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I "set up" the back-end (take that lightly, I just followed an example video I found online) that was using the ningle and clack packages for running it 2020-03-01T01:08:55Z z147 quit (Quit: z147) 2020-03-01T01:12:13Z matzy_: now i work as a full-stack developer, so i'm obviously familiar with how they work, but my experience with common lisp is limited to working through about 2/3rd's of PCL, I figured I'd learn the rest as I went along. Basically all I want my API to do is create routes the front-end can hit, interact with a sql database, do any data manipulation (if 2020-03-01T01:12:13Z matzy_: necessary) and then send json back to the front-end. I don't want the API sending templates themselves or anything like that back, jjst straight json 2020-03-01T01:12:22Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2-dev) 2020-03-01T01:13:02Z matzy_: with that in mind, am i using the right CL tools for the API, or is there something better suited for that/something else I will need that I'm not thinking of now? 2020-03-01T01:18:17Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T01:19:54Z matzy_: oh yeah, i'm also an emacs user (like 90% of people here I'm sure) and roll my own 2500+ line config that I wrote myself, so maybe that adds a tad bit to my cl experience (I know obviously they are separate languages, but I think I read once that elisp was "inspired" or something by common-lisp, so there's more similarity there than between, say, 2020-03-01T01:19:54Z matzy_: elisp and scheme 2020-03-01T01:23:07Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-01T01:23:23Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-01T01:24:20Z libertyprime quit (Read error: No route to host) 2020-03-01T01:27:47Z dumbintel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T01:28:19Z _death: matzy_: sure, that setup could work.. personally I use hunchentoot + a few operators to create "json handlers".. there are other libraries, like https://github.com/joaotavora/snooze 2020-03-01T01:29:57Z Jesin joined #lisp 2020-03-01T01:30:21Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-03-01T01:35:04Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-01T01:36:14Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2020-03-01T01:36:15Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-01T01:38:56Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-01T01:42:07Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-01T01:42:23Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-03-01T01:45:49Z libertyprime quit (Read error: No route to host) 2020-03-01T01:47:01Z matzy_: _death I've heard a few people comment (when researching this and reading other forum posts) that why not just use huchentoot, and from the readme and diving into their site, it seems the only downside (if it even is one) is that it does not support all of portable common lisp, whatever the heck that is. from googling all i see is that it's a 2020-03-01T01:47:01Z matzy_: non-emacs interactive lisp IDE. is that correct? 2020-03-01T01:49:04Z _death: no.. hunchentoot is an http server 2020-03-01T01:49:20Z _death: https://edicl.github.io/hunchentoot/ 2020-03-01T01:49:49Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-03-01T01:51:14Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-03-01T01:52:35Z gko_ joined #lisp 2020-03-01T01:54:52Z matzy_: right, so what is portable common lisp and why does it not support it? "Therefore, it cannot be implemented completely in portable Common Lisp." 2020-03-01T01:55:12Z _death: the documentation conflates portable and standard 2020-03-01T01:56:03Z pjb: matzy_: I don't know what portable CL is. There's conforming CL code. It's code that will run the same on all conforming implementations of CL. 2020-03-01T01:56:31Z pjb: matzy_: it's not possible to write a web server in conforming CL code, because the CL standard doesn't specify anything about sockets. 2020-03-01T01:56:52Z _death: the Common Lisp standard does not cover sockets or threads, but there are libraries that expose such functionality through use of implementation-specific operators 2020-03-01T01:57:41Z pjb: matzy_: there's also the problem of encoding, which the web server would have to deal with itself, instead of relying on CL :external-format, since the values for the later are implementation dependent. 2020-03-01T01:57:59Z _death: using these libraries, you can give better chance for your own code to be portable across the various implementations 2020-03-01T01:58:03Z pjb: matzy_: but apart from listening to the internet and connecting to clients, all the rest of a web server could be written in conforming CL code. 2020-03-01T01:59:14Z pjb: matzy_: the use of those "portability" libraries means that your code can be conforming, relying on those portability libraries to be portable to different implementations, to use those implementation specific features and extensions in a portable way. 2020-03-01T01:59:50Z pjb: matzy_: saying that your code is not portable, is saying that it uses some specific implementation, implementation-specific feature. 2020-03-01T02:00:06Z pjb: matzy_: some people write in sbcl, not in CL. (They use #sbcl, instead of #lisp). 2020-03-01T02:00:26Z wxie1 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T02:01:39Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-01T02:01:40Z wxie1 is now known as wxie 2020-03-01T02:01:51Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-01T02:02:08Z _death: since hunchentoot uses such libraries (e.g., usocket and bordeaux-threads) it works on all important Common Lisp implementations today 2020-03-01T02:03:41Z _death: here you can see a portability report for some libraries: https://shinmera.github.io/portability/ 2020-03-01T02:04:14Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T02:04:45Z hsaziz joined #lisp 2020-03-01T02:06:16Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-01T02:07:05Z libertyprime quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-01T02:09:11Z hsaziz quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-01T02:10:09Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-01T02:13:00Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-03-01T02:13:50Z vms14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T02:14:09Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-01T02:28:35Z libertyprime quit (Read error: No route to host) 2020-03-01T02:30:27Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-01T02:33:50Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-03-01T02:47:49Z caltelt joined #lisp 2020-03-01T02:50:46Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-01T02:51:21Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-01T02:53:02Z libertyprime quit (Read error: No route to host) 2020-03-01T02:54:06Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-01T02:58:46Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-03-01T03:08:35Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2020-03-01T03:08:35Z nullniverse quit (Changing host) 2020-03-01T03:08:35Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2020-03-01T03:14:13Z libertyprime quit (Read error: No route to host) 2020-03-01T03:19:10Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T03:19:40Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-03-01T03:23:11Z matzy_: pjb thanks for sharing all this with me. the last part kinda blew my mind. i write in sbcl and NOT lisp? 2020-03-01T03:23:46Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T03:25:36Z matzy_: i assumed they were all just different flavors of the same language....i do, however, get everything you were talkimw=a=f=fawwww 2020-03-01T03:28:29Z matzy_: (cat jumped on the keyboard) get everything you were talking about regarding portability though, makes perfect sense. and why huchentoot is so commonly suggested. i'm on sbcl like most noobs 2020-03-01T03:29:20Z libertyprime quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-01T03:31:32Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T03:36:25Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-01T03:54:11Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-01T04:02:45Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-01T04:02:58Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-01T04:06:23Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T04:09:13Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-01T04:15:01Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-01T04:16:25Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-01T04:17:25Z wxie quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-01T04:18:05Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-01T04:23:59Z caltelt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-01T04:28:10Z krid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-01T04:29:26Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T04:30:52Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-01T04:33:19Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-01T04:33:19Z wxie1 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T04:34:36Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-03-01T04:35:39Z slyrus__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-01T04:36:06Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T04:36:07Z wxie1 is now known as wxie 2020-03-01T04:37:04Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-03-01T04:37:59Z nicdev quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-01T04:40:30Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-03-01T04:43:42Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-01T04:43:49Z wxie1 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T04:44:05Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-01T04:44:19Z wxie1 is now known as wxie 2020-03-01T04:54:57Z akoana left #lisp 2020-03-01T04:55:30Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-03-01T05:00:43Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-03-01T05:02:29Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-01T05:07:41Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-03-01T05:10:47Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-01T05:14:55Z matzy_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-01T05:33:42Z Lord_of_Life quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-01T05:36:30Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-03-01T05:43:44Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T05:53:04Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-01T06:04:47Z ebzzry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-01T06:06:27Z leonrwood joined #lisp 2020-03-01T06:07:29Z libertyprime quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T06:10:20Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-01T06:12:38Z |Pirx| quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-01T06:13:15Z leonrwood quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 2020-03-01T06:16:01Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-01T06:19:34Z chipolux quit (Quit: chipolux) 2020-03-01T06:20:02Z chipolux joined #lisp 2020-03-01T06:21:29Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-01T06:24:53Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-01T06:25:12Z mrcom quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2020-03-01T06:28:52Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T06:35:40Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T06:39:45Z mrcom joined #lisp 2020-03-01T06:40:52Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-01T06:46:34Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-01T07:02:35Z ebrasca: beach: Morning 2020-03-01T07:02:44Z ebrasca: Morning! 2020-03-01T07:02:51Z beach: Hello ebrasca. 2020-03-01T07:12:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T07:14:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-01T07:16:44Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T07:20:49Z ebrasca: beach: How are you doing? Are you in some beach? 2020-03-01T07:23:42Z beach: I am making slow but steady progress on code generation. But I am also a member of the ELS program committee, so I need to start the referee process soon, probably tomorrow. I am not on a beach, no. 2020-03-01T07:23:47Z beach: ebrasca: What about you? 2020-03-01T07:27:23Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-01T07:32:41Z ebrasca: beach: I am fine, I don't think I can go to ELS. 2020-03-01T07:33:31Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T07:38:07Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-01T07:41:14Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-01T07:41:40Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-01T07:42:26Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T07:42:34Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-03-01T07:48:09Z beach: ebrasca: Sorry to hear that you can't go. 2020-03-01T08:05:56Z ulrivo joined #lisp 2020-03-01T08:07:20Z ulrivo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T08:08:35Z ulrivo joined #lisp 2020-03-01T08:09:00Z ulrivo quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-01T08:10:05Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2020-03-01T08:11:49Z ulrivo joined #lisp 2020-03-01T08:12:32Z ulrivo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T08:13:05Z ulrivo joined #lisp 2020-03-01T08:15:52Z ulrivo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T08:26:27Z ulrivo joined #lisp 2020-03-01T08:30:46Z ulrivo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T08:35:01Z KDr23 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T08:36:34Z KDr22 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-01T08:39:46Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T08:56:27Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-01T08:58:47Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-03-01T09:07:51Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-01T09:16:42Z gko_ joined #lisp 2020-03-01T09:21:08Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T09:29:45Z sz0 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T09:29:57Z knicklux joined #lisp 2020-03-01T09:31:20Z makomo joined #lisp 2020-03-01T09:31:54Z makomo quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-01T09:34:02Z makomo joined #lisp 2020-03-01T09:34:17Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T09:35:41Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-01T09:38:59Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-01T09:42:27Z frodef joined #lisp 2020-03-01T09:46:52Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-01T09:48:51Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4) 2020-03-01T09:55:55Z gareppa joined #lisp 2020-03-01T09:56:14Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T10:04:10Z random-nick: is there a standard-defined way to do arithmetic with overflowing? 2020-03-01T10:04:37Z no-defun-allowed: What do you want to happen on overflow? 2020-03-01T10:04:54Z random-nick: well like in x86 2020-03-01T10:05:09Z random-nick: the overflowed bits get truncated 2020-03-01T10:05:38Z random-nick: I could use CL:LDB but I was wondering if there was another way 2020-03-01T10:06:13Z lukego: good day gentlepeople 2020-03-01T10:06:26Z beach: Hello lukego. 2020-03-01T10:06:38Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL can optimise arithmetic in LDB to do word or byte-wise arithmetic, from memory. 2020-03-01T10:07:04Z lukego: How are you, beach? 2020-03-01T10:07:31Z beach: lukego: Busy as usual. Working on code generation. What about you? 2020-03-01T10:08:47Z Shinmera: random-nick: There is not. 2020-03-01T10:09:12Z lukego: Having a lazy sunday morning fantasizing about doing some Lisp hacking again. I got my installation of sbcl/quicklisp/etc with Nix "just so" so I'm running out of excuses to not write some actual code :) 2020-03-01T10:09:33Z Shinmera: random-nick: If you LOGAND with a mask, SBCL for instance can recognise that you're truncating and optimise it. 2020-03-01T10:10:07Z beach: lukego: Go for it! 2020-03-01T10:10:08Z Shinmera is busy doing marketing for his Lisp game 2020-03-01T10:10:33Z jackdaniel encourages Shinmera to tell us more about it 2020-03-01T10:10:34Z lukego: actually, *really* out of excuses, I noticed now that the last time I sat down to tinker with Lisp I even got org-babel up and running with SLIME :) 2020-03-01T10:10:47Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I will once I'm done writing up this article! :) 2020-03-01T10:11:00Z jackdaniel: does it have a story? 2020-03-01T10:11:02Z lukego: (amazing what great shape the lisp ecosystem is in these days!) 2020-03-01T10:11:15Z jackdaniel likes only games with a good narrative 2020-03-01T10:11:26Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Yes, it is narrative-focused. 2020-03-01T10:11:32Z jackdaniel: \o/ 2020-03-01T10:11:35Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, SBCL prefers to compile the example (defun f (x) (declare (fixnum x)) (logand #xff (+ x 42))) using boxed fixnum addition and an AND instruction to truncate the value. 2020-03-01T10:12:45Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: you need to declare it as an UB-8. 2020-03-01T10:13:18Z Shinmera: or any form of ub that's "good" 2020-03-01T10:13:22Z Shinmera: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Modular-arithmetic 2020-03-01T10:13:26Z lukego: beach: Indeed I shall. I decided that I'll take a detour in life and learn to do electronics, ultimately trying to emulate Marc Battyani, and first step seems to be designing a PCB. In principle I should learn how to use the Kicad GUI for this but it actually seems like doing the schematic design in a custom SEXP notation is pretty sensible low-NIH approach. 2020-03-01T10:13:55Z lukego: I don't suppose anybody happens to have already done a PCB schematics DSL in CL that's worth checking out first? 2020-03-01T10:14:13Z beach: Not me, but that would be a good thing to have. 2020-03-01T10:14:42Z jackdaniel: I know someone who have worked on CL-based DSL -> verilog transpiler 2020-03-01T10:14:47Z jackdaniel: but afaik it is not open soruce 2020-03-01T10:14:49Z jackdaniel: source* 2020-03-01T10:15:29Z lukego: jackdaniel: neat. that'll be my next step. first I wanna make my own custom FPGA dev board to program. 2020-03-01T10:22:53Z madmuppet006 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T10:27:01Z dale quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep) 2020-03-01T10:38:48Z eta quit (Quit: Gateway shutdown) 2020-03-01T10:41:16Z eta joined #lisp 2020-03-01T10:45:58Z aeth: random-nick: I usually just do MOD of a power of 2 2020-03-01T10:56:19Z lukego: Huh... Turns out that Kicad's internal data format for schematics export is already S-expressions... I'm taking that as a good omen. 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I see: https://github.com/kisom/cl-feedparse 2020-03-01T11:59:36Z jmercouris: but it appears incomplete 2020-03-01T12:00:00Z jmercouris: I also see: https://github.com/ruricolist/cl-feedparser 2020-03-01T12:00:04Z TanKian joined #lisp 2020-03-01T12:00:07Z antoszka: That's usually the case with CL libraries ;) 2020-03-01T12:00:44Z antoszka: They were almost-good-enough for whatever purpose the author wrote them abandoned them. 2020-03-01T12:00:46Z jmercouris: no, it is not :-) 2020-03-01T12:00:50Z antoszka: haha :) 2020-03-01T12:01:29Z antoszka: Well, I *do* love many libraries and some are just pure beauty, but unfortunately this seems to be truth about the majority :) 2020-03-01T12:02:52Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-01T12:03:14Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T12:07:07Z luni joined #lisp 2020-03-01T12:11:40Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-01T12:11:46Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T12:14:24Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-01T12:20:13Z luni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T12:20:41Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-01T12:20:58Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-01T12:26:47Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-03-01T12:32:41Z eeeeeta quit (Quit: wolp) 2020-03-01T12:32:47Z eta is now known as eeeeeta 2020-03-01T12:33:05Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-01T12:33:06Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T12:33:58Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-01T12:36:58Z theBlackDragon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T12:37:15Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-01T12:41:53Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T12:42:39Z TanKian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T12:43:05Z Shinmera: Alright, here's a lengthy article about my lisp game project: https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/381 2020-03-01T12:43:10Z Shinmera: Fresh off the presses! 2020-03-01T12:45:32Z kanru joined #lisp 2020-03-01T12:48:06Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-01T12:49:07Z TanKian joined #lisp 2020-03-01T12:49:08Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-01T12:50:56Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-01T12:53:48Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-03-01T12:58:41Z TanKian quit (Quit: TanKian) 2020-03-01T12:59:41Z TanKian_ joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:02:49Z frodef joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:03:15Z TanKian_ quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-01T13:03:52Z TanKian joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:04:47Z TanKian_ joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:06:26Z TanKian quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-01T13:09:42Z TanKian_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-01T13:11:44Z igemnace joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:16:03Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:18:06Z scymtym: Shinmera: nice. i hope it goes well 2020-03-01T13:18:39Z Shinmera: Thanks, me too! :) 2020-03-01T13:20:10Z APic joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:23:34Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:24:35Z TanKian joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:28:19Z admich joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:32:51Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:34:14Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:36:10Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:37:31Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:40:03Z TanKian quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-01T13:40:46Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T13:42:15Z hsaziz joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:47:32Z red-dot joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:47:57Z stepnem_ joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:48:11Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-01T13:50:18Z __vlgvrs joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:52:02Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T13:52:09Z lucasb joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:52:38Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2020-03-01T13:53:48Z lukego: hey what's SBCL lingo for EXT:REQUIRED-ARGUMENT? 2020-03-01T13:54:09Z phoe: lukego: what does it do? 2020-03-01T13:54:12Z Bike: what is ext:required-argument 2020-03-01T13:54:21Z phoe: I know of alexandria:required-argument that is named the same but might not do the same thing 2020-03-01T13:54:36Z lukego: I'm dating myself... in CMUCL that's the default value you specify for defstruct slots that need to be initialized at construction time 2020-03-01T13:54:59Z lukego: phoe: Thanks I'll check Alexandria 2020-03-01T13:55:01Z phoe: alexandria:required-argument it is then 2020-03-01T13:55:06Z Shinmera: lukego: I just explicitly define a constructor for the struct. 2020-03-01T13:55:21Z Shinmera: that way the argument can be a required one instead of a karg 2020-03-01T13:55:26Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-01T13:56:37Z lukego: ok... I don't remember why I always used that in the past... possibly something about making the compiler happy when specifying a slot-type that isn't (OR NULL ...) and wanting to be clear that it won't be initialized with a wrongly-typed default value... 2020-03-01T13:57:29Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-01T13:58:46Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T13:59:30Z _death: a plain (error ...) is also ok 2020-03-01T13:59:35Z Shinmera: if I remember correctly if it's required in the constructor the default in the slot can be whatever 2020-03-01T13:59:45Z TanKian joined #lisp 2020-03-01T14:00:26Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T14:00:57Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-01T14:04:51Z lukego: _death: yeah. alexandria:required-arg is just an (error ...) and maybe it's so in CMUCL too. 2020-03-01T14:05:13Z lukego: (The real scandal here is that I didn't have alexandria loaded and so didn't see it with my apropos search. Sorted now!) 2020-03-01T14:05:40Z TanKian quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-01T14:06:56Z _death: I guess a more elaborate version could be require-arg-of-type that sets up a use-value restart 2020-03-01T14:08:18Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-03-01T14:09:53Z lukego: seriously, the Lisp ecosystem is in amazing shape these days, everything just works. wow. :) 2020-03-01T14:10:03Z fanta1 quit (Quit: fanta1) 2020-03-01T14:10:18Z Shinmera wishes the "everything" extended to his own projects 2020-03-01T14:10:42Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T14:11:19Z lukego: great job everybody :) 2020-03-01T14:12:18Z Shinmera: Currently trying to figure out why my game just opens and closes on MacOS without an error or anything, as if it had just closed naturally. 2020-03-01T14:14:58Z hsaziz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-01T14:23:50Z TanKian joined #lisp 2020-03-01T14:25:57Z luni joined #lisp 2020-03-01T14:27:19Z phoe: Is there any way to set the default restart to use in sldb when I press "q"? 2020-03-01T14:32:31Z TanKian quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-01T14:35:16Z luni left #lisp 2020-03-01T14:44:22Z TanKian joined #lisp 2020-03-01T14:47:33Z mangul is now known as shangul 2020-03-01T14:49:06Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T14:54:26Z kanru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T14:55:06Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2020-03-01T14:57:10Z TanKian quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T15:03:49Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-01T15:09:21Z gareppa joined #lisp 2020-03-01T15:15:45Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-03-01T15:18:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-01T15:26:34Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-01T15:26:40Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-01T15:31:06Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-03-01T15:37:01Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T15:38:16Z Bike: phoe: swank:*sldb-quit-restart* 2020-03-01T15:38:26Z Bike: or you could just remap the key 2020-03-01T15:41:21Z phoe: Bike: thanks. 2020-03-01T15:41:53Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-01T15:43:06Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T15:43:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T15:43:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-01T15:44:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T15:45:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-01T15:51:08Z grabarz joined #lisp 2020-03-01T15:53:52Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-03-01T15:57:19Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-01T16:09:35Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-01T16:10:50Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T16:14:39Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T16:15:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-01T16:18:06Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-01T16:19:38Z rj0d left #lisp 2020-03-01T16:24:39Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-03-01T16:27:30Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-03-01T16:27:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-03-01T16:28:12Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-01T16:30:27Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-01T16:41:18Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-01T16:44:33Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-01T16:46:23Z rj0d quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-01T16:46:51Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-01T16:50:03Z rj0d quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-01T16:50:26Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-01T16:50:54Z rj0d quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-01T16:51:11Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-01T16:51:45Z rj0d quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-01T16:53:44Z rwcom2 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T16:54:11Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T16:54:13Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-01T16:54:20Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-01T16:55:19Z rwcom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-01T16:55:19Z rwcom2 is now known as rwcom 2020-03-01T16:58:33Z gareppa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-01T17:02:41Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-01T17:04:29Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2020-03-01T17:06:25Z rj0d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T17:18:51Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-01T17:35:26Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T17:35:53Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-01T17:36:48Z nmunro joined #lisp 2020-03-01T17:37:00Z vms14 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T17:38:00Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T17:41:34Z nmunro: Hi all, first time in here, I'm looking to develop a library for web archiving (it's my day job) and there's not one yet for common lisp that I can find, I have most of the pieces, except gzip decompression, which is a little difficult, since web archives are actually plain text files of concatonated gzip streams, unfortunately the gzip spec says 2020-03-01T17:41:35Z nmunro: that makes a viable compressed file, however decompressing the file makes getting the individual records difficult. Is there a way to read a binary file in plain text mode, getting a series of bytes then decompressing them? 2020-03-01T17:42:26Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T17:42:51Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T17:43:32Z igemnace joined #lisp 2020-03-01T17:45:35Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-01T17:51:15Z luis: nmunro: have you tried using chipz? 2020-03-01T17:51:47Z nmunro: I've looked at it, but maybe I've misunderstood how it works 2020-03-01T17:53:31Z luis: Its 2020-03-01T17:53:35Z nmunro: Typically in other languages the pattern is to seek to a byte offset, read the length of the record and decompress the block 2020-03-01T17:54:12Z nmunro: Without decompressing the file as a whole 2020-03-01T17:54:39Z luis: Its documentation has an example where a an octet stream is opened. And you can seek with serf file-position 2020-03-01T17:54:43Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-01T17:55:07Z luis: Sorry, typing on a touch screen. :-/ 2020-03-01T17:55:27Z luis: Setf, not serf. 2020-03-01T17:56:07Z nmunro: It's ok, I use the file-position function in plain text warc files, and that works, however my issues seems to be opening the file in the first place before decompression can begin, I probably have the wrong element-type 2020-03-01T17:57:01Z chip2n joined #lisp 2020-03-01T17:57:06Z luis: You want '(unsigned-byte 8) 2020-03-01T17:58:38Z nmunro: I tried that, I get an end of file stacktrace 2020-03-01T17:59:56Z nmunro: Which is what made me think there's something strange going on 2020-03-01T18:00:19Z luis: What's the file size and what offset are you setting? 2020-03-01T18:00:32Z luis: (obvious question, I know) 2020-03-01T18:05:36Z nmunro: So, I was seeking to offset 333 and reading 1043 bytes, the file is 3k in size 2020-03-01T18:07:07Z luis: Use a paste service to show us the code. 2020-03-01T18:07:56Z nmunro: Sure :) 2020-03-01T18:08:16Z nmunro: Is there a preferred paste service here, some places have preferred ones 2020-03-01T18:09:07Z phoe: http://plaster.tymoon.eu 2020-03-01T18:09:20Z phoe: it has good common lisp highlighting 2020-03-01T18:09:49Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2020-03-01T18:12:25Z nmunro: So there's some associated file data that's required to make it work, but: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1683#1683 2020-03-01T18:12:57Z nmunro: I'm using the data available from the pywb repo for now: https://github.com/webrecorder/pywb/tree/develop/sample_archive 2020-03-01T18:13:25Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T18:14:13Z nmunro: the example-extra.warc (plain text) works just fine, but the example.warc.gz is where I'm having issues 2020-03-01T18:14:22Z admich quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T18:16:03Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-01T18:16:32Z pjb joined #lisp 2020-03-01T18:16:35Z splittist: nmunro: asdf:system-relative-pathname might be a nicer way of handling your opening defparameters. (I know you don't care at the moment (: ) 2020-03-01T18:16:56Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-01T18:17:12Z nmunro: splittist: I'm relatively new to common lisp, so the suggestion is appreciated :) 2020-03-01T18:19:36Z whiteline_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-01T18:19:57Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-03-01T18:20:29Z frodef joined #lisp 2020-03-01T18:26:16Z luis: nmunro: could the length be the number of bytes after decompression? 2020-03-01T18:27:16Z nmunro: I'm not 100% sure of the data, I'm trusting the pywb data as it's often used as a reference, but it may not be correct 2020-03-01T18:28:01Z nmunro: The way web archiving works is pretty bad in the tooling and the 'standards' don't practically work and have unofficial extensions to just get things to work 2020-03-01T18:29:06Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T18:29:29Z luis: There are some efficiency improvements you could make, like using vectors and read-sequence or even passing the stream directly to chips, but I don't see anything obviously wrong with the reading code itself 2020-03-01T18:30:39Z nmunro: I'd certainly like to know how I could improve using read-sequence, I imagine this is to do with me repeatedly calling read-byte? 2020-03-01T18:31:56Z grabarz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T18:32:12Z nmunro: I'm going to try to generate my own test data and see if that improves anything 2020-03-01T18:32:27Z MichaelRaskin: I guess alexandria:read-file-into-byte-vector could be a faster way 2020-03-01T18:33:53Z grabarz joined #lisp 2020-03-01T18:34:28Z __vlgvrs is now known as paul0 2020-03-01T18:34:36Z mnepveu joined #lisp 2020-03-01T18:35:53Z grabarz quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-01T18:37:27Z mnepveu quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-01T18:38:15Z vms14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T18:40:30Z mnepveu joined #lisp 2020-03-01T18:41:09Z mnepveu quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-01T18:43:16Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T18:46:15Z stepnem_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-01T18:46:49Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-01T18:47:10Z luis: nmuro: good luck. You could try and do some experiments with a simple gz file too to get the hang of things 2020-03-01T18:47:53Z nmunro: That's very true, I suppose any text content gzip compressed and concatonated together would work just as well! 2020-03-01T18:47:58Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-03-01T18:48:23Z nmunro: So long as the byte offsets for each beginning block and the length are known 2020-03-01T18:49:10Z stepnem joined #lisp 2020-03-01T18:49:48Z theBlackDragon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T18:50:33Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-01T18:50:50Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-03-01T18:52:21Z whiteline_ joined #lisp 2020-03-01T18:52:53Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-01T18:54:27Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2020-03-01T18:55:07Z mnepveu joined #lisp 2020-03-01T19:04:11Z nmunro quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-01T19:06:34Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-01T19:11:43Z mnepveu quit 2020-03-01T19:13:27Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-01T19:18:13Z oitofelix joined #lisp 2020-03-01T19:19:11Z oitofelix quit (Changing host) 2020-03-01T19:19:11Z oitofelix joined #lisp 2020-03-01T19:19:32Z noobineer joined #lisp 2020-03-01T19:19:32Z grabarz joined #lisp 2020-03-01T19:19:53Z oitofelix: Hello everybody. How can I expand a macrolet? 2020-03-01T19:29:43Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-01T19:34:26Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T19:34:46Z pjb: oitofelix: (defmacro expand (form &environment env) `',(macroexpand form env)) (macrolet ((moo (x) `(list ',x))) (expand (moo 42))) 2020-03-01T19:37:43Z _death: if you're using slime, try C-c M-e (macrostep-expand) 2020-03-01T19:38:52Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T19:40:14Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-01T19:43:20Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T19:43:24Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-03-01T19:43:28Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-01T19:45:13Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-01T19:45:54Z ulrivo joined #lisp 2020-03-01T19:49:03Z ulrivo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T19:49:16Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-01T19:50:36Z sauvin is now known as Boc 2020-03-01T19:52:41Z luni joined #lisp 2020-03-01T19:56:09Z oitofelix: pjb: Thanks! I'm doing this in Emacs Lisp. It worked fined after I changed defmacro to cl-defmacro. Now I'm trying to understand why calling macroexpand doesn't work when put directly into the body of macrolet. 2020-03-01T19:57:02Z Bike: oh, is that what you mean? it's because macroexpand is just a function, so it only knows about the environment you pass in (or if you don't pass in an environment, the global environment) 2020-03-01T19:57:20Z Bike: it doesn't know about the local environment created by the macrolet, so it can't expand those macros 2020-03-01T20:01:37Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-01T20:09:58Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T20:17:23Z oitofelix: Bike: So when 'expand is called in the body of 'macrolet it captures macrolet's lexical environment (using the &environment feature of 'defmacro)? Where is this behavior specified exactly? Couldn't find it in ELisp nor Emacs' CL documentation nor in the Hyperspec. Is there another way to capture this environement and pass it to 'macroexpand or the only path is this indirection using a macro definition? 2020-03-01T20:17:26Z madmuppet006 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T20:18:22Z Bike: It's mentioned in the page on DEFMACRO and in more detail in CLHS 3.4.4, "Macro Lambda Lists" 2020-03-01T20:18:51Z Bike: and no, you pretty much need it from a macro. You can think of the macro environment as ceasing to exist once compilation is finished (because why would it be needed?) 2020-03-01T20:21:18Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T20:21:24Z Bike: For the same reason, the environment object has dynamic extent, meaning it's undefined behavior if you try to use it once the macro function with the &environment has finished. Though in practice it'll probably work anyway. 2020-03-01T20:24:05Z Bike: What you're trying to do is a bit unusual, can I ask what you have in mind? There might be a better way to do it. 2020-03-01T20:26:33Z oitofelix: Bike: I was trying to test the expansion of a local macro I defined. 2020-03-01T20:27:13Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-01T20:27:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-01T20:27:59Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-01T20:28:33Z Bike: ah. well, if your editor doesn't help you'd need something like pjb said, yeah. 2020-03-01T20:29:48Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T20:30:41Z oitofelix: Bike: I'm using GNU Emacs. Do you know any way it could help me out-of-the-box in doing that (to debug ELisp code)? 2020-03-01T20:31:19Z Bike: er, wait, is this elisp you're doing? I'm talking about common lisp, cos that's what the channel's about. What I said might not apply to elisp. 2020-03-01T20:31:53Z luni left #lisp 2020-03-01T20:31:57Z Bike: but no, i don't. most people here, including me, use an emacs library/whatever called SLIME, but that's not out of the box. 2020-03-01T20:32:05Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T20:32:14Z eeeeeta is now known as eta 2020-03-01T20:32:14Z eta is now known as eeeeeta 2020-03-01T20:36:06Z oitofelix: Bike: I think it applies. At least it behaves as if it applies, as far as I can tell the difference. I'm asking here because I don't know any channel exclusively dedicated to Emacs Lisp. This is the best approximation I could find. 2020-03-01T20:36:54Z oitofelix: Furthermore I'm profoundly interested in Lisp in general. Understanding the difference between dialects is a plus. 2020-03-01T20:37:35Z Bike: mm. well, be cautious. this is the kind of obscure thing where differences can pop up. and you'd probably want #emacs. they'd be more helpful with using emacs by itself, too. 2020-03-01T20:38:41Z Bike: actually, it looks like elisp doesn't have macrolet, normally? 2020-03-01T20:41:58Z oitofelix: Bike: I tend to think #emacs is not exclusive enough to Emacs Lisp matters. Let me do an experiment to test this hypothesis (for the sake of science). I'll ask the same question there and see with how much time and accuracy it'll be addressed. 2020-03-01T20:42:49Z Bike: well, elisp is an extension language. i imagine people on #emacs are more interested in emacs than in the ins and outs of the language, generally 2020-03-01T20:42:55Z Bike: nonetheless, they know elisp, and i don't 2020-03-01T20:44:17Z oitofelix: I think it depends on how you define "normally". The name-space of the CL package has been sanitized and the package is shipped in the standard distribution and parts of it are documented in the main ELisp programming manual. 2020-03-01T20:44:40Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-03-01T20:44:43Z Bike: well, there ya go - i had no idea 2020-03-01T20:48:41Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-03-01T20:49:01Z colony joined #lisp 2020-03-01T20:53:12Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-01T20:55:55Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-01T20:59:14Z pjb: oitofelix: there would be ##lisp for lisp in general, which includes emacs lisp. Of course, #emacs should be able to answer, but it's more a #lispcafe -like channel than properly emacs, most of the time… 2020-03-01T20:59:49Z pjb: oitofelix: however, emacs lisp is close to Common Lisp (despite the push to segregate CL stuff with cl- prefixes…). 2020-03-01T21:01:50Z pjb: oitofelix: also, most of the time, you can implement and debug your code in CL, and then use it directly in emacs lisp with little change. Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/ 2020-03-01T21:09:37Z z147 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T21:11:02Z aeth: afaik ##lisp is mostly CL vs. Scheme, but without the hostility that "vs." implies. Probably because #lisp and #scheme got sick of such discussions. 2020-03-01T21:13:16Z oitofelix: pjb: Thanks for the pointer. Really interesting! No luck in #emacs yet, though. 2020-03-01T21:19:08Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-01T21:19:36Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-01T21:19:47Z oitofelix: pjb: Indeed, in my humble experience Emacs is close enough to CL that experienced CL programmers are able to answer more profound questions about it (without even noticing it) than (casual) ELisp programmers. I think it's not as easy to find experienced ELisp programmers to answer questions about the language implementation itself (rather than the API for extending the editor). 2020-03-01T21:23:26Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T21:36:29Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-01T21:37:47Z creoenti joined #lisp 2020-03-01T21:39:47Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-01T21:44:31Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-01T21:46:52Z colony quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T21:49:56Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-01T21:53:12Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-01T21:56:33Z nmunro joined #lisp 2020-03-01T21:59:12Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-01T22:03:31Z nmunro: I feel like I'm missing something with the following snippet: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1684#1684 in order to copy a subset of a stream, using an offset and length, I need to have a sequence that is of size length+offset and this seems like I've misunderstood something fundamental 2020-03-01T22:05:23Z _death: nmunro: (file-position in offset) and read to an array of length LEN 2020-03-01T22:06:06Z pjb: _death: that wouldn't work on variable-length record files, such as :element-type unsigned-byte… 2020-03-01T22:06:14Z jmercouris: is there something I am missing here? what is the point of the lambda wrapping null? 2020-03-01T22:06:31Z pjb: nmunro: perhaps you'd prefer to use (unsigned-byte 8) or (unsigned-byte 16) or some other fixed-size record like that? 2020-03-01T22:06:48Z Bike: no, that's pointless, but sometimes you just end up writing like that 2020-03-01T22:06:50Z _death: pjb: obviously he should be using (unsigned-byte 8), and doesn't need to test IN, and likely doesn't want to use code-char... 2020-03-01T22:07:15Z jmercouris: yeah I was also wondering about WHEN IN 2020-03-01T22:08:08Z _death: and the array should be an octet array.. 2020-03-01T22:08:37Z jmercouris: if I remove compression on my Lisp image, will it start faster? 2020-03-01T22:08:46Z jmercouris: I believe the answer is yes... but how much? 2020-03-01T22:09:00Z _death: jmercouris: measure it 2020-03-01T22:09:11Z jmercouris: not sure how to measure that 2020-03-01T22:09:18Z aeth: (deftype octet () `(unsigned-byte 8)) ; this is probably already done 3-5 times in libraries you already have installed, but another time doesn't hurt if there's not a utility library you're already using that exposes this 2020-03-01T22:09:22Z jmercouris: I could have terminal mark the time, and then the program print the time? 2020-03-01T22:09:25Z jmercouris: diff the two? 2020-03-01T22:09:40Z nmunro: Right, we'll I've tried everything except the octet thing 2020-03-01T22:09:59Z _death: man 1 time 2020-03-01T22:10:29Z jmercouris: that doesn't help 2020-03-01T22:10:30Z pjb: nmunro: https://termbin.com/ioit 2020-03-01T22:10:32Z jmercouris: my program doesn't exist 2020-03-01T22:10:37Z jmercouris: exit* 2020-03-01T22:10:38Z jmercouris: lol 2020-03-01T22:10:53Z aeth: jmercouris: The best program is the program that doesn't exist! 2020-03-01T22:11:04Z aeth: (At least according to people who are strongly against not-invented-here) 2020-03-01T22:11:09Z frodef joined #lisp 2020-03-01T22:11:17Z pjb: aeth: not necessarily. I mean, it may not be the best, since it might need quite a bit of maintenance. 2020-03-01T22:11:41Z pjb: aeth: for example, it would have to return some status… etc. cf IEFBR14 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEFBR14 2020-03-01T22:11:58Z _death: jmercouris: since you want to measure compressed vs. noncompressed time, you can simply have a different "main" program that just exits.. 2020-03-01T22:12:12Z pjb: aeth: or /bin/true. Surprising amount of commits are needed for them… 2020-03-01T22:12:24Z nmunro: pjb: I was hoping to avoid filling an object with null data if at all possible, if it isn't possible, so be it 2020-03-01T22:12:37Z aeth: pjb: Well, yes, but I meant that any program you write is technical debt so if your program doesn't exist, then that probably means you found a good-enough alternative that already exists that you are using instead of writing a new one. 2020-03-01T22:13:01Z pjb: nmunro: what are you talking about? We've just explained how to do it, I even pasted the code to do it! 2020-03-01T22:13:04Z aeth: But the more I explain the joke the more this goes into #lispcafe territory... 2020-03-01T22:13:33Z pjb: nmunro: but note however, that code-char WILL produce nulls! 2020-03-01T22:14:02Z pjb: nmunro: (subseq (loop for i below char-code-limit unless (code-char i) collect i) 0 10) #| --> (55296 55297 55298 55299 55300 55301 55302 55303 55304 55305) |# 2020-03-01T22:14:35Z pjb: nmunro: happily, most implementations don't return nil for ascii control codes (as they should IMO), so for (unsigned-byte 8), you won't get nulls. 2020-03-01T22:15:52Z jmercouris: turning off core compression results in build failures 2020-03-01T22:15:53Z jmercouris: WHAT? 2020-03-01T22:16:07Z jmercouris: clearing my cache now... 2020-03-01T22:16:19Z aeth: Most things that will give you characters really give you (or null character)s so defending against that is fairly idiomatic. 2020-03-01T22:17:10Z jmercouris: _death: 1 yes 2020-03-01T22:17:11Z pjb: grep -nHiRe 'deftype *octet' ~/quicklisp |wc -l --> 50 2020-03-01T22:17:16Z aeth: Since NIL is the only falsy value you can use this to be more concise than e.g. handling NullPointerExceptions in Java 2020-03-01T22:17:16Z pjb: so, not 2 or 3… 2020-03-01T22:17:54Z nmunro: Well, pjb, I'm trying to parse the code, a block of code does not an understanding make, I am trying to understand 2020-03-01T22:18:09Z jmercouris: ah, it is a library I depend on 2020-03-01T22:18:41Z jmercouris: Serapeum, not the first time it is giving me problems 2020-03-01T22:19:45Z _death: jmercouris: a long time ago, some guy I knew wrote an article about executable compression.. maybe his conclusions are still valid 2020-03-01T22:19:52Z pjb: nmunro: until you become a programmer. Then a block of code makes more sense than anything else. 2020-03-01T22:20:16Z jmercouris: a block of code is the MOST succinct way to express a programming concept between programmers 2020-03-01T22:20:37Z jmercouris: that's literally what the language we use is expressing 2020-03-01T22:20:59Z jmercouris: _death: either way, I can't test because of Serapeum :-\ 2020-03-01T22:21:31Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-03-01T22:21:39Z nmunro: Well, thanks for the help, have a good day then 2020-03-01T22:21:59Z _death: f0dder: http://f0dder.reteam.org/packandstuff.htm 2020-03-01T22:23:20Z jmercouris: _death: thanks, reading now 2020-03-01T22:24:37Z |Pirx| joined #lisp 2020-03-01T22:24:50Z jmercouris: not sure how applicable taht is 2020-03-01T22:24:52Z jmercouris: s/taht/that 2020-03-01T22:26:30Z _death: jmercouris: feel free to ignore.. just nostalgia ;) 2020-03-01T22:27:01Z jmercouris: was an interesting read in any case 2020-03-01T22:28:10Z nmunro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-01T22:28:50Z jmercouris: seemed like nmunro was a bit salty if you ask me 2020-03-01T22:30:25Z aeth: pjb: quicklisp duplicates libraries every update so you can't just wc -l it, you have to filter for duplicates 2020-03-01T22:30:31Z aeth: pjb: and obviously it'll depend on which ones you have installed 2020-03-01T22:30:38Z aeth: I think I counted 5 for me last time I tried 2020-03-01T22:31:03Z jmercouris: here's a question, a tiling WM as I understand it is a tree of nodes 2020-03-01T22:31:11Z jmercouris: with either a horizontal or a vertical split 2020-03-01T22:31:29Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-01T22:31:30Z jmercouris: AKA, each split is a node with two children 2020-03-01T22:31:46Z jmercouris: let's say we are in a given child, how do we know what is to our left, right, top, or bottom? 2020-03-01T22:36:10Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-01T22:42:08Z koykots joined #lisp 2020-03-01T22:42:20Z _death: with this model, you seem to have h-nodes (left/right children), v-nodes (up/down children), and w-nodes (leaf nodes containing windows) so if you get a w-node, you can look at the ancestors and their descendants as needed to figure it out 2020-03-01T22:48:56Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2020-03-01T22:51:55Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-01T22:52:06Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-01T22:52:59Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-01T22:53:59Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-01T22:54:17Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-01T22:56:59Z koykots quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-03-01T23:00:50Z slyrus_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-01T23:02:31Z grabarz quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(sorry) 2020-03-02T01:54:49Z no-defun-allowed: Xach: Fair enough. No need to apologise though, the second half does technically answer my question. 2020-03-02T01:54:59Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T01:57:11Z gko joined #lisp 2020-03-02T02:01:00Z noobineer2 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T02:04:09Z noobineer1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-02T02:04:34Z mn3m quit (Quit: mn3m) 2020-03-02T02:05:03Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-02T02:10:48Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-03-02T02:32:40Z MetaYan joined #lisp 2020-03-02T02:51:24Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-03-02T02:53:54Z doublex__ joined #lisp 2020-03-02T02:56:56Z doublex_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-02T03:02:26Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T03:09:22Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-02T03:10:23Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2020-03-02T03:17:46Z creoenti quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T03:22:55Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-02T03:23:12Z dddddd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-02T03:23:25Z efm 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2020-03-02T08:05:57Z beach: :) 2020-03-02T08:07:11Z beach: What hotel are you staying at in Zürich? 2020-03-02T08:07:34Z no-defun-allowed: phoe: I was hoping to write some code that would allow SLIME to suggest symbol names from my own namespace (opcode names, which are the keys of a hash-table somewhere) in a macro (define-script). 2020-03-02T08:09:04Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-02T08:09:44Z no-defun-allowed: It's not really important, but it would be neat as I sometimes forget the opcode names. Maybe I should pick better names. 2020-03-02T08:10:07Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: I'll casually suggest keywords, as usual 2020-03-02T08:11:10Z phoe: beach: I haven't registered yet and will likely not come this year, since I need to route my money elsewhere this year - wedding preparations, most notably. The new pandemic also contributes to that. 2020-03-02T08:13:10Z beach: phoe: I see. 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2020-03-02T13:49:06Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T13:49:44Z rj0d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T13:49:57Z paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T13:50:17Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T13:52:03Z Duuqnd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-02T13:52:14Z madrik: I read that SBCL 2.0.2 features 'block compilation', an aspect of CMUCL. How and where is this helpful? 2020-03-02T13:52:34Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-02T13:53:00Z madrik: The CMU docs say that 'it preserves efficiency in programs even when (for readability and syntactic convenience) they are broken up into many small functions.' 2020-03-02T13:53:18Z Shinmera: madrik: https://mstmetent.blogspot.com/2020/02/block-compilation-fresh-in-sbcl-202.html 2020-03-02T13:54:45Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-02T13:55:53Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-02T14:01:49Z madrik: Shinmera: That's a very good article. Thanks. It explains the idea and implementation well. 2020-03-02T14:03:53Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-02T14:04:22Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-02T14:09:24Z JohnMS joined #lisp 2020-03-02T14:09:56Z JohnMS left #lisp 2020-03-02T14:11:25Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-02T14:14:21Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T14:16:47Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-02T14:20:32Z luni joined #lisp 2020-03-02T14:22:08Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2020-03-02T14:27:25Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-02T14:31:55Z eli_oat quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-02T14:34:42Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-03-02T14:36:06Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-02T14:45:46Z ljavorsk__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T14:51:33Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2020-03-02T14:53:36Z ArthurStrong quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-02T14:55:07Z LiamH joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:00:46Z mercourisj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T15:04:29Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:06:26Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T15:08:25Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-03-02T15:09:06Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-02T15:10:58Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:12:55Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:16:12Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:20:25Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:20:26Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T15:23:48Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:26:05Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T15:26:15Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:27:06Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-02T15:31:01Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-02T15:31:38Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-02T15:33:23Z xkapastel joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:34:26Z Posterdati: LiamH: hi! 2020-03-02T15:34:46Z LiamH: Hi Posterdati 2020-03-02T15:35:50Z Posterdati: LiamH: I submitted patches for cffi under openbsd and freebsd to let them run sbcl + gsll/antik 2020-03-02T15:36:28Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:36:32Z LiamH: Good. 2020-03-02T15:36:49Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:37:39Z Posterdati: LiamH: did you take a look to the patches I submitted to you for gsll? 2020-03-02T15:38:04Z LiamH: Do you have a merge request on gitlab? 2020-03-02T15:38:12Z Posterdati: LiamH: no 2020-03-02T15:38:23Z Posterdati: LiamH: I sent them by email 2020-03-02T15:38:45Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T15:38:55Z Posterdati: LiamH: but I patched cffi and gsll/antil compiled with no patch on groveller 2020-03-02T15:39:10Z Posterdati: LiamH: so I think someone corrected the problem 2020-03-02T15:41:20Z LiamH: What do you want me to do? 2020-03-02T15:42:25Z Posterdati: LiamH: would be nice if someone could put up 3 or 4 virtual machines to test antik and gsll under netbsd, freebsd and openbsd, I could lend an hand to configure and install 2020-03-02T15:42:48Z Posterdati: LiamH: nothing I'm only say to you what I did :) 2020-03-02T15:43:26Z LiamH: OK 2020-03-02T15:44:11Z Posterdati: LiamH: is there anyone that could give us a bunch of virtual machines for free? 2020-03-02T15:44:30Z LiamH: I have no idea. 2020-03-02T15:45:12Z Posterdati: LiamH: are you interested in such a thing: I mean test these packages on different architectures/implementations? 2020-03-02T15:46:02Z LiamH: I have no objection if someone else wants to do it. I lack the skills, knowledge, or time to do any of it. 2020-03-02T15:46:12Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-02T15:47:03Z LiamH: Also keep in mind that many tests fail already on Linux/SBCL. I have not had time to address those either. 2020-03-02T15:47:04Z v_m_v quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-02T15:47:06Z Posterdati: LiamH: what about sbcl developer, how can they test various platforms? 2020-03-02T15:47:09Z luni left #lisp 2020-03-02T15:47:26Z LiamH: You'd have to ask them, see #sbcl. 2020-03-02T15:47:33Z Posterdati: LiamH: well they could reduce in other archs :) 2020-03-02T15:47:40Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:48:43Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-02T15:50:06Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:50:13Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T15:50:15Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-02T15:50:46Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:51:03Z wsinatra: Posterdati: If the #SBCL channel is too slow you can try their official mailing list too. I believe they just release 2.0.2 this weekend, so they might have their heads down 2020-03-02T15:51:31Z Posterdati: wsinatra: :) 2020-03-02T15:54:12Z dale_ joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:54:18Z dale_ is now known as dale 2020-03-02T15:54:38Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T15:54:51Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:56:01Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:56:13Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-02T15:58:13Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T16:01:03Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-02T16:02:45Z jmercouris: if I use extern c in my c++ code, can I call it from CFFI directly, or do I have to make a C file that calls that code which I then bridge? 2020-03-02T16:04:01Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-02T16:04:23Z efm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T16:04:47Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-02T16:04:47Z phoe: should be callable directly, since "extern C" instructs the compiler not to mangle the name 2020-03-02T16:06:47Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-02T16:07:06Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T16:08:19Z flamebeard quit 2020-03-02T16:08:28Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-02T16:10:24Z sunwukong quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-02T16:10:44Z montaropdf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-03-02T16:14:11Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-02T16:15:42Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.2)) 2020-03-02T16:17:01Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T16:20:01Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-02T16:25:22Z cracauer joined #lisp 2020-03-02T16:25:31Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-03-02T16:29:22Z noobineer1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-02T16:39:43Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-02T16:42:14Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T16:42:39Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-02T16:44:10Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-02T16:44:38Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-02T16:46:10Z eli_oat quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-02T16:50:36Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-02T16:53:40Z KDr24 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T16:53:41Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-02T16:54:06Z KDr23 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T16:54:50Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T16:58:20Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2020-03-02T16:58:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T17:01:55Z pfdietz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T17:09:38Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T17:10:46Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T17:14:53Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-02T17:23:22Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T17:25:16Z vms14 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T17:29:18Z pmden quit (Quit: Goodbyeee) 2020-03-02T17:30:05Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-02T17:31:53Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T17:32:31Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-02T17:35:10Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2020-03-02T17:36:54Z whiteline_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T17:37:20Z whiteline_ joined #lisp 2020-03-02T17:38:19Z whiteline_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T17:39:03Z whiteline_ joined #lisp 2020-03-02T17:42:35Z cmatei joined #lisp 2020-03-02T17:45:27Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T17:49:54Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-02T17:50:29Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-02T17:52:19Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-02T17:52:33Z jmercouris: if I use extern c in my c++ code, can I call it from CFFI directly, or do I have to make a C file that calls that code which I then bridge? 2020-03-02T17:53:09Z jmercouris: phoe: thanks, I'll give it a try 2020-03-02T17:59:32Z vms14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T18:01:41Z efm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-02T18:02:39Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2020-03-02T18:05:03Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-02T18:05:08Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-02T18:05:20Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T18:13:35Z psj joined #lisp 2020-03-02T18:17:19Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-02T18:19:11Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-03-02T18:27:26Z eli_oat quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T18:30:40Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2020-03-02T18:44:30Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T18:45:24Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-03-02T18:51:54Z vms14 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T18:55:56Z vms14: do you use sly instead of slime? 2020-03-02T18:56:17Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-02T19:01:42Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T19:03:19Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-02T19:09:32Z cmatei joined #lisp 2020-03-02T19:15:55Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-02T19:20:06Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-02T19:24:19Z eli_oat quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-02T19:24:50Z Boc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-02T19:27:56Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2020-03-02T19:34:16Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-02T19:36:40Z sz0 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T19:39:43Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-02T19:41:00Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-02T19:41:32Z eli_oat quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-02T19:41:57Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T19:42:10Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T19:42:42Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-02T19:44:23Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-02T19:44:27Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-03-02T19:46:19Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T19:51:23Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-02T19:56:08Z ulrivo joined #lisp 2020-03-02T19:56:58Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-02T19:59:02Z vms14: how I'm supposed to supply a path for cffi? 2020-03-02T19:59:29Z vms14: (pushnew #P"/usr/pkg/lib/" cffi:*foreign-library-directories*) tried that but no effect 2020-03-02T19:59:49Z vms14: also I see some packages have autowrap.lisp and tried to put the paths were it should find the .h, but nope 2020-03-02T20:00:26Z vms14: I try to use cl-sdl2 or cl-opengl or whatever it's similar, but I'm not able to load them with quicklisp because they assume linux paths and nope 2020-03-02T20:00:26Z lispcpython joined #lisp 2020-03-02T20:01:03Z davsebam1e joined #lisp 2020-03-02T20:01:12Z lispcpython quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T20:02:42Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-02T20:03:45Z vms14: https://termbin.com/j2mi 2020-03-02T20:04:10Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-02T20:04:15Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-03-02T20:04:56Z vms14: xD this one no 2020-03-02T20:05:14Z davsebam1e quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T20:05:48Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2020-03-02T20:05:55Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2020-03-02T20:06:54Z vms14: https://termbin.com/bg5o 2020-03-02T20:06:54Z vms14: 2020-03-02T20:08:05Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-02T20:09:34Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-02T20:09:43Z phoe: luis: maybe you could answer that one 2020-03-02T20:10:10Z phoe: the only thing I was able to find was a CFFI bug that turned out to be a CFFI feature 2020-03-02T20:10:23Z phoe: I need to go to sleep now to avoid creating more useless work for others 2020-03-02T20:11:37Z vms14: I suppose I have to study about cffi 2020-03-02T20:11:46Z mangul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T20:13:26Z ulrivo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T20:22:05Z luis: phoe: sure. vms14, what are you trying to do? 2020-03-02T20:22:26Z phoe: vms14: I assume trying to load a library on a non-Linux non-macOS unixlike OS 2020-03-02T20:22:28Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-02T20:22:39Z phoe: where default library paths are different 2020-03-02T20:25:23Z luis: Usually, the Lisp invokes the OS's linker which is then in charge of finding the library 2020-03-02T20:27:06Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T20:29:46Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2020-03-02T20:29:54Z frodef joined #lisp 2020-03-02T20:30:25Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T20:31:26Z eeeeeta quit (Quit: Gateway shutdown) 2020-03-02T20:32:18Z eeeeeta joined #lisp 2020-03-02T20:38:20Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2020-03-02T20:42:24Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-03-02T20:52:28Z vms14: sorry I was afk 2020-03-02T20:52:32Z vms14: it's netbsd 2020-03-02T20:53:00Z vms14: and netbsd puts installed stuff in /usr/pkg/ 2020-03-02T20:53:13Z vms14: the only stuff I have no troubles with, it's clx and sqlite 2020-03-02T20:53:23Z vms14: sqlite comes by default so it's installed in /usr/ 2020-03-02T21:10:12Z psj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T21:11:36Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-03-02T21:12:42Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T21:13:04Z luis: vms14: see the "Finding objects" section https://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?ld.elf_so+1+NetBSD-current 2020-03-02T21:13:08Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-02T21:15:58Z vms14: thanks luis 2020-03-02T21:18:21Z efm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T21:18:44Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-02T21:20:40Z vms14: luis :O seems to work 2020-03-02T21:21:05Z vms14: thanks so much, I was stuck with this with most of libraries, and thought I had to configure stuff in the lisp files 2020-03-02T21:21:17Z vms14: :D 2020-03-02T21:21:22Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-02T21:22:10Z vms14: opengl could be loaded with quicklisp 2020-03-02T21:22:13Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-02T21:22:22Z vms14: sdl2 no because it's missing c2ffi 2020-03-02T21:22:34Z vms14: Couldn't execute "c2ffi": No such file or directory 2020-03-02T21:22:47Z vms14: but thanks you so much, I guess now much more libraries will work 2020-03-02T21:22:56Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-02T21:24:34Z amerlyq quit (Quit: amerlyq) 2020-03-02T21:25:16Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-03-02T21:26:11Z luis: vms14: 👍 2020-03-02T21:27:32Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-02T21:28:46Z vms14: https://termbin.com/l5em 2020-03-02T21:29:19Z vms14: caught ERROR:; (during macroexpansion of (AUTOWRAP:C-INCLUDE '(SDL2 AUTOWRAP-SPEC ...) ...)); Couldn't execute "c2ffi": No such file or directory 2020-03-02T21:29:48Z vms14: oh, I have no clang, so it's normal xD 2020-03-02T21:30:50Z luis: vms14: I've got a 386 with NetBSD over there, but I haven't booted it in two decades. 2020-03-02T21:31:07Z vms14: :O netbsd is nice 2020-03-02T21:31:13Z vms14: specially if the hardware sucks 2020-03-02T21:31:46Z luis: I upgraded it to 8 MB of RAM at some point. 2020-03-02T21:32:18Z vms14: it seems there is no c2ffi package for netbsd 2020-03-02T21:33:26Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T21:33:35Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-02T21:33:50Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-02T21:34:03Z z147 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T21:38:46Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-02T21:45:35Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-02T21:47:10Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T21:47:15Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-02T21:49:06Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T21:51:17Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-02T21:52:06Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-02T21:58:52Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T21:59:11Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T22:05:15Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-02T22:20:28Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-02T22:28:20Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-02T22:29:25Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T22:30:52Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-02T22:35:29Z jmercouris: anyone know of a CL text to speech engine? 2020-03-02T22:35:41Z jmercouris: It doesn't have to be purely in CL, it can call out to some OS specific system, just looking for a wrapper 2020-03-02T22:37:25Z Shinmera: Google translate has a simple API you can make an HTTP request to that'll return an mp3 file. 2020-03-02T22:38:14Z Shinmera: Not great if you need it to be private or offline, but probably the easiest otherwise. 2020-03-02T22:38:43Z Balooga: https://simulationcorner.net/index.php?page=sam 2020-03-02T22:39:39Z Balooga: Wrap that perhaps? I loved SAM on my C64 2020-03-02T22:40:48Z jmercouris: Looking for offline, I know on macos I can call "say", not sure what to do on Linux, maybe there is an equivalent 2020-03-02T22:40:58Z jmercouris: just trying to make Next accessible 2020-03-02T22:41:02Z jmercouris: for the visually impaired 2020-03-02T22:44:09Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-02T22:45:53Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2020-03-02T22:46:26Z slyrus__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-02T22:51:59Z no-defun-allowed: espeak is quite common, though it sounds pretty robotic. 2020-03-02T22:54:15Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-02T22:55:14Z whiteline_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-02T22:56:21Z Frobozz joined #lisp 2020-03-02T22:58:40Z jmercouris: OK, thank you 2020-03-02T22:58:54Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-02T23:03:14Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T23:06:34Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-02T23:08:18Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-02T23:10:12Z whiteline_ joined #lisp 2020-03-02T23:10:45Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-02T23:11:46Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-02T23:15:40Z Bike quit (Quit: Bike) 2020-03-02T23:18:45Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-03-02T23:19:12Z pjb: Why does this jmercouris guy always log out before getting an answer? 2020-03-02T23:19:16Z pjb: (swank:eval-in-emacs '(speak "Hello")) 2020-03-02T23:25:27Z Frobozz_ joined #lisp 2020-03-02T23:28:35Z Frobozz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-02T23:29:19Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-02T23:29:42Z mgsk_ joined #lisp 2020-03-02T23:31:23Z xuxuru quit (Quit: xuxuru) 2020-03-02T23:32:12Z Frobozz joined #lisp 2020-03-02T23:34:55Z Frobozz___ joined #lisp 2020-03-02T23:35:14Z Frobozz_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-02T23:38:24Z Frobozz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-02T23:41:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-02T23:44:59Z eli_oat quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2020-03-02T23:47:16Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2020-03-02T23:50:26Z phoe: minion: memo for jmercouris: 00:19 < pjb> Why does this jmercouris guy always log out before getting an answer? 2020-03-02T23:50:26Z minion: Remembered. 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2020-03-03T05:10:43Z loke``: Hello beach! 2020-03-03T05:16:11Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-03-03T05:17:31Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T05:21:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T05:22:50Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T05:23:16Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-03T05:23:17Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-03T05:27:25Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T05:27:58Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-03T05:32:20Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T05:32:47Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-03T05:35:19Z niceplace quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-03T05:37:42Z niceplace joined #lisp 2020-03-03T05:39:15Z malm quit (Quit: Bye bye) 2020-03-03T05:40:10Z caltelt quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T05:41:20Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T05:41:48Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-03T05:43:20Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T05:56:11Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T05:56:14Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:10:18Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:12:38Z borodust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T06:12:44Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T06:13:25Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:15:19Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-03T06:15:19Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-03T06:15:59Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:20:44Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:21:07Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:21:50Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T06:22:25Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:25:20Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T06:27:01Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:28:57Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:29:51Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T06:30:34Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:32:55Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T06:33:12Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T06:33:20Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:34:07Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:34:07Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T06:34:28Z dale quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep) 2020-03-03T06:34:31Z malm joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:36:25Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T06:36:44Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:38:56Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:39:24Z borodust joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:41:33Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-03T06:52:51Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:54:03Z dddddd_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-03T06:55:06Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T06:55:25Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-03T06:57:26Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T06:57:55Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:00:17Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:01:34Z ljavorsk__ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:02:38Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:07:12Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T07:08:10Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:09:55Z ljavorsk__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-03T07:12:40Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T07:15:10Z leo` joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:16:03Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:17:01Z leo`: hello 2020-03-03T07:17:19Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-03T07:17:38Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:18:26Z pjb: hello 2020-03-03T07:20:15Z beach: Hello leo`. 2020-03-03T07:20:18Z karlosz: hi folks 2020-03-03T07:20:23Z beach: Hey karlosz. 2020-03-03T07:20:28Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-03T07:20:59Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:23:55Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-03T07:24:27Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T07:24:56Z beach: leo`: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2020-03-03T07:25:03Z ljavorsk__ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:25:20Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-03T07:26:51Z HiRE: I've read PCL and I enjoyed it...however I am now looking for something a little more hands on. I feel like PCL threw the kitchen sink at me and now I have the tools but no idea how to practice them 2020-03-03T07:26:56Z HiRE: are there good supplementary books to PCL? 2020-03-03T07:27:22Z Shinmera: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming is one 2020-03-03T07:27:32Z beach: minion: Please tell HiRE about PAIP. 2020-03-03T07:27:32Z minion: HiRE: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp 2020-03-03T07:27:34Z Shinmera: Other than that, just.. you know, do things. 2020-03-03T07:28:12Z HiRE: oh neat. Yeah I feel like PCL got me most of the way here but the whole kitchen sink and stuff 2020-03-03T07:28:21Z HiRE: was just looking for more ways to branch out 2020-03-03T07:28:39Z HiRE: I've read a lot of stuff about CLOS being great but often overkill for most things and im having trouble deprogramming OOP from my brain 2020-03-03T07:28:44Z beach: HiRE: Start a project or get involved in an existing one. 2020-03-03T07:29:07Z beach: HiRE: CLOS is definitely not overkill. 2020-03-03T07:29:45Z HiRE: thats why im asking for more books - for example I'd like to implement a bunch of stuff in computational geometry. It's my specialization in my PhD 2020-03-03T07:29:52Z HiRE: however having been poisoned by java for years 2020-03-03T07:29:58Z HiRE: Im just staring at a blank screen 2020-03-03T07:30:10Z HiRE: figured when that happens I need to spend more time learning the proper way to think lispy 2020-03-03T07:30:13Z HiRE: before being so ambitious 2020-03-03T07:30:25Z ljavorsk__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T07:31:59Z beach: I don't know whether there is a Common Lisp library for computational geometry, but it would be good to have one. 2020-03-03T07:32:24Z beach: HiRE: Where did you get your PhD? 2020-03-03T07:32:57Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:34:07Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T07:34:39Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:35:10Z shka_: good day! 2020-03-03T07:35:23Z beach: Hello shka_. 2020-03-03T07:35:25Z |Pirx| quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T07:35:44Z |Pirx| joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:36:13Z sauvin joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:38:20Z HiRE: beach, working on it - currently in my 2nd semester 2020-03-03T07:38:22Z HiRE: im out of UNLV 2020-03-03T07:39:02Z beach: I see. Do you know my friend Subhash Suri? 2020-03-03T07:39:25Z HiRE: the name sounds familiar but I doubt Ive met them 2020-03-03T07:39:37Z beach: OK. 2020-03-03T07:39:54Z HiRE: I'd be happy to contribute a computational geometry library to the lisp universe 2020-03-03T07:39:59Z HiRE: just gotta...you know get good enough to write one 2020-03-03T07:40:07Z beach: Of course. 2020-03-03T07:40:10Z HiRE: I havent'felt so overwhelmed in a long time. It's a nice feeling but uncomfortable 2020-03-03T07:40:21Z HiRE: like learning the first language I ever learned. 2020-03-03T07:41:11Z HiRE: I can see the real power of lisp just from what I've done in PCL - the trick now is to be able to execute on that power. I suppose thats just practice. 2020-03-03T07:41:14Z HiRE: lots and lots of it. 2020-03-03T07:41:25Z beach: Indeed. 2020-03-03T07:41:30Z Shinmera: Yep. 2020-03-03T07:41:34Z beach: And get feedback on your code. 2020-03-03T07:41:46Z Shinmera: The first library I ever wrote is still useful today! So I'd say just go for it. 2020-03-03T07:42:05Z Shinmera: It's also the first thing I did after PCL, though I did have to rewrite it some months later. 2020-03-03T07:42:13Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:42:54Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T07:42:55Z HiRE: yep, the whole impetus for running back here for help is that I dont really know how to structure a red black tree right in a lispy way 2020-03-03T07:43:05Z HiRE: would you use CLOS to contain all the methods? 2020-03-03T07:43:33Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-03-03T07:43:57Z trittweiler: It's not Java. Objects do not contain methods. :) 2020-03-03T07:44:25Z aeth: CLOS is multiple dispatch so that doesn't make sense, unlike in most OOP languages. 2020-03-03T07:44:30Z HiRE: right...sorry the deprogramming is going to take time 2020-03-03T07:45:45Z ljavorsk__ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:45:57Z trittweiler: You could have generic functions LEFT-NODE, RIGHT-NODE. But in this case, I would probably just use functions. Except if you have a good idea on in what way you want things to be extensible 2020-03-03T07:46:10Z ak5 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:47:05Z HiRE: ah ok. I will go back and review PCL's tutorial on CLOS again so I can fully grasp multiple dispatch 2020-03-03T07:47:18Z HiRE: I was thinking of just using methods as well 2020-03-03T07:47:44Z Josh_2: you can 2020-03-03T07:48:47Z loke``: HiRE: I have implemented the only red-black tree implementqtion on Common Lisp that works. 2020-03-03T07:48:59Z loke``: ALl the other I've tried loses data in certain edge-cases 2020-03-03T07:49:08Z HiRE: thats a bold statement :P 2020-03-03T07:49:23Z HiRE: I suppose I have my work cut out for me then 2020-03-03T07:49:33Z loke``: HiRE: Fair enough. rbtrees are notoriously difficult to get right. But I have tested it extensively. 2020-03-03T07:49:49Z loke``: And all others (three other versions if I'm not mistaken) have failed. 2020-03-03T07:50:16Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:50:17Z HiRE: yeah I chose it arbitrarily. For maintaining sweepline state you generally need a height balanced tree and rbtrees are just convenient in the literature 2020-03-03T07:50:20Z rwcom9 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:50:28Z loke``: And I ran a special version that _also_ stored the data in a linked list in parallel and double-checked the result on every acess and ran this debug/slow version in production for months without errors. 2020-03-03T07:50:46Z loke``: Here is my implementation: https://github.com/lokedhs/containers/blob/master/src/rbtree.lisp 2020-03-03T07:50:51Z loke``: It's based ont he reference C implementation. 2020-03-03T07:51:58Z rwcom quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T07:51:59Z rwcom9 is now known as rwcom 2020-03-03T07:52:01Z loke``: Please don't try to reimplement it yourself. It _will_ fail. An rbtree will work 99.999% of times if you get a single rotation wrong, until it doesn't, and you lose data. 2020-03-03T07:52:21Z HiRE: yeah, I may borrow your rbtree or use a 2-3 tree or something instead 2020-03-03T07:52:29Z HiRE: im not trying to overcomplicate finding line intersections 2020-03-03T07:52:31Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:52:31Z loke``: Please go ahead. 2020-03-03T07:52:38Z HiRE: O(logn) is really all I care about 2020-03-03T07:52:41Z loke``: rbtrees are amazing when they work :-) 2020-03-03T07:52:56Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:53:00Z Necktwi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-03T07:53:53Z Josh_2: beach: how's this https://github.com/K1D77A/cl-fuzzer/blob/master/src/string-generation.lisp 2020-03-03T07:54:04Z Josh_2: short and sweet, not like me xD 2020-03-03T07:58:17Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-03T07:59:16Z aeth: I personally only use methods over functions when either generic dispatch is needed or :after/:before/:around is needed. 2020-03-03T07:59:34Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T07:59:51Z Josh_2: after before and around are very useful 2020-03-03T08:00:03Z beach: Josh_2: Is that your code? 2020-03-03T08:00:05Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-03T08:01:44Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-03T08:02:06Z ljavorsk__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T08:04:16Z Josh_2: yes 2020-03-03T08:05:06Z eghoe joined #lisp 2020-03-03T08:05:07Z eghoe: [Global Notice] Hello, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T08:05:08Z eghoe: [Global Notice] Hello, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T08:05:09Z eghoe: [Global Notice] Hello, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T08:05:10Z eghoe left #lisp 2020-03-03T08:05:16Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-03T08:07:22Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 2020-03-03T08:08:06Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-03T08:08:43Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-03T08:08:47Z beach: Josh_2: Are you showing it in order to get feedback? 2020-03-03T08:09:15Z beach: Somehow, I think that "Global Notice" is fake. 2020-03-03T08:09:23Z pjb: :-) 2020-03-03T08:09:39Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@39.188.250.31 2020-03-03T08:09:43Z shka_: lol 2020-03-03T08:09:51Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@113.116.21.248 2020-03-03T08:10:00Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@223.73.61.1 2020-03-03T08:10:08Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@116.225.38.167 2020-03-03T08:11:26Z Josh_2: beach: yes :P 2020-03-03T08:11:39Z p_l: miiight get us some respite 2020-03-03T08:12:10Z beach: Josh_2: Why is there a blank line between some top-level definitions and not others? 2020-03-03T08:12:47Z Josh_2: I don't know 2020-03-03T08:12:49Z beach: And why do you select a random number in the interval [0,25[ when there are 26 letters? 2020-03-03T08:14:10Z Josh_2: because 25 gets zz 2020-03-03T08:14:11Z Josh_2: z* 2020-03-03T08:14:45Z aeth: There should always be a blank line between defines at the top level unless they're one liners that make sense together, which is more of a DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER/DEFCONSTANT thing 2020-03-03T08:14:59Z beach: Josh_2: I don't understand. 2020-03-03T08:15:04Z Josh_2: oops 2020-03-03T08:15:05Z Josh_2: I do 2020-03-03T08:15:11Z Josh_2: random should be 26 2020-03-03T08:15:45Z aeth: it's a common bug 2020-03-03T08:16:33Z Josh_2: Fixed that :P 2020-03-03T08:17:58Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-03T08:19:17Z beach: Josh_2: I think the error in x..n is wrong. 2020-03-03T08:19:35Z beach: Plus n..x and x..n look very similar. It ought to be possible to factor the code. 2020-03-03T08:19:38Z ak5 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T08:20:21Z White_Flame: yeah, calculate a stepping of -1 or +1 first, and use it in the loop 2020-03-03T08:20:41Z White_Flame: plus the names don't really tell you which is which 2020-03-03T08:20:46Z White_Flame: *names of the functinos 2020-03-03T08:21:08Z beach: Josh_2: With (reduce #'append...) you might want to do :from-end t as well. 2020-03-03T08:21:21Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-03-03T08:21:22Z beach: Not that it matters much here probably, but still. 2020-03-03T08:23:42Z Josh_2: What difference does adding :from-end make? 2020-03-03T08:23:50Z Josh_2: It produces the same result 2020-03-03T08:23:59Z beach: It turns a quadratic algorithm into a linear one. 2020-03-03T08:25:14Z Josh_2: White_Flame: what do you mean with -1 +1 in the loop? 2020-03-03T08:25:55Z Josh_2: beach: I do not know what you mean by that :O 2020-03-03T08:26:15Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-03-03T08:27:26Z beach: Josh_2: Try this: (defparameter *l* (make-list 10000 :initial-element '(a b))) then (time (length (reduce #'append *l*))) and (time (reduce #'append *l* :from-end t)) 2020-03-03T08:28:29Z beach: Do you see a difference? 2020-03-03T08:28:43Z Josh_2: Yes, a substantial one 2020-03-03T08:28:55Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T08:29:36Z beach: Look also at the amount of memory allocated in the two cases. 2020-03-03T08:29:43Z White_Flame: Josh_2: (loop for x = start then (+ x delta) collect x until (= x end)) 2020-03-03T08:30:14Z White_Flame: the BY clause doesn't work for both positive & negative, unfortunately 2020-03-03T08:30:54Z White_Flame: but the way I pasted is agnostic to the direction of the iteration. You just need to figure if delta should be +1 or -1 2020-03-03T08:30:55Z Josh_2: beach: yes I see, quite a difference 2020-03-03T08:31:17Z White_Flame: and probably be more defensive for edge cases 2020-03-03T08:31:34Z Josh_2: White_Flame: are you talking about x..n and n..x? 2020-03-03T08:31:37Z White_Flame: yes 2020-03-03T08:31:45Z Josh_2: I changed those names 2020-03-03T08:31:53Z Josh_2: Much more descriptive now :P 2020-03-03T08:32:07Z Josh_2: but why would I change the loop, it works just fine 2020-03-03T08:32:24Z White_Flame: just going on what beach said abotu not needing to duplicate 99% of the code across 2 functions 2020-03-03T08:32:36Z Josh_2: oh right 2020-03-03T08:32:37Z leo` is now known as Leo_4 2020-03-03T08:32:51Z Duuqnd joined #lisp 2020-03-03T08:33:40Z clothespin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2020-03-03T08:33:43Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T08:35:43Z Josh_2: I'm going to keep those functions as is, the error check is different so I'm only really repeating 1 line ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 2020-03-03T08:36:00Z Josh_2: Thanks for taking the time White_Flame beach :) 2020-03-03T08:36:11Z beach: Josh_2: So that little experiment shows why you should use :from-end t with (reduce #'append...). 2020-03-03T08:37:35Z Jachy joined #lisp 2020-03-03T08:38:02Z Josh_2: Yes :P 2020-03-03T08:38:25Z beach: Now you just need to understand why. :) 2020-03-03T08:38:50Z Jachy left #lisp 2020-03-03T08:39:21Z Josh_2: That's for tomorrow after sleep :P 2020-03-03T08:39:22Z Jachy joined #lisp 2020-03-03T08:39:39Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-03T08:52:20Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T08:54:25Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: DataLinkDroid) 2020-03-03T08:57:29Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T09:00:10Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:01:42Z hhdave joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:03:00Z Leo_4 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T09:05:38Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T09:07:28Z ljavorsk__ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:08:55Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T09:09:45Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:10:44Z frodef joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:11:16Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-03T09:12:02Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:12:25Z ljavorsk__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T09:12:43Z ljavorsk__ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:16:51Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-03T09:18:40Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T09:19:04Z hekeecl joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:19:05Z hekeecl: [Global Notice] Hello chatters, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T09:19:06Z hekeecl: [Global Notice] Hello chatters, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T09:19:07Z hekeecl: [Global Notice] Hello chatters, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T09:19:08Z hekeecl left #lisp 2020-03-03T09:20:02Z ljavorsk__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T09:21:13Z no-defun-allowed: Huh, didn't know that about (reduce #'append ...). Very clever. 2020-03-03T09:21:36Z beach: It is obvious when you think about it. 2020-03-03T09:22:17Z TurboHaskal joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:23:24Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:24:55Z no-defun-allowed: Definitely (and maybe with APPEND or a wrapper traced), but I'll leave Josh_2 to figure it out. 2020-03-03T09:25:50Z beach: If you know how REDUCE and APPEND both work, the result is clear. 2020-03-03T09:27:26Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T09:28:27Z vidak`` joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:28:51Z vidak`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T09:29:16Z vidak joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:30:24Z vidak quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-03T09:30:50Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-03T09:32:54Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:37:02Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T09:44:38Z Southy joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:46:26Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T09:47:00Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T09:47:52Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:48:58Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-03T09:51:26Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T09:52:23Z TurboHaskal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-03T09:52:31Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:53:10Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-03T09:55:08Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7) 2020-03-03T09:57:34Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T10:01:25Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:02:35Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@236-230-121-168.internet58.com.br 2020-03-03T10:02:40Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:03:49Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T10:04:06Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:05:56Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T10:10:03Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:10:07Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:11:32Z aroosh joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:11:33Z aroosh: [Global Notice] Hello chatters, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. 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Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T10:11:36Z aroosh left #lisp 2020-03-03T10:12:10Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@111.30.91.10 2020-03-03T10:13:09Z p_l: ... on days like that, I'm tempted to hack back on each IP, find the worm, trace back to it's C2 and do impolite things :| 2020-03-03T10:13:25Z Awei joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:13:26Z Awei: [Global Notice] Hello chatters, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T10:13:27Z Awei: [Global Notice] Hello chatters, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T10:13:29Z Awei: [Global Notice] Hello chatters, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T10:13:29Z drol_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:13:30Z Awei left #lisp 2020-03-03T10:13:30Z drol_: [Global Notice] Hello chatters, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T10:13:31Z drol_: [Global Notice] Hello chatters, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T10:13:32Z drol_: [Global Notice] Hello chatters, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T10:13:33Z drol_ left #lisp 2020-03-03T10:13:40Z phoe: p_l: we need +r on the channel. 2020-03-03T10:13:42Z obleegh joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:13:43Z obleegh: [Global Notice] Hello chatters, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T10:13:44Z obleegh: [Global Notice] Hello chatters, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. 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Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T10:13:54Z aklo: [Global Notice] Hello chatters, freenode will be undergoing maintenance 3 hours from now. Please disconnect from this network, connect to irc.quakenet.org, and join #Quakenet for updates, otherwise, you may be k-lined permanently from freenode. Thank you. -freenode staff 2020-03-03T10:13:55Z aklo left #lisp 2020-03-03T10:13:55Z p_l has set mode +r 2020-03-03T10:14:00Z phoe: It is a breaking change, but otherwise we're not going to make it. 2020-03-03T10:14:26Z phoe: Registering Freenode accounts is going to at least slow the spambots down. 2020-03-03T10:14:55Z _death: trivial-spam-prevention 2020-03-03T10:14:55Z oxum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-03T10:15:11Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:15:21Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | TEMPORARY REGISTRATION REQUIREMENT IN EFFECT | | ASDF 3.3.4 2020-03-03T10:15:36Z p_l has set mode -b *!*@111.30.91.10 2020-03-03T10:15:37Z p_l has set mode -b *!*@236-230-121-168.internet58.com.br 2020-03-03T10:15:39Z p_l has set mode -b *!*@116.225.38.167 2020-03-03T10:15:40Z p_l has set mode -b *!*@223.73.61.1 2020-03-03T10:15:41Z p_l has set mode -b *!*@113.116.21.248 2020-03-03T10:15:42Z p_l has set mode -b *!*@39.188.250.31 2020-03-03T10:16:15Z p_l: phoe: I happen to agree :/ 2020-03-03T10:17:26Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:18:17Z phoe: minion: hello 2020-03-03T10:18:17Z minion: what's up? 2020-03-03T10:18:22Z phoe: Colleen: hello 2020-03-03T10:18:23Z Colleen: Hi! 2020-03-03T10:18:31Z phoe: the bots are still around, good 2020-03-03T10:18:50Z Shinmera: Setting +r doesn't kick unregs that are already in the channel, anyway 2020-03-03T10:18:55Z p_l: do we have any good option for helping people without account, other than /invite? 2020-03-03T10:19:13Z p_l: Shinmera: good to know, never tested that though I think we ran +r for some time? 2020-03-03T10:19:44Z p_l: I think back when there was a big porn spam campaign, before I implemented the rather weird mute masks 2020-03-03T10:21:47Z jackdaniel: wait what? /me disconnects and joines the quakenet :) 2020-03-03T10:21:49Z phoe: Shinmera: oh! that's good 2020-03-03T10:22:42Z phoe: p_l: so maybe we could set +m instead, since it prevents spamposts instead 2020-03-03T10:23:06Z ChanServ has set mode +v jackdaniel 2020-03-03T10:23:13Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T10:23:33Z eli_oat quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-03T10:24:20Z phoe: wait though... huh 2020-03-03T10:24:32Z p_l: phoe: +m silences everyone not voiced, unless I could swing it through extban syntax 2020-03-03T10:24:52Z phoe: wish there was a mode that only let registered users speak 2020-03-03T10:24:53Z p_l: a channel with only ops is a sad channel 2020-03-03T10:25:08Z phoe: but everyone read the channel 2020-03-03T10:26:01Z p_l: ok, testing 2020-03-03T10:27:39Z p_l: here goes nothing 2020-03-03T10:27:41Z p_l has set mode +m 2020-03-03T10:28:14Z p_l has set mode -r 2020-03-03T10:28:35Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 2020-03-03T10:28:49Z jackdaniel: hardly useful, unless its only two ops and me are going to talk ,p 2020-03-03T10:29:17Z jackdaniel: +r seems better (and possible to work out by registering an account) 2020-03-03T10:30:15Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 2020-03-03T10:30:19Z jackdaniel: I like it, nobody disagrees ,-) 2020-03-03T10:30:34Z p_l: I have a strange suspicion that it muted everyone instead of just unregistered 2020-03-03T10:30:55Z jackdaniel: that's how +m does afaik (all except +v/+h/+o are muted) 2020-03-03T10:31:14Z p_l: jackdaniel: it's supposed to work with extbans 2020-03-03T10:31:24Z p_l has set mode -m 2020-03-03T10:31:27Z p_l has set mode +r 2020-03-03T10:32:43Z p_l: so a +m $-a is supposed to mute only unregistered 2020-03-03T10:33:23Z phoe: test 2020-03-03T10:33:26Z p_l: wildcards worked in the past 2020-03-03T10:33:41Z phoe: I am registered, and I can talk 2020-03-03T10:33:42Z p_l: phoe: too late, went back to +r 2020-03-03T10:33:46Z phoe: oh, okay 2020-03-03T10:34:05Z p_l: cause I could only see jackdaniel talking while I was de-oped 2020-03-03T10:35:06Z eeeeeta: you mean +q $~a, surely 2020-03-03T10:36:04Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel 2020-03-03T10:36:06Z p_l: eeeeeta: yeah, just found it 2020-03-03T10:36:10Z jackdaniel has set mode -r 2020-03-03T10:36:14Z p_l: it's been years since I did that 2020-03-03T10:36:15Z jackdaniel has set mode +q $~a 2020-03-03T10:36:24Z jackdaniel has set mode -o jackdaniel 2020-03-03T10:36:25Z eeeeeta: and use +z to direct messages to ops I think 2020-03-03T10:36:34Z ChanServ has set mode -v jackdaniel 2020-03-03T10:36:37Z jackdaniel: voila 2020-03-03T10:36:40Z p_l: ops see quieted users anyway, iirc 2020-03-03T10:37:57Z Shinmera: IRC modes are about the most obscure way to handle permissions 2020-03-03T10:38:13Z Shinmera: or incomprehensible, rather 2020-03-03T10:38:24Z jackdaniel hints at chmod 400 ← 2020-03-03T10:38:44Z jackdaniel: give me four hundred permissions! 2020-03-03T10:39:11Z p_l: octal syntax for permissions is pretty comprehensible - when the environment is used to octal 2020-03-03T10:39:16Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:39:29Z jackdaniel: everything is comprehensible when you get used to it 2020-03-03T10:39:42Z jackdaniel: (of course not everything everything, but you know what I mean) 2020-03-03T10:40:34Z p_l: octal is a historic accident due to high usage of octal for bitmasks that was well understood among users at the time 2020-03-03T10:41:25Z p_l: with systems that arrived appropriately later, there's no octal masks in use (i.e. NT) 2020-03-03T10:43:03Z oxum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-03T10:43:16Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:43:36Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T10:44:36Z jgkamat quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2020-03-03T10:47:06Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:49:46Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T10:50:40Z lieven: nice progression in programming languages too. in MacLisp the default read base is 8, in C only for numbers starting with 0. 2020-03-03T10:54:16Z p_l: when word sizes were divisible by 3, it was very simple to use octal 2020-03-03T10:54:39Z p_l: to be honest, hexadecimal to me is much less readable when it comes to understanding a bitmask 2020-03-03T10:54:55Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:55:16Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:55:53Z no-defun-allowed: In discrete mathematics today, the lecturer stepped us through octal→binary conversion. That was quite surreal. 2020-03-03T10:56:44Z no-defun-allowed quit (Quit: killed) 2020-03-03T10:56:45Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-03-03T10:56:46Z nonlinear[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-03-03T10:56:50Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-03T10:56:51Z katco quit (Quit: killed) 2020-03-03T10:56:55Z metabyt[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-03-03T10:56:56Z Jachy quit (Quit: killed) 2020-03-03T10:57:05Z LdBeth quit (Quit: killed) 2020-03-03T10:57:13Z Irenes[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-03-03T10:58:43Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:58:53Z LdBeth joined #lisp 2020-03-03T10:59:36Z lieven: it is nice for bit twiddling code that one's complement machines are dead so you can assume one standard representation 2020-03-03T11:00:21Z tomaw_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:03:30Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T11:03:35Z no-defun-allowed joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:03:36Z no-defun-allowed: Not x86? That has lots of prefixes. 2020-03-03T11:04:36Z ljavorsk__ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:05:28Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T11:05:30Z _death: did you know? the x86 is an octal machine 2020-03-03T11:05:59Z _death: http://www.dabo.de/ccc99/www.camp.ccc.de/radio/help.txt 2020-03-03T11:06:58Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, it really likes its groups of 8 too. 2020-03-03T11:08:23Z tomaw quit (Ping timeout: 633 seconds) 2020-03-03T11:09:06Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T11:10:25Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-03T11:12:14Z eeeeeta quit (Quit: Gateway shutdown) 2020-03-03T11:12:24Z eeeeeta joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:13:34Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:14:30Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T11:15:58Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T11:16:11Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:16:31Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:17:06Z ljavorsk__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T11:24:44Z Southy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T11:25:03Z eeeeeta quit (Quit: Gateway shutdown) 2020-03-03T11:25:29Z eeeeeta joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:26:04Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:36:15Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:40:45Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-03T11:43:43Z salva quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-03T11:48:02Z ravenx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-03T11:49:22Z ravenx joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:50:39Z v_m_v_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:53:38Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2020-03-03T11:54:36Z Irenes[m] joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:54:36Z nonlinear[m] joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:54:36Z unl0ckd joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:54:36Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:54:36Z katco joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:54:43Z metabyt[m] joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:54:43Z ak5 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:55:43Z gko_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T11:59:18Z xuxuru quit (Quit: xuxuru) 2020-03-03T12:00:25Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T12:00:53Z ljavorsk__ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:01:37Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:01:54Z vidak`: just learned how to start SBCL, and then connect successfully to it in EMACS SLIME, all in the context of using croatoan, the common lisp library for binding to ncurses 2020-03-03T12:02:12Z vidak`: i can finally breathe a sigh of relief: i can have unbuffered terminal input :3 2020-03-03T12:02:40Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T12:03:43Z v_m_v_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T12:08:53Z flamebeard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T12:09:39Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:10:26Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:13:23Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:14:39Z flamebeard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-03T12:14:41Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:17:58Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T12:18:46Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:18:48Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-03T12:19:03Z ljavorsk__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2020-03-03T12:19:19Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T12:20:42Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:21:56Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:22:01Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:22:39Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:25:40Z Duuqnd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T12:28:57Z marusich joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:29:51Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T12:31:02Z marusich quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-03T12:33:53Z xkapastel joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:35:19Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:35:32Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T12:36:11Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-03T12:39:28Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:41:30Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:41:40Z jmercouris: what is the time complexity of SORT? 2020-03-03T12:41:40Z minion: jmercouris, memo from phoe: 00:19 < pjb> Why does this jmercouris guy always log out before getting an answer? 2020-03-03T12:42:49Z jmercouris: lol 2020-03-03T12:42:58Z jmercouris: I don't log out on purpose, my IRC client crashes frequently :-D 2020-03-03T12:43:25Z jmercouris: I'm using Circe, and it seems to disconnect on Emacs 27 2020-03-03T12:44:21Z jackdaniel: it is not defined what is its time complexity, it may be a bubblesort for what it's worth ,) 2020-03-03T12:44:27Z jackdaniel: usually it is a quicksort though 2020-03-03T12:44:51Z jmercouris: OK, thank you 2020-03-03T12:45:11Z jackdaniel: so n² in a nasty case, down to n*log(n) 2020-03-03T12:45:44Z jackdaniel: and since you ask about time, the time unit is nano-lispconds 2020-03-03T12:45:50Z jmercouris: 11 2020-03-03T12:51:20Z barryfm joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:54:56Z flamebeard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T12:56:55Z lucasb joined #lisp 2020-03-03T12:59:49Z barryfm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-03T13:00:09Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-03T13:00:49Z beach: jmercouris: Are you sorting a list or a vector? 2020-03-03T13:00:50Z _death: on sbcl, it appears to be merge sort for lists and heapsort for vectors 2020-03-03T13:01:01Z jmercouris: A list 2020-03-03T13:01:15Z jmercouris: beach: a list, I was just curious, :-) 2020-03-03T13:01:22Z beach: Then, with merge sort, it is O(n log n). 2020-03-03T13:03:14Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:07:27Z Posterdati: hi 2020-03-03T13:07:34Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:07:53Z beach: Hello Posterdati. 2020-03-03T13:08:06Z flamebeard quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-03T13:09:10Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:10:47Z jdz: jmercouris: I bet it's not Circe that crashes (if anything it would be Emacs crashing). Maybe instead of "crashes" you mean loses connection, in which case I'd rather blame "gnutls". 2020-03-03T13:13:32Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:15:38Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T13:20:53Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:21:22Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:22:40Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:22:46Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:25:36Z panico joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:27:09Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T13:27:34Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:29:01Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T13:29:47Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-03T13:33:05Z mingus quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-03-03T13:36:30Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T13:36:51Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T13:38:13Z flip214: Are there any efforts (past or current) to get bignums working in https://github.com/takagi/cl-cuda ? 2020-03-03T13:42:39Z v_m_v_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:43:01Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T13:44:19Z Bike: like how, working with vectors of fixnums and translating them to/from bignums when you pass into/out of cuda? 2020-03-03T13:45:49Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-03T13:50:19Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:51:02Z flip214: yeah, for example... I'd like to offload some bignum calculations 2020-03-03T13:51:28Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T13:51:52Z eli_oat9 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:52:17Z eli_oat9 quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-03T13:52:44Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:52:54Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-03T13:53:07Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-03T13:58:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:00:20Z luis: Does anyone use ASDF with logical pathnames? I'd like to set up my source like SBCL's SYS:SRC;**;*.* but ASDF turns them into physical pathnames ASAP. 2020-03-03T14:02:05Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:03:14Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:03:49Z oxum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-03T14:04:01Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:05:09Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-03T14:08:19Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-03T14:08:28Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:09:08Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:09:11Z oxum_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-03T14:09:39Z rj0d quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-03T14:10:01Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:12:57Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-03T14:14:04Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T14:15:33Z Shinmera: luis: I asked about that for portacle. If I remember correctly it's not really possible. 2020-03-03T14:15:40Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:15:40Z jibanes joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:16:14Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:20:22Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T14:21:20Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:21:50Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:23:46Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T14:23:59Z luis: That and logical pathnames being restricted to a-z, digits and hyphen is a bit of a shame. 2020-03-03T14:25:28Z jibanes joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:25:32Z jackdaniel: I always thought, that if I have enough time some day I would want to propose a CDR which extends logical pathname specification and clarifies some undefined behaviors 2020-03-03T14:25:54Z jackdaniel: that and an in-image virtual filesystem 2020-03-03T14:26:02Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T14:26:47Z jackdaniel: (extensible one, so i.e a programmer could implement a few methods and voila, their package has a file interface ,) 2020-03-03T14:27:15Z p_l: unfortunately, while pathnames themselves are maximal implementation of pathnames, logical pathnames are closer to the minimum side :/ 2020-03-03T14:27:24Z p_l: despite it not being necessary 2020-03-03T14:32:21Z v_m_v_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T14:32:56Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:33:44Z Shinmera: luis: logical pathnames being forced to one version of case really makes them impossible to use generally. 2020-03-03T14:34:54Z Shinmera: I think a library to replace pathnames with a more useful system (using modern day assumptions) would be great. 2020-03-03T14:37:23Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:37:28Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-03T14:39:16Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T14:43:51Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-03-03T14:46:18Z p_l: Just something that would support full scope of pathnames would be good 2020-03-03T14:48:45Z luis: The case insensitivity doesn't bother me too much because I have to live with Windows anyway. 2020-03-03T14:49:05Z edgar-rft: AFAIK UIOP (part of ASDF) was meant as an attempt to replace logical pathnames 2020-03-03T14:52:39Z luis: edgar-rft: how so? 2020-03-03T14:58:02Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7) 2020-03-03T14:58:54Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:02:25Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T15:03:29Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:03:35Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-03T15:04:03Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-03T15:04:10Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:06:16Z eli_oat quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T15:07:31Z madrik quit (Quit: Dinner) 2020-03-03T15:09:13Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:10:17Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:10:28Z Shinmera: luis: Well it makes it impossible to use on linux if you have a directory that's not lowercase 2020-03-03T15:13:12Z luis: Shinmera: yeah, that's terrible. 2020-03-03T15:14:49Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T15:17:53Z p_l: luis: beware case-sensitive windows installs 2020-03-03T15:18:00Z p_l: Yes, they exist 2020-03-03T15:22:02Z p_l: Also, I wonder how much code would break if I made a lisp implementation faithfully represent full NT pathnames... 2020-03-03T15:22:55Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T15:24:15Z p_l: (all ANSI CL pathname components are present on Windows) 2020-03-03T15:24:22Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:26:09Z eli_oat quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-03T15:28:34Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-03T15:31:46Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:36:07Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-03T15:36:16Z whiteline_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T15:36:19Z flamebeard quit 2020-03-03T15:36:47Z whiteline_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:39:22Z pjb joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:44:07Z didi joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:46:49Z didi: Using SLIME and a fresh SBLC instance, why does C-c C-l work for loading a file with `require' forms but C-c C-k complain about non designated packages? 2020-03-03T15:47:14Z didi: s/SBLC/SBCL 2020-03-03T15:47:27Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:49:27Z peterhil joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:51:21Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-03T15:53:36Z ecraven quit (Quit: bye) 2020-03-03T15:54:10Z ecraven joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:54:18Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:57:00Z tomaw_ is now known as tomaw 2020-03-03T15:57:38Z mingus joined #lisp 2020-03-03T15:58:34Z _death: the require is evaluated during load time, but not during compile-time (you could use eval-when to make it work) 2020-03-03T15:58:50Z didi: _death: Thank you. 2020-03-03T16:00:14Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:00:26Z eli_oat quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-03T16:00:50Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:01:30Z momozor joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:07:32Z momozor quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T16:10:43Z gmeister joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:16:07Z rj0d quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-03T16:16:33Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:17:44Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:18:45Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-03T16:19:55Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:20:22Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: there's IOlib if you want better pathnames 2020-03-03T16:21:26Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-03T16:21:54Z Shinmera: It carries too much other baggage and depends on a C library. 2020-03-03T16:24:28Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T16:24:54Z dale joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:25:41Z eli_oat quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2020-03-03T16:26:37Z gmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T16:29:09Z gmeister joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:30:17Z gruffmeister joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:33:51Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:34:53Z gruffmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T16:36:07Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:36:48Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T16:38:19Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:43:52Z _paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T16:44:20Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:45:39Z eli_oat quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2020-03-03T16:46:14Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:51:15Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-03T16:51:15Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-03T16:52:46Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-03T16:55:04Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T16:57:23Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-03T16:57:54Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T16:59:06Z LiamH joined #lisp 2020-03-03T17:02:07Z EvW1 quit (Quit: EvW1) 2020-03-03T17:03:10Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-03T17:05:35Z gmeister quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4) 2020-03-03T17:17:12Z mindthelion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T17:22:36Z HDurer joined #lisp 2020-03-03T17:33:12Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2020-03-03T17:35:57Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-03T17:40:26Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-03T17:41:31Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T17:41:51Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-03T17:42:46Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T17:44:44Z gareppa joined #lisp 2020-03-03T17:45:29Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T17:47:35Z didi: So I read and wondered: Is CMUCL still around? 2020-03-03T17:51:05Z Bike: https://www.cons.org/cmucl/ last snapshot back in june, so sure. 2020-03-03T17:51:45Z didi: Bike: Interesting, thanks. 2020-03-03T17:53:11Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2020-03-03T18:01:27Z xkapastel joined #lisp 2020-03-03T18:03:12Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-03T18:06:04Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-03-03T18:10:05Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-03T18:12:10Z phoe: actually 2020-03-03T18:12:11Z phoe: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cmucl/cmucl/blob/master/src/general-info/release-21e.md 2020-03-03T18:12:17Z phoe: > Raymond Toy authored 2 weeks ago 2020-03-03T18:14:24Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T18:14:50Z mingus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T18:16:14Z efm_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T18:16:16Z efm_ quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-03T18:16:18Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T18:16:47Z efm_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T18:17:25Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T18:19:00Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-03T18:19:25Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-03T18:22:20Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T18:22:47Z xantoz_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T18:24:33Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-03T18:27:59Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-03-03T18:39:56Z efm_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-03-03T18:40:12Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-03T18:48:52Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-03T18:49:07Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-03-03T18:52:37Z luni joined #lisp 2020-03-03T19:00:19Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-03-03T19:08:57Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-03-03T19:16:17Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T19:17:36Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-03T19:19:26Z mangul quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-03T19:19:31Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-03T19:19:48Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-03-03T19:22:46Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T19:25:48Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T19:26:19Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-03T19:29:08Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T19:30:21Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-03T19:31:52Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-03T19:33:10Z xantoz_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-03T19:38:12Z luni left #lisp 2020-03-03T19:42:52Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-03T19:43:31Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2020-03-03T19:43:35Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T19:44:22Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T19:45:09Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-03T19:45:09Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-03T19:45:27Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-03T19:46:23Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-03-03T19:50:01Z Cymew: It used to be my main lisp, and I liked it quite a bit. Kind of fun to hear it mentioned again. 2020-03-03T19:51:15Z dlowe: Shinmera: depending on a C library is the price of living on a C-hosted environment 2020-03-03T19:51:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-03T19:52:07Z jackdaniel: nerverless many libraries work without any changes on mezzano, unless they depend on ffi 2020-03-03T19:52:42Z jackdaniel: (as an example of benefits from using "pure" common lisp -- I personaly have no problem with well written bindings) 2020-03-03T19:53:05Z dlowe: I can imagine if a mezzano backend were written for iolib, libfixposix wouldn't be an issue :p 2020-03-03T19:56:18Z Jesin joined #lisp 2020-03-03T19:59:09Z Shinmera: dlowe: It's very possible to eliminate such dependencies. 2020-03-03T20:01:06Z emacsomancer quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2020-03-03T20:01:21Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:01:36Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:01:55Z srji quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T20:02:09Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:02:21Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.2)) 2020-03-03T20:02:50Z frodef quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-03T20:04:00Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-03-03T20:05:14Z vhost- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-03T20:05:16Z p_l: we could also encourage implementations to provide better own abstractions to be used by things like IOlib 2020-03-03T20:05:28Z vhost- joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:05:28Z vhost- quit (Changing host) 2020-03-03T20:05:28Z vhost- joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:05:30Z frodef joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:07:26Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T20:07:28Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:18:19Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:22:50Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T20:23:46Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: the C library is pretty much necessary, unless you can convince implementors to include POSIX FFI bindings 2020-03-03T20:24:29Z xantoz joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:24:45Z dlowe: I think Shinmera is suggesting going straight to kernel syscalls 2020-03-03T20:25:11Z fe[nl]ix: that works only on Linux 2020-03-03T20:25:36Z fe[nl]ix: all other operating systems place the ABI compatibility boundary in the libc 2020-03-03T20:25:48Z fe[nl]ix: including BSDs, OSX, Windows 2020-03-03T20:25:48Z Shinmera: I am suggesting not using a library that requires C stuff for something that's just a new pathname implementation. 2020-03-03T20:26:14Z fe[nl]ix: you need C stuff to access the filesystem 2020-03-03T20:26:21Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:26:43Z fe[nl]ix: including some function-like accessors which are allowed by POSIX to be defined as C macros 2020-03-03T20:26:56Z fe[nl]ix: so you can't access them using FFI unless there's a wrapper 2020-03-03T20:27:31Z p_l: you don't need C except for grovelling the costants on Windows 2020-03-03T20:27:57Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-03T20:28:32Z p_l: as all interface libraries are explicitly language-agnostic (and even if they use C internally, it's fully hidden from you, including lack of linkage to C runtime) 2020-03-03T20:29:44Z fe[nl]ix: you'll have to reimplement S_ISDIR & co. 2020-03-03T20:29:51Z fe[nl]ix: which is doable just a lot of maintenance 2020-03-03T20:30:33Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-03-03T20:32:02Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:32:51Z p_l: fortunately S_ISDIR isn't part of the API 2020-03-03T20:33:12Z p_l: there's a bitmask field 2020-03-03T20:33:17Z p_l: but no macros 2020-03-03T20:33:47Z p_l: so you test a bitmask against the value of FILE_ATTRIBUTE_DIRECTORY 2020-03-03T20:35:35Z p_l: so it's a bit saner than going through libc 2020-03-03T20:36:22Z pjb: p_l: but the value of S_ISDIR is C implementation dependendant! How do you find it? 2020-03-03T20:36:27Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-03T20:36:35Z pjb: (without relying on a C compiler on a given target). 2020-03-03T20:36:39Z jackdaniel: given that these operating systems all have libc which gives you necessary functionality, and that it is possible o have an uniform interface to it, I'd say that it is saner to have such interface 2020-03-03T20:37:08Z p_l: jackdaniel: the problem is that the libc might not be first class API on some platforms 2020-03-03T20:37:08Z pjb: What's documented, on the other hand, is the syscall API of the kernel… 2020-03-03T20:37:17Z pjb: So instead of using libc, write your own libcl. 2020-03-03T20:37:31Z pjb: (in CL, you just need a way to syscall). 2020-03-03T20:37:38Z p_l: arguably, the only one major platform that has libc as second-class citizen is Windows 2020-03-03T20:37:42Z p_l: but it's a pretty big platform 2020-03-03T20:37:56Z p_l: I have no idea on how the API interface goes with libSystem.dyld on OSX 2020-03-03T20:38:05Z pjb: p_l: even amongst C programmers, there's a movement to avoid libc, and use linux syscalls directly! 2020-03-03T20:38:25Z p_l: but it's OSFMK derived, so probably libSystem is full of libc-isms 2020-03-03T20:38:34Z pjb: p_l: it's more fun, since it's not a unix system, under, but a Mach OS. So you don't syscall, you send messages to the microkernel :-) 2020-03-03T20:38:53Z p_l: pjb: and on Windows, libc is second class, limited API 2020-03-03T20:39:29Z pjb: p_l: Also, libc ≠ POSIX. 2020-03-03T20:39:43Z p_l: that too, as well 2020-03-03T20:39:59Z Odin-: "Going the easy way around isn't pure enough, so let's do tons of difficult work to try and keep up with outside systems that are often a very swiftly moving target!" 2020-03-03T20:40:19Z pjb: So, basically CL implementations would have to support 3 kernels, Mach, MS-Windows-NT, and Linux. 2020-03-03T20:40:21Z xantoz quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2020-03-03T20:40:36Z Odin- glances nervously in the direction of the BSDs. 2020-03-03T20:40:39Z fe[nl]ix: BSD developers consider libc as the ABI so they have in the past removed syscalls and reimplementing libc functions 2020-03-03T20:40:55Z p_l: though I'm pretty sure POSIX specifies a libc that contains certain interfaces (mostly compatible with ANSI/ISO), another set of "syscalls" which might be actually implemented by another library (passing to message passing interfaces) 2020-03-03T20:41:25Z pjb: yes, POSIX doesn't impose an architecture. It can be all libraries. 2020-03-03T20:41:27Z xantoz joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:41:34Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: from my understanding, POSIX spec doesn't require that various low-level interfaces are "syscalls", it can be a library 2020-03-03T20:41:41Z Odin-: POSIX is defined in terms of a C interface, yes. 2020-03-03T20:42:01Z p_l: and I'm pretty sure someone even made one for linux (or maybe some other OS) in the form of "libsyscall" or something like that 2020-03-03T20:42:05Z pjb: Odin-: more or less. We could define in a chapter of POSIX a CL API. 2020-03-03T20:42:19Z p_l: Odin-: there's also FORTRAN API, iirc 2020-03-03T20:42:19Z Odin-: It then also defines a bunch of command line utilities on top of that. 2020-03-03T20:42:56Z p_l: anyway, going through libc on Windows means you are relegated to second class citizen, and in fact might actually mean a more moving target 2020-03-03T20:42:57Z jackdaniel: in other words, supporting posix is a matter of having ffi wrapper, what's precisely what IOlib does ;) I'd file a bug on Windows bugtracker and call it a day, i.e "[bug][critical] Windows is not a real POSIX" ;) 2020-03-03T20:43:21Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:43:30Z pjb: On the other hand, this is what makes the success of unix (POSIX) systems, the command line user interface. Other systems were way more inconvenient to use. You couldn't compile and run programs like that, willy-nilly… 2020-03-03T20:43:40Z jackdaniel: since windows eats linux (they even linux working there), it won't be a problem 2020-03-03T20:43:59Z jackdaniel: even have* 2020-03-03T20:44:09Z pjb: It was more like iOS, where you needed sysadmins to install the commands for you, with authorisations, etc (not code signatures at the time, but it was as inconvenient). 2020-03-03T20:44:16Z p_l: jackdaniel: if you actually managed to get deep enough to put a bug on internal bugtracker, and someone with a grey enough beard read it, you might end up with a long rant on why POSIX interfaces sucks :P 2020-03-03T20:44:29Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:44:30Z Odin-: pjb, p_l: Dunno, at least some of the relevant standards include C header snippets as the definitive material. 2020-03-03T20:44:52Z Odin-: POSIX is crap. 2020-03-03T20:44:54Z Odin-: So is C. 2020-03-03T20:44:56Z jackdaniel: p_l: that's not my point. either way, since we talk about outstanding operating systems, here is windows93: http://www.windows93.net/ and I'll stop offtopic on my part 2020-03-03T20:45:14Z pjb: Odin-: anyways, we should aim higher, with a lispOS… 2020-03-03T20:45:32Z Odin-: pjb: Yes, but it's still going to be useful to run a Lisp on those other OSes. 2020-03-03T20:45:43Z Odin-: And those might not always be pure Lisp all the way down. 2020-03-03T20:46:13Z Odin- goes to get his food. 2020-03-03T20:46:24Z fe[nl]ix: I consider win32.dll to be the equivalent of "libc" for all intents and purposes 2020-03-03T20:46:59Z fe[nl]ix: direct syscalls is nice but in practice it would only work on Linux 2020-03-03T20:47:13Z pjb: Odin-: we can have lisp implementations targetting POSIX systems indeed. ecl is more like that than other implementations. We could have CL implementation to produce DLLs and shared libraries usable from C. 2020-03-03T20:47:39Z jackdaniel: libecl.so and libecl.dll are usable from C 2020-03-03T20:48:07Z jackdaniel: I'm sure that they would be even usable from sbcl via CFFI :-) 2020-03-03T20:48:20Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:48:44Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T20:49:04Z dlowe: Right, so to summarize, POSIX is crap, therefore libfixposix. QED. 2020-03-03T20:49:10Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: OneCore.lib/dll for recent windows 2020-03-03T20:49:38Z pjb: Yep. 2020-03-03T20:52:36Z fe[nl]ix: that said, if SBCL used LLVM, you could have wrappers for C macros that get inlined in Lisp code 2020-03-03T20:52:37Z copec: I like the unix processor model with C. I think it is the lowest common denominator to have totally separate software systems share 2020-03-03T20:53:17Z fe[nl]ix: a bit like Rust and C++ functions can be cross-inlined in the IR 2020-03-03T20:53:35Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-03T20:54:06Z fe[nl]ix: that would be cool and make libfixposix mostly unnecessary 2020-03-03T20:54:08Z copec: It would be nice if there were some type of standard low level data structures that could work between different languages without conversion 2020-03-03T20:54:31Z Odin-: WASM is shooting for something sorta-kinda like that. 2020-03-03T20:54:36Z p_l: copec: VMS and WinNT did that 2020-03-03T20:54:37Z fe[nl]ix: that's what C structs are 2020-03-03T20:54:39Z Odin-: But that's not on-metal. 2020-03-03T20:54:48Z fe[nl]ix: it's just that they are defined in C 2020-03-03T20:54:50Z cg505 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2020-03-03T20:54:56Z copec: I guess in terms of Unix/C, that interface IS C like fe[nl]ix said 2020-03-03T20:54:57Z didi left #lisp 2020-03-03T20:55:10Z p_l: well, WinNT is much more C-like, but a) the interfaces are designed mostly so that you don't need C b) for complex interfaces there's COM 2020-03-03T20:55:37Z Odin- would be delighted if he could compile CL code to run on a microcontroller. 2020-03-03T20:56:26Z copec: I think the best bet for that is to write a cross-compiler in a CL as you dev it 2020-03-03T20:56:27Z jackdaniel: Odin-: subset of it, or a whole thing (eval included)? 2020-03-03T20:56:33Z p_l: depending on size of the microcontroller, you might fit some... 2020-03-03T20:56:37Z fe[nl]ix: I look forward for a libc whose API is defined in some IDL language, which is then translated to various languages (including C headers) 2020-03-03T20:56:43Z cg505 joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:56:49Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-03T20:57:31Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: WinNT is... getting close there? I mean, there's a bunch of stuff which will remain defined through C headers, but all the advanced complex APIs are in IDL (including DirectX, WPF, etc.) 2020-03-03T20:57:32Z Odin-: jackdaniel: I'd be fine with a subset. There's an interpreter for a slightly-off subset that can run on an ATmega328, which is an interesting toy. 2020-03-03T20:57:55Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-03T20:58:03Z fe[nl]ix: I need a C compiler because libc headers are typically a nightmare to parse 2020-03-03T20:58:44Z p_l: yeah, though at least those structs are not going to change on you :V 2020-03-03T20:59:28Z fe[nl]ix: they do change across architecture 2020-03-03T20:59:48Z fe[nl]ix: perhaps we're complaining too much 2020-03-03T21:00:18Z p_l: across architectures, yes. But even then not much, afaik (due to rather specific typing approach in MS source code) 2020-03-03T21:00:21Z fe[nl]ix: Go developers just redefined everything manually 2020-03-03T21:00:23Z ebrasca: copec: I think there is one cros copiler from llvm to cl 2020-03-03T21:00:52Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: scymtym wrote C preprocessor https://github.com/scymtym/language.c on top a grammer I have written in esrap 2020-03-03T21:00:57Z fe[nl]ix: and put the burden of doing that on whoever wanted to port Go to their OS/arch combo 2020-03-03T21:00:58Z jackdaniel: grammar 2020-03-03T21:01:47Z jackdaniel: (which was also cleaned up by him) 2020-03-03T21:03:04Z Odin-: fe[nl]ix: Yeah, but Go seems to have a manpower problem on the opposite end of the scale. 2020-03-03T21:03:59Z fe[nl]ix: exactly 2020-03-03T21:04:21Z fe[nl]ix: if you have too many contributors you don't need general solutions 2020-03-03T21:04:38Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-03T21:05:20Z fe[nl]ix: libfixposix can be an annoying requirement but it works very well and it's easy to maintain 2020-03-03T21:06:50Z p_l: Go, most importantly, started with an already ported custom runtime before they wrote first line of compiler 2020-03-03T21:06:53Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-03T21:07:20Z p_l: *then* they slowly rewrote the C parts (that weren't ANSI/ISO C anyway) 2020-03-03T21:07:38Z fe[nl]ix: Well, they ported it from Plan9 to Linux 2020-03-03T21:07:57Z fe[nl]ix: the other operating systems came afterwards 2020-03-03T21:08:13Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: they used a pre-existing ported code, iirc 2020-03-03T21:08:45Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2020-03-03T21:08:46Z p_l: 8c as well as Plan9 runtime libs were already ported to Linux, Windows and Mac 2020-03-03T21:09:00Z fe[nl]ix: ah ok 2020-03-03T21:09:20Z p_l: 6c wasn't, but I don't remember if they published a version of it, but then, 6c differences from 8c were... minor 2020-03-03T21:09:41Z p_l: 8 = code for 386-compatible, 6 = code for amd64 2020-03-03T21:11:09Z p_l: ARM was 5, ppc32 was q, ppc64 9, SPARC k, MIPS be v, and MIPS le 0 2020-03-03T21:11:12Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-03T21:12:24Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-03T21:12:48Z Odin-: Plan9 was a ... thing. 2020-03-03T21:13:06Z p_l: Octopus was... thingier 2020-03-03T21:13:08Z jackdaniel: I think that this discussion drifted from lisp a while ago 2020-03-03T21:13:14Z jackdaniel: towards #lispcafe :) 2020-03-03T21:13:16Z Odin-: Fair enough. 2020-03-03T21:14:28Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: anyway, they way I see it, perhaps iolib should promote better interfaces to be packaged as part of the implementation, so that libfixposix is needed less (or might be, in fact, embedded in the implementation) 2020-03-03T21:15:17Z p_l: and avoid C runtime interfaces on platforms where they are not, in fact, native 2020-03-03T21:16:22Z dlowe notes that sbcl itself has C parts due exactly to this issue. 2020-03-03T21:16:42Z dlowe: Now using those C parts to expose a full posix interface sounds like a worthy project. 2020-03-03T21:16:53Z dlowe: if the sbcl project would have it 2020-03-03T21:17:53Z jackdaniel: do you mean sb-posix package? 2020-03-03T21:18:49Z dlowe: that's where it would go, sure. But I mean taking the bits from libfixposix and integrating them so that libfixposix isn't needed. 2020-03-03T21:20:18Z fe[nl]ix: This has been discussed already 2020-03-03T21:20:22Z fe[nl]ix: sb-posix is very high-level and slow 2020-03-03T21:20:48Z fe[nl]ix: it conses a lot because it deals with Lisp objects, path names etc... 2020-03-03T21:21:59Z dlowe: If the implementation were in the C runtime instead, it wouldn't need to be high-level or slow 2020-03-03T21:22:11Z fe[nl]ix: you also need an package with FFI-only functions 2020-03-03T21:22:50Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-03T21:23:42Z fe[nl]ix: anyway, we're talking about standardising a Posix interface 2020-03-03T21:23:46Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-03T21:23:49Z fe[nl]ix: and I'm not going there 2020-03-03T21:25:22Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-03T21:27:49Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2020-03-03T21:27:53Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-03T21:31:02Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 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2020-03-03T23:33:22Z phoe: and compatible with optima 2020-03-03T23:33:53Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-03T23:34:22Z loli: trivia is quite nice 2020-03-03T23:41:07Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-03-03T23:43:16Z jmercouris: OK 2020-03-03T23:43:21Z jmercouris: thanks for opinions 2020-03-03T23:43:27Z jmercouris: I guess trivia it shall stay 2020-03-03T23:43:34Z jmercouris: goodnight everyone 2020-03-03T23:43:35Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-03T23:48:55Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-03T23:52:30Z phoe: good night 2020-03-03T23:57:16Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T00:00:06Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-04T00:04:28Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T00:06:39Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-04T00:06:51Z pfdietz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T00:07:03Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-04T00:18:46Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-04T00:21:00Z LiamH 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2020-03-04T05:53:49Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-03-04T05:58:57Z matzy_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T05:59:40Z matzy_: i have a dumb question. is it possible to use hunchentoot as just a simple back-end api that talks to a database and sends json data to a react front-end? 2020-03-04T06:00:20Z matzy_: like i dont need it to serve html pages or anything like that, just provide data for the front-end 2020-03-04T06:01:07Z snackoverflow joined #lisp 2020-03-04T06:01:47Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, you can tell hunchentoot to serve any data. 2020-03-04T06:02:17Z matzy_: is that what dispatchers are for? 2020-03-04T06:03:31Z oxum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-04T06:03:39Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T06:03:40Z no-defun-allowed: You can return any string from define-easy-handler, which can be JSON text. 2020-03-04T06:03:55Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T06:04:32Z matzy_: not to make you read even 25% of this, but this is basically what i want right? https://www.darkchestnut.com/2019/http-routing-libraries-hunchentoot/ 2020-03-04T06:04:33Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-04T06:04:39Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-04T06:05:40Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure, I don't write REST or whatever programs. 2020-03-04T06:05:52Z ebrasca` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T06:06:01Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-04T06:06:06Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T06:06:36Z no-defun-allowed: I write something like (define-easy-handler (foobar :uri "/foobar") (name) ...) and can pass NAME as a query parameter. 2020-03-04T06:06:40Z matzy_: ah ok 2020-03-04T06:07:16Z matzy_: so in your example, what if you have a big json object? 2020-03-04T06:07:26Z matzy_: just stays as one variable? 2020-03-04T06:07:45Z matzy_: does cl treat it as a string? or is this getting into clos 2020-03-04T06:07:54Z no-defun-allowed: Just return the string that you want to send. 2020-03-04T06:07:55Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-04T06:08:32Z no-defun-allowed: (and maybe set the content-type to represent what you are sending correctly.) 2020-03-04T06:10:46Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-04T06:12:02Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-04T06:12:56Z matzy_: ok awesome. thanks for the help 2020-03-04T06:13:04Z matzy_: i'll screw around some more 2020-03-04T06:13:19Z sauvin joined #lisp 2020-03-04T06:13:28Z matzy_: this language has a crazy high learning curve, but i love it at the same time 2020-03-04T06:13:54Z no-defun-allowed: You're likely approaching it wrong if it has a high learning curve. 2020-03-04T06:14:21Z sauvin quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-03-04T06:14:47Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe not wrong, sorry, but in a way that doesn't utilise what you find easy. 2020-03-04T06:14:49Z sauvin joined #lisp 2020-03-04T06:15:17Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-03-04T06:17:33Z matzy_: well i thought building a super simple api would solve that problem, but it really hasn;t 2020-03-04T06:17:49Z matzy_: i've been through the first 4 chapters of PCL which has helped some 2020-03-04T06:18:56Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-04T06:19:11Z saturn2: you can also write the http response to a stream, if you want 2020-03-04T06:19:27Z matzy_: But like I went to this site (seems just what im looking for), http://quickdocs.org/simple-routes/, and go to run the demo, and it tells me "The name "CL-WHO" does not designate any package 2020-03-04T06:20:04Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T06:20:24Z saturn2: something like (let ((stream (hunchentoot:send-headers))) (encode-json-to-stream stream data)) 2020-03-04T06:22:14Z saturn2: you probably need to load cl-who by (ql:quickload "cl-who") 2020-03-04T06:25:09Z matzy_: at the top the author has: 2020-03-04T06:25:12Z matzy_: *had: 2020-03-04T06:25:14Z matzy_: (defpackage :simpleroutes-demo (:use :common-lisp :hunchentoot :cl-who :simple-routes)) 2020-03-04T06:25:25Z matzy_: that doesn't load the packages via ql? 2020-03-04T06:26:34Z saturn2: no 2020-03-04T06:27:36Z matzy_: ahhhh ok 2020-03-04T06:28:08Z matzy_: i wonder why the author wouldnt include that in his demo 2020-03-04T06:28:51Z matzy_: should the ql loads come before or after the defpackage? 2020-03-04T06:29:40Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T06:31:05Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T06:31:19Z saturn2: the .asd file should be named the same as the system it defines so quicklisp can find it 2020-03-04T06:36:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T06:38:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-04T06:39:41Z pjb: matzy_: so, HTTP has been invented 30 years ago, and you still don't know it has nothing to do with HML? 2020-03-04T06:39:43Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-04T06:40:34Z matzy_: pjb no but from i was reading on the hunchentoot docs it was talking a lot about serving webpages, which i dont want it to do 2020-03-04T06:41:14Z matzy_: and that simple-routes repo makes no sense, it tells you to call an .asd file that doesn't exist 2020-03-04T06:41:25Z pjb: a web server just serves resources. URL are universal RESOURCE locators, not HTML web page locators. 2020-03-04T06:42:15Z matzy_: right, but the docs went straight into serving html pages back from routes 2020-03-04T06:42:24Z matzy_: and i need json, so i got a bit lost 2020-03-04T06:42:24Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T06:42:53Z matzy_: like i wish there was a stupid simple example i could see to grok it 2020-03-04T06:44:09Z pjb: matzy_: the first example in the doc!!!! https://edicl.github.io/hunchentoot/#teen-age 2020-03-04T06:44:19Z pjb: (hunchentoot:define-easy-handler (say-yo :uri "/yo") (name) (setf (hunchentoot:content-type*) "text/plain") (format nil "Hey~@[ ~A~]!" name)) 2020-03-04T06:44:19Z saturn2: matzy_: you can probably just do (ql:quickload "simpleroutes-demo") 2020-03-04T06:44:30Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-03-04T06:45:02Z pjb: s-text/plain-application/json- 2020-03-04T06:45:07Z matzy_: ok now that i did get working :) 2020-03-04T06:45:32Z matzy_: i see what you mean about the json too, thanks 2020-03-04T06:45:33Z pjb: matzy_: forget about canned batteries-included stuff. It never works. Read the doc, and write your own code! 2020-03-04T06:46:16Z matzy_: so what's the difference between: 2020-03-04T06:46:20Z matzy_: (defpackage :simpleroutes-demo (:use :common-lisp :hunchentoot :cl-who :simple-routes)) 2020-03-04T06:46:23Z matzy_: and 2020-03-04T06:46:36Z matzy_: (ql:quickload :hunchentoot)(ql:quickload :cl-who)(ql:quickload :simple-routes) 2020-03-04T06:46:57Z pjb: The former defines a CL packages. The later forms download, install and load systems. 2020-03-04T06:47:12Z pjb: packages and systems are entirely UNRELATED, just like HTTP is unrelated to HTML. 2020-03-04T06:47:26Z pjb: matzy_: you seem to have really strange connections in your brains… 2020-03-04T06:47:55Z matzy_: i dunno, i've learned a few languages but nothing like this 2020-03-04T06:47:59Z saturn2: other languages use the word "package" to mean "system" 2020-03-04T06:48:06Z pjb: matzy_: my dog is called Georges, but it has nothing in common with any US president. 2020-03-04T06:48:17Z matzy_: I'm originally a C guy 2020-03-04T06:49:10Z saturn2: in lisp, a package is just a collection of symbols, and it's used to protect different software from namespace collisions 2020-03-04T06:49:11Z jackdaniel: matzy_: "packages" in Common Lisp are similar to "namespaces" in C++ 2020-03-04T06:49:29Z jackdaniel: C language has no package equivalent (except of consistently used prefixes) 2020-03-04T06:49:41Z matzy_: yeah thats what i was thinking 2020-03-04T06:49:49Z matzy_: is there an equivalent in JS? 2020-03-04T06:50:12Z saturn2: that defpackage line is creating a new package called simpleroutes-demo which imports all symbols from common-lisp, hunchentoot, cl-who, and simple-routes 2020-03-04T06:50:13Z jackdaniel: I don't think there is, but I don't know JS well enough to really tell 2020-03-04T06:50:49Z pjb: from the packages named "COMMON-LISP", "HUNCHENTOOT", "CL-WHO" and "SIMPLE-ROUTES", assuming they exist. 2020-03-04T06:50:50Z saturn2: yes, JS has modules which are similar to packages 2020-03-04T06:50:55Z Jachy: matzy_: modern JS modules are similar -- CL packages let you export symbols even. 2020-03-04T06:51:08Z jackdaniel: matzy_: n.b it is a well known fact, that packages in Common Lisp confuse new programmers 2020-03-04T06:51:12Z matzy_: saturn2 ok that makes sense. do they need to be ql'd first? 2020-03-04T06:51:55Z saturn2: they need to be loaded somehow, ql is a tool that will load them for you 2020-03-04T06:52:12Z matzy_: but i thought ql loads systems and not packages 2020-03-04T06:52:29Z matzy_: maybe i just need to read more on the difference 2020-03-04T06:52:47Z jackdaniel: matzy_: you may simply call (load "packages.lisp") to define packages, quicklisp is a library which is built on top of a buildsystem called asdf which underneath indeed calls compile-file and load 2020-03-04T06:52:52Z pjb: Systems are set of files. 2020-03-04T06:53:15Z pjb: loading a system means loading the files in some order (eg. a topological sort on file dependencies). 2020-03-04T06:53:23Z matzy_: ok 2020-03-04T06:53:56Z pjb: loading files _can_ have side effects, such as the creation or the modification of packages and other lisp data structure in the environment. 2020-03-04T06:53:59Z matzy_: so is it that you load a system once per project and then use the package wherever? 2020-03-04T06:54:33Z jackdaniel: yes. /me disconnects now, see you 2020-03-04T06:54:53Z matzy_: ahhh ok. thanks! 2020-03-04T06:55:01Z pjb: But otherwise, there's no relationship between systems and package. It may just happen that a system named "hunchentoot" may have files that when loaded will define a package named "HUNCHENTOOT", but it's pure hasard. 2020-03-04T06:55:34Z saturn2: nearly all systems will define a package with the same name, though 2020-03-04T06:55:35Z matzy_: funny, i think i got an error like that earlier 2020-03-04T06:55:35Z pjb: Note that packages are named with strings (usually in upper case, but not necessarily), while systems are named by lower-case strings. 2020-03-04T06:56:10Z matzy_: so say you want to use hunchentoot. do you load the system and the package in the same file? 2020-03-04T06:56:30Z pjb: A system may define 0, 1 or more packages. Therefore they just cannot map to package with the same name. Furthermore I just explained that system names are LOWERCASE, while package names are UPPERCASE! So they definitely cannot be the same! 2020-03-04T06:56:36Z matzy_: or is there a file where you load all your packages and then require systems where needed? 2020-03-04T06:56:45Z pjb: matzy_: you cannot load a package. 2020-03-04T06:56:54Z pjb: matzy_: you can only define a package. 2020-03-04T06:57:00Z matzy_: ah yeah ok, sorry i missed that 2020-03-04T06:57:14Z pjb: This may occur when loading a file, or when calling a function or a macro, or whenever. 2020-03-04T06:58:06Z matzy_: so if i have the system hunchentoot loaded, why on earth would i define a package with the same name (albeit different case)? 2020-03-04T06:58:48Z matzy_: ah, is it to map the package to teh correct system? 2020-03-04T06:58:50Z pjb: Yes, you would not, since if you read the documentation of the "hunchentoot" system, you will see that loading it will load files that will define a package named "HUNCHENTOOT". 2020-03-04T06:58:57Z pjb: So why would you do that yourself, indeed? 2020-03-04T06:59:29Z matzy_: ok, i see 2020-03-04T06:59:34Z saturn2: packages help you organize your code, systems help you compile and load your files 2020-03-04T07:00:31Z matzy_: ok this has definitely helped clear up some confusion lol 2020-03-04T07:00:36Z matzy_: much appreciated 2020-03-04T07:00:53Z matzy_: i'll read a little more on both and hopefully it'll fully click 2020-03-04T07:01:04Z pjb: matzy_: but be sure to check the names, sometimes, the package names are quite different from the system name. 2020-03-04T07:01:36Z pjb: and often several packages are defined. This is why asdf will display the name of the packages that are defined when the system is loaded. 2020-03-04T07:02:06Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-04T07:03:14Z matzy_: how do you normally check the names? docs or trial and error? 2020-03-04T07:04:22Z pjb: doc, or as I said, you watch for the message from asdf when loading the system. 2020-03-04T07:05:41Z matzy_: ah ok 2020-03-04T07:06:13Z pjb: Also, often packages will have nicknames, and you will rather use some small nickname than the actual package name. 2020-03-04T07:10:14Z matzy_: so wait, are symbols defined within packages? 2020-03-04T07:10:21Z pjb: No. 2020-03-04T07:10:31Z pjb: Symbols are interned or present in packages. 2020-03-04T07:10:55Z pjb: They can be present by importing them, or by using a package that exports them. 2020-03-04T07:11:09Z pjb: (note that importing a homeless symbol will intern it). 2020-03-04T07:12:05Z pjb: matzy_: most lisp notion is indepedent and unrelated to other lisp notions. 2020-03-04T07:12:33Z pjb: When there's some coupling, it's rather weak and optional. 2020-03-04T07:13:03Z dale quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep) 2020-03-04T07:13:08Z matzy_: ok i'm starting to get it 2020-03-04T07:13:09Z pjb: This is one thing that makes it a strong language: you can combine everything with everything. 2020-03-04T07:13:18Z matzy_: thanks for much for all your time and explanation 2020-03-04T07:13:44Z saturn2: symbols do have a home package, though 2020-03-04T07:13:59Z pjb: Not all of them! 2020-03-04T07:14:17Z pjb: (make-symbol "FOO") #| --> #:foo |# no home package. (symbol-package (make-symbol "foo")) #| --> nil |# 2020-03-04T07:15:29Z pjb: This is what the #: notation means. 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For example, if you target dalvik. 2020-03-04T10:16:44Z Odin-: Hm. True. 2020-03-04T10:17:19Z Odin-: That's not CL-on-JVM, strictly, but a different usecase I forgot. :p 2020-03-04T10:17:29Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T10:21:11Z chrnybo: LW has a Java Interface: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw71/LW/html/lw-113.htm 2020-03-04T10:24:15Z no-defun-allowed: (ql:quickload :superior-rimshot) ; ⇒ 2020-03-04T10:24:32Z no-defun-allowed: Ah yeah, Dalvik is weird. 2020-03-04T10:25:22Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: Conceded. 2020-03-04T10:25:42Z Shinmera: Speaking of ABCL, it seems easye has disappeared (people are unable to contact him anywhere) 2020-03-04T10:25:43Z flip214: ECL is supported on android 2020-03-04T10:26:08Z flip214: Shinmera: last I know is that he got a new job in January, something about common lisp 2020-03-04T10:27:20Z Shinmera: flip214: I was contacted in February and apparently the company he started working for was unable to contact him too 2020-03-04T10:27:39Z flip214: oh, ouch 2020-03-04T10:27:48Z flip214: that's not a good sign 2020-03-04T10:27:50Z Shinmera: Yeah :( 2020-03-04T10:29:35Z flip214: I'm not family, so I can't even call the Police 2020-03-04T10:30:00Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-04T10:30:07Z no-defun-allowed: Shit, that escalated quickly. 2020-03-04T10:31:13Z flip214: Shinmera: when in February? Beginning or end? 2020-03-04T10:31:25Z Shinmera: 4th, so exactly a month ago. 2020-03-04T10:31:33Z flip214: hrmpf 2020-03-04T10:31:41Z flip214: thanks 2020-03-04T10:31:45Z flip214: for the data 2020-03-04T10:31:46Z Shinmera: Apparently by then the company had been unable to reach him for weeks. 2020-03-04T10:32:34Z Shinmera: I don't live in Austria, nor know where he lives, so I wasn't really able to help out. 2020-03-04T10:32:59Z beach: Sounds bad. 2020-03-04T10:33:47Z flip214: well, in December he applied at BRZ... in the end of December (or beginning of Jan?) I kind-of-heard that he found some better place and wouldn't start with us 2020-03-04T10:35:29Z Odin-: https://github.com/macports/macports-ports/commit/10e7e315a2f032c80a2afe2cb34d88d9af728672 2020-03-04T10:35:32Z flip214: but that's just hearsay. The last sign of him was in #common-lisp.net on Feb 19th 2020-03-04T10:35:46Z flip214: Odin-: thanks! 2020-03-04T10:35:49Z Odin-: Or is that a different easye? 2020-03-04T10:36:00Z Shinmera: No, that's the one 2020-03-04T10:36:18Z flip214: at least his nick 2020-03-04T10:39:03Z Odin-: https://github.com/armedbear/abcl/issues/146 2020-03-04T10:39:09Z gmeister quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4) 2020-03-04T10:39:58Z pjb: easye: Hello! 2020-03-04T10:40:50Z pjb: geoip of easye is Manchester 53°28'51.24" N, 2°14'14.64" S… 2020-03-04T10:43:45Z gmeister joined #lisp 2020-03-04T10:46:31Z ioa: Shinmera: easye has not disappeared 2020-03-04T10:46:47Z Shinmera: That's a relief, then! 2020-03-04T10:47:04Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-04T10:47:06Z Odin-: I believe we'd gotten to that conclusion, yes. 2020-03-04T10:53:58Z francogrex joined #lisp 2020-03-04T10:54:05Z francogrex: HiI was disconnected 2020-03-04T10:54:28Z francogrex: Linj I use it it is very nice but wanted to find a "soulmate" who uses it too :) 2020-03-04T10:55:09Z flip214: pjb: how did you find that? 2020-03-04T10:55:29Z flip214: do you have access to his google account or so? 2020-03-04T10:55:45Z Shinmera: I guess he looked at the IRC hostname. 2020-03-04T10:56:29Z flip214: oh, he got online in the last few minutes... "Wenn man von der Sonne spricht" 2020-03-04T10:56:51Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-04T10:58:33Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:01:28Z phoe: in Polish it's "o wilku mowa", literally, "speak of the wolf" 2020-03-04T11:03:15Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-04T11:03:47Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:05:54Z margeas joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:05:59Z margeas is now known as markoong 2020-03-04T11:09:16Z v_m_v_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T11:09:52Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T11:10:19Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:10:57Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-04T11:14:06Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T11:15:39Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:15:40Z oxum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-04T11:22:08Z oxum_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-04T11:22:26Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:26:04Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T11:29:42Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T11:29:43Z FreeTibet joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:32:09Z xkapastel joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:33:23Z ljavorsk__ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:35:09Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:35:23Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:38:03Z ljavorsk__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-04T11:38:11Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:40:11Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T11:40:25Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:40:40Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:41:06Z swills quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-04T11:41:40Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:42:22Z swills joined #lisp 2020-03-04T11:46:18Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T11:54:49Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2020-03-04T11:57:16Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T11:58:10Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T11:59:13Z pjb: flip214: oh, I made a mistake, I took the wrong IP. From /whois easye, then https://www.geodatatool.com/en/?ip=oxi.slack.net we see it's connected from Germany. 2020-03-04T11:59:28Z pjb: Nuremberg Latitude: 49.447780 Longitude: 11.068330 2020-03-04T12:00:18Z gko_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:00:51Z ljavorsk__ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:02:05Z ssake joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:03:59Z ljavorsk_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-04T12:05:25Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:06:00Z montaropdf joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:07:10Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:08:19Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:08:29Z jmercouris: phoe: quick update, I tested it, it does work 2020-03-04T12:08:38Z jmercouris: phoe: that is, you use extern c, compile with c++ compiler and cffi can invoke those functions 2020-03-04T12:09:47Z phoe: jmercouris: good 2020-03-04T12:11:03Z jmercouris: that saves me a lot of translation :-) 2020-03-04T12:11:05Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:11:12Z jmercouris: now to make an API for the functions I need 2020-03-04T12:13:59Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T12:16:11Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-04T12:20:08Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T12:21:18Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:22:07Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:22:27Z farooqkz__ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:23:54Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:24:56Z mangul quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-04T12:25:21Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:27:40Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:27:54Z oxum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-04T12:28:07Z oxum_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T12:34:40Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:36:46Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T12:37:26Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:39:55Z frodef` joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:40:35Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T12:40:55Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T12:41:22Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T12:41:42Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:42:56Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T12:44:23Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-04T12:44:51Z madage joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:45:30Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T12:48:05Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:54:24Z sgithens quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2020-03-04T12:54:56Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T12:55:06Z bytesighs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-04T12:55:08Z tazjin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2020-03-04T12:55:12Z fowlduck quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-04T12:55:16Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T12:55:20Z bytesighs joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:55:24Z sgithens joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:55:27Z fowlduck joined #lisp 2020-03-04T12:55:31Z tazjin joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:02:04Z DGASAU` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2020-03-04T13:02:18Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:04:52Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:11:53Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:13:14Z lucasb joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:14:31Z ljavorsk__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-04T13:21:15Z Firedancer_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:23:46Z johs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-04T13:24:05Z margeas joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:24:06Z splittist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-04T13:24:16Z splittist joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:25:06Z johs joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:25:23Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-04T13:25:39Z sz0 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:25:55Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:35:01Z farooqkz__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-04T13:35:40Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:36:02Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:36:38Z Firedancer_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T13:38:30Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T13:40:09Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T13:40:16Z Firedancer_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:41:35Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:46:50Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T13:49:10Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:49:57Z paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T13:50:15Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T13:52:29Z chrnybo quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.50.1)) 2020-03-04T13:58:48Z red-dot: Saw some discussion of Lisp & C++ from this afternoon. Perhaps this might be useful: https://github.com/Islam0mar/cl-cxx 2020-03-04T14:00:31Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T14:02:04Z margeas is now known as markong 2020-03-04T14:09:21Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T14:10:29Z LiamH joined #lisp 2020-03-04T14:11:59Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T14:13:10Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T14:16:26Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-04T14:18:35Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-04T14:23:50Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2020-03-04T14:24:07Z margeas joined #lisp 2020-03-04T14:25:32Z mingus quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-03-04T14:28:12Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T14:30:42Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T14:32:07Z shka_: red-dot: i recommend ECL for that 2020-03-04T14:34:15Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T14:37:02Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T14:37:11Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-04T14:37:50Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T14:39:14Z ioa quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2020-03-04T14:39:29Z ioa joined #lisp 2020-03-04T14:45:19Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T14:46:23Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T14:51:55Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-04T14:52:00Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T14:53:47Z shka_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2020-03-04T14:56:21Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-03-04T14:58:19Z amerlyq: Is ECL healhy and growing or old, abandoned and dying? 2020-03-04T14:59:16Z beach: The former. 2020-03-04T14:59:42Z beach: amerlyq: The current maintainer is jackdaniel and he is an invited speaker of ELS this year to talk about it. 2020-03-04T15:00:26Z amerlyq: So, could you still recommend using it as embedded language for new middle-sized projects? 2020-03-04T15:01:56Z amerlyq: Or is there anything different? Or maybe Lisp isn't the best tool for the job nowadays (like Lua/Python hype)? 2020-03-04T15:01:57Z beach: I don't recommend embedding Common Lisp in anything else, simply because I recommend writing the entire thing in Common Lisp. I am interested in ECL, but not for embedding. 2020-03-04T15:02:26Z beach: Oh, I think if you really have to embed something, it might as well be Common Lisp. 2020-03-04T15:04:31Z amerlyq: How ECL fare comparing with Guile in practice? There are not much comparison articles on the web I could find. But Guile had some incomprehensible memory corruptions last time I used it. 2020-03-04T15:04:34Z beach: Especially for a "new middle-sized project" I definitely recommend writing the entire thing in Common Lisp. 2020-03-04T15:04:58Z jcowan joined #lisp 2020-03-04T15:05:14Z jcowan: Are there any modern use cases for read-char-no-hang? 2020-03-04T15:06:00Z beach: amerlyq: What would be your reason for using something other than Common Lisp in a new middle-sized project? 2020-03-04T15:06:01Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T15:06:22Z ljavorsk_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-04T15:08:36Z beach: amerlyq: I mean, if you have an existing code base written in (say) C, I can understand why you are not particularly interested in rewriting it, so in such a thing I can see embedding something like Common Lisp, but a new project? 2020-03-04T15:09:31Z amerlyq: People and libs. Of course it's a people thing. And libs. It's hard when there are only 2-3 lisp devs for dozen of C/C++ ones, and half of your libs are C++ already. 2020-03-04T15:10:05Z amerlyq: Of course we can write more cffi wrappers, but... it somehow doesn't "click". 2020-03-04T15:10:13Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-03-04T15:11:29Z beach: Well, that depends on the kind of project. Also, you would have to weigh the difference between your productivity in different languages with the necessity of rewriting some libraries in Common Lisp. The latter would then benefit more Common Lisp programmers. 2020-03-04T15:11:46Z p_l: beach: there are various subtle runtime environment effects sometimes to take care 2020-03-04T15:12:08Z amerlyq: But sometimes I wonder too if writing everything in CL would be better. Fragmentation/API suffering from such mix becomes intolerable at times. 2020-03-04T15:12:24Z p_l: I have a half-started project that depends on ECL because it's easiest to build small, self-contained static binaries with it 2020-03-04T15:14:10Z p_l: it does help to inline some C code, even, though I'm hoping to put everything in CFFI 2020-03-04T15:14:26Z phoe: jcowan: yes, for instance, if you want to not block. 2020-03-04T15:15:12Z beach: I apologize. I thought we were here because we were convinced about the virtues of writing code in Common Lisp. Should have known. 2020-03-04T15:15:43Z amerlyq: Lisp is nice, but world is broken 2020-03-04T15:15:53Z jcowan: Trivially yes. But in what circumstances is that more useful than a general poll/select analogue? 2020-03-04T15:16:54Z phoe: beach: I thought we're here because we are writing Common Lisp, not because of ideology 2020-03-04T15:17:25Z phoe: one can practice Lisp without being convinced of the set of virtues that you mention after all 2020-03-04T15:17:49Z beach: I should have known better than to get involved. I will now be quiet. 2020-03-04T15:17:57Z beach: Again, I am sorry. 2020-03-04T15:18:46Z snackoverflow quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-04T15:20:38Z mico_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T15:20:38Z mico_ quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-04T15:22:54Z amerlyq: The Night Watch by J.Mickens -- sometimes I recommend it to people, who think system engineers are a fiction and their solves everything :) https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1311_05-08_mickens.pdf 2020-03-04T15:23:39Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-04T15:24:20Z phoe: system design is a necessity no matter which language you use 2020-03-04T15:24:23Z igemnace joined #lisp 2020-03-04T15:24:33Z phoe: also even if that language is English 2020-03-04T15:25:34Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T15:29:27Z luni joined #lisp 2020-03-04T15:30:02Z jackdaniel: amerlyq: we are closing to a release after few years of development 2020-03-04T15:30:27Z phoe: and that is amazing stuff 2020-03-04T15:30:28Z jackdaniel: there is only one remaining regression to be solved 2020-03-04T15:30:29Z amerlyq: oh, so that's what the gap in news means 2020-03-04T15:30:53Z phoe: for the time being, you can clone and build the newest ecl from the git repository 2020-03-04T15:30:58Z phoe: and have the freshmost ECL 2020-03-04T15:31:12Z phoe: ;; same with CCL, though the CCL build process is more complicated 2020-03-04T15:31:20Z amerlyq: it sounds somewhat scary for production :) 2020-03-04T15:31:54Z jackdaniel: even after the release we won't build binaries, that's up to distributions to produce them 2020-03-04T15:32:16Z amerlyq: I meant I better wait until somebody mark some RC version as "stable enough" on master branch 2020-03-04T15:32:44Z phoe: if you want production quality stuff, then yes, you should wait for a release (; 2020-03-04T15:32:46Z jackdaniel: either way, if you have problems with using ECL drop by on #ecl (unless you have some general lisp question, then this channel is fine) 2020-03-04T15:33:34Z jackdaniel: regarding comparison to scheme -- the closest implementation to ecl in scheme world is chicken not guile 2020-03-04T15:34:55Z amerlyq: phoe: yes, there is the time to upgrade old stuff (and fix upgrade problems), and the time to write new stuff (and fix its bugs). And better never mix them together. So I will wait :) 2020-03-04T15:35:27Z amerlyq: jackdaniel: you have a point 2020-03-04T15:35:28Z jackdaniel: as of "news gap", it is time-consuming to write quality posts, even short ones 2020-03-04T15:37:46Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-04T15:38:53Z pfdietz: 'I apologize for such a long letter - I didn't have time to write a short one.' -- Mark Twain 2020-03-04T15:39:51Z pfdietz: 'Most internet quotations are completely made up.' -- Abraham Lincoln 2020-03-04T15:40:06Z jackdaniel: 'I understood that reference.' - Captain America 2020-03-04T15:40:08Z amerlyq: pfdietz: still I understand jackdaniel, it's always some mental endeavour to write it, even if you simply dump whatever mess you have in your head. 2020-03-04T15:40:44Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T15:41:06Z jackdaniel: n.b, some folks may be interested in the fact, that EQL5 project (ECL embedded in QT5) works on iphone (ios) 2020-03-04T15:41:42Z jackdaniel: (and on Android, but previous release also did work there, so it is not that much news) 2020-03-04T15:42:22Z amerlyq: Oh, nice. Why anybody still uses Qt ECMAScript anyway I would liked to know... 2020-03-04T15:42:32Z wsinatra: amerlyq: Thanks for the Night Watch suggest, absolutely hilarious read; and a good reminder to be a little less pedantic (since I'm quit well aligned with beach's mindset) 2020-03-04T15:42:54Z jackdaniel: night watch? 2020-03-04T15:43:11Z amerlyq: The, night watch :) 2020-03-04T15:43:18Z amerlyq: J.Mickens read 2020-03-04T15:43:41Z jackdaniel: ah, I see the link now, thank you 2020-03-04T15:45:08Z dale_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T15:45:26Z dale_ is now known as dale 2020-03-04T15:46:27Z jackdaniel: also, it is important to note, that ECL has now two maintainers, so even if I'm hit by the bus we are good to go ;) 2020-03-04T15:51:19Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2020-03-04T15:51:22Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.2)) 2020-03-04T15:51:41Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-04T15:52:01Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T15:55:04Z bitmapper quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T15:55:39Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-04T15:57:01Z bitmapper quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-04T15:57:25Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-04T15:58:54Z rwcom1 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T15:59:58Z frodef` joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:00:30Z rwcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-04T16:00:30Z rwcom1 is now known as rwcom 2020-03-04T16:06:32Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:09:38Z montaropdf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-03-04T16:10:34Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:12:52Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:13:19Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T16:17:14Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-04T16:18:01Z smazga joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:21:39Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-04T16:22:18Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T16:23:14Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-04T16:24:06Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:27:42Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T16:28:03Z rwcom quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T16:28:48Z rwcom joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:29:45Z didi joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:30:29Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T16:30:40Z didi: So this SBCL warning is new to me: `; caught STYLE-WARNING:; Can't preserve function source - missing MAKE-LOAD-FORM methods?' I'm compiling a method. What does it mean? 2020-03-04T16:30:40Z didi: 2020-03-04T16:33:12Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:33:38Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-04T16:35:39Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:37:46Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:38:18Z didi: Here is a small example: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/2f95aa0c 2020-03-04T16:38:24Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T16:42:13Z luni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T16:43:01Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T16:43:45Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:54:07Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:54:47Z phoe: didi: which SBCL version? 2020-03-04T16:55:16Z didi: phoe: 1.4.16 2020-03-04T16:55:26Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-04T16:55:36Z phoe: also happening on 2.0.0 2020-03-04T16:55:43Z phoe: if I try to C-c C-c forms from an unsaved buffer 2020-03-04T16:55:51Z didi: Same here. 2020-03-04T16:56:08Z phoe: also in a saved buffer 2020-03-04T16:56:11Z alandipert: has anyone experimented with bindings for libcmark, the commonmark markdown reference library? 2020-03-04T16:56:23Z ajithmk joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:56:29Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-04T16:56:39Z slyrus__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-04T16:57:30Z phoe: didi: can't see it on launchpad 2020-03-04T16:57:37Z phoe: could you post that on #sbcl and see what the devs say? 2020-03-04T16:57:42Z didi: phoe: Sure. 2020-03-04T16:59:08Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-03-04T17:00:28Z gmeister quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4) 2020-03-04T17:01:24Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T17:04:04Z frodef` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T17:04:54Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-04T17:07:10Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-04T17:07:24Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T17:09:42Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T17:10:01Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-03-04T17:11:37Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T17:14:14Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T17:28:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-04T17:34:34Z bitmapper quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T17:34:53Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-04T17:35:28Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2020-03-04T17:36:27Z FreeTibet quit (Quit: Vision[0.10.3]: i've been blurred!) 2020-03-04T17:37:10Z rwcom5 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T17:39:27Z rwcom quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-04T17:39:28Z rwcom5 is now known as rwcom 2020-03-04T17:43:06Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2020-03-04T17:44:17Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2020-03-04T17:48:31Z cyraxjoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-04T17:51:23Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-04T17:53:06Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2020-03-04T17:53:55Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T17:59:37Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-04T17:59:45Z zulu_inuoe: o/ 2020-03-04T18:03:04Z phoe: heyyyy zulu 2020-03-04T18:03:31Z zulu_inuoe: I wanted to ask a question but I forgot what it was. It'll come back to me eventually 2020-03-04T18:04:38Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T18:05:51Z phoe: you lost your last handle to it and it got garbage collected perhaps 2020-03-04T18:06:26Z didi: Weak hash tables are dangerous indeed. 2020-03-04T18:07:10Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T18:07:18Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-03-04T18:09:07Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T18:09:11Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-04T18:10:14Z loli: Has anyone had issues with the Fset package giving off a style warning as of late? 2020-03-04T18:11:34Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T18:12:02Z slyrus__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T18:12:52Z clothespin joined #lisp 2020-03-04T18:13:45Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T18:16:38Z phoe: what sorta style warnings? 2020-03-04T18:16:47Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-04T18:16:54Z phoe: I have only one: 2020-03-04T18:17:00Z loli: `Generic function FSET:ITERATOR clobbers an earlier FTYPE proclamation ...' 2020-03-04T18:17:07Z phoe: /home/phoe/.roswell/lisp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/fset-20171019-git/Code/defs.lisp 2020-03-04T18:17:10Z phoe: The default initial element #\Nul is not a EXTENDED-CHAR. 2020-03-04T18:17:19Z phoe: oh, huh 2020-03-04T18:17:26Z loli: This is on loading the package, which is quite annoying, as this shows up on my scripts 2020-03-04T18:17:29Z phoe: oh wait, I get that one too 2020-03-04T18:17:30Z loli: I can't find out how to disable it 2020-03-04T18:18:25Z phoe: (handler-bind ((warning #'muffle-warning)) (asdf:load-system :fset :force t)) 2020-03-04T18:18:47Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-04T18:18:47Z loli: let me add that to my script and see if that works 2020-03-04T18:19:31Z _death: best way to disable it is to fix it 2020-03-04T18:19:46Z loli: Yes, but it is not my package, I'd have to submit a PR and wait. 2020-03-04T18:20:12Z _death: not really.. you can just patch it.. submission of PR is a bonus 2020-03-04T18:20:36Z loli: well I have this script deployed via roswell, and so my coworkers get this warning as well 2020-03-04T18:20:49Z _death: oh well 2020-03-04T18:22:45Z loli: thanks phoe, after removing the force it worked like a charm 2020-03-04T18:23:12Z phoe: loli: after removing :force? 2020-03-04T18:23:27Z phoe: at this point you might get no warnings whatsoever because it'll be loading precompiled FASL files 2020-03-04T18:23:37Z loli: which is fine by me 2020-03-04T18:23:47Z phoe: unless you compile from source 2020-03-04T18:35:09Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-04T18:37:17Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-04T18:41:22Z cosimone quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-04T18:43:20Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-04T18:43:46Z pjb joined #lisp 2020-03-04T18:46:32Z loli: I must say Ros is quite nice to use. Do we have anyway of fixing a package to use various libraries within a range of versions? 2020-03-04T18:46:44Z loli: That was something I was never able to figure out too well. 2020-03-04T18:48:51Z zulu_inuoe: Oh I remember now. Is there a way to have quicklisp install the dependencies of a system, without loading the system itself? 2020-03-04T18:49:28Z rj0d quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-04T18:49:41Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T18:52:06Z zulu_inuoe: Best I can think of atm is to asdf:find-system, iterate through its deps (including defsystem-depends-on deps) and quickload each one 2020-03-04T18:54:56Z ebrasca: Hi , I get this error http://ix.io/2doB when I try to load :next browser. 2020-03-04T18:56:22Z phoe: zulu_inuoe: no idea 2020-03-04T18:56:37Z phoe: I think you could hack the QL client into loading everything *but* a given system 2020-03-04T18:56:54Z phoe: that should be doable by editing its sources 2020-03-04T18:57:08Z phoe: (and you could possibly make a PR to quicklisp-client that achieves this in a clean way!) 2020-03-04T18:58:28Z wsinatra: zulu_inuoe: Would fukamachi's Qlot work? I don't think I've more than glanced at it, but it sounds similar 2020-03-04T18:59:47Z zulu_inuoe: qlot would work but I'd rather avoid it right now until I look into it later. It's fallen down a few times last I used it and want to avoid an extra dep if I can avoid it 2020-03-04T19:00:08Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-04T19:05:57Z wsinatra: That makes sense, I've never used it myself so it was really just a guess 2020-03-04T19:06:07Z ajithmk quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-04T19:06:11Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:06:13Z cosimone quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-04T19:15:34Z ljavorsk_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T19:22:04Z chipolux quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T19:22:12Z akrl``` joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:22:27Z snackoverflow joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:22:38Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T19:22:45Z drewc joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:22:51Z Arcsech quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T19:23:46Z stux|RC-only quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T19:23:56Z chipolux joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:24:20Z akrl`` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T19:24:54Z Arcsech joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:25:21Z didi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-04T19:25:38Z _idkfa joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:25:48Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:25:51Z ebrasca: I have no idea how to fix my error. 2020-03-04T19:28:11Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-04T19:28:18Z panico quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T19:28:18Z brettgilio quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T19:28:41Z phoe: minion: memo for jmercouris: is there an IRC channel for nextbrowser-related stuff? ebrasca is having issues loading it and I think the rising popularity warrants having a separate channel by now 2020-03-04T19:28:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks. 2020-03-04T19:29:22Z ebrasca: phoe: I think my problem is more asdf . 2020-03-04T19:29:42Z brettgilio joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:29:57Z ebrasca: phoe: It loaded fine in my gentoo and after some update it stop loading. 2020-03-04T19:30:26Z ebrasca: phoe: There is #nEXT-Browser 2020-03-04T19:30:59Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:31:29Z phoe: oh! I see 2020-03-04T19:32:00Z phoe: hm... 2020-03-04T19:32:16Z phoe: (ql:quickload :prove-asdf) ? I never used prove, but I wonder if that will fix it 2020-03-04T19:32:26Z akhetopnu joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:32:27Z phoe: (also, TIL of a new IRC channel) 2020-03-04T19:32:47Z eeeeeta wonders idly whether there are any Lispy XMPP channels about 2020-03-04T19:32:50Z frgo_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T19:33:36Z ebrasca: I just run (ql:quickload :prove-asdf) and what I don with it? 2020-03-04T19:34:42Z akhetopnu: I have a system in common lisp that depends on a bunch of other systems. I want to compile this system into a single .fasl file *and not load it afterwards*. Is that possible? I'm tinkering with different operations, I tried compile-op (the 'best practices' page on asdf's github says it 'does not necessarily load them system') but it doesn't work as advertised. 2020-03-04T19:35:08Z ebrasca: phoe: I think you mean this (prove-asdf:run-test-system :next) 2020-03-04T19:36:03Z akhetopnu: is there a way to compile it without the runtime? just the system + dependencies? 2020-03-04T19:38:54Z ebrasca: phoe: After runing prove-asdf I get http://ix.io/2doZ 2020-03-04T19:42:47Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-04T19:43:45Z ebrasca: phoe: Thanks , I managet to fix my problem! 2020-03-04T19:43:48Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:44:02Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:44:15Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:44:27Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T19:44:40Z cosimone quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-04T19:46:31Z ravenx quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-04T19:46:40Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T19:46:52Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-03-04T19:48:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T19:49:25Z didi joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:50:16Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:53:55Z z147 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:54:38Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:55:12Z ebrasca: phoe: It like load but then I don't get my :next package. 2020-03-04T19:55:14Z phoe: ebrasca: that, in turn, sounds like an old ASDF/UIOP version 2020-03-04T19:55:37Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T19:55:41Z ebrasca: phoe: How to check? 2020-03-04T19:56:04Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-04T19:56:24Z phoe: (asdf:asdf-version) 2020-03-04T19:56:43Z ebrasca: "3.1.5" 2020-03-04T19:56:43Z z147_ quit (Quit: z147_) 2020-03-04T19:56:51Z phoe: that's ollld 2020-03-04T19:57:04Z phoe: which (lisp-implementation-version) are you using? 2020-03-04T19:57:33Z akhetopnu quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-03-04T19:57:40Z ebrasca: "1.4.9" 2020-03-04T19:58:05Z phoe: SBCL 1.4.9 is ancient by now 2020-03-04T19:58:14Z phoe: go ahead and upgrade to at least 2.0.2 2020-03-04T20:01:01Z doublex_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T20:02:31Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-04T20:02:52Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T20:03:26Z doublex quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T20:03:31Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2020-03-04T20:04:34Z _whitelogger quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T20:04:51Z mfiano: ebrasca: prove has been replaced 2020-03-04T20:05:02Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-04T20:05:26Z phoe: mfiano: I don't think he's the one concerned with that; he's loading software, not writing it 2020-03-04T20:05:39Z ebrasca: Gentoo only have up to sbcl-2.0.1 2020-03-04T20:06:47Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-04T20:06:48Z varjagg joined #lisp 2020-03-04T20:06:54Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-04T20:07:22Z phoe: hm, then grab 2.0.1, it's new enough 2020-03-04T20:09:44Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-03-04T20:10:11Z mfiano: phoe: SBCL 2.0.2 has ASDF 3.3.1, and was last updated in SBCL 1.4.2, before his version. 2020-03-04T20:11:18Z phoe: mfiano: huh 2020-03-04T20:11:24Z nitrix joined #lisp 2020-03-04T20:11:25Z phoe: if he has 1.4.9 when he should have a newer ASDF then 2020-03-04T20:11:59Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-04T20:12:30Z snackoverflow quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T20:15:00Z luni joined #lisp 2020-03-04T20:19:37Z ratsclub joined #lisp 2020-03-04T20:21:16Z ratsclub left #lisp 2020-03-04T20:22:55Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-04T20:30:32Z pilne joined #lisp 2020-03-04T20:33:34Z iAmDecim: does anyone here use roswell to handle their CL installations? 2020-03-04T20:34:53Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T20:35:30Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-04T20:36:53Z phoe: iAmDecim: me 2020-03-04T20:37:00Z phoe: although all I use roswell for is `ros install sbcl` 2020-03-04T20:37:10Z phoe: nothing fancy like using multiple implementations or versions 2020-03-04T20:37:13Z phoe: and only on Linux 2020-03-04T20:38:33Z luni left #lisp 2020-03-04T20:43:15Z akrl``` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-04T20:46:34Z pjb: didi: your x parameter is shadowed by the loop variable x. 2020-03-04T20:46:53Z pjb: didi: loop is not let or let*. 2020-03-04T20:47:45Z pjb: didi: err, sorry, it seems implementations don't shadow it… 2020-03-04T20:48:04Z pjb: didi: I thought loop established bindings first, and initialized later. 2020-03-04T20:51:16Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T20:53:17Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-04T20:53:22Z pjb: iAmDecim: I just use git and compile my implementations. 2020-03-04T21:08:42Z james joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:09:05Z james is now known as Guest89866 2020-03-04T21:10:48Z akrl``` joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:12:04Z zulu_inuoe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T21:12:47Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:12:49Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:13:08Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T21:17:20Z zulu_inuoe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T21:21:49Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:22:28Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T21:22:36Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:30:07Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-04T21:31:11Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:31:13Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:31:21Z amerlyq quit (Quit: amerlyq) 2020-03-04T21:31:39Z zulu_inuoe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T21:34:43Z akrl``` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T21:35:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-04T21:35:36Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:36:20Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:36:45Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T21:37:13Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2020-03-04T21:38:35Z aindilis joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:40:14Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:43:07Z jmercouris: I want to add a feature to Next where you can also view the source of a given command, I'm wondeirng how to do this 2020-03-04T21:43:07Z minion: jmercouris, memo from phoe: is there an IRC channel for nextbrowser-related stuff? ebrasca is having issues loading it and I think the rising popularity warrants having a separate channel by now 2020-03-04T21:43:21Z jmercouris: phoe: channel, next-browser 2020-03-04T21:43:31Z akrl``` joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:43:42Z ebrasca: jmercouris: hi 2020-03-04T21:43:48Z jmercouris: I have a macro define-command 2020-03-04T21:43:54Z jmercouris: hello ebrasca 2020-03-04T21:44:30Z jmercouris: where I do save the function body, just not sure how to print the function body 2020-03-04T21:44:36Z jmercouris: not sure if that makes sense 2020-03-04T21:45:10Z ebrasca: jmercouris: I am updating my sbcl and asdf 2020-03-04T21:45:15Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-04T21:45:43Z jmercouris: OK :-] 2020-03-04T21:46:10Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:46:45Z jmercouris: given: (defparameter x (lambda (y) (print y))) 2020-03-04T21:46:54Z jmercouris: how can I print (lambda (y) (print y))? 2020-03-04T21:47:12Z jmercouris: OH there is a source form 2020-03-04T21:47:13Z jmercouris: interesting 2020-03-04T21:47:22Z phoe: jmercouris: you mean print the--- oh, I see 2020-03-04T21:47:34Z phoe: normally you can't do that without remembering the uncompiled form in some way 2020-03-04T21:47:39Z phoe: SBCL maybe does that for you 2020-03-04T21:47:51Z jmercouris: Yeah, I was thinking depending on the optimize level or something 2020-03-04T21:48:09Z jmercouris: I'm also afraid I'd never heard of a reference to that anywhere, but it is appearing in SBCL 2020-03-04T21:48:27Z jmercouris: I'd like it to work however cross implementation, so maybe I will need to save the SEXP or something in my define-command macro 2020-03-04T21:48:30Z jmercouris: just not sure how to do that 2020-03-04T21:50:37Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:51:12Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T21:53:07Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T21:53:32Z phoe: that's not hard 2020-03-04T21:53:58Z jmercouris: how would you suggest I do it 2020-03-04T21:54:12Z phoe: (defmacro define-command (&body body) `(progn (remember-body ',body) ,(expand-body body))) 2020-03-04T21:54:27Z phoe: (define-command :foo :bar :baz) will expand into 2020-03-04T21:54:39Z phoe: (progn (remember-body '(:foo :bar :baz)) ...) 2020-03-04T21:54:44Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T21:54:55Z jmercouris: ah 2020-03-04T21:55:00Z jmercouris: so just pass the quoted form to a function 2020-03-04T21:55:00Z phoe: where ... is whatever your macro actually should expand into, disregarding the side effects 2020-03-04T21:55:03Z jmercouris: and save it as a variable or so 2020-03-04T21:55:06Z phoe: yes 2020-03-04T21:55:10Z phoe: or in some sorta hash table 2020-03-04T21:55:17Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-03-04T21:55:18Z phoe: doesn't matter, as long as you do the ',body trick 2020-03-04T21:55:22Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-04T21:55:29Z jmercouris: right, that makes sense 2020-03-04T21:55:33Z jmercouris: probably best as a slot in the command object then 2020-03-04T21:55:36Z phoe: that'll quote the body, or even the &whole if you need it, and therefore pass the whole form as Lisp data to the function 2020-03-04T21:55:40Z phoe: sure, that'll do too 2020-03-04T21:56:03Z jcowan left #lisp 2020-03-04T21:56:07Z jmercouris: right, thanks 2020-03-04T21:56:11Z slyrus__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T22:00:05Z jmercouris: jdz: you are probably right, I've noticed erratic behvavior since updating it in my package manager 2020-03-04T22:01:09Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:06:23Z pjb: jmercouris: have a look at Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html 2020-03-04T22:07:01Z pjb: (defparameter *f* (lambda (y) (print y)))(function-lambda-expression *f*) #| --> nil ; nil ; nil |# 2020-03-04T22:07:01Z pjb: 2020-03-04T22:07:15Z jmercouris: wait a minute, why would i want nil nil nil? 2020-03-04T22:07:33Z jmercouris: I assume that is an error 2020-03-04T22:07:37Z pjb: jmercouris: yes, you cannot count on function-lambda-expression. You have to do it yourself like in ibcl. 2020-03-04T22:07:41Z jmercouris: looks fascinating to be able to edit a DEFUN 2020-03-04T22:07:43Z pjb: This is not an error, this is conforming! 2020-03-04T22:07:56Z jmercouris: oh I see what you are illustrating 2020-03-04T22:08:02Z jmercouris: I thought you'd loaded IBCL and it wasnt showing the body 2020-03-04T22:08:14Z didi left #lisp 2020-03-04T22:08:23Z jmercouris: you know what, this could be really cool for people to save their customized Next 2020-03-04T22:08:24Z pjb: For one-shot, you can also do: (defparameter *f-source* '(lambda (y) (print y))) (defparameter *f* (coerce *f-source* 'function)) 2020-03-04T22:08:34Z jmercouris: they could edit something basically live, and then save the image that way 2020-03-04T22:08:41Z pjb: you have the choice between eval, compile or coerce to transform a lambda expression into a function. 2020-03-04T22:09:05Z pjb: jmercouris: definitely. ibcl is nice for image-based development. 2020-03-04T22:09:38Z pjb: If you provide a REPL, you can definitely consider saving the source forms. 2020-03-04T22:09:46Z efm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-04T22:10:01Z jmercouris: Yes, we will provide a repl, approximately 4 releases from now on our milestone 2020-03-04T22:10:06Z jmercouris: s/milestone/timeline 2020-03-04T22:10:19Z pjb: The alternative is to provide an editor, and save source text. 2020-03-04T22:10:20Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:10:46Z jmercouris: well yeah, but it would be really cool to do it live like that 2020-03-04T22:12:21Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:13:10Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:15:15Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-04T22:15:34Z pjb: Like in emacs. 2020-03-04T22:15:47Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:17:31Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-04T22:20:48Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T22:20:49Z kmeow quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T22:20:53Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-04T22:21:27Z kmeow joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:24:34Z ljavorsk_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T22:25:03Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:25:16Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:28:14Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:30:13Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-03-04T22:32:08Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7) 2020-03-04T22:33:34Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T22:35:38Z jmercouris: now I have a different problem, (coerce '(goldfish) 'string) -> nope 2020-03-04T22:35:51Z jmercouris: so I can't actually output the SEXP to the window... 2020-03-04T22:36:10Z Bike: Do you want to "coerce" arbitrary objects into strings? 2020-03-04T22:36:18Z jmercouris: I want to coerce a sexp into a string 2020-03-04T22:36:28Z Bike: That's not what coerce means in lisp. What you want is 2020-03-04T22:36:30Z Bike: clhs write-to-string 2020-03-04T22:36:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_to_.htm 2020-03-04T22:36:47Z jmercouris: ah, yes 2020-03-04T22:36:58Z jmercouris: I feel a little bit silly now, I even have that in my codebase :-) 2020-03-04T22:37:12Z jmercouris: I guess it is getting late 2020-03-04T22:37:14Z Bike: it's impossible to remember everything. 2020-03-04T22:37:27Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:39:25Z jmercouris: True, I am comparing the collective knowledge of the channel to my own personal knowledge 2020-03-04T22:40:26Z phoe: the collective hivemind is there for you when you need advice that your own mind doesn't produce at the moment 2020-03-04T22:41:39Z phoe: a general rule of interacting with a hivemind is just to keep a decent contribution-to-request ratio, or, if you don't yet feel like contributing yourself, a decent do-your-own-homework-to-request ratio 2020-03-04T22:42:07Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T22:43:47Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:44:49Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T22:46:01Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-04T22:46:10Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:51:30Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T22:52:28Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-04T22:52:36Z cg505 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2020-03-04T22:52:56Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:53:25Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:54:27Z cg505 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:55:54Z Arylla joined #lisp 2020-03-04T22:56:31Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T22:58:37Z iAmDecim: new slime question. so i made a basic function that just prints a string and compiled it..called it in the repl. thats fine. then i changed one character and C-c C-c again expecting it to show the updated function result and its holding the old version 2020-03-04T22:59:01Z pjb: iAmDecim: did you call it again? 2020-03-04T22:59:36Z pjb: (defun foo () (princ 42)) #| --> foo |# (foo) #| 42 --> 42 |# (defun foo () (princ 33)) #| --> foo |# (foo) #| 33 --> 33 |# 2020-03-04T23:00:24Z pjb: iAmDecim: most REPL have a hook that gets called each time the prompt is displayed. So you could call your function there. 2020-03-04T23:00:42Z Bike quit (Quit: Bike) 2020-03-04T23:01:02Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T23:01:21Z iAmDecim: pjb: ahh C-x C-e like with clojure 2020-03-04T23:01:53Z pjb: iAmDecim: oh, yes, you used C-c C-c which just compiles it. It doesn't load it in the image. 2020-03-04T23:02:02Z iAmDecim: "redifining ROOT::BLAH 2020-03-04T23:02:09Z iAmDecim: ok, i see. gotcha =P 2020-03-04T23:02:10Z pjb: iAmDecim: you want C-c C-l or C-x C-e. 2020-03-04T23:02:33Z pjb: iAmDecim: I never use C-c C-k or C-c C-c… 2020-03-04T23:02:56Z iAmDecim: C-c C-l to load it, correct? Ok, I can steal most of what i know from cider 2020-03-04T23:02:59Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-04T23:03:02Z pjb: iAmDecim: yes. 2020-03-04T23:03:13Z pjb: it loads the whole file. 2020-03-04T23:03:26Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:03:27Z pjb: Few implementations load without compiling, so you're good. 2020-03-04T23:06:48Z pjb: swank-mrepl.lisp is direly lacking hooks… 2020-03-04T23:07:16Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T23:08:07Z bitmapper quit 2020-03-04T23:08:35Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-04T23:08:59Z pjb: I guess you could use swank-repl:*send-repl-results-function*… 2020-03-04T23:09:59Z _death: C-c C-c should've worked.. it is possible that point was not in the right place 2020-03-04T23:12:57Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:17:47Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:20:17Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-04T23:21:24Z pjb: iAmDecim: This is what I had in mind: https://termbin.com/gvjc 2020-03-04T23:23:01Z nckx joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:24:16Z varjagg quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2020-03-04T23:25:10Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T23:25:24Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T23:25:51Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-04T23:26:17Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:30:23Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:30:57Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-04T23:31:23Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-04T23:32:16Z nckx joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:32:45Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-04T23:33:24Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:35:22Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T23:37:38Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:37:45Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:39:18Z snackoverflow joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:41:36Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T23:44:06Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:44:41Z iAmDecim: sayoonara....ok thats funny =P 2020-03-04T23:45:11Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-04T23:46:03Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:46:45Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-04T23:48:15Z Arylla quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-04T23:48:46Z Arylla joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:58:02Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-04T23:58:25Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-04T23:59:10Z iAmDecim: Hmm can someone tell me whats wrong here? similar to my issue earlier except even when I execute it after loading it's not picking up on the function. https://imgur.com/a/1BNKIz3 2020-03-05T00:00:48Z Josh_2: try (in-package :root) then (hello-world) ? 2020-03-05T00:02:41Z pfdietz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T00:04:18Z iAmDecim: Josh_2: yup that did it...ahh thank you. namespaces. I started a project opposed to just a random lisp file 2020-03-05T00:06:16Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T00:06:46Z pjb: or (root::hello-world) 2020-03-05T00:07:27Z pjb: If you write (defpackage "ROOT" (:use "CL") (:export "HELLO-WORLD")) , then you would be able to do (root:hello-world) 2020-03-05T00:08:04Z iAmDecim: pjb: thanks. Ahh I see. so you can control what namespace it loads in from the jump. 2020-03-05T00:10:01Z pjb: iAmDecim: if you want, you can use this: https://termbin.com/vw9k 2020-03-05T00:10:07Z iAmDecim: or rather call the namespace/function. noted. Going to go ahead and just do a single file like PCL wanted me to for now but it's making sense. I don't think it will be THAT hard to come from clojure to CL. It definitely feels a better at first glance 2020-03-05T00:10:22Z pjb: and then you won't have to type again (in-package :root) in the repl, you'll get the side effect from the file. 2020-03-05T00:10:28Z pjb: clhs load 2020-03-05T00:10:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm 2020-03-05T00:10:34Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T00:11:46Z iAmDecim: pjb: Cool, good helper function 2020-03-05T00:14:01Z pjb: iAmDecim: I don't know if it's good. It could get you in a dark corner, with some files… 2020-03-05T00:14:21Z pjb: There's a reason why *package* and *readtable* are bound in LOAD. A security reason. 2020-03-05T00:14:42Z pjb: iAmDecim: but if you know what you're doing, yes, it can be useful. 2020-03-05T00:15:26Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-05T00:15:56Z iAmDecim: pjb: i added it to my scratch file to play with in the future. ok going back to toying around 2020-03-05T00:26:12Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T00:28:51Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-05T00:31:39Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-05T00:31:52Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-05T00:35:17Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-05T00:36:14Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T00:37:06Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T00:37:25Z Patzy joined #lisp 2020-03-05T00:37:46Z akrl``` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T00:38:02Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2020-03-05T00:38:10Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-05T00:38:18Z pjb` joined #lisp 2020-03-05T00:38:32Z beach joined #lisp 2020-03-05T00:38:47Z pjb` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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Say I'm old fashioned, say I'm over the hill.) 2020-03-05T04:47:02Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T04:49:52Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T04:51:52Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-05T04:53:02Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-03-05T04:53:07Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T04:54:43Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-03-05T05:01:23Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-05T05:19:21Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T05:19:26Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T05:19:36Z ebrasca: Morning! 2020-03-05T05:22:47Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T05:22:51Z oxum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-05T05:23:03Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-05T05:24:19Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-05T05:25:29Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-03-05T05:27:43Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-05T05:27:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T05:31:46Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T05:32:05Z ebrasca: Morning beach! 2020-03-05T05:32:33Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T05:35:01Z nitrix: Hello. I'm heading to bed and would like keywords to find reading material. 2020-03-05T05:35:18Z nitrix: What lisps are you aware that don't have garbage collection? 2020-03-05T05:35:53Z beach: Common Lisp would be unusable without garbage collection. 2020-03-05T05:36:10Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-05T05:36:23Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-05T05:37:01Z no-defun-allowed: Lisp introduced garbage collection, so it would be incredibly ironic to not have it. 2020-03-05T05:37:05Z loke: beach: Ther is this myth out there that somehow not having GC means that performace is better. 2020-03-05T05:37:49Z beach: loke: Yes, I know. The people who think that have obviously not studied what manual memory management costs. 2020-03-05T05:37:54Z no-defun-allowed: However, if you want to be evil, I have studied Linear Lisp which is kinda usable, provided you mark where copying goes. 2020-03-05T05:37:58Z fookara quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T05:37:58Z loke: The same people often promote the use of refcounting as an alternative. Which is quite hillarious given how slow refcounting is. 2020-03-05T05:38:08Z beach: Indeed. 2020-03-05T05:38:24Z beach: I talk about this issue in some of my talks to industry. 2020-03-05T05:38:28Z no-defun-allowed: (It's the predecessor to the borrow checker in R*st in a way.) 2020-03-05T05:38:45Z loke: no-defun-allowed: Yes, and stuff rust uses refcounting in some cases. 2020-03-05T05:38:55Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, there are few reasons to avoid GC nonetheless. You probably should listen to loke and beach. 2020-03-05T05:39:08Z loke: the BC can manage to do away with the refcounting sometimes, which is good I geuss. But why not just use a GC so you don't have to wrorry? 2020-03-05T05:39:41Z beach: I totally agree. Automatic memory management makes modularity posssible. 2020-03-05T05:40:04Z beach: Or as Paul Wilson puts it: "liveness is a global property". 2020-03-05T05:40:41Z no-defun-allowed: nitrix: Please reconsider if you need to avoid garbage collection. If you absolutely do, then consider Linear Lisp. If you're not certain, try to write it in Common Lisp and test if the garbage collector is going to be an issue. 2020-03-05T05:40:45Z malm quit (Quit: Bye bye) 2020-03-05T05:40:57Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-05T05:42:57Z no-defun-allowed: I had read Appel's "Garbage Collection can be faster than Stack Allocation" long ago. We had a laugh at the thought of using twelve times the size of the live set to make up the minimal difference between GC and stack allocation, but it is not so unreasonable in my opinion now. 2020-03-05T05:44:43Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T05:45:11Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-03-05T05:45:51Z beach: Now, nitrix didn't say that it is a good idea not to have a garbage collector. 2020-03-05T05:46:02Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T05:46:26Z loke: no-defun-allowed: And then you consider heap allocation, where GC-based systems are always going to be faster at 2020-03-05T05:46:40Z no-defun-allowed: If one writes in a mostly functional style, it is estimated about 90% to 95% of the data will be dead each nursery collection. That is not too far off 11/12 bytes being "wasted". 2020-03-05T05:46:40Z no-defun-allowed: True. 2020-03-05T05:46:51Z loke: (a amlloc() in a compacting heap GC system is only a single instruction) 2020-03-05T05:47:03Z no-defun-allowed: Definitely. 2020-03-05T05:48:18Z no-defun-allowed: But even when one could stack allocate, allocating in a nursery has very similar performance. 2020-03-05T05:57:05Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-05T05:59:05Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-05T05:59:21Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:00:53Z buffergn0me: beach: Not entirely true that CL is unusable without GC. ThinLisp has no GC: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/vsedach/Thinlisp-1.1 2020-03-05T06:00:53Z minion: buffergn0me, memo from pjb: you are perfectly right. To clarify your code, use: https://termbin.com/6ueu 2020-03-05T06:01:02Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-05T06:02:12Z buffergn0me: Obviously there are restrictions on how you write the code 2020-03-05T06:03:03Z buffergn0me: Same with Pre-Scheme 2020-03-05T06:06:16Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T06:06:36Z beach: With manual memory management, one restriction is that you can't write (f (g x)) anymore. You have to write something like (let* ((y (g x)) (z (f y))) (free y) z). 2020-03-05T06:07:34Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:08:07Z fookara quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T06:08:34Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:08:52Z fookara quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T06:10:33Z lxbarbosa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-05T06:10:56Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:14:41Z buffergn0me: ThinLisp tried to do things like that automatically in the easy cases, had memory regions for explicitly declaring object lifetimes, and would issue warnings about consing that would leak memory 2020-03-05T06:15:39Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:16:36Z fookara quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T06:19:11Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:20:14Z nitrix: loke, I'm not proposing refcouting. I'm actually researching regions. More like Carp, but without that linear feel with Rust borrow crap. 2020-03-05T06:21:19Z nitrix: loke, I'm interested by pass-by-copy semantics and to let the compiler optimize for a pointer for cases where that'd be expensive and can be provably be done safely. 2020-03-05T06:21:28Z nitrix: There's got to be a Lisp out there that has done this. 2020-03-05T06:21:32Z parjanya joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:21:35Z nitrix reading scrollback. 2020-03-05T06:21:57Z pjb: It should be noted that along with manual memory management, often comes manual error handling. So you would have to write actually: (let ((error nil)) (let ((y (g x (lambda (new-error) (setf error new-error))))) (if error (report-error error) (let ((z (f y (lambda (new-error) (setf error new-error))))) (if error (progn (free y) (report-error error) (progn (free y) z))))))) 2020-03-05T06:22:07Z beach: nitrix: That would not be a Common Lisp, and this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp. 2020-03-05T06:22:34Z beach: pjb: Heh. 2020-03-05T06:24:54Z fookara quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T06:26:31Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T06:28:15Z malm joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:29:00Z 92AAABOYZ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:29:19Z sauvin joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:30:32Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:31:10Z drainful: Carp is interesting; it's 2 basically languages that share similar syntax, which makes it seems more like a lisp-scriptable compiler than a lisp. The non-dynamic portion is not very lisp-like all things considered. 2020-03-05T06:32:27Z drainful: I had the idea to implement a Carp-like language with common lisp acting as the lisp half, which I think would be pretty great, but I didn't get very far. 2020-03-05T06:34:25Z parjanya quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-05T06:34:34Z nitrix: no-defun-allowed, I know people assume that a question like this implies I'm worried about performance due the GC or something like that, but I'm not. I use plenty of languages that are garbage collected and I don't give a crap. I am, though, researching something else right now, which happens to have been done (Linear Lisp proves it), and the interest is because being able to remove the GC implies you've also solved some other tricky problems 2020-03-05T06:34:34Z nitrix: with sharing semantics. 2020-03-05T06:35:30Z theruran joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:35:35Z nitrix: I know Common Lisp loves its memory sharing and this channel is full of CL worshippers so my only question, as phrased originally, are pointers to resources that would help me. 2020-03-05T06:39:15Z nitrix: no-defun-allowed, Also thank you :) 2020-03-05T06:42:55Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-05T06:43:12Z oxum_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-05T06:43:31Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:43:46Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T06:44:40Z dale quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep) 2020-03-05T06:45:02Z 92AAABOYZ quit (Quit: Quit) 2020-03-05T06:45:15Z brown121407 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:48:23Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-05T06:51:53Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:52:15Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-05T06:52:56Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T06:57:25Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:00:48Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T07:06:37Z beach: nitrix: It is not that this channel is "full of CL worshippers", but that this channel is specifically dedicated to Common Lisp. 2020-03-05T07:07:53Z beach: And that is fortunate, because otherwise we would get into endless arguments about whether this or that language is "a Lisp". 2020-03-05T07:08:10Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:08:39Z loke: beach: Yeah. That's such a fun discussion :-) 2020-03-05T07:09:08Z fookara quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T07:10:25Z beach: loke: Indeed. By the way, are you going to ELS this year? 2020-03-05T07:10:25Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T07:10:53Z no-defun-allowed: drainful: admittedly, I like linear logic more than the Carp system, partly because the former appears to work better with dynamic types, though duplicating fixnums and other small datum seems silly. 2020-03-05T07:12:15Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:12:25Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T07:12:57Z no-defun-allowed: But we wonder if it can handle something like (f (if C (use X) (don't use X)) (if C (don't use X) (use X))) where X is used exactly once, regardless of C, but it is a little tricky to tell. 2020-03-05T07:13:49Z akrl``` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-05T07:13:56Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:14:00Z akrl``` joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:14:35Z no-defun-allowed: As for regions...I think Poly/ML uses those in place of garbage collection? 2020-03-05T07:14:46Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T07:15:26Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:15:30Z drainful: no-defun-allowed: I think rust is getting gradually smarter with issues like that, though I haven't checked in on rust in months. 2020-03-05T07:15:39Z no-defun-allowed: No, not Poly. 2020-03-05T07:15:55Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-05T07:16:00Z loke: beach: Doesn't seem like it :-( 2020-03-05T07:16:03Z loke: when is it again? 2020-03-05T07:16:25Z no-defun-allowed: MLKit is is. 2020-03-05T07:17:25Z mingus joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:17:48Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:17:57Z no-defun-allowed: drainful: Maybe. I think it also uses a large set of rules for rewriting tricky problems like that into simpler ones though. 2020-03-05T07:19:26Z drainful: Another issue is that in lisp I think providing good error messages for linear logic would be hellish with macros and all. Ideally you would have some way to extend macros to rewrite error messages or something. 2020-03-05T07:21:37Z ebrasca: loke: ELS is every year. 2020-03-05T07:21:57Z loke: ebrasca: Hah :-) 2020-03-05T07:22:27Z no-defun-allowed: I would prefer if the program was patched automatically to insert an appropriate duplicate or kill form, so ideally error messages wouldn't be needed. 2020-03-05T07:23:02Z drainful: Interesting 2020-03-05T07:23:14Z ck_: loke: els is scheduled for april 27th and 28th 2020-03-05T07:24:00Z no-defun-allowed: It seems very possible to automagically patch linear programs like that. 2020-03-05T07:25:08Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T07:25:36Z loke: ck_: it won't be cancelled like all other events these days? 2020-03-05T07:26:00Z ck_: loke: :) right now, els is still scheducled for april 27th and 28th. 2020-03-05T07:26:48Z no-defun-allowed: Anyways, eeeer Common Lisp? Yes, I wrote a linearity checker in that. I had hoped I could make a linear->CL translator, but we need to avoid the heap as much as possible and that would require some odd representations. 2020-03-05T07:29:06Z drainful: no-defun-allowed: I never considered automatically patching linear programs, looking at Rust and ATS had me in a different mindset. Are there any examples or reading material regarding that technique? 2020-03-05T07:29:20Z trittweiler: loke: events with more than 1000 participants are prohibited from taking place in Switzerland as a measure against the coronavirus outbreak. I doubt ELS will accrue that many participants :) 2020-03-05T07:30:04Z loke: trittweiler: I never considered rules against meetings, but rather that some travellers may not want to travel. 2020-03-05T07:30:18Z loke: Also, for some reason some countries have designated Singapore as high risk. 2020-03-05T07:32:23Z jackdaniel: if I were looking unconspiciously at the map and there were a single red dot on it, I'd become alert immedietely ;-) 2020-03-05T07:33:17Z brown121407 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T07:34:09Z loke: Hah, well, singapore is indeed just a red dot :-) 2020-03-05T07:34:26Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T07:35:01Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T07:39:25Z rwcom quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T07:39:34Z flip214: "Get your virus while it's still fresh" 2020-03-05T07:39:54Z rwcom joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:41:46Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:42:18Z Arylla quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T07:44:26Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:45:12Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T07:46:37Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:51:42Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:51:44Z oxum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-05T07:52:08Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:55:13Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-05T07:56:43Z Shinmera: loke: I expect attendance won't be an all-time high this year, both because of that, but also because Zürich is expensive. 2020-03-05T07:56:51Z madrik quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-05T07:58:05Z Shinmera: But no, ELS won't be cancelled unless Didier or I get sick, I suppose. 2020-03-05T07:58:12Z Shinmera: Or the venue closes down. 2020-03-05T08:00:05Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T08:00:22Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-03-05T08:06:45Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-05T08:11:09Z no-defun-allowed: drainful: Nope, I came up with it because I don't particularly like the stereotypically whiny kind of compilers. If they know what the problem is, they frequently can propose a solution, and when they can, they can't rewrite the source material to fix it and go on. 2020-03-05T08:11:25Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-05T08:13:21Z no-defun-allowed: If a batch compiler could fix some issues automatically and update the source with those fixes like that, I think it would be much less painful. 2020-03-05T08:13:31Z ljavorsk__ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T08:14:34Z drainful: That's a good idea. Maybe you could throw in some warning for it when you have (optimize (speed 3)) or something. The remaining impossible to solve casesn should be relatively few. 2020-03-05T08:14:55Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-05T08:16:19Z ljavorsk_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T08:17:35Z no-defun-allowed: I do need to emphasise "frequently" though, as some problems are very hard to solve but easy to verify; but when it's something like "you wrote %d in the format string but should have used %llu", come on... 2020-03-05T08:19:16Z trittweiler: how do you know what the intention was? 2020-03-05T08:19:21Z drainful: You could write a machine-learning powered "Did you mean this?" engine 2020-03-05T08:19:33Z drainful: terrible idea, but you could 2020-03-05T08:20:05Z ljavorsk__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T08:20:30Z ljavorsk__ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T08:20:39Z no-defun-allowed: Typically whatever doesn't produce an error; some C compilers can "type check" printf arguments against the string, so printf("%f", 2) would be an error. 2020-03-05T08:20:57Z trittweiler: IDEs do offer ways to quickly fix such things after input from the user. Some things, mostly stylistic things with a clear guarantee of preserving semantics, can also be applied automatically by tooling. See `clang-tidy -fixit` etc. 2020-03-05T08:21:18Z no-defun-allowed: The intention was either that the argument should have been a float, or that the format string should have been "%d", but since it is a constant, the latter is more likely. 2020-03-05T08:21:24Z no-defun-allowed: Or put in other terms, gimme DWIM 2020-03-05T08:22:17Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-05T08:28:37Z drainful: As long as its explicit when these assumptions are made. A lot of people would prefer that on the IDE level I think, which is often done. 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mingus quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-03-05T10:05:06Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T10:06:15Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2020-03-05T10:10:05Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-05T10:10:36Z Arylla joined #lisp 2020-03-05T10:12:20Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-05T10:13:38Z aeth: When is ELS? 2020-03-05T10:14:13Z beach: April 27th and 28th. 2020-03-05T10:14:43Z no-defun-allowed: https://european-lisp-symposium.org/2020/index.html has the details of this year's ELS. 2020-03-05T10:15:35Z aeth: Oh, yeah, that's soon so I guess coronavirus will hurt attendance, especially since it's big in Italy 2020-03-05T10:16:10Z beach: Zürich is not in Italy. 2020-03-05T10:16:35Z aeth: Neighboring. I guess not as close as it seems because of all of the mountains in between, though 2020-03-05T10:16:40Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-05T10:17:04Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T10:17:56Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T10:18:29Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-05T10:18:49Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-05T10:23:38Z splittist: Are folks anticipating arriving in Zurich on Saturday rather than Sunday for ELS? 2020-03-05T10:24:04Z beach: We will be there much earlier. Let me check... 2020-03-05T10:24:27Z Shinmera: splittist: there's typically a small event on the Sunday before the event. 2020-03-05T10:24:29Z beach: Friday around noon. 2020-03-05T10:24:58Z beach: And we stay until Thursday April 30. 2020-03-05T10:26:22Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T10:28:20Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-05T10:29:15Z peterhil` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T10:31:07Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-03-05T10:31:12Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-05T10:31:48Z Arylla quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T10:37:22Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-05T10:40:52Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T10:42:00Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T10:42:10Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-05T11:05:05Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T11:07:32Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-05T11:10:40Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T11:14:15Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-05T11:15:13Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-05T11:16:14Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-03-05T11:19:28Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-05T11:19:44Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T11:20:27Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T11:21:00Z oxum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-05T11:21:29Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T11:23:25Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-05T11:33:31Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Quit: Bye !) 2020-03-05T11:35:50Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T11:39:32Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-03-05T11:43:56Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T11:44:21Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2020-03-05T11:49:06Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-05T11:52:33Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T11:53:38Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T11:55:23Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T11:56:24Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-05T11:56:30Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-05T11:56:46Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-05T11:59:00Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T12:01:32Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T12:03:04Z gko_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T12:04:43Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T12:05:49Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T12:11:52Z oxum_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T12:13:32Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T12:17:29Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-05T12:18:30Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T12:18:41Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T12:23:14Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T12:25:25Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T12:28:07Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-05T12:31:39Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T12:32:49Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T12:34:32Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T12:37:44Z jmercouris: I'm so tired of the C++ tyranny we live under 2020-03-05T12:38:06Z jmercouris: when can we use clasp :D? 2020-03-05T12:40:26Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T12:41:46Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T12:42:08Z xkapastel joined #lisp 2020-03-05T12:42:41Z beach: I don't feel any such tyranny. 2020-03-05T12:43:48Z jmercouris: I sure do, I'm running an OS programmed in C, on an X86 progress, with a bunch of C++ programs 2020-03-05T12:44:36Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-05T12:46:46Z beach: That's true. I suppose the programs that crash or misbehave might be written in C++. 2020-03-05T12:47:27Z Duuqnd: I'm currently developing a game in Common Lisp and nearly all my significant problems come from the C libraries I use. 2020-03-05T12:47:40Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T12:48:12Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T12:48:56Z jmercouris: I'm also facing significant problems with some C++ libraries I have to interact with 2020-03-05T12:49:00Z beach refrains from saying the obvious. 2020-03-05T12:49:08Z jmercouris: something something CLIM :-D 2020-03-05T12:49:16Z beach: "have to"? 2020-03-05T12:49:28Z beach: jmercouris: It's a choice. 2020-03-05T12:49:33Z jmercouris: well sure, if i had 10 million dollars, I could choose not to 2020-03-05T12:49:42Z jmercouris: but since I do not, well, here we are :-) 2020-03-05T12:49:52Z beach: Where does such a number come from? 2020-03-05T12:50:02Z jmercouris: that's a low estimate for writing a simple web renderer 2020-03-05T12:50:08Z jmercouris: from the ground up in CL 2020-03-05T12:50:18Z beach: But you don't have to write any code at all. That's a choice too. 2020-03-05T12:50:19Z jmercouris: Consider how long Mozilla spent on Servo 2020-03-05T12:50:27Z jmercouris: OK, fair enough, these are all choices 2020-03-05T12:50:34Z beach: Exactly. 2020-03-05T12:50:38Z Duuqnd: I need to use C libraries to get access to OpenGL and the stuff surrounding it. Rewriting from scratch isn't always an option. 2020-03-05T12:51:14Z jmercouris: I mean it is *technically* an option 2020-03-05T12:51:21Z jmercouris: practically speaking, it is not an option 2020-03-05T12:51:28Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Quit: Bye !) 2020-03-05T12:54:18Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-05T12:56:19Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:01:05Z montaropdf joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:02:32Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T13:04:23Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-05T13:05:01Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:05:59Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:09:15Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T13:09:36Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:13:05Z makomo joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:13:45Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T13:15:17Z iv-so joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:26:11Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:28:06Z iv-so quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-05T13:30:03Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T13:30:29Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:35:10Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T13:35:42Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:40:51Z HDurer joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:43:42Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T13:44:12Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:46:53Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-05T13:48:55Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T13:50:24Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:50:59Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:52:26Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:52:54Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:53:31Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-05T13:53:37Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T13:55:40Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T13:56:55Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T13:58:22Z paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T13:58:35Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-05T13:59:28Z cosimone_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:02:29Z Duuqnd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-05T14:03:30Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T14:05:59Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:09:24Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T14:09:57Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:10:11Z cosimone_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-05T14:11:06Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T14:11:22Z paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T14:11:28Z nmg joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:11:58Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:12:20Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2020-03-05T14:14:20Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:16:12Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T14:16:22Z paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T14:16:26Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:16:37Z lucasb joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:16:56Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:18:22Z paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T14:18:53Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:19:06Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:19:33Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:20:34Z gmeister joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:22:39Z gmeister quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-05T14:23:00Z gmeister joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:23:25Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T14:24:25Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T14:26:04Z gmeister quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-05T14:26:20Z gmeister joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:27:19Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:27:30Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T14:29:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T14:30:05Z p_l: thodg_: if you don't have a registered nickname with services, only Ops see your messages. This is a temporary measure due to raging spambots 2020-03-05T14:30:59Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:32:24Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:33:55Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:34:26Z cosimone_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:34:40Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T14:35:17Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:35:43Z mingus joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:35:55Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T14:39:56Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:40:32Z Xach joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:40:37Z cosimone_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T14:43:09Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:44:44Z KDr2 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T14:48:38Z cosimone_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:49:04Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-05T14:49:29Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:51:05Z thodg_ left #lisp 2020-03-05T14:51:20Z thodg joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:52:05Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:53:08Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:53:33Z cosimone_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T14:53:38Z makomo joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:55:15Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-03-05T14:57:49Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T15:00:39Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-05T15:00:50Z nmg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T15:03:33Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-05T15:05:43Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-05T15:05:47Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-05T15:10:55Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T15:11:33Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-03-05T15:12:00Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-05T15:13:28Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-05T15:17:16Z shka_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2020-03-05T15:19:13Z efm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-05T15:19:46Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T15:22:53Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Quit: Bye !) 2020-03-05T15:26:08Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T15:30:19Z p_l has set mode -q $-a 2020-03-05T15:36:15Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-05T15:37:03Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T15:37:38Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T15:40:42Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T15:47:39Z thodg: Hello 2020-03-05T15:47:53Z thodg: this registration requirement is hard 2020-03-05T15:48:14Z thodg: is IRC doomed ? 2020-03-05T15:50:39Z ecraven: no 2020-03-05T15:50:50Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T15:51:34Z phoe: thodg: not really hard, /msg nickserv help should get you up and running 2020-03-05T15:51:49Z phoe: if anything, IRC is a victim of its own success now that freenode spambots are rampaging 2020-03-05T15:53:18Z jayspeer joined #lisp 2020-03-05T15:56:37Z p_l: I removed it just now 2020-03-05T15:56:51Z jackdaniel: you've removed freenode? 2020-03-05T15:56:54Z jackdaniel: @s 2020-03-05T15:57:13Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | | ASDF 3.3.4 2020-03-05T15:57:17Z jackdaniel: ekhm, last message was weird accidential keypress not involving 'return' 2020-03-05T15:57:55Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T16:00:49Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-05T16:01:25Z phoe: freenode was removed 2020-03-05T16:01:40Z phoe: we are officially moving to quakenet, just as the prophecie^Wspambots foretold 2020-03-05T16:07:44Z montaropdf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-03-05T16:09:08Z thodg: so i was trying to spam ANSI C to rescue garbage collected real time needs 2020-03-05T16:09:18Z thodg: https://rtbuf.kmx.io/ 2020-03-05T16:10:33Z thodg: I want to structure game programming with audio and opengl rendering in C/rtbuf and higher level constructs through a binary I/O protocol giving Common Lisp and other garbage collected programming languages real time abilities 2020-03-05T16:11:22Z thodg: this would give us some slack regarding C++ domination 2020-03-05T16:11:46Z smazga joined #lisp 2020-03-05T16:13:38Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-05T16:15:49Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: are the libraries c++ you've complained about all web renderers? 2020-03-05T16:16:27Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-05T16:19:32Z jayspeer: sorry if this was answered previously - why is #lisp moving from freenode to quakenet? I'm out of the loop 2020-03-05T16:19:49Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-05T16:19:55Z jackdaniel: jayspeer: nobody is moving 2020-03-05T16:20:23Z jackdaniel: phoe was joking in reference to a recent spambot incident 2020-03-05T16:20:25Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T16:20:49Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.2)) 2020-03-05T16:22:06Z zulu_inuoe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T16:25:20Z jayspeer: jackdaniel: oh, thanks. I got really confused for a few minutes 2020-03-05T16:25:31Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-05T16:27:34Z jackdaniel: sure; I suppose I'm to be blamed for joking that freenode has been removed :) 2020-03-05T16:28:09Z jayspeer: a little of humor is always welcome :) 2020-03-05T16:32:17Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-03-05T16:33:08Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-05T16:39:17Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T16:43:34Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T16:48:51Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T16:52:13Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-03-05T16:55:51Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-05T16:58:17Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T16:58:36Z aeth: What if #lisp moved to common-lispnet, though? :p 2020-03-05T16:59:12Z jackdaniel: I suppose some people would be on both and some would spread across two places 2020-03-05T16:59:52Z _paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T16:59:54Z dlowe: bridgebots... bridgebots everywhere. 2020-03-05T17:00:07Z xdecimal joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:00:18Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:00:59Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-05T17:03:56Z xdecimal quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-05T17:04:10Z jayspeer quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-03-05T17:04:51Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:07:01Z Arylla joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:11:08Z bitmapper quit 2020-03-05T17:13:07Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T17:13:32Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:16:55Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T17:17:21Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-05T17:21:27Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:24:48Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:25:06Z rpg joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:27:02Z zulu_inuoe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-05T17:27:52Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T17:29:12Z rpg: Is there any interest in adding a PARTITION function (like the one in ARNESI) to ALEXANDRIA? 2020-03-05T17:29:15Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:30:07Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-05T17:30:34Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-05T17:34:32Z srji joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:34:38Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2020-03-05T17:34:53Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:36:10Z LiamH joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:37:03Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:37:38Z davepdot_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T17:38:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T17:43:03Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:46:00Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:49:36Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:51:02Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:54:09Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T17:55:30Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T17:56:59Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-05T17:58:17Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T18:01:06Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T18:01:09Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-05T18:05:59Z slyrus__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T18:14:17Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-05T18:16:54Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-03-05T18:20:25Z paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-05T18:20:47Z gmeister quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4) 2020-03-05T18:21:16Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T18:21:22Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-03-05T18:22:47Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-03-05T18:23:31Z rj0d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T18:24:02Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T18:26:19Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-05T18:27:48Z Arylla quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-03-05T18:29:23Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-05T18:35:52Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-05T18:38:54Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T18:41:09Z Posterdati: hi 2020-03-05T18:41:46Z z147 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T18:42:21Z zulu_inuoe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T18:42:47Z Posterdati: is there anyone interested in provide 3 virtual machines to test gsll/antik, cffi and iolib under NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD? 2020-03-05T18:42:56Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-05T18:43:35Z sjl: rpg: I think one reason alexandria doesn't add much any more is that a lot of people (:use :alexandria), which means that if they add a new exported symbol it would break people's code if they've already got a PARTITION symbol in their package. 2020-03-05T18:43:54Z sjl: (which is why :use'ing a package you don't control is a bad idea, but here we are) 2020-03-05T18:45:10Z dale_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T18:45:28Z dale_ is now known as dale 2020-03-05T18:45:53Z jackdaniel: maybe alexandria should create a new package, i.e alexandria+, and clearly state in documentation, that list of exported symbols in this package may be extended (so that it is not a good idea to USE it) 2020-03-05T18:46:23Z rpg: sjl: Yes, I saw something to that effect on the ALEXANDRIA web site. I see the point, but it also means that the idea of Alexandria being the go-to utility library can't work because ... now we will need an ALEXANDRIA2 library... Actually, I wonder if one could make an ALEXANDRIA2 *package* and have programmers just choose whether or not to use them both or just ALEXANDRIA. Inelegant, but less inelegant than having to spawn a second utilities library. 2020-03-05T18:46:24Z jackdaniel: n.b, alexandria would /use/ alexandria+ (ha ha) 2020-03-05T18:46:59Z rpg: jackdaniel: I think we were both typing the same idea simultaneously! 2020-03-05T18:47:08Z jackdaniel: :) 2020-03-05T18:47:45Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-05T18:48:13Z jackdaniel: n.b, as ASDF maintainer I thought you'd propose uiop as the utlity library "to rule them all" 2020-03-05T18:48:28Z sjl: Yes, creating a separate alexandria-dont-USE-this-dammit package would work. 2020-03-05T18:48:59Z cosimone quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-05T18:50:23Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-05T18:50:24Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T18:53:31Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T18:54:35Z rpg: jackdaniel: Nope. UIOP provides functionality mostly for OS and IMPLEMENTATION portability, and some related tasks like handling configuration files. I don't want it to grow to be a general utility library. Of course, it has ended up having in it the utilities *it* needs. And almost everything is exported. 2020-03-05T18:55:16Z jackdaniel: uhm, thanks for elaborating 2020-03-05T18:55:17Z rpg: I feel like in honor of Bjarne Stroustrop, it should be ALEXANDRIA++ 2020-03-05T18:55:39Z rpg: Or perhaps YA-ALEXANDRIA 2020-03-05T18:56:09Z rpg: LIBRARY-OF-CONGRESS? BRITISH-LIBRARY? VATICAn_LIBRARY? 2020-03-05T18:56:51Z jackdaniel: to sustain a bad naming tradition in our ecosystem, it should be called trivial-library ;-) 2020-03-05T19:00:18Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T19:06:00Z rpg: I want to start making NON-TRIVIAL- libraries. 2020-03-05T19:06:34Z jackdaniel: #clim invites you to collaborate :) 2020-03-05T19:09:03Z rpg: Package nickname NON-TRIVIAL-DISPLAY-MANAGER 2020-03-05T19:10:38Z phoe: rpg: there is, to the point where I added such a function to phoe-toolbox. 2020-03-05T19:10:53Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T19:11:09Z rpg: phoe: I ended up copy-pasting the BESE definition, but it made me feel ugly. 2020-03-05T19:11:12Z phoe: But everyone has already explained why adding PARTITION to ALEXANDRIA would cause literal HAVOC for Xach when he tries to build the next quicklisp dist. 2020-03-05T19:11:37Z phoe: Like, all packages that (:use :alexandria :serapeum) will stop building, period. 2020-03-05T19:11:38Z rpg: phoe: Yeah, but I like ALEXANDRIA+:PARTITION 2020-03-05T19:11:52Z phoe: That's... a nice solution. 2020-03-05T19:12:10Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-05T19:12:27Z phoe: ;; I remember shitposting about so many utility libraries named after actual libraries. Alexandria, Serapeum, Constantia, Cesarum... 2020-03-05T19:12:37Z rpg: phoe: The first rule of Alexandria+ is "don't USE Alexandria+" 2020-03-05T19:13:04Z phoe: XD 2020-03-05T19:13:05Z thodg joined #lisp 2020-03-05T19:16:11Z jackdaniel: don't shitpost, I'm sure there are better ways to point out issues 2020-03-05T19:18:28Z phoe: I am aware, I need to actually make some effort and grow up instead. 2020-03-05T19:19:07Z phoe: People don't really need to see the shitposting side of me to read what I have to say about Lisp issues. 2020-03-05T19:20:21Z jackdaniel: (defpackage "Przemyska biblioteka publiczna" …) sounds like a plan too 2020-03-05T19:23:06Z phoe: (|Przemyska biblioteka publiczna|:partition #'evenp '(0 1 2 3 4 5)) 2020-03-05T19:23:15Z phoe: 10/10 would import 2020-03-05T19:23:40Z kajo quit (Quit: From my rotting body, flowers shall grow and I am in them and that is eternity. -- E. M.) 2020-03-05T19:24:37Z jackdaniel: right? 2020-03-05T19:25:30Z sjl: alexandria is surely popular enough to deserve the most concise package name around: "" 2020-03-05T19:25:42Z sjl: (||:partition #'evenp) 2020-03-05T19:26:10Z jackdaniel: that's actually reserved for the keyword package 2020-03-05T19:26:23Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-05T19:26:45Z sjl: no, KEYWORD is the keyword package... 2020-03-05T19:27:20Z sjl: https://paste.stevelosh.com/1f95379a1d9fe700b638b896bed12b1e4c3bcf69 2020-03-05T19:27:46Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T19:27:59Z Bike: finally, some reasonable syntax 2020-03-05T19:28:47Z jackdaniel: sjl: it is not conforming code, let me look for the passage in the spec 2020-03-05T19:28:48Z sjl: (defpackage "ALEX&RIA") perfect, even shorter 2020-03-05T19:30:47Z jackdaniel: (it may take a while, I don't remember which passage it is) 2020-03-05T19:31:36Z fouric: why not just (defpackage "A") 2020-03-05T19:31:52Z fouric: go all the way to the minimum 2020-03-05T19:32:08Z fouric: i suspect that many people use that package-local nickname for it, at least 2020-03-05T19:32:51Z sjl: clhs 11.1.2.3 2020-03-05T19:32:52Z specbot: The KEYWORD Package: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abc.htm 2020-03-05T19:33:02Z sjl: > Symbol tokens that start with a package marker are parsed by the Lisp reader as symbols in the KEYWORD package 2020-03-05T19:33:10Z sjl: ||:foo doesn't start with a package markekr 2020-03-05T19:33:23Z jackdaniel: I don't mean this section 2020-03-05T19:34:23Z jackdaniel: from my vague memory, it is stated /somewhere/: conforming implementation is allowed to define the keyword package nickname to "" (and that actually makes the reader slightly easier to write) 2020-03-05T19:35:38Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T19:35:46Z Shinmera: I looked in a bunch of places and could not find anything 2020-03-05T19:35:56Z Shinmera: another section states that the keyword package has no nicknames, so 2020-03-05T19:36:01Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-05T19:36:01Z jackdaniel: hm 2020-03-05T19:37:07Z Shinmera: I suppose an implementation might do it like that, but I'm not sure the spce has to explicitly allow it. 2020-03-05T19:37:22Z p_l: few implementations do exactly that 2020-03-05T19:37:23Z sjl: clhs 11.1.2 2020-03-05T19:37:23Z specbot: Standardized Packages: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_ab.htm 2020-03-05T19:37:40Z sjl: Name Nicknames 2020-03-05T19:37:42Z sjl: KEYWORD none 2020-03-05T19:38:05Z p_l: seems to me like acceptable break there 2020-03-05T19:38:23Z p_l: also, it doesn't mean they *can't* have more, from casual reading 2020-03-05T19:38:24Z jackdaniel: if I find it some day I'll come back triumphant ,) 2020-03-05T19:38:42Z phoe: fouric: (:local-nicknames (#:a #:alexandria)) 2020-03-05T19:38:43Z sjl: obviously alexandria using || would be ridiculous, but yeah, if you find where it says it can't then post it :) 2020-03-05T19:39:40Z phoe: (defpackage #.(format nil "~C" #\Nul) (:use :cl)) 2020-03-05T19:40:01Z phoe: have fun 2020-03-05T19:40:10Z fouric: phoe: exactly, everyone does it - might as well make it the actual package nam 2020-03-05T19:40:22Z fouric: hmmm, unicode is allowed in package names, right? 2020-03-05T19:40:24Z phoe: fouric: the actual package name is ALEXANDRIA.DEV.0 2020-03-05T19:40:29Z fouric: could you do a non-breaking space? 2020-03-05T19:40:32Z fouric: oh, TIL 2020-03-05T19:41:59Z _death: you could also go the other way around and export alexandria:unuse-package, which would be a shadowed symbol not eq to cl:unuse-package.. this will show them :users 2020-03-05T19:42:18Z dra joined #lisp 2020-03-05T19:43:48Z phoe: _death: I see that the number of lispers is not low enough for you 2020-03-05T19:46:00Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T19:47:42Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T19:48:50Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-03-05T19:53:05Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T19:53:13Z flazh quit (Quit: flazh) 2020-03-05T19:55:02Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-03-05T19:57:21Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-05T20:00:10Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T20:01:03Z thodg joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:04:33Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-05T20:05:22Z ArthurStrong joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:07:19Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T20:08:40Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T20:10:12Z zulu_inuoe_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:12:38Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T20:12:47Z zulu_inuoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-05T20:14:29Z peterhil` joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:21:32Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:22:05Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:23:28Z impulse joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:23:31Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:24:25Z flazh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-05T20:25:33Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:26:07Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T20:26:30Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:26:48Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T20:27:26Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T20:29:00Z smazga joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:30:21Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:39:29Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-05T20:39:38Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:41:03Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:41:15Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T20:42:26Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:42:50Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T20:43:28Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-05T20:50:36Z zulu_inuoe_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T20:54:51Z mrcom joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:57:27Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-05T20:59:06Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T21:00:37Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-03-05T21:05:54Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-03-05T21:08:32Z dra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T21:10:22Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T21:10:42Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-05T21:21:09Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-05T21:21:17Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-05T21:22:38Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-05T21:23:13Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-05T21:33:06Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T21:33:41Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-05T21:34:14Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T21:38:00Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-05T21:40:55Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-05T21:43:32Z efm_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T21:43:47Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-05T21:44:03Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-05T21:45:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-05T21:56:44Z pjb: If you want a frozen export list, you can (:use "ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0") instead of (:use "ALEXANDRIA"). 2020-03-05T21:57:51Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T21:58:08Z pjb: Perhaps "ALEXANDRIA" should have been named "ALEXANDRIA-WITH-UNFROZEN-EXPORT-LIST", but lispers usually assume that lispers are smart… 2020-03-05T21:58:40Z pjb: The more I live, the more I realize that assuming people are smart, or even intelligent is an error. 2020-03-05T21:58:59Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-05T21:59:34Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-05T21:59:57Z izh_ joined #lisp 2020-03-05T22:01:01Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-05T22:01:27Z pjb: sjl: "" is a nickname added to the "KEYWORD" package in clisp; it's a kludge. But it's conforming: an implementation can have implementation-specific packages and package nicknames. 2020-03-05T22:02:13Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-05T22:02:25Z pjb: phoe: using #\nul in lisp sources, if it can be read by the implementation, should pose no problem, as long as the editor can deal with it. 2020-03-05T22:02:55Z pjb: phoe: note, emacs deals with it just right and nice: 2020-03-05T22:07:16Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2020-03-05T22:09:24Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-05T22:10:42Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-05T22:11:04Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-05T22:13:23Z phoe: ...and ten minutes later, there were no more posts from pjb 2020-03-05T22:13:34Z phoe: the best proof that what he was saying was true 2020-03-05T22:13:46Z phoe: even if his emacs session did not live to tell the tale™ 2020-03-05T22:13:52Z phoe mic drops, goes to #lispcafe 2020-03-05T22:14:32Z phoe: pjb: "If you want a frozen export list" don't tell that to me, tell that to literally every piece of code that goes :use :alexandria 2020-03-05T22:14:41Z phoe: and there's hundreds of packages like that. 2020-03-05T22:17:23Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-05T22:17:43Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-05T22:20:39Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-05T22:21:08Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-05T22:21:41Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: please don't use the Unlicence, since it's unclear if it's allowed to waive copyright like that 2020-03-05T22:21:53Z fe[nl]ix: just use the MIT licence 2020-03-05T22:22:45Z Odin-: fe[nl]ix: CC0 2020-03-05T22:22:57Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-05T22:23:00Z aeth: Yes, CC0 is more legally bulletproof than Unlicense, probably. 2020-03-05T22:23:02Z sjl: CC0 is a good choice 2020-03-05T22:23:11Z aeth: CC0 is probably a good fit for documentation. 2020-03-05T22:23:19Z Odin-: MIT simply doesn't do the same thing, and doesn't even purport to do the same thing. 2020-03-05T22:23:25Z margeas joined #lisp 2020-03-05T22:26:32Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-05T22:26:55Z fe[nl]ix: I don't think CC0 is suitable for code 2020-03-05T22:26:56Z fe[nl]ix: see https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/133/how-could-using-code-released-under-cc0-infringe-on-the-authors-patents 2020-03-05T22:27:06Z Odin-: It's entirely appropriate for code. 2020-03-05T22:27:43Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-05T22:28:10Z aeth: Software patents are an issue with the US legal system. Building a permanent international license around a particular, temporary issue in the US legal system doesn't seem necessary. 2020-03-05T22:29:02Z aeth: No one even wants software patents. The issue is that the legislatures have to find a way to exclude software patents while keeping the conceptually similar pharma patents because the latter industry has deep pockets. 2020-03-05T22:29:05Z fe[nl]ix: it's not that temporary, and US-based contributors are many 2020-03-05T22:29:06Z Odin-: fe[nl]ix: That article seems to presume that not mentioning patents is any kind of protection. 2020-03-05T22:29:14Z fe[nl]ix: so it is a concern to me 2020-03-05T22:29:15Z Odin-: fe[nl]ix: That's simply incorrect. 2020-03-05T22:29:35Z fe[nl]ix: what ? 2020-03-05T22:29:53Z Odin-: Licences that do not mention patents, like MIT, do not protect you against patents either. 2020-03-05T22:30:04Z aeth: fe[nl]ix: If (almost) no one in the software industry wants software patents, then, yes, they're a temporary legal issue that will eventually go away. 2020-03-05T22:30:14Z Odin-: It would only be if the licence _specifically_ states that patent rights are granted. 2020-03-05T22:30:51Z fe[nl]ix: aeth: good luck with that, there's no possibility in sight that they will be eliminated in the US 2020-03-05T22:31:38Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-05T22:31:42Z Odin-: That only leaves copyleft licences. 2020-03-05T22:32:57Z Odin-: Basically, software patents are a risk, no matter the copyright licence. 2020-03-05T22:33:25Z Odin-: (Some copyright licences double as patent licences, however.) 2020-03-05T22:33:39Z aeth: fe[nl]ix: The US software industry itself doesn't want software patents. Thus, they will go away eventually. The last thing the US wants is to give up its edge in software to another country. 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2020-03-06T01:52:59Z bitmapper quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-06T01:53:03Z mingus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-06T01:53:27Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T01:53:33Z shifty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T01:53:34Z specbot joined #lisp 2020-03-06T01:53:37Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-06T01:53:39Z mingus joined #lisp 2020-03-06T01:53:39Z kamog quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T01:53:47Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-06T01:54:06Z kamog joined #lisp 2020-03-06T01:54:13Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: sounds good 2020-03-06T01:54:22Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-06T01:57:04Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2020-03-06T01:58:35Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-06T02:01:10Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-06T02:03:13Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-06T02:05:06Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-06T02:06:17Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-06T02:07:11Z 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joined #lisp 2020-03-06T03:20:23Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T03:20:53Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-06T03:32:19Z no-defun-allowed: What type specifies that an array has a fill pointer and is adjustable? 2020-03-06T03:32:23Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T03:32:25Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL seems to use (and array (not simple-array)) 2020-03-06T03:32:54Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-06T03:32:56Z Bike: there isn't one, short of satisfies. an implementation could allow simple-arrays with adjustability and/or fill pointers 2020-03-06T03:33:00Z Bike: sbcl doesn't 2020-03-06T03:34:14Z no-defun-allowed: Bummer. 2020-03-06T03:34:18Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-03-06T03:36:23Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T03:36:53Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. 2020-03-06T03:38:27Z nicball joined #lisp 2020-03-06T03:39:47Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-06T03:43:36Z caltelt joined #lisp 2020-03-06T03:48:34Z emys quit (Ping 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Is there anyone interested in provide 3 virtual machines to test gsll/antik, cffi and iolib under NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD? Thanks for help! 2020-03-06T07:51:51Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-06T07:52:49Z no-defun-allowed: I hate to be rude, but what prevents you from setting up virtual machines? 2020-03-06T07:59:09Z montaropdf joined #lisp 2020-03-06T08:05:41Z oxum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-06T08:06:28Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-06T08:11:26Z phoe: Posterdati: https://man.sr.ht/builds.sr.ht/compatibility.md can provide you with FreeBSD and OpenBSD 2020-03-06T08:12:33Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-06T08:15:03Z Posterdati: phoe: hi! What is this? 2020-03-06T08:15:15Z phoe: builds.sr.ht is a CI service 2020-03-06T08:15:39Z phoe: they can run VMs along with descriptions of what they need to build, and then they build stuff. 2020-03-06T08:15:59Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-06T08:16:04Z Posterdati: phoe: quicklisp packages too? 2020-03-06T08:16:12Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-06T08:16:33Z phoe: Posterdati: they aren't suited for Lisp, I think you'll need to manually instruct a VM to install a Lisp image and download+install Quicklisp. 2020-03-06T08:19:33Z kamog quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-06T08:21:34Z Posterdati: ok, this is not free 2020-03-06T08:25:46Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-06T08:28:38Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-06T08:35:09Z schweers joined #lisp 2020-03-06T08:36:09Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-06T08:36:53Z Nomenclatura left #lisp 2020-03-06T08:38:10Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-06T08:43:51Z makomo joined #lisp 2020-03-06T08:50:02Z emys quit (Ping 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2020-03-06T11:11:38Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-06T11:13:16Z Odin-: It seems to me like it's kinda difficult to pull apart Lisp(y) notions of interfaces and the evolution of Emacs. 2020-03-06T11:13:18Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-03-06T11:15:06Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-06T11:25:54Z rwcom7 joined #lisp 2020-03-06T11:27:34Z rwcom quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-06T11:27:34Z rwcom7 is now known as rwcom 2020-03-06T11:30:30Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-06T11:33:32Z rwcom6 joined #lisp 2020-03-06T11:33:48Z makomo: hello 2020-03-06T11:34:55Z rwcom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-06T11:34:55Z rwcom6 is now known as rwcom 2020-03-06T11:43:35Z xkapastel joined #lisp 2020-03-06T11:47:26Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-06T11:48:12Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-06T11:52:39Z heredoc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-06T11:52:45Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-06T11:53:13Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 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men) -> (is big) ? 2020-03-06T12:51:52Z Shinmera: better question: why is he not banned from here, too? 2020-03-06T12:52:34Z thodg: paule32: you should read the CLHS about list functions 2020-03-06T12:52:34Z ChanServ has set mode +o Shinmera 2020-03-06T12:53:16Z jackdaniel stares at Shinmera 2020-03-06T12:53:18Z tabaqui quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6-rc2) 2020-03-06T12:53:24Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: So you want me to do the dirty work, eh 2020-03-06T12:53:43Z jackdaniel pretends he knows nothing about this 2020-03-06T12:54:56Z jackdaniel: eh, nick "Pilate" is already in use 2020-03-06T12:55:23Z Shinmera has set mode +b *!*@p200300C33F0E9F00C1C18EB072C1F2A0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de 2020-03-06T12:55:29Z paule32 [~shinmera@supersolid.equilibrium.tymoon.eu] has been kicked from #lisp by Shinmera (paule32) 2020-03-06T12:55:54Z Shinmera has set mode -o Shinmera 2020-03-06T12:56:13Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-06T12:57:03Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:00:44Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-06T13:01:02Z lucasb joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:01:39Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:04:36Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:05:59Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:07:19Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:09:31Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:09:40Z schweers: Is there a recommended way to load a text file as a string at compile-time or load-time? I want to load a SQL file, which resides in the source tree, into the lisp image. I’m pretty sure I once did something similar, but it wasn’t exactly pretty and I don’t remember the details. 2020-03-06T13:09:46Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:11:37Z phoe: schweers: load-time? that's defparameter over alexandria:read-file-into-string 2020-03-06T13:11:55Z Shinmera: (load-time-value (make-my-foo)) 2020-03-06T13:12:21Z jackdaniel: (defvar *string* #.(alexandria:read-file-into-string …)) 2020-03-06T13:12:25Z _death: consider doing it at runtime and caching the result 2020-03-06T13:12:33Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-06T13:15:28Z jackdaniel: I'd like to do it like (copy-file #P"/foo/bar.sql" #P"virtual:my-app;resources;file.sql") 2020-03-06T13:17:49Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-06T13:19:25Z _death: you could always "fill the cache" and dump an image 2020-03-06T13:19:33Z phoe: virtual Lisp filesystems integrated into the pathname system... aaaah 2020-03-06T13:20:25Z pjb: or when you generate the saved lisp image! 2020-03-06T13:20:39Z pjb: (this can be a different time than compile or load which would be performed by quicklisp). 2020-03-06T13:21:38Z heredoc joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:22:21Z pjb: jackdaniel: for this, you want a virtual file system in the lisp image. I started to implement such a thing (without gray stream, which means re-implementing the whole chapters 19 and 20… You could do it with gray stream this week-end… https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/future/vfs 2020-03-06T13:23:13Z jackdaniel: pjb: I've seen your repository some time ago, it was very informative (thank you) 2020-03-06T13:23:39Z pjb: Actually, you would still need to implement most of those chapters, if you want to be able to use similar operations to deal with those virtual pathnames and virtual files… 2020-03-06T13:23:49Z pjb: This is another part of CL that would need a good HOOK. 2020-03-06T13:24:40Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:31:21Z ebzzry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-06T13:33:17Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:41:02Z ebrasca: Can you load some lybrary as some list/tree? 2020-03-06T13:41:56Z phoe: what do you mean, as some list/tree? 2020-03-06T13:42:44Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:42:58Z schweers: Okay, so there is not /one/ recommended way to do it ;) 2020-03-06T13:43:17Z schweers: Thanks for the answers, I’ll check which suits my needs best. 2020-03-06T13:43:47Z schweers: asdf’s :static-file has nothing to do with this, right? 2020-03-06T13:43:54Z Shinmera: right. 2020-03-06T13:44:10Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:44:46Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-06T13:47:53Z ebrasca: phoe: Load some lybrary as list to be able to search duplicated code. 2020-03-06T13:49:02Z jackdaniel: sort-of naive code walking? 2020-03-06T13:49:06Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:49:28Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-06T13:51:02Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:52:07Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-06T13:52:36Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: I think yes 2020-03-06T13:52:55Z LiamH joined #lisp 2020-03-06T13:54:03Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-06T13:55:37Z ebrasca is lost in the infinite sea , he wonder what to do. 2020-03-06T13:58:00Z phoe: ebrasca: I think it is not doable with ASDF. You'd need to write your own tool for that. 2020-03-06T13:59:54Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-06T14:00:11Z jonatack quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-06T14:00:20Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-06T14:03:09Z pjb: Well, you can define methods on asdf operations to be able to read the source without loading it. 2020-03-06T14:03:10Z montxero joined #lisp 2020-03-06T14:03:27Z pjb: You would want to do that to benefit from the load-in-order and loading of dependencies provided by asdf. 2020-03-06T14:03:47Z pjb: But note also that reading sources in lisp may requires some loading and/or some compiling! 2020-03-06T14:03:56Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-06T14:03:59Z pjb: So it's easier to just load it. 2020-03-06T14:04:14Z pjb: ebrasca: see for example how documentation extractors do it. 2020-03-06T14:05:40Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-06T14:05:52Z pjb: If you wanted to read lisp sources without loading them you would have to 1- implement your own reader (or use com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader). 2- implement the reading of things that are not lisp objects, such as #+/#- conditionals or #. expressions. 2020-03-06T14:06:51Z pjb: ebrasca: For example, you could want to detect that some library contains code that is compiled and loaded on some specific systems on some specific platform, that is duplicate with some other library on the same system and platform, but not on a different system or platform. 2020-03-06T14:07:26Z pjb: Or you can also just implement some naive tool that will break on special cases, but that will work on 80% of the lisp sources around. 2020-03-06T14:07:47Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-06T14:08:23Z pjb: In the later case, you don't care about the reading of source files in a library in any specific oder. Just take the source files and read them, and fold when an error occurs. 2020-03-06T14:09:49Z pjb: ebrasca: you could want at minima, to interpret the defpackage and in-package forms, since this will be needed to read qualified symbols and symbols in the right package, but even that, in a naive tool, you could just not do it. (just read everything in your own package). 2020-03-06T14:11:12Z semz joined #lisp 2020-03-06T14:12:28Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-06T14:14:50Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-06T14:15:14Z ebrasca: pjb: My idea is to read some lybraries and reduce duplication. 2020-03-06T14:16:06Z pjb: have a look at https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/tools 2020-03-06T14:16:35Z jackdaniel: libraries* 2020-03-06T14:17:04Z pjb: an alternative would be to indeed compile and load the libraries, but use ibcl to keep track of the sources, that you can then process once they are loaded. 2020-03-06T14:17:20Z pjb: ebrasca: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ 2020-03-06T14:20:26Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2020-03-06T14:20:49Z shka_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2020-03-06T14:21:16Z oxum_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T14:21:59Z montxero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T14:23:15Z montxero joined #lisp 2020-03-06T14:23:31Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-06T14:28:20Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-03-06T14:33:39Z ebrasca: I have think what if there is are variations , they make it harder. 2020-03-06T14:35:11Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-06T14:40:34Z pjb: ebrasca: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplicate_code#Detecting_duplicate_code 2020-03-06T14:41:02Z pjb: University professors have researched the problem to detect automatically copier students… 2020-03-06T14:42:26Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-06T14:43:30Z ebrasca: Maybe with my duplicated code detector I may be able to meke new common lisp ( NCL ) 2020-03-06T14:45:03Z Xach: ebrasca: yes 2020-03-06T14:46:36Z jackdaniel: NIL, please call it NIL, and add :NIL to features! 2020-03-06T14:47:04Z ebrasca: lol 2020-03-06T14:47:05Z jackdaniel: and name the extension package NILE 2020-03-06T14:47:43Z jackdaniel: NIL (newly implemented lisp) 2020-03-06T14:50:01Z White_Flame: The next version should be from the general community, so calling it Community Lisp (CL) won't be confusing at all 2020-03-06T14:51:25Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-06T14:51:44Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-06T14:51:49Z jackdaniel hopes for the hell breaking loose from all #+nil foobar sources 2020-03-06T14:52:49Z edgar-rft: you mean this? -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIL_(programming_language) 2020-03-06T14:55:04Z ebrasca: Then Community Lisp (CL) it is. 2020-03-06T14:55:19Z ebrasca: I don't like to generate confusion. 2020-03-06T14:56:06Z edgar-rft: let's get infected with Corona Lisp 2020-03-06T14:56:20Z schweers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T14:57:49Z montxero: Most people who get infected with any (because there are multiple different strains in the familiy) corona virus will survive it. 2020-03-06T14:58:18Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-03-06T14:58:43Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-06T14:58:47Z edgar-rft: how bad 2020-03-06T14:59:07Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2020-03-06T14:59:13Z montxero: lol, nobody has survived life yet... don't give up yet 2020-03-06T14:59:42Z White_Flame: is it too late for me to release Ebolisp? 2020-03-06T15:00:45Z phoe: the file extension will be EBOLisp Applicaton = *.ebola 2020-03-06T15:01:19Z montxero: hahahahahahaha 2020-03-06T15:02:20Z montxero: apparently there is a cure for that: if you are British or American 2020-03-06T15:02:51Z montxero: But damn... think of all the devices that will be quarantined.. 2020-03-06T15:04:04Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-06T15:04:09Z jackdaniel: jokes which drag for too long shall go to lispcafe (and yes, I'm aware I've started it) 2020-03-06T15:04:17Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-06T15:05:14Z White_Flame: but you're not even in there! 2020-03-06T15:05:51Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-06T15:06:08Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-03-06T15:06:22Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T15:06:27Z jackdaniel: shh 2020-03-06T15:06:36Z luckless joined #lisp 2020-03-06T15:09:07Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-06T15:10:33Z rpg joined #lisp 2020-03-06T15:12:35Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T15:13:31Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-06T15:16:07Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-06T15:16:57Z pjb: ebrasca: The Community Lisp = TCL ;-) 2020-03-06T15:17:42Z pjb: White_Flame: I have a library named listerine. 2020-03-06T15:19:32Z pjb: (it mixes Java and Lisp, so the name is justified ;-) 2020-03-06T15:21:05Z montxero: lol 2020-03-06T15:21:07Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-06T15:24:19Z montxero: I am looking for an application written in common lisp that I can contribute to. I am not a programming rock star or anything like it. I don't trust myself with macros, (although I have written programs which generate programs in sagemath+python). Any advice for a noob? 2020-03-06T15:25:05Z montxero: On the sagemath+python programs, I wish I could do those in commonlisp but alas time is 2020-03-06T15:25:18Z montxero: time is a cruel b***h 2020-03-06T15:25:36Z Xach: montxero: i have a program that scrapes github for common lisp repos. i wrote it a long time ago and it screws up on unicode characters. do you have any interest in fixing it so it works properly and uses utf-8? 2020-03-06T15:25:44Z beach: montxero: Do you want an existing application, or something new. For new things, I recommend you look at metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html 2020-03-06T15:27:41Z montxero: Xach, I would love to take a look! I might be a bit slow at first, because of current commitments, but I will definately take a look at it! 2020-03-06T15:27:43Z dale joined #lisp 2020-03-06T15:27:57Z Xach: https://github.com/xach/ghprojects is it 2020-03-06T15:28:24Z montxero: beach: I'll glance at the site, but Xach has given me someting concrete, so I'll run with his now 2020-03-06T15:28:27Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-06T15:28:35Z beach: Sure. 2020-03-06T15:28:38Z montxero: beach: thanks 2020-03-06T15:28:55Z montxero: Xach: I'm all over it now 2020-03-06T15:29:16Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-06T15:29:41Z montxero: It was written hastily and without didactic 2020-03-06T15:29:41Z montxero: value in mind. 2020-03-06T15:29:41Z montxero: Story of my life 2020-03-06T15:29:52Z ebrasca: montxero: I recomend you to contribute to Mezzano OS ( https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano ) 2020-03-06T15:30:17Z Xach: https://twitter.com/NewLispRepos/status/1235886355911237633 is an example of the gross output of ghprojects 2020-03-06T15:30:35Z montxero: ebrasca: I am a noob, I don't think I can do any os type hacking 2020-03-06T15:34:35Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-06T15:34:44Z Xach: montxero: i don't think it's too bad, it's mostly just reading stuff and writing stuff. 2020-03-06T15:35:25Z gabc: montxero: I had some fun hacking on lem :) 2020-03-06T15:35:55Z montxero: Xach: The repo looks small enough for me to grok, I will be happy to start with it 2020-03-06T15:37:06Z montxero: gabc: Great! I've heard of it. I don't think I'll be much use there for now. 2020-03-06T15:38:25Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-06T15:39:15Z montxero: Now I have 3 things to do... One of them is working on utf-8 handling in ghprojects. Anymore and something must give. 2020-03-06T15:39:38Z montxero: Say, does anyone here have any idea on Positive observers? 2020-03-06T15:39:51Z gabc: You'll see what you can do, don't pressure yourself too much either :) 2020-03-06T15:40:10Z Xach: montxero: what is Positive observers? 2020-03-06T15:41:26Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-06T15:41:58Z montxero: Observers designed for positive systems. It is a niche field in control theory. 2020-03-06T15:42:56Z montxero: Wait a sec, I'll explain 2020-03-06T15:43:25Z montxero: A positive system is a dynamical system with the distinct property that its state 2020-03-06T15:43:25Z montxero: variables are always nonnegative. 2020-03-06T15:43:41Z montxero: A simple example of a positive system is the human endocrine system. At every 2020-03-06T15:43:41Z montxero: point in time, the quantity of any given hormone in a person is always nonnegative. 2020-03-06T15:43:41Z montxero: Indeed it is absurd to consider the possibility of a negative quantity of insulin in 2020-03-06T15:43:41Z montxero: the body. 2020-03-06T15:44:38Z White_Flame: I wouldn't think that data observers in such a system would necessarily care about the values being constrained to being positive. The mechanics of observation should be exactly the same 2020-03-06T15:45:02Z ebrasca: I think you can make sence of negative quantity. 2020-03-06T15:45:39Z montxero: White_Flame: Actually, it matters a lot 2020-03-06T15:46:05Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T15:46:11Z montxero: A quick intro to observers can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_observer 2020-03-06T15:47:02Z White_Flame: ok, this is derived state 2020-03-06T15:47:03Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-06T15:47:12Z montxero: One of the uses of an observer is to estimate the unavailable states for the purpose of designing a controller. 2020-03-06T15:47:29Z montxero: For a positive systems, the control inputs are always nonnegative. 2020-03-06T15:47:43Z gko_ joined #lisp 2020-03-06T15:47:43Z White_Flame: I wouldn't necessarily use the term "observer" on its own in general programming 2020-03-06T15:47:50Z White_Flame: if this is the meaning 2020-03-06T15:48:08Z White_Flame: "state observer" already parses as a visitor-style direct reading construct 2020-03-06T15:48:23Z montxero: If the observer generates a negative estimate, the controller will give a wrong (possibly catastrophic) input to the system 2020-03-06T15:48:40Z White_Flame: yeah, estimator or extrapolator would be good words 2020-03-06T15:48:41Z montxero: Yes, sorry... I meant observer in control theory 2020-03-06T15:48:45Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-06T15:49:01Z Bike: as opposed to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_pattern, which is what i think of when i hear "observer" in programming 2020-03-06T15:49:02Z montxero: I had to try... 2020-03-06T15:49:05Z Bike: control theory is cooler than this, though 2020-03-06T15:49:29Z montxero: Bike: yeah, not that kind of observer 2020-03-06T15:49:36Z Bike: unfortunately i'm not doing a lot of control theory at my day job 2020-03-06T15:50:33Z Bike: i also don't immediately understand what makes positive systems particularly special, since if you estimate a kidney has a liter of cortisone in it that will probably also cause some catastrophic weirdness 2020-03-06T15:51:12Z White_Flame: or if the expectation is -0.00001 is it really catastrophic? 2020-03-06T15:51:22Z White_Flame: s/expectation/estimation/ 2020-03-06T15:52:28Z montxero: Bike: When we know a system is positive, we can make certain acertaions about it. E.g, it's state's will never be negative. A lot of biological, chemical, engineering, economic systems have this property 2020-03-06T15:53:05Z montxero: Some key principles and theorems from control theory, do not apply to positive systems 2020-03-06T15:53:09Z Bike: Sure, but you can also assume there's not a liter of anything in something the size of a human kidney. 2020-03-06T15:53:12Z montxero: they just break down 2020-03-06T15:53:26Z Bike: Like, why positive specifically? Why not just specify a range or something? 2020-03-06T15:53:36Z montxero: Things like the separation principle do not hold 2020-03-06T15:54:22Z montxero: Bike: because we are dealing with a broad class of systems.. we want general solutions that can be applied to a wide class of systems 2020-03-06T15:55:44Z montxero: you do not want to create an automatic flight control system that will work on only boeings, you make the theories and methodologies that applies to flight systems which fit certain criteria 2020-03-06T15:55:47Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-06T15:56:01Z montxero: then boeing can specialise it for their planes as can everyone else 2020-03-06T15:56:29Z Bike: i don't get why "can't be less than zero" is more important than "can't be less than this particular number", but it's not my field i guess 2020-03-06T15:57:11Z montxero: Because, nonnegative, has some deep deep mathemaical implications 2020-03-06T15:57:45Z montxero: to make a simple example with linear systems 2020-03-06T15:58:01Z montxero: Linear systems defined on R^n are just linear 2020-03-06T15:58:08Z _death: you can always offset, can you not? 2020-03-06T15:58:23Z montxero: but if we restrict the systems to be nonnegative, we define the system on a cone 2020-03-06T15:58:43Z montxero: once we bring in that cone... things start to get a bit tricky 2020-03-06T15:59:10Z montxero: _death: if we did, our treatment will not be complet, nor will it be correct 2020-03-06T15:59:38Z montxero: that is a programmers approach... no offence, it will not work in control theory 2020-03-06T15:59:50Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-06T15:59:55Z flazh quit (Quit: flazh) 2020-03-06T16:00:04Z _death: montxero: I mean with Bike's remark in mind.. 2020-03-06T16:00:09Z gmeister quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4) 2020-03-06T16:00:57Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:02:25Z edgar-rft: let's all be positively depressed 2020-03-06T16:02:27Z montxero: Positive specifically, because that is how thoes phenomena present... processes involving chemical reactions, population, etc 2020-03-06T16:02:42Z swills quit (Quit: swills) 2020-03-06T16:02:43Z montxero: lol edgar-rft nay... we must stay positive 2020-03-06T16:03:25Z _death: I'm not sure what the question is, though.. you asked if anyone has an idea about something, which is not a technical question (and not related to Lisp...) 2020-03-06T16:03:32Z jackdaniel: I'm wondering, where does it lead to 2020-03-06T16:03:37Z jackdaniel: basically what _death said 2020-03-06T16:05:33Z montxero: jackdaniel: I asked on the off chance someone here has some experience on the subject. No offence meant, it wold've been nice 2020-03-06T16:07:11Z bitmapper quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-06T16:07:40Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:07:54Z montxero: On why an offset is not good enough, it is arbitrary. For something like the amount of glucose present in a persons blood, setting some arbitrary upper and lower limit may exclude some viable (if improbable values)... 2020-03-06T16:09:28Z montxero: Also, if an observer for a positive system ever generates a nonnegative estimate, then such ``observer" is not an observer for the system in question period. 2020-03-06T16:09:38Z xlei quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-06T16:09:39Z _death: I think you misunderstand.. for example you can use the Kelvin scale for a temperature to get nonnegative values, or you can offset in a Celsius scale.. 2020-03-06T16:10:21Z jackdaniel: either way, this seems to be offtopic on this channel 2020-03-06T16:10:21Z ebrasca: What about 0 < x <=100 % of your body? 2020-03-06T16:10:59Z jackdaniel: there is a designated channel for all offtopic discussions so let's focus on common lisp instead 2020-03-06T16:11:06Z montxero: _death: We can't play the same trick with hormones or chemical concentrations. It must be airtight and analytical 2020-03-06T16:11:57Z montxero: jackdaniel: fair enough... This ends my positive observer and control theory talk 2020-03-06T16:14:06Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:14:08Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:15:00Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T16:16:15Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:18:11Z smazga joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:18:22Z swills joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:20:15Z montaropdf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-03-06T16:24:02Z montxero quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-06T16:25:21Z makomo joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:26:09Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:29:12Z shka_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-06T16:29:22Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:32:41Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-06T16:43:28Z whiteline_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T16:44:02Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:44:09Z whiteline_ joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:44:16Z thodg: montxero: have a look at rails on lisp 2020-03-06T16:44:54Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-06T16:45:23Z thodg: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/etd5q8/railsonlisp_github/ 2020-03-06T16:45:44Z thodg: no home page or readme yet but it waits for developers 2020-03-06T16:45:52Z rpg: wasn't there also a "lisp on lines" reimplementation? 2020-03-06T16:46:10Z thodg: lol is dead in 2020 2020-03-06T16:46:58Z rpg: OK 2020-03-06T16:47:50Z whiteline__ joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:48:17Z thodg: a sample RoL project : https://github.com/LowH/mentats 2020-03-06T16:48:27Z whiteline_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-06T16:48:36Z Necktwi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-06T16:52:01Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-06T16:53:47Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:54:10Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:55:20Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-06T16:56:57Z ebrasca: What is RoL? 2020-03-06T16:59:00Z ebrasca: Rail... 2020-03-06T16:59:40Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-06T17:03:04Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-06T17:04:32Z thodg: https://github.com/RailsOnLisp 2020-03-06T17:05:30Z ebrasca: Why RoL? 2020-03-06T17:06:05Z thodg: better than lor and its hard to put lisp on rails actually 2020-03-06T17:06:06Z ArthurStrong joined #lisp 2020-03-06T17:06:29Z thodg: lisp is not a locomotive nor a wagon it seems 2020-03-06T17:06:54Z thodg: but it's much faster than ruby for sure 2020-03-06T17:07:00Z thodg: even load times 2020-03-06T17:07:18Z thodg: and my whole db fits in memory 2020-03-06T17:07:26Z thodg: very fast web development 2020-03-06T17:08:29Z thodg: i recently ported ruby objects to common lisp 2020-03-06T17:08:44Z thodg: i wonder if activerecord and such should be ported using ruby-objects 2020-03-06T17:09:43Z thodg: i have (class < super (private) (def my-method (args) ...)) syntax 2020-03-06T17:11:32Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-06T17:15:43Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T17:16:08Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-06T17:17:00Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-06T17:18:45Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-06T17:22:01Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-06T17:28:28Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-06T17:28:46Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-06T17:29:22Z pjb: _death: ok, but assume a body is at temperature t0 K. Assume you give it heat so that its temperature is now t1 K. Now, if the heat you gave it was Δt/C such as Δt+t0=t1 and Δt>t1 (all in K). Couldn't you say that its initial temperature t0 was negative? 2020-03-06T17:29:56Z pjb: _death: it's like negative resistors. It's not possible in theory, but in practice, you can build electronic circuits that behave as if they were negative resistors. 2020-03-06T17:30:07Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-03-06T17:30:11Z froggey joined #lisp 2020-03-06T17:30:41Z pjb: (of course, that body, and those electronic circuits, are not purely passive, to demonstrate those virtual negative grandeurs). 2020-03-06T17:31:03Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2020-03-06T17:31:17Z pjb: But negative energy is also a thing. Dark matter, dark energy, anti-particules, etc… 2020-03-06T17:31:24Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-06T17:31:27Z Bike: i don't understand how you skipped both the part of the conversation leading to what death said, and the part afterward where it was decided to stop talking about it since it's off topic 2020-03-06T17:32:48Z pjb: Bike: I disagree it's off topic. It's a valid programming question. For example, related to array indexing, 0-based in lisp. 2020-03-06T17:33:58Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-06T17:35:02Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-06T17:36:07Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-06T17:38:23Z Jesin joined #lisp 2020-03-06T17:56:30Z xlei joined #lisp 2020-03-06T17:57:11Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-06T17:59:12Z aeth: With a temperature type, you have a (actually several) system that gets you an objective 0 that you can't go below. Counting will also give you this, e.g. 0 marbles. Any arbitrary offset won't. This is absolutely a CL question of restricting the CL type imo. 2020-03-06T17:59:35Z aeth: It just got sidetracked a ton. 2020-03-06T18:00:31Z creat quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2020-03-06T18:00:51Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.2)) 2020-03-06T18:01:20Z pjb: aeth: again, with resistance it's the same. Negative resistance is a physical impossibility (with passive components). 2020-03-06T18:01:54Z pjb: that doesn't prevent us to design active circuits that demonstrate negative resistance. You can also design active bodies that will demonstrate negative absolute temperature. 2020-03-06T18:03:10Z aeth: pjb: That's exactly the opposite of the issue, which is the advantages of staying nonnegative in programming afaik. 2020-03-06T18:04:22Z aeth: All that matters is that there is an objective 0 in some scale that cannot be gone below. Temperature has at least 2-3 of those scales, even though of course you can make your own or use F/C 2020-03-06T18:04:40Z pjb: which are none, basically, when you consider continuous (linear) systems. 2020-03-06T18:07:03Z pjb: Take universal times. It's specified so that dates before 1900/01/01 00:00:00 GMT are not valid. But already, note that implementations allow negative universal times, to support 1900/01/01 00:00:00 GMT-12 to GMT-1. And note that the Gregorian calendar, while not universally adopted, was still already available in some places before that date, so negative universal time should have been perfectly valid, at least back to the 150 2020-03-06T18:07:39Z pjb: Ie. my argument is that disallowing negative values, most of the time, is just one more falacy believed by (bad) programmers. 2020-03-06T18:08:17Z aeth: This isn't using R (imagine that's fancy R), this is using some other number system, which CL can do e.g. (integer 0 *) and I think a different syntax for floats 2020-03-06T18:08:38Z aeth: Maybe not always efficiently because of all of the checks inserted... 2020-03-06T18:10:22Z aeth: Disallowing negative values is just the most used subset of CL's numeric type features other than getting a fixed integer size for algorithmic or interperability purposes. 2020-03-06T18:11:37Z aeth: Sure, you could do (integer 4 37) but that's less useful and less optimized so if you can change your scale to be (integer 0 64) you will produce better code (in optimizing implementations like SBCL) 2020-03-06T18:11:44Z pjb: take for example, sqrt. You could say (assert (typep (sqrt x) '(real 0))) 2020-03-06T18:11:59Z creat joined #lisp 2020-03-06T18:12:51Z pjb: You'd be wrong. (sqrt -1), (sqrt #c(1 1)), etc. 2020-03-06T18:13:23Z aeth: Nonnegative scale lets the compiler at least potentially infer certain things without having to continually check. (* x y) remains nonnegative. 2020-03-06T18:13:24Z pjb: or simplier (assert (typep (square x) '(real 0))) (square #c(0 1)) #| --> -1 |# 2020-03-06T18:13:43Z pjb: falacies. 2020-03-06T18:14:07Z semz: that has more to do with expanding the definition of a function to other domains than fallacies though 2020-03-06T18:14:44Z pjb: semz: yes, basic falacy. 2020-03-06T18:14:55Z aeth: pjb: I'm 90% sure the main reason you want nonnegative is so (* x y), (+ x y), (/ x y), etc. stay in the type. Only (- x y) and a few others need type checking then 2020-03-06T18:15:04Z pjb: google for "Falsehoods programmers believe"… 2020-03-06T18:15:26Z aeth: And it's a good question if SbCL is smart enough to infer nonnegative float/etc. arithmetic 2020-03-06T18:16:04Z pjb: semz: you believe a name is [A-Z][a-z]+ and you're wrong. The domain of the names is way more than that. Falacy! 2020-03-06T18:16:14Z semz: I'm not talking about names, I'm talking about square roots. 2020-03-06T18:16:31Z pjb: aeth: you believe a domain is [0..n[ and you're wrong. The domain is way more than that. Falacy! 2020-03-06T18:16:42Z pjb: semz: I'm talking about everything. 2020-03-06T18:16:48Z aeth: pjb: If we restrict our type to nonnegative then even (sqrt x) stays in our type! 2020-03-06T18:16:53Z aeth: Assuming float 2020-03-06T18:17:16Z pjb: aeth: yes, and then you write brittle software that don't apply to most of your customers. 2020-03-06T18:18:28Z aeth: Storing the temperature in K so SBCL can potentially always keep the value as valid without type checks except when subtraction is used is brittle software? It's actually a brilliant efficiency hack assuming the final conversion cost is cheaper! 2020-03-06T18:19:38Z semz: Writing code that handles complex square roots (or more precisely, the *principal* square roots) when complex inputs make absolutely no sense in context isn't more robust, it's idiotic. 2020-03-06T18:20:08Z semz: Checking that the input type is appropriate, yeah sure. 2020-03-06T18:20:08Z aeth: Of course, temperature is a bit of a bad example because you're only really going to be multiplying when converting afaik. 2020-03-06T18:20:35Z semz: But not the output wth 2020-03-06T18:20:36Z pjb: semz: until you take the module and use it in an Ariane 5… 2020-03-06T18:20:40Z pjb: then kaboom! 2020-03-06T18:21:07Z xlei quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-06T18:21:24Z aeth: pjb: The point was using unit systems that are nonnegative when the domain permits the assumption, as in, in at least some units, you cannot go below 0, which temperature does have 2020-03-06T18:21:40Z pjb: have not. 2020-03-06T18:21:53Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T18:22:05Z aeth: This requires domains that have an absolute zero, which exist 2020-03-06T18:22:14Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-06T18:23:19Z pjb: You cannot assume any body is passive when the universe has quantum entanglement. 2020-03-06T18:23:28Z pjb: Therefore the absolute 0 is a falacy. 2020-03-06T18:23:41Z pjb: Because it assumes purely passive bodies. 2020-03-06T18:23:48Z aeth: If I say (integer 0 *) for customer-count, I am making software more reliable because I shouldn't have any negative customers. Sure, I can shift the scale so I do, but... why??? There is a natural 0. 2020-03-06T18:23:57Z xlei joined #lisp 2020-03-06T18:24:15Z pjb: I just demonstrated that there is no natural absolute 0. 2020-03-06T18:25:20Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-06T18:25:30Z aeth: If it is asymptotic then it doesn't really matter for our purposes. As long as you can't go below it. You have natural absolute zeros all of the time, when counting. Bees in my yard, for example. 2020-03-06T18:25:41Z semz: Ariane 5 is not an example of this, the speed readings made sense in context (as, well, speed). 2020-03-06T18:27:44Z aeth: Anyway, "Can you restrict yourself to nonnegative usefully?" in this channel is "Yes." Not "Actually, there's always negatives." which is incorrect in counting problems. 2020-03-06T18:28:33Z aeth: And, sure, bees or whatever are integers, but molecules are still nonnegative and purely a counting problem, but are best stored as floats. 2020-03-06T18:30:16Z pjb: typed on a computer engineered with the notion that positive electricity flows from + to -, when actually negative electrons move from - to +, but in PNP transistors, it's actually holes that "move", etc… 2020-03-06T18:30:26Z aeth: It looks like for specific float types, you need to use a compound type, so e.g. (typep 42.0f0 '(and single-float (float 0 *))) while for integers you can just use (typep 42 '(integer 0 *)) although of course for integers you might want to (arbitrarily) upper bound it too, for efficiency. 2020-03-06T18:35:59Z aeth: And I've been playing around with variations of (defun foo (x y) (declare (type (and single-float (float 0 *)) x y)) (the (and single-float (float 0 *)) (* x y))) ; including the sqrt variation on just x 2020-03-06T18:37:16Z aeth: It looks like my version of SBCL will, as expected, not typecheck via the THE on most of those, but will typecheck on subtraction, as expected. It looks like it does typecheck, at least on my old version, for (expt x y) though. 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2020-03-06T21:17:22Z samebchase-2 joined #lisp 2020-03-06T21:17:26Z Bike: yeah. 2020-03-06T21:17:31Z Bike: it was removed from quicklisp, right? 2020-03-06T21:17:47Z Bike: (because it does not load) 2020-03-06T21:17:59Z dtman34_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-06T21:18:01Z Xach: right 2020-03-06T21:18:03Z samebchase- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-06T21:18:38Z Bike: the reason it doesn't load is that it refers to an enum that was removed after llvm 3.4, and while there's something to check the version it doesn't treat versions past 3 correctly 2020-03-06T21:18:52Z Bike: kind of a dumb reason, but that's how these things go i guess. it works for me with llvm9 2020-03-06T21:18:52Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-06T21:20:10Z Xach: congratulations!! you are new maintainer!! 2020-03-06T21:20:21Z Bike: oh shit 2020-03-06T21:21:20Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-06T21:22:12Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-06T21:23:45Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-06T21:25:14Z Bike: probably the JIT stuff doesn't work, though. 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I see it's still BETA but for moderate traffic?? 2020-03-07T00:38:01Z stereosphere joined #lisp 2020-03-07T00:40:22Z z147 quit (Quit: z147) 2020-03-07T00:40:49Z stereosphere quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-07T00:41:32Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T00:44:27Z zulu_inuoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-07T00:47:15Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-07T00:59:49Z dtman34_ joined #lisp 2020-03-07T01:01:31Z dtman34_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T01:03:59Z no-defun-allowed: For some function call that has a compiler macro, will that compiler macro ever be invoked more than once? 2020-03-07T01:13:13Z efm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-07T01:15:07Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe an example would help: I have a protocol for a database, and say it has two methods MAP-FOO-NAMES and GET-FOO. Each place (map-foo-names function database) is called, I want to rewrite it to (map-foo-names/named function database '#:symbol-that-designates-this-place); and I have a simple compiler macro that facilitates that rewrite. 2020-03-07T01:16:13Z no-defun-allowed: Will MAP-FOO-NAMES/NAMED be called with the same symbol each time it is called from that invocation? 2020-03-07T01:16:34Z Bike: there's no guarantee that a compiler macro is called at most once. 2020-03-07T01:17:10Z no-defun-allowed: Bummer. 2020-03-07T01:19:31Z Bike: there's also no guarantee that they'll be called at all, so i'm not sure it's good for what you're doing anyway. 2020-03-07T01:20:47Z no-defun-allowed: True. 2020-03-07T01:22:39Z Bike: you could write it as a macro instead, and then it'll be called at least once but maybe more than once. 2020-03-07T01:23:36Z no-defun-allowed: Say I had a silly query like (map-foo-names (lambda (name) (print (get-foo name database))) database); an SQL database probably would not appreciate being asked to retrieve foo #1, foo #2, etc. 2020-03-07T01:24:05Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-07T01:25:22Z no-defun-allowed: I could add another operator to map foos instead of foo-names, but this is a pretty small protocol compared to the one I am working with; so it might not be a good idea to give each query a generic function. Another legitimate query might not get any foos either. 2020-03-07T01:25:31Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-03-07T01:25:40Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T01:26:14Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-03-07T01:27:49Z no-defun-allowed: It also would be unfortunate to make non-SQL databases implement half of SQL. My compromise is to tag each invocation of MAP-FOO-NAMES and count how many foos are retrieved and how many names were provided, allowing the database to decide if it should prefetch the foos or not. 2020-03-07T01:33:06Z pjb: or at least once. 2020-03-07T01:34:09Z Bike: i don't know the second thing about sql, sorry. 2020-03-07T01:34:54Z ArthurStrong joined #lisp 2020-03-07T01:35:27Z dtman34 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T01:35:39Z no-defun-allowed: My understanding is they like big "batch" queries like SELECT NAME, FOO IN FOOS instead of SELECT NAME IN FOOS then repeatedly SELECT FOO IN FOOS WHERE NAME = 'a name' 2020-03-07T01:37:21Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-07T01:38:17Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T01:45:45Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T01:50:50Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T01:53:32Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T01:56:03Z White_Flame: no-defun-allowed: look up "query planners" 2020-03-07T01:56:30Z White_Flame: that's the name for the sql search optimization stuff 2020-03-07T01:56:36Z White_Flame: which the DB does internally 2020-03-07T01:57:28Z no-defun-allowed: Are you suggesting the database can guess what it has to prefetch? 2020-03-07T01:57:48Z White_Flame: it looks at the whole query and tries to map out what the fastest way to traverse it will be 2020-03-07T01:58:01Z White_Flame: with like many decades of research into the field 2020-03-07T01:58:38Z no-defun-allowed: Right, but if my protocol generates multiple queries, will it still be of any use? 2020-03-07T01:59:03Z White_Flame: if you talk to a database, you want to put as much into a single query as possible, so it can cross-link and filter and make use of internal indexes in the DB 2020-03-07T01:59:22Z White_Flame: at least, if you want better performance 2020-03-07T01:59:47Z no-defun-allowed: That's what I hope to do with gathering statistics on what is retrieved per map-foo-names use. 2020-03-07T01:59:57Z White_Flame: I don't quite have the context of what you're doing; if you want that sort of smarts in your own data traversall, then looking at what query planners do is what you want 2020-03-07T02:00:50Z ArthurStrong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-07T02:01:06Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. 2020-03-07T02:01:11Z swills quit (Quit: swills) 2020-03-07T02:02:25Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2020-03-07T02:02:45Z ArthurStrong joined #lisp 2020-03-07T02:04:51Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-07T02:10:07Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-07T02:10:40Z ArthurStrong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T02:11:15Z ArthurStrong joined #lisp 2020-03-07T02:13:21Z dtman34 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T02:13:41Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T02:18:25Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T02:18:56Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-07T02:20:25Z efm quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-03-07T02:23:03Z 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2020-03-07T04:33:34Z nitrix: For the interested, SpaceX is launching CRS-20 in the next few 15 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MkcWK2PnsU 2020-03-07T04:36:14Z no-defun-allowed: not Lisp don't care 2020-03-07T04:36:23Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-07T04:36:55Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T04:38:31Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-07T04:40:36Z KDr21 quit (Excess Flood) 2020-03-07T04:42:08Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-03-07T04:42:14Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T04:42:32Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-07T04:44:00Z theruran joined #lisp 2020-03-07T04:45:50Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-07T04:46:34Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-03-07T04:47:04Z KDr21 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T04:47:14Z fookara quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T04:48:16Z devponies[m]2 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T04:48:38Z devponies[m]2 left #lisp 2020-03-07T04:52:01Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-07T05:00:05Z wxie1 joined #lisp 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To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2020-03-07T07:31:06Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-07T07:31:41Z wxie1 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T07:36:09Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-07T07:38:50Z slyrus__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-07T07:48:03Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-07T07:48:24Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T07:49:52Z splittist: Good morning 2020-03-07T07:50:13Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-07T07:50:13Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-03-07T07:53:22Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-07T08:01:57Z beach: Hello splittist. 2020-03-07T08:11:59Z ArthurStrong joined #lisp 2020-03-07T08:16:03Z ArthurStrong quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-07T08:20:11Z elderK joined #lisp 2020-03-07T08:26:35Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T08:26:41Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-07T08:27:23Z elderK: Hey all! Happy Saturday! 2020-03-07T08:27:36Z elderK: I am here, once again, to consult you for advice. 2020-03-07T08:27:45Z elderK: Particularly, naming of generic functions, the convention. 2020-03-07T08:28:05Z elderK: I've been using what I call the "Scheme" convention for accessors and the like. 2020-03-07T08:28:16Z elderK: type-thing. Say, activation-frame-size or location-offset 2020-03-07T08:28:33Z elderK: But for some types, this becomes unwieldy fast. 2020-03-07T08:28:40Z elderK: So, I was wondering how you guys get around this. 2020-03-07T08:28:57Z elderK: Do you use generics and just say the thing? Like, instead of location-offset, you just have a generic called index, and specialize it for a location? 2020-03-07T08:29:24Z elderK: Do you change convention depending on context? If so, when, and what questions do you ask, what constraints, help you decide when to apply which? 2020-03-07T08:31:17Z beach: elderK: I skip the type thing. Not only because it becomes unwieldy, but also because it becomes really weird with subclassing. Take CLIM, for instance. It looks very strange to say (SHEET-PARENT PANE). 2020-03-07T08:31:48Z beach: elderK: So I just skip the type prefix and use more packages instead. 2020-03-07T08:32:42Z elderK: beach: Thanks :) 2020-03-07T08:32:56Z wxie1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T08:33:00Z elderK: The next question comes to do with overloading, or the situation where say, you have a generic with a name that applies to many types, but in different ways. 2020-03-07T08:33:18Z elderK: I have seen the 'allow-other-keys' thing. I was wondering if and how that could be used to do this. 2020-03-07T08:33:47Z elderK: Say, one method expects two parameters, another expects one. But they are all the same generic. 2020-03-07T08:34:09Z beach: Such a situation is not recommended. 2020-03-07T08:34:36Z beach: If you have a name that appears to apply to different, unrelated, types, then those types should probably go in different packages. 2020-03-07T08:34:57Z elderK: So you'd disambiguate that case by using qualified names? 2020-03-07T08:35:07Z beach: Yes. 2020-03-07T08:35:33Z elderK: Which brings me to the next thing: Can each package define a generic with the same name? 2020-03-07T08:35:39Z beach: The correct term would be that I use "explicit package prefixes". 2020-03-07T08:36:16Z beach: Sure, the name of a generic function is either a symbol or (SETF symbol). 2020-03-07T08:36:25Z no-defun-allowed: I use your "Scheme convention" for classes that have subclasses that introduce few concepts that the superclasses don't. 2020-03-07T08:36:25Z beach: And symbols are specific to packages. 2020-03-07T08:37:15Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-07T08:38:52Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-07T08:39:22Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-03-07T08:49:19Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-07T08:54:18Z elderK: Thank you :) 2020-03-07T08:57:06Z elderK quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2020-03-07T08:57:35Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2020-03-07T09:04:55Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp 2020-03-07T09:06:36Z lottaquestions quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T09:11:21Z luckless quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-07T09:11:30Z luckless joined #lisp 2020-03-07T09:12:24Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-07T09:18:19Z dale quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep) 2020-03-07T09:25:44Z fookara quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T09:27:20Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T09:32:08Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2020-03-07T09:34:26Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-07T09:39:47Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-07T09:47:14Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-07T09:49:18Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T09:54:03Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-07T09:54:52Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-07T09:56:14Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T09:56:49Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-07T09:56:54Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:03:21Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-07T10:03:38Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:05:56Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:06:25Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-03-07T10:07:20Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:08:06Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:09:05Z fookara quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T10:09:41Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:11:26Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:12:27Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-07T10:14:04Z makomo joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:14:10Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:18:49Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-07T10:20:42Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:25:39Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:26:11Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-07T10:26:14Z xuxuru quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-07T10:30:01Z fookara quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T10:33:36Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:38:07Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-07T10:38:56Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:41:48Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T10:42:42Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:44:02Z lottaquestions_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-07T10:54:03Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-07T10:54:19Z emys joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:54:21Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-07T10:55:33Z phoe: minion: memo for elderK: there also exist package-local nicknames that aid one with defining functionalities in multiple packages. You can use names like A:OFFSET, F:OFFSET, S:OFFSET, even if the packages are named e.g. FROB.ACCESSIBILITY, FROB.FUNCTIONALITY, FROB.SECURITY - PLNs do the translation. 2020-03-07T10:55:33Z minion: Remembered. 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I'm wondering if there is a way (or preferably nice way) to get a :predicate option for defclass similar to defstruct? I'm somewhat new, so I'm not sure if this would be lurking in an existing option, or needs to be a superclass, or metaclass that must be brought in. 2020-03-07T15:38:04Z beach: I think you either have to define it "manually", or you need some MOP manipulation to define a new metaclass, etc. It is probably not worth it. 2020-03-07T15:38:40Z beach: Just do (defgeneric stuff-p (x) (:method (x) nil) (:method ((x stuff)) t)) 2020-03-07T15:39:19Z beach: ... or you can use TYPEP to test for it. 2020-03-07T15:43:17Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-07T15:44:12Z sgithens: beach: Thanks, I'm actually bringing an old project back up to speed that I've inherited, and it has and uses `XYZed?` predicate tests for all it's classes, but I can't quite tell where they are coming from, I think it may have pulled in quite older versions of CLOS and things. Mostly I'm looking at how to properly replicate this on modern CL 2020-03-07T15:44:46Z beach: I see, yes. 2020-03-07T15:45:45Z pjb: sgithens: https://termbin.com/zm81 2020-03-07T15:46:45Z beach: sgithens: It is a bit strange to have so many uses for such a predicate. 2020-03-07T15:47:05Z beach: sgithens: It would be more common to use generic dispatch than to test for the type explicitly. 2020-03-07T15:47:15Z pjb: sgithens: a lighter way would be to define the predicate separately. (defclass foo …) (define-type-predicate foop foo) 2020-03-07T15:47:48Z pjb: sgithens: with a simplier (defmacro define-type-predicate (name type) `(defun ,name (x) (typep x ',type))) 2020-03-07T15:48:22Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T15:52:52Z sgithens: pjb: Thanks much! I may start with the less intrusive define-type-predicate here, as there are probably less than 30 classes I need to do this for. I fear I'm still new enough to CL to be a little initimated at shadowing the defclass, but will take a look at it :) 2020-03-07T15:52:56Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-03-07T15:53:55Z beach: sgithens: Like I said, a better way would be to use more generic functions rather than explicit tests for the type. 2020-03-07T15:53:56Z caltelt joined #lisp 2020-03-07T15:56:08Z sgithens: beach: I'm guessing because it would handle more of the nuances for comparing class heirarchies and oddities with equality and whatnot? 2020-03-07T16:00:55Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T16:01:28Z beach: It is more a question of modularity. If you are using explicit tests in a function that has some action, then each class-specific action must be present in that function. So if you add some class you need to modify the function. 2020-03-07T16:01:30Z Necktwi_ joined #lisp 2020-03-07T16:01:32Z Necktwi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-07T16:02:15Z beach: If you use a generic function ACTION, and specialize it to different classes, the class-specific actions are physically separated, and you can put them in different modules. 2020-03-07T16:04:04Z beach: So instead of (defun action (x) (cond ((a-p x) (do-a x)) ((b-p x) (do-b x))...)) you get (defmethod action ((x a)) (do-a x)) (defmethod action ((x b)) (do-b x)) ... 2020-03-07T16:05:01Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-07T16:05:39Z rwcom joined #lisp 2020-03-07T16:05:56Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T16:10:18Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-07T16:10:36Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-07T16:10:49Z sgithens: thanks beach, that was a helpful to have unpacked 2020-03-07T16:11:26Z beach: Oh, good. 2020-03-07T16:16:38Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp 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2020-03-07T19:52:41Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-07T19:55:43Z Frobozz quit (Quit: quit) 2020-03-07T19:58:17Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2020-03-07T20:02:48Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T20:08:00Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-07T20:10:47Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-07T20:14:50Z gareppa joined #lisp 2020-03-07T20:18:24Z dale joined #lisp 2020-03-07T20:25:51Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-07T20:27:35Z vms14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T20:45:27Z Kabriel: I'm playing around with py4cl. Anyone familiar with this package? I would like to unpack a dictionary in a function call, but can't quite figure out how to do that. 2020-03-07T20:46:45Z Xach is not familiar, sorry 2020-03-07T20:47:26Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-07T20:50:01Z jmercouris: Kabriel: you are trying to do ** basically with some function that accepts kwargs? 2020-03-07T20:51:42Z Kabriel: yes 2020-03-07T20:51:54Z jmercouris: Kabriel: and does python-call work for you? 2020-03-07T20:52:14Z Kabriel: let me see; I was using chain 2020-03-07T20:52:19Z jmercouris: "python-call can be used to pass arguments to any python callable, such as a function in a module" 2020-03-07T20:52:27Z jmercouris: (py4cl:python-call "lambda a=0, b=1: a-b" :b 2 :a 1) 2020-03-07T20:52:59Z jmercouris: you see how you could unpack a dictionary into key-value pairs to make a call? 2020-03-07T20:53:03Z Kabriel: the issue is that the hash is "pythonized" as string and passed as a signle argument. 2020-03-07T20:53:12Z Kabriel: no 2020-03-07T20:53:18Z jmercouris: look at the call above 2020-03-07T20:53:21Z jmercouris: :b 2 :a 1 2020-03-07T20:53:25Z jmercouris: looks a lot like a plist does it not? 2020-03-07T20:53:42Z jmercouris: or is it alist? 2020-03-07T20:53:44Z jmercouris: I get them confused 2020-03-07T20:53:51Z MichaelRaskin: plist 2020-03-07T20:53:51Z jmercouris: anyways, you can convert your dictionary into that, and make the call 2020-03-07T20:53:59Z Kabriel: I am trying to use a python function that returns a dictionary and then pass that to a second pythong function 2020-03-07T20:54:04Z jmercouris: Yes, I get it 2020-03-07T20:54:09Z jmercouris: what I am telling you is that you may have to do some processing in Lisp 2020-03-07T20:54:15Z Kabriel: got it 2020-03-07T20:54:30Z jmercouris: deconstruct that dictionary into a plist and pass it where you would normally do kwargs things in Python 2020-03-07T20:54:45Z jmercouris: MichaelRaskin: thank you 2020-03-07T20:54:57Z MichaelRaskin: Well, you could probably write a "lambda …" string so that ** happens in Python 2020-03-07T20:55:06Z jmercouris: ah, yeah, that's another good idea 2020-03-07T20:55:20Z Kabriel: no, because then the dict gets passed as a string 2020-03-07T20:55:32Z jmercouris: OK, so then you will have to do the processing as I've suggested 2020-03-07T20:55:42Z Kabriel: in process 2020-03-07T20:55:44Z jmercouris: dictionary -> plist, and use python-call 2020-03-07T20:56:12Z MichaelRaskin: Does it get passed as string with python-call too? 2020-03-07T20:56:46Z Kabriel: there is a generic function pythonize that turns the hash table into a python dictionary 2020-03-07T20:56:53Z jmercouris: you know, you could just also write a lambda that contains both funcalls together in python 2020-03-07T20:57:13Z jmercouris: "lambda funcall2(funcall1)..." 2020-03-07T20:57:22Z Kabriel: I think this happens in both call and chain 2020-03-07T20:59:28Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T21:02:34Z MichaelRaskin: Composing in Python is probably also faster (every time you cross some kind of imperfectly transparent border, there is some overhead) 2020-03-07T21:03:33Z Kabriel: temporary situtaion to use python plotting until some matplotlib equivalent is done 2020-03-07T21:03:41Z Kabriel: (in cl) 2020-03-07T21:03:57Z mercourisj joined #lisp 2020-03-07T21:04:00Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T21:04:33Z mercourisj is now known as jmercouris 2020-03-07T21:04:58Z MichaelRaskin: Well, I mean just that as long as you do multiple things in Python, consider doing all of them as a single chunk 2020-03-07T21:05:05Z MichaelRaskin: Then later the chunk might get smaller 2020-03-07T21:05:08Z jmercouris: I would say that is good advice 2020-03-07T21:05:15Z jmercouris: you could even wrap the chunk in a flet or defun 2020-03-07T21:05:29Z jmercouris: you don't necessarily want to interleave blobs of python everywhere in your CL 2020-03-07T21:05:44Z jmercouris: it might get hard to reason about, and difficult to extend in the future 2020-03-07T21:06:11Z Kabriel: Definitely not. I'm trying to interface with just a set of plotting stuff. 2020-03-07T21:06:30Z jmercouris: then just keep your API very simple 2020-03-07T21:06:39Z jmercouris: only pass the data once to python and let it do the rest in one solid chunk 2020-03-07T21:06:48Z jmercouris: no need to use this py4cl line by line passing back and forth then 2020-03-07T21:06:59Z jmercouris: it will be harder to understand that way anyway as compared to just plain python 2020-03-07T21:07:16Z jmercouris: that's just what I would do, :-) 2020-03-07T21:12:49Z gareppa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-07T21:14:22Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-03-07T21:14:22Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2020-03-07T21:14:22Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-03-07T21:15:40Z luni joined #lisp 2020-03-07T21:28:01Z vms14 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T21:29:17Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-07T21:34:10Z rippa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-07T21:35:58Z vms14 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-07T21:48:32Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-07T21:49:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-07T21:52:57Z red-dot quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-07T21:53:21Z red-dot joined #lisp 2020-03-07T21:53:22Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-07T21:53:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-07T21:56:59Z Inoperable quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T21:57:45Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T22:03:49Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T22:08:50Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-07T22:10:36Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-07T22:12:48Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T22:13:08Z slyrus__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T22:13:48Z z147 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T22:14:36Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T22:20:32Z vms14 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T22:23:42Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T22:25:20Z KDr21 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-07T22:26:35Z vms14: windows users, do you know if sbcl unix sockets work on windows 10? 2020-03-07T22:26:44Z vms14: I see windows 10 has unix sockets support 2020-03-07T22:26:45Z luni left #lisp 2020-03-07T22:29:15Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T22:30:15Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-07T22:32:40Z vms14: meh, it's not the same api, so won't work 2020-03-07T22:34:28Z KDr21 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-07T22:34:59Z p_l: SBCL uses Winsocks, afaik, so no, it has only access to the crippled side of Windows networking 2020-03-07T22:35:07Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T22:37:58Z vms14: p_l: windows 10 stole the bsd sockets and "implemented" the unix sockets 2020-03-07T22:38:18Z vms14: but they're assholes and changed slightly the api 2020-03-07T22:38:39Z p_l: vms14: Berkeley got money to reimplement TOPS-20 TCP/IP implementation with contractual obligation to provide the source code to everyone 2020-03-07T22:38:39Z impulse quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-07T22:38:44Z p_l: nobody in the world stole BSD sockets 2020-03-07T22:38:59Z vms14: yeah, that's what the BSD license lets you do 2020-03-07T22:39:15Z vms14: but I tend to use "steal" where I mean "copy" 2020-03-07T22:39:18Z p_l: and Windows NT *native* network API isn't BSD sockets 2020-03-07T22:39:43Z p_l: Winsock just emulates them for applications based on BSD sockets API (which, btw, sucks - it's one of the worst around) 2020-03-07T22:40:12Z vms14: p_l then I'll have some kind of unix sockets with sbcl in windows? 2020-03-07T22:40:35Z p_l: vms14: my suggestion is to use OS-native APIs where possible. On Windows the norm is to use Named Pipes (not the same as unix FIFOs) 2020-03-07T22:41:01Z vms14: yes, I'll end using pipes instead for windows 2020-03-07T22:41:01Z p_l: wrap the system-specific transports in higher level API (it's not like it's hard to do, you have lisp on your side) 2020-03-07T22:41:22Z p_l: the implementation of Unix sockets is, afaik, mostly done for WSL1 2020-03-07T22:41:35Z p_l: WSL2 runs a stripped-down Linux kernel 2020-03-07T22:42:15Z vms14: I'm realizing since I'm using perl and sdl + unix sockets + sbcl and on the lisp side I won't use any external library, has to be quite portable 2020-03-07T22:42:19Z vms14: excepting the sockets part 2020-03-07T22:42:19Z phlim quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-07T22:43:31Z vms14: and since just discovered win 10 provides unix sockets, I was wondering if I'll really won't need any single change on the code 2020-03-07T22:43:39Z p_l: vms14: well, the necessary libs are part of the OS in WinNT case, and I'm pretty sure Perl has the libs for that as well 2020-03-07T22:43:48Z vms14: but it seems I'll have to use named pipes for win 2020-03-07T22:44:14Z vms14: perl supports that win sockets api, so on the perl side Idon't need to change nothing 2020-03-07T22:44:28Z vms14: but on the lisp side, it seems I will 2020-03-07T22:44:39Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-03-07T22:45:22Z vms14: anyway it won't be much work to change unix sockets for named pipes, since that would be the only change I'll need 2020-03-07T22:48:03Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-07T22:48:50Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-07T22:59:30Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-07T23:03:56Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-07T23:06:20Z z147_ joined #lisp 2020-03-07T23:07:02Z vms14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-07T23:07:59Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T23:08:43Z z147 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-07T23:22:17Z harshrc joined #lisp 2020-03-07T23:24:50Z KDr21 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-07T23:25:17Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-07T23:27:36Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2020-03-07T23:49:15Z z147_ quit (Quit: z147_) 2020-03-07T23:52:17Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-07T23:54:20Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T00:03:10Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T00:04:44Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T00:07:07Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-08T00:09:40Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T00:15:58Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-08T00:22:06Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T00:26:30Z geirt joined #lisp 2020-03-08T00:28:04Z peterhil` quit (Quit: Must not waste too much time here...) 2020-03-08T00:31:43Z margeas joined #lisp 2020-03-08T00:34:38Z geirt left #lisp 2020-03-08T00:34:51Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-08T00:39:34Z KDr21 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-08T00:41:49Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-08T00:45:42Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T00:46:06Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-08T00:46:21Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-08T00:46:43Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-03-08T00:47:17Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-03-08T00:49:32Z peterhil joined #lisp 2020-03-08T00:50:07Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-08T00:54:02Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-08T00:58:01Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-08T01:02:13Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-08T01:09:51Z ljavorsk_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-08T01:10:39Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-08T01:12:25Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T01:15:05Z elderK joined #lisp 2020-03-08T01:16:08Z elderK: Happy Sunday, everyone. 2020-03-08T01:16:09Z minion: elderK, memo from phoe: there also exist package-local nicknames that aid one with defining functionalities in multiple packages. You can use names like A:OFFSET, F:OFFSET, S:OFFSET, even if the packages are named e.g. FROB.ACCESSIBILITY, FROB.FUNCTIONALITY, FROB.SECURITY - PLNs do the translation. 2020-03-08T01:16:41Z elderK: phoe: Are package local nicknames widespread yet? 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I'll tell elderK when he/she/it next speaks. 2020-03-08T08:23:04Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-08T08:23:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-08T08:24:47Z TanKian quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-08T08:48:36Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-08T08:49:21Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2020-03-08T08:51:05Z Bourne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T08:52:03Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-08T09:01:29Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-03-08T09:02:00Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2020-03-08T09:07:08Z ebzzry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-08T09:08:21Z TanKian joined #lisp 2020-03-08T09:13:46Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T09:33:30Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-08T09:38:07Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-08T09:42:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T09:44:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-08T09:54:30Z srji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T09:56:00Z srji joined #lisp 2020-03-08T10:07:31Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2020-03-08T10:09:18Z drl quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2020-03-08T10:09:25Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T10:12:20Z TanKian quit (Quit: TanKian) 2020-03-08T10:12:50Z TanKian joined #lisp 2020-03-08T10:14:30Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T10:17:01Z TanKian_ joined #lisp 2020-03-08T10:17:49Z TanKian quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-08T10:17:49Z TanKian_ is now known as TanKian 2020-03-08T10:19:27Z jeosol quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-08T10:24:08Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-08T10:34:55Z TanKian quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-08T10:36:43Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-08T10:44:17Z lukego: Is there a stable imgui binding for Lisp? 2020-03-08T10:46:08Z TanKian joined #lisp 2020-03-08T10:47:51Z lukego: (Or something similar i.e. low-tech way to splash interactive graphics on the screen) 2020-03-08T10:51:33Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-08T10:51:50Z rj0d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-08T10:51:59Z Shinmera is once again depressed he can't recommend Alloy yet 2020-03-08T10:56:33Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-08T10:58:47Z rj0d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T11:00:33Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-08T11:01:33Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-08T11:01:58Z rj0d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T11:02:26Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T11:05:15Z TanKian quit (Quit: TanKian) 2020-03-08T11:06:01Z d4ryus: lukego: borodust wrote bindings for nuklear: https://github.com/borodust/bodge-ui you can catch him here or on #lispgames 2020-03-08T11:06:31Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-08T11:06:58Z rj0d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T11:07:41Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-08T11:11:10Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T11:11:34Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-08T11:11:59Z rj0d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T11:12:35Z pjb: lukego: imgui and stable? imgui.h Unicode: Changelog, comments, minimum CI integration. (#2541, #2538, #… 5 days ago 2020-03-08T11:12:51Z no-defun-allowed: Some implementations like SBCL and Clozure have synchronised hash tables, but some don't and need you to bring your own lock. Is there a wrapper library that has a clone of the CL hash table protocol, but ensures everything is synchronised? 2020-03-08T11:16:31Z rj0d joined #lisp 2020-03-08T11:18:46Z vap1 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T11:20:05Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-03-08T11:21:59Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T11:26:28Z TanKian joined #lisp 2020-03-08T11:26:35Z cods joined #lisp 2020-03-08T11:27:28Z cods quit (Changing host) 2020-03-08T11:27:28Z cods joined #lisp 2020-03-08T11:30:40Z TanKian_ joined #lisp 2020-03-08T11:32:23Z TanKian quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-08T11:32:23Z TanKian_ is now known as TanKian 2020-03-08T11:36:04Z _death: lukego: I've been working on imgui+ecl thing, but it's not public (yet?) .. https://adeht.org/dump/vids.html has some videos 2020-03-08T11:37:28Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-08T11:40:59Z lukego: borodust: Hey I'm trying to run bodge-nuklear examples but first thing that happens is "Unhandled memory fault at #x0" on the %glfw:create-window call in nuklear.example:run. any troubleshooting tip? 2020-03-08T11:45:33Z TanKian quit (Quit: TanKian) 2020-03-08T11:45:42Z lukego checks his opengl install 2020-03-08T11:55:39Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-08T11:55:50Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-03-08T11:56:49Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-08T11:57:02Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T12:03:31Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T12:03:43Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-03-08T12:05:00Z KDr21 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T12:08:23Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T12:10:18Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T12:12:57Z ebzzry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-08T12:14:51Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-08T12:18:53Z phoe: lukego: you might want to ask on #lispgames 2020-03-08T12:19:30Z lukego: phoe: Thanks. Looks like I'll run out of time for the moment. I'm fighting with nix to get all my stuff onto the latest and greatest in case it's some opengl issue that's been fixed. 2020-03-08T12:23:27Z lukego: oh hey it works! Just as I have to leave the keys. Cool. Just some opengl gremlins hopefully now pinned down by nix. 2020-03-08T12:29:44Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-08T12:33:45Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T12:34:11Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-08T12:36:51Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-08T12:37:20Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-08T12:41:19Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-08T12:51:35Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-08T12:56:25Z _paul0 left #lisp 2020-03-08T12:57:57Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-08T12:58:22Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-08T12:58:59Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-08T12:59:37Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T13:12:52Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-08T13:15:35Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-08T13:16:14Z seok joined #lisp 2020-03-08T13:16:31Z seok: how would I download m3u8 videos? 2020-03-08T13:16:42Z seok: anyone got an idea 2020-03-08T13:21:49Z borodust: hello lukego: do you use bodge-nuklear from main quicklisp dist or from bodge dist? 2020-03-08T13:23:43Z borodust: lukego: ah, nvm, looks like you figured it out; feel free to ping me anytime you have problems with bodge stuff 2020-03-08T13:24:51Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-08T13:24:52Z akoana left #lisp 2020-03-08T13:27:38Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T13:29:58Z phoe: seok: that doesn't really sound Lisp-specific 2020-03-08T13:30:25Z seok: yeah, it is a method of streaming videos on the web 2020-03-08T13:30:41Z seok: I'm not sure of its architecture tho 2020-03-08T13:33:13Z MichaelRaskin: It does not look like there is a suitable Common Lisp library, and details of wrapping youtube-dl are probably offtopic here 2020-03-08T13:33:17Z gabba joined #lisp 2020-03-08T13:33:32Z seok: does youtube use m3u8? 2020-03-08T13:34:11Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-08T13:34:15Z phoe: it isn't YouTube 2020-03-08T13:34:28Z phoe: YT uses much more complex formats for that; see youtube-dl for source code for that 2020-03-08T13:34:38Z seok: I'm trying to save lecture videos off my uni, VLC player seems to work somewhat but was wondering how I would do it programatically 2020-03-08T13:34:51Z phoe: if you wanted to do that in Lisp, you could possibly translate some other code that works with m3u8 playlists - I found https://github.com/denex/hls-downloader 2020-03-08T13:34:57Z phoe: that is, after a while of googling 2020-03-08T13:35:08Z gabba left #lisp 2020-03-08T13:35:31Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-08T13:35:40Z seok: Oh nice 2020-03-08T13:35:45Z seok: I wasn't able to find that 2020-03-08T13:35:48Z caltelt joined #lisp 2020-03-08T13:35:51Z trittweiler_ joined #lisp 2020-03-08T13:35:59Z seok: did you search for HLS? 2020-03-08T13:36:12Z seok: I'll try that one 2020-03-08T13:38:05Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T13:38:22Z phoe: I tried for "m3u8 download" 2020-03-08T13:38:26Z seok: what 2020-03-08T13:38:34Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-08T13:38:34Z seok: That's what i've been searching 2020-03-08T13:39:20Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-08T13:40:15Z caltelt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-08T13:43:01Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T13:45:46Z rj0d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T13:46:21Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-03-08T13:47:48Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-08T13:49:53Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2020-03-08T13:51:05Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-08T13:57:55Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-08T14:00:21Z caltelt joined #lisp 2020-03-08T14:01:49Z bitmapper quit 2020-03-08T14:07:46Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-03-08T14:11:17Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T14:15:39Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-08T14:17:17Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-08T14:20:46Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-08T14:23:30Z thodg joined #lisp 2020-03-08T14:27:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T14:29:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-08T14:31:23Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T14:32:26Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-08T14:35:41Z trittweiler_ left #lisp 2020-03-08T14:38:13Z rm34D joined #lisp 2020-03-08T14:40:03Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T14:42:34Z caltelt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T14:48:41Z jmercouris: would you say the length of files in a lisp program should be limited? 2020-03-08T14:48:47Z jmercouris: are smaller files preferred? 2020-03-08T14:49:00Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-08T14:49:13Z Shinmera: I prefer smaller files. 2020-03-08T14:49:29Z Shinmera: But other people clearly don't. 2020-03-08T14:50:12Z _death: my recent projects are one or a few big files each 2020-03-08T14:52:10Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T14:52:14Z jmercouris: I used to be a small file person, but I've been moving slowly to big files 2020-03-08T14:52:29Z jmercouris: when I can just jump to any defun I need, I think it is a bit easier to reason about than jumping between files 2020-03-08T14:56:21Z edgar-rft: jmercouris: yes, a file shold not be longer than a few million lines 2020-03-08T14:56:23Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-03-08T14:56:26Z jmercouris: 11 2020-03-08T14:57:56Z lucasb joined #lisp 2020-03-08T14:58:18Z edgar-rft: I think it's also no good idea to have files that are bigger than your harddisk 2020-03-08T14:58:29Z jmercouris: no, that's fine 2020-03-08T14:58:32Z jmercouris: you just stream them 2020-03-08T15:01:53Z edgar-rft: what's with files where the Lisp read-time is longer than a human lifespan? 2020-03-08T15:02:23Z jmercouris: Shinmera: how does deploy actually under the hood manage shared libraries 2020-03-08T15:02:37Z Shinmera: the source is there to read? 2020-03-08T15:02:41Z jmercouris: Shinmera: let's say I make an app bundle, and it figures out, OK, I need these dylibs, what does it do to the cffi load path or whatever? 2020-03-08T15:02:55Z jmercouris: Shinmera: The source is there to read 2020-03-08T15:03:30Z Shinmera: it just loads the libs with an explicit path 2020-03-08T15:03:43Z jmercouris: and when you move this program around your filesystem? 2020-03-08T15:03:47Z Shinmera: since it knows where they'll be relative to the directory. 2020-03-08T15:03:53Z Shinmera: *relative to the executable 2020-03-08T15:04:04Z jmercouris: that's what I'm saying, what about moving the executable around 2020-03-08T15:04:07Z jmercouris: suddenly the path is different 2020-03-08T15:04:15Z Shinmera: the paths are constructed relative to the executable, so 2020-03-08T15:04:20Z jmercouris: so, it breaks then 2020-03-08T15:04:22Z Shinmera: no? 2020-03-08T15:04:31Z jmercouris: the executable could be moved anywhere on disk 2020-03-08T15:04:40Z jmercouris: Oh, ok I see 2020-03-08T15:04:46Z Shinmera: well yeah if you move it away from the rest of the directory things break 2020-03-08T15:04:52Z jmercouris: you meant to say that the paths are in the app bundle still 2020-03-08T15:05:09Z Shinmera: I don't know what that means so I don't know if I meant to say that. 2020-03-08T15:05:19Z jmercouris: fair enough, but if what you said above is true, that is what you meant to say 2020-03-08T15:05:31Z jmercouris: in any case, I get it 2020-03-08T15:08:07Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-03-08T15:10:36Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2020-03-08T15:17:06Z lottaquestions quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T15:18:27Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2020-03-08T15:18:48Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2020-03-08T15:21:39Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-03-08T15:22:08Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2020-03-08T15:22:47Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-08T15:22:55Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-08T15:23:05Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-08T15:25:09Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-08T15:27:26Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-03-08T15:38:04Z devrtz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T15:38:26Z devrtz joined #lisp 2020-03-08T15:42:25Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T15:43:54Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-08T15:59:00Z ggole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T15:59:32Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-03-08T15:59:52Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-03-08T16:05:17Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T16:12:11Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T16:16:03Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-08T16:17:03Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-08T16:27:17Z JohnnyL joined #lisp 2020-03-08T16:28:53Z margeas joined #lisp 2020-03-08T16:29:26Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-08T16:32:45Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-08T16:33:00Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-08T16:33:30Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2020-03-08T16:34:19Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-03-08T16:35:21Z loli joined #lisp 2020-03-08T16:37:07Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T16:37:07Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T16:39:37Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-08T16:41:25Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-08T16:42:40Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T16:48:02Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-08T16:57:55Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-03-08T16:59:17Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-08T17:02:26Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T17:10:34Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-08T17:12:56Z JohnnyL quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-08T17:14:03Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-08T17:17:34Z markasoftware: Does common lisp have a mechanism for dynamically binding the function slot? Like `cl-letf` or `flet` in Emacs. 2020-03-08T17:18:24Z MichaelRaskin: flet or labels 2020-03-08T17:18:38Z beach: MichaelRaskin: That would be lexical. 2020-03-08T17:18:39Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-08T17:18:43Z beach: Not dynamic. 2020-03-08T17:19:03Z markasoftware: I know let can be both dynamic or lexical depending on "special", but I think flet is always lexical 2020-03-08T17:19:08Z MichaelRaskin: Oh, Emacs flet is dynamic? Oops, my bad 2020-03-08T17:22:26Z markasoftware: There's a function I use that I want people to be able to override if they don't like my default definition of it, and I don't want to add it as an optional argument to every other function that uses it. 2020-03-08T17:23:11Z MichaelRaskin: Well, you can funcall a special variable 2020-03-08T17:23:16Z markasoftware: yeah, that's my current plan 2020-03-08T17:24:16Z beach: Or, you can create yourself a macro that saves the old definition, installs a new one, executes some code, and then re-installs the old one. 2020-03-08T17:24:27Z beach: Don't forget the unwind-protect, though. 2020-03-08T17:27:13Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-08T17:27:15Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-08T17:33:39Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-08T17:34:06Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-03-08T17:37:04Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T17:41:27Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-03-08T17:42:22Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T17:43:46Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-08T17:44:04Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-08T17:44:47Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T17:54:30Z margeas joined #lisp 2020-03-08T17:57:26Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-08T17:57:27Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-03-08T17:58:19Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-08T17:59:43Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-08T18:00:01Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-08T18:00:24Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-03-08T18:00:24Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-08T18:03:57Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-08T18:07:03Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2020-03-08T18:08:31Z ljavorsk__ joined #lisp 2020-03-08T18:11:13Z ljavorsk_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-08T18:13:04Z ioa quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2020-03-08T18:13:10Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T18:13:16Z ioa joined #lisp 2020-03-08T18:17:38Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-08T18:32:11Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp 2020-03-08T18:36:52Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-08T18:41:40Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T18:42:44Z pjb: minion: memo for jmercouris: the size of source files and their arrangement doesn't matter: just write an emacs command to fetch and save toplevel forms automatically in any organization you like and forget it! Don't visit lisp file, visit lisp toplevel forms! 2020-03-08T18:42:44Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks. 2020-03-08T18:44:55Z seok quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T18:45:35Z vms14 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T18:46:12Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-03-08T18:49:43Z vms14: there is a way to use remove-if with a function that accepts two elements and pass one element that would be the same in all calls instead of wrapping it with a lambda? 2020-03-08T18:50:33Z vms14: example: (defun oh (x y) (= x y)) (remove-if #'oh some-list :extra-argument 1) 2020-03-08T18:51:15Z vms14: instead of (remove-if (lambda (x) (oh x 1)) some-list) 2020-03-08T18:53:41Z caltelt joined #lisp 2020-03-08T19:00:55Z ioa quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2020-03-08T19:01:22Z ioa joined #lisp 2020-03-08T19:01:50Z phlim joined #lisp 2020-03-08T19:02:08Z vms14: (defun get-subject (sentece) 2020-03-08T19:02:08Z vms14: (butlast (loop for word in sentece collect word until (is word verb)))) 2020-03-08T19:02:50Z vms14: how I should create the function "drop-subject" to get the predicate using get-subject as a filter? 2020-03-08T19:03:27Z vms14: by predicate I mean the predicate of a sentence, not a lisp predicate 2020-03-08T19:05:00Z vms14: oh, lol using lenght 2020-03-08T19:07:25Z vms14: (nthcdr (length (get-subject sentence)) sentence) 2020-03-08T19:08:53Z ljavorsk__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T19:15:44Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-08T19:18:26Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-08T19:20:57Z semz: I don't think there is. Why is a lambda not acceptable? 2020-03-08T19:21:36Z vms14: yeah, I've realized It's too lazy stuff for abstracting that 2020-03-08T19:21:57Z vms14: but wondered if there was a way, like a similar function that would do 2020-03-08T19:25:35Z bitmappe_ joined #lisp 2020-03-08T19:29:08Z zulu_inuoe_ joined #lisp 2020-03-08T19:29:55Z _death: lambda is fine.. there's also alexandria:curry/rcurry 2020-03-08T19:30:49Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-03-08T19:32:09Z seok joined #lisp 2020-03-08T19:32:35Z zulu_inuoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-08T19:32:42Z seok: I'm reading an article on early lisp, and there is a line about it being easier to write a new language than a library 2020-03-08T19:33:21Z seok: I don't really understand this, and I feel like I'm missing out on a huge feature of lisp, what can I read to really understand this concept? 2020-03-08T19:34:01Z seok: From my understanding it probably has something to do with what makes macros so great 2020-03-08T19:34:06Z seok: But I still don't get it 2020-03-08T19:34:12Z markasoftware: seok: i think early lispers vastly overestimated the utility of macros 2020-03-08T19:34:26Z markasoftware: that's why today's most popular dynamic languages don't have good ones 2020-03-08T19:34:43Z markasoftware: buuuut there are lots of situations where a mini-language is very useful 2020-03-08T19:34:57Z seok: So are macros not as good as lisp advocates say they are? 2020-03-08T19:35:23Z markasoftware: yo umight want to read some of SICP, structure and interpretation of computer programs. I believe they implement lots of mini-languages in there 2020-03-08T19:35:26Z seok: For me I really didn't get how macros were so significant other than saving a few lines of code trying to write a function 2020-03-08T19:35:58Z seok: Wow, 883 pages 2020-03-08T19:36:01Z seok: That's a read 2020-03-08T19:36:09Z markasoftware: lol yeah i haven't read much of it 2020-03-08T19:36:09Z seok: Thanks I'll check that out 2020-03-08T19:36:21Z markasoftware: it's considered one of the best books abotu programming in general 2020-03-08T19:36:58Z markasoftware: let's take an example: yo uwant to write a program that can simulate electric circuits 2020-03-08T19:37:24Z markasoftware: how do you want to specify the electric circuit to the program? Realistically, you'd probably import a schematic file from a CAD program or something, but let's try to make it more elegant than that 2020-03-08T19:38:54Z markasoftware: In Java or C or another static language, you'd do somethin glike this: 2020-03-08T19:38:54Z markasoftware: Resistor r1 = new Resistor(); 2020-03-08T19:38:54Z markasoftware: Diode d2 = new Diode(); 2020-03-08T19:38:54Z markasoftware: d2.connectAnodeTo(r1); 2020-03-08T19:39:00Z seok: Yup 2020-03-08T19:39:03Z markasoftware: etc etc, it's quite verbose 2020-03-08T19:40:06Z aeth: seok: Macro-driven APIs allow you to do a lot of things at compile time that otherwise would be done at runtime with the equivalent API, so it changes a lot of things. The macro call (foo ((a b c) (d e f))) is roughly equivalent to the function call (foo '((a b c) (d e f))) but with the latter, all of the fanciness you're doing in that macro has to be done at runtime. 2020-03-08T19:40:29Z aeth: So, essentially, you never have to let efficiency decisions due to language limitations drive your API design. 2020-03-08T19:40:33Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2020-03-08T19:40:40Z seok: Hm 2020-03-08T19:41:09Z markasoftware: With lisp you could design your own language to input the circuit schematic 2020-03-08T19:41:13Z seok: but even in static languages 2020-03-08T19:41:21Z seok: it's going to be more verbose 2020-03-08T19:41:26Z aeth: In practice, what that means is probably string generation for some target language, like HTML. But really there are a dozen or more such languages you might want to target (e.g. SQL). Instead of having string templates, you can have s-expression versions of that language, since it's going to (mostly) be done at compile time if properly designed. 2020-03-08T19:41:34Z seok: but if you don't want to evaluate the variables at runtime 2020-03-08T19:41:59Z seok: you can let those variables a b c d e f hold pseudo-pointers only, not the object 2020-03-08T19:42:11Z markasoftware: like 2020-03-08T19:42:11Z markasoftware: (resistor r1 5k-ohms) 2020-03-08T19:42:11Z markasoftware: (resistor r2 250-ohms) 2020-03-08T19:42:11Z markasoftware: (diode d1 :anode r1 :cathode r2) 2020-03-08T19:42:14Z seok: for instance you could have a hash/dictionary with the keys and objects 2020-03-08T19:42:21Z seok: and pass the keys only 2020-03-08T19:42:23Z aeth: e.g. (:html (:head ...) (:body (:p ...))) with no variable input can be transformed directly into a literal string of HTML, and with some variable input could be turned into a literal FORMAT string with one input without much of a performance loss. Etc. 2020-03-08T19:42:48Z aeth: Even if your Java program expresses HTML as objects or whatever, you're going to have a performance loss at the ToString() runtime call 2020-03-08T19:43:05Z markasoftware: You might want to take a look at parenscript for an example of what aeth is saying; it can transpile lisp code to javascript at compile-time 2020-03-08T19:43:38Z seok: Yes, I do use a lot of those web related libraries 2020-03-08T19:43:55Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-08T19:43:56Z seok: so are advantages of macros in the syntax and performance? 2020-03-08T19:44:28Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2020-03-08T19:44:34Z seok: From my understanding macros provide freedom in the syntax over other languages, but not functionality 2020-03-08T19:44:47Z aeth: In Common Lisp, you control exactly at which stage something executes, and exactly how it looks like. 2020-03-08T19:45:12Z aeth: In C++, you can control which stage something executes at, but not very easily, and not with essentially the same language as the runtime language with no modifications at all. 2020-03-08T19:45:28Z aeth: (And not controlling its appearance.) 2020-03-08T19:45:29Z aeth: And in most languages, you don't even have that freedom. 2020-03-08T19:45:47Z seok: Yeah 2020-03-08T19:46:12Z vms14: seok: the thing is symbols and lists are a very common and easy to use stuff in lisp 2020-03-08T19:46:16Z seok: Now I know that, 2020-03-08T19:46:18Z aeth: Now, it's not all DEFMACRO. There are a few other things at play like EVAL-WHEN, reader macros (sort of like C preprocessor macros), read-eval (i.e. #.(foo)) etc. that let you do that in combination 2020-03-08T19:46:22Z vms14: and languages have usually atoms, tokens and alike 2020-03-08T19:46:26Z seok: Is it wrong to not use such freedom when coding in lisp? 2020-03-08T19:47:00Z seok: IE, are you more productive in coding when you create the syntax for your goal? 2020-03-08T19:47:05Z vms14: I'm just doing some pseudocode language stuff to practice and found is very tied to lisp if you use simbols and the sentence is a list 2020-03-08T19:47:08Z vms14: https://termbin.com/88zo 2020-03-08T19:47:44Z vms14: lispers would kill me for having globals without earmuffs :D 2020-03-08T19:47:54Z seok: :D 2020-03-08T19:48:22Z Odin-: That's something that makes it easy for you to shoot yourself in your foot, but feel free to do so if you particularly want. 2020-03-08T19:48:33Z bitmappe_ quit 2020-03-08T19:48:51Z Odin-: Lisp is absolutely full of good ways to shoot yourself in the foot. 2020-03-08T19:48:54Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-08T19:48:56Z vms14: Odin-: yes I know, I tend to use earmuffs, but wanted "name" be a list of names 2020-03-08T19:49:04Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-08T19:49:05Z vms14: so (is word name) would work 2020-03-08T19:49:23Z vms14: (is word verb) and same for adjectives or alike 2020-03-08T19:49:36Z seok: interesting 2020-03-08T19:49:37Z vms14: and I don't have to change the function "is" for new types 2020-03-08T19:49:38Z aeth: seok: As far as functionality in macros, you can just call a third party interpreter/compiler or write ASM if your implementation exposes it (or, I guess, portably if you care to)... so any line of code can do literally anything at any time, assuming that you only have the context of that one line of code. It's a bit natural that other languages would give this up, since it makes things easier for tools. 2020-03-08T19:49:50Z vms14: (defun is (word what-is) (car (member word what-is))) 2020-03-08T19:49:53Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-08T19:50:45Z aeth: As long as you write a CL-reader-compatible parser algorithm, you can basically run any language within CL (that's more of a reader macro thing than a macro thing, though) 2020-03-08T19:51:26Z Odin-: seok: In theory, any programming language can provide any desired functionality. At least if the Church-Turing thesis is indeed true. 2020-03-08T19:51:36Z seok: Yes 2020-03-08T19:51:45Z Odin-: I wouldn't want to build a large system in Brainfuck, though. 2020-03-08T19:51:56Z aeth: The worst case scenario for regular macros is probably LOOP, which has a bunch of meaningful non-parenthesized clauses, which means that the editor won't indent it properly without special casing LOOP keywords (and even the Emacs+SLIME workaround for this doesn't do it perfectly for complicated if/thens IME) 2020-03-08T19:51:58Z vms14: Odin-: yes, but not most languages have a reader macro that let's you read the code as text input 2020-03-08T19:52:23Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T19:52:23Z Lord_of_Life_ quit (Excess Flood) 2020-03-08T19:52:29Z seok: So fundamentally, if Lisp is superior to other languages, it can only be superior in its syntax 2020-03-08T19:52:34Z vms14: also in my case I just need to wrap the sentence in parenthesis and it's a list 2020-03-08T19:52:40Z Odin-: vms14: My point is that eventually _all_ of the features of a programming languages can be termed "a syntactic convenience". 2020-03-08T19:52:54Z Odin-: -s 2020-03-08T19:53:03Z seok: Which means, when someone asks, "What's so good about Lisp?", The answers is - Syntax? 2020-03-08T19:53:11Z vms14: (read-from-string (format nil "(~a)") (read-line)) 2020-03-08T19:53:33Z Odin-: seok: I'd say it's no single thing. It's a bunch of things, most of which aren't combined by other programming languages. 2020-03-08T19:53:35Z vms14: seok: the answer is macros 2020-03-08T19:53:41Z aeth: seok: Well, the regular syntax just makes things look less out of place once you start inserting your own arbitrary macros (at least, as long as your macros don't look like LOOP) 2020-03-08T19:53:42Z vms14: it's code generation "on the fly" 2020-03-08T19:53:46Z Odin-: Macros are the only one that hardly anyone else implements _at all_. 2020-03-08T19:54:02Z seok: @aeth I actually liked lisp syntax when I first heard about it 2020-03-08T19:54:15Z Odin-: But it might be worth remembering that Lisp was the first programming language to feature 'if'. 2020-03-08T19:54:15Z seok: Haha 2020-03-08T19:54:18Z vms14: you can skip evaluating stuff, and reorder the syntax before getting it evaluated 2020-03-08T19:54:22Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-03-08T19:54:37Z vms14: so you could transform the syntax as you want 2020-03-08T19:54:54Z aeth: Odin-: IF is more of a precursor to the ternary. COND is more of a precursor to the actual if/else if/else block 2020-03-08T19:55:13Z seok: @Odin- what do you mean 2020-03-08T19:55:17Z vms14: and the parenthesis are what let you do that since they're delimiters of a list and the code it's just that. A list 2020-03-08T19:55:21Z seok: You can implement if in assembly tho 2020-03-08T19:55:27Z Odin-: aeth: Hm, true. 2020-03-08T19:55:40Z vms14: so to generate code you only have to generate a list 2020-03-08T19:55:45Z aeth: Odin-: to the point where if the order was reversed and COND came after languages with if blocks, then COND would probably be called IF because 'if' is the first thing you see in if/else if/else blocks 2020-03-08T19:55:54Z Odin-: aeth: Then again, I also noticed that my comfort with the ternary operator went through the roof after using CL for a while. :) 2020-03-08T19:56:24Z aeth: Odin-: yes, but you have to be careful because you can't expect everyone else to be able to read a nested ternary :-) 2020-03-08T19:56:26Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2020-03-08T19:56:44Z zulu_inuoe_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T19:56:44Z Odin-: aeth: Which sucks! :p 2020-03-08T19:57:28Z Odin-: seok: Obviously it can be implemented in assembly. Otherwise it couldn't be implemented on an actual computer. 2020-03-08T19:57:31Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-03-08T19:58:08Z seok: Yeah, so lisp is not the first language to use "if"? 2020-03-08T19:58:19Z Odin-: Errr. 2020-03-08T19:58:32Z aeth: seok: Assembly's conditional jumps isn't using structured programming. 2020-03-08T19:58:40Z Odin-: Assembly languages don't have 'if'. You can build if on top of conditional execution and branching. 2020-03-08T19:58:53Z seok: Ok 2020-03-08T19:59:02Z aeth: CL does have an equivalent to ASM, if you combine WHEN or UNLESS with GO in TAGBODY, but even that is contained to within the scope of TAGBODY. 2020-03-08T19:59:39Z vms14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T20:01:02Z aeth: (WHEN and UNLESS are just single-branch versions of IF) 2020-03-08T20:03:06Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:03:12Z aeth: seok: CL was the first language iirc to have something like COND, that is (cond ((> x y) :gt) ((< x y) :lt) (t :eq)) which is like (in pseudocode): if (x > y) return GT; else if (x < y) return LT; else return eq; 2020-03-08T20:03:37Z aeth: s/return eq/return EQ/ 2020-03-08T20:04:52Z seok: Right 2020-03-08T20:04:59Z aeth: (It's slightly different than the if/else if/else block in most programming languages because it implicitly has return values because it is an expression, not a statement.) 2020-03-08T20:05:00Z seok: I forget how old lisp is 2020-03-08T20:05:53Z seok: Unrelated question: is it discouraged to use CLOS to store simple hash-like data 2020-03-08T20:06:01Z aeth: Oh, right, not it wasn't CL, it was a precursor Lisp, probably LISP 1.5? 2020-03-08T20:06:07Z aeth: s/not it/it/ 2020-03-08T20:06:17Z Odin-: Indeed. 2020-03-08T20:06:28Z seok: wondering if it would cause performance hits 2020-03-08T20:07:19Z Odin-: seok: It may, but there's at least some effort to minimise it in some implementations. 2020-03-08T20:07:53Z seok: Because I don't know how much I will suffer in performance 2020-03-08T20:08:12Z seok: I can't make a decision whether to benefit in abstraction by using CLOS 2020-03-08T20:08:21Z seok: or to stick to hashes 2020-03-08T20:08:46Z Odin-: This is why you should use accessor functions either way, and profile diligently. 2020-03-08T20:08:49Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T20:09:06Z seok: What is an accessor function? 2020-03-08T20:09:13Z seok: I don't profile :( 2020-03-08T20:09:38Z aeth: An accessor function has a reader (getter) and a writer (setter). It doesn't have to be a method, e.g. CAR is an accessor 2020-03-08T20:09:53Z seok: ah 2020-03-08T20:09:53Z aeth: (setf (car list) 42) and (car list) 2020-03-08T20:10:01Z seok: okok 2020-03-08T20:10:19Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:10:32Z aeth: So you basically define a trivial function and a trivial matching SETF, and then the implementation details don't matter. 2020-03-08T20:11:05Z seok: Yeah 2020-03-08T20:11:09Z Odin-: Or start with a CLOS object with an accessor, and if that's not fast enough, you can change out the implementation if you need to. 2020-03-08T20:11:21Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-08T20:11:34Z ioa quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2020-03-08T20:11:49Z ioa joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:13:08Z aeth: Right, but there's essentially no difference from the API's point of view (as long as the user doesn't do :before/:after/:around) how it's implemented because of the unified function/method syntax. It could even be a macro, but then there are more places where that illusion fails, like higher order functions. 2020-03-08T20:13:32Z Odin-: Yup. 2020-03-08T20:14:01Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:14:02Z Odin-: And designing things so that you can change implementation details if needed is particularly useful for efficiency purposes. 2020-03-08T20:14:19Z aeth: I guess you could say that the concept of accessor is a bit... ducktyped? If there's a foo and an equivalent (setf foo) with the same API, then it's an accessor. 2020-03-08T20:15:03Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:15:51Z seok: well i tried it 2020-03-08T20:16:04Z seok: accessor for clos takes 184054 cpu cycles 2020-03-08T20:16:11Z seok: for hash it takes 1404 2020-03-08T20:16:24Z seok: thats a big difference eh? 2020-03-08T20:17:32Z aeth: CLOS is doing a runtime generic dispatch. 2020-03-08T20:17:41Z phlim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T20:17:50Z seok: ah 2020-03-08T20:17:57Z Odin-: It's kind of like the comparison between addition in C and addition in CL. 2020-03-08T20:17:58Z caltelt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T20:18:05Z Odin-: They're not really the same thing. 2020-03-08T20:18:23Z caltelt joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:18:38Z seok: Ok, I timed CLOS again 2020-03-08T20:18:43Z seok: and it takes 2900 cycles 2020-03-08T20:18:47Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-08T20:18:55Z seok: so not too bad 2020-03-08T20:19:01Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-08T20:19:17Z aeth: I guess it must sort of JIT it? 2020-03-08T20:19:27Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T20:19:33Z Odin-: Probably stores dispatch information somewhere. 2020-03-08T20:19:47Z seok: dunno, there seems to be some overhead in setting the variable the first time I call it 2020-03-08T20:20:10Z aeth: I wonder if adding a check-type before it is faster. 2020-03-08T20:20:47Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:20:59Z aeth: because now it knows what it is 2020-03-08T20:21:57Z Odin-: In any case, the general rule is that you shouldn't bother trying to carefully optimise something unless you have evidence it's a hot path. 2020-03-08T20:22:14Z Odin-: Surprisingly often, the real wins aren't where you expect them. 2020-03-08T20:22:34Z seok: Right 2020-03-08T20:22:43Z seok: Ya, I don't get any work done overthinking things 2020-03-08T20:25:46Z Odin-: It's also worth remembering that CL implementations differ massively on the performance choices made. 2020-03-08T20:28:05Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-03-08T20:35:51Z frgo quit 2020-03-08T20:37:39Z vlatkoB_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-03-08T20:39:01Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:39:24Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:40:15Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:45:32Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T20:46:05Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:46:09Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:46:47Z Jesin joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:47:39Z aeth: I only do detailed optimizations on SBCL because it actually provides the ability to do so without working too hard at it. My testing on the other implementations is more general rather than optimization. 2020-03-08T20:48:54Z aeth: The general advice is to avoid writing new macros where possible... but it kind of flips on its head if your program requires performance... Essentially, the more you can do in a macro, the less you have to do at runtime, and you don't have to care about the macro's performance at all (unless you're doing something really elaborate, which you won't be doing) so it can actually be easier. 2020-03-08T20:49:02Z aeth: But... most programs don't need that kind of performance. 2020-03-08T20:50:08Z aeth: (What I mean is that macros can be full of naive pure functions on lists without caring about if there are faster ways... so they can actually wind up being easier than normal high-performance code, in high-performance code.) 2020-03-08T20:50:31Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-08T20:51:46Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:55:38Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T20:55:40Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T20:57:55Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-08T21:03:19Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2020-03-08T21:04:10Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-08T21:05:10Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2020-03-08T21:07:47Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-08T21:08:59Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T21:11:32Z vms14 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T21:17:26Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-08T21:19:32Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T21:23:26Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-08T21:27:00Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-08T21:27:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-08T21:38:16Z vms14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T21:39:42Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-08T21:40:19Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-08T21:42:56Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T21:43:00Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T21:45:02Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-08T21:45:09Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-08T21:46:05Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-08T21:49:12Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T21:49:33Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-08T21:56:04Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T21:56:16Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-03-08T21:56:36Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T21:59:52Z jfb4: Xach, no-defun-allowed, pjb: belated (weeks) but many thanks for the several explanations above on tagged integers in CL, very interesting. #lisp is a great community 2020-03-08T22:01:21Z no-defun-allowed: seok: What do you mean by "benchmark CLOS"? 2020-03-08T22:02:26Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, many implementations will compile generic functions into a dispatch function, reducing the overhead for subsequent calls. 2020-03-08T22:03:58Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T22:11:45Z refpga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T22:13:47Z z147 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T22:15:01Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T22:16:05Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-08T22:18:21Z no-defun-allowed: mop compute-discriminating-function 2020-03-08T22:18:22Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-discriminating-function.html 2020-03-08T22:19:37Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-08T22:22:04Z bitmapper quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-08T22:22:30Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-08T22:23:53Z sraabe joined #lisp 2020-03-08T22:24:51Z sraabe quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-08T22:26:25Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-08T22:34:45Z bitmapper quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-08T22:34:50Z bitmappe_ joined #lisp 2020-03-08T22:37:39Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T22:41:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-08T22:52:28Z Ven`` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-08T22:54:16Z Inoperable joined #lisp 2020-03-08T22:58:05Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T22:58:44Z cuz joined #lisp 2020-03-08T22:59:00Z cuz left #lisp 2020-03-08T23:01:43Z adam4567 joined #lisp 2020-03-08T23:03:06Z dale joined #lisp 2020-03-08T23:07:01Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-08T23:08:24Z bitmappe_ quit 2020-03-08T23:08:42Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-08T23:14:58Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp 2020-03-08T23:16:43Z g0d_shatter joined #lisp 2020-03-08T23:17:48Z lottaquestions quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-08T23:19:40Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2020-03-08T23:21:02Z lottaquestions_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-08T23:36:47Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-08T23:43:38Z whiteline__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-08T23:43:38Z asarch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-08T23:45:45Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-03-08T23:47:03Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-03-08T23:47:53Z shrysr joined #lisp 2020-03-08T23:52:41Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-03-08T23:57:33Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-09T00:01:10Z asupalai joined #lisp 2020-03-09T00:06:22Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T00:10:54Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T00:18:16Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T00:19:09Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-03-09T00:19:41Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-03-09T00:23:10Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-09T00:29:20Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-09T00:43:07Z wsinatra_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2020-03-09T00:45:40Z curtmack joined #lisp 2020-03-09T00:47:13Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-09T00:47:31Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-03-09T00:48:01Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-03-09T00:53:00Z asupalai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T00:53:05Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-09T00:55:26Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-09T00:57:56Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T01:05:08Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-09T01:07:03Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-09T01:09:15Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-09T01:09:24Z asupalai joined #lisp 2020-03-09T01:16:43Z z147 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-09T01:34:10Z Jmabsd joined #lisp 2020-03-09T01:34:22Z Jmabsd: Can you please explain the utility of Common Lisp "dynamic variables" please 2020-03-09T01:35:39Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-09T01:39:55Z swills quit (Quit: swills) 2020-03-09T01:40:43Z Jmabsd2 joined #lisp 2020-03-09T01:41:04Z Josh_2: I can only think of times I have used it, when I need a variable that I can access in functions that are called after It's declaration 2020-03-09T01:41:10Z aeth: Jmabsd: They're mainly used for streams these days. It lets you do things like rebind *standard-output* to called functions without having to pass a standard-output variable through the entire call-stack, and once you leave the local rebinding, it is restored to its original value... (defun foo (stream) (let ((*standard-output* stream)) (format t "Hello, world!"))) 2020-03-09T01:41:14Z Josh_2: but can't remember why I did it xD 2020-03-09T01:42:10Z no-defun-allowed: Special variables are good for "configuration" things. 2020-03-09T01:42:16Z aeth: Jmabsd: Now, you can just replace "t" with "stream" in my example and it's not too complicated, but imagine instead that that FORMAT is 10 functions deep in called functions instead of directly in FOO 2020-03-09T01:42:36Z aeth: You'd have to pass a stream variable each time. 2020-03-09T01:42:47Z aeth: For debugging/logging, this might not be a good idea. 2020-03-09T01:43:02Z Jmabsd2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T01:43:18Z Jmabsd2 joined #lisp 2020-03-09T01:43:35Z Jmabsd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-09T01:44:03Z caltelt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-09T01:44:07Z no-defun-allowed: They're also good for function "arguments" that you don't really want to make arguments. For example, in my networked CLOS extension, a client can use a special variable to disable automatic retrieval of objects that are in network objects' slots. 2020-03-09T01:44:13Z aeth: Essentially, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-cutting_concern 2020-03-09T01:45:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-03-09T01:45:35Z aeth: You want your logging state to be in a special variable rather than in the parameters of every single function, or in the slots of data structures that are in the parameters of every single function. 2020-03-09T01:47:02Z swills joined #lisp 2020-03-09T01:47:31Z zulu_inuoe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-09T01:47:49Z Jmabsd2 quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-09T01:56:23Z caltelt joined #lisp 2020-03-09T01:58:34Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T02:02:06Z slyrus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-09T02:03:53Z asupalai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T02:07:35Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-09T02:15:38Z KDr21 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-09T02:23:16Z curtmack quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T02:24:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-09T02:26:46Z vhost- joined #lisp 2020-03-09T02:27:55Z caltelt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-09T02:30:31Z caltelt joined #lisp 2020-03-09T02:34:02Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-09T02:38:23Z epony quit (Quit: reconf) 2020-03-09T02:40:55Z epony joined #lisp 2020-03-09T02:43:13Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-03-09T02:45:03Z Jmabsd joined #lisp 2020-03-09T02:45:06Z Jmabsd: anyone? 2020-03-09T02:46:14Z Bike: Jmabsd: aeth already gave you a reasonable explanation 2020-03-09T02:46:25Z Bike: though i think "usually used for streams" is an exaggeration 2020-03-09T02:46:25Z Jmabsd: ah, i see 2020-03-09T02:46:58Z Jmabsd: ah, i see his explanation 2020-03-09T02:47:01Z Jmabsd: > They're mainly used for streams these days. It lets you do things like rebind *standard-output* to called functions without having to pass a standard-output variable through the entire call-stack, and once you leave the local rebinding, it is restored to its original value... (defun foo (stream) (let ((*standard-output* stream)) (format t "Hello, world!"))) 2020-03-09T02:47:07Z Jmabsd: > Now, you can just replace "t" with "stream" in my example and it's not too complicated, but imagine instead that that FORMAT is 10 functions deep in called functions instead of directly in FOO 2020-03-09T02:47:18Z Jmabsd: > You'd have to pass a stream variable each time. For debugging/logging, this might not be a good idea. 2020-03-09T02:47:20Z Jmabsd: um 2020-03-09T02:47:25Z Jmabsd: thanks! - 2020-03-09T02:48:06Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-09T02:48:53Z Jmabsd: Bike,aeth: someone told me that dynamic variables is like, one variable definition that will lead to different variable slots, depending on the scope of the code 2020-03-09T02:49:32Z Bike: i don't know what that means 2020-03-09T02:49:53Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, that's a little hard to understand. 2020-03-09T02:50:11Z Jmabsd2 joined #lisp 2020-03-09T02:51:10Z no-defun-allowed: My mental model is that the dynamic environment is an argument passed implicitly in every function call, and accepted implicitly by every function. 2020-03-09T02:52:27Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-09T02:53:03Z no-defun-allowed: Then, to get SYMBOL-VALUE of a symbol, we look up the symbol in that argument. To bind a special variable with LET, we construct a new environment with that variable bound and call everything in the LET body with that new environment. 2020-03-09T02:53:22Z Jmabsd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-09T03:01:14Z semz joined #lisp 2020-03-09T03:04:46Z devon joined #lisp 2020-03-09T03:16:35Z asupalai joined #lisp 2020-03-09T03:19:06Z asupalai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T03:20:12Z KDr2 joined #lisp 2020-03-09T03:22:46Z asupalai joined #lisp 2020-03-09T03:27:21Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-09T03:29:13Z Jmabsd2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-09T03:32:57Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2020-03-09T03:36:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T03:38:14Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-09T03:38:33Z Necktwi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-09T03:43:21Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T03:48:51Z Jmabsd joined #lisp 2020-03-09T03:49:28Z Jmabsd: Bke,aeth: can you do something like this: 2020-03-09T03:49:38Z Jmabsd: first in global scope: (defdynvar v) 2020-03-09T03:49:50Z Jmabsd: and then you do something like (defun (a) (with-dyn-var ((v 123)) (b))) 2020-03-09T03:49:55Z Jmabsd: (defun (b) (c)) 2020-03-09T03:50:00Z Jmabsd: (defun (c) (print v)) 2020-03-09T03:50:03Z Jmabsd: and v will print 123! 2020-03-09T03:50:10Z Jmabsd: Bike,aeth: is that possible? 2020-03-09T03:50:37Z Bike: well your syntax is completely wrong, but you have the basic idea correct, yes. 2020-03-09T03:51:03Z Bike: you'd write (defvar *v*) (defun a () (let ((*v* 123)) (b))) (defun b () (c)) (defun c () (print *v*)) 2020-03-09T03:52:38Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-09T04:03:14Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T04:03:46Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-09T04:04:19Z devon: Good evening all. 2020-03-09T04:05:31Z devon: Is there a QL way to "portably" create symbolic links? 2020-03-09T04:07:28Z g0d_shatter quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-09T04:08:17Z caltelt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-09T04:10:55Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-09T04:14:22Z zulu_inuoe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T04:14:42Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-09T04:17:08Z teej quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-09T04:17:22Z lottaquestions quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-09T04:17:32Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-03-09T04:17:43Z Jmabsd: Bike:: Oh, the (let ((*v* 123) will mean assignment of the dynamic variable?? 2020-03-09T04:17:54Z devon: G'day. 2020-03-09T04:18:14Z Bike: Jmabsd: binding. it's analogous to your "with-dyn-var". 2020-03-09T04:19:25Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2020-03-09T04:21:42Z Jmabsd: Bike: so normally, let means variable binding, but if a variable name belongs to a dynamic variable, let instead means dynamic variable instance allocaition and assignment? 2020-03-09T04:21:57Z Bike: yes, let can bind both lexical and special variables. 2020-03-09T04:22:08Z Jmabsd: Bike: can you give me a manual reference for dynamic variables? 2020-03-09T04:22:25Z Bike: sure, let me find it for you 2020-03-09T04:22:26Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-09T04:22:27Z Jmabsd: interesting. so "lexical" is normal. what are other special variables ,than dynamic vairables? 2020-03-09T04:22:45Z Bike: "special" and "dynamic" are interchangeable in this context 2020-03-09T04:22:49Z Jmabsd: the leading and ending star means dynamic vairable?? 2020-03-09T04:23:01Z Bike: yes. that's just a convention, since they're different from lexical variables 2020-03-09T04:23:02Z Jmabsd: or "defvar" means it's a dynamic vairable, in contrast with def which is the usual define form? 2020-03-09T04:23:14Z Bike: common lisp does not define any operator called "def" 2020-03-09T04:24:13Z Jmabsd: and the use (in print) is done implicitly 2020-03-09T04:24:15Z Bike: clhs 3.1.2.1.1.2 2020-03-09T04:24:16Z specbot: Dynamic Variables: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abaab.htm 2020-03-09T04:24:27Z Jmabsd: i.e. Common Lisp will automatically typecheck for you that this is a dynamic vairable, 2020-03-09T04:24:31Z Jmabsd: and then pull out its content for you 2020-03-09T04:24:56Z Bike: it's not a type check, the compiler just knows which variables are lexical and which are dynamic, because you tell it so 2020-03-09T04:25:33Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-09T04:25:40Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T04:26:44Z Jmabsd: Bike: err can you refer me to Lispworks' documentation for assigning and loading dynamic variables? 2020-03-09T04:26:58Z Jmabsd: Bike: the stars are necessary, in your example?? 2020-03-09T04:27:08Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-09T04:27:12Z Jmabsd: or could you as well just call it "v" 2020-03-09T04:27:17Z Bike: the stars are just a naming convention, so that you the human reader can tell lexical from dynamic variables easily 2020-03-09T04:27:21Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-09T04:27:25Z Bike: they're not required by the language 2020-03-09T04:27:32Z Jmabsd: (defvar v) (defun a () (let ((v 123)) (b))) (defun b () (c)) (defun c () (print v)) 2020-03-09T04:27:39Z Jmabsd: ah. 2020-03-09T04:28:05Z Bike: as for assigning and "loading", special variables use the same syntax as regular ones 2020-03-09T04:28:09Z Jmabsd: ok, so it's "defvar" vs "def", ok 2020-03-09T04:28:13Z Jmabsd: ok 2020-03-09T04:28:16Z Bike: there is no "def" 2020-03-09T04:28:24Z Bike: i don't know why you think there is a "def", but there is not. 2020-03-09T04:28:36Z Jmabsd: ah 2020-03-09T04:28:36Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Alph_D.htm behold 2020-03-09T04:28:40Z Jmabsd: how do you define a normal global variable? 2020-03-09T04:28:55Z no-defun-allowed: clhs defvar 2020-03-09T04:28:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm 2020-03-09T04:28:59Z no-defun-allowed: clhs defparameter 2020-03-09T04:29:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm 2020-03-09T04:29:01Z Jmabsd: ummmmm 2020-03-09T04:29:03Z Jmabsd: hey hey 2020-03-09T04:29:04Z Jmabsd: wait 2020-03-09T04:29:12Z Jmabsd: so how do you define a dynamic vairable versus a normal one 2020-03-09T04:29:13Z no-defun-allowed: Ooh, "global". Not easily. 2020-03-09T04:29:19Z Bike: lisp doesn't have a mechanism for defining global lexical variables 2020-03-09T04:29:25Z Jmabsd: defvar is specifically to make a dynamic variable 2020-03-09T04:29:34Z Jmabsd: so all globals are dynamic?? 2020-03-09T04:29:54Z Bike: global variables, yeah 2020-03-09T04:30:23Z Bike: there are also symbol macros, but that's a different can of fish 2020-03-09T04:30:59Z Jmabsd: ummmmmm ummm 2020-03-09T04:31:58Z Jmabsd: Bike: look at this http://paste.debian.net/1134081/ 2020-03-09T04:32:28Z Jmabsd: will this one print out "123 234 "? 2020-03-09T04:32:39Z Bike: no, because your print call is wrong 2020-03-09T04:32:44Z Jmabsd: ah 2020-03-09T04:32:46Z no-defun-allowed: ^^ 2020-03-09T04:32:46Z Jmabsd: how fix? 2020-03-09T04:32:51Z Jmabsd: remove the " " 2020-03-09T04:32:58Z Jmabsd: would it then print "123234"? 2020-03-09T04:33:15Z Bike: something like that yeah 2020-03-09T04:34:28Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-09T04:35:06Z Jmabsd: Bike: do you have some more manual reference? 2020-03-09T04:35:08Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-09T04:35:35Z Bike: for what 2020-03-09T04:35:40Z Jmabsd: dynamic variables 2020-03-09T04:35:51Z Bike: the page i linked is the core page 2020-03-09T04:35:55Z Jmabsd: Bike: so in other words, in Common Lisp, "let" will EITHER allocate a new variable slot, which is the case for lexical variables 2020-03-09T04:36:00Z Bike: from the definition of the semantics of the evaluation 2020-03-09T04:36:41Z Jmabsd: *OR* mean assignment of a dynamic variable, which is what it does if the bound variable name is a global define 2020-03-09T04:36:56Z Bike: binding. binding a dynamic variable. 2020-03-09T04:37:09Z Bike: you also shouldn't think of allocation, there's no reason a lexical variable couldn't be in a register. 2020-03-09T04:37:14Z Bike: but yes, LET can do two different things. 2020-03-09T04:37:16Z Jmabsd: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abaab.htm ? 2020-03-09T04:37:27Z Jmabsd: interesting 2020-03-09T04:37:31Z Bike: that is the basic page on dynamic variables, yes. 2020-03-09T04:38:23Z seok: "let" assigns a variable within that scope only 2020-03-09T04:38:25Z Jmabsd: interesting 2020-03-09T04:38:35Z Jmabsd: can you give me the CL spec for dynamic variable 2020-03-09T04:38:47Z seok: which language are you from? 2020-03-09T04:38:54Z Jmabsd: some other language 2020-03-09T04:38:58Z Bike: i did give you the spec! 2020-03-09T04:39:01Z Jmabsd: seok: yeah in that scope, i follow you 2020-03-09T04:39:02Z Bike: it is this page. 2020-03-09T04:39:04Z beach: Jmabsd: The Common Lisp HyperSpec *is* the Common Lisp specification for all practical purposes. 2020-03-09T04:39:06Z Jmabsd: Bike: Lispworks is the CL spec? oh 2020-03-09T04:39:07Z seok: which language 2020-03-09T04:39:11Z Jmabsd: i see 2020-03-09T04:39:14Z seok: lispworks follows the CL spec 2020-03-09T04:39:16Z Jmabsd: does SBCL have its own page? 2020-03-09T04:39:20Z Bike: well, i mean, it's formatted to look nicer 2020-03-09T04:39:26Z Bike: but this is essentially the language standard. 2020-03-09T04:39:32Z Jmabsd: Bike: wait, all these links are to lispworks.com . is this the "CL HyperSpec"? 2020-03-09T04:39:36Z seok: SBCL and lispworks follow the same spec 2020-03-09T04:39:39Z seok: yes 2020-03-09T04:39:40Z Jmabsd: ic 2020-03-09T04:39:40Z Jmabsd: ok 2020-03-09T04:39:57Z seok: they have implementation specific functions, but they are within their own libraries 2020-03-09T04:40:01Z Jmabsd: ok! 2020-03-09T04:40:01Z seok: like sbcl: 2020-03-09T04:40:38Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T04:41:19Z beach: Jmabsd: The ANSI standard is a document published by ANSI and exists only in printed form. Lispworks obtained the right from ANSI to turn the standard into an HTML document, and that is the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 2020-03-09T04:41:24Z Jmabsd: seok: yes? 2020-03-09T04:41:26Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-03-09T04:41:31Z Jmabsd: beach: ic 2020-03-09T04:41:40Z Jmabsd: ok great, thanks for clarfying! 2020-03-09T04:42:00Z seok: still not sure what you are trying to understand from the spec for variables 2020-03-09T04:42:01Z Jmabsd: beach,Bike,*: about dynamic variables in Common Lisp, the conversaiton we have had on the topic now **is exhaustive** isn't it 2020-03-09T04:42:09Z Jmabsd: for instance, CL does *NOT* have first class continuations, 2020-03-09T04:42:13Z seok: they are just like variables in other languages 2020-03-09T04:42:29Z seok: that's why I asked which language you are from 2020-03-09T04:42:39Z Bike: i don't think first class continuations are directly related to dynamic variables, but no, lisp does not have first class continuations. 2020-03-09T04:42:45Z Jmabsd: and for this reason you don't need to be worried about really exotic GOTO:s or such 2020-03-09T04:43:06Z beach: Jmabsd: It sounds like you are confusing many things. 2020-03-09T04:43:09Z Bike: well, it does have escape continuations. they're not quite first class though. 2020-03-09T04:43:16Z Jmabsd: Bike: well, if you would do ultraexotic GOTO:s between continuations, you would end up with the question "which assignment of a dynamic variable, should apply in which continuation" :) 2020-03-09T04:43:21Z Jmabsd: right 2020-03-09T04:43:45Z Bike: you can work that kind of thing out, it just gets more complicated 2020-03-09T04:43:56Z Jmabsd: escape continuation means N-step return, right 2020-03-09T04:44:19Z Jmabsd: e.g. "please return the past five procedures for me" 2020-03-09T04:44:24Z Jmabsd: similar to C++ exception throwing in a way 2020-03-09T04:44:48Z Jmabsd: > Bike: you can work that kind of thing out, it just gets more complicated 2020-03-09T04:45:00Z Jmabsd: Bike: well, CL dynamic variables would not accomodate such toying 2020-03-09T04:45:09Z Jmabsd: they are relative to the stack's work upward only aren't they 2020-03-09T04:45:36Z Jmabsd: basically the "let" form that assigns a dynamic variable, **WILL RESET THAT DYNAMIC VARIABLE TO ITS ORIGINAL VALUE, AT RETURN TIME** righT? 2020-03-09T04:45:49Z beach: Right. 2020-03-09T04:45:59Z Jmabsd: awesome. 2020-03-09T04:46:12Z beach: Even when the LET form is terminated abnormally. 2020-03-09T04:46:52Z beach: As in (tagbody (let ((*v* 234)) (go a)) a) 2020-03-09T04:46:54Z Jmabsd: great. 2020-03-09T04:46:56Z Jmabsd: yep 2020-03-09T04:47:00Z Bike: i mean you can do dynamic variables with first class continuations. racket does 2020-03-09T04:47:32Z semz: What was the original reason for not adding FCCs anyway? Difficulty of implementation? 2020-03-09T04:48:03Z Bike: mostly just that common lisp was developed to standardize things lisps already did, and they didn't do first class continuations. i think. 2020-03-09T04:48:04Z beach: semz: Strange semantics mainly, coupled with doubts about performance and usefulness. 2020-03-09T04:48:25Z beach: That's my guess anyway. 2020-03-09T04:48:27Z zulu_inuoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-09T04:48:28Z Bike: nowadays the new excitement is delimited continuations, anyway 2020-03-09T04:49:38Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-09T04:49:42Z Jmabsd: Bike: your (tagbody (let ((*v* 234)) (go a)) a) example 2020-03-09T04:49:45Z Jmabsd: why is this abnormal 2020-03-09T04:49:57Z beach: semz: It is not particularly difficult to implement. But either you need to have heap-allocated activation records, or you need some complicated stack copying when a continuation is captured. 2020-03-09T04:49:59Z Bike: my example? 2020-03-09T04:49:59Z Jmabsd: Bike: in Racket I presume they're called "parameter objects". 2020-03-09T04:50:07Z Bike: parameters, yes 2020-03-09T04:50:28Z beach: Jmabsd: That's my example. It is "abnormal" because there is a non-local control transfer. 2020-03-09T04:50:43Z Jmabsd: ah, "go" you mean? 2020-03-09T04:50:46Z beach: Yes. 2020-03-09T04:52:42Z beach: Jmabsd: If I elaborate a bit, like (tagbody (let ((*v* 234)) (print "hello") (go a) (print "hi")) a) then the "hi" will never be printed, so the LET body does not finish normally. 2020-03-09T04:53:16Z Jmabsd: what does go mean actually, GOTO? 2020-03-09T04:53:32Z beach: Essentially, yes. 2020-03-09T04:53:40Z Jmabsd: ok 2020-03-09T04:53:43Z Jmabsd: so just like, goto somewhere 2020-03-09T04:53:55Z beach: And the tag that it is transferring to is outside the scope of the LET. 2020-03-09T04:54:37Z Jmabsd: great. 2020-03-09T04:54:47Z Jmabsd: beach,Bike,aeth: thanks a ton for all your clarifications!! 2020-03-09T04:54:58Z beach: Pleasure. 2020-03-09T04:55:06Z Bike: no problemo 2020-03-09T04:56:32Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T04:57:38Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-03-09T05:01:49Z g0d_shatter joined #lisp 2020-03-09T05:06:32Z PuercoPope quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T05:09:12Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2020-03-09T05:11:22Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-09T05:11:40Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-09T05:13:35Z Jmabsd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-09T05:15:51Z ebrasca: beach: Hi 2020-03-09T05:20:52Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T05:23:38Z KDr2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T05:25:17Z KDr2 joined #lisp 2020-03-09T05:28:58Z HiRE: howdy everyone 2020-03-09T05:29:28Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-09T05:29:49Z beach: Hello HiRE. 2020-03-09T05:33:20Z HiRE: I got an opportunity to preach the good word about lisp 2020-03-09T05:33:23Z HiRE: a few days ago 2020-03-09T05:33:34Z HiRE: eventually I'll convert someone else to the church of parentheses 2020-03-09T05:33:55Z beach: Careful with that though. 2020-03-09T05:34:31Z HiRE: do I need to be careful who I convert 2020-03-09T05:35:00Z no-defun-allowed: Where did you "preach"? 2020-03-09T05:35:01Z beach: If you "convert" someone who then uses Common Lisp in a project, and something goes wrong, or that person uses it in a non-optimal way, you are the one responsible. 2020-03-09T05:35:32Z HiRE: oh it wasn't in a professional context. Someone asked me what the perfect idea of a language was and followed it up with if I could build a computer what would it look like 2020-03-09T05:35:40Z HiRE: I got to talk about why lisp is great and lisp machines were a good idea. 2020-03-09T05:35:42Z beach: HiRE: Then, if you are not able to fix the problems, Common Lisp as a whole will be blamed, and you will have had the opposite effect. 2020-03-09T05:35:58Z beach: HiRE: Oh, OK. 2020-03-09T05:36:02Z beach: Just be careful. 2020-03-09T05:36:08Z HiRE: yeah what you say makes sense 2020-03-09T05:36:28Z HiRE: thankfully lisp is gross to most people in the professional sense. If FAANG+ don't use it, it may as well not exist. 2020-03-09T05:36:31Z g0d_shatter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-09T05:36:35Z HiRE: At least this has been my experience as a consultant 2020-03-09T05:36:45Z Jmabsd joined #lisp 2020-03-09T05:36:51Z asupalai quit 2020-03-09T05:37:45Z ArthurStrong joined #lisp 2020-03-09T05:38:19Z HiRE: I had a funny thought the other day on campus with all the bible beaters coming around this time of year to preach we're all destined for eternal suffering 2020-03-09T05:38:40Z HiRE: I thought it would've been funny for one of them to tell me that and tell follow up with "yeah that's great and all but have you heard about lisp?" 2020-03-09T05:40:35Z no-defun-allowed: It's usually funnier to claim you partake in all the things that they think cause suffering, but I did give up on trying to advocate the use of Lisp, except for myself. 2020-03-09T05:41:03Z ArthurStrong left #lisp 2020-03-09T05:42:21Z HiRE: yeah im just in the honeymoon phase 2020-03-09T05:42:28Z HiRE: I'll become jaded at the world again soon enough 2020-03-09T05:43:07Z Josh_2: I agree with no-defun-allowed 2020-03-09T05:45:27Z HiRE: I do think one of the interesting aspects of lisp is that iirc you can compile lisp from the 60s still 2020-03-09T05:45:37Z HiRE: I dont know of many languages that have that level of backwards compatibility. 2020-03-09T05:45:45Z HiRE: I dont think fortran does 2020-03-09T05:45:56Z HiRE: algol maybe? lol 2020-03-09T05:57:20Z beach: HiRE: "bible beaters" coming to campus? You must live in a very strange country. 2020-03-09T05:57:31Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-03-09T05:58:34Z HiRE: beach, I live in the southwest US. Campuses here are open so we get all walks of extreme life wandering on campus to preach (not just the religious kind, but they seem to be the most common) 2020-03-09T05:58:53Z beach: So I was right. You *do* live in a very strange country. 2020-03-09T05:59:02Z HiRE: As long as they aren't creating a hostile (read: violent) situation the campus police tend to let them do what they want. 2020-03-09T05:59:15Z HiRE: yeah certainly weird 2020-03-09T05:59:23Z HiRE: I'd imagine in other countries that doesnt happen 2020-03-09T05:59:31Z beach: Not here. 2020-03-09T05:59:52Z HiRE: whereabouts are you? 2020-03-09T05:59:59Z beach: France, EU. 2020-03-09T06:00:13Z HiRE: oh cool. Are campuses closed off to non-students there? 2020-03-09T06:00:35Z beach: No, I don't think so. 2020-03-09T06:00:43Z HiRE: must be cultural then :p 2020-03-09T06:00:51Z beach: It's just that not many people are religious in western Europe. 2020-03-09T06:01:15Z beach: Also, France has a strict separation between church and state, and campuses are run by the state. 2020-03-09T06:01:18Z no-defun-allowed: Also not the case in Australia, and this university has a pretty open campus. 2020-03-09T06:01:26Z HiRE: oh like I said religious are the most common but we get very...expressive PETA people trying to block the SU to stop meat eaters for example. 2020-03-09T06:01:34Z HiRE: usually around holiday 2020-03-09T06:01:46Z beach: But we are drifting off topic. 2020-03-09T06:01:52Z HiRE: yes, its off topic for the channel - sorry. 2020-03-09T06:01:56Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-09T06:05:38Z aeth: It's more that the US government can't stop people from speaking in public spaces on public campuses because of the first amendment iirc. It's definitely exploitable. Start giving out LispOSes and spreading Lisp. 2020-03-09T06:06:48Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T06:06:53Z Josh_2: aeth: exactly 2020-03-09T06:06:58Z Josh_2: Lisp evangelism here we go! 2020-03-09T06:07:20Z HiRE: steal their techniques. Hand out usb drives with a copy of PCL, SICP, and a VM of genera 2020-03-09T06:07:44Z aeth: hand out CD-ROMs, true believers will find ways to read them 2020-03-09T06:07:48Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe not the last one. 2020-03-09T06:07:49Z HiRE: ah good idea 2020-03-09T06:08:07Z HiRE: the CD is the pure shape formed of a single empty S-expr 2020-03-09T06:08:35Z HiRE: a representation of the neophyte lisper 2020-03-09T06:09:55Z aeth: '(o) is basically a CD-ROM 2020-03-09T06:10:08Z Josh_2: you can get some pretty cheap USB's 2020-03-09T06:10:23Z aeth: yes, that's the joke, that CD-ROMs are probably more expensive these days because they're old tech 2020-03-09T06:16:01Z perdent joined #lisp 2020-03-09T06:16:06Z perdent: How do you calculate the Solubility Product Constant of a chemical e.g AgF in lisp? 2020-03-09T06:16:36Z no-defun-allowed: How do you calculate it without Lisp? 2020-03-09T06:17:09Z perdent: https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry_Textbook_Maps/Supplemental_Modules_(Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry)/Equilibria/Solubilty/Solubility_Product_Constant%2C_Ksp 2020-03-09T06:17:12Z perdent: Like that 2020-03-09T06:18:01Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-09T06:18:13Z HiRE: you'd probably need a chemist to write it but there's no reason lisp *couldnt* do it 2020-03-09T06:18:28Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-03-09T06:18:40Z perdent: HiRE no calculators exist online for it 2020-03-09T06:18:57Z beach: perdent: You would probably use the same formula in Common Lisp as in other languages. 2020-03-09T06:18:58Z perdent: so i cant imagine it being easy to write in lisp 2020-03-09T06:19:05Z perdent: or any lang 2020-03-09T06:19:13Z HiRE: it probably has less to do with the difficulty and more to do with the consumers of it 2020-03-09T06:19:23Z HiRE: if there aren't many people using it, and its specialized enough, no one is going to write a calculator for it 2020-03-09T06:19:36Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-03-09T06:19:41Z HiRE: A good example of something I've written that calculators dont really exist for (or are hard to find) are greeks for exotic options 2020-03-09T06:20:00Z HiRE: The math isn't difficult to translate - just no one's done it because its highly specialized bank stuff. 2020-03-09T06:20:08Z no-defun-allowed: The rule is there already. 2020-03-09T06:21:11Z HiRE: probably be a little nicer in CL since you can do some fun stuff with symbols to make the formula entry easier to write maybe. 2020-03-09T06:22:36Z no-defun-allowed: Say you have (defstruct product coefficient concentration), then the rule for each product could be (defun product-solubility-constant (product) (expt (product-concentration output) (product-coefficient output))), and then your SPC would be (reduce #'* products :key #'product-solubility-constant). 2020-03-09T06:23:13Z perdent: no-defun-allowed can you show me in here: https://rextester.com/l/common_lisp_online_compiler 2020-03-09T06:23:19Z no-defun-allowed: perdent: I'll leave making it symbolic to you, but as HiRE says, it should be pretty easy to do in Lisp (and moreso with a pattern matcher). 2020-03-09T06:23:23Z perdent: HiRE* 2020-03-09T06:23:37Z no-defun-allowed: No, I just gave you the relevant definitions. 2020-03-09T06:23:44Z HiRE: this strikes me as a homework question :) 2020-03-09T06:24:57Z HiRE: I dont really know enough to solve an equilibrium equation. I'm a CS guy and I only had to take intro chemistry in my undergrad. 2020-03-09T06:25:08Z HiRE: But it may be useful to start there and write the system to get the equilibrium equation. 2020-03-09T06:26:22Z no-defun-allowed: perdent: I'm quite busy with some other work, but that's basically all you need for the equation you gave me. 2020-03-09T06:26:44Z HiRE: you could have some function equilbrium solver that takes a number of chemical objects. Each chemical has it's associated ionic properties attached to it. Then you can return the a, b, c of the equilbrium 2020-03-09T06:26:52Z perdent: no-defun-allowed so it cant be done in one line and fit all equations given? 2020-03-09T06:26:59Z perdent: all compounds* 2020-03-09T06:27:17Z HiRE: a,c,d** 2020-03-09T06:27:20Z no-defun-allowed: And if this is homework for some class, I strongly encourage you to check your school's rules on plagiarism. My university does consider it plagiarism to get code from anyone. 2020-03-09T06:28:00Z no-defun-allowed: That description and that code was all on one line. 2020-03-09T06:28:33Z Josh_2: They don't have to know though :P 2020-03-09T06:28:45Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-09T06:29:07Z HiRE: well if your professor accepts a solution in lisp, they might be lurking this here channel ;D 2020-03-09T06:29:19Z no-defun-allowed: Josh_2: Hey, I don't think I'd be getting out of it easily if I helped someone else cheat in their classes. 2020-03-09T06:30:28Z perdent: nope its not homework 2020-03-09T06:30:44Z perdent: it can be in any language 2020-03-09T06:30:54Z perdent: doesnt have to be lisp 2020-03-09T06:31:14Z no-defun-allowed: This is #lisp, so we're only giving Lisp answers. 2020-03-09T06:32:06Z perdent: Yes which is why I asked in lisp how to do it 2020-03-09T06:32:14Z perdent: But i have been asking in other channels too 2020-03-09T06:32:57Z slyrus_: just to waste various channels' members time or for some more principled reason? 2020-03-09T06:33:10Z no-defun-allowed: Right. You can use the rules I gave then. 2020-03-09T06:33:16Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-09T06:34:56Z Josh_2: In first year I wrote half my friends C++ code oof 2020-03-09T06:34:56Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-09T06:35:02Z Josh_2: doesn't count to the degree so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 2020-03-09T06:45:01Z perdent: Im not sure your rules work 2020-03-09T06:45:13Z perdent: But I only know python im still learning lisp 2020-03-09T06:47:40Z buffergn0me: perdent: https://common-lisp.net/project/chemboy/ might have something useful 2020-03-09T06:52:03Z zulu_inuoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-09T06:54:39Z no-defun-allowed: I'm pretty confident my rules work. 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Is GENSYM a good function for this? 2020-03-09T12:46:38Z jmercouris: I don't see why not 2020-03-09T12:46:38Z minion: jmercouris, memo from pjb: the size of source files and their arrangement doesn't matter: just write an emacs command to fetch and save toplevel forms automatically in any organization you like and forget it! Don't visit lisp file, visit lisp toplevel forms! 2020-03-09T12:46:45Z didi: jmercouris: Thanks. 2020-03-09T12:47:12Z jmercouris: maybe a more straightforward solution would be incrementing some integer 2020-03-09T12:47:23Z didi: jmercouris: That was my first thought. 2020-03-09T12:47:24Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-09T12:48:38Z jackdaniel: gensym is not a good way to achieve this (unless you depend on eq, not the string-name) 2020-03-09T12:48:39Z didi: Although... How do I retrieve an object using a GENSYM? Hum... 2020-03-09T12:48:43Z jackdaniel: s/string-name/symbol-name/ 2020-03-09T12:48:53Z didi: jackdaniel: Indeed. 2020-03-09T12:49:03Z jackdaniel: indeed what? 2020-03-09T12:49:26Z didi: jackdaniel: It's not a good way, I think now. 2020-03-09T12:49:40Z jprajzne quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T12:50:21Z didi: Back to integers. 2020-03-09T12:50:56Z beach: didi: You retrieve the objects by sticking them in a hash table. 2020-03-09T12:51:26Z jmercouris: I was just thinking of gensym to make keys to the hash table 2020-03-09T12:51:54Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-09T12:52:23Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-09T12:52:44Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: what for? 2020-03-09T12:52:48Z jmercouris: why not? 2020-03-09T12:52:56Z jmercouris: I mean it would work just fine 2020-03-09T12:53:48Z jackdaniel: usually you put something in a hash table to retreive it by a key 2020-03-09T12:53:58Z jmercouris: right, and if you want a unique key? 2020-03-09T12:53:59Z jackdaniel: are you going to have a separate collection of keys? 2020-03-09T12:54:17Z jmercouris: not necessarily, you could still iterate over the hash table 2020-03-09T12:54:27Z jmercouris: and maybe those objects themselves also know their key 2020-03-09T12:54:41Z jmercouris: I don't know the application here, but if you are just trying for unique names, gensym would suffice 2020-03-09T12:54:45Z jackdaniel: this does not make much sense to me 2020-03-09T12:55:26Z jackdaniel: if you want to iterate over a collection, then sequence is plenty 2020-03-09T12:55:38Z jmercouris: sometimes compound data structures are very useful 2020-03-09T12:55:41Z v_m_v_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T12:55:44Z jackdaniel: if you are going to find keys in objects, then why query the hash table? 2020-03-09T12:55:45Z beach: I totally agree with jackdaniel. 2020-03-09T12:55:57Z jmercouris: how can you agree upon a theoretical application? 2020-03-09T12:56:04Z jmercouris: we have no idea what/how the objects will be used :-D 2020-03-09T12:56:14Z jmercouris: anyways, whatever :-D 2020-03-09T12:56:17Z jackdaniel: don't get me wrong, I find hash tables very important part of CL, just your proposal doesn't make sense 2020-03-09T12:58:08Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-09T12:59:04Z jackdaniel: that reminds me a story from university - we had a group project and I've convinced folks, that we should do it in CL (they will do the C part and I will code the CL part) -- it was a success, we've all passed 2020-03-09T12:59:09Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-09T12:59:49Z jackdaniel: since I didn't want any instability in the project, I've asked them to implement a hash table in C; and then when they were not able to deliver in time, I've "remembered", that common lisp has hash tables 2020-03-09T13:02:22Z jackdaniel: (so there was no C in the project in the end) 2020-03-09T13:07:24Z beach: Nice! 2020-03-09T13:08:39Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-09T13:11:16Z lucasb joined #lisp 2020-03-09T13:17:53Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-09T13:18:35Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-09T13:18:50Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-09T13:18:53Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T13:19:15Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-09T13:19:42Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T13:21:08Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-09T13:21:10Z _death: why weren't they able to implement a hash table? 2020-03-09T13:22:29Z jackdaniel: they had a prototype, but it had bugs 2020-03-09T13:22:37Z _death: also, in the end, was all the code written by you? 2020-03-09T13:23:06Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-09T13:23:06Z jackdaniel: the frontend part was written by another guy in js/html; we've also all designed the solution 2020-03-09T13:23:08Z lieven: lol it's not like there are no C libraries that implement hash tables 2020-03-09T13:23:24Z jmercouris: yeah, there are a ton of them 2020-03-09T13:23:32Z jmercouris: it sounds like your classmates simply did not wish to do the task 2020-03-09T13:23:48Z jackdaniel: it was not allowed to use 3rd-party libraries 2020-03-09T13:24:09Z jackdaniel: and it made sense. like: there is i.e plenty of graph libraries, but when you learn about graph algorithms you are expected to write them 2020-03-09T13:24:21Z lieven: sure 2020-03-09T13:24:41Z jmercouris: I'm not sure how that makes sense, in my classes you were always allowed 3rd party libraries 2020-03-09T13:24:48Z jmercouris: unless the purpose of the problem was to implement something like a hash table 2020-03-09T13:24:58Z jmercouris: if that was just a secondary aspect of the problem, then I see it as wholly irrelevant 2020-03-09T13:25:07Z _death: a simple hash table is not something you need a library for.. 2020-03-09T13:25:24Z jmercouris: no, but maybe you want a lot of data structures and they come in a nice little C library 2020-03-09T13:25:27Z jmercouris: why reinvent the wheel? 2020-03-09T13:25:46Z _death: jmercouris: the wheel gets reinvented all the time, by everyone 2020-03-09T13:25:47Z dlowe: it's really easy to come up with a terrible hash function 2020-03-09T13:25:51Z jackdaniel: reinventing a wheel is a great learning experience 2020-03-09T13:25:57Z jmercouris: IF the goal is to make a wheel 2020-03-09T13:26:10Z jmercouris: if you are making a car, there is no need to make each wheel, that's not the point of the exercise, that's what I'm saying 2020-03-09T13:26:29Z jmercouris: of course we implemented all sorts of data structures, but only when it was the point to learn those data structures 2020-03-09T13:26:41Z jmercouris: otherwise we use another implementation, as one would do in real life 2020-03-09T13:28:07Z jackdaniel: I don't think that this regime of learning brought you to a proficiency in looking for solutions 2020-03-09T13:28:40Z jackdaniel: s/looking for/coming up with/ 2020-03-09T13:28:53Z jmercouris: I'm not sure why you always make things so personal 2020-03-09T13:29:05Z jmercouris: Let me rephrase what you just said 2020-03-09T13:29:13Z jmercouris: "Your university sucked, and you are an idiot" 2020-03-09T13:29:34Z jackdaniel: that is very rude of you to put such words in my mouth 2020-03-09T13:29:40Z jmercouris: lol, get off your high horse 2020-03-09T13:29:44Z jmercouris: you started by blatantly insulting me 2020-03-09T13:29:49Z jmercouris: anyone can clearly see that by what you wrote 2020-03-09T13:30:07Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-09T13:30:16Z jackdaniel: no, I've commented that you often ask very basic questions, yet you are very certain about your opinions regarding education 2020-03-09T13:30:55Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-09T13:32:15Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2020-03-09T13:32:15Z jackdaniel: as a side note, and it is the last thing I want to add to this, is that the way you put critic matters, i.e it is a difference when you say, that someone is not proficient in something and when you say that someone is stupid. 2020-03-09T13:32:16Z LiamH joined #lisp 2020-03-09T13:32:39Z jackdaniel: and both phrasings mean completely different things 2020-03-09T13:33:35Z mercourisj joined #lisp 2020-03-09T13:33:39Z thodg quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-03-09T13:33:50Z _death: I would also like to say that the novelty in implementing yet another hash table may be a personal novelty: gaining an understanding of something 2020-03-09T13:33:54Z jmercouris quit (Disconnected by services) 2020-03-09T13:33:57Z mercourisj is now known as jmercouris 2020-03-09T13:34:08Z jmercouris: you just don't know when to stop 2020-03-09T13:34:20Z jmercouris: "you always ask such stupid simple things" 2020-03-09T13:34:24Z _death: that's why it's good to reinvent wheels 2020-03-09T13:34:31Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-09T13:34:38Z jmercouris: you may be a good programmer, but you are lacking social skills 2020-03-09T13:34:42Z jackdaniel: I've understood pointers after countless hours of implementing linked lists 2020-03-09T13:34:44Z jmercouris: and with that, I'm off for now 2020-03-09T13:34:50Z jmercouris left #lisp 2020-03-09T13:35:16Z jackdaniel: I need to have a permanent "bad guy" badget pinned, so people don't confuse me for a nice person I suppose 2020-03-09T13:35:21Z jackdaniel: badge* 2020-03-09T13:35:26Z _death: jackdaniel: interesting.. my understanding of pointers was natural because I learned assembly before C :) 2020-03-09T13:35:35Z jackdaniel: heh 2020-03-09T13:35:41Z jackdaniel: C was my first language 2020-03-09T13:37:37Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-09T13:37:38Z _death: and they were more various than plain C.. there were near pointers and far pointers, you had to understand segments, banking, etc. 2020-03-09T13:38:12Z jackdaniel: I'm oblivious to such concerns 2020-03-09T13:39:12Z didi left #lisp 2020-03-09T13:39:21Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-09T13:43:05Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-09T13:46:31Z sammich quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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implementation independent abstract pathnames that you can use in your application independently of the actual physical pathnames on the target platform. 2020-03-09T18:16:03Z pjb: random-nick: the program, or the user, may provide a translation table to map logical pathnames to physical pathnames. 2020-03-09T18:16:34Z didi: How do I read the other keys of (lambda (&key &allow-other-keys) ...)? 2020-03-09T18:16:48Z Bike: What do you mean, didi? 2020-03-09T18:16:49Z pjb: didi: with &rest. 2020-03-09T18:17:30Z didi: Bike: ((lambda (&key &allow-other-keys)) :foo "bar") and I want to know :foo. 2020-03-09T18:17:33Z didi: pjb: Thanks. 2020-03-09T18:17:39Z pjb: ((lambda (&rest other-keys &key &allow-other-keys) (loop for (k v) on other-keys by (function cddr) collect k)) :foo 42 :bar 33) #| --> (:foo :bar) |# 2020-03-09T18:17:39Z Bike: ah. then yeah, &rest 2020-03-09T18:17:55Z didi bows 2020-03-09T18:18:19Z v_m_v_ joined #lisp 2020-03-09T18:19:59Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the 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2020-03-09T19:53:23Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-03-09T19:54:05Z lisplearner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T19:55:15Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-09T19:57:49Z jcowan joined #lisp 2020-03-09T19:57:58Z jcowan: Can anyone point me to a description of how threads and dynamic variables interact, especially in systems using kernel-level threads? Obviously this is implementation-specific, but I don't at present care which implementation is described. 2020-03-09T20:00:22Z Bike: that's actually semi standardized. see make-thread in https://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation 2020-03-09T20:00:27Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:01:14Z Bike: tl;dr globals are shared, bindings are not, new threads may or may not inherit bindings. 2020-03-09T20:02:19Z White_Flame: and being OS-provided threads vs userspace threading implementation shouldn't matter 2020-03-09T20:06:50Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T20:07:17Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:09:13Z izh_ joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:11:26Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:11:43Z luckless quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-09T20:12:03Z luckless joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:12:36Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:13:57Z jcowan: Thanks. 2020-03-09T20:17:08Z jcowan: When local bindings are not shared, are they typically copied from the creating threads, or set to the global value? 2020-03-09T20:19:06Z lisplearner joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:19:13Z phoe: likely the latter 2020-03-09T20:19:18Z phoe: or rather 2020-03-09T20:19:19Z fe[nl]ix: it's implementation-specific 2020-03-09T20:19:31Z Inline: global poisoning ? 2020-03-09T20:19:33Z Inline: bleh 2020-03-09T20:19:41Z Inline: that's not wished for anyway 2020-03-09T20:19:46Z phoe: it is possible to set the global binding from one thread and have that affect the other 2020-03-09T20:19:53Z phoe: at least in some impls 2020-03-09T20:20:01Z fe[nl]ix: that's why bordeaux-threads has its own way of specifying initial bindings 2020-03-09T20:20:03Z jcowan: So there are three cases: shared, copied, completely new? 2020-03-09T20:20:08Z Inline: either you have some application logic which requires copying values to globals 2020-03-09T20:20:16Z phoe: so if you do not want that to happen, do what fe[nl]ix says and create new bindings for that thread 2020-03-09T20:20:24Z Inline: or you somehow can access them thread-local wise..... 2020-03-09T20:20:35Z phoe: or if you *want* globals that you can edit from between multiple threads, use https://github.com/lmj/global-vars 2020-03-09T20:20:46Z Bike: two cases. a new thread either accesses its own bindings (with copied values or not), or global bindings. it can't alter its parent's bindings. 2020-03-09T20:20:50Z Bike: i think 2020-03-09T20:22:28Z jcowan: Bordeaux-threads explicitly permits this 2020-03-09T20:22:44Z Bike: Permits what? 2020-03-09T20:23:02Z Bike: oh, you're right. never mind me then. 2020-03-09T20:23:10Z fe[nl]ix: jcowan: AFAIK no implementation shares bindings 2020-03-09T20:23:11Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:23:18Z jcowan: Shared local bindings: "Local bindings in the the caller of MAKE-THREAD may or may not be shared with the new thread that it creates: this is implementation-defined." 2020-03-09T20:23:25Z Bike: thought it was just talking about the values, my b 2020-03-09T20:23:54Z fe[nl]ix: so it's either copy or null (revert to global) 2020-03-09T20:24:09Z luni joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:24:21Z jcowan: I'm surprised that b-t explicitly permits this if it's unused by any implementation. 2020-03-09T20:24:48Z Bike: might have been done when b-t was new? 2020-03-09T20:25:05Z fe[nl]ix: jcowan: what are you referring to ? 2020-03-09T20:25:18Z jcowan scratches his head 2020-03-09T20:25:31Z jcowan: The remark I quoted above, which comes from the linked page on b-t 2020-03-09T20:26:14Z fe[nl]ix: I need to update the docs 2020-03-09T20:26:31Z fe[nl]ix: that sentence refers to the native behaviour 2020-03-09T20:26:42Z jcowan: Different Schemes use all three strategies: the null strategy has been declared non-conformant, and the other two strategies are finessed by not allowing local bindings to be mutated as opposed to rebound. 2020-03-09T20:27:07Z jcowan: s/finessed/& in portable code 2020-03-09T20:27:54Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2020-03-09T20:27:58Z Inline: so you can't add new bindings nor delete existing bindings in a thread from the outside 2020-03-09T20:28:00Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-09T20:28:21Z Inline: you can only change the values of the existing bindings in that thread 2020-03-09T20:28:45Z Inline: ? 2020-03-09T20:29:34Z jcowan: Only if you share a common ancestry with them and your implementation uses the sharing approach. Nobody that I know of allows you to mutate the bindings of an arbitrary thread from an arbitrary other thread. 2020-03-09T20:30:05Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T20:30:07Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-09T20:30:16Z Inline: hmmm 2020-03-09T20:30:59Z Bike: sbcl exports sb-thread:symbol-value-in-thread, which lets you read and write them from other threads. 2020-03-09T20:31:36Z fe[nl]ix: jcowan: (bt:interrupt-thread (lambda () (setf *foo* 42))) 2020-03-09T20:31:54Z jcowan: Bike: ah, thanks 2020-03-09T20:32:07Z jcowan: so essentially running code in the context of another thread 2020-03-09T20:33:19Z fe[nl]ix: yes 2020-03-09T20:33:49Z fe[nl]ix: you can implement symbol-value-in-thread in terms of interrupt-thread 2020-03-09T20:36:21Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-03-09T20:39:45Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:40:09Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T20:40:41Z lisplearner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T20:40:48Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:42:11Z jcowan: I note that b-t supports the eeeeevil destroy-thread 2020-03-09T20:42:36Z White_Flame: it always bugs me from a micro-optimization perspective that there's no (as far as I'm aware) declaration to say "always use the TLS value, and don't fallback to global" 2020-03-09T20:43:09Z White_Flame: since lots of my usage only ever uses a tread-local binding 2020-03-09T20:43:09Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:43:41Z White_Flame: and the disasembly always shows a test for unbound TLS lookup and fallback to global 2020-03-09T20:45:06Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T20:48:11Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:49:32Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T20:50:07Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:50:58Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:53:59Z amerigo joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:55:20Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:57:29Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-03-09T20:59:27Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-09T20:59:51Z phoe: seems like there's no explicit per-thread-local storage in modern implementations 2020-03-09T20:59:58Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-09T21:00:21Z phoe: like static global variables from global-vars, just having a per-thread binding that is impossible to rebind 2020-03-09T21:01:55Z rpg: @fe[nl]ix: Thanks for sending that Travis script. I have it *almost* working thanks to your help. I'm getting a problem where my 5AM test job runs long, and Travis squashes it because of no output for 10 minutes. Do you by any chance know if there's a way to cause 5AM to periodically write something to the console? 2020-03-09T21:02:48Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-09T21:04:31Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: while not as convenient as simply putting a symbol, you may use sb-thread:symbol-value-in-thread 2020-03-09T21:06:37Z rpg: @fe[nl]ix: Actually, never mind -- I found a loop that would run very long, not printing anything unless some member of its set of plans failed. Adding gratuitous output will fix this, I hope! 2020-03-09T21:06:39Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-03-09T21:07:06Z phoe: rpg: one usually wants plenty of output in CI logs anyway, in case something goes bad 2020-03-09T21:07:38Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-09T21:07:54Z jackdaniel: however I doubt it will be faster 2020-03-09T21:07:58Z luni left #lisp 2020-03-09T21:12:03Z White_Flame: yeah, that's a pretty reasonable doubt :-P 2020-03-09T21:12:13Z White_Flame: although, might as well test 2020-03-09T21:15:36Z White_Flame: doesn't look like there's any inline optimization in using sb-thread:*current-thread*, although it's next to tools that might be abke to hack direct access 2020-03-09T21:17:19Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-09T21:18:10Z jcowan: You could simulate per-thread variables by using thread objects as property indicators on the p-list of the symbol, though you'd need to gc them somehow if you have lots of threads being created and dying. 2020-03-09T21:18:23Z rpg: phoe: Yes. This isn't really useful information I am printing, though -- it's more a heartbeat than anything else. 2020-03-09T21:20:32Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2020-03-09T21:21:54Z devon joined #lisp 2020-03-09T21:22:26Z White_Flame: yeah, manually using the low-level TLS access stuff compiles to much larger code than dereferencing a variable. It doesn't constant propagate the symbol offset, and currently has to hit the symbol-value of *current-thread* 2020-03-09T21:23:07Z White_Flame: although, it reads *current-thread* ONLY from the TLS without a global fallback, which is exactly what I want. I wonder how it's declared... 2020-03-09T21:23:19Z caltelt joined #lisp 2020-03-09T21:23:53Z White_Flame: (sb-impl::define-thread-local ). Cool 2020-03-09T21:25:11Z White_Flame: but... that doesn't seem to exist at runtime :-P 2020-03-09T21:27:26Z White_Flame: I think the "best" way might be to define a custom VOP, since it generates just a single asm instruction 2020-03-09T21:29:52Z phoe: rpg: (let ((stream *standard-output*)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (loop do (sleep 10) if *keep-printing-p* do (princ "." stream) else (loop-finish))))) 2020-03-09T21:30:06Z phoe: I mean, else do (loop-finish) 2020-03-09T21:33:34Z Bike: White_Flame: there's an sb-ext:global proclamation, so sbcl could just be extended to have the opposite of that 2020-03-09T21:33:50Z White_Flame: yeah, I've used that one 2020-03-09T21:34:01Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-09T21:35:15Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-09T21:35:34Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-09T21:36:21Z jackdaniel: while local would be proper english, disglobal sounds so much better ,) 2020-03-09T21:36:46Z Shinmera: unglobald 2020-03-09T21:38:38Z aeth: We can use "special characters" in names. Take advantage of that. ~global or ¬global 2020-03-09T21:39:54Z Bike: i guess the issue is that global is a pretty easy to enforce declaration, but local is not 2020-03-09T21:40:15Z Bike: maybe if you also gave it a default thread local binding 2020-03-09T21:40:43Z phoe: but you can't do that with a declaration alone, or can you 2020-03-09T21:40:56Z phoe: s/declaration/proclamation/ 2020-03-09T21:41:50Z sjl: def🌐 2020-03-09T21:41:52Z Bike: you could have proclaim signal an error if you try to proclaim local-ness for a variable with no default thread local whatever... i guess the default thread local whatevers can be removed later, though. 2020-03-09T21:42:26Z phoe: or proclaim it to be local 2020-03-09T21:42:36Z phoe: and have the default value be the unbound marker 2020-03-09T21:42:44Z phoe: just like in case of one-arg DEFVAR 2020-03-09T21:43:12Z White_Flame: that's the existing behavior 2020-03-09T21:43:26Z Bike: oh, yeah, that's true, i guess you don't need to worry about boundedness so much 2020-03-09T21:43:32Z White_Flame: the TLS table is checked first, and if it's unbound, then the global slot is used 2020-03-09T21:43:38Z Bike: just compile references to *foo* to check the TL value and then otherwise signal unbound 2020-03-09T21:43:53Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-09T21:44:02Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: I can't help but wonder, is this really the bottleneck in your application? 2020-03-09T21:44:06Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-09T21:44:16Z White_Flame: no, it's just a tiny microoptimization, as stated 2020-03-09T21:44:24Z White_Flame: something that annoys me in disassemblies 2020-03-09T21:44:31Z jackdaniel: ah, OK 2020-03-09T21:44:40Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-09T21:44:52Z White_Flame: but writes are actually worse than reads, which I do quite often to set debugging progress info 2020-03-09T21:44:55Z montxero joined #lisp 2020-03-09T21:45:01Z jackdaniel: I rarely look at disassemblies, usually when I have a bottleneck which can't be normally addressed or when I have some nasty bug 2020-03-09T21:46:14Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-09T21:48:43Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-09T21:50:14Z refpga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T21:58:07Z z147 joined #lisp 2020-03-09T22:01:14Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-09T22:01:28Z Bike quit (Quit: Bike) 2020-03-09T22:01:35Z aeth: I frequently look at disassemblies. It can be very useful to e.g. objectively see if two different ways to write the code produce the same end result in a given compiler (and optimization levels, etc.). 2020-03-09T22:02:30Z White_Flame: it can also be useful to increase blood pressure in seeing a lack of peephole optimizer in sbcl ;) 2020-03-09T22:02:44Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T22:03:02Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-09T22:03:15Z aeth: I kind of wish there was an exposed IR (if compilers use IR) because you don't really need the *assembly*, you just need something to show that two things are equivalent. 2020-03-09T22:06:38Z jackdaniel: hm, interesting idea 2020-03-09T22:06:58Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-03-09T22:07:09Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2020-03-09T22:07:22Z jackdaniel: maybe it could be an extension to disassemble as a keyword argument 2020-03-09T22:07:27Z jackdaniel: :show-ir t 2020-03-09T22:11:28Z aeth: If the IR is returned as s-expressions from a function, then you could just EQUALP a global to see if changing the code changes the IR... 2020-03-09T22:12:01Z aeth: Sometimes that's all you need. 2020-03-09T22:12:05Z samarth joined #lisp 2020-03-09T22:20:18Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T22:20:26Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-09T22:20:31Z elderK joined #lisp 2020-03-09T22:20:45Z elderK: Good morning, everyone! 2020-03-09T22:20:45Z minion: elderK, memo from phoe: PLNs are now in SBCL, CCL, ECL, ACL, ABCL, Clasp, and will be available in LW after the next release. 2020-03-09T22:20:57Z elderK: I was wondering why some people enter the cl-user package before they define new packages. 2020-03-09T22:21:09Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-03-09T22:21:47Z aeth: elderK: because DEFPACKAGE might not be there. 2020-03-09T22:21:57Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-09T22:22:16Z aeth: elderK: I personally do (cl:defpackage ...) and (cl:in-package ...) but most tools aren't smart enough to realize that that's the same thing as defpackage and in-package 2020-03-09T22:22:23Z aeth: So it does break e.g. highlighting 2020-03-09T22:22:47Z elderK: aeth: Ah, I see. That makes sense. Thank you. 2020-03-09T22:22:57Z jackdaniel: I always use defpackage and in-package 2020-03-09T22:23:15Z aeth: elderK: Until you get to the line after the cl:in-package part of your file, you simply don't know what package you're actually in. So everything before that point should use cl, if they're not first in-packaged instead. 2020-03-09T22:23:16Z jackdaniel: if someone spoofs these symbols when loading/compiling the file, then they probably know what they are doing 2020-03-09T22:23:31Z aeth: jackdaniel: I'm more concerned about the symbol not being present at all, rather than being spoofed. 2020-03-09T22:23:53Z jackdaniel: it is unlikely it won't exist 2020-03-09T22:24:08Z jackdaniel: and you give a freeway to people who want to do interesting things with packages 2020-03-09T22:24:20Z jackdaniel: (by not specifying cl verbatim) 2020-03-09T22:24:46Z jackdaniel: note, that you don't know what readtable you are in neither (; 2020-03-09T22:25:06Z elderK: Another question I have, regarding aesthetics, is regarding the margin used by most CL developers. In the C world, I'm used to working within 76 characters. I have been trying to keep to that limit in the CL I write, but I'm finding it difficult. 2020-03-09T22:25:24Z elderK: So, I was wondering what the common limit is :) 2020-03-09T22:25:33Z elderK: Also, hi jackdaniel! I know you from #osdev :) 2020-03-09T22:25:50Z jackdaniel: I don't think I've ever joined this channel 2020-03-09T22:26:04Z aeth: jackdaniel: Well, all I do about the reader is not assume upcasing. So I do (symbol-name '#:foo) instead of "FOO" in macros. A compiler should be able to turn that into the constant "FOO". I used to put a #. in front, but that's unnecessary. 2020-03-09T22:26:32Z elderK: jackdaniel: Perhaps I am mistaken. I could've been sure that I've seen you either there, or on the osdev forums. If not, my mistake. 2020-03-09T22:27:00Z elderK: Yet another question: Is there any merit in using #:thing vs. :thing vs thing in defpackage, say for exports? 2020-03-09T22:28:04Z jackdaniel: elderK: I'm not in these circles, so you probably think about someone else 2020-03-09T22:28:19Z aeth: elderK: It's probably a name collision. 2020-03-09T22:28:19Z jackdaniel: as of thing, #:thing would be best, because you don't intern any symbols in other packages 2020-03-09T22:28:59Z jackdaniel: if you do simply thing, then you intern in whatever package is in action, if you do :thing, you create a keyword 2020-03-09T22:29:14Z jackdaniel: n.b, same goes for package names 2020-03-09T22:29:28Z jackdaniel: (defpackage #:foobar …) (in-package #:foobar) 2020-03-09T22:29:57Z elderK: Thank you 2020-03-09T22:30:22Z jackdaniel: sure 2020-03-09T22:32:38Z aeth: My style is (cl:defpackage #:foobar (:use #:cl) (:export #:foo #:bar)) 2020-03-09T22:35:57Z aeth: At the moment, I do an extensive list of IMPORT-FROMs, but maybe I should use PLNs 2020-03-09T22:38:41Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-09T22:38:45Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-09T22:40:04Z elderK: aeth: I've been using a lot of import-froms, too. 2020-03-09T22:43:06Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-09T22:44:50Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-09T22:53:05Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T22:56:16Z z147: elderK, two of the style guides suggests 100 columns for CL https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml https://lisp-lang.org/style-guide/ 2020-03-09T22:58:06Z samarth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T23:02:29Z aeth: I use 100 columns as a "soft limit", as in if you have to rewrite your code just to meet line limit rules, you're probably going to mess things up 2020-03-09T23:03:19Z jackdaniel: I'm using 80 characters, because on 1080p lapop it makes two columns full screen, and on 4k monitors it makes four columns with a font which is good for me 2020-03-09T23:04:58Z jackdaniel: and indeed, where it is due, the "limit" is broken 2020-03-09T23:05:09Z aeth: For my font size, screen, configuration, etc., my limit to fit in a column with a 4-way split is 92. 2020-03-09T23:05:33Z aeth: *92 characters 2020-03-09T23:06:10Z aeth: If people are utilizing their screens to the fullest, they probably are somewhere between 80 and 120 characters for a file, so the limits are absolutely still relevant today. 2020-03-09T23:06:28Z lxbarbosa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T23:07:11Z aeth: 72-80 is pretty hard because of the long names that idiomatic Lisp has 2020-03-09T23:07:16Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-03-09T23:10:20Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-09T23:10:57Z z147: Oh if more were idiomatic, sure makes reading easier. 2020-03-09T23:13:32Z aeth: (let ((|The most descriptive variable name is the variable itself.| "The most descriptive variable name is the variable itself.")) |The most descriptive variable name is the variable itself.|) => "The most descriptive variable name is the variable itself." 2020-03-09T23:13:56Z Odin-: There is such a thing as overkill. 2020-03-09T23:14:41Z Odin-: Also, isn't the pretty printer basically a response to needing to fit Lisp code into relatively narrow outputs? 2020-03-09T23:14:59Z jackdaniel: (let ((|There is such a thing as overkill| t)) (values |There is such a thing as overkill| :goodnight);) 2020-03-09T23:15:44Z Odin-: The existence of miser mode rather suggests that to me. 2020-03-09T23:16:01Z aeth: (defun |Who needs docstrings? This function is used in the following manner...| (...) ...) 2020-03-09T23:16:50Z aeth: That builds in function versioning, too. If you change the function in a way that you need to change its documentation, it's probably best to rename it, anyway, so that old callers use the stable API. Bugfixes do not need to change the documentation. 2020-03-09T23:18:19Z Odin-: That would probably very quickly get about as comprehensible as assembly. 2020-03-09T23:18:40Z Odin-: At the very least about as verbose. 2020-03-09T23:20:54Z entel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-09T23:24:40Z samarth joined #lisp 2020-03-09T23:25:41Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-09T23:26:28Z samarth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T23:27:02Z samarthk joined #lisp 2020-03-09T23:27:38Z aeth: Odin-: At the character level, yes, but not at the token level! 2020-03-09T23:27:53Z aeth: Odin-: But more problematically, with the level of documentation typical to a CL project, too many functions would be named || 2020-03-09T23:29:13Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-03-09T23:29:41Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-09T23:30:15Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-09T23:30:33Z aeth: Or, I suppose more accurately, most CL projects already follow my naming scheme: the function name is the documentation! 2020-03-09T23:34:34Z Odin-: That is true. 2020-03-09T23:34:39Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-03-09T23:40:06Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-09T23:41:55Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-09T23:43:41Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-09T23:47:15Z caltelt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-09T23:48:08Z montxero quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-09T23:48:25Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-09T23:53:15Z montxero joined #lisp 2020-03-09T23:55:33Z hdasch quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-09T23:55:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-09T23:55:57Z hdasch joined #lisp 2020-03-09T23:56:41Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-03-09T23:56:51Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-10T00:06:19Z samarthk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T00:14:59Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-10T00:17:56Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T00:19:51Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-10T00:22:02Z stepnem joined #lisp 2020-03-10T00:24:29Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-10T00:25:55Z cartwright joined #lisp 2020-03-10T00:26:09Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-10T00:26:57Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-10T00:27:05Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-10T00:28:28Z z147_ joined #lisp 2020-03-10T00:28:56Z KDr2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T00:30:06Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-10T00:31:03Z z147 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-10T00:31:18Z z147_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T00:33:03Z slyrus__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-10T00:33:15Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-10T00:34:36Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T00:36:59Z montxero` joined #lisp 2020-03-10T00:39:47Z ebzzry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-10T00:41:24Z montxero quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T00:43:22Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-10T00:44:54Z HiRE: hello everyone 2020-03-10T00:45:02Z Oladon: 'lo HiRE 2020-03-10T00:46:05Z HiRE: I am havin some trouble with CLOS that is probably simple but I cant see what I've done wrong 2020-03-10T00:46:12Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-10T00:46:14Z HiRE: https://hastebin.com/iyilaqozox.rb 2020-03-10T00:46:27Z HiRE: error: 2020-03-10T00:46:30Z HiRE: The generic function 2020-03-10T00:46:30Z HiRE: # 2020-03-10T00:46:30Z HiRE: takes 1 required argument; was asked to find a method with 2020-03-10T00:46:30Z HiRE: specializers (STACK T) 2020-03-10T00:46:30Z HiRE: [Condition of type SB-PCL::FIND-METHOD-LENGTH-MISMATCH] 2020-03-10T00:46:33Z HiRE: See also: 2020-03-10T00:46:35Z HiRE: Common Lisp Hyperspec, FIND-METHOD [:function] 2020-03-10T00:46:44Z HiRE: I guess im missing how im screwing up matching by having `val` 2020-03-10T00:46:59Z HiRE: do I need defgeneric to define the parameter list formally? 2020-03-10T00:47:58Z Oladon: It would seem that you already ran a defgeneric, and defined the generic as taking just one argument. 2020-03-10T00:48:03Z no-defun-allowed: How are you calling PUSH-STACK? 2020-03-10T00:48:09Z no-defun-allowed: Or yeah, maybe that. 2020-03-10T00:48:38Z no-defun-allowed: You also defined an accessor DATA, so why do you use (SLOT-VALUE STACK 'DATA) instead of (DATA STACK)? 2020-03-10T00:48:55Z Josh_2: ^ 2020-03-10T00:49:23Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-10T00:50:55Z HiRE: because im a dummy 2020-03-10T00:51:00Z HiRE: lol 2020-03-10T00:51:04Z HiRE: I am not even calling it 2020-03-10T00:51:07Z HiRE: just loading it into slime 2020-03-10T00:51:11Z HiRE: let me restart my instance and try that 2020-03-10T00:51:16Z HiRE: perhaps I just have an old one lying around 2020-03-10T00:54:21Z Oladon: Any of you done anything with Server-Sent Events, by any chance? I'm trying to figure out what the "right" implementation is supposed to look like from the browser's perspective. 2020-03-10T01:01:10Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-10T01:02:38Z lottaquestions_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-10T01:02:59Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp 2020-03-10T01:04:59Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-10T01:19:57Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-10T01:24:34Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-10T01:26:12Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-10T01:27:52Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T01:33:24Z HiRE: nope, however you may want to ping Xach 2020-03-10T01:51:22Z KDr21 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T01:53:00Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-10T01:57:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T01:57:04Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-10T01:59:16Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-10T02:00:32Z montxero` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-10T02:01:53Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-10T02:07:29Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-03-10T02:27:08Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-03-10T02:33:49Z lxbarbosa joined #lisp 2020-03-10T02:37:00Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T02:39:34Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-10T02:40:51Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T02:45:19Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-03-10T02:45:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T02:46:46Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-10T02:53:06Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-10T02:54:35Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-03-10T03:00:05Z semz joined #lisp 2020-03-10T03:00:05Z semz quit (Changing host) 2020-03-10T03:00:05Z semz joined #lisp 2020-03-10T03:00:47Z caltelt joined #lisp 2020-03-10T03:01:57Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-10T03:04:04Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-10T03:08:39Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-10T03:14:14Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-03-10T03:14:45Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-10T03:15:00Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T03:15:16Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-10T03:19:30Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T03:24:24Z KDr21 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T03:26:00Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-10T03:29:19Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-03-10T03:35:22Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T03:43:12Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-10T03:43:12Z kirkwood joined #lisp 2020-03-10T03:47:54Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2020-03-10T04:01:07Z elderK quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2020-03-10T04:02:49Z caltelt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-10T04:13:55Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-03-10T04:31:56Z choegusung joined #lisp 2020-03-10T04:37:02Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-10T04:38:17Z choegusung joined #lisp 2020-03-10T04:38:58Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-10T04:39:07Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-10T04:46:10Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-10T04:48:36Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-03-10T04:55:58Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-03-10T04:57:56Z choegusung joined #lisp 2020-03-10T04:58:36Z choegusung quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-10T04:59:34Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-10T05:00:07Z choegusung joined #lisp 2020-03-10T05:02:48Z choegusung quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-10T05:04:04Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-03-10T05:04:12Z HiRE: morning beach 2020-03-10T05:04:25Z HiRE: im discovering the wonders of clos 2020-03-10T05:04:36Z semz: good morning, for once a good morning that fits my timezone! 2020-03-10T05:04:50Z beach: HiRE: Great! 2020-03-10T05:04:52Z HiRE: I took a nap for way too long so on a technicality it also fits my life 2020-03-10T05:05:22Z HiRE: im motivated to bring computational geometry stuff to common lisp just to see how far I can push this thing 2020-03-10T05:05:34Z HiRE: the opengl bindings looked pretty performant so getting visuals up should be fun 2020-03-10T05:08:00Z aeth: opengl is performant, if you use a library like static-vectors instead of copying over to CFFI foreign C arrays 2020-03-10T05:08:10Z aeth: It's the difference between instant and minutes if you have enough geometry 2020-03-10T05:09:39Z HiRE: yes - for example I am doing research work in Python at the request of my advisor. The opengl bindings for python are absurdly slow. 2020-03-10T05:09:54Z choegusung joined #lisp 2020-03-10T05:10:16Z aeth: well, Python itself is absurdly slow 2020-03-10T05:11:07Z HiRE: That being said CL will be a hard pitch to him so I can't change that despite the faculty having a few symbolics nerds on staff. 2020-03-10T05:11:26Z HiRE: doesnt mean I can't use it myself though :) 2020-03-10T05:11:30Z aeth: you could write a Python-style syntactic reader macro and see how long it takes people to notice ;-) 2020-03-10T05:12:01Z HiRE: LOL reminds me of totally messing with the TA as an undergrad by abusing the crud out of C's preprocessor 2020-03-10T05:12:51Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-03-10T05:14:33Z choegusung quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-10T05:16:31Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-10T05:18:12Z froggey joined #lisp 2020-03-10T05:18:14Z HiRE: Is there any reason for someone to ever use set or setq? 2020-03-10T05:18:20Z HiRE: it seems like setf works fine for everything 2020-03-10T05:18:53Z beach: Most people these days use only SETF. 2020-03-10T05:19:41Z HiRE: oh so set and setq are sort of antiquated then? 2020-03-10T05:20:29Z beach: Pretty much. 2020-03-10T05:20:42Z HiRE: I'd imagine setf is just another macro that uses those 2020-03-10T05:21:39Z no-defun-allowed: (set symbol expression) may as well be shorthand for (setf (symbol-value symbol) expression), if I'm not mistaken. 2020-03-10T05:22:16Z beach: Did you mean SETQ? 2020-03-10T05:23:06Z beach: And yes, if SYMBOL is a symbol macro, then it is as if SETF had been used instead. 2020-03-10T05:23:35Z beach: Hmm. 2020-03-10T05:23:40Z beach: clhs setq 2020-03-10T05:23:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_setq.htm 2020-03-10T05:24:01Z beach: Apparently, that is true only if the symbol macro was made by SYMBOL-MACROLET. 2020-03-10T05:24:52Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-10T05:24:54Z beach: So not by DEFINE-SYMBOL-MACRO. 2020-03-10T05:24:54Z HiRE: interesting 2020-03-10T05:24:59Z ebrasca: Good morning! 2020-03-10T05:25:12Z beach: Hello ebrasca. 2020-03-10T05:25:36Z HiRE: howdy 2020-03-10T05:26:05Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-10T05:28:28Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-10T05:29:04Z sauvin joined #lisp 2020-03-10T05:33:08Z equwal: Can I use usocket for a file TCP socket rather than host:port? 2020-03-10T05:34:37Z no-defun-allowed: I haven't seen any functions in usocket you can use to create a file socket (and I don't think those obey TCP), but the rest of the operations should work on such a socket if you create one using implementation-specific functions. 2020-03-10T05:35:08Z equwal: I'm trying to use it for gpg-agent pinentry at ~/.gnupg/S.gpg-agent rather than this line of code https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm-contrib/blob/master/util/pinentry/pinentry.lisp#L14 2020-03-10T05:35:36Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-03-10T05:35:42Z equwal: The gpg-agent already makes the socket by default, I just need to connect to it and use it properly. 2020-03-10T05:36:13Z Involuntary joined #lisp 2020-03-10T05:38:43Z equwal: To be fair I'm a bit confused about that. Essentially I think I can use a file socket to remove the need for netcat and usocket as dependencies in that project. 2020-03-10T05:38:51Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-10T05:39:27Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-03-10T05:41:57Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2020-03-10T05:48:09Z Involuntary quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-10T06:03:17Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-10T06:03:40Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-10T06:07:07Z lxbarbosa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-10T06:07:49Z fanta1 joined #lisp 2020-03-10T06:08:09Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-10T06:08:22Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T06:13:26Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-10T06:14:18Z earl-ducaine quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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connection) 2020-03-10T14:03:15Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-10T14:04:39Z housel quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-10T14:06:14Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2020-03-10T14:07:14Z pfdietz: Regret for missing ELS this year is the regret for the reason for missing it. 2020-03-10T14:09:05Z amerlyq quit (Quit: amerlyq) 2020-03-10T14:10:46Z wxie1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-10T14:12:37Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-03-10T14:15:25Z pjb: pfdietz: what about a teleconference? 2020-03-10T14:17:20Z shka_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2020-03-10T14:19:16Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-10T14:19:23Z Bike: they're already talking about that. 2020-03-10T14:19:30Z flamebeard quit 2020-03-10T14:20:18Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-10T14:21:50Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T14:27:11Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-10T14:29:12Z Shinmera: I was already thinking of a streaming setup in case the conference does happen 2020-03-10T14:29:44Z Shinmera: But I'd have to talk that over with Didier, and I have to talk to the venue secretary first anyhow to see what they intend on doing about this mess. 2020-03-10T14:30:05Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T14:30:45Z ebrasca: Shinmera: Do you recomend to do this year to ELS? 2020-03-10T14:31:05Z Shinmera: I'm sorry, I don't understand your question 2020-03-10T14:31:13Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-10T14:31:52Z ebrasca: Shinmera: Do you recomend going this year to ELS? 2020-03-10T14:32:34Z Shinmera: I'm not frantic about the virus, so I do recommend going anyway. 2020-03-10T14:32:55Z Shinmera: However, powers outside my control may decide to force our hands and cancel the conference (travel bans etc.) 2020-03-10T14:33:47Z Shinmera: If that happens you will get a refund for the conference at least. Not sure what hotels or travel agencies would do. 2020-03-10T14:33:51Z pfdietz: Teleconference I would actually do. 2020-03-10T14:35:10Z pfdietz: Shinmera: CDC is now recommending anyone my age avoid long distance air travel. 2020-03-10T14:39:12Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-10T14:39:45Z _death: here, everyone getting back from abroad has to quarantine self at home for 14 days 2020-03-10T14:39:50Z igemnace joined #lisp 2020-03-10T14:39:58Z v_m_v_ joined #lisp 2020-03-10T14:40:09Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T14:40:20Z Shinmera: One thing that's troubling is that the situation could change quite drastically between now and the conference date. 2020-03-10T14:40:27Z Shinmera: Both for better or worse. 2020-03-10T14:40:37Z Shinmera: It's really hard to say what the right call is. 2020-03-10T14:40:43Z igemnace joined #lisp 2020-03-10T14:40:50Z pjb: Shinmera: there are estimations of the evolution, you could guess what the situation will be. 2020-03-10T14:41:22Z _death: yes.. in each country it may be different.. for example, the containment approach leads to prolonged state of non-normality 2020-03-10T14:41:24Z Shinmera: That doesn't tell me anything really. 2020-03-10T14:43:31Z _death: air travel companies also suffer as a result and some may go out of business or radically change their business for the next few years 2020-03-10T14:43:44Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-10T14:43:50Z pjb: Already, Italian people couldn't come to the conference anyways, so it would be good to make it a teleconference. 2020-03-10T14:44:35Z igemnace quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-10T14:44:57Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-10T14:46:51Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T14:48:20Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-10T14:48:21Z pfdietz: Shinmera: it's almost certainly going to become much worse. 2020-03-10T14:48:31Z jmercouris: I didn't realize this channel was #coronavirus 2020-03-10T14:48:42Z pfdietz: Well, it is as related to ELS. 2020-03-10T14:48:56Z v_m_v_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T14:49:02Z splittist: It depends where you are. In Italy it may well get better. Even by the second half of April. 2020-03-10T14:49:38Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-10T14:49:49Z Shinmera: Sure, but it won't help to discuss it here now. Be patient for updates, we are working on figuring it out. 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They may forbid the meeting, or the travel. 2020-03-10T16:16:47Z ebrasca: beach: I am going to try to go this year. 2020-03-10T16:16:58Z beach: I saw that. Sound good. 2020-03-10T16:17:55Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-03-10T16:18:53Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-10T16:20:24Z mangul is now known as shangul 2020-03-10T16:20:43Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-10T16:23:31Z lispdata joined #lisp 2020-03-10T16:34:04Z jcowan: I know at least one technical conference that is allowing tele-attendance this year after years of resisting it, though nothing has been announced about conference fees so far. The conference is organized by a consulting company, so although it is done for the benefit of the community, it has to at least break even. 2020-03-10T16:37:52Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-10T16:38:53Z Ankhers quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-03-10T16:41:49Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-03-10T16:42:37Z Ankhers joined #lisp 2020-03-10T16:45:30Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T16:45:50Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-10T16:46:26Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T16:49:16Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T16:49:38Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-03-10T16:50:58Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T16:51:23Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-10T17:01:11Z gmeister quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4) 2020-03-10T17:03:43Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-10T17:21:43Z LiamH joined #lisp 2020-03-10T17:21:46Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-10T17:22:21Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-03-10T17:22:53Z bradfonseca quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-03-10T17:24:47Z pfdietz: Is Paul Rodriguez ever on this channel? 2020-03-10T17:34:28Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2020-03-10T17:36:59Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-10T17:37:13Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-10T17:37:26Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-03-10T17:44:49Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T17:45:06Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-10T17:46:13Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-10T17:50:16Z dale_ joined #lisp 2020-03-10T17:50:23Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-03-10T17:50:28Z dale_ is now known as dale 2020-03-10T17:52:13Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2020-03-10T17:59:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-10T18:03:36Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2020-03-10T18:04:38Z davsebam1e quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T18:08:13Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.2)) 2020-03-10T18:08:41Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-10T18:13:18Z kbtr quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-10T18:13:36Z kbtr joined #lisp 2020-03-10T18:20:57Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-10T18:23:24Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T18:25:07Z Jesin joined #lisp 2020-03-10T18:25:55Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-10T18:27:29Z p_l: jcowan: I'm starting to ponder about software to do massive online conference kind of stuff 2020-03-10T18:27:39Z p_l: Maybe even a form of hallway track 2020-03-10T18:28:14Z jcowan: I think the issues are that the Internet-as-we-know-it simply isn't any good at handling multi-participant video streams by reason of its structure. 2020-03-10T18:29:29Z amerigo joined #lisp 2020-03-10T18:32:12Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-10T18:32:35Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-10T18:34:13Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-10T18:39:41Z dlowe: it would help if the world weren't divided into client internet and server internet. 2020-03-10T18:40:10Z dlowe: That's not what the internet was designed for, but that's how it turned out. 2020-03-10T18:40:45Z dlowe: Around 2000, people made the mind-blowing discovery that computers could connect... to each other! 2020-03-10T18:41:10Z dlowe: and then we mostly forgot about it 2020-03-10T18:41:28Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-03-10T18:42:32Z phoe: while watching youtube 2020-03-10T18:45:13Z devrtz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-10T18:46:45Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-10T18:46:49Z fanta1 quit (Quit: fanta1) 2020-03-10T18:47:35Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-10T18:47:47Z pfdietz: Cat videos are srs bsns 2020-03-10T18:47:53Z zdm quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2020-03-10T18:51:14Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-10T18:54:27Z devrtz joined #lisp 2020-03-10T18:59:56Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T19:01:36Z zdm joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:02:58Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T19:05:10Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:06:53Z refpga` joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:07:09Z refpga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T19:07:18Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:07:22Z refpga` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T19:08:56Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:09:21Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:10:19Z jackdaniel: they've been made forgotten. marketing p2p as pirate-to-pirate did its job. //sorry for offtopic 2020-03-10T19:11:02Z frgo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-10T19:11:21Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:12:14Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:12:37Z micro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T19:14:16Z micro joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:15:32Z pjb: dlowe: That's the fault of IPv4 and NAT. With IPv6, peer-to-peer can make a come-back. 2020-03-10T19:16:05Z pjb: dlowe: but note that GSM operators have IPv4 networks and NAT for the smart phones… 2020-03-10T19:16:26Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-10T19:17:25Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:17:27Z White_Flame: Tor is nice for true hash-based addressing across the internet, too 2020-03-10T19:18:52Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T19:19:42Z matijja is now known as irk 2020-03-10T19:19:46Z irk is now known as matijja 2020-03-10T19:20:23Z jackdaniel: again, marketed as a criminal network ,) 2020-03-10T19:25:17Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-10T19:33:15Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:34:28Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T19:34:59Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:35:38Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:35:55Z Posterdati: hi 2020-03-10T19:36:21Z Posterdati: is there anyone playing with google kickstart?? 2020-03-10T19:40:21Z p_l: dlowe: throughout 1990s it was known as well 2020-03-10T19:42:10Z dlowe: 1990s very few people had always-on connections. 2020-03-10T19:42:55Z p_l: dlowe: significant portion of the internet till pretty late had, due to exclusivity of internet 2020-03-10T19:43:11Z p_l: So lots of R&D on mbone 2020-03-10T19:44:32Z pilne joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:46:48Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-10T19:47:46Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T19:51:30Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-10T19:54:34Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-10T19:54:39Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-03-10T20:10:06Z lispdata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-10T20:10:12Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-10T20:20:18Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-10T20:21:40Z bhyde joined #lisp 2020-03-10T20:22:08Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-03-10T20:24:58Z Ven`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-10T20:31:55Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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random-nick: it's the fifth bullet point 2020-03-10T22:13:33Z aamukastemato joined #lisp 2020-03-10T22:15:14Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-10T22:16:43Z pjb joined #lisp 2020-03-10T22:21:27Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-10T22:26:46Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-10T22:27:42Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp 2020-03-10T22:28:36Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-03-10T22:30:28Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-10T22:30:57Z asarch: (expt 64 1/2) 2020-03-10T22:31:34Z jackdaniel: 3 2020-03-10T22:32:56Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-10T22:33:08Z pjb joined #lisp 2020-03-10T22:33:21Z asarch: Shouldn't be 8? 2020-03-10T22:33:46Z jackdaniel: I'm sure 8 is a closer answer than 3, but three has a nice tune to it 2020-03-10T22:33:59Z asarch: Good point! 2020-03-10T22:34:06Z no-defun-allowed: To take (sqrt n), make your first guess 1, then compute 1/2*(guess + n/guess) and repeat 2020-03-10T22:34:31Z no-defun-allowed: My first guess thus is 32.5 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Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now) 2020-03-11T04:03:51Z mbrumlow quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-11T04:06:33Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-03-11T04:12:02Z zmt01 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-11T04:13:26Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2020-03-11T04:16:15Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-03-11T04:20:58Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-11T04:22:19Z akoana left #lisp 2020-03-11T04:25:13Z zdm joined #lisp 2020-03-11T04:37:02Z Josh_2: Mornin' beach 2020-03-11T04:39:09Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-11T04:39:22Z matzy_ joined #lisp 2020-03-11T04:39:35Z buffergn0me quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.2)) 2020-03-11T04:40:36Z Nilby joined #lisp 2020-03-11T04:40:45Z matzy_: would anyone be willing to look at this (super-short) lisp program and tell me what I'm doing wrong? My only issue is the "/store_page_view" route 2020-03-11T04:40:55Z matzy_: https://pastebin.com/hkgSmu01 2020-03-11T04:41:27Z matzy_: can you not increate global vars inside router calls like that? 2020-03-11T04:42:21Z beach: Are you sure it is not *content-type* rather than content-type*? 2020-03-11T04:44:59Z beach: Also (setq *page-views* (+ *page-views* 1)) is better expressed as (incf *page-views*), so I guess there is more than one issue. 2020-03-11T04:48:37Z beach: Though perhaps you should say more about what indications you have that you are doing something wrong. 2020-03-11T04:50:11Z beach: I guess I don't know what "increate" means. 2020-03-11T04:50:55Z mbrumlow joined #lisp 2020-03-11T04:53:53Z matzy_: sorry, meant to say increase. i've started learning hunchentoot and wanted to write a simple route that returns to the user how many times they've hit that particular route 2020-03-11T04:56:19Z Nilby: I'm sorry if this is a FAQ, but how can I compile an ASDF system with optimization declarations without permanently changing the global environment or altering the .asd ? Do I have to make a temporary around-compile method or something? 2020-03-11T04:56:19Z minion: Nilby, memo from pjb: read-intern is not enough, you also want to do something with non-symbol tokens. Also, intern comes a little late: we've already split a package name and a symbol name! You want to parse the symbol token earlier. See: readtable-parse-token in https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp-reader/reader.lisp 2020-03-11T04:57:38Z choegusung joined #lisp 2020-03-11T04:58:10Z beach: matzy_: And what is not working about it? 2020-03-11T04:59:09Z matzy_: well actually since i used your incf i was able to load the page without any server errors, but it's also not printing `(format t "~d" *page-views*)` 2020-03-11T04:59:50Z beach: matzy_: You need to tell us what you expected, and what you observed instead. Otherwise, it is very hard to figure out what the problem might be. 2020-03-11T05:00:08Z beach: matzy_: I don't suppose you want us to execute your code and look for ourselves. 2020-03-11T05:01:04Z beach: matzy_: The stream might be buffered. Perhaps you need to use FINISH-OUTPUT. 2020-03-11T05:01:10Z beach: clhs finish-output 2020-03-11T05:01:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm 2020-03-11T05:01:46Z beach: matzy_: Using INCF rather than what you had should not make a difference. 2020-03-11T05:02:23Z matzy_: well i made a global variable *page-views* and set it to 0, then created a route ("store_page_view") that ideally would increment *page-views* each time that route was hit. I kept getting 500 errors until i switched `(setq *page-views* (+ *page-views* 1))` for `(incf *page-views*)` as beach suggested, and now I receive no more server errors but 2020-03-11T05:02:24Z matzy_: don't get the `(format t "~d" *page-views*)` which is supposed to be the last part of the route 2020-03-11T05:03:38Z beach: matzy_: I give up. You still haven't told us what the errors are, and it seems unlikely you are going to. I'll leave you in the capable hands of other #lisp participants. 2020-03-11T05:03:39Z matzy_: hopefully that explains that i was trying to get at 2020-03-11T05:04:39Z matzy_: well ever since switching to incf i don't get 500 errors anymore, i just dont see that final (format t *page-views*) printed on the screen. that's the only remaining issue 2020-03-11T05:04:48Z mbrumlow quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-11T05:05:57Z matzy_: sorry if that's not enough, i thought writing such a route would be fairly simple for learning 2020-03-11T05:10:07Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-03-11T05:10:08Z matzy_: and once i switched to incf i stopped encountering any more errors, besides one network error: "The character encoding of the plain text document was not declared. The document will render with garbled text in some browser configurations if the document contains characters from outside the US-ASCII range. The character encoding of the file needs to 2020-03-11T05:10:09Z matzy_: be declared in the transfer protocol or file needs to use a byte order mark as an encoding signature. store_page_view" 2020-03-11T05:11:34Z matzy_: but before it was all 500 errors, and i dont see why my previous method didnt work. i've done some reading on incf since you mentioned it, and while i kinda get it, i dont know why i went from a 500 error to no breaking errors 2020-03-11T05:11:36Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-11T05:14:24Z matzy_: it's ok though, i'll keep reading through PCL and should be able to figure it out between that and the hunchentoot docs 2020-03-11T05:17:01Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-11T05:18:00Z dale quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep) 2020-03-11T05:19:16Z matzy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-11T05:20:08Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-11T05:20:31Z mbrumlow joined #lisp 2020-03-11T05:21:57Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-11T05:29:49Z mbrumlow quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-11T05:36:13Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-11T05:41:54Z sauvin joined #lisp 2020-03-11T06:15:35Z mbrumlow joined #lisp 2020-03-11T06:26:52Z beach: We should establish some guidelines to authors of ELS paper submissions. It seems I keep repeating the same remarks for every paper I am refereeing. 2020-03-11T06:32:19Z aeth: What remarks do you repeat? 2020-03-11T06:32:36Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-11T06:34:10Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-11T06:35:39Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-11T06:36:53Z beach: People often write descriptive abstracts, but informative abstracts are more appropriate for this kind of work. 2020-03-11T06:37:25Z beach: People use demonstrative pronouns without a following noun phrase, making it ambiguous what is referred to. 2020-03-11T06:37:57Z beach: People use genitive 's or s' with non-proper nouns which makes it harder to see the relevant word. 2020-03-11T06:38:38Z beach: People have a tendency to include dangling participles, which annoys some readers, and the result can be quite humorous (unintentionally, of course). 2020-03-11T06:38:53Z beach: Also misplaced modifiers can be quite hilarious. 2020-03-11T06:38:59Z HiRE: having gotten my first taste of writing conference papers 2020-03-11T06:39:05Z HiRE: writing papers is difficult 2020-03-11T06:39:17Z HiRE: it truly is an art in itself 2020-03-11T06:39:20Z beach: People use URLs in bibliographies, but the bibliography should contain documents that will never change. 2020-03-11T06:39:41Z HiRE: beach, how do you expect people to cite sources that dont have DOIs 2020-03-11T06:39:42Z HiRE: ? 2020-03-11T06:39:53Z beach: I use footnotes for those. 2020-03-11T06:39:59Z HiRE: thats fair 2020-03-11T06:40:06Z beach: They just don't belong in the bibliography. 2020-03-11T06:40:07Z HiRE: also a good idea. 2020-03-11T06:40:31Z HiRE: My advisor allowed me to include urls in my bibliography in my latest paper (there were some foreign papers I referenced that didnt have DOIs) 2020-03-11T06:40:43Z HiRE: but I should suggest to him we place them in footnotes 2020-03-11T06:40:44Z HiRE: that is a good idea. 2020-03-11T06:40:51Z beach: The ACM recommends that you then associate the URL with a date. 2020-03-11T06:41:24Z beach: aeth: Is that enough for starters? 2020-03-11T06:41:57Z HiRE: what a strange situation I've found myself in. Not the right channel but interesting none the less. 2020-03-11T06:42:03Z HiRE: I am connected to IRC talking to you. 2020-03-11T06:42:08Z HiRE: I cannot connect to my router 2020-03-11T06:42:13Z HiRE: via 192.168.1.1 2020-03-11T06:42:24Z HiRE: im a perplexed 2020-03-11T06:42:29Z HiRE: i am* 2020-03-11T06:45:14Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2020-03-11T06:45:19Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-11T06:46:05Z aeth: Well, there are ways to get a "permanent" URL, like archive.org 2020-03-11T06:46:22Z beach: That's fine in the bibliography. 2020-03-11T06:46:34Z beach: What is not fine is a thing that can change over time. 2020-03-11T06:46:37Z beach: aeth: Is that enough for starters? 2020-03-11T06:46:41Z aeth: yes 2020-03-11T06:46:41Z pjb: Nilby: there is no conforming way to determine the current settings of optimization declarations. There may be implementation specific ways. Optimization declarations are basically global, but there's no way to set them dynamically. 2020-03-11T06:46:52Z aeth: beach: Can you elaborate on descriptive vs. informative abstracts? 2020-03-11T06:47:04Z pjb: Nilby: so you have to choose what are your default optimizations level, and you can set them temporarily and reset them once it's done. 2020-03-11T06:47:18Z beach: aeth: Google gives you a good summary. 2020-03-11T06:48:30Z aeth: ah, okay, it's a very standard thing apparently. 2020-03-11T06:48:51Z pjb: Nilby: so you can do: (defparameter *my-default-optimization* '(optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (space 0) (speed 0) (compilation-speed 3))) (proclaim *my-default-optimization*) (unwind-protect (progn (proclaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 0) (space 3) (speed 3) (compilation-speed 0))) (asdf:oos 'asdf:compile-op :your-system)) (proclaim *my-default-optimization*)) 2020-03-11T06:49:20Z beach: aeth: Yes, everything I mentioned is standard. Those are elementary rules of scientific and technical writing. 2020-03-11T06:49:38Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-11T06:50:28Z beach: Here is an example of a misplaced modifier (heard on French TV the other day): "Four months pregnant, the fire fighters drover her to the hospital" 2020-03-11T06:51:41Z karlosz quit (Read error: No route to host) 2020-03-11T06:51:42Z beach: Here is an example of a dangling participle: "Compiling the source code, the file is translated from text to binary" 2020-03-11T06:51:59Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-11T06:54:08Z Nilby: pjb: Thank you for answering. That's what I thought. It doesn't bode well for making a nice compile command. Yet, there must be some way.. since it may be unportable, but proclaim seems to be enclosed in a with-compilation-unit? 2020-03-11T06:55:51Z zdm quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2020-03-11T06:57:00Z pjb: Nilby: The specification of with-compilation-unit doesn't mention proclaim or declaim, and proclaim and declaim don't mention compilation-units. 2020-03-11T06:57:28Z pjb: Nilby: AFAICS, they are two entirely orthogonal concepts. (Agreed, they probably should have not been). 2020-03-11T06:58:27Z pjb: Nilby: also, note that while with-compilation-unit has an implicit PROGN, adding a LOCALLY wouldn't help, since this would work only for lexical declarations, but you want dynamic declarations of optimization… 2020-03-11T06:58:56Z pjb: Nilby: We'd need a TEMPORARILY operator for dynamic declarations… 2020-03-11T06:59:26Z Nilby: I first tried LOCALLY, and was a bit dismayed when it didn't work, 2020-03-11T06:59:38Z Nilby: But SBCL has this :policy option to with-compilation-unit 2020-03-11T07:00:19Z Nilby: which basiclly does what I want 2020-03-11T07:03:20Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-03-11T07:08:20Z mbrumlow quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-11T07:09:26Z mbrumlow joined #lisp 2020-03-11T07:14:02Z Nilby: pjb: Ah ha! it's portably non-portable! see the hack that is (uiop/lisp-build:get-optimization-settings) 2020-03-11T07:14:09Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-11T07:15:11Z pjb: Oh good. I didn't think it was possible in so many implementations. 2020-03-11T07:15:40Z aoh quit (Changing host) 2020-03-11T07:15:40Z aoh joined #lisp 2020-03-11T07:15:48Z Nilby: I thought that it seemed like ASDF did it somehow. 2020-03-11T07:16:20Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2020-03-11T07:25:40Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-11T07:26:32Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-11T07:27:12Z C-Keen joined #lisp 2020-03-11T07:28:59Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-11T07:29:39Z Nilby: with-optimization-settings works nicely. Now I have a nice compile/load command. 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The SBCL column lights up green and all 100%. 2020-03-11T10:14:12Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-11T10:20:05Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-03-11T10:20:22Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-11T10:21:36Z z0d: nice TLD 2020-03-11T10:24:05Z Shinmera: Yeah, thanks, Chile 2020-03-11T10:24:10Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-11T10:26:55Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-03-11T10:29:19Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-11T10:30:24Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-11T10:31:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-11T10:38:58Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-11T10:41:05Z chrpape: Nice, thx! 2020-03-11T10:44:38Z fookara quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T10:53:49Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-11T10:54:36Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-11T10:56:13Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-11T10:56:24Z natpd joined #lisp 2020-03-11T10:57:58Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2020-03-11T10:59:26Z zdm joined #lisp 2020-03-11T11:00:45Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-03-11T11:02:28Z v_m_v_ joined #lisp 2020-03-11T11:05:14Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-11T11:05:46Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-11T11:10:25Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-11T11:10:55Z v_m_v_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-11T11:11:48Z v_m_v_ joined #lisp 2020-03-11T11:13:55Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-03-11T11:14:35Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-11T11:15:15Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-11T11:24:25Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-11T11:27:55Z KDr22 joined #lisp 2020-03-11T11:28:08Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2020-03-11T11:29:28Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-11T11:30:06Z KDr21 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-11T11:31:10Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-11T11:34:02Z amerlyq quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-11T11:36:36Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-11T11:39:53Z shangul left #lisp 2020-03-11T11:39:56Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2020-03-11T11:53:05Z gko_ joined #lisp 2020-03-11T11:56:51Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-11T11:57:41Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-03-11T11:59:05Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-11T11:59:49Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T12:01:19Z yangby joined #lisp 2020-03-11T12:02:12Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-03-11T12:02:45Z yangby quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-11T12:04:06Z natpd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T12:06:29Z aindilis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-11T12:08:02Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-11T12:09:38Z aindilis joined #lisp 2020-03-11T12:10:18Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-11T12:10:27Z pjb: Shinmera: shouldn't that be portabilidad.cl rather? 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Most of it? 2020-03-11T13:59:36Z lucasb joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:00:18Z oni-on-ion: i have to disable Dark Mode to see the colors 2020-03-11T14:00:40Z Bike: some of them could probably be defined but might need to use unexported interfaces 2020-03-11T14:00:58Z Bike: like dissect and maybe trivial-cltl2 2020-03-11T14:01:03Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T14:01:25Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:01:56Z Bike: with-current-source-form, extensible-sequences, static-vectors, global-vars.... that's all stuff that an implementation is probably going to advertise if it implements, so it's probalby nto implemented in the reds 2020-03-11T14:02:20Z penguwin quit (Quit: NO CARRIER) 2020-03-11T14:02:37Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:02:59Z penguwin joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:08:46Z Shinmera: pfdietz: As far as I know a lot is on both sides. A lot of implementation features are also there, but not documented or 'officially supported' so the library doesn't have it included. 2020-03-11T14:08:50Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:09:05Z Shinmera: The percentages are also all very approximate right now, as I lack the time to do a thorough audit of supported features. 2020-03-11T14:09:18Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:11:36Z oni-on-ion: what is the *? 2020-03-11T14:13:04Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:13:54Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-11T14:15:32Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-11T14:19:07Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-11T14:23:58Z vms14 joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:29:12Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T14:29:25Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:34:01Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:36:20Z phoe: mouseover above it and read the alt-text 2020-03-11T14:36:51Z pierpal joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:38:31Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:38:39Z Xach: ahh. i looked at it on my phone. 2020-03-11T14:39:14Z liljanus joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:39:54Z liljanus quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-11T14:42:09Z oni-on-ion: phoe, ah, thanks. (no mouse) 2020-03-11T14:44:02Z matzy_ joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:44:10Z sarna quit (Quit: bye) 2020-03-11T14:47:40Z matzy_: how does one install a quicklisp package for a specific project? right now i'm just calling `(ql:quickload :my-package), but is that the proper way to do it? or should it be handled like npm packages, where you install the package project-wide, and then just call it in the files where it's needed? 2020-03-11T14:50:34Z jmercouris: matzy_: do you have an ASDF file? 2020-03-11T14:52:28Z sarna joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:56:50Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-11T14:58:17Z JohnMS_WORK quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2020-03-11T14:58:40Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-11T15:00:02Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T15:04:53Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-03-11T15:08:52Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-11T15:11:37Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-03-11T15:12:12Z zdm joined #lisp 2020-03-11T15:14:32Z matzy_82 joined #lisp 2020-03-11T15:14:40Z matzy_82: jmercouris sorry for the late reply - no- i do not 2020-03-11T15:15:13Z matzy_82: i've been working through PCL, but quicklisp vs asdf still confuses me 2020-03-11T15:15:15Z jmercouris: matzy_82: the you will want to make one and specify your dependencies there 2020-03-11T15:15:16Z matzy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-11T15:15:27Z jmercouris: matzy_82: let me give you a link to a very simple example 2020-03-11T15:15:31Z splittist: matzy_82: you should. QL uses ASDF. 2020-03-11T15:15:40Z jmercouris: matzy_82: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/cl-webengine 2020-03-11T15:16:00Z matzy_82: jmercouris that would be super helpful, thanks 2020-03-11T15:16:03Z jmercouris: matzy_82: you basically just list your lisp files, and how they depend on each other, and what other system dependencies there are 2020-03-11T15:16:04Z splittist: matzy_82: to be slightly meta, you could also use quickproject ( https://www.xach.com/lisp/quickproject/ ) 2020-03-11T15:16:10Z jmercouris: oh yeah, that's another good idea 2020-03-11T15:16:27Z jmercouris: matzy_82: look at .asd files in other projects to get more ideas 2020-03-11T15:16:48Z jmercouris: matzy_82: then place your whole system in a place that quicklisp can find it, local projects is a good one, then $lisp, (ql:quickload :my-system) 2020-03-11T15:17:49Z matzy_82: so do you write your asdf file from scratch? 2020-03-11T15:18:35Z matzy_82: and if i use quickproject, what if I come across other dependencies I need that I didnt think of initially when doing the initial :depends-on? 2020-03-11T15:19:00Z jmercouris: matzy_82: usually, yes 2020-03-11T15:19:08Z jmercouris: matzy_82: you'll just add them 2020-03-11T15:19:12Z jmercouris: the format is meant to be human readable/editable 2020-03-11T15:19:12Z splittist: you just edit and add. Remember that when you ql:quickload something during development to also add that dependency to the asd 2020-03-11T15:20:03Z matzy_82: this is really helpful, thank you both 2020-03-11T15:20:28Z jmercouris: no problem, good luck 2020-03-11T15:23:46Z matzy_ joined #lisp 2020-03-11T15:23:49Z matzy_: ugh i keep getting kicked off 2020-03-11T15:23:51Z matzy_: but in the cl-webengine project, how did you know what to put for all those constants? 2020-03-11T15:23:58Z jmercouris: which constants? 2020-03-11T15:24:09Z matzy_: (asdf:defsystem :cl-webengine :description "An FFI binding to WebEngine in Qt." :author "Atlas Engineer LLC" :licence "BSD 3-Clause" :version "0.0" :serial t :components ((:module "source" :components ((:file "package") (:file "interface")))) :depends-on (:cffi)) 2020-03-11T15:24:16Z matzy_82 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-11T15:24:18Z matzy_: ugh sorry should've used pastebin 2020-03-11T15:24:20Z jmercouris: author can be anything, description can be anything 2020-03-11T15:24:27Z jmercouris: license can be anything, as can version 2020-03-11T15:24:36Z matzy_: oh wow ok 2020-03-11T15:24:37Z jcowan left #lisp 2020-03-11T15:24:44Z jmercouris: serial is the simplest type of loading, the files will just be loaded in order 2020-03-11T15:24:47Z matzy_: so you can just fill in anything for those fields basically 2020-03-11T15:24:47Z jmercouris: I suggest that for a beginner 2020-03-11T15:24:53Z jmercouris: yes, you can 2020-03-11T15:25:00Z jmercouris: and then the :depends-on is just a list of dependencies 2020-03-11T15:25:11Z matzy_: that's kinda weird lol 2020-03-11T15:25:25Z matzy_: so what that dependency depends on? 2020-03-11T15:25:37Z jmercouris: it is saying that cl-webengine depends on :cffi 2020-03-11T15:25:43Z jmercouris: the order is irrelevant there 2020-03-11T15:26:02Z matzy_: why isnt cffi defined in your asdf file? 2020-03-11T15:26:16Z matzy_: its a package too, right? 2020-03-11T15:26:30Z jmercouris: CFFI is a system 2020-03-11T15:26:37Z jmercouris: it is not mine, it is someone elses 2020-03-11T15:26:40Z jmercouris: it is a dependency 2020-03-11T15:26:50Z jmercouris: I could have put :alexandria there, or whatever 2020-03-11T15:26:53Z jmercouris: and it would have loaded it 2020-03-11T15:27:46Z matzy_: interesting. ok, just making sure, so cl-webengine isnt something you wrote yourself, it's something one could fine on quicklisp 2020-03-11T15:27:57Z matzy_: *find 2020-03-11T15:28:02Z jmercouris: yes it is 2020-03-11T15:28:05Z jmercouris: I wrote cl-webengine 2020-03-11T15:28:13Z matzy_: ohhh ol 2020-03-11T15:28:18Z matzy_: *ok 2020-03-11T15:28:19Z jmercouris: quicklisp can install your OWN projects as well as REMOTE projects 2020-03-11T15:28:20Z jmercouris: from a repository 2020-03-11T15:28:26Z jmercouris: "install" is a nebulous term here 2020-03-11T15:28:31Z matzy_: got it 2020-03-11T15:28:33Z jmercouris: it doesn't really make much sense, but I am trying to use normal words 2020-03-11T15:29:06Z matzy_: no this is the best explanation i've gotten so far 2020-03-11T15:29:13Z matzy_: i really appreciate your time 2020-03-11T15:29:17Z jmercouris: no worries 2020-03-11T15:29:26Z jmercouris: feel free to message me privately if you wish to avoid flooding the channel 2020-03-11T15:29:55Z matzy_: so if i want to use some package on quicklisp, i need to put it in the asdf file, and then quickload it when i need it in a file 2020-03-11T15:30:09Z jmercouris: yes, i believe so 2020-03-11T15:30:17Z jmercouris: so let's say you want to use alexandria 2020-03-11T15:30:29Z jmercouris: you would put it into your asd file, and then quickload your project, and it would load alexandria for you 2020-03-11T15:30:56Z phoe: matzy_: there's two different things - packages, and systems 2020-03-11T15:31:01Z phoe: they're kinda orthogonal to each other 2020-03-11T15:31:19Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T15:31:20Z jmercouris: a system is just a collection of lisp files, think of it that way 2020-03-11T15:31:22Z phoe: a package is a collection of Lisp symbols that exposes some functionality 2020-03-11T15:31:34Z phoe: a system is a collection of Lisp files that are loaded together to implement some functionality 2020-03-11T15:31:54Z phoe: a package can be modified by multiple systems, a system can have multiple packages 2020-03-11T15:31:54Z matzy_: so is huchentoot a system or package? 2020-03-11T15:31:58Z phoe: both! 2020-03-11T15:32:00Z jmercouris: thats where the confusion is 2020-03-11T15:32:01Z phoe: that's a part of the confusion 2020-03-11T15:32:03Z jmercouris: often they use the same name 2020-03-11T15:32:08Z splittist: matzy_: One approach. 1. Have an idea and give it a cool name. 2. Create a new directory in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ called 'coolname' 2. Add a coolname.asd, package.lisp, README.md and coolname.lisp to that directory 3. Do whatever gittery you like on the coolname directory. 4. ql:quickload "coolname" 5. profit. 2020-03-11T15:32:11Z jmercouris: they could have named their system potato, and made a package carrot 2020-03-11T15:32:15Z phoe: there is a system named "hunchentoot" that contains the definition for the package "hunchentoot" 2020-03-11T15:32:28Z jmercouris: but they usually name the project and system potato, as well as the package 2020-03-11T15:32:34Z phoe: if you (ql:quickload :hunchentoot), the system is loaded; in effect, a package is created and populated with all the code stuffs of hunchentoot 2020-03-11T15:32:41Z jmercouris: so you would (ql:quickload :potato) and then (potato:grow) 2020-03-11T15:32:55Z jmercouris: but it could just as well be (ql:quickload :potato) and then (carrot:grow) 2020-03-11T15:32:56Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-03-11T15:33:03Z matzy_: this is clearing up so many of my questions 2020-03-11T15:33:08Z aindilis joined #lisp 2020-03-11T15:33:09Z matzy_: you guys are freaking awesome 2020-03-11T15:33:19Z matzy_: i cant thank you enough for taking the time to explain all this 2020-03-11T15:33:46Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-11T15:33:46Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-03-11T15:34:08Z matzy_: my first try at a common lisp project is to build a simple api that handles GET and POSTs and sends back JSON to a react front-end 2020-03-11T15:34:10Z jmercouris: maybe you write a tutorial for newcomers :-) 2020-03-11T15:34:29Z phoe: matzy_: that's doable, yes 2020-03-11T15:34:32Z matzy_: if i ever get this 100% down i honestly will 2020-03-11T15:34:39Z phoe: I've never done much web stuff in Lisp, but there's people who do that 2020-03-11T15:34:44Z amerlyq quit (Quit: amerlyq) 2020-03-11T15:34:48Z phoe: matzy_: /join #lispweb 2020-03-11T15:34:49Z jmercouris: I've done a lot of web stuff in Lisp 2020-03-11T15:34:57Z phoe: also /join #clschool if you haven't done that yet 2020-03-11T15:35:06Z jmercouris: I suggest simply loading caveman2, https://github.com/fukamachi/caveman 2020-03-11T15:35:15Z jmercouris: the README is more than enough to get you started 2020-03-11T15:35:35Z matzy_: just joined both groups, thanks for the recommemdatinso 2020-03-11T15:36:42Z matzy_: i have a meeting to run to, but that you all for explaining this to me. i'm literally going to save our entire conversation so i read through it several times and hopefully grok it sooner or later 2020-03-11T15:36:50Z matzy_: *thank you all 2020-03-11T15:37:31Z phoe: matzy_: no need to 2020-03-11T15:37:34Z phoe: this channel is logged 2020-03-11T15:37:48Z phoe: see the topic for the channel logs if you want to read stuff later 2020-03-11T15:39:43Z matzy_: can you do that through the webchat.freenode.net site? 2020-03-11T15:40:25Z jmercouris: see the topic 2020-03-11T15:40:34Z jmercouris: you can view it here: https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp 2020-03-11T15:41:17Z matzy_: you guys are amazing 2020-03-11T15:41:26Z matzy_: thank you again so much 2020-03-11T15:42:18Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-11T15:42:32Z jmercouris: no problem 2020-03-11T15:42:40Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T15:43:09Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-11T15:43:36Z zooey_ joined #lisp 2020-03-11T15:43:46Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-11T15:44:31Z sysz joined #lisp 2020-03-11T15:46:03Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-11T15:46:42Z sysz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-11T15:54:05Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-03-11T15:54:52Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-11T15:58:29Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-11T15:59:05Z pfdietz: asd files can be written from scratch, or you can use package-inferred-system, which automates a lot of the dependencies. Not everyone likes the restrictions this places on the system, though. 2020-03-11T15:59:14Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-11T15:59:35Z phoe: or you can (ql:quickload :quickproject) for a simple project skeleton 2020-03-11T16:01:27Z Nilby joined #lisp 2020-03-11T16:03:19Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-11T16:04:02Z davepdot_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-11T16:04:06Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-11T16:05:07Z Fade joined #lisp 2020-03-11T16:05:18Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-11T16:06:31Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-11T16:09:42Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-11T16:11:35Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-11T16:12:07Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T16:12:28Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-11T16:14:30Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-11T16:14:39Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-11T16:18:00Z v_m_v_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-11T16:22:16Z dale__ joined #lisp 2020-03-11T16:22:21Z dale__ is now known as dale 2020-03-11T16:25:30Z vms14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T16:27:19Z asarch: (if t t (not t)) 2020-03-11T16:28:06Z beach: ? 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Anywhere.) 2020-03-11T19:31:42Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T19:35:44Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-03-11T19:35:49Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-11T19:36:28Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-03-11T19:39:45Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2020-03-11T19:46:47Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-11T19:50:19Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-11T19:53:13Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-11T19:53:56Z easye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T19:54:46Z Lycurgus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T19:55:11Z Jesin joined #lisp 2020-03-11T19:55:15Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-11T19:55:42Z easye joined #lisp 2020-03-11T19:57:53Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-03-11T19:58:19Z Lord_of_Life_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-11T20:06:28Z lottaquestions_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-03-11T20:11:35Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-11T20:12:43Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-11T20:13:34Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-11T20:16:34Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-11T20:19:05Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T20:19:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-11T20:25:49Z isposdef joined #lisp 2020-03-11T20:27:11Z rpg joined #lisp 2020-03-11T20:27:40Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: you there? 2020-03-11T20:30:07Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-11T20:46:46Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T20:47:15Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-03-11T20:52:30Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-11T20:54:09Z fe[nl]ix: yes 2020-03-11T20:58:04Z Fade: o/ 2020-03-11T20:58:05Z marian` joined #lisp 2020-03-11T20:58:08Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-03-11T20:59:56Z pfdietz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T21:01:02Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-03-11T21:01:39Z rpg: @fe[nl]ix: Have you any wisdom about dividing CL jobs on Travis with shared builds? I have a test suite for the github.com://shop-planner/shop3 system that runs very long, so I smashed it into a bunch of sub jobs to avoid time-outs. But it is stupid and wasteful of me to repeat the builds over and over, just so I can do a lot of different tests. 2020-03-11T21:03:25Z fe[nl]ix: switch to a paying plan and you get longer timeouts 2020-03-11T21:03:31Z fe[nl]ix: fancier solutions are not worth the time 2020-03-11T21:03:54Z fe[nl]ix: the default timeout is barely sufficient for testing small libraries 2020-03-11T21:04:10Z fe[nl]ix: which I guess is indented 2020-03-11T21:04:25Z rpg: oh, thanks! I was just wondering if there was any way to have multiple elements of the matrix share a single built lisp image. 2020-03-11T21:05:57Z fe[nl]ix: I think they have some way to setup an artifact cache 2020-03-11T21:06:43Z rpg: Yes, there is a cache, but they don't explain its function well. Really, I hate to complain about a group that's doing so much for the community, but the Travis docs are really terrible. 2020-03-11T21:07:45Z fe[nl]ix: https://github.com/google/syzkaller/commit/0a8d1a965a65f2d6cc93d1180443f5ad658919b1 2020-03-11T21:08:30Z fe[nl]ix: try adding ~/.cache/common-lisp there and see what happens 2020-03-11T21:09:06Z rpg: Thanks! I'll do that! 2020-03-11T21:09:21Z rpg: I'll report back if it works. 2020-03-11T21:09:45Z rpg: seems like moving the build into `before_install` might also be important. 2020-03-11T21:13:14Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-11T21:15:00Z rpg: @fe[nl]ix: Actually, it looks like the cache is intended to help Travis between runs, instead of within a single one, judging from https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/caching/ 2020-03-11T21:16:21Z fe[nl]ix: yes 2020-03-11T21:16:24Z rpg: That's probably right, because a cache could get into trouble -- ASDF is not concurrency-safe. 2020-03-11T21:16:27Z fe[nl]ix: I think I misunderstood you 2020-03-11T21:16:32Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-11T21:16:39Z gareppa joined #lisp 2020-03-11T21:16:43Z fe[nl]ix: you want to parallelize the test suite, then ? 2020-03-11T21:16:44Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-11T21:17:10Z rpg: What I have is about 12 jobs for each of two configurations (SBCL and CCL). So it would be nice to only build the two configurations once. 2020-03-11T21:17:14Z Guest89866 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-11T21:18:09Z fe[nl]ix: maybe someone here knows better 2020-03-11T21:18:14Z fe[nl]ix: I've never tried that 2020-03-11T21:19:09Z rpg: Thanks for the help, though -- I was able to use your CIM setup and get my tests running successfully. Now I'm just trying to make things a little better. 2020-03-11T21:22:06Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-11T21:23:48Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-03-11T21:41:44Z rpg: Going now, but thanks again -- that setup information was super helpful! 2020-03-11T21:41:49Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2020-03-11T21:45:17Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7) 2020-03-11T21:47:07Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-11T21:47:34Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-11T21:48:54Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-03-11T21:49:48Z aeth: Okay, so if my connection drops when Quicklisp is updating, it freezes the download. And then if I cancel that, Quicklisp thinks that I'm on the latest dist and winds up in this broken in-between state. 2020-03-11T21:50:02Z aeth: This has had to have happened to someone before. How do you get Quicklisp to realize that it's not correct? 2020-03-11T21:51:19Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-03-11T21:51:44Z Shinmera: It's not in a broken state. 2020-03-11T21:51:53Z Shinmera: It will download packages on demand 2020-03-11T21:52:19Z Shinmera: The only reason it downloads updates of installed packages when you do a dist update is because it's convenient. 2020-03-11T21:52:39Z aeth: It is in a broken state. Warning (initialization): An error occurred while loading ‘/home/michael/.emacs’: File is missing: Cannot open load file, No such file or directory, slime-autoloads 2020-03-11T21:52:59Z aeth: And M-x slime no longer works 2020-03-11T21:53:17Z Shinmera: Open the repl not in slime, quickload the slime helper. 2020-03-11T21:53:33Z Shinmera: Slime breaking does not mean quicklisp is broken. 2020-03-11T21:54:37Z aeth: okay, you're right, it's just the slime helper that broke 2020-03-11T21:55:04Z housel: top 2020-03-11T21:55:11Z housel: sorry, wrong window 2020-03-11T21:57:08Z Bike quit (Quit: Bike) 2020-03-11T21:59:26Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-11T22:12:25Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-11T22:14:46Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-03-11T22:16:51Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-11T22:17:16Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-11T22:17:35Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-03-11T22:20:23Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-03-11T22:21:17Z asarch 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Unless it's under something else. 2020-03-12T00:14:43Z fe[nl]ix: aeth: for unicode there's Babel 2020-03-12T00:14:53Z aeth: fe[nl]ix: different 2020-03-12T00:15:41Z Bike: yeah, does babel do normalization and stuff? 2020-03-12T00:15:49Z aeth: sb-unicode has stuff like math-p, whitespace-p, normalized-p, etc. 2020-03-12T00:15:57Z aeth: Stuff you'd want in e.g. a regex engine 2020-03-12T00:16:19Z aeth: Also, on characters, assuming characters are unicode. 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2020-03-12T12:33:41Z Caractacus joined #lisp 2020-03-12T12:34:06Z paule32: hello 2020-03-12T12:34:21Z Caractacus: Hi there 2020-03-12T12:34:36Z paule32: i have a structure, how can i access it via "prompted input from user" ? 2020-03-12T12:34:42Z paule32: http://dpaste.com/0F9277D 2020-03-12T12:35:11Z jmercouris: access a value from the struct? 2020-03-12T12:35:23Z paule32: yes 2020-03-12T12:35:30Z jmercouris: (sentence-der struct) 2020-03-12T12:35:58Z paule32: thx, try out ... 2020-03-12T12:37:53Z paule32: ok, thx, works 2020-03-12T12:38:09Z jmercouris: no problem 2020-03-12T12:38:13Z Caractacus: Do people here participate in the lisp game jam or is that a different channel? 2020-03-12T12:38:21Z jackdaniel: Caractacus: try #lispgames 2020-03-12T12:38:29Z Caractacus: fab thanks :) 2020-03-12T12:38:29Z jackdaniel: there is overlap between members of both channels 2020-03-12T12:38:41Z jackdaniel: but lispgames is not limited to common lisp 2020-03-12T12:39:00Z Caractacus: Clojure and Scheme too I guess? 2020-03-12T12:39:07Z jackdaniel: yes 2020-03-12T12:39:38Z Caractacus: THanks :) 2020-03-12T12:39:44Z jackdaniel: sure 2020-03-12T12:41:34Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T12:42:34Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-12T12:42:58Z aamukastemato quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-12T12:43:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-03-12T12:45:10Z shka_: hello! 2020-03-12T12:45:27Z shka_: i am having small, but annoying problem with slime REPL 2020-03-12T12:46:18Z shka_: it scroll to much after evaluating any expression, hiding both the input and the printed result 2020-03-12T12:46:28Z shka_: i would like to fix this, but i don't know how 2020-03-12T12:47:00Z jmercouris: I would start by first clearing your lisp init file and running in emacs -q, see if problem still exists 2020-03-12T12:47:08Z jmercouris: then introduce emacs config, then lisp config, and see which one causes issues 2020-03-12T12:47:38Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-12T12:48:01Z shka_: hmmm, ok, i hoped for immediate solution, i will try to debug it later, after work 2020-03-12T12:48:14Z shka_: thanks for your suggestion though 2020-03-12T12:48:37Z jackdaniel: shka_: that's too few details to know what's going on with your emacs 2020-03-12T12:48:58Z shka_: yes, you are right i guess… 2020-03-12T12:49:14Z hhdave joined #lisp 2020-03-12T12:49:38Z jmercouris: I'm sorry, i've never seen it before or I would have said how so 2020-03-12T12:49:48Z shka_: i can't dive into this at the moment, but i appreciate your response 2020-03-12T12:52:10Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-12T12:55:21Z luni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T13:01:11Z pmden quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2020-03-12T13:08:09Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T13:09:00Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-12T13:16:27Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-12T13:18:45Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-12T13:26:36Z mmontone joined #lisp 2020-03-12T13:26:44Z mmontone: hello! 2020-03-12T13:26:45Z h11 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2020-03-12T13:27:28Z Bike: sup. 2020-03-12T13:27:29Z mmontone: is there any way of compiling an ASDF system from SLIME, and get a buffer with all clickable WARNINGS, and STYLE-WARNINGS ? 2020-03-12T13:27:36Z mmontone: so I can navigate them and fix them? 2020-03-12T13:28:26Z mmontone: I know I can get that for a single file with M-x slime-compile-file 2020-03-12T13:28:33Z mmontone: but I want that for a whole ASDF system 2020-03-12T13:28:51Z scymtym: after M-x slime-load-system (or M-x slime-reload-system if the system has already been compiled) the buffer *slime-compilation* should contain exactly that 2020-03-12T13:28:55Z xristos quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2020-03-12T13:29:04Z mmontone: oh. I'll look.. thanks 2020-03-12T13:29:09Z jackdaniel: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/ASDF.html 2020-03-12T13:29:18Z scymtym: (in addition to highlighting in open buffers) 2020-03-12T13:29:30Z Bike: huh, that's good to know 2020-03-12T13:29:38Z Shinmera: Man that'll come in handy 2020-03-12T13:29:48Z mmontone: scymtym you are right. thanks! 2020-03-12T13:29:49Z jackdaniel throws confetti 2020-03-12T13:30:24Z mmontone: how didn't I know about that ... 2020-03-12T13:33:22Z phoe: TIL 2020-03-12T13:33:50Z jackdaniel throws more confetti 2020-03-12T13:33:50Z phoe: that's amazing stuff and I seriously wonder why slime doesn't hook that straight into QL:QUICKLOAD and/or ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM 2020-03-12T13:34:23Z phoe: that would come in handy 2020-03-12T13:34:30Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2020-03-12T13:34:48Z jackdaniel: what do you mean by "hook into"? 2020-03-12T13:36:31Z mmontone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T13:38:18Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-03-12T13:39:25Z mmontone joined #lisp 2020-03-12T13:39:50Z zdm joined #lisp 2020-03-12T13:40:20Z joast joined #lisp 2020-03-12T13:47:04Z Caractacus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T13:47:39Z mingus quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-03-12T13:52:47Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-12T13:57:51Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:02:47Z Duuqnd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-12T14:02:57Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-12T14:03:45Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:04:50Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-12T14:05:06Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:05:25Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-12T14:07:41Z phoe: I imagine it would be useful for me to have the compilation buffer pop up when I issue a (ql:quickload :foo) and any warnings are found 2020-03-12T14:09:01Z Bike: how would you accomplish that? some kind of advice around the function? 2020-03-12T14:09:13Z Bike: compile-file is the same way, you know, it doesn't pop open a buffer 2020-03-12T14:09:58Z Shinmera: swank could install a method somewhere in ASDF. 2020-03-12T14:10:03Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:10:45Z Bike: and probably you'd want to not pop up a buffer if some code loaded a system 2020-03-12T14:11:12Z Kuiydiy joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:11:49Z jmercouris: I think that would be very annoying 2020-03-12T14:12:15Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:15:14Z EvW1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-12T14:17:08Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:17:30Z oxum_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T14:18:05Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:18:55Z Kuiydiy left #lisp 2020-03-12T14:20:13Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-12T14:23:04Z xristos joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:31:46Z KDr22 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T14:31:56Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T14:33:19Z KDr22 joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:36:01Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:36:56Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:38:55Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-12T14:42:17Z gko_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:43:47Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T14:44:22Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:45:30Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-12T14:46:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:47:02Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-12T14:47:49Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-12T14:51:39Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-12T14:56:36Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T14:58:19Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-12T15:00:45Z amerlyq quit (Quit: amerlyq) 2020-03-12T15:05:35Z v_m_v_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T15:08:46Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-12T15:09:14Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2020-03-12T15:12:36Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-03-12T15:16:24Z smazga joined #lisp 2020-03-12T15:16:50Z smazga quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-12T15:21:07Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-12T15:25:06Z h11 joined #lisp 2020-03-12T15:27:02Z v_m_v_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-12T15:37:47Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-12T15:39:46Z LiamH joined #lisp 2020-03-12T15:42:52Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-12T15:43:15Z efm quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-03-12T15:48:35Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T15:48:48Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-12T15:50:46Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-03-12T15:53:52Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-12T15:56:48Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-03-12T15:58:43Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-12T15:59:29Z even4void quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-12T16:01:03Z caleb-allen joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:01:14Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:02:29Z even4void quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-12T16:02:31Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-12T16:02:56Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:03:12Z even4void quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-12T16:03:38Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-12T16:04:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:05:40Z mangul quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-12T16:08:28Z whiteline_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:09:23Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-12T16:09:24Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T16:09:50Z markoong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T16:10:01Z madage joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:10:25Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-12T16:11:26Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:11:50Z splittist: Is there an easy way to tell what slime-fancy loads? 2020-03-12T16:12:39Z Bike: if you look at slime-fancy.el it's just the list of dependencies, no? 2020-03-12T16:13:04Z montaropdf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-03-12T16:13:13Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:14:39Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:16:02Z Bike: Shinmera: Colleen doesn't seem to be logging #sbcl 2020-03-12T16:17:23Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-12T16:18:42Z froggey joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:19:50Z mason joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:22:20Z splittist: Bike: true. Thanks. 2020-03-12T16:22:37Z Shinmera: Bike: Fixed. Sorry about that. 2020-03-12T16:22:50Z Shinmera: Turns out making a stable IRC client is beyond my capabilities 2020-03-12T16:23:00Z caleb-allen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T16:23:09Z caleb-allen joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:24:01Z metallicus joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:24:05Z metallicus quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-12T16:26:29Z shangul quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-12T16:29:47Z v_m_v_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:29:53Z scymtym: Shinmera: don't worry. thanks for doing the logging for everyone 2020-03-12T16:33:24Z matzy_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:38:27Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-12T16:38:51Z isposdef joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:41:17Z v_m_v_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T16:44:03Z isposdef quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T16:46:48Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-12T16:50:02Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-12T16:52:20Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:52:42Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T16:58:45Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-12T17:00:29Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-12T17:01:08Z gmeister quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4) 2020-03-12T17:07:36Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-12T17:08:30Z caleb-allen quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-03-12T17:09:04Z caleb-allen joined #lisp 2020-03-12T17:12:53Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-12T17:13:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-12T17:15:24Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-03-12T17:16:50Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-12T17:16:54Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-12T17:22:13Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-12T17:23:26Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-12T17:25:54Z davepdot_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-12T17:28:59Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-12T17:30:52Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-12T17:31:01Z caleb-allen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T17:31:14Z caleb-allen joined #lisp 2020-03-12T17:33:11Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-12T17:33:16Z mmontone quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-12T17:34:31Z oxum_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-12T17:35:01Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2020-03-12T17:37:34Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T17:38:20Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-12T17:38:52Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T17:39:39Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-12T17:42:51Z davepdotorg quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-12T17:42:52Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3-dev) 2020-03-12T17:45:38Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-12T17:47:36Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T17:50:16Z slyrus__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-12T17:55:24Z KDr22 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T17:58:02Z KDr22 joined #lisp 2020-03-12T17:58:10Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:00:01Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:01:06Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-12T18:01:15Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:02:25Z luni joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:02:28Z narimiran_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:02:35Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-12T18:03:49Z zulu_inuoe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-12T18:04:26Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-12T18:07:14Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:09:10Z asarch: How could I use C code in Common Lisp? ASDF? 2020-03-12T18:09:46Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/ 2020-03-12T18:09:48Z jackdaniel: asarch: cffi 2020-03-12T18:09:55Z asarch: Thannk you! 2020-03-12T18:09:57Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:10:21Z asarch: Thank you very much guys! 2020-03-12T18:12:41Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:12:56Z asarch realizes now why the GTK+ 3.x port in Common Lisp is called: cl-CFFI-gtk 2020-03-12T18:13:11Z jackdaniel: w porę w czas 2020-03-12T18:13:37Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:13:45Z asarch: D'oh! 2020-03-12T18:16:01Z oni-on-ion: ah? i tried cl-webkit2 the other day. cant remember the name of the gtk it pulled from ql =) 2020-03-12T18:16:02Z slyrus__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-12T18:16:16Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:16:37Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-12T18:25:42Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:27:06Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-12T18:29:13Z aamukastemato joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:33:47Z Necktwi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-12T18:33:58Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:35:40Z vhost- joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:35:40Z vhost- quit (Changing host) 2020-03-12T18:35:40Z vhost- joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:40:34Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:40:43Z caleb-allen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T18:40:58Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-12T18:41:15Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-12T18:41:46Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-12T18:44:32Z narimiran_ is now known as narimiran 2020-03-12T18:48:14Z xkapastel joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:51:16Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:53:50Z Necktwi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-12T18:54:52Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-12T18:55:26Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:55:28Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T18:58:07Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T18:59:00Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:00:37Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:00:55Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-12T19:03:27Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-12T19:05:20Z isposdef joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:06:18Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-12T19:06:59Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-12T19:07:20Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-12T19:08:59Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-12T19:09:31Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:09:42Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:09:48Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:17:11Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:18:31Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:19:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-12T19:20:50Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:22:36Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:22:51Z aamukastemato quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-12T19:22:54Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T19:23:00Z dale__ joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:23:18Z dale__ is now known as dale 2020-03-12T19:23:22Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:25:21Z KDr22 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T19:27:56Z KDr22 joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:34:33Z vms14 joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:34:42Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:35:26Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-12T19:35:26Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-03-12T19:37:04Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:41:40Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-12T19:42:31Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-12T19:44:16Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:44:42Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-03-12T19:45:31Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-12T19:54:28Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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2020-03-12T21:27:47Z whiteline: our financial newspaper has the headline "worst day since black monday 1987" 2020-03-12T21:27:56Z matzy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-12T21:28:40Z whiteline: whoops, wrong channel 2020-03-12T21:29:23Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-12T21:32:08Z isBEKaml: whiteline: :-) I was wondering why lispers would read financial newspapers, unless they work in wall street 2020-03-12T21:32:28Z isBEKaml: of course, that's not to say they don't 2020-03-12T21:33:48Z jfb4: lispers have probably gone through the most financial crises 2020-03-12T21:34:06Z jfb4: including 87 2020-03-12T21:39:34Z aeth: I don't think anyone can ignore Monday/Thursday, but it's more of a #lispcafe thing 2020-03-12T21:45:06Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-12T21:51:21Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-03-12T21:51:40Z ravndal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-12T21:53:35Z ravndal joined #lisp 2020-03-12T22:02:01Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-12T22:04:02Z Bike 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2020-03-13T00:43:38Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-13T00:46:22Z equwal: Is it possible to install the Clasp compiler on Gentoo? 2020-03-13T00:48:00Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-13T00:51:53Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-03-13T00:55:19Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-13T00:56:59Z zulu_inuoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-13T00:58:12Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-13T00:58:40Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T00:58:43Z Bike: probably. you can ask #clasp for help 2020-03-13T01:02:43Z mathrick joined #lisp 2020-03-13T01:04:32Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2020-03-13T01:05:04Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-03-13T01:06:24Z zdm quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2020-03-13T01:18:26Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-13T01:18:33Z MightyJoe is now known as cyraxjoe 2020-03-13T01:20:31Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-13T01:22:39Z renzhi joined #lisp 2020-03-13T01:33:00Z electricoctopi 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tried it. 2020-03-13T12:22:21Z loke: I wasn't a fan, but I can't remember what I disliked about it. 2020-03-13T12:24:51Z oni-on-ion: neat that it has web version as well. i am thinking that if you've also cant remember an especially good thing about it then possibly it is neutral 2020-03-13T12:25:36Z jmercouris: lem is OK, very opinionated 2020-03-13T12:26:39Z z147: oni-on-ion, very opinionated install as well 2020-03-13T12:27:03Z oni-on-ion: not enough variety of devs/designers sounds like. need a lot of eyes for making very public tool 2020-03-13T12:27:22Z jmercouris: it's not that you need a variety of devs/designers, Next is just Pierre and I basically 2020-03-13T12:27:23Z oni-on-ion: z147, roswell =| 2020-03-13T12:27:33Z jmercouris: but we designed it specifically with the intent of being as customizable as possible 2020-03-13T12:27:34Z z147: don't even start :) 2020-03-13T12:27:39Z jmercouris: which makes the code significantly more complex 2020-03-13T12:27:42Z oni-on-ion: jmercouris, but on the model of web browsers already? 2020-03-13T12:27:44Z loke: jmercouris: I tried to run Next some time ago, and I completely failed to build it. 2020-03-13T12:27:48Z loke: Is there a secret to it? 2020-03-13T12:27:50Z z147: well the more the merrier 2020-03-13T12:28:01Z jmercouris: loke: you should be able to build it now, we've removed requirements for d-bus eetc, are you on Linux or macOS? 2020-03-13T12:28:06Z loke: Linux 2020-03-13T12:28:18Z jmercouris: loke: give it a try, (asdf:make :next) is all you need to do now 2020-03-13T12:28:22Z loke: OK, I'll give it a try again 2020-03-13T12:28:58Z z147: jmercouris, next is great. And painless install 2020-03-13T12:29:01Z jmercouris: oni-on-ion: in some ways, yes, but not really 2020-03-13T12:29:10Z jmercouris: z147: I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic :-D 2020-03-13T12:29:19Z jmercouris: painless now compared to how it was before :-D sure 2020-03-13T12:29:19Z z147: Nope. 2020-03-13T12:29:54Z z147: Well, it was a breeze in the park compared to roswell or lem 2020-03-13T12:29:54Z jmercouris: Well, I'm glad it was a good process for you! 2020-03-13T12:30:07Z z147: Yeah, it feels like you care about the experience, so thanks 2020-03-13T12:30:17Z jmercouris: no problem :-) 2020-03-13T12:32:22Z loke: jmercouris: Hmm... "Component "prove-asdf" not found, required by NIL" 2020-03-13T12:32:42Z jmercouris: loke: strange, what happens if you first quickload that and then make? 2020-03-13T12:33:32Z jmercouris: prove should only be required when trying to run the tests 2020-03-13T12:34:08Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T12:34:19Z Shinmera: If you have the defsystem-depends-on, it'll be required to load the system no matter what. 2020-03-13T12:35:09Z loke: jmercouris: I added the directory to *central-registry* 2020-03-13T12:35:22Z loke: Should i link it to QL's local-projects instead? 2020-03-13T12:35:23Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-13T12:35:35Z jmercouris: I think it should be the same in either case 2020-03-13T12:35:54Z jmercouris: Shinmera: even if it is a *different* system being loaded? 2020-03-13T12:36:09Z jmercouris: we have a different defsystem for the tests 2020-03-13T12:36:20Z Shinmera: in order to parse the defsystem at all, asdf needs to load it. 2020-03-13T12:36:27Z Shinmera: that's what defsystem-depends-on means 2020-03-13T12:36:39Z jmercouris: and it will parse all defsystems in the asd? 2020-03-13T12:36:50Z Shinmera: yes 2020-03-13T12:37:25Z Shinmera: the defsystem-depends-on thing is one of the parts of ASDF I really loathe. I know why it's there but it's.. not a great solution to the problem in my opinion. 2020-03-13T12:37:42Z jmercouris: interesting, maybe we should have two asds or so 2020-03-13T12:37:42Z loke: OK, quickloading now 2020-03-13T12:38:13Z loke: jmercouris: What is it using sqlite for? 2020-03-13T12:38:24Z jmercouris: loke: only for migration of old history databases 2020-03-13T12:38:38Z jmercouris: the new history database and bookmarks are now SEXP on disk 2020-03-13T12:38:50Z jmercouris: so if you had an old version of Next it could automatically migrate your things 2020-03-13T12:39:19Z oni-on-ion: i see 'minilem' added to QL =) 2020-03-13T12:39:28Z loke: jmercouris: It wants the libwebkit. There are a few different ones in the fedora repsitories. Which one should I use? 2020-03-13T12:39:42Z loke: There is webkit2gtk3-devel 2020-03-13T12:39:43Z jmercouris: I'm not sure honestly, someone made an issue about it on Fedora 2020-03-13T12:39:49Z jmercouris: let me look 2020-03-13T12:40:15Z jmercouris: here it is: sudo dnf install sbcl webkit2gtk3-devel glib-networking sqlite gsettings-desktop-schemas libfixposix-devel gstreamer1-devel gstreamer1-plugins-base xclip 2020-03-13T12:40:19Z jmercouris: those are the fedora dependencies 2020-03-13T12:40:19Z oni-on-ion: loke, i installed 4.0 yesterday, testing cl-webkit2 (debian) 2020-03-13T12:40:34Z jmercouris: and here is the pull request: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/next/pull/588 2020-03-13T12:41:31Z loke: OK, this starts to be familiar: 2020-03-13T12:41:39Z loke: READ error during COMPILE-FILE: Symbol "WEBKIT-NAVIGATION-POLICY-DECISION-GET-NAVIGATION-ACTION" not found in the CL-WEBKIT2 package. 2020-03-13T12:41:49Z jmercouris: you are not using the latest cl-webkit 2020-03-13T12:41:53Z jmercouris: it is not available on quicklisp yet 2020-03-13T12:41:56Z loke: I'm using the one from QL 2020-03-13T12:42:09Z jmercouris: that's correct 2020-03-13T12:42:12Z jmercouris: the latest ql dist does not have it yet 2020-03-13T12:42:13Z jmercouris: https://github.com/joachifm/cl-webkit 2020-03-13T12:42:21Z jmercouris: you need to just clone that and put it somewhere it can be found 2020-03-13T12:44:03Z loke: jmercouris: Thank you. It now builds. 2020-03-13T12:44:07Z jmercouris: yay :-) 2020-03-13T12:44:18Z loke: When I try to run it, it opens a window and then promptly crashes with this: # 2020-03-13T12:44:26Z jmercouris: Oh :-O 2020-03-13T12:44:30Z gko_ joined #lisp 2020-03-13T12:44:36Z jmercouris: never seen that before, maybe a permissions error 2020-03-13T12:45:01Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-13T12:45:42Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-03-13T12:45:46Z loke: jmercouris: I restarted the Lisp runtime and the problem went way 2020-03-13T12:45:49Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-13T12:45:49Z loke: away 2020-03-13T12:45:59Z jmercouris: ah, OK :-) 2020-03-13T12:46:22Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-13T12:47:32Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-13T12:49:05Z loke: jmercouris: OK, it runs. That's nice :-) 2020-03-13T12:49:13Z loke: Now for the most important question: How do I install Ublock 2020-03-13T12:49:29Z jackdaniel: u block urself 2020-03-13T12:49:33Z oni-on-ion: =( 2020-03-13T12:49:34Z jackdaniel: ;-) 2020-03-13T12:49:59Z ebrasca: addblock is wip in next 2020-03-13T12:50:00Z jackdaniel: seriously though I don't know, just thought that it will make a nice joke ;p 2020-03-13T12:50:00Z jmercouris: loke: Ublock not installable 2020-03-13T12:50:04Z oni-on-ion: ublock and dark mode are required 2020-03-13T12:50:36Z jmercouris: we are thinking about adding the standard webextension support for something in the next 6 months or so 2020-03-13T12:50:57Z jmercouris: right now, I do hosts based blocking on my machine, works pretty well for 99% 2020-03-13T12:51:02Z jmercouris: only thing I don't use Next for is youtube 2020-03-13T12:52:37Z loke: jmercouris: Is there a plan to get ublock running? I really can't use a browser without it 2020-03-13T12:53:02Z jmercouris: yeah, like I said, we want to support generic webextension protocol in about 6 months or so, which would mean you could install something like ublock 2020-03-13T12:53:16Z jmercouris: I hope we are able to do it 2020-03-13T12:54:30Z oni-on-ion: i hope as well, that would be super. was not aware there is a webextension standard/protocol or how crazy the world is without it 2020-03-13T12:54:36Z jackdaniel: loke: or write CL extension which uses ublock rules. club-lock would be a feasible name,) 2020-03-13T12:55:11Z oni-on-ion: +1 that 2020-03-13T12:56:45Z oni-on-ion: z147, read comment about roswell install, feeling what you meant earlier now. ^_^ 2020-03-13T12:57:29Z sz0 joined #lisp 2020-03-13T12:59:03Z oni-on-ion: Shinmera, oh what's this!? cool! =) https://kandria.com/ 2020-03-13T12:59:56Z z147: oni-on-ion, yep. But the more different solutions are available, the better. Let a thousand flowers bloom etc etc. 2020-03-13T13:00:38Z Shinmera: It's what I hope will make me enough money at some point to buy me some soup to live off of. 2020-03-13T13:00:40Z jackdaniel: the tyranny of freedom 2020-03-13T13:01:09Z kmeow quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-03-13T13:01:14Z oni-on-ion: z147, yeah =) 2020-03-13T13:01:15Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:01:27Z oni-on-ion: Shinmera, awesome! =) 2020-03-13T13:01:32Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-13T13:02:26Z kmeow joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:04:25Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T13:07:06Z lucasb joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:09:06Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T13:15:33Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:17:22Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:18:51Z davepdot_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T13:19:16Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:21:06Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-13T13:26:25Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-13T13:32:08Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:34:08Z LiamH joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:34:22Z zooey_ joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:34:39Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:35:03Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-13T13:35:44Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T13:36:53Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:41:58Z davsebam1e joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:43:55Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-13T13:45:15Z shidima joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:45:32Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:46:05Z parjanya joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:46:52Z shidima: I'm looking to do some webdevelopment with lisp, what framework is more or less the'standaard' atm? 2020-03-13T13:48:13Z shidima: I have played a bit with restas and hunchentoot 2020-03-13T13:48:24Z p_l: shidima: I don't think there's anything standard beyond what hunchentoot and clack offer 2020-03-13T13:51:57Z shidima: alright 2020-03-13T13:55:13Z Necktwi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-13T13:55:19Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.2)) 2020-03-13T13:55:29Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-13T13:55:32Z micro is now known as m1cr0 2020-03-13T13:56:37Z Shinmera: Frameworks are very opinionated, so there's a bunch of them, each with their own flavour. 2020-03-13T13:57:10Z Shinmera: I like Radiance, and I'm very happy to provide help with it. 2020-03-13T13:57:37Z oni-on-ion: weblocks ? 2020-03-13T14:01:18Z p_l: weblocks was competing at one point for the "Rails of CL" title, but it never went that far. And it had all the annoying issues of continuation-based frameworks 2020-03-13T14:01:41Z oni-on-ion: ah 2020-03-13T14:02:04Z Shinmera: If I remember correctly the currently maintained weblocks no longer uses continuations. 2020-03-13T14:03:26Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:03:27Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:03:36Z p_l: see how things change :) 2020-03-13T14:04:04Z shidima: yeah, thats why I though about asking here. :) 2020-03-13T14:04:33Z p_l: just in case for people not acquaintainted with the problems - while continuations are very, very nice approach, they are a tiny bit problematic in typical web deployment where you have N "shards" serving the web app 2020-03-13T14:04:57Z shidima: Loading up radiance in sly right now 2020-03-13T14:05:03Z shidima: Giving it a spin 2020-03-13T14:05:04Z p_l: as you pretty much need to route connections for given session always to the same instance 2020-03-13T14:05:21Z Shinmera: shidima: Fingers crossed! :) 2020-03-13T14:06:45Z ebrasca: p_l: Why it is bad? 2020-03-13T14:07:09Z devrtz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-13T14:07:25Z m1cr0 is now known as micro 2020-03-13T14:08:33Z p_l: ebrasca: because you need to hit the shard that contains your continuation :) 2020-03-13T14:08:36Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T14:09:21Z p_l: it's non-trivial to share continuations between shards 2020-03-13T14:12:10Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:14:58Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-13T14:17:10Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-13T14:19:39Z electricoctopi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-13T14:21:00Z shidima: I'm following the tutorial and i get a warning about: 2020-03-13T14:21:02Z shidima: The system plaster has no version specified, so Radiance does not know how to migrate it to the latest point. 2020-03-13T14:21:03Z shidima: 2020-03-13T14:21:37Z Xach: shidima: who wrote the tutorial? 2020-03-13T14:21:56Z shidima: I'm guessing Shinmera :) 2020-03-13T14:22:28Z Shinmera: in the asd file you made, just put in a :version "0.0.0" or something like that. 2020-03-13T14:22:40Z Shinmera: It's not a big problem though, so don't worry. 2020-03-13T14:23:03Z Shinmera: Colleen: look up radiance 1.12 2020-03-13T14:23:04Z Colleen: 1.12 migration system https://shirakumo.github.io/radiance#1.12_migration_system 2020-03-13T14:23:26Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:24:09Z Shinmera: It's useful when you have live installations and you need to change something about the data format and such. 2020-03-13T14:25:17Z electricoctopi joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:25:17Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:29:43Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-13T14:32:09Z dale__ joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:32:19Z dale__ is now known as dale 2020-03-13T14:33:36Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:34:40Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T14:37:46Z devrtz joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:38:55Z schweers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T14:40:12Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:45:28Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:45:43Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T14:46:07Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:46:48Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T14:50:36Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2020-03-13T14:50:42Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T14:51:17Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:53:07Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:54:18Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-13T14:59:02Z thecoffemaker quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T14:59:11Z ebzzry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T15:00:37Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T15:01:53Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-13T15:02:11Z chip2n quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-03-13T15:02:27Z chip2n joined #lisp 2020-03-13T15:04:22Z vms14 joined #lisp 2020-03-13T15:10:57Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-13T15:12:10Z Xach: heisig: hi, http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-03-12/failure-report/sealable-metaobjects.html#sealable-metaobjects-test-suite is a thing that puzzles me greatly! 2020-03-13T15:13:24Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-13T15:13:30Z random-nick: does format have way to repeat a character an amount of times passed as an argument?? 2020-03-13T15:13:57Z chip2n quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-03-13T15:14:04Z heisig: Xach: Thanks, I will look into it. Seems like I funcall NIL at some point... 2020-03-13T15:14:09Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T15:14:12Z chip2n joined #lisp 2020-03-13T15:14:23Z Shinmera: (format T "~v{x~}" n '(0)) 2020-03-13T15:14:47Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-13T15:16:08Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-13T15:16:40Z heisig: Xach: Do the failure reports include the git revision somewhere? Because I had 10 new commit since then, and I cannot reproduce the error locally. 2020-03-13T15:17:31Z luni joined #lisp 2020-03-13T15:20:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-13T15:21:23Z random-nick: thank you 2020-03-13T15:23:15Z Xach: heisig: no, they don't, i'll just wait for today's run to see if it persists. 2020-03-13T15:23:23Z Xach: heisig: i am using (almost) the latest sbcl from git though. 2020-03-13T15:23:51Z Xach: i need to add provenance info for better debugging 2020-03-13T15:24:27Z chip2n quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-03-13T15:24:46Z chip2n joined #lisp 2020-03-13T15:27:12Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2020-03-13T15:28:45Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-13T15:34:40Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-13T15:38:21Z devrtz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-13T15:43:36Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-13T15:44:03Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-13T15:45:37Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-13T15:47:12Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-13T15:49:07Z devrtz joined #lisp 2020-03-13T15:56:02Z devrtz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T15:56:16Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T15:57:26Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-13T16:08:18Z sarna quit (Quit: bye) 2020-03-13T16:08:21Z vms14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T16:08:51Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-13T16:09:36Z sarna joined #lisp 2020-03-13T16:10:15Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-13T16:11:14Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-13T16:11:53Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-13T16:13:03Z devrtz joined #lisp 2020-03-13T16:13:32Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-13T16:16:20Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-13T16:31:13Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-03-13T16:32:01Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-13T16:36:46Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T16:39:59Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-13T16:42:20Z didi joined #lisp 2020-03-13T16:42:47Z didi: SLIME's C-c M-e is great. That's it. 2020-03-13T16:44:22Z electricoctopi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-13T16:45:12Z jmercouris: sure is 2020-03-13T16:45:40Z shinohai quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-13T16:47:02Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-13T16:47:18Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-13T16:48:19Z shinohai joined #lisp 2020-03-13T16:49:30Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-03-13T16:54:15Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-13T16:54:27Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-13T16:59:23Z Achylles joined #lisp 2020-03-13T16:59:47Z gmeister quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4) 2020-03-13T16:59:54Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-13T17:02:13Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-13T17:02:46Z sukaeto: shidima: I've had luck with caveman2. It's written by Eitaro Fukamachi (the same guy who wrote clack). 2020-03-13T17:03:52Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:04:24Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:05:24Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T17:05:26Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:05:53Z Nilby joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:06:37Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-03-13T17:06:57Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T17:07:39Z davepdot_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-13T17:08:03Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-13T17:08:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-13T17:08:40Z Jesin joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:10:27Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-13T17:10:27Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-13T17:10:40Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:11:50Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:14:36Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:14:46Z electricoctopi joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:15:51Z liambrown joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:16:59Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-13T17:19:53Z electricoctopi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-13T17:24:33Z lnostdal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T17:26:54Z parjanya left #lisp 2020-03-13T17:29:59Z parjanya joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:31:21Z parjanya quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-13T17:33:21Z parjanya joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:34:20Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T17:35:30Z shidima quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T17:37:11Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2020-03-13T17:37:22Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:38:12Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T17:38:21Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T17:38:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T17:44:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:45:58Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T17:48:43Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-13T17:50:43Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-13T17:50:58Z MichaelRaskin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-13T17:51:35Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:53:23Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:54:03Z mangul is now known as shangul 2020-03-13T17:55:30Z asarch: So | The most powerful hardware ever |<==| Assembly |<---| CFFI |--->| The most powerful Lisp ever: Common Lisp | 2020-03-13T17:55:39Z asarch: There is no limit for Common Lisp, right? 2020-03-13T17:56:20Z koenig: Only in that which can be computed. 2020-03-13T17:57:03Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2020-03-13T17:58:24Z asarch: Yeah! \o/ 2020-03-13T18:00:05Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-13T18:00:51Z devrtz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-13T18:02:36Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-13T18:06:03Z didi left #lisp 2020-03-13T18:13:02Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-03-13T18:13:23Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-13T18:17:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T18:18:16Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T18:21:21Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-13T18:28:49Z devrtz joined #lisp 2020-03-13T18:28:57Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2020-03-13T18:33:39Z pjb: koenig: if the universe is a "computer simulation", wouldn't that mean that everything in the universe can be computed? 2020-03-13T18:33:43Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-13T18:35:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-13T18:35:15Z pjb: The problem is not really what can be computed vs. what cannot be computed. It's more between what can be represented vs. what cannot be represented. The later cannot be thought, we can't even know it. 2020-03-13T18:38:11Z pjb: For example, the cardinal of ℕ cannot be "computed", but it can still be represented as ℵ₀ 2020-03-13T18:41:05Z fanta1 joined #lisp 2020-03-13T18:53:05Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T18:56:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:03:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T19:06:03Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-13T19:08:49Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T19:09:37Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:12:47Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:12:51Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T19:16:34Z xkapastel joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:17:48Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-13T19:18:18Z pfdietz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T19:20:37Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T19:23:13Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:23:37Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T19:24:02Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T19:24:56Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:25:45Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:26:58Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:28:13Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-03-13T19:29:14Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:29:42Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-13T19:33:18Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T19:34:26Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:37:14Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-13T19:37:55Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-13T19:38:30Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:39:09Z even4void quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-13T19:41:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T19:46:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:46:45Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:50:00Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:50:40Z z147 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T19:50:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T19:51:03Z z147 joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:51:45Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T19:58:55Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-13T19:59:40Z vhost- quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 2020-03-13T20:00:46Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-13T20:01:05Z Bike quit (Quit: Bike) 2020-03-13T20:03:00Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-13T20:03:06Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-03-13T20:03:59Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T20:05:26Z vhost- joined #lisp 2020-03-13T20:05:26Z vhost- quit (Changing host) 2020-03-13T20:05:26Z vhost- joined #lisp 2020-03-13T20:08:53Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T20:10:56Z aindilis joined #lisp 2020-03-13T20:11:34Z republican_devil joined #lisp 2020-03-13T20:12:01Z republican_devil: hey why isnt lisp all around not java? java is garbage and ellison should be jailed for treason 2020-03-13T20:12:32Z fanta1 quit (Quit: fanta1) 2020-03-13T20:12:45Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2020-03-13T20:15:06Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-13T20:15:52Z pjb: republican_devil: how many applications used by actual users did you write in lisp? 2020-03-13T20:16:21Z pjb: republican_devil: in the mean-time, Java developpers have written a ton of Java applications used by actual users… 2020-03-13T20:17:06Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-13T20:18:05Z pjb: republican_devil: Just write useful applications and tools in CL, and users will buy them. They don't care what language it's written in. 2020-03-13T20:18:44Z pjb: republican_devil: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html 2020-03-13T20:19:05Z pjb: republican_devil: https://franz.com/success/ 2020-03-13T20:19:31Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T20:23:44Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T20:30:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T20:34:06Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-13T20:34:51Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-13T20:35:08Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-13T20:37:55Z narendraj9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-13T20:40:04Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-13T20:45:27Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-13T20:48:58Z narendra` joined #lisp 2020-03-13T20:55:03Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:00:50Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-13T21:01:53Z cosimone_ joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:02:21Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-13T21:02:37Z cosimone_ is now known as cosimone 2020-03-13T21:04:53Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:07:03Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:07:08Z Shinmera: didn't we have this guy on here before with really basic trolls 2020-03-13T21:08:25Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-03-13T21:10:06Z cosimone_ joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:11:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-13T21:12:36Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-13T21:13:42Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:13:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:15:10Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:15:55Z narendra` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-13T21:17:28Z narendra` joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:18:08Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T21:18:25Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-13T21:22:15Z narendra` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-13T21:23:00Z trocado joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:23:56Z narendra` joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:24:29Z narendra` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T21:25:36Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:29:27Z aeth: Okay, I can see why beach wouldn't want to start a Common Lisp implementation with a subset and then build CLOS on top of that subset. 2020-03-13T21:30:36Z aeth: I'm writing my Scheme reader in Common Lisp and I started with just doing conditional branches on the macro syntax itself, and then I moved it into conditional branches dispatching on structs, and then I turned those structs into DEFCLASS once I started writing quite a few generic methods on top of them for simplification. A tokenizer is apparently best expressed with full OO, at least in Common Lisp. 2020-03-13T21:31:39Z aeth: That is, it's a lot easier/cleaner to make sure every class has a method than it is to make sure that every ETYPECASE has a branch, at least in reading. 2020-03-13T21:33:50Z aeth: I suppose I could have written a pattern matching macro to write a pattern matching macro to write a reader, though. 2020-03-13T21:36:55Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-13T21:37:58Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T21:37:59Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:38:36Z cosimone_ is now known as cosimone 2020-03-13T21:39:01Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-13T21:39:54Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-13T21:41:37Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:41:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:42:14Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:45:54Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T21:46:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T21:47:22Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T21:53:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:53:29Z jxy_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-13T21:57:47Z jxy joined #lisp 2020-03-13T21:58:06Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-13T22:00:54Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-13T22:06:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-13T22:08:31Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-13T22:10:50Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T22:11:23Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T22:13:55Z no-defun-allowed: Hello LdBeth 2020-03-13T22:15:56Z mathrick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T22:16:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T22:19:08Z mathrick joined #lisp 2020-03-13T22:20:14Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T22:21:27Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-03-13T22:38:15Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-13T22:43:21Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-13T22:43:27Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-13T22:52:31Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-13T22:52:43Z z147 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-13T22:59:02Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-13T22:59:36Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:02:10Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:04:07Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:05:21Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:06:38Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:06:59Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-13T23:07:17Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:08:58Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T23:10:06Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T23:11:44Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-13T23:12:12Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:12:16Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T23:12:56Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-13T23:13:46Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:13:59Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-13T23:14:18Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:14:55Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:23:10Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:33:16Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-13T23:36:58Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-13T23:37:46Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:39:31Z mathrick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T23:40:44Z mathrick joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:43:05Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:43:19Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-13T23:44:01Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-13T23:45:02Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:45:49Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-13T23:46:14Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:46:15Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-13T23:46:50Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-13T23:46:51Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-03-13T23:47:55Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-13T23:50:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-13T23:59:14Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-03-14T00:04:30Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-14T00:06:43Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T00:10:31Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-03-14T00:14:14Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T00:14:55Z vhost- joined #lisp 2020-03-14T00:18:52Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-14T00:20:51Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-14T00:20:56Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T00:21:06Z c2f00 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T00:22:26Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-14T00:24:56Z luni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T00:25:48Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-14T00:26:19Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 2020-03-14T03:13:25Z no-defun-allowed: That's step 2. 2020-03-14T03:13:31Z Guest91981 is now known as equwal 2020-03-14T03:13:54Z no-defun-allowed: How many nicks do you need to get advice on beginner material? 2020-03-14T03:14:35Z nationalist_devL: oh I just changed it 2020-03-14T03:14:41Z nationalist_devL: bcause I am not longer republican 2020-03-14T03:14:53Z equwal: What is a republican? 2020-03-14T03:15:00Z White_Flame: nationalist_devL: #clschool is also dedicated to learning, while this channel tends to get deep in the details 2020-03-14T03:15:23Z nationalist_devL: political party in USA 2020-03-14T03:15:38Z no-defun-allowed: equwal: not relevant to #lisp, but titlecased and downcased "republican" are two different beliefs. 2020-03-14T03:15:40Z White_Flame: (also, wasn't it always "don't bring up religion & politics in public discussion"? we have off-topic channels for that) 2020-03-14T03:15:58Z nationalist_devL: so let me ask this.....I see a lot of things to do web gui apps and to sclae them and the data part seems more and more important 2020-03-14T03:16:38Z nationalist_devL: I was reading paul grahams stuff and he said that he used files and 1 lisp interpreter for each web client...now that seemsed cool and just stored info in files on a netapp 2020-03-14T03:17:01Z White_Flame: 99.999999% of web apps don't need massive scaling because they won't have a massive audience 2020-03-14T03:17:07Z nationalist_devL: heh 2020-03-14T03:17:31Z nationalist_devL: can you do web programming in a functional programming style? 2020-03-14T03:17:37Z White_Flame: and with hardware getting faster, and libraries & compilers getting better, that majority gets bigger 2020-03-14T03:17:47Z White_Flame: "functional programming" has 2 meanings 2020-03-14T03:17:53Z White_Flame: 1) pure functional programming, a la haskell 2020-03-14T03:18:00Z White_Flame: 2) programming with passing around first-class functions 2020-03-14T03:18:04Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, by both meanings. 2020-03-14T03:18:34Z no-defun-allowed: But you shouldn't really care about paradigms in Common Lisp; do whatever suits the problem and suits your mind. 2020-03-14T03:18:41Z q-u-a-n21 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:19:31Z darkstardev13 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:19:37Z dale__ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:19:44Z nationalist_devL: I've heard that lisp allows a lot of freedom of expression. 2020-03-14T03:19:45Z dale quit (Disconnected by services) 2020-03-14T03:19:51Z dale__ is now known as dale 2020-03-14T03:20:00Z nationalist_devL: Anyone here do any web programming? 2020-03-14T03:20:02Z davisr_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:20:09Z White_Flame: being able to extend the language itself certainly allows a lot of expressivity 2020-03-14T03:20:13Z akrl````` joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:20:29Z no-defun-allowed: You might not want Lisp then if you don't like freedom of expression. 2020-03-14T03:20:36Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, I have written some web programs before. 2020-03-14T03:20:38Z nationalist_devL: oh I think I do 2020-03-14T03:20:41Z White_Flame: there's also #lispweb, but I presume most people there are also here 2020-03-14T03:20:54Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:21:09Z bkst_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:21:11Z koenig1 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:21:18Z wigust- joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:21:24Z copec_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:21:33Z ShinmerARGH joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:21:47Z nationalist_devL: cliki.net has a bunch of stuff 2020-03-14T03:21:49Z nationalist_devL: wow 2020-03-14T03:21:52Z chip2n_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:22:10Z nationalist_devL: lisp on lines, weblochs antiweb wookie 2020-03-14T03:22:13Z nationalist_devL: whew 2020-03-14T03:22:18Z nationalist_devL: hunentoot 2020-03-14T03:22:40Z cracauer` joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:22:50Z matijja``` joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:23:30Z snits_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:23:32Z hjudt_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:23:32Z aoh__ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:23:33Z vert2_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:23:40Z jibanes joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:23:45Z kbtr_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:23:48Z flip214_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:23:51Z keja_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:23:52Z ski_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:24:07Z ineiros joined #lisp 2020-03-14T03:24:16Z White_Flame: it's hard to know what's the most recent/preferred just from cliki. 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to make things simple 2020-03-14T03:58:23Z White_Flame: yes, performing such operations on lists is part of the standard language 2020-03-14T03:58:42Z White_Flame: the real power is when you use that to process source code (since s-expressions are just lists), and do metaprogramming 2020-03-14T03:59:26Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-14T04:00:03Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-14T04:04:05Z White_Flame: also, lisp has arrays, hashtables, structures, classes/objects, etc 2020-03-14T04:20:03Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-14T04:22:46Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T04:23:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-14T04:26:58Z mark80 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T04:27:41Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-14T04:28:00Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-14T04:28:24Z ski_ is now known as ski 2020-03-14T04:31:15Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-14T04:36:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T04:38:16Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-14T04:45:55Z KDr23 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T04:47:31Z KDr23 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T04:49:38Z davisr_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-14T04:49:58Z davisr_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T04:50:10Z davisr_ is now known as davisr 2020-03-14T04:59:18Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-03-14T04:59:32Z ebrasca: Morning beach! 2020-03-14T05:00:23Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-03-14T05:06:46Z davisr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-14T05:10:16Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-03-14T05:10:39Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-14T05:12:30Z nationalist_devL quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T05:13:32Z PuercoPope joined #lisp 2020-03-14T05:14:37Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-14T05:21:52Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-14T05:21:54Z sauvin joined #lisp 2020-03-14T05:22:11Z antonv joined #lisp 2020-03-14T05:22:40Z antonv: is armedbear-devel@common-lisp.net broken? 2020-03-14T05:22:48Z antonv: I'm sending email - not receiving it back 2020-03-14T05:22:52Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-14T05:22:58Z antonv: trying to check my subscription options - login fails 2020-03-14T05:23:11Z antonv: trying to get password reminder - nothing comes to my mailbox 2020-03-14T05:23:24Z antonv: trying to subscribe - again, nothing in the mailbox 2020-03-14T05:30:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-14T05:32:21Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T05:33:12Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-14T05:35:11Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-03-14T05:40:01Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-14T05:44:17Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T05:45:53Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-14T05:48:41Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-14T05:53:27Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T05:56:51Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2020-03-14T06:08:02Z gioyik_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T06:08:51Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T06:10:56Z jeosol quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-14T06:12:52Z easye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T06:15:01Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-14T06:15:06Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-14T06:16:36Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-03-14T06:18:15Z Intensity joined #lisp 2020-03-14T06:23:38Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T06:27:11Z shidima joined #lisp 2020-03-14T06:28:27Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T06:30:02Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-14T06:34:03Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T06:35:28Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-14T06:36:19Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-14T06:40:07Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-14T06:43:01Z iiee joined #lisp 2020-03-14T06:43:11Z iiee: python < lisp am i rite? 2020-03-14T06:44:42Z pjb quit (Quit: Let's go travel!) 2020-03-14T06:48:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T06:49:08Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-14T06:50:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-14T06:52:44Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-14T06:53:29Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-14T06:54:33Z beach: iiee: I don't think you would get an unbiased answer in this channel. 2020-03-14T06:55:40Z ebrasca: iiee: My unbiased opition is lisp is best language ever. 2020-03-14T07:01:53Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2020-03-14T07:03:00Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-03-14T07:15:07Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-14T07:16:19Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-14T07:17:17Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T07:17:34Z amerlyq quit (Quit: amerlyq) 2020-03-14T07:17:58Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2020-03-14T07:18:34Z iiee quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-14T07:18:45Z iiee joined #lisp 2020-03-14T07:22:47Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T07:29:54Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T07:30:07Z no-defun-allowed: I quite like the CMUCL and SBCL compiler. 2020-03-14T07:32:14Z beach: But a type-error will be signaled if you try to compare it to a programming language. 2020-03-14T07:32:42Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-14T07:33:10Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-14T07:34:22Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-14T07:36:39Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-14T07:40:23Z c2f00 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-14T07:40:54Z zdm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-14T07:42:27Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-14T07:42:42Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T07:45:37Z ShinmerARGH left #lisp 2020-03-14T07:46:23Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2020-03-14T07:49:59Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-14T07:50:30Z iiee: hmm 2020-03-14T07:54:57Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-14T07:56:20Z beach: iiee: I suggest you ask questions about the characteristics of Common Lisp instead. That way, you will get more precise answers and you can make up your own mind. 2020-03-14T07:56:27Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2020-03-14T07:58:33Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-14T07:58:34Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-14T08:00:08Z gioyik_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7) 2020-03-14T08:06:49Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-03-14T08:07:42Z igemnace joined #lisp 2020-03-14T08:12:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T08:14:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-14T08:20:38Z KDr23 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T08:22:16Z KDr23 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T08:24:31Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T08:27:34Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-14T08:29:22Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-14T08:29:31Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T08:38:54Z aeth: Common Lisp is better at being Common Lisp than most other programming languages. 2020-03-14T08:39:13Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-03-14T08:39:54Z iiee: my lisp variant is superior to the other lisps 2020-03-14T08:39:59Z jackdaniel: weren't you here yesterday with the same bait? 2020-03-14T08:40:55Z flip214_: iiee: because you don't use any parens? 2020-03-14T08:41:27Z iiee: flip214_: maybe 2020-03-14T08:41:33Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T08:42:52Z flip214_: well, without any facts we can't acknowledge your lisp's superiority 2020-03-14T08:43:00Z amerlyq quit (Quit: amerlyq) 2020-03-14T08:43:27Z iiee: flip214_: it does indeed only require parentheses for variadic functions 2020-03-14T08:44:04Z jackdaniel: please refrain from offtopic. this is a common lisp related channel. 2020-03-14T08:44:40Z iiee: my thing is also called common lisp... so i think i am ontopic 2020-03-14T08:44:43Z aeth: iiee: ##lisp is for comparative Lisps, the Lisp family, etc. 2020-03-14T08:44:50Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel 2020-03-14T08:44:53Z jackdaniel has set mode +b *!*user@109.108.213.* 2020-03-14T08:44:59Z aeth: #lisp is for the language conforming with http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/common-lisp.html 2020-03-14T08:45:01Z iiee [~jackdanie@turtleware.eu] has been kicked from #lisp by jackdaniel (iiee) 2020-03-14T08:45:08Z flip214_: iiee: well, but that means that there's no homoiconicity between macros, functions, data, type definitions, and other stuff 2020-03-14T08:45:11Z jackdaniel has set mode -o jackdaniel 2020-03-14T08:45:15Z jackdaniel: I'm not very patient today, sorry 2020-03-14T08:45:16Z flip214_: jackdaniel: oh, that's not nice 2020-03-14T08:45:35Z flip214_ is now known as flip214 2020-03-14T08:45:38Z jackdaniel: well, I'm convinced he was trolling 2020-03-14T08:46:03Z flip214: even trolls might teach you new ways to look at something.... but yeah, perhaps this is the wrong place 2020-03-14T08:46:44Z flip214: [sorry, one more off-topic: anybody else having problems with transatlantic sites, like dilbert.com?] 2020-03-14T08:48:35Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-03-14T08:48:42Z MichaelRaskin: I think pretending calling a different language Common Lisp is a bit on the malicious side of trolling, and I am willing to discuss differential debugging of long-distance routing in #lispcafe ([WORKSFORME]) 2020-03-14T08:50:05Z flip214: MichaelRaskin: thanks 2020-03-14T08:52:18Z dale quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep) 2020-03-14T08:54:16Z easye joined #lisp 2020-03-14T08:59:25Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T09:00:20Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-14T09:09:21Z flip214: Hi. When trying to render (Shift-Z) or sometimes during normal work blender crashes; the message is: BLI_assert failed: /build/blender-gtX5fg/blender-2.82+dfsg/source/blender/gpu/intern/gpu_framebuffer.c:780, GPU_framebuffer_recursive_downsample(), at '0x8CD5 == __glewCheckFramebufferStatus(0x8D40)' 2020-03-14T09:09:29Z flip214: sorry, wrong channel 2020-03-14T09:12:51Z c2f00 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T09:13:52Z luni joined #lisp 2020-03-14T09:16:06Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-14T09:22:20Z Posterdati: hi 2020-03-14T09:22:47Z beach: Hello Posterdati. 2020-03-14T09:22:51Z Posterdati: please help, is anyone using lisp-executable to create standalone executables? 2020-03-14T09:23:28Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-14T09:23:33Z Posterdati: I'm following this --> http://markcox80.github.io/lisp-executable/ 2020-03-14T09:24:05Z Posterdati: but the program execution gave me this error: $ /tmp/guessing-number --help 2020-03-14T09:24:05Z Posterdati: Unhandled error: No program information available for MY-PROGRAM 2020-03-14T09:24:09Z phoe: Posterdati: sorry, I'm from the deploy gang 2020-03-14T09:24:12Z phoe: https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy 2020-03-14T09:24:25Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-14T09:30:47Z Posterdati: ok thanks 2020-03-14T09:35:01Z c2f00 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-14T09:35:13Z fookara quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T09:38:12Z shidima quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-14T09:39:20Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-14T09:41:57Z Posterdati: please is there any tutorial for deploy? Thanks! 2020-03-14T09:43:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-14T09:43:28Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-14T09:44:29Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-14T09:47:37Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-14T09:47:46Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: net.didierverna.clon has a good manual (and it is yet another utility to create executables with cli interfaces) 2020-03-14T09:48:16Z PuercoPope quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T09:49:35Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-14T09:50:46Z Posterdati: please is there any tutorial for deploy (the package deploy)? Thanks! 2020-03-14T09:51:19Z Shinmera: It's right fucking there on the page phoe linked 2020-03-14T09:51:50Z Posterdati: nice, not working 2020-03-14T09:52:13Z Posterdati: I won't call it a tutorial 2020-03-14T09:52:40Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-03-14T09:53:40Z Posterdati: #'s entry point guessing-number:start is not coercable to a class or function! 2020-03-14T09:56:39Z Posterdati: sorry!!!! My fault! Fixed now! 2020-03-14T09:59:32Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-14T10:00:25Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T10:02:15Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-03-14T10:02:20Z KDr24 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T10:03:52Z KDr23 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-14T10:06:56Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-14T10:11:35Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-14T10:11:58Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-14T10:12:31Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-14T10:14:39Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T10:14:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-14T10:16:06Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-03-14T10:17:52Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-14T10:19:59Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-14T10:20:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T10:22:43Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T10:29:11Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2020-03-14T10:31:05Z davsebam1e quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-14T10:34:05Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-14T10:35:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-14T10:36:01Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-14T10:42:22Z antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 2020-03-14T10:49:02Z amnesia` joined #lisp 2020-03-14T10:52:48Z leo_song quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb1+deb9u1 - http://znc.in) 2020-03-14T11:11:02Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T11:13:03Z luni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T11:14:01Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-14T11:14:49Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-14T11:14:55Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-14T11:15:47Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-14T11:16:15Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-14T11:25:13Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-03-14T11:27:06Z leo_song joined #lisp 2020-03-14T11:32:29Z amnesia` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T11:35:25Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-14T11:37:54Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T11:39:13Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-14T11:39:27Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-14T11:39:51Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-14T11:42:50Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-14T11:43:01Z random-nick: is there a way to ignore the first element in loop's for across? 2020-03-14T11:44:21Z Shinmera: Not without creating a new vector or doing manual indexing. 2020-03-14T11:45:13Z Shinmera: Easy enough to replace with the latter, though. 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2020-03-14T14:38:34Z davisr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-14T14:39:18Z davisr joined #lisp 2020-03-14T14:42:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-14T14:44:22Z Shinmera: Depends 2020-03-14T14:44:32Z beach: It depends on the project and the maintainer(s). 2020-03-14T14:45:16Z ebrasca: Here it is https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/pull/63 2020-03-14T14:46:09Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix is a busy guy. 2020-03-14T14:49:15Z ebrasca: Who is fe[nl]ix ? 2020-03-14T14:49:28Z Shinmera: The maintainer of bordeaux-threads. 2020-03-14T14:55:09Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-03-14T14:58:50Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-14T15:00:43Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-03-14T15:00:52Z Josh_2` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-14T15:03:07Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-14T15:03:11Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T15:06:35Z KDr2 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T15:06:55Z mangul is now known as shangul 2020-03-14T15:08:15Z KDr24 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-14T15:09:26Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T15:12:11Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T15:12:38Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-14T15:12:55Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T15:13:15Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T15:13:31Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-14T15:16:49Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-03-14T15:17:49Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-14T15:21:25Z sz0 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T15:24:49Z pilne joined #lisp 2020-03-14T15:33:43Z ebzzry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-14T15:33:48Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T15:41:40Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-03-14T15:42:51Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T15:46:07Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-14T15:57:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T15:59:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:00:12Z Bourne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T16:06:16Z trocado joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:06:55Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:08:10Z izh_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:11:31Z Grauwolf joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:11:31Z Grauwolf quit (Changing host) 2020-03-14T16:11:31Z Grauwolf joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:11:47Z manualcrank quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T16:12:03Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:14:59Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-14T16:15:18Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:15:54Z Grauwolf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T16:16:55Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T16:19:19Z Grauwolf joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:19:19Z Grauwolf quit (Changing host) 2020-03-14T16:19:19Z Grauwolf joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:19:31Z Grauwolf quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-14T16:19:49Z pilne quit (Quit: Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.) 2020-03-14T16:21:14Z pilne joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:21:38Z Grauwolf joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:21:38Z Grauwolf quit (Changing host) 2020-03-14T16:21:38Z Grauwolf joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:24:29Z manualcrank quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-14T16:24:30Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-14T16:25:25Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:28:13Z lukego: Quicklisp issue. I'm following the instructions at https://github.com/borodust/bodge-ui-window to install from a specific quicklisp dist but some bodge packages (notable CLAW) are ending up installed from mainline quicklisp instead of the dist I've specified. This breaks stuff because of version mismatch. Some trick to give preference to the out-of-mainline packages? 2020-03-14T16:32:10Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:32:20Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:32:26Z ravndal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-14T16:32:46Z shidima joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:33:38Z luni left #lisp 2020-03-14T16:34:44Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T16:34:55Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-14T16:38:26Z EvW quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-14T16:38:42Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:42:25Z trocado joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:42:25Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:46:49Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-14T16:47:03Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:50:05Z shangul quit (Changing host) 2020-03-14T16:50:05Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:51:43Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: Do make group call in Atlanta Funcional Programing about lisp? 2020-03-14T16:53:45Z jackdaniel: I once had a presentation about McCLIM there 2020-03-14T16:56:01Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: Do you manage someting similar? 2020-03-14T16:56:41Z jackdaniel: I'm not hosting any meetups if that's what you are asking 2020-03-14T16:59:03Z ravndal joined #lisp 2020-03-14T16:59:06Z hhdave joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:00:41Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:00:46Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-14T17:05:07Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T17:05:37Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:06:12Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:09:39Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T17:11:12Z renzhi joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:13:00Z shangul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-14T17:13:50Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:17:38Z knicklux joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:17:53Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-14T17:18:34Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-14T17:22:02Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2020-03-14T17:30:11Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:32:11Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:33:44Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-14T17:34:54Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:37:24Z fookara quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T17:37:25Z hhdave joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:40:33Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-14T17:40:37Z libertyprime quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-14T17:41:07Z matijja``` is now known as matijja 2020-03-14T17:41:55Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:44:51Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-14T17:46:17Z bugrum joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:46:38Z mangul quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-14T17:48:04Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:48:54Z axion: CL Study Group starting now. Covering the MOP some more: https://hangouts.google.com/call/uCaVMwjDDFwI_-89LNv-AEEE 2020-03-14T17:49:41Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2020-03-14T17:50:02Z hhdave joined #lisp 2020-03-14T17:52:02Z frgo_ quit 2020-03-14T17:57:38Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2020-03-14T18:03:43Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-14T18:09:17Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T18:09:25Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-14T18:09:35Z madage joined #lisp 2020-03-14T18:12:39Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T18:16:28Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T18:17:03Z ebrasca: axion: Can you shara later youtube link?, I don't have google acount. 2020-03-14T18:17:17Z Guest53850 is now known as seisatsu 2020-03-14T18:22:04Z Lycurgus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T18:25:24Z shidima` joined #lisp 2020-03-14T18:28:48Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-03-14T18:29:14Z shidima quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T18:32:35Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-14T18:37:38Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-03-14T18:40:23Z shidima` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T18:40:38Z shidima` joined #lisp 2020-03-14T18:49:55Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-14T18:51:13Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T18:52:04Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-14T18:57:06Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T18:57:08Z elazul joined #lisp 2020-03-14T18:59:06Z elazul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T18:59:36Z elazul joined #lisp 2020-03-14T18:59:41Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T19:01:38Z semz joined #lisp 2020-03-14T19:01:38Z semz quit (Changing host) 2020-03-14T19:01:38Z semz joined #lisp 2020-03-14T19:06:57Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T19:07:29Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-03-14T19:07:42Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T19:11:37Z trocado quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-14T19:12:11Z aamukastemato joined #lisp 2020-03-14T19:14:48Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T19:14:59Z elazul quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-14T19:17:35Z spikemaster joined #lisp 2020-03-14T19:19:51Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T19:21:43Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T19:28:48Z bugrum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T19:28:59Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-03-14T19:42:24Z shidima`` joined #lisp 2020-03-14T19:46:27Z shidima` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T19:47:11Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T19:47:22Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-14T19:55:03Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-14T19:58:02Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:02:03Z aamukastemato quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T20:06:32Z bars0 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:06:52Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:07:53Z bars0 quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-14T20:08:28Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-14T20:10:12Z bars0 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:12:42Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:14:15Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:15:31Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:19:52Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:20:39Z oxum_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-14T20:20:55Z shidima`` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-03-14T20:21:26Z shidima joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:24:20Z Involuntary joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:26:35Z dtman34 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T20:27:03Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T20:27:42Z HDurer joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:29:54Z Involuntary quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-14T20:30:03Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:31:22Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:33:06Z aeth: Any news about what's happening to ELS 2020? 2020-03-14T20:37:53Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:38:08Z hhdave joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:39:28Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:44:12Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-14T20:46:02Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-14T20:46:06Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T20:48:37Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-03-14T20:53:12Z KDr2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-14T20:53:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2020-03-14T20:55:48Z KDr2 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T21:00:53Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-14T21:05:15Z Shinmera: No news so far but it's not looking good. 2020-03-14T21:07:14Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-14T21:10:54Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-03-14T21:11:21Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-14T21:12:42Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-14T21:15:43Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T21:16:03Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T21:17:46Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-14T21:19:23Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-14T21:20:54Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-14T21:23:31Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-14T21:27:24Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-03-14T21:32:02Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-03-14T21:34:11Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-14T21:40:14Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-03-14T21:43:37Z megalography joined #lisp 2020-03-14T21:48:07Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2020-03-14T21:49:12Z shidima quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-14T21:59:34Z xlei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-14T22:06:20Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-14T22:07:10Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-14T22:18:39Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T22:20:29Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T22:21:30Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-14T22:21:39Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T22:21:40Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-14T22:24:47Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T22:31:13Z xlei joined #lisp 2020-03-14T22:32:26Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T22:35:51Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-14T22:37:24Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-03-14T22:41:23Z z147 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T22:43:26Z aamukastemato joined #lisp 2020-03-14T22:45:34Z aamukastemato quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-14T22:54:20Z dale joined #lisp 2020-03-14T22:54:45Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-03-14T22:58:33Z C_Keen quit (Changing host) 2020-03-14T22:58:33Z C_Keen joined #lisp 2020-03-14T22:58:35Z C_Keen is now known as C-Keen 2020-03-14T23:00:50Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T23:01:14Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-03-14T23:07:24Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-03-14T23:11:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T23:12:00Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-14T23:12:33Z madage joined #lisp 2020-03-14T23:16:41Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-14T23:18:06Z mrcom quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2020-03-14T23:18:32Z mrcom joined #lisp 2020-03-14T23:21:14Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-14T23:24:59Z megalography left #lisp 2020-03-14T23:25:59Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-14T23:26:05Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-14T23:31:54Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-03-14T23:46:13Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-14T23:48:39Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-14T23:49:02Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-03-14T23:53:01Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-14T23:54:01Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2020-03-14T23:54:33Z HiRE: howdy everyone 2020-03-14T23:55:02Z no-defun-allowed: g'day 2020-03-14T23:55:30Z HiRE: I had a dumb idea but I thought it'd be a fun thought experiment. How would someone write a C compiler in common lisp? Ignoring the fact no one would ever do this - I'm curious how you could generate an executable with it. 2020-03-14T23:55:47Z HiRE: the lexing part seems straight forward 2020-03-14T23:55:59Z HiRE: through the magic of symbols 2020-03-14T23:56:33Z no-defun-allowed: What are your requirements for the "generated executable"? 2020-03-14T23:56:40Z _death: it's already been done, HiRE 2020-03-14T23:56:57Z no-defun-allowed: The lousiest way would be to generate Lisp functions, then do something like (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die ... :toplevel #'c-code:main) 2020-03-14T23:57:19Z HiRE: oh I should be specific. Generate an ELF executable. 2020-03-14T23:57:37Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-14T23:57:41Z HiRE: death, do you have a link? I'd love to look at it 2020-03-14T23:57:47Z _death: HiRE: https://cliki.net/Zeta-C 2020-03-14T23:57:51Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, s-l-a-d does that. 2020-03-14T23:58:24Z HiRE: oh cool how interesting 2020-03-14T23:59:02Z HiRE: wow zeta C has been around forever 2020-03-14T23:59:09Z HiRE: according to the comp.lang.scheme post 2020-03-15T00:00:12Z HiRE: I was kind of curious how they would solve pointers and what-not 2020-03-15T00:00:25Z HiRE: because at least as far as my lisp experience has gone, there's no easy way to address unsafe memory in lisp. 2020-03-15T00:01:39Z _death: you could just allocate a huge (sparse?) array and represent pointers as indices to it 2020-03-15T00:03:03Z HiRE: that makes sense since you'd be relying on the backing of lisp anyway. One thing the usenet post mentioned was zeta C cut a few corners like implementing ints and longs as lisp numbers so bignums existed magically without any extra work 2020-03-15T00:03:09Z HiRE: which is _really_ cool but also not standard C 2020-03-15T00:04:11Z HiRE: After reading that paper on a lisp operating system I got to thinking about how you'd implement all the little things. One of the things on my list would be a decent C compiler since a ton of good software is in C and rewriting it would be a nightmare. 2020-03-15T00:04:52Z oni-on-ion: delicious C with numeric tower and macros and repl. with ECL its potentially easier to CL->C 2020-03-15T00:05:10Z oni-on-ion: oh 2020-03-15T00:05:49Z oni-on-ion: i think that kernel drivers might be more of a nightmare 2020-03-15T00:06:01Z _death: HiRE: well, the cliki entry also mentions vacietis, which should work (sans bitrot?) 2020-03-15T00:06:17Z oni-on-ion: CL is immune to bitrot =P 2020-03-15T00:07:10Z HiRE: yeah I thought that kernel drivers and process management would be dissertation worthy exercises 2020-03-15T00:07:26Z _death: ah yes, it's in quicklisp, so likely works 2020-03-15T00:07:36Z HiRE: bootstrapping it might require C? 2020-03-15T00:07:41Z HiRE: or at least some ASM I would guess. 2020-03-15T00:07:46Z _death: hmm, or maybe not 2020-03-15T00:08:09Z Bike: sometimes when people talk about lisp operating systems they mean something managed, so you couldn't just run random C code 2020-03-15T00:08:13Z Bike: this is the case for SICL for example 2020-03-15T00:08:22Z Bike: (i'm pretty sure, at least) 2020-03-15T00:08:40Z HiRE: What would a managed operating system entail? I figured the OS would have a baseline requirement of ring 0 2020-03-15T00:09:03Z HiRE: unless I guess you wrote a small bootstrap kernel VM and ran the thing on top of it... 2020-03-15T00:09:18Z _death: ok, this works (let ((*readtable* vacietis:c-readtable) (vacietis:*compiler-state* (vacietis:make-compiler-state))) (read-from-string "int foo(int x, int y) { return x + y; }")) 2020-03-15T00:09:21Z Bike: well, i mean, in that some of the safety is due to the compiler rather than the runtime 2020-03-15T00:09:53Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-15T00:10:05Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singularity_(operating_system) is the working example i'm vaguely aware of 2020-03-15T00:10:44Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-15T00:13:13Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-15T00:13:14Z bendersteed quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-15T00:13:32Z aeth: An alternate approach you could use for a C compiler is to use CFFI data structures as your compilation target, if that's complete enough. 2020-03-15T00:13:48Z aeth: It would be just as unsafe as C, of course, and it would be slower than C because of the overhead of CFFI 2020-03-15T00:15:38Z oni-on-ion: aha 2020-03-15T00:15:46Z HiRE: ah yeah, since its a thought experiment I didnt consider safety 2020-03-15T00:15:54Z HiRE: just the question of how it'd be done 2020-03-15T00:16:42Z HiRE: oh interesting singularity works how I supposed above 2020-03-15T00:16:54Z HiRE: a small bootstrapped client has some stuff that then runs the kernel in a management environment 2020-03-15T00:16:56Z HiRE: thats really cool 2020-03-15T00:17:09Z HiRE: I wonder what kind of overhead you'd have with ring 0 garbage collection 2020-03-15T00:17:39Z Bike: that's kind of different. i mean there's no reason a lisp machine has to use a vm at all 2020-03-15T00:17:45Z no-defun-allowed: Not much. 2020-03-15T00:18:22Z froggey: Iota uses the "giant ub8 vector" approach for pointers. nothing weird or unsafe required 2020-03-15T00:18:36Z no-defun-allowed: If everything uses the same memory space, then you can "reuse" objects, so there would be less to collect. 2020-03-15T00:19:25Z no-defun-allowed: And, of course, you can set up the memory management unit however you want, so it could be somewhat more efficient than in a process. 2020-03-15T00:20:41Z HiRE: well yeah I'd suppose not. Symbolics stuff never used a VM but it did use specialized hardware. So eventually your abstraction would have to crack somewhere and you'd have to touch ASM or C I would guess. 2020-03-15T00:20:48Z HiRE: perhaps at the kernel device driver level 2020-03-15T00:21:03Z no-defun-allowed: Also of course, any overhead saved by not having garbage collection is probably reintroduced by having to copy data needlessly and programmers getting confused about who frees what. 2020-03-15T00:21:18Z Bike: probably just assembly 2020-03-15T00:21:31Z HiRE: my wonder with ring 0 GC was if you had something like stop the world garbage collection your entire OS could in theory grind to a halt for a short time 2020-03-15T00:21:35Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T00:22:15Z no-defun-allowed: Don't use a STW collector then. 2020-03-15T00:22:41Z buffergn0me: Vacietis should be portable Common Lisp (if not, it is a bug) 2020-03-15T00:23:00Z no-defun-allowed: Lisp machines had that problem, then reduced it significantly using incremental collection, and then generational collection. 2020-03-15T00:23:01Z buffergn0me: Jiyuno Megami's fork has some very interesting SBCL-specific functionality: https://github.com/jiyunomegami/Vacietis 2020-03-15T00:23:40Z _death: froggey: nice 2020-03-15T00:23:53Z froggey: assembly is only really needed for dealing with really weird parts of the machine and most of the time you can get away with thin wrappers around whatever feature is causing trouble 2020-03-15T00:24:01Z froggey: and for drivers the only primitives you need are some way to access memory & deal with interrupts 2020-03-15T00:24:07Z froggey: no C required anywhere 2020-03-15T00:26:02Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, you would just want to be able to call into Lisp from an interrupt and a few primitives for accessing memory and...were they ports in x86? x86 also has a "port" address space from memory. 2020-03-15T00:26:06Z buffergn0me: Also Vacietis can already generate stand-alone executables in the manner no-defun-allowed mentioned 2020-03-15T00:26:15Z GuerrillaMonkey joined #lisp 2020-03-15T00:26:50Z no-defun-allowed: I think those are ports. 2020-03-15T00:27:06Z HiRE: yah I think the term was ports 2020-03-15T00:27:20Z froggey: yeah. x86 has IO ports, accessed with special instructions ("in" and "out") 2020-03-15T00:27:23Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-15T00:27:24Z _death: no-defun-allowed: there are IN and OUT instructions for ports 2020-03-15T00:27:39Z no-defun-allowed: Yup. 2020-03-15T00:28:21Z buffergn0me: It should be possible to hack up a wrapper for ECL's c:build-static-library to make libraries 2020-03-15T00:28:27Z markong joined #lisp 2020-03-15T00:29:03Z no-defun-allowed: Contrast to 68k and friends, which only have memory mapped devices, and should have been the predominant architecture...grumble grumble. 2020-03-15T00:31:39Z buffergn0me: wrt to drivers, the reason I wrote Vacieties was to enable no-change use of OpenBSD drivers in a future Lisp operating system (this was before Mezzano, or at least before I had heard of it, and after Movitz was abandoned) 2020-03-15T00:32:22Z markoong quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-15T00:32:46Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-15T00:32:47Z buffergn0me: NetBSD came up with very nice portable APIs for device drivers that OpenBSD largely adapted (OpenBSD has more drivers) 2020-03-15T00:34:05Z buffergn0me: Although NetBSD has RUMP which is basically this use case and should make things easier 2020-03-15T00:34:32Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - 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https://znc.in) 2020-03-15T02:54:03Z noobineer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-15T02:54:30Z cg505 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T02:55:37Z ahungry joined #lisp 2020-03-15T03:05:10Z semz joined #lisp 2020-03-15T03:05:10Z semz quit (Changing host) 2020-03-15T03:05:10Z semz joined #lisp 2020-03-15T03:06:11Z KDr2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T03:08:48Z KDr2 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T03:10:41Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-15T03:10:55Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: port io is easier to implement in hw 2020-03-15T03:11:52Z Involuntary quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-15T03:12:02Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-03-15T03:18:31Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T03:23:14Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-15T03:29:09Z no-defun-allowed: In the processor or in the external logic? There would be decoding either way. 2020-03-15T03:29:38Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-15T03:30:03Z HiRE: hah I wrote a toy OS with a stupid command line a long time ago. A lisp OS is way outside my pay grade. My current paygrade is "can implement a stack and queue using CLOS" 2020-03-15T03:30:37Z HiRE: being a professional developer, I've realized its incredibly hard to spin up quickly to a language using your own ingenuity lol 2020-03-15T03:31:41Z HiRE: suppose I should just enjoy the journe 2020-03-15T03:31:42Z HiRE: y 2020-03-15T03:34:58Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, maybe it involves less decoding with an IO port pin. My reading of some PCI clients suggests that you end up using memory mapped IO for fast things like storage. 2020-03-15T03:36:41Z oni-on-ion: it is the Lisp Curse 2020-03-15T03:36:59Z no-defun-allowed: What? 2020-03-15T03:37:06Z oni-on-ion: "Lisp is so powerful that problems which are technical issues in other programming languages are social issues in Lisp" 2020-03-15T03:37:31Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, that. 2020-03-15T03:37:33Z oni-on-ion: needs people, a sangha of hackers =) 2020-03-15T03:38:44Z no-defun-allowed: That is a conspiracy made by the webshit companies to sell more web page---wait, no I'm supposed to be serious. No, but the author of that had little reason to comment on Lisp, and it's not as if it doesn't exist with other languages. 2020-03-15T03:39:44Z HiRE: its just a great language because it doesnt try to be anything 2020-03-15T03:39:56Z HiRE: I am really tired of the current trend of benevolent dictators for life 2020-03-15T03:39:57Z no-defun-allowed: You just have more that can be argued over, with macros, metaprogramming et al; but of course, you also get to have those features on the flip side. 2020-03-15T03:40:12Z no-defun-allowed: HiRE: Definitely. 2020-03-15T03:40:44Z HiRE: I consult professionally. Clients often _tell_ me what languages they want. 2020-03-15T03:40:59Z HiRE: usually its just 'cus 2020-03-15T03:41:09Z HiRE: im left asking why more often I than I prefer. 2020-03-15T03:41:27Z HiRE: Not that I'd force lisp on these people...but you have to wonder why a big company would prefer a walled garden over something more flexible. 2020-03-15T03:41:32Z oni-on-ion: what i get from that quote/curse, is that lisp programming is a social adventure. in reference to HiRE 's mention of "using one's own ingenuity" 2020-03-15T03:42:29Z no-defun-allowed: If you have enough slack in who you can work with, I would try not to give them an option. 2020-03-15T03:43:02Z HiRE: sometimes I get that option. However beach made a great point in don't write a check your butt cant cash. I can evangelize lisp but when things break I may not be able to fix it...yet 2020-03-15T03:43:26Z no-defun-allowed: Are your clients also programmers? 2020-03-15T03:43:48Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-03-15T03:43:51Z no-defun-allowed: You don't have to evangelize anything if they're not. 2020-03-15T03:43:57Z HiRE: yeah, I deal exclusively with tech companies. 2020-03-15T03:44:13Z HiRE: Unfortunately cracking the juicy government/state contract nut is a lot harder than it looks. 2020-03-15T03:44:56Z no-defun-allowed: Hm. If they have requirements, and you have requirements, and they don't fit, maybe you should find other clients. 2020-03-15T03:45:38Z HiRE: Well, I was thinking I might be able to push something like racket or clojure that is flavored like modern tech but lispy at its core. 2020-03-15T03:45:57Z HiRE: There's a lot of "if it's not used by FAANG+ its not good enough for us" 2020-03-15T03:46:18Z HiRE: sometimes you have to take work to eat...lol 2020-03-15T03:46:52Z HiRE: clojure was my current idea as a selling point because of interop with the JVM 2020-03-15T03:47:02Z HiRE: good intro to lisp for a client without much risk to their infra 2020-03-15T03:47:15Z oni-on-ion: hmm what's the "N"? 2020-03-15T03:47:25Z HiRE: I think it's supposed to be netflix 2020-03-15T03:47:28Z oni-on-ion: ahh 2020-03-15T03:47:40Z no-defun-allowed: What's the other letters? Facebook, Apple, another A...Google? 2020-03-15T03:47:49Z oni-on-ion: i wonder if that was an afterthought, considering the word without the N 2020-03-15T03:48:00Z HiRE: facebook apple amazon netfix google (+ everything-like-them) 2020-03-15T03:48:00Z oni-on-ion: amazon 2020-03-15T03:48:31Z oni-on-ion: ah nuts i had the two A's backwards. =) 2020-03-15T03:48:42Z no-defun-allowed: I dunno, are any clients even close to that scale? If not, I would just say that you probably have different techniques. 2020-03-15T03:50:05Z HiRE: hah, thats the funny part 2020-03-15T03:50:07Z HiRE: no not at all 2020-03-15T03:50:24Z HiRE: For example, I had a long engagement with a client who used golang for everything despite it being arguably the worst choice for everything. 2020-03-15T03:50:32Z HiRE: If you couldn't guess, their CTO was an ex-googler. 2020-03-15T03:50:42Z HiRE: small company, maybe 50MM rev and 100 employees. 2020-03-15T03:51:17Z HiRE: this is where my clojure play came in to my mind 2020-03-15T03:51:23Z HiRE: lots of them have ancient JVM backends 2020-03-15T03:51:30Z HiRE: no one wants to touch it, and its mostly managed by greybeards. 2020-03-15T03:51:39Z oni-on-ion: clojurescript uses google tools (one called, ironically, closure) 2020-03-15T03:51:45Z no-defun-allowed: One analogy I hear is that building a dog house is trivial, but building a larger building much less so; it's not like you can just scale it up by a factor of N. 2020-03-15T03:52:15Z HiRE: I did get one client to use cljs a while ago when clojure was a hot commodity. 2020-03-15T03:52:21Z HiRE: Thats where my interest in lisps really spurred. 2020-03-15T03:52:26Z oni-on-ion: also there is ABCL, no-defun-allowed 's favorite implementation 2020-03-15T03:52:37Z HiRE: Whats the difference between ABCL and SBCL? I use sbcl 2020-03-15T03:52:38Z no-defun-allowed: The reverse also works; your dog house doesn't need much in terms of stabilisation. 2020-03-15T03:52:52Z no-defun-allowed: ABCL runs on the JVM and is called "Armed Bear Common Lisp". 2020-03-15T03:53:06Z HiRE: oh thats incredible. I didnt know that. Sell me on it 2020-03-15T03:53:09Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL runs without a virtual machine and is called "Steel Banks Common Lisp". 2020-03-15T03:53:21Z HiRE: I know clojure so how would you compare abcl to clojure? 2020-03-15T03:53:46Z oni-on-ion: one bank 2020-03-15T03:53:54Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-15T03:54:06Z no-defun-allowed: From a philosophical POV, ABCL is still Lisp that happens to run on a JVM. Clojure is "Lisp" in Java. 2020-03-15T03:54:06Z oni-on-ion: abcl is the same lisp as sbcl -- clojure is its own thing 2020-03-15T03:54:18Z no-defun-allowed: Also, only the former is on topic :) 2020-03-15T03:54:25Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-03-15T03:55:18Z HiRE: oh ok, I see. I won't talk about clojure then :) 2020-03-15T03:55:22Z no-defun-allowed: By that, I mean ABCL implements just about all of ANSI Common Lisp on the JVM, diverging from Java, most notably in the object and condition systems and numeric tower in my opinion. 2020-03-15T03:55:24Z HiRE: so ABCL is a common lisp 2020-03-15T03:55:29Z HiRE: but on the JVM 2020-03-15T03:55:32Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks. I'm allergic to coffee. 2020-03-15T03:55:41Z HiRE: im sorry it must be tough being a developer :P 2020-03-15T03:55:55Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, ABCL is an implementation of Common Lisp on the Java virtual machine. 2020-03-15T03:56:28Z HiRE: thats a pretty slick idea tbh. As long as it compiles down to class files and jars there's zero risk to introducing it into a system 2020-03-15T03:56:32Z oni-on-ion: eww @ coffeescript. yay @ cappuccino (and objective-j) 2020-03-15T03:56:44Z HiRE: (coffeescript gives me PTSD) 2020-03-15T03:56:52Z no-defun-allowed: I don't program for money yet, and the Java I do know from university is just procedural code with "public class FileName { public static void main(String[] args) { ... } }" around it. 2020-03-15T03:57:31Z HiRE: Professionally speaking everything java project I've contracted with from about 2014 on was a mix of languages 2020-03-15T03:57:41Z Involuntary joined #lisp 2020-03-15T03:57:41Z HiRE: the JVM is a very powerful uniting force in development 2020-03-15T03:57:46Z HiRE: its very cool a common lisp runs on it 2020-03-15T03:57:51Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-15T03:58:19Z HiRE: by mix of languages I mean it was vanilla java, scala, some clojure, 2020-03-15T03:58:28Z HiRE: it didn't really matter as long as someone was maintaining it and it compiled. 2020-03-15T03:58:39Z HiRE: ABCL would be a VERY easy sell for me. 2020-03-15T03:58:42Z no-defun-allowed: The other main difference is that the FFI looks less normal. You write something like (java:jcall "methodName" subject arguments...) instead of (.methodName subject arguments), which is also much less funny. 2020-03-15T03:59:10Z HiRE: I feel like (java:jcall ...) seems better anyway 2020-03-15T03:59:21Z HiRE: (.instanceName args) feels super...weird 2020-03-15T03:59:36Z HiRE: methodName* 2020-03-15T03:59:44Z no-defun-allowed: I think the ABCL contrib package has a little reader macro that makes (#"methodName" subject arguments ...) work though. 2020-03-15T04:00:02Z HiRE: I guess that also jives with multiple dispatch sorta 2020-03-15T04:00:08Z HiRE: SORTA 2020-03-15T04:00:37Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-15T04:00:53Z HiRE: in the sense you get the same form (func-name (matcher match) args) kind of thing 2020-03-15T04:01:14Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion thinks ABCL is my favourite implementation because I've wrote substantially about getting ABCL to talk to Minecraft, for which I had to hack up some custom funcallable-instances to make deobsfucation and the interface feel right. 2020-03-15T04:02:10Z HiRE: I have no real preference. I use SBCL mostly because it seems fast and can compile to native code. 2020-03-15T04:02:20Z HiRE: which is a really weak reason to like it. 2020-03-15T04:02:25Z no-defun-allowed: That is very unnecessary unless you have to handle your own obfuscation, but making a package with wrapper functions so you can write (java-module:get-foo foo-having-thing) is cute. 2020-03-15T04:03:22Z HiRE: I also use SBCL because lispworks is expensive even if I use my student ID. 2020-03-15T04:03:45Z no-defun-allowed: (which ends up looking like ) 2020-03-15T04:04:27Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. Clozure Common Lisp and ECL both compile to machine code (the latter with C as an intermediate step), so you have other options for free/libre native-code implementations. 2020-03-15T04:06:03Z no-defun-allowed: The former has a compiler that does less optimisations, which is good if you're compiling a lot of code (which you rarely will), and subjectively nicer source code. 2020-03-15T04:06:40Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T04:07:52Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T04:07:58Z HiRE: I strangely like the idea of compiling to C as an intermediary step 2020-03-15T04:08:05Z HiRE: because you can leverage the decades of optimization in GCC/clang 2020-03-15T04:09:03Z oni-on-ion: plus emscripten =P 2020-03-15T04:09:18Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think it works well in practice. aeth would say something like, "C compilers optimize C idioms well, generating C rarely creates code that uses said idioms". 2020-03-15T04:09:57Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T04:10:33Z aeth: Right. 2020-03-15T04:11:44Z aeth: Even hardcore C/C++ fans will generally recommend LLVM IR instead of directly targeting C these days, except even that has issues. Clasp does this and has encountered quite a few problems that other CL implementations don't have to deal with, such as slow conditions (the CL equivalent of exceptions/errors) 2020-03-15T04:12:16Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-15T04:12:26Z aeth: C compilers are written for C/C++ semantics (usually they at the very least handle both languages these days) 2020-03-15T04:14:58Z aeth: Things that the C/C++ world doesn't think about but that can be done efficiently in ASM include multiple return values, which CL has. 2020-03-15T04:16:43Z aeth: That being said, ECL does compile to C and Clasp does compile to LLVM IR, so both approaches are used, they're just slower in practice than SBCL. There should probably be an FAQ, that includes this point. 2020-03-15T04:16:58Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T04:18:11Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-15T04:19:57Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2020-03-15T04:21:53Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-15T04:22:21Z HiRE: no-defun-allowed, thats a good point 2020-03-15T04:22:31Z HiRE: if you dont program to C idioms, the optimizer may not optimize right. 2020-03-15T04:22:51Z HiRE: also makes sense aeth 2020-03-15T04:23:40Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-15T04:27:44Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-03-15T04:35:47Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-15T04:42:50Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-15T04:44:02Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-03-15T04:45:05Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-15T04:45:27Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-03-15T04:47:42Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-15T04:48:08Z aeth: good morning beach 2020-03-15T05:00:45Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-15T05:01:00Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-15T05:07:17Z moon-child is now known as AlexaBot 2020-03-15T05:07:22Z AlexaBot is now known as moon-child 2020-03-15T05:08:20Z libertyprime quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-03-15T05:12:54Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-15T05:23:51Z tourjin joined #lisp 2020-03-15T05:23:55Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-03-15T05:24:05Z tourjin quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-15T05:27:52Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: port io is simple on the external logic and on implementing channel DMA 2020-03-15T05:28:06Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: decoding logic is also greatly simplified 2020-03-15T05:30:35Z p_l: works pretty similar to SPI if you made it 8/16 bit wide 2020-03-15T05:31:24Z no-defun-allowed: Right. 2020-03-15T05:32:37Z tourjin joined #lisp 2020-03-15T05:32:53Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: also, it's very, very easy to make channel DMA capability with ISA port IO. no need to busmaster etc, 2020-03-15T05:33:31Z tourjin: how can I check if I have sb-grovel ? 2020-03-15T05:36:08Z Involuntary quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-15T05:40:50Z equwal: (in-package :sb-grovel) 2020-03-15T05:41:17Z equwal: (find-package :sb-grovell) 2020-03-15T05:41:31Z equwal: (find-package :sb-grovel) 2020-03-15T05:53:15Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-15T05:57:52Z spacedbat quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2020-03-15T05:58:09Z spacedbat joined #lisp 2020-03-15T06:05:37Z tourjin: am I connected? 2020-03-15T06:05:52Z beach: Apparently, yes. 2020-03-15T06:06:20Z tourjin: ok how can I check If I have sb-grovel? 2020-03-15T06:06:41Z beach: equwal told you. 2020-03-15T06:07:43Z tourjin: oh.. I did'nt see that. thanks 2020-03-15T06:17:51Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T06:21:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T06:21:13Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-15T06:22:26Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-15T06:23:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-15T06:23:40Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T06:43:59Z akoana left #lisp 2020-03-15T06:52:38Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-15T06:55:17Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-15T06:56:26Z tourjin: cl-user> prompt changes to sb-grovel> when I invoke (in-package :sb-grovel). is this normal? and if I type it in emacs slime I have # but I type it from sbcl I get nil. why do I have different answer? and why my prompt changes ? 2020-03-15T06:56:38Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2020-03-15T06:57:20Z no-defun-allowed: Yep, totally normal. 2020-03-15T06:58:18Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-15T06:58:30Z no-defun-allowed: The prompt does indeed take the name of the current package. 2020-03-15T06:58:38Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-15T06:58:40Z tourjin: i see. 2020-03-15T06:59:03Z no-defun-allowed: I cannot replicate "typing [the IN-PACKAGE form and getting] nil" though. 2020-03-15T06:59:26Z equwal: Try (make-package :safe) (in-package :safe) 2020-03-15T07:00:22Z White_Flame: tourjin: it's in the manual: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#sb_002dgrovel 2020-03-15T07:00:58Z tourjin: thank you all. 2020-03-15T07:02:21Z White_Flame: but yeah, find-package will tell you if it's present or not 2020-03-15T07:02:30Z White_Flame: something in SLIME is probably pulling it in, while the default cmdline startup doesn't 2020-03-15T07:03:21Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: Hard to say immediately. I think MIT LOOP generates the former for (LOOP .... COLLECT ...) though. 2020-03-15T07:03:58Z no-defun-allowed: However, I also heard the latter had more cache-friendly properties, but caches are above my paygrade. 2020-03-15T07:07:07Z no-defun-allowed: Some lousy testing suggests that RPLACD'ing the end of a list with new conses is about 10% faster than PUSHing then NREVERSE on SBCL. 2020-03-15T07:07:48Z no-defun-allowed: Same result on Clozure. 2020-03-15T07:08:01Z Telior joined #lisp 2020-03-15T07:08:13Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-15T07:08:56Z no-defun-allowed: Ah, that's why you said setcar. 2020-03-15T07:09:56Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know the performance characteristics of elisp. 2020-03-15T07:10:05Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I don't see the utterance by LdBeth that you are commenting on. 2020-03-15T07:10:24Z no-defun-allowed: "will construct a list from head to tail with a reference using setcar/setcdr more performant than simply calling push and nreverse?" 2020-03-15T07:10:58Z beach: OK, but where was it uttered? 2020-03-15T07:11:23Z no-defun-allowed: Here, about 10 minutes ago. 2020-03-15T07:11:28Z jeosol joined #lisp 2020-03-15T07:11:30Z beach: Hmm. 2020-03-15T07:12:03Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: I think something between you, matrix, the IRC bridge and #lisp is broken. 2020-03-15T07:12:36Z beach: It didn't make it here and it didn't make it to the logs by Colleen either. 2020-03-15T07:12:55Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-15T07:15:00Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-03-15T07:15:07Z no-defun-allowed: Strangely, I'm not surprised. The bridge operators and Freenode operators aren't on the best of terms, in my opinion which is formed from a brief discussion with a bridge operator, as the bridge has to open one connection per user. Then the bridge runs out of connections. 2020-03-15T07:15:34Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: I saw it, but the tymoon log didn't. 2020-03-15T07:16:16Z ldb: so I pumped up my irssi client 2020-03-15T07:18:58Z no-defun-allowed: It does appear you did. 2020-03-15T07:23:16Z no-defun-allowed: What you missed was: "will construct a list from head to tail with a reference using setcar/setcdr more performant than simply calling push and nreverse?" "with emacs's lisp byte-compiler I can only get the former close to the later but still slower, so I'd blame that emacs's byte code has some overhead" then some confusion about something dropping messages. 2020-03-15T07:24:56Z Telior quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-15T07:29:35Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-03-15T07:38:57Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T07:39:29Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2020-03-15T07:40:48Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-15T07:47:55Z equwal: I can't see LdBeth's messages, but he is in the names 2020-03-15T07:48:07Z dale quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep) 2020-03-15T07:54:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T07:56:14Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-15T08:12:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T08:14:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-15T08:14:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T08:18:10Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-03-15T08:18:51Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T08:19:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-15T08:22:50Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-15T08:23:31Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-15T08:31:25Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-03-15T08:42:58Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-15T08:45:02Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-15T08:50:15Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-15T08:51:51Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-03-15T08:59:28Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-15T09:00:54Z adam4567 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T09:02:43Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-15T09:02:58Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-03-15T09:04:00Z dmiles quit 2020-03-15T09:06:18Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T09:06:23Z Gnuxie[m]: Yes the bridge is 1 connection per user 2020-03-15T09:06:24Z adam4567 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T09:06:56Z no-defun-allowed: Gnuxie 💜🐝: I can read your messages from Colleen's log, so... 2020-03-15T09:07:25Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: Congratulations! You are today's winner of the connection limit lottery! Your prize is that you don't get to write anything to IRC. 2020-03-15T09:11:04Z equwal: Does "the matrix" refer to matrix.org? And what does that have to do with the #lisp freenode irc? 2020-03-15T09:11:41Z equwal: I'm not clear on the details of this stuff. Can someone donate a bridge if they desire to so LdBeth can submit messages? 2020-03-15T09:11:48Z aeth: matrix does a bridge thing to IRC, and basically acts as a bouncer+client 2020-03-15T09:11:51Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, "Matrix" is matrix.org 2020-03-15T09:12:09Z equwal: So it is the mistake of LdBeth to use that service rather than just connecting to freenode...right? 2020-03-15T09:12:53Z no-defun-allowed: Someone decided the poor souls on it (myself, LdBeth included) needed to be able to communicate with non-Matrix groups, and wrote a bridge which relays messages between Matrix and IRC. 2020-03-15T09:13:00Z jackdaniel: whether it is mistake or not is a question which belongs somewhere else 2020-03-15T09:13:32Z jackdaniel: let's just settle on a fact, that some messages does not arrive from that network 2020-03-15T09:14:22Z equwal: Can I run this bridge on my debian server? I can understand the desire to avoid setting up one's own bouncer -- it is a huge pain. 2020-03-15T09:14:30Z no-defun-allowed: As every user must have a separate connection to the network, and I believe there is only one bridge server, the operator probably has hit a connection limit. 2020-03-15T09:15:04Z equwal: But I'd rather setup my own bouncer than not be able to send messages, LOL. 2020-03-15T09:15:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T09:15:16Z no-defun-allowed: equwal: Do you want to use IRC from Matrix? It's a bouncer that converts protocols, so you would probably be better served with IRC-only software. 2020-03-15T09:15:18Z jackdaniel: equwal: please move this Q/A session to lispcafe or somewhere else mroe appropriate 2020-03-15T09:15:25Z jackdaniel: no-defun-allowed: same applies to you 2020-03-15T09:15:25Z dmiles joined #lisp 2020-03-15T09:15:53Z equwal: jackdaniel: we did this here because a regular cannot send messages, seemed relevant. 2020-03-15T09:16:07Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-15T09:16:19Z jackdaniel: we've concluded that he can't, we do not discuss here "how to configure irssi", how to "start irc client" etc 2020-03-15T09:16:28Z no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/ralt/nyx claims to be an IRC bouncer in Lisp. Anyone used that? 2020-03-15T09:16:44Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-15T09:20:16Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-15T09:20:45Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-15T09:21:03Z ebrasca: Morning! 2020-03-15T09:24:54Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-15T09:26:29Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-15T09:27:20Z beach: Hello ebrasca. 2020-03-15T09:31:12Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-15T09:33:04Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-15T09:45:46Z fookara joined #lisp 2020-03-15T09:51:28Z equwal: I submitted a bug report to Matrix https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1008 2020-03-15T09:51:43Z equwal: I suggest not using their stuff ever. 2020-03-15T09:55:54Z easye: equwal: comments like "We at the #lisp channel kindly think you should use Common Lisp instead of your stack." will probably be counterproductive to helping address your issues. 2020-03-15T09:56:25Z easye: But I guess we all need our snark with our morning quark. 2020-03-15T09:57:22Z equwal: I guess I got enough flame in during the body of the thing. 2020-03-15T09:57:30Z aeth: I mean, it worked out well for the Rust community. In that, "Why don't you rewrite it in Rust?" literally became a meme. 2020-03-15T09:57:49Z equwal: We could adopt that strategy 2020-03-15T09:57:56Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-03-15T09:58:09Z equwal: Add it to every bug report you make 2020-03-15T09:58:40Z knicklux joined #lisp 2020-03-15T09:58:41Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-03-15T09:58:43Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-15T09:58:52Z aeth: When you learn a new programming language, you're less productive than when using a programming language you already know. For months. So suggestions to rewrite a project in another language will almost always be rejected, rationally, since it's irrational to do so. 2020-03-15T09:59:01Z aeth: Now, of course, lots of people will willingly be temporarily irrational. 2020-03-15T09:59:39Z equwal: That is like saying it is irrational to climb down from a low hill in order to cross a valley and go up a higher peak. 2020-03-15T09:59:59Z equwal: If you are trying to get really high, I would consider such a thing rational. 2020-03-15T10:00:39Z aeth: It's almost always too late to rewrite any already-existing, significant project. 2020-03-15T10:01:01Z equwal: I can agree with that. 2020-03-15T10:01:35Z aeth: Few are going to accept many months of no progress, perhaps a year or more, just to change non-user-visible details while ideally locking the API into a 100% stable state so that the rewrite can match the existing API/tests/etc. 2020-03-15T10:01:59Z aeth: Now, of course, someone else could write a compatible version in another language. 2020-03-15T10:02:05Z fookara quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-15T10:07:02Z ldb: no-defun-allowed: i can send via irssi. it's just my laptop can't have a stable irc connection 2020-03-15T10:13:58Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2020-03-15T10:16:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T10:19:33Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-15T10:19:46Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T10:20:31Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-15T10:24:26Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-15T10:26:43Z tourjin: l (sb-grovel::foreign-nullp dirent) shows me error message like this . The function SB-GROVEL::FOREIGN-NULLP has been deprecated as of SBCL version 1.2.15. 2020-03-15T10:26:43Z tourjin: Use SB-ALIEN:NULL-ALIEN instead. so I changed it (sb-alien:null-alien dirent) but still shows error message. what did I miss? 2020-03-15T10:26:50Z tourjin: https://bpaste.net/BGOK2 2020-03-15T10:27:52Z no-defun-allowed: I can't tell, you have )s floating in mid air. 2020-03-15T10:31:26Z no-defun-allowed: And I didn't get an error evaluating the form you claim signals an error. 2020-03-15T10:34:07Z no-defun-allowed: tourjin: Do you need to use FFI to do this? 2020-03-15T10:36:05Z no-defun-allowed: You can probably do that with (directory (make-pathname :directory directory-name :name :wild :type :wild)) 2020-03-15T10:37:21Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-03-15T10:37:26Z nitrix joined #lisp 2020-03-15T10:41:50Z tourjin: ; printed 3 notes 2020-03-15T10:42:24Z no-defun-allowed: What notes? 2020-03-15T10:43:28Z tourjin: anyway somehow i can get file lists. 2020-03-15T10:44:14Z tourjin: https://bpaste.net/VZDGM 2020-03-15T10:44:27Z tourjin: those messages. 2020-03-15T10:45:46Z no-defun-allowed: Do you need to use SB-ALIEN and SB-POSIX to get a directory listing? 2020-03-15T10:46:34Z no-defun-allowed: I don't believe you touch SB-GROVEL at all, either. 2020-03-15T10:46:44Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-15T10:48:01Z Shinmera: Is this an alt of that other dude that just tried to do things with FFI for no reason without knowing any lisp at all and never took advice either 2020-03-15T10:55:23Z no-defun-allowed: tourjin: Stop sending me private messages. 2020-03-15T10:55:48Z tourjin: i see. sorry for that. 2020-03-15T10:58:38Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-03-15T11:05:48Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-15T11:08:26Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2020-03-15T11:11:14Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-15T11:16:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T11:21:16Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-15T11:26:21Z retropikzel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T11:27:00Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2020-03-15T11:34:57Z markoong joined #lisp 2020-03-15T11:38:50Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-15T11:42:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T11:43:50Z tourjin: shinmera i saw the advice from no-defun-allowed introduced me. 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madrik quit (Quit: Sleep) 2020-03-15T18:07:15Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-03-15T18:07:23Z HiRE: hello 2020-03-15T18:07:52Z oni-on-ion: hi =) 2020-03-15T18:08:37Z luni left #lisp 2020-03-15T18:22:34Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T18:23:26Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T18:25:08Z equwal: high 2020-03-15T18:25:17Z equwal: :-) 2020-03-15T18:26:58Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-15T18:27:04Z oni-on-ion: =) 2020-03-15T18:27:22Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-15T18:28:19Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-15T18:31:09Z bendersteed left #lisp 2020-03-15T18:39:16Z seisatsu quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T18:39:16Z tumdum quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T18:39:16Z dlowe quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T18:39:16Z quantico quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T18:39:22Z quantico_ joined #lisp 2020-03-15T18:39:51Z tumdum joined #lisp 2020-03-15T18:39:52Z seisatsu joined #lisp 2020-03-15T18:39:53Z tumdum quit (Changing host) 2020-03-15T18:39:53Z tumdum joined #lisp 2020-03-15T18:40:02Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-15T18:41:18Z dlowe_ joined #lisp 2020-03-15T18:44:09Z HiRE: I wish I could live in emacs but I could never get the irc thing to work well enogh for me 2020-03-15T18:44:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T18:44:31Z HiRE: also shoving passwords into a git repo feels bad 2020-03-15T18:44:48Z HiRE: (I store my configs in a git repo for ez reconfig - I reinstall my OS like 6 times a year) 2020-03-15T18:45:21Z MichaelRaskin: You could put there code to load the password from some encrypted FS 2020-03-15T18:45:34Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-03-15T18:45:48Z HiRE: I was thinking that or doing something like `private.el` and loading that. Then just (setq irc-password xyz) or whatever from there. 2020-03-15T18:46:02Z HiRE: the encrypted FS sounds better though 2020-03-15T18:46:07Z HiRE: how would I go about doing that 2020-03-15T18:46:34Z Shinmera: However you would, it's definitely off topic. 2020-03-15T18:46:44Z HiRE: I figured emacs and lisp are friendly 2020-03-15T18:46:46Z HiRE: lol 2020-03-15T18:46:58Z HiRE: oh well 2020-03-15T18:53:26Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T18:53:56Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-15T19:02:27Z equwal: Go to #emacs, they like emacs there I've heard 2020-03-15T19:08:52Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-15T19:13:59Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-15T19:14:57Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T19:15:27Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-15T19:15:39Z bitmapper quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T19:22:49Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-15T19:26:49Z aeth: ##lisp has a looser topic, this channel is Common Lisp 2020-03-15T19:27:28Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T19:27:57Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-15T19:36:31Z thonkpod quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T19:36:31Z jfb4 quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T19:36:31Z Odin- quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T19:36:45Z Odin- joined #lisp 2020-03-15T19:37:06Z thonkpod joined #lisp 2020-03-15T19:37:13Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-15T19:37:34Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-15T19:37:38Z citizenajb joined #lisp 2020-03-15T19:38:13Z jfb4 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T19:49:16Z equwal notices aeth is in ##lisp right now 2020-03-15T19:52:11Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-15T20:01:00Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:02:01Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:13:36Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:14:38Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-15T20:14:55Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:19:14Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:19:29Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-15T20:21:54Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7) 2020-03-15T20:24:23Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-15T20:24:29Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:29:31Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-15T20:30:15Z swflint quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T20:30:15Z ult quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T20:30:15Z Blkt quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T20:30:15Z null_ptr quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T20:30:15Z lbtjp quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T20:30:15Z vydd quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T20:30:15Z jackhill quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T20:30:15Z gabc quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T20:30:15Z eagleflo quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T20:30:15Z drot quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T20:30:15Z abbe quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-15T20:30:21Z vydd joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:30:22Z gabc_ joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:30:26Z eagleflo joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:30:26Z abbe joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:30:28Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:30:30Z Blkt joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:30:35Z jackhill joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:30:40Z lbtjp joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:30:47Z ult joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:30:52Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2020-03-15T20:31:21Z null_ptr joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:32:13Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:34:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-15T20:40:57Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-03-15T20:43:31Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-15T21:00:21Z krid joined #lisp 2020-03-15T21:05:23Z izh_ joined #lisp 2020-03-15T21:08:56Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-15T21:21:06Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-03-15T21:39:02Z dale joined #lisp 2020-03-15T21:39:14Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-15T21:41:36Z grumpyvegetable: Does CL have a help menu embedded in the interpreter like Python does? 2020-03-15T21:42:43Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-15T21:43:07Z aeth: CL uses DESCRIBE for interactive help, but the quality of DESCRIBE for the built-ins depends on the implementation and is fairly poor outside of the commercial implementations afaik. Generally, people use the HyperSpec or some processed form of the HyperSpec to be embedded into your IDE. Some implementations even launch the HyperSpec when you do DESCRIBE on a built-in. 2020-03-15T21:43:12Z aeth: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm 2020-03-15T21:44:05Z aeth: Note that that is a very early webpage that has basically only been updated once since its 1996 launch, to remove the colored background and change the icons from purple to light blue. 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Anywhere.) 2020-03-15T23:17:43Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-15T23:23:00Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-03-15T23:23:29Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2020-03-15T23:28:48Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-15T23:32:55Z davisr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-15T23:33:24Z davisr joined #lisp 2020-03-15T23:42:00Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-03-15T23:44:06Z ldb: aeth: I suspect grumpyvegetable means :help in CCL or :h in CLISP 2020-03-15T23:45:17Z aeth: ah 2020-03-15T23:47:04Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-15T23:47:15Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-15T23:48:23Z ldb: Can the link to HyperSpec in CLISP patched to use a local copy instead? 2020-03-15T23:50:22Z grumpyvegetable: I mean like how you can type help() at a python terminal and pretty much learn whatever you need to know 2020-03-15T23:50:23Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-15T23:50:29Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-03-15T23:52:03Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-15T23:55:15Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-16T00:03:11Z republican_devil joined #lisp 2020-03-16T00:03:18Z republican_devil is now known as nationalist_devl 2020-03-16T00:03:32Z nationalist_devl: anyone doing big data anlytics with lisp? 2020-03-16T00:05:24Z aeth: these are probably most likely to be "secret" Lisp projects, rather then publicized ones 2020-03-16T00:06:03Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-16T00:06:19Z aeth: grumpyvegetable, ldb: okay, then that is a lot like DESCRIBE except if DESCRIBE locked you into a mode 2020-03-16T00:07:03Z aeth: well, help() itself locks you into a mode where you just type "str", but help(str) just describes the string class (that was its example) at the REPL 2020-03-16T00:07:27Z aeth: grumpyvegetable: If it's just generated from docstrings, then it's very similar to CL's describe, which is also a language with docstrings 2020-03-16T00:07:32Z aeth: Afaik, Python basically took the docstrings from CL 2020-03-16T00:08:16Z aeth: DESCRIBE on built-ins isn't very good. Someone needs to write some high-quality, public domain documentation that every implementation can just use for those IMO. 2020-03-16T00:08:30Z aeth: Some libraries might have comparable-to-Python's-help() levels of detail, though 2020-03-16T00:08:40Z Bike: shouldn't it be documentation rather than describe 2020-03-16T00:08:49Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-03-16T00:11:08Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-03-16T00:11:19Z heisig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-16T00:19:51Z HiRE: I wonder how well CL would run a rpi 4 b+ 2020-03-16T00:19:53Z HiRE: I have one sitting here 2020-03-16T00:19:56Z HiRE: doing nothing 2020-03-16T00:20:20Z HiRE: deployed one for a pihole, I should make this one into a home automation thing 2020-03-16T00:20:50Z aeth: Well, implementations are most full featured on x86-64, like most niche languages whose niches don't include mobile apps. 2020-03-16T00:21:01Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-16T00:21:11Z aeth: So you might have some issues on ARM, although ARM64 will probably avoid some of those 2020-03-16T00:21:18Z HiRE: pi 4b+ is arm 64 2020-03-16T00:21:24Z HiRE: seems SBCL has an older compiler available. 2020-03-16T00:21:27Z HiRE: 1.4.2 2020-03-16T00:21:36Z aeth: iirc, the default OS itself for Pi's is still 32-bit 2020-03-16T00:21:43Z HiRE: oh thats crap 2020-03-16T00:21:47Z HiRE: I'll need to look into that 2020-03-16T00:22:18Z aeth: A lot of people in the C world have the attitude that if it's not addressing > 4 GB RAM, then 32-bit is OK... but in the CL world, 64-bit has advantages that don't really matter to C programmers, like fewer tagged types 2020-03-16T00:22:49Z HiRE: could you elaborate? This is something I've never had to consider. 2020-03-16T00:22:56Z HiRE: I mean I understand the C argument 2020-03-16T00:23:00Z HiRE: but fewer tagged types im not following 2020-03-16T00:23:17Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-16T00:23:27Z p_l: HiRE: it's perfectly possible to run 64bit on Pi, it's just that Raspbian is 32bit as it wants to keep compatibility with first two versions 2020-03-16T00:23:37Z aeth: In the typical CL implementation, types are tagged. That is, if they don't fit in a word with the type tag included, then they have to be heap allocated even when they wouldn't be in a fully-static language like C. This is "boxing", a term originally from Java iirc. 2020-03-16T00:23:59Z HiRE: oh tagged types are like boxing - makes sense. If it doesnt fit tag it and heap allocate it that way we know what it is. 2020-03-16T00:24:06Z aeth: A 32-bit implementation boxes single-floats. A 64-bit implementation only boxes double-floats. 2020-03-16T00:24:10Z p_l: HiRE: it's easier to fit more tags while keeping usable data when your word size is 64bit than 32bit 2020-03-16T00:24:39Z HiRE: interesting...I thought floats would fit in a 32 bit register 2020-03-16T00:24:48Z HiRE: I guess you have arbitrary precision to worry about 2020-03-16T00:25:04Z Bike: the point is that tags mean you only have, say, 30 bits to work with 2020-03-16T00:25:10Z Bike: so obviously you can't fit a 32 bit float in there 2020-03-16T00:25:13Z aeth: 64-bit SBCL (at least on x86-64) uses 1 bit to tag a fixnum so its non-bignum integers can express 63 bit signed bytes or 62 bit unsigned bytes. This is the theoretical maximum of expressiveness for this implementation approach. For 32-bit, the maximum is 30-bit unsigned and 31-bit signed, but even SBCL doesn't do this. 2020-03-16T00:25:19Z HiRE: ah yes, you need a few bits for the tag. 2020-03-16T00:25:24Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-16T00:25:40Z aeth: So when you're losing like 4-5 bits, it suddenly matters a lot... 32-bit implementations have tiny fixnums 2020-03-16T00:25:51Z HiRE: What would be the need for SBCL to use such a large tag in 32 bit? 2020-03-16T00:26:03Z aeth: And limits of everything are usually expressed in unsigned (the top half of) fixnums, e.g. array lengths, etc... 2020-03-16T00:26:42Z aeth: HiRE: I'm guessing that 32-bit is considered "legacy" (since SBCL is x86-first) so they just never bothered to optimize the tag bit to 1 like in 64-bit, but I'm not sure if there's a more serious blocker. 2020-03-16T00:27:17Z aeth: even still, (- (expt 2 30) 1) is tiny while (- (expt 2 62) 1) is probably good enough for most people 2020-03-16T00:27:30Z HiRE: yeah the other thing I am contending with is I probably wont need arbitrary precision 2020-03-16T00:27:37Z HiRE: my use would be something dumb like automating watering my garden 2020-03-16T00:27:52Z aeth: Oh, and since the limits of things depend on fixnums, you can't fill 4 GB of RAM in one array, since arrays have limits. 2020-03-16T00:27:57Z aeth: You'd probably need 4+ arrays 2020-03-16T00:28:03Z HiRE: CL would be nice because I could just create a DSL for watering plants and modify it on the fly. 2020-03-16T00:28:08Z p_l: HiRE: Common Lisp implementations using tagged 32bit words is why X11 IDs are 29 bit 2020-03-16T00:28:59Z HiRE: this is interesting. Im sure that is in the grimoire of SBCL somewhere 2020-03-16T00:29:17Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-16T00:30:30Z p_l: more X11. At the time when such a decision was made, I think the latest was CMUCL, then-recently renamed from SPICE Lisp 2020-03-16T00:32:41Z HiRE: and SBCL is a direct decendent of CMUCL right 2020-03-16T00:35:49Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-16T00:37:23Z no-defun-allowed: Yes. 2020-03-16T00:43:09Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-16T00:44:18Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-16T00:46:56Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-03-16T00:48:42Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-16T00:49:10Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-16T00:51:59Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-16T00:52:06Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-03-16T01:04:46Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-16T01:11:46Z Necktwi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-16T01:13:41Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-16T01:16:59Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-16T01:18:34Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-16T01:22:15Z lemoinem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-16T01:22:51Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2020-03-16T01:30:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-16T01:32:16Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-16T01:35:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-16T01:37:12Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-16T01:41:02Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-03-16T01:48:22Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2020-03-16T01:50:26Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-16T01:50:48Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-16T02:00:37Z akoana left #lisp 2020-03-16T02:06:55Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-03-16T02:08:08Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-16T02:16:06Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-03-16T02:21:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-16T02:22:10Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-16T02:23:16Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-16T02:27:17Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-16T02:27:54Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-16T02:29:22Z KDr2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-16T02:32:36Z HiRE: https://www.dreamsongs.com/WIB.html 2020-03-16T02:32:42Z HiRE: 2 articles on CL on hacker news today 2020-03-16T02:37:00Z Involuntary joined #lisp 2020-03-16T02:38:12Z ldb quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-16T02:39:28Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-16T02:40:00Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-16T02:41:28Z Involuntary quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-16T02:41:39Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-03-16T02:42:25Z Lycurgus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-16T02:50:54Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-16T02:51:12Z earl-ducaine quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-03-16T02:53:15Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-16T02:55:00Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-16T02:57:17Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-16T03:02:52Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-16T03:03:26Z semz joined #lisp 2020-03-16T03:03:26Z semz quit (Changing host) 2020-03-16T03:03:26Z semz joined #lisp 2020-03-16T03:03:44Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-16T03:04:37Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-16T03:09:05Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-16T03:18:40Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-16T03:22:43Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-16T03:24:47Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-03-16T03:25:36Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-16T03:35:45Z KDr21 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-16T03:36:32Z oni-on-ion: ohhh 2020-03-16T03:36:55Z oni-on-ion: my favorite is "lisp, jazz, aikido" 2020-03-16T03:37:24Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-16T03:44:25Z KDr21 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-16T03:46:01Z KDr21 joined #lisp 2020-03-16T03:48:49Z igemnace joined #lisp 2020-03-16T03:56:44Z alfonsox joined #lisp 2020-03-16T04:04:49Z ebzzry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-16T04:05:21Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-16T04:07:55Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-16T04:08:23Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-16T04:10:03Z krid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-16T04:10:08Z ebzzry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-16T04:19:43Z pilne quit (Quit: Now if you will excuse me, I have a giant ball of oil to throw out my window) 2020-03-16T04:22:25Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-03-16T04:24:38Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-03-16T04:25:45Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-03-16T04:35:24Z HiRE: morning beach 2020-03-16T04:35:59Z Bourne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-16T04:36:10Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-16T04:37:26Z beach: HiRE: A friend of mine says he always installs Ubuntu on the Raspberry Pi. 2020-03-16T04:38:38Z HiRE: Isnt raspian just a *buntu? 2020-03-16T04:39:08Z beach: I am afraid I don't know. He meant 64-bit Ubuntu though. 2020-03-16T04:41:39Z HiRE: ah yes I will have to try it 2020-03-16T04:41:57Z HiRE: I thought it would be a fun more simple project to try to automate something in my house before departing on a long journey to writing a library 2020-03-16T04:42:03Z HiRE: especially since I have the hardware sitting here doing nothing 2020-03-16T04:45:25Z beach: I had hoped the ARM architecture would be much simpler than that of x86-64, in which case I would have written a code generator for SICL, targeting the ARM, but I got discouraged reading the ARM documentation. 2020-03-16T04:51:42Z HiRE: ARM is MIPS right? 2020-03-16T04:51:43Z no-defun-allowed: Raspbian is based off Debian. 2020-03-16T04:51:54Z no-defun-allowed: It also diverges enough that Debian packages are unlikely to work on Raspbian. 2020-03-16T04:51:57Z beach: HiRE: I don't think so. 2020-03-16T04:52:07Z no-defun-allowed: No, ARM is a separate architecture. Do you mean RISC? 2020-03-16T04:52:19Z HiRE: In my compiler classes I never got to code generation implementation. By the time I hit grad school I was off in mathy computational geometry land :) 2020-03-16T04:52:22Z HiRE: RISC* 2020-03-16T04:52:23Z HiRE: yes 2020-03-16T04:52:24Z HiRE: sorry 2020-03-16T04:52:38Z no-defun-allowed: I'm sure there's less instructions than x86_64, but there's still quite many. 2020-03-16T04:52:57Z HiRE: would explain why SBCL hasnt updated their ARM64/ARM ports in a long time 2020-03-16T04:53:02Z beach: no-defun-allowed: "fewer". Less stuff, fewer things. 2020-03-16T04:53:03Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-16T04:53:03Z HiRE: perhaps its just significantly more difficult 2020-03-16T04:53:18Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Thanks, good point. 2020-03-16T04:53:57Z HiRE: I did some RISC work in my architecture classes and while it was contrived I found the assembly more pleasurable to write 2020-03-16T04:54:14Z HiRE: optimization however, is probably another thing entirely. 2020-03-16T04:54:41Z aeth joined #lisp 2020-03-16T04:54:47Z beach: From reading the documentation, I believe the ARM just barely qualifies as RISC. 2020-03-16T04:55:29Z beach: Add to that the multiple encoding schemes for the instructions. 2020-03-16T05:00:21Z ebzzry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-16T05:01:15Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2020-03-16T05:08:53Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-16T05:11:20Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-16T05:12:16Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-03-16T05:23:15Z g0d_shatter joined 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all 2020-03-16T13:29:42Z alfonsox: how do you guys convert string to float ? 2020-03-16T13:30:11Z flip214: alfonsox: there's a library called PARSE-FLOAT, available via quicklisp 2020-03-16T13:30:16Z MichaelRaskin: There is parse-number library 2020-03-16T13:30:26Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-16T13:31:25Z davepdot_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-16T13:31:25Z MichaelRaskin: Oh, didn't know parse-float exists 2020-03-16T13:31:53Z alfonsox: common-lisp, emacs, slime 2020-03-16T13:31:54Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-16T13:32:00Z alfonsox: can't find parse-float 2020-03-16T13:33:07Z alfonsox: I created simple program to calculate simple-interest 2020-03-16T13:33:19Z MichaelRaskin: https://github.com/soemraws/parse-float I guess 2020-03-16T13:33:50Z alfonsox: (defun calculate-interest (principle rate year) 2020-03-16T13:33:52Z alfonsox: (/ (* principle rate year) 100)) 2020-03-16T13:34:09Z alfonsox: and save it in simple-interest.lisp 2020-03-16T13:34:27Z alfonsox: using buildapp i have created native executable 2020-03-16T13:34:57Z alfonsox: when i tried to run programm like this 2020-03-16T13:35:01Z splittist: principal 2020-03-16T13:35:11Z alfonsox: $ ./simpleinterest 1000 15.0 1 2020-03-16T13:35:36Z tourjin joined #lisp 2020-03-16T13:36:04Z alfonsox: oops sorry for type 2020-03-16T13:36:07Z alfonsox: error 2020-03-16T13:36:36Z alfonsox: (CALCULATE-INTEREST ("./simpleinterest" "1000" "15" "1")) [external] 2020-03-16T13:36:51Z alfonsox: I think it may be treaing values as string 2020-03-16T13:38:58Z MichaelRaskin: It definitely is 2020-03-16T13:39:36Z MichaelRaskin: And it also gives you argument 0, how the program name was specified 2020-03-16T13:41:09Z splittist: alfonsox: what does your MAIN function look like? What does it do to ARGV? Are you doing this to explore building command-line apps, or common lisp? 2020-03-16T13:41:19Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-16T13:42:10Z alfonsox: command line apps 2020-03-16T13:42:22Z alfonsox: buildapp --load ../fun/simple-interest.lisp --entry calculate-interest --output simpleinterest 2020-03-16T13:42:31Z alfonsox: it has created a binary file with name 2020-03-16T13:42:50Z alfonsox: simple-interest 2020-03-16T13:42:59Z alfonsox: ./simpleinterest 1000 15 1 2020-03-16T13:44:37Z alfonsox: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/a3c650c6/ 2020-03-16T13:44:53Z alfonsox: I can run programm inside slime 2020-03-16T13:45:00Z splittist: right. Knowing nothing about buildapp, I imagine it is going to arrange to call your entry function with a list of strings, being the command-line arguments the executable was called with (including the name of the executable as the first element of the list). CALCULATE-INTEREST, however, does not accept such a list. 2020-03-16T13:46:00Z alfonsox: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/5ce418f9/ 2020-03-16T13:46:10Z alfonsox: this is the complete error i am getting 2020-03-16T13:46:42Z alfonsox: How do you guys created executable file using common lisp? 2020-03-16T13:46:58Z alfonsox: I am following this > https://www.cliki.net/Creating%20Executables 2020-03-16T13:47:01Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-16T13:47:25Z splittist: It is your responsibility as the application writer to give meaning to that list of strings. Looking at the buildapp web page, this seems correct. (This is also how every other language does things, as far as I know.) 2020-03-16T13:50:44Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-03-16T13:50:47Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-16T13:51:39Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-03-16T13:52:39Z phoe: alfonsox: I usually use Shinmera's deploy, https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy 2020-03-16T13:53:01Z phoe: You are running into type errors - the Unix shell passes arguments as strings, and you need to turn them into numbers if you want numbers 2020-03-16T13:53:27Z phoe: use the standard function PARSE-INTEGER if you want to get an integer from a string 2020-03-16T13:54:55Z LiamH joined #lisp 2020-03-16T13:55:00Z alfonsox: ok 2020-03-16T13:57:15Z Duuqnd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-16T14:04:51Z phoe: also, this kind of sounds like #clschool material 2020-03-16T14:12:30Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-16T14:20:39Z dddddd joined #lisp 2020-03-16T14:21:44Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-03-16T14:30:14Z cosimone joined #lisp 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argc, char** argv); ? 2020-03-16T16:55:44Z jmercouris: because I keep getting: The alien function "newqapplication" is undefined. 2020-03-16T16:58:32Z Bike: don't you need to give it the argument types? 2020-03-16T16:59:09Z Bike: for example the documentation gives (defcfun "strlen" :int (n :string)) 2020-03-16T16:59:09Z _death: you also need to use the right case 2020-03-16T16:59:17Z jmercouris: there are no arguments 2020-03-16T16:59:27Z izh_ joined #lisp 2020-03-16T16:59:30Z Bike: ...what are argc and argv? 2020-03-16T16:59:32Z jmercouris: do I have to therefore do something like |newQApplication|? 2020-03-16T16:59:39Z jmercouris: ah, damnit, how did I miss that 2020-03-16T16:59:46Z jmercouris: I'm sorry, I changed the prototype and forgot about that 2020-03-16T16:59:49Z jmercouris: thank you for spotting it 2020-03-16T17:00:03Z Bike: i think you wrould write ("newQApplication" new-q-application) for the name 2020-03-16T17:00:04Z jmercouris: it used to accept no arguments 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Thanks. 2020-03-17T05:21:58Z buffergn0me: beach's good mornings are the best part of lurking in #lisp 2020-03-17T05:22:51Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-03-17T05:22:53Z Josh_2: if they haven't joined #lisp what is the point of being on IRC 2020-03-17T05:23:57Z holycow: what are we talking about? what is itc 2020-03-17T05:23:58Z holycow: ? 2020-03-17T05:24:17Z edgar-rft: itc is a typo :-) 2020-03-17T05:24:27Z holycow: ah 2020-03-17T05:25:25Z edgar-rft: a holy typo for holycow 2020-03-17T05:30:17Z no-defun-allowed: minion: what does ITC stand for? 2020-03-17T05:30:18Z minion: Interassure Tirl Creasing 2020-03-17T05:32:11Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-17T05:32:43Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-17T05:39:31Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-17T05:41:06Z ebzzry___ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-17T05:42:35Z ebzzry___ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T05:45:19Z sauvin joined #lisp 2020-03-17T05:46:39Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-17T05:51:09Z bg__ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T05:52:09Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-17T05:53:31Z bilegeek quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-17T05:53:51Z adam4567 joined #lisp 2020-03-17T05:56:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-17T05:57:50Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-03-17T05:58:10Z mikecheck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T05:58:20Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-17T06:02:33Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-17T06:02:58Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-17T06:09:33Z hvxgr quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-17T06:09:33Z zymurgy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-17T06:10:21Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2020-03-17T06:12:41Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2020-03-17T06:12:48Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-03-17T06:13:09Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-17T06:15:35Z cartwright quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T06:17:22Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-17T06:17:47Z cartwright joined #lisp 2020-03-17T06:17:48Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-17T06:19:54Z ebzzry___ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-17T06:22:00Z ebzzry___ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T06:34:10Z GreaseMonkey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T06:34:21Z greaser|q joined #lisp 2020-03-17T06:35:14Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-17T06:37:51Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-03-17T06:37:59Z ebzzry___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T06:38:21Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-17T06:39:32Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-03-17T06:40:19Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T06:42:50Z ebzzry___ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T06:47:22Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-03-17T06:47:44Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-17T06:53:32Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-03-17T06:55:05Z ebzzry___ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-17T06:58:29Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-17T07:04:07Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2020-03-17T07:10:44Z Duuqnd joined #lisp 2020-03-17T07:12:58Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-17T07:20:35Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-17T07:22:45Z Duuqnd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-17T07:26:21Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-17T07:31:28Z ebzzry___ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T07:32:07Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2020-03-17T07:32:52Z Duuqnd joined #lisp 2020-03-17T07:34:06Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-03-17T07:41:39Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-17T07:44:21Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-03-17T07:45:06Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-17T07:56:08Z isBEKaml: what's IRC? 2020-03-17T07:57:18Z no-defun-allowed: minion: what does IRC stand for? 2020-03-17T07:57:18Z minion: Idoneity Rejuvenation Constableship 2020-03-17T07:57:33Z aeth: This is IRC: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1459 2020-03-17T07:59:05Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T08:05:29Z pjb: isBEKaml: http://cliki.net/IRC 2020-03-17T08:07:04Z schweers joined #lisp 2020-03-17T08:11:52Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-17T08:17:29Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-17T08:18:02Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-17T08:18:11Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T08:19:07Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-03-17T08:19:12Z ebzzry___ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-17T08:19:48Z isBEKaml: pjb: that was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek 2020-03-17T08:20:25Z isBEKaml: "Idoneity Rejuvenation Constableship" -- I like this 2020-03-17T08:21:04Z even4void quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T08:21:15Z ebzzry___ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T08:22:11Z eivindst joined #lisp 2020-03-17T08:22:27Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-03-17T08:24:19Z eivindst: Hi. I'm having some problems with values of 2-dimensional arrays not getting updated and returning the arrays from within (let ...) returns nil. Could someone take a look? The code is here: https://bin.privacytools.io/?3f6bd7b335f30236#xR2/XDCh8rRvhSbTBGZLyCz9GpxCJUr5OHAj5jnRi88= 2020-03-17T08:24:37Z even4void quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T08:25:50Z eivindst: In Common Lisp by the way. 2020-03-17T08:26:29Z phoe: that last m-v-b has no body 2020-03-17T08:26:37Z phoe: so obviously it returns NIL 2020-03-17T08:26:59Z eivindst: Could you explain? I'm new to Lisp in general. 2020-03-17T08:27:08Z phoe: multiple-value-bind binds new variables for you 2020-03-17T08:27:15Z phoe: but then you need to do something with these variables 2020-03-17T08:27:36Z eivindst: Ah of course. Forgot about that. 2020-03-17T08:27:40Z no-defun-allowed: What are you trying to do with MATRIX-CHAIN-ORDER in the bottom line? 2020-03-17T08:27:57Z phoe: replace that last form with (matrix-chain-order '(30 35 15 5 10 20 25)) 2020-03-17T08:28:09Z phoe: and you'll get whatever the function returns 2020-03-17T08:28:10Z no-defun-allowed: If you just want to return those two values, you don't need to wrap anything around the function call, as phoe says. 2020-03-17T08:29:18Z eivindst: Right. I'm supposed to process it further, just forgot to add that part. I thought the actual function returned nil. 2020-03-17T08:29:34Z phoe: it doesn't 2020-03-17T08:29:39Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2020-03-17T08:29:40Z phoe: it returns (values m s) 2020-03-17T08:30:10Z eivindst: Also, it seems that the 'm' and 's' values are never updated in the last progn in the function. Likely because of my if statement being wrong? 2020-03-17T08:30:29Z phoe: updated? what do you mean? 2020-03-17T08:30:41Z phoe: I see some SETF AREF M and SETF AREF S in the code 2020-03-17T08:30:48Z eivindst: Hmm, when I print the result, it's all either "inf" or 0. 2020-03-17T08:31:01Z phoe: this means that the places inside that array are modified someplace in that code 2020-03-17T08:31:03Z phoe: hm 2020-03-17T08:31:12Z aeth: Most Lisp implementations actually have 2-4 infinities, if you don't need the type to be an integer. https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features/blob/master/float-features.lisp 2020-03-17T08:31:17Z phoe: if that happens, then that's a question whether your algorithm is doing the correct thing 2020-03-17T08:32:06Z eivindst: Yea... Trying to implement some algorithms from my algorithms course, but some of them are a pain in the back. 2020-03-17T08:32:19Z eivindst: But as far as Lisp is concerned it looks OK? 2020-03-17T08:33:08Z eivindst: In the final if-statement, I'm updating 'q' and when it evaluates it should return the new value, whichis compared to m[i,j]. 2020-03-17T08:34:24Z phoe: the return value of that last statement is ignored 2020-03-17T08:34:36Z phoe: ooh, you mean that 2020-03-17T08:34:42Z eivindst: aeth: Thanks for the reference btw. For small projects like this I prefer to not have external dependencies, and also, its only integers in this case. 2020-03-17T08:34:48Z eivindst: aeth: Thanks for the reference btw. For small projects like this I prefer to not have external dependencies, and also, its only integers in this case.q 2020-03-17T08:34:50Z phoe: yes, (setf q ...) updates q and returns the new value 2020-03-17T08:34:52Z eivindst: Oops 2020-03-17T08:36:49Z eivindst: Thanks for the help. There might be some off-by-1 errors as the reference algorithm has indexing from 1 to n... Will keep looking at it. 2020-03-17T08:39:36Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-17T08:39:57Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T08:44:46Z ebzzry___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T08:46:11Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-17T08:46:49Z chip2n quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-03-17T08:47:08Z chip2n joined #lisp 2020-03-17T08:47:56Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-03-17T08:49:02Z even4void quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T08:52:43Z adam4567: \leave 2020-03-17T08:52:48Z adam4567 left #lisp 2020-03-17T08:55:14Z bg__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-17T09:01:46Z hhdave joined #lisp 2020-03-17T09:04:20Z vert2_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-17T09:04:49Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-17T09:06:00Z leo_song quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2020-03-17T09:06:19Z chip2n quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-03-17T09:06:20Z leo_song joined #lisp 2020-03-17T09:08:32Z chip2n joined #lisp 2020-03-17T09:15:19Z chip2n quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-03-17T09:17:33Z chip2n joined #lisp 2020-03-17T09:18:06Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T09:18:16Z gmeister joined #lisp 2020-03-17T09:18:47Z eivindst: In case someone is interested I fixed the algorithm I had trouble with earlier (several off-by-1 errors...). Here is the result https://bin.privacytools.io/?7a9f5fcd44c8bbaa#72IiFHeNtK/vypw7gXfpIgTlYAynpXHzdc3iqVJOQvo= 2020-03-17T09:18:57Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-03-17T09:20:34Z chip2n quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-17T09:29:45Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-03-17T09:30:04Z even4void quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-17T09:31:59Z beach: eivindst: Would you like remarks on that code? 2020-03-17T09:45:35Z ebzzry___ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T09:48:26Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-17T09:51:07Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T09:53:42Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-17T09:53:49Z ebzzry___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T09:54:09Z vert2 joined #lisp 2020-03-17T09:54:32Z chip2n joined #lisp 2020-03-17T09:56:36Z Tordek joined #lisp 2020-03-17T09:57:33Z chip2n quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-17T09:57:51Z chip2n joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:01:25Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:06:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T10:07:50Z chip2n quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-03-17T10:08:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:10:11Z zooey_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T10:14:34Z eivindst: beach: Sorry for the late response. I would appreciate remarks. I'm a bit busy for the next ~45 min. but if you would leave some remarks or discuss at that time I would be grateful. 2020-03-17T10:15:21Z beach: OK. 2020-03-17T10:15:26Z beach: The DO LOOP keyword has an implicit PROGN, so you don't need that PROGN. 2020-03-17T10:15:31Z beach: You should put LOOP keywords first on a line. And you then need the slime-indentation contribution to get the indentation right. 2020-03-17T10:15:38Z beach: If you have an IF without an `else' branch, it is better to use WHEN. That way you don't need the PROGN either. 2020-03-17T10:15:42Z beach: Instead of doing (loop for l from 1 to (1- n)...) it is better to do (loop for l from 1 below n...). Same for (loop for k from i to (1- j)...). 2020-03-17T10:15:44Z beach: For global constants, it is conventional to surround the name with +, so +inf+ instead of just inf. 2020-03-17T10:16:40Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:17:49Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:17:53Z eivindst: Thanks for the feedback! Will do as you say. Is there a "style guide" somewhere I should follow for conventions? 2020-03-17T10:18:08Z chip2n joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:19:27Z amerlyq quit (Quit: amerlyq) 2020-03-17T10:20:04Z sarna quit (Quit: bye) 2020-03-17T10:20:18Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T10:20:42Z v_m_v joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:21:38Z beach: The google style guide is fairly complete. 2020-03-17T10:22:16Z beach: You also have the LUV slides by Norvig and Pitman. (You can google that. I don't remember the link by heart) 2020-03-17T10:22:33Z eivindst: Thanks. I will check it out. 2020-03-17T10:22:34Z sarna joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:26:40Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:27:40Z gxt quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2020-03-17T10:28:01Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:28:38Z isBEKaml quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-17T10:31:30Z even4void: Check out the CL cookbook (the LUV slides are listed near the end of the homepage): https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/. 2020-03-17T10:33:00Z ebzzry___ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:34:37Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:36:48Z gxt quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2020-03-17T10:39:03Z eMBee quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2020-03-17T10:43:24Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:43:48Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2020-03-17T10:50:02Z holycow quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-17T10:50:19Z ljavorsk_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T10:50:45Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:54:38Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-17T10:56:32Z nullman joined #lisp 2020-03-17T10:56:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-17T11:00:00Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-17T11:02:42Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-17T11:05:02Z xkapastel joined #lisp 2020-03-17T11:07:04Z sonologico joined #lisp 2020-03-17T11:07:47Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-03-17T11:14:33Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-17T11:14:48Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-17T11:21:32Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T11:21:58Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-17T11:29:49Z ljavorsk_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T11:30:20Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T11:32:06Z McParen joined #lisp 2020-03-17T11:32:21Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-03-17T11:34:52Z eivindst: even4void: Thanks 2020-03-17T11:37:25Z gmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-17T11:44:43Z spacefrogg joined #lisp 2020-03-17T11:45:51Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T11:45:59Z even4void quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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http://dpaste.com/2RPR85M 2020-03-17T16:41:08Z jmercouris: it is *always* the exact same stack trade 2020-03-17T16:41:10Z jmercouris: trace* 2020-03-17T16:42:03Z jmercouris: source is here: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/cl-webengine for those interested 2020-03-17T16:42:13Z jmercouris: in case it is not clear, this is CFFI 2020-03-17T16:42:19Z jmercouris: the exact same code in C works just fine 2020-03-17T16:43:32Z jackdaniel: I did some hacking to render CLIM onto html5 canvas: https://imgur.com/8ynyukJ.png (bottom drawing is x11 window) 2020-03-17T16:43:34Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-17T16:43:46Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-03-17T16:44:35Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-17T16:45:06Z phoe: jmercouris: https://github.com/resttime/cl-liballegro/issues/8 2020-03-17T16:45:19Z phoe: a similar solution will work for you 2020-03-17T16:45:26Z phoe: tl;dr mask the floating point errors 2020-03-17T16:45:35Z jackdaniel: what's left is to have connection the other way around via websocket and we'll have super-slow and buggy McCLIM backend, yay! :-) 2020-03-17T16:46:17Z jmercouris: phoe: I'll try, thank you 2020-03-17T16:46:49Z beach: jackdaniel: Wow, nice! 2020-03-17T16:47:23Z jackdaniel: thanks 2020-03-17T16:48:04Z phoe: jackdaniel: woah, that's amazing stuff! 2020-03-17T16:48:05Z jackdaniel: work from yesterday evening and today afternoon continuation 2020-03-17T16:49:11Z jackdaniel: I know that McCLIM has many other (and more important) things to work on, but this seems to be fun. html5 canvas api maps to mcclim drawing almost seamlessly 2020-03-17T16:49:16Z Xach: jackdaniel: very cool, i have been trying to do something slightly similar - decoupled backends/frontends for vecto. i want to do websocket<->browser interaction locally too. 2020-03-17T16:49:50Z Xach: one lisp program that outputs html canvas, svg, pdf, png, etc. without changes 2020-03-17T16:50:10Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-17T16:50:19Z jackdaniel: right, that's what I'd like to have mcclim doing for output-only backends (and interaction for others) 2020-03-17T16:50:36Z jackdaniel: I have semi-working console backend for vt100 terminal (without ncourses, only via sgt extensions) 2020-03-17T16:52:12Z jmercouris: phoe: you are a life saver 2020-03-17T16:52:18Z jmercouris: weeks, and weeks of wondering why this is crashing 2020-03-17T16:52:48Z jmercouris: phoe: I owe you a million pomelos 2020-03-17T16:53:09Z jackdaniel: Xach: is there a repository or it is still in too early phase? 2020-03-17T16:53:46Z jackdaniel: the little one attacks me and the workstation :) 2020-03-17T16:54:33Z xkapastel joined #lisp 2020-03-17T16:56:00Z Xach: jackdaniel: nothing published yet, just some proofs of concept 2020-03-17T16:56:09Z Bike: maybe we should get whoever's in charge of the cffi manual to mention float traps, if they haven't already 2020-03-17T16:56:37Z Xach: jackdaniel: i had a thing where it sends arrays of floats that encode the operations, and a js shim that interprets the ops 2020-03-17T16:56:59Z Xach: like [1.0, 50.0, 50.0] is (move-to 50 50) 2020-03-17T16:57:06Z Xach: i don't know if that's worth the trouble 2020-03-17T16:57:56Z phoe: minion: bank: jmercouris owes me 1000000 pomelos 2020-03-17T16:57:58Z minion: watch out, you'll make krystof angry 2020-03-17T16:58:41Z phoe: Xach: curious question, why not strings that denote ops? 2020-03-17T16:58:42Z jackdaniel: binary encoding makes sense if there is a lot of data going through the network 2020-03-17T16:58:55Z Xach: phoe: i thought it might be smaller. 2020-03-17T16:59:16Z Xach: and faster indexing into the function array 2020-03-17T16:59:21Z Xach: i don't know if that's true or not 2020-03-17T16:59:34Z jackdaniel: wouldn't integers be better suited for opcodes? 2020-03-17T16:59:38Z phoe: Xach: if you're very worried about bandwidth, I think you shouldn't use JSON through the web, but rather a binary format over WebSockets of some sort 2020-03-17T16:59:47Z scymtym: jackdaniel: the broadway backend has all that. the only difference is that it currently rasterizes on the server side 2020-03-17T17:00:07Z Xach: jackdaniel: js doesn't have integers... 2020-03-17T17:00:31Z jmercouris: I believe there is an object for integers 2020-03-17T17:00:34Z Xach: phoe: websockets is the idea. 2020-03-17T17:00:35Z jackdaniel: ah, what a wonderful language 2020-03-17T17:00:54Z jmercouris: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Number 2020-03-17T17:02:10Z Xach: jmercouris: what position do you feel that supports? 2020-03-17T17:02:14Z jackdaniel: scymtym: I know, this hack is more a self-amusement whim tahn a competition 2020-03-17T17:02:19Z jackdaniel: than* 2020-03-17T17:02:19Z scymtym: Xach: the gtk people made a websocket-based bi-directional mechanism for this. the server side is implemented in the experimental McCLIM broadway backend 2020-03-17T17:02:38Z Xach: what is broadway? 2020-03-17T17:02:46Z jmercouris: broadway is a place in new york 2020-03-17T17:02:53Z scymtym: broadway = displaying gtk applications in the browser 2020-03-17T17:02:56Z jackdaniel: how clever! 2020-03-17T17:02:58Z Xach: scymtym: cool 2020-03-17T17:03:07Z jmercouris: see here for more disambiguation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadway 2020-03-17T17:03:45Z jmercouris: it actually is on that page! 2020-03-17T17:04:39Z jmercouris: Xach: what do you mean about position that it supports? 2020-03-17T17:04:51Z Xach: scymtym: do you feel like https://github.com/s-expressionists/Trucler/ is a good thing to add to quicklisp? someone asked for it 2020-03-17T17:04:51Z scymtym: Xach: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/mcclim-broadway-7.ogv . the last (non-current) version i pushed is https://github.com/scymtym/McCLIM/tree/wip-broadway/Backends/Broadway 2020-03-17T17:04:54Z jmercouris: Xach: what is the max value of an integer? it depends on the JS implementation actually, I was looking at this some time ago 2020-03-17T17:05:06Z jmercouris: Xach: I don't believe it is in the specification or something 2020-03-17T17:05:19Z Xach: jmercouris: i said js does not have integers. you said it does. do you think the link supports your position, or mine? 2020-03-17T17:05:32Z jmercouris: I didn't say that it has integers 2020-03-17T17:05:36Z jmercouris: I said "there is an object for integers" 2020-03-17T17:05:38Z scymtym: Xach: eventually sure. better ask heisig or beach about the right time, though 2020-03-17T17:06:03Z Xach: jmercouris: do you think that link supports the position that there is "an object for integers"? 2020-03-17T17:06:05Z jmercouris: either way, I'm not one of the people who argues to "win" 2020-03-17T17:06:14Z jmercouris: well yeah, you make a number object 2020-03-17T17:06:20Z Xach: or even, apparently, to reveal "facts" or "correctness" 2020-03-17T17:06:22Z jmercouris: and then you can invoke "isInteger" or whatever it is called 2020-03-17T17:06:40Z aamukastemato joined #lisp 2020-03-17T17:06:54Z Xach: check out https://tc39.es/ecma262/#sec-ecmascript-language-types-number-type 2020-03-17T17:07:12Z jmercouris: I really don't care 2020-03-17T17:07:23Z Xach: Please don't jump in with nonsense, then. 2020-03-17T17:07:27Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T17:07:30Z jmercouris: I didn't say anything false 2020-03-17T17:07:51Z Xach: You did, but I'm glad you don't care and won't try to argue otherwise. 2020-03-17T17:08:10Z jmercouris: Except that I didn't, there is an object for integers 2020-03-17T17:09:12Z fe[nl]ix: we can all agree that Javascript is awful, and move on 2020-03-17T17:09:21Z ebzzry_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T17:10:54Z Xach: beach: what do you think about making Trucler available via quicklisp? someone asked me to add it for the next release, but I realized somewhat late they are not one of the authors. 2020-03-17T17:12:02Z Xach: I know that the license allows it, so I am asking about your preferences, not my freedom to do it. 2020-03-17T17:14:37Z davepdot_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T17:15:13Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-17T17:15:13Z even4void quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Let me check with heisig to see what he thinks. 2020-03-17T17:17:37Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-17T17:20:17Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-17T17:26:56Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-03-17T17:28:26Z scymtym: jackdaniel: i think both implementations (i.e. rasterized and vector-based) are worth exploring. i just wanted to point out that some shareable infrastructure is already there 2020-03-17T17:29:29Z v_m_v_ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T17:32:05Z v_m_v_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T17:33:51Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-03-17T17:34:12Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-17T17:34:39Z MichaelRaskin: jackdaniel: impressive work! 2020-03-17T17:37:11Z lemoinem quit (Killed (verne.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2020-03-17T17:37:13Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2020-03-17T17:37:56Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-17T17:38:16Z even4void quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(The equivalent C implementation works fine.) Any suggestions, or is this an "on my own as its probably related to specifics of the C code" type of situation? The code is up here 2020-03-17T18:44:08Z eschulte: FWIW: https://github.com/eschulte/cl-capstone 2020-03-17T18:45:29Z even4void quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-03-17T18:47:15Z phoe: eschulte: dynamically allocated memory? you mean allocated by Lisp? 2020-03-17T18:47:28Z phoe: by malloc? 2020-03-17T18:47:35Z Bike: foreign-alloc, it says 2020-03-17T18:47:42Z phoe: ooh 2020-03-17T18:47:49Z phoe: then sounds like something frees that memory 2020-03-17T18:47:51Z eschulte: By malloc inside of one of the hooked C functions (I believe `cs-open` in the example) 2020-03-17T18:48:04Z phoe: figure out what frees it, and you'll be done 2020-03-17T18:48:51Z eschulte: Okay. I'm guessing something on the lisp side, any suggestions for things to trace? 2020-03-17T18:50:53Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-17T18:52:06Z mrcom joined #lisp 2020-03-17T18:52:43Z domovod quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-17T18:53:10Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-03-17T18:53:11Z _death: eschulte: your code assumes that size_t is the same as unsigned int, but that needs not be the case (and is not, on x64) 2020-03-17T18:54:19Z _death: eschulte: you can use the groveller to define a proper size-t type (annoying, I know) 2020-03-17T18:54:26Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-17T18:55:09Z eschulte: _death: Ah, okay, thanks. I'll do that 2020-03-17T18:56:05Z _death: also, capstone assumes that size_t can store a pointer (what uintptr_t is for).. it is the case on the platforms they care about, I guess, but needs not be the case 2020-03-17T18:58:16Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-17T18:59:40Z _death: it reminds me that a while ago I modified one of your libraries (the elf one, I think) to use capstone for something 2020-03-17T19:01:27Z eschulte: Oh, cool. If you have a pointer I'd be very interested to see it. 2020-03-17T19:02:01Z _death fishes it out of his laptop 2020-03-17T19:06:39Z _death: well, here are the two patches: https://gist.github.com/death/d676d769e0a3f48a39ce20d5904beb5a feel free to salvage any code deemed worthy 2020-03-17T19:07:40Z eschulte: Thanks, I'll take a look. 2020-03-17T19:08:39Z eschulte: Also, changing the type of the `capstone-handle` ctype from size_t to pointer seems to have solved my memory error, so thanks for that too! 2020-03-17T19:09:04Z domovod joined #lisp 2020-03-17T19:09:29Z _death: ;) 2020-03-17T19:09:34Z theBlackDragon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T19:11:48Z eschulte: Oh, I should just be using sb-capstone. That's what I get for giving up my package search after (ql:system-apropos "capstone") returned nothing 2020-03-17T19:13:03Z _death: eschulte: personally I think cffi bindings is a worthy project.. when they made that contrib the reason for it puzzled me, and I think I asked on #sbcl but they gave no reason 2020-03-17T19:21:38Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-17T19:21:51Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2020-03-17T19:23:36Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-17T19:24:02Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-17T19:24:15Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-17T19:25:46Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-17T19:28:23Z theBlackDragon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T19:31:13Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T19:31:36Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-03-17T19:36:23Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-17T19:46:31Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-17T19:48:37Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-17T19:49:34Z fouric: Shinmera: do you have a few minutes to sell me on why i should use alloy instead of clim 2020-03-17T19:50:24Z Shinmera: You should use Alloy if you need something that works in an OpenGL context and is Lisp native. 2020-03-17T19:51:08Z Shinmera: OR: you should use Alloy if you want to hack and contribute on a new UI toolkit that is open to reconsidering existing paradigms. 2020-03-17T19:51:33Z Shinmera: If those do not apply I cannot in good conscience recommend it because it is still much too young. 2020-03-17T19:51:50Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2020-03-17T19:51:52Z Shinmera: I would absolutely love to have some collaborators for it though. 2020-03-17T19:51:54Z fouric: interesting. why "and is lisp native"? my projects definitely are, but i thought that clim was a prime example of something that was lisp-native 2020-03-17T19:52:10Z fouric: (that is, i read your "and lise native" as implying that clim is less so) 2020-03-17T19:52:34Z Shinmera: Yes but CLIM does not do OpenGL (currently) 2020-03-17T19:52:39Z fouric: aha, gotcha 2020-03-17T19:52:41Z fouric: hmmm 2020-03-17T19:52:42Z Shinmera: There are other non-lisp native things that do OpenGL 2020-03-17T19:52:51Z Shinmera: So Alloy is currently the only thing that does both of those :) 2020-03-17T19:53:10Z fouric: if i want something that has both opengl and software rendering backends, is either clim or alloy definitely best for that? 2020-03-17T19:53:19Z fouric: oh, i think you implied that allow requires opengl 2020-03-17T19:53:30Z Shinmera: No, Alloy is backend-independent 2020-03-17T19:53:34Z fouric: aha, alright 2020-03-17T19:53:42Z Shinmera: There's currently just only an OpenGL one because I have only so much time. 2020-03-17T19:55:28Z fouric: makes sense 2020-03-17T19:56:03Z fouric: and, is there potential for alloy to offer run-time introspection of widgets? that is, i'm specifically looking for a framework that will allow me to implement "jump to definition" but for widgets instead of code 2020-03-17T19:56:38Z fouric: and hotpatching, so that i can modify said widgets 2020-03-17T19:56:54Z fouric: (i don't think that this is possible in gtk, for example) 2020-03-17T19:56:56Z Shinmera: Alloy is deeply based on CLOS, so I don't see why not. 2020-03-17T19:59:00Z fouric: alright, that's enough for me to start trying to consume the documentation 2020-03-17T19:59:21Z Shinmera: Don't hesitate to stop by #shirakumo and ask me questions directly 2020-03-17T19:59:56Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-17T20:00:46Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-17T20:01:11Z fouric: alright! no guarantees that i'll actually do anything, though, because i'm the stereotypical lisper who pokes at shiny things for a few months but can't finish a project 2020-03-17T20:01:14Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-03-17T20:04:26Z Shinmera: Yeah, I've unfortunately not been successful in finding anyone to help out so far, but I'll keep on trying! 2020-03-17T20:07:40Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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Classes are themselves just instances. 2020-03-18T01:00:33Z Bike: yeah but describe on classes isn't like 2020-03-18T01:00:41Z Bike: i mean, try it, in sbcl, it gibves you a list of slots 2020-03-18T01:00:47Z Bike: it's not like a coherent help system 2020-03-18T01:01:43Z aeth: Well, that's because few classe have (:documentation ...) but it's possible... 2020-03-18T01:01:47Z aeth: *classes 2020-03-18T01:02:19Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-18T01:02:51Z Bike: if i use describe on a class with a docstring, it prints the docstring and then a bunch of slots 2020-03-18T01:02:59Z Bike: if you want the documentation you can just use the documentation function 2020-03-18T01:03:20Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T01:04:00Z _death: for example, here is what I consider appropriate use of describe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1708#1708 2020-03-18T01:04:53Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-18T01:05:37Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-18T01:07:49Z aeth: _death: Here's my example. https://gitlab.com/snippets/1954365 2020-03-18T01:09:49Z _death: so, basically documentation 2020-03-18T01:10:20Z aeth: Right. 2020-03-18T01:14:55Z _death: to get something analogous to python's help, you need to combine describe-like traversal with documentation-centric qualities of documentation 2020-03-18T01:15:13Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-18T01:18:01Z epony joined #lisp 2020-03-18T01:22:14Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T01:23:48Z n1kio quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T01:23:54Z patrixl joined #lisp 2020-03-18T01:23:55Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-18T01:28:14Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-18T01:37:19Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T01:38:45Z jackhill quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-18T01:39:05Z jackhill joined #lisp 2020-03-18T01:45:25Z ebzzry_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T01:46:24Z trocado joined #lisp 2020-03-18T01:55:10Z xlei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2020-03-18T01:57:18Z xlei joined #lisp 2020-03-18T02:01:15Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2020-03-18T02:03:24Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T02:06:48Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-03-18T02:12:22Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-18T02:13:21Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-18T02:17:16Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T02:17:25Z _death: as an aside, isn't it funny that the Lambda-list shown in your snippet has the opposite symbol qualification from a usability point of view.. you'd expect it to show (NAME-AND-OPTION TYPED-LAMBDA-LIST CL:&BODY BODY) 2020-03-18T02:21:00Z _death: qualification could also be useful if the symbol names a special variable 2020-03-18T02:21:59Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T02:24:06Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-18T02:28:36Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-03-18T02:29:44Z devrtz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-18T02:36:01Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-18T02:40:19Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-18T02:40:43Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-03-18T02:41:18Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-18T02:48:16Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-18T02:49:21Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T02:56:46Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-18T02:57:37Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-03-18T02:58:06Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-03-18T03:01:00Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T03:01:06Z semz joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:01:08Z semz quit (Changing host) 2020-03-18T03:01:08Z semz joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:02:29Z FennecCode quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.2)) 2020-03-18T03:04:33Z mange joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:09:43Z mono joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:10:05Z Nilby joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:12:08Z monokrom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-18T03:12:59Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-18T03:14:55Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:24:12Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:25:49Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:26:29Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-18T03:30:53Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T03:31:12Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:33:07Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:33:13Z ebzzry_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-18T03:39:02Z ebzzry_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:41:53Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:43:44Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:48:33Z cyberlard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-18T03:48:37Z devrtz joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:53:07Z ebzzry_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T03:54:25Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-18T03:58:48Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-03-18T03:58:59Z Josh_2: Mornin beach :) 2020-03-18T04:04:06Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-18T04:04:57Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T04:04:58Z Bike: good morning. 2020-03-18T04:05:14Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-18T04:08:50Z iAmDecim: How hard do you think it would be to make a modern web server in lisp? 2020-03-18T04:09:20Z iAmDecim: I’ve noticed those haven’t been touched in a long time. I was actually coming to Common Lisp but the servers available scared me a little 2020-03-18T04:09:53Z no-defun-allowed: What constitutes "modern" for you? 2020-03-18T04:10:04Z beach was just about to ask the same question. 2020-03-18T04:10:07Z iAmDecim: Http/2 for starters 2020-03-18T04:10:45Z iAmDecim: Also from a layman’s view it seems speed isn’t up to par with say immutant/http-kit in clojure 2020-03-18T04:11:08Z Josh_2: did you look at woo? 2020-03-18T04:11:14Z iAmDecim: And I may be completely wrong. I’m not all that experienced but it seems they are a little behind 2020-03-18T04:11:25Z no-defun-allowed: Which are you comparing to? 2020-03-18T04:11:35Z pnq joined #lisp 2020-03-18T04:12:36Z no-defun-allowed: Hunchentoot is a tad slow, but I think it's excusable because it is also very dynamic and flexible. 2020-03-18T04:15:23Z iAmDecim: Http-kit at the moment 2020-03-18T04:16:30Z iAmDecim: https://github.com/http-kit/http-kit 2020-03-18T04:16:48Z no-defun-allowed: I meant the Common Lisp server, sorry. 2020-03-18T04:16:52Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2020-03-18T04:17:11Z Josh_2: iAmDecim: did you see https://github.com/fukamachi/woo 2020-03-18T04:17:26Z iAmDecim: Oh I looked at clack woo and huchtenroot? 2020-03-18T04:17:47Z Josh_2: Woo seems pretty fast 2020-03-18T04:17:51Z iAmDecim: Also radiance though I believe that’s a full framework? 2020-03-18T04:17:55Z Josh_2: although it is using an external library 2020-03-18T04:17:59Z iAmDecim: But no http2? 2020-03-18T04:18:22Z no-defun-allowed: Radiance doesn't provide a server. 2020-03-18T04:18:50Z iAmDecim: Ahh that’s right. You can plug in what you like. 2020-03-18T04:19:03Z no-defun-allowed: No, I don't think there are any HTTP2 implementations in Common Lisp, except https://github.com/akamai/cl-http2-protocol 2020-03-18T04:19:17Z iAmDecim: Part of my question was I was trying to decide if I should try to make one partially for my own learning 2020-03-18T04:19:37Z iAmDecim: no-defun-allowed: ahh ok so a library you can plug in. That could be helpful 2020-03-18T04:19:39Z beach: I think that's an excellent idea. 2020-03-18T04:20:26Z iAmDecim: I’m coming from clojure(no expert there) but I did like what I saw from reading half of pcl. In fact it made clojure more clear 2020-03-18T04:20:52Z Josh_2: Imagine Hunchentoot, but with http2 2020-03-18T04:20:55Z Josh_2: sounds great :D 2020-03-18T04:21:27Z no-defun-allowed: In my opinion, HTTP/2 seems more difficult to implement than HTTP/1 2020-03-18T04:24:28Z iAmDecim: no-defun-allowed: more than likely but how much so? 2020-03-18T04:24:28Z lemoinem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T04:24:36Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2020-03-18T04:25:40Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know, I haven't written proper implementations of either. (My lparallel-backed test implementation of HTTP/1 was faster than I could get Node to go, for the record.) 2020-03-18T04:30:04Z akoana left #lisp 2020-03-18T04:30:08Z iAmDecim: no-defun-allowed: it’s on github? 2020-03-18T04:30:25Z Burleigh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T04:31:20Z no-defun-allowed: Still, I would guess it could take about 5x the time to write a HTTP/2 implementation? HTTP/1 has some weird kludges like flipping between reading octets and characters, but otherwise it's not multiplexed and mostly text, which is easy to debug. 2020-03-18T04:31:28Z no-defun-allowed: No, I can't remember where I saved it. 2020-03-18T04:33:06Z iAmDecim: Sounds scary already. =) 2020-03-18T04:33:54Z pnq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T04:34:29Z no-defun-allowed: Not that it wouldn't be great to have, but it would be difficult. 2020-03-18T04:35:54Z iAmDecim: Hmm well that may be a bit for me to chew just yet. 2020-03-18T04:36:01Z beach: It sounds "messy", but "straightforward", so just a matter of putting in the effort, no? I mean, there are no particular difficult design aspects, are there? 2020-03-18T04:38:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-18T04:38:12Z oni-on-ion quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-18T04:39:24Z no-defun-allowed: My understanding is that HTTP/2 is fully multiplexed, and servers can send content to clients it believes the client will request soon (such as CSS and JavaScript files for a HTML document). 2020-03-18T04:39:32Z no-defun-allowed: s/servers/a server 2020-03-18T04:40:23Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-18T04:45:25Z no-defun-allowed: iAmDecim: The only thing I did was submit a task to lparallel's thread pool with each connection. The rest was pretty normal, except that it used a Node-ish protocol where you write out strings or byte arrays to the connection. 2020-03-18T04:50:50Z iAmDecim: Gotcha 2020-03-18T05:01:42Z ebzzry_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T05:02:19Z nckx quit (Quit: Updating my Guix System — https://guix.gnu.org) 2020-03-18T05:04:08Z nckx joined #lisp 2020-03-18T05:13:58Z fouric quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2020-03-18T05:15:11Z fouric joined #lisp 2020-03-18T05:15:14Z oldtopman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T05:19:24Z oldtopman joined #lisp 2020-03-18T05:21:00Z ebzzry_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T05:21:20Z davepdot_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T05:21:23Z sarna quit (Quit: bye) 2020-03-18T05:21:58Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-18T05:23:00Z sarna joined #lisp 2020-03-18T05:25:20Z ebzzry_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T05:33:32Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-18T05:33:45Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2020-03-18T05:38:52Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-18T05:46:20Z sauvin joined #lisp 2020-03-18T05:46:20Z sauvin quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-03-18T05:49:54Z stux|RC-only quit (Quit: Aloha!) 2020-03-18T05:50:51Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2020-03-18T05:56:09Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-18T05:56:23Z dale quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep) 2020-03-18T06:01:18Z sauvin joined #lisp 2020-03-18T06:01:19Z sauvin quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-03-18T06:07:13Z mono quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T06:16:09Z KDr22 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T06:17:48Z KDr22 joined #lisp 2020-03-18T06:19:57Z moon-child: new to asdf, and lisp in general; how do I integrate asdf with quicklisp? 2020-03-18T06:20:13Z Josh_2: asdf comes with most distros 2020-03-18T06:20:18Z Josh_2: if not all 2020-03-18T06:20:22Z moon-child: I made an asdf system, and I try to ql:quickload in a lisp file, but get an error 2020-03-18T06:20:29Z Josh_2: ah 2020-03-18T06:20:31Z moon-child: ql:quickload works fine at repl 2020-03-18T06:20:55Z moon-child: if I quickload the package I need ahead of time, everything works as I would expect 2020-03-18T06:21:10Z Josh_2: yeh 2020-03-18T06:25:05Z Josh_2: quickload is mostly for repl 2020-03-18T06:25:25Z moon-child: so how should I use quicklisp packages outside of the repl? 2020-03-18T06:25:37Z Josh_2: In other projects? 2020-03-18T06:25:46Z no-defun-allowed: Usually you define an ASDF system, and load that. 2020-03-18T06:25:54Z Josh_2: ^ 2020-03-18T06:26:22Z no-defun-allowed: Say you have a file foo.lisp, you might write (asdf:define-system :foo :depends-on (:a-dependency :another-dependency ...) :components ((:file "foo"))) in foo.asd 2020-03-18T06:28:51Z Josh_2: if you want to execute your code at terminal then you should load it all up in the repl and then dump the image 2020-03-18T06:28:52Z moon-child: ok 2020-03-18T06:28:59Z Josh_2: then you have an executable 2020-03-18T06:31:42Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T06:34:16Z moon-child: how does that work, by the way? I've been trying to get it to work. I see program-op and entry-point, and uiop:dump-image 2020-03-18T06:35:09Z Josh_2: you dump the image in the state you had it in, and then you can specify a function that is called when the image is executed 2020-03-18T06:35:20Z iAmDecim: For anyone that uses clojure and Common Lisp. Does slime have a feature that displays the result in the editor. Ciders overlay-result feature? 2020-03-18T06:35:48Z White_Flame: result of what? the normal REPL expression? of course 2020-03-18T06:36:28Z no-defun-allowed: In a Common Lisp buffer, (+ 2 2) C-j 2020-03-18T06:37:51Z iAmDecim: no-defun-allowed: gotcha 2020-03-18T06:39:12Z iAmDecim: I’m not home to try it but just to make sure I mean like this. https://youtu.be/l-sj07Vl_wc 2020-03-18T06:40:45Z White_Flame: under the SLIME menu, under Evaluation and Compilation is a bunch of stuff 2020-03-18T06:40:57Z White_Flame: for evaluating a region, a toplevel expression, etc etc 2020-03-18T06:41:05Z White_Flame: the result is normally in the minibuffer 2020-03-18T06:45:49Z mange quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-18T06:51:24Z MichaelRaskin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-18T06:54:49Z iAmDecim: White_Flame: oh ok. I’ll take a look. I’ve just been going through the books I bought. I’ll have to do some tinkering with slime today. I was sure it would exist. I imagine everything in cider they got the idea from slime and have a long ways to go 2020-03-18T06:55:41Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, SLIME exposes Common Lisp's interactive debugger at the least. 2020-03-18T06:57:10Z sauvin joined #lisp 2020-03-18T06:57:38Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-18T07:00:02Z jackdaniel2 joined #lisp 2020-03-18T07:01:53Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-03-18T07:06:16Z jd joined #lisp 2020-03-18T07:06:19Z jd quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-18T07:06:45Z jd-mob joined #lisp 2020-03-18T07:07:07Z jackdaniel2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T07:07:22Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2020-03-18T07:13:52Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2020-03-18T07:22:33Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T07:30:00Z seisatsu quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb1+deb9u2 - http://znc.in) 2020-03-18T07:30:41Z shka_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T07:31:45Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-18T07:39:00Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-18T07:42:33Z McParen joined #lisp 2020-03-18T07:47:01Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-18T07:47:51Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-18T07:49:01Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-03-18T07:51:54Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-18T08:09:28Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T08:10:57Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2020-03-18T08:12:52Z lanu joined #lisp 2020-03-18T08:14:20Z lanu quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-18T08:15:54Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-18T08:19:42Z jd-mob quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T08:19:48Z jd-mob2 joined #lisp 2020-03-18T08:19:59Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-03-18T08:22:08Z jd-mob2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T08:25:11Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-03-18T08:37:07Z jd-mob joined #lisp 2020-03-18T08:37:19Z duuqnd joined #lisp 2020-03-18T08:38:37Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-18T08:39:32Z rwcom joined #lisp 2020-03-18T08:41:47Z jd-mob quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T08:42:41Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-18T08:51:33Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T08:51:48Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-18T08:57:59Z jd-mob joined #lisp 2020-03-18T08:58:00Z patrixl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T08:59:24Z patrixl joined #lisp 2020-03-18T08:59:25Z jd-mob quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T08:59:39Z donotturnoff joined #lisp 2020-03-18T09:00:42Z pmden joined #lisp 2020-03-18T09:05:45Z duuqnd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T09:06:05Z duuqnd joined #lisp 2020-03-18T09:06:10Z arnaudga joined #lisp 2020-03-18T09:06:29Z duuqnd is now known as Guest15040 2020-03-18T09:07:00Z Guest15040 quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-18T09:07:37Z Duuqnd_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T09:07:39Z Duuqnd_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T09:14:04Z no-defun-allowed: Does anyone else seem to get frequently bitten by DOLIST, LOOP, and some other iterating forms changing bindings instead of creating them? 2020-03-18T09:14:22Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-18T09:14:42Z Shinmera: I expect them to do it 2020-03-18T09:15:01Z Shinmera: But sure, sometimes one forgets. 2020-03-18T09:15:43Z no-defun-allowed: The two times I can remember making closures in an iteration form, I have done that. Maybe I didn't remember the others because they weren't problematic, though. 2020-03-18T09:16:05Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: changing? what do you mean? 2020-03-18T09:16:14Z phoe: do you mean mutating or shadowing? 2020-03-18T09:16:33Z no-defun-allowed: Mutating. 2020-03-18T09:16:48Z phoe: could you give an example? 2020-03-18T09:18:00Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T09:18:11Z no-defun-allowed: Say, if (dolist (x xs) b) was implemented as (prog* ((step xs) (x (car step)) loop (when (null step) (return)) b (setf step (cdr step) x (car step)) (go loop)) or something like that, it would be mutating the binding of X. 2020-03-18T09:18:11Z shka_: hello dear lispers 2020-03-18T09:20:27Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T09:20:45Z shka_: when should i use cl:rational and when cl:rationalize? 2020-03-18T09:20:46Z no-defun-allowed: A Common Lisp implementation is allowed to do that, or something more like (prog ((step xs)) loop (when (null step) (return)) (let ((x (car xs))) b) (setf step (cdr step)) (go loop)) which creates new bindings for X. 2020-03-18T09:21:00Z pjb: iAmDecim: (+ 1 2) C-u C-x C-e 2020-03-18T09:21:09Z shka_: clhs states that rationalize gives approximation +/- machine epsilon 2020-03-18T09:21:25Z shka_: however, does this makes rationalize faster then rational? 2020-03-18T09:21:31Z shka_: in practice 2020-03-18T09:21:32Z pjb: iAmDecim: C-x C-e is usually bound to slime-eval-last-expression in lisp-mode. 2020-03-18T09:21:50Z pjb: iAmDecim: when prefixed with C-u, it inserts the result at the point. 2020-03-18T09:22:49Z pjb: shka_: clhs rational says: If number is a float, rational returns a rational that is mathematically equal in value to the float. rationalize returns a rational that approximates the float to the accuracy of the underlying floating-point representation. 2020-03-18T09:23:04Z pjb: It's not a question of speed, but of semantics. 2020-03-18T09:23:12Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: I never got bitten by that, I don't remember any issue like that 2020-03-18T09:23:15Z pjb: (rational 0.33) #| --> 11072963/33554432 |# (rationalize 0.33) #| --> 33/100 |# 2020-03-18T09:23:22Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-18T09:23:39Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: you can see the difference by creating a closure each step of the iteration. 2020-03-18T09:23:43Z no-defun-allowed: shka_: A quick test with (the-cost-of-nothing:bench (rational/rationalize (the-cost-of-nothing:touch pi))) suggests RATIONAL is about 23 times faster. 2020-03-18T09:23:53Z no-defun-allowed: Granted, that is a worst-case scenario in some ways. 2020-03-18T09:23:53Z iAmDecim: pjb: sweet. That sounds exactly like what I’m looking for. I’ll be home in a few to do some playing 2020-03-18T09:24:09Z shka_: wow, ok 2020-03-18T09:24:12Z shka_: interesting 2020-03-18T09:24:17Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: That's how I got bitten in the backside by it. 2020-03-18T09:24:24Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: you tested that on the SBCL is presume? 2020-03-18T09:24:30Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah. 2020-03-18T09:24:32Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: A mutation means all the closures refer to the same, final value like 11 11 11 11... New bindings means that the closures all refer to their original iteration, like 0 1 2 3 4 5... 2020-03-18T09:24:42Z aeth: The only real way to see, afaik 2020-03-18T09:24:55Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, that's why I asked. 2020-03-18T09:25:18Z aeth: The real fun part is that the final value is probably (but not necessarily) 1 more than what you think the final value is... I say "not necessarily" because it depends on the semantics of the test 2020-03-18T09:25:37Z aeth: So there's actually at least 3 possibilities. 2020-03-18T09:25:45Z no-defun-allowed: ...though my problems arose with LOOPing over a list, which usually is expanded to something that mutates bindings. 2020-03-18T09:26:03Z aeth: oh LOOP is even weirder 2020-03-18T09:26:37Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: my basic problem here is that i can't seem to understand why both rational and rationalize exist 2020-03-18T09:27:11Z aeth: the hyperspec has it 2020-03-18T09:27:38Z aeth: (rational .1) could be 13421773/134217728 and (rationalize .1) is 1/10 2020-03-18T09:28:17Z aeth: RATIONAL gives you what it is, RATIONALIZE gives you what you probably want it to be 2020-03-18T09:32:01Z shidima joined #lisp 2020-03-18T09:33:52Z iAmDecim: Just focus on the word choices. The latter is a verb so it’s acting out for you opposed to an actual rational 2020-03-18T09:34:13Z jd-mob joined #lisp 2020-03-18T09:36:13Z jd-mob quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T09:36:16Z ebzzry_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T09:39:11Z phoe: oooh, you mean *this* 2020-03-18T09:40:04Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: so you close over loop variables and have them mutated by the iteration 2020-03-18T09:44:40Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah. 2020-03-18T09:44:54Z shka_: aeth: ok? 2020-03-18T09:45:02Z shka_: i guess 2020-03-18T09:46:11Z aeth: shka_: remember that it probably looks like 1010100101010010101010000100110111 (pretend that's a correct length) and so it is necessarily a rational number already 2020-03-18T09:46:21Z flip214: trying (rationalize pi) gives me 245850922/78256779 2020-03-18T09:46:31Z aeth: we use them to represent reals, but they're not 2020-03-18T09:46:32Z flip214: that looks like a SHORT-FLOAT conversion... 2020-03-18T09:47:42Z aeth: flip214: no 2020-03-18T09:48:57Z aeth: flip214: (coerce 245850922/78256779 'double-float) and pi both print to 3.141592653589793d0 for me. Compare with (coerce pi 'single-float) which to me prints as 3.1415927 and then if you do (coerce (coerce pi 'single-float) 'double-float) you get 3.1415927410125732d0 2020-03-18T09:49:21Z flip214: aeth: 78256779 only has 27 bits, so that being used to represent a double-float with >40 bits mantissa seems lucky 2020-03-18T09:49:31Z aeth: and (rationalize (coerce pi 'single-float)) => 93343/29712 2020-03-18T09:49:39Z shka_: aeth: ok, thanks for explanation 2020-03-18T09:49:47Z shka_: this makes more sense to me now 2020-03-18T09:50:00Z ealfonsoe joined #lisp 2020-03-18T09:50:54Z aeth: flip214: there is some luck involved. What I just shows prints as 3.1415253 2020-03-18T09:51:07Z aeth: (when FLOATifid again) 2020-03-18T09:53:14Z heisig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T09:53:16Z _heisig joined #lisp 2020-03-18T09:54:47Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T09:55:37Z ealfonsoe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-18T09:57:34Z shidima quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T09:57:52Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-03-18T09:58:14Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-18T09:59:11Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2020-03-18T09:59:47Z jfb4_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:00:31Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-18T10:02:02Z quantico joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:02:18Z bars0_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:02:22Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-18T10:02:43Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:03:23Z omtrent joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:03:52Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, my issue noting a copy-paste mistake on safe-queue hasn't been noticed for about 6 months now. What should I do about it? 2020-03-18T10:04:22Z no-defun-allowed: When I had to wait six months last time, I just pinged the person by @name and it was responded to quickly, I guess. 2020-03-18T10:04:41Z dlowe_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:04:49Z jfb4 quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-18T10:04:49Z dlowe quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-18T10:04:49Z quantico_ quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-18T10:04:49Z zaquest quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-18T10:04:49Z dmiles quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-18T10:04:49Z PuercoPope quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-18T10:04:49Z bars0 quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-18T10:04:49Z hiroaki quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-18T10:04:49Z ravndal quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-18T10:04:49Z Intensity quit (*.net *.split) 2020-03-18T10:05:38Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:06:06Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:06:08Z phoe: say "bump" in the thread 2020-03-18T10:06:13Z phoe: in the worst case, just submit the PR 2020-03-18T10:06:15Z ebzzry_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:07:14Z lonjil quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-03-18T10:07:39Z no-defun-allowed: Right then. 2020-03-18T10:09:01Z lonjil joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:10:35Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:11:38Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:12:06Z donotturnoff quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-18T10:12:30Z donotturnoff joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:12:41Z flazh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T10:12:49Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T10:13:18Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:13:30Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:13:45Z lonjil quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-18T10:15:47Z lonjil joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:17:19Z _heisig is now known as heisig 2020-03-18T10:27:10Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T10:28:25Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:33:03Z sysz joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:33:37Z sysz quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-18T10:33:46Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T10:34:05Z arnaudga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-18T10:34:16Z thunderstruck joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:43:21Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:44:39Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T10:45:51Z jd-mob joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:48:07Z jd-mob quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T10:51:44Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:52:32Z MichaelRaskin quit (Quit: MichaelRaskin) 2020-03-18T10:53:10Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:54:03Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-18T10:54:26Z no-defun-allowed: That worked again. Does GitHub not notify people when someone creates an issue or pull request? 2020-03-18T10:54:26Z iAmDecim quit 2020-03-18T10:54:56Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-18T10:55:30Z phoe: It notifies them! It's people who forget about notifications though. 2020-03-18T10:55:53Z phoe: I last encountered then when I noticed my PR from like a year ago that I made to pgloader and then forget to clean up and merge. 2020-03-18T10:56:20Z no-defun-allowed: Bummer. 2020-03-18T11:01:21Z Shinmera: I try to stay on top of issues and prs but sometimes I just can't be bothered to deal with it at the moment, and then it gets lost in time. 2020-03-18T11:01:24Z ebzzry_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T11:02:04Z flazh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T11:02:47Z flazh joined #lisp 2020-03-18T11:04:06Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2020-03-18T11:05:01Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-18T11:06:45Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T11:14:05Z dlowe_ left #lisp 2020-03-18T11:14:26Z dlowe joined #lisp 2020-03-18T11:14:36Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T11:18:20Z jd-mob joined #lisp 2020-03-18T11:19:20Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-18T11:19:21Z jd-mob quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T11:19:48Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2020-03-18T11:24:08Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T11:42:21Z McParen quit (Quit: Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?) 2020-03-18T11:42:52Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-03-18T11:43:20Z ebzzry_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T11:43:33Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-18T11:47:23Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-18T11:47:47Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-18T11:50:31Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T11:51:49Z jd-mob joined #lisp 2020-03-18T11:53:17Z jd-mob quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-18T11:54:02Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T11:54:04Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-03-18T11:56:02Z xkapastel joined #lisp 2020-03-18T11:56:25Z flip214: I noticed that when you get a repo transferred you're not automatically subscribed - and a few similar cases where you wouldn't be notified about issues and PRs. 2020-03-18T11:57:52Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-03-18T11:58:56Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-18T11:59:49Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-03-18T11:59:54Z pmden quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. 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SBCL has a SB-KERNEL::NAME slot in the condition, is there some trivial- library? 2020-03-18T12:38:01Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2020-03-18T12:38:50Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-18T12:40:51Z phoe: flip214: cell-error-name 2020-03-18T12:41:04Z flip214: phoe: thanks! 2020-03-18T12:41:11Z phoe: www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_cell_e.htm 2020-03-18T12:41:17Z phoe: undefined-function is a cell-error 2020-03-18T12:41:41Z phoe: it's so trivial it's in the standard 2020-03-18T12:41:46Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-03-18T12:44:01Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-18T12:46:08Z pmden quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. 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Please /join #euclidpoint if you're interested. 2020-03-18T17:47:25Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-18T17:47:40Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-18T17:49:20Z grabarz quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Anywhere.) 2020-03-18T19:47:12Z pfdietz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T20:04:41Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-18T20:06:27Z grabarz joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:06:50Z shidima quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T20:07:08Z shidima joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:12:13Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-18T20:14:17Z vivit joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:14:18Z vivit quit (Changing host) 2020-03-18T20:14:18Z vivit joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:16:05Z vivit: Is there a library that provides abstraction for nested iteration? 2020-03-18T20:17:15Z vivit: If I want to use iter to loop over a two-dimensional array, for example, I have to write two nested loops. That creates a lot of code duplication. Is there a library that simplifies this? 2020-03-18T20:17:49Z knicklux joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:18:21Z dlowe: vivit: if you want to loop over a two-dimensional array, you can use row-major-aref to use a single loow 2020-03-18T20:18:22Z z147 joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:18:24Z dlowe: *loop 2020-03-18T20:18:27Z sjl_: iterate is extensible enough to allow you to write a nested iteration construct yourself, but doesn't provide one by default 2020-03-18T20:18:36Z sjl_: e.g. https://github.com/sjl/cl-losh/blob/master/src/iterate.lisp#L286 2020-03-18T20:18:57Z dlowe: row-major-aref will also allow you to loop over n-dimensional arrays 2020-03-18T20:19:30Z dlowe: however, it's hard to see how a two loops would create massive amounts of code duplication 2020-03-18T20:19:53Z v88m quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T20:20:00Z dlowe: wouldn't it just be (loop for y below height do (loop for x below width do ...))? 2020-03-18T20:20:15Z dlowe: (or whatever iter thing is in vogue) 2020-03-18T20:20:42Z alandipert: dlowe didn't know about row-major-aref, thanks for that 2020-03-18T20:21:55Z sjl_: loop or dotimes or whatever are okay if you just want to iterate for side effects. If you want to :collect or whatever then you need to bubble the results up through the intermediate loops. 2020-03-18T20:23:45Z specbot quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-18T20:23:51Z minion quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-18T20:24:04Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T20:25:14Z pjb: vivit: https://termbin.com/jtyi 2020-03-18T20:25:22Z aeth: sjl_: Sometimes you :collect and sometimes you :append the inner LOOPs, but, yes. 2020-03-18T20:25:24Z pjb: vivit: there's no library because it's too easy to write your own specific macro. 2020-03-18T20:26:15Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:27:55Z grabarz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T20:28:26Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:28:30Z aeth: pjb: right 2020-03-18T20:28:46Z aeth: It's pretty easy to e.g. make a macro that expands to a dotimes in a dotimes 2020-03-18T20:30:00Z aeth: `(dotimes (,outer-var ,outer-count ,result) (dotimes (,inner-var ,inner-count) ,@body)) 2020-03-18T20:30:33Z grabarz joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:31:18Z aeth: If you have to collect/append/sum/etc. then you should use a LOOP instead 2020-03-18T20:31:22Z dale_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:31:36Z dale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T20:31:47Z dale_ is now known as dale 2020-03-18T20:33:23Z pjb: When you have embedded loops, it may be easier to use another collector than the loop collectors. 2020-03-18T20:33:59Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:34:40Z pjb: (let ((collection '())) (flet ((collect (x) (push x collection))) (rloop ((for i below 3) (for j below 3) (for k below 3 do (collect (list i j k)))))) collection) -> ((2 2 2) (2 2 1) (2 2 0) (2 1 2) (2 1 1) (2 1 0) (2 0 2) (2 0 1) (2 0 0) (1 2 2) (1 2 1) (1 2 0) (1 1 2) (1 1 1) (1 1 0) (1 0 2) (1 0 1) (1 0 0) (0 2 2) (0 2 1) (0 2 0) (0 1 2) (0 1 1) (0 1 0) (0 0 2) (0 0 1) (0 0 0)) 2020-03-18T20:35:27Z pjb: and faster too. With loop, you'd have to use append or nconc and destroy it complexity-wise. 2020-03-18T20:37:44Z _death: you may also use displaced arrays, e.g. to flatten an array or work on rows of a matrix 2020-03-18T20:38:33Z pjb: Sometimes you can't. 2020-03-18T20:38:50Z pjb: displacing matrices wouldn't help in multiplying them. 2020-03-18T20:40:27Z |Pirx| quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T20:40:49Z |Pirx| joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:42:25Z vap1 joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:42:27Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:43:29Z _death: it could if you have one of them transposed 2020-03-18T20:44:36Z moon-child: is there a way to find the precision of the different floating-point types? I assume single-float and double-float are the same as whatever float and double are in c (ieee 754 32-bit and 64-bit precision). Is that true? What are short-float and long-float? 2020-03-18T20:45:13Z jackdaniel: moon-child: it is not specified whether common lisp floats are ieee 754 compatible (they usually are though) 2020-03-18T20:45:24Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-18T20:45:39Z jackdaniel: there is single-float-epsylon etc 2020-03-18T20:45:39Z _death: clhs float-precision 2020-03-18T20:46:27Z _death: minion got the corona.. 2020-03-18T20:46:58Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_dec_fl.htm 2020-03-18T20:47:02Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T20:49:19Z v88m joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:50:28Z splittist: jackdaniel: the McClim/5 thing looks great. 2020-03-18T20:51:04Z jackdaniel: thank you :) 2020-03-18T20:51:17Z minion joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:51:55Z specbot joined #lisp 2020-03-18T20:57:20Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-18T21:01:50Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-18T21:07:32Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-18T21:08:55Z shidima quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T21:09:07Z shidima joined #lisp 2020-03-18T21:11:27Z gareppa joined #lisp 2020-03-18T21:13:51Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T21:23:09Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T21:26:01Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-18T21:30:42Z gareppa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-18T21:31:51Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-18T21:43:12Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-18T21:48:08Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T21:50:10Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2020-03-18T21:52:25Z slyrus__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T21:58:26Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-18T22:02:04Z moon-child: Bike: that is helpful. I am confused, though; (float-digits 5.0) returns 24. But wikipedia says 32-bit ieee 754 has a 23-bit mantissa 2020-03-18T22:03:48Z Bike: "The true significand includes 23 fraction bits to the right of the binary point and an implicit leading bit (to the left of the binary point) with value 1, unless the exponent is stored with all zeros." 2020-03-18T22:04:14Z moon-child: oic 2020-03-18T22:04:36Z Bike: i suppose that is what the float-digits page means by "hidden bit" 2020-03-18T22:06:06Z Bike: by the way, even if an implementation didn't use IEEE754, the standard requires (to skip some parts) that a single float has at least 24 significand and 8 exponent bits, and a double has at least 50 significand and 8 exponent, so you should be fairly safe with most things 2020-03-18T22:06:22Z Bike: i don't know if there are any modern lisps that don't use IEEE754 for at least singles and doubles, though 2020-03-18T22:10:06Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-18T22:10:49Z shidima` joined #lisp 2020-03-18T22:11:01Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-18T22:12:19Z moon-child: I care less about minimum precision than maximum precision--want to make sure they're not taking up too much memory 2020-03-18T22:13:11Z ArthurStrong quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-03-18T22:15:00Z shidima quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T22:15:39Z Bike: these operators don't reflect memory usage. for example on a 32 bit implementation, single floats will probably be boxed 2020-03-18T22:16:43Z moon-child: but if I have a vector of all float, that can be detected, right? 2020-03-18T22:16:59Z aeth: :element-type 'single-float or :element-type 'double-float 2020-03-18T22:17:02Z aeth: You need to do it manually 2020-03-18T22:17:09Z aeth: (in MAKE-ARRAY) 2020-03-18T22:17:25Z aeth: There's a chance that that implementation still won't optimize it, but that's not an implementation you should be using for this sort of thing, anyway 2020-03-18T22:17:43Z moon-child: I'm probably only supporting sbcl, so yah that's fine 2020-03-18T22:19:49Z aeth: (64-bit) SBCL is pretty smart. You can make your own box for double-floats by keeping them in arrays with element-type double-float 2020-03-18T22:20:19Z aeth: Then as long as they don't leave the function scope, they won't get heap-allocated. 2020-03-18T22:20:25Z Lycurgus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T22:20:34Z aeth: You will have to use type declarations, though. 2020-03-18T22:21:22Z aeth: something like this iirc: (defun foo (a) (declare (type (simple-array double-float (*)) a)) (incf (aref a 0)) a) 2020-03-18T22:21:44Z aeth: if you don't return A at the end, then it will box the result, though, since INCF will implicitly return the number 2020-03-18T22:21:59Z moon-child: ahh, cool 2020-03-18T22:22:41Z aeth: Not every implementation will do this, but every implementation could do this if someone submits patches. Of course, what leaves scope will depend on the implementations. e.g. SBCL will allocate if you print that float with FORMAT, but in theory an implementation might be able to optimize that away, too 2020-03-18T22:22:52Z aeth: In SBCL (declare (optimize (speed 3))) will tell you these things as a note 2020-03-18T22:22:58Z Bike: if you rae using sbcl, you should declare a high optimize level, which will make sbcl spit out a note for everything you're doing suboptimally 2020-03-18T22:23:02Z Bike: it's a lot of output 2020-03-18T22:24:16Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T22:25:01Z vhost- joined #lisp 2020-03-18T22:25:01Z vhost- quit (Changing host) 2020-03-18T22:25:02Z vhost- joined #lisp 2020-03-18T22:26:58Z varjagg quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2020-03-18T22:29:41Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-18T22:30:55Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-18T22:31:25Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T22:34:05Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-18T22:35:21Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-03-18T22:36:21Z donotturnoff quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-18T22:39:27Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-18T22:39:43Z madage joined #lisp 2020-03-18T22:42:15Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T22:43:17Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-18T22:44:10Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-18T22:47:56Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T22:53:10Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-03-18T22:54:40Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2020-03-18T22:55:15Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-18T23:06:30Z z147 quit (Quit: z147) 2020-03-18T23:06:45Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-18T23:10:56Z trocado joined #lisp 2020-03-18T23:11:37Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-18T23:25:02Z grabarz quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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So you can say something like (vec2:dec v (format nil "(~a,~a)" x y)) instead of having to manually aref 2020-03-19T03:38:52Z moon-child: I came up with this http://sprunge.us/hof6T2?cl, but it doesn't work because the x and y symbols are local to the 'vec2' package, and so hidden from whatever package is using the macro 2020-03-19T03:38:57Z moon-child: how can I fix it? 2020-03-19T03:39:18Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe you should let the client pick what symbols it wants bound. 2020-03-19T03:39:55Z no-defun-allowed: Then I could write, say (dec (x1 y1) v1 (dec (x2 y2) v2 (make-vector (+ x1 x2) (+ y1 y2)))) to sum two vectors v1 and v2. 2020-03-19T03:39:55Z moon-child: I don't want to do that 2020-03-19T03:40:40Z moon-child: there will be a second form (vec2:dec (v u) (make-vector (+ x1 y1) (+ x2 y2))), which just adds increasing numbers to the parameters 2020-03-19T03:40:52Z moon-child: but that doesn't work because just exposing symbols doesn't work 2020-03-19T03:42:11Z moon-child: I see someone else did it like this https://github.com/mfiano/origin/blob/master/src/internal.lisp#L8. Is there a prettier way? 2020-03-19T03:47:02Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2020-03-19T03:48:43Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T03:54:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T03:55:17Z oni-on-ion joined #lisp 2020-03-19T03:55:32Z oni-on-ion: oh. #guile asks: how come, when calling with zero arguments, (*) => 1, (+) => 0, (-) => error? 2020-03-19T03:56:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-19T03:57:23Z no-defun-allowed: Here is my intuition: (+ 1) = (+ 1 0) take 1 from both sides: (+) = (+ 0) 2020-03-19T03:57:29Z oni-on-ion: (i am getting the same in sbcl) 2020-03-19T03:57:41Z Bike: because - isn't defined in as regular a way 2020-03-19T03:57:48Z no-defun-allowed: (* 2 1) = (* 2) take 2 from both sides: (* 2) = (*) 2020-03-19T03:58:17Z Bike: (- x) = (negate x), (- x ...) = (+ x (- (+ ...))) 2020-03-19T03:58:19Z no-defun-allowed: I can't think of anything like that which makes sense for -. 2020-03-19T03:58:25Z oni-on-ion: you mean (* 1) = (*) ? 2020-03-19T03:58:38Z no-defun-allowed: Ah yeah, my bad. (* 1) = (*) 2020-03-19T03:59:10Z oni-on-ion: (/) also errors for the same reason as (-) [not enough args] 2020-03-19T03:59:37Z Bike: it's defined in the same way. single arg is reciprocal, multi arg is multiplication with reciprocal 2020-03-19T04:00:03Z oni-on-ion: oh, right 2020-03-19T04:00:07Z ebzzry_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-19T04:00:25Z oni-on-ion: wait (/) and (-) are ? 2020-03-19T04:00:30Z Bike: yes 2020-03-19T04:00:38Z oni-on-ion: ok =) 2020-03-19T04:00:41Z Bike: i just checked the guile manual and it defines - in the same way, so i don't think i understand why this question is coming from them 2020-03-19T04:01:06Z Bike: too 2020-03-19T04:01:15Z Bike: "If called with one argument z1, -z1 is returned. Otherwise the sum of all but the first argument are subtracted from the first argument. " 2020-03-19T04:01:56Z aeth: They're defined inductively, and (*) and (+) can start at 0, so they do. (-) and (/) cannot because they start at 2 with special case behavior for length 1. 2020-03-19T04:02:25Z aeth: (- x) has to behave the way it does because otherwise (- x) would be x and you'd need another function for negation and this would be syntactically counterintuitive 2020-03-19T04:02:50Z oni-on-ion: i have no mouse and i wonder if i can paste those lines there , they seem to be having trouble with it and these clear it right up for me. 2020-03-19T04:02:53Z aeth: I guess (/ x) is there because it's useful while (/ x) defined like (* x) would be useless 2020-03-19T04:04:03Z aeth: (/ x) also parallels (- x) because (- x) is (- 0 x) and (/ x) is (/ 1 x) in other words (- x) is (- (+) x) and (/ x) is (/ (*) x) 2020-03-19T04:04:16Z oni-on-ion: hmm cool =) 2020-03-19T04:05:41Z aeth: It's actually mathematically very neat because the additive identity is (+) and the multiplicative identity is (*) so you never need any numbers! 2020-03-19T04:05:48Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-03-19T04:06:38Z aeth: You can build the numbers like (+), (+ (*)), (+ (*) (*)), ..., and now you have yet another way to construct numbers from first principles in Common Lisp 2020-03-19T04:07:12Z akoana: true, and so (/ (*)) gives 1 and (- (+)) 0 2020-03-19T04:07:59Z akoana: nice, indeed 2020-03-19T04:09:24Z oni-on-ion: is this ok for me to share with #guile? -> http://ix.io/2eEc/text 2020-03-19T04:09:51Z oni-on-ion: i wont say where its from 2020-03-19T04:10:49Z aeth: sure? 2020-03-19T04:12:15Z akoana thinks, Mr. Peano wouldn't care :) 2020-03-19T04:13:47Z aeth: Completely pointless, but fun: (defun f (i) (labels ((g (j) (if (= j i) j (g (+ j (*)))))) (g (+)))) 2020-03-19T04:13:48Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T04:14:47Z oni-on-ion: no defun allowed! only serious work =) 2020-03-19T04:15:29Z axion: moon-child: There is nothing ugly about my method. That function is called at compile-time for use inside symbol-macrolet to expand into aref calls. Alternatively you could just define your vector objects as structs with a vector :type, and slots to be specialized arrays, and a good implementation will produce nearly the same machine code as AREF for named accessors 2020-03-19T04:15:45Z aeth: oni-on-ion: no defun? Well, okay. (setf (fdefinition 'f) (lambda (i) (labels ((g (j) (if (= j i) j (g (+ j (*)))))) (g (+))))) 2020-03-19T04:15:49Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion: No, there's two negatives. You're not allowed to de-fun. 2020-03-19T04:16:24Z no-defun-allowed: i.e. d fun / d t must not be less than 0 2020-03-19T04:16:40Z akoana: haha 2020-03-19T04:18:00Z aeth: in case anyone is confused, it's just an obfuscation of (defun f (i) i) if f is a nonnegative integer... and an infinite loop if f is any other number :-p 2020-03-19T04:18:06Z aeth: I probably should've, uh, restricted it 2020-03-19T04:19:11Z aeth: well >= instead of = makes it (max 0 (ceiling i)) 2020-03-19T04:26:48Z akoana: aeth: thanks for the improvement, the previous version punished me with an infinite loop for negative input - maybe that was too rude ;) 2020-03-19T04:27:16Z aeth: (defun f (i) (labels ((g (j) (if (>= j i) j (g (+ j (*)))))) (g (+)))) 2020-03-19T04:27:35Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2020-03-19T04:27:50Z aeth: now hopefully (haltp #'f) => T 2020-03-19T04:28:17Z akoana: thanks, verified ;) 2020-03-19T04:28:25Z no-defun-allowed: (haltp #'haltp) 2020-03-19T04:28:40Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: well? I'm waiting... 2020-03-19T04:29:10Z no-defun-allowed: (haltp (labels ((f (x) (if (haltp #'x) (loop) x))) #'f)) 2020-03-19T04:30:43Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: T 2020-03-19T04:30:48Z aeth: that just returns # 2020-03-19T04:30:49Z aeth: :-) 2020-03-19T04:31:46Z no-defun-allowed: (labels ((f (x) (if (haltp #'f x) (loop) x))) (f :maybe)) 2020-03-19T04:33:59Z aeth: akoana: more seriously, it's always good practice to do >= in loops rather than = and I just demonstrated why 2020-03-19T04:34:24Z akoana: hmm, good point 2020-03-19T04:35:36Z aeth: Fortunately, both :below and :to do so in LOOP, e.g. :from 100 :below 10 doesn't run, as expected, but :from 100 :to 10 doesn't infinite loop, which it might have with = semantics 2020-03-19T04:35:49Z aeth: well, I hope that's not implementation-specific... 2020-03-19T04:36:30Z aeth: also e.g. (loop :for i :from 1 :to 10 :by 5/3 :do (print i)) 2020-03-19T04:36:56Z aeth: with = semantics that's an infinite loop, too 2020-03-19T04:37:40Z aeth: fortunately, it terminates 2020-03-19T04:38:26Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-19T04:38:48Z akoana: it's a sign of good design 2020-03-19T04:44:01Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-03-19T04:48:25Z aeth: and I'm guessing a cryptic, obfuscated use of LABELS is not good design? :-( 2020-03-19T04:50:16Z akoana: lol, depends... 2020-03-19T04:51:29Z akoana: ... on the design goal :) 2020-03-19T04:53:00Z ebzzry_ joined #lisp 2020-03-19T04:53:41Z dale quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep) 2020-03-19T05:02:15Z Josh_2: jackdaniel: very kewl :D 2020-03-19T05:02:43Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-19T05:10:59Z KDr24 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T05:12:35Z KDr24 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T05:21:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T05:21:32Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2020-03-19T05:21:45Z sauvin joined #lisp 2020-03-19T05:23:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-19T05:29:09Z devrtz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T05:30:13Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-19T05:30:27Z devrtz joined #lisp 2020-03-19T05:30:37Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-03-19T05:33:47Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-19T05:34:02Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-19T05:34:32Z oni-on-ion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T05:34:54Z oni-on-ion joined #lisp 2020-03-19T05:35:37Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-19T05:35:45Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-03-19T05:36:10Z moon-child: axion: upon further examination of your solution (ignoring the string munging) it does look a lot prettier. But actually, I don't think it would work for my purposes; it requires you to pass in a symbol, so it knows the namespace of the caller 2020-03-19T05:43:54Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-03-19T05:43:57Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-19T05:44:40Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-03-19T05:47:27Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-19T05:49:40Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-19T05:51:36Z Josh_2: Morning beach 2020-03-19T05:57:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T05:59:17Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-19T06:00:43Z patrixl left #lisp 2020-03-19T06:12:38Z akoana left #lisp 2020-03-19T06:19:53Z lansiir joined #lisp 2020-03-19T06:20:17Z no-defun-allowed: moon-child: I still think it would be better to allow the client to pick the symbols that they want bound. 2020-03-19T06:21:38Z oldtopman quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T06:21:47Z no-defun-allowed: How often do you dance in the shallows of a river?^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W Maybe you could intern new symbols in the current package, if you're sure you want to do that. 2020-03-19T06:22:00Z moon-child: heh 2020-03-19T06:22:25Z moon-child: I'm the only consumer of my library, and I prefer the other usage. Also I figured it out: ,(read-from-string "x") seems to do what I want 2020-03-19T06:22:32Z no-defun-allowed: clhs intern 2020-03-19T06:22:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 2020-03-19T06:26:13Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-19T06:27:22Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T06:28:42Z no-defun-allowed: You might end up with a macro that looks like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1710 2020-03-19T06:32:13Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-03-19T06:33:14Z moon-child: ...pretty much, yah 2020-03-19T06:33:19Z moon-child: http://sprunge.us/xLUT0k?cl 2020-03-19T06:39:25Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-19T06:41:01Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-19T06:42:54Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-03-19T06:43:35Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-19T06:46:46Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T07:00:54Z KDr24 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T07:02:30Z KDr24 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T07:05:27Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-19T07:08:59Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-19T07:13:47Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2020-03-19T07:16:17Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2020-03-19T07:22:54Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-19T07:25:30Z srji joined #lisp 2020-03-19T07:31:45Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-19T07:31:58Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T07:32:48Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-19T07:38:35Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-19T07:40:39Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-19T07:45:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T07:47:16Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-03-19T07:47:57Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-03-19T07:49:11Z shangul quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-19T07:57:08Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-03-19T07:57:28Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-03-19T07:58:13Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-03-19T08:00:14Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:00:47Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T08:01:08Z zmt01 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:04:25Z KDr24 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:04:46Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:07:47Z mgsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:08:07Z kilimanjaro quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:08:25Z wilfredh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:08:30Z tfb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:08:30Z banjiewen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:08:30Z Balooga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:08:30Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:08:37Z pent quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:08:37Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:08:38Z mjl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:08:40Z Balooga joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:09:04Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:09:04Z ullbeking quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:09:04Z asedeno quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:09:04Z lukego quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:09:04Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:09:07Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:09:12Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:09:18Z mgsk joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:09:22Z mjl joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:09:25Z tfb joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:09:27Z jlpeters quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:09:27Z chewbranca quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:09:27Z l1x quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:10:05Z billstclair joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:10:13Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:10:19Z banjiewen joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:10:25Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:11:05Z jlpeters joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:11:06Z rvirding joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:11:11Z lukego joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:11:13Z asedeno joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:11:15Z p_l joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:11:22Z chewbranca joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:11:25Z pent joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:11:26Z drmeister joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:11:35Z hydan joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:12:05Z l1x joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:12:12Z ullbeking joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:17:42Z even4void quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-03-19T08:18:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:30:24Z parjanya: mornings! what serialis/zation package would you recommend? I tried the "save-object" one mentioned on cliki.net, but it does need some maintenance; I tried hu.dwim.serializer before, but I was hoping for something simpler 2020-03-19T08:31:06Z no-defun-allowed: What do you need to serialize? 2020-03-19T08:31:24Z pjb: parjanya: it really depends on what data structures you want to serialize. 2020-03-19T08:31:43Z KDr24 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:31:50Z pjb: parjanya: and also, what's the destination of the serialized data. You may have constraints on the format or not. 2020-03-19T08:32:04Z pjb: parjanya: there are a lot of libraries that can be used for serialization. 2020-03-19T08:32:18Z KDr24 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T08:32:37Z no-defun-allowed: You may get away with just writing your graph to a file with WRITE and reading it back with READ, with *print-circle* and *print-readably* set to T, if you have appropriate PRINT-OBJECT methods. 2020-03-19T08:33:03Z pjb: parjanya: for example, my heap package could be used for it. It doesn't really serialize, but it copies a lisp data structure into another lisp data structure, in a specific format, that can be stored in a byte vector that can be transfered or saved. 2020-03-19T08:33:49Z parjanya: I just need to serialize objects with plists and such things... it would be nice if it was not binary, but not necessary 2020-03-19T08:33:52Z KDr24 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:34:28Z KDr24 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T08:34:54Z pjb: parjanya: prin1 and read can be enough. 2020-03-19T08:35:02Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:35:26Z vivit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-19T08:35:33Z no-defun-allowed talks to the wind; at least to pjb who doesn't read it 2020-03-19T08:35:33Z pjb: parjanya: if you have clos objects, you can define a print-object method on your classes, and either output #.(make-instance …) strings, or define a specific reader macro. 2020-03-19T08:35:44Z pjb: parjanya: you can see an example of that in gsharp. 2020-03-19T08:36:01Z KDr24 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:36:02Z pjb: parjanya: the advantage of doing that is that you get free cycle processing thru #=/## 2020-03-19T08:36:40Z parjanya: pjb: anything I could read about this? 2020-03-19T08:36:58Z pjb: I have a clone of gsharp at https://github.com/informatimago/gsharp 2020-03-19T08:38:28Z White_Flame: structures also print readably by default, if you're using them. Arrays print their contents, but their various config data isn't included 2020-03-19T08:38:54Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:39:15Z aeth: structs, of course, can have print-object, too 2020-03-19T08:39:27Z White_Flame: yep, anything with a class can 2020-03-19T08:39:32Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:39:47Z White_Flame: (or at least something close to that) 2020-03-19T08:40:08Z aeth: which doesn't include conditions in SBCL iirc 2020-03-19T08:40:12Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:40:17Z parjanya: pjb: tx :) aha, I remember having perused your site quite a lot already 2020-03-19T08:40:25Z pjb: parjanya: see for example: https://github.com/informatimago/gsharp/blob/master/buffer.lisp 2020-03-19T08:40:26Z aeth: someone was complaining about something along the lines of conditions not being truly integrated, at least 2020-03-19T08:40:51Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, that is an X13J3 issue noted in the CLHS. 2020-03-19T08:40:53Z pjb: parjanya: note the use of a version dispatcher ;-) 2020-03-19T08:41:01Z grabarz joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:41:22Z no-defun-allowed: See CLOS-CONDITIONS:INTEGRATE http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss049_w.htm 2020-03-19T08:42:51Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: so will it get resolved in a new version of the standard? 2020-03-19T08:43:09Z no-defun-allowed: CLtL3 confirmed 2020-03-19T08:44:25Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:47:12Z White_Flame: aeth: huh, I define print methods on custom conditions and haven't had any issues with SBCL 2020-03-19T08:47:25Z White_Flame: is it the built-in ones that don't work? 2020-03-19T08:50:13Z william1 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:50:47Z pjb: aeth: really, the problem is that it's heavily implementation dependent. 2020-03-19T08:51:08Z pjb: aeth: routinely, when you change the implementation of a library function, you can see that you don't detect the same errors. 2020-03-19T08:51:27Z pmden joined #lisp 2020-03-19T08:51:28Z pjb: when the code changes, it doesn't signal the same conditions. 2020-03-19T08:54:16Z parjanya: ohh apparently structs are indeed foolproof enough for me to use : o ) 2020-03-19T08:55:42Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T08:56:15Z ukari joined #lisp 2020-03-19T09:03:30Z KDr24 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T09:04:10Z KDr2 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T09:05:03Z HiRE_ joined #lisp 2020-03-19T09:05:28Z HiRE quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T09:06:44Z beach: pjb: The term "CLOS object" is meaningless. 2020-03-19T09:08:49Z pent quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-19T09:09:13Z pent joined #lisp 2020-03-19T09:09:52Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-03-19T09:14:26Z william1_ joined #lisp 2020-03-19T09:14:43Z iAmDecim: i like that you all are still active on IRC...all hours. *observing* 2020-03-19T09:15:53Z parjanya: still? 2020-03-19T09:16:07Z datajerk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-03-19T09:16:27Z iAmDecim: parjanya: a lot of people are going to slack and I hate slack. lol. impersonal... 2020-03-19T09:17:57Z william1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T09:18:11Z parjanya: after googling... proprietary, written in electron, what’s not to dislike? ; ) 2020-03-19T09:18:34Z iAmDecim: lol...how much time do you have? 2020-03-19T09:22:31Z datajerk joined #lisp 2020-03-19T09:22:32Z White_Flame: iAmDecim: there's this thing called timezones... 2020-03-19T09:22:33Z knicklux joined #lisp 2020-03-19T09:23:11Z iAmDecim: White_Flame: timezones are a hoax... 2020-03-19T09:23:43Z iAmDecim: jk...jk. 2020-03-19T09:26:25Z |Pirx| joined #lisp 2020-03-19T09:28:19Z pjb: beach: ok, then s/CLOS object/standard-object/. 2020-03-19T09:28:29Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-03-19T09:29:29Z pjb: iAmDecim: https://termbin.com/49s8 2020-03-19T09:29:30Z pjb: 2020-03-19T09:35:52Z beach: pjb: Right. 2020-03-19T09:39:01Z iAmDecim: =O 2020-03-19T09:40:02Z no-defun-allowed: minion: tell pjb about Universal Greeting Time 2020-03-19T09:40:02Z minion: pjb: look at Universal Greeting Time: It is always morning when a person enters a channel, and late night when they leave. You may want to read http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html for further information 2020-03-19T09:41:02Z loke: no-defun-allowed: that's a stupid idea. Sorry, but it had to be said. 2020-03-19T09:41:48Z no-defun-allowed: If more people are joining than leaving, it is morning, and vice versa for afternoon. 2020-03-19T09:42:31Z jdz: So we all start using Beijing time? 2020-03-19T09:42:57Z loke: jdz: That's fine by me. That's my timezone already. 2020-03-19T09:43:10Z jdz: Immediately regretting my decision to get engaged in an off-topic conversation. 2020-03-19T09:43:15Z no-defun-allowed: That would personally benefit me, because Beijing isn't too far from here. 2020-03-19T09:43:27Z loke: no-defun-allowed: where are you located? 2020-03-19T09:43:58Z no-defun-allowed: Melbourne, Australia 2020-03-19T09:45:02Z no-defun-allowed: Or, for a more bespoke standard for #lisp et al, it's morning when beach announces it, afternoon starts 8 hours after that, then night another 8 hours after afternoon. 2020-03-19T09:46:39Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-19T09:47:26Z loke: no-defun-allowed: I'm OK with that. Beach is very reliable. 2020-03-19T09:48:20Z even4void quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2020-03-19T12:51:07Z pjb: jmercouris: you will often write lisp wrappers of C functions, if only to deal with error cases. 2020-03-19T12:51:24Z Nilby joined #lisp 2020-03-19T12:51:29Z pjb: jmercouris: so you can signal lisp conditions instead of returning status codes. 2020-03-19T12:51:32Z jmercouris: right 2020-03-19T12:52:47Z Bike: you could define a macro to combine them somehow i guess, but cffi doesn't provide one and i haven't seen such a thing 2020-03-19T12:53:19Z jmercouris: I think it could be a little bit enater 2020-03-19T12:53:23Z jmercouris: s/enater/neater 2020-03-19T12:53:57Z mrcom joined #lisp 2020-03-19T12:53:59Z pjb: Of course, you will use macros, to deal with homogeneous APIs. 2020-03-19T12:54:00Z Bike: well, give it a shot, and if it's nice maybe cffi could incorporate it 2020-03-19T12:54:35Z jmercouris: yeah, I will try at some time 2020-03-19T12:54:37Z _death: my preference is to have a low-level package containing the C-based interface and a high-level package containing a Lispy interface.. working with C interfaces directly tends to be suboptimal 2020-03-19T12:54:57Z pjb: jmercouris: have a look at: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/clext/pkcs11 for example. 2020-03-19T12:54:59Z vanjulio joined #lisp 2020-03-19T12:55:31Z pjb: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/clext/pkcs11/pkcs11-cffi.lisp contains the CFFI definitions, and https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/clext/pkcs11/pkcs11.lisp contains the wrappers. 2020-03-19T12:56:20Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-19T12:56:20Z Nilby: jmercouris: You could also define a type converter, e.g. with defining a method on cffi:translaste-from-foreign 2020-03-19T12:56:37Z libertyprime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-19T12:57:26Z jmercouris: pjb: right, so kind of like what _death said 2020-03-19T12:57:35Z jmercouris: Nilby: 1 2020-03-19T12:57:51Z pjb: jmercouris: exactly. 2020-03-19T12:59:26Z pjb: Notably, it's nice to have a pure CFFI low-level API to directly call C when needed, but it is an unsafe API, so you need to wrap it to ensure C functions are called in a way that won't crash, and that you can use the high level API safely interactively, even if you don't know how to use it. 2020-03-19T13:00:41Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T13:01:03Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-19T13:03:24Z libertyprime joined #lisp 2020-03-19T13:05:37Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-19T13:07:08Z Xach: beach: does the trucler project have a trucler.asd? trucler-test.asd seems to expect one but I don't see it. 2020-03-19T13:07:23Z beach: Oh? How strange. 2020-03-19T13:07:32Z beach: Hold on. Let me look... 2020-03-19T13:09:01Z beach: There is not a trucler.asd, but there is trucler-reference.asd, trucler-native.asd and trucler-base.asd 2020-03-19T13:09:09Z ebzzry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T13:09:25Z grabarz joined #lisp 2020-03-19T13:09:43Z Xach: What is trucler-test meant to use, I wonder? 2020-03-19T13:10:13Z beach: I see not trucler-test.asd. Only trucler-native-test.asd 2020-03-19T13:10:22Z Necktwi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-19T13:10:41Z beach: It depends on trucler-base and trucler-native. 2020-03-19T13:10:46Z Bike: trucler-test.asd is in the master branch on s expressionists 2020-03-19T13:11:00Z Bike: are you looking at a different repo maybe? 2020-03-19T13:11:04Z Xach: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Trucler/blob/master/Test/trucler-test.asd is what I mean 2020-03-19T13:11:10Z Xach: That is the only repo I know of, sorry 2020-03-19T13:11:13Z Xach: maybe it is not the right one? 2020-03-19T13:11:20Z beach: Ah, sorry, yes I see it. 2020-03-19T13:11:44Z beach: It might be obsolete. 2020-03-19T13:12:10Z beach: You need to check with heisig. I don't know myself. 2020-03-19T13:12:15Z Xach: ok 2020-03-19T13:12:20Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-19T13:13:59Z splittist: Would be nice to have non-TeX documentation, too. But lots of things would be nice, and this isn't even in the top 7... 2020-03-19T13:14:51Z beach: I have come to the conclusion that no matter what surface syntax is used for the documentation, around 90% of people are dissatisfied with it. 2020-03-19T13:15:17Z beach: Mainly because there are so many different choices, and everyone seems to have a different preference. 2020-03-19T13:15:48Z beach: This is also why I would like to see a documentation system based on CLOS protocols rather than surface syntax. 2020-03-19T13:16:00Z beach: But I think jackdaniel is working on such a thing. 2020-03-19T13:16:46Z jackdaniel: I do, as well as dizen of other things though :) 2020-03-19T13:17:00Z beach: Yeah, I know. 2020-03-19T13:17:11Z joels joined #lisp 2020-03-19T13:17:20Z jackdaniel: be vary of eu.turtlewate.london system which will emerge one day :) 2020-03-19T13:17:35Z jackdaniel: as Jack London ;) 2020-03-19T13:24:13Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T13:37:25Z flamebeard quit 2020-03-19T13:37:33Z ssake quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-19T13:37:46Z ssake joined #lisp 2020-03-19T13:41:23Z g0d_shatter joined #lisp 2020-03-19T13:42:22Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-03-19T13:44:40Z heisig: Xach: Yes, the toplevel test suite of Trucler has some bitrot. Give me 10 minutes... 2020-03-19T13:47:43Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-19T13:48:17Z gko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T13:48:51Z greaser|q quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T13:49:02Z creat quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2020-03-19T13:49:15Z grabarz quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2020-03-19T13:49:15Z heisig: ... fixed. I also added a trucler.asd file that loads all the other Trucler systems. 2020-03-19T13:49:19Z creat joined #lisp 2020-03-19T13:49:28Z beach: Thanks heisig. 2020-03-19T13:50:07Z greaser|q joined #lisp 2020-03-19T13:50:44Z gko joined #lisp 2020-03-19T13:50:51Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T13:52:16Z clothespin joined #lisp 2020-03-19T13:52:30Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2020-03-19T13:52:48Z eschulte joined #lisp 2020-03-19T13:55:41Z eschulte: _death I ended up folding two functions from that ELF/Capstone patch you sent me into my nascent CFFI Capstone package. Are you okay with me publishing that code as part of this package (I'm planning to release it under an MIT license)? 2020-03-19T13:56:36Z eschulte: They're the functions that parse Capstone opcode strings into Sexprs. I inline comments attributing them to _death. 2020-03-19T14:00:41Z sz0 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:00:43Z ebzzry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-19T14:01:55Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:02:20Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T14:02:49Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:04:25Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-19T14:04:38Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:06:40Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:09:43Z niceplace quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-19T14:14:21Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T14:15:47Z niceplace joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:18:47Z _death: eschulte: sure 2020-03-19T14:21:19Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2020-03-19T14:25:00Z clothespin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-19T14:25:50Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:27:02Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:27:20Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T14:29:10Z shidima joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:29:35Z _death: eschulte: like it says in the commit message, though, it's an "ugly hack" :)... in all likelihood it's incomplete, inefficient, does not work with other architectures, depends on the exact textual output of capstone, etc. 2020-03-19T14:29:51Z eschulte: _death: great, thanks. I'll post a link here when I get it up 2020-03-19T14:29:56Z shidima: Does any one have a working code excample of how to host a css file with hunchentoot? 2020-03-19T14:30:09Z eschulte: Yeah, I'll drop a TODO in next to that code. TODO/FIXME innoculation against judgement 2020-03-19T14:30:23Z shidima: I have tried different ways of doing it but I can't seem to get it right 2020-03-19T14:30:44Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T14:30:52Z Xach: shidima: i don't have short working code handy to share, but i can tell you that it is no different from serving any other content in general. 2020-03-19T14:31:14Z Xach: shidima: are you able to serve, say, html files? 2020-03-19T14:35:06Z lucasb joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:35:25Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T14:37:34Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:43:28Z stepnem joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:44:50Z KDr24 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T14:49:37Z oni-on-ion joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:51:25Z shidima: euh, let me check 2020-03-19T14:55:25Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:56:01Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T14:56:57Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2020-03-19T14:58:40Z pmden quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. 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Apart from doing CFFI:INC-POINTER? 2020-03-19T15:18:14Z oni_on_ion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-19T15:18:38Z oni-on-ion joined #lisp 2020-03-19T15:20:42Z pjb: flip214: you could use the address of the end of the field, and a decrement. So you would be doing a DEC-POINTER instead. 2020-03-19T15:21:19Z pjb: flip214: using the address of the end and a decrement was really a smart idea of early computings, this this avoided buffer overflow implicitely (the decrement couldn't be negative!). 2020-03-19T15:21:47Z pjb: flip214: basically C is a good low-level language. What's to be thrown away, is the standard library, and almost all libraries written in C. 2020-03-19T15:22:23Z pjb: void* good_malloc(int size){ return ((char*)malloc(size))+size; } 2020-03-19T15:23:54Z oni-on-ion: =/ 2020-03-19T15:24:32Z jmercouris: =), turn that frown upside down 2020-03-19T15:25:54Z oni-on-ion: C is fine for all the stuff we dont have to write =) 2020-03-19T15:29:06Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T15:31:56Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-19T15:32:50Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-03-19T15:32:57Z davepdot_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-19T15:35:01Z varjagg joined #lisp 2020-03-19T15:38:01Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-19T15:39:54Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2020-03-19T15:41:13Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-03-19T15:43:50Z KDr24 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T15:44:40Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T15:48:25Z KDr24 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T15:48:45Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-03-19T15:50:49Z dale_ joined #lisp 2020-03-19T15:51:09Z dale_ is now known as dale 2020-03-19T15:51:25Z chip2n quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-03-19T15:51:25Z pmden quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. 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It seems like an intersting framework 2020-03-19T17:41:54Z jebes joined #lisp 2020-03-19T17:46:20Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-19T17:50:12Z shidima quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T17:50:35Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T17:53:32Z pmden joined #lisp 2020-03-19T17:53:53Z pmden quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-19T17:56:44Z gko_ joined #lisp 2020-03-19T17:58:27Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-03-19T17:58:36Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:00:03Z gareppa joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:00:54Z davepdot_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T18:01:14Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T18:01:29Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:01:32Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T18:01:33Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T18:06:20Z davepdot_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T18:08:39Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-19T18:11:53Z ecraven quit (Quit: bye) 2020-03-19T18:12:44Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T18:15:58Z varjagg left #lisp 2020-03-19T18:25:08Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-03-19T18:25:49Z Jesin joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:25:56Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:26:30Z g0d_shatter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-19T18:27:35Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:28:11Z afry joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:31:21Z efm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T18:31:26Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-03-19T18:31:39Z afry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T18:31:44Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:32:16Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:32:37Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-19T18:34:59Z jcowan joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:35:25Z jcowan: Is it true that some Lisp objects belong only to class T? Does this happen in practice? 2020-03-19T18:36:11Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-03-19T18:36:44Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-19T18:38:46Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:38:50Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:38:52Z phoe: jcowan: don't think so 2020-03-19T18:39:18Z jcowan: Presumably an implementation could add a new kind of object without a CLOS type, though it seems stupid to do so. 2020-03-19T18:39:21Z phoe: at least not in standard Lisp 2020-03-19T18:39:27Z jcowan: Sure. 2020-03-19T18:39:49Z phoe: also what you said - implementations would prefer to have some sort of class for the objects, if only for segregation purposes 2020-03-19T18:40:40Z phoe: usually they're instances of built-in classes, since these are already the most get-your-hands-off-me kind of classes in Lisp 2020-03-19T18:41:45Z phoe: for objects that are absolutely the weirdest kinds, e.g. SBCL has SB-KERNEL::RANDOM-CLASS 2020-03-19T18:42:23Z Bike: you could phrase this as: an object that's a direct instance of T 2020-03-19T18:42:31Z Bike: it would be a silly thing to do but i don't think the standard disallows it 2020-03-19T18:43:50Z phoe: I think the same thing 2020-03-19T18:44:29Z jackdaniel: (make-instance 't²) ;) 2020-03-19T18:44:53Z Bike: clhs t 2020-03-19T18:44:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_t.htm 2020-03-19T18:45:08Z Bike: no mention 2020-03-19T18:47:32Z _leb joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:47:41Z danielboston26 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:48:24Z phoe: if you want some implementation-defined fun, (sb-pcl:class-prototype (find-class 't)) 2020-03-19T18:48:41Z phoe: that's a direct instance of class T 2020-03-19T18:48:52Z greaser|q quit (Changing host) 2020-03-19T18:48:52Z greaser|q joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:48:56Z greaser|q is now known as GreaseMonkey 2020-03-19T18:49:06Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:49:47Z knicklux joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:56:30Z eMBee joined #lisp 2020-03-19T18:58:09Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-03-19T19:02:02Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-19T19:03:01Z _leb quit 2020-03-19T19:03:19Z efm quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-03-19T19:04:19Z aeth: pjb: standard-object doesn't really fit, either, because most of the advice also applies to structure-objects from structure-classes, not just standard-objects from standard-classes, at least iirc. 2020-03-19T19:05:04Z leb joined #lisp 2020-03-19T19:05:28Z Intensity joined #lisp 2020-03-19T19:06:19Z Lycurgus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T19:06:52Z Bike: also jcowan, you said "CLOS type", but just to be clear, a class doesn't need to support anything in CLOS except being dispatchable (i.e. the ability to distinguish members of the class from non members). the built in classes are usually like this. 2020-03-19T19:07:26Z jcowan nods. 2020-03-19T19:08:46Z aeth: (And it looks like conditions may or may not be standard-objects and are either instances of standard-classes or their own class type) 2020-03-19T19:09:16Z aeth: phoe: that's fun. # 2020-03-19T19:10:05Z aeth: Also (eq (sb-pcl:class-prototype (find-class 't)) (sb-pcl:class-prototype (find-class 't))) => T 2020-03-19T19:10:22Z phoe: aeth: does the standard mandate that (find-class 'condition) returns an actual class though? 2020-03-19T19:10:40Z william1_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T19:11:00Z phoe: the standard seems pretty damn careful to avoid implying anywhere that condition types are actual classes. to me, it implies that a conforming CL implementation can implement conditions without even a system class named CONDITION. 2020-03-19T19:11:13Z Bike: clhs 4.3.7 2020-03-19T19:11:13Z specbot: Integrating Types and Classes: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_cg.htm 2020-03-19T19:11:30Z Bike: Figure 4-8 "Classes that correspond to pre-defined type specifiers" includes the standard condition types. 2020-03-19T19:11:34Z phoe: oh! yes, correct. 2020-03-19T19:12:17Z ecraven joined #lisp 2020-03-19T19:12:50Z phoe: this makes the standard even more bizarre to me 2020-03-19T19:13:40Z phoe: CL-defined condition types have classes, but user-defined condition types... aren't required to? 2020-03-19T19:13:44Z aeth: I'm guessing the standard is ambiguous about whether condition classes are standard-classes (e.g. ECL) or their own class (e.g. SBCL) 2020-03-19T19:14:07Z phoe: No, not really; it could state that condition types are system classes, at which point they can be implemented via built-in classes. 2020-03-19T19:14:55Z phoe: ...define-condition has the option :allocation :class though, which is kinda cheeky now that I think of it 2020-03-19T19:15:24Z Bike: "The metaclass of the class condition is not specified." in 9.1.1 2020-03-19T19:15:47Z Bike: it's dumb, anyway. they should just be classes 2020-03-19T19:16:34Z phoe: so much this 2020-03-19T19:16:53Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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The larger problem is that you don't know what comes from most internal errors. e.g. (destructuring-bind (x) (list 1 2)) 2020-03-19T19:19:09Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-03-19T19:20:22Z aeth: And if your macros (if you have any) aren't full of DESTRUCTURING-BINDs, you're probably not writing them properly, since DEFMACRO's fancy lambda list won't help if there's an unspecified number of something from 0 to n, but a D-B gives you essentially the same API. 2020-03-19T19:20:38Z aeth: So a macro can't portably have the same error on different implementations. 2020-03-19T19:21:36Z Bike: yes, the conditions signaled by standard operators are definitely underspecified. i wouldn't go so far as saying that makes it unusable though. i mean how often do you even want to handle that kind of error? 2020-03-19T19:21:57Z aeth: literally every single macro I write if I could? 2020-03-19T19:22:07Z aeth: (define-condition macro-syntax-error (error) ...) 2020-03-19T19:22:09Z Bike: why? what are you going to do with them? 2020-03-19T19:22:33Z aeth: better error messages? 2020-03-19T19:23:04Z aeth: D-B will catch most macro syntax errors, but it won't let you tell the user what's wrong. 2020-03-19T19:23:33Z phoe: aeth: that's why I hacked around it and wrote my destructuring-bind* 2020-03-19T19:23:42Z jcowan: In R6RS Scheme, all conditions are subclasses of the standard class &condition, and vice versa 2020-03-19T19:24:06Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-03-19T19:24:08Z phoe: jcowan: the last time I checked, same thing goes for all Lisp implementations other than SBCL 2020-03-19T19:24:16Z phoe: and even SBCL has condition classes, it's just that they aren't standard-objects 2020-03-19T19:24:50Z jcowan: however, since R6RS has no support for multiple inheritance, compound conditions are a separate type that is not a subclass of &condition 2020-03-19T19:25:02Z phoe: I checked CCL, ECL, ABCL, CLISP, Clasp, ACL, and LW - (find-class 'condition) is a standard-class 2020-03-19T19:25:16Z jcowan: Thanks! 2020-03-19T19:25:28Z aeth: Unfortunately, my trivial example works well enough in SBCL that you can figure out what's going on, probably, if you got this error: (defmacro foo (things) `(progn ,@(destructuring-bind (x) things (list x)))) (foo 1 2 3) 2020-03-19T19:25:42Z aeth: but it pretty quickly becomes cryptic and contextless 2020-03-19T19:25:57Z jcowan: One of the barriers to accepting R6RS was that it imposed a standard condition hierarchy that often contradicted what existing Scheme had (if anything) 2020-03-19T19:26:46Z william1_ joined #lisp 2020-03-19T19:31:17Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-19T19:35:30Z iAmDecim quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T19:35:40Z cosimone quit (Quit: Terminated!) 2020-03-19T19:38:15Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-03-19T19:39:55Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-19T19:40:58Z loli quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T19:42:19Z orivej quit (Quit: orivej) 2020-03-19T19:43:15Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-03-19T19:43:46Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-19T19:44:54Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2020-03-19T19:47:18Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-19T19:48:34Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-03-19T19:52:18Z loli joined #lisp 2020-03-19T19:54:50Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-19T19:57:48Z dgtlcmo joined #lisp 2020-03-19T19:58:27Z dgtlcmo quit (Client Quit) 2020-03-19T19:58:42Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-03-19T19:58:52Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-03-19T20:05:04Z joels quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T20:07:49Z niez joined #lisp 2020-03-19T20:09:32Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-03-19T20:11:34Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T20:12:06Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-03-19T20:13:11Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-03-19T20:18:34Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-03-19T20:20:20Z pjb: jcowan: well, the CL standard carefuly avoided to impose anything to contradict existing implementations at the time (in most cases). I'm not sure it was a wise decision. On one hand, few lisp implementations that existed at that time still exist now. On the other hand, this makes a standard that is way too under-specified. It can be fun for language-lawyers, but it practice it's not helpful. 2020-03-19T20:24:12Z jcowan nods 2020-03-19T20:24:28Z jcowan: C took the attitude "Code is sacred, implementations are not" and I think that's a good position. 2020-03-19T20:27:19Z jcowan: Unfortunately they also took the position "Code with undefined behavior can break at any time", which is a major source of bitrot in C. 2020-03-19T20:28:35Z prince1 joined #lisp 2020-03-19T20:33:11Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-03-19T20:33:18Z prince1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-19T20:37:02Z jcowan: Admittedly some of the definitions of UB are just laziness on the WG's part. For example, running a program that was compiled from a source code file that did not end in a newline is UB. 2020-03-19T20:37:38Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-03-19T20:38:22Z vanjulio quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-03-19T20:46:29Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-03-19T20:50:35Z Bike: for the next version they should say programs without a newline at the end have to be parsed and compiled as pascal. just to keep everyone on their toes 2020-03-19T20:50:44Z karlosz: fun fact, the fact that sbcl's condition is not a standard-class derives from the fact that ANSI didn't want to disturb spice lisp's condition hierarchy 2020-03-19T20:51:41Z karlosz: cmucl didn't integrate clos into its bootstrap process, and that's why it can't be a standard-class. sbcl preserves that quirk to this day 2020-03-19T20:52:56Z iAmDecim joined #lisp 2020-03-19T20:54:40Z karlosz: i don't think it would be easy to get conditions be standard-classes 2020-03-19T20:56:19Z jebes quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-19T20:56:52Z jackdaniel: talk about favourism :-) 2020-03-19T20:57:23Z dlowe: jcowan: I sense great optimization opportunities with that one. 2020-03-19T20:57:31Z dlowe: "this whole file can't happen so we can optimize it away" 2020-03-19T20:57:55Z jcowan: Oh no, more than that. "This file is no good so we will kill our parent processes up to the login shell." 2020-03-19T20:58:02Z karlosz: well, it may not have all been cmu's fault, but certainly they would've had to do some extra work had standard-class been mandated to be the super class of condition 2020-03-19T20:58:04Z jcowan: Without an error message, of course 2020-03-19T20:59:07Z buffergn0me quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-19T20:59:49Z jcowan: There are 191 UBs in C99, but probably a great many more in ANSI CL 2020-03-19T21:00:08Z jcowan: Oh, here's another win: If an unmatched " or ' appears on a line, UB. 2020-03-19T21:04:17Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T21:05:34Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-03-19T21:06:13Z william1_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-03-19T21:14:15Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T21:17:34Z Bike: CL has uh, schema? like calling a standard function with arguments that don't fit the types 2020-03-19T21:18:19Z oni-on-ion: jcowan, ouch. on the quotes -- is that C99 or ANSI CL ? 2020-03-19T21:18:28Z jcowan: C 2020-03-19T21:18:39Z oni-on-ion: ah=) 2020-03-19T21:19:22Z oni-on-ion: i would be curious to see the UB count for CL; but as for C, a lot of the UB has become Expected B 2020-03-19T21:22:11Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-03-19T21:24:51Z leb quit 2020-03-19T21:32:14Z fivo joined #lisp 2020-03-19T21:32:50Z william1_ joined #lisp 2020-03-19T21:32:57Z asarch: (cpuinfo 0) 2020-03-19T21:34:16Z semz: doesn't CL tie a fair share of UB to the safety level? would be interesting to see how strongly the amount of UB varies between those 2020-03-19T21:34:19Z amerlyq quit (Quit: amerlyq) 2020-03-19T21:34:43Z semz: especially considering the old "(safety 0) is worse than C" saying 2020-03-19T21:34:51Z no-defun-allowed: "Symbolics CADDR Revision 3" 4.2e9 (:cdr-coding :eight-bit-type-tag :two-bit-gc :spectre :meltdown :avx4) 2020-03-19T21:35:42Z oni-on-ion: would be a good task for ml/dl 2020-03-19T21:36:23Z efm joined #lisp 2020-03-19T21:36:32Z oni-on-ion: wat 2020-03-19T21:37:26Z no-defun-allowed: asarch asked for CPU info. 2020-03-19T21:37:42Z Bike: safety isn't all. something as simple as (+ nil) is undefined behavior even at safety 3 2020-03-19T21:37:42Z william1_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2020-03-19T21:38:19Z asarch: Although, more properly, (sb-ext:cpuinfo 0) 2020-03-19T21:38:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-03-19T21:38:40Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-03-19T21:39:27Z aeth: dlowe: I mean, why isn't that a thing yet? Someone should do that