that CHANGE-CLASS is a footgun.
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2020-04-20T09:01:04Z pjb: phoe: yeah, just like + or any other lisp operator!
2020-04-20T09:01:06Z ralt: good morning
2020-04-20T09:01:11Z phoe: no
2020-04-20T09:01:14Z jmercouris: aeth: as compared to serapeum and alexandria, where does it fall?
2020-04-20T09:01:14Z phoe: it allows for things that are impossible in other languages at the cost of getting errors that are impossible in other languages
2020-04-20T09:01:19Z aeth: jmercouris: in between
2020-04-20T09:01:23Z ralt: I have started using (wild-)inferred-package-system
2020-04-20T09:01:25Z phoe: + is available in other languages, CHANGE-CLASS is not
2020-04-20T09:01:29Z ralt: it's pretty good, really
2020-04-20T09:01:38Z pjb: phoe: oh! you want to write programs in other programming languages… I see…
2020-04-20T09:01:43Z jmercouris: phoe: in python change-class is available
2020-04-20T09:01:47Z jmercouris: phoe: not literally, but you know
2020-04-20T09:02:02Z aeth: jmercouris: it has alexandriaish stuff like do-hash-table and yet another hash table constructor macro (e.g. (hash :foo 42 :bar 43)) but it doesn't do radical things like #h(:foo 42 :bar 43)
2020-04-20T09:02:03Z pjb: phoe: but if you want to code in C, it's easier to use C, than to use a subset of CL…
2020-04-20T09:02:12Z aeth: jmercouris: on the other hand it has some fairly large macros
2020-04-20T09:02:17Z phoe: pjb: yes, the original comment was a pointer to the discussion where someone asked for a comparison between CLOS and object systems of other languages
2020-04-20T09:02:27Z phoe: so it's relevant to compare CLOS to other languages' object systems
2020-04-20T09:02:41Z phoe: also, C doesn't have a standard object system
2020-04-20T09:02:47Z jmercouris: aeth: that's nice! :-)
2020-04-20T09:02:54Z aeth: jmercouris: Nearly everything there uses DEFINE-FUNCTION, which is a modification of DEFUN that helps with type declarations, inlines, and other things. It doesn't quite do everything DEFUN does yet, though. e.g. &aux
2020-04-20T09:03:01Z ralt: there's just one thing I'm a bit on the fence about: if I want to use a dep, I _have to_ use e.g. (:import-from :cl-ppcre #:scan) and (scan), I can't just do (invented) (:import :cl-ppcre) (ppcre:scan). Anyone knows if I'm missing something, or if I should just declare :cl-ppcre in the :depends-on of my .asd file and move on?
2020-04-20T09:03:26Z jmercouris: aeth: I bet ambrevar will love your library and will want to use it in Next :-D
2020-04-20T09:03:39Z jmercouris: aeth: I'm sure you've seen all the type declarations and checking in our source...
2020-04-20T09:03:40Z phoe: ralt: I suggest an explicit :depends-on
2020-04-20T09:04:21Z aeth: jmercouris: It needs to be cleaned up in places. e.g. I think do-hash-table needs to be put in a BLOCK NIL (iirc the conversation the other day) so that you can break early from it, and a few other things.
2020-04-20T09:04:22Z phoe: there are multiple cases where package- and system-names are mismatched, or there are multiple packages in a system
2020-04-20T09:04:26Z jmercouris: aeth: especially will want to use define-function
2020-04-20T09:04:27Z phoe: e.g. system "lparallel"
2020-04-20T09:04:41Z phoe: which has a package lparallel.queue
2020-04-20T09:04:47Z aeth: jmercouris: yeah, my utility library is like 95% random niche things of varying degrees of usefulness... and define-function
2020-04-20T09:04:57Z phoe: but ASDF loading "lparallel.queue" is going to explode because such a system doesn't exist
2020-04-20T09:05:00Z aeth: the idea of define-function being that everything you can do with a DEFUN (except the name itself) is more concise
2020-04-20T09:05:12Z ralt: phoe: ah, yeah, that's a fair point
2020-04-20T09:06:17Z jmercouris: aeth: oh typed lists even!
2020-04-20T09:06:20Z ralt: either way, I really like with wild-package-inferred-system, it's a really nice step up
2020-04-20T09:06:22Z jmercouris: flashbacks of java
2020-04-20T09:06:40Z jmercouris: the only thing we don't have is a <?> operator syntax
2020-04-20T09:06:41Z phoe: I found it's much nicer to have explicit external dependencies listed in one place rather than implicitly define them all over the place
2020-04-20T09:07:03Z aeth: jmercouris: I mean, it's not surprisingly a big collection of everything that a game engine uses
2020-04-20T09:07:07Z ralt: my reasoning is that I'd rather have the dependencies defined as close to the code using them as possible
2020-04-20T09:07:21Z phoe: yep, so we're from two different camps :D
2020-04-20T09:07:23Z aeth: jmercouris: typed lists are mostly useless in CL (and they're slower!) but they're useful in a game engine because you only need to verify the contents once
2020-04-20T09:07:30Z ralt: ^^
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2020-04-20T09:09:21Z aeth: if I get a random NIL somewhere (and it used to happen all of the time) it's really hard to tell where it came from because it shows up in the game loop, not when it first appeared
2020-04-20T09:09:21Z jmercouris: is github working for anyone else?
2020-04-20T09:09:46Z jmercouris: aeth: were you trying to make a no-cons game engine?
2020-04-20T09:09:58Z phoe: jmercouris: github is up for me.
2020-04-20T09:10:04Z ralt: I wonder if there's a joke with cons-less...
2020-04-20T09:10:18Z aeth: jmercouris: sort of... the engine itself doesn't cons during the game loop
2020-04-20T09:10:29Z aeth: jmercouris: in practice, anything that uses the engine conses a bit.
2020-04-20T09:10:31Z jmercouris: OK, I'm going to restart my network
2020-04-20T09:10:39Z aeth: s/during the game loop/during the game loop in SBCL/
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2020-04-20T09:11:39Z aeth: I don't think any other CL implementation provides enough information to tell if something is consing during a specific part of the program. If it does, it's nowhere near as straightforward as SBCL... and it probably does cons in the other CLs because SBCL is built more around that sort of thing.
2020-04-20T09:12:54Z aeth: e.g. SBCL will warn you if (declare (dynamic-extent foo)) fails, and will give you a note if a double-float conses if you're at (speed 3)
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2020-04-20T09:17:34Z aeth: jmercouris: anyway, I wouldn't use zr-utils yet because there are a few rough edges so it doesn't quite represent a stable API yet, which is absolutely a deal breaker for a util library
2020-04-20T09:17:49Z aeth: I was tempted to split it into /stable and /unstable when I spun it off
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2020-04-20T09:20:50Z aeth: In particular, in array.lisp, I need to support offsets, either directly or with two new sets of functions/macros. I also need to rename with-2D-array-accessors because it supports 1D and 2D arrays. Also, read.lisp is entirely work-in-progress and util.lisp has a few incomplete things like with-bindings, which also needs elisp written so it's indented properly.
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2020-04-20T09:26:19Z aeth: data-structures.lisp needs some cleanup for readability and I probably want to give the typed lists an optional dependency on trivial-extensible-sequences for an API that's nicer, but slower and less portable. (I suppose I could also implement a sequence API for queues as well.)
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2020-04-20T10:31:33Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I'm having some issues with deploy, can you help?
2020-04-20T10:33:30Z phoe: jmercouris: what sorta issues
2020-04-20T10:33:45Z jmercouris: phoe: you have macOS right?
2020-04-20T10:33:49Z phoe: jmercouris: nope
2020-04-20T10:33:52Z jmercouris: ah
2020-04-20T10:33:55Z jmercouris: OK well
2020-04-20T10:34:01Z jmercouris: it copies the shared libraries into the app bundle
2020-04-20T10:34:06Z jmercouris: that seems to work
2020-04-20T10:34:19Z jmercouris: however when my program launches, it looks for glib, but doesnt find it
2020-04-20T10:34:23Z jmercouris: despite it existing in the app bundle
2020-04-20T10:34:48Z jmercouris: I'll paste one second
2020-04-20T10:35:11Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/0B0JCE0
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2020-04-20T10:36:50Z jmercouris: run-initializers is not a useful hint...
2020-04-20T10:37:01Z jmercouris: it just funcalls a list of functions 11
2020-04-20T10:37:07Z phoe: I don't think a hint is needed
2020-04-20T10:37:18Z phoe: the Lisp image cannot find the shared library where it expects to find them
2020-04-20T10:37:26Z jmercouris: I thought Deploy was supposed to handle this
2020-04-20T10:37:37Z phoe: which means in #p"../Resources/"
2020-04-20T10:37:53Z phoe: yes, from a brief glance this looks like a deploy issue
2020-04-20T10:38:36Z jmercouris: I demand my money back :-D
2020-04-20T10:39:27Z phoe: https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy/blob/master/osx.lisp#L19-L23 shows where ASDF is supposed to output the files during the deploy operation
2020-04-20T10:39:48Z jmercouris: it appears correct
2020-04-20T10:39:52Z jmercouris: they are in resources
2020-04-20T10:40:16Z phoe: yes - but the question is whose responsibility it is to inform the Lisp image that it is supposed to look for these dylibs there
2020-04-20T10:40:22Z phoe: is OSX supposed to do that
2020-04-20T10:40:25Z jmercouris: 2
2020-04-20T10:40:37Z jmercouris: so technically yes, but in this case no
2020-04-20T10:40:42Z phoe: or is it the program's responsibility to find these dylibs
2020-04-20T10:40:45Z jmercouris: that
2020-04-20T10:40:52Z jmercouris: normally you will use otool to set the rpath
2020-04-20T10:41:10Z jmercouris: but in the case of Lisp, since it is done at runtime
2020-04-20T10:41:15Z jmercouris: Lisp must do it itself
2020-04-20T10:41:28Z jmercouris: I thought deploy would edit the CFFI search paths
2020-04-20T10:41:43Z phoe: the latter means that deploy process isn't complete, and I guess that CFFI should be instructed to look for foreign libraries in #p"../Resources/" too
2020-04-20T10:41:46Z jmercouris: (pushnew "/opt/local/lib/" cffi:*foreign-library-directories* :test #'equal)
2020-04-20T10:41:52Z jmercouris: something like that but with the resources path
2020-04-20T10:42:46Z jmercouris: phoe: but does Lisp know its path on disk? can you push a relative path like taht?
2020-04-20T10:42:48Z jmercouris: s/taht/that
2020-04-20T10:42:56Z jmercouris: I can check arg0... of course
2020-04-20T10:43:13Z phoe: jmercouris: that's a big question! a relative path would be the best
2020-04-20T10:43:32Z phoe: but if CFFI doesn't handle those, then an absolute path will need to be constructed
2020-04-20T10:43:41Z jmercouris: son of a potato
2020-04-20T10:44:11Z jmercouris: I will wait for Shinmera to chime and say if it is supposed to be done by deploy or myself
2020-04-20T10:44:19Z jmercouris: I can do it si es necessario
2020-04-20T10:44:21Z phoe: or, you could try executing (pushnew #p"../Resources" cffi:*foreign-library-directories* :test #'equal) before foreign libs are loaded
2020-04-20T10:44:29Z phoe: to see it this perhaps fixes the issue
2020-04-20T10:44:36Z jmercouris: it's worth a potato try
2020-04-20T10:44:40Z jmercouris: let me potato try
2020-04-20T10:44:47Z phoe: I guess so, yes
2020-04-20T10:44:53Z jmercouris: ah, no wait, I don't think I can do it
2020-04-20T10:44:58Z phoe slices the potatoes, makes fries
2020-04-20T10:44:59Z jmercouris: my dependencies are potato loading them
2020-04-20T10:45:13Z jmercouris: I can make a new system that does that and depend on that
2020-04-20T10:45:14Z jmercouris: I guess
2020-04-20T10:45:22Z jmercouris: though is the order of depends-on guaranteed?
2020-04-20T10:45:25Z jmercouris: probably not
2020-04-20T10:45:27Z phoe: jmercouris: or just stuff that into deploy hooks
2020-04-20T10:45:35Z jmercouris: phoe: how would I do that?
2020-04-20T10:45:46Z phoe: jmercouris: DEFINE-HOOK, see deploy manual
2020-04-20T10:45:54Z jmercouris: 1
2020-04-20T10:46:25Z phoe: the only thing you need to take care of is https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy/issues/10
2020-04-20T10:46:35Z phoe: deploy doesn't yet allow the programmer to order the hooks
2020-04-20T10:46:57Z phoe: so if a hook tries to load GLIB before your hook tells CFFI where to look for GLIB, you are toast
2020-04-20T10:47:08Z jmercouris: I don't think that'll occur
2020-04-20T10:47:10Z jmercouris: i'm the only user
2020-04-20T10:47:30Z jmercouris: the define-hook can go right into my asd?
2020-04-20T10:47:52Z phoe: jmercouris: kinda shouldn't, it should go into code
2020-04-20T10:48:01Z jmercouris: OK
2020-04-20T10:48:08Z jmercouris: I'll put it in my package lisp
2020-04-20T10:49:32Z jmercouris: (deploy:define-hook :boot cffi-dir (pushnew #p"../Resources" cffi:*foreign-library-directories* :test #'equal))
2020-04-20T10:49:35Z jmercouris: does that look OK?
2020-04-20T10:49:53Z Shinmera: it already does that.
2020-04-20T10:50:03Z jmercouris: Oh
2020-04-20T10:50:09Z jmercouris: Shinmera: tips on debugging then?
2020-04-20T10:50:16Z Shinmera: and my guess is that it /does/ find glib, but cannot load it. cffi cannot distinguish those cases, so it just says it doesn't exist.
2020-04-20T10:50:27Z Shinmera: and it probably can't load it because of missing or broken transitive dependencies.
2020-04-20T10:50:32Z jmercouris: I was about to ask about that
2020-04-20T10:50:33Z Shinmera: which is something deploy cannot handle.
2020-04-20T10:50:41Z jmercouris: so you mean the libraries that glib itself depends on
2020-04-20T10:50:45Z phoe: Shinmera: ooh, I misunderstood the defmethod asdf:output-files then
2020-04-20T10:50:45Z jmercouris: it mayhaps cannot load them?
2020-04-20T10:50:45Z Shinmera: yes
2020-04-20T10:50:57Z Shinmera: anyway, I'm off.
2020-04-20T10:51:01Z jmercouris: oh
2020-04-20T10:51:28Z phoe: that's good info
2020-04-20T10:51:41Z jmercouris: yes
2020-04-20T10:51:43Z jmercouris: so let me show you something
2020-04-20T10:51:44Z jmercouris: one second
2020-04-20T10:51:49Z phoe: jmercouris: try scanning the dependencies of the glib library and check if they are all included in the resource dir
2020-04-20T10:51:56Z jmercouris: they are not
2020-04-20T10:51:59Z phoe: if not, you'll need to manually copy them
2020-04-20T10:52:02Z jmercouris: I've already one an otool -l
2020-04-20T10:52:04Z phoe: ooooh, then that's a good hint
2020-04-20T10:52:13Z jmercouris: that was one of my first thoughts
2020-04-20T10:52:16Z jmercouris: but the paths they list ARE valid
2020-04-20T10:52:20Z jmercouris: one second
2020-04-20T10:53:01Z jmercouris: maybe it is a permissions issue
2020-04-20T10:54:28Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/1W1CAP0
2020-04-20T10:54:33Z jmercouris: those all exist though
2020-04-20T10:55:09Z jmercouris: ls -la /opt/local/lib/libiconv.2.dylib -> -rwxr-xr-x   1 root           admin     1053108 2019-10-28  2019 /opt/local/lib/libiconv.2.dylib
2020-04-20T10:56:04Z phoe: they aren't copied to your app directory though
2020-04-20T10:56:11Z jmercouris: am I going to have to copy all libraries recursively? is there not a tool for this
2020-04-20T10:56:19Z phoe: they won't work for someone who doesn't have a /opt/local/lib/libiconv.2.dylib
2020-04-20T10:56:25Z jmercouris: I have it though
2020-04-20T10:56:30Z jmercouris: it is on my machine still
2020-04-20T10:56:39Z phoe: yes, so that's another issue
2020-04-20T10:56:56Z jmercouris: yeah, I know it will be a problem, but I want to get at least it to run here :-D
2020-04-20T10:57:48Z jmercouris: it's OK, thank you for your help with this
2020-04-20T10:57:50Z jmercouris: I'll get back to it later
2020-04-20T10:57:56Z jmercouris: I need a break from banging my head against a wall :-)
2020-04-20T10:58:06Z phoe: I wonder if you can try loading that library using some other tool that will tell you *why* glib cannot be loaded
2020-04-20T10:58:25Z jmercouris: that's a good question
2020-04-20T10:58:34Z jmercouris: you know, maybe I'll try with one dependency at a time
2020-04-20T10:58:38Z phoe: I have no idea what such a tool might be though, that's already OSX territory and not really lisp stuff
2020-04-20T10:58:40Z jmercouris: and debug the dependencies themselves
2020-04-20T10:58:47Z phoe: yep, sounds like an idea
2020-04-20T10:59:11Z jmercouris: I might write such a tool in Lisp
2020-04-20T10:59:14Z jmercouris: I've never seen it
2020-04-20T11:00:52Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-04-20T11:06:27Z phoe: there's no one to stop you then
2020-04-20T11:07:39Z jmercouris: 1
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2020-04-20T11:08:19Z phoe: what does 1 mean other than it is an integer
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2020-04-20T11:10:24Z jmercouris: 1 = yes, 2 = no
2020-04-20T11:10:27Z jmercouris: it's from age of empires, sorry
2020-04-20T11:12:20Z jmercouris: https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Taunts
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2020-04-20T11:13:00Z flip214: jmercouris: "man ld.so" gives you "LD_DEBUG=files command" (or =all)
2020-04-20T11:13:20Z flip214: to find out which dependencies get solved where/how
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2020-04-20T12:08:37Z Bike: phoe: can i ask why you closed that sicl issue?
2020-04-20T12:12:27Z phoe: Bike: I'm about to open one that suggests that my condition system could be plugged into SICL
2020-04-20T12:12:31Z Bike: ah.
2020-04-20T12:12:40Z phoe: I'm just finishing testing this thing and making last polishes
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2020-04-20T12:19:00Z Bike: beach may have other ideas for the debugger part, though i'm sure your code is an improvement on what's there right now
2020-04-20T12:19:11Z Bike: plus a real debugger ought to be able to do backtrace stuff that can't be done portably
2020-04-20T12:19:50Z phoe: Bike: one can extend my debugger with a command that does (ql:quickload :dissect)
2020-04-20T12:19:56Z phoe: or (sicl-internals:backtrace)
2020-04-20T12:19:59Z phoe: or whatever
2020-04-20T12:20:01Z Bike: sure.
2020-04-20T12:20:17Z phoe: but yes, the debugger can be removed and replaced with any other function
2020-04-20T12:22:08Z beach: phoe: I think that using "debugger" for something that allows the programmer to stare at a backtrace when things go wrong, is a gross misrepresentation.
2020-04-20T12:22:35Z phoe: beach: sure
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2020-04-20T12:23:48Z phoe: anyway, I could move my debugger to a fully separate ASDF system since it's currently modular enough
2020-04-20T12:24:07Z phoe: it's not much of an issue.
2020-04-20T12:24:22Z phoe: for now, lemme clean this thing up a bit more
2020-04-20T12:24:47Z beach: I haven't looked at what you are doing on the debugger part, so I currently have no opinion about it.
2020-04-20T12:25:03Z phoe: sure, no rush about it
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2020-04-20T12:35:42Z Josh_2: Afternoon all
2020-04-20T12:36:10Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-04-20T12:36:18Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
2020-04-20T12:37:13Z Josh_2: Is there a way I can use the function (read-byte ..) in place of (fast-read-byte.. )?
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2020-04-20T12:37:42Z phoe: Josh_2: you mean fast-io?
2020-04-20T12:37:51Z phoe: why use standard read-byte with it?
2020-04-20T12:37:53Z Josh_2: fast-io provides fast-read-byte
2020-04-20T12:38:01Z Josh_2: I don't want to actually use read-byte
2020-04-20T12:38:26Z phoe: the easy answer is "no, you can't use read-byte with fast-io buffers"
2020-04-20T12:39:29Z Josh_2: I don't want to use read-byte, just sorta overwrite the default functionality of read-byte in a specific circumstance, sorta like you can do (let ((x 1))(let ((x 2)) (print x))) -> 2
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2020-04-20T12:40:08Z phoe: you can do that only in lexical scope by doing (flet ((cl:read-byte ...)) ...)
2020-04-20T12:40:10Z pjb: Josh_2: override, for what body of code?
2020-04-20T12:40:19Z pjb: phoe: no, you cannot.
2020-04-20T12:40:25Z phoe: wait, can't you?
2020-04-20T12:40:31Z beach: Nope.
2020-04-20T12:40:37Z Josh_2: I have tried that phoe with something else
2020-04-20T12:40:40Z Josh_2: doesn't work
2020-04-20T12:40:56Z beach: Josh_2: That's not the point.  The point is whether it is allowed by the standard.
2020-04-20T12:40:59Z phoe: oh wait.
2020-04-20T12:41:14Z phoe: yes, that's forbidden; binding these symbols as variables is OK, as functions - not OK
2020-04-20T12:41:19Z phoe: so, nope, you can't do that in general.
2020-04-20T12:41:35Z pjb: phoe: 11.1.2.1.2
2020-04-20T12:42:20Z phoe: oh right
2020-04-20T12:42:35Z phoe: "If an external symbol of the COMMON-LISP package is **NOT** defined as a standardized function, macro, or special operator..."
2020-04-20T12:42:38Z phoe: (emphasis mine)
2020-04-20T12:43:54Z jcowan: Does anyone know why?  LISP-SYMBOL-REDEFINITION-AGAIN says not, and it makes little sense to me.
2020-04-20T12:44:02Z jcowan: s/not/it does not
2020-04-20T12:45:08Z pjb: why what?
2020-04-20T12:45:36Z jcowan: why CL: function symbols can't be lexically bound with flet or labels.
2020-04-20T12:45:52Z pjb: Because implementations are allowed to open-code all CL functions.
2020-04-20T12:45:57Z phoe: proposal, chapter 3
2020-04-20T12:46:01Z phoe: it's there
2020-04-20T12:46:06Z pjb: open-code ~= inline.
2020-04-20T12:46:19Z phoe: it's allowed to lexically bind it as a function only if it isn't globally bound as fun/mac/specop
2020-04-20T12:46:45Z pjb: jcowan: there's also the point that internally, CL functions can call other functions than CL functions to perform their job.
2020-04-20T12:46:47Z jcowan: phoe: I understand the rule but not the reasoning
2020-04-20T12:46:55Z Bike: cos it messes with macro hygeine.
2020-04-20T12:47:06Z jcowan: Bike: how is that?
2020-04-20T12:47:12Z pjb: jcowan: ie. even if you overriden a function such as CL:READ-CHAR, it could have no effect on say, CL:READ-LINE.
2020-04-20T12:47:40Z phoe: if you rebound it lexically then it would have no effect either though
2020-04-20T12:47:46Z Bike: you lexically bind CAR and now a million standard macros will do weird unpredictable things.
2020-04-20T12:47:54Z pjb: jcowan: the rule is also tere to protect the implementation, so you may not modify a CL function that is used by other CL functions.
2020-04-20T12:48:06Z Bike: i thought this was like, one of the main problems that led to scheme's macro system.
2020-04-20T12:48:29Z jcowan: pjb: That doesn't make sense: the definition of cl:read-line is not within some lexical scope of your program.
2020-04-20T12:48:58Z pjb: jcowan: indeed, global functions are not in a LEXICAL scope, but in a DYNAMIC scope.
2020-04-20T12:49:07Z pjb: this is not scheme…
2020-04-20T12:49:43Z jcowan: Bike: You are right, but in that case, lexically binding cl:car or cl:otherwise with let shouldn't be allowed either
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2020-04-20T12:50:01Z phoe: they aren't bound as variables though
2020-04-20T12:50:18Z Bike: yeah i don't see what you're getting at.
2020-04-20T12:50:21Z phoe: not by the standard
2020-04-20T12:50:34Z phoe: a macro cannot portably depend on the value of cl:car as a variable
2020-04-20T12:50:49Z jcowan: phoe: Ah.
2020-04-20T12:50:51Z pjb: jcowan: both are allowed, because 1- they are lexical, 2- a variable binding doesn't change the meaning of the code, weither there's open-coding or not of cl:car.
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2020-04-20T13:27:30Z shka_: hello
2020-04-20T13:27:40Z shka_: so i renamed cl-data-frames to vellum
2020-04-20T13:27:49Z shka_: which is unique, i hope :P
2020-04-20T13:29:43Z phoe: vellum doesn't need to be unique
2020-04-20T13:29:51Z phoe: #:vellum382 should, however
2020-04-20T13:30:55Z shka_: must, even
2020-04-20T13:33:23Z flip214: phoe: it's hard to get #\# and #\: in a domain name, though
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2020-04-20T14:07:24Z shukryzablah: shka_: where can i get it
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2020-04-20T14:10:19Z edgar-rft: let's make Common Lisp more unique by renaming it to (gensym)
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2020-04-20T14:27:12Z phoe: let's make it special
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2020-04-20T14:42:24Z phoe: A handler function cannot "see" handlers that were established in the same cluster and handlers that were established inside the scope of its binding form
2020-04-20T14:42:29Z phoe: What about restarts?
2020-04-20T14:42:47Z Bike: you want to invoke a restart from a restart?
2020-04-20T14:43:20Z phoe: yes
2020-04-20T14:43:34Z phoe: the question is whether all restarts are visible
2020-04-20T14:43:40Z phoe: or only the one bound "earlier"
2020-04-20T14:43:50Z phoe: so whether restarts behave the same as handlers
2020-04-20T14:43:58Z Bike: "If invoke-restart is done on that restart, the function which resulted from evaluating function is called, in the dynamic environment of the invoke-restart, with the arguments given to invoke-restart." obviously the dynamic environment of the invoke-restart includes the restart being invoked and the rest of the restarts in the binding.
2020-04-20T14:44:07Z Bike: that's restart-bind, though.
2020-04-20T14:44:07Z phoe: OK, I see
2020-04-20T14:44:15Z phoe: restart-case is different because it transfers control
2020-04-20T14:44:24Z Bike: right.
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2020-04-20T14:44:28Z phoe: thanks!
2020-04-20T14:46:12Z Bike: i guess restart-bind is pretty much a dynamic flet, huh?
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2020-04-20T14:46:46Z jmercouris: let's say I'm in package potato
2020-04-20T14:46:49Z jmercouris: and I execute LOAD
2020-04-20T14:46:57Z jmercouris: will whatever I LOAD be treated as if it is in potato?
2020-04-20T14:47:12Z Bike: yes, unless of course the code changes *package*.
2020-04-20T14:47:38Z jmercouris: I see
2020-04-20T14:48:19Z jmercouris: and how can I go about loading it and asking it to pretend it is in a different package?
2020-04-20T14:48:29Z jmercouris: WITHOUT the code having to do that itself
2020-04-20T14:48:31Z Bike: (let ((*package* whatever)) (load ...))
2020-04-20T14:48:41Z jmercouris: ah
2020-04-20T14:48:42Z Bike: or just (in-package whatever) (load ...)
2020-04-20T14:48:44Z jmercouris: it is that simple huh
2020-04-20T14:48:49Z Bike: *package* is just a variable. it's not magic or anything.
2020-04-20T14:48:58Z jmercouris: I wonder why it did not work for that user...
2020-04-20T14:49:07Z beach: jmercouris: Your code *should* start with an (in-package ..) form though.
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2020-04-20T14:49:17Z jmercouris: it definitely should
2020-04-20T14:49:21Z Bike: although note that load rebinds *package*, so any changes to *package* by the code will be undone once load returns.
2020-04-20T14:49:22Z jmercouris: I can't expect new users to do that though
2020-04-20T14:49:31Z jmercouris: I'm trying to make configuration as simple as possible for them
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2020-04-20T14:49:56Z jmercouris: Bike: I think that is OK
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2020-04-20T14:50:26Z beach: jmercouris: You expect your uses to program in Common Lisp, but you can't expect them to type tine (in-package...) form?
2020-04-20T14:50:37Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-04-20T14:50:47Z jmercouris: I give them training wheels
2020-04-20T14:51:01Z jmercouris: all they need to know to start configuring Next is (define-configuration xyz)
2020-04-20T14:51:05Z jmercouris: they shouldn't care about the details
2020-04-20T14:51:11Z jmercouris: as they get more invested, they can start learning Common Lisp
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2020-04-20T14:52:12Z beach: I see.
2020-04-20T14:52:34Z phoe: just load from inside NEXT-USER package
2020-04-20T14:52:54Z jmercouris: phoe even knew what I was trying to do...
2020-04-20T14:52:58Z jmercouris thinks phoe is a mind reader
2020-04-20T14:53:09Z phoe: define a NEXT-USER package that has all the DEFINE-CONFIGURATION macros and such
2020-04-20T14:53:12Z phoe: and load from there
2020-04-20T14:53:34Z jmercouris: we do: (uiop:define-package next-user (:use :common-lisp :trivia :next) (:import-from #:keymap #:define-key #:define-scheme)
2020-04-20T14:53:45Z jmercouris: they make their own init.lisp
2020-04-20T14:53:53Z jmercouris: they would still have to put an (in-packge :next-user) declaration at the top
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2020-04-20T14:55:11Z phoe: no
2020-04-20T14:55:23Z phoe: (let ((*package* (find-package :next-user))) (load ...))
2020-04-20T14:55:43Z jmercouris: right, I'll do that now
2020-04-20T14:55:54Z phoe: look ma, no NEXT-PACKAGE
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2020-04-20T15:00:58Z Josh_2: I'm getting some very strange behaviour from one of my functions, here you can see the effect https://imgur.com/wgKlhsg.png calling the same function twice but getting an 8000x speed decrease in one instance..
2020-04-20T15:01:50Z Josh_2: I've seen as bad as 25 seconds for 1 call
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2020-04-20T15:02:32Z Bike: you're going to have to tell us about the code if you want advice, you realize.
2020-04-20T15:02:40Z Josh_2: Yes
2020-04-20T15:02:46Z Josh_2: I'm doing that now, gimme a minute
2020-04-20T15:02:49Z Bike: oh ok.
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2020-04-20T15:08:35Z Josh_2: I know the cause of the problem but I don't understand why it is happening. Basically I have a function called "download-encrypted-packet" which reads from a byte array from a stream and then decrypts it, which causes no problem. However I have a parser which only accepts a stream as an input so I am attempting to use flexi-streams:make-in-memory-input-stream basically create a stream wrapper around the downloaded and decrypted byte
2020-04-20T15:08:35Z Josh_2: array. Now when I use my parser on the new stream, my function for reading bytes from the stream which is a simple wrapper around read-byte gets all jammed up, as you can see from the imgur link I just posted. The functions are in this paste https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1764#1764
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2020-04-20T15:09:05Z didi: Hey! I solved my problem with concatenated streams. Instead of (make-concatenated-stream stream concatenated-stream) I (apply #'make-concatenated-stream stream (concatenated-stream-streams concatenated-stream)). Cool!
2020-04-20T15:09:33Z Josh_2: I don't understand why sometimes the stream is read extremely fast, and the next it'll take half a second per non-block-read-byte call...
2020-04-20T15:09:53Z Josh_2: There is always something to read on the flexi stream so why it would get jammed up is beyond me
2020-04-20T15:10:09Z jmercouris: Josh_2: does it get jammed when you only read and do not decrypt?
2020-04-20T15:10:13Z Josh_2: No
2020-04-20T15:10:20Z didi: All hail `concatenated-stream-stream'!
2020-04-20T15:10:21Z jmercouris: Josh_2: then your answer is in the decryption
2020-04-20T15:10:30Z Josh_2: jmercouris: I don't think you are understanding
2020-04-20T15:10:35Z Josh_2: Let me explain better
2020-04-20T15:10:37Z jmercouris: Josh_2: OK
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2020-04-20T15:13:48Z Josh_2: So I am sending for example 200 bytes which is an encrypted message over a socket using usocket. This arrives on the receiving side very fast, it is downloaded into an array and decrypted, this is not slow at all, I have tested this as an independent system. Now I am using the function (flexi-stream:make-memory-input-stream decrypted-byte-array) to create a NEW stream which is then put into the parser. It is only when the parser has to
2020-04-20T15:13:48Z Josh_2: work with the flexi-stream instead of the socket stream that is gets 'bound up'.
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2020-04-20T15:14:21Z Josh_2: But read-byte is the function that is supposed to be used on flexi-stream:memory-input-stream
2020-04-20T15:14:43Z Josh_2: That's why I posted my 3 wrapper functions, which are built on top of (listen.. ) and (read-byte )
2020-04-20T15:15:18Z jmercouris: so the parser works slowly with in memory streams, but not slowly with socket streams?
2020-04-20T15:15:22Z jmercouris: s the parser your own code?
2020-04-20T15:15:23Z Josh_2: Yes
2020-04-20T15:15:26Z Josh_2: the parser is my own code yes
2020-04-20T15:15:37Z jmercouris: does your parser wait for a token or something to proceed causing potential lock?
2020-04-20T15:15:53Z Josh_2: It's the function non-block-read-byte that gets bound up, that is in the plaster link
2020-04-20T15:15:58Z Josh_2: nope
2020-04-20T15:16:11Z Josh_2: it simply reads the correct amount bytes which are basically preprogrammed
2020-04-20T15:16:11Z jmercouris: I'm saying I dont' believe it
2020-04-20T15:16:18Z jmercouris: I don't think that's the problem
2020-04-20T15:16:31Z Josh_2: hmm
2020-04-20T15:16:45Z Josh_2: one sec
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2020-04-20T15:37:38Z Josh_2: as an fyi I have 3 different parsers and each one has the same problem. Each of the parsers relies on those three functions
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2020-04-20T15:45:20Z jmercouris: hello
2020-04-20T15:46:57Z Josh_2: Hey
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2020-04-20T16:00:52Z Bike: the clhs page on the abort restart mentions the possibility of multiple processes. i ownder if t here's anything else in the standard that does
2020-04-20T16:01:21Z phoe: clhs abort
2020-04-20T16:01:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_abort.htm
2020-04-20T16:03:17Z phoe: Bike: https://github.com/antoszka/dpANS3/search?q=%22multi-processing%22&unscoped_q=%22multi-processing%22
2020-04-20T16:03:20Z phoe: seems not
2020-04-20T16:03:31Z Bike: weird.
2020-04-20T16:04:04Z antoszka: ugh, me, surprisingly
2020-04-20T16:04:40Z Bike: sldb assumes there's always a restart available, in that you get mildly confusing messages if there's not and you try to sldb-quit
2020-04-20T16:05:21Z phoe: Bike: "mplementors are encouraged to make sure that there is always a restart named abort around any user code so that user code can call abort at any time and expect something reasonable to happen"
2020-04-20T16:05:33Z Bike: right.
2020-04-20T16:06:15Z Bike: what sldb-quit actually does in threads is invoke the last restart returned by (compute-restarts), rather than specifically an abort restart, though.
2020-04-20T16:09:04Z Bike: threads other than the repl thread, i mean
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2020-04-20T16:15:07Z Josh_2: I think I found the source of the problem
2020-04-20T16:16:48Z Josh_2: Yep
2020-04-20T16:16:56Z Josh_2: it was my encryption function...
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2020-04-20T16:19:07Z Josh_2: It was this function (ironclad:read-os-random-seed :random *prng*) ...
2020-04-20T16:22:10Z Josh_2: Well that was a frustrating few hours
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2020-04-20T16:35:35Z phoe: Bike: that's weird
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2020-04-20T16:35:46Z phoe: that restart can be RETRY or anything
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2020-04-20T16:42:29Z Bike: it is kind of weird, but practically speaking it will be a restart to abort the thread.
2020-04-20T16:42:42Z Bike: probably good to standardize that, ofc
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2020-04-20T16:51:32Z jmercouris: Josh_2: Aha!
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2020-04-20T18:51:55Z akflcar: hi
2020-04-20T18:51:57Z akflcar: is there a notation for writings algorithms, similar to programming languages. but for pure algorithms.
2020-04-20T18:52:12Z phoe: akflcar: pseudocode
2020-04-20T18:52:35Z akflcar: a more formal representation of mathematical expressions.
2020-04-20T18:52:49Z akflcar: theorem checkers tend to use some of those
2020-04-20T18:53:07Z phoe: I think that'll depend on the theorem prover in question
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2020-04-20T18:53:15Z phoe: e.g. ACL2 uses some lispy notation
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2020-04-20T19:05:49Z phoe: hmm
2020-04-20T19:07:00Z phoe: usability question: let's assume that we have a form (with-debugger (#'debugger) ...) that intercepts the system debugger and instead calls #'debugger
2020-04-20T19:07:11Z phoe: what should be the value of *debugger-hook* inside the body of that form?
2020-04-20T19:07:43Z phoe: and what should be the value of *debugger-hook* bound around the call to #'debugger?
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2020-04-20T19:08:35Z jackdaniel: clim-debugger binds itself (so it assumes that no condition will be /its own/ fault)
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2020-04-20T19:09:24Z phoe: I mean, let's assume that I control powers greater than *debugger-hook* itself
2020-04-20T19:09:33Z phoe: which allows me to e.g. control what (break) does
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2020-04-20T19:10:03Z jackdaniel: I don't know what that means
2020-04-20T19:10:31Z Bike: invoke-debugger-hook, probably
2020-04-20T19:10:32Z phoe: (with-debugger (#'debugger) (break)) calls #'debugger instead of entering the standard debugger
2020-04-20T19:10:35Z phoe: yes, that
2020-04-20T19:10:55Z phoe: ;; except it's called differently and works differently in many implementations, that's why I wanted to avoid calling it by name
2020-04-20T19:11:17Z jackdaniel: clim-debugger binds both
2020-04-20T19:11:20Z jackdaniel: afair
2020-04-20T19:11:36Z jackdaniel: (i'm not saying that's the right or wrong thing to do, just giving a reference point)
2020-04-20T19:11:51Z phoe: yep, I'm thinking about it now
2020-04-20T19:12:38Z phoe: one idea is that *debugger-hook* should stay the same, preferably, since it is allowed to be bound by the user, only if the debugger hook returns, the actual debugger installed by WITH-DEBUGGER is called
2020-04-20T19:14:19Z phoe: that'll also allow for code that, for whatever reason, depends on being able to bind the debugger hook itself?... is that even a thing in practice
2020-04-20T19:14:44Z jackdaniel: it is, portable debuggers do that ,)
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2020-04-20T19:15:03Z jackdaniel: but it doesn't matter, if it binds variables inside your own macro, then they will shadow your bindings
2020-04-20T19:15:08Z jackdaniel: so it is not a problem
2020-04-20T19:15:12Z phoe: yes, except portable debuggers can't deal with (break) unless they bind invoke-debugger-hook of sorts
2020-04-20T19:15:21Z phoe: at which point the debugger hook becomes pointless anyway
2020-04-20T19:15:22Z jackdaniel: yes, that's what portability layers are for
2020-04-20T19:15:33Z jackdaniel: (or feature conditions)
2020-04-20T19:15:42Z phoe: yes, I am currently working on such a portability layer
2020-04-20T19:15:53Z phoe: and I'm wondering how I should treat cl:*debugger-hook*
2020-04-20T19:16:11Z jackdaniel: my point is that it is not a rocket science and it is probable that there are other libraries doing exactly that (vide swank, clim debugger and probably more)
2020-04-20T19:16:32Z phoe: I know it's not rocket science, I'm just thinking about what would be a good default
2020-04-20T19:16:47Z jackdaniel: bind both, if someone want to rebind them it is not a problem
2020-04-20T19:16:53Z phoe: OK
2020-04-20T19:17:48Z jackdaniel: by saying that it is not a rocket science I don't mean that it is not a worthwhile project (I don't have opinion on that), I'm only saying that there is no need to think of it as something what other software won't do
2020-04-20T19:17:53Z Josh_2: jmercouris: in case you are curious this is what I was working on https://github.com/K1D77A/simple-secure-sockets/blob/finite-state-machine/src/encryption/encryption.lisp
2020-04-20T19:18:46Z phoe: jackdaniel: understood
2020-04-20T19:18:57Z jackdaniel: also, I think that the trendy term for that is now "it is not quantum physics", apparently space traviel is not very important anymore
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2020-04-20T19:21:43Z theseb: Are there any limitations to symbol (variable) names? I mean...could you do stuff like redefine numbers and booleans? That sounds bad
2020-04-20T19:21:55Z phoe: theseb: you cannot redefine numbers
2020-04-20T19:22:02Z phoe: variable names must be symbols
2020-04-20T19:22:15Z jackdaniel: theseb: you may quote the symbol name, i.e '|42|
2020-04-20T19:22:25Z phoe: they also cannot be constant variables and they better not mix with anything defined in the CL package
2020-04-20T19:23:17Z jackdaniel: 'cl-user::42 :)
2020-04-20T19:23:25Z theseb: phoe: is that the only limitation.....that they cannot be numbers?
2020-04-20T19:23:37Z phoe: theseb: symbols cannot be numbers in general
2020-04-20T19:23:43Z phoe: they are distinct types
2020-04-20T19:23:44Z theseb: phoe: i imagine you also cannot have a *space* in a symbol name
2020-04-20T19:23:50Z phoe: '|But you can|
2020-04-20T19:23:54Z phoe: A symbol name is an arbitrary string
2020-04-20T19:24:13Z phoe: but the name of a symbol is not the symbol itself
2020-04-20T19:24:47Z theseb: phoe: ok...the name of the symbol...can it have spaces?
2020-04-20T19:24:51Z phoe: a symbol is first and foremost a piece of identity that is eql only to itself; it only happens to have a name because for programming convenience
2020-04-20T19:24:54Z phoe: theseb: yes
2020-04-20T19:25:00Z theseb: phoe: i don't see how you could specify that in lisp code
2020-04-20T19:25:13Z phoe: (symbol-name '|Spaces in the name|) ;=> "Spaces in the name"
2020-04-20T19:25:16Z jackdaniel: symbols are specified to be EQ, not only EQL
2020-04-20T19:25:20Z Bike: the || are escape characters. they say that what's in the middle is a symbol.
2020-04-20T19:25:36Z phoe: (symbol-name 'Spaces\ in\ the\ name) ;=> "SPACES IN THE NAME"
2020-04-20T19:25:45Z Bike: so they bypass the usual parsing rules where space ends a token.
2020-04-20T19:25:53Z theseb: just wow
2020-04-20T19:26:58Z theseb: what would be a good simple rule for a little lisp i'm writing for symbol names?.....I didn't realize distinguishing between strings and symbol names would be so subtle
2020-04-20T19:27:16Z phoe: how little are you thinking?
2020-04-20T19:27:30Z phoe: if it's tiny, you can just have a single global namespace, no packages or anything
2020-04-20T19:27:38Z theseb: I was considering only allowing alphanumerics but then you couldn't do stuff like define + to be add .
2020-04-20T19:27:51Z phoe: also, all of it ultimately depends on your reader algorithm
2020-04-20T19:27:53Z theseb: oy vey
2020-04-20T19:28:18Z phoe: that is what'll decide whether it has just read a symbol or not a symbol.
2020-04-20T19:29:08Z Bike: if you're just playing around, i.d either say there are no signed number literals, or symbols like + or - aren't allowed. CL distinguishes them fine, but it's a bit confusing.
2020-04-20T19:29:26Z jackdaniel: theseb: this is not Common Lisp question (and this channel is about Common Lisp). that said you may look into eulisp identifier decription (it describes its grammar: http://henry.github.io/EuLisp/Doc/EuLisp-0.991/eulisp.pdf#syntaxssclause.9.3.0.3
2020-04-20T19:29:49Z jackdaniel: )
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2020-04-20T19:32:24Z theseb: jackdaniel: i shall thanks
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2020-04-20T19:45:38Z jmercouris: for CFFI foreign library directories, what is the order?
2020-04-20T19:45:43Z jmercouris: first element in the list tried?
2020-04-20T19:45:53Z jmercouris: I'm trying to help a user with a compilation issue: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/next/issues/684#issuecomment-616767033
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2020-04-20T19:46:38Z akflcar: p⊃ q=  (p→ q,T→ T) is a boolean expression just like p∧ q stands for p and q
2020-04-20T19:47:07Z akflcar: so what is that twisted U symbol , which operation is it?
2020-04-20T19:47:18Z jmercouris: I believe that is a union symbol
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2020-04-20T19:47:28Z jmercouris: or some sort of set symbol, I can't remember
2020-04-20T19:47:43Z Bike: ⊃ is a material implication, but i don't understand why you're asking here
2020-04-20T19:47:56Z akflcar: i am reading the lisp paper
2020-04-20T19:48:23Z Bike: nowadays it's somewhat more common to write p → q
2020-04-20T19:49:05Z akflcar: but i think it's some boolean-like mathematical expression, just curious
2020-04-20T19:49:20Z Bike: yes, it's material implication.
2020-04-20T19:49:27Z akflcar: what's that
2020-04-20T19:49:31Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditional
2020-04-20T19:50:03Z akflcar: that is often symbolized by a forward arrow "→". The material conditional is used to form statements of the form p → q
2020-04-20T19:50:10Z jmercouris: ah right, I remember the symbol now
2020-04-20T19:50:15Z akflcar: I know if p then q...
2020-04-20T19:50:15Z jmercouris: yes, bike is correct
2020-04-20T19:50:51Z Bike: p → q is equivalent to ¬p ∨ q, as it says later in that article.
2020-04-20T19:51:03Z jmercouris: true, true
2020-04-20T19:51:17Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: did you look in the cffi source code?
2020-04-20T19:51:21Z jmercouris: I did
2020-04-20T19:51:30Z jmercouris: docstring did not reveal anything obvious
2020-04-20T19:51:34Z jackdaniel: did you navigate to load-foreign-library?
2020-04-20T19:51:41Z jmercouris: I did not
2020-04-20T19:51:56Z jackdaniel: that will lead you to %do-load-foreign-library
2020-04-20T19:52:20Z akflcar: if p is False then why is the output always True..
2020-04-20T19:52:43Z Bike: i don't think any of us are prepared to teach you classical logic.
2020-04-20T19:52:52Z phoe: especially on #lisp
2020-04-20T19:53:17Z akflcar: I already know boolean logic.
2020-04-20T19:53:44Z akflcar: if p then q... ok so if p is true then q... but it says nothing if p is false... so the result is undefined.
2020-04-20T19:54:20Z phoe: akflcar: please move the topic to #lispcafe.
2020-04-20T19:54:36Z jackdaniel: which will lead you eventually to load-foreign-librar-path
2020-04-20T19:54:52Z jackdaniel: which, when you read it, will tell you what is the order
2020-04-20T19:54:52Z jmercouris: I was wondering why it was a single argument passed...
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2020-04-20T19:55:59Z jmercouris: if-let, that's so useful!
2020-04-20T19:56:12Z jackdaniel: then there is when-let and when-let*
2020-04-20T19:56:16Z jackdaniel: s/is/are/
2020-04-20T19:56:19Z jmercouris: i see yes
2020-04-20T19:56:22Z jmercouris: i'm now in alexandria
2020-04-20T19:56:43Z jackdaniel: don't get distracted, you are doing a due dilligence by looking for the solution for your problem!
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2020-04-20T19:57:00Z jmercouris: right
2020-04-20T19:57:06Z jmercouris: I'm going to look in parse-directories now...
2020-04-20T19:57:31Z jmercouris: seems that it goes from 0th element to nth element
2020-04-20T19:57:38Z jmercouris: so left to right
2020-04-20T19:58:00Z jackdaniel: bingo, and you did it all by yourself, congratulations
2020-04-20T19:58:12Z jmercouris awaits my award
2020-04-20T19:58:21Z jmercouris: thanks
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2020-04-20T20:33:35Z _death: akflcar: look up vacuous truth
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2020-04-20T20:37:47Z _death: this is why every/notany/and return true and some/notevery/or return false when no items are supplied
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2020-04-20T20:43:49Z phoe: aaaah
2020-04-20T20:44:00Z phoe: some implementations bind the debugger hook to NIL
2020-04-20T20:44:08Z phoe: some implementations bind the invoke debugger hook to NIL
2020-04-20T20:44:21Z phoe: some call the invoke-debugger-hook before debugger-hook
2020-04-20T20:44:29Z phoe: some call the debugger-hook before invoke-debugger-hook
2020-04-20T20:44:58Z phoe: nope, I'm going to sleep
2020-04-20T20:46:44Z phoe: and I'll likely define the debugger to be a function of one argument only - the condition; and say that it is undefined to set or rebind *debugger-hook* within WITH-DEBUGGER
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2020-04-20T21:16:04Z bitmapper: i've been contemplating making a opengl backed ui toolkit for common lisp because none of the other options are portable or integrate well with cl
2020-04-20T21:25:51Z xristos: bitmapper: something like Factor's IDE would be great (and not at all like what most opengl toolkits for CL look like, since they're immediate mode and focused on games)
2020-04-20T21:26:07Z bitmapper: yeah i know
2020-04-20T21:26:08Z xristos: but it's a lot of work
2020-04-20T21:26:25Z xristos: i talked to slava years ago, actually spent time doing it myself
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2020-04-20T21:27:39Z xristos: it turned out a little better than my first attempt: http://xristos.sdf.org/opengl-lispm.mov
2020-04-20T21:27:58Z xristos: but it's bitrotting away since i abandoned it
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2020-04-20T21:44:57Z Shinmera: bitmapper: I have been working on that since summer.
2020-04-20T21:45:05Z Shinmera: bitmapper: https://github.com/shirakumo/alloy
2020-04-20T21:46:10Z Shinmera: Some demos at the end of this here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkDl6Irujx9Mh3BWdBmt4JtIrwYgihTWp
2020-04-20T21:46:31Z Shinmera: and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jQKHBSwt6E&list=PLkDl6Irujx9NUeqnEkRsFZ6bLS24B-6lT&index=67
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2020-04-20T21:49:28Z Shinmera: progress has been slow because, surprise surprise, making a UI toolkit is a gargantuan task.
2020-04-20T21:49:52Z Shinmera: I'd appreciate any help or interest in Alloy.
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2020-04-21T00:32:10Z pjb: minion: memo for akflcar: yes, there are several such notations.  One that is quite purely mathematical is the notation used by Jacques Arsac, eg. in La Construction de programmes structurés, Dunod, 1977.  But any programming language is a sufficient algorithmic notation. Including lambda-calculus or Haskell.
2020-04-21T00:32:10Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell akflcar when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-04-21T01:16:40Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Should I bother with Maiden or simply make a raw tcp connection and conditionally answer regex-matches for a bot?
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2020-04-21T01:31:09Z no-defun-allowed: For IRC? I would rather use Maiden, or at least some IRC library like cl-irc.
2020-04-21T01:32:13Z pjb: Aurora_v_kosmose: type: /msg botihn sources
2020-04-21T01:32:25Z Aurora_v_kosmose:  /msg botihn sources
2020-04-21T01:32:32Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Ignore that happened.
2020-04-21T01:33:08Z no-defun-allowed: Ignore what happened?
2020-04-21T01:33:15Z Aurora_v_kosmose: :p
2020-04-21T01:33:21Z pjb: Irc commands must not be prefixed with spaces!
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2020-04-21T01:35:48Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Oh that's nice. And the textfile with explanations.
2020-04-21T01:40:44Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Thanks for the hint
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2020-04-21T01:45:18Z pjb: Aurora_v_kosmose: There's also https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/-/tree/master/small-cl-pgms/botil  with a more sophisticated architecture, and some diagrams.
2020-04-21T01:47:04Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Thanks.
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2020-04-21T03:00:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-21T04:39:16Z mr_yogurt: can i get a substring without copying? the equivalent of something like const char* my_substr = big_str + 10; (only need to remove a prefix)
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2020-04-21T04:40:18Z no-defun-allowed: You could make a string that is displaced to the other string.
2020-04-21T04:40:49Z no-defun-allowed: (make-array 3 :element-type 'character :displaced-to "Foo bar baz" :displaced-index-offset 4) ; ⇒ "bar"
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2020-04-21T04:43:58Z mr_yogurt: cool, thanks
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2020-04-21T04:55:38Z aeth: mr_yogurt: generally, everything in CL provides a start and an end (or start1 start2 end1 end2 if it takes in two)
2020-04-21T04:56:02Z aeth: so there's rarely the need to work with a substring
2020-04-21T05:00:37Z mr_yogurt: uh, ppcre appeared to not match ^ if you didn't start at 0 but i was using it wrong
2020-04-21T05:00:47Z aeth: ah
2020-04-21T05:01:26Z aeth: if a library like that didn't support start/end properly, that would be a big bug since that's the only really efficient way to work with strings
2020-04-21T05:01:48Z mr_yogurt: is doing make-array like that expensive?
2020-04-21T05:02:28Z aeth: Iirc, it's probably cheaper than SUBSEQ, but it's not as cheap as start/end if you can use them
2020-04-21T05:02:36Z no-defun-allowed: No, but some overly subtyped code might not accept displaced arrays, because AREFing a displaced array is a bit slower than a non-displaced array.
2020-04-21T05:02:54Z aeth: "overly subtyped" eh
2020-04-21T05:02:58Z aeth: simple-array stuff is very common
2020-04-21T05:03:05Z aeth: and, yes, that's the other issue
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2020-04-21T05:09:18Z aeth: and imo start/end is like the C idiom, except of course in C you only provide the end because the start is implicitly part of the pointer you pass in.
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2020-04-21T05:49:15Z drmeister: What do folks do when you have a function defined with defun and you want to switch it to a generic function?
2020-04-21T05:49:33Z phoe: fmakunbound + defgeneric?
2020-04-21T05:50:00Z phoe: the defgeneric can have a :method without any specializers if you want to preserve the old defun body.
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2020-04-21T05:51:28Z drmeister: fmakunbound - right - I was searching for several permutations of that symbol.
2020-04-21T05:51:55Z drmeister: "the defgeneric can have a :method without any specializers if you want to preserve the old defun body." - interesting - thank you.
2020-04-21T05:52:08Z phoe: lemme give you a quick example
2020-04-21T05:53:37Z phoe: drmeister: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1765#1765 that oughtta work
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2020-04-21T05:56:44Z drmeister: Got it - thank you.
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2020-04-21T07:34:10Z White_Flame: does dynamic extent foil tail call optimization?
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2020-04-21T07:34:32Z beach: That could very well happen, sure.
2020-04-21T07:35:07Z beach: Depends on how the implementation allocates and deallocates objects defined that way.
2020-04-21T07:35:10Z White_Flame: doing some continuation-based stuff, but creating closures does a ton of little consing
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2020-04-21T07:44:35Z pjb: minion memo for amerlyq: I know more postmortem for C++ projects: Why should I have written ZeroMQ in C, not C++ <http://250bpm.com/blog:4>
2020-04-21T07:44:38Z pjb: minion: memo for amerlyq: I know more postmortem for C++ projects: Why should I have written ZeroMQ in C, not C++ <http://250bpm.com/blog:4>
2020-04-21T07:44:38Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell amerlyq when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-04-21T08:27:03Z asarch: How do you open your web app to the LAN with Caveman2?
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2020-04-21T08:29:41Z phoe: asarch: looks like https://github.com/fukamachi/caveman/blob/master/README.markdown#start-a-server
2020-04-21T08:30:05Z phoe: the started server should be available on the provided port on all network interfaces
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2020-04-21T08:32:26Z asarch: However, it is not. For example: (notebook:start :port 8000) I get "Hunchentoot server is started. Listening on 127.0.0.1:8000." but I get: "Firefox can’t establish a connection to the server at 192.168.1.101:8000"
2020-04-21T08:33:41Z no-defun-allowed: From memory, if it listens on 127.0.0.1 (localhost), then it'll only accept connections directly from localhost.
2020-04-21T08:34:01Z phoe: oooh
2020-04-21T08:34:10Z phoe: so caveman doesn't bind the host properly.
2020-04-21T08:34:29Z phoe: or rather, it *does* bind it properly - it binds it to localhost though.
2020-04-21T08:34:36Z no-defun-allowed: I would recommend adding :host "0.0.0.0" or something like that.
2020-04-21T08:35:00Z phoe: hunchentoot syntax is :address "0.0.0.0"
2020-04-21T08:35:46Z no-defun-allowed: I think I got bit in the backside by that (in NodeJS) when I had a "great wall of china" firewall set up for a school project five years ago. Then I had set up port forwarding and could access my server from home, but then it didn't work at school. Fun times.
2020-04-21T08:36:32Z asarch: Maybe a global set for production/development var?
2020-04-21T08:37:04Z asarch: (Mojolicious from Perl used to have this global set)
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2020-04-21T08:38:32Z asarch: Anyway, I will post this issue :-P
2020-04-21T08:40:58Z asarch: Thank you guys :-)
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2020-04-21T11:20:17Z phoe: Let's say I have a macro named DEFINE-FOO that immediately calls some function %FOO, and the actual form-computing happens inside that function.
2020-04-21T11:20:26Z phoe: s/%FOO/%DEFINE-FOO/
2020-04-21T11:20:43Z phoe: How can I name %DEFINE-FOO if I want to avoid the percent sign?
2020-04-21T11:21:02Z phoe: Or rather, how *should* I name it? MAKE-DEFINE-FOO-EXPANSION?
2020-04-21T11:21:12Z phoe: Is there any other convention for that?
2020-04-21T11:22:04Z _death: define-foo-expand sounds ok
2020-04-21T11:22:38Z _death: if you're uncomfortable with "define" as prefix, expand-define-foo
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2020-04-21T11:25:49Z adlai: phoe: -builder
2020-04-21T11:25:52Z phoe: _death: thanks, the second sounds okay
2020-04-21T11:26:12Z phoe: I'm kind of pet-peeved by using names starting with define-
2020-04-21T11:26:16Z phoe: build-define-foo also is good
2020-04-21T11:26:50Z adlai: further afield: blueprinter, designer, archictor
2020-04-21T11:26:56Z adlai: * architector
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2020-04-21T11:30:16Z phoe: factory
2020-04-21T11:31:32Z adlai: -factory is also an option, although my interpretation of that suffix is that the function returns a closure rather than a form
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2020-04-21T11:34:10Z pjb: phoe: (defmacro define-foo (name stuff) (generate-foo name stuff))
2020-04-21T11:34:39Z pjb: phoe: (defmacro define-foo (name stuff) (generate-foo-definition name stuff)) ; if you have other foos.
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2020-04-21T11:59:30Z phoe: CLHS DEFINE-CONDITION: "If the type being defined and some other type from which it inherits have a slot by the same name, only one slot is allocated in the condition, but the supplied slot form overrides any slot form that might otherwise have been inherited from a parent-type. If no slot form is supplied, the inherited slot form (if any) is still visible."
2020-04-21T11:59:49Z phoe: ewwww, that is such an ugly difference from DEFCLASS
2020-04-21T12:02:34Z phoe: or is it, one second...
2020-04-21T12:03:53Z pjb: Note that there's little point in overriding the generated accesors for subclasses…
2020-04-21T12:04:27Z Bike: err, does this say that you can use (slot-name initform) as a slot definition
2020-04-21T12:04:29Z Bike: that's news to me
2020-04-21T12:04:51Z phoe: "No implementation is permitted to extend the syntax of define-condition to allow (slot-name form) as an abbreviation for (slot-name :initform form). "
2020-04-21T12:05:26Z phoe: but what I meant is
2020-04-21T12:05:27Z phoe: (defclass foo () ((x :reader x :initform 42))) (defclass bar () (x)) (x (make-instance 'foo)) #| 42 |# (x (make-instance 'bar)) #| error |#
2020-04-21T12:05:41Z phoe: uhh wait
2020-04-21T12:06:02Z Bike: i'm confused. it says the slot-name part of the syntax is "a slot name (a symbol), the list of a slot name, or the list of slot name/slot form pairs"
2020-04-21T12:06:15Z Bike: rather than just a symbol
2020-04-21T12:06:15Z phoe: wait a second...
2020-04-21T12:06:32Z phoe: Bike: haha, right
2020-04-21T12:06:41Z phoe: it's not the part I am concerned about though
2020-04-21T12:06:41Z _death: without looking at clhs, does this imply no CLOS-like slot merging? I would guess so, to avoid having to drag CLOS complexity into the condition system
2020-04-21T12:06:53Z phoe: "the supplied slot form overrides any slot form that might otherwise have been inherited"
2020-04-21T12:07:08Z phoe: so one can expect:
2020-04-21T12:07:09Z phoe: (defclass foo () ((x :reader x :initform 42))) (defclass bar (foo) (x)) (x (make-instance 'foo)) #| 42 |# (x (make-instance 'bar)) #| 42 |#
2020-04-21T12:07:17Z phoe: (define-condition foo () ((x :reader x :initform 42))) (define-condition bar (foo) (x)) (x (make-instance 'foo)) #| 42 |# (x (make-instance 'bar)) #| error |#
2020-04-21T12:07:23Z phoe: but the latter doesn't really happen
2020-04-21T12:07:32Z Bike: i thought it was implementation defined, not an error.
2020-04-21T12:07:47Z phoe: the spec says "overrides"
2020-04-21T12:07:52Z phoe: what does it mean in this context?
2020-04-21T12:07:56Z _death: clhs define-condition
2020-04-21T12:07:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_5.htm
2020-04-21T12:08:32Z phoe: does it mean that X is an illegal reader for BAR conditions, even though that would violate Liskov's substitution principle?
2020-04-21T12:09:15Z phoe: but that would also mean that :initform 42 shouldn't be there, so not only we have an illegal reader but an illegal initialization
2020-04-21T12:09:19Z phoe: wtf, x3j13
2020-04-21T12:10:47Z phoe: this also means that DEFINE-CONDITION cannot be easily implemented via DEFCLASS + DEFMETHOD PRINT-OBJECT, because now we have to explicitly disable slot inheritance...
2020-04-21T12:11:29Z Bike: so the rule is that there's no initform the implementation can put whatever there, right?
2020-04-21T12:11:31Z _death: it also uses "slot form" (remember that forms are meant to be evaluated...) rather than "slot specification" ("slot-spec") ;)
2020-04-21T12:11:45Z phoe: Bike: it seems so
2020-04-21T12:11:56Z Bike: so the implementation just puts the inherited thing there
2020-04-21T12:11:57Z Bike: bam
2020-04-21T12:12:30Z phoe: it's not supposed to put the inherited thing there though, it's supposed to "override" the inherited slots
2020-04-21T12:12:46Z phoe: which I understand as "treat that name-colliding slot as if it inherited absolutely nothing"
2020-04-21T12:12:54Z Bike: but in this case it's overriding it with something implementation dependent.
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2020-04-21T12:13:00Z Bike: so the implementation does whatever. don't sweat it.
2020-04-21T12:13:02Z _death: oh, it defines "slot form" in an earlier paragraph
2020-04-21T12:13:03Z phoe: clhs glossary 0
2020-04-21T12:13:06Z phoe: clhs glossary o
2020-04-21T12:13:10Z phoe: gah
2020-04-21T12:13:31Z phoe: ..."override" is not even defined in the glossary
2020-04-21T12:13:39Z Bike: i really don't get the "slot form" thing. is it different from an initform? what's with the syntax?
2020-04-21T12:13:40Z adlai: _death, indeed, quite an exercise in compiler golf is to implement the condition system with lazy conditions
2020-04-21T12:14:10Z phoe: wait a second then
2020-04-21T12:14:23Z phoe: _death: where is it defined?
2020-04-21T12:16:20Z _death: it says "If a slot name/slot form pair is supplied, the slot form is a form that can be evaluated by make-condition to produce a default value when an explicit value is not provided. If no slot form is supplied, the contents of the slot is initialized in an implementation-dependent way."
2020-04-21T12:16:41Z _death: so now you have to figure out what is a slot name/slot form pair
2020-04-21T12:16:53Z _death: then there's "Slot-name -- a slot name (a symbol), the list of a slot name, or the list of slot name/slot form pairs."
2020-04-21T12:17:12Z Bike: i think this is all crap and it works like defclass.
2020-04-21T12:17:14Z phoe: .....this seems like a remaint from the times when slots were defined like (define-condition foo () ((x 42)))
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2020-04-21T12:17:23Z _death: which is a weird recursive definition
2020-04-21T12:17:28Z phoe: Bike: I'm so tempted to follow your advice
2020-04-21T12:17:49Z phoe: I just want to avoid a situation where I write something in a book and someone comes to me pointing at the standard and saying that I wrote bullshit stuff
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2020-04-21T12:18:33Z Bike: just say the spec says weird things but implementations generally do it like defclass, which as far as i know, they do.
2020-04-21T12:18:39Z _death: cliki errata page says: "Issue DEFINE-CONDITION-SLOT-NAME: The syntax where slot-name is "the list of slot name/slot form pairs" seems redundant, given :initform. Was it left in by accident?"
2020-04-21T12:18:41Z phoe: yes, they do
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2020-04-21T12:19:25Z phoe: _death: okay, now I am convinced
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2020-04-21T12:20:18Z _death: of what?
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2020-04-21T12:21:09Z _death: I would guess by "slot form" they indeed meant the initform
2020-04-21T12:21:38Z phoe: that would work, yes; you don't use superclass initforms if you have your own initform
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2020-04-21T12:21:45Z _death: then you can have name/form pairs ((slot1 form1) (slot2 form2))
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2020-04-21T12:22:02Z phoe: which are then explicitly not allowed by the spec
2020-04-21T12:22:09Z phoe: amazing stuff
2020-04-21T12:22:17Z phoe: but anyway, I am now convinced that I can go with Bike define-condition theorem
2020-04-21T12:22:28Z phoe: "i think this is all crap and it works like defclass."
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2020-04-21T12:23:07Z _death: well, now the paragraph you initially quoted makes sense
2020-04-21T12:23:17Z _death: "the supplied slot form overrides any slot form that might otherwise have been inherited from a parent-type"
2020-04-21T12:23:38Z phoe: if we interpret slot forms as initforms, yeah
2020-04-21T12:24:30Z _death: so it's simply a restricted slot merging rule
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2020-04-21T12:24:53Z adlai: Bike, that approach is valid as long as recursion of slot access failure terminates with fallback to non-clos
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2020-04-21T12:25:51Z adlai: otherwise, you're stuck with no middle ground between clos working, and having to use external debuggers (or at best, or worst, various LDBs)
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2020-04-21T12:27:23Z Bike: i mean, look, there's a point where you have to decide the spec is being dumb and to do the obvious thing instead. especially for something minor like this.
2020-04-21T12:28:57Z Xach: also known as the "anti-sbcl stratagem"
2020-04-21T12:29:00Z adlai: phoe, have you considered a chapter/section specifically on implementation details? e.g., as starting points, see whether any of the less-common implementations have ANSI compliance failures, and explain briefly why each one happens
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2020-04-21T12:30:14Z adlai: Xach, isn't it better to default as anti-specific ? then you can ~only~ resort to the spec
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2020-04-21T12:30:38Z Xach: i don't know
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2020-04-21T12:31:48Z Bike: i thought xach was joking about how sbcl does things implied by the spec that people think are weird, like nil arrays or whiny defconstant.
2020-04-21T12:32:01Z _death: another issue is that of multiple inheritance.. if we inherit from two condition types that have slot specifiers with the same slot name, what happens?
2020-04-21T12:34:18Z _death: because define-condition sits on the clos-noclos fence, it misses out on complexities dealt by CLOS
2020-04-21T12:34:25Z adlai: _death, since the inheritors know of the ancestor condition's package, they probably intended for the various nostril sparks that ensue
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2020-04-21T12:35:37Z phoe: adlai: nope, I haven't considered that
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2020-04-21T12:40:19Z adlai: phoe, ideally there'd be no failures in any of the implementations, although the condition system is extensive enough that there can be ANSI compliance failures without rendering an implementation unusable
2020-04-21T12:41:03Z phoe: adlai: I'll write it only if someone will provide its content for me. I don't feel like manually checking all implementations for ANSI compliance details regarding the condition system.
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2020-04-21T12:41:42Z phoe: I think this stuff belongs to implementations themselves and to their bugtrackers/manuals, not to a book that treats about the standard condition system.
2020-04-21T12:41:47Z _death: adlai: it may be intentional.. for example with a mixin.. but the define-condition description does not specify slot merging behavior there
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2020-04-21T12:43:18Z adlai: phoe, that is a sensible approach; wrt an earlier question of yours, my most hated part of the condition system is the fact that the relation between handler-case and handler-bind is nontrivially distinct from that between restart-case and restart-bind
2020-04-21T12:43:41Z adlai: ... and my favorite part of the condition system is, naturally, ignore-errors
2020-04-21T12:43:57Z _death: ignore-errors is a misnomer, since it doesn't really ignore them :)
2020-04-21T12:44:11Z phoe: adlai: is it really distinct? the only big distinct thing is :NO-ERRORS
2020-04-21T12:45:34Z phoe: I mean, :no-error
2020-04-21T12:46:04Z phoe: ;; which also should be named :no-condition since handler-case can be used for non-error conditions too
2020-04-21T12:46:39Z phoe: oh right, the other thing is handler clustering - a handler can only see handlers "older" than itself
2020-04-21T12:46:56Z phoe: right, these two already sum up to nontrivial
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2020-04-21T12:47:17Z _death: do you explain restart-bind in your book?
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2020-04-21T12:47:21Z phoe: yes
2020-04-21T12:47:25Z phoe: want to take a peek?
2020-04-21T12:47:35Z Bike: the difference is that handler-bind is useful and common, unlike restart-bind
2020-04-21T12:47:47Z phoe: :(
2020-04-21T12:48:07Z _death: and with-condition-restarts?
2020-04-21T12:49:12Z adlai: phoe, when I first studied the condition system, my main conclusion was that handler-case has an implicit progn, while -bind doesn't; then, i realized that this neither incorrect, nor the strongest reason to ever use any one of the four macros
2020-04-21T12:49:20Z adlai used to optimise for "never use progn, ever"
2020-04-21T12:49:37Z Bike: that's... kind of a weird thing to optimize for?
2020-04-21T12:49:37Z phoe: adlai: same about restart-bind and restart-case, the latter has an implicit progn
2020-04-21T12:50:02Z Bike: restart-bind has an implicit progn, not -case
2020-04-21T12:50:16Z phoe: wait a second
2020-04-21T12:50:21Z Bike: i mean, it is the same as the handler macros, yeah
2020-04-21T12:50:22Z phoe: uh yes, I flipped them around, just like adlai
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2020-04-21T12:50:31Z phoe: -bind have progns, -case don't
2020-04-21T12:50:40Z phoe: _death: with-condition-restarts is an operator used in edge cases so severe that if you notice that you need to use it, your program likely has bigger problems than needing to use with-condition-restarts
2020-04-21T12:50:51Z phoe: </rant>
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2020-04-21T12:51:56Z adlai: progn adds a nesting level, leading to excess newlines when you hit pprint-right-margin
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2020-04-21T13:02:33Z phoe: adlai: anyway, want to see my way of describing restart-bind?
2020-04-21T13:03:08Z phoe: since that got lost in the discussion
2020-04-21T13:03:40Z phoe: asking because you sounded like you might have some valuable comments on the matter
2020-04-21T13:03:41Z adlai: sure, that is bound to be more pleasant than the unstandardized trash heap that awaits parsing, someday
2020-04-21T13:03:57Z phoe gets worried about the unstandardized trash heap
2020-04-21T13:03:59Z phoe: https://gist.github.com/phoe/5659f8e5d8ff85e99565de17e39e4449
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2020-04-21T13:04:51Z adlai: nonono, do not worry about the heap of trash! just use a fibonacci heap, prioritized by char-code, and leave processing of twenty-first century 'standards' to idiots who hope to survive to see the 22nd
2020-04-21T13:05:58Z adlai opens that gist in a separate window, to facilitate ignoring programs that are so haphazard as to require multiple warnings that nobody even knows whether they're standardized or not, although nobody knows where the standard is located, if you had any doubts
2020-04-21T13:06:47Z adlai: phoe: should I jump to a specific heading?
2020-04-21T13:07:41Z phoe: adlai: "a simple system of restarts" has restarts
2020-04-21T13:07:48Z phoe: "a simple system of condition handlers" has handlers
2020-04-21T13:08:05Z phoe: the book is meant to be read linearly, but you should find your way around there
2020-04-21T13:08:33Z adlai: if it's meant to be read in sequence, then it should be read in sequence!
2020-04-21T13:08:35Z White_Flame used his very first TAGBODY/GO
2020-04-21T13:09:02Z White_Flame: to basically make something like a cond-let, as per alexandria's when-let etc
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2020-04-21T13:09:35Z adlai hits fork, `git clone ...` in shell, will read further; thank you for these efforts, phoe !
2020-04-21T13:10:31Z _death: phoe: I will also put it on the queue
2020-04-21T13:10:38Z phoe: adlai: thanks! please delete your fork when you're done cloning
2020-04-21T13:10:54Z phoe: I'll want it to get forked when it's complete enough, since I keep on updating this current WIP version with new stuff.
2020-04-21T13:11:12Z phoe: _death: OK
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2020-04-21T13:12:32Z adlai: phoe, ah. the reason i forked is because i plan to send you edits, and i doubt github gists allow those other than the gist creator to push
2020-04-21T13:12:48Z phoe: adlai: ooh, OK - I'll gladly accept reviews
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2020-04-21T13:23:15Z pjb: armed bear: https://pasteboard.co/J4Q2H5s.png
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2020-04-21T14:06:30Z jmercouris: I'm trying to understand an error: http://dpaste.com/3E78RYN
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2020-04-21T14:06:42Z jmercouris: I have a load-lisp function where I can optionally specify a package
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2020-04-21T14:06:49Z jmercouris: when I do not specify a package, it works just fine
2020-04-21T14:07:00Z jmercouris: when I specify a package, it loses its mind, and gives me a most mysterious error, which is a lie
2020-04-21T14:07:10Z phoe: wait a second...
2020-04-21T14:07:14Z phoe: #P"..." is a pathname
2020-04-21T14:07:33Z jmercouris: Yes it is
2020-04-21T14:07:42Z jmercouris: why should it be OK with it if I do not specify a package but otherwise angry?
2020-04-21T14:08:03Z jmercouris: (load-lisp init-file :interactive t) == OK, (load-lisp init-file :interactive t :package (find-package :next)) == Deep rage
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2020-04-21T14:09:00Z phoe: your DECLAIM FTYPE seems broken
2020-04-21T14:09:08Z phoe: you state that :package is of type NIL
2020-04-21T14:09:14Z jmercouris: ah, shit, yes
2020-04-21T14:09:14Z pjb: jmercouris: you should not test (equal "" file) because 1- perhaps the file system would allow it, 2- if the file system doesn't allow it, you will already get an error from OPEN !
2020-04-21T14:09:15Z phoe: which is a very bad declaration to make
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2020-04-21T14:10:14Z jmercouris: pjb: you can pass a string of "" to read from stdin
2020-04-21T14:10:25Z pjb: jmercouris: a good pattern would be to have a (load-lisp-stream stream …), and the (load-lisp designator …) function could call load-lisp-stream either on *standard-input* or on an opened stream.
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2020-04-21T14:10:37Z jmercouris: that's a good idea
2020-04-21T14:10:43Z pjb: jmercouris: no, the doc says "-", not "".
2020-04-21T14:10:59Z jmercouris: right, you are right :-D
2020-04-21T14:10:59Z pjb: jmercouris: *package* must be of type PACKAGE.
2020-04-21T14:11:00Z Bike: that's a pretty unfortunate type error. is that coming froms bcl or from your handler there?
2020-04-21T14:11:21Z jmercouris: Bike: I can't say, I'm removing the declaration now, and we'll see
2020-04-21T14:11:38Z phoe: that should get you out of UB zone
2020-04-21T14:11:48Z pjb: jmercouris: if you allow package designators in the parameter package, then use (let ((*package*  (if package (find-package package) *package*))) …)
2020-04-21T14:12:03Z phoe: a function whose argument is declared to be of type NIL is a function that cannot really be called, you know
2020-04-21T14:12:16Z jmercouris: it was but a typo :O
2020-04-21T14:13:07Z jmercouris: is there a package type?
2020-04-21T14:13:13Z Bike: sure.
2020-04-21T14:13:30Z pjb: jmercouris: you cannot name parameter with keywords, because keywords are constant variables!
2020-04-21T14:13:30Z jmercouris: what should I put there package?
2020-04-21T14:13:47Z jmercouris: pjb: I don't understand
2020-04-21T14:13:51Z pjb: Oh, sorry, wrong line.
2020-04-21T14:13:54Z Bike: (:package package) in the type.
2020-04-21T14:14:09Z Bike: that said, you might want to have it take a package designator instead, so you can do :package "NEXT-USER" or whatnot.
2020-04-21T14:14:10Z jmercouris: that will just work? that's crazy
2020-04-21T14:14:15Z Bike: that's crazy?
2020-04-21T14:14:20Z pjb: jmercouris: but your ftype doesn't seem right anyways for the keywords.
2020-04-21T14:14:23Z jmercouris: In a good way
2020-04-21T14:14:41Z phoe: jmercouris: a package designator is tl;dr a thing suitable to pass to FIND-PACKAGE
2020-04-21T14:14:41Z Bike: well, actually, you can't make it just package. that's false, since you can pass nil
2020-04-21T14:14:58Z jmercouris: how should I express that?
2020-04-21T14:15:02Z jmercouris: I'm not so good with ftype yet
2020-04-21T14:15:05Z Bike: (or null package)
2020-04-21T14:15:13Z Bike: or (or null package-designator), if you do that
2020-04-21T14:15:23Z pjb: jmercouris: you can also use (load *standard-input* …)
2020-04-21T14:15:46Z phoe: jmercouris: trivial-types:package-designator
2020-04-21T14:15:52Z Bike: then you'd bind package to like (if package (find-package package) *package*) i guess.
2020-04-21T14:16:03Z jmercouris: but if you pass a package to find-package
2020-04-21T14:16:06Z jmercouris: will it not get angry?
2020-04-21T14:16:10Z phoe: try it!
2020-04-21T14:16:14Z _death: don't try it
2020-04-21T14:16:17Z phoe: (find-package *package*)
2020-04-21T14:16:18Z _death: clhs find-package
2020-04-21T14:16:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_p.htm
2020-04-21T14:16:24Z Bike: if you pass find-package a package it returns the package, as it says in the standard.
2020-04-21T14:16:26Z pjb: jmercouris: also, don't test file-exists-p before load, since the file may be deleted by another process in between those calls!!!
2020-04-21T14:16:36Z jmercouris: pjb: uh oh :-D
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2020-04-21T14:16:45Z jmercouris: wow, it actually works!
2020-04-21T14:16:51Z jmercouris: man oh man, every day a learning day
2020-04-21T14:16:56Z _death: since NIL is also a package designator, you may want to use the suppliedp syntax
2020-04-21T14:17:08Z phoe: also, (deftype package-designator () '(or string-designator package))
2020-04-21T14:17:11Z jmercouris: I'm not too worried about people trying to use a nil package
2020-04-21T14:17:28Z phoe: ;; (defpackage #:nil (:use :cl))
2020-04-21T14:17:47Z _death: or have a top-level :eof in a file.. ;)
2020-04-21T14:18:12Z jmercouris: lol
2020-04-21T14:18:13Z phoe: ;; or even better, (defpackage #:nil (:use :cl)) (find-package '()) ;=> works!
2020-04-21T14:18:23Z jmercouris: if people want to mess up their configuration, they can do so
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2020-04-21T14:19:01Z _death: the idiom for that is (read stream nil stream) and then compare against the stream
2020-04-21T14:19:37Z pjb: So, basically: (let ((*package* (if package (find-package package) *package*))) (flet ((load-it () (load (if (equal "=" file) *standard-input* file))))  (case interactive ((t) (load-it)) ((:running) (handler-case (load-it) (err) (print err))) ((nil) (handler-case (load-it) (err) (print err) (uiop:quit 1))))))
2020-04-21T14:20:20Z jmercouris: why not (or (find-package package) *package*)?
2020-04-21T14:20:28Z jmercouris: I had an if before but changed it to or
2020-04-21T14:20:48Z pjb: jmercouris: when you need to test for eof yourself: (loop with eof = (list 'eof) for o = (read stream nil eof) until (eq eof o) …)
2020-04-21T14:21:53Z pjb: jmercouris: yes, if you want to allow for a package named NIL.  As said, you need to use (defun load-type (… &key (package nil packagep)) (let ((*package* (if packagep (find-package package) *package*))) …))
2020-04-21T14:22:43Z jmercouris: package-supplied-p
2020-04-21T14:22:55Z jmercouris: i'll think about it, I don't think that's really necessary honestly
2020-04-21T14:23:12Z pjb: jmercouris: now, there's also the question whether (let ((*package* (find-package "MY-PACKAGE"))) (load file)) needs a wrapper (load-lisp file :package "MY-PACKAGE")…
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2020-04-21T14:24:53Z _death: jmercouris: if you do (or (find-package package) *package*) then it's ok
2020-04-21T14:25:24Z jmercouris: OK, then it is fine :-)
2020-04-21T14:25:41Z jmercouris: what's what I ended up doing
2020-04-21T14:25:44Z jmercouris:   (let ((*package* (or (find-package package) *package*)))
2020-04-21T14:27:18Z phoe: sure, sounds good
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2020-04-21T14:31:21Z adlai finds himself surprised there's not yet a "trivial-eof" library that fuzzes this out of walking code-char until most-positive-fixnum
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2020-04-21T14:34:54Z phoe: huh? fuzzes? what do you mean?
2020-04-21T14:35:02Z phoe: EOF is not a character
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2020-04-21T14:40:27Z _death: DOS used to have an end-of-file indicator (ascii code 26, SUB, which is what you'd get if you typed C-z)
2020-04-21T14:40:48Z _death: but this is not relevant to READ
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2020-04-21T14:42:44Z phoe: so does Linux shell, C-d
2020-04-21T14:42:54Z Bike: that's not a character, is it?
2020-04-21T14:42:57Z phoe: (code-char 4)
2020-04-21T14:43:08Z phoe: it doesn't cause an EOF though
2020-04-21T14:43:19Z phoe: it's just a standard ASCII/Unicode character, like all others.
2020-04-21T14:43:20Z _death: phoe: in ascii, 4 is code for end-of-transmission
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2020-04-21T14:43:53Z _death: phoe: but it's not really an eof indicator in the same way.. if a file had char 26, then the DOS "TYPE" command would stop there
2020-04-21T14:44:56Z _death: phoe: so some file began with a short human-readable message followed by this code, so that if a user TYPEd it, they see the message and no more jumble
2020-04-21T14:47:40Z _death: it also reminds me how the #\$ is used for end-of-string with AH=9, INT 21H
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2020-04-21T15:23:14Z phoe: Bike: we were wrong
2020-04-21T15:23:25Z phoe: clhs 9.1.4.2
2020-04-21T15:23:25Z specbot: Restarts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_adb.htm
2020-04-21T15:23:29Z phoe: "A restart function can itself invoke any other restart that was active at the time of establishment of the restart of which the function is part."
2020-04-21T15:24:01Z phoe: so the clustering mechanism also is in full effect for restarts
2020-04-21T15:25:20Z Bike: it doesn't say they can't invoke dynamically closer restarts.
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2020-04-21T15:26:01Z Bike: restart functions in ecl/clasp and sbcl don't unwind that part of the dynamic environment, either.
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2020-04-21T15:26:51Z phoe: it doesn't say it can invoke dynamically closer restarts either
2020-04-21T15:26:55Z phoe: sigh
2020-04-21T15:27:17Z phoe sings a song about yet another omission in the spec™
2020-04-21T15:28:00Z Bike: i don't think reading this as meaning it has to unwind the restart clusters is very reasonable.
2020-04-21T15:28:19Z phoe: I mean, that would be consistent with how handlers work
2020-04-21T15:28:25Z Bike: i mean, like, say you invoke a restart and the restart then transfers control back to wherever. does it then have to RE wind the restart clusters?
2020-04-21T15:28:35Z Bike: how would that even be accomplished?
2020-04-21T15:28:39Z phoe: RE?
2020-04-21T15:28:43Z Bike: rewind.
2020-04-21T15:28:51Z Bike: but like, i'm saying the "re" part extra loud.
2020-04-21T15:29:22Z phoe: oh - you find the restart on the list of handler clusters, and you rebind *handler-clusters* to a particular CDR of the previous value of *handler-clusters*
2020-04-21T15:29:26Z phoe: and then you call the restart function
2020-04-21T15:30:10Z phoe: and then the NLToC happens... but I don't know how that affects that
2020-04-21T15:31:23Z phoe: ccl doesn't unwind the restart clusters either
2020-04-21T15:31:29Z phoe: oh well
2020-04-21T15:32:30Z Bike: this interpretation would also break code i've personally written, so like nah
2020-04-21T15:32:42Z Bike: for example a restart that does something and then invokes muffle warning or whatever
2020-04-21T15:32:58Z phoe: yes, I imagine that's handy
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2020-04-21T17:03:42Z phoe: hoo boy
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2020-04-21T17:04:53Z phoe: there's a total of 12 pure functions I have created for my implementation of restart-case
2020-04-21T17:05:09Z phoe: but then again, it's the most complex macro in the restart system
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2020-04-21T17:28:13Z alandipert: phoe mostly code generation? or parsing
2020-04-21T17:29:55Z phoe: alandipert: kinda both
2020-04-21T17:30:11Z phoe: 1) we need to parse keyword differences between restart-bind and restart-case
2020-04-21T17:30:26Z phoe: 2) we need to extract keyword-value pairs from the case body
2020-04-21T17:30:51Z phoe: 3) we need to macroexpand and inspect the form to possibly transform it into a WITH-CONDITION-RESTARTS call
2020-04-21T17:31:56Z phoe: the first two are painful because they're stupid, and the third is painful because it's just painful
2020-04-21T17:33:48Z alandipert: phoe perhaps consider the parser combinator lib beach made for SICL LOOP
2020-04-21T17:34:04Z phoe: alandipert: that's like shooting a fly with a cannon
2020-04-21T17:34:24Z Bike: takes forever and it'll probably dodge anyway
2020-04-21T17:34:32Z phoe: the first two could perhaps have been avoided; there's no reason restart-bind couldn't have :test/:interactive/:report instead of :test-function/:interactive-function/:report-function or the other way around; and the keywords didn't need to be spliced into in the case body
2020-04-21T17:34:42Z phoe: but then again, this makes RESTART-CASE more consistent with HANDLER-CASE, kind of
2020-04-21T17:36:28Z alandipert: i like shooting flies with cannons, that's why i use lisp B-)
2020-04-21T17:36:50Z alandipert: and i know the cost of nothing yada yada
2020-04-21T17:37:22Z phoe: (defun cost-of-nothing () (time nil))
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2020-04-21T17:50:09Z sjl_: (time (values)) seems more appropriate
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2020-04-21T18:29:44Z jackdaniel: wasn't it about memory allocation (the quote)?
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2020-04-21T18:35:20Z adlai wonders how many times (intern anystring-from-*standard-input* :nil)), after reading a tiny, tiny, teeeeeny amount of quicklisp-quickload sources
2020-04-21T18:35:49Z adlai: since there's a design decision there justifiable only by the citation of NIL as an implementation acronym.
2020-04-21T18:36:12Z Bike: why would you intern into the nil package?
2020-04-21T18:36:48Z adlai: not the () package, the (find-package ()) package
2020-04-21T18:37:00Z Bike: yes, the package called "NIL".
2020-04-21T18:37:10Z adlai: .clhs find-package
2020-04-21T18:37:31Z Bike: no dot.
2020-04-21T18:37:52Z adlai: clhs find-package
2020-04-21T18:37:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_p.htm
2020-04-21T18:38:30Z adlai is glad to read that an entire kind of error got abstracted out of compliant cl!
2020-04-21T18:38:54Z Bike: i have no idea what you're talking about.
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2020-04-21T18:39:39Z adlai: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIL_(programming_language)
2020-04-21T18:39:52Z Bike: sure?
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2020-04-21T18:40:10Z adlai: its existence has been cited as justification for decisions avoiding certain corner cases.
2020-04-21T18:40:33Z Bike: look, i'm not very smart sometimes, if you're trying to make a point you need to tell me what it is
2020-04-21T18:40:44Z Bike: what does this have to do with intern?
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2020-04-21T18:42:02Z adlai: that was a thinko
2020-04-21T18:43:38Z adlai: (get "human-readable-definition" "twenty-first-century-english:thinko") -> "idiot wanted to talk about a different thing, so different from thing actually talked about, as to not be excusable as merely a typo"
2020-04-21T18:43:58Z adlai: yes, yes, there's another missing call to find-symbol.
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2020-04-21T18:48:23Z phoe: jackdaniel: it was, yes
2020-04-21T18:49:24Z phoe: also https://github.com/marcoheisig/the-cost-of-nothing
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2020-04-21T19:50:30Z LdBeth: good morning
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2020-04-21T19:56:56Z phoe: heyyy
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2020-04-21T20:19:09Z Josh_2: should go to the shop
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2020-04-21T22:01:05Z adip: how can I add 2nd directory to source-registry using ~/.sbclrc file? I'm looking for something similar to PATH=$PATH:/additiona/dir
2020-04-21T22:01:23Z adip: sry if it's obvious, I'm a newbie
2020-04-21T22:01:42Z adip: (I don't want to edit system config, just append it in rc file)
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2020-04-21T22:12:17Z _death: maybe ql:*local-project-directories* is a good alternative
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2020-04-21T22:16:37Z adip: I don't have quicklisp intalled atm
2020-04-21T22:16:48Z adip: I'll look into that
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2020-04-22T00:20:51Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-04-21/failure-report/trivial-custom-debugger.html#trivial-custom-debugger_test
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2020-04-22T03:42:48Z White_Flame: finally wrote my own (do-mapcar (var list) ...) which can filter out elements and return multiple elements to be grafted in, as well as the common case
2020-04-22T03:44:49Z White_Flame: https://pastebin.com/23JWLAY4
2020-04-22T03:45:48Z aeth: Why "skip"?
2020-04-22T03:45:53Z aeth: I think Python uses "pass"
2020-04-22T03:45:59Z aeth: I might use "ignore" for something like that, though
2020-04-22T03:46:20Z White_Flame: nice that macrolets can define keyword-named macros for maximizing non-collisionality, I didn't expect that to work at first
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2020-04-22T03:46:38Z White_Flame: eh, the output skips some of hte input intems
2020-04-22T03:46:46Z White_Flame: -n
2020-04-22T03:47:17Z jeosol: nice
2020-04-22T03:47:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-04-22T03:47:32Z jeosol: Good morning beach!
2020-04-22T03:49:08Z White_Flame: re
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2020-04-22T04:15:27Z asarch: One stupid question: from a list, how could I get a range of elements? e.g. mathematically the (nth, nth+nth) elements of (list ...)?
2020-04-22T04:16:06Z beach: clhs subseq
2020-04-22T04:16:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm
2020-04-22T04:16:13Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-04-22T04:16:16Z asarch: Thank you very much!
2020-04-22T04:16:17Z asarch: :-)
2020-04-22T04:17:19Z asarch: Using CL-DBI, how could I do this query (from PostgreSQL SQL dialect)?: SELECT * FROM student ORDER BY id DESC LIMIT (20-10+1) OFFSET 10;
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2020-04-22T05:04:29Z pjb: asarch: also, you can use the :start and :end arguments of a lot of CL functions to avoid consing with SUBSEQ.
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2020-04-22T05:05:02Z pjb: (position 0 '(0 1 2 3 4 0 1 2 3 4) :start 2 :end 6) #| --> 5 |#
2020-04-22T05:05:25Z pjb: (+ (position 0 (subseq '(0 1 2 3 4 0 1 2 3 4) 2 6)) 2) #| --> 5 |#
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2020-04-22T05:23:47Z White_Flame: if I have (progn (tagbody ... fail) (tagbody ... fail)), then (go fail) should only find the tag within the current tagbody, right?
2020-04-22T05:24:05Z beach: Right.
2020-04-22T05:24:23Z beach: And the innermost one in case they are nested.
2020-04-22T05:24:30Z White_Flame: hmm.  because my execution is just disappearing after a filure in the 1st, and hte 2nd isn't running at all
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2020-04-22T05:25:18Z beach: Can we assume that your (go fail) is inside one of the TAGBODYs?
2020-04-22T05:25:39Z White_Flame: yes, and this is in macroexpansion
2020-04-22T05:28:45Z White_Flame: ah, there.  rubber-duck debugging succeeded (it was something else, of course :-P)
2020-04-22T05:28:56Z beach: Heh.  Great!
2020-04-22T05:29:06Z White_Flame: my 1st body was unexpectedly succeeding, and not running the 2nd
2020-04-22T05:29:26Z beach: I see.
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2020-04-22T05:30:03Z White_Flame: it's how I implemented a sort of cond-let, using (go fail) if the bindings in the test didn't work out
2020-04-22T05:30:29Z White_Flame: while leaving the LETs intact for the body of the cond clause to execute within
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2020-04-22T05:35:20Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-04-22T05:35:27Z asarch: Thank you very much pjb! :-)
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2020-04-22T05:45:41Z phoe: Xach: thanks, fixed.
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2020-04-22T05:52:06Z jeosol: I want to check some style issue to see if I doing something wrong:
2020-04-22T05:53:16Z jeosol: I have a class and I create a constructor to create an instance, e.g., (defun constructor (&rest args &key :first-name :last-name) (apply #'make-instance 'class-name args))
2020-04-22T05:53:50Z phoe: &key first name last-name
2020-04-22T05:53:55Z axion: You don't want to prepend colons to your keyword arguments in the lambda list.
2020-04-22T05:53:57Z jeosol: (defun constructor (&rest args &key :first-name :last-name) (apply #'make-instance 'class-name args))
2020-04-22T05:53:58Z phoe: you cannot have keywords as variables
2020-04-22T05:53:59Z jeosol: corrected
2020-04-22T05:54:06Z jeosol: It was mistake, I corrected it
2020-04-22T05:54:07Z phoe: nope, not corrected
2020-04-22T05:54:17Z phoe: you still have colons in there
2020-04-22T05:54:26Z jeosol: but I get warnings that the keywords are not used, not sure if that's I should be using
2020-04-22T05:54:31Z phoe: (defun constructor (&rest args &key first-name last-name) (apply #'make-instance 'class-name args))
2020-04-22T05:54:33Z jeosol: (defun constructor (&rest args &key first-name last-name) (apply #'make-instance 'class-name args))
2020-04-22T05:54:38Z phoe: (declare (ignore first-name last-name))
2020-04-22T05:55:22Z jeosol: but is that style bad? its legit I thought
2020-04-22T05:55:22Z axion: You only need the `&rest args` and the above declaration if you intend to pass additional arguments beyond those two.
2020-04-22T05:55:32Z phoe: you don't need to use first-name and last-name if you pass &rest args to another function
2020-04-22T05:55:42Z phoe: I have seen &rest + &keys in code where the keys are ignored
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2020-04-22T05:56:09Z phoe: and I don't consider that style to be bad - it limits the user to these two keyword arguments by default
2020-04-22T05:56:11Z axion: It's perfectly fine style if you need it.
2020-04-22T05:56:20Z jeosol: but if I call that constructor with a different keyword it should complain right
2020-04-22T05:56:30Z phoe: yes, it will complain by default
2020-04-22T05:56:38Z jeosol: and it does complain
2020-04-22T05:57:04Z jeosol: I added it that way instead of just the args as part of documentation.
2020-04-22T05:58:01Z phoe: sure, it's a meaningful way of documenting what can go into the constructor
2020-04-22T05:58:40Z phoe: but then again, I wonder if there's much gain in the constructor function if all it does is call make-instance; slime shows keywords for make-instance as a part of its lambda list displaying
2020-04-22T05:58:43Z jeosol: phoe: that's my reason, but you still recommend adding the (ignore ...) to remove the style-warnings?
2020-04-22T05:58:49Z phoe: buuuut that's another reason
2020-04-22T05:58:50Z phoe: jeosol: yes
2020-04-22T05:59:07Z phoe: the keywords in there are purely for lambda list validation, you only use the &rest parameter
2020-04-22T05:59:14Z phoe: so you can ignore the keywords
2020-04-22T05:59:51Z jeosol: I agree, it's a bit redundant having a constructor.
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2020-04-22T06:06:34Z jeosol: I use it that way in some cases, when I create objects, I do a bunch of other that stuff/calculations. not just create an instance. Nothing rigid at all.
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2020-04-22T06:13:33Z beach: jeosol: Both the AMOP and CLIM often omit the explicit &key parameters in case the current function does not process them explicitly.  By omitting them, its caller and its callee can communicate without the current function having explicit knowledge about this communication.
2020-04-22T06:13:50Z beach: This solution is sometimes better for the purpose of modularity and maintainability.
2020-04-22T06:15:50Z jeosol: beach: Thanks for that beach. I appreciate it.
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2020-04-22T06:16:49Z beach: Sure.
2020-04-22T06:17:12Z jeosol: So there is some merit to not add the parameters. I ran into some design issues, some of my functions take many arguments (but appropriately defaulted) because I am trying run many scenarios, e.g., change a few variables, leave others defaulted to
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2020-04-22T06:17:33Z jeosol: I end up with code that only I understand or can work it.
2020-04-22T06:17:58Z beach: Yes, there are situations where it is better to omit those explicit &key parameters.
2020-04-22T06:18:05Z jeosol: I mean it's documented, I use long variable names, verbs for functions, etc, most of the recommendations in Pittmans style document
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2020-04-22T06:19:24Z flip214: jeosol: perhaps it would make sense to split it up into some setup part (a "WITH-" macro) and a calculation part, each with fewer moving parts?
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2020-04-22T06:20:39Z jeosol: flip214: that's a good suggestion. I think leaving our the explicity key parameters will reduce the interface to the functions, and then I should look to splitting things up.
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2020-04-22T06:22:24Z jeosol: Dependency is something else, I'll need to look into and Fare mentioned looking at POIU, I never got it to work first time around.
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2020-04-22T06:30:42Z jeosol: I'll circle back to it later, and document my findings somewhere online.
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2020-04-22T06:37:20Z flip214: scymtym: do you have any content for https://github.com/scymtym/clim.flamegraph? Is that just a placeholder, "Hier könnte Ihre Werbung stehen"?  ;)
2020-04-22T06:38:32Z no-defun-allowed: flip214: Did you check the other branches of that repository?
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2020-04-22T06:43:38Z phoe: Are there any written resources that one can consult when dealing with multiple backquote?
2020-04-22T06:44:10Z phoe: I can see LOL does describe them.
2020-04-22T06:44:42Z phoe: Or rather, well. Mention. Not describe, unless I am not searching correctly.
2020-04-22T06:46:27Z beach: I try to avoid them as much as possible by factoring out some code.
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2020-04-22T06:47:41Z phoe: so do I, but it's present in actual code though - I'm looking at written resources that I can point someone to
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2020-04-22T07:14:41Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: no, I didn't
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2020-04-22T08:01:58Z ralt: good morning
2020-04-22T08:02:24Z beach: Hello ralt.
2020-04-22T08:02:39Z ralt: how does one debug a thread, in Lisp? Say, I have something that looks like a stuck thread, but I'm not exactly sure. In other languages I have tooling to grab stacks and stuff, but I don't know anything in Lisp.
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2020-04-22T08:03:22Z ralt: slime-list-threads -> "d" on the relevant thread
2020-04-22T08:03:37Z ralt: C-h m in that mode helped
2020-04-22T08:03:40Z ralt: sorry everyone
2020-04-22T08:05:06Z ralt: I am a firm believer in rubber duck debugging
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2020-04-22T08:21:40Z phoe: ralt: quack quack
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2020-04-22T08:23:52Z ralt: trying to think of a silly answer but can't come up with one, so, hello phoe
2020-04-22T08:24:22Z phoe: ralt: quack https://github.com/phoe/quicklisp-quackload quack quack
2020-04-22T08:24:44Z phoe: I wonder if I should change the description of that system to "it aids with rubber-duck debugging of Quicklisp..."
2020-04-22T08:25:10Z ralt: That is beautiful
2020-04-22T08:31:19Z scymtym: flip214: there two relevant branches: the "future" branch contains basically a graphical user interface for sb-sprof, the "advice-backend" branch contains an unfinished hybrid statistical/deterministic profiling system, also with a graphical user interface. i have no intention of including advertisements
2020-04-22T08:36:47Z pjb: phoe: IIRC, there was some posts and discussions, and perhaps a blog, about multiple backquotes in cll
2020-04-22T08:37:20Z pjb: phoe: there's an occurence of a triple embedded backquote in a macro in some library…
2020-04-22T08:37:26Z phoe: ouch
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2020-04-22T08:38:21Z pjb: Nothing strange about it, once you understand that ` is just constructing a sexp.
2020-04-22T08:41:18Z no-defun-allowed: Aw, alexandria:once-only only goes two levels deep.
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2020-04-22T09:03:06Z jackdaniel: no-defun-allowed: what does it mean?
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2020-04-22T09:06:15Z flip214: scymtym: thanks, will take a look
2020-04-22T09:06:40Z no-defun-allowed: jackdaniel: There are only two levels of quasiquotation, and I thought the macro had more.
2020-04-22T09:07:19Z jackdaniel: ah, you mean macro definition itself
2020-04-22T09:07:31Z jackdaniel: I thought your remark is about expansion and I did not understand it
2020-04-22T09:07:45Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah.
2020-04-22T09:09:07Z phoe: I wouldn't ever want a macro to expand into a quasiquoted form
2020-04-22T09:10:30Z no-defun-allowed: I think my cee-switch macro from a long time ago had a macro that expanded into a MACROLET which had a quasiquoted body.
2020-04-22T09:12:13Z no-defun-allowed: Huh, it's cee-case and I wrote it almost 1.5 years ago: https://pastebin.com/jPuXLRVe
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2020-04-22T09:14:03Z phoe: what's cee-case?
2020-04-22T09:14:24Z phoe: it looks like alexandria:switch
2020-04-22T09:14:31Z no-defun-allowed: A switching construct, that you have to break out of yourself.
2020-04-22T09:14:39Z phoe: ooh, I see now
2020-04-22T09:15:19Z no-defun-allowed: As you do in C(ee). I think someone wanted to know if it was possible in #clschool.
2020-04-22T09:15:59Z phoe: ooh, you mean will fallthrough
2020-04-22T09:16:10Z phoe: s/will/with/
2020-04-22T09:16:17Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah.
2020-04-22T09:24:11Z flip214: scymtym: for clim.flamegraph, is there a way to reduce the depth by not showing the function frames outside some limit, eg. above REPL-EVAL or so?
2020-04-22T09:24:28Z flip214: oh, a right mouse click does the trick
2020-04-22T09:24:29Z flip214: thanks
2020-04-22T09:36:28Z Shinmera: Anyone know of a library to fetch DNS records?
2020-04-22T09:36:46Z Shinmera: Preferably portable and pure lisp.
2020-04-22T09:37:15Z ralt: I always end up using getaddrinfo, sorry
2020-04-22T09:39:15Z Shinmera: I don't want to resolve the hostname, I need the actual records.
2020-04-22T09:39:35Z pjb: there's a dns library in cl, IIRC.
2020-04-22T09:40:08Z pjb: Have you tried cliki.net?
2020-04-22T09:40:18Z Shinmera: that was my first stop.
2020-04-22T09:40:49Z flip214: might be a fun project to learn https://cliki.net/Binary-types
2020-04-22T09:41:19Z ralt: https://github.com/fjames86/dragons seems to fit the bill
2020-04-22T09:41:26Z Shinmera: Yeah, but it's not on QL.
2020-04-22T09:41:31Z flip214: Shinmera: https://github.com/aerique/hello-dns-common-lisp
2020-04-22T09:41:47Z flip214: well, there's a local-projects that you can git clone into....
2020-04-22T09:42:10Z Shinmera: Won't work for a library, my man.
2020-04-22T09:42:57Z flip214: I beg your pardon?
2020-04-22T09:43:25Z Shinmera: If I want to distribute a library that uses dragons, then dragons needs to be in a dist, too.
2020-04-22T09:43:34Z flip214: ah, okay.
2020-04-22T09:43:39Z Shinmera: along with the rest of... whatever it is it uses.
2020-04-22T09:43:42Z flip214: well, open an issue to have it in the next ql release
2020-04-22T09:44:04Z Shinmera: like fsocket. and pounds. and drx?
2020-04-22T09:44:46Z ralt: lot of interesting libraries on that github account
2020-04-22T09:45:02Z Shinmera: a lot of NIH, yeah.
2020-04-22T09:45:24Z flip214: there's no issue for fsocket, is there?   https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues?q=is%3Aissue+fsocket
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2020-04-22T09:46:10Z flip214: and pounds is in QL
2020-04-22T09:46:39Z flip214: no issue for drx
2020-04-22T09:47:05Z flip214: well, you could always start a second, parallel QL dist
2020-04-22T09:47:22Z Shinmera: I could also just avoid the headache and write my own DNS client.
2020-04-22T09:47:54Z flip214: still need to get _that_ into QL.... and what was that right now about NIH?  ;)
2020-04-22T09:47:55Z ralt: that sounds like the most headache-inducing option to me
2020-04-22T09:48:11Z Shinmera: flip214: I wouldn't be reinventing sockets, for instance.
2020-04-22T09:48:47Z Shinmera: ralt: dealing with other people's messes is much more of a headache to me than dealing with my own mess.
2020-04-22T09:48:55Z Shinmera: that's how I got to having over 100 messes in QL.
2020-04-22T09:50:04Z beach: Shinmera: That's the spirit!  Keep it up!
2020-04-22T09:50:15Z pjb: I don't think it would be that difficult to implement a dns client in lisp.  That could take 2 days at most, I'd guess.
2020-04-22T09:50:17Z flip214: Shinmera: that's one of the points we like about you!
2020-04-22T09:50:32Z pjb: Shinmera: you probably already ate 1/4 of that budget looking for it !!!
2020-04-22T09:50:39Z Shinmera: pjb: probably!
2020-04-22T09:51:20Z jackdaniel: there is nothing wrong with such strategy, but accusing them of NIH (what seems to be a pejorative term) doesn't have much weight given it (this strategy that is)
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2020-04-22T09:52:20Z Shinmera: I have yet to write my own socket library. Maybe I'll get there some day.
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2020-04-22T09:53:50Z jackdaniel: s/given it/given the above/
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2020-04-22T10:01:28Z MichaelRaskin: Hmm. Combination of Windows, FFI and 2015 in fsocket makes me think it might have been actually more reliable on Windows than the alternatives (when written)
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2020-04-22T10:17:53Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: yo, you there?
2020-04-22T10:19:23Z no-defun-allowed: shka_: Hello.
2020-04-22T10:19:46Z shka_: query? i have some non-lispy questions
2020-04-22T10:20:03Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
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2020-04-22T10:45:53Z Josh_2: Can I just serve a static site with ningle?
2020-04-22T10:46:13Z Josh_2: I have managed to get the html to work but the CSS which I had to add an extra route for does not
2020-04-22T10:46:38Z Josh_2: firefox keeps saying "Style sheet could not be loaded""
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2020-04-22T10:48:51Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1766#1766
2020-04-22T10:50:09Z Josh_2: I would generate the html with cl-who etc but I'm working on this site with someone else who does not know cl, so It's more convenient to just have a static page
2020-04-22T10:51:04Z Grue`: is /css/main.css accessible by itself?
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2020-04-22T10:53:34Z Josh_2: it is when I just load the html straight into firefox
2020-04-22T10:53:37Z Josh_2: but not with ningle
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2020-04-22T10:55:21Z seok: Morning guys
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2020-04-22T10:56:04Z phoe: morning
2020-04-22T10:59:32Z Josh_2: Grue`: I found the problem I was using the key :main-page-css instead of :main-css...
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2020-04-22T11:04:18Z seok: Is Snooze the most used library for building a REST API
2020-04-22T11:04:53Z Xach: seok: i am not aware of any survey that would confirm or deny that question
2020-04-22T11:05:20Z seok: It was the only library listed on awesome-cl built specifically for REST
2020-04-22T11:05:43Z seok: I want something light, but having an issue with ningle
2020-04-22T11:06:08Z seok: I'm familiar with Caveman but feels like an overkill
2020-04-22T11:07:06Z seok: Eh, I could learn clack
2020-04-22T11:07:16Z Xach: seok: it is ok to make things too
2020-04-22T11:07:26Z seok: no.. I am still a newbie :(
2020-04-22T11:08:46Z boeg: anyone here using caveman2? Is the "start server and automatically rebuild as changes occur in codebase" feature that a lot of similar frameworks has built available in caveman2 too? I cannot seem to find it ...
2020-04-22T11:09:10Z seok: Yes
2020-04-22T11:09:30Z seok: I believe every web framework in CL works that way
2020-04-22T11:09:45Z boeg: so how do I use it?
2020-04-22T11:09:57Z boeg: doesn't seem to be "on" if I just :start my app
2020-04-22T11:10:00Z seok: just compile the routing s-exp
2020-04-22T11:10:18Z seok: What do you mean?
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2020-04-22T11:10:29Z boeg: just manually recompile it?
2020-04-22T11:10:29Z Xach: boeg: I am not familiar with caveman2, but in CL it is typical to recompile individual functions or data definitions to see changes. It is not usually based on file timestamp changes or things like that.
2020-04-22T11:10:36Z seok: You can access the page on your browser right?
2020-04-22T11:10:39Z boeg: Sure, I know I can do that, I was just wondering if I had to
2020-04-22T11:10:49Z Josh_2: Well I got it to work
2020-04-22T11:10:50Z seok: you don't have to restart the server
2020-04-22T11:10:51Z boeg: seok: indeed
2020-04-22T11:11:04Z Josh_2: Had to set the content type to "text/css"
2020-04-22T11:11:10Z seok: in caveman2, web.lisp in src/ folder
2020-04-22T11:11:14Z seok: contains the routing codes
2020-04-22T11:11:16Z boeg: Xach: correct, I was just wondering if caveman2 would do it for me like many webframeworks do
2020-04-22T11:11:23Z seok: edit that and just re-compile that line
2020-04-22T11:11:29Z seok: then refresh on your browser
2020-04-22T11:11:31Z Xach: boeg: i do not know about that, sorry.
2020-04-22T11:11:31Z boeg: seok: alright, thank you
2020-04-22T11:11:31Z seok: should work
2020-04-22T11:11:39Z boeg: Xach: no problem!
2020-04-22T11:11:47Z Xach: boeg: i'm curious - what would trigger the rebuild?
2020-04-22T11:12:13Z seok: It doesn't rebuild, but the server calls whatever lisp function it has in memory
2020-04-22T11:12:19Z boeg: Xach: I guess most webframeworks uses something like inotify?
2020-04-22T11:12:23Z Xach: boeg: ok
2020-04-22T11:12:28Z seok: which you can edit and compile while server is running
2020-04-22T11:12:38Z boeg: seok: indeed, like is the normal lisp way
2020-04-22T11:12:49Z boeg: seok: just wondered if caveman2 had that other thing also :P
2020-04-22T11:12:55Z boeg: its no problem that it doesnt though
2020-04-22T11:13:00Z boeg: seok: thank you for your help
2020-04-22T11:13:02Z seok: Am I answering your question right? Not sure if I understood it
2020-04-22T11:13:10Z boeg: seok: well, yes and no
2020-04-22T11:13:24Z boeg: I know I can just send a function to slime, thats how i usually do
2020-04-22T11:13:33Z boeg: but its not exactly the "watch for changes"
2020-04-22T11:13:41Z boeg: like is popular for many webframeworks
2020-04-22T11:13:49Z boeg: however its not a deal breaker in any way
2020-04-22T11:14:14Z boeg: seok: actually - how can I send a template change?
2020-04-22T11:14:20Z seok: You want to restart the server?
2020-04-22T11:14:21Z boeg: or does that just "work" out of the box?
2020-04-22T11:14:23Z boeg: ill try
2020-04-22T11:14:36Z seok: Still trying to figure out what you are trying to do
2020-04-22T11:14:53Z boeg: seok: sorry, let me explain
2020-04-22T11:14:57Z seok: No prob
2020-04-22T11:14:58Z seok: Sorry
2020-04-22T11:15:27Z seok: template change meaning you want to rewrite a particular web page right?
2020-04-22T11:15:28Z boeg: in many webframeworks in other languages, the usual way is that when you work on the codebase, you "start the server" and it will automatically watch for file changes in the project and recompile them
2020-04-22T11:16:16Z boeg: it seems that in caveman2 i should just send the changed code to sbcl per usual with lisp
2020-04-22T11:16:25Z boeg: regarding templates, it just seems to work somehow
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2020-04-22T11:16:29Z seok: You can do it either way
2020-04-22T11:16:29Z boeg: I dont have to recompile anything
2020-04-22T11:16:33Z seok: yeah
2020-04-22T11:16:43Z seok: You can do it like other languages, restart the server every time you edit
2020-04-22T11:16:47Z seok: but there is no need to do that
2020-04-22T11:16:50Z seok: that would be slower
2020-04-22T11:17:11Z boeg: i dont think the other frameworks restarts the server though, they just recompile the changes bits
2020-04-22T11:17:25Z boeg: not sure though
2020-04-22T11:17:29Z seok: Which frameworks are we talking about?
2020-04-22T11:17:34Z seok: like node?
2020-04-22T11:17:38Z boeg: for example flask and phoenix
2020-04-22T11:17:45Z seok: ok
2020-04-22T11:17:53Z seok: Don't you have to close the python application
2020-04-22T11:18:00Z seok: to apply the changes?
2020-04-22T11:18:11Z boeg: no it does that for me - i'm not sure if it actually restarts everything, but its very quick
2020-04-22T11:18:14Z boeg: miliseconds
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2020-04-22T11:18:29Z seok: compiling the routing is even faster though
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2020-04-22T11:18:41Z seok: because it only recompiles that one function
2020-04-22T11:19:02Z boeg: yeah, as i said, it doesnt matter, i think its actually probably a feature that caveman2 doesnt do it because it just uses the "normal common lisp work flow"
2020-04-22T11:19:46Z boeg: the best kind of feature; the one where you leaving out stuff becomes a strength :D
2020-04-22T11:19:49Z seok: like when you write "flask run" on command line right?
2020-04-22T11:19:53Z boeg: indeed
2020-04-22T11:20:05Z seok: I believe that restarts the server
2020-04-22T11:20:08Z boeg: alright
2020-04-22T11:20:39Z boeg: ive done a lot of professional flask work, but i dont like python
2020-04-22T11:20:43Z seok: That is same as app:stop and app:start
2020-04-22T11:20:57Z boeg: i've come to like elisp and common lisp over the last couple of months and thought out try out caveman2
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2020-04-22T11:21:08Z seok: Oh, I thought a lot of people liked working in flask
2020-04-22T11:21:14Z boeg: i like flask
2020-04-22T11:21:17Z boeg: i just dont like python
2020-04-22T11:21:21Z seok: Same here, I've moved from python
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2020-04-22T11:21:31Z seok: Haven't done any web work in python though
2020-04-22T11:21:49Z boeg: alright - i see that i actually have to go pick up my kid now!
2020-04-22T11:21:51Z boeg: thank you for the help
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2020-04-22T11:22:00Z seok: Nw, hope it helped
2020-04-22T11:22:04Z boeg: bye!
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2020-04-22T13:17:02Z jmercouris: let's say I'm calling a function which returns 2 values and I only want the second one, how can I do that?
2020-04-22T13:17:06Z jmercouris: right now I'm using multiple value bind
2020-04-22T13:17:13Z jmercouris: and ignoring the first arg, but that doesn't seem so right...
2020-04-22T13:17:33Z beach: clhs nth-value
2020-04-22T13:17:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_nth_va.htm
2020-04-22T13:17:37Z jmercouris: I tried that
2020-04-22T13:17:39Z jmercouris: Oh nth-value
2020-04-22T13:17:43Z jmercouris: damnit, always a couple characters off
2020-04-22T13:17:48Z jmercouris: thank you beach
2020-04-22T13:17:51Z beach: Sure.
2020-04-22T13:18:47Z beach: jmercouris: Here is a hint: go to the Common Lisp HyperSpec, use the Permuted Symbol Index, and search for "value".
2020-04-22T13:19:09Z beach: I mean, "value" is very likely to be part of the operator you are looking for.
2020-04-22T13:19:23Z jmercouris: I have the local hyperspec so I can fuzzy search it
2020-04-22T13:19:32Z jmercouris: I first searched and read multiple-value-bind maybe it would list a related function or so
2020-04-22T13:19:49Z beach: But a fuzzy search would likely give way too many hits.
2020-04-22T13:20:02Z jmercouris: it does :-D
2020-04-22T13:20:16Z beach: ... which is why I suggested the permuted index.
2020-04-22T13:20:49Z jmercouris: yes :-) next time I try
2020-04-22T13:21:35Z phoe: I have achieved a round number of pages: 128, to be exact
2020-04-22T13:21:38Z phoe: and I'm still not done
2020-04-22T13:21:41Z phoe sigh
2020-04-22T13:21:49Z jmercouris: it is a power of 2 though!
2020-04-22T13:22:01Z jmercouris: I believe in you phoe
2020-04-22T13:22:06Z phoe: that's why I said it is round, yes
2020-04-22T13:22:19Z jmercouris: round really doesn't mean anything in casual conversation
2020-04-22T13:22:32Z jmercouris: people often say intervals of 5 are a round number...
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2020-04-22T13:23:29Z phoe: mayhaps they use a quintary number base on a daily basis
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2020-04-22T13:25:14Z Josh_2: If I have this path #P"/home/josh/documents/website/site/css/milligram-1.3.0/package.js" and this  #P"/home/josh/documents/website/site/" how can I just get the /css/milligram-1.3.0/package.js ?
2020-04-22T13:26:56Z jmercouris: you could convert the path to a string
2020-04-22T13:27:13Z jmercouris: if you are more comfortable working with strings
2020-04-22T13:27:16Z Josh_2: is there no default way to do this?
2020-04-22T13:27:21Z jmercouris: there are ways
2020-04-22T13:27:40Z Josh_2: does uiop have the ability?
2020-04-22T13:27:47Z phoe: Josh_2:
2020-04-22T13:27:49Z phoe: clhs enough-namestring
2020-04-22T13:27:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_namest.htm
2020-04-22T13:28:00Z phoe: I think that's the one
2020-04-22T13:28:10Z phoe: oh wait, no, that's a namestring function
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2020-04-22T13:28:38Z jmercouris: what's tricky is that you want three layers
2020-04-22T13:28:50Z jmercouris: I can't think of a way to do it without looping
2020-04-22T13:30:00Z jmercouris: you know what would be cool? a function to convert a path to a list of subpaths forming that path
2020-04-22T13:30:19Z jmercouris: so if we had /location/something/salmon, we'd get a list of three elements "location" "something" "salmon"
2020-04-22T13:30:41Z phoe: found it
2020-04-22T13:30:47Z Bike: i thought pathname-directory did that.
2020-04-22T13:30:49Z phoe: (uiop/pathname:enough-pathname #p"/home/phoe/Downloads/099.jpg" #p"/home/phoe/") ;=> #P"Downloads/099.jpg"
2020-04-22T13:30:55Z phoe: uiop:enough-pathname is the one
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2020-04-22T13:31:19Z jmercouris: Bike: seems so
2020-04-22T13:31:32Z Josh_2: phoe: that works
2020-04-22T13:31:35Z Josh_2: thanks
2020-04-22T13:32:13Z Shinmera: Colleen: look up pathname-utils relative-pathname
2020-04-22T13:32:13Z Colleen: Function pathname-utils:relative-pathname https://shinmera.github.io/pathname-utils#FUNCTION%20PATHNAME-UTILS%3ARELATIVE-PATHNAME
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2020-04-22T13:52:32Z jmercouris: OK to use ironclad:random-data to suggest random passwords for users?
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2020-04-22T13:54:11Z phoe: jmercouris: it should be cryptographically secure, yes.
2020-04-22T13:54:33Z Kingsy: does anyone know of any good video courses about lisp and learning lisp? I find its a really good way to learn.
2020-04-22T13:54:45Z phoe: about Common Lisp specifically?
2020-04-22T13:55:11Z jackdaniel: pushing pixels with lisp  maybe?
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2020-04-22T13:55:38Z jackdaniel: by baggers
2020-04-22T13:55:51Z phoe: ^
2020-04-22T13:56:18Z Kingsy: phoe: I guess so, I am totally new to lisp in general, but I think common lisp is where to start right>?
2020-04-22T13:56:23Z jmercouris: phoe: thanks
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2020-04-22T13:57:48Z beach: Kingsy: Absolutely.
2020-04-22T13:58:08Z beach says that because that is what this channel is dedicated to.
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2020-04-22T14:00:31Z beach: Kingsy: I went to YouTube and typed Common Lisp, and there were some reasonable answers.
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2020-04-22T14:01:20Z phoe: Kingsy: sure - just remember that you're asking Common Lisp programmers whether Common Lisp is a good place to start ;)
2020-04-22T14:02:47Z jmercouris: get out while you still can
2020-04-22T14:02:52Z jmercouris: it is not too late for you
2020-04-22T14:03:28Z phoe: Kingsy: have you programmer before? if yes, how long?
2020-04-22T14:04:33Z phoe: s/how long/for how long/
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2020-04-22T14:08:16Z Lycurgus: missing be participle
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2020-04-22T14:08:59Z jmercouris: or russian
2020-04-22T14:09:23Z Lycurgus: slavic lang lang articles but they do inflect
2020-04-22T14:09:59Z Lycurgus: unclear about nominal stative
2020-04-22T14:10:07Z Lycurgus: which chinese is big on
2020-04-22T14:10:15Z Kingsy: phoe: quite a few years, I havea  degree in computing science. I use php everyday
2020-04-22T14:10:43Z phoe: Kingsy: baggers' stream should be good for you then
2020-04-22T14:10:48Z Lycurgus: s/lang lang/lang/
2020-04-22T14:11:01Z Lycurgus: *langs actually
2020-04-22T14:11:33Z phoe: you could also always watch the Sussman/Abelson SICP lectures if you want to refresh your programming basics while also learning the basics of Lisp
2020-04-22T14:12:18Z phoe: they use Scheme rather than Common Lisp, but the difference is not very big at the level of the lectures
2020-04-22T14:12:51Z Lycurgus: it's night and day uih
2020-04-22T14:12:59Z phoe: night and day?
2020-04-22T14:13:25Z phoe: later on, yes; just not at the beginnings where they describe the syntax, basic evaluation rules, the environment model and so on
2020-04-22T14:13:30Z Lycurgus: scheme vs cl
2020-04-22T14:13:40Z jmercouris: OoO! Scheme vs CL? man
2020-04-22T14:13:42Z phoe: closures, setters, all of that translates well between scheme and CL
2020-04-22T14:13:44Z jmercouris: Why didn't Phoe think of that?
2020-04-22T14:13:48Z phoe: only later the two diverge
2020-04-22T14:13:53Z jmercouris: That seems so obvious now that you point it out
2020-04-22T14:13:59Z jmercouris: I'm done being sarcastic now
2020-04-22T14:14:01Z phoe: wait what
2020-04-22T14:14:15Z jmercouris: I'm just saying I agree with phoe
2020-04-22T14:14:51Z phoe: ......that's a very *unique* way of saying that you agree with me
2020-04-22T14:15:10Z Lycurgus waits for the ##lisp nazi
2020-04-22T14:15:20Z phoe: I'm one of them, lol
2020-04-22T14:15:45Z phoe: I simply say that SICP lectures are good enough material for getting into Common Lisp, since they're good for getting into Lisp in general
2020-04-22T14:17:19Z Kingsy: phoe: could you chuck me across some links?
2020-04-22T14:17:52Z phoe: Kingsy: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-001-structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs-spring-2005/video-lectures/
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2020-04-22T14:20:50Z Kingsy: omg wow!
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2020-04-22T14:21:11Z Kingsy: are these the Sussman/Abelson SICP lectures you mentioned?
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2020-04-22T14:21:26Z phoe: yesssss
2020-04-22T14:21:57Z phoe: they teach basics of "computer" "science" in general, but you can also learn the very basics of Lisp by following them
2020-04-22T14:22:45Z Kingsy: phoe: ok cool, and whats baggers' stream ?
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2020-04-22T14:23:21Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2VAYZE_4wRJi_vgpjsH75kMhN4KsuzR_
2020-04-22T14:23:50Z phoe: he starts from the very beginning, too, and uses CL from the start - if SICP is too slow for you, you might enjoy that one
2020-04-22T14:23:53Z Kingsy: perrrrrrfect thanks
2020-04-22T14:24:50Z Kingsy: I'll be using vlime much to the absolute disgust of many I am sure! :D
2020-04-22T14:25:00Z phoe: no, not necessarily
2020-04-22T14:25:24Z Kingsy: oh. I thought LISP == EMACS most of the time.
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2020-04-22T14:26:20Z phoe: I've heard that vlime/slimv are kind of good nowadays; still subpar to slime and sly, but doable
2020-04-22T14:27:35Z Kingsy: well I am a vim nut... so sue me :D
2020-04-22T14:27:54Z phoe: there's also slima for atom that is being actively developed. which is very good, because it's a jailbreak out of the ancient "emacs or vim" box that lispers were effectively confined in ever since lisp machines died.
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2020-04-22T14:28:30Z jmercouris: also lem
2020-04-22T14:28:38Z Kingsy: oh nice! I don't currently have atom but that could be worth a look see
2020-04-22T14:28:38Z jmercouris: good luck running it
2020-04-22T14:28:44Z Kingsy: hah lem?
2020-04-22T14:29:00Z jmercouris: https://github.com/cxxxr/lem
2020-04-22T14:29:01Z phoe: also lem, hemlock, and climacs - editors developed within Common Lisp
2020-04-22T14:29:08Z phoe: ...and documentation, in case of lem.
2020-04-22T14:29:22Z phoe: https://github.com/cxxxr/lem/blob/master/docs/index.html is sort of a meme by now.
2020-04-22T14:29:41Z Kingsy: oh wow! cool
2020-04-22T14:30:01Z Kingsy: very nice. All dockered up and such.
2020-04-22T14:30:20Z Kingsy: hah!
2020-04-22T14:32:07Z Kingsy: so do all of you just do LISP for fun? like I am looking to do? or is it a job requirement?
2020-04-22T14:32:24Z jmercouris: both, frequently
2020-04-22T14:32:29Z beach: Indeed.
2020-04-22T14:32:46Z jmercouris: you'll find ways to incoroporate lisp into your job if you enjoy it
2020-04-22T14:32:58Z jmercouris: that's what many do when they can't find a lisp only position
2020-04-22T14:32:58Z phoe: there are some people who do Common Lisp professionally, some researchers, some hobbyists, some people who use it for writing their personal projects and utilities, some learners, some bookwriters, some people who don't easily fit into any of these categories too
2020-04-22T14:33:36Z Kingsy: yeah
2020-04-22T14:33:49Z phoe: we've a pretty varied kin, if I can even call #lisp a "kin"
2020-04-22T14:34:00Z Kingsy: My goal (I find it helpful to have a purpose when learning something) is to build a bulk file renaming tool.
2020-04-22T14:34:12Z Kingsy: and then after that, a server health check application
2020-04-22T14:34:31Z Kingsy: phoe: well it sounds like a good mix
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2020-04-22T14:34:41Z phoe: so, basically, a Lisp version of https://packages.debian.org/sid/rename ?
2020-04-22T14:34:59Z Kingsy: exactly.
2020-04-22T14:35:08Z jmercouris: could integrate with mezzano
2020-04-22T14:35:10Z phoe: and then something that accesses some network resource every X milliseconds and executing some function if it dies?
2020-04-22T14:35:11Z Kingsy: well I havent decided on specific requirements
2020-04-22T14:35:29Z Kingsy: phoe: haha! exactly again
2020-04-22T14:35:30Z phoe: both seem simple enough and could be written in Lisp as first projects, sure
2020-04-22T14:35:46Z Kingsy: yeah super simple, but both are things I need.
2020-04-22T14:36:11Z Kingsy: and I don't want to use bash. I am sick of that and moved onto elvish, but I already have a project for that.
2020-04-22T14:36:35Z phoe: sure, you can use lisp for writing these tools.
2020-04-22T14:36:41Z Kingsy: good to hear :)
2020-04-22T14:36:50Z Kingsy: thanks so much for the introduction and the links. Appreciate it
2020-04-22T14:37:01Z phoe: #clschool is a channel dedicated to people who are learning the basic; in case #lisp is full with some other discussion, you could try moving there with your questions
2020-04-22T14:37:16Z Kingsy: excellent will do
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2020-04-22T15:03:53Z Josh_2: When saving with asdf:make how do I drop into the repl when the entry-point function is complete?
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2020-04-22T15:09:13Z jmercouris: if you don't have a program-op it will allow you to drop into the REPL
2020-04-22T15:09:49Z jmercouris: that is, :build-operation
2020-04-22T15:09:49Z Josh_2: So if I remove :program-op ?
2020-04-22T15:09:59Z Josh_2: sorry
2020-04-22T15:10:02Z jmercouris: remove line :build-operation "program-op"
2020-04-22T15:10:04Z Josh_2: so if I remove :build-operation
2020-04-22T15:10:06Z Josh_2: Okay
2020-04-22T15:10:09Z Josh_2: will do. Thanks
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2020-04-22T15:10:14Z jmercouris: that should work
2020-04-22T15:10:35Z jmercouris: if not, keep removing, you can remove build pathname, entry point, and you can still asdf:make something
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2020-04-22T15:19:53Z Bike: it s ounds like josh might want to just run some code before entering the repl?
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2020-04-22T15:23:36Z phoe: that sounds like a thawing hook
2020-04-22T15:23:50Z phoe: UIOP/IMAGE:*IMAGE-RESTORE-HOOK* to be precise
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2020-04-22T16:44:26Z Xach: phoe: in my experience, referring to symbols with their full home package can be fragile  in asdf/uiop. it is safer to refer to their main package, UIOP (or ASDF).
2020-04-22T16:45:42Z phoe: Xach: correct
2020-04-22T16:45:53Z phoe: so, UIOP:*IMAGE-RESTORE-HOOK* to be even more precise
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2020-04-22T16:46:45Z Xach: it is a pain when generating code, since that is how they print
2020-04-22T16:47:10Z Xach could use a pprint dispatch update to get sanity or something
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2020-04-22T17:04:31Z aeth: Another argument for hierarchical packages, I guess.
2020-04-22T17:04:56Z aeth: Symbols could appear under the "top level" package.
2020-04-22T17:05:26Z Xach: I would prefer to internn in the external package and import into implementation packages.
2020-04-22T17:05:41Z phoe: that would be kinda better for modularity, honestly
2020-04-22T17:05:49Z Xach: "external" in the colloquial, not spec, sense.
2020-04-22T17:05:51Z phoe: the external package defines the protocol, the internal ones implement it
2020-04-22T17:06:02Z Bike: kind of a pain to write out, tho.
2020-04-22T17:06:10Z phoe: but then again, one could argue that the current approach is better for modularity, too
2020-04-22T17:06:11Z Bike: but maybe not, since uiop has its own defpackage operator
2020-04-22T17:06:13Z Xach: Only through pain do we achieve purity
2020-04-22T17:06:30Z phoe: uiop modules are completely separate and do not depend on external packages
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2020-04-22T17:06:45Z phoe: unless they explicitly specify that dependency, yadda yadda
2020-04-22T17:06:54Z phoe: they export their own symbols, hence modularity.
2020-04-22T17:06:56Z phoe: welp
2020-04-22T17:07:22Z phoe: I can actually imagine a useful library that defines pprint dispatch for such symbols, after accepting some package relationships
2020-04-22T17:09:45Z jackdaniel: modularity without merit is a root of all confusion
2020-04-22T17:10:47Z phoe: I do not think I am ready to start the debate about what is the merit of uiop's modularity
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2020-04-22T17:14:37Z aeth: one-package-per-file makes sense for absolutely huge projects because otherwise it becomes an absolute mess to work with imo
2020-04-22T17:14:53Z aeth: it's just that most projects are small, and are composed, and get modularity that way
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2020-04-22T17:29:09Z srandon111: guys i am at the lecture about the henderson - escher example... (i think it's lecture 5), and i can't understand what the professor mean when he says that by building hiis data as a function (when talking about piictures) he has all the procedures for free and can create simply an embedded language... i didn't understand how implementing pictures as functions allows this... can somebody explain?
2020-04-22T17:31:50Z Xach: what lecture?
2020-04-22T17:31:55Z Xach: SICP, I guess?
2020-04-22T17:34:47Z srandon111: Xach, yes
2020-04-22T17:35:09Z Xach: srandon111: I don't know how to make it clear to you, sorry, but the topic of this channel is common lisp. If I could figure a way to relate it to CL i'd give a shot at clarifying, but I can't, sorry.
2020-04-22T17:35:12Z srandon111: Xach, i know it's not really lisp, but scheme, but still i thought this was the most appropriate channel to ask
2020-04-22T17:35:19Z Xach: No, this is not really a good one.
2020-04-22T17:35:28Z srandon111: Xach, i am trying to do all of his excercises in common lisp
2020-04-22T17:35:37Z srandon111: Xach, that's the connection :D
2020-04-22T17:35:50Z Xach: I don't remember the exercise well enough to help, but maybe someone else does.
2020-04-22T17:35:59Z srandon111: ook thanks Xach
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2020-04-22T17:43:02Z _death: maybe you should read the book in addition to watching the video (those students had to read the book as well...)
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2020-04-22T17:47:20Z aeth: The book's online if you're not aware: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
2020-04-22T17:47:33Z aeth: There's even an unofficial, alternate HTML version: https://sarabander.github.io/sicp/
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2020-04-22T18:04:22Z rumbler31: srandon111: while this might not be the channel for an abstract discussion of the topic, I think you need to provide some more context for your question
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2020-04-22T18:24:12Z phoe: Could someone double-check if the double-evaluation avoidance inside my CCASE implementation is correct?
2020-04-22T18:24:19Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1769#1769
2020-04-22T18:24:59Z phoe: I think I got it right. I bind the variable to the value of KEYFORM before entering tagbody; this will prevent the keyform from being evaluated multiple times. The keyform is only placed to WITH-STORE-VALUE-RESTART because it is passed to SETF there.
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2020-04-22T18:27:14Z Bike: the standard explicitly allows subforms of the place to be evaluated again, so i think you're fine.
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2020-04-22T18:27:59Z pve: aeth: I find one-package-per-folder (module) to be a decent middle ground
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2020-04-22T18:30:33Z phoe: oh! good.
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2020-04-22T18:38:51Z Josh_2: I can use (sb-impl::toplevel-init) to go straight to the top level with sbcl
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2020-04-22T19:02:55Z boeg: Anyone here using caveman2? How/for what is the db/schema.sql file supposed to be used? It's not obvious to me since as far as I understand, there is no ORM built into caveman2 - no migrations and so on - but the file is part of the skeleton, so whats the idea with it? Just to define your database layout and manually apply it?
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2020-04-22T19:05:20Z markasoftware: Are (load)s evaluated at compile time?
2020-04-22T19:07:04Z phoe: markasoftware: nope
2020-04-22T19:07:36Z phoe: they're evaluated at execution time
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2020-04-22T19:09:23Z markasoftware: ok, thanks!
2020-04-22T19:10:00Z phoe: if you're looking into compile-time loads, you might instead want to look at system-defining software, such as ASDF
2020-04-22T19:10:21Z phoe: loading stuff at compile time is non-trivial
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2020-04-22T19:23:24Z markasoftware: i was looking into executable builders like buildapp
2020-04-22T19:24:11Z markasoftware: it does seem to be mostly based on asdf now that i take a closer look
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2020-04-22T19:31:06Z phoe: myself, I use Shinmera's deploy, which is based on uiop:dump-image
2020-04-22T19:31:25Z phoe: and it's somewhat more lispy than buildapp from what I've investigated it
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2020-04-22T19:32:03Z markasoftware: yeah, i don't like that buildapp is primarily a command line tool (though there's probably some way to use it from the repl that i'm not aware of)
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2020-04-22T19:35:47Z Xach: markasoftware: not really
2020-04-22T19:36:03Z Xach: markasoftware: except you can do (buildapp::command-line "--blah" "--blah" ...) as a hack, or similar
2020-04-22T19:36:07Z markasoftware: I suppose you would know :)
2020-04-22T19:36:09Z asarch: boeg, as far I understand, that is the place where you construct all your models from zero (in a blank new app)
2020-04-22T19:36:21Z Xach: see the source of buildapp:build-buildapp
2020-04-22T19:36:25Z markasoftware: i think sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die may actually be enough for my purposes
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2020-04-22T19:41:58Z markasoftware: but i'll definitely take a look at the buildapp source code to see how to include systems properly and all that
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2020-04-22T19:42:58Z ralt: I use :build-operation "asdf:program-op" :build-pathname "foo" :entry-point "foo:main" and (asdf:make #:foo)
2020-04-22T19:47:47Z Xach: markasoftware: buildapp, imho, is pretty simple. it turns the CLI args into a sequence of function calls saved to a file, then spawns a new SBCL to load that file and dump the executable.
2020-04-22T19:48:23Z Xach: markasoftware: the calls do things like extend the asdf search path, load a system, load a file, eval an expression. nothing too fancy.
2020-04-22T19:48:42Z aeth: pve: One package per directory, one package per file, and one package per project all have different tradeoffs. I'd say the main disadvantage of the middle ground approach is that it's not automated, and it doesn't produce one system per directory, unlike package-inferred-system. Even with a package-inferred-system project, you probably only want to load at the directory level anyway.
2020-04-22T19:48:55Z aeth: Files aren't necessarily a stable interface, but directories almost always should be...
2020-04-22T19:48:58Z Xach: the tricky part is setting up an environment that crashes properly in case of a problem, and unloading itself just before dumping, but you don't have to get too fancy for a specific project.
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2020-04-22T20:17:52Z pve: aeth: you're right.. I kinda wish asdf had some automation for one-package-per-directory, like package-inferred-system
2020-04-22T20:19:16Z aeth: It might be possible to patch it in.
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2020-04-22T20:26:32Z PuercoPop: oi, when writing a cffi wrapper, do both const char * and char * map map to :string? Is it not important to reflect the const in the 'lisp type'?
2020-04-22T20:27:04Z phoe: "const" is a C thing; it's gone after compilation
2020-04-22T20:28:06Z phoe: it translates to undefined behaviour if const memory is ever altered by the program, which may cause a segfault or - worse - not cause a segfault
2020-04-22T20:28:46Z phoe: if a char* pointer is defined as const by C, then your CFFI code may only read from the data this pointer points to - never write to it.
2020-04-22T20:29:08Z _death: no, it doesn't say anything about the memory itself
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2020-04-22T20:29:23Z _death: it only says something about access to that memory via that pointer
2020-04-22T20:29:56Z _death: consider char *p = get_some_string(); const char *q = p;
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2020-04-22T20:30:54Z phoe: oh wait a second
2020-04-22T20:31:10Z phoe: welp, I confused const-declared data with const pointers
2020-04-22T20:35:02Z PuercoPop: in case the answer is it is not important when declaring the c function (defcfun), right?
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2020-04-22T20:35:32Z phoe: yes; CFFI has no concept of C const
2020-04-22T20:35:33Z _death: PuercoPop: right, but the expectation is that you should not modify the memory
2020-04-22T20:35:48Z phoe: it is the user who needs to remember what is const and what is not
2020-04-22T20:36:13Z phoe: or it should be the above-C-API that does not expose writers for things that were defined to be const in C
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2020-04-22T20:40:09Z PuercoPop: thanks
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2020-04-22T21:05:39Z verisimilitude: I've a quick question regarding CLOS: Isn't COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS usable as a caching method to avoid extra dispatching; assuming this is a correct understanding, where could I perhaps find a nice example of using it for this, or otherwise see how to use its result well?
2020-04-22T21:07:21Z Bike: caching how? what do you mean?
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2020-04-22T21:08:21Z verisimilitude: I want to compute the applicable methods once and then repeatedly use the result, since it should always be valid to do so, if possible.
2020-04-22T21:09:16Z phoe: verisimilitude: I think many CLOS implementations perform that optimization
2020-04-22T21:09:56Z phoe: the result of c-a-m for a given set of classes may be cached as long as no methods are added/removed; doing such invalidates the cache
2020-04-22T21:10:15Z phoe: or rather, a set of specializers - we need to take EQL-specializers into account
2020-04-22T21:10:24Z Bike: compute-applicable-methods gets you a list of methods. the actual behavior of the generic function is called the effective method, and you can get that with mop... kinda.
2020-04-22T21:10:36Z Bike: but yeah, usually the applicable methods aren't computed every call. that would be real expensive.
2020-04-22T21:10:37Z p_l: _death: isn't const a declaration on the value of the pointer, i.e. the address?
2020-04-22T21:11:10Z phoe: p_l: depends on where the const is placed I guess - see https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1143262/what-is-the-difference-between-const-int-const-int-const-and-int-const
2020-04-22T21:11:56Z phoe: CFFI doesn't deal with any of those on its own, it's up to the caller to remember and use these
2020-04-22T21:11:56Z verisimilitude: The main complication I'm facing is actually using the return value of COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS, as I've never needed to do so before and it seems to involve those queer local forms.
2020-04-22T21:12:18Z p_l: phoe: I'll just say *JESUS FUCK*
2020-04-22T21:12:40Z verisimilitude: Why are you needing to deal with C types anyway, p_l?
2020-04-22T21:13:08Z p_l: verisimilitude: not me, it was talked earlier in terms of dealing with CFFI
2020-04-22T21:13:33Z p_l: I'm personally of the opinion that operating systems and shared libraries should have language agnostic IDL specs
2020-04-22T21:13:47Z p_l: so that I can use them from Lisp without worry
2020-04-22T21:14:07Z verisimilitude: Oh, alright; I don't care to deal with CFFI at all, but using Ada has made me aware of how other languages do it much better, but Ada also has this standardized and embedded into its design from the start.
2020-04-22T21:14:34Z verisimilitude: Unfortunately, UNIX won out, but you'd like VMS, from what I've read.
2020-04-22T21:14:46Z phoe: verisimilitude: it seems that on SBCL the results of c-a-m are not cached, only the effective method function is
2020-04-22T21:15:05Z Bike: verisimilitude: you mean call-method and make-method?
2020-04-22T21:15:23Z verisimilitude: Yes, and I believe there's others, Bike.
2020-04-22T21:15:33Z Bike: no, should pretty much just be those...
2020-04-22T21:15:50Z Bike: those are part of the effective method, like i said. they make getting an actual function for the effective method difficult for the programmer.
2020-04-22T21:15:51Z verisimilitude: I could've continued playing with it, but thought I'd just ask here for advice, instead.
2020-04-22T21:16:17Z Bike: mop compute-effective-method
2020-04-22T21:16:17Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-effective-method.html
2020-04-22T21:16:28Z verisimilitude: I'll read this; I appreciate your help, Bike.
2020-04-22T21:16:49Z Bike: mhm. if i had more idea of what your endgoal is i could maybe be more helpful
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2020-04-22T21:17:02Z verisimilitude: Is it necessary to use the MOP to get what I want?
2020-04-22T21:17:15Z Bike: well, i'm not sure precisely what it is that you want.
2020-04-22T21:17:27Z verisimilitude: This relates to a program of mine which is too slow and I want to optimize it.  I'll link to it now.
2020-04-22T21:17:35Z verisimilitude: http://verisimilitudes.net/sha.lisp
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2020-04-22T21:18:37Z Bike: so you don't want blockhash to dispatch in the loop?
2020-04-22T21:18:50Z verisimilitude: I've a HASH generic function which internally uses my BLOCKHASH, which destructively modifies the object it dispatches on, and an obvious optimization is computing BLOCKHASH's dispatch once.
2020-04-22T21:18:55Z verisimilitude: Yes, Bike.
2020-04-22T21:19:33Z verisimilitude: If it's still too slow, I'll bother to use a profiler, but this is an optimization I wanted to do anyway.
2020-04-22T21:20:06Z Bike: You could avoid messing with the mop or anything by instead defining a "blockhasher" generic function, methods of which return a function that carries out the operation.
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2020-04-22T21:20:36Z Bike: i think someone might have had a library for doing what you want, though... let me try to refresh my memory
2020-04-22T21:20:40Z verisimilitude: I've thought of that approach, yes, but was trying to salvage the current design, instead.
2020-04-22T21:20:46Z verisimilitude: You're thinking of Ironclad.
2020-04-22T21:20:57Z Bike: No, a library for this precomputation, I mean
2020-04-22T21:21:23Z verisimilitude: Oh; I wouldn't be interested in using the library, but I suppose I'd be interested in reading it.
2020-04-22T21:21:32Z phoe: Bike: https://heisig.xyz/sealable-metaobjects.pdf ?
2020-04-22T21:21:34Z Bike: https://github.com/marcoheisig/fast-generic-functions this one, maybe?
2020-04-22T21:21:38Z phoe: https://github.com/alex-gutev/static-dispatch ?
2020-04-22T21:21:44Z phoe: oh right, heisig's stuff
2020-04-22T21:22:08Z jackdaniel: inlined-generic-functions by guicho
2020-04-22T21:22:50Z phoe: these are all similar approaches, AFAIK heisig's and alex's stuff builds on guicho's i-g-f
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2020-04-22T21:53:33Z Xach: sha.lisp can't be compiled, and when compiled, it can't run. at least not in sbcl.
2020-04-22T21:53:54Z Xach: i was interested in trying it because i recently made some sha stuff and wanted to compare results, but i can't get it working.
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2020-04-22T22:23:49Z Inline: i'm confused about the clos algorithm for class-precedence-list
2020-04-22T22:23:58Z Inline: hmmmm
2020-04-22T22:24:10Z Bike: what's the confusion
2020-04-22T22:25:26Z Inline: depth-first,left-to-right,up-to-joins, and then the descriptions in the amop with different sortings, my confusion is basically about the splits
2020-04-22T22:26:04Z Inline: so depth-first is depth-first-up-to-splits ?
2020-04-22T22:26:09Z Inline: right ?
2020-04-22T22:26:17Z fe[nl]ix: cgay: you have to manually download asdf and load it in your .sbclrc before loading quicklisp
2020-04-22T22:26:57Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: what is the context there?
2020-04-22T22:28:12Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: using ASDF3 with quicklisp
2020-04-22T22:28:34Z Inline: and saw a graph where it also looks like not left-to-right....
2020-04-22T22:28:36Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: sbcl comes with asdf3, also cgay did not write anything recently (that i can see)
2020-04-22T22:29:36Z fe[nl]ix: at least, handling your own ASDF is my favorite solution because I can upgrade it faster than SBCL does
2020-04-22T22:30:28Z Xach: ok
2020-04-22T22:30:55Z fe[nl]ix: it's definitely true that using the latest SBCL release is sufficient in most cases
2020-04-22T22:31:00Z verisimilitude: I've not had any issue compiling it with ECL, and I don't see why SBCL would have the issue, so will you provide more detail, Xach?
2020-04-22T22:31:23Z Xach: verisimilitude: no, i won't. if you're curious, try it in sbcl.
2020-04-22T22:31:33Z verisimilitude: I try it in SBCL and it works fine.
2020-04-22T22:31:51Z verisimilitude: I'm using SBCL 1.3.7.
2020-04-22T22:34:28Z verisimilitude: I see now there's still an error with a class not yet existing; I'll work on a correction for this, if it's actually an error.
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2020-04-22T23:00:09Z verisimilitude: Dealing with SBCL reminds me of something, though; I was getting a queer macroexpansion error due to a malformed DECLARE, but this wasn't being evaluated, and so it seems this is a flaw.
2020-04-22T23:01:33Z verisimilitude: Now I seem to have corrected the SBCL compilation issue, by giving up on using DEFCONSTANT with my CLOS objects, using DEFVAR instead, but there's something else odd that prevents compilation; I've defined my SHA::F function in a way which could return NIL, but never actually will, and SBCL refuses to compile it due to this, but I won't be changing that function.
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2020-04-22T23:02:05Z fe[nl]ix: cgay: right :D
2020-04-22T23:02:09Z Bike: declarations are messages to the compiler. if the compiler can't interpret them it's a problem regardless of whether that code path is actually executed
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2020-04-22T23:02:37Z verisimilitude: Since I was using MACROEXPAND-1, it should just be treated as a normal list.
2020-04-22T23:02:45Z Bike: as for that f function, looks like you could maybe just declare position to be an (integer 0 (80))
2020-04-22T23:02:50Z verisimilitude: It wasn't actually being executed.
2020-04-22T23:02:56Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: Is cgay writing in this channel?
2020-04-22T23:03:19Z verisimilitude: I could, Bike, but I'm not going to make an unnecessary change just for SBCL.
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2020-04-22T23:03:42Z Bike: um, okay.
2020-04-22T23:03:45Z verisimilitude: You'd agree the issue here is with SBCL, right?
2020-04-22T23:03:58Z verisimilitude: I don't see a reason it shouldn't compile the code.
2020-04-22T23:04:07Z Bike: well, i don't know what you mean by refuse to compile. is it issuing you a type warning?
2020-04-22T23:04:16Z verisimilitude: Perhaps it's SLIME doing this.
2020-04-22T23:04:43Z verisimilitude: Yes, it was just SLIME doing that.
2020-04-22T23:05:05Z Bike: compile-file issuing an error conceptually means failure, still, so i guess that could work
2020-04-22T23:05:17Z verisimilitude: It's just warnings, not failures.
2020-04-22T23:05:27Z verisimilitude: Alright; I'll upload my changes and you can try testing again, if you care to, Xach.
2020-04-22T23:05:45Z Xach: verisimilitude: if i wanted to compute the sha256 value for a file, what is the right thing to run?
2020-04-22T23:05:59Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: yes, he is
2020-04-22T23:06:02Z verisimilitude: (SHA:HASH SHA:256 #p"file")
2020-04-22T23:06:27Z verisimilitude: I'll need a minute to upload this change, though.
2020-04-22T23:06:29Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: It's weird, but I don't see anything he writes either via this account and client or on another account and client.
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2020-04-22T23:06:51Z Xach: Does anyone else see anything cgay writes?
2020-04-22T23:07:41Z verisimilitude: I'm not seeing anytihng from a cgay, and I don't ignore anyone.
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2020-04-22T23:07:47Z fe[nl]ix: is this a ghost movie ?
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2020-04-22T23:07:55Z Xach: maybe?
2020-04-22T23:08:03Z Xach: I wonder if it's a channel or user mode coming into play?
2020-04-22T23:08:30Z Bike: no messages from cgay in any of the three logs.
2020-04-22T23:08:39Z Bike: ...or my client.
2020-04-22T23:08:42Z cgay: Xach: how about now?
2020-04-22T23:08:45Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: do you smell burnt toast or oranges?
2020-04-22T23:08:46Z Xach: hi cgay!
2020-04-22T23:08:56Z cgay: heh. I forgot to identify
2020-04-22T23:08:58Z Xach: cgay: what is happening?
2020-04-22T23:08:58Z edgar-rft: looks as if cgay is fe[nl]ix's imaginative friend, cannot see either
2020-04-22T23:09:03Z Xach: ah
2020-04-22T23:09:21Z Xach: mystery solved, thank you
2020-04-22T23:09:31Z edgar-rft: ah yes, now I see cgay
2020-04-22T23:09:57Z cgay: Xach: well I think I have a somewhat weird situation, which is that my sbcl doesn't have asdf in it, so it's using the old 2.26 (IIRC) asdf in Quicklisp.
2020-04-22T23:10:23Z cgay: and that was confusing for a while, but fe[nl]ix sorted me out.
2020-04-22T23:10:23Z Xach: cgay: ok. fe[nl]ix is right, then. you could copy asdf.lisp over sbcl's version also.
2020-04-22T23:10:33Z Xach: but loading in sbclrc is also fine
2020-04-22T23:11:07Z Xach: err, over quicklisp's version that is
2020-04-22T23:11:39Z cgay: roight...gotcha
2020-04-22T23:12:57Z cgay: Xach: but ... maybe upgrade the version of asdf in quicklisp?  (probably there are reasons why it needs the older version?)
2020-04-22T23:13:19Z Xach: cgay: i'd rather have implementations provide the asdf version that works best for their users.
2020-04-22T23:13:37Z bitmapper: hmm
2020-04-22T23:13:43Z cgay: :thumbsup:
2020-04-22T23:13:49Z bitmapper: i cannot find a copy of allegro cl/lispworks 4.1 for irix
2020-04-22T23:13:56Z Xach: when quicklisp was starting, asdf2 seemed like a strong upgrade from asdf1 and worth pushing out with quicklisp simultaneously.
2020-04-22T23:14:15Z Xach: the asdf3 process has been much less clear cut to me
2020-04-22T23:14:49Z Xach: i am bummed by the confusion it causes when there's no implementation asdf but i haven't settled on a way out of that yet
2020-04-22T23:15:25Z Xach: bitmapper: if i had a nickel for every user coming to #lisp with that complaint...
2020-04-22T23:15:40Z bitmapper: you'd have two?
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2020-04-22T23:16:33Z fe[nl]ix: I'm working on publishing my own SBCL binaries, with minimal patches
2020-04-22T23:16:58Z bitmapper: fe[nl]ix: ?
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2020-04-22T23:17:08Z bitmapper: wait, for irix, or was that poor timing
2020-04-22T23:17:15Z fe[nl]ix: I figured out how to statically link it to libfixposix, and I'll bundle a newer ASDF and possibly Quicklisp too
2020-04-22T23:17:21Z fe[nl]ix: bitmapper: no, on Linux
2020-04-22T23:17:30Z bitmapper: yeah that makes sense lol
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2020-04-22T23:24:04Z Xach: verisimilitude: does (SHA:HASH SHA:256 #p"file") work for you in sbcl?
2020-04-22T23:25:32Z verisimilitude: Well, I'm testing the FASL and now I'm getting another odd error, involving my SHA::COPY-STATUS-STATUS, because an array isn't of an (AND VECTOR (NOT SIMPLE-ARRAY)) type.
2020-04-22T23:25:48Z verisimilitude: So now I'm working on that.
2020-04-22T23:27:32Z verisimilitude: This is happening in multiple implementations, so it was somehow caused by changing the DEFCONSTANT to a DEFVAR.
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2020-04-22T23:28:03Z verisimilitude: ECL has given a better error message I can use, so that's nice.
2020-04-22T23:28:57Z verisimilitude: I see it now, so I'll just need a few more minutes to correct this and upload the changes, Xach.
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2020-04-22T23:44:27Z cgay: So is ESL2020 free now that it's all online or is there some place I can give them $$? Didn't see anything on the website yesterday.
2020-04-22T23:49:57Z Xach: cgay: free - don't know about donating or otherwise paying https://twitter.com/elsconf/status/1249994741455949825
2020-04-22T23:51:08Z cgay: Thanks Xach
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2020-04-23T00:13:19Z verisimilitude: Well, not only does it now work properly when compiled with SBCL, but it's leagues faster, fast enough for practical purposes.  Due to that, I was able to test it on more files and uncovered an additional error I'd overlooked.
2020-04-23T00:13:30Z verisimilitude: It should be fine now, Xach, still at that URL.
2020-04-23T00:14:09Z verisimilitude: If you want to see it as a string, you could call it like this instead:
2020-04-23T00:14:09Z verisimilitude: (SHA:STRING (SHA:HASH SHA:256 #p"file"))
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2020-04-23T01:48:04Z ArthurStrong: Hi all. How 'describe' works? How it pulls a first string in function?
2020-04-23T01:48:27Z Xach: ArthurStrong: that string is called a docstring and it is generally available via the DOCUMENTATION function.
2020-04-23T01:48:45Z Xach: ArthurStrong: what DESCRIBE does is not very strictly specified.
2020-04-23T01:48:54Z Xach: it might show the docstring or it might not
2020-04-23T01:49:09Z ArthurStrong: I meant, if I'm writing toy LISP interpreter. How could I implement it?
2020-04-23T01:49:40Z no-defun-allowed: Attach a documentation string to each function object.
2020-04-23T01:50:00Z ArthurStrong: no-defun-allowed: ah, attach an additional string to a symbol?
2020-04-23T01:50:10Z Xach: ArthurStrong: what language are you writing your toy lisp in?
2020-04-23T01:50:10Z ArthurStrong: no-defun-allowed: and fill it while parsing?
2020-04-23T01:50:16Z ArthurStrong: Xach: pure C
2020-04-23T01:50:17Z no-defun-allowed: I would rather attach it to the function object.
2020-04-23T01:51:18Z no-defun-allowed: ArthurStrong: No, evaluate (lambda (args ...) "documentation string" body ...) to be a function with arguments ARGS, documentation "documentation string" and body BODY.
2020-04-23T01:51:20Z Xach: ArthurStrong: what reference works (aside from #lisp) are you using in your project?
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2020-04-23T01:52:04Z no-defun-allowed: Rule 1 of Lisp interpreting: never preprocess anything in the reader. Everything is evaluated at eval-time (well, except for #.foo, which causes an eval-time in read-time).
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2020-04-23T01:53:46Z ArthurStrong: Is docstring evaluates at each execution or is skipped?
2020-04-23T01:54:19Z Xach oh boy
2020-04-23T01:54:42Z no-defun-allowed: A string, by definition, is self-evaluating.
2020-04-23T01:55:20Z ArthurStrong: Somehow, describe can fetch whatever string evaluates first :)
2020-04-23T01:55:24Z no-defun-allowed: There is no point to evaluating a documentation string.
2020-04-23T01:55:55Z no-defun-allowed: No, the documentation string is separate to the function body. It isn't evaluated.
2020-04-23T01:57:56Z no-defun-allowed: clhs LAMBDA
2020-04-23T01:57:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm
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2020-04-23T01:58:39Z no-defun-allowed: The syntax definition tells us that the documentation is separate to the body of the function.
2020-04-23T01:58:48Z ArthurStrong: OK
2020-04-23T01:58:49Z ArthurStrong: thanks
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2020-04-23T01:59:48Z no-defun-allowed: "lambda lambda-list [[declaration* | documentation]] form*" means it starts with LAMBDA, then there are some (possibly zero) number of declarations and documentation strings (the first of which is the documentation), then there are forms that constitute the body.
2020-04-23T02:00:50Z no-defun-allowed: (Actually, no, if there are multiple documentation strings, "the consequences are unspecified". Picking the first would probably be the least surprising.)
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2020-04-23T03:29:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-23T03:52:51Z Samo_svoj: anyone knows microservices framework for lisp?
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2020-04-23T03:53:47Z loke: Samo_svoj: What would you expect such a framework to provide? I've built such things in the past, and the "framework" was really no mure than a few tens of lines of scaffolding around Hunchentoot.
2020-04-23T03:54:05Z Samo_svoj: ES/CQRS?
2020-04-23T03:54:46Z no-defun-allowed: What do those acronyms mean?
2020-04-23T03:54:52Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Those are design patterns afaik.
2020-04-23T03:55:01Z no-defun-allowed: Also, morning beach
2020-04-23T03:55:21Z Samo_svoj: loke: + good parallel features + graphql capacity + speed comparable to Rust :)
2020-04-23T03:55:48Z Samo_svoj: no-defun-allowed: event sourcing / command-query responsibility segragation
2020-04-23T03:55:51Z Aurora_v_kosmose: That's not generally a feature of microservices as a general thing.
2020-04-23T03:55:58Z no-defun-allowed: But what are they? (And we don't do design patterns in Lisp.)
2020-04-23T03:56:03Z no-defun-allowed: Okay.
2020-04-23T03:57:55Z Samo_svoj: no-defun-allowed: ES = it means that everything you do you have to write in database (db is append-only). After some time you do snapshot and if you restart microservice you do reply.
2020-04-23T03:58:52Z no-defun-allowed: Right, so everything is encoded as a change to something instead of replacement?
2020-04-23T03:59:35Z Samo_svoj: no-defun-allowed: CQRS - it means everything you do from client side has to be propagated through database, recorded, and then activity has to be done back. there is no update table only in web browser, for example.
2020-04-23T04:00:11Z Aurora_v_kosmose: So... blocking transactions.
2020-04-23T04:00:49Z drmeister: How do lispers feel about print-object methods that print objects over multiple lines?
2020-04-23T04:00:49Z Samo_svoj: Aurora_v_kosmose: maybe it is not but this is one highly bespoke microservice framework
2020-04-23T04:01:09Z drmeister: Good?  Bad?  Indifferent?
2020-04-23T04:01:27Z no-defun-allowed: Usually good.
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2020-04-23T04:01:44Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Pretty-printing is good for readability.
2020-04-23T04:01:50Z drmeister: I have some that kinda go on...
2020-04-23T04:01:51Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/T3M1orZM/
2020-04-23T04:02:24Z no-defun-allowed: I can't remember how my define-tuple macro (which does everything) invokes the pretty printer stuff exactly, but it does go on multiple lines.
2020-04-23T04:02:25Z drmeister: Should I be using the pretty printer better?
2020-04-23T04:02:30Z loke: drmeister: I usuallt find it to be a hassle if it's note done well.
2020-04-23T04:02:45Z drmeister: Any advice on doing it well?
2020-04-23T04:03:04Z loke: drmeister: Specifically, I often do stuff like: (format t "foo:~a, bar:~a~%" x y)
2020-04-23T04:03:25Z drmeister: I want to view these in terminals and slime buffers and sldb - you know the drill.
2020-04-23T04:03:51Z no-defun-allowed: (pprint-newline :miser) everything
2020-04-23T04:04:00Z drmeister: Commas and colons after the name?  For shame!
2020-04-23T04:04:04Z drmeister is kidding.
2020-04-23T04:05:51Z drmeister: no-defun-allowed: How do you use (pprint-newline :miser)?  In what context?
2020-04-23T04:08:43Z no-defun-allowed: I invoke it from a pprint-logical-block inside print-unreadable-object: https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/netfarm/-/blob/master/Code/macros.lisp#L75
2020-04-23T04:08:55Z Samo_svoj: as far as I can see Hunchentoot is http/1.1 not 2.0 or 3.0 compliant?
2020-04-23T04:09:23Z no-defun-allowed: That file is ancient as far as I am concerned.
2020-04-23T04:09:35Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, HTTPs 2 and 3 are much harder to implement than 1.1.
2020-04-23T04:11:46Z Aurora_v_kosmose: If it's a hard requirement, FFI-wrapping some lib that provides it may be a usable interim solution.
2020-04-23T04:12:14Z asarch: Bingo! SELECT * FROM student ORDER BY id DESC LIMIT (20-10+1) OFFSET 10; is (ql:quickload :sxql) (select :* (from (:student)) (order-by :id (:desc :id)) (limit (- 20 (+ 10 1))) (offset 10))
2020-04-23T04:12:23Z loke: drmeister: I use that form in log outpit (log4cl)
2020-04-23T04:12:41Z loke: It coul dbe controversial yes :-)
2020-04-23T04:13:42Z no-defun-allowed: In my opinion, HTTP/2 is reasonable, and multiplexing and data pre-fetching are fair play, but additionally having to deal with congestion control with Google's QUIC transport protocol is just peak webshit.
2020-04-23T04:14:31Z Samo_svoj: no-defun-allowed: in mobile world it is not.
2020-04-23T04:15:05Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Eh, 5G will help with that nonsense.
2020-04-23T04:15:46Z Aurora_v_kosmose: But having to implement a secondary protocol on top of http does sound like a much larger workload.
2020-04-23T04:16:02Z loke: Samo_svoj: I usually put haproxy or ngnix in front of Hunchentoot and to TLS termination there. That's where the HTTP/2 is handled.
2020-04-23T04:16:17Z loke: It then calls hunchentoot using HTTP/1.1 on the backend.
2020-04-23T04:16:56Z Samo_svoj: loke: is there a library for session types?
2020-04-23T04:17:06Z loke: What do you mean by session types?
2020-04-23T04:17:12Z no-defun-allowed: To implement a HTTP/3 server, I understand one also has to implement the QUIC protocol; but otherwise there don't seem to be any more changes or advantages from HTTP/2 other than "haha version number is bigger".
2020-04-23T04:18:50Z Samo_svoj: loke: http://simonjf.com/2016/05/28/session-type-implementations.html
2020-04-23T04:19:54Z loke: Samo_svoj: What is the goal you want to achieve? (I'm sorry, but reading that blog post is not something I have time to do right now)
2020-04-23T04:20:22Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Type-checking or just type-dependent behavior? You can do the latter with CLOS.
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2020-04-23T04:22:13Z Samo_svoj: lake: to write performant microservices and to reason about their communication.
2020-04-23T04:25:20Z Samo_svoj: lake: when I say 'performant', I mean 'speed comparable to C'
2020-04-23T04:25:29Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Samo_svoj: https://blog.30dor.com/2014/03/21/performance-and-types-in-lisp/
2020-04-23T04:27:04Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Samo_svoj: You'd represent session types as CLOS classes & optimize methods based what you expect.
2020-04-23T04:31:47Z beach: Aurora_v_kosmose: The term "CLOS class" is meaningless, since all classes in Common Lisp are CLOS classes.
2020-04-23T04:32:31Z Aurora_v_kosmose: beach: Touche. It's redundant.
2020-04-23T04:33:04Z beach: Usually, when people use that term, they mean "standard classes" as in what you get by default when you use DEFCLASS to define one.
2020-04-23T04:33:17Z loke: Samo_svoj: SBCL has performance on the same order of magnitude as C, yes. It can in places be even faster.
2020-04-23T04:33:52Z Aurora_v_kosmose: beach: I was assuming unfamilarity with CL's object system and providing a keyword to lookup.
2020-04-23T04:34:06Z loke: Samo_svoj: I created a template parser that generates native code (it outputs Lisp forms and passes them through COMPILE). I'd argue that that template system is one of the fastest ever created.
2020-04-23T04:36:04Z loke: For sessions, most frameworks simply dynamically nind the session object for the duration of the handler. That makes the code pretty clean. Here's an example in a project I did: https://github.com/lokedhs/potato/blob/master/src/potato/api.lisp#L710
2020-04-23T04:36:17Z loke: REST API methods are defined using DEFINE-API-METHOD
2020-04-23T04:38:26Z no-defun-allowed: I would say it's possible to get (100 - small number)% of the speed of C in small number% of the time with Common Lisp; and there are optimisations that can be done that are just plain impossible with static languages.
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2020-04-23T04:58:49Z beach: Do we have any construct that would alter the result of get-setf-expansion in a non-null lexical environment?
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2020-04-23T05:00:37Z beach: I am asking because get-setf-expansion takes an optional environment argument, and I am wondering whether it is used only to distinguish between the compilation environment and the run-time environment, or whether there can be any information in a lexical environment that can alter the expansion.
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2020-04-23T05:34:02Z phoe: beach: the only thing that comes to my mind is the possibility of local macros
2020-04-23T05:34:14Z phoe: but does GET-SETF-EXPANSION expand macros at all?
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2020-04-23T05:39:37Z phoe: it does seem that it expands macros
2020-04-23T05:39:51Z phoe: therefore it'll need &env for MACROLET-defined ones
2020-04-23T05:39:53Z beach: I see.  Let me check...
2020-04-23T05:42:05Z beach: Where did you see that it expands macros?
2020-04-23T05:42:46Z phoe: beach: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1771#1771
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2020-04-23T05:43:50Z beach: I see.  I meant, where in the standard?
2020-04-23T05:44:32Z phoe: that is the hard pard, I'm reading 5.1.1 now
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2020-04-23T05:46:34Z phoe: clhs 5.1.2.7
2020-04-23T05:46:34Z specbot: Macro Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abg.htm
2020-04-23T05:46:50Z phoe: a macro can be used as a place, which means that passing a macro form to GET-SETF-EXPANSION is valid
2020-04-23T05:47:01Z phoe: which means that a local macro is valid too, and for that, we need &env
2020-04-23T05:47:16Z beach: Excellent!  Thanks!
2020-04-23T05:47:24Z phoe: no problem
2020-04-23T05:49:18Z beach: So if there is both a global setf expander and a macro for a form, the global setf expander is used if I understand things right.
2020-04-23T05:49:29Z beach: I should try an experiment for that.
2020-04-23T05:50:27Z phoe: it seems so
2020-04-23T05:50:39Z phoe: "Such macro expansion is attempted only after exhausting all other possibilities other than expanding into a call to a function named (setf reader)."
2020-04-23T05:50:56Z beach: Yes, that's the one I am trying to understand.
2020-04-23T05:50:59Z phoe: so other options are preferable
2020-04-23T05:51:23Z phoe: if you have a macro FOO, then a setf expander for (SETF FOO) will take precedence over macroexpanding FOO
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2020-04-23T05:52:13Z beach: I think I understand.
2020-04-23T05:52:56Z phoe: like, you can define SETF FOO do perform some actual setting - you can't do that if your FOO expands into e.g. (let ((x 42)) ...)
2020-04-23T05:53:03Z phoe: that's because SETF LET is undefined
2020-04-23T05:53:20Z phoe: and you can work around this by defining a SETF FOO expansion yourself that will make actual sense
2020-04-23T05:55:11Z phoe: macroexpanding a form is SETF's next-to-last resort
2020-04-23T05:55:17Z beach: Yes, I think I get it.
2020-04-23T05:55:19Z phoe: the last resort is funcalling #'(SETF FOO)
2020-04-23T05:55:21Z beach: Thanks again.
2020-04-23T05:55:32Z phoe: no problem
2020-04-23T05:59:34Z beach: So I need to figure out the best way of checking whether some place would result in a setf expasion of funcalling #'(setf <place>).
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2020-04-23T05:59:59Z phoe: I think the place algorithm will give you that
2020-04-23T06:00:18Z phoe: when you exhaust all other options available to you, all that remains is #'(setf foo)
2020-04-23T06:00:38Z beach: But how do I go about exhausting all other options, is my question.
2020-04-23T06:00:42Z phoe: like, you can go through all the options of clhs 5.1.2
2020-04-23T06:01:05Z phoe: is it a varable? is it a function call? is it a VALUES call?... etc..
2020-04-23T06:01:30Z phoe: until you hit
2020-04-23T06:01:33Z phoe: clhs 5.1.2.9
2020-04-23T06:01:33Z specbot: Other Compound Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abi.htm
2020-04-23T06:02:25Z beach: I don't see how that can work.
2020-04-23T06:03:22Z beach: I am supposed to NOT consider macro forms and symbol macros until the very end.
2020-04-23T06:04:12Z phoe: yes - let's assume that you get a symbol to your SETF form
2020-04-23T06:04:36Z phoe: that'll either be a variable, 5.1.2.1, or a symbol macro, 5.1.2.8
2020-04-23T06:04:46Z beach: Right.
2020-04-23T06:05:26Z beach: Then I do the symbol macro first.
2020-04-23T06:05:53Z phoe: correct, but that's also because the two are mutually exclusive
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2020-04-23T06:06:11Z phoe: a symbol can be either bound as a symbol macro or as a variable in the lexical environment
2020-04-23T06:06:20Z beach: Sure.
2020-04-23T06:06:35Z phoe: that leaves SETFing compound forms
2020-04-23T06:06:43Z phoe: if you get a compound form, you can immediately check for standard functions, VALUES, THE, and APPLY - that covers 5.1.2.2-5.1.2.5
2020-04-23T06:06:59Z phoe: for non-standard forms, you check if a setf expansion for it exists - 5.1.2.6
2020-04-23T06:07:11Z phoe: if not, you try to macroexpand it, 5.1.2.7
2020-04-23T06:07:21Z phoe: if not, it's time to #'(setf foo) - 5.1.2.9 applies
2020-04-23T06:07:35Z beach: OK, so how do I check whether a setf expander exists?
2020-04-23T06:07:51Z beach: I guess that is where I use my internal magic.
2020-04-23T06:08:29Z beach: I mean, I can't use get-setf-expansion, because that's the one I am coding up.
2020-04-23T06:08:48Z phoe: sure, you check your internal store for setf expansions
2020-04-23T06:08:50Z phoe: whatever that store is
2020-04-23T06:08:58Z beach: Yes, I think I get it.
2020-04-23T06:09:20Z beach: I'll go off and ponder this and see what happens.
2020-04-23T06:09:35Z beach: I am repeating myself, but thanks again!
2020-04-23T06:09:39Z phoe: sure, please keep me updated on that
2020-04-23T06:09:42Z phoe: it's interesting stuff
2020-04-23T06:09:45Z beach: Will do.
2020-04-23T06:11:10Z phoe: the SBCL comments have a bit of insight on the matter, https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/f91a81120579aeb010383182a8e9607c3bf0ad97/src/code/setf.lisp#L50
2020-04-23T06:12:04Z beach: Yeah, that's helpful.
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2020-04-23T07:22:54Z boeg: Anyone have experience with caveman and mito? I'm not quite sure how to connect the two properly. Is all that needs to be edited found in the db.lisp file, or is there other places where I need to do something so caveman2 is configured properly with mito?
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2020-04-23T08:21:20Z Cymew: It's Fukamachiware, which usually means it's not that well documented, and I get the impression you need to have done web development in ruby to understand what the code is trying to achieve.
2020-04-23T08:21:55Z Cymew: I don't even understand what mito is used for. There seems to be some kind of db support in caveman these days, but maybe you're interested in doing something more complex.
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2020-04-23T08:37:17Z jmercouris: what are monads? can someone explain them in a way I can understand?
2020-04-23T08:37:30Z jmercouris: I've been working with this question since university...
2020-04-23T08:38:10Z jmercouris: is it just a chain of funcall results???
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2020-04-23T08:40:50Z aeth: jmercouris: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3870088/a-monad-is-just-a-monoid-in-the-category-of-endofunctors-whats-the-problem
2020-04-23T08:40:51Z phoe: Lisp is a poor language to use monads in because Lisp has mutable state - see https://marijnhaverbeke.nl/monad.html
2020-04-23T08:41:09Z aeth: jmercouris: It's basically a thing that satisfies algebraic properties
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2020-04-23T08:42:21Z TMA: jmercouris: generally, in order to understand monads you need to understand monads first. people who understand monads lose the ability to explain them to people that dont
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2020-04-23T08:43:20Z phoe: I'll allow myself to post https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Understanding_monads and route the discussion to #lispcafe since it clearly isn't about Lisp (since Lisp doesn't force you to understand monads in order to use the language in a sensible way)
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2020-04-23T08:45:28Z jmercouris: thanks for the links, maybe it will help to read marijn's post
2020-04-23T08:46:10Z pjb: jmercouris: In CL,  method-combinations are monads.
2020-04-23T08:46:13Z phoe: or join #lispcafe
2020-04-23T08:46:41Z jmercouris: I left lispcafe sometime ago, because the discussion was not so friendly at times :-(
2020-04-23T08:47:24Z phoe: you can always escalate to the mods
2020-04-23T08:50:02Z phoe: like, e.g., me
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2020-04-23T08:50:26Z jmercouris: just read the Marijn article
2020-04-23T08:50:34Z jmercouris: very fascinating stuff, I'm glad we don't have that nonsense in CL
2020-04-23T08:50:48Z phoe: we don't need to, since CL allows imperative programming
2020-04-23T08:50:51Z jmercouris: this obsession with "purity" makes things unusable
2020-04-23T08:51:08Z jmercouris: what I like about CL is its pragmatism
2020-04-23T08:51:28Z jmercouris: it is not just a toy language, restricted to academic ivory towers
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2020-04-23T08:51:49Z phoe: neither is Haskell, but that's already off-topic
2020-04-23T08:51:49Z jmercouris: yet it is fully suitable for academic research as well due to some wonderful properties
2020-04-23T08:52:01Z phoe goes back to writing
2020-04-23T08:52:02Z jmercouris: I didn't bring up haskell, that was you :-D
2020-04-23T08:52:10Z jmercouris: I'm just preaching to the choir here :-D
2020-04-23T09:07:29Z pjb: jmercouris: if you need more links about monads:     http://haskell.readscheme.org/monads.html    http://dorophone.blogspot.com/2011/04/deep-emacs-part-1.html    http://dorophone.blogspot.com/2011/05/hyperturtle-monad-makes-pretty-pictures.html
2020-04-23T09:07:29Z pjb:  
2020-04-23T09:07:55Z pjb: jmercouris: notably the deep-emacs page explains monad to emacs lisp programmers, so it might be particularly understandable.
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2020-04-23T10:35:24Z Shinmera: Just a note on yesterday's discussion :) https://shinmera.github.io/dns-client/
2020-04-23T10:35:55Z phoe: holy cow you're fast
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2020-04-23T10:36:23Z jackdaniel: and furious
2020-04-23T10:38:59Z phoe: when Shinmera gets angry he constructs a dns client in a day
2020-04-23T10:39:19Z Shinmera: I ain't even mad
2020-04-23T10:39:57Z phoe: at this rate you gotta get an animal groomer license
2020-04-23T10:40:21Z phoe: or the police might come knocking at your door with questions about all the yaks you have shaved
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2020-04-23T10:46:48Z phoe: I gotta finish being angry myself
2020-04-23T10:47:09Z phoe: my angry is currently at 143 pages and 6 ASDF systems
2020-04-23T10:47:47Z jackdaniel: and what exactly are you angry at? perceived inconsistence between handler-case and handler-bind?
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2020-04-23T10:53:46Z phoe: nope, not really
2020-04-23T10:54:14Z phoe: I was originally angry at the fact that there's no "good" tutorial to the Lisp condition system that shows how to construct it from scratch
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2020-04-23T10:55:07Z phoe: and now I'm angry at the fact that my tutorial turned into a book
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2020-04-23T11:07:11Z Xach: a book is ok
2020-04-23T11:07:43Z _death is concerned, not yet angry, about alexandria :/
2020-04-23T11:08:30Z phoe: _death: which parts exactly?
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2020-04-23T11:11:39Z _death: not sure I want to go into it right now.. maybe it's better to ignore and hope for the best
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2020-04-23T11:13:13Z phoe: the only hopes that are valid for alexandria are hopes that it'll become as ossified as ANSI CL
2020-04-23T11:13:23Z phoe: ;; at least in my opinion
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2020-04-23T11:28:02Z pjb: Shinmera: told you…
2020-04-23T11:28:12Z Shinmera: I didn't doubt you!
2020-04-23T11:30:13Z pjb: DNS-PORT should not be a constant…
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2020-04-23T11:39:56Z Xach feels a quicklisp dist shaping up
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2020-04-23T11:44:11Z Shinmera: !
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2020-04-23T11:55:39Z phoe: yes, you feel something. I must know what you are feeling
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2020-04-23T12:28:42Z Xach: the auspices and omens all tell the same tale
2020-04-23T12:28:55Z Xach: "nothing major is broken and it is almost the end of the month"
2020-04-23T12:29:07Z phoe: quick, time to break something!
2020-04-23T12:31:57Z Xach: don't you dare
2020-04-23T12:32:08Z phoe: okay
2020-04-23T12:40:03Z MichaelRaskin: Hm, looks like some of the disappeared packages are now reuploaded by other people (or at least clx-truetype is…)
2020-04-23T12:42:25Z Bike: beach: I didn't see anyone mention it - in a lexical environment with flet bindings for "f", the global setf expander for "f" doesn't apply
2020-04-23T12:42:55Z beach: Bike: I see.  Thanks.
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2020-04-23T12:43:24Z beach: Very important.
2020-04-23T12:46:59Z Bike: also, if it does end up being a macro form, you have to use macroexpand-1 rather than macroexpand, so that if the thing immediately expanded into has a setf expander, you use that instead of macroexpanding
2020-04-23T12:47:16Z pjb: (defun (setf f) (nv x) (print (list '(setf f) nv x)) x) (flet ((f (x) (print (list 'f x)) x))  (incf (f 2))) #|
2020-04-23T12:47:16Z pjb: (f 2)
2020-04-23T12:47:16Z pjb: ((setf f) 3 2)  --> 2 |#
2020-04-23T12:47:27Z pjb: Bike: why do you say so?
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2020-04-23T12:47:44Z beach: Bike: Another good point, yes.
2020-04-23T12:47:56Z pjb: Bike: nothing is said in clhs about shadowing (setf f) by (flet ((f )) …)!
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2020-04-23T12:48:28Z pjb: (defun (setf f) (nv x) (print (list '(setf f) nv x)) x) (flet ((f (x) (print (list 'f x)) x) ((setf f) (nv x) (print (list '(new setf f) nv x)) x))  (incf (f 2))) #|
2020-04-23T12:48:28Z pjb: (f 2)
2020-04-23T12:48:28Z pjb: ((new setf f) 3 2)  --> 2 |#
2020-04-23T12:48:40Z pjb: if you want to shadow it, you need to bind it in flet yourself!
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2020-04-23T13:02:27Z lieven: 5.1.2.9 seems to be applicable
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2020-04-23T14:44:15Z Bike: Shinmera: by the way, you could define a default single-float-bits and double-float-bits using integer-decode-float, assuming they're supposed to return the IEEE754 formats... it'll work, though it'll be slower than what the implementation can do, and I don't think you can do it the other way precisely
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2020-04-23T14:45:02Z Shinmera: Hmm.
2020-04-23T14:46:12Z Shinmera: Not sure that's a good idea, since you said /assuming/ they return the IEEE formats.
2020-04-23T14:46:29Z Shinmera: So it would require testing per implementation, anyway.
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2020-04-23T14:51:07Z Bike: well, i meant, assuming that's what you want returned. you shoudl be able to tell from standard functions whether a single-float will fit.
2020-04-23T14:51:35Z Bike: like, check float-radix is 2, float-digits is 24 or less for a single, and the exponent is in range.
2020-04-23T14:51:50Z Bike: and if not you can do a not supported error.
2020-04-23T14:52:45Z Bike: there's also a standard feature for ieee754 conformance
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2020-04-23T18:00:59Z anlsh: can anyone see thing?
2020-04-23T18:01:03Z anlsh: this*
2020-04-23T18:01:34Z Bike: hi.
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2020-04-23T18:02:20Z anlsh: oh thank god, I've been trying to figure out the issue with erc for an hour :|
2020-04-23T18:03:13Z anlsh: Turns out I wasn't actually authenticating correctly, which prevented me from being able to see others' messages
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2020-04-23T18:30:58Z phoe: anlsh: I see you, yes
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2020-04-23T18:40:01Z anlsh: I started a small generics implementation, any comments? https://gist.github.com/anlsh/653cb92552063e9d209b6415b1bc01b1
2020-04-23T18:40:03Z jackdaniel: what do I spy, with my little eye? I spy anlsh with my little eye!
2020-04-23T18:41:04Z anlsh: Haha thanks guys, I can see you too :D
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2020-04-23T18:46:55Z asarch: What is #S?
2020-04-23T18:47:14Z asarch: String?
2020-04-23T18:47:16Z jackdaniel: when you kick the dollar sign, you get #S
2020-04-23T18:47:38Z asarch: ?
2020-04-23T18:48:05Z Shinmera: What is the hyperspec
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2020-04-23T18:48:30Z jackdaniel: asarch: you stick here long enough to know what #s is, so either you are trolling us or you are not willing to put any effort to learn
2020-04-23T18:48:40Z jackdaniel: (or to listen)
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2020-04-23T18:49:09Z asarch: Sorry, sorry. I just couldn't find it on my notes
2020-04-23T18:49:35Z axion: Interesting. ironclad has lots of 32, 18, 256, and 512 digest functions, but 64 is mysteriously absent.
2020-04-23T18:49:45Z axion: 18 -> 128
2020-04-23T18:53:25Z asarch: It is not in my notes: https://pasteboard.co/J5b4eCB.jpg
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2020-04-23T18:54:26Z asarch: There is a list on HyperSpec but I can't remember the name (nor the address)
2020-04-23T18:54:30Z anlsh: Looks like you can find it here http://clhs.lisp.se/Front/X_Mast_9.htm
2020-04-23T18:54:45Z jackdaniel: asarch: look up symbols on l1sp.org
2020-04-23T18:54:56Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-04-23T18:55:02Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-)
2020-04-23T18:55:13Z anlsh: Something about structs, but I barely know what structs are so ~\(._._/~
2020-04-23T18:55:36Z anlsh: or rather, how they work in cl
2020-04-23T18:55:56Z jackdaniel: anlsh: structures are instances of a class which metaclass is structure-class
2020-04-23T18:56:09Z jackdaniel: they are simplified version of standard-object instances
2020-04-23T18:56:16Z jackdaniel: (i.e accessors may be inlined)
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2020-04-23T18:56:38Z jackdaniel: but you can't redefine the structure conformingly (unlike a "normal" class)
2020-04-23T18:56:51Z jackdaniel: they are basically a performance hack withdifferent semantics
2020-04-23T18:56:55Z jackdaniel: than defclass
2020-04-23T18:56:58Z anlsh: conformingly?
2020-04-23T18:57:32Z jackdaniel: there is ANSI standard for Common Lisp and common lisp implementations implement it
2020-04-23T18:57:42Z jackdaniel: (like C standard and gcc, clang, msvc etc)
2020-04-23T18:58:14Z jackdaniel: so standard specifies some behavior, but some is left as undefined (i.e implementation is free to do whatever it wants)
2020-04-23T18:58:29Z anlsh: oh, so the spec specifies that you can't redefine structs
2020-04-23T18:58:33Z phoe: yep
2020-04-23T18:58:49Z jackdaniel: no
2020-04-23T18:58:58Z phoe: uh wait
2020-04-23T18:59:01Z phoe: implementations may provide means for doing that (e.g. SBCL does that), but in the general case, the consequences are undefined
2020-04-23T18:59:03Z jackdaniel: spec specifies, that consequences of redefining a struct are not specified
2020-04-23T18:59:37Z jackdaniel: so the implementation may provide some protocol for redefining structures, it may signal a condition, or grow carrots in your nose
2020-04-23T18:59:48Z phoe: the spec specifies that you can't *portably* redefine structs
2020-04-23T19:00:08Z phoe: where "portably" means that if it works on your implementation, yay, but it doesn't have to work on another implementation
2020-04-23T19:00:20Z jackdaniel: phoe: I'm trying to explain that and you repeat what I try to communicate, it is annoying to be honest (very much like interrupting)
2020-04-23T19:00:27Z phoe goes quiet
2020-04-23T19:00:51Z jackdaniel: thank you
2020-04-23T19:04:39Z anlsh: Thanks for the explanation!
2020-04-23T19:05:07Z jackdaniel: sure
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2020-04-23T19:06:51Z jackdaniel: anlsh: are you planning to learn Common Lisp?
2020-04-23T19:07:06Z jackdaniel: or joined to hang around for a while and see if you want to stick with the community?
2020-04-23T19:08:36Z anlsh: I've been looking at in on and off (mostly off) for a year or two now, I've been here before
2020-04-23T19:09:32Z anlsh: I'd still classify myself as a novice though I've been around to know what the more famous resources are (Let over lambda, PCL, On Lisp, etc.)
2020-04-23T19:10:03Z jackdaniel: ah OK, I was about to recommend them :) (to be precise, the second one)
2020-04-23T19:11:48Z anlsh: Yeah PCL was how I started out I like it a lot. I'm working through SICP rn
2020-04-23T19:12:28Z anlsh: The generic system I put up earlier is written mostly so that I could breeze through the relevant parts of ch 2
2020-04-23T19:13:02Z anlsh: hopefully anyways, I'll see if it's good enough shortly
2020-04-23T19:14:07Z jackdaniel: it is worth noting, that paip has been released on the internet recently
2020-04-23T19:14:14Z jackdaniel: minion: tell anlsh about paip
2020-04-23T19:14:14Z minion: anlsh: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2020-04-23T19:14:57Z jackdaniel: just for the reference, it seems that you've already decided about your work schedule
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2020-04-23T19:15:39Z anlsh: I'll probably tackle On Lisp next, but I'll keep it in mind :)
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2020-04-23T19:19:44Z phoe: On Lisp is a book that has a huge part about writing and analyzing all sorts of Lisp macros
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2020-04-23T19:21:55Z bitmapper: why is it so hard to find a copy of allegro/lispworks for irix
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2020-04-23T19:39:09Z phoe: has Common Music ever been cleaned up and ported to ASDF?
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2020-04-23T20:07:52Z pjb: phoe: that would be CM version 2, since CM version 3 has been rewritten in scheme.
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2020-04-23T20:09:07Z pjb: well, in C++ and with a scheme layer.
2020-04-23T20:09:46Z pjb: phoe: in commonmusic/branches/cm2/src there's an asdf.lisp, so I'd say yes.
2020-04-23T20:10:40Z pjb: and commonmusic/branches/cm2/cm.asd
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2020-04-23T20:12:05Z pjb: originally, https://commonmusic.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/commonmusic/branches/cm2/cm.asd
2020-04-23T20:13:24Z phoe: pjb: thanks.
2020-04-23T20:14:18Z Xach: bitmapper: have you asked franz/lispworks ltd?
2020-04-23T20:14:35Z bitmapper: franz doesn't have the ability to make new licences anymore
2020-04-23T20:16:18Z phoe: so you're effectively searching for abandonware
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2020-04-23T20:20:05Z Xach: bitmapper: out of curiosity, what is the project that involves allegro cl or lispworks for irix?
2020-04-23T20:20:13Z bitmapper: nothing
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2020-04-23T20:20:29Z bitmapper: i just have an octane sitting in my room doing nothing, and i'm stuck inside and bored
2020-04-23T20:20:39Z bitmapper: cmucl is broken
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2020-04-23T21:30:37Z jeosol: Good morning guys
2020-04-23T21:30:55Z phoe: hey
2020-04-23T21:31:34Z jeosol: hi phoe
2020-04-23T21:31:52Z jeosol: I wanted to quickly confirm something, I get my lambdalist mixed up sometimes, my code is acting up now
2020-04-23T21:32:02Z jeosol: specifically with CLOS
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2020-04-23T21:33:59Z jeosol: I want to declare method e.g., (defmethod run ((opt optimizer) &key ..) ()) but I want to be able to pass different values depending on object I have as that first argument. The defgeneric does not need to be spec out, does?
2020-04-23T21:34:31Z Bike: it's kind of hard to parse your sentences. The defgeneric's lambda list cannot have specializations, if that's what you mean.
2020-04-23T21:34:32Z jeosol: I meant pass additional parameters to the function for different objects
2020-04-23T21:34:36Z Bike: Or are you talking about the different keyword parameters?
2020-04-23T21:34:44Z jeosol: I am sorry, about that
2020-04-23T21:34:57Z jeosol: yeah, I am referring to different keyword parameters
2020-04-23T21:36:35Z Bike: You can give the different methods different keyword parameters without writing them in the defgeneric. The set of allowed keywords is defined by the methods that are actually used for the call.
2020-04-23T21:37:02Z Bike: clhs 7.6.5
2020-04-23T21:37:02Z specbot: Keyword Arguments in Generic Functions and Methods: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fe.htm
2020-04-23T21:37:05Z Bike: that and 7.6.4.
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2020-04-23T21:41:30Z jeosol: Ok. that resolves it. I was referring to the keyword part
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2020-04-23T22:28:50Z verisimilitude: That's interesting, Shinmera, as I've also planned a DNS client, although I've made little progress on programming it, because I've not yet read all of the IETF RFCs for DNS; mine will only operate on messages, doing no actual sending, so it will be standard Common Lisp.  I've given the parsing of the actual messages decent thought and wanted to see if you've stumbled across an idea I'd for nicely doing so, but this doesn't seem to be
2020-04-23T22:28:50Z verisimilitude: the case, by my glance.
2020-04-23T22:29:32Z verisimilitude: It seems to me your DECODE-HOST will fail on malicious DNS names which are compressed with cycles; is this a correct understanding, Shinmera?
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2020-04-23T23:05:55Z Josh_2: How do I convert "97.35" to a number?
2020-04-23T23:07:16Z Bike: read-from-string. i think there are maybe parse number libraries around...
2020-04-23T23:07:37Z Bike: https://github.com/sharplispers/parse-number
2020-04-23T23:09:11Z Josh_2: Thanks
2020-04-23T23:15:32Z aeth: the laziest way to implement something like that would be to read until the . and then read after the . and then give the part after the . a denominator based on the substring length after the . and then convert that into a double or single float
2020-04-23T23:16:15Z aeth: A more elaborate way can read the . each time digit by digit in a loop, shifting one over each time.
2020-04-23T23:16:50Z aeth: that's using digit-char-p
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2020-04-23T23:51:35Z asarch: "SETQ" <- "Set qualifier" or "Set quoted object"?
2020-04-23T23:53:08Z Bike: set quoted, i think
2020-04-23T23:53:27Z no-defun-allowed: Definitely set quoted.
2020-04-23T23:53:33Z Bike: (setq x y) = (set 'x y), if x is special
2020-04-23T23:53:38Z asarch: Thank you!
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2020-04-24T01:16:20Z |3b|: am i missing anything here, or is this an ecl bug? https://gist.github.com/3b/151f9b3bd2c982c2c1374fd75005e0b3
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2020-04-24T01:16:57Z |3b|: (and if someone has abcl installed, could you try it there and see which it gives? )
2020-04-24T01:17:18Z no-defun-allowed: I think it is a bug.
2020-04-24T01:20:33Z no-defun-allowed: ABCL also does that, but only after compiling FOO
2020-04-24T01:22:43Z |3b|: ok, thanks, guess i get to file some bugs
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2020-04-24T01:27:13Z Oladon: Hrm. How can I export an object's accessor functions along with the object? When I try exporting the names of the accessors and using one, it of course says that the function is undefined...
2020-04-24T01:27:29Z no-defun-allowed: By exporting the symbols that name the accessors.
2020-04-24T01:27:51Z no-defun-allowed: Packages, and thus exporting, work on symbols, not on bindings (for better or worse).
2020-04-24T01:28:52Z Oladon: Is there no way to do it without specifying every accessor? I suppose I could just get in the habit of using slot-value everywhere, but... :/
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2020-04-24T01:29:50Z |3b|: slot-names are symbols just like function names, and handled exactly the same in packages
2020-04-24T01:30:10Z |3b|: so however you are using slot names should work for accessor names too, if slot-value works
2020-04-24T01:30:57Z |3b|: in slime (and presumably sly) C-c x exports the symbol under cursor
2020-04-24T01:31:19Z |3b|: which makes explicitly exporting a bunch of slot-names or accessors relatively easy
2020-04-24T01:31:29Z Oladon: Ooh, useful shortcut, thanks.
2020-04-24T01:31:47Z |3b|: actually, i guess there is slime-export-class too
2020-04-24T01:32:07Z Oladon: Whoa, it even adds it to my defpackage. So fancy...
2020-04-24T01:32:33Z |3b|: both in slime-package-fu contrib if you don't have that loaded already
2020-04-24T01:33:07Z Oladon: Hrm. What's going to happen with exporting if I have the same slot name on two different classes?
2020-04-24T01:33:18Z Oladon: Presumably they're methods?
2020-04-24T01:33:31Z |3b|: names are symbols, symbols are what gets exported
2020-04-24T01:33:56Z |3b|: packages don't care about any bindings named by a particular symbol, whether it is variable, function, slot names, types, whatever
2020-04-24T01:35:25Z no-defun-allowed: You would have to export slot names to get SLOT-VALUE to work, and people would not like you if you published code that used a lot of SLOT-VALUE.
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2020-04-24T01:35:26Z |3b|: and methods are a property of a generic function, so no matter how you call a generic function (by name imported from another package, by package-qualified name, directly by function object) all methods of that GF are always there
2020-04-24T01:35:49Z Oladon: Hmm... okay, so here's a question. I've exported #:created-at, but attempting to call that accessor says function is undefined. Others, like #:name, work fine.
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2020-04-24T01:36:12Z |3b|: is the code visible anywhere?
2020-04-24T01:36:28Z no-defun-allowed: Is the definition of that class preceded by an appropriate IN-PACKAGE form?
2020-04-24T01:36:33Z Oladon coughs
2020-04-24T01:36:37Z Oladon: Nevermind, user error...
2020-04-24T01:37:01Z Oladon: Kindly ignore the questions my cat types on my keyboard while I'm not looking. :)
2020-04-24T01:37:09Z Oladon: Er, dog. I don't have a cat.
2020-04-24T01:37:28Z Oladon: Cool -- thank you both for your help :)
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2020-04-24T02:29:05Z aeth: Does CL do everything that the POSIX shell does? With the right library, could I replace my terminal's shell with, say, /usr/bin/sbcl instead?
2020-04-24T02:29:47Z aeth: I know there's uiop:launch-program as well as several alternatives that some people prefer
2020-04-24T02:31:56Z aeth: There are some things that might be trickier, though, like >, >>, <, |, etc.
2020-04-24T02:32:16Z aeth: I'm also not sure if you're allowed to just turn a REPL into a shell.
2020-04-24T02:32:39Z Oladon: I feel like I saw a Lisp shell on HN recently
2020-04-24T02:33:19Z aeth: well, a few have happened, most notably Scheme shell, which is its own Scheme implementation
2020-04-24T02:33:54Z aeth: Emacs also has an eshell, but it's not very feature-complete compared to running, say, zsh or bash inside Emacs (and there's at least two ways to do *that*, giving Emacs at least 3 shells built-in)
2020-04-24T02:34:03Z Oladon: yeah
2020-04-24T02:34:58Z aeth: iirc eshell can't run in-terminal apps like htop, mc, quite a few IRC clients, etc., but one of the two Emacs terminals runs those fine
2020-04-24T02:35:09Z aeth: but I'm not sure if that's a shell limitation or an Emacs limitation
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2020-04-24T02:46:14Z Bike: the emacs "terminal" is unable to handle curses stuff, i guess.
2020-04-24T02:47:58Z no-defun-allowed: M-x term does proper terminal emulation, no?
2020-04-24T02:48:25Z no-defun-allowed: irssi and htop look like they work in that.
2020-04-24T02:48:42Z Bike: ooh, yeah. nice.
2020-04-24T02:49:33Z Bike: but now emacs keys don't work so well... whoops
2020-04-24T02:51:03Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, the terminal eats most of the keys. I usually click the "char" in (Term: char run) to switch it to line input in a graphical Emacs session, do Emacs things, then switch it back.
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2020-04-24T03:00:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-04-24T03:00:47Z Oladon: Morning beach!
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2020-04-24T04:03:50Z pjb: aeth: you are confusing terminals with shells.
2020-04-24T04:04:20Z pjb: aeth: there's clash (clisp shell). https://clisp.sourceforge.io/clash.html
2020-04-24T04:05:52Z pjb: aeth: specifically, Common Lisp does NOT have all the features a POSIX shell has.  For example, Common Lisp doesn't have ways to fork processes, or pipes.  But implementations usually have enough extensions so that their REPL allow to do the equivalent of POSIX shells.
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2020-04-24T04:07:27Z pjb: verisimilitude: good architecture. I've done the same for my implementation of the telnet protocol.
2020-04-24T04:08:11Z pjb: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/common-lisp/telnet
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2020-04-24T04:35:10Z aeth: pjb: well, Emacs kind of confuses terminals with shells, at least with eshell
2020-04-24T04:35:38Z aeth: still, I'm not sure if a CL REPL has the ability to enter into curses apps like htop
2020-04-24T04:35:46Z aeth: that's pretty important for a shell
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2020-04-24T04:55:30Z Fare: pjb: UIOP provides a portable-enough way to spawn processes on Common Lisp
2020-04-24T04:59:46Z pjb: Fare: not on Common Lisp. on #+(or abcl ccl clisp ecl sbcl …).
2020-04-24T05:00:37Z pjb: aeth: you're wrong and confused.  Try to use htop on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XLZ4Z8LpEE
2020-04-24T05:01:08Z pjb: aeth: or even on the very modern: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ul-f3hPJQM
2020-04-24T05:02:41Z pjb: aeth: and early video terminals emulated those teletypes, so even if you have a video terminals, there's no guarantee that you can move around the screen and use htop!
2020-04-24T05:04:19Z buffergn0me: video terminal applications are antithetical to the only good idea in Unix shells, because the applications do not take input on stdin and do not produce output on stdout
2020-04-24T05:05:07Z pjb: exactly.  This is why M-x shell works so well.
2020-04-24T05:05:59Z pjb: and you can always do:  xterm -display :0.0 -e htop &  in emacs shell…
2020-04-24T05:06:35Z buffergn0me: eshell does the equivalent of that, with Emacs term-mode
2020-04-24T05:07:24Z buffergn0me: Are there any terminal emulators written in Common Lisp? Lisp Machines had VT emulators, but I have not seen anything for CL
2020-04-24T05:10:19Z beach: buffergn0me: It sounds like you found yourself a project.
2020-04-24T05:10:20Z pjb: buffergn0me: perhaps in Mezzano?
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2020-04-24T05:14:49Z buffergn0me: beach: It is a good project! I am already doing a terrible job as maintainer of 5 CL Free Software projects, no more projects for me :(
2020-04-24T05:16:51Z beach: I see.
2020-04-24T05:16:53Z beach: Oh well.
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2020-04-24T05:28:38Z Fare: buffergn0me, only 5? ha!
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2020-04-24T05:41:00Z no-defun-allowed: Depends on the size of the projects?
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2020-04-24T06:43:20Z phoe: hellooo
2020-04-24T06:43:31Z beach: Hello phoe.
2020-04-24T06:43:33Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: and on their actual usage
2020-04-24T06:43:37Z phoe: good morning beach
2020-04-24T06:45:05Z no-defun-allowed: phoe: Indeed, and good morning.
2020-04-24T06:45:45Z phoe: actually regarding https://gist.github.com/3b/151f9b3bd2c982c2c1374fd75005e0b3
2020-04-24T06:46:14Z phoe: if SET-B is inlined, is the reference to B inside it shadowable?
2020-04-24T06:46:38Z no-defun-allowed: That would be the question, yes.
2020-04-24T06:47:37Z phoe: no, wait a second - the binding should *not* be shadowable
2020-04-24T06:48:03Z phoe: the lexical closure inside SET-B is closed over the outer binding
2020-04-24T06:48:15Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think it should be; INLINE shouldn't change the semantics?
2020-04-24T06:48:19Z phoe: so if we create an inner lexical binding, this should not affect the closure
2020-04-24T06:48:29Z phoe: yes - the compiler is always free to ignore DECLARE INLINE
2020-04-24T06:48:30Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Absolutely right.
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2020-04-24T06:48:58Z phoe: so that seems to be a bug in the last case
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2020-04-24T06:55:25Z jackdaniel: are you recycling bug reported by 3b?
2020-04-24T06:55:48Z phoe: not recycling, I'm quoting it
2020-04-24T06:56:17Z phoe: it wasn't immediately obvious to me where the issue was
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2020-04-24T09:44:00Z boeg: Anyone here have experience with caveman2 and mito? What would I need to change to setup caveman2 to use mito instead of the database support that's built in?
2020-04-24T09:49:39Z phoe: boeg: maybe #lispweb can help
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2020-04-24T10:01:00Z ebrasca: Hi , how to ignore some errors and continue execution?
2020-04-24T10:01:07Z phoe: clhs ignore-errors
2020-04-24T10:01:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_ignore.htm
2020-04-24T10:01:27Z phoe: that's likely not what you want though, since that'll perform a hard transfer of control and return NIL on an error
2020-04-24T10:01:46Z phoe: if the errors are correctable, you can use the available restarts to continue
2020-04-24T10:02:03Z phoe: if the errors are not correctable, you're in bigger trouble
2020-04-24T10:03:39Z phoe: so the concrete question is: *what* errors are you getting and what do you mean by continuing execution?
2020-04-24T10:04:21Z beach: (defun proper-list-p (list) (declare (optimize (safety 3))) (numberp (ignore-errors (list-length list))))
2020-04-24T10:04:27Z ebrasca: Somo file not found , Simple-File-Error.
2020-04-24T10:04:37Z beach: That's one very good use of IGNORE-ERRORS.
2020-04-24T10:04:48Z jackdaniel: funnily enough ccl, abcl and ecl all have a release in a very short period of time
2020-04-24T10:05:28Z jackdaniel: (I'm not mentioning sbcl because it has regular ~monthly releases)
2020-04-24T10:06:54Z phoe: it's spring time, lisp flowers are blooming
2020-04-24T10:09:29Z boeg: phoe: yeah, maybe, ill give it a try, it seems rather vacant though
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2020-04-24T10:11:30Z phoe: in that case, I'd file issues at the original github pages; fukamachiware is very hard to find documentation for and sometimes even harder to understand due to how it's structured internally.
2020-04-24T10:11:41Z jmercouris: find-if on a hash table? without having to do like alexandria:hash-table-values or whatever it is
2020-04-24T10:11:55Z jmercouris: or find
2020-04-24T10:12:11Z jmercouris: I spent a whole day trying to understand clack
2020-04-24T10:12:23Z jmercouris: so much indirection :-D
2020-04-24T10:12:27Z beach: jmercouris: A hash table is not a sequence.
2020-04-24T10:12:38Z beach: clhs find
2020-04-24T10:12:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm
2020-04-24T10:12:40Z phoe: jmercouris: find-if on a hash table? wait, why
2020-04-24T10:12:55Z phoe: do you want to iterate through all values of a hash table? or all keys?
2020-04-24T10:12:57Z jmercouris: I want to check the existence of a value, not a key
2020-04-24T10:13:03Z phoe: maphash
2020-04-24T10:13:12Z jmercouris: I don't want to maphash
2020-04-24T10:13:14Z jmercouris: I want find
2020-04-24T10:13:20Z jmercouris: no equivalent?
2020-04-24T10:13:31Z phoe: FIND accepts sequences, and as beach said, hashtables are no sequences
2020-04-24T10:13:38Z jmercouris: I know they are not :'(
2020-04-24T10:13:45Z jmercouris: which is why I said that bit about hash-table-values
2020-04-24T10:13:49Z phoe: you can use loop with its hashtable syntax
2020-04-24T10:14:04Z phoe: (loop for key being the hash-key of ht using (hash-value value) ...)
2020-04-24T10:14:05Z jmercouris: I could, indeed
2020-04-24T10:14:10Z phoe: that's equivalent to maphash
2020-04-24T10:14:13Z beach: phoe: Just value.
2020-04-24T10:14:16Z phoe: but with loopy syntax
2020-04-24T10:14:17Z phoe: beach: thanks
2020-04-24T10:14:36Z jackdaniel: maintain two hash tables key->val and val->key, then do gethash on the latter and check the second value
2020-04-24T10:14:51Z jmercouris: do we have a composite data structure like in java?
2020-04-24T10:14:54Z jackdaniel: of course that works for a limited number of predicates
2020-04-24T10:14:55Z jmercouris: linked hash table or something
2020-04-24T10:15:06Z jmercouris: I'm trying to remember the name...
2020-04-24T10:15:37Z phoe: if you mean https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/util/LinkedHashMap.html then nope, you'll need to implement it yourself
2020-04-24T10:15:53Z phoe: for standard hash tables, iteration order is unspecified.
2020-04-24T10:15:58Z jmercouris: that is what I mean
2020-04-24T10:16:04Z jmercouris: such a useful data structure
2020-04-24T10:16:10Z White_Flame: jmercouris: FIND-IF is an iteration of sequence values.  MAPHASH is an iteration of values (and keys) of a hashtable.
2020-04-24T10:16:31Z White_Flame: just need 1 more step to actually do the same thing
2020-04-24T10:16:43Z jmercouris: 1
2020-04-24T10:16:46Z jmercouris: yes
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2020-04-24T10:17:27Z aeth: the biggest thing Java or C++ has over CL is a bunch of built-in collections
2020-04-24T10:17:32Z aeth: and people call CL a big language.
2020-04-24T10:17:44Z jmercouris: the collections are really good though :-)
2020-04-24T10:17:50Z phoe: jmercouris: I remember that shka was working on something in that matter
2020-04-24T10:17:56Z beach: jmercouris: It's a one-liner: (loop for val being each hash-value of table thereis (eq val <what-you-are-looking-for>))
2020-04-24T10:17:59Z phoe: you might want to ping him sometime in the future
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2020-04-24T10:18:14Z jmercouris: beach: I know, I've already iimplemented it
2020-04-24T10:18:18Z jmercouris: I"m just looking for something nicer
2020-04-24T10:18:18Z beach: Or some other equality predicate.
2020-04-24T10:18:23Z jmercouris: maybe I am wasting my time
2020-04-24T10:18:28Z jmercouris: optimizing such a trivial thing
2020-04-24T10:18:38Z jackdaniel: optimizing?
2020-04-24T10:18:41Z phoe: how big is your hash table going to be?
2020-04-24T10:18:46Z White_Flame: well, none of these are going to be optimized, except the dual hash table
2020-04-24T10:18:55Z White_Flame: and "nicer" is often opposite of "optmizied"
2020-04-24T10:19:01Z jmercouris: :-D, true
2020-04-24T10:19:41Z White_Flame: and even with the val->key reverse table, that still doesn't help a FIND-IF equivalent hit the correct value to test either
2020-04-24T10:19:42Z jackdaniel: if you look for a function find-hashval-if, then write it, then you'll have your "nice version"
2020-04-24T10:21:19Z White_Flame: I also don't see how a sorted treemap would help, unless you're not using a general FIND-IF style predicate, but rather only a particular predicate that would tend to find results earlier in the sort list
2020-04-24T10:22:10Z jmercouris: if you process the data beforehand and have a guranateed order of the linked list, you can avoid many tests and traversals
2020-04-24T10:22:22Z White_Flame: not with a generalized predicate
2020-04-24T10:22:25Z White_Flame: a la FIND-IF
2020-04-24T10:22:33Z jmercouris: I am using find
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2020-04-24T10:23:14Z White_Flame: ah, FIND-IF is what you mentioned first, I believe
2020-04-24T10:23:17Z jmercouris: yes
2020-04-24T10:23:29Z White_Flame: so yeah, a reverse val->key hashtable, or just val->T one
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2020-04-24T11:18:36Z jackdaniel: ECL 20.4.24 released \o/ I'm going to grab my cider :) https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/posts/ECL-20424-release.html
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2020-04-24T11:20:25Z phoe: :D
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2020-04-24T11:24:27Z heisig: jackdaniel: Congratulations!
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2020-04-24T11:25:04Z jackdaniel: thank you, I hope I didn't push a wrong branch or something :)
2020-04-24T11:25:04Z kpoeck: congratulations jackdaniel
2020-04-24T11:25:32Z heisig: You really deserve your cider.  And, hopefully, some rest and recreation.
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2020-04-24T11:26:10Z phoe: jackdaniel: even if, that's correctable; making a stable ECL release after such a long time of maintenance and so many bugfixes is nonetheless a great achievement
2020-04-24T11:26:27Z phoe: so, yes, enjoy your cider, you deserve it
2020-04-24T11:26:28Z jackdaniel: sure, that's why I'm grabbing my cider
2020-04-24T11:26:32Z phoe: :D
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2020-04-24T12:24:43Z Xach: uh oh
2020-04-24T12:24:50Z Xach: my texinfo is not digging ecl docs or something
2020-04-24T12:25:08Z _death: new ecl, cool.. but there are some breaking changes apparently
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2020-04-24T12:25:27Z Xach: world record for most simultaneous ecl builds in 24 hours
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2020-04-24T12:28:52Z beach: phoe: For SICL conditions, I am thinking of defining a class CONDITION-CLASS parallel to STANDARD-CLASS and FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-CLASS, and to make CONDITION a subclass of STANDARD-OBJECT.
2020-04-24T12:29:09Z beach: Then (DEFINE-CONDITION <name> (<supers>) ...) would expand to (DEFCLASS <name> (<supers>) ... (:METACLASS CONDITION-CLASS)).
2020-04-24T12:29:12Z beach: And instances if CONDITION-CLASS, i.e., the condition types would automatically include CONDITION as a superclass if there are no <supers>, much the way instances of STANDARD-CLASS automatically include STANDARD-OBJECT.
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2020-04-24T12:30:22Z phoe: beach: I see'
2020-04-24T12:30:36Z beach: Does that sound reasonable to you?
2020-04-24T12:31:23Z phoe: It does sound okay, sure
2020-04-24T12:31:40Z phoe: it should also allow you to specify :REPORT directly for DEFCLASS
2020-04-24T12:32:31Z beach: Right.  I suppose that would expand to a DEFMETHOD form.
2020-04-24T12:32:57Z phoe: I currently do DEFMETHOD PRINT-OBJECT specialized on that condition class
2020-04-24T12:33:12Z beach: That sounds right.
2020-04-24T12:33:15Z phoe: or, if no report is specified, FIND-METHOD and REMOVE-METHOD
2020-04-24T12:33:22Z phoe: (that is to handle redefinitions)
2020-04-24T12:33:32Z beach: Makes sense.
2020-04-24T12:33:51Z Bike: mop generic-function-name
2020-04-24T12:33:51Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-name.html
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2020-04-24T12:35:26Z _death: I'm guessing for calls to ecl_def_c_function_va the new narg_fixed should be -1
2020-04-24T12:36:00Z _death: or not..
2020-04-24T12:36:24Z Bike: is there any guarantee that the generic-function-name and so on are actual slots? they don't have defined slot names or locations, do they?
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2020-04-24T12:36:52Z jackdaniel: Xach: we depend on texinfo 6.x (which is not compatible with texinfo 4.x)
2020-04-24T12:37:26Z Xach: jackdaniel: ok
2020-04-24T12:37:29Z Xach: i have old
2020-04-24T12:37:30Z phoe: Bike: I don't think there's any concrete slot defined
2020-04-24T12:38:04Z phoe: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-name-standard-generic-function.html needs to return the name, and that's all; no more implementation details are specified
2020-04-24T12:38:34Z phoe: if I read this correctly, this allows one to specify new methods that return class names differently; I utilize this functionality in my list-named-class system
2020-04-24T12:38:39Z Bike: right. i see. so if the implementation gives normal functions names and stuff through some not-clos-accessible mechanism that space ought to be usable for the generic function properties as well
2020-04-24T12:38:54Z jackdaniel: _death: narg_fixed should denote number of fixed arguments (i.e if you have two required arguments, it should be 2)
2020-04-24T12:40:22Z phoe: Bike: yes, I think this is correct
2020-04-24T12:41:02Z _death: jackdaniel: ouch.. so now I need to count required args for each function (that's a lot of functions...).. commit message indicates this change was due to arm64 calling convention, but passing 0 seems to work on x64
2020-04-24T12:41:19Z phoe: Bike: in particular, note that there is generic-function-name but also #'(setf generic-function-name)
2020-04-24T12:41:51Z phoe: so wherever the implementation does store the g-f-name, it also needs to be prepared to set new names in the same spot
2020-04-24T12:41:52Z jackdaniel: _death: correct, it will work everywhere but on iOS
2020-04-24T12:42:59Z Bike: phoe: yeah.
2020-04-24T12:43:41Z _death: I will add a todo and be done with it ;)
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2020-04-24T12:49:02Z phoe: beach: are your STANDARD-CLASS and CONDITION-CLASS going to be compatible? no real use case, just curious
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2020-04-24T12:52:05Z beach: No, not compatible.  But since conditions are standard objects, that compatibility should be enough in most cases.
2020-04-24T12:53:03Z phoe: yes, I see
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2020-04-24T12:55:37Z Nilby: drakma:http-request "https://news.ycombinator.com/" | plump:parse | (plump:get-elements-by-tag-name *input* "a") | opick (_ (equalp "StoryLink" (plump:attribute _ "class"))) |+ plump:text
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2020-04-24T12:58:21Z phoe: Nilby: ummm
2020-04-24T12:58:28Z phoe: nice
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2020-04-24T13:04:24Z Nilby: An example of how cool plump is and how CL is better than Powershell (of course)
2020-04-24T13:04:24Z Shinmera: (lquery:$ (initialize (drakma:http-request ..)) "a.StoryLink" (text))
2020-04-24T13:05:08Z Nilby: Thanks! Even better!
2020-04-24T13:05:57Z Nilby ... installing lquery 
2020-04-24T13:06:05Z beach: phoe: Also, I have a common superclass of STANDARD-CLASS and FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-CLASS which will also be a superclass of CONDITION-CLASS, so methods can be defined on that common superclass.
2020-04-24T13:07:48Z jackdaniel: pcl does that too (for standard-class and funcallable-standard-class that is)
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2020-04-24T13:08:16Z beach: Ah, good to know.  It must be reasonable then. :)
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2020-04-24T13:21:12Z Bike: it has std-class as a super of standard- and funcallable-standard-, and then slot-class as a super of std-class, condition-class, and structure-class
2020-04-24T13:21:19Z Bike: there's also pcl-class. it seems complicated.
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2020-04-24T13:25:34Z ralt: Nilby: what are you using to support those pipes?
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2020-04-24T13:44:39Z eta: can you rebind functions lexically?
2020-04-24T13:44:46Z phoe: eta: yes, just not all ones
2020-04-24T13:44:53Z eta: phoe, which ones can't be rebound?
2020-04-24T13:45:08Z eta: basically I want to call a function after replacing READ-SEQUENCE with a non-broken implementation
2020-04-24T13:45:16Z eta: (but only for that function)
2020-04-24T13:45:28Z jmercouris: eta: use a LET
2020-04-24T13:45:33Z eta: oh, that works?
2020-04-24T13:45:34Z eta: nifty
2020-04-24T13:45:48Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: what do you mean by that?
2020-04-24T13:45:56Z phoe: jmercouris: LET doesn't bind in the function namespace
2020-04-24T13:46:05Z phoe: to rebind #'foo you must use FLET or LABELS
2020-04-24T13:46:07Z jmercouris: oh I didn't read READ-SEQUENCE
2020-04-24T13:46:08Z eta: yeah, LET doesn't work
2020-04-24T13:46:09Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: not giving advice is strictly better than giving a misleading advice
2020-04-24T13:46:32Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: everyone makes mistakes
2020-04-24T13:46:33Z jackdaniel: eta: functions in CL package are locked, so you can't shadow them conformingly
2020-04-24T13:46:46Z eta: jackdaniel, can you unlock them?
2020-04-24T13:46:58Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: you gave misleading advice about shared libraries and g-object introspection, I didn't call you out on it
2020-04-24T13:47:07Z jackdaniel: non-portably -- yes. most implementations have a way to unlock package
2020-04-24T13:47:13Z jmercouris: but since you are acting like you don't give incorrect advice on occassion, here I am pointing it out
2020-04-24T13:47:13Z Bike: don't get into a fight thanks
2020-04-24T13:47:19Z eta: hmm, LABELS didn't seem to work
2020-04-24T13:47:24Z Bike: also, if you're binding read-sequence and then calling a function, the body of that function won't see a lexical definition anyway
2020-04-24T13:47:29Z phoe: eta: give us an example
2020-04-24T13:47:32Z Bike: on the other hand, read-sequence is customizable with gray streams
2020-04-24T13:47:39Z phoe: if you're trying to rebind #'cl:read-sequence then that's not going to be portable
2020-04-24T13:47:40Z eta: phoe, okay
2020-04-24T13:47:43Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean by read-sequence being broken, though
2020-04-24T13:47:52Z eta: (defun test ()
2020-04-24T13:47:52Z eta:            (format t "test~%"))
2020-04-24T13:47:52Z eta: (defun uses-test () (test))
2020-04-24T13:47:53Z eta: (labels ((test () t)) (uses-test))
2020-04-24T13:47:58Z Bike: yeah no
2020-04-24T13:47:59Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: I did give you a lead, not incorrect advice, quite a difference
2020-04-24T13:48:01Z Bike: labels is lexical binding
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2020-04-24T13:48:07Z eta: mm, that's what I suspected
2020-04-24T13:48:25Z eta: the other way to make this work would be if WEBSOCKET-DRIVER would fix their code >_<
2020-04-24T13:48:46Z eta: oh, I know
2020-04-24T13:48:48Z phoe: eta: fork, fix, pullrequest
2020-04-24T13:48:50Z eta: I could use HANDLER-BIND
2020-04-24T13:48:54Z eta: yeah, that'll work
2020-04-24T13:49:01Z Bike: this sounds sketchy.
2020-04-24T13:49:12Z eta: Bike, so look at https://github.com/fukamachi/websocket-driver/blob/2d20d81f5257111426873b9879795827e4625b83/src/ws/base.lisp#L216
2020-04-24T13:49:23Z eta: this stupid "if error then retry" thing causes it to infinite loop if the stream is closed
2020-04-24T13:49:32Z Bike: ah. i see.
2020-04-24T13:49:35Z phoe: this code is fucked up
2020-04-24T13:49:44Z eta: phoe, you can say that again
2020-04-24T13:49:45Z Bike: yeah, that sounds like this library is broken.
2020-04-24T13:49:47Z phoe: you should never handle all errors this way
2020-04-24T13:50:10Z Bike: and you can't intercept it abofe...
2020-04-24T13:50:17Z Bike: above
2020-04-24T13:50:23Z eta: Bike, my current workaround is BT:DESTROY-THREAD
2020-04-24T13:50:26Z eta: but it doesn't always work
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2020-04-24T13:50:46Z Bike: yeah, i mean, this is pretty broken. any workaround will only be a stopgap at best
2020-04-24T13:51:00Z eta: the maintainer doesn't seem that responsive though
2020-04-24T13:51:53Z eta: so I guess I could use a HANDLER-BIND to catch an error being thrown?
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2020-04-24T13:51:55Z phoe: you have encountered the famous fukamachiware™ - that's why I suggested that you should fork and fix it yourself.
2020-04-24T13:52:13Z eta: phoe, lol
2020-04-24T13:52:16Z Bike: i mean, if you want to fix the code, the fix is to replace 'error' with specifically whatever error an I/O timeout is
2020-04-24T13:52:16Z phoe: eta: https://github.com/fukamachi/websocket-driver/issues/51 - you could try commenting on this issue
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2020-04-24T13:52:27Z Bike: there's no real fix to this that doesn't involve changing the code, i think
2020-04-24T13:52:28Z phoe: HANDLER-BIND will not work, because the inner handler will execute first and cause a loop.
2020-04-24T13:52:32Z phoe: yes, what Bike said.
2020-04-24T13:52:33Z eta: phoe, look at https://github.com/fukamachi/websocket-driver/issues/49
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2020-04-24T13:52:59Z _death: you could define your own stream, perhaps :d
2020-04-24T13:53:03Z eta wonders if there are other non-broken websocket libraries
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2020-04-24T13:53:15Z eta: also fukamachi's EVENT-EMITTER is a fun one
2020-04-24T13:53:54Z jackdaniel: eta: I've used hunchensocket and it worked very well for me
2020-04-24T13:54:03Z eta: jackdaniel, that's a server-side thing though
2020-04-24T13:54:07Z eta: I need a client lib
2020-04-24T13:54:20Z jackdaniel: aha
2020-04-24T13:54:21Z _death: eta: just fork it and patch
2020-04-24T13:54:25Z phoe: ^
2020-04-24T13:54:32Z eta: hm, okay
2020-04-24T13:54:38Z eta: but how do I get ASDF to use my version off github
2020-04-24T13:54:42Z eta: (slash other git host)
2020-04-24T13:54:46Z phoe: eta: clone it into local-projects
2020-04-24T13:54:47Z jmercouris: put in ~/common-lisp
2020-04-24T13:54:54Z eta: okay, lemme rephrase
2020-04-24T13:54:56Z _death: maybe the author is more responsive to pull requests than issues
2020-04-24T13:54:56Z jmercouris: also delete quicklisp version just to be safe
2020-04-24T13:55:05Z eta: I'm writing a library though
2020-04-24T13:55:10Z phoe: jmercouris: no need to delete the quicklisp version
2020-04-24T13:55:12Z eta: so how do I get other users of my library to use my patched version
2020-04-24T13:55:14Z jmercouris: your library can use systems on your machine
2020-04-24T13:55:23Z jmercouris: eta: tell them to use your forked version
2020-04-24T13:55:26Z eta: ah
2020-04-24T13:55:33Z phoe: eta: either fork it and submit to Quicklisp on a different name, or convince Xach to switch quicklisp to use your patched version
2020-04-24T13:55:39Z eta: phoe, makes sense
2020-04-24T13:55:45Z phoe: ...at which point, you'll effectively become the maintainer of that package
2020-04-24T13:55:49Z eta: oh no!
2020-04-24T13:55:53Z eta: :P
2020-04-24T13:56:05Z phoe: which would be good - I have heard many people complain about fukamachi's original version of ws-driver
2020-04-24T13:56:09Z ralt: I've been hit by this library as well... https://github.com/fukamachi/websocket-driver/issues/38
2020-04-24T13:56:15Z phoe: ha
2020-04-24T13:56:30Z eta: ralt, oh yeah, this library is full of fun
2020-04-24T13:56:43Z eta: ralt, the best part is if you try and use EVENT-EMITTER in a multi-threaded environment
2020-04-24T13:57:01Z eta: in which case, if things start throwing errors, it's anybody's guess as to which thread the errors appear on
2020-04-24T13:57:07Z TMA: eta: you can also monkey-patch that (i.e. put the (defun websocket-driver.ws.base::read-websocket-frame (...) ...) somewhere in your library
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2020-04-24T13:57:15Z jmercouris: you can have bordeaux print which thread it is
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2020-04-24T13:58:34Z eta: jmercouris, true
2020-04-24T13:58:40Z eta: I mean I managed to deal with it, it's just funny
2020-04-24T14:00:11Z jmercouris: :-)
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2020-04-24T14:05:36Z eta: phoe, oh man, the fukamachiware(tm) is real
2020-04-24T14:05:50Z eta: SEND specifies a (&key callback) parameter
2020-04-24T14:05:59Z eta: ...which is just FUNCALLed immediately after sending
2020-04-24T14:06:17Z eta: it's like, why would you write (send ...) (do-other-thing) when you can write (send ... :callback #'do-other-thing)
2020-04-24T14:06:22Z eta: (the send isn't asynchronous at all)
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2020-04-24T14:08:51Z _death: as event-emitter suggests, it's apeing javascript in interface, if not in implementation
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2020-04-24T14:22:39Z Bike: does anybody use change-class on funcallable instances? is that something that can be done? MOP says you can't change-class on generic functions...
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2020-04-24T14:23:14Z Shinmera: I have yet to use funcallable instances at all :)
2020-04-24T14:23:50Z Bike: actually, yeah, just examples of using them at all might be good. i do have a few examples myself, but.
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2020-04-24T14:35:17Z phoe: Bike: not all funcallable instances are generic functions
2020-04-24T14:35:26Z Bike: i am aware.
2020-04-24T14:35:31Z phoe: but, huh, still a good question
2020-04-24T14:35:40Z phoe: mop change-class
2020-04-24T14:35:40Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for change-class.
2020-04-24T14:35:46Z phoe: clhs change-class
2020-04-24T14:35:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_chg_cl.htm
2020-04-24T14:36:26Z phoe: the standard defines nothing about methods on funcallable-standard-class
2020-04-24T14:36:28Z phoe: neither does the mop
2020-04-24T14:36:36Z phoe: so it's effectively unspecified, it seems?
2020-04-24T14:40:10Z Bike: well that would be mean.
2020-04-24T14:41:15Z phoe: Bike: well, regarding all the slot stuff and such, it could work effectively the same as for standard-class
2020-04-24T14:41:24Z phoe: the big question is what happens to the funcallable instance function
2020-04-24T14:41:43Z phoe: there is no protocol whatsoever for updating it, or even querying for it once it is set
2020-04-24T14:41:57Z phoe: just #'set-funcallable-instance-function, that's all
2020-04-24T14:42:04Z Bike: why would it need to be queried?
2020-04-24T14:42:18Z Bike: i understand why there's no query function, anyway
2020-04-24T14:42:33Z phoe: so do I, the funcallable instance then "becomes" the function
2020-04-24T14:42:34Z Bike: it's not really a slot
2020-04-24T14:43:15Z phoe: I can imagine where change-classing a f-in might break it
2020-04-24T14:43:26Z phoe: I guess these cases could be taken care of in u-i-f-d-c
2020-04-24T14:43:41Z beach: In SICL, there are two slots, the entry point and the static environment.  I imagine others do the same.
2020-04-24T14:43:59Z Bike: right, so you can't get the actual function again.
2020-04-24T14:44:07Z beach: Right.
2020-04-24T14:44:30Z Bike: i guess hypothetically there could be an initarg for the function, but without a slot shared-initialize is funny
2020-04-24T14:45:48Z Bike: though incidentally, if there are two slots, is set-funcallable-instance-function non atomic?
2020-04-24T14:47:29Z beach: Good question.  It is not, because they reside in the rack, so the rack has to be copied and installed with CAS.
2020-04-24T14:47:47Z Bike: oh, they're in the rack. alright.
2020-04-24T14:48:09Z Bike: ...er, so isn't it atomic, then? or does set-funcallable-instance-function not copy/CAS the rack.
2020-04-24T14:48:56Z beach: It is not "non atomic".
2020-04-24T14:49:05Z beach: So it is atomic.
2020-04-24T14:49:13Z Bike: right.
2020-04-24T14:49:25Z Bike: oh, i see. double negatives. my one weaknes.s
2020-04-24T14:49:52Z beach: It would be an exaggeration to say that I am not unconfused now.
2020-04-24T14:50:21Z Bike: >:/
2020-04-24T14:50:55Z beach: I am sorry.  I should not have answered your question so literally.
2020-04-24T14:51:04Z beach: Tired after a long day of work, I guess.
2020-04-24T14:52:32Z jmercouris: any performance difference between (funcall 'print "lol") and (funcall #'print "lol") ?
2020-04-24T14:52:53Z phoe: jmercouris: not for the symbol cl:format
2020-04-24T14:53:09Z jmercouris: how about for ANY symbol
2020-04-24T14:53:11Z phoe: uh I mean print
2020-04-24T14:53:19Z jmercouris: I figured as much
2020-04-24T14:53:22Z phoe: the implementation can safely assume that the function #'cl:print will never change and therefore open code that
2020-04-24T14:53:23Z beach: jmercouris: The first one is typically slower.
2020-04-24T14:53:36Z jmercouris: how many more operations, typically?
2020-04-24T14:53:39Z phoe: for other symbols, that doesn't need to be the case; the function cell of the symbol needs to be looked up
2020-04-24T14:53:47Z jmercouris: what is lisp doing in #' vs '
2020-04-24T14:53:56Z beach: clhs fdefinition
2020-04-24T14:53:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm
2020-04-24T14:53:57Z phoe: #' returns a function object, ' returns a symbol
2020-04-24T14:54:03Z jmercouris: like does having the function object really make it THAT much faster?
2020-04-24T14:54:08Z jmercouris: I know, I know
2020-04-24T14:54:12Z phoe: jmercouris: measure it yourself
2020-04-24T14:54:15Z jmercouris: OK
2020-04-24T14:54:29Z beach: jmercouris: You need to fetch the function object, given the symbol.  That's the difference.
2020-04-24T14:54:33Z phoe: it's hard to answer questions as general and as implementation- and code-dependent as that one
2020-04-24T14:54:44Z jmercouris: yeah
2020-04-24T14:55:04Z Bike: well, it's generally true that it'll be slower with the symbol, though.
2020-04-24T14:55:06Z beach: jmercouris: They also mean different things when the name is lexically defined.
2020-04-24T14:55:30Z ralt: interestingly, sbcl's disassemble shows the same, i.e. the symbol is already dereferenced to the function object
2020-04-24T14:55:33Z jmercouris: I'm purely concerend with the performance difference
2020-04-24T14:55:53Z beach: ralt: It can do that only for functions that can't be redefined.
2020-04-24T14:56:08Z jmercouris: I was about to say what happens when you redefine
2020-04-24T14:56:10Z jmercouris: how would SBCL know
2020-04-24T14:56:20Z beach: You are not allowed to redefine system functions.
2020-04-24T14:56:38Z jmercouris: 1
2020-04-24T14:56:48Z beach: I mean "standard functions".
2020-04-24T14:56:50Z _death: there is a difference in performance, so code that repeatedly calls functions and takes a function designator should usually use something like alexandria:ensure-function
2020-04-24T14:57:39Z ralt: nope https://pastebin.com/N8KXZJCw
2020-04-24T14:58:08Z beach: ralt: Also, definitions within a compilation unit can be assumed not to change.
2020-04-24T14:58:55Z ralt: what is the exact definition of a compilation unit? typically a package?
2020-04-24T14:59:04Z beach: No, a file, typically.
2020-04-24T14:59:21Z beach: But if the implementation takes advantage of that, there can be some mysterious effects when the user wants to redefine a single function with (say) C-c C-c in slime.
2020-04-24T14:59:32Z ralt: ok, I tried this with the function of another system (so definitely not same compilation unit), and it did the same
2020-04-24T14:59:35Z jmercouris: so you could have a performance benefit by concatenating all of your code into a large file?
2020-04-24T14:59:54Z ralt: I can't actually figure out a way to not have this behavior
2020-04-24T15:00:37Z beach: clhs with-compilation-unit
2020-04-24T15:00:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_comp.htm
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2020-04-24T15:00:43Z phoe: jmercouris: this, and block compilation
2020-04-24T15:00:56Z beach: jmercouris: You should be able to achieve the same thing without changing your files.
2020-04-24T15:00:58Z phoe: see https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/fby38u/block_compilation_fresh_in_sbcl_202_misitimostenti/
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2020-04-24T15:01:04Z _death: ralt: for example, declaim inline
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2020-04-24T15:01:34Z phoe: but that one is only viable if you're willing to sacrifice all of your code structure and redefinability for the sake of pushing 101% possible and available performance out of your code
2020-04-24T15:02:03Z jmercouris: you might as well drop down to assembler yourself then
2020-04-24T15:02:13Z phoe: not necessarily, but still, it's a pain
2020-04-24T15:02:19Z beach: And people who do that are typically the same as the ones who have no clue about algorithms and data structures.
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2020-04-24T15:03:00Z beach: So they gain a few percent this way, and lose an order of magnitude the other way.
2020-04-24T15:03:03Z phoe: profile first, optimize fourth. think and discuss what and how needs to be optimized second.
2020-04-24T15:03:13Z phoe: and possibly have a good night's sleep third, whatever floats your boat
2020-04-24T15:03:18Z beach: Profiling won't find bad data structures.
2020-04-24T15:04:20Z phoe: correct
2020-04-24T15:10:36Z jmercouris: how can I take over the debugger and have my own interface for restarts?
2020-04-24T15:10:40Z _death: ralt: sorry, not declaim inline.. consider for example (defun bar (fn) (loop repeat 1000000000 do (funcall fn))) (bar #'list) takes around 4.14 seconds here.. with ensure-function in the beginning, it takes around 3.55 seconds.. the number of iterations is large, but for other implementations or platforms could be smaller
2020-04-24T15:11:25Z phoe: jmercouris: depends
2020-04-24T15:11:59Z phoe: do you want to have a complete takeover, or do you want the user to allow to use e.g. BREAK to land in the standard debugger
2020-04-24T15:12:07Z phoe: in the second case, bind *debugger-hook*
2020-04-24T15:12:15Z phoe: in the first case, use trivial-custom-debugger
2020-04-24T15:12:18Z jmercouris: phoe: I want to show a buffer with the error, and the available restarts
2020-04-24T15:12:39Z phoe: if it's just from calling #'error or #'invoke-debuger, then *debugger-hook* will be okay for that
2020-04-24T15:12:42Z jmercouris: phoe: and allow the user to select a restart and view the trace etc
2020-04-24T15:12:52Z phoe: *debugger-hook* + dissect
2020-04-24T15:13:04Z jmercouris: what is dissect?
2020-04-24T15:13:06Z phoe: you basically seem to want to implement your own custom debugger
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2020-04-24T15:13:19Z phoe: dissect is a portability library for accessing stack information
2020-04-24T15:13:29Z jmercouris: I see
2020-04-24T15:13:38Z phoe: including the stacktrace, locals, blah blah
2020-04-24T15:13:41Z jmercouris: I want to implement my own custom debugger, yes
2020-04-24T15:13:52Z phoe: start with *debugger-hook* then
2020-04-24T15:13:58Z jmercouris: OK
2020-04-24T15:14:01Z phoe: and only go for trivial-custom-debugger if you need more than that
2020-04-24T15:14:02Z jmercouris: Thank you
2020-04-24T15:14:15Z phoe: there's a chapter of my WIP book that deals exactly with this issue
2020-04-24T15:14:16Z jmercouris: Will do
2020-04-24T15:14:26Z jmercouris: ah
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2020-04-24T15:47:56Z Bike: i've dug into this and i'm a bit confused by the class hierarchy now. clos defines no methods specialized on generic-function except for one on ensure-generic-function. so, for example, if you have a generic-function that's not standard, generic-function-name has no defined behavior.
2020-04-24T15:48:02Z Bike: er, "mop defines"
2020-04-24T15:48:50Z phoe: Bike: wait a second
2020-04-24T15:49:07Z phoe: yes, I think that is correct
2020-04-24T15:49:35Z phoe: if you define a non-standard concrete class that subclasses generic-function, you are supposed to implement the required MOP behaviour yourself
2020-04-24T15:49:38Z Bike: i guess if you want to define your own non-standard generic-function you basically need to implement its entire behavior yourself.
2020-04-24T15:49:41Z Bike: yeah.
2020-04-24T15:49:42Z phoe: yes
2020-04-24T15:49:57Z phoe: same thing with non-standard-objects and non-standard-classes
2020-04-24T15:50:05Z phoe: the burden is all on you in such case
2020-04-24T15:50:14Z Bike: not sure i've ever seen that
2020-04-24T15:50:15Z phoe: I remember talking about it with beach a few years ago
2020-04-24T15:50:18Z Bike: i mean, mop isn't super widely used anyway
2020-04-24T15:50:25Z phoe: Bike: neither have I - it's possible, but not feasible
2020-04-24T15:52:03Z phoe: in other news: at 166 A4 pages, 3 published libraries and 6 ASDF systems in total, my upcoming book, Common Lisp Condition System, has reached its first beta version.
2020-04-24T15:52:07Z beach: The spirit of the MOP is definitely that the base class should be free for the user to subclass and create behavior for.
2020-04-24T15:52:11Z phoe: so I guess it's good for reviews now.
2020-04-24T15:52:20Z beach: Great!
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2020-04-24T15:55:41Z bor0: I am working on deriving the Quine for Lisp: ((lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x))) '(lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x)))). my question is rather big so I was curious if I should even ask it here. I guess I can start with: has anyone been playing around with Quines in Lisp?
2020-04-24T15:56:01Z phoe: bor0: deriving? what do you mean?
2020-04-24T15:56:15Z phoe: there's a few of them at https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Quine#Common_Lisp
2020-04-24T15:57:06Z bor0: so I am reading through Smullyan's "The Gödelian Puzzle Book". he defines _diagonalization_ for an expression P in which x occurs (D(P(x)), to be the substitution of the variable x with the quoted expression P(x)
2020-04-24T15:57:26Z bor0: I am certain from this diagonalization definition we can follow and build that same Quine, but I am having some issues with that
2020-04-24T15:57:37Z bor0: (actually I am not that certain anymore!)
2020-04-24T15:58:05Z bor0: does it make sense so far? should I continue?
2020-04-24T15:58:29Z Bike: sure, i guess
2020-04-24T15:58:45Z Bike: if you look at that rosetta code page, your quine is basically the third one without the backquote syntax
2020-04-24T15:58:58Z bor0: here is what I have. I am using Racket but I don't think it matters much in this case
2020-04-24T15:58:59Z bor0: (define p (lambda (x) (list (list 'Boro 'is 'reading) x)))
2020-04-24T15:58:59Z bor0: (define d (lambda (p x) (p (list 'quote (p x)))))
2020-04-24T15:59:20Z bor0: `(p 'a-book)` will return `'((Boro is reading) a-book)` and `(d p 'a-book)` will return `'((Boro is reading) '((Boro is reading) a-book))`, as expected
2020-04-24T15:59:36Z bor0: I thought it would be possible to get from that definition of `d` to that actual Quine
2020-04-24T16:00:29Z bor0: that is, I don't see a way to go from `(lambda (p x) (p (list 'quote (p x))))` to the definition of that Quine. so it is either my definition of `d` that is wrong, or this is not possible
2020-04-24T16:00:43Z bor0: by the definition of that Quine I roughly mean `(lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x)))`
2020-04-24T16:00:52Z bor0: (which is the first, un-quoted part of the lambda)
2020-04-24T16:02:09Z Bike: i guess you probably need to diagonize an expression that uses the diagonalization operator?
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2020-04-24T16:05:40Z bor0: yeah, that's true. that is how he builds self-reference in the book (applying diagonalization to diagonalization). I was thinking if I pattern match the `d` lambda `(lambda (p x) (p (list 'quote (p x))))` with the lambda of that Quine `(lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x)))` I would find the connection but it is not possible to match them. e.g. I can't replace `p` with `identity` or anything
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2020-04-24T16:07:47Z bor0: I guess the question is, does that (or any Lisp) Quine follow directly from that  diagonalization definition? or the only common thing those have is just self-reference
2020-04-24T16:09:07Z Bike: i couldn't guess how the quines were derived.
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2020-04-24T16:42:10Z pjb: bor0: the smallest quine in the lisp REPL is: 0
2020-04-24T16:42:21Z pjb: bor0: another one is: ""
2020-04-24T16:42:34Z bor0: I avoid those because they are trivial. also, using IO is trivial and not fun :)
2020-04-24T16:42:49Z Nilby: I feel like the Lisp quine makes the minimal substitution machinery explicit, and so demonstrates elegantly the fundamental minimal essence of computation.
2020-04-24T16:43:20Z pjb: So your definition is: (defun quinep (x) (equal x (eval x))) (quinep '((lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x))) '(lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x))))) #| --> t |#
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2020-04-24T16:43:48Z Nilby: Unfortunately, even though we know a Lisp-2 is more practical, Lisp-1 quines are more elegant.
2020-04-24T16:44:28Z pjb:  (quinep '(#1=(lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x))) '#1#)) #| --> t |#
2020-04-24T16:44:36Z Nilby: You have to funcall this:((lambda (lambda) `(,lambda ',lambda)) '(lambda (lambda) `(,lambda ',lambda)))
2020-04-24T16:45:06Z pjb:  (quinep '(#1=(lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '#1#)) #| --> t |#
2020-04-24T16:46:11Z bor0: I was looking for a relation between that Lisp Quine and that diagonalization definition. I think the missing link in those two is Lisp's evaluation strategy. the Quine is simply `(list x (d x))` (which is really just `(list x (list 'quote x))`) where `d x` is the diagonalization of `x`. why do we need a list of both `x` and its diagonalization? because evaluating with its quoted version will return the same list
2020-04-24T16:46:51Z pjb: bor0: you may also use read-from-string and format.
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2020-04-24T16:49:16Z LdBeth: Good morning
2020-04-24T16:49:42Z bor0: I have summarized everything here, in case anyone is interested in the whole story (for some reason): https://bor0.wordpress.com/2020/04/24/deriving-a-quine-in-a-lisp/
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2020-04-24T16:51:30Z Nilby: Are there any non-trivial quines that don't use quote?
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2020-04-24T16:53:04Z bor0: I think it all depends on the evaluation strategy. for example PHP will output any text outside <?php ?> as plain-text, so that allows for some neat Quines in it
2020-04-24T16:54:44Z bor0: Quines by themselves are probably useless, but thinking about them uncovers a lot of things: self-reference (infinite loops, etc), evaluation strategies.  (just a random thought)
2020-04-24T16:54:52Z Nilby: (let ((let '`(let ((let ',let)) ,let))) `(let ((let ',let)) ,let))
2020-04-24T16:55:18Z phoe: nice one
2020-04-24T16:55:20Z bor0: that's `quote` in disguise though, right?
2020-04-24T16:55:26Z phoe: sure it is, yes
2020-04-24T16:55:27Z Nilby: Quines are quite effective at for driving me crazy.
2020-04-24T16:55:37Z antoszka: nice quine
2020-04-24T16:56:31Z bor0: Nilby, I know there is "print the contents of (read current file)" or "1" or "0" etc, but those are considered "cheating". I don't know if there is a universal definition of what cheating in a Quine means
2020-04-24T16:56:56Z bor0: but I would imagine it a hard problem without the usage of `quote`. probably with some crazy macros?
2020-04-24T16:57:26Z phoe: using side effects other than returning values (for languages which can do that) or printing to stdout (for languages which don't naturally return values, like C)
2020-04-24T16:58:13Z pjb: bor0: (quinep (eval '0)) #| --> t |#
2020-04-24T16:58:19Z pjb: no cheating at all.
2020-04-24T16:58:27Z bor0: `eval` and `quote`!
2020-04-24T16:58:28Z pjb: 0 is a lisp expression = a lisp program.
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2020-04-24T16:58:40Z pjb: Oops, sorry: (quinep '0) #| --> t |#
2020-04-24T16:58:57Z pjb: this is by your definition of a quine.
2020-04-24T16:59:00Z bor0: I know :) I just said it is considered cheating somewhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quine_(computing)#%22Cheating%22_quines
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2020-04-24T17:01:33Z Nilby: Just 0 seems like a boring cheating quine, but I think - is a fairly weirdly cheating quine.
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2020-04-24T17:02:00Z pjb: Nilby: note that in C, 0 is not a quine. It's a compilation error.
2020-04-24T17:02:16Z pjb: Therefore I think it's not cheating, but an interesting property of the language, that 0 is a lisp quine.
2020-04-24T17:03:12Z Nilby: Minimal C quines do seem to share something with the normal Lisp quine though.
2020-04-24T17:03:15Z Nilby: main(){char *c="main(){char *c=%c%s%c;printf(c,34,c,34);}";printf(c,34,c,34);}
2020-04-24T17:03:27Z bor0: I agree. even Wikipedia starts with "A quine is a computer program which takes no input and produces a copy of its own source code as its only output." so that definition is perfectly valid for the program "0"
2020-04-24T17:03:35Z Nilby: has some structural similarity to
2020-04-24T17:03:37Z Nilby: ((lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x))) '(lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x))))
2020-04-24T17:03:39Z phoe: pjb: so is the empty program
2020-04-24T17:03:42Z pjb: Nilby: note this is dead code. You need to work outside of C to run it!
2020-04-24T17:03:50Z phoe: note that "echo "" | sbcl --script" has no input and produces no output
2020-04-24T17:04:05Z Nilby: C is dead to me for sure. :)
2020-04-24T17:04:17Z phoe: ahh the ancient scrolls of the dead C
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2020-04-24T17:05:24Z Nilby: Maybe it's not so dead in Zeta-C or Valceitus?
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2020-04-24T18:08:03Z froggey: demonstrating mezzano's support for qemu's opengl passthrough device: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dfawGj9Lok
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2020-04-24T18:09:59Z phoe: wait a second, is this rendered on the host and then sent back to mezzano for displaying?
2020-04-24T18:10:06Z phoe: how exactly does the passthrough work?
2020-04-24T18:12:25Z froggey: more or less. the guest & the host can exchange data (buffers, textures, etc), and the guest can send commands for the host to execute
2020-04-24T18:13:09Z phoe: awesome
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2020-04-24T18:13:43Z froggey: there I've sent some textures and a vertex buffer to the host, plus commands to render into another texture, then that texture is retrieved from the host and displayed as a normal window
2020-04-24T18:18:17Z Nilby: That's very impressive! That could be the fastest CL OS rendering in history.
2020-04-24T18:19:34Z froggey: well, genera did it on real hardware, so I've still got a bit of a way to go
2020-04-24T18:19:59Z p_l: Nilby: minimal obfuscated C quine had been for over 10 years a 0 lentgth file
2020-04-24T18:21:07Z Nilby: But I can't imagine Genera could match the speed of todays graphics hardware.
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2020-04-24T18:23:15Z Nilby: p_l: I'm not sure what file you mean?
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2020-04-24T18:25:41Z p_l: Nilby: when it comes to shortest C quine
2020-04-24T18:26:02Z Nilby: Ah, I see.
2020-04-24T18:26:05Z p_l: International Obfuscated C code contest had to impose a minimal length rule for quines
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2020-04-24T18:42:43Z markasoftware: Nilby: is that the shortest known c quine?
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2020-04-24T18:47:12Z Nilby: I'm not sure. It was just sitting around in my quine file.
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2020-04-24T18:48:28Z Nilby: It's a least a pretty short one. It get's warnings, but at least it still compiles.
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2020-04-24T18:52:50Z patlv: hello all, can't get around an error with clsql when running: (clsql:query "select * from mytable"), getting the error: "[Microsoft][ODBC Driver 17 for SQL Server]Invalid Descriptor Index", while if I list the columns, all good
2020-04-24T18:53:06Z Nilby: It's interesting in that 34 is basicly quote in lisp.
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2020-04-24T18:54:22Z markasoftware: well it's ascii quote
2020-04-24T18:54:31Z markasoftware: oh i see what you mean
2020-04-24T18:54:51Z Nilby: right, llike saying 34 is quoting quote "
2020-04-24T18:58:44Z phoe: Xach: what is kmr-git? I cannot see it defined in quicklisp-projects
2020-04-24T19:02:15Z Nilby: it's in quicklisp-controller/upstream-misc.lisp : http://git.kpe.io. I had to look it up the other day too.
2020-04-24T19:02:37Z Nilby: phoe: ^^
2020-04-24T19:05:49Z phoe: Nilby: thanks.
2020-04-24T19:06:30Z phoe: patlv: I have no idea if clsql is maintained; the last commit on that repo is from four years ago.
2020-04-24T19:06:33Z phoe: http://git.kpe.io/?p=clsql.git;a=summary
2020-04-24T19:07:14Z patlv: phoe: didn't know it was an issue with lisp :)
2020-04-24T19:11:16Z patlv: is there anything more recent that is used to replace it?
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2020-04-24T19:20:35Z phoe: patlv: for mssql? no idea
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2020-04-24T19:31:06Z patlv: phoe: yes, mssql is a requirement for this project, gonna try plain-odbc, has been updated more recently. Thanks!
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2020-04-24T19:40:57Z Grue`: patlv: there's also mito
2020-04-24T19:42:22Z patlv: Grue`: doesn't do mssql it seems
2020-04-24T19:42:39Z Grue`: ah sorry I read it as mysql
2020-04-24T19:44:09Z patlv: Grue`: no worries, thanks anyway
2020-04-24T19:45:13Z patlv: plain-odbc seems to be working fine so far, no huge issue popping out so far
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2020-04-24T20:25:15Z Xach: patlv: i used the sybase / freetds driver successfully but it was a while ago
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2020-04-24T20:29:14Z patlv: Xach: you remember the library name?
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2020-04-24T20:29:45Z patlv: maybe cl-mssql?
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2020-04-24T20:32:11Z Xach: patlv: i thought it was via clsql. i might have the code handy, let me check.
2020-04-24T20:34:29Z Xach: patlv: looks like i don't, sorry. it did not involve mssql, it used only sybase-oriented libraries (which is the parent of mssql)
2020-04-24T20:35:22Z patlv: Xach: no worries, thanks anyway!
2020-04-24T20:37:29Z patlv: your message made me look and find cl-mssql, which gives me another option
2020-04-24T20:37:54Z Xach: cool!
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2020-04-24T22:54:17Z |3b| should learn not to test things :( https://gist.github.com/3b/2bc8911f30ad6b0820d608205012e4f1
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2020-04-24T22:55:06Z |3b|: i think that's 4 or 5 implementations broken while trying to test my code
2020-04-24T22:55:31Z phoe: did you just attempt to read into a zero-length vector
2020-04-24T22:55:37Z |3b|: yeah
2020-04-24T22:55:42Z phoe: evil
2020-04-24T22:55:48Z |3b|: which seems ok as far as i can tell from spec
2020-04-24T22:55:58Z phoe: clhs read-sequence
2020-04-24T22:55:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_seq.htm
2020-04-24T22:56:14Z phoe: yes, it should be okay
2020-04-24T22:56:24Z |3b|: and happens easily when buffering chunked data from a file, which happens to have 0-sized chunks
2020-04-24T22:56:24Z phoe: it should read exactly zero elements
2020-04-24T22:56:27Z |3b|: right
2020-04-24T22:56:31Z |3b|: and not crash the GC
2020-04-24T22:56:48Z phoe: just one thing - you did load all patches into ACL before issuing, this, right?
2020-04-24T22:56:54Z |3b|: no idea
2020-04-24T22:57:03Z |3b|: i downloaded the free thing and ran alisp
2020-04-24T22:57:41Z |3b|: if you have a properly set up real version, i'd be curious if it works there or not
2020-04-24T22:57:47Z phoe: I don't
2020-04-24T22:57:56Z phoe: run sys:update-allegro and then try that again
2020-04-24T22:58:05Z phoe: if it's still broken, let Franz know that you broke it
2020-04-24T22:58:27Z |3b| has no idea how to use allegro properly, just added it to CI since roswell knew how to install it :p
2020-04-24T22:58:58Z phoe: okay, lemme check
2020-04-24T22:59:08Z |3b|: yeah, seems to still break with that
2020-04-24T22:59:41Z |3b|: ah, forgot the "need to rebuild image" part
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2020-04-24T23:00:49Z |3b|: ok, still broken after that, assuming it worked
2020-04-24T23:01:03Z phoe: lemme verify as well
2020-04-24T23:04:00Z phoe: woooooow
2020-04-24T23:04:02Z phoe: a segfault
2020-04-24T23:04:13Z |3b|: yeah, pretty random results in actual code
2020-04-24T23:04:14Z phoe: go ahead and report it :D
2020-04-24T23:04:30Z |3b|: segfault, unknown object type, stuff about object pointing into newspace, etc
2020-04-24T23:04:55Z phoe: obvious memory corruption stuff.
2020-04-24T23:07:49Z aeth: but the internet common wisdom told me that compilers never have bugs
2020-04-24T23:08:08Z |3b|: unless you use them, then they have lots of bugs :/
2020-04-24T23:08:10Z aeth: Where are you coming up with these clever test cases?
2020-04-24T23:08:16Z |3b|: 3bz
2020-04-24T23:08:23Z |3b|: and pngload
2020-04-24T23:08:27Z aeth: And, yeah, I've spotted bugs before, but only when disassembling and seeing weird unoptimal things going on there
2020-04-24T23:08:34Z |3b|: (ecl/abcl bug from 3bz, this one from pngload)
2020-04-24T23:09:12Z |3b|: and clasp can't compile nibbles in parallel or something like that, found since it is a dependency of 3bz
2020-04-24T23:09:45Z |3b|: cmucl apparently gets confused by inlining struct accessors, not sure if that is a bug or not
2020-04-24T23:10:17Z |3b|: and lots of lisps object to local setf functions with names matching struct accessors, also probably not an actual bug
2020-04-24T23:10:35Z phoe: inline needs to preserve semantics, so anything inline-related that changes them is generally a bug
2020-04-24T23:10:36Z |3b|: (since fallback to calling #'(setf foo) is last option after all the expanders and macros and stuff)
2020-04-24T23:11:30Z |3b|: https://github.com/xach/skippy/issues/1 is what cmucl does with inlined struct accessors
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2020-04-24T23:33:55Z |3b|: hmm, only ~3h to find and report that bug, i guess that isn't too horrible :/
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2020-04-24T23:34:44Z |3b|: easy to workaround at least, since i don't actually need to read those 0 bytes
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2020-04-25T00:09:15Z Oladon: phoe: Did you ever get your bytea columns working in Postgres/CLSQL back in 2018?
2020-04-25T00:09:46Z Oladon: I've got a bytea column that just returns 0 when I select from it, even though there's definitely a byte array in there.
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2020-04-25T02:56:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-25T03:00:38Z Oladon: Morning beach!
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2020-04-25T03:01:19Z Oladon: beach: What fun projects do you have going on these days?
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2020-04-25T03:07:03Z beach: Only one active one right now: SICL.  I think I finished code generation, so I am back to working on bootstrapping.  I am trying to simplify it as much as I can before I turn my DAG into a cyclic graph of metaobjects.
2020-04-25T03:07:13Z beach: Oladon: What about yourself?
2020-04-25T03:09:38Z Oladon: Nice! Sounds like fun.
2020-04-25T03:09:57Z Fare: beach, nice. How does that interact with the use of parts of SICL by clasp?
2020-04-25T03:10:38Z Oladon: I'm working on a fairly "straightforward" web server thingy -- wrestling with trying to get clsql to process byte arrays properly at the moment. :)
2020-04-25T03:10:45Z beach: Clasp uses Cleavir, which is a compiler framework.  And Cleavir is a separate sub-project of SICL.
2020-04-25T03:10:54Z Fare: beach, is there an overview of the passes of your compiler?
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2020-04-25T03:12:24Z no-defun-allowed: There are concrete syntax trees, abstract syntax trees, HIR (which I suppose explicates data and control flow), MIR (introducing memory), LIR (introducing registers) and Cluster assembler, from memory.
2020-04-25T03:12:24Z beach: Fare: Globally speaking, it is CST-to-AST, AST-to-HIR, HIR-to-MIR, MIR-to-LIR, LIR-to-Cluster (assembler), and Cluster code generation.  There are not many optimization passes yet.  Also the thing can be customized, so Clasp probably does its own.
2020-04-25T03:12:42Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Heh, thanks!
2020-04-25T03:12:52Z no-defun-allowed: (:
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2020-04-25T03:13:27Z beach: Fare: Clasp stops at HIR and then does HIR-to-LLVM.
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2020-04-25T03:19:42Z beach: Fare: We have code for several optimization passes, but each client can choose which ones to apply and how.  For example, type inference is done in HIR.  Value numbering can be done in several passes, etc.
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2020-04-25T03:28:08Z Fare: CST is common-lisp syntax?
2020-04-25T03:28:41Z beach: It is S-expressions wrapped in standard objects for things like source tracking.
2020-04-25T03:29:29Z beach: The Eclector reader is able to read Common Lisp source code and return a CST.
2020-04-25T03:33:15Z beach: Many of the early passes are now in separate libraries.  CST is separate, Eclector is separate, Trucler manages lexical compile-time environments, and that's separate too.  We are working on extracting first-class global environments to a separate library.  After that, it will be AST and CST-to-AST.
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2020-04-25T03:41:01Z beach: Fare: Every pass is defined as a bunch of generic functions that take a CLIENT argument, so that client code can customize pretty much everything.
2020-04-25T03:41:37Z beach: That's why it's a "compiler framework" rather than a "compiler".
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2020-04-25T05:32:40Z asarch: One stupid question: how is better? (foo () (let ... (do-the-computation))) or (let ... (do-the-computation) (foo with-results))?
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2020-04-25T05:35:42Z beach: It depends on the context.  There is no universal answer.
2020-04-25T05:37:13Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-04-25T05:37:16Z Fare: asarch, I favor whichever form gives the programmer more context faster when reading left to right
2020-04-25T05:37:18Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2020-04-25T05:37:37Z asarch: Ok
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2020-04-25T05:38:09Z Fare: Sometimes it's even ((lambda (x) (foo x)) (some-computation))
2020-04-25T05:38:33Z asarch: I suspect the second form is better because it let you to know all the vars in a glitch
2020-04-25T05:38:38Z Fare: What will best enlighten the reader?
2020-04-25T05:38:51Z asarch takes notes...
2020-04-25T05:38:58Z Fare: Is there a pattern followed throughout the file or codebase?
2020-04-25T05:39:21Z asarch: No, there isn't. That's my code
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2020-04-25T05:39:39Z asarch: I just writing the do's and don'ts in the language
2020-04-25T05:39:39Z beach: Fare: Did I answer your questions to your satisfaction?
2020-04-25T05:39:42Z Fare: What will help the reader understand what's going on, with most context and least misdirection?
2020-04-25T05:40:30Z aeth: CL doesn't have DONTs, only DOs...
2020-04-25T05:40:52Z Fare: Imagine that an older stupider more forgetful drunk yourself has to fix a bug or add a feature under a tight deadline a few years later after having forgotten all about it... how would he like the code to look like?
2020-04-25T05:42:05Z asarch: Good point
2020-04-25T05:42:24Z Fare: Also, go explain the code to your colleagues, or write documentation for the internals... do you have to simplify things? To introduce some concepts? To gloss over others? Then you need to refactor your code accordingly
2020-04-25T05:42:39Z aeth: asarch: When in doubt, break things up into as many functions as possible. But I'm not quite sure howt hat maps to your two styles.
2020-04-25T05:42:44Z aeth: *how that
2020-04-25T05:43:11Z beach: Fare: That is precisely how I try to write code these days.  Because I am already older, more stupid, and more forgetful.  Though I don't attempt to fix bugs when I am drunk, of course.
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2020-04-25T05:44:41Z Fare: Matthias Felleisen likes to quote a saying (approx.) "Write your code as if it will be maintained by a psycopathic murderer who knows your address"
2020-04-25T05:44:59Z beach: Heh.
2020-04-25T05:45:51Z aeth: When I find myself commenting entire sections of code, I almost always notice that those sections break up pretty well into separate functions with names pretty close to the comments I made. I might have to have them return multiple values (via VALUES) and then MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND the functions, though.
2020-04-25T05:46:04Z asarch: (let (....) (bar) (baz) ... (spam) (foo with-the-result))
2020-04-25T05:46:19Z asarch: Much clear, isn't it?
2020-04-25T05:46:41Z Fare: beach: thanks for the answer. I'm trying to design my compiler, and though it has constraints very different from CL, there are commonalities too
2020-04-25T05:46:58Z beach: Fare: I see.  Good luck.
2020-04-25T05:47:19Z asarch: Than: (foo (let (...) (bar) (baz) ... (spam))
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2020-04-25T05:56:02Z aeth: asarch: let* might be the way to go
2020-04-25T05:56:20Z aeth: (let* ((x (foo)) (y (bar x)) ...
2020-04-25T05:57:06Z aeth: (I know, in your example your foo comes last, but I'm just too used to doing foo and then bar in my examples)
2020-04-25T05:58:14Z aeth: asarch: on the other hand if you do (foo (...)) then you could always do (foo (quux ...)) where QUUX now has the LET etc
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2020-04-25T06:01:45Z aeth: Of course, (foo (bar (baz (quux ...)))) isn't very readable, so you can't compose them all in the parent function like this
2020-04-25T06:03:24Z asarch: I see
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2020-04-25T06:31:59Z Fare: clojure has popularized "threading macros". Maybe CLers should adopt them.
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2020-04-25T06:32:20Z Fare: (One of these macros corresponds to the macro "NEST" that I export in POIU)
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2020-04-25T06:32:37Z no-defun-allowed: There is cl-arrows.
2020-04-25T06:33:52Z no-defun-allowed: I probably have a right-way-around-arrows somewhere, because the "postfix" -> didn't feel right in prefix code.
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2020-04-25T06:42:08Z Fare: I love postfix. I miss the HP RPL.
2020-04-25T06:42:27Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, but it still is the "other way around" in the context of Lisp.
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2020-04-25T06:43:41Z Lycurgus thought that would turn out to be something category theory related or the like
2020-04-25T06:43:53Z no-defun-allowed: The cool kids (OCaml, Javascript soon, etc) seem to do -> with the infix |> operator (eg x |> f = f x)
2020-04-25T06:45:11Z Fare: F# started the trend, IIRC. Of course, | is taken in CL, for escaping symbols.
2020-04-25T06:46:52Z markasoftware: When should I add an :after method to initialize-instance instead of making a constructor method that wraps make-instance?
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2020-04-25T06:50:21Z beach: markasoftware: Sonja Keene favors constructors, but I find that it can get pretty complicated when the class hierarchy is not simple.  So I always do the :AFTER method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
2020-04-25T06:50:50Z markasoftware: beach: is this because, if you only add after to initialize-instance, initargs for a superclass still take effect?
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2020-04-25T06:51:22Z beach: markasoftware: I kind of follow the example of the CLIM specification, where the interface to a class is the :INITARGs and the generic functions that operate on its instances.
2020-04-25T06:51:32Z markasoftware: i see
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2020-04-25T06:51:51Z markasoftware: What if you need a custom argument to initialize your class, but you don't want to store that argument permanently? This is the case for me.
2020-04-25T06:52:05Z markasoftware: can you have an initarg that is not connected to a slot?
2020-04-25T06:52:11Z beach: Sure.
2020-04-25T06:52:30Z beach: Just capture them in your method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
2020-04-25T06:55:20Z markasoftware: beach: how do you mean, "capture"?
2020-04-25T06:55:30Z beach: Define them as &key parameters.
2020-04-25T06:55:31Z markasoftware: make-instance throws an error if i try to pass an initarg that is not declared on any slot
2020-04-25T06:56:05Z markasoftware: oh huh that works
2020-04-25T06:56:08Z markasoftware: i am confusion
2020-04-25T06:56:50Z markasoftware: How does anyone know about the lambda-list to initialize-instance?
2020-04-25T06:57:08Z beach: Hold on, let me look for the relevant Common Lisp HyperSpec page...
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2020-04-25T06:57:54Z beach: clhs 7.1.2
2020-04-25T06:57:54Z specbot: Declaring the Validity of Initialization Arguments: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ab.htm
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2020-04-25T06:59:00Z beach: markasoftware: The first item in the list says that a keyword argument is valid for MAKE-INSTANCE if it is defined by INITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
2020-04-25T07:01:06Z beach: markasoftware: Technically, MAKE-INSTANCE is quite a complex operation in that it has to check the validity of those keyword arguments for every call.  But in practice, there are tricks that your Common Lisp implementation can play to cache this information and make things fast.
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2020-04-25T07:01:23Z markasoftware: how do you even access the lambda list for a function? is that implementation specific?
2020-04-25T07:01:39Z beach: clhs function-lambda-expression
2020-04-25T07:01:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm
2020-04-25T07:02:07Z beach: But yeah, mostly implementation specific.  Not so for generic functions though.
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2020-04-25T07:02:31Z beach: mop generic-function-lambda-list
2020-04-25T07:02:31Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-lambda-list.html
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2020-04-25T07:02:52Z beach: markasoftware: While it is not in the Common Lisp standard, it is in the MOP.
2020-04-25T07:04:06Z markasoftware: very interesting
2020-04-25T07:04:33Z beach: I agree.
2020-04-25T07:04:43Z markasoftware: so the "main" method may have a different lambda list than the :after method...how does lisp combine them?
2020-04-25T07:04:55Z markasoftware: does it find the &key for all of them, and take the union?
2020-04-25T07:05:09Z beach: Something like that.
2020-04-25T07:05:26Z beach: That's another Common Lisp HyperSpec page as I recall.
2020-04-25T07:05:36Z beach: Let me see if I can find it...
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2020-04-25T07:06:48Z beach: clhs 7.6.4
2020-04-25T07:06:48Z specbot: Congruent Lambda-lists for all Methods of a Generic Function: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm
2020-04-25T07:10:14Z markasoftware: does the default initialize-instance have &rest but not &key?
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2020-04-25T07:10:57Z markasoftware: the congruence page says that all keyword parameters specified on one method must be specified on all other methods, OR there must be &rest but not &key on other methods, OR there must be &allow-other-keys on other methods
2020-04-25T07:11:14Z beach: clhs initialize-instance
2020-04-25T07:11:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_init_i.htm
2020-04-25T07:11:46Z markasoftware: ok, so it has &allow-other-keys
2020-04-25T07:12:01Z markasoftware: but 7.1.2 says " The presence of &allow-other-keys in the lambda list of an applicable method disables validity checking of initialization arguments."
2020-04-25T07:12:19Z markasoftware: so why does validity checking work even though initialize-instance has &allow-other-keys?
2020-04-25T07:12:37Z beach: Yes, but make-instance also explicitly checks the validity of the keyword arguments according to the page I showed you.
2020-04-25T07:13:24Z beach: It has to take &allow-other-keys, because otherwise, it would signal an error before it has the opportunity to check the validity.
2020-04-25T07:15:17Z beach: These are very good questions.  Perfect for #lisp. :)
2020-04-25T07:16:13Z markasoftware: (make-instance) does the checking, not (initialize-instance), right?
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2020-04-25T07:17:56Z beach: Right.
2020-04-25T07:18:26Z beach: It doesn't say explicitly, but it says "Making an instance of a class..".
2020-04-25T07:18:49Z markasoftware: the make-instance clhs page does make it explicit, thankfully
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2020-04-25T07:19:33Z markasoftware: Thank you, this has made a lot of things clearer for me. I'm mainly used to Java's excuse for an OOP system :)
2020-04-25T07:19:49Z beach: Heh.  Glad I could help.
2020-04-25T07:20:20Z phoe: does (make-excuse 'oop-system ...) also check keyword validity?
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2020-04-25T07:23:24Z phoe: I mean ummmm
2020-04-25T07:23:26Z phoe: good morning
2020-04-25T07:23:39Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning phoe.
2020-04-25T07:23:54Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2020-04-25T07:28:00Z phoe: hey hi you two
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2020-04-25T07:36:40Z Inline: morning
2020-04-25T07:37:40Z no-defun-allowed: Hello Inline
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2020-04-25T09:05:12Z pjb: aeth: I wouldn't be so confident about DONTs in CL… They're only a mere macro away!  cf. http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/c85442d46c643536 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/7490e28eec0c0ff5 for example…
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2020-04-25T09:13:43Z asarch: What does 'The value "2" is not of type NUMBER when binding SB-KERNEL::X' mean?
2020-04-25T09:14:06Z beach: It means it's a string.
2020-04-25T09:14:31Z no-defun-allowed: Exactly that.
2020-04-25T09:14:39Z asarch: Oh, then I simply cannot (let ((value (* 40 x))) ...), right?
2020-04-25T09:14:39Z beach: You are probably passing a string to some operator doing arithmetic.
2020-04-25T09:14:41Z no-defun-allowed: "2" denotes a string; you probably gave some numeric function a string instead of the appropriate number.
2020-04-25T09:14:54Z no-defun-allowed: You can, but X has to be a NUMBER, not a STRING.
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2020-04-25T09:15:19Z asarch: Thank you guy!
2020-04-25T09:15:21Z asarch: *guys
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2020-04-25T09:15:28Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-)
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2020-04-25T09:16:35Z asarch: Why (qsort ...) is not part of the STL?
2020-04-25T09:16:46Z asarch: *"STL"
2020-04-25T09:17:09Z no-defun-allowed: clhs sort
2020-04-25T09:17:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sort_.htm
2020-04-25T09:18:07Z no-defun-allowed: (format nil "~{~a~^ ~}" (sort '("is..." "But it") #'string<))
2020-04-25T09:18:35Z asarch: Bingo!
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2020-04-25T09:20:02Z no-defun-allowed: The sorting algorithm that it uses isn't specified, but it's probably not a slow one. (Does qsort mean quicksort? I think that's also unspecified.)
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2020-04-25T09:23:00Z asarch: Yeah, QuickSort (like C's qsort)
2020-04-25T09:23:29Z beach: asarch: Why do you care what sorting algorithm is used?
2020-04-25T09:23:58Z no-defun-allowed: qsort(3) doesn't specify what algorithm is used; but for lists I believe merge-sort is more efficient.
2020-04-25T09:24:14Z beach: That's correct.
2020-04-25T09:24:57Z asarch: Actually, I was doing a program in Assembly for x86 with GAS in the Intel Syntax and I just wonder how fast was Common Lisp's qsort
2020-04-25T09:25:25Z beach: asarch: Common Lisp doesn't have any function named QSORT.
2020-04-25T09:26:00Z pjb: And sort doesn't necessarily use the quicksort algorithm. There are faster algorithms… in some circumstances.
2020-04-25T09:26:21Z beach: asarch: Also, performance depends on the implementation, not on the language.
2020-04-25T09:27:11Z asarch: I see
2020-04-25T09:28:00Z asarch: I thought qsort was the fastest algorithm for sorting elements :-(
2020-04-25T09:28:34Z phoe: not always
2020-04-25T09:28:48Z phoe: the problem highly depends on what and how you want to sort
2020-04-25T09:29:01Z beach: asarch: It is not.  Especially not on a list, as no-defun-allowed pointed out.
2020-04-25T09:29:24Z Grue`: does anybody know/use "popup buffers" in SLIME? trying to figure out how to make slime-media display an image in a separate buffer
2020-04-25T09:29:30Z beach: asarch: Bucket-sort is the fastest if your element domain permits it.
2020-04-25T09:29:53Z no-defun-allowed: I also recall that quicksort is also O(n^2) if your sequence is sorted the other way.
2020-04-25T09:30:26Z beach: no-defun-allowed: That depends on how the pivot element is chosen.
2020-04-25T09:30:58Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
2020-04-25T09:31:02Z Grue`: if the implementation is known, it's possible for an attacker to construct a sequence that's O(n^2) to sort
2020-04-25T09:31:30Z asarch: Wow! :-(
2020-04-25T09:33:33Z Grue`: all I figured out so far is that (swank::send-to-emacs '(:popup-buffer "aaa" "test" nil)) will kill Swank dead
2020-04-25T09:36:57Z asarch: Bingo! My Caveman2 web application has now pagination: http://localhost:5000/students?p=2
2020-04-25T09:36:58Z jackdaniel: Grue`: implementation may pick the element randomly from the appropriate set
2020-04-25T09:37:02Z asarch: Thank you guys!
2020-04-25T09:37:06Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-)
2020-04-25T09:37:22Z Grue`: that localhost link is not very helpful...
2020-04-25T09:37:46Z asarch: Sorry, sorry :-P
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2020-04-25T09:40:14Z pjb: Grue`: what about eval-in-emacs? https://github.com/informatimago/emacs/blob/master/slime-rpc.el
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2020-04-25T09:40:20Z asarch: Take a look: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/588708
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2020-04-25T09:43:12Z Grue`: pjb: that requires setting special permissions in emacs, while sending an event does not
2020-04-25T09:43:24Z asarch: From all the web frameworks I know, Caveman2 is the only one where you only need to edit just two files to up application
2020-04-25T09:43:46Z Grue`: also now that I look at swank source, it doesn't seem like it can handle a :popup-buffer event at all
2020-04-25T09:44:16Z no-defun-allowed: Well, I mean, you could put as many forms as you wanted into one Lisp source file...
2020-04-25T09:44:32Z Shinmera: or you could not use any lisp source files at all.
2020-04-25T09:44:59Z Shinmera: though some frameworks seem to require file system stuff.
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2020-04-25T09:51:37Z asarch: Have a nice day :-)
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2020-04-25T09:52:13Z aeth: pjb: I think a DONT would be more along the lines of (defmacro dont (&body body) (declare (ignore body)) nil)
2020-04-25T09:53:01Z no-defun-allowed: (dont nil)
2020-04-25T09:54:18Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: it doesn't nil, it just returns a different nil... you can use (values) instead in your DONT if you want, though
2020-04-25T09:54:42Z no-defun-allowed: (dont (values))
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2020-04-25T09:55:33Z aeth: (if (eql body nil) (values) nil)
2020-04-25T09:55:49Z no-defun-allowed: :c
2020-04-25T09:56:16Z aeth: or, actually (and body (listp body) (endp (cadr body))
2020-04-25T09:56:56Z aeth: s/cadr/cdr/
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2020-04-25T10:00:39Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: (defmacro dont (&body body) (if (and (consp body) (endp (cdr body)) (null (car body))) `(values) nil))
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2020-04-25T10:02:33Z aeth: of course you can still (dont (progn nil)) etc. but that works as expected because it shouldn't attempt to evaluate it, it should just do nothing
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2020-04-25T10:04:17Z Shinmera: A much more interesting variant would be one that actually randomly constructs valid code and executes it.
2020-04-25T10:06:22Z aeth: technically all it has to do is something that is not provided, yes
2020-04-25T10:06:43Z pjb: Grue`: what is a popup-buffer event?
2020-04-25T10:07:16Z pjb: Grue`: how do I set special permissions in emacs?
2020-04-25T10:08:12Z aeth: and technically DONT is actually useful, as a way to essentially comment out entire s-expressions (assuming nothing fancy is going on, like with the reader).
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2020-04-25T10:08:49Z no-defun-allowed: #1=(dont #1#)
2020-04-25T10:09:36Z aeth: (dont #.(print "Hello")) ; of course, it's technically functioning, because it's returning NIL instead of "Hello"
2020-04-25T10:10:01Z Grue`: pjb: for eval-in-emacs to work, `slime-enable-evaluate-in-emacs' should be set to T on the Emacs side. It's a security feature, I think (though realistically running random CL code is as dangerous as running random Elisp code)
2020-04-25T10:13:43Z pjb:  indeed, since you can always do emacsclient -e …
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2020-04-25T10:16:31Z pjb: (uiop:run-program "emacs-client -e '(setq slime-enable-evaluate-in-emacs t)'") (eval-in-emacs '(switch-to-buffer "HELLO"))
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2020-04-25T11:50:03Z Grue`: aw yes I figured it out https://gist.github.com/tshatrov/02e14ce32618f98705303812c2d427b2
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2020-04-25T11:50:33Z Grue`: very important to set buffer-file-name and not-modified because Emacs image mode is dumb
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2020-04-25T11:51:21Z phoe: Grue`: please turn that into a blogpost
2020-04-25T11:51:46Z Grue`: I might do that
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2020-04-25T12:06:23Z pjb: Grue`: instead of view-file-slime, you can use (defmethod view-image (image-designator stream)) and have methods for pathname image 2d-array etc, and character-stream, binary-stream, swank/gray::slime-output-stream etc.
2020-04-25T12:06:47Z pjb: so (defmethod view-image (image-designator (stream swank/gray::slime-output-stream)) …) could call swank::eval-in-emacs.
2020-04-25T12:07:12Z pjb: but (defmethod view-image (image-designator (stream clim:stream-or-whatever)) …) would call clim.
2020-04-25T12:07:13Z pjb: etc.
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2020-04-25T15:28:02Z theseb: Is this right?  I think I know why/when you'd want a DSL (domain specific language).....when you are solving a very complex problem!...In that case you can't tolerate *any* distractions from your language....even an easy readable language like Python isn't clean enough when you're pushing the envelope of complexity yes?
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2020-04-25T15:30:15Z beach: By "your language", do you mean the DSL?  And what kind of "distraction" are you referring to?
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2020-04-25T15:32:04Z beach: theseb: There are different reasons for preferring a DSL over a general-purpose language.  Once possible reason is that you don't want your language to be Turing complete, so that the compiler can do a complete analysis of the program.  In that case, the programmer must be completely restricted to the DSL that is being available.
2020-04-25T15:33:13Z beach: theseb: But another possible reason might be that it is just more expressive for the domain in question, i.e., you need less code for a particular task.  Then, you can make a DSL as an embedded language, and program in a mixture of the host language and the DSL.
2020-04-25T15:33:48Z beach: theseb: Common Lisp programmers use the second method all the time.  Any complex macro can be thought of as a small DSL for a particular domain.
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2020-04-25T15:46:03Z theseb: beach: right....
2020-04-25T15:46:43Z theseb: beach: at first making a DSL sounded extreme....but if you are doing something "extreme" like some hardcore cutting edge machine language thingie...then it may be warranted!
2020-04-25T15:47:05Z theseb: i think i'm starting to "get" lisp ;)
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2020-04-25T15:47:20Z theseb: beach: thanks for your help
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2020-04-25T15:50:04Z beach: Sure.
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2020-04-25T15:50:46Z varjag: could anyone point to an example of udp broadcast handling with usocket?
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2020-04-25T15:52:47Z theseb: beach: can i ask you about what seems an very elegant feature of lisp parsing? I think lisp can parse strings like this "abc"def" without escaping? (e.g. "abc\"def")?.....Because of the way s-expressions work it seems there isn't the ambiguity in "abc"def" you'd find in other languages...Is that right?
2020-04-25T15:55:32Z phoe: theseb: that's actually not how the reader works
2020-04-25T15:55:37Z phoe: "abc" gets read as a string
2020-04-25T15:55:44Z phoe: def gets read as a symbol DEF
2020-04-25T15:55:50Z phoe: " starts reading the next string
2020-04-25T15:55:51Z theseb: phoe: i just tested (print "hel"lo") and it bombed ;)
2020-04-25T15:55:54Z theseb: you are right'
2020-04-25T15:55:55Z phoe: yes
2020-04-25T15:57:08Z theseb: phoe: oh i think i get it....the reader doesn't know when string ends if we allow that
2020-04-25T15:57:13Z phoe: exactly
2020-04-25T15:58:03Z MichaelRaskin: Also, "asd""def" is a legal way to represent two strings
2020-04-25T16:00:50Z pjb: theseb: there's no point in asking the same question in different channels!
2020-04-25T16:01:01Z pjb: theseb: if you didn't care about CL or scheme, you could have used ##lisp !
2020-04-25T16:03:39Z pjb: theseb: With the syntax you propose, how do you distinguish (list "good" morning" !") from (list "good" morning" !" ?  ie a list of 1 string vs. a list of a string, a symbol and a string?
2020-04-25T16:03:50Z pjb: s/ ?/)?/
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2020-04-25T16:14:24Z theseb: pjb: hmmm...yea ...your example was ambiguous because you had a space after a "....weird that MY example is fine if you do NOT put a space after the "
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2020-04-25T16:21:29Z amazoniantoad: How do I reference the second element of a simple-array? I tried using elt but it throws an error. Also aref doesn't work.
2020-04-25T16:21:38Z phoe: amazoniantoad: "doesn't work", what do you mean
2020-04-25T16:21:47Z phoe: (aref array 1) should do the trick
2020-04-25T16:21:54Z amazoniantoad: let me try real quick
2020-04-25T16:22:05Z Bike: of course, that's assuming your array is one dimensional.
2020-04-25T16:22:27Z amazoniantoad: Wrong number of subscripts, 1, for array of rank 2.
2020-04-25T16:22:30Z amazoniantoad: Yeah, it isn't
2020-04-25T16:22:53Z Bike: if it's not one dimensional than "second element" is a more ambiguous concept.
2020-04-25T16:22:56Z phoe: ^
2020-04-25T16:23:05Z amazoniantoad: It's an array of arrays
2020-04-25T16:23:11Z Bike: No, it's a two dimensional array.
2020-04-25T16:23:11Z phoe: no, it's a two-dimensional array
2020-04-25T16:23:16Z amazoniantoad: Oh okay
2020-04-25T16:23:17Z phoe: an array of arrays is a different thing
2020-04-25T16:23:29Z phoe: try (aref array 0 0)
2020-04-25T16:23:39Z phoe: use more than one subscript, as many subscripts as many dimensions your array has
2020-04-25T16:23:45Z amazoniantoad: yeah that works
2020-04-25T16:23:49Z amazoniantoad: oh I see
2020-04-25T16:24:16Z phoe: you can't really refer to invidual "subarrays" in Lisp, mostly because they aren't individual
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2020-04-25T16:24:58Z phoe: a 10x10 array is different than a 10-element array full of 10-element arrays
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2020-04-25T16:26:13Z amazoniantoad: I see
2020-04-25T16:27:09Z phoe: see https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1776#1776
2020-04-25T16:27:15Z phoe: the first is a vector of vectors
2020-04-25T16:27:18Z phoe: the latter is a 2D array
2020-04-25T16:28:45Z phoe: ...which, on SBCL, is nonetheless backed by a vector for storage - but that's an implementation detail
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2020-04-25T16:30:42Z beach: phoe: Oh?  I think the standard requires the elements to be stored in row-major order.
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2020-04-25T16:31:43Z Bike: technically they could be stored in some other way and row-major-aref and array-row-major-index could do translations
2020-04-25T16:31:53Z Bike: don't think anyone actually does that, though
2020-04-25T16:31:58Z Shinmera: you can access them in row-major order byr-m-a, but yeah, you could store it however.
2020-04-25T16:32:44Z beach: I guess, so, sure.
2020-04-25T16:33:02Z beach: Displaced arrays would be very hard to implement then.
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2020-04-25T16:35:13Z phoe: beach: order, yes
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2020-04-25T16:35:44Z phoe: I meant what Shinmera said though
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2020-04-25T16:48:58Z pjb: theseb: actually, your example is no less ambiguous than mine.  Notably, in CL, (length '("ab""cd"foo)) #| --> 3 |#
2020-04-25T16:50:03Z pjb: theseb: reader macros can be terminating or non-terminating: (mapcar 'identity '(foo"bar"#P"baz"quux#P"FOO")) #| --> (foo "bar" #P"baz" QUUX\#P "FOO") |#
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2020-04-25T17:05:04Z z0d: someone's writing a Diablo clone in SBCL
2020-04-25T17:05:06Z z0d: https://www.twitch.tv/awkravchuk
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2020-04-25T17:28:54Z Grue`: z0d: hopefully it has Kitten of Death as a monster
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2020-04-25T19:05:43Z Grue`: !clhs 22.2.1.2
2020-04-25T19:06:26Z Grue`: what would be format alternative to (pprint-fill nil (alexandria:iota 100)) ? Can't figure it out...
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2020-04-25T19:13:24Z |3b|: Grue`: "~@<~a~:@>" or something like that?
2020-04-25T19:15:16Z |3b|: or "~:<~@{~a~^ ~}~:@>", depending on how much control you want over printing the list
2020-04-25T19:19:25Z |3b|: (assuming you mean the behavior of pprint-fill when *print-pretty* is t. if you want it to depend on *print-pretty* use "~:/pprint-fill/" format string)
2020-04-25T19:20:45Z Grue`: hmm I tried (format nil "~<~{~a ~}~:>" (list (alexandria:iota 100))) but it didn't work at all
2020-04-25T19:20:50Z Grue`: but "~<~@{~a~^ ~}~:@>" does what I want
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2020-04-25T19:23:46Z |3b|: yeah, body of ~< ... ~:> sees corresponding argument as if it were expanded, ~@{~} puts it back into a list and iterates over it
2020-04-25T19:25:25Z |3b|: so you could use ~{~a~^ ~} with (list (iota 100)) instead
2020-04-25T19:25:42Z |3b|: @ in ~:@> adds conditional newline after every space, so it matches pprint-fill
2020-04-25T19:26:26Z |3b|: and : in ~:<  adds parens around it, if you want those
2020-04-25T19:29:00Z pve: hello
2020-04-25T19:29:04Z Grue`: well actually I have a list of pairs (key description) and I want to format each of them as "[~a] ~a". However if ~@{...~} is used, it gets (key description) on every iteration and can't be easily formatted. but if ~{... ~} is used then filling doesn't work
2020-04-25T19:29:38Z pve: Do you guys think it be cleaner to use dynamic variables in a situation such as this? Or some other approach?
2020-04-25T19:29:44Z pve: https://pastebin.com/QyM1DT3U
2020-04-25T19:29:57Z pve: I.e. communicating certain things from the top-level down to the lower levels.
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2020-04-25T19:31:22Z |3b|: Grue`: like '((a b) (c d) (e f))?
2020-04-25T19:31:30Z pjb: (format nil "~:{[~A] ~A ~}" '((k1 d1) (k2 d2) (k3 d3))) #| --> "[k1] d1 [k2] d2 [k3] d3 " |#
2020-04-25T19:31:32Z phoe: pve: you already are using dynamic variables under the hood
2020-04-25T19:32:01Z |3b|: "~<~@{~{~a=~a~}~^, ~}~:@>" prints that as A=B, C=D, E=F
2020-04-25T19:32:25Z phoe: you seem to use the convenient feature of handlers where, if they don't transfer control, they execute in order from newest to oldest, just like hooks
2020-04-25T19:33:16Z |3b|: or with ~{~a = ~a~}, can break before or after the =
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2020-04-25T19:33:27Z Grue`: oh yeah right, another level of iteration
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2020-04-25T19:33:57Z Grue`: though I'd want the space between pairs to be unbreakable
2020-04-25T19:34:11Z |3b|: if you want spaces inside an item without breaking an individual item, "~<~@{~<~a = ~a~:>~^, ~}~:@>"
2020-04-25T19:34:14Z phoe: pve: I'd need more context about that issue; do you need to have multiple layers of communication and need it to be established in dynamic scope?
2020-04-25T19:35:00Z pjb: (format nil "~:{[~A] ~A~:^; ~}" '((k1 d1) (k2 d2) (k3 d3))) #| --> "[k1] d1; [k2] d2; [k3] d3" |#
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2020-04-25T19:35:14Z pjb: Note: you need to use ~:^ instead of ~^ in that case.
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2020-04-25T19:35:41Z pve: phoe: yes to dynamic scope, and the layers in question are pretty disconnected so I'd like the coupling to be loose
2020-04-25T19:36:14Z Grue`: |3b|: oh now I'm starting to get it
2020-04-25T19:36:33Z pve: and somehow I feel that the condition approach gives me looser coupling.. although that could be an illusion
2020-04-25T19:36:38Z |3b|: pjb: does that do the pprint-fill style wrapping?
2020-04-25T19:36:44Z phoe: pve: you can use the condition system for that, sure, or you can construct your own dynamic hook system
2020-04-25T19:36:51Z pjb: |3b|: no, this is without the pretty-printer.
2020-04-25T19:37:01Z phoe: the condition approach is basically (let ((*hooks* (cons new-hooks *hooks*))) ...)
2020-04-25T19:37:18Z phoe: where new-hooks is the list of new hooks that you specify to fire for condition type ASK
2020-04-25T19:37:27Z Grue`: I need pretty printing though for pretty UI :)
2020-04-25T19:38:26Z phoe: or, if you don't need to cluster hooks together, (let ((*hooks* (append new-hooks *hooks*))) ...)
2020-04-25T19:38:50Z pve: phoe: I see, thanks.. I'll pick one approach now and see if it sticks. It should be easy to change later in this case
2020-04-25T19:39:00Z phoe: this is literally how the handler subsystem works under the hood, so you can either use it for your purpose or devise your own
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2020-04-25T20:14:43Z pfdietz: The place where I use hooks like that is the aptly named *macroexpand-hook*.   Very handy for AOP-style things.
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2020-04-25T21:07:51Z ralt: it's my first time writing a recursive macro
2020-04-25T21:07:52Z ralt: it's fun
2020-04-25T21:08:16Z ralt: well, rather, it's my first time writing a macro that recurses into forms to generate the code
2020-04-25T21:08:39Z ralt: i.e. ((foo) (bar)) ends up as (foo (bar))
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2020-04-25T21:55:48Z SAL9000: Hi everyone (long time no see...)! Does ELS 2020 have an IRC channel of its own, or will it be just Twitch chat?
2020-04-25T21:56:55Z Shinmera: Just Twitch.
2020-04-25T21:57:26Z Shinmera: Though you can chat on Twitch over IRC (they have a bridge for it)
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2020-04-25T22:32:50Z pfdietz: Can one log into twitch using gnome-twitch, or is that just for viewing?
2020-04-25T22:34:05Z anlsh: How can I accomplish something like (apply #'and list-of-conditions)?
2020-04-25T22:34:33Z |3b|: is list-of-conditions already evaluated?
2020-04-25T22:34:50Z anlsh: Yes
2020-04-25T22:35:04Z |3b|: (every 'identity list-of-conditions) maybe?
2020-04-25T22:35:14Z |3b|: or (loop for i in list-of-conditions always i)
2020-04-25T22:36:04Z anlsh: Thanks
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2020-04-25T22:38:35Z |3b|: or (not (member nil list-of-conditions))
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2020-04-25T22:42:38Z aeth: Heh, apparently loop has an always. I've never seen that one before.
2020-04-25T22:42:42Z |3b| isn't sure if (notany 'null list-of-conditions) is more or less clear than (every 'identity ...)
2020-04-25T22:43:00Z |3b|: more obvious test, but inverted sense of main function
2020-04-25T22:43:42Z |3b|: shorter if nothing else :p
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2020-04-25T22:46:03Z |3b|: (notany 'not ...) is probably less clear :)
2020-04-25T22:47:24Z |3b|: aeth: yeah, not one of the more common ones, but useful sometimes
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2020-04-25T22:49:21Z |3b|: probably more common than INITIALLY or package symbol iteration at least
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2020-04-25T22:50:29Z aeth: ":always foo" is a bit unusual/niche because it's just replacing ":unless foo :do (return nil) :finally (return t)" which, yeah, when written in IRC looks a lot longer, but it's not that much longer.
2020-04-25T22:50:37Z aeth: looks like it produces the same disassemble in SBCL, too
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2020-04-25T22:52:34Z |3b|: annoying that LOOP's always,never,thereis don't match every,notany,some :/
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2020-04-25T22:54:08Z |3b|: arguably COUNT foo just replaces SUM (if foo 1 0) too, but both are more clear, not just shorter
2020-04-25T22:55:03Z aeth: LOOP's always seems useful for a short-circuiting reduce if you want to e.g. implement something like char<
2020-04-25T22:55:10Z aeth: (char< is arbitrary-length)
2020-04-25T22:55:19Z refusenick: I started using StumpWM on my 2nd laptop because I wanted to try Emacs' experimental ELisp compiler without causing more EXWM crashes and because EXWM has bugs opening some apps.
2020-04-25T22:55:43Z aeth: I'm surprised people use Emacs for everything, e.g. IRC.
2020-04-25T22:55:45Z refusenick: However, while those apps work in StumpWM, others (notably Zoom, which I have to use) crash it entirely
2020-04-25T22:56:04Z refusenick: Is there a "mini Erlang" package for CL?
2020-04-25T22:56:29Z aeth: The only issue I've seen on StumpWM is Steam big picture mode, which crashes, it doesn't crash StumpWM.
2020-04-25T22:56:47Z refusenick: (open app in its own process, trust it won't modify everything else, monitor it for crashes and restart with attempted fixes)
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2020-04-25T22:57:57Z refusenick: aeth: It sucks too much to not have Emacs keys everywhere else. That's my one regret about learning Emacs instead of Vim - no one writes Emacs key overlays for Firefox, etc
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2020-04-25T22:58:47Z aeth: I like Emacs keys everywhere (although you often get a readline-like subset of Emacs keys in a lot of places inside terminals, not just the shell itself)
2020-04-25T22:58:48Z refusenick: aeth: I think Zoom is the only one which has outright crashed StumpWM itself, which is a shame because I'm supposed to use that
2020-04-25T22:58:59Z anlsh: From my limited experience with emacs keybindings I have concluded they suck
2020-04-25T22:59:09Z anlsh: I use spacemacs myself :|
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2020-04-25T22:59:33Z refusenick: anlsh: You can get pretty fast with them if you rebind Control to Caps Lock
2020-04-25T22:59:47Z aeth: The basics like C-a, C-e, C-t, etc., are good and useful. Far easier than the typical alternatives (which are home and end for C-a and C-e... way harder to use and not accessible on all laptops)
2020-04-25T23:01:34Z aeth: The ergonomics in actual Emacs of some actual Emacs things I do all of the time are a bit awkward, like C-u M-! (i.e. C-u M-shift-1) for e.g. timestamping a text document via C-u M-! date -Iminutes RET
2020-04-25T23:01:53Z aeth: I guess I could configure that, but then it'll only work on a subset of my machines, not everywhere
2020-04-25T23:03:01Z aeth: And the worst thing about trying to make frequent things more ergonomic (which I've done in stumpwm) is finding a convenient, unused combination! Most convenient combinations are taken, even if I never use them intentionally!
2020-04-25T23:03:19Z refusenick: aeth: I've taken to rebinding certain keys (default query-replace is M-% - for me, it's C-c q q, and C-c q r for query-replace-regexp)
2020-04-25T23:04:38Z aeth: In stumpwm, I launch firefox with t or C-t because those aren't taken because stumpwm foolishly uses C-t as its default start of its key sequence (which is incredibly bad, and needs to be rebound to avoid having to C-t C-t every time you want to use C-t)
2020-04-25T23:04:47Z aeth: s/use C-t/use C-t in an app/
2020-04-25T23:05:12Z aeth: But in general key combos are hard
2020-04-25T23:05:19Z refusenick: aeth: The global namespace and lack of (key) modes is part of the appeal, though. It's like Logo - one chord = one function, so macros can become bona fide procedures if you want. I feel like a lot of the "Emacs keys vs Vim keys" arguments miss that.
2020-04-25T23:06:16Z aeth: Emacs keys are a more powerful way of doing typical key bindings because the chording reduces the chance of collisions and gives you more available.
2020-04-25T23:06:23Z aeth: vim is just another mode of thinking
2020-04-25T23:08:05Z refusenick: Isn't it C-t t to send C-t? In any case, I rebound C-t to C-z. Not so many problems, except for that I still hit Emacs sequences (M-x, C-x, etc) in external apps thinking they'll pull up Emacs commands like in EXWM.
2020-04-25T23:08:08Z aeth: stumpwm here isn't that good because it has one "namespace" of sorts (by default, C-t foo), but there isn't really a good answer here because you don't have the luxury of GNU Emacs where you can just use every key combination.
2020-04-25T23:08:45Z verisimilitude: Well, there's the *TOP-MAP* and the *ROOT-MAP*.
2020-04-25T23:08:51Z aeth: Although this could be avoided by using the super key, which is usually assumed to be reserved to the window manager, which then lets you e.g. have s-z s-x s-c, etc., all available. Of course, stumpwm doesn't work like that so you can only choose one and that's your new prefix
2020-04-25T23:09:47Z aeth: refusenick: C-t t and C-t C-t are used to send C-t, but C-t is a terrible default (I rebound my stumpwm to use a combo involving the super key, for the reasons outlined above) so by removing that default, that means that I have C-t and t available for my personal use, i.e. Firefox
2020-04-25T23:10:12Z aeth: That saves me from having to use ! firefox RET
2020-04-25T23:11:26Z refusenick: verisimilitude: I like how stumpwm:define-remapped-keys lets you give a regex for which programs should have which top-level keys. If I could find how to bring up an Emacs posframe (child frame) without bringing a full visible frame behind it, I could issue M-x from whichever app in my background Emacs server.
2020-04-25T23:11:55Z aeth: Now, not every keyboard has super and having the key is kind of mandatory, but if I were to write my own CL WM, I would use a dozen super-key prefixes (s-z, s-x, s-c, etc.) which gives me namespaces like Emacs and means the user can define things they want with lower risk of that already being taken
2020-04-25T23:12:45Z refusenick: I tried using s-x for some time. Too clumsy for me (and it's on a laptop with a non-replaceable keyboard, so no custom LispM keys for me)
2020-04-25T23:12:54Z aeth: s-x and not s-z?
2020-04-25T23:13:04Z aeth: s-z is usually the most convenient
2020-04-25T23:13:14Z refusenick: In retrospect, that's what I should have done. C-z works fine, though.
2020-04-25T23:14:02Z aeth: On my laptop, super's right under z. On my desktop, the z is above both super and left alt (mostly, but not entirely, the left alt).
2020-04-25T23:14:08Z aeth: Either way, s-z is the easiest super-based key
2020-04-25T23:14:38Z refusenick: All the super-based keys are hard for me. I type like a moron. :)
2020-04-25T23:15:09Z aeth: s-z s-z is more convenient than alt tab, which is fun, although technically alt-tab equivalent would be the much harder s-z n in stumpwm
2020-04-25T23:15:24Z aeth: s-x would be a good M-x equivalent since it's harder
2020-04-25T23:15:31Z aeth: s-c for user defined things could be OK
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2020-04-25T23:15:50Z refusenick: I never even knew about alt-tab until after I learned Emacs, I think
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2020-04-25T23:17:16Z refusenick: In any case, is there an "Erlang processes" library for CL? I know it can't provide real isolation, but I'd like to isolate app failure from StumpWM's core functionality.
2020-04-25T23:18:30Z refusenick: When Zoom dies, I have to Ctrl+Alt+F2 and kill the X server from the TTY. It's a good thing I left one of the TTYs active.
2020-04-25T23:19:36Z refusenick: That, or I'll need to find a more reliable WM.
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2020-04-25T23:28:00Z MichaelRaskin: refusenick: I think #stumpwm is a better place for discussion; I think you can try triggering StumpWM soft-restart from the TTY; and also, just open the Zoom link in Chromium and press «doesn't work» three times, then «join in browser» appears.
2020-04-25T23:29:16Z refusenick: MichaelRaskin: Fair enough. That's what I've been doing, but I also haven't built ungoogled-chromium yet. I'd like it if I could run the app and just the app under as much virtualization and sandboxing as possible. Yuck.
2020-04-25T23:29:54Z refusenick: (Also, I was looking for library suggestions for process isolation)
2020-04-25T23:29:55Z refusenick: b
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2020-04-26T00:43:25Z dlowe: So I'm poking at postmodern a bit for db stuff - does s-sql support SQL function calls?
2020-04-26T00:43:48Z dlowe: I can't find any examples or reference on how it would work
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2020-04-26T00:57:08Z dlowe: never mind, I figured it out
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2020-04-26T02:56:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-26T03:48:02Z Oladon: I feel like I'm missing something... can I specialize a method on a typed array? I can do (typep foo (array (unsigned-byte 8))), but that doesn't seem to be a valid parameter specializer.
2020-04-26T03:49:30Z Oladon: (er, insert a quote into the above, of course)
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2020-04-26T03:54:12Z beach: Oladon: You can only specialize to classes, not general types.
2020-04-26T03:54:50Z beach: Oladon: There are several libraries that can do what you want though.
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2020-04-26T04:04:37Z aeth: Oladon: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/
2020-04-26T04:04:54Z aeth: It's going to be slower than a defgeneric/defmethod unless inline, though.
2020-04-26T04:05:01Z aeth: And it can online inline based on type declarations, not type inference.
2020-04-26T04:05:07Z aeth: s/online inline/only inline/
2020-04-26T04:07:18Z aeth: Oladon: and it is probably actually called (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) like e.g. (typep (make-array 2 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)))
2020-04-26T04:07:53Z aeth: That's incredibly verbose but there are shortcuts you can do, like using DEFTYPE to create your own short names, e.g. (deftype octet () `(unsigned-byte 8)) is pretty common
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2020-04-26T04:35:04Z Oladon: Hrm, thanks aeth and beach
2020-04-26T04:35:17Z Oladon: I shall pursue these options :)
2020-04-26T04:50:08Z beach: Oladon: The system with classes was designed to be fast, it is going to be significantly slower to dispatch on arbitrary types.  That might not be a problem for you of course.  Just saying.
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2020-04-26T04:59:04Z beach: Am I understanding things right that the ELS presentations will be streamed, but that there is no audio nor video for the participants, including the presenters?
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2020-04-26T05:02:20Z beach: ... so that Q&A will be through the associated "stream chat"?
2020-04-26T05:05:42Z beach: I am guessing that this "stream chat" will allow neither my usual spell checker, nor my abbrevs.
2020-04-26T05:05:54Z beach: That should be, er, amusing.
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2020-04-26T05:13:09Z no-defun-allowed: beach: You can access the twitch chat via IRC.
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2020-04-26T05:18:01Z no-defun-allowed: Although, that is a bit messy, and really designed for running bots.
2020-04-26T05:20:19Z beach: I'll just suffer without my usual tools.
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2020-04-26T05:20:49Z beach: I can't help wondering why people do this to themselves, though.
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2020-04-26T05:21:19Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Can you confirm that I have understood the format?
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2020-04-26T05:26:16Z no-defun-allowed: I think that is how twitch works, yes.
2020-04-26T05:26:27Z beach: OK, thanks!
2020-04-26T05:29:49Z no-defun-allowed: It is for the better for more popular streams with...people that have less need to be polite.
2020-04-26T05:30:47Z beach: As an alternative to what.  I am not part of the set of "cool kids", so I am not following such things.  Too busy with my projects I guess.
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2020-04-26T05:42:28Z no-defun-allowed: It's frequently used to stream games to a lot of viewers, and gamers are very noisy. Having some thousands of them screaming into microphones would be sickening for everyone involved.
2020-04-26T05:43:06Z beach: I see.  Yes, I can very well imagine that.
2020-04-26T05:43:44Z no-defun-allowed: Or, I guess, the fundamental difference is that it is a one-to-many streaming system, unlike "conferencing" software which is many-to-many.
2020-04-26T05:44:23Z beach: Makes sense.
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2020-04-26T14:55:39Z francogrex: hi I am trying to sort this list (sort '((1 "spade") (2 "heart") (3 "spade") (4 "heart") (12 "heart") (6 "heart") (2 "spade"))  #'string<=  :key #'cadr)
2020-04-26T14:56:23Z Bike: sort can mutate the sequence, so you can't pass it a quoted list like that.
2020-04-26T14:56:54Z francogrex: i would like however to sort first on the cadr and then on the car, so that i have: ((1 "spade") (2 "spade")  (3 "spade") (2 "heart") (4 "heart") (6 "heart") (12 "heart"))
2020-04-26T14:57:26Z francogrex: Bike: yes I know this is a sample, not the code that will be finally used, the issue is what I wrote next
2020-04-26T14:57:52Z beach: francogrex: Use stable-sort and sort first on the CAR then on the CADR.
2020-04-26T14:58:19Z Bike: or you could pass a lexicographic predicate.
2020-04-26T14:58:27Z beach: Or that.
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2020-04-26T15:00:51Z francogrex:  
2020-04-26T15:00:51Z francogrex: (let* ((fst (stable-sort '((1 "spade") (2 "heart") (3 "spade") (4 "heart") (12 "heart") (6 "heart") (2 "spade"))  #'<=  :key #'car))  (sls (stable-sort fst #'string<= :key #'cadr))) sls)
2020-04-26T15:00:57Z francogrex: not the desired effect :(
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2020-04-26T15:01:18Z francogrex: ((12 "heart") (6 "heart") (4 "heart") (2 "heart") (3 "spade") (2 "spade") (1 "spade"))
2020-04-26T15:01:27Z beach: francogrex: You are still passing literal data to sort.
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2020-04-26T15:02:24Z phoe: use (stable-sort (copy-list '(...)) ...)
2020-04-26T15:02:25Z francogrex: beach, not the issue here
2020-04-26T15:02:34Z francogrex: is it?
2020-04-26T15:02:36Z beach: Maybe I got it the other way around with the two passes.
2020-04-26T15:02:36Z phoe: issue or not, it's undefined behaviour
2020-04-26T15:02:54Z phoe: it's hard to work with code that willingly invokes UB because implementations may do whatever at that point
2020-04-26T15:03:36Z francogrex: yeah. anyway why am I getting the list reversed?
2020-04-26T15:05:16Z francogrex: nope, inversing doesn't do the trick
2020-04-26T15:05:18Z Grue`: francogrex: https://github.com/tshatrov/ichiran/blob/a3e97abbd831d039386b58be2c8512634da138ca/dict-load.lisp#L34 here's a lexicographic sorter i wrote once
2020-04-26T15:05:33Z Grue`: sorry https://github.com/tshatrov/ichiran/blob/a3e97abbd831d039386b58be2c8512634da138ca/dict-load.lisp#L344
2020-04-26T15:05:52Z francogrex: (let* ((lst '((1 "spade") (2 "heart") (3 "spade") (4 "heart") (12 "heart") (6 "heart") (2 "spade")))
2020-04-26T15:05:52Z francogrex:   (fst (stable-sort lst #'string<= :key #'cadr))
2020-04-26T15:05:52Z francogrex:   (sls (stable-sort fst #'<= :key #'car)))
2020-04-26T15:05:55Z francogrex:   sls)
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2020-04-26T15:06:19Z phoe: francogrex: please use pastebin
2020-04-26T15:06:30Z Grue`: though I guess it wouldn't work since you have two different predicates
2020-04-26T15:06:33Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1777#1777
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2020-04-26T15:08:00Z francogrex: phoe, thanks but as you can see it's not what I asked for
2020-04-26T15:08:17Z francogrex: ((1 "spade") (2 "spade")  (3 "spade") ...
2020-04-26T15:08:26Z beach: francogrex: You have several sketches of solutions.  You just have to vary the parameters.
2020-04-26T15:08:55Z beach: francogrex: Experiment a bit.
2020-04-26T15:09:02Z francogrex: lisppaste is dead
2020-04-26T15:09:20Z beach: It has been for a long time.
2020-04-26T15:09:27Z francogrex: died long time ago and nobody revived it, although it was quite useful
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2020-04-26T15:10:33Z pjb: francogrex: what don't you understand in the concept of nasal daemons?
2020-04-26T15:11:21Z pjb: francogrex: use termbin.com; cat ~/bin/tb  -->   #!/bin/bash \n nc termbin.com 9999 | tr -d '\000'
2020-04-26T15:11:21Z pjb:  
2020-04-26T15:11:21Z pjb:  
2020-04-26T15:11:21Z pjb:  
2020-04-26T15:11:52Z phoe: francogrex: one second then; you want to sort the second first
2020-04-26T15:12:25Z francogrex: phoe yes please I am trying to dick around with the code you provided, it's like beach said
2020-04-26T15:12:31Z Grue`: francogrex: you probably should just use bucket sort for suits and then sort each suit, it will be more efficient
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2020-04-26T15:12:37Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1777#1778
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2020-04-26T15:13:17Z phoe: Grue`: if we're talking even about a full deck of cards which is 52 elements then we could probably care little about efficiency
2020-04-26T15:13:19Z pjb: francogrex: https://termbin.com/zfwi
2020-04-26T15:13:29Z francogrex: phoe: 👍
2020-04-26T15:13:39Z phoe: unless we're writing something that will sort cards for a living
2020-04-26T15:13:49Z francogrex: that was supposed to be a thumbs up emoji ...
2020-04-26T15:13:59Z phoe: it is, I can see it
2020-04-26T15:14:09Z pjb: francogrex: unless you want: https://termbin.com/t252
2020-04-26T15:14:25Z francogrex: ok :) on my emacs erc it's just garbled code... anyway yues thanks
2020-04-26T15:14:36Z pjb: francogrex: but I would rather use a more specific lessp function!
2020-04-26T15:16:04Z pjb: francogrex: https://termbin.com/397h
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2020-04-26T15:20:29Z francogrex: pjb: what i got from phoe next was exactly what I needed. thx
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2020-04-26T16:48:05Z Oladon: slyrus_: Around? Wondering if you'd mind sharing your bytea code for clsql.
2020-04-26T16:48:38Z Josh_2: How do I make a function available for a macro at compile time?
2020-04-26T16:49:20Z Shinmera: define it in a separate compilation unit (file), or wrap it in (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) and put it before the first macro use.
2020-04-26T16:49:33Z Shinmera: *somewhere before
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2020-04-26T16:51:27Z Josh_2: Shinmera: is this correct? https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1779#1779
2020-04-26T16:51:41Z Shinmera: no
2020-04-26T16:51:44Z Josh_2: rip
2020-04-26T16:51:56Z Shinmera: only the function needs to be in the eval-when.
2020-04-26T16:52:19Z Josh_2: Okay thanks
2020-04-26T16:52:21Z Josh_2: Got it
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2020-04-26T16:56:18Z phoe: the macro can be in the eval-when (:always), it'll just have no effect
2020-04-26T16:56:47Z phoe: so it's common to only put functions in there, and have macro definitions outside it
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2020-04-26T16:56:58Z Shinmera: better to limit the scope of eval-when as much as possible.
2020-04-26T16:57:03Z phoe: ^
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2020-04-26T17:00:02Z Oladon: phoe: Aha, it's you! Did you ever (~2018) get bytea working with clsql?
2020-04-26T17:00:22Z phoe: Oladon: wait who where
2020-04-26T17:00:38Z phoe: I don't remember this thing
2020-04-26T17:00:40Z Oladon: Back in 2018 you were asking about the bytea column type in Postgres
2020-04-26T17:00:57Z phoe: somewhere on github?
2020-04-26T17:01:00Z Oladon: IRC
2020-04-26T17:01:13Z Oladon: Lemme see if I left the log open
2020-04-26T17:01:15Z phoe: can't remember, show me the logs
2020-04-26T17:02:22Z Oladon: Bah, I misremembered. You were using Postmodern. https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp/2018-04-08#21761747;
2020-04-26T17:03:10Z phoe: sounds more like it
2020-04-26T17:03:33Z phoe: and I know why that is the case
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2020-04-26T17:04:07Z phoe: likely related to https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/issues/194
2020-04-26T17:04:12Z Oladon: ah
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2020-04-26T19:30:42Z MerlinTheWizard: Hey, sorry for the simple question, but I'm having trouble getting an answer from google...
2020-04-26T19:31:03Z MerlinTheWizard: I just need to store a character in a variable in common lisp.
2020-04-26T19:31:25Z MerlinTheWizard: If anyone could help me figure out how to do this, I'd appreciate it.
2020-04-26T19:31:43Z luis: MerlinTheWizard: what have you tried so far?
2020-04-26T19:32:47Z MerlinTheWizard: (let (charchar) '#\a
2020-04-26T19:32:47Z MerlinTheWizard: 	     charchar)
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2020-04-26T19:33:00Z MerlinTheWizard: Oops, that didn't paste right
2020-04-26T19:33:38Z MerlinTheWizard: (let (charchar) #\a
2020-04-26T19:33:41Z lieven: (let ((charchar #\a)) charchar)
2020-04-26T19:33:42Z MerlinTheWizard: charchar)
2020-04-26T19:33:46Z luis: MerlinTheWizard: that let syntax is wrong. It should be (let ((var-name value)) ...)
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2020-04-26T19:34:00Z lieven: and chars are self evaluating so no need for the quote
2020-04-26T19:34:19Z MerlinTheWizard: ok, could you explain the extra parenthesis please?
2020-04-26T19:34:31Z luis: MerlinTheWizard: it's let's syntax.
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2020-04-26T19:34:52Z MerlinTheWizard: luis, yes. I would remember it better if I understood the reason for it.
2020-04-26T19:35:21Z luis: MerlinTheWizard: well, you can define multiple variables (let ((var1 x) (var2 y)) ...) and so on.
2020-04-26T19:35:24Z MerlinTheWizard: I mean I understand basically that it's differentiating something, I just don't know what.
2020-04-26T19:35:37Z MerlinTheWizard: Ah, I see.
2020-04-26T19:35:38Z luis: MerlinTheWizard: it's grouping multiple variable bindings
2020-04-26T19:36:37Z MerlinTheWizard: Ok, I forgot let could do that.
2020-04-26T19:36:39Z lieven: and they don't do (let (var1 val1 var2 val2 ...) ....) because you can also not supply an initial binding so (let ((val1 t) (val2 42) val3 (val4 nil)) ...) is possible
2020-04-26T19:38:00Z MerlinTheWizard: ok
2020-04-26T19:38:01Z _death: hmm weird.. planet.lisp.org does not respect Update-Insecure-Requests (and no HSTS).. it's also not on the HTTPS Everywhere list, had to add a rule
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2020-04-26T19:40:49Z MerlinTheWizard: So is there a trick to learning the intricacies of common lisp syntax? Is it just 'keep going till you get it' or what?
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2020-04-26T19:41:34Z MerlinTheWizard: Maybe some exercises available online?
2020-04-26T19:42:11Z luis: MerlinTheWizard: books like Practical Common Lisp help!
2020-04-26T19:42:35Z MerlinTheWizard: luis, I'm reading that currently, feeling confused a lot...
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2020-04-26T19:43:07Z MerlinTheWizard: I'm sure I'll get it. I guess I just have to persevere.
2020-04-26T19:45:24Z saturn2: MerlinTheWizard: you could also use an editor that reminds you
2020-04-26T19:45:43Z saturn2: or type (describe 'let) in the repl
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2020-04-26T19:48:37Z MerlinTheWizard: saturn2, in my SLIME + SBCL in emacs (describe 'let) gives me this:
2020-04-26T19:48:40Z MerlinTheWizard:  LET ({(var [value]) | var}*) declaration* form*
2020-04-26T19:48:57Z MerlinTheWizard: What do the curly braces mean? Does it just indicate an expression, or what?
2020-04-26T19:49:29Z phoe: they mean that you can use any number of what's inside
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2020-04-26T19:49:31Z saturn2: the curly braces indicate a section that can be repeated
2020-04-26T19:49:41Z phoe: or, in other words, that you can bind multiple variables in there
2020-04-26T19:49:48Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Backus%E2%80%93Naur_form
2020-04-26T19:49:53Z phoe: (let ((x 42) (y :forty-two) (z 42.0) ...) ...)
2020-04-26T19:50:07Z MerlinTheWizard: Oh, I see.
2020-04-26T19:51:17Z MerlinTheWizard: but I was under the impression that the '*' was what indicated possible repetition. Do the braces just group and then the '*' indicates repetition, or what?
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2020-04-26T19:51:33Z MerlinTheWizard: Oh, EBNF, I'll have to look at that.
2020-04-26T19:51:58Z saturn2: yes, the braces just group, sorry
2020-04-26T19:52:12Z MerlinTheWizard: Ok, good to know. Thanks.
2020-04-26T19:52:12Z phoe: actually the wiki page says that {...} is repetition
2020-04-26T19:52:33Z MerlinTheWizard: Really? What the heck is '*' then?
2020-04-26T19:52:41Z phoe: the star in there seems like a pleonasm
2020-04-26T19:53:16Z phoe: so it might be confusing
2020-04-26T19:53:54Z MerlinTheWizard: phoe, so it's not really using EBNF?
2020-04-26T19:54:12Z MerlinTheWizard: Can I set it to just give me EBNF somehow?
2020-04-26T19:54:26Z phoe: it clearly attempts to, but I have no idea if it's 100% successful in compliance
2020-04-26T19:54:29Z phoe: clhs let
2020-04-26T19:54:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2020-04-26T19:54:31Z Bike: "set it"? it's just text.
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2020-04-26T19:54:46Z phoe: hah, CLHS does the same
2020-04-26T19:55:10Z MerlinTheWizard: Maybe it's a different Backus-Naur, or a different notation?
2020-04-26T19:55:18Z Bike: clhs 1.4.1.2
2020-04-26T19:55:18Z specbot: Modified BNF Syntax: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_dab.htm
2020-04-26T19:55:36Z saturn2: EBNF is just a convention, CLHS and SBCL use a slightly different version from the standard one
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2020-04-26T19:56:24Z saturn2: or the usual one, rather
2020-04-26T19:56:36Z saturn2: since there's no real standard
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2020-04-26T20:01:34Z MerlinTheWizard: Ok, so it looks like they all just use their own alternative to EBNF, but I guess they don't define it.
2020-04-26T20:03:05Z Bike: well, practically speaking it's generally unambiguous for a human reader. like the LET page has a bunch of examples.
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2020-04-26T20:06:10Z MerlinTheWizard: Bike, I'm just not sure why someone would create a rigorous syntax and not fully describe it anywhere. So maybe it's not a rigorous, formal system at all?
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2020-04-26T20:06:38Z MerlinTheWizard: So like a pseudo-grammar or something?
2020-04-26T20:07:06Z Bike: it's not really that rigorous, no. the standard is intended for human readers and would not be suitable for formal use without a lot of work.
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2020-04-26T20:08:23Z MerlinTheWizard: Ok, well, I'll just do my best with what I've got then. Maybe I'll create my own hyperspec later once I get this stuff down.
2020-04-26T20:09:03Z Bike: feel free to ask more questions about confusing points.
2020-04-26T20:11:12Z saturn2: i suppose the main motivation for the difference is that usually EBNF uses parentheses for grouping, and that would be very inconvenient for describing lisp forms
2020-04-26T20:12:14Z Bike: tru
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2020-04-26T20:16:36Z MerlinTheWizard: Bike, thank you. I'm sure I will.
2020-04-26T20:16:50Z MerlinTheWizard: saturn2, I was just going to make a similar comment.
2020-04-26T20:17:19Z MerlinTheWizard: And it seems like EBNF was actually designed for human consumption to a certain extent: https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-14977-paper.pdf
2020-04-26T20:17:34Z Bike: to be honest, i'd say the syntax is usually pretty simple. i mean, it is lisp. the confusing points there are declarations and lambda lists, and they both have specific pages explaining them.
2020-04-26T20:18:01Z Bike: other than that there are only fairly minor irregularities, like restart-case.
2020-04-26T20:18:05Z buffergn0me: LOOP is the worst offender.
2020-04-26T20:18:13Z Bike: oh. right. also loop.
2020-04-26T20:18:49Z Bike: i've gotten to the point i can usually figure anything out just by looking at the grammar, but that could just be stockholm syndrome
2020-04-26T20:19:04Z MerlinTheWizard: Bike, CL syntax is confusing because analogous functions can differ in how arguments are ordered.
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2020-04-26T20:19:15Z MerlinTheWizard: Bike, Stockholm syndrome, that's funny.
2020-04-26T20:19:20Z Bike: like elt and nth? are there other ones?
2020-04-26T20:19:25Z Bike: i mean, elt and nth is definitely bad, though.
2020-04-26T20:19:58Z MerlinTheWizard: I'm not sure, I'm a noob. But it's confusing to me so far and I still haven't got the syntax even halfway through PCL.
2020-04-26T20:20:06Z MerlinTheWizard: Frustrating, but I'll figure it out.
2020-04-26T20:20:38Z selwyn: aref and nth
2020-04-26T20:21:03Z MerlinTheWizard: PCL should have been written better. I'm going to follow up with 'On Lisp'.
2020-04-26T20:21:25Z Josh_2: wat
2020-04-26T20:21:39Z Josh_2: what is confusing about (<fun name> <args>) ?
2020-04-26T20:21:41Z phoe: On Lisp is actually an advanced book
2020-04-26T20:21:42Z buffergn0me: Same. If I don't have SLIME giving the function signature in the message area, I have to go look up the argument order half the time
2020-04-26T20:21:47Z phoe: Josh_2: please read the context
2020-04-26T20:21:53Z Josh_2: reeeee
2020-04-26T20:21:55Z Bike: function call syntax is easy, but macros and special operators are nontrivial.
2020-04-26T20:22:06Z phoe: it's not about (<fun name> <args>), it's about <args> in this case
2020-04-26T20:22:17Z phoe: and also what Bike said
2020-04-26T20:22:52Z MerlinTheWizard: phoe, 'On Lisp' was recommended by a reviewer on amazon as a second lisp book.
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2020-04-26T20:23:08Z MerlinTheWizard: Just looking at the table of contents, it looks very appropriate for me after PCL.
2020-04-26T20:23:14Z phoe: hm, it sounds okay - it pays a lot of attention to Lisp macros
2020-04-26T20:23:21Z Bike: there's also https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf, which is intended for people new to programming. I haven't read it myself.
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2020-04-26T20:23:28Z MerlinTheWizard: Yes, I need about 100 pages of lisp macros...
2020-04-26T20:23:47Z phoe: Gentle has a very very slow pace that might be frustrating for someone who's already programmed a bit
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2020-04-26T20:23:52Z saturn2: it really should've been titled On Lisp Macros
2020-04-26T20:24:30Z Josh_2: Bike: It's a very good introduction to programming
2020-04-26T20:24:35Z Josh_2: Bike: it was my first programming book
2020-04-26T20:24:49Z buffergn0me: I read A Gentle Introduction last year, 15 years after starting programming and Common Lisp. Learned a couple of things.
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2020-04-26T20:28:36Z selwyn: is the style of 'on lisp' typical of common lisp of that era, or is it just trying to be scheme? i am thinking about the emphasis on recursion in particular
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2020-04-26T20:29:27Z Bike: https://courses.cs.northwestern.edu/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html
2020-04-26T20:29:37Z Bike: so no, i don't think it's normal
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2020-04-26T20:30:46Z selwyn: thanks for link
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2020-04-26T20:34:08Z Shinmera: getf/assoc/gethash.
2020-04-26T20:34:15Z Shinmera: ah fuck, was scrolled up, sorry.
2020-04-26T20:34:40Z Bike: oh, about argument order? you're right, though.
2020-04-26T20:34:49Z Shinmera: yes.
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2020-04-26T20:39:54Z Grue`: i even mix up PUSH argument order all the time
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2020-04-26T20:46:48Z Grue`: is (boundp '*) guaranteed to be true even outside of REPL?
2020-04-26T20:47:41Z Bike: Hm. I suppose not.
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2020-04-26T20:49:17Z phoe: clhs *
2020-04-26T20:49:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_st.htm
2020-04-26T20:50:12Z Grue`: I'm thinking of defining a function with "&optional (some-arg *)" so that I can run it on previous REPL value but I wonder if it will freak out the compiler in some contexts
2020-04-26T20:50:16Z phoe: nothing seems to explicitly require it
2020-04-26T20:50:53Z Grue`: it says the initial value is "implementation-dependent" but doesn't say it can be unbound
2020-04-26T20:51:09Z phoe: it says it's "maintained by the REPL", whatever it means
2020-04-26T20:51:48Z phoe: nonetheless, I wouldn't do that; the REPL variables are supposed to stay in the REPL, and typing an additional " *" in the repl to turn (foo ...) into (foo ... *) seems cleaner and not much more effort-expensive to me
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2020-04-26T21:03:38Z Bike: though the only way you're going to be outside a repl is something like --quit or in a different thread, in which case i don't know what (foo) would be expected to do anyway.
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2020-04-26T21:04:10Z Shinmera: I suppose stuff like --eval is also not necessarily 'in the repl'
2020-04-26T21:11:14Z jmercouris: how to prevent format from printing shortened version of long list?
2020-04-26T21:11:24Z jmercouris: you know how it does ... for very long things
2020-04-26T21:11:38Z phoe: clhs *print-length*
2020-04-26T21:11:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_lev.htm
2020-04-26T21:11:52Z pjb: jmercouris: the default setting of the *print-…* variables is IMPLEMENTATION DEPENDENT!
2020-04-26T21:12:02Z pjb: jmercouris: therefore you are advised to set them yourself in your rc files!
2020-04-26T21:12:13Z jmercouris: I see
2020-04-26T21:12:18Z jmercouris: thanks for the tips
2020-04-26T21:13:18Z phoe: or to create your own with-* macro that mimics with-standard-io-syntax, except it has your own values for print-related dynavars (and possibly for read-related ones too)
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2020-04-26T21:13:45Z pjb: Grue`: well, clhs * says that it has an initial-value that is implementation-dependent.  I don't understand this to mean that it can be unbound.
2020-04-26T21:14:29Z pjb: Grue`: notably, after (values) * is specified to be bound to nil, not to be unbound.
2020-04-26T21:14:44Z pjb: Grue`: therefore I would think that it's conforming to expect it to be always bound.
2020-04-26T21:15:09Z pjb: Grue`: but this doesn't say anything about what it's value is when you're outside of the repl, or if it's the form to be evaluated in the repl.
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2020-04-26T21:15:56Z jmercouris: turns out I had set it in my rc file and that was causingp roblems in my program
2020-04-26T21:15:58Z jmercouris: so I let bound it to nil
2020-04-26T21:16:20Z jmercouris: don't remember why I had done that
2020-04-26T21:16:25Z jmercouris: probably didn't want masive lists printing in the REPL
2020-04-26T21:20:19Z Bike: yeah, i have that in my rc for that reason.
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2020-04-26T21:39:20Z pjb: yes, of course, the advice of setting them in your rc files implies that you REMEMBER that you've set them and to what values…
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2020-04-26T21:46:53Z jmercouris: I know allegro and lisp works both have prolog extensions
2020-04-26T21:47:12Z jmercouris: anyone have experience with them? what can one do more easily with an expert system in lisp?
2020-04-26T21:47:18Z jmercouris: i’m looking for some inspiration
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2020-04-26T21:49:15Z Bike: i know sjl's prolog was for game AI. not really an expert system, i guess
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2020-04-26T21:49:33Z Bike: https://github.com/sjl/temperance that is
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2020-04-26T21:53:04Z jmercouris: that gif is very irritating
2020-04-26T21:53:07Z jmercouris: interesting project
2020-04-26T21:53:18Z Bike: the ELS talk was cool too.
2020-04-26T21:54:11Z jmercouris: maybe one could recreate clippy in prolog
2020-04-26T21:54:19Z jmercouris: or bonzai buddy lol
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2020-04-26T21:56:49Z kpgiskpg: Any suggestion for dealing with nickname conflicts between dependencies?
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2020-04-26T21:58:18Z phoe: kpgiskpg: RENAME-PACKAGE is working but ugly
2020-04-26T21:58:28Z phoe: do you mean dependencies as in quicklisp systems?
2020-04-26T21:59:19Z Shinmera: kpgiskpg: get the maintainers to change the names.
2020-04-26T21:59:21Z kpgiskpg: Dependencies I've defined in my asdf file. When I try to load my package in slime, it errors out saying "Q is already a nickname for RTG-MATH.QUATERNIONS".
2020-04-26T21:59:36Z phoe: kpgiskpg: ooh, so you control all the packages?
2020-04-26T21:59:51Z phoe: if so, use package-local nicknames instead of standard nicknames
2020-04-26T21:59:57Z kpgiskpg: Nope, I'm depending on 'cl-threadpool', which depends on 'queues'.
2020-04-26T22:00:19Z phoe: PLNs are still a choice then
2020-04-26T22:00:31Z phoe: AFAIR they're capable of shadowing standard nicknames
2020-04-26T22:01:24Z kpgiskpg: That still applies if all of the nicknames are defined in my dependencies?
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2020-04-26T22:02:16Z phoe: you'll want to drop the global Q nickname from your package and instead locally nickname that package in the package that uses it
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2020-04-26T22:02:43Z kpgiskpg: Wow, that is indeed ugly. I'll give it a shot, thanks.
2020-04-26T22:02:52Z phoe: nah, it's the cleaner option
2020-04-26T22:03:13Z phoe: mutating global state via RENAME-PACKAGE is the uglier option
2020-04-26T22:03:50Z phoe: (defpackage foo (:use :cl) (:local-nicknames (:a :alexandria))) and suddenly I can do a:assoc-value
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2020-04-26T22:16:23Z kpgiskpg: Do you have an example to hand of how add-package-local-nickname and remove-package-local-nickname would be incorporated into an asdf file?
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2020-04-27T00:58:20Z bitmapper: great
2020-04-27T00:58:21Z bitmapper: i literally cannot use the free version of lispworks/allegro cl because of macos catalina
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2020-04-27T02:28:21Z pfdietz: I wonder if there should be a :standard-package-nicknames option, and a :use-standard-nicknames.   The former attacjes a standard PLN to a package; the latter says use that package's standard PLNs as PLNs for it in this package.
2020-04-27T02:28:55Z pfdietz: If the standard PLNs ever collide in another package, the user can manually define different ones.
2020-04-27T02:29:38Z pfdietz: I really should get to sleep.   ELS is soon.
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2020-04-27T03:10:21Z slyrus_: Oladon: hey
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2020-04-27T03:29:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-27T04:45:30Z MerlinTheWizard: Hey, so there should probably be a list of lisp resources in the channel banner.
2020-04-27T04:45:56Z MerlinTheWizard: And I'll put in my vote for the Common Lisp Quick Reference: http://clqr.boundp.org/
2020-04-27T04:46:24Z MerlinTheWizard: It's beautifully laid out and designed for printing or reading on your computer.
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2020-04-27T04:47:53Z verisimilitude: You can specialize a method on those array specializations required, Oladon, such as BIT-VECTOR and STRING, but anything else is nonportable or bothersome.
2020-04-27T04:50:05Z p_l: MerlinTheWizard: due to how big the channel topic gets, I think I'd rather make a link to a minimal site listing such things, preferably one general to #lisp itself
2020-04-27T04:50:52Z verisimilitude: I've such a resource, but it's only intended for my Lisp group.
2020-04-27T04:51:39Z MerlinTheWizard: p_l, could you do that?
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2020-04-27T04:53:36Z MerlinTheWizard: It seems common lisp is probably not getting as many users as it could be because information about the language just seems to be scattered around the internet mostly. A lot of the bigger "hubs' and "authorities" are weirdly formatted, ancient looking sites.
2020-04-27T04:54:19Z verisimilitude: Why would the number of people using Common Lisp be an issue?
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2020-04-27T04:56:46Z MerlinTheWizard: verisimilitude, with more users comes more resources for people wanting to use the language... I'm a new CL user and I need resources. CLHS is unfortunately proprietary and weirdly formatted. More users means CL will have more life on the internet and better support.
2020-04-27T04:57:17Z verisimilitude: I can read the CLHS in most any WWW browser ever made, so it's nice.
2020-04-27T04:57:31Z no-defun-allowed: I think having information being "scattered" is a good thing; in the sense that having fewer coherent outlets would require having fewer outlooks on the language and how to use it.
2020-04-27T04:58:07Z verisimilitude: I agree with no-defun-allowed; I usually ignore this channel, because I dislike Freenode and have my own entirely separate Lisp venues, as an example.
2020-04-27T04:58:32Z MerlinTheWizard: no-defun-allowed I would call that a non-sequitur. My use of "scattered" here means "disconnected", not "decentralized".
2020-04-27T04:59:02Z no-defun-allowed: In the vain of http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/, it is also quite easy to make the CLHS look pretty nice with a few lines of CSS.
2020-04-27T04:59:03Z MerlinTheWizard: verisimilitude, you are preferring "private" to "public". I like "public" better.
2020-04-27T04:59:33Z MerlinTheWizard: no-defun-allowed, can you put it all on a single page with a little CSS?
2020-04-27T04:59:33Z verisimilitude: I like that Common Lisp is a standardized language without ``official'' resources.
2020-04-27T05:00:07Z verisimilitude: This channel is no more legitimate than my main IRC channel on a different network, and I like that.
2020-04-27T05:00:14Z MerlinTheWizard: No, it has official resources, who will sell you a badly scanned printout of the standard for $30.
2020-04-27T05:00:28Z verisimilitude: The standard document is clearly excluded.
2020-04-27T05:00:49Z verisimilitude: The opposite is garbage such as Rust where there's an official ``subreddit'' or whatever.
2020-04-27T05:00:53Z MerlinTheWizard: CLHS is based on the standard.
2020-04-27T05:01:03Z no-defun-allowed: A single page? Not easily, the CLHS is 2,300 hyperlinked documents, which was quite impressive when it was released.
2020-04-27T05:01:28Z MerlinTheWizard: no-defun-allowed, that's my main issue with it.
2020-04-27T05:01:53Z verisimilitude: I've a copy of ``ANSI Common Lisp'' I use as a reference at times.
2020-04-27T05:01:56Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, the standard costs money to access because it's a proper ANSI standard and all, and the CLHS is equivalent to the standard from what I have heard.
2020-04-27T05:02:55Z MerlinTheWizard: verisimilitude, the presence of one "authority" doesn't exclude the presence of any others: https://nlp.stanford.edu/IR-book/html/htmledition/hubs-and-authorities-1.html
2020-04-27T05:02:57Z no-defun-allowed: "M-x hyperspec-lookup RET cons" is probably the easiest way to search that document.
2020-04-27T05:03:23Z verisimilitude: Sure, MerlinTheWizard, but it does lessen the legitimacy of any others.
2020-04-27T05:03:29Z MerlinTheWizard: Nope
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2020-04-27T05:03:33Z MerlinTheWizard: That's illogical
2020-04-27T05:03:54Z verisimilitude: I could be ostracized here, and I wouldn't even care; in other languages, being ostracized is effectively a ``death-sentence''.
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2020-04-27T05:04:34Z MerlinTheWizard: Ostracism has little to do with the connectivity properties of a network of information sources.
2020-04-27T05:04:56Z no-defun-allowed: If one service is more popular than the other, it will attract more users just by being more popular. Not that you use e-mail these days, but how much mail do you get from people that isn't from their ISP's email server or from gmail?
2020-04-27T05:04:58Z verisimilitude: We may not be understanding each other, perhaps.
2020-04-27T05:05:20Z p_l: I see silly political discussion centered about not doing things, where people talk past each other on completely unrelated topics that don't actually conflict
2020-04-27T05:05:23Z verisimilitude: Most of my mail doesn't come from gmail, once I delete the spam, almost all of which comes from gmail.
2020-04-27T05:06:31Z MerlinTheWizard: "authority" just means a good source of information as presented in the linked webpage. One good source of information does not cancel out another.
2020-04-27T05:06:45Z MerlinTheWizard: So, yeah. We're talking past each other.
2020-04-27T05:07:11Z beach: MerlinTheWizard: There are many theories about why Common Lisp is not as popular as some might want it to be.  But I can assure you that having information that is less scattered will not have any significant impact on the popularity of the language.
2020-04-27T05:07:16Z no-defun-allowed: (And, well, our ISP's email server is horrible as it has tiny quotas, has a mediocre spam filter, and accepts mail from phony email addresses. Someone told the users of that "Here's your email!!" and they didn't bother to look for anything better.)
2020-04-27T05:07:29Z verisimilitude: Whatever; back to the beginning, Common Lisp being popular or not isn't going to have much of an impact, especially if most new people just want to write libraries that are actually C libraries or other such things.
2020-04-27T05:08:07Z no-defun-allowed: (In that sense, if we assert one platform to be "the" platform, then people are not going to look at alternatives, regardless of quality.)
2020-04-27T05:08:30Z MerlinTheWizard: beach, I don't know about that. If people go to the irc channel on freenode because they were looking for good info on CL, and they find one or more solid links right off the bat, it makes them more likely to use the language.
2020-04-27T05:08:48Z MerlinTheWizard: no-defun-allowed, different people are different.
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2020-04-27T05:09:35Z no-defun-allowed: How does one find #lisp without looking for information on Lisp? I suppose it's possible you could guess the name, but it's not likely.
2020-04-27T05:09:57Z verisimilitude: Perhaps the user wants a channel for speach impediments.
2020-04-27T05:10:15Z MerlinTheWizard: My point exactly. If you came here, you were probably looking for something.
2020-04-27T05:10:23Z beach: MerlinTheWizard: I seriously doubt it would have any significant impact.  There are some very strong psychological forces at play that prevent people from using Common Lisp.
2020-04-27T05:10:51Z verisimilitude: Why did you start learning CL, MerlinTheWizard?
2020-04-27T05:11:04Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think "if you came here, then you were looking for something" and "if you were looking for something, then you came here" are the same.
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2020-04-27T05:11:21Z MerlinTheWizard: I'm interested in functional programming and I want a language that let's me do just about anything.]
2020-04-27T05:11:38Z beach: MerlinTheWizard: Well, Common Lisp is not a functional programming language in that sense.
2020-04-27T05:12:01Z no-defun-allowed gets back to making a lightning talk presentation.
2020-04-27T05:12:04Z beach: MerlinTheWizard: It is a multi-paradigm language.  In particular, it has excellent support for object-oriented programming.
2020-04-27T05:12:09Z MerlinTheWizard: no-defun-allowed, most IRC channels that I've frequented were not "leaf nodes" in that sense. They had useful resources available.
2020-04-27T05:12:23Z saturn2: is cliki.net "weirdly formatted and ancient looking"?
2020-04-27T05:12:30Z p_l: cliki is mostly dead
2020-04-27T05:12:34Z p_l: that's bigger problem
2020-04-27T05:12:35Z MerlinTheWizard: I'm not that interested in the OO aspect.
2020-04-27T05:12:48Z MerlinTheWizard: ^
2020-04-27T05:12:53Z beach: MerlinTheWizard: If you are interested in functional programming, then something like Haskell or Clojure might be better for you.
2020-04-27T05:13:04Z MerlinTheWizard: I'll check out haskell later.
2020-04-27T05:13:08Z verisimilitude: Well, cliki doesn't ask for my email or other information to make changes, display advertisements, and I presume it's not trying to track me, so it's outdated, yes.
2020-04-27T05:13:15Z no-defun-allowed: verisimilitude: Heh.
2020-04-27T05:13:43Z saturn2: it doesn't use bootstrap.js or material design so it must be bad
2020-04-27T05:13:59Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not good at writing long texts, but apparently I struggle to write short texts too. Fun stuff.
2020-04-27T05:14:33Z verisimilitude: Try doing something else until inspiration strikes you, no-defun-allowed; would you like some more in-depth writing advice from me?
2020-04-27T05:14:50Z p_l: saturn2: the issue is the content, not everything else
2020-04-27T05:15:25Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks, but there isn't really time. I'm almost done though.
2020-04-27T05:15:40Z verisimilitude: Alright.
2020-04-27T05:15:41Z MerlinTheWizard: Yeah, I like the cliki layout just fine. But the web of CL content should be larger, more well connected, more up to date, and less proprietary.
2020-04-27T05:15:42Z saturn2: p_l: what do you mean by "dead"?
2020-04-27T05:16:01Z verisimilitude: I prefer the distributed ``random guys website'' model, MerlinTheWizard.
2020-04-27T05:16:20Z verisimilitude: It's a shame so much CL is on github.
2020-04-27T05:16:22Z p_l: saturn2: It pretty much stopped being updated much, especially after ASDF-Install stopped being a thing
2020-04-27T05:16:29Z MerlinTheWizard: verisimilitude, how do you find the "random guys website"? Can you tell me how many of them there are?
2020-04-27T05:16:39Z verisimilitude: No, and that's part of the point.
2020-04-27T05:16:52Z MerlinTheWizard: So it's better if information is harder to find?
2020-04-27T05:16:55Z verisimilitude: One finds such websites by looking.
2020-04-27T05:17:09Z no-defun-allowed: You use a search engine. There's probably at least two or three at the very least.
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2020-04-27T05:17:17Z MerlinTheWizard: That knowledge I had before I even came to this IRC channel.
2020-04-27T05:17:26Z verisimilitude: Being scattered and distributed is better than everyone being on Facebook or similar filth, yes.
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2020-04-27T05:17:44Z MerlinTheWizard: I didn't say "put all the information on facebook"
2020-04-27T05:17:50Z MerlinTheWizard: Again, talking past each other.
2020-04-27T05:18:08Z MerlinTheWizard: Wrong comparison. Strawman.
2020-04-27T05:18:11Z verisimilitude: That's an example of centralization, is all.
2020-04-27T05:18:38Z verisimilitude: Anyway, good luck with finding a Common Lisp programmer who cares much about this issue, MerlinTheWizard.
2020-04-27T05:18:52Z MerlinTheWizard: And I told you, I wasn't arguing for more centralization. Just more and better "authorities" and "hubs", as defined in the linked page.
2020-04-27T05:19:19Z MerlinTheWizard: Obviously, you speak for all of them, king verisimilitude.
2020-04-27T05:19:53Z MerlinTheWizard: The people who built, cliki, I'm pretty sure they cared about this issue.
2020-04-27T05:20:12Z MerlinTheWizard: So you've been making nothing but ridiculous points this whole time.
2020-04-27T05:20:23Z verisimilitude: This is just the general attitude I've observed over time.
2020-04-27T05:20:44Z MerlinTheWizard: I'd guess your perspective is rather biased, not to mention short sighted.
2020-04-27T05:20:48Z verisimilitude: Also, if you want to deal in functional programming, also consider Scheme.
2020-04-27T05:20:56Z verisimilitude: I disagree with several of those here, yes.
2020-04-27T05:21:00Z MerlinTheWizard: I do. But I want to do stuff.
2020-04-27T05:21:11Z MerlinTheWizard: So it's CL for now.
2020-04-27T05:21:39Z p_l: MerlinTheWizard: there are some attempts to make "friendly" first contact website (for example, http://lisp-lang.org) but I think careful shepherding of Wikipedia might be of more benefit to people in first contact
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2020-04-27T05:22:08Z MerlinTheWizard: p_l, precisely. People need "hubs" so they can get started.
2020-04-27T05:22:25Z verisimilitude: I didn't need a ``hub''.
2020-04-27T05:22:43Z p_l: verisimilitude: great for you, Oh Great Gatekeeper
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2020-04-27T05:22:46Z verisimilitude: Or, at the least, I wouldn't look back on it like that.
2020-04-27T05:22:52Z MerlinTheWizard: LOL
2020-04-27T05:23:02Z saturn2: i think hubs are good
2020-04-27T05:23:03Z MerlinTheWizard: Admission of biased and skewed perspective.
2020-04-27T05:23:18Z MerlinTheWizard: A CL user thinks hubs are good? AMAZING!
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2020-04-27T05:24:12Z p_l: having a FAQ link in topic is, IMO, perfectly normal and could fulfill both easier ways to find #lisp (due to findability by web crawlers) as well as serve as good point to get people to jump further from
2020-04-27T05:24:31Z MerlinTheWizard: Yes, I agree.
2020-04-27T05:26:20Z saturn2: there aren't many rewards for creating beginner resources, i guess, without a source of capital that needs to grow the user base
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2020-04-27T05:38:54Z beach: So that was yet another "Here is what YOU should do to make Common Lisp more attractive".
2020-04-27T05:40:12Z verisimilitude: Oh, that happens often here?
2020-04-27T05:40:28Z beach: Regularly, but perhaps not often.
2020-04-27T05:40:28Z no-defun-allowed: Infrequently (or when I'm asleep and haven't checked the logs), yes.
2020-04-27T05:40:36Z verisimilitude: How amusing.
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2020-04-27T05:42:28Z beach: They all claim some deep understanding as to why Common Lisp is not more popular, and it is always a single issue that is easy to fix if the person in charge would just put in a little more work.
2020-04-27T05:44:25Z beach: And, of course, they all assume that Common Lisp popularity is the main goal for everyone here, and that we are all quite puzzled as to why it is not more popular.
2020-04-27T05:45:24Z verisimilitude: While entertaining here, I'm glad to be free of such ignorance in my usual venue.
2020-04-27T05:46:22Z verisimilitude: Not a single language I know has me caring about anyone else using it.
2020-04-27T05:46:45Z verisimilitude: This is probably inconceivable for plenty of inexperienced newcomers.
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2020-04-27T05:47:12Z verisimilitude: Just today I saw some idiot claiming everyone must copy and paste code from Stack Overflow.
2020-04-27T05:47:44Z no-defun-allowed: "How did they make Stack Overflow without using Stack Overflow?" but in an actually funny context.
2020-04-27T05:48:04Z verisimilitude: Oh, that was an actual question on the site?
2020-04-27T05:49:00Z verisimilitude: Imagine deriving any ego from programming, and then just copying and pasting or gluing together other people's code.
2020-04-27T05:49:18Z no-defun-allowed: No, it's just a joke that is repeated quite frequently in "mainstream" programming humour places; up there with having most-positive-fixnum compiler errors and trying to balance parens.
2020-04-27T05:49:40Z verisimilitude: Oh, alright.  Stack Overflow can be a decent source of entertainment with such questions.
2020-04-27T05:49:58Z no-defun-allowed: I'm sure someone asked that, though.
2020-04-27T05:50:21Z p_l: beach: I felt it more as interested newbie, if little harsh at edges, asking based on something they found lacking
2020-04-27T05:50:26Z verisimilitude: My favorite is the C++ programmer whose family tree invariants were violated by incest.
2020-04-27T05:50:48Z no-defun-allowed: Wow.
2020-04-27T05:51:04Z verisimilitude: Oh, unaware; care for the link?
2020-04-27T05:51:59Z verisimilitude: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6163683
2020-04-27T05:52:11Z no-defun-allowed: I meant that I haven't actually seen it, but it's likely someone asked that out of the however many questions that have been asked.
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2020-04-27T05:53:42Z beach: p_l: You mean MerlinTheWizard?  Sure, but instead of humility, we often see this behavior, insisting that WE fix things so that the obvious problems of similar newbies will disappear.
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2020-04-27T05:55:34Z p_l: beach: I didn't read it as "insisting that we do it" but asking if it wouldn't be useful. The discussion immediately derailed with push that not only it's not useful, it should be abhorred because <start a long political nonsense>
2020-04-27T05:55:58Z p_l: and this spiraled in vicious cycle further
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2020-04-27T06:03:17Z no-defun-allowed: How long should my lightning talk be?
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2020-04-27T06:03:39Z verisimilitude: What's a lightning talk; I take it by the name it's intended to be quick.
2020-04-27T06:04:19Z verisimilitude: If this is the only consideration, then I'd make it as short as I could, no-defun-allowed.
2020-04-27T06:04:23Z no-defun-allowed: A format of presentation that ELS has, which is pretty short.
2020-04-27T06:04:45Z no-defun-allowed: Someone suggested that I could write one for this year, given that it will be presented online.
2020-04-27T06:05:21Z beach: no-defun-allowed: 5 minutes max I think.
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2020-04-27T06:05:33Z phoe: yes, a hard limit of 5 minutes
2020-04-27T06:05:40Z phoe: also good morning
2020-04-27T06:05:45Z no-defun-allowed: Got it.
2020-04-27T06:05:53Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: target 2 minutes
2020-04-27T06:05:54Z verisimilitude: Oh, that's right, conventions are being shuttered now; yes, considering this, make it as short as possible, no-defun-allowed.
2020-04-27T06:06:13Z p_l: the remaining 3 will be eaten by technical issues and/or heckling
2020-04-27T06:06:21Z verisimilitude: If you make the shortest one with useful information, it's an achievement.
2020-04-27T06:06:25Z no-defun-allowed: I see.
2020-04-27T06:06:41Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: especially given the broadcast nature of this year's ELS
2020-04-27T06:06:41Z phoe: verisimilitude: it's weird to hear "conventions are being shuttered" about something that has been going on unchanged for at least several ELSes
2020-04-27T06:06:58Z verisimilitude: Was this always an online event?
2020-04-27T06:07:10Z beach: No, first time.
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2020-04-27T06:07:13Z p_l: my normal methods of estimation quickly go into negative time for lightning talks
2020-04-27T06:07:35Z verisimilitude: Why would it be strange to read, then?
2020-04-27T06:08:30Z beach: What do you mean?
2020-04-27T06:08:51Z verisimilitude: I ask phoe, to clarify.
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2020-04-27T06:09:50Z phoe: oh, you mean *that* sort of conventions - sorry, don't mind me, I'm waking up
2020-04-27T06:09:53Z beach: verisimilitude: phoe is just saying that 5-minute lightning talks have been a feature of ELS for many year.  Perhaps since the beginning.
2020-04-27T06:10:11Z phoe: while also trying to read the sad stuff in the chat log up there
2020-04-27T06:10:12Z verisimilitude: Oh, I see the misunderstanding now.
2020-04-27T06:10:47Z verisimilitude: I referred to events and he practices, yes.
2020-04-27T06:10:58Z no-defun-allowed: Great, this looks like a ten-minute presentation so far.
2020-04-27T06:11:37Z verisimilitude: What's the topic?
2020-04-27T06:11:37Z beach: :(
2020-04-27T06:12:19Z no-defun-allowed: verisimilitude: I'm trying to give a high level introduction to my Netfarm distributed object system. It took me two minutes to explain the aim and the centralised/federated/distributed terms, which is 1/5 of my presentation.
2020-04-27T06:13:11Z verisimilitude: I suppose I can see why shortening that would be difficult.
2020-04-27T06:14:51Z beach: no-defun-allowed: The trick is to realize that you don't have to provide all the information.
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2020-04-27T06:23:29Z no-defun-allowed: 8:20 for the whole presentation.
2020-04-27T06:24:29Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Yeah, I want to mention the "distributed hash table", "object system", "script machine" and some of the "other stuff" with some examples and definitions, which is tricky.
2020-04-27T06:24:50Z no-defun-allowed: It wouldn't be nice to throw new terms without explaining them at the audience though.
2020-04-27T06:25:36Z phoe: this certainly seems more like a full-size talk then
2020-04-27T06:26:22Z no-defun-allowed: Dammit.
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2020-04-27T06:26:57Z phoe: if anything, I'd do a lightning talk that only shows the examples and the most important practical parts *without* introducing the new terms at all - "I have several networked computers, if I do this on one computer, then this thing pops up on all these computers" three or four times
2020-04-27T06:27:12Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
2020-04-27T06:27:25Z phoe: and/or do a full size 25-minute talk that actually explains the theoretical basics and then performs the examples
2020-04-27T06:28:12Z phoe: and/or just record this stuff and throw it at the ELS mailing list and Reddit; in a way, we have ELS all year long this year due to the current pandemic circumstances
2020-04-27T06:28:28Z no-defun-allowed: Right then.
2020-04-27T06:28:48Z easye chants "ELS ... All ... Year"
2020-04-27T06:29:26Z verisimilitude: An obvious suggestion is heavily compressing all of your sentences, no-defun-allowed.
2020-04-27T06:29:54Z verisimilitude: That could be bothersome to actually listen to, however.
2020-04-27T06:30:20Z phoe: verisimilitude: I tried that with my first ELS lightning talk ever
2020-04-27T06:30:25Z phoe: the effect was poor
2020-04-27T06:31:01Z phoe: I can't therefore really recommend it; human listening and understanding bandwidth isn't good enough for compression to be really viable
2020-04-27T06:32:02Z phoe: easye: every day is lisp day™
2020-04-27T06:32:18Z verisimilitude: Using a language such as Lojban isn't an option, yes.
2020-04-27T06:32:27Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, I dropped the less interesting parts and it should be shorter now.
2020-04-27T06:33:11Z beach: no-defun-allowed: It's the hard part of any talk, knowing what not to say.
2020-04-27T06:33:11Z phoe: verisimilitude: neither is gzipping the stream of data you present and leaving uncompressing it as an exercise for the reader, or *even* just speaking faster
2020-04-27T06:36:23Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: Lightning talks traditionally are '5 minutes, and if you go one second more, Didier kills you live on stage'
2020-04-27T06:36:36Z no-defun-allowed: Haha, I'm immortal now!
2020-04-27T06:37:15Z verisimilitude: Hello, Shinmera.
2020-04-27T06:37:38Z verisimilitude: My notes on that dns-client were noticed, right?
2020-04-27T06:39:02Z Shinmera: Yeah
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2020-04-27T06:39:17Z Shinmera: Not doing anything about it at the moment though.
2020-04-27T06:40:15Z verisimilitude: I've further notes on that DECODE-HOST; I'd use DPB and LDB instead of your subtraction by a binary constant and I'd simplify it by making the increment conditional; the only reason I understand what that constant did was because I've read some of the DNS documents.
2020-04-27T06:40:56Z Shinmera: Sure. I just copied another implementation because I was in a hurry.
2020-04-27T06:41:17Z verisimilitude: Alright.
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2020-04-27T06:42:42Z verisimilitude: I don't want to unduly criticize, but the special variables specifically for Google and Cloudflare DNS servers is something I'd never write.
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2020-04-27T06:45:01Z no-defun-allowed: 7:00 now. If I extrapolate this, it should take me about 2 more takes to get it under 5 minutes.
2020-04-27T06:45:55Z Shinmera: you can just... not use them if you don't like them.
2020-04-27T06:46:14Z verisimilitude: Well, I'm going to write my own DNS library anyway; it's simply my final note on it.
2020-04-27T06:46:20Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: don't speak too fast, though...
2020-04-27T06:46:30Z Shinmera shrugs
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2020-04-27T06:54:40Z no-defun-allowed: 5:30 now. Maybe I can speak a tad faster.
2020-04-27T06:54:57Z verisimilitude: Remove any greetings.
2020-04-27T06:55:06Z beach: I don't think it will be rejected at that length.
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2020-04-27T06:55:47Z beach: ... especially since there seem to be relatively few lightning talks today.
2020-04-27T06:56:03Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, I don't want to find out what the online equivalent of being killed live on stage is, nor take too long given the circumstances.
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2020-04-27T06:56:19Z beach: I understand.
2020-04-27T06:56:27Z phoe: Didier used to get killed himself during one of his talks that went for, like, six and half a minute
2020-04-27T06:56:35Z verisimilitude: Just look at what happened to RMS, no-defun-allowed.
2020-04-27T06:56:37Z phoe: and look he's still around to organize ELS this year
2020-04-27T06:57:49Z Shinmera: Being dead ain't stopped nobody before
2020-04-27T06:58:49Z beach: Yeah, being alive is overrated anyway.
2020-04-27T06:58:58Z verisimilitude: I don't even like being alive.
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2020-04-27T07:02:59Z no-defun-allowed: Right, now it's pretty short. I can probably cut out :30 removing my stuttering.
2020-04-27T07:04:26Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Are you aiming for today or tomorrow (UTC+2) for your lightning talk?
2020-04-27T07:04:52Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure, I just need to do some quick editing now.
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2020-04-27T07:05:20Z beach: It doesn't matter much I guess.  Shinmera will fit it in when he can.
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2020-04-27T07:10:16Z verisimilitude: What will Shinmera give a talk on?
2020-04-27T07:10:24Z Shinmera: nothing.
2020-04-27T07:10:28Z Shinmera: I'm organising.
2020-04-27T07:10:37Z phoe: How To Organize ELS Over the Internet: A Practical Approach
2020-04-27T07:10:42Z beach: Heh!
2020-04-27T07:10:44Z Shinmera: step 1: despair
2020-04-27T07:10:59Z beach: A lightning talk should be long enough for that, right? :)
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2020-04-27T07:11:20Z Shinmera: Either that, or it's a life long experience :V
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2020-04-27T07:12:28Z beach: MerlinTheWizard: You may find that today and tomorrow (UTC+2) many people here are busy attending the online ELS conference.
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2020-04-27T07:13:43Z no-defun-allowed: Right, it's rendering now.
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2020-04-27T10:03:46Z easye: Marco's talk broke the Internet...
2020-04-27T10:04:09Z beach: Looks that way.
2020-04-27T10:04:17Z phoe: the amazing initial on the S letter was too much for the stream
2020-04-27T10:04:31Z easye: It is a very cool graphic riffing off the book, indeed.
2020-04-27T10:04:39Z phoe: as a calligrapher myself, I just burst into laughter
2020-04-27T10:13:12Z Gnuxie[m]: will we get to watch the talks after broadcast? my connection is too poor for the quality twitch is offering
2020-04-27T10:13:37Z beach: Yes, I am told they will be on the ELS site.
2020-04-27T10:14:26Z Gnuxie[m]: nice
2020-04-27T10:15:57Z Shinmera: Gnuxie[m]: https://twitch.tv/elsconf/videos/
2020-04-27T10:16:25Z Shinmera: should be able to download the VODs, too.
2020-04-27T10:19:42Z Gnuxie[m]: Shinmera: thank you :)
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2020-04-27T10:37:42Z Krystof: right, streaming at 1080p means I have to be very close to our router (and my wife must not be on a simultaneous call)
2020-04-27T10:37:52Z Krystof: I'm getting the gist of the talks though :-)
2020-04-27T10:38:22Z Shinmera: It's less the resolution, and more the bitrate. I thought twitch would offer rescaling options like it usually does, but they're not on for whatever reason.
2020-04-27T10:39:43Z easye: Krystof: if you have a tablet, I think there  is a "Twitch App" which might do optimizations.
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2020-04-27T10:40:19Z mgr_: but the image quality is nice and shiny when it works :)
2020-04-27T10:40:39Z phoe: it's also nice and shiny when it doesn't work, except then also it doesn't move
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2020-04-27T10:40:50Z Krystof: Shinmera: I think you have to be a "partner" for your viewers to get options
2020-04-27T10:41:15Z easye: Other than Marco's gorgeous presentation, 1080p has been mostly unneeded.
2020-04-27T10:41:17Z Shinmera: Possible that they changed that, but I thought my usual stream also got them.
2020-04-27T10:41:30Z Shinmera: and I'm not partnered
2020-04-27T10:43:32Z MichaelRaskin: It seems to be true that for a given target bitrate, higher starting resolution gives better results…
2020-04-27T10:44:14Z MichaelRaskin: But Shinmera did not even have enough wall-clock time between getting the videos and putting them up to recode anything
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2020-04-27T10:46:26Z easye: Well, we could maybe get Krystof to give us a MAP/REDUCE instance to recode.
2020-04-27T10:46:48Z easye: (not a serious suggestion)
2020-04-27T10:46:56Z Krystof: *phew* :)
2020-04-27T10:48:54Z Shinmera: MichaelRaskin: I downloaded the last video for today this morning...
2020-04-27T10:49:21Z Krystof: that is entirely consistent with my usual timetable for writing slides
2020-04-27T10:49:58Z MichaelRaskin: Shinmera: even if it were yesterday, still not enough time in practice to recode…
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2020-04-27T10:55:52Z cpape: Is a audio-only mode possible? My bandwidth is too limited for the 1080.
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2020-04-27T11:06:20Z Krystof: speaking as someone who has been a local organizer for a conference - I think the fact that we have anything at all in the way of ELS, let alone something that is as good as this is pretty cool
2020-04-27T11:06:27Z Shinmera: MichaelRaskin: yes, plus, as I said, I was doing this on the assumption that there would be live reencodes for people with worse connections.
2020-04-27T11:06:40Z Krystof: and even when my video cuts out, getting the twitch chat is great :)
2020-04-27T11:06:40Z Shinmera: Krystof: I think so too
2020-04-27T11:09:24Z luis: Shinmera: yes, thanks for this!
2020-04-27T11:09:26Z cpape: It is great, yes, thank you Shinmera! I follow the chat; will watch the videos async.
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2020-04-27T11:29:29Z phoe: (incf Shinmera)
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2020-04-27T11:45:57Z jmercouris: (decf Shinmera)
2020-04-27T11:46:12Z Bike: wow, rude.
2020-04-27T11:46:26Z White_Flame: (setf Shinmera #c(1 1))
2020-04-27T11:46:33Z jmercouris: I'm just bringing Shinmera back to its original value
2020-04-27T11:47:09Z phoe: (complex-incf Shinmera)
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2020-04-27T11:47:27Z jmercouris: (setf Shinmera (- 1 (+ 1 Shinmera)))
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2020-04-27T11:47:51Z phoe: so you basically tumble him around for a moment and then set him back in his place
2020-04-27T11:47:54Z phoe: hmm
2020-04-27T11:47:57Z no-defun-allowed: (my-utility-library-that-totally-exists:overwrite-instance Shinmera (class-prototype (class-of Shinmera)))
2020-04-27T11:48:58Z phoe: watch out, he might have some unbound slots now
2020-04-27T11:49:13Z phoe: (reinitialize-instance Shinmera)
2020-04-27T11:49:27Z no-defun-allowed: My overwrite-instance checks for unbound slots, because I was bitten by not checking a few minutes after I wrote it the first time.
2020-04-27T11:49:39Z phoe: ooh, okay
2020-04-27T11:49:57Z jmercouris: the thing is this though
2020-04-27T11:50:02Z jmercouris: shinmera is an integer
2020-04-27T11:50:25Z Shinmera: everything is with the right indexing.
2020-04-27T11:50:37Z no-defun-allowed: In that case, shouldn't (- 1 (+ 1 #)) just create a new Shinmera + 1 and then a new Shinmera + 1 - 1
2020-04-27T11:51:04Z no-defun-allowed: (line 13 of netfarm/Code/Objects/MOP/rewrite-references.lisp)
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2020-04-27T11:59:57Z luis: This is not the kind of discussion we'd be having face to face, I don't think. :)
2020-04-27T12:00:15Z jmercouris: error : not bound in the keyword package
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2020-04-27T12:03:06Z flip214: Can I download the ELS talks, or are they only available as a live-stream?
2020-04-27T12:03:20Z phoe: flip214: they should be available for download
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2020-04-27T12:06:37Z flip214: don't see how to download in twitch right now
2020-04-27T12:06:44Z flip214: but perhaps I'll find it later on
2020-04-27T12:07:22Z phoe: flip214: it's available for streaming https://www.twitch.tv/videos/603969430 and will likely be made downloadable soon
2020-04-27T12:07:39Z phoe: AFAIR it requires some toggles in Twitch settingsd
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2020-04-27T12:08:21Z Shinmera: you should be able to use youtube-dl to download the vods
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2020-04-27T12:19:56Z jdz: I'm using mpv to watch the stream (it uses youtube-dl underneath).
2020-04-27T12:20:32Z jdz: At least then I can pause and then watch at increased speed to catch up.
2020-04-27T12:21:20Z jdz: Hardware accelerated video (on Linux) as a bonus.
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2020-04-27T12:36:27Z flip214: Shinmera: youtube-dl needs a link to the video, but it doesn't seem possible to click on already-done streams?
2020-04-27T12:37:02Z Shinmera: Hm? First part: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/603969430
2020-04-27T12:37:10Z Shinmera: Current part: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/604032328
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2020-04-27T12:39:06Z flip214: Oh, right... thanks. I don't see very well today, I tried clicking on TOC items in the livestream!
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2020-04-27T12:39:50Z Shinmera: There should be a link to 'videos' at the top of the stream page that gets you to the list of recordings.
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2020-04-27T12:41:45Z flip214: yeah, found it after seeing your links... looked harder ;)
2020-04-27T12:42:24Z Shinmera: No problem :)
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2020-04-27T13:26:55Z makomo: hello!
2020-04-27T13:28:25Z phoe: heyy
2020-04-27T13:29:05Z makomo: emacs reminded me that elsconf 2020 starts today :')
2020-04-27T13:29:13Z makomo: sadly i missed the "omnipresent application debugging" and "sealable metaobjects" talks
2020-04-27T13:29:42Z makomo: i assume all of the talks will be uploaded online after the broadcasts right?
2020-04-27T13:29:47Z MichaelRaskin: Well, there are recordings on the video tab
2020-04-27T13:29:51Z MichaelRaskin: On Twitch
2020-04-27T13:30:28Z makomo: oo, i forgot to check!
2020-04-27T13:30:35Z flip214: makomo: you need to click on the small "videos" header, top center
2020-04-27T13:30:46Z makomo: that's great :D
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2020-04-27T13:30:58Z makomo: thanks :)
2020-04-27T13:31:04Z flip214: https://www.twitch.tv/elsconf/clips?filter=clips&range=24hr
2020-04-27T13:31:51Z makomo afk
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2020-04-27T13:38:24Z bitmapper: it taunts me https://franz.com/support/6.2/download/download.lhtml
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2020-04-27T13:40:57Z Shinmera: flip214: clips are not the recordings!
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2020-04-27T13:42:09Z beach: bitmapper: What seems to be the problem?
2020-04-27T13:42:17Z bitmapper: the links no longer work
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2020-04-27T13:47:31Z phoe: still the IRIX issue?
2020-04-27T13:48:48Z bitmapper: yeah lol
2020-04-27T13:49:01Z bitmapper: i've tried ECL and CMUCL, but neither work
2020-04-27T13:49:05Z bitmapper: and clisp, is
2020-04-27T13:49:06Z bitmapper: well
2020-04-27T13:49:07Z bitmapper: clisp
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2020-04-27T13:57:48Z luis: D'oh. ELS schedule is UTC+2. *facepalm*
2020-04-27T13:58:51Z phoe: luis: the talks are recorded, thankfully
2020-04-27T13:59:05Z phoe: except this time they're recorded by Twitch itself so they are also instantly available
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2020-04-27T13:59:54Z easye: Everything is working pretty smoothly.
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2020-04-27T14:01:29Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: well, Twitch _input_ is pre-recorded talks
2020-04-27T14:03:06Z flip214: Records in - records out....
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2020-04-27T15:23:09Z Shinmera: First day of ELS is over, phew!
2020-04-27T15:23:21Z Shinmera: For those that missed it, you can catch up here: https://twitch.tv/elsconf/videos/all
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2020-04-27T15:23:42Z Shinmera: Or, actually a better link: https://www.twitch.tv/elsconf/videos?filter=archives&sort=time
2020-04-27T15:26:40Z beach: Great work, Shinmera.
2020-04-27T15:27:53Z phoe: very much amazing, yes
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2020-04-27T15:34:23Z Shinmera: Thank you!
2020-04-27T15:34:27Z makomo: Shinmera: good stuff! :)
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2020-04-27T15:40:04Z travv0: looking forward to watching later
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2020-04-27T16:13:08Z splittist: Very well done Shinmera and presenters
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2020-04-27T16:13:54Z thodg: hello
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2020-04-27T16:14:05Z cgay: What's the relationship between ultralisp.org and quicklisp? "Ultralisp is a quicklisp distribution, which updates every 5 minutes"  Does that mean it has the same stuff as quicklisp but it's updated more often?
2020-04-27T16:14:19Z thodg: you can push your own projects from github
2020-04-27T16:14:25Z phoe: cgay: quicklisp is actually two things
2020-04-27T16:14:34Z phoe: the first is quicklisp client, which is a piece of lisp stuff you run to download things
2020-04-27T16:14:48Z phoe: the second is quicklisp dist, which is a set of Lisp software updated ~once a month
2020-04-27T16:14:54Z phoe: the main quicklisp dist updates once a month
2020-04-27T16:15:13Z phoe: the main ultralisp dist updates on every change pushed to any of the ultralisp git projects
2020-04-27T16:15:28Z phoe: so it's "stable" versus "bleeding edge"
2020-04-27T16:15:41Z cgay: i see, thanks!
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2020-04-27T16:17:34Z ralt: the important thing about quicklisp dist is that all the dependencies are compiled together, i.e. the set of libraries in a given distribution are guaranteed to at least compile together with all the given versions
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2020-04-27T16:18:26Z phoe: and ultralisp makes no such guarantees
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2020-04-27T16:19:34Z cgay: you mean they compile together without warnings, or what? because IME for Lisp code to "compile together" isn't a very strong guarantee. :)
2020-04-27T16:19:35Z housel: If it breaks you get to keep the pieces, as they say
2020-04-27T16:20:02Z cgay: :)
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2020-04-27T16:20:17Z phoe: cgay: they are loadable without ASDF going crazy
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2020-04-27T16:20:20Z Shinmera: cgay: It means every system is loaded at least once before the dist is created.
2020-04-27T16:20:30Z Shinmera: each being loaded in its own fresh image.
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2020-04-27T16:20:49Z Shinmera: if errors happen during this, a bug is filed and the dist release delayed.
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2020-04-27T16:21:59Z cgay: Tests?
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2020-04-27T16:22:34Z Shinmera: There's no standardised interface to run tests and get results from them, so they're not run.
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2020-04-27T16:23:53Z phoe: asdf:test-system attempted to be one, but even it admit that there's no standardization there
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2020-04-27T16:24:22Z Shinmera: it could have been one if it had taken the time to standardise the behaviour
2020-04-27T16:24:26Z Shinmera: oh well.
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2020-04-27T16:30:52Z Bike: what would a standard interface return? T for pass? NIL for pass and something else as a representation of failures?
2020-04-27T16:31:20Z phoe: Bike: primary value: true if everything is as expected, false if someone needs to take a look at the results
2020-04-27T16:31:41Z phoe: secondary value: test-dependent object that shows the test result(s)
2020-04-27T16:31:45Z Bike: mm.
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2020-04-27T16:32:02Z phoe: that would work for me
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2020-04-27T16:38:08Z phoe: clhs ~[
2020-04-27T16:38:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgb.htm
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2020-04-27T17:08:23Z Shinmera: Bike: you could go as far as standardising objects for test unit results.
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2020-04-27T17:16:45Z pfdietz: On the subject of test APIs, I have opinions.
2020-04-27T17:16:57Z phoe: please let me know it
2020-04-27T17:17:02Z phoe: s/it/them
2020-04-27T17:17:17Z cgay waits
2020-04-27T17:17:36Z pfdietz: It should be possible to decompose the test suite into individual tests that can be run separately.
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2020-04-27T17:18:27Z pfdietz: Results should include expected/unexpected passes and fails.   That is, it should be possible to include tests that are expected to fail, without rendering the test suite failing.
2020-04-27T17:18:52Z pfdietz: There should be a standard way of reporting success/failure to ASDF.
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2020-04-27T17:19:20Z phoe: I can wholeheartedly agree with this very last point
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2020-04-27T17:21:08Z pfdietz: There should be some sort of traceability between individual tests and parts of the system under test.  This may not be part of the testing API per se, but I want to be able to answer questions like "to test X, run the tests in the set Y".
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2020-04-27T17:21:54Z pfdietz: (asdf:test-system <systemname>) should load the tests if they are not already loaded.
2020-04-27T17:22:15Z phoe: pfdietz: you are already describing a unit test framework
2020-04-27T17:23:00Z pfdietz: There should be a way of describing how to generate tests.
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2020-04-27T17:24:03Z pfdietz: There should be a way to evaluate the adequacy of the tests.
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2020-04-27T17:25:11Z pfdietz: I've been working on something for the latter that motivates some of those earlier points.
2020-04-27T17:26:12Z pfdietz: It's a mutation testing framework, something that mutates a function (or a set of methods) and runs tests against the mutated code.
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2020-04-27T17:26:30Z pfdietz: So, it needs a standardized way of determining if the tests passed.
2020-04-27T17:26:51Z pfdietz: It would benefit from only running the tests that exercise the mutated function/methods.
2020-04-27T17:28:20Z pfdietz: If tied with a test input generator, it could automatically look for inputs that kill mutants the test suite missed.   This is beyond using that test input generator just for property based testing for properties derived from requirements.
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2020-04-27T17:31:46Z pfdietz: I would like the suite to be multithreaded, or execute in multiple processes, if possible.
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2020-04-27T17:32:22Z pfdietz: I would like it to tell me how long individual tests take to run.
2020-04-27T17:32:47Z pfdietz: (That's important in the mutation tester, so a timeout can be set to detect looping in the mutants.)
2020-04-27T17:33:22Z phoe: this has escalated quickly from the point where we said that it's hard for ASDF to know if the test suite for a given project ran successfully or not
2020-04-27T17:33:33Z pfdietz: Yes, I have needs. :)
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2020-04-27T17:34:12Z pfdietz: I'
2020-04-27T17:34:32Z pfdietz: I'm driven here by a lack of adequate testing in many ql systems.
2020-04-27T17:35:45Z pfdietz: I want something that can check how well or poorly a system is tested, and help mass produce new tests if more are needed.
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2020-04-27T17:37:20Z Shinmera: https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/1254825458241286144
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2020-04-27T17:39:59Z flip214: ugh, 13.4 GB for one of the ELS videos...
2020-04-27T17:40:03Z cgay: pfdietz: i am in favor of all the things on your list. what do you mean exactly by "there should be a way of describing how to generate tests"?
2020-04-27T17:40:12Z flip214: 13.7 even
2020-04-27T17:40:45Z Shinmera: cgay: I presume a grammar of sorts that can be randomly instantiated to create a valid test form.
2020-04-27T17:41:02Z Shinmera: Something I have been thinking about for Parachute, though not much yet.
2020-04-27T17:41:23Z Shinmera: flip214: I'm streaming at about 6Mbps, so yeah, it adds up quick.
2020-04-27T17:41:56Z pfdietz: What he said.
2020-04-27T17:42:11Z Shinmera: I'll probably lower it to 4Mbps for tomorrow in hopes it'll help for people with worse internet.
2020-04-27T17:42:32Z pfdietz: This would be used for two things.   First, you can express a property of some function, then bombard it with random inputs and see if the property is ever violated.
2020-04-27T17:42:56Z flip214: Shinmera: I'd have hoped to find videos of individual talks... and perhaps in different sizes and/or compression formats
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2020-04-27T17:43:21Z Shinmera: someone has to put in the work for that.
2020-04-27T17:43:24Z pfdietz: Second, it can be used with some metric of coverage to generate test inputs that improve that metric.  This is useful even if you don't have an oracle that tells you if the output is correct.
2020-04-27T17:43:35Z flip214: and while I'm posting wishes, why not include a slides+voice video channel as well?
2020-04-27T17:43:50Z Shinmera: eh?
2020-04-27T17:44:10Z Bike: the live ended, what, like a couple hours ago? these sound like things that take time even whe someone is actually doing them
2020-04-27T17:44:11Z flip214: Shinmera: I'm well aware of that. And we all (me, at the very least!) are very grateful to you!
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2020-04-27T17:45:30Z flip214: well, I haven't looked at the videos yet... but at that size I guess there are not that many slide pictures and more persons talking
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2020-04-27T17:46:18Z flip214: slides (as still pictures) plus a bit of sound can't be _that_ big, right?
2020-04-27T17:47:11Z Bike: would that not depend on the video compression
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2020-04-27T17:47:59Z MichaelRaskin: There seems to be no good video format for vector graphics + voice
2020-04-27T17:48:47Z flip214: well, the vector graphics shouldn't really matter - just put still pictures in every few seconds, won't take that much bandwidth
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2020-04-27T17:49:40Z flip214: MichaelRaskin: animated gif .... or animated SVG.... or just PDFs of the slides that can be clicked-through along to an audio-only stream
2020-04-27T17:49:57Z MichaelRaskin: PDFs are … getting there
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2020-04-27T17:50:37Z MichaelRaskin: Note that it is not BigBlueButton where you would have a recording of slide change times + audio, here Shinmera receives videos as input
2020-04-27T17:51:04Z bitmapper: i contacted lispworks support, they said no to getting a version that will work on IRIX
2020-04-27T17:51:09Z bitmapper: hmm
2020-04-27T17:51:22Z MichaelRaskin: (and synchronised seek through SVG animation + audio is not a well-supported task in modern software, as far as I know)
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2020-04-27T18:51:27Z pve: pfdietz: this mutation testing sounds interesting.. do you know if it is widely used?
2020-04-27T18:55:39Z pfdietz: It was invented decades ago (in Lisp!) but was mostly in fringe things like flight control software until recently.  Now Google is using it as input to code reviews.
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2020-04-27T18:56:55Z pfdietz: https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en//pubs/archive/46584.pdf
2020-04-27T19:00:23Z pve: thanks, super interesting
2020-04-27T19:01:38Z pve: there's no lisp testing framework that does that now, right?
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2020-04-27T19:02:02Z pfdietz: Well, none that's been made public yet.    I have a prototype working.
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2020-04-27T19:06:07Z Aurora_v_kosmose: How does mutation testing differ from formal modeling?
2020-04-27T19:06:20Z Aurora_v_kosmose: (Haven't read the linked paper, busy)
2020-04-27T19:06:50Z pve: and your prototype will become public at some point?
2020-04-27T19:06:55Z markasoftware: a lisp code optimizer could be written as a macro, right?
2020-04-27T19:06:59Z pfdietz: Very different.  It's basically a way of estimating the adequacy of a test suite.
2020-04-27T19:07:06Z phoe: markasoftware: yes, although it *should* be written as a compiler macro instead.
2020-04-27T19:07:19Z phoe: Or, if possible, as an inlineable function.
2020-04-27T19:07:21Z Aurora_v_kosmose: pfdietz: Oh I see. That sounds like a rather different goal.
2020-04-27T19:07:34Z pfdietz: It's testing of testing.
2020-04-27T19:07:34Z markasoftware: is a compiler macro just a macro that's part of the compiler?
2020-04-27T19:07:53Z phoe: you can define a compiler macro for a function, that's a difference.
2020-04-27T19:07:58Z phoe: you can't do the same with standard macros.
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2020-04-27T19:08:01Z Aurora_v_kosmose: pfdietz: Ah, got it. Thanks.
2020-04-27T19:08:13Z Bike: it is not a macro that's part of the compiler, though the compiler can use them.
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2020-04-27T19:09:17Z saturn2: a compiler macro is only for optimizing a function call though, not any lisp code in general
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2020-04-27T19:15:36Z markasoftware: do you mainly write compiler macros for your own functions?
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2020-04-27T19:16:54Z saturn2: yes
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2020-04-27T19:17:18Z markasoftware: What power does it give you that you wouldn't get from just writing your original function in a more performant way?
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2020-04-27T19:18:10Z SAL9000: special-casing based on arguments
2020-04-27T19:18:29Z SAL9000: (or global state)
2020-04-27T19:18:34Z phoe: compile-time type inference
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2020-04-27T19:20:04Z edgar-rft: Common Lisp - build with alien technology and tested by mutants
2020-04-27T19:22:28Z markasoftware: ah i see
2020-04-27T19:22:30Z markasoftware: thank you!
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2020-04-27T19:30:07Z cgay: I've found examples of define-compiler-macro for collection-related facilities (remove, find, etc.). They basically transform those calls at compile time into more efficient internal calls that don't use keyword arguments.
2020-04-27T19:31:25Z pve: pfdietz: in that paper, lisp has a suspiciously low survival rate (1%).. what could explain it? (they don't seem to give an explanation)
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2020-04-27T19:33:15Z pfdietz: If I had to guess, they might already have been testing their lisp code very well.
2020-04-27T19:33:16Z Xach: markasoftware: i have used it to convert n-ary functions to their simpler binary equivalents
2020-04-27T19:34:19Z pve: that would certainly explain it
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2020-04-27T20:19:51Z |3b|: Xach: can zpb-exif parse exif data from an octet buffer or similar? (without having a containing jpeg, trying to add exif support to pngload)
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2020-04-27T20:20:49Z Xach: |3b|: the existing functionality is all stream-oriented
2020-04-27T20:21:09Z Xach: and pretty jpeg-oriented too...do pngs have exif data??
2020-04-27T20:21:22Z |3b|: there is an extension to add it
2020-04-27T20:21:26Z Xach: i haven't looked at the code in quite a while
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2020-04-27T20:21:41Z |3b|: ok, will poke at it and see if it can be added easily
2020-04-27T20:22:08Z |3b|: can dump it in a flexistream or something if needed, just need to be able to start it at the right point in parsing
2020-04-27T20:24:39Z karlosz: i have to join the choir and praise heisig's presentation theme
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2020-04-27T20:33:03Z phoe: I mean, it's inspiring enough for fan art to pop up already, so
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2020-04-27T20:33:27Z Shinmera: wha
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2020-04-27T20:33:39Z phoe: wha
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2020-04-27T20:35:40Z Shinmera: what do you mean fan art
2020-04-27T20:35:47Z phoe: https://www.reddit.com/r/LispMemes/comments/g98thv/els2020_fan_art/
2020-04-27T20:35:51Z phoe: obviously
2020-04-27T20:35:59Z Shinmera: I don't reddit, so
2020-04-27T20:36:03Z Shinmera: looking neat tho
2020-04-27T20:36:33Z Bike: oh, it's like the AMOP cover. cute.
2020-04-27T20:36:47Z phoe: I posted it once on twitch chat during a lunch break but might have easily been missed
2020-04-27T20:37:11Z Shinmera: I did miss that yes
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2020-04-27T20:42:24Z phoe: there should be a special ELS prize for providing aesthetic input for the conference
2020-04-27T20:43:20Z phoe: right now I am torn between heisig raising the bar for the quality of the visual medium and Shinmera defining the quality of the European Lisp Symposium OST
2020-04-27T20:43:34Z Shinmera: lol
2020-04-27T20:43:42Z karlosz: what is the type? is it a german or gothic one?
2020-04-27T20:43:45Z selwyn: chill beats to lisp to
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2020-04-27T20:52:43Z heisig blushes
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2020-04-27T20:53:27Z phoe: karlosz: neither, it's my custom invention that shamelessly mixes gothic texture, fraktur, humanist minuscule and a few other stuff into one rather freeform writing style
2020-04-27T20:53:35Z phoe: that's already #lispcafe matter though
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2020-04-27T20:53:43Z |3b|: Xach: does https://github.com/3b/zpb-exif/commit/cbb9e6df4a7b8c0a5f5dba618a631c440e0206c5 look like something acceptable? (assuming it works etc, not tested yet)
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2020-04-27T20:55:22Z phoe: that IGNORE-ERRORS is stingy
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2020-04-27T20:55:52Z Bike: is in the original code tho.
2020-04-27T20:55:56Z phoe: yep
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2020-04-27T20:57:34Z |3b|: yeah, CL lacks some "will this work without trying it?" predicates :/
2020-04-27T20:58:06Z Xach: |3b|: looks good
2020-04-27T20:58:25Z |3b|: ok, will send a PR if it actually works :)
2020-04-27T20:59:01Z |3b|: hopefully we should have pngload/pngload-fast mess sorted out in time for next month's QL
2020-04-27T20:59:37Z |3b|: should work on pretty much anything (currently missing clasp, but planning to look at that soon)
2020-04-27T20:59:59Z |3b|: (and opticl doesn't use it there anyway, i think)
2020-04-27T21:00:16Z Xach: clasp!
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2020-04-27T21:00:51Z Shinmera: speaking of clasp, it has been catching up really nicely on https://portability.cl/
2020-04-27T21:01:41Z |3b|: ok, maybe not /anything/, i haven't tested on corman, jscl, mkcl, mocl or sicl :)
2020-04-27T21:01:49Z Shinmera: genera? :)
2020-04-27T21:01:58Z |3b|: or that
2020-04-27T21:02:11Z phoe: corman is actually alive nowadays, so might be possible to test on that
2020-04-27T21:02:12Z Shinmera: can't forget about scl and xcl!
2020-04-27T21:02:34Z Shinmera: or gcl
2020-04-27T21:02:35Z Xach: i wish scieneer was still doing stuff
2020-04-27T21:02:39Z phoe: scl is dead
2020-04-27T21:02:41Z phoe: sadly
2020-04-27T21:02:50Z phoe: .....also, isn't xcl just ABCL now?
2020-04-27T21:03:08Z p_l: wasn't xcl this weird fork of ecl that died immediately?
2020-04-27T21:03:20Z Xach: no
2020-04-27T21:03:21Z phoe: that's mankai common lisp though
2020-04-27T21:03:32Z Xach: xcl was by piso, iirc
2020-04-27T21:04:05Z Xach: i think of xcl every time i see a sign that says "piso mojado"
2020-04-27T21:04:09Z Shinmera: xcl was a c++ thingy, if I remember correctly?
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2020-04-27T21:04:36Z Xach: Yes - it came out of some older lisp
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2020-04-27T21:05:27Z |3b|: https://github.com/3b/pngload/actions/runs/89437841 is what we have automatic tests for, + manual tests on x86 sbcl, mezzano, and lw
2020-04-27T21:06:02Z |3b|: (though the ccl and ccl32 there are actually sbcl, since roswell got confused by ccl package names and i didn't add a workaround in hopes it would be fixed soon)
2020-04-27T21:06:13Z Shinmera: |3b|: what about allegro?
2020-04-27T21:06:20Z axion: by we he means me also :)
2020-04-27T21:06:32Z axion: Allegro is in the actgions link above
2020-04-27T21:06:33Z Lycurgus: how complete is clasp as a cl at this point if current sbcl was 100%?
2020-04-27T21:06:37Z |3b|: Shinmera: thats in the CI
2020-04-27T21:06:47Z Shinmera: oh. I missed it, my bad
2020-04-27T21:06:49Z Shinmera is tired
2020-04-27T21:07:10Z Shinmera: Lycurgus: it's quite complete features wise, but still has rough edges
2020-04-27T21:07:15Z |3b|: and they are looking at the bug pngload found (which apparently only affects linux express edition, not windows or full version)
2020-04-27T21:07:17Z pfdietz: I liked the presentations, except when lips got out of sync with the sound.  Uncanny valley.
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2020-04-27T21:07:40Z Lycurgus: Shinmera, so equivalent use wise to sbcl?
2020-04-27T21:07:59Z |3b| will probably add clasp to the CI once it works and i build some binaries the CI can use
2020-04-27T21:08:35Z |3b|: and windows ccl once ros figures out how to load it again, since i think 1.12 has the fix for windows hangs
2020-04-27T21:08:40Z Shinmera: Lycurgus: I don't know what you mean by that
2020-04-27T21:08:47Z Lycurgus: eg, I would say sbcl was 70% of acl to talk in a very loose manner
2020-04-27T21:08:59Z Shinmera: I still don't know what that means
2020-04-27T21:09:11Z Lycurgus: k
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2020-04-27T21:10:35Z Lycurgus will wait for fewer "rough edges"
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2020-04-27T21:22:29Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2020-04-27T21:22:57Z p_l: Preventive censorship commencing
2020-04-27T21:23:13Z p_l has set mode +m
2020-04-27T21:23:39Z p_l: (yes, fresh spam masquerading as freenode server ops)
2020-04-27T21:23:54Z p_l: Xach: same as last time, just without telling you to login to efnet
2020-04-27T21:24:51Z p_l: I hope I did the right mode this time (/mode #lisp +m $-a
2020-04-27T21:27:02Z p_l has set mode -m
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2020-04-27T21:29:15Z p_l:  /mode #lisp +q $~a should work... dunno how I mixed up tilde and minus
2020-04-27T21:30:36Z Cairn[m]: Anyone have a set of timestamps for the ELS recording?
2020-04-27T21:31:06Z Cairn[m]: Or will I just have to be patient for the videos to be uploaded?
2020-04-27T21:31:53Z p_l: Cairn[m]: the vids should already be available as separate clips on twitch
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2020-04-27T21:33:31Z p_l: ehhh, I seem to fail at twitch ultimately, they aren't
2020-04-27T21:33:35Z p_l: it just looked like it
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2020-04-27T21:34:50Z Cairn[m]: Yeah, I only see the full VODs
2020-04-27T21:34:52Z Shinmera: I think the clips are mostly people being confused by the twitch UI
2020-04-27T21:35:42Z Shinmera: the timestamps should be easy enough to figure out from the programme.
2020-04-27T21:37:56Z Cairn[m]: Yeah, I've just settled to watching it in order, but I just wanted to ask in case anyone had done timestamps yet.
2020-04-27T21:37:59Z Cairn[m]: Thanks!
2020-04-27T21:39:54Z LdBeth: Should be vaporwave
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2020-04-27T22:31:35Z markasoftware: in SLIME, waht's the shortcut ot access the result of the last expression?
2020-04-27T22:31:49Z markasoftware: i seem to remember there was something simple
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2020-04-27T22:31:54Z jasom: markasoftware: *
2020-04-27T22:32:02Z markasoftware: huehuehue thank you
2020-04-27T22:32:05Z jasom: markasoftware: and that should work in any REPL, not just slime
2020-04-27T22:32:49Z |3b|: in slime repl, you can hit enter on previous printed results to get them as input
2020-04-27T22:34:13Z jasom: * ** ***, / // ///, + ++ +++ are respectively the first/second/third most recent primary-value, values as a list, forms
2020-04-27T22:34:14Z |3b| isn't sure exactly when that preserves identity or not though, so might need to use * when that matters
2020-04-27T22:34:39Z jasom: and - is the form currently being evaluated in the repl, though I haven't used that one before.
2020-04-27T22:34:54Z jasom: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/25_aa.htm
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2020-04-27T22:45:33Z anlsh: So what's the purpose of the alexandria-2 package?
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2020-04-27T22:53:28Z pfdietz: To not break systems that :use Alexandria by adding new exported symbols to that package.
2020-04-27T23:05:30Z |3b|: Xach: does quicklisp find .asd files in subdirectories of projects?
2020-04-27T23:06:42Z Xach: |3b|: yes
2020-04-27T23:07:30Z |3b|: ok, so would need to file an issue to avoid that if needed?
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2020-04-27T23:07:51Z |3b| is considering some test systems that would be intentionally broken for example
2020-04-27T23:07:53Z Xach: to ignore a system file? like for a template asd file or something?
2020-04-27T23:08:06Z Xach: yeah, i can work with that.
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2020-04-27T23:12:03Z |3b|: ok, will do that if i end up adding them to a project in ql
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2020-04-27T23:34:09Z Xach: hmm
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2020-04-27T23:40:27Z anlsh: Making a new package only kicks the can down the road though doesn't it?
2020-04-27T23:40:58Z Xach: anlsh: how so?
2020-04-27T23:41:57Z anlsh: What would stop them from having to make an alexandria-3 years down the road
2020-04-27T23:42:27Z Xach: anlsh: Nothing - but the way you phrase the question suggests you think that is a problem?
2020-04-27T23:42:56Z Xach: people who want new things get new things, people who use the old do not break - seems ok to me?
2020-04-27T23:43:12Z aeth: it sounds like it would be better to build versioning into DEFPACKAGE so people who don't USE it can always go with the latest version, but people who USE it can lock to a version.
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2020-04-27T23:44:36Z anlsh: It just doesn't seem like a good solution, having to add a new package every time you'd like to export a new symbol or set of symbols
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2020-04-27T23:45:09Z Xach: anlsh: why?
2020-04-27T23:45:12Z aeth: the real solution is to not USE packages that aren't your own
2020-04-27T23:45:41Z aeth: you can IMPORT-FROM a symbol or two that you actually use, or you can give it a local nickname
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2020-04-27T23:46:13Z Xach: Packages may change what they provide even if you import selectively, or reference with prefixes.
2020-04-27T23:46:27Z Xach: Committing to a set of supported symbols is one option and it seems reasonable to me.
2020-04-27T23:46:43Z |3b|: having things break randomly depending on what you load (because someone defined a function that clobbered a function they don't know about from a package they :use) doesn't seem like a good solution either :/
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2020-04-27T23:47:44Z |3b| agrees with "don't :use packages" as real solution, but suspects it is also an unlikely one, particularly for old, mostly unmaintained projects
2020-04-27T23:48:18Z |3b|: (but which are otherwise perfectly fine, as long as their :USEd packages don't change)
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2020-04-27T23:51:20Z aeth: The real fun thing is that if you use FLET, you can break macros by (perhaps locally) redefining functions you're not even aware of if you USE.
2020-04-27T23:51:23Z aeth: (defpackage #:foo (:use #:cl) (:export #:foo #:foobar)) (in-package #:foo) (defun foo (x) (1+ x)) (defmacro foobar (thing) `(foo ,thing)) (defpackage #:bar (:use #:cl #:foo)) (in-package #:bar) (defun bar () (flet ((foo (x) (* x x))) (foobar 2))) (bar) ;=> 4 instead of 3
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2020-04-27T23:53:14Z anlsh: I agree that not :use'ing things is the best solution: what about including some sort of disclaimer that new symbols may be exported at any time?
2020-04-27T23:53:54Z anlsh: You can't stop people from :use'ing it, but it would at least make the breakages their fault
2020-04-27T23:54:55Z Xach: Where do you put the disclaimer?
2020-04-27T23:55:25Z |3b|: "their fault" doesn't help 3rd parties who get hit by it due to some dependency 3 levels down :p
2020-04-27T23:55:57Z anlsh: Well you couldn't do it with existing libraries obviously :|
2020-04-27T23:55:59Z MichaelRaskin: Ship with the dictionary and export random additional symbols on each import?
2020-04-27T23:56:20Z anlsh: but for instance, doing it with a new package would be feasible
2020-04-27T23:56:51Z MichaelRaskin: Well, blame-shifting doesn't help
2020-04-27T23:57:13Z |3b|: yeah, hoping for "don't :use this" to work is a bit more reasonable now that more lisps support p-l-n
2020-04-27T23:57:20Z MichaelRaskin: Exporting T and NIL not eq to CL:T and CL:NIL might, actually
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2020-04-27T23:58:13Z anlsh: p-l-n?
2020-04-27T23:58:22Z anlsh: oh, package local nicks?
2020-04-27T23:58:44Z |3b|: yeah
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2020-04-28T00:03:08Z anlsh: MichaelRaskin: blame-shifting wouldn't fix anyone's code, but it would provide an incentive to use better coding style (again, with newer packages) and make it easier to add functionality to libraries right?
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2020-04-28T00:06:32Z MichaelRaskin: You say adding functionality to the existing libraries instead of new namespaces like it's a good thing
2020-04-28T00:08:02Z MichaelRaskin: And pure blameshifting provides no incentive
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2020-04-28T00:09:20Z MichaelRaskin: I guess if you indeed export a NIL distinct from CL:NIL people are more likely to reconsider whether they want to :use such a library
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2020-04-28T00:17:34Z anlsh: Well it's not exactly a *bad* thing, is it? For example, a while back I re-implemented alexandria's median function as a special case of the quick-select algorithm. I suggested that they might as well provide the quick-select function too, but the exporting issue got in the way
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2020-04-28T00:42:42Z MichaelRaskin: Well, the idea of alexandria-2 that would include entire alexandria and then some more also makes sense
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2020-04-28T02:55:36Z White_Flame: hmm, I have a relatively control-flow-twisted question to try to ask, as it's a bit difficult to make a simple test case for
2020-04-28T02:56:32Z White_Flame: will RETURN-FROM always return to the exact point in the call stack that its lexical block was established, even if there were intermediary blocks of the same name?
2020-04-28T02:56:56Z White_Flame: eg (block foo (do-cps-style (lambda () (return-from foo 3))))
2020-04-28T02:57:12Z White_Flame: assumign that in do-cps-style, there are other recursive uses of block foo
2020-04-28T02:57:19Z White_Flame: from the same source code
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2020-04-28T02:57:58Z White_Flame: so, on the call stack, there are multiple places where this same code was called, establishing block foo's.  The return-from will return to the exact stack frame it was established in, and not just the first found?
2020-04-28T02:59:28Z Bike: White_Flame: yes, it will return to the particular frame.
2020-04-28T02:59:56Z White_Flame: thank you veeeeery much
2020-04-28T03:00:25Z Bike: it's kind of a tricky point.
2020-04-28T03:00:31Z saturn2: block/return-from does the thing you want, and catch/throw does the thing you don't want
2020-04-28T03:00:40Z White_Flame: ah, k
2020-04-28T03:01:15Z White_Flame: I had tried catch/throw first, but it seemed less right
2020-04-28T03:01:57Z White_Flame: (without executing yet, the code I"m refactoring is quite large)
2020-04-28T03:02:33Z White_Flame: thanks
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2020-04-28T03:43:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-28T06:50:01Z Shinmera: Day two of ELS here we go
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2020-04-28T06:53:41Z flip214: Here we go again .... give a little bit of your lisp to me
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2020-04-28T06:53:58Z Shinmera: I can give you all of my lisp if you take over maintainership
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2020-04-28T06:55:46Z flip214: I was mostly citing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9JOut9yh5g, 0:09 and onwards
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2020-04-28T07:27:24Z doomlist3: is there CL to C transpilers
2020-04-28T07:27:34Z doomlist3: just like abcl is for java
2020-04-28T07:27:41Z jdz: doomlist3: There's ECL.
2020-04-28T07:28:00Z Shinmera: Neither are 'transpilers' really because they still require their own runtime to work.
2020-04-28T07:28:27Z Shinmera: Also I think ABCL emits JVM bytecode, not Java source.
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2020-04-28T07:41:33Z doomlist3: runtime is a software , so what is it
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2020-04-28T07:46:24Z phoe: ECL, short for Embeddable Common Lisp
2020-04-28T07:46:37Z beach: doomlist3: Memory manager, garbage collector, etc.
2020-04-28T07:46:39Z phoe: that's the tool you seem to want to use
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2020-04-28T07:47:52Z doomlist3: runtime is glibc for gcc?
2020-04-28T07:48:02Z beach: doomlist3: Sort of.
2020-04-28T07:48:13Z phoe: not in case of ECL; ECL's runtime is libecl
2020-04-28T07:48:39Z beach: doomlist3: But Common Lisp is way more complicated than C, so it needs a lot more run-time support.
2020-04-28T07:48:50Z phoe: ^
2020-04-28T07:48:51Z Shinmera: the C runtime is your operating system, plus possibly glibc.
2020-04-28T07:49:33Z beach: doomlist3: The compiler is required to be present in Common Lisp at run-time.  Not so in C.
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2020-04-28T07:57:30Z doomlist3: (ql:quickload "system-name") what is system-name?
2020-04-28T07:57:39Z doomlist3: is it hostname? or username?
2020-04-28T07:57:48Z doomlist3: or something else entirely
2020-04-28T07:57:49Z jdz: It's the thing you want to load.
2020-04-28T07:57:58Z beach: It's the name of a system.
2020-04-28T07:58:24Z beach: A "system" in Common Lisp is what is called a "package" in most other languages.
2020-04-28T07:59:20Z flip214: perhaps "library" might be a synonym as well
2020-04-28T07:59:22Z phoe: doomlist3: sounds like you might want to enroll in #clschool
2020-04-28T07:59:31Z doomlist3: what do i need system-name to be to run (ql:system-apropos "vecto")
2020-04-28T08:00:06Z no-defun-allowed: (ql:quickload :vecto) ;; Do you want to load the vecto system?
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2020-04-28T08:00:53Z doomlist3: no-defun-allowed: i just want to install quicklisp
2020-04-28T08:01:06Z doomlist3: i don't know what is vecto
2020-04-28T08:01:33Z no-defun-allowed: There are instructions on https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2020-04-28T08:02:25Z doomlist3: yes
2020-04-28T08:02:33Z doomlist3: that's exactly what i was following before!
2020-04-28T08:05:34Z beach: Then you should have it installed.
2020-04-28T08:07:09Z doomlist3: i am installing common-lisp-jupyter, so should i activate venv and then install quicklisp and common-lisp-jupyter
2020-04-28T08:07:36Z doomlist3: image based , non-image based or quicklisp bundle? https://bpaste.net/ASLQ
2020-04-28T08:11:25Z phoe: I have no idea if cl-jupyter has an IRC channel; this is a highly specific question
2020-04-28T08:11:41Z doomlist3: i am always specific
2020-04-28T08:12:04Z doomlist3: don't you feel jupyter kernels are greatt
2020-04-28T08:12:37Z doomlist3: doesn't anyone here use jupyter kernels?
2020-04-28T08:12:53Z doomlist3: just curious i will ask on #jupyter if any problems persist.
2020-04-28T08:12:57Z White_Flame: if you're doing graphical output stuff, I think it would probably be very beneficial
2020-04-28T08:13:02Z White_Flame: but lisp already has a repl
2020-04-28T08:13:26Z White_Flame: so for what it takes to set up & initialize, not sure it's better to move to that workflow from SLIME
2020-04-28T08:13:29Z doomlist3: but notebooks are super-comfy, i do C stuff do there.
2020-04-28T08:15:07Z beach: Good to know.
2020-04-28T08:15:48Z White_Flame: from the little that I've used jupyter, it seemed less interactive than SLIME
2020-04-28T08:16:07Z White_Flame: and more of a usage testing environment than an actual software development environment
2020-04-28T08:16:24Z doomlist3: https://bpaste.net/CM4Q
2020-04-28T08:16:27Z beach: doomlist3: Try #clasp.  They have been working with Jupyter, as I recall.
2020-04-28T08:16:28Z doomlist3: i am getting rekt
2020-04-28T08:16:56Z White_Flame: first lines: "To continue with installation, evaluate: (quicklisp-quickstart:install)"
2020-04-28T08:17:09Z White_Flame: next input:  "(ql:quickload :common-lisp-jupyter)" :-P
2020-04-28T08:17:32Z White_Flame: the instructions are very well laid out, follow them step by step
2020-04-28T08:17:45Z no-defun-allowed: I think you would need to install the headers for zmq. The version has -debian- in the name, so I would guess it's in a libzmq-dev
2020-04-28T08:17:45Z jdz: doomlist3: You don't have the ZerqMQ development package installed (with C headers).
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2020-04-28T08:18:24Z White_Flame: (ah yeah, scrolling down this isn't a QL installation issue itself)
2020-04-28T08:18:33Z jdz: On Ubuntu I think it's 'libzmq3-dev'.
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2020-04-28T08:21:47Z doomlist3: https://bpaste.net/QZTQ
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2020-04-28T08:22:30Z White_Flame: filesystem permissions error?
2020-04-28T08:22:49Z White_Flame: or do you have some file already named like a directory it wants to create?
2020-04-28T08:23:12Z jdz: The former is more likely.
2020-04-28T08:23:31Z jdz: If the path was already there ENSURE-DIRECTORIES-EXIST would not have to do anything.
2020-04-28T08:23:52Z doomlist3: mkdir .local/share/jupyter/kernels/common-lisp
2020-04-28T08:23:54Z doomlist3: mkdir: cannot create directory ‘.local/share/jupyter/kernels/common-lisp’: Permission denied
2020-04-28T08:24:08Z doomlist3: using sudo it works but it's user becomes root, but i don't intend dto run it as root
2020-04-28T08:24:12Z jdz: doomlist3: Did you mean `mkdir -p ...`?
2020-04-28T08:24:24Z doomlist3: mkdir -p yes i fed the directory
2020-04-28T08:24:41Z doomlist3: jdz: ok i would like to add the path , but which file
2020-04-28T08:24:51Z jdz: It seems you've have done something as a root user already, so you should fix what's broken before proceeding.
2020-04-28T08:25:25Z doomlist3: but path which file to feed
2020-04-28T08:26:10Z White_Flame: erase whatever you made, so that the scripts can make their own directories
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2020-04-28T08:28:14Z doomlist3: i made kernels dir as root which has C kernel inside it
2020-04-28T08:28:24Z doomlist3: mkdir .local/share/jupyter/kernels/common-lisp
2020-04-28T08:28:26Z doomlist3: mkdir: cannot create directory ‘.local/share/jupyter/kernels/common-lisp’: Permission denied
2020-04-28T08:28:37Z doomlist3: sudo chown   -R 755 user:user  ~/.local/share/jupyter/kernels/
2020-04-28T08:28:39Z doomlist3: chown: cannot access 'user:user': No such file or directory
2020-04-28T08:28:41Z doomlist3: sorry
2020-04-28T08:29:30Z jdz: doomlist3: Remove 755.
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2020-04-28T08:33:12Z doomlist3: https://bpaste.net/JRJQ let's just hope now it begins. i put a lot of effort into this
2020-04-28T08:33:39Z doomlist3: ahh finally happiness
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2020-04-28T08:40:40Z doomlist3: jdz: i am happy now.
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2020-04-28T08:49:09Z jdz: doomlist3: Great, I'm happy you got it working, too!
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2020-04-28T09:03:32Z momozor: Hi
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2020-04-28T09:04:14Z momozor: I wonder when should I choose to use declaim, declare and check-type?
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2020-04-28T09:04:40Z beach: momozor: Many of us are busy attending ELS.
2020-04-28T09:04:51Z momozor: Oh
2020-04-28T09:04:52Z momozor: sorry
2020-04-28T09:05:08Z jdz: momozor: You can do it too, at https://www.twitch.tv/elsconf
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2020-04-28T09:05:23Z beach: Just explaining why some people are not very reactive right now.
2020-04-28T09:05:36Z momozor: jdz: thanks for the link
2020-04-28T09:05:56Z momozor: beach: also thanks for letting me know
2020-04-28T09:06:02Z beach: Sure.
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2020-04-28T09:07:12Z no-defun-allowed: To my knowledge, the consequences are undefined if you (declare (type ty p)) and P is not of type TY.
2020-04-28T09:08:18Z no-defun-allowed: If you want to assert that a variable is bound to a value of some type, use CHECK-TYPE.
2020-04-28T09:09:49Z frgo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-04-28T09:10:51Z phoe: momozor: CHECK-TYPE is for type assertions
2020-04-28T09:11:05Z phoe: DECLARE is for declarations that are not top-level
2020-04-28T09:11:20Z phoe: DECLAIM is for declarations that are toplevel - also called proclamations
2020-04-28T09:11:40Z phoe: like, (DECLARE ...) at toplevel is an error, but (DECLAIM ...) is not
2020-04-28T09:12:16Z momozor: no-defun-allowed, phoe: CHECK-TYPE will only assert at runtime. I believe?
2020-04-28T09:12:45Z phoe: momozor: depends on the compiler. SBCL tends to optimize it away and also warn if it detects a type mismatch at compile-time.
2020-04-28T09:13:09Z phoe: also, CHECK-TYPE actually prevents you against supplying an object of wrong type by means of signaling an error
2020-04-28T09:13:40Z phoe: type declarations are allowed to just proceed
2020-04-28T09:13:48Z phoe: and at that point, the behaviour is undefined.
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2020-04-28T09:14:32Z beach observes that phoe is either not interested in his talk, or phoe is a much better multi-processor. :)
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2020-04-28T09:16:31Z momozor: phoe: thanks! :D
2020-04-28T09:16:35Z nika joined #lisp
2020-04-28T09:21:35Z phoe: momozor: I am multitasking
2020-04-28T09:22:09Z phoe: I am currently listening the ELS talks, answering IRC, and handling people who are performing fixes in the flat I'm in
2020-04-28T09:22:53Z beach: Impressive!
2020-04-28T09:26:34Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-04-28T09:27:19Z phoe: and annoying
2020-04-28T09:27:34Z phoe: but that's when things collide, I wish I could focus on my computer and therefore on Lisp-related things
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2020-04-28T09:28:18Z selwyn: what are they fixing?
2020-04-28T09:29:02Z phoe: a pigeon-inflicted balcony malfunction
2020-04-28T09:29:42Z selwyn: :/ busy day for you then
2020-04-28T09:30:06Z easye: phoe: What the hell do you feed your pigeons in Poland?
2020-04-28T09:31:07Z phoe: easye: pierogi and bigos and vodka, they're a part of family
2020-04-28T09:31:10Z phoe moves to #lispcafe
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2020-04-28T10:00:57Z rtvdenys: Hi
2020-04-28T10:01:14Z beach: Hello rtvdenys.
2020-04-28T10:01:15Z ArthurStrong: Hi indeed
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2020-04-28T10:01:24Z rtvdenys: I am compiling some code with SBCL via ASDF and I see a bunch of warnings
2020-04-28T10:01:45Z rtvdenys: However, the warnings do not mention the files and lines in the files where the problem is.
2020-04-28T10:02:12Z rtvdenys: Does anybody have recommendations on how to increase the verbosity?
2020-04-28T10:02:23Z beach: Try compiling from SLIME and you usually get the code underlined.
2020-04-28T10:02:42Z rtvdenys: Tried that but it does not show anything additional.
2020-04-28T10:02:48Z beach: And set the DEBUG quality to 3.  It is not that high by default.
2020-04-28T10:03:22Z beach: Oh, I meant C-c C-k in the Emacs buffer.
2020-04-28T10:03:27Z rtvdenys: Is it something I can do without touching the source code?
2020-04-28T10:03:37Z beach: Yes, in your .sbclrc
2020-04-28T10:04:16Z rtvdenys: For C-c C-k I need to know which file is producing those warnings but I do not know even that.
2020-04-28T10:04:16Z beach: (proclaim '(optimize (debug 3) ...))
2020-04-28T10:04:28Z beach: That's very strange.
2020-04-28T10:05:22Z rtvdenys: Tried a few things. Even in a fresh sbcl session I do not see much if I run this:
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2020-04-28T10:05:24Z rtvdenys: (proclaim '(optimize (debug 3)))
2020-04-28T10:05:27Z phoe: rtvdenys: (asdf:load-system :foo :verbose t :force t) should give you a log
2020-04-28T10:05:32Z rtvdenys: (asdf:compile-system "cl-async")
2020-04-28T10:05:46Z rixard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-04-28T10:06:53Z phoe: see https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1781#1781
2020-04-28T10:07:15Z rtvdenys: (asdf:compile-system :cl-async :verbose t :force t) made it error and the error is quite unclear. I suspect it did not like those asdf options
2020-04-28T10:07:24Z phoe: post the error!
2020-04-28T10:07:30Z phoe: also, post (asdf:asdf-version)
2020-04-28T10:07:35Z phoe: and please use a pastebin
2020-04-28T10:08:10Z rtvdenys: "3.3.1"
2020-04-28T10:08:16Z phoe: OK, recent enough
2020-04-28T10:08:29Z rtvdenys: debugger invoked on a UIOP/LISP-BUILD:COMPILE-FILE-ERROR in thread
2020-04-28T10:08:29Z rtvdenys: #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {10005504C3}>:
2020-04-28T10:08:29Z rtvdenys:   COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while compiling #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "cl-async" "src" "tcp">
2020-04-28T10:08:29Z rtvdenys: Type HELP for debugger help, or (SB-EXT:EXIT) to exit from SBCL.
2020-04-28T10:08:29Z rtvdenys: restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name):
2020-04-28T10:08:30Z rtvdenys:   0: [RETRY                        ] Retry
2020-04-28T10:08:32Z rtvdenys:                                      compiling #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "cl-async" "src" "tcp">.
2020-04-28T10:08:34Z rtvdenys:   1: [ACCEPT                       ] Continue, treating
2020-04-28T10:08:36Z rtvdenys:                                      compiling #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "cl-async" "src" "tcp">
2020-04-28T10:08:38Z rtvdenys:                                      as having been successful.
2020-04-28T10:08:38Z Shinmera: sigh
2020-04-28T10:08:40Z rtvdenys:   2:                                 Retry ASDF operation.
2020-04-28T10:08:42Z rtvdenys:   3: [CLEAR-CONFIGURATION-AND-RETRY] Retry ASDF operation after resetting the
2020-04-28T10:08:46Z rtvdenys:                                      configuration.
2020-04-28T10:08:48Z rtvdenys:   4:                                 Retry ASDF operation.
2020-04-28T10:08:50Z rtvdenys:   5:                                 Retry ASDF operation after resetting the
2020-04-28T10:08:52Z rtvdenys:                                      configuration.
2020-04-28T10:08:54Z rtvdenys:   6: [ABORT                        ] Exit debugger, returning to top level.
2020-04-28T10:08:56Z rtvdenys: (UIOP/LISP-BUILD:CHECK-LISP-COMPILE-RESULTS NIL T T "~/asdf-action::format-action/" ((#<ASDF/LISP-ACTION:COMPILE-OP > . #<ASDF/LISP-ACTION:CL-SOURCE-FILE "cl-async" "src" "tcp">)))
2020-04-28T10:08:57Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe
2020-04-28T10:08:59Z rtvdenys:    source: (ERROR 'COMPILE-FILE-ERROR :CONTEXT-FORMAT CONTEXT-FORMAT
2020-04-28T10:09:01Z rtvdenys:                   :CONTEXT-ARGUMENTS CONTEXT-ARGUMENTS)
2020-04-28T10:09:03Z rtvdenys: Does it look like something decipherable?
2020-04-28T10:09:03Z rtvdenys [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (rtvdenys)
2020-04-28T10:10:05Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe
2020-04-28T10:10:32Z phoe reloads
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2020-04-28T10:11:19Z rtvdenys: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1782#1782
2020-04-28T10:11:26Z Shinmera: rtvdenys: Check the REPL for warning messages
2020-04-28T10:11:42Z phoe: rtvdenys: basically, what happens, is: ASDF treats all* compile-time warnings as errors and signals an error
2020-04-28T10:11:43Z Shinmera: C-s WARNING
2020-04-28T10:12:13Z phoe: You also get the warning file name in the error message - so you know that cl-async/src/tcp.lisp is the faulting file
2020-04-28T10:12:18Z phoe: use that to debug your issue
2020-04-28T10:12:56Z rtvdenys: Ah.. Makes sense. I see lots of warnings. I guess I will try to identify them one by one and get rid of them.
2020-04-28T10:13:01Z rtvdenys: Thank you very much.
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2020-04-28T10:13:54Z no-defun-allowed: Can we see a backtrace?
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2020-04-28T10:14:19Z no-defun-allowed: (:backtrace in the debugger will print that out)
2020-04-28T10:14:51Z phoe: rtvdenys: are you installing cl-async from quicklisp?
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2020-04-28T10:15:06Z phoe: it should work out of the box and compile
2020-04-28T10:15:55Z no-defun-allowed: Do you have libuv installed?
2020-04-28T10:16:00Z doomlist3: (defun hello-world () (list (3 45)) OUT: end of file on #<SB-IMPL::STRING-INPUT-STREAM {1004BCB213}>
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2020-04-28T10:16:25Z rtvdenys: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1783#1783
2020-04-28T10:16:38Z rtvdenys: Yes, I do have libuv.
2020-04-28T10:16:46Z beach: doomlist3: Count your parentheses.
2020-04-28T10:16:47Z pve: doomlist3: you need one more ")"
2020-04-28T10:17:06Z rtvdenys: I have checked out cl-async from github to figure out how it works and tried to compile it.
2020-04-28T10:17:24Z no-defun-allowed: Well, it doesn't appear you are grabbing the quicklisp version. That would probably fare better,
2020-04-28T10:17:26Z phoe: rtvdenys: which repo URL?
2020-04-28T10:17:46Z phoe: QL grabs it from https://github.com/orthecreedence/cl-async.git
2020-04-28T10:17:54Z rtvdenys: https://github.com/orthecreedence/cl-async.git
2020-04-28T10:17:59Z rtvdenys: That's the one I check out
2020-04-28T10:18:00Z doomlist3: https://bpaste.net/FCEQ
2020-04-28T10:18:01Z phoe: so it's the same
2020-04-28T10:18:19Z phoe: doomlist3: #clschool plus some programming books might benefit you more
2020-04-28T10:18:56Z phoe: rtvdenys: I have no idea why you get these warnings; cl-async is supposed to compile cleanly if it is on quicklisp
2020-04-28T10:18:57Z beach: doomlist3: This is elementary stuff.  You need to grab a book and read it.
2020-04-28T10:18:59Z phoe: let me try to reproduce...
2020-04-28T10:20:03Z White_Flame: minion: tell doomlist3 about pcl
2020-04-28T10:20:04Z minion: doomlist3: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-04-28T10:20:20Z doomlist3: minion: i was reading exactly that!
2020-04-28T10:20:21Z minion: well, i've never been reading exactly that
2020-04-28T10:20:42Z no-defun-allowed: I can load it with (ql:quickload :cl-async)
2020-04-28T10:20:59Z Cymew: doomlist3: Learn to use an editor that helps you balance the parens, and it will be much easier.
2020-04-28T10:21:29Z Cymew: doomlist3: I don't remember if Peter talks about that, but there are options.
2020-04-28T10:21:46Z phoe: rtvdenys: can't reproduce, it compiles cleanly on my machine. What's your repository version and which commit is your repository at?
2020-04-28T10:21:48Z beach: doomlist3: Then you will know that (<something> <something-else>) means that <something> is an operator that is applied to <something-else> as an argument.
2020-04-28T10:21:54Z Cymew: doomlist3: emacs and slime is probably most commonly used on linux.
2020-04-28T10:21:57Z beach: doomlist3: And a number is not a valid operator.
2020-04-28T10:22:27Z rtvdenys: 1ea183a31fa6994129625e3ab2e87ff02458a0f2 <- git revision
2020-04-28T10:22:44Z phoe: rtvdenys: what does (asdf:system-relative-pathname :cl-async "") give you?
2020-04-28T10:22:52Z rtvdenys: oh... looks like my SBCL may be old
2020-04-28T10:22:55Z rtvdenys: SBCL 1.5.5.debian
2020-04-28T10:23:05Z phoe: rtvdenys: that's not exactly the newest, yep
2020-04-28T10:23:28Z rtvdenys: That's what is packaged in Ubuntu 19.10. :(
2020-04-28T10:23:31Z phoe: rtvdenys: just to be sure, please give me (asdf:system-relative-pathname :cl-async "")
2020-04-28T10:23:55Z rtvdenys: #P"/home/rtvd/src/ALIEN/cl-async/"
2020-04-28T10:24:06Z doomlist3: okay and i did (defun hello-world () (list 'bull' 3 "shit")) why is bull an atom and "shit" a string
2020-04-28T10:24:22Z rtvdenys: So I should try to get a fresh SBCL and see what happens. Maybe that will sort it out.
2020-04-28T10:24:36Z beach: doomlist3: Strings are atoms.
2020-04-28T10:24:46Z beach: doomlist3: This is really elementary stuff.
2020-04-28T10:25:06Z White_Flame: quote is a unary operator.  It is not a string delimeter pair like doublequote
2020-04-28T10:25:29Z doomlist3: are double and single quotes the same
2020-04-28T10:25:33Z White_Flame: so you really have (list 'bull '3 ...
2020-04-28T10:25:36Z White_Flame: no, read the book
2020-04-28T10:25:50Z White_Flame: you should at least be able to get the basic syntax rules from reference
2020-04-28T10:26:01Z White_Flame: as opposed to just random questions filling in only bits of your understanding
2020-04-28T10:26:56Z doomlist3: by reference you mean gigamonkeys.com?
2020-04-28T10:27:07Z doomlist3: i am reading that book
2020-04-28T10:27:18Z White_Flame: yes, I believe it covers all that
2020-04-28T10:27:42Z _death: 'bull = (quote bull)
2020-04-28T10:27:45Z phoe: rtvdenys: that's good, the pathname to the system seems to be correct.
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2020-04-28T10:28:28Z phoe: let me know what happens after the SBCL update
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2020-04-28T10:42:34Z rtvdenys: I've built sbcl 2.0.4 from source and it compiles differently but it still fails. Perhaps I should remove all .fasl files as they were compiled by the previous version?
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2020-04-28T10:43:15Z phoe: that won't really help, FASLs are already invalidated between SBCL versions
2020-04-28T10:43:16Z rtvdenys: It seems to be failing on static-vectors.asd at the moment.
2020-04-28T10:43:37Z phoe: which version of static-vectors do you have downloaded?
2020-04-28T10:43:51Z phoe: also, once again, why aren't you using quicklisp?
2020-04-28T10:45:20Z rtvdenys: 1.8.4
2020-04-28T10:45:45Z rtvdenys: I think I may have got this one from quicklisp but I am not sure.
2020-04-28T10:45:45Z phoe: you should be able to `cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects && git clone cl-async` and then just (ql:quickload :cl-async)
2020-04-28T10:46:27Z phoe: I mean, your issues are foreign to me, but then also you have a setup that doesn't resemble mine
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2020-04-28T10:46:54Z phoe: I clone only the projects I edit or whose changes are not yet upstreamed to Quicklisp; the rest, QL pulls for me, including all the dependencies
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2020-04-28T10:49:33Z rtvdenys: (quicklisp:quickload :cl-async) works fine. But then it may be hiding some warnings, may it not?
2020-04-28T10:50:08Z phoe: rtvdenys: no, it still uses ASDF under the hood
2020-04-28T10:50:18Z phoe: ...but wait a second
2020-04-28T10:50:22Z _death: (setf ql:*quicklisp-verbose* t) in your rc file
2020-04-28T10:50:30Z phoe: again, (asdf:system-relative-pathname :cl-async "")
2020-04-28T10:50:56Z phoe: I want to double-check this one because this still looks like two different versions of cl-async
2020-04-28T10:50:59Z _death: that is, ql:*quickload-verbose*
2020-04-28T10:52:55Z rtvdenys: Hm.. I do not seem to have ql:*quicklisp-verbose*
2020-04-28T10:53:11Z rtvdenys: relative pathname of cl-async still points at the version I have checkout of from github
2020-04-28T10:54:19Z Xach: (ql:quickload :cl-async :verbose t) will show warnings as it builds - but if it's fasl cached already you won't see compilation warnings.
2020-04-28T10:54:32Z phoe: okay, I have no idea why now it compiled fine where previously it didn't compile fine
2020-04-28T10:54:38Z phoe: wat.asd
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2020-04-28T10:55:29Z rtvdenys: When I do it from quicklisp then I see no warnings reported. If I try to do it with asdf:load-system then I see a bunch of warnings
2020-04-28T10:56:04Z rtvdenys: Ah...
2020-04-28T10:56:27Z rtvdenys: In a fresh session (quicklisp:quickload :cl-async :verbose t) shows warnings
2020-04-28T10:57:12Z rtvdenys: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1785#1785
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2020-04-28T10:58:06Z _death: unimportant warnings
2020-04-28T10:58:48Z rtvdenys: OK. Maybe they are unimportant. But still, how do I find out which file do they relate to?
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2020-04-28T10:59:16Z phoe: they don't seem like they come from cl-async
2020-04-28T10:59:34Z phoe: they come from CFFI, https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/5db779dae91945f9edb68552a2fa04e1484b4ac3/src/types.lisp#L620
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2020-04-28T11:00:39Z _death: rtvdenys: it looks like you didn't compile from scratch..
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2020-04-28T11:01:14Z phoe: rtvdenys: I'd try to (handler-bind ((style-warning #'break)) (ql:quickload ...)) to capture these style warnings
2020-04-28T11:01:38Z phoe: that'll enter the debugger every time a style-warning is signaled
2020-04-28T11:02:00Z _death: if you delete the cl-async fasls and load verbose, you'll be able to determine where the warnings come from
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2020-04-28T11:12:36Z rtvdenys: Found it. The warnings are reported in cl-libuv's grovel file
2020-04-28T11:13:40Z rtvdenys: For that I have removed all fasls and ran (quicklisp:quickload :cl-async :verbose t :force t), sending everything to a "less" program.
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2020-04-28T11:15:50Z phoe: ooooh
2020-04-28T11:16:36Z phoe: I see - then you'll perhaps want to submit a ticket for that
2020-04-28T11:16:39Z phoe: https://github.com/orthecreedence/cl-libuv/issues
2020-04-28T11:18:46Z rtvdenys: Thankyou
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2020-04-28T11:32:16Z doomlist3: hi
2020-04-28T11:32:17Z doomlist3: https://bpaste.net/HLZA
2020-04-28T11:32:30Z doomlist3: 200 or 2 it gives same spaces column width??
2020-04-28T11:32:32Z doomlist3: what's wrong
2020-04-28T11:36:04Z ck_: doomlist3: "works for me" .. which lisp are you using?
2020-04-28T11:36:26Z doomlist3: common-lisp-jupyter notebook I see only the same spaces not 200 spaces
2020-04-28T11:36:32Z doomlist3: which would be a lot and would be visible.
2020-04-28T11:36:39Z doomlist3: ck_: can you show me the output
2020-04-28T11:36:46Z jdz: doomlist3: I bet it squashes all the spaces.
2020-04-28T11:37:16Z jdz: Maybe because that's how the HTML works if the content is not in any of the "pre-formatted" elements.
2020-04-28T11:37:57Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1786#1786
2020-04-28T11:38:05Z phoe: works for me in terminal
2020-04-28T11:38:47Z phoe: so that's likely the cl-jupyter bug
2020-04-28T11:38:57Z phoe: orrrr something in the config?... I dunno
2020-04-28T11:39:28Z phoe: I know nothing about Jupyter itself
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2020-04-28T11:43:10Z ck_: doomlist3: maybe take a look at the html source to see whether it's actually the browser that modfiies the output
2020-04-28T11:47:13Z ck_: also, try comparing the output of these: (format t "~a:~20,1,0@a" :format "test") and (format t "~a:~20,1,0'_@a" :format "test")
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2020-04-28T11:51:27Z ck_: sorry, the latter is missing a comma before the ' -- it should be (format t "~a:~20,1,0,'_@a" :format "test")
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2020-04-28T15:17:19Z Nilby: #els2020
2020-04-28T15:17:58Z beach: That works?
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2020-04-28T15:40:30Z theseb: So is it customary for an interpreter to only print the value of the LAST expression?  (I'm writing my own little implementation)
2020-04-28T15:40:54Z theseb: is it ever normal/conventional to print ALL values of ALL the evaluated expressions?
2020-04-28T15:42:08Z beach: theseb: It depends on the context.
2020-04-28T15:42:25Z beach: theseb: Besides, it might not be an interpreter.
2020-04-28T15:43:21Z beach: theseb: Most modern Common Lisp implementations compile on the fly to native code.
2020-04-28T15:45:34Z phoe: theseb: is your Lisp going to have a REPL?
2020-04-28T15:46:20Z phoe: also, what do you mean, all values of all evaluated expressions
2020-04-28T15:46:37Z phoe: if you use a REPL, you talk with the REPL expression-after-expression
2020-04-28T15:46:41Z beach: Using LOAD, maybe?
2020-04-28T15:46:56Z phoe: if you load or compile a file, it's usually unnecessary to print the results
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2020-04-28T15:47:41Z phoe: if you have several DEFUNs in there, for instance, I can't really find a use case for printing all the function names to the REPL
2020-04-28T15:56:05Z theseb: phoe: my interpreter reads a file of expressions and emits results
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2020-04-28T15:56:57Z theseb: phoe: so if i read a file you recommend printing just the last value?
2020-04-28T15:59:43Z phoe: theseb: nope, I recommend printing only the result of LOAD
2020-04-28T15:59:45Z phoe: clhs load
2020-04-28T15:59:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm
2020-04-28T15:59:58Z phoe: only print if there are explicit PRINT calls in your code
2020-04-28T16:00:35Z beach: theseb: It is a Read-Eval-Print-Loop.
2020-04-28T16:00:50Z beach: theseb: Nothing is printed when the code is read.
2020-04-28T16:01:16Z theseb: beach: not when read but what about when *evaluted*?
2020-04-28T16:01:29Z beach: No, not when evaluated.
2020-04-28T16:01:40Z beach: The value of the evaluation is printed.
2020-04-28T16:01:55Z beach: If you load the file using LOAD, then the value stipulated by LOAD is printed.
2020-04-28T16:03:27Z beach: theseb: In the case of Common Lisp LOAD, a single generalized Boolean value is returned, so that is the one that is printed.
2020-04-28T16:04:28Z beach: theseb: EVAL is just a function that takes a form and returns a value.  No printing there either.
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2020-04-28T16:18:43Z axion: Xach: I am experiencing some strangeness with zpb-exif
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2020-04-28T16:20:37Z Xach: wow, two people mentioning it in a week, that is a record for zpb-exif
2020-04-28T16:20:42Z axion: exif-alist works, but ifd-alist is giving a no applicable method error (zpb-exif::entries when called with an exif instance argument)
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2020-04-28T16:20:54Z Xach: hmm
2020-04-28T16:20:58Z Xach: is it an image you can share?
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2020-04-28T16:21:19Z axion: Well it's not jpeg. I'm using 3b's fork that allows parsing an octet vector rather than a file
2020-04-28T16:21:30Z axion: But it parses successfully. I can see all the key/values
2020-04-28T16:21:38Z Xach: oh
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2020-04-28T16:23:34Z axion: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/8eb405670f35231689779b85773d6120
2020-04-28T16:24:57Z Xach: axion: ifd-alist is called on an ifd, not an exif...
2020-04-28T16:25:14Z axion: [Function]
2020-04-28T16:25:14Z axion: exif-alist exif &key parsedp => alist
2020-04-28T16:25:17Z axion: oops :)
2020-04-28T16:25:32Z axion: or rather
2020-04-28T16:25:33Z axion: [Function]
2020-04-28T16:25:34Z axion: ifd-alist exif &key parsedp => alist
2020-04-28T16:25:43Z axion: reading the docs :)
2020-04-28T16:26:05Z Xach: that is definitely a doc bug. it's meant to take one of the ifds in the exif, not the exif.
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2020-04-28T16:26:55Z Xach: like image-ifd, exif-ifd, gps-ifd
2020-04-28T16:27:24Z axion: I see, thanks
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2020-04-28T16:32:24Z axion: Xach: I get the same alist with (exif-alist exif :parsedp t) that i do with (ifd-alist (image-ifd exif) :parsedp t). Is that correct? I'm not very familiar with this format
2020-04-28T16:32:45Z Xach: axion: I don't remember, sorry.
2020-04-28T16:33:00Z axion: Ok
2020-04-28T16:33:06Z Xach: I *think* it might help to know the exif standard well before using zpb-exif, but I'm not sure.
2020-04-28T16:33:40Z Xach: I honestly can't remember why I wrote it. possibly for some graphics website or something.
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2020-04-28T16:34:45Z axion: Well regardless, it works and it's better than the only other parser, so thanks! pngload will soon have exif support
2020-04-28T16:34:56Z Xach: sweet
2020-04-28T16:39:36Z axion: I think 3b is going to send you a PR for reading from an octet vector (simple change, additional non-breaking API function)
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2020-04-28T16:50:06Z Xach: doc fix would be welcome too!
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2020-04-28T16:57:11Z |3b|: yeah, will send a PR for the exit octet-vector stuff after testing it a bit more.
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2020-04-28T16:57:57Z |3b|: i think exif-alist includes image-ifd and a few other common IFDs, but not all of them, so you need ifd-alist for the rest
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2020-04-28T17:23:08Z MerlinTheWizard: In PCL Chapter 20 - The Special Operators, under "Unwinding the Stack", Peter Seibel talks about 'closures' and uses the phrase 'closed over' to mean something that to me doesn't sound any different from 'referenced':
2020-04-28T17:23:14Z MerlinTheWizard: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/the-special-operators.html
2020-04-28T17:23:49Z MerlinTheWizard: What is the difference in that context between a 'closure' and a 'reference'? Can anyone tell me?
2020-04-28T17:24:19Z |3b|: if you have a variable binding (let ((x 1)) ...) the binding normally no longer exists after that LET form exits
2020-04-28T17:25:17Z |3b|: if it is (let ((x 1)) (lambda () x)), the function returned from the let continues to use that binding, so it continues to exist, and that is called a closure, and x is "closed over"
2020-04-28T17:25:24Z Xach: a closure is a function object. the references to enclosing lexical bindings distinguish a mundane function object from a closure.
2020-04-28T17:25:49Z Bike: it's a bit more complicated since in this context, rather than closing over a binding, it's closing over an exit point, which does actually cease being valid once the block exits
2020-04-28T17:26:09Z |3b|: in particular, if you have (let ((x 1)) (lambda () x) (lambda () (incf x))), both function continue to access the /same/ binding of X, so calling the 2nd will change the value returned by the first
2020-04-28T17:26:55Z MerlinTheWizard: |3b|, I very roughly understand that explanation of closure, but it doesn't seem to apply here in this context.
2020-04-28T17:27:00Z |3b|: ah, same thing applies to block names and tags, though you can't access those after it exits
2020-04-28T17:27:06Z MerlinTheWizard: It looks just like a normal reference to me.
2020-04-28T17:27:26Z MerlinTheWizard: Can you explain why?
2020-04-28T17:28:44Z |3b|: hmm, to some extent there might not be much difference in that case, since it is limited to the scope of the outer form
2020-04-28T17:28:44Z MerlinTheWizard: I mean in this context, BLOCK a just exists for its normal lexical scope. There's no modification of the scope of a reference. So how is it a closure?
2020-04-28T17:29:52Z |3b|: though it still has to maintain a reference to the containing environment in the function object
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2020-04-28T17:30:16Z Bike: because it refers to the same block even if called in a context in which there's another block with the same name
2020-04-28T17:30:19Z MerlinTheWizard: 3b, like any ordinary lexical symbol, as far as I know.
2020-04-28T17:30:35Z Bike: well, yes, it's like any ordinary lexical variable in that respect
2020-04-28T17:30:42Z Bike: lexical variables are also closed over
2020-04-28T17:30:52Z |3b|: (lambda (x) x) contains its own environment, and doesn't reference anything outside that function
2020-04-28T17:31:12Z |3b|: (let ((x 1)) (lambda () x)) has to keep a ref to the containing environment
2020-04-28T17:31:16Z Bike: if you have (block nil (let ((f (lambda () (return-from nil)))) (block nil (funcall f)) (print "H")))), no H is printed
2020-04-28T17:31:18Z |3b|: block works the same way
2020-04-28T17:31:34Z Bike: since the function knows where it's supposed to return to - it's "closed over" that information
2020-04-28T17:31:39Z |3b|: yeah, that :)
2020-04-28T17:33:03Z Bike: if you do this with catch/throw (the operators explained a bit farther on in the text), nothing is closed over and H is printed
2020-04-28T17:33:06Z MerlinTheWizard: Bike, I need someone to draw me a picture or something. This concept is hard enough to grasp on it's own, but when the term 'closure' is used when 'reference' would do, it makes understanding this idea even harder.
2020-04-28T17:33:54Z MerlinTheWizard: Bike, Catch and throw, don't these usually kind of break the lexical environment?
2020-04-28T17:33:57Z phoe: MerlinTheWizard: what does "reference" mean in your internal language?
2020-04-28T17:34:01Z TMA: MerlinTheWizard: basically, there are two kinds of reference.
2020-04-28T17:34:04Z Bike: i don't know what you mean by "break the lexical environment".
2020-04-28T17:34:07Z phoe: MerlinTheWizard: lisp CATCH and THROW are dynamic, not lexical
2020-04-28T17:34:15Z TMA: MerlinTheWizard: a lexical and a dynamic
2020-04-28T17:34:27Z phoe: they are like BLOCK and RETURN-FROM except they work dynamically and can therefore be e.g. in separate functions
2020-04-28T17:34:45Z MerlinTheWizard: phoe, yes, that's kind of what I mean.
2020-04-28T17:34:53Z phoe: (defun foo () (throw 'shuriken 42)) (defun bar () (catch 'shuriken (foo)))
2020-04-28T17:35:01Z phoe: (bar) ;=> 42
2020-04-28T17:35:01Z MerlinTheWizard: I guess 'break' might be a harsh word there.
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2020-04-28T17:35:24Z phoe: BLOCK and RETURN-FROM work lexically
2020-04-28T17:36:02Z MerlinTheWizard: phoe, 'reference' is quite a broad term, a very fundamental term within semantics, and therefore hard to define.
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2020-04-28T17:36:20Z Bike: and closure and reference mean different things. casually, i might say that a "closure" "closes over" a variable so that the correct one can be "referenced" when the function is called
2020-04-28T17:36:21Z MerlinTheWizard: Usually when a refers to b, a can stand in for b.
2020-04-28T17:36:57Z Bike: lisp has lots of side effects, so referential transparency like that isn't quite enough
2020-04-28T17:38:15Z MerlinTheWizard: Bike, in this case the semantics of the supposed 'closure' seems to refer to something that happens in any ordinary function return.
2020-04-28T17:38:31Z Grue`: what is the context where the word 'closure' can be replaced by 'reference'? seems like refer to completely different things
2020-04-28T17:38:33Z MerlinTheWizard: It seems like the 'BLOCK' could just be replaced by a function.
2020-04-28T17:38:41Z Bike: you say "ordinary" but this is like, not something that's possible in many languages.
2020-04-28T17:38:44Z phoe: MerlinTheWizard: which sort of function?
2020-04-28T17:38:57Z MerlinTheWizard: In PCL Chapter 20 - The Special Operators, under "Unwinding the Stack", Peter Seibel talks about 'closures' and uses the phrase 'closed over' to mean something that to me doesn't sound any different from 'referenced':
2020-04-28T17:38:57Z MerlinTheWizard: <MerlinTheWizard> http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/the-special-operators.html
2020-04-28T17:39:06Z Bike: yes, we know that part
2020-04-28T17:39:09Z Grue`: i saw that
2020-04-28T17:39:11Z phoe: BLOCK is a control flow operator that you can return values from
2020-04-28T17:39:16Z Grue`: but i still don't understand your point
2020-04-28T17:39:24Z MerlinTheWizard: phoe, precisely, just like a function.
2020-04-28T17:39:35Z Bike: huh?
2020-04-28T17:39:38Z phoe: MerlinTheWizard: I still don't understand
2020-04-28T17:39:42Z MerlinTheWizard: This could be replaced by a pure function with no side effects couldn't it?
2020-04-28T17:39:42Z phoe: can you give me a code example?
2020-04-28T17:39:52Z phoe: no, why?
2020-04-28T17:40:00Z phoe: the code inside the BLOCK can freely perform side effects
2020-04-28T17:40:01Z TMA: MerlinTheWizard: do you understand the difference between a dynamic binding and a lexical binding?
2020-04-28T17:40:01Z Bike: okay, so let's take the first example in that section of the book there.
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2020-04-28T17:40:31Z phoe: (block nil (print 42) ... (when (foo-p) (return-from nil 42)) ...)
2020-04-28T17:40:34Z Bike: the point is that when bar is called, it calls that lambda, which immediately returns from (block a...), so the "Leaving BLOCK" is never executed.
2020-04-28T17:40:48Z MerlinTheWizard: TMA, yes. dynamic is sort of global - sort of.
2020-04-28T17:41:11Z Shinmera: Wha
2020-04-28T17:41:16Z Bike: you could like, rewrite this in continuation passing style or something and then it could be all pure functions. maybe that's what you mean?
2020-04-28T17:41:20Z TMA: MerlinTheWizard: if so then 'close over x' means 'keep reference to the lexical binding currently in effect' and closure is the result of that process
2020-04-28T17:41:45Z MerlinTheWizard: Bike, that's what happens with typical early 'return', which can happen in a pure function.
2020-04-28T17:42:07Z TMA: MerlinTheWizard: so closure is not something that is a reference, but something that keeps the reference inside itself intact
2020-04-28T17:42:14Z Bike: MerlinTheWizard: let's back up a moment. you say "typical". what is your reference frame for "typical"? are you thinking of some other programming language or what?
2020-04-28T17:42:24Z Grue`: A is "closed over" B is more like B is "referenced" by A. So it's kind of the opposite?
2020-04-28T17:42:42Z MerlinTheWizard: Bike, yeah, languages like 'C' and 'Bash' behave this way.
2020-04-28T17:42:58Z phoe: MerlinTheWizard: in Lisp you don't have to early-return from a pure function
2020-04-28T17:43:04Z phoe: you don't even have to return from a function
2020-04-28T17:43:09Z Bike: C does not have closures at all, so the example in the book is not possible.
2020-04-28T17:43:17Z Bike: I mean, there's nothing analogous to LAMBDA, right?
2020-04-28T17:43:19Z phoe: (if foo-p (block nil ...) (block another-nil ...)) is perfectly fine
2020-04-28T17:43:21Z MerlinTheWizard: phoe, there is an implicit return in lisp.
2020-04-28T17:43:43Z Bike: You can pass function pointers around, but when a "return" statement is executed, it returns only from the function the statement is in.
2020-04-28T17:45:04Z MerlinTheWizard: Bike, is the lambda in bar?
2020-04-28T17:45:39Z Bike: Again, I'm talking about the first example in the section you linked. Consider (bar #'(lambda () (return-from a))). How would you write that in C?
2020-04-28T17:45:40Z phoe: in the PCL example, an anonymous function is passed to bar as an argument
2020-04-28T17:45:43Z MerlinTheWizard: It looks like it's kind of tacked on to bar.
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2020-04-28T17:45:53Z phoe: it's not really tacked on, it's a separate function
2020-04-28T17:46:00Z Bike: BAR is just a function. (bar #'(lambda () (return-from a))) is a function call with one argument.
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2020-04-28T17:46:18Z phoe: this is equivalent to (let ((fn (lambda () (return-from a)))) (bar fn))
2020-04-28T17:46:30Z MerlinTheWizard: Oh, bar takes a function argument, that's right.
2020-04-28T17:46:37Z Bike: right.
2020-04-28T17:46:53Z MerlinTheWizard: So the lambda makes bar close over the BLOCK?
2020-04-28T17:46:59Z Bike: yes.
2020-04-28T17:47:08Z Bike: this function's body is (return-from a). It returns from the (block a...), which is outside the function itself.
2020-04-28T17:47:20Z Bike: This is not something you can do in C (I mean there's longjmp, but it sucks)
2020-04-28T17:47:20Z MerlinTheWizard: Ok, so block captures the reference. I believe I'm sort of getting it now.
2020-04-28T17:47:50Z phoe: the block doesn't capture anything, it just stands there
2020-04-28T17:48:03Z phoe: it is the function that now "remembers" where it needs to return to
2020-04-28T17:48:04Z Bike: the block kind of is the thing being captured.
2020-04-28T17:48:10Z MerlinTheWizard: phoe, I got that. BLOCK is the object referred to.
2020-04-28T17:48:15Z phoe: yes
2020-04-28T17:48:35Z phoe: in Lisp, and not only, that is called "closing over" some things
2020-04-28T17:48:49Z phoe: a function can close over a block and then that function can go into other places
2020-04-28T17:48:51Z MerlinTheWizard: So, in a closure, a referenced symbol is always made available outside of it's normal scope?
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2020-04-28T17:49:04Z phoe: it's not really a symbol that is being made available
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2020-04-28T17:49:08Z Bike: It's still in scope.
2020-04-28T17:49:11Z JuxTApoze: o/ all
2020-04-28T17:49:15Z phoe: it is the block, in this case
2020-04-28T17:49:31Z phoe: JuxTApoze: helloooo
2020-04-28T17:50:12Z MerlinTheWizard: Right, so bar is running within that scope. I guess that's what threw me.
2020-04-28T17:50:39Z MerlinTheWizard: So why is it a closure then, if it's still in the same scope?
2020-04-28T17:51:14Z MerlinTheWizard: Because bar doesn't normally have that block as a thing to return from?
2020-04-28T17:51:16Z Bike: Why is the (lambda () (return-from a)) a closure?
2020-04-28T17:51:26Z MerlinTheWizard: Yeah.
2020-04-28T17:51:57Z phoe: because it refers to a block named by symbol A, even though that block is outside the body of that function
2020-04-28T17:52:02Z Bike: I gave an example a while ago. The closure has to "know" where it's returning from. For example, if the body of the BAR function had another (block a ...), that would have no relevance on where the closure would return from.
2020-04-28T17:53:09Z MerlinTheWizard: So bar's own lexical binding of 'block a' is shadowed, and that makes it a closure?
2020-04-28T17:53:27Z Bike: It's not that it's shadowed, it's just not relevant.
2020-04-28T17:53:57Z Bike: What makes (lambda () (return-from a)) a closure is that it refers to a kind of lexical binding outside the function body, so it has to carry information about that binding around.
2020-04-28T17:54:11Z Bike: a kind of lexical binding FROM outside*
2020-04-28T17:54:28Z Bike: is this not explained earlier in the book for variables?
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2020-04-28T17:54:59Z MerlinTheWizard: Bike, he might have briefly mentioned closures earlier, but I guess I didn't get it.
2020-04-28T17:55:12Z Bike: they're explained in chapter 6, "Variables", it seems
2020-04-28T17:55:29Z Bike: in the "Lexical Variables and Closures" section
2020-04-28T17:55:58Z MerlinTheWizard: Bike, I've read explanations of closures before. They were always confusing to me.
2020-04-28T17:56:41Z MerlinTheWizard: If they always referred to capture of a symbol outside of it's lexical scope, I guess it would make sense to me.
2020-04-28T17:57:24Z MerlinTheWizard: But in this case, the lexical scope is preserved from the perspective of the instance (although not from the definition of bar)
2020-04-28T17:58:20Z Cymew: MerlinTheWizard: This is a really good explanation of closures, if you don't mind the rust code: https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch13-01-closures.html
2020-04-28T17:58:45Z Bike: There's the example of (let ((count 0)) #'(lambda () (setf count (1+ count)))) in the Variables chapter. The point is that the function "closes over" the binding of COUNT, so if you call the function repeatedly it updates that same binding.
2020-04-28T17:59:18Z Bike: as it says, you can do (defparameter *fn* (let ((count 0)) #'(lambda () (setf count (1+ count))))), and then (funcall *fn*) => 1, (funcall *fn*) => 2, ...
2020-04-28T17:59:34Z MerlinTheWizard: Cymew, that looks good, thanks.
2020-04-28T17:59:44Z Bike: i would try to understand it with variables before going on to block/return-from, personally
2020-04-28T18:00:08Z phoe: yes, I'd go with the classical getter/setter example first
2020-04-28T18:00:29Z phoe: (let ((x 0)) (list (lambda () x) (lambda (y) (setf x y))))
2020-04-28T18:00:47Z phoe: there, a closure is just a poor man's object
2020-04-28T18:02:01Z MerlinTheWizard: phoe, everything is an object in CL, so that's kind of a bad wording.
2020-04-28T18:02:52Z Bike: oh shit gottem
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2020-04-28T18:03:01Z Xach: i like to think of a closure as a function that carries around (some of) its defining lexical environment
2020-04-28T18:03:09Z phoe: MerlinTheWizard: an object in the traditional OOP sense; something with slots that you can get and set
2020-04-28T18:03:21Z phoe: s/slots/fields/ ;; if we want to use more traditional terminology
2020-04-28T18:03:33Z fourier: hello all, just want to check if the crowd is here after the conference
2020-04-28T18:03:38Z MerlinTheWizard: Ok, that makes more sense.
2020-04-28T18:04:00Z phoe: fourier: here and in #els2020
2020-04-28T18:04:11Z fourier: oh that channel as well, thanks
2020-04-28T18:05:21Z fourier: anyone able to quickload osicat on LispWorks 32bit for Linux ?
2020-04-28T18:05:56Z MerlinTheWizard: phoe, yes, that makes sense, it just doesn't really apply to the current example, except that a reference is being carried by a function.
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2020-04-28T18:06:08Z fourier: I would think the problem could be with any 32bit CL on Linux: Error: Unable to load any of the alternatives: ("librt.so.1" "librt.so")
2020-04-28T18:06:29Z MerlinTheWizard: Anyway, I'm probably getting it a little better now, so thanks everyone for your help.
2020-04-28T18:06:42Z phoe: MerlinTheWizard: that's the whole point - a reference to this place is carried around by these lambdas
2020-04-28T18:06:49Z fourier: while specifying the full path to 32bit variant of librt.so works..
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2020-04-28T18:14:26Z fourier: apparently some magic with how cffi searches for libraries
2020-04-28T18:15:47Z _death: phoe: cool @ https://i.redd.it/0wgtrq978fv41.jpg .. methinks heisig could put it in the sealable-metaobject repo :d
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2020-04-28T18:17:09Z phoe: _death: I don't think JPEGs are supposed to be stuffed in git repos, but oh well
2020-04-28T18:17:38Z _death: it's ok if they're small enough and you don't modify them
2020-04-28T18:17:56Z phoe: could be good then
2020-04-28T18:19:08Z beach: MerlinTheWizard: Not everything in Common Lisp is an object.  A comment is not an object for instance.  Neither is a place.
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2020-04-28T18:22:03Z boeg: does anyone know if let over lambda is available somewhere as epub?
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2020-04-28T18:23:19Z phoe: boeg: not in official distribution AFAIK
2020-04-28T18:23:45Z boeg: phoe: yeah, thats what i'm seeing too, too bad
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2020-04-28T18:34:49Z Cymew: That metaobject jpg is really neat. :)
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2020-04-28T18:47:38Z gendl: Hi, i just installed mysql on my mac with brew, set the root password, and quickloaded clsql in CCL.  Can anyone give a quick pointer about how to connect to mysql from CL?  And is clsql even what I should be using at this juncture?
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2020-04-28T18:48:43Z gendl: The manual seems to be missing from here:  http://clsql.kpe.io/documentation.html  and although Kevin Rosenberg has done some great stuff it seems he's not active these days...
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2020-04-28T18:51:55Z phoe: gendl: http://clsql.kpe.io/manual/ ?
2020-04-28T18:52:31Z phoe: the doc is in poor shape though
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2020-04-28T18:53:34Z gendl: i just got a connection working with cl-mysql
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2020-04-28T18:57:45Z didi: Does LOOP's `across' respect an array fill-pointer?
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2020-04-28T18:58:46Z phoe: clhs 6.1.2.1.5
2020-04-28T18:58:46Z specbot: The for-as-across subclause: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abae.htm
2020-04-28T18:59:11Z phoe: I guess that it does because it makes no sense otherwise, but the LOOP reference is not clear about it...
2020-04-28T18:59:22Z didi: phoe: Thanks.
2020-04-28T18:59:41Z phoe: I mean, it makes no sense to iterate over vector elements that are not active
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2020-04-28T19:00:32Z didi: Can I change the fill-pointer during iteration?
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2020-04-28T19:00:48Z phoe: didi: AFAIK you very much shouldn't
2020-04-28T19:00:56Z phoe: but then again, it's gut feeling
2020-04-28T19:01:05Z didi: phoe: I see. Thanks again.
2020-04-28T19:01:06Z phoe: let me dig into the spec...
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2020-04-28T19:01:52Z phoe: I can't see anything in the spec
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2020-04-28T19:03:45Z phoe: didi: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/-/blob/master/iteration/loop5.lsp#L146-150
2020-04-28T19:04:59Z didi: phoe: Cool.
2020-04-28T19:06:04Z didi: At least in practice, I can't change the fill-pointer. SBCL reads the array length only once.
2020-04-28T19:06:22Z phoe: and I guess that's expected
2020-04-28T19:06:36Z Bike: oh, if you're trying to _alter_ the fill pointer in the middle of a traversal, that's definitely not allowed.
2020-04-28T19:06:39Z Bike: clhs 3.6
2020-04-28T19:06:39Z specbot: Traversal Rules and Side Effects: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_f.htm
2020-04-28T19:06:45Z didi: Bike: I am.
2020-04-28T19:06:49Z didi: Oh well.
2020-04-28T19:07:00Z phoe: Bike: thanks
2020-04-28T19:07:02Z didi: oic
2020-04-28T19:08:03Z heisig: _death: https://github.com/marcoheisig/sealable-metaobjects#sealable-metaobjects :D
2020-04-28T19:08:21Z phoe: le gasp
2020-04-28T19:08:47Z phoe: nice, no repo pollution
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2020-04-28T19:09:06Z heisig: Yes, otherwise I wouldn't have added it.
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2020-04-28T19:11:50Z _death: awesome
2020-04-28T19:13:44Z alandipert: heisig that's so great!
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2020-04-28T19:48:34Z _death: jackdaniel: I decided to put my ecl+imgui project on github: https://github.com/death/imcl
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2020-04-28T20:12:03Z fourier: _death: thats cool, I was thinking about connecting imgui to CL in some way but looks like you did it!
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2020-04-28T20:13:00Z fourier: have you done all the bindings yourself?
2020-04-28T20:14:15Z _death: yeah
2020-04-28T20:15:13Z fourier: fantastic work. will check it out eventually, starred
2020-04-28T20:15:20Z p_l has set mode -q $~a
2020-04-28T20:16:06Z fourier: is it tightly bound to ECL or you can use to access it from another implementation eventually
2020-04-28T20:16:08Z fourier: ?
2020-04-28T20:16:25Z _death: it is tightly bound to ecl
2020-04-28T20:16:28Z p_l has set mode -q *2?!*@*
2020-04-28T20:16:33Z p_l has set mode -q *18!*@*
2020-04-28T20:16:36Z p_l has set mode -q *19!*@*
2020-04-28T20:16:40Z fourier: nice anyway
2020-04-28T20:16:42Z _death: you can check bindings.cpp..
2020-04-28T20:16:56Z p_l has set mode -q *!*@109.201.154.199
2020-04-28T20:17:08Z fourier: yea im looking through them
2020-04-28T20:17:26Z _death: it's a total mess, like jackdaniel remarked in his talk, it's easy to make a difference
2020-04-28T20:18:26Z fourier: dont say mess, say "proof of concept" :)
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2020-04-28T20:20:18Z _death: a work of art.. between dadaism and surrealism
2020-04-28T20:21:14Z _death: there are some vids of me playing with it in https://adeht.org/dump/vids.html
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2020-04-28T20:26:10Z fourier: which version of ECL its targeting ? can't compile with 16.1.2
2020-04-28T20:26:29Z _death: the latest.. https://github.com/death/imcl/commit/33fe59cbc4a3cb52b2ffc34bc92fd6e2a909387f
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2020-04-28T20:26:57Z fourier: ah I see
2020-04-28T20:30:05Z _death: I suppose there could be an ifdef there.. but, good intentions and roads to hell
2020-04-28T20:32:01Z fourier: will try to compile latest ecl then before
2020-04-28T20:33:44Z jackdaniel: _death: thanks for sharing! I'll gladly play with it :)
2020-04-28T20:34:29Z jackdaniel: (and thank you for remembering my request for pinging me when you do that)
2020-04-28T20:35:38Z _death: thank you for keeping ECL alive :)
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2020-04-28T21:08:15Z theseb: Do people typically define their macros in a SEPARATE file or do they mix it with rest of their programs?
2020-04-28T21:08:37Z theseb: i'm guessing probably with something as elaborate as a DSL you want to squirrel it away in a separate file at least?
2020-04-28T21:08:57Z phoe: theseb: not all macros are worthy being called DSLs
2020-04-28T21:09:43Z phoe: e.g. if you have a WITH-FOO macro that expands into a CALL-WITH-FOO function or into a LET binding that binds some *FOO* variable, it's often not worth to define these in a separate file
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2020-04-28T21:16:57Z prefixt: Hello! Is there an expedient means to generate a kind list of function calls for a program to be loaded in SBCL?
2020-04-28T21:17:24Z phoe: prefixt: I enjoyed reading that sentence but did not understand it
2020-04-28T21:17:39Z phoe: what program to be loaded? do you mean some Quicklisp system, or do you mean something else?
2020-04-28T21:19:26Z fourier: theseb: I even define them inside a function if I'm too lazy with macrolet
2020-04-28T21:19:51Z fourier: its a matter of taste, I guess
2020-04-28T21:20:12Z theseb: ok
2020-04-28T21:21:31Z prefixt: phoe, thank you! I have some lisp programs/scripts. I can read the source fine. I don't know exactly what SBCL is doing with the program internally, but if my program works, I can assume the the functions in my program/script have been executed at some point. I'd assume SBCL contain some of this information, like what functions were executed.
2020-04-28T21:21:58Z phoe: prefixt: this sounds like you want to use the TRACE facility
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2020-04-28T21:22:23Z prefixt searches TRACE
2020-04-28T21:22:31Z phoe: before your program gets executed, you might want to TRACE some functions inside it; you should then get a printout of which functions were called with which arguments and then returned which values
2020-04-28T21:22:35Z phoe: clhs trace
2020-04-28T21:22:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm
2020-04-28T21:23:07Z phoe: like, if you have (defun foo ...) and (defun bar ...) in your program, then, before executing (foo) or (bar) you might first want to (trace foo bar)
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2020-04-28T21:24:37Z prefixt: thank you phoe, that's extremely helpful and mostly what I was looking for. Let me look into this :-)
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2020-04-28T21:25:24Z phoe: <3
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2020-04-28T21:36:07Z theseb: apparently in addition to the evaluator some people call the thing that expands macros and converts 'a to (quote a) the ''expander" ?
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2020-04-28T21:36:33Z theseb: so reader -> expander -> evaluator -> printer yes?
2020-04-28T21:36:53Z theseb: REPL should be REEPL perhaps
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2020-04-28T21:44:14Z Bike: 'a as (quote a) is just the reader
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2020-04-28T21:55:24Z theseb: Bike: what about the thing that expands macros?
2020-04-28T21:55:27Z theseb: reader too?
2020-04-28T21:55:49Z theseb: Bike: i guess we can fold the expansion function into the reader..all of it
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2020-04-28T21:56:03Z Bike: uh, no.
2020-04-28T21:56:12Z LdBeth: Macro expansion is eval part
2020-04-28T21:56:28Z Bike: the reader converts text into s-expressions. macroexpansion converts s-expressions into other s-expressions.
2020-04-28T21:57:03Z theseb: ok
2020-04-28T21:57:07Z theseb: thanks
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2020-04-28T22:05:52Z pjb: theseb: it could be E^n, since in your macro, you could also call (defmacro moo () (funcall (compile nil  (eval (macroexpand (read-from-string #|or elsehwhere|# "(foo (bar (baz)))"))))))
2020-04-28T22:05:56Z pjb: and so on.
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2020-04-28T22:24:43Z didi: How do I freeze the value of a dynamic value inside a lambda? For example, (defvar *foo* 42) (defun make-foo () (lambda () (freeze-now *foo*))) (let ((*foo* 7)) (funcall (make-foo))) => 42 # and not => 7
2020-04-28T22:25:56Z no-defun-allowed: You can't, that's why it's dynamic.
2020-04-28T22:26:09Z didi: no-defun-allowed: I see.
2020-04-28T22:26:38Z Bike: when is freeze-now supposed to do the freezing, exactly?
2020-04-28T22:26:53Z Bike: in your example, *foo* is bound to 7 even when the closure is created.
2020-04-28T22:26:58Z no-defun-allowed: You could bind the value to a lexical variable outside the LAMBDA and re-bind it to the dynamic variable inside the LAMBDA, though.
2020-04-28T22:27:02Z didi: Bike: During the creation of the lambda.
2020-04-28T22:27:23Z Bike: but then your example should still return 7, because the (make-foo) call is within the (let ((*foo* 7)) ...)
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2020-04-28T22:27:50Z didi: Bike: Right, but I want 42. I want the lambda to be independent of the value of *foo*.
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2020-04-28T22:27:56Z didi: no-defun-allowed: Interesting.
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2020-04-28T22:28:05Z LdBeth: Well free-now is possible by doing local renaming
2020-04-28T22:28:08Z Bike: How could it possibly be 42?
2020-04-28T22:28:13Z LdBeth: Like rename foo to a gensym
2020-04-28T22:28:18Z Bike: You call make-foo and *foo* is 42 even then.
2020-04-28T22:28:23Z Bike: er, is 7.
2020-04-28T22:28:30Z didi: LdBeth: Thanks.
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2020-04-28T22:28:50Z didi: Bike: I know it doesn't work. I want a way to make it work.
2020-04-28T22:28:57Z Bike: You could do (defun make-foo () (let ((foo *foo*)) (lambda () foo))) as no-defun-allowed alluded to, but your example would still return 7.
2020-04-28T22:29:09Z Bike: Because when make-foo is called, *foo* is 7, not 42. am i not being clear?
2020-04-28T22:29:15Z didi: Bike: You are.
2020-04-28T22:29:17Z Bike: even when the function is created, it's 7.
2020-04-28T22:29:46Z _death: likely he meant (let ((foo (make-foo)) (*foo* 7)) (funcall foo))
2020-04-28T22:30:06Z LdBeth is confused
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2020-04-28T22:30:31Z didi: No no. I want to (make-foo) to always return the original value of *foo*. No time dependence.
2020-04-28T22:30:46Z Bike: What if you (setf *foo* 3) somewhere?
2020-04-28T22:30:57Z Bike: Why not just do (defun make-foo () (lambda () 42))?
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2020-04-28T22:31:45Z didi: Oh, well. I will think of something. Thank you.
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2020-04-28T22:34:05Z Bike: i mean, really, if you want a value that never changes, do (defconstant +foo+ 42) (defvar *foo* +foo+), and then use +foo+ for the unchanging one.
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2020-04-28T22:35:13Z didi: Bike: I transverse a tree making lambdas. Some of these lambdas depend on a dynamic variable.
2020-04-28T22:35:47Z didi: I'm using `cond' to produce different lambdas, but it's not pretty.
2020-04-28T22:36:25Z Bike: you said you wanted the "original value". So even if you bind or set *foo*, the lambdas return the same value and ignore those bindings and sets. Or is that wrong?
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2020-04-28T22:38:16Z didi: Instead of doing (if *foo* (lambda () 42) (lambda () 7)), I wanted to do (let ((*foo* 42)) (list (lambda () *foo*) (let ((*foo* 7)) (lambda () *foo*)))).
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2020-04-28T22:38:43Z Bike: and those functions return different things?
2020-04-28T22:38:46Z didi: Yes.
2020-04-28T22:38:53Z Bike: that would make it sensitive to bindings. it's not returning the original value.
2020-04-28T22:39:08Z didi: The binding at the time of `lambda' creation.
2020-04-28T22:39:42Z Bike: that's what (defun make-foo () (let ((foo *foo*)) (lambda () foo))) gets you, but that's not how it works with your earlier example.
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2020-04-28T22:39:56Z Bike: (let ((*foo* 7)) (funcall (make-foo))) => 7.
2020-04-28T22:39:58Z didi: Bike: Thank you.
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2020-04-29T02:58:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-29T03:02:53Z jruiz: gm
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2020-04-29T03:05:08Z beach: jruiz: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2020-04-29T03:05:45Z jruiz: beach: Yes, just joined
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2020-04-29T03:05:58Z beach: Great!  What brings you to #lisp?
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2020-04-29T03:09:53Z jruiz: I've had some downtime lately and have started hacking common lisp again
2020-04-29T03:10:36Z beach: Good choice!
2020-04-29T03:13:01Z jruiz: Yes. Endless fun
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2020-04-29T03:19:34Z Oladon: Indeed, welcome!
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2020-04-29T03:21:10Z jruiz: Oladon: thank you
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2020-04-29T06:32:05Z phoe: good morning
2020-04-29T06:32:17Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning phoe
2020-04-29T06:32:37Z beach: Hello phoe.
2020-04-29T06:33:21Z phoe: heyy
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2020-04-29T06:56:42Z doomlist3: hi
2020-04-29T06:57:01Z doomlist3: format is fine, but there is ~% instead of easy to type \n for newline?
2020-04-29T06:57:17Z doomlist3: infact does \n exit and \t for CL
2020-04-29T06:57:37Z phoe: doomlist3: if you want to do it outside FORMAT, then use
2020-04-29T06:57:39Z phoe: clhs terpri
2020-04-29T06:57:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_terpri.htm
2020-04-29T06:57:46Z phoe: clhs fresh-line
2020-04-29T06:57:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_terpri.htm
2020-04-29T06:58:00Z doomlist3: terpri is just \n but not \t?
2020-04-29T06:58:17Z phoe: terpri is ~%; fresh-line is a conditional ~%
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2020-04-29T06:59:16Z phoe: I don't know about tab characters, other than (princ #\Tab) perhaps
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2020-04-29T07:08:37Z flip214: hmmm, too late. CL-INTERPOL has \n, \t, and so on.
2020-04-29T07:09:07Z phoe: I kinda wish newcomers stayed for more than just "hi, question, thanks, bye" - but I cannot really force it
2020-04-29T07:09:08Z flip214: minion: memo for doomlist3: CL-INTERPOL has \n, \t, and so on. http://edicl.github.io/cl-interpol/#backslash
2020-04-29T07:09:09Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell doomlist3 when he/she/it next speaks.
2020-04-29T07:09:24Z phoe: flip214: that's a good solution, too
2020-04-29T07:09:25Z flip214: phoe: just keep on talking
2020-04-29T07:09:43Z beach: flip214: I think this newcomer would want an update of the standard.
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2020-04-29T07:10:43Z phoe: beach: honestly, so would I
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2020-04-29T07:11:09Z phoe: that's not going to happen without significant work though, so it needs to stay in the domain of dreams for now
2020-04-29T07:11:14Z beach: For \n?
2020-04-29T07:11:22Z beach: You must be joking.
2020-04-29T07:11:42Z phoe: oh! not for \n, in general
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2020-04-29T07:13:09Z Shinmera: Whenever I learn new things I always wonder: man why isn't everything just the way I already knew??
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2020-04-29T07:18:04Z aeth: \n is pretty useful though
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2020-04-29T07:18:57Z aeth: Note that they're distinct, though. "Foo~%" is in a format string and is processed. "Foo\n" is part of the syntax of a string, and can be used anywhere without having to do something like #.(format nil "Foo~%")
2020-04-29T07:19:16Z boeg: What is a very good source to learn CLOS?
2020-04-29T07:19:25Z phoe: boeg: Sonja Keene's book
2020-04-29T07:19:37Z boeg: and is it pronounced C-LOS or KLOS?
2020-04-29T07:19:46Z beach: As you wish.
2020-04-29T07:20:13Z boeg: beach: well alright
2020-04-29T07:20:14Z boeg: :P
2020-04-29T07:20:25Z boeg: phoe: what was the title?
2020-04-29T07:20:42Z LdBeth: Komoon lisp
2020-04-29T07:20:46Z phoe: Object-Oriented Programming in COMMON LISP: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS
2020-04-29T07:20:53Z LdBeth: so klos
2020-04-29T07:20:54Z boeg: phoe: thank you
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2020-04-29T07:21:22Z beach: LdBeth: Both pronunciations exist.
2020-04-29T07:21:25Z flip214: Come-On Lisp, by C.O.Moon
2020-04-29T07:21:28Z boeg: LdBeth: alright, thats how i've been saying it, but i listened to a podcast where they said "c-los" and i thought it was weird but maybe correct :P
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2020-04-29T07:22:15Z beach: I say C-loss myself.  But I say Klimm (for CLIM) and some people say Kloss and C-limm.
2020-04-29T07:22:33Z rawr is now known as grumble
2020-04-29T07:23:05Z aeth: phoe: I'm not sure why you think that a new standard is hard, though. You don't need a new official Standard. Scheme has 1 official standard and like 7 unofficial ones, and the unofficial ones are the authoritative ones.
2020-04-29T07:23:19Z aeth: Although, seeing how long R7RS-large is taking to complete, it might take a decade...
2020-04-29T07:23:21Z boeg: beach: indeed, i'm all for letting people pronounce things as they wish, however I just wanted to get an idea about if there *are* infact people like me that says "klos" instead of "c-los". I dont mind people saying either, though :P
2020-04-29T07:23:21Z phoe: aeth: adoption.
2020-04-29T07:24:02Z beach: aeth: A standard is hard because it requires some smart, knowledgeable, and dedicated people with lots of time on their hands.
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2020-04-29T07:24:22Z White_Flame: or just 1 person to do a lot of work
2020-04-29T07:24:29Z aeth: Or lots of time (see: R7RS-large)
2020-04-29T07:24:37Z no-defun-allowed: In a more perfect world with a less inconsistent English, CLOSOS being pronounced as "colossus" would suggest CLOS is pronounced /kə-ˈläs/
2020-04-29T07:24:39Z aeth: I mean, a little bit of time over a long period of time
2020-04-29T07:24:43Z aeth: rather than a lot of time in a short period
2020-04-29T07:25:28Z beach: aeth: I don't think you can compare it to Scheme.  Performance has traditionally not been a big deal for Scheme.  It is a HUGE deal for Common Lisp.  And if you get it wrong, you will ruin many possible compiler designs.
2020-04-29T07:25:31Z White_Flame: plus, the fad of ANSI/ISO languages is over
2020-04-29T07:25:36Z aeth: phoe: your point is pretty valid, though, because you need implementors on board or else you just reinvented CDRs, which never took off like SRFIs did
2020-04-29T07:26:26Z phoe: aeth: yes, if CDRs never really took off then how can CLtL4 take off
2020-04-29T07:26:36Z beach: SRFIs are much easier, because they started with such an impoverished language that it was easy to come up with additions.
2020-04-29T07:26:47Z boeg: phoe: oh, said state of affairs regarding Sonya Keenes book. Yet another thats only available in a terrible format digitally. It's too bad
2020-04-29T07:26:48Z phoe: ;; I am purposefully skipping CLtL3 because it already started and went nowhere
2020-04-29T07:27:04Z White_Flame: yeah, and any opinions on how to basically mutate CL instead of purely extend it is going to be problematic
2020-04-29T07:27:12Z White_Flame: and even extension runs into a large cartesian of integration issues
2020-04-29T07:27:17Z phoe: boeg: yes, it's an old book. I sometimes wish it was reworked and published anew, also using modern libraries for e.g. multiprocessing.
2020-04-29T07:27:18Z aeth: The base CL language is missing many things. It's pretty easy to find them. Look at portability libraries, like e.g. http://portability.cl/
2020-04-29T07:27:24Z beach: Even extensions can be very tricky.
2020-04-29T07:27:44Z boeg: phoe: would you still say it is the best source to your knowledge?
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2020-04-29T07:28:01Z aeth: White_Flame: "foo\n" is actually probably one of the hardest things to add because it requires modifying the reader. Most things would be pretty easily extensible through the existing package system.
2020-04-29T07:28:17Z beach: boeg: I learned object-oriented programming with CLOS from reading and implementing the CLIM specification.
2020-04-29T07:28:33Z White_Flame: yeah, I stopped using the reader for my stuff, and have my own lexer/parser.  The fact that you can't have multi-character punctuators is really annoying to me, and that there's no unread-char past a 1 char buffer
2020-04-29T07:28:34Z phoe: boeg: yes, the knowledge there aged pretty well - compared to the way it is physically presented, sadly.
2020-04-29T07:28:37Z boeg: beach: i guess thats another way to go about it :)
2020-04-29T07:28:42Z White_Flame: I run the lexer/parser right on the lisp input stream
2020-04-29T07:28:44Z beach: boeg: That's how I really understood CLOS.  Keene's book was not good for me.
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2020-04-29T07:29:32Z boeg: beach, phoe: right, so either I should get a physical copy of the Keene book, or implement the CLIM specification :)
2020-04-29T07:29:55Z boeg: or stumble upon a third route to enlightenment regarding CLOS
2020-04-29T07:30:35Z beach: You just have to read it.
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2020-04-29T07:31:16Z boeg: beach: yes, it wasn't meant in a sarcastic tone, no offense meant
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2020-04-29T07:32:01Z beach: Sure, I understand.
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2020-04-29T07:33:35Z momozor: hi
2020-04-29T07:33:44Z beach: Hello momozor.
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2020-04-29T07:36:59Z aeth: phoe: there won't be a new standard until the major implementors want it... but if that's the main reason why people don't want one, then it enters the zeitgeist and discourages implementors from wanting one, thus becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.
2020-04-29T07:37:29Z aeth: that being said, "foo\n" would probably be voted down because CL 2.0 (or 4.0?) would then have a separate reader
2020-04-29T07:38:02Z flip214: aeth: perhaps the readtable might be changed by a (in-package) line
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2020-04-29T07:38:09Z momozor: So uh..I want to ask on how do you guys document your function and variable types? Is it by letting declare, check-type, and declaim to do the job for you or document them inside a function docstring, parameter, etc?
2020-04-29T07:38:30Z aeth: beach: Performance, yes, that's a major issue. It makes certain things very controversial in language design, like dependent types
2020-04-29T07:38:32Z momozor: I'm doing it this way - https://momozor.github.io/quaremain/index.html
2020-04-29T07:38:45Z momozor: but I'm not sure if this is the best practice
2020-04-29T07:38:48Z beach: aeth: But unless the committee consists of smart, knowledgeable people with lots of time on their hands, there are going to be tons of suggestions like that, which would then have to be voted on.  And some of them would then likely pass.
2020-04-29T07:38:57Z momozor this makes me look obsessive with types
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2020-04-29T07:39:18Z momozor: *obsessed
2020-04-29T07:39:30Z phoe: momozor: not necessarily, docstrings like that are informative and I've seen them used around the Lisp world.
2020-04-29T07:39:48Z beach: momozor: Often, mentioning precise types can become a maintenance burden.
2020-04-29T07:39:50Z flip214: momozor: your [SRC] links use file:///
2020-04-29T07:39:54Z phoe: momozor: I usually use CHECK-TYPE for verifying function arguments.
2020-04-29T07:40:07Z momozor: https://momozor.github.io/quaremain/index.html
2020-04-29T07:40:09Z momozor: oops
2020-04-29T07:40:19Z momozor: wait oh
2020-04-29T07:40:25Z no-defun-allowed: It's more common to use a documentation string for documentation than declared types in Lisp.
2020-04-29T07:40:29Z flip214: and there's a lone "ody>" at the end
2020-04-29T07:40:36Z aeth: CHECK-TYPE is safer, DECLARE is potentially faster/smoother. The issue is that implementations can (and SBCL with (safety 0) does) assume type declarations are valid rather than checking.
2020-04-29T07:41:03Z flip214: momozor: I suggest describing what it does in a docstring, and then to use check-type or an explicit function declaration for the types.
2020-04-29T07:41:09Z aeth: On the other hand, with a CHECK-TYPE instead of a DECLARE in SBCL, you have the situation where SBCL correctly type infers that any input is valid, up until the point of the CHECK-TYPE
2020-04-29T07:41:26Z aeth: so the parameters are correctly inferred to be T
2020-04-29T07:41:52Z aeth: So you can't really programmatically get that type information if it's in a CHECK-TYPE
2020-04-29T07:44:07Z phoe: aeth: even if CHECK-TYPE is at the toplevel of the function body? lemme check
2020-04-29T07:44:40Z phoe: huh!... correct
2020-04-29T07:44:50Z aeth: phoe: and beyond that, you can't access the inferred type... Although SLIME somehow does it for SBCL, so maybe I shouldn't say it's impossible.
2020-04-29T07:45:17Z boeg: also is there like a resource that takes you through actually implementing your own lisp so to get the enlightenment that i'm sure such an endeavor will reveal?
2020-04-29T07:45:25Z aeth: but for accessing types from DECLARE you have https://github.com/Bike/introspect-environment
2020-04-29T07:46:03Z beach: boeg: You may try "Lisp in Small Pieces".
2020-04-29T07:46:09Z jdz: boeg: You might start with an existing implementation.  I've heard ECL is very approachable.
2020-04-29T07:46:52Z beach: boeg: But, depending on your objectives, even such a great book is only going to tell you about a very small part of what you need to know.
2020-04-29T07:46:54Z boeg: beach, jdz: thanks!
2020-04-29T07:47:04Z aeth: phoe: What I'm probably going to do with my DEFINE-FUNCTION macro is make the default behavior different on different implementations, i.e. only defaulting to using DECLARE on implementations where it is safe/good to do so. But with SBCL, that still leaves the (safety 0) problem.
2020-04-29T07:47:17Z no-defun-allowed: What Lisp?
2020-04-29T07:47:30Z aeth: And it's not hard (but it is a bit verbose) to manually set DEFINE-FUNCTION to CHECK-TYPE or DECLARE...
2020-04-29T07:47:46Z boeg: beach: I can imagine - but I guess you cannot answer the questions you yet haven't discovered. Maybe reading LiSP is a good starting place
2020-04-29T07:47:48Z no-defun-allowed: And I believe it's only yours if you pick the implementation techniques and semantics yourself, honestly. That's where the fun is.
2020-04-29T07:48:33Z beach: boeg: It is a great book, and the English translation is better than the original, thanks to the brilliant translator.
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2020-04-29T07:48:45Z boeg: beach: good to know!
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2020-04-29T07:49:08Z boeg: there is also LISP System Implementation. Maybe that's a good second read
2020-04-29T07:49:24Z phoe: boeg: who's the author?
2020-04-29T07:49:33Z boeg: http://www.t3x.org/lsi/index.html
2020-04-29T07:49:39Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-04-29T07:49:43Z boeg: Nils M Holm
2020-04-29T07:49:43Z beach: boeg: I absolutely can't recommend that book.
2020-04-29T07:49:46Z boeg: oh
2020-04-29T07:49:55Z boeg: how come?
2020-04-29T07:50:00Z no-defun-allowed: I think beach would have thought about "the questions [he] yet haven't discovered", having only written a great deal of the SICL Common Lisp implementation...
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2020-04-29T07:50:30Z beach: boeg: It is basically a commented listing of a C implementation of a particular Lisp system that is implemented in ways that no other implementation follows, and for good reasons.
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2020-04-29T07:50:57Z aeth: beach: That's the first time I'm hearing about criticism of the book!
2020-04-29T07:50:58Z boeg: no-defun-allowed: not to be snarky, but i don't think even beach can ask a question he hasn't yet discovered :)
2020-04-29T07:51:19Z beach: aeth: Have you read it?
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2020-04-29T07:51:56Z aeth: beach: Unfortunately, no. It's expensive and rare.
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2020-04-29T07:52:03Z beach: Oh?
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2020-04-29T07:52:21Z beach: I don't think I paid that much for it.
2020-04-29T07:52:27Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: Are you thinking of Lisp in Small Pieces right now?
2020-04-29T07:53:46Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: oh, I see, I guess beach was talking about the other one there
2020-04-29T07:53:55Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah.
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2020-04-29T07:54:19Z phoe: it was Sonja's CLOS book, and then the t3x book
2020-04-29T07:54:34Z beach: aeth: Like I said, LiSP is great, and the translation is fantastic, due to an excellent translator.
2020-04-29T07:54:58Z aeth: ah, okay, sorry, I got confused
2020-04-29T07:55:02Z aeth: I haven't heard of the other book
2020-04-29T07:55:12Z no-defun-allowed: The source code is available at http://www.t3x.org/lisp9/lisp9-20200220.tgz, and I guess I might be able to glean some things from the 5.6 thousand line C file that the interpreter resides in.
2020-04-29T07:55:14Z aeth: What does it do unusually?
2020-04-29T07:55:36Z beach: Memory management is one thing.
2020-04-29T07:55:43Z beach: Object representation.
2020-04-29T07:55:55Z LdBeth: no-defun-allowed: it’s actually a native code compiler
2020-04-29T07:56:16Z no-defun-allowed: It has one vector of CARs and one of CDRs, which I guess make caches happy.
2020-04-29T07:56:32Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: Really? The "blurb" says "LISP9 compiles to abstract machine code".
2020-04-29T07:56:53Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: oh, wow, that's interesting
2020-04-29T07:57:02Z jdz: no-defun-allowed: how is two separate vectors for cars and cdrs cache-friendly?
2020-04-29T07:57:39Z no-defun-allowed: jdz: Sorry, I missed a (with-sarcasm ...) there.
2020-04-29T07:57:42Z LdBeth: Well, means you have to figure out abstract machine to native part (
2020-04-29T07:58:03Z aeth: how is that cache-unfriendly?
2020-04-29T07:58:26Z aeth: A modern CPU is probably used to reading several vectors in parallel...
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2020-04-29T07:59:39Z no-defun-allowed: I guess so. I was thinking that having the CDR next to the CAR in memory would be preferable for pre-fetching.
2020-04-29T07:59:44Z jdz: aeth: I'd expect processing two vectors (sequentially) to have twice the load on cache than one such vector.
2020-04-29T08:01:39Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: Maybe you're right, in the table of contents I see a "24.3 Compiling to Machine Code" in Part 3 of the book.
2020-04-29T08:01:41Z aeth: jdz: You could probably benchmark that with specialized arrays (e.g. :element-type single-float) where one function loops over one and one function loops over two, but half the size.
2020-04-29T08:01:55Z beach: The title of the book is highly misleading and suggests that there will be discussions about pros and cons of different ways of doing things like memory management, object representation, bootstrapping, evaluation, etc.
2020-04-29T08:03:06Z momozor: phoe, beach, flip214, no-defun-allowed, aeth: thanks! I guess describing the function to give a high-level POV and declaring types using CHECK-TYPE might be a good idea in my case. It's true that it can be a burden to maintain the precise types declaration in the docstring manually.
2020-04-29T08:03:16Z no-defun-allowed: There is also a lot of C in the book.
2020-04-29T08:03:33Z jdz: aeth: That would be a good exercise, yes.  But I imagine these vectors being way bigger than the caches, so the size would not matter.
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2020-04-29T08:04:21Z aeth: momozor: If you generate the CHECK-TYPE or DECLARE TYPE in a macro, you could have that macro scan for docstrings and append the type information at the end.
2020-04-29T08:04:52Z aeth: The docstring (afaik) has to be a literal string, so you can just do (concatenate 'string docstring ...) at replace it in the generated DEFUN
2020-04-29T08:05:18Z jdz: Allocating conses from pools specialized on the type of CAR contents seems mildly interesting.
2020-04-29T08:05:38Z beach: aeth: Sure you can.  Use the #. reader macro.
2020-04-29T08:05:52Z aeth: jdz: I've considered doing that for a stack machine for an interpreter
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2020-04-29T08:06:34Z jdz: Or even specialized on both CAR × CDR being pointer into the next cell (kind of CDR-coding).
2020-04-29T08:06:43Z beach: jdz: And what happens when you do a RPLACA?
2020-04-29T08:06:57Z no-defun-allowed: Iterating over one vector seems to be no faster or slower than two vectors of half the size in parallel.
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2020-04-29T08:07:43Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: well, beware of cache performance ... lots of non-linearities there
2020-04-29T08:08:16Z jdz: beach: Maybe cooperate with GC and evacuate the cell.  I said "mildly" interesting; sure smart people have thought about this and found the idea not worth the trouble.
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2020-04-29T08:08:49Z jdz: no-defun-allowed: I'm concerned about the "two vectors of half the size" part.
2020-04-29T08:08:49Z beach: jdz: Very likely, and that's what I would expect to see discussed in the book.
2020-04-29T08:08:50Z aeth: it sounds like one of those interesting things you might want to try in a language with immutable conses, which unfortunately, CL doesn't and never will have
2020-04-29T08:09:27Z beach: aeth: See, that's a typical suggestion that might come up in a standards committee!
2020-04-29T08:10:03Z beach: aeth: Now, figure out how to implement that efficiently without sacrificing performance in existing implementations.
2020-04-29T08:10:07Z aeth: beach: Immutable versions of every data structure would be very useful for compilers that want to optimize without forcing optimizations... which seems very CL to do.
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2020-04-29T08:11:11Z beach: aeth: Lots of stuff is useful.  But you have to provide an efficient implementation technique that won't have any negative impact on existing techniques for mutable conses.
2020-04-29T08:11:25Z aeth: Immutable conses/vectors/strings wouldn't hurt anything, unless you reinterpret literal conses/vectors/strings to be the immutable versions, which would arguably help catch bugs, at the expensive of making everything a little bit more generic.
2020-04-29T08:11:29Z beach: aeth: And that is PRECISELY the problem with a new standard.
2020-04-29T08:11:30Z LdBeth: Why immutable then?
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2020-04-29T08:11:50Z momozor: aeth: that's a great idea! I will look into implementing such macro.
2020-04-29T08:12:19Z beach: aeth: OK, so suppose you pass sometimes and immutable CONS cell sometimes an immutable one, to arbitrary functions.
2020-04-29T08:12:41Z beach: And suppose somewhere down the line, some function does a RPLACA.
2020-04-29T08:12:55Z beach: aeth: How do you check that this function has the right to do that.
2020-04-29T08:13:07Z aeth: momozor: be careful, though, because detecting docstrings is harder than it looks. e.g. (defun foo () "foo") doesn't (afaik) have a docstring, it returns a string. And the other complication is that afaik docstrings and DECLARE are interchangable, e.g. (defun foo () (declare ...) "foo" 42) and (defun foo () "foo" (declare ...) 42)
2020-04-29T08:13:12Z aeth: momozor: probably a few more, too
2020-04-29T08:13:14Z beach: aeth: Without sacrificing the existing performance with only mutable CONS cells.
2020-04-29T08:13:14Z flip214: well, if data could be annotated (cough types cough) as being immutable that's something the compiler could already check for.... atleast a SSC in some cases ;)
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2020-04-29T08:13:44Z phoe: you'd need another tag bit for that, most likely
2020-04-29T08:13:51Z flip214: beach: there'll be a segfault that'll be caught, of course ;)
2020-04-29T08:13:51Z beach: So another test?
2020-04-29T08:13:53Z LdBeth: I don’t think a immutable arrary would in anyway more performant then a mutable one
2020-04-29T08:14:19Z beach: aeth: And that is precisely what I mean by the people making decisions would have to be knowledgeable people who know how to evaluate stuff like that.
2020-04-29T08:14:23Z flip214: LdBeth: having immutable data means quite a few more optimizations for the compiler...
2020-04-29T08:14:35Z flip214: that's why fortran libraries are still in use
2020-04-29T08:15:02Z beach: flip214: You can't compare a static programming language to a dynamic one that way.
2020-04-29T08:15:19Z aeth: beach: Immutable conses would have to be their own sequence subtype, yes. As I said, you might want to reinterpret literal conses like '(1 2 3) to be immutable, but now you either break or slow down code that does (car l) where l is ultimately '(1 2 3)
2020-04-29T08:15:24Z momozor: aeth: ah I see..
2020-04-29T08:16:06Z aeth: (It breaks if CAR only applies to mutable conses, and it's slowed down if CAR can apply to either cons type)
2020-04-29T08:16:14Z beach: aeth: So you are saying that YOU are willing to accept a performance penalty for this new feature?
2020-04-29T08:16:36Z LdBeth: flip214: if that just means data can copied
2020-04-29T08:16:50Z beach: aeth: Again, that is EXACTLY the problem with an updated standard.
2020-04-29T08:16:54Z White_Flame: LdBeth:  immutable means you avoid copies
2020-04-29T08:17:30Z White_Flame: and rather share old versions of stuff taht didn't "change"
2020-04-29T08:17:33Z aeth: beach: Well, no, if you resist the temptation to redefine literals to be immutables (which is very tempting) then it would only potentially slow down already generic stuff, sequence-generic stuff.
2020-04-29T08:17:44Z beach: aeth: New features would have to be carefully considered in terms of possible implementation techniques.  And that requires detailed knowledge about memory management, compiler techniques, computer architecture, etc.
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2020-04-29T08:18:48Z LdBeth: White_Flame: maybe could reduce gc overhead, but in principle still the same as the mutable version. And there’s generational gc
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2020-04-29T08:19:18Z White_Flame: GCs are FAR easier to write for immutable systems as well
2020-04-29T08:19:28Z White_Flame: since you never have to worry about the references changing during scan
2020-04-29T08:19:29Z beach: In other words, whenever I see a "this would be good to have in an updated standard" and that phrase is not accompanied by some serious research into how it would possibly break existing things and/or slow things down, I must ignore it.
2020-04-29T08:20:00Z beach: White_Flame: Provided every object is immutable, sure.
2020-04-29T08:20:00Z LdBeth: Although might be helpful to provide pragmas that instructs compiler how to allocate the data
2020-04-29T08:20:26Z beach: But that would be a very radical new Common Lisp version.
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2020-04-29T08:20:40Z LdBeth: White_Flame: even in GHC not everything in the heap is immutable
2020-04-29T08:20:57Z aeth: beach: It's a feature that people use often in similar programming languages and there's probably demand for it, and if implemented as a library it will be slower than at the implementation level, so there is specifically a demand for immutable conses. I think that's sufficient at this point.
2020-04-29T08:21:13Z aeth: beach: Obviously if we actually did Common Lisp 4.0 we'd have to research it, come up with the pros and cons, debate it, write a concrete proposal, etc.
2020-04-29T08:21:22Z aeth: And that's why a wishlist is so much faster than actually doing a new standard...
2020-04-29T08:21:23Z White_Flame: LdBeth: but do they separate areas of immutable data vs not?
2020-04-29T08:22:01Z LdBeth: Simple answer is then don’t
2020-04-29T08:22:03Z White_Flame: aeth: or make your own take on it, and screw consensus.  But at least implement contentious ideas well
2020-04-29T08:22:12Z LdBeth: It involves update thunks due to lazy eval
2020-04-29T08:22:47Z White_Flame: the thing is, what is the "common" part of a new CL?
2020-04-29T08:23:04Z phoe: there's none
2020-04-29T08:23:11Z White_Flame: the most obvious things are standardization of the most common libraries, especially the trivial-* portability ones
2020-04-29T08:23:18Z aeth: Absolutely.
2020-04-29T08:23:23Z phoe: the new language doesn't have to be a compromise to unify existing dialects, hence it's not really "common" anymore
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2020-04-29T08:23:35Z aeth: And then the controversial things would be things like new sequence types... Or \n in strings.
2020-04-29T08:23:36Z White_Flame: but in terms of totally new features, not really much has congealed
2020-04-29T08:23:59Z phoe: if anything, it can do what you say - unify the various extensions to the standard that have then been covered by the various portability libraries
2020-04-29T08:24:01Z White_Flame: however
2020-04-29T08:24:01Z aeth: White_Flame: A new CL would be "common" if (most of) the major implementations agree to it.
2020-04-29T08:24:17Z White_Flame: pre-CL, there was fracturing and exploration within the Lisp space that CL brought together
2020-04-29T08:24:32Z White_Flame: that exploration with a language stops to some degree with the introduction of a standard
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2020-04-29T08:24:49Z White_Flame: really, we need things that deviate from CL, such that those that seem good ideas could be reintegrated into the standard
2020-04-29T08:24:57Z White_Flame: the fear of deviating from it stops basic language innovation
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2020-04-29T08:25:24Z White_Flame: CL was not 100% compatible with the lisps that came before it, either
2020-04-29T08:25:25Z beach: aeth: Faster, but also a very discouraging read, because often the person has not done the slightest research into the feasibility.
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2020-04-29T08:27:30Z aeth: beach: Idk, that seems a bit too negative. There are two phases: breadth then depth, and breadth is a higher priority early on because it doesn't matter how well-researched a feature is, no one's going to make a new standard just to add one thing.
2020-04-29T08:27:50Z aeth: Although I guess the "depth" approach gives it the chance of implementing it as a portability library over multiple implementations' implementations of it
2020-04-29T08:27:51Z White_Flame: I mean, lexical variables was a pretty breaking language feature, that violated the design of  purely dyamically scoped lisps.  But without that violation, the innovation wouldn't have happened
2020-04-29T08:28:22Z beach: aeth: That can't possibly be the way for a committee to work, i.e. wading through tons of uniformed proposals, and then have to write motivated rejection messages to each one.
2020-04-29T08:28:35Z beach: aeth: I for one would not participate in such a committee.
2020-04-29T08:28:35Z aeth: White_Flame: CL doesn't really need breaking changes. Ideally, you would just (:use #:cl2020) instead of (:use #:cl) although yes that does still restrict some things
2020-04-29T08:28:41Z flip214: White_Flame: but breaking backwards compatibility is awkward. look at perl5/perl6 (raku), python 2=>3, java 8 vs. 11 vs. 14 (standard libraries changed), C++, Go 1 => 2, ...
2020-04-29T08:28:54Z flip214: aeth: well, there's CL21 already, yes.
2020-04-29T08:29:03Z White_Flame: microsoft fears breaking backwards compatibility in many thigns, and they end up with a nightmare mudball
2020-04-29T08:29:31Z aeth: flip214: yes, CL21 is a terrible name for a library because names like "CL21" should be reserved for... if implementations want to make a new version of CL in 2021.
2020-04-29T08:29:32Z flip214: that's the other side of the story, right
2020-04-29T08:29:57Z White_Flame: aeth: that'd be y2.1k incompatible
2020-04-29T08:30:08Z aeth: C++ has no issue with that...
2020-04-29T08:30:09Z flip214: aeth: getting a new CL for the 21st _century_ would be good enough... then there could always be a CL22, CL2021, or whatever
2020-04-29T08:30:34Z beach: aeth: I think every proposal should be accompanied by documented research into how it can be implemented efficiently (among other things).
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2020-04-29T08:30:50Z White_Flame: beach: or by being explored in non-CL compatible separate implementations
2020-04-29T08:30:53Z aeth: beach: I agree, but we're not at the stage of proposals yet, afaik.
2020-04-29T08:30:58Z White_Flame: or breaking forks to explore concepts
2020-04-29T08:31:22Z beach: White_Flame: Sure, if it is compatible with performance requirements in that implementation.
2020-04-29T08:31:36Z aeth: Or, rather, the only completed proposals for a new standard are things that already exist as portability libraries
2020-04-29T08:31:44Z aeth: Perhaps that's really the way to go, though.
2020-04-29T08:31:48Z beach: aeth: Oh, but I see frequent proposals like that here, with no research what so ever.
2020-04-29T08:31:58Z White_Flame: aeth: yep, that's the low hanging fruit for new versions (or even just addendums)
2020-04-29T08:32:02Z White_Flame: and should be taken
2020-04-29T08:32:28Z beach: aeth: And it is discouraging, because it is basically just noise, until the research is shown as well.
2020-04-29T08:32:35Z White_Flame: especially since the real CL implementations already have implemented tons of these things in extension packages
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2020-04-29T08:33:10Z White_Flame: eg, extensible hash tables, package local nicknames, threading, networking, etc
2020-04-29T08:33:28Z beach: White_Flame: Now, that's a different story.  I am all in favor of an updated standard that basically just documents what all implementations already do.
2020-04-29T08:33:50Z White_Flame: right, hence teh trivial-* portability sims exploring what the interfaces woul dbe
2020-04-29T08:33:51Z beach: Immutable CONSes is not one of them.
2020-04-29T08:33:57Z White_Flame: *shims
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2020-04-29T08:35:18Z beach: White_Flame: In fact, WSCL is such an idea.
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2020-04-29T08:36:53Z aeth: beach: Unfortunately, extensible sequences is only supported by SBCL, ABCL, and Clasp, which is probably why we don't see a lot of experimentation in sequences. (And even that is probably going to be a performance loss)
2020-04-29T08:36:55Z flip214: beach: I guess such proposals without research are called "brainstorming" or "wishes" ;)
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2020-04-29T08:38:10Z beach: flip214: Which is very tiresome when done by uninformed people, because of the large amount of work to refute the suggestions.
2020-04-29T08:38:38Z beach: aeth: No, there is no performance loss in extensible sequences.
2020-04-29T08:39:28Z beach: aeth: Typically, CONS and VECTOR are tested for first, and if it is neither, then, instead of calling error, a generic function is called.
2020-04-29T08:39:29Z flip214: beach: I understand that. quite a sizable part of my job is to say "no" to people as well
2020-04-29T08:39:37Z flip214: sadly that normally takes quite a lot more words
2020-04-29T08:39:46Z beach: Exactly.
2020-04-29T08:39:57Z beach: But you are paid to do that then.
2020-04-29T08:40:05Z beach: A committee would be working for free.
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2020-04-29T08:41:03Z beach: aeth: Not only is there no performance loss.  It is trivial to implement too.
2020-04-29T08:41:23Z beach: The hardest part is to decide the name of the package in which to stick the name of the generic function.
2020-04-29T08:42:54Z beach: Now, with the SICL fast generic-function dispatch technique, you would do the first two tests in the generic function as well, so you would simplify the implementation that way.  And it is just as fast.
2020-04-29T08:47:42Z Fare: beach: I was thinking about doing a MOP for prototype OO and/or for class-on-top-of-prototype, or best-of-both-world, etc.
2020-04-29T08:48:09Z Fare: maybe having implemented MOP things in SICL gives you ideas about that.
2020-04-29T08:48:10Z beach: Sounds great!
2020-04-29T08:48:36Z beach: Not really.  I think one would have to study what the Self people did.
2020-04-29T08:49:06Z beach: I have intended to do that in the past, but haven't found the time.
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2020-04-29T08:54:22Z Fare: My reading list is super long
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2020-04-29T08:56:20Z flip214: I've got a list of reading lists
2020-04-29T08:57:03Z aeth: I have a reading vector instead, for better cache performance.
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2020-04-29T09:02:08Z shangul: Recommended ncurses library for Common Lisp supporting colors?
2020-04-29T09:02:10Z no-defun-allowed: I apparently have some kind of Bloom filter for reading, because I can't remember what to read, but when I find something I say "oh, I've been meaning to read that".
2020-04-29T09:03:29Z jmercouris: shangul: there is one but beware of the license
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2020-04-29T09:03:40Z shangul: Yeah that's a problem
2020-04-29T09:03:54Z shangul: MIT/X11 style is better for my application I guess
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2020-04-29T09:05:41Z jmercouris: I haven't tried this: https://github.com/McParen/croatoan/ but it looks promising
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2020-04-29T09:09:56Z shangul: I need a good tutorial and docs, too. I have never worked with ncurses before.
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2020-04-29T09:21:54Z jdz: jackdaniel is working on terminal backend for McCLIM, and I'm pretty sure he said he's doing that without curses by using a subset of escape sequences.
2020-04-29T09:22:29Z jdz: I'll probably need something like this in the near future, so I'm interested in the answers.
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2020-04-29T09:24:06Z jdz: I found https://github.com/dkochmanski/charming-clim, and it seems I was mistaken.
2020-04-29T09:24:44Z jdz: Or maybe jackdaniel has found a way to do without cl-charms.
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2020-04-29T09:26:25Z jmercouris: shangul: there are apparently commented examples in the source
2020-04-29T09:26:42Z shangul: Yeah that's my hope
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2020-04-29T09:41:20Z LdBeth: the point of using ncurse is it supports some old obscure terminal types
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2020-04-29T09:53:53Z jackdaniel: jdz: the current approach does it without ffi
2020-04-29T09:54:19Z jdz: jackdaniel: Is the code publicly available?
2020-04-29T09:54:31Z jackdaniel: no, it still needs some work
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2020-04-29T09:54:41Z jackdaniel: but I can share a funny screenshot from a few months back
2020-04-29T09:55:11Z jackdaniel: https://files.mastodon.social/media_attachments/files/018/592/253/original/5e402b25c32183cc.png line caps
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2020-04-29T09:57:53Z jackdaniel: this one is fun too: https://files.mastodon.social/media_attachments/files/018/554/072/original/b580c24032c9c573.png
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2020-04-29T09:58:57Z jackdaniel: you could call these rendering algorithms implemented for characters an art;-)
2020-04-29T09:59:15Z jdz: I discovered yesterday that Unicode box drawing glyphs don't have arrows.
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2020-04-29T09:59:31Z jackdaniel: brb
2020-04-29T09:59:46Z jdz: I.e., it's impossible to draw a box with an arrow pointing to it (to the edge).
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2020-04-29T10:04:15Z pjb: There's: ⁡
2020-04-29T10:04:31Z pjb: but it's not a box element.
2020-04-29T10:04:33Z Nilby: This │←── isn't good enough?
2020-04-29T10:04:55Z jdz: Nope.
2020-04-29T10:05:28Z jdz: It's way worse for vertical axis.
2020-04-29T10:05:34Z White_Flame: and is horribly unaligned on my screen
2020-04-29T10:05:51Z jdz: Might be because of missing glyphs in your font.
2020-04-29T10:05:51Z White_Flame: the arrow stem doesn't align with the horizontal line
2020-04-29T10:05:55Z Nilby: Looks fine in mine. ☹
2020-04-29T10:06:04Z no-defun-allowed: Not here, that ←is lower than the —
2020-04-29T10:06:24Z White_Flame: I doubt unicode defines them as needing to connect
2020-04-29T10:06:26Z jdz: But that is one of the problems with no arrows in box drawing page.
2020-04-29T10:06:52Z jdz: *block
2020-04-29T10:11:46Z jdz: Maybe they'll add a few "combining arrows" in a future version.
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2020-04-29T10:12:42Z marcoxa: Hi...  anybody here now?
2020-04-29T10:13:08Z phoe: marcoxa: yes
2020-04-29T10:13:15Z jdz: marcoxa: Do you want an answer from everybody?
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2020-04-29T10:13:28Z phoe: and even if they aren't, they'll come back sooner or later and read the backlog
2020-04-29T10:13:34Z marcoxa: Nope.  Just pinging... :)
2020-04-29T10:13:43Z phoe: therefore: pong
2020-04-29T10:13:53Z marcoxa: :)
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2020-04-29T10:23:47Z jackdaniel: o/
2020-04-29T10:23:51Z jackdaniel: I'm back
2020-04-29T10:24:05Z phoe: welcome back
2020-04-29T10:24:09Z jackdaniel: jdz: writing a console backend already resulted in numerous bugs fixed
2020-04-29T10:24:45Z jackdaniel: because when a pixel is not the square, you see plenty of invalid assumptions on the screen
2020-04-29T10:25:45Z jackdaniel: also it shows that measurement unit which depends on a device unit is very inadequate, because once 200px is around 3cm and once it is half of the 4k screen
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2020-04-29T10:28:26Z jackdaniel: (and that 100px x 100px is not always a square!)
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2020-04-29T10:29:28Z MichaelRaskin: Full (double) width characters in monospace fonts sometimes solve that latter problem, but this 100×100 square is usually still not what you would want
2020-04-29T10:29:56Z Nilby: I use (code-char #x2580) for terminal graphics.
2020-04-29T10:31:26Z jdz: Or use ultra wide font (like Inconsolata Ulra-Expanded).
2020-04-29T10:31:32Z jdz: *Ultra
2020-04-29T10:32:59Z Nilby: ▀ instantly makes things look better, but it makes rendering code a little more annoying.
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2020-04-29T10:38:35Z Nilby: jackdaniel: You probably know that PDF/Postscript uses it's own device independent made up unit, and that browsers try to do that, but usually fail.
2020-04-29T10:39:31Z jdz: Nilby: Characters from "Block Elements" Unicode block can increase resolution two times; in case of upwards and rightwards growing blocks — eight times.
2020-04-29T10:40:54Z jdz: The braille block increases horizontal resolution two times, and vertical four times.
2020-04-29T10:40:55Z jackdaniel: the point is that it reveals problems, it is not a font what is at fault :)
2020-04-29T10:41:03Z Nilby: Hmmm. Using that upwards and rightwards would really complicate the rendering.
2020-04-29T10:41:31Z jackdaniel: Nilby: I do, but thanks for pointing this out. they use points, 1/72in
2020-04-29T10:41:49Z jdz: Nilby: it does not work for general rendering, only when drawing horizontal and vertical bar graphs with one end having higher resolution.
2020-04-29T10:42:18Z jackdaniel: there is also dp unit proposed by the material design guidelines, that is 1px on 160dpi screen, a physical size which maps well to the "average case" when assuming pixels are small squares on a monitor
2020-04-29T10:43:11Z jdz notices this is #lisp and not #clim
2020-04-29T10:46:04Z no-defun-allowed: An anti-climactic observation.
2020-04-29T10:46:28Z jackdaniel: clim is still ontopic on lisp luckily
2020-04-29T10:46:33Z jackdaniel: it is not that it is written in ruby
2020-04-29T10:47:04Z jdz: Now that you mentioned Ruby, I want to bring up the following issue:
2020-04-29T10:47:44Z jdz: (end of joke)
2020-04-29T10:48:00Z jackdaniel slowly starts laughing ;)
2020-04-29T10:48:29Z jdz: I added that so that people holding their breath stop doing that.
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2020-04-29T10:51:04Z jmercouris: (end joke)
2020-04-29T10:51:27Z jmercouris: (with-joke ("How that you mentioned Ruby, I want to bring up the following issue:"))
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2020-04-29T11:02:35Z flip214: jdz: does that mean you see no issues with Ruby? Or that there aren't any?
2020-04-29T11:02:58Z jdz: It means discussing Ruby is off-topic.
2020-04-29T11:03:11Z flip214: right
2020-04-29T11:03:19Z no-defun-allowed: cl-ruby?
2020-04-29T11:03:19Z flip214: so ==> that way
2020-04-29T11:04:09Z no-defun-allowed: (specifically https://github.com/jgrant27/cl-ruby not the FFI package)
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2020-04-29T11:24:59Z phoe: I'm bootstrapping a series of online Lisp meets that will hopefully gain traction, since the ELS formula this year turned out to be surprisingly nice. I'll try to kick the series off myself and talk about condition systems - more details at https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/ga7kfk/online_lisp_meeting_series/
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2020-04-29T11:34:59Z boeg: phoe: thats awesome!
2020-04-29T11:37:54Z beach: phoe: 18:00 is when I fix dinner, so I won't be able to participate.
2020-04-29T11:39:31Z beach: phoe: But don't change it for my sake.  Just to let you know why I won't be there.
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2020-04-29T11:42:06Z phoe: beach: OK. I can't do it earlier on weekdays because of my dayjob; there will be a recording though.
2020-04-29T11:45:07Z marcoxa: very good idea phoe
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2020-04-29T11:49:26Z phoe: the only unknown is who would like to talk next
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2020-04-29T11:49:48Z phoe: _death suggested a very good idea, organizing lightning talk series with multiple short presentations
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2020-04-29T11:57:57Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: I guess you can always up the level of crazy of the demos invited if you feel like not having enough talks?
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2020-04-29T11:59:19Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: what do you mean, how crazy are you thinking, and why do I feel that you are about to propose something related to hardcore code walking
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2020-04-29T11:59:35Z phoe: I mean, I, personally, would like to see some of that
2020-04-29T12:00:32Z MichaelRaskin: I refuse to recognise code walking as crazy! We need to make it Lisp-mainstream to regain our talking points like «we can just build it on top of the language»
2020-04-29T12:00:44Z MichaelRaskin: For _all_ values of «it»!
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2020-04-29T12:02:12Z phoe: I have to admit that I enjoy this attitude of yours
2020-04-29T12:02:19Z phoe: you're hired
2020-04-29T12:02:20Z MichaelRaskin: I dunno, I think QueryFS is kind of crazier, but apparently I need to wait a bit more with it.
2020-04-29T12:04:05Z Nilby: What's not to like about "crazy" Lisp demos? Even if you don't want to use it, it's fun to see.
2020-04-29T12:04:10Z MichaelRaskin: There seems to be some expansion of «come on, Swank ≠ Emacs» but not yet enough for people to recognise «random other stuff» as worth integrating with in a uniform way. (FS API is exactly the way of integrating with «randome other stuff» without specificity)
2020-04-29T12:04:24Z p_l is suddenly reminded of "json-metaclass go brrrr"
2020-04-29T12:04:56Z MichaelRaskin: Nilby: well, specifically with QueryFS there are too many people who think that everything is always inside Emacs, so of course the appeal is lost on them
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2020-04-29T12:06:39Z Nilby: Yeah, I don't even use swank/slime, I'm probably on the "crazy" side.
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2020-04-29T12:07:52Z MichaelRaskin: I write Common Lisp (but also POSIX shell) code in Vim, and I do not even use SLIM-V/VLIME.
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2020-04-29T12:08:33Z phoe: madness
2020-04-29T12:08:39Z Lycurgus: "crazy" that's short for "thinks for themselves" innit
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2020-04-29T12:09:23Z Lycurgus: also would tend to be the case if you used a commercial lisp with an ide
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2020-04-29T12:15:58Z MichaelRaskin: Well, if one wants to expand Common Lisp usage, one needs to target people who want to use «also Common Lisp», not just people actually committed to focus on Common Lisp and do it right.
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2020-04-29T12:16:30Z phoe: right
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2020-04-29T12:24:59Z shangul: jmercouris, I just realized that "The API is not yet stable."
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2020-04-29T12:28:16Z shangul: I still wait for an answer from people with experience with ncurses and CL together.
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2020-04-29T12:39:00Z _death: did you see http://turtleware.eu/posts/cl-charms-crash-course.html
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2020-04-29T13:21:43Z shangul: _death, Thanks but they are writing it. probably not stable enough, yet.
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2020-04-29T13:23:54Z shangul: I want to create a window and treat each character as a cell or something and then write on cells directly(e.g. (write "#" 20 24))
2020-04-29T13:24:07Z shangul: I wonder what library or module should I use.
2020-04-29T13:26:13Z flip214: shangul: https://www.cliki.net/console lists a few others, like cl-ansi-term and so on
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2020-04-29T13:32:34Z Xach: shangul: out of curiosity, what are you making for the terminal?
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2020-04-29T13:49:11Z _death: shangul: I wrote something for that, that uses acute-terminal-control
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2020-04-29T14:06:46Z shangul: flip214, Thank you. Will look into that
2020-04-29T14:06:54Z shangul: Xach, Cellular Automata
2020-04-29T14:07:24Z shangul: _death, For my purpose. Got link or something?
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2020-04-29T14:13:01Z _death: shangul: it's part of a larger system that's not ready for publishing, but I updated a gist with code for the relevant mechanism.. it should not be hard to make it use cl-charms (or have multiple backends...) .. one thing I'm not sure about is how colors are represented (due to acute-terminal-control)
2020-04-29T14:13:12Z _death: the gist is https://gist.github.com/death/c08917417b7acef288dcd28e9eb2c440
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2020-04-29T14:17:27Z _death: (what I mean about colors, is I'm not sure I like how they're represented at the moment)
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2020-04-29T14:19:00Z shangul: _death, Thanks anyway. Will look into that soon
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2020-04-29T16:15:11Z mgr_: asdf doesn't support good old logical-pathname-translations anymore? what a shame. I finally noticed why some packaged would load with my updated system because I set up my asdf:*central-registry* with logical pathnames...
2020-04-29T16:15:58Z mgr_: and that fails for asdf systems with dots, like cepl.build or com.gigamonkeys.binary-data
2020-04-29T16:16:25Z mgr_: *why some packages would NOT load*
2020-04-29T16:22:53Z mgr_: or is that an sbcl bug... I get a [Condition of type SB-KERNEL:NAMESTRING-PARSE-ERROR]: "parse error in namestring: logical namestring character which is not alphanumeric or hyphen #ß. com.gigamonkeys.binary-data"
2020-04-29T16:23:52Z mgr_: but http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/19_ca.htm specifies "name" as a "word" and "word" as "one or more uppercase letters, digits, and hyphens. "
2020-04-29T16:24:12Z mgr_: why does sbcl then complain about the digit?
2020-04-29T16:24:21Z mgr_: ah, sorry. :) digit not dot.
2020-04-29T16:25:19Z mgr_: so these names with dots cannot be described with logical pathnames it seems?
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2020-04-29T16:30:39Z mgr_: hm, yes, the problem is really a filename like com.gigamonkeys.binary-data.asd or cepl.build.asd
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2020-04-29T16:33:08Z jmercouris: so I have a restart
2020-04-29T16:33:17Z jmercouris: how can I etner some arbitrary code instead of selecting a restart?
2020-04-29T16:33:24Z jmercouris: I want to inexpect the value of some variable
2020-04-29T16:33:46Z jmercouris: I just type form instead of restart
2020-04-29T16:33:58Z beach: In SLIME?
2020-04-29T16:34:03Z jmercouris: in shell
2020-04-29T16:34:38Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I tried cffi:*foreign-library-directories* and I got NIL
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2020-04-29T17:39:50Z phoe: jmercouris: in shell? you should have a REPL
2020-04-29T17:40:02Z phoe: I mean, if you are in the debugger
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2020-04-29T17:40:50Z vivit: Is there any way to inherit a class allocation?
2020-04-29T17:41:01Z Bike: what do you mean?
2020-04-29T17:41:08Z phoe: vivit: other than the fact that you inherit the whole slot?
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2020-04-29T17:45:02Z vivit: If you have some class FOO and some class BAR which inherits FOO, can you have a slot A on both which is class-allocated, but individually for each class? So if I have objects *FOO-1*, *FOO-2*, *BAR-1*, and *BAR-2*, such that (A *FOO-1*) and (A *FOO-2*) reference the same thing, and (A *BAR-1*) and (A *BAR-2*) reference a different same thing
2020-04-29T17:46:10Z vivit: And can you do this without duplicating the slot definition
2020-04-29T17:46:15Z jackdaniel: you should name the slot differently and have the accessor of the same name
2020-04-29T17:46:22Z Bike: i think you need to duplicate the slot definition.
2020-04-29T17:46:39Z vivit: rats
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2020-04-29T17:52:54Z theseb: Why are you able to define functions in any scope but macros can only be defined in the top level?
2020-04-29T17:53:13Z Bike: what do you mean? you can define macros at any scope.
2020-04-29T17:53:14Z theseb: i don't see hell will break loose if someone does defmacro in some random location
2020-04-29T17:53:22Z theseb: Bike: maybe i misunderstood
2020-04-29T17:53:36Z _death: clhs macrolet
2020-04-29T17:53:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2020-04-29T17:53:37Z theseb: Bike: i can look up the link but i read that macros must be in the "toplevel"
2020-04-29T17:53:54Z Bike: if you're compiling a file, the compiler won't notice macro definitions that aren't at top level. is that what you mean?
2020-04-29T17:54:04Z theseb: Bike: maybe that is what they meant
2020-04-29T17:54:25Z theseb: Bike: but why can't the compiler see macro defs anywhere?
2020-04-29T17:55:11Z Bike: for the compiler to be able to use a macro, it has to be able to define it at compile time. if your macro definition tries to close over a variable or something, the compiler couldn't use it anyway, since that variable doesn't exist at compile time.
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2020-04-29T17:55:36Z Bike: and if a macro doesn't close over anything, it might as well be at top level
2020-04-29T17:55:54Z jackdaniel: it is to keep things sane for the compiler developers
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2020-04-29T17:56:12Z theseb: Bike: when you say "close" to you mean..."have access to the variable's value"?
2020-04-29T17:56:17Z theseb: s/to/do
2020-04-29T17:56:24Z Bike: like a closure. you know what a closure is, right?
2020-04-29T17:56:27Z theseb: no
2020-04-29T17:56:30Z jackdaniel: (let ((foo 42)) (defmacro bar …))
2020-04-29T17:56:39Z jackdaniel: macro bar closes over a variable foo
2020-04-29T17:56:41Z Bike: you should figure that out first. it's a fundamental concept of the language.
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2020-04-29T17:57:17Z theseb: ok
2020-04-29T17:57:46Z theseb: Bike: how do you know if some expressions is "at the toplevel"?
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2020-04-29T17:58:22Z Bike: a complex set of rules defined in 3.2.3.1
2020-04-29T17:59:00Z Bike: to sum up, forms are not contained in another form are top level, as are subforms of operators such as progn, locally, and macrolet, but not let or flet
2020-04-29T17:59:11Z Bike: provided the operator form is itself toplevel
2020-04-29T17:59:19Z kristof: theseb: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/s_flet_.htm
2020-04-29T17:59:23Z kristof: see "macrolet"
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2020-04-29T18:02:18Z kristof: Oh, I see another person has already linked that.
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2020-04-29T18:06:12Z theseb: Bike: when you define a function with lambda it may have free variables....the values those free variables take must be defined using the environment WHEN THE FUNC DEF was evaluated if you are using lexical scoping
2020-04-29T18:06:39Z theseb: Bike: the func + necessary environment = closures! yes?
2020-04-29T18:06:45Z Bike: yeah.
2020-04-29T18:06:50Z theseb: w00t!
2020-04-29T18:06:52Z theseb: thanks
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2020-04-29T18:07:31Z Bike: so, the point is that when you do defmacro or whatever, you're defining a function in the same way, so it could be a closure
2020-04-29T18:07:54Z Bike: this is a pretty unusual thing to do, but it's allowed, and that's what a non toplevel defmacro would be like
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2020-04-29T18:28:18Z dnaeon: hey Lispers!
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2020-04-29T18:28:46Z dnaeon: Just got SBCL updated on my macOS Catalina to version 2.0.4 and got this error when trying to start the REPL
2020-04-29T18:28:51Z dnaeon: core was built for runtime "Mojave-2.local-brew-2019-04-04-00-24-50" but this is "dnaeon-a03.local-dnaeon-2020-04-29-21-24-19"
2020-04-29T18:28:58Z dnaeon: Anyone else got this, or is it just me?
2020-04-29T18:30:15Z dnaeon: For whatever reason it seems like I got a build from Mojave, while I'm actually on Catalina
2020-04-29T18:30:33Z dnaeon: Using `brew` to install it, first time I got this problem during update.
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2020-04-29T18:37:11Z boeg: I have installed sbcl via roswell, and are now trying to build a project that looks for "sbcl" in $PATH in my shell, but there is none - is there a way to have roswell place a symlink or something for the default sbcl binary?
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2020-04-29T18:43:31Z mgr_: poing
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2020-04-29T18:44:26Z phoe: boeg: the easiest way I've found myself is to `apt install sbcl` that will drop a separate system-wide sbcl
2020-04-29T18:44:41Z phoe: dnaeon: which Lisp implementation?
2020-04-29T18:44:53Z mgr_: (sorry, wrong channel)
2020-04-29T18:44:56Z boeg: phoe: that just seems a bit weird to install sbcl twice :/
2020-04-29T18:45:09Z dnaeon: phoe: SBCL
2020-04-29T18:45:12Z phoe: boeg: it is, but I have no idea how to configure roswell like that
2020-04-29T18:45:25Z boeg: phoe: alright :)
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2020-04-29T18:46:14Z phoe: dnaeon: huh, it seems that cores got mixed up during upgrade?... I mean, it seems to try to load a core from the older version
2020-04-29T18:46:17Z phoe: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/9227e85822535f2f97419479b2ecf299ac793434/src/runtime/coreparse.c#L1020
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2020-04-29T18:47:15Z dnaeon: phoe: thanks, will try that out.
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2020-04-29T18:47:29Z phoe: dnaeon: I mean, this is just a pointer to SBCL's source where this error happens
2020-04-29T18:47:46Z phoe: the main issue I see is that the newer C runtime tries to load an older Lisp core
2020-04-29T18:47:55Z phoe: since that is what it complains about
2020-04-29T18:48:09Z phoe: I'd try to figure out what brew did to end up in such a situation.
2020-04-29T18:48:27Z dnaeon: yep, will spend more time on that one, thanks for the pointers!
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2020-04-29T20:24:49Z phoe: clhs ~X
2020-04-29T20:24:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cbe.htm
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2020-04-29T23:02:15Z jasom: Is there an efficient implemenation of byte-swapping?  something like rotate-byte but for e.g. what C would call bswap_32
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2020-04-29T23:03:37Z aeth: sounds like a question for #sbcl
2020-04-29T23:04:39Z jasom: ah, found swap-bytes in quicklisp.
2020-04-29T23:05:06Z jasom: looks like it compiles down to a single bswap on sbcl/x86
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2020-04-29T23:37:12Z vivit: There's no way to get a macro to expand into a slot specification, is there?
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2020-04-29T23:46:47Z pjb: vivit: not if you want to use it in a defclass form.  You have to write your own defclass macro.
2020-04-29T23:46:53Z Bike: no. slot specifications are not evaluated, so they are not macroexpanded either.
2020-04-29T23:47:49Z pjb: vivit: have a look at: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:pjb-defclass in https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/cesarum/utility.lisp
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2020-04-30T00:04:24Z gendl: Hi, I'm getting this error in SBCL again:
2020-04-30T00:04:58Z gendl: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/9wggSi4A/
2020-04-30T00:05:19Z gendl: (sorry about that formatting).
2020-04-30T00:06:25Z gendl: stassats said it's because some concurrent code is setting stuff in a hash table.  Probably I have to put a lock around whatever code is modifying that hash table.
2020-04-30T00:06:34Z gendl: But, how to track down what hash table it is?
2020-04-30T00:07:41Z gendl: this happens when running zaserve on zacl (a fork of allegroserve which runs on the zacl compatibility layer,https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/zbeane/zacl )
2020-04-30T00:08:32Z gendl: and it happens if I do something like hit [Shift]-reload on a web page with several images, and it hits the server with a dozen or so requests simultaneously for all those image files.
2020-04-30T00:10:20Z gendl: I take it that things like (setf (gethash ... ))  are not thread-safe in SBCL?
2020-04-30T00:11:08Z gendl: sorry i guess I should be posting this in #sbcl too..
2020-04-30T00:14:32Z Bike: setf gethash is not thread safe on any implementation i know of... unless the make-hash-table that made the table is marked as synchronized/locked/etc in some implementation dependent way
2020-04-30T00:15:59Z gendl: Bike: Thanks.  I think I just found the offending hash table, by turning on debugging in aserve.
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2020-04-30T00:17:40Z gendl: I forgot that by default aserve traps errors, prints them, and continues on its merry way without going into the debugger. Now I got a real debugger and I see a recognizable hash table from aserve being fiddled with in the backtrace... diving into it...
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2020-04-30T00:18:09Z Bike: on sbcl it's :synchronized t, apparently
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2020-04-30T00:25:06Z gendl: Bike: Yay! that seems to fix it!
2020-04-30T00:25:15Z Bike: cool.
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2020-04-30T00:26:05Z gendl: it's handling a few dozen simultaneous requests, anyway.
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2020-04-30T00:27:18Z gendl: it's not really the requests, it's that aserve is publishing files on the fly under the auspices of a `publish-directory` -- so it just accesses that hash table the first time the files are accessed after server startup.
2020-04-30T00:27:46Z gendl: but if a page is containing dozens of little images then it's hitting the hash table simultaneously with all those
2020-04-30T00:27:56Z gendl: i'm not sure why it doesn't crash Allegro or CCL though.
2020-04-30T00:27:59Z gendl: or LW
2020-04-30T00:28:34Z gendl: maybe they do have synchronous hash tables by default? Or maybe I've just been lucky.
2020-04-30T00:30:21Z Bike: allegro docs don't seem to mention thread safety.
2020-04-30T00:30:34Z gendl: now i have to figure out how to make the fix without touching aserve sources where that `make-hash-table` lives, as is our directive -- trying to make this work with pristine aserve sources.
2020-04-30T00:31:25Z gendl: maybe SBCL is doing a safety check which the other impls aren't doing  - it seems it's auditing hash-table-count somehow
2020-04-30T00:32:12Z gendl: i don't think anything is accessing the same hash table slots at the same time -- it's just that the count might be fleetingly inconsistent - and somehow SBCL is picking that up and throwing an error.
2020-04-30T00:34:30Z gendl: anyway at least i'm happy that the crashes themselves are not  a big mystery anymore -- thanks!
2020-04-30T00:34:39Z gendl: btw we met in London right?
2020-04-30T00:35:09Z Bike: me? i've never been to london.
2020-04-30T00:35:54Z gendl: ok sorry i have you confused. London ELS (2015?) i thought I met "bike" from here. but maybe was another nick from here.
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2020-04-30T02:55:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-04-30T03:10:16Z anlsh: Is there a portable condition for indexing an array out of bounds? I get an sb-int:array-invalid-index-error but that seems sbcl-specific
2020-04-30T03:11:15Z Bike: i don't think so. you can check beforehand with array-in-bounds-p.
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2020-04-30T03:13:42Z phadthai: no special exceptions mentioned at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm or http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_svref.htm
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2020-04-30T03:22:21Z aeth: If only there was a portability library for things like this (if that's even possible)
2020-04-30T03:26:34Z edgar-rft: let's name it trivial-things-like-this
2020-04-30T03:28:52Z aeth: no, it needs to be trivial-array-invalid-index-error
2020-04-30T03:30:31Z edgar-rft: what kind of restarts would it offer?
2020-04-30T03:31:32Z aeth: Hmm, it would be tricky/impossible to implement even with a wrapper around AREF because in ECL (aref (list) 5) and (aref (make-array 5) 5) are both SIMPLE-TYPE-ERRORs.
2020-04-30T03:31:48Z aeth: Well, I mean, without resorting to the (probably) performance-destroying ARRAY-IN-BOUNDS-P
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2020-04-30T03:34:00Z buffergn0me: This sounds like a CDR
2020-04-30T03:35:09Z buffergn0me: Also it would probably be pretty easy to patch ECL
2020-04-30T03:38:28Z phadthai: I think that ECL will silently refuse to access an array out of bounds without warning or error when compiled with a high optimization level (at least it used to), so there's probably no other portable way than array-in-bounds-p (or to make sure the array is large enough)
2020-04-30T03:39:07Z phadthai: (or other custom checks)
2020-04-30T03:41:39Z buffergn0me: Well that is true for a lot of other checks, in most CL compilers
2020-04-30T03:41:40Z phadthai: s/access/write to/
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2020-04-30T03:44:02Z phadthai: and ECL itself has no idea what other code under does, i.e. one can make it call write(2) on the buffer of a vector of course
2020-04-30T03:44:20Z phadthai: or read(2) etc
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2020-04-30T03:45:24Z phadthai: so programmer judgment always necessary
2020-04-30T03:48:57Z phadthai: and in typical code where arrays must grow, user code tracks itself its size and ensures to grow it
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2020-04-30T05:46:50Z jackdaniel: adding appropriate condition should be easy (and call it instead of the simple error), please make a ticket on gitlab
2020-04-30T05:46:57Z jackdaniel: s/call/signal/
2020-04-30T05:48:23Z jackdaniel: boundary checks are skipped only on extreme optimization settings like speed 3 debugging 0
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2020-04-30T06:19:46Z aeth: hmm... Is there a way to have an efficient trivial-foo on top of the condition system if the conditions aren't exactly the same name?
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2020-04-30T06:23:11Z aeth: we might actually have a new trivial-foo out of this after all
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2020-04-30T06:27:17Z phoe: aeth: yes, deftype with reader conditionals
2020-04-30T06:27:43Z phoe: now, let's hope that it actually works...
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2020-04-30T06:27:59Z phoe: clhs #+
2020-04-30T06:27:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm
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2020-04-30T06:36:22Z aeth: phoe: so as long as we can convince implementors to use distinct conditions for things like array indices, we can make a portability library over it?
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2020-04-30T06:37:03Z phoe: wait a second...
2020-04-30T06:37:10Z phoe: kind-of
2020-04-30T06:37:20Z phoe: you can use the deftype in handlers
2020-04-30T06:37:43Z phoe: but not for instantiation
2020-04-30T06:38:06Z beach: Wouldn't you just handle the implementation-specific condition and signal one that is specific to the trivial-??? library?
2020-04-30T06:39:15Z phoe: beach: that would mean that you need two handlers, one for the implementation-specific condition, and another for the trivial-array-out-of-bounds condition
2020-04-30T06:39:48Z beach: One would be inside the trivial-??? library, no?
2020-04-30T06:40:04Z beach: If so, what is the problem with that?
2020-04-30T06:40:08Z phoe: I don't yet understand, what would be the interface of that library?
2020-04-30T06:40:34Z phoe: a custom AREF that adds a handler around the array access?
2020-04-30T06:40:39Z beach: (with-trivial-??? (aref ...))
2020-04-30T06:40:46Z phoe: oh, sure, that can be done
2020-04-30T06:41:19Z phoe: that'll require users to wrap all of their array accesors in a with-trivial-??? though - it's cumbersome
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2020-04-30T06:41:28Z beach: But yeah, that would be prohibitive for single calls to AREF.
2020-04-30T06:41:42Z phoe: and error prone, unless one defines their own AREF
2020-04-30T06:41:54Z beach: Sure, yes.
2020-04-30T06:42:20Z aeth: there are a few others that would be good to handle here, like DESTRUCTURING-BIND
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2020-04-30T06:42:30Z aeth: and people can probably think of a few more that people want to handle but can't
2020-04-30T06:42:33Z phoe: aeth: https://github.com/phoe/destructuring-bind-star/
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2020-04-30T07:02:58Z asarch: If I have: (tacos 3), an easy way to get the number of tacos instead of (car (cdr '(tacos 3)))?
2020-04-30T07:03:21Z White_Flame: (second '(tacos 3))?
2020-04-30T07:03:22Z flip214: asarch: SECOND
2020-04-30T07:03:33Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-04-30T07:03:39Z White_Flame: or (cadr '(tacos 3))
2020-04-30T07:04:00Z phadthai: now I want a taco
2020-04-30T07:04:24Z White_Flame: now I want pad thai
2020-04-30T07:04:33Z phadthai: why not both
2020-04-30T07:04:43Z White_Flame: \:D/
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2020-04-30T07:05:51Z asarch: Let's get some tacos with beer!
2020-04-30T07:06:26Z phoe serves'em all in #lispcafe
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2020-04-30T09:49:15Z boeg: Is there a library that has utilities for things like taking a string and making it url safe?
2020-04-30T09:51:52Z jackdaniel: what is an url safe string?
2020-04-30T09:52:08Z jdz: There's drakma:url-encode, most probably cl-who or other HTML generation libraries have something.
2020-04-30T09:52:54Z Shinmera:  It's called URL encoding and is a pretty trivial single function.
2020-04-30T09:52:55Z boeg: jdz: thanks, ill check it out
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2020-04-30T09:53:58Z boeg: jackdaniel: its obviously a string thats safe for using in urls  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-04-30T09:54:10Z boeg: Shinmera: indeed!
2020-04-30T09:54:12Z Shinmera: not that obvious.
2020-04-30T09:54:19Z jackdaniel: it still doesn't make sense to me, but I'll stop at that
2020-04-30T09:54:45Z adlai: Xach: I have not previously received this specific complaint, however, it does weigh upon my mind: a few of "scalpl" project's ASDF systems perform external http requests, at load-time. problem?
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2020-04-30T09:55:05Z boeg: if you want to be pedantic, it's obviously not obvious, but I think it's easy to infer a meaning from the same statement i gave
2020-04-30T09:55:16Z boeg: simple statement*
2020-04-30T09:55:55Z flip214: adlai: that's a bad thing, right
2020-04-30T09:56:09Z jackdaniel: what are quantum particles? well, obviously that are particles, which are quantum, dummy!
2020-04-30T09:56:23Z adlai: it's not harmful to operation of the program, although it could cause undue headaches to the distributor
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2020-04-30T09:56:47Z beach: I agree with jackdaniel.  For one thing, I don't know the definition of "safe" in this context.
2020-04-30T09:57:25Z jackdaniel: adlai: doing external http requests during load time may be problematic for few reasons: one is security, there is no guarantee, that resources loaded won't become malicious at some point of time. another is the fact, that some installations are air-gapped
2020-04-30T09:57:47Z mood: It's just escaping characters for use in a URL. For example, if you want to use "/" in a path component, you encode it as %2F instead
2020-04-30T09:58:22Z jackdaniel: mood: thank you, that makes more sense
2020-04-30T09:58:24Z beach: mood: What is the justification for using the word "safe" for such a transformation?
2020-04-30T09:58:27Z adlai sighs and wonders what sort of overly-helpful airgap could possibly think that forwarding such requests could be a good idea
2020-04-30T09:58:42Z fbmnds: @boeg I guess you are referring to url safetxý in this sense : https://cheatsheetseries.owasp.org/cheatsheets/Unvalidated_Redirects_and_Forwards_Cheat_Sheet.html#validating-urls
2020-04-30T09:59:06Z adlai: the primary reason for doing requests at load-time is that there are APIs that change at a frequency significantly lower than the lifetime of an installation
2020-04-30T09:59:09Z no-defun-allowed: beach: It's "safe" in the sense that it can't break HTML syntax.
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2020-04-30T09:59:34Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Thanks!
2020-04-30T09:59:49Z jdz: adlai: I wonder why the requests are not done in a setup or initialization function?
2020-04-30T09:59:51Z mood: beach: Encoding a string in that way allows it to be inserted into a URL without invoking the special meaning of certain characters.
2020-04-30T10:00:25Z mood: no-defun-allowed: That's not really correct. URLs and HTML are unrelated, and a & would still need to be escaped for use in HTML
2020-04-30T10:00:31Z beach: Thanks.  I think I understand.
2020-04-30T10:00:35Z no-defun-allowed: Suppose I have the string "foo<p>bar" and just put it between <b>...</b>; then I would get <b>foo<p>bar</b>. That's not correct; but it's very bad if that string encodes some JavaScript program.
2020-04-30T10:00:47Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, we're talking about URLs. My bad.
2020-04-30T10:01:20Z phoe: still, injection is possible in URLs as well; the idea is similar, just the encoding differs
2020-04-30T10:01:45Z boeg: beach, jackdaniel: i don't think there is anything to agree upon - I didn't provide more details, because they were not needed. Sufficient advice arrived swiftly, as I suspected, because it's a task that's used in a lot of places - I have done similar things in a lot of other languages, and suspected it would be easy to find a usable answer, which it was. If I was working on a quantum competer and needed an answer fitting my
2020-04-30T10:01:45Z boeg: exact
2020-04-30T10:01:45Z boeg: definition of a quantum particle, i would have gone into greater lengths with my question, alas i am not, although it would be exciting
2020-04-30T10:01:49Z no-defun-allowed: A better example would be that encoding the alist (("foo" . "&bar")) as a query string like ?foo=&bar has a different meaning to what was anticipated.
2020-04-30T10:02:05Z boeg: computer*
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2020-04-30T10:03:09Z adlai: jdz: good question, i'll have to meditate upon the reasons why anyone other than I would have such problems anyway
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2020-04-30T10:03:19Z _death: adlai: it may be a good idea to allow the user to choose the method of retrieval, for example to read from a file instead
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2020-04-30T10:04:52Z jackdaniel: boeg: things which are obvious to you are not obvious to others. if everyone would assume that their knowledge is a common knowledge, then nobody would answer any question. I've asked because I was curious, and it seems to me that your answer was at least little condescending
2020-04-30T10:05:06Z adlai: _death: thank you, that is a good suggestion
2020-04-30T10:05:35Z adlai is also wondering about this whole 'swagger' nonsense, that almost asks for yet another #.
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2020-04-30T10:09:17Z boeg: jackdaniel: in regard to your first sentence, that is correct.
2020-04-30T10:10:04Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: It has nothing to do with HTML
2020-04-30T10:10:12Z Shinmera: ah fuck, was scrolled up
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2020-04-30T10:12:34Z jackdaniel: I like to think that other sentences were also correct ;)
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2020-04-30T10:14:13Z marcoxa: Hi
2020-04-30T10:16:07Z beach: Hello marcoxa.
2020-04-30T10:18:05Z beach: marcoxa: It looks like you are fairly new here.  What brings you to #lisp?
2020-04-30T10:18:44Z marcoxa: The question is what brings me to IRC.  I have been doing Lisp for a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery long time.
2020-04-30T10:20:35Z beach: Great!  Are you looking for a project to work on?  I have plenty of suggestions.
2020-04-30T10:21:21Z beach: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2020-04-30T10:21:43Z phoe: helloooo
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2020-04-30T10:23:21Z jackdaniel: beach: marcoxa presented the proposal for unifying float handling in common lisp implementations, I'm sure he has also other projects going on based on looking at CDR's
2020-04-30T10:23:34Z marcoxa: beach I haveplenty of suggestions :)
2020-04-30T10:23:41Z beach: Got it.
2020-04-30T10:23:51Z marcoxa: :)
2020-04-30T10:24:09Z phoe: oooh, it's you! hello, glad to have you around
2020-04-30T10:24:23Z beach: Oh, you are Marco Antoniotti?
2020-04-30T10:24:43Z jackdaniel tried to communicate that without spelling out names :)
2020-04-30T10:25:05Z aeth: What would unified float handling be? IEEE short-, single-, and double-float? And then what for long-float? Or am I way off?
2020-04-30T10:25:32Z jackdaniel: aeth: more like: what should happen when you add 1.0 to nan
2020-04-30T10:25:34Z Shinmera: I see someone didn't attend ELS
2020-04-30T10:25:39Z marcoxa: Yep.  I figured out that by not hanging out here I was missing out a lot.  So I am exploiting a lull in my day job and using ERC to lounge around.
2020-04-30T10:25:39Z phoe: ^
2020-04-30T10:25:53Z aeth: jackdaniel: ah
2020-04-30T10:26:07Z beach: marcoxa: You are right about the missing-out part.
2020-04-30T10:26:17Z beach: I keep telling Didier Verna and Jim Newton that.
2020-04-30T10:26:31Z marcoxa: Yep.
2020-04-30T10:26:34Z no-defun-allowed: Shinmera: Indeed it does not.
2020-04-30T10:26:38Z White_Flame: what, are you saying comp.lang.lisp isn't the pinnacle of Lisp-oriented discussion?
2020-04-30T10:26:49Z jackdaniel have never joined usenet
2020-04-30T10:27:01Z jackdaniel: but I saw archived emails with plenty of fucks and personal insults
2020-04-30T10:27:05Z White_Flame throws a big "/s" in the air
2020-04-30T10:28:43Z marcoxa: Coming to the LIA Rabbit Hole I spoke about at ELS.  If anybody is interested I can give access to the repository that contains the extremely raough draft of the LIA/CL spec.  Also, now that I got the hang of this thing, I could set up a specialized channel on IRC.  What do you think?
2020-04-30T10:29:41Z jackdaniel: I'd be interested in having access to the repository. at the very least I could make a pull request which adds missing information about ECL.
2020-04-30T10:30:05Z phoe: hmmm, easye would likely want to do the same regarding ABCL
2020-04-30T10:31:37Z jackdaniel: if you want to create a channel, I would suggest making it more general than LIA/CL, i.e #cdr, so other issues common for cl implementers could be discussed there
2020-04-30T10:31:50Z phoe: I would join #cdf
2020-04-30T10:31:54Z phoe: s/cdf/cdr/
2020-04-30T10:34:59Z marcoxa: jackdaniel I think two channels would be in order.  One thing is the CDR discussions, the discussion on the LIA spec is going to be quite detailed and it will require some form of consensu making.  Remember that LW and Franz should come onboard.
2020-04-30T10:35:30Z jackdaniel: my point is that making too many channels would only impact the membership
2020-04-30T10:35:51Z jackdaniel: it is not that people would chat about cdr proposals all day long
2020-04-30T10:35:58Z marcoxa: Sorry guys, I have to leave for a couple of hours.  Our fridge is empty :)  Send me an email if you want access to the repo.
2020-04-30T10:36:09Z phoe: yes, I kinda wonder if there will be enough volume for a separate IRC channel
2020-04-30T10:36:15Z jackdaniel: and your email is? :)
2020-04-30T10:36:19Z phoe: marcoxa: bon appetit and good luck hunting
2020-04-30T10:37:01Z marcoxa: marco dot antoniotti at unimib.it will do.  Ciao
2020-04-30T10:37:12Z jackdaniel: thanks, see you
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2020-04-30T10:38:36Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps this is way too rude, but why the hell do some published libraries (declare (debug 0))? Are they trying to save the last few kilobytes that having lambda lists uses?
2020-04-30T10:39:14Z jackdaniel: having debug information may also influence a performance
2020-04-30T10:39:20Z _death: no-defun-allowed: maybe it's a claim of quality.. the code is perfect, no need for debugging
2020-04-30T10:39:33Z jackdaniel: usually optimization on/off is a function of speed/debug options
2020-04-30T10:40:02Z jackdaniel: i.e ecl pushes debugging frames onto the frame stack when the function is called
2020-04-30T10:40:25Z no-defun-allowed: Well, (debug 1) is the "alternative" here. That doesn't do much more, does it?
2020-04-30T10:40:39Z edgar-rft: no-defun-allowed: (declare (debug 0)) means they are not interested in seeing *your* bugs :-)
2020-04-30T10:40:41Z jackdaniel: well, if you have debug 0, ecl does not push said frames
2020-04-30T10:40:45Z jackdaniel: if you have debug 1, it does!
2020-04-30T10:41:00Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
2020-04-30T10:46:27Z phadthai: a mailing list would likely be better than an irc channel for CDR work (if it doesn't already exist)
2020-04-30T10:46:52Z phoe: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/listinfo/cdr-discuss
2020-04-30T10:47:27Z phadthai: cool
2020-04-30T10:47:44Z phoe: sounds worth reviving in this context
2020-04-30T10:47:46Z phadthai: then I'm unsure what irc would really add, as people are unlikely to be able to meet at the right time
2020-04-30T10:48:41Z phadthai: well, maybe still a good thing to have
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2020-04-30T11:50:08Z jmercouris: any reason why slime is instantly disconnecting from swank?
2020-04-30T11:50:35Z phoe: jmercouris: what does the inferior-lisp buffer say?
2020-04-30T11:50:50Z jmercouris: I do not have an inferior lisp buffer, i am starting swank in a separate image
2020-04-30T11:50:57Z jmercouris: not starting it via slime
2020-04-30T11:51:07Z phoe: what does the terminal output of that separate image say?
2020-04-30T11:51:17Z jmercouris: I will launch it via terminal and tell you
2020-04-30T11:51:19Z jmercouris: one moment please
2020-04-30T11:51:28Z phoe: are there any hints in the emacs' *Messages* buffer?
2020-04-30T11:51:43Z jmercouris: Lisp connection closed unexpectedly: connection broken by remote peer when I kill the image
2020-04-30T11:51:58Z jmercouris: one second I'll start clean
2020-04-30T11:52:24Z jmercouris: so, terminal says: <INFO> [13:52:17] "Swank server started at port 4006"
2020-04-30T11:52:31Z jmercouris: and; ;; Swank started at port: 4006.
2020-04-30T11:52:34Z jmercouris: which makes sense so far
2020-04-30T11:52:58Z jmercouris: then it says the following after I connect http://dpaste.com/3NW53X4
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2020-04-30T11:53:07Z phoe: that sounds good
2020-04-30T11:53:23Z jmercouris: then the following
2020-04-30T11:54:15Z jmercouris: messages show Connected. Are we consing yet?
2020-04-30T11:54:21Z jmercouris: then i will try something llike (print "lol")
2020-04-30T11:54:34Z jmercouris: and instantly : slime-connection: Connection closed.
2020-04-30T11:54:44Z jmercouris: in *Messages*
2020-04-30T11:54:56Z jmercouris: terminal reports no more output for the lisp image
2020-04-30T11:55:28Z phoe: huh, no idea
2020-04-30T11:55:41Z jmercouris: here is my sbclrc http://dpaste.com/2WDCTSS
2020-04-30T11:55:58Z phoe: should work
2020-04-30T11:56:10Z jmercouris: this is the only line in my .swank.lisp (setf swank:*globally-redirect-io* t)
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2020-04-30T11:56:26Z jmercouris: this is my settings for Lisp in Emacs http://dpaste.com/3K2QJY6
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2020-04-30T11:57:11Z jmercouris: it was working yesterday
2020-04-30T11:57:16Z jmercouris: literally nothing changed
2020-04-30T11:57:36Z phoe: did you restart emacs?
2020-04-30T11:57:39Z jmercouris: yes
2020-04-30T11:57:54Z jmercouris: maybe I should try a -q
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2020-04-30T11:58:15Z phoe: I'm puzzled
2020-04-30T11:59:09Z jmercouris: as am I
2020-04-30T11:59:12Z jmercouris: because normal slime works
2020-04-30T11:59:22Z jmercouris: no wait
2020-04-30T11:59:24Z jmercouris: I take that back
2020-04-30T11:59:27Z jmercouris: normal slime crashes instantly
2020-04-30T11:59:27Z jmercouris: WHAT
2020-04-30T11:59:58Z jmercouris: I have a slime events buffer
2020-04-30T12:00:08Z jmercouris: does this give you an idea: http://dpaste.com/0SHH4WF
2020-04-30T12:00:08Z jmercouris: ?
2020-04-30T12:01:04Z phoe: nope, no idea yet.
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2020-04-30T12:02:32Z jmercouris: WAS
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2020-04-30T12:03:01Z jmercouris: do you think emptying my cache would help?
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2020-04-30T12:10:45Z Grue`: jmercouris: try (setf sb-impl::*default-external-format* :utf-8) in .sbclrc
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2020-04-30T12:12:56Z jmercouris: phoe: it was one of the slime contribs acting up for some reason
2020-04-30T12:13:04Z phoe: jmercouris: oh! which one?
2020-04-30T12:13:05Z jmercouris: phoe: I haven't figured out which one, i'll figure it out later
2020-04-30T12:13:09Z phoe: OK
2020-04-30T12:13:14Z jmercouris: i just removed them for now, i have work to do
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2020-04-30T13:36:44Z jmercouris: I'm working with cl-cffi-gtk and I'm having a small issue
2020-04-30T13:36:48Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/040KR1M
2020-04-30T13:37:02Z jmercouris: not sure why it is not able to properly transform the g-error from a signal
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2020-04-30T13:37:39Z jmercouris: here's the signal: https://webkitgtk.org/reference/webkit2gtk/stable/WebKitWebView.html#WebKitWebView-load-failed
2020-04-30T13:38:01Z jmercouris: and here is my code, very simple: http://dpaste.com/22EGG97
2020-04-30T13:38:07Z jmercouris: so this is probably a bug in cl-cffi-gtk...
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2020-04-30T14:05:07Z flip214: beach: just stumbled upon a Naggum post that referenced you, and found https://dept-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr/~strandh/Teaching/MTP/Common/Strandh-Tutorial/psychology.html. JFI I get SSL warnings for that site, not that it matters much.
2020-04-30T14:07:43Z beach: Use the metamodular version instead.
2020-04-30T14:08:16Z beach: http://metamodular.com/Essays/psychology.html
2020-04-30T14:08:48Z beach: I had no idea that Naggum ever referred to me.  I didn't even know he had ever heard of me.
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2020-04-30T14:11:21Z flip214: beach: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3218108061814659@naggum.net.html
2020-04-30T14:11:50Z flip214: not directly, but that link came up in one of his replies
2020-04-30T14:12:16Z beach: Oh, I guess I even had some exchanges with him.
2020-04-30T14:12:25Z adlai wonders how long you gotta incubate an ulcer until it begins to tell you who's got good ideas
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2020-04-30T14:13:58Z beach: adlai: What would the "ulcer" be in this case?
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2020-04-30T14:30:23Z adlai: unless i've been suffering from pervasive disinformation, Erik Naggum died of worrying too much about how to educate people to pick up his mantle after he was gone
2020-04-30T14:30:54Z beach: Oh, I see.
2020-04-30T14:31:01Z Bike: well, he died of ulcerative collitis, which is pretty nasty
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2020-04-30T14:47:44Z _death: the treatment of UC inflammations can be very nasty as well
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2020-04-30T15:01:54Z theseb: I asked yesterday why macros must be defined in the toplevel.....but couldn't you define them anywhere and form a closure?  i.e. just save the local environment with the macros and drag it around?
2020-04-30T15:02:01Z phoe: theseb: you can
2020-04-30T15:02:07Z theseb: phoe: oh good
2020-04-30T15:02:09Z theseb: thanks
2020-04-30T15:02:20Z phoe: that's a unique way of using them though
2020-04-30T15:02:28Z phoe: not many people do that
2020-04-30T15:03:06Z jdz: After all, a macro is just a function.
2020-04-30T15:03:58Z beach: theseb: For example (let ((x 0)) (defmacro m () (incf x)))
2020-04-30T15:04:14Z beach: theseb: (list (m) (m) (m)) => (1 2 3)
2020-04-30T15:04:52Z theseb: phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss104_w.htm says "Compilers, for example, may not recognize these forms
2020-04-30T15:04:52Z theseb: properly in other than top-level contexts".  At least one implementation
2020-04-30T15:04:52Z theseb: has interpreted this to mean that it is permissible to simply refuse
2020-04-30T15:04:52Z theseb: to compile defining macros that do not appear at top-level"
2020-04-30T15:05:44Z beach: theseb: The file compiler is limited in what it can represent in a FASL file, so there are limitations.
2020-04-30T15:05:59Z phoe: theseb: issues aren't a normative part of the standard. This text relates to pre-ANSI CL Lisp implementations.
2020-04-30T15:06:48Z phoe: this issue, also, explicitly permits for macros to be defined not in toplevel; see the "Proposal" part.
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2020-04-30T15:08:54Z Bike: it's a quotation from Common Lisp the Language, even, which is definitely not normative
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2020-04-30T16:23:40Z pjb: theseb: this is worse than what beach shown.  (list (m) (m) (m)) could also return (2 4 6) or (12 7 2) or whatever actually.
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2020-04-30T16:24:25Z pjb: AFAICR, there's no left-to-right order of macroexpansion enforced.  What's sure, is that a macro can be expanded more than once.  Therefore the state of a macro that mutates state can be very different from what you would expect.
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2020-04-30T18:37:21Z theseb: If a lisp uses environments, instead of having a single variable lookup table, does that alone immediately imply it is lexically scoped?
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2020-04-30T18:42:37Z decent-username: Can anyone even come up with a use case, where a having side effects during expansion is actually useful?
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2020-04-30T18:45:36Z Bike: quicklisp prints a dot whenever an expansion occurs while it's loading something. cheap progress note.
2020-04-30T18:46:04Z LdBeth: it might be useful to communicate with other macros so further macro expends of subexps can be controlled
2020-04-30T18:46:54Z theseb: oh wait....n/m....you have environments w/ dynamic scope too
2020-04-30T18:47:04Z Bike: you can do that with symbol-macrolet and stuff
2020-04-30T18:49:22Z buffergn0me: decent-username: https://oneofus.la/have-emacs-will-hack/2008-11-09-compile-time-intra-application-uri-link-checking.html
2020-04-30T18:49:46Z buffergn0me: Side-effects during macroexpansion are extremely useful for all kinds of compile-time checks
2020-04-30T18:51:23Z Bike: this pushnew's conses but with the default eql test, so it'll push teh same list on multiple times
2020-04-30T18:54:25Z buffergn0me: Bike: You are right. I need to fix that
2020-04-30T18:54:56Z _death: can be useful in debugging
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2020-04-30T19:05:06Z tinga: Are intrusive lists something one sometimes uses in Common Lisp? A possible advantage (aside of saving an indirection / separate allocation) is that data items still have all of their methods directly, but implicitly know their parent (and/or child).
2020-04-30T19:05:26Z Bike: what's an intrusive list
2020-04-30T19:05:51Z tinga: A list whose cells are stored inside of another data structure.
2020-04-30T19:06:35Z tinga: Instead of (cons (foo 1) (cons (foo 2) nil)) you'd create the list as (foo 1 (foo 2 nil))
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2020-04-30T19:07:08Z Bike: oh, sure, people do that sometimes. only example i can think of is the dynamic environments in sicl, though i think beach changed that
2020-04-30T19:07:17Z tinga: (This is done very commonly in C, e.g. in the Linux Kernel.)
2020-04-30T19:08:07Z Bike: probably because if you don't have dynamic typing, a general list is more annoying to deal with
2020-04-30T19:08:49Z tinga: Or equally annoying, whereas intrusive lists are more efficient.
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2020-04-30T19:09:35Z tinga: But I'm not really coming from the efficiency angle, but from an angle where you want to know the parent of an item while handling the item, so you don't have the surrounding cons to get to the parent;
2020-04-30T19:09:58Z tinga: and if I'd pass around the cons cell instead, it's annoying to extract the actual record each time I want to access it.
2020-04-30T19:10:16Z pjb: the big difference is that an element can belong only to one intrusive list, but it can belong to several lists.
2020-04-30T19:10:25Z tinga: Yep, sure.
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2020-04-30T19:12:33Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1790#1790
2020-04-30T19:12:38Z phoe: does this annoy no one else
2020-04-30T19:13:15Z _death: what about "Switching to the BALLAND2006 optimizer"
2020-04-30T19:13:22Z phoe: that too
2020-04-30T19:13:44Z phoe: I've made issues on both cxml and closure-common and they didn't get any response so far
2020-04-30T19:13:52Z Bike: is it loading twice?
2020-04-30T19:13:56Z phoe: nope
2020-04-30T19:13:59Z _death: or asdf warnings giving advice to the maintainer of cl-ppcre
2020-04-30T19:14:00Z phoe: two different systems
2020-04-30T19:14:04Z phoe: that too
2020-04-30T19:14:15Z _death: that's life
2020-04-30T19:14:44Z phoe: no, that's compile-time printing to *standard-output*
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2020-04-30T19:23:23Z Bike: probably a good time for a compiler note, come think
2020-04-30T19:24:01Z phoe: we don't have no compiler notes in standard though
2020-04-30T19:24:05Z phoe: and no trivial-compiler-note either
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2020-04-30T19:34:52Z phoe: .......closure-common seems to have absolutely no tests whatsoever
2020-04-30T19:34:54Z phoe: aaaaaagh
2020-04-30T19:35:12Z Grue`: I never noticed the "yes, using code points" part before and now I won't be able to unsee it, thanks
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2020-04-30T19:37:49Z phoe: huh
2020-04-30T19:37:58Z phoe: I just learned a beautiful hack while reading closure source code
2020-04-30T19:38:05Z phoe: (defun rt-white-space-p (char) (let ((stream (make-string-input-stream (string char)))) (eq :eof (peek-char t stream nil :eof))))
2020-04-30T19:38:47Z Bike: there should really be a way to get the syntax type of a character.
2020-04-30T19:39:12Z phoe adds it to the ideas-for-cltl4 bucket
2020-04-30T19:39:46Z Bike: it's in eclector, at least
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2020-04-30T19:44:01Z Grue`: (rt-white-space-p #\IDEOGRAPHIC_SPACE) => nil
2020-04-30T19:44:48Z phoe: haha
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2020-04-30T19:45:47Z Bike: and if you try (read-from-string (format nil "A~cA" #\IDEOGRAPHIC_SPACE)), you will get one symbol with a three character name
2020-04-30T19:46:41Z Bike: so the function is consistent with the implementation. implementation might not be consistent with japanese, though.
2020-04-30T19:47:24Z Grue`: given it's a html parser, i think this method might be detecting for actual whitespace in html files, in which case the implementation is wrong
2020-04-30T19:48:08Z Grue`: for unicode definition of whitespace, this test works: (cl-unicode:has-property char "WhiteSpace")
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2020-04-30T19:48:46Z phoe: should closure-common depend on cl-unicode?
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2020-04-30T19:53:05Z _death: is this the only case where it could use cl-unicode?
2020-04-30T19:53:47Z phoe: I honestly have no idea
2020-04-30T19:54:07Z phoe: I'm munching on its rune reading/writing logic
2020-04-30T19:54:28Z _death: many times introducing a dependency is overkill.. instead you can make it easy for the user to make the connection
2020-04-30T19:55:55Z phoe: yes, to make a toggle easy if cl-unicode is present
2020-04-30T19:57:18Z _death: maybe with a protocol or a function argument or a special.. extensibility as usual
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2020-04-30T20:01:51Z Grue`: what is even closure-common? if it depends on cl-ppcre or cl-interpol like most things do, it already depends on cl-unicode
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2020-04-30T20:04:46Z _death: oh
2020-04-30T20:06:17Z phoe: Grue`: some code for the old closure browser
2020-04-30T20:06:32Z phoe: and no, it doesn't depend on them
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2020-04-30T20:47:14Z scymtym: phoe: it is also for needed for cxml and xpath if i'm not mistaken
2020-04-30T20:47:43Z phoe: scymtym: yes
2020-04-30T20:47:56Z scymtym: (and i saw your issues but didn't have time (or a good solution) for a proper response)
2020-04-30T20:48:09Z phoe: yes, I guessed something like that; no problem
2020-04-30T20:49:35Z scymtym: huh, i seem to remember fixing SIMPLE-ROD at least once
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2020-04-30T20:54:51Z scymtym: i don't remember how i was involved, but that instance was https://github.com/sharplispers/closure-common/commit/e3c5f5f454b72b01b89115e581c3c52a7e201e5c . closure-common is two steps ahead though and defines SIMPLE-ROD two more times
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2020-04-30T20:56:05Z phoe: ...huh, how, why
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2020-04-30T20:56:37Z phoe: twice in package :runes, once in :utf8-runes
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2020-04-30T20:58:13Z phoe: nope, not touching that today
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2020-04-30T22:08:24Z theseb: newb closure question...since closures are "functions + environments"......does EVERY language with lexical scoping and regular functions have closures?
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2020-04-30T22:09:47Z aeth: probably not, it needs to be built into the language
2020-04-30T22:09:56Z aeth: Closures allocate.
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2020-04-30T22:35:03Z theseb: aeth: ok thanks
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