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2019-12-01T00:14:15Z Josh_2: I keep getting the error bad-file-descriptor when calling socket-accept on my listen socket, the fd is -1 for some reason
2019-12-01T00:14:31Z Josh_2: I restarted the entire machine and sbcl
2019-12-01T00:17:59Z aeth: jfrancis: Well, I think you brought up a good point with project managers, but most people do CL on their own time, in which case the problem is motivation, so the order to do things in imo kind of reverses. Instead of building a solid foundation of libraries and then the application, you need to get a MVP of the application/library done as quickly as possible to maintain motivation. At least, imo/ime.
2019-12-01T00:18:22Z aeth: So it doesn't surprise me that people work with an 80% good-enough JSON library instead of writing a perfect fit one, even though 80% good-enough isn't actually good enough.
2019-12-01T00:18:27Z White_Flame: "always have a running version"
2019-12-01T00:20:18Z Josh_2: Okay found the problem
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2019-12-01T01:28:55Z lavaflow: from what I understand common lisp doesn't guarantee tail call optimization in every scenario, but does it in any specific circumstances, like a procedure invoking itself in the tail position?
2019-12-01T01:29:42Z lavaflow: I'm reading land of lisp and some of the examples have procedures invoking themselves in the tail position to loop.  I thought that was a scheme-ism
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2019-12-01T01:33:44Z Xach: lavaflow: it is a scheme-ism and land of lisp has some little odd bits like that
2019-12-01T01:34:05Z Xach: lavaflow: implementations might convert calls like that in some circumstances but nothing is guaranteed by the standard
2019-12-01T01:34:16Z lavaflow: ah okay, good to know
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2019-12-01T01:38:21Z PuercoPope: no-defun-allowed: an alternative to modifying the sources, if you use SBCL, is to restrict the compiler policy. ie. (restrict-compiler-policy 'safety 1)
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2019-12-01T04:31:18Z vsync: huh... why is it allowed to have a zero-dimensional array? or more properly, why does a zero-dimensional array have an element?
2019-12-01T04:31:44Z pjb: vsync: a 0-dim array doesn
2019-12-01T04:31:54Z pjb: 't HAVE an element, in a way, it IS an element.
2019-12-01T04:32:03Z aeth: vsync: it's kind of the array equivalent of a point
2019-12-01T04:32:16Z vsync: what use would such a thing have?
2019-12-01T04:32:24Z vsync: and why wouldn't it be an array that isn't allowed to hold anything?
2019-12-01T04:32:37Z aeth: vsync: (make-array '() :element-type 'double-float :initial-element 4d0) ; now you have a box
2019-12-01T04:32:37Z pjb: vsync: to represent scalars in a package that deals with arrays of all dimensions.
2019-12-01T04:33:15Z no-defun-allowed: The size of an array is the product of its dimensions, i.e (apply #'* (array-dimensions <the array>)).
2019-12-01T04:33:16Z aeth: vsync: a 0D array of a double-float or (unsigned-byte 64) or (signed-byte 64) in 64-bit implementations that support such optimizations is essentially micromanaging your own box instead of automatically heap-allocating that number
2019-12-01T04:33:35Z no-defun-allowed: (*) [nullary multiplication] is 1.
2019-12-01T04:33:39Z pjb: Also, such an array still has attributes, sut as the element-type!
2019-12-01T04:33:58Z pjb: So it's a way to bring the value along with some (super-)type.
2019-12-01T04:34:26Z vsync: huh
2019-12-01T04:34:37Z vsync: pjb: more on this last?
2019-12-01T04:34:59Z aeth: vsync: technically speaking if you're writing hyper-optimized numerical code it's more efficient to pass in a 0D double float array containing an element and then optionally perhaps setting that with the new result rather than actually passing in a heap-boxed double float. Do you need to do this? Probably not. Does a library you use that wants to compete with C/C++/Fortran need to do this? Maybe.
2019-12-01T04:35:15Z pjb: (mapcar 'array-element-type (list  (make-array '() :element-type 'double-float :initial-element 4d0) (make-array '() :element-type 'number :initial-element 4d0))) #| --> (double-float t) |#
2019-12-01T04:35:28Z aeth: vsync: of course, a length 1 array does pretty much exactly the same thing
2019-12-01T04:35:37Z pjb: Of course, you get the upgraded element type, which may not be too useful, but still…
2019-12-01T04:35:55Z aeth: The difference between a length-1 array and a length-() array is (aref foo 0) vs. (aref foo)
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2019-12-01T05:26:46Z vsync: is there an equivalent of CONSTANTLY but for functions/forms rather than values?
2019-12-01T05:29:21Z vsync: or, more generally, a sort of inverse-curry?
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2019-12-01T05:48:38Z vsync: haha, turned out I could just do what I wanted with (map-into (make-array N) #'WHATEVER)
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2019-12-01T07:23:47Z jackdaniel: alexandria has curry and rcurry
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2019-12-01T07:41:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-01T07:55:29Z fe[nl]ix: hi beach
2019-12-01T07:56:22Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Hey.  Are you going to ELS2020?
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2019-12-01T07:59:18Z fe[nl]ix: yes, I'll go to Zurich one week earlier to also help with organizing
2019-12-01T07:59:30Z beach: Excellent!
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2019-12-01T09:36:35Z smokeink: http://pastecode.ru/d2d04e/   failed AVER: (SB-C::LEAF-HAS-SOURCE-NAME-P SB-C::LEAF) This is probably a bug in SBCL (1.5.9) itself.
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2019-12-01T09:42:24Z flip214: UIOP has WITH-TEMPORARY-FILE -- is there some library that has WITH-TEMPORARY-DIRECTORY?
2019-12-01T09:43:09Z flip214: OSICAT-POSIX:MKDTEMP looks like a solution
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2019-12-01T09:53:28Z flip214: I found QL-IMPL-UTIL:DELETE-DIRECTORY-TREE. Is there some other function in a library that's very likely to be used already?
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2019-12-01T09:59:58Z phoe: flip214: the best I've found is (uiop:temporary-directory) that returns the base temporary directory to you
2019-12-01T10:00:20Z phoe: you can likely make directories in there yourself and implement your own with-temporary-directory macro on top of that
2019-12-01T10:00:26Z phoe: ...if you feel like reimplementing, that is
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2019-12-01T10:31:48Z flip214: phoe: osicat also has a *temporary-directory*
2019-12-01T10:31:55Z flip214: and yes, I already have such a macro
2019-12-01T10:32:02Z flip214: isn't quite rocket-science, after all ;)
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2019-12-01T11:08:37Z Xach: Arrgh. My Quicklisp build computer is now crashing every few days. Time to troubleshoot instead of just restarting it.
2019-12-01T11:11:55Z edgar-rft: Quicklisp has ruined your computer.
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2019-12-01T11:13:21Z Xach: it seems so
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2019-12-01T11:19:50Z phoe: crashing, how?
2019-12-01T11:24:57Z Xach: phoe: the machine stops responding to network traffic and cannot be shut down with the hardware acpi shutdown. it has to be force-shutdown and restarted.
2019-12-01T11:25:13Z Xach: i haven't attached a screen and keyboard to see if there's any useful console info yet.
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2019-12-01T11:27:40Z phoe: Xach: that sounds like the thing that's required. This smells of kernel panic or another hardware-induced hang.
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2019-12-01T11:27:48Z phoe: s/another/some/
2019-12-01T11:28:52Z Xach: very irritating.
2019-12-01T11:29:02Z Xach: i want my hardware to be free of flaws, just like my software
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2019-12-01T11:30:53Z phoe: this might already be getting offtopic, but is your CPU Intel-made? /s
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2019-12-01T11:33:11Z edgar-rft: Xach: please tell us when we need to fundraise a new computer for you
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2019-12-01T11:36:50Z Xach: I feel like I need to set things up on The Cloud instead of buying hardware to tinker with any more
2019-12-01T11:37:07Z Xach: As much as I enjoy owning and controlling the Quicklisp hardware
2019-12-01T11:37:43Z flip214: Xach: a serial console might be easier than keyboard+screen
2019-12-01T11:38:34Z Xach: flip214: possibly, though i have a keyboard and screen and do not have a serial console.
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2019-12-01T11:41:53Z phoe: Xach: the recent discussions have made me think of setting up some sort of semi-public CI for Common Lisp projects, so one can get their code to build and run its tests on the major operating systems and a series of available implementations.
2019-12-01T11:42:51Z phoe: It would require a considerable amount of hacking, though, plus hardware expenses and licenses for the proprietary operating systems.
2019-12-01T11:43:32Z phoe: And either buying some Apple hardware or deciding to hackintosh in spite of Apple's licenses.
2019-12-01T11:44:13Z phoe: Summing all of that up, I think it would be a substantial investment to set up and then to get someone to maintain the hell out of this while accepting more and more projects to be built there.
2019-12-01T11:44:42Z phoe: Maybe the clnet foundation would be willing to help with that. I don't know, I haven't asked anyone or even shared that full thought with anyone before.
2019-12-01T11:46:01Z galdor: technically you already have multiple CI systems, e.g. Github Actions or CircleCI, depending on what you need
2019-12-01T11:46:35Z galdor: it's really easy to write CircleCI orbs to support multiple CL implementations in an easy way
2019-12-01T11:46:58Z galdor: sourcehut has a lot of potential too
2019-12-01T11:47:06Z phoe: correct, one other way would be to depend on another existing CI service for each project
2019-12-01T11:47:22Z phoe: Travis, CircleCI, sr.ht or anything else
2019-12-01T11:48:02Z galdor: commercial CL vendor could decide to support opensource by providing some kind of special CircleCI account for example, or a collaboration with Drew DeVault for sourcehut
2019-12-01T11:48:21Z phoe: I've already seen Travis configs that allow one to run tests against multiple CL implementations, too
2019-12-01T11:49:20Z galdor: personnally I do not care too much about CI, I can already do that easily, I'm more concerned by the absence of a rebar3-like tool to manage dependency source/versioning on a per-project basis
2019-12-01T11:50:18Z galdor: I'd love to include some non-critical CL tools at work, but the whole "go install quicklisp and run commands in a CL repl" is never going to fly
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2019-12-01T12:11:53Z Xach: galdor: qlot does something like that (i don't know what rebar3 is)
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2019-12-01T12:12:51Z phoe: Xach: rebar3 is a module manager for erlang and other BEAM-based languages like elixir and LFE
2019-12-01T12:13:10Z phoe: and a version manager and a deployment utility at that
2019-12-01T12:13:50Z Xach: ok
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2019-12-01T12:14:58Z flip214: Xach: "easier" as in "only one cable required", but if there's none available, the point is moot
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2019-12-01T13:58:15Z p_l: Sourceforge in its heyday had a fleet of machines to make testing across different arches easier
2019-12-01T13:59:04Z p_l: Xach: Do you have your setup documented somewhere?
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2019-12-01T14:02:23Z easye: Neil Lindquist has made a good start to abstracting a generic need to test Lisp on a CI <https://github.com/neil-lindquist/ci-utils/>.  I haven't evaluated this yet, but it looks promising.
2019-12-01T14:03:43Z easye: The CLF has long had the intention to "refactor" a given developer's common needs into something reusable and available under gitlab.common-lisp.net
2019-12-01T14:04:38Z easye: From ambiently following phoe's forays on the CI available from gitlab.common-lisp.net in the past week or so, I gather there is a fair amount of work to do.
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2019-12-01T14:05:34Z phoe: easye: we'd basically need Windows/Linux/macOS VMs. Given that CI can run foreign code, we'd need some way do dispose of these VMs and create them on the fly - preferably via snapshotted VM states or something similar.
2019-12-01T14:05:57Z phoe: And that already starts being resource-hungry.
2019-12-01T14:07:41Z easye: One idea that the CLF tossed around was getting donations from commercial entities in the Common Lisp space to fund such a generalized CL CI by enticing them with versions that would easily allow a developer to test on a given commercial implementation as well.
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2019-12-01T14:11:09Z easye: >  we'd basically need Windows/Linux/macOS VMs : I'll bring this up at the monthly CLF meeting this Wednesday to see how we could possibly get such resources abundantly avaialable.  One idea might be to approach AWS/Azure/GOOG with a request for donating such services.
2019-12-01T14:11:36Z easye: "donating" in return for publicity.
2019-12-01T14:14:17Z boeg: Anyone here use sly for common lisp in emacs? How do I quit sly without manually killing the buffers? Like a quit command that brings things down and removes buffers and so on
2019-12-01T14:15:21Z beach: I don't know sly, but with SLIME it is ",quit".
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2019-12-01T14:17:40Z boeg: beach: when I type , it shows a "command" with commands available like disconnect and clear, no quit though. Does ",quit" also clean up buffers or just close connections?
2019-12-01T14:18:06Z boeg: it shows it down in the line in the bottom of emacs, i forgot what its called
2019-12-01T14:18:19Z beach: It doesn't close buffers containing source code.
2019-12-01T14:18:50Z boeg: no, i mean the sly buffers - like the repl, buffer with previous errors and so on
2019-12-01T14:19:03Z beach: It does close the REPL buffer.
2019-12-01T14:19:30Z beach: I mean, it removes it.
2019-12-01T14:20:02Z phoe: easye: that sounds good. Please do. I could try setting these up in some way.
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2019-12-01T14:20:20Z boeg: hmm, alright. I've tried the sayoonara command, the disconnect-all command and they just seems to close connectins to the underlying sbcl, but does clean up the compilation buffer and repl and so on
2019-12-01T14:20:23Z easye: phoe: cool, I'll let you know more when I do.
2019-12-01T14:22:06Z phoe: easye: note that this would allow to have a kinda-centralized CI for CL projects - Quicklisp could use it during its build process to build and run tests on multiple OSes/implementations, for example.
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2019-12-01T14:23:21Z easye: Yeah, ideally we could merge the cl-test-grid style reports on top.
2019-12-01T14:23:59Z phoe: yesssssss. That would be ideal.
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2019-12-01T14:25:29Z boeg: beach: seems its working as intended: https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/issues/190
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2019-12-01T14:26:54Z beach: I see.
2019-12-01T14:26:58Z boeg: beach: thank you for your time
2019-12-01T14:27:18Z beach: Sure.  Sorry I couldn't be of much help.
2019-12-01T14:27:24Z boeg: no problem :)
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2019-12-01T15:53:10Z ebrasca: What is CLF?
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2019-12-01T15:53:36Z flip214: ebrasca: the common lisp foundation
2019-12-01T15:53:38Z MichaelRaskin: Common Lisp Foundation
2019-12-01T15:54:16Z flip214: https://cl-foundation.org/
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2019-12-01T16:06:26Z ebrasca: What is this CLD for?
2019-12-01T16:09:54Z beach: ebrasca: It says so on the web page.
2019-12-01T16:12:30Z ebrasca: beach: I have read it. Can they be trusted?
2019-12-01T16:12:42Z beach: Definitely.
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2019-12-01T17:13:26Z Josh_2: Can I convert an instance of a classes superclass into that class? I have a superclass called packet, can I instantiate that and then later convert it into an instance of class kill-packet which inherits from packet?
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2019-12-01T17:18:36Z phoe: Josh_2: smells like CHANGE-CLASS
2019-12-01T17:18:58Z Josh_2: Well I suppose that'll be it then
2019-12-01T17:21:42Z Josh_2: Works perfectly. Thanks phoe :)
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2019-12-01T17:27:21Z phoe: don't abuse it
2019-12-01T17:27:59Z phoe: it's a powerful tool
2019-12-01T17:28:32Z phoe: when you create any Lisp object, usually its type stays the same throughout its whole lifetime
2019-12-01T17:28:43Z phoe: and CHANGE-CLASS is a way to change this state of matters
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2019-12-01T17:37:58Z Shinmera: abuse how
2019-12-01T17:39:33Z phoe: (defvar *foo* (make-instance 'foo)) (assert (typep foo *foo*)) (change-class *foo* 'bar)
2019-12-01T17:39:50Z Shinmera: Uh, sure, but how is that abuse?
2019-12-01T17:39:51Z phoe: where BAR is not FOO
2019-12-01T17:40:35Z Shinmera: Obviously if you change instances you do not control that's bad, but that goes for changing slot values too, not just changing class.
2019-12-01T17:40:46Z phoe: basically, this is a way to defeat type safety in Lisp, since an object can stop being of a particular type because you executed some code on it
2019-12-01T17:40:52Z phoe: yes, correct
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2019-12-01T18:01:53Z _death: (let ((x 5)) (assert (> x 3)) (setf x -123))
2019-12-01T18:02:24Z phoe: _death: I meant the actual object, not a variable
2019-12-01T18:02:41Z phoe: or a variable binding
2019-12-01T18:03:13Z _death: the issue with change-class is that it can be slow, and sometimes it is a sign of unoptimal design.. it may also have issues with multithreading
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2019-12-01T18:08:07Z Shinmera: any object change will have multithreading problems.
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2019-12-01T18:10:32Z _death: yeah, but there's more familiarity with using locks or atomics when it comes to modifying slots than when it comes to change-class..
2019-12-01T18:11:52Z jeosol: Good morning
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2019-12-01T18:15:14Z _death: when you need change-class, however, it's really great that it's there :)
2019-12-01T18:15:16Z jeosol: I have a question related to deployment and commercialization of lisp apps,  e.g., protecting exe (?), do it as API calls. Or it's a lot of work.
2019-12-01T18:17:00Z jeosol: To give an example, imagine, applications that people spend time to assemble, and that requires deep domain expertise, and I want to package them as exes (simplest option) or expose some API for it
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2019-12-01T18:19:17Z mister_m: does common lisp have a flatMap analog?
2019-12-01T18:19:53Z phoe: mister_m: give an example?
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2019-12-01T18:20:43Z phoe: you have an array of some stuff and you want to apply a function on each element and get a new array?
2019-12-01T18:20:48Z phoe: if yes then
2019-12-01T18:20:49Z phoe: clhs map
2019-12-01T18:20:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map.htm
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2019-12-01T18:22:03Z _death: there's mapcan/alexandria:mappend
2019-12-01T18:26:26Z Josh_2: there is map-into?
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2019-12-01T18:26:56Z phoe: MAP-INTO mutates its argument
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2019-12-01T18:29:43Z Josh_2: yes you pass an empty array the same length as the sequences you pass
2019-12-01T18:31:09Z mister_m: for context I have a list of directories I want to "map" to a list of files in those directories, then just flatten the nested list. I _think_ I can do that by reducing with #'append.
2019-12-01T18:32:50Z phoe: alexandria:mappend would be the way to go
2019-12-01T18:33:03Z phoe: you don't need to reduce if each directory can be processed separately
2019-12-01T18:33:35Z phoe: but if the created lists are fresh, you should be able to use mapcan
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2019-12-01T20:38:40Z slyrus__: happy new month everyone
2019-12-01T20:39:06Z slyrus__: <funny beginning of the month debugging story follows...>
2019-12-01T20:39:19Z slyrus__: anyone ever have code that stopped working on December 1st?
2019-12-01T20:40:04Z slyrus__: all of sudden some code that used to work started throwing an error about 12 being an invalid index for a (SIMPLE-VECTOR 12). I suppose I should have guessed what was going on right away.
2019-12-01T20:40:05Z _death: is it about 1-based vs. 0-based?
2019-12-01T20:40:12Z slyrus__: Heh.
2019-12-01T20:40:32Z slyrus__: Turns out decoded time months are 1-based. Oops.
2019-12-01T20:40:47Z _death: we should return to old times, where names meant something and december was the tenth month
2019-12-01T20:41:01Z slyrus__: So (elt 9 ...)?
2019-12-01T20:41:45Z _death: your error would be postponed to february :)
2019-12-01T20:45:02Z _death: was the workaround to increase vector size by 1? or to change indices?.. if the former, hope there's no modular arithmetic
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2019-12-01T20:49:25Z slyrus__: subtract one from the month when indexing the array of month names
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2019-12-01T20:53:34Z _death: hmm, so the month name was wrong all this time?
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2019-12-01T20:55:12Z vsync: slyrus__: hehehheh
2019-12-01T20:55:53Z vsync: I wish there was an easy way built-in to have arrays with custom indexing
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2019-12-01T20:58:18Z _death: that would drive people insane :)
2019-12-01T20:59:04Z vsync: wow, just realized you're not even allowed to have a negative displaced-index-offset
2019-12-01T20:59:47Z vsync: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dftJrxMP8L0
2019-12-01T21:01:01Z slyrus__: _death: yeah, that's what I get for using some random library on github :)
2019-12-01T21:02:23Z vsync: imagine if in our calendaring for some reason we kept the numbers associated with names like "tenth month" and indexed the rest chronologically
2019-12-01T21:03:02Z vsync: so one would actually write "2019-10-01" for today; july and august would end up as 11 and 12
2019-12-01T21:03:32Z vsync: it technically makes perfect sense
2019-12-01T21:04:07Z _death: sense? it's just the long painful history of time
2019-12-01T21:05:51Z Bike: "why isn't october the eighth month? i wish the guy who made it the tenth got stabbed" "Good news!"
2019-12-01T21:06:52Z pjb: slyrus__: In Pascal, you would define an enum january .. december, and use it to index the array. In CL, you could use keywrods and a hash-table…
2019-12-01T21:08:43Z pjb: Bike: because the guy who named it was a Roman, and Romans started they year in March. But then Christians came and started it in January.
2019-12-01T21:08:47Z nirved: for something small alist might be better than hash-table
2019-12-01T21:09:35Z pjb: Bike: become world dictator, and set the start of the year to your birth month for fun!
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2019-12-01T21:15:43Z vsync: Bike: lol
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2019-12-01T21:19:05Z vsync: stupid date/array tricks: (let ((year (make-array '(52 7) :initial-element nil))) (dotimes (month 12 year) (map-into (make-array 30 :displaced-to year :displaced-index-offset (* month 30)) (constantly (elt #(jan feb mar apr may jun jul aug sep oct nov dec) month)))))
2019-12-01T21:19:48Z vsync: wasn't there a proposal to do that and have a big festival with those extra days?
2019-12-01T21:20:06Z vsync: "don't you hate that there are so many calendar systems?  good news, everyone!"
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2019-12-01T21:28:36Z _death: the whole purpose of moving the leap day around was so that people celebrate less and work more.. and your calendar adds FOUR nil days
2019-12-01T21:29:13Z _death: but it would make for a simpler doomsday rule..
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2019-12-01T21:34:04Z aeth: Shinmera, _death: The problem with change-class here is that the one reference where you're changing the class might not be the only reference. Especially not related to _death's example where you're setf'ing x, not changing the value of 5 into -123. It'd be more like (setf (aref x) -123) there.
2019-12-01T21:35:19Z _death: aeth: change-class preserves identity
2019-12-01T21:35:44Z aeth: In particular, you could have objects that use the MOP to enforce constraints about the information that can be stored in the object. Obviously, the compiler won't trust that because of things like change-class, but the user might.
2019-12-01T21:36:10Z aeth: Imagine having a class that restricts x to plusp via a check on all sets to the slot, which is afaik bulletproof except for change-class.
2019-12-01T21:37:01Z aeth: (Maybe it can also be bypassed by the debugger, not sure.)
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2019-12-01T21:37:56Z _death: I'm not sure I understand the scenario you're describing..
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2019-12-01T21:55:24Z aeth: _death: You can create a metaclass which enforces an ASSERT on a slot SETF based on some constraint defined in the DEFCLASS. e.g. https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/d5771d8b78973e44aa98af8916dbed6fb49f5588/util/metaobject.lisp
2019-12-01T21:56:13Z _death: ok, but you change-class to a different class..
2019-12-01T21:56:17Z aeth: I did this because more than half of my docstrings for slots were basically expressable as types, although since that apparently requires ASSERT instead of CHECK-TYPE (since the type isn't known at compile time) you could assert basically anything.
2019-12-01T21:57:06Z aeth: _death: Right. So let's say you enforce a PLUSP on slot x via the MOP. That enforcement can be completely broken by CHANGE-CLASS afaik. In another thread, too.
2019-12-01T21:57:50Z _death: you mean converting a non-checked object to a checked object?
2019-12-01T21:58:21Z _death: clhs update-instance-for-different-class
2019-12-01T21:58:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_update.htm
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2019-12-01T22:20:11Z _death: but there is an issue.. if update-instance-for-different-class signals an error, what is the state of the object? it's already of the target class, and the discarded slots are nowhere to be found.. maybe a change-class wrapper would do.. this suggests a more elaborate protocol
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2019-12-01T22:28:19Z Xach: cool, https://github.com/mare5x/LispQR does something I was thinking of making myself just a few days ago
2019-12-01T22:32:31Z Xach: it has saved me many days of failing to make it, probably!
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2019-12-01T22:34:00Z _death: cool.. does the author know how to submit to quicklisp?
2019-12-01T22:36:40Z _death: maybe it's not ready for prime-time yet.. encode->image is not exported
2019-12-01T22:36:40Z Xach: I don't know. There's no license info in the source that I can find.
2019-12-01T22:38:25Z Xach: I'd like to modify it to just return the 2d bitmap so I can draw it however I please, but that will have to wait for license info
2019-12-01T22:38:56Z _death: good idea
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2019-12-01T22:50:04Z _death: oh well, tried to read the QR code with google goggles, but apparently they disabled it with only a link to google lens.. the store page for it tells me it's not compatible with my device.. hooray.  but at least I came up with a new Bruce Schneier fact: Bruce Schneier can not only decode QR codes with his eyes, but also encode them
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2019-12-01T23:12:49Z Xach: my test code worked for me on my phone
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2019-12-01T23:22:00Z p_l: some phones have built-in readers
2019-12-01T23:22:17Z Xach: iphone among them
2019-12-01T23:22:55Z p_l: dunno, I keep away from that brand unless forced by work
2019-12-01T23:23:23Z p_l looks at ~$3100 used MBP he was forced to buy recently :|
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2019-12-01T23:28:26Z akoana: Xach: seems a license (MIT) has just been added: https://github.com/mare5x/LispQR/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
2019-12-01T23:29:12Z Xach: akoana: fantastic
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2019-12-01T23:37:12Z vsync: is there a good acronym for "concatenate"?
2019-12-01T23:38:21Z grewal_: cat?
2019-12-01T23:38:46Z ebrasca: vsync: concat?
2019-12-01T23:38:58Z ebrasca: Like from concat-symbols
2019-12-01T23:39:19Z antoszka: cnctnt
2019-12-01T23:39:30Z antoszka: rplacd-style
2019-12-01T23:39:41Z antoszka: :)
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2019-12-01T23:42:34Z ebrasca: Why cl don't have consistent naming?
2019-12-01T23:43:50Z LdBeth: It depends on what is the criteria for consistent
2019-12-01T23:44:05Z fengshaun: I remember there was something like `let/let*` but for functions
2019-12-01T23:44:13Z mfiano: flet/labels
2019-12-01T23:44:16Z fengshaun: I don't remember the name
2019-12-01T23:44:17Z LdBeth: flet
2019-12-01T23:44:19Z fengshaun: nice, thanks
2019-12-01T23:44:30Z mfiano: labels is a bit different than let* though...not an complete parallel
2019-12-01T23:44:43Z mfiano: such as, earlier labels can call later ones
2019-12-01T23:44:48Z no-defun-allowed: It is foremost a "common" language that's made of several somewhat incompatible Maclisp dialects (and Scheme if you check the CLTL1 cover).
2019-12-01T23:45:02Z aeth: ebrasca: CL conventions are mostly consistent, but it has to maintain almost complete compatibility with legacy Lisp, which can date to the 1960s/1970s.
2019-12-01T23:45:10Z fengshaun: mfiano, labels binds can call earlier binds, right?
2019-12-01T23:45:12Z fengshaun: I should just test it
2019-12-01T23:45:14Z fengshaun: thanks
2019-12-01T23:45:17Z mfiano: yes
2019-12-01T23:45:49Z aeth: ebrasca: Some of the older functions like rplacd were probably from systems with character limits
2019-12-01T23:46:05Z aeth: You see this a lot more in C
2019-12-01T23:47:03Z LdBeth: Probably not C but APL
2019-12-01T23:47:07Z LdBeth: IBM 360 stuff
2019-12-01T23:47:29Z ebrasca: Maybe it is time to make new common lisp. (NCL)
2019-12-01T23:47:31Z nirved: vsync: conc
2019-12-01T23:48:12Z LdBeth: But what can be the benefit by renaming a few functions
2019-12-01T23:48:40Z aeth: ebrasca: Scheme does update some of the naming, e.g. set-cdr! instead of rplacd. It goes too far, though, and in some cases it's actually a disadvantage, because it replaced MAPCAR with map, leaving map as a list-specific procedure, unlike CL's MAP function because CL had the name available.
2019-12-01T23:49:33Z ebrasca: LdBeth: It is going to have more consistent naming.
2019-12-01T23:49:42Z aeth: LdBeth: Function argument order is arguably more important to be consistent because it makes things more easily guessable. e.g. for accessing an item, you need to put the index/key/etc. second so you can have AREF's arbitrary indicies, e.g. (aref foo) (aref foo 1) (aref foo 1 2) ...
2019-12-01T23:49:48Z ebrasca: I think consistent is important.
2019-12-01T23:49:57Z aeth: LdBeth: All new functions are in AREF's order, but a lot of the old ones aren't, like NTH
2019-12-01T23:49:58Z pfdietz: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." -- Emerson
2019-12-01T23:50:27Z LdBeth: Well the better thing is use the definition as the function name
2019-12-01T23:50:52Z nirved: CL has just the right consistency
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2019-12-01T23:51:16Z LdBeth: Which can only be practically done in a very terse language though
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2019-12-01T23:52:03Z ebrasca: pi is constant but it is not +pi+
2019-12-01T23:52:27Z aeth: LdBeth: I like that CL is the opposite of terseness. Very little of the naming changes made in Clojure actually improve things. I mean, sure, certain things like aref and + are good as short names, but most things don't have to be that short. If DEFUN was DEFINE-FUNCTION, things wouldn't be that bad.
2019-12-01T23:53:40Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: I don't think APROPOS would work so well with shortened names.
2019-12-01T23:53:52Z aeth: What's good about traditional Lisps including CL and Scheme is that they're concise at a syntactic token level but not at an absolute character level. So the names tend to be longer and meaningful, but replace foo-bar-baz with µ or whatever and you can see just how concise Lisps really are.
2019-12-01T23:54:02Z aeth: But don't actually use µ in your code.
2019-12-01T23:54:04Z LdBeth: Just get cozy with Hungarian notation :)
2019-12-01T23:54:12Z no-defun-allowed defenestrates LdBeth 
2019-12-01T23:54:23Z Josh_2: I honestly like the long names, and I like giving my functions and my variables descriptive names
2019-12-01T23:55:08Z aeth: Names should only be short if they're frequently used and intended to be used "inline", like AREF and +. So vec+ is probably better than vector-add, but for the most part, your names should be pretty long.
2019-12-01T23:55:25Z no-defun-allowed: I didn't choose the update-system-for-new-interesting-object-predicate life, the update-system-for-new-interesting-object-predicate life chose me.
2019-12-01T23:55:34Z Josh_2: ^ this exactly :D
2019-12-01T23:55:37Z aeth: hmm, I described that poorly, perhaps I should say "in one line"
2019-12-01T23:55:55Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: at least that isn't in CamelCase
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2019-12-01T23:56:43Z LdBeth: Unfortunately I see why people get used to x y z I j k a b c
2019-12-01T23:56:57Z fengshaun: where does one get a human-readable overview of all `loop` keywords and how they fit together?
2019-12-01T23:57:07Z fengshaun: it looks like an untamable beast
2019-12-01T23:57:32Z aeth: LdBeth: The only reason you should use single character names (except perhaps i, j, k, ..., for iterating) is if you're doing mathematics/physics and that's the most clear name for the variable you're using. It's kind of unfortunate that "t" is taken since it shows up all of the time.
2019-12-01T23:57:40Z aeth: I often use "u" or "t*" instead of "t" there.
2019-12-01T23:57:41Z LdBeth: Sometimes they just give up spend brain juice on inventing meaningful names
2019-12-01T23:58:24Z nirved: recently someone was using := and :+ for setf and incf, but I find it slower to type
2019-12-01T23:58:38Z ebrasca: aeth: t for time
2019-12-01T23:59:18Z aeth: ebrasca: Eh, talk to a computer scientist or a physics and they might say "t for time" is accurate. Talk to a mathematician working with the same differential equations sort of stuff and they will tell you that "t" absolutely is just a meaningless character and not necessarily "time"
2019-12-01T23:59:25Z aeth: s/a physics/a physicist/
2019-12-01T23:59:44Z LdBeth: nirved: that’s because : needs a shift key press, assuming you are using US keyboard layout
2019-12-01T23:59:54Z aeth: I do sometimes substitute in "time", of course, but for the most general stuff like an RK4 implementation, "t" is absolutely not necessarily just time.
2019-12-01T23:59:58Z aeth: Or e.g. LERP
2019-12-02T00:00:14Z aeth: RK4, in case you're wondering... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runge%E2%80%93Kutta_methods#The_Runge%E2%80%93Kutta_method
2019-12-02T00:00:23Z no-defun-allowed: fengshaun: The Land of Lisp book has a "periodic table" of LOOP clauses.
2019-12-02T00:00:38Z Josh_2: no-defun-allowed: is that online?
2019-12-02T00:00:46Z Josh_2: I have the physical copy buuuut ya know, easier online
2019-12-02T00:00:56Z fengshaun: thahnks
2019-12-02T00:01:03Z no-defun-allowed: No, sadly.
2019-12-02T00:01:39Z aeth: ebrasca: I haven't written the backend to a machine learning system, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the algorithms there deal with "t" in equations in a non-time manner.
2019-12-02T00:01:39Z no-defun-allowed: Though I don't find the CLHS syntax description unreadable.
2019-12-02T00:02:09Z aeth: The most straightforward application of course does use time as "t"
2019-12-02T00:02:18Z LdBeth: BNF is quite reasonable too read
2019-12-02T00:02:36Z LdBeth: dv/dt
2019-12-02T00:02:38Z aeth: any syntax is reasonable once you're used to it
2019-12-02T00:02:38Z fengshaun: no-defun-allowed, not *unreadable* per se, just takes time to put together all the bits
2019-12-02T00:03:02Z fengshaun: I thought I'd ask before trying to make my own graph of loop syntax
2019-12-02T00:03:16Z ebrasca: aeth: It is easy to use t as time. Yes , any leter is equal in mathematics.
2019-12-02T00:03:24Z aeth: LdBeth: Yes, dv/dt, but is that change in velocity w.r.t. time in physics or is that the vector v (probably the second vector in your equations, with u being the first) in some arbitrary differential equation that could be applied to any domain where diff. eq. makes sense?
2019-12-02T00:03:54Z phoe: vsync: uiop:strcat
2019-12-02T00:04:10Z aeth: LdBeth: Perhaps "velocity" and "time" are good substitutions for "v" and "t", but perhaps "v" and "t" are the most straightforward variables here, in which case you have to replace "t" with "u" or "t*". If vectors, then "u" is probably taken, so you'd have to do "t*"
2019-12-02T00:04:36Z LdBeth: aeth: the first thing I came up in mind is the former “velocity” “time”
2019-12-02T00:05:15Z aeth: LdBeth: Right, but that's just the application of physics, which might not be what you're doing with your numerical code... and if it's a library, you have to assume that someone will have some exotic application, too.
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2019-12-02T00:05:30Z mister_m: If i have two classes A, and B - and B is a subtype of A - and they also both define intitialize-instance :after methods - if I thenperform a make-instance on the subclass B, will the initialize-instance method of the parent type A also be executed?
2019-12-02T00:05:47Z aeth: LdBeth: Although, really, you can just see "time" as a useful fiction even if it has nothing to do with time. I think some people interpret "t" that way.
2019-12-02T00:06:07Z aeth: Probably a good way to get a flamewar in a bug tracker, though.
2019-12-02T00:06:46Z ebrasca: aeth: For you, can "t" be terraforming ?
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2019-12-02T00:07:36Z ebrasca: aeth: Thank you1
2019-12-02T00:07:44Z LdBeth: mister_m: yes, and beach mentioned there’s something wrong with your code design if you intends to get rid of the :after method of class A
2019-12-02T00:08:03Z aeth: ebrasca: No, I was talking specifically about calculus, especially differential equations. There are quite a few equations of t, and "t" is just afaik a variable that you use to step through things in your system, at least when viewed as numerical computations.
2019-12-02T00:08:11Z aeth: Which could be time.
2019-12-02T00:08:36Z aeth: ebrasca: Interestingly, Wikipedia says "time dependence of a point in geometrical space" for "dynamical system" so it sort of disagrees with me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamical_system
2019-12-02T00:08:56Z mister_m: LdBeth: in this case I have a general bit of initialization that happens with the superclass A, and some more specialized initialization with B. Shouldn't really change I don't think
2019-12-02T00:09:49Z aeth: I wouldn't be surprised if t's use in physics and differential equations is the main reason why Scheme went with #t instead of CL's T
2019-12-02T00:10:31Z LdBeth: Good to hear that mister_m
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2019-12-02T00:54:04Z dlowe: CL could have gone with something crazy like CL:TRUE
2019-12-02T00:54:49Z dlowe: Scheme just didn't like generalized booleans
2019-12-02T00:55:28Z aeth: dlowe: The main disadvantage with true is that you have "true" and "false" and they're different lengths, but it's not like CL even has an f. Nope, it's just t and nil.
2019-12-02T00:57:03Z aeth: (The length issue can impact a visual glance of certain things)
2019-12-02T00:57:12Z aeth: (Or column alignment)
2019-12-02T00:57:35Z White_Flame: CL:TRUTHY and CL:FALSY
2019-12-02T00:58:10Z aeth: dlowe: I will probably use "true" and "false" in my SXP file format because dealing with t/nil vs. #t/#f/() is a mess and those are just the two languages where it's the most trivial to implement an SXP reader
2019-12-02T00:58:54Z aeth: No ()s at all. All lists will require a first element. That kills an ambiguity issue with e.g. using lists like JSON's [] and plists like JSON's {}
2019-12-02T00:58:55Z White_Flame: and then there's true/false/null/undefined, and zero vs non-zero, etc across other languages
2019-12-02T01:00:09Z aeth: I like how CL uses nil as false and as null, effectively meaning that there *is* no null, since it's more of a false than a null.
2019-12-02T01:00:28Z aeth: Using it as the empty list, too, can cause some ambiguity issues when serializing to/from a text-based format, though.
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2019-12-02T01:01:20Z aeth: Your naive s-expression writer probably won't know when to print nil as () and as NIL and will probably err on the side of too many NILs
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2019-12-02T01:01:32Z Xach: there are so many new advent of code lisp repos on github today.
2019-12-02T01:03:48Z aeth: Too bad Advent of Code dropped at the wrong time for me. Well, I mean, it's not like it was going to appear at some other time.
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2019-12-02T01:04:12Z aeth: I think I'm going to take a CL break for the next 7-10 days.
2019-12-02T01:04:50Z aeth: I can tell when I'm too exhausted to have time for CL when most of my comments are things like comments and docstrings instead of substance. (It's still pretty useful to document code, of course.)
2019-12-02T01:05:05Z aeth: s/my comments/my commits/
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2019-12-02T01:08:21Z White_Flame: aeth: technically in the image (but usually not in serailized data), there's NIL, non-NIL, and unbound
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2019-12-02T01:09:56Z aeth: White_Flame: But if you try to access unbound, you'll get an error, right?
2019-12-02T01:10:04Z White_Flame: yep
2019-12-02T01:10:16Z aeth: White_Flame: So it's unserializable without a special case code for it
2019-12-02T01:10:31Z White_Flame: obviously images are serialized too, though
2019-12-02T01:10:43Z aeth: General serialization is kind of a doomed task, anyway
2019-12-02T01:10:43Z White_Flame: it just usualy doesn't hit serialized user data
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2019-12-02T01:11:08Z aeth: I mean, general and portable. Images aren't even portable across versions typically afaik
2019-12-02T01:11:32Z White_Flame: but one could consider unbound to be a "special value" tested with unboundp (sort of like NaN tests need a different predicate), as that is also how it's often implemented
2019-12-02T01:12:02Z White_Flame: although I don't believe anything in the spec considers unboundness in that sense, especially with the history of a-list environments
2019-12-02T01:13:54Z aeth: White_Flame: The easiest way to handle serialization of an instance of an arbitrary class is to make the user deal with it
2019-12-02T01:15:35Z aeth: Some architectures are easier to serialize than others, e.g. the Entity Component System that's currently popular in game engine dev
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2019-12-02T01:25:11Z dlowe: aeth: That "main disavantage" seems hilariously trivial
2019-12-02T01:26:03Z dlowe: I mean, t and nil aren't the same either
2019-12-02T01:26:59Z pfdietz: I want serialization (in the sense of being able to put them in fasl files) of closures and lexical environments.
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2019-12-02T01:34:25Z aeth: dlowe: right, it is hilariously trivial
2019-12-02T01:36:08Z vsync: what's a good word for "I've completed the first pass over some work and there may or may not be more work to do after handing it off, which fact I may or may not actually already know"?
2019-12-02T01:37:20Z vsync: I meant "antonym" for concatenate earlier, btw, not "acronym" :-P
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2019-12-02T01:48:34Z nirved: vsync: antonyms of concatenate - disconnect, disjoin, divide, separate
2019-12-02T01:49:01Z vsync: I ended up using... wait, what did I end up using?
2019-12-02T01:49:08Z mfiano: decatenate, split
2019-12-02T01:50:28Z edgar-rft: un-concatenate
2019-12-02T01:50:52Z vsync: oh, slice because rather than a single-purpose "split this string into single-char strings", I made something to slice up a sequence into equal lengths and then defined string-char-strings in terms of that
2019-12-02T01:51:33Z vsync: unless this already exists I have plans to augment it with many lovely keyword arguments
2019-12-02T01:52:00Z vsync: could it be implemented in terms of split-sequence-if? perhaps, but this seems clearer and, I think, more performant
2019-12-02T01:52:36Z vsync: also this allows for a nice companion: splice
2019-12-02T01:53:10Z White_Flame: I've heard the notion that 10-12 list items is where it becomes faster to use a hashtable than searching the list.  Has this been measured for Lisp implementations, or do you think it's more specific to other-language implementations?
2019-12-02T01:53:11Z edgar-rft: antonym-of-conctenate would be *much* more lispy :-)
2019-12-02T01:53:15Z mfiano: Yes that operation is common, and is usually called "partition"
2019-12-02T01:53:34Z nirved: "I've completed..." -> 1. or I.
2019-12-02T01:53:56Z vsync: mfiano: I thought I had seen that somewhere, but when I looked at util packages it seemed to be an alias for split-sequence
2019-12-02T01:54:00Z vsync: distressingly
2019-12-02T01:54:31Z vsync: edgar-rft: ooh a friend of complement called antonym... or better, converse
2019-12-02T01:54:37Z vsync: converse or inverse?
2019-12-02T01:55:21Z nirved: chitchat or contrary?
2019-12-02T01:57:07Z mfiano: vsync: actually partition is for splitting based on a predicate function. "batches" is what you want. It's found in a few libraries such as serapeum
2019-12-02T01:57:29Z mfiano: CL-USER> (serapeum:batches "foobar" 2)
2019-12-02T01:57:31Z mfiano: ("fo" "ob" "ar")
2019-12-02T01:57:56Z vsync: :-(     but also :-)
2019-12-02T01:58:31Z edgar-rft: found-no-better-name could also be an altenative to take into account
2019-12-02T01:58:37Z vsync: heh
2019-12-02T01:59:08Z mfiano: There are 2 hard problems in computer science
2019-12-02T01:59:28Z White_Flame clears mfiano's cache
2019-12-02T01:59:38Z mfiano: :)
2019-12-02T02:00:16Z vsync: tanagra, a function which takes a function designator and returns a meme reference if available
2019-12-02T02:01:09Z mfiano: If I wanted to obfuscate code, I have reader macros as my primary weapon
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2019-12-02T02:04:45Z White_Flame: relevant: https://i.redd.it/cozohvgr2h7z.png
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2019-12-02T02:06:26Z White_Flame: reader macros + unicode + emoji would be the ultimate in human-unreadability
2019-12-02T02:09:43Z mfiano: i'd still probably sprinkle tagbody, case-specific symbols, and others liberally
2019-12-02T02:10:45Z mfiano: a CL obfuscator would be pretty unfair compared to other languages
2019-12-02T02:11:30Z LdBeth: Why need obfuscator when the code can be compiled
2019-12-02T02:14:13Z LdBeth: After searches a little bit I find out that even C has a need for it
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2019-12-02T02:19:30Z mfiano: White_Flame: Instead of emoji, just use combinations of unicode whitespace and non-printable character symbol names.
2019-12-02T02:21:01Z pfdietz: Let's not forget zero width space characters.
2019-12-02T02:21:24Z mfiano: err that's what i meant
2019-12-02T02:21:58Z mfiano: You'd be left with a series of parens, and you could change the dispatching characters for them to be similar
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2019-12-02T02:31:21Z kmeow: I have an array defined like (defvar arr #('(5 "David") '(3 "Sarah") '(2 "Alex"))), but doing a (car (elt arr 2)) gives me QUOTE, which is not what I was expecting [since (car '(3 "Sarah")) gives 3]
2019-12-02T02:32:23Z kmeow: I know how to get the numbers out of those lists in the array, but I don't understand what's going on exactly
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2019-12-02T02:32:43Z Xach: kmeow: '(5 "David") is a list of two elements, QUOTE and (5 "David")
2019-12-02T02:32:53Z Bike: #(...) constructs literal vectors. the elements aren't evaluated.
2019-12-02T02:32:58Z Xach: '<anything> is shorthand for (QUOTE <anything>)
2019-12-02T02:33:26Z kmeow: ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
2019-12-02T02:33:27Z Xach: when evaluated, (QUOTE <anything>) results in <anything>
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2019-12-02T02:33:51Z kmeow: so ' needed to be evaluated for it to turn the lists inside into actual lists
2019-12-02T02:33:57Z Xach: kmeow: right
2019-12-02T02:34:04Z Xach: before evaluation it's just a list
2019-12-02T02:34:44Z White_Flame: try (vector '(5 "David") ...).  That's a function that will evalate them as parameters.
2019-12-02T02:35:16Z White_Flame: whereas #( just compiles the vector from the literals you put there
2019-12-02T02:36:33Z White_Flame: '('5) => ((QUOTE 5)), #('5) => #((QUOTE 5)
2019-12-02T02:36:33Z kmeow: okay, that seems to work the way I expect! Thanks fellas
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2019-12-02T02:36:44Z White_Flame: (list '5) => (5), (vector '5) => #(5)
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2019-12-02T04:30:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-12-02T04:40:25Z fengshaun: 20min to next AoC puzzle!
2019-12-02T04:43:51Z beach: Appelation d'origine controlée?
2019-12-02T04:47:14Z no-defun-allowed: Probably Advent of Code. No wine or cheese involved, sadly.
2019-12-02T04:47:19Z fengshaun: beach, Advent of Code
2019-12-02T04:47:27Z fengshaun: no-defun-allowed, why not?
2019-12-02T04:47:35Z aeth: Probably «Avent du code source»
2019-12-02T04:47:43Z beach: Ah.
2019-12-02T04:48:15Z no-defun-allowed: fengshaun: Wikipedia tells me the name beach had in mind "is the French certification granted to certain French geographical indications for wines, cheeses, butters, and other agricultural products."
2019-12-02T04:48:25Z aeth: Of course, I'm not sure how they got "AoC" from "ACS"
2019-12-02T04:53:45Z fengshaun: time to get some wine and cheese then!
2019-12-02T04:55:26Z fengshaun: I don't have any projects that lend themselves to high level languages, so AoC is a good place to do some lisp
2019-12-02T04:56:01Z beach: fengshaun: I have a web page of suggested project in case you are looking for something.
2019-12-02T04:56:33Z fengshaun: I have quite a few in my todo list, but almost all are embedded stuff
2019-12-02T04:56:48Z beach: metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2019-12-02T04:56:55Z beach: They are all Common Lisp projects.
2019-12-02T04:57:37Z fengshaun: 'a web browser', what the...
2019-12-02T04:58:46Z aeth: fengshaun: one of these days some unfortunate person is going to read 'a web browser' from the list, not realize how hard it is, and 5 years later actually have one written
2019-12-02T04:59:03Z beach: fengshaun: Feel free to give me feedback on the items of that list.
2019-12-02T04:59:38Z fengshaun: aeth, that sounds like a worthwhile adventure considering the state of browsers
2019-12-02T04:59:46Z fengshaun: beach, the list looks good!
2019-12-02T04:59:49Z beach: Thanks.
2019-12-02T05:00:19Z fengshaun: maybe I should put my to-do-projects list up somewhere
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2019-12-02T05:07:56Z beach: "email client" and "calendar program" should be very easy given that we have McCLIM.
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2019-12-02T05:14:52Z beach: And "web browser" can be thought of as a collection of modules for displaying text, images, movies, PDF documents, etc.
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2019-12-02T07:26:35Z mfiano: Is McCLIM usable on modern displays yet? I had tried a couple months ago and it was not.
2019-12-02T07:30:02Z beach: It is probably best to ask that in #clim.  What made it not usable for you?
2019-12-02T07:31:38Z mfiano: CLX does not properly consult the X resource database. As such, on a high DPI display, the cursor size is so tiny that you can barely see it, let alone accurately manipulate it. The same for font sizes, etc, although there are workaround hacks for them, unlike the cursor.
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2019-12-02T07:33:09Z vsync: mfiano: s/modern/high-dpi/
2019-12-02T07:33:35Z mfiano: That is true. I haven't had a non-high DPI display in years.
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2019-12-02T07:38:22Z beach: So the problem is with X11 and/or CLX?
2019-12-02T07:39:42Z mfiano: CLX. X11 apps are to query the X resource manager for information such as the DPI. CLX does not
2019-12-02T07:40:16Z beach: It is true that CLX has not kept up with X11 evolution.  An update is needed.  I would like to see it use more generic functions as well.
2019-12-02T07:40:36Z beach: And more standard classes.
2019-12-02T07:41:39Z mfiano: That would be nice.
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2019-12-02T07:46:51Z beach: Also, an update should emphasize xrender more than what is currently done.
2019-12-02T07:47:15Z MichaelRaskin: email client for the modern mess would probably be fine-ish, given it can just refuse to do any scripting. A Web browser nowadays is not a collection of modules for displaying sane documents, it's a damned operating system with API creep and compatibility expectations creeping apparently beyond the scope of POSIX…
2019-12-02T07:48:38Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Is your description of the current state of things a necessity, or just the result of the use of traditional language and linker technology?
2019-12-02T07:49:23Z MichaelRaskin: It is not a necessity for bulding a useful Web, but it is a necessity to use modern government Web services
2019-12-02T07:49:26Z mfiano: I did get a chance to learn McCLIM on a friend's computer, and it was nice. Although sometimes it would crash X11 completely with a memory error, so I'm sure CLX can be made more correct on multiple counts.
2019-12-02T07:50:28Z MichaelRaskin: (and many commercial services are worse, not better, than the government ones)
2019-12-02T07:50:50Z no-defun-allowed: Um, if it crashes X11, I think that is a server bug.
2019-12-02T07:50:51Z beach: mfiano: Some of those problems have been fixed by avoiding the execution of code that would make the server crash.
2019-12-02T07:51:12Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Indeed, but we can work around them.
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2019-12-02T07:51:54Z beach: MichaelRaskin: What I meant to ask was whether it is a necessity for a web browser to not be modular.
2019-12-02T07:52:26Z mfiano: I'm not sure whose fault it was, but I could reliably crash the X server by resizing a McCLIM window.
2019-12-02T07:52:29Z beach: I fail to see how such a property could be the fault of the particular web sites being consulted.
2019-12-02T07:52:37Z mfiano: That was about a year ago though.
2019-12-02T07:53:11Z beach: mfiano: It is definitely a server problem, but like I said, things have been fixed with workarounds.
2019-12-02T07:54:10Z mfiano: I wouldn't know. I haven't had a computer where McCLIM renders visibly in about a year.
2019-12-02T07:54:20Z no-defun-allowed: A web browser is modular (one may decompose one into rendering engines, parsers and script interpreters/compilers, at least) but the stages one would also imagine (read the file from the server, read any dependencies like scripts and stylesheets, then render it) are expected to be very interleaved.
2019-12-02T07:56:06Z MichaelRaskin: Browsers are kind of modular, but in your classification most of the complexity is just one part, Web APIs. Then there is CSS. Then there are some small and nice additional modules.
2019-12-02T07:56:52Z MichaelRaskin: And of course modern browsers try to do Web API implementations kind of modular (however they are eventually brought together), but it is a huge mess just by size
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2019-12-02T07:57:26Z MichaelRaskin: CSS is probably smaller on total size, but worse on density of connections
2019-12-02T07:57:57Z beach: Why is size a problem if the thing is modular?
2019-12-02T08:01:10Z MichaelRaskin: Well, CSS might just be a small number of huge modules that are hard to modularise further, and in Web APIs there are large chunks where Blink breaks the spec, and Gecko implements both the proper and Blink behaviour, and to test the result you need enough APIs to test against the trash-quality websites that actually use this API (and a ton of others)
2019-12-02T08:03:57Z beach: I shall have to take your word for it.  I don't know enough of web technology to understand.
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2019-12-02T08:07:47Z MichaelRaskin: I agree that Web APIs are just a large pile of kind-of-modularisable things with imprecise spec and compatibility concerns, so they can be written part-by-part. But for that level of modularity Object Pascal is enough.
2019-12-02T08:08:23Z MichaelRaskin: I guess adding just enough JavaScript support that Lobste;rs submission form works is nice and doable and modularisable
2019-12-02T08:08:30Z beach: I don't understand why you brought up Object Pascal.  Is that what things are typically written in?
2019-12-02T08:08:56Z MichaelRaskin: Just to say that facilities for modularisation have not be a bottleneck in the last 30 years
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2019-12-02T08:09:36Z MichaelRaskin: These things are written in C++, or in Rust nowadays. It looks like Rust has enough memory safety to be a fully sufficient choice for them
2019-12-02T08:10:26Z beach: I don't know Object Pascal, but anything with manual memory management or that does not use uniform reference semantics is going to be problematic for modularity.
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2019-12-02T08:13:40Z Shinmera: Implementing an HTML renderer is a big task, but doable. Implementing an HTML5 renderer probably already not. Implementing a CSS renderer is a gigantic task not even the big players can keep up with.
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2019-12-02T08:14:32Z beach: The web is a mess, that's for sure.
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2019-12-02T08:15:55Z MichaelRaskin: Mere HTML5 without CSS is not yet that bad, I think
2019-12-02T08:16:02Z MichaelRaskin: It's just never without CSS
2019-12-02T08:16:12Z Shinmera: Video rendering and the JS canvas is pretty damn bad I'd say.
2019-12-02T08:16:40Z Shinmera: Video codecs are an entire hellscape of their own
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2019-12-02T08:16:58Z MichaelRaskin: I think one can list «pretty damn bad» Web APIs for a long time without much effort…
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2019-12-02T08:18:51Z no-defun-allowed: The part I dislike the most is that whitespace is significant. If I write <span>foo</span><span>bar</span>, it is different to <span>foo</span> <span>bar</span>, which is sometimes what I want, but also sometimes not.
2019-12-02T08:20:01Z no-defun-allowed: Or maybe that's a CL-WHO problem for not letting me choose in places where it matters, like disabling whitespace between elements which I use to create a bar graph, but keeping it everywhere else to make the source more readable.
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2019-12-02T10:32:49Z p_l: in order to implement HTML5 you need to implement JS, and to fairly high level
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2019-12-02T10:53:55Z edgar-rft: The funny thing is that HTML originally was meant to be a *simple* markup language.
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2019-12-02T10:56:19Z no-defun-allowed: All of cl-who is compile-time, right? So I couldn't set some magic variable or something to change the whitespace mode?
2019-12-02T10:57:22Z no-defun-allowed: I could probably embed another with-html-output macro inside the body with different settings though.
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2019-12-02T12:32:02Z kmeow: is there an easy way to append elements to a vector?
2019-12-02T12:32:17Z kmeow: (in Common Lisp)
2019-12-02T12:32:30Z _death: clhs vector-push-extend
2019-12-02T12:32:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vec_ps.htm
2019-12-02T12:33:46Z kmeow: thanks
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2019-12-02T13:26:33Z kmeow: so I guess the optional extension argument to vector-push-extend is for reserving space in advance
2019-12-02T13:26:55Z kmeow: so you're not doing a realloc every time you use it
2019-12-02T13:28:04Z kmeow: that's p cool
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2019-12-02T13:54:15Z _death: normally it's not necessary to specify it, implementation may have a sane default
2019-12-02T13:54:58Z _death: if you know the size in advance you can also create a vector with just a fill-pointer and use vector-push
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2019-12-02T17:27:04Z Josh_2: Is there a function to copy and instance of a class? basically to make a clone
2019-12-02T17:29:28Z Shinmera: The operation is not well-defined, so no there is not.
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2019-12-02T17:31:11Z sjl_: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
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2019-12-02T17:36:40Z phoe: minion: tell Josh_2 about equality
2019-12-02T17:36:42Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``equality''.
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2019-12-02T17:42:21Z Josh_2: Shinmera: alrighty well I won't bother then
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2019-12-02T17:45:49Z phoe: Josh_2: basically, write it yourself
2019-12-02T17:45:52Z pjb: see also the CDR that defines EQUALS.
2019-12-02T17:46:07Z phoe: since a generic copier needs additional information to be able to do what you mean
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2019-12-02T17:51:38Z phoe: minion: tell Josh_2 about copying
2019-12-02T17:51:39Z minion: Josh_2: direct your attention towards copying: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
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2019-12-02T17:57:10Z Bike: i wonder if there would be some value in exposing the copying that change-class is defined to use, though.
2019-12-02T17:57:14Z Bike: an easily defined shallow copy
2019-12-02T17:57:39Z dlowe: pretty easy to do that with mop
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2019-12-02T17:58:28Z Bike: well, by looping over the slots and stuff, yeah
2019-12-02T17:58:41Z Bike: implementations might have something faster under the hood, like copying a storage vector
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2019-12-02T20:41:15Z didi: Should systems automatically define -USER packages?
2019-12-02T20:41:32Z phoe: didi: depends on the system
2019-12-02T20:41:38Z phoe: I don't see any reason for SPLIT-SEQUENCE-USER
2019-12-02T20:42:02Z didi: phoe: I see what you're saying.
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2019-12-02T20:44:36Z no-defun-allowed: Only if you expect the user to a package like that quite frequently. The only system I've made that does is lisp-strikes-twice.
2019-12-02T20:45:34Z no-defun-allowed: And that is an exploitation framework like metasploit or whatever skiddies use these days, but in Lisp and using the full power of the user's Lisp's REPL.
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2019-12-02T20:47:08Z no-defun-allowed: So I would expect a user to want a -user package for that, because most of the functions they use are in that system.
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2019-12-02T20:55:42Z copec: I was under the impression that most clos implementations are storing each slot grouped together referenced by clos object instance, unlike a vector or like a c struct
2019-12-02T20:56:17Z Shinmera: every slot has a location which is a positive integer
2019-12-02T20:56:54Z Shinmera: making the actual storage for standard-instance-access a vector is sensible with that in mind.
2019-12-02T20:57:32Z Shinmera: this is for standard-classes. Others may have entirely different storage and access methods of course.
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2019-12-02T20:58:28Z copec: Makes me want to read the standard closely this evening for slot storage
2019-12-02T20:58:42Z copec: Is that what the standard says about slot location Shinmera
2019-12-02T20:58:43Z Shinmera: you'll have to consult the MOP for what I said
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2019-12-02T20:58:54Z didi should read The Art of the Metaobject Protocol
2019-12-02T20:59:44Z Shinmera: Specifically the Instance Structure Protocol section
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2019-12-02T21:01:54Z copec: I read the art of the mop some time ago, but iirc the example implementation used a hashtable for each slot definition
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2019-12-02T21:06:46Z Bike: in closette, the slots are a simple vector.
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2019-12-02T21:20:43Z copec: Well, so goes my human memory
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2019-12-02T21:24:39Z Bike: by "each slot grouped together referenced by clos object instance" you mean like, each slot name would have a hash table where the keys are instances and the values are the slot values? i think there might have been an implementation of "virtual slots" in there doing that
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2019-12-02T21:25:55Z copec: I probably saw something at some point, or conflated the storage of slot (meta) properties with the storage of actual slot data
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2019-12-02T21:34:12Z bbsl: q
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2019-12-02T21:35:01Z bbsl: hi! I am trying to do part one of a8c but I am getting stuck on the last bit which is using my (hacky) function (eval-all). Anyone care to have a look and tell me what I am doing wrong?: https://rextester.com/live/UJVC52026 (this is my 2nd day of lisp so)
2019-12-02T21:36:49Z dlowe: bbsl: Hi, you might be interested in the #clschool channel
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2019-12-02T21:37:52Z bbsl: dlowe: ty I will ask again in there :)
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2019-12-02T21:38:21Z dlowe: bbsl: it's fine to ask in here too
2019-12-02T21:38:24Z dlowe: I'm looking at it
2019-12-02T21:38:44Z bbsl: oh nice ty :)
2019-12-02T21:38:55Z dlowe: I assume your int-split function works?
2019-12-02T21:39:10Z Bike: "part one of a8c"?
2019-12-02T21:39:19Z Bike: is this sicp or something?
2019-12-02T21:39:22Z bbsl: aoc*
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2019-12-02T21:39:29Z jackdaniel: sounds like advent of code mispell
2019-12-02T21:39:40Z bbsl: jackdaniel: yes :)
2019-12-02T21:39:53Z LdBeth: I assume set-nth works as intended
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2019-12-02T21:40:04Z aeth: advent is 6 letters long so you could all it a6c :-p
2019-12-02T21:40:15Z bbsl: dlowe: everything works except for the last function eval-all
2019-12-02T21:40:37Z Bike: um, well, you're passing eval-all -4, so offsetn will be zero, right?
2019-12-02T21:40:46Z Bike: and zero is definitely going to be <= the length of anything
2019-12-02T21:40:46Z dlowe: bbsl: you can literally (setf (nth 3 lst) 5) btw
2019-12-02T21:40:59Z Bike: so the recursive part will never happen
2019-12-02T21:41:09Z Bike: i don't know what you want this function to do, but that seems weird?
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2019-12-02T21:41:24Z dlowe: I think he's trying to do the recursive iteration popular in scheme
2019-12-02T21:41:41Z Bike: i mean that's fine, but it won't happen
2019-12-02T21:41:43Z dlowe: but the program doesn't stop when it reaches the end - it stops when it encounters opcode 99
2019-12-02T21:41:56Z dlowe: so there's really no reason for that check anyway
2019-12-02T21:42:40Z Bike: oh, it's a bytecode interpreter, i see.
2019-12-02T21:42:43Z bbsl: hmmm I guess let me try to remove that part, I thought I was checking for the inverse I guess that (a < b)
2019-12-02T21:42:50Z jackdaniel: and we ain't gonna stop even at the end, opcode 99 is our stay, la la la
2019-12-02T21:43:02Z Bike: i mean you could just swap <= to >= i guess.
2019-12-02T21:43:12Z Bike: or indeed just remove it
2019-12-02T21:43:14Z dlowe: or swap the consequent and the alternate
2019-12-02T21:43:27Z dlowe: you still need to stop at opcode 99 though
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2019-12-02T21:44:46Z bbsl: I guess I do not understand return values very well (or at all) in cl. "setf" will morph the input given in the context of the funtion or? I just want to return a new list with the new values
2019-12-02T21:45:23Z Bike: the setf-nth function is different from (setf nth) in that it returns a fresh list
2019-12-02T21:46:00Z Bike: that's fine. it's not how i'd write it but there's nothing wrong with doing it that way, it's just maybe inefficient
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2019-12-02T21:46:23Z Bike: just doin some of that functional programming
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2019-12-02T21:46:49Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe a vector would be more suitable.
2019-12-02T21:46:53Z Bike: plus that way you don't have to understand setf yet, because I don't think you do based on that description
2019-12-02T21:46:55Z LdBeth: bbsl: so halt when reach 99 is your intended behavior?
2019-12-02T21:47:24Z bbsl: LdBeth: yes I want to halt at 99
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2019-12-02T21:47:57Z LdBeth: bbsl: But I don’t see your code do anything “halt” the program when the op is 99, so I guess that’s the problem
2019-12-02T21:48:17Z Bike: the other problem.
2019-12-02T21:48:23Z bbsl: :D
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2019-12-02T21:49:07Z Bike: i'm pretty sure the initial problem is that with the offsetn = 0 thing, eval-current isn't called at all.
2019-12-02T21:49:31Z bbsl: Bike: I think you are correct in that
2019-12-02T21:49:45Z Bike: other than that this is like what, a three address code i guess
2019-12-02T21:51:11Z Bike: with this structure, to handle 99 correctly i suppose you could have eval-current return some kind of special object (e.g. nil) to indicate that there is nothing left to do, and then eval-all has to check that
2019-12-02T21:51:25Z bbsl: LdBeth: how should I go about making it halt then I guess I can check if last-return from eval-current == this-return or I can return nil when I get 99 and always keep last-return so I can return that when I get nil
2019-12-02T21:52:31Z LdBeth: 'clhs catch
2019-12-02T21:53:02Z LdBeth: * I forgot how to use the bot
2019-12-02T21:53:14Z no-defun-allowed: clhs throw
2019-12-02T21:53:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_throw.htm
2019-12-02T21:54:06Z LdBeth: no-defun-allowed: thanks
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2019-12-02T22:06:13Z bbsl: nice it works now. ty for all the  pointers.
2019-12-02T22:10:47Z bbsl: While we are at it does anyone know of a link to a decent cl dev-env setup for emacs? I am using slime currently but that is about it. Would be nice if it was possible to get flychecking and company mode working ie.
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2019-12-02T22:11:14Z phoe: portacle
2019-12-02T22:11:21Z phoe: http://portacle.github.io/
2019-12-02T22:11:32Z phoe: or set yourself up with spacemacs with the common-lisp layer - that's what I do
2019-12-02T22:13:18Z bbsl: I was using spacemacs but they borked scala support with the whole metals/ensime thing so I stopped using it :o. ty for the link will check it out.
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2019-12-03T03:39:51Z mister_m: I have a user-entered pathname that I've invoked (uiop:ensure-directory-pathame ...) on. I want to use that base directory and then join it with another "relative namestring" to make a full pathname to a file. If my pathname is #P"/home/x/y/z/", and i want to join on "testing/a/path.txt" to it to make in total #P"/home/x/y/z/testing/a/path.txt", how can I do that? Trying uiop:merge-pathnames* gives me #P"/home/x/y/z/path.txt". I'm
2019-12-03T03:39:51Z mister_m: realizing I really don't understand how pathnames work.
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2019-12-03T03:53:58Z mister_m: oh my god i flipped the arguments
2019-12-03T03:54:07Z mister_m: to uiop:merge-pathnames*
2019-12-03T03:54:26Z mister_m: :)
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2019-12-03T03:58:59Z markasoftware_: test
2019-12-03T03:59:07Z markasoftware_: ok we're good
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2019-12-03T05:26:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-03T07:14:32Z no-defun-allowed: Random question, is it specified if #+FOO will intern FOO in the package KEYWORD?
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2019-12-03T07:16:40Z Shinmera: clhs 2.4.8.17
2019-12-03T07:16:40Z specbot: Sharpsign Plus: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm
2019-12-03T07:16:51Z Shinmera: "#+ operates by first reading the feature expression and then skipping over the form if the feature expression fails. While reading the test, the current package is the KEYWORD package. "
2019-12-03T07:16:53Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks Shinmera
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2019-12-03T07:59:14Z phoe: morniiiing
2019-12-03T08:01:06Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe
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2019-12-03T08:02:04Z phoe: hey setf-fdefinition-permitted
2019-12-03T08:02:47Z no-defun-allowed: >:[
2019-12-03T08:02:55Z no-defun-allowed: >:[
2019-12-03T08:04:46Z phoe: okay, I'm sorry
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2019-12-03T08:12:30Z ck_: no no I think those are function symbols
2019-12-03T08:13:30Z ck_: https://www.mindprod.com/jgloss/unmaintricks.html -> search for 'lisp
2019-12-03T08:13:46Z ck_: without the quote, sorry
2019-12-03T08:14:25Z no-defun-allowed: O.o
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2019-12-03T08:22:20Z easye: Roedy Green, of Mind Products.  A figure I haven't thought about for a while.
2019-12-03T08:22:26Z edgar-rft: first (defun -_- nil 'zzZZ) now you can do (-_-) => zzZZ
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2019-12-03T08:29:36Z ck_: edgar-rft: graphical programming is the future [tm]
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2019-12-03T08:35:52Z jackdaniel: (with-graphical-context () (-_-)) ; => graphical zzZZ
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2019-12-03T09:58:59Z phoe: I have an EQUAL hash table with cons keys.
2019-12-03T09:59:17Z phoe: What happens if I mutate the conses elsewhere? Is that behaviour defined?
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2019-12-03T09:59:55Z beach: I doubt it.
2019-12-03T10:00:34Z beach: clhs 18.1.2
2019-12-03T10:00:34Z specbot: Modifying Hash Table Keys: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/18_ab.htm
2019-12-03T10:01:24Z phoe: oh, so it is!
2019-12-03T10:01:27Z phoe: thanks, beach
2019-12-03T10:01:32Z beach: Sure.
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2019-12-03T11:06:35Z flip214: defined to be undefined
2019-12-03T11:09:19Z phoe: good
2019-12-03T11:09:29Z phoe: much better that is undefined to be undefined
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2019-12-03T12:46:00Z flip214: there's a backslash coming
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2019-12-03T15:23:27Z flip214: Is there some function that can convert a number to some indirectly specified type?
2019-12-03T15:23:47Z shka__: this sounds cryptic
2019-12-03T15:23:59Z flip214: I'd like an average to be of the same type as the input (integers, floats, ratios), but (coerce (/ sum count) (type-of (first input))) doesn't work
2019-12-03T15:24:19Z shka__: oh, it kinda should
2019-12-03T15:24:34Z flip214: sbcl says that this ratio can't be converted to (INTEGER 0 ...)
2019-12-03T15:24:59Z flip214: and doing typecase here feels _very_ unclean, in a dynamic programming language ;)
2019-12-03T15:25:11Z shka__: well, obviously
2019-12-03T15:25:22Z shka__: you can't convert ratio to integer
2019-12-03T15:25:37Z flip214: shka__: FLOOR could
2019-12-03T15:25:37Z shka__: you can round
2019-12-03T15:25:53Z shka__: yes, but floor does not convert
2019-12-03T15:25:59Z shka__: it does much more
2019-12-03T15:26:02Z flip214: I would like to avoid doing that "by hand" ...
2019-12-03T15:26:13Z flip214: ain't there some REALLY-COERCE function or so?
2019-12-03T15:26:31Z loke`: flip214: What do you want such function to do?
2019-12-03T15:26:42Z shka__: what you are doing is not coercing though
2019-12-03T15:27:20Z flip214: well, it's not casting either, is it?
2019-12-03T15:27:50Z flip214: loke`: I'd like a lossy change from one number to the type of another
2019-12-03T15:28:08Z loke`: flip214: Such as?
2019-12-03T15:28:25Z shka__: flip214: you will have to write your own function
2019-12-03T15:28:39Z flip214: loke`: converting a ratio to an integer
2019-12-03T15:28:47Z flip214: shka__: Yeah, I put a TYPECASE in now
2019-12-03T15:29:11Z loke`: flip214: That would be TRUNCATE, no?
2019-12-03T15:29:22Z shka__: that would do
2019-12-03T15:29:54Z loke`: I mean, when do you really need a coerce function where the type is variable?
2019-12-03T15:30:03Z shka__: there is no generic function for this because it wouldn't be usefull for general use
2019-12-03T15:30:58Z flip214: loke`: when the inputs are integer, I'd like the average to be an integer as well
2019-12-03T15:31:49Z loke`: flip214: That sounds like a rather odd requirement.
2019-12-03T15:32:04Z loke`: I'm sure you have a use case, but it's not really generic.
2019-12-03T15:32:06Z Bike: but if they're ratios and the average is a ratio you want that ratio?
2019-12-03T15:32:49Z nirved: the average of ratios can be integer
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2019-12-03T15:34:30Z Bike: that's why i said "and the average is a ratio", yeah
2019-12-03T15:34:33Z flip214: Bike: right
2019-12-03T15:34:41Z pjb: flip214: use a hash-table, or a vector.
2019-12-03T15:35:06Z Bike: i'm with loke in not understanding why you want this. you'll have to apply these rules yourself by checking the classes of the arguments.
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2019-12-03T15:35:49Z Bike: unlike the contagion rules in the language arithmetic these don't even associate, i don't think
2019-12-03T15:36:12Z pjb: If you want to convert numbers to numbers, some rounding will be necessary.  And even, how do you round #C(2 2) to integer?  Is it 2? 3? 4? does this mean anything?
2019-12-03T15:37:05Z nirved: flip214: maybe you'd like to take the median instead of mean
2019-12-03T15:37:16Z Bike: well you could only get a complex average if one of the arguments was complex
2019-12-03T15:37:27Z Bike: in which case presumably there would be no coercion to integer
2019-12-03T15:37:29Z loke`: And even if you have solution in your specific case (such as for example just taking the realpart of a complex number), that's never a generic solution.
2019-12-03T15:37:49Z flip214: pjb: I'd like to print average and stddev in the same format as the input.. so that column values (1 2 3 4) don't require a 2.5 in the "average" row
2019-12-03T15:38:02Z Bike: i mean, your average will be wrong, then
2019-12-03T15:38:08Z flip214: actual numbers are 7 digits or more, so rounding is insignificant
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2019-12-03T15:39:42Z pjb: (average '(#c(2 2)  #c(0.5 4)  -3)) #| --> #C(-0.16666667 2.0) |#
2019-12-03T15:39:49Z pjb: What's wrong with ~A?
2019-12-03T15:40:40Z pjb: The most typical number is not 0, it may be #c(1/2 4/3)…
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2019-12-03T17:48:32Z galdor: is there any issue with APPLY-ing a function with &REST arguments such as MIN on very large lists ?
2019-12-03T17:48:46Z galdor: (as in, hundreds or thousands of elements)
2019-12-03T17:50:27Z phoe: galdor: yes
2019-12-03T17:50:28Z phoe: clhs CALL-ARGUMENTS-LIMIT
2019-12-03T17:50:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm
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2019-12-03T18:38:56Z galdor: oh interesting, thank you
2019-12-03T18:39:23Z galdor: so if I want to find the minimum of a list with maybe a key function and a predicate, I should write it myself
2019-12-03T18:40:57Z Xach: galdor: reduce is often an option
2019-12-03T18:42:46Z Josh_2: galdor: (reduce #'min (list 5 1 2 3 4)) ?
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2019-12-03T18:47:29Z bbsl: does cl base have any way to manipulate strings like lists? I just need a way to from a string get head (the first char) and tail (the rest of the chars)
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2019-12-03T18:48:23Z kritixilithos: bbsl: in cl a string is an array
2019-12-03T18:49:39Z Xach: bbsl: you would use subseq to get parts of the string. or you could displace an array to parts of the string. the sequence operations have different implications than with lists.
2019-12-03T18:49:48Z Xach: you can't get the tail of a string for "free"
2019-12-03T18:52:55Z Shinmera: Most sequence functions also take a start and an end
2019-12-03T18:53:05Z Shinmera: so you don't have to create an explicit subsequence.
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2019-12-03T18:54:57Z Xach: bbsl: any new cool info about what you're doing so we can offer more suggestions? some of them possibly helpful?
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2019-12-03T19:04:43Z bbsl: Xach: well I didnt get much wiser. Online I found a string-to-list function referenced but its not part of the std lib so meh. I can use (subseq) I guess but that wont work for be because I do not know the start and end of these "sequences" other than by index. I guess the mythical sequence start/end params mentioned here is the answer to my question
2019-12-03T19:05:48Z Shinmera: Eh? (char string 0) -> head, (subseq string 1) -> tail
2019-12-03T19:06:18Z Xach: bbsl: i mean why do you want to work with a string like that in the first place?
2019-12-03T19:07:12Z bbsl: Xach: I dont but its the input to my program so I have to parse it somewhere.
2019-12-03T19:08:13Z Xach: ok
2019-12-03T19:08:35Z Xach: I guess my general advice would be "don't try to work with strings like that if you can avoid it"
2019-12-03T19:08:44Z Xach: there are lots of ways to avoid it
2019-12-03T19:08:59Z bbsl: Shinmera: oh :o) heh ty
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2019-12-03T19:10:34Z bbsl: Xach: Im sure but this is my 3rd day (I guess hour even) of cl so I am not expecting my code to be very idiomatic
2019-12-03T19:10:39Z Bike: like by iterating over a string one character at a time.
2019-12-03T19:11:19Z Bike: you can also just write out '(#\h #\e #\l ...) if you really want a list. or (coerce "hello world" 'list)
2019-12-03T19:11:20Z jasom: bbsl: I usually use a string and an offset for that case.  Then head would just be (char string offset) and tail would be (1+ offset).
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2019-12-03T19:18:46Z aeth: bbsl: In general, most things are sequence-generic, which includes strings, which are just character vectors
2019-12-03T19:19:17Z aeth: bbsl: If you're clever and you need an output list, you can e.g. use MAP to take advantage of this
2019-12-03T19:20:14Z aeth: (map 'list #'char-code "hello world") ; combines the conversion-to-list step with a processing step, in this case #'char-code
2019-12-03T19:21:17Z bbsl: aeth: ahh right Il remember that. At least map is somewhat familiar in this language even though it has like 6 of them :)
2019-12-03T19:22:11Z aeth: This is the equivalent in LOOP. Notice there is a slight difference because you use vector's :across instead of list's :in. (loop :for char :across "hello world" :collect (char-code char))
2019-12-03T19:22:41Z aeth: LOOP's a bit more confusing, but it's basically just a for loop when used like this.
2019-12-03T19:23:09Z aeth: It's just that :collect automatically builds a list instead of having to manually do so in :do
2019-12-03T19:23:55Z aeth: bbsl: As for the various variations of MAP, only MAP itself is generic, the others are specific to lists. MAPCAR is very roughly equivalent to MAP, but for lists alone.
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2019-12-03T19:35:56Z galdor: REDUCE works indeed, thank you!
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2019-12-03T19:49:55Z bbsl: aeth: ok thank you for the clarifications though I am not familiar with the :<bar> syntax of ie loop yet. I know you use :<bar> :<baz> to adress variables (?) in objects (?) but for lopp ie I am writing it like (loop for i from foo to bar <blergh>) ie. though I know you can do (loop :for ). I guess it makes sense if what I said first and loop is a iterable object or smt?
2019-12-03T19:50:33Z bbsl: *if what I said first is correct
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2019-12-03T19:51:55Z Bike: using ":for" or "for" doesn't matter to the semantics of the loop macro
2019-12-03T19:52:20Z Bike: there are reasons to use one or the other, but they're boring and you shouldn't worry about it
2019-12-03T19:53:24Z bbsl: yea I am just not very confident with the syntax but I know that both work, though I am not sure why yet :)
2019-12-03T19:53:52Z bbsl: I guess I should learn about macros I have ignored that part so far
2019-12-03T19:54:20Z jasom: bbsl: I recommend not learning the guts of macros for now if you are a beginner.
2019-12-03T19:54:40Z Bike: this is kind of a special LOOP thing.
2019-12-03T19:54:42Z jasom: bbsl: once you are more comfortable with lisp they are quite easy to reason about, but until then it will likely just confuse you more
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2019-12-03T19:55:23Z bbsl: hmm I guess I will put it off then. for now my goal is just to fiddle around with the language
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2019-12-03T19:56:21Z bbsl: Also. Does anyone know if there is a way (prefrably in slime) to given a type list out the functions available (prefrably in my env) that works on that type
2019-12-03T19:56:40Z Xach: bbsl: no
2019-12-03T19:56:50Z Bike: not really. that concept makes less sense outside of an environment like java where functions are tied to classes.
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2019-12-03T19:58:38Z Bike: (and parameters have static types, and etc)
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2019-12-03T20:00:40Z bbsl: well it would increase discoverability by a lot. In haskell ie you can use hoogle to search for a function signature that matches what you want. In cl I feel stuck some times because I do not know the names of functions
2019-12-03T20:01:45Z Bike: haskell has static types. it makes sense in haskell.
2019-12-03T20:01:56Z Bike: common lisp is not really organized in the same way, that's all
2019-12-03T20:04:38Z Bike: plus there are higher order functions but not universally quantified types, so some things would be hard to express
2019-12-03T20:05:55Z _death: well, there is an xref facility that may work for some types
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2019-12-03T20:09:42Z dlowe: you can view methods which are specialized on types
2019-12-03T20:09:49Z dlowe: but most functions aren't methods
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2019-12-03T20:17:09Z boeg: I've only been using sly in emacs to run common lisp, but now I want to run a script in a shell. Problem is, I have been using quickload to load modules, but this doesn't seem to work when I do "sbcl --script script.lisp", says it can't find QL which I use to require the module "split-sequence".  How do I use a module with sbcl like that?
2019-12-03T20:19:07Z Bike: when you use --script it skips the sbcl init files that load quicklisp.
2019-12-03T20:19:24Z Bike: for a start you can try using --load instead
2019-12-03T20:19:58Z boeg: that works, thank you
2019-12-03T20:20:00Z Bike: alternately you can load quicklisp at the top of your script
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2019-12-03T20:20:34Z boeg: Bike: ill remember that
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2019-12-03T20:21:15Z _death: does sbcl default image contain asdf?
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2019-12-03T20:22:15Z Bike: i... don't remember. you can just (require :asdf) tho
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2019-12-03T21:09:31Z phoe: _death: AFAIK the vanilla image doesn't, you need to explicitly require it.
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2019-12-03T21:09:46Z phoe: Yes, that's correct.
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2019-12-03T21:28:28Z Xach:   /win 3
2019-12-03T21:29:20Z no-defun-allowed: congratulations, Xach is the winner of random IRC game where one must write "/win 3" to win
2019-12-03T21:30:13Z bbsl: too bad he did'nt write "/win 3" but rather "   /win 3" :D
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2019-12-03T21:43:32Z _death: phoe: good to know, thanks
2019-12-03T21:44:07Z bbsl: could someone please have a look at the bottom of https://rextester.com/BWJYD91713 . I am trying to (like I write in the comments) run a function against every item in a list but for each time it runs I want to take one of the (values x y) it returns and also feed that into the next call. My head is jumbled with all the new syntax and I am trying to use a let binding inside a collect but I guess thats not how you do it. I guess I can
2019-12-03T21:44:07Z bbsl: mapcar with a lambda to do the same thing?
2019-12-03T21:46:37Z Bike: you're talking about map-path?
2019-12-03T21:47:10Z Bike: i don't understand what you're trying to express here.
2019-12-03T21:47:24Z Bike: you call map-dir, and it returns two values, and you do what with them?
2019-12-03T21:47:48Z Bike: using let with collect is fine, but your let here is invalid syntax
2019-12-03T21:48:41Z _death: maybe something like (loop for dir in path for (m p) = (multiple-value-list (map-dir dir pos)) collect m do (setf pos p))
2019-12-03T21:52:08Z _death: looks like aoc day 3
2019-12-03T21:52:54Z bbsl: ahh yes I can bind variables when looping. and yes it is aoc3, 3rd day of cl :o
2019-12-03T21:59:16Z _death: maybe you should rethink your interface, however
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2019-12-03T22:11:19Z bbsl: _death: yes I have a feeling that knowing how to use setf propperly would be a big boon. I am borking stuff trying to shoehorn my usual goto of returning tuples
2019-12-03T22:11:49Z phoe: bbsl: in order to learn how SETF works, I'd start with learning how places work and what they are
2019-12-03T22:13:02Z phoe: do you have some sort of grasp on these?
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2019-12-03T22:15:48Z bbsl: phoe: not realy I started reading Practical Common Lisp but I started jumping around after the author went all in on the global `database` state nonsense
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2019-12-03T22:16:37Z Shinmera: ???
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2019-12-03T22:17:11Z Xach: Practical Common Lisp is a good book and you will learn a lot from it if you read it carefully.
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2019-12-03T22:19:40Z Bike: you mean in the "simple database" chapter for CDs or something?
2019-12-03T22:19:57Z Bike: that's just so that it's easy to understand. even says it's global "for simplicity"
2019-12-03T22:20:12Z Bike: and the globalness is kind of irrelevant to the book.
2019-12-03T22:20:46Z phoe: bbsl: the initial chapter is not meant for being understood
2019-12-03T22:21:03Z phoe: the initial chapter is there to give you an overall feeling of how working with the language looks like,.
2019-12-03T22:21:20Z phoe: I've always thought that this is the missing sentence that should have been printed in bold text at the beginning of PCL chapter 2
2019-12-03T22:21:28Z Shinmera: Confucius say: all state is local and global
2019-12-03T22:21:36Z phoe: because people try to read it and assume that they need to follow *EVERYTHING* that this chapter is about
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2019-12-03T22:21:58Z phoe: and the author uses like 50% of all CL taught in PCL to write that database
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2019-12-03T22:23:17Z bbsl: well I lost interest trying to get trough that chapter. Wish there was a better resource like 'learn you a Haskell' but I guess I will pick the book up again in a while
2019-12-03T22:23:57Z phoe: bbsl: start straight from chapter 3
2019-12-03T22:24:27Z phoe: for about a year now, I have consistently been not sure whether chapter 2 of PCL in its current form is not a mistake
2019-12-03T22:24:32Z phoe: precisely for the reason that you mention
2019-12-03T22:25:16Z Shinmera: I liked it.
2019-12-03T22:25:48Z phoe: sure, but not everyone has the background to understand the technical parts and/or the attitude to just sit back and enjoy the ride instead of trying to understand everything that is going on
2019-12-03T22:25:58Z phoe: it's a trap, in a way
2019-12-03T22:27:14Z phoe: ;; Disclosure: I liked that chapter as well.
2019-12-03T22:27:52Z Shinmera: people have preferences. whether they'll like it or not you can't know until they've tried reading it.
2019-12-03T22:27:58Z Shinmera: is my point.
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2019-12-03T22:38:40Z phoe: agreed
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2019-12-03T22:40:58Z bbsl: you should glance at the 'learn you a haskell' or the rust book, both are easyer to read with less fluff imo. compared to those Id say the Practial Common Lisp book is pretty lackluster but I guess they are two different sets of books to be fair
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2019-12-03T22:43:11Z fengshaun: how can I pass <place> designator (e.g. used for setf) to functions? is it only doable with macros?
2019-12-03T22:43:33Z fengshaun: and just leave the place specifier as unevaluated until passed to whatever function/macro that needs it?
2019-12-03T22:43:59Z White_Flame: a place designator is a syntactic thing, so yes it's in the domain of macros if you pass it around
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2019-12-03T22:44:38Z White_Flame: you can also make a getter/setter pair of lambdas compiled to that place
2019-12-03T22:44:45Z White_Flame: if you want to be fully runtime
2019-12-03T22:45:06Z fengshaun: hmm how would I go about that?
2019-12-03T22:45:58Z White_Flame: say for car, (defun car-locative (cons) (list (lambda () (car cons)) (lambda (val) (setf (car cons) val))))
2019-12-03T22:46:36Z White_Flame: (defmacro make-locative (place) (list (lambda () ,place) (lambda (val) (setf ,place val))))
2019-12-03T22:46:50Z White_Flame: call either of the 2 functions to get or set that place
2019-12-03T22:47:17Z fengshaun: ah alright, thanks!
2019-12-03T22:47:31Z fengshaun: I think macro would make more sense, and I need to learn them anyway!
2019-12-03T22:47:37Z White_Flame: yep
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2019-12-03T22:48:59Z phoe: fengshaun: locatives
2019-12-03T22:49:23Z White_Flame: (hence calling the macro "make-locative" ;) )
2019-12-03T22:49:25Z phoe: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-locatives is a library for those
2019-12-03T22:49:33Z White_Flame: although it'd be more powerful than lisp machine locatives, iirc
2019-12-03T22:49:43Z phoe: if you don't want that, just use closures
2019-12-03T22:50:20Z fengshaun: oh that's what it's called
2019-12-03T22:50:45Z White_Flame: a locative used to be a slot pointer
2019-12-03T22:51:06Z White_Flame: where it had its own type and specific get/set functions into data it pointed to
2019-12-03T22:51:24Z fengshaun: what's a slot pointer?
2019-12-03T22:51:34Z White_Flame: but yeah, wrapping a place in a getter/setter function offers the same sort of interface, but you can actually access anything, even bits within a byte
2019-12-03T22:51:35Z fengshaun: my lack of understanding is showing
2019-12-03T22:52:14Z White_Flame: slot = a variable binding location, an element of a struct/class instance/array, the car or cdr of a cons, etc
2019-12-03T22:52:26Z fengshaun: oh ok
2019-12-03T22:53:11Z White_Flame: not knowing where you are with things, #clschool is a bit more newbie friendly, while #lisp assumes a lot more :)
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2019-12-03T22:53:32Z fengshaun: very new, just finished "gentle intro to symbolic computation"
2019-12-03T22:53:35Z fengshaun: thanks
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2019-12-03T23:02:25Z moon-child: what's the best way to do gui in cl, barring lispworks?  I saw eql, which seems to be ecl-specific; commonqt, which is still on qt4; a bunch of interfaces to tk, which apparently some people think is ugly; and a binding to gtk, which apparently looks ugly on macos and windows
2019-12-03T23:02:55Z moon-child: leaning towards the gtk binding
2019-12-03T23:03:27Z moon-child: oh, also considering using abcl and going through swing
2019-12-03T23:03:31Z phoe: qtools
2019-12-03T23:03:40Z phoe: that's what I use, and it's good enough
2019-12-03T23:03:48Z phoe: and yes, that is based on commonqt
2019-12-03T23:03:57Z jasom: tk is only ugly on linux, fwiw
2019-12-03T23:04:09Z jasom: and you can theme it to make it less ugly if you care.
2019-12-03T23:04:23Z moon-child: phoe: yeah.  I don't want to be relying on a framework which isn't going to be maintained in the future
2019-12-03T23:04:45Z moon-child: jasom: really, huh, didn't know that.  Theming like gtk where it's a user-applied theme, or can I make it look good from within the application?
2019-12-03T23:05:01Z moon-child: might actually use tk if I can make it look good
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2019-12-03T23:05:04Z jasom: moon-child: yes to both, but it's not popular enough for many people to have a user-applied theme
2019-12-03T23:05:19Z moon-child: any recommendations there?
2019-12-03T23:05:26Z moon-child: (of tk bindings, that is)
2019-12-03T23:05:29Z phoe: moon-child: really annoying bugs tend to sometimes get backported into qt-libs that commonqt can use
2019-12-03T23:05:38Z phoe: but yes, that's about it - Lisp could really use a qt5 binding
2019-12-03T23:06:12Z moon-child: I wonder if eql could be taken out of ecl?
2019-12-03T23:06:50Z jasom: qt5 doesn't really do C bindings like qt4 did, so that's a big part of it.
2019-12-03T23:07:32Z moon-child: I know someone made qt5 bindings for d, going through a c layer, so it's definitely possible
2019-12-03T23:07:33Z jasom: If you're willing to write your GUI in C++ and export out hooks to call into lisp, you could make a dynamically loadable library that lisp could call.
2019-12-03T23:09:03Z moon-child: I don't think it'd be worth it for me; it's not going to be a ui-heavy app.  Just would be nice to use a nicer lib if it were possible
2019-12-03T23:09:43Z jasom: moon-child: D did it by making a generic DLL with bindings (QtE5Widgets) I suppose we could use that DLL from common lisp.
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2019-12-03T23:10:31Z phoe: jasom: woah
2019-12-03T23:10:36Z phoe: that sounds like the way forward
2019-12-03T23:10:58Z jasom: Of course I don't know if it has foreign bindings or not; it might be D specific (D can generate DLLs)
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2019-12-03T23:11:53Z moon-child: d also is able to call directly into c++, which idk if they're using that at all
2019-12-03T23:12:05Z jasom: moon-child: oh, does it? I didn't realize that.
2019-12-03T23:12:56Z moon-child: yep.  But most people don't use it because there isn't a good automatic binding generator and there are some unimplemented features.  So if they're going through an intermediate dll, there's a good chance they're not using it
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2019-12-03T23:13:37Z jasom: generateAlias("t_v__qp_qp_i_i_i_i_i")  <-- looks like they could be using it, that looks like a C++ mangled name
2019-12-03T23:13:39Z moon-child: (aside: cl could call into qte5's c library, instead of needing to create our own.  Be an annoying dependency but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
2019-12-03T23:15:26Z phoe: moon-child: commonqt does that already
2019-12-03T23:16:32Z moon-child: jasom: nope.  generateAlias() makes an extern(C) function, meaning c ABI and name mangling
2019-12-03T23:17:33Z moon-child: phoe: dependency on a d library is less practical than a dependency on a c|c++ library
2019-12-03T23:17:37Z moon-child: especially since you need one already for qt
2019-12-03T23:18:16Z jasom: commonqt uses the smoke bindings which do not exist for qt5
2019-12-03T23:18:46Z moon-child: ahh
2019-12-03T23:18:50Z moon-child: how does pyqt5 do it, then?
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2019-12-03T23:22:25Z jasom: moon-child: Python extsnsions are usually written in any language that can export C functions; there is a C api that allows manipulation of python objects.
2019-12-03T23:22:38Z jasom: It looks like Go's bindings might be usable: https://github.com/therecipe/qt/blob/master/gui/gui.h
2019-12-03T23:23:10Z jasom: LGPL license though
2019-12-03T23:24:15Z moon-child: This issue https://github.com/ryanmelt/qtbindings/issues/131 mentions an updated version of smoke
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2019-12-03T23:41:30Z Xach: _death: how do normally install libhspell.so?
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2019-12-03T23:57:25Z lottaquestions: Hi all, I have a question about SLDB with SBCL. How does one know which frames can be restarted and which ones cannot? Also, I seem to be losing global variables when I restart frames. I how do I prevent against that?
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2019-12-04T00:20:16Z _death: Xach: I use archlinux, so pacman -S hspell
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2019-12-04T00:24:09Z _death: Xach: I also have it installed on a debian server (apt)
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2019-12-04T00:36:56Z dmiles:  `+
2019-12-04T00:38:05Z dmiles: White_Flame: the real power of the locative is not what it sets.. it what it makes appear in several locations
2019-12-04T00:38:50Z dmiles: well at least just one power of locatives
2019-12-04T00:39:50Z White_Flame: well, that's just effectively shared structure
2019-12-04T00:39:57Z White_Flame: which can be pulled off by a number of things
2019-12-04T00:40:09Z dmiles: yeah i wasn ted to actualyl that it it really is abotu structure sharing
2019-12-04T00:40:28Z White_Flame: if locatives were somehow transparently traversed, then it would have such magic effects, but probably be unworkable
2019-12-04T00:40:44Z dmiles: yeah i wanted to actualyl that it is really is about structure sharing.. to be ablke to have a CDR withotu a CONS
2019-12-04T00:41:33Z White_Flame: yeah, for purely CONS-based stuff, having a cdr iterator function instead of just a data link would be somewhat interesting
2019-12-04T00:42:42Z dmiles: yeah that is pretty neat and important
2019-12-04T00:42:47Z White_Flame: again, the main difference is if diverting pointers or accessors would be followed implicitly, instead of requiring dereferencing them manually/specifically
2019-12-04T00:43:18Z dmiles: ( i was really tryign to say .. "to have structure sharing yet evenb when no structrures exist)
2019-12-04T00:44:41Z dmiles: for exmaple.. imagine a symbol value exists in 5 places at once
2019-12-04T00:44:54Z dmiles: all you have to do is change the symbol value
2019-12-04T00:45:25Z White_Flame: was that implemented with locatives though?
2019-12-04T00:45:42Z dmiles: since all 6 locations are pointing to the same memloc
2019-12-04T00:46:11Z dmiles: so if you try to set any of the 6 the memloc gets updated
2019-12-04T00:46:40Z dmiles: in lisp machine and early ECL it was
2019-12-04T00:46:54Z White_Flame: ok, it's been a while since I was in my emlation stuff
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2019-12-04T00:47:04Z White_Flame: but I do remember symbol-value sharing
2019-12-04T00:47:08Z White_Flame: as a general feature
2019-12-04T00:47:20Z dmiles: ELC when it was ECoLisp
2019-12-04T00:48:13Z dmiles: all the locative stuff can be ealily emulated nowadays... just much slower
2019-12-04T00:48:22Z dmiles: easily*
2019-12-04T00:48:25Z White_Flame: yep
2019-12-04T00:48:34Z White_Flame: (although faster than VLM code)
2019-12-04T00:48:57Z dmiles: since nowadays you have to find all 5 places and trrhe symbol value and if any one is set you have to go and update the otehr 5
2019-12-04T00:49:11Z White_Flame: I just used cons cells for a poor man's locative container
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2019-12-04T00:49:18Z White_Flame: each symbol-value would hold a ref to the cons cell
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2019-12-04T00:49:21Z White_Flame: share the CAR
2019-12-04T00:50:04Z dmiles: yeah
2019-12-04T00:50:05Z White_Flame: while it "wastes a slot" it's less usually memory footprint & code than a 1-element structure or array
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2019-12-04T00:50:36Z dmiles: what ECL used to have ia as brtilliant dynanmic extent on locatives
2019-12-04T00:51:19Z dmiles: what ECL used to have is a brilliant dynanmic extent on locatives that merely could forget about them or not
2019-12-04T00:52:01Z dmiles: (managed by WAM)
2019-12-04T00:52:44Z dmiles: though its funny EcoLisp didnt have wam.. but as locatives got dropped WAM got added
2019-12-04T00:53:20Z dmiles: it been a bit cooler had it had both at the same time
2019-12-04T00:54:57Z dmiles: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.49.5446&rep=rep1&type=pdf
2019-12-04T00:55:48Z dmiles: ah ok it did retain LOCATIVE while having a Prolog-WAM
2019-12-04T00:55:57Z dmiles: (accordign to that PDF)
2019-12-04T00:58:48Z dmiles: section 8 was how it used Locative as the prolog var
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2019-12-04T01:28:12Z Xach: _death: i can't find it on my debian 10 server
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2019-12-04T01:40:31Z akoana: Xach: probably it is included in the hspell package (I did apt-get source --download-only hspell, there is a libhspell.c in the orig.tar.gz)
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2019-12-04T01:55:30Z akoana: although it seems to have only the static lib version...
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2019-12-04T04:05:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-12-04T04:05:28Z moon-child: hi beach
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2019-12-04T04:17:38Z beach: moon-child: What kind of GUIs are you planning to make?
2019-12-04T04:17:50Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning beach!
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2019-12-04T04:48:55Z moon-child: beach: I was gonna make an editor
2019-12-04T04:50:25Z beach: For that kind of stuff, McCLIM is ideal, provided you want to program in Common Lisp of course.
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2019-12-04T04:51:28Z beach: What are some of the characteristics of this editor?  What kind of stuff will the user edit?
2019-12-04T04:51:33Z moon-child: I looked at that.  It seems to only work under x, though?
2019-12-04T04:51:49Z moon-child: I found a 'backends' dir, and it had clx, clx-fb, and a bunch of irrelevant junk
2019-12-04T04:51:52Z beach: I think X11 is the only backend we have right now, yes.
2019-12-04T04:52:15Z moon-child: beach: I recently started using emacs, and while I am impressed, I want to a) do better; b) make my own
2019-12-04T04:52:21Z beach: OK.
2019-12-04T04:52:29Z moon-child: (longtime vim user previously)
2019-12-04T04:52:34Z beach: What kind of backend do you need?
2019-12-04T04:52:50Z moon-child: something that will work cross-platforms.  If there are plans to add other backends 's probably fine
2019-12-04T04:53:38Z beach: There are plans for other backends.  And you may want to consider writing one that you need.  You will save time by implementing your editor in Common Lisp, and you will help others who need that backend.
2019-12-04T04:54:16Z beach: Do you have much experience implementing editors?
2019-12-04T04:54:17Z moon-child: the editor was always going to be in cl, the question was just what the graphics backend would be
2019-12-04T04:54:34Z beach: That's a big "just" right there.
2019-12-04T04:54:40Z moon-child: fair enough
2019-12-04T04:54:51Z moon-child: I made a code-golfed editor in 2kb of c a while back.  That's it
2019-12-04T04:55:02Z beach: When you start mixing languages where some have manual memory management, you are in for a debugging nightmare.
2019-12-04T04:55:51Z moon-child: believe me, I know it.  I wrote an embedding thingy for perl6 and getting it to talk to c well was awful
2019-12-04T04:56:21Z beach: OK, then you should know that I have plans for an editor for Common Lisp code.  I already wrote (first) Climacs, and I have a design for Second Climacs.  And loke is working on one as well.  So if you need advice, just ask.
2019-12-04T04:56:56Z moon-child: thank you!
2019-12-04T04:56:59Z moon-child: have links to those?
2019-12-04T04:57:49Z LdBeth: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Second-Climacs
2019-12-04T04:57:50Z beach: I do, but I don't remember by heart.  You can look at Second Climacs, but I advise against trying it.
2019-12-04T04:57:58Z beach: Ah, thanks!
2019-12-04T04:58:26Z beach: I think (first) Climacs is in Quicklisp, but I don't remember where it is taken from.
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2019-12-04T04:59:59Z beach: moon-child: Because of item b above, I am not suggesting a collaboration.  But I can give advice.
2019-12-04T05:00:16Z beach: And I have a library for representing the buffer.  It is called Cluffer.
2019-12-04T05:00:38Z beach: It is tested and documented.
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2019-12-04T05:01:43Z moon-child: probably don't want to collab anyway.  I have different goals to emacs; what I want to make is a development of editors informed by my experience with emacs, but which is probably closer to vim in the end, which seems different from what y'all are making
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2019-12-04T05:02:18Z moon-child: I saw cluffer, was thinking of using it.  Also looking at the backend interface for clim to see how much work a w32 port would be
2019-12-04T05:03:07Z beach: The editor I am planning would not be designed around key bindings.  The essential design would about parsing buffer contents incrementally and displaying information to the user.  Key bindings is just a minor thing.
2019-12-04T05:03:43Z moon-child: base of my plan is automation
2019-12-04T05:04:04Z moon-child: with more granular levels of temporality than just permanent(-ish) config files and transient macros
2019-12-04T05:04:26Z beach: Sounds good.  Good luck.
2019-12-04T05:04:29Z moon-child: thanks
2019-12-04T05:04:30Z moon-child: you too!
2019-12-04T05:05:01Z beach: Thanks.  I am currently busy with other stuff, but I'll get back to it at some point.
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2019-12-04T09:05:25Z _death: Xach: hmm now that akoana mentioned it I do remember something about static lib only.. maybe I compiled it on the server to get the dynamic library
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2019-12-04T11:33:13Z flip214: Shinmera: ELS2020 will be €150 again
2019-12-04T11:33:15Z flip214: ?
2019-12-04T11:33:23Z Shinmera: I don't know.
2019-12-04T11:33:41Z Shinmera: I'm only local chair, pricing is not my domain.
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2019-12-04T11:34:58Z flip214: well, it's a good first guess, right? Who else should I ask?
2019-12-04T11:35:07Z Shinmera: Didier
2019-12-04T11:35:17Z flip214: thanks!
2019-12-04T11:35:29Z Shinmera: The pricing should be similar to previous ELSes that were not co-located
2019-12-04T11:35:35Z Shinmera: (so a bit cheaper than co-located ones)
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2019-12-04T13:55:48Z Xach: _death: drat
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2019-12-04T13:57:41Z phoe: Xach: seems like a .so is available, but not in the debian repositories
2019-12-04T13:58:36Z phoe: but debian doesn't provide a .so, only an .a library - see https://packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/hspell/filelist
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2019-12-04T13:59:53Z phoe: this means that either someone asks the debian maintainers to include a .so in the package or that the Lisp system will have to provide a .so on its own
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2019-12-04T14:00:52Z Xach: or, as i sometimes do, i have to build and install it myself to complete the build
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2019-12-04T14:01:17Z phoe: that is possible
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2019-12-04T14:01:36Z phoe: but then the system won't work on anyone else's system that has stock debian
2019-12-04T14:01:40Z phoe: if that is a non-issue, then things are fine
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2019-12-04T14:02:53Z Xach: it will work if people also compile and install the library
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2019-12-04T14:04:02Z dlowe: I really love the emacs daemon/client setup and if I were going to write an editor, it would have that design from the beginning
2019-12-04T14:04:43Z phoe: Xach: that kinda works, but then (ql:quickload :hspell) won't work out of the box
2019-12-04T14:04:46Z phoe: or is this one a non-issue
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2019-12-04T14:05:09Z dlowe: so it could have terminal and gui clients as separate projects, potentially
2019-12-04T14:05:44Z Xach: when i was a boy we downloaded cpio files from freshmeat gopher
2019-12-04T14:06:02Z Xach: phoe: many things don't work out of the box, it is not an issue
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2019-12-04T14:07:15Z dlowe: heh, I didn't know freshmeat had a gopher interface
2019-12-04T14:07:29Z antoszka: still working?
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2019-12-04T14:12:27Z Xach: maybe it didn't, my mind is so old it has turned partially to oatmeal
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2019-12-04T14:21:26Z _death: let lisp provide the fingernail clippings and you're set
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2019-12-04T15:17:38Z kmeow: How do I use libraries (without quicklisp) in Common Lisp? I've downloaded one but don't know what to do, exactly, in the script I'm trying to use it with
2019-12-04T15:19:08Z Xach: kmeow: you need to load asdf, put the libraries somewhere asdf knows about (or you teach asdf about), then use (asdf:load-system "the library name"), and then you can work with the library's functions and data and such.
2019-12-04T15:19:30Z phoe: kmeow: Quicklisp uses ASDF underneath to actually load libraries into Lisp.
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2019-12-04T15:20:06Z kmeow: hm, alright. I guess I'm stuck on the teaching asdf about them part
2019-12-04T15:20:26Z Xach: I think asdf automagically knows about libraries in the ~/common-lisp/ directory but I'm not 100% sure
2019-12-04T15:20:40Z kmeow: ahhh
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2019-12-04T15:24:44Z pfdietz: I just put these things in quicklisp/local-projects/ and let ql load them.  You may need to call (ql:register-local-projects) again.
2019-12-04T15:25:00Z Xach: pfdietz: "no quicklisp" was stipulated
2019-12-04T15:25:08Z pfdietz: Ah, ok.
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2019-12-04T15:26:54Z kmeow: I'm mostly trying to figure out how to have all the scripts in one directory all together, so it might be redistributed
2019-12-04T15:27:37Z kmeow: I've been reading the asdf manual for a couple hours now I guess
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2019-12-04T15:29:07Z Xach: kmeow: I feel that's generally going against the grain of Common Lisp
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2019-12-04T15:29:48Z Xach: kmeow: but with that use-case in mind, quicklisp can bundle up a bunch of libraries (even non-quicklisp libraries) and make them loadable by loading a little loader script that omits quicklisp
2019-12-04T15:30:17Z Xach: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/bundles.html has some info about it
2019-12-04T15:30:30Z kmeow: hm, okay
2019-12-04T15:32:06Z d4ryus: Xach: I guess the statement "Bundling works only for systems available through Quicklisp." is obsolete then?
2019-12-04T15:32:50Z Xach: d4ryus: i agree it's a little confusing, but the meaning there is that it can only automatically bundle quicklisp-provided systems, and other systems have to be copied into the bundle's local-projects directory.
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2019-12-04T15:34:48Z d4ryus: Xach: ah, i see. Thats pretty neat, i was looking for a tool doing exactly that :)
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2019-12-04T15:36:10Z mercourisj: Does Quicklisp do any handling of external dependencies? Eg. installing shared libraries? Has it been discussed?
2019-12-04T15:37:39Z Xach: mercourisj: it does not. i feel the problem is very big with the diversity of platforms that support Common Lisp.
2019-12-04T15:38:04Z mercourisj: the problem is in fact very large
2019-12-04T15:38:12Z mercourisj: I have been thinking about it with regards to the context of Next
2019-12-04T15:38:23Z phoe: mercourisj: it is left for each system to do and define
2019-12-04T15:38:30Z mercourisj: I'm thinking about just adding some sort of abstraction layer to install using the user's package manager
2019-12-04T15:38:37Z phoe: some of those compile C code, some of those pull precompiled binaries from the network
2019-12-04T15:38:56Z phoe: that's done by programming ASDF
2019-12-04T15:38:58Z mercourisj: phoe: That puts a huge burden on the author
2019-12-04T15:39:35Z phoe: mercourisj: what's the other option that you propose
2019-12-04T15:39:51Z mercourisj: I just said it above
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2019-12-04T15:39:56Z mercourisj: a universal interface to package managers
2019-12-04T15:40:04Z Xach: mercourisj: something like that exists already
2019-12-04T15:40:06Z mercourisj: it has been done before, it is not a fantastic solution, but it works *OK* without much work
2019-12-04T15:40:15Z mercourisj: does it exist for Common Lisp already?
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2019-12-04T15:40:28Z kmeow: the quicklisp bundle seems to have worked for me
2019-12-04T15:40:32Z Xach: There is a CL project that is an interface to package managers. I don't know how universal it is.
2019-12-04T15:40:36Z Xach: kmeow: glad to hear it.
2019-12-04T15:40:43Z kmeow: ty
2019-12-04T15:40:50Z mercourisj: Xach: do you happen to know the name of it?
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2019-12-04T15:41:09Z Xach: mercourisj: i think it is http://quickdocs.org/trivial-package-manager/
2019-12-04T15:41:28Z mercourisj: ah, that's perfect!
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2019-12-04T15:41:38Z Xach: I don't like it a ton because it presumes a user is allowed to install stuff from the package manager, when that's not always the case.
2019-12-04T15:41:42Z mercourisj: as an aside, I don't like all of these 'trivial-x' named projects
2019-12-04T15:41:59Z mercourisj: yeah depending on who they are running the package manager as...
2019-12-04T15:42:06Z Xach: I don't like things named "quick*" that are not part of the quicklisp project, but what can ya do.
2019-12-04T15:42:18Z phoe: running lisp as superuser is kinda asking for trouble
2019-12-04T15:42:19Z Xach: i screwed that up myself
2019-12-04T15:42:30Z Xach: phoe: yes - it might become sentient and take over!!
2019-12-04T15:42:31Z mercourisj: why is it called quicklisp anyways?
2019-12-04T15:42:51Z Xach: mercourisj: because it makes it quick to use lisp stuff
2019-12-04T15:42:51Z mercourisj: missed opportunity to call it LPM and inherit the great legacy of NPM
2019-12-04T15:42:57Z Xach: quicklisp predates npm
2019-12-04T15:42:58Z phoe: > great
2019-12-04T15:43:15Z mercourisj: name change, livescript->javascript, quicklisp->lpm
2019-12-04T15:43:23Z phoe: mercourisj: we already have everything great that NPM contains, namely (ql:quickload :trivial-left-pad)
2019-12-04T15:43:33Z Xach: I can't remember the other candidate names. I did know I didn't want something that was hard to pronounce or disgusting.
2019-12-04T15:43:35Z mercourisj: ah, one of my favorite packages, super useful
2019-12-04T15:43:56Z Xach: or confusing
2019-12-04T15:44:07Z Xach: asdf-install led to a ton of confusion about what was doing what, for example
2019-12-04T15:44:28Z Xach: mudballs, another project installation manager, is kind of gross
2019-12-04T15:44:35Z Xach: clornucopia is hard to say
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2019-12-04T15:45:09Z mercourisj: People tend to name things very stupidly
2019-12-04T15:45:13Z Xach: What was the one that pulled everything from git all the time?
2019-12-04T15:45:15Z mercourisj: in many ways, Next is also a very stupid name...
2019-12-04T15:45:17Z Xach: The name escapes me
2019-12-04T15:45:26Z mercourisj: 'git pull'?
2019-12-04T15:45:57Z phoe: next is obviously the new filesystem format based on ext, the acronym comes from Next EXT
2019-12-04T15:46:06Z Xach: mercourisj: there was a lisp project that predated quicklisp that fetched the entire universe of libraries from git to local directories. so you could have an entire hackable universe at your fingertips, and push and pull and such.
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2019-12-04T15:46:36Z Xach: this was in an interesting time when core libraries would be hosted on peoples' personal git repo and that would be unavailable sometimes
2019-12-04T15:46:39Z mercourisj: phoe: Yes, exactly :-D
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2019-12-04T15:46:48Z phoe: Xach: so basically an eager-by-default quicklisp
2019-12-04T15:47:00Z phoe: also fully decentralized
2019-12-04T15:47:06Z mercourisj: these days I want updates before the user even types C-x C-s
2019-12-04T15:47:07Z Xach: phoe: sort of, and without the proxy step of hosting everything on a pretty reliable CDN/file store
2019-12-04T15:47:28Z Xach: i recall outages regularly breaking the world
2019-12-04T15:47:40Z phoe: yes, that is imaginable
2019-12-04T15:48:03Z Xach: quicklisp is a reaction to a world that is so distant now i can't remember the names of the pieces :~(
2019-12-04T15:48:45Z Xach: lukego: well, you would know, what was the lisp thing that had metadata for checking out everything from git?
2019-12-04T15:49:08Z Xach: it was old enough that it involved mercurial and svn and other stuff too.
2019-12-04T15:49:21Z Xach: darcs also loomed large
2019-12-04T15:51:30Z Xach: ah yes, https://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/
2019-12-04T15:52:39Z edgar-rft always thought that quicklisp was made from bisquick cookies
2019-12-04T15:52:50Z Xach: a common misconception
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2019-12-04T15:59:28Z Cymew: It was a short while when darcs was the big thing for lisp, and nothing much else. I remember that now. How nice that has passed.
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2019-12-04T16:02:48Z Xach: everyone using the same thing has its ups and downs
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2019-12-04T16:11:00Z dlowe: well, there was asdf-install, too, which went to a wiki and downloaded whatever it found there
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2019-12-04T16:13:07Z _death: biglisp could be world-yyyymmdd.tar.gz containing all libraries
2019-12-04T16:15:28Z phoe: basically a full quicklisp dist in a single archive
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2019-12-04T16:16:25Z _death: or a git repo with submodule for each library
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2019-12-04T16:21:25Z phoe: oh god imagine syncing this
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2019-12-04T18:52:17Z galdor: Xach: while I appreciate the usefulness of the same thing for everyone, I find it a deal breaker for various use cases, such as the quite simple "I had to patch lib X, and now I want my colleagues to be able to use it automatically"
2019-12-04T18:52:36Z galdor: just being able to create custom quicklisp distributions would help
2019-12-04T18:52:44Z galdor: that and having quicklisp bundled with CL implementations
2019-12-04T18:52:56Z galdor: I had recent occasions where I could have sneak CL for some non-critical tools
2019-12-04T18:53:26Z galdor: but not being able to make it just work for my colleagues without writing crazy scripts is a deal breaker
2019-12-04T18:54:14Z galdor: hell, just not having to clone some of my patched stuff and make sure to update it synchronously between laptop and desktop would be nice
2019-12-04T18:54:20Z dlowe: Xach has encouraged people to write new quicklisp distributions
2019-12-04T18:54:51Z dlowe: so far no one has taken him up on it
2019-12-04T18:54:57Z galdor: is there some documentation of the subject ? last time I checked I seem to remember it was not possible, I may have missed something
2019-12-04T18:55:09Z Xach: It's possible, but there's no docs to help it along, and that is bad.
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2019-12-04T18:55:11Z dlowe: all things are possible with enough code
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2019-12-04T18:55:16Z dlowe: and docs
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2019-12-04T18:56:00Z Xach: galdor: i find there are some drawbacks to including quicklisp with implementations
2019-12-04T18:56:22Z Xach: I dislike the situation of "are you using clozure quicklisp or scieneer quicklisp?" and how it affects providing support
2019-12-04T18:56:55Z galdor: yeah it makes sense
2019-12-04T18:57:49Z galdor: I'm playing with the idea of writing a rebar3-like tool, but it is really not that simple
2019-12-04T18:58:12Z Xach: i have not used it, but my understanding of qlot suggests that it aims to make it possible to draw exact versions of libraries from a variety of sources, including but not limited to quicklisp
2019-12-04T18:58:20Z galdor: especially since most systems do not care about proper versioning and dependency constraints
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2019-12-04T18:58:43Z Xach: oh, this is a rerun of our earlier discussion somewhat
2019-12-04T18:58:48Z galdor: yup
2019-12-04T18:58:58Z galdor: I cannot find qlot with google, who knows I may find it again sometime
2019-12-04T18:59:22Z galdor: oh it works with verbatim search, https://github.com/fukamachi/qlot
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2019-12-04T19:00:14Z Xach: that's the project
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2019-12-04T19:32:45Z boeg: If I have a string string "Hello", and I want a list ("H" "ello"), what's the easiest way? I'm thinking something like (list (car string) (cdr string))
2019-12-04T19:33:09Z jasom: is this a homework assignment?  Someone asked the same thing yesterday...
2019-12-04T19:33:35Z jasom: FWIW, this will do it: (list (char string 0) (subseq string 1))
2019-12-04T19:34:39Z boeg: Not in my case, I'm just trying to see if I can find a less manual way to split strings composed of a letter followed by numbers for advent of code. I'm doing advent of code this year to learn common lisp
2019-12-04T19:34:54Z jasom: ah advent of code, that makes sense then
2019-12-04T19:34:56Z boeg: thanks
2019-12-04T19:35:07Z jasom: oh what I said was wrong
2019-12-04T19:35:17Z jasom: you it will give you (#\H "ello")
2019-12-04T19:35:24Z jasom: so (list (subseq string 0 1) (subseq string 1))
2019-12-04T19:35:32Z _death: boeg: you may notice that many functions, e.g. parse-integer, take :start/:end arguments
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2019-12-04T19:38:35Z boeg: _death: what are you thinking? In this case, wouldn't `(list (subseq string 0 1) (parse-integer (subseq string 1)))` makes sense?
2019-12-04T19:38:42Z boeg: jasom: ah, thanks!
2019-12-04T19:39:20Z jasom: boeg: (list (subseq string 0 1) (parse-integer string :start 1))
2019-12-04T19:39:31Z jasom: boeg: saves a copy of the string
2019-12-04T19:39:42Z boeg: jasom: ah, now I get what _death meant. Smart
2019-12-04T19:40:03Z jasom: strings are mutable in lisp, so proper safe slicing requires a copy.
2019-12-04T19:40:27Z boeg: good to know
2019-12-04T19:42:11Z _death: also, "making" a character may be more efficient than making a string
2019-12-04T19:43:42Z boeg: I'm not optimizing yet, but i'll keep it in mind, thank you :)
2019-12-04T19:44:15Z _death: characters also can be compared using EQL, which many operators use as default for comparison
2019-12-04T19:44:23Z White_Flame: and characters are immutable and non-composite
2019-12-04T19:44:51Z boeg: lots of info, thank you
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2019-12-04T19:45:41Z _death: (strings too can be compared using EQL, but that may not do what you expect)
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2019-12-04T19:49:42Z jasom: _death: at least in most lisp implementations it's more obviously wrong to compare strings with EQL than the python equivalent (python interns strings that are valid identifiers under a certain length, so comparing with "is" sometimes works and sometimes doesn't)
2019-12-04T19:51:17Z _death: jasom: ouch
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2019-12-04T19:58:28Z _death: jasom: on the other hand the default python comparison operator would "work" with strings
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2019-12-04T20:19:23Z parisienne: sup my lispers
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2019-12-04T20:19:55Z jasom: How am I supposed to sup with out any food?
2019-12-04T20:20:21Z Bike: breatharianism
2019-12-04T20:20:31Z Bike: or you eat the lispers
2019-12-04T20:20:51Z parisienne: ou snap. Is there a way to send food over p2p?
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2019-12-04T20:22:26Z jasom: just convert bites to bytes
2019-12-04T20:26:30Z parisienne: maybe I'll just send u some nibbles if the bytes are too big
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2019-12-04T21:01:20Z copec: What is happening in the language space in Racket that isn't in CL?
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2019-12-04T21:06:57Z pfdietz: FTP, Food Transfer Protocol
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2019-12-04T21:08:01Z Xach: copec: I don't think this is a good place for that kind of differential discussion
2019-12-04T21:08:47Z copec: In that it is OT, or that there isn't sufficient knowledge and diversity of opinion?
2019-12-04T21:09:33Z Shinmera: both
2019-12-04T21:09:52Z Xach: copec: both - this isn't a good place to center a discussion about what is happening with racket
2019-12-04T21:10:07Z Xach: but i get the impression that few people here keep up with racket and could talk about it in a CL-centric way
2019-12-04T21:10:52Z copec: I'm not switching from my own CL use. I'm just interesting in thinking about and comparing what other languages do
2019-12-04T21:14:44Z aeth: ##lisp is for the Lisp family of languages so you might get a better/fairer comparison than #lisp or #racket would give you.
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2019-12-04T21:29:45Z pjb: copec: OT may go to #lispcafe
2019-12-04T21:30:08Z jasom: copec: FWIW, something like #lang could be implemented on top of CL's reader macros, and it would be interesting to see.
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2019-12-04T21:47:23Z stylewarning: Is Postmodern still a functioning, usable library for postgres?
2019-12-04T21:47:41Z Shinmera: yes
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2019-12-04T21:48:05Z no-defun-allowed: Last time I checked, yes.
2019-12-04T21:48:17Z Shinmera: if it didn't none of my websites would work anymore
2019-12-04T21:48:20Z no-defun-allowed: I can't see why it wouldn't be, did the protocol change or something?
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2019-12-04T21:48:47Z stylewarning: My concern is the usual "the website was last updated in 2012" deal
2019-12-04T21:49:02Z Shinmera: why is that a concern
2019-12-04T21:49:12Z phoe: stylewarning: very much yes
2019-12-04T21:49:20Z no-defun-allowed: Still works. (This is CL after all)
2019-12-04T21:49:25Z phoe: postmodern is still alive and kicking, I remember contributing to it earlier this year
2019-12-04T21:49:38Z stylewarning: Shinmera: because postgres has been through 3 major version upgrades since 2012
2019-12-04T21:49:48Z jasom: stylewarning: it's quite widely used and recommended.
2019-12-04T21:49:59Z stylewarning: that's great, very happy to hear that news
2019-12-04T21:50:07Z jasom: last commit was 4 days ago
2019-12-04T21:50:10Z Shinmera: stylewarning: postgres is not known for breaking compatibility
2019-12-04T21:50:40Z phoe: also https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/commits/master is active
2019-12-04T21:51:10Z stylewarning: Shinmera: I doubt it would, especially being a database, but the spookiest of things can happen in 8 years. (:
2019-12-04T21:52:18Z Shinmera: postmodern alone is why I would recommend CL people to use postgres over any other rdbms
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2019-12-04T21:52:52Z pjb: stylewarning: I don't know about postmodern. I know that I need to patch pg to be able to run with postgresql 9.6, 10 or 11…
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2019-12-04T23:24:29Z didi: I just noticed `defpackage' separates each option in lists, but `defsystem' doesn't. Coincidence?
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2019-12-04T23:27:04Z pjb: didi: wouldn't that be the opposite of coincidence?
2019-12-04T23:27:23Z pjb: didi: defsystem syntax can be parsed with destructuring-bind or defmacro…
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2019-12-04T23:28:33Z pjb: (defmacro defsystem (name &key description author maintainer licence version proeprties depends-on …) …)
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2019-12-04T23:29:08Z didi: :-)
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2019-12-05T00:18:24Z jasom: We were talking about qt5 bindings.  The Go QT bindings has a tool that auto-generates extern "C" functions for everything in QT.  They can't be used directly though because all callbacks are in autogenerated go files that export a C header through cgo.  However, that could be used as a basis for a lisp qt5 generator certainly.
2019-12-05T00:20:35Z jasom: It seems to do so by parsing the xml API documentation
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2019-12-05T00:50:30Z p_l: jasom: most sensible generators for Qt5 use libclang
2019-12-05T00:50:46Z p_l: especially since you can reuse any preprocessing done by Qt
2019-12-05T00:51:13Z p_l: unfortunately, all of them are also tightly bound to their target language
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2019-12-05T01:03:39Z jasom: p_l: which Qt5 bindings use libclang to generate the interface?  Most of the bindings seemed to be quick/QML only.
2019-12-05T01:04:05Z p_l: jasom: pretty much all that don't use QML or Quick, for example Python one
2019-12-05T01:04:21Z p_l: especially that third party python one, not the official one
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2019-12-05T05:30:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-05T05:32:15Z Josh_2: Mornin beach
2019-12-05T05:33:08Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning beach!
2019-12-05T05:33:15Z patrixl: morning beach
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2019-12-05T06:29:11Z elderK: Hey all
2019-12-05T06:31:37Z beach: Hello elderK.
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2019-12-05T06:35:39Z elderK: How's it going? Gosh, it's been a long time since I was last here.
2019-12-05T06:37:22Z beach: Me?  I'm doing fine.  Progress is slow but steady.  But I don't think that what I do is representative for #lisp.
2019-12-05T06:37:38Z beach: How about you?
2019-12-05T06:41:14Z ck_: What is representative for #lisp?
2019-12-05T06:42:20Z White_Flame: no progress, because people are arguing edge cases of the CLHS
2019-12-05T06:42:27Z elderK: I'm not quite sure how things are. They could be a lot worse, so at least there's that.
2019-12-05T06:42:31Z elderK: White_Flame: Heh :D
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2019-12-05T06:45:07Z beach: elderK: Ouch.  Doesn't sound great.
2019-12-05T06:46:24Z beach: ck_: A lot of bickering about elementary software-engineering ideas is one thing.
2019-12-05T06:47:03Z beach: ck_: And problems due to the use of foreign code seems to be a popular topic as well.
2019-12-05T06:47:19Z drmeister: Damn - ASDF appears to require fasl files to be files and doesn't allow them to be directories.
2019-12-05T06:48:13Z beach: ck_: A lot of discussion about which of several GUI libraries written in C or C++ to choose, is another.
2019-12-05T06:48:21Z elderK: beach: The problem might be with me. I'm not sure yet. I actually came here to ask advice: What have you guys done in the past when you needed to talk to like, I guess what you'd call an older-role-model. Someone who knows you, but isn't *too* close to you. Someone who's opinion you can trust, without it be influenced by the stuff you're talking about? You might say, talk to a senior colleague. That was my
2019-12-05T06:48:23Z elderK: first idea, but I haven't yet established strong enough connections with my colleagues to make that sufficiently safe.
2019-12-05T06:48:37Z elderK: Sorry about double message. Seems Weehat breaks large messages.
2019-12-05T06:49:19Z ck_: beach: oh, the last point I hadn't witnessed yet.  But you make it sound quite bleak in general.
2019-12-05T06:50:41Z beach: ck_: Nah, it is no worse than usual.
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2019-12-05T06:52:39Z beach: elderK: That seems quite off topic.  Maybe try #lispcafe.  I don't go there myself because I don't have time for random chat.
2019-12-05T06:52:58Z elderK: beach: Thanks beach :)
2019-12-05T06:54:08Z beach: ck_: But as I realized a few weeks ago, it's a perfect example of the prisoners dilemma.
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2019-12-05T06:56:41Z beach: ck_: Ideally, Lispers should collaborate to fill the gaps in our collection of libraries and applications, but instead, everyone prefers to work on an immediate individual problem that needs to be solved.  As a result, the collective effort is much higher than it could be.
2019-12-05T06:57:11Z beach: ck_: I am not blaming anyone.  Just observing a fact.
2019-12-05T06:58:20Z ck_: beach: well like I said in an earlier conversation -- "I'm trying"
2019-12-05T06:58:44Z beach: Absolutely.  And that's good!  Thanks again!
2019-12-05T06:59:58Z ck_: I meant that as an attempt to nudge the focus towards doing that again. I know this channel isn't fertile ground for that, but one can hope.
2019-12-05T07:00:35Z beach: Ah, I see, yes.
2019-12-05T07:01:34Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: you're better off going the JVM route: make your fasl a zip-encoded file which you can treat as a virtual file-system
2019-12-05T07:02:38Z drmeister: fe[nl]ix: That's a PITA - the problem is dsymutil on macOS.
2019-12-05T07:03:36Z fe[nl]ix: what do they do ?
2019-12-05T07:03:48Z drmeister: Could I generate a fasl inside of a zip-encoded file and then run dsymutil on it to generate a .dwarf file that also goes into the zip-encoded file?
2019-12-05T07:04:03Z drmeister: Oy vey - don't get me started.  It's a shit show.
2019-12-05T07:05:28Z fe[nl]ix: so you essentially want to post-process fasl files, of some sort ?
2019-12-05T07:07:01Z lukego: Xach: Yeah clbuild. I think that worked as an "executable problem statement" i.e. a really quick and easy way to confirm that the latest version of everything is broken and incompatible. In those days I'd regularly "sit down to try some McCLIM hacking" and several hours later still be fighting with installation problems. Quicklisp is a hell of a better experience B)
2019-12-05T07:07:26Z drmeister: Yeah - and I get it.  We talked about zip files.  We thought directories would be less trouble.   Now I'm not so sure.
2019-12-05T07:07:42Z fe[nl]ix: why not do all that while generating the fasl itself ?
2019-12-05T07:07:51Z drmeister: Do what?
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2019-12-05T07:08:30Z fe[nl]ix: have compile-file output various intermediate files to a temp directory, call dsymutil, then package verything up in a zip fasl
2019-12-05T07:08:45Z fe[nl]ix: there's something I'm missing here
2019-12-05T07:08:53Z drmeister: We are having a problem with multiple processes compiling the same asdf systems and clobbering each others builds.  We need fasl generation to be atomic - so we are going to use rename-file as the atomic operation.
2019-12-05T07:09:09Z drmeister: The problem on macOS is building the fasl and debug info is two steps, not atomic.
2019-12-05T07:09:32Z drmeister: Yeah we could do that.
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2019-12-05T07:09:46Z drmeister: PITA
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2019-12-05T07:10:25Z fe[nl]ix: of course, as long as each compile-file a) creates a uniquely named temp dir b) creates the fasl in there and c) commits this "transaction" by an atomic rename-file
2019-12-05T07:10:43Z drmeister: We can do that.
2019-12-05T07:10:49Z drmeister: I'll need a zip library I guess.
2019-12-05T07:11:02Z fe[nl]ix: this is a standard way of operating
2019-12-05T07:11:11Z fe[nl]ix: you can even create a zip with compression level 0
2019-12-05T07:11:23Z fe[nl]ix: which means the files are simply appended
2019-12-05T07:12:02Z fe[nl]ix: if you do things right and ensure page-level alignment, you could even mmap directly from the zip file
2019-12-05T07:12:07Z drmeister: Sorry - I'm a bit disgusted at the moment.  It's not just this - we found a bug in ld64 that is causing us grief with our compile-file-parallel.
2019-12-05T07:12:28Z fe[nl]ix: without copying the code into anonymous pages
2019-12-05T07:12:37Z drmeister: Things will look better in the morning.
2019-12-05T07:13:17Z fe[nl]ix: sounds good
2019-12-05T07:13:34Z fe[nl]ix: I'm going to sleep as well
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2019-12-05T08:03:28Z earl-ducaine: I was just reading the SBCL style guide and noted that package prefexes were discouraged. Not a strong prohibition but I was surprised by it.
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2019-12-05T08:03:58Z earl-ducaine: In my own code I tend to use them quite a bit, i.e. it makes it clear that a set of functons are from the same package and probably are documented there in how they work together.
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2019-12-05T08:04:14Z pjb: earl-ducaine: package names can be quite long.
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2019-12-05T08:04:36Z earl-ducaine: I'm curious what other's practice is.
2019-12-05T08:04:47Z pjb: earl-ducaine: when you are in the context of a local development, where you control the name of all the packages, you can choose short package names and be happy with qualified symbols.
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2019-12-05T08:05:20Z earl-ducaine: I've noticed that there are a number of aspects to using package prefixes that are problematic.
2019-12-05T08:05:47Z pjb: earl-ducaine: but in the context of internet based development, where you use hundreds of libraries and dependencies, package names need to be unique and long, such as com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.array etc, and then using qualified symbols is bad for readability.
2019-12-05T08:06:17Z pjb: earl-ducaine: note that it's the same problem with nicknames.  If you want to publish your code, you cannot use shortnicknames.
2019-12-05T08:06:36Z pjb: earl-ducaine: Only the end-user that won't be publishing his code, can add short nicknames and use them.
2019-12-05T08:07:38Z pjb: earl-ducaine: one solution would be package-local nicknames or relative package names, but there's no complete portable solution yet.
2019-12-05T08:08:16Z pjb: earl-ducaine: have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.relative-package
2019-12-05T08:09:57Z earl-ducaine: Iterate is also a problematic example, it relies on a number of symbols being imported that are neither fuctions, macros or specials. Trying to prefix every one makes it an unreadable mess.
2019-12-05T08:10:00Z beach: earl-ducaine: I only ever :USE the CL package.  So I use explicit package prefixes a lot.
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2019-12-05T08:11:21Z beach: earl-ducaine: As pjb pointed out, using package-local nicknames would be the right thing, once they are widespread.
2019-12-05T08:12:07Z Shinmera: I've started using PLNs in libraries.
2019-12-05T08:12:52Z Shinmera: ECL,ABCL,CCL,SBCL is good enough coverage for me, and I hope pressure from libraries can convince the commercial implementations to catch up
2019-12-05T08:13:32Z earl-ducaine: beach: thanks! That was actually my next question.
2019-12-05T08:13:48Z Duuqnd: IIRC trivial-package-local-nicknames has support for Clasp too, so it's got almost everything but the commercial ones.
2019-12-05T08:13:56Z Shinmera: Oh, right, Clasp, too.
2019-12-05T08:14:17Z Duuqnd: I checked, it's got support for SBCL, CCL, ECL, Clasp and ABCL.
2019-12-05T08:16:34Z earl-ducaine: Shinmera: I saw you tweet regarding that a while back. I've been meaning to take a look at some of your projects to see how you're using them.
2019-12-05T08:17:07Z Shinmera: https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/377
2019-12-05T08:18:04Z Shinmera: I just use the defpackage expression for it. That's portable across all implementations that support PLNs without needing a dependency.
2019-12-05T08:25:34Z Duuqnd: I didn't know SBCL had package-local nicknames built in!
2019-12-05T08:26:25Z Duuqnd: Or did I load trivial-package-local-nicknames without noticing?
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2019-12-05T08:28:54Z earl-ducaine: Shinmera: Awesome. Thanks!
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2019-12-05T08:32:54Z jackdaniel: Duuqnd: no library could bring packagle-local nicknames on its own
2019-12-05T08:33:07Z jackdaniel: it may be supported only on implementations which implement the extension
2019-12-05T08:33:32Z jackdaniel: trivial-* libraries are usually portability layers which simply import symbols to a single package so the access to the protocol is uniform for the programmer
2019-12-05T08:33:53Z jackdaniel: so instead of writing #-sbcl ext:foo #+sbcl sb-ext:foo you may write trivial-foo:foo
2019-12-05T08:34:32Z jackdaniel: so if tpn s on the implementation than means this implementaiton have this extension\
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2019-12-05T08:34:46Z Duuqnd: Oh, I see. Thanks for explaining! I'm not that experienced with the Common Lisp ecosystem yet.
2019-12-05T08:34:55Z jackdaniel: sure
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2019-12-05T08:47:26Z phoe: pjb: package-local nicknames are cross-implementation enough now in the FLOSS Lisp world.
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2019-12-05T08:52:50Z pjb: ok then.
2019-12-05T08:53:08Z phoe: The only remaining significant effort I see is to port them to CLISP.
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2019-12-05T09:02:35Z boeg: If I want to push to an empty list, how do I do that? I can easily do it with `push` if the list i initialized with something like `(list 1 2)` but if the list is empty, like `(list)`, I get the error the value nil is not of type cons
2019-12-05T09:03:47Z beach: boeg: You can't turn NIL into a CONS if that is what you are asking.
2019-12-05T09:03:53Z phoe: boeg: you can't push to an empty list, you push into a place
2019-12-05T09:03:57Z phoe: what is the place that you push into?
2019-12-05T09:04:54Z beach: boeg: What phoe is saying.  What is the second argument to your push?
2019-12-05T09:04:54Z phoe: (let ((x nil)) (push 1 x) x) ;=> (1)
2019-12-05T09:04:57Z phoe: so it works well for me
2019-12-05T09:05:14Z phoe: X is the place I push into; in this case, it is a lexical variable
2019-12-05T09:05:28Z boeg: so... What I'm trying is that I run through a bunch of things, and if I find what I seek, I push the position of the thing I seek to a list of positions and then continue until I have a list containing all the positions. At the start, the list of positions is empty because I know no positions
2019-12-05T09:05:46Z phoe: boeg: where is your list of positions placed
2019-12-05T09:05:54Z phoe: I can push into a CAR of some cons, into a GETHASH of some hash table, into a SLOT-VALUE of some instance, et cetera, et cetera
2019-12-05T09:06:12Z phoe: what is the place at which your list of positions is located in your code?
2019-12-05T09:06:16Z boeg: beach: ah, what I'm doing right now is `(cdr (last positions))` as second argument to push
2019-12-05T09:06:49Z beach: boeg: Just push onto the beginning of the list instead.
2019-12-05T09:06:53Z phoe: boeg: 1) this is not a place if LAST is not a cons, 2) pushing to the end of the list is inefficient
2019-12-05T09:06:55Z boeg: where positions is just `(defparameter positions (list)`
2019-12-05T09:07:08Z boeg: ah, of course, makes sense
2019-12-05T09:07:12Z beach: boeg: What you are doing is a quadratic algorithm where a linear one exists.
2019-12-05T09:07:16Z phoe: instead, push into the front of the list and nreverse it at the end if you want a reversed list
2019-12-05T09:07:46Z beach: boeg: And you can use '() to initialize the parameter.  It is more idiomatic.
2019-12-05T09:08:01Z phoe: pjb: also, I've made https://gitlab.com/gnu-clisp/clisp/issues/20 and maybe someday some random phoe will implement it there
2019-12-05T09:08:04Z boeg: beach, phoe: of of course
2019-12-05T09:08:10Z boeg: makes sense, I it works now
2019-12-05T09:08:28Z boeg: I guess I was just caught up in the mindset of "adding to the end of the list" when it really doesn't matter
2019-12-05T09:08:32Z boeg: thank you
2019-12-05T09:08:38Z beach: Anytime!
2019-12-05T09:09:27Z phoe: boeg: adding to the end of the list only works if the end of the list exists as a place
2019-12-05T09:09:39Z phoe: if the list is empty, the list *is* the end of the list
2019-12-05T09:09:45Z boeg: phoe: yeah, I understand that now, makes sense :)
2019-12-05T09:09:57Z phoe: a CDR of some cons is a place, but a CDR of NIL is not - that's the trick here
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2019-12-05T09:10:57Z boeg: yes, it's clear to me now, thank you
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2019-12-05T09:13:20Z pjb: phoe: do you know exactly what is required to hook PLN into a new implementation?
2019-12-05T09:13:31Z pjb: (usually we only need to patch a couple of CL functions).
2019-12-05T09:13:47Z pjb: phoe: if you do know, it'd be nice to mention it in the issue.
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2019-12-05T09:15:52Z pjb: boeg: first, you have a fundamental misconception here.  One cannot "push ont a list" in lisp, since there is no list ADT in lisp!   What we do, is to create a new lisp with a new element in the car of the new cons cell, and the old list in the cdr of the new cons cell.  Then we rePLACE the binding of the PLACE considered with this new list.
2019-12-05T09:16:05Z pjb: boeg: ie. we push onto a PLACE.  (push element PLACE).
2019-12-05T09:16:36Z boeg: pjb: yes, I think I'm getting it now, we'll see if it sticks, thank you :)
2019-12-05T09:16:37Z pjb: boeg: we can as well push onto a PLACE that is not bound to a list!  (let ((x 42)) (push 33 x) x) #| --> (33 . 42) |# this just create a new cons cell as said above.
2019-12-05T09:17:45Z phoe: pjb: noted, thanks.
2019-12-05T09:18:28Z pjb: boeg: Finally, I shall mention that while most lists are represented by cons cells which are potentially mutable (if they're not literal cons cells), the case of the empty list is special since it's represented by a SYMBOL which is essentially IMMUTABLE.   This is why we cannot mutate lists (chains of cons cells OR the symbol NIL), since the symbol NIL cannot be changed, notably, cannot be changed into a cons cell.
2019-12-05T09:19:02Z pjb: boeg: hence delete, remove, etc having to return the new result, instead of mutating the argument value, and hence POP and PUSH working on places instead of lists.
2019-12-05T09:19:30Z pjb: boeg: a good exercise would be to implement a list ADT (eg. using CLOS standard-objects).
2019-12-05T09:19:43Z boeg: pjb: interesting - i'm still only trying to properly understand the specifics of cons cells, symbols and so on, so I shall keep that in mind
2019-12-05T09:21:51Z pjb: boeg: For more details on lists (cons cells) and exercises, you may have a look at:  Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/  http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html    and even at the Little Schemer (just do the exercises in CL instead of scheme).
2019-12-05T09:22:14Z boeg: pjb: thank you!
2019-12-05T09:22:29Z phoe: pjb: I commented on that issue and mentioned that I have the background to perform the task. Thanks.
2019-12-05T09:23:18Z pjb: phoe: great!  (I thought the random phoe was a different phoe ;-)).
2019-12-05T09:24:28Z pjb: boeg: note that in practice (in actual programs), you can avoid NIL as a representant of the empty list, by storing your list in a cons cell (perhaps a temporary cons cell). Then you can work with the list by using cons cell MUTATION, since all the values are always cons cells.
2019-12-05T09:24:55Z boeg: pjb: i'll keep that in mind
2019-12-05T09:25:25Z phoe: that's a hack though - a list is always placed somewhere, and you can mutate that place
2019-12-05T09:25:26Z pjb: boeg: it's kind of like the use of guard values in iterations, that simplies the tests.
2019-12-05T09:25:35Z pjb: Indeed.
2019-12-05T09:25:57Z phoe: the only thing you do is standardize that the lists are going to reside in CDRs or CARS of conses
2019-12-05T09:26:11Z phoe: but CDRs and CARs of conses are places anyway, so literally nothing has changed from the technical point of view
2019-12-05T09:26:53Z pjb: Only the code is simplified because you deal only with cons cells. You don't have to special case for NIL anymore.
2019-12-05T09:27:14Z phoe: pjb: only if, for any reason, you want to mutate lists without dealing with places
2019-12-05T09:27:35Z phoe: which is weird since places exist exactly for the reason of solving this problem
2019-12-05T09:28:08Z phoe: so it's like, implementing an alternate solution when for any reason we don't want to use the existing one
2019-12-05T09:28:34Z beach: That is called "concrete" vs "abstract" data types.
2019-12-05T09:29:03Z beach: Common Lisp lists are concrete.  You need concrete data types to implement abstract ones.
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2019-12-05T09:29:53Z beach: If you want to create a protocol for use by client code, usually you want an abstract data type.
2019-12-05T09:30:31Z beach: But for its implementation, it is fine to use concrete data types.
2019-12-05T09:31:01Z pjb: For example, compare the two functions in https://pastebin.com/WaL0tTvw ; the first needs to test inside the loop for NIL; the second doesn't.  It will be faster, if the consing of a temporary cons cell can be amortized.
2019-12-05T09:31:48Z pjb: err, s/collection/coll/ where needed…
2019-12-05T09:32:22Z phoe: pjb: I'd also do a version with that PUSHes into collection to show the difference
2019-12-05T09:32:46Z pjb: https://pastebin.com/f84S8MB6
2019-12-05T09:33:04Z pjb: phoe: well for push it's less obvious, since we can (cons x NIL) without testing :-)
2019-12-05T09:33:59Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1587#1587
2019-12-05T09:34:01Z phoe: I think I got it right
2019-12-05T09:34:19Z pjb: Exactly.
2019-12-05T09:34:28Z pjb: In this case, there's no difficulty.
2019-12-05T09:34:32Z phoe: I abstract away the whole "is COLLECTION empty or not" and just push into it
2019-12-05T09:34:42Z pjb: Even push itself doesn't need to test for the old value in the place.
2019-12-05T09:34:43Z phoe: that's the convenience of places
2019-12-05T09:35:03Z phoe: in this last case, COLLECTION is a place
2019-12-05T09:35:04Z pjb: No, just of push which just needs to do cons without testing for the list.
2019-12-05T09:35:42Z pjb: It's when you need to mutate the list, ie. the actual cons cells, that the trick of using a prefix cons cell can be good, to avoid testing for nil.
2019-12-05T09:36:00Z phoe: pjb: one second, need to parse this
2019-12-05T09:36:03Z pjb: Because (length (cons x list)) > 0  even when (length list) = 0.
2019-12-05T09:36:35Z jackdaniel: tracking the last cons is also beneficial if you want to push at the end of the list
2019-12-05T09:36:43Z phoe: oh right, correct - but COLLECT-IF is a bad case of showing how to mutate a list
2019-12-05T09:36:44Z jackdaniel: you just replace cdr of the stored cons
2019-12-05T09:37:22Z phoe: since it doesn't really mutate the contents of any lists, other than NCONCing stuff onto them which doesn't change the tail
2019-12-05T09:39:08Z pjb: (collect-if #'evenp '(1 2 3 4) (list 0)) #| --> (0 2 4) |#
2019-12-05T09:39:28Z pjb: (let ((e (list 0))) (collect-if #'evenp '(1 2 3 4) e) e) #| --> (0 2 4) |#
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2019-12-05T09:42:57Z phoe: pjb: it doesn't matter in case of functions since functions always strip places away
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2019-12-05T09:43:37Z phoe: oh wait, I terribly misread the last line
2019-12-05T09:43:39Z pjb: phoe: my point is that using a temp cons cell allows you to write a simplier loop body, with fewer tests.
2019-12-05T09:43:50Z phoe: yes, you return the variable there
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2019-12-05T10:45:30Z phoe: How can I stop formatting if the next format argument is NIL?
2019-12-05T10:45:57Z phoe: My format call has three arguments - first, second (boolean), and third. I only want to print and process the third if the second one is true.
2019-12-05T10:46:56Z jdz: phoe: ~@[
2019-12-05T10:47:17Z jdz: phoe: not @, but ~:[
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2019-12-05T10:47:31Z jdz: You just have to leave the consequent part empty.
2019-12-05T10:47:39Z _death: "and process"?
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2019-12-05T10:47:56Z phoe: _death: s/and process //
2019-12-05T10:48:04Z phoe: jdz: let me try that, thanks.
2019-12-05T10:50:02Z jdz: I always have to read the documentation of ~:[ at least three times — the double negativism trips me up.
2019-12-05T10:53:05Z _death: with out, it'd be (out a (:q (b c))) .. the :q operator is similar to cond
2019-12-05T10:53:27Z phoe: jdz: thanks.
2019-12-05T10:53:54Z phoe: _death: I had an instinct to s/with out/without/ but then I re-re-read and noticed that OUT is likely a formatlike library
2019-12-05T10:54:36Z _death: https://github.com/death/constantia/blob/master/out.lisp
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2019-12-05T10:56:51Z phoe: _death: throw that at quicklisp, would ya
2019-12-05T10:57:24Z _death: phoe: see readme
2019-12-05T10:59:11Z phoe: _death: I saw and I'd do that myself, but there's a missing field or two in the ASDF file
2019-12-05T10:59:15Z pjb: phoe: (loop for b in '(b nil) collect (format nil "~A~@[ ~A ~A ~]" 'a b 'c)) #| --> ("a b c " "a") |#
2019-12-05T10:59:20Z phoe: I wonder if that is purposeful
2019-12-05T10:59:29Z phoe: pjb: yes, I got it - thanks
2019-12-05T10:59:43Z pjb: ~:[ is for false ~; true
2019-12-05T11:00:12Z pjb: (loop for b in '(b nil) collect (format nil "~A~:[ false~; true ~A~]" 'a b 'c)) #| --> ("a true c" "a false") |#
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2019-12-05T11:00:30Z pjb: Note that ~:[ eats the argument, while ~@[ doesn't.
2019-12-05T11:00:41Z _death: phoe: I was referring to the not-for-public-consumption part.. but since it's been a decade, maybe it's ready for a little use
2019-12-05T11:02:18Z phoe: _death: I know that you were referring to it
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2019-12-05T11:03:33Z _death: phoe: may have misunderstood you then
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2019-12-05T11:13:03Z phoe: _death: it is more than possible, I am pretty tired today after a sleepless night
2019-12-05T11:13:20Z phoe: so my train of thought might not be on its usual track
2019-12-05T11:13:54Z _death: sleepless nights are ok, as long as you sleep during the day ;)
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2019-12-05T11:15:39Z phoe: _death: I am not, that is the issue
2019-12-05T11:15:50Z phoe: so I am running without my scheduled GC
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2019-12-05T11:37:01Z Xach: lukego: i wish there was a middle ground where things mostly work most of the time but you can hack on and sync upstream projects more easily
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2019-12-05T12:18:28Z flip214: minion: memo for karlosz: we're scheduling right now... please tell us all topics and approx. time
2019-12-05T12:18:28Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell karlosz when he/she/it next speaks.
2019-12-05T12:20:57Z lottaquestions: Hi all, I have a question based on one of the code examples in Practical Common Lisp
2019-12-05T12:21:27Z lottaquestions: The following macro is created:
2019-12-05T12:21:52Z lottaquestions: (defmacro define-binary-class (name slots)	       `(defclass ,name ()		  ,(mapcar #'slot->defclass-slot slots)))
2019-12-05T12:22:22Z lottaquestions: But when I expand the macro, it converts the () to NULL!
2019-12-05T12:22:29Z lottaquestions: NIL
2019-12-05T12:22:50Z lottaquestions: (macroexpand-1 '(define-binary-class id3-tag  ((identifier      (iso-8859-1-string :length 3))   (major-version   u1)   (revision        u1)   (flags           u1)   (size            id3-tag-size)   (frames          (id3-frames :tag-size size)))))(DEFCLASS ID3-TAG NIL          ((IDENTIFIER :INITARG :IDENTIFIER :ACCESSOR IDENTIFIER)
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2019-12-05T12:22:51Z lottaquestions: (MAJOR-VERSION :INITARG :MAJOR-VERSION :ACCESSOR MAJOR-VERSION)           (REVISION :INITARG :REVISION :ACCESSOR REVISION)           (FLAGS :INITARG :FLAGS :ACCESSOR FLAGS)           (SIZE :INITARG :SIZE :ACCESSOR SIZE)           (FRAMES :INITARG :FRAMES :ACCESSOR FRAMES)))T
2019-12-05T12:23:42Z lottaquestions: Right after the "DEFCLASS ID3-TAG" there is a NIL instead of ()
2019-12-05T12:24:13Z lottaquestions: Is there something I should be doing to ensure the () does not get converted to a NIL?
2019-12-05T12:24:49Z _death: () is NIL, NIL is ()
2019-12-05T12:24:51Z phoe: lottaquestions: please post larger bodies of question in pastebin
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2019-12-05T12:25:24Z phoe: also, the symbol NIL is the empty list in Common Lisp
2019-12-05T12:25:41Z phoe: these are the two different ways of denoting the same object
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2019-12-05T12:28:09Z lottaquestions: Pastebin: https://pastebin.com/KYEQ9uQA
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2019-12-05T12:28:35Z lottaquestions: So does that mean that the code generated by the macro will run OK with the NIL
2019-12-05T12:28:41Z lottaquestions: instead of the ()
2019-12-05T12:28:53Z lottaquestions: in the parameter list section of the function?
2019-12-05T12:29:27Z pjb: lottaquestions: it means that there's no difference! The object read when you read NIL or () with the default read-table is exactly the same symbol CL:NIL.
2019-12-05T12:29:38Z pjb: (list (read-from-string "()") (read-from-string "nil")) #| --> (nil nil) |#
2019-12-05T12:29:43Z pjb: (eq (read-from-string "()") (read-from-string "nil")) #| --> t |#
2019-12-05T12:29:47Z pjb: same thing.
2019-12-05T12:30:25Z pjb: (mapcar 'read-from-string '("()" "(   )"  "NIL" "nil" "cl:nil" "CL:\Nil")) #| --> (nil nil nil nil nil nil) |#
2019-12-05T12:30:37Z pjb: there are a lot of representations of CL:NIL…
2019-12-05T12:30:38Z lottaquestions: oh thanks. A newb learns another thing :-)
2019-12-05T12:31:09Z pjb: lottaquestions: you should not confuse the textual representations from the actual lisp objects that are read to, or printed from.
2019-12-05T12:31:26Z _death: (format nil "~A is identical to ~:A" '() nil)
2019-12-05T12:32:50Z lottaquestions: pjb I blame it on my algol based background :-)
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2019-12-05T12:42:25Z kmeow: is there a built in function that produces a sequence from a sequence, but with elements meeting a condition removed?
2019-12-05T12:42:51Z kmeow: I could have sworn I saw one used somewhere
2019-12-05T12:43:02Z _death: remove-if
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2019-12-05T12:44:01Z kmeow: thanks!
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2019-12-05T12:49:03Z drmeister: fe[nl]ix: the problem with the zip file idea is that macOS needs the dwarf file to be out in the open file system alongside the fast
2019-12-05T12:49:09Z drmeister: Fasl
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2019-12-05T13:15:06Z froggey: drmeister: what is compile-file-parallel? what bits does it do in parallel?
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2019-12-05T13:32:11Z drmeister: Everything after the ast compilation
2019-12-05T13:33:26Z drmeister: We get about a 2x speed increase and with our slow llvm based compiler i desire very much to get it online.
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2019-12-05T13:38:37Z froggey: neat, sounds similar to what I implemented. though I only got a 10-15% speedup
2019-12-05T13:39:39Z drmeister: So one source file generates multiple object files. That’s a problem on macOS - the ld64 linker will only reference one object file per source file.
2019-12-05T13:40:10Z drmeister: Our compiler is llvm based and probably has higher latency than yours.
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2019-12-05T13:41:21Z drmeister: The amount of parallelism is HIGHLY variable. So 2x is a rough estimate.
2019-12-05T13:46:41Z froggey: probably, still 15% is good. took me to sub-30 minute build times
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2019-12-05T14:10:06Z drmeister: You compile to native code - right?   If you had to describe how you do that in an elevator ride - how would you?
2019-12-05T14:10:23Z pjb: drmeister: what bothers you with the separate dwarf file?
2019-12-05T14:10:36Z drmeister: It's not atomic to generate it.
2019-12-05T14:11:03Z drmeister: We are running cando in jupyterlab.
2019-12-05T14:11:09Z pjb: File generation is not atomic either.
2019-12-05T14:11:32Z drmeister: When jupyterlab starts up - you can have several cando instances startup at once.  They all start building asdf systems and stomp all over each other.
2019-12-05T14:11:44Z pjb: So you might solve it either by exchanging the order of generation, or by generating the fasl file under a different name and renaming it after the dwarf file is created.
2019-12-05T14:12:02Z drmeister: So we compile-file to a temporary target and then rename it - that is atomic.
2019-12-05T14:12:11Z drmeister: But we can't rename two files atomically.
2019-12-05T14:12:41Z pjb: drmeister: you will have to solve the cando problem in a different way, given 1- file generation is not atomic, and 2- you won't want to mix fasl files from different (versions of the) sources either.
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2019-12-05T14:12:55Z pjb: drmeister: you only need to rename the fasl file.
2019-12-05T14:13:16Z drmeister: Why do we only need to rename the fasl file?
2019-12-05T14:13:26Z pjb: But really, you cannot solve your problem without a more general lock.
2019-12-05T14:14:07Z drmeister: We thought we could use a directory as a fasl file.  Then we can put whatever inside of it and rename the directory atomically.
2019-12-05T14:14:07Z pjb: drmeister: because asdf only tests and deals with the fasl file. It doesn't care about the other files.
2019-12-05T14:14:28Z froggey: for compile-file: forms are read, top-level form processing is performed (eval-when, etc), then anything that needs to be saved is fed into the compiler which produces a regular compiled-function (along with a set of relocations). compile-file accumlates the compiled functions until it finishes reading the input file, then writes out everything to the fasl
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2019-12-05T14:14:51Z pjb: file writing is not atomic!
2019-12-05T14:15:01Z pjb: If two processes try to write the same file, you get problems anyways.
2019-12-05T14:15:42Z drmeister: Yes - so the two processes write to temporary directories and then each tries to rename its directory overwriting whatever target was there.
2019-12-05T14:15:53Z drmeister: That was the theory at least.
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2019-12-05T14:16:30Z drmeister: And it works well enough for clasp - although I haven't tried multiple processes doing competitive compilation.
2019-12-05T14:17:18Z drmeister: ASDF explicitly checks that fasl files are files and not directories.   I disabled that for clasp.
2019-12-05T14:17:48Z drmeister: Now I'm running into ASDF's own version of writing to a temporary fasl and then renaming it causing problems.
2019-12-05T14:18:58Z pjb: drmeister: The point here is to keep consistency.  You may want to keep files consistent.  But I'm saying that you will also want to keep whole directory hierarchies consistent. You don't want half the fasl files compiled by one instance of cando, and the rest by another, because then the fasl files can be inconsistent, either by way of the compilation process itself (assuming the sources are the same; eg. perhaps different optimi
2019-12-05T14:18:58Z pjb: levels), or because the sources are different between the two cando.
2019-12-05T14:19:19Z drmeister: This is really just a problem on macOS.    They do this thing where they separate out code from debug info.  It's causing me grief.
2019-12-05T14:19:25Z pjb: drmeister: so you must manage it at this higher level, forbiding the two initializations to occur at the same time.
2019-12-05T14:20:05Z pjb: drmeister: this can be a problem everywhere.  jupyterlab & tar xvf sources.tar &&  jupyterlabe
2019-12-05T14:20:10Z pjb: boom!
2019-12-05T14:20:24Z pjb: Why do you have two jupiterlab instances running?
2019-12-05T14:20:59Z drmeister: Not two jupyterlab instances.   One jupyterlab instance with multiple sessions running.  That's very common.
2019-12-05T14:21:38Z pjb: ok. So the solution is to be solved in jupiterlab, which must prevent the launching of new session when the old ones are not finished initializing and compiling stuff.
2019-12-05T14:21:54Z drmeister: Much of the cando source code is written using ASDF systems and loaded using quicklisp.
2019-12-05T14:22:08Z pjb: You can have the same problem if you M-x slime several instances at the same time.
2019-12-05T14:22:26Z drmeister: So if I edit the source code and start up jupyterlab I get like five cando instances starting up at the same time trying to build the same code.  It's trample town.
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2019-12-05T14:22:42Z pjb: Exactly.
2019-12-05T14:22:57Z pjb: The cando instances must not start at the same time.
2019-12-05T14:23:01Z drmeister: It works because they keep crashing and starting up again automatically and picking up where the whole mess left off.  But it's not pretty.
2019-12-05T14:23:13Z pjb: Perhaps we could put a global lock at the system level with asdf.
2019-12-05T14:23:27Z pjb: when asdf is compiling a system, another asdf must not try to compile the same system.
2019-12-05T14:24:08Z pjb: But synchronizing at a finer level than the system level won't be a good solution.
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2019-12-05T14:27:19Z drmeister: These are running in different unix processes - how would you do a lock like that?
2019-12-05T14:28:05Z pjb: You can create locks by creating a file in the system directory.
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2019-12-05T14:30:49Z drmeister: Why not just use directories as fasls and rename (atomic) of the fasl/directory?
2019-12-05T14:31:55Z drmeister: Locks are a PITA and modifying ASDF to handle concurrency - gah.
2019-12-05T14:35:58Z pjb: drmeister: the alternative, is to compile your system before launching the cando instances!
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2019-12-05T15:32:40Z drmeister: We are doing a lot of development.
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2019-12-05T15:34:47Z boeg: A loop using :for, :with and such, what is it called? I see it used in some code, but I can't find documentation for it and don't really understand how its supposed to work
2019-12-05T15:35:38Z pfdietz: LOOP is part of the Common Lisp standard.
2019-12-05T15:35:44Z pfdietz: CLHS LOOP
2019-12-05T15:35:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
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2019-12-05T15:35:56Z pjb: boeg: It's an extended loop form.
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2019-12-05T15:36:30Z boeg: thank you
2019-12-05T15:36:55Z pfdietz: Some people prefer ITERATE, others do not.   https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/
2019-12-05T15:37:43Z boeg: pfdietz: thanks
2019-12-05T15:37:48Z aeth: ITERATE was a great disappointment when I tried it because it's its own thing.
2019-12-05T15:37:49Z pfdietz: (although I think you should get that from quicklisp, not the links at that page)
2019-12-05T15:37:51Z pjb: a loop not using anything is a simple loop (there's an implicit block nil): (let ((i 0)) (loop (print 'hi) (when (< 3 (incf i)) (return 42)) (print 'lo)))
2019-12-05T15:38:01Z boeg: I gotta get used to the documentation cause I find it a bit confusing at the moment
2019-12-05T15:38:05Z aeth: All I want is a lispier LOOP so I'll have to eventually write one myself
2019-12-05T15:38:16Z pjb: aeth: the lispiest loop is loop!
2019-12-05T15:38:17Z pfdietz: My sadness with ITERATE was it broke COVER.
2019-12-05T15:38:35Z pfdietz: That's COVER's fault, though.
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2019-12-05T15:38:37Z pjb: as in the simple loop.
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2019-12-05T15:38:43Z aeth: pjb: not really, LOOP is kind of a demo of what macros can do in Lisp rather than the Lispiest way to write such a macro
2019-12-05T15:39:04Z dlowe: I'm a SERIES fan for the idea (if not the implementation)
2019-12-05T15:39:21Z dlowe: I think complex loops could be expressed best in a series-type system
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2019-12-05T15:40:05Z boeg: What I'm currently interested in is that is that I saw something like this somewhere: `(loop :with (a . b) = c ....` where I'm guessing that c, a list,  get's "deconstructed" into the variables a and b, so a contains car and b cdr, to be used the loop, but I'm not succesful in looking that up in the documentation. I guess it'll be easier as I can more used to the customs of common lisp :D
2019-12-05T15:40:08Z aeth: pjb: If I had to implement LOOP, what I would do is I would make each of its clauses be its own s-expression and I would use plist tails to implement its vocabulary via DESTRUCTURING-BIND, which is common in macros. This would also mean that ordering within a clause wouldn't matter past the first. e.g. (:for x :from 1 :below 10) vs. (:for x :below 10 :from 1)
2019-12-05T15:40:55Z mhcat: Hi Lispers, does anyone have a recommended threading macro implementation for CL? I found alexandria's COMPOSE which solved one of my discomforts (I'm a habitual clojurist) but threading would be super useful for controlling my cascading indentation.
2019-12-05T15:40:57Z aeth: pjb: I have written something that does some limited parsing (for HTML generation), I guess sort of like what LOOP does, and it's its own thing and doesn't quite feel as right.
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2019-12-05T15:41:15Z dlowe: boeg: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_aag.htm explains the destructuring assignment
2019-12-05T15:41:29Z boeg: dlowe: thanks ill check it out
2019-12-05T15:41:35Z mhcat: If anyone has other pointers for useful utilities or other essentials, I'd be grateful
2019-12-05T15:41:37Z Josh_2: the lispiest loop is do ;)
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2019-12-05T15:41:49Z aeth: Josh_2: it is but no one can read DO for whatever reason
2019-12-05T15:41:53Z Josh_2: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2019-12-05T15:42:22Z aeth: Josh_2: The most spirit-of-Lisp kind of thing to do is to write your own DO-FOO on top of DO (or on top of another macro that probably itself uses DO like DOLIST or DOTIMES)
2019-12-05T15:42:35Z aeth: If your DO is unclear, that's just a hint to write a new DO-FOO
2019-12-05T15:42:36Z dlowe: I mean, the lispiest loop is schemes named-let recursion
2019-12-05T15:42:47Z aeth: well, that's the Schemiest thing to do
2019-12-05T15:43:09Z aeth: In CL, macros that compile to do DO seems more like the right thing.
2019-12-05T15:43:14Z aeth: Of course, no need to do the right thing. :-p
2019-12-05T15:43:23Z dlowe: CL has lots of right things
2019-12-05T15:44:29Z pjb: aeth: no, loop, when it contains only compound forms, is a very simple macro!
2019-12-05T15:44:46Z aeth: dlowe: well, the other "right thing" that seems CLish is to use higher order functions like MAP and REDUCE
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2019-12-05T15:45:31Z pjb: aeth: (defmacro loop (&rest stuff) (if (every (function consp) stuff) `(block nil (tagbody #1=#:loop ,@stuff (go #1#))) (parse-and-generate-extended-loop stuff)))
2019-12-05T15:45:46Z aeth: pjb: Having written macros where you have a "vocabulary" to parse like LOOP and macros where you just have a bunch of lists to DESTRUCTURING-BIND, I can definitely say that the latter is waaaaay easier because &key does most of your work for you
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2019-12-05T15:46:19Z aeth: The only reason why D-B has some haters is because its condition is inconsistent across implementations so you can't really handle it, afaik.
2019-12-05T15:46:41Z phoe: aeth: condition?
2019-12-05T15:46:44Z pjb: aeth: Not only the extended loop is what you say, but it's an example of a generic macro, that dispatches to TWO different macros, depending on the arguments!!!
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2019-12-05T15:47:15Z aeth: phoe: (destructuring-bind (a) (list)) ; [Condition of type SB-KERNEL::ARG-COUNT-ERROR]
2019-12-05T15:47:47Z phoe: aeth: what about it?
2019-12-05T15:48:07Z phoe: that is a valid error
2019-12-05T15:48:15Z dlowe: there's no standard error for it
2019-12-05T15:48:16Z aeth: phoe: The standard doesn't specify destructuring-bind conditions, so there's no way for you to handle them programmatically in a portable way.
2019-12-05T15:48:27Z phoe: aeth: ha!
2019-12-05T15:48:28Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/destructuring-bind-star
2019-12-05T15:49:11Z aeth: phoe: right
2019-12-05T15:49:20Z phoe: I knew that I'd have a chance to post that library during my lifetime
2019-12-05T15:49:26Z aeth: phoe: oh, good solution, it looks like you eventually just generate a destructuring-bind so it shouldn't hurt efficiency
2019-12-05T15:49:27Z phoe: as much of an edge case that it is
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2019-12-05T15:51:25Z phoe: anyway, feel free to use this one and/or test it and/or file a bugticket if something is broken
2019-12-05T15:51:40Z phoe: I have some tests there, but there might be more bugs lurking.
2019-12-05T15:53:35Z pfdietz: Ah, it uses a flag to determine if the error comes from the destructuring or the body.
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2019-12-05T15:53:50Z aeth: phoe: doesn't someone have a random tester for standard CL? you could run that but adding a * after destructuring-bind and see what comes up
2019-12-05T15:54:06Z pfdietz: Who would write such a thing.
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2019-12-05T15:54:57Z pfdietz: Anyway, the random tester is limited to mostly integer valued forms, so it doesn't test destructuring-bind much.
2019-12-05T15:55:01Z pfdietz: (if at all)
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2019-12-05T16:03:24Z aeth: pfdietz: that's unfortunate, I'm sure there are probably some nice, fun binding bugs out there, especially with the more advanced binding forms like destructuring-bind and defmacro
2019-12-05T16:06:52Z Davd33: Some lispers in France maybe?
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2019-12-05T16:10:22Z pjb: Davd33: some.  Even in Bordeaux.
2019-12-05T16:10:56Z Davd33: Cool! Do you know how to contact them?
2019-12-05T16:11:21Z pjb: Here, if you need interactive contact.
2019-12-05T16:11:37Z pjb: Do you need a Lisper in France?
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2019-12-05T16:11:58Z pjb: I'm in Paris.  beach is in Bordeaux.  There are others.
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2019-12-05T16:13:37Z beach: Davd33: There are also a bunch of others that don't hang out here, like Didier Verna and Jim Newton.  They are at EPITA.
2019-12-05T16:14:15Z Davd33: Alright, I’m from Bordeaux but currently in Luxembourg
2019-12-05T16:14:40Z pjb: Do you need a lisper in Luxembourg? I'm free…
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2019-12-05T16:16:17Z Davd33: I’m currently employed, not as lisp dev unfortunately. ^^
2019-12-05T16:16:55Z pjb: Ok.
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2019-12-05T16:18:25Z beach: Davd33: So was it just out of curiosity that you asked about Lispers in France?
2019-12-05T16:19:00Z beach: Davd33: If you go to ELS2020, you will meet a few.  I highly recommend going.
2019-12-05T16:20:07Z Davd33: Oh yes I would like to go to ELS
2019-12-05T16:20:19Z aeth: France seems to be the most popular European country for Common Lispers.
2019-12-05T16:20:32Z aeth: At least from my limited perspective that might not see the full picture.
2019-12-05T16:20:34Z pjb: And this year, it's close, Zürich, you can go in train.
2019-12-05T16:20:35Z Davd33: But registrations are not yet opened I think
2019-12-05T16:21:06Z beach: aeth: Germany and Sweden are well represented too.
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2019-12-05T16:21:17Z beach: Poland.
2019-12-05T16:23:05Z pjb: And cheap. TGV Paris-Zuerich 7:22-11:26 in April is only 29 euro…
2019-12-05T16:23:28Z Shinmera: Very fast too :)
2019-12-05T16:24:01Z pjb: Shinmera: it's faster than any plane, since you can work non-stop during 4 hours with your laptop. You cannot do that when you take a plane…
2019-12-05T16:24:42Z boeg: Right now i'm running my scripts with simply "sbcl --load file.lisp" but this current one is taking a looong time to finish when I use the real input to the program instead of just the test input. Can I tell sbcl to optimize the compilation - like remove debug info and so on - to run faster?
2019-12-05T16:25:51Z pjb: boeg: foremost, you could just launch sbcl and use the REPL!
2019-12-05T16:26:01Z Xach: boeg: it is likely doing a pretty good job by default. if it takes a long time to do its work it may be the algorithm needs attention.
2019-12-05T16:26:06Z boeg: pjb: well, in actually, i am, from emacs, with sly
2019-12-05T16:26:11Z pjb: boeg: (load (compile-file "file.lisp")) and (load "file") if it's already compiled.
2019-12-05T16:26:18Z Xach: there are certainly settings to improve the margins after you have done lots of other low-hanging fruit
2019-12-05T16:27:45Z pjb: boeg: You can put (declaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (space 0) (speed 0) (compilation-speed 3))) in ~/.sbclrc
2019-12-05T16:28:06Z boeg: Xach: Well, it's surely my algorithm - I haven't optimized at all, just wanted to see if the real input gave the real output
2019-12-05T16:28:15Z boeg: and thanks, ill try some of those things
2019-12-05T16:28:33Z pjb: boeg: and when you want to generate a binary,  use (declaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 0) (space 3) (speed 3) (compilation-speed 0))) in your  generation script.
2019-12-05T16:29:05Z boeg: thanks!
2019-12-05T16:31:24Z boeg: Also another question that might be part of my speed problem
2019-12-05T16:32:56Z boeg: I have a list ((1 2 3) (5 3 6)) and I need to find the items in the two list that are in both lists. So that would be the `3` only. Right now, I just loop the first list and on each item loop the next, check if theres a match and collect the match if there is. This is probably why it takes so damn long with the real input.
2019-12-05T16:34:11Z _death: do these lists represent sets?
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2019-12-05T16:35:05Z boeg: _death: no, right now they are just normal lists
2019-12-05T16:35:23Z boeg: but I use pushnew so there should only be uniques
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2019-12-05T16:36:25Z _death: clhs intersection
2019-12-05T16:36:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_isec_.htm
2019-12-05T16:37:01Z boeg: thank you
2019-12-05T16:37:11Z _death: if you wanted to write your own, a hash table may be useful
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2019-12-05T16:38:00Z boeg: Yeah, I was actually looking for a hash table in the beginning, but I'm pretty new to common lisp, doing advent of code to learn it, and couldn't find anything immediately, so just went with list
2019-12-05T16:38:29Z pjb: boeg: the question is what result you want for (3 3 3) (3) ?
2019-12-05T16:38:36Z boeg: but I just confirmed that the algorithm works as it should, its just slow, so now i just need to optimize it
2019-12-05T16:38:44Z boeg: pjb: just (3)
2019-12-05T16:39:57Z Davd33: boeg: I’m also doing the advent of code in cl
2019-12-05T16:40:15Z pjb: boeg: so basically they are sets.
2019-12-05T16:40:16Z Davd33: We should share answers afterwards 😊
2019-12-05T16:40:30Z boeg: Davd33: :P
2019-12-05T16:40:40Z boeg: pjb: yes they are, but i dunno if lisp has sets
2019-12-05T16:40:48Z boeg: I just went with lists :P
2019-12-05T16:40:52Z boeg: common lisp*
2019-12-05T16:41:15Z pjb: boeg: CL has no list.  It has no set.  But it has functions that work on lists built with cons cells, and on sets built with lists.
2019-12-05T16:42:01Z boeg: pjb: well, see what little I know :)
2019-12-05T16:42:25Z pjb: boeg: it may be a good idea to read the dictionaries TOC in CLHS.
2019-12-05T16:42:56Z boeg: pjb: indeed
2019-12-05T16:42:58Z Davd33: boeg: you can check also http://gigamonkeys.com/book/
2019-12-05T16:42:58Z alandipert: boeg in a pinch you can also use a hash table as a set
2019-12-05T16:43:26Z boeg: Davd33: yeah, I've looked in it a bit already
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2019-12-05T16:43:38Z boeg: alandipert: I will check that out, thanks
2019-12-05T16:44:12Z _death: or a dense set representation like an integer or a bit vector
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2019-12-05T16:45:10Z Davd33 slaps alandipert around a bit with a large spirinchus thaleichthys
2019-12-05T16:45:29Z Davd33: Sorry 😂😂
2019-12-05T16:45:45Z pjb: (bit-and #*0111000 #*0001011) #| --> #*0001000 |#
2019-12-05T16:46:23Z Davd33: Hahaha
2019-12-05T16:46:35Z _death: I did some bit twiddling on day3.. although that was not optimal in retrospect
2019-12-05T16:47:58Z Davd33: “in a pinch you can also use a hash table as a set”
2019-12-05T16:48:15Z Davd33: alandipert: what do you mean “in a pinch”
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2019-12-05T16:48:57Z pjb: boeg: you can use a reader macro to read easily bit-vectors: https://pastebin.com/E0yfLGHS
2019-12-05T16:49:16Z boeg: interesting!
2019-12-05T16:49:30Z pjb: So instead of writing #*0001011, you write 𝔟7(3 5 6)
2019-12-05T16:49:44Z boeg: yes
2019-12-05T16:50:01Z arichiardi: Hi there, I have submitted an email patch to alexandria-cvs but I think it got stuck. I was wondering who I can reach out for un-stuck it :D
2019-12-05T16:50:01Z pjb: (char-name #\𝔟) #| --> "U+1D51F" |# = "MATHEMATICAL FRAKTUR SMALL B"
2019-12-05T16:50:13Z boeg: I have to go for a while, but i'll be back in a bit, optimizing my code with all of yalls suggestions cause its taking way to long right now :P
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2019-12-05T18:08:30Z arichiardi: Hi all, I was wondering if I can ping someone for a patch to alexandria on common-lisp.net
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2019-12-05T18:21:15Z _death: arichiardi: maybe you can post an issue at https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/issues
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2019-12-05T18:31:39Z arichiardi: _death: that's a good idea thank you!
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2019-12-05T18:35:28Z galdor: regarding Alexandria, it says in a PR that "Well, as ALEXANDRIA is so widely used, we cannot put new (exported) symbols in its package." I don't get it, why is this a problem ? removing symbols would be a problem, adding them should not be
2019-12-05T18:36:44Z Xach: galdor: it could cause conflicts for people that :use alexandria
2019-12-05T18:36:48Z _death: galdor: I guess many people :use it, so if they have a defined name that alexandria will now export, redefinition may happen and you may not be so lucky as to detect it
2019-12-05T18:37:13Z Xach: I want to try building the quicklisp world with everything package-locked to see what breaks
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2019-12-05T18:50:36Z dlowe: use-package was a mistake
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2019-12-05T18:52:29Z Shinmera: nah
2019-12-05T18:54:00Z Xach: I think local package names bridge a gap in that regard.
2019-12-05T18:54:18Z Xach: You can do as alexandria did and version your names, and for a given version, the set of external symbols is fixed.
2019-12-05T18:54:30Z Shinmera: PLNs are great, but sometimes :use is still better.
2019-12-05T18:54:31Z Xach: Consumers can pick a version and give it a name they like
2019-12-05T18:55:31Z Xach: Joe Marshall wrote a thing about never ever putting package prefixes in code and that was kind of interesting
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2019-12-05T18:56:58Z _death: you can :use alexandria.version.3.141592 in ordinary common lisp
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2019-12-05T18:57:44Z Xach: Right. I am conflating unrelated things. Sorry.
2019-12-05T18:58:09Z Xach: the thing I was thinking of is using a package prefix for a versioned package with a "nice" local name
2019-12-05T18:58:18Z Xach: I think inherited symbols are different and ok too
2019-12-05T18:59:09Z _death: personally I :use only cl or packages I control.. for the rest I :import-from.. if the symbols are generic, I tend to :import-from with no symbols (so that it depends on the library; package-inferred-systems) and use the FQLN
2019-12-05T18:59:38Z Shinmera: Xach: while using versions in packages is great in concept, in practise asdf can't deal with it at all so it would be a kludge at best.
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2019-12-05T18:59:52Z Shinmera: *asdf can't deal with multiple versions at all
2019-12-05T19:00:05Z Shinmera: until ASDF is replaced, of course.
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2019-12-05T19:01:05Z Xach: Shinmera: ??? it's nothing to do with asdf and all about the interfaces supported by a project. the project offers multiple versions of the external symbols.
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2019-12-05T19:01:33Z Shinmera: yes, but you won't be able to load the same project at different versions, so what's the poitn?
2019-12-05T19:01:54Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: you can use alexandria.314 and they can use alexandria.42
2019-12-05T19:01:54Z Xach: Why not? A project can define any number of packages.
2019-12-05T19:02:14Z _death: Shinmera: alexandria v123 may provide 123 packages, one for each version
2019-12-05T19:02:27Z Shinmera: I don't count that as a practical solution.
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2019-12-05T19:02:31Z Xach: Why not?
2019-12-05T19:02:42Z _death: Microsoft did it with COM
2019-12-05T19:02:57Z Shinmera: Because it should be the job of the build system to determine the versions required and only load those.
2019-12-05T19:03:11Z Shinmera: not every version in the universe.
2019-12-05T19:03:35Z jackdaniel: *that* would be impractical, because two different libraries may depend on different versions
2019-12-05T19:03:48Z Xach: I don't think alexandria should provide every version, but as a mechanism to ease the transition from one version to another (at possibly multiple levels of supporting older interfaces) I think it is practical.
2019-12-05T19:03:55Z jackdaniel: unless you have first class global environments as beach proposed
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2019-12-05T19:04:13Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: what would be impractical?
2019-12-05T19:04:24Z Xach: If versions are additive, especially, a v2 package with a few more symbols is not, I think burdensome.
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2019-12-05T19:05:27Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: having build system determine versions -- you could have two incompatible versions as dependencies of different libraries, and without global environments you wouldn't be able to depend on both
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2019-12-05T19:05:48Z Shinmera: if you version your packages I don't see the problem?
2019-12-05T19:05:51Z jackdaniel: having different packages for different sets of exported symb0ols makes more sense
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2019-12-05T19:06:06Z jmercouris: I think this is a non-problem not even worth solving
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2019-12-05T19:06:11Z Shinmera: I'm saying package versioning is a good idea /if/ the build system can determine which of those versioned packages to provide.
2019-12-05T19:06:39Z jmercouris: people like to imagine that such functionality would be super useful, and it really wouldn't be
2019-12-05T19:06:40Z _death: we could just design perfect software and be done with it.. no need for versioning
2019-12-05T19:06:44Z jmercouris: it would just be a convoluted overengineered mess
2019-12-05T19:07:03Z jmercouris: I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that your versions should be backwards compatible
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2019-12-05T19:07:11Z jmercouris: at least with regards to API
2019-12-05T19:07:16Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: if library provides mutliple packages with different sets of symbols it makes sense and it is already solved then, do I misunderstand what you are picking at then?
2019-12-05T19:08:38Z jackdaniel: and if there are multiple packages, then depending on alexandria is good enough and I don't see a purpose of special handling by a build system
2019-12-05T19:08:57Z jackdaniel: you simply USE the correct package version
2019-12-05T19:09:06Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I'd like to be able to publish a library at version 1 and 2, and have those versions in the package name. Each release ships one of those versions. Now the build system should determine which of those to load (or both) as needed, and people can then safely rely on their versioned package always being available.
2019-12-05T19:09:38Z Shinmera: currently I would have to roll my own version management system because ASDF cannot do it.
2019-12-05T19:10:37Z jackdaniel: so you suggest essentially loading two different systems (potentialy with the same name), so you have a version-per-system?
2019-12-05T19:10:46Z Shinmera: yes
2019-12-05T19:10:51Z jackdaniel: and each system version has different package names?
2019-12-05T19:10:57Z Shinmera: yes
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2019-12-05T19:11:21Z _death: if the packages names are different, why not system names?
2019-12-05T19:11:41Z Shinmera: _death: because ASDF already has :version fields and :version constraints
2019-12-05T19:11:49Z jackdaniel: OK, now I understand you better and it makes sense (however I think that having multiple packages for single project is better, having incompatible versions of the system (imo) would justify naming it differently)
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2019-12-05T19:11:56Z _death: does asdf define version syntax?
2019-12-05T19:11:59Z Shinmera: it does
2019-12-05T19:12:09Z jackdaniel: it does but it is indeed not very useful
2019-12-05T19:12:27Z Shinmera: you can only abort the build if the constraint fails and that's it.
2019-12-05T19:12:32Z jackdaniel: you may only specify, that version older than "FOO" is not good enough, and asdf will refuse to load your system
2019-12-05T19:12:58Z Shinmera: you can't even have multiple versions of the same system in your asdf system registry.
2019-12-05T19:13:46Z jmercouris: I agree that should your API change significantly enough, perhaps a new packkage name is in order
2019-12-05T19:14:26Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: nobody argues against that
2019-12-05T19:14:30Z jmercouris: I guess nothing is to stop you from extending ASDF itself
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2019-12-05T19:14:45Z jackdaniel: the discussion is about multiple-packages-in-single-system vs different-packages-in-different-system-versions
2019-12-05T19:14:56Z jmercouris: if anyone would have the skill, it could be you
2019-12-05T19:15:52Z jackdaniel: asdf is a) constrained with backward-compatibility, b) nightmare to work with due to non-obvious class hierachies and gf specializations
2019-12-05T19:16:16Z Xach: i think it would be nice to make sbcl m-. work with asdf.lisp more precisely
2019-12-05T19:16:26Z _death: that with-upgrading macro..
2019-12-05T19:16:28Z Xach: that is one of the things that irritates me most about looking into asdf behavior
2019-12-05T19:16:46Z _death: *upgradability
2019-12-05T19:16:47Z jmercouris: that makes me super annoyed as well
2019-12-05T19:16:57Z jmercouris: there's that stupid macro with-upgradability or something
2019-12-05T19:17:01Z jmercouris: that you always get jumped to
2019-12-05T19:17:03Z jmercouris: why is this?
2019-12-05T19:17:15Z Xach: jmercouris: it is to allow new asdf to be loaded by old asdf
2019-12-05T19:17:23Z jackdaniel: to be able to update older asdf *in the image* by loading newer one
2019-12-05T19:17:31Z jmercouris: is that necessary?
2019-12-05T19:17:35Z jackdaniel: no :)
2019-12-05T19:17:36Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2019-12-05T19:17:51Z Xach: i'm sure it was an interesting challenge but the cost seems very steep to me
2019-12-05T19:18:02Z Xach: there are multiple papers and presentations on the topic
2019-12-05T19:18:02Z _death: even if this feature is desired, this macro just translates defun/defgeneric to defun*/defgeneric*
2019-12-05T19:18:08Z _death: why not just write the latter
2019-12-05T19:18:27Z jmercouris: who has control over asdf? only fare?
2019-12-05T19:18:32Z _death: (with an eval-always)
2019-12-05T19:18:41Z Xach: jmercouris: robert goldman is the current maintainer
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2019-12-05T19:19:54Z jmercouris: Shinmera: why not contact Robert Goldman with your feature request?
2019-12-05T19:19:58Z jackdaniel: _death: shadowing import of defgeneric / defun would be also an option
2019-12-05T19:20:12Z _death: jackdaniel: yep
2019-12-05T19:20:35Z Xach: jmercouris: I don't think Robert is adding more features at this time.
2019-12-05T19:20:41Z _death: jackdaniel: I'm not sure why it wasn't the first idea popped.. maybe there's a reason that I'm not aware?
2019-12-05T19:21:05Z _death: jackdaniel: then there are other terrible ideas, like this nest macro :/
2019-12-05T19:21:30Z jmercouris: The repository does seem to accept merge requests though, so there is that
2019-12-05T19:21:36Z Xach: some people really like the nest macro (not me, but it's a matter of taste i suppose)
2019-12-05T19:22:24Z _death: it just obscures the structure of code
2019-12-05T19:22:52Z jackdaniel: I would be fine with uiop if it weren't such a pita to deal with (independent from asdf my ass; as preloaded system it is hard to deal with - you must acquire newer version manually)
2019-12-05T19:23:50Z _death: yeah.. there are other things I dislike about asdf/uiop, but.. what can ya do?
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2019-12-05T19:24:36Z jackdaniel: well, I'm actively opposing propositions to put uiop in dependencies for systems I maintain
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2019-12-05T19:27:35Z _death: one issue about versions in package names is that you need to inform the user when the version is "finalized", i.e. when the set of names will no longer change
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2019-12-05T19:29:09Z _death: maybe it could be something like alexandria.2020.. so users should not use it before 2020
2019-12-05T19:29:55Z _death: alexandria.2100 will have a dwim symbol
2019-12-05T19:30:23Z Xach: a full universal-time would be better and more precise
2019-12-05T19:30:39Z Xach: alexandria.3784563027
2019-12-05T19:30:56Z _death: yeah, and you could use fractions if necessary
2019-12-05T19:31:06Z Xach: oh, good call!
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2019-12-05T19:33:15Z _death: one issue with this scheme is that we're bad at deadlines
2019-12-05T19:34:15Z _death: always multiply by pi..
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2019-12-05T19:43:23Z _death: names are only one facet of the versioning problem.. I don't know that there exists a satisfactory solution, other than designing perfect software..
2019-12-05T19:45:06Z _death: and why does alexandria have to grow new functionality? put things in your personal library.. but alexandria could definitely be improved in what it already does
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2019-12-05T19:47:23Z pfdietz: The reason to stick things in a de facto standardized library is to enable others to more easily understand your code.
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2019-12-05T19:54:34Z _death: pfdietz: ok, but how do good standards come about? I think the way is you have a bunch of approaches and then one prevails and becomes a defacto standard.. CL got lucky with innovation (when they unified a bunch of things)
2019-12-05T19:55:49Z _death: pfdietz: so such a library must be conservative.. and it needs to be stable
2019-12-05T19:55:52Z pfdietz: The benefit arises regardless of how the standardization comes about, so that's a separate issue.
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2019-12-05T20:00:20Z _death: maybe a CDR needs to be evolved that specifies what could go into alexandria.2
2019-12-05T20:01:09Z _death: last CDR is from 2013..
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2019-12-05T20:04:48Z jackdaniel: I'm sure they would be more frequent if implementers were implementing them
2019-12-05T20:05:03Z _death: pfdietz: maybe for understanding a good specification/manual is more useful for understanding
2019-12-05T20:05:35Z phoe: _death: yet another solution for CLtL4 would be to deprecate :USE in DEFPACKAGE now that PLNs are ubiquitous
2019-12-05T20:05:48Z phoe: this way you cannot break code by adding new symbols
2019-12-05T20:05:54Z _death: jackdaniel: well, here I'm talking about a CDR for a new version of a library, not an implementation
2019-12-05T20:06:45Z _death: jackdaniel: it could in principle have different implementations, but you don't need to convince multiple vendors, just the authors of the single library
2019-12-05T20:07:01Z sjl_: phoe: (common-lisp:defun square (x) (common-lisp:* x x)) seems unpleasant.
2019-12-05T20:07:21Z galdor: Xach: the whole :use thing feels silly to me, it's a death sentence if libraries cannot be extended because they might break someone
2019-12-05T20:07:30Z galdor: if someone updates, it's up to them to check the new version
2019-12-05T20:08:00Z phoe: sjl_: that's the obvious downside, yes.
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2019-12-05T20:08:17Z galdor: I do not like :use anyway, I wish the standard could be updated so that package local nicknames become universal
2019-12-05T20:08:18Z _death: phoe: personally I've no experience with PLNs, and I'm not sure about others.. also I remember criticizing it on theoretical grounds..
2019-12-05T20:08:55Z phoe: galdor: they are universal enough already. From the alive FLOSS implementations, only CLISP needs to implement them, and someday I may do that myself.
2019-12-05T20:09:39Z phoe: _death: I know a few lispers who are using them commonly now that they are available mostly everywhere
2019-12-05T20:09:39Z _death: phoe: are there any large systems that use PLNs
2019-12-05T20:09:51Z jackdaniel: one could argue, that packages are not very flexible and all that use pln and stuff are just workaround over their quirks
2019-12-05T20:10:02Z phoe: mfiano's stuff, I guess
2019-12-05T20:10:13Z phoe: Shinmera's as well AFAIR
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2019-12-05T20:12:06Z _death: phoe: where is the spec for PLN?
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2019-12-05T20:12:26Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: what is your problem with UIOP?
2019-12-05T20:12:38Z jackdaniel: I've said it, read above
2019-12-05T20:13:16Z jmercouris: all you said is that it was a PITA
2019-12-05T20:13:18Z jmercouris: you didn't say why
2019-12-05T20:13:29Z phoe: _death: oh boy, here we go again
2019-12-05T20:13:31Z jackdaniel: no, I've said more, I recommend more careful reading ;)
2019-12-05T20:13:43Z jmercouris: that you have to manually accquire a new version?
2019-12-05T20:14:02Z jackdaniel: that and that it is a preloaded system
2019-12-05T20:14:21Z jmercouris: what does that mean? what is a 'preloaded system'?
2019-12-05T20:14:30Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2019-12-05T20:14:41Z copec: merkle tree based loading by hash
2019-12-05T20:15:12Z jmercouris: that is a thing in Lisp?
2019-12-05T20:15:23Z jackdaniel: common lisp does not specify things like systems
2019-12-05T20:15:39Z pjb: Well, it defines some system construction operators :-)
2019-12-05T20:15:41Z jackdaniel: preloaded system is asdf concept
2019-12-05T20:15:41Z phoe: basically UIOP is already there whenever you load ASDF since ASDF depends on UIOP
2019-12-05T20:15:48Z phoe: and almost literally everything depends on ASDF
2019-12-05T20:16:06Z _death: *a variant of UIOP
2019-12-05T20:16:06Z jmercouris: I don't understand how that is a problem
2019-12-05T20:16:08Z phoe: so you can treat UIOP as preloaded and/or always available that way
2019-12-05T20:16:11Z pjb: Chapter 24. System Construction
2019-12-05T20:16:25Z jackdaniel wishes jmercouris enlightenment to understand, in a meantime he goes to rest
2019-12-05T20:16:30Z copec: jmercouris: CL itself only has packages and symbols
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2019-12-05T20:16:39Z jmercouris: copec: yes
2019-12-05T20:16:39Z jackdaniel: phoe: preloaded-system is actually a class in asdf
2019-12-05T20:16:46Z phoe: jackdaniel: oh!
2019-12-05T20:17:01Z phoe: pjb: that chapter is funny, it is named System Construction but it doesn't define what a system is or how to construct it
2019-12-05T20:17:04Z jmercouris: so a preloaded-system is a type of system?
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2019-12-05T20:17:16Z jmercouris: I assume that UIOP cannot be loaded as a normal system since ASDF needs it to load systems
2019-12-05T20:17:20Z jmercouris: and I guess that this has some limitations
2019-12-05T20:17:21Z pjb: phoe: definitely. No definition of a system in view.
2019-12-05T20:17:24Z jackdaniel: there is also an immutable-system and such
2019-12-05T20:17:39Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: you are wrong, it can be loaded
2019-12-05T20:17:44Z jackdaniel: you may even load a newer version
2019-12-05T20:17:54Z jmercouris: hm
2019-12-05T20:18:00Z jmercouris: well, I guess it doesn't matter enough to me to know
2019-12-05T20:18:05Z jackdaniel: good!
2019-12-05T20:18:44Z jmercouris: I don't kknow if that is good, but I'm not particularly interested in cl systems as a computer scientist
2019-12-05T20:18:57Z jmercouris: I think of the tools as a means to an end
2019-12-05T20:19:19Z jackdaniel: wow, I believe that's  unique
2019-12-05T20:19:32Z copec: A lot of individuals have thought about the concepts that made it into the standard
2019-12-05T20:19:39Z copec: over a long period of time
2019-12-05T20:19:45Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: are you being sarcastic?
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2019-12-05T20:20:00Z jackdaniel: a little
2019-12-05T20:21:03Z _death: phoe: is this the spec for PLN? https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames/blob/master/docs.org
2019-12-05T20:21:58Z jmercouris: _death: Package local nicknames already work in ASDF
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2019-12-05T20:22:13Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: they have nothing to do with asdf
2019-12-05T20:22:25Z phoe: _death: thank you for that link, I laughed hard at that
2019-12-05T20:22:40Z jmercouris: there is some sort of mode where each file has its own package or something
2019-12-05T20:22:44Z jmercouris: I can't remember what it is called
2019-12-05T20:22:46Z _death: phoe: I suppose sbcl's manual can serve as a useful document on how to start using them
2019-12-05T20:23:09Z _death: phoe: but is there a neutral spec?
2019-12-05T20:23:25Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: plesae do not confuse concepts. they are called package-inferred-systems
2019-12-05T20:23:46Z jackdaniel: _death: I've implemented PLN from @nikodemus writeup
2019-12-05T20:23:51Z Bike: when i did PLN for clasp i just used sbcl's manual as a spec
2019-12-05T20:23:56Z jackdaniel: ^
2019-12-05T20:24:04Z jmercouris: ah yes, that is what I was thinking of
2019-12-05T20:24:17Z jmercouris: package local nicknames are indeed part of SBCL
2019-12-05T20:24:18Z copec: jmercouris: https://davazp.net/2014/11/26/modern-library-with-asdf-and-package-inferred-system.html
2019-12-05T20:24:19Z _death: so that's a good candidate for a CDR, and it will be a success - vendors already adopted it :)
2019-12-05T20:24:26Z jmercouris: yes, I know I am just tired and a bit confused
2019-12-05T20:25:17Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: one strategy to deal with inner confusion is not to make statements to avoid risk of sarcasm ,-)
2019-12-05T20:25:36Z jmercouris: I'm not worried about people being sarcastic
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2019-12-05T20:25:48Z jmercouris: every truck driver from my village knows how to make 'clever' sarcastic comments
2019-12-05T20:26:09Z jackdaniel: but you may be worried with spreading misinformation due to lack of knowledge (or confusion)
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2019-12-05T20:26:32Z jmercouris: I'm not so worried about confusing _death
2019-12-05T20:26:43Z jmercouris: but in general, I try to avoid spreading misinformation, yes
2019-12-05T20:26:49Z jmercouris: however that doesn't mean I don't make mistakes!
2019-12-05T20:27:09Z phoe: _death: no, I'm not aware of one, and it would be good if one existed.
2019-12-05T20:27:30Z copec: Is there any sort of a shim library/de-facto-standard in between loading packages and build systems?
2019-12-05T20:27:33Z efm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2019-12-05T20:27:40Z copec: so like, multiple build systems
2019-12-05T20:27:48Z copec: or package systems
2019-12-05T20:29:26Z phoe: copec: yes, and it's called ASDF
2019-12-05T20:31:03Z mfiano: hooks like perform-op
2019-12-05T20:31:37Z jmercouris: what was there before asdf? just loading files from one 'main' file?
2019-12-05T20:31:56Z jackdaniel: defsystem was not uncommon in lisp history
2019-12-05T20:32:02Z jackdaniel: asdf is just one of a few incarnations
2019-12-05T20:32:12Z jackdaniel: i.e mk-defsystem created by Mark Kantrovitz
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2019-12-05T20:32:34Z jackdaniel: sbt - simple-minded build template is another (less popular)
2019-12-05T20:32:37Z jmercouris: what makes ASDF better than the others? why is it the 'de-facto' standard?
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2019-12-05T20:32:54Z jackdaniel: I suspect taht some pre-common-lisp implementations could have defsystem builtin
2019-12-05T20:33:12Z _death: asdf used to be a simple, portable library that solved deficiencies in previous solutions
2019-12-05T20:33:20Z jackdaniel: it is a de facto standard because almost all libraries 2000+ use asdf to define their systems
2019-12-05T20:33:58Z jmercouris: _death: what happened to it to make it not so?
2019-12-05T20:34:12Z phoe: _death: now it is a complex, somehow portable library that has invented its own deficiencies to make up for all the deficiencies of older systems that got forgotten
2019-12-05T20:34:27Z _death: the basic human need to grow things beyond its control
2019-12-05T20:34:30Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: well yeah, that which is used extensively is be definition a de-facto standard, my question is *why* is it a de-facto standard? why was it so heavily adopted?
2019-12-05T20:35:12Z jmercouris: _death: can you name some things it grew which in your opinion were not necessary?
2019-12-05T20:35:12Z jackdaniel: I don't know why, popularity is a matter of luck and marketing
2019-12-05T20:36:03Z _death: for each feature you can find a locally good rationale
2019-12-05T20:36:13Z jmercouris: does it have any 'killer-features' as compared to other defsystem tools?
2019-12-05T20:36:58Z _death: maybe you'll be interested in reading a book called Tools for Conviviality
2019-12-05T20:37:00Z jmercouris: _death: given your power of hindsight, which features are, in your opinion, a bad idea
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2019-12-05T20:37:20Z mfiano: uiop
2019-12-05T20:37:25Z _death: jmercouris: the killer feature is being adopted by implementors
2019-12-05T20:37:38Z jmercouris: hm, not a lot of love for UIOP it seems
2019-12-05T20:37:41Z copec: It seems to have been the first defsystem tool that solved most of the major problems and was usable
2019-12-05T20:38:07Z copec: Like most pieces of software in their respective area that become de-facto
2019-12-05T20:38:08Z jmercouris: is it a winner-take all type system?
2019-12-05T20:38:21Z jmercouris: the 'system' being the CL eco system
2019-12-05T20:38:26Z jackdaniel: since many people do uneducated decisions mere veolcity gives you a big bonus for popularity
2019-12-05T20:38:35Z jackdaniel: like: commit last day vs no changes for last year
2019-12-05T20:38:37Z jmercouris: I'm just wondering if some other tool could usurp ASDF by perhaps providing compatibility but with a new codebase
2019-12-05T20:38:58Z phoe: the question is how do you implement a thing like ASDF without a UIOP beneath it
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2019-12-05T20:39:13Z jackdaniel: mimicing asdf api for 95% of systems in QL is fairly easy
2019-12-05T20:39:15Z phoe: or rather, without something that will abstract away some of the filesystem and OS details
2019-12-05T20:39:19Z _death: jmercouris: personally I'm avoiding complex use of asdf, so I don't have much trouble with it.. when it annoys me, it's small things
2019-12-05T20:39:25Z jackdaniel: 200 lines of code is enough to a) fool ql, b) load systems
2019-12-05T20:39:26Z |3b|: _death: sbcl package-local-nicknames was based on my spec, but i'd say sbcl's docs/implementation is the current 'official' definition
2019-12-05T20:39:34Z jmercouris: _death: I noticed you'd used package inferred systems in d-bus
2019-12-05T20:39:41Z jmercouris: at least I believe it was that library
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2019-12-05T20:40:08Z |3b| isn't sure how much if anything was changed in sbcl's version though
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2019-12-05T20:40:15Z _death: jmercouris: but I remember reading the old asdf and feeling that I understand most of it.. nowadays I wouldn't bother reading asdf to understand it, just the parts I need to understand
2019-12-05T20:40:28Z jmercouris: my biggest complaint with ASDF is the M-. we had talked about, and the very cryptic error messages when things don't load
2019-12-05T20:40:54Z _death: 3b: ok
2019-12-05T20:41:08Z jmercouris: why was the link to your spec considered funny?
2019-12-05T20:41:11Z jmercouris: I don't understand that
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2019-12-05T20:41:25Z _death: jmercouris: guess because it's from 2013 or so
2019-12-05T20:41:47Z jmercouris: I'm not incapable of humor, I just don't see how that would be funny in any circumstance
2019-12-05T20:41:52Z _death: jmercouris: when it was not yet polished
2019-12-05T20:42:10Z jmercouris: still, I've never laughed at reading the draft of an essay 'lol! this document in progress!'
2019-12-05T20:42:12Z jmercouris: I just don't get it
2019-12-05T20:42:13Z mfiano: The biggest issue with a CL build system is in a modern internet-connected age, is no missing feature of ASDF - it's packages loaded into a flat, global namespace. RENAME-PACKAGE hacks can only get you so far. If we ever moved beyond Quicklisp to support features such as multiple versioned transitive dependencies, maybe even some files LOAD'ed at runtime, we have some issues that can only really be
2019-12-05T20:42:15Z mfiano: solved by another convention like PLN that needs to be widely adopted by implementors.
2019-12-05T20:42:19Z _death: jmercouris: yes, dbus uses package-inferred-systems... I think that's a good feature of asdf for many kinds of projects
2019-12-05T20:42:57Z jmercouris: mfiano: yeah that's the challenge, not every implementation supports PLN
2019-12-05T20:43:16Z jmercouris: _death: why do you think so? I was under the exact opposite feeling, I would be interested in your rationale
2019-12-05T20:43:18Z jackdaniel: mfiano: beach wrote a specification for global environments which may be different for different code
2019-12-05T20:43:47Z jackdaniel: I find it very appealing from the perspective of creating multi-versioned systems in a single image
2019-12-05T20:43:56Z jmercouris: is it something that could be built on-top of current implementations?
2019-12-05T20:43:58Z phoe: jmercouris: only CLISP of the FLOSS world doesn't support PLNs.
2019-12-05T20:44:02Z phoe: and I plan on fixing this one day
2019-12-05T20:44:09Z jmercouris: phoe: does anyone actually use CLIPS?
2019-12-05T20:44:11Z jmercouris: CLISP*
2019-12-05T20:44:16Z phoe: jmercouris: yes
2019-12-05T20:44:29Z jmercouris: I still don't understand why anyone would, we've had this conversation before
2019-12-05T20:44:33Z jmercouris: I can't imagine using it when SBCL exists
2019-12-05T20:44:42Z phoe: and even if no one did, this only strengthens PLN position
2019-12-05T20:45:08Z jmercouris: can someone explain why the icon is a menorah?
2019-12-05T20:45:14Z phoe: jmercouris: yes, the CLISP manual
2019-12-05T20:45:15Z |3b|: clisp can (usually) be used to build sbcl from just a c compiler if nothing else
2019-12-05T20:45:25Z mfiano: jmercouris: Not every implementation ever will. Some are abandoned, or aren't even conformant yet (GCL)
2019-12-05T20:45:42Z phoe: https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/faq.html#faq-menorah-why
2019-12-05T20:45:43Z jackdaniel: you need more empathy ,)
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2019-12-05T20:45:49Z mfiano: But 6 popular choices do, and it's enough
2019-12-05T20:45:52Z jackdaniel: from examples: clisp is the only implementation which works on minix
2019-12-05T20:45:55Z |3b|: and lower memory usage/executable size still matters for some things, also possibly supports some more platforms than the others
2019-12-05T20:46:01Z phoe: mfiano: six? I only counted 5 last time
2019-12-05T20:46:11Z jmercouris: why would anyone use minix in 2019?
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2019-12-05T20:46:23Z phoe: why would anyone use CL in 2019
2019-12-05T20:46:39Z mfiano: SBCL, CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL...yeah i should learn to count
2019-12-05T20:46:46Z phoe: seriously, it's the same class of stupid questions that we are iterating on now
2019-12-05T20:46:51Z jmercouris: phoe: I'm sorry, but CL can still be ran on modern hardware
2019-12-05T20:46:59Z phoe: jmercouris: so can minix and CLISP
2019-12-05T20:47:19Z jmercouris: Minix offers literally no advantages, but OKK
2019-12-05T20:47:21Z phoe: see your favorite modern Intel CPU for an example of hardware that runs minix by default
2019-12-05T20:47:34Z jmercouris: yes, we are all aware of that
2019-12-05T20:47:46Z phoe: so, let's kindly take this discussion to #lispcafe
2019-12-05T20:48:39Z phoe: mfiano: CLISP will be the sixth when PLNs get implemented there
2019-12-05T20:48:43Z jackdaniel: "it doesn't meet my needs hence it is not needed at all"
2019-12-05T20:49:13Z jmercouris: every CL has some unique feature and reason for existing, in my opinion, the ones for CLISP are not there
2019-12-05T20:49:18Z jmercouris: and it has no justification for continued existence
2019-12-05T20:49:42Z |3b|: jmercouris: regarding humor of that pln spec, if nothing else, the ratio of "how should this work" to "it should work this way" is amusingly high now that i look at it again :p
2019-12-05T20:50:25Z mfiano: CLISP supports arbitrary floating point reprentations. You can calculate pi to the Nth digit if you want just by printing PI with some arbitrary precision. It also has very nice memory profiling support for #'room, and a bunch of other niceties.
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2019-12-05T20:50:39Z phoe: > and it has no justification for continued existence
2019-12-05T20:51:03Z phoe: what the fuck, seriously, today I learn that software needs to be justified in order to exist
2019-12-05T20:51:04Z Xach: jmercouris: things exist because people who want to work on it continue to work on it, and effort and enthusiasm go a long way (and are not easily conjured up or transferred around)
2019-12-05T20:51:25Z _death: jmercouris: basically each file defines its own package, so you don't feel like you may be stepping on some other module's toes when defining names.. with principled use of :use and :import-from you know exactly the symbols available.. you export just the names you want to export, and it's easy to import them in another file.. factoring a project to use package-inferred-systems sometimes leads you to discover issues of modularity, e.g.,
2019-12-05T20:51:26Z _death: you didn't expect this piece of code to use that functionality from the other piece of code, but it happened because it's too convenient when they define symbols in the same package.. also each file becomes a system you can load, and loads just the stuff it needs.. also, some modules may only use :cl and not import any other stuff.. those are now self-contained modules, where in ordinary use they would start with in-package and the
2019-12-05T20:51:26Z _death: defpackage is in some packages.lisp file
2019-12-05T20:51:28Z phoe: how do I explain https://github.com/phoe/string-pokemonize in that case
2019-12-05T20:51:34Z jackdaniel: I find it silly to think that worthwile endavours are directed by reasons for existing -- I wouldn't use CL if I weren't taking the fun factor into account :)
2019-12-05T20:51:36Z copec: clisp compiles on every architecture, it is in every netbsd pkgsrc tree, for instance
2019-12-05T20:51:47Z phoe: or https://github.com/phoe/quicklisp-quackload
2019-12-05T20:52:17Z jackdaniel: n.b I think that PG recently wrote an essay about similar subject
2019-12-05T20:52:24Z jackdaniel: (recently)
2019-12-05T20:52:40Z mfiano: Above all, it is a nice addition to CI for testing conformance for a particular project (or finding implementation bugs to report)
2019-12-05T20:52:43Z phoe: jackdaniel: http://www.paulgraham.com/genius.html ?
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2019-12-05T20:53:04Z jackdaniel: yes, that's the one
2019-12-05T20:53:18Z jmercouris: _death: I guess it could be a very effective way of debugging your own code :-D converting to them and back! I do find it however very unnatural, maybe if I give it a try for 3 months or something I would change my mind though, I have half a mind to try to do so after what you wrote
2019-12-05T20:53:46Z jmercouris: phoe: firstly, I think that is a bit too aggressive, secondly I did not say software needs justification to exist, I simply said that CLISP has no justification to exist
2019-12-05T20:53:46Z phoe: jackdaniel: I kinda agree, a surprising lot of free software exists because someone wanted to write it for no particular reason
2019-12-05T20:54:05Z phoe: jmercouris: CLISP is software, hence you implied that
2019-12-05T20:54:42Z phoe: jackdaniel: this, plus software that scratched someone's itch and then grew, plus some happy accidents, plus someone's personal frustrations
2019-12-05T20:54:50Z phoe: and we have a pretty huge chunk of free software
2019-12-05T20:55:23Z _death: jmercouris: it also makes it easier to thing about interfaces explicitly, since you have to decide what to export and from where
2019-12-05T20:55:28Z _death: *think
2019-12-05T20:56:13Z jmercouris: phoe: so what, why does that make you so angry? it is my belief that software *should* have a purpose for existing, even if that purpose is the amusement of the authors. When we are talking about CLISP as an implementation though, if it has no greater purpose beyond the author's amusement, why should the community care if it implements PLN or not?
2019-12-05T20:56:35Z phoe: > if it has no greater purpose beyond the author's amusement
2019-12-05T20:56:47Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: the one who is agitated is you. clisp has multiple unique featues, one is that it is the most portable
2019-12-05T20:57:00Z jmercouris: _death: CL has made me very lax with that regard, I used to consider that a lot more back in high school when programming in basic :-D
2019-12-05T20:57:00Z jackdaniel: second is that it is the only one I'm aware of which implements JIT (not ahead of time compilation)
2019-12-05T20:57:11Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I'm not angry at all, phoe was the one who swore
2019-12-05T20:57:13Z phoe: jmercouris: falsum sequitur quodlibet
2019-12-05T20:57:33Z jackdaniel: I'm saying taht you are agitated and "amused" why people do use clisp
2019-12-05T20:57:46Z jmercouris: I didn't say that at all
2019-12-05T20:57:48Z phoe: CLISP likely exists to conform to ANSI CL, for me that is a purpose good enough
2019-12-05T20:57:49Z _death: I think clisp is a cool implementation.. it has a good manual, quite portable, the code is not hard to understand.. was the first implementation I used
2019-12-05T20:57:51Z jackdaniel: note that you've brought the topic that "you don't understand why people do use clisp"
2019-12-05T20:57:52Z jmercouris: I just think it is pointless
2019-12-05T20:58:27Z jmercouris: naja, seid nicht so sauer!
2019-12-05T20:58:33Z phoe: it's trivial to neglect the upsides of any piece of software and, from that point on, proceed about how it has no right to exist
2019-12-05T20:58:52Z jmercouris: right != justification
2019-12-05T20:59:00Z phoe: s/right/justification/
2019-12-05T20:59:05Z Xach: Is anyone here present going to SBCL 20 next week?
2019-12-05T20:59:06Z jackdaniel: one could argue, that next browser has no real justification to exist ,-)
2019-12-05T20:59:17Z jmercouris: well, they would be 100% correct :-D
2019-12-05T20:59:36Z phoe: I could do a low kick and start rambling about how nextbrowser is pointless purely for the purpose of demonstrating what I just said, but that's as pointless as rambling about clisp
2019-12-05T20:59:37Z pjb: jmercouris: Why would the lack of diversity in an ecosystem be bad, in 2019?
2019-12-05T20:59:51Z jmercouris: pjb: I didn't say that!
2019-12-05T21:00:06Z pjb: Just to explain why it's importan to run minix and other systems!
2019-12-05T21:00:09Z pjb: +t
2019-12-05T21:00:10Z jmercouris: phoe: well, saying you could do a low kick and then not doing it is effectively the same thing :-D
2019-12-05T21:00:13Z _death: only clisp has a menorah.. which will be useful soon
2019-12-05T21:00:28Z jmercouris: will the menorah light our way after the apocalpyse?
2019-12-05T21:00:29Z phoe: OK then, clisp exists e.g. to increase diversity in the CL ecosystem
2019-12-05T21:00:39Z pjb: jmercouris: When I'll be retired, I will switch to openbsd instead of linux…
2019-12-05T21:00:44Z phoe: purpose? purpose. OK, let's move on
2019-12-05T21:00:57Z jmercouris: pjb: start today! BSD > Linux
2019-12-05T21:01:06Z pjb: Customers…
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2019-12-05T21:35:18Z mister_m: does anyone know if the SBCL 20 talks are going to be put online?
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2019-12-06T03:17:49Z joinr: Is it expected behavior that using varargs within a recursive labels form will cause an infinite loop?
2019-12-06T03:18:01Z joinr: given:
2019-12-06T03:18:03Z joinr: (defun  f (&rest args)            (LABELS ((aux (X &REST XS)                      (PROGN                        (IF (not (null xs))                            (PROGN (PPRINT X) (aux (FIRST XS) (rest XS)))))))             (apply #'aux args)))
2019-12-06T03:18:05Z no-defun-allowed: varargs?
2019-12-06T03:18:09Z joinr: &rest
2019-12-06T03:18:16Z joinr: ugh, sorry, formatting is off..
2019-12-06T03:18:37Z no-defun-allowed: Well, there's no requirement for tail recursion to work in CL.
2019-12-06T03:18:40Z joinr: if I invoke that with (f 0 1 2 3 4 5 6)  on either sbcl or clisp
2019-12-06T03:18:47Z joinr: I get a infinite recursion.
2019-12-06T03:18:52Z joinr: tail or no
2019-12-06T03:19:23Z no-defun-allowed: Or do you mean that it never returns?
2019-12-06T03:19:24Z joinr: expectation is that the null condition will be met eventually and computation stops.  Instead, you get Nil printing out
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2019-12-06T03:20:33Z joinr: expectation for the input would be, printing the numbers 0 to 6 then return
2019-12-06T03:21:21Z joinr: this is a small reproducible case for a larger metprogramming deal.  I thought labels would work fine (and it does) seemingly as long as you don't go into &rest arg territory and try to apply.
2019-12-06T03:21:28Z Bike: you have (aux (first xs) (rest xs))
2019-12-06T03:21:34Z Bike: so you're always calling aux with two arguments
2019-12-06T03:21:40Z Bike: so xs is never null
2019-12-06T03:21:47Z joinr: ah...
2019-12-06T03:21:51Z joinr: so I need to apply within the body?
2019-12-06T03:21:52Z Bike: you meant (apply #'aux (first xs) (rest xs)), probably
2019-12-06T03:21:52Z no-defun-allowed: Is there a -- oh, yeah, that's probably important.
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2019-12-06T03:22:13Z joinr: beautiful, thanks for the eyes.
2019-12-06T03:22:36Z Bike: or just (apply #'aux xs) i guess
2019-12-06T03:23:32Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure if you intend for this to happen, but (f 0) will print nothing.
2019-12-06T03:23:45Z Bike: yeah it drops the last value
2019-12-06T03:23:56Z Bike: dunno why so i'm gonna leave it as an exercise to ze reader
2019-12-06T03:23:59Z joinr: this is more of a toy problem, the exact behavior isn't as interesting though.
2019-12-06T03:24:10Z Bike: oh, no, i get it
2019-12-06T03:24:28Z joinr: the non-terminating phenomena was what got me.  totally forgot I'd have to apply on recurse.
2019-12-06T03:24:35Z joinr: which works
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2019-12-06T03:34:24Z lottaquestions: Hi all, is there a way of listing all the global variables in a running instance in slime?
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2019-12-06T03:37:52Z Bike: Sort of. You can do (let (c) (do-all-symbols (s c) (when (boundp s) (push s c))))
2019-12-06T03:38:08Z Bike: On my system there are 5493, so be careful
2019-12-06T03:38:21Z Bike: technically there could also be variables named by inaccessible symbols, but that doesn't happen much
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2019-12-06T03:39:12Z lottaquestions: thanks. Worth a try
2019-12-06T03:39:41Z no-defun-allowed: (do-symbols (s) (when (and (boundp s) (eql (symbol-package s) package)) (print s))) will print all the symbols that are bound in the current package, which isn't all of them, but might be what you want.
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2019-12-06T05:11:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-06T06:24:07Z beach: jackdaniel: Thanks for the link to Graham's article.  He seems to put his finger on something important.
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2019-12-06T07:06:44Z boeg: beach: mornings!
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2019-12-06T07:07:25Z boeg: second day with sick kid at home, keeping me up all night. Think I'm gonna see if I can optimize on my advent of code adventure from yesterday
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2019-12-06T07:17:45Z beach: Sounds good.
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2019-12-06T08:05:22Z boeg: Is there a built in like `intersection` for lists, but for hash tables?
2019-12-06T08:08:25Z boeg: testing for the key being in both hash tables, not the content
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2019-12-06T08:11:05Z Shinmera: no
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2019-12-06T08:15:44Z boeg: Shinmera: Alright, thanks
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2019-12-06T08:54:13Z ralt: so uh
2019-12-06T08:54:34Z ralt: did anyone write some ECL funsies to write emacs modules in CL? http://diobla.info/blog-archive/modules-tut.html
2019-12-06T08:54:58Z phoe: no idea if that's been done, #ecl might know
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2019-12-06T09:45:25Z boeg: if I have a hash table `hash-t` and two variables `key-a` and `key-b` bound to `(cons 1 0)` and I do `setf (gethash key-a hash-t) 1)` why can't I do `(gethash key-b hash-t)` to access the value stored at `key-a`? My guess is that the key where I stored the `1` is a reference to the `key-a` variable, and so even though `key-b` contains a similar looking cons, it's not the same, so it doesn't work, but how do I make it work?
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2019-12-06T09:47:23Z no-defun-allowed: EQ and EQL will not work, and EQUAL and EQUALP will.
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2019-12-06T09:49:19Z boeg: right, maybe I should check again, because I blindly tried telling gethash to use equal with `:test #'equal` but it didn't work and I just ... yeah, take a look at the documentation again :)
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2019-12-06T09:49:47Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, the tests have to be provided in MAKE-HASH-TABLE.
2019-12-06T09:50:20Z boeg: no-defun-allowed: oh, alright, thanks
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2019-12-06T10:24:59Z pjb: clhs equal
2019-12-06T10:24:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm
2019-12-06T10:25:32Z pjb: (equal (cons 1 0) (cons 1 0)) #| --> t |#
2019-12-06T10:26:33Z boeg: pjb: indeed - problem was I hadn't configured the hash-table to use it
2019-12-06T10:26:47Z boeg: pjb: it's working and my advent of code is now speedy
2019-12-06T10:27:01Z boeg: went from maybe 5+ minutes to sub zero second
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2019-12-06T10:27:52Z pjb: Good.
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2019-12-06T10:29:13Z boeg: yes i feel like advent of code is a good way to learn a language for me
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2019-12-06T10:30:14Z boeg: It throws you around in corners you wouldn't have thought of yourself. I have been reading practical common lisp and land of lisp a bit, but there's nothing like real experience, even though advent of code is taking me soo much longer compared to if I was doing it in a language I know better
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2019-12-06T10:56:35Z heisig: Speaking of advent of code - anyone interested in sharing solutions?  Here are mine: https://github.com/marcoheisig/adventofcode
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2019-12-06T10:59:15Z no-defun-allowed: Morning heisig
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2019-12-06T11:01:03Z no-defun-allowed: Should I start doing those kind of problem sets? Usually I find approaching whatever comes to mind more enjoyable, but I've heard several times that usually those tend to not be unfamiliar or difficult.
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2019-12-06T11:25:45Z jackdaniel: beach: sure
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2019-12-06T12:19:21Z boeg: So whats a good source for how to set up a common lisp project? Right now I just create .lisp files and manually use quickload to load dependencies - well, dependency, I have only used a single library yet, split-sequence :P - but I was thinking if theres a good source to create a project for my advent of code project where I can have it handle bringing in split-sequence and so on
2019-12-06T12:20:57Z pjb: create an asd file and quickload it!
2019-12-06T12:21:11Z earl-ducaine: boeg: are you using quicklisp?
2019-12-06T12:22:26Z boeg: yes, I have been using quickload, earl-ducaine
2019-12-06T12:23:14Z _death: http://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/ see section titled "Systems"
2019-12-06T12:23:37Z earl-ducaine: boeg: You'll find all the sources of the projects that used at: quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/
2019-12-06T12:23:58Z boeg: pjb: ill check that out
2019-12-06T12:24:18Z earl-ducaine: boeg: each one will have at least one *.asdf so you'll have a bunch of examples of how to write them.
2019-12-06T12:24:19Z boeg: _death: thanks, ill check it out
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2019-12-06T12:24:43Z boeg: earl-ducaine: alright, thanks!
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2019-12-06T12:26:46Z earl-ducaine: boeg: ASDF has a comprehensive manual, so you should get that. But a warning, it's quite terse.
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2019-12-06T12:27:20Z boeg: earl-ducaine: I'm checking out the stevelosh article right now, and then I'll see afterwards if i'm still missing things :)
2019-12-06T12:27:24Z earl-ducaine: boeg: It has few examples and for stupid people like myself it can be frusterating to use on its own.
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2019-12-06T12:29:35Z earl-ducaine: boeg: one thing that you'll find quite convenient once you have your ASDF project set up is creating a symbolic filesystem link to it at: quicklisp/local-projects/
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2019-12-06T12:30:04Z earl-ducaine: boeg: Then you'll be able to load it using quicklisp! e.g. (ql:quickload :my-new-project)
2019-12-06T12:30:14Z boeg: earl-ducaine: interesting, thanks!
2019-12-06T12:30:24Z boeg: ill see if I can figure it out :P
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2019-12-06T14:31:40Z didi: Can I control what `read-line' interprets as a newline?
2019-12-06T14:34:31Z dlowe: didi: not really
2019-12-06T14:34:39Z didi: dlowe: Bummer.
2019-12-06T14:35:02Z dlowe: writing your own read-until-char is pretty easy
2019-12-06T14:35:44Z dlowe: now that would be a good addition to alexandria, were they making additions
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2019-12-06T14:35:45Z didi: dlowe: I might, tho it needs to read until a sequence of two chars.
2019-12-06T14:36:02Z dlowe: didi: are you parsing \r\n?
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2019-12-06T14:36:22Z didi: dlowe: That too. Input files be crazy.
2019-12-06T14:36:31Z dlowe: read-until-string would be good too
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2019-12-06T14:38:05Z didi: Each tabulated data file use a different convention to separate records, fields, to escape characters...
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2019-12-06T14:40:09Z dlowe: yeah, well, that's why everyone got excitable over xml when it came out
2019-12-06T14:40:27Z dlowe: as awful as it was, it was nice to have something standard with momentum behind it
2019-12-06T14:41:08Z didi: dlowe: Agreed. Tho there is a lot of broken XML out there. Also, they love JSON now.
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2019-12-06T14:44:39Z dlowe: web folks love JSON, business folks still love XML AFAIK, but yeah, no one respected XML enough to use the encoders.
2019-12-06T14:45:08Z White_Flame: s/love/'need'/
2019-12-06T14:45:53Z dlowe: "are compelled (for reasons) to use"
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2019-12-06T14:53:12Z White_Flame: because they're compelled and don't actually love it, they don't care about implementing it properly
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2019-12-06T14:55:27Z dlowe: I disagree with your causation.  I think caring about proper implementation is only weakly correlated.
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2019-12-06T14:58:07Z White_Flame: could be, but that's the source of a lot of "respecting" the XML spec
2019-12-06T14:58:10Z White_Flame: *lack of
2019-12-06T14:58:21Z pfdietz: I find myself using json quite a bit even in lisp.
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2019-12-06T14:59:38Z dlowe: the other source is that C++ libraries for emitting XML were (and perhaps still are) crazy terrible
2019-12-06T14:59:54Z dlowe: you can make a much nicer thing in lisp
2019-12-06T15:00:47Z dlowe: (encode-xml `(taggy :mc "data" (mctagface "moar data")))
2019-12-06T15:04:41Z White_Flame: yep, I've done simple HTML encoders from scratch, since they're like 10 linues
2019-12-06T15:04:43Z White_Flame: *lines
2019-12-06T15:05:59Z didi: White_Flame: Did you try writing HTML decoders? Path to madness.
2019-12-06T15:07:22Z _death: you can use flexi-streams's :eol-style
2019-12-06T15:07:33Z didi: _death: Thank you.
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2019-12-06T15:12:24Z didi: Those who say "don't use regular expressions to parse html" are only partially correct. HTML in the wild is a total mess.
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2019-12-06T15:14:00Z phoe: if lispers closed parens as consistently as html writers closed tags then Lisp would fail to compile in 99 cases out of 98
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2019-12-06T15:17:26Z dlowe: didi: I think the advice is actually to use a library (i.e. someone else's regular expressions) to parse html
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2019-12-06T15:34:58Z White_Flame: didi: yeah, decoding HTML is left to the browser ;)
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2019-12-06T16:10:02Z Shinmera: The call for papers for ELS20 is now online! https://european-lisp-symposium.org/2020/index.html
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2019-12-06T16:12:08Z vms14: Guys I want to rotate a list, but rotatef does not really "rotate" it just switches positions. I'm using (cons (car (last the-list))) + (remove (car (last the-list)))
2019-12-06T16:12:25Z vms14: it works, but there is a better way to do it?
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2019-12-06T16:13:40Z vms14: I'm trying to make the snake game and the snake is just a list of points, to move the snake, I want to rotate the last item so the last part of the tail will be the head
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2019-12-06T16:14:11Z Bike: you can use butlast instead of remove.
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2019-12-06T16:14:19Z vms14: ty bike <3
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2019-12-06T16:14:19Z Bike: this is not really an efficient operation to do on lists, though.
2019-12-06T16:14:30Z vms14: how would be efficient?
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2019-12-06T16:14:43Z vms14: consing is not good anyway
2019-12-06T16:14:55Z vms14: (setf oh (cons (car (last oh)) (remove (car (last oh)) oh)))
2019-12-06T16:14:59Z vms14: this is what I'm doing
2019-12-06T16:15:18Z vms14: but I don't like that and idk why
2019-12-06T16:15:43Z Bike: well you compute LAST twice, and you use REMOVE even though you only want one element removed
2019-12-06T16:15:46Z oni-on-ion: iCons
2019-12-06T16:16:07Z dlowe: vms14: construct a circular list?
2019-12-06T16:16:13Z Bike: oh, good idea
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2019-12-06T16:16:46Z vms14: never made a circular list, I'll try, ty dlowe
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2019-12-06T16:19:33Z vms14: oh I did one while looking at the land of lisp book I guess
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2019-12-06T16:27:06Z vms14: works fine
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2019-12-06T16:27:40Z vms14: thanks dlowe, I guess I'll use that and just update the list every time I push a new item
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2019-12-06T16:28:17Z vms14: well idk if will work or I'll have troubles while pushing stuff into a circular list
2019-12-06T16:29:32Z beach: You just have to be careful what you are doing.
2019-12-06T16:29:33Z vms14: should I save the list before making it circular? so to push stuff I can update the saved list
2019-12-06T16:29:45Z dlowe: pushing stuff onto a circular list means adding it after the head
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2019-12-06T16:30:11Z beach: So you can use (push ... (cdr list))
2019-12-06T16:30:24Z beach: ... or to some later point of course.
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2019-12-06T16:33:01Z vms14: thanks for the advices
2019-12-06T16:33:20Z vms14: it looks much better than setf cons + remove + using last twice
2019-12-06T16:34:36Z beach: Here is another piece of advice for you: "advice" does not take a plural form.  It is like a substance in English.  In singular, it would be "a piece of advice".  :)
2019-12-06T16:34:54Z vms14: thanks, I really need those corrections
2019-12-06T16:35:44Z vms14: people just let me kick the English dictionary and they say nothing, but this way I'll never learn
2019-12-06T16:36:24Z beach: I am glad this is your attitude.
2019-12-06T16:36:44Z vms14: I like to learn and improve
2019-12-06T16:36:48Z clothespin: beach: any progress on second climacs?
2019-12-06T16:36:57Z vms14: this is why I come here to ask stuff
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2019-12-06T16:38:18Z beach: clothespin: Nothing substantial.  I have been giving some thought to how to compute indentation, which is why I suspended development on it.  But I am mostly working on SICL now.
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2019-12-06T16:42:03Z clothespin: beach: don't abandon it
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2019-12-06T16:44:44Z beach: I won't.
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2019-12-06T17:13:09Z pjb: minion: memo for vms14: you can rotate a list in a user friendly way with two rotatef: https://pastebin.com/32mSuwkr
2019-12-06T17:13:09Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell vms14 when he/she/it next speaks.
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2019-12-06T17:19:22Z jasom: I assume nobody is working on a port of SBCL to windows/arm64?
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2019-12-06T18:09:10Z Shinmera: jasom: not enough people are working on win/amd64 to begin with
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2019-12-06T19:00:23Z vms14: minion tell me
2019-12-06T19:00:23Z minion: vms14, memo from pjb: you can rotate a list in a user friendly way with two rotatef: https://pastebin.com/32mSuwkr
2019-12-06T19:00:52Z vms14: pjb: the link died
2019-12-06T19:00:53Z vms14: xD
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2019-12-06T19:01:31Z pjb: Already?
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2019-12-06T19:01:39Z vms14: not, sorry my bad
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2019-12-06T19:02:15Z vms14: thanks for this code
2019-12-06T19:03:02Z reepca: is there an equivalent to make-string-output-stream but for writing bytes instead of characters?
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2019-12-06T19:06:01Z vms14: reepca: you can make a "normal stream" and choose the element type you want
2019-12-06T19:06:03Z vms14: To read the raw bytes, you need to pass OPEN an :element-type argument of '(unsigned-byte 8).
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2019-12-06T19:09:13Z Bike: reepca: I think the flexi-streams library provides this.
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2019-12-06T19:14:54Z pjb: reepca: there is, but do you realize that you can just as well and even more efficiently just write into a vector?
2019-12-06T19:15:34Z pjb: (let ((output (make-array 1024 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)))) (setf (aref output 0) 42) (replace output #(1 2 3) :start1 1) etc… output)
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2019-12-06T19:20:27Z vms14: pjb: I guess I'll use your approach instead of a circular list
2019-12-06T19:21:33Z vms14: I'm not sure, but I think with a circular list I'll need to save the list before being circular, or remove the last element any time I'll update it
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2019-12-06T19:27:39Z pjb: vms14: walking a circular list is the fastest. What do you want to do exactly?
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2019-12-06T19:27:52Z vms14: pjb: oh
2019-12-06T19:27:59Z pjb: vms14: alternatively, using a vector is fast too.
2019-12-06T19:28:01Z vms14: and even easier
2019-12-06T19:28:07Z vms14: I want to make the snake game
2019-12-06T19:28:15Z vms14: but the snake movement is really a bit of fake
2019-12-06T19:28:31Z vms14: instead of moving all the "points" you just make the last point of the tail be the head
2019-12-06T19:28:43Z vms14: this is why I want to rotate a list
2019-12-06T19:29:16Z pjb: Since there is a maximum snake length, you could use a vector, and too indices (head tail).
2019-12-06T19:29:19Z vms14: the snake then only moves one point, instead of the whole body
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2019-12-06T19:29:33Z pjb: s/too/two/ of course.
2019-12-06T19:30:03Z pjb: An alternate representation is to use the board itself to represent the snake.
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2019-12-06T19:32:11Z pjb: A cell can contain a code to represent empty apple and the various possible snake sections. (up down) (up left) (up right) … (down left) (head up) (head down) … (tail right) (tail left).
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2019-12-06T19:33:23Z pjb: So to find the snake you only need the head and tail coordinates, and you can know what cell to update by using the code for the from/to cells.
2019-12-06T19:33:55Z vms14: I like that, but not for the snake case
2019-12-06T19:34:44Z vms14: I really only need to check for collision with the head
2019-12-06T19:35:01Z vms14: and the snake can be just a list of points
2019-12-06T19:35:38Z vms14: well, not true that I only need to check the head
2019-12-06T19:35:52Z pjb: Obviously when we have gigabytes of RAM, nothing matters much anymore.  It would be different in 1KB :-)
2019-12-06T19:37:06Z vms14: I like what you say about having everything in the board directly, so every cell has a value. I had this in mind for another game
2019-12-06T19:37:52Z vms14: but for the snake I think is even easier to have a list of points being the snake, and check those points
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2019-12-06T19:38:46Z vms14: for moving I only need to rotate the last element so it will be the first (head) and 1+ point-x  for example if it moves to the right
2019-12-06T19:39:17Z vms14: first-point-x *
2019-12-06T19:39:28Z pjb: vms14: this solution would work well for very big boards. With 5K screens, you could easily go up to (640 360) cells.
2019-12-06T19:40:27Z pjb: So instead of pre-allocating 230K cells, you would just have a list of apples, and grow a list for the snake; the user will probably fail long before reaching a 230K cell long snake.
2019-12-06T19:40:48Z vms14: xD
2019-12-06T19:41:15Z vms14: you're tempting me
2019-12-06T19:41:51Z vms14: because I wanted to do that in other game, so it would be a nice opportunity to get used to this approach
2019-12-06T19:42:04Z didi: OK, I've hacked a version of `read-until-string'. Resuming.
2019-12-06T19:43:17Z pjb: didi: haven't you not considered com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii:read-ascii-line ?
2019-12-06T19:43:35Z pjb: right, it's AGPL3 and you're afraid of giving your code…
2019-12-06T19:43:35Z didi: pjb: I didn't know about it. Thanks.
2019-12-06T19:43:41Z dlowe: discoverability is a thing also
2019-12-06T19:44:09Z didi: pjb: I ain't afraid of freedom.
2019-12-06T19:44:15Z pjb: Basically, there's everything com.informatimago :-)
2019-12-06T19:44:34Z pjb: didi: Just joking, it's funnier to re-implementing things.
2019-12-06T19:44:45Z didi: pjb: Agreed.
2019-12-06T19:44:50Z dlowe: pjb: you can't blame people without being a hypocrite here :)
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2019-12-06T19:45:41Z dlowe: it's a tough issue to solve for these sorts of quality-of-life utilities
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2019-12-06T19:47:38Z jasom: Is there a standard anaphoric prog1?  It occurs to me it might be useful for something like (prog1-a (make-array ...) ...)
2019-12-06T19:48:23Z pjb: (let ((it (make-array)))  (do-something-with it) it)
2019-12-06T19:48:38Z jasom: pjb: right.
2019-12-06T19:49:16Z pjb: (defmacro with-it (init-form &body body) `(let ((it ,init-form)) ,@body it))
2019-12-06T19:49:41Z pjb: (with-it (make-array 10) (setf (aref it 0) 'yo)) #| --> #(yo 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0) |#
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2019-12-06T20:37:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: I've found prog1-bind more useful: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/fwoar.lisputils/blob/012d021dc42bdfc4de9d26306c13fe0e48e9db93/fwoar-lisputils.lisp#L275-L278
2019-12-06T20:38:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've found that the problem with anaphoric macros is that you have to remember to import IT
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2019-12-06T20:39:56Z pjb: Or that you cannot embed them easily.  Better use: (defmacro with (it init-form &body body) `(let ((,it ,init-form)) ,@body ,it))
2019-12-06T20:40:05Z pjb: (with this 42 (with that 33 (+ this that))) #| --> 42 |#
2019-12-06T20:40:22Z pjb: (with this 42 (with that 33 (print (+ this that)))) #| 75  --> 42 |#
2019-12-06T20:41:26Z pjb: So it's better to let the user give the name of the it, in case there is this, that, and thot…
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2019-12-06T20:50:16Z kmeow: is there a way to put the value of a macro argument into a string?
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2019-12-06T20:52:24Z kmeow: i.e something like (defthing IAC 255) => (defparameter IAC (make-thing :name "IAC" :value 255))
2019-12-06T20:53:17Z nirved: (format nil ...)
2019-12-06T20:55:18Z nirved: or simpler (string ...)
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2019-12-06T20:57:07Z kmeow: hm, weird ... I thought (string) wasn't working for me, but I may have misunderstood the error message
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2019-12-06T21:00:32Z kmeow: okay, so I think my problem is I can't get the macro argument to expand inside "" marks
2019-12-06T21:02:13Z kmeow: the macro produces ",name" in other words
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2019-12-06T21:02:36Z nirved: that's why use format
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2019-12-06T21:14:36Z kmeow: I'm getting (format nil "~a" IAC), but I need (format nil "~a" 'IAC), which I haven't yet found a way to do
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2019-12-06T21:19:54Z nirved: (format nil "~a" `,name)
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2019-12-06T21:31:12Z pjb: kmeow: you should realize that macros are functions like any other function.
2019-12-06T21:32:02Z pjb: kmeow: (defmacro defthing (name value) (let ((sname (string name)))  `(list ',name ,sname ,value))) #| --> defthing |# (defthing iac 255) #| --> (iac "IAC" 255) |#
2019-12-06T21:32:35Z pjb: kmeow: notice how my *print-case* is set to :downcase.  So using format ~A would generate "iac" instead of "IAC".  Using string or symbol-name is better if you want to have a consistent case.
2019-12-06T21:33:11Z pjb: kmeow: or you can use ~(~A~) or ~:@(~A~).
2019-12-06T21:34:20Z pjb: kmeow: nirved solution computes the string at run-time. This might be not what you want.
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2019-12-06T22:14:59Z _death: I wonder, does this cffi code make sense to anyone? https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/src/types.lisp#L562
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2019-12-06T22:17:38Z _death: an aggregate-struct-slot has a count, but the methods defined for it take no notice (and foreign-struct-slot-value errors with missing method for translate-aggregate-to-foreign when I trying to use)
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2019-12-06T22:29:12Z phoe: _death: it seems that slot-count is only assigned during the creation of the object.
2019-12-06T22:29:50Z phoe: L604 of that file.
2019-12-06T22:30:23Z nirved: _death: looks like it's used with libffi
2019-12-06T22:31:01Z _death: yes.. there is another reference in cffi-libffi (which I'm using)
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2019-12-06T22:35:32Z _death: but given (defcstruct foo (a :int :count 4)) and (defcfun bar :void (foo (:struct foo))), C function void bar(struct foo foo);, a call like (bar (list 'a '(1 2 3 4))) will result in the error I mentioned
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2019-12-06T22:40:23Z _death: I could get around it just munging the memory myself.. but it seems like a cffi bug
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2019-12-06T22:43:27Z Bike: Shinmera: do you actually use extensible sequences? i'm looking for examples of users but github search is as shit as always
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2019-12-06T22:45:05Z Shinmera: I have a use for it in Trial
2019-12-06T22:45:25Z Shinmera: But nothing else because it's not very widely supported yet.
2019-12-06T22:45:59Z Shinmera: I would like to add support for it in FOR and Flare
2019-12-06T22:46:27Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shirakumo/trial/blob/master/gl-struct.lisp#L337
2019-12-06T22:46:54Z Bike: thanks
2019-12-06T22:47:39Z Bike: i'm implementing it in clasp (no surprise there) and am wondering about how the actual sequence functions should work. like map and stuff
2019-12-06T22:47:57Z Bike: the way sbcl is written, if you map to an extended sequence type, it always calls sequence:map
2019-12-06T22:48:03Z Bike: but that pretty much has to cons a lot
2019-12-06T22:48:12Z Bike: (well, some)
2019-12-06T22:48:38Z Shinmera: why does that have to cons a lot?
2019-12-06T22:48:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've used them here or there
2019-12-06T22:49:25Z Bike: it has to deal with an unknown number of sequences (i.e. a list of sequences), so it conses a list of iterators
2019-12-06T22:49:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. I have a class that represents a RSS or Atom feed and it uses the protocol so you can use remove-if* to  filter the items
2019-12-06T22:49:39Z Bike: whereas if you do (map 'list f x) it'll pretty much just be dolist
2019-12-06T22:49:49Z Shinmera: Bike: ah...
2019-12-06T22:50:31Z Shinmera: not sure that can be avoided anyway?
2019-12-06T22:51:03Z Bike: well most of the time you call map you're actually writing, you know, like (map ...), so the number of arguments is known at compile time
2019-12-06T22:51:15Z Bike: and sbcl open codes it, unless the result is an extended sequence
2019-12-06T22:51:25Z Bike: (or probably if optimize space is high)
2019-12-06T22:52:51Z Shinmera: Well, the user might provide a more efficient MAP
2019-12-06T22:53:13Z _death: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1589#1589 this makes my example work
2019-12-06T22:53:37Z Shinmera: is probably why it's not unrolled automatically
2019-12-06T22:54:30Z Shinmera: In any case it's too late and my brain is fried, so I don't think I have any useful input on this.
2019-12-06T22:54:40Z Bike: that's fine, the example is already helpful
2019-12-06T22:55:40Z Bike: there are two different efficiency concerns - this map unrolling biznis, but also the sequence might have some specific ability to be more efficient. if the protocol is such that sequence:map HAS to be called, you only get the latter. if not, only the former
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2019-12-06T23:04:15Z Bike: seeing systems t hat define sequence methods beyond the core and iteration protocol would be interesting. if anyone happens to know any. if they even exist
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2019-12-06T23:09:27Z jasom: Does CFFI have a type for a function pointer, or does it just assume that function pointers and data pointers are compatible?
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2019-12-06T23:20:22Z fe[nl]ix: the latter
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2019-12-06T23:35:00Z _death: seems I got it working.. (bar (list 'a '(1 2 3 4))) => (A (4 3 2 1)) (with bar returning a foo with reversed array contents)
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2019-12-06T23:40:28Z _death: I see some cffi tests failing, but it seems some unmodified cffi tests are failing as well
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2019-12-06T23:42:37Z sahara3: :-/
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2019-12-07T00:07:20Z sahara3: :-D
2019-12-07T00:09:31Z sahara3: DJ Marshmello
2019-12-07T00:11:29Z sahara3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZHF5UqnU4
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2019-12-07T00:22:49Z sahara3: bye
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2019-12-07T00:49:27Z LdBeth: do anyone have idea on what to do if you see "^M" in slime repl on windows
2019-12-07T00:49:54Z LdBeth: I'm having this problem with CCL, CLisp works fine
2019-12-07T00:50:10Z no-defun-allowed: Means the CR in CRLF isn't being handled as part of the newline separator somewhere.
2019-12-07T00:51:01Z LdBeth: yes I know the wacky DOS EOL convention
2019-12-07T00:51:54Z LdBeth: I suspect it's CCL doesn't handle that properly.
2019-12-07T00:53:25Z pilne: I recently had to go back to windows for various reasons, and portacle has been a blessing so far
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2019-12-07T01:00:58Z pjb: I have this in my .ccl-init.lisp:  https://pastebin.com/tNCT02Ph
2019-12-07T01:01:55Z pjb: I mean ~/ccl-init.lisp
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2019-12-07T01:07:49Z LdBeth: pjb: thank you
2019-12-07T01:08:19Z LdBeth: I guess on Windows ~ is AppData/Roaming something
2019-12-07T01:08:47Z pilne: usually seems to default to something like that
2019-12-07T01:10:02Z oni-on-ion: %CurrentUser%\%WindowsLiveExperienceID%\
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2019-12-07T02:06:12Z sjl: In hindsight, this (for ... matching ...) iterate driver may have been overkill, but at least it'll help make advent of code input parsing less tedious https://hg.sr.ht/~sjl/cl-losh/browse/default/src/iterate.lisp#L890
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2019-12-07T02:11:58Z _death: sjl: last year I started writing utilities for AoC as well.. since I don't like to use regular expressions in code, back in 2018 I came up with this: https://gist.github.com/death/4ed89bf10404f5c71f1fb8f2a95a0f13
2019-12-07T02:12:46Z _death: incidentally, "slhelper" stands for "(Santa|Satan)'s Little Helpers" .. regexes in names are fine :)
2019-12-07T02:16:32Z LdBeth: most of parsing work in AoC can be done with split-sequence
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2019-12-07T02:16:49Z _death: indeed
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2019-12-07T02:18:43Z _death: btw I found another bug, this time in cffi-libffi.. (defcfun foo :string) will try to foreign-string-to-lisp the pointer to the string pointer instead of the string pointer itself... other types may also have this issue, but I fixed it for foreign-string-type at least
2019-12-07T02:20:06Z LdBeth: I'm not familiar with C, but isn't string means a *char?
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2019-12-07T02:20:53Z aeth: char*
2019-12-07T02:21:24Z LdBeth GG
2019-12-07T02:21:25Z aeth: afaik, a string is a char* that starts at the * and ends at the first NUL (0)
2019-12-07T02:21:35Z aeth: this is obviously problematic for many reasons
2019-12-07T02:21:46Z _death: LdBeth: yes, a C string is a pointer to char.. cffi type :string automatically converts between foreign and lisp strings
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2019-12-07T02:32:29Z pjb: LdBeth: I use (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :directory '(:relative) :name "ccl-init" :type "lisp") (user-homedir-pathname)) so it works everywhere!
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2019-12-07T02:33:17Z pjb: LdBeth: indeed, you're not familiar with C.
2019-12-07T02:33:30Z pjb: LdBeth: char is not a character type, it's an integer type!!!
2019-12-07T02:33:57Z LdBeth: Wat?
2019-12-07T02:34:35Z pjb: LdBeth: a string is a vector of character. It's way more sophisticated than what C proposes.
2019-12-07T02:35:19Z no-defun-allowed: '<char>' is just syntactic sugar for the integer with the same value as the character's codepoint.
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2019-12-07T02:37:50Z LdBeth: I guess it could have different size from int
2019-12-07T02:38:05Z LdBeth: So it’s not syntactic sugar in that way
2019-12-07T02:42:21Z LdBeth: Also char[] and char * cannot be used interchangeably
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2019-12-07T04:57:38Z White_Flame: is there some sort of asdf extension out there that lets you place dependencies inside the individual .lisp  files instead of in the .asd?
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2019-12-07T05:03:05Z fe[nl]ix: White_Flame: no, that would be a bad idea
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2019-12-07T05:58:16Z anlsh: When I do (ql:quickload :alexandria) I get the following error:  The name "ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0" does not designate any package.
2019-12-07T05:58:22Z anlsh: Any idea what's up?
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2019-12-07T06:07:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: doesn't package-inferred-system do something like that?
2019-12-07T06:08:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have a hack I use occasionally: #.(progn (ql:quickload ...) nil)
2019-12-07T06:15:02Z White_Flame: I mean inter-file dependencies, not inter-system
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2019-12-07T06:41:07Z no-defun-allowed waits for fully inferred systems, where hypothetically any time an undefined variable or function is used, its definition is searched for and the file containing its definition is loaded
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2019-12-07T07:23:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-07T08:20:48Z reepca: weird question - is there a way to make a function binding special?
2019-12-07T08:21:24Z beach: No.
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2019-12-07T08:22:35Z reepca: good to know
2019-12-07T08:22:40Z beach: You would have to do it yourself, like (unwind-protect ... (let ((old (fdefinition ...))) (setf (fdefinition ...) #'...) etc.
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2019-12-07T08:27:27Z ggole: Make a regular special binding and funcall it?
2019-12-07T08:30:34Z Shinmera: dynamically bound functions easily lead to spaghetti
2019-12-07T08:31:59Z Shinmera: so going through the special binding to mark it up seems like a good idea.
2019-12-07T08:32:34Z reepca: aye, just a little tedious to go around swapping out (read-byte ...) with (funcall *read-byte* ...) because I didn't read and memorize the full spec before I started writing
2019-12-07T08:32:50Z reepca: (to clarify, full spec here means the thing I'm implementing, not the CL spec)
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2019-12-07T08:33:22Z Shinmera: also, it seems to me that you would very likely be better off with GFs than dynamically bound functions.
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2019-12-07T08:33:51Z Shinmera: as in, define the generic function protocol, then pass around the object that implements it.
2019-12-07T08:33:58Z anlsh: How do I get frame restarts working in sly/slime? Every time I press the "r" key I just get a message about the frame being compiled, and I'm not sure what to change to fix that
2019-12-07T08:35:24Z reepca: does it work to have a generic function with the same name as an existing CL function?
2019-12-07T08:35:40Z Shinmera: same name but different symbol, sure.
2019-12-07T08:35:45Z Shinmera: same symbol, no.
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2019-12-07T08:36:27Z reepca: in other words, it'd have to be in a different package?
2019-12-07T08:36:32Z Shinmera: yes
2019-12-07T08:36:47Z beach: anlsh: "working"?  To invoke the restart, you just type its number.
2019-12-07T08:37:14Z Shinmera: or click the label
2019-12-07T08:37:29Z Shinmera: or press 'a' for abort, or 'c', for continue.
2019-12-07T08:37:54Z beach: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2019-12-07T08:37:55Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
2019-12-07T08:38:10Z beach: reepca: See that page for what you are allowed to do with standardized symbols.
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2019-12-07T09:08:33Z pjb: White_Flame: see: com.informatimago.tools.asdf-file
2019-12-07T09:10:17Z pjb: reepca: (defvar *foo*) (defun foo (&rest args) (apply *foo* args))  (defun g () (foo 1 2 3)) (let ((*foo* (lambda (&rest args) (reduce '+ args)))) (g)) #| --> 6 |#
2019-12-07T09:10:41Z ck_: Shinmera: you're running irclog.tymoon.eu, is that right?  Are you open to a small feature request?
2019-12-07T09:11:15Z Shinmera: Sure
2019-12-07T09:11:55Z ck_: I'd sometimes like to switch channels at or around the timestamp I'm currently looking at
2019-12-07T09:12:57Z White_Flame: pjb: found your page for it, but I'm not sure how it applies
2019-12-07T09:13:14Z Shinmera: ck_: And I assume just editing the URL is not convenient enough?
2019-12-07T09:13:17Z ck_: I know it's as easy as editing the url, so it's maybe not even ..
2019-12-07T09:13:23Z Shinmera: hah
2019-12-07T09:13:46Z pjb: White_Flame: the driver is tools/make-depends.sh
2019-12-07T09:14:21Z pjb: White_Flame: it has probably bit-rotten a little, since I don't use it anymore.  Putting dependencies in asd files is better.
2019-12-07T09:14:34Z Shinmera: I could maybe turn the channel header into an option list instead to do the switching. I'll think about it.
2019-12-07T09:14:45Z ck_: well, the first thing I looked for was a time input field at the channel view, to navigate to a point in history that way.  I'll just add a bookmarklet to get there quicker
2019-12-07T09:14:50Z pjb: White_Flame: but the principle applies: scan the files to build the dependencies yourself, and generate an asd file.
2019-12-07T09:14:57Z ck_: thanks for entertaining the suggestion in any case!
2019-12-07T09:15:42Z Shinmera: ck_: The software running is open source too, so if you have time you could have a go at fixing it yourself. https://github.com/shirakumo/chatlog
2019-12-07T09:16:39Z ck_: Shinmera: oh, that's nice, thank you.  I'll send a pull request your way soon then.
2019-12-07T09:16:53Z Shinmera: Time input and channel switch would be nice to have, yes.
2019-12-07T09:17:08Z ck_: consider it done
2019-12-07T09:17:16Z ck_: just don't consider it done .. soon ;)
2019-12-07T09:17:18Z Shinmera: Time input did exist in a previous version, but it became too cluttered, especially for mobile, so I removed it in the streamlining process.
2019-12-07T09:17:27Z Shinmera: Sure.
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2019-12-07T11:10:22Z boeg: So I'm trying to figure out how systems and packages works, and I've created a package.lisp now and a *name*.asd. Now, I normally just use sly in emacs to run my common lisp and manually use quickload to load libraries, but now I have defined a dependency in the asdf file, so my question is, how do I use this in sly so it takes care of loading things defined with asdf?
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2019-12-07T11:12:14Z pjb: boeg: systems and packages are orthogonal.
2019-12-07T11:12:25Z boeg: pjb: right
2019-12-07T11:12:33Z pjb: boeg: systems define a set of files, and their dependencies, so that asdf can compile and load them in the right order.
2019-12-07T11:12:55Z pjb: boeg: those files may contain package definition forms, 0, 1 or more.
2019-12-07T11:13:08Z boeg: yes
2019-12-07T11:13:18Z pjb: boeg: those files may contain in-package forms, so that their symbols are interned in those packages.
2019-12-07T11:13:49Z boeg: So package.lisp contains defpackage and then in a another file i have an in-package call for the package defined in package.lisp
2019-12-07T11:13:58Z pjb: boeg: this may be packages defined in a file of the system, or not.  You could (defun cl-user::foo () 'foo) thus defining a function named by a symbol interned in the cl-user package, for example.
2019-12-07T11:14:14Z boeg: when i then compile and load in sly, it says it doesn't designate any package
2019-12-07T11:14:40Z pjb: boeg: so if you want to define your own packages, and put them in a package.lisp file, this file needs to be loaded before the other files are compiled or loaded, so their in-package forms will find the packages you defined in the package.lisp file.
2019-12-07T11:14:52Z boeg: ah
2019-12-07T11:14:58Z pjb: So for each file, you will have a dependency such as: (:file "foo" :depends-on ("package" …))
2019-12-07T11:15:14Z boeg: that worked
2019-12-07T11:15:25Z boeg: yes, i have that and it works now
2019-12-07T11:15:35Z boeg: next problem is what about my dependency on "split-sequence"?
2019-12-07T11:15:46Z pjb: boeg: remember, asd files are just like Makefiles, they define dependencies between your files (and also with other systems).
2019-12-07T11:15:48Z boeg: I have defined it in my asd file
2019-12-07T11:16:09Z pjb: boeg: this is a system dependency.  You define it with :depends-on in the defsystem form.
2019-12-07T11:16:22Z boeg: yes, i have that i believe in my asd file
2019-12-07T11:16:38Z boeg: do i just load the asd file manually in sly too?
2019-12-07T11:16:41Z pjb: Once this dependency is established, your files can access directly anything that is defined by those systems, since they will have been loaded before the current system.
2019-12-07T11:17:14Z pjb: boeg: if you make your asd systema vailable to quicklisp (eg. putting them or a symlink in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ ) then you can just use quicklisp for your system like for the others.
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2019-12-07T11:17:33Z pjb: The advantage of using quicklisp, is that if you're missing a dependent system, quicklisp will download and install it automatically.
2019-12-07T11:18:19Z boeg: oh, so I make a symlink in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ to my .asd file that has a dependency on split-sequence
2019-12-07T11:18:32Z pjb: to the directory containing your .asd file.
2019-12-07T11:18:40Z boeg: and then i manually in sly load the .asd file, then package.lisp and then i rock?
2019-12-07T11:18:49Z boeg: ah, the directory, gotcha
2019-12-07T11:18:52Z pjb: then you just use (ql:quickload :your-system).
2019-12-07T11:18:58Z boeg: oh
2019-12-07T11:19:04Z boeg: alright
2019-12-07T11:19:05Z pjb: No need to loald the .asd file directly or any other file. quickload will do everything.
2019-12-07T11:19:07Z boeg: let me give it a try
2019-12-07T11:20:33Z boeg: pjb: does it matter how deep the .asd file is relative to the symlink? Could I for example symlink to ~/projects where the .asd file is in ~/projects/../*.asd ?
2019-12-07T11:20:47Z pjb: boeg: no, you can have subdirectories in local-projects.
2019-12-07T11:20:56Z boeg: alright, thanks
2019-12-07T11:21:29Z pjb: in some cases, quicklisp doesn't discover them immediately. You can force it with (ql:register-local-projects)
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2019-12-07T11:22:59Z boeg: alright, it seems to work this far
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2019-12-07T11:24:22Z boeg: hmm, so how do I call a function :D
2019-12-07T11:25:20Z boeg: I load my system, seems to be fine, then I load a file I'm working on and call a function just like (my-function) which usually works but now it doesn't
2019-12-07T11:25:39Z boeg: says common-lisp-user::day06 is undefined
2019-12-07T11:25:50Z boeg: I have probably set things up wrongly
2019-12-07T11:26:13Z pjb: You must use the name of the function, which is a symbol interned in some package. You need to know this package.
2019-12-07T11:26:42Z pjb: If you have a in-package form before the form where the name of the function is interned, then it's interned in that package.
2019-12-07T11:26:46Z pjb: not in cl-user.
2019-12-07T11:26:47Z boeg: so the package is named ... well i have (in-package :aoc2019.day06) at the top, and function is called day06
2019-12-07T11:27:03Z pjb: (aoc2019.day06::day06)
2019-12-07T11:27:22Z boeg: ah!
2019-12-07T11:27:47Z pjb: perhaps you exported "DAY06" from the package named "AOC2019.DAY06", in which case you can use: (aoc2019.day06:day06)  or (use-package :aoc2019.day06) and (day06)
2019-12-07T11:28:18Z boeg: ah, yes, makes sense
2019-12-07T11:28:19Z boeg: thanks
2019-12-07T11:28:51Z pjb: For example, you could define a asd system aoc2019 dependent on all the aoc systems, with a aoc2019 package that would use all the aoc2019.day?? packages, so that (in-package :aoc2019) you could call directly all the (day01) .. (day31) functions.
2019-12-07T11:29:07Z boeg: something is weird though, if I remove the "in-package" and do as I use to, my function gives one result and if I go about it with asdf and so on, call it with (aoc2019.day06::day06) it gives a completely other result
2019-12-07T11:29:36Z pjb: boeg: if you're lost you can use (let ((*package* (find-package "KEYWORD"))) (apropos "day")) to find what package the day symbols are interned in.
2019-12-07T11:29:51Z boeg: maybe thats a good setup yes
2019-12-07T11:30:04Z pjb: boeg: your functions may depend on the run-time package if they use READ or INTERN etc.
2019-12-07T11:30:25Z boeg: i don't directly use those no
2019-12-07T11:30:27Z pjb: boeg: it's not a good idea in that case to let the run-time package up to the user. You would have to bind the *package* at run-time.
2019-12-07T11:30:41Z boeg: I'm just gonna debug, 2 sec
2019-12-07T11:31:49Z pjb: You may also depend on other variables such as *print-…* or *read-…*; you can get a specific setting with (with-standard-io-syntax …) or otherwise code to avoid depending on them, or set them to specific values.
2019-12-07T11:32:12Z pjb: For example, (setf *read-base* 8.) or  (setf *read-base* 16.) could break a lot of program using numeric input…
2019-12-07T11:32:50Z boeg: but I don't understand ... How are are the functions loaded differently depending on if I use asdf or just manually load my .lisp file?
2019-12-07T11:32:58Z pjb: If your specifications specifies base ten, then your program should contain a (let ((*read-base* 10.)) … (read) …)
2019-12-07T11:33:06Z boeg: It's not the input - that's the same in both cases, so it must be something else
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2019-12-07T11:33:56Z boeg: ah wait, I actually do use (intern)
2019-12-07T11:34:09Z pjb: boeg: they're not loaded differently, they're loaded with load, in the current *package* and *readtable* by default.  Perhaps asdf sets the current *package* to something specific different than your current *package* in the REPL, but it's up to your files to contain in-package forms to specify which *package* must be used to intern the symbols in your sources.
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2019-12-07T11:34:39Z pjb: You can use the second parameter: (intern name "MY-RUNTIME-PACKAGE")
2019-12-07T11:35:26Z pjb: For user input, you can (delete-package  "MY-RUNTIME-PACKAGE") (make-package "MY-RUNTIME-PACKAGE" :use '()) at the start of the program to clean things up.
2019-12-07T11:36:09Z boeg: and "MY-RUNTIME-PACKAGE" should be "AOC2019.DAY6" ?
2019-12-07T11:36:17Z pjb: perhaps.
2019-12-07T11:36:29Z pjb: It depends what you are reading.
2019-12-07T11:36:35Z boeg: right
2019-12-07T11:36:47Z pjb: It may be a good idea to have different packages for the program and for user's symbols.
2019-12-07T11:36:50Z boeg: give me a second, have to see if i understand :P
2019-12-07T11:37:31Z pjb: Where is this aoc 2019?
2019-12-07T11:37:44Z pjb: got it.
2019-12-07T11:40:47Z pjb: you could use a temporary package named AOC2019.DAY6.PLANETS-XXX to read the planet names.
2019-12-07T11:40:58Z pjb: well to INTERN the planet names.
2019-12-07T11:42:04Z boeg: but
2019-12-07T11:42:33Z boeg: if I just wanted to have intern use the current aoc2019.day6 package, i should just give the second argument "AOC2019.day6" ?
2019-12-07T11:42:39Z pjb: alternatively, since you need to intern the planet names only for EQ hash-tables, etc, you could just use make-symbol instead of intern.
2019-12-07T11:42:45Z boeg: as in ... make the symbol available to the current package?
2019-12-07T11:42:50Z pjb: Ie. not interning the planet names in any package.
2019-12-07T11:43:38Z pjb: planet names are not program identifiers. They don't belong to the package where you intern your program symbols.
2019-12-07T11:43:58Z boeg: hmm ok
2019-12-07T11:44:03Z boeg: well it does make sense
2019-12-07T11:44:08Z boeg: I don't actually need to use intern
2019-12-07T11:44:12Z pjb: Well, if you use make-symbol you will have to unify them yourself, so better use a temporary package for the planet names.
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2019-12-07T11:44:32Z boeg: it was just a quick way to make a case statement where I test on a string work
2019-12-07T11:44:39Z boeg: So I just intern't the strings
2019-12-07T11:45:17Z boeg: just four different strings, so it wasn't gonna bloat the "symbol registry" but yeah, probably a bad decision
2019-12-07T11:45:20Z pjb: You will have to intern them in a equal or equalp hash-table to find them again (there are several occurences of a single planet name).
2019-12-07T11:45:49Z pjb: boeg: who knows if they don't have a test file with 100,000 planet names?
2019-12-07T11:45:54Z pjb: or more.
2019-12-07T11:46:13Z boeg: yeah
2019-12-07T11:46:23Z boeg: i'm rewriting it to get rid of intern now
2019-12-07T11:47:39Z pjb: create a hash-table, setf gethash the strings, delete the hash-table, vs create a package, intern the string, deletel the package…
2019-12-07T11:48:01Z pjb: The only thing is that you want to generate a unique package name in case your program is run in parallel in different threads.
2019-12-07T11:48:30Z kmeow: what's the right way to export a struct from a package? I'm missing the slot symbols for its constructor
2019-12-07T11:48:55Z boeg: pjb: yeah i see the wrongs of my doing :D
2019-12-07T11:49:23Z pjb: (let ((*planet-package* (make-package (make-unique-package-name "AOC2019.DAY06.PLANETS-") :use '()))) (unwind-protect (do-something) (delete-package *planet-package*)))
2019-12-07T11:50:56Z pjb: see for example: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/c98c1b33fe781bb69d638cfbad4bfa6a241f33f6/common-lisp/interactive/interactive.lisp#L308
2019-12-07T11:51:40Z pjb: Of course, to ensure thread safety a lock would be needed while generating the unique name.
2019-12-07T11:52:09Z pjb: in the case of mkupack, it's an interactive function, so we assume the user doesn't call it from threads.
2019-12-07T11:52:11Z boeg: pjb: well, actually, it wasn't that complicated
2019-12-07T11:52:20Z pjb: ok
2019-12-07T11:52:22Z boeg: pjb: I had just made a stupid use-case of intern
2019-12-07T11:53:19Z boeg: I could simplify the code now that I understand objects better, get it with `elt` and use case to match on it
2019-12-07T11:53:34Z boeg: instead of creatings symbols and matching on them
2019-12-07T11:53:42Z boeg: it works now
2019-12-07T11:53:48Z boeg: thank you for explaining things to me :)
2019-12-07T11:54:33Z pjb: ;-)
2019-12-07T11:55:10Z boeg: well wtf
2019-12-07T11:55:16Z boeg: now I tried to use use-package
2019-12-07T11:55:48Z boeg: If I do (aoc2019.day6::day6) it works, if I do (day6) it doesn't
2019-12-07T11:55:54Z boeg: gives the wrong input from befire
2019-12-07T11:55:56Z boeg: before*
2019-12-07T11:56:02Z pjb: use-package is for compilation-time (or the REPL). not for run-time. For run-time, you would just bind *package* (let ((*package* my-runtime-package)) (read))
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2019-12-07T11:56:15Z pjb: or (intern name my-runtime-package)
2019-12-07T11:56:31Z pjb: perhaps you have tqo day6
2019-12-07T11:56:34Z pjb: (apropos "day6")
2019-12-07T11:56:43Z pjb: s/q/w/
2019-12-07T11:57:06Z pjb: bbl
2019-12-07T11:57:10Z boeg: bye
2019-12-07T12:08:59Z _death: kmeow: you cannot export a struct from a package.. all you can do is export symbols, so export make-struct, struct-foo, struct-bar, etc.
2019-12-07T12:10:02Z kmeow: Ohhh
2019-12-07T12:13:23Z kmeow: how would you export the symbols used with a struct constructor, in particular?
2019-12-07T12:14:13Z kmeow: for something like (defstruct astruct a b c) I've been using (make-astruct :a val1 :b val2 :c val3)
2019-12-07T12:14:33Z _death: those are usually keyword symbols (i.e. symbols in the keyword package).. symbols in the keyword package are automatically exported, so they can use them from anywhere (i.e. they are global)
2019-12-07T12:14:53Z _death: :a is a shortcut for keyword:a
2019-12-07T12:15:51Z kmeow: sbcl is giving me warnings like " :STATE is not a known argument keyword."
2019-12-07T12:16:13Z _death: well, astruct has no state slot
2019-12-07T12:18:19Z kmeow: that was just an example
2019-12-07T12:19:03Z _death: if your struct has a state slot, the default constructor function will take a :state keyword argument
2019-12-07T12:19:27Z kmeow: yeah
2019-12-07T12:19:38Z kmeow: which sbcl will do for it in the same file without complaint
2019-12-07T12:21:33Z kmeow: god, I must have had the keyword in the wrong set of parens
2019-12-07T12:21:50Z kmeow: ty
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2019-12-07T14:19:38Z galdor: is https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames/blob/master/docs.org the last version available for the local nickname spec? it has not been touched for 9 years and error types are marked as TODO
2019-12-07T14:21:06Z jackdaniel: galdor: see sbcl documentation if you want something what sustained the test of implementing it
2019-12-07T14:21:45Z Shinmera: There's also a test suite in the trivial-package-local-nicknames repo.
2019-12-07T14:22:57Z galdor: so the spec is dead :/
2019-12-07T14:23:14Z jackdaniel: qutie a statement
2019-12-07T14:23:56Z galdor: if implementations do their thing and the spec isn't maintained, then yes the spec is dead
2019-12-07T14:24:31Z galdor: I'm just trying to get a feel of the state of CL in 2019 to see if it makes sense for me to continue investing time and energy in it for my projects
2019-12-07T14:24:43Z galdor: it's quite sad
2019-12-07T14:25:54Z jackdaniel: |3b|: could you copy relevant parts of sbcl documentation to your repo to make galdor satisfied (alternatively less sorrowful)?
2019-12-07T14:26:33Z galdor: I appreciate the gesture, I can read the sbcl documentation :)
2019-12-07T14:26:39Z galdor: it's not the problem
2019-12-07T14:27:22Z Shinmera: then what is
2019-12-07T14:27:29Z jackdaniel: I might have been a little ironic here; needless to say I don't agree with your judgement of "CL state"
2019-12-07T14:28:58Z galdor: from what I understand, ownership of the CL standard is complicated, which pretty much guarantees that there will never be a new version
2019-12-07T14:29:18Z Shinmera: ok, so?
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2019-12-07T14:29:46Z galdor: this is disappointing, but could be worked around if there was a way to build some kind of consensus around update documents which will be adopted by major implementations
2019-12-07T14:29:58Z MichaelRaskin: I think, say, MOP work went without needing it be in _CL_ standard
2019-12-07T14:30:04Z galdor: something such as SRFI for Scheme
2019-12-07T14:30:15Z jackdaniel: local package nicknames are adopted by major implementations and they all follow what is documented in sbcl manual
2019-12-07T14:30:18Z beach: galdor: ANSI owns the standard.  Not complicated at all.
2019-12-07T14:30:18Z jackdaniel: mop is another example
2019-12-07T14:30:32Z jackdaniel drops from this discussion, santa has came!
2019-12-07T14:30:34Z beach: galdor: People use languages without a standard every day.
2019-12-07T14:30:53Z Shinmera: galdor: People have done this, and nothing has come of it.
2019-12-07T14:31:06Z galdor: it would be nice if local nicknames where based on documents and not on an implementation
2019-12-07T14:31:20Z galdor: I understand why it does not happen
2019-12-07T14:31:20Z Shinmera: then write that document.
2019-12-07T14:31:28Z Shinmera: make it happen.
2019-12-07T14:31:29Z galdor: does not mean I have to like it
2019-12-07T14:31:37Z galdor: I was thinking about it
2019-12-07T14:31:41Z MichaelRaskin: Given that other implementations took SBCL _document_
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2019-12-07T14:32:01Z galdor: but to be honest, when I see threads such as https://github.com/edicl/cl-ppcre/pull/30 I have trouble finding any kind of motivation
2019-12-07T14:32:36Z galdor: years old issues nobody cares about, abandonned library, etc.
2019-12-07T14:32:47Z galdor: sorry I'm just in a shitty mood today
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2019-12-07T14:35:19Z _death: this is not an issue with cl-ppcre, but with asdf
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2019-12-07T14:36:00Z Shinmera: oh boy here we go
2019-12-07T14:36:12Z _death: https://github.com/death/sbcl/commit/f7b8ceba6e3703e61aeb5e8b3022aee2c23f3bab
2019-12-07T14:36:26Z ck_ buckles his seatbelt
2019-12-07T14:37:12Z galdor: is asdf still maintained?
2019-12-07T14:37:57Z galdor: I'd volunteer for a patch to ASDF to remove the warning (I really don't like how complex ASDF has become, but afaik there aren't credible alternatives, a bit like CFFI)
2019-12-07T14:38:33Z galdor: and could your patch be merged to the official sbcl repository?
2019-12-07T14:41:33Z _death: it's more problematic than that.. if a patch is to be made, then it should be made in the asdf repository and vendors should then take it from there.. but asdf is not something vendors care to update, for good reasons
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2019-12-07T14:43:03Z scymtym: galdor: asdf is still maintained. primarily by rpg but with help from fare as far as i know
2019-12-07T14:43:38Z _death: it reminds me of https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/sysdef-spec.txt .. there should be a spec and vendors should be free to implement it themselves or use some existing implementation
2019-12-07T14:44:32Z Shinmera: Either that or the build system should be entirely separate.
2019-12-07T14:45:04Z galdor: apparently the primary repository is still github.com/fare/asdf
2019-12-07T14:46:16Z galdor: it feels to me lots of people agree this warning is annoying and useless, but it seems no one has the authority to fix it
2019-12-07T14:46:24Z scymtym: galdor: i think https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf is the primary one
2019-12-07T14:46:43Z Bike: judging by the thread, fare and rpg don't agree
2019-12-07T14:47:10Z galdor: I proposed a way to muffle the warning, but it does not seem anyone cares
2019-12-07T14:48:10Z galdor: I'm no blaming anyone, it just seems the CL ecosystem is really fragmented
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2019-12-07T14:48:31Z Bike: well this is a bikeshed kind of issue. perfect to make people angry
2019-12-07T14:48:42Z Bike: i don't think it's quite the same as a lack of coherent standards for extensions
2019-12-07T14:48:52Z Bike: (not that that isn't also an issue)
2019-12-07T14:49:29Z galdor: i'd say both issues are linked to the lack of people in the CL community, there aren't just enough of us
2019-12-07T14:49:44Z Bike: yeah maybe
2019-12-07T14:49:48Z ck_: the other end of the spectrum isn't a cakewalk either, though
2019-12-07T14:50:05Z galdor: oh I know I'm using Go at $DAYJOB
2019-12-07T14:50:41Z Shinmera: galdor: there's also just no "CL community"
2019-12-07T14:51:01Z galdor: oh call it the set of people using CL, no need to fight over semantic
2019-12-07T14:51:55Z Bike: i guess i could submit the SBCL manual section about package local nicknames as a CDR or whatever
2019-12-07T14:52:47Z ralt: what's the issue? just got there
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2019-12-07T14:53:01Z ralt: or the issues, I guess
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2019-12-07T14:54:00Z galdor: does someone knows why CDR docs never took off?
2019-12-07T14:54:14Z galdor: I mean SRFI seems to be thriving in the scheme community
2019-12-07T14:54:23Z Shinmera: because people just saying "you should do this" is not enough incentive for implementations to actually put in the work.
2019-12-07T14:54:40Z Shinmera: the only reason the standard ever happened was because the implementors wanted to collaborate.
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2019-12-07T14:55:25Z galdor: it's kind of my point
2019-12-07T14:55:40Z galdor: I could try to write some spec, but it's not the point
2019-12-07T14:55:54Z galdor: I have a trivial open issue open for CCL for a long time, no one cares
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2019-12-07T14:57:06Z Shinmera: if you want something done, do it yourself (or pay someone to do it)
2019-12-07T14:57:37Z Bike: phoe's been working on ccl stuff lately, maybe there can be some motion.
2019-12-07T15:03:44Z galdor: sometimes I wonder if having a mailing list would help
2019-12-07T15:04:04Z galdor: to coordinate this kind of thing
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2019-12-07T15:08:25Z Shinmera: All the coordination necessary is here: https://shinmera.github.io/portability/
2019-12-07T15:08:39Z Shinmera: Just requires someone to take the time to go and actually write the code.
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2019-12-07T15:11:07Z Bike: wow, ccl has everything but sequences, huh?
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2019-12-07T15:11:43Z Shinmera: phoe said he might consider tackling sequences once my trivial package has a test suite
2019-12-07T15:12:15Z Shinmera: Clasp is also looking really good considering how young it is :)
2019-12-07T15:12:41Z Bike: yes, i am great, how nice of you to notice
2019-12-07T15:13:30Z Shinmera: I think heisig is also working on sequences for sicl
2019-12-07T15:13:50Z Bike: i've been talking about that with beach, too
2019-12-07T15:13:58Z Bike: ...i should maybe coordinate with heisig a bit.
2019-12-07T15:14:29Z Shinmera: I think having stuff like UTF-8 strings using sequences is really exciting.
2019-12-07T15:15:29Z Shinmera: Thinking around that kinda stuff, I wonder how many implementations offer hash tables with custom tests.
2019-12-07T15:15:32Z Bike: unfortunately they don't work with string= or anything
2019-12-07T15:15:49Z Shinmera: Yeah. Still really cool to have it at all.
2019-12-07T15:15:52Z Bike: oh, that's not in your portability thing. wasn't there a library for that? let me see
2019-12-07T15:16:11Z Shinmera: I only included what I could think of, and the little some people reminded me of.
2019-12-07T15:16:21Z Bike: there is a CDR but no library i can see
2019-12-07T15:16:22Z Shinmera: If there is something the page is missing do let me know.
2019-12-07T15:16:27Z Shinmera: Ah.
2019-12-07T15:16:51Z Bike: sbcl supports an extension for this, no idea if it matches the CDR, dunno about other implementations
2019-12-07T15:17:04Z Bike: clasp doesn't ;(
2019-12-07T15:17:10Z Shinmera: yet :)
2019-12-07T15:17:44Z Bike: yet.
2019-12-07T15:18:01Z Bike: looks like ccl supports it with a different interface
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2019-12-07T15:18:45Z Bike: hash tables might be kind of weird portability-library-wise, since there's this extension and there's the weakness extension
2019-12-07T15:19:13Z Shinmera: weakness is handled by trivial garbage, but yeah, combining the two would produce overlap.
2019-12-07T15:19:35Z Shinmera: or rather, uh, the absence of overlap?
2019-12-07T15:20:05Z Bike: yeah that's what i mean. trivial garbage has make-weak-hash-table, which probably doesn't support custom hashing
2019-12-07T15:20:39Z Bike: maybe it does if it applies cl:make-hash-table with the original arguments...
2019-12-07T15:20:51Z Bike: could work, could work. sorta
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2019-12-07T15:36:09Z MichaelRaskin: Shinmera: this table is not all the coordination necessary
2019-12-07T15:37:43Z MichaelRaskin: hu.dwim.walker rots, and it's because package names and layout change (apparently without any change that would be visible in the — definitely nice and useful — table you keep)
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2019-12-07T15:39:00Z Shinmera: I was being hyperbolic anyway
2019-12-07T15:39:15Z Shinmera: If you notice a discrepancy, by all means send a patch or let me know what needs changing.
2019-12-07T15:39:48Z Shinmera: The site was designed to be very easy to update. https://github.com/Shinmera/portability/blob/master/data.lisp
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2019-12-07T15:40:58Z MichaelRaskin: I _think_ that the changes breaking the walker did not take anything away, so I don't have any changes in terms of the table. Anyway, I gave up and wrote Agnostic-Lizard.
2019-12-07T15:42:04Z MichaelRaskin: But my point is that code existing is not the only thing to go, coordination is more for catching up with JavaScript in terms of feature probing, not for pressuring people into writing and debugging code they don't care about
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2019-12-07T16:30:58Z oni-on-ion: question on portability of CL.
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2019-12-07T16:31:55Z oni-on-ion: for haskell standard, let's say Haskell '98 or Prime, most use GHC as the crazy-advanced hyper-optimizing supercompiler. this is a bit of a lock-in to implementation, aside from some outliers whom still are based on GHC
2019-12-07T16:32:25Z oni-on-ion: now for CL, what is the usefulness of adhering to standard, if most cases are using SBCL ?
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2019-12-07T16:33:37Z beach: If you are using only SBCL and you don't care about other implementations, and you believe SBCL will be around for some time, then you do what you wnat.
2019-12-07T16:33:41Z beach: want.
2019-12-07T16:33:50Z oni-on-ion: and to add a side question, is anyone using CL mainly for portability ?
2019-12-07T16:33:53Z oni-on-ion: thats true
2019-12-07T16:34:00Z pjb: oni-on-ion: none. But then, go to #sbcl.
2019-12-07T16:34:17Z pjb: oni-on-ion: however, there are problems with monoculture.
2019-12-07T16:34:23Z oni-on-ion: nah #sbcl is mostly about compiler internals afaik. not quite that learned yet
2019-12-07T16:34:59Z beach: oni-on-ion: There are platforms on which SBCL does not exist.
2019-12-07T16:35:01Z oni-on-ion: pjb, because i am thinking, emacs lisp is surely the most "portable" kind of lisp. i dont think anyone is choosing CL specifically to be portable. long-lasting (stability) strength of CL is not considered however
2019-12-07T16:35:13Z pjb: oni-on-ion: If you write conforming CL code, you get de-jure portability: you can run on all conforming CL implementations!
2019-12-07T16:35:13Z beach: oni-on-ion: I believe Android is one.
2019-12-07T16:35:22Z oni-on-ion: beach, yeah, just ECL still so far there
2019-12-07T16:35:23Z _death: oni-on-ion: most, but not all.. and even if SBCL was the only implementation around, the standard keeps interfaces stable
2019-12-07T16:35:32Z oni-on-ion: pjb, de-jure?
2019-12-07T16:35:38Z pjb: oni-on-ion: CLHS
2019-12-07T16:37:10Z beach: oni-on-ion: Type "define de jure" to Google.
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2019-12-07T16:38:31Z oni-on-ion: oh! cool =) i was thinking "de jour" as french (like soup de jour)
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2019-12-07T16:45:44Z _death: many standards end up being de jour
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2019-12-07T16:45:57Z _death: (or, du jour)
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2019-12-07T16:50:45Z Shinmera: oni-on-ion: I spend most of my time writing libraries. I want those to be useful for as many people as possible, so in order to account for as many use-cases as possible, I care about them being portable.
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2019-12-07T16:51:20Z Shinmera: beach: SBCL runs on android, just not in a convenient way to be useful for writing Android apps.
2019-12-07T16:53:54Z beach: Ah, OK.  Thanks.
2019-12-07T16:55:57Z oni-on-ion: Shinmera, ah yeah =) my short-sighted worry is nothing changes under me, so i can work on code base until i die. like say haskell or ocaml or web code wont work after a few months
2019-12-07T16:56:14Z beach: #lisp seems to be the channel of extremes.  One minute we have an opinion insisting on an update to the standard for package-local nicknames.  The next minute we have an opinion questioning the usefulness of the standard.
2019-12-07T16:57:13Z oni-on-ion: to be clear, to me the CL standard is the most useful of all standards, in programming
2019-12-07T16:58:01Z oni-on-ion: but i was curious how much the portability factor across implementations is relied upon -- Shinmera makes a good point. i wasn't thinking about apis/libraries, just as personal/proprietary code base substrate
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2019-12-07T17:04:51Z MichaelRaskin: With personal code, you sometimes can use the differences in what different implementations complain about to clean up some of the corner cases
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2019-12-07T17:06:06Z oni-on-ion: true; ive seen some doing this. but i've also seen some giving up on other impl's and sticking with one after giving up supporting the rest (im looking at you aeth =)
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2019-12-07T17:54:08Z vivit: When I attempt to quickload CLSQL-SQLITE3, I get the following error: 'Component CLSQL-UFFI-SYSTEM::UFFI does not match version 2.0, required by #<SYSTEM "clsql-uffi">'
2019-12-07T17:55:04Z vivit: The only information I can find online about this specific error seems to be one where the user apparently was having problems because he was using CLisp despite CLSQL not fully supporting CLisp, but I'm using SBCL
2019-12-07T17:55:41Z vivit: What should I do here? I'm completely stumped
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2019-12-07T18:05:43Z kmeow: is that the sqlite package?
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2019-12-07T18:06:51Z vivit: Is what the sqlite package?
2019-12-07T18:07:01Z vivit: CLSQL-SQLITE?
2019-12-07T18:09:01Z vivit: s/E/E3/
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2019-12-07T18:11:09Z vivit: It's the asdf system for sqlite version 3
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2019-12-07T18:17:10Z kmeow: I get the same error when I try to (ql:quickload "clsql-sqlite")
2019-12-07T18:17:39Z kmeow: (ql:quickload "sqlite") completes without error, though idk if those are at all related
2019-12-07T18:18:01Z jackdaniel: kmeow: before clsql load cffi
2019-12-07T18:18:25Z jackdaniel: then you will have cffi-uffi-compat loaded instead of long deprecated uffi
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2019-12-07T18:33:20Z vivit: Tried that; still get the same error
2019-12-07T18:36:15Z reepca: The :from-end keyword arguments in the sequence functions... I thought I had a good intuitive understanding of what they did ("start searching from the end"), but now I'm reading the hyperspec entry of POSITION and apparently my understanding was backwards?
2019-12-07T18:36:44Z reepca: "The position returned is the index within sequence of the leftmost (if from-end is true) or of the rightmost (if from-end is false) element that satisfies the test"
2019-12-07T18:38:10Z reepca: but the first example contradicts that, because the element at index 4 is not the leftmost element that satisfies the test...
2019-12-07T18:39:20Z reepca: is this a bug in the hyperspec?
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2019-12-07T18:43:47Z jackdaniel: clhs position
2019-12-07T18:43:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pos_p.htm
2019-12-07T18:44:49Z jackdaniel: seems to be a braino, yes
2019-12-07T18:45:43Z edgar-rft: reepca: it's a known error, see https://www.cliki.net/ANSI%20Clarifications%20and%20Errata
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2019-12-07T18:47:44Z kmeow: I'm trying to compile a script in SBCL, and I get +100 errors but it still spits out a fasl at the end
2019-12-07T18:48:06Z reepca: edgar-rft: thanks!
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2019-12-07T18:51:46Z kmeow: thought I had an actual question, but looking over the errors again I'm so baffled I'm not even sure where to begin
2019-12-07T18:52:10Z oni-on-ion: could be one initial error that leads to many others if sbcl continues past it
2019-12-07T18:52:23Z oni-on-ion: (happens in C )
2019-12-07T18:52:43Z kmeow: they're of the form "don't know how to dump #S( <some struct contents>)"
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2019-12-07T18:53:39Z kmeow: it's apparently related to macro expansion
2019-12-07T18:53:42Z oni-on-ion: cffi ?
2019-12-07T18:54:11Z kmeow: nah, a macro I wrote
2019-12-07T18:54:28Z oni-on-ion: oh
2019-12-07T18:55:52Z kmeow: yeah, I'm browsing ANSI Common Lisp looking for a description of the compilation process
2019-12-07T18:56:09Z kmeow: the file *runs* fine
2019-12-07T18:56:15Z jackdaniel: clhs make-load-form
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2019-12-07T18:56:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm
2019-12-07T18:56:32Z jackdaniel: kmeow: ^
2019-12-07T18:57:09Z kmeow: oo, ty
2019-12-07T18:58:42Z jackdaniel: kmeow: also http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bd.htm
2019-12-07T18:58:47Z jackdaniel: and of course
2019-12-07T18:58:49Z jackdaniel: clhs compile-file
2019-12-07T18:58:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm
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2019-12-07T19:07:08Z reepca: sometimes I think sbcl is too clever for its own good. It can figure out that the last iteration of a loop will always cause a type error and therefore delete the code after the loop as unreachable, but can't tell me why it deleted it and save me the time of analyzing it myself
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2019-12-07T19:07:48Z reepca: or maybe it would at a higher (optimize (debug ...)) setting?
2019-12-07T19:08:07Z jackdaniel: try safety 3 debug 3
2019-12-07T19:08:37Z reepca: put the declaration at the top of the function in question, it still just says "deleting unreachable code" and nothing else
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2019-12-07T19:12:21Z jackdaniel: it is easier to do something than explain clearly why it has been done (in compilers), so I suppose nobody bothered to implement explanation function
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2019-12-07T19:13:10Z reepca: it would actually be pretty interesting to try to implement a compiler that focuses on being able to answer "why" questions.
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2019-12-07T19:17:36Z edgar-rft: Hi compiler, why do I exist?
2019-12-07T19:18:00Z ck_: syntax error at line 1
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2019-12-07T19:20:02Z oni-on-ion: aha
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2019-12-07T19:36:23Z aeth: reepca: Well, wouldn't the "why" just generally be proving, while showing sufficient steps, that some optimized form is equivalent to the original? So it sounds possible.
2019-12-07T19:36:58Z aeth: For the unreachable code example, it would show you why the eliminated branch(es) can't be reached.
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2019-12-07T19:59:05Z jackdaniel: it would be definetely interesting and it is not unknown that it is :)
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2019-12-07T20:00:08Z jackdaniel: n.b same goes for the systems which make automated decisions (be it machine learning or expert systems) -- a very appealing features is to make these things to answer why they made some choice (i.e provide a rationale which makes sense to human being)
2019-12-07T20:00:23Z jackdaniel: but it is a hard problem to solve
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2019-12-07T20:03:04Z jackdaniel: (especially the part about making sense to people)
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2019-12-07T20:29:51Z aeth: jackdaniel: well as long as you don't use ML it's not impossible to say "why" afaik
2019-12-07T20:30:09Z aeth: now, ML saying "why", that's a hard problem afaik
2019-12-07T20:31:01Z nirved: what makes sense today might not make any sense tomorrow
2019-12-07T20:33:09Z ck_: another good time to reread the transcript: https://hci.stanford.edu/winograd/shrdlu/
2019-12-07T20:33:21Z ck_: "why?" 'to get rid of it.'
2019-12-07T20:37:04Z jackdaniel: I've applied a loose meaning of "hard"; it is different hard for comiplers and different hard for ML. The former is that making good  meaningful compiler messages with source location (and visualisation) requires a lot of thought, providing rationale for decisions is a few steps harder
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2019-12-07T20:58:19Z oni-on-ion: depends on the question we ask (how we retrieve the accrued data)
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2019-12-07T21:30:24Z pjb: jackdaniel: natural intelligence just lie about the reason why they made decisions.
2019-12-07T21:30:42Z pjb: We just provide a-posteriori justifications.s
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2019-12-07T21:48:22Z didi: So I'm lazy. Is it bad to create input streams with `make-string-input-stream' and never close them?
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2019-12-07T21:50:22Z aeth: didi: with-input-from-string should be equivalent, and it closes it
2019-12-07T21:50:37Z aeth: well, equivalent if you're binding your make-string-input-stream in e.g. a let
2019-12-07T21:50:40Z didi: aeth: I know, but it's SO MUCH MORE typing.
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2019-12-07T21:52:13Z aeth: didi: there should be an autocomplete somewhere, but I've never needed to install one
2019-12-07T21:52:26Z aeth: alternatively, you can define your own macro
2019-12-07T21:52:38Z didi: aeth: More work? Nah...
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2019-12-07T22:07:30Z phoe: galdor: what do you want in CCL
2019-12-07T22:07:41Z phoe: maybe it could be done
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2019-12-07T22:09:13Z galdor: it was just a simple function: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/215
2019-12-07T22:09:30Z galdor: nothing crazy :)
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2019-12-07T22:16:54Z phoe: galdor: https://github.com/phoe-trash/ccl/commit/3bae98ecb08b565f06524fb5afa8e7bb7955c93c
2019-12-07T22:17:14Z phoe: no idea if/how this will get pulled upstream. Feel free to cherrypick that commit onto Clozure/ccl and rebuild.
2019-12-07T22:17:56Z phoe: Or use my fork that I aggressively clean and fix nowadays. It's a staging area before committing this all upstream, but I have Travis hooked up to ensure that I don't fuck something up bad while working on it.
2019-12-07T22:19:39Z galdor: oh thank you!
2019-12-07T22:20:12Z galdor: mind if I open a PR for this patch and try to get it merged?
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2019-12-07T22:21:13Z phoe: galdor: sure, just take this patch only. This commit is on top of 55 other commits.
2019-12-07T22:21:23Z phoe: ...that aren't in CCL upstream just yet.
2019-12-07T22:21:44Z galdor: ok
2019-12-07T22:21:50Z Bike: ccl seems to lave a lot unexported...
2019-12-07T22:22:53Z phoe: Bike: CCL is used to keeping literally everything and the kitchen sink in #<Package CCL> and then not exporting it and using :: and ::% to reach it.
2019-12-07T22:23:00Z Bike: rite
2019-12-07T22:23:04Z phoe: That's one of the things that trip me up about it.
2019-12-07T22:23:53Z phoe: And one of the things that definitely need to be changed once someone throws enough attention at it.
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2019-12-08T04:03:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-08T07:38:45Z Xach: Good morning! How wonderful to be in sync with my european lisp pals.
2019-12-08T07:40:09Z ck_: how come?
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2019-12-08T07:41:16Z Xach: I am in Europe to visit SBCL20
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2019-12-08T07:41:34Z Xach: I can't disclose which country or city but it is Europe.
2019-12-08T07:43:04Z ck_: "[...] bonding and social activities taking place on Sunday 8th December"
2019-12-08T07:43:15Z ck_: sounds good, I hope you enjoy it
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2019-12-08T08:38:09Z phoe: morniiiiiiing
2019-12-08T08:38:20Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning phoe
2019-12-08T08:38:20Z phoe: Xach: enjoy it!
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2019-12-08T09:11:33Z boeg: What the difference between :to and :upto in the loop macro? As far as I can see they do the same thing
2019-12-08T09:12:40Z Shinmera: one is more specific about the direction of iteration.
2019-12-08T09:13:36Z Shinmera: or in other words, since there's a downto, why not an upto.
2019-12-08T09:14:26Z boeg: alright, thanks
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2019-12-08T09:19:29Z ck_: Shinmera: good morning. May I ask you something about chatlog?
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2019-12-08T09:20:34Z Shinmera: just ask
2019-12-08T09:21:24Z ck_: It's just about loading it -- quicklisp fails at 'Component "verbose" not found', but that's immediately after downloading the .tgz
2019-12-08T09:21:58Z ck_: Is there some other repository I need to add, other than the one for radiance?
2019-12-08T09:22:27Z Shinmera: you need to quickload radiance one time first
2019-12-08T09:22:34Z ck_: I did
2019-12-08T09:22:53Z Shinmera: then I have no idea
2019-12-08T09:22:56Z ck_: thank you
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2019-12-08T09:24:33Z ck_: for the record, I exited the debugger and did those two steps again -- (ql:quickload :radiance), chatlog -- and it went through without issue. Maybe you need to quickload radiance two times first.
2019-12-08T09:24:47Z Shinmera: I don't think so
2019-12-08T09:24:53Z Shinmera: try restarting your image.
2019-12-08T09:25:05Z Shinmera: there's cases where ASDF gets into a confused state and doesn't load things properly.
2019-12-08T09:27:40Z ck_: I don't understand what you mean, why should I restart?  It worked the second time is what I'm saying.
2019-12-08T09:28:12Z Shinmera: I'm saying it might not have worked properly
2019-12-08T09:28:43Z ck_: Ah, my mistake then. Thank you.
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2019-12-08T11:43:16Z jmercouris: any projects attempt to create an elisp interpreter in cl?
2019-12-08T11:43:41Z jmercouris: i know the other way around has been attempted for syntactical things, cl-lib
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2019-12-08T11:44:35Z jmercouris: the only thing I see is this discussion I participated in a long time ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/a8d61y/help_with_porting_elisp_to_cl/
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2019-12-08T11:53:40Z jmercouris: can elisp be compiled?
2019-12-08T11:53:50Z jmercouris: or is there some feature in the language that prohibits compilation?
2019-12-08T11:54:43Z jmercouris: any IRC channel for all lisp dialects?
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2019-12-08T11:57:16Z phoe: ##lisp
2019-12-08T11:57:24Z jmercouris: ah, yes, thank you!
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2019-12-08T11:57:50Z phoe: also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21665987 is a relevant discussion from not too long ago regarding compiling elisp
2019-12-08T11:58:11Z phoe: maybe #emacs will be able to tell you more about it since it is the home of elisp
2019-12-08T12:00:00Z jmercouris: thats an interesting discussion indeed, though a lot of the comments are parroty and 'talk to talk' type things as is common on YC
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2019-12-08T12:01:45Z _death: statements like "Emacs Lisp is fundamentally simple"
2019-12-08T12:02:34Z jmercouris: I also love the rest of that statement
2019-12-08T12:02:40Z jmercouris: "But the global scope is the power. The global namespace matters. A lot."
2019-12-08T12:02:59Z jmercouris: the global scope is the achilles heel of Elisp, and Emacs especially!
2019-12-08T12:03:22Z jmercouris: or rather the two edged sword, convenient, but very deadly, and you cut yourself a lot accidentally
2019-12-08T12:04:24Z _death: how would an elisp interpreter be helpful?.. elisp is a language for emacs, which has abstractions like buffers, windows, markers, fonts, and a ton of other things
2019-12-08T12:04:42Z _death: with that in mind, CL is a tiny language compared to elisp
2019-12-08T12:06:02Z jmercouris: as you might imagine, I am thinking of Next when asking this question :-)
2019-12-08T12:06:18Z froggey: the obvious solution is to compile emacs to CL
2019-12-08T12:06:53Z jmercouris: froggey: a very straightforward solution, but a very lengthy and long one :-D, I do admire your persistence and dedication!
2019-12-08T12:06:56Z _death: I wrote cl-tree-sitter yesterday that could help with parsing the C :)
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2019-12-08T13:24:01Z pjb: jmercouris: there's one in hemlock.
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2019-12-08T13:24:27Z pjb: jmercouris: my solution is to develop a C compiler targetting CL so that we may compile GNU emacs into a CL lisp image.
2019-12-08T13:24:29Z pjb: jmercouris: my solution is to develop a C compiler targetting CL so that we may compile GNU emacs into a CL lisp image.
2019-12-08T13:24:34Z pjb: oops.
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2019-12-08T13:25:12Z jmercouris: pjb: ah, hemlock, I'd rather not look at that source :D
2019-12-08T13:25:21Z pjb: Why not?
2019-12-08T13:25:31Z jmercouris: i probably will not understand it
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2019-12-08T15:44:44Z seok: how would I securely validate user uploaded images ?
2019-12-08T15:44:59Z seok: I couldn't find a library
2019-12-08T15:45:33Z seok: At the moment my option is to use third party image storage/hosting just for image validation
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2019-12-08T15:50:08Z phoe: sebboh1: what do you mean by "securely validate"
2019-12-08T15:50:18Z phoe: what does validation mean and what does security mean
2019-12-08T15:50:27Z phoe: I meant, uhhh, seok
2019-12-08T15:50:32Z phoe: but you aren't here anymore
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2019-12-08T19:30:34Z adam0001: New Ubuntu system, I notice ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp is in the hidden directory ~/.quicklisp/setup.lisp   Should I uninstall and reinstall using Quicklisp method?
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2019-12-08T19:32:36Z Bike: i think quicklisp is pretty insensitive to what directory it's in?
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2019-12-08T19:35:25Z MichaelRaskin: I have multiple QuickLisp installations in various very non-default locations, and I never have any problems with that
2019-12-08T19:38:34Z adam0001: OK. Thank you. It seems that the Lisp of others often expects it in the non-hidden directory.
2019-12-08T19:39:17Z adam0001: So, no real convention I guess. Will take another look at the Quicklisp install notes.
2019-12-08T19:39:46Z MichaelRaskin: Well, I load mine manually. (Of course that could go into .sbclrc if you have exactly one installation)
2019-12-08T19:40:51Z Bike: adam0001: implementations don't really expect it to be anywhere. they just need to load setup.lisp
2019-12-08T19:40:57Z Bike: probably in an rc file
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2019-12-08T19:42:33Z adam0001: a quick fix, might be to link or copy the hidden directory and file, alias it to a non-hidden ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp
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2019-12-08T19:43:01Z Bike: i mean you can just tell the implementation to load from the right spot.
2019-12-08T19:43:21Z Bike: on my system .sbclrc is set for quicklisp/setup.lisp. if i threw a period in there it would do the hidden location instead.
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2019-12-08T19:51:12Z adam0001: @Bike OK. Yes, my .sbclrc has it pointing to the hidden. So, its simply programmed hard-wired in the software I'm trying to run. I can change that, or copy setup.lisp to where it expects to find it.
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2019-12-08T19:53:05Z seok: Dang, I was disconnected
2019-12-08T19:53:23Z Bike: that seems like an unfortunate choice by that software.
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2019-12-08T19:53:54Z seok: How would one verify user-uploaded image in common lisp? Did anyone answer me just then
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2019-12-08T19:54:29Z Bike: phoe asked what you meant by validation.
2019-12-08T19:54:43Z adam0001: @Bike  taking another look at it now ..
2019-12-08T19:55:23Z seok: So, if someone uploads a jpg on my web, how would I ensure that it is actually a jpg file?
2019-12-08T19:56:31Z pjb: seok: you would use a jpg parser and check that it can run without detecting any error.
2019-12-08T19:56:49Z pjb: seok: it's just like for a lisp file or a C file. You use the compiler to check for errors.
2019-12-08T19:56:50Z seok: Is there a library?
2019-12-08T19:57:04Z Bike: oh, something like jpeginfo. i don't know that there's a library to do that. cl-jpeg is more about the data in the jpeg
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2019-12-08T19:57:25Z pjb: seok: unfortunately, jpeg libraries are in general written without this aspect of validation. Instead, they often prefer to crash or to allow security problems.
2019-12-08T19:58:00Z seok: I'm sure there are established libraries in other established languages like PHP node or python, I'm considering outsourcing just the validation to another language
2019-12-08T19:58:18Z seok: Hm
2019-12-08T19:58:20Z pjb: seok: use google with validating jpeg parser
2019-12-08T19:58:33Z seok: so it won't be just jpeg
2019-12-08T19:58:44Z seok: but all major image files
2019-12-08T19:58:48Z pjb: and cry.
2019-12-08T19:59:03Z pjb: seok: same problem with all file formats!
2019-12-08T19:59:10Z seok: yeah
2019-12-08T19:59:25Z pjb: seok: you have lisp, you have a problem, develop a product!
2019-12-08T19:59:41Z seok: Haha, it is too much of a big job for me!
2019-12-08T19:59:42Z pjb: seok: you could be the startup that sells to all web sites validating file parsers!
2019-12-08T19:59:54Z seok: But there are already websites doing that
2019-12-08T19:59:57Z pjb: Insteant trillionaire!
2019-12-08T20:00:14Z pjb: Yes, but they do it badly, and introducing hideous security bugs!
2019-12-08T20:00:33Z seok: I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic haha
2019-12-08T20:00:39Z pjb: Totally serious.
2019-12-08T20:00:48Z pjb: If I had the resources, this is what I'd do.
2019-12-08T20:00:57Z seok: I see no commercial benefit of writing an image validator in lisp
2019-12-08T20:01:05Z seok: if there is not one already
2019-12-08T20:03:21Z pjb: seok: your lisp program can be sold and use by any web server, not only by web browser written in lisp!
2019-12-08T20:03:34Z pjb: And the commercial benefit is that you CAN do it!
2019-12-08T20:03:48Z seok: but I'm sure there are libraries already verifying user uploaded images in PHP or node
2019-12-08T20:04:07Z pjb: Writing any validing software in other programming language fails, because then you introduce more bugs than you detect!
2019-12-08T20:04:29Z seok: Is that so?
2019-12-08T20:04:31Z pjb: seok: no, they are security hole libraries.
2019-12-08T20:04:39Z adam0001: @Bike simply copying ~/.quicklisp/ directory tree to ~/quicklisp/ runs the software. Now I'm getting this which is progress. "unhandled condition in --disable-debugger mode, quitting "
2019-12-08T20:04:47Z MichaelRaskin: Mozilla might have something secure in Rust, though
2019-12-08T20:05:32Z seok: I'm actually looking for one in node, I'm surprised it is harder than I had thought to find one
2019-12-08T20:05:56Z pjb: seok: as I said, not surprising, because any non-lisp code introduces more bugs than it can detect.
2019-12-08T20:06:10Z seok: Are you telling me a simple feature such as image verification has not been implemented properly in any popular libraries?
2019-12-08T20:06:13Z adam0001: @Bike So, thank you. Its into the too hard basket again for a while.
2019-12-08T20:06:59Z pjb: seok: yes, the purpose of libraries is not to verify or validate, but to read the image.
2019-12-08T20:07:12Z pjb: seok: google for fuzzing jpeg and cry.
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2019-12-08T20:08:06Z seok: And lisp is not vulnerable to these?
2019-12-08T20:08:20Z pjb: Less. If not compiled with (safety 0), we're a tad better.
2019-12-08T20:08:48Z seok: Then how are all these other websites coping? surely none of them are using a lisp web server
2019-12-08T20:09:06Z MichaelRaskin: I guess a _pure_ JavaScript solution would be also okay-ish safety-wise, but I am not sure one exists
2019-12-08T20:09:12Z pjb: seok: how do you think we get all those databases of personal data and credit card number available?
2019-12-08T20:09:46Z MichaelRaskin: They are using imagemagick, which supports a huge number of formats and is really unsuitable for untrusted input
2019-12-08T20:09:51Z seok: MichaelRaskin: i thought this verification would have to be handled backend?
2019-12-08T20:10:13Z pjb: seok: google for personal data million and cry.
2019-12-08T20:10:21Z MichaelRaskin: Indeed, but you mentioned Node
2019-12-08T20:10:25Z seok: So you are telling me most websites with image upload functionality are vulnerable?
2019-12-08T20:10:29Z pjb: seok: looks like you don't use google enough…
2019-12-08T20:10:53Z pjb: seok: most websteis are NOT implemented in lisp, therefore ARE vulnerable.
2019-12-08T20:10:59Z seok: Yeah, I'd imagined that node would have a library verification since node servers are pretty common and so is image upload function
2019-12-08T20:11:04Z pjb: including those who allow image upload.
2019-12-08T20:11:10Z MichaelRaskin: Many sites with image upload functionality don't even do anything with images
2019-12-08T20:11:36Z MichaelRaskin: And therefore not vlunerable themselves, just opening their users to attacks
2019-12-08T20:11:43Z seok: So I can insert malicious code through those upload uris?
2019-12-08T20:12:08Z pjb: seok: this would be an interesting experiment. Locate malicious jpegs, and test uploading them everywhere…
2019-12-08T20:12:29Z seok: I'm really surprised by what you guys are saying
2019-12-08T20:13:00Z pjb: seok: 90% won't detect anything bad. 9% will break somehow without telling you why (you could probably hack them). And I'm very optimisitic here: 1% will tell you they reject the malformed file.
2019-12-08T20:13:17Z seok: I have been having a headache for a week trying to figure this out, how everyone else is doing it
2019-12-08T20:13:26Z pjb: seok: people avoid headaches.
2019-12-08T20:13:32Z seok: But you are telling me pretty much no one is doing anything at all
2019-12-08T20:13:32Z pjb: seok: the play austrich.
2019-12-08T20:13:47Z MichaelRaskin: Well, it's not them who are bearing the risks
2019-12-08T20:13:56Z MichaelRaskin: Who cares if users get attacke
2019-12-08T20:13:58Z seok: Well it is
2019-12-08T20:13:59Z pjb: seok: but as I said, if you do something solid in lisp, you have a market, and given the number of web site, you could very well end up not billionaire, but trillionaire.
2019-12-08T20:14:02Z seok: You can attack the server
2019-12-08T20:14:11Z seok: and shut it down if someone wanted to
2019-12-08T20:14:17Z seok: or much worse
2019-12-08T20:14:19Z MichaelRaskin: Not if the server never processes the image, just relays
2019-12-08T20:14:46Z pjb: MichaelRaskin: there are legal risks, so they may want to run an antivirus software on those files.
2019-12-08T20:15:17Z MichaelRaskin: If there were real legal risks for redistributing the viruses, Google ad network would be already shut down
2019-12-08T20:15:37Z seok: I don't have enough low level level programming knowledge to do this
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2019-12-08T20:15:45Z seok: pjb why don't you make this
2019-12-08T20:15:50Z seok: you could be trillionaire
2019-12-08T20:16:04Z MichaelRaskin: Actually there is no market for that
2019-12-08T20:16:06Z pjb: Yep.  You need time to do it.  Some investment.
2019-12-08T20:16:08Z MichaelRaskin: because no one cares
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2019-12-08T20:16:40Z MichaelRaskin: And there is an easy and cheap solution for sanitising jpegs. Which is not perfectly safe but safeish
2019-12-08T20:16:48Z seok: Such as?
2019-12-08T20:16:54Z seok: That's what I'm looking for
2019-12-08T20:17:28Z pjb: Open the file in a sand box, and see if it does anything bad.
2019-12-08T20:17:49Z seok: What kind of sand box
2019-12-08T20:17:51Z MichaelRaskin: Or better: convert he file to a completely different format in a sandbox
2019-12-08T20:18:00Z MichaelRaskin: VM
2019-12-08T20:18:04Z seok: like a different server?
2019-12-08T20:18:05Z seok: ah
2019-12-08T20:18:05Z seok: yeah
2019-12-08T20:18:30Z seok: it is not foolproof but it would do
2019-12-08T20:18:32Z seok: like you said
2019-12-08T20:19:28Z seok: This threat is well documented risk https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Unrestricted_File_Upload
2019-12-08T20:19:44Z seok: I'm still not buying what you guys are saying that most websites if not all are vulnerable
2019-12-08T20:20:50Z pjb: seok: even plain text files can be dangerous.  Recently, iOS had a problem processing some unicode encoding, so you could break its Messenger application, just by sending a SMS with some chinese or so characters…
2019-12-08T20:20:57Z MichaelRaskin: Well, given that it is enough to have a remote code execution at the level of OS network stack…
2019-12-08T20:21:29Z pjb: You don't even need "execution" as such.  Any file processing is a kind of evaluation.  Basically, data = code.
2019-12-08T20:22:04Z MichaelRaskin: That's pretty far from a useful truth
2019-12-08T20:22:21Z seok: Dang, file upload is hard
2019-12-08T20:22:31Z pjb: And the worse part is that it's not because you've validated some data with some bug-free library that are good: your same data could be evaluated by a buggy program on the same system, and hose you.
2019-12-08T20:22:36Z MichaelRaskin: File upload is easy
2019-12-08T20:22:42Z pjb: seok: it's the general security problem in IT>..
2019-12-08T20:22:43Z MichaelRaskin: File processing is hard…
2019-12-08T20:23:09Z seok: How is google photos, photobucket, etc managing?
2019-12-08T20:23:12Z seok: they're not?
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2019-12-08T20:23:48Z pjb: They have people to correct things when they happen.  Like the time iCloud would show you picture of other customers :-)
2019-12-08T20:24:36Z MichaelRaskin: And also Google can afford the overhead of a few levels of isolation so that an exploit doesn't let you do anything interesting
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2019-12-08T20:25:11Z seok: This is much bigger problem than I had imagined
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2019-12-08T20:25:30Z pjb: Yep, it's a trillion dollar problem.
2019-12-08T20:25:32Z seok: I should probably stick with one of these third party image hosting and link images from there until I am ready
2019-12-08T20:25:36Z pjb: A big opportunity.
2019-12-08T20:26:09Z MichaelRaskin: You can search for «Eternal Blue» to see how security problems are actually handled in the real world. In that case, there was a lot of coverage
2019-12-08T20:26:26Z MichaelRaskin: Nope, no opportunity
2019-12-08T20:26:40Z seok: Haha. Why no opportunity Michael?
2019-12-08T20:26:42Z MichaelRaskin: Opportunity assumes anyone is going to pay for cleaning up the mess
2019-12-08T20:27:09Z seok: If one comes up with a solution then all the web hosts are going to implement it
2019-12-08T20:27:28Z MichaelRaskin: No, why would they
2019-12-08T20:27:40Z MichaelRaskin: Being insecure doesn't cost much
2019-12-08T20:28:11Z seok: Because the one who comes up the solution is going to release the hacks together so the websites who don't use the patch are going to suffer
2019-12-08T20:28:48Z MichaelRaskin: Meh. If hacks are used widely, there are patches in a couple of days
2019-12-08T20:29:16Z seok: That's the thing, it's not that profitable to promote the hack if there is no patch
2019-12-08T20:29:26Z seok: Once there is one, it becomes profitable
2019-12-08T20:29:38Z MichaelRaskin: No, I mean, exploit-specific patches
2019-12-08T20:29:51Z MichaelRaskin: It's all buffer overflow here, buffer overflow there
2019-12-08T20:29:56Z MichaelRaskin: You can always whack a mole
2019-12-08T20:30:15Z seok: Marketing is not passive
2019-12-08T20:30:29Z seok: It's easy to sell once you come up with the program
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2019-12-08T20:30:51Z seok: You just show them hacking their website infront of them
2019-12-08T20:30:59Z seok: Then your solution is bought
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2019-12-08T20:31:29Z MichaelRaskin: Except you actually need a high-value exploit to demonstrate stuff
2019-12-08T20:31:47Z MichaelRaskin: And once you use it in the open, this specific problem gets patched
2019-12-08T20:31:49Z seok: Image upload vulnerability is high value though
2019-12-08T20:31:51Z MichaelRaskin: And you need a new one
2019-12-08T20:31:58Z MichaelRaskin: It is not specific enough
2019-12-08T20:32:00Z seok: you can possibly control the whole server
2019-12-08T20:32:03Z MichaelRaskin: You need an actual exploit
2019-12-08T20:32:35Z MichaelRaskin: A real file that causes some buffer overflow
2019-12-08T20:32:46Z seok: Is it not possible?
2019-12-08T20:32:52Z MichaelRaskin: And a week later this specific buffer overflow is patched everywhere
2019-12-08T20:33:37Z seok: So if there are no practical vulnerability why have you scared me off with our previous conversation
2019-12-08T20:33:57Z MichaelRaskin: There are, and a lot, but finding them is not free
2019-12-08T20:33:57Z seok: Am I fine with just checking the file MIME and extension?
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2019-12-08T20:35:04Z MichaelRaskin: If you are not trying to process the file, just serve it further, checking the first few bytes for a valid JPEG header is enjough to make it not-your-problem (but your users' one)
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2019-12-08T20:45:06Z pjb: So you just use file(1).
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2019-12-08T20:46:34Z MichaelRaskin: «I cannot print on Tuesdays»
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2019-12-08T22:18:45Z akoana: hmm,after (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") i got debugger invoked on a QL-DIST:BADLY-SIZED-LOCAL-ARCHIVE ... The archive file "bodge-glfw-stable-7519a922-git.tgz" for "bodge-glfw" is the
2019-12-08T22:18:48Z akoana: wrong size: expected 511,390, got 39,493  but ./quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/archives/bodge-glfw-stable-7519a922-git.tgz has 511390 bytes and the tar.gz is ok, should I ignore this error?
2019-12-08T22:20:47Z akoana: (SBCL 1.5.4, x86_64 GNU/Linux, quicklisp client up to date)
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2019-12-08T22:30:54Z akoana: as a lisp newbie I'm rather confused and have no clue how to fix this, so anyone bringing light into this is greatly appreciated - thanks in advance
2019-12-08T22:33:27Z _death: you can do (trace ql-util:file-size) and see the pathname and resulting size
2019-12-08T22:35:21Z no-defun-allowed: What's the SLIME package named that makes indentation in Emacs reasonable?
2019-12-08T22:35:44Z akoana: _death: thank you, hmm, I can't repeat the (ql:update-dist "quicklisp"), it says  You already have the latest version of "quicklisp"
2019-12-08T22:35:50Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: (require 'slime-cl-indent)
2019-12-08T22:36:01Z no-defun-allowed: Righteo, thanks.
2019-12-08T22:36:29Z akoana: _death: how can I "force" quicklisp to retry the update?
2019-12-08T22:36:47Z _death: akoana: well, can you load bodge-glfw?
2019-12-08T22:37:00Z akoana: I'll try...
2019-12-08T22:38:14Z akoana: _death: (ql:quickload :bodge-glfw) worked, no errors
2019-12-08T22:38:18Z _death: is it possible that after you got that error you picked the DELETE-AND-RETRY restart?
2019-12-08T22:38:55Z akoana: I picked 1: [ABORT]
2019-12-08T22:40:23Z nirved: could it be that the download was happening in another thread, and wasn't yet finished at that point?
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2019-12-08T22:41:33Z _death: you could assume all is well until you hit a problem, or you could remove quicklisp libraries and reinstall..
2019-12-08T22:41:50Z akoana: nirved: hmm, I don't know, it said "main thread" RUNNING
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2019-12-08T22:43:03Z akoana: _death: yeah, it seems to work, thank you
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2019-12-08T22:48:55Z akoana: nirved: thank you too
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2019-12-08T23:02:38Z akoana: so probably chosing DELETE-AND-RETRY would have fixed it, I just was scared by "DELETE" :)
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2019-12-08T23:17:07Z LdBeth: https://blog.plan99.net/modern-garbage-collection-part-2-1c88847abcfd
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2019-12-09T03:24:37Z no-defun-allowed: Are there any clients for the SOCKS proxy protocol?
2019-12-09T03:26:08Z reepca: weird question: is it normal for it to be possible to evaluate lisp code but not compile it? As in, I can copy+paste it into the REPL and it'll work fine, but trying to compile it with C-c C-k causes an error?
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2019-12-09T03:27:27Z reepca: I've narrowed it down to this sample: http://paste.debian.net/1120299
2019-12-09T03:28:24Z reepca: It gets to "Got here 1", then produces a condition of type SB-INT:BUG
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2019-12-09T03:29:59Z reepca: Due to my distribution's packaging of flexi-streams and usocket, loading them produces a warning about not following "asdf version numbering convention", but aside from that they load fine when pasted into the repl
2019-12-09T03:30:31Z Bike: it's not normal, but it's possible
2019-12-09T03:31:37Z reepca: full error and backtrace for those skilled at making sense of it: http://paste.debian.net/1120300
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2019-12-09T03:34:57Z loke`: reepca: When you get a failed AVER, the first thuing to do is to make sure you have the latest version of SBCL
2019-12-09T03:35:02Z loke`: They fix bugs all the time.
2019-12-09T03:35:39Z reepca: hm, I've got 1.5.8, so I guess I'm one version behind
2019-12-09T03:36:04Z loke`: I always build from Source
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2019-12-09T03:36:20Z Bike: unfrotunately without the weird versioning this is kind of nontrivial to reproduce
2019-12-09T03:36:50Z loke`: reepca: Wait, are you usin g the distrobutions packaging of Lisp librarioes?
2019-12-09T03:36:52Z loke`: Don't do that
2019-12-09T03:37:04Z loke`: You should uninstall all those packages, and then pull it using Quicklisp.
2019-12-09T03:37:19Z Bike: still, it ought not to crash
2019-12-09T03:38:01Z loke`: Well, sure. But there is no way we'll ever be able to invesigate unless we know they're not using 10 year old versions of some random library (which tends to happen with Debian in particular)
2019-12-09T03:38:26Z Bike: calling asdf/parse-defsystem::parse-version manually doesn't break for me
2019-12-09T03:38:50Z Bike: though i'm not calling with the component and stuff
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2019-12-09T04:00:37Z ck_: no-defun-allowed: firefox is a client for the SOCKS proxy protocol
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2019-12-09T04:20:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-12-09T04:23:25Z LdBeth: Hello beach
2019-12-09T04:23:48Z LdBeth: I get stuck at AoC Day 7
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2019-12-09T04:26:42Z LdBeth: What I naturally think it the emulator returns a closure preserves the execution state when executing IO instruction
2019-12-09T04:28:30Z beach: LdBeth: The grammar of your last phrase is strange, so I can't parse it.
2019-12-09T04:29:31Z ck_: try s/it/is,/ and s/preserves/which preserves/
2019-12-09T04:29:43Z LdBeth: Sorry for that
2019-12-09T04:30:03Z beach: ck_: My brain is to small to attempt such things.
2019-12-09T04:30:15Z fengshaun: it looks like (loop for x in xs sum x into y finally (+ y 2)) doesn't work and returns nil. I have a list of numbers I want to sum but then want to do something at the end while x points to the last element. I can think of a way to do it with (do), but can I do it with (loop)?
2019-12-09T04:30:47Z beach: fengshaun: finally (return ...)
2019-12-09T04:30:58Z fengshaun: *return*, thanks
2019-12-09T04:32:16Z LdBeth: Mine is also small that has run out all energy trying solve that question that it does not have enough for structuring sentence correctly
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2019-12-09T05:06:45Z White_Flame: fengshaun: only accumulation clauses return a value from LOOP, else you get NIL without a manual return
2019-12-09T05:07:05Z fengshaun: that makes sense, thanks
2019-12-09T05:07:32Z White_Flame: so you could do (loop ... collect x finally (do-cleanup)) and still get X collected
2019-12-09T05:08:52Z fengshaun: without explicit return?
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2019-12-09T05:09:50Z White_Flame: right, COLLECT defines the value that would return from LOOP
2019-12-09T05:10:11Z White_Flame: it's an accumulation clause: collect, append, nconc, count, sum, etc
2019-12-09T05:10:32Z fengshaun: nice, thanks
2019-12-09T05:10:42Z White_Flame: if you use RETURN, you would usurp that, and it would be consing up the COLLECT value needlessly, afaik
2019-12-09T05:11:04Z fengshaun: oh, so double conses
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2019-12-09T05:33:49Z aeth: White_Flame: well, no, what you'd do if you needed to is you'd :collect the-thing :into a-variable and then you could :finally (return (values a-variable whatever-else))
2019-12-09T05:34:27Z White_Flame: yep, but :collect x :finally (return something-else) wastes the collection work
2019-12-09T05:34:28Z aeth: It's fairly common to use two collects to generate two different lists depending on some condition
2019-12-09T05:34:36Z aeth: right
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2019-12-09T05:42:46Z equwal: What are some active biology related projects in CL? Obviously there is Clasp.
2019-12-09T05:43:08Z equwal: https://www.reddit.com/r/biolisp/comments/e84l1w/biolisp_has_been_created/
2019-12-09T05:43:20Z equwal: Looking to add things to this subreddit.
2019-12-09T05:43:21Z fengshaun: how do you collect depending on condition, I had to inject bogus values if a condition wasn't met and then filtered the resulting list
2019-12-09T05:43:49Z equwal: push/nreverse
2019-12-09T05:44:05Z White_Flame: :when (condition) :collect var
2019-12-09T05:44:11Z reepca: fengshaun: conditional clauses apply to loop clauses, including accumulation clauses
2019-12-09T05:44:37Z fengshaun: :when thanks!
2019-12-09T05:44:51Z fengshaun: I need to keep that periodic table of loop clauses handy
2019-12-09T05:45:12Z fengshaun: time to bed for now! thanks for the helps
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2019-12-09T05:51:22Z reepca: Simplified that error from before into a hopefully-reproducible form: http://paste.debian.net/1120305
2019-12-09T05:51:53Z reepca: still produces a "failed AVER" error
2019-12-09T05:54:52Z reepca: when compiled, but not when evaluated
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2019-12-09T05:57:46Z equwal: fengshaun: or don't loop -- iterate.
2019-12-09T05:59:13Z reepca: building sbcl 1.5.9, will see if the error occurs there too...
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2019-12-09T07:38:13Z reepca: is there a preferred way to "strip away" the fill-pointer and adjustable properties of an array, giving a simple-array?
2019-12-09T07:40:28Z phoe: reepca: write a function that does: if the array is simple, return it; otherwise, call alexandria:copy-array with all properties set to NIL
2019-12-09T07:44:02Z reepca: experimentally, copy-seq also seems to work
2019-12-09T07:46:33Z beach should provide a function in SICL to do that, since all arrays are simple and all vectors have a slot for the fill pointer (but it might have the contents NIL, of course).
2019-12-09T07:47:05Z beach: So all it takes is to set that slot to NIL to accomplish the desired effect.
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2019-12-09T10:48:40Z phoe: minion: memo for reepca: oh, if you have a one-dimensional array, then COPY-SEQ will work, yes
2019-12-09T10:48:40Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell reepca when he/she/it next speaks.
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2019-12-09T11:27:51Z phoe: beach: do you have any protocol for switching between first-class environments?
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2019-12-09T11:28:43Z phoe: Macros won't necessarily work, since they happen too late. (WITH-ENVIRONMENT (FIND-ENVIRONMENT :FOO) BAR:BAZ) will not even compile if the current environment does not have the package BAR or its external symbol BAZ.
2019-12-09T11:29:07Z phoe: I mean, that isn't really switching - it's executing statements cross-environment.
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2019-12-09T11:30:31Z trittweiler: Greetings from sbcl20 :)
2019-12-09T11:31:56Z phoe: trittweiler: tell everyone that the new SBCL logo is awesome
2019-12-09T11:32:43Z splittist: reepca: COERCE ?
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2019-12-09T11:34:12Z phoe: splittist: COERCE might not get rid of the fillpointer or adjustability
2019-12-09T11:34:42Z pjb: Note: there's no type specifier for fill-pointer-less vectors.
2019-12-09T11:36:05Z pjb: You would have to use satisfies and the only way to detect a fill-pointer-less vectors is to try fill-pointer and catch a type-error.  Which is strange since there's no type specifier for fill-pointer-less (or fill-pointer) vectors…
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2019-12-09T11:36:30Z pjb: When I say that types are useless…
2019-12-09T11:37:49Z pjb: beach: does sicl give a type-error on (fill-pointer (make-array 3 :fill-pointer nil))?
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2019-12-09T11:38:24Z pjb: well, there is a semi-predicate, so (and array (satisfies array-has-fill-pointer-p))
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2019-12-09T12:31:16Z phoe: beach: one would need a reader macro that can store the form to evaluate in a string and then call EVAL READ-FROM-STRING in the new environment. The Lisp reader cannot reliably work cross-environment because of the differences in read-time environment state (readtables, packages, symbols, etc..).
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2019-12-09T12:48:29Z Xach:    
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2019-12-09T13:07:06Z phoe: Xach: yes
2019-12-09T13:07:27Z Xach: I need new inspiration on https://lispblog.xach.com/post/104872127228/a-verbosity-conundrum
2019-12-09T13:07:36Z Xach: I still can't see a way out
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2019-12-09T13:23:12Z freyr69: How to unwind the stack and ignore the error within a handler-bind's handler?
2019-12-09T13:23:30Z freyr69: Instead of doing invoke-restart
2019-12-09T13:23:35Z jdz: freyr69: You have to do a non-local control transfer.
2019-12-09T13:24:19Z jdz: freyr69: Like have a surrounding block and do RETURN, or use CATCH/THROW.
2019-12-09T13:24:38Z jdz: TAGBODY with GO should also work.
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2019-12-09T13:24:54Z freyr69: By what means? throwing an exception?
2019-12-09T13:25:00Z freyr69: Ah, I see
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2019-12-09T13:26:23Z jdz: clhs 5.2
2019-12-09T13:26:24Z specbot: Transfer of Control to an Exit Point: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_b.htm
2019-12-09T13:26:28Z freyr69: Thanks
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2019-12-09T13:28:13Z _death: Xach: I agree that this is an issue.. I remember using :verbose t with some of my systems and finding helpful warnings..
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2019-12-09T13:33:16Z _death: Xach: and it gets worse over time because it sweeps warnings under a rug and people who don't use :verbose t now and then don't know about them
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2019-12-09T13:35:39Z phoe: Xach: hm
2019-12-09T13:35:46Z phoe: can this be achieved without modifying ASDF?
2019-12-09T13:36:06Z mfiano: I agree it is an issue, and being able to differentiate "infrastructury" codes from not would be useful, but I'm happy with #+quicklisp(setf ql:*quickload-verbose* t) in my implementation init file. I find a lot of bugs that are reported to infrastructure codes with this, even if it is always verbose.
2019-12-09T13:36:44Z freyr69: jdz: Surprisingly, return-from doesn't work, or at least not as I would expect
2019-12-09T13:36:47Z freyr69: https://pastebin.com/SbGR87LE
2019-12-09T13:36:53Z freyr69: What did I do wrong
2019-12-09T13:37:33Z phoe: freyr69: wrong indentation
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2019-12-09T13:38:01Z phoe: the second ERROR form is actually another handler in HANDLER-BIND
2019-12-09T13:38:05Z phoe: and not the body
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2019-12-09T13:38:36Z phoe: (block test (handler-bind ((error (lambda (ignore) (return-from test 42)))) (error "Error")))
2019-12-09T13:38:45Z phoe: this is properly parenthesized and returns 42
2019-12-09T13:39:24Z freyr69: Ah, shame on me. Quite right you are
2019-12-09T13:39:50Z phoe: you should try using an editor that automatically indents code for you, so you notice such mistakes early - emacs with aggressive-indent-mode does this for me and it automatically indented the form by its actual semantical meaning instead of the one you tried to convey by manual indentation
2019-12-09T13:40:17Z phoe: it's practical for me - I can forget about a whole class of parenthesisation bugs like this.
2019-12-09T13:41:14Z freyr69: I use emacs and slime, I was just trying this in repl and all the fancy parmatch stuff doesn't work there for me out of the box for some reason
2019-12-09T13:41:31Z freyr69: Editing buffer shows this just fine
2019-12-09T13:41:56Z phoe: freyr69: I pasted this into a code buffer, not a REPL buffer - I couldn't get aggressive indent mode to work there for some reason
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2019-12-09T13:42:54Z phoe: Xach: I ask because I could take a break from shoveling cruft outta CCL to get to know ASDF and try to implement something like selective verbosity - e.g. only be verbose when loading systems (:foo :bar :baz) and nothing else, including their dependencies
2019-12-09T13:43:16Z phoe: so basically when you tell ASDF to be quiet, you also get to tell it "be quiet, except for..."
2019-12-09T13:43:22Z phoe: I think that would be a solution
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2019-12-09T13:47:55Z Xach: phoe: i think what i want is "establish some dynamic environment when loading a system based on some property of the system, whether recursively or not"
2019-12-09T13:48:31Z Xach: and this is as a third party - can't use around methods safely
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2019-12-09T13:48:59Z Xach: the "property" might be intrinsic to the system but could easily be from looking up the system's name in some table to learn about it
2019-12-09T13:49:10Z Xach: or look at some piece of the filesystem path of the definition, etc
2019-12-09T13:49:32Z phoe: Xach: so basically a per-system dynamic environment
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2019-12-09T13:50:01Z phoe: as if you could wrap a PROGV around each operation and be able to supply the vars and vals, something like that?
2019-12-09T13:50:37Z Xach: phoe: yes
2019-12-09T13:51:48Z Xach: phoe: i was thinking about doing a special case - when looking up systems and one is found that is provided by quicklisp, wrap it in a stub system that can be specialized safely, and store the "real" system to do the real work in it
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2019-12-09T13:53:17Z Xach: but that has its own problems - the search function returns a pathname currently and i'm not sure how best to return a stub system instead
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2019-12-09T13:56:46Z phoe: Xach: I'd still prefer to modify ASDF in a programmable way - a PROGV around each operation does seem like a good choice for me. Preferably then document it as something that is explicitly meant to be used by end-users only and not as a part of system definition, so we can at least try to avoid the ASDF ecosystem becoming an even bigger clusterfuck than it is now.
2019-12-09T13:57:19Z phoe: This way, an empty PROGV is a PROGN, so we have a no-op unless the user explicitly specifies the vars and vals to be rebound around each operation.
2019-12-09T13:57:51Z Xach: phoe: If some other way can be found it would be good, because of the uncertainty of asdf updates and their propagation to implementations
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2019-12-09T13:58:55Z phoe: Xach: correct. I'll dig into the manuals and the code later to figure out if the current structure allows for such a hack.
2019-12-09T13:59:24Z phoe: I know that ASDF is upgradeable on its own though, so you, as an end user, could explicitly load a newer/patched ASDF over an old one.
2019-12-09T13:59:39Z _death: maybe asdf has (or should have) a hook that can be called when a system is loaded?
2019-12-09T13:59:45Z Xach: _death: ha ha ha
2019-12-09T14:00:24Z _death: often complex systems lack basic usability features :)
2019-12-09T14:00:53Z Xach: phoe: i don't think progv suffices
2019-12-09T14:01:02Z Xach: the environment i want to establish includes handler binds
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2019-12-09T14:01:32Z phoe: Xach: OK, so you'll want arbitrary code execution. That would indeed mandate something like *macroexpand-hook*.
2019-12-09T14:02:41Z _death: I once wrote this https://gist.github.com/death/4471dee58e52258fea2eb614fc52b59c
2019-12-09T14:02:51Z _death: but as you can see, naughty around method
2019-12-09T14:03:43Z phoe: the issue is that we can't easily compose these
2019-12-09T14:04:10Z phoe: as easily as an asdf:*operate-hook* would allow us to
2019-12-09T14:04:56Z Xach: _death: i think the around method could break things
2019-12-09T14:06:01Z _death: right.. asdf should provide a way to do it safely
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2019-12-09T14:06:40Z phoe: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html 11.1
2019-12-09T14:06:50Z phoe: > Note that there is no around-load hook. This is on purpose. Some implementations such as ECL, GCL or MKCL link object files, which allows for no such hook. Other implementations allow for concatenating FASL files, which doesn’t allow for such a hook either. We aim to discourage something that’s not portable, and has some dubious impact on performance and semantics even when it is possible. Things you
2019-12-09T14:06:56Z phoe: might want to do with an around-load hook are better done around-compile, though it may at times require some creativity (see e.g. the package-renaming system).
2019-12-09T14:07:23Z phoe: the same chapter describes a thing called :compile-check
2019-12-09T14:07:25Z phoe: > Using this hook, you may achieve such effects as: locally renaming packages, binding *readtables* and other syntax-controlling variables, handling warnings and other conditions, proclaiming consistent optimization settings, saving code coverage information, maintaining meta-data about compilation timings, setting gensym counters and PRNG seeds and other sources of non-determinism, overriding the
2019-12-09T14:07:31Z phoe: source-location and/or timestamping systems, checking that some compile-time side-effects were properly balanced, etc.
2019-12-09T14:07:35Z phoe: > handling warnings and other conditions
2019-12-09T14:07:42Z phoe: Xach: this smells of what you described earlier
2019-12-09T14:07:51Z Xach: phoe: that is part of :compile-check?
2019-12-09T14:08:04Z phoe: or rather, :around-compile
2019-12-09T14:08:10Z Xach: phoe: i worry that it is intended for system *authors* and not system *loaders* like quicklisp
2019-12-09T14:08:21Z Xach: that is, the :around-compile must be written directly into the system definition
2019-12-09T14:08:46Z phoe: hmmmm
2019-12-09T14:09:03Z phoe: if that is so, then you could let ASDF load the system definition
2019-12-09T14:09:29Z phoe: and then write your own code that hacks into the system definition objects and sets your own :around-compile hooks that executes your code and then calls the previous ones
2019-12-09T14:11:18Z phoe: this should be equivalent to an *asdf-load-hook* that only executes when particular systems are being compiled
2019-12-09T14:11:33Z phoe: and you'll get to execute arbitrary code, which is what you want.
2019-12-09T14:11:51Z phoe: and it doesn't require ASDF modifications or upgrades
2019-12-09T14:11:51Z Xach: Hmm
2019-12-09T14:12:12Z phoe: does it sound sane^Wplausible?
2019-12-09T14:12:55Z Xach: it sounds possible. now i wonder where best to intercede.
2019-12-09T14:13:40Z phoe: ql:quickload calls asdf:load-system. It could call asdf:load-system-definition or whatever function exists that instantiates the system definition objects *without* loading any actual code.
2019-12-09T14:13:52Z phoe: Once the objects are instantiated, mutate them as appropriate.
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2019-12-09T14:13:56Z phoe: Then call asdf:load-system as usual.
2019-12-09T14:13:57Z Xach: phoe: but what of recursive calls?
2019-12-09T14:14:02Z Xach: that is automatic
2019-12-09T14:14:18Z _death: what about load-time warnings? Xach is right that this reasoning seems to apply to system authors.. after all, the concatenated fasl or whatever gets loaded and it may be useful to have a hook for that
2019-12-09T14:14:27Z phoe: Xach: my question is whether it is possible for ASDF to create the whole system tree without loading any code
2019-12-09T14:14:43Z Xach: phoe: i don't think so.
2019-12-09T14:14:51Z phoe: how does it compute dependencies then
2019-12-09T14:15:13Z phoe: it can't load code for FOO without loading BAR that is its dependency
2019-12-09T14:15:23Z phoe: so it needs to first figure out what is the system definition for BAR
2019-12-09T14:15:29Z phoe: and that it has another dependency that is BAZ
2019-12-09T14:15:33Z phoe: et cetera, et cetera
2019-12-09T14:15:35Z Xach: phoe: I mean that asdf system files are lisp programs and may do anything
2019-12-09T14:15:42Z Xach: phoe: some files load things on their own
2019-12-09T14:15:57Z Xach: You can't simply look at the system definition form and have universal success
2019-12-09T14:16:14Z Xach: there is also :defsystem-depends-on
2019-12-09T14:16:34Z Xach: That will load code in order to load the system definition
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2019-12-09T14:16:47Z phoe: sigh, that is correct
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2019-12-09T14:19:32Z phoe: this means that it's impossible to have that without digging into ASDF
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2019-12-09T14:20:53Z beach: phoe: I don't have a protocol for switching environments.
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2019-12-09T14:22:04Z phoe: beach: OK, understood.
2019-12-09T14:24:56Z beach: pjb: I haven't actually written those functions yet, but the Common Lisp HyperSpec says that an error should be signaled if the vector does not have a fill pointer, so I think I will always signal an error.
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2019-12-09T14:26:28Z beach: pjb: Actually, that particular one is written and it does signal an error when the vector does not have a fill pointer.
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2019-12-09T14:31:44Z beach: phoe: Environments are not packages, so it is not the reader that is the problem.
2019-12-09T14:32:13Z pjb: beach: ok.  I understood that your vectors always have a slot for a fill-pointer, filled with NIL when the vector has no fill-pointer.  So I wanted to check that FILL-POINTER didn't just return this slot.
2019-12-09T14:32:50Z beach: pjb: Right, it does not.  The accessor for the slot is called sicl-arrary:vector-fill-pointer.
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2019-12-09T14:36:41Z phoe: beach: yes. I thought of the issue from a usability perspective though - I have an environment, and I would like to evaluate some code inside it. That code can't be in form of Lisp data since Lisp data depends on the properties of its environment (most notably: symbols) in order to exist and function.
2019-12-09T14:37:07Z beach: That is not true.
2019-12-09T14:37:36Z beach: You can do (sicl-global-environment:eval <form> <environment>).
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2019-12-09T14:37:51Z beach: Symbols are valid across environment.
2019-12-09T14:39:48Z phoe: beach: Can each symbol have a different home package in each environment?
2019-12-09T14:39:56Z beach: No.
2019-12-09T14:40:05Z beach: The package is a slot in the symbol.
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2019-12-09T14:40:52Z phoe: So if I can access a symbol, then I can access and uniquely identify its package, correct?
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2019-12-09T14:41:05Z beach: Yes.
2019-12-09T14:41:40Z beach: (SYMBOL-PACKAGE <symbol>)
2019-12-09T14:42:09Z phoe: Hm.
2019-12-09T14:42:53Z phoe: But each environment has its own package table.
2019-12-09T14:43:27Z phoe: So it is possible for two symbols to have the name "MAKE-THREAD" and for each of them to have a home package named "BORDEAUX-THREADS".
2019-12-09T14:43:39Z Bike: but they'd be different packages
2019-12-09T14:43:45Z phoe: But the two packages can be in separate package tables that belong to different environments.
2019-12-09T14:44:04Z beach: phoe: Wow, hold on!
2019-12-09T14:44:25Z phoe: If so, which symbol is utilized when I do (sicl-global-environment:eval '(bordeaux-threads:make-thread ...) my-environment)?
2019-12-09T14:44:30Z phoe: beach: OK, holding on.
2019-12-09T14:44:36Z beach: phoe: Er, yes, I think that's true.
2019-12-09T14:44:43Z beach: Let me think...
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2019-12-09T14:44:52Z Bike: the symbol that's read in whatever environment that's read in, no?
2019-12-09T14:44:57Z beach: I think it will be the same situation as with FIND-CLASS.
2019-12-09T14:45:00Z phoe: I think that the Lisp reader reads and interns the symbol in the global environment.
2019-12-09T14:45:20Z phoe: That symbol is then passed over to being evaluated in MY-ENVIRONMENT.
2019-12-09T14:45:22Z beach: So Bike is right.
2019-12-09T14:45:25Z Bike: what it does is use find-package relative to a global environment
2019-12-09T14:45:33Z Bike: so it'll get the bordeaux-threads package in place at that time
2019-12-09T14:46:02Z Bike: not my-environment, unless they happen to be the same.
2019-12-09T14:46:05Z phoe: So we can't easily pass symbols to SICL-G-E:EVAL without leaking information from the global environment.
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2019-12-09T14:46:30Z beach: phoe: They symbol contains no information about the global environment.
2019-12-09T14:46:38Z beach: s/y//
2019-12-09T14:46:53Z Bike: what the environment has is a mapping from package names to packages. packages are not part of environments per se. as far as i understand.
2019-12-09T14:47:06Z beach: Bike is right again.
2019-12-09T14:47:23Z Bike: so, yes, in this situation you could get an unbound function error.
2019-12-09T14:47:28Z phoe: Does the symbol have a slot with the name of its home package, or its home package?
2019-12-09T14:47:38Z Bike: its home package.
2019-12-09T14:47:48Z beach: Bike is right.
2019-12-09T14:47:55Z Bike: i should just let you explain, huh
2019-12-09T14:48:00Z beach: No.
2019-12-09T14:48:03Z beach: You are doing fine.
2019-12-09T14:48:08Z phoe: So S-G-E:EVAL gets a symbol that refers to a package that is not known in the local environment. Hmm.
2019-12-09T14:48:22Z Bike: right, so it'll be unfbound, probably
2019-12-09T14:48:35Z beach: Very likely.
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2019-12-09T14:48:41Z phoe: So we can't easily (s-g-e:eval '(bt:make-thread ...) my-env).
2019-12-09T14:48:58Z Bike: well what do you want to do exactly
2019-12-09T14:49:03Z phoe: We'd need to (s-g-e:eval (list (find-symbol "MAKE-THREAD" "BT" my-env) ...) my-env)
2019-12-09T14:49:40Z phoe: I'm thinking from a user perspective - "I'd like to evaluate some code in an environment that I just created"
2019-12-09T14:49:47Z _death: I guess phoe wants to map symbols to symbols, sublis style
2019-12-09T14:50:15Z Bike: "evaluate code in an environment" is kind of a nontrivial concept i guess
2019-12-09T14:50:16Z phoe: like, make a thread in the new environment - because I just loaded a custom version of bordeaux-threads in it
2019-12-09T14:50:22Z phoe: and I want to check how it behaves
2019-12-09T14:50:28Z Bike: like if the code is the form, you ought to construct it in your environment as well
2019-12-09T14:50:31Z Bike: that doesn't seem weird to me
2019-12-09T14:50:55Z phoe: hmm
2019-12-09T14:51:22Z beach: phoe: Environments are not meant to be fine-grained things, as opposed to modules.
2019-12-09T14:51:33Z phoe: so cross-environment evaluation doesn't work unless we either make a big circle to only construct the form using symbols from the target environment, or just read from strings
2019-12-09T14:51:37Z phoe: I see
2019-12-09T14:51:46Z Bike: of course you could also just do (funcall (find-symbol "MAKE-THREAD" (find-package "BT" my-env)) ...)
2019-12-09T14:51:52Z _death: phoe: but in such scenarios you'll want only some symbols to be mapped, not all
2019-12-09T14:52:21Z phoe: _death: what do you mean?
2019-12-09T14:52:32Z beach: phoe: The most likely scenario is that you would evaluate something like SWITCH-ENVIRONMENT, work for a while there, perhaps export a function or two to a different environment, then switch again.
2019-12-09T14:52:52Z _death: phoe: I mean sharing information, such as symbols, between environments
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2019-12-09T14:53:29Z phoe: beach: I see, so basically a magical operator that is guaranteed to be the same in all environments and allows you to switch around, unless you want to jail some code in a particular environment.
2019-12-09T14:54:06Z _death: phoe: so you may want only env1:bt:make-thread to be replaced with env2:bt:make-thread (and then, you may want that only when it's in operator position.. so you actually want a walker)
2019-12-09T14:54:28Z phoe: _death: yes, and this becomes even more complex and error-prone at this point
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2019-12-09T14:55:29Z beach: phoe: If I understand you correctly, that sounds right.
2019-12-09T14:56:16Z phoe: beach: OK, I understand that.
2019-12-09T14:56:26Z beach: phoe: In this case, you might have a particular environment containing BORDEAUX-THREADS and perhaps systems that it uses.
2019-12-09T14:57:12Z phoe: beach: and possibly (s-g-e:eval (translate-form '(bt:make-thread ...) my-env) my-env)
2019-12-09T14:57:16Z beach: phoe: You would then export the functions, classes, etc. in the protocol to your usual work environment.
2019-12-09T14:57:49Z phoe: where TRANSLATE-FORM attempts to walk the code and do what _death described
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2019-12-09T14:58:11Z phoe: of course, it won't work in every case - e.g. when I have BT only loaded in my-env
2019-12-09T14:58:19Z beach: There is no reason why any translation would have to be made.
2019-12-09T14:58:29Z phoe: beach: convenience
2019-12-09T14:58:40Z Bike: ok, so the scenario here is we want to make a change to bt and test it?
2019-12-09T14:59:08Z phoe: I'd like to be able to write (s-g-e:eval '(bt:make-thread ...) my-env) even though the Lisp reader would normally choke on it because there is no package BT in the global environment
2019-12-09T14:59:17Z phoe: Let's suppose BT is only loaded in MY-ENV
2019-12-09T14:59:18Z phoe: Bike: yes
2019-12-09T14:59:18Z Bike: we could write out our patched bt code, then make an environment, load the bt code in that environment, and then compile/load whatever other code we want to test in that environment
2019-12-09T14:59:33Z Bike: wouldn't be doing anything like manual eval calls
2019-12-09T14:59:40Z beach: phoe: Why on earth would there be not BT package in the current environment?
2019-12-09T14:59:53Z _death: suppose you have (setf (get 'bt:make-thread 'danger-level) :moderate) that affects part of the system
2019-12-09T15:00:00Z phoe: beach: e.g. because I haven't loaded BT in it
2019-12-09T15:00:01Z beach: s/not/no/
2019-12-09T15:00:34Z phoe: let's suppose that I have a package named DANGEROUS-PACKAGE that I only want to load in a separate environment because otherwise it could mess my stuff up.
2019-12-09T15:00:38Z beach: phoe: You would share the BT package between the special environment and the current one.
2019-12-09T15:00:52Z beach: phoe: It would be horribly inconvenient to use otherwise.
2019-12-09T15:01:33Z phoe: beach: this implies that I can't have two versions of BT loaded at the same time, one in the global env, the other in the local one
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2019-12-09T15:01:51Z phoe: because if they share a package, then they can e.g. mutate each others' symbols
2019-12-09T15:01:53Z beach: phoe: Sure you can.  But the package would be the same.
2019-12-09T15:02:12Z beach: phoe: Symbols are immutable, except for UNINTERN.
2019-12-09T15:02:17Z Bike: bindings are also part of the environment.
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2019-12-09T15:02:23Z phoe: ...oh wait a second
2019-12-09T15:02:31Z phoe: ooh, I see now
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2019-12-09T15:05:34Z _death: so the symbol bt:make-thread is shared between the environments.. is there a scenario where this sharing is not desired? e.g., where find-symbol should return true in one and not in the other
2019-12-09T15:06:26Z beach: _death: There could be, but I can't think of one.
2019-12-09T15:06:28Z phoe: perhaps the case of unintern
2019-12-09T15:06:43Z phoe: if you unintern a symbol in one environment, is it uninterned in the other one as well?
2019-12-09T15:07:09Z beach: Yes, identity is preserved as usual.
2019-12-09T15:07:38Z Bike: the symbol to package relation is not part of the environment
2019-12-09T15:08:29Z _death: what about package visibility?
2019-12-09T15:09:09Z Bike: well, what's in the environment here is the mapping from package names to packages. package use and stuff is part of packages, so it shouldn't be part of the environment.
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2019-12-09T15:09:46Z phoe: this is a possible jailbreak - if a hostile package I read uninterns bt:make-thread from :bt, then the global environment is affected by that
2019-12-09T15:10:02Z phoe: because then I can no longer (bt:make-thread #'foo) in the global environment
2019-12-09T15:10:17Z _death: phoe: so have unintern fbound to danger-will-robinson
2019-12-09T15:10:22Z oni-on-ion: keep a copy of all symbols just in case =p
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2019-12-09T15:12:15Z Bike: that's the kind of thing that hasn't come up because beach has been working on this stuff for bootstrapping rather than for sandboxing. sandboxing is kind of hard.
2019-12-09T15:12:35Z phoe: Yes, I see.
2019-12-09T15:12:39Z Bike: environments might help but they're not a complete solution
2019-12-09T15:13:23Z Bike: there are easier to understand problems, like functions that take function designator arguments
2019-12-09T15:13:44Z phoe: yep
2019-12-09T15:14:06Z beach: phoe: For scenarios regarding malware you would have to go from SICL to CLOSOS.  The latter has capabilities that allow you to have different permissions etc.
2019-12-09T15:14:22Z phoe: and there are also memory issues, such as preventing the whole system from going down due to one user (loop for x = nil then (cons x x)).
2019-12-09T15:14:31Z phoe: beach: yes, I see now.
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2019-12-09T15:15:27Z beach: Right, quotas would also be part of CLOSOS, if I can figure out how.
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2019-12-09T15:17:24Z shka__: this is one of things that Racket seems to be doing well
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2019-12-09T15:17:55Z phoe: shka__: how? Does it have any kind of multiuser quotas?
2019-12-09T15:18:35Z oni-on-ion: how is CLOSOS these days
2019-12-09T15:18:42Z shka__: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/Sandboxed_Evaluation.html
2019-12-09T15:18:51Z shka__: phoe: ^^
2019-12-09T15:18:57Z beach: oni-on-ion: It still doesn't exist.
2019-12-09T15:19:01Z shka__: oni-on-ion: beach is working on SICL
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2019-12-09T15:19:39Z phoe: shka__: I see, interesting.
2019-12-09T15:19:39Z oni-on-ion: ahh =) hmm.
2019-12-09T15:20:10Z shka__: phoe: Racket has a lot of stuff going for it
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2019-12-09T15:20:44Z shka__: it also allows to control access to the files or network sockets
2019-12-09T15:21:20Z _death: for CL there's a sandbox attempt here https://github.com/tlikonen/cl-eval-bot/tree/master/src .. I guess you could add quotas to potentially consing operations.. but I'd look into qemu :)
2019-12-09T15:21:51Z shka__: _death: i recently found your minhash implementation in gist ;-)
2019-12-09T15:22:02Z shka__: it was helpfull
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2019-12-09T15:22:54Z _death: shka: cool.. I've lots of snippets like that.. helps me to understand and possible grow them later on if I need to
2019-12-09T15:23:00Z phoe: anyway, popping one discussion off my stack
2019-12-09T15:23:17Z phoe: Xach: I could try and take a look at the ASDF internals later
2019-12-09T15:23:47Z beach: Bike: Thanks for all the help!
2019-12-09T15:24:03Z phoe: beach: Bike: thank you two for explaining, too!
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2019-12-09T15:25:07Z beach: Anytime.
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2019-12-09T18:59:59Z pjb: beach: If I understand correctly, environments share packages (interned symbols, exported symbols, package use lists, etc), but don't share (list-all-packages) and don't share [fpm]bindings.  It may be a little strange.  Assuming package named "FOO" exists in the environment, (find-package (package-name (first (package-use-list (find-package "FOO"))))) could return NIL (if the first package used by "FOO" is not in the current
2019-12-09T18:59:59Z pjb: environment). Since (first (package-use-list (find-package "FOO"))) is not deleted, how do we justify that?
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2019-12-09T19:00:58Z pjb: Similarly, it may be strange to have symbols interned/exported while not belonging to the current "API", with no [fpm]binding.
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2019-12-09T19:03:27Z pjb: On the other hand, anything that is shared between environment, is part of the communication system between environments.  Since packages and symbols are values, there's not reason to exclude them from being shared.  Bindings are not first class objects, so they can be excluded from the communication system/sharing between environments.
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2019-12-09T19:04:19Z pjb: But I would say that it would be good practice to avoid sharing packages and symbols between environments (when they have different bindings).
2019-12-09T19:04:56Z pjb: It would be better to make new packages, with new symbols for each environment.
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2019-12-09T19:24:09Z beach: pjb: It is no stranger than the relation between FIND-CLASS and CLASS-NAME.
2019-12-09T19:25:01Z beach: I have not figured out best practice yet.  I am not smart enough to try to figure that stuff out in advance.  I need to wait until  have an existing system to try out.
2019-12-09T19:25:21Z beach: Anyway, I'm off to spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
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2019-12-09T20:15:51Z lottaquestions: Hi all, I have a question: I am stepping through some code in which the :after function of mkinstance is run of a class. However I noticed, that the actual variable names in the :after function are not available in SLDB. Instead I see variables with the name root defaulting-temp
2019-12-09T20:16:18Z lottaquestions: https://pastebin.com/jWEVEFfR
2019-12-09T20:16:30Z lottaquestions: Just wondering what exactly is going  on under the hood
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2019-12-09T20:18:42Z lottaquestions: A follow up question would be, how would I run expressions of interest in the :after function in SLDB, since evaluate (e) does not have access to the variable names as they appear in the original code
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2019-12-09T20:37:59Z phoe: lottaquestions: sounds like #sbcl question since it might be implementation specific
2019-12-09T20:38:12Z phoe: the base question would be to try and attempt the same thing with SBCL's native stepper
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2019-12-09T21:56:55Z loskutak: Hi, I would like to do something like: (setf (if t (first '(1 2 3)) (second '(1 2 3))) 4)
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2019-12-09T21:57:54Z loskutak: but that doesn't work - undefined function (setf if)... How to do this kind of stuff?
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2019-12-09T21:58:02Z pjb: then define it.
2019-12-09T21:58:18Z pjb: clhs define-setf-expander
2019-12-09T21:58:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_3.htm
2019-12-09T21:59:04Z pjb: loskutak: note: clisp has one already.
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2019-12-09T21:59:52Z pjb: loskutak: note in anycase, note that your code is not conforming: you cannot mutate a literal!
2019-12-09T22:00:02Z loskutak: I am just a beginner and this seems to be too difficult. It also seems to me that there has to be some good reason this isn't implemented already
2019-12-09T22:00:35Z pjb: loskutak: You want something like: (let ((mutable-list (list 1 2  3))) (setf (if (zerop (random 2)) (first mutable-list) (second mutable-list)) 4) mutable-list)
2019-12-09T22:00:55Z pjb: loskutak: you will always stay a beginner if you don't learn to use those more sophisticated operators.
2019-12-09T22:01:00Z loskutak: pjb: yeah, ok - wrong example...
2019-12-09T22:01:21Z pjb: loskutak: or if you don't learn to cheat and to go fetch the code you need where it already exists.
2019-12-09T22:01:30Z pjb: loskutak: this is why I told you it was already in clisp!!!
2019-12-09T22:01:37Z pjb: loskutak: go fetch the sources of clisp and find it.
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2019-12-09T22:05:09Z loskutak: pjb: ok, will try that. Thanks.
2019-12-09T22:10:18Z Bike: you can't define a setf expander for if, it's a standard symbol.
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2019-12-09T22:10:55Z Bike: as for why it doesn't exist, computing the temporaries and stuff seems like it would be pretty strange. i'll check what clisp does.
2019-12-09T22:11:37Z loskutak: pjb: think I have found it (define-setf-expander IF ...) is that the thing?
2019-12-09T22:11:48Z Bike: that would be it, yes.
2019-12-09T22:13:23Z Bike: that sublis-in-form seems sketchy.
2019-12-09T22:13:29Z pjb: Bike: well, really clhs 11.1.2.1.2 forbids it because the implementation may have one defined and rely on it.  But the only implementation that defines a setf-expander for cl:if is clisp, so it should just work to define one on cl:if in other implementations.
2019-12-09T22:16:32Z loskutak: pjb: 'you will always stay a beginner if you don't learn to use those more sophisticated operators.' - looking at that code I think you do not understand what I mean by beginner...
2019-12-09T22:18:06Z pjb: loskutak: you can put it for next year, and in the mean time, use (if test (setf (first mutable-list) new-value) (setf (second mutable-list) new-value))
2019-12-09T22:18:31Z pjb: loskutak: or you can use (setf (elt mutable-list (if test 0 1)) new-value)
2019-12-09T22:21:06Z nirved: there are three ways to make a new setf: define-setf-expander, defsetf, (defun (setf ...) ...)
2019-12-09T22:23:42Z loskutak: I was trying to write a macro that would return either first or second element of list based on some condition and wanted this to be setf-able so that rules out the (if test ...) variant. I think I will give up - this seems to be too much exotic
2019-12-09T22:23:52Z loskutak: thanks for help anyway!
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2019-12-09T22:26:32Z pjb: loskutak: as a beginner you should try to write it as a function instead.
2019-12-09T22:27:15Z pjb: loskutak: then you can easily write (defun (setf foo) (new-value …) …) for a function (defun foo (…) …)
2019-12-09T22:28:42Z pjb: (defun (setf first-or-second) (new-value list) (assert (consp (cdr list))) (if (zerop (random 2)) (setf (first list) new-value) (setf (second list) new-value)))
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2019-12-09T22:32:59Z loskutak: pjb: oh now I see. I should be able to do this. Thanks!
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2019-12-10T02:18:45Z jason_m: Is there a way to see the expanded result of a symbol-macrolet form?  For example, if I evaluate: (macroexpand '(with-slots (x y z) (obj) (setf z (+ x y)))), I see a symbol-macrolet form in the output (using sbcl).  Is there a way to further expand the result?  I am interested because I want to write some macros of my own that make use of symbol-macrolet.
2019-12-10T02:20:27Z pjb: jason_m: macroexpand doesn't work recursively.
2019-12-10T02:20:38Z pjb: You can use slime-macroexpand-all
2019-12-10T02:20:43Z pjb: or do it manually.
2019-12-10T02:21:45Z jason_m: pjb: I thought that was the difference between macroexpand and macroexpand-1?
2019-12-10T02:22:01Z pjb: Nope.  Both only work on the toplevel operator.
2019-12-10T02:22:13Z pjb: -1 once, macroexpand until it cannot expand.
2019-12-10T02:22:49Z pjb: Then you need to code walk. If the result of macroexpand is a special-operator, apply the rules. If it's a function, applies on the arguments recursively.
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2019-12-10T02:23:44Z pjb: Anyways, symbol-macrolet is a special operator, so it probably won't macroexpand.
2019-12-10T02:23:59Z pjb: (it could be implemented as a macro, but probably not).
2019-12-10T02:24:38Z jason_m: pjb: Yeah, I tried plugging the symbol-macrolet form directly into macroexpand, and it did not further expand so you are probably right about the implementation.
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2019-12-10T02:28:27Z jason_m: I better understand the difference between macroexpand and macroexpand-1 now.  I was misinterpreting "repeatedly" to mean "recursively".
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2019-12-10T02:34:09Z pjb: jason_m: I like to implement those operators myself to understand them.  It's not hard in general.  Remember, lisp was invented on a 32KW computer system…
2019-12-10T02:38:04Z edgar-rft: ... and 32 kiloWatt is a lot of power :-)
2019-12-10T02:42:43Z pjb: Kilo Words.
2019-12-10T02:43:00Z pjb: kilo watt is kW, not KW.
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2019-12-10T02:49:47Z edgar-rft: pjb: k = kilo, K = Kelvin, KW are KelvinWords!
2019-12-10T02:51:08Z pjb: edgar-rft: units cannot be used as prefix, so there's no ambiguity.
2019-12-10T02:57:08Z edgar-rft: William Thomson Kelvin was a human speaking words.
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2019-12-10T03:21:02Z oni-on-ion: PoundCake
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2019-12-10T03:35:19Z moon-child: oni-on-ion: is that an order?
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2019-12-10T03:36:54Z oni-on-ion: =P
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2019-12-10T03:37:17Z oni-on-ion: KiloByte. being silly at pjb
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2019-12-10T03:58:40Z useful_illusion: h=Hello all :)
2019-12-10T03:58:57Z equwal: Good morning beach!
2019-12-10T04:00:35Z useful_illusion: Good morning (assume u r in UK/Europe.. or,,)
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2019-12-10T04:05:07Z equwal: No, I just always use Good morning to avoid confusion.
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2019-12-10T04:25:48Z useful_illusion: Ahh, probably a good idea! Thanks.
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2019-12-10T07:20:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-10T07:24:22Z edgar-rft: Mom said "follow your dreams" so I went back to bed.
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2019-12-10T08:24:52Z boeg: Is there a way to tell sbcl' repl to use a specific package as it's main "namespace". Like say I have a package at some.package with a function hello which I can call with `some.package::hello`, is it possible to say "right now i'm always at some.package" so I can just call the function with `hello` ?
2019-12-10T08:25:19Z Xach: boeg: (in-paaakge <the package name>)
2019-12-10T08:25:27Z Xach: err, package, not paaakge
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2019-12-10T08:26:06Z boeg: Xach: Didn't realize I could do that in the REPL. Thanks!
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2019-12-10T08:26:19Z boeg: oh, is it possible to reset it other than restart sbcl?
2019-12-10T08:26:29Z Xach: boeg: "reset" in what sense?
2019-12-10T08:26:47Z Xach: you can do (in-package :cl-user) to change back to the default package.
2019-12-10T08:26:54Z Xach: the default initial package for sbcl, that is
2019-12-10T08:26:54Z boeg: like, go back to whatever is sbcl starting "in-package state" which I don't know what is
2019-12-10T08:26:59Z boeg: ah, yes
2019-12-10T08:27:07Z boeg: exactly what I meant, of course
2019-12-10T08:27:08Z boeg: thank you
2019-12-10T08:27:53Z Xach: boeg: in slime, there is a shortcut with completion: ,change-package
2019-12-10T08:28:11Z Xach: or ,c-p SPACE
2019-12-10T08:30:21Z boeg: Xach: thanks! I'm using sly actually because I read somewhere it was "better", but I'm getting the feeling from this channel that most are using slime, and for example in this case, it's called ,set-package instead of ,change-package as far as I can see, so its not the first time I experience that, well, would be easier to get help if I were using slime :)
2019-12-10T08:30:38Z boeg: Maybe I should just revert to slime
2019-12-10T08:31:24Z Xach: boeg: i think sly may be better but i found it hard to switch
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2019-12-10T08:32:28Z boeg: Right, I just started with sly when I started with common lisp so I didn't have to switch
2019-12-10T08:33:01Z boeg: arguably not long ago, so its limited what I would have to learn/unlearn either way
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2019-12-10T08:40:14Z Xach: i worry about a slime local maximum
2019-12-10T08:40:52Z ck_: Xach: maximum with respect to what?
2019-12-10T08:40:56Z ck_: usability in general?
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2019-12-10T09:25:59Z Xach: ck_: yes, vs sly
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2019-12-10T09:33:34Z phoe: Xach: also ,in-package
2019-12-10T09:33:41Z phoe: I use that as ,ipa<RET>
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2019-12-10T09:35:26Z Xach: cool
2019-12-10T09:35:29Z Xach: did not know about it
2019-12-10T09:36:55Z jdz: I just do ,in<RET>.
2019-12-10T09:41:57Z jackdaniel: were there attempts to implement The Nimble Type Inferencer in CL implementations? i.e is there some followup material except the paper by HBaker?
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2019-12-10T09:43:51Z jackdaniel: I've only found a brief ramrk in https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2013/04/13/starting-to-hack-on-sbcl/ that "a scheme (...) doesn't quite work for Common Lisp (it's very hard to propagate information backward while respecting the final standard)."
2019-12-10T09:47:50Z jonatack: jdz: ",in<RET>" nice, TIL
2019-12-10T09:48:47Z beach: jackdaniel: Yes, I don't think the technique works for standard Common Lisp.
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2019-12-10T09:52:38Z jackdaniel: beach: thanks. I thought so basked on the the I've quoted. I'm curious of "why", so I've asked if there is a followup material which explains that. Is there some state of the art technique for CL, or it is "whatever CMUCL/SBCL does"?
2019-12-10T09:52:43Z jackdaniel: based*
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2019-12-10T09:59:09Z beach: Let me see if I can come up with an example...
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2019-12-10T10:00:15Z nirved: Xach: I used to do ,+p and when finished ,-p
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2019-12-10T10:00:38Z ck_: C-c M-p is another way to switch packages -- slime-repl-set-package
2019-12-10T10:01:38Z beach: jackdaniel: How about this: (progn (+ x 1) (f x) (assert (typep x 'fixnum)))
2019-12-10T10:02:01Z Xach: nirved: didn't know about that either
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2019-12-10T10:02:06Z nirved: now just typing (in-package ...) is fast enough, and feels smoother
2019-12-10T10:03:06Z jackdaniel: beach: do you mean that it is not feasible, because it lifts declarations and type checks at the beginning, hence (f x) may never get executed because type is violated, while in comforming program error would be signalled only after (f x) is invoked?
2019-12-10T10:03:29Z beach: Yes, something like that.
2019-12-10T10:03:49Z jackdaniel: alright, thank you
2019-12-10T10:04:06Z jackdaniel: and regarding the second part of the question: is there a state of the art technique which may be used for common lisp?
2019-12-10T10:05:44Z beach: jackdaniel: I don't know.  But in Cleavir the plan is to do type inference in HIR using the ordinary control flow.
2019-12-10T10:06:12Z jackdaniel: understood, thanks again
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2019-12-10T10:13:14Z Xach: jackdaniel: shoutout from stylewarning in his talk at sbcl20 - "[jackdaniel] does a wonderful job"
2019-12-10T10:15:30Z ck_: hear, hear :)
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2019-12-10T10:18:55Z jackdaniel: wow, thanks :)
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2019-12-10T12:03:36Z flip214: question about mcclim: when using clouseau, heisig sees a small arrow (eg. for integers) and can open a menue with it (to increment numbers, for example).
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2019-12-10T12:04:14Z flip214: I'm using QL mcclim 20191130, which also has these commands - but I don't see the arrow!
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2019-12-10T12:05:06Z flip214: heisig suspects a window manager issue; I'm running lxqt with lightdm, I wouldn't expect that to be inferior!?!
2019-12-10T12:05:19Z flip214: Is there some configuration item that's wrong, is it a WM problem, ...?
2019-12-10T12:11:21Z scymtym: flip214: can you explain the "small arrow" part more? things that offer a context menu ("presentations" in CLIM terminology) should be highlighted with a thin black border (clouseau does additional highlighting for circularity indication, but that should be inconsequential here). right-clicking such a highlighted thing should open the context menu
2019-12-10T12:11:21Z scymtym: does the context menu maybe open on a different screen or at an odd position? clx/mcclim sometimes get that part wrong
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2019-12-10T12:38:27Z flip214: scymtym: I get a menu via right-click - but it only contains "Toggle inspect N", and not all the other goodies
2019-12-10T12:38:44Z flip214: and as for circularity detection:  (clouseau:inspector `(1 #1=(2 3) #2=(#1# #2# #1#) 4))
2019-12-10T12:38:56Z flip214: gives me a "control stack exhausted" ;(
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2019-12-10T12:53:58Z phoe: flip214: evaluating `(1 #1=(2 3) #2=(#1# #2# #1#) 4) in SBCL blows the stack as well
2019-12-10T12:55:39Z phoe: same for a simpler case of `#1=(#1#)
2019-12-10T12:57:40Z phoe: looks like the SBCL quasiquote does not enjoy circularities
2019-12-10T13:00:00Z phoe: you likely want '(1 #1=(2 3) #2=(#1# #2# #1#) 4) instead
2019-12-10T13:04:09Z phoe: because with the backquote your query isn't even reaching clouseau:inspector
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2019-12-10T13:08:37Z flip214: phoe: yeah, thanks..
2019-12-10T13:08:56Z flip214: clouseau doesn't see the duplicated use in (clouseau:inspector `(1 #1=(2 3) #1#))
2019-12-10T13:08:58Z flip214: either
2019-12-10T13:11:24Z flip214: but when I click on the integer 2, both of the two visible ones are opened and closed at the same time, so some identity is preserved
2019-12-10T13:11:35Z phoe: flip214: flip214:
2019-12-10T13:11:54Z phoe: (let ((x `(1 #1=(2 3) #1#))) (eq (second x) (third x))) ;=> NIL
2019-12-10T13:11:58Z phoe: this isn't a clouseau issue
2019-12-10T13:12:02Z phoe: this is on SBCL
2019-12-10T13:12:43Z phoe: you operate under the assumption that backquote preserves ## and #= identity, and it seems that it isn't true
2019-12-10T13:12:47Z flip214: but the identical CONS cells are not synchronized?!
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2019-12-10T13:13:35Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
2019-12-10T13:13:40Z jackdaniel: sbcl's backquote is somewhat magical, you can't expect it to behave like an operator
2019-12-10T13:14:04Z flip214: phoe: yeah, when I replace ` by ' behavious is (very) slightly different
2019-12-10T13:14:17Z flip214: but still the integers are synchronized
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2019-12-10T13:14:41Z jackdaniel: cons are allocated on a heap, fixnums may be immediate objects
2019-12-10T13:14:43Z flip214: the basic question is "why does heisig see more options in his menu than me?"
2019-12-10T13:14:56Z jackdaniel: different sbcl version?
2019-12-10T13:15:00Z flip214: jackdaniel: yeah, right. even more reason to _not_ have them synchronized
2019-12-10T13:15:58Z jackdaniel: I remember it was qutie easy to hit infinite recursion when you were using backquote and #1= on sbcl
2019-12-10T13:16:26Z jackdaniel: after some investigation I've came to resolution, that it is conforming however surprising
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2019-12-10T13:18:05Z phoe: in particular, `(#1=(1 2) #1#) can be interpreted the same way that `((1 2) (1 2)) is
2019-12-10T13:18:37Z phoe: which means, (append (list (list 1 2)) (list (list 1 2)))
2019-12-10T13:18:45Z phoe: which means that no identity has a chance to be preserved
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2019-12-10T13:18:55Z phoe: which in turn implies that ## and #= do not work inside backquotes
2019-12-10T13:18:56Z flip214: is it just me, or are the names on https://www.cliki.net/CPS really badly broken not-any-longer UTF-8?
2019-12-10T13:19:08Z phoe: flip214: confirmed, broken for me too
2019-12-10T13:20:08Z flip214: phoe: thanks
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2019-12-10T13:37:50Z scymtym: flip214: the circularity example doesn't get to clouseau, it fails in the quasiquote expander
2019-12-10T13:38:25Z scymtym: flip214: is it possible that you are using an old version of clouseau? the entry-point should be CLOUSEAU:INSPECT (not CLOUSEAU:INSPECTOR). that would also explain the highlighting differences and the missing context menu
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2019-12-10T13:42:06Z Xach: pfdietz: you suggested something a while ago that i have not been able to fully understand (and also I can't find the suggestion)
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2019-12-10T13:42:29Z Xach: pfdietz: it relates to the problem of suppressing output for quicklisp-provided systems and showing all output for other systems
2019-12-10T13:43:45Z jmercouris: I just wanted to point out in the topic that there is a much newer relese of SBCL available, what's the reasoning behind having the version numbers and implementations in the topic anyway?
2019-12-10T13:44:41Z Xach: jmercouris: it is a relic of an older time when more people got their news through IRC
2019-12-10T13:44:50Z Xach: I think it would be fine to leave them out
2019-12-10T13:45:21Z jmercouris: well, perhaps time to update it then!
2019-12-10T13:45:23Z jmercouris: :-)
2019-12-10T13:45:49Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2019-12-10T13:47:20Z Xach changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>
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2019-12-10T13:57:20Z pfdietz: Xach: I'm trying to remember if I said anything related to that.
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2019-12-10T13:59:06Z Xach: pfdietz: you said something about pushing with-quiet-compilation farther into the plan rather than leaving it at the top
2019-12-10T13:59:12Z Xach: pfdietz: (if i remember correctly)
2019-12-10T14:00:00Z pfdietz: Hmm.  This may have been in relation to getting warnings printed, even if most else noise was suppressed?
2019-12-10T14:00:21Z Xach: pfdietz: yes
2019-12-10T14:00:24Z pfdietz: Ok.
2019-12-10T14:00:36Z pfdietz: I remember the problem, at least. :)
2019-12-10T14:00:38Z Xach: pfdietz: but i have had problems handling recursive calls
2019-12-10T14:01:11Z Xach: that is, a warning-not-suppressed system may depend on a warning-suppressed system and asdf makes a recursive call out of my control
2019-12-10T14:01:16Z Xach: or vice versa
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2019-12-10T14:03:54Z jackdaniel: Xach: albeit ugly maybe you could write around methods for perform specialized on compile-op in asdf?
2019-12-10T14:04:17Z Xach: jackdaniel: is there a chance of conflict though? or do i make a subclass operation?
2019-12-10T14:04:27Z Xach: like my-compile-op or something?
2019-12-10T14:04:36Z jackdaniel: there is a chance of conflict
2019-12-10T14:04:42Z pfdietz: Perhaps there could be some approach that wraps warnings so they aren't suppressed, and maybe not use the stnadard muffle-warning function.
2019-12-10T14:04:51Z jackdaniel: and subclassing operation won't work, because dependencies will  be loaded with i.e comile-op
2019-12-10T14:04:56Z jackdaniel: so you are back to square one then
2019-12-10T14:05:11Z Xach: pfdietz: warnings are a special case of suppression. i'd also like to show output with one, and not show for the other.
2019-12-10T14:05:20Z Xach: so solving warnings is good but not the whole picture
2019-12-10T14:05:47Z pfdietz: For output, bind the stream(s) to which the output will go and wrap that up too?
2019-12-10T14:06:13Z Xach: pfdietz: how to turn it on or off in the midst of recursive loading?
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2019-12-10T14:08:46Z pfdietz: Toy example:  suppose we have an output stream *s*.  with-quiet-s would bind *s* to a nullary broadcast stream (say).
2019-12-10T14:09:05Z Xach: oukkei
2019-12-10T14:09:06Z pfdietz: But it could also bind *unsuppressed-s* to the previous value of *s*.
2019-12-10T14:09:17Z Xach: "it" could do that when?
2019-12-10T14:09:21Z pfdietz: with-noisy-s would then bind *s* to *unsuppressed-s*.
2019-12-10T14:09:30Z pfdietz: In the expanded macro form.
2019-12-10T14:10:02Z pfdietz: (with-quiet-s . body) ==>   (let ((*s* (make-broadcast-stream))) . body)
2019-12-10T14:10:24Z Xach: that is not the level i mean. i mean asdf is executing a plan and i don't see points of intercession to change behavior.
2019-12-10T14:10:34Z pfdietz: Or, rather, (let* ((*unsuppressed-s* *s*) (*s (make-broadcast-stream))) . body)
2019-12-10T14:10:41Z pfdietz: Ok
2019-12-10T14:11:11Z pfdietz: Well, I'm not familiar with asdf plumping.  Presumably this would go in an around method somewhere?
2019-12-10T14:11:17Z Xach: the leaves of the plan need different behavior depending on some property of the system to load
2019-12-10T14:11:34Z Xach: pfdietz: possibly, though i do not see a way forward with that idea
2019-12-10T14:12:39Z phoe: I just got a most crazy idea
2019-12-10T14:12:52Z Xach: i hope it solves all my problems and is nice and beautiful
2019-12-10T14:13:24Z phoe: replace *standard-output* with a Gray stream that, on each print, inspects the stack to figure out which system is currently being loaded - if it's not a system belonging to a list, then print nothing, otherwise, print the character to the wrapped *standard-output*
2019-12-10T14:13:36Z phoe: if anyone actually implements this, they should be shot
2019-12-10T14:13:46Z jackdaniel: systems may be loaded from local directories superseeding quicklisp ones
2019-12-10T14:13:59Z Xach: well, it may be crazy, but it is also ugly and not nice and does not solve my problem
2019-12-10T14:14:04Z Xach: aside from that it is fantastic!!
2019-12-10T14:14:11Z phoe sigh
2019-12-10T14:14:17Z jackdaniel: I have an idea, let me investigate for a minute
2019-12-10T14:14:19Z phoe goes back to performing dayjob things
2019-12-10T14:14:22Z phoe: jackdaniel: good luck
2019-12-10T14:14:28Z Xach: phoe: thank you anyway :)
2019-12-10T14:14:38Z pfdietz: It fills a much-needed gap in solution space!
2019-12-10T14:14:49Z jackdaniel: it will involve using internal asdf interface though (not exported)
2019-12-10T14:15:00Z Xach: jackdaniel: i do that now (lightly)
2019-12-10T14:15:10Z Xach: i might do it if it is not too deep
2019-12-10T14:16:24Z jackdaniel: Xach: specialize call-with-around-compile-hook (around method), which takes a) component, b) thunk; based on component pathname you may judge whether it is in ql directory or not and bind the appropriate dynamic variable
2019-12-10T14:17:01Z jackdaniel: you may control it per system, but also per module or even a file
2019-12-10T14:17:18Z jackdaniel: (and of course invoke call-next-method)
2019-12-10T14:17:29Z Xach: jackdaniel: hmm, and the idea is that because it is not external in asdf it is ok to add an :around?
2019-12-10T14:17:59Z jackdaniel: asdf does not add around, so there will be no conflict, unless someone is as rude as you and defines around themself! ;)
2019-12-10T14:18:05Z jackdaniel: (for internal interface)
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2019-12-10T14:18:14Z jackdaniel: or if asdf changes this interface without notification
2019-12-10T14:18:28Z jackdaniel: not something unseen of
2019-12-10T14:18:33Z Xach: right
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2019-12-10T14:19:02Z jackdaniel: imo hooks should be implemented by means of registering and removing hooks
2019-12-10T14:19:14Z jackdaniel: so they are not limited with: one hook per class
2019-12-10T14:19:16Z jackdaniel: but whatever
2019-12-10T14:19:59Z Xach: so here is an idea i had that does not work
2019-12-10T14:20:24Z Xach: in my system search function, i can return a system object rather than a pathname
2019-12-10T14:20:54Z Xach: but i don't know how to make a system object with enough detail to replicate what should happen to the original system (which itself might be a system subclass, i think)
2019-12-10T14:21:11Z Xach: i don't think i could simply change-class without danger
2019-12-10T14:21:30Z jackdaniel: use a stealth mixin and you are golden
2019-12-10T14:22:01Z Xach: jackdaniel: how?
2019-12-10T14:23:08Z jackdaniel: (stealth-mixin:define-stealth-mixin my-class () asdf:system ()) ; and now you can add around method for your own class
2019-12-10T14:23:26Z jackdaniel: which will check where the system is located
2019-12-10T14:23:44Z jackdaniel: (your idea made me think of it)
2019-12-10T14:24:00Z jackdaniel: stealth-mixins are basically adding your class as a superclass for asdf:system in this example
2019-12-10T14:24:01Z Xach: that looks nice in the library but i cannot rely on any external code :(
2019-12-10T14:24:01Z Xach: no closer-mop etc
2019-12-10T14:24:14Z Xach: maybe that's not so bad
2019-12-10T14:27:15Z jackdaniel: another idea (not very efficient one though), you could define perform around method specialized on compile-op and (eql your-ql-system)
2019-12-10T14:29:47Z pfdietz: Ah, I see the blog entry: https://lispblog.xach.com/post/104872127228/a-verbosity-conundrum
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2019-12-10T14:47:08Z Xach:   
2019-12-10T14:47:14Z Xach: pfdietz: some more context and simplification on twitter
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2019-12-10T14:56:29Z Xach: pfdietz: https://twitter.com/xach/status/1204038946503741440 specifically
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2019-12-10T15:05:13Z flip214: scymtym: yeah, in the meantime I found that an old git checkout interfered... but still I don't have the same output as heisig
2019-12-10T15:06:30Z flip214: oh, I need to click on the CONS to be able to increment CAR!?!?!
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2019-12-10T16:25:03Z scymtym: flip214: yes, since numbers are immutable, you can only modify the "place" containing the number
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2019-12-10T20:04:51Z copec: Has anyone seen this error before? https://unaen.org/pb/4a5
2019-12-10T20:05:04Z copec: It is on both ccl and sbcl on macos.
2019-12-10T20:06:07Z copec: I can't find any of the includes in libffi-types__grovel.c, so FFI_SYSV isn't defined
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2019-12-10T20:10:33Z Bike: You can't find or it can't find?
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2019-12-10T20:21:11Z Cerbb: i am trying to install clisp. I am on debian stretch and the package is not in the repositories, so I am trying to build it from the source. I get this error when I run make
2019-12-10T20:21:12Z Cerbb:  
2019-12-10T20:21:12Z Cerbb: : #error oint_addr_mask does not cover CODE_ADDRESS_RANGE !!
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2019-12-10T20:21:57Z jackdaniel: Cerbb: is there a particular reason you are building clisp (and not i.e sbcl which is far more popular among common lisp developers)
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2019-12-10T20:22:38Z jackdaniel: both implement the same standard (it is like i.e gcc and clang)
2019-12-10T20:22:49Z Cerbb: i am trying to install a software called bergman http://servus.math.su.se/bergman/ and it says it needs clisp
2019-12-10T20:22:50Z p_l: ugh, and the area that error'd used to be (if it isn't still) the most borked part of CLISP
2019-12-10T20:23:13Z Cerbb: when i try to make bergman indeed it says that it does not find clisp
2019-12-10T20:23:43Z p_l: starting an encounter with a programming language with "let
2019-12-10T20:24:03Z p_l: *"let's port the build system to another implementation" is not necessarily a good idea, indeed :)
2019-12-10T20:24:16Z p_l: though I thought that clisp was in debian repo
2019-12-10T20:24:44Z Cerbb: as far as i understand is in debian buster, but not in debian stretch
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2019-12-10T20:25:15Z jackdaniel: hm, I don't know what the problem is. I'd write to clisp mailing list to ask if I were you
2019-12-10T20:26:13Z Cerbb: can you direct me to the mailing list?
2019-12-10T20:26:20Z jackdaniel: hang on
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2019-12-10T20:27:18Z jackdaniel: https://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/mailman/
2019-12-10T20:27:21Z jackdaniel: Cerbb: ^
2019-12-10T20:27:45Z Cerbb: i mean...in principle i could try to make bergman understand that it can use something else instead of clisp, right?
2019-12-10T20:27:48Z Cerbb: thanks
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2019-12-10T20:27:51Z jackdaniel: I'd still try to build it with another CL, bergman site mentions only, that it was tested on clisp, not that it depends on clisp internal features
2019-12-10T20:28:11Z jackdaniel: but who knows
2019-12-10T20:28:24Z jackdaniel: also, if you are looking for an algebra system, there is also maxima
2019-12-10T20:29:04Z Cerbb: actually, i usually use macaulay2. but i need to use a package on macaulay2 that calls bergman
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2019-12-10T20:30:34Z Bike: i can't even access the bergman website. blah.
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2019-12-10T20:30:55Z pnp: http://servus.math.su.se/bergman/
2019-12-10T20:31:30Z Bike: yes, it wasn't working
2019-12-10T20:31:51Z Bike: download page is a 404, too...
2019-12-10T20:32:13Z Bike: oh there we go.
2019-12-10T20:32:53Z jackdaniel: Bike: if that helps my browser got redirected to https
2019-12-10T20:33:02Z jackdaniel: wait, no, it didn't
2019-12-10T20:33:05Z jackdaniel: sorry for the noise
2019-12-10T20:33:49Z Cerbb: if you go to the download page on the left it actually sends you there
2019-12-10T20:34:04Z Cerbb: the download link in the middle of the page is broken
2019-12-10T20:34:17Z Bike: the readme says you can install it "with stand alone psl, with reduce, or with common lisp", so maybe those other two things won't involve clisp
2019-12-10T20:34:20Z Bike: never heard of them though
2019-12-10T20:34:43Z jackdaniel: Pssst, Lisp! ;-)
2019-12-10T20:35:16Z Bike: i think i don't want to know why math software is this dependent on the machine
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2019-12-10T20:36:42Z Cerbb: i am trying to install psl or reduce
2019-12-10T20:36:42Z copec: Bike, I can't find, so I presume it can't find
2019-12-10T20:37:58Z Bike: this code looks fuckin ancient. some of it's as old as i am
2019-12-10T20:38:09Z Bike: but i found at least one ext:getvar, so using another lisp is nontrivial
2019-12-10T20:39:58Z Bike: (defmacro DF (name arg &body forms) `(defmacro ,name (&rest ,(car arg)) `(let ((,',(car arg) (quote ,,(car arg)))) ,',@forms ) ) )
2019-12-10T20:42:53Z Bike: on the other hand it's the only ext: i see
2019-12-10T20:43:12Z Bike: but fixing bespoke 1996 code is a chore even if you are familiar with the language
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2019-12-10T20:43:57Z Cerbb: mmm...this sounds way beyond what i am able to do
2019-12-10T20:43:58Z Cerbb: xD
2019-12-10T20:43:58Z Bike: oh, and the readme ends "Good luck - you'll need it!"
2019-12-10T20:44:03Z Cerbb: yes
2019-12-10T20:44:19Z Cerbb: and the developer does not really answer emails
2019-12-10T20:44:32Z Bike: academia, mon
2019-12-10T20:45:11Z pnp: Cerbb: Good luck - you'll need it!
2019-12-10T20:45:15Z pnp: :-)
2019-12-10T20:45:20Z Cerbb: i guess i could upgrade to buster, get clisp from the repositories and try to see if it works that way
2019-12-10T20:45:43Z Bike: could maybe build clisp yourself... i don't know how stable that process is
2019-12-10T20:45:53Z Bike: keeping in mind the minimum version is from like 2006
2019-12-10T20:46:10Z jackdaniel: he tried (the first question prompting the discussion)
2019-12-10T20:46:15Z Cerbb: that is what i tried right before coming here...
2019-12-10T20:47:04Z Cerbb: i found a discussion that on my error suggests to configure with an option which should take care of it...but that solution did not work for me
2019-12-10T20:47:11Z pnp: yes but there are a lot of ways to calculate the things you need without that package
2019-12-10T20:48:05Z p_l: Cerbb: can you run docker there? https://hub.docker.com/r/nacyot/commonlisp-clisp/ this might of a help if it's not a problem
2019-12-10T20:48:06Z Bike: oh, sorry.
2019-12-10T20:48:17Z copec: It is in homebrew for linux, I'm seeing if it will build on my box
2019-12-10T20:49:17Z Cerbb: p_l: you mean installing that instead of clisp and see if that works?
2019-12-10T20:50:14Z p_l: Cerbb: on the odd chance that you might have had Docker available, you could use that image
2019-12-10T20:50:29Z p_l: I haven't really touched debian stretch so I don't really know how annoying it would be to install it
2019-12-10T20:51:05Z Cerbb: i guess i can install docker
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2019-12-10T21:00:52Z lisbeths: is the mickleson language based on common
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2019-12-10T21:09:11Z equwal: CLtL2 says (cons - -) should be ((cons - -) cons - -), but I can only get - to be NIL.
2019-12-10T21:09:18Z equwal: (sbcl)
2019-12-10T21:09:49Z equwal: - is supposed to be "the form that is currently being evaluated"
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2019-12-10T21:10:50Z jackdaniel: I don't understand what you are asking / stating :(
2019-12-10T21:11:06Z equwal: Why is - always nil?
2019-12-10T21:11:17Z Bike: you mean the variable that's a minus sign, right?
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2019-12-10T21:11:20Z equwal: yes
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2019-12-10T21:11:43Z jackdaniel: did you type (cons - -) in the repl?
2019-12-10T21:11:49Z Bike: (cons - -) gets me ((CONS - -) CONS - -) as i'd expect. where are you using it?
2019-12-10T21:12:00Z equwal: I'm using it in the sly repl.
2019-12-10T21:12:03Z Bike: it won't work in the middle of a function or anything
2019-12-10T21:12:08Z Bike: no idea what sly does
2019-12-10T21:12:30Z jackdaniel: equwal: try directly in the terminal
2019-12-10T21:12:32Z equwal: Well, turns out it is a problem with sly.
2019-12-10T21:12:36Z Bike: do * ** *** + ++ +++ work?
2019-12-10T21:12:40Z jackdaniel: if sly differs in its repl then it is sly's bug
2019-12-10T21:12:52Z jackdaniel: slime works correctly btw
2019-12-10T21:12:57Z equwal: *, +, /, etc work
2019-12-10T21:13:04Z Bike: well, maybe they missed one.
2019-12-10T21:13:19Z Cerbb: p_l: i installed docker but apparently the option -t of docker pull is not a thing
2019-12-10T21:13:32Z p_l: ahh, -t is not for pull
2019-12-10T21:13:35Z Cerbb: so docker pull -t nacyot/commonlisp-clisp:apt does not do anything
2019-12-10T21:13:39Z p_l: it's for run
2019-12-10T21:13:48Z Bike: https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/blob/39aef9e1963ab2a41a94db965d55ada062ab6f9a/slynk/slynk.lisp#L1501-L1513 ah, yep
2019-12-10T21:14:11Z Bike: er
2019-12-10T21:14:14Z Bike: no it's there. hm
2019-12-10T21:14:19Z p_l:  docker run --rm -i -t -v $(pwd):/source nacyot/commonlisp-clisp:apt clisp
2019-12-10T21:14:24Z p_l: and you can also do
2019-12-10T21:14:29Z p_l:  docker run --rm -i -t -v $(pwd):/source nacyot/commonlisp-clisp:apt /bin/bash
2019-12-10T21:14:30Z Cerbb: also...if i do git clone with that line, it seems the git repo does not exist
2019-12-10T21:14:58Z p_l: and get a small ubuntu image where you can also run `apt-get update; apt-get install build-essential` and then compile
2019-12-10T21:15:08Z p_l: Cerbb: what git repo?
2019-12-10T21:15:18Z pjb: equwal: the sly REPL doesn't implement a CL REPL.
2019-12-10T21:15:27Z p_l: Cerbb: the command I gave you should result in automatic download from dockerhub
2019-12-10T21:15:33Z jackdaniel: Bike: but it is eval
2019-12-10T21:15:33Z pjb: equwal: note this works in slime REPL.
2019-12-10T21:15:38Z Cerbb: it is doing something
2019-12-10T21:15:39Z jackdaniel: lexical binding doesn't take that
2019-12-10T21:15:44Z Cerbb: let's see what happens
2019-12-10T21:15:47Z jackdaniel: lexical binding doesn't go there*
2019-12-10T21:15:49Z Bike: jackdaniel: - is a dynamic variable
2019-12-10T21:15:52Z Bike: uh, i think
2019-12-10T21:15:54Z Bike: clhs -
2019-12-10T21:15:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a__.htm
2019-12-10T21:16:13Z lisbeths: sorry gtg
2019-12-10T21:16:26Z Bike: oh wait
2019-12-10T21:16:28Z Bike: it's using let, lol
2019-12-10T21:16:37Z Bike: so it won't be bound during the evaluation in the next line
2019-12-10T21:16:59Z Cerbb: mmm...maybe it worked
2019-12-10T21:17:46Z pjb: Cerbb: you should reporr clisp build problems on the clisp mail lists.
2019-12-10T21:18:08Z Bike: so yeah, looks like a sly bug. easy to fix at least
2019-12-10T21:18:37Z equwal: https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/issues/288
2019-12-10T21:18:48Z Bike: if it's going through simple-repl, at least
2019-12-10T21:18:48Z equwal: CLtL2: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node181.html#SECTION002420000000000000000
2019-12-10T21:18:59Z Bike: cltl2 is not the controlling standard, just so you know
2019-12-10T21:19:04Z equwal: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v__.htm
2019-12-10T21:19:07Z Bike: not that it differs here
2019-12-10T21:19:19Z Bike: actually, emacs has this same code, so i guess simple-repl isn't used?
2019-12-10T21:19:22Z jackdaniel: exactly, so I'd just say that it doesn't conform to the standard (described in clhs)
2019-12-10T21:19:36Z equwal: CLtL2 has better explanation/examples on this.
2019-12-10T21:20:01Z jackdaniel: it may, but it is not what implementations adhere to
2019-12-10T21:20:28Z Cerbb: p_l: i ran your line...without sudo it gives a permission error...i tried with sudo and it runs, but i am not sure if it does what it downloads where it should
2019-12-10T21:20:30Z Bike: i have no idea what slime is actually running... what a mystery
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2019-12-10T21:21:42Z Cerbb: because then when i do the docker run as in https://hub.docker.com/r/nacyot/commonlisp-clisp/ to check if it worked, it still gives permission error and it only works with sudo
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2019-12-10T21:22:36Z Bike: oh, it's eval-region, probably
2019-12-10T21:22:39Z Bike: which binds - itself
2019-12-10T21:22:54Z Bike: then swank-repl repl-eval takes care of the slashes and such.
2019-12-10T21:23:17Z Bike: wonder what the simple-repl is then. it's apparently not inferior lisp
2019-12-10T21:24:10Z jackdaniel: Bike: for communication style nil
2019-12-10T21:24:26Z equwal: the function INTERACTIVE-EVAL in toplevel.lisp looks interesting.
2019-12-10T21:24:44Z equwal: It looks like it should be setting - to the form.
2019-12-10T21:25:27Z equwal: found the problem:
2019-12-10T21:25:27Z equwal:   (setf - form)
2019-12-10T21:25:58Z p_l: Cerbb: you probably forgot to add yourself to "docker" group or something like that
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2019-12-10T21:26:26Z Cerbb: i see
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2019-12-10T21:29:05Z pjb: equwal: you could run your own REPL in the sly REPL.  For example: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:repl)
2019-12-10T21:29:18Z pjb: equwal: then it would work.
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2019-12-10T21:31:02Z jackdaniel: not if you are interested in the selling point of slime/sly integration like inspection and/or presentations
2019-12-10T21:31:28Z equwal: pjb: I'm not going to drop sly because of this bug.
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2019-12-10T21:35:38Z Cerbb: i think i made it
2019-12-10T21:35:42Z pjb: equwal: When you run a function in sly, you don't drop sly!
2019-12-10T21:35:46Z Cerbb: thank you everyone for now
2019-12-10T21:35:51Z pjb: equwal: try to start up your brains.
2019-12-10T21:36:42Z equwal: thank you pjb, I will do so immediately.
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2019-12-10T21:37:02Z equwal: I think simple-repl is the issue, since it never binds - to anything.
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2019-12-10T22:04:38Z equwal: Submitted a pull request on sly, thanks for the help. https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/pull/289
2019-12-10T22:06:24Z Bike: are you sure that's actually the code that it's going through?
2019-12-10T22:06:44Z Bike: even if it is you could probably just use let*
2019-12-10T22:06:55Z equwal: Why would that be simpler?
2019-12-10T22:07:24Z Bike: i mean, just change the let that's there to a let*
2019-12-10T22:07:29Z Bike: instead of the backquoted form and stuff
2019-12-10T22:09:06Z equwal: yes, that is better.
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2019-12-10T22:22:14Z equwal: I'm sure that simple-repl is not being run, but I think it was still broken earlier
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2019-12-10T22:26:22Z equwal: probably slynk-mrepl.lisp
2019-12-10T22:27:47Z Bike: i think that's the contrib for running more than one repl at once
2019-12-10T22:28:04Z Bike: on my slime the contrib is just repl, and mrepl is separate, but sly doesn't seem to have a repl contrib
2019-12-10T22:28:34Z equwal: I ran it on a fresh install, and the fix in the pull req works out of the box.
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2019-12-10T22:28:47Z equwal: (I force pushed it in)
2019-12-10T22:29:31Z equwal: I just did one of these: grep -R "\\+\\+\\+"
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2019-12-10T22:34:57Z equwal: I think mrepl is the server protocol extension to nrepl.
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2019-12-10T23:29:52Z no-defun-allowed: With respect to the MOP, is the way slots are stored in an instance standardised?
2019-12-10T23:30:38Z no-defun-allowed: I think a few times in the book I read about a "storage vector" in instances, but I don't recall if that's just how their example works or if all MOP implementations work like that.
2019-12-10T23:33:00Z no-defun-allowed: Looks like I want standard-instance-access.
2019-12-10T23:34:08Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: I remember this being discussed some time ago
2019-12-10T23:34:23Z phoe: AFAIR all that is standardized is that each slot is indexed by an unsigned-byte
2019-12-10T23:34:33Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
2019-12-10T23:34:34Z phoe: so you can standard-instance-access with the slot index
2019-12-10T23:35:40Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe I am approaching this wrong, though. I have a metaclass which sets up instances in a way that I can access slots using either the normal CLOS machinery or the name used in the serialised format.
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2019-12-10T23:36:37Z no-defun-allowed: Currently to use the serialised name, we have a hash table of those names to slot names, and then take the slot-value from there, but I think having those two levels of indirection causes it to be much slower than just taking slot-value.
2019-12-10T23:37:04Z phoe: is the name used in the serialized format a string?
2019-12-10T23:37:14Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
2019-12-10T23:37:25Z phoe: that's likely going to be slow anyway
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2019-12-10T23:37:51Z phoe: turn these strings into symbols, make them extra readers/writers for the slots.
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2019-12-10T23:38:16Z phoe: if you want isolation, intern them in a separate clean package.
2019-12-10T23:38:18Z no-defun-allowed: (We also want to avoid interning anything, because the serialised objects are sent to us from the network.)
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2019-12-10T23:40:19Z phoe: ooh, untrusted input. Well.
2019-12-10T23:40:58Z phoe: I'd make an EQUAL hash table that binds strings to accessor functions. Don't think I can make this any faster.
2019-12-10T23:41:15Z phoe: Since each time we need to make a string comparison anyway.
2019-12-10T23:41:22Z no-defun-allowed: I did some micro-benchmarking and gethash-ing didn't seem too slow relative to the speed of the accessor.
2019-12-10T23:41:36Z phoe: Or slot names, that's equivalent.
2019-12-10T23:42:31Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, that's exactly what we do, but I'm worried using slot names is going to be a problem since the slot name would have to be looked up too.
2019-12-10T23:43:17Z phoe: you can use lambdas that call standard instance access instead
2019-12-10T23:43:33Z phoe: that's as fast as you can get since it's literally array lookup
2019-12-10T23:43:44Z no-defun-allowed: That's what I have in mind to try now.
2019-12-10T23:43:50Z phoe: beware that you bypass most of CLOS this way.
2019-12-10T23:44:14Z phoe: so no generic functions, no methods, no :around/:after/:before, no access protocols for you.
2019-12-10T23:44:32Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
2019-12-10T23:45:10Z phoe: are you using CLOS functionality anywhere else?
2019-12-10T23:45:17Z no-defun-allowed: Is the existence of a (setf standard-instance-access) guaranteed in the MOP? http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/all-no-methods.html does not mention it.
2019-12-10T23:45:28Z Bike: yes.
2019-12-10T23:45:45Z Bike: it's listed as a reader rather than an accessor there because of typos
2019-12-10T23:45:49Z no-defun-allowed: Probably would be.
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2019-12-10T23:49:46Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks Bike
2019-12-10T23:50:50Z no-defun-allowed: Is there another function like that to check if the slot is bound then?
2019-12-10T23:51:39Z Bike: nope.
2019-12-10T23:54:54Z no-defun-allowed: Yikes.
2019-12-10T23:57:29Z no-defun-allowed: I think I can only really use s-i-a with implementation-specific code to check if it's bound then.
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2019-12-10T23:58:24Z Bike: strictly speaking, you can't use s-i-a on an unbound slot. it's in the page.
2019-12-10T23:58:38Z phoe: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/standard-instance-access.html
2019-12-10T23:58:42Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed.
2019-12-10T23:58:44Z phoe: otherwise the results are undefined
2019-12-10T23:58:50Z Bike: probably if you do you'll just get an unbound marker of some kind, tho
2019-12-10T23:59:07Z phoe: so either keep all the slots bound or let the implementation invoke unicorns
2019-12-10T23:59:46Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL does return one of those markers, and it's typep to sb-kernel::random-class.
2019-12-11T00:00:10Z no-defun-allowed: So does Clozure, but I can't get that inspected.
2019-12-11T00:01:58Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, if I have the effective slot definition already, can I use that to get the slot's value?
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2019-12-11T00:02:44Z no-defun-allowed: That would be slot-value-using-class then.
2019-12-11T00:02:52Z Bike: indeed
2019-12-11T00:03:00Z Bike: and slot-boundp-using-class
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2019-12-11T00:03:27Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, that looks like the right level of unicornlessness.
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2019-12-11T00:04:50Z perfect_loser: hi
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2019-12-11T00:05:34Z phoe: hey
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2019-12-11T00:14:03Z no-defun-allowed: That works then. Thanks phoe and Bike
2019-12-11T00:14:52Z perfect_loser: How do you compare Lisp to Common Scheme ?
2019-12-11T00:15:02Z oni-on-ion: well er wait Common Scheme ?
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2019-12-11T00:16:14Z perfect_loser: LOL
2019-12-11T00:16:16Z perfect_loser: sorry
2019-12-11T00:16:18Z oni-on-ion: do you mean "Common Lisp vs Scheme"? that is a good search term
2019-12-11T00:16:21Z oni-on-ion: (i've done it)
2019-12-11T00:16:23Z perfect_loser: Scheme to COmmon Lisp
2019-12-11T00:16:24Z perfect_loser: yes
2019-12-11T00:16:27Z oni-on-ion: =)
2019-12-11T00:16:30Z oni-on-ion: took me a sec
2019-12-11T00:16:49Z perfect_loser: You should invent this language
2019-12-11T00:17:06Z perfect_loser: Common Scheme
2019-12-11T00:17:20Z oni-on-ion: hehe. scheme is fine -- with the R5RS R7RS etc and the SFRI's
2019-12-11T00:17:25Z oni-on-ion: (or SRFI's?)
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2019-12-11T02:01:35Z jason_m: Can I use symbol-macrolet to expand symbols like this: (with-foo (x y z) obj (+ x y z)) => (+ (foo obj x) (foo obj y) (foo obj z)) ?  I seem to be having trouble with recursion blowing up the stack.
2019-12-11T02:02:19Z Bike: well it'll recursively expand x
2019-12-11T02:02:45Z Bike: you could bind %x to the x variable, and then symbol macrolet x to (foo obj %x)
2019-12-11T02:02:51Z Bike: where %x is a gensym
2019-12-11T02:04:05Z jason_m: Yes, that was what i was going to try next. But thought I would ask first before going that direction.
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2019-12-11T02:04:43Z jason_m: My first thought was it would be similar to how one might implement with-slots, but of course that has the important difference that the symbols are quoted in the expanded forms, so it is not recursive.
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2019-12-11T02:09:41Z pjb: Of course.
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2019-12-11T02:10:48Z pjb: But you need a special macro to do that.
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2019-12-11T02:11:58Z pjb: (defclass c () (x y z))  (defmacro expand (form &environment env) `',(macroexpand form env))  (with-slots (x y z) (make-instance 'c) (expand x)) #| --> (slot-value #:g7852 'x) |#
2019-12-11T02:14:37Z pjb: (defmacro with-foo ((&rest slots) object &body body) `(symbol-macrolet ,(mapcar (lambda (slot) `(,slot (foo ,object ',slot))) slots) ,@body)) (with-foo (x y z) obj (expand x)) #| --> (foo obj 'x) |#
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2019-12-11T02:19:11Z moon-child: how do I asdf?  I made a 'fed.asd' which says (defsystem :fed ...), but (asdf:load-system :fed) says 'Component :FED not found'
2019-12-11T02:19:58Z jasom: moon-child: for quick-and-dirty dev work, (asdf:load-asd "/path/to/foo.asd")
2019-12-11T02:20:15Z jasom: moon-child: for actual usage, see https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems
2019-12-11T02:20:39Z jasom: TL;DR: put it in ~/common-lisp/foo/
2019-12-11T02:20:54Z moon-child: ahh, missed that
2019-12-11T02:20:55Z moon-child: thanks
2019-12-11T02:21:28Z jasom: moon-child: also, slime is smart enough to use load-asd if you C-c C-k a .asd file.
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2019-12-11T02:28:40Z moon-child: hmm.  How do I actually make it load stuff?  I have   :components ((:file "fed"))   in my defsystem, and    :export #:do-stuff   in my defpackage in fed.lisp (where do-stuff just prints a message), but running (fed:do-stuff) from the repl says 'Package FED does not exist'
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2019-12-11T02:34:51Z jasom: (asdf:load-system "foo")
2019-12-11T02:36:09Z jasom: did you accidentally do (defpackage "fed" ...)?
2019-12-11T02:36:21Z jasom: that will define a package named "fed" when you want a package named "FED"
2019-12-11T02:36:34Z moon-child: nope, (defpackage :fed)
2019-12-11T02:37:25Z jasom: then (asdf:load-system "fed") should load your system; you might need to do something to get asdf to reload the .asd file if it's changed I don't recall off the top of my head
2019-12-11T02:37:51Z moon-child: doesn't work.  I say     sbcl --eval '(asdf:load-asd "/home/elronnd/code/fed/src/fed.asd")' --eval '(asdf:load-system "fed")'   and get an error about 'component "fed" not found'
2019-12-11T02:38:13Z jasom: that's odd
2019-12-11T02:39:23Z moon-child: eh, symlinked the whole project into ~/common-lisp/.  Easier than figuring this crap out
2019-12-11T02:40:06Z jason_m: Bike: I went the way you suggested, binding gensyms to my variables, and then expanding to forms that use the gensyms.  Working like a charm.
2019-12-11T02:40:39Z jasom: FYI, IIRC symlinked directories didn't work in CCL 10 years ago; that may have been fixed in the meantime though.  Should work with sbcl either way though.
2019-12-11T02:41:19Z jasom: The "component "fed" not found" was "fed" in the same directory as fed.asd?
2019-12-11T02:41:31Z jasom: The "component "fed" not found" was fed.lisp in the same directory as fed.asd?
2019-12-11T02:41:38Z moon-child: yah
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2019-12-11T02:41:54Z jasom: no clue; I do the load-asd thing all the time with no issues.
2019-12-11T02:42:17Z moon-child: eh, it's fine.  This is a fine solution (and probably cleaner, too)
2019-12-11T02:42:24Z jasom: cool
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2019-12-11T03:57:50Z no-defun-allowed: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Revision-18.lisp The CL condition system implemented in portable Common Lisp
2019-12-11T03:58:16Z no-defun-allowed: Well, CLtL 1-era Common Lisp.
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2019-12-11T04:00:29Z no-defun-allowed finds the EVAL-WHEN ;; NHEW-LAVE "pairs" funny
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2019-12-11T04:12:03Z Bike: ecl's is based on this, i'm reasonably sure
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2019-12-11T04:18:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-11T05:57:59Z vseloved: moon-child: asdf:load-asd doesn't load the whole system, it only loads the ASD file and registers it. That's why you need asdf:load-system
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2019-12-11T06:19:12Z equwal: Good morning beach!
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2019-12-11T09:29:51Z phoe: morning
2019-12-11T09:30:20Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning phoe
2019-12-11T09:32:31Z easye: Mornin', phoe.
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2019-12-11T09:46:52Z phoe: I wonder why CCL actually separates its compilation into stages
2019-12-11T09:47:51Z phoe: if it cross-compiles a half of its FASLs into a bootstrapping image that then loads everything up and produces a normal image, why can't it just cross-compile everything into a normal image and skip the bootstrapping image part
2019-12-11T09:50:01Z shka__: phoe: one common reason to do so is to reduce memory usage
2019-12-11T09:50:44Z shka__: it is frequent in compilers that originate from limited hardware
2019-12-11T09:50:49Z phoe: shka__: is that still a real issue nowadays?
2019-12-11T09:50:59Z phoe: I understand where it comes from
2019-12-11T09:51:12Z shka__: it is not, but you can't just erase history
2019-12-11T09:51:15Z phoe: but I don't know if it still has a reasonable explanation in modern times
2019-12-11T09:51:33Z phoe: what do you mean, erase history
2019-12-11T09:51:35Z shka__: even visual studio had this legacy
2019-12-11T09:51:37Z Shinmera: might also be that it's hard to ensure system stability if you start replacing core parts
2019-12-11T09:51:54Z phoe: Shinmera: that's why I pointed out *cross-compilation*
2019-12-11T09:52:22Z phoe: the way I understand CCL build process now is, it actually cross-compiles the core FASLs into a fake heap that doesn't touch the original one
2019-12-11T09:52:42Z phoe: so the parts of the original core system are not modified that way
2019-12-11T09:52:50Z phoe: (assuming that I understand the build process correctly)
2019-12-11T09:52:53Z Shinmera: well if parts of the new should influence further compilation then you have to make the new build the rest.
2019-12-11T09:53:05Z Shinmera: or replace the old and make that build the rest
2019-12-11T09:53:11Z Shinmera: or have both coexist (SICL method)
2019-12-11T09:53:34Z phoe: yes, that's correct, I have run into that issue a few times now - I have to modify the old compiler to be able to build the new one
2019-12-11T09:54:04Z Shinmera: right, and doing so is hard to keep stable.
2019-12-11T09:54:08Z phoe: correct
2019-12-11T09:54:10Z Shinmera: much easier to have a clean slate.
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2019-12-11T09:54:32Z phoe: overall, I am trying to understand and simplify CCL's build process in order to someday make it bootstrappable off any standard CL
2019-12-11T09:54:53Z phoe: and it's practically impossible to do so with all the current cruft and weirdnesses standing in the way
2019-12-11T09:54:57Z Shinmera: that's a tall order. SBCL goes through great pains to make it possible.
2019-12-11T09:55:18Z phoe: well if SBCL can do that then so can CCL
2019-12-11T09:55:27Z Shinmera: anything is possible
2019-12-11T09:55:39Z Shinmera: The question is whether it's worth the effort.
2019-12-11T09:55:51Z aeth: anything computable is possible...
2019-12-11T09:56:06Z aeth: sometimes the time involved takes too long, though
2019-12-11T09:56:23Z phoe: if I understand the absolute basics, then one would need to load the CCL compiler into any CL image, then have that compiler build CCL
2019-12-11T09:56:40Z phoe: this already requires the compiler to be cleanly loadable as a library
2019-12-11T09:56:52Z phoe: so it can't depend on anything that is CCL-specific unless that part is also loadable as a library.
2019-12-11T09:56:54Z Shinmera: that's already troublesome due to assumptions about types and sizes and such
2019-12-11T09:57:05Z phoe: and woohoo that is already a lot of work to do
2019-12-11T09:57:36Z phoe: yes, it would involve explicitly writing out all things that are implicit now
2019-12-11T09:58:21Z Shinmera: I mean, just my ppinion, but I feel like there's more worthwhile things to invest time in.
2019-12-11T09:58:30Z jackdaniel: speaking of compilation, I'm playing with IR visulaizer for ECL in McCLIM: https://files.mastodon.social/media_attachments/files/022/594/776/original/735aed1663ffd99e.png
2019-12-11T09:59:24Z phoe: Shinmera: I respect your opinion, and yet I feel like investing my time in cleaning up the mess that CCL currently is.
2019-12-11T09:59:38Z phoe: jackdaniel: hey that's enjoyable
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2019-12-11T10:00:49Z jackdaniel: I've already spotted a bug thanks to that (not something user would notice, because compilation result is correct though suboptimal) -- inlined let variables does not have propagated types
2019-12-11T10:01:28Z galdor: it makes me feel better about not finding out how to rebuild CCL despite the documentation
2019-12-11T10:02:01Z galdor: apparently I need to build a special stage, and I cannot build it with the packaged ccl for Archlinux
2019-12-11T10:02:46Z galdor: (and for the record thank you for investing time and energy in CCL, having more than one major, actively maintained CL implementation is a good thing)
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2019-12-11T10:05:45Z phoe: the process is ugly and I have no idea if any information is actually not in the source code anywhere but instead passed around only from binary to binary
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2019-12-11T10:06:12Z phoe: such as the ominous lack of DEFPACKAGE "COMMON-LISP" anywhere in the source tree
2019-12-11T10:06:55Z jackdaniel: (cl:defpackage cl) -> error, no such package
2019-12-11T10:07:53Z phoe: jackdaniel: that was a metaphor, eh
2019-12-11T10:08:13Z jackdaniel: metaphor of what?
2019-12-11T10:08:23Z phoe: I don't know where the actual CL package for the new Lisp image is created in the CCL build process
2019-12-11T10:08:55Z phoe: and what is its state based on
2019-12-11T10:09:16Z phoe: and whether it's specified anywhere in the source code or whether it's the state of whatever is in the existing binary image
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2019-12-11T10:10:42Z phoe: SBCL makes it explicit with its :SB!XC package that is then renamed to :COMMON-LISP
2019-12-11T10:10:53Z phoe: I see not such explicitness in CCL just yet
2019-12-11T10:12:27Z galdor: what does "XC" means for SBCL?
2019-12-11T10:12:32Z phoe: cross-compiled
2019-12-11T10:12:38Z galdor: good to know, thank you
2019-12-11T10:12:57Z phoe: :sb!xc is the package that is meant to become the target :common-lisp package.
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2019-12-11T10:21:44Z jackdaniel: phoe: it takes the package from the host, see l1-cl-package.lisp and (defconstant *common-lisp-package* *common-lisp-package*) in l1-init.lisp
2019-12-11T10:22:12Z jackdaniel: (since ccl is always bootstrapped from ccl it is fine I suppose)
2019-12-11T10:23:11Z beach: phoe: Have you read Xof's paper on bootstrapping SBCL and our paper on bootstrapping Common Lisp on Common Lisp?
2019-12-11T10:23:18Z phoe: beach: yes, both.
2019-12-11T10:23:23Z beach: Good.
2019-12-11T10:23:25Z phoe: jackdaniel: I actually just found it
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2019-12-11T10:23:38Z beach: phoe: It is not trivial to accomplish what you want.
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2019-12-11T10:24:00Z phoe: xdump/xfasload.lisp has a function called XLOAD-CLONE-PACKAGES that "clones" the existing CL package and then dumps that in the FASL.
2019-12-11T10:24:11Z phoe: beach: I'm well aware of it.
2019-12-11T10:24:36Z shka__: dumps package?
2019-12-11T10:24:57Z phoe: shka__: dupms the package object in there, I mean.
2019-12-11T10:24:58Z jackdaniel: shka__: make-load-object etc
2019-12-11T10:25:02Z phoe: s/dupms/dumps/
2019-12-11T10:25:16Z shka__: what is included?
2019-12-11T10:25:33Z shka__: in the dump, i mean
2019-12-11T10:26:11Z phoe: shka__: I'm still reading the code. Seems like just the import and export tables and the package name and nicknames.
2019-12-11T10:26:35Z phoe: And that is good, since for the CL package this is pretty much constant.
2019-12-11T10:26:52Z phoe: At least the name, nicknames, and exports are all standardized.
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2019-12-11T12:51:49Z pjb: phoe: the actual operator to create packages is the function make-package.  The CL package is not essential to the creation of a CL implementation. Calling make-package can be the last thing done by a CL implementation…
2019-12-11T12:54:50Z pjb: phoe: and indeed, when you are generating a new CL implementation, you don't need to define its objects. You only need to write an image file…
2019-12-11T12:55:04Z phoe: pjb: yes, I've already explained it is a metaphor.
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2019-12-11T12:55:20Z pjb: AH, if it's a metaphor, ok.
2019-12-11T12:55:23Z phoe: I wanted to see where the object that will become the new #<Package COMMON-LISP> is instantiated. And I finally found it.
2019-12-11T12:55:38Z pjb: Good.
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2019-12-11T14:07:18Z jackdaniel: I think that metaphor is not the right word here
2019-12-11T14:07:42Z jackdaniel: maybe a substitute, or a mental shortcut
2019-12-11T14:08:13Z phoe: mental shortcut is better, yes
2019-12-11T14:08:14Z phoe: thanks
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2019-12-11T14:15:31Z pfdietz: (reads back)  Making the SBCL build process not be self-modifying had a cost.  The SBCL build took 2x as long as a CMUCL build after they were forked.  Not important now, of course.
2019-12-11T14:16:12Z phoe: not important, why?
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2019-12-11T14:18:03Z jmercouris: because build time is not important
2019-12-11T14:18:14Z jmercouris: it is a fixed cost, you don't find yourself building over and over again as a user
2019-12-11T14:19:31Z jackdaniel: build time is still important, especially for a developer. it is just that build times are more than 2x faster now
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2019-12-11T14:19:55Z jackdaniel: so the hardware improvements (and later build improvements) offsetted the initial drawback
2019-12-11T14:20:34Z phoe: jmercouris: unless you are an implementation maintainer and you build your implementation over and over and over, at which point the delays compound into something significant
2019-12-11T14:20:43Z jackdaniel: it is not uncommon for users to complain about long build times (especially on subpar hardware, i.e armv7)
2019-12-11T14:20:54Z phoe: also what jackdaniel says
2019-12-11T14:21:01Z jmercouris: phoe: I said very clearly that as a user it is irrelevant to you
2019-12-11T14:21:14Z phoe: well I ain't a user here
2019-12-11T14:21:19Z jmercouris: I don't care
2019-12-11T14:21:23Z phoe: neither do I
2019-12-11T14:21:39Z jackdaniel: "compilation time doesn't matter" is a fad which was quite popular at some point of time
2019-12-11T14:21:42Z phoe: I'm curious about pfdietz's reasoning behind the "not important now"
2019-12-11T14:21:45Z jmercouris: It still doesn't matter
2019-12-11T14:21:53Z jmercouris: any decent package manager distributes binaries as well
2019-12-11T14:22:01Z jmercouris: I don't expect people to compile firefox on their machines
2019-12-11T14:22:02Z phoe: ...such as Quicklisp
2019-12-11T14:22:19Z jmercouris: Quicklisp is not an operating system package manager
2019-12-11T14:22:28Z jmercouris: its almost 2020, join us in the new era
2019-12-11T14:22:38Z phoe: I'm not talking about operating system package managers, I'm talking about building Lisp implementations
2019-12-11T14:22:56Z phoe: specifically about the bootstrapping part
2019-12-11T14:23:07Z jackdaniel: fact that it doesn't matter to you and that you live in 2020 (off by one error?) is of no relevance to me  ;)
2019-12-11T14:23:28Z jmercouris: Ah okay, I see we are not open to new viewpoints today
2019-12-11T14:23:39Z jmercouris: maybe another day
2019-12-11T14:23:52Z jackdaniel: if you are not open to them, then I'm sorry to hear that ,) we are getting back to more productive endavours
2019-12-11T14:23:54Z phoe: I'm open about viewpoints, I'm closed to derailing conversations into offtopic
2019-12-11T14:24:55Z jmercouris: both of you have it out for me it seems! anyways, agreed, let's stop here
2019-12-11T14:25:14Z phoe: I asked pfdietz about why sbcl build time doesn't matter now, not you about why all build time doesn't matter in general
2019-12-11T14:25:27Z phoe: these two questions are pretty different and turn into different discussions, don'tcha think
2019-12-11T14:25:35Z phoe: anyway, I'm back to hacking for now
2019-12-11T14:25:58Z pjb: Perhaps they use incremental build while developping/debuging the implementation?
2019-12-11T14:26:11Z pfdietz: sbcl build time is not important, or at least less important, now because it's so much shorter than it was then.
2019-12-11T14:26:31Z pfdietz: Remember, this is 20 years ago we're talking about.
2019-12-11T14:26:40Z jackdaniel scores 10 points for anticipating the reasoning :)
2019-12-11T14:26:41Z phoe: pfdietz: as in, there's been build time improvements over that time? or moore's law?
2019-12-11T14:27:22Z pfdietz: Moore's law, I think.  If anything, there's been some increase in the amount of computation done for a build.  I think SBCL's optimizations have gotten more expensive, for example.
2019-12-11T14:27:42Z beach: phoe: Moore's law is about the number of transistors on a chip.  Not about speed.
2019-12-11T14:27:56Z pfdietz: Smaller transistors are typically faster, though.
2019-12-11T14:28:20Z phoe: beach: thanks for the correction.
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2019-12-11T14:29:30Z pfdietz: The move from 32 to 64 bit builds also introduced a one-time speedbump.   Cons cells got twice as big.
2019-12-11T14:33:23Z pfdietz: The build is also accelerated now by being able to use multiple cores.  That could probably be pushed further, but as it stends SBCL builds and runs the post-build tests in 1:15 on this machine.
2019-12-11T14:33:49Z pfdietz: Compared to building Clang, that's nearly instantaneous. :)
2019-12-11T14:33:59Z dlowe: cons cells got twice as big but we got more type tags and bigger fixnums
2019-12-11T14:34:28Z Shinmera: and unboxed single floats
2019-12-11T14:34:58Z pfdietz: Yes.  I also remember the speed hit paleolisps took when we went from 16 to 32 bits.   Not much you can do in 16 bits, admittedly.
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2019-12-11T14:38:41Z ghard: Hello all
2019-12-11T14:38:46Z phoe: heyyy
2019-12-11T14:38:51Z phoe: pfdietz: thanks for the explanation.
2019-12-11T14:38:59Z beach: Hello ghard.
2019-12-11T14:39:08Z ghard: Has anybody tried using zs3 with DigitalOcean Spaces?
2019-12-11T14:39:39Z jackdaniel: I think that Xach uses zs3 for quicklisp, but I know no details
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2019-12-11T14:40:59Z ghard: Yeah I was trying to quickly glance through the docs to see if the endpoint base URLs are configurable. Spaces claims to be API-compatible with S3
2019-12-11T14:42:18Z ghard: Okay I get back to RTFM on it :)
2019-12-11T14:42:41Z pfdietz: The *fine* manual!
2019-12-11T14:43:38Z ghard: It actually is quite nice comparing to some :) All kudos to xach.
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2019-12-11T14:48:35Z pjb: beach: what if you put enough transistors on a chip to compute all possible hash values at once.  Would that make it faster to find bitcoins?  Would I be able to find all the remaining bitcoins?
2019-12-11T14:49:15Z pjb: Of course, there are problems that are not parallelizable. I don't think I could find all the remaining bitcoins at once. But I could find them faster than the other miners…
2019-12-11T14:49:40Z pjb: Happily for bitcoins, there are fewer atoms in the universe than hash values…
2019-12-11T14:49:52Z pjb: Isn't it funny to live in a finite universe?
2019-12-11T14:50:00Z ghard: I reckon not even the rotational energy of Steve Jobs in his grave would be enough to pay the electricity bill for that amount of transistors?
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2019-12-11T14:51:48Z ghard: THough the universe might be finite, the number of them might not be *ducks*.
2019-12-11T14:52:29Z phoe: today I learned that #0AT is valid Lisp
2019-12-11T14:53:02Z ghard: Depends of the reader macro?
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2019-12-11T14:53:22Z phoe: nope, it's tested in ANSI-TEST.
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2019-12-11T14:53:41Z ghard: wow
2019-12-11T14:54:13Z phoe: #0ARIGATO, here I come
2019-12-11T14:54:30Z pjb: phoe: #0A(even this is valid)
2019-12-11T14:54:39Z phoe: pjb: yes
2019-12-11T14:55:24Z ghard: Evaluates to itself it seems yeah
2019-12-11T14:55:42Z phoe: it's a zero dimensional array
2019-12-11T14:55:44Z ghard: No it's a simple array?
2019-12-11T14:55:46Z phoe: that stores exactly one object
2019-12-11T14:55:54Z ghard: Yeah just checked with the inspector
2019-12-11T14:56:01Z pjb: (aref #0AT) #| --> t |#
2019-12-11T14:56:20Z pjb: (aref #0A 3)  #| --> 3 |#
2019-12-11T14:56:23Z ghard: With element type of T huh
2019-12-11T14:56:38Z pjb: all lisp objects are of type T!
2019-12-11T14:57:10Z phoe: ghard: (make-array '() :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))
2019-12-11T14:57:10Z pjb: (values (aref #(a b c d) 3) (aref #0A 3)) #| --> d ; 3 |# ;-)
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2019-12-11T14:59:53Z ghard: Unhhh
2019-12-11T15:01:18Z ghard: That's... interesting.
2019-12-11T15:01:31Z _death: in #0A 3 the space is whitespace
2019-12-11T15:02:07Z pjb: (aref #2A ( (1 2) (3 4) (5 6) )  0 0) #| --> 1 |#
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2019-12-11T15:02:57Z ghard: Yeah #0A alone is an EOF condition in reader
2019-12-11T15:03:11Z ghard: At least with SBCL it is
2019-12-11T15:03:34Z phoe: it is an EOF condition, yes, since #0A expects to read a Lisp object
2019-12-11T15:03:41Z pjb: Of course, since #0A must read a lisp object.
2019-12-11T15:03:45Z ghard: I really need to read some more on that (pun intender)
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2019-12-11T15:04:53Z pjb: It's like #P which reads a string.  (values #P  #.(format nil "~A/~A" 'dir 'file.type)) #| --> #P"dir/file.type" |#
2019-12-11T15:05:08Z pjb: Or #' which reads a symbol, etc.
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2019-12-11T15:06:20Z _death: what's surprising is that #(1 2 3) and #1A(1 2 3) are not equivalent
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2019-12-11T15:07:13Z phoe: _death: why?
2019-12-11T15:08:00Z _death: backquote.. compare `#(a ,(read) c) and `#1A(a ,(read) c)
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2019-12-11T15:08:28Z phoe: oh right, #( works with backquote
2019-12-11T15:08:51Z phoe: a tricky question, because #(1 2 3) and #1A(1 2 3) *are* equivalent
2019-12-11T15:09:02Z phoe: it's versions with backquote that don't work the same
2019-12-11T15:09:04Z _death: their evaluation is
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2019-12-11T15:13:21Z phoe: they evaluate to equalp objects, correct
2019-12-11T15:13:31Z phoe: but #A doesn't respect backquote
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2019-12-11T15:13:52Z Bike: seems like it wouldn't be too bad to define `#nAX = #.(make-array dims :initial-contents `X), though
2019-12-11T15:13:58Z phoe: or wait, does it
2019-12-11T15:14:03Z Bike: it doesn't
2019-12-11T15:14:12Z Bike: backquote is only defined for ( and #(
2019-12-11T15:14:13Z Bike: clhs `
2019-12-11T15:14:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
2019-12-11T15:14:27Z phoe: hah, correct
2019-12-11T15:14:35Z phoe: CCL implements it for #A as well whereas SBCL signals an error
2019-12-11T15:14:39Z phoe: fun
2019-12-11T15:14:56Z Bike: i don't think there's anything saying it's not allowed to work for #a, tho
2019-12-11T15:15:03Z phoe: right, it's undefined
2019-12-11T15:15:06Z phoe: so CCL is free to define it
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2019-12-11T16:02:49Z oni-on-ion: https://islisp.js.org/
2019-12-11T16:02:59Z oni-on-ion: "Standards-compliant Lisp smaller than Common-Lisp" ? hmm.
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2019-12-11T16:03:42Z beach: Hmm what?
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2019-12-11T16:04:38Z Bike: what standard
2019-12-11T16:04:44Z Bike: islisp??
2019-12-11T16:04:51Z beach: Yes.
2019-12-11T16:04:57Z oni-on-ion: it was shared on an article (about getting CL REPL in web browser, parenscript) and it looks a bit old now that i dig a bit deeper
2019-12-11T16:05:13Z oni-on-ion: ohh, its not even CL.
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2019-12-11T16:05:33Z oni-on-ion: sorry, the page was mentioning CL and Standards in the same sentences on several pages.
2019-12-11T16:05:48Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISLISP
2019-12-11T16:06:04Z beach: ISLISP is a different standard.
2019-12-11T16:06:21Z oni-on-ion: ohh - yeah. i did not know about this at all, first time hearing of it
2019-12-11T16:07:47Z pfdietz: Ah yes, ISLisp.  Wasn't there a story of subtle sabotage of that effort by some of the US CL people?
2019-12-11T16:08:38Z phoe: Was it the story of European lispers versus the USA lispers?
2019-12-11T16:08:45Z shka__: no
2019-12-11T16:08:53Z phoe: Whoever is able to push their standard out first?
2019-12-11T16:09:02Z shka__: you are refering to eulisp
2019-12-11T16:09:05Z phoe: I remember something like that being mentioned some time ag---
2019-12-11T16:09:09Z phoe: Yes, thank you. That's the one.
2019-12-11T16:09:16Z shka__: which is imho quite a bit better idea then islisp
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2019-12-11T16:10:19Z shka__: islisp is obsolete
2019-12-11T16:10:23Z shka__: and always was
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2019-12-11T16:22:20Z oni-on-ion: ahh =)
2019-12-11T16:22:31Z oni-on-ion: (btw found the solution i was looking for: parenscript + https://github.com/skeeto/skewer-mode )
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2019-12-11T17:20:49Z jackdaniel: the interesting point about islisp is that it got founding and drained people from eulisp, so instead of an interesting dialect finished we got a stripped down islisp
2019-12-11T17:20:58Z jackdaniel: I think that Kent Pitman wrote a piece about it
2019-12-11T17:21:44Z beach: Do you mean that Eulisp is a stripped down ISLisp?
2019-12-11T17:21:55Z jackdaniel: no, islisp is a stripped down common lisp
2019-12-11T17:22:08Z beach: Ah, I see.
2019-12-11T17:22:34Z jackdaniel: and (afaik) eulisp was started by dissatisfied european lispers who were not invited to cl standarization process (and the rationale from us was that there was no ill will, but rather it would be too troublesome to cooparate across the ocean)
2019-12-11T17:22:40Z beach: I don't follow the logic, but I believe you.
2019-12-11T17:22:45Z jackdaniel: I'm afk now (will read the backlog later)
2019-12-11T17:23:06Z jackdaniel: I mean: people who were working on eulisp got hired to work on islisp
2019-12-11T17:23:46Z beach: I understand, but I don't follow the logic consequence that therefore ISLisp is a stripped-down Common Lisp.
2019-12-11T17:26:32Z william1: Do people recommend Practical Common Lisp as an intro to Lisp?
2019-12-11T17:26:59Z beach: william1: Yes, to people who already know how to program in some other language.
2019-12-11T17:27:16Z william1: So I'm a rubyist by occupation
2019-12-11T17:27:27Z william1: And know how to program I'd say
2019-12-11T17:27:29Z william1: Thanks
2019-12-11T17:27:32Z beach: Sure.
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2019-12-11T17:28:04Z beach: william1: If you have questions, you can ask here.
2019-12-11T17:28:19Z beach: And if the questions are truly trivial, you will be directed to #clschool instead.
2019-12-11T17:29:20Z william1: Do you dabble in other languages beach?
2019-12-11T17:29:35Z beach: Me?  Not anymore.
2019-12-11T17:29:44Z william1: Fair enough :)
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2019-12-11T17:34:53Z beach: william1: What made you decide to learn Common Lisp?
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2019-12-11T17:36:58Z Lycurgus: ruby
2019-12-11T17:36:59Z jackdaniel: beach: that was a claim, not a consequence of previous statements. let me look for a link where Kent Pitman goes over islisp
2019-12-11T17:37:14Z beach: jackdaniel: Ah, OK.
2019-12-11T17:37:43Z beach: jackdaniel: I misunderstood the "so ....".
2019-12-11T17:38:05Z jackdaniel: right
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2019-12-11T17:51:03Z jackdaniel: beach: I give up, I can't find the piece I was referring to where Pitman talks about IsLisp being basically a subset of CL, only some remarks about "cultural compatibility". If I find it accidently later I will link it
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2019-12-11T17:51:43Z beach: I vaguely remember something like that.
2019-12-11T17:51:47Z beach: Don't worry about it.
2019-12-11T17:52:22Z jackdaniel: he was listing islisp operators and for each of them there were three or four cl counterparts
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2019-12-11T17:53:28Z jackdaniel: and there is this (cleanup issue for incompatible operators): http://clhs.lisp.se/Issues/iss198_w.htm
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2019-12-11T17:55:16Z Bike: well, i'm glad we got the lambda macro.
2019-12-11T17:55:32Z Bike: and global symbol macros
2019-12-11T17:55:50Z pjb: Otherwise we would all be (ql:quickload :lambda-macro)…
2019-12-11T17:56:31Z Bike: the issue says it would be forbidden for an implementation to define the lambda macro
2019-12-11T17:56:38Z Bike: not sure i quite follow that
2019-12-11T17:56:44Z Bike: some package restriction i guess
2019-12-11T17:56:57Z pjb: Bike: yes, but not lambda-macro:lambda
2019-12-11T17:57:09Z Bike: wow look at all this bikeshedding about lambda
2019-12-11T17:57:26Z pjb: (defpackage "MY-PGM" (:use "CL") (:shadowing-import-from  "LAMBDA-MACRO" "LAMBDA")) …
2019-12-11T17:57:57Z _death: pjb: but then you would need to qualify, #'(cl:lambda ...)
2019-12-11T17:58:12Z pjb: Unless you redefine #' to substitute for you :-)
2019-12-11T17:58:24Z Bike: i guess the "confusion about why the arguments are treated differently from the head" thing did kind of pan out
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2019-12-11T18:05:32Z _death: pjb: #' is just a shorthand for (function ...) so now you need to replace cl:function
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2019-12-11T18:16:36Z _death: and note that in clhs there are multiple entries for lambda/function... and there's a lot of code that depends on CL symbol identity for functionality, so it's a fool's errand
2019-12-11T18:21:21Z _death: basically if you shadow-import CL-like names, you're not in Kansas anymore
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2019-12-11T20:14:45Z pjb: _death: #' is not a shorthand.  There's no shorthand in CL.  #' is a dispatching reader macro.  This is something that you can mutate.
2019-12-11T20:15:15Z pjb: _death: CL is not Kansas.  It's more like Wonderland.
2019-12-11T20:17:39Z Bike: this doesn't change the point that cl:function can be used by itself
2019-12-11T20:17:46Z jackdaniel: Land of Oz would be a better reference
2019-12-11T20:17:50Z Bike: and cl:lambda has meanings in other places, like coerce and compile
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2019-12-11T20:46:09Z mfiano: You can't use #'(lambda ...) everywhere lambda is accepted.
2019-12-11T20:47:05Z jackdaniel tries (#'(lambda () 42)) to no avail ,-)
2019-12-11T20:47:26Z mfiano: Also :report in conditions and restarts
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2019-12-11T20:57:27Z jasom: #' is a shorthand for (function ...) under standard syntax...
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2019-12-11T21:20:19Z pfdietz: (CAR '#'FOO) ==> FUNCTION
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2019-12-11T21:32:59Z aeth: you can see this in macros
2019-12-11T21:33:19Z aeth: If you want a macro to handle #'foo in a special way, you're really looking for (function foo)
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2019-12-11T21:33:41Z aeth: then you can e.g. have that macro turn it into (foo ...)
2019-12-11T21:34:43Z aeth: Strangely, that would mean that #'(lambda ...) would work and (lambda ...) would not, bringing us full circle
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2019-12-12T01:00:27Z smokeink: https://gist.github.com/vindarel/107ed869399a548e6ef41dc324df3099   "Above is actually Lisp data. Code as data." can sbcl also do these?
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2019-12-12T01:03:00Z White_Flame: yes, that is standard Common Lisp.  lispworks and sbcl and all the other majors follow the standard
2019-12-12T01:03:45Z White_Flame: and even 1960s LISP does that in nature
2019-12-12T01:04:14Z no-defun-allowed: Er, even replacing the code in the debugger by mutating list structure?
2019-12-12T01:04:43Z White_Flame might have skimmed too shallowly
2019-12-12T01:04:54Z no-defun-allowed: You can replace functions quite easily, but I don't think that would work on compiled code.
2019-12-12T01:04:55Z Bike: wow, evalhook!
2019-12-12T01:04:57Z Bike: old school
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2019-12-12T01:08:54Z White_Flame: smokeink: having now properly read it, I don't think so.  Also, 'grep -ir evalhook' in the sbcl directory returns nothing but a single binary match
2019-12-12T01:09:02Z Bike: it's pre-clhs
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2019-12-12T01:09:27Z White_Flame: well, CLHS does have issue articles recommending deprectaing evalhook-related stuff
2019-12-12T01:09:47Z smokeink: I'd like to be able in the repl to see the definition of some function/macro
2019-12-12T01:09:48Z White_Flame: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss149_w.htm
2019-12-12T01:09:57Z White_Flame: ah, that is possible in SBCL
2019-12-12T01:14:22Z White_Flame: (sb-impl::function-lambda-expression #'foo)
2019-12-12T01:16:15Z White_Flame: if you can see it from DESCRIBE, the information is there.  Just M-. till you hit it ;)
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2019-12-12T01:17:05Z smokeink: thanks
2019-12-12T01:17:05Z White_Flame: (of course, if you just want visual inspection, (describe #'foo) can work, too)
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2019-12-12T01:17:30Z smokeink: I'm working in the console without emacs, now I'll go figure out how M-. actually works
2019-12-12T01:18:28Z Bike: sb-introspect:find-definition-source
2019-12-12T01:18:47Z Bike: it will be rather less convenient, of course
2019-12-12T01:20:16Z smokeink: cool
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2019-12-12T01:24:31Z smokeink: is there any way to tell the debugger in the main thread to always (sb-thread:release-foreground) or (bordeaux-threads:yield-thread) when some error is triggered in other threads?
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2019-12-12T01:51:08Z _death: it is possible to replace the code in the debugger.. sbcl has an interpreter (actually, it has two) and you can switch to interpreter mode by doing (setf sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* :interpret).. then you can evaluate the let form with the break and be able to modify the expression in the appropriate frame, but may be unable to restart it.. the way I got around that was to switch back to compile mode, redefine the main evaluator functions
2019-12-12T01:51:09Z _death: with debug 3, and retry.. then I could restart the frame after modification and continue to get 64
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2019-12-12T01:52:44Z _death: I see sb-fasteval has *applyhook* .. maybe both hooks could be added to sb-eval without too much trouble
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2019-12-12T03:45:40Z White_Flame: as I'm splitting a project into multiple directories, and thus creating asdf modules (not new systems) for each, I've come across a dependency that reaches to a peer directory.  Is that expressable in asdf?
2019-12-12T03:48:29Z White_Flame: so this si a file dependency from low-level/file1.lisp of high-level/file2.lisp
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2019-12-12T04:30:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-12T04:37:53Z johnjay: does anybody know if ros system produces a 'bootstrap' file
2019-12-12T04:38:08Z johnjay: which makes configure and Makefiles, or is that something sbcl or what?
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2019-12-12T04:41:58Z johnjay: i have this Cl project from github and i'm trying to figure out how its build system works
2019-12-12T04:43:54Z Bike: well, i've never heard of a bootstrap file. the usual lisp build system is asdf, which involves .asd files.
2019-12-12T04:46:07Z johnjay: yeah this one has those.
2019-12-12T04:46:21Z johnjay: but i couldn't figure out how to go from those to running the application
2019-12-12T04:46:37Z johnjay: i somehow got it to produce some fasl files but then those stop with a package name error
2019-12-12T04:47:00Z johnjay: Bike: I run 'bootstrap' and it produces configure which then produces Makefile etc
2019-12-12T04:47:16Z johnjay: i'm guessing maybe roswell creates it since the instructions say to use ros to build and run it
2019-12-12T04:47:57Z Bike: does this project not have build instructions?
2019-12-12T04:48:27Z Bike: https://github.com/roswell/roswell/wiki/Installation roswell involves something called bootstrap, i guess
2019-12-12T04:49:02Z johnjay: ah i bet that's it then
2019-12-12T04:49:12Z johnjay: well the instructions say to use ros to build and install it. but correct me if i'm wrong
2019-12-12T04:49:18Z johnjay: doesn't it just download the source and build that?
2019-12-12T04:49:30Z johnjay: i was thinking "I have this folder with these .lisp files, build these"
2019-12-12T04:50:10Z Bike: i'm not familiar with roswell
2019-12-12T04:50:14Z johnjay: this is it. it's an ncurses emacs-like editor: https://github.com/cxxxr/lem
2019-12-12T04:50:46Z johnjay: ok. i've been struggling with quicklisp and asdf to even get them to compile parts of it
2019-12-12T04:50:54Z johnjay: like asdf.. @_@
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2019-12-12T04:51:31Z johnjay: there's like .local/share/something for the default place for projects. then like .config/lisp/something for a .conf file to extend that
2019-12-12T04:51:35Z johnjay: idk how it works
2019-12-12T04:51:43Z no-defun-allowed: Autoconf? In my Lisp build process?
2019-12-12T04:51:46Z johnjay: and apparently the quicklisp install failed too
2019-12-12T04:52:02Z johnjay: i had to type (ql:add-to-init-file) to get it to run when i start sbcl
2019-12-12T04:52:32Z Bike: that's part of the quicklisp install. quicklisp is not exactly installed unless you run that (or write out an initfile yourself)
2019-12-12T04:53:16Z no-defun-allowed: I'm deeply concerned that there are new Lisp projects with Makefiles.
2019-12-12T04:53:18Z Bike: the build instructions say to install ros, and then use ros to install lem. i would go with that if i were you.
2019-12-12T04:53:54Z johnjay: Bike: ah i see the problem. i wasn't reading the instructions on quicklisp.org but on the FAQ
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2019-12-12T04:54:20Z johnjay: and the FAQ sorta implies that (quicklisp-quickstart:install :path ".quicklisp/") is all you need
2019-12-12T04:54:34Z Bike: i mean, if you run that command, it tells you to run add-to-init-file
2019-12-12T04:54:48Z Bike: as i remember, anyway, it's been a while
2019-12-12T04:54:57Z Bike: you can also load quicklisp yourself just by loading quicklisp/setup.lisp
2019-12-12T04:55:19Z Bike: no-defun-allowed: it looks to me like the makefile just runs roswell
2019-12-12T04:56:11Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, that configure.ac is quite short.
2019-12-12T04:56:15Z johnjay: ah well my bad then
2019-12-12T04:56:45Z Bike: you don't seem familiar with common lisp, so rolling your own build procedure might be kind of an adventure, is all
2019-12-12T04:56:58Z johnjay: i didn't look but i did notice that changing the .lisp files was reflected in the output
2019-12-12T04:57:11Z johnjay: i.e. i changed some command and reran 'make' and got the new exe
2019-12-12T04:57:21Z johnjay: i've used quicklisp like twice before today
2019-12-12T04:57:42Z johnjay: and the asdf manual was confusing as a solar system with 2 suns
2019-12-12T04:57:48Z Bike: yes, it is confusing.
2019-12-12T04:57:57Z Bike: usually you just do something like (asdf:load-system :system-name)
2019-12-12T04:58:00Z johnjay: like... my $XDG variables dont' even have the same values as what it said
2019-12-12T04:58:04Z Bike: or better yet, (ql:quickload ;system-name)
2019-12-12T04:58:20Z johnjay: right. but then you have to start making symlinks to the .asd files it depends on or it won't see them
2019-12-12T04:58:27Z Bike: you can also push directories to uhhhh asdf:*central-registry* or something
2019-12-12T04:58:33Z johnjay: then there's a .asd in each dir so you start recursively making them
2019-12-12T04:58:45Z Bike: ah, i see.
2019-12-12T04:59:11Z johnjay: yeah idk. as you say i don't know what i'm doing
2019-12-12T04:59:18Z johnjay: but getting back to the ros thing.
2019-12-12T04:59:19Z Bike: you can put a symlink to the top directory in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/, then run (ql:register-local-projects), and it'll go through recursively
2019-12-12T04:59:22Z Bike: maybe
2019-12-12T04:59:32Z johnjay: the problem is if roswell downloads and compiles the code automatically then i can't make ch anges to it
2019-12-12T04:59:48Z johnjay: maybe ros doesn't do that. but the syntax of 'ros install lem' made me think it does
2019-12-12T05:00:30Z johnjay: so yeah i was hoping you knew what this roswell thing does
2019-12-12T05:00:35Z Bike: oh, do you have lem working already, and now you're just making changes?
2019-12-12T05:00:41Z Bike: i personally don't, but some people here do use it
2019-12-12T05:00:45Z johnjay: just by luck
2019-12-12T05:01:00Z johnjay: i just ran 'bootstrap' and configure/make and it spit out an exe
2019-12-12T05:01:21Z johnjay: i struggled with quicklisp on the sbcl prompt for a while but didn't get much beyond symlinking all the asd files for it to find
2019-12-12T05:01:36Z johnjay: (note, quicklisp has 'lem' in its archive so can download it automatically. but i want to hack it not download it!)
2019-12-12T05:01:45Z Bike: well, quicklisp is very simple
2019-12-12T05:01:51Z Bike: it'll download the directory somewhere
2019-12-12T05:01:58Z Bike: and then if you try to quickload it again, it'll use that directory
2019-12-12T05:02:00Z johnjay: right but i couldn't run the application
2019-12-12T05:02:01Z Bike: so you can just edit stuff
2019-12-12T05:02:20Z johnjay: i tried things like (lem:lem-ncurses) and (lem:lem-main) and such but no dice
2019-12-12T05:02:28Z johnjay: i'm not even sure it's mean to run from sbcl at all
2019-12-12T05:02:37Z Bike: right, well, the other problem here is that looking at lem.asd and the readme, lem is meant to be an independent application
2019-12-12T05:02:44Z Bike: so not started from the repl, no
2019-12-12T05:02:50Z johnjay: that's what I guessed
2019-12-12T05:02:57Z Bike: it may be possible to do so, but it might not be the usual
2019-12-12T05:03:21Z Bike: but if it's in quicklisp, who knows
2019-12-12T05:03:29Z johnjay: so in your experience you typically use asdf and quicklisp as opposed to this roswell thingie?
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2019-12-12T05:04:13Z johnjay: i assume sbcl has special option in manual to make a fasl exe?
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2019-12-12T05:05:02Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, Quicklisp (which wraps ASDF in a way where you will infrequently need to use ASDF yourself) is used more commonly.
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2019-12-12T05:05:38Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL has the sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die function, which will create an executable if given :executable t
2019-12-12T05:06:31Z johnjay: i also get the distinct impression that most of you are using SLIME...
2019-12-12T05:06:38Z johnjay: is that close to accurate?
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2019-12-12T05:07:13Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, that is also a common occurrence.
2019-12-12T05:07:48Z johnjay: ok. i suspected that maybe having no readline at all at the sbcl prompt was hard-mode
2019-12-12T05:08:00Z johnjay: but again it's hard to know without talking to someone
2019-12-12T05:08:41Z no-defun-allowed: SLIME definitely makes "Lisp things" like live reloading and debugging easier in that way.
2019-12-12T05:09:00Z johnjay: i'll settle for readline. i like pressing the up arrow and modifying what i just typed.
2019-12-12T05:10:37Z no-defun-allowed: I would strongly advise against that.
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2019-12-12T05:11:08Z Bike: i also use slime, but if you wanna give the terminal experience a shot, go crazy
2019-12-12T05:12:25Z no-defun-allowed: Here is a short video which captures a sizeable amount of what you would miss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pMyhrDcMzw
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2019-12-12T05:17:59Z johnjay: interesting
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2019-12-12T05:27:07Z tourjin: how can I read in CL what I compiled if I've already erased the function?
2019-12-12T05:31:20Z beach: clhs function-lambda-expression
2019-12-12T05:31:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm
2019-12-12T05:31:44Z beach: tourjin: But this function is allowed to return something that is not useful.
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2019-12-12T05:32:24Z beach: tourjin: Imagine if you could take an application written using a commercial implementation of Common Lisp, and you could recover the full source code of it.
2019-12-12T05:32:48Z beach: tourjin: Not many commercial companies would use Common Lisp then.
2019-12-12T05:33:30Z beach: tourjin: Why did you delete the source code in the first place?
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2019-12-12T05:37:53Z tourjin: I mean I want to read the function codes again what I compiled .... Yesterday I wrote this and that, simple tests . today after I erased some of them I like to see them again what I really typed in.
2019-12-12T05:38:23Z tourjin: can I do that?
2019-12-12T05:40:26Z tourjin: do you mean if once I compiled a function but erased it I can't see them again?
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2019-12-12T05:45:09Z beach: Like I said, it might work with the function I showed you.
2019-12-12T05:45:21Z beach: But, like I also said, it might not.
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2019-12-12T05:46:05Z tourjin: ok thank you
2019-12-12T05:46:18Z beach: tourjin: Compilation is not a reversible thing in general.
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2019-12-12T05:46:58Z beach: Did you quit your Common Lisp system in between?  If so, you may have to look for the FASLs manually, hoping they are still around.
2019-12-12T05:47:24Z tourjin: no I turned it for days.
2019-12-12T05:47:42Z beach: Again, why did you not save the source in the first place?
2019-12-12T05:48:01Z beach: And if you saved it and deleted it, why did you not use GIT so that you can undo the operation?
2019-12-12T05:48:17Z beach: There seems to be something wrong with the way you work.
2019-12-12T05:51:46Z tourjin: thank you for good advise. I've never tried GIT yet. Do you keep every texts you type?
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2019-12-12T05:52:01Z beach: Pretty much, yes.
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2019-12-12T06:52:05Z no-defun-allowed: Are there any hash table implementations for CL that are specialised for string keys?
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2019-12-12T07:45:30Z reepca: could someone with the latest sbcl try running compile-file on http://paste.debian.net/1120751 and tell me what errors (if any) they get? I get a "failed AVER", but I'm on 1.5.8.
2019-12-12T07:49:41Z smokeink: SBCL 1.5.96e88b3c , no crash
2019-12-12T07:49:59Z smokeink: Component :BLAH not found
2019-12-12T07:50:15Z reepca: smokeink: is that in a fresh REPL?
2019-12-12T07:50:33Z smokeink: with quicklisp and swank/slime
2019-12-12T07:51:49Z smokeink: in a fresh --no-init one:  ; compilation finished in 0:00:00.818
2019-12-12T07:52:05Z smokeink: 3 warnings
2019-12-12T07:52:48Z smokeink: I used to get failed AVER errors with 1.5.9  , but with the last few commits  it seems ok
2019-12-12T07:54:13Z reepca: alright, so it's probably an old bug that's since been fixed. Thanks.
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2019-12-12T16:21:03Z jmercouris: having a strange error: http://dpaste.com/0P07D8T
2019-12-12T16:21:37Z jmercouris: I'm using: https://github.com/andy128k/cl-gobject-introspection
2019-12-12T16:22:12Z ebrasca: jmercouris: What is your distribution?
2019-12-12T16:22:19Z jmercouris: ebrasca: macOS mojave
2019-12-12T16:22:52Z jmercouris: I am able to compile things with WebKitGTK+ in them, so not sure what it is complaining about...
2019-12-12T16:22:56Z ebrasca: In debian dere is this package https://packages.debian.org/sid/libjavascriptcoregtk-4.0-18
2019-12-12T16:23:12Z jmercouris: code in question is quite simple: http://dpaste.com/32MQWXR
2019-12-12T16:23:36Z ebrasca: Maybe you need to install libjavascriptcoregtk for macOS.
2019-12-12T16:23:37Z jmercouris: ebrasca: very possible that that is the problem, I belive the JS core is however functioning
2019-12-12T16:23:45Z jmercouris: I will look in the ports tree to make sure there is not a separate port for it
2019-12-12T16:25:23Z jmercouris: I have a very very strange layout in /opt/local/lib
2019-12-12T16:25:46Z jmercouris: I have a file: /opt/local/lib/webkit2gtk-4.0/injected-bundle/libwebkit2gtkinjectedbundle.so
2019-12-12T16:25:50Z jmercouris: no idea what an injected bundle is...
2019-12-12T16:26:32Z jmercouris: ebrasca: so basically you think should I install that shared lib, everything should work?
2019-12-12T16:27:02Z ebrasca: This is what I do with similar errors in my gentoo.
2019-12-12T16:27:54Z jmercouris: ok, thank you for the information
2019-12-12T16:28:02Z jmercouris: goodbye for now
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2019-12-12T21:32:29Z Agent69: omg Lisp?
2019-12-12T21:32:44Z no-defun-allowed: That's why we're here, yes.
2019-12-12T21:33:24Z Agent69: wondering what do you use it for?
2019-12-12T21:33:54Z luis: Agent69: money!
2019-12-12T21:34:11Z Agent69: nice
2019-12-12T21:34:27Z Agent69: what kind of projects do you make with it?
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2019-12-12T21:34:32Z Agent69: just curious
2019-12-12T21:37:54Z phoe: Agent69: work utils, libraries, I'm also working on a multiplayer storywriting service
2019-12-12T21:38:38Z Xach: websites, compilers, simulators
2019-12-12T21:38:57Z Shinmera: games
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2019-12-12T21:40:41Z luis: Agent69: a bunch of desktop GUI apps
2019-12-12T21:40:47Z Agent69: that's great
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2019-12-12T21:41:36Z phoe: inorite? I enjoy the language
2019-12-12T21:41:52Z Agent69: is there an official website where I can learn more about it?
2019-12-12T21:42:04Z jackdaniel: Agent69: common-lisp.net
2019-12-12T21:42:12Z jackdaniel: minion: tell Agent69 about pcl
2019-12-12T21:42:13Z minion: Agent69: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2019-12-12T21:42:15Z jackdaniel: minion: tell Agent69 about paip
2019-12-12T21:42:16Z minion: Agent69: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2019-12-12T21:42:47Z jackdaniel: Agent69: if I may ask: what brought your attention to Lisp?
2019-12-12T21:43:52Z phoe: Agent69: try Practical Common Lisp first, but take the second chapter with a grain of salt. It is meant to show you an overall flow of the language, so do not try to understand everything that is happening in there.
2019-12-12T21:46:29Z Agent69: jackdaniel: I saw Lisp long time ago when I used to work with Autocad 2008, a scripting language to make custom tools inside of Autocad
2019-12-12T21:46:46Z Agent69: I didn't know it still existed to be honest
2019-12-12T21:47:01Z Agent69: I thought it's something very ancient
2019-12-12T21:47:20Z phoe: in a way it is
2019-12-12T21:47:34Z phoe: the code written in the 1960s still works, after modifying the language a tiny bit
2019-12-12T21:48:13Z phoe: but then again, it's because Common Lisp - the dialect that we use over here - maintains some backwards compatibility with earlier dialects which in turn maintain some backwards compatibility with even earlier dialects which in turn maintain some backwards compatibility with McCarthy's LISP 1.5
2019-12-12T21:48:37Z jackdaniel: Agent69: thansk for explaining. Common Lisp is a standard from '94; there are multiple implementations which are actively developed
2019-12-12T21:48:38Z phoe: it's amusing, but also tends to be useful when you dig out code from twenty years ago that you just boot and run and it works
2019-12-12T21:49:10Z jackdaniel: one most frequently used is sbcl, then ccl, and after that comes abcl, ccl, clisp, cmucl and ecl
2019-12-12T21:49:15Z jackdaniel: from free software implementations
2019-12-12T21:49:34Z jackdaniel: there is also lispworks common lisp and allegro common lisp, but they are not open source
2019-12-12T21:49:38Z phoe: also what jackdaniel said - Common Lisp is alive and its implementations are alive, both commercial and free software ones
2019-12-12T21:50:19Z jackdaniel: there is also clasp which is actively developed
2019-12-12T21:50:32Z Agent69: good to hear that it's still actively maintained
2019-12-12T21:50:34Z phoe: the language does have that feel that's somewhere between anachronism and timelessness™
2019-12-12T21:50:38Z jackdaniel: (it is meant for interoperation with c++ and for programming molecules)
2019-12-12T21:51:31Z jackdaniel: Agent69: if you want to hear a cool presentation, look up "clasp" on youtube, drmeister is a very passionate lecturer
2019-12-12T21:51:54Z jackdaniel: (and there are work-in-progress implementations like sicl)
2019-12-12T21:54:05Z Agent69: thank you for the info
2019-12-12T21:54:22Z Agent69: will check out the video
2019-12-12T21:55:07Z pjb: Agent69: don't let you be misled by the late completion of the CL standard.  The language let you run lisp programs from the 60s.  See: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2019-12-12T21:55:29Z phoe: pjb: ha! I already mentioned that up above
2019-12-12T21:55:44Z phoe: but - Agent69: if you feel like learning, feel free to ask here or #clschool for support
2019-12-12T21:55:48Z pjb: phoe: yes, but you didn't quote the url.
2019-12-12T21:56:15Z phoe: pjb: oh, that's correct
2019-12-12T21:57:47Z pjb: Agent69: Assume you have to develop a X man.year system.  If you have the money to pay for  2X men to develop it in six months, you can use Kotlin or Swift. If you have money for X men, you can consider C or C++.  But if you're alone and it will take X years, better use CL which won't change in X years, so you won't have to rewrite your program each time a new version of the language is issued by people who only want to sell hardw
2019-12-12T21:57:47Z pjb: and who don't care about your needs.
2019-12-12T21:58:20Z pjb: What's the current version of Python already? 3.6? 3.8?
2019-12-12T21:59:30Z Agent69: good point but I think that applies only for big source code and software
2019-12-12T21:59:39Z phoe: Agent69: or for long-lived one
2019-12-12T22:00:54Z phoe: I personally grabbed the library from ftp://ftp.ai.mit.edu/pub/users/naha/WordNet/ and ported it to modern Common Lisp
2019-12-12T22:01:13Z phoe: it took writing an ASDF system definition since ASDF as a system manager didn't exist then
2019-12-12T22:01:49Z phoe: and porting it to a modern WordNet database file, since WordNet also evolved over time - namely, adding a field
2019-12-12T22:02:21Z phoe: and everything else just worked (other than MIT taking God damn four months to assign a MIT software license to this, c'mon what in the world would ever take so long)
2019-12-12T22:03:05Z phoe: and bam, https://github.com/phoe/wordnet
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2019-12-12T22:06:54Z Agent69: phoe: besides you are programming nerd, I see you make nice music too
2019-12-12T22:06:58Z Agent69: impressive
2019-12-12T22:08:06Z phoe: Agent69: not with Lisp though
2019-12-12T22:08:49Z Agent69: with what is if I may ask
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2019-12-12T22:12:23Z phoe invites him to #lispcafe
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2019-12-12T22:13:13Z Agent69: phoe: what OS do you use in your desktop PC?
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2019-12-12T22:15:07Z phoe invites him to #lispcafe, since that's the place where non-Common-Lisp discussion usually goes to
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2019-12-12T22:17:28Z Agent69: it was nice talking to you, thanks for the discussion
2019-12-12T22:17:29Z Agent69: bye
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2019-12-12T22:41:31Z equwal: About the TODO item "globally kill trailing whitespace" in your Ultraspec: you could use a perl one-liner to do that.
2019-12-12T22:41:58Z phoe: equwal: oh god the ultraspec
2019-12-12T22:42:11Z phoe: it's on my TODO list, I promise
2019-12-12T22:42:17Z phoe: along with way too many things
2019-12-12T22:42:34Z equwal: It has been on my mind for weeks!
2019-12-12T22:43:47Z phoe: :(
2019-12-12T22:43:57Z equwal: Maybe better advice is to modify the gitconfig setting so you don't make new trailing whitespace.
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2019-12-12T22:44:10Z no-defun-allowed needs to fix the NTH example implementation
2019-12-12T22:44:57Z equwal: whitespace = tab-in-indent,trailing-space
2019-12-12T22:46:25Z equwal: git config --global --replace-all core.whitespace "tab-in-indent,trailing-space"
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2019-12-13T01:08:51Z pjb: phoe: just use emacs! (add-hook 'before-save-hook 'delete-trailing-whitespace)
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2019-12-13T01:18:16Z Xach: How can I tell if a symbol names a type?
2019-12-13T01:18:48Z White_Flame: a specific type, or any type?
2019-12-13T01:19:53Z Xach: Any type.
2019-12-13T01:20:55Z White_Flame: the 2nd return value of subtypep might be worth looking into.  I haven't fully understood it
2019-12-13T01:21:51Z White_Flame: there's also DESCRIBE, again, for the non-programmatic version
2019-12-13T01:22:38Z Xach: White_Flame: thanks, that actually suggests a way to find the implementation-specific way to find it
2019-12-13T01:23:10Z Xach: I'm idly wondering if any symbol other than OTHERWISE is used so purely for syntax.
2019-12-13T01:23:22Z White_Flame: (loop do M-. until (knownp))
2019-12-13T01:23:23Z Xach: I guess lambda-list keywords fit in that
2019-12-13T01:23:54Z White_Flame: all the loop clause symbols
2019-12-13T01:24:07Z Xach: those aren't defined in the CL package
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2019-12-13T01:24:58Z Xach: from my arbitrary perspective, disqualified
2019-12-13T01:25:02Z Bike: there's not any conforming way to tell that something is a valid type specifier, as far as i know
2019-12-13T01:25:28Z Bike: i mean, in general. you can check whether it's a class name, of course
2019-12-13T01:25:45Z White_Flame: (typep t 'blarg) and catch "unknown type specifier" error :-P
2019-12-13T01:25:56Z Bike: not guaranteed
2019-12-13T01:26:00Z White_Flame: right
2019-12-13T01:27:09Z Bike: sbcl exposes typexpand, so you can see if something is defined by deftype
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2019-12-13T01:27:41Z Bike: but even if an implementation has that, it might have extra non-macro types as well, like sb-alien types
2019-12-13T01:27:54Z White_Flame drilled down to (sb-kernel:type-or-nil-if-unknown <type-specifier>)
2019-12-13T01:27:59Z Xach: Anyway, if I remove LLKWs, fbounds, bounds, and find-class values, the remaining CL symbols are easy enough to check individually.
2019-12-13T01:28:02Z Xach: White_Flame: thanks!
2019-12-13T01:28:07Z Bike: sbcl and ccl have specifier-type functions too
2019-12-13T01:29:43Z Xach: there's a fun class of symbols that are used only with DOCUMENTATION and nowhere else
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2019-12-13T01:30:13Z Xach: White_Flame: how does DESCRIBE identify standard declarations?
2019-12-13T01:30:14Z Bike: oh yeah, like variable
2019-12-13T01:31:23Z Bike: describe-declaration checks if it's one of the standard one, then checks sbcl's internal info table
2019-12-13T01:31:26Z Bike: apparently
2019-12-13T01:31:59Z Bike: sorry, no. i mean it has a hardcoded list of the standard ones, then of the sbcl ones, then of ones defined with (declaim (declaration ...))
2019-12-13T01:32:07Z Xach: heh
2019-12-13T01:32:11Z White_Flame: Xach: M-. :)
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2019-12-13T02:14:19Z Xach: https://gist.github.com/quicklisp/23728531bb61f9f47dc0d960ae62a45a has a bit of code that puts each symbol into symbol categories
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2019-12-13T02:18:31Z Bike: bah, i always forget about standard
2019-12-13T02:18:41Z Bike: so, what's the results for syntax-only symbols?
2019-12-13T02:19:04Z Bike: just otherwise.
2019-12-13T02:19:06Z Bike: dag
2019-12-13T02:23:35Z Xach: STANDARD is interesting too - the only thing that names a method combination and nothing else
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2019-12-13T03:13:15Z drmeister: ASDF is on gitlab.   I know how to fork projects on github, change them and submit pull requests.
2019-12-13T03:13:23Z drmeister: Is there such a thing for gitlab?
2019-12-13T03:13:49Z drmeister: I'd like to submit a pull request for a clasp specific change to ASDF
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2019-12-13T03:20:58Z Xach: drmeister: it's the same for gitlab
2019-12-13T03:21:30Z Xach: drmeister: if you are logged in, there's a "Fork" option in the upper right of https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf
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2019-12-13T03:26:14Z drmeister: Ah - I need to register with gitlab
2019-12-13T03:26:18Z drmeister: Thank you
2019-12-13T03:28:07Z Xach: No problem
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2019-12-13T04:04:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-13T04:18:21Z SaganMan: Morning beach
2019-12-13T04:18:31Z LdBeth: Hello
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2019-12-13T04:23:35Z equwal: Good morning beach!
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2019-12-13T05:55:37Z equwal: The streams interface strikes me as absurdly verbose.
2019-12-13T05:56:47Z equwal:  (with-open-stream (var (make-string-output-stream)) (get-output-stream-string var))
2019-12-13T05:57:12Z White_Flame: or, (with-output-to-string ....)
2019-12-13T05:58:38Z no-defun-allowed: Does the rest of CL not strike you as absurdly verbose?
2019-12-13T05:59:29Z equwal: No, but if we had things like define-backquotable-macro or define-function instead of defmacro/defun I would.
2019-12-13T06:02:47Z beach: equwal: As an implementer of Common Lisp, I very much appreciate how the Common Lisp HyperSpec is helping me figure out how to implement various standard features by specifying lower-level primitives for doing it.
2019-12-13T06:03:17Z beach: equwal: I think what you are seeing is that you are reading a specification meant for implementers and taking it to be a user guide.
2019-12-13T06:03:36Z White_Flame: still the immediate use case can be shrunk by using with-output-to-string
2019-12-13T06:03:51Z beach: equwal: White_Flame is right, the end user should use with-output-to-string instead.
2019-12-13T06:04:15Z equwal: beach: that is a good point about the implementation. I did notice how easy it was to accidentally define things like with-output-to-string.
2019-12-13T06:05:18Z beach: equwal: Yes, and in fact, I sometimes feel lost when the Common Lisp HyperSpec fails to give me hints about how things ought to be implemented. :)
2019-12-13T06:06:16Z White_Flame: and the opposite like here, when you find the low level bits, but didnt' notice the higher level helper stuff
2019-12-13T06:06:20Z beach: ... but I can see how the Common Lisp HyperSpec would be confusing to the application programmer, because it does not give hints about what features would be the preferred ones.
2019-12-13T06:06:44Z beach: White_Flame: Exactly!
2019-12-13T06:08:24Z beach: This is why we need a Common Lisp reference manual that is structured so that this information is explicit, with appropriate hints to application programmers and implementers.
2019-12-13T06:09:35Z equwal: I'm currently reading CLtL2, which I think it does a better job than the Hyperspec in this regard.
2019-12-13T06:09:52Z equwal: However, it still is definitively an implementor's manual.
2019-12-13T06:10:13Z beach: Sure.
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2019-12-13T06:11:28Z equwal: So how could I go about making a list of these functions (or functions for another purpose) in order of their level of abstraction?
2019-12-13T06:12:04Z beach: Not an easy task.  Read up a lot and ask here, I guess.
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2019-12-13T07:10:11Z ck_: you could start with elementary functions cons and build up a directed graph of 'uses' relations
2019-12-13T07:10:57Z ck_: I'm sure the Machine Learning community has lots of ideas on how to self-supervisedly learn the abstraction boundaries in the resulting graph. Maybe in the Cloud?
2019-12-13T07:11:08Z ck_: Something will have to be 'leveraged' as well.
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2019-12-13T07:19:32Z beach: ck_: I haven't thought about it much lately, but there is no such unique directed graph.  It can be constructed in several different ways.
2019-12-13T07:19:58Z beach: A trivial example, does FIRST use CAR, or is it the other way around?
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2019-12-13T07:20:25Z beach: Does FIND use LOOP?
2019-12-13T07:20:55Z beach: There is also the question of compile-time and run-time.
2019-12-13T07:21:15Z beach: FIND can use LOOP at run time and LOOP can use FIND at compile time.
2019-12-13T07:21:42Z White_Flame: IF and COND are another basic pair
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2019-12-13T07:21:58Z beach: In fact, SICL LOOP used MAKE-INSTANCE and other CLOS stuff at compile time.
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2019-12-13T07:40:39Z equwal: Yeah, I was thinking something really fuzzy. They cannot be rated very easily, but they are commensurable.
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2019-12-13T07:41:56Z equwal: Seeing how absurd it is, I feel that the question was not very good.
2019-12-13T07:42:52Z equwal: Good night beach,
2019-12-13T07:45:41Z beach: 'night equwal.
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2019-12-13T08:14:12Z ck_: beach: yes, I agree, that's why I said "a directed graph", not "the directed graph"
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2019-12-13T09:20:26Z LdBeth: I guess it’s like seeking “what could be the best practice”
2019-12-13T09:22:14Z LdBeth: Alternatively, “the only one exactly right way”
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2019-12-13T09:59:26Z beach: ck_: Ah, OK.
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2019-12-13T10:58:05Z earl-ducaine: A continuing ASDF frustration for me is trying to track down errors when loading a system. I get a message like "Package QT does not exist. Line: 1, Column: 12, File-Position: 12" But there seems to be no information what file generated it.
2019-12-13T10:58:31Z phoe: earl-ducaine: take a look at the restarts, there should be a pathname in there
2019-12-13T10:58:39Z earl-ducaine: I'm using quicklisp, and even when I switch :verbose t I can't find it.
2019-12-13T10:59:32Z earl-ducaine: These are my restarts: 0: [CONTINUE] Use the current package, COMMON-LISP-USER.
2019-12-13T10:59:32Z earl-ducaine:  1: [RETRY] Retry finding the package.
2019-12-13T10:59:32Z earl-ducaine:  2: [USE-VALUE] Specify a different package
2019-12-13T10:59:32Z earl-ducaine:  3: [UNINTERN] Read the symbol as uninterned.
2019-12-13T10:59:32Z earl-ducaine:  4: [SYMBOL] Specify a symbol to return
2019-12-13T10:59:33Z earl-ducaine:  5: [RETRY] Retry SLIME REPL evaluation request.
2019-12-13T10:59:35Z earl-ducaine:  6: [*ABORT] Return to SLIME's top level.
2019-12-13T10:59:37Z earl-ducaine:  7: [ABORT] abort thread (#<THREAD "repl-thread" RUNNING {10081D0263}>)
2019-12-13T10:59:47Z phoe: hm
2019-12-13T10:59:58Z phoe: what is the ASDF command that you issued?
2019-12-13T10:59:59Z earl-ducaine: Even hunting through the stack I can't find it.
2019-12-13T11:00:25Z phoe: or rather, what did you type in the REPL?
2019-12-13T11:00:27Z earl-ducaine: Of course I can use brute force and load each individual file until I find it...
2019-12-13T11:01:03Z earl-ducaine: (ql:quickload :clung)
2019-12-13T11:01:23Z phoe: is that system available anywhere on github?
2019-12-13T11:01:49Z earl-ducaine: No, it's a local one.
2019-12-13T11:02:02Z phoe: please post your stacktrace at https://plaster.tymoon.eu/, I'll have a look
2019-12-13T11:02:33Z earl-ducaine: Really my question is more general, since I can always figure this out. The question is: is there a way to run ASDF to get better debugging info.
2019-12-13T11:03:01Z earl-ducaine: And, why is the debugging information so poor in ASDF? At least the default info.
2019-12-13T11:03:01Z phoe: I am confused because I expected to see ASDF restarts in there
2019-12-13T11:03:08Z phoe: and I don't see them
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2019-12-13T11:03:15Z phoe: so my question is whether ASDF was actually invoked
2019-12-13T11:03:52Z phoe: there are the unknown-package restarts, and then the SLIME REPL restarts with nothing in between
2019-12-13T11:04:22Z earl-ducaine: It's clear god is punishing me for my lack of patience and perspective....
2019-12-13T11:04:39Z phoe: I can literally reproduce this by typing (qt:quickload :clung)
2019-12-13T11:04:56Z phoe: which is an ugly typo
2019-12-13T11:05:05Z earl-ducaine: yup.
2019-12-13T11:05:22Z phoe: do show me your stack then, I am curious why ASDF didn't put its restarts there
2019-12-13T11:05:36Z earl-ducaine: nothing to do with ASDF...
2019-12-13T11:05:50Z phoe: I am confused now
2019-12-13T11:06:27Z earl-ducaine: qt --> ql
2019-12-13T11:06:30Z phoe: ha!
2019-12-13T11:06:46Z phoe: well then, the error message is valid indeed
2019-12-13T11:07:04Z phoe: and ASDF is not to blame in that specific case
2019-12-13T11:07:14Z earl-ducaine: yup
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2019-12-13T11:14:25Z earl-ducaine: ASDF still drives me crazy with it's error handling. Currently it's genering an error, it issues an error but not a line number unless I abort.
2019-12-13T11:14:28Z earl-ducaine: But, since I proved my lack of good standing with my previous message, I'll have to hide my head and shame and suck it up.
2019-12-13T11:14:45Z phoe: not really
2019-12-13T11:15:10Z phoe: the fact that this was a silly typo proves nothing about ASDF's poor error handling
2019-12-13T11:15:32Z phoe: so if there's an actual issue with ASDF then please post it here
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2019-12-13T11:15:55Z phoe: and if you suspect that there's an ASDF issue then post it here anyway, in the worst case someone will point out another typo (;
2019-12-13T11:16:21Z phoe: the lisp world will become a bit better place either way
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2019-12-13T11:29:37Z tourjin: https://bpaste.net/show/N4Z5I  to my understanding it iterates n times adding k. is there a way to trace every changing n's sum of k's?
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2019-12-13T11:30:11Z earl-ducaine: The problem I've run into in the past is that there have been situations where I've had to individually load files to get the line number location of an error.
2019-12-13T11:30:17Z earl-ducaine: But, for example the problem that I just ran into was a warning which doesn't generate line information in SBCL either.
2019-12-13T11:30:31Z earl-ducaine: And ultimately that's the challenge: you have SBCL interacting with slime interacting with ASDF and most of the CL debugging infrastructure is implementation dependant.
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2019-12-13T11:31:23Z earl-ducaine: So, support is sort of the lowest common denominator.
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2019-12-13T11:39:08Z tourjin: as for above codes, block followed  after labels is local definition inside defun and last (temp n) initiates recursive excutions. do I understand correctly?
2019-12-13T11:39:44Z pjb: tourjin: some implementations allow you to TRACE inner functions, using a specifier such as (recursive-times temp); check the user manual of your implementation.
2019-12-13T11:39:57Z pjb: tourjin: otherwise you can use the cl-stepper.
2019-12-13T11:41:08Z pjb: tourjin: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp/stepper-notes.txt
2019-12-13T11:43:44Z pjb: clhs labels
2019-12-13T11:43:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2019-12-13T11:43:51Z pjb: tourjin: ^ this explains it all.
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2019-12-13T11:45:26Z pjb: tourjin: of course, you can always add a PRINT, it's the simpliest solution.
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2019-12-13T11:46:36Z tourjin: yes I started from there . labels. but having trouble trying to see every recursion values.
2019-12-13T11:48:17Z tourjin: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp/stepper-notes.txt this is far beyond my understanding. :-)
2019-12-13T11:53:50Z pjb: tourjin: see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/comp.lang.lisp$20cl-stepper/comp.lang.lisp/nj3jFxcJYM0/QbzGkAbyAtMJ for an example.
2019-12-13T11:54:30Z pjb: or https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.lang.lisp/50k86A63WJA/hMu30bPh6OsJ
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2019-12-13T12:02:15Z earl-ducaine: pjb: I'll try and atone for my moment of pique. Here's a slightly different but concrete example. https://gist.github.com/earl-ducaine/079d448e3c2b41a6bfb70a8b2e4c026c
2019-12-13T12:02:28Z earl-ducaine: pjb: If i load this using (ql:quickload :flavor :verbose t) as a local quicklisp project, it generates a load error and puts me into the interactive debugger. (listed: SLIME debug window)
2019-12-13T12:02:56Z earl-ducaine: pjb: But the only information the interactive debugger gives me is the file being loaded, not the function or line number.  If I try to view source, by pressing 'v' on any of the listed stack frames, I'm not given any useful information about the load.
2019-12-13T12:03:21Z earl-ducaine: pjb: If I look over at the SBCL repl I see a number of warnings. But I not told which one caused the load error.
2019-12-13T12:03:29Z phoe: earl-ducaine: this is because warnings are treated as errors
2019-12-13T12:03:37Z phoe: so I think that any warning is a full stop at this point
2019-12-13T12:03:48Z phoe: so, in a way, all of them caused ASDF to choke
2019-12-13T12:04:02Z phoe: all and any
2019-12-13T12:04:46Z earl-ducaine: :phoe But some warning are for sure not treated as errors, like unused variables.
2019-12-13T12:05:44Z earl-ducaine: :phoe So it's difficult to know what the minimal fix is to get a system to load.
2019-12-13T12:05:49Z phoe: earl-ducaine: um correct - all warnings except style-warnings
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2019-12-13T12:11:53Z earl-ducaine: But, my point isn't that ASDF, or slime, or swank, or SBCL are wrong, per se, but rather that the debug envirnoment when trying to troubleshoot system loadng can be quite confusing and not as helpful as one would like.
2019-12-13T12:12:47Z earl-ducaine: And my apologies, I meant to mention phoe: not pjd: in my previous message.
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2019-12-13T12:23:33Z phoe: earl-ducaine: yes, that is correct. And sad.
2019-12-13T12:23:45Z phoe: It could use some improvement and consistency.
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2019-12-13T12:44:09Z tourjin: <pjb> tourjin: of course, you can always add a PRINT, it's the simpliest solution. this was the only solution for now. thank you.
2019-12-13T12:46:23Z tourjin: but https://bpaste.net/show/NSEZO this code gives me every recursions
2019-12-13T12:46:42Z tourjin: while this does'nt. https://bpaste.net/show/ORYNA
2019-12-13T12:46:55Z tourjin: what's the difference?
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2019-12-13T13:07:03Z Kabriel: tourjin: recursive-times is not recursive; it is only called once.
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2019-12-13T13:23:08Z tourjin: kabriel I don't get it. https://bpaste.net/show/HUNFI this is not recursive?  I get 10 to 0 from princ . does'nt it mean it was executed 10 times?
2019-12-13T13:24:30Z Kabriel: look at the trace. I only see recursive-times called 1x (0: (recursive-times 1 10))
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2019-12-13T13:25:37Z Kabriel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2019-12-13T13:26:20Z Kabriel: Think about how you defined the function, and what it means to use labels.
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2019-12-13T13:43:32Z pjb: tourjin: temp is recursive. recursive-times is not.
2019-12-13T13:47:53Z tourjin: ok i see . that's why i can't trace inner iterations. recursive-times was called only once. thank you.
2019-12-13T13:48:16Z Xach: tourjin: tracing flet/labels is possible in some implementations
2019-12-13T13:48:18Z Xach: it has special syntax
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2019-12-13T13:50:16Z tourjin: I encounter error message from first line. cl-user> (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper)
2019-12-13T13:50:50Z pjb: tourjin: cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects ; git clone http://github.com/informatimago/lisp informatimago
2019-12-13T13:51:38Z vsync: huh, somehow I'm surprised/forgot EQL is only true for conses as EQ
2019-12-13T13:53:31Z tourjin: thank you all. but I'm using windows 10 . I only installed windows emacs sbcl. I have to search how I can use git in my OS.
2019-12-13T13:53:53Z jackdaniel: tourjin: install cygwin with git and profit ,)
2019-12-13T13:54:22Z flip214: tourjin: also look at portacle, perhaps that's easier to use
2019-12-13T13:54:25Z jackdaniel: it is not a demon of speed, but is better than clicking all over the place
2019-12-13T13:54:46Z pjb: tourjin: you can also download zips form github.
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2019-12-13T13:59:08Z tourjin: thank you all.
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2019-12-13T14:02:02Z tourjin: I found github desktop for windows10.
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2019-12-13T14:19:07Z ck_: tourjin: (jackdaniel:) I would say the git installation for windows (with git-bash included) is somehow superior to cygwin
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2019-12-13T14:19:40Z tourjin: yes I just intalled github desktop
2019-12-13T14:20:05Z tourjin: but I can't find where I type command
2019-12-13T14:20:28Z tourjin: cmd or powershell can't find git command.
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2019-12-13T14:24:55Z Kabriel: I don't use Windows, but I know some people that really like tortoise (https://tortoisegit.org/)
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2019-12-13T14:25:41Z nirved: tourjin: there should be "Git Shell" somewhere in the start menu
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2019-12-13T14:40:09Z tourjin: maybe git commands work on git not on github. I'll install git
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2019-12-13T14:57:02Z tourjin: is this all? just installing git ? now I see gitbash in the start menu. thank you nirved
2019-12-13T14:57:42Z tourjin: is git is similar to cvs?
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2019-12-13T15:00:29Z Xach: tourjin: yes.
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2019-12-13T15:02:35Z tourjin: ok thanks xach. I have another item to learn now. ha~
2019-12-13T15:03:32Z tourjin: pjb after I installed git  git clone http://github.com/informatimago/lisp informatimago worked . thanks.
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2019-12-13T15:17:00Z tourjin:  git clone https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago.git informatimago   I cloned this . if I'd like to uninstall it completely , what command will do that?
2019-12-13T15:17:59Z phoe: tourjin: you do sound like you need tutoring on some basic Linux and Git workflows
2019-12-13T15:18:13Z tourjin:  informatimago/
2019-12-13T15:18:14Z tourjin:  I see this under d:/home/quicklisp
2019-12-13T15:18:17Z phoe: maybe #clschool will be of some more assistance
2019-12-13T15:18:25Z tourjin: yes I must.
2019-12-13T15:18:31Z phoe: just delete the directory in that case
2019-12-13T15:18:48Z tourjin: ok thanks
2019-12-13T15:18:49Z phoe: git clone creates a directory with all the stuff for a given repository; to "uninstall" the repository, just delete its dir.
2019-12-13T15:19:11Z tourjin: thank you.
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2019-12-13T15:30:36Z katco: is there an idiom for iterating over multiple sequences at different rates? i can only think of using a recursive function.
2019-12-13T15:31:08Z jmercouris: katco: what do you mean at different rates? concurrently?
2019-12-13T15:31:45Z jayspeer: can anyone point me to good direction? I don't have much experience with common lisp. I'm trying to quickload "cube" project (common lisp kubernetes client), but I get stuck on alexandria.0.dev:read-stream-content-into-string. ALEXANDRIA.0.DEV does not exists, and ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0 does not have the symbol bound
2019-12-13T15:32:18Z katco: jmercouris:  yes, concurrently, so on one iteration i might move forward one slot in list `A`, but not at all in list `B`
2019-12-13T15:32:21Z jmercouris: jayspeer: are you able to quickload any other libraries?
2019-12-13T15:32:39Z jmercouris: katco: must the movement be synchronized? if not, you can use bordeaux threads
2019-12-13T15:32:58Z jmercouris: katco: if it must you can use loop to go through multiple sequences, I can't remember how though :\
2019-12-13T15:33:27Z katco: i want to do something like `(loop for i in list-foo if (pred) for j in list-bar do (foo))`
2019-12-13T15:33:46Z jmercouris: Ah, a nested loop!
2019-12-13T15:33:57Z jmercouris: why not just write exactly what you wrote above?
2019-12-13T15:34:02Z jmercouris: I guess I don't understand what the problem is
2019-12-13T15:34:27Z katco: that doesn't work, the `loop` macro doesn't allow `for` within an `if` block
2019-12-13T15:34:37Z jmercouris: ah, you just don't know the syntax
2019-12-13T15:34:38Z jmercouris: I see
2019-12-13T15:34:44Z katco: it's not quite a nested loop either
2019-12-13T15:34:50Z jmercouris: sure it is
2019-12-13T15:34:55Z jackdaniel: it isn't
2019-12-13T15:34:56Z jmercouris: instead of "if pred"
2019-12-13T15:34:57Z Bike: no, if you want to go through the lists at different rates you can't do that with loop
2019-12-13T15:35:01Z Bike: i mean, not directly
2019-12-13T15:35:05Z Bike: you can use for =
2019-12-13T15:35:06Z jackdaniel: katco: I'd write a macro based on DO
2019-12-13T15:35:17Z jmercouris: what he wrote in pseudocode is definitely not going through two lists at the SAME time
2019-12-13T15:35:19Z jayspeer: jmercouris: yeah, previous dependencies installed just fine
2019-12-13T15:36:02Z jmercouris: jayspeer: do you have perhaps an old QL dist?
2019-12-13T15:36:12Z jayspeer: I just installed it :)
2019-12-13T15:36:14Z katco: jmercouris: not a he, but anyway: two lists at the same time, but one of them conditionally, so, what everyone else is saying, different rate
2019-12-13T15:36:34Z jayspeer: jmercouris: there is alexandria, but not 0.dev version
2019-12-13T15:36:39Z Bike: you can do this with the iterate macro's generators, or do something yourself, prolly
2019-12-13T15:36:40Z jmercouris: I still don't see how that is two lists at the same time, but if they help you, then that should be enough
2019-12-13T15:36:53Z jmercouris: jayspeer: you may manually download it and place it in a place where asdf can find it then
2019-12-13T15:36:59Z katco: Bike: i considered manually unrolling the list, but that seemed cumbersome
2019-12-13T15:37:02Z jmercouris: jayspeer: you can use the local projects directory
2019-12-13T15:37:41Z Bike: well, you'll have to do something like that under the hood, eventually
2019-12-13T15:37:44Z Bike: pop the list or whatnot
2019-12-13T15:38:22Z katco: Bike: i think recursion seems cleaner than that? just conditionally `cdr` the parameters?
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2019-12-13T15:38:50Z Bike: it works out the same
2019-12-13T15:40:15Z Xach: jlarocco:
2019-12-13T15:40:54Z Xach: jayspeer: "cube" is using an old interface that has been updated recently
2019-12-13T15:41:39Z jayspeer: Xach: Can you point me to a solution?
2019-12-13T15:42:28Z Xach: jayspeer: I'll check it out
2019-12-13T15:42:38Z katco: jmercouris: hopefully this helps: here's more "complete" (but woefully invalid) pseudocode: `(loop for i in '(1 2 3) if (evenp i) for j in '(1 2 3) collect (* i j))` i would expect to see `(1 4 6)`, not `(1 4 9)` nor, `((1 2 3) (2 4 6) (3 6 9))` (which would be a nested loop)
2019-12-13T15:43:04Z katco: thanks for the advice, all
2019-12-13T15:43:44Z katco: Xach: hey, i queried you awhile ago about submitting bug reports to zs3. i'll be doing some work with it in the new year, so just a heads-up again :)
2019-12-13T15:44:07Z jmercouris: katco: ah, I see now
2019-12-13T15:44:26Z Xach: jayspeer: update the reference to alexandria.0.dev to just alexandria, or the new versioned package name.
2019-12-13T15:44:57Z Xach: katco: excellent!
2019-12-13T15:45:45Z katco: Xach: one thing that may be more of a conversation: are there any plans for multi-part uploads so i don't have to store large files in memory before streaming up?
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2019-12-13T15:47:34Z jayspeer: Xach: it worked, thank you :)
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2019-12-13T15:54:36Z drmeister: I registered with gitlab and I can see a "Fork" button on the asdf/asdf project - but it is greyed out and I cannot activate it.
2019-12-13T15:54:56Z drmeister: I jumped through all the registration hoops that were put in front of me - is there one more?
2019-12-13T15:55:19Z drmeister: I've contacted flip214 (suggested by stassats) to solicit his advice about this.
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2019-12-13T15:55:34Z drmeister: Would anyone else know what I need to do to be able to fork ASDF?
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2019-12-13T15:55:44Z drmeister doesn't like grey buttons.
2019-12-13T15:55:54Z phoe: drmeister: gitlab.common-lisp.net?
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2019-12-13T15:56:31Z Xach: katco: I think it is a good idea but I won't be working on it any time soon
2019-12-13T15:56:38Z phoe: if yes, then poke ehuelsmann on #common-lisp.net and ask him to bump up your repository limit - the last time I remember this happening, it was because of that
2019-12-13T15:57:12Z katco: Xach: understood, thank you. with proper issues/agreement, are you open to patches?
2019-12-13T15:57:44Z drmeister only likes grey buttons in minecraft.
2019-12-13T15:57:53Z Xach: katco: yes. to me that means following the conventions of the surrounding code and writing good documentation. the documentation is plain old html. (i have emacs code to make it easier and can share if it helps.)
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2019-12-13T15:58:20Z drmeister: We have decided to use directories as fasl files in Clasp to support debug info on macOS and ASDF currently is hardcoded to only allow fasl files to be files.
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2019-12-13T15:58:39Z drmeister: phoe: Yes - https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf
2019-12-13T15:58:45Z katco: Xach: i would certainly endeavor to do that
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2019-12-13T15:58:59Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/vinVDuCW/image.png
2019-12-13T15:59:08Z drmeister: Note the sad shade of grey of the "Fork" button.
2019-12-13T15:59:16Z drmeister: BRB - moving between trains.
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2019-12-13T16:04:23Z Xach: katco: if i had time, i'd try to add all the new things in S3
2019-12-13T16:04:55Z Xach: Someone also complained in a blog that it doesn't support async operation (but never mentioned it to me) - I'd love to make the processing components async-agnostic at least.
2019-12-13T16:05:25Z phoe: drmeister: file a formal complaint on channel #common-lisp.net then
2019-12-13T16:06:02Z katco: Xach: i empathize with the time dilemma! i'll try and do what i can within the bounds of my project
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2019-12-13T16:06:46Z katco: i could easily spend my entire work day contributing back to open source. but alas, not enough time in the day :(
2019-12-13T16:06:51Z phoe: minion: tell phoe about equal
2019-12-13T16:06:51Z minion: phoe: direct your attention towards equal: identity, equality (eq, eql, equal, equalp) and copying are explained at http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html and in http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
2019-12-13T16:07:50Z phoe: minion: thanks
2019-12-13T16:07:50Z minion: np
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2019-12-13T16:51:25Z drmeister: phoe: Thank you - I will chat on #common-lisp.net
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2019-12-13T17:01:51Z drmeister: The folks on #common-lisp.net were very helpful.  I've transcended to forkable status.
2019-12-13T17:02:40Z drmeister is a somebody now.
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2019-12-13T17:04:57Z phoe: you have achieved enforkeability
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2019-12-13T17:07:36Z drmeister: A question on style...   In ASDF they have...   (let ((source (ensure-pathname source :namestring :lisp :ensure-physical t :want-file t)) ... )
2019-12-13T17:08:08Z drmeister: For Clasp we want to use directories as fasl files and so I would suggest:
2019-12-13T17:08:29Z drmeister: (let ((source (ensure-pathname source :namestring :lisp :ensure-physical t #-clasp :want-file #-clasp t)) ...)
2019-12-13T17:08:55Z drmeister: But there are other ways to achieve this - is what I just pasted a reasonable suggestion for ASDF?
2019-12-13T17:09:41Z drmeister: This change has the effect that I'm looking for - it allows directories to be fasls.  Without the change I get an error in ensure-pathname.
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2019-12-13T17:25:12Z Xach: drmeister: i'd be inclined to make it more general - what if some other implementation wants to use directories as well?
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2019-12-13T17:31:56Z beach: Was it Xof who wrote a paper about how to handle reader conditionals?
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2019-12-13T17:34:30Z drmeister: Xach: Perhaps - I'll not presume and let the ASDF developers suggest changes.
2019-12-13T17:34:34Z drmeister: I submitted this:
2019-12-13T17:34:34Z drmeister: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/merge_requests/128
2019-12-13T17:36:54Z drmeister: Xach: I followed up with a comment including your suggestion.
2019-12-13T17:36:55Z _death: beach: maybe you're referring to https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Maintaining-Portable-Lisp-Programs-It's-a-bug%2C-not-Rhodes/f15969cac9f5442522bc9c661c25e22337aa84e7
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2019-12-13T17:37:50Z wsinatra: By chance is anyone here familiar with building SBCL on musl libc systems?
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2019-12-13T17:39:18Z drmeister: That paper is completely irrelevant to me because I'm suggesting using #-  :-)
2019-12-13T17:39:40Z drmeister ducks
2019-12-13T17:40:03Z phoe: wsinatra: maybe #sbcl will have someone
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2019-12-13T17:40:29Z wsinatra: I thought to just jump there initially, but figured it wouldn't hurt to ask before bothering the devs :)
2019-12-13T17:41:19Z phoe: drmeister: one tiny variation I know of is (... #-clasp #-clasp :want-file t)
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2019-12-13T17:43:03Z drmeister: phoe: Ooooooh - interesting.
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2019-12-13T17:44:35Z phoe: the first time I saw this notation I thought it's a bug
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2019-12-13T17:44:39Z _death: you need more lookahead/lookbehind :)
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2019-12-13T17:48:41Z Xach: I've seen that construct fail on some lisps despite personally being persuaded that it is spec-legal
2019-12-13T17:48:48Z _death: you can just do the check at runtime and not need any reader conditionals.. or you can use one reader conditionals for the want-file valoue
2019-12-13T17:48:59Z Xach: no personal conviction of mine will make a lisp accept something it does not want to accept!
2019-12-13T17:49:03Z _death: *conditional, value
2019-12-13T17:50:07Z Xach writes Hans Huebner about reviving @planet_lisp tweets
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2019-12-13T17:50:59Z _death: maybe just dropping want-file would be a good idea
2019-12-13T17:51:42Z jackdaniel: #-clasp #-clasp :want-file t -- is it (#-clasp #-clasp) (:want-file t) or #-clasp (#-clasp :want-file) t
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2019-12-13T17:54:00Z william1: Is anyone working on anything lispy that I can have a read of?
2019-12-13T17:54:36Z william1: Trying to learn cl to stretch my programming brain :)
2019-12-13T17:54:47Z Xach: william1: i think cl-ppcre has some interesting code to read
2019-12-13T17:54:48Z jackdaniel: minion: tell william1 about paip
2019-12-13T17:54:48Z minion: william1: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2019-12-13T17:55:05Z jackdaniel: william1: ^ this book has very interesting case studies in common lisp
2019-12-13T17:55:14Z william1: Thanks :)
2019-12-13T17:55:15Z Xach: it does a useful thing that is probably familiar, and does it with both very good performance and readable code
2019-12-13T17:55:21Z william1: I love Norvig
2019-12-13T17:55:25Z william1: He's such a dude
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2019-12-13T18:25:40Z pjb: phoe: in my time, code was precious.  You can't imagine the lengths we went to get some and collect it!  Collecting any strip of paper tape, even buggy ones. Buying reviews, and typing it back from listing, spending hours on 300 b/s modems to collect it in chunks and cat'ing back tar files, filling dearly bought floppies.   Nowadays, it's just throwable. You git clone, and then rm -rf it! :-(
2019-12-13T18:25:55Z pjb: Without even reading it…
2019-12-13T18:27:11Z pjb: drmeister: perhaps you need to log-in in addition to registering?
2019-12-13T18:28:53Z oni-on-ion: yeah =( =( its become factory work now too.  art form passed =(
2019-12-13T18:29:32Z jackdaniel: prawdziwyyych, cyganów, już niee ma ,-)
2019-12-13T18:30:30Z jackdaniel: there are plenty of hackers, no worries. it is just a number of people writing code grows faster (due to market deamand and education strategy)
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2019-12-13T18:31:31Z jackdaniel: admittedly #lispcafe topic, sorry
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2019-12-13T18:41:02Z drmeister: pjb: Everything is fine now - thank you.
2019-12-13T18:42:02Z pjb: drmeister: good. I've been watching some videos of train wrecks, so I was worried.  There seem to be quite a surprising number of train accidents…
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2019-12-13T19:03:00Z phoe: pjb: what does your comment refer to? I lost context
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2019-12-13T19:07:55Z pjb: phoe: tourjin deleting informatimago.
2019-12-13T19:12:18Z phoe: pjb: oh. Yes, the times have changed, and code versions are a commodity now thanks to ubiquitous source control, storage, and bandwidth.
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2019-12-13T19:13:01Z phoe: And as much as I understand (and somewhat share) the nostalgia, I do not want the past state of matters to return.
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2019-12-13T19:16:34Z pjb: phoe: there's another aspect to it: the Internet, or at least github, may not be there forever.
2019-12-13T19:17:09Z pjb: or if there, they will be under different forms, with more political control and censure.
2019-12-13T19:17:40Z pjb: So I would strongly advocate for local copies.
2019-12-13T19:17:52Z _death: well, they plan on storing a snapshot in some iglu
2019-12-13T19:18:04Z pjb: You cannot rely on archive.org for everything
2019-12-13T19:18:05Z phoe: pjb: that's another matter, and you are correct about it.
2019-12-13T19:18:21Z jackdaniel: ; --> #lispcafe
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2019-12-13T19:57:30Z pfdietz: There is a certain industrial excitement to trawling over large code bases with automated tooling.
2019-12-13T19:57:59Z copec: What sort of automated tooling?
2019-12-13T19:58:24Z copec: I would like to know how to familiarize myself with large code bases, better.
2019-12-13T19:58:27Z pfdietz: In my case, it was extracting code fragments from all the software in quicklisp to construct random compiler tests.
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2019-12-13T19:58:50Z copec: I see.
2019-12-13T19:59:09Z copec: Are you the one that posted the tests on the clasp github wiki?
2019-12-13T19:59:11Z pfdietz: (and also tossing in many other public Common Lisp sources I could find)
2019-12-13T19:59:19Z pfdietz: No?
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2019-12-13T20:00:50Z copec: Oh, not the pages I was thinking about: https://github.com/clasp-developers/clasp/wiki/pfdietz-ansi-tests-in-clasp
2019-12-13T20:01:21Z pfdietz: I just wrote that test suite :)
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2019-12-13T20:06:39Z Bike: clhs ~s
2019-12-13T20:06:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cdb.htm
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2019-12-13T21:15:38Z Xach: Hmm, is a missing domestic library the opposite of a missing foreign library?
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2019-12-14T00:14:27Z pjb: Depends on whether you wnat to use the library at the Department of Internal Affairs, or at the Department of State…
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2019-12-14T00:28:35Z jasom: I think a *found* domestic library would be the opposite of a missing foreign library
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2019-12-14T01:01:53Z White_Flame: (let ((*found* nil)) ... muhahaha)
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2019-12-14T05:17:44Z smokeink: so what do you guys think of this http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/format-stinks.html
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2019-12-14T05:24:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-12-14T05:25:28Z phadthai: I don't think removing format from the language is realistic, but I did use other things that are more like templates as well, CL nicely allowing it
2019-12-14T05:25:52Z phadthai: hello beach
2019-12-14T05:30:02Z aeth: I don't use FORMAT that much, but I don't have to. Unless you're doing FORMAT NIL you can just mix and match whatever you want to write to a stream, and I find that that leads to clearer code, personally.
2019-12-14T05:30:49Z aeth: (format stream "Hello, ~A!~%") (write-line "Isn't this great?" stream) (terpri stream)
2019-12-14T05:31:06Z aeth: oops, left out name in the FORMAT, but you got the idea
2019-12-14T05:31:35Z equwal: Good morning beach!
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2019-12-14T05:41:58Z beach: _death: Yes, I think that's the one.
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2019-12-14T05:55:06Z smokeink: can describe be configured what info to display? in sbcl (describe 'symbol) doesn't show whether a symbol is external or not
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2019-12-14T05:59:34Z smokeink: (defmethod describe-object ((s symbol) stream) ; seems to work
2019-12-14T05:59:40Z phadthai: yes describe-object is a generic function
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2019-12-14T06:07:55Z beach: Except you are not allowed to replace methods specialized to standard classes.
2019-12-14T06:10:00Z beach: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2019-12-14T06:10:00Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
2019-12-14T06:10:17Z beach: See item 19.
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2019-12-14T06:11:04Z smokeink: saw it. Well, what can happen if I violate this rule?
2019-12-14T06:11:48Z smokeink: I don't do it in the app , just in my temporary development environment
2019-12-14T06:13:59Z beach: You can do what you want.  I am just pointing it out.
2019-12-14T06:14:20Z smokeink: ok , thanks and I'll be careful
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2019-12-14T06:43:37Z smokeink: https://www.xach.com/rpw3/articles/BJqdnd9R65ee3qDbnZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d%40speakeasy.net.html  (defun ap (string &optional package)    ; be more liberal about 2nd arg        <-  what's the use of this small utility? How is it "more liberal" than the regular apropos ?
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2019-12-14T07:42:16Z phoe: smokeink: shorter name. I have no idea about the second arg.
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2019-12-14T07:44:27Z no-defun-allowed: Looks like it is trying to avoid calling (apropos <string> nil).
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2019-12-14T07:50:39Z phoe: the latter is valid though, as described in clhs apropos
2019-12-14T07:52:01Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah.
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2019-12-14T08:00:10Z equwal: for key being each hash-key in hash-table using (hash-value value)
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2019-12-14T10:25:51Z Posterdati: hi
2019-12-14T10:26:15Z Posterdati: is (unsigned-byte 8) equivalent to (integer 0 *) ?
2019-12-14T10:26:42Z no-defun-allowed: No, the former is equivalent to (integer 0 255) if I'm not mistaken.
2019-12-14T10:26:50Z Posterdati: ok
2019-12-14T10:27:09Z Posterdati: seems not
2019-12-14T10:32:03Z Posterdati: :(
2019-12-14T10:32:58Z smokeink: is there a better way of doing this? http://pastecode.ru/280189/
2019-12-14T10:33:38Z beach: Posterdati: What is it that seems not?
2019-12-14T10:34:07Z beach: Posterdati: (unsigned-byte 8) and (integer 0 255) are equivalent.
2019-12-14T10:34:54Z beach: Posterdati: You can check that by doing (subtypep '(unsigned-byte 8) '(integer 0 255)) and then the same thing with the arguments reversed.
2019-12-14T10:34:56Z Posterdati: not for typep
2019-12-14T10:35:12Z beach: What did you do?
2019-12-14T10:35:54Z Posterdati: (defparameter *test-array* (make-array 4 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-contents '(1 2 3 4)))
2019-12-14T10:36:28Z Posterdati: CL-USER> (typep (array-element-type *test-array*) '(integer 0 255))
2019-12-14T10:36:28Z Posterdati: NIL
2019-12-14T10:36:49Z MichaelRaskin: Shouldn't you use subtypep ?
2019-12-14T10:37:26Z Posterdati: ah ok, thanks
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2019-12-14T10:42:39Z Posterdati: anyway: CL-USER> (subtypep (type-of *test-array*) '(simple-array (integer 0 *) (*)))
2019-12-14T10:42:40Z Posterdati: NIL
2019-12-14T10:42:40Z Posterdati: T
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2019-12-14T10:46:18Z MichaelRaskin: http://dpaste.com/0F7F3YZ
2019-12-14T10:46:47Z MichaelRaskin: The difference between 255 and * matters
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2019-12-14T10:47:34Z MichaelRaskin: A 8-bit-integer array cannot be used to store bignums, after all
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2019-12-14T10:48:34Z Posterdati: how can I specify a variable bit (unsigned-byte *) ?
2019-12-14T10:48:47Z Posterdati: the array could be n bit long
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2019-12-14T10:49:28Z MichaelRaskin: (typep (make-array 4 :element-type '(unsigned-byte *) :initial-contents '(1 2 3 4)) '(SIMPLE-ARRAY (integer 0 *) (*))) ; --> T
2019-12-14T10:53:44Z smokeink: had to patch it a bit https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/target-thread.lisp#L1461    http://pastecode.ru/280189/
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2019-12-14T11:00:29Z Posterdati: MichaelRaskin: ok, thanks
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2019-12-14T11:24:14Z beach: Posterdati: That won't be a specialized array though.
2019-12-14T11:24:31Z beach: Posterdati: What is it that you are trying to do.
2019-12-14T11:26:23Z beach: So you can also write (TYPEP (MAKE-ARRAY 4 :ELEMENT-TYPE '(UNSIGNED-BYTE *) :INITIAL-CONTENTS '(1 2 3 4)) '(SIMPLE-ARRAY T))
2019-12-14T11:26:29Z beach: And it will also return T.
2019-12-14T11:27:38Z beach: And that's because (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte *)) is T.
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2019-12-14T12:56:58Z pjb: smokeink: perhaps the author found an implementaion where apropos expected a package, instead of nil or a package designator  (note that nil is a package designator for a package named "NIL"…)
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2019-12-14T13:00:14Z pjb: APROPOS is specified so it's impossible to select only symbols in a package named "NIL".
2019-12-14T13:00:57Z pjb: So I would have implemented an AP that would have dealt better with this situation instead…
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2019-12-14T13:15:23Z pjb: Posterdati: (make-array dimensions :element-type `(unsigned-byte ,n) :initial-element 0) will make you an array of elements of n bits.
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2019-12-14T13:19:45Z Posterdati: pjb: thanks
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2019-12-14T13:21:43Z pjb: Posterdati: For example: (let* ((elements (loop repeat 10 collect (random 1024))) (n (reduce 'max elements :key (lambda (x) (ceiling (log x 2)))))) (values (make-array (length elements) :element-type `(unsigned-byte ,n) :initial-contents elements) n)) #| --> #(997 899 788 132 783 817 807 778 631 262) ; 10 |#
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2019-12-14T13:36:16Z beach: Posterdati: Did you see what I wrote about specialized arrays?
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2019-12-14T13:41:01Z Posterdati: beach: yes
2019-12-14T13:44:46Z beach: I don't know the reason why you are doing what you are doing, but you might have some surprises if you think that the array element type will be (integer 0) when that is the type you give to make-array.
2019-12-14T13:46:51Z beach: (subtypep (make-array 4 :element-type '(integer 0)) '(integer 0)) => NIL, T
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2019-12-14T13:49:32Z Posterdati: I do not think that the elements of the array were (integer 0)
2019-12-14T13:49:46Z Posterdati: I asked if they were like (integer 0 *)
2019-12-14T13:50:53Z beach: That's the same type.
2019-12-14T13:51:03Z beach: *sigh*
2019-12-14T13:51:04Z pjb: (subtypep (array-element-type (make-array 4 :element-type '(integer 0))) '(integer 0)) #| --> nil ; t |#
2019-12-14T13:51:04Z pjb: (subtypep (array-element-type (make-array 4 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) '(unsigned-byte 8))
2019-12-14T13:51:09Z pjb:  #| --> t ; t |#
2019-12-14T13:51:18Z pjb: it depends on the type AND on the implementation.
2019-12-14T13:52:11Z pjb: for example, (subtypep (array-element-type (make-array 4 :element-type (quote (unsigned-byte 4)))) (quote (unsigned-byte 4))) returns NIL in abcl, ccl, and ecl, but T in clisp and sbcl.
2019-12-14T13:52:45Z jackdaniel: (integer 0) is unlikely to have a specialized representation because it is unknown how many bytes one field should reserve
2019-12-14T13:53:03Z beach: Posterdati: If you insist (subtypep (make-array 4 :element-type '(integer 0 *)) '(integer 0 *)) => NIL, T
2019-12-14T13:53:48Z beach: jackdaniel: That's what I am trying to tell Posterdati, but I don't think my message is clear.
2019-12-14T13:54:20Z pjb: You never know when somebody will write an implementation where integers are better represened than other objects and where arrays can store integers in a specialized array.
2019-12-14T13:54:39Z pjb: Again that is not the point. The point is the semantics of the conforming application.
2019-12-14T13:55:02Z pjb: The rest is the problem of the implementation and implementer, and we don't care if they are not able to optimize our application specific case.
2019-12-14T13:55:20Z pjb: We'll just choose an implementation that is better able to deal with our conforming code…
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2019-12-14T13:58:56Z loke: Is it legal for a Lisp implementation to limit the size of an integer?
2019-12-14T13:59:29Z loke: (I mean, there is always a limit in the amount of available memory, but can you have a conforming implementation where integer and fixnum are the same?
2019-12-14T13:59:45Z jackdaniel: no, I've said it is unlikely that arbitrary integer will have specialized array representation
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2019-12-14T14:00:03Z pjb: loke: IIRC, they must be distinct, but integer could be quite limited.
2019-12-14T14:00:06Z jackdaniel: but bignums are obligatory in conforming implementation
2019-12-14T14:00:30Z loke: Right. But there is no minimum size of a bignum?
2019-12-14T14:00:41Z jackdaniel: minimum?
2019-12-14T14:00:45Z pjb: We could have 16-bit fixnums and 64-bit bignums.
2019-12-14T14:00:47Z jackdaniel: " The type bignum is defined to be exactly (and integer (not fixnum)). "
2019-12-14T14:00:49Z jackdaniel: from the spec
2019-12-14T14:00:54Z loke: Yeah. I mean could a bignum be limited to, say, 65 bits?
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2019-12-14T14:01:13Z pjb: System Class INTEGER: An integer is a mathematical integer. There is no limit on the magnitude of an integer.
2019-12-14T14:02:17Z jackdaniel: the only limit is the memory available. I suppose one could decide, that bignum has tops 65 bits and signal serious-condition that storage is exhausted, but that would be lame :)
2019-12-14T14:02:33Z loke: But then a conforming implementation could exist which doesn't actually have a bignum implementtation. The type would exist, but there would be no way to obtain an instance of such type.
2019-12-14T14:02:54Z pjb: So probably a hard limit such as 64-bit or 128-bit would not be acceptable.  What "There is no limit on the magnitude of an integer." must mean, is that the actual limit should be a function of the memory size available.
2019-12-14T14:03:01Z loke: There is nothing that says that (1+ MAX-POSITIVE-FIXNUM) must succeed?
2019-12-14T14:03:28Z pjb: loke: only if your system only has 16 bits of memory.
2019-12-14T14:04:09Z pjb: Now, the maximum integer size can be a small or very small fraction of the memory. But it must still be more or less proportional to it.
2019-12-14T14:04:46Z loke: pjb: I agree that that is clearly the spirit of the standard.
2019-12-14T14:04:49Z pjb: If you use generational GC, (/ memory-size (* ngen 2)) at most.
2019-12-14T14:06:04Z loke is getting flashbacks from my argument on the SBCL list about the guarantees of SORT, where SBCL's position can only be maintined with a _very_ literal reading of the spec but was clearly against its spirit
2019-12-14T14:06:09Z pjb: But nothing prevents the implementation to have more overhead. (/ (- memory-size some-gigabyes) (* ngen 2 some-factor)) such as the maximum integer size could be in the 10,000 bits…  But I would expect it to be above 2Kbit at least.
2019-12-14T14:09:28Z pjb: Or for example, that integer size must increment by a small amount, such as one word.  bigint sizes could be exponents of 2.
2019-12-14T14:11:03Z Bike: really? what's ambiguous about sort?
2019-12-14T14:11:44Z loke: Bike: look up the spec and tell me if SORT on a vector is guaranteed to modify the array in-place, or if the implementation is allowed to allocate a new array and return it.
2019-12-14T14:12:04Z Bike: oh, the latter.
2019-12-14T14:12:14Z Bike: doesn't sbcl destroy it?
2019-12-14T14:12:24Z loke: Yes, I agree. And there are even examples in the spec that explains that literally says so.
2019-12-14T14:12:57Z Bike: but i don't understand what you mean by sbcl's position - it's certainly allowed for sort to always destroy its argument.
2019-12-14T14:13:15Z loke: But the SBCL guys insist it's guaranteed, and the argument about the example is waved away with the argument that the notes section are not normative
2019-12-14T14:13:48Z Bike: but i mean, even if it's allowed to not destroy it, sbcl can just decide not to make use of that latitude
2019-12-14T14:14:04Z loke: Bike: Allowed, yes. But SBCL argues that it's gunarteed (SBCL used to emit a warning when you didn't read the return value of SORT, but they removed it with the argument that it's gunarteed by the spec)
2019-12-14T14:14:18Z Bike: oh, i see.
2019-12-14T14:14:36Z loke: I found that to be odd, since the spec explicitly says that it's allowed to copy.
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2019-12-14T14:15:05Z jackdaniel: where does it say that it is allowed to copy?
2019-12-14T14:15:15Z Bike: well it's not that explicit, it just says sorting "can be" destructive, which kind of implies it doesn't have to be.
2019-12-14T14:15:16Z jackdaniel: (examples are not normative!)
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2019-12-14T14:15:37Z loke: jackdaniel: yeah, but nothing else says it it _must_ be destructive.
2019-12-14T14:15:43Z Bike: oh,wait, the notes also say the result might not be identical to the argument.
2019-12-14T14:15:45Z loke: At least by my reading.
2019-12-14T14:15:59Z Bike: for a vector, anywhoozle
2019-12-14T14:16:06Z loke: Right
2019-12-14T14:16:45Z Bike: clhs 12.1.3.1
2019-12-14T14:16:46Z specbot: Rule of Unbounded Rational Precision: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/12_aca.htm
2019-12-14T14:16:49Z Bike: for you, loke
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2019-12-14T14:17:05Z loke: I see
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2019-12-14T14:17:46Z loke: Interesting... "the usual sense". SO I guess an implementation that hard crashes when overflowing a fixnum woul dbe technically compliant (albeit a bit useless)
2019-12-14T14:17:53Z Bike: this doesn't rule out signalling an error on (1+ most-positive-fixnum), i don't think
2019-12-14T14:18:10Z jackdaniel: I don't think that hard crashes are conforming ,)
2019-12-14T14:18:16Z jackdaniel: I'd expect a storage-condition being signalled
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2019-12-14T14:23:13Z pjb: Yes, it says that you can get an out-of-memory condition, but not an overflow-error or integer-too-big (unless integer-too-big is a subclass of out-of-memory).
2019-12-14T14:23:14Z _death: were any implementations submitted to storage stress tests
2019-12-14T14:23:34Z pjb: _death: somebody tried it a few year ago, with results in cll.
2019-12-14T14:23:47Z pjb: It would have to be included as an annex to ansi-test…
2019-12-14T14:24:16Z pjb: Most implementations just crash, so it's not something that can be tested entirely from within the lisp image.
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2019-12-14T14:24:53Z pjb: Also, it's dependent on the memory size, so to test it well, you need both a lot of memory, and a way to restrict the memory allocated to the implementation.
2019-12-14T14:25:03Z pjb: ie. you may have to use VMs.
2019-12-14T14:25:21Z _death: well sbcl can often run out of dynamic space and end up in the debugger
2019-12-14T14:25:45Z pjb: That's the worse: the process doesn't exit, but is hung in the debugger.  How a controlling process can detect it?
2019-12-14T14:25:58Z pjb: s/e/t
2019-12-14T14:26:34Z _death: if that's important then you should --disable-debugger
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2019-12-14T14:27:04Z _death: but I didn't check if a storage-condition is signaled
2019-12-14T14:30:29Z _death: (I mean "often" as in, there's a cycle of developing, getting hit by it, tweaking dynamic space size.. in production the gc seems to do ok if enough RAM is available)
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2019-12-14T16:53:43Z tarod16: hi
2019-12-14T16:54:18Z tarod16: Do you know vms14?
2019-12-14T16:54:51Z beach: vms14 comes here regularly.  Why?
2019-12-14T16:57:57Z tarod16: I want to contact him
2019-12-14T16:58:45Z boeg: If I have a function `(defun test (alst) (let ((name (assoc 'name alst))) (print name)))`, why can't I do `(test '((name . "Bob")))` and have it print out "(NAME . "Bob")" when I can do `(assoc 'name '((name . "Bob")))` and it returns "(NAME . "Bob")" as expected?
2019-12-14T16:59:09Z boeg: The function just prints out "NIL"
2019-12-14T16:59:25Z tarod16: Can you guys tell to vms14 that I was here?
2019-12-14T17:00:02Z beach: minion: memo for vms14: tarod16 was here looking for you.
2019-12-14T17:00:02Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell vms14 when he/she/it next speaks.
2019-12-14T17:00:03Z tarod16: btw, I'm interested in Lisp programming because of him haha
2019-12-14T17:00:10Z beach: Great!
2019-12-14T17:00:30Z tarod16: Thanks :)
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2019-12-14T17:03:04Z beach: boeg: Should work.
2019-12-14T17:03:15Z boeg: beach: I thought so too
2019-12-14T17:03:18Z boeg: but it doesn't
2019-12-14T17:03:25Z beach: What is the exact form you type that doesn't work?
2019-12-14T17:03:31Z boeg: exactly that
2019-12-14T17:03:34Z beach: Forget the `s
2019-12-14T17:03:52Z boeg: I copy pasted those things and added the ` and " around
2019-12-14T17:04:00Z boeg: I load the function from a buffer into sly
2019-12-14T17:04:07Z boeg: and then I call the functions in the repl
2019-12-14T17:04:20Z boeg: well, actually, i'm mistaken
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2019-12-14T17:05:07Z boeg: the actual function call is to http::test, not test. It's in the system land-of-lisp.http - the http function has the nickname http so I do (http::test ...)
2019-12-14T17:05:12Z boeg: does that make a difference?
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2019-12-14T17:05:48Z beach: Then try (test '((http::name . "Bob"))) instead.
2019-12-14T17:06:09Z beach: You very likely have two symbols named NAME.
2019-12-14T17:06:17Z boeg: that works. It returns "(LAND-OF-LISP.HTTP::NAME . "Bob")"
2019-12-14T17:06:31Z beach: There you go.
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2019-12-14T17:06:42Z boeg: so that is because there are two symbols named "name"?
2019-12-14T17:06:47Z beach: Yes.
2019-12-14T17:07:04Z beach: One in the package that was current when the TEST function was defined.
2019-12-14T17:07:18Z beach: And the other one in the package that is current in your REPL.
2019-12-14T17:08:01Z boeg: So when I'm working inside a package and referencing symbols, I should preface them with, in this example, http:: to make sure it's the correct one i'm targeting?
2019-12-14T17:08:23Z boeg: because symbols are global
2019-12-14T17:09:35Z beach: The word "global" does not characterize symbols.  Symbols are just objects.  Each symbol typically has a name and a package.
2019-12-14T17:09:49Z boeg: alright
2019-12-14T17:09:53Z beach: In your case, the two names are the same, but the packages are different.
2019-12-14T17:10:16Z boeg: so to not run into that problem again, one would "namespace" symbols in practice?
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2019-12-14T17:11:05Z beach: It is hard to give a general answer to that.
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2019-12-14T17:11:44Z beach: I typically have many packages, and each one :USEs the CL package but no others.
2019-12-14T17:12:15Z beach: So if I need to refer to a symbol that is neither in the current package nor in the CL package, I use an explicit package prefix.
2019-12-14T17:13:05Z beach: Other people use :USE more frequently, and then you don't need the package prefix for symbols in the :USEd packages.
2019-12-14T17:13:47Z boeg: alright thanks
2019-12-14T17:13:53Z beach: Sure.
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2019-12-14T17:57:00Z boeg: Anybody here know about usocket? When I read-line my socket stream, I get an utf-8 decoding error. Do I have to tell usocket to stream in utf-8 or something? I've tried googling but with no luck
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2019-12-14T18:21:50Z smokeink: boeg, not sure if it helps: https://gist.github.com/traut/648dc0d7b22fdfeae6771a5a4a19f877
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2019-12-14T18:29:39Z boeg: smokeink: thanks, ill check it out
2019-12-14T18:30:44Z smokeink: also try these search-strings on google: "usocket filetype:lisp"  "usocket inurl:github"
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2019-12-14T18:36:41Z boeg: smokeink: yes, thanks
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2019-12-14T19:12:00Z boeg: smokeink: Omg ... the problem was that i have the https everywhere extension in the browser i use so it calls the server with ssl over http so yeah
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2019-12-14T19:12:15Z boeg: forcing http and everything worked
2019-12-14T19:12:25Z smokeink: :)
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2019-12-14T19:30:16Z boeg: if I have (in-package :my-package) at the top of my file, why do I still have to designate :my-package when I use `intern` or else it doesn't work?
2019-12-14T19:30:41Z boeg: shouldn't in-package set current package correctly so `intern` uses it?
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2019-12-14T19:50:18Z boeg: Seems if I set the current-package with in-package in the repl, it works as intended
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2019-12-14T19:51:07Z Bike: depends on where you're using intern
2019-12-14T19:51:25Z Bike: if you have like (in-package foo) (defun bar () (intern ...)), the package used by intern will be the one in place when bar is CALLED
2019-12-14T19:51:33Z Bike: rather than defined, which you may be expecting
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2019-12-14T19:53:30Z boeg: yeah, so the repl was in cl-user and intern was called in a function in a file with (in-package...) at the top, and so I thought when intern was called, the package set with in-package would be current-package, but it was cl-user. That was the mistake
2019-12-14T19:54:08Z boeg: I guess thats exactly what you just said so yeah, he :P
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2019-12-14T20:39:21Z eeeeeta: yay, I made a thing \o/ https://git.theta.eu.org/cl-piglow.git/about/
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2019-12-14T20:53:00Z Xach: eeeeeta: is it ok for quicklisp?
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2019-12-14T20:53:39Z eeeeeta: Xach: should be! I had no idea getting things into quicklisp was this simple :o
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2019-12-14T20:54:27Z eeeeeta: (I also have https://git.theta.eu.org/osmpbf.git/about/ which I made yesterday >_< that one's functional but probably not optimized)
2019-12-14T20:54:41Z Xach: darn it, the quicklisp build server crashed again
2019-12-14T20:54:58Z Xach sends a child to go restart it
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2019-12-14T20:56:48Z eeeeeta: Xach: if you add things, they auto update when I push stuff to git, right?
2019-12-14T20:57:03Z eeeeeta: (well, update whenever you rebuild the dist)
2019-12-14T20:57:16Z Xach: eeeeeta: yes. i can pull from a branch or tag or release also, if you want finer control over what is fetched.
2019-12-14T20:58:02Z eeeeeta: Xach: cool! just pulling from master should be fine for both of those (I'll use a develop branch for dodgy stuff, I guess)
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2019-12-14T20:58:58Z eeeeeta: Xach: and thanks for quicklisp :)) definitely has made my CL beginners' experience much nicer!
2019-12-14T21:00:24Z Xach: glad to hear it
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2019-12-14T21:15:36Z Xach: I'm interested in playing around with framebuffer stuff on my raspberry pi with lisp but i've heard it can be pretty slow
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2019-12-14T21:17:32Z eeeeeta: I mean it takes like a solid 6 seconds to initialize CCL and load cl-piglow, hunchentoot, and their deps
2019-12-14T21:17:44Z Xach: How is the runtime performance after that?
2019-12-14T21:17:48Z eeeeeta: this is on a zero though
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2019-12-14T21:17:54Z Xach: Is it the disk io that is slow or everything?
2019-12-14T21:18:01Z eeeeeta: not too atrocious, I suppose
2019-12-14T21:18:25Z Xach: I got my pi to play retro games on emulators but that novelty has worn off and I'm ready to play with my own stuff
2019-12-14T21:18:25Z eeeeeta: I mean I was developing stuff on it via swank and it didn't make me want to die
2019-12-14T21:18:58Z eeeeeta: consing seems slooow
2019-12-14T21:19:18Z eeeeeta: like I removed one small cons in a tight loop and it got quite a bit faster
2019-12-14T21:19:52Z eeeeeta: so yeah, be prepared to wait a literal minute or two if you want to compile stuff off quicklisp
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2019-12-14T21:21:26Z eeeeeta: Xach: which pi did you get? the newer pi3/4s are quite a bit faster
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2019-12-14T21:23:31Z Xach: 3 model b
2019-12-14T21:26:26Z pjb: There's no disk or SSD, only SD-CARD.  Speed will depend on the SD-CARD.
2019-12-14T21:26:48Z pjb: If it's too slow, there are Raspberry Pi 4 now that are much faster and with more memory.
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2019-12-14T21:41:46Z eeeeeta: Xach: should be pretty quick then, but, as pjb says, if you buy a fast USB drive or something, things radically improve
2019-12-14T21:41:52Z eeeeeta: SD cards are sluggish as all hell
2019-12-14T21:42:04Z eeeeeta bought a SanDisk Extreme for their pi 3b, fwiw
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2019-12-14T21:47:08Z Xach: I have a number of "fast" SD cards I got for photography, maybe they will suffice.
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2019-12-14T22:45:15Z Xach might have found some boot parameters to fix the quicklisp build server for now, on to hacking
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2019-12-14T22:49:49Z no-defun-allowed: It's been a while since I saw a "fast" micro-SD card.
2019-12-14T22:50:25Z no-defun-allowed: The post office sells "fast" micro SD cards for phones, but I haven't seen any advertised for photography for a while.
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2019-12-14T22:54:08Z Xach: eeeeeta: ah, for quicklisp, the system file must have :description, :author, and :license
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2019-12-14T22:56:22Z eeeeeta: Xach: aha, I'll get on that in the morning then (and ping you after?)
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2019-12-14T22:56:38Z Xach: thanks
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2019-12-14T23:10:28Z vms14: memo tell me
2019-12-14T23:10:28Z minion: vms14, memo from beach: tarod16 was here looking for you.
2019-12-14T23:10:31Z vms14: oh
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2019-12-15T05:08:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-12-15T05:09:17Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: ping
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2019-12-15T05:31:40Z no-defun-allowed: Should I add an IGNORE declaration to a method body for variables I don't use, even though they're implicitly used by CALL-NEXT-METHOD with no arguments?
2019-12-15T05:32:34Z beach: Yes, the declaration covers only the method body.
2019-12-15T05:32:52Z no-defun-allowed: Right, thanks.
2019-12-15T05:33:04Z beach: But if the parameter is specialized, it is considered used.
2019-12-15T05:34:11Z no-defun-allowed: They are not, so it should be fine then.
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2019-12-15T07:08:11Z equwal: Where can I get some more examples of the call-with* style (http://random-state.net/log/3390120648.html)?
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2019-12-15T07:09:05Z equwal: I don't quite understand how this thing works or when I might need it.
2019-12-15T07:13:45Z beach: equwal: The CLIM II specification has plenty of examples, and so does the McCLIM implementation of the specification.
2019-12-15T07:15:29Z beach: bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/2-9.html
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2019-12-15T07:38:07Z equwal: clim-demo:demodemo just blew my mind
2019-12-15T07:38:23Z beach: Oh?
2019-12-15T07:39:22Z equwal: I though getting McClim working would be some big process, but it took about 30 seconds.
2019-12-15T07:39:39Z equwal: Just quicklisp and done.
2019-12-15T07:40:30Z beach: Yes, it is usually easy.
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2019-12-15T07:46:42Z LdBeth: thankfully, people has done lots of work make Common Lisp softwares portable
2019-12-15T07:47:55Z aeth: Iirc, McCLIM uses CLX, which is a native-to-CL X client, which means you don't need foreign libraries and things are simple.
2019-12-15T07:48:20Z aeth: Things are always difficult when you need foreign libraries, in any language.
2019-12-15T07:48:27Z aeth: Or, in C, when you need libraries. :-p
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2019-12-15T10:01:00Z eeeeeta: Xach: alright, https://git.theta.eu.org/cl-piglow.git/ and https://git.theta.eu.org/osmpbf.git/ now both have ASDF metadata, as requested :)
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2019-12-15T10:40:53Z earl-ducaine: As a rule I like to keep lisp code to 80 colmns. I feel that about the ideal width for the human eye to scan lines comfortably.
2019-12-15T10:40:54Z earl-ducaine: However, it seems impossible to write CLIM code within those bounds without adopting pathological indenting and using extremely terse names that are at odds with the naming conventions of CLIM. Which IMO are a possitive aspect destinguishing it from other frameworks.
2019-12-15T10:41:23Z earl-ducaine: I've also noted that much Lisp code written in the classic era, i.e. for the MIT/LMI/Symbolics Lisp Machines, often use very wide lines. I currious what other's thoughts are on Lisp Code linewidth, especially when using a framework with a verbose othoganal naming scheme like CLIM.
2019-12-15T10:43:41Z no-defun-allowed: Usually I try to keep between 80 and 90 columns, but sometimes I have to get clever with indentation to keep under that limit with long names.
2019-12-15T10:46:20Z cl-arthur: I usually aim for <80 cols too, but will happily go over if it looks better than breaking things across multiple lines.
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2019-12-15T10:47:51Z no-defun-allowed: Though my last project with very long names doesn't involve CLIM (yet), I have had to deal with a 50 character function name.
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2019-12-15T10:48:27Z earl-ducaine: no-defun-allowed: To avoid the pathological indentation noted, and to avoid feeling that shorten and abreviate variables, I'm experimenting with 120.
2019-12-15T10:49:23Z earl-ducaine: I have to say that to me it seems to negatively impact the readability of code.
2019-12-15T10:49:37Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. The only problem with that is that I like to have a REPL open in half of my screen (split vertically), which obviously halves the width I can use.
2019-12-15T10:50:11Z earl-ducaine: It also means that I can't use my favorite emacs window configuration, because side by side editing is to long on laptops.
2019-12-15T10:50:56Z earl-ducaine: no-defun-allowed: That's the worst aspect of it so far.
2019-12-15T10:51:21Z no-defun-allowed: The only solution for that I know is to use a smaller font, but I like having a pixel-for-pixel Lisp machine font for some reason.
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2019-12-15T10:52:02Z earl-ducaine: And by making it 120 characters, I'm imposing that width on anyone who wants to support the code.
2019-12-15T10:53:01Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, currently I can fit about 105 characters in half of my laptop's screen.
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2019-12-15T10:57:51Z earl-ducaine: Ideally line width would be a personal preference, and your editor would grind the code into the standard format of the repository when you check it in.
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2019-12-15T10:58:51Z earl-ducaine: I would feel less concern about adopting 120 length lines .
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2019-12-15T11:12:42Z tfb: earl-ducaine: that's essentially what sedit on the dmachines did of course (although I am not sure how comments worked)
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2019-12-15T11:27:44Z earl-ducaine: tfb: Franz Lisp (the free maclisp compatible version that was distributed in the 80s) was bundled with cmuedit, which I think is related to sedit. I've alway ment to see if I could get it to run to check it out.
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2019-12-15T11:57:18Z gendl: Hi, is there a simple relational database implemented natively in Lisp? Something like a clsql frontend but without needing an external db server?
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2019-12-15T12:04:43Z cl-arthur: are you looking for an in-memory database to avoid configuring an on-disk one? What do you mean by external?
2019-12-15T12:08:30Z gendl: It can be in-memory or read & write to the filesystem.
2019-12-15T12:09:57Z fe[nl]ix: if you don't want an external server you can use sqlite
2019-12-15T12:10:04Z gendl: by “external” I mean a separate non-lisp program (other than the filesystem provided by the os)
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2019-12-15T12:17:19Z gendl: fe[n]ix: I was hoping for something lisp-native but sqlite with cl-sqlite looks like the next-best thing, thanks 🙏🏻
2019-12-15T12:19:22Z Xach: gendl: https://github.com/kraison/vivace-graph-v3 is pure lisp but not relational (sorry)
2019-12-15T12:19:27Z Xach: it is a graph DB
2019-12-15T12:19:39Z Xach: I don't know of a relational one offhand
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2019-12-15T12:24:33Z gendl: Xach: thanks, I should learn more about graph databases, I think relational can be simulated on top of them, but as I understand, graph db’s tend to do purposeful denormalization of tables..
2019-12-15T12:25:59Z gendl: I’ll give cl-sqlite a try. I’m just trying to make a little web app for recipe & ingredient management.
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2019-12-15T12:44:51Z Xach: I wish that asdf would report all missing dependencies at once rather than piecemeal
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2019-12-15T12:54:57Z Xach:  
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2019-12-15T14:51:10Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: pong
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2019-12-15T16:20:24Z stylewarning: Xach: this calls for fe[nl]ix’s “asdf is imperative” speech
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2019-12-15T18:01:19Z galdor: I'm curious, is there a idiomatic way to read everything from a stream until EOF and return it as a sequence? I'm used to write a function which calls READ-SEQUENCE repeatedly with a buffer growing with ADJUST-ARRAY, but it seems way overkill for something which should be simple
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2019-12-15T18:04:41Z Bike: i mean, that's pretty much what you have to do, yeah? if you don't know the length beforehand.
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2019-12-15T18:07:36Z galdor: I don't know, there may be some kind of built in I missed
2019-12-15T18:08:05Z Bike: fraid not
2019-12-15T18:08:10Z Bike: i think alexandria has read-file-into-string
2019-12-15T18:08:13Z Bike: but it just does that
2019-12-15T18:08:55Z galdor: yeah but I want a stream in general; for example if you spawn a process with SB-EXT:RUN-PROGRAM, you may want to read the entire output from the stdout and stderr streams
2019-12-15T18:08:58Z galdor: oh well
2019-12-15T18:09:10Z Bike: there's also read-stream-content-into-string
2019-12-15T18:09:28Z Bike: or -into-byte-vector if you prefer
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2019-12-15T18:10:25Z galdor: oh interesting
2019-12-15T18:10:28Z galdor: thank you
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2019-12-15T18:11:56Z mfiano: uiop has various functions for doing so
2019-12-15T18:12:09Z mfiano: slurp-stream-string comes to mind
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2019-12-15T18:48:44Z pjb: galdor: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-list-file-contents "file.sexp")
2019-12-15T18:49:26Z pjb: galdor: from a stream: (loop :for form = (read in nil in) :until (eq form in) :collect form)
2019-12-15T18:50:09Z pjb: galdor: sexp-list-file-contents is an accessor. You can do (setf (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-list-file-contents "/tmp/file.sexp")  '(a b c)) to write the file.
2019-12-15T18:50:16Z galdor: the loop version is interesting, I need one day to spend more time understanding the code being generated
2019-12-15T18:50:56Z galdor: regarding the other function, I cannot use it because of the license (not a complaint of course, your code your decision)
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2019-12-15T18:55:37Z slyrus__: is there any sort of mapping from lisp packages to asdf systems?
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2019-12-15T19:01:19Z pjb: slyrus__: nope.
2019-12-15T19:01:29Z slyrus__: Ok.
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2019-12-15T19:01:49Z pjb: slyrus__: loading a system is Turing Complete!  This could create or modify 0, 1 or multiple packages.
2019-12-15T19:01:53Z _death: slyrus: not aware of any centralized place, but here are some: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1604#1604
2019-12-15T19:02:01Z pjb: slyrus__: a different set of packages each time you load the system!
2019-12-15T19:03:09Z pjb: slyrus__: for example if you load the system in the morning, perhaps a package named "MORNING" would be created, and if you load it in the afternoon, a package named "AFTERNOON" would be created…
2019-12-15T19:03:39Z pjb: slyrus__: perhaps a package named "BACKEND-CCL" would be created on ccl, and another named "BACKEND-SBCL" would be created on sbcl?
2019-12-15T19:03:45Z slyrus__: pjb: sure, but asdf:register-system-packages allows one to advertise which packages the system creates, no?
2019-12-15T19:04:46Z pjb: More or less.
2019-12-15T19:05:19Z _death: slyrus: this is useful in relation to package-inferred-systems.. with that idea in mind, I wonder if defsystem has/should have an option to specify it
2019-12-15T19:05:35Z slyrus__: _death: yeah, that's what I was thinking.
2019-12-15T19:06:38Z slyrus__: well I'm fantasizing about new features, it would be nice if slime's argument completion supported local package nicknames.
2019-12-15T19:06:40Z pjb: You could have poor systems that define a single statically defined package when loaded.  Then you could make a map.  But mind that several systems may define or modify the same package.
2019-12-15T19:07:09Z _death: slyrus: I was just scanning slime's pull requests, and I noticed I have an open one from 2016.. this is why I didn't bother making further pull requests
2019-12-15T19:07:50Z _death: slyrus: I think there was a PR related to local package nicknames.. likely bitrotted
2019-12-15T19:08:28Z slyrus__: pjb: yeah, I just want a shorthand to find the system file that corresponds (or advertises itself as corresponding) to a given package.
2019-12-15T19:09:07Z pjb: slyrus__: you can track the differences between the packages before and after loading a system, and record those facts for later querying in the same lisp image.
2019-12-15T19:09:37Z galdor: if someone here is admin on common-lisp.net, https://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/ references git://common-lisp.net/projects/alexandria/alexandria.git which is dead ("Connection refused", etc.)
2019-12-15T19:09:52Z pjb: slyrus__: but note that it's already what M-. does. Jumping to some source file in some system directory…
2019-12-15T19:10:05Z pjb: slyrus__: only, several systems could be loading the same file, so you wouldn't know which system loaded the file.
2019-12-15T19:10:49Z galdor: the correct uri would be https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria.git
2019-12-15T19:11:18Z slyrus__: pjb: Sure, but I want my code to find it, not M-. . Like I said, I just want a way to be able to advertise that an asdf system provides a package, and then to be able to, given a package, find that system.
2019-12-15T19:11:46Z pjb: yeah a 80% solution that doesn't help when you really need it.
2019-12-15T19:11:54Z slyrus__: exactly :) works for me!
2019-12-15T19:12:01Z pjb: When you work with a system, you know the packages it provides and vice-versa…
2019-12-15T19:14:45Z stylewarning: I would love to see some global environment diff mechanism with beach’s stuff
2019-12-15T19:14:52Z stylewarning: Observe the effects of loading a system
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2019-12-15T19:19:54Z jason_m: With standard CL, is there a way to create something like C's pipe? I have some instances that read and write data, up until now using *standard-input* and *standard-output*.  Now I would like one instance's output to serve as input to another.
2019-12-15T19:22:56Z pjb: jason_m: what's a C pipe? I know C char, int, long, float, double, C arrays, C structures, C enums, C unions; C functions; C statements and C expressions.  What is a C pipe?
2019-12-15T19:23:23Z pjb: jason_m: have a look at com.informatimago.clext.pipe.
2019-12-15T19:23:56Z pjb: jason_m: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/clext/pipe-article-en.txt
2019-12-15T19:24:58Z jason_m: pjb: pipe is a function from unisdt.h.  It returns sets a pair of file descriptors that can be used for reading and writing.  http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/pipe.2.html
2019-12-15T19:25:21Z pjb: jason_m: unistd is the standard interface to UNIX.
2019-12-15T19:25:26Z _death: jason_m: not standard, but if you're using sbcl, https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1605#1605 (uses sb-sys:make-fd-stream)
2019-12-15T19:25:38Z jason_m: (Or it sets a pair of file descriptor rather)
2019-12-15T19:25:40Z pjb: jason_m: if you want that, use iolib or some implementation-specific POSIX package.
2019-12-15T19:25:58Z _death: (and sb-posix:pipe)
2019-12-15T19:26:10Z pjb: jason_m: note: this has nothing to do with STREAM such as *standard-input* or *standard-output*!
2019-12-15T19:27:52Z pjb: jason_m: so you were confusing C with unix or posix, and you were confusing streams with posix file descriptors…
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2019-12-15T19:29:35Z jason_m: pjb: I don't know of a file descriptor interface in CL? The pipe function is the closest analogy I am familiar with.
2019-12-15T19:30:17Z pjb: jason_m: you DIDN't know it.  Now you know it, since I told you about it 3 messages above.
2019-12-15T19:30:36Z stylewarning: pjb you’re being pedantic again and it’s annoting
2019-12-15T19:30:39Z stylewarning: annoying *
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2019-12-15T19:31:41Z pjb: stylewarning: I'm not pedantic. I would like to know if it's worth the pain to write here…
2019-12-15T19:31:52Z pjb: If I'm talking to walls, there's no point.
2019-12-15T19:32:19Z stylewarning: Just provide pointers for information. If it’s not helpful to him, then let it be. If it is, great.
2019-12-15T19:35:33Z jason_m: pjb: You did, but my question was whether there was something similar included in the standard. You gave me something outside the standard.
2019-12-15T19:36:10Z pjb: jason_m: then the answer is no.
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2019-12-15T19:36:46Z pjb: jason_m: note that it's the same in C.
2019-12-15T19:36:58Z jason_m: Yes, that is correct
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2019-12-15T20:15:20Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: loading split-sequence with sbcl 1.5.9 I see some warning about being unable to inline, and some about unreacheable code. can you take a look into that ?
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2019-12-15T21:41:59Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: OK, will do tomorrow and submit a PR.
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2019-12-16T03:27:49Z ebrasca: Is there some method to control GC?
2019-12-16T03:28:26Z Bike: your implementation might expose an interface.
2019-12-16T03:29:01Z ebrasca: I don't see any in Mezzano.
2019-12-16T03:29:21Z ebrasca: Is there some cl stantard for GC control?
2019-12-16T03:29:33Z Bike: no, the standard doesn't even mandate garbage collection.
2019-12-16T03:29:52Z Bike: there is a trivial-garbage portability library, but i don't think it covers mezzano.
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2019-12-16T03:31:09Z ebrasca: I think I need to control GC to manage properly my page cache in Mezzano.
2019-12-16T03:31:55Z ebrasca: How can CL work without GC?
2019-12-16T03:32:30Z Bike: not for very long, mainly
2019-12-16T03:32:37Z no-defun-allowed: It probably can't, honestly, but the option is there.
2019-12-16T03:32:50Z pjb: Depends. Lisp Machines were rebooted only weekly.  They could work that long without a GC…
2019-12-16T03:33:03Z Bike: or with real aggressive block optimization, iunno
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2019-12-16T03:46:42Z drmeister: This question is a bit off topic - but I want to use flock(2) to control generation of fasls in clasp compile-file.
2019-12-16T03:46:49Z drmeister: Has anyone used flock(2) before?
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2019-12-16T03:58:20Z drmeister: I've got questions about opening the file, cleaning it up and doing that while maintaining the lock.
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2019-12-16T04:15:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-16T04:31:38Z equwal: Good morning beach!
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2019-12-16T06:42:43Z pjb: drmeister: flock works on the file descriptor wholesale (ie. the flock is in the i-node).  So there should be no problem cleaning the file and rewriting it with the lock.
2019-12-16T06:44:30Z davr0s_: any news in "lisp land"
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2019-12-16T06:46:11Z beach: davr0s_: Lots!  McCLIM is being worked on daily, and it is getting very good.
2019-12-16T06:48:02Z davr0s_: thanks i must google..
2019-12-16T06:48:19Z davr0s_: i haven't followed anything in lisp circles for a long time
2019-12-16T06:48:28Z no-defun-allowed: I had just gotten the server for my distributed hash-table/object store mismash working a couple of hours ago, but McCLIM is cooler.
2019-12-16T06:48:48Z beach: davr0s_: Submission dates for ELS2020 have been announced.
2019-12-16T06:49:09Z davr0s_: ok i see it's a UI kit of sorts?
2019-12-16T06:49:21Z davr0s_: i did always think lisp macros would be pretty good at that sort of thing
2019-12-16T06:49:27Z beach: ?
2019-12-16T06:49:46Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, it is an implementation of the Common Lisp Interface Manager standard, which does graphical interface things.
2019-12-16T06:49:57Z beach: CLIM is an excellent example of the use of standard classes and generic functions.  There are *some* macros of course.
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2019-12-16T06:50:29Z no-defun-allowed: And sure, they're good at making layouts. I hated doing those when I had begun learning GUIs in macroless languages.
2019-12-16T06:51:15Z beach: davr0s_: At the level of implementing Common Lisp, jackdaniel is working on the ECL compiler, and he is giving an invited talk about it at ELS.
2019-12-16T06:51:29Z beach: davr0s_: And phoe has started maintaining CCL.
2019-12-16T06:51:55Z davr0s_: CCL , searching yields non lispy resupts.. what is it?
2019-12-16T06:52:02Z no-defun-allowed: (Then I'd like to guess the whole Electron thing is cause HTML is declarative, and so is much better at describing most layouts. Greenspun's tenth law and all.)
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2019-12-16T06:52:10Z no-defun-allowed: Clozure Common Lisp: https://ccl.clozure.com/
2019-12-16T06:52:25Z beach: davr0s_: scymtym is working on Eclector and the library for Concrete Syntax Trees.  He has also worked on McCLIM, and especially on Clouseau.
2019-12-16T06:52:42Z beach: davr0s_: I guess you must have been out for some time.
2019-12-16T06:53:43Z davr0s_: i should add: i've only really dabled with lisps.. the most i've written is elisp emacs customizations, lol. years ago i went on some "new language" quest
2019-12-16T06:54:01Z davr0s_: i liked some aspects of some lisps (CL and clojure) but never really stuck with them and moved on
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2019-12-16T06:55:23Z beach: OK, so I should start from the beginning.  This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp which is a language that was standardized in 1994.
2019-12-16T06:55:34Z davr0s_: right
2019-12-16T06:55:44Z davr0s_: common lisp, not the other dialects
2019-12-16T06:56:26Z beach: It has several unique features, of which CLOS is a major one.  It allows the user to define generic functions and classes.
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2019-12-16T06:57:43Z davr0s_: never actually touched CLOS but i'm aware it supports multimethods, interestingly
2019-12-16T06:57:55Z beach: This feature is part of what makes it possible for CLIM/McCLIM to be designed in layers where the application programmer can adapt how it works in each layer.
2019-12-16T06:58:59Z beach: Not only does it allow for multiple dispatch, it also allows for different method combinations with auxiliary methods.
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2019-12-16T08:00:09Z boeg: Can somebody explain the me the use of @ in a macros? Or link me to something on it
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2019-12-16T08:01:40Z phoe: boeg: if X is (3 4 5), `(1 2 ,x) is (1 2 (3 4 5)) but `(1 2 ,@x) is (1 2 3 4 5)
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2019-12-16T08:02:09Z phoe: is that the use of @ that you seek? That character doesn't usually occur alone in standard CL.
2019-12-16T08:03:39Z boeg: phoe, well, to give you context, it's explained as if there a multiple "bodies" for example, so you do ,@body to include the "body" of the function. But then I also see this: ,@(mapcar #'cdr p) which I'm not sure I understand. The ,@body thing makes sense
2019-12-16T08:04:10Z jackdaniel: boeg: mapcar returns a list
2019-12-16T08:04:17Z jackdaniel: so this list is unspliced
2019-12-16T08:04:29Z boeg: ah
2019-12-16T08:04:31Z boeg: of course
2019-12-16T08:04:42Z jackdaniel: `(1 2 ,@(mapcar #'1+ x)) ;-> (1 2 4 5 6)
2019-12-16T08:04:45Z jackdaniel: usuing previous example
2019-12-16T08:04:54Z boeg: I don't think of it being "expanded" to its value before ,@ did its things
2019-12-16T08:04:56Z boeg: now it makes sense
2019-12-16T08:05:04Z boeg: didn't*
2019-12-16T08:05:14Z boeg: thank you, jackdaniel and phoe
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2019-12-16T08:06:36Z phoe: the , part of the backquote makes sure it is "expanded" to its value
2019-12-16T08:06:46Z phoe: the @ part ensures to get rid of one level of its list structure
2019-12-16T08:08:00Z boeg: yes, now its clear :)
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2019-12-16T08:27:00Z pjb: There's no part.  There are 3 different syntax that are available inside a backquote expression: ,  ,@  and ,. that's all.
2019-12-16T08:27:23Z pjb: And it's totally unrelated to macros!
2019-12-16T08:27:44Z pjb: (besides, macros are just functions like any other function, so anything you could use in macros, you could use in normal functions).
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2019-12-16T08:46:15Z boeg: pjb: interesting, thank you
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2019-12-16T09:35:03Z aeth: oh, wow, I've never seen ,. before
2019-12-16T09:35:19Z aeth: it's basically a nconc, apparently
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2019-12-16T10:05:50Z phoe: yes
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2019-12-16T10:06:31Z phoe: pretty useless because it's equivalent to ,@ but mutates things instead of creating new ones - efficiency or something?
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2019-12-16T10:06:59Z phoe: it must be efficiency, because I cannot imagine using backquote for side effects
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2019-12-16T10:12:34Z tfb: phoe: I think efficiency, yes, because nothing says it *must* use nconc I think.
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2019-12-16T10:23:00Z phoe: tfb: > Anywhere ``,@'' may be used, the syntax ``,.'' may be used instead to indicate that it is permissible to operate destructively on the list structure produced by the form following the ``,.'' (in effect, to use nconc instead of append).
2019-12-16T10:23:06Z phoe: clhs 2.4.6
2019-12-16T10:23:06Z specbot: Backquote: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
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2019-12-16T10:23:24Z phoe: if ,@ is supposed to be appendlike then ,. is supposed to be nconclike
2019-12-16T10:23:36Z phoe: so their uses must be equivalent to calling the respectivese functions
2019-12-16T10:23:40Z p_l: BTW, anyone using CCL on latest MacOS? Seems to bring issues
2019-12-16T10:25:29Z phoe: p_l: which issues
2019-12-16T10:25:38Z tfb: phoe:  yes, 'may' and 'permissable' is the point.  Not 'must': (nconc a b) *must* modify a if it's a non-null list, but ,. only may use nconc.
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2019-12-16T10:25:50Z phoe: we're aware that Catalina causes things to break, newest Xcode causes things to break, etc..
2019-12-16T10:27:10Z tfb: phoe: so, in particular, I don't think there is a guarantee that (let ((a (list 1 2))) `(0 ,.a 3) a) is (1 2 3)
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2019-12-16T10:27:14Z p_l: phoe: yeah, the big problem is that there's not enough bug reports
2019-12-16T10:27:26Z p_l: and an even bigger problem is that I can't catch something reportable
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2019-12-16T10:28:09Z p_l: things fail to display properly or act properly but don't result in errors in code
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2019-12-16T10:28:55Z phoe: tfb: well then, in that case ,. must NOT be used for side effects if it may or may not use nconc
2019-12-16T10:29:14Z phoe: p_l: there is little doable if there are no bug reports
2019-12-16T10:29:45Z p_l: phoe: kinda hoping to coax more people to speak on them :)
2019-12-16T10:30:00Z p_l: since from my side, it feels like being gaslighted
2019-12-16T10:30:12Z p_l: something is /subtly/ wrong but doesn't leave obvious trace to follow
2019-12-16T10:30:28Z tfb: phoe: yes, I think that's right.  Using ,. means 'I'm OK if you (the implementation) smash this list if you want to and you decide it's worth doing'
2019-12-16T10:30:30Z p_l: and I know that OpusModus folks got some serious errors but I haven't seen anything reported :(
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2019-12-16T10:34:35Z tfb: p_l: I am getting ccl build errors on 10.14 now even.  I'll have a look and report it on the mailing list if it looks reproduceable
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2019-12-16T10:38:46Z phoe: p_l: we really need reports from them in that case.
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2019-12-16T13:41:09Z jmercouris: thoughts on: http://picolisp.com/wiki/?arrayabstinence ?
2019-12-16T13:41:30Z jmercouris: the author has in my mind, made a compelling argument against arrays
2019-12-16T13:42:45Z phoe: > Of course the difference gets bigger if the list gets longer, but typically there will be also much more processing of the data than simple increments.
2019-12-16T13:43:36Z Shinmera: Arguments for implementation simplicity have not much place in a Common Lisp chatroom, I would say.
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2019-12-16T13:45:24Z phoe: if you disregard access speed and memory usage, it is obvious that arrays are useless
2019-12-16T13:45:43Z phoe: and this post disregards access speed and memory usage, so it does arrive at that exact conclusion
2019-12-16T13:46:24Z phoe: > If there is a choice between arrays or lists, lists will clearly win.
2019-12-16T13:46:45Z phoe: this is as opinionated as an online post can get, other than you can easily implement lists with arrays of length 2 but you can't do it the other way
2019-12-16T13:47:20Z phoe: > Sure, there are typical cases like image rasterization. But when did you the last time implement Bresenham's line algorithm in application programming? Instead, you resort to a library, or write it in C or even assembly if a library is not available.
2019-12-16T13:47:29Z eeeeeta: 🤔
2019-12-16T13:47:42Z phoe: "let me pretend that arrays aren't useful by forcing you to program in non-picolisp whenever array programming is actually required
2019-12-16T13:47:47Z phoe: "
2019-12-16T13:47:57Z eeeeeta: "our language doesn't have feature X, but it's fine, nobody wants to implement feature X anyway"
2019-12-16T13:48:28Z phoe: > In other cases - like two-dimensional maps - there are better ways. Look for example how the board in the PicoLisp chess program (and other games and many rosetta code solutions) is implemented with direct connection attributes (north, west etc.) between the fields instead of integer arithmetics for array indexes.
2019-12-16T13:48:30Z jackdaniel: picolisp has its niche and these points may be valid for picolisp, yet discussing picolisp and its niche belongs somewhere else ,-)
2019-12-16T13:48:58Z phoe: right - tl;dr that post is silly to me
2019-12-16T13:49:04Z jackdaniel: it is enough to say that common lisp has both lists and arrays and if someone decides that lists fit their needs then go for it!
2019-12-16T13:51:18Z jackdaniel waits for a CDR proposing conformant array displacement
2019-12-16T13:51:40Z jackdaniel: conformal
2019-12-16T13:51:42Z jackdaniel: damn
2019-12-16T13:51:58Z eeeeeta: a what now? :P
2019-12-16T13:52:18Z jackdaniel: conformal displacement is a kind of array displacement which respects original array dimensions
2019-12-16T13:52:54Z jackdaniel: right now if you displace at the array, the displaced array treats original memory as a single chunk, in case of conformal displacement you may have a slice of the original array
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2019-12-16T13:53:34Z eeeeeta: ah right
2019-12-16T13:54:05Z heisig: Speaking of the speed of arrays - here is a teaser for AVX2 on SBCL: https://gist.github.com/marcoheisig/1334e260195e42704824c69419a545e3
2019-12-16T13:54:06Z jackdaniel: that wasn't the best explanation, but I'm glad you understood :)
2019-12-16T13:54:57Z jackdaniel: eeeeeta: this: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/40810796/displaced-multidimensional-arrays-in-common-lisp
2019-12-16T13:55:18Z jackdaniel: see coredump's answer
2019-12-16T13:56:07Z eeeeeta: jackdaniel: oh right, so it's essentially just array slicing (but for multidimensional arrays in row-major order)?
2019-12-16T13:57:38Z jackdaniel: I don't understand the part in parentheses :( it is displacing an array so the array you displace to is not treated as one-dimensional sequence
2019-12-16T13:58:25Z eeeeeta: hmmm
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2019-12-16T13:59:32Z eeeeeta: oh right I wasn't looking at coredump's answer, d'oh
2019-12-16T13:59:36Z eeeeeta: I understand it now
2019-12-16T13:59:48Z eeeeeta: heh, that's quite a niche feature >_<
2019-12-16T14:00:16Z jackdaniel: that's the most obvious thing (to me!) when I think about displacing arrays
2019-12-16T14:00:35Z jackdaniel: but sure, it is niche, still very cool though
2019-12-16T14:00:41Z eeeeeta: I've never encountered displaced arrays before
2019-12-16T14:01:00Z eeeeeta: but they seem pretty cool as a feature
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2019-12-16T14:01:24Z jackdaniel: important note: displaced arrays *are* part of CL, conformal displacement is not
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2019-12-16T14:01:45Z eeeeeta: ah right
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2019-12-16T14:06:20Z scymtym: this illustrates the feature nicely: https://youtu.be/o4-YnLpLgtk?t=614
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2019-12-16T14:57:47Z jmercouris: I just figured it was interesting for discussion since CL did make the choice keep in arrays
2019-12-16T14:58:21Z phoe: CL aims to be a practical language
2019-12-16T14:58:39Z phoe: and limiting the programmer's choices is hardly a practical thing to do
2019-12-16T14:59:05Z jmercouris: phoe: it *may* be a practical thing to do if limiting the choice results in better throughput
2019-12-16T14:59:46Z phoe: throughput for what exactly
2019-12-16T15:00:01Z jmercouris: programs over time
2019-12-16T15:00:28Z phoe: it's a bold claim that Lisp programs would happen quicker if we removed arrays from the language
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2019-12-16T15:00:54Z jmercouris: it would be, if I had made it
2019-12-16T15:02:09Z phoe: good! you can write your Lisp programs without using any non-string arrays then
2019-12-16T15:07:29Z pfdietz: CL is also a product of its time (decades ago) and process (standardization of existing implementations).   A clean sheet specification might do things differently, but also might be stillborn from lack of interest.
2019-12-16T15:08:31Z p_l: Interesting thing for me is that displaced arrays were considered controversial
2019-12-16T15:08:49Z Xach: lexical scope was controversial also
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2019-12-16T15:10:27Z pfdietz: Displaced arrays feel ok to me, but I would rather have a language where something like them could be added as a user extension, while maintaining good performance.
2019-12-16T15:12:26Z Bike: i don't think displaced arrays maintain good performance usually
2019-12-16T15:12:58Z phoe: they introduce one level of indirection for every displacement
2019-12-16T15:13:06Z phoe: and you can nest displacement anyway, sooo
2019-12-16T15:13:28Z pfdietz: I mean, an implementation in which such extensions can be added, while maintaining good performance of the "fast" versions of things.
2019-12-16T15:14:23Z pfdietz: I also dream of a CL where operations on standard objects are as fast as operations on structure objects.
2019-12-16T15:16:56Z Bike: seems impossible without adding similar redefinability constraints to the relevant standard classes
2019-12-16T15:17:04Z Bike: though things could definitely be faster than they are
2019-12-16T15:17:23Z jackdaniel: using lists to represent arrays of objects is a verbatim example from Norvig "style guide" of practices which flush performance down the toilet
2019-12-16T15:17:23Z phoe: pfdietz: I think you'd need to simplify the accessor protocol for cases where no custom CLOS behaviour is specified and so accessor calls can be simplified to standard-instance-access. And then be able to recompile all functions that use these accessors whenever a class definition changes.
2019-12-16T15:17:32Z phoe: A Lisp system could do that, in theory.
2019-12-16T15:18:17Z phoe: ;; Or you could define DEFSTRUCT using DEFCLASS - both are going to have the same speed in that case, so your constraint will be satisfied.
2019-12-16T15:18:55Z Bike: beach's thing should make it possible
2019-12-16T15:19:02Z Bike: but it requires a lot of bookkeeping so i haven't tried it yet
2019-12-16T15:19:20Z Bike: should make it possible even when there is custom behavior, really
2019-12-16T15:20:01Z pfdietz: The challenge is what you do when stack frames from the recompiled code are on the stack, or in closures, when the redefinition occurs.   The compiler would have to arrange things so that the code could be hot swapped without invalidating the frames.
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2019-12-16T15:21:28Z Bike: i think if you redefined a class while in a method specialized on that class that uses its accessors you'd probably lose
2019-12-16T15:21:31Z jackdaniel: the approach beach proposes uses a two-pointer structure for object where first pointer addresses the instance
2019-12-16T15:21:34Z Bike: hmmmmm
2019-12-16T15:21:40Z jackdaniel: and the second one the up-to-date class definition
2019-12-16T15:21:45Z jackdaniel: and they may be compared with a stamp
2019-12-16T15:21:46Z Bike: well, no, you'd still have objects with the old version of the class, i suppose... it might work
2019-12-16T15:22:14Z jackdaniel: (given I understand it correctly)
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2019-12-16T15:23:34Z Bike: every class has a number ("stamp"). when you redefine a class it gets a new stamp. Each instance has a stamp and also a reference to the class. An instance is obsolete if the stamp in the instance doesn't match the stamp in its class.
2019-12-16T15:23:46Z scymtym: Bike: i think beach's plan is to hoist the rack access which would result in using the old version. have to make sure it is reloaded eventually, though - similar to safepoints
2019-12-16T15:24:23Z Bike: well, has beach has it now, any slot access in a method would be through a generic function, so it would just dispatch there and update the instance
2019-12-16T15:24:27Z Bike: as beach*
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2019-12-16T15:25:18Z Bike: so it's perfectly safe but you do a lot of dispatching
2019-12-16T15:25:31Z Bike: (which is ok, since dispatching is pretty fast, but could possibly be better)
2019-12-16T15:26:03Z Xach: I don't want to jinx it but I think my quicklisp build server problems are behind me.
2019-12-16T15:27:28Z pfdietz: [server explodes]
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2019-12-16T15:29:21Z phoe: Xach: how do you solve them?
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2019-12-16T15:30:27Z Xach: phoe: https://askubuntu.com/questions/863150/pcie-bus-error-severity-corrected-type-physical-layer-id-00e5receiver-id suggested a boot parameter that seems to have worked. it has to do with disabling a power-save PCIe bus thingy.
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2019-12-16T15:38:07Z pfdietz: I think one could use a one-pointer solution by allocating objects of a given class on their own pages, then protecting the page after redefinition.   Accesses that cause traps would cause updates of pointers, or they could be updated at GC time.
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2019-12-16T15:38:52Z pfdietz: Many games can be played with the virtual memory machinery.
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2019-12-16T15:46:25Z phoe: Is such detailed information about virtual memory available for a Unix process? Like, execute code when a single page fault has occurred?
2019-12-16T15:46:45Z phoe: And not a single one, but rather, a fault on a specific page?
2019-12-16T15:48:13Z ggole: The signal handler gets the faulting address, so that should be possible
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2019-12-16T15:48:58Z ggole: Probably not portably
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2019-12-16T15:52:12Z phoe: but the signal handler is set by the OS and not by the application - or is it? if the latter is the case, then a Lisp implementation would be able to do that
2019-12-16T15:53:38Z ggole: See sigaction(2)
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2019-12-16T15:55:20Z ggole: This is actually used by some implementations of some languages, although not in the way that you describe
2019-12-16T15:55:23Z Bike: posix allows si_addr to be inaccurate, but hopefully in practice it's fine
2019-12-16T15:56:03Z ggole: iirc some JVMs implement null-pointer dereferences as a signal handler seeing accesses to page zero and converting them to an exception
2019-12-16T15:56:14Z Bike: implementations install signal handlers already, it's how if you manage to segfault sbcl you can see what address the fuckup was at, and go back to the repl
2019-12-16T15:56:27Z pfdietz: Also for implementing write barriers.
2019-12-16T15:57:28Z pfdietz: I understand the zgc garbage collector has tag bits in pointers that are effectively masked out by mapping all the possible addresses for them to the same physical page.
2019-12-16T15:58:57Z ggole: There was an interesting paper/talk on memory compaction (intended for C, iirc) without relocation that used a similar trick
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2019-12-16T15:59:20Z pfdietz: I saw that.  Interleaving virtual pages on the same physical page if none of the allocated objects overlap.
2019-12-16T16:00:05Z ggole: Yeah. This seems to be it: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1902.04738.pdf
2019-12-16T16:00:09Z ggole: Very clever.
2019-12-16T16:01:39Z phoe: Bike: I am aware of signal handlers - is a page fault a Unix signal though?
2019-12-16T16:02:20Z Bike: isn't it sigbus?
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2019-12-16T16:04:06Z pfdietz: https://lwn.net/Articles/550555/
2019-12-16T16:04:22Z phoe: > The main difference between Segmentation Fault and Bus Error is that Segmentation Fault indicates an invalid access to a valid memory, while Bus Error indicates an access to an invalid address.
2019-12-16T16:04:32Z phoe: https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/segmentation-fault-sigsegv-vs-bus-error-sigbus/ tells me this is not
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2019-12-16T16:06:39Z Bike: pfdietz: it looks like that didn't actually pan out and you use userfaultfd instead
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2019-12-16T16:08:14Z pfdietz: 2013 is old, I guess.
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2019-12-16T16:14:19Z Bike: sbcl just uses segv
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2019-12-16T17:05:23Z p_l: phoe: page fault is segfault
2019-12-16T17:05:54Z p_l: sigbus is for things like unaligned access on system that doesn't support it
2019-12-16T17:07:02Z shangul: Xach, When trying to use (quicklisp-quickstart:install) I get 503. What to do?
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2019-12-16T17:14:41Z pjb`: jmercouris: I would bet that even picolisp has (elt list index).  ACL2 (which is more a theorem proven than a programming language) also doesn't have arrays, and use lists to represent them, but that's only in the purpose of proving theorems.   Other languages such as Python don't have "arrays", but their lists are actually arrayss.  You could (picolisp could, if it was a serious implementation) implement lists as arrays when pos
2019-12-16T17:14:41Z pjb`: and necessary.  For example, on Lisp Machines, there was automatic cdr-coding, which in effect transformed lists into vectors (and sublists even!), which spared memory, and made possible O(1) accesses for functions such as elt.
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2019-12-16T17:17:47Z Bike: well, it has nth
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2019-12-16T17:38:37Z Xach: shangul: hmm, do you get it if you try again?
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2019-12-16T17:51:29Z ggole:  Cdr-coding doesn't make O(1) access possible because cdr-coded conses aren't always contiguous, only often.
2019-12-16T17:52:39Z ggole: It might be possible for the encoding to support skipping the contiguous part in one step - although I don't think the historical implementations did that.
2019-12-16T17:53:03Z pjb: right, it's missing a chunk length…
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2019-12-16T18:52:51Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: please publish pre-release binaries often
2019-12-16T18:53:26Z fe[nl]ix: that way we can use those in our CI setups and do some QA for you
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2019-12-16T18:54:51Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: what is the context? I'm not publishing prebuilt ecl binaries, mainly because ecl is dynamically linked with various system libraries
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2019-12-16T18:55:27Z fe[nl]ix: the context is CI
2019-12-16T18:55:36Z jackdaniel: and that would lead to multiple support requests: my ecl doesn't start, because glibc bla bla, or - can't start ecl because libgc is missing
2019-12-16T18:56:27Z fe[nl]ix: basically all my projects fail on ECL because the only evailable binary is too old
2019-12-16T18:56:28Z jackdaniel: in other words that would be counterproductive. otoh building ecl is as "easy" as ./configure && make && make install
2019-12-16T18:57:18Z jackdaniel: if I may ask, where did you get prebuilt ecl binary for ci?
2019-12-16T18:57:34Z jackdaniel: (if not from the system repositories)
2019-12-16T18:58:32Z jackdaniel: in theory we could build a static binary, but that would be by no means representative functionality-wise
2019-12-16T18:59:05Z fe[nl]ix: I think Luis might have compiled it
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2019-12-16T18:59:47Z fe[nl]ix: if you get support requests you can easily WONTFIX, etc...
2019-12-16T19:00:01Z fe[nl]ix: see https://github.com/luismbo/cl-travis/blob/master/install.sh#L204
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2019-12-16T19:01:40Z jackdaniel: sure, my point is that the average case is that it won't work, what will give a very bad impression. otoh of course I'd appreciate additional qa
2019-12-16T19:02:22Z jackdaniel: I mean that i.e if I build ecl on my desktop and publish it, it will be quite likely, that it won't work on your CI
2019-12-16T19:03:04Z fe[nl]ix: it's easy to setup a Ubuntu chroot
2019-12-16T19:03:18Z scymtym usually builds the implementation as part of the CI process
2019-12-16T19:03:30Z fe[nl]ix: basically all CI environments are using Ubuntu 18.04 LTS
2019-12-16T19:03:45Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: isn't it an option to get a source and compile it automatically?
2019-12-16T19:04:08Z fe[nl]ix: no because the free tier has low CPU time limits
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2019-12-16T19:04:48Z fe[nl]ix: fine for most projects but compiling ECL would overrun
2019-12-16T19:05:31Z buffergn0me: fe[nl]ix: Is this GitHub specific?
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2019-12-16T19:06:03Z jackdaniel: actually ecl compilation time is not that long (unlike the time ecl compiler + gcc take to compile  things). either way, I'll think about it; we are closing to the release btw
2019-12-16T19:06:39Z fe[nl]ix: Travis has a hard 10 minute limit
2019-12-16T19:11:02Z jackdaniel: accidently that coincides with something I want to do for a long time -- set up ci for ecl itself, publishing artifacts shouldn't be a problem when I get to it, the problematic part is the "when I get to it"
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2019-12-16T19:11:23Z jackdaniel: n.b, ECL compilation time on my host: ./make.sh /tmp/xxx  118,44s user 7,35s system 147% cpu 1:25,42 total
2019-12-16T19:11:28Z jackdaniel: below 2 minutes
2019-12-16T19:11:50Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: ^ (on default settings) -- I suppose travis has slower machines though
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2019-12-16T19:32:49Z phoe: disposable VMs, so I do not expect them to be very fast
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2019-12-16T19:33:17Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: I saw you pushed a commit into split-sequence - did it fix the warnings in question? (also, sorry for screwing up the function order during making the rewrite)
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2019-12-16T19:49:54Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: disposable VMs with one virtual CPU and overall very slow
2019-12-16T19:50:34Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: no problem. there's still https://github.com/sharplispers/split-sequence/issues/17
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2019-12-16T19:51:15Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: can you please add phoe to the developer team of sharplispers/split-sequence ?
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2019-12-16T19:53:33Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: ok
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2019-12-16T19:57:45Z Xach: i can only invite. phoe will have to accept.
2019-12-16T19:58:03Z fe[nl]ix: thanks
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2019-12-16T20:04:11Z ebrasca: Is there some version control system writen in pure cl?
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2019-12-16T20:07:17Z Xach: ebrasca: I don't think I've seen one. MCVS was a project in CL that was a layer on top of CVS.
2019-12-16T20:07:40Z Xach wonders where MCVS/MetaCVS sources are these days
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2019-12-16T20:08:54Z Xach: Hmm, I guess on common-lisp.net!
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2019-12-16T20:26:34Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: OK, I'll do that
2019-12-16T20:26:41Z phoe: Xach: thank is an honor, thank you
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2019-12-16T20:39:36Z jackdaniel: processing results: honor you
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2019-12-16T20:55:08Z pjb: ebrasca: ISTR somebody rewrote the core git in CL…
2019-12-16T20:56:45Z vms14: there is a difference in performance while using let vs let*?
2019-12-16T20:57:18Z pjb: nope.
2019-12-16T20:57:19Z jackdaniel: no, you need to compute initialization forms anyway
2019-12-16T20:57:58Z jackdaniel: (i.e you can't parallelize them in case of LET in Common Lisp, so it is only about the names in the environment )
2019-12-16T20:58:28Z jackdaniel: n.b lparallel gives you parallel let afair
2019-12-16T20:59:27Z vms14: and if I'm using let* when I only need one of those "variables" being with let* and the others doesn't matter, it's more "correct" using two lets?
2019-12-16T20:59:52Z jackdaniel: no, some people prefer it though
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2019-12-16T21:00:10Z jackdaniel: other side of the coin is that using single let* reduces unnecessary nesting
2019-12-16T21:01:17Z vms14: nesting mapcar functions is a code smell?
2019-12-16T21:01:35Z jackdaniel: what do you mean?
2019-12-16T21:02:16Z jackdaniel: (mapcar (lambda (o) (mapcar (lambda (p) (mapcar (lambda (f) ... ?
2019-12-16T21:02:21Z vms14: yes
2019-12-16T21:02:28Z pjb: why would it?
2019-12-16T21:02:32Z Bike: well, not much you can do about that
2019-12-16T21:02:41Z Bike: (mapcar f (mapcar g ...)) is kinda silly, though
2019-12-16T21:02:54Z eeeeeta: common-lisp.net seems kinda cool
2019-12-16T21:03:05Z jackdaniel: there is flet and labels to mitigate that
2019-12-16T21:03:08Z jackdaniel: s/is/are/
2019-12-16T21:03:29Z vms14: for example my last function "divide-frames"
2019-12-16T21:03:30Z eeeeeta remembers wondering why a function was consing, only to discover it used mapcar instead of mapc
2019-12-16T21:03:31Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/z33g2xtcWj/
2019-12-16T21:04:00Z jackdaniel: map-over-map-applied-to-loop, wow ;)
2019-12-16T21:04:00Z vms14: it has two mapcars and two loops to generate the list
2019-12-16T21:04:04Z vms14: xD
2019-12-16T21:05:03Z jackdaniel: can't you call get-frame inside the inner loop?
2019-12-16T21:05:32Z jackdaniel: (loop for i from 0 to 3 do (loop for j from 0 to (1- fn) (get-frames whatever))
2019-12-16T21:05:40Z jackdaniel: do after fn)
2019-12-16T21:06:24Z vms14: hmm idk, but seems logic
2019-12-16T21:06:37Z vms14: what I'm doing is first generate a bunch of lists with lists of (x y)
2019-12-16T21:07:20Z vms14: 4 lists with 3 lists, being the 4 lists the directions of the spriteset, and the 3lists the frames of every direction
2019-12-16T21:08:11Z eeeeeta: "code smell problems? just beat it with the MACROEXPAND-1 hammer until it all looks the same"
2019-12-16T21:08:17Z vms14: so the loops are creating stuff like ((0 0) (0 24) (0 48))
2019-12-16T21:08:51Z vms14: and the mapcar generate two pixmaps, one with the sprite and another with the mask
2019-12-16T21:08:57Z jackdaniel: once I saw a guy, who saw a lad, who saw two guys who were observing guy going down the street, and that guy was talking with a lad about number of guys who were observing the first lad
2019-12-16T21:09:11Z vms14: :O
2019-12-16T21:09:25Z jackdaniel: in other words, I'm lost with your explanation ;__)
2019-12-16T21:09:30Z vms14: yeah, sorry
2019-12-16T21:10:12Z vms14: nvm, it works, so meh
2019-12-16T21:10:42Z vms14: well I have to test it with different width and height to see if it really works fine
2019-12-16T21:12:59Z vms14: https://hastebin.com/witegiwuyu.m this is what the function gives
2019-12-16T21:13:49Z Bike: (mapcar (lambda (x) body) (loop for i from 0 to 3 collect form)) = (loop for i from 0 to 3 collect (let ((x form)) body)), no?
2019-12-16T21:14:33Z jackdaniel: yes, and that way both mapcars could be get rid of and you could cons much less
2019-12-16T21:15:31Z jackdaniel: sudo apt install git
2019-12-16T21:15:36Z jackdaniel: erm
2019-12-16T21:15:53Z vms14: I'll try to change it once it's finished
2019-12-16T21:16:57Z Bike: sensible enough
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2019-12-16T21:32:41Z ebrasca: pjb: Do you have link?
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2019-12-16T21:50:38Z vms14: :D
2019-12-16T21:50:42Z vms14: it's "done"
2019-12-16T21:50:44Z vms14: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-6UOYNBVg0
2019-12-16T21:53:27Z jackdaniel: vms14: heh, looks cool :-)
2019-12-16T21:56:58Z vms14: I had to finish that long time ago
2019-12-16T21:57:10Z vms14: the first time was written in C with xlib
2019-12-16T21:57:25Z vms14: now with clx and "finished" <3
2019-12-16T21:57:44Z vms14: it should accept any spriteset as long as they have 4 directions
2019-12-16T21:58:52Z vms14: but isn't really finished, since some wm seem to have troubles with that, because they try to "decorate" the window
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2019-12-16T22:00:06Z vms14: so I need to use redirection but then the wm will forget about the window, which means to move it I have to provide a way to do it
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2019-12-16T22:12:24Z pjb: ebrasca: sorry, searching for anything + git on google doesn't give good results…
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2019-12-16T22:26:58Z vms14: now it's a party
2019-12-16T22:27:01Z vms14: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ-It9QDLIM
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2019-12-16T22:39:44Z Xach: drmeister: do you use cl-notebook?
2019-12-16T22:44:53Z drmeister: Xach: I don't - what is it?  Is it a jupyter notebook library?
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2019-12-16T22:51:34Z vms14: drmeister: https://github.com/inaimathi/cl-notebook
2019-12-16T22:51:58Z vms14: it creates a server and you use the browser to edit files
2019-12-16T22:52:33Z vms14: I'd like to see emacs with common lisp as "scripting" language
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2019-12-16T22:52:47Z vms14: well, emacs written entirely in common lisp
2019-12-16T22:52:49Z drmeister: Yeah - but it doesn't say jupyter - so it could be jupyter but not say so.   I'd have to run it to find out.
2019-12-16T22:53:31Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: also https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/539
2019-12-16T22:54:07Z vms14: drmeister: you can see a demo there
2019-12-16T22:54:07Z vms14: https://vimeo.com/97623064
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2019-12-16T22:56:40Z drmeister: Thank you.
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2019-12-16T22:58:12Z Xach: drmeister: it's broken right now and i'm going to have to drop it from quicklisp soon if it isn't fixed. i'm not sure if anyone will notice/care.
2019-12-16T22:58:29Z Xach: the author has not responded to bug reports in a while
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2019-12-16T23:42:23Z pjb: vms14: have a look at hemlock
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2019-12-16T23:45:21Z vms14: pjb: :O
2019-12-16T23:45:26Z vms14: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemlock_(editor)
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2019-12-16T23:47:34Z vms14: https://common-lisp.net/project/phemlock/
2019-12-16T23:47:36Z vms14: ty pjb
2019-12-16T23:47:53Z vms14: I'll try to see if I can install it
2019-12-16T23:48:05Z vms14: did you tried it pjb ?
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2019-12-16T23:56:55Z drmeister: Xach: nope - we don’t use it.
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2019-12-17T00:11:31Z pjb: vms14: you can also use it within Clozure CL.app on macOS.
2019-12-17T00:17:32Z pjb: vms14: I used it in Clozure CL.app sometimes.
2019-12-17T00:19:15Z vms14: I don't have a mac
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2019-12-17T00:19:20Z vms14: and I see it uses clim
2019-12-17T00:19:35Z vms14: clim needs threads to work properly, or that's what I think
2019-12-17T00:20:21Z vms14: I wanted something like emacs-nox11
2019-12-17T00:21:06Z vms14: I always wanted to know how to handle text in a text editor, so maybe I'll try with the time
2019-12-17T00:21:19Z vms14: with lisp you can do almost everything you want :D
2019-12-17T00:21:49Z vms14: but I need to learn much more about programming and about lisp before that
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2019-12-17T00:26:12Z pjb: vms14: perhaps you'd want to start with simpliers editors first>
2019-12-17T00:26:14Z pjb: ?
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2019-12-17T00:26:30Z pjb: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.ed.ed:ed)
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2019-12-17T00:27:27Z pjb: (com.informatimago.small-cl-pgms.sedit:sedit)
2019-12-17T00:27:28Z pjb: etc.
2019-12-17T00:33:04Z ebrasca: What about cxxxr/lem or Climacs ?
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2019-12-17T00:34:32Z LdBeth: vms14: you can start with beach's flexichain protocol https://common-lisp.net/project/flexichain/
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2019-12-17T00:36:16Z LdBeth: Also, TECO is an early days editor I find very interesting.
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2019-12-17T00:44:48Z p_l: TECO is both spiritual great-grandpa of Vi, and something Vi can only dream of reaching ;)
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2019-12-17T00:44:59Z Irenes[m]: oh yeah TECO is a fascinating piece of history
2019-12-17T00:45:39Z Irenes[m]: I remember in the late 90s I researched it for fun, and discovered that my local newspaper had been using it. like, for the reporters, not for engineers.
2019-12-17T00:45:46Z Irenes[m]: although I don't know if they still were at that point
2019-12-17T00:47:00Z p_l: it was for a time available on VMS, though I believe DEC TECO was at some point made a paid add-on, with the response to the outrage being "it's not an editor, it's a programming langauge"
2019-12-17T00:47:20Z p_l: DEC TECO was a bit simpler and less capable than MIT TECO
2019-12-17T00:47:47Z LdBeth: but where can I find spec on ITS TECO?
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2019-12-17T00:49:41Z p_l: there's no official spec, only source
2019-12-17T00:49:58Z p_l: and INFO files, but I don't remember how detailed they were, i mostly used EMACS
2019-12-17T00:52:00Z p_l: it's a quite well commented (from cursory look) 23450 line assembly file
2019-12-17T00:52:51Z LdBeth: seems I need to start learning PDP asm
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2019-12-17T00:56:51Z p_l: pdp-6/10 is very unique beast among other PDP
2019-12-17T00:57:12Z p_l: though it was, in fact, designed partially for lisp
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2019-12-17T00:59:18Z p_l: (single processor word holding single CONS cell was part of proposed design requirements for PDP-6 from MIT)
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2019-12-17T01:01:29Z vms14: I was looking at terminfo
2019-12-17T01:01:35Z vms14: I died
2019-12-17T01:01:42Z vms14: also found that https://github.com/npatrick04/terminfo/blob/master/terminfo.lisp
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2019-12-17T01:13:34Z LdBeth: actually you don't need that for line based editors
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2019-12-17T01:16:20Z vms14: LdBeth: I was going only to play around, but not with that
2019-12-17T01:16:27Z vms14: I was going to assume a vt100
2019-12-17T01:16:56Z vms14: pjb: told me to use ecma 48 or termcap/terminfo
2019-12-17T01:17:38Z vms14: but I guess I'll go to try ecma which is almost the same stuff as assuming a vt100 since vt100 implements part of ecma
2019-12-17T01:17:53Z pjb: For line-based editors such as ed or sedit which I mentionned earlier, you can just use *terminal-io*.
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2019-12-17T01:20:24Z no-defun-allowed: Do any implementations have optimised arrays for the type (or null (unsigned-byte n))?
2019-12-17T01:21:35Z Bike: doubt it. you could just add another bit and make whatever number mean nil, though.
2019-12-17T01:22:11Z no-defun-allowed: I guess so.
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2019-12-17T01:51:24Z Bike: with how most implementations represent objects, any upgraded element type that includes nil is either going to be T, or will have to do some similar encoding
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2019-12-17T02:49:54Z vms14: how I print stuff to the swank server?
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2019-12-17T02:56:07Z Bike: what do you  mean?
2019-12-17T02:58:55Z vms14: I have the swank server in another window
2019-12-17T02:58:58Z vms14: and I see the output
2019-12-17T02:59:01Z vms14: I want to print there
2019-12-17T03:00:22Z vms14: I've tried with *terminal-io* *debug-io* *error-output* but nope
2019-12-17T03:00:51Z vms14: I use slime-connect so I start the swank server "manually" before connecting slime
2019-12-17T03:02:31Z LdBeth: What I can think of is save terminal-io before loading swank so it can be accessed later
2019-12-17T03:02:53Z vms14: but there is no way to print there now?
2019-12-17T03:03:14Z vms14: the cl-ncurses does it
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2019-12-17T04:12:53Z pjb: vms14: Now think about it.  With swank, for each slime-REPL, and for each time you type C-x C-e in a lisp buffer (slime-eval-last-expression) there's a CL thread that is created and which output is redirected to slime.
2019-12-17T04:13:05Z pjb: vms14: so how can you print to this output?
2019-12-17T04:14:19Z pjb: Notably, the threads (and therefore the redirection of *standard-output*) created by C-x C-e is usually very temporary. As soon as the expression is finished, and the output copied in the emacs buffer, this thread is killed.
2019-12-17T04:14:51Z pjb: For slime-repl, they are a little more persistent, but at any time the user may kill the buffer and M-x slime again a new repl to the same lisp image.
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2019-12-17T04:16:13Z pjb: vms14: see https://github.com/informatimago/emacs/blob/master/slime-rpc.el
2019-12-17T04:16:37Z pjb: you could open a buffer and insert into it the output you'd want to write. See the eval-in-emacs example, line 64.
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2019-12-17T04:18:12Z pjb: vms14: now, in the case of slime-repl, you can do the following: (defparameter cl-user::*slime-repl-1* *standard-output*) RET in the slime-repl, and then: (bt:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*standard-output*  cl-user::*slime-repl-1*)) (sleep 10) (print 'hi) (terpri)))) ; but no garantee that you won't kill the slime buffer in the meantime…
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2019-12-17T04:20:19Z pjb: vms14: nothing prevents you to write a swank contribution library, using slime-rpc, to nicely present output to the emacs user.  You could have nice operators with (with-new-emacs-output-buffer (print 'hi)) or (with-query-io-from-emacs (format *query-io* "Please enter a number: ") (read *query-io*))
2019-12-17T04:20:44Z pjb: The later would use the minibuffer to query input from the user.
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2019-12-17T04:34:38Z shangul: Xach, Unfortunately, no
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2019-12-17T05:06:09Z smokeink: does anyone have a backup of this file ?  http://www.laas.fr/~emarsden/tmp/lsm2003-emarsden.pdf  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/5ikhmcQfINU/hXYmnmrk8AgJ
2019-12-17T05:07:55Z Bike: in a tmp directory? that might be an issue
2019-12-17T05:11:36Z Bike: well, eric marsden is still around, maybe you could email em
2019-12-17T05:12:50Z Bike: there's also an xref chapter in the cmucl manual, i think
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2019-12-17T06:23:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-17T07:38:27Z shangul: How to install a library and then load it with (asdf:load-system :somelib) ?
2019-12-17T07:39:35Z pjb: You cannot.
2019-12-17T07:39:42Z pjb: asdf:load-system doesn't load a library.
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2019-12-17T07:41:30Z pjb: If you remove the constraint of using asdf:load-system, then you can install a library using wget and tar usually. Put in in any directory you want, and (push #P"/path/to/the/directory/you/want/path/to/the/directory/where/the/asd/is/stored/" asdf:*central-registry*)  (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :somelib)
2019-12-17T07:42:30Z pjb: alternatively, if you use quicklisp, you can put it in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/  and then use (ql:quickload :somelib) ; which has the added bonus that if the somelib library has known dependencies, quicklisp will download, install and load them automatically.
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2019-12-17T07:58:28Z phoe: > asdf:load-system doesn't load a library.
2019-12-17T07:58:31Z phoe: pjb: what
2019-12-17T07:59:01Z phoe: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/53f72684bbab75ae375673634e24305e0d276943/operate.lisp#L149
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2019-12-17T07:59:31Z phoe: (asdf:load-system x) calls (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op x)
2019-12-17T08:00:06Z shangul: pjb, https://termbin.com/7tbs
2019-12-17T08:00:57Z phoe: shangul: you must push #P"/home/shangul/common-lisp/" there
2019-12-17T08:01:05Z phoe: it must end with a slash
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2019-12-17T08:01:25Z phoe: #p"/foo" and #p"/foo/" are distinct in CL
2019-12-17T08:01:54Z shangul: aha
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2019-12-17T08:03:00Z phoe: also, if you want absolute simplicity, download Quicklisp and use ql:quickload for automatically downloading stuff from the Quicklisp internet repository; for stuff that isn't there, use ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ that is automatically added to ASDF
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2019-12-17T08:12:45Z earl-ducaine: vms14: The Craft of Text Editing is an excellent guide to the internals of an Emacs like editor. https://www.finseth.com/craft/
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2019-12-17T08:14:07Z elderK: Good evening, everyone! :)
2019-12-17T08:14:24Z earl-ducaine: Unfortunately aimed at the implementing one in C and for editing the C language, but still applicable to Emacs/Hemlock/Zmacs which all share the same basic design approach.
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2019-12-17T08:22:24Z pjb: phoe: shangul: sorry, I thought that load-system only loaded the asd file.
2019-12-17T08:29:35Z phoe: pjb: you meant load-asd
2019-12-17T08:29:56Z phoe: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/912e57b9495151aecfe39def208123ffd806d343/find-system.lisp#L116
2019-12-17T08:30:09Z phoe: this one only loads the ASD file and creates the system definition object, that is correct
2019-12-17T08:30:27Z phoe: but asdf:load-system is a shortcut for asdf:oos 'load-op
2019-12-17T08:30:31Z phoe: shangul: ^
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2019-12-17T08:41:13Z earl-ducaine: LdBeth: The original ITS docs for TECO can be found https://github.com/PDP-10/its , check the docs folder, e.g. doc/_teco_/tecord.1132
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2019-12-17T09:51:52Z DarkUnicorn: hello!
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2019-12-17T09:57:28Z pjb: hello!
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2019-12-17T10:01:18Z beach: Hello DarkUnicorn.
2019-12-17T10:01:47Z no-defun-allowed: Hello DarkUnicorn
2019-12-17T10:02:19Z beach: DarkUnicorn: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2019-12-17T10:06:28Z DarkUnicorn:  beach: yes! It's been a long time since I was in IRC and I was never in #list, I think :)
2019-12-17T10:06:46Z beach: #lisp, you mean?
2019-12-17T10:06:47Z DarkUnicorn: *lisp, sorry
2019-12-17T10:07:08Z beach: So what brings you here now?
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2019-12-17T10:07:59Z DarkUnicorn: I'm reading "Land of Lisp" and hope that I finally get into the language. I wanted to use it for a long time, but never came to actually do it.
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2019-12-17T10:12:44Z beach: DarkUnicorn: OK, welcome then.  You can ask questions here, or if they are truly trivial, #clschool might be preferable.
2019-12-17T10:13:07Z DarkUnicorn: beach: Thank you for the nice welcome!
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2019-12-17T10:13:26Z beach: Sure.
2019-12-17T10:13:44Z DarkUnicorn: I think I will mostly idle around for now as I have not much time for lisp in my day-job...
2019-12-17T10:14:26Z beach: That's fine too.
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2019-12-17T10:16:31Z DarkUnicorn: beach: So what is your lisp background?
2019-12-17T10:17:20Z beach: Mine?  I learned Lisp at the university a long time ago.
2019-12-17T10:17:42Z shangul: phoe, I have the same problem anyway
2019-12-17T10:20:15Z DarkUnicorn: beach: And are you still using it? Professinally or as a hobby?
2019-12-17T10:21:01Z beach: DarkUnicorn: I use it in my work.
2019-12-17T10:21:56Z shangul: https://termbin.com/5il7
2019-12-17T10:21:58Z shangul: phoe, ^
2019-12-17T10:22:03Z DarkUnicorn: beach: What are you working?
2019-12-17T10:22:22Z beach: DarkUnicorn: I do CS research.
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2019-12-17T10:23:37Z no-defun-allowed: shangul: You would need to install ltk then.
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2019-12-17T10:24:46Z shangul: yeah that's what I'm trying to do now
2019-12-17T10:24:47Z DarkUnicorn: beach: programming language related research or another field?
2019-12-17T10:24:55Z shangul: I really need quicklisp
2019-12-17T10:25:03Z beach: DarkUnicorn: Here is an example: metamodular.com/SICL/generic-dispatch.pdf
2019-12-17T10:25:17Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed, you probably should install it.
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2019-12-17T10:27:10Z DarkUnicorn: beach: cool!
2019-12-17T10:27:30Z shangul: no-defun-allowed, What do Lispians mean by "installing"? I can't find any instructs in docs on this. Is it just coping files to a directory and add that path to asdf?
2019-12-17T10:27:51Z no-defun-allowed: There are instructions on https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
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2019-12-17T10:28:43Z shangul: no-defun-allowed, instructions about installing quicklisp or a library?
2019-12-17T10:29:02Z no-defun-allowed: The former.
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2019-12-17T10:30:07Z no-defun-allowed: To get some idea of why Quicklisp is probably good and how dependencies tend to "blow up", you might want to skim the Linux from Scratch book, which demonstrates manual dependency tracking quite well.
2019-12-17T10:30:50Z pjb: shangul: yes.
2019-12-17T10:30:55Z no-defun-allowed: I mean, ltk probably calls some kind of portable process running library, and who knows what that uses.
2019-12-17T10:31:14Z no-defun-allowed: pjb: Do you honestly think that helps shangul?
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2019-12-17T10:34:11Z shangul: no-defun-allowed, I can't install quicklisp. 503
2019-12-17T10:34:47Z no-defun-allowed: Yikes.
2019-12-17T10:36:11Z shangul: Xach, ^
2019-12-17T10:36:27Z shangul: for now I'll install dependencies one by one
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2019-12-17T10:38:26Z shangul: :|
2019-12-17T10:38:51Z shangul: vgplot depends on cl-fad and that does not exist...
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2019-12-17T10:53:04Z Cymew: Quicklisp downloads just fine from here
2019-12-17T10:54:19Z Cymew: shangul: Was it a hicckup or are you behind some kind of filtering firewall?
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2019-12-17T11:02:27Z shangul: Cymew, Indeed I am behind a firewall but I don't know if it filters something or not
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2019-12-17T11:07:59Z Cymew: I'll try sending it to you.
2019-12-17T11:08:02Z shangul: Cymew, I have quicklisp.lisp
2019-12-17T11:08:30Z Cymew: Ok, so it blocks after you load it? That's harder to work around.
2019-12-17T11:08:38Z shangul: my problem's when I try to use (quicklisp-quickstart:install)
2019-12-17T11:09:06Z shangul: How to tell SBCL to use a http proxy?
2019-12-17T11:09:23Z shangul: Or should I change something in quicklisp.lisp?
2019-12-17T11:09:41Z Shinmera: the install function has a :proxy argument.
2019-12-17T11:09:56Z Shinmera: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/faq.html
2019-12-17T11:11:05Z shangul: I just ssh'ed to another computer out of my network and it worked fine, without proxy
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2019-12-17T11:11:33Z shangul: Shinmera, Thanks
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2019-12-17T11:14:13Z Cymew: Oh, there is a proxy setting. Nice. Good to know. Otherwise you usually can set proxy settings system wide, at least in most linux systems.
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2019-12-17T11:33:30Z shangul: \o/
2019-12-17T11:35:16Z shangul: Thank you all!
2019-12-17T11:37:30Z smokeink: sometimes proxychains is handy
2019-12-17T11:37:56Z Cymew: I hate those environments with obnoxious proxies.
2019-12-17T11:39:35Z no-defun-allowed: My school had some kind of script (proxy.pac) that a user would download, and it supposedly tried to load-balance over two servers by handing all even IPs to one server and odd to the other. You could still pick one and use the other half of the Internet from it, so it wasn't so bad.
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2019-12-17T11:47:51Z shangul: Can others open CLHS with https?
2019-12-17T11:48:12Z shangul: I've got a bad feeling about the network I'm on.
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2019-12-17T11:54:04Z shangul: nothing. forget it
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2019-12-17T12:20:41Z spacedbat: hello, long time lurking, now I'm on holidays I wanted to play a bit with sbcl 1.5.9 - I have it on a remote server so I'm running swank and using ssh port forwarding like I used to - but it doesn't work
2019-12-17T12:21:30Z spacedbat: upon running slime-connect, slime errors almost immediately with a message starting: error in process filter: make client process failed: Connection refused
2019-12-17T12:21:56Z spacedbat: emacs is then frozen until I long-press C-g
2019-12-17T12:22:50Z spacedbat: on the server side, nothing happens for a while and then: ;; swank:close-connection: end of file on #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "socket 127.0.0.1:4005, peer: 127.0.0.1:43780" {10045963D3}>
2019-12-17T12:23:29Z spacedbat: I can telnet to the port just fine, there's something listening on the other end
2019-12-17T12:24:18Z spacedbat: when I run the same versions of sbcl and swank locally this process just works, it appears to be something about the ssh tunnel
2019-12-17T12:25:19Z spacedbat: yet when I run a http server in the remote lisp image and use the same port forwarding, I can access it just fine
2019-12-17T12:27:21Z spacedbat: maybe I'm missing something obvious, or it is some interaction between swank and ssh, on recent versions of emacs/slime/sbcl
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2019-12-17T12:33:25Z smokeink: 1.5.9 had some bugs, try to compile the latest commit from github
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2019-12-17T12:35:04Z DarkUnicorn: so sbcl is the common lisp compiler these days?
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2019-12-17T12:38:16Z Shinmera: it is /a/ compiler.
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2019-12-17T12:41:31Z Xach: spacedbat: connection refused is a very specific error that i do not think is related to the version of sbcl.
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2019-12-17T12:43:15Z Xach: spacedbat: i've seen it happen sometimes when there is a mismatch in what processes think "localhost" means.
2019-12-17T12:43:30Z Xach: ipv6 sometimes comes into play
2019-12-17T12:44:16Z Posterdati: hi
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2019-12-17T12:44:31Z beach: DarkUnicorn: There are several very good, free Common Lisp implementations.  SBCL is probably the most commonly used by #lisp participants.
2019-12-17T12:44:39Z beach: Hello Posterdati.
2019-12-17T12:45:27Z Posterdati: please I have a problem with (uiop:getenv "CC") on OpenBSD, it always gets NIL. I placed and exported CC and CXX in .profile, .login and .bashrc and .bash_profile
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2019-12-17T12:46:28Z Posterdati: as effect of this, cffi uses cc which won't compile gsll and antik
2019-12-17T12:47:01Z spacedbat: Xach, smokeink: thanks for yoru input
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2019-12-17T12:49:38Z Posterdati: beach: any hints?
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2019-12-17T12:50:17Z Xach: Posterdati: what lisp are you using?
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2019-12-17T12:51:07Z Posterdati: Xach: sbcl
2019-12-17T12:51:39Z beach: Posterdati: Me?  I don't use foreign code at all.  Sorry.
2019-12-17T12:51:49Z Xach: Posterdati: you can set the value with (sb-posix:setenv "CC" "gcc" 1)
2019-12-17T12:51:53Z Posterdati: Xach: I patched ctoolchain.lisp under cffi to set *cc* to "egcc"
2019-12-17T12:51:53Z Xach: or whatever you want instead of "gcc"
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2019-12-17T12:52:18Z Posterdati: Xach: ah ok, thanks!
2019-12-17T12:53:39Z smokeink: Posterdati: also have a look at uiop:getenv , why does it fail (if nothing else works)
2019-12-17T12:58:57Z Posterdati: ok thanks
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2019-12-17T13:41:42Z spacedbat: OMG I had SWANK:*USE-DEDICATED-OUTPUT-STREAM* set to T
2019-12-17T13:42:05Z mercourisj: Is there a varible for the current package than I can bind in a let or some other form?
2019-12-17T13:42:14Z spacedbat: getting rid of that in .swank.lisp fixed it
2019-12-17T13:42:21Z mercourisj: I want a body to be executed in a different package
2019-12-17T13:42:45Z spacedbat: *PACKAGE*
2019-12-17T13:42:55Z mercourisj: ah, indeed it is
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2019-12-17T13:44:38Z Bike: keep in mind that if you have (let ((*package* whatever)) body), the package won't be bound until after the body is read
2019-12-17T13:45:45Z mercourisj: I think it should be OK, I'm going to try it now and see if it breaks everything :-D
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2019-12-17T15:12:32Z jmercouris: Bike: you are correct
2019-12-17T15:12:33Z minion: jmercouris, memo from pjb`: I would bet that even picolisp has (elt list index).  ACL2 (which is more a theorem proven than a programming language) also doesn't have arrays, and use lists to represent them, but that's only in the purpose of proving theorems.
2019-12-17T15:12:50Z jmercouris: pjb: it has something similar, it has nth
2019-12-17T15:13:09Z jmercouris: I have a snippet: http://dpaste.com/328SHY9
2019-12-17T15:13:16Z jmercouris: I don't understand why the let binding isn't working for the package
2019-12-17T15:13:40Z beach: jmercouris: It is working alright.
2019-12-17T15:13:56Z beach: jmercouris: The code in the body will be EXECUTED with the package bound.
2019-12-17T15:14:18Z beach: jmercouris: But the entire form is READ before it is executed.
2019-12-17T15:14:38Z beach: So the package won't be bound during the read.
2019-12-17T15:14:47Z jmercouris: beach: how to get around this?
2019-12-17T15:15:21Z jmercouris: do I have to use (in-package ...) before and after?
2019-12-17T15:15:32Z jmercouris: instead of binding within the let?
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2019-12-17T15:16:28Z beach: I don't think there is a single answer.  It depends on what you want to do.
2019-12-17T15:17:32Z jmercouris: the parent problem is this, I want to embed parenscript into my program without using package prefixes everywhere
2019-12-17T15:17:42Z Bike: usually we don't arrange things in a "this body needs to be in this package" way.
2019-12-17T15:17:43Z jmercouris: however, I don't want to :use parenscript for my main package
2019-12-17T15:18:08Z jmercouris: Bike: usually not, but I am embedding this code within code of another package
2019-12-17T15:18:27Z Bike: i mean, in package before and after would work, but maybe it's too ugly
2019-12-17T15:18:39Z jmercouris: I won't ever see it, it is part of a macro, so I am OK with that
2019-12-17T15:18:44Z jmercouris: I was thinking I could be clever and use a LET
2019-12-17T15:19:06Z Bike: the essential thing to understand is that *package* is bound before reading. you can't bind it at evaluation time and expect it to affect the reading of an inner form
2019-12-17T15:19:15Z Bike: that would entail reading and evaluation being interleaved, which is a big no
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2019-12-17T15:19:33Z jmercouris: ok, I see
2019-12-17T15:22:12Z Bike: you probably can't do it in a macro exactly
2019-12-17T15:22:33Z Bike: that is, if you expand to something like (progn (in-package ...) stuff-with-parenscript (in-package ...)), that entire progn form is all read in the same *package*
2019-12-17T15:23:01Z jmercouris: ... damn
2019-12-17T15:23:01Z pfdietz: Reading and evaling have to be kept separate in your mind.   It's possible to eval (or compile) things that were never read at all.
2019-12-17T15:23:35Z jmercouris: this is too hard for me to comprehend
2019-12-17T15:23:39Z jmercouris: how can you eval something that is not read?
2019-12-17T15:24:13Z pfdietz: Top level forms in a file are somewhat special, in that when loading a file forms are evaluated in order before the next is read.  There are also rules for compile.  See also EVAL-WHEN.
2019-12-17T15:24:32Z pfdietz: You can construct a form.  It's just Lisp data.
2019-12-17T15:25:08Z pfdietz: The reader constructs forms from a character sequence, but forms can be constructed other ways too.   Evaluation doesn't care.
2019-12-17T15:25:53Z jmercouris: hm, I see
2019-12-17T15:25:57Z jmercouris: I will need to spend more time on this
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2019-12-17T15:26:23Z pfdietz: Macroexpansion constructs forms that were not there in the program text, for example (although parts of the macroexpansion may have been).
2019-12-17T15:27:18Z pfdietz: When I test CL compilers, I churn out randomly constructed forms.   They don't go through the reader, but are passed directly to eval or compile (after wrapping in a lambda).
2019-12-17T15:28:07Z jmercouris: Are things not macroexpanded and THEN read?
2019-12-17T15:28:25Z pfdietz: No.  Macroexpansion occurs on Lisp data.  The reader is done with it by then.
2019-12-17T15:28:37Z jmercouris: its like a huge light bulb just went off
2019-12-17T15:28:44Z jmercouris: and so many bugs have finally started to make sense
2019-12-17T15:28:49Z pfdietz: READER macros are processed by the reader, but ordinary macros are not.
2019-12-17T15:28:54Z jmercouris: RIGHT RIGHT!
2019-12-17T15:28:58Z jmercouris: thats why they exist!
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2019-12-17T15:29:37Z dlowe: Hey, jmercouris got the lisp enlightenment
2019-12-17T15:29:49Z pfdietz: The other common misconception with macros is that they are expanded when your code is executed.
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2019-12-17T15:30:37Z pfdietz: They need not be: in the compiler, macros are expanded at compile time, not evaluation time.
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2019-12-17T15:31:11Z pfdietz: This means a macro cannot depend on a special variable that is bound in your code, around a use of the macro.
2019-12-17T15:34:06Z Bike: i feel like that one was a little confusing for the language designers too, given some of em thought compiler-let would be useful
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2019-12-17T15:36:58Z pfdietz: If you need to pass information down to macros nested inside other macros, the proper way to do that is with MACROLET (or SYMBOL-MACROLET) and using the environment argiment in macro functions to query the environment.
2019-12-17T15:37:44Z pfdietz: The erroneous way is for the surrounding macro to generate code that binds a special variable.
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2019-12-17T15:41:55Z Bike: anyway, not sure what do do about your specific problem, i'm afraid
2019-12-17T15:43:14Z pfdietz: Is that doing something to the string at macroexpansion time?
2019-12-17T15:44:43Z Bike: jmercouris's code? it's returning the string
2019-12-17T15:45:15Z Bike: ps:ps is a macro, i think
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2019-12-17T15:47:50Z pfdietz: Ok
2019-12-17T15:48:24Z Bike: it translates a CL-like language to javascript. as you can see, it treats (some-other-package:chain ...) as a function call, but ps:chain as a special operator
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2019-12-17T15:52:36Z Bike: maybe you could just make your-package:chain an alias for ps:chain, and so on
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2019-12-17T15:52:59Z pfdietz: import, you mean?
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2019-12-17T15:53:33Z Bike: yeah
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2019-12-17T15:56:51Z jgodbout: minion: registration, please?
2019-12-17T15:56:51Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=3c3208c4 will be valid until 16:00 UTC.
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2019-12-17T16:41:31Z Davd33: I didn’t know that it existed, but I was happy to find out about the function identity 😊
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2019-12-17T16:46:48Z pfdietz: It can be useful at times, usually as a function passed to other functions.
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2019-12-17T17:56:58Z boeg: Can anyone recommend a book that are kinda project focused, but we use lisp as hour toolbox, rather than just a "learn lisp" books. I have just read pratical common lisp and land of lisp, and the book on my lisp is common lisp recipes, but it kinda looks like a bit of the same deal as the two I just read, and I think it would be more exciting with a book that was a bit different now, but still would help cement what i've just
2019-12-17T17:56:59Z boeg: learned by
2019-12-17T17:56:59Z boeg: using it in a "proper project".
2019-12-17T17:57:06Z boeg: as our*
2019-12-17T17:57:26Z boeg: and the next book on my list*
2019-12-17T17:57:28Z boeg: damn ...
2019-12-17T17:57:28Z Xach: boeg: what counts as a "proper project" to you?
2019-12-17T17:57:37Z Shinmera: minion: tell boeg about paip
2019-12-17T17:57:38Z minion: boeg: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
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2019-12-17T17:58:22Z boeg: Xach: I guess what I mean where the goal isn't to learn lisp, but learning something else but where the tool of choice is lisp, if you get my meaning
2019-12-17T17:58:28Z boeg: Shinmera: I'll check it out!
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2019-12-17T17:58:44Z Xach: boeg: some of the Practical Common Lisp follow that paradigm
2019-12-17T17:58:56Z Xach: processing MP3 files may be a little dated, but it's something.
2019-12-17T17:59:30Z boeg: Xach: Sure, but it still felt more as a "task for learning lisp" rather than the other way around. Same with the games in land of lisp
2019-12-17T18:00:33Z Xach: I don't know of a CL book that fits that description, sorry.
2019-12-17T18:00:39Z boeg: No worries
2019-12-17T18:01:12Z Shinmera: the best book for real projects are... real projects!
2019-12-17T18:01:53Z Xach: Paradigms of AI Programming is a really great book and dense with info, but I don't think it is a "project first, lisp second" book either. it weaves teaching lisp in very nicely, though.
2019-12-17T18:02:24Z boeg: Shinmera: right, I just don't feel quite ready yet. I'd like some more hand holding in writing real code in lisp before starting on what I have lined up.
2019-12-17T18:02:40Z Shinmera: I meant read real projects
2019-12-17T18:02:41Z boeg: However I think that PAIP is what I'll go with
2019-12-17T18:02:45Z Xach: boeg: Many here (myself included) will be happy to help.
2019-12-17T18:02:45Z boeg: Shinmera: oh
2019-12-17T18:02:57Z boeg: Xach: yeah, thanks :)
2019-12-17T18:02:59Z Xach: boeg: stack overflow is pretty good for lisp answers too
2019-12-17T18:03:07Z dlowe: boeg: why not start contributing to some open source projects? The feedback you get will be very educational
2019-12-17T18:03:26Z Shinmera: there's a lot that would appreciate the help, too.
2019-12-17T18:03:30Z boeg: dlowe: perhaps ... any beginner-friendly common lisp project you have in mind?
2019-12-17T18:03:59Z dlowe: boeg: also, you might be interested in #clschool which is all about starting out in CL
2019-12-17T18:04:13Z boeg: dlowe: Ill check it out, thanks
2019-12-17T18:04:36Z dlowe: nothing I had in mind, no. Anything with open issues that looks interesting to *you*
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2019-12-17T18:05:34Z boeg: dlowe: sure
2019-12-17T18:07:57Z Shinmera: I'm very bad at estimating what would be good or interesting for a beginner, so I can't say either.
2019-12-17T18:08:57Z boeg: Shinmera: no worries, I think I'll start with PAIP and see how it goes for now
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2019-12-17T18:22:13Z Shinmera: I do have plenty of projects though and would be happy for any help on them :)
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2019-12-17T18:23:29Z nwoob: What makes a language object oriented? If I'm looking at a language which is new to me how can I determine if it supports OOP
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2019-12-17T18:25:06Z Xach: nwoob: if the marketing or introductory materials claim it is
2019-12-17T18:25:16Z Xach: but that is not a great topic of discussion for #lisp
2019-12-17T18:25:31Z Xach: We can discuss CLOS and things like that though!
2019-12-17T18:25:51Z nwoob: Got it, so in which channel can I get my question answered
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2019-12-17T18:26:27Z Xach: I don't know, sorry.
2019-12-17T18:26:39Z nwoob: Ok thanks :)
2019-12-17T18:26:40Z aeth: Maybe a general one? Like ##programming if it exists
2019-12-17T18:27:08Z nwoob: Yes, it does. Thank you
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2019-12-17T18:27:40Z aeth: Every language is going to have its own definitions.
2019-12-17T18:28:40Z nwoob: I understand that, that's why I want to know some key point to differentiate
2019-12-17T18:28:51Z Bike: each language is going to have its own key point
2019-12-17T18:28:54Z Bike: it's magical
2019-12-17T18:28:58Z dlowe: I don't think you will get the certainty you crave
2019-12-17T18:29:02Z Xach: When I was working on compositing code in Lisp, one inspiration was Alvy Ray Smith's documentation of how Altamira Composer worked internally. The documentation explained how they did it all in C, but it was clearly written in a very object-oriented style, despite C's relatively poor direct support for that style.
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2019-12-17T18:29:39Z boeg: Shinmera: You are welcome to send me a link or two and I'll see if there is something I'd like to and think I could help with
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2019-12-17T18:29:49Z boeg: (or 3 or 4 or whatever :P)
2019-12-17T18:29:52Z dlowe: I have also seen C++ written in a very object-oriented style, despite its extremely poor support.
2019-12-17T18:30:27Z phoe: nice
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2019-12-17T18:32:01Z Shinmera: boeg: https://github.com/shinmera and https://github.com/shirakumo
2019-12-17T18:33:31Z boeg: Shinmera: I'll check it out
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2019-12-17T18:42:08Z Xach: I felt the same way when jwz talked about working with "objects" in C - he meant more in the Lisp sense, where anything is an object, and it's not a special thing with special syntax to send messages around.
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2019-12-17T18:57:53Z jackdaniel makes noises resembling "cl_object" in ECL's C code
2019-12-17T18:59:23Z Bike: "object" also means something different in C-where-you-pay-attention-to-the-standard, to make sure everyone's confused
2019-12-17T19:00:36Z nwoob: Bike what is the proper definition of an object
2019-12-17T19:00:49Z Bike: what, in C?
2019-12-17T19:00:56Z nwoob: No cl
2019-12-17T19:01:23Z nwoob: Also is everything really a list in Lisp?
2019-12-17T19:01:35Z Xach: nwoob: in CL, an object is any Lisp datum.
2019-12-17T19:01:36Z Bike: no, many things are not lists.
2019-12-17T19:01:46Z vms14: xD
2019-12-17T19:01:57Z nwoob: :D
2019-12-17T19:02:27Z Bike: numbers are not, for instance
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2019-12-17T19:02:55Z Bike: i don't think the glossary defines "datum". it's kind of hard since anything the program can deal with is a "datum"
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2019-12-17T19:03:01Z Bike: objects are things you can pass to functions
2019-12-17T19:03:06Z Bike: and return from functions. i guess.
2019-12-17T19:03:32Z nwoob: Pass to function like parameters?
2019-12-17T19:03:43Z Bike: yeah.
2019-12-17T19:04:06Z nwoob: But we can pass parameters to functions in pure functional programming too
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2019-12-17T19:05:10Z Bike: The meaning of "object" in common lisp is not really about object oriented programming.
2019-12-17T19:05:18Z Xach: It is more like object as in a thing
2019-12-17T19:05:23Z Bike: Stuff
2019-12-17T19:05:55Z nwoob: Ok
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2019-12-17T19:09:43Z Bike: lisp is "object oriented" in that it has generic functions and multimethods that can do different things depending on the classes of their arguments. "ad hoc polymorphism", if you want something you can look up
2019-12-17T19:10:13Z nwoob: Sure
2019-12-17T19:10:16Z nwoob: I'll
2019-12-17T19:10:32Z Bike: it's not so much "object oriented" in the sense of smalltalk, where a program's behavior consists of methods that are tied to objects
2019-12-17T19:10:58Z Bike: or messages passed between objects
2019-12-17T19:11:11Z vms14: isn't everything an object in lisp?
2019-12-17T19:11:21Z Xach: vms14: every lisp datum!
2019-12-17T19:11:39Z Shinmera: values aren't an object, for instance.
2019-12-17T19:11:41Z Bike: Everything is an object, but that "object" may not be the same kind of thing a person has in mind when they say "object-oriented".
2019-12-17T19:11:57Z Shinmera: or rather, values isn't an object.
2019-12-17T19:12:06Z dlowe: "what does object oriented MEAN" has no universally approved answer, has never converged, and arguing over it is pointless.
2019-12-17T19:12:42Z aeth: there are some things that people include in their OOP definition lists that CLOS doesn't have, like encapsulation.
2019-12-17T19:13:05Z Shinmera: how does it not have that
2019-12-17T19:13:07Z pjb: vms14: all lisp values are an object, but there are different classes of objects, and you are not allowed to modify methods on standard generic functions for standard object classes.  You have to define your own generic functions.  In smalltalk, you can specifically replace system methods, any one of them.
2019-12-17T19:13:23Z Bike: You see, you first have to understand Aristotle, who
2019-12-17T19:13:32Z vms14: I never looked at smalltalk
2019-12-17T19:13:46Z aeth: Shinmera: afaik the only 'true' encapsulation (unless you do hacks with symbols) is via closures and the rest is by convention like private symbols and the % prefix
2019-12-17T19:13:50Z vms14: I was a bit interested because anyone talks so well about smalltalk and its oop
2019-12-17T19:13:53Z vms14: but meh
2019-12-17T19:13:59Z vms14: also I need to study CLOS
2019-12-17T19:14:01Z Bike: smalltalk is interesting.
2019-12-17T19:14:24Z Shinmera: aeth: what you're talking about is protection flags, not encapsulation.
2019-12-17T19:14:26Z pjb: OOP = encapsulation, abstraction, inheritance and polymorphism.
2019-12-17T19:14:38Z Shinmera: aeth: And protection flags can be circumvented in "traditional OOP" too.
2019-12-17T19:15:21Z pjb: In CL, encapsulation is not enforced.  When you have an object, and the name of one of its slots, you can always use the slot-value accessor to access it.
2019-12-17T19:16:13Z aeth: and then you can do slot-value with its-package::%%please-dont-use-this
2019-12-17T19:16:16Z pjb: But you can avoid shooting yourself in the foot, by using only exported symbols (no encapsulation there either, since you can always qualify non-exported symbols with :: instead of :), and use the provided public accessors, instead of accessing the "internals" of the  object.
2019-12-17T19:16:31Z pjb: Inheritance, we have it, even as multiple-inheritance.
2019-12-17T19:17:14Z pjb: Abstraction, we have it, even several classes of abstraction!  Classes, functions, macros, reader macros, etc.
2019-12-17T19:17:41Z pjb: And Polymorphism, we have it, with methods to generic functions. Note that methods are associated to functions, not to classes!
2019-12-17T19:18:37Z pjb: If you want a stronger encapsulation, you could write your own object system in CL, this is meta-linguistic abstraction.
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2019-12-17T19:20:19Z vms14: what about MOP?
2019-12-17T19:20:31Z vms14: I don't understand too much what really is
2019-12-17T19:20:52Z vms14: but I should study CLOS basics first. I don't event know how to use methods xD
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2019-12-17T19:23:20Z pjb: vms14: it's an add-on.  It let you introspect, modify or redefine the whole object system.
2019-12-17T19:23:47Z vms14: that's the only thing I know about, you can modify stuff
2019-12-17T19:33:34Z vms14: how you deploy a program that uses libraries with quicklisp?
2019-12-17T19:34:23Z vms14: you can load and compile the file and it will "charge" all that libraries, so there is no need to install quicklisp in other pc as long as you have that fasl?
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2019-12-17T19:37:32Z pjb: vms14: yes, there are provisions to do something like that. I don't know them, read the quicklisp user manual.
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2019-12-17T19:55:37Z nirved: boeg: for a book which is project focused, and uses CL, you might want to check out "Professional Automated Trading" by Eugene Durenard
2019-12-17T19:56:34Z boeg: nirved: thanks ill check it out !
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2019-12-18T04:53:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-18T04:59:44Z gendl: top o' the mornin beach
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2019-12-18T05:02:35Z beach: Early bird ...
2019-12-18T05:08:12Z gendl: i'm a late cat. midnight here. two hours past my bedtime. When I see beach's "good morning" it's always a red flag that i've blown my bedtime. :|
2019-12-18T05:08:54Z gendl: on that note goodnight to me and have a productive & enjoyable day to you..
2019-12-18T05:09:15Z beach: 'night gendl.
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2019-12-18T06:15:00Z shangul: Any suggestion for a interface to gnuplot?
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2019-12-18T06:50:06Z shangul: an*
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2019-12-18T07:01:10Z shangul: Where can I find docs for CLNUPlot?
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2019-12-18T08:55:18Z phoe: morning
2019-12-18T08:57:13Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2019-12-18T09:00:26Z elderK: Moin all :)
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2019-12-18T09:02:21Z phoe: Hey beach!
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2019-12-18T09:06:24Z beach: Hello elderK.
2019-12-18T09:08:02Z elderK: How are you doing today, beach?
2019-12-18T09:09:39Z beach: Me?  Quite well thank you.  I think I just worked out how to process return values in HIR code.
2019-12-18T09:09:50Z beach: What about yourself?
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2019-12-18T09:12:56Z elderK: Nice :) What is HIR?
2019-12-18T09:13:12Z elderK: I'm doing good, thank you for asking. Christmas leave :)
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2019-12-18T09:13:50Z beach: High-level Intermediate Representation, used by Cleavir.
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2019-12-18T09:14:55Z elderK: Odd question but how do you pronounce "Cleavir?" Like Cleave-eer? Or Clever?
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2019-12-18T09:15:33Z elderK: Or Cleaver? :D Cleaving things away, making the code efficient!
2019-12-18T09:15:39Z beach: Cleaver.
2019-12-18T09:15:54Z elderK: Thank you :)
2019-12-18T09:16:06Z beach: Goes well with SICL (pronounced sickle).
2019-12-18T09:16:20Z elderK: Aye, it does.
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2019-12-18T11:13:56Z Xach: It's getting down to the wire and http://report.quicklisp.org/2019-12-18/failure-report.html is still a bit rough
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2019-12-18T12:40:19Z ebrasca: Hi
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2019-12-18T12:49:56Z phoe: hey
2019-12-18T12:52:46Z Shinmera: Phew, I didn't break anything this time
2019-12-18T12:54:58Z phoe: Shinmera: what did you try brekaing
2019-12-18T12:55:01Z phoe: breaking*
2019-12-18T12:55:25Z Shinmera: I don't think I specifically try to break anything, my projects just usually end up that way.
2019-12-18T12:56:38Z heisig: Same here.  It seems I didn't even screw up my projects' dependencies this time.
2019-12-18T12:57:19Z phoe: I slowly begin to enjoy watching CCL catch fire and burn in all the different ways that I end up making it do so
2019-12-18T12:57:51Z shangul: Shinmera, It is always like this
2019-12-18T12:58:17Z shangul: Does CL to machine code compiler exist?
2019-12-18T12:58:38Z Shinmera: most implementations compile to native code.
2019-12-18T12:58:50Z shangul: "native"?
2019-12-18T12:58:56Z shangul: native relating to that machine?
2019-12-18T12:58:59Z Shinmera: yes
2019-12-18T13:00:16Z shangul: well, then why we have big programs(code+compiler+debugger+...) rather than small executables?
2019-12-18T13:00:47Z Shinmera: idunno, why do we have an operating system and glibc and all that?
2019-12-18T13:01:16Z heisig: shangul: You can even view the generated machine code, just try (cl:disassemble #'car).
2019-12-18T13:01:52Z heisig: But Lisp programs are so big because they include the entire Lisp runtime, including the compiler.
2019-12-18T13:04:13Z shangul: I here, am comparing this to C/C++ in my mind. You can run a C code(just C and standard libraries) everywhere. with or without OS and with any OS. well some say that C is just portable assembly
2019-12-18T13:04:22Z Shinmera: eh?
2019-12-18T13:04:29Z Shinmera: try running a standard c program without an os
2019-12-18T13:05:08Z Shinmera: most programs depend on a runtime, c and lisp are no different there.
2019-12-18T13:05:09Z shangul: I suppose it is possible but I don't know how much hard it is.
2019-12-18T13:05:19Z Shinmera: c just has the advantage that the runtime is in the os already
2019-12-18T13:05:24Z Shinmera: lisp does not have that luxury.
2019-12-18T13:05:41Z shangul: C is used to develop an OS
2019-12-18T13:05:48Z Shinmera: so what
2019-12-18T13:06:24Z phoe: so is Lisp, see mezzano
2019-12-18T13:06:44Z shangul: Shinmera, Does C have a runtime like you said when somebody is using it to code an OS?
2019-12-18T13:07:06Z Shinmera: no, but I said a /standard/ C program
2019-12-18T13:07:27Z shka__: /standard/ C can't even load libs
2019-12-18T13:07:48Z Shinmera: most C programs depend on the OS and other libraries to perform a variety of tasks. That's the runtime.
2019-12-18T13:07:48Z shka__: basicly whole unix or windows OS is a huge C runtime
2019-12-18T13:07:58Z Shinmera: The executables are only small because the runtime /is/ the os.
2019-12-18T13:08:08Z Shinmera: so it's separate from the executable
2019-12-18T13:08:09Z shka__: exactly
2019-12-18T13:08:18Z shangul: okay I understood this
2019-12-18T13:08:23Z Shinmera: if you bundle linux + your C program it'll be pretty big too.
2019-12-18T13:08:38Z heisig: shangul: Imagine a Lisp program as a C program that also includes GDB, GCC, a garbage collector and a bunch of popular libraries.
2019-12-18T13:09:09Z shangul: Now one may ask why CL's runtime is not an OS
2019-12-18T13:09:24Z shka__: well, it can be
2019-12-18T13:09:29Z phoe: again, see mezzano
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2019-12-18T13:09:42Z Shinmera: and genera
2019-12-18T13:10:04Z Shinmera: anyway, most of the time it is not, because we like to make use of the effort others have made
2019-12-18T13:10:06Z phoe: but mostly because that space is already occupied - most people run Linux/Windows/macOS/BSDs so there's no more space left for another OS
2019-12-18T13:10:09Z shka__: but there is no comercial need for such systems so they are not prelevent
2019-12-18T13:10:14Z Shinmera: so, we like an OS that can run other software than lisp.
2019-12-18T13:11:03Z shangul: I see your point now
2019-12-18T13:11:53Z shangul: Java is like CL, too.
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2019-12-18T13:12:20Z shka__: Sun was actually working at some point on java OS AFAIK
2019-12-18T13:12:31Z Shinmera: there was a bytecode chip, even.
2019-12-18T13:12:46Z shka__: oh!
2019-12-18T13:13:00Z shangul: Well we had a Java platform on J2ME phones
2019-12-18T13:13:01Z shka__: cute hardware, i like that
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2019-12-18T13:16:17Z shka__: anyway, there is this weird assumption that C is the only language to write OS
2019-12-18T13:16:42Z shka__: there is nothing magical about C
2019-12-18T13:17:10Z shka__: it is just very widespread
2019-12-18T13:17:52Z shka__: but if history would took different turn, it is possible that pascal or something different would be a dominant language
2019-12-18T13:17:58Z shangul: Will my programs run faster if I run the compiled version of them
2019-12-18T13:18:03Z shangul: ?
2019-12-18T13:18:24Z shka__: … i guess
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2019-12-18T13:18:50Z shka__: i mean, usually interpreters execute code slower then CPU
2019-12-18T13:19:57Z shangul: CL is an exception, isn't it?
2019-12-18T13:20:05Z shka__: not really
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2019-12-18T13:20:26Z shangul: implementions compile the code as you type them or load them
2019-12-18T13:20:41Z shka__: yeah, but this is not interpretation
2019-12-18T13:20:46Z shka__: this is compilation
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2019-12-18T13:21:08Z shangul: an unusual one
2019-12-18T13:21:24Z shka__: currently yes, but progressivly less so
2019-12-18T13:21:40Z shka__: it seems that the rest of the world is catching up
2019-12-18T13:22:02Z shka__: see julia for instance
2019-12-18T13:22:31Z shka__: compiled dynamic languages slowly become the thing again
2019-12-18T13:22:39Z shka__: which brings joy to my heart :-)
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2019-12-18T14:10:24Z pfdietz: At least garbage collection is mainstream now.
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2019-12-18T14:25:11Z pfdietz: the borderline between compilation and interpretation has become blurred in a dynamic world.   Interpreters have JIT compilers, and compiled code can be dynamically interpreted (DynamoRIO and descendants).
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2019-12-18T14:32:47Z drdo: There's no excuse for having a slow interpreter for serious production use
2019-12-18T14:33:15Z p_l: drdo: python suggests otherwise
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2019-12-18T14:33:26Z drdo: p_l: That's the prime example
2019-12-18T14:33:29Z drdo: I don't understand it
2019-12-18T14:33:52Z drdo: There's so many people behind it and the official implementation is still this incredibly slow interpreter
2019-12-18T14:34:10Z p_l: there are two things in action
2019-12-18T14:34:32Z p_l: a) slow interpreter is permissible when you're majorly spending time *outside* of interpreted code
2019-12-18T14:35:02Z p_l: b) Python got ridiculous amounts of work into coming batteries-included that paid off by the time it hit 2.0
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2019-12-18T14:37:38Z drdo: p_l: Sure, that might make sense when it was developing
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2019-12-18T14:37:54Z drdo: But at this point with so much effort behind it it's amazing that they haven't fixed that
2019-12-18T14:38:25Z p_l: drdo: it's not exactly fixable and "it's good enough"
2019-12-18T14:38:33Z drdo: lisp has really quite fast implementations with a handful of people working on it
2019-12-18T14:38:42Z splittist: This would seem to indicate that speeding an interpreter would be premature optimization.
2019-12-18T14:38:47Z drdo: p_l: Why is it not fixable?
2019-12-18T14:39:19Z heisig: You cannot fix a broken (or worse, mostly absent) language specification once you have many users.  Python will never be fast.
2019-12-18T14:40:03Z heisig: You could make another language that is somewhat similar to Python and much faster.  But Python is a compiler writer's nightmare.
2019-12-18T14:40:32Z heisig: As in, the array reference operator could redefine itself on each call.
2019-12-18T14:41:15Z heisig: And here I dream again of re-releasing Common Lisp as Python 4...
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2019-12-18T14:45:20Z shka__: honestly, python is just not a good language
2019-12-18T14:45:45Z jackdaniel: that depends on criteria taken
2019-12-18T14:45:51Z p_l: python doesn't have a spec and is defined by behaviour of PyEvalFrameEx
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2019-12-18T14:46:09Z jackdaniel: i.e it is a good language to capture interest of people getting into programming
2019-12-18T14:46:30Z jackdaniel: not only that, people using python usually are happy while using it
2019-12-18T14:46:36Z Xach: It does not always have to be friendly to compilers to become faster. Sometimes it only takes multiple multibillion-dollar companies investing millions in making it faster.
2019-12-18T14:46:38Z jackdaniel: (at least some I know)
2019-12-18T14:46:46Z pjb: Well, the various python languages have reference documentation, and there are the PEPs.
2019-12-18T14:47:09Z pjb: It also has several diffrent implementations, including cypthon and pypy.
2019-12-18T14:47:26Z pjb: But indeed, that doesn't make it a good language.
2019-12-18T14:47:37Z shka__: jackdaniel: i personally don't know any person using more then just a python and really liking it better
2019-12-18T14:47:45Z pjb: Notably, if you need to write your code in C, to make anything run in python, what's the point?
2019-12-18T14:47:48Z jackdaniel: of course if anyone will ask me what I think about whitespace-based scope delimiters I will just laugh histerically ,)
2019-12-18T14:47:50Z shka__: but that's beside the point
2019-12-18T14:47:57Z shka__: and does not belong to #lisp
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2019-12-18T14:49:24Z pfdietz: Python uses camel case and OCaml uses snake case.   I am bemused.
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2019-12-18T14:50:31Z pfdietz: This is #lisp, so I will stick with kebab case.
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2019-12-18T14:55:22Z jackdaniel: enjoy lisp enlightenment: https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/ax7vbRL_460svvp9.webm (silly video starring a cat, nothing clickworthy:)
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2019-12-18T14:58:00Z shka__: jackdaniel: funny as heck
2019-12-18T14:58:25Z shka__: more then it should be
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2019-12-18T16:07:37Z Kabriel: python is the reason I started learning common lisp
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2019-12-18T16:08:17Z shangul: Kabriel, Sounds interesting. Could you tell us more about it?
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2019-12-18T16:15:14Z copec: Have you seen https://norvig.com/python-lisp.html Kabriel
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2019-12-18T17:30:34Z didi: Is it possible to create a vector using `make-array'?
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2019-12-18T17:31:55Z pjb: didi: of course.  What is a vector?
2019-12-18T17:32:07Z pjb: What is a matrix? What is a tensor?
2019-12-18T17:32:28Z didi: I'm talking about the type vector.
2019-12-18T17:32:53Z pjb: Again, what is the type vector? What is a vector?
2019-12-18T17:33:33Z Xach: didi: yes.
2019-12-18T17:33:42Z Xach: didi: an array with one dimension is a vector.
2019-12-18T17:34:04Z Xach: (typep (make-array 42) 'vector) => t
2019-12-18T17:34:38Z didi: (typep (make-array nil :initial-contents '(1 2)) 'vector) => nil
2019-12-18T17:34:48Z didi: :-(
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2019-12-18T17:35:14Z Xach: didi: the latter is a zero-dimensional array.
2019-12-18T17:35:21Z didi: Indeed.
2019-12-18T17:35:22Z Xach: vectors must have one dimension
2019-12-18T17:35:34Z didi: ic
2019-12-18T17:35:48Z Xach: Why are you :-( about the zero-dimensional array?
2019-12-18T17:35:48Z pjb: (typep (let ((data '(1 2))) (make-array (list (length data)) :initial-contents data)) 'vector) #| --> t |#
2019-12-18T17:36:08Z didi: Thank you all.
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2019-12-18T17:37:04Z pjb: And for the others who'd wonder, strings are vectors of characters: (typep (let ((data '(#\a #\b #\c))) (make-array (list (length data)) :element-type 'character :initial-contents data)) 'string) #| --> t |#
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2019-12-18T22:15:08Z reepca: is there a standard function for taking a subsequence of a vector of (unsigned-byte 8) and interpreting it as a big-endian number to produce an unsigned integer?
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2019-12-18T22:16:20Z reepca: I know I could use repeated multiplication and addition to do it myself, but I feel like there's almost certaianly a more efficient way
2019-12-18T22:16:43Z reepca: certainly*
2019-12-18T22:17:06Z pjb: reepca: no.
2019-12-18T22:17:16Z pjb: There's no such function in the standard.
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2019-12-18T22:18:23Z pjb: reepca: you can use dpb instead of multiplications and additions.  But then, a good compiler should generate the same code in both cases.  But then, perhaps our compilers are not good enough.
2019-12-18T22:20:30Z equwal: How can I get the DOCUMENTATION for a condition?
2019-12-18T22:20:52Z equwal: (probably something like (documentation 'my-condition 'some-identifier))
2019-12-18T22:20:56Z Bike: 'type
2019-12-18T22:21:01Z Bike: for 'some-identifier
2019-12-18T22:21:16Z Bike: oh, that's not actually defined
2019-12-18T22:21:19Z Bike: whatever, it'll probably work anyway
2019-12-18T22:21:28Z Bike: that's a silly oversight in the spec
2019-12-18T22:21:45Z equwal: It works on SBCL, which is all that matters for now.
2019-12-18T22:21:46Z pjb: There's no standard symbol defined to fetch the documentation of condition.  You may try 't
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2019-12-18T22:22:41Z Bike: actually i guess define-condition has to define a type name, so it works out
2019-12-18T22:22:46Z equwal: 't doesn't work, but type did
2019-12-18T22:22:47Z pjb: equwal: in sbcl, conditions are standard-class IIRC.
2019-12-18T22:23:08Z phoe: nope
2019-12-18T22:23:16Z phoe: not in SBCL; they are in CCL, ECL, ABCL
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2019-12-18T22:27:44Z equwal: On a related note, is there a way to get information about the slots?
2019-12-18T22:28:12Z equwal: e.g. a list of them, so I can map them?
2019-12-18T22:28:31Z Bike: you need the metaobject protocol for that
2019-12-18T22:28:49Z Bike: (and an implementation in which condition types are also classes and work with mop, which is probably all of them)
2019-12-18T22:29:09Z Bike: in sbcl it would be (sb-mop:class-slots (find-class 'whatever))
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2019-12-18T22:34:16Z equwal: Thanks a lot for the help.
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2019-12-18T23:46:44Z no-defun-allowed: Is it possible to have cl-unification substitute in the values of other variables in the value for find-variable-value? I realise this is impossible for bindings like ?x -> ?x, but I don't think my environments will have any circularity.
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2019-12-18T23:48:33Z reepca: is there any support in the standard for reading utf8-encoded strings (that is, converting bytes to strings)? Of course, there's code-char, but I don't think that would work very easily for a variable-width encoding like utf8...
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2019-12-18T23:49:44Z Xach: reepca: not in the standard.
2019-12-18T23:50:09Z Xach: reepca: i use trivial-utf-8 for conversion. sometimes i don't even use the library, i just copy its (few and small) functions to do the work.
2019-12-18T23:50:28Z Xach: reepca: and code-char works as you'd expect for integers of any appropriate size, not just 8 bit integers.
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2019-12-18T23:51:03Z p_l: reepca: the standard is agnostic on Unicode, it works pretty well, though it might do things you don't expect (for example, combining characters are still separate characters - as mandated by unicode). UTF-8 technically should be handled through external-format, and yes, trivial-utf-8 works well enough.
2019-12-18T23:51:12Z Xach: if you have a vector of utf-8 encoded octets, you would have to assemble some of them into the right integers, as you were getting at...
2019-12-18T23:51:14Z p_l: remember that UTF-8 is "transport" format for Unicode
2019-12-18T23:51:46Z Xach: p_l: that has somehow become de facto internal representation in many places too
2019-12-18T23:52:24Z p_l: Xach: mostly because for various reasons they have grandfathered too small character size, or never supported external formats in any reasonable way
2019-12-18T23:52:41Z p_l: or both
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2019-12-18T23:53:46Z p_l: so you have Java that is stuck with 16bit characters, C/C++ that either is stuck with 8bit or 16bit and where UTF-8 was partially designed to "not trip code that doesn't understand anything other than 8bit ASCII"
2019-12-18T23:54:27Z p_l: there's Python with "we can be compiled with 32bit characters but our whole stack for handling formats is broken so good luck"
2019-12-18T23:55:01Z p_l: I think closest to CL handling is Plan9/Go, which default to UTF-8 *externally* and use opaque type for characters internally
2019-12-18T23:56:39Z reepca: p_l: unfortunately the only way I can think of to use external-format to solve the problem would be to have the same file open twice at the same time, one with utf8 encoding and one binary. I don't suppose the streams can have the external-format changed halfway through?
2019-12-18T23:57:04Z p_l: reepca: if you don't mind the performance hit, you might want to consider flexi-streams
2019-12-18T23:57:17Z p_l: it can switch between different external formats etc.
2019-12-18T23:58:18Z reepca: I think I'll just grab a copy of those small functions Xach was talking about
2019-12-18T23:58:52Z Xach: flexi-streams is slower than babel, iirc. but if you only need utf-8, trivial-utf-8 is good.
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2019-12-18T23:59:54Z p_l: flexi-streams is useful for switching between more than just encodings, iirc
2019-12-19T00:00:24Z Xach: yes, it's nice for in-memory binary streams
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2019-12-19T00:00:35Z reepca: yeah, I used flexi-streams for my previous project
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2019-12-19T04:17:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-19T04:45:14Z jeosol: Good morning beach
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2019-12-19T04:57:54Z ebrasca: Good morning beach , jeosol!
2019-12-19T04:58:25Z jeosol: morning ebrasca!
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2019-12-19T07:40:09Z phoe: morniiiing
2019-12-19T07:42:25Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2019-12-19T07:45:11Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning phoe
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2019-12-19T12:24:04Z Shinmera: Xach: there's a lot of spam appearing on the planet lisp rss feed right now.
2019-12-19T12:24:32Z Shinmera: Looks like the CCL blog got hacked.
2019-12-19T12:28:44Z _death: or maybe they decided to pivot to provide news in korean
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2019-12-19T12:32:01Z Xach: I just saw it and removed it
2019-12-19T12:32:06Z Shinmera: Thanks!
2019-12-19T12:32:10Z Xach: And told the clozurians about it
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2019-12-19T13:33:16Z jmercouris: hi guys, I have a problem with lists I can solve, but I am trying to think of the most efficient way to do this
2019-12-19T13:33:35Z jmercouris: so, there is a list of elements "a" "b" "c" "d" "e"
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2019-12-19T13:34:07Z jmercouris: I want to take some elements that meet some criteria X and move them to the front of a new list, then I want to append the rest of the elements that meet some criteria Y to the end of the list
2019-12-19T13:34:16Z jmercouris: I could make a new list, however, that feels quite wasteful
2019-12-19T13:34:47Z jmercouris: maybe it isn't such a big deal here though, we're talking about a list of maximum 100 elements, run every several minutes
2019-12-19T13:35:59Z _death: it's not a big deal, but if you're dealing with elements with a priority, maybe a priority queue is a good idea
2019-12-19T13:36:04Z eeeeeta: Xach: wait, can anyone get added to planet lisp
2019-12-19T13:36:17Z jmercouris: I'm not dealing with priority
2019-12-19T13:36:29Z jmercouris: I guess a new list is the way to go...
2019-12-19T13:36:33Z jackdaniel: use sort with two predicates
2019-12-19T13:36:50Z jackdaniel: (cond (pred1) (pred2) (consistent-other-rule))
2019-12-19T13:37:06Z Xach: eeeeeta: peopole who write about common lisp can get on planet lisp!
2019-12-19T13:37:35Z eeeeeta: X
2019-12-19T13:37:37Z eeeeeta: oops
2019-12-19T13:37:41Z eeeeeta: Xach: ah, nice!
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2019-12-19T13:37:50Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: interesting idea, not sure how easy it would be in this context...
2019-12-19T13:37:52Z eeeeeta just needs to write something about CL now >_<
2019-12-19T13:38:11Z jmercouris: I did omit some details for the sake of simplicity... the criteria Y and X are further sorted by different functions...
2019-12-19T13:38:30Z jmercouris: so yes, I *COULD* do it, but I think we'd lose a lot of clarity in this case
2019-12-19T13:38:40Z jmercouris: but I will keep that idea of a cond within sort as another tool in my toolbox
2019-12-19T13:38:42Z jmercouris: very cool idea
2019-12-19T13:38:43Z jackdaniel: it doesn't sound like a complex problem, do whatever works for you
2019-12-19T13:39:08Z jmercouris: it doesn't sound complex, because I have given only 1/10 of the details to ask a very specific question
2019-12-19T13:39:34Z jackdaniel: so you are dealing wiht some complex problem?
2019-12-19T13:39:45Z jmercouris: yes
2019-12-19T13:39:56Z jackdaniel: well, good luck then
2019-12-19T13:39:58Z Xach: a list of 100 elements is so cheap to make and mess with it
2019-12-19T13:40:11Z Xach: thinking about the problem for more than 5 minutes will burn up all the time saved in thinking hard about it
2019-12-19T13:40:13Z ralt: jmercouris: if you use another list, and pop from the first to put on the second, then you're not necessarily wasting any memory
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2019-12-19T13:40:39Z Xach: you could make one billion 100 element lists per second for one thousand years before you use up 1gb of memory and 1 sec of cpu time on a modern computer
2019-12-19T13:40:50Z Xach: (numbers are not completely accurate)
2019-12-19T13:41:09Z jmercouris: OK :-D
2019-12-19T13:41:30Z Xach: to be sure, it is a sin to be wasteful
2019-12-19T13:41:37Z Xach: but thinking too hard is a form of waste also!
2019-12-19T13:41:39Z _death: well, a single SORT will work for multiple nonconflicting constraints
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2019-12-19T13:44:06Z _death: (and also a priority queue... hint hint)
2019-12-19T13:44:24Z jmercouris: ...? what is the hint here?
2019-12-19T13:45:16Z _death: if you can assign a priority to an element based on the constraints...
2019-12-19T13:45:36Z jmercouris: I can't assign a global priority without getting into a scoring system
2019-12-19T13:45:48Z jmercouris: I'm looking to just smush together two scoring systems with mutually exclusive elements
2019-12-19T13:45:59Z jmercouris: which unfortunately are sourced from a single set of elements :-D
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2019-12-19T13:50:21Z Xach: jmercouris: when you say "criteria X" and "criteria Y", without more info, that sounds like a score/priority value in different language
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2019-12-19T13:50:48Z Xach: you could say "criteria X" assigns an element a score of -1, "criteria Y" 1, sort the list, hey presto, x at the front, y at the back.
2019-12-19T13:51:32Z shka__: jmercouris: so you want to do topological sort?
2019-12-19T13:51:54Z _death: criteria Z given Y with 1 or 2
2019-12-19T13:52:12Z jmercouris: yes, but I would need to now make a data structure to store the score
2019-12-19T13:52:35Z Xach: not with :key option to sort you don't.
2019-12-19T13:52:36Z _death: are the criteria fixed?
2019-12-19T13:52:41Z shka__: jmercouris: https://github.com/ruricolist/serapeum/blob/f475e2a2f109f7245bfc3670e2c6b7774827e2a3/sequences.lisp#L938
2019-12-19T13:53:18Z jmercouris: the criteria are user input
2019-12-19T13:53:24Z shka__: if we are talking about 100 elements anything more complex is overkill
2019-12-19T13:53:43Z Xach: eeeeeta: please do write about common lisp!
2019-12-19T13:53:56Z jmercouris: all I've decided to do now is create two lists based on user input, and then sort those two lists based on two functions, and then append those into one product list
2019-12-19T13:54:36Z shka__: very well, i would simply create one ordering and roll with it
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2019-12-19T14:13:41Z Bike: Am I right in thinking that (funcallable-)standard-instance-access only works on instance slots? It's not mentioned in the description of the functions, but the page on the instance structure protocol says "direct access" is only possible for instance slots.
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2019-12-19T14:21:54Z phoe: what else could it work on?
2019-12-19T14:22:51Z Bike: slots with :class allocation
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2019-12-19T14:23:00Z beach: Bike: Yes, only instance slots I believe.
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2019-12-19T14:23:46Z phoe: only instance I think - class slots might be stored elsewhere and (f-)s-i-a is meant to be fast above everything else
2019-12-19T14:26:49Z Bike: the code clasp inherited from ecl works with class slots too, which means an extra type check. is why i'm wondering
2019-12-19T14:27:03Z Bike: but i don't know how people use s-i-a
2019-12-19T14:27:53Z phoe: > By usurping the normal slot lookup protocol, this function is intended to provide highly optimized access to the slots associated with an instance.
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2019-12-19T14:28:10Z phoe: hm
2019-12-19T14:28:16Z phoe: vague, isn't it
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2019-12-19T14:29:33Z Bike: the function description itself is, but the instance structure protocol section has some more detail.
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2019-12-19T15:24:39Z hjudt: regarding the use of defun vs defmethod: when is it better to use defun instead of defmethod and vice-versa?
2019-12-19T15:25:34Z dlowe: hjudt: methods are the specialized forms of generic functions
2019-12-19T15:25:43Z jackdaniel: when you have a single function then use defun
2019-12-19T15:25:53Z jackdaniel: when you want to specialize behavior for different object classes use defmethod
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2019-12-19T15:27:00Z hjudt: so if i only have one object class and suppose that will not change, i should stick to using defun?
2019-12-19T15:27:48Z jackdaniel: that's what I would do at least
2019-12-19T15:28:30Z hjudt: ok. it is still easy to change defun to defmethod later probably.
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2019-12-19T15:28:40Z jackdaniel: sure
2019-12-19T15:28:44Z shka__: hjudt: usually defgeneric/defmethods are used to construct object protocols and the likes
2019-12-19T15:29:01Z hjudt: second question: when do you use extra packages in your projects?
2019-12-19T15:29:17Z Xach: hjudt: i do it whenever i start to think i might use the same name for an unrelated purpose
2019-12-19T15:29:25Z hjudt: i mean when do you define extra packages and separate functionality out into that?
2019-12-19T15:29:41Z Xach: i do it quite often but i understand it's not typical style
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2019-12-19T15:29:55Z Xach: i don't mind having many packages in an application. for libraries not as much.
2019-12-19T15:30:20Z dlowe: as long as the library has a single package for its exported symbols I don't mind
2019-12-19T15:30:29Z dlowe: hjudt: it's a matter of taste
2019-12-19T15:31:01Z hjudt: ok. i have started separating code into packages but noticed there are quite some intersections, which forces me to import symbols and "proxy" them to other packages.
2019-12-19T15:31:21Z hjudt: so i started thinking that maybe i have made bad design decisions.
2019-12-19T15:31:26Z Xach: hjudt: it's possible.
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2019-12-19T15:31:44Z Xach: but it's also not abnormal to import and re-export
2019-12-19T15:31:51Z dlowe: I would keep my program in one package until I was compelled to split it
2019-12-19T15:32:06Z jackdaniel: hjudt: if you do it other way around you will save yourself a lot of hassle: create a your-library-implementation package where you implement everything. and this package USE-es packages meant as an API which only export symbols
2019-12-19T15:32:08Z hjudt: for some parts of the code it feels fine, but for others it is awkward and makes me think if that package is actually the right place for it.
2019-12-19T15:32:16Z Xach: i like to use relatively generic names so i like to make packages so i don't have to worry about clashes.
2019-12-19T15:32:34Z jackdaniel: (that way you may assure that there are no name conflicts between your packages and you won't have to bother with moving things arounds every now and then)
2019-12-19T15:32:54Z jackdaniel: and you have a single implementaiton namespace (saves some mental hasle)
2019-12-19T15:32:56Z jackdaniel: hassle*
2019-12-19T15:33:26Z dlowe: also, package-local-nicknames are a great alternative to using a package
2019-12-19T15:34:07Z hjudt: dlowe: can i you point me to documentation on package-local-nicknames?
2019-12-19T15:34:08Z boeg: If I load a asdf system where I have some package in, and quickload outputs among other things "[Package my-package]", why can't I call say a function from the package outright? Why do I still manually load the the file?
2019-12-19T15:34:41Z dlowe: hjudt: it should be described in your implementation's manual
2019-12-19T15:34:41Z Xach: boeg: you can call functions from the package and do not have to manually load files.
2019-12-19T15:34:55Z Xach: boeg: how did you try to call the function? what happened when you tried?
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2019-12-19T15:34:57Z hjudt: dlowe: ok thanks i'll look that up
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2019-12-19T15:38:36Z boeg: Xach: Ah, my bad, it was just me being dumb, sorry :)
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2019-12-19T15:41:40Z hjudt: Xach: in my case, it is - luckily - not so much about name clashes but more a dependency problem and a matter of aesthetics; however, i suddenly noticed i can split my up components even more into smaller parts and import and re-export as needed.
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2019-12-19T15:42:42Z hjudt: jackdaniel: also thanks for your suggestion about library-implementations. i think i can actually try and use this approach in another part of my application.
2019-12-19T15:44:14Z beach: hjudt: I divide a project into "modules", where each module has an ASDF system definition, typically one (but maybe more) package definitions, and several source files.
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2019-12-19T15:45:10Z Xach: the flexibility and freedom (or, if you are unhappy with it, lack of direction) of the package system means you can choose from a number of different styles
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2019-12-19T15:47:09Z hjudt: beach: that is also fine, but imho that sounds a bit too complicated in my case. i already have defined a system for the backend, one for the frontend and one for tests. i actually chose to use extra packages only where functionality is really separate from the rest.
2019-12-19T15:47:49Z jmercouris: hjudt: that is a just dandy approach, lots of systems is great if you plan on releasing them out into the world as standalone utilities people can take advantage of
2019-12-19T15:48:02Z jmercouris: or if you find yourself copy/pastaing them into your projects over and over again
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2019-12-19T15:48:50Z hjudt: that is, where that functionality in that package could be tested completely separate and used by some other project (though my use-case is so special that this probably wouldn't happen).
2019-12-19T15:49:34Z jmercouris: hjudt: exactly, otherwise, no worries
2019-12-19T15:50:48Z hjudt: Xach: i think this is an accurate description of the problem that i am confronted with ;-)
2019-12-19T15:51:09Z hjudt: jmercouris: thanks
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2019-12-19T15:53:10Z hjudt: about a detail: with defmethods, i assume you defgeneric somewhere, export its symbol and import it in other packages that implement it with defmethod?
2019-12-19T15:53:32Z Xach: hjudt: not necessarily! i will often do (defmethod somepackage:name (...) ...)
2019-12-19T15:53:53Z beach: Me too.
2019-12-19T15:54:47Z hjudt: ah ok. i have not thought yet about this possibility.
2019-12-19T15:54:52Z dlowe: yeah, symbols are just names. You're not exporting or importing anything else  but the names.
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2019-12-19T15:55:55Z hjudt: dlowe: this is now clear to me, but it is more a matter of style, and if you see this the first time (or just sporadically) then it seems awkward at first.
2019-12-19T15:57:33Z beach: hjudt: Though, "it's just a matter of style" doesn't mean that all solutions are equally good.
2019-12-19T15:58:05Z Xach: it can come down to a matter of how much importance you assign to the problems of each approach
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2019-12-19T15:59:07Z dlowe: heh, that's a very generalizable sentiment
2019-12-19T15:59:39Z Xach: "special variable clashes are not an important problem" says the author of let over lambda, heretically omitting earmuffs in defvars
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2019-12-19T16:00:52Z hjudt: i have read that book and still like to use clos because it makes code easier to organize and understand.
2019-12-19T16:01:35Z dlowe: some code, sure
2019-12-19T16:02:02Z dlowe: all solutions are local optimums for something
2019-12-19T16:02:20Z dlowe: (sometimes the something is that I'm not a very good coder)
2019-12-19T16:03:18Z hjudt: yes. it still is an interesting book with some enlightening ideas though.
2019-12-19T16:05:16Z hjudt: i guess that it's those pursue-to-the-extreme attitude leads to some controversial excesses ;-)
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2019-12-19T16:19:24Z hjudt: Xach: i now experienced some benefits of the approach putting code in its own package. it allowed me moving an flet out into its own function without worrying about causing name clashes. this enables me to write tests more efficiently.
2019-12-19T16:20:58Z hjudt: in effect, it seems to encourage me to keep functions shorter ;-)
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2019-12-19T16:40:55Z pjb: jmercouris: https://pastebin.com/6FRKfdxM
2019-12-19T16:41:06Z pjb: jmercouris: but note how the algorithm uses O(n) temporary cons cells.
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2019-12-19T16:41:31Z pjb: jmercouris: a more complex algorithm could do with O(1) temp space.
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2019-12-19T16:43:13Z jmercouris: pjb: why (current (cons nil nil)) in let?
2019-12-19T16:43:36Z jmercouris: ah, nvm
2019-12-19T16:44:14Z jmercouris: interesting approach
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2019-12-19T16:46:43Z jmercouris: in case you are wondering, the end result of what I did was (let* ((matched-list-first (remove-if-not ...)) (second-list (set-difference total-elements matched-list-first)) (append matched-first-list second-list))
2019-12-19T16:46:53Z jmercouris: not exactly like that, but you get the idea
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2019-12-19T16:47:46Z pjb: jmercouris: works as well.
2019-12-19T16:48:06Z _death: what about duplicate elements
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2019-12-19T16:53:12Z jmercouris: _death: there are no duplicate elements, fortunately
2019-12-19T16:53:13Z _death: well, maybe the wording in clhs makes it ok, I'm not sure
2019-12-19T16:54:08Z _death: jmercouris: if you do it that way, why not (append (remove-if-not pred list) (remove-if pred list))
2019-12-19T16:54:29Z jmercouris: _death: I had that originally actually
2019-12-19T16:54:46Z jmercouris: It is because set-difference is much quicker than the predicate function
2019-12-19T16:55:40Z _death: (loop for item in list if (pred item) collect item into a else collect item into b finally (return (append a b)))
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2019-12-19T16:59:48Z pjb: _death: my algorithm doesn't consider the elements but the cells. The only way to have duplicate elements would be to have a circular list. In that case, the program would not terminate.  My algorithm works only on proper-lists.
2019-12-19T17:00:39Z pjb: _death: if you want to do the same thing with circular lists, you can break the circle, use my algorithm, and ensure-circular again.
2019-12-19T17:01:19Z pjb: _death: be careful with spoons!
2019-12-19T17:01:56Z pjb: _death: of course, you would have to decide on the semantics of element reordering in spoons!
2019-12-19T17:02:46Z jmercouris: spoons?
2019-12-19T17:02:49Z jmercouris: circular lists are known as spoons?
2019-12-19T17:03:00Z jmercouris: what if you put a sentinel, could your algorithm be terminating then?
2019-12-19T17:04:19Z jmercouris: I'm having a bit of an issue with Parenscript
2019-12-19T17:04:25Z jmercouris: according to here: https://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/reference.html#section-objects
2019-12-19T17:04:33Z jmercouris: (ps:ps (ps:create foo "bar" :blorg 1)) -> "{ foo : 'bar', 'blorg' : 1 };"
2019-12-19T17:04:42Z jmercouris: However, the semicolon is erroneous and causes issues in a JS console
2019-12-19T17:04:58Z jmercouris: additionally, cl-json is unable to decode the object
2019-12-19T17:05:24Z jmercouris: even a properly formed one like this: { foo:"bar", "blorg":30 }
2019-12-19T17:06:10Z Xach: properly formed by what definition?
2019-12-19T17:06:21Z jmercouris: by Javascript's definiton of JSON
2019-12-19T17:06:39Z Xach: jmercouris: javascript does not define json
2019-12-19T17:06:43Z jmercouris: (cl-json:decode-json-from-string "{ foo:\"bar\", "blorg":30 }") -> Evaluation aborted on #<UNBOUND-VARIABLE BLORG {10023B9803}>.
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2019-12-19T17:06:56Z jmercouris: Xach: OK, the ecma foundation or whatever it is called
2019-12-19T17:07:01Z Xach: No?
2019-12-19T17:07:02Z jmercouris: in any case, the JS REPL happily accepts that JSON
2019-12-19T17:07:04Z Xach: That is not valid json.
2019-12-19T17:07:11Z Xach: It is fine javascript. Json is not javascript.
2019-12-19T17:07:27Z Xach: check json.org for a definition
2019-12-19T17:07:30Z jmercouris: Alright, let me ask the parent problem instead
2019-12-19T17:07:47Z jmercouris: I want to create an object in parenscript that can then be read back into lisp by cl-json or some other library
2019-12-19T17:08:34Z jmercouris: actually, let me try something first
2019-12-19T17:08:38Z jmercouris: I have a suspicion about something
2019-12-19T17:10:43Z _death: pjb: your code needs a bit of tweaking.. (reorder (list 'a) 'integerp 'symbolp)
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2019-12-19T17:32:06Z pjb: _death: oops :-)
2019-12-19T17:33:33Z pjb: _death: use:   (let ((head (first (find nil cell-lists :test-not (function eql))))  in append-cells.
2019-12-19T17:34:12Z _death: find nil => wrong
2019-12-19T17:34:21Z pjb: jmercouris: spoons are lists where the last cons cell points back in the middle of the list.
2019-12-19T17:34:24Z pjb: _death: why?
2019-12-19T17:34:42Z _death: pjb: it always returns nil
2019-12-19T17:34:51Z pjb: jmercouris: for example (s t e m #=1(s p o o n . #1#))
2019-12-19T17:34:58Z pjb: _death: not with :test-not
2019-12-19T17:35:27Z _death: pjb: hmm, right.. then it's just confusing
2019-12-19T17:36:52Z _death: (some #'identity cell-lists)
2019-12-19T17:37:23Z jmercouris: pjb: why would you want such a list?
2019-12-19T17:39:09Z pjb: jmercouris: could happen. (append list circular-list) ; but foremost, it has encoded two integers: the length of the stem and the length of the spoon, so it may be useful.  For example, (coerce 512/270 'double-float) #| --> 1.8962962962962964D0 |#  is not periodic immediate. There's a stem of 1.8 before the circle of 962.
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2019-12-19T17:41:37Z jmercouris: OK, I can see that
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2019-12-19T18:01:21Z phoe: Xach: the spam from CCL blog is cleaned.
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2019-12-19T18:18:19Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: the split-sequence notes are some silly stuff that happens due to heavy function inlining - I'll work on it now
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2019-12-19T18:22:09Z phoe: basically SBCL is being a smart compiler now - it detects that, in SPLIT-LIST-FROM-END, the variable END is always non-NIL, so the "if END is NIL" branch inside the code of COLLECT-UNTIL inside SPLIT-LIST-INTERNAL inside SPLIT-LIST-FROM-END is unreachable
2019-12-19T18:22:38Z phoe: and all further notes are the repeat of the original one due to everything being inlined everywhere
2019-12-19T18:24:41Z aeth: Wait, it now warns about deleting branches inside inline functions? That's the opposite of smart because it has afaik always done that, but warning about it defeats half of the purpose of using inline functions to share code in the first place.
2019-12-19T18:25:22Z aeth: I hope split-sequence is doing something unusual or I misread, though
2019-12-19T18:25:27Z Xach: phoe: phoew
2019-12-19T18:25:29Z phoe: aeth: it's not doing something unusual
2019-12-19T18:25:35Z phoe: Xach: oof, that one hurt
2019-12-19T18:26:11Z phoe: aeth: please direct your suggestions at #sbcl
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2019-12-19T18:27:17Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: how should I act?
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2019-12-19T18:50:41Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: I've manually spliced in the code, this is the issue
2019-12-19T18:50:43Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1609#1609
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2019-12-19T19:02:57Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: nevermind, the important is the the code stay clean
2019-12-19T19:03:10Z fe[nl]ix: maybe open a bug with SBCL
2019-12-19T19:03:32Z fe[nl]ix: aeth is right, these warnings are a bit silly
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2019-12-19T19:16:51Z sjl_: Is there a way to read a slot with :allocation :class without creating a dummy instance of the class?
2019-12-19T19:18:09Z Xach: sjl_: this has been discussed a bit on comp.lang.lisp and i don't remember the true answer to the question. i remember people saying things like "Well use a global special variable instead" but i don't know if that was the True Answer.
2019-12-19T19:18:22Z phoe: sjl_: class prototype
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2019-12-19T19:18:37Z phoe: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-prototype.html
2019-12-19T19:18:39Z no-defun-allowed: Using the MOP, you can obtain the class prototype.
2019-12-19T19:18:48Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: I took this to #sbcl and I'll see what they say.
2019-12-19T19:18:50Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks phoe
2019-12-19T19:18:51Z sjl_: hmm
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2019-12-19T19:19:31Z phoe: sjl_: read it from the class prototype. It has undefined values for instance-allocated slots but you can use it to access class-allocated slots (since these already exist by the time the prototype is created).
2019-12-19T19:20:02Z sjl_: Xach: thanks, this could work
2019-12-19T19:20:22Z sjl_: My other thought was to just (defgeneric foo (class-name)) and have my macros expand out a defmethod for every class
2019-12-19T19:20:39Z sjl_: so instead of having the stuff inside an :allocation :class slot I'd call a method to get it
2019-12-19T19:20:52Z sjl_: but the prototype should work too
2019-12-19T19:21:23Z sjl_: thanks
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2019-12-19T19:30:01Z aeth: If I write a function with a top-level etypecase and inline that etypecase function, I don't expect to get unreachable code notes. Unreachable code is literally the point of inlining that function.
2019-12-19T19:30:48Z aeth: I'm not sure that that is happening, though. Do I have to build the latest SBCL from git? From the last release?
2019-12-19T19:32:58Z phoe: aeth: happens on 1.5.9
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2019-12-19T19:48:02Z aeth: phoe: if it's literally just for a typecase, then don't fix the library, the implementation is broken
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2019-12-19T20:19:25Z phoe: aeth: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/509023
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2019-12-19T20:27:51Z Xach: https://github.com/guicho271828/eazy-documentation seems interesting
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2019-12-20T00:50:50Z copec: ^ Is that guy on IRC?
2019-12-20T00:52:37Z Xach: copec: i don't think so
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2019-12-20T00:53:24Z copec: I've used his inlined generic function library before, I remember that name
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2019-12-20T04:08:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-12-20T04:10:53Z ebrasca: Good morning beach!
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2019-12-20T11:05:08Z flip214: I'm seeking opinions regarding https://github.com/phmarek/hunchentoot/commit/4910a6041784d2a2db4d8087a02cd09c9c31f44d - any feedback is welcome.
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2019-12-20T11:48:36Z beach: flip214: I recommend using genitive 's only for proper names.  If you write "the suffix of the file" instead of "the file's suffix", you get the additional advantage that the important word (i.e. "suffix") comes first.
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2019-12-20T11:49:32Z beach: flip214: I also suggest you follow the recommendations on page 13 of the LUV slides.
2019-12-20T11:50:07Z beach: In your case, it means not using CALLBACK as a Boolean, and using a WHEN/UNLESS rather than a one-legged IF.
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2019-12-20T11:51:45Z beach: flip214: It also looks like indentation is wrong in several places. (header-out...) and (decf bytes-to-send...) for instance.
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2019-12-20T12:09:19Z _death: maybe choose a more specific name for the callback.. and in this case I would consider just adding it as another optional
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2019-12-20T12:11:09Z _death: beach: the indentation is not wrong, it's just different chunks of the diff
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2019-12-20T12:13:53Z flip214: beach: thanks! I hoped for _technical_ feedback, TBH
2019-12-20T12:14:19Z flip214: _death: thanks as well! you think just having a second &optional is cleaner? How about a third one, then, etc.?
2019-12-20T12:14:32Z flip214: No idea whether that will come up, though
2019-12-20T12:14:45Z flip214: beach: which LUV slides?
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2019-12-20T12:14:55Z _death: flip214: right, but you already have 1 optional and need to maintain backwards compatibility
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2019-12-20T12:15:43Z _death: there are other ways to add this functionality.. e.g., instead of callback provide additional headers.. or add hooks
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2019-12-20T12:17:18Z flip214: hmmm... for only a second argument &optional might be okay... if more comes up later, having another function with &key might be better
2019-12-20T12:17:52Z flip214: and a callback means that authorization can be done as well; more flexible than just a list of headers to send
2019-12-20T12:17:55Z flip214: thanks a lot!
2019-12-20T12:18:34Z _death: another thing to think about is that the user can supply a pathname and a content-type, but the callback is called just with the pathname, so if it wants to dispatch based on content-type as well it needs to find it out using another way (the content-type function).. may not be a big deal, but another indicator of ad-hociness
2019-12-20T12:19:03Z flip214: yeah, right. I'll pass that in as well.
2019-12-20T12:19:31Z flip214: beach: how would I _not_ use CALLBACK as a boolean? I need to check whether one was passed, right?
2019-12-20T12:19:41Z _death: maybe hooks would be a better approach.. it'll mean a larger change
2019-12-20T12:22:08Z _death: flip214: you could have it default to a noop function
2019-12-20T12:22:11Z flip214: beach: ah, I guess you mean using a callback-given-p, right? But that breaks as soon as some function or macro just relays an incoming NIL value...
2019-12-20T12:22:50Z _death: (my preference is that nil be treated as a noop, though)
2019-12-20T12:22:56Z flip214: _death: yeah, but I'm not sure that's faster - and it breaks for functions just relaying their parameters
2019-12-20T12:23:22Z _death: right
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2019-12-20T12:46:38Z flip214: which of the 5 different CSV libraries in QL is the "best"? Any opinions?
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2019-12-20T12:50:52Z _death: I would guess cl-csv is the most complete one
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2019-12-20T13:00:23Z flip214: thanks
2019-12-20T13:02:01Z Xach: flip214: there is a comparison report, i think!
2019-12-20T13:02:21Z Xach: flip214: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/reading-csv-benchmarks
2019-12-20T13:03:33Z flip214: Xach: thanks!
2019-12-20T13:03:44Z flip214: https://cliki.net/csv should be updated, but my user is no longer valid?!
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2019-12-20T13:06:44Z beach: flip214: http://www.norvig.com/luv-slides.pdf
2019-12-20T13:07:57Z beach: flip214: callback is not a Boolean, it is a variable with a default value of NIL.
2019-12-20T13:08:24Z beach: flip214: When you write (IF CALLBACK, you use it as a Boolean.
2019-12-20T13:09:11Z beach: When you write (IF (NULL CALLBACK), the Boolean is (NULL CALLBACK) which tests whether CALLBACK has its default value.
2019-12-20T13:10:01Z beach: In this case, since you have a one-legged IF, you can write (UNLESS (NULL CALLBACK) (FUNCALL CALLBACK PATHNAME))
2019-12-20T13:11:03Z beach: Which means "unless the variable CALLBACK happens to have its default value (which is not a function), call it with PATHNAME as its argument".
2019-12-20T13:12:23Z beach: Whereas (IF CALLBACK (FUNCALL CALLBACK PATHNAME)) means "if the Boolean variable CALLBACK happens to be true, then call that Boolean value ...".
2019-12-20T13:13:49Z beach: _death: Ah, yes, I see what you mean about the indentation.
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2019-12-20T13:21:51Z flip214: beach: ack, thanks! will fix that.
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2019-12-20T15:04:13Z reepca: Is it acceptable to have a pathname with a nil NAME (according to the spec, anyway)? I wanna have a list of "search paths" I can use merge-pathnames with to test whether a file is under a given directory, but it only seems to have the desired effect when NAME is nil and instead the last element of DIRECTORY.
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2019-12-20T15:09:57Z p_l: i think it's supposed to operate just like that, might need to take a look again
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2019-12-20T15:11:55Z reepca: I'm somewhat uncertain because uiop:getenv-pathnames keeps spitting out pathnames with a non-nil NAME component, which would seem to be contrary to what I assume is its purpose of "handling search path environment variables".
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2019-12-20T15:13:00Z flip214: reepca: there's a difference between PATH/ and PATH - the former is a directory, the latter the entry in the parent directory.
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2019-12-20T15:15:00Z scymtym: reepca: (uiop:getenv-pathnames "NAME" :ensure-directory t) seems to do that. there is also UIOP:GETENV-ABSOLUTE-DIRECTORIES if you don't mind the absolute part
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2019-12-20T15:16:38Z reepca: scymtym: ooh, thanks. I guess I didn't see that parameter since it's just lumped in with "constraints" in my minibuffer
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2019-12-20T15:28:36Z pfdietz: ASDF package inferred systems should understand package local nicknames entries in defpackage.
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2019-12-20T15:48:05Z jmercouris: I feel like I'm doing something seriously wrong because I'm going through a list of objects and doing an operation based on their type
2019-12-20T15:48:26Z Bike: change it to mapc with a generic function?
2019-12-20T15:48:27Z jmercouris: I would make a method for each object
2019-12-20T15:48:41Z jmercouris: however it is unfortunate that what each object should do depends on the method...
2019-12-20T15:48:46Z jmercouris: it's like a double combination
2019-12-20T15:49:01Z Bike: i do not understand
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2019-12-20T15:49:17Z jmercouris: OK, let me re-explain
2019-12-20T15:49:23Z jmercouris: I have four methods that each go through a list of objects
2019-12-20T15:49:38Z jmercouris: in each of those four methods, what each object does is different
2019-12-20T15:50:00Z jmercouris: you know what, that's fine
2019-12-20T15:50:02Z jmercouris: I will do that
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2019-12-20T15:50:09Z beach: Wow!.  Hold on.  Objects don't do anything.
2019-12-20T15:50:20Z jmercouris: Ah, yes
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2019-12-20T15:50:39Z jmercouris: let me make it very concrete and see if there is a better approach here, give me a second to write it out
2019-12-20T15:52:10Z jmercouris: I have a list of objects, buttons and links. I have two functions "open-in-new-tab" "copy-url". In "open-in-new-tab" when I get a link object I want to do action A. In "open-in-new-tab" when I get a button object I want to do action B. In "copy-url" when I have a link I want to do action C. In "copy-url" when I have a button I want do action D.
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2019-12-20T15:52:53Z jackdaniel: define a method specialized on both action and object
2019-12-20T15:53:30Z beach: Might not be worthwhile.
2019-12-20T15:53:31Z jackdaniel: having "a method for each object" doesn't make much sense. you may have a slot in each object to store its function if you really want to have a separate function for each object.
2019-12-20T15:53:40Z dlowe: I'm confused, this just sounds like two generic functions with two methods each
2019-12-20T15:53:49Z jmercouris: dlowe: yes
2019-12-20T15:54:00Z jmercouris: IF I could specialize on a function
2019-12-20T15:54:03Z jmercouris: is this possible?
2019-12-20T15:54:08Z dlowe: you can specialize on a symbol
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2019-12-20T15:54:22Z dlowe: you have a list of functions too?
2019-12-20T15:54:29Z jmercouris: I don't have a list of functions, no
2019-12-20T15:55:18Z dlowe: you want (defun open-in-new-tab (list) (mapc 'dwim-open-in-new-tab list))?
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2019-12-20T15:57:09Z jmercouris: OK, I will define four defgenerics, one for each function (in my original problem)
2019-12-20T15:57:13Z jmercouris: that is the most logical I think
2019-12-20T15:57:30Z jmercouris: time will tell of course, but that makes sense, thank you all
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2019-12-20T17:22:10Z reepca: in CASE, does the OTHERWISE symbol have to be in the COMMON-LISP package? Apparently using a keyword doesn't work there...
2019-12-20T17:23:43Z reepca: oh huh, apparently there's more distinction between symbols and keywords than just "one is in the keywords package" I guess?
2019-12-20T17:31:00Z pfdietz: Yes, it must be that specific symbol.
2019-12-20T17:31:19Z pfdietz: Not a different symbol for which SYMBOL-NAME is STRING=.
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2019-12-20T17:38:10Z pfdietz: There are very few places in standard CL that allow one to use any symbol with the same symbol-name, rather than some specific symbol.
2019-12-20T17:38:23Z pfdietz: LOOP is one.
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2019-12-20T19:26:06Z shangul: Sorry that I have forgotten this but how should I indicate empty list? nil? 'nil? ()? '()?
2019-12-20T19:26:32Z pfdietz: No need to quote it, it evaluates to itself.
2019-12-20T19:26:56Z pfdietz: NIL and () read as exactly the same thing, so whichever you prefer.
2019-12-20T19:27:12Z pfdietz: (and nil and NIL, for that matter)
2019-12-20T19:28:11Z pfdietz: Style varies, depending on where it's used.
2019-12-20T19:28:23Z pfdietz: It would be weird to write (defun nil ...) for a nullary function.
2019-12-20T19:28:43Z pfdietz: But nil is often used in code as a value.
2019-12-20T19:29:34Z pfdietz: You may notice the printer may use one or other depending on context.
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2019-12-20T19:30:23Z pfdietz: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/22_bad.htm
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2019-12-20T19:36:54Z didi: How do I make a struct if it has no constructor function, as in (defstruct (foo (:constructor)))?
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2019-12-20T19:44:03Z asdf_asdf_asdf: didi hi. I don't understand.
2019-12-20T19:44:46Z didi: asdf_asdf_asdf: Suppose you define a struct as (defstruct (foo (:constructor))). Now, how do you make a struct foo?
2019-12-20T19:45:22Z dlowe: defstruct creates a make-foo function
2019-12-20T19:45:31Z dlowe: as well as all the foo-field functions
2019-12-20T19:45:38Z didi: dlowe: Even if I tell it not to?
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2019-12-20T19:45:50Z didi: Maybe it should be (defstruct (foo (:constructor nil))).
2019-12-20T19:45:57Z pfdietz: You can force defstruct to make no constructors.
2019-12-20T19:45:58Z Bike: :constructor nil tells it not to, yes
2019-12-20T19:46:11Z didi: Right right.
2019-12-20T19:46:24Z didi: Then, how do I make foo?
2019-12-20T19:46:26Z dlowe: oh. well, I don't think you do
2019-12-20T19:46:39Z didi: dlowe: oic
2019-12-20T19:46:48Z pfdietz: That makes sense if you are defining a "base" struct that will only be used as a supertype of structs that include it, or if it's not a struct-struct but rather one using lists or vectors.
2019-12-20T19:47:10Z pfdietz: You can define constructors for those child types.
2019-12-20T19:47:21Z didi: pfdietz: I see.
2019-12-20T19:47:24Z pfdietz: Think of the constructor-less one as an abstract base class.
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2019-12-20T19:48:47Z pfdietz: While you're in that neighborhood, look up BOA constructors, admire the pun, and then look at things you can do with BOA lambda lists.
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2019-12-20T19:55:27Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Is fashion to append new data to created structure (defstruct)?
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2019-12-20T19:57:13Z Bike: what the what?
2019-12-20T19:57:54Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (defstruct ship (a "hello")) ; And now I have append (b "world") to this structure.
2019-12-20T19:58:15Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I want after modification it (defstruct ship (a "hello") (b "world")).
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2019-12-20T20:00:00Z buffergn0me: asdf_asdf_asdf: classes can do that
2019-12-20T20:00:55Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (append-to-ship (b "world")) ;?
2019-12-20T20:01:59Z buffergn0me: asdf_asdf_asdf: DEFCLASS will add new slots to existing objects and give them proper default values
2019-12-20T20:02:50Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Thank, but on only (defstruct... is it not possible?
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2019-12-20T20:06:15Z buffergn0me: asdf_asdf_asdf: "The consequences of redefining a defstruct structure are undefined." http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/m_defstr.htm
2019-12-20T20:08:14Z buffergn0me: asdf_asdf_asdf: Structures are low overhead and very efficient, but they are missing a lot of nice features that classes have.
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2019-12-20T20:10:14Z buffergn0me: asdf_asdf_asdf: Structures are in mostly equivalent to single-inheritance classes in most object-oriented languages.
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2019-12-20T20:16:19Z asdf_asdf_asdf: How add new slot to existing objects?
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2019-12-20T20:19:35Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: evaluate a new defclass form
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2019-12-20T20:23:50Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Sorry, I don't know.
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2019-12-20T20:26:35Z buffergn0me: asdf_asdf_asdf:  (defclass apple () ((color :initform 'red))) then (defclass apple () ((color :initform 'red) (weight :initform 2)))
2019-12-20T20:26:43Z buffergn0me: asdf_asdf_asdf: All apple objects will be updated
2019-12-20T20:27:56Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Is there any other way?
2019-12-20T20:28:31Z phoe: asdf_asdf_asdf: not really, unless you want to dive into system internals
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2019-12-20T20:33:14Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK. Thank You for described. (defstruct..., not be define again, but (defclass can, thanks.
2019-12-20T20:34:54Z _death: (defclass fine-apple (apple) ((owner :initform 'idunn))) (change-class an-apple 'fine-apple)
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2019-12-20T20:57:31Z pjb: shangul:  nil = false ;  'nil = the symbol nil ;  () = empty code list (in code) ;  '() = empty data list (in code).
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2019-12-20T20:58:52Z phoe: ;; (progv () ()) = overkill
2019-12-20T20:59:10Z pjb: shangul: now, it depends on the current *readtable* and *package*. "NIL" and "()" can read to very different things, and different from |CL|:|NIL| < and even "|CL|:|NIL|" could read as something very different!
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2019-12-20T21:01:50Z pjb: asdf_asdf_asdf: or use the MOP (to add slots).  But it's not necessarily a good idea to do that, since new slots mean new accessor functions, and adding new functions at run-time means that you didn't knew it when you compiled your program, so they are not called, so they're useless.
2019-12-20T21:02:09Z pjb: asdf_asdf_asdf: unless you are also adding new code, which will call those new functions. Are you implementing an IDE?
2019-12-20T21:02:30Z pjb: asdf_asdf_asdf: it is better to have one slot holding an a-list or a hash-table, and to add entries to it.
2019-12-20T21:03:08Z pjb: asdf_asdf_asdf: addding a new slot to a class is very costly an operation, since ALL the instance of this class and its subclasses will have to be updated!
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2019-12-20T21:04:31Z asdf_asdf_asdf: pjb, no I not implementing an IDE. How create a new slot using hash-table, example?
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2019-12-20T21:06:31Z pjb: asdf_asdf_asdf: you don't.
2019-12-20T21:06:44Z pjb: asdf_asdf_asdf: I just explained that creating a new slot was a BAD idea.
2019-12-20T21:08:17Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK, thank. What mean "it is better to have one slot holding an a-list or a hash-table, and to add entries to it."?
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2019-12-20T21:13:46Z pjb: asdf_asdf_asdf: https://pastebin.com/w1CsDANZ
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2019-12-20T21:17:06Z pjb: So instead of using slot-value, you use attribute-value.
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2019-12-20T21:23:19Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Thank You.
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2019-12-20T21:56:41Z aeth: Depending on the problem, if you want to add a bunch of 'slots' at runtime then a hash-table definitely seems better than actually using object slots. Then you don't need to 'add slots to existing objects' since any key is going to be valid. For alternatives, alists/plists are lists, so they're only good if it's short or if you're always iterating over them with something like alexandria:doplist.
2019-12-20T21:57:17Z aeth: plists are great in macros, though, because they're just syntax and you can use destructuring-bind on them
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2019-12-20T21:59:07Z aeth: GETHASH supports default values as an optional third argument so if your hash table doesn't have the slot, you specify the default on access or in a helper function. e.g. (gethash :color foo :red)
2019-12-20T21:59:09Z _death: you can also use the mop to define your own slot storage
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2019-12-20T21:59:45Z aeth: _death: I suspect that thinking in terms of instances of DEFCLASS-defined classes is overthinking it, though. Unless it's a public API that has to take this form.
2019-12-20T22:00:03Z aeth: It depends on the problem, but this really seems like a better fit for hash tables.
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2019-12-20T22:00:13Z _death: sure, I doubt asdf_asdf_asdf needs this sophistication
2019-12-20T22:00:51Z pfdietz: The default value is useful with some macros:    (incf (gethash x table 0))
2019-12-20T22:02:45Z no-defun-allowed: Speaking of hash tables, are there any implementations of hash tables that are specialised on using strings as keys?
2019-12-20T22:02:47Z aeth: It solves half of the problem. Now you get a meaningful default value instead of NIL when there's no entry present, but it won't stop you or someone else from adding some value that violates your constraints (in that case a non-number) somewhere else.
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2019-12-20T22:04:04Z pfdietz: no-defun-allowed:  just EQUAL hash tables.
2019-12-20T22:04:13Z aeth: hash-tables/alists/plists (especially the latter two since they're just lists) require discipline, but with the MOP you can really enforce things if you can describe it as a DEFCLASS (and DEFSTRUCT gives you :type which depending on the implementation can guarantee quite a bit, if the implementation respects that)
2019-12-20T22:04:15Z pfdietz: Or EQUALP if you want to ignore case.
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2019-12-20T22:06:58Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, but those appear to be a performance problem in some code, especially on my Pi 0 where it takes more than 10 seconds to read a space delimited file and store it into a hash table.
2019-12-20T22:07:37Z pfdietz: All you'd save would be the dispatching time to recognize a key is a string.
2019-12-20T22:07:47Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, true.
2019-12-20T22:08:19Z aeth: pfdietz: hmm... if the key is always a string, wouldn't a modern CPU with branch prediction basically make that time go away?
2019-12-20T22:08:22Z pfdietz: If you have a specific constant set of string keys, STRING-CASE can be much faster.
2019-12-20T22:08:43Z pfdietz: https://github.com/pkhuong/string-case/blob/master/string-case.lisp
2019-12-20T22:08:59Z _death: have you tried implementing your own hash-table?
2019-12-20T22:09:00Z pfdietz: aeth: you'd think so.
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2019-12-20T22:09:39Z no-defun-allowed: That file has "only" 100,000 made up values, but it is much faster than I think it should be on my desktop.
2019-12-20T22:10:28Z pfdietz: Which lisp are you using?
2019-12-20T22:10:41Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe it's another SBCL vs Clozure thing; Clozure on my desktop is also a bit slower.
2019-12-20T22:11:49Z pfdietz: One thing to worry about with strings (and comparisons of strings) is encodings.   By default SBCL will read strings as (array character (*)), which uses 4 bytes per character.   If you know it's 8 bit characters, you can read as base strings.
2019-12-20T22:12:28Z no-defun-allowed: The strings aren't constant, and realistically I can't assume they're all 8 bit characters.
2019-12-20T22:16:11Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, gethash on an equalp hash table in SBCL is 3.5x faster for a miss, and 46x faster for a hit with a single element.
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2019-12-20T22:18:30Z no-defun-allowed: The latter drops to only 16x if I provide `:lock-free t`.
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2019-12-20T22:27:12Z no-defun-allowed: _death: Well, I have for Netfarm slot lookup, since I don't have to implement resizing or removal or most of the interface other than GETHASH and (SETF GETHASH), but a complete hash table seems daunting.
2019-12-20T22:30:01Z sahara3: hola
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2019-12-20T22:31:05Z no-defun-allowed: (You can insert "because the number of slots in a class is usually pretty small" somewhere in that sentence.)
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2019-12-20T22:39:23Z _death: no-defun-allowed: I don't know what netfarm is... btw you can provide a size parameter to make-hash-table
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2019-12-20T22:48:44Z no-defun-allowed: It's irrelevant stuff that involves the MOP and another way to get at slot values which goes through a hash table.
2019-12-20T22:48:54Z no-defun-allowed: That didn't really help, I don't think it was a resizing problem.
2019-12-20T22:49:10Z _death: profile it?
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2019-12-20T23:01:08Z no-defun-allowed: I couldn't get https://github.com/eugeneia/sam to run too well on the Pi, nor on my desktop profiling all threads.
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2019-12-20T23:27:05Z no-defun-allowed is now very confused
2019-12-20T23:27:51Z no-defun-allowed: Out of curiosity, I unplugged the charger from my laptop. Clozure halved in speed, which would make sense given the laptop would throttle more, but SBCL dropped from 20ns or so to 1ns.
2019-12-20T23:29:08Z no-defun-allowed: I guess now the-cost-of-nothing's initial tests for latency and overhead and all that don't apply, and it then gives incorrect results.
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2019-12-21T05:54:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-21T05:59:13Z beach: pfdietz: That's really bad advice.  The empty list should be written as '().
2019-12-21T06:00:23Z beach: clhs 1.4.1.4.4
2019-12-21T06:00:23Z specbot: NIL: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_dadd.htm
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2019-12-21T13:32:30Z Xach: Every day I build the Quicklisp universe and write reports to http://report.quicklisp.org
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2019-12-21T13:32:55Z Xach: Today I added a new thing where source files are linked to their online version if possible
2019-12-21T13:33:21Z Xach: For example: http://report.quicklisp.org/2019-12-21/failure-report/cl-notebook.html#cl-notebook links to the github sources from the compiler output
2019-12-21T13:35:24Z beach: Nice!
2019-12-21T13:35:32Z count3rmeasure: very cool
2019-12-21T13:39:30Z phoe: amazing
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2019-12-21T13:39:52Z phoe: one thing - for GitHub you want to use direct commit IDs, not the master branch
2019-12-21T13:40:00Z phoe: for instance, you have https://github.com/inaimathi/house/blob/master/define-handler.lisp
2019-12-21T13:40:35Z phoe: the version at the master branch could be anything else by the time this link is accessed
2019-12-21T13:40:50Z phoe: you'll likely want to use concrete git commit hashes there
2019-12-21T13:41:22Z phoe: this might not become an issue in practice, but nonetheless it's a nitpick from the correctness point of view
2019-12-21T13:44:46Z phoe: clhs ~c
2019-12-21T13:44:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_caa.htm
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2019-12-21T13:56:45Z beach: What is the maximum number of values returned by a standard Common Lisp function?
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2019-12-21T13:57:54Z beach: I guess maybe 9, by DECODE-UNIVERSAL-TIME?
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2019-12-21T14:00:04Z Bike: you're not including values-list and stuff, right?
2019-12-21T14:00:34Z Bike: in which case yeah, decode-universal-time sounds right
2019-12-21T14:00:47Z beach: OK, thanks.
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2019-12-21T14:10:53Z pjb: 20 is the minimum value for MULTIPLE-VALUES-LIMIT.
2019-12-21T14:11:06Z beach: Yes, but that was not my question.
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2019-12-21T14:26:20Z Xach: phoe: yes, good idea.
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2019-12-21T14:36:59Z earl-ducaine: I'm getting an end-of-file error when doing a read on SBCL. This is how I'm calling the read, (read file-stream nil :eof )
2019-12-21T14:37:13Z earl-ducaine: So, read shouldn't generate errors on eof.
2019-12-21T14:37:22Z Xach: earl-ducaine: it shouldn't. what does the backtrace look like?
2019-12-21T14:37:30Z earl-ducaine: stacktrace: https://gist.github.com/earl-ducaine/778a2eaf5b7d1cda5c7ea363f76cef44
2019-12-21T14:37:41Z Xach: earl-ducaine: it's possible (though depends on your situation) that a read macro could cause the problem.
2019-12-21T14:38:29Z Xach: it sounds like a missing ) to me.
2019-12-21T14:39:10Z Xach: For example: (read-from-string "(1 2" nil :eof) => error
2019-12-21T14:39:19Z Xach: EOF error, in fact
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2019-12-21T14:40:01Z earl-ducaine: Xach: Hmmm, interesting. I am doing something a bit hairy. I'm catching missing package and symbol errors, fishing them out of the condition, and then restarting the read from the top of the file.
2019-12-21T14:40:57Z Xach: the READ-LIST in the stack trace is what suggests it strongly to me.
2019-12-21T14:41:26Z earl-ducaine: Xach: so, lot of opportunities to for exactly that type of error. Thanks!
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2019-12-21T14:51:49Z earl-ducaine: Xach: I can confirm. You were exactly right: missing right parentheses.
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2019-12-21T14:55:09Z Bike: huh, i see, "Eof-value is returned if eof-error-p is false and end of file is reached before the beginning of an object."
2019-12-21T14:55:16Z Bike: so if you're in the middle of an object you still get the error
2019-12-21T14:55:40Z Bike: oh, says it in "exceptional situations" to, about this exact situation
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2019-12-21T15:05:10Z pjb: Bike: yep. Some code review is in order…
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2019-12-21T19:17:21Z drmeister: Folks - are there any quicklisp systems that define their own READTABLE class?   I know of ECLECTOR - but are there any others?
2019-12-21T19:19:01Z phoe: One would need to implement their own reader to implement their own readtables, especially since you can't portably subclass the class CL:READTABLE.
2019-12-21T19:19:23Z phoe: So I'd bet at least $3 that, no, there are none, or at least none in widespread use.
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2019-12-21T19:25:53Z drmeister: Ok, thank you.
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2019-12-21T19:26:18Z drmeister: I agree with you - I just thought I would toss the question out there.
2019-12-21T19:26:36Z phoe doubles his bet to $6.
2019-12-21T19:27:34Z drmeister: We need to be able to support eclector readtables from within clasp's C++ code and if I'm going to do that I want to be able do it more generally if necessary.
2019-12-21T19:27:44Z drmeister: But it doesn't look like it is necessary.
2019-12-21T19:28:30Z phoe: Likely unnecessary. You'd need to support madmen who launch into the unknown seas to implement their own portable Lisp reader.
2019-12-21T19:29:02Z drmeister: My kinda madpersons.
2019-12-21T19:29:13Z phoe: Mad, as in, it's not like eclector doesn't exist now.
2019-12-21T19:30:08Z phoe: drmeister: your question implies the inevitable existence of TRIVIAL-LISP-READER that abstracts over various Lisp readers available - the implementation-defined one, eclector, and then the hypothetical new portable one.
2019-12-21T19:30:17Z phoe: And these are dangerous thoughts, I tell ya.
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2019-12-21T19:31:00Z Bike: could just elevate the protocl part of eclector into a standard package, like gray and sequence
2019-12-21T19:31:09Z Bike: it pretty much covers everything
2019-12-21T19:31:22Z phoe: see, I told you these are dangerous thoughts
2019-12-21T19:31:35Z drmeister: Hail Cthulhu!
2019-12-21T19:31:41Z phoe: now we're going to have as many Lisp readers as we have unit test frameworks
2019-12-21T19:32:00Z Bike: well we already have like one per implementation.
2019-12-21T19:32:11Z phoe: Bike: I mean portable librarified ones
2019-12-21T19:32:21Z phoe: ...and we're likely going to create another three or four test frameworks to test these portable readers
2019-12-21T19:32:31Z Bike: there aren't librarified version of gray or sequence, are there?
2019-12-21T19:32:41Z Bike: like in terms of implementing streams themselves...
2019-12-21T19:33:05Z phoe: well, hm
2019-12-21T19:33:27Z phoe: sequences are hard to define portably without direct support from the implementation
2019-12-21T19:33:31Z phoe: same with streams
2019-12-21T19:34:12Z phoe: the Lisp reader is somewhat different as it can be "bolted on" to the rest of the system as a library, not unlike LOOP or FORMAT
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2019-12-21T19:34:38Z phoe: obviously it greatly complicates compilation and such so no one does that, but in theory one can think of a reader as a library - that's the foundation of eclector
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2019-12-21T19:35:21Z Bike: sure.
2019-12-21T19:35:28Z Bike: we might have modules in the language. imagine
2019-12-21T19:35:52Z phoe grabs a shovel to dig #'REQUIRE and #'PROVIDE back out of their grave
2019-12-21T19:36:37Z Bike: i mean, there's not much reason to implement your own reader if there's already a protocol, tho.
2019-12-21T19:36:45Z Bike: it's like implementing your own version of FIND or something
2019-12-21T19:36:53Z Bike: i can think of reasons you'd want to, but they're hardly common
2019-12-21T19:37:20Z phoe: ayup
2019-12-21T19:37:46Z phoe: the usual reason I can imagine is where the implementation-provided one is deficient in some way, such as extensibility or what not
2019-12-21T19:37:53Z drmeister: Bike: You just added seqPackage.* files to clasp - right?
2019-12-21T19:37:58Z Bike: yes.
2019-12-21T19:38:18Z phoe: but #'FIND is kinda well defined and pretty simple
2019-12-21T19:38:37Z Bike: the reader is also well defined. the algorithm is laid out in the standard in nauseating detail.
2019-12-21T19:38:43Z drmeister: Ok.   Adding three new files for one package is annoying me.   Ah - the sins of my youth coming back to haunt me.
2019-12-21T19:38:58Z Bike: i think only one of the headers was actually necessary. the other one's blank.
2019-12-21T19:39:05Z Bike: like, basically blank
2019-12-21T19:39:55Z White_Flame: of course, the implementation-provided versions of FIND et al can also optimize to the :test, :key etc parameters easier than doing it yourself
2019-12-21T19:40:07Z drmeister: The reader algorithm was the first thing that I implemented in clasp.  It was a long train trip from Boston to Philadelphia and I sketched the state machine diagram...
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2019-12-21T21:17:37Z markasoftware: when making my own "language" in lisp, is the normal way to define some (parse) function that uses (macrolet) to define a whole bunch of macros then just execute the &body statements?
2019-12-21T21:18:14Z markasoftware: so, (defun parse (&body body) `(macrolet ((special-language-keyword (whatever) whatever) ...) ,@body))
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2019-12-21T21:18:37Z markasoftware: (admittedly, parse is not the right name)
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2019-12-21T21:28:48Z aeth: markasoftware: Use destructuring-bind if you can get away with it. This encourages using plist tails and parsing with &key. A hypothetical easy-to-parse LOOP would look like this: (do-loop (:for i :from 1 :to 10) (:do (print i)))
2019-12-21T21:29:26Z aeth: markasoftware: Notice how '(:for i :from 1 :to 10) is easier to parse than loop's ":for i :from 1 :to 10" or "for i from 1 to 10" (it permits both)
2019-12-21T21:29:36Z markasoftware: ah, that would be a nice world to live in
2019-12-21T21:29:39Z aeth: This is because every symbol is a keyword so there's no need to intern, and the tail can be parsed with a plist.
2019-12-21T21:29:39Z markasoftware: thank!
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2019-12-21T21:29:55Z aeth: s/with a plist/as a plist with &key in destructuring-bind/
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2019-12-21T21:30:48Z aeth: you're welcome
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2019-12-21T21:44:12Z aeth: in case I was unclear, in my example (:for i :from 1 :to 10) would be (i :from 1 :to 10) by the time the macro deals with it because it would determine which branch to enter based on the CAR (in this case, :for) and then it would be parsed with (destructuring-bind (variable &key from to ...) list ...)
2019-12-21T21:44:17Z aeth: e.g. (destructuring-bind (variable &key from to) `(i :from 1 :to 10) (values variable from to))
2019-12-21T21:45:07Z aeth: and pretty much all of the logic can go into functions as long as they're wrapped in EVAL-WHEN or in a separate file from the DEFMACRO, which helps to keep things simple
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2019-12-21T21:55:37Z pfdietz: One thing I'd ask for in a macro:  if E is a subform of a macro form M, then E should also occur in the macroexpansion of M.   This is not always the case (ITERATE violates this).
2019-12-21T21:56:05Z pfdietz: By "subform" I mean a lisp form, something that is intended to be evaluated.
2019-12-21T21:57:12Z aeth: pfdietz: can you be more specific?
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2019-12-21T21:59:13Z Bike: seems like a pretty specific definition to me
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2019-12-21T21:59:51Z Bike: means you don't reconstruct forms or anything, which makes it harder to work out source info and probably other things
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2019-12-21T22:17:48Z phoe: pfdietz: you mean Lisp forms that ITERATE treats as Lisp code, or Lisp forms that it treats as its clauses?
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2019-12-21T22:18:38Z phoe: Because the latter aren't meant to be evaluated - they're just metadata for the iterator sprinkled all over the iteration body.
2019-12-21T22:19:14Z phoe: Alas, the former need to be reconstructed, even if just to remove all that aforementioned metadata.
2019-12-21T22:20:48Z aeth: Bike: sorry, that was poorly worded
2019-12-21T22:20:54Z aeth: pfdietz: where does ITERATE violate this?
2019-12-21T22:21:02Z aeth: I'm not really too aware of ITERATE's details
2019-12-21T22:22:06Z LdBeth: That’s why hygienic macro is invented
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2019-12-21T22:22:46Z phoe: LdBeth: is iterate unhygienic though?
2019-12-21T22:23:00Z phoe: I don't think it's an issue of accidental symbol shadowing
2019-12-21T22:24:04Z LdBeth: phoe: no, but hygienic macro can identify “keyword” and “expression”
2019-12-21T22:24:58Z LdBeth: My recommendation is avoid messing with symbol macros for parsing
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2019-12-21T22:25:32Z phoe: LdBeth: don't think that iterate is playing with symbol macros either
2019-12-21T22:25:34Z pfdietz: Hmm.  I think I misremembered.  ITERATE does allow the subforms to occur, but macroexpands some of them itself.
2019-12-21T22:25:34Z LdBeth: There’re some parsing libraries can parse lists
2019-12-21T22:25:42Z pfdietz: (in its walker)
2019-12-21T22:25:44Z phoe: I think it codewalks instead
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2019-12-21T22:27:24Z MichaelRaskin: It codewalks, but in an a bit weird way
2019-12-21T22:27:40Z LdBeth: s symobol d
2019-12-21T22:27:42Z pfdietz: And that would be fine.  What I wanted was to use the macroexpand hook to capture all the subforms of a form, to identify what form in the expansion each corresponds to.
2019-12-21T22:28:22Z aeth: I don't like codewalkers. They mess with refactoring things into helper functions. If you have to embed Lisp in a DSL, it should have one entry point and no exit point imo. So once you get into the Lisp code, the Lisp shouldn't be codewalked for the macro again. Sure, embed (+ 1 1) but then don't crawl through (+ 1 1) looking for (my-macro-again ...)
2019-12-21T22:28:47Z pfdietz: What iterate did do was break COVER (which plays a game of shadowing symbols like CL:IF with new versions COVER:IF, which ITERATE does not recognize.)
2019-12-21T22:29:07Z aeth: Imo, if you must do something like a codewalker, see if you can design your macro can be used recursively instead because then people who use lots of helper functions can still use it, no codewalker required.
2019-12-21T22:29:30Z pfdietz: AETH: I want code walkers for intrusive tooling, for example for coverage and mutation testing, not for use in deployed code.
2019-12-21T22:30:02Z pfdietz: This would be tooling one could apply to someone elses code.
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2019-12-21T22:30:04Z MichaelRaskin: A lot of time, a macrolet would be enough instead of a true codewalker
2019-12-21T22:34:24Z MichaelRaskin: And even though codewalking is impossible to do perfectly, people often do it way worse than it should be done
2019-12-21T22:36:51Z pfdietz: Why is it impossible to do perfectly?
2019-12-21T22:37:04Z pfdietz: (I guess it depends on what you mean by "perfectly")
2019-12-21T22:37:48Z pfdietz: (and what you mean by codewalking)
2019-12-21T22:38:06Z MichaelRaskin: Well, whatever is enought to produce macroexpand-all
2019-12-21T22:38:21Z pfdietz: Ok, I don't understand why that's impossible.
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2019-12-21T22:39:09Z MichaelRaskin: Well, my definition of perfectness includes being able to start inside a lexical environment getting it as an &environment parameter of a macros
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2019-12-21T22:39:44Z MichaelRaskin: And not using implementation-specific functions, because hu.dwim.walker already did that, and ended up bitrotting as implementations changed
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2019-12-21T22:40:24Z MichaelRaskin: In that case there is a combination of weird macrolet forms that will fool the code walke
2019-12-21T22:40:48Z pfdietz: Ah.   So the problem is that as you descend into macrolets and symbol-macrolets, you need to be able to consider those along with the environment you started with?
2019-12-21T22:41:08Z MichaelRaskin: Yes
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2019-12-21T22:42:09Z pfdietz: Why can't you just have your own env type, which has a field for that surrounding real env type?   And write your own macroexpand-1 that works on that new env type (invoking cl:macroexpand-1 if it has to).
2019-12-21T22:42:28Z MichaelRaskin: Basically you are obliged to pass an updated environment to all the macro subforms,and if they expect something from the original environment with a name you cannot obtain, and something additionally defined in the code you have walked, there is a problem
2019-12-21T22:43:16Z MichaelRaskin: Because the macro you macroexpand-1 is in the end a function that expects a single environment parameter which can be passed to the implementation's macroexpand-1
2019-12-21T22:43:54Z pfdietz: Ah!   You don't get to control which macroexpand-1 that macro function is called.  Ok.
2019-12-21T22:44:00Z pfdietz: is calling
2019-12-21T22:44:21Z MichaelRaskin: Yes
2019-12-21T22:44:28Z pfdietz: It's not just the macroexpand-1 in the walker, it's the other calls to it out "in the world".
2019-12-21T22:45:28Z MichaelRaskin: On the other hand, this level of complexity is not what people like to debug, either
2019-12-21T22:45:55Z pfdietz: And I assume you also looked into getting around this with the macroexpand hook.
2019-12-21T22:46:07Z MichaelRaskin: Well, not for long
2019-12-21T22:46:24Z MichaelRaskin: I mean, you cannot guaranteed _anything_ about the hook's fate
2019-12-21T22:46:42Z MichaelRaskin: You expand one macros, and its macro-function completely reconfigures the hook
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2019-12-21T22:47:28Z pfdietz: Ok.
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2019-12-21T22:48:05Z MichaelRaskin: If your code walking needs are limited, you could offload the environment handling back to the compiler
2019-12-21T22:48:15Z MichaelRaskin: (Agnostic Lizard supports this mode)
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2019-12-21T22:49:05Z MichaelRaskin: But well, the problem with (non-implementation-version-tied) code walkers is that they typically do not reach the level where horrible macrolet/macroexpand juggling breaks them
2019-12-21T22:49:58Z MichaelRaskin: Relatively benign things (that Agnostic Lizard handles easily) break many code walkers for arcane reasons
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2019-12-21T22:59:02Z haziz94: Newbie question. How do I display the result (eg numerical calculation) of a short program that is loaded from file? The program evaluates correctly but just reports true (T) as the result, without giving me the numerical result it evaluates to.
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2019-12-21T22:59:30Z phoe: haziz94: (print result)
2019-12-21T22:59:48Z phoe: but, if the returned value is T, then it might not work the way you intended
2019-12-21T23:00:45Z phoe: haziz94: post your code at https://plaster.tymoon.eu/ and lemme take a look
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2019-12-21T23:01:50Z White_Flame: typically, you load function definitions from a file, then call them from the REPL which will display the returned values of the function you call
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2019-12-21T23:02:31Z White_Flame: if you have toplevel forms that are not inside DEFUNs, they will run, but their output will not be printed automatically
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2019-12-21T23:04:28Z phoe: haziz94: actually post it here - I need to crash for the night
2019-12-21T23:04:38Z phoe: someone should be able to take a look
2019-12-21T23:04:47Z haziz94: phoe: Your answer does give me the response I am looking for.
2019-12-21T23:05:11Z phoe: haziz94: yay!
2019-12-21T23:05:26Z haziz94: Thanks!
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2019-12-21T23:05:50Z White_Flame: the function LOAD returns T, which might be what you're seeing
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2019-12-21T23:06:15Z White_Flame: (if it loads successfully)
2019-12-21T23:06:40Z pfdietz: MichaelRaskin: I get the feeling you explained all that to me before.  If so, I apologize for not remembering.
2019-12-21T23:06:44Z haziz94: White_Flame You are probably correct. I maybe seeing the evaluation of LOAD.
2019-12-21T23:07:02Z haziz94: I am using slime via emacs if it matters.
2019-12-21T23:07:06Z White_Flame: (load "blah.lisp") => T
2019-12-21T23:07:11Z White_Flame: yeah, slime is the right way
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2019-12-21T23:07:33Z White_Flame: if you're editing your functions in another buffer, the C-c C-k will compile & load the entire file into the lisp image, then you can call its functions
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2019-12-21T23:07:44Z White_Flame: you shouldn't need to manually (load ...) files from within SLIME
2019-12-21T23:08:10Z White_Flame: C-c C-c will evaluate the single expression under the cursor, if you want to reload a singular edited DEFUN instead of the entire file
2019-12-21T23:08:40Z White_Flame: there are some good SLIME cheatsheets out there that you can search for
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2019-12-21T23:09:49Z markasoftware: If I want + and * to have different definitions in a macro body, is (subst) my best bet?
2019-12-21T23:10:13Z markasoftware: or should i try to "unlock" the common-lisp package, whatever that means, then use flet or macrolet?
2019-12-21T23:11:00Z White_Flame: or you could be in a different package that shadows COMMON-LISP:+ or doesn't import it
2019-12-21T23:11:16Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, I would think those are special variables and so you could bind them with LET, but those names are hard to look up.
2019-12-21T23:11:19Z no-defun-allowed: clhs +
2019-12-21T23:11:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pl.htm
2019-12-21T23:12:01Z White_Flame: + and * are also REPL variables, so LET is free to bind them.  Just not its fdefinition
2019-12-21T23:12:01Z Bike: they are special variables, and binding them as special varaibles is fine, but they're also functions and binding them as functions is not fine.
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2019-12-21T23:12:24Z markasoftware: what's a repl variable?
2019-12-21T23:12:40Z grobe0ba: a variable set in the Read-Eval-Print-Loop?
2019-12-21T23:12:44Z haziz94: Another newbie question. I am aware of MAPCAR, and can write a short DEFUN that will recursively add all integers in a list, but is there a prebuilt addition function that will add all numbers in a list?
2019-12-21T23:12:45Z White_Flame: variables that the REPL itself manages.  * is the prior returned value, ** is the return value before that, etc
2019-12-21T23:12:46Z grobe0ba: or pertaining to it in some way
2019-12-21T23:12:48Z phoe: they're variables, except they are convenience variables set by the REPL for your use
2019-12-21T23:12:59Z phoe: haziz94: (reduce #'+ list)
2019-12-21T23:12:59Z Bike: haziz94: you can (apply #'+ list) or (reduce #'+ list).
2019-12-21T23:13:08Z markasoftware: eh, i guess adding a letter before my custom + isn't so hard
2019-12-21T23:13:22Z White_Flame: I would also like to point to #clschool, which is intended for newbie questions (although this channel is easier to find)
2019-12-21T23:13:49Z White_Flame: since sometimes the answers here will assume you already know a whole lot more ;)
2019-12-21T23:13:54Z haziz94: Thanks.
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2019-12-21T23:16:55Z haziz94: White_Flame : I did try to log into #clshool, but unlike #lisp, it is not allowing me to post. I also use IRC fairly infrequently so I maybe doing something wrong. #lisp let me login and post immediately however. I tried with both the web client as well as Thunderbird acting as an IRC client. I can also use Pidgin.
2019-12-21T23:17:20Z aeth: is your name registered? a while ago, freenode was hit by a spammer for months and months
2019-12-21T23:17:28Z aeth: so a lot of channels have anti-spam measures
2019-12-21T23:17:49Z aeth: #clschool is actually the replacement to a channel that had no active operators and so had to be abandoned because of the spam
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2019-12-22T01:41:00Z Xach: hmm, i can also link paths in backtraces, i think
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2019-12-22T03:52:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-22T05:12:17Z stylewarning: Sc
2019-12-22T05:12:21Z stylewarning: oops
2019-12-22T05:14:19Z beach: stylewarning: Hello.  Xach said you praised the work of jackdaniel.  What work were you referring to then?
2019-12-22T05:15:52Z stylewarning: He’s improved ECL in various ways for our quantum simulator, like specialized arrays of complex DF’s
2019-12-22T05:16:20Z beach: Got it.  Thanks!
2019-12-22T05:16:24Z stylewarning: Easy to work with, etc
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2019-12-22T05:53:36Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/v6Dy6pZcjS/
2019-12-22T05:53:43Z vms14: I've just started, but what's wrong?
2019-12-22T05:53:58Z vms14: should I go for a different approach?
2019-12-22T05:54:13Z vms14: have you some hints about?
2019-12-22T05:54:27Z vms14: I have no idea about what I should be aware
2019-12-22T05:55:03Z vms14: well, that (setf body) is wrong xD
2019-12-22T05:55:11Z White_Flame: ?INSUFFICIENT PROBLEM DESCRIPTION  ERROR
2019-12-22T05:55:13Z White_Flame: READY.
2019-12-22T05:55:41Z vms14: :O
2019-12-22T05:55:48Z White_Flame: it's much easier to tell you what's wrong if you tell us what error you're getting and what you're hoping to do with the code
2019-12-22T05:55:50Z beach: vms14: It is usually a bad idea to assign to parameters.  It can screw up your backtrace when you need to debug things.
2019-12-22T05:56:13Z vms14: White_Flame: I have no errors
2019-12-22T05:56:16Z vms14: I mean about design
2019-12-22T05:56:22Z vms14: I'm trying to make some sort of js transpiler
2019-12-22T05:57:09Z White_Flame: js-var should definitely output "var foo=3;", not "foo=3;"
2019-12-22T05:57:11Z vms14: beach: I suppose you mean that setf body, I'll remove it, idk why I was setting that if body is a rest parameter, so I won't put a list inside it
2019-12-22T05:57:50Z vms14: White_Flame: got it, I'll change that
2019-12-22T05:57:51Z White_Flame: presumably your name & values parameters have already been rendered to strings
2019-12-22T05:58:13Z vms14: nope, it's a very dirty approach
2019-12-22T05:58:20Z vms14: for example console-log
2019-12-22T05:58:27Z vms14: (console-log "meh" "oh" "'ohh'")
2019-12-22T05:58:34Z White_Flame: (let ((body (if (listp (car body))....)) is how you would scope your newly fixed up dependent body value
2019-12-22T05:58:35Z vms14: "console.log(meh,oh,'ohh');"
2019-12-22T05:59:23Z vms14: White_Flame: I don't really need that, since body will be always a list and it has no sense to put (js-function "name" "parameters" '("statement1" "statement2"))
2019-12-22T05:59:36Z White_Flame: I mean to avoid the setf body
2019-12-22T05:59:37Z vms14: since is a rest parameter, will be always a list
2019-12-22T05:59:57Z White_Flame: (car body) is not always a list, which is what is being checked
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2019-12-22T06:00:19Z vms14: yeah, because I was checking for that "use", but idk why the heck I did that
2019-12-22T06:00:39Z White_Flame: ah, k
2019-12-22T06:00:46Z vms14: (js-function "name" "parameters" '("statement1" "statement2")) I'll never do that, and it was what I was checking
2019-12-22T06:01:07Z vms14: I'll directly do (js-function "name" "parameters" "statement1" "statement2")
2019-12-22T06:02:07Z vms14: but idk if I should be doing that, or better to have some kind of interpreter
2019-12-22T06:02:19Z White_Flame: it all depends on what your input form is
2019-12-22T06:02:35Z vms14: that for example when you define a variable it maintains a list of defined variables or alike
2019-12-22T06:02:59Z White_Flame: but if you have anything AST-like, you can just do recursive descent to stringify all the statements & value expression
2019-12-22T06:04:39Z vms14: I did something with html, but since html is just a markup language and has a very straightforward syntax, it was easier, so I made a bad written macro that creates tags
2019-12-22T06:05:10Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/Nzx3sJrhhR/
2019-12-22T06:05:56Z vms14: now I'd like to do the same for js, but js is a programming language and won't be as easy
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2019-12-22T06:07:07Z White_Flame: it's still just a datastructure, just holding more stuff.  Scopes, functions, parameters, etc
2019-12-22T06:08:48Z vms14: I feel it will be a mess, that's why I asked for hints
2019-12-22T06:10:36Z vms14: I'd like them to be individual functions, not a macro that looks for symbols, so I can use stuff like mapcar and so on
2019-12-22T06:15:11Z White_Flame: yeah, that's basically what I said.  It's just a nested datastructure, where a function is a node in there
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2019-12-22T06:16:01Z White_Flame: and "function foo() {...}" as far as I know is equivalent to "var foo = function() {...}" so you might want to normalize on one or the other
2019-12-22T06:16:40Z vms14: I'll stick with function name()
2019-12-22T06:17:26Z vms14: I don't see the point in saving a function in a variable, even knowing js let's you do that
2019-12-22T06:17:34Z vms14: unless you want to use let
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2019-12-22T06:33:54Z vms14: (format t "~{~A~}" (list (js-var "meh" "['oh','my','cat']") (foreach "meh" (arrow "x" (console-log "x")))))
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2019-12-22T07:24:56Z boeg: I have an asdf system set up with two packages. In one package I have some helper functions. In the other package I can do `helper::function` to use a helper function form the first package, but is it possible to do something so the helper functions comes in to scope so I just can do `function` instead to reach it?
2019-12-22T07:25:56Z beach: boeg: First of all, you should export the names that you want client code to use.
2019-12-22T07:26:08Z beach: Using :: is a bad sign.
2019-12-22T07:26:14Z boeg: beach: oh, okay, didn't know that
2019-12-22T07:26:57Z beach: Then, you can :USE the helper package in the other package.
2019-12-22T07:27:39Z beach: Better, you can selectively import the symbols you need.
2019-12-22T07:28:48Z beach: But I think the best solution is to keep the package prefix, so that a person reading your code knows what package the symbol came from.
2019-12-22T07:29:11Z boeg: beach: ah, it works, I was missing the export, already had ":use"'d set up in my package config
2019-12-22T07:29:22Z boeg: just exporting and everything works as intended, thanks!
2019-12-22T07:30:42Z boeg: > But I think the best solution is to keep the package prefix, so that a person reading your code knows what package the symbol came from
2019-12-22T07:30:42Z boeg: It's a very good point! But I guess ... These functions are helper (debug) functions that are used everywhere in the other packages, so i think it makes sense leaving out the package. If it was used rarely, I'd agree
2019-12-22T07:31:11Z beach: Whatever.
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2019-12-22T08:48:43Z pjb: minion: memo for vms14: have you considered using parenscript?
2019-12-22T08:48:43Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell vms14 when he/she/it next speaks.
2019-12-22T08:52:37Z pjb: beach: in the case of boeg, you have a single system, and the fact that there are two packages is an implementation detail (one of them is a "helper" package).  In that case, it should not matter and clients should not be concerned by how the authors use the symbols across the internal packages.  :use'ing the package internal is a perfectly valid, internald choice.
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2019-12-22T12:58:45Z Xach: merry lispmas, one and all
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2019-12-22T13:14:37Z phoe: merry lispmas to you too
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2019-12-22T13:38:39Z hsaziz: What does Portacle use for code completion? I am trying to customize my Emacs setup rather than accept the entirety of Portacle.
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2019-12-22T13:42:07Z ebrasca: Xach: What is lispmas?
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2019-12-22T13:43:04Z ebrasca: hsaziz: I think portable uses slime for code completion.
2019-12-22T13:44:07Z pjb: ebrasca: https://termbin.com/h16k  there are parens in there!
2019-12-22T13:44:07Z phoe: hsaziz: slime-company I guess
2019-12-22T13:45:18Z hsaziz: ebrasca: It is certainly themed differently. Looks quite different from my vanilla Emacs with Slime/fancy.
2019-12-22T13:47:20Z hsaziz: And how do I allow free editing of parentheses within Portacle? I find the forced matching of parentheses a bit irritating at times.
2019-12-22T13:47:36Z ebrasca: hsaziz: Here portacle config files https://github.com/portacle/emacsd
2019-12-22T13:47:44Z Xach: ebrasca: it is the day we celebrate lisp and try to hack as best we can
2019-12-22T13:48:00Z Xach: ebrasca: i should mention that *every* day is lispmas, i just forget to say "merry lispmas" sometimes.
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2019-12-22T13:59:53Z hsaziz: ebrasca: Thanks.
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2019-12-22T14:01:09Z ZeNEX: Hello, is there an extensive common lisp reference manual online? Something like https://en.cppreference.com/w/ for CL?
2019-12-22T14:01:29Z ZeNEX: I've found a few but they are not updated or user friendly.
2019-12-22T14:02:50Z ArthurStrong: People pointing to HyperSpec often
2019-12-22T14:02:55Z ArthurStrong: IDK if it's fresh enough
2019-12-22T14:03:34Z ZeNEX: So I looked for make-instance in there and it did not appear, is it not part of CL?
2019-12-22T14:04:19Z ebrasca: ZeNEX: Do you mean someting like this http://clqr.boundp.org/clqr-letter-consec.pdf ?
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2019-12-22T14:05:29Z Xach: ZeNEX: when i want to look up known symbols, i use http://l1sp.org/cl/make-instance
2019-12-22T14:05:39Z ZeNEX: That's helpful, but I'd rather have an exhaustive HTML doc for CL.
2019-12-22T14:05:59Z Xach: make-instance is in the hyperspec.
2019-12-22T14:06:10Z Xach: the hyperspec is an exhaustive html doc for cl.
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2019-12-22T14:06:37Z ZeNEX: OK I just found it, looks like I was searching for something else...
2019-12-22T14:06:39Z ZeNEX: Thanks guys.
2019-12-22T14:11:05Z pfdietz: clhs make-instance
2019-12-22T14:11:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ins.htm
2019-12-22T14:12:04Z hsaziz: How do I make free editing of parentheses the default behavior in Portacle? I do not want it (at least for the moment) to automatically generate [and enforce] matched parentheses.
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2019-12-22T14:16:11Z Xach: hsaziz: I think that is due to paredit-mode, so toggling paredit-mode might help you.
2019-12-22T14:16:19Z Xach: I don't use portacle so I am not 100% certain
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2019-12-22T15:30:25Z beach: clothespin_: You can talk about your stuff on #sicl.  I am usually on from around 06:00 to around 18:00 UTC+1, but today I have had guests over for lunch, and I am a bit busy cleaning up.
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2019-12-22T16:25:20Z hsaziz: (car '((Happy Festivus!) 13)
2019-12-22T16:26:19Z decent-username: happy winter holiday!
2019-12-22T16:27:02Z hsaziz: Oops wrong parenthesisation!
2019-12-22T16:27:23Z hsaziz: (car '((Happy Festivus!) 13))
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2019-12-22T16:33:36Z pfdietz: For the (rest of-us)
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2019-12-22T19:15:25Z phoe: Is the NAMED-READTABLES repository at https://github.com/melisgl/named-readtables abandoned?
2019-12-22T19:16:10Z phoe: An issue I've made one and half a year ago was still not resolved, and the maintainer seemd inactive on GitHub.
2019-12-22T19:18:26Z pfdietz: I wonder how to arrange a better way to support these things.   It would have to involve a group of people, and a subset of the available packages.  Perhaps this could be a way of establishing a de facto standard library?
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2019-12-22T19:22:00Z Shinmera: pfdietz: If I understand you correctly Sharplispers is such a thing?
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2019-12-22T19:23:19Z phoe: pfdietz: sharplispers
2019-12-22T19:23:22Z pfdietz: Ok then
2019-12-22T19:27:40Z Shinmera: It's not /quite/ the same thing, as, if I understand, it's supposed to be a fallback for important projects that are no longer maintained by the original authors
2019-12-22T19:27:55Z Shinmera: rather than a proactive group that takes up maintenance of projects that have established themselves ahead of time.
2019-12-22T19:28:22Z phoe: Shinmera: sharplispers is a group of people who take care of abandoned projects that belong to the de facto standard library
2019-12-22T19:28:31Z phoe: that's my definition of it
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2019-12-22T19:28:47Z Shinmera: so pretty much what I said
2019-12-22T19:29:18Z phoe: ayup
2019-12-22T19:29:37Z phoe: except I've tried to tie my words into what pfdietz said
2019-12-22T19:29:40Z Shinmera: A more proactive approach could be good too, I think.
2019-12-22T19:29:47Z phoe: like, alexandria isn't under sharplispers since it has active maintainers
2019-12-22T19:30:03Z phoe: even though I can't imagine a more belongs-to-the-standard-library codebase than alexandria
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2019-12-22T20:00:08Z pfdietz: There, the question becomes how to add things to it, and who decides what goes in.
2019-12-22T20:03:57Z phoe: pfdietz: no idea, one could ask fe[nl]ix or Xach perhaps
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2019-12-22T20:22:38Z ym: Hi. macrolet defined in top unquoted part of defmacro won't work in it's quoted part, right?
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2019-12-22T20:25:45Z decent-username: ym: Do you want to use macrolet to make the macro code easier to read/maintain?
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2019-12-22T20:27:37Z earl-ducaine: RE: proactive approach to the CL core library. common-lisp.net, seems like a logical registry for projects, maintainers, official source locations, etc.
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2019-12-22T20:28:59Z earl-ducaine: But, it suffers the same problem that many CL projects do, much of the info is woefully out of date.
2019-12-22T20:29:32Z ym: decent-username, I'm want to write xlib wrapper to make xlib's functions easier to work with. with-x macro takes body and should convert for example (xlib:draw-arc drawable gc x y ...) into (circle x y r). So circle should be available from with-x only.
2019-12-22T20:30:15Z decent-username: hm...
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2019-12-22T20:30:56Z MichaelRaskin: You just need to insert the macrolet into the expansion (quoted part, so to say)
2019-12-22T20:31:25Z ym: Hmm. Got it, gonna try, thanks.
2019-12-22T20:31:40Z decent-username: the expanded code would have the macrolet and it should be accessible from within.
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2019-12-22T20:32:06Z decent-username: you will be able to use the macro if the expanded code has the macrolet.
2019-12-22T20:32:14Z decent-username: It shouldn't be too hard.
2019-12-22T20:32:44Z ym: I thought it's not good idea to nest `-code.
2019-12-22T20:33:34Z pfdietz: It would be interesting to trawl through quicklisp to find functions that lots of people have copied, and move them into Alexandria.
2019-12-22T20:34:20Z decent-username: ym: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html
2019-12-22T20:34:31Z decent-username: scroll to the very bottom.
2019-12-22T20:34:59Z decent-username: There's a box, which contains a macro with nested `-forms.
2019-12-22T20:35:32Z decent-username: if PCL does it, it can't be wrong. haha
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2019-12-22T20:38:17Z MichaelRaskin: pfdietz: probably with variable-renaming detection
2019-12-22T20:38:46Z ym: Yep, it works. Thanks again.
2019-12-22T20:38:54Z decent-username: nice to hear.
2019-12-22T20:38:58Z MichaelRaskin: pfdietz: Actually, maybe you should just look for repeating AST subtrees?
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2019-12-22T20:39:40Z MichaelRaskin: ym: `-nesting definitely has some cost in terms of ease of reasoning. There are quite a few cases where it is still the cheapest approach
2019-12-22T20:40:24Z phoe: earl-ducaine: I've heard voices that gitlab.cl.net is not a good place because of it being hard to reach from the outside - invitations and so on
2019-12-22T20:40:44Z phoe: but then again, I can't see how it can be fought differently unless one hires a spam-fighting person
2019-12-22T20:40:54Z phoe: and this discussion might belong better on #common-lisp.net
2019-12-22T20:41:11Z phoe: pfdietz: alexandria has yet another issue due to being widespread
2019-12-22T20:41:44Z phoe: if alexandria introduces an exported symbol named FOO, how many people who :use :alexandria will get symbol conflicts due to alexandria being used along with other packages?
2019-12-22T20:42:13Z phoe: its export list is pretty much frozen in stone due to that, since it introducing new exported symbols might (and will) break user code
2019-12-22T20:42:27Z earl-ducaine: I'm trying to create a macro, defreplace, that emits a macro such that (defreplace name newname) would create the macro  (defmacro name (&body body) `(newname ,@body))
2019-12-22T20:42:49Z earl-ducaine: I can't believe I'm totally stuck on such a simple macro.
2019-12-22T20:43:03Z phoe: whose fault is it? I say no one's, since there was no good solution for nicknames before PLNs (and even PLNs aren't all the best that we could possibly get)
2019-12-22T20:43:10Z phoe: what do we do about it? I'm happy to hear answers about this one
2019-12-22T20:43:16Z phoe: s/about/for/
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2019-12-22T20:45:27Z pfdietz: phoe: trawling quicklisp will also tell you which symbols would collide, at least with everything in quicklisp that uses Alexandria.
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2019-12-22T20:46:07Z pfdietz: But it does suggest that :USE has problems.  :IMPORT-FROM doesn't suffer from that issue.
2019-12-22T20:46:11Z phoe: pfdietz: hmm. That is a workable approach.
2019-12-22T20:46:15Z phoe: pfdietz: or PLNs.
2019-12-22T20:46:28Z phoe: Again though, :USE is convenient, whereas :IMPORT-FROM is not.
2019-12-22T20:47:01Z pfdietz: Wanted: tool that automatically produces the IMPORT-FROM list.
2019-12-22T20:48:33Z MichaelRaskin: Hmm, that doesn't even require code-walking
2019-12-22T20:48:38Z pfdietz: earl-ducaine: macros that create macros tempt one to use nested backquote forms.  Resist this temptation.   Use unnested backquoutes with separate helper functions.
2019-12-22T20:48:46Z MichaelRaskin: But then you need to maintain the list
2019-12-22T20:48:53Z _death: earl-ducaine: start at "Consider this set of sample values:" in https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node367.html#SECTION003600000000000000000
2019-12-22T20:50:23Z pfdietz: Once you're using IMPORT-FROM, you just add names as needed.
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2019-12-22T21:09:04Z earl-ducaine: _death: I hadn't looked at the CLTL appendix on macros. Sadly, it didn't help.  The only solution I could find was to manipulate  the defmacro form as a list. https://gist.github.com/earl-ducaine/3151a85c5b2a0ee6888ccab306cd28da
2019-12-22T21:11:31Z pfdietz: The book On Lisp goes heavily into macros-that-produce-macros, as I recall.
2019-12-22T21:14:46Z _death: earl-ducaine: since you want to use newname's value (an arbitrary object, not a form to be evaluated, that's available when the outer backquote is evaluated) you want to use ,',newname, i.e. (defmacro defreplace (name newname) `(defmacro ,name (&body body) `(,',newname ,@body)))
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2019-12-22T21:17:25Z pfdietz: Or, you can use a helper function and not nest the backquotes.  I find that approach much less confusing.
2019-12-22T21:18:53Z phoe: ^
2019-12-22T21:19:06Z phoe: you can do double backquotes, the question is whether it's worth it
2019-12-22T21:19:27Z phoe: it's been a while since I answered this question for myself with a "no, not at all"
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2019-12-22T21:20:50Z earl-ducaine: _death: Yes, that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!
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2019-12-22T21:28:56Z flip214: phoe: I've started a call for ideas for a ALEXANDRIA-2 package... merge requests welcome, or just push to the branch
2019-12-22T21:32:08Z _death: perhaps it would be a good idea to improve the implementation of operators already defined
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2019-12-22T21:38:43Z aeth: As far as going beyond PLNs, CL needs hierarchical packages. Right now you can kind of sort of fake it with uiop:define-package's use-reexport or at least one other library that does something similar, but it's not ideal sicne they're still all top level packages, just with / to fake a hierarchy that's not there.
2019-12-22T21:39:00Z aeth: s/sicne/since/
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2019-12-22T21:41:24Z pfdietz: Hierarchical packages solve the problem of "export to my neighbors, but not to the outside world"?
2019-12-22T21:41:58Z aeth: pfdietz: Sort of. They solve the problem of controlling what goes to the outside world.
2019-12-22T21:42:29Z aeth: pfdietz: So e.g. you can use-reexport 7 of 9 packages, and juse use 2 packages (in addition to CL, obviously), keeping them essentially 'private'
2019-12-22T21:43:41Z aeth: s/juse use/just use/
2019-12-22T21:46:02Z aeth: Hierarchical packages could enforce this a bit more because if it's not a public package then it would be restricted to the other subpackages (although there might have to be some escape hatch for testing packages)
2019-12-22T21:47:18Z aeth: So I guess exactly what you said, then.
2019-12-22T21:48:26Z aeth: It's "export to my neighbors [and parent], but not to the outside world [unless the parent says so]" with the addition of a use-reexport for convenience.
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2019-12-22T22:11:16Z pfdietz: Cool, ty
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2019-12-22T22:16:13Z no-defun-allowed: Can I invoke the Lisp compiler with a form like `(funcall #<function> values...)`, with a function object directly provided to it?
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2019-12-22T22:23:15Z Shinmera: as long as you don't dump it, sure.
2019-12-22T22:23:59Z Shinmera: objects, unless otherwise specified, are self-evaluating.
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2019-12-22T22:36:26Z no-defun-allowed: Alright, thanks.
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2019-12-22T23:47:23Z ym: Is there a library for implementation portable time and schedulers handling?
2019-12-22T23:49:15Z fe[nl]ix: ym: try trivial-timers
2019-12-22T23:49:49Z phoe: or confusingly-similarly-named trivial-timer
2019-12-22T23:50:26Z pfdietz: trivial-timers was last updated 9 years ago, the other just recently.
2019-12-22T23:50:30Z phoe: seriously, both are in quicklisp and it seems that the plural version was last updated in 2010 while th--
2019-12-22T23:50:37Z phoe: this
2019-12-22T23:50:38Z pfdietz: jinx!
2019-12-22T23:51:42Z pfdietz: This question was answered by having the entire quicklisp dist downloaded, and ls -ld *time* in quicklisp/dist/quicklisp/software/
2019-12-22T23:51:48Z pfdietz: dists
2019-12-22T23:52:18Z ym: Thanks. Strange that https://cliki.net/time doesn't has it in list.
2019-12-22T23:53:14Z phoe: pfdietz: (ql:system-apropos "timer")
2019-12-22T23:53:26Z phoe: no need to download the whole dist
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2019-12-22T23:53:52Z phoe: ym: cliki tends to be outdated. Everyone and no one maintains it.
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2019-12-23T01:53:00Z pfdietz: I download the entire dist anyway for various activities that involve trawling through all the source.
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2019-12-23T02:03:39Z Xach: i like trawling
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2019-12-23T02:04:06Z Xach: i still want a trawl that dumps out everything the compiler accumulates for static use later
2019-12-23T02:04:29Z Xach: like everything in sb-introspect
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2019-12-23T02:06:54Z ym: Xach, hi. Is your timer library orphaned?
2019-12-23T02:07:11Z ym: Can't find it in your github.
2019-12-23T02:12:03Z Xach: ym: it has been integrated into sbcl
2019-12-23T02:12:10Z Xach: ym: it never ran on anything else
2019-12-23T02:12:51Z Xach: it predates the invention of github
2019-12-23T02:14:29Z ym: Lol.
2019-12-23T02:14:44Z ym: Can't get how do I use it from the box.
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2019-12-23T02:18:10Z Xach: ym: what do you want to do?
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2019-12-23T02:31:39Z ym: Never mind, I found examples in sbcl's source tree.
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2019-12-23T03:16:24Z no-defun-allowed: What could I do to detect cycles in an object graph, while allowing multiple objects to point to one object?
2019-12-23T03:17:32Z no-defun-allowed: For example, A→B, A→C, B→D, C→D should be allowed, but A→B, B→C, C→A should not be.
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2019-12-23T03:31:17Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: how big is the graph?
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2019-12-23T03:31:41Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: I can't say for sure.
2019-12-23T03:32:22Z no-defun-allowed: I can't say at all, actually, but probably not "big".
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2019-12-23T05:20:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-23T05:29:05Z ahungry: howdy
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2019-12-23T05:40:06Z MichaelRaskin: no-defun-allowed: I have a feeling that this will require a superlinear overhead, either in time or in space
2019-12-23T05:41:18Z no-defun-allowed: MichaelRaskin: Could do. When I searched for it, all the examples I saw would disallow the former graph.
2019-12-23T05:42:23Z MichaelRaskin: Well, there is, say Floyd-Warshall algorithm which can be used for graph cycle detection
2019-12-23T05:43:40Z MichaelRaskin: Or you could store transitive-closure bitmap at each node.
2019-12-23T05:43:41Z beach: Why is a hash table of visited nodes not possible?
2019-12-23T05:44:09Z no-defun-allowed: I would like to allow for shared structure, but not circular structure.
2019-12-23T05:44:55Z MichaelRaskin: beach: it is, but it might be needed per-node, and so requires a superconstant per-node storage
2019-12-23T05:45:19Z MichaelRaskin: no-defun-allowed: do you want to allow modification?
2019-12-23T05:45:56Z no-defun-allowed: MichaelRaskin: I don't think modification is necessary.
2019-12-23T05:46:18Z MichaelRaskin: Then you could just have your graph, and only allow adding references to earlier nodes
2019-12-23T05:46:50Z MichaelRaskin: So, you add a node and all of its outgoing edges.
2019-12-23T05:47:21Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
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2019-12-23T07:31:22Z markasoftware: How can I safely determine whether a symbol names a function in the current environment from my macro definition?
2019-12-23T07:31:43Z markasoftware: There's (function), but it errors out if the parameter is not a function
2019-12-23T07:32:20Z markasoftware: (i may not be using the word "symbol" correctly -- I want to know if a name names a function, maybe?)
2019-12-23T07:32:53Z no-defun-allowed: (fboundp <symbol>) => <generalized boolean>
2019-12-23T07:33:17Z markasoftware: does that work with flet no-defun-allowed?
2019-12-23T07:33:23Z markasoftware: I thought it did not
2019-12-23T07:33:33Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: run tarjan's algorithm for topological sorsting?
2019-12-23T07:34:08Z no-defun-allowed: markasoftware: No, CL doesn't provide anything to inspect local environments.
2019-12-23T07:34:18Z no-defun-allowed: Shinmera: That was another suggestion. Guess I could do that.
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2019-12-23T07:35:03Z markasoftware: isn't (macro-function) sort of a way to inspect the local environment?
2019-12-23T07:35:12Z markasoftware: not in the way i want
2019-12-23T07:35:30Z beach: markasoftware: You can always handle the error.
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2019-12-23T07:48:03Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: I once wrote a cycle-detecting algorithm in Lisp. One second...
2019-12-23T07:50:09Z phoe: ...well, maybe not, since it's ugly and slow as hell
2019-12-23T07:54:52Z no-defun-allowed: It could be possible to write a function that, given an object, finds that object in the object's references, and then another to find all the objects in a graph. Then I just check over every object with the first function.
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2019-12-23T07:56:50Z MichaelRaskin: no-defun-allowed: yes, that has complexity number of objects times number of references
2019-12-23T07:57:37Z MichaelRaskin: But if you create nodes one by one without modification cycles it is impossible to create a cycle anyway
2019-12-23T07:57:44Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed.
2019-12-23T07:58:50Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, I interpreted "modification" as "cycle detection occurs when an object is modified", which isn't right.
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2019-12-23T08:03:08Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: uh wait a second
2019-12-23T08:03:22Z phoe: oh, that is correct, yes
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2019-12-23T13:09:33Z jmercouris: hello, I'm having a bit of an issue with generating a string
2019-12-23T13:09:44Z jmercouris: I am using parenscript which automatically handles strings in some way
2019-12-23T13:10:06Z jmercouris: What I'm trying to do is produce the following javascript: var z = document.querySelector("[next-identifier='J']");
2019-12-23T13:10:11Z jmercouris: not a very complex statement
2019-12-23T13:11:24Z jmercouris: I am doing this: (ps:ps (ps:chain document (query-selector (ps:lisp (format nil "[next-identifier=\"~a\"]" "J")))))
2019-12-23T13:11:36Z jmercouris: which unfortunately produces this: "document.querySelector('[next-identifier=\\\"J\\\"]');"
2019-12-23T13:11:42Z jmercouris: some sort of triply escaped quote
2019-12-23T13:12:01Z jmercouris: I guess something is trying to escape the quotes I already escaped?
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2019-12-23T13:13:29Z jackdaniel: did you try to print it with princ?
2019-12-23T13:14:06Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: the result of format, or what specifically?
2019-12-23T13:14:11Z jmercouris: the whole parenscript statement?
2019-12-23T13:15:43Z jmercouris: so the whole statement princ'd looks like: document.querySelector('[next-identifier=\"J\"]');
2019-12-23T13:15:57Z jackdaniel: is this correct?
2019-12-23T13:16:01Z jmercouris: this is incorrect
2019-12-23T13:16:14Z jmercouris: I want it to look like this: document.querySelector('[next-identifier="J"]');
2019-12-23T13:16:29Z jackdaniel: what is a difference in javascript between '' pair and "" pair?
2019-12-23T13:17:03Z jackdaniel: (also, do you know how strings are printed in Common Lisp?; speaking of escaping #\")
2019-12-23T13:17:07Z jmercouris: apparently they are the same thing
2019-12-23T13:17:40Z jmercouris: I'm only familiar with the printer on a most cursory level
2019-12-23T13:17:40Z jackdaniel: how they are printed *readably* that is
2019-12-23T13:17:48Z jmercouris: Yes, I know a very small amount about that
2019-12-23T13:17:54Z jmercouris: I knew what you meant
2019-12-23T13:18:23Z jmercouris: now, I WOULD just change the type of quotes I'm using to swap single and double
2019-12-23T13:18:27Z jmercouris: but parenscript will not let me do that
2019-12-23T13:18:31Z jackdaniel: to be capable to read back string by a reader, it is enclosed with a pair of #\", any #\" inside is escaped to avoid ambiguity
2019-12-23T13:18:33Z jmercouris: it automatically encapsulates all strings in single quotes
2019-12-23T13:18:51Z jackdaniel: princ prints the string aesthetically, basically what a ~A directive does in format
2019-12-23T13:20:25Z jackdaniel: regarding the order questions (i.e that you don't like the order of quotes) it is irrelevant from correctnes, I suppose that there is some variable controlling that in postscript internals
2019-12-23T13:20:34Z jackdaniel: correctness point of view°
2019-12-23T13:20:35Z jmercouris: postscript?
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2019-12-23T13:20:41Z jackdaniel: parenscript
2019-12-23T13:21:02Z jmercouris: the order is irrelevant, yes
2019-12-23T13:21:24Z jmercouris: BUT I could easily write (format nil "[potato='fish']") and get correct output, however parenscript will wrap it again
2019-12-23T13:21:32Z jmercouris: and then I get: document.querySelector('[next-identifier=\\'J\\']');
2019-12-23T13:21:36Z jmercouris: which is incorrect javascript
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2019-12-23T13:22:08Z jmercouris: the only documentation I found on the matter is here: https://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/reference.html#ssection-strings-chars
2019-12-23T13:22:35Z jackdaniel: I think you should read about printer, because I think that the product you've mentioned is equivalent to what you have expected from it to print. (or print strings with princ for verification)
2019-12-23T13:22:57Z jmercouris: I'll investigate
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2019-12-23T13:29:05Z phoe: jmercouris: wait a second though
2019-12-23T13:29:17Z phoe: TEST> (format t "document.querySelector('[next-identifier=\\\"J\\\"]');")
2019-12-23T13:29:17Z phoe: document.querySelector('[next-identifier=\"J\"]');
2019-12-23T13:29:25Z phoe: isn't this what you want?
2019-12-23T13:29:43Z phoe: in \\\", the first slash escapes the second slash and the third slash escapes the quote
2019-12-23T13:30:00Z jackdaniel: phoe: that's what I've suggested a few minutes back?
2019-12-23T13:31:03Z jmercouris: maybe?
2019-12-23T13:31:10Z jmercouris: all of these slashes are starting to confuse me
2019-12-23T13:31:41Z phoe: jackdaniel: I'm still reading the text (though I admit that it is surprisingly heavy on my eyes, with two people talking with equal nick length and first letter of their nickname)
2019-12-23T13:31:53Z phoe: (I never thought it would become a readability issue for me!)
2019-12-23T13:32:11Z jackdaniel: yes, I find it very unfortunate that jmercouris nick has the same length and the same first letter
2019-12-23T13:32:23Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: sure, just change your name to dkochmansi
2019-12-23T13:32:32Z jmercouris: kochmanski*
2019-12-23T13:32:43Z phoe googles for colored nicks in irssi in meantime
2019-12-23T13:32:56Z jmercouris: phoe: it is supported in circe
2019-12-23T13:32:57Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure where did it come from, but that was kind of rude, see you later
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2019-12-23T13:33:15Z jackdaniel: (and you are welcome for help)
2019-12-23T13:33:16Z jmercouris: It wasn't rude, but OK
2019-12-23T13:33:24Z jmercouris: thanks indeed for the help!
2019-12-23T13:33:33Z phoe: jmercouris: anyway, it's a non-issue - the escaping works as intended in Lisp
2019-12-23T13:33:44Z jmercouris: phoe: I don't know about that :-D
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2019-12-23T13:33:53Z phoe: jmercouris: then learn up~
2019-12-23T13:34:01Z jmercouris: (ps:ps (ps:chain document (query-selector (ps:lisp (format nil "[next-identifier=\\\"~a\\\"]" "J"))))) -> document.querySelector('[next-identifier=\\\\\\\"J\\\\\\\"]');
2019-12-23T13:34:01Z jackdaniel: that stays in contrary to your claims that you know cl pretty well, just saying
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2019-12-23T13:34:43Z jmercouris: I'm not a language master, I've been doing CL for like 2 or 3 years now
2019-12-23T13:34:51Z jmercouris: however, stop gatekeeping me, I know more than most people
2019-12-23T13:36:00Z phoe: jmercouris: the issue is that you print slashes in FORMAT NIL
2019-12-23T13:36:15Z phoe: PS> (format t (ps:ps (ps:chain document (query-selector (ps:lisp (format nil "[next-identifier=\"~a\"]" "J"))))))
2019-12-23T13:36:18Z phoe: document.querySelector('[next-identifier=\"J\"]');
2019-12-23T13:38:13Z phoe goes "aaaaaah~" after installing colornicks in irssi - much better now
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2019-12-23T13:41:39Z uint: phoe: do you happen to have a link to that close by? sounds handy
2019-12-23T13:43:07Z phoe: uint: "/run scriptassist" then "/script install nickcolor" should do it for irssi.
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2019-12-23T13:47:58Z jmercouris: parenscript is indeed doing stuff to how things are printing...
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2019-12-23T13:49:25Z jmercouris: somehow somebody is messing with the string on the way to the interpreter...
2019-12-23T13:49:30Z jmercouris: the rabbit hole goes deeper..
2019-12-23T13:49:46Z phoe sings, the ciiiiiiircle of liiiiiife™
2019-12-23T13:49:50Z jmercouris: the way you wrote the string, which I had tried before, was correct...
2019-12-23T13:49:56Z jmercouris: it seems the problem is not where I think it is
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2019-12-23T13:56:46Z uint: phoe: thanks!
2019-12-23T13:59:37Z jmercouris: OK, so the problem was actually in JS...
2019-12-23T13:59:56Z jmercouris: parenscript has got to be the hardest CL to debug, I think I'll make some tools for that
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2019-12-23T14:01:36Z phoe: jmercouris: do you have unit tests for your code? I mean both unit tests for the code that uses PS to generate stuff and unit tests that test the generated JS
2019-12-23T14:01:52Z jmercouris: phoe: not yet, not for that part at least, but that is a good idea!
2019-12-23T14:02:27Z phoe: jmercouris: some time ago I have noticed that I cannot put trust in code that is not properly tested, and unit tests are a pretty cheap and simple way to increase that trust
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2019-12-23T15:15:20Z Xach: https://github.com/aruscher/clombinatorics wins an award for best shoehorn of cl into a project name, 2019
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2019-12-23T15:18:27Z phoe: (defclass clombinatorix () ...)
2019-12-23T15:18:27Z phoe: nice
2019-12-23T15:19:17Z phoe: ......oh no
2019-12-23T15:19:34Z phoe: I looked at the person's other code repositories and I saw a dangerous thing
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2019-12-23T15:31:24Z beach: Xach: Bah, no-defun-allowed has a project called clomptroller.
2019-12-23T15:32:42Z phoe: beach: no-defun-allowed: I want to see it now
2019-12-23T15:34:16Z beach: phoe: no-defun-allowed might be asleep.
2019-12-23T15:34:39Z beach: Colleen: time in Melbourne
2019-12-23T15:34:39Z Colleen: The time in Melbourne is 2019.12.24 02:34:39.
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2019-12-23T15:35:51Z vms14: do you have some hints about metaprogramming?
2019-12-23T15:35:52Z minion: vms14, memo from pjb: have you considered using parenscript?
2019-12-23T15:36:03Z vms14: pjb: I was thinking about
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2019-12-23T15:36:17Z vms14: I guess I should
2019-12-23T15:37:18Z vms14: but I like to do things by my own, even if they will suck compared with stuff made by others, but I also learn in that process
2019-12-23T15:37:53Z vms14: atm what I have is symbols with properties :name and :js
2019-12-23T15:38:27Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/M9nGWJXMHq/
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2019-12-23T15:40:33Z Xach: beach: hmm, that could take the crown instead
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2019-12-23T15:56:38Z beach: vms14: What is your definition of "metaprogramming"?
2019-12-23T15:56:59Z beach: vms14: I mean, pretty much any Common Lisp macro generates code.
2019-12-23T15:58:42Z vms14: beach: things to be aware, or some light/introduction about
2019-12-23T15:58:55Z vms14: I feel very lost while doing this
2019-12-23T15:59:05Z vms14: and it's just some sort of js transpiler
2019-12-23T16:00:11Z beach: I still don't know your definition, but that sounds like plain old programming to me.
2019-12-23T16:00:42Z vms14: my problem is idk what approach I should take
2019-12-23T16:00:58Z vms14: for example I've started with functions returning only transpiled js text
2019-12-23T16:01:12Z vms14: but it's a problem and I need to have track of what I'm doing
2019-12-23T16:01:14Z phoe: your questions are way too general for me to be able understand what *exactly* your problem is
2019-12-23T16:01:19Z beach: I understand, but that does not make your problem one of metaprogramming.
2019-12-23T16:01:28Z vms14: oh
2019-12-23T16:01:41Z phoe: it does seem like you have a problem with structuring your original issue in general
2019-12-23T16:01:51Z phoe: like, how to even approach trying to transpile CL into JS
2019-12-23T16:02:09Z phoe: and this isn't a CL problem, this is a software architecture problem
2019-12-23T16:03:09Z phoe: some CL features and gimmicks might help you with working on the architecture, but CL won't completely erase the fact that you need to figure out the logic of how exactly your compiler is going to work
2019-12-23T16:03:20Z phoe: and what its internal logical structure is supposed to be like
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2019-12-23T16:04:59Z pjb: vms14: in general, it's useful to have an internal representation of the thing you want to generate, so you can manipulate it before generating it. So instead of generating directly the final code, generate a data structure that represents the final code.  Then you can have functions to generate the code from this data structure, or to process it otherwise.
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2019-12-23T16:07:02Z vms14: pjb ty for the hint
2019-12-23T16:07:13Z vms14: that was what I was looking for
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2019-12-23T16:33:36Z phoe: Random piece of news: LispWorks is going to add PLN support in their next release.
2019-12-23T16:34:19Z phoe: mfiano: ^
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2019-12-23T16:55:50Z Xach: nice
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2019-12-23T17:00:13Z phoe: I'm still waiting to hear from Franz.
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2019-12-23T17:10:28Z phoe: I heard from Franz! ACL already has PLN support: https://franz.com/support/patches/log/10.1/index.lhtml#lisp_pma017_003
2019-12-23T17:11:19Z phoe: So this means that once LW releases, CLISP will be the only remaining alive implementation without PLNs.
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2019-12-23T17:20:37Z Xach: that is cool
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2019-12-23T17:36:01Z phoe: Time to update trivial-p-l-n.
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2019-12-23T20:51:45Z galdor: does it mean one will be able to use package local nicknames without using the trivial- system ?
2019-12-23T20:52:45Z jackdaniel: in defpackage operator yes
2019-12-23T20:52:47Z Xach: galdor: My understanding is that you can use much of the functionality directly but some functionality has to be papered over with the trivial-pln thing, because e.g. modifying and querying nicknames is in implementation-specific packages.
2019-12-23T20:52:57Z Xach: I wish that were not the case
2019-12-23T20:53:01Z jackdaniel: for parts of the protocol (i.e add-local-package-nickname function), you need to take them from a package
2019-12-23T20:53:05Z jackdaniel: which differ
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2019-12-23T20:53:33Z phoe: galdor: yes.
2019-12-23T20:53:51Z phoe: the part that actually matters for an average programmer is going to be integrated into CL:DEFPACKAGE.
2019-12-23T20:54:08Z phoe: Only if you need to programmatically query the nicknames or add/remove them, the trivial-pln package might be useful for you.
2019-12-23T20:54:25Z phoe: (Or if you want to run trivial-pln's test suite, which I need to remove into a separate ASDF system.)
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2019-12-23T20:56:20Z no-defun-allowed: beach, phoe: I hate to disappoint but I don't feel like Clomptroller is of the same quality as my other projects, nor is it any good for accounting.
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2019-12-23T20:58:08Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: oh well, okay
2019-12-23T20:58:59Z no-defun-allowed: That is partially because it was a project for school, and most of my time was spent planning which left me with little time to program.
2019-12-23T20:59:37Z p_l: Xach: I wonder if we could have a small panel at ELS or the like where integration of new common functionality could be discussed by people from implementation vendors/maintainers
2019-12-23T20:59:44Z no-defun-allowed: So I don't really want to release it.
2019-12-23T20:59:44Z phoe: Xach: galdor: someone from the Lisp Discord server has asked me for a very brief description/example of how PLNs might be used, and I've quickly thrown together some words at https://gist.github.com/phoe/2b63f33a2a4727a437403eceb7a6b4a3 that badly needs some proofreading, and likely removal of like 70% of its contents. Mostly because it's less of an actual blog article and more of a tired holiday shitpost.
2019-12-23T21:00:11Z galdor: oh nice!
2019-12-23T21:00:13Z phoe: p_l: so, basically, extending the de-facto standard library?
2019-12-23T21:00:31Z p_l: phoe: yes
2019-12-23T21:00:53Z no-defun-allowed: A comptroller "is a management-level position responsible for supervising the quality of accounting and financial reporting of an organization."
2019-12-23T21:01:04Z pilne: so something kinda like cl21 but "officially standard"?
2019-12-23T21:01:07Z phoe: galdor: I'm tired, and particularly salty today after realizing that my first paycheck for 2020 is unexpectedly small, so only tell me it's nice once you've verified that this text is worth the time.
2019-12-23T21:01:16Z galdor: I'm reading it :)
2019-12-23T21:01:18Z phoe: pilne: and without the issues that plague cl21.
2019-12-23T21:01:34Z pilne: fair
2019-12-23T21:01:53Z p_l: phoe: I mean, variations of nicknames and hierarchical names have been going on in various implementations since late 1980s or early 1990s
2019-12-23T21:02:04Z phoe: p_l: yes, but I don't think you only want to stop at PLNs
2019-12-23T21:02:07Z Xach: p_l: it is good for stakeholders to discuss things. i think els attracts only a particular type of stakeholder - not enough
2019-12-23T21:02:19Z phoe: I'm curious about what other things you have in mind
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2019-12-23T21:02:46Z p_l: Xach: I think the only implementation that wasn't represented at the ELSes I've been at, that is still alive, is CMU
2019-12-23T21:03:07Z p_l: maaaaybe CLISP
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2019-12-23T21:03:24Z galdor: @phoe it was interesting :)
2019-12-23T21:03:33Z p_l: ... come to think of it, both kinda float around death/undeath point
2019-12-23T21:03:38Z phoe: maybe the stars begin to align and the time finally becomes right for CLtL4 to happen, now that CLtL3 has been more or less dead for ten years https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8kuvw/cltl3_codifying_modern_common_lisp/
2019-12-23T21:03:39Z galdor: I really like to possibility to stop using :USE
2019-12-23T21:03:47Z p_l: Xach: so I think we could have a possibility
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2019-12-23T21:04:01Z phoe: galdor: PLNs give you that chance, and I'm already utilizing that chance in the new code that I write
2019-12-23T21:04:02Z galdor: because up to now it was either introducing potential conflicts or typing really long package names
2019-12-23T21:04:02Z p_l: I'm not talking anything big
2019-12-23T21:04:12Z phoe: galdor: bingo, exactly this
2019-12-23T21:04:45Z MichaelRaskin: I guess a unified name for things everyone has already implemented should be low-conflict enough to say ELS is representative enough
2019-12-23T21:04:55Z galdor: actually the most exciting thing is that it feels to me it's the first time almost all CL implementations manage to agree to evolve something that fundamental
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2019-12-23T21:05:20Z p_l: so, if PLNs are finally getting into common use *without* using your own CL package, after 30 years, I'd like to get shit a bit faster
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2019-12-23T21:05:36Z p_l: I know that Franz and LW might not have much manpower to push changes
2019-12-23T21:06:22Z p_l: but getting some common ground and possibly public domain code that could be adapted without legal issues in spirit of cooperation...
2019-12-23T21:06:32Z galdor: so the new "clean" way would be 1/ no :NICKNAMES 2/ no :USE (apart from :CL) and 3/ :LOCAL-NICKNAMES
2019-12-23T21:07:01Z p_l knows he is a dreamer
2019-12-23T21:07:13Z phoe: galdor: not really the first time I think
2019-12-23T21:07:40Z phoe: Gray streams and MOP are two things I can see that happened earlier - but likely because both are very old concepts
2019-12-23T21:08:05Z galdor: well ASDF seems like something all implementation include, but given the debate regarding an update for SBCL, I'm not so sure it's settled ^^
2019-12-23T21:08:17Z galdor: gray streams still require a separate system, so does mop
2019-12-23T21:09:08Z Xach: p_l: hmm, that could make it more feasible then.
2019-12-23T21:09:17Z Fare: Yeah, ASDF got bad blood with SBCL.
2019-12-23T21:09:25Z galdor: oh hey Fare
2019-12-23T21:09:35Z Fare: and with Quicklisp
2019-12-23T21:09:37Z galdor: well I'm trying really hard to push for an update
2019-12-23T21:10:33Z p_l: galdor: ASDF is result of a decade of trying to get shit running after Symbolics DEFSYSTEM and related got pushed out of standard because "standard is too big already"
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2019-12-23T21:10:44Z Fare: I readily admit I'm not great at QA. But rpgoldman and Anton V did a great job at getting ASDF tested.
2019-12-23T21:11:05Z Fare: Also, even not being great at QA, I feel that the gripes against ASDF have been inflated.
2019-12-23T21:11:23Z Fare: Of all the projects I've published, ASDF is the one where I've done lots and lots of testing.
2019-12-23T21:11:24Z Xach: p_l: in the past I have underestimated the degree to which progress happens without financial incentive - sbcl has an interesting but not really representative history in this regard
2019-12-23T21:11:38Z galdor: to be honest I believe ASDF is both too smart for its own good, but it works, and having something that works is a lot better than not having it
2019-12-23T21:11:44Z jackdaniel: maybe a way of forcing changes got in a way too?
2019-12-23T21:11:56Z p_l: galdor: we then had a bunch of incompatible attempts at DEFSYSTEM, then I think semi compatible MK:DEFSYSTEM, then ASDF that finally brought everyone to common space by virtue of supporting everyone in ways that are easy to use legally
2019-12-23T21:12:00Z Fare: jackdaniel, which changes do you think of in particular?
2019-12-23T21:12:09Z Xach: p_l: that is, I don't think it works to simply present something good, agree that it is good, and then see progress happen automatically
2019-12-23T21:12:22Z p_l: Xach: no, it doesn't :(
2019-12-23T21:12:29Z Fare: I've been keen on consulting the community and backing off changes that did get significant push back.
2019-12-23T21:12:30Z galdor: p_l: this is my point; everyone uses it, every implementation has it, it's maintained
2019-12-23T21:12:34Z Xach: I think for some it requires a customer saying "this is good, i want it, make it or i will stop paying"
2019-12-23T21:12:40Z galdor: so the whole "let's not update it because reason" is harmful
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2019-12-23T21:12:51Z Fare: also for many years, rpgoldman, not I, is the one who's been calling the shots.
2019-12-23T21:13:06Z p_l: that's why I'm suggesting going for something like "here's a library that does 80%, and it's legal to integrate into implementation no matter the license"
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2019-12-23T21:13:37Z jackdaniel: I was started to writing an answer, but 1) I'm tired, 2) that would escalate into flamewar, so I'll pass ;)
2019-12-23T21:13:54Z Xach: p_l: it's possible that reader algorithms are also finely tuned to customer needs and any disruption could be rejected
2019-12-23T21:14:04Z Fare: jackdaniel, no emergency, but if someday you're bored and write it, please publish it.
2019-12-23T21:14:20Z Xach: i can think of someone who generates weird code with a bajillion symbols/packages and they are/were important
2019-12-23T21:14:29Z Xach: but maybe their time is in the past
2019-12-23T21:14:59Z MichaelRaskin: Bajillion packages reminds me of hu.dwim.walker
2019-12-23T21:15:08Z p_l: Xach: I remember that at least one commercial implementation (I think it was ACL) allowed enough freedom that I think conduits libs actually reimplemented bits of the walker there
2019-12-23T21:15:10Z jackdaniel: that would raise unnecessary bad blood; it is enough to say that I'm *personally* not amused with many things in ASDF
2019-12-23T21:15:20Z MichaelRaskin: Which relied on a good chunck of hu.dwim namespace
2019-12-23T21:15:28Z phoe: Fare: Xach: https://xkcd.com/1172/
2019-12-23T21:15:55Z Fare: p_l, speaking of Symbolics DEFSYSTEM, it had glaring bugs in it... and MK:DEFSYSTEM and ASDF 1 inherited some of it, without the workarounds.
2019-12-23T21:16:11Z phoe: jackdaniel: one such thing is UIOP or at least UIOP/UTILITY, isn't it
2019-12-23T21:16:47Z Xach: phoe: it's possible that longtimeuser4 in that example is paying $$$$$$ and so you have to pretend to care deeply about their needs.
2019-12-23T21:16:48Z jackdaniel: fact taht uiop is a preloaded system is part of the problem, sure
2019-12-23T21:17:12Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: are you actively trying to fan a flamewar?
2019-12-23T21:17:29Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: nope - I simply think that UIOP/UTILITY and all the other utility libraries that happen and even Alexandria are the symptom of a much bigger problem with CL as a language - that is has a shi^Wvery bad standard library by contemporary standards
2019-12-23T21:17:31Z jackdaniel: he is ,)
2019-12-23T21:18:03Z MichaelRaskin: Alexandria is kind of fine
2019-12-23T21:18:06Z galdor: is there a problem with UIOP being loaded ? it's not  "contaminating" anything afaik
2019-12-23T21:18:18Z p_l: Fare: I wouldn't have expected them to be left alone
2019-12-23T21:18:19Z phoe: and, since it's as easy to create one's own standard library as it is to create a new unit testing framework, bam, we have at least twenty of each
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2019-12-23T21:18:34Z p_l: phoe: not that easy
2019-12-23T21:18:50Z MichaelRaskin: I would like to know a way to make as many trivial-* as possible unnecessary
2019-12-23T21:18:50Z galdor: and regarding standard libraries, I'm not sure that having tons of code which will never be fixed because "omg backward compatibility" helps (see erlang with ssh and http libs, go with virtually anything, etc.)
2019-12-23T21:18:51Z p_l: kinda hard to rip open COMMON-LISP and replace stuff in there without breaking shit
2019-12-23T21:18:56Z jackdaniel: phoe: actually uiop was created in order to solve the problem you talk about, am I right Fare ?
2019-12-23T21:19:07Z jackdaniel switches context to visualising ECL's IR
2019-12-23T21:19:34Z MichaelRaskin: I mean, I tried to write CDR-discoverability but maybe I need to take over the CDR process first
2019-12-23T21:19:35Z phoe: jackdaniel: I know - xkcd standards was invoked though. And, for that, I have no good solution that doesn't involve herding lispers full-time for months.
2019-12-23T21:19:56Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: I suggest that you do, I don't know if the process is moving anywhere at the moment, like, at all
2019-12-23T21:20:14Z phoe: and I hope that I'm just blind and that it actually does move.
2019-12-23T21:20:28Z Xach: p_l: there are a few escape hatches
2019-12-23T21:20:32Z Xach: p_l: not enough, probably
2019-12-23T21:20:53Z Fare: jackdaniel, some of it. ASDF 1 was totally non-portable in its treatment of pathnames (and more, but mostly pathnames). ASDF 2 did a good enough job in the common case, but there were still a ton of corner cases, that ASDF 3 and UIOP did a systematic job at handling well.
2019-12-23T21:20:53Z MichaelRaskin: Well, at some point I thought that it is stalled because nobody writes CDRs
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2019-12-23T21:21:27Z galdor: why writing CDRs if they are not implemented
2019-12-23T21:21:28Z MichaelRaskin: And talking to Marco left me with the same impression
2019-12-23T21:21:34Z galdor: it's a chicken and egg problem
2019-12-23T21:21:39Z jackdaniel: phoe: I think that you are barking the wrong tree. lack of people willing to write a good solution is not a problem ;the problem is people who do not will to put time in discovering existing software
2019-12-23T21:21:57Z MichaelRaskin: galdor: I have a CDR draft that I have already written, and which is pretty cheap to implement
2019-12-23T21:22:13Z Xach: MichaelRaskin: a CDR is a "here is a Thing" document. there are many steps after that, like, "we all agree this is a Good Thing", and "we all agree that not adding this Thing to our implementation is critically Bad"
2019-12-23T21:22:44Z MichaelRaskin: Xach: these steps are, ideally, not really _after_ that
2019-12-23T21:22:49Z phoe: jackdaniel: you are correct, the discoverability problem is serious, but there is no central repository for discovering projects that are actually worthwhile. This means that people tend to either use the first thing they find or write their own half-baked buggy implementations.
2019-12-23T21:23:22Z phoe: Quicklisp is good for downloading stuff that you already know about, and for ql:system-apropos that only lists some of the stuff as long as you are lucky with your search query.
2019-12-23T21:23:41Z galdor: MichaelRaskin: I'd be willing to read it and comment for what it's worth; but the problem is more "how to implement it for all implementations" and "how to convince these implementations to accept it"
2019-12-23T21:23:44Z Xach: "we will pay one or more engineers to make sure we faithfully implement this Thing"
2019-12-23T21:24:45Z Fare: I remember when ITA had trouble hiring reliable people to hack on SBCL. Eventually, they found Dan K inside ITA who became a big SBCL expert.
2019-12-23T21:24:49Z _death: the standardization committee argued about the design of Thing.. is writing a CDR a start point or an end point
2019-12-23T21:24:49Z phoe: galdor: I think both are actually doable. "how to implement it for all implementations" is doable since you have the source code, and the "convincing" part is optional - you can publish it on Quicklisp as a quasi-portability library that also has implementation baked in.
2019-12-23T21:25:01Z MichaelRaskin: galdor: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/mraskin/cdr-walkability/raw/master/cdr-packaging.txt
2019-12-23T21:25:37Z Fare: ITA also funded a lot of CCL development (a strategic mistake, I believe, but I liked the CCL people a lot, and they were reliable).
2019-12-23T21:25:39Z jackdaniel: Fare: I'm not arguing that asdf didn't progress (under some metrics); all I'm saying is that some changes were not necessarily called for and that they were kind of shoved into osme peple throats, what is maybe more a public relations problems than a technical one, still it is a problem which influences how technology is perceived, adopted and in consequence - in its further development
2019-12-23T21:25:42Z galdor: I'll read it and get back to you
2019-12-23T21:25:54Z phoe: And if an extension is good enough to gain traction in the Lisp world, it'll get picked up by the commercial ones too - see PLNs.
2019-12-23T21:26:07Z phoe: Fare: why a mistake?
2019-12-23T21:26:35Z MichaelRaskin: Some implementation representatives said at ELS that probably code for that would be easy to get accepted
2019-12-23T21:26:38Z phoe: I ask as a person who is hacking on CCL nowadays for fun and to get it somewhat into shape for future hackers who may come.
2019-12-23T21:26:43Z Fare: jackdaniel, agreed I'm bad at public relations. I was mostly not directly paid to work on ASDF, either, it was a side on my main job.
2019-12-23T21:27:00Z Fare: phoe: dividing our ecosystem development effort.
2019-12-23T21:27:45Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: yes, the code for that is trivial - we push some stuff into *FEATURES* on each implementation, and each impl knows what to push into it.
2019-12-23T21:27:50Z Fare: we could have funded development on SBCL and have saved efforts for more results. And we did, eventually.
2019-12-23T21:28:11Z Fare: CCL support died with the demise of QRes, anyway :-(
2019-12-23T21:28:16Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: no, just pushing to *FEATURES* is only half-useful
2019-12-23T21:28:17Z phoe: Fare: so basically, fewer people to work on SBCL and, at the same time, not enough people to work on CCL?
2019-12-23T21:28:23Z Fare: yup
2019-12-23T21:29:04Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: oooh, yes, I re-read and noticed. CDR-* packages too. That'll need support from each implementation... but is doable as well, even from the outside.
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2019-12-23T21:29:49Z MichaelRaskin: Yes, and it should be relatively cheap for implementations to maintain if initial overview is donated to them
2019-12-23T21:29:56Z phoe: Fare: got it.
2019-12-23T21:30:17Z MichaelRaskin: Typically, implementations _know_ when they restructure something
2019-12-23T21:30:20Z vms14: I have something a bit "better", but it generates a lot of boilerplate
2019-12-23T21:30:22Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/T3hWBvY6dh
2019-12-23T21:30:23Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: correct. And it's easy to donate it if all of that code can literally be implemented as a Quicklisp-loadable system.
2019-12-23T21:30:52Z galdor: MichaelRaskin: it seems useful; of course the problem is now doing the actual work
2019-12-23T21:30:56Z vms14: (js-append body (js-named-input "meh" "oh" "text") (js-named-input "oh" "meh" "text")) this line generates this boilerplate
2019-12-23T21:31:00Z vms14: https://i.ibb.co/hCBGvm4/1bce95c2785a.png
2019-12-23T21:31:01Z MichaelRaskin: And CDR process is valuable here just as a namespace assignment process
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2019-12-23T21:32:05Z no-defun-allowed: If one is working on implementing a CDR proposal in their favourite implementation, are they CDR coding?
2019-12-23T21:32:15Z MichaelRaskin: I want to get a formal CDR number before I startrallying people around implementing a standard critically dependent on CDR numbers being assigned in a timely manner
2019-12-23T21:32:55Z p_l: maybe we should have semi-automatic way to get them assigned
2019-12-23T21:33:17Z MichaelRaskin: I would also like to fix a few links on the CDR list website
2019-12-23T21:33:47Z MichaelRaskin: I guess I should ask for addition to the list of people who can do things
2019-12-23T21:33:54Z jackdaniel: another thing is that there are not that many things missing in the standard, we are "good to go" for implementing actual software instead of extending the language ;-)
2019-12-23T21:34:05Z MichaelRaskin: Erm.
2019-12-23T21:34:10Z MichaelRaskin: There is a ton, actually
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2019-12-23T21:34:26Z MichaelRaskin: Let's start with sockets
2019-12-23T21:34:42Z jmercouris: Don't get me started with sockets
2019-12-23T21:34:42Z jackdaniel: there are many things which you *could* add, but not many which you *must* add  to make the language viable
2019-12-23T21:35:19Z jackdaniel: usockets works reasonably well as a protocol, bugs aside. it is easier to push for better coverage of usocket functionality than forcing uniform api on implementers
2019-12-23T21:35:53Z vms14: jackdaniel: has usocket support for local sockets?
2019-12-23T21:36:22Z jmercouris: NO!
2019-12-23T21:36:23Z jackdaniel: it does not; yet it would be imo easier to work on usocket and add implementation-specific bits
2019-12-23T21:36:31Z jackdaniel: than drafting a new standard, then pursuing adoption
2019-12-23T21:36:32Z vms14: meh
2019-12-23T21:36:32Z jmercouris: And that, is a huge problem
2019-12-23T21:36:37Z MichaelRaskin: jackdaniel: I am not really for pushing a fully unified API, I am more in favour of having same-name aliases in a non-conflicting namespace for _exact same_ functions already present in various implementations under different names
2019-12-23T21:37:13Z MichaelRaskin: Typical Common Lisp should not do feature probing worse than well-written Javascript
2019-12-23T21:37:14Z galdor: I rarely see any good socket library in any language, most of the time they just copy the BSD API
2019-12-23T21:37:14Z p_l: MichaelRaskin: the best thing we could do was not hardcode the shitshow that is BSD Sockets into language
2019-12-23T21:37:16Z jackdaniel: isn't that a definition of a protability alyer?
2019-12-23T21:37:19Z vms14: I've played a bit with sbcl sockets, but have no idea how to "flush" the socket text without closing it
2019-12-23T21:37:37Z jackdaniel: portability*
2019-12-23T21:37:39Z galdor: I'd love a proper unified FFI layer
2019-12-23T21:37:41Z no-defun-allowed: vms14: (finish-output <socket stream>), no?
2019-12-23T21:37:43Z phoe: so basically codifying usocket and friends
2019-12-23T21:37:45Z jackdaniel: galdor: cffi
2019-12-23T21:37:51Z MichaelRaskin: jackdaniel: portability layers not integrated with implementations like bitrotting
2019-12-23T21:37:54Z galdor: CFFI is... particular
2019-12-23T21:37:58Z p_l: galdor: because BSD API, or rather, TOPS-20 API, was ported with clear purpose of providing bare minimum so that DoD could switch to Unix
2019-12-23T21:38:05Z phoe: and baking the current version of usocket API into the de-facto standard of the language
2019-12-23T21:38:06Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: XD then I was doing something wrong with the C client
2019-12-23T21:38:12Z galdor: it depends on other libraries, has a really hacky groveller
2019-12-23T21:38:41Z MichaelRaskin: Groveller is kind of optional
2019-12-23T21:38:42Z jackdaniel: MichaelRaskin: all software will bitrot if it is not maintained, implementation interfaces included
2019-12-23T21:38:49Z p_l: galdor: depends on what? libffi? It's a bit hard to implement the bits that libffi provides without it
2019-12-23T21:38:55Z vms14: but I was lucky to find a solution with the problem I had with clx so I didn't need to create such abomination
2019-12-23T21:38:58Z phoe: and then doing the same with bordeaux-threads, closer-mop, trivial-gc, cffi, and so on
2019-12-23T21:39:11Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps it won't happen again, but the thing I worry about with FFI, sockets and other portability libraries is they assume the usage of a Unix/C machine, but I guess that is basically what everyone uses now.
2019-12-23T21:39:13Z galdor: it's not really optional unless you want to hardcode a ton of values, the alternative being parsing header files at runtime (and you do not want to)
2019-12-23T21:39:19Z phoe: honestly, I think this would be good enough
2019-12-23T21:39:20Z jackdaniel: I find libraries  mentioned by phoe sufficient
2019-12-23T21:39:24Z MichaelRaskin: jackdaniel: I actually fix bugs in CL-Emb when they are reported. Let me tell you it does not itrot
2019-12-23T21:39:42Z jackdaniel: and there is no need to use a lot of hours to push for semi-standards
2019-12-23T21:39:47Z vms14: still, if you can, try to avoid ffi
2019-12-23T21:39:59Z no-defun-allowed: By "it", I mean that there won't be more operating system (standards) to have to support, which manifested in the pathname system in some ways.
2019-12-23T21:40:04Z jackdaniel: MichaelRaskin: then you are maintaining it, that does not contradict what I've said
2019-12-23T21:40:06Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: curiously enough, Go is the one presently-popular language that doesn't even support BSD Sockets
2019-12-23T21:40:12Z p_l: Somehow people accepted that
2019-12-23T21:40:16Z MichaelRaskin: galdor: If the groveller breaks tomorrow, things you have grovelled today will still work
2019-12-23T21:40:18Z galdor: well I'm not reimplementing X509 so openssl and ffi it is
2019-12-23T21:40:30Z MichaelRaskin: jackdaniel: Zero changes in let me count years
2019-12-23T21:40:43Z vms14: p_l: what? I used golang in netbsd, made a little server and it was working
2019-12-23T21:40:45Z MichaelRaskin: All the reported bugs have been inherited from many years ago
2019-12-23T21:40:57Z MichaelRaskin: (of course they are about corner cases)
2019-12-23T21:40:58Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: Using BSD Sockets as API interface ensures your code is future-unproofed
2019-12-23T21:41:02Z galdor: the Go socket API is slightly different but the idea is the same
2019-12-23T21:41:07Z galdor: but timeouts in general are broken so…
2019-12-23T21:41:08Z katco: vms14: i struggled with this a long time ago. i think i ended up using `finish-output` (http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm) to flush, but i seem to remember it not working reliably?
2019-12-23T21:41:09Z p_l: vms14: Go doesn't use BSD Sockets API
2019-12-23T21:41:12Z _death: I don't much like usocket and often find myself reaching for sb-bsd-sockets when experimenting
2019-12-23T21:41:18Z p_l: vms14: it has to use them in the runtime
2019-12-23T21:41:27Z jackdaniel: MichaelRaskin: I don't get your point. If it is maintained, then it doesn't bitrot. If it is not, then it does. I'm saying that adding semi-standards won't change that principle
2019-12-23T21:41:29Z MichaelRaskin: Software maintenance is a symptom of problems, not a desirable state of software
2019-12-23T21:41:31Z p_l: but the Go standard library doesn't use BSD API, and isn't descended from it
2019-12-23T21:41:41Z no-defun-allowed: p_l: doesn't Go recreate the whole libc, and don't they make clear it is the opposite of a LFSP?
2019-12-23T21:42:00Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: Go doesn't use unix libc, period
2019-12-23T21:42:05Z p_l: it uses Plan9 runtime
2019-12-23T21:42:06Z MichaelRaskin: jackdaniel: conformant Common Lisp  does not bitrot
2019-12-23T21:42:13Z _death: neither are CL-quality interfaces... and neither are cffi, bordeaux-threads, alexandria..
2019-12-23T21:42:16Z p_l: including Plan9 network library
2019-12-23T21:42:20Z jackdaniel: so it is enough to write CL which doesn't need maintenance and then fix usockets to match that CL and you are golden
2019-12-23T21:42:25Z jackdaniel: it never bitrots
2019-12-23T21:42:27Z vms14: the only thing I know is golang was made with lex and yacc until they rewrote the compiler with go, and not sure if it's right
2019-12-23T21:42:32Z earl-ducaine: sbcl has a function sb-kernel::valid-type-specifier-p, but there doesn't seem to be any portable way to check whether a type specifier is valid. Is that because there is something inherently problematic about defining one?
2019-12-23T21:42:37Z phoe: p_l: how do we want to design the hypothetical CL sockets then?
2019-12-23T21:42:53Z no-defun-allowed: The latter is not really relevant, but I recall C and Python sockets being much less clean than usocket, so I would expect Go to clean it up into a subset of the BSD system.
2019-12-23T21:43:00Z p_l: phoe: I'd look at XTI interface (from SysV) instead of BSD Sockets, or Plan9 API
2019-12-23T21:43:28Z jackdaniel: earl-ducaine: how about (subtypep 'xyz t) ;?
2019-12-23T21:43:52Z MichaelRaskin: jackdaniel: as long as we do not have at least a semistandard for usockets, we do not have that nice non-bitrot property
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2019-12-23T21:45:10Z jackdaniel: having a semistandard won't give you such property either. usocket afaik has stable api; why can't we treat it as such semistandard?
2019-12-23T21:45:22Z galdor: one of the hard things with sockets is correctly handling interruptions and timeouts, and this is a far more general problem in all common lisp implementations
2019-12-23T21:45:37Z jackdaniel: sure, fixing problems is another thing
2019-12-23T21:45:41Z galdor: doing anything non-blocking is a crazy can of worms
2019-12-23T21:45:52Z phoe: why should we treat is as semistandard if it's actually a standard, as shown by its widespread usage
2019-12-23T21:45:59Z galdor: it immediately relates to threads and parallelism in general
2019-12-23T21:46:30Z jackdaniel: my point is that forcing N parties to agree on something new when there is something existing what works (and is de facto standard) won't fly far
2019-12-23T21:46:48Z phoe: the question is whether the hypothetical cltl4 is going to have its own socket API that directly descends from usocket, or whether it is still going to delegate to usocket for its networking
2019-12-23T21:47:22Z p_l: I'd say it's necessary that it doesn't descent from usocket
2019-12-23T21:47:37Z phoe: p_l: I'd say it's necessary for it to exist
2019-12-23T21:47:41Z p_l: with usocket compat interface like CFFI used to have UFFI interface
2019-12-23T21:47:51Z MichaelRaskin: jackdaniel: because it had to manually add Clasp support, and _every_ trivial-* library also had, and there is nothing Clasp could do about this without exactly mimicking ECL?
2019-12-23T21:47:53Z phoe: and as much as usocket and unix sockets are a pain, we have nothing better at the moment
2019-12-23T21:48:15Z _death: when considering an API, I often ask myself: could I imagine it being part of CL?.. most of the time, the answer is no.. because it's really hard to design a CL-quality API (which is also imperfect of course)
2019-12-23T21:48:19Z p_l: phoe: a backwards compat library? yes. Usockets, being pretty direct clone of BSD sockets, ensures our network code is forever broken
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2019-12-23T21:49:14Z MichaelRaskin: p_l: note that non-broken network code must e non-runnable
2019-12-23T21:49:19Z jackdaniel: MichaelRaskin: I have an interesting datapoint whcih you may find interesting (however it is not 100% match for what we are discussing) -- just thought you may like it
2019-12-23T21:49:27Z p_l: MichaelRaskin: there are different layers of broken
2019-12-23T21:49:38Z jackdaniel: ECL had FFI implemented natively to correspond to UFFI protocol
2019-12-23T21:49:55Z phoe: p_l: we'll need to create one though
2019-12-23T21:50:18Z jackdaniel: so ECL's implementation for FFI has 1-to-1 resemblence in UFFI standard (so there was  no need or uffi to have a separate implementation for ECL)
2019-12-23T21:50:25Z p_l: MichaelRaskin: which is how, in 1998, even BSD-style sockets got getaddrinfo, badly copied from XTI
2019-12-23T21:50:26Z phoe: we can't easily replace a BSD-sockets API with a no-sockets API without some people getting annoyed at that fact
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2019-12-23T21:50:44Z p_l: phoe: somehow, Go did it, and some people didn't even notice
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2019-12-23T21:51:31Z p_l: we need an API that follows from XTI tradition for future proofing (Genera network library is, for various reasons, too much)
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2019-12-23T21:51:45Z earl-ducaine: dackdaniel: unfortunately (subtypep  '(mygarbage *** (3)) t) returns true, i.e. if it *was* a valid type, then t is a subtype.
2019-12-23T21:51:48Z MichaelRaskin: jackdaniel: yes, this just happens to go further than I dare to ask
2019-12-23T21:52:02Z earl-ducaine: But it doesn't check if the type is valid.
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2019-12-23T21:52:24Z phoe: p_l: could you point me to some description that shows how Go has it different? a random tutorial found in google at https://yalantis.com/blog/how-to-build-websockets-in-go/ shows me stuff that's similar to usocket api
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2019-12-23T21:52:38Z p_l: phoe: consider that BSD Sockets are a hack written by bunch of graduate students on short term grant over short time because military needed it ASAP, and they worked it out by porting code they got provided
2019-12-23T21:53:09Z phoe: p_l: that's nothing, let me tell you about the origins of Javascript
2019-12-23T21:53:26Z p_l: phoe: I know them. Even got corrected on amount of days by the guy himself
2019-12-23T21:53:48Z p_l: as for that tutorial? it uses wrapper functions around actual core API
2019-12-23T21:53:50Z phoe: p_l: I am well aware that you know them - and it's really sad that #<unreadable object> like this sticks around forever
2019-12-23T21:54:22Z _death: nodejs also has a non-bsd socket interface
2019-12-23T21:54:47Z phoe: p_l: yes, there's listening, connecting, binding to addresses, sending and reading data - looks like usual socket stuff to me
2019-12-23T21:54:52Z phoe: same as if I were using usocket
2019-12-23T21:55:00Z p_l: the low level functions in Go are `dial`, `announce`, `listen`, `accept` and `reject`
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2019-12-23T21:55:44Z phoe reads up
2019-12-23T21:55:51Z p_l: phoe: you're missing the part where a) BSD sockets require that you give low-level socket details for the connection b) Plan9 `dial` asks you for "hostname and high level protocol to use"
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2019-12-23T21:56:28Z p_l: so you ask for connection to a *host*, not specific IP address (of course it will parse IP address for you if you pass one), and the *service* you want to connect
2019-12-23T21:56:41Z phoe: p_l: ooh.
2019-12-23T21:56:54Z p_l: "tcp" happens to be one of those services
2019-12-23T21:57:01Z phoe: We could steal that model off to Lisp, why not.
2019-12-23T21:57:31Z phoe: CLOS will make it extensible, too.
2019-12-23T21:57:32Z p_l: in OSI APIs like XTI, you told the OS that you want "stream with finalization" and a hostname
2019-12-23T21:57:32Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: what are "announce" and "reject" ?
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2019-12-23T21:58:33Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: announce sets up a socket that can be connected to (one that you can call "listen" on), reject is the other state change in TCP than accept, i.e. CONNECTION REFUSED
2019-12-23T21:58:42Z MichaelRaskin: Of course this nice host abstraction will leak once you talk to a BSD-socket-using multi-IP server with different listeners on the same port on different IPs
2019-12-23T21:59:16Z p_l: fun fact: you don't have to listen on a socket to accept a connection to it
2019-12-23T21:59:28Z phoe: p_l: wait, how
2019-12-23T21:59:30Z p_l: MichaelRaskin: guess what, BSD socket api doesn't handle that at all, it's all extensions
2019-12-23T21:59:40Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: where do you see that ? there's no "reject" in https://golang.org/pkg/net/
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2019-12-23T22:00:21Z MichaelRaskin: p_l: well, 4.2BSD socket API started to handle bind
2019-12-23T22:00:23Z p_l: phoe: listen->accept creates a *new* socket
2019-12-23T22:00:31Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: listen assigns a local address to the socket. if you call accept before listen, the kernel will bind it to all interfaces and a random port
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2019-12-23T22:01:03Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: p_l: let me parse it for a moment
2019-12-23T22:01:04Z p_l: listen establishes that the socket is to follow the "create new socket" path in the TCP state machine
2019-12-23T22:01:20Z p_l: you can also do "both sides connect()" path
2019-12-23T22:01:34Z p_l: legal, little known, used mostly by malware
2019-12-23T22:02:01Z MichaelRaskin: I thought it was used for NAT traversal at some point?
2019-12-23T22:02:15Z MichaelRaskin: But probably less reliable than UDP punching
2019-12-23T22:02:20Z Fare:                                                                                                                                                                                      isn't something like that used by software that goes through masquerading firewalls?
2019-12-23T22:02:35Z Fare: ^ ahem, something went wrong with the space bar.
2019-12-23T22:03:04Z Fare: yeah, I believe the UDP equivalent of that is usually used.
2019-12-23T22:03:29Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: net package is a bit high level
2019-12-23T22:04:39Z _death: iolib or basic-binary-ipc, I think those are less annoying than usocket for many purposes
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2019-12-23T22:05:32Z p_l: MichaelRaskin: that said, there are ways to specify more detail, like interface to use, specific address to use, things like that
2019-12-23T22:05:49Z p_l: the point is, BSD sockets expose details of chosen implementation in way to raw way
2019-12-23T22:06:04Z p_l: till they grabbed GAI from XTI, pretty much
2019-12-23T22:06:28Z p_l: XTI idea: if you don't *need*, just tell me host and service and OS will figure connection details
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2019-12-23T22:07:26Z p_l: this means that XTI API doesn't care for the typical "connect me to HTTP service" case whether you connect over IPv4, IPv6, X.25, serial link direct to other computer, carrier pigeons
2019-12-23T22:08:01Z p_l: you tell "host", "service", worst case you specify extra details
2019-12-23T22:08:53Z p_l: even in Go's "connectTCP", you can give it a hostname, iirc
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2019-12-23T22:11:06Z p_l: because it translates into (from memory): dial("tcp!host!port")
2019-12-23T22:11:30Z p_l: it might have drifted a bit, but `dial` is still there in the core
2019-12-23T22:13:20Z p_l: note that at no point is an IPv4 or IPv6 address hamfisted into a binary struct with underdefined details
2019-12-23T22:13:56Z p_l: if put in an address, it will get parsed to the best knowledge of the underlying system
2019-12-23T22:16:44Z phoe: somewhat changing the topic: mezzano has its own patreon page, https://www.patreon.com/froggey
2019-12-23T22:16:58Z phoe: posting it here since I thought that some people might want to know about it
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2019-12-23T22:42:04Z froggey: phoe: thanks. I wasn't sure if mentioning it here was ok
2019-12-23T22:47:13Z phoe: froggey: well, in the worst case, I'll get the banhammer and not you
2019-12-23T22:49:19Z Fare: is that the makeExtensible thing in lib/fixed-points.nix ?
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2019-12-23T22:59:45Z p_l declares that as at least one part time, rarely ever on, not-feeling-part-of-community-anymore OP, he wouldn't drop the banhammer on mentioning that a CL project got a funding option on Patreon
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2019-12-23T23:02:18Z p_l: ... though I might drop down the OP hat
2019-12-23T23:03:03Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
2019-12-23T23:03:17Z p_l: (and I meant permanently)
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2019-12-24T00:03:01Z phoe: froggey: this might be a weird question
2019-12-24T00:03:07Z phoe: but does mezzano support package-local nicknames?
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2019-12-24T00:04:02Z phoe: ...oh god it actually does
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2019-12-24T00:08:38Z Xach: lol
2019-12-24T00:09:45Z phoe: well we truly portable now with PLNs, ain't we
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2019-12-24T00:33:14Z earl-ducaine: Is there a Genera patch?
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2019-12-24T00:51:17Z Fare: PLNs are better than LPNs
2019-12-24T00:52:17Z phoe: LPNs?
2019-12-24T00:52:37Z antoszka: Least Positive Numbers?
2019-12-24T00:52:45Z phoe: Logical PathNames?
2019-12-24T00:52:55Z Fare: phoe: bingo. Ouch.
2019-12-24T00:52:58Z phoe: oof
2019-12-24T00:53:06Z phoe: yes, that one hurt
2019-12-24T00:54:07Z Fare: does mezzano support asdf? I never saw a patch from them.
2019-12-24T00:55:04Z Fare: Actually, we did, one year ago.
2019-12-24T00:55:28Z phoe: Fare: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/blob/2ffe6ec1b5e6cd802efbaf0484f3e6f2290e2b65/ipl.lisp#L82
2019-12-24T00:55:31Z phoe: seems so
2019-12-24T00:55:56Z phoe: oh bother, there's logical pathname translations in that file
2019-12-24T00:55:57Z phoe hides
2019-12-24T00:56:23Z Fare: It was merged in 3.3.1.6. Wow, I didn't remember that.
2019-12-24T00:56:32Z phoe:     (when (mezzano.network.ip:address-equal
2019-12-24T00:56:32Z phoe:            (mezzano.network.ip:address-network fs-address 24)
2019-12-24T00:56:34Z phoe:            (mezzano.network.ip:make-ipv4-address "10.0.2.0")) ...)
2019-12-24T00:56:40Z phoe: this code could surely benefit from PLNs
2019-12-24T00:56:59Z phoe: I can see :mezzano.internals binding :mezzano.network.ip to something like :ip
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2019-12-24T00:57:21Z phoe: froggey: ^
2019-12-24T00:58:59Z phoe: ...now that PLNs are widespread in the Lisp world, that is - I see this is cross-compiler code and that you use PLNs elsewhere
2019-12-24T00:59:14Z mfiano: until clisp
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2019-12-24T01:12:31Z Fare: mfiano: next release of CLISP will be in 2030, to celebrate the 20 years since the previous release.
2019-12-24T01:13:17Z mfiano: Maybe they are just trying to compete with CCL
2019-12-24T01:17:57Z White_Flame: that'll be after the ghost of john mccarthy releases LISP 1.6
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2019-12-24T01:41:21Z aeth: I think it goes LISP 3.1 -> LISP 95 -> LISP 98 -> LISP Me -> LISP XP -> LISP Vista -> LISP 7 -> LISP 8 -> LISP 10
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2019-12-24T02:00:52Z ebrasca: aeth: Are you sure about it?
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2019-12-24T02:46:49Z Josh_2: In CLOS encapsulation only occurs with data right?
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2019-12-24T03:15:18Z no-defun-allowed is still waiting for LISP 2
2019-12-24T03:18:49Z jcowan: There were many Lisp 1.6s, actually, roughly one per university
2019-12-24T03:34:59Z aeth: The alternative to the version scheme I proposed involves having a LISP Server 2003 so I hope it goes with the sequence I proposed
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2019-12-24T03:40:50Z aeth: Josh_2: I'm probably a bit rusty with my OOP concepts but the way I'd describe 'encapsulation' in CLOS is (1) only access through accessors not through slot access and (2) give the slots a different name from the accessors and (3) do not export the slot names (only the accessor names)
2019-12-24T03:41:46Z aeth: Josh_2: So e.g. (%foobar :accessor foobar :initarg :foobar :initform 42) and only export foobar, and that's encapsulation
2019-12-24T03:42:45Z aeth: So slots are encapsulated, but only if you enforce access to be through accessors via naming
2019-12-24T03:43:17Z aeth: Really, I'd say that you can only really encapsulate symbols. Probably a bit controversial.
2019-12-24T03:46:54Z Josh_2: Okay thanks aeth :) I thought that was the case
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2019-12-24T03:48:03Z aeth: It's the only place where you see a private/public distinction that's not a convention, anyway. Well, unless you count closures as encapsulation.
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2019-12-24T03:51:49Z Josh_2: well someone I was talking to, was saying that CLOS isn't real OO because it doesn't have encapsulation, and then said that it is because you can use :export with defpackage
2019-12-24T03:52:22Z aeth: I mean, you can export a %foo and you can do your-package::%foo so there is some degree of convention no matter what, yes
2019-12-24T03:52:38Z aeth: but at some point, either you have escape hatches or you make unit testing pretty hard
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2019-12-24T04:03:26Z ahungry: I personally dislike private methods in OOP in more java-based languages (I would always rather there be solid unit coverage)
2019-12-24T04:03:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-24T04:04:55Z ahungry: morning
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2019-12-24T04:08:41Z aeth: Some languages permit you to do things that you should normally never do and that would instantly fail any code review if used in regular code, like accessing clearly private (% prefixed, never exported from the package, etc.) slots. I guess the advantage is you don't need to rely on the debugger to get that information.
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2019-12-24T04:18:21Z aeth: I guess it's a bit unfortunate that because of the dynamic and image based nature of the language you can't optimize away private things since anyone could add code at runtime involving foo::%secret-symbol and use with-slots on it, though.
2019-12-24T04:29:13Z beach: It is usually "just" a matter of making the system implementer work harder.  We are very lucky in that we (as opposed to separately compiled languages) have full access to the entire code base at any point in time, and that the standard requires the compiler to be present.
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2019-12-24T04:34:54Z beach: It is true that the creators of the Common Lisp standard did not make life easy for the implementer, but I think that's the right choice if it gives more convenience to the application developer.  After all, there are many more applications written (or there ought to be) than Common Lisp systems to implement.
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2019-12-24T05:15:42Z jcowan: If you want privacy, put things inside closures.  There can't be anything more private than that.
2019-12-24T05:16:53Z beach: The quest is silly though.  If you can't trust yourself or your colleagues to avoid touching data that will break the application, you won't get much done.
2019-12-24T05:17:38Z ahungry: yup
2019-12-24T05:17:44Z beach: Such protection is the domain of the operating system.
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2019-12-24T05:19:15Z beach: In C++ you can do #define private public, or you can run the application from the debugger and alter any memory location.
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2019-12-24T05:56:58Z White_Flame: and top popular langauges JS and Python just use naming convention for internals, like some lisps do with % prefixing anyway
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2019-12-24T07:29:05Z p_l: White_Flame: Python does because of rather bad reasons, it's not a good idea to use it for one's justification
2019-12-24T07:39:49Z White_Flame: yep, just saying that it's a well-accepted idiom, regardless of the particulars of the definition of OO
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2019-12-24T07:48:04Z p_l: White_Flame: well, in Python's case, it's more that they wanted to have inaccessible "private" members in class but didn't manage to implement classes in the first place...
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2019-12-24T14:13:07Z phoe: I have a CLOS design question.
2019-12-24T14:13:24Z phoe: I would like to create a function that parses a string and returns an object of some sort.
2019-12-24T14:13:54Z pjb: So far, so good.
2019-12-24T14:14:03Z phoe: I want to be able to extend this function, preferably by writing methods on it.
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2019-12-24T14:14:40Z pjb: Extend it how? Since it will always take a string as parameter… There will be only a single (main) method.
2019-12-24T14:15:01Z phoe: I have a string and a list of sub-functions that are called on this object - and either they accept it and return some object (which is returned from the original function), or they decline and return NIL, and the next sub-function is called in order.
2019-12-24T14:15:21Z pjb: So you have post-processing filter functions?
2019-12-24T14:15:42Z phoe: Not really post-processing - they are the actual matchers.
2019-12-24T14:15:42Z pjb: The parsing and original object will always be the same, you don't want to extend this?
2019-12-24T14:16:09Z phoe: I'm doing some sorta pattern matching here, and I want to call the matchers until one of them goes "hey, I accept this input!".
2019-12-24T14:16:33Z phoe: I could do this by having a list of lambdas and looping over it until one of these lambdas returns true.
2019-12-24T14:16:42Z phoe: I'm looking for a more CLOSy way of achieving this though.
2019-12-24T14:16:45Z pjb: So it's not a CLOS question, but a parser question?
2019-12-24T14:17:27Z phoe: Kinda-yes-kinda-no. I know how to achieve this behaviour in a CLOSless manner, but I'm looking for a way to represent this using GFs and methods.
2019-12-24T14:17:37Z pjb: This is exactly how parser combinators work.
2019-12-24T14:18:26Z pjb: Again, there's no dispatching involved, so no generic function.
2019-12-24T14:18:50Z phoe: Is it? I don't want to combine things; this is literally a big COND that I would like to be able to extend in some way.
2019-12-24T14:19:12Z MichaelRaskin: Even close to a big OR
2019-12-24T14:19:26Z phoe: Sure, OR will work as well.
2019-12-24T14:19:27Z pjb: Unless, you go crazy, transform the string (a vector of characters) into some kind of object graphs (eg. a list of tokens of different classes), and dispatch methods on those tokens or pairs of tokens…
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2019-12-24T14:19:37Z phoe: That's the crazy way.
2019-12-24T14:19:40Z phoe: I don't want to go there.
2019-12-24T14:20:07Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: OR is usually a valid combinator for parsers
2019-12-24T14:20:23Z MichaelRaskin: I guess you could create a huge aount of :around methods?
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2019-12-24T14:20:47Z MichaelRaskin: Or can there be only one
2019-12-24T14:20:50Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: the latter.
2019-12-24T14:20:59Z pjb: "program foo; begin writeln('hello'); end;" -> (#<program> #<identifier foo> #<semi> #<begin> #<identifier writeln> #<open> #<string 'hello'> #<close> #<semi> #<end> #<semi>)  and then (defmethod named-program ((p program) (i identifier) (s semi)) …) …
2019-12-24T14:21:42Z pjb: but the problem is that parsing is done by groupping different numbers of tokens, ie. different number of disptching objects. This is no good…
2019-12-24T14:21:45Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: ...or I could write my own method for COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS that always returns *all* the methods I define. And use the :OR method combination.
2019-12-24T14:21:55Z phoe: pjb: you're going off-topic. This is not what I want to do.
2019-12-24T14:22:07Z pjb: phoe: what you want is parser combinators!
2019-12-24T14:22:10Z pjb: Not generic functions.
2019-12-24T14:22:19Z pjb: Forget about clos, you have a parsing problem here.
2019-12-24T14:22:50Z MichaelRaskin: pjb: just watch phoe express parser combinators inside CLOS I guess
2019-12-24T14:23:11Z pjb: ok. popcorn time.
2019-12-24T14:25:08Z beach: phoe: Your methods would still need different specializers.  A standard generic function can not have two methods with the same specializers.
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2019-12-24T14:25:48Z phoe: beach: correct. One second, let me write up how I imagine it...
2019-12-24T14:25:55Z beach: phoe: But you can use a non-standard generic function, or a funcallable-standard-object.
2019-12-24T14:26:38Z beach: MichaelRaskin: "number" of things, "amount" of stuff.
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2019-12-24T14:27:29Z pfdietz: It can have two methods with the same specializers, but they have to have different qualifiers.
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2019-12-24T14:27:42Z beach: Right, that.
2019-12-24T14:28:12Z pfdietz: In practice, this just means you hang on new superclasses and specialize the methods on those.
2019-12-24T14:28:33Z beach: Subclasses, you mean?
2019-12-24T14:29:20Z pfdietz: No, superclasses.   If I want to have multiple methods on some class C, I just make it inherit from a new stub class C', and specialize on that.
2019-12-24T14:29:44Z pfdietz: And link things together with call-next-method or method combination
2019-12-24T14:30:34Z pfdietz: I commonly see this with :around methods, which nest together.
2019-12-24T14:34:00Z pjb: or define a new method combination that accept any number of chained methods.
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2019-12-24T14:42:12Z phoe: Hm. Is it possible for the programmer to write methods for COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS and have this influence the process of choosing the applicable methods for a GF?
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2019-12-24T14:42:49Z phoe: I can't see it taking an effect in SBCL.
2019-12-24T14:43:03Z pjb: phoe: if you have a class of generic functions, or (eql #.(function my-gf)), why not.
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2019-12-24T14:43:28Z phoe: pjb: I am using EQL, yes. And it seems that the method on C-A-M is *not* called when I call my GF.
2019-12-24T14:43:34Z phoe: Let me come up with a simpler case...
2019-12-24T14:44:24Z pjb: phoe: it might have been called earlier, and the result be cached.
2019-12-24T14:44:48Z pjb: Try adding a new method, so that it's called again?
2019-12-24T14:45:13Z phoe: pjb: nope, I just tried after FMAKUNBOUNDing the function altogether.
2019-12-24T14:45:17Z phoe: Let me write a reproducible test case.
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2019-12-24T14:47:37Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1614#1614
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2019-12-24T14:49:12Z pjb: phoe: it looks like it would go against 11.1.2.1.2(19).
2019-12-24T14:49:17Z phoe: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2019-12-24T14:49:17Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
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2019-12-24T14:49:41Z phoe: pjb: uhhhhh. Substitute STRING for MY-STRING or anything.
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2019-12-24T14:49:55Z phoe: That's not the part that I wanted to ask a question about.
2019-12-24T14:50:09Z pjb: Notice how it says, direct instances of standardized classes, not standardized classes. This forbids (eql …).
2019-12-24T14:50:34Z pjb: You will have to define your own class of generic functions.
2019-12-24T14:50:53Z pjb: and use (defgeneric … (:generic-function-class my-generic-function-class))
2019-12-24T14:51:07Z phoe: One second though. Direct instances of standardized classes.
2019-12-24T14:51:17Z pjb: then you can define a c-a-m dispatching on my-generic-function-class.
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2019-12-24T14:53:09Z phoe: So the issue is actually in DEFMETHOD C-A-M.
2019-12-24T14:53:40Z phoe: I cannot do (defmethod compute-applicable-methods ((generic-function (eql #'read-set)) args) ...) since #'READ-SET is a direct instance of GENERIC-FUNCTION.
2019-12-24T14:53:49Z pjb: ccl signals an error when you try it.  perhaps sbcl accepts the method silently, but the old one is always used.
2019-12-24T14:54:02Z phoe: I see. Well, it was worth a shot.
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2019-12-24T14:54:16Z pjb: anyways, your gf was read-thing, not read-set.
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2019-12-24T14:55:43Z phoe: uh, that second thing's hacky code that I didn't even evaluate because it didn't work earlier before.
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2019-12-24T14:57:21Z phoe: Well. I thought that what I wanted would be somewhat easy to do in CLOS. Seems like I wasn't correct, hmm.
2019-12-24T15:00:33Z phoe: Ooooh. Yes!
2019-12-24T15:00:41Z phoe: https://g000001.cddddr.org/3752982678
2019-12-24T15:00:48Z phoe: (define-method-combination chain ...) is what I was looking for.
2019-12-24T15:01:16Z phoe: mfiano: I remember you had this issue some time ago. Here's something that looks like a solution.
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2019-12-24T15:06:36Z phoe: pjb: 11.1.2.1.2.19 doesn't fully make sense though.
2019-12-24T15:06:52Z phoe: See NO-NEXT-METHOD. Is (defmethod no-next-method ((gf (eql #'foo)) method &rest args) ...) valid Lisp?
2019-12-24T15:08:10Z phoe: clhs no-next-method states that "The generic function no-next-method is not intended to be called by programmers. Programmers may write methods for it." but it doesn't specify anything against 11.1.2.1.2.19.
2019-12-24T15:08:37Z pjb: You can always write methods, but on your own classes.
2019-12-24T15:08:50Z pjb: what is (class-of #'foo) ?
2019-12-24T15:09:13Z phoe: It's standard-generic-function
2019-12-24T15:09:27Z pjb: Then I guess it won't work.
2019-12-24T15:09:56Z phoe: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/33e4b2567994639891de1bda94f6b3c1412c2279/tests/clos-1.impure.lisp#L106
2019-12-24T15:11:54Z pjb: Nobody said the clhs was consistent.
2019-12-24T15:13:24Z pjb: And defining your own gf class seem to be implementation dependent, at least on ccl…
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2019-12-24T15:21:20Z phoe: Oh well. Let's play with method combinations now.
2019-12-24T15:21:58Z pfdietz: Down the rabbit hole we go.
2019-12-24T15:23:39Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1615#1615 on SBCL 1.5.9.
2019-12-24T15:24:11Z phoe: I do not understand the error that I'm getting. The specializers are different, aren't they?
2019-12-24T15:25:43Z phoe: (We're not even deep in the rabbit hole, dammit!)
2019-12-24T15:28:03Z phoe: The above fails on SBCL. And works on CCL. And fails on ECL with "no next method". And fails on ABCL with ambiguous method sorting error...
2019-12-24T15:28:29Z phoe walks out of the rabbit hole, will iterate over a list of objects instead.
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2019-12-24T15:36:12Z jmercouris: is there a technical reason we can't have a method with the same name as a function? or is it simply part of the spec?
2019-12-24T15:36:26Z phoe: what do you mean, a method with the same name as a function
2019-12-24T15:36:31Z phoe: methods don't have names in standard CL
2019-12-24T15:36:44Z jmercouris: (defmethod xyz ...) (defun xyz ...)
2019-12-24T15:36:47Z jmercouris: that is illegal
2019-12-24T15:36:52Z phoe: DEFMETHOD implicitly calls DEFGENERIC
2019-12-24T15:37:01Z phoe: so it creates a generic function with that name
2019-12-24T15:37:06Z jmercouris: Yes
2019-12-24T15:37:08Z jmercouris: Yes
2019-12-24T15:37:11Z phoe: and that generic function is globally fbound
2019-12-24T15:37:19Z jmercouris: Yes
2019-12-24T15:37:28Z phoe: and the global namespace for functions only has a singular mapping from function names to function objects
2019-12-24T15:37:45Z phoe: so the symbol XYZ can only point towards one object in the global function namespace
2019-12-24T15:37:56Z jmercouris: and they occupy the same namespace I taek it
2019-12-24T15:37:58Z jmercouris: s/taek/take
2019-12-24T15:38:07Z jmercouris: I see now
2019-12-24T15:38:25Z jmercouris: I didn't think about the implicit DEFGENERIC
2019-12-24T15:39:29Z phoe: jmercouris: you define methods on an existing function
2019-12-24T15:39:46Z phoe: if a function doesn't exist, then DEFMETHOD implicitly creates it, so it can then create a method on that function
2019-12-24T15:40:06Z jmercouris: I get that all
2019-12-24T15:40:26Z jmercouris: what I did not know wwas what you said about DEFGENERIC binding a function in a common namespace
2019-12-24T15:40:32Z jmercouris: well, binding a symbol to a function
2019-12-24T15:41:01Z phoe: a function is a function
2019-12-24T15:41:06Z phoe: a generic function is a function too
2019-12-24T15:41:14Z jmercouris: Well, i try not to assume too much in this language
2019-12-24T15:41:57Z beach: jmercouris: So what did you think would happen, and how would you call your method as opposed to the function?
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2019-12-24T15:42:07Z jmercouris: I have no idea what was actually happening
2019-12-24T15:42:18Z jmercouris: I was just as surprised to find out that a symbol can point to a variable AND a function of the same name
2019-12-24T15:42:36Z jmercouris: and that a symbol does not actually necessarily have two separate slots for each as described in a book I read...
2019-12-24T15:42:39Z phoe: jmercouris: so after using Lisp for all that time you just discovered that it is actually a Lisp-2 and not a Lisp-1
2019-12-24T15:42:53Z jmercouris: well, no, I discovered that about a year ago when I first asked the question
2019-12-24T15:43:04Z phoe: oh wait, I misread that
2019-12-24T15:43:11Z phoe: got it
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2019-12-24T15:43:50Z phoe: well then, this is how DEFMETHOD works
2019-12-24T15:44:41Z jmercouris: I see, good to know, thanks!
2019-12-24T15:52:00Z phoe: sigh
2019-12-24T15:52:01Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1616#1616
2019-12-24T15:52:11Z phoe: I'm still in the rabbit hole
2019-12-24T15:53:15Z phoe: Are there the same specializers in there? Really?
2019-12-24T15:53:34Z beach: Yes, STRING.
2019-12-24T15:54:19Z phoe: Oh wait. *Specializers*!
2019-12-24T15:54:20Z beach: The other stuff is called "qualifiers" and would have to be taken into account in the method combination.
2019-12-24T15:54:21Z phoe: Not qualifiers
2019-12-24T15:54:42Z phoe: Thanks, I was confused about the two for a moment.
2019-12-24T15:56:37Z phoe: ...oh. I misparenthesized that very badly as well.
2019-12-24T15:57:24Z phoe: Yes. This helped much. Now it works.
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2019-12-24T16:57:16Z phoe: How can I get the positions of all items on a list that satisfy a predicate?
2019-12-24T16:57:32Z phoe: Other than with a COLLECT over LOOP, that is.
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2019-12-24T16:58:53Z pjb: phoe: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.array:positions
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2019-12-24T16:59:30Z phoe: pjb: nice, thanks.
2019-12-24T16:59:39Z pjb: as in (positions t '(1 2 3 4 5 6 1 1 1 2 2 2) :key (function evenp)) #| --> (1 3 5 9 10 11) |#
2019-12-24T16:59:49Z pjb: perhaps a positions-if would be nice…
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2019-12-24T17:07:27Z pjb: Well, evenp returns a generalized boolean, so the above is not conforming.
2019-12-24T17:07:58Z pjb: conforming: (positions t '(1 2 3 4 5 6 1 1 1 2 2 2) :test (lambda (a b) (eq (not a) (not b))) :key (function evenp)) #| --> (1 3 5 9 10 11) |#
2019-12-24T17:08:10Z phoe: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/410d7e68749b9c9edfdc1ea1253d80a9cac468af/src/pcl/defcombin.lisp#L253
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2019-12-24T17:08:47Z phoe: Which part of the standard states that an error should be signaled in such a case?
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2019-12-24T17:36:50Z froggey: phoe: afaik mezzano was actually the second implementation to support PLNs, way back in 2017ish
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2019-12-24T17:41:24Z phoe: froggey: very nice
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2019-12-24T18:07:42Z LdBeth: Good morning
2019-12-24T18:09:07Z Xach: hello LdBeth
2019-12-24T18:09:22Z decent-username: good evening LdBeth
2019-12-24T18:10:09Z LdBeth: What can define-method-combination be used for?
2019-12-24T18:10:36Z decent-username: don't know, it's too complicated for me. ahaha
2019-12-24T18:13:04Z Xach: LdBeth: Practical Common Lisp has some examples
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2019-12-24T18:30:08Z jcowan: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/3q1ouc/prioritized_methods_via_mop_possible/ may be helpful: it's about executing methods in decreasing order of (a priori) priority.
2019-12-24T18:32:11Z earl-ducaine: clisp apparently has a system/package, 'regexp' which is used by some utility files in in quicklisp systems, e.g. babel/scripts/release.lisp. Does anyone know if that regexp package corresponds to it's own system in quicklisp?
2019-12-24T18:32:58Z Xach: earl-ducaine: it doesn't.
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2019-12-24T18:34:03Z earl-ducaine: Xach: Ah. ok.  Thanks for the (negative) confirmation!
2019-12-24T18:34:04Z Xach: earl-ducaine: it is part of clisp only
2019-12-24T18:34:21Z Xach: earl-ducaine: what prompts the question?
2019-12-24T18:35:33Z earl-ducaine: Xach the semantics of its regular expression interface look to be very close to Emacs, which would help porting some Emacs code.
2019-12-24T18:36:56Z Xach: ah
2019-12-24T18:38:56Z Xach: earl-ducaine: I don't know for sure, but maybe they use the same C regular expression underneath.
2019-12-24T18:41:27Z earl-ducaine: Xach: with Emacs, it does appear that the kernel of their regexp handling is in C.
2019-12-24T18:41:52Z Xach: most of CLISP's built-in features are in C as well
2019-12-24T18:42:38Z earl-ducaine: Xach: Ultimately it's not that hard for me to adapt one of the standard cl regexp systems, I just wanted to make sure that it hadn't already been done.
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2019-12-24T18:53:42Z baby_yoda_squadr: hello
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2019-12-24T18:58:47Z decent-username: baby_yoda_squadr: Your name is almost as stupid as mine.
2019-12-24T18:59:10Z decent-username: Actually your name might even be worse. LOL
2019-12-24T19:00:04Z baby_yoda_squadr: lol
2019-12-24T19:00:18Z baby_yoda_squadr: good
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2019-12-24T19:00:30Z baby_yoda_squadr: that's how i roll yo
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2019-12-24T19:11:46Z galdor: following the discussion on package local nicknames, is there a good way to name systems to avoid collisions ? I'm thinking about quicklisp which has a single global namespace
2019-12-24T19:12:00Z galdor: is using something such as "com.example.foo" common ?
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2019-12-24T19:12:39Z pjb: It's a good solution to avoid collision.
2019-12-24T19:13:48Z Lycurgus: _death why is bordeaux-threads not CL-quality or did I misread that?
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2019-12-24T19:14:05Z Xach: galdor: it is very uncommon
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2019-12-24T19:14:27Z Xach: galdor: i think searching the internet for a package name before choosing a name is a way to avoid conflicts.
2019-12-24T19:14:44Z Xach: using a creative name helps. please don't call your library cl-<some generic task>!
2019-12-24T19:15:05Z Xach: if you can make a tortured pun that includes the letters "CL" that is a very good name
2019-12-24T19:15:21Z galdor: yeah cl-* is crowded
2019-12-24T19:15:39Z galdor: but I can't seem to find a downside to using a full domain
2019-12-24T19:15:58Z galdor: it's not like we have to type it (slime + helm does the job)
2019-12-24T19:16:24Z Lycurgus can't recall seeing a dot qualified pkg name
2019-12-24T19:16:31Z MichaelRaskin: hu.dwim !
2019-12-24T19:16:42Z galdor: and some informatimago stuff too
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2019-12-24T19:18:13Z Xach: com.gigamonkeys too.
2019-12-24T19:18:18Z Lycurgus: i suppose any threading pkg is best done by the implementation
2019-12-24T19:18:25Z Xach: it's not that it's never done, it's just rarely done and extremely ugly.
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2019-12-24T19:19:13Z Lycurgus: well i was thinking dots to dash/hyphen would be the thing
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2019-12-24T19:20:09Z Lycurgus: and maybe reversing
2019-12-24T19:20:10Z pjb: The only question, is what happens to tld.name when name.tld becomes unregistered or taken over by another entity than the author of the code…
2019-12-24T19:20:24Z pjb: I would expect renaming in such an occurence…
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2019-12-24T19:21:01Z Lycurgus: i consider the suffixes transient
2019-12-24T19:21:24Z Lycurgus: for mine anyway
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2019-12-24T19:26:36Z _death: Lycurgus: bordeaux-threads api is quite good, but it's incomplete
2019-12-24T19:29:01Z Lycurgus: ah
2019-12-24T19:30:18Z Lycurgus: https://eg.meansofproduction.biz/eg/index.php/Alt_root the suffix windmill
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2019-12-24T19:30:39Z Lycurgus: also https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/11/20/org_registry_sale_shambles/
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2019-12-24T19:32:07Z galdor: another solution would be to have support for namespaces in quicklisp; user/system would do the trick
2019-12-24T19:32:47Z Xach: galdor: quicklisp is a system for downloading software automatically. it isn't a requirement and i don't think naming solutions should be designed with quicklisp in mind.
2019-12-24T19:33:00Z Xach: plenty of people don't use it and they should benefit from good ideas too
2019-12-24T19:33:13Z galdor: in a way it makes sense
2019-12-24T19:33:17Z Lycurgus: how would that affect running lisp?
2019-12-24T19:33:45Z galdor: but I have the feeling that evolving the way systems are named would be really hard
2019-12-24T19:33:55Z MichaelRaskin: user/system stuff has quite a few problems
2019-12-24T19:34:07Z MichaelRaskin: Consider the fact that sharplispers exist
2019-12-24T19:34:30Z galdor: and to be honest in practice it's only a problem with quicklisp: if you manage your dependencies yourself, you really do not care because you choose what you have
2019-12-24T19:34:39Z galdor: while with quicklisp, if a name is taken, there's nothing you can do
2019-12-24T19:35:15Z galdor: it is one of the rare things I like with go, the absolute reference for packages
2019-12-24T19:36:15Z MichaelRaskin: Unversioned absolute references
2019-12-24T19:36:29Z MichaelRaskin: Approximately the exact worst way to do references
2019-12-24T19:36:33Z phoe: we have package-local nicknames though
2019-12-24T19:36:41Z MichaelRaskin: Projects do change primary locations…
2019-12-24T19:36:43Z phoe: what about conflict in the system namespace
2019-12-24T19:36:56Z phoe: ASDF might suffer from the same problem
2019-12-24T19:37:10Z MichaelRaskin: Technically, with PLN we could do a level-above, I guess
2019-12-24T19:37:11Z galdor: yes and it's a pain, but it means there is no conflict because I can reference a particular fork of a project
2019-12-24T19:37:31Z galdor: if a project has issues on quicklisp, it does not matter that a fork fixes them, you get what's on quicklisp
2019-12-24T19:37:55Z MichaelRaskin: Well, you can run your own dist, in _addition_ to Quicklisp
2019-12-24T19:38:02Z MichaelRaskin: Or just checkout to local-projects
2019-12-24T19:38:37Z Xach: local-projects (or asdf search in general) is the escape hatch from unsuitable quicklisp systems
2019-12-24T19:40:37Z galdor: local projects only work if you're alone and have a single machine; of course you can still version a repository with all local projects and share it
2019-12-24T19:40:50Z galdor: but then if you do that, why using quicklisp
2019-12-24T19:41:08Z galdor: it's still better than nothing, and it works :)
2019-12-24T19:42:46Z Lycurgus: there's no ql which updates the local pkgs as opposed to ql itself, is that right?
2019-12-24T19:43:11Z Lycurgus: *ql:<whatever>
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2019-12-24T19:43:56Z phoe: Lycurgus: it's called cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects/foo && git pull
2019-12-24T19:44:05Z Lycurgus: k
2019-12-24T19:44:11Z phoe: or rather, there are scripts that automatically call git pull on each folder in a repo
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2019-12-24T19:44:54Z Lycurgus: scripts distributed with ql?
2019-12-24T19:45:20Z Lycurgus: or made ad hoc?
2019-12-24T19:45:23Z phoe: the latter
2019-12-24T19:45:27Z Lycurgus: ah
2019-12-24T19:45:28Z phoe: stackoverflow has some
2019-12-24T19:46:23Z Lycurgus: it would be nice to have Xach's imprimatur
2019-12-24T19:47:18Z phoe: quicklisp has no idea how to update local projects though
2019-12-24T19:47:35Z Lycurgus: right, got it
2019-12-24T19:47:36Z phoe: they can be versioned in git, hg, darcs, or in D:\Lisp\Projects\old_versions\
2019-12-24T19:48:12Z phoe: quicklisp only manages and is able to update the projects that are available in dists; for local-projects, quicklisp says, "this is your folder, you manage it yourself"
2019-12-24T19:48:59Z Lycurgus: so nuke and rebuild should work igess
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2019-12-24T23:07:40Z phoe: minion: tell phoe about equality
2019-12-24T23:07:43Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``equality''.
2019-12-24T23:07:53Z phoe: minion: tell phoe about copying
2019-12-24T23:07:53Z minion: phoe: look at copying: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2019-12-24T23:08:00Z Xach: Having file links in backtraces has made filing bug reports even easier
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2019-12-24T23:10:02Z phoe: Xach: good
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2019-12-25T00:06:27Z jcowan: Are there boole-X functions that operate on actual booleans?
2019-12-25T00:09:27Z edgar-rft: you mean booleans like t and nil?
2019-12-25T00:11:37Z edgar-rft: if yes, see AND, OR, EVERY, SOME, NOTEVERY, NOTANY
2019-12-25T00:11:39Z jcowan: yes
2019-12-25T00:11:49Z phoe: AND and OR are macros
2019-12-25T00:11:54Z jcowan: it's eqv and xor that interest me right now
2019-12-25T00:12:03Z phoe: Alexandria has a XOR macro
2019-12-25T00:12:29Z phoe: jcowan: do you have booleans or generalized booleans?
2019-12-25T00:12:40Z jcowan: Booleans
2019-12-25T00:12:48Z phoe: in case of the latter, eqv is cl:eq and xor is (complement #'eq)
2019-12-25T00:12:48Z jcowan: but a shim for generalized booleans would be trivial
2019-12-25T00:13:11Z jcowan: phoe: That works for 2-arg versions, but xor and eqv are associative
2019-12-25T00:13:43Z phoe: jcowan: (reduce #'eq ...) and (reduce (complement #'eq) ...)?
2019-12-25T00:14:05Z phoe: oh wait, this won't work
2019-12-25T00:14:16Z jcowan: yes, alas
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2019-12-25T00:23:06Z phoe: jcowan: how do you define EQV and XOR for zero and one argument?
2019-12-25T00:23:17Z jcowan: undefined
2019-12-25T00:23:21Z jcowan: "it is an error"
2019-12-25T00:24:28Z jcowan: I was trying to work it out with 0s and 1s, where "and" is (apply *) and "or" is (apply +) and reduce nonzero values to 1s
2019-12-25T00:24:34Z phoe: (defun eqv (&rest booleans) (if (and booleans (cdr booleans)) (every (lambda (x) (eq x (car booleans))) (cdr booleans)) t))
2019-12-25T00:24:37Z phoe: (defun xor (&rest booleans) (let ((result nil)) (dolist (x booleans result) (when x (setf result (not result))))))
2019-12-25T00:24:40Z phoe: that's what I came up with at 1:30 AM
2019-12-25T00:24:51Z phoe: I should rather go to sleep though
2019-12-25T00:25:25Z phoe does so
2019-12-25T00:26:20Z jcowan: Yes, I may have to fall back on that.  BTW, that is variadic recursion and you don't want to do that, because even though CLHS doesn't require "booleans" to be copied, most implementations do.
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2019-12-25T00:34:39Z LdBeth: jcowan: what if you “coerce” the bool list?
2019-12-25T00:35:07Z jcowan: Works for me, but to what?
2019-12-25T00:35:25Z LdBeth: Symbol?
2019-12-25T00:37:32Z jcowan is confused
2019-12-25T00:37:41Z jcowan: What's the benefit of that, then?
2019-12-25T00:38:33Z LdBeth: You said “booleans” could be copied as a implementation defined behavior
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2019-12-25T01:05:55Z edgar-rft: jcowan: that's the best XOR I can come up with :-) -> https://pastebin.com/3iGhSGx8
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2019-12-25T01:07:46Z jcowan: I was figuring that out from the WP article.  But what's the extension to eqv?  Dyadic eqv is the complement of xor, but I don't think that's true of polyadic eqv.
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2019-12-25T01:10:03Z edgar-rft: jcowan: I have no idea what dyadic or polyadic means.
2019-12-25T01:10:18Z jcowan: sorry: with {two, many} arguments.
2019-12-25T01:15:12Z edgar-rft: jcowan: you're talking about Scheme's eqv? (what is in principle CL's EQL but can also compare strings in some Scheme implemntations).
2019-12-25T01:15:44Z jcowan: no, I mean eqv as in logeqv or boole-eqv; the equivalence operator
2019-12-25T01:17:03Z pjb: jcowan: for bits, there's already bit-and etc.
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2019-12-25T01:17:55Z jcowan: Indeed.  Alas, they accept only two arguments.
2019-12-25T01:18:00Z pjb: edgar-rft: (evenp 0) #| --> t |#
2019-12-25T01:20:25Z pjb: edgar-rft: (defun boolean-xor (&rest args) (reduce (function xor) args :initial-value t))   (list (boolean-xor) '/ (boolean-xor nil) (boolean-xor t) '/ (boolean-xor nil nil) (boolean-xor nil t) (boolean-xor t nil) (boolean-xor t t)  '/ (boolean-xor nil nil nil) (boolean-xor nil nil t) (boolean-xor nil t nil) (boolean-xor nil t t) (boolean-xor t nil nil) (boolean-xor t nil t) (boolean-xor t t nil) (boolean-xor t t t)) #| --> (t / t
2019-12-25T01:20:25Z pjb: t nil nil t / t nil nil t nil t t nil) |#
2019-12-25T01:21:23Z pjb: oh, right, xor is com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:xor …
2019-12-25T01:22:38Z pjb: how often do you need an xor with less or more than 2 arguments?
2019-12-25T01:23:10Z edgar-rft: pjb: we're talking about (boolean-xor T NIL NIL T NIL) where I have to admit that BOOLAN-XOR as a function name was a bad choice here
2019-12-25T01:23:33Z pjb: For example, there's the case of mutually exclusive parameters.  Then you don't want this oddp definition of xor, but exactly 1.
2019-12-25T01:24:28Z pjb: In graphics, there's a definition for self crossing paths, that directly involves the oddness of crossings…
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2019-12-25T01:56:42Z jcowan: That *is* useful, but it isn't the associative generalization of xor.
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2019-12-25T02:10:45Z edgar-rft: Is there any valid generalisation of XOR at all? I mean outside of logic and integer numbers.
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2019-12-25T02:17:32Z jcowan: So xor is true iff an odd number of the arguments are true, as we see above.
2019-12-25T02:18:17Z jcowan: And eqv is true/false if an odd number of the arguments are true and the number of arguments is odd/even.
2019-12-25T02:19:50Z edgar-rft: what I meant was what is the result of (XOR <toothbrush> <catpoop>)?
2019-12-25T02:20:31Z jcowan: I don't think you can do that, unless your universe of discourse contains only a toothbrush and cat poop.
2019-12-25T02:20:49Z edgar-rft: It does :-)
2019-12-25T02:20:59Z jcowan: In which case it is true if you have both toothbrush and cat poop, or neither.
2019-12-25T02:21:20Z jcowan: But I'll settle for generalizing to any number of arguments.
2019-12-25T02:21:46Z jcowan: This definition also assigns a meaning to xor with 0 or 1 arguments.
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2019-12-25T02:22:41Z jcowan: so (xor) => nil, (xor t) => t, (xor nil) => t
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2019-12-25T02:23:28Z jcowan: and (eqv) => nil, (eqv t) => nil, (eqv nil) => t
2019-12-25T02:24:15Z edgar-rft: My concern is that EQV contains some meaning of equality. Does that mean that all "true" or "false" arguments must be EQ, EQL, EQUAL, or EQUALP?
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2019-12-25T03:54:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-25T03:56:19Z vms14: guys
2019-12-25T03:56:26Z vms14: (overhead-p CLOS)
2019-12-25T03:57:41Z beach: vms14: CLOS is everywhere.  Every Common Lisp object is an instance of a class.
2019-12-25T03:58:33Z phadthai: depends on implementation and what you do with it (and there may be greater overhead in dynamic things like adding methods if the implementation performs a lot of optimizations for faster general calls after)
2019-12-25T03:58:51Z beach: Some implementations have slow implementations of generic dispatch, but it would be sad to avoid an excellent software-engineering tools such as generic functions because of that, especially now that we are developing techniques for improving dispatch.
2019-12-25T03:58:51Z vms14: then there is no really "overhead", but more the fact it's dynamic?
2019-12-25T03:59:27Z vms14: well, being dynamic implies overhead
2019-12-25T03:59:46Z beach: vms14: If all you are interested in is overhead, and not developer time/convenience, then you should use C or assembler instead.
2019-12-25T03:59:53Z phadthai: there will be some overhead over structs and functions, but is it acceptable for your needs?
2019-12-25T03:59:56Z vms14: beach: not really
2019-12-25T03:59:57Z beach: vms14: It does not!
2019-12-25T04:00:24Z vms14: but I mean abusing CLOS or making a big program that uses CLOS as lot as possible, could be a problem?
2019-12-25T04:00:34Z beach: vms14: We are very lucky in that we always have the entire code available, and that the standard says the compiler has to be present.
2019-12-25T04:01:11Z beach: vms14: So we can take advantage of that situation to eliminate overhead of the dynamic aspects of (say) generic functions.
2019-12-25T04:01:21Z phadthai: indeed, or you could use ruby if you didn't care at all (the common lisp standard evolved with compilers in mind despite lisp being very dynamic)
2019-12-25T04:01:34Z beach: vms14: I use generic functions a lot, and I have no problems.
2019-12-25T04:01:38Z vms14: I want lisp
2019-12-25T04:01:40Z vms14: no more
2019-12-25T04:02:06Z beach: vms14: More important than overhead is to choose the right data structures.
2019-12-25T04:02:07Z vms14: I'm just curious about those things, because usually once you learn this kind of things you can learn more how lisp "works"
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2019-12-25T04:03:18Z beach: vms14: Many newbies worry a lot about performance and then micro-optimize as a result.  At the same time, they are capable of using inefficient data structures that give them quadratic rather than linear algorithms.
2019-12-25T04:04:23Z vms14: beach: my code is usually very bad written, so there is no point in caring about performance, and most of my "programs" are really only little scripts or tests, so meh
2019-12-25T04:04:50Z beach: vms14: Then you can forget about "CLOS overhead".
2019-12-25T04:05:00Z vms14: but I also have read that for a lisp newbie is very easy to make slow lisp programs
2019-12-25T04:05:17Z vms14: like consing a lot, and much more stuff I'm not aware of
2019-12-25T04:05:18Z beach: vms14: Oh, wait, aren't you the one with the recent MERGE program?
2019-12-25T04:05:28Z vms14: beach: no, I guess
2019-12-25T04:05:37Z beach: Oh, sorry!
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2019-12-25T04:06:30Z beach: It is very easy for a newbie to write slow programs in any language, because they don't understand about algorithmic complexity.
2019-12-25T04:06:37Z vms14: I was the guy who didn't want to indent the lisp code when I started
2019-12-25T04:06:47Z beach: It is true that Common Lisp gives them tools to make things worse.
2019-12-25T04:07:00Z no-defun-allowed: Consing in Lisp is very, very cheap. It's not free, but it's less necessary to micro-optimise memory usage than in other languages like C or even Python.
2019-12-25T04:07:38Z beach: vms14: Right, I confused you with shangul.
2019-12-25T04:07:55Z no-defun-allowed: (Indeed I said "C or even Python", the latter is garbage collected but still uses slow malloc.)
2019-12-25T04:09:10Z beach: vms14: As no-defun-allowed is hinging, a lot of work went into making it possible to compile Common Lisp into very efficient code, and that includes generic functions and standard classes.
2019-12-25T04:09:54Z beach: vms14: Some implementations have not had enough maintainer time to fully take advantage of this possibility, but you should not let that fact influence your programming style.
2019-12-25T04:11:13Z no-defun-allowed: I think that the overuse of lists in Lisp is probably the worst thing one can do. They are not very good substitutes for classes, structures, hash tables or arrays.
2019-12-25T04:12:50Z beach: Yes, that is one example of newbies choosing the wrong data structure because of ignorance of algorithmic complexity.
2019-12-25T04:12:52Z no-defun-allowed: But I have heard that some introductory courses about things like symbolic AI in (Common) Lisp do use lists where they don't belong. I will probably take such a course in university in two years, so I can comment on it then.
2019-12-25T04:13:25Z phadthai: I tend to use them more in macros/compile-time than at runtime myself, except where they're very suitable
2019-12-25T04:13:26Z no-defun-allowed: In this (possible) case, I feel the course is as much at fault as the newbie.
2019-12-25T04:14:09Z phadthai: yes many examples, especially in introductory texts, focus on lists and cons, for a basic understanding
2019-12-25T04:14:30Z phadthai: and maybe by tradition
2019-12-25T04:15:15Z beach: no-defun-allowed: University graduates should learn to think for themselves and read up on their own.  There is a lot of teacher incompetence at universities worldwide.  Some day when I have time, I can explain to you why that is so.
2019-12-25T04:18:43Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: I'm using symbols and abusing gensym
2019-12-25T04:19:07Z vms14: to make something like a simple oop
2019-12-25T04:19:24Z no-defun-allowed: beach: If it's an symbolic AI course, I think students and course writers would have a lot to write about in little time.
2019-12-25T04:19:26Z vms14: setf'ing the property lists of those symbols
2019-12-25T04:19:58Z vms14: (defun setp (symbol property value) (setf (get symbol property) value))
2019-12-25T04:20:15Z no-defun-allowed: They would have to learn Lisp and whatever AI techniques they use.
2019-12-25T04:20:41Z no-defun-allowed: But that is all based on one internal forum post from 2014 asking for a "LISP interpreter" for the AI course.
2019-12-25T04:22:20Z no-defun-allowed: vms14: That is a very odd representation.
2019-12-25T04:22:37Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I see.
2019-12-25T04:23:12Z beach: vms14: Here is my advice: Learn about how Common Lisp operators would typically be implemented, and about the complexity of such implementations.  And given what you already do, you can safely forget about "CLOS overhead".
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2019-12-25T04:24:30Z vms14: yes, I was a bit worried about CLOS, and even trying to avoid it for simple stuff, which is mainly what I do with lisp, but I won't worry more, and use it whenever I think I'll need it
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2019-12-25T04:24:56Z no-defun-allowed: It is also possible they would also have to put up with suboptimal tools then, since the only reply was just a link to CLISP without any mention of an editor or IDE or anything like that.
2019-12-25T04:25:30Z beach: Wow!
2019-12-25T04:27:32Z beach: no-defun-allowed: If I were you, I would suggest to the teacher that you give a "guest lecture" on Emacs+SLIME+SBCL.
2019-12-25T04:27:54Z beach: You can explain that you have been using Common Lisp for a few years now.
2019-12-25T04:28:22Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. It is still in two years though.
2019-12-25T04:28:34Z beach: Of course.
2019-12-25T04:28:46Z no-defun-allowed: AI: A Modern Approach is on the book list though, which is nice.
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2019-12-25T04:30:50Z no-defun-allowed: Let's see, there's some LISP (sic) and PROLOG (double sic) on the course description.
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2019-12-25T04:35:12Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: there is a second course following this one?
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2019-12-25T04:35:49Z vms14: it seems you'll be bored at the first one, but if there is a second one, maybe you'll like it
2019-12-25T04:36:19Z vms14: or maybe you're lucky and only get bored at first time, but then they focus more on ai and those concepts
2019-12-25T04:36:27Z no-defun-allowed: vms14: There is only one AI course, but it covers many disciplines and implementations of AI (neural networks and real AI) and it is two years away.
2019-12-25T04:36:53Z vms14: I think it's a great idea that they'll teach lisp and prolog
2019-12-25T04:37:24Z vms14: it will make you understand why those boths languages are so well suited for ai, and why they have that "ai reputation"
2019-12-25T04:37:29Z no-defun-allowed: I found an old exercise and it looks...okay. The formatting is good, but they use lists too much and use LOAD instead of systems. Eh well.
2019-12-25T04:37:58Z no-defun-allowed: There's a total of 4 weeks of learning "AI languages".
2019-12-25T04:38:12Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: you have read some peter norvig's books?
2019-12-25T04:38:50Z no-defun-allowed: Just PAIP.
2019-12-25T04:39:02Z vms14: even if it results to be boring, you should try to get the most you can of that teacher/course
2019-12-25T04:39:13Z vms14: even if you have much better skills than the teacher
2019-12-25T04:40:13Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps an exaggeration, but most of nothing is not very much.
2019-12-25T04:40:37Z vms14: I usually try to get all the knowledge of the teacher I can, but if it has not much knowledge I loose a big part of what I wanted of that course, which is steal all the knowledge I can
2019-12-25T04:41:12Z vms14: but you can take much more benefit of the course even if the teacher has not much to teach
2019-12-25T04:55:06Z vms14: which are the advantages/disadvantages between lisp/scheme related with having different namespaces for functions and names or not?
2019-12-25T05:00:15Z ebrasca: vms14: I think copy is not stealing.
2019-12-25T05:01:02Z beach: vms14: The advantage of a Lisp-2 is that you can give reasonable names to your function parameters, like LIST.
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2019-12-25T05:10:05Z beach: vms14: The disadvantage is that you need operators to pass from one namespace to the other, like FUNCTION and FUNCALL.
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2019-12-25T05:11:00Z ahungry: I agree lisp-2 is nice in that there is less chance of unintended consequences (giving a function parameter that intends to receive a function the name of 'fn' in clojure is an easy mistake to make, and then overshadows the built in 'fn' definition, which can come back to bite you), but if you get a "feel" for a lisp-1 or language with single namespace first class functions (javascript) it can be hard to get used to all that verbosi
2019-12-25T05:11:00Z ahungry: again
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2019-12-25T05:14:19Z beach: ahungry: I believe your utterance was cut off after "that verbosi".
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2019-12-25T05:15:28Z ahungry: ah ,bummer, shows on my client that it went through
2019-12-25T05:15:34Z ahungry: "that verbosity again"
2019-12-25T05:15:40Z ahungry: (last part)
2019-12-25T05:15:52Z ahungry: I like Rosetta code for eyeballing difference between languages: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Compose_function
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2019-12-25T05:26:47Z vms14: ebrasca: by stealing knowledge I mean to have some one who knows about, and make him/her teach you all they know/have experienced, specially if it's a teacher (because that's for what a teacher get's paid)
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2019-12-25T05:28:21Z vms14: never meant copying, but squeeze that person's knowledge, like if you're making juice with the knowledge of that person
2019-12-25T05:29:39Z Xach: knowledge juice
2019-12-25T05:29:44Z vms14: yes :D
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2019-12-25T05:30:01Z Xach: knowl god jul ce
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2019-12-25T05:43:23Z ebrasca: vms14: You shall not steal
2019-12-25T05:43:34Z vms14: :O
2019-12-25T05:44:04Z no-defun-allowed: Well, if you copy someone's code, they still have theirs.
2019-12-25T05:44:17Z vms14: I was just saving this string into a database while you said one of the commandments: "The fear of the Lord-that is wisdom, and to shun evil is understanding"
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2019-12-25T06:40:46Z no-defun-allowed: Is there a Common Lisp or MOP function for "overwriting" the class and contents of one standard instance with those of another instance?
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2019-12-25T06:53:06Z beach: That's what CHANGE-CLASS does.
2019-12-25T06:53:41Z beach: Oh, sorry.
2019-12-25T06:53:56Z no-defun-allowed: Can I replace the slot contents with CHANGE-CLASS?
2019-12-25T06:54:04Z beach: Yes.
2019-12-25T06:54:13Z beach: Just pass the initargs.
2019-12-25T06:54:41Z beach: You would have to access the slots of the model explicitly.
2019-12-25T06:55:10Z no-defun-allowed: Right. I don't have any initargs, just one instance and another instance I wish to overwrite into.
2019-12-25T06:55:24Z beach: Er, no initargs?
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2019-12-25T06:55:50Z beach: Initargs and accessors are the stable diet of a CLOS protocol.
2019-12-25T06:56:23Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed, but I'm currently working at a sub-CLOS level.
2019-12-25T06:56:46Z beach: So how do you know where to find the information in the model and where to put it in the copy?
2019-12-25T06:57:19Z no-defun-allowed: Hmm. I'll have to think about that.
2019-12-25T06:58:11Z beach: I suppose since the copy is an instance of the same class as the model, you can use slots.
2019-12-25T06:58:30Z beach: So just change class, and then loop over the slots.
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2019-12-25T07:01:16Z beach: (loop for slot in (class-slots <class>) do (setf (slot-value-using-class <class> <copy> slot) (slot-value-using-class <class> <model> slot)))
2019-12-25T07:02:12Z no-defun-allowed: That looks good.
2019-12-25T07:04:53Z beach: Great!
2019-12-25T07:05:22Z no-defun-allowed: Figure I'll use that then. Thankyou.
2019-12-25T07:05:39Z beach: Let me know how it turns out.
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2019-12-25T07:07:00Z no-defun-allowed: I agree it's a weird place to work in, I'm trying to figure how to lazily resolve references to other objects in my distributed object store. My current plan is to overwrite any references in a slot's value when it is accessed for the first time.
2019-12-25T07:08:25Z beach: My brain is too small to understand about explicitly storing objects to secondary memory.
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2019-12-25T07:09:21Z beach: I mean, you store a pointer to some object, and then the GC moves that object in memory.  What happens to your pointer on secondary memory?
2019-12-25T07:09:28Z no-defun-allowed: Don't worry about it then. I've dug myself into a very strange place with this recently.
2019-12-25T07:12:15Z no-defun-allowed: (I do have two ideas that involve objects and non-primary memory: this networked/distributed object system and an object database. The former is certainly not going to
2019-12-25T07:13:30Z no-defun-allowed: come close to an implementation of CLOS, mostly because it deals with immutable values and marshals objects through a plain-text format.)
2019-12-25T07:13:42Z no-defun-allowed bumped the Enter key too early
2019-12-25T07:13:58Z beach: So identity is not preserved?
2019-12-25T07:14:09Z beach: That's another thing for which my brain is too small.
2019-12-25T07:14:27Z beach: I can no longer program without this property.
2019-12-25T07:14:48Z LdBeth: I’d assume it’s an object store
2019-12-25T07:15:19Z beach: LdBeth: Except I don't know what that means, as I explained.
2019-12-25T07:15:27Z no-defun-allowed: Identity is defined somewhat differently for a client of a distributed hash-table. Those don't really have "pointers", and instead they address data by a hash of that data.
2019-12-25T07:15:54Z beach: OK, so that completely changes the entire programming model.
2019-12-25T07:16:05Z beach: That's what my brain is too small to deal with.
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2019-12-25T07:17:05Z no-defun-allowed: The main problem with that is that mutability is very difficult, which is why I'm trying to come up with a way to add "after the fact" values to that data, so a client can retrieve the newest state of an object.
2019-12-25T07:17:36Z LdBeth: no-defun-allowed: just make it immutable
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2019-12-25T07:17:52Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: I could, but what's the fun in that?
2019-12-25T07:18:46Z LdBeth: Idk
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2019-12-25T07:19:39Z no-defun-allowed: It would be impossible to create references to objects "forwards in time" immutably, which severely limits the uses of such an object system.
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2019-12-25T07:21:11Z LdBeth: Then a modification could be a signal to multiple clients
2019-12-25T07:21:38Z LdBeth: Vice versa
2019-12-25T07:21:52Z no-defun-allowed: The kludge I have in mind for that is that given an immutable object, it is possible to run a deterministic program to generate a set of "side effects", which can then be attached in an unhashed section of the object, and verified by other nodes by running that program again.
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2019-12-25T07:22:31Z LdBeth: It’s essentially two interpretations to the same phenomena
2019-12-25T07:23:38Z LdBeth pass args to function/send a message/modify a variable
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2019-12-25T09:41:30Z MichaelRaskin: no-defun-allowed: once upon a time, I have wondered how to store mutable data in an immutable store, there is actually a pretty simple way that requires logarithmic number of requests (in the number of updates since last seen) to obtain the newest state, which is also provably optimal
2019-12-25T09:49:52Z no-defun-allowed: MichaelRaskin: Is it anything like a skip list?
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2019-12-25T09:52:41Z no-defun-allowed: I intend to write a program that creates all the forwards-in-time references given an object and its backwards-in-time references, which would allow for O(log n) lookup time.
2019-12-25T09:57:09Z no-defun-allowed can only find information about immutable stores in Redux; what's that and why does it appear in searches for "mutable data in immutable store"?
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2019-12-25T10:07:21Z eeeeeta: no-defun-allowed: JavaScript bollocks I think
2019-12-25T10:07:36Z eeeeeta: afaik it's a state store for UI purposes
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2019-12-25T10:33:50Z MichaelRaskin: no-defun-allowed: well, of course it is kind of like skip lists for the optimisation part
2019-12-25T10:33:54Z MichaelRaskin: Not much choice here
2019-12-25T10:34:55Z MichaelRaskin: The idea is you have write-once key-value store, then you have origin key, and use Hash(origin,update-number) as a key for updated versions
2019-12-25T10:35:19Z MichaelRaskin: Then you can binsearch without an explicit skip-list
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2019-12-25T11:05:29Z no-defun-allowed: Ooh, interesting.
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2019-12-25T11:07:21Z no-defun-allowed: I think the approach I have might still be useful because it allows for other structures like trees to form in the context of a multi-"user" system.
2019-12-25T11:09:52Z decent-username: Yo, I wanted to ask a question over in #clschool, but whenever I send something I get the following message: *** #clschool: Cannot send to channel
2019-12-25T11:10:12Z phoe: decent-username: are you registered with nickserv?
2019-12-25T11:10:16Z phoe: that could be one case
2019-12-25T11:10:19Z decent-username: yes, I'm pretty sure
2019-12-25T11:10:31Z decent-username: How do I check that?
2019-12-25T11:11:14Z decent-username: I'm using this account already for so long, that I forgot what email address I used to register.
2019-12-25T11:11:23Z phoe:  /msg nickserv status
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2019-12-25T11:12:15Z MichaelRaskin: no-defun-allowed: depending on what exactly you want, of course, you can mix the approaches. Store-an-interepreted-program approach has some overhead issues versus store-signed-precomputed-updates (which you walk to find one you are ready to trust)
2019-12-25T11:12:16Z decent-username: phoe, I've typed the wrong password when I logged in.
2019-12-25T11:12:25Z decent-username: hehe, thanks for the help.
2019-12-25T11:12:29Z phoe: decent-username: then type the correct one and it should help
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2019-12-25T11:22:18Z no-defun-allowed: MichaelRaskin: Absolutely. In the context of my distributed hash table, my next headache will arise when I need to communicate side effects between nodes to ensure they have all of those, even though the effects are created from objects they don't store.
2019-12-25T11:22:52Z no-defun-allowed: eeeeeta: I am reminded of Haskell's state monad and the method-hooks library I provided an example implementation for by that, somehow.
2019-12-25T11:23:48Z eeeeeta: no-defun-allowed: aha, I haven't managed to get round to tackling Haskell yet
2019-12-25T11:23:53Z eeeeeta probably isn't smart enough
2019-12-25T11:24:30Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think anyone is, but it has that kind of reduction pattern that I saw in the example code.
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2019-12-25T11:25:50Z no-defun-allowed: Like, that monad takes a function that goes (state, effect) -> new state, and REDUCE goes (new value, last reduction) -> reduction.
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2019-12-25T11:40:15Z phoe: Is it permitted for MAKE-INSTANCE to return a non-fresh instance? I'm asking since I looked at cl-singleton which has (eq (make-instance 'some-child) (make-instance 'some-child)) ; => T
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2019-12-25T11:41:31Z phoe: CLHS says, "The generic function make-instance creates and returns a new instance of the given class." It doesn't mention what "new" means though.
2019-12-25T11:41:39Z phoe: Neither does the glossary.
2019-12-25T11:41:53Z phoe: If I assume "new" as in "not EQ to any other instance", then we have a protocol violation.
2019-12-25T11:48:45Z MichaelRaskin: no-defun-allowed: true, my interest was primarily about maintaining traversability of self-sufficient storage units (like a DVCS server, where only the things that have already been synced here matter)
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2019-12-25T12:04:29Z froggey: phoe: CLHS says make-instance returns "a fresh instance of class class" (in the "arguments and values" subsection)
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2019-12-25T12:11:56Z phoe: froggey: ha! "fresh" is defined in the glossary.
2019-12-25T12:12:39Z phoe: thanks.
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2019-12-25T16:03:27Z phoe: I want to check if a list contains no more than four elements that are equal by FOO=. Is there any idiomatic way of doing this?
2019-12-25T16:03:51Z phoe: I'd use a hash table for that, but I have a custom equality predicate.
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2019-12-25T16:09:56Z _death: count-if?
2019-12-25T16:10:30Z phoe: _death: what kind of predicate do I serve it?
2019-12-25T16:10:50Z phoe: I have a list, and I want to ensure that no five or more elements are FOO= to each other.
2019-12-25T16:11:22Z phoe: I could do it on O(n²) by iterating over the whole list and calling COUNT-IF, but I want to know if there exists an idiomatic linear solution.
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2019-12-25T16:12:23Z ggole: There's some library for hash tables with custom equality iirc
2019-12-25T16:12:23Z _death: yeah, my thought was (loop for x on list thereis (>= (count-if (lambda (y) (foo= (car x) y)) (cdr x)) 4))
2019-12-25T16:13:05Z _death: you could of course do it more efficiently.. I'm sure you know how :)
2019-12-25T16:13:48Z phoe: _death: I *know* how, that is correct. I just don't want to reinvent the wheel by writing my own implementation if one already exists in some commonly used utility library.
2019-12-25T16:13:49Z _death: (should be 3..)
2019-12-25T16:14:08Z _death: well, fset could make it easy
2019-12-25T16:17:25Z _death: it reminds me of union-find
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2019-12-25T16:19:05Z phoe: _death: I think I'll go for your solution, except (loop for x on (remove-duplicates list :test #'foo=) ...)
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2019-12-25T16:20:23Z phoe: The list is always short enough for me to say "quadratic is fine" here.
2019-12-25T16:22:19Z MichaelRaskin: Sometimes you still can easily split the list into obviously-unequal classes, but maybe it is not worth it in your case
2019-12-25T16:24:05Z ggole: Does FOO= admit an ordering? You could sort the list and count the length of equal runs.
2019-12-25T16:25:54Z phoe: ggole: that would be FOO<, but still, it's kind of an overkill here.
2019-12-25T16:26:28Z _death: inefficiency doesn't matter (until it matters) if you have a clean abstraction
2019-12-25T16:27:00Z ggole: Well, I really meant that you could do that if FOO< could be sensibly defined.
2019-12-25T16:27:37Z ggole: It would certainly be more code than the quadratic one.
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2019-12-25T18:02:46Z pjb: phoe: (reduce (function max) (equivalence-classes '(1 2 3 1 2 1 1 2 3 4) :test (function =)) :key (function length)) #| --> 4 |#
2019-12-25T18:02:59Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:equivalence-classes
2019-12-25T18:04:19Z pjb: equivalence-classes is basically O(n*c) with n = (length list) and c = number of equivalence classes.
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2019-12-25T18:14:42Z stylewarning: pjb: why not optionally take a hash function
2019-12-25T18:15:06Z pjb: stylewarning: there's no optimization here.
2019-12-25T18:15:19Z stylewarning: Do u like slow code
2019-12-25T18:15:50Z pjb: Well, depends on the number of classes, right.  If you have a lot of classes, a hash-table might be better.
2019-12-25T18:16:05Z pjb: But the problem is that we're considering a foo=, and there's no hash-table for foo=.
2019-12-25T18:16:25Z pjb: And there's not necessarily a foo< either.
2019-12-25T18:16:27Z MichaelRaskin: There could be a conservative hash-approximation
2019-12-25T18:16:41Z MichaelRaskin: (optional)
2019-12-25T18:17:14Z stylewarning: Or just provide it optionally! Fall back to quadratic if it’s not there. (:
2019-12-25T18:17:15Z MichaelRaskin: I.e. something easy to calculate, such that different values guarantee lack of foo=
2019-12-25T18:18:01Z MichaelRaskin: With it, it is still kind of quadratic, but only per-bucket
2019-12-25T18:18:22Z stylewarning: MichaelRaskin: that’s a nice kernel of an idea for a broader concept of sieving. False positives and no false negatives.
2019-12-25T18:18:37Z stylewarning: You could imagine a tower of such functions
2019-12-25T18:18:57Z MichaelRaskin: I guess if the question is «are there four equivalent entries», there _are_ indeed a lot of classes in typical input
2019-12-25T18:19:00Z MichaelRaskin: Well, relative to n
2019-12-25T18:19:34Z MichaelRaskin: stylewarning: sure, one-sided errors are useful
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2019-12-25T19:04:33Z phoe: I need a MULTIPLE-VALUE-OR. Is it available in some sort of a library?
2019-12-25T19:06:35Z _death: slime
2019-12-25T19:07:15Z phoe: ...of all the utility libraries I am aware of, I did not expect to find it in swank
2019-12-25T19:08:45Z ggole: Hmm, does (m-v-or (values nil 1) (values t 2)) => t, 2 or t, 1?
2019-12-25T19:09:12Z phoe: ggole: t, 2
2019-12-25T19:09:17Z phoe: the OR checks the primary value
2019-12-25T19:09:33Z phoe: the MULTIPLE-VALUE- ensures that all values are returned from the form whose primary value is true
2019-12-25T19:09:51Z ggole: Right, that makes more sense for short-circuiting
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2019-12-25T19:15:30Z phoe: Okay. Now my method combination is more like I wanted it to be.
2019-12-25T19:15:40Z phoe: ...I think I am starting to grasp method combinations in general now.
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2019-12-25T19:24:20Z pfdietz50: phoe: for an arbitrary equality operation, there would be no better way than an O(n^2) algorithm for that problem.  Consider the case where there are exactly four that are = to any other element in the list, and they are equal to each other.
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2019-12-25T19:27:21Z pfdietz50: The whole problem of equality (and copying, and hashing) smells very categorical to me.
2019-12-25T19:30:07Z phoe: pfdietz50: yep, that's correct.
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2019-12-25T19:39:19Z pfdietz50: Now, if the problem is to find if there are at most four that are not equal to some other value, then that can be done in O(n) time (assuming the equality relation is transitive.)
2019-12-25T19:39:41Z phoe: pfdietz50: yes, that's actually my issue.
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2019-12-25T19:52:27Z pjb: phoe: https://termbin.com/8pak
2019-12-25T19:52:57Z phoe: pjb: I already found it in swank, thanks.
2019-12-25T19:53:46Z pjb: ok, but since it takes only the time to type it, it's faster than to ask on irc for it, to look for a library, or even locate it in swank and copy-paste it…
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2019-12-25T19:57:17Z phoe: pjb: I'm trying to avoid NIH when I'm writing my code. I first look in the libraries I'm aware of (in this case, alexandria, serapeum, uiop), then I ask if anyone knows if it's already in some library. Only in the last resort I write it myself.
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2019-12-25T21:03:13Z didi: Why does function `subseq' have a positional parameter and not keyword parameters instead?
2019-12-25T21:05:22Z aeth: Probably because keywords would be unnecessary there.
2019-12-25T21:05:34Z aeth: They'd just lengthen every call
2019-12-25T21:06:01Z pfdietz50: There is a single optional argument.  Keywords make sense if you have > 1 optional argument and either could reasonably be omitted.
2019-12-25T21:06:20Z didi: aeth: Yeah, maybe. But I'm also curious about the positional parameter, start. Why not both optional?
2019-12-25T21:06:39Z Shinmera: what would the first argument default to?
2019-12-25T21:06:42Z didi: pfdietz50: I see.
2019-12-25T21:06:46Z aeth: Subseq with no arguments would just be a copy?
2019-12-25T21:06:51Z didi: Shinmera: 0.
2019-12-25T21:06:56Z didi: aeth: I guess.
2019-12-25T21:07:14Z Shinmera: that's what copy-seq is for.
2019-12-25T21:07:20Z didi: Shinmera: Indeed.
2019-12-25T21:07:55Z Shinmera: Right, so why would you want that argument to be optional again?
2019-12-25T21:08:18Z pfdietz50: One might ask why copy-seq is there.
2019-12-25T21:08:25Z _death: subseq is a simple function.. one could imagine a subseq-on-steroids with start, step, end, count, etc.
2019-12-25T21:09:18Z aeth: copy-seq behaving like that would make more sense imo
2019-12-25T21:09:24Z pfdietz50: It's also an accessor.  Not sure if that has any implication here though.
2019-12-25T21:09:41Z _death: I think about a decade ago I wrote such a function called extract-subsequence
2019-12-25T21:16:10Z didi: One could also use the first parameter as an end if no optional parameter has been passed, but that's just crazy.
2019-12-25T21:16:44Z _death: the javascript way
2019-12-25T21:17:03Z didi: I think Python does it too.
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2019-12-25T21:26:35Z jcowan: beach: I wish you would stop spreading the notion that Lisp-1s don't allow you to use LIST as a lexical variable name.  They do, unless you are using the LIST function in the same scope.  I understand not going into hygiene issues with newbies.
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2019-12-25T21:51:20Z no-defun-allowed: jcowan: From my experience in other languages with single namespaces (like Python), it is very frowned upon to use names of built-in functions as local variables, and linters will scream at you if you do.
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2019-12-25T22:01:12Z aeth: Conventionally, Scheme tends to use l or lst, at least in the example code I've seen.
2019-12-25T22:01:22Z aeth: Even if list is possible.
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2019-12-25T22:12:02Z oni-on-ion: aha
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2019-12-25T22:15:35Z LdBeth: the difference between lisp-1 or lisp-2 is just trivial
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2019-12-25T22:16:26Z LdBeth: But someone could argue that function as first class value isn't necessary
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2019-12-25T22:17:20Z LdBeth: thus there's no point for lisp-1
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2019-12-25T22:19:17Z phoe: or #'reduce or #'mapcar or #'every
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2019-12-25T22:20:02Z phoe: or #'fdefinition or #'symbol-function
2019-12-25T22:20:13Z phoe: or even plain old #'map
2019-12-25T22:20:14Z LdBeth: phoe: these can be changed to combinators that take functions as second class entities
2019-12-25T22:20:29Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, they're not necessary, but they're nice and they are helpful to have.
2019-12-25T22:20:29Z phoe: sure thing they can, but it isn't worth it
2019-12-25T22:20:37Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: before that, I was going to ask if you were a gopher
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2019-12-25T22:22:52Z LdBeth: phoe: It actually worth that, proving function extensionality can be extremely easy if arbitrary define higher order function is limited
2019-12-25T22:23:20Z LdBeth: thus we won't need dependent type for proving program correctness
2019-12-25T22:24:11Z LdBeth: given the nature of lisp, I'd rather trade the possibility of a static type system for the merit.
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2019-12-25T22:27:23Z LdBeth: historically, functions in lisp wasn't treated as first class entity until Scheme
2019-12-25T22:29:10Z LdBeth: I'm not saying Scheme's lambda isn't good
2019-12-25T22:29:41Z kark: ldbeth: how does proving extensionality become easy? am curious
2019-12-25T22:29:54Z kark: is there a paper or something
2019-12-25T22:30:24Z LdBeth: kark: John Backus' Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style
2019-12-25T22:31:46Z kark: ouch, been meaning to read that for ages
2019-12-25T22:31:48Z kark: thx
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2019-12-25T22:34:16Z LdBeth: kark: http://www4.di.uminho.pt/~jno/ps/pdbc_part.pdf also there's a wip textbook elaborated on how to adopt such a style using Haskell as example
2019-12-25T22:34:55Z LdBeth: without define anonymous functions
2019-12-25T22:38:43Z kark: interesting stuff, double thx
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2019-12-26T00:25:46Z no-defun-allowed: How can I disable the compilation notes in SBCL temporarily?
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2019-12-26T00:29:45Z pfdietz50: (declaim (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-note))
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2019-12-26T00:29:58Z pfdietz50: (or, use a local declaration)
2019-12-26T00:30:29Z pfdietz50: To undo the global declaim, do (declaim (sb-ext:unmuffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-note))
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2019-12-26T00:33:37Z phoe: I think that I have asked this question before, but here goes nothing...
2019-12-26T00:34:13Z phoe: I have a list (1 2 3). I would like to remove exactly these elements from list (1 1 3 2 2 2) so I get (1 2 2) in result. The result order doesn't matter.
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2019-12-26T00:34:31Z pfdietz50: So, bag difference?
2019-12-26T00:34:33Z phoe: Is there a utility function for that somewhere? SET-DIFFERENCE won't get me anywhere since these aren't sets and duplicates can happen anywhere.
2019-12-26T00:34:36Z phoe: Bag difference, yes.
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2019-12-26T00:35:52Z pfdietz50: The :fset system has bags and a bag-difference function, but it's not operating on lists.
2019-12-26T00:36:21Z phoe: Again, I can write that myself if necessary - I just want to avoid writing my own code if a utility function exists somewhwere.
2019-12-26T00:39:35Z pfdietz50: FSET has bag-difference, and a convert function for going between bags and lists.
2019-12-26T00:39:58Z pfdietz50: So, try that.
2019-12-26T00:40:06Z phoe: OK. I'll see if I can easily use FSET in here, and read up a little bit on it.
2019-12-26T00:40:48Z pfdietz50: It's an interesting package, doing functional set data structures.  It does some setf expanders functionally, which is interesting.
2019-12-26T00:41:49Z pfdietz50: The idea of a functional setf expander would be something in this spirit:   (setf (car <place>) x) ==>   (setf <place> (cons x (cdr <place>)))
2019-12-26T00:42:30Z pfdietz50: (although the standard expander for cdr is not functional; that is just for illustration, and ignores other details)
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2019-12-26T00:43:56Z pfdietz50: Oh, and here's another system with bags:   phoe-toolbox.    Ah, what?  :)
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2019-12-26T00:46:46Z LdBeth: phoe: just #'remove the first element eql to the number
2019-12-26T00:47:33Z LdBeth: It has a :count arg specifies how many items are removed
2019-12-26T00:47:56Z phoe: LdBeth: A very naïve solution would be:
2019-12-26T00:47:57Z phoe: (defun bag-difference (bag-1 bag-2 &key (test 'eql)) (loop with result = (copy-list bag-1) for element in bag-2 if (member element result :test test) do (setf result (remove element result :test test :count 1)) finally (return result)))
2019-12-26T00:48:31Z phoe: Or even use DELETE instead of REMOVE for a bit of optimization in there.
2019-12-26T00:49:25Z LdBeth: Yes, although FSET is good if you prefer immutable
2019-12-26T00:49:39Z phoe: Yes, I am looking into it now.
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2019-12-26T01:04:21Z oni-on-ion: has anyone seen or heard of a networked/collaborative REPL ?
2019-12-26T01:05:05Z prumnopytis: I have a lousy example
2019-12-26T01:06:39Z prumnopytis: Google vomited Google Collab Jupyter notebooks out at some point
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2019-12-26T01:37:11Z aeth: heh, Jupyter notebooks
2019-12-26T01:37:23Z aeth: the concept is neat, but I don't like the execution
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2019-12-26T01:38:01Z aeth: e.g. by default, they have no spellchecker even though they run in the browser and half of the cells are just text cells, so they had to actively work to prevent your browser from spellchecking the Markdown cells
2019-12-26T01:38:45Z aeth: (code spellchecking is trickier because it does need to only check the comments and strings, or at least that's what Emacs does)
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2019-12-26T01:40:41Z oni_on_ion: hmm.
2019-12-26T01:48:49Z pfdietz50: I'd figured something called "Jupyter" would lack a spell checker.
2019-12-26T01:50:36Z LdBeth: aeth: markdown is a form of code thus should not be spellcheck
2019-12-26T01:51:05Z LdBeth: I guess
2019-12-26T01:52:36Z aeth: LdBeth: Well, I mean, practical Markdown is going to embed a lot of HTML if that's permitted because basic Markdown just doesn't give you enough. So that could be an issue with spellchecking. But a robust enough extended Markdown so you don't need HTML for basic things is basically just going to be words in your language mixed with symbols like *
2019-12-26T01:53:21Z oni_on_ion: pfdietz50, =) it started with python
2019-12-26T01:55:03Z LdBeth: aeth: what’s your thoughts on org-mode?
2019-12-26T01:56:37Z aeth: LdBeth: Org mode is better if your things are a list and/or a table
2019-12-26T01:56:48Z aeth: LdBeth: But otherwise it's probably not worth the incompatibility
2019-12-26T01:57:19Z aeth: What's nice about org-mode tables is that they are easy to write/edit/etc. in Emacs, but will at least be readable in other forms (like using less in the terminal)
2019-12-26T01:57:55Z keja: To undo the global declaim, do (declaim (sb-ext:unmuffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-note))
2019-12-26T01:59:47Z aeth: LdBeth: I write a ton of LaTeX and org and Markdown because they all fill different niches. There are a few others that I know but rarely use like Mediawiki Markup (basically only used on Mediawiki/Wikipedia) and BBCode (a dying type of markup)
2019-12-26T02:00:11Z Ampws: I'd like to use emacs and atom. They're more friendlier, I think.  Maybe JN introduced other languages for the so-called diversification.
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2019-12-26T02:21:28Z black_13: is it appropriate to ask how lisp is built or possible internals
2019-12-26T02:22:08Z johnjay: black_13: no you are part of the rebel alliance and a traitor. To the cells!
2019-12-26T02:23:07Z black_13: lustig
2019-12-26T02:23:10Z pfdietz50: Well, you can look at sbcl's build process.
2019-12-26T02:23:35Z black_13: if you have a cons cell
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2019-12-26T02:24:42Z johnjay: the cons cells are where invalid lambdas go
2019-12-26T02:25:10Z johnjay: aeth: if you have time could you look at this question real quick?
2019-12-26T02:25:24Z johnjay: I dont' use org-mode so I'm not sure what exactly the problem was. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/59480581/error-in-emacs-invalid-search-bound-wrong-side-of-point
2019-12-26T02:26:10Z aeth: johnjay: that looks like far more advanced usage of org mode than I use
2019-12-26T02:26:30Z johnjay: ok, that's something at least. i wasn't sure if it was bsuper basic or not
2019-12-26T02:26:51Z johnjay: somehow re-search-forward was getting invalid parameters so I guessed something with the tags was wrong
2019-12-26T02:30:27Z prumnopytis: There should be a #life-in-plain-text channel for org-script
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2019-12-26T04:00:35Z ym: Is there a way to make slot value constant?
2019-12-26T04:02:00Z ym: More correct, immutable slot. So that on setf attempt compiler would complain.
2019-12-26T04:04:03Z ym: I have a feeling of doing something wrong, though.
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2019-12-26T04:19:50Z prumnopytis: I see that there's a :read-only slot option in defstruct http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_defstr.htm
2019-12-26T04:20:05Z prumnopytis: ym: "
2019-12-26T04:21:41Z ym: Yep, I also seen it, but SBCL says there is no such a thing.
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2019-12-26T04:34:12Z prumnopytis: Interesting, what I found was that ~(setf (slot-value foo 'page) "baz")~ successfully sets my read-only value to "baz".
2019-12-26T04:34:18Z prumnopytis: In SBCL.
2019-12-26T04:35:37Z prumnopytis: And ECL. I guess I misunderstood too <_>
2019-12-26T04:43:14Z prumnopytis: **** Nope it seems to be working consistently in both sbcl and ecl. Trying to setf on a :read-only t value errors because that's not defined in both.
2019-12-26T04:43:25Z prumnopytis: Try it on a value that's not read-only.
2019-12-26T04:44:14Z prumnopytis: The symbol-vaue isn't the struct's slot's accessor.
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2019-12-26T04:45:56Z prumnopytis: Actually, ignore me
2019-12-26T04:51:21Z ym: It works for structures, but not for classes.
2019-12-26T04:51:39Z ym: I can't even define a slot with :read-only parameter.
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2019-12-26T05:04:52Z prumnopytis: ym: What about using :reader instead of :accessor in your class definition?
2019-12-26T05:05:27Z prumnopytis: After reading let over lambda I have grossly erred on the side of not using CLOS appropriately ;p
2019-12-26T05:06:36Z prumnopytis: It seems defstruct makes a lot of assumptions about what's happening and defclass does not (and is hence manual)
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2019-12-26T05:11:19Z ym: Never mind.
2019-12-26T05:14:07Z oni_on_ion: i thought that defstruct is more manual than defclass
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2019-12-26T06:39:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-12-26T09:35:31Z phoe: morniiiiiiiiiiiing
2019-12-26T09:36:20Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning phoe
2019-12-26T09:37:25Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2019-12-26T10:27:59Z phoe: Hello to you two
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2019-12-26T10:56:21Z Lycurgus: moin all; what was clasp gonna do that ordinary FFI doesn
2019-12-26T10:56:26Z Lycurgus: t?
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2019-12-26T10:57:02Z no-defun-allowed: I would guess that most implementations can't call into C++ code, whereas Clasp can?
2019-12-26T10:57:45Z Lycurgus: well they can via FFI, no?
2019-12-26T10:58:39Z Lycurgus: how is it different from cl swig oder?
2019-12-26T10:58:55Z no-defun-allowed: Not C++. That has a different calling convention and is pretty much unportable compared to C interfacing.
2019-12-26T10:59:35Z Lycurgus: i c, that's not entirely accurate but point taken
2019-12-26T10:59:55Z no-defun-allowed: Sorry, I don't know much about C++.
2019-12-26T11:00:20Z Lycurgus: the binary interface for c++ is same as c essentially
2019-12-26T11:00:47Z Lycurgus: it's c++ to c++ that has issues or directly interfacing with c++ oop
2019-12-26T11:03:09Z Lycurgus: so yeah if it was clos to c++ that would be a thing
2019-12-26T11:03:50Z Lycurgus: a super scary thing, but awesome if pulled off right
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2019-12-26T11:20:34Z galdor: quick question: (read-from-string "(+ 1 2" nil) signals a END-OF-FILE condition; I find it surprising since I provided the first optional argument EOF-ERROR-P
2019-12-26T11:20:39Z galdor: am I missing something?
2019-12-26T11:21:44Z Lycurgus closure looks like
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2019-12-26T11:22:57Z pjb: galdor: read more precisely the read or read-from-string specifications about end-of-file conditions.
2019-12-26T11:23:21Z pjb: galdor: (read-from-string "\"foo" nil) #| ERROR: Unexpected end of file on #<string-input-stream  :closed #x30200255EA4D> |#   (read-from-string "  " nil) #| --> nil ; 2 |#
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2019-12-26T11:23:51Z pjb: galdor: the key word here is "unexpected".  There are expected end-of-file and unexpected end-of-file.
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2019-12-26T11:24:43Z pjb: galdor: when you want to read the representation of an object, and there's none, it's an expected end-of-file.  But if you start parsing the representation of an object, it is expected the representation is complete.  An end-of-file here is unexpected.
2019-12-26T11:25:01Z galdor: oh the description states a difference between eof *before* an object and *in the middle of* an object
2019-12-26T11:25:08Z pjb: galdor: yes.
2019-12-26T11:25:42Z pjb: Exceptional Situations: read signals an error of type end-of-file, regardless of eof-error-p, if the file ends in the middle of an object representation.
2019-12-26T11:25:55Z galdor: so I can actually handle both
2019-12-26T11:26:23Z galdor: I'm trying to modify sbcl to have a minimal readline-style interface in the repl
2019-12-26T11:26:53Z galdor: just having C-a, C-e, C-f and C-b would help
2019-12-26T11:27:08Z galdor: a minimal history with C-p and C-n would be even better, C-r would be so pleasant
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2019-12-26T11:41:06Z flip214: when using WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING, can I close the stream in the W-O-T-S block and get the result?
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2019-12-26T11:44:30Z pjb: flip214: can't close otherwise than exiting from the scope.  But you can get the result with get-output-stream-string
2019-12-26T11:44:57Z pjb: Mind the side effect!
2019-12-26T11:45:01Z pjb: clhs get-output-stream-string
2019-12-26T11:45:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_ou.htm
2019-12-26T11:45:36Z pjb: I guess, you can always write (princ (get-output-stream-string stream) stream)…
2019-12-26T11:46:08Z flip214: pjb: thanks, that is fine for me.
2019-12-26T11:47:17Z flip214: would be good if g-o-s-s would be referenced in w-o-t-s
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2019-12-26T11:59:00Z _death: seems like you want m-s-o-s
2019-12-26T12:02:02Z _death: for g-o-s-s, "The consequences are undefined if string-output-stream was created implicitly by with-output-to-string or format."
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2019-12-26T12:27:49Z Xach: galdor: have you seen linedit?
2019-12-26T12:29:35Z Xach: galdor: https://www.xach.com/lisp/linedit-screencast.gif is a screencast i made some time ago
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2019-12-26T12:38:16Z galdor: it's really nice
2019-12-26T12:38:22Z galdor: but the point is having something built in
2019-12-26T12:38:34Z Xach: ok
2019-12-26T12:38:51Z galdor: I regularly run sbcl directly just for a quick check, or to make sure a system loads without any issue
2019-12-26T12:39:00Z galdor: and when something goes wrong, it's a pita
2019-12-26T12:39:05Z galdor: of course one can use rlwrap
2019-12-26T12:39:14Z galdor: but then one has to remember always to run rlwrap
2019-12-26T12:40:06Z Xach: my solution is to always run within emacs :)
2019-12-26T12:40:20Z Xach: not always with slime - sometimes just in a *shell* buffer.
2019-12-26T12:41:17Z Xach: but that is partly because i do most things in emacs so it's always running
2019-12-26T12:41:23Z MichaelRaskin: Mine is to have a wrapper script
2019-12-26T12:41:42Z MichaelRaskin: So by default rlwrap is there
2019-12-26T12:42:09Z galdor: thinking about this, I'm starting to wonder if there is a chance this kind of patch gets accepted into sbcl
2019-12-26T12:42:11Z Xach: galdor: i think having something built-in is good! i hope it is not insurmountably difficult.
2019-12-26T12:43:09Z galdor: I just played a bit with REPL-READ-FORM-FUN
2019-12-26T12:43:31Z galdor: the annoying part is the term stuff, which I should put in a separate system, then hope it can get included as contrib, a bit like asdf
2019-12-26T12:43:37Z galdor: this way it could also be added to ccl
2019-12-26T12:52:49Z Xach: galdor: how are you doing terminal control?
2019-12-26T12:54:32Z galdor: I'm thinking about just reading the termcap database, I should not need to many control sequences
2019-12-26T12:55:02Z galdor: an alternative would be to use only basic VT100 sequences, libnoise does that for redis and it apparently works for all modern terminals
2019-12-26T12:55:59Z xristos: you could improve cl-readline, which would also work on windows
2019-12-26T12:56:33Z xristos: rather than another adhoc solution
2019-12-26T12:56:44Z galdor: cl-readline is GPLv3 which would not work either for me or for an inclusion in SBCL or CCL
2019-12-26T12:56:57Z Xach: xristos: how does cl-readline work on windows?
2019-12-26T12:59:20Z Xach: does it need readline.dll or something?
2019-12-26T12:59:21Z xristos: i don't know about cl-readline, but readline should work (supports mingw32) so i don't see why cl-readline won't
2019-12-26T13:00:07Z Xach: that sounds complicated
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2019-12-26T13:38:35Z phoe: Xach: I assume that it works the same way other FFI-based libs work
2019-12-26T13:38:56Z phoe: readline has binaries for windows
2019-12-26T13:39:49Z Xach: that sounds complicated
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2019-12-26T14:08:29Z jackdaniel: how about linedit?
2019-12-26T14:08:39Z Xach: jackdaniel: already considered and rejected!~!
2019-12-26T14:08:48Z jackdaniel: ah, thanks
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2019-12-26T16:48:02Z phoe: #'ASDF:TEST-SYSTEM has a keyword argument named VERBOSE. Can I somehow access the value of this argument inside :PERFORM (TEST-OP ...) ?
2019-12-26T16:48:19Z phoe: I want my test framework to be either quiet or verbose, based on that value of :VERBOSE.
2019-12-26T16:55:58Z galdor: oh I'd like this one too
2019-12-26T16:56:40Z jcowan: I think it's better for a product to have a misspelling in it to make search easier.  If Jupyter were called Jupiter, teh Goog would mix it up with the planet and the god.
2019-12-26T16:57:07Z jcowan: (also much easier to trademark if you need to do that)
2019-12-26T17:08:09Z pfdietz: That's an interesting point.
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2019-12-26T17:13:41Z beach: I do that all the time.  Cleavir, Clordane, Climacs, ..
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2019-12-26T17:29:51Z pfdietz: phoe: create a subclass of TEST-OP, give it a slot that stores verbosity, and write a before method on OPERATE on that class that initializes the slot w. the verbose key arg.
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2019-12-26T17:30:34Z pfdietz: Or, perhaps put the slot on the component objects?
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2019-12-26T17:31:00Z p_l: no non-FFI libs will work for readline on windows
2019-12-26T17:31:20Z p_l: Xach: jackdaniel: xristos ^
2019-12-26T17:31:44Z p_l: and readline got blood on its hands when it comes to licensing
2019-12-26T17:32:31Z beach: That's a very strange way of expressing it.
2019-12-26T17:33:28Z p_l: beach: today, after waay more scrutiny by lawyers, many times that readline was used to force a project into switching license to GPL turned out to be bluffs without legal weight
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2019-12-26T17:34:11Z p_l: in fact, SBCL could be considered evidence against the arguments that led to GPLing of CLISP
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2019-12-26T17:35:55Z p_l: that said, no non-FFI method will work on Windows
2019-12-26T17:36:10Z p_l: because conhost.exe does *not* use terminal sequences
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2019-12-26T17:58:23Z pjb: p_l: what do you mean about sbcl licensing?
2019-12-26T17:59:05Z pjb: Please elaborate.
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2019-12-26T18:17:08Z jcowan: p_l: URL for the readline vs. CLISP story, the new one?
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2019-12-26T18:35:37Z reg32: Hi all
2019-12-26T18:35:52Z reg32: is there a simple way to trace all execution from a given function
2019-12-26T18:36:05Z reg32: that is rather then tracing a single function
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2019-12-26T18:36:27Z reg32: I would like to trace that function and all the functions that are called within and so on recursively
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2019-12-26T18:43:32Z pfdietz: SBCL has :wherein, which enables you to trace a function FOO only if the call is within a call to some other function BAR.   Not quite what you asked for.
2019-12-26T18:43:34Z pjb: (defun foo (args) (trace (progn function body)))
2019-12-26T18:43:46Z pfdietz: Or that :)
2019-12-26T18:43:58Z pjb: sorry, I mean (defun foo (args) (step (progn function body)))
2019-12-26T18:44:11Z pjb: Since what you described wasn't tracing, but stepping.
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2019-12-26T18:44:40Z reg32: stepping doesn't work well on windows
2019-12-26T18:44:49Z reg32: it's a whole function step on windows
2019-12-26T18:45:06Z reg32: and unfortunately I am trying to fix a roswell bug on Windows
2019-12-26T18:45:07Z reg32: :D
2019-12-26T18:45:20Z phoe: which bug?
2019-12-26T18:45:21Z reg32: I would easily step if I were in Linux
2019-12-26T18:45:21Z pjb: Now, of course, you need a stepping function that does exactly what you want. CL:STEP behavior is implementation dependant, not all implementation have a functional stepping function. You can instead use cl-stepper, but to trace all the code called with cl-stepper, you need to compile it with cl-stepper instead of with cl.
2019-12-26T18:45:25Z reg32: ah phoe!
2019-12-26T18:45:27Z reg32: hi!
2019-12-26T18:45:30Z pjb: reg32: try cl-stepper!
2019-12-26T18:45:31Z phoe: heyyyy
2019-12-26T18:45:32Z reg32: I am fixing YOUR BUG
2019-12-26T18:45:35Z phoe: OH
2019-12-26T18:45:40Z phoe: glad to hear that~
2019-12-26T18:45:40Z reg32: I am lucaregini
2019-12-26T18:45:48Z reg32: I am looking exactly into that
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2019-12-26T18:46:32Z reg32: also tried cl-stepper from informatimago
2019-12-26T18:46:37Z reg32: same behaviour
2019-12-26T18:46:44Z reg32: whole function stepping
2019-12-26T18:46:55Z reg32: again I am on windows
2019-12-26T18:47:11Z reg32: debugging on Windows is a nightmare
2019-12-26T18:47:41Z MichaelRaskin: Well, you could just trac eeverything then filter the traces in a text file?
2019-12-26T18:47:56Z pjb: reg32: you need to compile the function you want to step with cl-stepper instead of with cl!!!
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2019-12-26T18:48:42Z p_l: jcowan: CLISP changed license to GPL over its use of GNU Readline library, which was GPLed
2019-12-26T18:48:47Z pjb: cl-stepper is not a low level stepper, it's a source-level debugging tool.  It provides your sources with special operators and macros to instrument your code when compiling.
2019-12-26T18:48:58Z reg32: compile?
2019-12-26T18:49:07Z pjb: Yes, compile
2019-12-26T18:49:24Z pjb: And even, you need to PATCH the package form! since you need to replace CL by CL-STEPPER.
2019-12-26T18:49:31Z jcowan: p_l: Indeed.  I was asking about the "scrutiny by lawyers" leading to the opposite conclusion, which is news to me.
2019-12-26T18:49:46Z p_l: pjb: SBCL would be an example that CLISP is not "derived software", as it would be trivial to redo REPL without readline
2019-12-26T18:49:52Z reg32: you mean run like this: (cl-stepper:step(roswell.install:install argv))
2019-12-26T18:50:06Z reg32: ah
2019-12-26T18:50:09Z reg32: ok
2019-12-26T18:50:19Z reg32: is there any documentation?
2019-12-26T18:50:20Z p_l: jcowan: the crux is in the language used by GPL - it speaks *nothing* of linking or using the code, but of "derived code"
2019-12-26T18:50:42Z pjb: p_l: unfortunately, the definition of "derived work" or "derived software" is left up to any judge judging in a specific case…
2019-12-26T18:51:04Z p_l: jcowan: armchair lawyers from the heyday of strongarming GPL disregarded that and pushed narrative that "linking" is derivation
2019-12-26T18:51:13Z pjb: p_l: this might be the main drawback of GPL, to rely in the end on people not knowing much (not anything when it was created) about software.
2019-12-26T18:51:39Z pjb: reg32: yes, but first you need to have compiled roswell.install and all its dependencies with cl-stepper instead of cl.
2019-12-26T18:51:41Z p_l: pjb: decision whether the software fulfills the standard for "derived" is up for court, but it also means that "linking" is not, in fact, an offence
2019-12-26T18:51:47Z jcowan: Yes, and there's a long-standing dispute about whether a work made by linking disparate parts is actually a joint work or more of an anthology.
2019-12-26T18:52:15Z p_l: jcowan: the current standard interpretation is whether the software will work without the code involved
2019-12-26T18:52:20Z jcowan: Larry Rosen, who is an IP lawyer specializing in FLOSS, is of the opinion that it is an anthology
2019-12-26T18:52:21Z pjb: p_l: perhaps clisp authors didn't want to do the job of compiling clisp with linedit (or it didn't exist yet).
2019-12-26T18:52:35Z p_l: pjb: I also suspect they might have felt browbeaten
2019-12-26T18:52:41Z reg32: thanks pjb
2019-12-26T18:53:10Z MichaelRaskin: There was no alternative line-editing library they considered good enough
2019-12-26T18:53:12Z pjb: reg32: there's a way to use replace cl by cl-stepper without patching  the sources. cf. Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
2019-12-26T18:53:30Z p_l: pjb: it's not like brow beating someone with dubious claims is rare in US-led licensing, I'd argue that FLOSS is relatively free of it in comparison to typical "mostly illegal" EULA
2019-12-26T18:53:31Z jcowan: There was certainly no UFFI for CLISP at that point, and indeed there is still no official support.  Nor did the various C readline-alikes exist, I think
2019-12-26T18:53:40Z pjb: reg32: it's not 100% sure (the sources could be uncooperative), but in general it would work.
2019-12-26T18:53:55Z p_l: jcowan: making readline optional would fulfill what is currently considered "non-derived"
2019-12-26T18:54:16Z pjb: p_l: at least, it's optional at run-time with the -i option.
2019-12-26T18:54:27Z jcowan wishes some of the Guile libs were dual-licensed under MIT, but apparently it's a religious issue
2019-12-26T18:54:44Z p_l: jcowan: religious issue says it right, IMO :(
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2019-12-26T18:55:28Z jcowan: Pure, which is a Lisp in disguise, has two top-level programs, one GPL and linked with readline, and one permissive and not linked with it.  Of course they share most of their code, but the copyright owner can do that where we canot.
2019-12-26T18:56:02Z pjb: In any case, the question of the license seems to be less relevant today than the awareness about privacy problems and all the grief against Apple, Facebook, Google etc.
2019-12-26T18:56:15Z p_l: yes
2019-12-26T18:56:28Z jcowan is personally indifferent to privacy issues
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2019-12-26T18:57:03Z MichaelRaskin: Well, some of the Google privacy issues also are made worse because of GPL not being succesfully enforced against ODMs
2019-12-26T18:57:03Z pjb: Unfortunately, most people cannot make the logical inference and step to using linux or freebsd and to compile their software from sources, but at least a lot of developers can.  The more Apple securize its systems, the more people switch to linux…
2019-12-26T18:57:29Z jcowan: The more the universe expands, the more the price of chocolate rises....
2019-12-26T18:57:46Z p_l: funnily enough, GPL when considered with "modern" reading of "derived work" is more compatible with Lisp than CDDL, which for various reasons I like in C world
2019-12-26T18:58:29Z p_l: pjb: unfortunately FSF is also not really supportive of actually open hardware :(
2019-12-26T18:58:32Z pjb: The MacPro can only use SSD that are identified and authorized (cryptographically) by Apple.  This let them ensure a secure boot, but it goes very much against freedom (of developers and users).
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2019-12-26T18:59:08Z p_l: pjb: it also stops you from using OS of your choice, as "normal" NVMe is not supported
2019-12-26T18:59:16Z jcowan: I don't use crypto because my life is entirely open
2019-12-26T18:59:26Z p_l: you need to authenticate yourself to the security chip
2019-12-26T18:59:57Z p_l: jcowan: my life being open has nothing on my choice of using cryptography or not - it allows me to ensure certain contractual obligations, for example
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2019-12-26T19:00:43Z p_l: still, I find it *ridiculous* that MS is more privacy friendly and owner friendly
2019-12-26T19:02:32Z jcowan: It's true that I know some proprietary secrets, but I manage that by (a) not talking about them (b) forgetting about them
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2019-12-26T19:02:58Z p_l: present day list of hw in order of trustability: 1) TALOS2 & Blackbird 2) Stuff certified by MS for Win10 Enterprise in highest security mode 3) everything else
2019-12-26T19:03:27Z p_l: jcowan: ah, encryption in my case ensures that my *tools* can't talk about them to people who illegally gained them
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2019-12-26T19:06:19Z jcowan: p_l: I believe IBM mainframes are extremely trustable
2019-12-26T19:06:55Z White_Flame goes back to 6502
2019-12-26T19:06:59Z p_l: jcowan: I ranked "trust" in "can I 'own' every aspect of the device". You can't do that with most modern mainframes
2019-12-26T19:07:17Z jcowan: It's all published, I think
2019-12-26T19:07:20Z p_l: however, IBM is most floss-friendly on hw side of POWER8/POWER9
2019-12-26T19:07:23Z p_l: jcowan: not for z
2019-12-26T19:07:29Z p_l: POWER8/POWER9 is
2019-12-26T19:07:41Z p_l: that's why TALOS2/Blackbird lead my list
2019-12-26T19:08:03Z p_l: they combine the open source parts from IBM with open source design for the remaining pieces to implement
2019-12-26T19:08:47Z p_l: IBM does not provide you a complete system to use on your own, though the material from OpenPower is very close
2019-12-26T19:08:59Z p_l: you still need to design a host motherboard and implement it
2019-12-26T19:09:02Z reg32: Hi
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2019-12-26T19:13:13Z p_l: jcowan: TALOS2 and Blackbird provide sources for the FPGAs that govern crucial areas before any CPU starts processing instructions, and they put in work to get the NIC firmware cracked open (there's no firmware-less nor open source firmware NIC that provided required level of features)
2019-12-26T19:13:25Z jcowan nods
2019-12-26T19:13:31Z jcowan: I got distracted reading about Zowe
2019-12-26T19:14:12Z reg32: Pascal
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2019-12-26T19:14:17Z reg32: I am still getting the same results
2019-12-26T19:14:28Z reg32: this is what i did in the following order
2019-12-26T19:14:45Z reg32: quicklisp loaded informatimago stepper
2019-12-26T19:15:18Z reg32: asdf-load-system :roswell
2019-12-26T19:16:03Z phoe: reg32: you need to shadow the symbol CL:STEP with the one provided by cl-stepper, and only then compile roswell.
2019-12-26T19:16:05Z reg32: cl-stepper:stepped into the function I want to troubleshoot
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2019-12-26T19:46:09Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if it was posted here, but there is abcl appreciation campaign going on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujBbeg2XClQ
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2019-12-26T20:34:07Z reg32: it didn't work
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2019-12-26T20:38:06Z pjb: did you compile the function you wanted to troubleshoot and all the functions it calls with the cl-stepper package?
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2019-12-26T20:39:53Z reg32: yes
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2019-12-26T20:40:41Z reg32: I have shadowed all the relevant packages: (:shadowing-import-from #:cl-stepper #:step)
2019-12-26T20:41:12Z pjb: That's useless.  See: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/comp.lang.lisp$20cl-stepper/comp.lang.lisp/50k86A63WJA/hMu30bPh6OsJ
2019-12-26T20:41:22Z reg32: I have just posted the link of the ABCL appreciation campain on hacker news
2019-12-26T20:41:36Z pjb: The important part is: (defpackage … (:use :cl-stepper) …)
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2019-12-26T20:43:17Z pjb: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.lang.lisp/50k86A63WJA/hMu30bPh6OsJ
2019-12-26T20:43:20Z reg32: the more people upvote the post the wider the audience it will reach
2019-12-26T20:43:37Z Xach: It's not actually ready to go.
2019-12-26T20:43:41Z Xach: You can't donate right now.
2019-12-26T20:43:53Z Xach: I don't think it's good to promote it before it is ready.
2019-12-26T20:44:10Z reg32: ah
2019-12-26T20:44:12Z reg32: too early
2019-12-26T20:44:48Z reg32: PJB: so the important part is to :use :cl-stepper in every package I want to debug
2019-12-26T20:44:56Z reg32: is there a way to do it globally?
2019-12-26T20:44:58Z jackdaniel: hm, my bad then. that said the video was published, quite unfortunate
2019-12-26T20:45:30Z pjb: reg32: yes, by way of a hack such as implemented in ibcl.
2019-12-26T20:45:35Z pjb: Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
2019-12-26T20:46:30Z reg32: pjb do you use CL professionally?
2019-12-26T20:46:43Z pjb: I've been paid for some CL code I wrote, indeed.
2019-12-26T20:47:02Z reg32: xach the link is active
2019-12-26T20:47:06Z reg32: I can pay
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2019-12-26T20:47:49Z reg32: It's 20$ at the moment
2019-12-26T20:47:55Z reg32: it will get 5 more
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2019-12-26T21:03:13Z didi: So (nthcdr 42 ()) => () but (subseq () 42) signals an error. I wonder if `subseq' should just return an empty sequence.
2019-12-26T21:04:37Z Xach: reg32: it says "currently in testing mode" for me.
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2019-12-26T21:07:08Z Xach: reg32: were you able to pay?
2019-12-26T21:08:17Z prumnopytis: didi: Isn't that pointing out that (cdr nil) => nil ?
2019-12-26T21:09:39Z didi: prumnopytis: `cdr' is forgiving like that.
2019-12-26T21:11:33Z prumnopytis: I haven't read the spec, but I can imagine that "get the cdr of" and "get the subsequence starting at" should be defined differently
2019-12-26T21:12:04Z reg32: I am getting name conflicts conditions
2019-12-26T21:12:13Z anewuser quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2019-12-26T21:12:18Z reg32: do I have to explicity resolve all restarts?
2019-12-26T21:13:35Z prumnopytis: didi: In fact I think mathematically it's going to turn out that if subsequences can start successfully after the end of a list, there is no end to the subseq(uence)
2019-12-26T21:14:16Z reg32: Xach Yes I payed 5$ but had to use paypal
2019-12-26T21:14:41Z reg32: the other method didn't work but I have to admit that I have a pretty strong credit card security
2019-12-26T21:15:30Z reg32: the strange thing is that the counter didn't increase
2019-12-26T21:18:29Z prumnopytis: And in fact (subseq '(1) 1) => NIL
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2019-12-26T21:21:39Z reg32: now it works!
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2019-12-26T21:21:58Z reg32: but I had to resolve all symbol conflicts
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2019-12-26T21:36:08Z didi: prumnopytis: For example, in Python [1,2,3][42:] => [].
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2019-12-26T21:40:07Z prumnopytis: I find it bewildering how so many people feel about Python now how I felt about it as an undergraduate who moved away from the taught Matlab
2019-12-26T21:41:02Z didi: How do people feel about Python?
2019-12-26T21:41:32Z jmercouris: didi: are you organizing ELS?
2019-12-26T21:41:40Z prumnopytis: Well, it seems that you think Python's slicing behaviour is intuitive, which I don't particularly
2019-12-26T21:41:42Z didi: jmercouris: I'm not.
2019-12-26T21:42:20Z didi: prumnopytis: I find it useful.
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2019-12-26T21:42:38Z jmercouris: prumnopytis: Python's slicing behavior is intuitive IF you understand the rationale, there's a good stack overflow answer about it here: https://stackoverflow.com/a/509297/1699398
2019-12-26T21:43:06Z nirved: didi: then what would (setf (subseq () 42) '(1 2 3)) do?
2019-12-26T21:43:31Z didi: nirved: Ah, good question.
2019-12-26T21:43:50Z didi: I dunno.
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2019-12-26T21:47:29Z prumnopytis: Contextually, I'm a Kiwi, and the current head-of-R is (being portrayed by me as being) like, "wow, what if R was more like Python you guys". And I just had a PhD student exort the manifest brilliance of Jupyter notebooks to me the other day. For me, I have been making the effort to move to lisp from C.
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2019-12-26T21:48:43Z prumnopytis: Oops, from C to lisp.
2019-12-26T21:48:50Z jmercouris: "exort the manifest brilliance"? What does that even mean?
2019-12-26T21:49:02Z prumnopytis: That's what I was thinking while it was happening
2019-12-26T21:49:21Z jmercouris: prumnopytis: Is english your second language?
2019-12-26T21:49:23Z aeth: prumnopytis: I wonder if AI research selects for people who like Jupyter notebooks because I'm really not sure why they all love it.
2019-12-26T21:49:36Z prumnopytis: Oh come now, I missed one h
2019-12-26T21:49:48Z p_l: aeth: "AI" research selects for people who can't stand being told they do statistics
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2019-12-26T21:50:05Z didi: p_l: The nerve...
2019-12-26T21:50:08Z jmercouris: prumnopytis: I was being serious, I just have no idea what you are saying
2019-12-26T21:50:09Z aeth: p_l: they don't do statistics, the AI does
2019-12-26T21:50:44Z p_l: aeth: they string together bits of stuff in ways that would make physicists writing Fortran give sermons about clean code
2019-12-26T21:50:52Z prumnopytis: Argue in favour of the great utility of jupyter notebooks, which are a cell based code snippet runner
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2019-12-26T21:51:08Z jmercouris: Like that, what does that sentence even mean?
2019-12-26T21:51:15Z jmercouris: Can you start a sentence like that?
2019-12-26T21:51:58Z aeth: p_l: I mean, yes, Jupyter notebook is kinda like if I turned in my SLIME REPL log modified to print graphs as an actual program.
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2019-12-26T21:52:00Z nirved: jupyter notebooks look like a Open Genera
2019-12-26T21:52:10Z p_l: nirved: nope
2019-12-26T21:52:14Z p_l: not close at all
2019-12-26T21:52:20Z p_l: they are a bit worse org-mode
2019-12-26T21:52:40Z p_l: that happened to evolve out of an extended Python REPL
2019-12-26T21:52:44Z prumnopytis: That's what springs to my mind p_1, and I don't particularly like org-mode for mixing programs together
2019-12-26T21:52:46Z nirved: well, looks like inspired by genera
2019-12-26T21:52:58Z didi: OK, I am not the only one that doesn't see the appeal of Jupyter notebooks. Cool.
2019-12-26T21:53:00Z p_l: nirved: the people involved never encountered Genera
2019-12-26T21:53:03Z aeth: Does running code in org-mode get you in an indeterminate state a lot of the time, too? I've never actually run code snippits in org-mode before, I just have them there.
2019-12-26T21:53:21Z p_l: aeth: Org-Mode has clear ways to get into determinate state even if you can break it
2019-12-26T21:53:23Z aeth: <sTAB
2019-12-26T21:53:33Z aeth: I do that so often in org-mode and I've never executed that code
2019-12-26T21:53:37Z jmercouris: So the thing that differentiates literate and org-mode is the way code is actually run
2019-12-26T21:53:39Z aeth: In fact, it rarely is enough of a snippit to actually execute
2019-12-26T21:53:45Z prumnopytis: Hm? I found it works alright, it's just adding another technology in exchange for very little
2019-12-26T21:53:50Z p_l: most importantly, it's much harder to have circular effects by chance
2019-12-26T21:54:02Z jmercouris: basically each org mode snippet has to more or less stand on its own
2019-12-26T21:54:14Z jmercouris: whereas in jupyter, its like a long program with giant comments in between, and state is often shared between snippets
2019-12-26T21:54:26Z p_l: you can use sessions, but they are explicit
2019-12-26T21:54:27Z jmercouris: I'm not saying it is impossible to do in org, just laborious as compared to jupter
2019-12-26T21:54:31Z p_l: yeah
2019-12-26T21:54:34Z jmercouris: jupyter*
2019-12-26T21:54:36Z aeth: jmercouris: ah, so org doesn't share state implicitly
2019-12-26T21:54:40Z jmercouris: not usually, no
2019-12-26T21:54:47Z prumnopytis: I kind of think that's an advantage
2019-12-26T21:55:19Z prumnopytis: But I am arguing against using org-mode, not for it sorry ;p
2019-12-26T21:55:48Z aeth: I don't think Jupyter is necessarily a bad thing, I just think that to do it right it should basically just be a presentation layer. Graphs and charts and stuff. Anything non-trivial clearly (imo) doesn't belong in it.
2019-12-26T21:56:05Z aeth: Honestly, I kinda want to plug it into CL and use it for some graphs. But only graphs.
2019-12-26T21:56:08Z jmercouris: think of Jupyter as a story telling tool
2019-12-26T21:56:24Z jmercouris: You could definitely pipe things from CL into gnuplot and have them show up in org mode
2019-12-26T21:57:03Z didi: I do it with graphviz. It's nice.
2019-12-26T21:57:16Z prumnopytis: aeth: in my experience, I have vastly preferred org-mode and still use it for showing-other-people-things, and I have (had to) use both variously
2019-12-26T21:57:50Z aeth: didi: Thanks for reminding me that I need to write my own .dot generator in CL.
2019-12-26T21:58:09Z prumnopytis: There's already a kind of fine one or couple, I think.
2019-12-26T21:58:13Z didi: aeth: Everyone should. ;-)
2019-12-26T21:58:29Z aeth: prumnopytis: org-mode is good for my own things, but it's not good for things that I share with other people. You can't really beat a web browser (or a LaTeX-generated PDF if non-interactive) for that.
2019-12-26T21:59:00Z jmercouris: aeth: someone made jupyter like notebooks for next
2019-12-26T21:59:43Z jmercouris: https://github.com/tviti/next-notebook
2019-12-26T22:00:11Z prumnopytis: Jumping around places, trivially executing stuff live and having pictures pop up, dumb elisp automating of step by step processes - I found this worked well for me for presentations. I wouldn't use it for programming, in the way someone might try and use jupyter notebooks for Apache Spark.
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2019-12-26T22:03:43Z didi: nirved: An answer for (setf (subseq () 42) '(1 2 3)): nothing changes at (), because (subseq () 42) => () is shorter than '(1 2 3).
2019-12-26T22:04:16Z didi: As in `substitute'.
2019-12-26T22:04:59Z didi: Eer, not `substitute', but another function that I'm not remembering right now.
2019-12-26T22:05:22Z didi: `replace'.
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2019-12-26T22:08:58Z p_l: there's cl support for jupyter, made by people behind Clasp
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2019-12-26T22:09:53Z jmercouris: so, dr meister?
2019-12-26T22:09:58Z ealfonso: is there a way to list only "orphaned" commits not contained in any branch? is there a way to run git gc in --dry-run mode?
2019-12-26T22:10:08Z ealfonso: oops
2019-12-26T22:10:12Z ealfonso: wrong channel, sorry
2019-12-26T22:10:28Z prumnopytis: git prune?
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2019-12-26T22:23:07Z p_l: jmercouris: yep
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2019-12-26T22:37:26Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Xach: I'm getting a lot of timeouts from quicklis
2019-12-26T22:38:31Z fiddlerwoaroof_: pinging beta.quicklisp.org is working, but curling a quicklisp url (like http://beta.quicklisp.org/archive/kebab/2015-06-08/kebab-20150608-git.tgz) randomly hanging
2019-12-26T22:38:57Z p_l: hmm, that's on S3 with CDN enabled, it shouldn't fail that bad
2019-12-26T22:39:11Z fiddlerwoaroof_: (although, I'm no longer able to reproduce, maybe it was a AWS hiccup)
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2019-12-26T22:45:04Z aeth: drmeister: people are talking about you here as "dr meister" so you didn't get pinged.
2019-12-26T22:46:31Z drmeister: I prefer Mister Professor Schafmeister.  That's what I tell my daughter's boyfriend.
2019-12-26T22:47:55Z drmeister: aeth: Thank you by the way.  What's up?  Reading...
2019-12-26T22:48:20Z p_l: drmeister: is professor a rank assigned directly to you or to position you hold? Asking out of curiosity, I've encountered both systems
2019-12-26T22:48:24Z aeth: drmeister: mostly a discussion of jupyter notebooks and org-mode
2019-12-26T22:49:21Z drmeister: What's 'next' in "someone made jupyter like notebooks for next" ?
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2019-12-26T22:49:33Z aeth: p_l: personally, I just assume everyone with a PhD in academia uses the title 'professor' because if they're not a professor then it's flattery, but if they are and I don't say so then it's insulting.
2019-12-26T22:49:36Z p_l: I supect it meant next-browser?
2019-12-26T22:49:51Z p_l: aeth: it can have *legal* meaning in places
2019-12-26T22:49:54Z drmeister: Yes - what is the next-browser?
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2019-12-26T22:50:03Z prumnopytis: aeth: that's not right in most places, is it?
2019-12-26T22:50:14Z drmeister: Googling.
2019-12-26T22:50:24Z aeth: prumnopytis: no, it's not. I think 'professor' is usually a rank that's earned
2019-12-26T22:50:24Z p_l: drmeister: ah, next-browser is webkit wrapped in CL with CL api and CL doing GUI other than the webkit render
2019-12-26T22:51:13Z p_l: aeth: in Poland you have "extraordinary" and "ordinary" professor, and the latter is legally protected title that involves officially getting it from the president of Poland
2019-12-26T22:51:34Z aeth: p_l: I think in the US, the lower rank is usually something like 'associate professor'
2019-12-26T22:53:23Z p_l: "extraordinary" is valid only within one university that gave you that title and the extraordinary refers to the fact that you're not "ordinarily" considered one
2019-12-26T22:54:29Z drmeister: Professor is a rank that one earns.  You start out as an "Assistant Professor" when you get a faculty position in a University and then go through a process to become "Associate Professor" and then another to become "Full Professor".   "Professor" is used to describe all three stages.
2019-12-26T22:54:31Z Shinmera: in German we use "ordentlich" (proper) for that designation.
2019-12-26T22:54:37Z p_l: you also need to have a doctorate with an extra called "habilitation" before you're considered for professor in Poland
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2019-12-27T02:32:10Z oni-on-ion: i like wiki.c2.com
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2019-12-27T02:37:29Z pilne: that's one of my favorite wikis
2019-12-27T02:37:39Z pilne: i can get as lost there as i do in the scp wiki lol
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2019-12-27T02:46:46Z oni-on-ion: scp? =) so many great quotes on c2 i want to paste them all.
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2019-12-27T04:55:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-12-27T04:58:17Z oni-on-ion: hi beach! i wanted to say happy holidays yesterday but i was off to sleep. hope you had a good xmas ! [if it does not apply, pls ignore]
2019-12-27T05:00:30Z beach: Thanks.  Holidays are fine so far, hope yours are too.  And today, at my latitude, there is going to be 23 seconds more daylight than yesterday.
2019-12-27T05:01:06Z oni-on-ion: yep thanks, they were fine. above equator?
2019-12-27T05:02:55Z beach: North of it, yes. :)
2019-12-27T05:07:32Z oni-on-ion: ^_^ been reading c2 wiki a good part of the day. getting ready to put my nose to the grind as they say, come 2020
2019-12-27T05:12:37Z beach: I see.  I set as a goal to have a SICL executable before the end of 2019.  That is not going to happen, but I made significant progress.  I think I finished the conversion from MIR to LIR (for x86-64).  Now I need to linearize LIR and turn it into x86-64 machine code.
2019-12-27T05:14:22Z oni-on-ion: today i learned about gccemacs - native compiled elisp. haven't looked into it
2019-12-27T05:14:38Z beach: Interesting.
2019-12-27T05:14:48Z oni-on-ion: what was it turning into before x86-64? is ARM part of the picture at all ?
2019-12-27T05:16:16Z beach: It isn't turning into anything yet.  I can execute HIR (High-level Intermediate Representation) by using a HIR interpreter in a host Common Lisp implementation, but nothing native exists yet.
2019-12-27T05:16:32Z beach: I have no plans for ARM yet.
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2019-12-27T05:17:12Z beach: When ARM happens, it will be ARM 64-bit version.
2019-12-27T05:18:26Z beach: I am hoping that, once I have an executable, I can attract some more external help.
2019-12-27T05:20:20Z beach: Oh, and the ELS deadline is creeping up.  Time to get cracking on some papers.
2019-12-27T05:21:31Z beach: My favorite coauthor is going solo this year, and I promised to have a look at her paper before she submits it.
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2019-12-27T05:25:26Z oni-on-ion: external help, yeah =) is it just you working on it ?
2019-12-27T05:25:51Z oni-on-ion: i am going to keep my eye on ELS  this year
2019-12-27T05:28:47Z beach: I have help from heisig and scymtym on some libraries that we extracted.  But yeah, mostly just me.
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2019-12-27T05:29:13Z beach: You should go to ELS.  It is great place to be.
2019-12-27T05:32:03Z oni-on-ion: i missed visiting my fam this xmas, i am not sure i can make it to euroland
2019-12-27T05:34:39Z beach: Oh well.
2019-12-27T05:36:20Z oni-on-ion: have you been to a lot of them ?
2019-12-27T05:36:58Z beach: Yes, and I was the local organizer of the first one.
2019-12-27T05:36:59Z oni-on-ion: 2020 is april, germany? i am saving up this year specifically for travel so we can see.
2019-12-27T05:37:07Z oni-on-ion: ohh rad
2019-12-27T05:38:01Z beach: Zürich in 2020.  Shinmera is the local organizer.
2019-12-27T05:40:50Z oni-on-ion: oh! are you guys both in EU ?
2019-12-27T05:41:55Z beach: Well, technically Switzerland is not a member state, but otherwise, yes.
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2019-12-27T05:42:53Z beach: I am in France which is definitely in the EU.
2019-12-27T05:49:19Z oni-on-ion: yeah =) sry im canadian but geographically uninclined. been realising most coders i look up to are in europe or have recently moved there. deep thought.
2019-12-27T05:49:24Z beach: My impression is that most Common Lisp activity is in Europe at the moment.
2019-12-27T05:50:12Z oni-on-ion: yeah. those whom i refer are all lispers in some form, else prolog. sprinkling of ocaml.
2019-12-27T05:50:25Z beach: Sure.
2019-12-27T05:50:47Z oni-on-ion: i can't even say "Common Lisp" when someone here asks me "what language do i use" at the local convention
2019-12-27T05:51:10Z beach: People are strange.
2019-12-27T05:51:47Z oni-on-ion: truth
2019-12-27T05:58:32Z oni-on-ion: would you happen to have any thoughts on: "i had been wary of carrying around a Lisp image for deployment and development. but then I realise, the whole Unix/Posix system *is* the C image. which is quite a bit larger and much more complex in terms of versioning. "
2019-12-27T06:02:29Z beach: I basically agree with that.  Unix and Common Lisp are not a good match, which is why I am thinking in terms of CLOSOS.
2019-12-27T06:02:48Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I tend to think of unix as the bash runtime
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2019-12-27T06:09:25Z oni-on-ion: why not call it CLOS ? because thats already a name? but why OS just on CLOS, and not from plain CL ?
2019-12-27T06:09:53Z no-defun-allowed: CLOSOS -> Common Lisp Object System Operating System
2019-12-27T06:10:48Z no-defun-allowed: My understanding is that OOP techniques are going to be very prevalent in CLOSOS, and CLOS is already taken for the forementioned Common Lisp Object System.
2019-12-27T06:10:57Z beach: Yes, because CLOS is already a name.  And because CLOS is an essential feature.
2019-12-27T06:11:45Z oni-on-ion: yeah no-defun-allowed , but then also, System System ?? =)
2019-12-27T06:12:01Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Nice summary.
2019-12-27T06:12:06Z oni-on-ion: why not CLOOS ?
2019-12-27T06:12:08Z no-defun-allowed has been thinking about trying to do OS development again
2019-12-27T06:13:36Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps standalone CL is what I need to get into it. I had tried once to write some drivers in a mock-Scheme interpreter in C, but it was not very fun and I gave up after writing a PC speaker driver.
2019-12-27T06:13:38Z beach: oni-on-ion: Forget about the meaning.  Pronounce it "Colosuss".
2019-12-27T06:13:53Z beach: Er, Colossus.
2019-12-27T06:13:57Z oni-on-ion: heh.
2019-12-27T06:14:16Z oni-on-ion: no-defun-allowed, greenspun's 10th law !
2019-12-27T06:14:36Z oni-on-ion: i was just reading - http://wiki.c2.com/?GreenspunsTenthRuleOfProgramming
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2019-12-27T06:16:25Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Perhaps you would like to give some thought to object-oriented device drivers in Common Lisp, inspired by I/O Kit.?
2019-12-27T06:17:08Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I think I've heard of it, but all the links I found for it were dead.
2019-12-27T06:17:43Z oni-on-ion: that is a lot of work. there are a lot of devices.
2019-12-27T06:17:53Z beach: Hmm.  I haven't looked at it for some time.
2019-12-27T06:18:59Z no-defun-allowed: And then, I think I would be lost without an interactive environment.
2019-12-27T06:19:04Z beach: oni-on-ion: It's the architecture I am interested in.  Once that is in place, others can help out.
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2019-12-27T06:20:30Z beach: Maybe Mezzano can be used as a development environment?
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2019-12-27T06:21:05Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Wait, do you mean the macOS driver system?
2019-12-27T06:21:25Z no-defun-allowed: I think I was thinking of some other free driver "kit".
2019-12-27T06:21:27Z beach: Yes.
2019-12-27T06:21:58Z no-defun-allowed: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/DeviceDrivers/Conceptual/IOKitFundamentals/Features/Features.html looks relevant to that.
2019-12-27T06:22:12Z beach: Create a CLOS architecture inspired by I/O Kit.
2019-12-27T06:22:13Z oni-on-ion: hmmm. i can't see that, there are so many devices. the manpower is just ... well unless the UI is just so awesome that everyone gets pulled in.
2019-12-27T06:22:37Z oni-on-ion: i think Squeak has an IOKit as well =)
2019-12-27T06:22:56Z oni-on-ion: Common Object System Lisp System Operating System System
2019-12-27T06:23:02Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Yeah, unless you pick a particular target system configuration, device drivers are the tedious part of os development
2019-12-27T06:23:14Z beach: oni-on-ion: I am a researcher.  The most important thing to me is to demonstrate feasibility.
2019-12-27T06:23:30Z fiddlerwoaroof_: which is why most operating systems just target an emulator
2019-12-27T06:23:33Z oni-on-ion: the testing, the specs, the NDAs, the deprecation, so much to device driver dev...
2019-12-27T06:23:40Z oni-on-ion: beach, ah, fair enough ^_^
2019-12-27T06:24:05Z no-defun-allowed wonders how she is hindering driver development
2019-12-27T06:24:20Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Yes, that's it.
2019-12-27T06:24:25Z oni-on-ion: i think throwing it on top of a bare naked linux kern would be feasible, so not worth really doing except practicality
2019-12-27T06:25:27Z beach: no-defun-allowed: But it is possible that we can do better with CLOS.
2019-12-27T06:25:48Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, the IOKit seems to use a very sad subset of C++.
2019-12-27T06:26:06Z oni-on-ion: CoreFoundation ?
2019-12-27T06:26:09Z fiddlerwoaroof_: It would be interesting to see if CLOS can get fast enough for, say, a GPU driver
2019-12-27T06:26:36Z oni-on-ion: (kind of like how GLib (gnu) simulates some of c++? its referenced on that link above, btw)
2019-12-27T06:26:54Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof_: There is nothing intrinsically slow about CLOS.
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2019-12-27T06:27:21Z oni-on-ion: its definately 100% possible. but that is a lot of dirty code, its not made any easier with using CL at all.
2019-12-27T06:27:36Z oni-on-ion: except minimizing code repetition
2019-12-27T06:27:37Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Sure, but dynamic dispatch usually adds some overhead, right?
2019-12-27T06:27:44Z no-defun-allowed: fiddlerwoaroof_: Theoretically, CLOSOS should be faster than Unix as it doesn't need context switches to handle I/O operations.
2019-12-27T06:28:15Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof_: Not if my research is being used. :)
2019-12-27T06:28:16Z oni-on-ion: fiddlerwoaroof_, for a driver, perhaps the driver itself is the CLOS object, where the code inside is less objectual and more "system" level
2019-12-27T06:28:19Z fiddlerwoaroof_: my impression with both the GPU and sound cards is that you have pretty tight latency requirements as well as high throughput
2019-12-27T06:28:40Z oni-on-ion: no-defun-allowed, single context? preemptive is it called?
2019-12-27T06:28:42Z no-defun-allowed: But GPU drivers are a pain, so realistically, it won't happen soon.
2019-12-27T06:29:19Z oni-on-ion: let's get ... okay how about this, let's get an interface that doing minecraft buids drivers. then we can just harness the enrgy...
2019-12-27T06:30:39Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion: The magic there is the single address space, allowing a "user" program to run driver code without a context switch or syscall.
2019-12-27T06:31:40Z beach: Yes, we "just" need to have a good garbage collector.
2019-12-27T06:31:53Z oni-on-ion: like genera, whole system access? ie. can break into whole image
2019-12-27T06:31:58Z oni-on-ion: hmm
2019-12-27T06:32:30Z beach: oni-on-ion: No, not at all.  Multi-user with capabilities.
2019-12-27T06:33:17Z oni-on-ion: ahh. wait why?
2019-12-27T06:33:39Z oni-on-ion: i mean how come multi user? i somewhat miss the days before windows had a login screen
2019-12-27T06:34:14Z oni-on-ion: could it be optional? not to shake your research though. is it practical to have single user OS ?
2019-12-27T06:34:34Z beach: At least two users are needed.  The end user and the administrator.
2019-12-27T06:35:04Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Only if you conflate the concept of a role and a user
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2019-12-27T06:35:27Z beach: Call it what you want.  Role is fine with me.
2019-12-27T06:35:30Z oni-on-ion: at one point i was using root for linux because i wanted to eliminate the need for su/sudo and checking what i can use under whom. ie. "iwconfig: no program found" under regular user
2019-12-27T06:35:45Z oni-on-ion: fiddlerwoaroof_, ahh, like winnt?? sounds terrible =)
2019-12-27T06:36:43Z beach: It is looking more and more as if I am about to retype the entire CLOSOS paper here, so I think I'll quit.
2019-12-27T06:37:22Z oni-on-ion: alright. i am getting some of my own ideas after all.
2019-12-27T06:37:44Z fiddlerwoaroof_: oni-on-ion: have you seen https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
2019-12-27T06:39:57Z oni-on-ion: ohh! i have not, thank you =)
2019-12-27T06:40:29Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Last time I tried, I couldn't get the released disk images to boot :( but, they worked at one point
2019-12-27T06:40:52Z fiddlerwoaroof_: And it's pretty actively developed
2019-12-27T06:41:03Z fiddlerwoaroof_: So they must work for someone
2019-12-27T06:41:19Z oni-on-ion: i am wondering, how come low level things are mentioned in the "changes" - is it doing its own lisp?
2019-12-27T06:41:51Z fiddlerwoaroof_: yes
2019-12-27T06:42:00Z oni-on-ion: ah there is a channel. sorry, i will check it out
2019-12-27T06:42:01Z oni-on-ion: ok =)
2019-12-27T06:42:02Z fiddlerwoaroof_: it's a new implementation of CL
2019-12-27T06:42:36Z oni-on-ion: thats interesting. i wonder why still - perhaps it is also research project
2019-12-27T06:42:55Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I think it's more of a "why not?" in this case
2019-12-27T06:43:18Z oni-on-ion: ah ^_^
2019-12-27T06:43:43Z fiddlerwoaroof_: froggey also wrote a llvm IR -> CL compiler and, I think, used it to run Doom inside Mezzano
2019-12-27T06:44:23Z oni-on-ion: ohh, thats smart
2019-12-27T06:46:35Z markasoftware: let's say I have a macro (defmacro with-foo-as-bar (&body body) `(let ((foo "bar")) ,@body))
2019-12-27T06:47:05Z markasoftware: Then, if i call this from a different package as (original-package:with-foo-as-bar foo), it will throw an error
2019-12-27T06:47:30Z markasoftware: I understand this behavior. The package for `foo` must be determined at read-time.
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2019-12-27T06:47:47Z markasoftware: I'm stuck on how to fix it, though.
2019-12-27T06:48:57Z markasoftware: All the builtin macros that do something like this take the variable to be bound as an argument. For example, (with-output-to-string (foo) ...) takes my foo symbol as an argument, so it doesn't need to care about which package thing sare happening in
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2019-12-27T06:49:22Z markasoftware: I think the right answer to my question is just "don't do that" but I'd be interested in hearing if there's another way.
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2019-12-27T06:52:25Z oni-on-ion: there is a way, but my head is in fog to see it
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2019-12-27T06:53:29Z oni-on-ion: not just by (in-package) but i think the kind of thing you attempt should be welcomed for macros, as substitution is the meat
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2019-12-27T07:03:15Z beach: markasoftware: Yes, that's why the standard macros take the symbol as an argument.
2019-12-27T07:03:43Z fiddlerwoaroof_: markasoftware: (let ((foo-sym (intern "FOO"))) `(let ((,foo-sym "bar")) ...))
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2019-12-27T07:04:35Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I believe INTERN will do the right thing, because *PACKAGE* is dynamically bound, but this sort of side-effect is usually a bad idea
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2019-12-27T07:05:18Z fiddlerwoaroof_: The basic trick, though, is to manually create the symbol in the appropriate package.
2019-12-27T07:06:36Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Also, this sort of "anaphoric" macro is usually more confusing than it's worth, since it introduces non-lexical names
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2019-12-27T07:06:50Z fiddlerwoaroof_: non-lically-apparent names, that is
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2019-12-27T07:50:49Z pagnol: Is anyone here writing DDL statements for a common rdbms in some kind of LISP?
2019-12-27T07:51:30Z pagnol: I like Postmodern and would like to extend the approach to DDLs
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2019-12-27T08:16:30Z phoe: I think that Postmodern allows you to create tables in its own lispy way
2019-12-27T08:16:46Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Yeah, it has a couple ways to do that
2019-12-27T08:17:11Z fiddlerwoaroof_: including something like (postmodern:execute (:create :table "foo"...))
2019-12-27T08:18:03Z fiddlerwoaroof_: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/postmodern-examples/postmodern-table-management
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2019-12-27T08:43:29Z flip214: Is there an NaCl or libsodium compatible extension for IronClad?
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2019-12-27T09:04:01Z boeg: Can anyone recommend a library for handling CLI arguments? I'm currently using unix-opts (https://github.com/libre-man/unix-opts) but it seems to be missing some things, like default value, requiring either this or that argument, and some other things i'm looking for, and if there is a library out there that has more of these features, it might be worth it to switch to it for me
2019-12-27T09:04:17Z jackdaniel: boeg: net.didierverna.clon
2019-12-27T09:04:37Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/didierverna/clon/
2019-12-27T09:04:47Z jackdaniel: navigate to a homepage, it has well written manuals
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2019-12-27T09:05:04Z boeg: jackdaniel: thanks, ill give it a try!
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2019-12-27T11:36:05Z D0dei: Hello guys, anyone have ever tried out lispworks as cl ide?
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2019-12-27T11:38:45Z dlowe: I have
2019-12-27T11:39:07Z dlowe: They have a personal edition that you can try out for free
2019-12-27T11:40:45Z D0dei: Did you ever used it on linux?
2019-12-27T11:41:06Z p_l: D0dei: it works well
2019-12-27T11:41:08Z p_l: (on linux)
2019-12-27T11:41:17Z D0dei: I'm experiencing some problems with the installation
2019-12-27T11:41:18Z p_l: the personal edition no longer works on Mac, though
2019-12-27T11:41:50Z D0dei: because everything works fine, but only through command line
2019-12-27T11:41:59Z D0dei: I would like to have a gui, instead
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2019-12-27T11:49:33Z dlowe: ... I suspect they don't have the 32-bit gtk libraries installed
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2019-12-27T12:31:26Z je4i: did zou try their mailing list lisp-hug@lispworks.com?
2019-12-27T12:32:51Z je4i: *you
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2019-12-27T14:05:52Z Xach: markasoftware: another option is to make FOO external and :use or :import/import it.
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2019-12-27T14:54:22Z beach: Remind me what some of the reasons might be that ASDF recompiles the components of a system that I just compiled?
2019-12-27T14:54:45Z beach: I seem to remember this issue having been discussed, but I don't remember any details.
2019-12-27T14:55:39Z beach: Alternatively, perhaps someone could suggest to me what to do in order to investigate the problem.
2019-12-27T14:58:42Z jackdaniel: beach: asdf looks at the modification date of a file, if it is newer than the compiled fasl then everything starting from this file is recompiled. could it be it?
2019-12-27T14:58:54Z beach: I don't think so.
2019-12-27T14:59:33Z beach: The source file is from October 16, and the FASL file it overwrites is from today.
2019-12-27T14:59:47Z beach: The first file that is compiled that is.
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2019-12-27T15:07:00Z MichaelRaskin: It considers all dependencies — including, by the way, itself.
2019-12-27T15:07:40Z beach: I don't know what that information implies.
2019-12-27T15:08:06Z MichaelRaskin: How did you compile the system?
2019-12-27T15:08:15Z MichaelRaskin: How you are now loading it?
2019-12-27T15:08:31Z beach: (asdf:load-system '#:sicl-boot)
2019-12-27T15:09:12Z MichaelRaskin: Both times?
2019-12-27T15:09:15Z beach: It is probably some silly mistake, but I don't know how to debug it.
2019-12-27T15:09:24Z beach: Yes, as many times as I like.
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2019-12-27T15:11:33Z beach: Maybe I should start by flushing the FASL cache in case there is something strange in there.
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2019-12-27T15:13:15Z beach: Nope, same problem.
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2019-12-27T15:17:07Z beach: I thought I might have some source file with a date in the future, but that is not the case.
2019-12-27T15:18:32Z MichaelRaskin: Maybe it is time to trace safe-file-write-date ?
2019-12-27T15:18:56Z MichaelRaskin: I guess it is uiop/filesystem::safe-file-write-date
2019-12-27T15:19:51Z pfdietz: This system I want to use has poor test coverage.  I know what I'll be doing this weekend.
2019-12-27T15:19:53Z beach: Yes, it seems to be.  What would tracing it tell me?
2019-12-27T15:20:50Z pfdietz: If I move tests to a commonly used test framework (in CL), which one should I use?
2019-12-27T15:20:50Z MichaelRaskin: You will see what files ASDF checks (in the sense of timestamps) to decide whether to recompile things
2019-12-27T15:21:11Z beach: Ah, OK.  Let me try it.
2019-12-27T15:21:26Z beach: By the way, the documentation string for that function uses the wrong terminology. :(
2019-12-27T15:21:49Z jackdaniel: pfdietz: common recommendations are fiveam and fiasco
2019-12-27T15:23:56Z pfdietz: If I vaguely recall correctly 5am gets more usage.   Locally we seem to be using stefil though.
2019-12-27T15:25:12Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I am afraid I don't understand what to look for.
2019-12-27T15:27:06Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Never mind.  I'll look for it some other time.  It is not that big a problem.  Just disconcerting.
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2019-12-27T15:28:07Z MichaelRaskin: Maybe you should also trace compute-action-stamp
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2019-12-27T15:29:05Z MichaelRaskin: There you can see what is considered stale
2019-12-27T15:29:24Z beach: I'll try it.
2019-12-27T15:34:45Z pfdietz: In the quicklisp dist, fiveam/5am seems to have more than an order of magnitude more use than fiasco.
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2019-12-27T15:36:45Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I probably need to read up on what these functions do first.  Thanks for your help.  Now I need to go start dinner preparations.
2019-12-27T15:38:41Z MichaelRaskin: Have a nice dinner
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2019-12-27T15:56:18Z pfdietz: Looks like fiveam, then prove, then everything else much less used.
2019-12-27T15:57:00Z Shinmera: prove is pretty bad though, I honestly don't understand how it got so popular.
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2019-12-27T16:01:32Z pfdietz: So, fiveam is the default.  I should also weight these by how old/unmaintained the systems are.
2019-12-27T16:03:26Z pfdietz: Of the others, lisp-unit, then lift, then rove, then a herd of little used frameworks.
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2019-12-27T16:05:43Z pfdietz: rt is used 31 times.  I think it appears 10 times copied in various places in QL. :)
2019-12-27T16:10:43Z Xach: the birth of vendoring
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2019-12-27T16:14:44Z pfdietz: The other thing one notices doing this is how many systems in a QL dist lack tests.
2019-12-27T16:15:37Z pfdietz: Ideally they'd all have tests, and all report the test results in some automation-friendly way.
2019-12-27T16:19:00Z flip214: luis: current slime head gives me undefined variable: SWANK:*COMMUNICATION-STYLE*
2019-12-27T16:19:21Z pfdietz: Why does Cliki list COVER as obsolete?
2019-12-27T16:20:16Z luis: flip214: at what stage?
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2019-12-27T16:34:10Z flip214: luis: checking whether old FASL are the problem, one sec
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2019-12-27T16:40:07Z flip214: luis: sorry, seems to be resolved now
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2019-12-27T17:27:52Z luis: flip214: did you figure out what happened?
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2019-12-27T19:02:29Z Xach: happy quicklispdistmas!
2019-12-27T19:02:47Z slyrus__: santa didn't bring me an XLS parser :( must have been on the wrong list.
2019-12-27T19:02:56Z slyrus__: but happy new release to you too!
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2019-12-27T19:04:10Z MichaelRaskin: slyrus__: I think you were on the wrong list when you received a need for XLS parser…
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2019-12-27T19:09:09Z MichaelRaskin: slyrus__: did you consider burgled-batteries + UNO + LibreOffice?
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2019-12-27T19:22:22Z flip214: luis: some FASL resp. image caching issue - purged my ~/.slime/fasl and recompiled
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2019-12-27T20:08:33Z prumnopytis: Xach: Thank you for quicklisp.
2019-12-27T20:09:24Z pfdietz: lisp-xl is inadequate, I assume
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2019-12-27T20:37:10Z Xach: prumnopytis: you're welcome
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2019-12-27T20:47:02Z pfdietz: (ql:update-dist "quicklisp")
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2019-12-27T20:51:11Z jmercouris: how can I strip HTML from a string? existing library?
2019-12-27T20:51:31Z jmercouris: "<p>Hello world</p>"-> "Hello World"
2019-12-27T20:51:40Z jmercouris: in case it was not clear
2019-12-27T20:51:58Z Xach: I can't think of a library offhand.
2019-12-27T20:52:22Z jmercouris: I was afraid it was going to come down to regex joy
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2019-12-27T20:52:52Z White_Flame: probably the cleanest would be to load it into a HTML or XML reader, then traverse and concatenate all the plain text spans
2019-12-27T20:53:15Z White_Flame: depending on how messy the HTML is
2019-12-27T20:53:24Z jmercouris: the HTML could be anything, it is any site
2019-12-27T20:53:36Z jmercouris: I'm trying to capture the text contents (if they exist) between the anchor tags on a site
2019-12-27T20:53:46Z jmercouris: <a href="about:blank">This is the text I want</a>
2019-12-27T20:53:58Z jmercouris: sometimes it could be an image, etc
2019-12-27T20:54:02Z White_Flame: yeah, use a hTML library
2019-12-27T20:54:12Z White_Flame: don't try to fiddle with it at the character level
2019-12-27T20:54:44Z White_Flame: there's way too many edge cases
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2019-12-27T20:54:48Z jmercouris: I know many libraries that go from SEXP-> HTML, but I don't know any libraries that load HTML as a string and create entities
2019-12-27T20:54:55Z jmercouris: do you know of one?
2019-12-27T20:55:07Z White_Flame: no, I've only generated HTML from lisp, not read it
2019-12-27T20:55:26Z Xach: http://quickdocs.org/plump/
2019-12-27T20:55:34Z Xach: (just searching a little on quickdocs)
2019-12-27T20:55:49Z jmercouris: for future readers, something like this could work: https://github.com/archimag/cl-sanitize
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2019-12-27T20:56:03Z jmercouris: Plump could also work
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2019-12-27T20:58:51Z MichaelRaskin: There is html5-parser, too
2019-12-27T20:59:01Z MichaelRaskin: That's what I use in Thoughtful-Theridion
2019-12-27T20:59:59Z jmercouris: MichaelRaskin: https://github.com/rotatef/cl-html5-parser?
2019-12-27T21:00:48Z MichaelRaskin: Yes, I think so
2019-12-27T21:01:17Z MichaelRaskin: If you need to pick a specific tag, you might want to use css-selectors
2019-12-27T21:02:43Z jmercouris: Xach: I thought you didn't like quickdocs?
2019-12-27T21:03:07Z Xach: jmercouris: i do not like the name, but the service is useful
2019-12-27T21:03:41Z jmercouris: I see
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2019-12-27T21:04:27Z jmercouris: here's something interesting
2019-12-27T21:04:35Z jmercouris: (ql:quickload :cl-sanitize) -> system not found
2019-12-27T21:04:46Z jmercouris: (ql:system-apropos "sanitize") -> #<SYSTEM sanitize / cl-sanitize-20130720-git / quicklisp 2019-10-08>
2019-12-27T21:05:04Z jmercouris: in this case I had to do :sanitize
2019-12-27T21:05:05Z MichaelRaskin: So, load sanitize
2019-12-27T21:05:12Z jmercouris: my question is, why doesnt cl-sanitize also work?
2019-12-27T21:05:13Z MichaelRaskin: The repository is cl-sanitize
2019-12-27T21:05:22Z jmercouris: aha!
2019-12-27T21:05:22Z MichaelRaskin: But .asd file is sanitize.asd
2019-12-27T21:05:29Z jmercouris: so one is the system, one is the repository name
2019-12-27T21:05:39Z jmercouris: you know what
2019-12-27T21:05:43Z jmercouris: in hindsight that should be quite obvious
2019-12-27T21:05:47Z jmercouris: since it says "-git"
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2019-12-27T21:18:08Z galdor: I tried to contact lisp works people last weekend using lisp-support@lispworks.com (I could not find a generic contact address) regarding legal information about CLHS but haven't received any answer
2019-12-27T21:18:31Z galdor: does someone know a more suitable contact address ?
2019-12-27T21:18:52Z jmercouris: that is a suitable address, I have a personal address.. but I don't know if they would appreciate it being given out
2019-12-27T21:18:59Z jmercouris: they will respond, perhaps ping them again
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2019-12-27T21:25:03Z ahungry: is there any way for clhs or a clhs equivalent to be FOSS? The clhs source material itself is copyright ANSI or something right?
2019-12-27T21:25:16Z Xach: galdor: what kind of question did you have? i know a little bit.
2019-12-27T21:25:27Z Xach: ahungry: the source material is available in the public domain.
2019-12-27T21:25:53Z Xach: ahungry: in the past few years there have been several parallel efforts to make a new html doc from it
2019-12-27T21:26:49Z Shinmera: jmercouris: (plump:text (plump:parse ...))
2019-12-27T21:27:01Z galdor: I'd like to write a small stylesheet to at least fix the white background and limit the width of text blocks; but it requires small modifications (linking the CSS file in all HTML docs)
2019-12-27T21:27:15Z galdor: and modifications are explicitely prohibited by the license of the CLHS
2019-12-27T21:27:35Z galdor: so I asked if publishing the CSS file and instructions on how to patch the HTML files (maybe even a script) would be fine
2019-12-27T21:28:22Z Xach: galdor: ok. i cannot answer for them but the answer is yes it is fine.
2019-12-27T21:28:51Z galdor: I fail to see why it would be a problem, but asking first felt like the polite thing to do
2019-12-27T21:28:55Z jmercouris: Shinmera: thank you
2019-12-27T21:28:55Z ahungry: Xach: interesting, thanks, that is good to know - the source material = ANSI stuff?  not the CLHS itself?
2019-12-27T21:29:16Z Xach: ahungry: dpans3 is the thing i mean, the final tex sources of the spec.
2019-12-27T21:29:42Z Xach: galdor: in this case it is not
2019-12-27T21:32:24Z jmercouris: Shinmera: do you think I should use plump or sanitize?
2019-12-27T21:32:29Z jmercouris: both work just fine
2019-12-27T21:32:33Z Shinmera: galdor: If you publish it as a userstyle that others can add it's fine since you're not redistributing the modified clhs yourself.
2019-12-27T21:32:43Z Shinmera: jmercouris: I have no experience with sanitize, so I have no opinion.
2019-12-27T21:32:53Z jmercouris: Shinmera: is Plump useful in general?
2019-12-27T21:32:59Z Shinmera: uh
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2019-12-27T21:33:19Z Shinmera: I don't know how to answer that
2019-12-27T21:33:29Z Shinmera: It's an HTML/XML parser.
2019-12-27T21:33:42Z jmercouris: I can read the README too
2019-12-27T21:33:43Z galdor: since we're talking about it, what's the rationale behind not allowing redistribution ?
2019-12-27T21:33:54Z jmercouris: I'm just wondering if I should bring it in for extra functionality it may offer in the future...
2019-12-27T21:34:14Z Shinmera: Plump won't change in the future, it's pretty done and works well.
2019-12-27T21:34:30Z jmercouris: I meant that cl-sanitize is pretty one dimensional basically only exposing one thing
2019-12-27T21:34:36Z jmercouris: whereas with Plump one could theoretically do more things
2019-12-27T21:34:43Z jmercouris: just wondering if that day will come or not...
2019-12-27T21:34:50Z Shinmera: Well, there's libraries that build on it.
2019-12-27T21:35:39Z jmercouris: Plump it is
2019-12-27T21:35:41Z jmercouris: SOLD!
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2019-12-27T21:36:06Z Shinmera: lquery is an extension some people seem to enjoy, for example.
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2019-12-27T21:44:21Z jmercouris: et voila Shinmera https://github.com/atlas-engineer/next/commit/73675adeac97dccbc3a6a2f2311d583a6f82f498
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2019-12-27T21:46:23Z Shinmera: cool
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2019-12-27T21:52:31Z _death: Xach: I wonder.. when you make a new quicklisp release sometimes systems get removed due to not building.. did you consider using the versions from the last quicklisp release instead, assuming that they build?
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2019-12-27T21:54:41Z Shinmera: They probably don't build anymore due to dependencies or the implementation changing and the authors being unresponsive about maintenance.
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2019-12-27T21:56:40Z _death: if it's due to dependencies, yeah, that wouldn't help.. but if it's due to a change in the system itself it could.. personally I only half-use quicklisp so not really affected, but seeing something like gbbopen removed..
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2019-12-27T22:06:08Z Shinmera: If there's a change in the system itself Xach usually files issues with the project
2019-12-27T22:06:52Z Shinmera: In my experience things only get removed if the maintainers are unresponsive. Can't hold up the entire world because a few projects can't keep up.
2019-12-27T22:08:22Z Xach: _death: i do that sometimes.
2019-12-27T22:08:23Z MichaelRaskin: A bit better package-local-nicknames support, and having an older version of dependency in the image will even be easy
2019-12-27T22:09:08Z Xach: _death: one problem is that new sbcls break programs so keeping the old version makes no difference.
2019-12-27T22:09:31Z Xach: i reached out to dan corkill several times about gbbopen using an sbcl internal, for example, but no response.
2019-12-27T22:10:18Z _death: Xach: yeah, I apparently had a local fix for that
2019-12-27T22:10:45Z _death: if it's the sb-impl::output-float-infinity thing
2019-12-27T22:11:52Z Xach: yes
2019-12-27T22:11:55Z Xach: or similar
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2019-12-27T22:20:55Z _death: but I think I made that change quite a while ago, so interesting that it only got removed now
2019-12-27T22:22:47Z _death: do you keep non-building stuff in releases for a while before "giving up"?
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2019-12-27T22:39:13Z Xach: _death: yes
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2019-12-27T22:42:13Z _death: I see.  thanks
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2019-12-28T02:25:08Z jcowan: galdor: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, but I predict:
2019-12-28T02:25:15Z jcowan: 1) that if you do this, the case will never come to court;
2019-12-28T02:25:54Z jcowan: 2) if it does, Lispworks will have a hard time proving that what they have added to the public-domain content is sufficient to establish copyright
2019-12-28T02:27:01Z jcowan: 3) if they do, the judge will not care if you have changed the HTML or just distributed a script to do so: attempts to evade infringement in this fashion just annoy judges.
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2019-12-28T04:13:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-12-28T04:16:12Z markasoftware: Is use of `macroexpand` usually a code smell?
2019-12-28T04:17:29Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2019-12-28T04:17:39Z beach: markasoftware: Not necessarily.  The implementation of some standard macros requires it, or at least macroexpand-1.
2019-12-28T04:18:06Z markasoftware: i want the expansion of a macro to be passed to another macro
2019-12-28T04:18:57Z beach: markasoftware: I don't know how experienced you are, but a much more common mistake is the overuse of macros in the first place.
2019-12-28T04:21:05Z markasoftware: i mean, i could always take a function as an argument instead of &body...
2019-12-28T04:21:23Z markasoftware: but where's the fun in that?
2019-12-28T04:22:26Z beach: markasoftware: It is impossible to tell whether what you do is the right thing, from your skimpy description of what you want to accomplish.
2019-12-28T04:22:53Z no-defun-allowed: Sadly, other developers prefer to have less "fun" in their interfaces to your code.
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2019-12-28T05:02:41Z LdBeth: It sounds like you want a compiler for your DSL
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2019-12-28T06:52:42Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/Y6cDTF6XGB/
2019-12-28T06:52:49Z vms14: why this function isn't working?
2019-12-28T06:53:07Z vms14: I'm trying to count chars by using recursion, but it never ends
2019-12-28T06:53:15Z vms14: (count-char 0 0 "oh my cat is very nice" #\a)
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2019-12-28T06:54:16Z beach: Why are you using POSITION?
2019-12-28T06:54:52Z vms14: because I was reading the ansi common lisp book and saw the position function, so I wanted to practice with that
2019-12-28T06:55:10Z vms14: position should return nil if there is no such item
2019-12-28T06:55:10Z no-defun-allowed: Why recursion?
2019-12-28T06:55:11Z beach: OK, but you realize this is not a good way of doing it.
2019-12-28T06:55:23Z vms14: beach: you mean in performance terms?
2019-12-28T06:55:37Z no-defun-allowed: The first thing that comes to mind is that you haven't written when to stop.
2019-12-28T06:55:44Z beach: vms14: Yes.
2019-12-28T06:55:47Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: I want to learn recursion
2019-12-28T06:56:07Z beach: vms14: Also, you probably need to do (1+ <the position>) to avoid counting the same char over and over.
2019-12-28T06:56:10Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: it should stop, since position should return nil
2019-12-28T06:56:17Z vms14: oh, then that was
2019-12-28T06:57:00Z vms14: ty beach, that was the problem
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2019-12-28T06:57:11Z beach: ywlcm.
2019-12-28T06:57:45Z no-defun-allowed: If the last character is the character you are searching for, I think the position will be incremented past the last index of the string.
2019-12-28T06:58:23Z beach: That should still work though.
2019-12-28T06:58:41Z beach: ... as I recall.
2019-12-28T06:58:42Z vms14: (count-char 0 0 "oh my cat is very nice" #\e) works
2019-12-28T06:59:19Z ebrasca: vms14: I think loop is better for this situation.
2019-12-28T06:59:19Z beach: vms14: The fact that it works in one particular implementation does not mean it is conforming.
2019-12-28T06:59:33Z vms14: ebrasca: yes, I also need to learn about the loop macro
2019-12-28T06:59:36Z beach: ebrasca: Not if you want to learn about recursion and POSITION at the same time.
2019-12-28T06:59:54Z beach: ebrasca: Which is what the requirement was.
2019-12-28T07:00:04Z vms14: it's a shame I don't know a lot of basic lisp stuff
2019-12-28T07:00:23Z ebrasca: vms14: What about using lists for recursion?
2019-12-28T07:00:23Z White_Flame: clhs count
2019-12-28T07:00:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_countc.htm
2019-12-28T07:00:31Z beach: ebrasca: And, no, the good solution would be to just use COUNT.
2019-12-28T07:00:32Z vms14: I tend to use dolist and dotimes
2019-12-28T07:00:41Z no-defun-allowed: The CLHS calls START and END "bounding index designators", which suggests they have to be less than the length of the sequence.
2019-12-28T07:01:10Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: yes, if I put a bigger index in position fails
2019-12-28T07:01:20Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Look in the glossary.
2019-12-28T07:01:21Z vms14: but idk why the function works
2019-12-28T07:01:31Z ebrasca: beach: I din't know #'count
2019-12-28T07:01:45Z beach: vms14: The fact that it works in one particular implementation does not mean it is conforming.
2019-12-28T07:02:14Z no-defun-allowed: beach: That leads to "bounding index", which states that (<= 0 start end (length sequence)) must hold.
2019-12-28T07:02:38Z beach: Yes, so the length of the sequence is a valid index.
2019-12-28T07:02:46Z beach: Which is 1 beyond the end.
2019-12-28T07:02:51Z no-defun-allowed: Good point.
2019-12-28T07:03:07Z vms14: beach: works in ecl and sbcl, I'll try in clisp
2019-12-28T07:03:16Z beach: vms14: The fact that it works in one particular implementation does not mean it is conforming.
2019-12-28T07:03:20Z vms14: anyway, it was only a test, that function has not use
2019-12-28T07:03:24Z vms14: no*
2019-12-28T07:03:24Z beach: vms14: You need to learn to read the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2019-12-28T07:03:39Z vms14: right, I need to get used to hyperspec
2019-12-28T07:03:44Z no-defun-allowed: vms14: The right thing to do would be to check what the HyperSpec states the language features you use states they should do.
2019-12-28T07:03:45Z vms14: still, we should create man pages
2019-12-28T07:03:51Z beach: vms14: You can test it in all the implementations accessible to you, it still doesn't make it conforming.
2019-12-28T07:04:10Z beach: clhs position
2019-12-28T07:04:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pos_p.htm
2019-12-28T07:04:20Z beach: vms14: There you go ^
2019-12-28T07:05:02Z beach: vms14: You are allowed to download the Common Lisp HyperSpec and use it locally.
2019-12-28T07:05:24Z vms14: hmm
2019-12-28T07:05:27Z no-defun-allowed: I wouldn't bother making man pages. The HyperSpec is (surprisingly) technically superior with its use of hyperlinks, which I don't think are possible to create in man pages.
2019-12-28T07:05:40Z vms14: I was thinking in crawl that site to automate some man pages creation
2019-12-28T07:05:42Z vms14: using perldoc
2019-12-28T07:05:53Z vms14: perl can create man pages
2019-12-28T07:06:04Z beach: Whatever.
2019-12-28T07:06:23Z vms14: I miss a lot to use man for lisp stuff
2019-12-28T07:06:25Z no-defun-allowed: It would be more polite to download the files instead of crawling the LispWorks server, and to use a less line-noise-y language.
2019-12-28T07:06:44Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: yes, and faster, my network isn't good
2019-12-28T07:06:52Z beach: vms14: You are allowed to download the Common Lisp HyperSpec and use it locally.
2019-12-28T07:07:06Z no-defun-allowed: Provided your implementation has good documentation strings, you can check those in SLIME using C-c C-d.
2019-12-28T07:07:09Z vms14: then it should be easier to make a command that looks for those files
2019-12-28T07:08:24Z beach: no-defun-allowed: That's not the same thing though.  A documentation string should mention what the implementation does, and that might include defining behavior that is undefined by the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2019-12-28T07:08:31Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: wasn't that keybind opening a browser?
2019-12-28T07:08:52Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Good point. I think there is also a chord for checking the HyperSpec from SLIME too...
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2019-12-28T07:09:26Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: you're sure it was C-c C-d?
2019-12-28T07:10:35Z vms14: oh, it works if I press C-c C-d C-g
2019-12-28T07:10:40Z no-defun-allowed: C-c C-d ~ opens the entry for a FORMAT directive, C-c C-d g for a glossary term, and C-c C-d # for a reader macro.
2019-12-28T07:10:55Z vms14: but expects lynx I guess
2019-12-28T07:11:22Z beach: C-c C-d h for the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2019-12-28T07:12:20Z no-defun-allowed: There it is.
2019-12-28T07:12:23Z vms14: I have troubles with the lan wire, so my network is slow, and I'll die using that
2019-12-28T07:12:41Z beach: vms14: You are allowed to download the Common Lisp HyperSpec and use it locally.
2019-12-28T07:12:45Z vms14: but I'll try to download the hyperspec and make some keybind/script to read that
2019-12-28T07:13:05Z beach: I think it's a simple Emacs configuration to make it use the local version.
2019-12-28T07:13:28Z vms14: I'll try to fix that shitty network
2019-12-28T07:13:36Z no-defun-allowed: The documentation for common-lisp-hyperspec states "If you copy the HyperSpec to another location, customize the variable `common-lisp-hyperspec-root' to point to that location."
2019-12-28T07:13:53Z beach: My SLIME uses my local version, so it must be easy to configure it.
2019-12-28T07:14:03Z beach: There you go.
2019-12-28T07:15:38Z vms14: ty
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2019-12-28T07:16:50Z beach: vms14: I recommend you do M-x define-global-abbrev<RET>ty<RET>thank you<RET>
2019-12-28T07:17:08Z vms14: meh
2019-12-28T07:17:31Z vms14: I've made the date function to annotate comments
2019-12-28T07:17:35Z vms14: ; Saturday, December 28, 2019
2019-12-28T07:18:40Z vms14: (require 'calendar) (defun date () (interactive) (insert "; " (calendar-date-string (calendar-current-date))))
2019-12-28T07:18:40Z vms14:  
2019-12-28T07:18:55Z beach: vms14: Great!  Next try to use the ISO8601 format.
2019-12-28T07:19:09Z vms14: idk what calendar provides
2019-12-28T07:19:22Z vms14: but I prefer to use calendar than the time command
2019-12-28T07:19:26Z beach: vms14: I recommend you do M-x define-global-abbrev<RET>idk<RET>I don't know<RET>
2019-12-28T07:19:27Z vms14: date*
2019-12-28T07:19:42Z vms14: beach: why you recommend such things?
2019-12-28T07:19:46Z vms14: we're in irc
2019-12-28T07:20:15Z beach: That's no excuse for exposing stupid abbreviations to other members.  You are showing that you don't master your tools.
2019-12-28T07:20:34Z vms14: beach: :O
2019-12-28T07:21:07Z vms14: but you're right that I should do this stuff, I should learn to use emacs much better
2019-12-28T07:21:20Z beach: Exactly my point.
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2019-12-28T07:23:34Z fiddlerwoaroof_: CLHS is also available in info format, which is a lot nicer to use from emacs
2019-12-28T07:23:41Z fiddlerwoaroof_: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CommonLispHyperspec
2019-12-28T07:23:52Z vms14: oh, I've used it, Thank you :D beach
2019-12-28T07:24:03Z vms14: Thank you :D I don't know
2019-12-28T07:24:19Z beach: Heh!  Excellent.
2019-12-28T07:24:54Z beach: vms14: I think you have great potential for mastering stuff.  With the right attitude, you could do it.
2019-12-28T07:25:10Z vms14: I have great google skills
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2019-12-28T07:26:02Z vms14: but also great skill to absorb knowledge
2019-12-28T07:26:22Z vms14: the only problem is I'm not very constant
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2019-12-28T07:26:49Z vms14: this is why all my stuff are only tests or little scripts
2019-12-28T07:26:52Z prumnopytis: If you were constant you probably couldn't absorb knowledge
2019-12-28T07:27:00Z vms14: prumnopytis: what you mean?
2019-12-28T07:27:05Z ahungry: lol
2019-12-28T07:27:09Z ahungry: constants can't change (in programming)
2019-12-28T07:27:16Z vms14: XD
2019-12-28T07:27:22Z ahungry: s/constant/consistent ^^
2019-12-28T07:27:33Z prumnopytis: Yeah I then realised that constants of integration absorb lots ;p
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2019-12-28T07:55:14Z vms14: beach: now it's better (insert "; " (format-time-string "%d-%m-%Y %H:%m"))
2019-12-28T07:55:17Z vms14: ; 28-12-2019 08:12
2019-12-28T07:55:36Z vms14: oh, the year should be first
2019-12-28T07:56:40Z vms14: done
2019-12-28T07:56:47Z vms14: (format-time-string "%Y-%m-%d %H:%m")
2019-12-28T07:57:02Z vms14: xD no
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2019-12-28T07:57:23Z vms14: (format-time-string "%Y-%m-%d %H:%M") *
2019-12-28T07:58:27Z beach: Great work!
2019-12-28T07:58:43Z beach: Again, with this attitude, you can go far.
2019-12-28T07:58:51Z vms14: Thank you :D
2019-12-28T07:59:02Z beach: Heh, sure!
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2019-12-28T09:22:16Z [df]: does anyone use slime with use-package?  having trouble setting it up so that slime-contribs is set at the right point in the load/setup sequence (specifically, I want a repl to open when I run slime or slime-connect)
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2019-12-28T09:24:01Z beach: [df]: Where are you attempting to put your USE-PACKAGE?
2019-12-28T09:24:31Z beach: [df]: The REPL should get created automatically when you run M-x slime<RET>.
2019-12-28T09:25:05Z [df]: it's in a file that is loaded via .emacs
2019-12-28T09:25:23Z beach: Does Emacs Lisp even have packages?
2019-12-28T09:25:29Z [df]: https://github.com/dangerousben/emacs-config/blob/master/prog-lisp.el
2019-12-28T09:25:33Z [df]: it does now
2019-12-28T09:25:37Z [df]: oh, they're not like CL packages
2019-12-28T09:25:57Z [df]: and use-package is a 3rd-party add-on
2019-12-28T09:26:16Z beach: If you do (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-tramp slime-asdf slime-indentation)) in your .emacs, you should be in business.
2019-12-28T09:26:42Z beach: I think slime-fancy implies the REPL.
2019-12-28T09:26:52Z beach: But all that is from (a very bad) memory.
2019-12-28T09:27:01Z [df]: yes I believe so too (in fact I think it implies most things)
2019-12-28T09:28:22Z [df]: the problem is I want slime to load lazily
2019-12-28T09:28:41Z [df]: but it seems like when that happens the first thing it does is reset slime-contrib to nil
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2019-12-28T09:34:10Z [df]: should probably have clarified that this was more of an emacs question than a cl question but I figured this would be the place to come for slime expertise
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2019-12-28T11:19:16Z ebrasca: [df]: I use emacs use-package
2019-12-28T11:21:34Z ebrasca: [df]: Here my slime config with emacs use-package : http://ix.io/25H5/lisp
2019-12-28T11:23:06Z ebrasca: [df]: Does it help you?
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2019-12-28T12:39:37Z quakenet: !help
2019-12-28T12:39:41Z quakenet: .help
2019-12-28T12:41:12Z ebrasca: .help
2019-12-28T12:41:31Z ebrasca: quakenet: /help
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2019-12-28T12:41:51Z quakenet: .ping *
2019-12-28T12:42:19Z ebrasca: quakenet: .pong *
2019-12-28T12:42:44Z quakenet: !scan ebrasca vergin
2019-12-28T12:46:27Z quakenet: .ping *
2019-12-28T12:48:26Z ebrasca: quakenet: It is with / ...
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2019-12-28T13:46:10Z mfiano: How can I check if an arbitrary symbol denotes a known type or not, suitable for use as the second argument of TYPEP?
2019-12-28T13:46:53Z beach: You can't, at least not in a portable way.
2019-12-28T13:46:59Z mfiano: Thanks
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2019-12-28T14:30:21Z Shinmera: mfiano: (definitions:definition-p symbol 'definitions:type)
2019-12-28T14:30:32Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell mfiano look up definitions definition-p
2019-12-28T14:30:32Z Colleen: mfiano: "definition-p" not found in DEFINITIONS.
2019-12-28T14:30:35Z Shinmera: ech
2019-12-28T14:30:40Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell mfiano look up definitions
2019-12-28T14:30:40Z Colleen: mfiano: About definitions https://shinmera.github.io/definitions#about_definitions
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2019-12-28T15:00:04Z pjb: mfiano: moreover, for some implementations, such sbcl, all symbols denote a type (possibly not yet known)/
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2019-12-28T15:45:01Z boeg: Other than p/-p for predicate, are there any other such conventions one should be aware of?
2019-12-28T15:45:43Z beach: boeg: f
2019-12-28T15:45:53Z beach: boeg: remf, setf,
2019-12-28T15:46:51Z boeg: beach: what is that ... called?
2019-12-28T15:47:29Z beach: Not sure there is a name for it.  It is used for functions that modify some place.
2019-12-28T15:47:46Z beach: Er, operators, not functions.
2019-12-28T15:48:00Z boeg: alright, so modify instead of returning, then use the f convention?
2019-12-28T15:48:33Z beach: Not quite.  It is more complicated than that.
2019-12-28T15:48:39Z boeg: alright
2019-12-28T15:48:46Z beach: I am afraid I have no pre-cooked definition.
2019-12-28T15:48:50Z boeg: sure
2019-12-28T15:48:51Z boeg: no problem
2019-12-28T15:49:01Z beach: Others may be able to help.
2019-12-28T15:50:15Z boeg: now i'm at least aware of it, that is good, thanks
2019-12-28T15:50:22Z beach: Sure.
2019-12-28T15:50:31Z boeg: is there also a convention with ! ?
2019-12-28T15:50:37Z boeg: as in "bang"/"!"?
2019-12-28T15:50:50Z boeg: I overheard that in a podcast, but with no example
2019-12-28T15:50:55Z boeg: cant find anything about it
2019-12-28T15:51:00Z beach: That's a Scheme convention.
2019-12-28T15:51:14Z boeg: oh, okay, think it was said it was a "lisp" convention
2019-12-28T15:51:21Z boeg: but okay
2019-12-28T15:51:21Z beach: I don't think they mean the same anyway.
2019-12-28T15:51:43Z beach: The "f" convention seems to be used with macros and special operators that take a "place".
2019-12-28T15:52:04Z boeg: what do you mean with "take a place"?
2019-12-28T15:52:06Z beach: Whereas the Scheme convention is used for functions that alter data.
2019-12-28T15:52:27Z beach: I mean that one argument is a place, so it is not evaluated.
2019-12-28T15:52:34Z beach: See "place" in the glossary.
2019-12-28T15:52:52Z galdor: '!' is for mutating functions in Scheme
2019-12-28T15:53:07Z boeg: ah
2019-12-28T15:53:22Z boeg: galdor: yes that is what I heard, though with "lisp" not "scheme" specifically
2019-12-28T15:53:28Z boeg: beach: makes sense, thanks
2019-12-28T15:53:35Z beach: Sure.
2019-12-28T15:53:41Z galdor: some CL functions use a 'n' prefix for functions which destruct some arguments (NREVERSE, etc)
2019-12-28T15:53:54Z beach: Ah, yes, forgot about that one.
2019-12-28T15:53:58Z boeg: ah, thats right
2019-12-28T15:54:12Z beach: Also the distinction between "remove" and "delete".
2019-12-28T15:54:22Z beach: The latter being destructive.
2019-12-28T15:55:08Z galdor: I'd love to know why there's DELETE and not NREMOVE
2019-12-28T15:55:16Z boeg: ah
2019-12-28T15:55:22Z beach: Hysterical reasons. :)
2019-12-28T15:55:23Z galdor: I guess some lisp dialects at the time had DELETE
2019-12-28T15:56:02Z beach: You can check the Maclisp manual.  My recollection is that it wasn't particularly regular in its naming conventions.
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2019-12-28T15:57:28Z galdor: too bad the standard never evolved
2019-12-28T15:57:39Z beach: Aww, not again!
2019-12-28T15:58:19Z galdor: the argument still works ^^
2019-12-28T15:58:22Z _death: there are more conventions.. e.g., using full words, do-/with-/def/define-/make-/<type>-<op/prop>, earmuffs, etc.
2019-12-28T15:59:16Z beach: Indeed.
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2019-12-28T18:41:51Z markasoftware: My code loads fine but will not compile. I've been playing around with eval-when but can't get things to quite work. Are there any good guides for how to work with lisp compilers apart from CLHS?
2019-12-28T18:43:33Z antoszka: markasoftware: would probably be easier if you actually pasted code and error plus told us which Lisp you're running it on.
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2019-12-28T18:44:02Z markasoftware: ok, i'll try to make a minimal example
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2019-12-28T18:45:35Z antoszka: Great. Agree the load-time/compile-time subtleties are a little tricky and their behaviour can vary across implementations.
2019-12-28T18:47:22Z markasoftware: https://hastebin.com/raw/wazikixeci
2019-12-28T18:47:52Z markasoftware: fails in SBCL and clisp
2019-12-28T18:48:25Z markasoftware: *shadow-these* is apparently not defined/bound. I need it both at compile time and runtime
2019-12-28T18:49:02Z markasoftware: (I use it for more than just (export) in my real code)
2019-12-28T18:49:51Z antoszka: lookin
2019-12-28T18:51:43Z markasoftware: well, actually this example fails at load time as well, not just compile. But it works at load time if you remove the eval-when
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2019-12-28T19:03:45Z antoszka: markasoftware: ok, so when you create *shadow-these*, you change to :my-pkg
2019-12-28T19:04:03Z antoszka: markasoftware: then you're back in :cl, so you don't see *shadow-these*
2019-12-28T19:04:23Z markasoftware: oh crap, the in-package only applies within the eval-when?
2019-12-28T19:04:44Z antoszka: oh, sorry, I think I misread the code
2019-12-28T19:04:48Z antoszka: let me think a bit more ;)
2019-12-28T19:04:51Z markasoftware: that actually makes sense
2019-12-28T19:04:52Z markasoftware: i think that's right
2019-12-28T19:04:58Z antoszka: but it could be the problem
2019-12-28T19:05:05Z antoszka: not sure how the reader behaves
2019-12-28T19:05:10Z antoszka: but it's surely a wrong-package issue
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2019-12-28T19:07:07Z markasoftware: hmm, so if I add (in-package :my-pkg) after the eval-when, it compiles, but won't run
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2019-12-28T19:15:42Z antoszka: TBH, I don't think I'm getting the eval-when block to do anything in my little test-case
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2019-12-28T19:19:38Z antoszka: markasoftware: ok, another problem is that shadow shadows the *shadow-these* symbol itself
2019-12-28T19:19:39Z _death: markasoftware: first, the whole eval-when form is READ by the reader.. this means *shadow-these* is interned in the current package (the value of *package*)
2019-12-28T19:19:52Z antoszka: markasoftware: it's not "unfolded"
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2019-12-28T19:21:55Z antoszka: markasoftware: btw, it might not be immediately relevant, but a lot of reader/package gotchas are excellently eplained in this document: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf
2019-12-28T19:22:12Z antoszka: highly recommended reading (must re-read this myself)
2019-12-28T19:23:46Z _death: markasoftware: why do you wrap things in eval-when and not just have a defpackage
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2019-12-28T19:30:25Z markasoftware: _death: *shadow-these* should be in the my-pkg package, which I can't do if I put it before defpackage
2019-12-28T19:30:35Z markasoftware: but if i put it after defpackage i can't use it inside of defpackage
2019-12-28T19:31:09Z _death: markasoftware: let's rewind a bit.. why do you need *shadow-these*
2019-12-28T19:32:21Z markasoftware: in my real code I use the list *shadow-these* quite a lot (and it's not named shadow-these). They are symbols that I treat in a special way when passed in the argument to a certain macro.
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2019-12-28T19:33:27Z markasoftware: essentially, i have a macro, let's call it (expand-normal-functions), and a call like (expand-normal-functions (+ 5 2 (cl:+ 1 2))) should return (quote (+ 5 2 3))
2019-12-28T19:33:30Z _death: markasoftware: ok.. so what's wrong with (defpackage :my-pkg (:use :cl)) (in-package :my-pkg) (defparameter *shadow-these* ...) ...
2019-12-28T19:33:55Z markasoftware: so, it uses the list *shadow-these* to know wthich functions should be evaluated and which should be left alone while walking the tree
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2019-12-28T19:34:59Z markasoftware: _death: because then all the symbols in *shadow-these* are from common-lisp package. Maybe I should just buck up and write my-pkg: before each symbol in *shadow-these*
2019-12-28T19:35:58Z _death: markasoftware: you can pass symbol names to shadow
2019-12-28T19:37:36Z markasoftware: to be clear, if a file has (progn (in-package :some-package) 'some-symbol), that some-symbol will get interned into common-lisp because the reader does the whole progn at once?
2019-12-28T19:38:25Z markasoftware: yes it does
2019-12-28T19:38:39Z _death: first, the reader reads the form.. if the current package is cl-user, then some-symbol will be interned in cl-user
2019-12-28T19:38:46Z _death: then, the form is evaluated
2019-12-28T19:40:24Z _death: in-package will set *package* to the package named "SOME-PACKAGE", and the (cl:quote cl-user::some-symbol) form will evaluate to cl-user::some-symbol
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2019-12-28T19:41:15Z markasoftware: i need the symbols in *shadow-these* to be in the current package...i guess i could mapcar over it and re-intern all the cl symbols into my-pkg
2019-12-28T19:41:23Z markasoftware: after in-package
2019-12-28T19:41:30Z markasoftware: either way, I understand now
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2019-12-28T19:41:47Z markasoftware: My fundamental misunderstanding was thinking that the whole file was read, then the whole file was macroexpanded, then the whole file evaluated, etc
2019-12-28T19:41:53Z markasoftware: now i realize it happens form-by-form
2019-12-28T19:42:48Z markasoftware: I previously thought there were special cases in the reader that looked for in-package statements, but now it makes much more sense
2019-12-28T19:44:02Z _death: in-package basically expands to setq *package* in an eval-when
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2019-12-28T19:51:48Z Lycurgus: anybody know what you have to do to have slime let commands thru to ACL?
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2019-12-28T19:53:12Z Xach: Lycurgus: what is ACL in this context?
2019-12-28T19:53:26Z Lycurgus: allegro common lisp
2019-12-28T19:53:35Z Xach: Lycurgus: what does "let commands thru" mean?
2019-12-28T19:54:20Z Lycurgus: it means that if I run ACL at the command line I can execute it native : commands but not when running slime with ACL
2019-12-28T19:54:32Z Lycurgus: *its native
2019-12-28T19:54:49Z Xach: ah, those repl commands. i don't know, sorry. slime has its own repl commands. what commands do you miss?
2019-12-28T19:55:07Z Xach: I use the slime , commands instead but i don't know if they are all replaced.
2019-12-28T19:55:54Z Lycurgus: well all of em in principle, but yeah will push off till I have immediate need for non slime provided, want cd/pwd right now
2019-12-28T19:56:21Z Xach: I use ,cd for that
2019-12-28T19:56:47Z Xach: never used  ,pwd but i tlooks like it's there
2019-12-28T19:57:02Z clothespin: does anybody know how to get sb-aclrepl working?
2019-12-28T19:57:29Z Xach: clothespin: type (require 'sb-aclrepl). Does not work in slime.
2019-12-28T19:57:35Z Xach: Only directly on the command-line.
2019-12-28T19:57:45Z clothespin: ah i see
2019-12-28T19:58:05Z Xach: I used to use that a lot but I don't use the cli directly any more, it's always through slime or emacs shell mode.
2019-12-28T19:58:28Z Lycurgus: yeah , works dunno how the lisp honors but will know soon enuf
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2019-12-28T21:43:50Z pjb: markasoftware: Just use defpackage: https://termbin.com/73ed
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2019-12-28T21:45:50Z pjb: markasoftware: and with export: https://termbin.com/fizm
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2019-12-28T21:49:45Z rumbler31: I might be overthinking this, but I want to be able to modify parts of a list using setf.  I'm storing coordinates in a list and am looking to do something like (setf "second place of list" value) such that the list is updated in place
2019-12-28T21:50:01Z rumbler31: this function doesn't do what I want, and I'm sure I am misunderstanding lots of things
2019-12-28T21:50:26Z rumbler31: https://pastebin.com/sWJ1bV6y
2019-12-28T21:50:57Z pjb: (let ((list (list 1 2 3 4 5)))  (setf (second list) 42) list) #| --> (1 42 3 4 5) |#
2019-12-28T21:50:58Z rumbler31: directive is a symbol like r222 which will be interpreted as "move the cursor to the right 222 steps"
2019-12-28T21:51:06Z pjb: There's nothing to think about.
2019-12-28T21:51:24Z rumbler31: oh, let me review my code then, I guess I was thinking about it right
2019-12-28T21:51:57Z pjb:  (let ((list (list 1 2 3 4 5)))  (setf (elt list (random 5)) 42) list) #| --> (42 2 3 4 5) |#
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2019-12-28T21:52:50Z rumbler31: well, while I look deeper, my function doesn't actually seem to update the list in question. I get a list of '(0 0) coordinates instead
2019-12-28T21:53:50Z pjb: rumbler31: look at my examples!
2019-12-28T21:54:23Z pjb: rumbler31: also, '(0 0) returns a literal IMMUTABLE list.
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2019-12-28T21:54:35Z pjb: my examples use LIST to build a new mutable list.
2019-12-28T21:55:08Z rumbler31: hmm
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2019-12-28T21:56:00Z rumbler31: so I should be able to call something like (incf place value) where place is bound at runtime to a form like (second list)
2019-12-28T21:56:12Z pjb: No.
2019-12-28T21:56:26Z pjb: But you can write (incf (second list) 3)
2019-12-28T21:56:39Z pjb: or (incf (elt list index) increment)
2019-12-28T21:56:53Z pjb: you can use any accessor function as a place.
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2019-12-28T21:57:10Z pjb: Check in clhs wither it says "Accessor" or "Function".
2019-12-28T21:57:14Z rumbler31: but I can't say (setf place (second list)) (incf place value)
2019-12-28T21:57:14Z pjb: For example
2019-12-28T21:57:17Z pjb: clhs sin
2019-12-28T21:57:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sin_c.htm
2019-12-28T21:57:20Z pjb: says Function.
2019-12-28T21:57:23Z pjb: but
2019-12-28T21:57:26Z pjb: clhs second
2019-12-28T21:57:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_firstc.htm
2019-12-28T21:57:29Z pjb: says Accessor.
2019-12-28T21:57:55Z pjb: rumbler31: you can say it, but the place is the variable place.
2019-12-28T21:58:01Z pjb: places are not first class objects.
2019-12-28T21:58:21Z pjb: But you can make something like this with closures.
2019-12-28T21:58:44Z rumbler31: hmm
2019-12-28T21:58:47Z pjb: See for example & and deref: https://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp
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2019-12-28T22:01:05Z pjb: But if your places are only elements of a list, using (elt list index) as place should be enough.
2019-12-28T22:03:28Z rumbler31: thank you
2019-12-28T22:13:54Z jmercouris: anyone working on a CL LSP?
2019-12-28T22:14:03Z jmercouris: I see steve losh has a call to action on his site
2019-12-28T22:14:06Z jmercouris: has anyone contacted him?
2019-12-28T22:14:36Z jmercouris: https://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/
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2019-12-28T22:19:34Z prumnopytis: jmercouris: I can't see the call to action
2019-12-28T22:21:08Z p_l: jmercouris: I believe some people who attempted it found that LSP doesn't offer enough functionality compared to SWANK
2019-12-28T22:21:16Z jmercouris: most certainly it doesn't
2019-12-28T22:21:26Z p_l: there are SWANK clients for Atom and I think some people are working on one for VSCode
2019-12-28T22:21:27Z jmercouris: but as steve losh hints, one could use SWANK to implement LSP quite simply
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2019-12-28T22:22:17Z jmercouris: at least, probably :-)
2019-12-28T22:24:54Z White_Flame: rumbler31: you initialize PLACE to NIL in your LET clause.  INCF won't be able to work on it since it's not a number.
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2019-12-28T22:25:33Z rumbler31: I set it in the case statement, but i've changed that code and it can be ignored
2019-12-28T22:25:46Z rumbler31: I change to setting an index into elt instead of whatever is in there
2019-12-28T22:26:06Z White_Flame: ok, that's what I was going to suggest
2019-12-28T22:26:23Z rumbler31: https://pastebin.com/ZweryZCK
2019-12-28T22:26:40Z White_Flame: since it's a list, you could also store which cons sell you which to (incf (car cell) increment)
2019-12-28T22:26:55Z White_Flame: (setf cell list) vs (setf cell (cdr list))
2019-12-28T22:27:05Z rumbler31: well, that was what I was trying for initially
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2019-12-28T22:27:14Z White_Flame: I tend to use cons cells as value containers that can be passed around like that
2019-12-28T22:28:10Z rumbler31: but  I don't understand enough to make it work.  I was trying to bind the place to be edited in the case and then make one call to (incf myplace increment)
2019-12-28T22:28:17Z White_Flame: but really, the best way would be to do (list (case direction ...) (case direction ...))
2019-12-28T22:28:27Z White_Flame: and simply build the list with the values in place
2019-12-28T22:29:09Z White_Flame: (well, there's probably lots of "best" ways, but that'd be a way that's direct and concise)
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2019-12-28T22:29:38Z rumbler31: hmm
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2019-12-28T22:30:51Z White_Flame: it is more Lisp style to use expressions inline like that, instead of having tons of SETF everywhere, especially since most forms evaluate to useful values, including things like IF and CASE that tend to be non-expression statements in other languages.
2019-12-28T22:32:19Z rumbler31: I guess I would make the two case statements a little less generic, an otherwise clause for when the place shouldn't be updated
2019-12-28T22:32:48Z White_Flame: the 1st would be case for L & R, 0 otherwise.  The 2nd would be a case for U & D, 0 otherwise
2019-12-28T22:32:55Z rumbler31: right
2019-12-28T22:33:21Z White_Flame: and you can just use count & (- count) for the values instead of looping
2019-12-28T22:34:10Z rumbler31: so next up, this function seems to be storing the cursor position between calls, that is a complete surprise to me
2019-12-28T22:34:12Z rumbler31: https://pastebin.com/R07TFQ7P
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2019-12-28T22:34:28Z White_Flame: that's because of '(0 0)
2019-12-28T22:34:30Z White_Flame: as mentioned aboe
2019-12-28T22:34:31Z rumbler31: I know what closures are but as far as I can tell, I didn't make one
2019-12-28T22:34:43Z White_Flame: that's a literal source code list that you're modifying
2019-12-28T22:34:48Z White_Flame: (list 0 0) would create a new one every time it's called
2019-12-28T22:34:59Z rumbler31: wowww
2019-12-28T22:35:14Z rumbler31: but
2019-12-28T22:35:36Z rumbler31: initial wouldn't be rebound to a new literal '(0 0) on each call?
2019-12-28T22:35:58Z Xach: rumbler31: no
2019-12-28T22:36:06Z Xach: rumbler31: "new literal" is kind of an oxymoron
2019-12-28T22:36:22Z rumbler31: fair enough, it was odd to say,
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2019-12-28T22:37:39Z rumbler31: but, that means that i've made a binding for a literal '(0 0), whose lifetime is uh, indefinite? and is initialized to a literal '(0 0) but since the place now exists, the "re-binding" isn't performed
2019-12-28T22:37:50Z nirved: rumbler31: aoc2019-day-3 ?
2019-12-28T22:37:55Z rumbler31: yup
2019-12-28T22:38:34Z rumbler31: well before I make up my own terms, can someone describe what is going on properly?
2019-12-28T22:39:11Z nirved: 2d coordinates might be better represented as complex numbers
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2019-12-28T22:39:44Z rumbler31: I'm loosely familiar with that math but I'll give it a think
2019-12-28T22:41:00Z rumbler31: so on one hand, it makes sense to me that if I've set something to be a literal that it would be immutable.  but here we have a literal, which tells the compiler to close over this variable since it is being modified or something
2019-12-28T22:41:40Z White_Flame: rumbler31: the source code comes in as text, which is converted to lists of atoms.  QUOTE takes that list and returns it.  There is one instantiation of the list (0 0) that is referred to in the intializer of INITIAL, which is the quoted list object
2019-12-28T22:42:03Z White_Flame: and you're mutating it in that code
2019-12-28T22:42:24Z White_Flame: (technically, I believe it's undefined behavior, but that's the mechanisms that are at play)
2019-12-28T22:43:39Z rumbler31: alright, so what I did shouldn't make any sense, since I'm editing a literal,
2019-12-28T22:43:50Z rumbler31: so hence undefined behavior is undefined
2019-12-28T22:44:04Z White_Flame: yep, literals shouldn't be mutated
2019-12-28T22:44:13Z White_Flame: because of the possibility of effects like this
2019-12-28T22:44:16Z rumbler31: cheers
2019-12-28T22:44:35Z White_Flame: remember, code is data, data is code.  By modifying the data, you're basically modifying the code
2019-12-28T22:44:58Z White_Flame: (or at least modifying the reference material the code is using in its initializer)
2019-12-28T22:45:32Z White_Flame: If you were to use debugging tools of your implementation to print out the source code of your function, I bet you'd see (initial '(<something else>))
2019-12-28T22:45:41Z White_Flame: try (describe 'directives-to-list)
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2019-12-28T22:52:58Z rumbler31: oh well, got the wrong answer anyways
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2019-12-28T22:56:26Z rumbler31: oh, because I am dumb
2019-12-28T22:56:57Z rumbler31: union is not the function I want
2019-12-28T22:59:11Z rumbler31: I think it might be time for a hash table :-X
2019-12-28T23:03:52Z White_Flame: if you're using (x y) lists as the hash table key, make sure to (make-hash-table :test #'equal) so it doesn't go by list object identity
2019-12-28T23:07:01Z rumbler31: righ
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2019-12-29T04:23:45Z markasoftware: is there any rhyme or reason to how much the compiler actually does at compile time? SBCL fails on a file whose only contenst are (make-package :foo) (in-package :foo) because it thinks the foo package doe.sn't exist, but clisp works just fine
2019-12-29T04:25:21Z markasoftware: this behavior seems quite out of line on SBCL's part...
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2019-12-29T04:28:01Z White_Flame: try defpackage instead
2019-12-29T04:28:23Z White_Flame: and it's not the compiler, it's the reader
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2019-12-29T04:30:17Z White_Flame: well, when compiling, the MAKE-PACKAGE isnt' actually executed until runtime, but IN-PACKAGE needs to find the package name at read-time for further symbols to be interned there
2019-12-29T04:30:56Z markasoftware: White_Flame: I thought in-package was evaluated during normal evaluation time
2019-12-29T04:31:20Z White_Flame: (in-package :foo) (func) (in-package :bar) (func)
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2019-12-29T04:31:37Z White_Flame: the difference between foo:func and bar:func need to come from the reader
2019-12-29T04:31:38Z markasoftware: hence why (progn (in-package :other-package) 'foo) returns foo from the original package
2019-12-29T04:32:04Z White_Flame: PROGN at toplevel leaves its contents at toplevel as well
2019-12-29T04:33:37Z White_Flame: and if other-package imports foo from the original package, then you'd see that behavior too
2019-12-29T04:33:51Z markasoftware: you can type this in yourself. It will return cl-user::foo
2019-12-29T04:34:18Z White_Flame: ok yeah, it does delay it until after the progn form
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2019-12-29T04:37:17Z White_Flame: eg, 'x (progn (in-package :foo) 'x) 'x, the first and 2nd will be in CL-USER, the 3rd will be in FOO
2019-12-29T04:37:45Z White_Flame: because the reader reads the entire PROGN form first, before any of its subforms can be evaluated at any stage
2019-12-29T04:38:30Z markasoftware: Which means that in-package only does anything during the evaluation phase of the 2nd statement, before the read of the 3rd statement?
2019-12-29T04:39:04Z White_Flame: yep.  The reader reads 1 toplevel form at a time, so that read-level changes can happen at toplevel between forms
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2019-12-29T04:39:29Z White_Flame: and an entire form is read before anything else can happen to it (well, excepting #.)
2019-12-29T04:39:37Z White_Flame: (and any other reader macro side effects)
2019-12-29T04:39:59Z markasoftware: Which brings me back to my original question: Why does a file containing only the two top-level forms (make-package :foo) (in-package :foo) fail to compile in SBCL?
2019-12-29T04:40:52Z White_Flame: because in-package's compile-time happens before make-package's run-time
2019-12-29T04:41:18Z markasoftware: why in the world does it check whether the package exists at compile time?
2019-12-29T04:41:32Z White_Flame: so that it can change the reader
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2019-12-29T04:41:53Z White_Flame: remember, you're not loading the file, you're only compiling it
2019-12-29T04:42:01Z markasoftware: ah i see
2019-12-29T04:42:04Z White_Flame: so no toplevel forms are executing their runtime yet
2019-12-29T04:42:20Z White_Flame: if you load the file, I suspect it would work
2019-12-29T04:42:25Z markasoftware: So how does clisp not break on this?
2019-12-29T04:42:48Z markasoftware: is it just slightyl smarter and understands the make-package?
2019-12-29T04:42:59Z White_Flame: no clue, maybe it runs make-package at compile-time as well?  yeah, something like that
2019-12-29T04:43:36Z markasoftware: How does defpackage help here? Does SBCL understand defpackage at compile time?
2019-12-29T04:43:54Z White_Flame: there's also a reason that most .asd defs have a separate package.lisp to set things up before any file that uses the package is even touched
2019-12-29T04:44:00Z White_Flame: defpackage is a macro
2019-12-29T04:44:25Z White_Flame: and the spec demands its effect at compile-time as well
2019-12-29T04:45:01Z White_Flame: defpackage is also the idiomatic way of defining packages, unless you're doing purely runtime constructs
2019-12-29T04:45:10Z markasoftware: and it expands into an (eval-when) ... whaaa
2019-12-29T04:45:26Z boeg: I'm currently using net.didierverna.clon and simply have it installed via quicklisp and load it with `:depends-on` in my asd system. Currently I know I can use the "use" function in for example my package definition or use-package in a lisp file to use clon, but I'd rather it with available under the nickname "clon". Is that possible somehow?
2019-12-29T04:46:13Z boeg: was*
2019-12-29T04:46:29Z White_Flame: clhs rename-package
2019-12-29T04:46:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rn_pkg.htm
2019-12-29T04:46:41Z White_Flame: lets you define new nicknames as well
2019-12-29T04:46:56Z White_Flame: or use package local nicknames
2019-12-29T04:47:07Z White_Flame: which is the more modern approach
2019-12-29T04:49:05Z boeg: White_Flame: "or use package local nicknames" - can you be more specific? I don't see it in the manual?
2019-12-29T04:49:17Z White_Flame: it's a newer feature, not part of the spec
2019-12-29T04:49:41Z prumnopytis: Isn't nickname a thing?
2019-12-29T04:49:47Z boeg: ah
2019-12-29T04:49:52Z prumnopytis: Tfw repeating someone two lines above me
2019-12-29T04:50:10Z White_Flame: prumnopytis: yes, but standard nicknames are in the global package space
2019-12-29T04:50:25Z boeg: it seems net.didierverna.clon has a nickname. If it do `(package-nicknames (find-package 'net.didierverna.clon))` I get `("CLON")`. How do I use it?
2019-12-29T04:50:25Z prumnopytis: Hmm
2019-12-29T04:50:27Z White_Flame: package local nicknames are only visible within a package that defined one
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2019-12-29T04:50:49Z White_Flame: boeg: clon:foo ?
2019-12-29T04:51:40Z boeg: hmm
2019-12-29T04:51:41Z boeg: yes
2019-12-29T04:51:47Z White_Flame: prumnopytis:  so package1 can have the PLN utils: refer to foo-utils:, and package2 can have its PLN utils: refer to bar-utils:
2019-12-29T04:51:59Z boeg: I think thought I remembered last I tried that it didnt work so I ended up using the full name
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2019-12-29T04:52:06Z boeg: but seems to work now
2019-12-29T04:52:10Z boeg: White_Flame: thanks
2019-12-29T04:52:15Z White_Flame: np
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2019-12-29T04:58:33Z boeg: White_Flame: Ah, sorry, it doesn't work, I had had it manually defined in the current system, but when starting with an empty system, no, the nickname "clon" is not available
2019-12-29T04:58:57Z boeg: but "net.didierverna.clon" is
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2019-12-29T05:00:00Z White_Flame: looking at the clon code, there's a (nickname-package) call which installs the CLON nicknam
2019-12-29T05:00:29Z White_Flame: its defpackage doesn't include it
2019-12-29T05:01:35Z boeg: yeah, (package-nicknames (find-package 'net.didierverna.clon))` does return  `("CLON")`. But I can't use it?
2019-12-29T05:02:10Z White_Flame: but if your own package does (defpackage ... (:local-nicknames (clon net.didierverna.clon))) then you don't have to change clon's state itself
2019-12-29T05:02:53Z White_Flame: boeg: no idea what you're seeing.  There might be a difference between what your code in files see at load time, vs what you see on the repl
2019-12-29T05:03:04Z White_Flame: because the repl will run later after everything is set up
2019-12-29T05:03:57Z boeg: well, what I mean is, how do I make the nickname available? If you understand. The full name is available but the nickname isn't, so I guess I have to tell asdf to include the nickname?
2019-12-29T05:04:15Z boeg: or sbcl
2019-12-29T05:05:42Z White_Flame: any use of clon: after the nickname is there should work
2019-12-29T05:06:09Z White_Flame: are you saying that package-nicknames on the repl shows clon, but clon: doesn't work at that same repl?
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2019-12-29T05:06:42Z boeg: Admittedly not, I did the package-nicknames in the repl, but am trying to use clon in a file I load into the repl
2019-12-29T05:06:46Z boeg: maybe thats a problem
2019-12-29T05:07:02Z White_Flame: right, that load is apparently happening before the clon nickname is installed
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2019-12-29T05:07:25Z White_Flame: which is a runtime effect, not part of clon's defpackage
2019-12-29T05:07:39Z White_Flame: I'd suggest using the package local nickname
2019-12-29T05:07:57Z White_Flame: clon's runtime installation of a nickname is a hack to get around potential nickname collisions
2019-12-29T05:08:13Z White_Flame: before PLNs became more available
2019-12-29T05:08:48Z boeg: alright
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2019-12-29T05:09:21Z boeg: when you say "i'd suggest using the package local nickname" what exactly do you mean? It sounds like you are saying to use "clon:" but as we have established, it doesn't work
2019-12-29T05:09:45Z White_Flame: "but if your own package does (defpackage ... (:local-nicknames (clon net.didierverna.clon))) then you don't have to change clon's state itself"
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2019-12-29T05:10:17Z boeg: ah, sorry
2019-12-29T05:10:20Z boeg: missed that
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2019-12-29T05:10:41Z White_Flame: if your project is (defpackage :foo ...), and has a PLN, then when you're (in-package :foo), clon: should work even without clon's nickname installed
2019-12-29T05:10:58Z White_Flame: *without clon's global nickname installed
2019-12-29T05:12:13Z boeg: yes, it works, :local-nicknames was exactly what I was after, thank you very much!
2019-12-29T05:12:28Z White_Flame: cool
2019-12-29T05:15:06Z markasoftware: White_Flame: by putting my package definition in a different file than the (in-package) statement, asdf evaluates the packages.lisp file before any of my files that do in-package, which is why I get no error?
2019-12-29T05:16:22Z White_Flame: correct.  The files are compiled & loaded, meaning the toplevel effects will occur before the next file is read
2019-12-29T05:16:43Z White_Flame: *toplevel runtime effects
2019-12-29T05:17:00Z White_Flame: so even make-package should work if you put it in a file before the in-package
2019-12-29T05:17:14Z White_Flame: (and have your file dependency ordering correct)
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2019-12-29T05:53:55Z markasoftware: Why does a file with (make-package :foo) (in-package :foo) (export 'bar) evaluate properly in clisp? My understanding is that, since the package foo does not `use` common-lisp, the shadow function should not be defined.
2019-12-29T05:53:58Z markasoftware: sbcl fails, as I expect it to.
2019-12-29T05:54:15Z markasoftware: s/shadow/export
2019-12-29T05:55:20Z markasoftware: huh, (package-use-list) on my new package shows that it *does*, in fact, use common-lisp, even though i never told it to
2019-12-29T05:56:11Z markasoftware: How can I stop that and explicitly state that my package should not use any package?
2019-12-29T05:57:34Z markasoftware: ahhhh :use has an implementation specific default
2019-12-29T05:57:40Z markasoftware: whyyyyy would that be the spec
2019-12-29T05:58:04Z markasoftware: i have wasted well over an hour today because of that
2019-12-29T05:58:30Z markasoftware: but i guess it led me around to learning about some other things that I didn't know in the debugging process
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2019-12-29T06:20:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-12-29T06:20:50Z beach: markasoftware: The list of default packages that are used is implementation specific
2019-12-29T06:20:56Z beach: clhs defpackage
2019-12-29T06:20:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2019-12-29T06:22:19Z pnp: good morning beach !
2019-12-29T06:22:48Z beach: markasoftware: "If :use is not supplied, it defaults to the same implementation-dependent alue as the :use argument to make-package."
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2019-12-29T06:30:31Z ebrasca: Morning beach!
2019-12-29T06:30:31Z minion: ebrasca, memo from [df]: thanks for the help, turned out my problems was actually a silly embarrassing mistake - I wasn't loading the file that configured slime from my main config
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2019-12-29T08:50:30Z rnmhdn: does lisp otimize
2019-12-29T08:50:43Z prumnopytis: Compiler specific / yes
2019-12-29T08:50:47Z rnmhdn: (+ (complex expression) (complex expression))
2019-12-29T08:51:04Z rnmhdn: so that it would calculate complex expression only once
2019-12-29T08:51:37Z no-defun-allowed: If that expression doesn't produce side effects and isn't too complicated, a compiler could do that.
2019-12-29T08:51:53Z no-defun-allowed: But you probably should rewrite it as (* 2 <complex expression>) yourself.
2019-12-29T08:52:04Z rnmhdn: is there a difference between functional and procedural languages in handling such optimizations?
2019-12-29T08:53:17Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, for "pure" functional languages and languages with lazy evaluation, that kind of optimisation would be easier to apply.
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2019-12-29T08:54:05Z rnmhdn: what procedural languages have lazy evaluation?
2019-12-29T08:54:49Z no-defun-allowed: Probably none, since side effects and lazy evaluation don't mix well.
2019-12-29T08:55:33Z rnmhdn: what common functional languages don't have lazy-evaluation?
2019-12-29T08:55:53Z no-defun-allowed: All except Haskell.
2019-12-29T08:56:14Z prumnopytis: You can make things like laziness / shunt work appropriately into compile time with macros and things in lisp. In lisp you would use lisp's disassembling to look at how fast it is, I guess, rather than translate it into clang's intermediary language and write opt passes on that. I like lisp more.
2019-12-29T08:56:19Z rnmhdn: is haskell pure?
2019-12-29T08:56:19Z no-defun-allowed: (Well, maybe a few others do have lazy evaluation, but I would say it is less common than eager evaluation.)
2019-12-29T08:57:07Z no-defun-allowed: I think so, but it has monad things to do impure stuff. You probably should ask #haskell.
2019-12-29T08:57:29Z rnmhdn: yeah
2019-12-29T08:57:31Z rnmhdn: thank you so much
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2019-12-29T08:59:56Z beach: rnmhdn: Languages don't optimize.  Implementations do.  Common Lisp has many different implementations, and each one has its own compiler that optimizes differently.
2019-12-29T09:00:12Z rnmhdn: I know
2019-12-29T09:00:18Z beach: OK.
2019-12-29T09:00:24Z rnmhdn: by language I mean the expected value of the implementations :D
2019-12-29T09:00:45Z rnmhdn: lol
2019-12-29T09:01:09Z rnmhdn: so for example I'd say it's very highly unlikely that you find a python implementation that does that
2019-12-29T09:01:33Z rnmhdn: but it seems like it's likely that a haskell implementation does it
2019-12-29T09:01:44Z beach: Common Lisp has many more implementations than Python does, though, so there is greater variation in the level of optimization.
2019-12-29T09:02:00Z beach: From simple interpreters to highly optimizing compilers.
2019-12-29T09:03:00Z rnmhdn: do you know any CL implementation that does this?
2019-12-29T09:03:25Z beach: I haven't looked, but I would think SBCL does.
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2019-12-29T09:03:54Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think it does that.
2019-12-29T09:04:00Z beach: Oh, OK
2019-12-29T09:04:53Z ggole: Value numbering would have much the same effect, I think
2019-12-29T09:04:55Z no-defun-allowed: You could, barring side effects (and modifications to the CL package, for +), write a compiler macro as a kind of optimisation pass, but I still think you should prefer to write out (* 2 <that complex expression>) instead.
2019-12-29T09:07:30Z prumnopytis: Sounds like something from a computer algebra system in this case
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2019-12-29T09:16:09Z MichaelRaskin: Like Maxima… (which is written in Common Lisp, and can be interfaced with easily)
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2019-12-29T09:19:38Z pjb: markasoftware: I already told you to use defpackage yesterday!
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2019-12-29T09:20:54Z pjb: rnmhdn: In most cases (complex-expression) has side effects, so it cannot and must not be eliminated.
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2019-12-29T10:48:08Z jmercouris: guten morgen everyone!
2019-12-29T10:51:45Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: talk to Doug about offline code indexing
2019-12-29T10:51:59Z fe[nl]ix: although you might not like the solution the we use
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2019-12-29T12:49:03Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: ok!
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2019-12-29T14:35:16Z sahara3: hola buenos dias!!
2019-12-29T14:36:15Z je4i: Guten Tag!
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2019-12-29T15:59:04Z ckonstanski: Is CLSQL still maintained? It looks like quicklisp hasn't seen an update since 2016. If not, is there another solution for connecting to postgresql that is under active development?
2019-12-29T16:01:52Z p_l: ckonstanski: postgresql has good support in form of Postmodern library
2019-12-29T16:02:59Z Xach: ckonstanski: postmodern is really good for postgres.
2019-12-29T16:06:05Z ckonstanski: My immediate concern is that postgresql-12 wants to use SHA256 instead of MD5 for password encryption and CLSQL doesn't support it. The bigger picture is bitrot in general. Is postmodern an active project?
2019-12-29T16:06:21Z Xach: ckonstanski: postmodern is active.
2019-12-29T16:06:32Z ckonstanski: Neat!
2019-12-29T16:06:38Z Xach: I don't know if it supports the new password scheme but it could be added
2019-12-29T16:07:38Z ckonstanski: That's the crucial ingredient. Someone to answer feature requests. I'll try it.
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2019-12-29T16:13:44Z Xach: I am thinking of publishing my standalone SHA1/256/512 code as a library. ironclad does it, but it is part of a large suite of tools and it's hard to separate out smaller parts.
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2019-12-29T16:16:39Z sindan: Is there any reason for the latest release of SBCL jumping straight to 2.0 from the very boring and normal-looking progression for years of version numbers up to 1.5.9?
2019-12-29T16:17:43Z Xach: sindan: 20th anniversary
2019-12-29T16:18:01Z sindan: ohh :)
2019-12-29T16:18:26Z sindan: well then, happy anniversary
2019-12-29T16:18:58Z Xach: very happy!
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2019-12-29T17:02:23Z roliacole: hi
2019-12-29T17:02:36Z roliacole: how can i install clisp,sbcl from gnuemacs
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2019-12-29T17:08:16Z eeeeeta: how secure is ironclad?
2019-12-29T17:08:45Z roliacole: ironclad is fine
2019-12-29T17:08:47Z eeeeeta: awesome-cl says it's not really that secure at all, but I'm wondering whether anyone has more information
2019-12-29T17:09:02Z eeeeeta: like, has it ever been audited or whatever
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2019-12-29T17:09:34Z MichaelRaskin: I do not think think Ironclad is constant-time
2019-12-29T17:10:14Z roliacole: what's wrong with using openssl ?
2019-12-29T17:10:23Z roliacole: just use openssl
2019-12-29T17:13:00Z MichaelRaskin: Heartbleed is very much related to OpenSSL being written in a memory unsafe language
2019-12-29T17:13:21Z MichaelRaskin: But there is CL+SSL library that does FFI to OpenSSL
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2019-12-29T17:20:55Z roliacole: MichaelRaskin: i have a doubt
2019-12-29T17:21:30Z roliacole: i am getting started using clisp , how do i execute clisp file.cl inside emacs easily
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2019-12-29T17:24:29Z _death: did you install quicklisp?
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2019-12-29T17:26:53Z anddam: howdy
2019-12-29T17:27:13Z flip214: Xach: promoting "small" projects leads to  NPM hell
2019-12-29T17:27:17Z beach: Hello anddam.
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2019-12-29T17:32:34Z roliacole: _death: no
2019-12-29T17:33:09Z roliacole: I'd like to add a shortcut to clisp file command using emacs
2019-12-29T17:33:34Z _death: roliacole: you can start by installing quicklisp, and using it to install slime (via quicklisp-slime-helper).. then you can have a read-eval-print loop in slime
2019-12-29T17:34:31Z _death: roliacole: to load a file, you could (load "/path/to/file.cl") .. that doesn't require slime or quicklisp, and I suppose you could run clisp in an emacs shell buffer, but you should check out slime
2019-12-29T17:34:59Z roliacole: repl gives the wrong output , for example format (+ 3 4 ) is right but (+3 4 ) is the wrong program.
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2019-12-29T17:36:02Z beach: Am I the only one who doesn't understand what roliacole's problem is?
2019-12-29T17:36:09Z roliacole: ok how do i install quicklisp
2019-12-29T17:36:43Z _death: roliacole: in Lisp "+3" is a valid symbol name
2019-12-29T17:37:03Z beach: roliacole: Are you saying that you would like for (+3 4) to return 7?
2019-12-29T17:37:03Z _death: roliacole: you can follow the instructions on the site
2019-12-29T17:37:04Z roliacole: i don't know much lisp at this point as you see i have difficulty setting up lisp
2019-12-29T17:37:21Z roliacole: which site exactly
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2019-12-29T17:37:30Z _death: roliacole: do you know how to search the internet
2019-12-29T17:37:46Z roliacole: yes
2019-12-29T17:38:01Z _death: roliacole: that skill could come in handy, you should practice it
2019-12-29T17:39:32Z roliacole: $ sbcl --eval '(ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)' --quit
2019-12-29T17:39:43Z roliacole: but it is like repl
2019-12-29T17:40:45Z beach: roliacole: What was your problem with (+3 4)?
2019-12-29T17:41:03Z beach: roliacole: Like, where did you see it?
2019-12-29T17:41:09Z roliacole: that shouldn't print
2019-12-29T17:41:35Z beach: And are you saying that it did anyway?
2019-12-29T17:41:49Z roliacole: i don't want it to print, as in actual programs we don't use that , as it's output is null
2019-12-29T17:42:07Z beach is completely lost.
2019-12-29T17:42:26Z beach: roliacole: I suspect you are confused.
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2019-12-29T17:43:13Z beach: roliacole: No, (+3 4) is not a valid form, unless you happen to have an operator named +3.
2019-12-29T17:43:25Z beach: So I am wondering where you saw it.
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2019-12-29T17:48:33Z p_l: eeeeeta: Ironclad AFAIK implements the algorithm well, but a) it has limited set of algorithms b) it's not proofed against attacks, so bad for on-line use (no constant time operations, for example)
2019-12-29T17:49:06Z pnp: roliacole, the space is used to split tokens
2019-12-29T17:51:21Z boeg: Can anyone recommend some articles/books about handler errors/conditions in common lisp? I personally like "just" returning values, and I've the beyond exceptions in practical common lisp, but I still feel like I need a better idea of when to do what and how to and so on, so I was just  thinking there might be a great article or chapter of a book or something on this somewhere
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2019-12-29T17:51:41Z boeg: handling*
2019-12-29T17:53:04Z roliacole: i installed slime beach
2019-12-29T17:53:05Z amnesia_: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/error_handling.html
2019-12-29T17:53:38Z boeg: amnesia_: Thanks, I did actually also read that earlier today
2019-12-29T17:53:45Z roliacole: it is far better than using portacle as i learnt something beach
2019-12-29T17:53:55Z boeg: I felt like it explained how to do things, but not as much like a pattern or approach to use
2019-12-29T17:54:30Z boeg: like should I use return values 80% of the times and conditions 20% or something like that. Like conditions only when it really makes sense because it needs something else return values can't
2019-12-29T17:55:22Z amnesia_: boeg: ok
2019-12-29T17:55:53Z amnesia_: the ansi common lisp explain this more deeply
2019-12-29T17:55:59Z _death: boeg: you can read Pitman's papers, e.g. "Exceptional Situations in Lisp" or "Condition Handling in the Lisp Language Family".. http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/index.html
2019-12-29T17:56:21Z boeg: amnesia_: I'll check that out, haven't read it yet
2019-12-29T17:56:25Z boeg: _death: thanks
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2019-12-29T17:57:03Z amnesia_: go to handler erros
2019-12-29T17:57:07Z amnesia_: https://github.com/clojurians-org/lisp-ebook/blob/master/ANSI%20Common%20LISP.pdf
2019-12-29T17:57:08Z roliacole: https://lisp-lang.org/learn/getting-started/ i just copied and pasted everything i still don't understand what i did
2019-12-29T17:57:41Z boeg: amnesia_: thanks
2019-12-29T17:59:49Z amnesia_: https://ix.io/361
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2019-12-29T18:01:09Z amnesia_ 
2019-12-29T18:02:30Z roliacole: beach: if i don't have slime and quicklisp say- coming back to first principles then what will i do
2019-12-29T18:02:47Z roliacole: how will i execute sbcl file or something like that
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2019-12-29T18:08:19Z amnesia_: roliacole: frist your need to clone quicklisp
2019-12-29T18:08:34Z roliacole: wat
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2019-12-29T18:09:16Z amnesia_: roliacole: you have quicklisp in your machine ?
2019-12-29T18:09:20Z roliacole: jyes
2019-12-29T18:09:24Z amnesia_: oh
2019-12-29T18:09:54Z roliacole: i pasted everywthing from here https://lisp-lang.org/learn/getting-started/
2019-12-29T18:10:53Z roliacole: beach: _death but we don't write code inside repl?
2019-12-29T18:10:53Z amnesia_: so, whats the problem ?
2019-12-29T18:10:58Z roliacole: we write code in a file
2019-12-29T18:11:54Z amnesia_: are you need to run the code ?
2019-12-29T18:12:03Z roliacole: of course
2019-12-29T18:12:21Z roliacole: if repl i can't "save " the code
2019-12-29T18:12:26Z roliacole: so naturally repl is useless
2019-12-29T18:12:28Z amnesia_: so do sbcl --script /path/to/file.lisp
2019-12-29T18:12:34Z _death: you can visit a (possibly new) lisp file in emacs, or use the slime scratch buffer, and evaluate forms using C-M-x.. you can load the file using C-c C-l RET
2019-12-29T18:12:52Z roliacole: i know amnesia_ but i can't do that every time it is tiresome
2019-12-29T18:13:01Z amnesia_: well, you can do sbcl and * (load "path/to/file.lisp")
2019-12-29T18:13:06Z amnesia_: and you have the repl
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2019-12-29T18:14:16Z _death: you can compile and load a file using C-c C-k, etc.  for more information you can check out the slime manual
2019-12-29T18:14:23Z roliacole: how do i open slime scratch buffer
2019-12-29T18:15:00Z _death: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Scratch-Buffer.html#Scratch-Buffer
2019-12-29T18:15:50Z roliacole: what is so superior about slime idk
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2019-12-29T18:16:10Z _death: typicall you can use slime selector to switch to the scratch buffer https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/slime_002dselector.html#slime_002dselector
2019-12-29T18:17:08Z _death: of course you don't know.. did you expect to, in the few moments you spent on it?
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2019-12-29T18:19:13Z roliacole: does it also have autocompletion like python's notebooks
2019-12-29T18:19:45Z jackdaniel: roliacole: even better, there is cl-jupyter, so you may use it with notebooks yourself
2019-12-29T18:19:47Z roliacole: there is no way it like rival those notebooks - they are the most superior
2019-12-29T18:20:19Z Xach: troliacole
2019-12-29T18:20:20Z _death goes to read something
2019-12-29T18:20:31Z roliacole: hey xach
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2019-12-29T18:20:35Z roliacole: i am not troll
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2019-12-29T18:22:30Z Xach: roliacole: you do a good impersonation of one though.
2019-12-29T18:23:17Z roliacole: but repl of slime doesn't have "cells" like notebooks
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2019-12-29T18:23:24Z Xach: the symptoms are declaring things that you have no understanding of or experience with bad, inferior, etc.
2019-12-29T18:24:18Z Xach: now, these things may be bad, inferior, useless, etc. but the key factor is the clue-free declaration of such
2019-12-29T18:24:59Z eeeeeta: <roliacole> so naturally repl is useless
2019-12-29T18:25:19Z eeeeeta hands roliacole a toolkit containing copy, paste, and sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die
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2019-12-29T18:28:00Z roliacole: Xach: i am upset lisp is being used nowhere
2019-12-29T18:28:23Z roliacole: how many proper lisp users like CL,scheme are there in the world?
2019-12-29T18:28:56Z jackdaniel: roliacole: please move it to #lispcafe (or nowhere), it is offtopic on this channel
2019-12-29T18:29:28Z roliacole: Xach: join me on #lispcafe
2019-12-29T18:29:29Z amnesia_: the most, i guess
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2019-12-29T18:56:16Z roliacole: Xach: sbcl CL or gambit/stalin scheme, which is more optimized
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2019-12-29T18:57:31Z jackdaniel: roliacole: still offtopic, please move to the abovementioned place
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2019-12-29T19:00:34Z no-defun-allowed: "how many proper lisp users like CL,scheme are there in the world?" Probably at least two.
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2019-12-29T19:00:49Z jackdaniel: ditto
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2019-12-29T19:02:01Z no-defun-allowed: As for upper bounds, probably no more than seven billion-ish unless aliens are using Lisp, and of course they would.
2019-12-29T19:02:15Z no-defun-allowed: But really, I'm not sure and that sounds hard to estimate.
2019-12-29T19:02:34Z eeeeeta: jeez, you people, don't you know about the flying sphere with lisp aliens inside
2019-12-29T19:02:51Z eeeeeta: as well as their entire fleet of lisp-powered alien ships >_<
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2019-12-29T19:03:42Z eeeeeta: on a serious note, ITA Software is a pretty well-known CL user
2019-12-29T19:04:00Z eeeeeta: there are more testimonials about the place on lispworks or lisp-lang if you look
2019-12-29T19:04:23Z no-defun-allowed: I would say that there's about 1% and 10% the users as there are of Python (ignoring that one can be a Python and a Lisp hacker for a short period of time before one becomes a weenie), so 80 to 800 thousand-ish.
2019-12-29T19:04:43Z jackdaniel: I mean it, please guys move this popoularity contest to #lispcafe, it is neither technical nor really related to the programming language itself
2019-12-29T19:05:09Z jackdaniel: roliacole did listen to my request, so I see no reason to prolong it here
2019-12-29T19:05:22Z eeeeeta: oh sorry jackdaniel, my bad
2019-12-29T19:05:25Z eeeeeta shuts up
2019-12-29T19:05:46Z no-defun-allowed: Right then. Sorry.
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2019-12-29T19:06:40Z jackdaniel: thank you
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2019-12-29T21:18:46Z pjb: roliacole: CL implementations provide you with a REPL, which is a read eval PRINT loop, which is why when you type (+ 3 7), it prints the result 10.
2019-12-29T21:19:14Z roliacole: i know
2019-12-29T21:19:24Z pjb: roliacole: if you don't want it to print, then you must write your own REL: (defun rel () (loop (princ "> ") (finish-output) (eval (read))))   (rel)
2019-12-29T21:19:36Z pjb: roliacole: you didn't seem to know, since you complained earlier that it printed…
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2019-12-29T21:22:41Z roliacole: i am learning emacs config+melpa
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2019-12-29T21:26:22Z roliacole: i have a simple doubt if you don't mind
2019-12-29T21:26:39Z roliacole: how do i count how many characters screen wide is my window
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2019-12-29T21:27:13Z roliacole: because upon maximize the lines fill only half the screen i wish to make the lines column bigger to fill the complete window
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2019-12-30T01:41:55Z bitmapper: no-defun-allowed: summoning the portal is not working
2019-12-30T01:41:59Z bitmapper: :p
2019-12-30T01:43:33Z no-defun-allowed: bitmapper: If you're here in #lisp on IRC to complain about a meme I linked on Twitter on jstpst that's written in ML, you probably should do that somewhere else.
2019-12-30T01:43:48Z bitmapper: nah, i write lisp
2019-12-30T01:44:01Z bitmapper: i've been here for a while
2019-12-30T01:44:29Z no-defun-allowed: Still, not even a Lisp joke, so I wouldn't mention it here.
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2019-12-30T03:58:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-12-30T04:03:01Z ahungry: mornin
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2019-12-30T05:49:55Z LdBeth: Sup
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2019-12-30T08:30:10Z nicola_pav: hi all. I am having an issue with pgloader. I have a csv with fields that I am trying to get into postgres.
2019-12-30T08:30:34Z nicola_pav: some fields are in hex and I need to get them into bytea fields.
2019-12-30T08:32:35Z nicola_pav: any hint please? here is the ctl file https://pastebin.com/nX40ZyXX
2019-12-30T08:32:58Z Shinmera: nicola_pav: asking on the pgloader github is a better idea than here
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2019-12-30T08:53:32Z nicola_pav: Shinmera: thanks - on IRC is faster :(
2019-12-30T08:53:43Z nicola_pav: I will try there as well
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2019-12-30T08:54:11Z Shinmera: This is a channel about the programming language. It's unlikely many here will know anything that would help you.
2019-12-30T08:54:44Z nicola_pav: Shinmera: understood - thanks.
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2019-12-30T10:33:08Z ebrasca: How to deal with calendar events in lisp , like how to know what days are working days and etc?
2019-12-30T10:34:33Z jackdaniel: ebrasca: regarding "working" days it is very dependent on your region, so I doubt there is such a library
2019-12-30T10:34:42Z jackdaniel: for date arithmetic and formatting, there is a library local-time
2019-12-30T10:36:10Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: I need to implement booking api and I don't know how to deal with calendar.
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2019-12-30T10:44:10Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: Thanks!
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2019-12-30T11:03:10Z smokeink: how to do this using Series?   (loop for line = (read-line stream nil :eof) until (eq line :eof) do (princ line)))
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2019-12-30T11:29:08Z ebrasca: smokeink: Here some examples https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/iteration.html
2019-12-30T11:29:43Z smokeink: all those examples scan some list
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2019-12-30T11:32:56Z jackdaniel: smokeink: scan-file  seems to be the way to go
2019-12-30T11:33:06Z jackdaniel: if not, you may take more general approach with scan-fn
2019-12-30T11:33:32Z jackdaniel: and after you "scan" the file you feed it straight to the mapping functions
2019-12-30T11:34:37Z smokeink: tried this https://paste.ofcode.org/BcC9PgTmEiV45RGB58Wigc  no idea why it says "stream is already closed". I thought I limited it to reading only 2 lines
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2019-12-30T11:36:52Z jackdaniel: first of all if you aim at side effects you should use iterate
2019-12-30T11:37:00Z jackdaniel: mapping may get optimized away
2019-12-30T11:39:30Z jackdaniel: as of what's wrong with your code, I don't have spare mental energy to analze that at the moment, sorry :(
2019-12-30T11:39:38Z jackdaniel: analize*
2019-12-30T11:40:12Z jackdaniel: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node351.html#SECTION003422000000000000000 has some examples
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2019-12-30T11:50:51Z smokeink: thanks
2019-12-30T11:53:54Z _death: smokeink: series are lazy, so read-line gets called when the result is printed, after w-i-f-s is exited
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2019-12-30T12:00:29Z _death: smokeink: otherwise the code is still bogus, using the (complement of the) lambda as a predicate for until-if, and otherwise discarding the result of read-line
2019-12-30T12:00:55Z smokeink: 1sec I'll put a working version
2019-12-30T12:03:04Z [df]: ebrasca: apologies for not responding to your assistance before, I'd wandered away from the computer - I got it working in the end and it turned out to be a stupid embarrassing mistake, the .el in question wasn't actually being loaded anywhere else in the config
2019-12-30T12:03:05Z smokeink: https://paste.ofcode.org/H58GgZ59s3gVWNj2WazBUs this one ran ok
2019-12-30T12:03:51Z smokeink: sorry for the bad indentation
2019-12-30T12:04:05Z ebrasca: [df]: It is ok.
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2019-12-30T12:08:40Z _death: smokeink: (collect (subseries (scan-stream s #'read-line) 0 2))
2019-12-30T12:09:44Z smokeink: cool
2019-12-30T12:11:05Z smokeink: can scanning-until-eof also be expressed shorter than in my last paste?
2019-12-30T12:11:32Z _death: scan-stream does this automatically.. (collect (scan-stream s #'read-line)) will read until eof
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2019-12-30T12:13:03Z smokeink: nice
2019-12-30T12:13:32Z smokeink: (iterate ((line (scan-stream s #'read-line))) (princ line) (terpri))
2019-12-30T12:16:09Z smokeink: "(If you know CLOJURE, you will be reminded of its lazy sequences; something SERIES apparently already had in the 1980s.)" - Edi Weitz , Common Lisp Recipes
2019-12-30T12:17:44Z smokeink: So does Clojure has anything important which is missing in Common Lisp? I don't get it yet why so many people learn Clojure instead of CL
2019-12-30T12:18:09Z jackdaniel: it has clear directions how you should do things
2019-12-30T12:18:14Z _death: it has buzz
2019-12-30T12:19:02Z jackdaniel: something CL clearly lacks (advantage and disadvantage at the same time)
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2019-12-30T12:20:33Z galdor: lots of concurrency goodies
2019-12-30T12:21:22Z galdor: the type spec stuff is also interesting
2019-12-30T12:21:29Z galdor: immutability
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2019-12-30T12:32:16Z jackdaniel: you forgot about immortality and a good luck for 4 rounds ;)
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2019-12-30T13:01:46Z smokeink: lol
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2019-12-30T14:20:00Z black_13: i am interested in the possible internals of a lisp implementation specifically an s-expression
2019-12-30T14:20:15Z beach: Sounds good.
2019-12-30T14:20:49Z beach: What do you need to know?
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2019-12-30T14:23:36Z pjb: Not much it seems…
2019-12-30T14:23:47Z beach: Patience pjb.
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2019-12-30T14:26:59Z black_13: beach was that response for me
2019-12-30T14:27:05Z beach: Yes.
2019-12-30T14:27:11Z beach: Go ahead and ask.
2019-12-30T14:28:00Z black_13: what would (a (b c) e f) look like or could look like if implemented in c
2019-12-30T14:28:24Z beach: A sequence of 4 CONS cells.
2019-12-30T14:28:42Z beach: The CAR of the first CONS cell would be a pointer to the symbol A.
2019-12-30T14:28:57Z beach: The CDR of the first CONS cell would be a pointer to the second CONS cell.
2019-12-30T14:29:11Z black_13: and that makes sense
2019-12-30T14:29:12Z pfdietz: Are you asking about cons cells?  They are typically two words (64 bits on a 64 bit machine), aligned on addresses that are zero modulo 16.   They are allocated on a heap without any extra space around them.
2019-12-30T14:29:25Z pfdietz: (in some implementations)
2019-12-30T14:29:26Z beach: black_13: The CAR of the second CONS cell would be a pointer to a sequence of 2 CONS cells.
2019-12-30T14:29:57Z black_13: let me write down something
2019-12-30T14:30:02Z beach: Sure.
2019-12-30T14:30:08Z black_13: sorry i should have been better prepared
2019-12-30T14:30:27Z beach: black_13: But there is no reason to assume that a Common Lisp implementation would be written in C.
2019-12-30T14:30:34Z beach: Some are, but definitely not all.
2019-12-30T14:30:44Z Xach: great, someone broke PROVE and that broke a zillion test systems.
2019-12-30T14:30:51Z pfdietz: Oh dear.
2019-12-30T14:31:18Z black_13: beach I am interested in something like lisp but not lisp
2019-12-30T14:31:38Z black_13: or not-yet
2019-12-30T14:31:48Z beach: black_13: Well, this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so that's the information you will get.
2019-12-30T14:32:15Z black_13: is there a channel where what i am ask about would be topical
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2019-12-30T14:32:42Z beach: There is ##lisp, but I don't participate there.
2019-12-30T14:32:44Z Bike: ##lisp, maybe? "lisp but not" is kind of vague
2019-12-30T14:32:45Z pjb: black_13: even when programming in C, you would use functional abstraction, so you'd build a sexp like (a (b c) e f) with C calls such as: cons(intern("A"),cons(cons(intern("B"),cons(intern("C"),intern("NIL"))),cons(intern("E"),cons(intern("F"),intern("NIL")))))
2019-12-30T14:32:55Z pjb: black_13: how cons and intern are implemented are irrelevant.
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2019-12-30T14:34:06Z pfdietz: black_13: getting Common Lisp to run at top efficiency requires diving below what C provides.   There are tricks that are exploited at the machine level.   There are Common Lisps that transpile to C before using a C compiler to go down to machine code, but they are typically slower.
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2019-12-30T14:35:17Z black_13: pfdietz i wish I had the brains to be at that place you just described
2019-12-30T14:35:22Z pfdietz: There's also a CL implemented in C that compiles to byte code, but it is very much slower (Clisp).
2019-12-30T14:36:11Z pfdietz: And a CL that compiles to JVM byte codes (Armed Bear Common Lisp), but it pays a price for the mismatch between JVM and what would be the best byte code for CL.
2019-12-30T14:37:13Z pfdietz: Xach: it's ok, lots of systems on QL don't even have test suites. :)
2019-12-30T14:38:26Z Xach: Hmm, it looks like PROVE used an internal symbol of CL-ANSI-TEXT, and it was removed/renamed.
2019-12-30T14:38:32Z Xach: prove done broke itself
2019-12-30T14:39:34Z Xach: And it's now read-only on github??
2019-12-30T14:39:54Z black_13: https://pastebin.com/Jjm4jgEC
2019-12-30T14:40:08Z pfdietz: Time to move to fiveam?
2019-12-30T14:40:17Z beach: black_13: metamodular.com/s-expression.pdf
2019-12-30T14:40:27Z pjb: black_13: that's a start.
2019-12-30T14:40:34Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2019-12-29/failure-report.html <-- look how many systems use PROVE
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2019-12-30T14:41:26Z nicola_pav: hi. I am getting the following error when I try to run the function byte-vector-to-bytea
2019-12-30T14:41:26Z black_13: the cell struct would ask as cell pointers and cotainer of ideas
2019-12-30T14:41:31Z nicola_pav: Could not read input: byte-vector-to-bytea called on a string
2019-12-30T14:41:47Z nicola_pav: my input is a csv file
2019-12-30T14:41:57Z black_13: i mean the cell struct would act as cell pointers and cell contents
2019-12-30T14:42:23Z black_13: the following is a legitimate of s-expression "()"
2019-12-30T14:42:47Z pfdietz: That system with poor test coverage I wanted to play with over the weekend?   I wrote tests to cover two files (mostly) and found 9 distinct bugs.  Mothers, don't let your children grow up to write code without tests.
2019-12-30T14:43:00Z pjb: black_13: usually, cons cells are kept of fixed size to ease memory management.  Therefore data that is bigger than a pointer is not stored in the cons cell itself, but on the heap, and pointed to by the cons cells.
2019-12-30T14:43:01Z beach: black_13: In real life, you wouldn't do it that way, because you would have so many things in your union, like symbols, hash tables, arrays, complex numbers, streams, etc.
2019-12-30T14:43:19Z black_13: baby steps bob baby steps
2019-12-30T14:44:03Z black_13: i have looked at simple lisp implementations and even the simple ones use hashtables for look up and ask you said arrays and so on
2019-12-30T14:44:12Z black_13: lets just say strings
2019-12-30T14:44:14Z Xach: nicola_pav: it sounds like it is meant to work on byte vectors, not strings. what are you trying to do?
2019-12-30T14:44:42Z black_13: i get free time and when i get free time i think about lisp internals
2019-12-30T14:44:46Z pfdietz: The pointer nature of cons cell contents is also required to properly implement object identity in lisp.   A cons cell points to a preexisting object, and other references to that object remain valid.
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2019-12-30T14:45:06Z nicola_pav: Xach: I am using pgloader to load data from csv into postgres. one field is hex and needs to get into a bytea field in postgres
2019-12-30T14:45:27Z pfdietz: The only except are numbers and characters, which are not guaranteed to retain object identity (the code can copy them at any time).
2019-12-30T14:45:29Z beach: black_13: You can certainly do it that way, if that's what you are asking.
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2019-12-30T14:45:57Z black_13: i have been trying to "cheat" and look at others implementations
2019-12-30T14:46:03Z nicola_pav: Xach: when not manipulating the fields, the data in the bytea field is converted to a non-hex which is wrong
2019-12-30T14:46:28Z black_13: lots of them and they seem to have done what i am doing ... they found something worked on then moved on ...
2019-12-30T14:46:39Z Xach: nicola_pav: the field is a hex string?
2019-12-30T14:46:56Z nicola_pav: Xach: yes
2019-12-30T14:47:00Z Xach: nicola_pav: i don't know a lot about pgloader but i do know how to convert a hex string to a byte vector
2019-12-30T14:47:38Z nicola_pav: Xach: that could help
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2019-12-30T14:47:56Z beach: black_13: It is hard for me to tell what you really want.  I can tell you that your idea will work, but if you really want to know how it is done, I can't very well tell you that your idea is a good one.
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2019-12-30T14:48:12Z Shinmera: Xach: Prove has been superseded by another thing by the author, but evidently most people did not care to change their libraries for the new thing (or something else).
2019-12-30T14:48:31Z black_13: beach yeah
2019-12-30T14:48:32Z Xach: nicola_pav: well, if i were you, i would write a dummy routine named hex-to-bytea that just returns a byte vector and see if you can plug it into the pgloader pipeline
2019-12-30T14:48:45Z beach: black_13: Yeah what?  Which one is it?
2019-12-30T14:48:45Z Xach: nicola_pav: if that works, then i would make hex-to-bytea do real work.
2019-12-30T14:48:48Z black_13: and this place is not set up for socratic method
2019-12-30T14:49:18Z pjb: black_13: perhaps you'll want to read: Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
2019-12-30T14:49:27Z black_13: i have been there
2019-12-30T14:49:41Z black_13: and read and then come here for clarification
2019-12-30T14:50:16Z black_13: and ... my coworkers are COMPLETELY uninterested in lisp/scheme ... "its old to many parenthesis"
2019-12-30T14:50:41Z beach: black_13: You can look at chapter 15 of metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-specification.pdf for a detailed description of how SICL represents its objects.
2019-12-30T14:50:59Z black_13: oh thats a new one
2019-12-30T14:51:19Z black_13: its like anything i have some side time i read as much as can then i have to get back to the day job
2019-12-30T14:51:22Z beach: black_13: Well, it is called "-specification" because the system does not exist yet.
2019-12-30T14:51:31Z black_13: oh
2019-12-30T14:51:38Z black_13: do you have a link
2019-12-30T14:51:59Z beach: To the code?  Sure, but I don't recommend you try to run the code.
2019-12-30T14:52:15Z beach: minion: Please tell black_13 about SICL.
2019-12-30T14:52:16Z minion: black_13: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
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2019-12-30T14:52:51Z Xach: Shinmera: I wonder what will happen.
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2019-12-30T14:53:01Z pjb: yeah, sicl should have been named fatricl.
2019-12-30T14:53:18Z pjb: or perhaps fatriclfs
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2019-12-30T14:53:55Z pjb: It's not too late, until the first usable version, to change the name…
2019-12-30T14:53:56Z black_13: i found ron rivests s-expression https://github.com/black13/rivest-sexpr/blob/master/sexp.h
2019-12-30T14:54:03Z black_13: but his layout is odd
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2019-12-30T14:56:20Z beach: black_13: It is hard to express the layout of Common Lisp objects in C, because C is a statically typed language, and Common Lisp is not.  Furthermore, we typically use tricks like tagged pointers for efficient immediate objects, also hard to express in C.
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2019-12-30T14:56:39Z beach: black_13: You have to bend C quite a bit to make it express things like Common Lisp objects.
2019-12-30T14:57:00Z black_13: have you seen that bending some place
2019-12-30T14:57:09Z black_13: other than the common lisp code
2019-12-30T14:57:26Z Bike: rivest's s expressions are for data transport over the wire rather than code per se, and also this is from 1997, so yes it's kind of weird
2019-12-30T14:57:37Z Bike: i think this conversation may be more suited for elsewhere
2019-12-30T14:58:09Z p_l: I seem to recall some people here mentioning writing a half-assed lisp when forced to use a different language
2019-12-30T14:58:17Z black_13: whats the harm in talking
2019-12-30T14:58:32Z beach: black_13: This channel is pretty strict about sticking to the topic.
2019-12-30T14:58:58Z black_13: ok do you have a channel that might discuss this
2019-12-30T14:59:09Z Bike: try ##lisp, like we said earlier
2019-12-30T14:59:27Z beach: black_13: If you are truly interested in how Common Lisp objects might be represented in a very simple and regular way, we can take the discussion to #sicl, but I am not interested in trying to express such representations in C.
2019-12-30T14:59:55Z black_13: you dont spend time there
2019-12-30T15:00:06Z black_13: join #sicl
2019-12-30T15:00:23Z pjb: black_13: the point is that if you want to write standard C code to implement C, you will obtain a program that is quite less efficient than if you write assembler.  CL implementations that target native code (ie. assembler), instead of C, are way more efficient.
2019-12-30T15:00:47Z pjb: black_13: or, you can use C in a non-standard, undefined and non-portable way.
2019-12-30T15:00:57Z black_13: s-expr are a good idea
2019-12-30T15:01:24Z black_13: i worked on a program that essentiall had lists of things
2019-12-30T15:01:29Z black_13: But  done badly
2019-12-30T15:02:15Z Bike: i don't spend time in ##lisp because i'm not usually too interested in this kind of conversation, which is true of other people as well, which is why we try to stay on topic.
2019-12-30T15:02:55Z LdBeth: black_13: maybe Kyoto Common Lisp family suits you. One is ECL and another is GCL.
2019-12-30T15:03:12Z pfdietz: ECL is more alive these days.
2019-12-30T15:03:26Z black_13: i had tripped over that one
2019-12-30T15:04:51Z LdBeth: But you can find more materials for reference if you search Kyoto Common Lisp
2019-12-30T15:05:30Z black_13: LdBeth thanks
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2019-12-30T15:26:20Z pjb: black_13: what is your interest? Do you want to write this program in Common Lisp, or do you want to write it in C?  If in CL, why do you care how it's implemented? If in C, you could use libecl, or some other library. In anycase, if in C, the main point would be to use a garbage collector such as BoehmGC.
2019-12-30T15:26:43Z pjb: black_13: if in C, you don't care how it's implemented in C, you just need a good C library.
2019-12-30T15:26:54Z jackdaniel: pjb: not necessarily way more efficient, that depends on the code produced by the implementation and the c compiler
2019-12-30T15:26:56Z pjb: (for dynamic programming).
2019-12-30T15:27:20Z pjb: jackdaniel: sure, you can just ignore all efficiency discussion.
2019-12-30T15:27:53Z pjb: jackdaniel: but for example, for typetags, there's no provision in standard C to store typetags in pointers.  So you would have to have a struct…
2019-12-30T15:27:57Z jackdaniel: i.e unboxed arithmetic operations may be faster (of course it boils down then to comparison between C compiler and CL->assembler compiler)
2019-12-30T15:28:01Z pfdietz: black_13: one example of something that happens in fast lisp implementations:  pointers to cons cells are shifted slightly (by 3 bytes, say), and the car/cdr operations use ptr+offset addressing modes to compensate.  Done properly, this means attemtps to reference non-cons pointers this way causes a fault.  No extra code is needed to check that the
2019-12-30T15:28:02Z pfdietz: pointer is good.
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2019-12-30T15:28:37Z pjb: pfdietz: note that you cannot express this in standard C.
2019-12-30T15:28:49Z pfdietz: Right
2019-12-30T15:29:14Z pjb: basically, you can go pointer -> intptr_t -> pointer, but int -> pointer is undefined/implementation dependant.
2019-12-30T15:29:39Z jackdaniel: but it is often done in practice, and C is basically driven by undefined behavior
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2019-12-30T15:37:49Z pfdietz: If you engage in undefined behavior, C compilers are allowed to take revenge on you.
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2019-12-30T15:39:01Z pfdietz: "Ah, this is undefined.   I can do anything, including declaring this code (and anything necessarily leading to it) is dead."
2019-12-30T15:39:03Z jackdaniel: Star Wars XVIII: revenge of the C
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2019-12-30T15:40:47Z pfdietz: Undefined/implementation defined behavior makes differential compiler testing hard.   Props to the Utah people who addressed this in Csmith.  It's much less of a problem in Common Lisp.
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2019-12-30T15:42:53Z _dx: greetings from Mezzano
2019-12-30T15:44:58Z beach: Hello _dx.
2019-12-30T15:45:29Z pjb: _dx: congrats!
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2019-12-30T15:46:33Z ggole: A surprising amount of languages have undefined behaviour
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2019-12-30T15:46:59Z beach: ggole: "number".  "number" of things.  "amount" of stuff.
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2019-12-30T15:47:44Z pfdietz: Gratuitous undefined behavior.   Why does the evaluation order of arguments to a function call have to be implementation dependent?
2019-12-30T15:47:45Z ggole: Yeah, I wrote "there's a surprising amount of UB" and then edited it rather badly. :)
2019-12-30T15:47:55Z beach: Heh!
2019-12-30T15:49:59Z ggole: It's even more annoying since the workarounds that you would usually employ to avoid different behaviour might mask the bugs you are looking for
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2019-12-30T15:50:49Z beach: Common Lisp has way too much undefined behavior than I would have liked.
2019-12-30T15:50:56Z pjb: Indeed.
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2019-12-30T15:51:52Z pfdietz: beach: I agree.  But at least integers are closer to living up to that name, and arguments are evaluated left to right.
2019-12-30T15:52:07Z beach: There is that, sure.
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2019-12-30T16:22:54Z oni-on-ion: beach, yeah. good thing we dont have to compare it with anything more mainstream, with undefined behavior that is depended on
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2019-12-30T16:26:26Z Bike: how often does arguments being evaluated left to right actually come up?
2019-12-30T16:27:13Z Bike: one time i tried something in clasp that broke that for one thing, but it only mattered to some code xerox loop generated... of course, without loop i couldn't try a lot of other systems or anything
2019-12-30T16:27:19Z Shinmera: passing i++ etc in C is not uncommon
2019-12-30T16:27:35Z beach: oni-on-ion: I think we are saved by our culture.  We don't have a history of exploiting undefined behavior for extreme performance purposes the way C compiler writers do.
2019-12-30T16:27:40Z Bike: in lisp, i meant
2019-12-30T16:27:48Z Bike: c/c++ evaluation order gets kind of weird, for sure
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2019-12-30T16:28:53Z Shinmera: Bike: I'm just saying people do it even when there's actual danger :)
2019-12-30T16:28:54Z Bike: but i don't know, i don't see people writing (foo (incf i) (incf i)) much, i guess
2019-12-30T16:29:09Z oni-on-ion: beach, that is true. reading wiki.c2.com the other day shone a nice light on the situation. (especially when also compared to the community of what i am otherwise accustomed)
2019-12-30T16:30:14Z Shinmera: Bike: I assume the most common cause would be in functions that are implicitly side-effecting. Eg you call some other thing for a value that happens to side-effect.
2019-12-30T16:30:39Z Bike: mm. probably.
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2019-12-30T16:31:02Z Bike: i do write that on occasion, but it's not like using a let instead to force an order would be too burdensome
2019-12-30T16:31:10Z Bike: usually with a values call, i think...
2019-12-30T16:32:54Z Shinmera: Bike: In any case I'm not convinced that the gains in performance from argument reordering are worth the cost of mental overhead of having to think about the possibility of reordering.
2019-12-30T16:33:24Z Shinmera: In fact I'm not convinced that there's much gain at all from reordering.
2019-12-30T16:33:47Z pfdietz: I am sure it's not worth it.
2019-12-30T16:34:10Z mearth: Is asdf still the best way to organize a small sbcl project in 2019?
2019-12-30T16:34:16Z pfdietz: It might have made some sort of sense when C compilers were running in 64K address spaces on PDP-11s.
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2019-12-30T16:35:07Z pfdietz: But now?  It would mean the compiler could not optimize code that had been arranged to be without the nondeterminism.  Not a very good compiler, in that case.
2019-12-30T16:35:11Z beach: mearth: Yes.
2019-12-30T16:35:25Z mearth: beach: thanks
2019-12-30T16:35:26Z oni-on-ion: mearth, there is quickproject.
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2019-12-30T16:35:45Z Bike: mm, probably not. i wonder about some magical system where doing it in parallel could make sense, but that's probably way too fine grained
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2019-12-30T16:52:23Z pfdietz: Which is the recommended protobuf system for CL:  protobuf, or cl-protobufs?
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2019-12-30T16:59:46Z eeeeeta: pfdietz: I managed to get https://github.com/brown/protobuf working after some playing around with it for my osmpbf library
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2019-12-30T17:00:27Z eeeeeta: although I didn't bother with the asdf integration; I just compiled the protoc plugin and used the generated code
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2019-12-30T19:26:48Z markasoftware: Is there any way to read a string from a stream until a certain character or set of characters, rather than (read-line)? Mainly, I want to always read until \r\n (CRLF), not some implementation-defined newline which may just be \n on unix
2019-12-30T19:28:02Z markasoftware: and if there is not such a function, is the best performance to implement it myself to make a string and append to it inside of a (read-char) loop?
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2019-12-30T19:34:50Z galdor: you can write your own stream with an internal buffer
2019-12-30T19:35:12Z galdor: with trivial-gray-streams it's not incredibly hard
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2019-12-30T19:36:54Z caoliver: 2.0!
2019-12-30T19:38:04Z pjb: [-0p[ol;./
2019-12-30T19:38:04Z pjb: -p=[];'
2019-12-30T19:38:24Z pjb: oops.
2019-12-30T19:38:28Z caoliver: Wonder if it will mandate reinstalling slime.
2019-12-30T19:38:41Z caoliver knows it will need rebuilding maxima.
2019-12-30T19:38:47Z pjb: markasoftware: CR and LF are codes, not characters.  So to read them, you need to read a binary stream.
2019-12-30T19:39:06Z pjb: There's no read-line for binary stream.
2019-12-30T19:40:17Z pjb: markasoftware: there's com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii:read-ascii-line
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2019-12-30T19:57:07Z caoliver: Slime and Maxima still work.  Upgrade done.
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2019-12-30T20:19:09Z markasoftware: pjb: Are streams and binary streams the same, you just have to only use *-byte functions for binary ones?
2019-12-30T20:19:48Z markasoftware: I guess I should say, the only difference between binary and non-binary streams are their contents?
2019-12-30T20:22:09Z _death: markasoftware: flexi-streams provide an :eol-style parameter
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2019-12-30T20:23:16Z markasoftware: flexi-streams provides functions for dealing with binary streams, but I don't need to actually create new "binary streams", right? I can still use *standard-output*, etc?
2019-12-30T20:24:29Z _death: markasoftware: you need to wrap it in a flexi-stream
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2019-12-30T20:33:12Z markasoftware: thanks!
2019-12-30T20:39:22Z _death: the clhs page for *standard-output* and friends doesn't state that they are character streams, but maybe it's stated elsewhere.. that read-char etc. have these as defaults is a strong indicator.. but they could in theory be bivalent streams
2019-12-30T20:41:38Z markasoftware: I'm actually using a usocket stream, which is certainly binary
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2019-12-30T22:59:20Z galdor: regarding package local nicknames, is there a way to use them when playing around in the REPL ? it's nice when you are in a package which happens to use another package with a local nickname
2019-12-30T22:59:39Z galdor: but if you are in :CL-USER, it does not help much, you end up having to type the long package names
2019-12-30T23:01:03Z LdBeth: Usually I just switch to a new package other than CL-USER then use-package what I need to play with
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2019-12-30T23:05:05Z Shinmera: galdor: there is a protocol to manage local nicknames besides defpackage. http://sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Package_002dLocal-Nicknames
2019-12-30T23:07:12Z galdor: it still very verbose, I really do not want to type sb-ext:add-package-local-nickname for each package I'm going to use interactively
2019-12-30T23:07:37Z galdor: I guess I could write some code to make it easier and put it in $HOME/.sbclrc
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2019-12-30T23:18:04Z Shinmera: could define a slime repl command, I suppose. (the , prefixed stuff)
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2019-12-30T23:27:25Z selfsymmetric-mu: Hello! How can I rewrite the following without `eval`?
2019-12-30T23:27:25Z selfsymmetric-mu: https://gist.github.com/matthew-piziak/8b8f5667c0318791e7c89bb31408a36c
2019-12-30T23:28:34Z selfsymmetric-mu: I have a number of bindings to condition-action pairs. I want to dump them into one big cond. The form above works fine but I feel like `eval` is unnecessary. Any advice?
2019-12-30T23:28:50Z no-defun-allowed: You probably cannot if you're working with that kind of data.
2019-12-30T23:29:15Z selfsymmetric-mu: Oh, no kidding? Hmm.
2019-12-30T23:29:36Z no-defun-allowed: However, if you changed each pair to a pair of two functions, you could call the first, then call the second if the first returns true.
2019-12-30T23:30:06Z no-defun-allowed: eg (defvar *action1* (cons (lambda () nil) (lambda () (print "one"))))
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2019-12-30T23:32:46Z selfsymmetric-mu: And then how would I call it?
2019-12-30T23:33:24Z selfsymmetric-mu: I could construct `(cond ((car *action1*) (cdr *action1*)))` but then I'd still need to eval it.
2019-12-30T23:34:21Z selfsymmetric-mu: A more general question would be, what is the correct way to call some code you've constructed through quasiquotation.
2019-12-30T23:35:02Z no-defun-allowed: Then, assuming you had a list of those, I would do something like (loop for (test . result) in alist when (funcall test) return (funcall result))
2019-12-30T23:35:19Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps I don't get the context, but I would avoid generating and storing code like that usually.
2019-12-30T23:36:01Z selfsymmetric-mu: What would be your style? Just keep them all inline as a big `cond` block?
2019-12-30T23:36:20Z selfsymmetric-mu: I kind of like the idea of a predicate-action pair.
2019-12-30T23:36:57Z selfsymmetric-mu: And the reason I'm using `cond` is because I want it to terminate on the first success.
2019-12-30T23:37:08Z no-defun-allowed: I would use functions like those.
2019-12-30T23:37:36Z _death: if you just want the forms to be defined separately, you can use generic functions.. they are kind of an extensible cond
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2019-12-30T23:38:22Z no-defun-allowed: Then that LOOP form I provided does terminate on the first success (note the RETURN symbol).
2019-12-30T23:38:37Z selfsymmetric-mu: Aha! Yes I misread, thank you no-defun-allowed.
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2019-12-30T23:39:45Z selfsymmetric-mu: If I were to instead rewrite these actions as `(defun action1 () (if predicate-p (do-something)))`, and I have a list of bindings of that form, how can I get them to short-circuit?
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2019-12-30T23:41:21Z selfsymmetric-mu: funcall is less eval, yes?
2019-12-30T23:41:23Z _death: if they return non-nil in case they do something, (some #'funcall actions)
2019-12-30T23:41:27Z selfsymmetric-mu: ahem, less evil than eval
2019-12-30T23:41:34Z selfsymmetric-mu: _death: Perfect!
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2019-12-30T23:42:03Z selfsymmetric-mu: That's a good one.
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2019-12-31T00:01:20Z selfsymmetric-mu: It works great. Thanks again!
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2019-12-31T00:17:02Z pjb: selfsymmetric-mu: https://gist.github.com/matthew-piziak/8b8f5667c0318791e7c89bb31408a36c#gistcomment-3123854
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2019-12-31T00:18:01Z pjb: selfsymmetric-mu: the questionis rather why you use quasiquote instead of lambda.
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2019-12-31T00:49:08Z selfsymmetric-mu: Thank you! I ended up using (some #'funcall actions) and moved the predicates into the functions as simple if forms.
2019-12-31T00:50:57Z pjb: Yes. The thing is to use functions instead of forms that you need to compile at run-time. Functions can be compiled earlier.
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2019-12-31T02:33:04Z rumbler31: anyone do the advent of code this year?
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2019-12-31T02:59:22Z Josh_2: rumbler31: what is that?
2019-12-31T03:01:58Z smokeink: https://adventofcode.com
2019-12-31T03:03:40Z Josh_2: Well gonna be a bit late for that
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2019-12-31T03:27:26Z rumbler31: no reason you can't start now. 50 free problems
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2019-12-31T03:30:21Z rumbler31: I'm stuck on day 3 part 2.  I know how to get the answer but apparently I don't know how to code for the answer
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2019-12-31T03:39:28Z montxero: What are some of the things necessary to write a plotting library from scratch
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2019-12-31T03:40:52Z rumbler31: at the risk of sounding dumb, nothing?
2019-12-31T03:40:57Z LdBeth: rumbler31: it’s fairly easy compute the distance to all different intersection points as a brutal force method
2019-12-31T03:41:26Z LdBeth: Since the graph isn’t cyclic
2019-12-31T03:41:38Z no-defun-allowed: You need to draw some lines on some kind of output that looks like a graph, and some linear equations.
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2019-12-31T03:42:19Z no-defun-allowed: montxero: Do you mean something like gnuplot where you give it some points and it draws a graph of some sort?
2019-12-31T03:42:22Z rumbler31: LdBeth: I know.  I have discovered each crossing coordinate, and I have arrays of the coordinates of each line, and I can get the positions of each crossing in each array
2019-12-31T03:42:59Z rumbler31: and when I sum up the distances to each crossing and sort them, the lowest number I get is not the answer
2019-12-31T03:43:27Z LdBeth: I gave up at day 17 anyway
2019-12-31T03:43:36Z rumbler31: I suspect my coordinates are not truly in order in the array, but from what I can tell, they should be.  order doesn't matter for part 1 which would explain why I can answer that and not this
2019-12-31T03:44:32Z LdBeth: rumbler31: umm, so did your answer works on the small data sample they give?
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2019-12-31T03:44:51Z rumbler31: yes
2019-12-31T03:45:19Z rumbler31: I"m vexxed
2019-12-31T03:46:16Z rumbler31: oh there are two test inputs, let me try the second
2019-12-31T03:48:58Z rumbler31: yup, same answer
2019-12-31T03:49:51Z rumbler31: its possible I'm missing a crossing I guess
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2019-12-31T03:52:49Z LdBeth: rumbler31: maybe you can try a more “clever” method, constructing a weighted graph and search for the shortest path by breadth first search
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2019-12-31T03:53:08Z rumbler31: hmm a weighted graph
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2019-12-31T03:55:06Z montxero: no-defun-allowed: Exactly.  I mean something similar to Gnuplot
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2019-12-31T03:55:36Z montxero: Preferably without depending on LTK or the like
2019-12-31T03:56:11Z LdBeth: rumbler31: if you search something like Dijkstra shortest path ;)
2019-12-31T03:57:29Z no-defun-allowed: montxero: You would want to determine a transformation from the coordinate space you want for the points (possibly the minimum X and Y values to maximum) to the coordinate space of your graphics output. Then you apply those transformations to your points and draw them.
2019-12-31T03:58:27Z no-defun-allowed: https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/ehngac/the_main_highway_between_australias_two_largest/ ):
2019-12-31T03:58:31Z no-defun-allowed: Oops, meant for #lispcafe.
2019-12-31T03:58:56Z no-defun-allowed: Still very bad news though :(
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2019-12-31T04:06:01Z rumbler31: I seem to be getting different answers for my intersections than someone else's code so oh well
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2019-12-31T04:21:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-12-31T04:22:04Z Josh_2: Mornin beach
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2019-12-31T05:20:55Z no-defun-allowed: Is it possible to pass arguments to initialize-instance on the metaclass that are evaluated from DEFCLASS?
2019-12-31T05:24:23Z Bike: you mean, you want to write a defclass form, and include some keyword arguments for initialize-instance, and have the values be evaluated?
2019-12-31T05:25:23Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
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2019-12-31T05:25:43Z Bike: i don't think that's possible.
2019-12-31T05:26:56Z no-defun-allowed: I guess I could (mapcar #'eval <the argument>), and it would half-work.
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2019-12-31T05:36:28Z no-defun-allowed: Are there any reasons to use DEFCLASS in a non-null lexical environment?
2019-12-31T05:37:39Z beach: I think so, yes.
2019-12-31T05:37:47Z beach: The :INITFORMs might be in a non-null lexical environment.
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2019-12-31T05:38:53Z no-defun-allowed: True.
2019-12-31T05:39:44Z beach: (let ((x 0)) (defclass bla () ((x :initform (incf x)))))
2019-12-31T05:39:47Z LdBeth: no-defun-allowed: you could pass a thunk to be funcalled by initialize-instance
2019-12-31T05:40:00Z LdBeth: Rather than call eval
2019-12-31T05:40:21Z Bike: can't write that in a macro, ldbeth.
2019-12-31T05:40:27Z Bike: without #. or somethin anyway
2019-12-31T05:40:35Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: You mean like (defclass foo (...) (...) (:bar (lambda ...)))? That would still be quoted.
2019-12-31T05:43:27Z LdBeth: Well, at least possible with #.
2019-12-31T05:43:45Z Bike: i mean, but then it's evaluated in a null lexical environment
2019-12-31T05:43:52Z Bike: so you haven't solved anything
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2019-12-31T05:45:04Z peey: Is there function equivalent to assoc but it checks equality of the value (cdr) than the key?
2019-12-31T05:45:16Z no-defun-allowed: clhs rassoc
2019-12-31T05:45:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rassoc.htm
2019-12-31T05:46:09Z peey: That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!
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2019-12-31T06:41:42Z emaczen: Is there a funcallable variant of cffi:foreign-funcall-pointer? What do you do if your arguments aren't known until runtime?
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2019-12-31T06:44:40Z emaczen: I looked at the macro-expansion form of course, but will this API change?
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2019-12-31T09:05:47Z bestinket: hi
2019-12-31T09:06:14Z no-defun-allowed: Hello bestinket
2019-12-31T09:06:39Z bestinket: I did (defvar *db* nil) I pushed some contents on tha database, now i want to view them
2019-12-31T09:07:00Z smokeink: *db*
2019-12-31T09:08:05Z beach: ... followed by <RET> :)
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2019-12-31T09:10:55Z beach: bestinket: Did that work?
2019-12-31T09:11:14Z bestinket: ofc
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2019-12-31T09:11:58Z beach: Then, it is customary to acknowledge that fact, like by saying "smokeink: Thanks!"
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2019-12-31T09:15:16Z bestinket: (defun add-record (cd) (push cd *db*))
2019-12-31T09:15:33Z bestinket: CL-USER> (add-record (make-cd "Roses" "Kathy Mattea" 7 t))
2019-12-31T09:15:35Z bestinket: ((:TITLE "Roses" :ARTIST "Kathy Mattea" :RATING 7 :RIPPED T))
2019-12-31T09:16:00Z beach: Like I said, when you find the help you get to be useful, it is customary to acknowledge that fact, like by saying "smokeink: Thanks!"
2019-12-31T09:16:12Z bestinket: when is the (push cd *db*) executed, thanks beach smokeink
2019-12-31T09:16:34Z beach: When you call ADD-RECORD.
2019-12-31T09:16:52Z smokeink: you're welcome
2019-12-31T09:17:07Z no-defun-allowed: When the Lisp evaluator calls ADD-RECORD with your CD, it then evaluates the body of ADD-RECORD.
2019-12-31T09:17:36Z no-defun-allowed: That occurs after the same process is done with MAKE-CD.
2019-12-31T09:17:48Z jackdaniel smells PCL :)
2019-12-31T09:18:20Z ck_: good choice for a christmas present
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2019-12-31T09:20:18Z beach: bestinket: Common Lisp is no different from most languages in this respect.  It is call-by-value eager evaluation.
2019-12-31T09:21:01Z bestinket: (add-record (make-cd ...)) asa add-record is called, make-cd too is called so make-cd is executed first then push..
2019-12-31T09:21:22Z smokeink: right
2019-12-31T09:21:36Z beach: Right, just with most other languages.
2019-12-31T09:21:59Z beach: just *as* with...
2019-12-31T09:22:18Z jackdaniel: beach: in function calls first arguments are evaluated then the function is applied to them (left-to-right order of evaluation is guaranteed, unlike i.e C)
2019-12-31T09:22:23Z jackdaniel: bestinket: °
2019-12-31T09:22:29Z jackdaniel: not you beach , I'm sure you know that ;-)
2019-12-31T09:22:47Z beach: Thanks for the reminder though! :)
2019-12-31T09:25:19Z jackdaniel: bestinket: you may override that behavior (the evaluation rule) with macros, but you don't need to concern yourself with that yet
2019-12-31T09:30:08Z bestinket: i am not comfortable in the repl
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2019-12-31T09:32:22Z jackdaniel: you may write your code in the file and then compile/load said file like in other languages
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2019-12-31T09:32:40Z jackdaniel: repl is /something more/, not the obligatory tool
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2019-12-31T09:35:44Z bestinket: repl has no persistence unlike jupyter notebooks
2019-12-31T09:35:49Z bestinket: and no "cells"
2019-12-31T09:35:58Z jackdaniel: then use cl-jupyter
2019-12-31T09:36:02Z jackdaniel: no problem with that
2019-12-31T09:36:34Z beach: bestinket: The usual way of working is that you have an Emacs+SLIME instance, and you have one Emacs window with a source file and the other with the REPL.
2019-12-31T09:36:34Z jackdaniel: you can't say that oranges are bad becase they are not as fast as a car -- they are two different things and speed is not axis of their comparison
2019-12-31T09:36:59Z beach: bestinket: You then edit the file and hit a few keystrokes to have SLIME transfer the code to your Common Lisp system.
2019-12-31T09:37:10Z beach: bestinket: That way you have persistence.
2019-12-31T09:37:27Z beach: bestinket: The REPL is used mostly for testing the code you just typed in.
2019-12-31T09:37:50Z jackdaniel: bestinket: https://github.com/fredokun/cl-jupyter , this softwre is actively maintained (if you insist on using jupyter notebooks)
2019-12-31T09:37:57Z bestinket: so repl is only for one-liners
2019-12-31T09:38:20Z no-defun-allowed: You can write any length of code in the REPL.
2019-12-31T09:38:34Z jackdaniel: yes, that would be fair statement that it works best for one-liners, you use file buffers for longer snippets
2019-12-31T09:38:50Z beach: bestinket: Not necessarily one-liners, but for code that you don't intend to save, like testing the code you *do* want to save.
2019-12-31T09:38:52Z jackdaniel: but asn no-defun-allowed noted, you may write code of any length in the repl
2019-12-31T09:39:03Z no-defun-allowed: I would say that LOADing a file and typing it form-by-form into the REPL give you the same result, but there probably would be some difference.
2019-12-31T09:39:17Z bestinket: because if we write 4 lines, then how would be get the repl's 4 lines to load inside the file for persistence?
2019-12-31T09:39:46Z jackdaniel: I don't understand the above question
2019-12-31T09:39:58Z smokeink: just do as beach said, save your sourcecode in a file and use Emacs with Slime
2019-12-31T09:40:01Z bestinket: you said we can write longer lines inside repl
2019-12-31T09:40:04Z no-defun-allowed: You could use DRIBBLE to write out everything that happens in the REPL to a file for later analysis.
2019-12-31T09:40:06Z no-defun-allowed: clhs dribble
2019-12-31T09:40:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dribbl.htm
2019-12-31T09:40:21Z no-defun-allowed: Yes you can.
2019-12-31T09:42:28Z beach: bestinket: You typically don't type those lines in the REPL then.  You type them in a buffer that has a file backing.
2019-12-31T09:42:57Z beach: bestinket: Then you can hit (say) C-c C-c and the code will be transferred to your Common Lisp system.
2019-12-31T09:43:12Z beach: bestinket: From then on, you can use your code from the REPL.
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2019-12-31T09:54:55Z bestinket: sbcl --script file.cl doesn't add a newline on format t "hello" but clisp file.cl does?
2019-12-31T09:55:42Z no-defun-allowed: Do you mean (format t "hello")?
2019-12-31T09:56:16Z jackdaniel: if you want to add a new line, do (format t "hello~%")
2019-12-31T09:56:23Z no-defun-allowed: That isn't the same as « format t "hello" », nor is it obligated to write a new line at the end.
2019-12-31T09:56:33Z pjb: bestinket: repl has persistence, if you call (DRIBBLE).
2019-12-31T09:56:36Z pjb: clhs dribble
2019-12-31T09:56:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dribbl.htm
2019-12-31T09:57:08Z no-defun-allowed: You could also use (write-line "hello"), but admittedly I don't know if it's considered as bad to use FORMAT with no arguments, as, say, it is in C to use printf with no arguments.
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2019-12-31T12:07:53Z reg32: Hi Phoe
2019-12-31T12:07:59Z reg32: are you active in the channel?
2019-12-31T12:08:20Z beach: He is.
2019-12-31T12:09:02Z reg32: Phoe: I have fixed Roswell bug #395. I know that you are interested into it
2019-12-31T12:09:10Z reg32: culd you test it also on your side?
2019-12-31T12:10:13Z reg32: I am just a contributor so my fix is not merged yet but I have just raised a pull request. The pull must be merged and roswell bult from sources
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2019-12-31T13:20:08Z Xach: wotta nitemare. cl-colors2 is a fork of cl-colors that does not rename the package and now something depends on both and it's broken!
2019-12-31T13:20:49Z Xach: why on earth do i have both?
2019-12-31T13:23:27Z dlowe: why does something depend on both
2019-12-31T13:28:09Z Xach: dlowe: an old project depended on both prove and cl-colors. prove just added a dep on cl-colors2. it's indirect.
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2019-12-31T13:34:50Z Xach: (i think)
2019-12-31T13:37:05Z eeeeeta: Xach: does quicklisp / ASDF actually allow you to depend on two packages with different versions?
2019-12-31T13:37:10Z phoe: minion: memo for reg32: Thanks! I'll check it out later.
2019-12-31T13:37:11Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell reg32 when he/she/it next speaks.
2019-12-31T13:37:14Z eeeeeta: I'm guessing not, because then you can't like load both
2019-12-31T13:38:10Z _death: Xach: multiple wtfs there, but I guess the easiest fix is to convince cl-colors2 and its users to change package name
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2019-12-31T13:40:02Z Xach: eeeeeta: no. but two different system names are two different systems.
2019-12-31T13:40:29Z eeeeeta: Xach: so if a library author made a breaking change, then everything would be broken until dependent libraries fixed it?
2019-12-31T13:41:49Z Xach: yes
2019-12-31T13:42:01Z galdor: you cannot really force people to maintain their code a certain way
2019-12-31T13:42:17Z galdor: at some point, if a system breaks everything, people will stop using it
2019-12-31T13:43:00Z galdor: or you can decide quicklisp is highly opiniated and only accept systems which behave a specific way, but then quicklisp users will complain not having access to other systems
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2019-12-31T13:45:40Z Xach: galdor: if something is maintained in a way that makes it impossible to include in quicklisp, i let people know. they can change it if they like.
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2019-12-31T13:51:27Z galdor: impossible sure; but it's hard to police all the little conflicts (packages, readtables, etc.)
2019-12-31T13:52:03Z Xach: yes, that is not a goal for me.
2019-12-31T13:52:27Z Xach: there are combinations of packages that cannot be used together and i don't consider that a very important problem.
2019-12-31T13:52:47Z Xach: it is a minor problem today and only noticed because it replaces a bigger problem.
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2019-12-31T14:24:04Z Xach: maybe it's not related to prove after all
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2019-12-31T15:06:34Z yottabyte: hi, is anyone here familiar with ABCL?
2019-12-31T15:08:22Z jackdaniel: yottabyte: I'm sure that some are. Is it abcl-specific question? if you find no luck here, then you may try #abcl channel
2019-12-31T15:09:00Z yottabyte: oh, I didn't know there was an IRC channel for ABCL, I'll check it out since it is ABCL specific, thanks
2019-12-31T15:09:12Z jackdaniel: sure
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2019-12-31T19:27:15Z puchacz: hi, is sbcl 2.0.0 a big rewrite of something? or just new year?
2019-12-31T19:27:33Z jackdaniel: puchacz: just new decade
2019-12-31T19:27:42Z puchacz: :-)
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2019-12-31T19:51:11Z pfdietz: The huge change is that the most significant digit has increased.
2019-12-31T19:51:51Z pfdietz: Oh, and the usual efficiency and correctness and code cleanliness modifications.
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2019-12-31T20:00:16Z puchacz: pfdietz, sure I am very happy with sbcl
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2019-12-31T20:20:00Z pjb: puchacz: now we know that for sbcl, version v.a.i means year:2000+v*10+a  month:i
2019-12-31T20:20:14Z pjb: perhaps month:i+1
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2019-12-31T20:20:45Z puchacz: pjb: it makes sense as sbcl is released monthly
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2019-12-31T20:24:08Z mark91: Is there a way to launch an interactive CLI app with lisp (SBCL)? I'm trying to emulate the Ruby command `system "vim CHANGES.md && git add CHANGES.md` which launches vim, allows you to edit and then adds the file to Git. I tried `uiop:run-program` but it complains about not being a terminal.
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2019-12-31T20:34:43Z pjb: mark91: you can open a X terminal with xterm:  xterm -e /bin/bash -l -c "your command here"
2019-12-31T20:36:15Z mark91: pjb: Thanks that might be a good option. Since I posted my question I did discover that `run-program` supports `:input/:output :interactive` which seems to do what I want.
2019-12-31T20:36:53Z pjb: mark91: without xterm, you can use eg. Terminal.app:   (echo ls ; echo read -p done done)  > /tmp/c.command ; chmod 755 /tmp/c.command ; open -a Terminal.app   /tmp/c.command
2019-12-31T20:37:05Z pjb: ls = your command.
2019-12-31T20:37:53Z pjb: mark91: ccl comes with /Applications/Clozure CL.app/Contents/Resources/AltConsole.app to do this kind of stuff…
2019-12-31T20:39:18Z pjb: mark91: perhaps, reading the taoup would be a good thing. http://catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/
2019-12-31T20:40:43Z pjb: mark91: because you might be under the illusion that a terminal is available.  What if your application is launched by Siri to answer a question in a purely audio user interface?
2019-12-31T20:41:50Z mark91: The intended user for this app is me and it assumes you edit markdown in vim :)
2019-12-31T20:42:20Z mark91: Hey siri, 2 j c w type ... :)
2019-12-31T20:42:44Z mark91: That said, I've been meaning to read that book. I think I'll get it now.
2019-12-31T20:43:44Z pjb: mark91: just be careful with the context.
2019-12-31T20:46:15Z jasom: TIL sb-posix won't build with a writable root
2019-12-31T20:46:46Z jasom: one of the tests checks that root isn't other-writable as a sanity check for stat
2019-12-31T20:47:50Z pjb: I'd propose a time machine, or patches…
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2019-12-31T20:48:39Z jasom: I was building portacle in a chroot, which is how I discovered it.
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2019-12-31T23:16:07Z Inline: happy new year
2019-12-31T23:17:36Z duuqnd: Happy new year!
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2019-12-31T23:23:04Z akoana: happy new year!
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2019-12-31T23:23:58Z PuercoPope: (happpy (incf year))!
2019-12-31T23:24:07Z PuercoPope: *happyp
2019-12-31T23:26:28Z ArthurStrong: PuercoPope: #T
2019-12-31T23:31:48Z no-defun-allowed: ArthurStrong: you misspelled T
2019-12-31T23:32:19Z ArthurStrong: no-defun-allowed: what is the correct way?
2019-12-31T23:32:22Z ArthurStrong: to spell it?
2019-12-31T23:32:26Z akoana: t
2019-12-31T23:32:33Z ArthurStrong: OK
2019-12-31T23:32:53Z akoana: you nasty schemer :)  lol
2019-12-31T23:33:08Z ArthurStrong: yep
2019-12-31T23:33:21Z ArthurStrong: a scout here
2019-12-31T23:33:23Z ArthurStrong: spy
2019-12-31T23:33:38Z akoana: haha you've been discovered :)
2019-12-31T23:34:04Z LdBeth: Wtt
2019-12-31T23:34:23Z ArthurStrong like Scheme and Racket more. But there are more good books based on CL
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2019-12-31T23:42:30Z akoana: ArthurStrong: come on (it's) lisp - happy new year!
2019-12-31T23:42:33Z akoana: :)
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