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2019-11-01T00:11:15Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: instead of renaming imports, you have define-symbol-macro; but indeed, this works only for variables.
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2019-11-01T00:35:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: defmacros work for functions, I guess
2019-11-01T00:38:19Z pjb: there are various defalias macros. For functions, (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (symbol-function 'bar)) can be used.
2019-11-01T00:38:43Z pjb: (or fdefinition for setfers).
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2019-11-01T01:35:07Z LdBeth: yes set can do that
2019-11-01T01:35:23Z LdBeth: but cl lexicon provides more features such as late binding
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2019-11-01T02:07:32Z pfdietz: (looks at cl-strings)   This doesn't preserve element-type.  That's very important:   SBCL base strings use as little as 1/4 the space of general strings.
2019-11-01T02:08:06Z pfdietz: It would be better to implement those functions as methods that specialize on the string argument(s).
2019-11-01T02:09:38Z pfdietz: Interesting aside: the standard allows a lisp reader to produce base strings when reading string constants, if all the characters in the constant are base chars.   When SBCL Is tweaked to do this, some failures occur in quicklisp.  Some people assume the strings are always element-type CHARACTER.
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2019-11-01T04:34:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-11-01T04:45:24Z loke: Hello beach!
2019-11-01T04:45:37Z loke: beach: I have a question about cluffer
2019-11-01T04:45:44Z beach: Sure.
2019-11-01T04:46:07Z loke: Question 1: WOuld you be able to put it on Quicklisp, in order for users to not have to manually download it?
2019-11-01T04:46:33Z beach: That's a good idea.  I must have totally forgotten to do that.
2019-11-01T04:47:04Z loke: Question 2: Do you have a suggestion how to implement ranges? (similar to how Emacs implements text properties and overlays)
2019-11-01T04:47:36Z beach: Not really.  I haven't given it any thought.
2019-11-01T04:47:39Z beach: Sorry.
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2019-11-01T04:47:54Z loke: I was thinking of implement a rangeusing two cursors. That would track the start/end of the range properly. However, I need an efifcient way to find all ranges that cover a given cursor position.
2019-11-01T04:48:17Z beach: I see, yes.
2019-11-01T04:48:39Z beach: How many such ranges do you have?
2019-11-01T04:48:42Z LdBeth: loke: text property it attached to each characters
2019-11-01T04:48:55Z ck_: sounds like a job for an interval tree
2019-11-01T04:48:59Z loke: The root problem is that I need to be able to attach metadata to ranges of text.
2019-11-01T04:49:19Z loke: LdBeth: Yes, but that would use a _lot_ of memory for a large document.
2019-11-01T04:49:54Z ck_: but maybe you'll want to read the discussion on that during the xemacs / gnu emacs diverging.  I believe there's a balancing tree for intervals in emacs since then.
2019-11-01T04:49:56Z LdBeth: loke: no, that can be shared between characters
2019-11-01T04:50:06Z beach: ck_: It might be more difficult than that, given that individual cursors can change independently, and that text can be inserted and deleted anywhere.
2019-11-01T04:50:21Z loke: LdBeth: exactly. Emacs implements this using ranges.
2019-11-01T04:51:47Z LdBeth: a character with properties could also be a pair of the codepoint and a reference to the properties
2019-11-01T04:53:11Z LdBeth: I don’t think emacs does this with ranges, since text properties can be preserved even cut and paste from a buffer to another
2019-11-01T04:53:43Z loke: LdBeth: text properties are implemented behind the scenes in Emacs using ranges
2019-11-01T04:54:13Z loke: But the ranges are not directly accessible. The API presented to the user is simply a set of text properties per character.
2019-11-01T04:54:25Z beach: An interesting idea would be to exploit the open/closed line idea of Cluffer.  Conceptually, each character would be what LdBeth suggests, namely a pair of code-point and properties.  But when a line is closed, a more compact representation could be computed.
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2019-11-01T04:54:59Z loke: beach: So the ranges would be computed per-line?
2019-11-01T04:55:08Z loke: I guess that's a reasonable compromise.
2019-11-01T04:55:17Z beach: Yeah, something like that.
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2019-11-01T04:55:37Z beach: It sounds likely that there will be little variation within a line.
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2019-11-01T04:57:03Z loke: Well, the peorperties describe things like fonts/colours/etc, as well as arbitrary other things), so there is a lot of variations.
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2019-11-01T04:57:27Z beach: Within a single line?
2019-11-01T04:57:38Z beach: Such text would be very hard to read.
2019-11-01T04:58:20Z loke: beach: Think syntax highlighting.
2019-11-01T04:58:42Z beach: Oh, you wouldn't want to put that in the buffer itself.
2019-11-01T04:58:51Z beach: It is best to do that as a result of parsing.
2019-11-01T04:59:02Z beach: So it would be a property of the "view" instead.
2019-11-01T04:59:28Z beach: Otherwise, you will have to scan the entire buffer for each character you insert or delete.
2019-11-01T04:59:58Z loke: beach: that's what Emacs does :-)
2019-11-01T05:00:05Z beach: I am sorry to hear that.
2019-11-01T05:00:18Z loke: Well, not the entire buffer. It scans backwars to some synchronisation point (usually the beginning of the defun)
2019-11-01T05:00:24Z beach: Another reason to write a replacement.
2019-11-01T05:00:30Z loke: Indeed
2019-11-01T05:00:34Z beach: Yes, and that's a terrible idea.
2019-11-01T05:01:24Z loke: Clearly I want to make best use of your parser. I should probably take a look at its API to make sure I understand it.
2019-11-01T05:01:44Z beach: Sure.  There is a paper describing it too.
2019-11-01T05:01:54Z loke: Link? :-)
2019-11-01T05:02:01Z beach: *sigh*
2019-11-01T05:02:05Z beach: Hold on...
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2019-11-01T05:02:31Z beach: metamodular.com/incremental-parsing.pdf
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2019-11-01T05:06:40Z loke: beach: I note there is a Cleavir and Clearvir2
2019-11-01T05:07:02Z loke: The paper mentions Cleavir only.
2019-11-01T05:07:34Z beach: That's because Cleavir2 was created after the paper was written.
2019-11-01T05:07:41Z loke: Should I stick with 2?
2019-11-01T05:07:54Z beach: I don't think it matters much.
2019-11-01T05:08:12Z beach: But yeah, 2 might replace 1 one day.
2019-11-01T05:08:33Z beach: The parser does not depend on Cleavir though.
2019-11-01T05:08:58Z beach: But it will depend on Eclector, once scymtym adds the functionality to Eclector that I need.
2019-11-01T05:09:24Z beach: Then, if you want to do further analysis, you need Cleavir or some native analyzer.
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2019-11-01T05:14:06Z loke: I think it's time for my fifth (or so) rewrite of the editor core.
2019-11-01T05:14:54Z beach: Sounds like normal procedure to me.
2019-11-01T05:15:36Z beach: It is impossible to imagine a complete specification of things until different ways are tested in real code.
2019-11-01T05:15:39Z loke: So far, my “view” has been the visual representation of the buffer content on a line-by-line basis. I.e. every line in the cluffer buffer has a visual representation that has a given height.
2019-11-01T05:17:54Z beach: I think you need very different representations of different views for different kinds of text you are editing.
2019-11-01T05:18:07Z beach: For code, I think the parser idea is the best.
2019-11-01T05:18:41Z loke: Yes.
2019-11-01T05:19:03Z beach: And it may be right for many other things as well, like HTML, markdown, and other stuff with some syntax imposed.
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2019-11-01T05:25:52Z beach: I think you just gave me some of the reasons why I prefer to invent my own solutions before looking at what was done in the past.  I do not want to be influenced by solutions that may have been appropriate in one context, but that aren't in others.
2019-11-01T05:26:20Z loke: Yeah. I've built something that is modelled on what GNU Emacs does.
2019-11-01T05:26:36Z beach: I see, yes.
2019-11-01T05:26:53Z beach: GNU Emacs is old technology now.
2019-11-01T05:27:02Z loke: Yes.
2019-11-01T05:27:15Z beach: 1983 or 1984 as I recall.
2019-11-01T05:27:39Z beach: Of course, with my preferred way, I then occasionally re-invent something that has already been done.
2019-11-01T05:27:49Z beach: But it happens less often than one might fear.
2019-11-01T05:27:50Z LdBeth: > Norvig, in his GHWB impression, says &AUX is "bad! bad!"
2019-11-01T05:28:05Z loke: I'm pretty sure that concepts such as overlays are newer than that, but yes.
2019-11-01T05:28:09Z loke: The core is that old.
2019-11-01T05:28:15Z ArthurStrong: like xterm :)
2019-11-01T05:28:19Z ArthurStrong: which predates Internet
2019-11-01T05:28:37Z beach: loke: I think they may have cooked up solutions to problems based on what they had to work with, i.e. the old core.
2019-11-01T05:29:27Z beach: ArthurStrong: Do you have some data to support those dates?
2019-11-01T05:29:42Z beach: ArthurStrong: Actually, forget it.  It's off topic.
2019-11-01T05:29:46Z LdBeth: Actually James Gosling invented many things of emacs on Unix by his own
2019-11-01T05:30:22Z beach: LdBeth: Not any great solutions as I recall.
2019-11-01T05:30:23Z ArthurStrong: beach: no, just IMHO
2019-11-01T05:30:34Z LdBeth: :D
2019-11-01T05:30:56Z loke: My current work has been a learning experience, and has taught me a lot. That's the nicest thing I can say about it :-)
2019-11-01T05:31:15Z ArthurStrong: "Xterm originated prior to the X Window System. It was originally written as a stand-alone terminal emulator for the VAXStation 100 (VS100) by Mark Vandevoorde, a student of Jim Gettys, in the summer of 1984, when work on X started." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xterm )
2019-11-01T05:31:21Z LdBeth: Yes, there’s no code doesn’t perish
2019-11-01T05:31:21Z beach: loke: I totally agree.  There is no reason to feel bad.
2019-11-01T05:31:36Z beach: ArthurStrong: Actually, forget it.  It's off topic.
2019-11-01T05:32:22Z beach: We already had Multics Emacs as a model when Gosling did his work.
2019-11-01T05:32:41Z beach: There was no reason to do it any other way.
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2019-11-01T05:34:40Z LdBeth: I believe parser combinator has been reinvented several times
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2019-11-01T05:51:24Z ricman: do ECL (embeddable common lisp) support CLOS?
2019-11-01T05:51:38Z beach: Sure.
2019-11-01T05:51:59Z beach: ECL is an conforming implementation of the Common Lisp specification.
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2019-11-01T05:54:13Z beach: ricman: Did you have reasons to think otherwise?
2019-11-01T05:54:57Z ober: beach: be nice
2019-11-01T05:55:32Z beach: ober: ?
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2019-11-01T05:56:38Z ricman: beach: cool, thanks
2019-11-01T05:57:17Z beach: ricman: I am still interested in the reason for your question.
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2019-11-01T06:01:52Z ober: well a lot of stuff on ecl won't build. like mop-utils in ql
2019-11-01T06:02:48Z beach: I don't know ECL in that level of detail, but technically, the MOP is not part of the Common Lisp standard.
2019-11-01T06:03:12Z beach: I guess jackdaniel would have to address that issue.  He is the current ECL maintainer.
2019-11-01T06:03:17Z no-defun-allowed: I'm pretty sure ECL supports the MOP.
2019-11-01T06:04:11Z ober: so I'm interested in why if it's not in the standard, the statement that it's compliant with the standard would apply to a question about it...
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2019-11-01T06:05:36Z beach: ober: Too many "it"s in your utterance.  I can't figure out what each one refers to.
2019-11-01T06:06:42Z beach: ober: There is a part of CLOS that is in the Common Lisp standard, but the MOP has many more features than that, some of which are even contradicting the standard.
2019-11-01T06:07:03Z loke: beach: What part of MOS contradicts the standard?
2019-11-01T06:07:06Z loke: MOP
2019-11-01T06:07:25Z beach: loke: I don't remember by heart.
2019-11-01T06:08:55Z beach: loke: There are not many such items, and they are minor, but still.
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2019-11-01T06:25:25Z beach: I doesn't look like my questions are going to be answered today.  Oh well.
2019-11-01T06:29:08Z aeth: loke: I think it's something small like something that's normally a function, but with MOP is a generic function instead or something. But apparently that isn't against the standard, so I have to be misremembering the details
2019-11-01T06:29:40Z beach: aeth: That is not right.  The standard allows for every function to be generic.
2019-11-01T06:31:21Z aeth: yes
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2019-11-01T06:56:53Z beach: It may have been small stuff like one saying "the consequences are undefined" and the other one that "an error is signaled".
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2019-11-01T07:02:57Z mabox: The guy did suggest at Cristosan.com
2019-11-01T07:04:03Z beach: mabox: What?
2019-11-01T07:07:11Z no-defun-allowed: beach: That is some kind of spammer.
2019-11-01T07:07:36Z no-defun-allowed: The website redirects you to a tweet by what I assume is a markov chain.
2019-11-01T07:08:00Z beach: I refuse to follow a link unless the person who posted it explains what it is about.
2019-11-01T07:08:06Z beach: Hence my "What?"
2019-11-01T07:11:20Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think whoever came up with the spam bot programmed it to explain itself, sadly.
2019-11-01T07:12:04Z beach: I am not looking for an explanation.  I am looking for the absence of one, so that I don't have to follow the link.
2019-11-01T07:13:31Z White_Flame: LdBeth: one interesting use of &aux that I've found is computing derived struct slot values in the declared BOA constructor without needing a function body
2019-11-01T07:14:15Z loke: BOA Constructor?
2019-11-01T07:14:15Z White_Flame: but yeah, other than that syntactic trick, it's quite obsolete
2019-11-01T07:14:29Z White_Flame: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_df.htm
2019-11-01T07:17:31Z loke: Wow. I didn't know that was possible. And even though I now know about it, I don't think I'll ever use it.
2019-11-01T07:17:32Z loke: :-)
2019-11-01T07:19:27Z White_Flame likes shortcuts when possible and fits the intent.  Plus, with Lisp it's pretty easy to unroll into "full form" if it gets past the scope of the shortcut
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2019-11-01T07:28:26Z loke: To be honest, I rarely if ever use DEFSTRUCT :-)
2019-11-01T07:28:33Z loke: I prefer DEFCLASS
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2019-11-01T10:51:24Z jmercouris: Ok, so yesterday we established that we can't do FFI to C++ because the ABI is not standard in C++ world
2019-11-01T10:51:38Z jmercouris: my question then is, how do the Smoke/QT4 bindings work?
2019-11-01T10:52:00Z jmercouris: I'm talking about https://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/
2019-11-01T10:52:10Z jmercouris: If we can't invoke C++ code from Lisp, how can we use Qt?
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2019-11-01T10:53:36Z phoe: AFAIK, smoke generates C bindings to *all the functions*
2019-11-01T10:53:40Z phoe: and these can be called
2019-11-01T10:54:20Z jmercouris: Okay, so C can call C++?
2019-11-01T10:54:30Z jmercouris: I thought yesterday someone said that C->C++ is not possible
2019-11-01T10:55:04Z phoe: of course it is
2019-11-01T10:55:11Z phoe: you generate an extern "C" binding in C++
2019-11-01T10:55:26Z jmercouris: Aha!
2019-11-01T10:55:26Z phoe: and inside your C++ object you get a C binding with a known C symbol
2019-11-01T10:55:34Z jmercouris: The final piece of the puzzle, I get it now
2019-11-01T10:55:35Z phoe: and this C function calls C++ code
2019-11-01T10:55:50Z jmercouris: Ok, I get it now, thank you
2019-11-01T10:55:58Z jmercouris: I've been thinking about this for so many hours
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2019-11-01T11:41:33Z beach: Funny that so few people see the obvious solution to that dilemma.
2019-11-01T11:41:48Z Shinmera: beach: Abandon everything?
2019-11-01T11:42:33Z beach: Program in Common Lisp instead.
2019-11-01T11:42:59Z pjb: Just say no to FFI!
2019-11-01T11:43:06Z no-defun-allowed: Standardise the C++ ABI? That would be half-polite of the – well, sure. No good if you want to use Qt though.
2019-11-01T11:43:11Z beach: But yeah, abandon everything and grow vegetables instead is another possibility.
2019-11-01T11:44:00Z beach: no-defun-allowed: It is possible to adjust what you want.
2019-11-01T11:44:29Z no-defun-allowed: Absolutely.
2019-11-01T11:45:03Z beach: But I will be quiet now because I am not adding anything new that I haven't already said.
2019-11-01T11:48:53Z no-defun-allowed: I agree life is much simpler if you are able to avoid FFI completely or avoid it as much as possible, or if you grow vegetables; but there may be reasons one wants to use Qt.
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2019-11-01T11:51:34Z no-defun-allowed: My favourite reason is to use the Qt WebEngine to load documents off a CL server, and implement the UI in HTML/CSS/JavaScript. Then use your favourite C->JavaScript transpiler to run Qt in the browser, and repeat until you get bored.
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2019-11-01T11:55:24Z no-defun-allowed: But seriously, it may be less effort per individual to bite the bullet and work with Qt than to test/port/develop/&c a CL toolkit, even though all the time taken to accomodate for foreign code would probably add up to more than enough required to make that toolkit work.
2019-11-01T11:56:31Z pfdietz: Presumably Clasp would make interoperating with C++ easier.
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2019-11-01T12:02:16Z no-defun-allowed: *less initial effort, not effort per individual
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2019-11-01T13:18:29Z beach: I am convinced we represent an instance of the prisoner's dilemma.  The optimal solution is to collaborate to create Common Lisp solutions to our collective software needs, but individually, it is better to take the FFI route.
2019-11-01T13:18:30Z beach: As a result, everybody pays the price of increased development and maintenance burden.  Except those who can and do choose to work on something that can be done entirely in Common Lisp.
2019-11-01T13:20:06Z Shinmera: Those bear the burden of enormous maintenance burdens too, just in CL
2019-11-01T13:20:18Z Shinmera ogles his 100 libraries, a lot of which would need more work
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2019-11-01T13:22:09Z beach: FFI solutions require a different kind of maintenance, namely catching up with moving targets, like Qt versions, LLVM versions, Gnome versions.
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2019-11-01T13:22:39Z beach: Or not, as it usually is, and the "solution" just bitrots.
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2019-11-01T13:28:44Z Xach: I wrote pure lisp stuff for gifs and pngs because I was frightened by the thought of foreign code crashing my long-running server.
2019-11-01T13:28:52Z Xach: or crashing as i developed
2019-11-01T13:29:10Z beach: Sounds like a good reason.
2019-11-01T13:29:18Z Xach: i hate crashing more than i needed it right away or to be super super fast
2019-11-01T13:30:33Z beach: Mhm.
2019-11-01T13:31:09Z _death: I didn't write OpenCV in pure lisp because it would require tens of thousands of man hours or more..
2019-11-01T13:32:19Z beach: _death: I think that is the very essence of the prisoner's dilemma.
2019-11-01T13:33:11Z beach: Anyway, having identified the reason for the state of things, I now understand much better what is going on, and I know that it would usually be futile to try to influence someone's choice.
2019-11-01T13:33:45Z _death: beach: but you could also flip it, so that the utilitarian solution is to use the language where most effort has already gone to, and the choosing Lisp is the egoistic individual choice
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2019-11-01T13:36:06Z beach: That might have been true if the "utilitarian solution" were effortless or nearly so.  The many questions and problems related to FFI solutions that are discussed here suggest otherwise.
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2019-11-01T13:38:56Z beach: Ultimately, if you are right, there is no reason to use Common Lisp at all.
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2019-11-01T13:41:26Z _death: there is reason, but it is an egoistic reason.. I like CL better than C++, so I don't mind putting effort into making the rest of the world work with CL.. only a small group of people may benefit from this choice
2019-11-01T13:41:52Z beach: _death: You don't need an excuse to choose the FFI solution ("tens of thousands of man hours or more").  Like I said, it is perfectly clear to me now why this solution is optimal to the individual.
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2019-11-01T13:45:40Z beach: _death: I think that is a very good idea, i.e. create a Common Lisp "wrapper" for an existing foreign library.  However, what I usually observe is a badly documented wrapper library that requires the user to understand both the foreign library, the foreign language it is written in, *and* the undocumented code of the wrapper.
2019-11-01T13:45:41Z beach: I am not saying this is the case with yours of course.  I haven't looked at it at all.
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2019-11-01T13:47:31Z _death: beach: I definitely agree with this observation.. I think it's difficult to design good interfaces, and the Lisp standard is a high one.. it's much easier to ape the foreign library's existing interface.. in the past I did that, but also did the harder work at times
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2019-11-01T13:49:34Z _death: beach: it also has to do with means and ends.. if utilization of this library is just a means to an urgent end, then it's likely the initial solution would involve less thought about the interface
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2019-11-01T13:50:22Z beach: Yes, but then it is not really usable by a wide audience.  And we are back to the prisoner's dilemma.
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2019-11-01T15:53:23Z Shinmera: Speaking of UI, though, here's another brief demo for Alloy I put together today https://youtu.be/oLRBZrdzJS0
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2019-11-01T15:54:52Z LdBeth: Yesterday I’ve tried april https://github.com/phantomics/april
2019-11-01T15:56:00Z LdBeth: I think it’s nice to have such a language embedded in CL
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2019-11-01T16:07:38Z Kabriel: Shinmera: that looks like plotting. Excuse my ignorance, but is this part of McCLIM or based on it, or something else?
2019-11-01T16:08:10Z Shinmera: Alloy is a new, pure-lisp UI toolkit (though the backend shown uses GL).
2019-11-01T16:14:15Z LdBeth: Shinmera: is it possible to draw Bézier curve with Alloy?
2019-11-01T16:14:38Z Shinmera: The Simple protocol extension has a bezier curve, yes.
2019-11-01T16:14:50Z Shinmera: Haven't implemented that in the GL backend yet.
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2019-11-01T17:04:18Z whartung: when compiled up, does SBCL shared text pages among instances?
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2019-11-01T17:07:07Z Bike: instances? like separate sbcl processes?
2019-11-01T17:07:42Z ober: the kernel will
2019-11-01T17:08:15Z whartung: yes Bike
2019-11-01T17:08:20Z whartung: yea, that’s what I mean ober
2019-11-01T17:08:30Z whartung: basically is the image in a state that the kernel can share the pages
2019-11-01T17:09:44Z ober: you can look at the /proc/$pid/smaps
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2019-11-01T18:15:15Z phoe: pfdietz: beep boop
2019-11-01T18:15:28Z pfdietz: ?
2019-11-01T18:15:33Z phoe: I have been working with MIT LOOP for a moment now and I am somewhat puzzled at https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/commit/60cb6583156fa625925a24f16153da44a59e6371
2019-11-01T18:15:41Z phoe: LOOP.1.39 and LOOP.1.40 to be precise
2019-11-01T18:15:58Z phoe: SBCL, CCL, ECL, CLISP and ABCL all seem to return 6 in that case
2019-11-01T18:16:03Z pfdietz: 17 years ago, I should remember this crisply...
2019-11-01T18:16:15Z phoe: yes, exactly this; I am sorry about that
2019-11-01T18:16:52Z phoe: does anyone on #lisp know which part of the standard specifies the rationale for these tests? In particular, that X is not supposed to be set anywhere outside (INTEGER 1 5)?
2019-11-01T18:17:04Z phoe: And that it is not supposed to be 6 when it is returned?
2019-11-01T18:18:03Z pfdietz: "In an iteration control clause, the for or as construct causes termination when the supplied limit is reached. That is, iteration continues until the value var is stepped to the exclusive or inclusive limit supplied by form2."
2019-11-01T18:19:13Z pfdietz: So, 1.41 may be wrong
2019-11-01T18:19:16Z White_Flame: phoe:  the definition of stepping says that the variable itself is updated in anticipation for the next iteration
2019-11-01T18:19:33Z White_Flame: by that, X would legitimately be 6, and the declaration of (integer 1 5) is wrong
2019-11-01T18:19:40Z phoe: pfdietz: it seems that passage is from CLtL2 though
2019-11-01T18:19:48Z Bike: it's in 6 1 2 1 1
2019-11-01T18:19:50Z pfdietz: It is in the CLHS
2019-11-01T18:20:00Z Bike: "For these clauses, iteration terminates when a local variable reaches some supplied value or when some other loop clause terminates iteration." is in 6.1.2.1, too
2019-11-01T18:20:00Z phoe: Oh, okay
2019-11-01T18:20:18Z phoe: clhs 6.1.2.1.1
2019-11-01T18:20:18Z specbot: The for-as-arithmetic subclause: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abaa.htm
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2019-11-01T18:22:17Z White_Flame: "is reached" is problematic with those examples, if taken to be "is equal to".  The examples clearly show overshooting the target "to 10" value, not reaching it exactly
2019-11-01T18:23:06Z White_Flame: the first paragraph does say that the variable is stepped after each iteration, with no exemption for the final iteration
2019-11-01T18:24:27Z phoe: White_Flame: which examples do you mean?
2019-11-01T18:24:39Z White_Flame: in 6.1.2.1.1: (let ((x 1)) (loop for i from x by (incf x) to 10 collect i)) =>  (1 3 5 7 9)
2019-11-01T18:25:26Z phoe: isn't this equivalent to (loop for i from x by 2 to 10 collect i)
2019-11-01T18:25:42Z phoe: isn't the BY-form is only evaluated once
2019-11-01T18:25:47Z phoe: isn't the BY-form only evaluated once*
2019-11-01T18:26:15Z pjb: (let ((x 1)) (loop for i from x by (incf x) to 10 collect i into is finally (return (values is i)))) #| --> (1 3 5 7 9) ; 11 |#
2019-11-01T18:26:29Z phoe: pjb: yes, I am aware what implementations do
2019-11-01T18:26:36Z phoe: my question is if this is what they are supposed to do
2019-11-01T18:26:43Z phoe: because then ANSI-TEST are faulty
2019-11-01T18:27:23Z phoe: (loop for i from 1 by 2 to 10 collect i into is finally (return (values is i))) is equivalent
2019-11-01T18:27:25Z pjb: I cannot find where it says that the loop variables scope covers the finally expressions…
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2019-11-01T18:27:35Z White_Flame: to my reading of the spec, regarding the definition of stepping (that it affects the variable itself), and that stepping happens at the end of each iteration, yes the test is wrong
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2019-11-01T18:28:54Z White_Flame: within pretty much every LOOP clause but FINALLY, the variable is in (integer 1 5), but it does go past that after the final iteration
2019-11-01T18:29:08Z White_Flame: so it's not a proper description of the variable itself
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2019-11-01T18:29:50Z White_Flame: if each loop clause had (locally (declare ((integer 1 5) x)) ...) that would be another thing
2019-11-01T18:29:57Z White_Flame: (except for FINALLY of course)
2019-11-01T18:30:32Z phoe: pjb: clhs 6.1.7.2 has some info, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_agb.htm
2019-11-01T18:30:40Z phoe: it states that FINALLY happens in the epilogue
2019-11-01T18:30:47Z phoe: and the epilogue is described in 6.1.1.4 at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_aad.htm
2019-11-01T18:31:13Z phoe: LOOP is expanded into bindings and block and tagbody, and inside this there is a prologue, body, and epilogue
2019-11-01T18:31:25Z phoe: this means that the epilogue is inside the bindings, which implies that the variables are accessible
2019-11-01T18:34:03Z pjb: Note that 6.1.2.1 says that:  Stepping assignments are made in the loop body BEFORE any other forms are evaluated in the body. and  Stepping assignments are made in the loop body BEFORE any other forms are evaluated in the body.
2019-11-01T18:34:06Z phoe: 6.1.2.1.1 states "iteration continues until the value var is stepped to the exclusive or inclusive limit supplied by form2."
2019-11-01T18:34:20Z pjb: It doesn't say whether the test occurs before or after the incrementing.
2019-11-01T18:34:31Z phoe: so the value var must not exceed the limit
2019-11-01T18:34:57Z phoe: so if I loop for x below/to most-positive-fixnum, then x can be set to most-positive-fixnum but must never exceed it
2019-11-01T18:35:07Z White_Flame: the verbiage ends up contradictsory
2019-11-01T18:35:08Z White_Flame: -s
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2019-11-01T18:35:18Z phoe: well shit, not the first or the last time
2019-11-01T18:35:28Z phoe: who's up for creating the CDR
2019-11-01T18:35:31Z pjb: Therefore one could expect (if (= x last) (loop-finish) (incf x)) and x being 5 in the epilog.  Of course, this would require x to be initialized to -1, so the type would still be broken.
2019-11-01T18:35:43Z jackdaniel: I like the world "contradictsorry" :-)
2019-11-01T18:35:51Z jackdaniel: word*
2019-11-01T18:35:52Z White_Flame: yes, that is a good alternate world
2019-11-01T18:36:05Z phoe: initialized? why?
2019-11-01T18:36:23Z White_Flame: pjb: but again, there are examples where it overshoots and never exactly matches the "to" clause, yet still halts
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2019-11-01T18:37:06Z White_Flame: I don't think the tests happen anywhere outside the clauses such as for/while/until
2019-11-01T18:37:08Z jackdaniel: one could argue, that do doesn't have such problems thanks to intelligible specification ;) good night and good luck
2019-11-01T18:37:19Z phoe: :D
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2019-11-01T18:37:23Z phoe: jackdaniel: good night
2019-11-01T18:37:57Z pfdietz: I am vaguely recalling being conflicted about all this, 17 years ago.
2019-11-01T18:38:24Z pjb: White_Flame: But we can test: (if (<= x (- last increment))  (incf x increment) (loop-finish))
2019-11-01T18:38:43Z White_Flame: pjb: that avoids stepping, which would be against the spec too
2019-11-01T18:39:07Z pjb: the spec doesn't specify the order between the test and the step.  (incf x increment) is my step.
2019-11-01T18:40:06Z White_Flame: but it is stepped on each iteration.  Now, what is an "iteration"?
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2019-11-01T18:40:26Z White_Flame: if a test fails, is that not an iteration?
2019-11-01T18:41:22Z phoe: well, it isn't
2019-11-01T18:41:33Z phoe: iteration implies evaluating a loop body
2019-11-01T18:41:42Z phoe: if you don't evaluate a loop body then you ain't doing an iteration
2019-11-01T18:41:58Z phoe: (loop repeat 10 do (foo)) performs ten iterations
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2019-11-01T18:44:26Z phoe: so the way I understand it, it is stepped on each iteration
2019-11-01T18:44:38Z phoe: what if you test after the last iteration but before the next iteration - is this permitted by the spec?
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2019-11-01T18:45:13Z phoe: because then you could check that the next X is going to pass the boundary, and do not pass GO, do not collect $200, go straight to epilogue
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2019-11-01T18:46:26Z pjb: White_Flame: an iteration is when the body is executed.
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2019-11-01T18:46:51Z pjb: so you can test first, and not execute the body. Then you must not increment.  This shows that x should never be 6.
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2019-11-01T18:50:16Z phoe: okay - I will need some support
2019-11-01T18:50:54Z phoe: do we have a conclusion now, because my brain is fuzzy after discussing this on #ccl #ecl and now here
2019-11-01T18:51:04Z White_Flame: pjb: the tests are in the body, though
2019-11-01T18:51:26Z phoe: White_Flame: he means the implicit tests inside the LOOP body, not ones in the body
2019-11-01T18:52:44Z phoe: pfdietz: as for LOOP.1.41, I've created https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/issues/14 since this one seems somewhat less troubling
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2019-11-01T18:52:59Z phoe: uh - sorry White_Flame
2019-11-01T18:53:11Z phoe: I replied to a post that you made a while ago, I didn't notice that I scrolled up
2019-11-01T18:53:19Z phoe: gah I'm unfocused now
2019-11-01T18:53:46Z phoe: s/inside the LOOP body/inside the LOOP but outside the body/
2019-11-01T18:55:29Z White_Flame: pjb: semantically, in order to get the result I think you want, you'd have to test the current value (in case its equal), test the hypothetical value that it would take on if it were stepped, and then step if that hypothetical value was still in range
2019-11-01T18:55:43Z White_Flame: but given the conflicts within the text, I don't think that's the implication
2019-11-01T18:55:52Z White_Flame: or at least, I don't think that's the overall implication
2019-11-01T18:56:08Z White_Flame: it all comes down to what it means by "reached" when you're talking about overshooting a threshold
2019-11-01T18:57:00Z beach: As I recall, I made SICL LOOP pass those tests.
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2019-11-01T18:57:41Z beach: MIT loop has some other problems of conformity as well.
2019-11-01T18:57:47Z beach: Like clause ordering.
2019-11-01T18:59:07Z phoe: White_Flame: what are the options when it comes to "reached"?
2019-11-01T18:59:27Z phoe: I'd assume that a value "reaches" a threshold when it becomes equal or more than it
2019-11-01T18:59:36Z phoe: (equal or less if we iterate downwards)
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2019-11-01T18:59:50Z White_Flame: "to 10" means exclusive.  So the body still runs when it's 10, but not higher
2019-11-01T19:00:07Z phoe: that is literally inclusive though
2019-11-01T19:00:10Z White_Flame: (the threshold being tripped is exclusive of equalling 10, I guess that's confusing wording from me)
2019-11-01T19:00:13Z phoe: to 10, inclusive - less or equal to 10
2019-11-01T19:00:19Z phoe: to 10, exclusive - less to 10 but not equal
2019-11-01T19:00:26Z phoe: if the threshold permits another iteration on equality, we then iterate once more and terminate
2019-11-01T19:00:40Z pfdietz: Additional problems when STEP is not +-1
2019-11-01T19:00:43Z phoe: and it permits if it is inclusive and the var is equal to the threshold
2019-11-01T19:00:57Z White_Flame: and a related question is does the test occur against a hypotehtical value, or against the stepped value of the variable itself
2019-11-01T19:01:05Z phoe: if we iterate from 0 by 1 to 9.5 then the last iteration must be 9
2019-11-01T19:01:12Z phoe: if we iterate from 0 by 1 below 9.5 then the last iteration must also be 9
2019-11-01T19:01:37Z phoe: White_Flame: it doesn't really matter much - we do not have side effects here
2019-11-01T19:01:43Z phoe: so we can theoretically test as much as we'd like
2019-11-01T19:01:56Z phoe: we only consider numeric iteration here
2019-11-01T19:02:17Z White_Flame: the iteration is a side effect on the variable
2019-11-01T19:02:24Z White_Flame: and that affects is value in FINALLY
2019-11-01T19:02:47Z White_Flame: *its value
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2019-11-01T19:03:39Z phoe: and only in FINALLY
2019-11-01T19:03:54Z phoe: so the question is, is the variable in FINALLY supposed to ever overshoot the threshold
2019-11-01T19:04:12Z phoe: or, in other words, if LOOP.1.40 is correct
2019-11-01T19:04:26Z phoe: or if it is supposed to stay at 5
2019-11-01T19:06:40Z White_Flame: I believe it's supposed to overshoot
2019-11-01T19:07:02Z White_Flame: but this is admittedly interpreting the scriptures
2019-11-01T19:08:07Z phoe: and I believe it is not supposed to overshoot
2019-11-01T19:08:10Z phoe: which means trouble for me
2019-11-01T19:08:11Z pfdietz: Clearly we should try to read the CLHS in the original Aramaic.
2019-11-01T19:08:31Z phoe: well shit, it's time for a schism then
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2019-11-01T19:12:56Z phoe: going away from the orthodox and going for the practical now - if it does not overshoot, then it makes sense to iterate e.g. on fixnums
2019-11-01T19:13:11Z phoe: since then the variable will be never set to (1+ most-positive-fixnum)
2019-11-01T19:14:05Z phoe: and that could both be unsafe due to possible overflows and slow if LOOP must expect that a fixnum variable cannot be expected to be a fixnum
2019-11-01T19:14:23Z phoe: and therefore typecheck for bignum on each iteration
2019-11-01T19:14:37Z White_Flame: which specific wordings do you believe to imply no overshoot?
2019-11-01T19:14:51Z phoe scrolls up
2019-11-01T19:15:27Z phoe: 19:34 < phoe> 6.1.2.1.1 states "iteration continues until the value var is stepped to the exclusive or inclusive limit supplied by form2."
2019-11-01T19:15:35Z pfdietz: I would have specified it this way:   the variable visible in the body and the finally is bound to successive values in the indicated range, but is never incremented.   Its value is incremented, but that is not stored into the variable before the test for termination.
2019-11-01T19:15:50Z phoe: 19:34 < phoe> so the value var must not exceed the limit
2019-11-01T19:15:52Z phoe: 19:34 < phoe> so if I loop for x below/to most-positive-fixnum, then x can be set to most-positive-fixnum but must never exceed it
2019-11-01T19:16:38Z White_Flame: however, it's stepped before the iteration.  In "to 10", when it "is stepped to the .. inclusive limit supplied by form2", the iteration is still supposed to run
2019-11-01T19:16:49Z phoe: pfdietz: if it is incremented, then you could run into type issues as well - if you iterate on a fixnum variable, then the hidden variable must be an integer
2019-11-01T19:16:53Z White_Flame: so that puts the fencepost on "until"
2019-11-01T19:17:43Z phoe: what prevents the tests from running before the stepping occurs?
2019-11-01T19:18:06Z phoe: so either after the body but before jumping to the beginning for the next iteration, or between the beginning of the iteration and the stepping?
2019-11-01T19:18:34Z White_Flame: that's what I replied to pjb with:  You'd need to test existing, test the would-be stepped value, and then save the increment as 3 separate steps
2019-11-01T19:19:05Z phoe: hmmm
2019-11-01T19:19:21Z phoe: so we would nonetheless need to typecheck in order to test the would-be stepped value?...
2019-11-01T19:19:25Z pfdietz: phoe: that is an implementation detail.  One could test before adding to it, converting (<= (+ x step) limit) to (<= x (- limit step))
2019-11-01T19:19:44Z phoe: oh, or this
2019-11-01T19:21:17Z phoe: White_Flame: but anyway, if that is what is required to make it correct, then why can't we do this?
2019-11-01T19:21:50Z pfdietz: the problem is the specification is not clear
2019-11-01T19:22:26Z White_Flame: phoe: because I don't think it's correct ;)
2019-11-01T19:23:04Z White_Flame: at least, with everything the spec says about it, I think it contradicts the least to overshoot it
2019-11-01T19:23:14Z phoe: ;__;
2019-11-01T19:23:27Z phoe: yes, I understand this
2019-11-01T19:25:15Z phoe: so if the spec contradicts itself, I could assume that the implementations are free to do whatever they can and therefore the behaviour is undefined
2019-11-01T19:25:25Z phoe: so these ANSI-TEST tests would need to fly out of the window
2019-11-01T19:25:37Z phoe: that is yet another conclusions
2019-11-01T19:25:44Z phoe: s/conclusions/conclusion/
2019-11-01T19:26:48Z White_Flame: I woudld agree with that conclusion
2019-11-01T19:27:14Z phoe: pfdietz: does that sound sane?
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2019-11-01T19:27:24Z phoe: to classify this as undefined behaviour?
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2019-11-01T19:31:33Z beach: note to self, specify the behavior of the for-as-arithmetic subclause behavior better in WSCL.
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2019-11-01T19:36:30Z Posterdati: hi
2019-11-01T19:36:42Z Posterdati: still cffi is broken for openbsd
2019-11-01T19:37:11Z Posterdati: every revision that come out is still broken
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2019-11-01T19:39:55Z Posterdati: Posterdati: the c-toolchain code cannot get the value for $CC resulting in using cc which is NOT gcc
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2019-11-01T19:45:10Z ober: doesn't ports have a patch for that on obsd?
2019-11-01T19:49:27Z ober: Posterdati: just pkg_add gcc and set CC
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2019-11-01T20:00:55Z Kabriel: phoe: The very last sentence of 6.1.2.1.1 clarifies the exclusive range:
2019-11-01T20:01:01Z Kabriel: The range is exclusive if form3 increases or decreases var to the value of form2 without reaching that value; the loop keywords below and above provide exclusive limits. An inclusive limit allows var to attain the value of form2; to, downto, and upto provide inclusive limits.
2019-11-01T20:01:35Z Kabriel: test 1.39 should succeed, becuase x should *not* be set to 6
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2019-11-01T20:02:03Z Kabriel: but I think most implementations do it wrong; see https://youtu.be/ZJr81DtSwUc?t=204
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2019-11-01T20:06:11Z Kabriel: I think test 1.40 is very similar, except it is testing the inclusive ranges (to, downto, upto, etc), where the value of var should take on the value of form2.
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2019-11-01T20:06:39Z Kabriel: In SBCL it exceeds it, and I suspect this is the case in most implementations using a derivative of the MIT loop.
2019-11-01T20:08:47Z phoe: Kabriel: CCL ECL ABCL CLISP all fail this test.
2019-11-01T20:09:15Z phoe: Kabriel: thanks.
2019-11-01T20:09:17Z phoe: White_Flame: ^
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2019-11-01T20:09:23Z ober: phoe: which test?
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2019-11-01T20:16:03Z White_Flame: yeah, that's part of the conflicting part.  Does that talk about the value of the variable visible within the body?
2019-11-01T20:16:27Z White_Flame: or does that constraint extend out to the full lifecycle of the epilogue and such?
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2019-11-01T20:16:46Z White_Flame: because that paragraph starts with "In an iteration control clause, .."
2019-11-01T20:17:40Z White_Flame: and teh sentence before that one is also a very ambiguous one "That is, iteration continues until the value var is stepped to the exclusive or inclusive limit supplied by form2."
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2019-11-01T20:18:32Z White_Flame: especially if you take the inclusive forms, that sentence makes no sense regarding the intent
2019-11-01T20:19:09Z dlowe: stepped is usually not a transitive verb
2019-11-01T20:19:29Z phoe: ober: LOOP.1.39 ANSI-TEST
2019-11-01T20:19:35Z phoe: LOOP.1.40 as well I think
2019-11-01T20:19:36Z dlowe: or "stepped to" rather
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2019-11-01T20:25:52Z White_Flame: it also doesn't help that "iteration" doesn't seem to be explicitly defined, specifically with regards to the fenceposting of "iteration continues until"
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2019-11-01T20:30:31Z Kabriel: White_Flame: I see your point that it is ambiguous. I tend to think of "iteration" as the body (i.e. execution clauses). I would like to say that the epilogue should be included in that, too, but the terms aren't defined.
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2019-11-01T20:31:38Z White_Flame: my main point derives from a bottom-up reading of the mechanics and stepping, which would imply overshoot.  The top-down statements like this might be taken to imply no overshoot.
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2019-11-01T20:43:07Z Kabriel: White_Flame: I definitely agree from a mechanics standpoint; the test would always be done after the stepping of var, so the last value of var will not satisfy the test (i.e. in the epiloge). To do otherwise requires extra stuff.
2019-11-01T20:44:21Z Kabriel: I was thinking about this last week, which is how I stumbled on beach's ELS presentation.
2019-11-01T20:44:34Z White_Flame: the glossary entry for step as well: "to assign the variable a new value at the end of an iteration, in preparation for a new iteration."
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2019-11-01T20:44:50Z pfdietz: I have no strong emotional attachment to these tests.  I've conditionalized tests for lesser reason.
2019-11-01T20:45:45Z White_Flame: (which again begs what an "iteration" even means in that context.  One time around the LOOP body?  One pass through that clause?)
2019-11-01T20:45:49Z pfdietz: At the end of the day, it's up to the implementers to make their decisions.  They should, I think, document how they interpret this part of the standard.
2019-11-01T20:45:55Z Kabriel: Me either. I am interested to hear what beach has to say, since he implemented sicl loop facility differently.
2019-11-01T20:46:21Z pfdietz: I doubt it has any practical importance.
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2019-11-01T20:47:08Z phoe: me too
2019-11-01T20:47:20Z phoe: I'd just like it to be consistent across the Lisp universe
2019-11-01T20:47:33Z phoe: even if consistency means that we all agree for this to be undefined and therefore impossible to depend on
2019-11-01T20:49:12Z aeth: All of this talk of iteration makes me wonder why CL hasn't added iterators as an extension yet... or has it? Is that part of that extensible sequences thing that no one uses?
2019-11-01T20:49:48Z dlowe: I think SERIES is essentially that
2019-11-01T20:49:54Z aeth: In particular, though, it seems like it would be useful for using the implementation's sort algorithm
2019-11-01T20:50:20Z dlowe: one of my someday-maybe projects has always been to make an SERIES implementation that actually integrates gracefully into sbcl
2019-11-01T20:50:35Z dlowe: I'd probably never use loop again
2019-11-01T20:50:44Z pfdietz: Aeth:  ITERATE supports that sort of extension.
2019-11-01T20:51:40Z pfdietz: I know some people who prefer it to LOOP.    I'm annoyed it breaks Waters' COVER package, but that's mostly COVER's fault.
2019-11-01T20:53:18Z aeth: pfdietz: I want to like ITERATE, but it's not LOOP-compatible enough so I'm going to eventually write a DO-LOOP that at its base is basically just LOOP with parentheses added around the clauses and keywords required (rather than accepting any symbol package)
2019-11-01T20:53:29Z aeth: Sort of a compromise between the two approaches.
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2019-11-01T20:55:37Z aeth: pfdietz: Does ITERATE support sorting? #'sort is pretty weak. It doesn't even accept start and end points.
2019-11-01T20:56:04Z pfdietz: What do you mean by "support sorting"?
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2019-11-01T21:00:22Z aeth: pfdietz: An iteration macro could support sorting in a range, at least on vectors, perhaps even composing with the other functionality to determine the start and end range instead of having to know the indices in advance... and combined with iterators, it would be able to sort arbitrary things, not just the built in (whole) sequences that #'sort does.
2019-11-01T21:00:37Z aeth: Slightly unrelated to pure iteration, but they usually do have things like sum, anyway.
2019-11-01T21:01:54Z pfdietz: That doesn't really seem to be what ITERATE is about.    I suppose merging of two generators could be an interesting capability.
2019-11-01T21:02:41Z pfdietz: Or collecting into a sequence, destructively.
2019-11-01T21:02:45Z aeth: Well, maybe I am looking at it differently, but to me it seems like the natural extension in functionality past things like summation.
2019-11-01T21:02:54Z aeth: And, yes, collect.
2019-11-01T21:03:21Z pfdietz: So, collecting into a heap, then serializing at the end?
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2019-11-01T21:03:56Z pfdietz: Some sort of accumulator abstraction.
2019-11-01T21:04:01Z aeth: Possibly. Perhaps the correct way to look at things is (1) providing the primitives for vector and list (and arbitrary iterator) sort and (2) providing the extensibility so that it can be added in
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2019-11-01T21:04:17Z aeth: rather than viewing it as a basic iteration in itself
2019-11-01T21:04:44Z pfdietz: Like making a header cons cell with tail pointer for RPLACD accumulation of a list, and returning the actual head at the end.
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2019-11-01T21:05:15Z phoe: well
2019-11-01T21:05:22Z phoe: I am exhausted
2019-11-01T21:05:53Z phoe: pfdietz: should we comment out those LOOP tests with the rationale that the spec is contradictory and the behaviour is undefined, then?
2019-11-01T21:06:12Z phoe: I'd suggest commenting them out, because someone in the future might notice this and reignite the religious dispute
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2019-11-01T21:07:33Z pfdietz: There's also a note facility for marking contentious tests.
2019-11-01T21:07:57Z pfdietz: (inspired by Bruno Haible's feedback r.e. clisp)
2019-11-01T21:08:13Z pfdietz: aeth:  ITERATE does allow one to define new gathering clauses
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2019-11-01T21:12:28Z phoe: pfdietz: oh? What is it?
2019-11-01T21:13:42Z pfdietz: In the version of RT that's with ansi-test, see the macro DEFNOTE.
2019-11-01T21:13:57Z pfdietz: There is a file notes.lsp that defines various notes.
2019-11-01T21:14:36Z pfdietz: When a test is defined, notes can be attached.   The function RT:DISABLE-NOTE allows tests with that note to be disabled and not run by RT:DO-TESTS
2019-11-01T21:15:31Z phoe: OK.
2019-11-01T21:18:05Z phoe: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/issues/15
2019-11-01T21:18:53Z pfdietz: I don't know who's in charge of that repo, to be honest.
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2019-11-01T21:20:41Z phoe: "Merge branch 'print-array' into 'master'. Daniel Kochmański authored 1 day ago"
2019-11-01T21:20:49Z phoe: well, we at least know who has push access
2019-11-01T21:21:13Z phoe: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/commits/master lists some recent activity
2019-11-01T21:21:39Z no-defun-allowed: Just a little exclamation of disbelief: does GitHub seriously not notify you when someone creates an issue or PR?
2019-11-01T21:22:22Z no-defun-allowed: I pinged the maintainer (wrote @foo) and they merged my changes to heroku-buildpack-cl.
2019-11-01T21:22:44Z phoe: should notify you by mail and its notification system
2019-11-01T21:22:55Z phoe: I get mails for all comments and merges and opens/closes
2019-11-01T21:23:17Z phoe: check your notification settings and spam folders and whether you didn't un-watch the issue after making it
2019-11-01T21:23:50Z no-defun-allowed: All on their end. I think I disabled emails for everything, but I should still get it in GitHub.
2019-11-01T21:24:53Z no-defun-allowed: There's individual check boxes for "email" and "web" notifications. Weird.
2019-11-01T21:29:09Z phoe: web notifications are https://github.com/notifications
2019-11-01T21:29:12Z phoe: mail is mail
2019-11-01T21:30:04Z sjl: pfdietz: aeth: thanks for nerd-sniping me http://paste.stevelosh.com/041a96442fa3f41de3b78f1b15a2d6c90cb59c92
2019-11-01T21:30:16Z no-defun-allowed figured, but seems odd to allow configuring both rather than, say, choosing both/web only/none
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2019-11-01T21:31:21Z pfdietz: sjl:  :)
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2019-11-01T21:39:15Z sjl: definitely more efficient to do it with a heap though
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2019-11-01T21:45:44Z sjl: http://paste.stevelosh.com/779e5be9656a48b75c7b8faa1a1dd4af462abafd would be faster
2019-11-01T21:47:16Z sjl: seems odd that pileup doesn't have heap-vector and heap-list or something like them built in
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2019-11-01T22:04:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Has anyone written up an introduction to designing protocols as collections of interacting generic functions?
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2019-11-01T22:16:39Z phoe: CLIM2 manual has some
2019-11-01T22:16:52Z phoe: also beach's http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf
2019-11-01T22:17:18Z phoe: it is somewhat short on description and theoretical but perhaps could be of use to you
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2019-11-01T22:20:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm trying to find resources to show my coworkers how to design programs using multimethods
2019-11-01T22:20:24Z phoe: 1) find an action that you want to do
2019-11-01T22:20:30Z phoe: e.g. frobnicate
2019-11-01T22:20:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: We're using Clojure, but I've found that a lot of these CL resources are really helpful when writing Clojure
2019-11-01T22:20:56Z phoe: 2) find all prerequisite objects that are needed to properly frobnicate - e.g. foo, bar, and baz
2019-11-01T22:21:26Z phoe: 3) (defgeneric frobnicate (foo bar baz ...)) where ... is any optional/keyword parameters and data that the function will/may need
2019-11-01T22:21:51Z phoe: 4) specialize for all valid class combinations of foo, bar and baz
2019-11-01T22:21:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I'm more interested in system-level design
2019-11-01T22:22:02Z phoe: oh, I see - that's a level above
2019-11-01T22:22:43Z phoe: you could use existing materials for system level design, except that many design patterns go out of the window since Lisp has better ways of solving those
2019-11-01T22:22:55Z phoe: and a lot of design patterns were made to work around foo.bar(baz) style of method calling
2019-11-01T22:23:02Z phoe: where methods are on classes and not on GFs
2019-11-01T22:23:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, but I think what Lisp does have is this concept of defining your system in terms of a set of generic functions
2019-11-01T22:23:20Z phoe: https://norvig.com/design-patterns/design-patterns.pdf is one resource for exactly this - it describes some patterns that CLOS renders obsolete and/or modifies in a significant way
2019-11-01T22:23:43Z phoe: oh I see - yes
2019-11-01T22:23:47Z phoe: CLIM2 manual has some data on this
2019-11-01T22:23:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: So that, for example, you can specialize the functions one way for testing and then another way for produciton
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2019-11-01T22:23:59Z phoe: basically, it describes things like protocol classes and protocol functions
2019-11-01T22:24:31Z phoe: protocol classes must be instantiated and protocol functions are GFs whose methods may specialize on concrete classes
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2019-11-01T22:30:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: thanks
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2019-11-01T22:32:46Z phoe: this is kinda equivalent to Java interfaces and interface methods
2019-11-01T22:33:01Z phoe: except obviously the Java way does not know or use GFs
2019-11-01T22:37:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, and ultimately results in ungainly system design because of Java's type system
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2019-11-01T22:41:17Z phoe: yes
2019-11-01T22:41:55Z phoe: but Java being a pile of #<unreadable object> isn't the topic here - was just trying to make an analogy
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2019-11-01T22:47:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah
2019-11-01T22:47:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just hesitate to compare anything to Java because the people I'm talking to like to criticize Java
2019-11-01T22:49:43Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: mixins are another important piece that make CLOS so amenable to protocol design.
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2019-11-01T22:55:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
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2019-11-01T23:06:16Z pfdietz: fiddlerwoaroof: you'll also want to consider uses of method combination
2019-11-01T23:07:51Z phoe: pfdietz: if he wants to explain that to his coworkers then that would be not the first nor the second or third thing he'd speak about
2019-11-01T23:08:09Z pfdietz: True
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2019-11-01T23:20:27Z no-defun-allowed: pfdietz: Method combinations are no good if you're working a language without them.
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2019-11-01T23:33:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: pfdietz: yeah, there's a library that implements CLOS-style generic functions for Clojure, but I think that's a bridge too far for now
2019-11-01T23:33:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, method combinations will make people think of AspectJ, which isn't good where I work
2019-11-01T23:34:23Z phoe: (it isn't good regardless of where one works)
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2019-11-02T01:48:32Z pjb: LOOP: make it fast, or make it correct!
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2019-11-02T02:36:01Z sahara3: buenas
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2019-11-02T02:41:17Z ebrasca: pjb: I am sure you can make fast and correct.
2019-11-02T02:41:55Z no-defun-allowed: "fast and correct" is why we're here.
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2019-11-02T03:18:47Z Josh_2: I have a slynk server that was working but now whenever I try to connect my emacs just freezes, any ideas?
2019-11-02T03:20:41Z Josh_2: It worked initially and now it just freezes each time I try to connect :O
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2019-11-02T03:38:16Z Josh_2: OH wait
2019-11-02T03:38:30Z Josh_2: It's one of those things where I was just doing something REALLY stupid
2019-11-02T03:38:31Z Josh_2: xD
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2019-11-02T04:47:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-02T04:57:23Z Josh_2: Morning beach
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2019-11-02T05:14:34Z LdBeth: hello
2019-11-02T05:15:09Z beach: Hello LdBeth.
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2019-11-02T07:09:26Z jackdaniel: so what was the yesterday's conclusion? undefined beahvior, use do or something more sophisticated? :)
2019-11-02T07:10:05Z beach: I don't think there was a conclusion.
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2019-11-02T07:11:24Z jackdaniel: heh, I now see mail from gitlab.cl.net that phoe proposes to disable tests as undefined behavior
2019-11-02T07:11:27Z beach: For WSCL, I am debating whether to explicitly specify that the behavior is undefined or whether to define the behavior.  And if the latter, what alternative to opt for.
2019-11-02T07:12:05Z ck_: I couldn't attend the debate, is there a short summary of the behavior in question, other than "loop" ?
2019-11-02T07:12:25Z jackdaniel: ck_: (loop for i from 0 to 5 finally (print x))
2019-11-02T07:12:29Z jackdaniel: shall it print 5 or 6
2019-11-02T07:12:48Z beach: Nice summary.
2019-11-02T07:12:57Z jackdaniel: thank you
2019-11-02T07:13:14Z ck_: I see, thanks
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2019-11-02T07:16:27Z jackdaniel: beach: if it were a vote for a preferred alternative I'd say that "6" is more useful; it makes the mental model of what's going on easier: increment always goes after the iteration and finally goes after all iterations
2019-11-02T07:16:30Z aeth: the other part of the debate iirc was :of-type (integer 0 5)
2019-11-02T07:17:35Z aeth: (loop for i of-type (integer 0 5) from 0 to 5 do (print i)) ; should this give a type-error when 6 is reached even though 6 is only used in terminating the loop?
2019-11-02T07:17:43Z beach: jackdaniel: I was going to say what aeth just said, or something simlar.
2019-11-02T07:18:16Z beach: But I am not going to participate in a new debate all over again.
2019-11-02T07:18:35Z jackdaniel: right, I've left it out because of-type seems to have clear semantics: if we choose to increment x to 6 that should signal a condition, if we choose not to increment to 6 then it will meet criteria
2019-11-02T07:18:50Z ck_: just as I didn't intend to provoke one. Thank you for the summaries though.
2019-11-02T07:19:05Z jackdaniel: (in safe code)
2019-11-02T07:22:49Z aeth: jackdaniel: well, I had to bring it up because if it's unspecified then maybe some implementations would choose both interpretations, i.e. unless the varaible is referred to in a finally (in its final, one above, form) do not have the type-error
2019-11-02T07:23:17Z jackdaniel: good point, thank you for bringing it up
2019-11-02T07:24:06Z aeth: s/varaible/variable/
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2019-11-02T07:51:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd be surprised if that didn't print 5
2019-11-02T07:51:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I see I missed the fun :)
2019-11-02T07:52:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's always interesting to see how many different interpretations of a specification arise
2019-11-02T07:53:06Z beach: It appears that we will have no choice but to reopen the debate.
2019-11-02T07:54:12Z LdBeth: what about use something like a variable so the user can control the expansion?
2019-11-02T07:54:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I encounter this semi-regularly at work, where we plan out a project and then, when implementation-time comes around, the team implementing often realize that there still remain at least two interpretations of the plan
2019-11-02T07:55:47Z beach: Yes, this is a know problem and indicates the limitations of the waterfall model.
2019-11-02T07:56:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: We're an "agile" shop and we try to avoid planning as much as possible :)
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2019-11-02T08:29:54Z pjb: beach: didn't you argue at els 2016 that MIT loop was bugged on this point?  That it should print 5?
2019-11-02T08:30:11Z pjb: beach: I'd tend to agree with you.
2019-11-02T08:32:27Z pjb: I would note that this is related to C for(unsigned char i=0;i<=MAX_UCHAR;i++), which if not compiled carefully, can be an infinite loop…
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2019-11-02T08:51:36Z beach: pjb: Yes, that sounds plausible, and that's how I implemented it for SICL LOOP, like I said.
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2019-11-02T08:52:40Z beach: pjb: But I am not going to participate in a reopened debate.
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2019-11-02T10:11:36Z phoe: well shit, this isn't the thing I wanted to wake up to when I went to #lisp
2019-11-02T10:11:45Z phoe: good morning everyone
2019-11-02T10:17:06Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning phoe
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2019-11-02T10:22:36Z beach: Hello phoe.  What are you referring to?
2019-11-02T10:23:59Z phoe: It's kinda amusing
2019-11-02T10:29:43Z phoe: Yesterday I was trying to figure out how to treat the LOOP issue for a long while and it left me kinda exhausted
2019-11-02T10:30:00Z phoe: I was hopeful that the conclusion of "let's treat it as undefined" would be decent enough
2019-11-02T10:30:55Z phoe: Imagine my face when I read the #lisp backlog this morning
2019-11-02T10:31:24Z pjb: phoe: well, since all implementation are not conforming on this point, as a programmer you need to consider it as undefined, until they're all corrected.  Ie. do not use the loop variables in the finally clause!  But as an implementer, you need to correct it.
2019-11-02T10:31:58Z phoe: pjb: the thing is there's no consensus on whether 5 is the conforming answer
2019-11-02T10:32:24Z phoe: even after reading the sacred ANSI CL scriptures
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2019-11-02T10:43:12Z phoe: my question is, if it's practically impossible to agree what should the answer be than should we agree on an ANSI-TEST that tests this at all
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2019-11-02T10:45:02Z White_Flame: its your very own "is the dress white and gold, or blue and black".  Congratulations
2019-11-02T10:45:40Z phoe: :(
2019-11-02T10:45:52Z phoe: all I wanted is for CCL to fail fewer ANSI-TESTs
2019-11-02T10:45:54Z phoe: and look what I've done
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2019-11-02T10:47:32Z pjb: Perhaps we'd need a comitee of implementers to decide these matters.  At least a mail-list.  But where all implementers, free and commercial would participate.
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2019-11-02T10:49:32Z phoe: did you just say "herding lispers"
2019-11-02T10:50:46Z pjb: phoe: I'm wondering what the commercial implementations do on this?
2019-11-02T10:50:52Z pjb: (on this loop)
2019-11-02T10:50:54Z phoe: if we are down to implementations, is anyone around with a working cl-all? I'd need to see what cl-all says on the issue
2019-11-02T10:50:58Z phoe: pjb: exactly my thought now
2019-11-02T10:51:12Z phoe: run the code on all implementations and see what they return
2019-11-02T10:51:22Z phoe: so far we know that SBCL CCL ECL CLISP ABCL return 6
2019-11-02T10:51:24Z pjb: phoe: 6 for sbcl ccl abcl ecl, which are the implementations I have currently running on macOS.
2019-11-02T10:51:33Z pjb: yes, and clisp.
2019-11-02T10:52:19Z pjb: phoe: now, we may consider that, in a way, the implementation is free to set the loop variable to "anything" it wants in the finally, and that the bug is in the user giving a wrong type.
2019-11-02T10:52:36Z phoe: pjb: that is another issue
2019-11-02T10:52:38Z Shinmera: if that were true the type would always be wrong
2019-11-02T10:52:46Z phoe: whether it is permitted to define the type in FOR-AS
2019-11-02T10:52:47Z Shinmera: because you can't know "anything"
2019-11-02T10:52:55Z phoe: (loop for x of-type foo from a to b)
2019-11-02T10:53:04Z phoe: whether it is permitted for the user to do OF-TYPE in FOR
2019-11-02T10:53:12Z pjb: phoe: I wonder why the implementation don't set it to NIL for finally.  for x to 10 finally (return x) could return 20, or 12, if the implementation thinks it's efficient to add more than the by, and to remove some before next loop…
2019-11-02T10:53:14Z phoe: the implementation would know better after all
2019-11-02T10:53:45Z Shinmera: phoe: how would it know better if the bounds are dynamic (but only static within a user-known range)
2019-11-02T10:53:52Z pjb: that's basically my point, with respect to type declarations! The implementation knows better!
2019-11-02T10:54:13Z pjb: Shinmera: it can infer.
2019-11-02T10:54:23Z phoe: Shinmera: the implementation can compute it - from 1 to 10 by 5 can be at most (integer 1 14)
2019-11-02T10:54:35Z Shinmera: phoe: note I said the bounds are /dynamic/
2019-11-02T10:54:43Z phoe: how can they be dynamic
2019-11-02T10:54:51Z Shinmera: uh, you pass a variable for the bounds?
2019-11-02T10:54:59Z phoe: in (from a to b by c) they are only computed once I think
2019-11-02T10:55:01Z pjb: (loop for i to (foo z)) the implementation can compute the type of (foo z), and know if it's bound or not.
2019-11-02T10:55:03Z phoe: or aren't they?
2019-11-02T10:55:11Z Shinmera: phoe: yes, but it doesn't know them at compile-time.
2019-11-02T10:55:34Z phoe: well shit
2019-11-02T10:55:53Z phoe: it could in theory do a dispatch based on the compiled versions of the code it prepared aheat of time
2019-11-02T10:55:56Z phoe: ahead*
2019-11-02T10:55:58Z phoe: but I don't think anyone does that
2019-11-02T10:56:34Z phoe: but then if the user does OF-TYPE but passes values not of that type it's not the problem of the implementation
2019-11-02T10:57:21Z Shinmera: right, so the issue is what does the implementation set it to?
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2019-11-02T10:57:39Z Shinmera: if it can set it to literally whatever, then of-type is entirely useless because you could never pass a type that is correct other than T
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2019-11-02T10:58:00Z phoe: does the specification permit OF-TYPE in FOR-AS clauses?
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2019-11-02T10:58:05Z phoe: I guess yes
2019-11-02T11:01:51Z pjb: Yes it does.
2019-11-02T11:02:01Z pjb: for-as-arithmetic::= var [type-spec] for-as-arithmetic-subclause
2019-11-02T11:03:03Z pjb: all occurences of var in the syntax in declaration place are followed by [type-spec].
2019-11-02T11:04:53Z phoe: So what is the user supposed to do in case of (loop for x of-type fixnum from 0 to most-positive-fixnum)
2019-11-02T11:05:00Z phoe: is the implementation allowed to allocate X as fixnum
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2019-11-02T11:05:11Z phoe: or will it try to step it to (1+ most-positive-fixnum)
2019-11-02T11:05:25Z phoe: which might cause havoc in code compiled with safety 0
2019-11-02T11:05:31Z phoe: since the above is theoretically all conforming ANSI CL
2019-11-02T11:06:01Z phoe: so it should work under all circumstances
2019-11-02T11:07:12Z phoe: because if the answer to the original question is 6 then the above code does not allow X to be a fixnum which makes it non-conforming with ANSI CL
2019-11-02T11:09:20Z pjb: phoe: the question is more general: what use does the implementation make of type declarations.  If it uses them to effectly allocate low-level memory for untagged/unboxed data, then the secondary question is what happens when you (incf x) to go beyond most-positive-fixnum (or any other internal maximum of the data type used): does it do checks? If yes, then what optimization is that? If the check fails, it has to allocate new mem
2019-11-02T11:09:21Z pjb: store the result or what?  Or does it blindly use modulo arithmetic and fail lamentably?
2019-11-02T11:10:22Z pjb: In any case, it sounds very silly to do such a thing (allocate memory for unboxed data).
2019-11-02T11:10:28Z pjb: Ariane-5 etc…
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2019-11-02T11:13:44Z phoe: (lambda () (loop for x of-type fixnum from (1- most-positive-fixnum) to most-positive-fixnum do (progn) finally (print x)))
2019-11-02T11:13:53Z phoe: on SBCL with safety 0, this function loops
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2019-11-02T11:13:59Z phoe: on CCL with safety 0, this function loops too
2019-11-02T11:14:47Z phoe: on ECL with safety 0, this function returns most-negative-fixnum
2019-11-02T11:15:41Z pjb: (let ((x  (1- most-positive-fixnum)))  (if (< x (1- most-positive-fixnum)) (incf x) 'done)) #| --> done |#
2019-11-02T11:16:17Z pjb: But of course, this is less optimized, since you have a test, a subtraction and an addition, instead of an addition and a test that fails…
2019-11-02T11:16:35Z phoe: on ABCL with safety 0, this function loops
2019-11-02T11:16:48Z phoe: I don't know, am I supposed to open bugtickets on everyone now?
2019-11-02T11:17:18Z phoe: (declaim (optimize (safety 0))) (lambda () (loop for x of-type fixnum from (1- most-positive-fixnum) to most-positive-fixnum do (progn) finally (print x)))
2019-11-02T11:17:24Z phoe: pjb: could you test on clisp?
2019-11-02T11:17:31Z pjb: phoe: yes, they are implementation bugs.
2019-11-02T11:17:55Z pjb: infinite loop.
2019-11-02T11:18:40Z pjb: Oops, sorry. It returns: 1099511627776 = (1+ most-positive-fixnum)
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2019-11-02T11:18:54Z pjb: (I forgot to close the parenthesis).
2019-11-02T11:19:46Z phoe: so it doesn't make use of the fixnum declaration
2019-11-02T11:19:49Z phoe: I see
2019-11-02T11:21:12Z pjb: perhaps it does, but it checks.
2019-11-02T11:21:33Z phoe: or this
2019-11-02T11:22:52Z pjb: The thing is that the optimization works 1152921504606846974/1152921504606846975 of the time…
2019-11-02T11:23:20Z pjb: ie. 99.999999999999999913%
2019-11-02T11:23:46Z phoe: I don't understand, do we want to be fast or are we correct
2019-11-02T11:24:22Z phoe: the same optimization works with a similar probability in C
2019-11-02T11:25:32Z pjb: If the implementation can optimize some specific integer ranges (eg. 0..255, or -128..127, or etc), then it can do it, but it needs to be able to determine the type specified by the user, and process the last element of the range specially.
2019-11-02T11:26:50Z pjb: :of-type (integer 0 5) should not pose any problem, since 3 bits can store up to 7. So internally x can be 6, and the user blamed for specifying the wrong type, or the final value be adjusted.
2019-11-02T11:27:04Z phoe: but then finally (print x) accesses X which was declared to be a fixnum
2019-11-02T11:27:09Z phoe: so it cannot be 1+ most-positive-fixnum
2019-11-02T11:27:19Z pjb: :of-type (unsigned-byte 1) :to 255 and similar should be processed specially, for the last iteration.
2019-11-02T11:28:35Z pjb: phoe: yes. Which is why I don't think that x=6 is a good thing for :to. But since x can go way beyond with (loop for x by 3 to 10 finally (return x)) #| --> 12 |# perhaps we should allow final x > max. and the user :of-type is wrong.
2019-11-02T11:30:10Z phoe: how can the user know that the type declaration is incorrect
2019-11-02T11:30:14Z phoe: all they have is the external interface to LOOP
2019-11-02T11:30:43Z phoe: if the implementation needs to make X any type it requires to then it should be impossible to provide OF-TYPE to that variable
2019-11-02T11:30:55Z pjb: the user should know that 0+3k>10 for the last k…
2019-11-02T11:31:12Z phoe: because what if the implementation requires it to be a bignum but the user tells it to be a fixnum
2019-11-02T11:31:21Z pjb: (loop for x of-type (integer 0 12) by 3 to 10 finally (return x))
2019-11-02T11:31:37Z phoe: and also what Shinmera said, what if the bounds are variable
2019-11-02T11:31:56Z pjb: phoe: it may be because the programs runs on a different implementation with a different most-positive-fixnum. Then the implementation must signal the type error.
2019-11-02T11:32:58Z pjb: And if the bound are variable, either you know they're within  most-positive-fixnum or you don't. If you don't, don't declare it fixnum…
2019-11-02T11:33:12Z phoe: (loop for x of-type fixnum from (1- most-positive-fixnum) to most-positive-fixnum do (progn) finally (print x)) is theoretically within fixnum
2019-11-02T11:33:50Z pjb: Yep. We're back to the value of x in finally. IMO, it should be most-positive-fixnum.
2019-11-02T11:34:05Z pjb: but what about (loop for x of-type fixnum from (1- most-positive-fixnum) by 3 to most-positive-fixnum do (progn) finally (print x)) ?
2019-11-02T11:34:33Z phoe: in that case it looks like it would have to be (1- most-positive-fixnum) by the same logic
2019-11-02T11:34:35Z pjb: The last iteration is with  (1- most-positive-fixnum) so in finally x =  (1- most-positive-fixnum) is consistent.
2019-11-02T11:34:45Z phoe: since this is the lowest value that doesn't violate the type constraint
2019-11-02T11:34:48Z pjb: But as you can see, (+  3 (1- most-positive-fixnum)) is not a fixnum.
2019-11-02T11:35:08Z pjb: So the implementation must not store that into x.
2019-11-02T11:35:12Z phoe: correct
2019-11-02T11:35:12Z pjb: It needs to use a temp variable.
2019-11-02T11:35:18Z pjb: Or to test before computing it.
2019-11-02T11:35:32Z pjb: In both cases, adding the type declarations slows down the progfram.
2019-11-02T11:35:39Z phoe: but it makes no sense from the optimization point of view if the implementation has a temp variable of type integer
2019-11-02T11:35:50Z phoe: since we could just have X as an integer then
2019-11-02T11:35:53Z pjb: But it makes it correct and consistent.
2019-11-02T11:36:14Z pjb: It changes only on the store.
2019-11-02T11:36:15Z phoe: since we do bignum arithmetic anyway then we could drop the fixnum variable altogether and ignore the OF-TYPE
2019-11-02T11:36:37Z phoe: since doing integer + fixnum is slower than doing just integer
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2019-11-02T11:39:06Z phoe: or do we just close our eyes and pretend not to notice that we are doing the same shit as C when it comes to edge cases
2019-11-02T11:39:30Z pjb: correctness and consistency!
2019-11-02T11:41:04Z phoe: this means that setting X to 6 in the original question is incorrect in general and all implementations known to me right now are buggy
2019-11-02T11:41:36Z phoe: all I wanted was to fix some ccl ansi-test bugs, and look where I am now
2019-11-02T11:42:51Z pjb: phoe: more specifically, I could not find in clhs the specification of what value should be bound to the loop variables in the finally clause.
2019-11-02T11:44:11Z phoe: pjb: neither could I. The above conclusion comes from the fact that it cannot be safely bound to 1+ most-positive-fixnum if it is declared to be a fixnum and, from the user point of view, it looks like it's a fixnum all the time.
2019-11-02T11:44:26Z pjb: phoe: so we must decide. If we decide on the value of the last iteration, then things are clear.  If not, then it will be mostly implementation dependent. (Again, setting it to NIL would be a valid choice. For example, the variables can be bound to NIL before the loop starts…
2019-11-02T11:44:52Z pjb: So, the value of the last iteration is the best choice.
2019-11-02T11:45:28Z phoe: hm
2019-11-02T11:45:40Z phoe: as for the value in FINALLY I think I have found the answer somewhere
2019-11-02T11:46:06Z phoe: the variables are still available in FINALLY since this is the loop epilogue
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2019-11-02T11:46:26Z phoe: and setting a variable to NIL is invalid if the user provides OF-TYPE
2019-11-02T11:46:36Z phoe: (loop for x of-type integer ...)
2019-11-02T11:46:42Z phoe: X must not be NIL in that case
2019-11-02T11:47:07Z pjb: phoe: (let (x) (declare (oftype x))  (setf x start) (…)) would be wrong too.
2019-11-02T11:47:56Z phoe: pjb: correct, LOOP implementations don't seem to do that though
2019-11-02T11:47:59Z phoe: (and thank goodness)
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2019-11-02T11:50:41Z phoe: pjb: 6.1.1.4 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_aad.htm
2019-11-02T11:51:06Z phoe: "A loop macro form expands into a form containing one or more binding forms (that establish bindings of loop variables) and a block and a tagbody (that express a looping control structure). The variables established in loop are bound as if by let or lambda. "
2019-11-02T11:51:19Z phoe: this means that everything inside LOOP (prologue, body, epilogue) is in scope of the bindings
2019-11-02T11:51:30Z phoe: so they have access to the variables
2019-11-02T11:51:42Z phoe: so the epilogue is able to access the variables
2019-11-02T11:58:19Z phoe: I kind of do not believe that this is the end of the argument
2019-11-02T11:58:38Z phoe: it's too easy
2019-11-02T11:58:44Z phoe: there's gotta be a catch somewhere
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2019-11-02T12:20:00Z phoe: if not then I'
2019-11-02T12:20:13Z phoe: then I'll write this down in some sorta blogpost and throw it at the implementations
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2019-11-02T12:22:24Z pfdietz: That the variables are bound once should be detectable, by use of closures.
2019-11-02T12:22:57Z phoe: What do you mean?
2019-11-02T12:23:19Z pfdietz: (mapcar #'funcall (loop for x from 1 to 5 collect (lambda () x))) ==> (5 5 5 5 5) ;; maybe?
2019-11-02T12:23:44Z phoe: oh, hm
2019-11-02T12:23:44Z pfdietz: As opposed to a separate binding of X for each iteration.
2019-11-02T12:24:13Z phoe: yes, I see
2019-11-02T12:31:32Z pjb: pfdietz: this is implementation dependent, you could get (1 2 3 4 5). In that case, the variable in the finally may be yet a different binding.
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2019-11-02T12:40:28Z pfdietz: I think it's clear from the spec that stepping involves assignment, not binding.
2019-11-02T12:41:21Z pfdietz: "step v.t., n. 1. v.t. (an iteration variable) to assign the variable a new value at the end of an iteration, in preparation for a new iteration."
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2019-11-02T12:55:52Z phoe: In safe code, must (let ((x 0)) (declare (fixnum 0)) (setq x :zero)) always signal an error? Or are the consequences undefined?
2019-11-02T12:56:09Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/d_type.htm tells me, 2. During the execution of any setq of the declared variable within the scope of the declaration, the consequences are undefined if the newly assigned value of the declared variable is not of the declared type.
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2019-11-02T12:56:19Z phoe: and this implies undefined behaviour
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2019-11-02T12:58:46Z phoe: I thought that in safe code this mandated a TYPE-ERROR
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2019-11-02T13:02:33Z pfdietz: No.
2019-11-02T13:02:59Z pfdietz: SBCL interprets declarations as assertions in safe code, but that's not mandated.
2019-11-02T13:04:51Z phoe: so having a DECLARE TYPE in safe code means that, uhh
2019-11-02T13:04:59Z phoe: the code isn't safe? or am I reading this wrong
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2019-11-02T13:05:37Z phoe: or is this the kind of mistake that safe code is not meant to protect against
2019-11-02T13:05:53Z phoe: (which would be counter-intuitive)
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2019-11-02T13:08:11Z phoe: this implies that (locally (declare (optimize safety)) (let ((x 0)) (declare (fixnum 0)) (setq x :zero))) is safe code
2019-11-02T13:08:26Z phoe: even though it's UB
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2019-11-02T13:11:50Z phoe: uh I mean (locally (declare (optimize safety)) (let ((x 0)) (declare (fixnum x)) (setq x :zero) x))
2019-11-02T13:11:59Z Shinmera: Might just be ID, not UB :)
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2019-11-02T13:14:09Z phoe: ID?
2019-11-02T13:14:54Z Shinmera: Implementation Dependent
2019-11-02T13:15:12Z phoe: yes - I am looking for the passage in the standard that says so
2019-11-02T13:15:21Z phoe: I cannot find what happens if a type declaration is violated
2019-11-02T13:15:30Z phoe: other than the UB mention linked above
2019-11-02T13:15:48Z phoe: "the consequences are undefined if the newly assigned value of the declared variable is not of the declared type.
2019-11-02T13:18:10Z phoe: But clhs 3.3.1 says, "In general, an implementation is free to ignore declaration specifiers except for the declaration, notinline, safety, and special declaration specifiers."
2019-11-02T13:18:17Z phoe: So type declarations can freely be ignored.
2019-11-02T13:18:29Z phoe: So if the implementation does not ignore it, then, uhhh. It's implementation-dependent what happens?...
2019-11-02T13:20:44Z pjb: phoe: what is implementation dependent is how the implementation generates the code.  But the semantics of type declarations are rather clear.
2019-11-02T13:22:11Z pfdietz: The difference between implementation dependent and undefined is that a conforming program may have code with the former behavior, but not the latter
2019-11-02T13:22:29Z phoe: pjb: I need the standard's words on it. Is the above ALWAYS supposed to generate a runtime error in safe code or not?
2019-11-02T13:22:32Z phoe: That is my question.
2019-11-02T13:22:33Z pfdietz: clhs 1.5.2
2019-11-02T13:22:33Z specbot: Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_eb.htm
2019-11-02T13:22:51Z pfdietz: Undefined behavior says literally anything might happen.
2019-11-02T13:22:56Z phoe: Yes, correct
2019-11-02T13:23:03Z pfdietz: Even in safe code.
2019-11-02T13:23:29Z phoe: I see - so this is undefined.
2019-11-02T13:24:33Z phoe: So... LOOP with OF-TYPE invokes undefined behaviour if the OF-TYPE is incorrect.
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2019-11-02T13:24:51Z phoe: The question therefore is: if we loop from 0 to most-positive-fixnum, is this allowed to be OF-TYPE FIXNUM or not?
2019-11-02T13:25:36Z pfdietz: Which gets back to: is the var incremented past the upper bound, or not?
2019-11-02T13:25:39Z phoe: Because if yes, then the variable's value must not be (1+ most-positive-fixnum) in epilogue.
2019-11-02T13:26:09Z phoe: And if it is (1+ m-p-f) then OF-TYPE FIXNUM is invalid which is contrary to user expectations I think.
2019-11-02T13:26:13Z pfdietz: Personally, it would be more useful if the var's value in the epilogue is at most the upper bound (for positive stepping)
2019-11-02T13:26:26Z phoe: Since the user wants literally to (DO-FIXNUMS ...)
2019-11-02T13:26:34Z phoe: or rather DO-ALL-FIXNUMS
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2019-11-02T13:28:16Z Shinmera: I agree with pfdietz, in general.
2019-11-02T13:28:24Z Shinmera: (Even for other cases like ON and IN)
2019-11-02T13:29:28Z pfdietz: the IN case is interesting.   (loop for x of-type foo in list-of-foos do ….)   What happens when the list is empty?
2019-11-02T13:29:32Z Shinmera: Eg having the last cons in the epilogue for ON stepping allows doing easy modification of the tail without having to do your own stepping.
2019-11-02T13:30:17Z jackdaniel: clearly x must be 42 then
2019-11-02T13:30:17Z pfdietz: The wording about initializing the var to a value that is of the type... I don't think I tested for that?
2019-11-02T13:30:22Z Shinmera: Good question.
2019-11-02T13:30:57Z jackdaniel: and more seriously it should do the same thing as for implicit initialization of structures with slots of specified types
2019-11-02T13:31:16Z jackdaniel: (imo)
2019-11-02T13:32:29Z pjb: (loop for x in '(1 2 3) finally (return x)) #| --> 3 |#  See, last iteration value.
2019-11-02T13:33:05Z pfdietz: "If the optional type-spec argument is supplied for the variable var, but there is no related expression to be evaluated, var is initialized to an appropriate default value for its type. For example, for the types t, number, and float, the default values are nil, 0, and 0.0 respectively. "
2019-11-02T13:33:21Z pfdietz: (that's for local variable initializations, not iteration variables, but the question remains)
2019-11-02T13:33:31Z pjb: What for (integer 33 42) ?
2019-11-02T13:33:54Z pfdietz: (looks up "appropriate" in the glossary)
2019-11-02T13:34:04Z Shinmera: pfdietz: What for (satisfies foo)? :)
2019-11-02T13:34:08Z Shinmera: *pjb
2019-11-02T13:34:10Z pjb: !
2019-11-02T13:34:12Z pjb: :-
2019-11-02T13:34:14Z pjb: )
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2019-11-02T13:35:36Z pfdietz: Makes me think there should be a bottom value, which is undefined to compute anything on, or even compare, but that is formally in every type (even NIL).
2019-11-02T13:35:43Z Shinmera muses about defining a predicate that tests for a specific algorithm and using this to have the compiler generate an appropriate program as an appropriate default
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2019-11-02T13:36:21Z pfdietz: (let ((x bottom))   #| you better assign to x before referencing it |# …)
2019-11-02T13:36:54Z jackdaniel: one could argue that if a valid default is not known compiler should signal an error
2019-11-02T13:37:09Z jackdaniel: that "variable must be initialized"
2019-11-02T13:37:26Z phoe: (defclass foo ...) (loop for i of-type foo in x ...)
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2019-11-02T13:37:29Z Shinmera: pfdietz: The void value strikes again
2019-11-02T13:37:32Z phoe: how does the compiler know how to instantiate a proper FOO
2019-11-02T13:37:49Z pfdietz: It cannot, in general.
2019-11-02T13:38:01Z jackdaniel: phoe: in case of standard class instances slot may not be bound
2019-11-02T13:38:09Z pfdietz: (let ((x ⊥)) …)
2019-11-02T13:38:09Z jackdaniel: so there is no problem
2019-11-02T13:38:17Z Shinmera: yeah, standard-classes are no problem.
2019-11-02T13:38:19Z jackdaniel: this question becomes more relevant when you take structure class instances
2019-11-02T13:38:19Z pfdietz: Finally a use for Unicode in symbols.
2019-11-02T13:38:41Z phoe: jackdaniel: let FOO be a protocol class that signals an error on being instantiated
2019-11-02T13:38:42Z Shinmera: of-type bt:thread :)
2019-11-02T13:38:51Z Shinmera: phoe: class prototype.
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2019-11-02T13:38:56Z phoe: bt:*current-thread*
2019-11-02T13:39:00Z phoe: Shinmera: oh, that works
2019-11-02T13:39:16Z phoe: but right, structs don't have prototypes though
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2019-11-02T13:41:38Z pfdietz: The practical solution would be to have the OF-TYPE be done with a (LOCALLY …) around the loop body, and another LOCALLY with a declaration of type (OR NULL …) around the epilogue.
2019-11-02T13:42:28Z phoe: why do we want OR NULL there though
2019-11-02T13:42:44Z phoe: the standard doesn't say anything about setting variables to NIL once the epilogue is reached
2019-11-02T13:42:49Z jackdaniel: (loop for i of-type arbitrary-type in () …)
2019-11-02T13:43:01Z phoe: no no, I understand this part
2019-11-02T13:43:13Z phoe: ooooh, you mean an initial NIL
2019-11-02T13:43:17Z phoe: I see
2019-11-02T13:46:05Z phoe: OK - please review this, https://gist.github.com/phoe/335fecfdc195bddd47ab0928b0e62e52
2019-11-02T13:46:12Z pfdietz: To handle the case of zero loop iterations.
2019-11-02T13:46:24Z phoe: I wrote this up like several minutes ago and hope that it is consistent enough
2019-11-02T13:47:09Z jackdaniel: I'm inclined to dub it as undefined behavior and carry along ;_)
2019-11-02T13:47:23Z pfdietz: Looks good to me.
2019-11-02T13:47:36Z pfdietz: There should be a discussion of the issues with the zero iterations case.
2019-11-02T13:48:11Z phoe: jackdaniel: and I am not, since I've found a way to invalidate the option where 6 is returned
2019-11-02T13:48:21Z phoe: pfdietz: this is a separate bug though
2019-11-02T13:48:34Z phoe: maybe you could throw some ansi-tests for that one too
2019-11-02T13:50:24Z pfdietz: I keep throwing stuff into my copy of ansi-tests that isn't for public inclusion.  I need to refactor.
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2019-11-02T13:51:37Z phoe: pfdietz: yes please.
2019-11-02T13:52:15Z pfdietz: Pull the random stuff off into one or more separate repos.
2019-11-02T13:52:39Z phoe: I mean - is the random tester portable CL?
2019-11-02T13:53:06Z phoe: If yes, then you could add it to ansi-test but perhaps export it as a separate function or set of functions, and describe those in the README.
2019-11-02T13:53:32Z pfdietz: It should be, yes, and I've applied it to many implementations.   But I feel it's a separate thing.
2019-11-02T13:54:17Z phoe: OK - I understand. Sounds good.
2019-11-02T13:54:29Z phoe: Anyway - please review the gist I have posted above.
2019-11-02T13:54:37Z pfdietz: One new tweak to it, the mutational generator, is pretty sbcl specific.  It assumes that if the compiler throws an error, that's a bug.  But that's only an sbcl design principle, not something required by the standard.
2019-11-02T13:55:46Z phoe: I see, yes.
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2019-11-02T13:58:15Z phoe: pfdietz: thanks for the comment. Anyone else before I throw it at implementors?
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2019-11-02T14:02:01Z pfdietz: I am working on a testing thing that will be very sbcl-specific.   But it's intended to test test suites, not implementations, so that's ok.
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2019-11-02T14:10:31Z Shinmera: pfdietz: A coverage system?
2019-11-02T14:11:34Z pfdietz: A generalization of that: mutation testing.  That is, a way to mutate the source code of some software under test, to confirm that every mutant (that doesn't leave behavior unchanged) is detected by the test suite.
2019-11-02T14:11:54Z Shinmera: oh, nice
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2019-11-02T14:12:10Z pfdietz: Figuring out if mutants are sterile (do not change behavior) is the central problem, but there are interesting tricks for that.
2019-11-02T14:13:07Z pfdietz: I was applying a prototype to some of the internal code from SBCL (like, the implementation of APPEND and such) to see if ansi-tests killed all the mutants.
2019-11-02T14:19:31Z phoe: OK, SBCL/CCL/ECL tickets created. I can't log into the tracker for ABCL just yet and I don't know where to create CLISP bugs.
2019-11-02T14:20:16Z Shinmera: phoe: ABCL is on github
2019-11-02T14:20:25Z Shinmera: CLISP bugs are on sourceforge
2019-11-02T14:20:46Z phoe: Shinmera: oh! the official page links a trac instance though.
2019-11-02T14:21:11Z Shinmera: the page is outdated, then :)
2019-11-02T14:22:46Z phoe: Shinmera: OK, made an ABCL ticket.
2019-11-02T14:24:59Z Shinmera: phoe: Don't forget Clasp
2019-11-02T14:26:54Z Bike: this still the loop thing?
2019-11-02T14:27:09Z phoe: Bike: take a guess
2019-11-02T14:27:09Z Shinmera: Yes
2019-11-02T14:27:22Z phoe: except I've got kind-of-a-proof that 5 is The Way™
2019-11-02T14:27:31Z phoe: https://gist.github.com/phoe/335fecfdc195bddd47ab0928b0e62e52
2019-11-02T14:27:33Z beach: Oh, I missed that.
2019-11-02T14:28:59Z Bike: when it says "rpologue" do you mean "epilogue"
2019-11-02T14:29:00Z phoe: Shinmera: do you have a working clasp installation? Does it fail LOOP.1.{39,40}?
2019-11-02T14:29:16Z beach: phoe: So then SICL LOOP is the only correct implementation. :)
2019-11-02T14:29:20Z Bike: er, prologue
2019-11-02T14:29:35Z phoe: Bike: yes, thank you
2019-11-02T14:29:36Z Shinmera: phoe: It copies ECL so
2019-11-02T14:29:44Z phoe: Shinmera: ok, guess so
2019-11-02T14:29:56Z Bike: clasp copies ecl and none of the few changes i've made to the loop implementation would involve this
2019-11-02T14:29:59Z Bike: so go ahead and file it
2019-11-02T14:30:15Z jackdaniel: Bike: if you fix it first, please let me know ,)
2019-11-02T14:30:36Z Bike: "triaged: hard to care"
2019-11-02T14:30:40Z Bike: maybe it's easy to fix though
2019-11-02T14:35:19Z phoe: OK. Six bugtickets created in total. Linked in the gist comments.
2019-11-02T14:35:29Z jackdaniel: "code is conforming (...) since the user wants to perform an iteration for every fixnum" is hardly a argument for what is conformant (it may be argument for adopting one behavior), I'm sure that there are some mechanisms with undefined consequences with overlap with user "wanting"
2019-11-02T14:35:52Z jackdaniel: s/with overlap/which overlap/
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2019-11-02T14:36:33Z phoe: jackdaniel: that's the weakest point of my argument since it literally is up for human interpretation
2019-11-02T14:36:46Z jackdaniel: my point is that "user intention" is not a universal guide of what is a valid common lisp
2019-11-02T14:36:54Z phoe: but my question is, if this is not true, then what does (loop from m-n-f to m-p-f ...) mean
2019-11-02T14:36:59Z phoe: yes yes, you are correct
2019-11-02T14:37:07Z phoe: it isn't universal
2019-11-02T14:37:19Z phoe: I just thought (and hope!) that it is good enough for this case
2019-11-02T14:37:29Z jackdaniel: well, from/to is OK, but of-type declaration is not
2019-11-02T14:38:35Z jackdaniel: I don't care much of what is returned from the finally clause; I'm just afraid that if CL is implemented from the standard in 20000 years from now by alien archeologiests code depending on this interpretation may not run :)
2019-11-02T14:38:56Z jackdaniel: or, to be precise, may nto run  correctly
2019-11-02T14:39:46Z jackdaniel: and as we all know alien archeologists are a group which we care about ,p
2019-11-02T14:40:18Z phoe: jackdaniel: if OF-TYPE declaration is not good enough in that case then why is it allowed there
2019-11-02T14:40:26Z pjb: Imagine we try to remake dynosaures from DNA, and instead of getting dynosaures, we get toads!  Oops, the specifications was buggy, the actual implementation was dynosaures, but the DNA was wrong!…
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2019-11-02T14:40:35Z phoe: we only want the variable I to go between m-n-f and m-p-f since this is exactly what we specify
2019-11-02T14:40:53Z phoe: and if that is true, then it is obvious that the variable I is of type fixnum, since we do not intend it to be anything else
2019-11-02T14:40:56Z pjb: At least, we've got the fossils…
2019-11-02T14:41:09Z phoe: if the implementation assigns something out of the permitted type then it is the problem of the implementation
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2019-11-02T14:41:16Z phoe: our intent was clear in that case
2019-11-02T14:41:41Z phoe: `i` is meant to be assigned fixnums only and therefore OF-TYPE makes sense
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2019-11-02T14:43:08Z phoe: "hey Lisp, I want the variable I to be of type (integer 1 5)"
2019-11-02T14:43:13Z phoe: "okay, here is I with value 6"
2019-11-02T14:43:15Z jackdaniel: "kinda makes sense" and "is the least surprising behavior" - again - is a good argument for unifying behavior, but not for declaring code conforming
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2019-11-02T14:43:17Z phoe: "what"
2019-11-02T14:43:27Z phoe: jackdaniel: you are correct
2019-11-02T14:43:34Z jackdaniel: conflating these two things is wrong
2019-11-02T14:43:46Z phoe: if you find better wordings for these, please let me know - I'm more than happy to edit my writeup
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2019-11-02T14:44:04Z jackdaniel: I'd say: behavior is undefined, but the least surprising thing to do is
2019-11-02T14:44:07Z pjb: (loop for x in increasing (integer 1 5) collect x) -> (1 2 3 4 5)
2019-11-02T14:44:22Z pjb: (loop for x in increasing (single-float 1.0 5.0) collect x) -> …
2019-11-02T14:44:26Z jackdaniel: hence all implementations should adopt it for the abovementioned reasons
2019-11-02T14:45:33Z jackdaniel: then tests loop.1.39 and loop.1.40 would belong to ansi-beyond test suite ,)
2019-11-02T14:45:38Z phoe: xD
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2019-11-02T14:48:23Z phoe: jackdaniel: updated the gist, please let me know what you think.
2019-11-02T14:49:46Z jackdaniel: that quotation is incorrect, because it stipulates that I've expressed that opinion while I was answering the question "how this could be better phrased"
2019-11-02T14:49:59Z phoe: OK - let me edit it more
2019-11-02T14:50:08Z jackdaniel: I need to go now ,)
2019-11-02T14:50:10Z jackdaniel: see you
2019-11-02T14:50:14Z phoe: see youu
2019-11-02T14:50:43Z phoe: shit, I am too brain-dead for writing this correctly now
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2019-11-02T14:51:49Z phoe: nope, I need external support - someone who would like to proofread this once more, please do
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2019-11-02T14:56:25Z phoe: jackdaniel is correct but I'm too braindead at the moment to integrate his comment into the text.
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2019-11-02T15:07:27Z phoe: OK - I've edited the last three paragraphs.
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2019-11-02T15:29:23Z phoe: pfdietz: oh wow
2019-11-02T15:29:39Z phoe: I never even imagined that (make-condition '(or foo bar) ...) would be permitted by the spec
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2019-11-02T15:30:03Z pfdietz: Corner cases!
2019-11-02T15:30:11Z phoe: even (deftype foo () 'program-error) (make-condition 'foo)
2019-11-02T15:30:13Z phoe: gah
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2019-11-02T15:30:58Z phoe: beach: does WSCL take care of cases such as https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/blob/master/conditions/make-condition.lsp ?
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2019-11-02T15:32:53Z Bike: the interpretation that make-condition should allow arbitrary types is just bleh
2019-11-02T15:36:30Z Kabriel: phoe: jackdaniel: remember, only you can tell what your program's intent is, not your compiler!
2019-11-02T15:37:30Z phoe: Bike: I agree
2019-11-02T15:37:49Z phoe: pfdietz: is there a way to run the tests without the ones noted with these ansi-cl problems?
2019-11-02T15:37:55Z phoe: this is too much of a corner case for me
2019-11-02T15:38:13Z phoe: especially since the ambiguity in allowing such a case is absurdly huge
2019-11-02T15:38:47Z pfdietz: (rt:disable-note <note-name>), then (rt:do-tests)
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2019-11-02T15:41:37Z phoe: I assume that I do something else than loading doit.lisp then, one second
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2019-11-02T15:50:32Z phoe: huh, if inside CCL I do (load "/tmp/ansi-test/gclload1.lsp") then it tells me that File "compile-and-load.lsp" does not exist.
2019-11-02T15:50:41Z phoe: are pathnames broken or something?
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2019-11-02T15:59:24Z phoe: It seems they are, I've reproduced that on SBCL and ECL. Ticket time~
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2019-11-02T16:15:20Z pfdietz: My original version of this assumed running the tests from the ansi-test directory.    There was some churn on the loading code later (LPNs and such).
2019-11-02T16:15:43Z pfdietz: I did not want to use defsystem (later asdf) because those may not have been available on the lisp under test.
2019-11-02T16:21:06Z pjb: phoe: as long as (subtypep '(or foo bar) 'condition)
2019-11-02T16:22:17Z phoe: pfdietz: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1539#1539
2019-11-02T16:22:36Z phoe: pjb: that would imply that (deftype foo () 'condition) (make-condition 'foo) should work
2019-11-02T16:22:51Z pjb: it should, yes.
2019-11-02T16:23:05Z phoe: pjb: also if foo and bar have different slots, then what is the type of the thing that you get from the '(or foo bar) thing
2019-11-02T16:23:09Z pfdietz: What is *default-pathname-defaults* there?
2019-11-02T16:23:10Z phoe: and how should you treat it
2019-11-02T16:23:25Z phoe: pfdietz: #P"/home/phoe/"
2019-11-02T16:23:30Z pfdietz: There you go.
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2019-11-02T16:23:36Z pfdietz: chdir is not enough
2019-11-02T16:24:08Z pjb: it works in clisp and ecl; it fails on abcl, ccl, and sbcl who are not conforming.
2019-11-02T16:25:01Z pjb: phoe: indeed.
2019-11-02T16:25:34Z phoe: pfdietz: okay, it works - thanks
2019-11-02T16:26:01Z pfdietz: I've encountered that issue before :)
2019-11-02T16:26:18Z pfdietz: And yw
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2019-11-02T16:37:04Z phoe: (let ((*read-suppress* t)) (read-from-string "#\GARBAGE"))
2019-11-02T16:37:32Z phoe: how can the reader know that the reader macro has terminated its reading?
2019-11-02T16:37:55Z jackdaniel: pfdietz: I want to replace makefile-based "start" with another lisp which runs tests against some other implementation(s)
2019-11-02T16:38:17Z jackdaniel: that would also enable nice result intercepting and reporting even on implementations which do not fully implement cl
2019-11-02T16:38:20Z phoe: if it encounters "#\G))))" it cannot infer that it should stop reading when it encounters parens; maybe the reader macro just gobbles up five characters whatever they are
2019-11-02T16:38:29Z jackdaniel: s/start/doit/
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2019-11-02T16:42:08Z phoe: what should we assume in that case? since it seems unwinnable
2019-11-02T16:43:01Z phoe: an unknown reader macro can consume an arbitrary number of characters from the reader string before returning, it can read a Malbolge program and execute it
2019-11-02T16:43:23Z phoe: so when read-suppress encounters an unknown sharpsign macro, I guess it loses in the general case
2019-11-02T16:43:37Z phoe: the best thing we can do is to assume that a standard Lisp object follows the sharpsign macro I guess
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2019-11-02T16:49:27Z phoe: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/blob/master/reader/read-suppress.lsp#L72 <- where does it say in the spec that ";; Undefined macro dispatch characters should not signal an error"?
2019-11-02T16:49:43Z phoe: can't find it at http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_rd_sup.htm just yet
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2019-11-02T16:57:44Z phoe: and it is impossible to win in this case since https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1540#1540
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2019-11-02T17:01:27Z phoe: therefore I'd argue that it is impossible to win with an unknown sharpsign macro and the only sensible option is to signal an error
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2019-11-02T17:25:53Z phoe: this constraint is impossible to satisfy - it is easy to confuse the SBCL reader as well even though it tries to work around this
2019-11-02T17:25:56Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1541#1541
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2019-11-02T17:31:03Z Bike: i think signaling an error with an unknown compiler macro with read suppress would break real code.
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2019-11-02T17:33:01Z jackdaniel: you can't declare non-conformance based on undefined behavior for an edge case
2019-11-02T17:34:59Z jackdaniel: because someone may depend on the specified behavior for a trivial case and he will point at the spec: there, why you don't support this?
2019-11-02T17:35:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Bike: I've come across at least one implementation that does signal an error in that situation
2019-11-02T17:36:39Z phoe: Bike: jackdaniel: what is a sensible default in that case? When one has an unknown reader macro, then literally anything can follow.
2019-11-02T17:37:12Z Bike: yeah, but usually it's something readable
2019-11-02T17:37:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Lispworks, at least, signals an error on this: #+(or)(a #[ 1 2 3 ])
2019-11-02T17:37:29Z Bike: fiddlerwoaroof: i'm thinking of code that's like, conditionalized to use ccl macros or something
2019-11-02T17:37:38Z jackdaniel: phoe: if someone puts code for which behavior is not defined (like the case you mention), then it is their fault
2019-11-02T17:37:52Z jackdaniel: lisp implementation must support whatever is doable within the spec
2019-11-02T17:37:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Bike: I think that has to be in a separate file to work
2019-11-02T17:38:27Z phoe: jackdaniel: what exactly is doable in the spec in that case? One of my questions was, where in the spec it says that unknown sharpsign macro characters must be supported - and what does it mean to have them "supported"
2019-11-02T17:38:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: this throws on ccl: #+(or)(a #/aaa)
2019-11-02T17:39:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: for most characters, without a reader macro definition, they're just consituent characters
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2019-11-02T17:39:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, as long as the surrounding parens are balanced correctly #+/#- works ok
2019-11-02T17:39:27Z jackdaniel: phoe: a reasonable assumption is that they consume the next sexpression (either atom or a list). of course that will break for many edge cases
2019-11-02T17:39:53Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: jackdaniel: I understand that one. My question is what is defined, is it possible to satisfy it, and what is actually implemented
2019-11-02T17:40:18Z phoe: because if the spec requires unknown sharpsign characters to be supported, it requires us to solve the halting problem due to reader macros being Turing-complete.
2019-11-02T17:40:35Z phoe: and being capable of consuming an arbitrary number of chars from the stream.
2019-11-02T17:40:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: O, we're specifically talking about sharpsign macros, sorry
2019-11-02T17:40:52Z Bike: i think what is actually implemented in sbcl is that it just keeps READing stuff.
2019-11-02T17:40:55Z Bike: it's kind of twisty though.
2019-11-02T17:41:04Z jackdaniel: this is relevant: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/431
2019-11-02T17:41:14Z Bike: so (a #&(a b c) d) is fine, but (a #&) d) is an error.
2019-11-02T17:41:25Z jackdaniel: ^
2019-11-02T17:41:47Z Bike: ...uh, actually that's not an error. i thought it was
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2019-11-02T17:42:23Z phoe: My actual question is - since the spec is either unclear or unsatisfiable, what is the behaviour that we actually want to settle on and "standardize" in ansi-tests or beyond-ansi
2019-11-02T17:42:25Z Bike: (a #&( d) signals EOF, but (a #&) d) reads up to the first closing paren.
2019-11-02T17:42:30Z phoe: and I understand that this is a tough question
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2019-11-02T17:42:54Z jackdaniel: phoe: we can't settle or standarize undefine behavior in ansi-tests because that is *not* standarizedx in ansi
2019-11-02T17:43:04Z jackdaniel: so it is by definition "beyond" ;-)
2019-11-02T17:43:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Initially, every character in the dispatch table associated with the char has an associated function that signals an error of type reader-error.
2019-11-02T17:43:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs make-dispatch-macro-character
2019-11-02T17:43:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_dis.htm
2019-11-02T17:43:31Z phoe: (list #\GARBAGE) is unsatisfiable in general either, even though it is in the (non-normative) characters
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2019-11-02T17:44:02Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: if that is the case, then reading an unknown dispatch macro character should signal an error
2019-11-02T17:44:09Z phoe: even despite *read-suppress*
2019-11-02T17:44:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, and it does on lw, at least
2019-11-02T17:44:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: CCL too
2019-11-02T17:44:26Z phoe: which means that test READ-SUPPRESS.17 is broken
2019-11-02T17:44:28Z Bike: i don't think it's necessary that read-suppress not suppress those errors.
2019-11-02T17:45:06Z Bike: read-suppress's page is kind of vague actually...
2019-11-02T17:45:07Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_rd_sup.htm
2019-11-02T17:45:09Z phoe: Dispatching macro characters continue to parse an infix numerical argument, and invoke the dispatch function.
2019-11-02T17:45:18Z Bike: that doesn't rule out a handler.
2019-11-02T17:45:22Z phoe: if the dispatch function signals an error, is that error handled or does it propagate
2019-11-02T17:45:29Z Bike: it says for example that invalid uses of the dot character are suppressed, but also that ') signals an error.
2019-11-02T17:45:36Z Bike: like, why
2019-11-02T17:45:56Z phoe: !
2019-11-02T17:45:59Z phoe: > No matter what the value of *read-suppress*, parentheses still continue to delimit and construct lists;
2019-11-02T17:46:10Z phoe: hm
2019-11-02T17:46:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: It says that dispatch characters continue to invoke their function
2019-11-02T17:46:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I guess the question is can the reader handle the resulting READER-ERROR
2019-11-02T17:46:36Z phoe: so basically #G1)))) is invalid under *read-suppress* anyway since it's ambiguous
2019-11-02T17:46:59Z phoe: but this still doesn't rule out e.g. having spaces in input that could be consumed by the reader macro
2019-11-02T17:47:12Z phoe: and would otherwise be interpreted as separate objects, or something
2019-11-02T17:47:35Z Bike: you could for example have a situation where cl-interpol may be used, so you have #?")" in read suppressed text
2019-11-02T17:48:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, that's probably implementation-dependent behavior
2019-11-02T17:48:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've had to fix code that does things like that inside read-suppressed code so I could load them
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2019-11-02T17:49:33Z Bike: yeah my basic thought is that ansi tests should probably not test read suppress with unknown reader macros.
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2019-11-02T17:52:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: From my tests, it looks like sbcl and abcl implement some sort of heuristic and ccl, ecl, lw and clisp all signal an error
2019-11-02T17:52:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: for #+(or) #?foobar 1
2019-11-02T17:53:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: sbcl and abcl return 1 from this
2019-11-02T17:53:24Z Bike: oh, sbcl actually mentions this in the s oruce
2019-11-02T17:53:28Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: as I've linked above, this has been changed recently
2019-11-02T17:53:35Z jackdaniel: and ecl returns 1 now
2019-11-02T17:53:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: :(
2019-11-02T17:53:46Z jackdaniel: well, "recently", one year ago
2019-11-02T17:54:04Z Bike: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/reader.lisp#L1798-L1810
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2019-11-02T17:55:19Z Bike: so the "heuristic" is, i think, just that #? or whatever is ignored, so it just reads foobar
2019-11-02T17:56:01Z Bike: which is why it has the behavior it does when parentheses are involved.
2019-11-02T17:57:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think this is technically non-conforming
2019-11-02T17:58:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think given the specification of make-dispatch-macro-character, this should print something: (handler-bind ((reader-error (lambda (c) (print c)))) (read-from-string "#+(or) #?foobar 1"))
2019-11-02T17:59:11Z Bike: well, make dispatch macro character isn't necessarily used for #, is it?
2019-11-02T17:59:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, since sbcl never signals the condition, it won't ever be handled
2019-11-02T18:00:14Z Bike: oh, but i think it works the same with a new dispatch macro character, so never mind
2019-11-02T18:00:48Z Bike: i don't think read suppress isn't allowed to put in a handler or do something equivalent, though
2019-11-02T18:04:10Z phoe: that is more or less what I am supposed to answer
2019-11-02T18:04:27Z phoe: does test READ-SUPPRESS.17 make sense in ANSI-TEST
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2019-11-02T18:05:05Z Bike: i don't think the behavior is well defined. so no.
2019-11-02T18:05:16Z Bike: fun fact: the person who added that test is the same person who patched ecl to not signal an error
2019-11-02T18:05:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Eventually there won't be any test cases in ANSI-TEST
2019-11-02T18:05:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2019-11-02T18:05:54Z Bike: they seem to have misread the example in the read-suppress page
2019-11-02T18:06:02Z Bike: it says #\GARBAGE, not #GARBAGE
2019-11-02T18:06:33Z phoe: these are the same though, aren't they
2019-11-02T18:06:46Z Bike: of course not. #\ is a defined reader macro, #g is not
2019-11-02T18:06:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: #\garbage is a character literal
2019-11-02T18:06:51Z phoe: ...wait a second
2019-11-02T18:07:00Z phoe: fuck
2019-11-02T18:07:03Z phoe: you are correct
2019-11-02T18:07:08Z phoe: this is an unknown character literal
2019-11-02T18:07:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: And the set of character names is undefined :)
2019-11-02T18:07:32Z phoe: okay then, that cleans up some things
2019-11-02T18:07:35Z phoe: but not the test
2019-11-02T18:07:40Z phoe: (def-read-suppress-test read-suppress.17 "#garbage")
2019-11-02T18:07:45Z Bike: also examples aren't normative anyway ha ha ha.
2019-11-02T18:07:48Z phoe: this invokes #\# #\G
2019-11-02T18:08:40Z pfdietz: read-suppress.17 wasn't mine, was it?  I think I stopped at read-suppress.16
2019-11-02T18:09:02Z Bike: it was added by Marius Gerbershagen
2019-11-02T18:09:05Z Bike: i don't know who that is.
2019-11-02T18:09:21Z pfdietz: Some young whippersnapper, no doubt.  Kids these days...
2019-11-02T18:09:32Z Bike: except that, like i mentioned, they also changed the relevant ecl behavior.
2019-11-02T18:09:58Z jackdaniel: Marius fixed issue which I have linked above, someone else reported it
2019-11-02T18:10:04Z Bike: yes.
2019-11-02T18:10:21Z jackdaniel: and after fixing it he added the test
2019-11-02T18:10:36Z phoe: did he test on other implementations
2019-11-02T18:10:54Z phoe: I kinda doubt
2019-11-02T18:11:36Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure how this is relevant (he might have misread the spec, but testing on other implementations may only tell you that implementation implements one or another strategy)
2019-11-02T18:11:52Z phoe: well, right
2019-11-02T18:11:59Z phoe: disregard that one
2019-11-02T18:12:13Z jackdaniel: also that remark was kinda condescending
2019-11-02T18:12:19Z jackdaniel: but whatever
2019-11-02T18:12:24Z Bike: mine? i didn't mean it that way
2019-11-02T18:12:28Z phoe: yes it was - sorry about that
2019-11-02T18:12:29Z jackdaniel: phoe's
2019-11-02T18:12:33Z Bike: o
2019-11-02T18:12:39Z phoe: I should watch my tongue
2019-11-02T18:13:22Z phoe: back to the topic - #\GARBAGE should be read correctly I think, but #GARBAGE needs not be
2019-11-02T18:13:52Z jackdaniel: examples are not normative of course, still it is worth something that in the example there is both #\garbage and #ralpha
2019-11-02T18:13:53Z phoe: read-suppress.sharp-slash.1 tests against "#\\boguscharname"
2019-11-02T18:14:19Z phoe: #R is defined though, it's the radix one
2019-11-02T18:14:48Z jackdaniel: right
2019-11-02T18:14:50Z phoe: it is supposed to behave well under read-suppress, even though no numeric argument is provided to it and ALPHA needs not be valid
2019-11-02T18:15:00Z pfdietz: Handling of bogus char names is relevant, since different implementations may have different char names.
2019-11-02T18:15:04Z phoe: s/valid/a valid number in the provided base/
2019-11-02T18:15:10Z phoe: pfdietz: yes, and that is tested
2019-11-02T18:15:22Z phoe: the issue is #GARBAGE which is undefined reader macro #G
2019-11-02T18:15:29Z phoe: s/reader/dispatch reader/
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2019-11-02T18:25:17Z jackdaniel: the spec talks about skipping a printed representation of an expression (even if syntax is slightly invalid), I think that it is a reasonable to asume that in case of dispatch characters expression has (informally) a recursive definition expression=#e expression, given that all defined dispatch characters work that way
2019-11-02T18:25:25Z jackdaniel: assume*
2019-11-02T18:25:43Z jackdaniel: in case of undefined dispatch characters*
2019-11-02T18:26:13Z Bike: well sometimes it's a token. like for #\ since I just looked that up, or #* since if it used READ it would drop initial zeroes.
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2019-11-02T18:28:42Z jackdaniel: well, there are also strings and other "objects"
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2019-11-02T18:31:32Z phoe: but this implies another constraint on dispatch reader macros - "whatever your reader macro is capable of consuming, it must also make sense if it was READ as a normal Lisp expression with *READ-SUPPRESS* true"
2019-11-02T18:32:15Z phoe: so it would be forbidden to write #G1(((( which, even though it would be technically correct under some implementation of #G, would also confuse READ with READ-SUPPRESS
2019-11-02T18:32:37Z phoe: or #G1"
2019-11-02T18:33:02Z Bike: or a user equivalent of #|.
2019-11-02T18:33:55Z phoe: yep
2019-11-02T18:34:58Z phoe: the spec doesn't say anything like that though, or at least anything I remember
2019-11-02T18:35:47Z jackdaniel: it says about skipping the next "expression" whatever it means, *even* if it is not valid common lisp. so for things which we can /guess/ that are the next expression we should not signal a condition
2019-11-02T18:36:34Z jackdaniel: #+(or)#g1((( would leave "(((" to be read in my understanding
2019-11-02T18:37:02Z phoe: hmmm
2019-11-02T18:37:08Z phoe: this does make sense
2019-11-02T18:38:01Z phoe: and this directly implies that the limitation I have written above is in effect
2019-11-02T18:38:13Z phoe: otherwise *READ-SUPPRESS* is broken for all reader macros that do not comply with it
2019-11-02T18:38:17Z phoe: such as #G1(((
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2019-11-02T18:39:55Z jackdaniel: ^ doesn't fall in this category, because we'd end suppressed reading after #G1, no?
2019-11-02T18:41:01Z jackdaniel: and the next read would start with a character "("
2019-11-02T18:41:43Z jackdaniel:  I need to go to the grocery, tomorrow shops are closed, cu o/
2019-11-02T18:42:31Z Bike: if we say that a suppressed read error returns no values, it might still have the ((( in a suppressed context
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2019-11-02T18:42:55Z Bike: like (list #+(or) #+(or) 1 2 3 4 5) => (3 4 5)
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2019-11-02T19:07:55Z phoe: Bike: I don't understand the example
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2019-11-02T19:08:16Z phoe: also in case of a mismatched open paren we end up with an end-of-file error since there is no matching right paren
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2019-11-02T19:08:52Z Bike: it hits #+(or), so the next thing is read with read suppress. it reads #+(or) 1, but there's no actual object, so it continues and reads 2 with suppression. then the suppression is over, so it reads 3 4 5
2019-11-02T19:09:26Z Bike: so if #g1 is read and that reading returns no values it could be understood to not yet undo the suppression, analogously.
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2019-11-02T19:11:30Z phoe: I see
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2019-11-02T19:14:02Z Bike: anyway i stil think the behavior is undefined and the test shouldn't go either way (i.e., shouldn't mandate an error, and shouldn't mandate no error, so overall shouldn't exist)
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2019-11-02T19:15:37Z phoe: at this moment I agree with this conclusion
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2019-11-02T19:23:53Z fiddlerwoaroof just discovered the magit forge package
2019-11-02T19:24:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's great not having to use the Github website for PRs and Issues
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2019-11-02T19:29:46Z luis: fiddlerwoaroof: I wish it supported Gerrit as well.
2019-11-02T19:32:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't really know why I keep pushing PRs, only about 80% of them get merged
2019-11-02T19:32:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I hope someone else running into the same issues finds them and can get the software to work
2019-11-02T19:34:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: luis: CFFI's static linking support is broken on macOS without this patch https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/135/commits/1e43f7b62556fc7059c69a9c6d04c25bc9c2061e
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2019-11-02T19:34:25Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: which macOS? all versions?
2019-11-02T19:34:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: The last I tried was high sierra
2019-11-02T19:34:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: The linked stackoverflow issue has the details
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2019-11-02T19:35:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically, for some reason, macOS ignores a .a file if it's produced with ar
2019-11-02T19:35:56Z semz: Say I have an array in a CLOS slot. It's possible to perform some actions (e.g. computing a checksum) after changes to the slot by defining (SETF SLOT) accordingly, but is there a straightforward way to do the same whenever we only replace some entries of the array rather than the entire thing?
2019-11-02T19:36:30Z phoe: some entries of the array?
2019-11-02T19:36:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: And so, when using static-image-op, the cc invocation to link the SBCL runtime with the FFI libs fails
2019-11-02T19:36:48Z phoe: at this point you no longer access the CLOS object but rather SETF AREF the array
2019-11-02T19:37:10Z phoe: you'll want to write custom method(s) for that I guess
2019-11-02T19:38:06Z semz: oh well, it was worth a shot
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2019-11-02T19:38:12Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: I see
2019-11-02T19:38:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use this here to deal with osicat-hell, https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/daydreamer/blob/master/build.lisp
2019-11-02T19:38:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: But I have to remember to use my version of CFFI
2019-11-02T19:39:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I should look into using nix hydra to build this, circle-ci charges for macOS
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2019-11-02T20:23:52Z phoe: so it seems that we have two options regarding the #GARBAGE syntax
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2019-11-02T20:24:17Z phoe: one of them is Bike's treating it as undefined, which implies removing the test from ansi-test
2019-11-02T20:25:15Z phoe: the other is jackdaniel's idea of requiring that stuff that is actually read by reader macros must be readable as Lisp data under *READ-SUPPRESS* which would then make it possible for the reader to omit them completely
2019-11-02T20:28:35Z phoe: the first one is very easy to implement, the second puts additional logical constraints on portable code that clarify the spec's intention on the matter
2019-11-02T20:29:15Z phoe: namely, the other assumes that the datum that optionally follows the macro is a readable (under *READ-SUPPRESS*) Lisp expression
2019-11-02T20:29:50Z phoe: and therefore portable code must only use such data, even though stuff like #G1((( is technically legal Lisp
2019-11-02T20:30:36Z phoe: or rather, it would mandate that code that uses such unusual reader macro data must NOT be read under *READ-SUPPRESS* which in turn means that reader conditionals cannot be combined with such reader macros
2019-11-02T20:31:21Z phoe: in other words, code that uses such unusual reader macros must be split into separate files that are loaded conditionally on implementations or in the presence of systems that support those reader macros.
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2019-11-02T20:31:48Z phoe: I think that would be enough to satisfy that constraint - isolate #G1((( into its own file and NEVER mix it with *READ-SUPPRESS*.
2019-11-02T20:33:41Z phoe: Does this sound somewhat sane?
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2019-11-02T20:46:03Z phoe: jackdaniel: is this what you intended?
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2019-11-02T21:09:44Z jackdaniel: I was saying that you can't require signalling error under such circumstances, then I've mentioned what sounds like the most reasonable implementation
2019-11-02T21:10:19Z jackdaniel: I tend to agree with what Bike said -- consequences are here undefined *especially* that the paragraph in the spec mentions that it should accept even "invalid syntax"
2019-11-02T21:10:38Z jackdaniel: (i.e with Lisp dialects which are not Common Lisp)
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2019-11-02T21:11:16Z jackdaniel: so I'm OK with commenting out the test with a brief comment why it is not part of the package (pull requests welcome :)
2019-11-02T21:12:05Z jackdaniel: phoe: ^
2019-11-02T21:13:07Z phoe: jackdaniel: thanks. I'll prepare the PR later today or tomorrow.
2019-11-02T21:13:33Z phoe: If anyone has any objections, please throw them at me or the issue at gitlab.clnet/ansi-test
2019-11-02T21:13:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Would it make sense to move this sort of test to a separate "interoperability" set of tests
2019-11-02T21:14:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: It'd be useful to tabulate these testcases and show how each implementation implements this feature
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2019-11-02T21:17:24Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: it would make sense to do that, yes
2019-11-02T21:17:40Z phoe: one such place is called beyond-ansi and is a folder in the ansi-test repository
2019-11-02T21:17:53Z phoe: actually
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2019-11-02T21:18:08Z phoe: jackdaniel: would it make sense to merge test suites for package-local nicknames into beyond-ansi?
2019-11-02T21:18:42Z phoe: s/suites/suite/
2019-11-02T21:21:02Z phoe: if yes, I will prepare a PR
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2019-11-02T21:47:23Z jackdaniel: please do
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2019-11-02T22:21:00Z phoe: OK - will do that tomorrow
2019-11-02T22:21:13Z phoe: one PR for #GARBAGE, the other for PLN tests
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2019-11-02T22:49:31Z luis: fiddlerwoaroof: merged, thanks.
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2019-11-03T02:33:33Z stylewarning: “They” should add :ALONG as a loop keyword for arbitrary sequences
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2019-11-03T03:08:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Iterate uses over for that
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2019-11-03T04:57:03Z tourjin: on windows10, windowsemacs with slime, if i run this it creates output file on c:\users\choij not on d:\home where can I check the settings for default file creation?
2019-11-03T04:57:04Z tourjin: https://bpaste.net/show/JJ72O
2019-11-03T04:58:32Z no-defun-allowed rubs her glasses with a cloth
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2019-11-03T04:58:40Z Josh_2: "her"
2019-11-03T04:59:22Z no-defun-allowed: Probably where you started your Lisp implementation. You may want merge-pathnames and user-homedir-pathname to ensure you are writing to your home directory.
2019-11-03T04:59:49Z no-defun-allowed: e.g (with-open-file (stream (merge-pathnames "testfile.txt" (user-homedir-pathname)) ...) ...)
2019-11-03T05:00:27Z tourjin: ok i'll try it. thanks.
2019-11-03T05:00:50Z no-defun-allowed: Josh_2: I don't wear glasses surprisingly, but if it ticks you off, I can polish them all day.
2019-11-03T05:01:47Z ck_: tourjin: try looking into *default-pathname-defaults*
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2019-11-03T05:08:15Z no-defun-allowed: ck_: Didn't know about that, thanks.
2019-11-03T05:09:06Z tourjin: no-defun-allowed , your tip worked fine . thanks. ck_ your tip shows #P"c:/Users/choij". is it determined by emacs? or by slime? how can I change it permanantly to d:/home?
2019-11-03T05:09:41Z no-defun-allowed: The CLHS page states "An implementation-dependent pathname, typically in the working directory that was current when Common Lisp was started up."
2019-11-03T05:09:46Z no-defun-allowed: clhs default-pathname-defaults
2019-11-03T05:09:46Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for default-pathname-defaults.
2019-11-03T05:09:57Z no-defun-allowed: clhs default-pathname-defaults
2019-11-03T05:09:57Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for default-pathname-defaults.
2019-11-03T05:10:20Z no-defun-allowed: clhs \*default-pathname-defaults\*
2019-11-03T05:10:20Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for \*default-pathname-defaults\*.
2019-11-03T05:10:25Z ck_: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_defaul.htm
2019-11-03T05:10:28Z no-defun-allowed: Piece of shit matrix client.
2019-11-03T05:11:10Z pjb: clhs *default-pathname-defaults*
2019-11-03T05:11:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_defaul.htm
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2019-11-03T05:36:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-11-03T05:38:09Z Josh_2: Morning beach :)
2019-11-03T05:41:16Z ArthurStrong: morning
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2019-11-03T06:47:53Z ck_: hello there. that's quite the power name
2019-11-03T06:48:28Z beach: ck_: What is?
2019-11-03T06:49:30Z ck_: "Strong". I admit I thought I was in a different channel; excuse the pun.
2019-11-03T06:52:19Z pjb: MaxPower is the power name.  ArthurStrong is the strong name.
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2019-11-03T06:53:57Z ck_: I stand corrected
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2019-11-03T07:09:44Z ArthurStrong: It's character name from the TV series. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Arthur_Strong_(TV_series)
2019-11-03T07:10:24Z pjb: Max Power is a character name from a movie series too.
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2019-11-03T10:41:31Z froggey: can (locally (declare (type fixnum *unbound-special-variable*)) nil) signal an unbound variable error?
2019-11-03T10:41:40Z froggey: from the TYPE declaration page: "The meaning of a type declaration is equivalent to [...] executing (the typespec var) at the moment the scope of the declaration is entered."
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2019-11-03T10:44:17Z froggey: I think it can, but I haven't found an implementation that does
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2019-11-03T10:58:42Z phoe: does the latter signal an error?
2019-11-03T11:00:41Z froggey: yes
2019-11-03T11:04:06Z froggey: (locally (the fixnum *unbound-special*) nil) does, which I'd expect to be equivalent
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2019-11-03T11:06:50Z phoe: froggey: in that case file a SBCL issue, since it's likely an issue with SBCL's approach "treat type declarations as assertions"
2019-11-03T11:07:01Z phoe: it can't assert if the variable is unbound
2019-11-03T11:07:22Z phoe: froggey: is it a compilation-time error?
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2019-11-03T11:11:54Z froggey: no, it's a runtime error. that's what I would expect
2019-11-03T11:14:15Z froggey: it's not just SBCL, this is how other implementation behave too. (the <type> *unbound*) signals an error, but (declare (type <type> *unbound*)) doesn't
2019-11-03T11:14:57Z froggey: I'm wondering if it is reasonable for an implementation to have the declare signal an unbound variable error too
2019-11-03T11:18:53Z phoe: not really
2019-11-03T11:19:13Z phoe: (defun foo () (declare (fixnum *foo*)) (if (frob) *foo* *bar*))
2019-11-03T11:19:21Z phoe: this declaration changes program semantics
2019-11-03T11:19:31Z phoe: *foo* might not even be reached inside #'FOO
2019-11-03T11:19:53Z phoe: only if the variable is tried to be accessed an unbound variable error is to be signaled
2019-11-03T11:20:11Z froggey: exactly, but the part of the spec I quoted seems to allow it
2019-11-03T11:20:15Z phoe: yes
2019-11-03T11:20:22Z phoe: and that might warrant a bugticket
2019-11-03T11:20:25Z phoe: since this is equivalent to
2019-11-03T11:20:37Z phoe: (defun foo () (if (frob) (the fixnum *foo*) *bar*))
2019-11-03T11:21:27Z froggey: it's equivalent to (defun foo () (the fixnum *foo*) (if (frob) (the fixnum *foo*) *bar*))
2019-11-03T11:22:03Z phoe: uhhh
2019-11-03T11:22:09Z froggey: on variable reads, writes, *and* on entry to the scope that the declaration applies to
2019-11-03T11:22:20Z phoe: wait why the first (the fixnum *foo*)
2019-11-03T11:22:37Z phoe: because if that is true then SBCL is doing the right thing
2019-11-03T11:22:59Z phoe: you declare *foo* to be a fixnum inside the function toplevel
2019-11-03T11:23:14Z phoe: so it is normal that at the entry to the function toplevel SBCL complains about unbound variable
2019-11-03T11:23:53Z phoe: you want (defun foo () (if (frob) (locally (declare (fixnum *foo*)) *foo* *bar)) instead
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2019-11-03T11:24:00Z phoe: and that would be scope-equivalent to
2019-11-03T11:24:03Z phoe: (defun foo () (if (frob) (the fixnum *foo*) *bar*))
2019-11-03T11:24:13Z phoe: uh I broke parens in there, one sec
2019-11-03T11:24:23Z phoe: (defun foo () (if (frob) (locally (declare (fixnum *foo*)) *foo*) *bar)) instead
2019-11-03T11:25:02Z phoe: and this will behave properly on SBCL I think
2019-11-03T11:25:30Z phoe: as in, semantically equivalent
2019-11-03T11:26:13Z froggey: SBCL *currently* does (defun foo () (if (frob) (the fixnum *foo*) *bar*)), not what I said
2019-11-03T11:26:42Z froggey: I'm wondering if my reading of the spec, which would allow an implementation to do (defun foo () (the fixnum *foo*) (if (frob) (the fixnum *foo*) *bar*)), is correct
2019-11-03T11:27:36Z froggey: and I'm not talking specifically about SBCL
2019-11-03T11:27:53Z phoe: oh, I see
2019-11-03T11:28:10Z phoe: I'm not able to pay too much energy towards checking this one - I'm fighting the spec on another field
2019-11-03T11:28:21Z phoe: namely, the loop finally debate
2019-11-03T11:28:27Z froggey: fair
2019-11-03T11:29:56Z froggey: I'll implement my aggressive interpretation and see what breaks
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2019-11-03T11:44:57Z jackdaniel: froggey: I think I've read somewhere that declarations are hints for the compiler and it doesn't have to take that into account (also, if the declarations is invalid then it is an undefined behavior)
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2019-11-03T11:46:04Z jackdaniel: i.e when type is declared, compiler is entitled to assume that declaration is correct and i.e inline accesses for the particular data type without checking for the type. that said sbcl i.e expands such declaration into check-type if it doesn't know for sure what the type is
2019-11-03T11:46:19Z jackdaniel: ecl otoh on low safety settings will take that at face value and segfault on invalid declaration
2019-11-03T11:56:36Z froggey: yep, "the consequences are undefined" when the type is wrong
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2019-11-03T11:59:05Z froggey: point 3 from the TYPE page: "At the moment the scope of the declaration is entered, the consequences are undefined if the value of the declared variable is not of the declared type."
2019-11-03T11:59:28Z froggey: does an unbound special variable meet the type requirement for this?
2019-11-03T11:59:33Z phoe: nope
2019-11-03T11:59:39Z phoe: it is not true that the value of *foo* is a fixnum
2019-11-03T11:59:50Z phoe: because there is no value
2019-11-03T11:59:53Z jackdaniel: (declare (fixnum *foo*)) is a type declaration
2019-11-03T12:00:06Z jackdaniel: and it is invalid because foo is not bound
2019-11-03T12:00:12Z jackdaniel: thus consequences are undefined
2019-11-03T12:01:07Z jackdaniel: compiler could expand this declaration to (the fixnum *foo*), if it is bound to fixnum then behavior is no different compared to a situation when such declaration does not exist
2019-11-03T12:01:20Z jackdaniel: (semantically speaking)
2019-11-03T12:02:02Z froggey: that's what I was thinking, but I can't find an implementation that does this, so I was a bit concerned
2019-11-03T12:02:43Z jackdaniel: you can but you don't have to. if you write a documentation for mezzano compiler I'd clarify how it handles this undefined behavior given it is clear
2019-11-03T12:05:58Z froggey: yep
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2019-11-03T12:10:14Z pfdietz: I don't think having a special variable be unbound would violate a type declaration.
2019-11-03T12:10:44Z jackdaniel: if it is unbound when you enter the body?
2019-11-03T12:10:53Z pfdietz: The value of an unbound variable isn't not of the declared type, since there is no such value.
2019-11-03T12:12:00Z pfdietz: "executing (the typespec var) at the moment the scope of the declaration is entered. "   Hmm
2019-11-03T12:12:38Z pfdietz: That just requires that the variable be bound to an appropriate value at that point.
2019-11-03T12:14:39Z pfdietz: It could be made unbound later.
2019-11-03T12:15:18Z jackdaniel: yes, it is a runtime thing, not a compilation time
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2019-11-03T12:15:36Z pjb: pfdietz: good question.  There's no type for unbound.  But if you declare a variable to be of type X, there's also no value of type X for unbound!  Therefore an implementation would be misdirected to use the unbound "value" of the variable as an X.  Or it could store a prototypal X, and add an unbound flag.  Which again shows that declaring types in CL only slows down the code, and makes it bigger…
2019-11-03T12:15:48Z pjb: or wrong.
2019-11-03T12:16:01Z pfdietz: So a global (declaim (type fixnum *foo*)) just means that at that particular point, when loading the file, *foo* must be bound.
2019-11-03T12:16:12Z pjb: Yes.
2019-11-03T12:16:17Z jackdaniel: I would interpret it that way, yes
2019-11-03T12:16:49Z jackdaniel: there is an 'always-bound' declaration in sbcl afaik
2019-11-03T12:17:27Z pfdietz: But see the example on the page for PROCLAIM
2019-11-03T12:17:35Z pfdietz: (examples are not normative, though)
2019-11-03T12:22:22Z jackdaniel: declaim and proclaim may do different things (especially in environments where we load already compiled files)
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2019-11-03T12:30:12Z blondieeeee: hey can u guys please fix this error :( https://bitlylink.com/wj3kY
2019-11-03T12:30:48Z Shinmera: that is not code.
2019-11-03T12:33:09Z blondieeeee: oh shit, wrong link
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2019-11-03T13:18:09Z ck_: o_O
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2019-11-03T13:36:38Z pfdietz: I expected something much sexier in that link.  I am disappointed.
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2019-11-03T13:38:46Z phoe: some rather nice typos though
2019-11-03T13:39:16Z phoe: centreal likely means real but only with 0.01 probability
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2019-11-03T13:42:49Z froggey: well, I found one mistake already. declared a variable that didn't exist
2019-11-03T13:42:59Z froggey: that should probably involve a compile-time warning too
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2019-11-03T16:42:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: {
2019-11-03T16:43:16Z ck_: very curly
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2019-11-03T16:44:47Z brettgilio: The curliest. Too curly for lisp. Try (
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2019-11-03T16:49:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: }
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2019-11-03T17:13:58Z pjb: ) Duff!
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2019-11-03T17:15:46Z phoe: ;; (
2019-11-03T17:15:56Z phoe: note that it doesn't apply, it's commented out
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2019-11-03T17:22:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: #| time for some off-topic conversatiosn
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2019-11-03T17:31:49Z aeth: I think the first line ever in this channel must have been a #| or there's some custom reader macro
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2019-11-03T17:41:27Z ck_: we're typing into the nth level of some debugger, that's my theory
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2019-11-03T17:42:48Z aeth: Will we stack overflow it one day?
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2019-11-03T17:54:16Z sjl: my brain isn't working today.  If I have a sequence S and I want to get a fresh vector containing its elements, is there a better way than (map 'vector 'identity s)?
2019-11-03T17:54:46Z sjl: (coerce (copy-seq s) 'vector) would work, but if s is a list it would needlessly cons an intermediate list
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2019-11-03T17:56:27Z phoe: MAP sounds good
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2019-11-03T18:01:34Z sjl: looks like it's noticably faster if I write out the boilerplate http://paste.stevelosh.com/ff7cc9569ee6490aff8e3861ae8bb99da49dc2db
2019-11-03T18:02:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Note that, on sbcl, sequences may be user-defined
2019-11-03T18:02:31Z Shinmera: And ABCL
2019-11-03T18:02:40Z Shinmera: And hopefully more implementations, soon
2019-11-03T18:02:50Z Shinmera: Either way, copy-seq will work on them.
2019-11-03T18:03:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: But won't make a vector
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2019-11-03T18:03:01Z sjl: True, I can add (sequence (map 'vector 'identity s)) to the typecase to make that work
2019-11-03T18:04:13Z sjl: Another way would be (replace (make-array (length seq)) seq) but that's not ideal if length is slow (e.g. for lists)
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2019-11-03T18:14:39Z phoe: coerce has to call LENGTH anyway
2019-11-03T18:14:48Z phoe: otherwise it has no idea how much of a vector to allocate
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2019-11-03T18:19:45Z Shinmera: it could resize the vector as it fills it.
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2019-11-03T19:04:54Z phoe: or that, but I am not convinced it is faster than a single LENGTH call
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2019-11-03T19:13:36Z Shinmera: it is not, but it could do it
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2019-11-03T19:14:50Z Shinmera: there's also (replace (make-array (length s)) s)
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2019-11-03T19:18:38Z sjl: ... isn't that exactly what I wrote?
2019-11-03T19:18:55Z Shinmera: oh, right, I missed that message, sorry.
2019-11-03T19:19:33Z Shinmera: but as phoe pointed out copying a list to an array will incur a length check anyway because resizing many times would be much more costly than counting precisely once.
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2019-11-03T20:33:01Z _death: there's also :initial-contents, but has the same issue with length
2019-11-03T20:34:01Z Shinmera: last I looked at it for whatever reason make-array/replace was faster than initial-contents
2019-11-03T20:34:19Z Shinmera: might have changed/be different on non-sbcl
2019-11-03T20:36:03Z _death: strange
2019-11-03T20:39:55Z _death: but confirmed here.. for a 1m elements simple-vector it takes about 3.802 ms for initial-contents vs. 3.236 ms for replace
2019-11-03T20:42:00Z Shinmera: my guess is that supplying initial-contents hits a slow path on transforms.
2019-11-03T20:43:23Z _death: takes around the same time with speed 3 though
2019-11-03T20:43:38Z pjb: Why not (defun make-array (…) … (when initial-contents (replace array initial-contents))) which should be as fast?  (modulo recursion into the dimensions).
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2019-11-03T20:53:58Z aeth: It depends on what the initial-contents are, of course. If they're a literal list, I think you hit the fast path, at least on SBCL
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2019-11-03T22:12:39Z kslt1: ,packages
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2019-11-03T23:27:52Z v0|d: is there a way to use an old version of nvidia driver?
2019-11-03T23:28:17Z v0|d: I've overriden nvidia_x11 package in an overlay, it didn't work.
2019-11-03T23:29:24Z LdBeth: v0|d: #gentoo is three blocks away
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2019-11-03T23:30:39Z v0|d: lol.
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2019-11-03T23:37:39Z LdBeth: v0|d: anyway. Try unmerge drive -> mask new version -> emerge again
2019-11-03T23:38:24Z v0|d: LdBeth: defintely I'm on the wrong channel :p
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2019-11-04T00:12:17Z blondiee354: hi
2019-11-04T00:12:46Z blondiee354: how to solve this error
2019-11-04T00:12:50Z blondiee354: here is the paste link
2019-11-04T00:12:50Z blondiee354: https://bitlylink.com/wj3kY
2019-11-04T00:13:34Z no-defun-allowed: blondiee354: This isn't a Lisp program.
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2019-11-04T00:14:00Z no-defun-allowed: But you did spell Central wrong.
2019-11-04T00:14:11Z blondiee354: oops sorry
2019-11-04T00:14:25Z blondiee354: wrong link
2019-11-04T00:21:59Z LdBeth: What happened today
2019-11-04T00:22:12Z Josh_2: Sun rose, sun set
2019-11-04T00:22:43Z LdBeth: Sun dies
2019-11-04T00:23:07Z LdBeth: *sundays
2019-11-04T00:24:34Z Josh_2: xD
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2019-11-04T05:00:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-11-04T05:02:24Z buffergn0me: Good morning
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2019-11-04T05:19:12Z ArthurStrong: (map good-morning everyone)
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2019-11-04T05:19:55Z no-defun-allowed: #scheme is that way →
2019-11-04T05:20:08Z no-defun-allowed: (map 'nil #'good-morning everyone)
2019-11-04T05:20:18Z ArthurStrong: oh
2019-11-04T05:21:41Z ArthurStrong schemer indeed
2019-11-04T05:26:23Z pjb: (map nil (function good-morning) everyone)
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2019-11-04T05:26:54Z pjb: or 'list if you expect a list of answers…
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2019-11-04T05:38:00Z Josh_2: Mornin beach
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2019-11-04T07:47:03Z jackdaniel: if you do not care about the result, it shall be (mapc #'good-morning everyone)
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2019-11-04T07:47:46Z no-defun-allowed: What if everyone isn't a list?
2019-11-04T07:48:27Z jackdaniel: What if everyone isn't a sequence?
2019-11-04T07:48:37Z jackdaniel: What if everyone isn't a bound symbol?
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2019-11-04T07:51:08Z ck_: I prefer to be neither symbol nor bound.
2019-11-04T07:51:24Z no-defun-allowed: (do-all-people (person) (good-morning person))
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2019-11-04T07:55:34Z beach: If people here are bored, and are looking for things to do, I think I can come up with some tasks for them. :)
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2019-11-04T07:57:21Z Duuqnd: Well, I'm trying to get text rendering to work in my game engine, so I've got plenty to do.
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2019-11-04T07:58:36Z ck_: idle chat is the well from which we refill our motivation, beach. Don't take it away please
2019-11-04T07:58:39Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not bored, just taking a break from deciding how to hide disk serialisation stuff with macros.
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2019-11-04T08:00:14Z jackdaniel: Duuqnd: take a look at cl-vectors for ttf font handling
2019-11-04T08:00:32Z Duuqnd: Thanks, I'll take a look.
2019-11-04T08:00:57Z Duuqnd: I've been using cl-sdl2-ttf so far, but it's not being cooperative at the moment.
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2019-11-04T08:02:31Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Have you come up with any new projects?
2019-11-04T08:07:20Z ArthurStrong: Has anyone seen good examples of MuD written in lisp or interactive fiction (like adventure)?
2019-11-04T08:07:25Z ArthurStrong: I'm sure someone did it
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2019-11-04T08:07:42Z jackdaniel: ArthurStrong: I'd ask on #lispgame channel
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2019-11-04T08:08:02Z jackdaniel: they have regular game jams, I'm sure someone ended up with a mud
2019-11-04T08:08:03Z ArthurStrong: jackdaniel: if it would exist...
2019-11-04T08:08:18Z jackdaniel: #lispgames , sorry
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2019-11-04T08:08:33Z Duuqnd: Zork was written a Lisp dialect.
2019-11-04T08:08:37Z ArthurStrong: jackdaniel: OIC, thanks
2019-11-04T08:08:46Z jackdaniel: it is a vibrant community with their own wikis etc
2019-11-04T08:09:51Z aeth: #lispgame doesn't exist because there's more than one game!
2019-11-04T08:12:23Z beach: ck_: It was a joke.
2019-11-04T08:13:47Z ck_: beach: it sounded like a half joke (you do curate a list of sicl-related tasks), so I made one in return :)
2019-11-04T08:14:07Z beach: Sure.
2019-11-04T08:14:13Z beach: no-defun-allowed: You mean in addition to the ones on my list of suggested projects? metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html ?
2019-11-04T08:14:22Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Not really no.
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2019-11-04T08:23:54Z Duuqnd: beach: That list has some interesting stuff on it. I might try doing one of those projects some day.
2019-11-04T08:24:34Z beach: Great!  When you do, please don't hesitate to ask me about them.
2019-11-04T08:24:40Z phoe: good morning
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2019-11-04T08:25:00Z beach: Hello phoe.
2019-11-04T08:25:05Z phoe: hey hi beach
2019-11-04T08:25:15Z phoe: I got some rather good (and old) criticism on my LOOP FINALLY stuff, time to read it all now that I have the time
2019-11-04T08:26:07Z beach: Are things slow at work?
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2019-11-04T08:27:59Z Duuqnd: beach: Btw, I read that Swedish spelling reformation page, and I can't decide whether I love it or hate it.
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2019-11-04T08:28:15Z beach: Heh!
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2019-11-04T08:29:10Z phoe: beach: yes. Slow enough for me to indulge in debates over ANSI CL.
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2019-11-04T08:29:35Z Duuqnd: beach: I mean, it makes sense, it would probably be a good idea, but I wonder if it'd be possible to convince enough people to use it.
2019-11-04T08:30:36Z beach: Duuqnd: No it won't, but minor issues like that won't stop me from making suggestions that I think are right.
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2019-11-04T08:34:33Z Duuqnd: I do think that it'd be a good idea to try though, since spelling is probably the most confusing part of Swedish.
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2019-11-04T08:35:12Z Duuqnd: Swedish is my native language, yet I still have problems with it rather frequently.
2019-11-04T08:35:42Z beach: Yes, and the reasons that people have against such reforms don't hold water.
2019-11-04T08:36:30Z Duuqnd: The only problem is getting people to accept it.
2019-11-04T08:36:43Z Cymew: The spelling of French is way more confusing than the spelling of Swedish.
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2019-11-04T08:36:56Z beach: French (the official language of my current home) is pretty bad too.
2019-11-04T08:37:20Z beach: Cymew: Indeed.
2019-11-04T08:37:30Z Duuqnd: I don't know any French, but it does seem quite strange from what I've seen.
2019-11-04T08:37:46Z beach: Almost as bad as English.
2019-11-04T08:38:00Z beach: But it's off topic.
2019-11-04T08:38:11Z Cymew: Indeed.
2019-11-04T08:38:21Z Duuqnd: Woops. I kind of forgot this was #lisp.
2019-11-04T08:38:42Z Cymew: Interesting list of suggested projects. I had not seen that before.
2019-11-04T08:39:11Z Duuqnd: That "Lisp Operating System" article is really interesting too.
2019-11-04T08:39:30Z beach: Cymew: That's part of the reason I showed it again. :)
2019-11-04T08:39:31Z Cymew: I would have thought there was a pdf library already written by someone.
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2019-11-04T08:40:28Z beach: Cymew: Marc Battyani did some work, but not the kind I am looking for.
2019-11-04T08:40:36Z beach: And I think his stuff bitrotted.
2019-11-04T08:40:44Z Duuqnd: PDFs can get quite complicated sometimes.
2019-11-04T08:41:13Z Duuqnd: I find it kind of shocking how few PDF readers there are that can properly fill out forms.
2019-11-04T08:41:33Z jackdaniel quietly hints, that if you don't want to work alone on this or that project, McCLIM is looking for contributors
2019-11-04T08:41:36Z Cymew: Interestingly enough "Editor for Common Lisp code" sounds so obvious, and still it shows up often in wishlists and suchlike.
2019-11-04T08:42:09Z beach: Cymew: "obvious"?
2019-11-04T08:42:36Z Cymew: Yeah, I mean you need an editor to write code, so it should be the first thing to do, right?
2019-11-04T08:42:46Z Cymew: So... it should already be done...
2019-11-04T08:42:53Z Cymew: But it isn't-
2019-11-04T08:42:56Z Shinmera: you need an os to run your program, therefore you should write an os?
2019-11-04T08:42:58Z Cymew: That I find interesting.
2019-11-04T08:43:00Z Shinmera: what kinda logic is that
2019-11-04T08:43:06Z Duuqnd: Speaking of editors, I feel like "Climacs" isn't exactly a good name for a serious project.
2019-11-04T08:43:11Z aeth: Cymew: The problem is that GNU Emacs is good enough... I mean, it's awful, but it's good enough.
2019-11-04T08:43:24Z Cymew: Shinmera: Yeah, kind of the same thing.
2019-11-04T08:43:39Z Shinmera: Cymew: I'm saying it's absurd.
2019-11-04T08:43:39Z Cymew: People do talk about a lisp OS often, but it never seem to happen.
2019-11-04T08:44:14Z beach: Cymew: It is easy to do something simple and not very useful, but difficult to do something truly great.
2019-11-04T08:44:25Z Duuqnd: Cymew: I saw a Lisp OS recently. I don't remember what it was called though.
2019-11-04T08:44:31Z Cymew: beach: Might be that.
2019-11-04T08:44:36Z Duuqnd: I wasn't very useful though.
2019-11-04T08:44:40Z Cymew: Duuqnd: Mezzano?
2019-11-04T08:44:40Z aeth: Duuqnd: probably mezzano
2019-11-04T08:44:48Z Duuqnd: Yeah, that's the one.
2019-11-04T08:45:13Z Cymew: aeth: That probably tells us something. Not sure what. ;)
2019-11-04T08:46:33Z beach: Cymew: The plan for Second Climacs is to do syntactic and semantic analysis at typing speed.
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2019-11-04T08:46:43Z beach: I think I know how to do it.
2019-11-04T08:46:54Z Cymew: Sounds ambitious.
2019-11-04T08:47:09Z Cymew: Hmm? Was that the correct spelling?
2019-11-04T08:47:21Z beach: That's the idea, yes.
2019-11-04T08:47:43Z Duuqnd: beach: I think "Climacs" might not be the best name... I mean, the name isn't bad, but it'll be hard to get people to take it seriously.
2019-11-04T08:48:01Z Cymew: It will get noted.
2019-11-04T08:48:13Z Cymew: ..or "noticed".
2019-11-04T08:48:23Z beach: Duuqnd: This has been discussed.  I have made up my mind.
2019-11-04T08:48:44Z mfiano2: I agree. For something so innovative, I wouldn't piggy-back off of another editor's name.
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2019-11-04T08:49:14Z Duuqnd: mfiano2: I mean, that's not exactly what I was thinking, but that too.
2019-11-04T08:49:38Z Cymew: I am reminded of the conversations in the dlang community. So many people seem to crave so odd things in an editor. I have been using emacs for so long I can't see why it is not enough. I realize I am blind, but am in something of a different paradigm.
2019-11-04T08:50:16Z Cymew remebers a RPG paper about incommensurability
2019-11-04T08:50:20Z beach: Cymew: For editing Common Lisp code, Emacs is OK, but not great.
2019-11-04T08:50:45Z Duuqnd: beach: It's great compared to most alternatives.
2019-11-04T08:51:17Z Duuqnd: Kind of like GNU/Linux. "It's not good, it's just the best."
2019-11-04T08:51:27Z Cymew: Maybe that's it.
2019-11-04T08:51:34Z beach: Duuqnd: Right, we don't really have a good editor for Common Lisp code.  Nor a debugger, nor ...
2019-11-04T08:51:45Z mfiano2: There are plugins to do syntactic and semantic analysis server-side with deep learning in real time, but this is something different and exciting. Been keeping an eye on it for years.
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2019-11-04T08:52:20Z no-defun-allowed: Sadly "good enough is the enemy of what is actually needed" is not as frequently uttered as "perfect is the enemy of good".
2019-11-04T08:52:27Z Cymew: I think my usage is so unsofisticated I would not know how to use a good CL editor!
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2019-11-04T08:52:42Z no-defun-allowed: Deep learning? Is that how C people think interactive development works?
2019-11-04T08:52:50Z beach: Cymew: Oh, yes you would. :)
2019-11-04T08:53:14Z Cymew: I would love to try a fully operational battlestation like Climacs!
2019-11-04T08:53:52Z Cymew: BTW, I like the name.
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2019-11-04T08:54:01Z Duuqnd: no-defun-allowed: Deep learning neural network AI block-chain static analysis
2019-11-04T08:54:05Z beach: Cymew: Think syntax highlighting based on semantics rather than regular-expression parsing.
2019-11-04T08:54:40Z Cymew: Well, I will try it when it's available.:)
2019-11-04T08:54:49Z beach: Great.
2019-11-04T08:54:59Z beach: The dynamic nature of Common Lisp makes the task much harder than for static languages.
2019-11-04T08:55:14Z Cymew: Yeah, that much is very clear.
2019-11-04T08:55:29Z beach: Because what has been learned over time can be altered with a custom reader macro.
2019-11-04T08:56:09Z beach: That is why we need READ and COMPILE-FILE to analyze the buffer at typing speed.
2019-11-04T08:59:21Z Cymew: Was there any functionality in the old editors like Zwei that would ne interesting to resurrect? I have only glanced at the code briefly?
2019-11-04T09:00:23Z beach: That sounds likely.  On the other hand, computers are way more powerful now than was the case of the Lisp machine.
2019-11-04T09:00:36Z beach: So we can be more ambitious no.w
2019-11-04T09:02:04Z Duuqnd: Sometimes I wonder how the tech industry would look if Lisp Machines became the norm.
2019-11-04T09:02:12Z shka__: Nowdays we can have some pretty SF stuff in the editor.
2019-11-04T09:02:55Z shka__: For instance, it would be possible to have structural search to find expressions in the code.
2019-11-04T09:03:08Z shka__: even fuzzy match
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2019-11-04T09:04:36Z beach: How would that work, and why wold it do a better job than READ?
2019-11-04T09:05:00Z scymtym: shka__: like this? https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/pattern-match-rewrite-3.png
2019-11-04T09:07:00Z beach: shka__: Oh, I think I misunderstood what you meant.  Sorry!
2019-11-04T09:10:22Z beach: scymtym: Very impressive looking.
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2019-11-04T09:12:27Z scymtym: beach: thanks. it was inspired by an emacs lisp rewriting system presented at a recent ELS
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2019-11-04T09:13:17Z beach: Ah, OK.
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2019-11-04T09:16:12Z shka__: scymtym: analyzing…
2019-11-04T09:16:59Z shka__: scymtym: this looks like a good example
2019-11-04T09:18:49Z shka__: for extra spicy example, one can imagine function that will return function bodies that are similar to other function using SVR metric
2019-11-04T09:19:00Z shka__: sorted with the distance
2019-11-04T09:19:29Z shka__: it would be a computationally intensive task, but with current hardware it is possible
2019-11-04T09:22:23Z lieven: Kent Pitman's "what was lost" post is 20 years old and these functionalities haven't been regained yet
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2019-11-04T09:24:01Z beach: But we are working on it.
2019-11-04T09:24:14Z beach: ... at least some of us.
2019-11-04T09:25:17Z lieven: it wasn't meant as a critique. I'm sorry if it came over as such.
2019-11-04T09:25:52Z lieven: I was merely reacting to the view that it is hardware performance that is/was keeping us
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2019-11-04T09:29:28Z beach: No, what is keeping us is just lack of manpower.
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2019-11-04T09:31:30Z beach: Part of the problem, of course, is that many people are convinced that our current tools are absolutely fantastic.
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2019-11-04T09:33:01Z Cymew: I might add my former comments are from the perspective of a grumpy old man, knowing his limitations. ;)
2019-11-04T09:33:11Z Cymew: ...i.e. about emacs.
2019-11-04T09:33:27Z jackdaniel: emacs is, well, pretty annoying
2019-11-04T09:34:06Z lieven: and part of the problem is that the goalposts are continuously shifting. Pike hit it with his also 20 year old remark that systems software is irrelevant. In order to have a functional desktop experience you need so many huge standards implemented that it's not feasible to do them from scratch and using existing implementations ties you to the current state of the art
2019-11-04T09:35:02Z beach: lieven: Yes, I read the slides of that talk.  Very pertinent.
2019-11-04T09:35:26Z lieven: for example the remark here earlier that so few pdf viewers do a good job with forms. to do forms properly you need to have a full ecmascript implementation in your viewer.
2019-11-04T09:36:48Z jackdaniel: I think that tells something about pdf specification
2019-11-04T09:36:56Z beach: Wow.
2019-11-04T09:37:20Z Duuqnd: Welcome to the future!
2019-11-04T09:37:56Z Duuqnd: Putting garbage languages into document formats! Truly, we live in the best timeline.
2019-11-04T09:38:03Z Cymew: I'm not that surprised. Explains a lot.
2019-11-04T09:38:44Z lieven: since acrobat stopped developing acroread for linux/unix, there is no pdf viewer that supports the 1.7 version of the PDF spec for these platforms
2019-11-04T09:40:55Z beach: One year, my (admittedly small) family actually had to go buy a Windows computer to do her US taxes because of that.  Now, they have a website for it.
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2019-11-04T09:41:49Z lieven: yeah a friend of mine had to go look for a windows computer to use for a visum application in a pdf+forms format
2019-11-04T09:41:57Z jackdaniel: "PDF 1.7 (...) ISO 32000-1, includes some proprietary technologies defined only by adobe"
2019-11-04T09:42:18Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure  how that counts as an open standard
2019-11-04T09:42:19Z beach: Very sad state of some things.
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2019-11-04T09:43:10Z lieven: jackdaniel: it may not count as an open standard but it is needed for a common desktop experience. likewise video codecs, drm incluced, etc
2019-11-04T09:43:15Z jackdaniel: "PDF 2.0 (newest standard) does not inlcude any proprietary technologies as normative references", so we have at least that
2019-11-04T09:44:23Z lieven: yeah and the bureaucracy that just send you one of those things will be hugely cooperative if you complain
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2019-11-04T09:45:10Z lieven: last year there was a big ruckus in my country because tax professionals had to have a microsoft account to get access to the new tax legislation on an official government site
2019-11-04T09:45:21Z Duuqnd: Another example of this sort of thing is governments providing land border maps in a proprietary AutoCAD format.
2019-11-04T09:45:29Z jackdaniel: I think we should move that to lispcafe
2019-11-04T09:45:43Z jackdaniel: it got offtopic with time (my fault admittedly)
2019-11-04T09:45:58Z aeth: we should specify the border between #lisp and #lispcafe in a proprietary AutoCAD format.
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2019-11-04T09:46:03Z lieven: lol
2019-11-04T09:46:09Z Cymew: :)
2019-11-04T09:46:39Z Cymew: Is that KMP post archived somewhere? I can't seem to access it from work.
2019-11-04T09:46:54Z Duuqnd: Cymew: KMP?
2019-11-04T09:47:26Z jackdaniel: Kent Pitman
2019-11-04T09:47:47Z Duuqnd: Ah, ok.
2019-11-04T09:47:53Z Duuqnd: Is this the one? https://pastebin.com/UD0pTcrZ
2019-11-04T09:49:09Z Cymew: That sure is KMP anyway. He keeps typing until he has exhaused a topic. ;)
2019-11-04T09:49:47Z Cymew: Duuqnd: Thanks.
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2019-11-04T09:52:28Z Cymew took a look at the AutoCAD map and went off to #lispcafe with KMP
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2019-11-04T11:16:40Z shka__: scymtym: this pattern matching thing
2019-11-04T11:16:52Z shka__: it is part of some application?
2019-11-04T11:21:29Z scymtym: shka__: no, i just wanted to try and make something like the emacs lisp thing using our libraries (eclector, mcclim, etc.)
2019-11-04T11:22:04Z shka__: well, this looks like it has a potential
2019-11-04T11:22:23Z shka__: and a lot of it in fact
2019-11-04T11:24:00Z shka__: do you intend to work on this? can I help? I would want to learn clim but it is much easier when you are working with someone that knows stuff
2019-11-04T11:28:18Z scymtym: shka__: i mainly work on the underlying libraries. in this case eclector, the pattern matcher and the s-expression syntax library. regarding clim, i enjoy using it and recommend it, but it is not at the core of the prototype in the screenshot
2019-11-04T11:28:43Z shka__: ok
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2019-11-04T14:52:56Z jackdaniel: a new name for a macro style often found in the wild: dimwit(?) -- do I mean what I tell(?)
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2019-11-04T14:56:51Z phoe: minion: memo for pfdietz: the comments at https://gist.github.com/phoe/335fecfdc195bddd47ab0928b0e62e52 are good and outline errors in my reasoning. We're back to the drawing board, except now I wonder if commenting out the ANSI-TESTs that test the LOOP FINALLY variable values wouldn't be the best option if their value is to be treated as undefined.
2019-11-04T14:56:52Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pfdietz when he/she/it next speaks.
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2019-11-04T17:17:51Z Bike: yesterday pfdietz and shinmera and some other people were talking about utf8 strings in lisp, so i tried implementing them https://github.com/Bike/utf8string
2019-11-04T17:18:13Z Bike: that is, they're lisp sequences stored as utf8 encoded strings, so they're more compact than the utf32 the implementation strings probably are
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2019-11-04T17:20:17Z Shinmera: Nice
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2019-11-04T17:21:17Z phoe: is this using the extensible sequences protocol?
2019-11-04T17:21:23Z Shinmera: There's https://github.com/shinmera/trivial-extensible-sequences
2019-11-04T17:21:35Z Shinmera: phoe: second sentence
2019-11-04T17:21:40Z phoe: well damn, now I have a good reason to implement those in ccl
2019-11-04T17:22:19Z Shinmera: Bike: t-e-s offers a fallback implementation of the protocol on implementations that do not natively support it, which may or may not be better depending on your POV.
2019-11-04T17:22:28Z Shinmera: Lacks a test suite right now, though.
2019-11-04T17:24:53Z Bike: fallb... ohhh i see what you mean
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2019-11-04T17:25:21Z Bike: but then the standard functions won't use it, right?
2019-11-04T17:25:33Z Shinmera: Yes, you have to use the sequence functions from there.
2019-11-04T17:25:41Z Bike: right, ok.
2019-11-04T17:25:46Z Bike: i only tested on sbcl
2019-11-04T17:26:13Z Shinmera: t-e-s hasn't been tested anywhere except SBCL either (both with and without fallback).
2019-11-04T17:26:18Z Bike: you also need code-char and char-code to work with codepoints, and for the implementation to have unicode characters to begin with
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2019-11-04T18:00:01Z mfiano: Bike: Nice, I checked out that project yesterday when it was pushed and it's very cool. I also think you trumped sjl with swearing in comments :)
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2019-11-04T21:12:26Z gendl: Hi, how would I make a regexp with cl-ppcre to match any number of "../"  ?
2019-11-04T21:12:59Z dlowe: I like how you snuck a regex question into the lisp channel
2019-11-04T21:13:35Z dlowe: The regex you want is probably (?:\.\./)+
2019-11-04T21:13:49Z dlowe: don't forget to escape the \ if you stuff it into a string
2019-11-04T21:14:03Z dlowe: or use cl-interpol which has nice regex strings
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2019-11-04T21:15:39Z aeth: dlowe: every regex is different so...
2019-11-04T21:15:40Z gendl: dlowe: thanks! That works, with extra "\" in front of each "\" as you say... What's the ?: at the beginning for?
2019-11-04T21:16:20Z dlowe: it groups without capturing
2019-11-04T21:17:13Z gendl:  dlowe:  ok - so it will also work with out the ?:,  but it's just doing more unneeded work.
2019-11-04T21:17:25Z gendl: sorry if the regex questions were off topic.
2019-11-04T21:17:37Z dlowe: and if you actually want to capture some of it, it will interfere
2019-11-04T21:18:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: gendl: cl-ppcre also supports a s-expression regex syntax that might be more intuitive
2019-11-04T21:18:35Z gendl: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks, I'll have to check that out.
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2019-11-04T21:26:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://edicl.github.io/cl-ppcre/#create-scanner2
2019-11-04T21:38:11Z phoe: just remember to escape the #\\ as well - with Lisp string syntax, that will be "(?:\\.\\./)+"
2019-11-04T21:38:18Z phoe: I say this because it bit me in the butt some time ago
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2019-11-04T22:06:02Z p_l: there's also the s-expression syntax for CL-PPCRE
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2019-11-04T22:06:05Z p_l: and a reader macro
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2019-11-05T01:58:33Z ebzzry: What is a good library for reading and writing JSON?
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2019-11-05T02:36:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: yason is what I use
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2019-11-05T03:04:10Z Josh_2: I use cl-json but apparently there are some issues with it
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2019-11-05T04:59:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-11-05T04:59:20Z Josh_2: Mornin
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2019-11-05T07:33:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: what's the write way to get all the systems an ASDF system depends on?
2019-11-05T07:33:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: ugh, *right way
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2019-11-05T07:34:44Z no-defun-allowed: (asdf:system-depends-on (asdf:find-system name)) ;; a list of the direct dependencies
2019-11-05T07:34:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: that isn't it :)
2019-11-05T07:35:13Z no-defun-allowed: Do you mean the dependencies of all those dependencies too?
2019-11-05T07:35:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: no, the issue with that is it returns dependency specifications and not necessarily the actual dependencies
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2019-11-05T07:35:55Z no-defun-allowed: Oh. Fair enough.
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2019-11-05T07:36:39Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Just resolve it yourself. Something like https://github.com/Shinmera/staple/blob/master/toolkit.lisp#L38
2019-11-05T07:37:19Z Shinmera: note that the resolve-dependency-spec thing needs the system you're resolving on
2019-11-05T07:37:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: thanks
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2019-11-05T07:38:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: my biggest gripe with ASDF is the lack of user-friendly introspection apis
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2019-11-05T07:38:25Z Shinmera: if you proceed on that path you'll have plenty more gripes before long.
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2019-11-05T07:41:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is ASDF basically unmaintained now?
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2019-11-05T07:42:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: (i.e. since Fare switched away from CL)
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2019-11-05T07:44:59Z phoe: https://github.com/fare/asdf/network
2019-11-05T07:45:21Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: certainly seems so, the last commit was in March and there are no visible GitHub forks with newer ones.
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2019-11-05T07:48:00Z PuercoPope: upstream is one gitlab, notrpg maintains ASDF afaik
2019-11-05T07:48:08Z PuercoPope: is the one on
2019-11-05T07:48:41Z PuercoPope: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf
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2019-11-05T08:22:42Z phoe: oooh
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2019-11-05T08:44:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: ugh, resolve-dependency-spec updates the hash-table asdf:map-systems iterates over
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2019-11-05T09:18:08Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: where is map-systems in your equation?
2019-11-05T09:21:35Z phoe: does resolve-dependency-spec call it itself?
2019-11-05T09:22:23Z pjb: (com.informatimago.tools.check-asdf:system-direct-dependencies :com.informatimago.tools.check-asdf)
2019-11-05T09:22:49Z pjb: (com.informatimago.tools.check-asdf:system-all-dependencies    :com.informatimago.tools.check-asdf)
2019-11-05T09:22:50Z pjb: etc.
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2019-11-05T09:39:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: asdf:map-systems maps over the hash-table asdf::*registered-systems*
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2019-11-05T09:40:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, if you call a function that modifies the hash-table, you can get surprising results
2019-11-05T09:40:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I figured out, though, that you can solve it by mapping over (asdf:registered-systems) instead, which returns a list of the registered system names
2019-11-05T09:41:53Z phoe: yes, I see
2019-11-05T09:42:08Z phoe: is this mentioned anywhere in the documentation?
2019-11-05T09:42:27Z phoe: if not, then maybe it could be worth a mention to avoid future bugs
2019-11-05T09:43:03Z phoe: the requirement that the function used in MAP-SYSTEMS must not mutate the state of the registered systems is a non-trivial one
2019-11-05T09:43:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: those functions will return things like (:feature :foo :alexandria)
2019-11-05T09:44:01Z pjb: They return list of system names (strings).
2019-11-05T09:44:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: not if this is how it's defined: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/tools/check-asdf.lisp#L254
2019-11-05T09:45:09Z pjb: (com.informatimago.tools.check-asdf:system-direct-dependencies :com.informatimago.tools.check-asdf) #| --> ("com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum" "com.informatimago.clext" "com.informatimago.tools.source" "com.informatimago.tools.script") |#
2019-11-05T09:46:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: (asdf:system-depends-on (asdf:find-system :fwoar-lisputils)) #| => ("anaphora" "alexandria" ... (:FEATURE (:NOT (:OR :ECL :ABCL)) ...) |#
2019-11-05T09:47:49Z pjb: Well, this might be the new feature :if-feature I'd guess.
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2019-11-05T09:48:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are also a couple other dependency specs like that for version-pinning, etc.
2019-11-05T09:49:11Z pjb: I'm only a single human programmer, I cannot track all the API changes of all the software frameworks of the world.  This is it is VERY BAD to use frameworks!  Just NIH develop and maintain your OWN code!
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2019-11-05T10:00:50Z _death: I remember using component-sideway-dependencies (+ topological sort)
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2019-11-05T10:04:15Z LdBeth: Does anyone know this person https://github.com/jethrovt
2019-11-05T10:04:32Z no-defun-allowed: 404?
2019-11-05T10:05:09Z LdBeth the GitHub profile is deleted along with all the repos under this account
2019-11-05T10:05:23Z LdBeth: Including some lisp machine stuff
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2019-11-05T10:16:49Z beach: LdBeth: So it's normal that the link does not work?
2019-11-05T10:18:57Z phoe: LdBeth: it seems that the only Lisp repository was genera fonts
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2019-11-05T10:19:19Z LdBeth: beach: the link worked a year ago
2019-11-05T10:19:27Z beach: Oh, I see.
2019-11-05T10:19:51Z no-defun-allowed: Oh yeah, that repository. I don't know where that went either.
2019-11-05T10:20:50Z no-defun-allowed: It is not too difficult to replicate if you have the Genera code somewhere. They live in sys.sct/fonts.
2019-11-05T10:21:51Z no-defun-allowed: And I wrote half of a clean-room reader for that format and made a couple of TrueType fonts.
2019-11-05T10:22:39Z LdBeth: After one year I picked up Knuth’s metafont
2019-11-05T10:23:14Z phoe: the best I have is https://web.archive.org/web/20180613023443/https://github.com/jethrovt/genera-fonts
2019-11-05T10:24:21Z LdBeth: phoe: thanks. What I’ve looking for is the preview imgs
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2019-11-05T10:32:16Z jackdaniel: shka__: it was suggested to me that I should ask you for a feedback with a dataframes protocols given you have written one implementation (https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-frames), I'd appreciate it if you could comment on this API specification gist: https://gist.github.com/dkochmanski/e575bc6e6d0386f537067b75726e3fb4
2019-11-05T10:32:19Z phoe: LdBeth: no idea if the Archive has those.
2019-11-05T10:32:45Z jackdaniel: (also, if others have remarks I'd appreciate them as well, please put them in comments section - thank you)
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2019-11-05T10:43:07Z shka__: jackdaniel: i will gladly try to help
2019-11-05T10:43:18Z jackdaniel: thank you
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2019-11-05T10:46:51Z shka__: jackdaniel: this is row-wise oriented data frames, right?
2019-11-05T10:47:25Z jackdaniel: yes
2019-11-05T10:47:43Z shka__: ok, this changes my perspective slightly
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2019-11-05T11:20:05Z shka__: jackdaniel: there was an attempt ;-)
2019-11-05T11:20:26Z shka__: at constructive comment that is
2019-11-05T11:20:31Z shka__: (by me)
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2019-11-05T11:26:49Z jackdaniel: thank you, they all make sense. I've answered in a comment
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2019-11-05T11:39:43Z florest: Hi there!
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2019-11-05T11:52:43Z phoe: heyyyy
2019-11-05T11:52:51Z shka__: what's going on?
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2019-11-05T12:05:27Z beach: Hello florest.  Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
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2019-11-05T12:10:00Z florest: could you to recommends  small http lisp server?
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2019-11-05T12:12:05Z shka__: florest: hunchentoot?
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2019-11-05T12:13:50Z florest: ty! i'll check this
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2019-11-05T12:15:25Z Cymew: Is hunchentoot "small"?
2019-11-05T12:16:25Z Cymew: It's probably a decent codebase, worth checking out if you want to see how a http server is written, but I am not sure it classifies as small.
2019-11-05T12:17:08Z beach: I was about to ask why it is important that it be small.
2019-11-05T12:17:23Z beach: I guess maybe it is meant for toasters and such.
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2019-11-05T12:20:26Z shinohai: Is "toot" still maintained? iirc was stripped-down version of huchentoot.
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2019-11-05T12:22:16Z florest: ahah, no. I just want to try lisp in web and i decided to start with a simple
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2019-11-05T12:28:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: florest: for a simple web server, look at ningle/clack
2019-11-05T12:29:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: They make it relatively simple to start serving web pages
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2019-11-05T12:39:25Z jackdaniel: if he is going to look at the code ningle/clack is a mess - unlike hunchentoot
2019-11-05T12:39:47Z jackdaniel: so I wouldn't recommend ningle
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2019-11-05T12:42:03Z Cymew: Agreed.
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2019-11-05T12:51:39Z shka__: jackdaniel: i forgot to ask one more thing, is this protoocl somehow releated to CLIM?
2019-11-05T12:52:41Z jackdaniel: shka__: it is for polclot
2019-11-05T12:52:47Z jackdaniel: so yes
2019-11-05T12:52:57Z shka__: ok, great
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2019-11-05T12:53:28Z jackdaniel: we are going to embrace layered graphics grammar from ggplot2
2019-11-05T12:53:34Z shka__: polclot was for plotting?
2019-11-05T12:54:11Z shka__: great, I would love to make cl-data-frames compatible
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2019-11-05T12:57:03Z jackdaniel: polyclot* yes it is
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2019-11-05T22:18:09Z phoe: aaaah
2019-11-05T22:18:16Z phoe: I thought I would be doing some PRs
2019-11-05T22:18:23Z phoe: but then gall stones happened
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2019-11-05T22:36:01Z pjb: phoe: the only reason why we want to transfer to computer system: to avoid suffering, to be free to program 24/24 7/7, becoming pure spirits…
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2019-11-05T22:39:52Z phoe: to become the REPL that we commune with every working day
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2019-11-05T22:43:32Z White_Flame: we conjure the spirits of the computer with our spells
2019-11-05T22:45:56Z phoe: we cons up flesh and bone for the functions of the past
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2019-11-05T23:34:17Z oni-on-ion: phoe, these are good thoughts
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2019-11-06T01:54:51Z JohnTalent: the thing about lisp is the lisp source is always floating around.
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2019-11-06T05:30:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-06T05:36:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning, beach
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2019-11-06T06:37:20Z emaczen: what is the status of android development in CL?
2019-11-06T06:37:53Z emaczen: the cliki.net/ implementation page doesn't seem to have changed in a long time
2019-11-06T06:38:44Z beach: Someone here has been using ECL on Android.
2019-11-06T06:39:09Z Josh_2: There is Mocl but I don't know if it is still developed
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2019-11-06T06:40:07Z aeth: I think some people in #lispgames have experimented with ECL
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2019-11-06T06:40:53Z beach: emaczen: Go to the logs and search for "android".  I think the person doing it is thijso.
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2019-11-06T06:44:20Z oni-on-ion: dto wrote about using ECL for 'droid
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2019-11-06T06:46:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: emaczen: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/7aj4sr/eql5android_now_tested_on_phones_try_for_yourself/
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2019-11-06T06:54:11Z emaczen: beach: thanks, I see thijso's project
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2019-11-06T07:42:40Z jackdaniel: ECL works on Android
2019-11-06T07:42:53Z jackdaniel: EQL5-Android gives you QT, dto experimented with SDL
2019-11-06T07:43:53Z jackdaniel: there is pending work by Paul Ruetz and Marius Gerbershagen on IOS (they've got working builds but there are still issues)
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2019-11-06T08:50:28Z francogrex: i have an example of an object like (set '*fvm* (make-instance 'foil:foreign-vm ...
2019-11-06T08:52:27Z francogrex: the content doesn't matter, but inspection shows: The object is a STANDARD-OBJECT of type FOREIGN-VM.
2019-11-06T08:52:28Z francogrex: 0. STREAM: #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "socket 127.0.0.1:53251, peer: 127.0.0.1:13579" {1003FC66F3}>
2019-11-06T08:52:28Z francogrex: 1. FREF-TABLE: #<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQL :COUNT 0 {1003FCBC43}>
2019-11-06T08:52:31Z francogrex: 2. SYMBOL-TABLE: #<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQL :COUNT 0 {1003FCC2D3}>
2019-11-06T08:52:34Z francogrex: 3. FREE-LIST: NIL
2019-11-06T08:53:28Z francogrex: my question, how can I completely ERASE *fvm* and its contents, like destry this object, not just set the symbol to nil
2019-11-06T08:54:02Z pjb: What does it mean to erase a foreign-vm ?
2019-11-06T08:54:24Z pjb: (defmethod erase ((self foreign-vm)) …) (erase *fvm*) (setf (erase *fvm*) nil)
2019-11-06T08:55:16Z pjb: Note: there may be other references to the foreign-vm.  erase should leave a usable instance (able to receive any message a foreign-vm can receive without crashing.)
2019-11-06T08:55:36Z pjb: See for example delete-package.
2019-11-06T08:55:41Z francogrex: pjb, delete the slots of the object etc... like the hash tables all will be GONE
2019-11-06T08:56:24Z pjb: Ok, so: (defmethod erase ((self foreign-vm)) (setf (fref-table self) nil (symbol-table self) nil (free-list self) nil) …)
2019-11-06T08:56:29Z pjb: what else?
2019-11-06T08:56:53Z pjb: Or, perhaps use slot-makunbound ?
2019-11-06T08:56:56Z francogrex: i know it can create instability, I just want to learn how to do it
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2019-11-06T08:57:10Z pjb: Just do it.
2019-11-06T08:57:26Z pjb: There's nothing magical to the magic.
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2019-11-06T08:59:30Z Shinmera: you don't delete objects in Lisp, you just stop using them.
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2019-11-06T09:03:18Z pjb: Well, in OOP you can define whatever you want. You can define what it means for an object to be in the state "erased", and to provide transitions (methods) to and from this state.
2019-11-06T09:03:34Z pjb: OOP is cool, because you can do whatever you want with it.
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2019-11-06T09:07:38Z phoe: francogrex: what do you mean "delete"
2019-11-06T09:07:58Z phoe: I'd close the stream and let everything else be garbage-collected
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2019-11-06T09:11:51Z pjb: If there are things that are open, perhaps more than an erase or delete operation, you need a close operation, and a with-open-foreign-vm macro…
2019-11-06T09:14:39Z phoe: ^
2019-11-06T09:15:21Z pjb: being open or closed are usually important states in the lifecycle of an object…
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2019-11-06T09:35:36Z francogrex: pjb: no need to delete. your erase method is ok
2019-11-06T09:35:51Z francogrex: but i am having issues with using it
2019-11-06T09:38:25Z francogrex: (defmethod erase ((self foil::foreign-vm)) (setf (foil::fref-table self) nil (foil::symbol-table self) nil (foil::free-list self) nil))
2019-11-06T09:38:35Z beach: How come you do not trust the garbage collector?
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2019-11-06T09:39:38Z no-defun-allowed: There's quite a few :: in your symbols too.
2019-11-06T09:39:39Z francogrex: The function (COMMON-LISP:SETF FOIL::FREF-TABLE) is undefined.
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2019-11-06T09:40:13Z Duuqnd: francogrex: Use SLOT-VALUE, then.
2019-11-06T09:41:41Z francogrex: like (clrhash (slot-value *fvm* 'FOIL::FREF-TABLE)) etc?
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2019-11-06T10:00:46Z phoe: francogrex: you haven't defined accessors for your class, so SETF FREF-TABLE won't work
2019-11-06T10:01:22Z phoe: also why do you erase it at all? the instance will be GCed when it is no longer in use
2019-11-06T10:01:28Z phoe: no matter what its slot values are
2019-11-06T10:01:42Z phoe: the only thing you need to remember is to close the strea
2019-11-06T10:01:43Z phoe: m
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2019-11-06T11:43:38Z pjb: francogrex: see, it depends on the design of your class (the set and implementation of the methods working on your instances).  If the hash-table is not leaked by your public API, and if your accessor check for NIL, you can just set the slot to NIL (or unbind it if the accessor check for slot-boundp), and let the GC sever the references from the hash-table to the keys and values.
2019-11-06T11:44:21Z pjb: francogrex: but if your methods return the hash-table itself, or if you don't test for NIL or unbound, then you will want to empty the hash-table with clrhash, and keep the empty hash-table in the slot.
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2019-11-06T13:29:08Z francogrex: phoe: sorry for late reply. In this case I cannot rely on lisp deciding to make a random GC, I have to manually manage the objects because of synchrony between java and lisp
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2019-11-06T13:29:58Z francogrex: pjb: ok for clrhash
2019-11-06T13:31:00Z pjb: Depending on why you want to "erase" or close a foreign-vm.  hash-table have a lot of overhead.  It may be better to free them entirely…
2019-11-06T13:34:58Z francogrex: pjb:  the overhead is coming actually more from a java hashmap that I will need to clear but clearning the java hashmap and neglecting to clear also the lisp hashtable connected to it was causing asynchrony... it's a project called FOIL, which is good but buggy and I am trying to make it better
2019-11-06T13:35:17Z pjb: ok.
2019-11-06T13:35:31Z pjb: francogrex: what about using abcl for this?
2019-11-06T13:35:49Z pjb: then you wouldn't need to keep both lisp and java objects.
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2019-11-06T13:39:42Z ck_: is abcl still maintained? I had some trouble a while ago.
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2019-11-06T13:45:25Z francogrex: pjb: yes abcl is great for that (scheme kawa, jscheme actually workd fine in those), however I am trying as much as possible not to lose my mind by keeping switching from one implementation to another; if I can keep everything in my current sbcl the better.
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2019-11-06T13:49:54Z phoe: francogrex: so you have foreign objects of sorts that stay inside a JVM?
2019-11-06T13:50:12Z phoe: Are they managed on the Java side or the JVM side?
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2019-11-06T14:18:56Z francogrex: phoe: they are not very well managed on either side really, I saw that when I used a jconsole dump, the heap kept growing expeonentially. the drama was more on the JVM side
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2019-11-06T16:06:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: francogrex: are you sure the objects are still live?
2019-11-06T16:07:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it's still the case that the JVM doesn't like to release memory it allocates, unless you pass the right VM options
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2019-11-06T16:28:00Z francogrex: fiddlerwoaroof: I am sure they are alive
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2019-11-06T16:28:27Z francogrex: a hastable won't just trash itself no matter in which programming language
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2019-11-06T16:51:08Z luis: Has anyone implemented something like ACL's excl:re-case on top of CL-PPCRE's register-groups-bind?
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2019-11-06T17:00:38Z Bike: i haven't heard of it, but it seems like it could be done without too much trouble... (re-case string (re1 foo) (re2 bar)) could expand into something like (block #:g0 (register-groups-bind (...) (re1 ...) (return-from #:g0 foo)) (register-groups-bind (...) (re2 ...) (return-from #:g0 bar)) nil)?
2019-11-06T17:00:49Z Bike: at least for the basic cases
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2019-11-06T17:04:28Z erkin: Does anyone know what happened to ISLISP? It seems to have completely stalled before reaching any considerable momentum.
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2019-11-06T17:05:04Z erkin: Now there're two extant implementations (both one-person projects) that appear to be barely used.
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2019-11-06T17:06:53Z erkin: I feel like it could've fit in a niche between CL and Scheme, but it somehow failed somewhere along the lines.
2019-11-06T17:07:14Z dlowe: this would be a better question for ##lisp
2019-11-06T17:07:15Z beach: Since ISLISP is not Common Lisp, it is off-topic, but maybe it was ISLISP that jackdaniel was planning to use for bootstrapping ECL?
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2019-11-06T17:07:31Z erkin: Ah, I thought I was in ##lisp, my mistake.
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2019-11-06T17:12:01Z shka_: good evening!
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2019-11-06T17:15:39Z florest: good evening :)
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2019-11-06T17:22:10Z LdBeth: erkin: it’s just happened that ISLISP has no good free/open source implementation.
2019-11-06T17:23:20Z LdBeth: erkin: it is essentially a cut down version of CL, so don’t expect too much from it.
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2019-11-06T17:25:30Z erkin: I see. Such a shame though, I feel like there could be a suitable niche for a minimal CL-like language.
2019-11-06T17:26:49Z jackdaniel: beach: no, my idea was to add eulisp as another supported language to ecl
2019-11-06T17:28:29Z LdBeth: erkin: I think eulisp could be such a candidate
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2019-11-06T17:28:39Z erkin: It seems developer of OpenLisp is also maintaining a LeLisp implementation.
2019-11-06T17:28:51Z erkin: Last updated 2016
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2019-11-06T17:29:01Z erkin: LdBeth: I didn't know EuLisp was alive!
2019-11-06T17:30:12Z beach: jackdaniel: Ah, OK, now I remember.
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2019-11-06T17:33:24Z jackdaniel: ECoLisp (known now as ECL) originally hosted a few languages and was specified in terms of CLR (common language runtime) which ABI was based on C's ABI (i.e it had prolog implementation)
2019-11-06T17:34:31Z shka_: wow
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2019-11-06T17:34:32Z jackdaniel: but I did nothing to pursue this goal, there are more pressing improvements for ECL worth implementing
2019-11-06T17:37:21Z LdBeth: I guess POPLOG is no longer maintained
2019-11-06T17:38:17Z erkin: It seems to have been last updated this July: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/poplog/freepoplog.html
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2019-11-06T17:38:49Z erkin: But poplog.org got domainsquatted. Still available on Wayback Machine (going back to 1999) though.
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2019-11-06T17:55:46Z jackdaniel: shka_:  "spreadshit" for polyclot dataframes https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/6871201/68323776-67031000-00c6-11ea-95a4-b463d9fb49c4.png ;-)
2019-11-06T17:55:59Z shka_: i made that typo?
2019-11-06T17:56:20Z jackdaniel: now, I've called it that because it is not a spreadsheet, just a poor man's hack
2019-11-06T17:56:23Z jackdaniel: s/now/no/
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2019-11-06T17:56:32Z shka_: good, i had a panic attack
2019-11-06T17:56:45Z shka_: i am actually replying to your comment
2019-11-06T17:57:15Z shka_: this poor man's hack is more then I was able to do myself so this helps a lot
2019-11-06T17:58:17Z shka_: and it fact i will probably use it for displaying data at work
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2019-11-06T17:58:54Z jackdaniel: see "slim" library - while it has somewhat instable api, it has a less verbose table creation api
2019-11-06T17:59:02Z jackdaniel: s/instable/unstable/
2019-11-06T17:59:28Z jackdaniel: it is a syntactic sugar playground for now, I hope it will grow into something more
2019-11-06T17:59:29Z shka_: i would rather try to avoid extra libs for the time being, I would like to learn pure CLIM first
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2019-11-06T17:59:54Z shka_: also, this code is about the same size as printing table to repl
2019-11-06T17:59:58Z shka_: which is nice!
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2019-11-06T18:09:21Z luis: Bike: yeah, that looks like a decent implementation strategy. Any suggestions on how to augment register-groups-bind syntax for binding the whole match? (register-groups-bind (&whole match x y) ("f([a-z])([a-z])" "foo") (list match x y)) => ("foo" "o" "o") maybe?
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2019-11-06T18:10:25Z Bike: wrap the whole regex to make it a named group?
2019-11-06T18:10:49Z Bike: does re-case do that, though?
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2019-11-06T18:26:58Z luis: Bike: yes, I think so. You have to specify by number which named group you're binding too and group 0 is the whole match.
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2019-11-06T18:29:02Z luis: Bike: adding the extra group works nicely, yeah. Thanks for the tip. I briefly considered that option but discarded it prematurely because I have vague memories of having trouble with nested groups in the past. ;-)
2019-11-06T18:34:34Z Bike: ahhh yes i see, missed that in the documentation
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2019-11-06T18:45:24Z purelazy: Is there a LISP (on Linux) which can print functions?
2019-11-06T18:45:52Z purelazy: It would be for educational purposes
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2019-11-06T18:46:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: purelazy: this is probably a ##lisp question
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2019-11-06T18:47:28Z dlowe: purelazy: what would a printed function look like?
2019-11-06T18:47:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, some common lisp implementations store the source of a function and it can be accessed with FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION sometimes
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2019-11-06T18:49:57Z luis: Bike: I'm not terribly excited about the syntax I came up with: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/snippets/117 :-/
2019-11-06T18:51:01Z pjb: I would put the regexp first in the clauses, and why the parentheses?
2019-11-06T18:51:36Z pjb: (register-groups-case string ("b(a)r" (a) (list a)) ("f(.)(.)" (o1 o2) (list o1 o2)))
2019-11-06T18:51:37Z Bike: options to the scanner
2019-11-06T18:51:46Z Bike: but, i don't see why you can't mimic re-case's syntax exactly
2019-11-06T18:51:47Z pjb: options are optional.
2019-11-06T18:52:06Z luis: pjb: I'm trying to be coherent with register-groups-bind's syntax
2019-11-06T18:52:13Z pjb: ok.
2019-11-06T18:52:17Z luis: pjb: they are optional, but the regex is not necessarily constant
2019-11-06T18:52:35Z luis: pjb: so a non-constant regex would be ambiguous with options
2019-11-06T18:52:54Z Bike: you're allowing non constant regexes?
2019-11-06T18:52:56Z pjb: So it's more like progv than case.
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2019-11-06T18:54:00Z dlowe: if you stuck to constant regexes you could take advantage of cl-ppcre's being compiled
2019-11-06T18:54:03Z luis: It's allowing non constant regexes but not non-constant bindings
2019-11-06T18:54:33Z luis: dlowe: non constant regexes should be prepared with ppcre:create-scanner, I suppose.
2019-11-06T18:54:46Z Bike: register-groups-bind does that automatically, i'm almost sure
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2019-11-06T18:55:04Z Bike: it will expand into a call to scan, and cl-ppcre's compiler macro on scan will take care of it
2019-11-06T18:55:05Z luis: Bike: yes, scan does that for constant regexes.
2019-11-06T18:55:30Z Bike: at load time rather than compile time, i guess, but that usually won't matter
2019-11-06T18:56:20Z luis: I suppose register-groups-case could not take options. That would simplify the syntax a lot. Until you need to use an option and then you're screwed :)
2019-11-06T18:57:34Z dlowe: so there's always the option of specifying the options within the regex
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2019-11-06T18:58:21Z Bike: well here's my hot take on the syntax, i'd put the regex first
2019-11-06T18:58:23Z luis: Hmm. Maybe the syntax for options could be (register-groups-case string ("b(a)r" (a) (list a)) ((:regex "f(.)(.)" :more-options t) (o1 o2) (list o1 o2)))?
2019-11-06T18:58:32Z Bike: i guess that way it doesn't match register-groups-bind, but it's more like how a case construct works
2019-11-06T18:58:38Z Bike: or looks. looks
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2019-11-06T19:00:39Z dlowe: I mean you can just do "(?i)f" for case-insensitive, "(?m)" for multiline, etc
2019-11-06T19:00:55Z luis: Or even better. Only allow options for constant strings. Yeah, that should work. (register-groups-case string ("b(a)r" (a) (list a)) (("f(.)(.)" :more-options t) (o1 o2) (list o1 o2)))
2019-11-06T19:01:46Z dlowe: you don't need to support options external to the regex :p
2019-11-06T19:01:51Z Bike: so looking at it, the options that register-groups-binds actually aceepts are start, and, and sharedp
2019-11-06T19:01:58Z Bike: and the first two are actually for the target string, not the regex per se
2019-11-06T19:02:08Z Bike: having different ones in a case might e a little weird
2019-11-06T19:02:13Z Bike: be a little
2019-11-06T19:02:24Z Bike: "start, end, and" sticky fingers today
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2019-11-06T19:08:37Z luis: Bike: D'oh. Good point.
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2019-11-06T19:10:46Z luis: dlowe: sort of. I kind of wish ppcre:scan took the same arguments as ppcre:create-scanner. It's a bit annoying that it doesn't. Am I missing something?
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2019-11-06T19:12:25Z flip214: luis: well, you could wrap the required flags (case insensitive etc.) around the (ppcre:parse-string) representation before passing that on to SCAN.
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2019-11-06T19:20:18Z Bike: luis: i mean, you pass the result of create-scanner to scan, no? having the arguments in scan too would be a bit redundant
2019-11-06T19:20:53Z Bike: (scan string ...) is just a convenience shortcut for (scan (create-scanner string) ...)
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2019-11-06T19:22:16Z luis: Bike: I suppose so. I'm used to excl:match-re which does that.
2019-11-06T19:23:24Z Bike: so it does. i guess edi decided not to go with that
2019-11-06T19:23:37Z Bike: passing a compiled regex and also those parameters is awkward
2019-11-06T19:23:59Z luis: That's a good point.
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2019-11-06T19:26:08Z luis: flip214: do you mean I could use "(?i)" and things like that?
2019-11-06T19:28:08Z dlowe: that's what I saaaaaaaid
2019-11-06T19:28:22Z luis: dlowe: got it now. :-)
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2019-11-06T19:29:11Z luis: dlowe: ah, you actually said that explicitly. I missed it, sorry. Switching around between laptop and smartphone. :-)
2019-11-06T19:29:44Z Bike: cl-ppcre is based on the regexp2 module, if i'm not mistaken
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2019-11-06T19:30:12Z Bike: i personally have never used the for profit implementations so that's about the extent of my understanding. good thing they have manuals online
2019-11-06T19:30:35Z luis: Bike: I've noticed that you can compile cl-ppcre such that it delegates all the actual work to regexp2
2019-11-06T19:31:19Z dlowe: luis: :
2019-11-06T19:31:21Z dlowe: luis: :)
2019-11-06T19:31:48Z luis: Bike: CL-PPCRE's documentation suggests that it's regexp2 that's based on cl-ppcre, actually.
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2019-11-06T19:32:28Z Bike: hmm. you're right
2019-11-06T19:32:43Z luis: http://edicl.github.io/cl-ppcre/#allegro
2019-11-06T19:33:29Z Bike: "The details are: Calls to CREATE-SCANNER and SCAN are dispatched to their AllegroCL counterparts EXCL:COMPILE-RE and EXCL:MATCH-RE while everything else is left as is." how straightforward
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2019-11-06T20:45:10Z Josh_2: Are there any other discord api libraries like lispcord?
2019-11-06T20:45:14Z Josh_2: Lispcord seems to be broken
2019-11-06T20:46:17Z dlowe: could you fix it?
2019-11-06T20:46:33Z dlowe: and perhaps contribute your fix upstream?
2019-11-06T20:46:55Z dlowe: more to the point, do you think fixing it would be easier than rewriting all your stuff to use something else
2019-11-06T20:47:07Z Josh_2: Well I don't have a bot
2019-11-06T20:47:12Z Josh_2: I want to write one
2019-11-06T20:50:06Z shinohai: Josh_2: https://github.com/stibear/cl-discord ?
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2019-11-06T20:58:47Z Josh_2: That doesn't appear to work either ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2019-11-06T20:58:53Z Josh_2: I suppose I will try to fix lispcord
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2019-11-06T21:19:28Z shinohai: Oh well, been a while since I've done any discord stuffs.
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2019-11-07T03:00:14Z rien_: what is the name of the traversal that I need to do to prettyprint from an AST?
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2019-11-07T05:05:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-11-07T05:21:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning, beach
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2019-11-07T06:21:10Z flip214: luis: I meant `(:SEQUENCE :START-ANCHOR (:FLAGS :CASE-INSENSITIVE-P) #\a)
2019-11-07T06:21:43Z flip214: luis: I meant (cl-ppcre:scan `(:SEQUENCE :START-ANCHOR (:FLAGS :CASE-INSENSITIVE-P) ,(cl-ppcre:parse-string my-regex)) ...)
2019-11-07T06:22:04Z flip214: but that's non-constant so won't be compiled in at that place
2019-11-07T06:22:50Z flip214: unless some macro expands that into some static quoted data, of course
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2019-11-07T07:55:01Z pjb: rien_: code walking, if you wan to print differently subforms of different kinds.
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2019-11-07T10:36:54Z beach: Is it allowed to have a type name defined by DEFTYPE which also is the name of a class?  And if so, which one takes priority?
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2019-11-07T10:40:43Z Shinmera: clhs 4.1
2019-11-07T10:40:43Z specbot: Introduction: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_a.htm
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2019-11-07T10:41:52Z Shinmera: What do you expect to happen if you do that?
2019-11-07T10:42:38Z beach: I don't know.  That's why I am asking.
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2019-11-07T10:42:57Z Shinmera: Since both are defined to define a type, I would assume whichever comes later to be the effective type definition.
2019-11-07T10:43:13Z beach: OK.
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2019-11-07T10:44:06Z Shinmera: defclass furthermore states: "Defining a new class also causes a type of the same name to be defined. The predicate (typep object class-name) returns true if the class of the given object is the class named by class-name itself or a subclass of the class class-name."
2019-11-07T10:44:23Z Shinmera: So I would assume that makes it invalid to define a type after a class of the same name.
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2019-11-07T10:44:46Z beach: That seems quite reasonable.
2019-11-07T10:45:03Z Shinmera: Given that the new type definition won't erase the class, and thus the above must still hold
2019-11-07T10:45:21Z beach: Perhaps it is even invalid to do it the other way around.
2019-11-07T10:46:05Z beach: I.e., perhaps the answer to my first question is "no".
2019-11-07T10:47:07Z Shinmera: clhs 4.3.7
2019-11-07T10:47:07Z specbot: Integrating Types and Classes: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_cg.htm
2019-11-07T10:47:14Z Shinmera: "Every class that has a proper name has a corresponding type with the same name."
2019-11-07T10:47:29Z Shinmera: So yeah, I'd say "no."
2019-11-07T10:47:46Z beach: Thanks.
2019-11-07T10:47:51Z beach: I tend to agree.
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2019-11-07T10:49:23Z beach: SBCL allows the deftype, but signals a warning.
2019-11-07T10:50:06Z beach: Same for the inverse order.
2019-11-07T10:50:40Z beach: OK, I think I have all the elements.
2019-11-07T10:50:49Z beach: Shinmera: Thanks again.
2019-11-07T10:50:56Z beach: And now, lunch.
2019-11-07T10:55:09Z Shinmera: Sure.
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2019-11-07T12:35:20Z flip214: Is there some good way to have local methods to GF? Yes, I can use MOP to remove the method with UNWIND-PROTECT, or have a default method on T use a handler via a special variable... the latter one would at least be correct w.r.t. the dynamic environment, and possibly faster as the GF isn't recalculated
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2019-11-07T12:37:42Z luis: flip214: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss181_w.htm might be of interest
2019-11-07T12:37:48Z _death: also contextl
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2019-11-07T12:39:30Z luis: Right you can defined layered methods. Not sure if that's what flip214 meant by local.
2019-11-07T12:39:46Z Shinmera: flip214: what's the use-case?
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2019-11-07T12:40:11Z flip214: I meant a method on a GF that's "temporarily" visible - although that should mean "lexically" rather than the chronological sense.
2019-11-07T12:41:06Z flip214: Shinmera: adding a new "handled" case to a GF that is only used in a small part of code because I (generally) can't assume that this is valid for every use-case.
2019-11-07T12:41:55Z Shinmera: So you call out to another function that then calls a GF that you would like to temporarily subvert?
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2019-11-07T12:43:32Z flip214: basically, yeah. And (not right now, but generally) I can't know what other code wants to run the same GF - perhaps at the same time.
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2019-11-07T12:43:46Z heisig: flip214: Lexical modification of generic functions sounds scary and inefficient.  Are you 100% sure this is what you want?
2019-11-07T12:44:19Z Shinmera: flip214: The only idea I have is to have a catchall method that checks a dynamic variable and invokes the closure in that if present.
2019-11-07T12:44:29Z heisig: Sounds like you could also solve the problem by providing two generic functions instead of one, and maybe a third one to handle the shared functionality.
2019-11-07T12:44:36Z luis: Shinmera: or use contextl :-)
2019-11-07T12:44:49Z Shinmera: luis: I don't know that, so I cannot comment.
2019-11-07T12:45:17Z luis: Shinmera: if you squint hard enough, you've just described contextl ;-)
2019-11-07T12:45:26Z Shinmera: Ah, alright.
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2019-11-07T12:46:16Z flip214: heisig: no. that's why I'm asking ;)
2019-11-07T12:47:07Z luis: flip214: _death's suggestion is good. Although, there's probably a simpler way to implement whatever you're doing, checking out contextl is a good idea.
2019-11-07T12:47:09Z Shinmera: Also the modification is not lexical, but rather dynamic.
2019-11-07T12:47:31Z flip214: Shinmera: yeah, right. that was my idea as well - whether my lisp throws an error because there's no method or I throw (perhaps the same?) error because the special is currently NIL gets the same result.
2019-11-07T12:47:50Z Shinmera: flip214: You can also invoke no-applicable-method yourself to make it appear the same.
2019-11-07T12:48:00Z flip214: Shinmera: ah yeah, right. dynamic, not only lexical.
2019-11-07T12:48:07Z luis: yeah, I'm not sure how it would work lexically. It'd only catch direct calls in that lexical environment. Might as well use flet and an etypecase or something?
2019-11-07T12:48:15Z flip214: Shinmera: yes, exactly.
2019-11-07T12:48:26Z flip214: luis: no, dynamic is what I want anyway. sorry about the confusion!
2019-11-07T12:48:40Z luis: flip214: check out contextl, then.
2019-11-07T12:51:21Z flip214: I've read about contextl already - but I would have to check whether that can be interoperably used on an existing GF.
2019-11-07T12:51:34Z flip214: never mind, my question has been answered already -- thanks to all!
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2019-11-07T13:02:56Z clothespin_: are there any tools which instrument foreign heap usage which can be used with sbcl?
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2019-11-07T14:38:28Z jmercouris: any way to get the URL of a quicklisp repository via CL rather than looking on disk?
2019-11-07T14:38:45Z jmercouris: s/quicklisp repostiroy/system available in a quicklisp dist
2019-11-07T14:39:20Z jmercouris: I'm asking because I've done (ql:system-apropos "xyz") and I'm trying to see if a match corresponds to a repository I found on GitHub
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2019-11-07T14:49:26Z Xach: jmercouris: the quicklisp-projects is the source of that info and it's not directly exposed via quicklisp commands
2019-11-07T14:49:32Z Xach: quicklisp-projects repo
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2019-11-07T15:09:53Z jmercouris: Xach: OK, thanks
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2019-11-07T15:42:27Z luis: SBCL complains about (ppcre:register-groups-bind (n) ("f(\\d+)" "f42") (read-from-string n)) since it thinks n could be NIL. Is there any way to appease the type checker?
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2019-11-07T15:43:55Z luis: Hmm. (when n ...) is the obvious way, of course. Missed it because I had the same issue twice in the same function. :-)
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2019-11-07T15:46:12Z Xach: luis: that's been around for a long time. i wish it wasn't necessary.
2019-11-07T15:46:18Z Bike: in case you don't know, you can just do (register-groups-bind ((n #'parse-integer)) (...) n), though in a limited case like that it's not much clearer
2019-11-07T15:46:33Z Xach: the last time i asked i think it had to do with heuristics for hiding unreachable code notes
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2019-11-07T15:48:34Z Bike: i mean it could actually be a problem, right? with a regex where the group isn't always captured, anyway, and it's probably hard to make whether a group is required perfectly clear...
2019-11-07T15:48:34Z luis: Bike: not sure what you mean. That doesn't compile.
2019-11-07T15:48:40Z Bike: it doesn't?
2019-11-07T15:48:41Z Bike: hm
2019-11-07T15:48:58Z luis: Bike: true, it could be NIL if the regex has fewer groups for instance.
2019-11-07T15:49:39Z luis: I think I might write a version of register-groups-bind that only selects the clause if all register-groups are non-nil.
2019-11-07T15:49:48Z Bike: oh, i got it backwards
2019-11-07T15:49:59Z Bike: (#'parse-integer n)
2019-11-07T15:50:07Z Bike: that is, (ppcre:register-groups-bind ((#'parse-integer n)) ("f(\\d+)" "f42") n) => 42
2019-11-07T15:50:53Z luis: Bike: ah, nice!
2019-11-07T15:53:02Z Bike: i would think a group not binding would mean it's part of a conditional or something
2019-11-07T15:53:10Z Bike: so that's you know, fine
2019-11-07T15:53:19Z Bike: probably intentional
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2019-11-07T18:06:45Z notme: hello
2019-11-07T18:07:47Z Duuqnd: hello
2019-11-07T18:09:50Z notme: looks like a busy channel :P
2019-11-07T18:10:17Z ck_: check the logs -- it's not always as it appears right now
2019-11-07T18:10:36Z Shinmera: This is a strict topic channel, so there's no idle chatter.
2019-11-07T18:10:49Z Duuqnd: usually
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2019-11-07T18:12:24Z notme: ok, good to know
2019-11-07T18:13:33Z notme: so, usually, it's used to asked technical question I imagine? (it's my first time on IRC, I'm not sure how to "check the logs")
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2019-11-07T18:14:57Z Shinmera: Specifically questions or discussion about Common Lisp, yes.
2019-11-07T18:15:13Z Shinmera: The channel topic includes several links for sites that host logs of this channel.
2019-11-07T18:15:13Z edgar-rft: notme: look at one of the links from the channel topic: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>
2019-11-07T18:16:04Z notme: edgar-rft: thanks
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2019-11-07T18:17:33Z notme: I have a question: does any body here uses sbcl on nixos?
2019-11-07T18:18:06Z ck_: not me
2019-11-07T18:18:25Z edgar-rft: I'm on debian here
2019-11-07T18:22:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: notme: I've used nix with lisp on mac
2019-11-07T18:23:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: And there are some things like ql2nix floating around
2019-11-07T18:23:34Z notme: did you have any problem with the version of asdf?
2019-11-07T18:24:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: not when I tried it, but it's been a while
2019-11-07T18:25:32Z notme: ok. interestingly, there's a pacakge to "manage" quicklisp in nixos. And it seems to come with it's own version of asdf.
2019-11-07T18:25:52Z notme: Anyway, I shall ask on #nixos instead
2019-11-07T18:26:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd look for the maintainer and file a github issue or something
2019-11-07T18:28:21Z notme: yeah, I was thinking about that
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2019-11-07T20:42:21Z rien_: pjb: thank you, that helped me find what I was looking for!
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2019-11-07T21:08:08Z Josh_2: Why does case not work with constants?
2019-11-07T21:08:20Z Josh_2: (defconstant +ree+ 10) (case 10 (+ree+ "abc")) doesn't work :O
2019-11-07T21:08:24Z Bike: Um, it does? Or do you mean constant variables like from defconstant yeah ok.
2019-11-07T21:08:34Z Josh_2: but (case 10 (10 "abc")) does
2019-11-07T21:09:11Z Bike: the standard doesn't actually mandate that defconstant make a compile time constant, though it does in probably most implementations
2019-11-07T21:09:26Z Bike: so it's not enough for case
2019-11-07T21:09:39Z Bike: you can do (case 10 (#.+ree+ "abc")), though
2019-11-07T21:09:49Z Josh_2: ah
2019-11-07T21:10:04Z Josh_2: so I shouldn't use it because It's undefined?
2019-11-07T21:10:11Z Josh_2: or does #. bypass the problem?
2019-11-07T21:11:41Z Josh_2: I'll just use #. :D
2019-11-07T21:11:45Z Bike: well, it is technically undefined, but it usually works
2019-11-07T21:11:49Z Josh_2: hmm
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2019-11-07T21:12:02Z Bike: and if it doesn't work in some implementation it should be pretty obvious
2019-11-07T21:12:10Z Bike: you'll get an error like "unbound variable +REE+"
2019-11-07T21:12:59Z Josh_2: Okay :)
2019-11-07T21:13:01Z Josh_2: Thanks!
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2019-11-07T21:16:17Z Bike: no problem
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2019-11-07T22:33:27Z White_Flame: Josh_2: custom macros to tweak the behavior of cond or case are not uncommon, either
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2019-11-08T00:01:33Z pfdietz: In place of writing custom versions of macros like COND or CASE, one can modify them on the fly using *MACROEXPAND-HOOK*.
2019-11-08T00:01:34Z minion: pfdietz, memo from phoe: the comments at https://gist.github.com/phoe/335fecfdc195bddd47ab0928b0e62e52 are good and outline errors in my reasoning. We're back to the drawing board, except now I wonder if commenting out the ANSI-TESTs that test the LOOP FINALLY variable values wouldn't be the best option if their value is to be treated as undefined.
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2019-11-08T01:08:05Z Josh_2: https://imgur.com/lmULrif.png does that error output suggest a problem with fast-io?
2019-11-08T01:13:24Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe. I would peep into the fast-websocket.compose:compose-frame sources since it is given an awful lot of NILs too, and I imagine one is supposed to be the data sent or something like that.
2019-11-08T01:17:16Z Bike: did you pass a simple vector instead of a byte vector?
2019-11-08T01:17:22Z Bike: to... something
2019-11-08T01:19:16Z no-defun-allowed: I think the issue is that fast-write-sequence was given NIL, which is an odd choice for a sequence to write.
2019-11-08T01:20:23Z Bike: oh. yeah. nevermind me
2019-11-08T01:20:34Z Bike: i would guess the problem is at a higher level than fast io, though
2019-11-08T01:20:41Z Bike: something's getting passed something wrong
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2019-11-08T01:21:09Z Josh_2: Bike: I didn't pass nuffin
2019-11-08T01:21:22Z Bike: surely you called a function at some point.
2019-11-08T01:21:24Z Josh_2: Well I obviously did
2019-11-08T01:21:46Z Bike: and probably passed it some arguments
2019-11-08T01:21:48Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, anything above send-identify could be messing up. Also a good excuse to (ql:update-all-dists) but I don't know if anything important has been updated recently.
2019-11-08T01:21:52Z Josh_2: But Im using websockets and I think that is where the problem comes from
2019-11-08T01:22:02Z Josh_2: no-defun-allowed: I will try that
2019-11-08T01:22:13Z Bike: without seeing the higher level calls it's hard to guess
2019-11-08T01:22:36Z no-defun-allowed: Actually, you probably don't need to, websocket-driver hasn't updated since then.
2019-11-08T01:22:42Z Josh_2: oof
2019-11-08T01:22:56Z no-defun-allowed: My next best guess is that the connection dropped?
2019-11-08T01:23:02Z Josh_2: Nope
2019-11-08T01:23:13Z Josh_2: It's possible but everytime this happens
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2019-11-08T01:35:07Z Josh_2: okay fixed it
2019-11-08T01:38:36Z no-defun-allowed: What's the most precise method of timing execution of a function? i-t-u-p-s looks too small.
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2019-11-08T03:07:03Z buffergn0me: no-defun-allowed: CCL has both rdtsc and clock_gettime. Does not look like SBCL does
2019-11-08T03:08:30Z no-defun-allowed: Right. I don't know how local-time gets the time, but it goes down to nanoseconds which will suffice.
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2019-11-08T05:53:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-08T06:06:28Z ebrasca: Morning beach!
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2019-11-08T07:09:13Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: SBCL has sb-ext:get-time-of-day on non-windowsoids.
2019-11-08T07:09:35Z no-defun-allowed: That's good to know too.
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2019-11-08T07:11:07Z Shinmera: Actually it also works on windows, I forgot
2019-11-08T07:11:19Z Shinmera: Just uses the non-posix api underneath
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2019-11-08T09:59:43Z _Fremen_: hello everyone
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2019-11-08T10:00:05Z _Fremen_: is lisp really the most powerful programming language?
2019-11-08T10:00:21Z surrounder: no
2019-11-08T10:00:32Z beach: Hello _Fremen_.
2019-11-08T10:02:24Z beach: _Fremen_: The question is meaningless since we have no single measure for "power" of a programming language.
2019-11-08T10:03:14Z _Fremen_: beach: hmm, I read a blog post years ago that supported this view.
2019-11-08T10:03:15Z Shinmera: _Fremen_: It is if you want it to be
2019-11-08T10:03:26Z pjb: The most powerful programming language is the one that is connected to nuclear missiles, that you can launch with (launch-missile (first (missile-list)) :target (coordinates _Fremen_)).
2019-11-08T10:03:34Z Shinmera: a lot of people want it to be, so a lot of blog posts go around saying so.
2019-11-08T10:04:17Z pjb: It's probably FORTRAN.
2019-11-08T10:04:33Z _Fremen_: how about this view? "lisp is the latin of programming languages, it may not help you talk to more people but it will help you be better at languages"
2019-11-08T10:04:52Z _Fremen_: I am sorry this is all subjective questions
2019-11-08T10:05:27Z beach: _Fremen_: There is a #lispcafe channel for that kind of stuff.  Here, we stick to discussions about Common Lisp.
2019-11-08T10:05:38Z heisig: _Fremen_: Here is my take: A language can only ever be so powerful as the programmer that uses it.  Lisp makes people better programmers.  And it doesn't constrain good programmers.  So that's something.
2019-11-08T10:06:01Z _Fremen_: beach: ok I will check it out :).
2019-11-08T10:06:06Z _Fremen_: thanks for your time
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2019-11-08T10:10:58Z pjb: _Fremen_: perligata is the latin of programming languages.  Not that you cannot do the same in Lisp, with reader macros, but it's kind of antagonistic to lisp.
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2019-11-08T10:45:45Z Shinmera: I'm finally making a bit more progress with Alloy again. Put together a simple image viewer demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bENuJoXtHi4
2019-11-08T10:46:15Z Shinmera: I also started writing high-level documentation recently, so hopefully that'll be enough to convince some other people to work on it as well. https://shirakumo.github.io/alloy
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2019-11-08T10:52:40Z shka__: Shinmera: could use FAQ
2019-11-08T10:53:18Z shka__: for instance: "why alloy?"
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2019-11-08T11:37:53Z Shinmera: shka__: I don't think I've heard enough questions yet for any of them to be considered frequent
2019-11-08T11:48:57Z flip214: easye: will you be at sbcl20?
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2019-11-08T12:08:00Z flip214: UIOP had a spawn-program function, is that gone again? Or just not yet in QL, and I had the git version in use before?
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2019-11-08T12:09:09Z Shinmera: it's launch-program
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2019-11-08T12:12:23Z flip214: ah, right. thanks!
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2019-11-08T13:03:43Z hjudt: Shinmera: if you define :fix on the parent test in parachute, do the child tests inherit this? if yes, how exactly would it work?
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2019-11-08T13:05:26Z Shinmera: hjudt: let me check the source.
2019-11-08T13:06:02Z Shinmera: hjudt: Fixtures are only applied for the body test itself, not its children.
2019-11-08T13:07:14Z Shinmera: What is the behaviour you would like to have?
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2019-11-08T13:08:31Z hjudt: actually it was just for clarification. could have been that if i define fixtures for the parent test that it will also be applied to the body of the children.
2019-11-08T13:08:55Z hjudt: but that would probably not be such a good idea anyway.
2019-11-08T13:09:00Z Shinmera: yeah, I realise that that's ambiguous. I'll have a look through the docs to see if I can clarify it somewhere.
2019-11-08T13:09:08Z hjudt: because some tests might not need it
2019-11-08T13:10:21Z Shinmera: Colleen: look up parachute test and result evaluation
2019-11-08T13:10:21Z Colleen: Test and result evaluation https://shinmera.github.io/parachute#test_and_result_evaluation
2019-11-08T13:10:33Z Shinmera: "The default evaluation procedure for a test itself is to simply call all the functions in the `tests` list in a `with-fixtures` environment."
2019-11-08T13:10:39Z Shinmera: I suppose that kind of states this.
2019-11-08T13:12:08Z hjudt: ah ok thanks
2019-11-08T13:12:40Z hjudt: maybe could you also clarify what you mean with this: "You can also tell it to hold all the symbols accessible to a certain package in place by giving it a package designator as a keyword, gensym, or string. Using with-fixtures, this can also be done locally. It expects an evaluated list of fixtures."
2019-11-08T13:12:47Z Shinmera: I'll add a clarifying note.
2019-11-08T13:13:13Z Shinmera: What part is unclear?
2019-11-08T13:13:14Z hjudt: in the example, where are you giving it a package designator as a keyword?
2019-11-08T13:13:46Z hjudt: ah sorry, i missed that that is a list ;-)
2019-11-08T13:13:47Z Shinmera: Ah, I only exemplify he latter part, not the package.
2019-11-08T13:14:37Z hjudt: hm. actually, no it is not clear. what exactly do you mean with this sentence?
2019-11-08T13:14:57Z Shinmera: Which sentence
2019-11-08T13:15:17Z hjudt: ""You can also tell it to hold all the symbols accessible to a certain package in place by giving it a package designator as a keyword, gensym, or string."
2019-11-08T13:15:49Z hjudt: would it lock the complete package?
2019-11-08T13:15:56Z hjudt: i mean all symbols in this package?
2019-11-08T13:16:26Z hjudt: e.g. if i wrote :quicklisp, it would fix all symbols in the quicklisp package?
2019-11-08T13:16:34Z Shinmera: yes
2019-11-08T13:18:10Z hjudt: so i can simply use the package designator to protect the package against manipulation instead of listing each single symbol that i fear might be changed.
2019-11-08T13:18:39Z Shinmera: That's the idea
2019-11-08T13:19:06Z Shinmera: The way it's implemented might need to be changed though, now that I think about it
2019-11-08T13:19:17Z Shinmera: since it protects /all accessible symbols/, not just external ones
2019-11-08T13:19:45Z Shinmera: which might trigger package locks.
2019-11-08T13:21:27Z hjudt: using package designators would make the tests less vulnerable to implementation changes and perhaps less fragile in regard to such changes.
2019-11-08T13:21:46Z Shinmera: Okey, I pushed a new documentation page. Hopefully the wording is clearer now.
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2019-11-08T13:23:01Z hjudt: yes, thanks
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2019-11-08T13:23:58Z Shinmera: If you run into problems with the current package fixtures, let me know.
2019-11-08T13:24:11Z Shinmera: I haven't used them myself, so they're not, uh, tested well
2019-11-08T13:25:54Z hjudt: so far i have only tested fixing special variables using :fix. from my experience this worked good.
2019-11-08T13:26:39Z hjudt: it is a nice way to do tdd
2019-11-08T13:27:15Z hjudt: i still wonder whether it is better to specify single symbols instead of everything in the package.
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2019-11-08T13:51:41Z ym: Is there X Server implementation? Found only mention on ycombinator with broken link to github (repo deleted, IIUC).
2019-11-08T13:54:37Z ym: And seems like it's not X server.
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2019-11-08T13:55:55Z beach: ym: https://www.cliki.net/CLXS
2019-11-08T13:57:11Z beach: Written by nyef, but he no longer hangs out here I think.
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2019-11-08T13:58:16Z ym: Nice. Thanks.
2019-11-08T13:58:54Z beach: Sure.
2019-11-08T13:59:36Z dlowe: huh. last seen March 2017
2019-11-08T14:01:50Z dlowe: Last common-lisp.net activity Nov 2017
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2019-11-08T14:03:58Z beach: He used to hang out in #clim.
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2019-11-08T14:06:43Z dlowe: March 2018
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2019-11-08T14:09:57Z beach: Right.
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2019-11-08T17:17:20Z mouseghost: so im using sbcl and (cons 1 2) works but (1 . 2) doesn't seem to work
2019-11-08T17:17:23Z mouseghost: why?
2019-11-08T17:17:33Z mouseghost: is it something to be expected?
2019-11-08T17:18:25Z mouseghost: debugger invoked on a TYPE-ERROR in thread hm
2019-11-08T17:19:28Z beach: mouseghost: Are you trying to evaluate (1 . 2)?
2019-11-08T17:19:35Z beach: That is not a valid form.
2019-11-08T17:19:36Z mouseghost: beach, i just write it in repl
2019-11-08T17:19:52Z beach: Try (quote (1 . 2)) or '(1 . 2).
2019-11-08T17:20:10Z mouseghost: works, thanks!
2019-11-08T17:20:22Z mouseghost: though... why is that? beach
2019-11-08T17:20:43Z Xach: mouseghost: that's how the evaluation rules work
2019-11-08T17:20:57Z mouseghost: hm
2019-11-08T17:20:58Z beach: (cons 1 2) is a form that, when evaluated, returns a CONS cell with 1 in the CAR slot and 2 in the CDR slot.
2019-11-08T17:21:06Z Xach: mouseghost: when the evaluator is presented with a cons, it looks at the first thing and decides how to treat the rest of the thing.
2019-11-08T17:21:39Z mouseghost: beach, and (1 . 2) is just that?
2019-11-08T17:21:45Z Xach: a number isn't a valid first thing
2019-11-08T17:21:51Z beach: That's a CONS cell, yes.
2019-11-08T17:22:21Z beach: You are trying to evaluate that CONS cell, but it is not in itself a valid expression to evaluate.
2019-11-08T17:22:35Z mouseghost: ahm
2019-11-08T17:23:01Z mouseghost: do you perhaps have some examples of how that would eval.? Xach
2019-11-08T17:23:11Z mouseghost: if it was a proper first thing
2019-11-08T17:23:39Z Xach: mouseghost: how what would eval?
2019-11-08T17:23:42Z Xach: a number?
2019-11-08T17:23:56Z beach: clhs 3.1.2.1.2
2019-11-08T17:23:56Z specbot: Conses as Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm
2019-11-08T17:24:05Z beach: mouseghost: Check that link.
2019-11-08T17:24:54Z mouseghost: oh huh
2019-11-08T17:25:26Z mouseghost: so basically s-expressions are cons?
2019-11-08T17:26:13Z beach: Not always.  They can be atomic as well.
2019-11-08T17:26:28Z beach: 234 is a perfectly good S-expression.
2019-11-08T17:26:34Z Xach: atomic is defined as "not a cons", so that covers it
2019-11-08T17:26:45Z mouseghost: well or that
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2019-11-08T17:28:41Z mouseghost: * (#'two . 2) doesnt work either .w. maybe i misunderstood something
2019-11-08T17:29:15Z beach: You did.
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2019-11-08T17:29:59Z beach: I think you should read a book on Common Lisp.
2019-11-08T17:30:16Z beach: If you already know some programming, try this one:
2019-11-08T17:30:27Z beach: minion: Please tell mouseghost about PCL.
2019-11-08T17:30:28Z minion: mouseghost: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2019-11-08T17:31:00Z mouseghost: ah yes this one
2019-11-08T17:31:01Z mouseghost: thanks
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2019-11-08T17:31:11Z mouseghost: but yay i did make it work (two . (2))
2019-11-08T17:32:10Z Xach: that is equivalent to and more commonly written as (two 2)
2019-11-08T17:34:05Z mouseghost: yep i see that's what it returned
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2019-11-08T17:41:31Z pjb: mouseghost:  you should read chapter 3. http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/chap-3.html
2019-11-08T17:41:56Z mouseghost: oh no even more hyperspec
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2019-11-08T17:43:08Z pjb: Otherwise, indeed, lisp is nice to the users.  If you really want to put parentheses around your function arguments, you can: (sin . (42)) #| --> -0.91652155 |#
2019-11-08T17:43:49Z mouseghost: why 42
2019-11-08T17:43:58Z mouseghost: oh, is it an answer to the ultimate question?
2019-11-08T17:44:05Z pjb: Yes. Also #b101010
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2019-11-08T17:45:26Z mouseghost: pjb, i was wondering what does it mean for a minute :D
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2019-11-08T17:46:54Z mouseghost: also #x2a :P
2019-11-08T17:46:56Z mouseghost: but thats not as pretty
2019-11-08T17:47:32Z mouseghost: BUUUT, if a = 0 then a-2=x, no?
2019-11-08T17:47:46Z mouseghost: sorry for going offtopic
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2019-11-08T19:35:02Z tankf33der: o/
2019-11-08T19:35:28Z mouseghost: o/
2019-11-08T19:35:41Z tankf33der: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21483256
2019-11-08T19:35:49Z dlowe: mouseghost: not on #clschool?
2019-11-08T19:36:30Z tankf33der: Parsed 20M nested brackets on PicoLisp, maximum i can do on 8GB laptop. Yeah.
2019-11-08T19:36:39Z mouseghost: dlowe, im not autojoined and i needed to ask a question about why doesnt this work so i asked here
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2019-11-08T19:37:21Z dlowe: mouseghost: sure, I'm not criticizing, just surprised
2019-11-08T19:38:00Z mouseghost: dlowe, im on both now
2019-11-08T19:39:16Z LdBeth: rua! #lisp
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2019-11-08T19:46:10Z edgar-rft: mouseghost has upgraded to #lisp now :-)
2019-11-08T19:46:21Z mouseghost: nah nah nah not yet
2019-11-08T19:46:35Z mouseghost: edgar-rft, i dont even use emacs yet so how could i have upgraded?
2019-11-08T19:48:23Z LdBeth: u don't have to use emacs to write lisp
2019-11-08T19:49:20Z edgar-rft: you only need emacs on #emacs, on #lisp it's sufficient to use lisp :-)
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2019-11-08T19:59:34Z pjb: in ccl, we're also limited to the maximum stack depth. I would have expected being able to go over 10 million, or actually, up to filling the RAM with conses, but no, the maximum is close to 8000: (flet ((depth (x) (loop while x sum 1 do (setf x (car x)))))  (depth (read-from-string (format nil "~V@{(~}~:*~V@{)~}" 8000 nil)))) #| --> 7999 |#
2019-11-08T20:00:05Z pjb: Simply, the parser is recursive, so we are limited by the stack.
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2019-11-08T20:00:55Z pfdietz: I've found even in SBCL you don't want to use recursion to go down lists, because of stack space concerns.  Going down car recursively isn't so much of a problem.
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2019-11-08T20:04:06Z pjb: In (((((…))))) it is.
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2019-11-08T20:16:17Z mouseghost: good cus im more of a vim person :E
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2019-11-08T20:54:19Z flip214: pjb: you could try to set the ulimit stack size for ccl; new threads should then get a stack that big.
2019-11-08T20:54:56Z flip214: mouseghost: for vim I'd suggest to look at either slimv or vlime (both are vim plugins)
2019-11-08T20:55:11Z mouseghost: fetched slimv already
2019-11-08T20:55:24Z flip214: right
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2019-11-08T21:03:35Z mouseghost: oh yeah its so cool :O just that it should be noted that it can have problems with dos endings. i had to change slime.el to unix endings
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2019-11-08T21:03:48Z mouseghost: probably cus im using plugin manager
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2019-11-08T23:17:26Z jmercouris: if someone were to ask you, why should they learn lisp, what would you say? I know many articles about this topic, I'm interested in short personal answers
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2019-11-08T23:19:37Z oni-on-ion: "when we develop our own Lisp, we are essentially on a highly egocentric endeavor: the quest for a language perfect for us and only for us, which may be found only if we gain a deep understanding of our true self, completely disregarding the outside world. Programming Lisp, and in Lisp, is thus a highly introspective journey."
2019-11-08T23:20:02Z jmercouris: Not sure if you are being facetious or not, hard to tell over text
2019-11-08T23:20:07Z oni-on-ion: "Instead, is more a philosophy of music, even more so a musical process: grabbing musical bits and pieces everywhere, and making a happy melting pot out of those influences, in a way which is specific to each Jazz musician."  --- i think these are both from the free article "Lisp, Jazz, and Aikido"
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2019-11-08T23:20:53Z LdBeth: The cost of learning a new programming language is trivial —ldbeth
2019-11-08T23:21:05Z dra: jmercouris: Facetious answer from me: If they ask why they should, they shouldn't.
2019-11-08T23:21:18Z dra: jmercouris: Honest answer from me: To gain perspective.
2019-11-08T23:21:47Z jmercouris: dra: what kind of perspective?
2019-11-08T23:22:37Z LdBeth: I agree with the point that if they ask why they’re not prepared
2019-11-08T23:22:46Z jmercouris: "The cost of truly internalizing a new programming language is non-trivial" -jmercouris
2019-11-08T23:23:26Z jmercouris: I think saying that learning a new programming language is trivial is simply false
2019-11-08T23:23:59Z LdBeth: It’s just syntax, semantics, and design patterns
2019-11-08T23:24:14Z jmercouris: Yeah, and flying to the moon is just physics, gas, and some calculations
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2019-11-08T23:24:29Z jmercouris: anything can be trivialized and summed up in a fun little snippet
2019-11-08T23:24:43Z oni-on-ion: "moon landing" <- good compression!
2019-11-08T23:24:46Z jmercouris: please avoid saying things like that in the future as they can be heavily discouraging to newcomers
2019-11-08T23:25:24Z LdBeth: But once you’ve been to the moon it it very likely to Mars
2019-11-08T23:25:43Z jmercouris: What does that even mean? that doesn't make any sense as a response to what I've said
2019-11-08T23:26:14Z jmercouris: Imagine a new developer starting to learn a language, having some difficult and being told "hey, this is super easy", they'll conclude that it isn't for them and simply give up
2019-11-08T23:26:25Z oni-on-ion: about perspective, i think that "gaining" perspective here is not of what kind of perspective. but of gaining more of them (but can be said for learning any new thing)
2019-11-08T23:27:06Z LdBeth: Even languages intentionally designed to be hard to use follows some common patterns
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2019-11-08T23:27:40Z dra: jmercouris: oni-on-ion is right.
2019-11-08T23:28:14Z jmercouris: this is however a very general statement, and not specific to Lisp though
2019-11-08T23:28:52Z LdBeth: But it is hard to spot such a pattern by just using one or two languages
2019-11-08T23:29:38Z LdBeth: Thus I encourage people to try out different langs, not limited to lisp though
2019-11-08T23:29:53Z dra: jmercouris: Also true. I learned Ada for the same reason. But understanding Lisp seemed more rewarding.
2019-11-08T23:31:43Z dra: jmercouris: I implemented this in Ada: http://web.sonoma.edu/users/l/luvisi/sl3.c
2019-11-08T23:32:00Z dra: And once I understood what I had written I was hooked.
2019-11-08T23:32:06Z jmercouris: dra: looks like C to me
2019-11-08T23:32:15Z jmercouris: you are saying you made a Lisp in ADA?
2019-11-08T23:32:15Z dra: That's because it is.
2019-11-08T23:32:54Z dra: A minimal consing Lisp interpreter, yes.
2019-11-08T23:33:38Z pjb: Still looks like C, not ada…
2019-11-08T23:33:53Z dra: It is. I re-implemented that in Ada.
2019-11-08T23:34:02Z pjb: No url, no proof.
2019-11-08T23:34:51Z jmercouris: Unfortunately, I have to agree
2019-11-08T23:35:19Z dra: Uhm...
2019-11-08T23:35:40Z jmercouris: it is okay though, you don't have to prove it
2019-11-08T23:36:03Z dra: No, I don't. It's just the story that brought me to Lisp.
2019-11-08T23:38:20Z LdBeth: I believe though. But Ada is very strict at pointer casting
2019-11-08T23:41:52Z dra: jmercouris: https://pastebin.com/2h5S2jTY
2019-11-08T23:42:14Z dra: There's part of it...
2019-11-08T23:42:51Z jmercouris: aha! :-)
2019-11-08T23:43:08Z jmercouris: you know what, as Lispers I think we should make smileys like this :-()
2019-11-08T23:43:17Z jmercouris: otherwise we would have an unmatched paren
2019-11-08T23:43:55Z shinohai: (:-)
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2019-11-08T23:44:14Z no-defun-allowed: :c
2019-11-08T23:44:26Z oni-on-ion: half of us do :) the other half do (:
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2019-11-08T23:44:29Z jmercouris: c:
2019-11-08T23:45:21Z oni-on-ion: or for every sad thing :( a happy thing must be said :)
2019-11-08T23:46:39Z dra: :|(| and :|)|
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2019-11-08T23:56:24Z oni-on-ion: heh
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2019-11-09T00:03:12Z sahara3: hola
2019-11-09T00:03:55Z dra: Hi.
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2019-11-09T01:17:03Z arichiardi: minion: registration, please?
2019-11-09T01:17:04Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=e6dda8b7 will be valid until 01:30 UTC.
2019-11-09T01:17:34Z arichiardi: ups, account block
2019-11-09T01:18:09Z arichiardi: "Your account has been blocked. Please contact your GitLab administrator if you think this is an error."
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2019-11-09T01:29:23Z arichiardi: Hi, is anyone here able to help me with registering at common-lisp.net? I think I am stuck :D
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2019-11-09T01:35:02Z edgar-rft: arichiardi: there's a #common-lisp.net channel if nobody answers here
2019-11-09T01:35:18Z arichiardi: oh ok thank you!
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2019-11-09T03:04:37Z gendl: Hi, is there a portable way to get the path to the running executable?
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2019-11-09T04:15:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-09T05:46:35Z Josh_2: Mornin!
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2019-11-09T06:09:23Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2019-11-09T07:25:04Z Shinmera: gendl: (uiop:argv0)
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2019-11-09T13:38:39Z gendl: Shinmera: thanks, but that seems to return NIL all the time.
2019-11-09T13:38:44Z gendl: I ended up with this:
2019-11-09T13:38:52Z gendl: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/RBFC54Nq/
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2019-11-09T13:39:25Z gendl: where (glisp:basic-command-line-arguments) is my trivial veneer for command-line args.
2019-11-09T13:39:35Z Shinmera: It returns a value in a deployed image.
2019-11-09T13:40:11Z Shinmera: Otherwise it's (first (uiop:raw-command-line-arguments))
2019-11-09T13:41:22Z gendl: hmm.. i'm running  a dumped image (if that's the same as what you mean by deployed), and (uiop:argv0) returns NIL.
2019-11-09T13:41:43Z gendl: Thanks for the tip on (uiop:raw-command-line-arguments) though! That can replace my glisp thing.
2019-11-09T13:42:43Z Shinmera: It needs to be dumped through ASDF's program-op stuff, or you have to set uiop:*image-dumped-p* to T
2019-11-09T13:42:52Z Shinmera: then argv0 should work too.
2019-11-09T13:42:59Z gendl: Got it.
2019-11-09T13:43:06Z Shinmera: don't ask me why it is the way it is, I think it's stupid
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2019-11-09T21:33:23Z adip: what kind of format (get-decoded-time) uses to return value? how can I convert it's output to a list or just get nth element?
2019-11-09T21:35:19Z shka_: adip: eh, just use local-time library
2019-11-09T21:35:36Z shka_: i personally gave up trying to handle time myself
2019-11-09T21:35:53Z Bike: it's multiple values. you can do (multiple-value-list (get-decoded-time)) to get a list, or you can use multiple-value-bind.
2019-11-09T21:35:58Z shka_: and i am just using local-time
2019-11-09T21:36:11Z adip: Bike: thx
2019-11-09T21:37:09Z adip: shka_: I just need year, getting a lib for that would be an overkill :D
2019-11-09T21:37:45Z shka_: unless timezones
2019-11-09T21:37:50Z shka_: ;-)
2019-11-09T21:38:11Z shka_: i hate handling dates
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2019-11-09T21:39:41Z oni-on-ion: hehe. im taking that out of context =P
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2019-11-09T21:40:31Z shka_: well, as a profoundly unattractive male, i suspect that both interpretations are correct
2019-11-09T21:40:40Z shka_: good night all!
2019-11-09T21:40:51Z adip: xD
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2019-11-10T04:55:37Z mabox: MIT SANDWITCH STALLMAN DEFENCE AT Cristosan.com
2019-11-10T04:56:28Z no-defun-allowed: Fucking again?
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2019-11-10T05:15:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-10T09:40:29Z TLSer: hey there, currently reading the little schemer and wanna try out my implementations on guile, however I always get "ERROR: Wrong type to apply (a b c)".
2019-11-10T09:40:31Z TLSer: https://paste.sh/TRCEsuMq#shMSUk7XWk-RYjaHQX66owRy
2019-11-10T09:42:26Z aap: cdr(lat) this can't be right
2019-11-10T09:42:53Z TLSer: no sexpr, right?
2019-11-10T09:43:01Z aap: also i think this channel isn't about scheme
2019-11-10T09:43:05Z aap: you mean (cdr lat)
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2019-11-10T09:44:25Z TLSer: isn't scheme just a dialect, and therefore a subset of lisp, and therefore part of lisp?
2019-11-10T09:44:41Z no-defun-allowed: The topic says Common Lisp, and Scheme is not Common Lisp.
2019-11-10T09:45:03Z no-defun-allowed: But I don't like telling people to go elsewhere without any consideration, and aap is right in saying that cdr(lat) is probably a typo, which should be (cdr lat).
2019-11-10T09:45:31Z aap: the channel name is a bit confusing really
2019-11-10T09:45:42Z aap: common lisp isn't the only lisp
2019-11-10T09:47:19Z TLSer: ok, thx for the help anyway
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2019-11-10T09:57:56Z beach: aap: There is no consensus about what it means for a language to be "a Lisp".  We avoid the ambiguity here by considering only Common Lisp.
2019-11-10T10:00:02Z aap: yeah i understand that but i still think the channel name is confusing
2019-11-10T10:01:55Z pjb: TLSer: for lisp in general, you want ##lisp, for scheme in particular you want #scheme, and for guile specifically, #guile.
2019-11-10T10:03:11Z pjb: TLSer: note: once you've tested for null?, you only know that lat is not (), so (car lat) can fail, because you haven't tested for (cons? lat).
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2019-11-10T10:23:22Z flip214: when writing a macro, is there some library that allows to attach source forms to parts of the resulting code so that errors during runtime can display the correct part of the input?
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2019-11-10T10:30:40Z ArthurStrong: Hi all. Don't you think that PS/PDF versions of Guy Steele book CTLT is somewhat pale? I can't read it :( I tried to recomplie it from source code, but it requires too old Latex :( What can I do?
2019-11-10T10:30:43Z pjb: flip214: There's &whole and you can use it yourself in your error messages. You don't need a library for that!!!
2019-11-10T10:31:24Z pjb: ArthurStrong: install an old linux with an old latex in a VM.
2019-11-10T10:31:32Z pjb: This is the easiest.
2019-11-10T10:32:11Z ArthurStrong: pjb: oh, too hard-core
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2019-11-10T10:36:55Z pjb: flip214: but sometimes you want to give better human readable context, and the error can be detected outside of the macro, so you can do something like this: https://pastebin.com/ibMtzUsN
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2019-11-10T10:46:41Z jmercouris: ArthurStrong: what about changing the contrast of your display?
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2019-11-10T11:00:36Z ArthurStrong: jmercouris: maybe I'm paranoid, but it's like letters are too thin
2019-11-10T11:00:42Z ArthurStrong: jmercouris: TeX's quirk maybe
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2019-11-10T11:13:54Z ArthurStrong: Hi all. What do you use instead of assert()?
2019-11-10T11:14:06Z jackdaniel: (assert (= 1 2))
2019-11-10T11:14:41Z ArthurStrong: jackdaniel: I see, thanks. Is this standard or in external module?
2019-11-10T11:15:19Z no-defun-allowed: clhs assert
2019-11-10T11:15:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_assert.htm
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2019-11-10T11:15:58Z ArthurStrong: thanks!
2019-11-10T11:16:00Z jackdaniel: it is a standard macro
2019-11-10T11:16:02Z jackdaniel: clhs assert
2019-11-10T11:16:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_assert.htm
2019-11-10T11:16:12Z jackdaniel: oh
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2019-11-10T11:17:19Z jackdaniel: if you want a testing framework otoh, then you have too many options. if you are a minimalist take 1am, otherwise I'd advise you to choose between fiveam and fiasco
2019-11-10T11:18:08Z Shinmera: My very biased recommendation would be parachute.
2019-11-10T11:18:31Z pjb: I'm partial to com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.simple-test.
2019-11-10T11:18:34Z Shinmera: But there's a new one pretty much every month, so pyp
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2019-11-10T11:25:35Z jmercouris: (format t "hello world")
2019-11-10T11:26:07Z ArthurStrong: Which lisp has the best Windows support? Had issues with SBCL...
2019-11-10T11:26:07Z no-defun-allowed: do you even write-line
2019-11-10T11:26:39Z jmercouris: sometimes
2019-11-10T11:26:44Z jmercouris: ArthurStrong: corbol lisp
2019-11-10T11:26:50Z jmercouris: sorry corman
2019-11-10T11:27:04Z jmercouris: ArthurStrong: you can find it here: https://github.com/sharplispers/cormanlisp
2019-11-10T11:27:18Z Shinmera: no
2019-11-10T11:27:31Z jmercouris: yes
2019-11-10T11:27:36Z Shinmera: corman is very broken.
2019-11-10T11:27:49Z jmercouris: that it is, but he said "Windows support"
2019-11-10T11:28:01Z ArthurStrong: OK, thanks anyway
2019-11-10T11:28:09Z Shinmera: CCL is currently the best bet, though I have not experienced any problems with it myself.
2019-11-10T11:28:15Z Shinmera: *with SBCL myself
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2019-11-10T11:28:39Z jmercouris: what about Lispworks or Allegro?
2019-11-10T11:28:49Z Shinmera: We're on Freenode
2019-11-10T11:28:51Z pjb: freenode is about free software.
2019-11-10T11:28:58Z jmercouris: and...?
2019-11-10T11:29:21Z pjb: we don't discuss much commercial software here.
2019-11-10T11:29:42Z pjb: I'd guess most of us don't use much commercial software either, anyways.
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2019-11-10T11:29:47Z jmercouris: I do!
2019-11-10T11:30:55Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: please do not recommend corman lisp - it is a very cool project but it is far less stable than other free implementations
2019-11-10T11:31:29Z jackdaniel: presenting uninformed opinions as informed recommendations may put person who ask for a recommendation in a peculiar situation
2019-11-10T11:31:47Z jmercouris: woah woah! I'm very informed, I'm well aware of the problems
2019-11-10T11:32:06Z jmercouris: however it says "Windows support" which has a very nebulous meaning, does he mean integration with a windows compiler toolchain?
2019-11-10T11:32:12Z jmercouris: does he mean "designed" for windows?
2019-11-10T11:33:08Z jackdaniel: if you are informed then please live up to that claim
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2019-11-10T11:33:49Z jmercouris: :-) aye aye captain
2019-11-10T11:35:39Z pjb: In any case, using CL implementations more on MS-Windows can only improve them, by finding and correcting bugs.
2019-11-10T11:35:48Z pjb: So go ahead, use sbcl or ccl!
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2019-11-10T11:38:48Z ArthurStrong: After installing CBCL on Windows, it just can't find sbcl.core during startup. Wrong path...
2019-11-10T11:41:01Z jmercouris: I would very much suggest Lispworks
2019-11-10T11:41:11Z jmercouris: you can play with the demo version or you can get a one month trial if you contact them
2019-11-10T11:41:19Z jmercouris: failing that, I would choose another OS to develop on
2019-11-10T11:42:04Z ArthurStrong: jmercouris: I see, thanks
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2019-11-10T11:46:05Z jackdaniel: ArthurStrong: if you want a working environment without much effort please take a look at portacle ( Shinmera's project)
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2019-11-10T11:46:14Z jackdaniel: minion: plesae tell ArthurStrong about portacle
2019-11-10T11:46:16Z minion: watch out, you'll make krystof angry
2019-11-10T11:46:45Z jackdaniel: ArthurStrong: https://portacle.github.io/
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2019-11-10T11:49:43Z jmercouris: who is krystof?
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2019-11-10T12:33:03Z pfdietz74: I've recently been using SBCL under Windows Subsystem for Linux on Windows 10.  There are some issues, but they are WSL issues.  Waiting for the "real" WSL to be available.
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2019-11-10T16:38:58Z vms14: Xach, has quicklisp a logo?
2019-11-10T16:39:26Z vms14: or will have?
2019-11-10T16:40:16Z vms14: is this "Q"? https://avatars0.githubusercontent.com/u/325293?s=460&v=4
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2019-11-10T18:14:53Z LdBeth: ArthurStrong: you can obtain the dvi file from CMU AI repository, and obtain PDF by running dvipdf (which is part of a modern TeX distribution). This is what I did anyway. If you’re not likely to install TeX I can send you a copy anyway.
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2019-11-10T18:19:09Z LdBeth: Actually there’s some hbox overflow issue in the original dvi file. So if you want a some more perfect version I’d recommend do as pjb said, get an old latex distribution, and tuning it to avoid hbox overflow
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2019-11-10T18:25:02Z ArthurStrong: LdBeth: thanks, I'll try... in my case, texlive entering into compatibility mode with older Latex and fails to process anything...
2019-11-10T18:26:02Z LdBeth: Because the compatibility mode it not perfect.
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2019-11-10T18:34:32Z LdBeth: ArthurStrong: if you’re interesting we may start a collaborate project converting it to modern LaTeX
2019-11-10T18:37:55Z LdBeth: Actually CLTL2 was prepared on a Macintosh with Bluesky research’s TeX implementation
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2019-11-10T18:40:44Z LdBeth: http://filonenko-mikhail.github.io/cltl2-doc/enpdf/cltl2.pdf
2019-11-10T18:41:10Z LdBeth: Some one has modified the source produced a better version already:)
2019-11-10T18:44:22Z LdBeth: Although it’s from the HTML version instead of the latex source
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2019-11-10T18:47:06Z jackdaniel: if I may ask, what do you need cltl2 for?
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2019-11-10T19:04:41Z pjb: cltl2 could be updated for CL…
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2019-11-10T19:07:47Z pfdietz83: Before you modify it, make sure you have permission to do that. The right to copy and the right to modify are separate rights under copyright law.
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2019-11-10T19:34:06Z ArthurStrong: Well, maybe we can ask Guy Steele himself..
2019-11-10T19:34:15Z ArthurStrong: jackdaniel: to read it?
2019-11-10T19:35:46Z LdBeth decides to only privately distribute the pdf made from the source
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2019-11-10T19:36:27Z LdBeth: https://ml.cddddr.org/info-macl/msg06870.html
2019-11-10T19:36:54Z LdBeth: fun fact: since the release of the source file no one was able to latex it
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2019-11-10T19:40:56Z pjb: Free software must be distributed along with all the sources AND the scripts, makefiles, configuration files, etc needed to rebuild it.
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2019-11-10T19:41:20Z pjb: Therefore: not fun fact: cltl2 is NOT free software.
2019-11-10T19:41:28Z ArthurStrong: Guy Steele also known as contributor to tex and latex. Perhaps his installation has specific hacks
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2019-11-10T19:43:37Z ArthurStrong: s/has/had
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2019-11-10T19:50:05Z jackdaniel: ArthurStrong: I figured that much. maybe I should ask, why are you interested in reading it? for historical reasons or rather you want to compare how Common Lisp evovled between CLtL2 and the ANSI standard?
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2019-11-10T19:51:22Z ArthurStrong: jackdaniel: just want to learn CL. do you mean, Ctlt is outdated already?
2019-11-10T19:52:13Z pjb: ArthurStrong: CLtL2 was printed before CL was standardized.
2019-11-10T19:52:48Z pjb: ArthurStrong: but just with all books, it's still worth, modulo things that have changed.
2019-11-10T19:52:49Z ArthurStrong: so you do not recommend reading it?
2019-11-10T19:53:30Z pjb: I would recommend it, but you must take it with a grain of salt, checking everything with the CLHS.
2019-11-10T19:53:42Z ArthurStrong: OK, I see
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2019-11-10T20:06:59Z flip214: pjb: thanks for the answer. But given some macro invocation, while there are a few forms that will be kept from the source form, I'd like to know whether I can declare the _whole_ macro expansion as coming from that macro call.
2019-11-10T20:09:38Z Bike: flip214: are you talking about what sb-ext:with-current-source-form does?
2019-11-10T20:10:11Z Bike: if so, i don't believe there's any portability interface, or even if any implementation besides sbcl exports such a thing
2019-11-10T20:10:15Z flip214: Bike: yeah, perhaps. Is there some library that gives me generalization across a few implementations?
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2019-11-10T20:10:40Z flip214: Bike: thanks for the pointer, though!
2019-11-10T20:12:53Z jjkola: hi
2019-11-10T20:13:07Z flip214: though that says "in a macroexpander ..." -- that sounds as if it's used sbcl-internally. my macro isn't a macroexpander!?
2019-11-10T20:13:13Z flip214: but I'll just try it. Thanks!
2019-11-10T20:13:17Z Bike: ...er, whta?
2019-11-10T20:13:24Z Bike: you're writing a macro, right? defmacro?
2019-11-10T20:13:28Z Bike: you're writing a macroexpander
2019-11-10T20:13:53Z Bike: well, you can see examples if you look at sbcl's internal macro definitions, like typecase uses it
2019-11-10T20:14:21Z flip214: well, I always considered MACROEXPAND-1 etc. to be the expander
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2019-11-10T20:14:42Z flip214: and not the macros that just "translate" some forms to other forms
2019-11-10T20:14:58Z Bike: well defmacro defines a macro expansion function, i'd say
2019-11-10T20:15:09Z Shinmera: macroexpand just calls the macro function
2019-11-10T20:15:10Z Bike: but whatever, point is i'm pretty certain it's intended to be used in defmacro and the like
2019-11-10T20:16:23Z flip214: I guess so, right
2019-11-10T20:16:48Z flip214: Shinmera: macroexpand first has to decide _which_ function to call, if any. it does quite some more things IMO.
2019-11-10T20:18:55Z flip214: but never mind -- thanks for the pointer!
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2019-11-10T20:36:28Z pjb: flip214: well, macros are expanded outside in, so yes, I guess, you can declare the whole macro expansion as coming from that macro call.  Only, subexpressions can be further expanded.
2019-11-10T20:42:13Z jackdaniel: ArthurStrong: yes, please try reading pcl
2019-11-10T20:42:21Z jackdaniel: minion: please tell ArthurStrong about pcl
2019-11-10T20:42:21Z minion: ArthurStrong: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2019-11-10T20:42:29Z jackdaniel: this is a great book to learn Common Lisp
2019-11-10T20:42:44Z jackdaniel: minion: please tell ArthurStrongabout paip
2019-11-10T20:42:44Z minion: ArthurStrongabout: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2019-11-10T20:42:58Z jackdaniel: ArthurStrong: and this is another great book
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2019-11-10T20:43:21Z ArthurStrong: thanks!
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2019-11-10T20:57:24Z jackdaniel: sure
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2019-11-10T21:04:25Z LdBeth uploaded an image: 螢幕快照 2019-11-10 下午1.03.54.png (94KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/HkRSguwqzWvHDXWhtxaDIgzK >
2019-11-10T21:05:05Z LdBeth: after some effort I do get the first chapter of cltl2 source compile
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2019-11-10T21:58:29Z aeth: Weird, zpb-ttf seems to be incapable of parsing https://github.com/googlefonts/noto-fonts/blob/master/unhinted/NotoSansMono/NotoSansMono-Regular.ttf
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2019-11-10T22:35:45Z semz: Is there a set of guidelines for DSL macros that allow embedded CL code? Think of ITERATE or HTML templating for examples. I'm looking for general designs to keep in mind, common pitfalls, et cetera.
2019-11-10T22:43:28Z MichaelRaskin: Common pitfall: doing some partial kind-of-code-walking and not documenting what exactly you do and what are the limitations
2019-11-10T22:46:19Z MichaelRaskin: Of course, in the HTML templating case you often define some macros that only walk your own DSL, not general CL code (in this case everything is fine)
2019-11-10T22:47:47Z MichaelRaskin: In some cases macrolet is useful.
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2019-11-10T23:28:16Z aeth: MichaelRaskin: a lot of HTML templating does full code walking
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2019-11-10T23:29:14Z aeth: All you really need to support, though is lambda and #' and variables though afaik. #'foo is just (function foo), so you'd just special case ((function foo) ...), (lambda ...), and a symbol that's not a keyword.
2019-11-10T23:29:18Z aeth: semz: ^
2019-11-10T23:29:45Z aeth: and lambda optional since that's by far the trickiest.
2019-11-10T23:30:04Z aeth: s/lambda/lambda's/
2019-11-10T23:32:41Z semz: aeth: Hm. For the sake of argument rather than any practical purpose: What if the body contains another (maybe even different with overlapping syntax) macro that does code walking? It would seem to me that the outer macro would clobber the inner macro's syntax.
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2019-11-10T23:33:26Z semz: Actually I guess you could just macroexpand during the code walker. Never mind.
2019-11-10T23:34:30Z aeth: semz: No, sorry, my point was that you can avoid a needing code walker if you only support functions and variables.
2019-11-10T23:34:48Z aeth: semz: e.g. (:your-macro (:+ foo 42 #'bar))
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2019-11-10T23:36:08Z semz: Ah, I see now.
2019-11-10T23:36:11Z aeth: semz: that could expand to (progn (format stream "~A" foo) (write-string " + " stream) (format stream "~A" 42) (write-string " + " stream) (bar stream))
2019-11-10T23:36:32Z aeth: It would be a bit awkward because anything fancy would exist in a flet above the macro
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2019-11-10T23:36:53Z aeth: but you avoid code walking, you just need to parse (function bar) which is the same as #'bar and then turn it into (bar stream)
2019-11-10T23:37:10Z aeth: or more likely (bar stream #|a bunch of keywords|# :allow-other-keys t)
2019-11-10T23:38:21Z semz: Yeah that's a pretty neat and clean special case.
2019-11-10T23:39:55Z aeth: right, so the only two special cases you need to interface with the outside world are (and (symbolp foo) (not (keywordp foo))) for variables and then in your list parsing check to see if the first element is the symbol cl:function (since #'foo is really the list (function foo))
2019-11-10T23:40:08Z aeth: obviously more can be useful
2019-11-10T23:40:49Z aeth: e.g. if you guarantee that the first element of a list has to be a keyword in your DLS, you could perhaps support more things
2019-11-10T23:40:55Z aeth: s/DLS/DSL/
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2019-11-10T23:47:20Z aeth: semz: The main issue with only supporting the two that I listed is that you'd have to create a closure in a flet any time you wanted custom input since the function is only called with the stream and possibly some keywords representing configuration or whatever, not something local to the function's context. So to say "Hello, $name" you'd need to create a local function that said that, and then call that function with #'your-local-function
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2019-11-10T23:47:43Z aeth: Unless you can represent it as a variable instead, where you can just use name directly.
2019-11-10T23:48:22Z aeth: So you might want to be able to express function calls in a more elaborate way, but you still don't need to support the full language in a code walker.
2019-11-10T23:51:10Z aeth: Alternatively/additionally, you could implement generic functions that are called by your macro at runtime. Then it's easy to add an :after
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2019-11-10T23:55:04Z aeth: You could turn the list (foo bar baz ...) where it doesn't start with a keyword into (foo bar baz ... stream #| keywords go here |# :allow-other-keys t) though, where the allow-other-keys allows your DSL to add more keywords to its API without making a breaking change.
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2019-11-11T02:45:04Z drmeister: Can anyone recommend a common lisp library for GNUPLOT?
2019-11-11T02:45:12Z drmeister: clnuplot is giving me trouble.
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2019-11-11T02:46:41Z no-defun-allowed: I always have used vgplot, but it might not be at the right abstraction level for you.
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2019-11-11T02:55:53Z aeth: drmeister: What's wrong with clnuplot? It should just be generating text based on s-expressions, right? I could probably write one in a weekend since I've already written maybe 4-5 of those.
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2019-11-11T02:56:54Z drmeister: I'm trying eazy-gnuplot
2019-11-11T02:57:05Z drmeister: clnuplot spat up an error the first example I tried.
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2019-11-11T03:00:18Z drmeister: Thank you.
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2019-11-11T03:00:53Z drmeister: I just wrote a Factorio-like simulator for a complex chemical process that generates lots of outputs.  I wanted to graph some quantities.
2019-11-11T03:01:00Z drmeister: I could write one but bleh.
2019-11-11T03:01:08Z drmeister: one = gnuplot interface.
2019-11-11T03:01:21Z drmeister: Hi Fare - what's cookin'?
2019-11-11T03:02:46Z Fare: Programming languages are cooking.
2019-11-11T03:02:49Z drmeister: Fare: Has cracauer been in touch?   We'd like to talk seriously about parallelizing asdf.
2019-11-11T03:02:54Z Fare: Currently using #gerbil-scheme though.
2019-11-11T03:03:25Z Fare: I haven't had contact with Martin for months, when I last invited him to speak at the Boston Lisp Meeting next time he's in town.
2019-11-11T03:03:38Z Fare: I have plenty of ideas on how to parallelize ASDF the right way
2019-11-11T03:03:46Z Fare: OR, you could use Bazelisp...
2019-11-11T03:04:11Z drmeister: Is baselisp written in Common Lisp?
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2019-11-11T03:04:17Z Fare: hahahaha
2019-11-11T03:04:22Z drmeister: Right
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2019-11-11T03:04:42Z Fare: no, it's written in a reduced python dialect written in Java
2019-11-11T03:04:51Z Fare: but it compiles Common Lisp code.
2019-11-11T03:05:23Z Fare: and I suppose you could write a backend for SBCL targetting "Skylark" (the name of that Python subset supported by Bazel)
2019-11-11T03:05:24Z drmeister: We got our phase II grant from the DOE and we are hiring programmers to work in Common Lisp - we need to speed up building quicklisp code.
2019-11-11T03:06:26Z Fare: the TODO file in asdf/ has many ideas on how to extend ASDF into a ASDF4 that would do the Right Thing™ wrt cross-compilation, buying you parallelization for free.
2019-11-11T03:07:04Z Fare: I mean, real deterministic distributed build, not mere parallelization on a multiprocessor like POIU.
2019-11-11T03:07:09Z drmeister: We are very interested in that - as in we might even be able to put money into it.
2019-11-11T03:07:25Z Fare: POIU kind of works, BTW. Not sure where the bugs are.
2019-11-11T03:07:35Z Fare: I'm willing to consult.
2019-11-11T03:08:11Z drmeister: Hmm, cracauer went to bed - I'll ask him to get in touch with you again.
2019-11-11T03:08:31Z drmeister: We've got some crazy exciting things going on here.
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2019-11-11T03:09:29Z Fare: If you just want parallelization on a multiprocessor, POIU is good.
2019-11-11T03:09:54Z drmeister: Does it work now with the latest ASDF?  I thought it was sort of locked to an older version?
2019-11-11T03:10:07Z Fare: Not sure anymore.
2019-11-11T03:10:38Z Fare: Let me just try it...
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2019-11-11T03:11:30Z drmeister: Clasp is running 3.3.1.2
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2019-11-11T03:12:19Z Fare: Is there anything wrong with 3.3.3.3 ?
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2019-11-11T03:13:47Z drmeister: I don't think so - other than that's a lot of 3's
2019-11-11T03:14:15Z drmeister: Are you suggesting that if we upgrade to 3.3.3.3 POIU will work?
2019-11-11T03:15:50Z Fare: I tried to run the poiu test, and it failed for unobvious reason. I'm not sure whether it's supposed to work at all with the 3.3 series.
2019-11-11T03:16:38Z Fare: 3.3 introduces changes to deal with multi-stage builds properly. Some of these changes might have to be reflected in POIU.
2019-11-11T03:17:07Z Fare: although the error I see looks like failure to create a directory.
2019-11-11T03:18:01Z Fare: sorry, no time to look into it.
2019-11-11T03:18:02Z drmeister: My laptop just froze - back in a few min
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2019-11-11T03:21:50Z drmeister: Hello
2019-11-11T03:22:02Z drmeister: That was unusual
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2019-11-11T03:23:17Z Fare: WTF aedp — apparently, ASDF 3.3 violates one of the previous invariants of POIU early on. What other invariants are broken, I can't say.
2019-11-11T03:23:47Z Fare: Do you want POIU-style parallelism, or Bazel-style distribution?
2019-11-11T03:23:57Z Fare: In the latter case, why not "just" use Bazel?
2019-11-11T03:24:41Z Fare: that said, if you hack ASDF into reimplementing the key parts of bazelisp as ASDF4 — yay.
2019-11-11T03:28:19Z Fare: My guess is that POIU needs to be told about the multi-phase plan structure of ASDF 3.3
2019-11-11T03:30:14Z Fare: but this is all out of my cache.
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2019-11-11T03:48:28Z drmeister: I don't know about POIU-style parallelism vs Bazel-style
2019-11-11T03:49:24Z drmeister: But integrating another program Bazel into our build system doesn't seem that attractive
2019-11-11T03:50:54Z drmeister: How does the parallelism of Bazel differ from POIU?
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2019-11-11T04:12:12Z Fare: drmeister, Bazel actually runs every "build action" in its own process, in its own sandbox, where it only has access to the declared inputs and can only create the declared outputs
2019-11-11T04:13:10Z Fare: it is deterministic (assuming actions are deterministic also), and can farm the build actions on a large number of servers
2019-11-11T04:14:14Z drmeister: Can it work with asdf systems?
2019-11-11T04:17:56Z Fare: there is or was a converter from simple asdf systems to bazel files
2019-11-11T04:18:20Z Fare: but in general, no
2019-11-11T04:18:41Z Fare: there was a collection of build files for some systems
2019-11-11T04:19:13Z Fare: that include corresponding pinned versions of the source code (that's the bazel way)
2019-11-11T04:19:40Z drmeister: It doesn't sound appropriate then.  We aren't building a standalone application - we want quicklisp systems to be integrated as needed.
2019-11-11T04:20:05Z drmeister: We have a slow compiler (because of llvm) and parallel compilation would be valuable.
2019-11-11T04:20:17Z Fare: bazel is as parallel as it gets
2019-11-11T04:20:26Z Fare: are you trying to farm out to many compilation servers?
2019-11-11T04:20:34Z Fare: or only to one large multiprocessor?
2019-11-11T04:20:55Z drmeister: All of the cores of the current processor.
2019-11-11T04:21:40Z Fare: ok, so POIU-style is what you want
2019-11-11T04:23:36Z drmeister: Yeah - I've read the documentation for POIU and we parallelize clasp's compilation already.
2019-11-11T04:23:58Z drmeister: When I load our chemistry code - it's a lot of asdf systems with dependencies.
2019-11-11T04:24:15Z drmeister: That drops back to serial, single core compilation - very painful.
2019-11-11T04:25:17Z Fare: POIU drops back to serial??
2019-11-11T04:25:25Z drmeister: No - we'
2019-11-11T04:25:41Z Fare: because POIU isn't stable enough with 3.3 ?
2019-11-11T04:25:57Z drmeister: We've never gotten POIU working.   I haven't tried to drop back to the old version of ASDF to run it.
2019-11-11T04:39:13Z Fare: ok
2019-11-11T04:39:31Z Fare: well, I know it can be made to work with a bit of effort.
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2019-11-11T05:42:12Z drmeister: This'll do
2019-11-11T05:42:13Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/jdhjjUM7/image.png
2019-11-11T05:42:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-11-11T05:42:31Z drmeister: Hi beach
2019-11-11T05:42:52Z drmeister: I'm simulating the next two years of my life with single day resolution.
2019-11-11T05:42:56Z patrixl: morning morning
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2019-11-11T05:44:09Z no-defun-allowed: If a simulation takes more than a day (or however wide your "sample" is), does it have to simulate itself taking the simulation?
2019-11-11T05:44:47Z drmeister: There's no need - it takes 0.004 seconds to simulate two years.
2019-11-11T05:46:26Z no-defun-allowed: Then I guess you're covered up to about 500 years.
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2019-11-11T05:49:49Z no-defun-allowed: Wait no.
2019-11-11T05:50:34Z no-defun-allowed: That would be 43,200,000 years or so. Slight difference.
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2019-11-11T05:54:34Z beach: That doesn't look right.  There is almost 32 million seconds in a year.
2019-11-11T05:57:08Z no-defun-allowed: Well, that is my estimation of how many years drmeister would have to simulate for the simulation to take one day.
2019-11-11T05:57:18Z no-defun-allowed: There are 86400 seconds in a day, and the simulation calculates 500 years per second.
2019-11-11T05:57:24Z beach: I see.
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2019-11-11T06:04:26Z drmeister: Except it doesn't simulate what I do at lunch and the two 15 minute bathroom breaks I get every day.
2019-11-11T06:04:38Z drmeister: Those are mine.
2019-11-11T06:05:38Z drmeister: Seriously though - I wrote a program to simulate the flow of materials through a fairly complicated tree of chemical processes.
2019-11-11T06:05:47Z drmeister: I'm just whipping up the graphviz for it.
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2019-11-11T06:21:46Z equwal: *status
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2019-11-11T06:23:04Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/8OSEkuKg/out.dot.pdf
2019-11-11T06:24:28Z no-defun-allowed: What are you cooking?
2019-11-11T06:24:45Z no-defun-allowed: Amino acids?
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2019-11-11T06:25:43Z equwal: He is cooking a lot of acid.
2019-11-11T06:25:45Z drmeister: Of a sort - yes.
2019-11-11T06:25:53Z drmeister: bis-amino acids.
2019-11-11T06:26:09Z no-defun-allowed: Nice.
2019-11-11T06:26:17Z no-defun-allowed is reminded to study for her chemistry exam tomorrow.
2019-11-11T06:26:42Z drmeister: What chemistry class are you taking?
2019-11-11T06:27:13Z no-defun-allowed: Well, one that is called "chemistry", and isn't very specific in my opinion.
2019-11-11T06:27:25Z drmeister: What are you learning?
2019-11-11T06:28:12Z no-defun-allowed: Well, last semester was energy production and optimising reactions, and this one was organic chemistry.
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2019-11-11T06:31:36Z edgar-rft is now known as ooof
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2019-11-11T06:39:35Z drmeister: We are using Common Lisp to design organic molecules.
2019-11-11T06:40:05Z drmeister: http://www.thirdlaw.tech/
2019-11-11T06:40:35Z drmeister: That's our new website.  More news soon.
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2019-11-11T06:41:01Z no-defun-allowed: I will have to check if Cando is on the authorised material list.
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2019-11-11T06:44:49Z drmeister: Authorized material list?
2019-11-11T06:45:29Z no-defun-allowed: And I will have to check if that's the name of that list either. Probably not, but I mean the list of things you can take into the exam.
2019-11-11T06:46:25Z no-defun-allowed: "Students are permitted to bring into the examination room: pens, pencils, highlighters, erasers, sharpeners, rulers and one scientific calculator." Doesn't look like it, sadly.
2019-11-11T06:47:25Z drmeister: Ah
2019-11-11T06:47:36Z beach: Exams with no documents allowed should be banned.
2019-11-11T06:48:27Z no-defun-allowed: Absolutely. My greatest fear is that I cannot remember the reaction pathways for organic compounds, which are not in the data booklet.
2019-11-11T06:50:20Z ebzzry: Does anyone have experience with ceramic.github.io?
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2019-11-11T07:21:29Z LdBeth: *no-defun-allowed*: acidic alkali
2019-11-11T07:21:58Z no-defun-allowed: The laws of quantum physics^W^Wchemistry forbid this (I think).
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2019-11-11T07:35:23Z LdBeth: there's a thing called acidic alkali chloroaluminate I remember
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2019-11-11T07:53:34Z Cymew: I tried to load woo, clack and teepeedee2 and all fail on different asdf errors. Have they all bit rotted, or should I start to question my quicklisp setup? Suggestions?
2019-11-11T07:53:56Z jasom: Cymew: are you using sbcl?
2019-11-11T07:54:05Z Cymew: Yes.
2019-11-11T07:54:13Z Cymew: 1.5.x on Fedora.
2019-11-11T07:56:17Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2019-11-11T07:56:25Z Cymew: sbcl-1.5.7 even.
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2019-11-11T08:00:03Z jasom: 1 sec, I'm updating my dists to see if it works...
2019-11-11T08:00:33Z jasom: Clack worked for me as recently as sbcl 1.4.x
2019-11-11T08:00:55Z jasom: and clack just loaded with an up-to-date quicklisp and sbcl-1.5.0
2019-11-11T08:01:16Z jasom: woo didin't load because no libev installed...
2019-11-11T08:02:03Z jasom: fixing more deps of woo...
2019-11-11T08:02:32Z jasom: woo just loaded fine
2019-11-11T08:02:44Z Cymew: It sounds like I have a distry environment in that case. Thanks for the reality check!
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2019-11-11T08:02:56Z Cymew: s/distry/dirty/
2019-11-11T08:04:17Z Cymew: I watched Fare's walkthrough video of asdf3 last night. Man is that a complex piece of machinery! I guess it just failed...
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2019-11-11T08:05:09Z jasom: Cymew: you can always remove ~/.cache/common-lisp and try again.  also (ql:update-all-dists) to make sure you're up-to-date...
2019-11-11T08:05:28Z jasom: lastly, teepeedee2 loaded correctly.
2019-11-11T08:06:53Z jasom: oh, after wiping .cache/common-lisp if it still fails, check to see if there is anything in ~/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-$VERSION/ other than your home quicklisp directory; you may have an old (or modified) version installed somewhere that asdf is picking up.  quicklisp is the source of last-resort, when doing a quickload.
2019-11-11T08:08:04Z Shinmera: projects don't get rolled out into quicklisp unless they load
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2019-11-11T08:08:29Z Cymew: jasom: Thanks. I never seem to be able to find all those cache directories. I will do some wiping.
2019-11-11T08:09:34Z Cymew: Shinmera: True, but sometimes if you also use local projects it can be a bit hard to follow the chain of dependencies to make sure you're just using the quicklisp dist.
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2019-11-11T08:10:05Z Cymew: I have a develop branch of teepeedee2 for example. Maybe I should just wipe that as well.
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2019-11-11T08:21:22Z Cymew: A better question is why there are no small and nimble web server in cl that aren't the undocumented mess that comes from fukamachi.
2019-11-11T08:21:57Z jasom: Cymew: does hunchentoot count?
2019-11-11T08:22:41Z jasom: I guess I could write a webserver.  I maintain one written in C (that I use for my own lisp web projects).
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2019-11-11T08:28:10Z Cymew: jasom: I think hunchentoot is a bit heavier and feature complete for many occations. If you just want to have an endpoint to GET data from, as more and more software these days use HTTP as a transport protocol.
2019-11-11T08:28:43Z Cymew: That being said, I have a lot of respect for Edi as a lisp hacker, so maybe I should just use hunchentoot.
2019-11-11T08:29:10Z Shinmera: If only HTTP was as simple to implement as it pretends to be
2019-11-11T08:29:11Z Cymew: God, my grammar is worse than ever...
2019-11-11T08:29:18Z jasom: hmmm; my impression was that clack is way feature-y (is that a word?) thatn hunchentoot.
2019-11-11T08:30:07Z Cymew: jasom: Could be. There's not a lot of documentation to read and compare.
2019-11-11T08:30:26Z jasom: Shinmera: HTTP/1.1 is pretty straightforward, particularly if you limit yourself to supporting the 5 or 6 most popular clients subset of the features.
2019-11-11T08:30:26Z Cymew: Shinmera: Yeah, I did notice that as I started down the path myself.
2019-11-11T08:31:23Z Cymew: It's the corner cases that kills it. Many odd corners in the HTTP RFCs out there.
2019-11-11T08:31:29Z jasom: doing it efficiently in the face of many connections gets hard quickly though.
2019-11-11T08:31:40Z Cymew: Maybe just doing the basics would be a start.
2019-11-11T08:31:49Z jasom: Cymew: reset the connection in a corner case.  It will still work with curl, firefox, safari, chromium and wget...
2019-11-11T08:32:03Z Cymew: jasom: You might be right.
2019-11-11T08:32:31Z Cymew: ...actually why am I not just using hunchentoot? :)
2019-11-11T08:34:32Z Cymew: I think it was considered a bit slow when it was first released. Maybe I should benchmark it.
2019-11-11T08:35:14Z Shinmera: It is slow, but that doesn't really matter in most cases.
2019-11-11T08:35:39Z jasom: Cymew: My recollection is that it scales poorly to 1000s of simultaneous connections, but is fine for smaller usage.
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2019-11-11T08:39:44Z flip214: Cymew: if you want a quick way to more performance, use a thread pool via https://quickref.common-lisp.net/quux-hunchentoot.html.
2019-11-11T08:40:36Z flip214: that got me to an answer time of <100µsec (if there's no external dependency like a database) and that should be good enough for a first try
2019-11-11T08:41:00Z Cymew: So the empty space in the "market" is for something that just implements GET and PUT and can do thousands of connections per second as a API gateway or data transport.
2019-11-11T08:41:11Z Cymew: flip214: Nice. I'll look into that.
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2019-11-11T08:43:54Z flip214: and getting much more performance means using userspace threads (fibers, coroutines, or whatever you want to call them), and that means rewriting the processing to use call/cc...
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2019-11-11T08:45:25Z jasom: flip214: does quux-hunchentoot allow persistent data in the thread pools?  Not opening a new DB connection for each request is a *huge* win performance wise when a DB is in the picture (and most (all?) of the clack backends I've seen don't support this even when they are thread-pooled).
2019-11-11T08:46:22Z jasom: flip214: and implementing call/cc needs to be done first :)
2019-11-11T08:47:48Z flip214: jasom: cl-cont is already there
2019-11-11T08:48:16Z jasom: flip214: does it offer a performance profile that one might expect from a call/cc or green-thread implementation?
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2019-11-11T08:48:24Z flip214: well, I've understood that the basic problem is that the database connection needs to be tied to the _object_ you're editing, not to a thread or so.
2019-11-11T08:48:43Z flip214: so that the "SELECT FOR UPDATE" is on the right database handle
2019-11-11T08:49:16Z flip214: so for thousands of simultaneous connections you might end up with thousands of simultaneous db-connections (unless handled more sanely), and that way lies madness
2019-11-11T08:49:53Z jasom: flip214: typically your database request will not exceed the dynamic scope of your http request.  This means that so long as a single thread completes the http request before handling more work, a single DB connection per thread is sufficient.
2019-11-11T08:49:55Z Cymew: Indeed.
2019-11-11T08:49:56Z flip214: jasom: no idea. I just use quux, and I've had a green-thread implementation in C under my fingertips for a few years
2019-11-11T08:50:13Z flip214: jasom: oh yes, it will! a user clicks "edit" on the wiki page
2019-11-11T08:50:28Z flip214: and that means you should lock it in the database...
2019-11-11T08:50:42Z Cymew: Databases does makes things harder.
2019-11-11T08:50:53Z Cymew: Almost all things, actually.
2019-11-11T08:51:12Z jasom: flip214: and this needs a persistent DB handle because?
2019-11-11T08:51:18Z flip214: a single PUT (for create) or DELETE might just use any connection, right
2019-11-11T08:51:42Z flip214: jasom: because doing an UPDATE on a different database handle than the one you did SELECT FOR UPDATE on is a bad idea
2019-11-11T08:52:26Z flip214: if you don't use database locks, you'll have fun considering all possible merge conflicts that can happen in your code...
2019-11-11T08:52:58Z fivo: Hey, I have some questions concerning reader syntax.
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2019-11-11T08:53:27Z fivo: Is there a way to tell SLIME how to indent multiline reader syntax?
2019-11-11T08:54:14Z fivo: Is the idiomatic way of enabling reader syntax with a macro (enable-...-syntax) as desribed in this document https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402
2019-11-11T08:54:30Z jasom: flip214: it really seems like a bad idea to have a single DB transaction require multiple http requests
2019-11-11T08:55:12Z fivo: I have some print-object specialization which I only want to kick in when the new syntax is enabled, how do I best go about that?
2019-11-11T08:55:24Z flip214: jasom: if you don't do that, you'll write a "locked-by" user and a "locked-at" timestamp field and process timeouts manually...
2019-11-11T08:55:47Z jasom: flip214: most applications I've seen are usually "first writer wins" or "merge" not "first requester locks"
2019-11-11T08:55:59Z flip214: fivo: that sounds like a bad idea. the object printing might happen to _any_ output stream, there's no connection to the input syntax reader.
2019-11-11T08:56:27Z flip214: jasom: well, it depends on the use case, of course. Just sayin' that it's complicated - sometimes.
2019-11-11T08:57:21Z jasom: flip214: it honestly never occured to me to have a transaction with a lifetime longer than a single http request, so I'll have to ruminate on this.
2019-11-11T08:57:58Z jasom: http has such a strong "stateless" bias after all...
2019-11-11T08:59:36Z jasom: fivo: your best bet might be to just add a new minor-mode for when you will be using the custom syntax.  IIRC slime doesn't have much support for custom reader macros.
2019-11-11T09:00:58Z flip214: jasom: also, http://www.pathsensitive.com/2019/07/the-best-refactoring-youve-never-heard.html with "continuation-based web servers"
2019-11-11T09:01:32Z jasom: fivo: and my current preferred method for enabling reader macros is to use named-readtables.  The enable- was preferred when named-readtables did not yet exist.
2019-11-11T09:01:51Z fivo: flip214: ok, so either have the new print-object method defined whenever the lib is loaded or not at all?
2019-11-11T09:02:26Z jasom: fivo: oh if it wasn't clear the "minor-mode" suggestion was to make a minor mode for emacs that you can use when the read-table is sufficiently foreign for slime to be confused.
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2019-11-11T09:05:08Z fivo: jasom: yes got that. I guess I look into named-readtables then.
2019-11-11T09:05:12Z jasom: flip214: 1. continuations rarely encapsulate all state.  2. IMO, Allowing arbitrary state flow across http requests from a client causes more problems than it solves.  I have tried things both ways and have preferred to push the server-side state to the database and keep the application code state-free.
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2019-11-11T09:07:02Z flip214: jasom: depends on the use-case... if serialization to the database is too costly (because of network latency) you'll have to keep it locally, for example. but yes, the less state the better.
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2019-11-11T09:08:49Z jasom: flip214: agreed.  There are times when keeping state in a particular place can make big wins in either reducing complexity or increasing performance, so it's a preference rather than a hard rule.  I have found over the years that I've moved from "Databases does make things harder" as Cymew said to "Any state outside the database needs to be justified."
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2019-11-11T09:10:31Z flip214: Is there a function that compares strings but also allows symbols, but won't crap out on CONS cells? I've got nested alists and alexandria:assoc-value; :test #'EQUAL doesn't work with :|foo|, and #'STRING= breaks at a sub-alist.
2019-11-11T09:12:42Z jasom: flip214: don't forget anything you do find will likely be wrong in the case of "nil" compared to ()
2019-11-11T09:12:48Z jasom: s/nil/NIL
2019-11-11T09:13:54Z jasom: maybe :key (lambda (x) (if (or (stringp x) (keywordp x)) (string x) x)) ?
2019-11-11T09:14:23Z flip214: jasom: well, NIL is not a keyword, and nobody should write try to find a :|nil| key ;)
2019-11-11T09:14:51Z flip214: jasom: yeah, of course I can provide a lambda. I didn't know whether one of the existing comparison functions already works that way.
2019-11-11T09:14:57Z jasom: flip214: perhaps I'm confused; do you want people to be able to match :|foo| with "foo" because thats how I read it...
2019-11-11T09:15:26Z loke: Or 'NIL with "NIL
2019-11-11T09:15:32Z loke: I mean "NIL
2019-11-11T09:15:35Z loke: argh
2019-11-11T09:15:36Z loke: "NIL"
2019-11-11T09:15:51Z loke: (I'm soooo bloody used to Paderit that I never type closing quotes/parens)
2019-11-11T09:16:07Z jasom: first-world IDE problems...
2019-11-11T09:16:13Z flip214: jasom: after parsing a JSON struct I have some nested structure, and want to find data in there. I'd like to use keywords for matching, because if the structure is returned by other code it's just a pointer comparison.
2019-11-11T09:16:44Z flip214: ie. (alexandria:assoc-value tree :|foo|) instead of "foo"
2019-11-11T09:16:49Z jasom: ah
2019-11-11T09:17:18Z jasom: yeah, I think writing your own test is likely the best.
2019-11-11T09:17:47Z flip214: thanks!
2019-11-11T09:17:53Z jasom: b/c you want :|foo| to match :|foo| efficiently, but also still be able to match "foo", but don't care about the inverse of "foo" matching :|foo|
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2019-11-11T09:20:15Z jasom: perhaps (typecase y (symbol (eql x y)) (string (string= (string x) y)) (t nil))
2019-11-11T09:21:00Z loke: flip214: If the things you are matching against are strings, why don't you just stringify the argument?
2019-11-11T09:21:42Z jasom: loke: the things he is matching against might be strings or might be keywords; flip214 wants an efficient compare if they are keywords.
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2019-11-11T09:23:27Z loke: jasom: should be a trivial things to write? :-)
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2019-11-11T10:12:37Z remexre: with SBCL, how do I set floating-point flags back to where C might expect them to be? I've got some foreign code that I think is trapping on a divide by zero, in this case.
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2019-11-11T10:14:41Z remexre: nvm, foudn it
2019-11-11T10:15:01Z remexre: you'd think this'd be in the manual
2019-11-11T10:16:11Z no-defun-allowed: (sb-int:set-floating-point-modes :traps nil) looks like a good start.
2019-11-11T10:16:49Z remexre: yeah, that's what I'm trying (after wrapping it in a macro so it's a with-* thing)
2019-11-11T10:16:50Z no-defun-allowed: Or maybe (sb-int:with-float-traps-masked (:overflow :invalid :divide-by-zero) ...) if you just want that in a small part of your code.
2019-11-11T10:17:09Z remexre: oh, didn't see that
2019-11-11T10:17:43Z remexre: Yeah, I'll do that; it's only for foreign calls, and the relevant ones already have a wrapper macro for error handling anyway
2019-11-11T10:18:35Z leo_song: how to define type specifier alias? For example, define a "u32" to make (make-array 5 :element-type 'u32) == (make-array 5 :element-type '(unsigned-int 32))
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2019-11-11T10:18:50Z no-defun-allowed: clhs deftype
2019-11-11T10:18:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_deftp.htm
2019-11-11T10:19:01Z no-defun-allowed: (deftype u32 () '(unsigned-byte 32))
2019-11-11T10:19:52Z leo_song: That works!
2019-11-11T10:23:19Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell remexre look up float-features with-float-traps-masked
2019-11-11T10:23:19Z Colleen: remexre: Macro-function float-features:with-float-traps-masked https://shinmera.github.io/float-features#MACRO-FUNCTION%20FLOAT-FEATURES%3AWITH-FLOAT-TRAPS-MASKED
2019-11-11T10:23:26Z Shinmera: If you want a portable version.
2019-11-11T10:23:46Z remexre: oh, neat; thanks!
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2019-11-11T11:50:27Z pfdietz32: It's better if you can arrange all the strings to be converted to keywords first.   This is what I do for json (at least, for the names to left of the colons).
2019-11-11T11:52:16Z pfdietz32: Somewhat surprisingly, just calling INTERN was not the fastest way to do that.
2019-11-11T11:53:42Z jackdaniel: and what was the fastest way?
2019-11-11T11:53:46Z jackdaniel: pfdietz32: ^
2019-11-11T11:54:14Z pjb: make-symbol can be faster, but it's less useful.
2019-11-11T11:54:39Z pfdietz32: In the json some of those strings appear a lot.   Use a string-case macro to handle those, and call INTERN if nothing matched.
2019-11-11T11:55:07Z jackdaniel: ah, that's what you mean
2019-11-11T11:55:09Z jackdaniel: thank you
2019-11-11T11:55:14Z pfdietz32: (string-case s (("foo") :foo) (("bar") :bar) … (t (intern (string-upcase s) :keyword)))
2019-11-11T11:55:30Z pfdietz32: (this was case insensitive)
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2019-11-11T11:56:04Z pfdietz32: (that is not quite right)
2019-11-11T11:56:34Z pfdietz32: string-case was surprisingly fast, and with jump tables being added to SBCL's case should get even faster.
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2019-11-11T11:56:41Z jackdaniel: yes, I have a gist of it though, thanks again. I think I can use this trick for something not related to json
2019-11-11T11:57:37Z pfdietz32: https://github.com/pkhuong/string-case
2019-11-11T11:57:57Z jackdaniel: I think that's the same thing as listed by ql:system-apropos
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2019-11-11T12:00:28Z pjb: string-case can be optimized. Selecting the right branch is easy: it only has to check the first character (in the case of the example).
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2019-11-11T12:10:16Z pfdietz32: It ultimately has to check them all, at least to distinguish one case from the fall through.
2019-11-11T12:10:50Z shka_: i don't think so
2019-11-11T12:11:44Z pfdietz32: (string-case "fox"  (("foo") :a) (t :b)) ==> :b
2019-11-11T12:12:06Z pfdietz32: (glares at emojification)
2019-11-11T12:12:27Z shka_: one can instead generate something like qp trie for every case
2019-11-11T12:12:51Z shka_: and that would work fine, i think
2019-11-11T12:14:02Z shka_: should be fairly simple as well
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2019-11-11T12:30:11Z pjb: pfdietz32: read again what I wrote!  ultimately, it has to check only ONE!
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2019-11-11T12:44:40Z pfdietz32: In the case where it will not take the default branch, it has to confirm all the characters match.   You are right if it's going to fall through with the first character not matching any of the cases.
2019-11-11T12:45:12Z pfdietz32: BTW, string-case finds it faster to match more than one character, even there.
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2019-11-11T12:46:28Z shka_: you can match multiple characters at once with bit manipulation
2019-11-11T12:46:31Z pfdietz32: It generates checks like (= (logior (logxor (char-code (schar s 0)) (char-code #\f)) …) 0) for chunks of up to 4 (?) characters.
2019-11-11T12:46:48Z shka_: makes sense
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2019-11-11T13:05:35Z Bike: pfdietz32: sbcl's case is using jump tables now?
2019-11-11T13:06:05Z pfdietz32: Yes, a bunch of commits over the last week.  It should show up in release at the end of the month.
2019-11-11T13:07:14Z Bike: neat.
2019-11-11T13:08:11Z pfdietz32: These will work on the common cases of fixnums, characters, and symbols.   For cases returning constants, it will get optimized to vector accesses.
2019-11-11T13:11:25Z Bike: symbols all get a hash, i see
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2019-11-11T13:16:35Z pfdietz32: (looks at history) last two weeks
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2019-11-11T13:17:46Z Bike: yeah, i was trawling through
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2019-11-11T13:32:46Z Bike: is CL-LLVM still like, usable? it looks like it hasn't got any commits since 2017, and llvm has changed in that time
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2019-11-11T13:54:42Z cracauer: hello
2019-11-11T13:55:09Z cracauer: fare/tunes, are you here?
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2019-11-11T13:56:43Z Cymew: cracauer: I've not seen him around lately.
2019-11-11T13:58:10Z Shinmera: He was here earlier.
2019-11-11T13:58:38Z luis: cracauer: fare was Last seen  : Nov 11 13:17:03 2019 (41m 9s ago)
2019-11-11T14:00:11Z flip214: ALEXANDRIA:IF-LET says "sequentially binds", but the first bound variable is not available for the second form. Shouldn't there be an IF-LET* too?
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2019-11-11T14:01:57Z Bike: looks like it says "All initial-forms are executed sequentially in the specified order. Then all the variables are bound to the corresponding values." which is a bit different from "sequentially binds"
2019-11-11T14:02:07Z Bike: but there's also a when-let*, so i i guess if-let* could be ok too
2019-11-11T14:03:05Z cracauer: My parallel pipe dream is that top-level s-expressions that are defuns and have no side-effects are compile or load time are all done in fork()ed processes.
2019-11-11T14:03:08Z flip214: Bike: yeah, sorry, I may have misquoted.
2019-11-11T14:04:09Z Bike: looks like when-let* may screw up declarations tho
2019-11-11T14:04:17Z beach: cracauer: Why would you want to do that?
2019-11-11T14:04:29Z Bike: it's harder because when-let* is supposed to actually stop if anything is false
2019-11-11T14:04:32Z phoe: https://nl.movim.eu/?blog/phoe%40movim.eu/0c5eae17-b689-432d-a85b-8df67b540bed
2019-11-11T14:04:36Z phoe: flip214: ^
2019-11-11T14:04:45Z cracauer: For programs that are highly parallel at runtime you typically have lots of side-effect functions. Such a source code should also be suitable for parallel compilation of those defuns.
2019-11-11T14:04:58Z Bike: that might be the reason, really, with a bunch of ifs do they all go to the same else clause or what
2019-11-11T14:05:08Z beach: cracauer: You could do that with threads and first-class global environments.
2019-11-11T14:05:27Z Bike: oh. that's what phoe's page says. cool
2019-11-11T14:05:28Z Bike: i am Smart
2019-11-11T14:05:30Z beach: cracauer: Then, the compilation environment would be created for each compilation.
2019-11-11T14:05:34Z cracauer: Yes.  Fork isn't much more overhead, though.
2019-11-11T14:05:45Z phoe: Bike: I just recalled this question being asked on #lisp before
2019-11-11T14:05:54Z phoe: and that I noted this down earlier
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2019-11-11T14:06:51Z flip214: phoe: yeah, I wouldn't need the (potentially) bound variables in the ELSE part... because I don't have any ;)   I just switched to WHEN-LET*.
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2019-11-11T14:07:24Z flip214: thanks!
2019-11-11T14:07:45Z phoe: flip214: yes, you wouldn't need them, but the semantics would need them - IF-LET* would require a well-defined false branch
2019-11-11T14:07:58Z phoe: and we can't really well-define them in this case due to unbound variables
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2019-11-11T14:08:26Z flip214: well, so just define it to have _none_ of the variables available
2019-11-11T14:08:30Z Bike: could you define if-let* so that in the else branch- yeah that.
2019-11-11T14:08:46Z Bike: might be more inconvenient to write the macro, tho.
2019-11-11T14:08:59Z luis: cracauer: the 70s called, they say fork() is a bad abstraction. ;-) https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/a-fork-in-the-road/
2019-11-11T14:09:36Z flip214: Bike: well, just have a gensym bound to a (lambda () ,else) before doing anything with variables
2019-11-11T14:10:14Z Bike: i guess that works. i was thinking in terms of tagbodies
2019-11-11T14:10:51Z cracauer: Another crazy parallel compilation thing is to compile defuns without (much) inlining at first and fire up an inlined version's compilation in the background at the same time.  Depending on what loading the first one does to the environment you can then either abandon the background compile, or let it go through and re-load the function. Speculative computing.
2019-11-11T14:12:01Z cracauer: fork(2) is life.  Nothing can convince me otherwise :-)
2019-11-11T14:12:38Z flip214: cracauer: try clone(2), that has even more interesting options available
2019-11-11T14:12:45Z cracauer: It is just so useful to safely fire up speculative computing and pick up the work, or not, based on outcome.
2019-11-11T14:12:46Z Bike: microsoft paper quoting the BeBook. how about that
2019-11-11T14:12:57Z Bike: er, citing
2019-11-11T14:13:13Z cracauer: I use clone(2).  With all the options that turn it into a fork(2) equivalent.
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2019-11-11T14:14:21Z cracauer: I think I would like to have fasl files where changes to the environment on load have hooks.
2019-11-11T14:15:05Z cracauer: That way I could determine whether loading the same file in an optimized version later is safe or not.
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2019-11-11T14:16:01Z luis: cracauer: the other day I read about how Google compiles Lisp code on their compile farm... It's... insane. :)
2019-11-11T14:16:30Z flip214: cracauer: please help to parallelize ASDF first... and QL second, before talking about form-level concurrency ;/
2019-11-11T14:17:02Z cracauer: luis: I did not like Lisp in blaze/basel much.
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2019-11-11T14:17:59Z luis: flip214: would you be willing to write header-like files (that declare functions, types, classes, defines macros) etc as a way to parallelize system compilation?
2019-11-11T14:18:10Z cracauer: Yes. -ish
2019-11-11T14:18:16Z cracauer: But you don't need to.
2019-11-11T14:18:27Z flip214: luis: is that needed? my understanding is that lots of things could be compiled in parallel already.
2019-11-11T14:18:33Z cracauer: Before blaze/bazel QPX was compiled by loading all files into the interpreter.
2019-11-11T14:18:46Z cracauer: Then fork the actual compilation per file.
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2019-11-11T14:19:10Z cracauer: Some forms of environment modifications had to be managed by hang, though.
2019-11-11T14:19:28Z luis: I'm not interested in solutions that require fork() :(
2019-11-11T14:19:37Z cracauer: So, the interpreter loads fast enough that you can load all the inline/macros right along with defuns.
2019-11-11T14:19:57Z flip214: luis: and furthermore, recent SBCL could export the (derived) types of functions after a single sequential compilation
2019-11-11T14:20:07Z cracauer: Keep in mind that many side-effect defuns might be used by compile-time computing.
2019-11-11T14:20:42Z luis: cracauer: sure. Does would need to be in the header file as well.
2019-11-11T14:20:46Z luis: s/Does/Those
2019-11-11T14:21:03Z cracauer: So if you were to do header-like files you don't only have to move inlined things in and out, but you also need a repository of defuns used at compile time.
2019-11-11T14:21:10Z luis: In CFFI's case for instance, the whole thing would need to be available at compile time, pretty much.
2019-11-11T14:22:08Z cracauer: Right, but that would work in the scheme of loading interpreted first, then do compilation in the background in parallel.
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2019-11-11T14:22:31Z luis: cracauer: are you going to sbcl20?
2019-11-11T14:23:14Z cracauer: So to speak, you use the entire Lisp file as "header file" in that you load everything interpreted, and while you have the defuns in there the defuns are not intended to be used that way and will be "fixed up" by compilation later.
2019-11-11T14:23:30Z cracauer: I will go to Vienna. Looking forward to seeing everybody.
2019-11-11T14:23:53Z cracauer: There's also a Nighwish show the Wednesday afterwards in case anybody is interested in an outing.
2019-11-11T14:24:39Z luis: Symphonic metal. Hmm. Not the first genre that comes to mind when thinking of Vienna. :-)
2019-11-11T14:24:55Z cracauer: \m/
2019-11-11T14:25:12Z trittweiler: luis: are you going too?
2019-11-11T14:25:12Z cracauer: Symphonic is symphonic, no? :-)
2019-11-11T14:25:27Z luis: trittweiler: yes!
2019-11-11T14:25:47Z trittweiler: Happy to hear. Me too
2019-11-11T14:25:51Z cracauer: cool
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2019-11-11T14:26:12Z Shinmera: I'm very sad I won't be able to make it
2019-11-11T14:27:13Z cracauer: I still think that speculative computing is a way to parallel compile improvements. Do something quick, see if it has side effects, if not you are free to do a long compilation in the background and reload.
2019-11-11T14:27:39Z cracauer: Of course that only works good if you have more CPUs than current parallelism.
2019-11-11T14:27:59Z cracauer: Which is almost always the case in quicklisp compilation right now.
2019-11-11T14:28:30Z cracauer: And even Clasp's core doesn't nearly fill out a 32-core machine, not to mention 48 cores which you can have for < $200 now.
2019-11-11T14:28:49Z cracauer: (plus RAM)
2019-11-11T14:29:30Z luis: I'm actually more interested in being able to do incremental compilation (i.e., reuse as many fasls as possible) rather than compiling in parallel. But, of course, the two problems are related.
2019-11-11T14:30:17Z luis: (Particularly when it comes to dependencies across systems.)
2019-11-11T14:30:19Z cracauer: luis: that doesn't solve out Clasp problems, when we rebuild the base compiler and recompile everything because we don't know what is actually required.
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2019-11-11T14:30:50Z cracauer: However, again, it would help if fasls would be marked for their load-time side effects.
2019-11-11T14:31:16Z cracauer: I guess that can be proven "harmless" fasls or sub-fasls.
2019-11-11T14:32:20Z cracauer: A pure code-only fasl is much more re-usable in a safe manner.
2019-11-11T14:32:25Z pjb: or fast fasl.
2019-11-11T14:33:52Z Bike: i feel like you really have to fight the language semantics here
2019-11-11T14:34:05Z Bike: something as simple as a constant with a make-load-form means side effects
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2019-11-11T14:42:19Z pfdietz: Any fasl that refers to a symbol that might not already exist has load time side effects.
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2019-11-11T14:42:38Z cracauer: Yes, but the trick is that I don't have to magically figure that out. With speculative computing I get the yes/no on side effects when loading the result of the foreground quick compilation.  If it was "clean", I will load the result of the background compilation later. If not, I abandon the background compilation and compile "good enough" in the foreground.
2019-11-11T14:43:49Z flip214: I don't think you can _know_ whether it was clean....   how about #+feature and this being only available after loading a library?
2019-11-11T14:44:52Z cracauer: But wouldn't that have sequential semantics anyway?
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2019-11-11T14:45:26Z cracauer: The dependency graph would always place users of that #+feature sequentially after whatever is providing it.
2019-11-11T14:46:46Z pfdietz: I want a build system with this property:  I can write rules so that if I've loaded system FOO, and also system BAR, then at that point I want to load some system FOO+BAR.   And FOO and BAR can be loaded in either order.
2019-11-11T14:46:52Z cracauer: pfdietz: I guess you would have to be clean wrt load time order. All referenced symbols must exist for the background compilation's result to be picked up.
2019-11-11T14:47:22Z cracauer: I guess that would limit parallelism for quicklisp quite severely.
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2019-11-11T15:09:25Z beach: Is there a publication that is mainly about PCL (as in Portable Common Loops)?
2019-11-11T15:09:34Z beach: ... with emphasis on "mainly".
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2019-11-11T15:14:17Z Bike: i tried looking at the CMU archived PCL and the text file in it that I think is dated latest advertises "Even less documentation than ever before"
2019-11-11T15:14:36Z beach: Hmm, OK.  Thanks.
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2019-11-11T15:15:33Z Bike: also that the runtime architecture and MOP have been rewritten for the release, and that there are no more versions because they're working on AMOP
2019-11-11T15:15:40Z Bike: or well, the metaobject protocol, i guess
2019-11-11T15:15:54Z beach: I see.
2019-11-11T15:16:39Z Bike: kind of interesting seeing the changelogs though. "MAJOR CHANGES IN THIS RELEASE: [...] it is possible to forward reference classes in a defclass form"
2019-11-11T15:17:12Z beach: OK, but I was interested in finding a bibliographic reference to include in my new paper.
2019-11-11T15:17:53Z Bike: right, i know. i thought this might have pointers to an actual publication but this is more like, well, an experimental software release
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2019-11-11T15:19:50Z Bike: in google scholar... here's a 1990 article that mentions PCL but has no citation for it. that would have been contemporaneous with the text file
2019-11-11T15:20:00Z Cymew: It would be interesting if someone published an explanation of how Common Loops and New Flavors and CLOS relate to each other.
2019-11-11T15:20:14Z Cymew: I have never managed to figure that out.
2019-11-11T15:20:29Z beach: Cymew: The Wikipedia page on CommonLoops mentions that.
2019-11-11T15:20:48Z Bike: oh yeah, there's "Efficient Method Dispatch in PCL"
2019-11-11T15:20:58Z Bike: i think you already cited that one
2019-11-11T15:21:13Z Cymew: beach: Thanks. I must have missed that.
2019-11-11T15:21:51Z beach: Bike: That article, and the AMOP book both have some PCL material in them.
2019-11-11T15:22:06Z beach: Bike: But I was looking at a publication that essentially is entirely about PCL.
2019-11-11T15:22:12Z beach: I don't think one exists.
2019-11-11T15:22:19Z _death: I'm sure there's useful information somewhere here: http://www.oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/kt038nf156/entire_text/ :)
2019-11-11T15:22:20Z Bike: i'm pessimistic.
2019-11-11T15:22:46Z Bike: "102719397 Object Oriented programming and LOOPS, course lectures 3/3 1985" "102719411 CommonLoops, Merging Lisp and Object-Oriented Programming 1986"
2019-11-11T15:22:58Z Bike: "The LOOPS Manual", huh
2019-11-11T15:23:03Z Bike: maybe that's something else though
2019-11-11T15:23:18Z Bike: or portable common loops is a portable reimplementation of this loops thing. i don't know
2019-11-11T15:23:45Z beach: I don't think so no.
2019-11-11T15:23:47Z Cymew: Reading wikipedia it sounds like Loops was an Interlisp thing.
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2019-11-11T15:24:17Z Cymew: And then Common Loops was that thing implemented for CL, and that implementation was called PCL.
2019-11-11T15:24:25Z Cymew: Is that correct?
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2019-11-11T15:27:24Z beach: Not quite "that thing", more like "a similar thing".  They differ in semantics.
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2019-11-11T15:28:12Z Cymew: They do? Ah, that makes me curious about those differences.
2019-11-11T15:29:08Z _death: the merging paper has a section "CommonLoops and other Systems"
2019-11-11T15:29:38Z beach: Cymew: See page 81 of the AMOP book for instance.
2019-11-11T15:29:46Z beach: ... about the class precedence list.
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2019-11-11T15:31:03Z Cymew: I really need to read that book one of these days. I have started so many times...
2019-11-11T15:31:37Z beach: It took me three times to get through it.
2019-11-11T15:31:56Z beach: The first time, I had no clue what I was reading.
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2019-11-11T15:32:00Z Cymew: I seem to remember the cmucl source tree contained a directory called pcl, and that was where you found the clos sources.
2019-11-11T15:32:40Z Cymew: beach: I way too often end up re-reading a paper from rpg instead to refresh my memory of what it's all about.
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2019-11-11T15:33:37Z beach: There are two `rpg's.  I assume you mean Gabriel?
2019-11-11T15:34:55Z Cymew: Yeah.
2019-11-11T15:35:25Z Bike: sbcl also has a pcl directory. it was originally based on pcl but it's changed quite a bit, and is not remotely portable
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2019-11-11T15:37:36Z Cymew: Look at that. I had missed that sbcl also had a "pcl" clos.
2019-11-11T15:37:56Z Cymew: Kind of makes sense, considering its history.
2019-11-11T15:38:03Z Cymew: I have not used cmucl in ages.
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2019-11-11T15:41:13Z jjkola: hi
2019-11-11T15:41:33Z beach: Hello jjkola.
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2019-11-11T15:54:56Z pfdietz: Needs a new word for the "P"
2019-11-11T15:55:39Z _death: post
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2019-11-11T16:37:14Z edgar-rft often works for medicine and knows PCL as "Psychopath Check-List"
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2019-11-11T19:09:21Z pfdietz: I had an annoyance with the pcl in sbcl recently.  If you mind *macroexpand-hook*, it affects the on-the-fly code generation in the pcl implementation, and if the function you bound uses generic functions, a vicious metacircularity could crash the whole thing.
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2019-11-11T19:12:11Z Bike: does it do code generation like that other than for make/allocate instance?
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2019-11-11T19:33:18Z pfdietz: It was for a method.
2019-11-11T19:33:28Z pfdietz: (if I recall correctly)
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2019-11-11T19:35:22Z pfdietz: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1826607
2019-11-11T19:37:55Z Bike: oh, huh...
2019-11-11T19:38:35Z Bike: i didn't know pcl invoked the compiler there.
2019-11-11T19:42:14Z Bike: wonder if there's anything besides macroexpand hook that would be implicated there... that isn't implementation specific, anyway, i'm sure there's a trillion variables that could affect it
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2019-11-11T21:21:15Z montxero: Is there a cannonical system for working with sqlite from common lisp?
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2019-11-11T21:25:55Z sjl: I've used https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-sqlite/ in the passt
2019-11-11T21:26:14Z sjl: Seemed to work well for my (admittedly small) needs
2019-11-11T21:26:29Z montxero: sjl: I'm just browsing through the documentation now
2019-11-11T21:28:07Z montxero: sjl: my needs are tiny as well.  I thought there might be a way to do everything on the lisp side in a lispy dsl, which then compiles to sqlite strings at the very end
2019-11-11T21:28:35Z sjl: by "sqlite strings" you mean the actual SQL query strings?
2019-11-11T21:28:53Z montxero: yeah
2019-11-11T21:29:26Z sjl: There's probably a library for turning sexps into SQL strings, but I personally prefer just writing the SQL myself.
2019-11-11T21:30:03Z sjl: something like http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/s-sql.html
2019-11-11T21:30:03Z montxero: cool
2019-11-11T21:30:40Z sjl: (unsure if that thing only works with postmodern or is a separate component that you could use independently)
2019-11-11T21:30:48Z sjl: I just write the SQL as strings myself.
2019-11-11T21:31:47Z montxero: My needs are small enough that I'll just write the strings.
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2019-11-11T21:38:11Z montxero: sjl: thank you.  For your work, tutorials, and blog.  They have been invaluable to me over the years.  First it was bad wolf and vim related stuff in 2016, then I found your blog last year when I started Common lisp.  When I started whith mercurial on bitbucket, your work turned up again: the tutorial post you made on the subject was illuminating.  Your repos, help me understand how to structure my Common Lisp Code.  Thank you, you're a
2019-11-11T21:38:11Z montxero: dead set legend.
2019-11-11T21:38:34Z sjl: Glad to be helpful!
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2019-11-11T21:52:50Z phoe: montxero: this is correct
2019-11-11T21:52:55Z phoe: (incf sjl)
2019-11-11T21:53:23Z phoe: sjl: montxero: regarding SQL, I find CL-YESQL to be very useful for my own use cases
2019-11-11T21:53:58Z phoe: these allow me to write individual queries as pure SQL and then have them automatically wrapped as Lisp functions with keyword arguments and annotated return types
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2019-11-11T22:57:25Z montxero: phoe: This looks promising!
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2019-11-11T23:52:03Z Bike: anyone know if cl-llvm still works?
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2019-11-11T23:53:22Z LdBeth: Not with the latest LLVM
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2019-11-12T00:01:11Z Bike: figures. thank.s
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2019-11-12T01:33:11Z z3t0: hey all, is there a way to specify padding for strings when using format?
2019-11-12T01:33:57Z pjb: Yes.
2019-11-12T01:34:17Z pjb: (format nil ">~10A<" "Hello") #| --> ">Hello     <" |#
2019-11-12T01:34:49Z z3t0: Great thank you!
2019-11-12T01:34:56Z z3t0: I tried searching but only found information on numbers
2019-11-12T01:35:23Z pjb: Some implementations accept ~D to left pad strings, but it's not standard. To pad on the left, you can write (let ((s "Hello")) (format nil "~VA~A" (- 10 (length s)) "" s)) #| --> "     Hello" |#
2019-11-12T01:36:12Z pjb: If you have to do a lot of padding of different kind, with different padding characters, etc, you can write your own formatter function and call it with ~/
2019-11-12T01:36:14Z z3t0: Looking at the hyperspec, which operator is that going tobe?
2019-11-12T01:36:21Z z3t0: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/22_c.htm
2019-11-12T01:36:58Z pjb: See for example, http://paste.lisp.org/display/163695
2019-11-12T01:37:35Z pjb: ~A -> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/22_cda.htm
2019-11-12T01:38:06Z pjb: Oh, you can specify the padchar:  (format nil ">~10,,,'*A<" "Hello") #| --> ">Hello*****<" |#
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2019-11-12T01:38:31Z pjb: Oh, and @ do left padding!
2019-11-12T01:38:45Z pjb: (format nil ">~10,,,'*@A<" "Hello") #| --> ">*****Hello<" |#
2019-11-12T01:38:54Z pjb: So ~A does already all we need.
2019-11-12T01:39:40Z pjb: Always check the CLHS!
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2019-11-12T01:45:02Z equwal: Your editor should have a function to lookup format specs
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2019-11-12T01:45:13Z equwal: C-c C-d ~ on sl(y/imed)
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2019-11-12T05:03:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-11-12T05:04:29Z equwal: good morning beach.
2019-11-12T05:04:54Z equwal: What do you think about using CL for scripting?
2019-11-12T05:05:18Z LdBeth: Hello beach
2019-11-12T05:05:37Z equwal: It seems to be lacking in basic utilities for that...although roswell definitely is a good start.
2019-11-12T05:06:50Z beach: I learned that there are two meanings for "scripting".  1. An extension language for an application written in a static language.  2. A language for manipulating simple text files from the shell.
2019-11-12T05:07:13Z equwal: I was thinking of the second one
2019-11-12T05:07:24Z LdBeth: For the later one, REXX is a great language for that
2019-11-12T05:07:25Z equwal: (like bash)
2019-11-12T05:07:50Z equwal: for the other one I would also avoid CL and probably use fennel with lua.
2019-11-12T05:08:24Z LdBeth: I find even scheme shell not easy to write
2019-11-12T05:08:31Z beach: For the first one, it should be avoided entirely, and the application should be written in Common Lisp to begin with.
2019-11-12T05:10:00Z LdBeth: And use safe eval technique for user extensibility
2019-11-12T05:11:28Z LdBeth: It’s usually hard if only mocking the practice of applications written in other languages
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2019-11-12T05:37:15Z beach: LdBeth: Not sure what you mean.
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2019-11-12T05:41:51Z beach: What I mean is this: Often the choice is made to write the application in a language with a compiler that "is known to produce fast code".  Typically, this means C++.
2019-11-12T05:42:04Z beach: Then, already, the application is going to be slow because of the steps you have to take to compensate for the manual memory management.
2019-11-12T05:42:10Z beach: But then, because a static language is used, a dynamic language is chosen for the extensions.
2019-11-12T05:42:14Z beach: Again, typically, an implementation in the form of an interpreter is chosen for the extension language.
2019-11-12T05:42:17Z beach: So now you have a combination of 1. A slow application.  2. An even slower extension-language evaluator.  3. A debugging nightmare because of the combination.
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2019-11-12T05:43:50Z beach: But I am preaching to the choir here.
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2019-11-12T06:02:21Z Josh_2: beach: What do you mean that C++ applications end up slow because of memory management?
2019-11-12T06:04:42Z no-defun-allowed: Guessing object lifetimes is very very hard, so the "solution" is to copy everything when you're not sure, from what I've heard about C++.
2019-11-12T06:04:42Z LdBeth: I believe some statistics has shown that most of the time GC outperforms manual men management
2019-11-12T06:05:29Z no-defun-allowed: And malloc/free is much slower than a compacting garbage collector when collection doesn't have to be done.
2019-11-12T06:05:39Z beach: Josh_2: I mean, in order to make the application modular, either objects are copied a lot, or else some smart pointers or reference counting is used.  All these techniques are orders of magnitude slower than what Common Lisp does.
2019-11-12T06:06:01Z Josh_2: Oh right
2019-11-12T06:06:03Z Josh_2: neat :D
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2019-11-12T06:09:44Z aeth: you can also fragment the heap if you don't use garbage collection
2019-11-12T06:10:09Z LdBeth: beach: I mean in some case a script language is used as an abstraction to prevent user from messing with the internals of the application while retaining the abilities to extend the functionality
2019-11-12T06:10:47Z aeth: Josh_2: let's say you have [AAAAABBBCCCCC...] and you want to free BBB and allocate DDDDD... now you have [AAAAA___CCCCCDDDDD...] and it will only get worse over time unless you're really careful
2019-11-12T06:11:17Z beach: aeth: Fragmentation was an invention by the theoreticians in the 1960s and the theory has been perpetuated over the years, despite the fact that Paul Wilson showed that it is not a problem in practice.  And that was some 20 years ago now.
2019-11-12T06:11:21Z LdBeth: It’s like DSL
2019-11-12T06:11:44Z beach: LdBeth: I see, so how do they prevent the use of GDB?
2019-11-12T06:11:58Z aeth: beach: well i was about to say that the other unless is unless you use a GC that handles it for you
2019-11-12T06:12:38Z beach: aeth: Everybody should read the excellent paper by Wilson et all.  It shows that only artificial applications create fragmentation.  Not real ones.
2019-11-12T06:12:52Z Josh_2: What paper is that?
2019-11-12T06:13:08Z beach: The "allocator survey".  Let me find it for you...
2019-11-12T06:13:12Z aeth: LdBeth: embedded scripting languages afaik have three uses: (1) friendlier language, (2) interpreted or fast compiling vs. really, really slow compiling so it's an easier to iterate in language, and (3) sandboxing
2019-11-12T06:13:18Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: Well, you could just put objects of similar sizes in the same pages to avoid some fragmentation. Parallel to that, and which I think is more important, is that allocation is bumping a pointer.
2019-11-12T06:13:23Z aeth: beach: that's news to me
2019-11-12T06:13:47Z beach: aeth: Yes, and sadly to many others too.
2019-11-12T06:14:13Z beach: Dynamic Storage Allocation: A Survey and Critical Review.  There are PDFs available everywhere.
2019-11-12T06:15:52Z beach: Section 2.3 What Fragmentation Really Is, and Why the Traditional Approach is Unsound.
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2019-11-12T06:21:52Z aeth: beach: I do agree with you on your earlier point on scripting languages, though. I think 100% of a program in a fast language can be faster than 60% in a very fast language and 40% in a (possibly very) slow language
2019-11-12T06:22:06Z aeth: s/fast language/fast language implementation/
2019-11-12T06:22:07Z beach: Fragmentation has been shown to occur for all memory-allocation techniques, but the research then uses a model of program behavior that is a lousy approximation of reality, namely some statistical model such as random allocation/deallocation or first-order Markov model.
2019-11-12T06:22:43Z beach: aeth: Exactly.
2019-11-12T06:23:13Z aeth: Especially since there's almost always some penalty to FFIing
2019-11-12T06:24:25Z aeth: This really just leaves afaik (1) "more approachable", (2) cuts down on compilation waiting (but some CLs do this by having an interpreter and a compiler), and (3) sandboxing
2019-11-12T06:25:18Z aeth: I don't think #2 really applies to CL that much, especially given the typical development pattern. You'd have to have some situation where you'd need to constantly recompile ironclad to really suffer in compilation times
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2019-11-12T06:38:55Z beach: aeth: I am not sure what your itemized list represents.  Advantages to using a static language?  Objections to using Common Lisp?  Something else?
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2019-11-12T06:49:03Z aeth: beach: Justifications for using a scripting language in a large application
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2019-11-12T06:50:35Z beach: Oh!
2019-11-12T06:51:24Z beach: Again, for sandboxing, how do they prevent the user from executing the application from GDB and altering any memory location that way?
2019-11-12T06:52:16Z aeth: beach: I believe sandboxing is used when you have an application that downloads scripts over the Internet, such as games or the web
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2019-11-12T06:52:41Z beach: I see.
2019-11-12T06:52:50Z aeth: So the user isn't the author of the script
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2019-11-12T06:53:42Z beach: With first-class global environments, it would be easy to do in Common Lisp as well, and in fact, that is one important use for them.
2019-11-12T06:53:45Z aeth: Ideally you'd do something like embed a DSL that has no access to file operations unless whitelisted or through a strict API
2019-11-12T06:54:00Z aeth: (e.g. for games, loading a save might still be valid)
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2019-11-12T06:59:24Z beach: Ideally, the Common Lisp implementation used for the application would already have native first-class global environments, but even if it doesn't it is no harder (probably easier) to provide a subset of Common Lisp accessible for extensions, than it is to include an entire compiler or interpreter for a dynamic scripting language into an application written in a static language.
2019-11-12T07:00:12Z beach: I mean, SBCL does not have first-class global environments, but I can run SICL code inside SBCL in a first-class global environment that does not have access to the SBCL code itself.
2019-11-12T07:02:10Z beach: It would be a bit twisted to use my technique for scripting an application for the purpose of sandboxing, but it is possible.
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2019-11-12T07:07:36Z aeth: interesting
2019-11-12T07:08:42Z aeth: Oh, I brought up games and the web as examples earlier, but it seems like practically everything has a package manager these days
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2019-11-12T10:48:24Z jmercouris: I have the following: (defparameter x (lambda (x) (print x)))
2019-11-12T10:48:39Z jmercouris: how can I make it so that I can do (y "lol") and have it call my lambda?
2019-11-12T10:48:49Z jmercouris: would I have to wrap my lambda in a defun?
2019-11-12T10:48:53Z jmercouris: is there a make-function or something?
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2019-11-12T10:51:43Z jmercouris: can I setf symbol-function?
2019-11-12T10:51:59Z jmercouris: wow, apparently I can
2019-11-12T10:52:30Z jmercouris: (setf (symbol-function 'y) x)
2019-11-12T10:52:43Z jmercouris: the spec is so large, does anyone know all of it?
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2019-11-12T10:56:28Z ralt: the typical way is (funcall x "bar")
2019-11-12T10:57:01Z jmercouris: Yeah, I know, I was just wondering that specifically
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2019-11-12T11:13:57Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: (setf (fdefinition 'y) (lambda () 42))
2019-11-12T11:14:03Z phoe: (defun y (string) (funcall x string))
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2019-11-12T11:17:50Z jackdaniel: I vote for my suggestion :)
2019-11-12T11:21:43Z phoe: yes, that is even better if you do not need any indirection
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2019-11-12T11:40:02Z jmercouris: I vote for world peace :) all solutions work nicely
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2019-11-13T00:09:57Z aeth: I think I found the problem with zpb-ttf and this one font I tried to load. It looks like it only supports format 4 for cmap subtables, but that code never got executed to error message... which is probably because this font file has multiple cmap tables and the first is format 4.
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2019-11-13T00:22:56Z vms14: guys someone tried a lisp server for production?
2019-11-13T00:23:09Z vms14: and with sbcl+hunchentoot?
2019-11-13T00:24:10Z patrixl: production yes, but was an internal product not facing the wide internet
2019-11-13T00:24:14Z vms14: I really like it and I wonder how would behave being a very busy server, I know it depends of the "kind of server", but would you rely on hunchentoot+sbcl as a standalone server?
2019-11-13T00:24:15Z patrixl: radiance on top of hunchentoot
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2019-11-13T00:25:14Z patrixl: so yeah no idea how it would perform as a busy server
2019-11-13T00:25:26Z vms14: I suppose if you compile it, you'd gain some performance
2019-11-13T00:26:04Z vms14: would be better than something like apache+php?
2019-11-13T00:26:04Z patrixl: I suppose so yes
2019-11-13T00:28:44Z vms14: My initial idea is to use nginx as a front end server and serving static files, then reverse proxy to hunchentoot for dynamic stuff
2019-11-13T00:29:06Z vms14: I don't know if makes sense to add another server like apache for some specific things
2019-11-13T00:29:21Z vms14: but it seems nope
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2019-11-13T01:07:48Z aeth: vms14: Afaik, CL's performance is going to be roughly comparable to Java's, except without the diverse selection of quality GCs (unless you use ABCL, of course), and without the warmup time of a JIT since they're mostly AOT compiled.
2019-11-13T01:09:15Z aeth: Of course, the specifics depend on how it's written. You can write slow code in any language.
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2019-11-13T01:13:46Z vms14: aeth: you mean the java GC is better than sbcl's or other common lisp implementations?
2019-11-13T01:14:37Z vms14: and I've read a lot of times for a noob lisper is very easy to make slow code
2019-11-13T01:14:44Z vms14: so my code will be slow
2019-11-13T01:14:50Z vms14: I'm aware of consing, but no more
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2019-11-13T01:20:24Z housel: Many of the JVM garbage collectors are very good, because serious research effort has been spent on them; SBCL's is not bad, but still not quite as good (depending on how it's used)
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2019-11-13T01:25:07Z aeth: vms14: Specifics tend to be faster than generics. In some languages, "generics" are hard or impossible. On the other hand, in CL, it's often hard to not do something generic. e.g. Save something in a hash-table and then take it right out again and the implementation just lost all of its type inference and it could be anything.
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2019-11-13T01:26:24Z aeth: Also, CL will (* unless the implementation removes these if you locally set (safety 0)) bounds check if it doesn't know the length of an array. Combine the two. Put an array in a hash-table. Now it must bounds check that array on access if it's accessed via gethash.
2019-11-13T01:27:04Z aeth: Fast code certainly is possible to write, but there's lots of performance pitfalls in CL.
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2019-11-13T01:27:43Z aeth: Ideally, the language would be extended with either more type hints and/or preserving some type inference in mind.
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2019-11-13T01:29:36Z aeth: This is kinda micro-optimizing, though. What's more concerning is just how unflexible #'sort is in CL. This means people are more likely to have to copy to sort or sort via some hand-implemented and probably slower way.
2019-11-13T01:29:51Z vms14: btw I'm a bit tempted to try the berkeley database, it's just a hash table database, very fast and mysql was written on top of that some time ago. I like the idea of using hashtables and put lisp code as a string on the values, then read it to have the code again. But it's just an idea
2019-11-13T01:30:00Z Bike: what's the inflexible part
2019-11-13T01:31:07Z aeth: Bike: Sort will only work on sequences (although :key can help a bit), and unlike just about every other sequence function, it doesn't have start and end, so you have to subseq if you only want to sort a subseq.
2019-11-13T01:32:08Z Bike: oh, start and end would be good
2019-11-13T01:32:19Z Bike: i'm not sure what you'd want to sort other than a sequence though
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2019-11-13T01:32:32Z vms14: will common lisp have a new standard or alike? to at least add stuff like sockets, ffi, etc?
2019-11-13T01:32:36Z aeth: Bike: e.g. sorting rows in a 2D array
2019-11-13T01:32:59Z Bike: sort a displaced vector? also, in this alternate universe displaed vectors suck like
2019-11-13T01:33:02Z Bike: vms14: probably not
2019-11-13T01:33:04Z Bike: suck less*
2019-11-13T01:34:16Z aeth: Bike: Also, another interesting possibility is sorting multiple sequences to match the order of one sequence. Lots of sequence functions take in an arbitrary number. In this case, there are several options, e.g. only sort based on the order in the first, sort of a key sequence.
2019-11-13T01:34:20Z aeth: Another way to do that would be to have the predicate take in multiple arguments. I guess with the latter you can get the former by having the lambda list (item &rest rest) and ignoring rest
2019-11-13T01:34:38Z vms14: well, I really like the language even knowing I don't know most of it. I think it's fine, but could be great if the standard had some stuff implementations had to implement in a non compatible way
2019-11-13T01:35:25Z aeth: well, actually, there's two items so it'd be a bit trickier
2019-11-13T01:36:09Z aeth: Maybe something like (multiple-sequence-sort (lambda (first-sequence-x first-sequence-y &rest rest) (declare (ignore rest)) (< first-sequence-x first-sequence-y)) seq1 seq2 seq3 seq4 ...)
2019-11-13T01:36:15Z aeth: Could get messy internally if you mix vectors and lists, though
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2019-11-13T05:04:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: if it's guaranteed that the sequences are all of the same length, couldn't you use :KEY with something like (let ((idx 0)) (lambda (_) (prog1 (elt other-sequence idx) (incf idx)))) ?
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2019-11-13T05:05:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, never mind, that won't work
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2019-11-13T06:01:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-11-13T06:01:28Z edgar-rft: Mornings could be significantly improved if they weren't so early.
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2019-11-13T06:06:58Z aeth: edgar-rft: mornings are actually really, really late... I only see them if I stay up all night!
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2019-11-13T10:00:57Z LdBeth: aeth: so do I
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2019-11-13T10:05:21Z LdBeth: Most people get John Backus’ FP wrong. FP was inspired by early lisp where the use of higher order function is limit and only a few functions can take function as arguments, such as MAPCAR
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2019-11-13T11:49:24Z dra: Hi.
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2019-11-13T13:04:23Z beach: Hello dra.
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2019-11-13T13:37:42Z fivo: How do I muffle a defmethod redefinition in sbcl.
2019-11-13T13:37:47Z fivo: I tried
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2019-11-13T13:37:51Z fivo: (locally (declare #+sbcl(sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-kernel:redefinition-with-defmethod)) ....)
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2019-11-13T13:45:53Z Xach does not know sorry
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2019-11-13T13:50:08Z Cymew: It's not a style warning like a DEFUN redefinition? I have a note of this, which I never seems to have entered into my sbclrc for some reason: (declaim (sb-ext:muffle-conditions style-warning))
2019-11-13T13:50:46Z Cymew: Not close to a working sbcl to test right now.
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2019-11-13T13:55:26Z luis: fivo: see http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Controlling-Verbosity-1
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2019-11-13T14:12:12Z fivo: luis: yes I know, that is what I tried. Maybe I need to upgrade sbcl
2019-11-13T14:15:47Z luis: fivo: (defun foo () (declare (sb-ext:muffle-conditions style-warning)) (does-not-exist)) works for me with SBCL 1.5.8, yes.
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2019-11-13T14:16:23Z _death: (handler-bind ((sb-kernel:redefinition-with-defmethod #'muffle-warning)) (defmethod ...)) works
2019-11-13T14:17:53Z luis: (sorry, I missed you were looking specifically at defmethod redefinitions)
2019-11-13T14:19:08Z fivo: luis: yes, print-object to be more precise
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2019-11-13T14:25:49Z luis: fivo: I believe the method is added to the generic function (and the warning is signalled) when the fasl is loaded, not during compilation. I suppose that's why muffling via declare doesn't work.
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2019-11-13T14:27:54Z fivo: luis: I see. Is there a downside to using _deaths method as a toplevel form?
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2019-11-13T14:31:02Z luis: fivo: probably not. I don't think you should use the sb-kernel package though, it's a private implementation package.
2019-11-13T14:31:32Z luis: fivo: but then using warning would catch more warnings than you'd like, so I can see how you'd prefer to be more specific.
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2019-11-13T15:37:31Z z3t0: hi
2019-11-13T15:37:35Z z3t0: has anyone made any decent progress doing android development with any sort of lisp?
2019-11-13T15:37:58Z z3t0: I have noticed a few projects like EQL but it's not clear if its something thats being widely used / supported
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2019-11-13T15:39:59Z dlowe: z3t0: I hear good things about mocl
2019-11-13T15:40:04Z phadthai: some have used clojure, others ecl, I'm not sure in terms of statistics
2019-11-13T15:40:19Z dlowe: I didn't know ecl was used on android
2019-11-13T15:40:40Z dlowe: maybe the people at ##lisp would know more, since this channel is only Common Lisp
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2019-11-13T15:50:14Z z3t0: ah yep. I noticed that one. But was hoping to find something that was free, mainly because I want to at some point open source the application
2019-11-13T15:51:56Z _death: some recent work at https://github.com/thijs/android-ecl-bootstrap/
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2019-11-13T15:53:13Z pfdietz88: Racket runs on Android, if you don't want a Common Lisp.
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2019-11-13T16:15:16Z jackdaniel3: check put eql5-android project
2019-11-13T16:15:46Z jackdaniel3: there is also wip eql5-ios
2019-11-13T16:16:21Z jackdaniel3: both are based on ecl and give you interactive gui accessible from repl
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2019-11-13T16:26:24Z z3t0: Thanks! That gives me a lot of leads. EQL looks promising, though I'm not clear on how lispy the interaction is
2019-11-13T16:26:41Z z3t0: You say it gives a repl. does that mean I can do the usual slime development workflow?
2019-11-13T16:28:40Z jackdaniel3: yes
2019-11-13T16:29:38Z jackdaniel3: you may connect from desktop emacs to a phone
2019-11-13T16:32:43Z jackdaniel: Polos Ruetz (EQL author and maintainer) works on it actively and the project is around for a few years
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2019-11-13T16:33:31Z jackdaniel: so it is fair to say that the project is mature
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2019-11-13T16:34:17Z jackdaniel: here are ongoing efforts to bring ECL to IOS: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/merge_requests/164
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2019-11-13T16:42:41Z z3t0: thats awesome thanks :)
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2019-11-14T04:19:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-11-14T04:19:20Z Josh_2: Morning beach
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2019-11-14T07:03:26Z phoe: minion: memo for pfdietz: OK, I have some time again now, so time to work on Lisp things. Would it be okay to mark the LOOP tests that in some way utilize iteration variables in FINALLY as :ansi-spec-problem and add a proper comment there that describes the issue?
2019-11-14T07:03:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pfdietz when he/she/it next speaks.
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2019-11-14T13:30:15Z pfdietz: (see message from phoe)
2019-11-14T13:30:15Z minion: pfdietz, memo from phoe: OK, I have some time again now, so time to work on Lisp things. Would it be okay to mark the LOOP tests that in some way utilize iteration variables in FINALLY as :ansi-spec-problem and add a proper comment there that describes the issue?
2019-11-14T13:31:12Z pfdietz: phoe: I am not in charge of that repo.  I'm fine with that change, but it's not really my responsibility now.
2019-11-14T13:32:53Z jackdaniel: just say a word and you will ,p
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2019-11-14T13:33:04Z jackdaniel: will be*
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2019-11-14T13:59:34Z phoe: pfdietz: OK, I'll make a PR instead (and bother jackdaniel this way).
2019-11-14T14:01:10Z drmeister: Is there any point for PRINT-OBJECT to call-next-method to inherit some of the printing capabilities of base classes?
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2019-11-14T14:01:34Z drmeister: Or does every specialized PRINT-OBJECT method have to do everything itself?
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2019-11-14T14:12:46Z scymtym: drmeister: a method could do something specific for one value of *PRINT-READABLY* but let the next method handle the other value
2019-11-14T14:13:57Z Bike: there are default methods on standard-object and structure-object, if that's what you mean?
2019-11-14T14:14:04Z luis: Xach: what's the place to get the save-lisp-and-die t-shirt?
2019-11-14T14:15:05Z Xach: luis: i don't know these days, sorry. i think the graphic may need to be recreated or reimagined and made into new shirts
2019-11-14T14:15:17Z Xach: my shirts wore out :(
2019-11-14T14:15:27Z luis: Xach: a bunch of stores have it. Not sure where they got it from.
2019-11-14T14:15:43Z Xach: i have nothing to do with them (that i know of)
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2019-11-14T14:20:07Z pfdietz: I have a lisp T-shirt from Franz.  Probably doesn't fit me anymore.
2019-11-14T14:21:19Z pfdietz: BTW, many of these t-shirt places are happy to sell copyright-violating product.  They're protected by the DMCA if they take down the shirts (which were uploaded by third parties) when notice is given.
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2019-11-14T14:22:46Z dlowe: luis: if you're looking for lisp swag, there's this too: https://www.zazzle.com/store/lisplove
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2019-11-14T14:56:52Z _death: using dmca to take down shirts.. noted
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2019-11-14T15:14:57Z dra: Hi.
2019-11-14T15:17:11Z Josh_2: Hey
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2019-11-14T15:22:06Z drmeister: scymtym, Bike: Thank you.
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2019-11-14T15:40:49Z Traust: minion: registration, please?
2019-11-14T15:40:49Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=da8abb60 will be valid until 15:45 UTC.
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2019-11-14T15:43:49Z Traust: minion: registration, please?
2019-11-14T15:43:49Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=da8abb60 will be valid until 15:45 UTC.
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2019-11-14T15:55:29Z Xach: Why do people do that?
2019-11-14T15:55:35Z Xach: Is there a website that instructs them to do so?
2019-11-14T15:55:58Z dlowe: presumably the gitlab hosted at common-lisp.net does so
2019-11-14T15:55:59Z pjb: yes.
2019-11-14T15:56:13Z dlowe: as an anti-spam measure
2019-11-14T15:56:33Z Xach: It sucks and I wish it were different. Private messages, maybe.
2019-11-14T15:56:39Z dlowe: it might be preferable to give instructions for private messages
2019-11-14T15:56:45Z pjb: Note: the spammers know how to use private messges.
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2019-11-14T15:57:14Z Shinmera: Ah, yeah, since the channel is +r it at least requires nickserv auth if it's in the channel.
2019-11-14T15:57:30Z Shinmera: Still, a dedicated +r channel for the registration would be much better.
2019-11-14T15:57:38Z ck_: that's something the bot could find out for private messages as well, couldn't it?
2019-11-14T15:57:41Z dlowe: the spammers know how to use channel messages too, I'm sure
2019-11-14T15:57:47Z dlowe: assuming they do
2019-11-14T15:58:10Z dlowe: a link given by minion seems like a special enough case that it wouldn't be caught by automated systems
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2019-11-14T15:58:40Z pjb: Until they catch up.
2019-11-14T15:59:04Z Shinmera: ultimately any set of instructions a human can follow can be automated, it only needs to be sufficiently obtuse to catch most spam.
2019-11-14T15:59:31Z pjb: And those registration requests are irritating enough that I already started to design a bot to wreak havoc with them!
2019-11-14T15:59:42Z Josh_2: oof
2019-11-14T16:00:20Z dlowe: Shinmera: sure, but you have to be noticed first.  My blog had an anti-spam measure that consisted of typing the word "elbow" into a field.
2019-11-14T16:00:35Z dlowe: with instructions to type "elbow" into the field
2019-11-14T16:00:45Z Shinmera: dlowe: That's my argument. This seems excessive.
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2019-11-14T16:06:23Z Xach: I object only to random one-time visitors putting stuff in #lisp.
2019-11-14T16:07:00Z _death: doesn't clnet has its own irc channel?
2019-11-14T16:07:04Z _death: *have
2019-11-14T16:07:07Z Shinmera: It does.
2019-11-14T16:07:15Z flip214: but there's no minion in there
2019-11-14T16:07:28Z _death: seems more logical to tell minion to join there then
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2019-11-14T16:13:07Z _death: since it's not a user-specific link, could just set clnet's channel topic
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2019-11-14T19:07:06Z sjl: If I have something like (restart-case (foo) (do-something () :test my-condition-p (something ...)) is there a way that the body of the restart (the (something...)) can get the condition object?
2019-11-14T19:07:52Z sjl: I know I can make it take an argument (restart-case (foo) (do-something (condition) :test my-condition-p (something condition)) and then invoke it with (invoke-restart (find-restart ...) condition)
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2019-11-14T19:08:05Z sjl: But then that doesn't work when I try to select it from the debugger interactively
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2019-11-14T19:13:34Z sjl: I could do something horrifying like having a (let (condition)) around the entire thing and setf'ing condition in the :test
2019-11-14T19:13:38Z sjl: but that seems... bad
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2019-11-14T19:19:14Z pjb: sjl: the way to get the condition, is to use handler-case or handler-bind.
2019-11-14T19:19:40Z sjl: Right, but if I don't use those, I want to still be able to interactively invoke the restart
2019-11-14T19:20:04Z sjl: But in order to actually do the useful thing, it needs to have access to the condition object
2019-11-14T19:21:35Z pjb: For example: (restart-case (handler-bind ((error #'(lambda (condition) (do-something-with-condition condition) (invoke-restart 'my-restart 7)))) (do-something-possibly-bad))  (my-restart (&optional v) v))
2019-11-14T19:22:01Z sjl: ... You both saw me say I know I can do it with (invoke-restart) right?
2019-11-14T19:22:48Z pjb: If you insist to process the condition in the restart, you can do something like:
2019-11-14T19:22:48Z pjb:  (restart-case (handler-bind ((error #'(lambda (condition) (invoke-restart 'my-restart condition)))) (do-something-possibly-bad))  (my-restart (&optional c) (when c (do-something-with-condition c))))
2019-11-14T19:22:49Z sjl: I want it to work when there are no handlers bound, when invoked interactively through the debugger
2019-11-14T19:23:03Z pjb: You want magic.
2019-11-14T19:23:24Z pjb: You are the magician=programer, you need to use handler-bind to get the condition!
2019-11-14T19:23:38Z pjb: If you want to hide it, write a macro, just like any good magician!
2019-11-14T19:23:43Z pjb: Casting Spels in Lisp  Conrad Barski, M.D.  http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html
2019-11-14T19:24:15Z _death: maybe you can use *debugger-hook*
2019-11-14T19:26:28Z sjl: this "works" but is clearly awful http://paste.stevelosh.com/c1e06e8844da5598d87a7c1862b3a7a1c2a41fd6
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2019-11-14T19:40:02Z forty-two: I can't quite figure out whether or not the append in the last line can be replaced with nconc https://pastebin.com/raw/0MbCscK8
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2019-11-14T19:41:19Z buffergn0me: sjl: Doesn't look that awful to me. I do agree that condition system introspection is lacking. Something like (signalled-condition) would work. Also there is no dual to find-restart.
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2019-11-14T19:44:00Z tfb: forty-two: I don't think it can, naively anyway: the results of remove-if &c may share structure with their arguments (and, really, may be their arguments)
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2019-11-14T19:46:01Z pjb: fouric: it can, since you are concatenating lists that you have built yourself.
2019-11-14T19:46:30Z pjb: s/fouric/forty-two/
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2019-11-14T19:47:17Z pjb: forty-two: actually, remove-if and remove-if-not don't necessarily return fresh lists.
2019-11-14T19:47:30Z pjb: forty-two: you need to use something else to be able to use nconc.
2019-11-14T19:47:46Z buffergn0me: I am on tfb's side. Shared structure is one of many reasons why vectors are better than lists.
2019-11-14T19:48:09Z pjb: forty-two: for example: (loop for x in others if (filter x) collect into left else collect into right finally (nconc (qsort left) (list middle) (qsort right)))
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2019-11-14T19:49:14Z pjb: forty-two: of course, you would have used that loop in the first place, so nconc would have already been possible. The main error is to use remove-if and remove-if-not which processes the list twice, calling filter on each element twice…
2019-11-14T19:49:31Z tfb: my guess is that nconc is actually safe here but the reasons are subtle
2019-11-14T19:50:09Z tfb: ... at least too subtle for me
2019-11-14T19:50:14Z pjb: tfb: it you trust implementations to return actually a copy and not a list sharing a tail with the original!
2019-11-14T19:51:04Z dlowe: my view is to ignore nconc and its ilk if there's even the slightest doubt
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2019-11-14T19:51:11Z pjb: Notably, since you use remove-if-not and remove-if, you could share a tail in at least one of left or right, so nconc would break.
2019-11-14T19:51:29Z dlowe: for one thing, destructive list operations could screw with quoted lists
2019-11-14T19:51:41Z tfb: pjb: no, you're right, I think it's not safe, sorry
2019-11-14T19:51:42Z pjb: If you use your own loop and avoid the double processing, there's no doubt.
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2019-11-14T19:52:06Z dlowe: why waste the cognitive effort to figure it out
2019-11-14T19:52:19Z pjb: for efficiency :-)
2019-11-14T19:52:34Z tfb: dlowe: because you would have saved whole microseconds on a pdp-11
2019-11-14T19:52:42Z dlowe: tfb: exactly
2019-11-14T19:53:11Z forty-two: CLHS says remove, remove-if, remove-if-not are non-destructive.  If any elements need to be removed, the result will be a copy.
2019-11-14T19:53:41Z tfb: forty-two: but if no elements are removed no copy may be done
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2019-11-14T19:54:39Z Bike: also if the tail of the list doesn't need anything removed it can be shared with the result, so the result is not entirely a copy
2019-11-14T19:54:49Z Bike: like pjb said
2019-11-14T19:54:49Z forty-two: The result of remove may share with sequence
2019-11-14T19:55:59Z pjb: Implementation seem to implement strictly the spec there.  But indeed, you could get () (cdr others) or (cdr others) ().
2019-11-14T19:56:17Z forty-two: doesn't say anything about remove-if, remove-if-not  sharing with sequence
2019-11-14T19:56:18Z dlowe: if you really want a copy you can call copy-list
2019-11-14T19:56:22Z pjb: for example, on: (qsort (list 1 2 3 4 5))
2019-11-14T19:56:55Z Bike: i don't see any reason to believe remove can share structure but not the others. that would be pretty arbitrary, wouldn't it?
2019-11-14T19:57:42Z pjb: Indeed.
2019-11-14T19:57:46Z forty-two: bike: yes, it seems arbitrary.
2019-11-14T19:58:16Z Bike: ecl and clasp implement remove-if(-not) using remove
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2019-11-14T20:02:12Z forty-two: thanks everyone!
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2019-11-14T20:56:49Z phoe: Xach: you could let ehuelsmann know at #common-lisp.net that minion should perhaps have a separate channel for gitlab registrations
2019-11-14T20:57:12Z phoe: I remember that he had something in common with implementing this in minion in the first place
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2019-11-14T20:57:38Z phoe: and by the common thing I don't just mean lisp
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2019-11-14T21:59:36Z Xach:  /win 3
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2019-11-14T22:02:01Z Lycurgus: so you use irssi
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2019-11-14T22:29:12Z Xach: sorry!
2019-11-14T22:31:02Z jackdaniel: /quit
2019-11-14T22:32:25Z phadthai: Lycurgus: or xchat, or hexchat, or epic, or ircii, or... any client supporting those commands :)
2019-11-14T22:33:11Z phadthai checks the status of bitchx
2019-11-14T22:33:47Z Lycurgus: maybe, on the gui ones, I just use the controls
2019-11-14T22:33:49Z Xach: I'm sorry I don't use the clim irc program. The name escapes me.
2019-11-14T22:33:56Z Xach: beirc?
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2019-11-14T22:53:56Z jackdaniel: Xach: yes
2019-11-14T22:54:05Z jackdaniel: but it needs some work
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2019-11-15T04:06:45Z lxbarbosa: haha, my script just surpassed >1k :D
2019-11-15T04:06:51Z Josh_2: huh?
2019-11-15T04:06:55Z lxbarbosa: my first 1k
2019-11-15T04:06:59Z lxbarbosa: :D
2019-11-15T04:07:00Z Josh_2: 1k sloc?
2019-11-15T04:07:03Z lxbarbosa: yep
2019-11-15T04:07:06Z Josh_2: oh right cool :)
2019-11-15T04:07:16Z lxbarbosa: Josh_2: just a bunch of one-trick pony functions :D
2019-11-15T04:07:31Z lxbarbosa: o/
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2019-11-15T04:08:25Z lxbarbosa: pylint: [too-many-lines] Too many lines in module (1014/1000)
2019-11-15T04:09:06Z no-defun-allowed wonders how pylint would not choke on a Lisp script
2019-11-15T04:09:31Z lxbarbosa: no-defun-allowed: lol wrong room again :D
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2019-11-15T04:12:16Z no-defun-allowed: But if you have a project that's longer than 10kloc, you probably have multiple projects.
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2019-11-15T04:16:39Z no-defun-allowed: And a 1kloc "script" is probably a bit long.
2019-11-15T04:21:38Z kirkwood: minion: registration, please?
2019-11-15T04:21:38Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=c0f3b8b5 will be valid until 04:30 UTC.
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2019-11-15T05:15:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-11-15T05:15:39Z Josh_2: Mornin beach
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2019-11-15T05:16:20Z Fare: good night everyone
2019-11-15T05:17:05Z Fare: I eventually implemented that prototype object system I wanted to write, in a hundred lines of code — in Gerbil Scheme, not Common Lisp, though.
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2019-11-15T10:45:01Z phoe: morniiiing
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2019-11-15T10:45:38Z Josh_2: Mornin
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2019-11-15T11:30:10Z phoe: OK. One ansi-test PR done...
2019-11-15T11:30:57Z ck_: phoe: does it return 5 or 6?
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2019-11-15T11:35:39Z phoe: ck_: why do you have to start with the hard question
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2019-11-15T11:36:47Z phoe: the current tl;dr is - the value is undefined since the spec contradicts itself in the wording
2019-11-15T11:37:18Z Shinmera: Finally a real reason to fund another committee
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2019-11-15T11:48:20Z phoe grabs his wallet while thinking how much would it cost to fund the ANSI X3J13-2 committee to find an answer whether it should return 5 or 6
2019-11-15T11:48:52Z Shinmera: If you can call up Guy Steele maybe not that much.
2019-11-15T11:49:49Z ralt: depends what you want to put in it
2019-11-15T11:50:04Z _death: Just DO it
2019-11-15T11:50:19Z phoe: okay let's settle this by consensus
2019-11-15T11:50:23Z ralt: threads, sockets, regex, etc? probably not much. return 5 or 6? better ask elon musk for help
2019-11-15T11:50:32Z phoe: (loop for i from 1 to 5 finally (return i))
2019-11-15T11:50:36Z antoszka: phoe: the answer is, obviously, 42.
2019-11-15T11:50:38Z phoe: ; → 5½
2019-11-15T11:50:43Z antoszka: As another committee found out.
2019-11-15T11:50:58Z Shinmera: antoszka: that's the answer to a different question.
2019-11-15T11:51:10Z antoszka: Maybe.
2019-11-15T11:51:31Z ralt: that different question is a superset of all the other questions though
2019-11-15T11:51:57Z antoszka: T
2019-11-15T11:52:46Z _death: (do ((i 1 (1+ i))) ((> i 5) i)) ;; easy to tell what the result should be
2019-11-15T11:53:16Z phoe:                  ;; This post was made by the DO gang
2019-11-15T11:53:45Z Josh_2: do is good stuff
2019-11-15T11:54:44Z jackdaniel: don't-do-do sounds stupid, so I'd settle on do-do
2019-11-15T11:55:02Z Josh_2: phoe: well sbcl returns 6, so should probably rely on that?
2019-11-15T11:55:05Z jackdaniel: (music theme intensifies)
2019-11-15T11:55:13Z Josh_2: although that is pretty strange xD
2019-11-15T11:55:32Z ck_: phoe: I think finally should signal a condition. That way, every user can provide the value they like best.
2019-11-15T11:56:01Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: sbcl is just yet another implementation of common lisp (i.e its behavior is not normative - in practice though it usually is)
2019-11-15T11:56:10Z ck_: alternatively, we could fork from the lisp-2 we currently have into lisp-5 and lisp-6 and go our seperate ways
2019-11-15T11:56:13Z phoe: (defmacro don (x &body body) (declare (ignore x)) `(do ,&body))
2019-11-15T11:56:24Z phoe: (don't ((i 1 (1+ i))) ((> i 5) i))
2019-11-15T11:56:27Z Josh_2: yes I agree, however surely It's best to just implement the behaviour the majority of other implementors have?
2019-11-15T11:56:33Z Josh_2: that way then code is more portable
2019-11-15T11:56:46Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: portable code should never depend on value of i in finally clause
2019-11-15T11:56:50Z Josh_2: yes
2019-11-15T11:56:52Z Josh_2: I agree
2019-11-15T11:56:57Z jackdaniel: so if anything depends on it then it can't be more or less portable
2019-11-15T11:57:00Z Josh_2: but if that is the case it doesn't matter
2019-11-15T11:57:02Z Josh_2: just signal an error
2019-11-15T11:57:12Z phoe: ...I should not have mentioned that
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2019-11-15T11:57:21Z Josh_2: or just return 6 ;)
2019-11-15T11:57:21Z jackdaniel: I believe that's what beach's WSCL implementation would do
2019-11-15T11:57:32Z phoe: I should have made that MR silently rather than remark about it here
2019-11-15T11:57:36Z jackdaniel: (that is, signal the error)
2019-11-15T11:57:37Z phoe: the discussion never ends
2019-11-15T11:58:16Z jackdaniel: people will get tired eventually and stop discussing until the next mention
2019-11-15T11:58:18Z jackdaniel: no worries
2019-11-15T11:59:07Z phoe: I need to set up an IRC bot that connects to #lisp once every 1-4 weeks and asks "hey folks why does this loop form return 6"
2019-11-15T11:59:33Z Josh_2: xD
2019-11-15T11:59:34Z phoe: yes, this is exactly how I will get banned from this channel
2019-11-15T11:59:47Z Shinmera: what a hill to die on
2019-11-15T11:59:58Z phoe: memento mori, Shinmera, memento mori
2019-11-15T12:00:03Z phoe: it is good to try and plan in advance
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2019-11-15T12:06:21Z ck_: what will you do with your time afterwards?
2019-11-15T12:07:54Z Shinmera: I still have hopes he'll help me out with Alloy or something.
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2019-11-15T12:10:58Z phoe: ...I also need to set up an IRC bot that connects to #shirakumo once every 1-4 weeks and asks "hey folks why does this loop form return 6"
2019-11-15T12:11:53Z Shinmera: only a couple of lines with Maiden, that.
2019-11-15T12:12:08Z phoe: deal
2019-11-15T12:12:25Z _death: you could implement it as (loop for week from 1 to 4 finally (return week))
2019-11-15T12:12:48Z phoe: (incf _death)
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2019-11-15T12:22:09Z _death: (defmacro phoebot (form) `(once-every (weeks #1=,form) (message "Hey guys, why does ~S return ~S?" ',form #1#)))
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2019-11-15T12:25:55Z _death: (though that still evaluates FORM twice..)
2019-11-15T12:26:17Z phoe: you need to use ONCE-ONLY along with ONCE-EVERY
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2019-11-15T12:59:42Z phoe: I have a question about ANSI-TEST DEFSETF.7A https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1546#1546
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2019-11-15T13:00:00Z phoe: Currently CCL fails this test with "Undefined function (SETF ACCESS-FN) called with arguments (2 1)."
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2019-11-15T13:02:37Z pjb: phoe: does deftest maintain the toplevelness of the tested form?
2019-11-15T13:03:45Z phoe: I have no idea. This is one of my suspect, along with some package shenanigans that might be going on.
2019-11-15T13:03:53Z pjb: phoe:  the last paragraph of clhs defsetf description is conditional, it applies only "If a defsetf form appears as a top level form".
2019-11-15T13:04:00Z phoe: If I call the PROGN manually, then it returns (1 2 3) as it is supposed to.
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2019-11-15T13:04:20Z phoe: So the test itself should pass, but it instead fails.
2019-11-15T13:04:22Z pjb: See macroexpand the deftest to check.
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2019-11-15T13:04:41Z phoe: (REGRESSION-TEST::ADD-ENTRY (REGRESSION-TEST::MAKE-ENTRY :PEND T :NAME 'DEFSETF.7A :PROPS 'NIL :FORM '(PROGN (DEFSETF ACCESS-FN (X) (VAL-1 VAL-2) (LIST* 'LIST (LIST* X (LIST* VAL-1 (LIST VAL-2))))) (EVAL (READ-FROM-STRING "(setf (access-fn 1) (values 2 3))"))) :VALS '((1 2 3))))
2019-11-15T13:04:49Z phoe: That doesn't help me much just yet.
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2019-11-15T13:05:05Z phoe: I need to figure out how the entries are executed.
2019-11-15T13:05:06Z pjb: Then we'd have to see how this is used.
2019-11-15T13:05:08Z pjb: Yes.
2019-11-15T13:05:26Z phoe: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/blob/master/rt.lsp#L235
2019-11-15T13:06:21Z phoe: So this calls FUNCALL with COMPILE (line 258), or EVAL (lines 266 and 269).
2019-11-15T13:06:39Z pjb: When *compile-test* it puts the form in a lambda expression, so it won't keep toplevelness.
2019-11-15T13:06:52Z pjb: When *expand-eval* it uses expanded-eval.
2019-11-15T13:07:16Z phoe: > If a defsetf form appears as a top level form, the compiler must make the setf expander available so that it may be used to expand calls to setf later on in the file.
2019-11-15T13:07:16Z pjb: Only in the last case, it uses EVAL, which should keep toplevelness.
2019-11-15T13:07:45Z phoe: One second though. Let's take a look at the test form again.
2019-11-15T13:07:50Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1546#1546
2019-11-15T13:08:09Z phoe: DEFSETF in line 3 is executed as a non-top-level form.
2019-11-15T13:08:11Z pjb: 1- ansi-test should preserve toplevelness in all cases.  2- however, it would be nice if the implementation would do something nice even when defsetf (and other similar forms) are not used in toplevel.
2019-11-15T13:08:25Z phoe: Then a form is EVAL'd.
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2019-11-15T13:09:16Z phoe: By the time that EVAL is reached, (SETF ACCESS-FN) should be available, even if DEFSETF wasn't toplevel.
2019-11-15T13:09:20Z pjb: Try: (progn (eval '(defsetf access-fn (x) (val-1 val-2) `(list ,x ,val-1 ,val-2))) (eval (read-from-string "(setf (access-fn 1) (values 2 3))")))
2019-11-15T13:09:22Z phoe: This is the way I understand it.
2019-11-15T13:09:33Z pjb: or ((lambda () (progn (eval '(defsetf access-fn (x) (val-1 val-2) `(list ,x ,val-1 ,val-2))) (eval (read-from-string "(setf (access-fn 1) (values 2 3))")))))
2019-11-15T13:09:35Z phoe: It works at toplevel, (1 2 3).
2019-11-15T13:09:46Z phoe: The latter works, too.
2019-11-15T13:12:06Z pjb: and ((lambda () (progn (funcall (compile nil  '(lambda () (defsetf access-fn (x) (val-1 val-2) `(list ,x ,val-1 ,val-2))))) (eval (read-from-string "(setf (access-fn 1) (values 2 3))"))))) works too, so I don't see why the test fails.
2019-11-15T13:12:35Z pjb: What version are you testing? Here "Version 1.12-dev (v1.12-dev.4-4-gd9740256) Darwinx8664"
2019-11-15T13:13:01Z phoe: Most recent version off my fork.
2019-11-15T13:13:28Z phoe: My fork doesn't differ all that much from master though.
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2019-11-15T13:19:49Z phoe: ...wait a second though
2019-11-15T13:20:46Z phoe: the symbols in the form are DEFSETF CL-TEST::ACCESS-FN
2019-11-15T13:20:57Z phoe: but the function in question is SETF ACCESS-FN
2019-11-15T13:21:53Z pjb: So it was the second hypothesis…
2019-11-15T13:23:28Z phoe: And also DEFSETF X does not create the #'(SETF X) function
2019-11-15T13:23:40Z pjb: It doesn't have to.
2019-11-15T13:23:47Z phoe: right
2019-11-15T13:24:51Z phoe: actually why the hell does that form use READ-FROM-STRING
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2019-11-15T13:25:38Z phoe: why cannot it simply (eval '(setf (access-fn 1) (values 2 3)))
2019-11-15T13:26:05Z pjb: precisely to avoid the error you got.
2019-11-15T13:26:24Z phoe: well then it avoids it quite poorly
2019-11-15T13:26:30Z pjb: Yes, eval setf should do.  The setf alone would have given the error.
2019-11-15T13:26:41Z phoe: no no
2019-11-15T13:27:20Z phoe: EVAL READ-FROM-STRING is redundant
2019-11-15T13:27:23Z phoe: EVAL would be enough
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2019-11-15T13:28:26Z pjb: (compile nil '(lambda () (progn (defsetf access-fn4 (x) (val-1 val-2) `(list ,x ,val-1 ,val-2)) (setf (access-fn4 1) (values 2 3)))))  -> ;Compiler warnings :  In an anonymous lambda form: Undefined function (setf access-fn4)
2019-11-15T13:28:55Z phoe: but you use COMPILE, I use EVAL
2019-11-15T13:29:08Z pjb: But with (compile nil '(lambda () (progn (eval '(defsetf access-fn5 (x) (val-1 val-2) `(list ,x ,val-1 ,val-2)))  (eval '(setf (access-fn5 1) (values 2 3)))))) it's ok.
2019-11-15T13:30:11Z pjb: So indeed, we should replicate the behavior load, which means evaluating each toplevel form in turn.
2019-11-15T13:31:24Z phoe: So EVAL DEFSETF and then EVAL SETF, correct?
2019-11-15T13:31:31Z pjb:  Yes.
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2019-11-15T13:31:49Z phoe: OK. https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/merge_requests/25
2019-11-15T13:31:54Z pjb: Then you can use a progn form containing this sequence of eval as well in a compile or in an eval.
2019-11-15T13:32:23Z pfdietz: (arrives to see ansi-test mentioned)
2019-11-15T13:32:40Z phoe: pfdietz: actually I didn't mention you yourself
2019-11-15T13:32:48Z pfdietz: :)
2019-11-15T13:32:56Z phoe: I'm just throwing stuff at the repository and waiting for jd to wake up and curse me in his mind
2019-11-15T13:33:43Z phoe: And I'm also throwing merge requests so the amount of cursing is as small as possible
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2019-11-15T17:41:50Z easye: The mailing lists hosted @common-lisp.net had not been delivering messages since October 26th.  We restarted the service, and the backlog of messages has been injected into SMTP over the last hour.  We apologize for the inconvenience.
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2019-11-15T17:43:55Z davd33: Hello there!
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2019-11-15T17:44:17Z davd33: Is there some people living here? :)
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2019-11-15T17:45:12Z Josh_2: yes
2019-11-15T17:45:31Z davd33: Ok! good to know!
2019-11-15T17:45:31Z phoe: some
2019-11-15T17:45:34Z phadthai: I don't live here, but... hello :)
2019-11-15T17:45:50Z davd33: Hello ^^
2019-11-15T17:45:51Z dlowe: you could live here
2019-11-15T17:45:52Z phoe: (some #'alivep (irc-channel "#lisp")) ;=> T
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2019-11-15T17:46:07Z phoe: heyyy, what's up
2019-11-15T17:46:27Z davd33: (remove-if-not #'alivep (irc-channel "#lisp"))
2019-11-15T17:46:55Z davd33: Just hacking some CL for the Github Game off.
2019-11-15T17:47:10Z phoe: does #lispgames know?
2019-11-15T17:47:21Z davd33: No Oo
2019-11-15T17:47:22Z phoe: they would be interested methinks
2019-11-15T17:47:26Z phoe: go tell em
2019-11-15T17:47:35Z davd33: I'll drop some message there
2019-11-15T17:49:35Z davd33: Otherwise, what do you hack in CL these days?
2019-11-15T17:50:18Z phoe: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/dwn0jz/whats_everyone_hacking_on_q4_2019/
2019-11-15T17:50:28Z phoe: this post is literally the answer to your question
2019-11-15T17:50:33Z phoe: mostly because it is literally your question
2019-11-15T17:52:24Z dlowe: I wrote a arithmetic game for my kid
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2019-11-15T17:55:05Z davd33: phoe: xD thanks
2019-11-15T17:55:30Z davd33: dlowe: what kind of game?
2019-11-15T17:55:52Z ck_: easye: aha! so that's what that was about. thanks for the information.
2019-11-15T17:56:31Z dlowe: it's actually super bare-bones, intentionally so
2019-11-15T17:57:07Z dlowe: the student gets a stimulating reward when they get the problem right, nothing if they get it wrong
2019-11-15T17:57:15Z dlowe: and they have to sit there for five seconds doing nothing
2019-11-15T17:58:08Z dlowe: it measures the amount of time it took for them to answer and uses it as a proxy (when there's a correct answer) for being learned
2019-11-15T17:58:48Z dlowe: and schedules the question to come again at a greater interval the more that the student has learned the fact
2019-11-15T17:59:37Z dlowe: They have to spend five minutes, and if they get through all the scheduled questions, they get new questions, which steadily increase in difficulty
2019-11-15T18:00:35Z dlowe: I'd share it but it doesn't have an account system or anything so anyone looking at it would screw with the stats
2019-11-15T18:01:06Z dlowe: built with hunchentoot and cl-json
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2019-11-15T18:02:30Z Xach: theory y algebra
2019-11-15T18:04:38Z davd33: Sounds cool, I actually had a similar project two years ago, but for German language training. Your game might work for anything that someone would want to learn/train isn't it?
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2019-11-15T18:04:39Z dlowe: Xach: I don't follow?
2019-11-15T18:05:15Z Xach: dlowe: flashback to kenny tilton's frequently-promoted math tutor system
2019-11-15T18:05:22Z dlowe: davd33: yeah, I mean, it's just spaced repetition applied to arithmetic, but the rewards are carefully designed
2019-11-15T18:05:57Z dlowe: we were trying out other apps and stuff and they all get that stuff wrong
2019-11-15T18:06:27Z dlowe: with either distracting stimulation or misleading stimulation
2019-11-15T18:07:15Z dlowe: It's now "Tilton's Algebra" apparently http://tiltontec.com/
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2019-11-15T18:07:29Z ck_: I thought the url was socialalgebra.com
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2019-11-15T18:08:15Z dlowe: well now apparently it's http://www.tiltonsalgebra.com/
2019-11-15T18:08:25Z davd33: What do you have to study in order to under to understand how to build your program: psychology ... ? What do you base your algorithm on?
2019-11-15T18:08:50Z dlowe: I have a background specifically in knowledge and skills acquisition
2019-11-15T18:09:00Z dlowe: from a cognitive psych standpoint
2019-11-15T18:09:08Z dlowe: which is how I got into CL, incidentally
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2019-11-15T18:11:32Z sugarwren: psych got you into CL?
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2019-11-15T18:11:46Z sugarwren: psych people I know (knew, rather) were all about SPSS or R
2019-11-15T18:13:23Z dlowe: cognitive psych has a lot of computer modeling, and all the papers are in CL, and not being programmers, they'll be damned if they learn more than one language
2019-11-15T18:13:51Z dlowe: and their programs are universally terrible (because not programmers)
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2019-11-15T18:14:02Z dlowe: I got hired in as a tech
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2019-11-15T18:35:12Z LdBeth: dlowe: do you know PLATO project
2019-11-15T18:36:15Z dlowe: LdBeth: do you have an url for disambiguation?
2019-11-15T18:36:32Z dlowe: unfortunately there are a lot of Plato projects
2019-11-15T18:36:48Z LdBeth: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLATO_(computer_system)
2019-11-15T18:37:00Z dlowe: okay, yeah, I'm aware of it.
2019-11-15T18:38:33Z LdBeth: Have you had a chance using that system? If so what’s your opinion about it?
2019-11-15T18:38:52Z dlowe: I haven't done it, but I do know there are readily-available free emulators
2019-11-15T18:39:42Z LdBeth: Ah, yes
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2019-11-15T19:38:31Z shka_: yay
2019-11-15T19:38:48Z shka_: ABCL will get update! :D
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2019-11-15T20:39:49Z jasom: dlowe: that's interesting because my daugher would just guess the answer repeatedly until she got enough right for the reward under a typical online learning system
2019-11-15T20:40:45Z jasom: dlowe: the only one we found that worked is one for which the name is escaping me, but you need to get all questions right on the quiz or it makes you listen to the entire lesson again.  That was annoying enough to get her to not guess.
2019-11-15T20:41:29Z jasom: she got through her two days of standardized testing in 1 hour because she discovered that if you get N problems wrong in a row, it moves on to the next subject, and just answered everything wrong...
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2019-11-15T22:21:03Z Demosthenex: is there a way to make a code block that is only evaluated in slime?
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2019-11-15T22:29:33Z phoe: Demosthenex: what do you mean, only evaluated in slime?
2019-11-15T22:29:41Z phoe: Only evaluated when there is an active slime connection?
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2019-11-15T22:31:57Z Lycurgus: make it emacs lisp is one way
2019-11-15T22:33:57Z Demosthenex: phoe: yes, so i'm testing something and i need to db connection always created in slime, but otherwise the compiled version handles it differently
2019-11-15T22:34:10Z Demosthenex: i was hoping i could wrap a code block so it'd only be evaluated when slime-eval-buffer was called
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2019-11-15T22:38:43Z jasom: Demosthenex: #+swank ought to do it
2019-11-15T22:39:11Z jasom: Demosthenex: if you happen to load swank, then it will be skipped, but if swank is only loaded when you are debugging that should work
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2019-11-15T23:26:28Z jeosol: good morning
2019-11-15T23:27:09Z oni-on-ion: hello
2019-11-15T23:29:13Z jeosol: doing ok. been a while.
2019-11-15T23:31:11Z jeosol: I wanted to bounce some code improvement ideas here to see what other suggestions. The aim is to reduce storage
2019-11-15T23:33:23Z jeosol: I am modeling some anisotrophy effect (3D property varying in directions X,Y,Z) so I have to store large matrices (size depends on the problem). I have functions get_propx(i,j,k), that returns the value of a property in 3D array (similarly for y and z).
2019-11-15T23:34:39Z jeosol: I store the large matrices in global variables *X*, *Y*, *Z*. Occasionally, *Y* and *Z* are multiples of *X* and I would like to only store *X* which should be fine. get_prop.. functions are generated by a macro
2019-11-15T23:35:53Z jeosol: I was thinking having to write get_propy and get_propz differently and have them check some simple booleans (i.e., for the copy case, if so, read up the value from X, and multiply by scalar needed). Is there a better way of doing this
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2019-11-16T00:42:25Z dmiles: is it doable yet to embed SBCL into an arbitrary C program yet?
2019-11-16T00:43:17Z dmiles: to embed the SBCL Repl that is
2019-11-16T00:43:31Z oni-on-ion: it looks like there is libsbcl.so now
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2019-11-16T00:43:51Z pjb: dmiles: it has been done.
2019-11-16T00:44:13Z oni-on-ion: i see in the change notes for 1.5.8
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2019-11-16T00:46:49Z dmiles: ahah. thx both i am now looking at https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/runtime/runtime.c  it might link agaisnt libsbcl.so
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2019-11-16T00:54:39Z dmiles: i wonder is someones made SBCL ebed from oter languages liek Python or whatnot
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2019-11-16T00:54:59Z dmiles: embed*
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2019-11-16T01:03:51Z dmiles: my google fu is faling me at finding an exmape of where someone embadded SBCL
2019-11-16T01:04:37Z dmiles: hah "Feb 26, 2019 - I see http://sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Calling-Lisp-From-C, but it doesn't ... because I want to have sbcl and perl6 both as scripting languages."
2019-11-16T01:04:41Z dmiles: there we go :)
2019-11-16T01:05:38Z oni-on-ion: ah you found it? cool =) i am interested in embedding sbcl last year but have not looked into it
2019-11-16T01:05:44Z dmiles: well that contain more info than i know before but still not good enough
2019-11-16T01:06:12Z dmiles: that link is more for once you embeded it this is what you could do
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2019-11-16T01:07:04Z dmiles: or "if lisp called your FFI .. your FFI can call lisp back using this method"
2019-11-16T01:07:36Z dmiles: oni-on-ion: so not found it yet
2019-11-16T01:08:40Z oni-on-ion: ahh, right. extra steps
2019-11-16T01:08:54Z oni-on-ion: i had begun to look at various schemes for this reason
2019-11-16T01:09:01Z oni-on-ion: (the reason of embedding)
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2019-11-16T01:11:35Z dmiles: supposedly we jsut have to build it like nonmral and then copy src/runtime/runtime.c  to myapp.c
2019-11-16T01:12:05Z dmiles: then work to gettign to where we can compile myapp.c
2019-11-16T01:14:04Z dmiles: then for SWI-prolog i switch myapp.c  to compiling to   myloadable.so.c
2019-11-16T01:15:48Z dmiles: having SWI's  forign_library_init()   call al that monkey business of sbcl_main() but not have ot go to the REPL
2019-11-16T01:17:12Z dmiles: just been nice to know if the sbcl team ensured that this was not broken thinking
2019-11-16T01:20:20Z oni-on-ion: ohh, cool. i remember seeing some of that file runtime.c
2019-11-16T01:20:40Z oni-on-ion: i had some C code that was ready to embed in several things, prolog ocaml lisp
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2019-11-16T01:22:47Z dmiles: you should github it
2019-11-16T01:23:12Z dmiles: and you/me others can work on making it work for SBCL
2019-11-16T01:23:41Z dmiles: but be nice to integrate whatever you had
2019-11-16T01:23:53Z dmiles: i cna make sure SWI-Prolgo cna dynamcally load it
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2019-11-16T01:26:57Z oni-on-ion: ah it was mostly custom code for a thing i was working on, its really too specific to be useful to anyone else's code
2019-11-16T01:27:17Z oni-on-ion: however i notice that emacs has a lot of "stubs". even a large one for ocaml (called Ecaml) by jane street
2019-11-16T01:27:56Z oni-on-ion: there is a somewhat comprehensive one for erlang as well. just thinking that if emacs is most of our (freenode) dev hubs, may as well look toward there
2019-11-16T01:28:58Z dmiles: ebmedding ELisp ?
2019-11-16T01:29:03Z dmiles: neat
2019-11-16T01:30:22Z oni-on-ion: yea =) and also with guile there; what i am imagining is that one could prototype in emacs, with all native tools (graphics libs, etc etc) and then migrate to a native implementation and platform of whatever one fancies
2019-11-16T01:30:47Z dmiles: well i have two versions of common lisp that is accessable callable from Prolog .. its jsut hte SBCL-philism i wanted to please
2019-11-16T01:31:38Z dmiles: like we can call ABCL via SWI-Prolog's JPL interface
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2019-11-16T01:31:58Z LdBeth: Why not just use IPC
2019-11-16T01:32:22Z dmiles: [17:36] <dmiles> ?- cl_eval('*DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS*',X).
2019-11-16T01:32:22Z dmiles: [17:36] <PrologMUD> % X='"/home/larkc_server/platform/"'
2019-11-16T01:32:50Z dmiles: LdBeth: some of the datastrcutures are too heavy to keep marshalling over IPC
2019-11-16T01:34:22Z LdBeth: But FFI won’t make data marshaling easier by itself
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2019-11-16T01:38:24Z dmiles: well plan on calling SBCL a bit more intimately than FFI
2019-11-16T01:38:30Z dmiles: see line 1094 of https://pastebin.com/zu3iDR9V
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2019-11-16T01:38:58Z dmiles: this is an ECL based version
2019-11-16T01:39:23Z dmiles: so that deep unification hooks get intalled into the prolgo VM
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2019-11-16T01:40:44Z dmiles: tihs of copurse means the structs of SBCL need some pinning in memory
2019-11-16T01:41:31Z dmiles: so this is assuming libsbcl.so allows us
2019-11-16T01:42:26Z oni-on-ion: ideally, sbcl itself should just be runtime.c + libsbcl.so
2019-11-16T01:44:25Z dmiles: thats right.. i jsut hoping someone will say thqt to us so it is orth the time knowing when if it doesnt work i can blame myself
2019-11-16T01:45:35Z dmiles: liek "Oh damn.. i just needed to call pthread_register_self or somesuch
2019-11-16T01:46:04Z dmiles: or "oops my app alreay was stealing stderr
2019-11-16T01:46:32Z LdBeth: So SWI has issues embedding in other languages?
2019-11-16T01:46:58Z oni-on-ion: hehe. =)
2019-11-16T01:47:12Z dmiles: i know all the workarround embeddng other languages in SWI
2019-11-16T01:47:32Z dmiles: oh i get your poke.. no .. it is that SBCL isnt know ot embed
2019-11-16T01:48:09Z dmiles: my C App in in Unity3D that starts SWI-prolog
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2019-11-16T01:48:36Z dmiles: maybe SBCL can start unity3d/mono
2019-11-16T01:48:37Z LdBeth: Sorry to hear that
2019-11-16T01:48:43Z dmiles: hehe
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2019-11-16T01:50:50Z dmiles: oh actually i do see a pathways startign from SBCL.. SBCL can actually call https://github.com/keithj/cl-prolog/blob/master/src/swi/swi-prolog-ffi.lisp#L53   to regiusgter its most sensitive bits
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2019-11-16T01:51:41Z dmiles: since at least SWI-prolog is capapble of memory managing Unity3D code
2019-11-16T01:52:16Z dmiles: (i mena to Say  SBCL -> SWI-Prolog -> inits Unity3D
2019-11-16T01:52:33Z oni_on_ion: )
2019-11-16T01:52:52Z dmiles: which at least SWI-prolog can give SBCL superpowers in scripting and linking other languages
2019-11-16T01:53:05Z dmiles: (in this config)
2019-11-16T01:53:47Z oni_on_ion: c+sbcl+swi great combo =)
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2019-11-16T01:55:54Z dmiles: yes :)
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2019-11-16T02:20:56Z clothespin: I have been thinking about asking franz to open source their version of prolog
2019-11-16T02:21:45Z LdBeth: GG
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2019-11-16T02:26:51Z clothespin: I was also thnking to ask them to also release their yacc as open source
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2019-11-16T05:08:06Z jasom: dmiles: signals and mmap are going to be two issues with running two managed runtimes in the same process
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2019-11-16T05:13:36Z dmiles: two being Mono and SBCL?
2019-11-16T05:14:12Z dmiles: (thinking of jsut Signals)
2019-11-16T05:14:46Z dmiles: i know mono uses signals unsparingly
2019-11-16T05:15:12Z dmiles: Swipl most leaves them alone
2019-11-16T05:15:22Z jasom: mono, jvm, I think you said perl at some point, I have no idea how that vm works, but most managed environments want to control one or both of signals and the memory map
2019-11-16T05:17:22Z dmiles: *nod* thankfully the only two apps i am using only use  sbcl+Swipl+mono  and JVM stuff is goign thru IKVM
2019-11-16T05:17:52Z dmiles: oops two apps  =  1) sbcl+Swipl+mono     2) sbcl+Swipl+mono+ikvm
2019-11-16T05:18:26Z dmiles: yeah the memeory moves all over the place uncontrolled in mono
2019-11-16T05:21:32Z dmiles: well up to certain point.. i have to keep a small dictionary here  https://github.com/swi-to-yap/swicli/blob/master/src/Swicli.Library/Tracker.cs#L255-L297
2019-11-16T05:22:35Z dmiles: this tracks "Dynamic Extent" of Prolog Blobs
2019-11-16T05:23:16Z dmiles: but i dont know what it will be like trying to fiddle with Conses from SBCL
2019-11-16T05:23:32Z dmiles: (or anyhting from SBCL)
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2019-11-16T06:17:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-16T06:18:49Z Josh_2: Mornin beach
2019-11-16T06:19:04Z loke: Hello beach
2019-11-16T06:19:08Z loke: &josh
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2019-11-16T08:49:35Z phoe: heyyyy
2019-11-16T08:50:58Z Josh_2: Mornin
2019-11-16T08:51:36Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning phoe.
2019-11-16T08:57:51Z phoe: Morniiiing
2019-11-16T08:58:51Z no-defun-allowed: How goes it?
2019-11-16T09:02:11Z phoe: Digging into CCL internals and cleaning stuff up now that I have promised rme not to screw it up.
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2019-11-16T09:03:28Z no-defun-allowed: Good luck with that.
2019-11-16T09:03:56Z phoe: Thanks. Wish me patience instead of luck though - the CCL codebase requires the former much more than the latter.
2019-11-16T09:05:02Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. I hope you have enough patience too.
2019-11-16T09:05:12Z phoe: <3
2019-11-16T09:05:43Z no-defun-allowed passes a jar of patience
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2019-11-16T09:24:13Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: we're talking about CCL, not ABCL
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2019-11-16T09:34:17Z phoe: Shinmera: take a look at CCL codebase and try to tell me that it don't require no patience
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2019-11-16T09:34:32Z Shinmera: the joke was about the jar
2019-11-16T09:34:40Z phoe: oh
2019-11-16T09:34:46Z phoe: I didn't even recognize it
2019-11-16T09:36:53Z no-defun-allowed: Shinmera: Now I'm going to fork CCL so all the FASL files have the JAR file type.
2019-11-16T09:37:05Z aeth: I think we're overlooking the most important word in the statement, though: of
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2019-11-16T09:37:41Z ck_: which statement?
2019-11-16T09:38:12Z no-defun-allowed passes a fasl of patience as well
2019-11-16T09:39:20Z ck_: a .slol would contain more patience I think
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2019-11-16T09:53:46Z MichaelRaskin: A SLOL _consumes_ patience instead of replenishing it
2019-11-16T09:55:17Z no-defun-allowed: A sweet little old lady? Probably would kill your patience if she couldn't open her Internet.
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2019-11-16T10:40:12Z beach: minion: What does SLOL stand for?
2019-11-16T10:40:12Z minion: Sumner Lissoflagellate Overregularly Lightheadedly
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2019-11-16T10:40:34Z ck_: ! that's news to me :D thanks, beach
2019-11-16T10:40:50Z beach: minion: What does SICL stand for?
2019-11-16T10:40:50Z minion: Series Invertin Common Lisp
2019-11-16T10:41:13Z ck_: :-) invertin' series since the 21st century
2019-11-16T10:41:15Z no-defun-allowed: 2/4, better than I will probably get for my chemistry exam.
2019-11-16T10:41:27Z phoe: minion: what does minion stand for?
2019-11-16T10:41:27Z minion: Microsclerous Interdictive Nephrocardiac Ideoplastic Ohm Neuroskeletal
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2019-11-16T11:15:59Z Lycurgus: minion: what is an acronym?
2019-11-16T11:16:00Z minion: what would a bot like me know about an acronym ?
2019-11-16T11:16:18Z no-defun-allowed: minion: what is a bot?
2019-11-16T11:16:18Z minion: i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''.
2019-11-16T11:16:31Z no-defun-allowed: 🤔
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2019-11-16T11:17:07Z Lycurgus: minion: what is your deadname?
2019-11-16T11:17:07Z minion: what would a bot like me know about my deadname ?
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2019-11-16T11:18:36Z no-defun-allowed: Lycurgus: If you know the deadname of a bot, you have complete power over it.
2019-11-16T11:19:01Z no-defun-allowed: Or maybe that's genies. One of those.
2019-11-16T11:20:06Z Lycurgus: sfaik, none of them has even a try at an actual conversational agent capability or anything more than crude token parsing
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2019-11-16T11:22:06Z pfdietz35: phoe: defsetf.7a is fine, because the effect of the defsetf form will have taken effect before the eval form is evaluated.
2019-11-16T11:22:32Z pfdietz35: That's the reason the eval is there, to ensure that ordering.
2019-11-16T11:24:31Z phoe: pfdietz35: therefore I do not understand why the test fails even though the test forms succeed when evaluated outside the test.
2019-11-16T11:24:58Z pfdietz35: Which lisp is it failing in?
2019-11-16T11:25:46Z phoe: CCL Linux amd64
2019-11-16T11:25:53Z pfdietz35: You might want to check what *package* is bound to, as that would affect the read.
2019-11-16T11:26:14Z phoe: Must *PACKAGE* be bound to a particular value? I execute (do-tests) from #<PACKAGE "RT">.
2019-11-16T11:27:28Z phoe: See https://travis-ci.com/phoe-trash/ccl/jobs/257228808#L2318 for the failure log
2019-11-16T11:27:35Z phoe: See https://github.com/phoe-trash/ccl/blob/cleanup/.travis-ansi-test.lisp for how I invoke the tests.
2019-11-16T11:28:58Z phoe: I thought that (rt:do-tests) can be executed even from CL-USER and that it does any *PACKAGE* bindings on its own.
2019-11-16T11:30:30Z phoe: As a side note - what is the passage in the spec that justifies ANSI-TEST upgraded-array-element-type.nil.1 ?
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2019-11-16T11:34:02Z phoe: Or rather, that (u-a-e-t nil) must be nil?
2019-11-16T11:34:40Z pfdietz35: That follows from (1) T1 being a subtype of T2 implies uaet(t1) is a subtype of uaet(t2), (2) uaet(bit) being bit, and (3) uaet(character) being character.
2019-11-16T11:35:12Z pfdietz35: nil is a subtype of bit and character, so uaet(nil) must also be.  But the only type that is a subtype of both is nil.
2019-11-16T11:40:54Z phoe: pfdietz35: thanks. I'll allow myself to add your comment to the file above the test body, so the next person who looks for the explanation finds it there.
2019-11-16T11:42:54Z pfdietz35: Probably a good idea
2019-11-16T11:45:50Z phoe: pfdietz35: done and MR'd. Thanks.
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2019-11-16T11:49:53Z phoe: I assume that it is legal to create an array of element-type NIL, but it is illegal to access any of its elements. Am I correct?
2019-11-16T11:50:32Z phoe: Illegal, as in, has undefined consequences.
2019-11-16T11:51:47Z pfdietz35: Right
2019-11-16T11:52:34Z pfdietz35: So they are useless, and it's reasonable for an implementation to say "nope, not going to implement that part of the standard".
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2019-11-16T11:53:15Z phoe: I also assume that (array-element-type (make-array 10 :element-type nil)) must return NIL.
2019-11-16T11:53:26Z pfdietz35: There are several notes in ansi-test related to this nil array stuff.
2019-11-16T11:53:34Z pfdietz35: see notes.lsp
2019-11-16T11:54:59Z phoe: Yes, I see them. Thanks.
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2019-11-16T12:29:26Z pfdietz35: Yes, that should return NIL.
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2019-11-16T12:35:17Z phoe: Is there an ANSI-TEST for that somewhere?
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2019-11-16T12:39:34Z pfdietz35: I don't think so?  Let me confirm that the standard absolutely requires it...
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2019-11-16T12:41:57Z pfdietz35: I think I left that out for reasons of controversy.
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2019-11-16T12:44:04Z phoe: I'd rather add such a test there with an :ansi-spec-controversy note than leave it out. ANSI-TEST already has a fair share of controversial stuff in it.
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2019-11-16T13:40:13Z pjb: dmiles: see https://www.xach.com/lisp/lispvan-2008-02-28.pdf
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2019-11-16T14:12:18Z pfdietz35: Hmm.  Extracting debug information into CL.  I know there's an ELF library; but is there a DWARF library for CL?
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2019-11-16T14:15:18Z oni-on-ion: maybe with Clasp ?
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2019-11-16T14:17:51Z p_l: you don't need clasp
2019-11-16T14:17:58Z p_l: might be even counter-productive
2019-11-16T14:18:18Z p_l: you need access to right stdlibc++ to demangle symbols though
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2019-11-16T14:18:45Z oni-on-ion: it was a maybe
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2019-11-16T14:18:54Z p_l: as for DWARF, you can use libdwarf to start, or you could write a DWARF interpreter. I think one Scheme ended up having one and some people even tried to use it for bindings
2019-11-16T14:19:03Z p_l: of course requires that the code has debug data
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2019-11-16T14:36:29Z Shinmera: The Clasp people were looking into wrangling DWARF a while back at least
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2019-11-16T14:48:12Z dmiles: pjb: you mean because i am calling a c program that calls back to lisp?
2019-11-16T14:48:35Z dmiles: (why to look at that pdf)
2019-11-16T14:50:06Z dmiles: also i am doing "Hack SBCL's foreign function linkage table to point foo at foo-lisp " :)
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2019-11-16T15:27:52Z pjb: dmiles: this is an example of how you can merge sbcl with a C program. Load the C binary into sbcl.
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2019-11-16T15:53:46Z Kabriel: Shinmera: what is the difference (high-level) between alloy and mcclim?
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2019-11-16T16:10:00Z Shinmera: I don't know if I know enough about clim to answer that question.
2019-11-16T16:10:19Z Shinmera: They're very different protocols though, so building UIs is going to be different.
2019-11-16T16:10:58Z Shinmera: As far as I understand CLIM does not have things out of the box that I worried about for Alloy from the beginning, such as resolution scaling and detached focus hierarchies.
2019-11-16T16:12:53Z Shinmera: I hope someone with CLIM experience will take a look at some point so that that question can be answered better :)
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2019-11-16T16:14:12Z Kabriel: In my very limited understanding, if I wanted to program a GUI interface, I could use CLIM for that. Could I also do that using Alloy?
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2019-11-16T16:14:30Z Shinmera: Uh, they're both UI toolkits, so yes?
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2019-11-16T16:47:58Z phoe: blasted floating point bugs
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2019-11-16T16:49:10Z phoe: on some Linux dists on CCL 32-bit (tan (coerce (/ pi 4) 'single-float)) gives me 1.0 and on some other it gives me 1.0000001
2019-11-16T16:53:39Z beach: phoe: Have you taken on the maintenance of CCL?
2019-11-16T16:57:40Z phoe: beach: nope, but I've decided to spend some time on getting it into a better shape overall.
2019-11-16T16:58:02Z beach: I see.
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2019-11-16T17:00:57Z beach: phoe: Is rme not working on it anymore?
2019-11-16T17:01:05Z phoe: beach: he is, yes!
2019-11-16T17:01:17Z beach: Whew!
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2019-11-16T17:05:38Z phoe: I'm just helping with things.
2019-11-16T17:06:16Z beach: That's great!
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2019-11-16T17:29:16Z PuercoPope: Xach: would you consider adding an :interactive keyword argument to ql:add-to-init-file so it can be used when installing quicklisp on a CI?
2019-11-16T17:32:22Z easye: phoe: Thanks for helping out with CCL.  I'd could help getting a new release working on freebsd/macos
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2019-11-16T17:37:48Z _death: PuercoPope: check out ql-util:without-prompting
2019-11-16T17:38:46Z phoe: PuercoPope: https://github.com/phoe-trash/furcadia-post-splitter/blob/master/.travis.yml#L59
2019-11-16T17:38:54Z PuercoPope: _death: will do, thanks
2019-11-16T17:39:45Z phoe: easye: no problem. I have no freebsd environment myself just yet and I'm trying to get and squash some bugs first in order to actually gain some knowledge about how CCL works internally.
2019-11-16T17:40:08Z PuercoPope: phoe: is update all dists necessary on a freshly installed quicklisp? I'm using builds.sr.ht btw
2019-11-16T17:40:13Z phoe: If you want some help, please throw issues at CCL's issue tracker - I'll try to investigate them in a spare while.
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2019-11-16T17:40:43Z phoe: PuercoPope: I have absolutely no idea. I do it out of habit and I guess that, in the worst case, I'm redundant.
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2019-11-16T17:42:29Z easye: phoe: freebsd is a bit esoteric, but it would be nice to start with getting a newer version than ccl-1.11 into MacPorts.  Finding bootstrap compiler images seems more difficult now that they are no longer available in svn.
2019-11-16T17:43:05Z PuercoPope: phoe: I should acquire that habit, I tend to update quicklisp dists about once a year ^_^
2019-11-16T17:43:08Z easye: I saw that Clozure was updated in the Apple Store the other week, so maybe everything is somoothing out.
2019-11-16T17:43:35Z phoe: easye: you could try to use builds.sr.ht as well for CI on FreeBSD - drew provides freebsd VMs for that.
2019-11-16T17:43:45Z phoe: Travis only has darwin/linux/windows.
2019-11-16T17:44:05Z easye: phoe: check.
2019-11-16T17:44:33Z phoe: You could perhaps modify the travis script I have in my fork of CCL's repository at github.com/phoe-trash/ccl
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2019-11-16T17:47:25Z easye: phoe: Thanks.  I will take a look, but honestly I probably don't have spare time for ccl until I get abcl-1.6.0 out the door.  Hopefully before Thanksgiving.
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2019-11-16T17:47:48Z phoe: easye: good luck with that!
2019-11-16T17:48:01Z easye: In any event, I have to dash out into the Fall Vienna evening right now, so I bid you farewell for bit.
2019-11-16T17:48:09Z phoe: Have you checked if it is it possible to bootstrap 1.11.5 from 1.11?
2019-11-16T17:48:23Z phoe: If yes, then the bootstrap path should be somewhat clean. If not, then we're in for more trouble.
2019-11-16T17:48:26Z easye waves.
2019-11-16T17:48:29Z phoe: See you!
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2019-11-16T22:54:32Z phoe: 12.1.4.3 says that "An error of type floating-point-overflow or floating-point-underflow should be signaled if a floating-point computation causes exponent overflow or underflow, respectively."
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2019-11-16T22:55:30Z phoe: CCL currently defaults to not signaling underflow errors, unless (ccl:set-fpu-mode :underflow t) is explicitly evaluated. Is this conformant?
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2019-11-16T22:56:03Z Bike: prolly not, but a couple implementations have switches, which is technically nonconformant i guess
2019-11-16T22:57:49Z Shinmera: they should be on by default
2019-11-16T22:57:59Z Shinmera: float-features already provides a portable way to turn them on
2019-11-16T22:58:03Z Shinmera: *turn them off
2019-11-16T22:58:10Z phoe: What does "should" mean in this case? Why doesn't the spec say "must" in this case?
2019-11-16T22:58:24Z Shinmera: I'm saying should as in, it's the right thing to do, regardless of spec.
2019-11-16T22:58:26Z Bike: oh, that's uh, that one section early on
2019-11-16T22:58:52Z Bike: "An error should be signaled: This means that an error is signaled in safe code, and an error might be signaled in unsafe code."
2019-11-16T22:58:58Z Bike: in clhs 1.4.2
2019-11-16T22:59:00Z phoe: Shinmera: I know and I agree with you, I just need to figure out what the scriptures say on the matter
2019-11-16T22:59:06Z White_Flame: SBCL doesn't seem to signal underflow by default either
2019-11-16T22:59:15Z White_Flame: just returns 0.0
2019-11-16T22:59:21Z Bike: i guess you could try it in safe code and see
2019-11-16T22:59:24Z Bike: prolly the same tho
2019-11-16T22:59:30Z phoe: seems the same
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2019-11-16T23:01:07Z phoe: the question is whether this behaviour is actually sane
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2019-11-16T23:01:33Z phoe: because it does seem to be sane to *not* signal underflows by default
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2019-11-16T23:03:19Z Bike: i think it's perfectly sane, but nt allowed by a strict reading
2019-11-16T23:04:11Z jmercouris: what is 'safe' code?
2019-11-16T23:04:21Z jmercouris: is it a code wrapped in a handler or something?
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2019-11-16T23:06:28Z oni-on-ion: non-executed kind
2019-11-16T23:06:51Z oni-on-ion: no cause, no effect! =)
2019-11-16T23:06:52Z phoe: jmercouris: safe code is code compiled with (optimize safety)
2019-11-16T23:07:03Z jmercouris: phoe: Ah, I see
2019-11-16T23:07:04Z phoe: Bike: I think it's sane and purposefully non-conforming
2019-11-16T23:07:36Z phoe: and at this code an ANSI-TEST note might be warranted for implementations that purposefully do not conform to that part of the spec and do not error with underflows by default
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2019-11-16T23:54:31Z Xach catches up on quicklisp project issues
2019-11-16T23:54:41Z Xach: i feel a new release coming soon!
2019-11-16T23:55:09Z phoe: :O !!!!
2019-11-16T23:55:47Z no-defun-allowed: it's the most wonderful time of the month (or thereabouts)
2019-11-16T23:55:47Z pfdietz35: "An error of type floating-point-overflow or floating-point-underflow should be signaled if a floating-point computation causes exponent overflow or underflow, respectively.
2019-11-16T23:55:48Z pfdietz35: "
2019-11-16T23:55:50Z pfdietz35: Hmm.
2019-11-16T23:56:45Z pfdietz35: But then for the arithmetic operations themselves it's all "Might signal".
2019-11-16T23:57:21Z phoe: Hmm.
2019-11-16T23:57:29Z phoe: So it is a contradiction, should versus might?
2019-11-16T23:58:02Z phoe: If yes, then also :ANSI-SPEC-PROBLEM that is.
2019-11-16T23:58:30Z pfdietz35: Looks like it.
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2019-11-17T00:06:02Z phoe: pfdietz35: offtopic question, what happened to the previous 34 pfdietzes?
2019-11-17T00:06:41Z _death: just (setf *pfdietz-counter* 0)
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2019-11-17T00:15:48Z pjb: It may be more complex than that. I'd (reset-pfdietz-counter).
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2019-11-17T00:17:53Z ManyQuestionsPer: Hi all, I am new to lisp and slime, and I am trying to do something that I thought would be simple to do but does not seem to work
2019-11-17T00:18:05Z ManyQuestionsPer: I have set a breakpoint (break) inside a function, and when I call a top-level function that calls my target function with the break, the SLDB frame correctly pops uphowever, when I go back to the repl, I am unable to evaluate expressions within my target functionI would have thought that would work easily out of the box with Emacs, SBCL and
2019-11-17T00:18:06Z ManyQuestionsPer: slimeIs there a way of doing this?
2019-11-17T00:18:33Z Bike: if you hit 'e' in sldb, you should be albe to evaluate things in a particular frame
2019-11-17T00:19:56Z ManyQuestionsPer: Woohooo! Thanks. Muchas Gracias. That worked!
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2019-11-17T00:20:56Z pjb: ManyQuestionsPer: try that with clisp!  see: https://cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger
2019-11-17T00:22:43Z ManyQuestionsPer: @pjb .Thanks will do
2019-11-17T00:23:36Z pjb: ManyQuestionsPer: This doesn't work on irc.  Use the syntax: <nick>: <message>
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2019-11-17T00:24:23Z gendl: So if I have the following function:
2019-11-17T00:24:35Z gendl: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/UgR0VBD5/
2019-11-17T00:24:57Z pfdietz35: That number Is because I'm logged into freenode from a different machine under the name pfdietz.   It tacks on a random two digit value to make another name.
2019-11-17T00:25:23Z gendl: if I then evaluate (try1) at the repl, it gives me an *sldb ... *
2019-11-17T00:25:28Z gendl: with the following:
2019-11-17T00:25:43Z gendl: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/rWbGvqxt/
2019-11-17T00:26:08Z gendl: How should I proceed in order to evaluate a and b as bound by my let form?
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2019-11-17T00:29:06Z gendl: hitting 'e' next to 0: (break)  or 1: (try1)  gives me an `Eval in frame (<package>)> ' prompt in minibuffer - but typing a or b at that prompt results in `Attempt to take the value of unbound variable `a'. '
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2019-11-17T00:29:52Z gendl: yes, i prepended a or b with the package that `try1' is defined in
2019-11-17T00:30:25Z phoe: gendl: try evaling it in the (break) frame maybe
2019-11-17T00:30:34Z Xach: In SBCL, the locals are not available unless you compile with high debug. I do that with C-u C-c C-c.
2019-11-17T00:30:55Z phoe: the (try1) frame might be toplevel of try1 and that is where the local variables are not present
2019-11-17T00:31:00Z phoe: or maybe I get it all wrong, hm
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2019-11-17T00:34:32Z gendl: Xach: Ha, yep that works in SBCL after compiling with C-u C-c C-c
2019-11-17T00:35:05Z gendl: Was in Allegro previously, was not working there..
2019-11-17T00:35:22Z gendl: SBCL also gives a slightly different backtrace:
2019-11-17T00:35:37Z gendl: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/lUu4L9SH/
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2019-11-17T00:36:57Z gendl: the actual call to (break) doesn't show up in the backtrace in SBCL.  But hitting 'e' on 0: (try1) gives an 'Eval in frame' minibuffer prompt, conveniently already defaulting to the correct package, and evaluating a or b works there as expected.
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2019-11-17T00:43:57Z gendl: i've been using this stuff for years and have barely scratched the surface of slime functionality.. :|
2019-11-17T00:44:24Z Xach: I have never used eval-in-frame - I only toggle the local variable view in the frame
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2019-11-17T00:49:37Z gendl: Oh. How to toggle the local variable view?
2019-11-17T00:50:34Z Xach: t on a frame
2019-11-17T00:50:46Z Xach: In sbcl, only shows locals on high debug...
2019-11-17T00:53:22Z gendl: 👍🙏
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2019-11-17T03:36:46Z vms14: guys, I want to make a function to move some character when I receive input events. I'm using clx and I'll receive one event once the player press a key and another when he relases the key.
2019-11-17T03:37:04Z vms14: the thing is, I want to create another function to stop moving once I receive the release event
2019-11-17T03:37:34Z vms14: I should make two functions inside a let sharing one symbol, using this symbols as a condition for a loop?
2019-11-17T03:37:42Z vms14: a global symbol, or how?
2019-11-17T03:38:47Z vms14: I mean, making the stop function change the value of some symbol that the move function uses as a condition of a loop
2019-11-17T03:38:55Z vms14: there is a better approach?
2019-11-17T03:40:57Z vms14: oh, I don't really need it I guess. I should receive more key events until the user releases the key, so the condition just needs to be the key events
2019-11-17T03:41:31Z LdBeth: Does it?
2019-11-17T03:42:26Z vms14: yes I receive events as long as the user is pressing a key
2019-11-17T03:42:27Z vms14: so nvm
2019-11-17T03:42:28Z vms14: xD
2019-11-17T03:43:54Z vms14: clx is much easier to use than the c xlib library <3
2019-11-17T03:45:02Z drmeister: I used displaced arrays for the first time today!
2019-11-17T03:45:48Z drmeister: I'm building a complicated state machine and I want all of the state in packed into one vector.
2019-11-17T03:48:20Z drmeister: I feel like I should get a ribbon or something. :-)
2019-11-17T03:49:42Z vms14 gives a ribbon and a badge to drmeister for whatever is he doing
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2019-11-17T03:50:01Z vms14: Congratulations!
2019-11-17T03:52:03Z LdBeth: drmeister: then you could build a parallel version out of it
2019-11-17T03:52:29Z LdBeth Congratulations!
2019-11-17T03:52:31Z drmeister: vms14: Thank you
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2019-11-17T03:52:54Z vms14: drmeister: np you deserve it :D
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2019-11-17T04:26:05Z PuercoPope: vms14: It depends on how you want to structure your main loop, a global variable works fine if its the 'main' character. You could also toggle a slot in the character class from :moving/:up/:left/etc to :stop and vice versa that controls what your main loop does with character on each tick
2019-11-17T04:29:08Z PuercoPope: phoe: Got everything the CI running using your example as a guideline. Now I need to update the test command to set its exit status according to the outcome of the test https://builds.sr.ht/~puercopop/job/110265
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2019-11-17T04:45:05Z vms14: PuercoPope: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/QTXQNyqq42/ this is what I have
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2019-11-17T04:45:48Z vms14: I'm thinking about how I should make the main loop move the random enemies I'll have and moving objects like a bullet
2019-11-17T04:47:20Z vms14: should I have a list of those objects wanting to move? What I have in mind is to have a list of elements wanting to move and every element should say the direction it wants to move at this moment, then iterate in that list and move every object/enemy at one point, because I cannot move entirely something without blocking the loop and having to finish that movement
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2019-11-17T05:08:19Z PuercoPope: Any reason why you aren't using cl-sdl2+sdl2kit instead? It seems better suited for your use case. But to answer your question yeah having a list of 'active' objects is an ok strategy. You shouldn't use event-case but instead define a more general event loop which checks for X11 events to process but also 'ticks' the game. The CLX manual has some info on how to do that iirc
2019-11-17T05:19:08Z vms14: PuercoPope: I'll look about how to retrieve events manually, I use clx because I've learned Xlib with C and clx is just the same stuff but much better, I consider sdl, but I'm not able to use it in NetBSD because I don't know how to make the library look at the correct path, since it's different from the linux one
2019-11-17T05:19:40Z vms14: also I'm masochist and I like xlib
2019-11-17T05:19:42Z vms14: xD
2019-11-17T05:24:49Z PuercoPope: vms14: the eclipse WM has an example of how to integrate CLX into your own event loop if you want to look at an example
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2019-11-17T05:28:37Z vms14: PuercoPope: I didn't know it existed, thanks, I wanted to use stumpwm because it was written in lisp, but I'm used to a stacking wm and use a tiling one is a pain for me, I'll take a look at this one
2019-11-17T05:29:35Z vms14: https://common-lisp.net/project/eclipse/screenshots.shtml
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2019-11-17T05:40:48Z vms14: found it at https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/eclipse/eclipse/blob/master/wm.lisp thanks PuercoPope <3
2019-11-17T05:44:55Z vms14: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/eclipse/eclipse/blob/master/lib/clx-ext/event.lisp *
2019-11-17T05:46:47Z PuercoPope: You can find an ASDF loadeable version at https://github.com/LispLima/eclipse
2019-11-17T05:54:57Z vms14: thanks, I've also found you in linkedin :D
2019-11-17T05:58:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-17T09:32:50Z phoe: drmeister: Congratulations!
2019-11-17T09:34:01Z beach: phoe: So when are you going to write a Cleavir-based compiler for CCL? :)
2019-11-17T09:34:33Z phoe: PuercoPope: <3 Try also using XFVB to get an X server on your CI, https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/gui-and-headless-browsers/
2019-11-17T09:35:54Z phoe: beach: as soon as I understand how does CCL's own compiler work. I think I mostly got the part that parses Lisp code into an IR that CCL calls "acode" and that then gets stuffed into a backend for a particular platform - the latter, it's magic to me.
2019-11-17T09:36:42Z phoe: PuercoPope: I see that your test failures are because of the DISPLAY variable not being set - in that case, do set it, and set it to a meaningful value that responds to an actual X server running on your VM. That is what XFVB is for.
2019-11-17T09:36:47Z beach: Maybe you should do one step at a time, and start by replacing the CCL reader by Eclector. :)
2019-11-17T09:37:09Z phoe: s/XFVB/XVFB/
2019-11-17T09:37:51Z phoe: beach: my first step is squashing ansi-test bugs. Once that's done, I will think of that and possibly try doing it on a separate branch.
2019-11-17T09:38:22Z beach: phoe: I am half joking.  It is not clear that such radical changes are feasible.
2019-11-17T09:39:12Z beach: Though, CCL is another implementation that is written mainly in Common Lisp, so it would be a better candidate for that kind of stuff than the implementations written in C or C++.
2019-11-17T09:39:18Z makomo: morning
2019-11-17T09:40:24Z phoe: makomo: morning
2019-11-17T09:40:31Z makomo: \o
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2019-11-17T09:41:51Z phoe: beach: I know you are half joking, but maybe it's possible. If anything, one could at least introduce a decent mechanism that allows one to utilize a different implementation of #'READ than the built-in one.
2019-11-17T09:44:48Z beach: phoe: Well, my goal with SICL has always been partly to cut down on the global maintenance burden for maintainers of Common Lisp implementations.  But I realized from the start that these maintainers would be reluctant to ditching their code in favor of the portable one.
2019-11-17T09:45:13Z beach: phoe: Your idea *increases* rather than decreases the maintenance burden.
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2019-11-17T09:45:53Z phoe: beach: yes, I'm aware. That's exactly why I've mentioned a separate branch. (:
2019-11-17T09:46:07Z beach: I see, yes.
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2019-11-17T10:54:54Z phoe: Can a logical pathname be EQUAL to a pathname that isn't logical?
2019-11-17T10:58:57Z phoe: Or rather
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2019-11-17T10:59:10Z phoe: Can a logical pathname be EQUAL to a physical pathname?
2019-11-17T11:02:59Z MichaelRaskin: It looks like the standard allows this.
2019-11-17T11:03:12Z MichaelRaskin: But maybe I am wrong
2019-11-17T11:04:19Z phoe: I am asking because I am fixing a pathname bug right now. (Sigh.)
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2019-11-17T11:07:34Z easye: I think the EQUAL correspondence will be valid for the CL:TRUENAME of the pathname, and otherwise implementation dependent.
2019-11-17T11:08:22Z phoe: Yes - I need the concrete passage from the specification though.
2019-11-17T11:09:19Z phoe: I have a CCL situation where *compile-file-pathname* is bound to a logical pathname inside the file being compiled but is a physical pathname outside it.
2019-11-17T11:09:21Z easye: Ah, man.  I'm speaking as an lazy implementer here.  The CLHS is a maze of twisty hyperlinks for me, all alike in different ways.
2019-11-17T11:09:29Z phoe: :D
2019-11-17T11:09:44Z phoe: And CCL tells me that the two are not equal to each other. Which fails the test.
2019-11-17T11:10:06Z phoe: So either the two should be able to be equal to each other, or they should be both logical or both physical.
2019-11-17T11:10:46Z easye: CL:*LOAD-TRUENAME* should be were the comparison is made.  Or the CL:TRUENAME of CL:*COMPILE-FILE-PATHNAME* for that instance of a compilation phase.
2019-11-17T11:11:23Z easye: A logical pathname is sort of a predicate that you bind at runtime to work with "reified" CL:PATHNAMEs
2019-11-17T11:11:55Z easye: phoe: but maybe you are testing part of the compiler itself?
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2019-11-17T11:12:44Z easye waves to Michael.
2019-11-17T11:13:45Z phoe: easye: I am testing ANSI-TEST compile-file.16
2019-11-17T11:13:49Z phoe: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/248
2019-11-17T11:15:46Z easye studies ANSI-TEST::COMPILE-FILE.16
2019-11-17T11:16:24Z phoe: The contents of the test are inside the issue.
2019-11-17T11:16:56Z easye: Yeah, but need to SLIME it to get to compile-file-test-fun.5
2019-11-17T11:18:01Z phoe: I am lazy that way. I load ANSI-TEST, set up the proper default pathname defaults, (in-package :cl-test) and just evaluate the test body.
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2019-11-17T11:18:40Z easye: Me too.  But I am taking a RSS break from Emacs.  Or at least my development Emacs.
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2019-11-17T11:19:52Z easye: Actually, they all my Emacsen are "development" versions.
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2019-11-17T11:20:17Z MichaelRaskin: The issue is slightly unclear whether it is *compile-file-pathname* that is logical pathname (seems so)
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2019-11-17T11:21:41Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: the CLHS sayz,
2019-11-17T11:21:43Z phoe: The value of *compile-file-pathname* must always be a pathname or nil. The value of *compile-file-truename* must always be a physical pathname or nil.
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2019-11-17T11:22:02Z phoe: so *c-f-p* is allowed to be a physical OR a logical pathname
2019-11-17T11:22:25Z phoe: BUT
2019-11-17T11:22:33Z phoe: During a call to compile-file, *compile-file-pathname* is bound to the pathname denoted by the first argument to compile-file, merged against the defaults.
2019-11-17T11:23:07Z MichaelRaskin: And the result has the same logical-ness as *defualt-pathname-defaults*, right?
2019-11-17T11:23:14Z phoe: The defaults for me are: #P"/home/phoe/Projects/Git/ansi-test/sandbox/"
2019-11-17T11:24:08Z phoe: CLHS on MERGE-PATHNAMES:
2019-11-17T11:24:09Z phoe: merge-pathnames returns a logical pathname if and only if its first argument is a logical pathname, or its first argument is a logical pathname namestring with an explicit host, or its first argument does not specify a host and the default-pathname is a logical pathname.
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2019-11-17T11:25:03Z phoe: First argument is #p"foo.lsp" and therefore has no host; the default is a physical pathname.
2019-11-17T11:25:23Z phoe: So MERGE-PATHNAMES properly returns a physical pathname.
2019-11-17T11:25:39Z phoe: So, inside the compiled file, the value of *c-f-p* is incorrect.
2019-11-17T11:25:49Z MichaelRaskin: So you have physical pathname as *d-p-d* and logical for *c-f-p*
2019-11-17T11:26:02Z phoe: No, both should be physical in that case.
2019-11-17T11:26:23Z phoe: merge-pathnames returns a logical pathname only in three cases, and none of the three cases happen here.
2019-11-17T11:27:33Z MichaelRaskin: Well, should vs. have (but I guess soon to be fixed)
2019-11-17T11:27:47Z phoe: soon™
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2019-11-17T12:00:16Z phoe: annnnnnnnnnnd fixed it seems to be
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2019-11-17T13:11:46Z phoe: (coerce '(1 2 3 4 5 6) '(or (vector t 5) (vector t 10)))
2019-11-17T13:11:53Z phoe: This is supposed to fail with a TYPE-ERROR, is it not?
2019-11-17T13:15:14Z Bike: yes, but that's annoying to check
2019-11-17T13:15:34Z phoe: I see that SBCL ignores this altogether and flips the table as soon as it sees an OR type
2019-11-17T13:15:47Z Bike: and since it's "should be signaled" it only needs to be signaled in safe code
2019-11-17T13:16:27Z phoe: well then, CCL and ECL just obediently return #(1 2 3 4 5 6)
2019-11-17T13:16:58Z phoe: even in safe code
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2019-11-17T13:19:57Z jjkola had a productive weekend, was able to push fixes to a few libraries
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2019-11-17T13:22:05Z jjkola: now I only need to wait for the fixes to be accepted :)
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2019-11-17T13:27:19Z phoe pushes another CCL fix
2019-11-17T13:27:27Z phoe: or let's hope it is a fix
2019-11-17T13:30:11Z phoe: oh yes, that was a majestic failure
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2019-11-17T14:14:16Z galdor: is it me or UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM does not offer the possibility to specify the directory to use as current directory for the subprocess being created ?
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2019-11-17T14:14:50Z ebzzry: Is using Electron as GUI for a desktop app with SBCL inside it feasible, or not?
2019-11-17T14:15:09Z ebzzry: Or is using something like Qtools better instead?
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2019-11-17T14:33:36Z loke: ebzzry: Well, Electron is never a good idea. Regardless of what language you'r eusing.
2019-11-17T14:35:32Z ebzzry: loke: I'm leaning towards the near-native approaches, wherein Lisp controls the GUI. The way I’m desinging the system is that the GUI has access to the engine.
2019-11-17T14:36:06Z loke: Then use a proper GUI framework. Qt, GTK, CLIM, whatever. Anything but Electron
2019-11-17T14:36:11Z ebzzry: I feel like if I go with the Electron route, I lose that. I have to create a bridge that will communicate between JS and CL, which has a performance penalty.
2019-11-17T14:36:23Z ebzzry: Indeed. I tested Qtools (and CommonQT) and it works.
2019-11-17T14:37:38Z ebzzry: My mate saw the slide presentation of Fukamachi at https://www.slideshare.net/fukamachi/building-gui-app-with-electron-and-lisp and I’m having trouble making sense out of it.
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2019-11-17T14:39:40Z beach: ebzzry: I strongly recommend McCLIM.  The people working on it are doing a fantastic job.
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2019-11-17T14:40:14Z ebzzry: beach: In fact, I’m also considering McCLIM.
2019-11-17T14:41:16Z ebzzry: Thank you very much. I want to hear the thoughts of everyone regarding that slideshow, with emphasis on slide 29.
2019-11-17T14:41:17Z dlowe: I tried McCLIM and I couldn't wrap my head around it.
2019-11-17T14:41:52Z beach: dlowe: I am sorry to hear that.
2019-11-17T14:42:21Z dlowe: I don't have that much brain to spare, but I wasn't able to find documentation that made it clear to me.
2019-11-17T14:42:48Z beach: I am not sure what to say to that.
2019-11-17T14:42:55Z pjb: phoe: to be EQUAL two objects must be of the same type. LOGICAL-PATHNAME and PHYSICAL-PATHNAME are different types!
2019-11-17T14:43:17Z dlowe: I'm being careful in not assigning blame :p
2019-11-17T14:43:23Z beach: CLIM is different from other GUI toolkits the way Common Lisp is different from other languages.
2019-11-17T14:43:37Z dlowe: but I needed a CLIM for dummies and I didn't find such a thing.
2019-11-17T14:43:37Z beach: Lots of people can't "wrap their heads around" Common Lisp.
2019-11-17T14:44:19Z beach: dlowe: I can admit that we are behind in McCLIM documentation, and that the most complete document is still the CLIM II specification.
2019-11-17T14:46:38Z phoe: pjb: yes, I understand.
2019-11-17T14:47:58Z pjb: phoe: you may need to define a function such as RESOLVE-TO-SAME-FILE-P  While TRUENAME usually follow symbolic links, there's also the question of hard links!
2019-11-17T14:48:57Z pjb: phoe: a RESOLVE-TO-EQUAL-PHYSICAL-PATHNAME-P  could be practical and sufficient to your need, but while compiling (C), I've already had problems with different paths pointing to the same sources…
2019-11-17T14:51:28Z phoe: pjb: I have seemingly avoided all of this by removing two lines from CCL::%COMPILE-FILE.
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2019-11-17T16:49:20Z phoe: Is there any CL library or implementation function that will help me simplify types as much as possible? I have a compount type such as (not (or (not (cons (eql 0) (real 3d0 3d0))) (not (cons t (eql 0))))) and I would like to make it simpler to parse.
2019-11-17T16:50:23Z pjb: Can't you find that in implementations?
2019-11-17T16:51:03Z phoe: Yes, that's where I am looking right now. The only thing I found in CCL is something that operates on its internal ctype representation, not on CL types.
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2019-11-17T17:06:47Z pfdietz46: SBCL has something like that also.  It's notoriously opaque.
2019-11-17T17:09:01Z pfdietz46: You might want to look at Jim Newton's PhD thesis, which he defended this summer.   https://www.lrde.epita.fr/wiki/Affiche-these-JN
2019-11-17T17:09:34Z beach: Great defense, by the way.
2019-11-17T17:10:35Z pfdietz46: Is the best PhD defense a good PhD offense?  :)
2019-11-17T17:10:52Z beach: Heh.
2019-11-17T17:11:09Z pfdietz46: A concept that's right up there with Contact Bridge
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2019-11-17T17:23:01Z phoe: Is (subtypep '(real -3.0d7 -3.0d7) '(eql -3.0d7)) supposed to be true?
2019-11-17T17:23:14Z phoe reads
2019-11-17T17:23:36Z phoe: Oh yes, this is what I was thinking of
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2019-11-17T17:26:04Z phoe: Or rather, for any real number X, are types (eql X) and (real X X) equivalent?
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2019-11-17T17:26:34Z pfdietz46: They should be the same, yes
2019-11-17T17:26:51Z pfdietz46: Excuse me, no
2019-11-17T17:27:23Z pfdietz46: Because -3 (the integer) is in that interval, but is not EQL to -3.0d7
2019-11-17T17:27:35Z phoe: Oh wait a second
2019-11-17T17:27:41Z pfdietz46: -30000000
2019-11-17T17:27:42Z phoe: REAL also includes integers
2019-11-17T17:27:44Z pfdietz46: I mean
2019-11-17T17:27:47Z phoe: Yes, I see
2019-11-17T17:27:58Z pfdietz46: And also all the different kinds of floats, and ratios
2019-11-17T17:28:41Z phoe: I see
2019-11-17T17:28:59Z pfdietz46: There are also complexities from negative zeros, which are = but not EQL to positive zeros of the same float class
2019-11-17T17:29:30Z phoe: I am digging into subtypep.cons.43 right now
2019-11-17T17:29:44Z phoe: It seems to fail on both SBCL and CCL alike.
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2019-11-17T17:30:39Z pfdietz46: There are open tickets on SBCL involving cons types.
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2019-11-17T17:31:00Z phoe: Yes, I'll either need to fix this up on CCL or create a ticket on CCL as well.
2019-11-17T17:31:49Z pfdietz46: I have a random tester for subtypep that tries various combinations that should be equivalent.   Does that repo have random/random-types.lsp?
2019-11-17T17:32:29Z phoe: nope
2019-11-17T17:33:03Z phoe: the main bug I've found is https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1551#1551
2019-11-17T17:33:29Z phoe: the negation of *type* should not be NIL methinks
2019-11-17T17:34:01Z phoe: because in case it should, then *type* should be equivalent to T
2019-11-17T17:34:08Z phoe: which it is not
2019-11-17T17:34:55Z pfdietz46: It's ok in complicated systems for subtypep to return nil, nil.  Make sure it's not doing that.
2019-11-17T17:35:07Z pfdietz46: complicated situations, I mean
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2019-11-17T17:35:50Z phoe: it returns a truthy secondary value
2019-11-17T17:35:53Z pfdietz46: Ok
2019-11-17T17:35:58Z phoe: so it is convinced that it responded well
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2019-11-17T17:36:04Z phoe: that's a bug to me
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2019-11-17T17:36:37Z pfdietz46: You can find random/random-types.lsp in my ansi-test repo on GitHub.   Let me check if it's public.
2019-11-17T17:36:54Z phoe: let me fix existing bugs first
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2019-11-17T17:37:01Z phoe: then I can go find new ones
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2019-11-17T17:37:46Z pfdietz46: https://github.com/pfdietz/ansi-test.git
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2019-11-17T18:47:54Z pfdietz46: I wonder if Newton's techniques would be useful for optima/trivia matching.
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2019-11-17T20:37:10Z jeosol: morning guys.
2019-11-17T20:37:42Z mooch2: hey
2019-11-17T20:38:08Z jeosol: Is any one using some CL lib for literate programming. I am trying to write some documents, but capture the output of repl -- mostly formatted output, tables, etc. No lisp code
2019-11-17T20:38:14Z mooch2: um, i'm currently trying to write a multi-system emulator in common lisp, starting with the nes. is anybody interested in maybe helping me?
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2019-11-17T21:27:46Z rumbler31: jeosol: wdym
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2019-11-17T21:30:01Z jeosol: rumbler31: I am trying to create some blog post using markdown and export everything to html. I would like to capture output of my program that's dumped to the repl. I do that manually, but wondering if there are automated techniques like using org-model + babel (not an expert in this but seen a few videos)
2019-11-17T21:31:00Z rumbler31: well when you say automated, what do you mean
2019-11-17T21:31:08Z rumbler31: like you type up your whole post in the repl?
2019-11-17T21:31:25Z Josh_2:  instead of outputting repl output to another stream?
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2019-11-17T21:32:30Z jeosol: rumbler31: not what I mean. I mean like certain outputs just go to certain sections of the markdown documents. The example I cited (some YT tutorial) captures shell or python output from code blocks or something.
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2019-11-17T21:38:05Z rumbler31: I must have missed what you cited, can you link me?
2019-11-17T21:39:20Z pjb: jeosol: yes, I'm using the CL library to do literate programming.  The CL library contains the operator #| that introduces text, and |# that introduces code.
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2019-11-17T21:40:50Z pjb: #| for example, let's define a function named square: |# (defun square #| that takes one argument: |# (x) #| and compute the square:  |# (* x x)) #| note how code is brackeded with |# #| ! |#
2019-11-17T21:41:11Z p_l: mooch2: wish I could help you out, but I'm too busy with work at the moment to even write a line of code for my Ivory emulator (right now more of a dissector)
2019-11-17T21:41:31Z jeosol: rumbler31: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g9BcZvQbXU
2019-11-17T21:41:37Z pjb: jeosol: also, notice how emacs knows that it should fontify only the code between |# … #| and not the text.
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2019-11-17T21:41:55Z jeosol: That is the link. I have no affliation with the author and watched that video after it was posted on the emacs reddit link
2019-11-17T21:42:16Z pjb: jeosol: notice how compile-file, load and read are literate-programming ready: they only process the code!
2019-11-17T21:42:37Z jeosol: pjb: Thanks for your info. I am not an expert in this at all, but noticed it will allow me to organize my files together with the examples.
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2019-11-17T21:44:25Z jeosol: pjb: how does this work, is it using a library. I assume this can run any function
2019-11-17T21:44:48Z pjb: jeosol: yes, it uses a library included in Common Lisp.
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2019-11-17T21:45:14Z pjb: To invoke the literate programming library, you just start the file with #| and end it with |#.
2019-11-17T21:45:18Z jeosol: internal or one installed via ql
2019-11-17T21:45:25Z jeosol: Oh I see
2019-11-17T21:45:33Z pjb: internal, and implemented by all implementation: it's in the standard!
2019-11-17T21:46:11Z jeosol: You have an example I could look at.
2019-11-17T21:46:18Z p_l: jeosol: #| |# is multiline comment in CL, pretty much
2019-11-17T21:46:41Z jeosol: I am familiar with that, so I was a bit confused how it works with that
2019-11-17T21:46:48Z p_l: *if* you do some creative work with readtable you can get it to output the text and push it through some other formatter
2019-11-17T21:47:01Z pjb: #| for example, let's define a function named square: |# (defun square #| that takes one argument: |# (x) #| and compute the square:  |# (* x x)) #| note how code is brackeded with |# #| ! |#
2019-11-17T21:47:14Z pjb: jeosol: ^ this is the example, you can look at!
2019-11-17T21:47:34Z jeosol: pjb: I get it now, in the context of the multiline comment. Thanks
2019-11-17T21:47:34Z p_l: not sure how well it would work for manipulating both code and text for purposes of generating printed document that had both
2019-11-17T21:48:08Z jeosol: @p_l: that sounds like what I am looking for like the linked YT video. Not sure it's possible though, I wanted to see what people are using
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2019-11-17T21:49:02Z jeosol: I want to type markdown, and somewhere in the document, I can have lisp code (and comments) to help me remember what cases or functions I called ( I don't have to show the lisp code), but the output gets generated into the document
2019-11-17T21:49:12Z pfdietz46: I'm more of an illiterate programming person.
2019-11-17T21:49:23Z jeosol: I mean the output of the function call at that point
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2019-11-17T21:50:21Z pjb: jeosol: an alternative, is to use org-mode.
2019-11-17T21:50:25Z pjb: (in emacs).
2019-11-17T21:50:45Z pjb: https://www.offerzen.com/blog/literate-programming-empower-your-writing-with-emacs-org-mode
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2019-11-17T21:51:45Z jeosol: pjb: thanks.
2019-11-17T21:52:06Z jeosol: The example did use org-mode + emacs, I will look into it
2019-11-17T21:53:23Z PuercoPope: jeosol: There is a erudite for literate programming although its more for writing and finding your way about the code that presenting it https://bitbucket.org/mmontone/erudite/src/master/
2019-11-17T21:54:12Z jeosol: PuercoPope: Thanks for the link. In my google search, your repo came up.
2019-11-17T21:54:36Z jeosol: Do you mean for code documentation
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2019-11-17T21:58:22Z PuercoPope: Not for documentation but to provide a superstructure to the code, outlines in this case. You can check mariano's fork of scenic to see how erudite is used.
2019-11-17T21:59:09Z jeosol: Ok. Thanks
2019-11-17T22:01:06Z Josh_2: Does anyone have a regex that works to extract urls in cl-ppcre?
2019-11-17T22:03:57Z jeosol: pjb: Checked the link and I think there is CL support and that org-mode route should work.
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2019-11-17T22:07:14Z Josh_2: I have found some regex online but they don't seem to work in cl-ppcre :O
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2019-11-17T22:10:54Z Bike: doesn't work how?
2019-11-17T22:11:15Z Josh_2: Okay cool I found one
2019-11-17T22:11:41Z Josh_2: Using the python one from this site http://urlregex.com/ works with two escape characters
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2019-11-17T22:12:13Z Bike: oh, yeah, if you enter it as a lisp string you'll need more backspaces
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2019-11-17T22:13:00Z sjl: probably more backslashes too, after the backspaces
2019-11-17T22:13:09Z Josh_2: Well it works
2019-11-17T22:13:31Z Josh_2: I had to add two backslashes
2019-11-17T22:13:58Z Bike: right.
2019-11-17T22:17:35Z aeth: jeosol: The reason #| ... |# works for literate programming is because you can just write a second parser and effectively you parse the file twice, once as a document and once as a program. Parsing it as a program is, well, it's just using the default reader and it will run, no magic required since it's just the comment syntax. Parsing it as a document means you read it as an extended Markdown or LaTeX or whatever.
2019-11-17T22:19:16Z aeth: Essentially, you can just preprocess it for an existing Markdown->HTML generator and invert the comments in that preprocessed step. So "|# ... #|" would become "`...`" if it's "inline" and if it's multiline it becomes "```common-lisp\n...\n```"
2019-11-17T22:20:37Z jeosol: aeth: Thanks for the explanation
2019-11-17T22:20:50Z aeth: You could probably do this with regular expressions if you're careful about the edge cases (like the first comment where there's either a "#|" that needs to be removed if it starts with a comment or a "... #|" that needs to be turned into lisp followed by markdown without having a first |#)
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2019-11-17T23:37:09Z saturn2: where can i find examples of some of the CLtL2 features (macroexpand-all, compiler-let, variable-information, parse-macro, enclose, etc.) being used?
2019-11-17T23:38:07Z saturn2: or anything written about them besides CLtL2 itself?
2019-11-17T23:40:33Z Bike: i don't know if anyone was totally clear on compiler-let
2019-11-17T23:40:45Z Bike: other than that i don't know, the sb-cltl2 documentation? they're all fairly simple
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2019-11-17T23:51:15Z saturn2: the sb-cltl2 documentation seems to have pretty much the same information as CLtL2
2019-11-17T23:51:58Z Bike: what more do you want to know?
2019-11-17T23:53:16Z saturn2: examples of how they could be put together to create something useful
2019-11-17T23:54:03Z saturn2: yes i can come up with some ideas myself, but surely people smarter than me have thought about this before
2019-11-17T23:54:57Z Bike: https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function is the only library i can think of using them
2019-11-17T23:55:22Z saturn2: thanks
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2019-11-18T00:57:09Z vms14: whose are the functions you've created that you use so often?
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2019-11-18T00:58:22Z vms14: I ended using a lot this one (defun make-text-buffer () (make-array 0 :adjustable t :fill-pointer t :element-type 'character)) and the html functions I've made with a bad implementation that return html code
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2019-11-18T01:29:01Z White_Flame: whose are they?  they're mine :-P
2019-11-18T01:29:49Z White_Flame: I use deep-mapcar a lot, though
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2019-11-18T01:39:55Z vms14: White_Flame: what deep-mapcar does?
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2019-11-18T01:40:27Z vms14: sounds profound
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2019-11-18T01:42:25Z White_Flame: recurses through all CARs of nested lists, as well as the last element of an improper list
2019-11-18T01:42:43Z White_Flame: *of nested list cells
2019-11-18T01:44:47Z White_Flame: also have deeper-mapcar which does hashtable key/values and arrays
2019-11-18T01:44:51Z vms14: do you tend to add stuff to the .sbclrc or alike?
2019-11-18T01:45:02Z White_Flame: only defuns to help load stuff
2019-11-18T01:45:42Z vms14: I'm tempted to add stuff in there, I'll end doing it I guess
2019-11-18T01:45:58Z White_Flame: no, make libs and load them intentionally
2019-11-18T01:46:11Z vms14: it's what I'm doing atm
2019-11-18T01:46:25Z vms14: btw there is no thing like :export :all?
2019-11-18T01:46:34Z vms14: to export all symbols of a package?
2019-11-18T01:46:37Z White_Flame: :: :-P
2019-11-18T01:46:37Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, help, set, say, mop, get, time, tell, roll, deny,
2019-11-18T01:46:56Z White_Flame: I was unaware we had a functioning bot here
2019-11-18T01:48:19Z vms14: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/43989257/how-to-export-all-definition-symbols-in-a-file-in-common-lisp
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2019-11-18T02:28:56Z markasoftware: How is alexandria:appendf different than nconc?
2019-11-18T02:36:42Z White_Flame: nconc doesn't affect a place, appendf does (as indicated by the -f suffix)
2019-11-18T02:37:34Z White_Flame: nconc just returns the return value, mutating its parameters
2019-11-18T02:38:03Z White_Flame: oh, and appendf shouldn't mutate its parameters
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2019-11-18T03:22:10Z pfdietz46: There could be a nconcf; does Alexandria have that?
2019-11-18T03:23:51Z oni-on-ion: https://quickref.common-lisp.net/alexandria.html#go-to-the-ALEXANDRIA_003cdot_003e1_003cdot_003e0_003cdot_003e0_003ccolon_003e_003ccolon_003eNCONCF-macro
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2019-11-18T03:41:47Z oni-on-ion: https://alex-gutev.github.io/generic-cl/   -- cool
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2019-11-18T04:09:42Z equwal: I don't see the utility of that.
2019-11-18T04:10:15Z oni-on-ion: thank you for sharing
2019-11-18T04:11:01Z equwal: ""The GENERIC-CL-USER package is also provided, which contains all the symbols in the CL-USER package" -- don't do that.
2019-11-18T04:11:32Z equwal: "This package is intended to be used only at the REPL" -- now I really don't see the utility.
2019-11-18T04:12:21Z oni-on-ion: hmm i don't see the purpose of these comments. it just sounds like its not for you
2019-11-18T04:13:43Z equwal: I was hoping for something like "it is useful for this use case where..." or similar. But it seems like it is for...no one?
2019-11-18T04:14:31Z oni-on-ion: rather than to suggest it for this purpose or that developer, i think its cool to have available. i personally happend upon it by someone looking for Lazy Sequences.
2019-11-18T04:14:40Z saturn2: it's for when you want your own objects to work with the usual CL functions
2019-11-18T04:15:15Z equwal: I see that, but only at the REPL?
2019-11-18T04:15:20Z oni-on-ion: saturn2, huh; funny -- thats exactly what the first paragraph of that URL describes it as. perhaps we are too accustomed to scrolling and scrolling and scrolling our social feeds =)
2019-11-18T04:16:54Z saturn2: equwal: the relationship between GENERIC-CL and GENERIC-CL-USER is the same as between COMMON-LISP and CL-USER
2019-11-18T04:17:35Z equwal: Okay I understand it now.
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2019-11-18T05:06:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-11-18T05:07:26Z Josh_2: Mornin
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2019-11-18T05:20:22Z p_l: beach: morning treating you well? :)
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2019-11-18T05:38:04Z beach: p_l: Yes, thanks.  Monday mornings are always chaotic around here.  This one a bit more than usual.  But it is all planned and under control.  You?
2019-11-18T05:38:20Z patrixl: planned and under control monday morning - sounds like a dream job
2019-11-18T05:39:57Z Lycurgus: planned chaos?
2019-11-18T05:40:52Z p_l: patrixl: I don't believe it will happen to me before retirement, and I expect retirement to come maybe ~20 years after I'm dead
2019-11-18T05:40:56Z p_l: ... if I'm lucky
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2019-11-18T06:14:55Z patrixl: 20 years is quite lucky!
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2019-11-18T06:20:09Z aeth: From HN 2 weeks ago... "Is Death Reversible?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21409744
2019-11-18T06:20:21Z aeth: That means that in the future, your employer will revive you from death so you can keep working!
2019-11-18T06:21:07Z Josh_2: this isn't lispcafe :O
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2019-11-18T07:01:50Z p_l: patrixl: *after* my death. what isn't clear is whether I'd be still working, certainly I won't get to enjoy retirement
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2019-11-18T07:26:11Z flip214: p_l: obviously you need to enjoy working, then it doesn't matter whether you retire or not
2019-11-18T07:26:39Z p_l: flip214: work has tendency to often not be on topics one enjoys
2019-11-18T07:28:01Z flip214: well, in 18 years you'll be one of the long-sought experts for the 2038 unix date migration, perhaps that's sufficient to let you retire
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2019-11-18T07:30:56Z markasoftware: how can I get a random element from a hash table?
2019-11-18T07:31:09Z markasoftware: without loopig through a random number of elements
2019-11-18T07:31:21Z Josh_2: I was gonna say that
2019-11-18T07:31:50Z White_Flame: prefill another hashtable with number->key mapping
2019-11-18T07:32:00Z White_Flame: with randomly shuffled numbers
2019-11-18T07:32:04Z White_Flame: then pull them out in order
2019-11-18T07:32:37Z White_Flame: or dig into the hashtable internals of your implementation, and you'll likely find arrays to index into randomly
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2019-11-18T07:34:04Z markasoftware: ahhhhhhh
2019-11-18T07:34:19Z markasoftware: thanks for the suggestion though
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2019-11-18T07:37:32Z saturn2: or write your own hashtable implementation
2019-11-18T07:39:10Z Josh_2: maphash it and then break out at a random integer?
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2019-11-18T07:39:55Z saturn2: he said he didn't want to do that
2019-11-18T07:40:09Z Josh_2: he said he didn't want to use loop xD
2019-11-18T07:40:51Z saturn2: sneaky
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2019-11-18T11:54:40Z many-questions: When I step in slime, SLDB, emacs momentarily flashes a yellow highlight to show which form is being evaluated. Is there a way to make this flash longer, or even have  a permanent highlight of the current form?
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2019-11-18T12:12:34Z Xach: many-questions: that's an interesting question. i couldn't figure it out quickly from slime.el, but it can't be too tricky.
2019-11-18T12:17:08Z trittweiler: many-questions,  There does not seem a way right now to configure this. To change the source code, you would want pass in a third parameter to slime-flash-region in slime-highlight-sexp
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2019-11-18T12:20:24Z trittweiler: From an UI point of view, perhaps what should be done is to add a command that redoes the last flash.
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2019-11-18T12:31:41Z Xach: trittweiler: can you tell me how sldb-step ties in to slime-highlight-sexp? I couldn't see the call sequence.
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2019-11-18T12:38:42Z phoe: If a Common Lisp type is non-NIL and non-T, then can/should negating it ever produce a NIL or T type?
2019-11-18T12:39:34Z phoe: Set theory tells me that this should never be the case, since a negation of a non-empty/non-universe set is never an universe/empty set.
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2019-11-18T12:44:51Z heisig: phoe: No, that should not happen.
2019-11-18T12:45:28Z phoe: heisig: thanks. (So it's bugfixing time.)
2019-11-18T12:46:06Z phoe: (NOT (OR (NOT INTEGER) (REAL (-0.5D0)) (REAL * (-0.5D0)))) is the smallest actual test case I've found that produces a NIL ctype on CCL and SBCL.
2019-11-18T12:48:13Z phoe: Hm, wait a second though...
2019-11-18T12:48:44Z phoe: This type is T. There is no object that is able to fail this test.
2019-11-18T12:48:47Z phoe: Let me backtrack a bit.
2019-11-18T12:49:15Z jackdaniel: I'll allow it
2019-11-18T12:49:21Z jackdaniel: ;-)
2019-11-18T12:49:42Z Shinmera: That's (AND INTEGER (NOT REAL)), which is NIL.
2019-11-18T12:55:06Z phoe: So this also must mean that (OR (NOT INTEGER) (INTEGER * -1) (REAL (-3.5D0)) (REAL * (-3.5D0))) is T.
2019-11-18T12:55:36Z phoe: And that (OR (NOT INTEGER) (INTEGER * -1) (REAL (-3.926510009989861D+7)) (REAL * (-3.926510009989861D+7))) is T.
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2019-11-18T13:26:24Z trittweiler: Xach: grep for :show-frame-source in the *.el and *.lisp files. The control flow is not very apparent at all, you are right
2019-11-18T13:27:26Z phoe: Okay, so it seems there are two things to be done...
2019-11-18T13:27:47Z phoe: First, somehow improve the type parsing, so CCL/SBCL can infer from the above type that it is equivalent to T.
2019-11-18T13:28:19Z phoe: Second, try and figure out why the hell (VALUES NIL T) is returned, which means that SBCL/CCL are *sure* that their decision is correct even if it is not.
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2019-11-18T13:35:32Z jackdaniel: nil nil is returned from what call?
2019-11-18T13:35:48Z jackdaniel: subtypep on sbcl gives me nil nil
2019-11-18T13:36:07Z jackdaniel: with T as the first argument
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2019-11-18T13:43:17Z Xach: trittweiler: ah, thanks
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2019-11-18T14:06:58Z phoe: jackdaniel: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1552#1552
2019-11-18T14:07:17Z phoe: this is the failing* part of ANSI-TEST subtypep.cons.43
2019-11-18T14:07:25Z phoe: *on CCL and SBCL
2019-11-18T14:07:54Z phoe: this gives me NIL T even though the second type is equivalent to T
2019-11-18T14:09:06Z phoe: so T T should instead be returned
2019-11-18T14:09:49Z phoe: (or NIL NIL, obviously)
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2019-11-18T14:32:53Z jackdaniel: how the second type is equivalent to T?
2019-11-18T14:34:09Z jackdaniel: how cdr of a cons can be (eql 0) and = -3.92...d7 at the same time?
2019-11-18T14:35:16Z jackdaniel: to me it looks like (subtypep some-non-nil-type nil), what is indeed NIL T
2019-11-18T14:38:10Z Bike: ...yeah, the or not not demorgans into an and type
2019-11-18T14:38:14Z jackdaniel: (or (not x) (not y)) -> (and x y)
2019-11-18T14:38:31Z Bike: is that real supposed to be equal to zero or something?
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2019-11-18T14:38:52Z Bike: though i don't think that would make it T either
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2019-11-18T14:46:32Z _death: jackdaniel: missing a not
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2019-11-18T14:46:55Z Bike: err. right.
2019-11-18T14:47:03Z Bike: algebra is hard.
2019-11-18T14:47:04Z phoe: jackdaniel: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1553#1553
2019-11-18T14:47:48Z phoe: algebra is pretty damn hard
2019-11-18T14:47:53Z Bike: is that by hand or do you have a deriver for this
2019-11-18T14:48:13Z phoe: Bike: by hand, and we have just proved the first and hardest step up there in #lisp
2019-11-18T14:48:21Z phoe: the later ones are simpler to prove
2019-11-18T14:48:35Z phoe: I mean, s/first/second/
2019-11-18T14:48:49Z phoe: the movement from step 1 to 2 was done by CCL
2019-11-18T14:49:22Z phoe: the first type in caps is where CCL is unable to simplify it further
2019-11-18T14:49:49Z phoe: since it is unable to work with the -3.926510009989861D+7 stuff
2019-11-18T14:50:01Z phoe: it can infer that the third and next types are all equivalent to T
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2019-11-18T14:52:37Z jackdaniel: _death: right
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2019-11-18T15:30:20Z phoe: okay, there is very slow progress but progress
2019-11-18T15:30:28Z phoe: I am slowly chipping away at that thing.
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2019-11-18T15:42:33Z pjb: phoe: it depends on whether "type-designator-1 IS type-designator-2"  means the two type designators are identical, or whether they represent the same type, ie. the same set of values?
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2019-11-18T15:43:40Z pjb: phoe: specifically, (and (not (equalp '(and (eql 1) (eql 2)) 'nil)) (subtypep '(and (eql 1) (eql 2)) 'nil) (subtypep  'nil '(and (eql 1) (eql 2)))) #| --> t ; t |#
2019-11-18T15:44:03Z pjb: phoe: but implementations may not be able to determine the subtype relationship in all cases!
2019-11-18T15:45:23Z pjb: eg. (defun always-nil (x) 'nil) (deftype few () '(satisfies aways-nil)) (and (subtypep 'always-nil 'nil) (subtypep  'nil 'always-nil)) #| --> nil |#
2019-11-18T15:46:42Z phoe: pjb: if the implementation is unable to determine the relationship, it must return NIL NIL.
2019-11-18T15:46:49Z pjb: exactly.
2019-11-18T15:46:50Z phoe: CCL returns NIL T, so it is *SURE* that it got the answer right.
2019-11-18T15:46:54Z phoe: And it gets it wrong.
2019-11-18T15:47:00Z pjb: oops
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2019-11-18T15:47:04Z phoe: So there's a bug that I need to squash.
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2019-11-18T15:51:50Z jeosol: Good morning everyone
2019-11-18T15:51:53Z phoe: heyyy
2019-11-18T15:52:16Z jeosol: getting this sbcl specific error: dynamic space too small for core: 1912160KiB required, 1048576KiB available.
2019-11-18T15:52:51Z jeosol: when I try to load a core through slime. Works on the shell no issues. I do have a lot memory not used when I checked with top (~27GB)
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2019-11-18T15:58:41Z jeosol: anyone encounterered this issue (I meant loading an image above)
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2019-11-18T15:59:21Z phoe: AW FUCK YES
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2019-11-18T16:01:04Z phoe: Fixed it. Time to write a sane commit message that describes what exactly happened.
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2019-11-18T16:01:32Z Bike: wow, you understood sbcl subtypep enough to fix a problem?
2019-11-18T16:02:43Z phoe: Bike: nope, fixed it on CCL~
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2019-11-18T16:03:12Z Bike: oh. well, still.
2019-11-18T16:04:19Z phoe: I'll show you the commit when I'm done. Maybe SBCL has a similar place and you will be able to port it to SBCL.
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2019-11-18T16:18:52Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe-trash/ccl/commit/ba281521b1cfbffe3c3b6ef0a56e27e425438f72?ts=8
2019-11-18T16:18:55Z phoe: whew
2019-11-18T16:19:04Z phoe: now let's just wait for travis to confirm that.
2019-11-18T16:21:44Z phoe: a full day of digging for a one-line fix
2019-11-18T16:22:21Z easye is really digging Travis with ABCL <https://travis-ci.org/easye/abcl/builds/613579263>
2019-11-18T16:22:38Z easye: It's real nice not to have the fans in my aging equipment wheeze on builds.
2019-11-18T16:23:06Z Bike: what does it mean for a type to contain another type, here
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2019-11-18T16:23:30Z phoe: easye: <3
2019-11-18T16:23:30Z Bike: "those types can be *EMPTY-TYPE* or *UNIVERSAL-TYPE* in disguise", yeah, ok
2019-11-18T16:24:23Z easye: As a public service, the Common Lisp Foundation also has Gitlab CI available to all users.
2019-11-18T16:24:42Z phoe: easye: <3 <3
2019-11-18T16:24:43Z easye: But that github/travis stuff has some nice toolin'
2019-11-18T16:26:03Z phoe: Travis has builds on macOS/Windows/Linux for free on github. Sourcehut has Linux/BSDs.
2019-11-18T16:26:34Z easye: But githubt/travis doesn't have Catalina that I can see yet.
2019-11-18T16:27:17Z phoe: Correct. I am not aware of a CI service with Catalina.
2019-11-18T16:28:01Z phoe: ;; maybe they can't get any CI utils to run on catalina, which wouldn't surprise me
2019-11-18T16:28:08Z easye: "Correct under Linux means the vendors have the responsibility to make it work on their commercial offering."
2019-11-18T16:28:53Z easye: " maybe they can't get any CI utils to run on catalina": it's gonna take a little elbow grease, but they have the engineering talent and time to do it.
2019-11-18T16:28:59Z phoe: where is that first quote from?
2019-11-18T16:29:17Z easye: Mine.
2019-11-18T16:29:32Z easye: I dunno why I quoted it.
2019-11-18T16:30:09Z phoe: Oh, yes, I think I understand now
2019-11-18T16:31:17Z Bike: sbcl has similar subtypep code, except it divides things into type-classes
2019-11-18T16:31:28Z Bike: and in early-type.lisp it defines the cons type-class to have :might-contain-other-types nil
2019-11-18T16:31:35Z phoe: !!!
2019-11-18T16:31:38Z phoe: that's wrong though
2019-11-18T16:31:43Z Bike: but given the description in the definition of type classes, i'm not sure just switching it is correct
2019-11-18T16:31:59Z phoe: let me read up on that quickly
2019-11-18T16:32:15Z Bike: it's in type-class.lisp, the type-class def!struct
2019-11-18T16:34:11Z phoe: → #sbcl
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2019-11-18T17:55:07Z phoe: OK. My CCL PR is most likely wrong.
2019-11-18T17:56:35Z jjkola: why?
2019-11-18T17:58:22Z phoe: Discussing with Bike on #sbcl made me realize that ccl::type-might-contain-other-types-p might not be what I think it means.
2019-11-18T17:58:36Z phoe: with Bike and pkhuong that is.
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2019-11-18T17:58:44Z jjkola: oh, I see
2019-11-18T17:58:48Z phoe: "contain" might be used as in set theory
2019-11-18T17:58:58Z phoe: A "contains" B if A is a subset of B
2019-11-18T18:00:29Z pjb: Note that there's no type type in CL.  Only type-specifier = sexp.
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2019-11-18T18:00:42Z pjb: So compilers need to define their own type type.
2019-11-18T18:00:44Z phoe: That is how it is used in SBCL internals. I wonder if that is also the case in CCL internals...
2019-11-18T18:00:55Z phoe: pjb: yes yes, both SBCL and CCL have their own internal implementations
2019-11-18T18:00:59Z phoe: they are both called ctypes
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2019-11-18T18:01:22Z phoe: and by "types" up there, I mean these ctypes
2019-11-18T18:02:03Z pjb: phoe: but worse, a type containing types, be them ctypes, would still be strange.
2019-11-18T18:02:14Z pjb: this would be a type useful only inside the compiler.
2019-11-18T18:02:22Z phoe: pjb: but that is what compound types are
2019-11-18T18:02:24Z pjb: Perhaps to compile the compiler?
2019-11-18T18:02:33Z pjb: phoe: not if "contains" = set membership!
2019-11-18T18:02:50Z phoe: let's not confuse things
2019-11-18T18:02:53Z pjb: But you said it was subset.
2019-11-18T18:02:59Z pjb: So ok..
2019-11-18T18:03:09Z phoe: I am talking about :might-contain-other-types nil that Bike mentioned up there
2019-11-18T18:03:19Z phoe: "contain" - what exactly does it mean
2019-11-18T18:03:50Z pjb: phoe: IMO, renaming is an important part of maintainance.  ccl::type-might-contain-other-types-p  ->  ccl::type-might-be-a-subtype-of-other-types-p
2019-11-18T18:04:09Z phoe: pjb: that doesn't make sense, everything is a subtype of T for instance
2019-11-18T18:04:14Z pjb: contain = ∈   subset = ⊂
2019-11-18T18:04:20Z phoe: and STRING is a subtype of VECTOR is a subtype of ARRAY and so on
2019-11-18T18:04:36Z pjb: phoe: this is why CL doesn't define a type type, I would guess.
2019-11-18T18:04:53Z pjb: Logical paradoxes occur when your language allows type type.
2019-11-18T18:05:21Z phoe: and the only ctypes that satisfy TYPE-MIGHT-CONTAIN-OTHER-TYPES-P are hairy, negation, union, and intersection types
2019-11-18T18:05:21Z Bike: what paradox
2019-11-18T18:05:21Z pjb: phoe: vector doesn't contain string. vector contains #(1 2 3).
2019-11-18T18:05:32Z phoe: or in other words SATISFIES, NOT, OR, AND
2019-11-18T18:05:42Z pjb: Bike: paradoxes such as the type of all types.
2019-11-18T18:05:49Z phoe: pjb: I'll rename it when I figure out what the hell it means and what the hell is it supposed to do
2019-11-18T18:05:54Z Bike: but that didn't come up in the conversation.
2019-11-18T18:05:57Z pjb: Does the type of all types belong to the type of all types?
2019-11-18T18:06:07Z phoe: Bike: pjb loves doing stuff like that
2019-11-18T18:06:15Z Bike: i know. i keep going for it, like an idiot.
2019-11-18T18:06:23Z phoe: picking on words and then bringing up straw men to attack
2019-11-18T18:06:27Z jjkola: pjb: I would say yes
2019-11-18T18:06:29Z pjb: I've debugged quite a number of bugs by renaming things globally in projects…
2019-11-18T18:06:41Z pjb: just by renaming.
2019-11-18T18:06:42Z phoe: pjb: I agree that this function needs to be renamed
2019-11-18T18:06:51Z phoe: but I need to figure out what it should be renamed *to*
2019-11-18T18:07:00Z Bike: phoe: I think the idea is that an instance of a type-class is a type, and that, if a type-class does not "contain other types", instances of that type-class are disjoint from instances of distinct type-classes
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2019-11-18T18:09:39Z phoe: Bike: CCL sources seems to agree with SBCL ones. The only four defined type classes in SBCL that have true might-contain-other-types are hairy, negation, union, intersection.
2019-11-18T18:09:57Z Bike: what about member?
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2019-11-18T18:10:00Z jjkola: pjb: as type of all types contains all types thus it must also contain type of all types otherwise it is not type of all types
2019-11-18T18:10:08Z phoe: Bike: nil
2019-11-18T18:10:13Z phoe: └─▪ git grep -A5 "define-type-class member"
2019-11-18T18:10:14Z phoe: src/code/early-type.lisp:(define-type-class member :enumerable t
2019-11-18T18:10:14Z phoe: src/code/early-type.lisp-                    :might-contain-other-types nil)
2019-11-18T18:10:31Z Bike: hmm
2019-11-18T18:10:37Z Bike: maybe it normalizes away stuff
2019-11-18T18:10:39Z phoe: So my CCL fix is incorrect and might likely cause SUBTYPEP to behave incorrectly - as in, the patched SUBTYPEP could return NIL NIL instead of NIL T
2019-11-18T18:10:42Z phoe: yes, I think so
2019-11-18T18:11:00Z phoe: that by the time CSUBTYPEP is reached these are expected to be normalized away
2019-11-18T18:11:11Z Bike: no, (sb-kernel:specifier-type '(eql (3))) is a MEMBER-TYPE
2019-11-18T18:11:11Z Bike: wack
2019-11-18T18:11:26Z phoe: well anyway
2019-11-18T18:12:17Z phoe: this means that the proper issue is to fix this
2019-11-18T18:13:03Z phoe: (specifier-type '(or (real * (-0.5d0)) (not integer) (real (-0.5d0))))
2019-11-18T18:13:10Z phoe: this is T but is not detected as T
2019-11-18T18:14:07Z Bike: huh, i thought sbcl merged ranges
2019-11-18T18:14:20Z phoe: even though (real -0.5d0 -0.5d0) is a subtype of (not integer)
2019-11-18T18:14:23Z phoe: well likely it does
2019-11-18T18:14:25Z Bike: er. wait, i see, it's all reals minus -0.5d0
2019-11-18T18:14:36Z phoe: but it doesn't see that -0.5d0 is a part of (not integer)
2019-11-18T18:14:53Z phoe: neither does CCL
2019-11-18T18:14:56Z phoe: I elaborated on a possible fix for that on #sbcl.
2019-11-18T18:14:59Z Bike: fuckin... anti ranges...
2019-11-18T18:15:15Z phoe: algebra is hard™
2019-11-18T18:15:44Z Bike: sbcl doesn't seem to detect these anti ranges
2019-11-18T18:15:48Z Bike: just as well, they're stupid
2019-11-18T18:15:48Z phoe: it likely needs to be smarter about merging ranges that end and begin on the same exclusive bound
2019-11-18T18:16:01Z Bike: well it can't merge them. that's a different thing from a range
2019-11-18T18:16:14Z phoe: wait, what do you mean by range then
2019-11-18T18:16:27Z phoe: is it a standardized math term that I am oblivious of because I learned it in Polish
2019-11-18T18:16:37Z Bike: er, no, just... you know, between two numbers
2019-11-18T18:16:40Z phoe: oh
2019-11-18T18:16:45Z phoe: wait, it CAN merge them
2019-11-18T18:16:48Z Bike: your disjunction of real types here adds up to all reals, except for this one real.
2019-11-18T18:16:51Z Bike: that's not a range.
2019-11-18T18:16:56Z phoe: if it can infer that the exclusive bound is elsewhere in the type
2019-11-18T18:17:14Z phoe: if it has (-inf, 0.5d0) sum (0.5d0, inf)
2019-11-18T18:17:22Z phoe: then it can look if 0.5d0 is anywhere else in the union type
2019-11-18T18:17:27Z Bike: holy shit nearly pasted my whole buffer in here, let's not do that
2019-11-18T18:17:28Z phoe: if yes, then bam, it can merge them
2019-11-18T18:17:36Z Bike: what i mean is that sbcl doesn't treat that sum specially
2019-11-18T18:17:43Z Bike: it ends up with just a union-type
2019-11-18T18:17:44Z phoe: and it should
2019-11-18T18:17:56Z Bike: no, you want it to also be smart enough to figure this othher thing out.
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2019-11-18T18:18:04Z phoe: or that, yes
2019-11-18T18:18:12Z Bike: if it's just a union type the ranges might as well be satisfies types for all it knows about them together
2019-11-18T18:18:24Z phoe: but we can't fix it with :might-contain-other-types
2019-11-18T18:18:30Z phoe: so we need to look for an even better solution
2019-11-18T18:18:35Z Bike: probably not, no.
2019-11-18T18:18:46Z phoe: which I don't know what it might look like
2019-11-18T18:21:21Z phoe: OK, let me sum up
2019-11-18T18:21:41Z phoe: one thing is (or (real * (-0.5d0)) (not integer) (real (-0.5d0))) not being detected as a T
2019-11-18T18:21:57Z phoe: what is the other thing again? I mean the one you meant by 19:17 < Bike> no, you want it to also be smart enough to figure this othher thing out.
2019-11-18T18:22:10Z Bike: well that's pretty much the same thing.
2019-11-18T18:22:31Z Bike: the analysis you're talking about doing is kind of predicated on the idea that (or (real * (-0.5d0)) (real (-0.5d0))) is handled more intelligently.
2019-11-18T18:22:43Z Bike: or like, at all
2019-11-18T18:22:47Z Bike: specially
2019-11-18T18:22:47Z phoe: it is just a special case of merging ranges
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2019-11-18T18:23:05Z phoe: where you want to merge two ranges that neighbor but you need to find the point between them
2019-11-18T18:23:38Z phoe: that could be a function added to the mechanism that already merges ranges
2019-11-18T18:23:46Z phoe: because (specifier-type '(or (real * (-0.5d0)) (real -0.5d0 -0.5d0) (real (-0.5d0)))) ;=> #<NUMERIC-CTYPE REAL>
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2019-11-18T18:24:12Z phoe: if SBCL can notice that (real -0.5d0 -0.5d0) is a subtype of (not integer) then this case is solved
2019-11-18T18:24:35Z Bike: it knows that already.
2019-11-18T18:24:42Z phoe: it doesn't
2019-11-18T18:24:53Z phoe: or even if it does, it doesn't utilize that knowledge in such cases
2019-11-18T18:24:56Z Bike: (subtypep '(real -0.5d0 -0.5d0) '(not integer))
2019-11-18T18:25:00Z phoe: d'oh
2019-11-18T18:25:02Z Bike: what i'm saying is that it doesn't get to that point, yes.
2019-11-18T18:25:04Z phoe: I didn't mean that
2019-11-18T18:25:24Z phoe: I meant that when SBCL has two ranges that have the same exclusive bound, one starting, the other ending
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2019-11-18T18:25:32Z phoe: it could go look around for that missing point in between them
2019-11-18T18:25:36Z phoe: as a part of its range-merging routines.
2019-11-18T18:25:43Z Bike: it doesn't know that (or (real * (-0.5d0)) (real (-0.5d0))) is (and real (not (real -0.5d0 -0.5d0)))
2019-11-18T18:26:25Z Bike: though it can figure it out with subtypep, apparently
2019-11-18T18:26:30Z phoe: it can figure it out then! if it has a union ctype with a range type with an exclusive bound, then it can look through all other ctypes in the union type
2019-11-18T18:26:45Z phoe: to see if another exclusive bound ends just where this exclusive bound begins
2019-11-18T18:26:50Z Bike: oh, i see, because it normalizes these to the same type.
2019-11-18T18:26:59Z phoe: if that is true, then it can look for the third ctype - the one that contains that missing point
2019-11-18T18:27:15Z phoe: and if it finds all three, then the ranges can be merged
2019-11-18T18:27:15Z Bike: that is, it makes a range for real, and then subtracts out the (real -0.5d0 -0.5d0) to get the same union type.
2019-11-18T18:27:22Z Bike: going the other way it probably couldn't do though.
2019-11-18T18:27:31Z phoe: I mean the following algorithm
2019-11-18T18:27:39Z phoe: SBCL grabs a (real * (-0.5d0))
2019-11-18T18:27:47Z phoe: it notices that it has an exclusive upper bound
2019-11-18T18:28:10Z phoe: and it has nothing to merge that range with using its current methods
2019-11-18T18:28:21Z phoe: so it iterates through all remaining ctypes to see if there is one whose *beginning* exclusive bound starts at -0.5d0
2019-11-18T18:28:30Z phoe: it finds (real (-0.5d0))
2019-11-18T18:29:05Z Bike: or, presuming it's in the middle of computing a disjunction, it sees if any of the types the exclusive range is being disjoined with includes the missing point.
2019-11-18T18:29:10Z phoe: so now it iterates through all remaining ctypes to see if there is anything that is a supertype of (real -0.5d0 -0.5d0)
2019-11-18T18:29:26Z phoe: if yes, then we have the full range - so it can merge the hell out of it
2019-11-18T18:30:19Z phoe: basically - SBCL right now doesn't work with these missing points
2019-11-18T18:30:25Z phoe: and it could and I say it should
2019-11-18T18:33:29Z pfdietz: I have a feeling solving the general case here will look a lot like a SMT solver.
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2019-11-18T18:36:27Z phoe: the general case is solving this problem for all dense sets that SBCL can operate on
2019-11-18T18:37:14Z phoe: so that is, reals, ratios, {double-,single-,short-,long-,}floats...
2019-11-18T18:37:23Z phoe: anything else?
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2019-11-18T18:38:08Z phoe: integers are already solved, (or (integer * (1)) (eql 1) (integer (1))) =:= integer
2019-11-18T18:39:12Z Bike: pfdietz: pretty sure satisfies types make an smt problem. i think baker mentioned it
2019-11-18T18:39:52Z Bike: "This extended subtypep decision procedure would then be NP-complete, since we could use it to do tautology-testing." right
2019-11-18T18:40:29Z phoe: but can the type system make any decisions regarding SATISFIES types?
2019-11-18T18:41:04Z phoe: or are they treated as blobs that can return arbitrary results and are therefore unpredictable until the first result is cached in?
2019-11-18T18:41:10Z Bike: sure, it can know that (satisfies foo) = (satisfies foo)
2019-11-18T18:41:17Z phoe: yes, that's caching
2019-11-18T18:41:33Z phoe: oh wait, you mean using already cached results
2019-11-18T18:42:02Z Bike: and it can know that (or (satisfies foo) (not (satisfies foo))) is T, unless it wants to allow for an even weirder type system
2019-11-18T18:42:33Z Bike: then you do yada yada bla bla and presto, 3-sat.
2019-11-18T18:42:56Z phoe: well shit
2019-11-18T18:43:02Z phoe: ranges are so much more predictable
2019-11-18T18:43:21Z Bike: yessir.
2019-11-18T18:43:24Z phoe: mostly because there exists a clear algorithm for solving those
2019-11-18T18:43:36Z phoe: shit hits the fan only the moment we introduce hairy types into the mix
2019-11-18T18:43:56Z Bike: you can solve smt, it just takes a while
2019-11-18T18:44:06Z Bike: you'd only run into NIL NIL results when you mix satisfies with normal things like ranges
2019-11-18T18:44:28Z Bike: and maybe some negations. friggin negations
2019-11-18T18:45:27Z phoe: I'll solve it for ranges in CCL and then think about more general things
2019-11-18T18:45:33Z phoe: s/ranges/numeric ranges/
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2019-11-18T18:45:51Z Bike: i wouldn'[t bother going any farther, nobody needs these weird ass types to be good
2019-11-18T18:46:28Z Bike: really, i'd say rather than fixing this range thing you should figure out why sbcl and ccl are more confident than they oughta be
2019-11-18T18:46:51Z phoe: I figured out why CCL is too confident
2019-11-18T18:47:06Z phoe: that is why I ended up at type-might-contain-other-types-p
2019-11-18T18:47:21Z Bike: right... so what is it specifically? it assumes cons types are never nil or something?
2019-11-18T18:47:31Z phoe: one sec, I need to backtrack
2019-11-18T18:47:49Z phoe: fffff, I have my notes on the other machine
2019-11-18T18:47:56Z pfdietz: Compiling pattern matchers could use some hefty type reasoning.
2019-11-18T18:48:03Z phoe: hold on a second let me try and quickly re-do the whole thing
2019-11-18T18:48:36Z Bike: i wrote an implementation of typecase that tries to be reasonably smart. it's still quite dumb and is already a thousand lines
2019-11-18T18:48:46Z Bike: optima must be somethin
2019-11-18T18:49:13Z pfdietz: I use trivia.  I had a problem recently where it was taking exponential time to compile patterns.
2019-11-18T18:49:13Z phoe: okay, basically CCL states that these two types are not equal to each other
2019-11-18T18:49:15Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1554#1554
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2019-11-18T18:49:41Z pfdietz: (trivia reimplements the optima api)
2019-11-18T18:50:03Z phoe: type= is simple
2019-11-18T18:50:05Z phoe: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/blob/master/level-1/l1-typesys.lisp#L1153
2019-11-18T18:50:18Z Bike: it has level0, level1, level2 directories. always a good sign
2019-11-18T18:50:51Z phoe: the type method for complex equality is at https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/blob/master/level-1/l1-typesys.lisp#L3126
2019-11-18T18:51:08Z phoe: and this directly calls type-might-contain-other-types-p
2019-11-18T18:51:45Z Bike: this is for = of two unions, or just anything with a union?
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2019-11-18T18:52:02Z phoe: documentation for INVOKE-TYPE-METHOD
2019-11-18T18:52:02Z phoe: ;;;    Invoke a type method on TYPE1 and TYPE2.  If the two types have the same
2019-11-18T18:52:02Z phoe: ;;; class, invoke the simple method.  Otherwise, invoke any complex method.  If
2019-11-18T18:52:02Z phoe: ;;; there isn't a distinct complex-arg1 method, then swap the arguments when
2019-11-18T18:52:03Z phoe: ;;; calling type1's method.  If no applicable method, return DEFAULT.
2019-11-18T18:52:11Z Bike: hrm.
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2019-11-18T18:52:15Z phoe: one type is UNION-CTYPE and the other is CONS-CTYPE
2019-11-18T18:52:23Z phoe: so a complex method is called
2019-11-18T18:52:31Z phoe: and CONS-CTYPE has no complex method
2019-11-18T18:52:47Z phoe: so the complex method for UNION-CTYPE is called
2019-11-18T18:52:59Z phoe: and the only possible results here are NIL T and NIL NIL
2019-11-18T18:53:04Z phoe: which is already a bad sign
2019-11-18T18:53:24Z phoe: because we can only bail out and confuse ourselves and we cannot return T T at this point
2019-11-18T18:53:24Z Bike: and the union is all of cons types, so none of them have type-might-contain-other-types-p.
2019-11-18T18:53:30Z phoe: yes
2019-11-18T18:53:41Z phoe: and the cons types are disjoint
2019-11-18T18:53:58Z phoe: because the car-type of the first cons is the hellish T type in disguise that wasn't detected
2019-11-18T18:54:13Z phoe: hence my reasoning - if we solve this T detection, then this type nicely folds up into a T
2019-11-18T18:54:41Z phoe: and we return T T much earlier on
2019-11-18T18:55:00Z phoe: because in this complex-= method, the only thing we can effectively do now is return NIL NIL
2019-11-18T18:55:12Z Bike: well i'm just wondering if this couldn't ocme up with some unrelated weird type.
2019-11-18T18:55:54Z phoe: pfdietz has his random subtypep tester, we could possibly adapt it to turn CCL's subtypep into swiss cheese.
2019-11-18T18:56:52Z phoe: but my opinion is to fix what we have now in CCL with the tools that we have, especially since numeric ranges are actually used and utilized and it is possible that someone will end up with a weird range like this someday.
2019-11-18T18:57:12Z phoe: (this situation we're talking about now was actually found by the random tester.)
2019-11-18T18:58:21Z Bike: huh, if i try this with satisfies types i just get... nil
2019-11-18T18:58:23Z Bike: one nil.
2019-11-18T18:58:26Z Bike: what does that mean...
2019-11-18T18:58:54Z phoe: Bike: example?
2019-11-18T18:59:20Z Bike: (type= (specifier-type '(or (cons (satisfies foo)) (cons (satisfies bar)))) (specifier-type '(cons (not float))))
2019-11-18T18:59:56Z phoe: a single NIL happens in CCL
2019-11-18T18:59:57Z phoe: weird
2019-11-18T19:00:01Z Bike: right, in ccl
2019-11-18T19:00:09Z Bike: i guess it probably just merges those cons types though
2019-11-18T19:00:32Z phoe: (list (specifier-type '(or (cons (satisfies foo)) (cons (satisfies bar)))) (specifier-type '(cons (not float))))
2019-11-18T19:00:37Z phoe: (#<CONS-CTYPE (CONS (OR (SATISFIES FOO) (SATISFIES BAR)) T)> #<CONS-CTYPE (CONS (NOT FLOAT) T)>)
2019-11-18T19:00:44Z Bike: ah, hey, if i make the first type (or (cons (satisfies foo) (satisfies foo2)) (cons (satisfies bar) (satisfies bar2))) i get NIL T
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2019-11-18T19:01:00Z phoe: that looks like a bug in one of the methods then
2019-11-18T19:01:05Z phoe: this is supposed to return two values
2019-11-18T19:01:32Z Bike: is my new example here the same problem of overconfidence, though?
2019-11-18T19:01:35Z phoe: oh wait a second
2019-11-18T19:01:42Z phoe: type= description
2019-11-18T19:01:43Z phoe: ;;;    If two types are definitely equivalent, return true.  The second value
2019-11-18T19:01:43Z phoe: ;;; indicates whether the first value is definitely correct.  This should only
2019-11-18T19:01:43Z phoe: ;;; fail in the presence of Hairy types.
2019-11-18T19:01:53Z Bike: check it out, that's TWO problems i just found
2019-11-18T19:02:03Z phoe: oh wait
2019-11-18T19:02:19Z Bike: well it works with cl:subtypep too.
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2019-11-18T19:03:12Z phoe: shit
2019-11-18T19:04:25Z phoe: well then the issue likely is in the cons processing
2019-11-18T19:04:37Z phoe: I mean, other than the fact that there's range merging problems
2019-11-18T19:05:00Z Bike: no, i mean the issue is the union type= method, isn't it?
2019-11-18T19:05:14Z Bike: seems to me like it should just give up and return NIL NIL unconditionally, or at least return it more than it does now.
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2019-11-18T19:06:10Z phoe: well, my fix was to make it return NIL NIL if any of the ctypes are cons-ctypes
2019-11-18T19:06:26Z phoe: but I am unable to evaluate if I am going to break anything this way
2019-11-18T19:07:28Z Bike: i'm fairly sure returning NIL NIL is like, standard conforming, at least
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2019-11-18T19:07:37Z Bike: might make type inference and stuff way worse though, i dunno
2019-11-18T19:07:48Z phoe: the last is exactly what I am worried about
2019-11-18T19:08:10Z phoe: and I do not think that I have a sane test suite that tests SUBTYPEP on CCL
2019-11-18T19:08:21Z phoe: and will tell me if my change fucks up something that was right earlier
2019-11-18T19:08:35Z phoe: so I might make it more standard-conforming, yeah
2019-11-18T19:08:49Z phoe: but the worry is that I will make it too standard-conforming
2019-11-18T19:09:34Z phoe: hey uh wait
2019-11-18T19:09:37Z phoe: (subtypep `(cons (satisfies foo) (satisfies foo2)) `(cons (not float) t))
2019-11-18T19:09:41Z phoe: ;=> NIL T
2019-11-18T19:09:49Z phoe: we've just eliminated union types from the equation
2019-11-18T19:10:12Z Bike: haha, why the heck
2019-11-18T19:10:28Z Bike: that one properly returns NIL NIL in sbcl.
2019-11-18T19:10:44Z phoe: that is three problems now
2019-11-18T19:10:52Z phoe: fuckity fucketty fuck
2019-11-18T19:11:37Z Bike: i'm helping!!
2019-11-18T19:12:17Z phoe: yes you are!
2019-11-18T19:12:50Z phoe: #| even though I quietly hoped that your help would reduce the number of open bugs, not increase it |#
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2019-11-18T19:14:29Z jasom: so https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp/issues/10 being on the front-page of HN reminded me of my attempts to get abcj running in DoppioJVM (a JS JVM impelmentation).  It works, but the startup is *very* slow any idea what happens between "Low-level initialization" and "Startup completed"?  I'm seeing over 90 seconds spent in that time...
2019-11-18T19:15:08Z Xach: what is abcj?
2019-11-18T19:18:29Z jasom: s/abcj/abcl
2019-11-18T19:19:20Z Xach: ah
2019-11-18T19:19:45Z Xach: i don't know the answer, sorry. in my experience abcl is slow to start up directly on my laptop, too, but it's not 90 seconds.
2019-11-18T19:21:17Z jasom: It's junder 1 second to reach the "Startup completed" message on my workstation and 106 seconds on Firefox, 45 seconds on chromium.
2019-11-18T19:21:33Z jasom: And another minute or so from "Startup completed" to getting a REPL.
2019-11-18T19:22:23Z phoe: I'd try and profile it there to see where it spends the longest
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2019-11-18T19:25:20Z phoe: Bike: okay, that is three different bugs
2019-11-18T19:25:25Z phoe: on CCL that is
2019-11-18T19:25:30Z phoe: one - ranges are not merged properly
2019-11-18T19:25:40Z Bike: well, that's an enhancement.
2019-11-18T19:25:43Z phoe: two - union types with conses are overconfident
2019-11-18T19:25:53Z phoe: three - cons types with satisfies are overconfident
2019-11-18T19:26:05Z phoe: the first one I can solve with numeric things, the way I intended
2019-11-18T19:26:14Z phoe: the latter two, I'll think of once I fix the first one
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2019-11-18T19:27:07Z phoe: does that sound somewhat sane?
2019-11-18T19:27:21Z Bike: sure.
2019-11-18T19:27:47Z phoe: OK - I'll go reset my mind and likely start from tomorrow.
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2019-11-18T19:28:19Z phoe: it seems that the ctype vocabulary in CCL and SBCL is similar
2019-11-18T19:28:35Z phoe: so maybe my anti-range merger will be fully portable across the two
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2019-11-18T19:31:47Z Bike: i think i see what's going on with the cons type one.
2019-11-18T19:32:07Z Bike: the (cons :simple-subtypep) method checks both subtypeps, obviously, and gets NIL NIL and T T for my example, respectively.
2019-11-18T19:32:17Z Bike: then it merges those into NIL T
2019-11-18T19:32:22Z Bike: seems easy to fix
2019-11-18T19:32:54Z Bike: probably what it's meant to have is that if one of the inner subtypeps is NIL T, the conses' subtypep is NIL T regardless of the other one.
2019-11-18T19:33:36Z jasom: heh, I just ran the boyer test from the gabriel benchmarks (chosen alphabetically).  It's ~200 times slower in the browser, so it seems to just be an across-the-board difference in performance between the two JVMs.
2019-11-18T19:33:46Z phoe: wait a second
2019-11-18T19:33:49Z phoe: why does it merge it into NIL T
2019-11-18T19:34:11Z phoe: NIL NIL means that the compiler just dun goofed
2019-11-18T19:34:17Z phoe: so the result is undefined
2019-11-18T19:35:05Z phoe: jasom: welcome to the future
2019-11-18T19:36:21Z phoe: Bike: when you have something postworthy, please post at https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/249 - my brain is unable to comprehend Lisp right now, so please treat anything that you tell me as lost
2019-11-18T19:36:26Z Bike: ok.
2019-11-18T19:37:09Z phoe: I'll be better tomorrow, but today I've been digging into the type system for about eight hours straight
2019-11-18T19:37:18Z phoe: I need to run my GC overnight
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2019-11-18T19:52:09Z Bike: ppppposted
2019-11-18T19:53:15Z phoe: Bike: there is no (satisfies bar) in the last example
2019-11-18T19:53:18Z phoe: but there is one in your post
2019-11-18T19:53:25Z phoe: did you mean foo2?
2019-11-18T19:53:40Z Bike: fxd
2019-11-18T19:53:45Z Bike: i did
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2019-11-18T19:54:26Z phoe: спасибо
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2019-11-18T19:55:37Z phoe: I'll digest that slowly and come up with a fix mayhaps
2019-11-18T19:55:48Z phoe: and a few more ANSI-TEST tests
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2019-11-18T19:56:10Z Bike: well, i could probably write a fix, it's just that `if` form is messed up
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2019-11-18T19:56:26Z Bike: that that*
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2019-11-18T19:57:02Z phoe: go ahead then
2019-11-18T19:57:17Z Bike: yokay
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2019-11-18T19:58:28Z Bike: let me just think back to how to do karnaugh maps with 3 valued logic
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2019-11-18T20:06:43Z pjb: Bike: you need 8 boxes.
2019-11-18T20:07:22Z pjb: 2*4 with 2 groupings: 2|2  and 1|2|1
2019-11-18T20:07:41Z Bike: actually i guess what i actually want is a 4d kmap, except i absolutely don't want that
2019-11-18T20:07:48Z pjb: Oh, sorry, 3-value.   So 3*3 nine boxes.
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2019-11-18T20:08:36Z pjb: Bike: I understand. I would write a program to generate them.
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2019-11-18T20:23:07Z mooch2: hey, how would people here feel about me making an irc channel specifically for emulators written in lisp?
2019-11-18T20:23:54Z mooch2: if everyone's fine with it, i'll ask the ops here if they'd like ops in the channel
2019-11-18T20:23:55Z dlowe: why would we care
2019-11-18T20:24:07Z dlowe: we don't own irc or lisp
2019-11-18T20:24:07Z mooch2: i dunno, because it's an interesting subject?
2019-11-18T20:24:23Z mooch2: i mean, i just wanna see if people are interested
2019-11-18T20:25:19Z dlowe: I assure you that no one will stop you
2019-11-18T20:25:21Z Xach: mooch2: i am interested in blog posts about such things but not as much ongoing discussion
2019-11-18T20:25:34Z Xach: I like to see neat things like that
2019-11-18T20:26:06Z dlowe: and then you can see how many people are interested by people joining your channel
2019-11-18T20:26:08Z phoe: mooch2: that sounds kinda too specific to warrant a new channel
2019-11-18T20:26:13Z phoe: emulation scene is small, Lisp scene is small
2019-11-18T20:26:20Z phoe: an intersection of the two is small²
2019-11-18T20:26:34Z phoe: I'd suggest you actually join an emulation channel of sorts since that's the primary objective
2019-11-18T20:26:35Z mooch2: i mean, there's apparently a decently-sized scene for lisp gamedev
2019-11-18T20:26:51Z phoe: and refer to #lisp or #lispgames for any kind of support or gossip or sharing you might have
2019-11-18T20:26:57Z mooch2: i wanna specifically talk about emulation development as it relates to lisp
2019-11-18T20:27:17Z phoe: lisp isn't the main topic in emulation though, lisp is a tool
2019-11-18T20:27:39Z mooch2: wait, switch emulation development and lisp around, sorry lol
2019-11-18T20:27:48Z phoe: yet another implementation of Turing machine
2019-11-18T20:27:59Z mooch2: i wanna be able to talk with people about how to implement blablabla emulator thing in lisp
2019-11-18T20:28:07Z _death: there have been posts by lispers about emulators, e.g. https://ahefner.livejournal.com/20528.html
2019-11-18T20:28:09Z phoe: so do that here
2019-11-18T20:28:18Z phoe: if you know what you need to implement
2019-11-18T20:28:19Z PuercoPope: jasom: I wonder how feasible would be to use clasp to compile CL to WebAssembly through LLVM's WebAssembly backend
2019-11-18T20:28:24Z phoe: then that's a concrete Lisp topic to talk about
2019-11-18T20:28:24Z mooch2: yeah but i don't want to keep other conversations from happening here!
2019-11-18T20:28:59Z phoe: mooch2: the channel is not all that high-traffic
2019-11-18T20:29:07Z mooch2: yeah, true, but still
2019-11-18T20:30:06Z jasom: PuercoPope: clasp is a maybe, if it uses C++ exceptions for non-local transfers of control.  IIRC ECL and CLISP are both a no-go for webassembly due to the way they do non-local control flow transfers.
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2019-11-18T20:30:11Z phoe: mooch2: I'd worry only after and if someone tells you to take your discussion elsewhere
2019-11-18T20:30:20Z mooch2: aight fine...
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2019-11-18T20:30:23Z phoe: I say that writing an X emulator in Lisp is a #lisp topic
2019-11-18T20:30:37Z phoe: and so are the Lisp-specific issues that might arise
2019-11-18T20:30:40Z mooch2: well, anyway
2019-11-18T20:31:01Z jasom: PuercoPope: does clasp have an interpreter?  Last time I checked, LLVM wouldn't run under webassembly so compilation in the browser is also problematic.
2019-11-18T20:31:42Z LdBeth: Sure, so how to emulate CPU clocks?
2019-11-18T20:31:54Z mooch2: i'm currently working on a multi-system emulator project if anybody wants to contribute https://gitlab.com/cl-emu
2019-11-18T20:32:03Z mooch2: so far, i'm starting with the nes
2019-11-18T20:32:16Z dlowe: seems like the easiest thing to do (which wouldn't be easy) would be to treat wasm as an sbcl backend and cross-compile the works
2019-11-18T20:32:45Z mooch2: but anybody's free to start their own cores
2019-11-18T20:33:04Z mooch2: the only rule is one core per real device, and one core per real machine
2019-11-18T20:33:07Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2019-11-18T20:33:08Z mooch2: *real machine type
2019-11-18T20:33:53Z PuercoPope: jasom: I'm not to familiar with Clasp. Last time I tried building it was last year.
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2019-11-18T20:35:24Z Bike: yes, it probably wouldn't be good for webassembly
2019-11-18T20:36:20Z phoe: mooch2: per real machine? what do you mean?
2019-11-18T20:36:32Z mooch2: like, one for neses, one for snes, one for the mega drive, etc
2019-11-18T20:36:42Z mooch2: one for the pc and its clones
2019-11-18T20:37:22Z jasom: Really a bytecode targeting lisp coupled with a fast js/webassembly interpreter for the bytecode would probably be best.  Webassembly is just not a great target for lisp.
2019-11-18T20:37:58Z phoe: oh, core as in an object that implements target system
2019-11-18T20:38:07Z phoe: I thought for a moment that you meant a physical CPU core
2019-11-18T20:38:10Z phoe: welp, I got confused, sorry
2019-11-18T20:38:14Z mooch2: nah lol
2019-11-18T20:38:59Z jasom: dlowe: that's probably only marginally easier than getting jscl to be more spec compliant.
2019-11-18T20:39:12Z mooch2: i also want to create a frontend that can handle any type of system, and change properties of the systems, such as which software it's running, flipping a floppy disk, or changing the cpu in the case of computers
2019-11-18T20:39:26Z dlowe: jasom: I'm also thinking about the quality of the result
2019-11-18T20:39:47Z phoe: mooch2: smells like reimplementing RetroArch
2019-11-18T20:39:52Z mooch2: kind of
2019-11-18T20:39:53Z dlowe: jasom: and that sbcl is meant to be ported to different cpu archs
2019-11-18T20:39:57Z mooch2: more like reimplementing higan
2019-11-18T20:40:23Z mooch2: though it would be best if the machine cores were plugins that you switched between
2019-11-18T20:40:29Z mooch2: i don't know how to do that in lisp though
2019-11-18T20:40:36Z jasom: dlowe: I've yet to find a single example of wasm generating new wasm to be loaded at runtime though.
2019-11-18T20:40:58Z dlowe: jasom: hm. okay, that would be a problem
2019-11-18T20:41:01Z jasom: dlowe: also sbcl seems to assume a stored-program machine, which wasm is not.
2019-11-18T20:41:02Z phoe: jasom: why would that be forbidden though
2019-11-18T20:41:15Z phoe: generate wasm, pass it around via javascript, load it
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2019-11-18T20:41:32Z phoe: as long as two wasm programs can link together that shouldn't be an issue
2019-11-18T20:41:38Z Shinmera: dlowe: WASM is not ASM.
2019-11-18T20:41:54Z jasom: phoe: but I think that implies a javascript shim for calling from one wasm linking unit to another (I haven't read the spec closely)
2019-11-18T20:42:17Z phoe: mooch2: plugins are doable - for instance your cores can be CLOS objects and common functionality can be declared via generic functions, and implemented by defining methods on the GFs.
2019-11-18T20:42:37Z phoe: mooch2: read up on Practical Common Lisp's CLOS chapter to get the CLOS basics
2019-11-18T20:42:42Z mooch2: nono, i mean dynamically loading them at runtime
2019-11-18T20:42:51Z phoe: that is doable
2019-11-18T20:42:58Z mooch2: so you don't have to distribute ALL the cores when you distribute the frontend
2019-11-18T20:42:59Z phoe: you have #'LOAD available for lowlevel stuff
2019-11-18T20:43:02Z jasom: mooch2: (load) is a thing.
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2019-11-18T20:43:23Z mooch2: yeah, but i'm planning for each core to be multiple files and shit
2019-11-18T20:43:27Z phoe: for more intricate modules you can use ASDF
2019-11-18T20:43:30Z phoe: and possibly Quicklisp
2019-11-18T20:43:32Z mooch2: ah, okay
2019-11-18T20:43:47Z LdBeth: #'compile is another
2019-11-18T20:43:57Z phoe: so you can (ql:quickload '(:my-emu :my-emu.nes :my-emu.snes :my-emu.psx))
2019-11-18T20:44:02Z mooch2: ah, fair enough
2019-11-18T20:44:14Z jasom: phoe, dlowe, basically each compilation in a wasm implementation would require a dlopen() call to get it into the same linear memory space.
2019-11-18T20:44:14Z mooch2: i want to like, make dlls or something though
2019-11-18T20:44:14Z phoe: and this will not pull in :my-emu.amiga unless any of these systems depends on these
2019-11-18T20:44:47Z phoe: mooch2: you can distribute FASL files if you want to. Source distribution is very much preferable though.
2019-11-18T20:44:47Z mooch2: i want the frontend to have a gui option for selecting a dll or something to load in and use as a system
2019-11-18T20:45:08Z phoe: why DLL? just list all available cores
2019-11-18T20:45:08Z mooch2: i mean, i am still going to contribute source, but i don't want to pull in EVERYTHING every time i load the frontend
2019-11-18T20:45:09Z dlowe: okay, so I guess a bytecode implementation like clisp would be a better option.
2019-11-18T20:45:20Z jasom: mooch2: you can use asdf to generate a bundle if you prefer, but a source-tree is only different from a dll at the file-system level.
2019-11-18T20:45:27Z phoe: mooch2: I don't understand, why would you pull in everything
2019-11-18T20:45:37Z phoe: load just :my-emu.gui
2019-11-18T20:45:38Z jasom: mooch2: see e.g. clack which includes many backends, but only loads a backend when it is used.
2019-11-18T20:45:51Z phoe: and then you can load :my-emu.nes when a NES game is booted up
2019-11-18T20:46:02Z White_Flame: mooch2: btw, since this is lisp, you should start with dynarec by default
2019-11-18T20:46:03Z phoe: you can do that at execution time without any problem
2019-11-18T20:46:04Z mooch2: because i'd have to in order to be able to have per-system configuration options
2019-11-18T20:46:10Z phoe: no
2019-11-18T20:46:11Z phoe: why
2019-11-18T20:46:31Z phoe: you can configure a system without loading all of its internal junk
2019-11-18T20:46:33Z mooch2: White_Flame, no? dynarecs can't be cycle-accurate
2019-11-18T20:46:43Z LdBeth: mooch2 is maybe think about SML like functors
2019-11-18T20:47:24Z mooch2: phoe, yeah, but i want the machine system to have like, the configuration options defined in a structure in that system, and then i'd only load the configuration options if the core is loaded
2019-11-18T20:47:27Z mooch2: wtf sml
2019-11-18T20:47:29Z mooch2: *wtf is sml
2019-11-18T20:47:44Z sjl_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_ML
2019-11-18T20:48:00Z White_Flame: mooch2: you could still be cycle accurate, and still likely maintain far better speed
2019-11-18T20:48:09Z phoe: mooch2: I don't understand then
2019-11-18T20:48:11Z hortiel_: can we avoid js using lisp
2019-11-18T20:48:26Z hortiel_: why everyone hates lisp.. although I love it
2019-11-18T20:48:27Z mooch2: White_Flame, not with a dynarec!
2019-11-18T20:48:27Z phoe: if you distribute a DLL then you will have to load that DDL anyway
2019-11-18T20:48:31Z hortiel_: thinking of learning it
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2019-11-18T20:48:40Z phoe: so if you want to be able to configure all cores then you have to load all the DLLs anyway
2019-11-18T20:48:42Z mooch2: phoe, i dunno...
2019-11-18T20:48:49Z mooch2: okay, fair enough :/
2019-11-18T20:48:51Z dlowe: hortiel_: so you love lisp but you've never learned or used it?
2019-11-18T20:48:55Z mooch2: sorry, i'm dumb lol
2019-11-18T20:48:55Z phoe: this is not a Lisp problem
2019-11-18T20:48:59Z White_Flame: mooch2: lisp sexprs are a way better codegen than outputting asm instructions in normal dynarecs.
2019-11-18T20:48:59Z phoe: this is an architectural issue
2019-11-18T20:49:09Z hortiel_: dlowe: yes, first love then learn
2019-11-18T20:49:14Z phoe: you want to be able to configure your system without loading it
2019-11-18T20:49:22Z hortiel_: I decided metaprogramming is great
2019-11-18T20:49:33Z phoe: that is possible, for example by splitting your system into my-emu.nes.config and my-emu.nes.backend
2019-11-18T20:49:36Z LdBeth: hortiel_: JavaScript these days is like assembly. You may avoid it depends on what kind of tasks you’d like to do
2019-11-18T20:49:55Z phoe: load only :my-emu.nes.config at startup and use the configuration options that it presents to you
2019-11-18T20:50:00Z hortiel_: js is spreading like virus
2019-11-18T20:50:16Z mooch2: White_Flame, except dynarecs rely on pre-decoding the opcodes and then running them all as one big block
2019-11-18T20:50:17Z phoe: and then when you want to fire up a game then load the heavy machinery in :my-emu.nes.backend that depends on :my-emu.nes.config
2019-11-18T20:50:24Z mooch2: but for cycle accuracy, you can't do that
2019-11-18T20:50:28Z mooch2: phoe, ahhhh okay
2019-11-18T20:51:46Z LdBeth: mooch2: that’s what I want to ask, how do you control cycle accuracy
2019-11-18T20:52:07Z mooch2: LdBeth, ???
2019-11-18T20:52:10Z mooch2: what do you mean?
2019-11-18T20:52:29Z White_Flame: mooch2: usually cycle accuracy requiring events between various chips happen in a minority of cycles.  Being able to unroll and partially reevaluate instructions can get you better speed in the straightforward portions, and run slow paths when accesses intersect, depending on the architecture
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2019-11-18T20:53:00Z LdBeth: mooch2 How to ensure every OPCODE runs in constant time?
2019-11-18T20:53:06Z White_Flame: it's an interesting field that since Lisp can do much better codegen, can yield better speed than C-based emulators that have to do everything more interpreted
2019-11-18T20:53:17Z mooch2: LdBeth, that's... not the problem lol
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2019-11-18T20:53:53Z jasom: White_Flame: many emulators do not hold that the minority of cycles require cycle accuracy because the majority of instructions will access a shared memory bus.
2019-11-18T20:55:01Z jasom: okay, maybe not majority, but a large minority at least.
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2019-11-18T20:55:13Z White_Flame: for instance, on a single raster line the more fixed-function chips know what spots are "live".  If the CPU's processing within that line touches one of those locations, you break out of the fast path
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2019-11-18T20:55:15Z pjb: mooch2: 1- you can create a new channel just by joining it. You can "lock" it and become op by using freenode bots, I don't know how, read freenode documentation.
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2019-11-18T20:55:41Z dlowe: mooch2: msg chanserv help
2019-11-18T20:55:46Z mooch2: pjb, i know that, i just wanna try to get people to try joining it
2019-11-18T20:55:48Z mooch2: ???
2019-11-18T20:56:01Z mooch2: i didn't say i was having trouble making the channel or anything lol
2019-11-18T20:56:17Z dlowe: I think you'll get more traction on emu channels
2019-11-18T20:56:42Z LdBeth: mooch2: since you already have a project you can put the channel in your project description
2019-11-18T20:56:51Z pjb: mooch2: 2- there are a lot of different kinds of emulators and they can be written in CL.  It's indeed an interesting subject.  It may be interesting to divert their the discussion to a specific channel, when it becomes too loudly, crowding the general discussion in #lisp.  So if you expect a lot of traffic specifically about emulators in CL (or in lisp in general), it may be interresting to create this channel.
2019-11-18T20:57:03Z oni-on-ion: i've thought of making an emu, would be fun and good excersize and lisp excuse
2019-11-18T20:57:28Z oni-on-ion: there is #lispgames . lots of smarties in there.
2019-11-18T20:57:31Z mooch2: i don't know if there's enough interest though
2019-11-18T20:57:43Z White_Flame: i have a semi-functional ivory chip emulation, but I need some assistance in debugging
2019-11-18T20:57:45Z mooch2: oni-on-ion, the skills of gamedev basically don't apply to emudev at all
2019-11-18T20:57:47Z White_Flame: well, mostly-functional I shoudl say
2019-11-18T20:57:57Z pjb: mooch2: ttps://cliki.net/site/search?query=emulator
2019-11-18T20:57:59Z pjb: +h
2019-11-18T20:58:01Z mooch2: White_Flame, i could probably help if i had the docs
2019-11-18T20:58:13Z oni-on-ion: mooch2, false. performance, non-consing technique, its very helpful. to each their own, though.
2019-11-18T20:58:13Z pjb: mooch2: https://cliki.net/IRC
2019-11-18T20:58:26Z mooch2: oni-on-ion, wat
2019-11-18T20:58:28Z oni-on-ion: (i got the subtext "emu is more sErIoUs than game engine")
2019-11-18T20:58:31Z White_Flame: mooch2: I followed the docs, but it goes off into la-la land on bootup execution
2019-11-18T20:58:44Z White_Flame: across millions of instruction executions
2019-11-18T20:58:51Z pjb: A good ESP32 emulator.
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2019-11-18T20:58:54Z mooch2: White_Flame, yeah but you might've made an error in your coding of the info from the docs
2019-11-18T20:59:03Z White_Flame: so my next step will otherwise be to disassemble and try to figure out what it "should" be doing
2019-11-18T20:59:22Z mooch2: pjb, ...why are you bringing up so much irrelevant stuff?
2019-11-18T20:59:29Z White_Flame: also, the docs are scattered leaked internal documents
2019-11-18T21:00:01Z mooch2: ah
2019-11-18T21:00:07Z LdBeth: White_Flame: MacIvory?
2019-11-18T21:00:07Z White_Flame: and the VLM itself is not documented at all, and has unknown variances from the hardware ivory envrionment
2019-11-18T21:00:08Z mooch2: wait, isn't it illegal to use them then?
2019-11-18T21:00:13Z mooch2: vlm?
2019-11-18T21:00:19Z White_Flame: symbolics vlm
2019-11-18T21:00:26Z mooch2: what is that though
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2019-11-18T21:00:49Z White_Flame: dec alpha emulator for symbolics ivory lisp machiens
2019-11-18T21:00:56Z mooch2: ah okay
2019-11-18T21:01:01Z LdBeth: mooch2: I think the patent just expired last year
2019-11-18T21:01:07Z mooch2: ???
2019-11-18T21:01:27Z mooch2: it's not the fact that it's patented, it's the fact that those docs are copyrighted
2019-11-18T21:01:40Z White_Flame: where do you think all the console emulator docs came from?
2019-11-18T21:01:55Z White_Flame: video game consoles
2019-11-18T21:02:06Z mooch2: ...mate, first off, they're not all from illegal sources
2019-11-18T21:02:08Z oni-on-ion: when i had GBA dev docs they were pirated and leaked (around 2001)
2019-11-18T21:02:27Z mooch2: secondly, it's still illegal according to the relevant court cases about emulation
2019-11-18T21:02:57Z oni-on-ion: more fun to me is to create Fantasy Console. especially with [common] lisp being somewhat halfway there ^_^
2019-11-18T21:03:24Z mooch2: that's not interesting to me tbh
2019-11-18T21:03:27Z White_Flame: most are from illegal sources.  they just had sceners rewrite summary docs with the descriptions of their findings of the most critical portions
2019-11-18T21:03:35Z mooch2: ...
2019-11-18T21:03:44Z mooch2: yeah, but IT'S STILL ILLEGAL
2019-11-18T21:03:57Z mooch2: and if you're caught, you can be sent to jail and shit!
2019-11-18T21:04:07Z White_Flame: but yeahh, lots of hardware edge cases would have been experimentally discovered, and not be officially documnted at all
2019-11-18T21:04:29Z mooch2: i know
2019-11-18T21:04:36Z LdBeth: Copyright is just you don’t release the doc publicly
2019-11-18T21:04:45Z White_Flame: I don't recall a single case of legal trouble around emu devs based on copyrights of leaked docs
2019-11-18T21:05:04Z White_Flame: but, we're also getting fairly far off topic,  #lispcafe also exists
2019-11-18T21:05:05Z phoe: 1) emulators were, are, and will be developed despite emulation being a huge grey area, 2) emulation legality is #lispcafe more than #lisp
2019-11-18T21:05:12Z phoe high-fives White_Flame 
2019-11-18T21:05:20Z oni-on-ion: i feel we may be going slightly outside discussion of CL
2019-11-18T21:05:51Z mooch2: phoe, emulators aren't the grey area
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2019-11-18T21:06:01Z mooch2: making them using illegally acquired docs is
2019-11-18T21:06:05Z mooch2: emulators are fully legal
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2019-11-18T21:06:32Z phoe: mooch2: 1) I see, 2) #lispcafe
2019-11-18T21:06:57Z oni-on-ion: noo #cafe is busy with a serious discussion
2019-11-18T21:07:15Z White_Flame: I need to leave, but using "illegal" docs does not mmake the software illegal at all.  The software is fine.  Only your possession of the docs might be actionable
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2019-11-18T21:07:59Z mooch2: White_Flame, it does though
2019-11-18T21:08:07Z mooch2: according to us case law, anyway
2019-11-18T21:08:30Z mooch2: just as using an illegally acquired sdk makes any software compiled with it illegal
2019-11-18T21:09:00Z pjb: mooch2: what stuff do you deem irrelevant?
2019-11-18T21:09:15Z LdBeth: Liking software is different case
2019-11-18T21:09:16Z pjb: mooch2: if you create a lisp channel, you should register it on cliki.net/IRC !!!
2019-11-18T21:09:20Z mooch2: oh
2019-11-18T21:09:21Z mooch2: sorry
2019-11-18T21:09:31Z mooch2: i thought you wanted me to read it for info or something
2019-11-18T21:09:34Z pjb: mooch2: if you're interested in lisp X, the first thing to do is to search X on cliki.net !!!
2019-11-18T21:09:43Z mooch2: da heck is lisp x?
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2019-11-18T21:09:50Z pjb: mooch2: I'd be interested in having an ESP32 emulator written in lisp !!!
2019-11-18T21:09:51Z mooch2: oh wait durr
2019-11-18T21:09:52Z mooch2: sorry lol
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2019-11-18T21:10:03Z pjb: Everything is fucking relevant !!!
2019-11-18T21:10:12Z mooch2: pjb, only if i can find a system that uses an esp32
2019-11-18T21:10:14Z pjb: and X is anything you want, such as an emulaotr.
2019-11-18T21:10:19Z mooch2: and acquire a dump of that system
2019-11-18T21:10:29Z oni-on-ion: i've a feeling that illegal docs would lead to enough suspicion. for example if another company made an exact Tesla clone. but then, RMS at MIT labs ...
2019-11-18T21:11:03Z LdBeth: Haha
2019-11-18T21:11:15Z LdBeth: We all know that
2019-11-18T21:13:11Z mooch2: oni-on-ion, not really, it's still describing the same things you'd find reverse engineering the thing
2019-11-18T21:13:24Z pjb: mooch2: https://www.espressif.com/sites/default/files/documentation/esp32_technical_reference_manual_en.pdf
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2019-11-18T21:13:53Z pjb: mooch2: emulators are not written from dumps of the silicon design, but from the manual describing the processor.
2019-11-18T21:13:54Z mooch2: pjb, i need to find a system that uses that processor first, i told you!
2019-11-18T21:13:59Z mooch2: pjb, i know that
2019-11-18T21:14:06Z pjb: What for?
2019-11-18T21:14:12Z mooch2: ...to test my code?
2019-11-18T21:14:22Z mooch2: seriously, do you think i'm stupid or something?
2019-11-18T21:14:24Z pjb: The purpose of the emulator is to help develop software fo that processor!
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2019-11-18T21:14:38Z pjb: mooch2: you start to look stupid, indeed.
2019-11-18T21:14:44Z mooch2: ...
2019-11-18T21:14:56Z mooch2: pjb, no, the purpose of an emulator IS TO PRESERVE THE HARDWARE IT EMULATES
2019-11-18T21:14:57Z mooch2: FUCK
2019-11-18T21:14:57Z Xach: If you're new here, it is not always clear that you can and should ignore everything pjb writes in any medium.
2019-11-18T21:15:06Z mooch2: ah, okay, thanks Xach
2019-11-18T21:15:37Z mooch2: Xach, are they just a troll, or?
2019-11-18T21:15:40Z pjb: mooch2: emulators are written in general BEFORE the hardware is completed, to let software engineer develop the software at the same time the hardware engineers develop the hardware!
2019-11-18T21:15:56Z pjb: mooch2: and beware of people advising you to ignore people…
2019-11-18T21:16:07Z Xach: Knows CL, but aggressive and vile, not worth the trouble.
2019-11-18T21:16:26Z mooch2: ah :/
2019-11-18T21:16:31Z phoe: pjb: you are semantically correct but people commonly refering to emulators usually refer to retro-emulators where you already have all the software but lack a physical machine.
2019-11-18T21:16:38Z oni-on-ion: mooch2, yea but isnt reverse engineering wrong/bad ? in legal terms that is
2019-11-18T21:16:42Z mooch2: oni-on-ion, no?
2019-11-18T21:16:48Z mooch2: it's protected under the dmca lol
2019-11-18T21:17:02Z phoe: NES, SNES, VLM, et cetera, et cetera.
2019-11-18T21:17:06Z mooch2: mate, emulators have already been sued, and won
2019-11-18T21:17:10Z oni-on-ion: if its protected, then does that not mean YES ?
2019-11-18T21:17:24Z mooch2: no, you're allowed to reverse engineer
2019-11-18T21:17:30Z mooch2: i meant that that right is protected
2019-11-18T21:17:35Z oni-on-ion: oh, did not know that. =)
2019-11-18T21:17:55Z mooch2: Xach, are you interested in my emulator project at all, btw?
2019-11-18T21:18:12Z Xach: mooch2: Not in ongoing discussion, but interested in periodic info
2019-11-18T21:18:12Z oni-on-ion: to take a short tangent, we should have the specs/schematics for all parts in our iphones shouldnt we ?
2019-11-18T21:18:23Z mooch2: we don't lol
2019-11-18T21:18:28Z Xach: mooch2: I like neat stuff in any form but can't always follow it in realtime.
2019-11-18T21:18:37Z mooch2: Xach, i mean, you could contribute if you want
2019-11-18T21:18:50Z mooch2: that doesn't have to be done in realtime
2019-11-18T21:18:54Z phoe: mooch2: many of us have little time to spare on contributing whatsoever
2019-11-18T21:19:02Z phoe: there's lots to be done and few free hands
2019-11-18T21:19:02Z Xach: mooch2: oh, I'm afraid I can't contribute
2019-11-18T21:19:06Z oni-on-ion: phoe, owning rom-dumps are wrong though , no?
2019-11-18T21:19:08Z mooch2: ah :/
2019-11-18T21:19:22Z phoe: oni-on-ion: these are obviously copyrighted, same as pirated PC games
2019-11-18T21:19:25Z mooch2: oni-on-ion, only if you didn't dump them from the real hardware yourself
2019-11-18T21:19:33Z oni-on-ion: what system(s) are you planning to emulate ?
2019-11-18T21:19:41Z mooch2: oni-on-ion, anything with a cpu lol
2019-11-18T21:20:03Z oni-on-ion: also of course we should be aware of the difference between Emulator and Simulator. i think pjb referred more to Simulator when considering hardware development
2019-11-18T21:20:20Z oni-on-ion: mooch2, ahh. i was looking at GBA because its awesome. or NDS its bigger brother =)
2019-11-18T21:20:43Z oni-on-ion: phoe, the hardware is not copyrighted?
2019-11-18T21:20:46Z pjb: So you'd say that qemu should be renamed qsim.
2019-11-18T21:20:57Z mooch2: oni-on-ion, ??? no, it's patented lol
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2019-11-18T21:21:05Z mooch2: also, a rom isn't hardware, it's software
2019-11-18T21:21:14Z oni-on-ion is learning the legal differences between hardware and software =)
2019-11-18T21:21:18Z mooch2: software burnt into a chip
2019-11-18T21:21:21Z oni-on-ion: pjb, yeh and possibly VirtualBox etc ?
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2019-11-18T21:21:31Z oni-on-ion: mooch2,  ah right
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2019-11-18T21:29:09Z LdBeth: mooch2: Can ROM persevere the PCB design of cartridges
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2019-11-18T21:30:35Z oni-on-ion: i was helping der group whom ripped/dumped the gamecube eeprom it was fun but lost my cube =) i was a pirate at the time so couldnt tell from there if it were immoral or illegal
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2019-11-19T02:16:37Z equwal: Been looking for a CL math library. GSLL looked good, but has compiler errors.
2019-11-19T02:19:24Z no-defun-allowed: What kind of maths?
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2019-11-19T03:20:44Z pjb: equwal: you could use maxima.
2019-11-19T03:21:01Z pjb: equwal: maxima mathematical functions can be used from lisp.
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2019-11-19T03:22:55Z equwal: Think that is sufficient.
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2019-11-19T03:23:46Z equwal: no-defun-allowed: CL lacks lots of basic functions it would be nice to have. Like today I wanted to compute some permutations, and had to write the code manually (when it could have been a library).
2019-11-19T03:31:35Z pjb: Strange...  (com.informatimago.clext.association::permutations '(1 2 3)) #| --> ((1 2 3) (2 1 3) (2 3 1) (1 3 2) (3 1 2) (3 2 1)) |#
2019-11-19T03:33:18Z no-defun-allowed: There is alexandria:map-permutations at least.
2019-11-19T03:35:23Z oni-on-ion: anything in here ? https://github.com/alex-gutev/generic-cl#lazy-sequences
2019-11-19T03:35:39Z oni-on-ion: oops, disregard the #anchor
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2019-11-19T04:46:33Z aeth: permutations would be pretty low on my 'nice to have built into a language' list, below regexp, and I rarely use regexp
2019-11-19T04:47:39Z pjb: The uselessness of permutations comes from their exponential output (and compute time).
2019-11-19T04:48:50Z aeth: yeah, elegant, simple math tends to be at odds with efficient computation.
2019-11-19T04:49:48Z aeth: but when the hard algorithm for $thing is on Wikipedia and it's not that many lines (incomprehensible lines, but still not many lines)...
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2019-11-19T05:34:04Z ebrasca: aeth: I think some day we can have some algorith optimizer for math functions.
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2019-11-19T05:48:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-19T05:55:03Z loke: ebrasca: What would such algorithm do?
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2019-11-19T06:02:30Z ebrasca: loke: For example replace (+ (* x x) (* x x) (* x x)) with (* 3 x x) or someting better.
2019-11-19T06:03:40Z no-defun-allowed: I think most compilers will have optimisations for that kind of thing.
2019-11-19T06:05:19Z aeth: except if the type is floating point or could be floating point
2019-11-19T06:05:32Z aeth: well, some might optimize anyway, but that's overoptimizing
2019-11-19T06:05:50Z no-defun-allowed: But apparently SBCL and Clozure do not? It seems fairly straightforward.
2019-11-19T06:05:55Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: Ah yeah, we have to deal with floats.
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2019-11-19T06:06:18Z aeth: and when they're not floats, you still get generic arithmetic unless you can bound the problem because they could become bignums
2019-11-19T06:06:46Z no-defun-allowed: Eliding two of the three multiplications sounds reasonable though.
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2019-11-19T06:27:28Z LdBeth: But why would anyone write such kind of code?
2019-11-19T06:27:54Z LdBeth: Even auto generated code can avoid that easily
2019-11-19T06:35:07Z loke: ebrasca: Maxima implements this
2019-11-19T06:36:02Z loke: You have a simplifier function that takes an expression, and simplifies it, such as: ((MTIMES) x x) → ((MEXPT) x)
2019-11-19T06:36:09Z loke: sorry ((MEXPT) x 2)
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2019-11-19T06:45:00Z ebrasca: loke: Can maxima replace (loop :for i :from 1 :to 10 :sum i) with someting like (/ (* (+ 1 10) 10) 2) ?
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2019-11-19T06:50:16Z no-defun-allowed: Maxima doesn't work on arbitrary CL code, and I don't think it has too many imperative constructs either.
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2019-11-19T06:52:27Z ebrasca: I like to have optimizations like this.
2019-11-19T07:00:28Z aeth: you'd want a separate macro for that because, well, once you go declarative you lose a lot of determinism. Changeg one thing and suddenly O(1) to O(n!)
2019-11-19T07:00:32Z aeth: *Change
2019-11-19T07:01:15Z aeth: Summation identities should be simple enough to put in a macro
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2019-11-19T07:04:31Z loke: ebrasca: Yes
2019-11-19T07:04:55Z loke: It also expands sum(1/x^2, x, 1, inf) to pi^6/6
2019-11-19T07:05:07Z loke: pi^2/6
2019-11-19T07:05:32Z no-defun-allowed: I tried sum(x, x, 1, n) and didn't get the identity or anything like that.
2019-11-19T07:05:39Z loke: Since all Maxima equations are expressed as Lisp structures, you can easily use it programatically
2019-11-19T07:06:16Z loke: no-defun-allowed: try this: sum(x, x, 1, n),simpsum
2019-11-19T07:06:28Z loke: it returns (n^2+n)/2
2019-11-19T07:06:30Z no-defun-allowed: Right then.
2019-11-19T07:10:30Z aeth: This isn't particularly hard to program up. It can get messy later on but still... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summation#Identities
2019-11-19T07:10:39Z aeth: And it's a "zero cost abstraction"
2019-11-19T07:10:47Z aeth: (if you put it in a loop-like macro)
2019-11-19T07:11:31Z aeth: iirc, I started doing something along those lines for my Project Euler solutions, but never cleaned it up enough to be useful
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2019-11-19T07:12:17Z edgar-rft: Doesn't have Norvig in PAIP such a thing, where he tries to simplify math code?
2019-11-19T07:13:56Z aeth: just summations is a simpler problem, unless that's what he did
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2019-11-19T07:21:43Z aeth: the problem with rules is that you can never have enough rules in your system if you don't limit your scope
2019-11-19T07:22:12Z aeth: before you know it, you're going to be saying "sure, I guess integrals are technically in the scope of a summation macro"
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2019-11-19T07:26:00Z ebrasca: aeth: Do you think it is bad to optimize everiting automatically?
2019-11-19T07:26:24Z edgar-rft: For infinite scope you'd need an infinite number of rules. There's always at least one case left. Same why one can't handle *all* real-world problems with laws. :-)
2019-11-19T07:26:39Z ebrasca is thinking on some tipe of AI for optimizing code.
2019-11-19T07:27:15Z aeth: ebrasca: two potential downsides: (1) compilation time or (2) too magical so you can't actually tell what's going on
2019-11-19T07:27:34Z aeth: Machine Learning compiler optimizations would be the ultimate form of #2
2019-11-19T07:27:57Z aeth: Other approaches will probably impact #1
2019-11-19T07:28:30Z ebrasca: aeth: Are you sure about it? Why you can have easy to undestand and very good?
2019-11-19T07:28:34Z edgar-rft: Let's use the Emacs spell-checker for optimizing our code. :-)
2019-11-19T07:28:35Z aeth: I suppose the third downside is that you give up some dynamicness to be optimized. You can see this fairly directly what the currently-optimized CL looks like
2019-11-19T07:28:56Z aeth: ebrasca: If we're going to use Emacs to optimize code, I'll only trust M-x doctor
2019-11-19T07:29:02Z aeth: edgar-rft: ^
2019-11-19T07:29:41Z aeth: ebrasca: afaik optimizations are, well, the goal of optimizations is to take something that's easy to understand and make it hard to understand, but faster, so that the source code is as simple as possible
2019-11-19T07:30:54Z ebrasca: aeth: My undestanting is it is good idea to have AI optimized code.
2019-11-19T07:31:37Z ebrasca: AI can optimize for architectures, hardware and other situations.
2019-11-19T07:32:53Z aeth: The downside if you go too far is that it can be fragile. You wind up with a system you don't really understand and you can only hope to say the right magic words to make it run fast. SQL appears to me like a good example of this.
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2019-11-19T07:38:43Z ebrasca: aeth: What about mixture of human and AI?
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2019-11-19T08:05:03Z p_l: aeth: SQL is very much not such a system, mostly thanks to EXPLAIN and ANALYZE commands
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2019-11-19T08:05:38Z p_l: but the distribution of the knowledge on them is pretty bad
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2019-11-19T08:09:13Z p_l: (the joke goes that if you know how to use EXPLAIN there's a >$300k/year salary waiting for you)
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2019-11-19T09:11:53Z phoe: morniiiing
2019-11-19T09:12:01Z phoe: let us discuss (subtypep `(cons (satisfies foo) (satisfies foo2)) `(cons (not float) t))
2019-11-19T09:12:17Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning ph -- oh
2019-11-19T09:12:32Z phoe: on a fully conforming implementation without FOO or FOO2 defined, is NIL NIL the only valid result?
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2019-11-19T09:18:22Z Josh_2: That's what SBCL does
2019-11-19T09:18:50Z Josh_2: This one isn't as fun as the loop :finally discussion phoe xD
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2019-11-19T09:22:14Z phoe: Josh_2: I don't ask about SBCL, I ask about the standard
2019-11-19T09:22:32Z phoe: also let us not discuss LOOP FINALLY anymore
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2019-11-19T09:22:40Z phoe: I am still sore after the last time
2019-11-19T09:24:04Z ebrasca: phoe: Hi
2019-11-19T09:24:58Z Josh_2: xD
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2019-11-19T09:25:29Z phoe: ebrasca: hey
2019-11-19T09:25:40Z ebrasca: phoe: Do you plan some metup?
2019-11-19T09:25:56Z phoe: ebrasca: nope
2019-11-19T09:26:07Z ebrasca: phoe: How are you going?
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2019-11-19T09:29:41Z phoe: ebrasca: going where? or doing?
2019-11-19T09:29:51Z phoe: I'm doing fine, enjoying some CCL hacking
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2019-11-19T09:36:34Z ebrasca: phoe: Can I convince you to make some Mezzano hacking?
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2019-11-19T09:38:19Z phoe: ebrasca: nope. I am already spending my time on fixing up another implementation.
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2019-11-19T09:40:23Z ebrasca: phoe: My mother always told me I need to invest more stats in charisma
2019-11-19T09:40:52Z phoe: ebrasca: your charisma is fine, it is me who has already found some occupation
2019-11-19T09:41:26Z ebrasca: phoe: Some day I like to meet you in person again.
2019-11-19T09:41:28Z phoe: minion: memo for Bike: we screwed up. CLHS SATISFIES describes the type specifier as: "denotes the set of all objects that satisfy the predicate predicate-name, which must be a symbol whose global function definition is a one-argument predicate."
2019-11-19T09:41:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Bike when he/she/it next speaks.
2019-11-19T09:41:59Z phoe: so (subtypep '(cons (satisfies foo) ...) ...) is meaningless unless #'FOO is defined.
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2019-11-19T09:44:16Z phoe: minion: memo for Bike: but a quick (defun foo (x) (declare (ignore x)) (= 1 (random 2))) and the same for foo2 bar bar2 fix that issue.
2019-11-19T09:44:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Bike when he/she/it next speaks.
2019-11-19T09:45:00Z phoe: This also answers the question I had above - the consequences are undefined so the implementation can return anything or nothing.
2019-11-19T09:45:17Z phoe: ebrasca: European Lisp Symposium next year is where I'll be, I'm also in Cracow all the time
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2019-11-19T10:01:42Z phoe: OK - because of the above, I would request https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/merge_requests/30/diffs to be reviewed.
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2019-11-19T10:05:47Z jackdaniel: good luck, I've heard that a maintainer is a very unresponsive person. first remark: add proper commit message, this does not tell me anything
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2019-11-19T10:08:02Z phoe: OK
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2019-11-19T10:24:27Z jdz: Isn't that a "flaky" test by definition?
2019-11-19T10:25:02Z phoe: Yes, it is flaky by definition.
2019-11-19T10:25:18Z phoe: CCL is overconfident about it though.
2019-11-19T10:25:40Z phoe: As in, it replies with NIL T and that seems not true to me.
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2019-11-19T10:26:42Z phoe: Because that means that CCL is true that t1 is NOT a subtype of t2.
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2019-11-19T10:29:39Z phoe: And as far as I understand, whether t1 is a subtype of t2 depends on a series of coin flips at typechecking time - it might be a subtype, it might not.
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2019-11-19T10:31:02Z jdz: Isn't there a constraint that the same type test for the same value should always return the same value?
2019-11-19T10:32:04Z phoe: Hm. I remember something like that now that you mention it... Let me find it.
2019-11-19T10:32:53Z phoe: SATISFIES does not mention it.
2019-11-19T10:33:09Z phoe: The page for TYPEP also states: A type-specifier of the form (satisfies fn) is handled by applying the function fn to object.
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2019-11-19T10:34:24Z phoe: It also doesn't make too much sense to me - if I have an object with a slot, I can define a SATISFIES type that checks whether the value in that slot is true or false. Naturally, this means that every time I mutate the value of that slot, the "cached" results for SATISFIES are no longer valid.
2019-11-19T10:36:04Z jdz: I don't understand: how can you cache a result of SATISFIES test?  What's the cache key?
2019-11-19T10:36:21Z phoe: "<jdz> Isn't there a constraint that the same type test for the same value should always return the same value?"
2019-11-19T10:36:32Z phoe: your question implies that caching is possible
2019-11-19T10:36:41Z phoe: if the same value is always returned, then we can always cache it
2019-11-19T10:37:11Z jdz: The same result of SATISFIES test for the same value; what' you're saying about the slots is that you're using a different value.
2019-11-19T10:37:21Z phoe: no, not really
2019-11-19T10:37:32Z phoe: I pass the same object to the predicate
2019-11-19T10:37:36Z phoe: the same as in EQ
2019-11-19T10:37:47Z phoe: it is the slots of that instance that are different
2019-11-19T10:38:48Z phoe: (defvar *x* (make-instance 'x)) (slot-frobbed-p *x*) #| -> T |#
2019-11-19T10:39:02Z phoe: (unfrob-slot *x*) (slot-frobbed-p *x* #| -> NIL |#
2019-11-19T10:39:08Z phoe: uh I forgot a closing paren
2019-11-19T10:39:20Z jdz: Well, if time is a parameter for a SATISFIES test, then I don't find such a type very useful :/
2019-11-19T10:39:22Z phoe: but - what happens when you define a type (satisfies slot-frobbed-p)
2019-11-19T10:39:53Z phoe: I know, right? SATISFIES types are basically runtime predicate calls
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2019-11-19T10:43:53Z phoe: but - if there is such a constraint in the spec, then please do let me know
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2019-11-19T10:58:45Z phoe: jackdaniel: added, sorry about the lack of commit message.
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2019-11-19T12:36:59Z phoe: minion: memo for Bike: OK, here is the first rough draft of my range-merging hack. https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1557#1557 Works on CCL, should work on SBCL with minor modifications.
2019-11-19T12:36:59Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Bike when he/she/it next speaks.
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2019-11-19T12:44:46Z phoe: In theory we could skip the whole checking if there any neighboring ctypes and just go straight for trying to find the exclusive points. I'll add that simplified version in the first annotation.
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2019-11-19T13:28:10Z phoe: jackdaniel: I screwed up. I did not format the comment that I inserted properly and I did not re-test the build after inserting the comment.
2019-11-19T13:29:24Z jackdaniel tries to look unsuspiciously and pretend that he didn't merge a broken commit.
2019-11-19T13:30:10Z phoe: no, I fucked up here - it's silly to blame the maintainer
2019-11-19T13:30:51Z jackdaniel: that's why I look unsuspiciously of course
2019-11-19T13:31:58Z phoe: (:
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2019-11-19T13:34:18Z jackdaniel: truth to be told mere illusion of someone looking into things creates a backpressure to "make things right"; I'm not saying it is an illusion in this case of course
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2019-11-19T13:35:52Z pfdietz: Complaining that mutation can make a SATISFIES type declaration no longer hold is the same as complaining that RPLACA can make a CONS type declaration no longer hold.
2019-11-19T13:36:29Z phoe: pfdietz: thanks for a good analogy
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2019-11-19T13:36:40Z jackdaniel: I can imagine satisfies predicate which tells if something has expired
2019-11-19T13:36:52Z jackdaniel: (expiredp timestamp) ; with time it will change its result
2019-11-19T13:36:57Z phoe: the way I understand it, SATISFIES can return arbitrary values on each call of the predicate
2019-11-19T13:37:07Z jackdaniel: yes
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2019-11-19T13:37:21Z phoe: so (defun foo (x) (= 1 (random 2))) is valid for (satisfies foo)
2019-11-19T13:37:33Z jackdaniel: sure
2019-11-19T13:38:08Z phoe: OK - so the ANSI-TEST SUBTYPEP.CONS.44 that I've written seems correct.
2019-11-19T13:38:21Z pfdietz: I generate (SATISFIES EVAL) in some random tests of type propagation.   Have to make sure the thing being checked is not a cons or symbol.
2019-11-19T13:39:33Z phoe: uh wait a second, how is that even conf---
2019-11-19T13:39:37Z phoe looks up the definitions
2019-11-19T13:39:56Z phoe: SATISFY denotes the set of all objects that satisfy the predicate predicate-name, which must be a symbol whose global function definition is a one-argument predicate.
2019-11-19T13:40:00Z phoe: predicate n. a function that returns a generalized boolean as its first value.
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2019-11-19T13:40:35Z phoe: ...welcome to lisp, where every function is a predicate
2019-11-19T13:40:40Z jdz: "Generalized boolean."
2019-11-19T13:40:43Z phoe: yes
2019-11-19T13:40:44Z jdz: Right.
2019-11-19T13:40:49Z phoe: and everything is a generalized boolean
2019-11-19T13:40:56Z phoe: except (values) which just gets coerced into NIL
2019-11-19T13:40:57Z jackdaniel: not really, some functions may signal a condition
2019-11-19T13:41:09Z jackdaniel: other accept no arguments
2019-11-19T13:41:23Z phoe: jackdaniel: I mentioned a predicate, not a one-arg predicate up there (;
2019-11-19T13:41:40Z jackdaniel: (error) ; is it a predicate?
2019-11-19T13:41:59Z jackdaniel: ((lambda () (error)) ; how about this?
2019-11-19T13:42:31Z Bike: zero argument predicate
2019-11-19T13:42:31Z minion: Bike, memo from phoe: we screwed up. CLHS SATISFIES describes the type specifier as: "denotes the set of all objects that satisfy the predicate predicate-name, which must be a symbol whose global function definition is a one-argument predicate."
2019-11-19T13:42:32Z minion: Bike, memo from phoe: but a quick (defun foo (x) (declare (ignore x)) (= 1 (random 2))) and the same for foo2 bar bar2 fix that issue.
2019-11-19T13:42:32Z minion: Bike, memo from phoe: OK, here is the first rough draft of my range-merging hack. https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1557#1557 Works on CCL, should work on SBCL with minor modifications.
2019-11-19T13:42:35Z phoe: there was some sorta predicate in Lisp that was allowed to signal conditions
2019-11-19T13:42:46Z phoe: I remember that discussion
2019-11-19T13:42:47Z Bike: i don't understand the screwup
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2019-11-19T13:43:02Z pfdietz: ENDP?
2019-11-19T13:43:04Z phoe: Bike: in our original discussion, we didn't define the predicate names for SATISFIES
2019-11-19T13:43:15Z Bike: well, yeah, they're hardly relevant.
2019-11-19T13:43:18Z phoe: pfdietz: right, that one
2019-11-19T13:43:19Z jackdaniel: phoe: we work on a definition you've mentioned now, error never returns generalized boolean
2019-11-19T13:43:28Z pfdietz: ENDP was always a strange duck
2019-11-19T13:43:38Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes, you are correct in that case - a function can't return a genbool if it can't return
2019-11-19T13:43:40Z Bike: if there's an implementation of subtypep that actually looks for function definitions i'd be surprised
2019-11-19T13:43:50Z phoe: Bike: you are correct, but conformance is conformance
2019-11-19T13:44:23Z phoe: I would actually be unsurprised if an implementation on high safety checked if these functions exist at typecheck-time and signaled errors if they didn't
2019-11-19T13:45:44Z pfdietz: A def-type-predicate macro, that defines predicates for use in satisfies, but in way that allows the type system to reason about the definitions, could be useful.
2019-11-19T13:45:51Z Bike: at type check time it needs to look up the function anyway...
2019-11-19T13:46:04Z phoe: Bike: uh wait a second
2019-11-19T13:46:13Z phoe: that's an undefined-function error anyway, right
2019-11-19T13:46:26Z phoe: I meant at type-definition time
2019-11-19T13:46:47Z Bike: that would be kind of nasty. you'd need to have functions defined in the compiler.
2019-11-19T13:47:10Z phoe: oh well
2019-11-19T13:47:19Z phoe: consequences are undefined anyway, so we can do what we're doing now.
2019-11-19T13:47:37Z phoe: anyway, I'm munching on the CCL type system to see where I can inject my range-checking stuff.
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2019-11-19T13:48:33Z phoe: and in case you're up for more fun, https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/252 evolved into yet another edge case after your yesterday fix
2019-11-19T13:48:36Z pfdietz: Another thing I'd like to see in CL is something like "if this function is called with arguments of types T1, T2, ... it returns something of type R."
2019-11-19T13:49:05Z Bike: i read a paper on incorporating types like that once
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2019-11-19T13:49:11Z phoe: pfdietz: so basically return type promises that depend on the input types
2019-11-19T13:49:23Z pfdietz: I'm sure it's not an orginal idea.
2019-11-19T13:49:27Z pfdietz: Yes.
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2019-11-19T13:49:47Z jackdaniel: (defun* (xxx :returns nil) ((a integer) (b string)) nil)
2019-11-19T13:49:54Z Bike: so you'd define the type of car as (generic (function (null) null) (function (cons) t)) or something
2019-11-19T13:50:09Z phoe: you'd need the compiler to support that sorta thing so it can utilize that knowledge in its type inference engine
2019-11-19T13:50:34Z pfdietz: Right.   One might even have parameterization:  when called on (CONS ?X T), return ?X.
2019-11-19T13:51:25Z pfdietz: I would not be at all surprised if the scheme world did this somewhere.
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2019-11-19T13:53:22Z Bike: the more stuff like this the more uncomputable type operations get. lips's starts out more uncomputable than most, but still
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2019-11-19T13:55:17Z Bike: for example if you defined foo to have type (forall x (function (x) (cons t x))), then did (loop until (condition) do (setf x (foo x))), inferring the type of x afterward would be kind of a journey, and you'd probably need something to give up and pick cons
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2019-11-19T13:56:07Z jackdaniel: ah, I knew I saw somewhere defun*
2019-11-19T13:56:16Z jackdaniel: in a library defstar there is such a macro
2019-11-19T13:57:49Z Bike: jackdaniel: i mean in this case the idea would be defining multiple input output relationships, since CL already lets you describe one relationship overall
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2019-11-19T13:59:22Z jackdaniel: right
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2019-11-19T14:00:34Z jackdaniel: regarding arg-types -> result-type I'm sure it would be possible to add something for non-standard generic functions, but that would be limited to classes -- imho a good thing
2019-11-19T14:00:38Z jackdaniel: types are a horrible mess
2019-11-19T14:00:48Z jackdaniel: s/types/arbitrary types/
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2019-11-19T14:01:08Z Bike: well in this case it wouldn't have any semantic effect, just be information for the compiler to use
2019-11-19T14:02:25Z trittweiler: There's define-api in named-readtables which expands to an ftype declaim for the functions exported from the package.  (With a nicer syntax, in my opinion, because it takes the type signature separately instead of convoluting it into the parameter list.)  The ftype declaration is nice because it lets sbcl often find type mismatched on compile-time.
2019-11-19T14:02:29Z jackdaniel: but then you'd either need to check the resulting type anyway or trust it foolhardily (like with invalid declarations)
2019-11-19T14:03:15Z Bike: yeah but that's true with any type declaration. this would just let you get more specific declarations, hopefully
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2019-11-19T14:56:20Z pjb: ebrasca: optimizing compilers already transform (* 3 x x) into (let ((reg (* x x))) (+ reg reg reg)) !!!
2019-11-19T14:56:49Z pjb: ebrasca: try it in sbcl, I wouldn't be surprised that both (* 3 x x) and (+ (* x x) (* x x) (* x x)) compile to the same thing.
2019-11-19T14:57:02Z pjb: ebrasca: (or with gcc).
2019-11-19T14:59:43Z jackdaniel: I think that gcc would have a problem with compiling (* 3 x x)
2019-11-19T15:00:42Z pjb: not if you use linc to convert it into C code…
2019-11-19T15:01:26Z jackdaniel: or if you hire a person to rewrite the code, in this spirit we could say that any compiler optimizes anything into whatever, because it may be rewritten by some tool or a person ,)
2019-11-19T15:02:18Z jackdaniel: I wouldn't split that hair in four but some people do it a lot, so I thought I'll join the party
2019-11-19T15:02:42Z pjb: Always fun to do it.  Would have you known about linc if not?
2019-11-19T15:03:52Z jackdaniel: am I benefacted by such knowledge or just burdened? (afk for a while)
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2019-11-19T15:07:28Z pjb: jackdaniel: https://pastebin.com/JmYGG9hq
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2019-11-19T15:12:09Z jackdaniel: I don't think that quicklisp is a sane requirement for testing gcc optimizations (also ditto, "in this spirit we could…")
2019-11-19T15:13:53Z pjb: jackdaniel: use the lisp REPL as a shell!  No choice anyways, chsh /usr/local/bin/ccl has been done.
2019-11-19T15:15:25Z jackdaniel: ^ completely fails as the argument for the thing discussed (a is b because c, but hey, you may z) - I had my share of entertainment, see you \o
2019-11-19T15:16:05Z pjb: jackdaniel: I demonstrated that gcc has no problem compiling (* 3 x x) if you use linc as pre-processor!
2019-11-19T15:16:49Z pjb: jackdaniel: and as the maintainer of ecl, you should be ashamed of your objection, since ecl compiles (* 3 x x) with gcc!!!
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2019-11-19T15:31:07Z ebrasca: pjb: Why gcc?
2019-11-19T15:31:29Z ebrasca: pjb: What is linc ?
2019-11-19T15:33:31Z pjb: ebrasca: see the paste, it shows what linc is.  linc is to C what linj is to Java.
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2019-11-19T15:45:08Z PuercoPope: jasom: One of the main problems I've encountered with JSCL is that it needs 'run-time' support for mapping CL objects to the semantics of JS. You mentioned the numeric tower, bit-vectors also come to mind. Given that wasm can also export functions to the host (JS in the case of browsers), what do you think of using wasm to implement things like integer arithmetic and have JSCL rely on them?
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2019-11-19T16:33:14Z reepca: Is there a way for initforms in DEFSTRUCT to refer to each other? For example, I've got a queue struct and it needs the tail to initially be the head, and the head to initially be a fresh cons cell
2019-11-19T16:35:00Z Shinmera: you can use the :constructor and make the tail be &optional, referring to the head.
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2019-11-19T16:35:42Z Bike: or &aux if you never want to initialize the tail separately, i think
2019-11-19T16:37:10Z pjb: reepca: yes, use &aux, it's made for that.
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2019-11-19T17:15:48Z jackdaniel: pjb: essentially what you say is falsehood, A + B = B; where A is not 0 (licn + gcc = gcc), so it doesn't, well, add up. when you take everything verbatim at least make your claims logical
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2019-11-19T17:17:55Z pjb: jackdaniel: you would have to define formally + for things like linc and gcc…
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2019-11-19T17:23:47Z LdBeth: GG
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2019-11-19T19:17:40Z jasom: PuercoPope: that's fairly reasonable, as is having JSCL compile to an IR and have WASM interpret the IR.
2019-11-19T19:23:35Z PuercoPope: jasom: The 'IR' (or would AST be more accurate) is fairly close to JS and depends on having its data-types. Don't think it would be easy to write a wasm interpreter for that
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2019-11-19T19:36:12Z jasom: PuercoPope: fair enough
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2019-11-20T01:09:59Z equwal: Roswell is a game changer for CL scripting.
2019-11-20T01:11:01Z equwal: I was able to hack together a build script for these font variants in a few hours, whereas I have no idea how I would have done it without Roswell.
2019-11-20T01:11:04Z equwal: https://github.com/equwal/alt-hack/tree/generator.ros
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2019-11-20T01:14:37Z _death: sbcl --script ?
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2019-11-20T01:42:30Z _death: I think a script should be two forms: load the system, apply a function with command line args.. the rest belongs in the system, which can be depended upon by other lisp code
2019-11-20T01:43:43Z equwal: Indeed, my script I linked conflates such things.
2019-11-20T01:43:53Z equwal: It is the first time I have used Roswell.
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2019-11-20T01:57:18Z _death: anyway, been using terminus (with modified lambda) for a decade now, methinks.. all other fonts are unbearable :d
2019-11-20T02:03:39Z equwal: Looks like like a DOS terminal
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2019-11-20T02:05:23Z _death: http://i.imgur.com/YWYcb3a.png
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2019-11-20T02:08:51Z equwal: λ
2019-11-20T02:09:03Z equwal: No wonder you modified that thing, it looks like a tent.
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2019-11-20T02:11:51Z equwal: https://spensertruex.com/static/terminus.png
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2019-11-20T02:14:08Z equwal: https://spensertruex.com/static/hack-font.png
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2019-11-20T02:16:57Z _death: if you change the font size it looks very different.. I started with a smaller size but years take a toll
2019-11-20T02:18:29Z equwal: I have 20/20 vision, but small fonts were giving me eye strain.
2019-11-20T02:19:21Z _death: same.. with hack I find the "i" glyph jarring.. anyway, sleepytime
2019-11-20T02:22:34Z equwal: https://github.com/equwal/alt-hack0
2019-11-20T02:22:45Z equwal: Slabbed I is on there :)
2019-11-20T02:22:49Z equwal: Gn
2019-11-20T02:26:46Z pjb: _death: a script that just loads a pre-compiled system is not a script anymore.
2019-11-20T02:26:51Z pjb: It's just a program.
2019-11-20T02:27:29Z pjb: In a script, you must have a read eval loop, such as the reading and evaluation of later forms DEPENDS on the evaluation of earlier forms.
2019-11-20T02:27:49Z pjb: If you don't have it or don't need it, then you have a mere program that you can pre-compile.
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2019-11-20T02:28:06Z pjb: (if you don't need it at run-time).
2019-11-20T02:28:57Z pjb: Note: cl-launch doesn't allows you to make scripts, since it wants to compile your source before running it!
2019-11-20T02:29:23Z pjb: (this is the reason why in the end, I don't use, and cave in, and just transformed all my scripts into mere programs).
2019-11-20T02:29:37Z _death: that's what I'm saying, you should just write programs
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2019-11-20T02:32:47Z equwal: https://github.com/source-foundry/alt-hack/issues/46
2019-11-20T02:33:31Z equwal: But you can't portably pre-compile your lisp programs can you pjb:?
2019-11-20T02:36:09Z pjb: _death: well, sometimes you want scripts. For example, when you need to adapt, at run-time, to the environment.
2019-11-20T02:36:27Z pjb: equwal: you can compile them when you install them at least.
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2019-11-20T03:21:10Z equwal: I would like to do exactly that with Roswell.
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2019-11-20T04:08:02Z drmeister: Hey folks, I'm using the local-time system.
2019-11-20T04:08:42Z drmeister: Does it make sense that (local-time:parse-timestring "2020-01-01") ->  @2019-12-31T19:00:00.000000-05:00
2019-11-20T04:09:15Z drmeister: Is it because I'm not providing a time zone when parsing?
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2019-11-20T04:10:41Z Lycurgus: .5
2019-11-20T04:10:52Z Lycurgus: sorry
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2019-11-20T04:12:27Z drmeister: Hmm, maybe that's why - maybe I'm parsing 2020-01-01 in GMT and I'm in EST and so it's printing 2020-01-01/GMT in EST and the world is a sphere?
2019-11-20T04:12:56Z drmeister: Flat earther's - checkmate!
2019-11-20T04:12:57Z ck_: the -5 looks weird to me
2019-11-20T04:13:21Z ck_: oh, no, sorry -- it's because I'm too used to GMT+1. My fault.
2019-11-20T04:14:19Z ck_: but it's the other way around, you're parsing 2020-01-01 as EST, which gets printed as GMT-offset
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2019-11-20T04:15:14Z drmeister: Thanks for the feedback.  Hmmm.
2019-11-20T04:16:32Z drmeister: If I parse 2020-01-01 midnight EST wouldn't that be 2020-01-01 5:00 am in the GST timezone?
2019-11-20T04:16:58Z Bike: do you mean GMT
2019-11-20T04:17:07Z drmeister: GMT - right.
2019-11-20T04:17:17Z Bike: or you could be doing things in the unitd arab emirates, i guess
2019-11-20T04:17:19Z ck_: yes, you're right
2019-11-20T04:17:47Z drmeister: I'm reading up on the time zone stuff in local-time.
2019-11-20T04:17:48Z ck_: I described what I thought was the case, not what your printout said :|
2019-11-20T04:18:26Z drmeister: That's ok - I always have to think hard about different timezones.
2019-11-20T04:19:02Z drmeister: All I'm sure about is you europeans disappear from IRC in my evening and show up just before I collapse in bed. :-)
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2019-11-20T04:21:54Z drmeister: If I force my timezone to UTC then parsing and printing gives the expected result.
2019-11-20T04:21:56Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Z79ueyCg/
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2019-11-20T04:23:00Z ck_: so what was the value of *default-timezone* before?
2019-11-20T04:23:32Z ck_: and what does the '@' signify in the line you pasted here a moment ago? on that paste, the 'z' is for zulu / utc, right
2019-11-20T04:25:12Z Bike: i believe @ is a reader macro in local time.
2019-11-20T04:26:20Z drmeister: Ah - perhaps I should read http://naggum.no/lugm-time.html - lots of detail.
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2019-11-20T04:36:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-20T04:37:19Z drmeister: Hi beach
2019-11-20T04:42:11Z drmeister: The Naggum paper explains it.  If I provide the date but not the time I get ... "absolute time with time omitted, defaulting to 00:00:00Z."
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2019-11-20T04:43:03Z drmeister: That's what I get for my pollyanna assumption that by leaving out the time it would just assume my timezone.
2019-11-20T04:43:40Z drmeister: I made an assumption and made an "ass" out of "u" and "mption".
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2019-11-20T05:16:30Z ck_: leave mption alone that's one of my closest friends
2019-11-20T05:17:02Z ck_: so the "-05:00" is a timezone signifier instead of an offset? I don't think I've ever seen that before
2019-11-20T05:17:27Z ck_: as part of an ISO timestamp I mean
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2019-11-20T07:25:42Z beach: Does anyone recall having seen the term "contents vector" for the slot storage of standard objects, perhaps in the AMOP?  Or did I make it up?
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2019-11-20T07:28:40Z Shinmera: well there is the slot index and such
2019-11-20T07:29:32Z beach: I specifically meant the term "contents vector".  I don't think "slot index" is used, but "slot location" is.
2019-11-20T07:29:39Z Shinmera: err, right
2019-11-20T07:30:33Z Shinmera: I don't remember mention of any vectors, just standard-instance-access.
2019-11-20T07:30:49Z beach: Sure.
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2019-11-20T07:31:27Z beach: I must have made it up.
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2019-11-20T08:21:28Z Guest31: ls
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2019-11-20T08:22:07Z no-defun-allowed: ls: cannot access /: No such file or directory
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2019-11-20T08:24:22Z Davd33: no-defun-allowed: xD
2019-11-20T08:24:38Z no-defun-allowed: Guest31 (IRC): your hard drive gon
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2019-11-20T08:35:25Z zhouzihao: 安静
2019-11-20T08:36:57Z jackdaniel2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2019-11-20T08:37:33Z ArthurStrong: zhouzihao: 静安安
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2019-11-20T08:40:52Z zhouzihao: 惊喜~~
2019-11-20T08:41:01Z zhouzihao: 为啥大家都没有说话~
2019-11-20T08:42:40Z ArthurStrong: 静喜都啥话
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2019-11-20T08:43:26Z Shinmera: Please only use English in this channel, thank you.
2019-11-20T08:44:46Z ArthurStrong only joking. I just recombined Chinese characters he already wrote
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2019-11-20T08:46:12Z zhouzihao: sorry maybe  you can not speak Chinese~~
2019-11-20T08:46:37Z ArthurStrong: zhouzihao: no I can't
2019-11-20T08:46:43Z zhouzihao: ha
2019-11-20T08:46:47Z zhouzihao: lol
2019-11-20T08:47:48Z ArthurStrong: zhouzihao: do you know Chinese language IRC channels? networks?
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2019-11-20T08:47:56Z ArthurStrong: or Japanese?
2019-11-20T08:48:37Z zhouzihao: sorry I don't know
2019-11-20T08:49:45Z zhouzihao: do you what to Practice Chinese？
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2019-11-20T08:50:02Z zhouzihao: Or Japanese?
2019-11-20T08:50:03Z ArthurStrong: zhouzihao: no
2019-11-20T08:50:18Z ArthurStrong: zhouzihao: just got interested if I can play this prank on them
2019-11-20T08:51:00Z zhouzihao: oaky~~
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2019-11-20T08:52:02Z zhouzihao: Or you can write a program to reorder the characters. The second time, I saw it.
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2019-11-20T08:52:52Z edgar-rft: google-translator thinks that ArthurStrong is cursing :-)
2019-11-20T08:52:55Z zhouzihao: This is not a sentence in Chinese.” 静喜都啥话“
2019-11-20T08:53:21Z aeth: ArthurStrong: if I interested got this prank can
2019-11-20T08:53:32Z ArthurStrong: My next step was to copypaste from Chinese wikipedia
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2019-11-20T08:54:32Z zhouzihao: okay~~ fun
2019-11-20T08:55:52Z zhouzihao: does anybody know mal? https://github.com/kanaka/mal/tree/master/forth
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2019-11-20T08:55:56Z ArthurStrong: Sometimes my prank can last 3-5 lines until interlocutor starts to suspect something
2019-11-20T08:56:39Z aeth: ArthurStrong: I don't think my application of your technique even lasted one line
2019-11-20T08:58:08Z zhouzihao: i what to achieve on kernel  does any information helps?
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2019-11-20T09:03:18Z ArthurStrong: What are your favorite educational micro-LISP implementations? Like Norvig wrote in Python?
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2019-11-20T09:03:56Z Shinmera: This all has very little to do with Common Lisp.
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2019-11-20T09:04:30Z no-defun-allowed: Probably sl3.c, which floats around in several places. It even has a proper reader (somehow in C). I can't think of many small Common Lisp implementations.
2019-11-20T09:05:10Z ArthurStrong: no-defun-allowed: thanks, googled it
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2019-11-20T09:05:43Z zhouzihao: thanks
2019-11-20T09:06:13Z no-defun-allowed: zhouzihao: What do you want to achieve with the kernel?
2019-11-20T09:07:03Z ArthurStrong: By the way. Once upon a time I was reading a book about Lisp. ANd there was something like this in preface: "LISP is a good prototyping language..." Can anyone remember what book called LISP prototyping language in preface or somewhere near beginning?
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2019-11-20T09:09:26Z zhouzihao: I want to create a new OS , when boot over just run a lisp env
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2019-11-20T09:10:25Z jackdaniel: please stick to the channel topic which is Common Lisp (other lisps may be discussed on ##lisp)
2019-11-20T09:11:15Z zhouzihao: okay you are right  ~
2019-11-20T09:11:21Z ArthurStrong: What is the point of having two similarly named channels? :)
2019-11-20T09:12:34Z zhouzihao: But I love CL better than others. And hope to implement the syntax of CL
2019-11-20T09:12:37Z phoe: ArthurStrong: backwards compatibility with the 20th century
2019-11-20T09:12:50Z jackdaniel: to have a channel for common lisp and to have a channel for "any" lisp
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2019-11-20T09:13:28Z ArthurStrong: jackdaniel: mabe #clisp would be a better name then...
2019-11-20T09:13:38Z Shinmera: This topic has been beaten to death.
2019-11-20T09:13:45Z Shinmera: #lisp is common lisp, and that's that, deal with it.
2019-11-20T09:13:51Z ArthurStrong: OK, OK
2019-11-20T09:13:56Z ArthurStrong zipped mouth
2019-11-20T09:14:14Z jackdaniel: maybe, but people interested in common lisp and operators of this channel decided that moving would be a lot of effort for little gain
2019-11-20T09:14:20Z no-defun-allowed: CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp, the only acronym that I believe is widely accepted as that is CL.
2019-11-20T09:15:45Z jackdaniel: to complete the picture, there is also #lispcafe for chitchat not necessarily related to lisp
2019-11-20T09:17:14Z edgar-rft: ArthurStrong: here's a list of irc lisp channels and what they're good for: https://www.cliki.net/IRC
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2019-11-20T09:18:05Z ArthurStrong: On a completely unrelated note, I once heard about (jokish?) band named Duran Duran Duran :)
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2019-11-20T09:20:22Z zhouzihao: You guys confused me.
2019-11-20T09:20:50Z zhouzihao: The speed of my Google translation can't keep up
2019-11-20T09:21:00Z zhouzihao: 我太南了
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2019-11-20T09:33:15Z aeth: zhouzihao: an operating system written in Common Lisp. https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
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2019-11-20T09:42:10Z zhouzihao: thanks i see . and i want do it by myself~~ :)
2019-11-20T09:42:50Z zhouzihao: and i don't want to create a new cross complier for CL
2019-11-20T09:43:17Z zhouzihao: so i want to do it in a anthor way
2019-11-20T09:43:56Z Duuqnd: Well, good luck. I don't know of any CL system that compiles freestanding code.
2019-11-20T09:44:20Z Duuqnd: compiles to*
2019-11-20T09:47:39Z phoe: mostly because you need the system runtime for ANSI CL to function
2019-11-20T09:48:16Z beach: Who said anything about "freestanding code"?
2019-11-20T09:48:27Z beach: ... whatever that might mean.
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2019-11-20T09:52:39Z Duuqnd: beach: "freestanding code" means code that does not rely on an already established environment.
2019-11-20T09:52:58Z beach: Duuqnd: OK, but why did you bring it up?
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2019-11-20T09:53:31Z Duuqnd: Because it's more or less required for running code on bare-metal.
2019-11-20T09:53:51Z zhouzihao: yes
2019-11-20T09:53:55Z beach: Duuqnd: So then, Mezzano and Movitz don't exist?
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2019-11-20T09:54:00Z jackdaniel: why wouldn't you be able to estabilish environment on "bar metal"?
2019-11-20T09:54:15Z jackdaniel: i.e linux kernel also relies on its own estabilished environment to function correctly
2019-11-20T09:54:21Z zhouzihao: Mezzano has a cross complier f
2019-11-20T09:54:22Z Duuqnd: jackdaniel: That environment would need to be freestanding.
2019-11-20T09:54:45Z Duuqnd: beach: I'm not sure how Mezzano works, but I think it includes a compiler that can do freestanding code.
2019-11-20T09:54:58Z Duuqnd: I know very little about Mezzano, though.
2019-11-20T09:55:01Z jackdaniel: can't compiler be a part of a freestanding environment?
2019-11-20T09:55:02Z phoe: Duuqnd: what do you mean "freestanding"
2019-11-20T09:55:16Z beach: Duuqnd: That curious, since you just said you don't know of any system that compiles to freestanding code.
2019-11-20T09:55:33Z zhouzihao: Hardware-independent
2019-11-20T09:55:43Z Duuqnd: beach: Not any standalone system. And they probably exist, I just haven't heard of them.
2019-11-20T09:55:47Z jackdaniel: I'm lost now
2019-11-20T09:55:52Z beach: Me too.
2019-11-20T09:55:53Z phoe: so code that can run on x86, amd64, armv6, armv7, armv8 and so on
2019-11-20T09:56:02Z phoe: wtf
2019-11-20T09:56:04Z zhouzihao: No system call required
2019-11-20T09:56:53Z phoe: what is a "system call" in this case
2019-11-20T09:56:54Z beach: Duuqnd: Either you have heard of Mezzano or you have not.  You can't have it both ways.
2019-11-20T09:56:55Z jackdaniel: the facts are: there are examples of CL running on bare metal (Mezzano and Movitz as beach mentioned); there were full featured operating systems written in Lisp (on specialized hardwer, so called lisp machines)
2019-11-20T09:57:22Z Duuqnd: beach: Mezzano isn't a standalone CL system like SBCL is.
2019-11-20T09:57:26Z jackdaniel: and these examples relied on the concept of environment
2019-11-20T09:57:28Z phoe: Duuqnd: wtf!?
2019-11-20T09:57:35Z phoe: how isn't it a standalone CL system
2019-11-20T09:57:42Z beach: This discussion is rapidly becoming surreal.
2019-11-20T09:57:51Z Duuqnd: Yeah, I'm getting confused too.
2019-11-20T09:57:51Z jackdaniel: Duuqnd: making such uneducated statements doesn't make you look serious
2019-11-20T09:57:58Z zhouzihao: SBCL is run for a user
2019-11-20T09:58:03Z zhouzihao: but not a  kernel
2019-11-20T09:58:17Z Duuqnd: I don't know much about Mezzano tbh. I should probably take a closer look at it.
2019-11-20T09:58:37Z jackdaniel: then on what basis do you state things as they were facts?
2019-11-20T09:58:46Z jackdaniel: as if they were*
2019-11-20T09:59:23Z phoe: Duuqnd: "I don't know how things work, so I'll pretend that I do"
2019-11-20T10:00:01Z phoe: please figure out how things work before publicly stating how they work.
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2019-11-20T10:00:43Z Duuqnd: How about I rephrase what I said before. Mezzano includes a CL implementation, but Mezzano itself it more than that.
2019-11-20T10:01:10Z jackdaniel: if what you say is: Common Lisp standard does not specify drivers and operating system then you are correct
2019-11-20T10:01:11Z phoe: well, yes, SBCL doesn't include code for dealing with hardware or graphics or its own thread scheduler
2019-11-20T10:01:27Z jackdaniel: but neither C standard does
2019-11-20T10:01:34Z Duuqnd: Actually, just disregard everything I've been saying, it doesn't make much sense.
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2019-11-20T10:02:03Z beach: Duuqnd: That's correct, it doesn't.
2019-11-20T10:02:13Z phoe: you could theoretically add all those to SBCL and have a functional SBCL-OS
2019-11-20T10:03:34Z jackdaniel is tempted to throw in a statement like "but lisp is interpreted" and watch the world burn ;-) see you later
2019-11-20T10:03:40Z no-defun-allowed: What did I miss?
2019-11-20T10:03:54Z Duuqnd: no-defun-allowed: Me being an idiot.
2019-11-20T10:04:08Z Duuqnd: So nothing interesting, really.
2019-11-20T10:04:40Z no-defun-allowed: I doubt you were being an idiot.
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2019-11-20T10:05:19Z no-defun-allowed: At the very least, if you acknowledged it, you aren't being an idiot.
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2019-11-20T10:08:44Z no-defun-allowed: But my 2¢ is that code generated by Mezzano (and I do think Movitz interpreted any functions defined in the OS) isn't freestanding, but the runtime which it utilises works directly with hardware, rather than calling into some other kernel or libc or anything like that.
2019-11-20T10:09:26Z phoe: it isn't freestanding, but neither is GCC-generated code
2019-11-20T10:09:53Z phoe: or clang, or cpython, or ghc, or sbcl, or whatever
2019-11-20T10:09:54Z Duuqnd: phoe: GCC has the -freestanding switch.
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2019-11-20T10:10:19Z Duuqnd: At that point it only relies on the statically linked libgcc.
2019-11-20T10:10:25Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, there's a very large list of options you have to give to GCC to create "freestanding" code, and you probably want to set up your own cross-compiler to generate proper freestanding code.
2019-11-20T10:11:28Z Duuqnd: This ^. Making freestanding code with normal GCC often ends in disaster.
2019-11-20T10:11:49Z no-defun-allowed: Then I would suggest that CL is more meaningless to compile freestanding than C, but all of the C specific uses of C that you C in kernels are undefined behaviour that the kernel writer likes.
2019-11-20T10:12:00Z beach: It appears that we do not have an agreed-upon definition of "freestanding", so discussing whether some compiler generates such code is not going to lead anywhere until such a definition is established.
2019-11-20T10:13:12Z Duuqnd: beach: I agree. It's hard to discuss things that nobody can agree on the definition of.
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2019-11-20T10:13:44Z phoe: beach: it seems that it means that freestanding code cannot depend on anything in the OS because there is no OS to depend on - so you cannot call into libc or make syscalls and so on.
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2019-11-20T10:15:07Z beach: phoe: So then, the Mezzano system is freestanding because it *is* the OS, but the Mezzano compiler does not generate freestanding code, because it relies on the Mezzano operating system for its execution.
2019-11-20T10:15:14Z phoe: gcc solves this by bundling/statically linking libc into the generated executables - in theory, so could a Lisp implementation, except it would need to e.g. use BIOS/EFI calls to write/read from standard input and storage
2019-11-20T10:15:18Z phoe: beach: yes, exactly
2019-11-20T10:15:28Z phoe: you don't need to call into the OS if you *are* the OS
2019-11-20T10:15:45Z phoe: Mezzano as an OS is as freestanding as Linux is as an OS
2019-11-20T10:16:15Z phoe: so one could argue that SBCL can generate freestanding code
2019-11-20T10:16:21Z phoe: after all, it can compile Mezzano (;
2019-11-20T10:16:34Z beach: Sure.
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2019-11-20T10:24:33Z phoe: okay
2019-11-20T10:24:57Z phoe grabs his scuba gear, takes a dive into CCL's FORMAT implementation
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2019-11-20T10:26:53Z easye: phoe: Don't forget to time your return to the surface.  Don't want to get the Bends from going that deep...
2019-11-20T10:27:23Z clothespin_: good morning
2019-11-20T10:27:43Z jackdaniel: hey
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2019-11-20T10:30:35Z zhouzihao: morning?
2019-11-20T10:30:37Z zhouzihao: okay
2019-11-20T10:32:05Z clothespin_: 4:30 am
2019-11-20T10:32:07Z zhouzihao: I almost forgot that I am at the other end of the earth.
2019-11-20T10:33:06Z jackdaniel: on IRC people come from different timezones
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2019-11-20T10:37:24Z phoe: good morning/afternoon/evening/day/night are muddy terms on the Tnternet waters
2019-11-20T10:37:27Z phoe: Internet*
2019-11-20T10:39:47Z no-defun-allowed: Universal Greeting Time: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
2019-11-20T10:39:59Z no-defun-allowed: "It states that it is always morning when person comes into a channel, and it is always late night when person leaves. Local time of any member of channel is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. Your ass will be laminated."
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2019-11-20T10:47:23Z gaqwas: I propose good mafendaght as a neutral greeting, independent of timezones
2019-11-20T10:49:26Z phoe: good ,(local-time:now)
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2019-11-20T10:56:05Z patrixl: I think "hello" also works ;)
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2019-11-20T11:15:13Z phoe: (format nil "~1f" 1234.5) ;=> "1000."
2019-11-20T11:15:53Z phoe: that is on SBCL and CCL
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2019-11-20T11:15:58Z phoe: the single trailing zero is not printed
2019-11-20T11:16:20Z phoe: CLHS ~F says: If it is impossible to print the value in the required format in a field of width w, then one of two actions is taken. (...) If the overflowchar parameter is omitted, then the scaled value is printed using more than w characters, as many more as may be needed.
2019-11-20T11:16:26Z Duuqnd: phoe: That doesn't happen for me.
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2019-11-20T11:16:45Z jackdaniel: 1000. ?
2019-11-20T11:17:00Z Duuqnd: I get "1234.5"
2019-11-20T11:17:07Z phoe: oh wait - on CCL I get 1000.0
2019-11-20T11:17:11Z phoe: I misclicked
2019-11-20T11:17:16Z phoe: on SBCL I get 1234.5 indeed
2019-11-20T11:17:26Z jackdaniel: how 1234.5 is 1000.0 anyway?
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2019-11-20T11:17:46Z phoe: I have no idea
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2019-11-20T11:18:24Z jackdaniel: try (format nil "~0,0f" 0.0) :-)
2019-11-20T11:18:43Z phoe: doh
2019-11-20T11:18:45Z jackdaniel: that's a fun one ,)
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2019-11-20T11:19:27Z phoe: does that conform though?
2019-11-20T11:19:37Z jackdaniel: no
2019-11-20T11:19:46Z jackdaniel: I've spent some time to fix these issues on ecl
2019-11-20T11:20:02Z jackdaniel: also (format nil "~0f" 14.0) should print 14.0, not 14.
2019-11-20T11:20:04Z phoe: well then, hello from inside CCL
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2019-11-20T11:20:25Z phoe: exactly this, I am now trying to tackle ANSI-TEST format.f.
2019-11-20T11:20:33Z phoe: ... format.f.5
2019-11-20T11:20:41Z phoe: oh the irony, I lost a decimal place
2019-11-20T11:21:02Z phoe: anyway, (format nil "~2f" 1.0) ;=> "1." on CCL
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2019-11-20T11:21:54Z jackdaniel: zero after . should be stripped only and only when d=0
2019-11-20T11:22:25Z jackdaniel: otherwise it msut be printed, because 14. is not a float, minimal number of characters is four not 3 (in that case)
2019-11-20T11:23:05Z phoe: hmm
2019-11-20T11:23:33Z jackdaniel: (unless the part before . is also 0)
2019-11-20T11:23:47Z jackdaniel: then i.e .0 is appropriate
2019-11-20T11:24:44Z phoe: this is some complex machinery that we are touching here
2019-11-20T11:25:22Z jackdaniel: you may take a look at ecl's log, thing was also discussed on this channel
2019-11-20T11:25:36Z jackdaniel: ecl's repository log*
2019-11-20T11:25:53Z phoe: repository log? you mean git log?
2019-11-20T11:25:59Z jackdaniel: yes
2019-11-20T11:26:13Z phoe: OK, I'll consult it if I need to
2019-11-20T11:26:22Z phoe: for now I'll try to understand CCL's format-fixed-aux
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2019-11-20T11:34:28Z phoe: I assume that (format nil "~1f" 1234.5) should return "1234.5"
2019-11-20T11:34:38Z phoe: since that is what I understand from the above CLHS reading that I've posted
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2019-11-20T11:35:08Z jackdaniel: I don't know what you have posted but your assumption imo is correct
2019-11-20T11:35:12Z phoe: if the float doesn't fit in the required width and no overflow character is provided, then we print everything
2019-11-20T11:35:18Z phoe: CLHS ~F says: If it is impossible to print the value in the required format in a field of width w, then one of two actions is taken. (...) If the overflowchar parameter is omitted, then the scaled value is printed using more than w characters, as many more as may be needed.
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2019-11-20T11:38:59Z phoe: -0.0 also shouldn't be printed as "-." I assume
2019-11-20T11:39:20Z jackdaniel: -.0
2019-11-20T11:40:06Z jackdaniel: if 0s are signed
2019-11-20T11:40:26Z phoe: OK
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2019-11-20T12:28:02Z phoe: oookay, FLONUM-TO-STRING is borked on CCL
2019-11-20T12:28:17Z phoe: it doesn't return five values as its comment-docstring says, but only three
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2019-11-20T12:56:29Z phoe: and well
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2019-11-20T12:56:36Z phoe: copying the implementation from SBCL doesn't help me much
2019-11-20T12:56:42Z phoe: since it is broken in its own unique ways
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2019-11-20T13:12:11Z ck_: sigh, what are you doing, phoe? First you spoil the integers with the (loop .. finally) bug. Now this.  What are we supposed to retreat to? Character-based programming?
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2019-11-20T13:13:26Z phoe: ck_: blame ANSI-TEST
2019-11-20T13:13:40Z phoe: if it didn't exist, then I wouldn't have got the idea of fixing CCL up to pass more of these
2019-11-20T13:13:49Z phoe: it is all pfdietz's fault, I tell you
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2019-11-20T13:16:06Z ck_: your blame redirector is corporate-level. congrats ;)
2019-11-20T13:16:40Z phoe: ck_: no, that is merely startup level
2019-11-20T13:17:05Z phoe: corporate level would be to blame X3J13 for standardizing the behaviour that we are now forced to comply with in order to pass ANSI-TEST
2019-11-20T13:20:07Z phoe: at a startup level, responsibility is individual, so blaming individuals is permitted; at a corporate level, responsibility belongs to groups of people, and so we must grab larger cannons - preferably these who lay the closest to the corporate legal team.
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2019-11-20T13:34:03Z ck_: I meant the swiftness of your reply more than its contents -- but the point is taken
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2019-11-20T14:34:04Z beach: I am reading this page: metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/instance-structure-protocol.html and I have a question...
2019-11-20T14:34:41Z beach: Does this page try to tell me that the location of the first slot is 0, or is it giving me the option to start at any other positive integer?
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2019-11-20T14:36:12Z beach: "Locations are non-negative integers.  For a given class, the locations increase consecutively, in the order that the directly accessible slots appear in the list of effective slots."
2019-11-20T14:36:29Z pjb: beach: I thought the MOP allowed you to implement objects where the storage of the slots wasn't even in-line!
2019-11-20T14:36:54Z beach: That has certainly been done.
2019-11-20T14:37:30Z beach: But let's restrict ourselves to STANDARD-CLASS.
2019-11-20T14:37:37Z jackdaniel: beach: that paragraph doesn't seem to force starting from 0
2019-11-20T14:38:09Z pjb: beach: this page only says that location>=0 and that for all slots in the effective slot list, location[i+1]=1+location[i]
2019-11-20T14:38:39Z pjb: beach: So if you use 1000, 1001, 1002, AFAIUI, it would  be good.
2019-11-20T14:38:44Z beach: Yes, but we also know that the AMOP is not a fantastic specification, so I would like to know whether they just missed that part.
2019-11-20T14:38:54Z nirved: pjb: location[i+1] > location[i]
2019-11-20T14:38:55Z pjb: beach: on the other hand, strangely, this prevents 0 4 8 9 12…
2019-11-20T14:39:19Z pjb: "the locations increase consecutively,"   What does "consecutively" mean?
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2019-11-20T14:40:10Z nirved: pjb: yes, you are correct
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2019-11-20T14:40:47Z pjb: beach: perhaps they meant to start counting from 0.  But in presence of superclasses, one could assume that lower slot numbers refer to the slots of the superclass.
2019-11-20T14:41:01Z beach: That's definitely true.
2019-11-20T14:41:15Z beach: It is the effective slots they are talking about.
2019-11-20T14:41:30Z pjb: beach: but the important point is that those "location" indices are purely an API convention. It doesn't mean the slots are stored at corresponding memory location, or in the memory at all.
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2019-11-20T14:42:41Z beach: For STANDARD-CLASS I think they are stored in memory.
2019-11-20T14:43:15Z beach: I just tested it in SBCL.  They start at 0 there.
2019-11-20T14:43:20Z Bike: technicaly i guess they could be stored in an out of line vector or something. like you have a hash table from objects to storage vectors? that would be a ridiculous implementation, of course
2019-11-20T14:43:47Z Bike: i don't think there's much else in mop that relies on any properties of the instance slot locations, though
2019-11-20T14:43:55Z beach: For my current question, where they are stored is unimportant.
2019-11-20T14:44:00Z Bike: there's slot-definition-location, and (funcallable-)standard-instance-access, and I think that's it?
2019-11-20T14:44:14Z beach: I just need to decide whether I ought to start at 0.
2019-11-20T14:44:18Z pjb: beach: also note that this concerns only "directly accessible slots" which are :allocation :instance and :type t <<<  slots of other types could be allocated elsewhere and otherwise.
2019-11-20T14:44:27Z pjb: and are not indexed by those locations!
2019-11-20T14:44:37Z Bike: well, nothing in the text says zero that i can see
2019-11-20T14:44:46Z Bike: and i don't think anything's going to break if you don't start at zero
2019-11-20T14:44:51Z beach: Bike: Correct.  If it did, I would not ask advice.
2019-11-20T14:45:26Z beach: Bike: Correct again.  Currently SICL slots start at 2. :)
2019-11-20T14:45:31Z beach: And nothing breaks.
2019-11-20T14:45:37Z Bike: the only reason for starting at zero and improving consecutively that i can think of is making it possible to copy an object by iterating from 0 to the effective slot count, and using (funcallable-)standard-instance-access
2019-11-20T14:45:52Z Bike: but that doesn't seem like something library code should be doing anyway, in my opinion
2019-11-20T14:46:02Z pjb: Bike: this would copy only the slots of type T.
2019-11-20T14:46:37Z Bike: ...oh huh, i didn't know standard-instance-access didn't work on non-t slots
2019-11-20T14:46:44Z Bike: makes sense of course
2019-11-20T14:47:02Z beach: OK, I think I have all the relevant information to make a decision.  Thanks everyone!
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2019-11-20T15:00:27Z phoe: CLHS, ~F: If the overflowchar parameter is omitted, then the scaled value is printed using more than w characters, as many more as may be needed.
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2019-11-20T15:01:07Z phoe: What does "the scaled value" mean? If we want to print 1234.1234 in a field of length 3, do we print 1234.1 since that is the minimum, or 1234.1234 since that is literally the value?
2019-11-20T15:01:26Z pjb: (format nil "~F" 1.234567e30) #| --> "1234567000000000000000000000000.0" |#
2019-11-20T15:02:25Z pjb: (format nil "~3F" 1.234567e30) #| --> "1200000000000000000000000000000." |#
2019-11-20T15:02:40Z phoe: pjb: I am talking about the spec, not about what the implementations do.
2019-11-20T15:02:56Z phoe: Because it seems that neither SBCL or CCL complies here, as there are float-formatting ANSI-TESTs that both fail.
2019-11-20T15:03:13Z phoe: So either the tests are broken, or the implementations are.
2019-11-20T15:03:21Z phoe: I'm trying to rule out the first option now.
2019-11-20T15:04:33Z jackdaniel: scale is for multiplying the flat with 10^k
2019-11-20T15:04:41Z jackdaniel: k defaults to 0
2019-11-20T15:04:44Z phoe: jackdaniel: I understand that part.
2019-11-20T15:05:05Z phoe: My question is whether the spec means that we should print the scaled value - in that case, 1234.1234
2019-11-20T15:05:25Z jackdaniel: it should go after the minimum
2019-11-20T15:05:29Z phoe: this might lead to a case when we print 1234.1234 for fields with width 5 but print 1234.1 for fields with width 6
2019-11-20T15:05:43Z jackdaniel: w and d parameters refer to the string lengths
2019-11-20T15:06:58Z pjb: the question is whether the standard specifies w as a width as in number of characters printed, or as a significant digits+dot displayed?
2019-11-20T15:07:16Z phoe: > The parameter w is the width of the field to be printed;
2019-11-20T15:07:29Z phoe: this reads like number of characters printed
2019-11-20T15:07:44Z jackdaniel: that's how it is imo
2019-11-20T15:07:44Z pjb: because once you admit that you will use as many character as you need to print the number (ie. more than w), why should the number still be rounded to w (-1) significant digits?
2019-11-20T15:07:59Z pjb: phoe: not in  (format nil "~3F" 1.234567e30)
2019-11-20T15:08:02Z phoe: that was exactly my original question
2019-11-20T15:08:39Z phoe: the moment we the field is too small, what *exactly* do we do
2019-11-20T15:08:51Z pjb: The standard is contradictory: It contains both: "Exactly w characters will be output." and "If the overflowchar parameter is omitted, then the scaled value is printed using more than w characters, as many more as may be needed."
2019-11-20T15:08:58Z phoe: >  If it is impossible to print the value in the required format in a field of width w, then one of two actions is taken. If the parameter overflowchar is supplied, then w copies of that parameter are printed instead of the scaled value of arg. If the overflowchar parameter is omitted, then the scaled value is printed using more than w characters, as many more as may be needed.
2019-11-20T15:09:04Z phoe: pjb: it doesn't contradict itself
2019-11-20T15:09:12Z phoe: "If it is impossible to print the value in the required format in a field of width w..."
2019-11-20T15:09:19Z phoe: clhs ~F
2019-11-20T15:09:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cca.htm
2019-11-20T15:09:27Z pjb: phoe: without ofverflowchar, it is.
2019-11-20T15:09:39Z phoe: it doesn't contradict itself either
2019-11-20T15:09:44Z pjb: (format nil "~3,,,'*F" 1.234567e30) #| --> "***" |# good.
2019-11-20T15:09:45Z phoe: > If it is impossible to print the value in the required format in a field of width w, then one of two actions is taken. If the parameter overflowchar is supplied, then w copies of that parameter are printed instead of the scaled value of arg. If the overflowchar parameter is omitted, then the scaled value is printed using more than w characters, as many more as may be needed.
2019-11-20T15:09:50Z phoe: uh worry
2019-11-20T15:09:54Z phoe: uh sorry*
2019-11-20T15:09:55Z pjb: (format nil "~3F" 1.234567e30) #| --> "1200000000000000000000000000000." |#  more or less as specified.
2019-11-20T15:09:59Z pjb: but contradictory.
2019-11-20T15:10:01Z phoe: > If the overflowchar parameter is omitted, then the scaled value is printed using more than w characters, as many more as may be needed.
2019-11-20T15:10:16Z phoe: if w is too small, then "the scaled value is printed using more than w characters, as many more as may be needed."
2019-11-20T15:10:17Z jackdaniel: "120000." is not a float number
2019-11-20T15:10:25Z pjb: Furthermore!
2019-11-20T15:10:30Z phoe: that seems clear to me except I do not know what "the scaled value" refers to
2019-11-20T15:11:01Z phoe: if w is too small and overflowchar is nil, then we print using as many characters as we need.
2019-11-20T15:11:02Z pjb: the scaled value is 1234567000000000000000000000000.0  for 1.234567e30.
2019-11-20T15:11:07Z phoe: the question is, print *what* exactly
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2019-11-20T15:11:11Z pjb: ie, it's not a value, it's a representation of a value.
2019-11-20T15:11:25Z pjb: The scaled value will be printed.
2019-11-20T15:11:32Z phoe: OK
2019-11-20T15:11:34Z jackdaniel: we print the original number times 10^k
2019-11-20T15:11:45Z pjb: well, the scaled value, modulo the rounding to w (-1) significant digits…
2019-11-20T15:11:48Z phoe: so in the original question we print 1234.1234
2019-11-20T15:11:58Z phoe: since that's the original value times 10^0
2019-11-20T15:11:59Z pjb: which is not written down in the specification…
2019-11-20T15:12:09Z phoe: thanks, that solves my issue
2019-11-20T15:12:14Z jackdaniel: phoe: yes, and that, if we take w and d parameters may get shortened
2019-11-20T15:12:18Z jackdaniel: like 1234.1
2019-11-20T15:13:17Z phoe: we already know that w is too small
2019-11-20T15:13:48Z phoe: so in that case we would always need to limit ourselves to the first decimal place
2019-11-20T15:13:57Z phoe: since we can't skip it, because 1234. is not a float
2019-11-20T15:14:03Z jackdaniel: if it is too small than yes
2019-11-20T15:14:04Z phoe: and we can't add any more since that would be more than absolutely necessary
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2019-11-20T15:14:13Z phoe: yes, I only consider the case when w is too small
2019-11-20T15:14:21Z phoe: if we want to "~1F" 1234.1234
2019-11-20T15:14:32Z phoe: then that would result in 1234.1 if I understand it correctly
2019-11-20T15:14:44Z pjb: The problem is that rounding is specified only in the presence of d, but here, we have some rounding done also just for w.
2019-11-20T15:14:57Z jackdaniel: phoe: yes
2019-11-20T15:15:28Z phoe: pjb: there is no rounding done in case of digits before the decimal point, and CCL is wrong.
2019-11-20T15:15:40Z pjb: phoe: probably, yes.
2019-11-20T15:15:47Z phoe: if we can print 1200.0 we could as well print 1234.1 without losing accuracy
2019-11-20T15:15:58Z pjb: yep.
2019-11-20T15:16:04Z phoe: this is exactly CCL's ~F that I am trying to fix right now
2019-11-20T15:17:12Z pjb: phoe:  so "~3F" 1.234567e30 should print as 1234567000000000000000000000000.0
2019-11-20T15:17:36Z phoe: yes
2019-11-20T15:17:39Z pjb: ie just like ~F.
2019-11-20T15:17:48Z phoe: that is yet another consequence of CCL ~F being broken
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2019-11-20T15:45:53Z beach: phoe: This is silly.  We should have an external and implementation-independent library for FORMAT.
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2019-11-20T15:50:45Z phoe: beach: obviously we should, but I do not suspect that I can convince the implementors to use "the one #'FORMAT to rule them all"
2019-11-20T15:51:05Z beach: You are probably right.
2019-11-20T15:52:23Z phoe: as much as I'd like it to happen, it would be a pretty huge burden to maintain a loadable FORMAT module that suits all implementations
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2019-11-20T15:52:52Z phoe: an even larger one to adapt all of them to use that library
2019-11-20T15:53:12Z beach: I am not sure it would be a huge burden to maintain such a thing.
2019-11-20T15:53:18Z phoe: and an even even EVEN larger one to actually construct a library that has all the #+sbcl or #+ccl or #+ecl or #+sicl or #+whatevercl things
2019-11-20T15:53:38Z phoe: there's a lot of implementation-specific declarations in the FORMAT implementations that I've seen so far
2019-11-20T15:54:09Z beach: I can believe that.  But are they necessary?
2019-11-20T15:54:33Z phoe: I cannot answer that one - I'm not fluent enough in the internals of all the implementations
2019-11-20T15:54:57Z beach: Sure.  It was a rhetorical question.
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2019-11-20T15:55:27Z phoe: then also comes the bootstrapping question of when the theoretically-loadable FORMAT is needed inside the implementation's build process
2019-11-20T15:55:35Z phoe: s/loadable/pluggable-in/
2019-11-20T15:55:41Z beach: Indeed.
2019-11-20T15:55:51Z phoe: so that question gets quite complicated quite quickly
2019-11-20T15:56:04Z beach: I have been giving that kind of stuff some thought lately, not for FORMAT but for READ.
2019-11-20T15:56:10Z phoe: eclector, right
2019-11-20T15:56:14Z pfdietz: FORMAT already allows invocation of external functions.
2019-11-20T15:56:25Z phoe: the best system of pluggable modules that we got for Common Lisp implementations is ASDF - that itself depends on Common Lisp
2019-11-20T15:56:34Z beach: pfdietz: What are the implications of that observation?
2019-11-20T15:56:49Z phoe: but using ASDF to swap our components of CL itself runs into the same sort of metastability problems
2019-11-20T15:57:11Z phoe: unless we're willing to have a "secondary" CL running on top of the base one, and ASDF depending on the base one
2019-11-20T15:57:43Z phoe: but that in turn generates a clusterfuck of issues and dependencies that are not easily solvable without first-class environments
2019-11-20T15:57:44Z beach: phoe: I have been thinking that for an implementation that is written in C or C++, a READ is needed to read the code, but that READ can be fairly primitive, because code does not contain all the variations that READ allows for.
2019-11-20T15:57:49Z pfdietz: If you want to extend FORMAT, you can do it that way.  Perhaps I'm not understanding the conversation.
2019-11-20T15:58:15Z phoe: pfdietz: the question is about having a FORMAT/READ/whatever implementation that you can swap out for an external one.
2019-11-20T15:58:22Z copec: One FORMAT to rule them all
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2019-11-20T15:58:29Z pfdietz: Ok
2019-11-20T15:58:41Z beach: phoe: Similarly, if FORMAT should be needed during bootstrapping, I am willing to bet that a small subset would be sufficient.
2019-11-20T15:58:54Z phoe: for some self-contained parts of the language such as FORMAT or LOOP that would be easier than for more wired ones
2019-11-20T15:59:10Z phoe: beach: sounds correct
2019-11-20T15:59:45Z phoe: so basically we'd then create a set of DUMB-FORMAT, DUMB-READ, ..., that can be then used to bootstrap a Lisp implementation that can then bootstrap FORMAT, READ, ...
2019-11-20T16:00:03Z phoe: and the DUMB-* ones would be much simpler, just contrived enough to bootstrap stuff
2019-11-20T16:00:08Z beach: phoe: No, that would be up to each implementation to do.
2019-11-20T16:00:28Z beach: phoe: For a new implementation, that could be contemplated from the start.
2019-11-20T16:00:31Z phoe: right, that's what I meant
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2019-11-20T16:00:42Z phoe: but then again, each implementation would then need to modularize itself
2019-11-20T16:00:52Z phoe: and make LOOP, READ, FORMAT, whatever, easily swappable
2019-11-20T16:01:06Z phoe: that's more work that someone would need to do
2019-11-20T16:01:21Z beach: I think that is the real problem.  I think lots of code is specific for reasons of laziness on the part of the original creator.
2019-11-20T16:01:37Z phoe: or they just didn't think that someone would ever want to swap those components out
2019-11-20T16:02:04Z beach: Or that there would ever be any other Common Lisp implementation than theirs worth considering.
2019-11-20T16:02:05Z phoe: I wouldn't attribute it to laziness if there was never a credible *need* for modularity in that matter.
2019-11-20T16:02:58Z beach: The need for modularity arises because we are currently overwhelmed by the collective maintenance burden or all the implementations.
2019-11-20T16:03:06Z beach: Your current work is a very good example.
2019-11-20T16:03:16Z phoe: I still disagree - even if there are ten implementations of a language, it might still be a novel idea that one could want to *dynamically* swap parts of the *language* around
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2019-11-20T16:03:30Z beach: Er, what?
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2019-11-20T16:03:45Z phoe: like, grab FORMAT code from SBCL and plug it into CCL
2019-11-20T16:03:52Z pjb: Having common components wouldn't prevent implementations to try their own versions if they can justify them (eg. for performance or size).
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2019-11-20T16:04:05Z phoe: FORMAT is a part of the language, and I want to swap it over from one implementation to the other
2019-11-20T16:04:13Z phoe: as an example
2019-11-20T16:04:30Z beach: I'm lost, but it is not terribly important.
2019-11-20T16:04:47Z phoe: okay, backtracking now
2019-11-20T16:04:54Z phoe: yes, modularity would be a decent consideration now
2019-11-20T16:05:16Z beach: If you are right about how specific the code is, swapping that way would be totally out of the question.
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2019-11-20T16:06:30Z pjb: Well, you can always remove implementation specific code with a standardized API and replace it with implementation independent code.
2019-11-20T16:07:13Z beach: phoe: And why would it be more interesting to completely swap in a different FORMAT than to have a format implemented the way Eclector is, i.e., that there is a CLIENT argument that allows for implementation-specific variations?
2019-11-20T16:07:37Z beach: phoe: Then CCL could create an SBCL client instance and instantly have the SBCL behavior.
2019-11-20T16:07:38Z pjb: There may be difficulties if there are breaches of modularity.
2019-11-20T16:07:48Z phoe: yes, modularity would be a decent consideration for that
2019-11-20T16:08:03Z phoe: but then you would need to define a common format for the modules and a common API for utilizing, loading, unloading them and so on
2019-11-20T16:08:16Z phoe: and enforce that each implementation, internally, respects those
2019-11-20T16:08:17Z pjb: Particularly, in the case of format, it is expected that there is a compiler-macro to deal with it, and this may be implementation dependent.
2019-11-20T16:08:26Z phoe: this does smell ridiculously close to ASDF
2019-11-20T16:08:45Z pjb: (ie. the implementation compiler macro could call implementation:internals-of-format instead of cl:format).
2019-11-20T16:08:45Z beach: pjb: Why would there be breaches of modularity in a freshly implemented library designed to be configurable and modular?
2019-11-20T16:09:03Z pjb: beach: so you would have to modify also the compiler-macro.
2019-11-20T16:09:25Z phoe: if one ensures that ASDF doesn't depend on the implementation's READ, LOOP, FORMAT et al (for instance, by bundling its own ones) then it would be able to load modules for FORMAT, LOOP, READ and such and expose them to the underlying implementation
2019-11-20T16:09:25Z beach: pjb: The compiler macro would be part of this imaginary implementation, of course.
2019-11-20T16:09:27Z pjb: beach: the breach would be in the old code, jumping into the internals of the implementation specific format.
2019-11-20T16:09:46Z phoe: but that already means that we marry ASDF close to each Lisp implementation and use it to load parts of the CL package.
2019-11-20T16:10:03Z phoe: and that already sounds ridiculous enough
2019-11-20T16:10:26Z pjb: beach: one example, with READ, is that to implement the dotted lists, you cannot use CL:READ. You need an internal function.  So you cannot replace the reader macro for #\( without having access to the internals of the implementation specific reader.
2019-11-20T16:11:27Z phoe: pjb: why internals?
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2019-11-20T16:11:43Z beach: OK, I guess I was wrong.  Sorry for bringing it up.
2019-11-20T16:11:58Z Bike: the format compiler macro is commonly implemented using internal functions rather than formatter. beach is right that you'd just also defiend the compiler macro for your library, though.
2019-11-20T16:12:02Z Bike: define*
2019-11-20T16:12:07Z Bike: i don't see any problem there
2019-11-20T16:12:16Z pjb: beach: you may be right. It depends on the implementation.  With old code (implementations tend to have old code) surprises are common.
2019-11-20T16:13:19Z beach: Obviously, if an old implementation does not want any of its code base to be altered, then it can not take advantage of any external configurable, implementation-independent, modular library to replace its own code.
2019-11-20T16:13:25Z beach: That seems pretty obvious to me.
2019-11-20T16:14:34Z phoe: beach: SICL seems like the only implementation that is not "old"
2019-11-20T16:15:03Z beach: phoe: Notice that "does not want any of its code base to be altered".
2019-11-20T16:15:25Z phoe: beach: that is a function of people, time and money - I don't think maintainers have these galore
2019-11-20T16:15:46Z phoe: or else there might be a big disparity between "want" and "can"
2019-11-20T16:16:00Z beach: But, I already said I was wrong.  All implementations are old.  None of them would want a single line of code to change.  They all use internal stuff for good reasons.
2019-11-20T16:16:19Z Bike: you don't need to be passive aggressive about it
2019-11-20T16:16:23Z phoe: okay, away with the sarcasm for a second
2019-11-20T16:16:47Z phoe: it's more than possible that a lot of that code is just cruft and junk that's accumulated through years of modifications by multiple people
2019-11-20T16:17:02Z phoe: I'm digging through CCL codebase right now and I see kilolines of this stuff
2019-11-20T16:17:03Z beach: Bike: Sorry.  Discussions like this make me tired, and I realized I started it, so I wanted to say that I am not interested in continuing.
2019-11-20T16:17:29Z phoe: it would certainly be nice to modularize, document, refactor and otherwise modernize a lot of that code
2019-11-20T16:17:43Z Bike: well that's fine of course
2019-11-20T16:18:27Z phoe: and to make it more sanely bootstrappable - CCL can't even build itself without itself and it will need tons of unspaghetting the code to make even the CCL compiler loadable in SBCL
2019-11-20T16:19:06Z beach: rme hinted that it would be possible, but fairly complicated to remove the dependence on itself.
2019-11-20T16:19:53Z phoe: it would be more than lovely to have all of these features, since, frankly, CCL works and is free software - and that are the only two nice things about its source
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2019-11-20T16:20:26Z phoe: it is a massive pile of spaghetti code called the CCL package where everything and the kitchen sink (sans LOOP and parts of the compiler) depends on itself
2019-11-20T16:21:08Z phoe: is it the authors' or maintainers' fault? hell no I don't think so
2019-11-20T16:21:35Z phoe: but up until some point it directly is a function of how much time people are willing and able to spare on making the source code better
2019-11-20T16:21:46Z phoe: at some point when everything is perfectly defined and modular there is little more to do
2019-11-20T16:21:46Z beach: I don't think it is useful to assign blame to any particular individual.
2019-11-20T16:21:51Z phoe: yes, correct
2019-11-20T16:21:54Z phoe: it is not a function of blame at all
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2019-11-20T16:22:16Z phoe: it is a function of how much time and energy people have to invest into CCL or any other implementation
2019-11-20T16:22:19Z beach: There is one other aspect of all this...
2019-11-20T16:22:36Z beach: It is possible that overall programming style and developer experience evolves over time.
2019-11-20T16:22:48Z phoe: and a bit of anticipation how much foresight into what might be used or useful in the future
2019-11-20T16:22:51Z phoe: that too
2019-11-20T16:23:00Z phoe: CL style has evolved greatly over time, just like the language did
2019-11-20T16:23:19Z beach: And most implementations have roots in pre-ANSI Common Lisp.
2019-11-20T16:23:28Z beach: ... so pre-CLOS.
2019-11-20T16:23:37Z phoe: and these roots mean tons of source code
2019-11-20T16:23:41Z phoe: that is also correct
2019-11-20T16:23:46Z beach: Indeed.
2019-11-20T16:24:03Z Bike: thus the totally-not-methods subtypep system phoe has been digging through
2019-11-20T16:24:17Z jackdaniel: format implementations (at least in cmucl, ecl and sbcl) grown from a fairly portable format implementation in cmucl
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2019-11-20T16:24:47Z beach: jackdaniel: Interesting.
2019-11-20T16:25:00Z phoe: a lot of LOOP code is similar, too
2019-11-20T16:25:07Z Bike: all fits in one file too, so that's nice, probably because it was a library at some point in the distant pats
2019-11-20T16:25:08Z Bike: past
2019-11-20T16:25:12Z jackdaniel: fact that code diverges with time is an entropy problem ,)
2019-11-20T16:25:26Z jackdaniel: same goes for PCL CLOS
2019-11-20T16:25:31Z phoe: since there were several prominent LOOP implementations that were then pulled into CL implementations
2019-11-20T16:25:31Z jackdaniel: MIT loop etc
2019-11-20T16:25:32Z Bike: i've already done nontrivial rewrites to the format code clasp got from ecl. ha ha
2019-11-20T16:25:39Z phoe: haha
2019-11-20T16:26:15Z Bike: and clasp's loop code has some #+genera conditionals i haven't bothered removing
2019-11-20T16:26:26Z jackdaniel: and code changes because it has bugs. coming up with a new thing as a portable replacement will be similar with an exception, that the code will use current consensual coding style
2019-11-20T16:26:40Z phoe: well, one ambitious project would be to write a set of common CL modules - FORMAT, LOOP and so on, that are then pullable into CL implementations
2019-11-20T16:26:55Z phoe: and the ambitious part is to make it good enough for the implementors to consider and them perform an actual switch
2019-11-20T16:27:01Z jackdaniel: phoe: that's what SICL project is about
2019-11-20T16:27:01Z phoe: s/them/then/
2019-11-20T16:27:15Z phoe: jackdaniel: I am aware
2019-11-20T16:27:15Z beach: phoe: Er, what do you think some of us are currently doing?
2019-11-20T16:27:16Z jackdaniel: I'm not saying "beach's project" because at this point there are more people involved (vide eclector)
2019-11-20T16:27:31Z phoe: I wanted to stress the second line though
2019-11-20T16:27:50Z beach: phoe: Eclector is a prime example, I think.  scymtym is doing a great job.
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2019-11-20T16:28:00Z phoe: I have seen it, yes
2019-11-20T16:28:47Z beach: phoe: And Xach was able to load SICL LOOP directly into SBCL with the purpose of catching LOOP forms that violate the standard.
2019-11-20T16:28:51Z jackdaniel: my point is that many parts of implementations which are currenlty dubbed "old" grown from independent portable modules (with some conditionalization)
2019-11-20T16:28:52Z phoe: the second point I've made still stands though - the implementations will need to ditch their old code and use the common one
2019-11-20T16:29:09Z phoe: so we'd literally need to reverse the entropy
2019-11-20T16:29:27Z beach: jackdaniel: I think that is right, and I also think it is done that way because they were not written to be configurable.
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2019-11-20T16:29:58Z phoe: beach: they weren't - likely no one back in the day thought of that
2019-11-20T16:30:14Z phoe: seems like it's our turn to do that
2019-11-20T16:30:14Z beach: And the reason they aren't configurable may well be that they didn't have the CLOS machinery at the time.
2019-11-20T16:30:16Z Bike: xerox loop is configurable. i don't think anyone's done anything with that besides adding sequence iteration, though
2019-11-20T16:30:53Z Bike: cmucl format is too, really, you should be able to add new characters reasonably easily, if you want
2019-11-20T16:31:08Z Bike: probably not as easy as like a fulll on clos protocol obvs
2019-11-20T16:32:03Z beach: So then I don't understand why it is done the way it is, i.e., copy code and modify it locally.
2019-11-20T16:32:13Z phoe: ease of building
2019-11-20T16:32:24Z phoe: also known as local forks that never get merged into master
2019-11-20T16:32:41Z jackdaniel: beach: I think that there were some object oriented machinery at the time, but from performance perspective there could have been a penalty compared to ordinary functions
2019-11-20T16:32:41Z phoe: "let's just copy format.lisp into our repo and use it"
2019-11-20T16:32:48Z jackdaniel: with fast gf dispatch it will be considerably lower, but still
2019-11-20T16:32:50Z phoe: <ten years of code maintenance pass>
2019-11-20T16:32:55Z phoe: "well shit"
2019-11-20T16:33:01Z phoe: also performance, yes
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2019-11-20T16:33:07Z beach: jackdaniel: Very plausible.
2019-11-20T16:33:12Z phoe: computers ten years ago were choking on generic functions much more than they do now
2019-11-20T16:33:31Z phoe: twenty, even more
2019-11-20T16:33:40Z phoe: add less-optimized CLOS implementations on top of that
2019-11-20T16:33:44Z jackdaniel: and regarding copying code, well, imagine that the sacred format is maintained by someone somewhere -- that would make building lisp implementations considerably more painful: you need to download implementation and sacret modules to build common lisp
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2019-11-20T16:33:56Z phoe: jackdaniel: git has made it much less painful nowadays
2019-11-20T16:34:00Z phoe: but we didn't have git twenty years ago
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2019-11-20T16:34:08Z jackdaniel: still it is painful
2019-11-20T16:34:18Z Bike: clasp had... experiences... with submodules
2019-11-20T16:34:18Z phoe: that is correct
2019-11-20T16:34:21Z jackdaniel: when you fix a bug you'd need to knock and ask nicely
2019-11-20T16:34:26Z jackdaniel: to merge
2019-11-20T16:34:38Z phoe: this is another big issue - you depend on other people for maintenance
2019-11-20T16:34:42Z jackdaniel: etc, having your own copy is far more practical (at least from a local perspective)
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2019-11-20T16:34:47Z Bike: we still have eclector as an external sort of module and it's okay, though
2019-11-20T16:34:49Z phoe: even if you find it, you can't fix the bug yourself unless you do what?
2019-11-20T16:34:52Z phoe: surprise - a local fork
2019-11-20T16:35:01Z phoe: and then you leave it there since it's convenient, and so it diverges
2019-11-20T16:35:08Z Bike: with cleavir it's definitely been aided by my having commit access to sicl as well, so i can just fix bugs i find
2019-11-20T16:35:23Z phoe: Bike: so all implementors would need to have commit access to the theoretical LOOP repo
2019-11-20T16:35:31Z phoe: and that is likely to become a mess
2019-11-20T16:35:43Z jackdaniel said everything he had to say, later \o
2019-11-20T16:35:45Z Bike: well, like i said, i don't have commit to eclector and it's been alright.
2019-11-20T16:35:58Z Bike: mostly because scymtym is quite responsive
2019-11-20T16:36:01Z phoe: Bike: that's a complex social issue arleady
2019-11-20T16:36:22Z Bike: well. yeah?
2019-11-20T16:36:33Z Bike: we're all adults here. probably
2019-11-20T16:36:45Z phoe: if the maintainers are responsible and capable and there are no interpersonal wars, then things are easy
2019-11-20T16:37:03Z phoe: but this isn't a guaranteed standard in the software development world
2019-11-20T16:37:10Z phoe: and this is where it becomes complex.
2019-11-20T16:37:22Z jackdaniel: not really, if you have popular software and there is not enough capable developers then review is a time-consuming bottleneck
2019-11-20T16:37:23Z Bike: it's not like implementations are one-person affairs either, usually.
2019-11-20T16:37:46Z phoe: jackdaniel: mancount is also an issue, yes
2019-11-20T16:38:01Z jackdaniel: not mancount but scalability
2019-11-20T16:38:14Z phoe: especially for popular software where you have more issues per day than you can easily count and read.
2019-11-20T16:38:20Z phoe: jackdaniel: yep
2019-11-20T16:38:57Z phoe: okay - anyway
2019-11-20T16:39:14Z phoe: time to do exactly what I shouldn't - copy some SBCL code into CCL to fix some bugs and introduce new ones
2019-11-20T16:39:29Z phoe afk
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2019-11-20T17:45:57Z seok: which json library should i use?
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2019-11-20T17:46:14Z seok: moving from yason as its documentation site has been down for ages
2019-11-20T17:46:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: scymtym: This traits prototype is amazin
2019-11-20T17:47:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/scymtym/traits
2019-11-20T17:47:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: scymtym: your traits prototype is amazing https://github.com/scymtym/traits
2019-11-20T17:47:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: seok: I always use yason
2019-11-20T17:47:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: seok: it changed maintainers and the README was never updated
2019-11-20T17:47:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://phmarek.github.io/yason/
2019-11-20T17:47:21Z seok: Ah there it is
2019-11-20T17:47:24Z seok: Thank you
2019-11-20T17:48:43Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: erm, thanks. i didn't really expect anyone to find it. it isn't cleaned up, documented, finished or tested in the slightest
2019-11-20T17:48:57Z Xach: it's in the github lisp rss
2019-11-20T17:48:59Z Xach: you can't escape
2019-11-20T17:49:11Z scymtym: apparently
2019-11-20T17:49:42Z ck_: uh oh, that's a thing?
2019-11-20T17:50:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also at least one #lisp person I follow forked it
2019-11-20T17:51:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I appreciate seeing early-stage proofs of concept
2019-11-20T17:52:59Z jackdaniel: I've forked it to not lose track of the project
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2019-11-20T17:55:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like seeing uses of the MOP that solve problems I've already had :)
2019-11-20T17:56:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: I spend a lot of time attempting to imagine use-cases for funcallable objects, custom method combinations, custom metaclasses, etc., but I usually find it hard to come up with applications that aren't just a different way of doing something that's solved almost as well another way.
2019-11-20T17:57:20Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: for method combinations, just realize they are just monads.  See how monads are useful in programming in general.
2019-11-20T17:57:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: perhaps, but I find that the standard method combination solves 90% of the problems I already have
2019-11-20T17:58:10Z pjb: Of course. This is why it's in the standard.
2019-11-20T17:59:13Z pjb: But lisp is the language where the 90% that is easy is trivial, where the 9% that is hard in other language is easy, and where the 1% that is impossible in other languages is possible.
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2019-11-20T17:59:42Z Lycurgus: lincoln
2019-11-20T17:59:47Z Lycurgus: sorry
2019-11-20T18:00:40Z LdBeth: There’s nothing impossible given the ability to do meta programming
2019-11-20T18:00:46Z Lycurgus: was thinking about the truth of 'lincoln was the 16th president'
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2019-11-20T18:09:28Z phoe: Which part of the standard defines the case in which exponent markers are printed?
2019-11-20T18:10:17Z phoe: I am seeing ANSI-TEST failures because 1.0e+0 was expected but 1.0E+0 was printed and I want to see the part of the standard that defines this behaviour.
2019-11-20T18:14:00Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_cbb.htm mentions nothing about case.
2019-11-20T18:14:04Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_acac.htm mentions nothing about case either.
2019-11-20T18:14:12Z jackdaniel: in glossary it is explicitly said that it is either e or E
2019-11-20T18:14:48Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes, but ANSI-TEST STRING='s against the lowercase variant.
2019-11-20T18:15:08Z phoe: This implies that the uppercase "E" should not be printed.
2019-11-20T18:15:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is the glossary normative?
2019-11-20T18:15:15Z phoe: yes, it is normative.
2019-11-20T18:15:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: It sounds like that needs string-equal, then
2019-11-20T18:16:01Z phoe: and if that is true, this implies that the ANSI-TESTs that tests exponent marker case are broken.
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2019-11-20T18:17:08Z pjb: #+ccl (format nil "~E ~:* ~e /~:* ~(~E ~:* ~e~) /~:* ~:@(~E ~:* ~e~)" 3.14e15) #| --> "3.14E+15  3.14E+15 / 3.14e+15  3.14e+15 / 3.14E+15  3.14E+15" |#
2019-11-20T18:17:19Z phoe: uh wait a second
2019-11-20T18:17:27Z phoe: this depends on whether it's ~E or ~e?
2019-11-20T18:17:29Z jackdaniel: I think that you overuse word broken/borked/etc. incorrect would be more appropriate imo
2019-11-20T18:17:49Z phoe: jackdaniel: OK, thanks for the remark
2019-11-20T18:18:07Z phoe: and if that is true, this implies that the ANSI-TESTs that tests exponent marker case are incorrect
2019-11-20T18:18:09Z pjb: phoe: no. It could have, but no.
2019-11-20T18:18:29Z pjb: phoe: sbcl, ecl and abcl use e, ccl and clisp use E.
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2019-11-20T20:09:00Z pfdietz: About json libraries: I've found jsown is much faster than cl-json.
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2019-11-20T20:10:57Z pfdietz: cl-json turns names into keywords, jsown leaves them as strings, but even converting them to keywords manually leaves jsown much faster.
2019-11-20T20:11:40Z pfdietz: phoe: it could be those tests should use string-equal
2019-11-20T20:11:51Z pfdietz: (or equalp)
2019-11-20T20:11:52Z phoe: pfdietz: let me prepare a patch then.
2019-11-20T20:12:04Z phoe: string-equal sounds better because of string typechecks
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2019-11-20T20:23:54Z puchacz: hi, to pass values of dynamic variables (these defparamter / let, I think they are called special variables) to a new thread, I first bind them to local variables in the parent thread like (let ((x1 *x1*)) etc. and then rebind to global symbols again from local variables in the child thread: (let ((*x1* x)) etc. it seems to work.
2019-11-20T20:24:18Z puchacz: can somebody confirm that it is correct please? and is it a portable Common Lisp way or SBCL specific?
2019-11-20T20:24:46Z phoe: puchacz: are you using bordeaux-threads?
2019-11-20T20:24:50Z puchacz: yes
2019-11-20T20:25:07Z phoe: use bt:*default-special-bindings* ¶
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2019-11-20T20:25:21Z phoe: see https://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation for details
2019-11-20T20:25:26Z puchacz: phoe: thanks
2019-11-20T20:26:34Z puchacz: right, so all I need to do is to bind a list variable names  to *default-special-bindings* and I am done?
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2019-11-20T20:27:10Z puchacz: sorry, alist
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2019-11-20T20:28:12Z phoe: yes
2019-11-20T20:28:15Z phoe: try it
2019-11-20T20:29:01Z puchacz: I don't see any example, in my case, will it be '((*x1* . *x1*) (*x2* . *x2*)) ?
2019-11-20T20:29:15Z phoe: it'll bind all the dynavars via PROGV and execute your thread code in its dynamic scope
2019-11-20T20:29:48Z puchacz: well, I guess I can see how it is implemented :-)
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2019-11-20T20:30:12Z phoe: you'll want `((*x1* . ',*x1*) (*x2* . ',*x2*))
2019-11-20T20:30:23Z phoe: if you want to pass literal objects from outside
2019-11-20T20:30:24Z puchacz: phoe, okay, so like in macro
2019-11-20T20:30:29Z phoe: since it calls EVAL on each cdr
2019-11-20T20:30:39Z phoe: so you need a quote to inhibit that
2019-11-20T20:31:03Z puchacz: I see - and it is portable across Lisps I take?
2019-11-20T20:31:13Z puchacz: like the rest of bordeaux?
2019-11-20T20:32:58Z puchacz: and if I just want the same name in car and in cdr of alist elements, it begs for a macro :)
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2019-11-20T20:34:29Z phoe: yes
2019-11-20T20:34:52Z puchacz: phoe, and the way that I described first, is it correct and portable?
2019-11-20T20:35:05Z puchacz: (if you happen to know)
2019-11-20T20:35:22Z phoe: yes, it should be okay
2019-11-20T20:35:26Z phoe: and work across implementations
2019-11-20T20:35:34Z puchacz: thanks!
2019-11-20T20:37:40Z puchacz: is there anything in the standard that (let ...) variables are visible in the child thread or it just a convention that happens to be followed in all major Lisps?
2019-11-20T20:38:28Z phoe: the standard says absolutely nothing about threads
2019-11-20T20:38:30Z jackdaniel: standard does not discuss threads, so it is implementation dependent
2019-11-20T20:38:43Z phoe: the practice is that dynamic variables are invisible unless you explicitly bind them
2019-11-20T20:39:00Z puchacz: I see, so convention that is followed
2019-11-20T20:39:05Z phoe: and lexical variables are visible by standard means - closures
2019-11-20T20:39:06Z jackdaniel: lisp in small pieces discusses various implementations of dynamic bindings
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2019-11-20T20:39:40Z jackdaniel: various /possible/ implementations
2019-11-20T20:40:18Z puchacz: thanks - I am happy to know how the *actual* implementations are to be used :)
2019-11-20T20:41:30Z jackdaniel: then use what bordeaux threads gives you
2019-11-20T20:41:35Z jackdaniel: alternatively you may pass a closure
2019-11-20T20:42:21Z puchacz: jackdaniel - pass a closure from the parent thread to the child thread in a (let ...) variable and it will work, no matter what variables the closure refers to?
2019-11-20T20:42:45Z phoe: (let ((x 42)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (print x))))
2019-11-20T20:42:55Z phoe: this is the simplest closure example
2019-11-20T20:43:10Z phoe: obviously it likely won't print to slime-bound *standard-output*
2019-11-20T20:43:20Z phoe: most likely into the inferior-lisp buffer
2019-11-20T20:43:20Z jackdaniel: puchacz: yes. i.e (let ((x 42)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*something* x)) (call-my-body)))))
2019-11-20T20:43:45Z puchacz: yes, that's what I do.
2019-11-20T20:43:49Z jackdaniel: or, (let ((x *foo*)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*foo* x)) …))
2019-11-20T20:43:53Z phoe: exactly what jackdaniel posted, if for some reason you don't want to use bt:*default-special-bindings*
2019-11-20T20:44:03Z puchacz: jackdaniel - that's exactly what I do
2019-11-20T20:44:04Z phoe: these two ways are equivalent
2019-11-20T20:44:22Z phoe: so using bt:*d-s-b* will clean up your code a little bit
2019-11-20T20:44:36Z jackdaniel: phoe: technically speaking they are not. special bindings may tap into implementation mechanism without creating a closure
2019-11-20T20:44:39Z puchacz: yes, I should have read the manual :)
2019-11-20T20:45:34Z jackdaniel: in practice though bt seems to do just that it seems
2019-11-20T20:45:36Z phoe: jackdaniel: tapping into implementation details - how exactly do they pass values into thread functions then?
2019-11-20T20:45:43Z phoe: I mean, if not via a closure
2019-11-20T20:45:44Z puchacz: for a while I thought you were saying I could (let ((x (lambda() (do-something)))) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (funcall x))) - pass a closure like this
2019-11-20T20:45:59Z phoe: puchacz: you could, but that would be roundabout
2019-11-20T20:46:00Z jackdaniel: phoe: I can imagine an interface (silly                                  (format t "going over ~s~%" col)
2019-11-20T20:46:09Z jackdaniel: sorry, glitch
2019-11-20T20:46:40Z jackdaniel: (fx-impl:make-process my-process :function #'foo :initial-bindings blah)
2019-11-20T20:47:03Z jackdaniel: and then run-process of course, but nvm that
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2019-11-20T20:47:44Z phoe: jackdaniel: I see
2019-11-20T20:47:52Z phoe: doesn't seem practical, but does seem plausible
2019-11-20T20:48:45Z jackdaniel: closures may be more expensive than ordinary functions and given a particular implementation of a dynamic environment it may be practical (performance wise)
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2019-11-20T20:51:50Z puchacz: on another note, I rented a (virtual) 32 core server, exported image on my ubuntu there, with an intention to run some numerical computations (driven from my PC, invoked via simple http calls to the remote computer), and the whole thing managed to crash with messages like "CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 27983(tid 0x7f8ea266f700):" 2 or 3 times
2019-11-20T20:52:43Z jackdaniel: do you by chance run jsown or other library which sets safety to 0 in some functions?
2019-11-20T20:53:32Z puchacz: it is supposed to calculate a goal function for numerical minimisation, each calculation takes parameters via hunchentoot handler, splits work between many threads and then merges result, the calculation takes about 4 seconds.
2019-11-20T20:53:35Z puchacz: jsown, never heard of
2019-11-20T20:55:13Z jackdaniel: I'd grep in my dependencies for (safety 0) to find the culpirt
2019-11-20T20:55:20Z jackdaniel: of course it may be something else
2019-11-20T20:55:26Z puchacz: however it seemed as it was hunchentoot that crashed last time, previous incidents, I did not check - "Session secret is unbound.  Using Lisp's RANDOM function to initialize it." and then "Memory fault at 0x7f94e68f8000 (pc=0x536bf253, fp=0x7f8ea266c158, sp=0x7f8ea266c138) tid 0x7f8ea266f700
2019-11-20T20:55:26Z puchacz: The integrity of this image is possibly compromised."
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2019-11-20T20:55:43Z puchacz: is sbcl stable in true multicore environment?
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2019-11-20T20:55:54Z phoe: on linux, it should be
2019-11-20T20:56:04Z phoe: are you sure that your code is correct and not running with safety off?
2019-11-20T20:56:07Z puchacz: I tried now 16 core virtual computer, I can swap them as they charege per hour
2019-11-20T20:56:41Z phoe: you could (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'safety 3 3) and recompile all of your code to make sure it is compiled with highest safety
2019-11-20T20:57:18Z puchacz: phoe: will it work and override even if there are "optimised" functions somewhere with safety 0?
2019-11-20T20:57:38Z phoe: puchacz: restrict-compiler-policy is stronger than DECLARE OPTIMIZE
2019-11-20T20:57:42Z puchacz: good
2019-11-20T20:57:47Z puchacz: I shall do it then :)
2019-11-20T20:57:54Z phoe: your code would need to restrict-compiler-policy itself to override it
2019-11-20T20:58:06Z phoe: but that is an absolutely dick move and I'd call it a bug any time I see it
2019-11-20T20:58:09Z puchacz: I can grep all libraries that I use
2019-11-20T20:58:31Z phoe: no sane libraries should do that. I haven't seen any that did such a thing.
2019-11-20T20:58:49Z puchacz: okay :) the thing is that sbcl image loads libssl when hunchentoot starts - I think
2019-11-20T20:59:03Z phoe: so that is a bit of foreign code that can screw things up
2019-11-20T20:59:14Z phoe: give us a backtrace if you get another corruption warning
2019-11-20T20:59:14Z puchacz: yeah.
2019-11-20T20:59:22Z phoe: that will tell us much much more about what is going on
2019-11-20T20:59:30Z puchacz: there is not much, I can paste it somewhere - what I got.
2019-11-20T20:59:35Z puchacz: which pastebin shall I use?
2019-11-20T20:59:38Z phoe: any
2019-11-20T20:59:42Z phoe: I use plaster.tymoon.org
2019-11-20T20:59:46Z phoe: uh
2019-11-20T20:59:53Z phoe: I use https://plaster.tymoon.eu
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2019-11-20T21:02:07Z puchacz: this please: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1560#1560
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2019-11-20T21:02:43Z puchacz: I typed (sb-thread:release-foreground), the rest is sbcl output
2019-11-20T21:04:08Z ark: puchacz : Are you running this from a lisp image/executable? If foreign memory is still allocated when the image is created (i.e. when `save-lisp-and-die` is called) it will likely crash the image when you start up again.
2019-11-20T21:04:11Z puchacz: maybe safety and debug?
2019-11-20T21:04:32Z phoe: type BACKTRACE
2019-11-20T21:04:38Z phoe: and press enter
2019-11-20T21:04:44Z puchacz: phoe: next time it happens
2019-11-20T21:04:57Z puchacz: and the restrict compiler policy, maybe add debug?
2019-11-20T21:05:06Z phoe: debug 3 and safety 3, sure
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2019-11-20T21:06:21Z puchacz: ark - it is possible that libssl is being loaded when hunchentoot is loaded from quicklisp, not started later. I don't know. it happened only after few thousand calls, unfortunately few times already
2019-11-20T21:07:18Z phoe: puchacz: one second, did you deploy from a binary instead of from source?
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2019-11-20T21:07:37Z phoe: if yes, how did you deploy your binary? did you close the foreign library before freezing and reopened it after thawing?
2019-11-20T21:08:01Z puchacz: yes, I generated binary on my computer, copied sbcl over to the virtual server and used a command line like this:
2019-11-20T21:08:13Z phoe: HOW did you generate the binary?
2019-11-20T21:08:32Z phoe: did you use Shinmera's deploy or anything else? or just raw save-lisp-and-die?
2019-11-20T21:08:45Z puchacz: run-sbcl.sh --control-stack-size 64 --dynamic-space-size 9144 --core my-binary
2019-11-20T21:08:56Z phoe: because if you didn't close and reopen the foreign library, it is going to segfault
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2019-11-20T21:09:58Z puchacz: this is how I generated binary, from shell:
2019-11-20T21:10:02Z puchacz: sbcl --dynamic-space-size 8192 --eval '(progn (eval (read-from-string "(ql:quickload :swank :verbose t)"))(eval (read-from-string "(ql:quickload :bubrary5 :verbose t)"))(eval (read-from-string "(require :bubrary5)"))(eval (read-from-string "(in-package :bubrary5)"))(eval (read-from-string "(bubrary5::deliver-for-computation)")))'
2019-11-20T21:10:17Z phoe: what is bubrary5
2019-11-20T21:10:18Z puchacz: and deliver for computation has save-and-die in it
2019-11-20T21:10:22Z puchacz: my stuff :)
2019-11-20T21:10:25Z phoe: do you have it online anywhere?
2019-11-20T21:10:27Z ark: puchacz: If it helps, I blogged a little bit about using foreing memory with lisp images (in the context of lisp game development): https://recursive.games/posts/Beware-foreign-memory-in-lisp-images.html
2019-11-20T21:10:30Z puchacz: no
2019-11-20T21:11:03Z puchacz: ark, I will have a look, hunchentoot definitely wants libssl
2019-11-20T21:11:26Z phoe: puchacz: if you wrote the code, then you should know - do you close and reopen libssl?
2019-11-20T21:11:45Z phoe: if you don't, then it's going to break on reloading the image
2019-11-20T21:11:59Z ark: If you're lucky ;)
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2019-11-20T21:12:27Z puchacz: I don't touch libssl myself, and I don't start hunchentoot in deliver-for-computation
2019-11-20T21:13:16Z phoe: puchacz: then your image is broken
2019-11-20T21:13:55Z puchacz: shall I have a closer look what hunchentoot is doing, I hope it is not loading libssl when I is just (require  ...) it and not start?
2019-11-20T21:14:24Z puchacz: phoe: because I did not do something I should have done?
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2019-11-20T21:16:13Z phoe: puchacz: load all of your stuff but do not evaluate DELIVER-FOR-COMPUTATION
2019-11-20T21:16:16Z phoe: instead evaluate (cffi:list-foreign-libraries)
2019-11-20T21:16:39Z phoe: this is the list of libraries that need to be closed before you dump the image and reopened after you reload it
2019-11-20T21:16:51Z phoe: you can check if libssl is in there
2019-11-20T21:16:53Z puchacz: I will try now
2019-11-20T21:17:14Z puchacz: also, it loads my .sbcl of course
2019-11-20T21:18:10Z puchacz: I will delete cache so it will take a while :)
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2019-11-20T21:18:28Z phoe: --no-userinit option to sbcl
2019-11-20T21:18:43Z puchacz: it needs to know where quicklisp is
2019-11-20T21:18:47Z phoe: I'd just use deploy instead and deploy using #'asdf:make
2019-11-20T21:19:11Z phoe: you likely do not want quicklisp in your resulting binary
2019-11-20T21:19:21Z puchacz: okay
2019-11-20T21:19:21Z phoe: all you need is ASDF
2019-11-20T21:19:30Z puchacz: I haven't used it
2019-11-20T21:19:42Z phoe: ASDF is what actually loads and manages dependencies
2019-11-20T21:19:52Z phoe: quicklisp is the layer that automatically downloads them from the net
2019-11-20T21:19:59Z puchacz: ok
2019-11-20T21:20:01Z phoe: so if you are using quicklisp you are using ASDF.
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2019-11-20T21:31:57Z puchacz: how did you know ;) ?
2019-11-20T21:32:07Z puchacz: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/DK0ejyWJ/
2019-11-20T21:33:26Z phoe: puchacz: there
2019-11-20T21:33:56Z phoe: when you thaw the image, the pointer that refers to that foreign library is no longer valid
2019-11-20T21:33:59Z puchacz: I did what you asked me to do - manually started sbcl with the same memory settings, executed forms one by one except for "deliver")
2019-11-20T21:33:59Z phoe: hence segfaults.
2019-11-20T21:34:20Z puchacz: phew!
2019-11-20T21:34:30Z puchacz: I wanted to try another Lisp in desperation on weekend...
2019-11-20T21:34:35Z puchacz: good old sbcl
2019-11-20T21:34:53Z phoe: another lisp would give you similar results
2019-11-20T21:36:17Z puchacz: how to get rid of it please? maybe I shall read ark's blog entry
2019-11-20T21:36:28Z phoe: there are two ways of doing this
2019-11-20T21:37:00Z phoe: one: in your dumping function, manually close the foreign library; in your reloading function, manually reopen the foreign library before you bring hunchentoot up
2019-11-20T21:37:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: puchacz: https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/issues/67
2019-11-20T21:37:05Z phoe: two: use deploy lol
2019-11-20T21:37:25Z puchacz: phoe: does deploy just package source?
2019-11-20T21:37:33Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: oh! so there is even more than that
2019-11-20T21:37:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most ssl stuff on CL uses cl+ssl and you probably need to call (cl+ssl:reload) in your entry point
2019-11-20T21:37:43Z phoe: puchacz: deploy generates binaries
2019-11-20T21:38:32Z puchacz: VERY fruitful discussion by the way
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2019-11-20T21:38:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: The simplest way to solve this sort of problem is to deploy your source code and use ql to load it and start the server
2019-11-20T21:39:14Z phoe: also this
2019-11-20T21:39:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: 90% of the time I don't bother dumping an image when it's my own server
2019-11-20T21:39:22Z phoe: I run from source code whenever possible
2019-11-20T21:40:03Z puchacz: I could do it in this situation, it is for my personal computations and it is my personal rented virtual server
2019-11-20T21:40:27Z puchacz: however being able to create executable for users in general is too useful to give up on it
2019-11-20T21:41:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, it's just more complicated and you have to know a bunch of implementation details
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2019-11-20T21:41:30Z puchacz: fiddlerwoaroof: where can I read about it?
2019-11-20T21:41:48Z puchacz: I guess no article or manual to cover it all
2019-11-20T21:42:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: The sbcl manual has some information and then your libraries can make things more complicated
2019-11-20T21:43:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: FFI in particular makes things complicated, especially if they use something like CFFI-GROVEL
2019-11-20T21:43:47Z puchacz: I don't use anything FFI myself, hunchentoot does. But I will use sqlite at some point
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2019-11-20T21:44:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: One solution is to use the (mostly undocumented) feature of CFFI to statically link all your foreign dependencies into the lisp image
2019-11-20T21:44:41Z puchacz: that would solve version incompatibilities
2019-11-20T21:44:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use this here: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/daydreamer/blob/master/.circleci/config.yml
2019-11-20T21:45:06Z puchacz: okay, thanks
2019-11-20T21:45:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: To release a portable linux binary on github releases
2019-11-20T21:45:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: The "easy way" to do this is to use my fiddlerwoaroof/sbcl-static:1.5.8 docker container, because you need to rebuild sbcl with the right options
2019-11-20T21:46:10Z ark: puchacz: my solution is to unload all foreign libs before the image is saved, then reload them when the image starts up. https://gist.github.com/realark/1b6970a13615a6e389294ab9480d1e09
2019-11-20T21:46:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: And you need a couple of patches to CFFI to make this work
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2019-11-20T21:47:16Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: do you have it anywhere?
2019-11-20T21:47:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: My patches? Some of them have been upstreamed, others are kind of hacky
2019-11-20T21:48:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: But the repositories I've needed to patch are all referenced here: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/daydreamer/blob/master/clone-all-the-things.sh
2019-11-20T21:48:41Z puchacz: doesn't sound like a picnic. I will try ark's solution to unload and load back. but obviously I risk a crash when a user has different library versions
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2019-11-20T21:49:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: To actually build the image, you just do this: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/daydreamer/blob/master/build.lisp#L39
2019-11-20T21:49:48Z puchacz: by the way phoe, do you mean this library for delivery? https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/re55.html
2019-11-20T21:51:15Z _death: there's also uiop:dump-image and friends
2019-11-20T21:51:39Z puchacz: (and switching off my current setup with the virtual server so the meter is not ticking :-) )
2019-11-20T21:51:54Z puchacz: it is broken and I will need to do some reading before redeploying it
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2019-11-20T21:54:30Z puchacz: guys, thank you very much indeed
2019-11-20T21:54:49Z puchacz: I copied this chat and look at the links closely
2019-11-20T21:55:07Z puchacz: then cobble something together
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2019-11-20T21:56:27Z ark: Good luck!
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2019-11-20T21:56:36Z puchacz: cheers
2019-11-20T22:00:48Z phoe: puchacz: https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy
2019-11-20T22:01:01Z puchacz: taking this one as well
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2019-11-21T01:07:43Z dlowe: Anyone have experiense using lem? It looks interesting
2019-11-21T01:08:42Z Xach: steal my sumshime
2019-11-21T01:09:55Z dlowe: Xach: that was a very far reach
2019-11-21T01:10:18Z Xach: only 90s kids would understand
2019-11-21T01:10:27Z dlowe: https://github.com/cxxxr/lem
2019-11-21T01:11:27Z dlowe: One interesting thing it does is provide a docker container so you can try it out with no setup
2019-11-21T01:11:44Z dlowe: which is an interesting solution to the lisp-in-a-box
2019-11-21T01:12:44Z dlowe: Xach: now I must listen to it. It's the law.
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2019-11-21T01:15:11Z Xach: I tried to add lem but there was an issue, I think.
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2019-11-21T01:17:51Z jasom: just because it seems like something that might already exist; a tool for pretty-printing durations to round amounts? e.g. print "3 seconds or "5 minutes" or "2 hours" or "3 days" or "3 weeks" given some type of time duration as input?
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2019-11-21T01:23:09Z oni-on-ion: whoa -- just learned about: (format nil "~r" 1234) ==> "one thousand two hundred thirty-four"
2019-11-21T01:24:24Z oni-on-ion: jasom, i cant seem to find anything built in, perhaps this is helpful? --> https://github.com/quek/simple-date-time
2019-11-21T01:24:47Z oni-on-ion: although it uses CLOS which to me seems too heavy for its purpose
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2019-11-21T01:32:23Z pjb: oni-on-ion: even better: this is the (format nil "~:r" 1234) #| --> "one thousand two hundred thirty-fourth" |# time somebody found it!
2019-11-21T01:32:53Z oni-on-ion: hehe
2019-11-21T01:33:12Z oni-on-ion been avoiding format, printf trauma
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2019-11-21T01:37:35Z oni-on-ion: its possible to do custom formats ? for eg., print digit from 1-26 for alphabet: "abcd -> 1234"
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2019-11-21T01:38:51Z no-defun-allowed: You could use #/, but it's a bit odd.
2019-11-21T01:39:27Z no-defun-allowed: clhs 22.3.5.4
2019-11-21T01:39:27Z specbot: Tilde Slash: Call Function: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm
2019-11-21T01:41:05Z Xach: no-defun-allowed: odd in what way?
2019-11-21T01:41:39Z no-defun-allowed: I recall it being weird with packages.
2019-11-21T01:41:54Z no-defun-allowed: But if you're asking, it probably isn't.
2019-11-21T01:42:56Z Xach: ah. yes, it follows its own rules, separate from how the reader usually works.
2019-11-21T01:43:20Z oni-on-ion: hehe. cool thanks =)
2019-11-21T01:44:03Z no-defun-allowed: I believe it was this part that tripped me up: If name does not contain a ":" or "::", then the whole name string is looked up in the COMMON-LISP-USER package.
2019-11-21T01:47:55Z Xach: there's also no escaping and it's coerced to uppercase.
2019-11-21T01:48:03Z pjb: oni-on-ion: yes. See for example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/163695
2019-11-21T01:48:14Z Xach: so no functions named |///funky monkey///|
2019-11-21T01:50:03Z no-defun-allowed: ):
2019-11-21T01:50:54Z no-defun-allowed: I assume it could be so compilers could generate code for FORMAT rather than interpreting the string. If that rule wasn't there, the effect would be dependent on the current package, but that doesn't seem too difficult to manage
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2019-11-21T01:56:29Z oni-on-ion: pjb thanks, thats a big one . quite cool
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2019-11-21T02:22:39Z jasom: I've used that for escaping strings: (format X "Foo \"~/pkg:escape/\"" bar) is much more obviously correct that (format X "foo \"~a\"" (escape bar)), particularly when you have a long format string or many arguments.
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2019-11-21T02:26:57Z pjb: (format nil "Foo ~S bar" "Hello \" World! \\ <-- ha! \"") #| --> "Foo \"Hello \\\" World! \\\\ <-- ha! \\\"\" bar" |#
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2019-11-21T02:53:24Z vms14: what's the "correct" way for having a group of labelled functions with local variables, should I use let and put the labels inside that let, or make the labelled functions receive them as argument? two of them are recursive and one gets called from another, but needs an argument that the callee does not need
2019-11-21T02:53:45Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/BDXCvvFw4V/
2019-11-21T02:54:24Z vms14: sorry if you cry with the code, but it's a bad implementation of a image format I've created
2019-11-21T02:55:00Z vms14: the image will be a list of positive and negative numbers and the first item will be the width of the image
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2019-11-21T02:55:58Z vms14: positive numbers refer to a color and negative numbers mean steps or points to draw with the current color
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2019-11-21T03:03:40Z aeth: They do different things. If you use the parent environment you're creating a closure.
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2019-11-21T03:06:15Z vms14: aeth: what would you do?
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2019-11-21T03:21:01Z pjb: aeth: only the CL:FUNCTION special operator can create closures.
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2019-11-21T03:50:15Z vms14: oh
2019-11-21T03:50:20Z vms14: I guess I have it
2019-11-21T03:50:31Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/fPCbTNpYSC/
2019-11-21T03:50:42Z vms14: it seems to work, but I'm testing it yet
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2019-11-21T03:52:50Z vms14: nope
2019-11-21T03:52:56Z vms14 cries
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2019-11-21T03:54:39Z vms14: it works xD
2019-11-21T03:56:35Z vms14: https://i.ibb.co/w7CbxmB/554ec0cd7506.png
2019-11-21T03:56:53Z vms14: (draw-image '(14 3 :end 4 :end 3 -3 2 -5 3 :end))
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2019-11-21T04:01:49Z Josh_2: very kewl vms14
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2019-11-21T04:20:03Z vms14: Josh_2: ty but now I need to create a paint software able to export to this weird format I've created
2019-11-21T04:20:45Z oni-on-ion: gimp plugin uses a form of scheme, if that helps =)
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2019-11-21T04:21:06Z vms14: and I have no idea about how I should do it, but since will be for basic pixel art stuff it should be easier
2019-11-21T04:21:25Z vms14: oni-on-ion: right I always forget gimp uses lisp
2019-11-21T04:21:48Z vms14: I have to create a paint or a conversor to other format
2019-11-21T04:21:56Z vms14: with the time I'll need a conversor anyway
2019-11-21T04:22:04Z vms14: but could be funny make a buggy paint
2019-11-21T04:24:29Z oni-on-ion: CL could use some painting code.. is there anything in McCLIM ?
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2019-11-21T04:28:52Z vms14: oni-on-ion: I'm using clx and I saw no way to import images more than monochrome bitmaps
2019-11-21T04:29:46Z vms14: I'm not able to find a library that loads images and can work with clx
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2019-11-21T04:30:30Z vms14: new-clx has support for xpm format, but the old one not, I use the "old" one since I target sbcl
2019-11-21T04:31:02Z oni-on-ion: but pixmaps ?
2019-11-21T04:31:12Z oni-on-ion: ohh clx, right..
2019-11-21T04:31:29Z oni-on-ion: doing raw x11 ?
2019-11-21T04:31:33Z vms14: yes
2019-11-21T04:31:42Z vms14: I did it in C and it's much easier with lisp
2019-11-21T04:31:47Z oni-on-ion: working with colormaps and stuff? x_x
2019-11-21T04:31:51Z vms14: yes
2019-11-21T04:31:54Z oni-on-ion: i've done it in C as well =)
2019-11-21T04:31:56Z vms14: but it's easy
2019-11-21T04:32:00Z oni-on-ion: making window manager ?
2019-11-21T04:32:04Z oni-on-ion: (just curious)
2019-11-21T04:32:09Z vms14: not now
2019-11-21T04:32:16Z vms14: but I'd like in a future
2019-11-21T04:32:27Z vms14: just games
2019-11-21T04:32:29Z oni-on-ion: could always hook up opengl to the window, might be helpful for higher color and hardware acceleration if neede
2019-11-21T04:32:42Z vms14: I see clx loads glx too
2019-11-21T04:35:12Z oni-on-ion: nice =) couple months ago i got some raw pixel blitting happening and it was very fast. so one can use any image loader
2019-11-21T04:35:28Z oni-on-ion: like the recent PNG library for CL which is nice n fast (compared to the previous one, afaik)
2019-11-21T04:36:03Z vms14: oni-on-ion: if you know xlib you'll love clx
2019-11-21T04:36:39Z vms14: if you want to get started I recommend to google for "simple clx", they're simple examples and knowing xlib you'll easily get the difference
2019-11-21T04:37:11Z oni-on-ion: i can imagine =) however i am just using raylib for now. its a nice library, than SDL(2), and works for win32 and the web as well.
2019-11-21T04:37:26Z vms14: http://www.cawtech.demon.co.uk/clx/simple/examples.html
2019-11-21T04:37:35Z oni-on-ion: for using opengl, i had it rendering Cairo onto opengl texture then to window in real time at hyper speed on old hardware
2019-11-21T04:37:46Z vms14: seems interesting
2019-11-21T04:37:53Z oni-on-ion: using... glTexSubImage2D =)
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2019-11-21T04:39:19Z oni-on-ion: (cairo because i needed vector and also font. also the API is just about interchangeable (especially with ocaml!!) with html5 canvas so that my work could run on any modern system incl. mobile and game console)
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2019-11-21T04:41:41Z vms14: oh so it uses opengl and webgl
2019-11-21T04:42:13Z vms14: it's a great choice
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2019-11-21T04:42:56Z vms14: I only target linux and NetBSD
2019-11-21T04:43:02Z vms14: and maybe sbcl
2019-11-21T04:43:21Z oni-on-ion: cool =) i honestly would too but i want to show my friends who only have mobile, and my tablet is stuck with windows8.1
2019-11-21T04:43:47Z vms14: it's nice, I always wanted in secret to develop stuff for smartphones
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2019-11-21T04:44:33Z oni-on-ion: they are cheap and quite powerful. my desktop feels like wooden carriage
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2019-11-21T04:46:43Z vms14: this is the total ram memory in my pc 2047 MB, so yes
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2019-11-21T04:50:17Z oni-on-ion: hehe i've had that last year. this year i've had 4gb
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2019-11-21T05:15:15Z aeth: vms14: how to structure internal functions is sort of just a matter of taste.
2019-11-21T05:15:20Z aeth: they're fairly rare in CL, anyway.
2019-11-21T05:15:27Z aeth: At least that's the impression I get.
2019-11-21T05:26:07Z vms14: aeth: yes, but I'd like to learn how to write "correct" code
2019-11-21T05:26:16Z vms14: and I'm trying to avoid think in optimization
2019-11-21T05:26:30Z vms14: just how to do the stuff
2019-11-21T05:26:56Z vms14: think in optimization limits you so much while designing something
2019-11-21T05:28:17Z vms14: this is also why I think C programming limits your mind
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2019-11-21T06:08:55Z pjb: oni-on-ion: cliki.net references several graphic toolkits.  I would suggest pgl, since it's very simple. (However it's not native).  Depending on the sophistication of your paint application, and the target systems, McCLIM or CLX could be good choices too.
2019-11-21T06:10:31Z pjb: oni-on-ion: https://www.cliki.net/pgl
2019-11-21T06:11:26Z oni-on-ion: i think it was vms14 who is doing current clx work. i will regard this new information
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2019-11-21T07:23:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-21T07:25:05Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning beach!
2019-11-21T07:25:16Z Josh_2: Mornin
2019-11-21T07:25:53Z ebrasca: Morning beach!
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2019-11-21T07:26:47Z phoe: morniiing
2019-11-21T07:26:59Z Shinmera: jasom: https://github.com/Shirakumo/maiden/blob/master/toolkit.lisp#L111
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2019-11-21T08:11:57Z Harag: What should the method-combination-type-name be in find-method-combination if I am trying to check if method z has a specialization on class a for (defmethod z ((var a)))
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2019-11-21T08:37:14Z beach: Harag: Usually the method combination is STANDARD.
2019-11-21T08:37:23Z beach: Harag: But I am not sure that is what you want.
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2019-11-21T08:39:12Z beach: Harag: I am thinking you probably want to call METHOD-SPECIALIZERS on every method on Z instead.
2019-11-21T08:40:07Z Shinmera: or just FIND-METHOD
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2019-11-21T08:40:23Z Shinmera: depending on what the circumstances are
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2019-11-21T08:40:34Z beach: Sure, yes.
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2019-11-21T09:07:05Z Harag: i just want to check if the method combination exists
2019-11-21T09:08:19Z beach: Are you sure you know what "method combination" means?
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2019-11-21T09:12:45Z Harag: beach: most likely not
2019-11-21T09:13:13Z Harag: (find-method #'z '() (list (find-class 'a))) does the job
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2019-11-21T09:18:16Z Harag: but (find-method #'z '() (list (find-class 'b))) gives me an error, I was expecting nil ??
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2019-11-21T09:24:15Z phoe: Harag: which error?
2019-11-21T09:24:56Z phoe: find-class is going to signal an error if class B doesn't exist
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2019-11-21T09:25:12Z _death: it has an errorp parameter
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2019-11-21T09:36:11Z phoe: _death: find-method is going to signal an error anyway if you call it like (find-method #'z '() (list nil))
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2019-11-21T09:39:02Z _death: nil is not a class or a list (eql something)
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2019-11-21T09:40:32Z Harag: _death: thanx did not see errorp parameter, and I should never have the nil issue so its ok
2019-11-21T09:42:01Z phoe: _death: but NIL is what (find-class ... nil) will return in that case
2019-11-21T09:42:15Z phoe: if it can't find the class
2019-11-21T09:42:31Z _death: phoe: the misunderstanding is that you think I referred to find-class, while I referred to find-method
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2019-11-21T09:43:33Z Harag: find-class was just to simplify the example I am actually looping through a list of super classes
2019-11-21T09:44:14Z Harag: so should not end up with a nil in the class list ever
2019-11-21T09:48:34Z phoe: _death: welp, I see
2019-11-21T09:49:25Z _death: anaphora bites again
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2019-11-21T12:02:22Z phoe: reviving yesterday's float-printing discussion - time to debate FORMAT.F.45
2019-11-21T12:02:36Z phoe: (def-format-test format.f.45 "~2f" (1.1) "1.0")
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2019-11-21T12:02:58Z phoe: once again we have floats that do not fit inside their field
2019-11-21T12:03:18Z phoe: so I assume that we only print the first decimal place
2019-11-21T12:03:40Z phoe: so the correct printed value in that case would be "1.1" because we do not want to lose precision and since we print that decimal place anyway
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2019-11-21T12:08:04Z phoe: so I argue, following jackdaniel's advice, that ANSI-TEST is incorrect in this case (;
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2019-11-21T12:10:09Z jackdaniel: "hen a sequence of digits, containing a single embedded decimal point, is printed; this represents the magnitude of the value of arg times 10^k, rounded to d fractional digits. " and *after* that we have "If it is impossible to print the value in the required format then …"
2019-11-21T12:10:35Z jackdaniel: so this test seems to be correct given we follow the order in which things are specified in ~f section (22.3.3.1)
2019-11-21T12:11:38Z jackdaniel: as in: first we round to number of fractional digits (in our case 0), then we add extra space to have a float
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2019-11-21T12:13:06Z phoe: hmmmm
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2019-11-21T12:14:02Z jackdaniel: for more fun and giggles to (format t "~2f" 1.999)
2019-11-21T12:14:03Z phoe: note that D is nil
2019-11-21T12:14:13Z phoe: "~2f" does not specify D
2019-11-21T12:14:25Z jackdaniel: I'm talking about paragraph describing w
2019-11-21T12:14:51Z phoe: yes, you are
2019-11-21T12:15:00Z phoe: but you cannot round to D fractional digits if D is nil
2019-11-21T12:15:33Z jackdaniel: W = integral-digits + 1 + D
2019-11-21T12:15:40Z jackdaniel: with an exception for few corner cases
2019-11-21T12:15:57Z jackdaniel: but in this case fractional digits is 0, because 2 = 1 + 1 + D
2019-11-21T12:16:07Z jackdaniel: that's why I've phrased the sentence before the way I did
2019-11-21T12:16:39Z phoe: > W = integral-digits + 1 + D
2019-11-21T12:16:42Z jackdaniel: you shouldn't have highlighted me, now that you did you have the above disagreement ,p
2019-11-21T12:16:44Z phoe: where is that specified?
2019-11-21T12:17:01Z phoe: jackdaniel: I'd rather disagree than make an invalid MR or an invalid test
2019-11-21T12:17:12Z jackdaniel: w is the width of the fileld to be printed and d is the number of digits to print after the decimal point - literally the first paragraph
2019-11-21T12:17:24Z phoe: yes, I can see that
2019-11-21T12:17:26Z jackdaniel: so W = D + all-characters-before-fractional-digits
2019-11-21T12:17:50Z phoe: why can I specify D on my own then if it depends only on W
2019-11-21T12:18:17Z phoe: you don't seem to take e.g. padding into account
2019-11-21T12:18:27Z phoe: oh wait, you do
2019-11-21T12:18:42Z jackdaniel: W = D-if-unspecified + all-characters-before-fractional-digits
2019-11-21T12:18:53Z jackdaniel: or whatever, either way this test is correct imo
2019-11-21T12:18:58Z phoe: still - I cannot see the default value of D anywhere
2019-11-21T12:19:34Z phoe: let me process it for a moment
2019-11-21T12:19:37Z jackdaniel: if the parameter d is omitted, then there is no constraint on the number of digits to appear after the decimal point. a value is chosen for d ...
2019-11-21T12:19:48Z jackdaniel: so it *is* described in the very same seciton.
2019-11-21T12:19:51Z phoe: jackdaniel: there!
2019-11-21T12:19:55Z phoe: yes, thanks
2019-11-21T12:20:30Z phoe: ...
2019-11-21T12:20:33Z phoe: ...except that if the fraction to be printed is zero, then a single zero digit should appear after the decimal point if permitted by the width constraint.
2019-11-21T12:20:41Z phoe: "if permitted by the width constraint"
2019-11-21T12:20:51Z jackdaniel: I should start working as a voice over; where I read the CLHS in a dramaticcal voice :)
2019-11-21T12:20:56Z phoe: this implies that printing "1234." is correct if the width is 5
2019-11-21T12:20:57Z jackdaniel: dramatical*
2019-11-21T12:21:13Z phoe: which seems to invalidate the conclusions of our previous discussion
2019-11-21T12:21:23Z phoe: wtf
2019-11-21T12:22:12Z jackdaniel: I think we read this sentence differently
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2019-11-21T12:23:34Z jackdaniel: as in "if permitted by the width constraint" in case that "d is ommited" -- it is a tautology, because "the next arg is printed as float", and "1234." is not float
2019-11-21T12:24:17Z jackdaniel: so w  /always/ permits the last 0 due to the paragraph about too small field width
2019-11-21T12:24:29Z phoe: If the parameter d is omitted, then there is no constraint on the number of digits to appear after the decimal point. A value is chosen for d in such a way that as many digits as possible may be printed subject to the width constraint imposed by the parameter w and the constraint that no trailing zero digits may appear in the fraction, except that if the fraction to be printed is zero, then a single zero digit
2019-11-21T12:24:31Z jackdaniel: unless d is deliberely set to 0
2019-11-21T12:24:36Z phoe: should appear after the decimal point if permitted by the width constraint.
2019-11-21T12:24:59Z jackdaniel: and width constraint always permits a digit after the decimal point because of the above
2019-11-21T12:25:03Z jackdaniel: as I said, tautology
2019-11-21T12:25:17Z phoe: OK
2019-11-21T12:25:59Z jackdaniel: what could be arguable is whether d may be 0 or not
2019-11-21T12:26:22Z jackdaniel: because if it may, then it stays in opposition to the first paragraph, argument is then not printed as a float
2019-11-21T12:26:29Z phoe: d = 0 means "print 0 digits after the decimal points"
2019-11-21T12:26:34Z phoe: s/points/point/
2019-11-21T12:26:55Z jackdaniel: I know what it means, and I'm saying that it is arguable that it is a correct specifier for ~f
2019-11-21T12:27:13Z phoe: I agree
2019-11-21T12:27:24Z phoe: you can't print a float with zero digits after the decimal point
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2019-11-21T12:27:44Z phoe: especially because already 1. means a different thing in CL - namely, read this in base 10
2019-11-21T12:28:13Z jackdaniel: I've taken the interpretation that if d is explicitly set to 0 then user knows what they do, but imo it wouldn't be violating the spec if implementation signaled an error for d=0
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2019-11-21T12:29:18Z phoe: if W is 2, then we have two spaces for printing the float
2019-11-21T12:29:34Z phoe: if we print 1.1, then one is the first digit before the point and the other is the point
2019-11-21T12:29:44Z phoe: so effectively d is equal to 0 in that case
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2019-11-21T12:29:55Z jackdaniel: I don't understand what you are saying to me
2019-11-21T12:30:10Z phoe: we want to print 1.1 using "~2f"
2019-11-21T12:30:19Z phoe: we have a field of width 2
2019-11-21T12:30:19Z jackdaniel: then it should be printed as 1.0
2019-11-21T12:30:31Z jackdaniel: because float does not fit in 2 characters
2019-11-21T12:30:38Z phoe: yes, and this implies that d is implicitly set to 0
2019-11-21T12:30:55Z jackdaniel: I can see one digit after "."
2019-11-21T12:31:04Z jackdaniel: so this doesn't hold
2019-11-21T12:31:20Z phoe: "d=0" doesn't mean "print nothing after the decimal point"
2019-11-21T12:31:33Z phoe: if d was 1, then we would be allowed to print it as 1.1
2019-11-21T12:31:40Z phoe: so d cannot be 1
2019-11-21T12:31:51Z jackdaniel: no we wouldn't
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2019-11-21T12:31:55Z jackdaniel: because overall width is 2
2019-11-21T12:32:13Z phoe: my question is - if overall width is 2, then what value is chosen for d?
2019-11-21T12:32:28Z phoe: "A value is chosen for d in such a way that (...)"
2019-11-21T12:32:41Z phoe: for width 2 and float being 1.1, *what* value is chosen for d?
2019-11-21T12:33:22Z jackdaniel: in this case there is a single digit after the decimal point
2019-11-21T12:33:31Z phoe: I know that there is a single digit after the decimal point
2019-11-21T12:33:33Z jackdaniel: I still don't understand you, d is ommited so there is no d value
2019-11-21T12:33:51Z phoe: correct, i do not pass D
2019-11-21T12:34:08Z phoe: and the spec means that then it is the formatter that chooses a value for D
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2019-11-21T12:34:34Z phoe: because "If the parameter d is omitted, then (...) A value is chosen for d (...)"
2019-11-21T12:34:46Z phoe: what is the value that gets chosen for 1.1 and W=2?
2019-11-21T12:35:16Z jackdaniel: 1, not 0
2019-11-21T12:35:24Z phoe: D is 1
2019-11-21T12:35:25Z jackdaniel: because number of digits after the decimal point is 1
2019-11-21T12:35:31Z phoe: so we are allowed to print the first decimal place
2019-11-21T12:35:42Z phoe: because then "~2f" is equivalent to "~2,1f"
2019-11-21T12:35:47Z phoe: because in both cases D is 1
2019-11-21T12:35:49Z jackdaniel: no, because it doesn't fit in w and we round the number first
2019-11-21T12:35:55Z jackdaniel: (format nil "~2,1f" 1.1) is still 1.0
2019-11-21T12:36:11Z phoe: "..rounded to d fractional digits"
2019-11-21T12:36:15Z phoe: and we do not provide D
2019-11-21T12:36:18Z phoe: so D is chosen
2019-11-21T12:36:22Z phoe: and it is chosen to be 1
2019-11-21T12:36:42Z jackdaniel: D is chosen after rounding
2019-11-21T12:36:51Z jackdaniel: it is not said /when/ the formatter choses the value
2019-11-21T12:36:56Z phoe: we cannot choose D after rounding if we need D to perform the rounding
2019-11-21T12:37:14Z phoe: and we need it to perform the rounding because we need to round to D digits
2019-11-21T12:37:50Z jackdaniel: OK, then D=0 and we print one digit, what contradicts second paragraph
2019-11-21T12:38:29Z phoe: but D=0 is invalid since we cannot print 0 decimal digits
2019-11-21T12:38:30Z jackdaniel: I wouldn't hold too tightly to wording "a value is chosen for d"
2019-11-21T12:38:36Z phoe: we've discussed that one a little bit higher
2019-11-21T12:38:58Z phoe: and that would mean that the strict minimum for D is 1
2019-11-21T12:39:24Z phoe: jackdaniel: I'd actually hold on to that - this is the part that describes the constraints for auto-choosing D if the user does not provide it themselves
2019-11-21T12:39:44Z jackdaniel: I do not agree with such interpretation, I've only said that I wouldn't say that if implementation signals error for d=0 is violating the spec
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2019-11-21T12:40:08Z jackdaniel: in fact I've decided that allowing specifying d=0 is more useful and left it that way
2019-11-21T12:40:34Z phoe: if we tell the float-printer that "0 is the number of digits to print after the decimal point"
2019-11-21T12:40:39Z phoe: then it doesn't print a float
2019-11-21T12:41:08Z jackdaniel: "is rounded to d fractional digits" imo refers to *specified* d, and if d is not specified we take whatever fits w and after that we match value of d
2019-11-21T12:41:51Z jackdaniel: yes, I've said that. "d=0 is arguably correct blah blah"
2019-11-21T12:42:18Z phoe: if we follow it this way, then we do not specify D, so we DO NOT round number 1.1 to D specified digits
2019-11-21T12:42:48Z phoe: and then, "If the parameter d is omitted (...)", we choose D to be 1
2019-11-21T12:43:43Z jackdaniel: I think you go in circles, I disagree with your interpretation and I've said why above (a few times), I have other things to do now
2019-11-21T12:43:56Z phoe: OK, I'll re-read it a few more times
2019-11-21T12:44:36Z phoe: < jackdaniel> as in: first we round to number of fractional digits (in our case 0)
2019-11-21T12:45:11Z phoe: I still think you inferred "D is unspecified → D is 0" in that case
2019-11-21T12:46:52Z phoe: so D = W - integral-digits - 1
2019-11-21T12:47:17Z phoe: except for a few corner cases... blah, this is one of these corner cases
2019-11-21T12:47:58Z jackdaniel: no, because disregarding how you specify D, if W is 2, then you'll have 1.0 here
2019-11-21T12:48:04Z jackdaniel: even if you specify D=999999999999999999999
2019-11-21T12:49:03Z jackdaniel: and if you were printing 1.999, then you will have 2.0
2019-11-21T12:52:09Z phoe: OK, let me go through the algorithm one step at a time.
2019-11-21T12:52:41Z jackdaniel minimizes the window because he gets distracted from the work
2019-11-21T12:52:46Z phoe: Number is 1.1;  W is 2;  D, K, padchar, atsign are NIL.
2019-11-21T12:53:04Z phoe: Constraint: we must print the number as a float.
2019-11-21T12:54:22Z phoe: "Exactly w characters will be output." This is impossible to satisfy because the only float that we can print in two characters is 0.0. Therefore, "the scaled value is printed using more than w characters, as many more as may be needed."
2019-11-21T12:54:31Z phoe: So we will use three characters.
2019-11-21T12:55:00Z phoe: So now "a sequence of digits, containing a single embedded decimal point, is printed; this represents the magnitude of the value of arg times 10^k, rounded to d fractional digits."
2019-11-21T12:55:42Z phoe: I cannot round the value to D digits because D was not provided. So either "a value is chosen for D" right now, or I signal a type error in my head.
2019-11-21T12:57:16Z phoe: I am trying to literally follow the algorithm from the spec. (And I silently hope that I'm doing it correctly.)
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2019-11-21T12:59:32Z phoe: Where is my reasoning wrong?
2019-11-21T12:59:44Z phoe: Is the spec not clear here?
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2019-11-21T13:04:52Z jackdaniel: only during "then a sequence of digits ... is printed"  the fourth paragraph is triggered, that you print the scaled value with as many character as is needed. no mention of rounding now (only about scaling by factor k)
2019-11-21T13:05:53Z jackdaniel: so you print first character, second character, and then you add as many characters as needed to achieve a valid float from already printed characters
2019-11-21T13:06:30Z jackdaniel: if we want to treat wordly specification as algorithm
2019-11-21T13:06:45Z jackdaniel: (what is a debatable approach)
2019-11-21T13:06:47Z nirved: jackdaniel: "except that if the fraction to be printed is zero, then a single zero digit should appear after the decimal point if permitted by the width constraint."
2019-11-21T13:07:45Z nirved: so (format nil "~2f" 1.1) => "1."
2019-11-21T13:08:21Z jackdaniel: nirved: we've already discussed it
2019-11-21T13:08:34Z jackdaniel: see the very first paragraph: "arg is printed as float"
2019-11-21T13:08:47Z jackdaniel: if "width constraint can't be satisfied, extra characters are added"
2019-11-21T13:08:52Z jackdaniel: so to print a float you must add 0
2019-11-21T13:08:57Z jackdaniel: 1.0 in this case
2019-11-21T13:09:07Z pjb: or 1 why not?
2019-11-21T13:09:11Z pjb: 1.1
2019-11-21T13:09:22Z jackdaniel: so as noted before this "if permitted by the width constraint" is a tautology
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2019-11-21T13:10:10Z jackdaniel tried his best to explain why not
2019-11-21T13:10:34Z phoe: so we print a sequence of digits that represents some object X
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2019-11-21T13:10:47Z phoe: that object X is a float that is rounded to D fractional digits
2019-11-21T13:11:01Z jackdaniel: NO
2019-11-21T13:11:02Z phoe: so we need D to be able to compute that sequence
2019-11-21T13:11:17Z phoe: "Then a sequence of digits, containing a single embedded decimal point, is printed; this represents the magnitude of the value of arg times 10^k, rounded to d fractional digits."
2019-11-21T13:11:34Z phoe: "a sequence of digits (...) represents the magnitude of the value of arg times 10^k, rounded to d fractional digits."
2019-11-21T13:11:38Z jackdaniel: you can't fit the number in width, so you do not round it beforehand, I've said it explicitly above
2019-11-21T13:11:58Z nirved: having zero fractional digits makes it integer
2019-11-21T13:12:29Z pjb: When w is not enough, it's printed as ~F (format nil "~F" 1.1) #| --> "1.1" |#  not 1.0
2019-11-21T13:12:42Z phoe: pjb: what implementations do is irrelevant
2019-11-21T13:12:49Z jackdaniel gives up repeating himself
2019-11-21T13:13:09Z phoe: jackdaniel: it seems that the spec is going in circles
2019-11-21T13:13:09Z pjb: phoe: I'm saying this is my understanding, not the implementation.
2019-11-21T13:13:31Z phoe: and I'm trying to figure out where exactly it loops or where it contradicts itself
2019-11-21T13:13:48Z jackdaniel: imo it doesn't loop nor contradict itself
2019-11-21T13:14:04Z pjb: all implementations print "1." for ~2F but ecl which prints "1.0"; I'd deem them all wrong.
2019-11-21T13:14:05Z jackdaniel: and that the test is correct
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2019-11-21T13:14:24Z phoe: jackdaniel: if it's correct, then I've arrived at a conclusion that D is required to compute the sequence of digits that is then printed
2019-11-21T13:14:52Z jackdaniel: imo your conclusion is wrong
2019-11-21T13:15:06Z phoe: OK - which step of my trainthought is wrong?
2019-11-21T13:15:08Z nirved: "single zero digit should appear after the decimal point if permitted" makes it clear that a zero might not appear after decimal point
2019-11-21T13:15:17Z phoe: nirved: except for 1.0
2019-11-21T13:15:23Z phoe: where it MUST appear otherwise it's not a float
2019-11-21T13:15:25Z jackdaniel:  jackdaniel> only during "then a sequence of digits ... is printed"  the fourth paragraph is triggered, that you print the scaled value with as many character as is needed. no mention
2019-11-21T13:15:29Z jackdaniel:                     of rounding now (only about scaling by factor k)
2019-11-21T13:15:32Z jackdaniel: 14:06 < jackdaniel> so you print first character, second character, and then you add as many characters as needed to achieve a valid float from already printed characters
2019-11-21T13:15:35Z jackdaniel: 14:07 < jackdaniel> if we want to treat wordly specification as algorithm
2019-11-21T13:15:54Z pjb: We'd need an expert system to interpret clhs entries formally.
2019-11-21T13:15:56Z jackdaniel: wow, I've repeated myself again. I can't stick to my declarations
2019-11-21T13:16:27Z jackdaniel: or rather "I'm not able to stick to them"
2019-11-21T13:16:45Z phoe: > so you print first character, second character, and then you add as many characters as needed to achieve a valid float from already printed characters
2019-11-21T13:16:59Z phoe: add as many characters as needed, so I add one character
2019-11-21T13:17:20Z phoe: with that I agree, we need one more decimal digit to make "1." a float
2019-11-21T13:17:45Z phoe: now let me parse "only during "then a sequence of digits ... is printed"  the fourth paragraph is triggered, that you print the scaled value with as many character as is needed. no mention of rounding now (only about scaling by factor k)"
2019-11-21T13:18:39Z jackdaniel: (handler-case (print-rounded arg) (overlow () (print-valid-digits arg) (add-missing-part)))
2019-11-21T13:18:42Z phoe: so you mean that the paragraph "Then a sequence of digits (...) is printed" does NOT invoke the paragraph "A value is chosen for d (...)" ?
2019-11-21T13:20:02Z jackdaniel: so in this exceptional case we indeed treat d as 0 and add .0 to have a valid float
2019-11-21T13:20:48Z nirved: does "containing a single embedded decimal point" mean that the decimal point must be surrounded by digits?
2019-11-21T13:21:02Z jackdaniel: nirved: no, .42 is a valid float
2019-11-21T13:21:12Z jackdaniel: 12. is not a valid float (it is a valid integer though)
2019-11-21T13:21:18Z phoe: I still do not understand *this* part - why do we treat D as 0? Where does that page specify it? Why is D even allowed to be 0 if it means "print 0 decimal digits" which in turn implies that the number is not printed as a float which contradicts the very first paragraph of ~F?
2019-11-21T13:22:13Z jackdaniel: we treat D as 0 because W is to small to hold more D. Then we add .0 to have a valid float.
2019-11-21T13:22:53Z phoe: "If the overflowchar parameter is omitted, then the scaled value is printed using more than w characters, as many more as may be needed."
2019-11-21T13:23:05Z phoe: this means to me that W might as well be 3, since we print using three characters anyway
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2019-11-21T13:23:14Z jackdaniel: and by we treat D as 0 I mean the number of fractional digits we round to, not how many fractional digits are printed.
2019-11-21T13:23:19Z phoe: so "~2f" and "~3f" are equivalent for 1.1
2019-11-21T13:23:21Z phoe: OK, I see.
2019-11-21T13:23:25Z phoe: Let me process for a moment...
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2019-11-21T13:23:38Z phoe: "d is the number of digits to print after the decimal point"
2019-11-21T13:23:47Z jackdaniel: also, "we use more characters as needed" is not equivalent to "W is now as many characters as we need"
2019-11-21T13:24:00Z phoe: "rounded to d fractional digits"
2019-11-21T13:24:07Z phoe: So D has two functions.
2019-11-21T13:24:07Z jackdaniel: OK, let me use letter D' (d prim)
2019-11-21T13:24:17Z phoe: One - how many digits do we print
2019-11-21T13:24:23Z phoe: Two - how many decimal points do we round to.
2019-11-21T13:24:43Z phoe: And in case of 0 these two contradict each other.
2019-11-21T13:24:49Z jackdaniel: I.e to three decimal points: 3... ;-)
2019-11-21T13:25:08Z phoe: Because we need to round to 0 decimal points but we MUST NOT print 0 decimal digits.
2019-11-21T13:25:38Z phoe: OK. Now I understand.
2019-11-21T13:26:07Z phoe: I will annotate the ANSI-TEST with this reasoning, so other people will luckily not need to have this discussion again.
2019-11-21T13:26:15Z phoe: Thank you for your patience.
2019-11-21T13:26:33Z jackdaniel: I'm not patient, rage fueled me ;)
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2019-11-21T13:27:34Z phoe: Thank you for your rage. (,
2019-11-21T13:27:55Z nirved: (format nil "~,-1f" 1.1) => "1.0"
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2019-11-21T13:28:57Z phoe: nirved: D is not allowed to be negative
2019-11-21T13:29:12Z phoe: you cannot print -1 decimal points
2019-11-21T13:29:15Z nirved: where does it say so?
2019-11-21T13:29:44Z jackdaniel: how many is -1 characters?
2019-11-21T13:30:09Z nirved: zero
2019-11-21T13:30:10Z jackdaniel: (format nil "~,-1f" 33.14) ; -> 33 ;?
2019-11-21T13:30:20Z jackdaniel: that's some creative math
2019-11-21T13:30:46Z jackdaniel: that said -1 works on my repl ;)
2019-11-21T13:31:14Z jackdaniel: as 0 indeed. I'd expect a very restrictive implementation to signal an error
2019-11-21T13:31:22Z nirved: some give "33.0", others "33."
2019-11-21T13:31:36Z jackdaniel: that's another story
2019-11-21T13:32:16Z nirved: ccl gives an error
2019-11-21T13:32:18Z phoe: nirved: this case is where a lot of implementations go weird
2019-11-21T13:32:29Z phoe: this is why I'm trying to dig into the spec instead of asking the impls
2019-11-21T13:33:10Z nirved: would "1." be allowed when *print-readably* is nil?
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2019-11-21T13:36:37Z phoe: "~F binds *print-escape* to false and *print-readably* to false."
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2019-11-21T13:40:41Z nirved: then "1." is a valid output
2019-11-21T13:41:18Z jackdaniel: is 1. a float?
2019-11-21T13:41:45Z nirved: "1." when read gives an integer
2019-11-21T13:41:51Z phoe: is 1. required to be readable by the Lisp reader as a float if *print-readably* is explicitly NIL?
2019-11-21T13:41:56Z jackdaniel: could you read to me the first paragraph of 22.3.31?
2019-11-21T13:42:10Z jackdaniel: 22.3.3.1 *
2019-11-21T13:42:11Z jackdaniel: sorry
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2019-11-21T13:43:48Z phoe: "The next arg is printed as a float."
2019-11-21T13:43:56Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_acac.htm
2019-11-21T13:43:57Z phoe: "there is always at least one digit on each side of the decimal point."
2019-11-21T13:44:01Z jackdaniel: I was asking nirved
2019-11-21T13:44:06Z phoe: so .0 is invalid as well, lol
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2019-11-21T13:44:32Z jackdaniel: it is not, because it .42 is explicitly mentioned as an exceptional situation
2019-11-21T13:44:36Z jackdaniel: in 22.3.3.1
2019-11-21T13:45:26Z phoe: 22.3.3.1? grepping the page for ".42" shows me nothing
2019-11-21T13:45:32Z nirved: jackdaniel: if *print-readably* is false, then ~f is not required to print a readable float in all and every case
2019-11-21T13:46:19Z nirved: (in my understanding)
2019-11-21T13:46:36Z jackdaniel: phoe: Leading zeros are not permitted, except that a single zero digit is output before the decimal point if the printed value is less than one, and this single zero digit is not output at all if w=d+1.
2019-11-21T13:47:40Z phoe: Yes, I see.
2019-11-21T13:47:43Z jackdaniel: nirved: sure, but the paragraph says "next arg is printed as a float", not a readable float. is 1. a float?
2019-11-21T13:48:04Z nirved: jackdaniel: yes and no
2019-11-21T13:48:18Z phoe: jackdaniel: are there floats that are non-readable?
2019-11-21T13:48:30Z phoe: if not, then "float" and "readable float" mean one and the same thing
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2019-11-21T13:48:59Z phoe: and therefore all floats must be readable
2019-11-21T13:49:11Z jackdaniel: phoe: I'm only trying to follow nirved. From not readable floats I can think of infinities
2019-11-21T13:49:14Z nirved: my bad english, i mean "readable as a float"
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2019-11-21T13:50:34Z phoe: jackdaniel: AFAIK the CL standard doesn't define infinities
2019-11-21T13:50:40Z jackdaniel: nirved: I thought you've built your argument on print-readably, not print-readably-as-a-float ,) that said, why 14. is a float?
2019-11-21T13:50:55Z jackdaniel: phoe: but does it forbid them?
2019-11-21T13:51:26Z jackdaniel: the question is whether existance of non-readable floats violates the spec, not whether spec defines floats which are not readable
2019-11-21T13:51:29Z phoe: jackdaniel: nope, it doesn't forbid them
2019-11-21T13:51:46Z jackdaniel: s/is whether/is about/
2019-11-21T13:52:01Z jackdaniel: meh, nvm that correction
2019-11-21T13:52:36Z nirved: jackdaniel: outside of the standard, when I see 14. it looks more like a float than an integer to me
2019-11-21T13:52:52Z phoe: nirved: we're sadly not outside of the standard
2019-11-21T13:53:10Z phoe: anyway: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/merge_requests/33/diffs is me commenting on FORMAT.F.45
2019-11-21T13:53:52Z phoe: if someone could review it in a spare while before it gets a chance to be merged then I'd be grateful
2019-11-21T13:55:32Z jackdaniel: makes sense. I'd also change the test to check the other case: "~2f ~2f" (1.1 1.9) "1.0 2.0"
2019-11-21T13:56:50Z phoe: jackdaniel: added in another commit
2019-11-21T13:57:38Z phoe: ...the more I work with the ANSI spec the more tempted I am to revive ultraspec
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2019-11-21T13:57:47Z phoe: maybe later™
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2019-11-21T14:00:23Z phoe: jackdaniel: newlines added.
2019-11-21T14:01:09Z jackdaniel: please squash first and third commits
2019-11-21T14:03:02Z phoe: jackdaniel: would it be okay to squash all three together?
2019-11-21T14:03:14Z phoe: Or would you rather have the 2nd commit separate?
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2019-11-21T14:03:39Z jackdaniel: I'm indifferent to that
2019-11-21T14:03:49Z phoe: If squashing everything is okay, then GitLab is capable of squashing everything on merge - I've selected that option
2019-11-21T14:07:15Z phoe: (and I don't need to do anything ;)
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2019-11-21T14:13:14Z phoe: jackdaniel: thanks!
2019-11-21T14:14:39Z jackdaniel: sure
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2019-11-21T14:30:34Z phoe: jackdaniel: (format nil "~0f" 0.01) should similarly be ;=> .0 since we round to 0 decimal digits, correct?
2019-11-21T14:31:26Z jackdaniel: yes
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2019-11-21T14:36:01Z jackdaniel: and under arguably incorrect interpretation (format nil "~0,0f" 0.01) will  be 0.
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2019-11-21T14:38:08Z phoe: the last zero is not output if and only if w=d+1
2019-11-21T14:38:12Z phoe: but W and D are both zero
2019-11-21T14:38:42Z phoe: so obviously this passage does not apply, since 0=0+1 is false (,
2019-11-21T14:38:47Z phoe: siiigh
2019-11-21T14:40:27Z jackdaniel: I'm not going to argue about that because it is undefined behavior anyway, but in short specifying explicitly d to 0 could be interpreted as printing an integer with a "." in the end
2019-11-21T14:41:00Z phoe: why test it if it's undefined
2019-11-21T14:41:22Z phoe: should I annotate it with :ansi-spec-problem?
2019-11-21T14:41:51Z jackdaniel: hm, or is it defined? I'm not sure at this point.
2019-11-21T14:42:04Z phoe: neither am I
2019-11-21T14:42:17Z phoe: my mind is full of shredded words from CLHS 22.3.3.1
2019-11-21T14:42:40Z phoe: well, following the last part - width is 0, so obviously we print with as many chars as we need
2019-11-21T14:42:41Z jackdaniel: depends how you read the first paragraph and if you allow specifying d=0 (explicitly)
2019-11-21T14:42:50Z phoe: d is 0, so we round to 0.0
2019-11-21T14:42:59Z phoe: but also we are supposed to print 0 decimal digits which is undoable
2019-11-21T14:43:13Z phoe: so we need to print the first digit, then the period, then the edge-case 0
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2019-11-21T14:43:31Z phoe: so I'd argue that 0.0 is consistent with FORMAT.F.45 that we've just battled over
2019-11-21T14:44:13Z jackdaniel: or we take that d specified to 0 by the programmer (not by a formatter) is a deliberate action and under the least surprising action principle it is 0.
2019-11-21T14:45:01Z phoe: let us suppose (format nil "~3f ~2f ~1f ~0f" 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0)
2019-11-21T14:45:06Z jackdaniel: (of course "." is not correct, so this test should test at least if the result is a number)
2019-11-21T14:45:21Z phoe: ~3f is obviously 0.0 and ~2f is obviously .0
2019-11-21T14:45:40Z phoe: uh wait a second
2019-11-21T14:45:43Z jackdaniel: 0.0 .0 .0 0.
2019-11-21T14:46:00Z jackdaniel: no, sorry, 0.0 .0 .0 .0
2019-11-21T14:46:06Z jackdaniel: in this case, d is not specified
2019-11-21T14:46:11Z phoe: yes, one sec
2019-11-21T14:46:26Z phoe: (format nil "~3,0f ~2,0f ~1,0f ~0,0f" 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0)
2019-11-21T14:46:42Z jackdaniel: imo all that should be printed as 0.
2019-11-21T14:46:48Z phoe: ~3,0f is " 0.", ~2,0f is "0."
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2019-11-21T14:47:40Z jackdaniel: if we take that d=0 is bogus and we always print a float, then all should be .0. but it is never a single dot character (like in original cmu format implementation)
2019-11-21T14:48:16Z jackdaniel: if we take that d=0 is allowed as a deliberate action, then ditto, 0.
2019-11-21T14:48:16Z phoe: so basically ~1,0f and ~0,0f are variants of ~2,0f that utilize the "if W is too small then take as many chars as we'd like" clause
2019-11-21T14:48:28Z phoe: that is my current line of reasoning
2019-11-21T14:49:22Z jackdaniel: n.b format and loop are my least favourite dwim operators in cl
2019-11-21T14:52:20Z phoe: inorite
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2019-11-21T14:53:48Z phoe: Should we test that (format nil "~3,0f ~2,0f ~1,0f ~0,0f" 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0) should evaluate to " 0. 0. 0. 0." in ANSI-TEST? Or is that too undefined and should we drop a part of that test?
2019-11-21T14:54:31Z jdz: I'm not following this discussion, but I'm pretty sure a number with a dot at the end is used to read a decimal number regardless of the *read-base*.
2019-11-21T14:54:50Z phoe: jdz: that is correct
2019-11-21T14:55:08Z phoe: and the spec explicitly allows a case of printing floats with a period at the end, so they are NOT readable as floats
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2019-11-21T14:56:25Z jackdaniel: it is unclear whether it should print "0. 0. 0. 0." or ".0 .0 .0 .0"
2019-11-21T14:56:59Z jackdaniel: that said it would be enough to check for "~0,0f" if it is either 0. or .0, other cases are not very interesting
2019-11-21T14:57:58Z phoe: jackdaniel: this hints for either dropping that test case or annotating it with :ANSI-SPEC-PROBLEM.
2019-11-21T14:58:32Z jackdaniel: or modifying it to check for (or "0." ".0") to catch a cmu format bug where "." is printed (and other similar bugs)
2019-11-21T14:58:55Z jackdaniel: i.e "0.0" would also be incorrect in this case
2019-11-21T14:59:32Z phoe: so it is either .0 or 0.
2019-11-21T14:59:38Z phoe: sigh
2019-11-21T14:59:59Z phoe: what if we change 0.0 to 0.01 - does the result change anyhow?
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2019-11-21T15:06:54Z phoe: no, definitely not today
2019-11-21T15:07:04Z phoe: maybe tomorrow
2019-11-21T15:07:18Z phoe: my mind has had enough
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2019-11-21T15:12:05Z phoe: but
2019-11-21T15:12:20Z phoe: (format nil "~2f ~1f ~0f" 0.01 0.01 0.01) should be ".0 .0 .0" for sure, should it not
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2019-11-21T15:17:25Z jackdaniel: yes, that's not controversial
2019-11-21T15:17:56Z jackdaniel: also, I've said that it is either "0." or ".0" - third interpretation is that format signals a condition that d must be (integer 1)
2019-11-21T15:19:29Z phoe: jackdaniel: so either 0. or .0 or an error is signaled
2019-11-21T15:19:42Z phoe: this behaviour is effectively undefined then
2019-11-21T15:19:49Z phoe: I propose to drop this test case
2019-11-21T15:19:57Z jackdaniel: no, because we have some clearly invalid behaviors
2019-11-21T15:20:03Z jackdaniel: most notably "0.0" and "."
2019-11-21T15:20:49Z phoe: so should we just check that the result is not a member of ("0.0" ".")?
2019-11-21T15:21:00Z phoe: or that an error is signaled?
2019-11-21T15:21:46Z jackdaniel: (or (signals error #1#) (string= #1# ".0") (string= #1# "0."))) is more precise
2019-11-21T15:22:22Z jackdaniel: this test could be annotated of course
2019-11-21T15:22:47Z phoe: OK
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2019-11-21T15:45:09Z phoe: jackdaniel: equivalent partitions? what do you mean?
2019-11-21T15:45:47Z phoe: oh, *different*
2019-11-21T15:46:11Z phoe: these are the three edge cases that we are testing for
2019-11-21T15:46:46Z jackdaniel: equivalence partitioning is finding sets of data which are the same under some criteria
2019-11-21T15:46:48Z phoe: ~2f is defined and an edge case, ~1f is a case where W is too small to fit the number, ~0f is a case where W is zero
2019-11-21T15:46:51Z phoe: yes, I understand now
2019-11-21T15:47:05Z phoe: in theory, ~1f and ~0f belong to the same partition
2019-11-21T15:47:07Z jackdaniel: and I believe that all three cases fall in the same partition, so testing all three doesn't seem necessary
2019-11-21T15:47:38Z phoe: (format nil "~2f ~1f ~0f" 0.01 0.01 0.01) ;=> ".0 .01 .01" on SBCL
2019-11-21T15:47:47Z jackdaniel: that's why I've asked for an explanation /in the review thread/
2019-11-21T15:47:50Z phoe: so definitely not the same partition if there are bugs to be found there
2019-11-21T15:47:57Z phoe: oh - you want me to comment *there*
2019-11-21T15:48:00Z phoe: OK, I'll do that
2019-11-21T15:48:31Z jackdaniel: I think that channel participants are tormented enough for today (me included)
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2019-11-21T15:48:51Z phoe: ;__;
2019-11-21T15:48:52Z phoe: sorry
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2019-11-21T16:22:43Z phoe: if everything is correct, then after merging up CCL should fail no more FORMAT.F.* ansi-tests
2019-11-21T16:23:21Z phoe: and I will be able to tackle the hellhole that is FORMAT.E.*
2019-11-21T16:24:00Z phoe: by then I'll be long banned from #lisp for being obnoxious with float-related spec questions though, so that's nothing to worry about~
2019-11-21T16:28:16Z flip214: phoe: we'll find a tent for you in Vienna
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2019-11-21T16:48:19Z luis: Is there some way to retrieve the (:method-combination ...) clause of a generic function? mop:generic-function-method-combination seems to return an opaque object, doesn't it?
2019-11-21T16:49:54Z beach: It returns a method-combination metaobject, yes.
2019-11-21T16:50:28Z luis: beach: its slots/readers are unspecified aren't they?
2019-11-21T16:51:01Z beach: That might be true.  The AMOP does not say much about method combinations.
2019-11-21T16:51:17Z flip214: wasn't that part of a talk at ELS? perhaps last year?
2019-11-21T16:51:28Z flip214: that these parts are not yet accessible?
2019-11-21T16:52:07Z beach: The only paper I remember on that subject was by Didier Verna.
2019-11-21T16:52:50Z beach: metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-combinations.html
2019-11-21T16:53:44Z phoe: is there any MOP extension or CDR that defines the method combination metaobjects?
2019-11-21T16:53:56Z phoe: or rather, how can they be accessed?
2019-11-21T16:54:25Z beach: I am unaware of anything like that.
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2019-11-21T17:00:43Z phoe: sounds like a good place for a portalib
2019-11-21T17:01:34Z beach: Indeed.
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2019-11-21T17:02:19Z luis: It's probably outside closer-to-mop's scope isn't it?
2019-11-21T17:02:25Z phoe: yes
2019-11-21T17:02:36Z phoe: MOP doesn't touch method combinations, so C2MOP won't touch it either
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2019-11-21T17:14:11Z Bike: they'd need something to be portable over. sbcl method combination objects are quite different from clasp's and i imagine other implementations have their own things going on too.
2019-11-21T17:15:15Z beach: Still, they probably all have a the name and arguments available.
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2019-11-21T17:17:25Z Bike: maybe. but what would you want to do with method combinations anyway? pretty much the only thing that needs em is compute-effective-method, if i remember correctly
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2019-11-21T17:20:32Z phoe: method-combination-name, method-combination-arglist
2019-11-21T17:20:48Z phoe: the latter needs to return two values - NIL NIL in case of short method combinations and * T in case of long method combinations
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2019-11-21T17:23:51Z phoe: sounds like a relatively simple portalib to write
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2019-11-21T18:00:16Z refpga: Hi, anybody has experience in setting up a quicklisp dist? I'm trying to load quicklisp-controller package and it complains that "system project-info not found". I can't find this asdf system anywhere.
2019-11-21T18:01:13Z Xach: refpga: https://github.com/quicklisp/project-info
2019-11-21T18:01:45Z Xach: refpga: quicklisp-controller might be heavyweight for getting started and pretty annoying. there are some other dist-creation libraries available
2019-11-21T18:02:08Z refpga: Oh
2019-11-21T18:02:09Z Xach: https://github.com/orivej/quickdist for example - I think there is something else
2019-11-21T18:02:16Z refpga: Thank you
2019-11-21T18:02:28Z Xach: refpga: anything missing when loading quicklisp-controller is likely available at github/quicklisp
2019-11-21T18:02:49Z refpga: Thanks
2019-11-21T18:03:18Z Xach: refpga: what will be in your dist?
2019-11-21T18:03:40Z refpga: Personal projects. But really I'm just trying it for now.
2019-11-21T18:04:17Z Xach: Sorry for the lack of docs on the topicd
2019-11-21T18:04:50Z refpga: Does a dist usually host all the dependencies of it's projects as well?
2019-11-21T18:04:59Z Xach: refpga: usually, yes
2019-11-21T18:05:06Z Xach: refpga: though that's not a requirement.
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2019-11-21T18:09:15Z phoe: Xach: what happens if two dists provide the same system? How is the conflict resolved?
2019-11-21T18:09:47Z Xach: phoe: there is a numeric priority system. higher number indicates more preferred. default preference value is the universal-time of installation of a dist. can be adjusted at dist, release, or system level.
2019-11-21T18:09:56Z phoe: Xach: got it. Thanks.
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2019-11-21T18:58:25Z phoe: luis: are there any other needs for method combinations that you'd need? Name and arglist are the only two that come to mind.
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2019-11-21T19:00:13Z phoe: Also, is there any need for #'METHOD-COMBINATION-{NAME,ARGLIST,...?} to be generic?
2019-11-21T19:04:28Z Bike: technically you should be able to make your own class or at least subclass method-combination, and make it work by defining a method on compute-effective-method
2019-11-21T19:04:33Z Bike: that would be fucking weird to do, though
2019-11-21T19:05:15Z Bike: i think a lot of the reason method combinations are underspecified is that define-method-combination is... overspecified? i mean not really, but I genuinely cannot figure out a reason to mess with the mop protocol rather than use define-method-combination
2019-11-21T19:05:19Z Bike: which lets you use arbitrary code anyway
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2019-11-21T19:10:43Z phoe: Bike: my reasoning is that if we are able to define method combinations then we should be able to introspect them as well
2019-11-21T19:11:00Z phoe: and the method combination name and arglist are sorta the most basic properties of one
2019-11-21T19:11:34Z Bike: but the only thing you can do with a method combination is compute an effective method.
2019-11-21T19:11:41Z Bike: which there's already a function for, obviously
2019-11-21T19:11:57Z Bike: so i don't see what knowing the arguments or whatever gets you really
2019-11-21T19:12:44Z phoe: "what is the name of that generic function's method combination?"
2019-11-21T19:12:49Z phoe: "what is the argument list of that generic function's method combination?"
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2019-11-21T19:13:09Z Bike: but what can you do with that information?
2019-11-21T19:13:15Z Bike: nothing. make another identical method combination, i guess?
2019-11-21T19:13:16Z phoe: display it to a curious user
2019-11-21T19:13:37Z Bike: define a print-object method on method combinations
2019-11-21T19:13:52Z phoe: and put what inside that method
2019-11-21T19:14:00Z Bike: i mean the implementation defines one.
2019-11-21T19:14:05Z Bike: and it looks like sbcl actually displays both already
2019-11-21T19:14:13Z phoe: yes
2019-11-21T19:16:54Z Bike: what i'm sayin is the actual mop protocols involve a lot of interactions between different functions and stuff. this is more like function-lambda-expression
2019-11-21T19:17:07Z phoe: yes
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2019-11-21T19:29:21Z phoe: luis: I'll back out of writing that library for now. e.g. SBCL doesn't make the method combination's lambda list accessible anywhere.
2019-11-21T19:29:45Z phoe: (even though I've tried to hack around it)
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2019-11-21T19:40:16Z phoe: Unless you're okay with just name and arguments.
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2019-11-21T19:41:40Z oni-on-ion: thats what she said
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2019-11-21T19:43:15Z phoe: OK
2019-11-21T19:43:43Z failproofshark: How would I go about referencing files local to a package? I currently have a project that references a few files local to a package and when I try using it as a depenency it complains that it can't find the files because it's looking for said files in the package that's trying to use it instead of where it actually exists in the package it's trying to depend on
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2019-11-21T19:46:16Z failproofshark: i realize this might not be a common lisp question and perhaps something more specific to asdf. just not sure about it's (perhaps) specific relevancy
2019-11-21T19:46:53Z Xach: failproofshark: one option is asdf:system-relative-pathname.
2019-11-21T19:47:03Z phoe: failproofshark: can't do it relative to a package, but you can do it relative to an ASDF system
2019-11-21T19:47:13Z phoe: Xach mentioned the proper function
2019-11-21T19:47:15Z Xach: failproofshark: i like to use *compile-file-truename* and *load-truename* instead sometimes. i don't like asdf functions embedded in my code usually.
2019-11-21T19:47:24Z failproofshark: ah ok. i think that's what I might be looking for. it rings a bell. thanks
2019-11-21T19:47:30Z failproofshark: understood, ill also look into those
2019-11-21T19:47:36Z failproofshark: thanks again ( ^ o ^) /
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2019-11-21T19:51:24Z refusenick: Looks like SBCL and CCL can be made to emit WASM now: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2019/11/multi-value-all-the-wasm/
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2019-11-21T19:55:02Z oni-on-ion: ohh!
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2019-11-21T20:03:52Z jackdaniel wonders, what makes sbcl and ccl so special that they can
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2019-11-21T20:14:33Z p_l: jackdaniel: it was more an issue with wasm that made it hard
2019-11-21T20:15:19Z p_l: it could have been worked around, but it's annoying, bug-prone, and significant perf hit
2019-11-21T20:17:55Z refusenick: p_l: Wasn't the issue wasm's lacking support for multiple return values?
2019-11-21T20:18:33Z p_l: refusenick: yes - and it could have been worked around, pretty sure ECL gets around C's single return too.
2019-11-21T20:19:11Z refusenick: Take a look at the link. They added support! Hopefully it goes further than Go's idea of multiple returns.
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2019-11-21T20:19:39Z p_l: yes, it's an extension. We will see how far it goes
2019-11-21T20:19:44Z jackdaniel: well, I was poking at this exclusive right for sbcl and ccl to work on wasm
2019-11-21T20:19:58Z jackdaniel: and to utilise this m-v-p capability
2019-11-21T20:20:16Z p_l: jackdaniel: more like both were not-really-reimplementable sanely with core WASM, unlike some of the other implementations :)
2019-11-21T20:20:24Z refusenick: jackdaniel: I've heard that Go has multiple return values (albeit more limited than CL's). Don't quote me on that -  I'm not a Gopher.
2019-11-21T20:20:27Z jackdaniel: I'm well aware that wasm devs were reluctant to allow multiple returned values (and that scl implementer were advocating cl support)
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2019-11-21T20:21:19Z p_l: refusenick: Go does have multiple return values. Not sure if it really differs from multiple values in CL, though
2019-11-21T20:22:11Z jackdaniel: refusenick: the gist of my remark was that cmucl, ecl and any lisp which will potentially target wasm can take advantage of that too
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2019-11-21T20:22:49Z refusenick: jackdaniel: Didn't SBCL subsume CMUCL?
2019-11-21T20:23:07Z p_l: refusenick: CMUCL is still alive
2019-11-21T20:23:19Z p_l: anyway, I was joking more on the fact that CLISP and ECL didn't need that
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2019-11-21T20:23:55Z refusenick: I remember someone suggesting reviving CLISP specifically for use with wasm and adding a JIT.
2019-11-21T20:24:05Z jackdaniel: refusenick: I think I'm misunderstood, but lets assume it is a lacking in my comunication skills
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2019-11-21T20:24:28Z p_l: CLISP is still alive, though dimnished, it never got as bad as GCL
2019-11-21T20:24:40Z jackdaniel: n.b clisp is alive, so there is no need to revive it. admittedly it didn't have release for quite a time, but commits flow
2019-11-21T20:24:52Z p_l: could do with proper release, tbqh
2019-11-21T20:25:19Z p_l: but I'm actually unsure if it's got anyone to make the call?
2019-11-21T20:26:16Z jackdaniel: old maintainers are still available for advice on the mailing lisp, new developers are polishing the thing
2019-11-21T20:26:23Z jackdaniel: it doesn't mean it won't take another 5y
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2019-11-21T20:28:46Z p_l: jackdaniel: I think the issue with lack of proper releases, even if very minor ones, is that it's harder to get it to hands of wider group of people
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2019-11-21T20:28:46Z jackdaniel: sure, but making proper releases requires time. I'm amazed how sbcl releases the thing every month or two - ecl will be soon™ released after, what, 3y of development?
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2019-11-21T20:29:25Z jackdaniel: testing on every platform takes a lot of time, not to mention other issues with releasing software (i.e regressions whatsoever)
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2019-11-21T20:32:54Z jackdaniel: luckily ecl has now two maintainers and a few time-to-time contributors
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2019-11-21T22:42:42Z phoe_: luis: I've only tested this on SBCL/CCL/ECL, https://github.com/phoe/trivial-method-combinations
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2019-11-21T23:41:12Z luis: phoe_: cool, I've sent you a pull request with an Allegro CL implementation.
2019-11-21T23:43:17Z luis: phoe_: are you handling the standard method combinations in method-combination-arglist? (Also, how about calling that method-combination-arguments or method-combination-options, maybe?)
2019-11-21T23:43:34Z phoe: luis: no, just long-method-combination.
2019-11-21T23:43:44Z phoe: also options and arglist-lambda-list are two different things.
2019-11-21T23:43:50Z luis: phoe_: at least in ACL, they're not subclasses of long-method-combination
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2019-11-21T23:44:20Z luis: phoe_: oh, then method-combination-arglist doesn't do what I though it did
2019-11-21T23:44:45Z luis: options seems more useful then
2019-11-21T23:44:49Z phoe: luis: long-method-combination should be a subclass of standard-method-combination I think
2019-11-21T23:45:15Z luis: That doesn't sound rigt.
2019-11-21T23:45:23Z phoe: wait a second
2019-11-21T23:45:25Z phoe: gah
2019-11-21T23:45:34Z phoe: for a second I thought that standard-method-combination was a MOP term
2019-11-21T23:45:58Z luis: phoe: maybe it is
2019-11-21T23:46:07Z phoe: no, it isn't
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2019-11-21T23:46:12Z phoe: it is an ANSI CL term
2019-11-21T23:46:38Z phoe: you are correct, the sh-m-c, l-m-c, and st-m-c seem to be distinct
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2019-11-21T23:47:08Z phoe: luis: please file issues on that one to include standard-method-combinations in the algorithms and to add #'method-combination-options
2019-11-21T23:47:14Z phoe: I'll fix that up tomorrow
2019-11-21T23:47:27Z luis: phoe: no, /you're/ right. :D (typep #<EXCL::LONG-METHOD-COMBINATION @ #x2063d5942> 'excl::standard-method-combination) => t
2019-11-21T23:47:39Z phoe: wtf
2019-11-21T23:47:43Z phoe: it is too late for me to be doing lisp
2019-11-21T23:47:52Z phoe: good night, I'll read up the log and the issues tomorrow
2019-11-21T23:47:56Z luis: Likewise. Let's try again tomorrow.
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2019-11-22T00:42:51Z |3b|: cl-opengl users please test the branch at https://github.com/3b/cl-opengl/tree/enum-groups2 and see if it breaks any of your code
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2019-11-22T01:34:35Z ScaredySquirrel: hi guys, how do I start out learning programming with common lisp?
2019-11-22T01:35:00Z aeth: Usually with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Strike
2019-11-22T01:35:03Z aeth: ugh wrong link
2019-11-22T01:35:05Z aeth: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2019-11-22T01:35:16Z aeth: Firefox copy and paste has, well, it takes a second before it registers for some reason
2019-11-22T01:35:38Z aeth: (the other link was to prove in another channel that Valve can in fact release more than 3 games in a series)
2019-11-22T01:37:22Z aeth: ScaredySquirrel: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ is generally the recommended introduction to CL book but there are many books. https://cliki.net/Lisp%20books
2019-11-22T01:37:36Z aeth: ScaredySquirrel: The other one, if you have no programming experience, is https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ iirc
2019-11-22T01:38:12Z aeth: There are other introduction books but they're not available for free online and aren't as universally well-received
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2019-11-22T01:48:25Z pjb: ScaredySquirrel: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
2019-11-22T01:48:30Z pjb: ScaredySquirrel: http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial
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2019-11-22T04:02:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-22T04:19:40Z ebrasca: Morning!
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2019-11-22T07:40:07Z phoe: heyyy
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2019-11-22T07:49:15Z Josh_2: mornin phoe
2019-11-22T07:50:57Z phoe: morning
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2019-11-22T10:25:00Z lukego: Is anybody else using ql2nix (https://github.com/bradleyjensen/ql2nix) to snapshot quicklisp distributions with nix or is it just me? I'm noticing that some packages aren't happy living on read-only filesystems and trying to figure out a fix/workaround.
2019-11-22T10:25:48Z Shinmera: That would be some of my packages.
2019-11-22T10:26:39Z lukego: seems like it's mostly packages that want to do some code generation and store the results on disk. I'm hoping it will be enough to ASDF:LOAD-OP them on a read/write filesystem and then transport the files onto read-only later. Or will they want to always be able to read/write their source dirs?
2019-11-22T10:27:07Z lukego: (and if always read-write next question is whether it needs to be persistent)
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2019-11-22T10:27:36Z Shinmera: For the packages I control they either do their caching on first load, or whenever the user requests it.
2019-11-22T10:29:44Z Shinmera: From the top of my head, those would be qt-libs, uax-9, uax-14. There might be more, I don't quite remember.
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2019-11-22T10:33:00Z phoe: lukego: I remember Xach mentioning this issue some time ago for packages that require write access to their own directory. Most notably it was CL-UNICODE I think.
2019-11-22T10:33:38Z Shinmera: Question: there is the DECLARATION declaration, which allows you to declare custom declarations symbols. My question is this: how would I now process these declarations if they appear in a top-level context?
2019-11-22T10:33:45Z phoe: lukego: in general, you cannot do that, since Lisp code can write stuff into asdf:system-relative-pathname at any time.
2019-11-22T10:34:15Z Shinmera: phoe: don't even need asdf, just compile-file-pathname/load-pathname.
2019-11-22T10:34:21Z phoe: Shinmera: was about to write that one.
2019-11-22T10:34:48Z phoe: lukego: in practice, most systems *should* be happy with read-only access after they are compiled and built. At this point, if RW access is required, I'd try to file a bug so the system uses some temporary directories or configuration paths instead.
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2019-11-22T10:35:09Z phoe: Shinmera: process? As in, do you want to be able to (DECLAIM (FROBNICATE FOO BAR BAZ))?
2019-11-22T10:35:24Z Shinmera: yes
2019-11-22T10:35:31Z Shinmera: I want to run code when that is done.
2019-11-22T10:35:35Z phoe: And you would like this declaration to have concrete side effect---
2019-11-22T10:35:55Z phoe: Impossible in pure ANSI CL. You'd need some mechanism to hook into the declaration system of each implementation.
2019-11-22T10:35:57Z Shinmera: I can do it if I have a macro that controls a body wherein this declaration may occur
2019-11-22T10:36:04Z Shinmera: But not at top-level, obviously.
2019-11-22T10:36:13Z Shinmera: I was afraid of that
2019-11-22T10:36:20Z phoe: Yes, but you can't do it at toplevel. The only thing standard ANSI CL can do is ignore these declarations.
2019-11-22T10:36:28Z Shinmera: just weird that DECLARATION exists at all given it's pretty useless if you can't react to it.
2019-11-22T10:37:08Z phoe: Shinmera: every Lisp implementation is allowed ignore *ALL* declarations aside from notinline, optimize safety and two more I think.
2019-11-22T10:37:45Z phoe: So, in pure theory, e.g. DECLARE CONNECTED from qtools should be freely ignorable in standard CL.
2019-11-22T10:37:51Z phoe: And it isn't - it has concrete side effects.
2019-11-22T10:38:02Z Shinmera: it's ignored because it never reaches the compiler.
2019-11-22T10:38:29Z Shinmera: oh hey, cltl2 has define-declaration which seems to be what I want.
2019-11-22T10:39:43Z phoe: wait, I am going in circles
2019-11-22T10:39:54Z phoe: disregard what I said, I'm stupid
2019-11-22T10:40:10Z jackdaniel: try going in non xy-aligned ellipses
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2019-11-22T10:42:00Z phoe shifts towards the Z axis
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2019-11-22T10:48:12Z lukego: phoe, Shinmera: Seems like in this case the package gets a (QL:QUICKLOAD ...) before being transported onto read-only. Seems like that should trigger an ASDF:LOAD-OP right? I'm surprised there is more generated stuff being done after this.
2019-11-22T10:49:06Z Shinmera: It should.
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2019-11-22T10:53:10Z phoe: lukego: ASDF:LOAD-OP should compile everything, yes.
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2019-11-22T10:53:55Z jackdaniel: in principle compile-op compiles everything, load-op may use pre-existing artifacts
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2019-11-22T10:57:23Z phoe: OK, to be correct - LOAD-OP may invoke COMPILE-OP if something is not compiled, but after LOAD-OP the system is sure to have been compiled and loaded
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2019-11-22T11:00:41Z lukego: OK maybe I need to start digging in on a package-by-package basis and see what it is trying to do when it errors on r/o fs
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2019-11-22T11:08:11Z phoe: lukego: that's the way to go, sadly. There are no general rules that can be applied here to help you.
2019-11-22T11:08:50Z lukego: I suppose that my "nuke them from orbit" option would be to setup some kind of read-write overlay/temp file system but let's see if it comes to that.
2019-11-22T11:09:28Z lukego: I'm looking at CL-UNICODE .asd now and seeing :perform (load-op (o c) (symbol-call :cl-unicode '#:create-source-files)) and wondering if it generates *every* time loaded?
2019-11-22T11:09:46Z phoe: lukego: nope. It generates only if it hasn't been compiled.
2019-11-22T11:10:01Z phoe: If the compiled files exist, then LOAD-OP only loads the compiled binaries.
2019-11-22T11:10:20Z phoe: But, let me look at that function to verify...
2019-11-22T11:10:26Z lukego: those smarts are in ASDF or CL-UNICODE? I don't see them in the latter at least
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2019-11-22T11:11:40Z phoe: welp
2019-11-22T11:11:52Z phoe: it seems like CL-UNICODE does *not* cache anything and always loads from scratch
2019-11-22T11:12:11Z phoe: or at least that is what https://github.com/edicl/cl-unicode/blob/911767add6656990e523cf3840f9f59a36a05385/build/dump.lisp#L241 tells me
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2019-11-22T11:12:34Z lukego: maybe it should generate into a tmp folder in that case
2019-11-22T11:12:44Z phoe: or move this into COMPILE-OP instead
2019-11-22T11:12:57Z jackdaniel: phoe: if you specialize load-op to do something more, then it will be done at each load
2019-11-22T11:13:00Z phoe: there is no need to generate this every time the system is loaded, only every time it is compiled
2019-11-22T11:13:16Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes, I see now
2019-11-22T11:13:36Z jackdaniel: banzai
2019-11-22T11:14:08Z phoe: my question, though, is - can't CL-UNICODE cache the results of its compilation, probably by only generating and dumping the data in COMPILE-OP instead of LOAD-OP?
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2019-11-22T11:15:23Z lukego: lemme see how to coax ql2nix to override the standard quicklisp version of cl-unicode with a local one that moves this from LOAD-OP to COMPILE-OP..
2019-11-22T11:16:16Z phoe: lukego: no idea if a fix that trivial won't break its load-time mechanisms though
2019-11-22T11:16:19Z phoe: but worth a try
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2019-11-22T11:17:50Z jackdaniel: phoe: that dependency is present only when input files are not present
2019-11-22T11:18:19Z jackdaniel: see the method component-depends-on
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2019-11-22T11:19:45Z edgar-rft: https://edicl.github.io/cl-unicode/ says "CL-UNICODE builds parts of its source code automatically the first time it is compiled. This is done by parsing several Unicode data files which are included with the distribution and might take some time. This happens only once." but don't ask me if and how it works.
2019-11-22T11:20:08Z jackdaniel: as I said, method component-depneds-on checks if files are present
2019-11-22T11:20:16Z jackdaniel: if not, then it injects a dependency on cl-unicode/build
2019-11-22T11:21:07Z jackdaniel: so it is generated only on the first load (unless the .lisp source files get wiped out for some reason before next load)
2019-11-22T11:21:36Z phoe: jackdaniel: ugh, I see
2019-11-22T11:21:37Z jackdaniel: on the first operation which depends on prepare-op to be specific
2019-11-22T11:21:44Z phoe: ASDF is complex stuff
2019-11-22T11:22:14Z phoe: but then it means that cl-unicode only dumps the new .lisp files on the first call to load-op
2019-11-22T11:22:31Z jackdaniel: or compile-op or whichever op which depends on prepare-op
2019-11-22T11:22:36Z phoe: does it mean that the dependency is *not* injected on calls to compile-op?
2019-11-22T11:22:44Z jackdaniel: ditto
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2019-11-22T11:26:44Z phoe: ASDF manual: "compile-op depends on prepare-op which itself depends on a load-op of all of a component’s dependencies"
2019-11-22T11:26:57Z phoe: so compile depends on prepare depend on load - I got the order all wrong, welp
2019-11-22T11:27:28Z phoe: except prepare depends on load of the dependencies
2019-11-22T11:27:43Z phoe: so the dumping code is in its proper place
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2019-11-22T11:37:11Z phoe: so I don't get what is the problem with ql2nix in that case - by the time cl-unicode is compiled, all cl-unicode/build FASLs are in their proper places
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2019-11-22T11:39:10Z jackdaniel: afaict lukego was only asking if it generates them every time, not stated that it does
2019-11-22T11:40:21Z phoe: OK - in that case there should be no problem whatsoever
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2019-11-22T11:44:22Z lukego: I'm a little confused but I should note that I don't see the files present on the read-only file system. So the problem is consistent with jackdaniel being correct about the files not being regenerated unnecessarily - root problem might be that they failed to be created earlier for some reason and that's why they're being created now.
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2019-11-22T11:45:43Z lukego: thanks for pointing this out jackdaniel. I'm rusty at reading system definition files. I saw :cl-unicode/build system and just assumed that was one of the dependencies, but now as you say I see that it's only conditionally a dependency.
2019-11-22T11:46:36Z jackdaniel: sure
2019-11-22T11:46:50Z Shinmera: for define-declaration, is there a way to determine whether the declaration occurs as a top-level declaration or within a function body?
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2019-11-22T11:49:01Z Shinmera: Or, better yet, how would I retrieve the current function the declaration is expanded in?
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2019-11-22T11:49:41Z phoe: if that is possible, then you'd need to query the environment object
2019-11-22T11:49:49Z Shinmera: yes, but my question is how
2019-11-22T11:52:22Z phoe: the current function - what exactly do you mean?
2019-11-22T11:52:29Z phoe: I could do (lambda () (declare (frob)) ...)
2019-11-22T11:52:42Z phoe: what is that you want to be able to access?
2019-11-22T11:54:36Z Shinmera: I was hoping that for top-level functions I could gain access to the function name.
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2019-11-22T12:01:07Z phoe: Shinmera: I don't think this is possible with declarations alone.
2019-11-22T12:01:17Z phoe: Especially because SETF FDEFINITION exists.
2019-11-22T12:01:55Z Shinmera: just because that exists doesn't mean the implementation isn't going to have named function objects, or the name available during compilation of a defun
2019-11-22T12:02:43Z Shinmera: you can always clobber the definition, but I don't care about that case.
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2019-11-22T12:05:39Z phoe: Oh wait a second. Named function objects do exist.
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2019-11-22T12:07:01Z phoe: But I have no idea how to retrieve the function name from inside SB-IMPL::NAMED-LAMBDA.
2019-11-22T12:07:47Z Shinmera: you probably can't
2019-11-22T12:08:01Z Shinmera: anyway, it just would have made what I'm trying slightly nicer. No big deal.
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2019-11-22T12:33:02Z lukego: Curently I suspect the issue is not with cl-unicode/quicklisp/asdf but rather that it's local to the nix packaging and the shell script that tries to copy the results of asdf builds: https://github.com/bradleyjensen/ql2nix/blob/master/nixlispBundle.nix#L53-L77
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2019-11-22T12:38:12Z lukego: Oh hm... my ignorance of both quicklisp and ql2nix is staring me in the face here... maybe it only does the ASDF:LOAD-OP for discovery purposes and then uses a quicklisp "bundle" API to make the actual package, which might skip the load step
2019-11-22T12:40:15Z lukego: Yes that's my working hypothesis now: that this tool is using ASDF:LOAD-OP to discover dependencies, then creating a "bundle" with ql:bundle-systems, then putting that bundle onto a read-only file system. But the generated artifacts for e.g. CL-UNICODE are being lost when creating the bundle.
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2019-11-22T12:42:43Z lukego: So maybe I just need to add another load-op after the bundle is created but before it is migrated onto read-only fs
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2019-11-22T12:55:41Z lukego: So the question now is, given a quicklisp bundle directory, how do I force load all the systems in that bundle
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2019-11-22T13:26:14Z shka__: good day!
2019-11-22T13:27:06Z shka__: i have an unusual question: i would want to access and manipulate numpy arrays from CL
2019-11-22T13:27:16Z shka__: any idea how to do that?
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2019-11-22T13:32:43Z _death: py4cl?
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2019-11-22T13:33:33Z shka__: hmm, nope
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2019-11-22T13:36:42Z Shinmera: shka__: figure out the memory layout, use cffi.
2019-11-22T13:37:04Z shka__: Shinmera: yeah, I am thinking about it right now
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2019-11-22T13:54:43Z lottaquestions: Hi all, I inserted a breakpoint in a function using (break), and it worked as expected. However, once I was done with the breakpoint, I deleted it from the code and recompiled the whole buffer, C-c C-k, and the breakpoint kept being hit. I tried other options like M-x slime-eval-region, and even C-c C-c to compile the toplevel form, but the
2019-11-22T13:54:43Z lottaquestions: breakpoint is still stubbornly there. Any ideas of how I can delete it?
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2019-11-22T13:56:13Z phoe: lottaquestions: was it a function and not a macro?
2019-11-22T13:56:48Z lottaquestions: it was a function
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2019-11-22T13:57:31Z lukego: maybe the function object was captured with #'foo? in that case seems tricky, have to work out where the reference would be stashed
2019-11-22T13:57:44Z lottaquestions: but that is being called through cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all
2019-11-22T13:58:28Z lottaquestions: yes the function object is captured using '#foo
2019-11-22T13:58:29Z lukego: maybe recompile the cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all usage in case that has expanded into code that captured the old definition?
2019-11-22T13:58:43Z lukego: you need to rerun th at code that does #'foo and make it tak the new function object
2019-11-22T13:59:13Z lukego: (and consider changing it to just 'foo if you want to indirect through the symbol to always use the current function definition in the future)
2019-11-22T13:59:36Z lottaquestions: aahhh as in restart the frame that has cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all...
2019-11-22T14:00:30Z lukego: if you're in the debugger maybe you can patch the function object in the stack frame but that's beyond my ken..
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2019-11-22T14:01:15Z lottaquestions: well, that's what I would want to be able to do when I grow up :-)
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2019-11-22T14:02:13Z lottaquestions: meantime, I will restart the frame, and also convert from #'foo to 'foo
2019-11-22T14:02:46Z lukego: another fun solution would be to hit the BREAK, get a reference to the old function object in the inspector, and then rewrite the heap to replace all pointers to the old function object with the new one. but I don't know how to do that either :) likely sbcl has some internal API for it..
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2019-11-22T14:07:09Z lottaquestions: yeah, that would be fun. I know how to do somewhat similar things in gdb and C, and woudn't mind getting to the same skill level with sbcl
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2019-11-22T14:32:52Z trittweiler: Clearly slime needs an interactive hex-editor of the dissasembly of function objects :)
2019-11-22T14:33:41Z trittweiler: lukego: Are you aware of sbcl's 20th birthday celebration in vienna in roughly 2 weeks, and if so, are you going to join?
2019-11-22T14:34:38Z shka__: wow, it is?
2019-11-22T14:34:41Z shka__: awesome!
2019-11-22T14:34:47Z shka__: happy birthday :-)
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2019-11-22T14:35:58Z lukego: g'day trittweiler :) I'd love to make that but don't think I will.
2019-11-22T14:37:53Z lukego: I'd love to do it as a day-trip but I don't think that's realistic
2019-11-22T14:40:40Z lukego: I'm totally tying myself in knots with this ql2nix problem now. I've made a new version that hopefully works, but it seems to be failing with the same error, and much earlier than makes sense, so I'm wondering if the new "working" one is trying to bootstrap from the old broken one for some reason
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2019-11-22T14:50:23Z lukego: oh, I see, I'm an idiot :). I have been working in *shell* instead of a real shell and now I remember that I started this Emacs session in a shell environment that had the broken lisp setup. So I've been fighting that old version while thinking I'm fighting the new one. (isn't nix-shell great?)
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2019-11-22T15:04:50Z Xach: lukego: happy to help with any quicklisp problems
2019-11-22T15:07:36Z lukego: Xach: Thanks! Just now what I want to do is force each system in a Quicklisp bundle to be loaded. That's because some packages need to do extra init on the first load and I want that to happen now (before I copy them onto a read-only file system.) Is groveling system-index.txt for names to pass to REQUIRE a reasonable solution?
2019-11-22T15:09:27Z phoe: lukego: remember that some systems may fail to load if their foreign dependencies are not loaded.
2019-11-22T15:09:49Z phoe: or, rather
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2019-11-22T15:09:58Z phoe: if they try to load the foreign libs but they do not exist
2019-11-22T15:10:28Z lukego: I'm able to declare foreign libs as dependencies here so long as I can identify them. (McCLIM is complaining it can't find truetype fonts but I'm putting that to one side for now.)
2019-11-22T15:11:36Z lukego: somehow feels dirty to (intern (string-upcase (pathname-name (pathname line-from-system-index.txt))) :keyword) but this is not the time to be squeamish..
2019-11-22T15:11:56Z lukego: I mean to turn /foo/bar.asd into :BAR for REQUIRE
2019-11-22T15:12:37Z Xach: lukego: yes, that's reasonable.
2019-11-22T15:13:27Z Xach: why require?
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2019-11-22T15:13:37Z lukego: what's the alternative?
2019-11-22T15:13:38Z Xach: I'd expect asdf:load-system
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2019-11-22T15:13:45Z Xach: which would take a pathname-name just fine
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2019-11-22T15:13:58Z lukego: ah that sounds better
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2019-11-22T15:23:36Z lukego: oh hey it works )
2019-11-22T15:23:39Z lukego: \o/
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2019-11-22T15:25:16Z lukego: thanks all for the helpful nudges
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2019-11-22T15:28:12Z pjb: lukego: you don't need to call pathname, it's called automatically by pathname-name when given a namestring.
2019-11-22T15:28:49Z pfdietz: In twitter I am told that writing seven lines of CL is "on the verge" of reimplementing the language.   The things one learns.
2019-11-22T15:30:54Z lukego: it it too onomatopoeiac to write (loop for /some/system.asd = (read-line in nil) ...) ?
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2019-11-22T15:33:07Z lukego: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/GW1TUvlK/
2019-11-22T15:33:27Z lukego: I'm not proud.
2019-11-22T15:35:34Z White_Flame: I think it's kind of cute, if different.  I don't see any problem with it
2019-11-22T15:35:58Z White_Flame: as long as you don't need |s around your symbol, go for it
2019-11-22T15:36:14Z lukego: thanks :)
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2019-11-22T15:37:15Z phoe: pfdietz: where?
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2019-11-22T15:44:38Z Xach: ams got banned once or twice for such nonsense on #lisp
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2019-11-22T15:46:13Z phoe: I need more context
2019-11-22T15:48:33Z Xach: phoe: pfdietz's suggestion to use *macroexpand-hook* to work around a problem with code that can't be directly modified was met with "well then i may as well rewrite common lisp"
2019-11-22T15:48:48Z Xach: this is all in the public record on the Twitter
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2019-11-22T15:50:14Z phoe: I want to see the man who can rewrite Common Lisp in seven lines of code
2019-11-22T15:50:44Z Bike: well it's not like the syntax requires newlines anywhere...
2019-11-22T15:50:58Z Bike: they'd be pretty long lines, admittedly
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2019-11-22T15:51:20Z Xach: https://twitter.com/amszmidt/status/1197897778506215425
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2019-11-22T15:51:38Z Xach: you loved lisp500
2019-11-22T15:51:45Z Xach: now try lisp7
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2019-11-22T15:52:09Z Bike: well that's a new take on sbcl defconstant complaints
2019-11-22T15:52:32Z lukego: Success! https://github.com/bradleyjensen/ql2nix/pull/3
2019-11-22T15:52:55Z phoe: so now we have people complaining that SBCL does not implement the spec
2019-11-22T15:53:03Z phoe: and people complaining that SBCL implements the spec
2019-11-22T15:53:45Z Xach: some galaxy brain stuff
2019-11-22T15:57:25Z Xach: lukego: i don't know exactly how i feel about loop variables that look like pathnames but i am feeling something
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2019-11-22T15:58:49Z phoe: well, /home/phoe/Projects/Lisp/foo/foo.asd is a perfectly valid symbol name in Lisp
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2019-11-22T16:12:01Z Shinmera: So a brief test shows that a top-level invocation of a declaration defined with cltl2:define-declaration does not actually get invoked at all on SBCL. If I use the same declaration as part of a function definition it does get invoked. Am I missing something or is that expected behaviour?
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2019-11-22T16:14:47Z Bike: what do you mean top-level invocation? like a declamation/proclamation?
2019-11-22T16:14:57Z Shinmera: yes
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2019-11-22T16:15:47Z Shinmera: Specifically, https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRneE9RPT0=
2019-11-22T16:16:03Z Bike: cltl2 doesn't seem to mention this specifically, but it refers to it in the context of augment-environment, which wouldn't be used with a proclamation.
2019-11-22T16:16:37Z Shinmera: So there's just no way to add a declamation that does anything useful?
2019-11-22T16:17:45Z Bike: not based on my quick reading here, but if it did work for proclamations too that seems fine
2019-11-22T16:17:55Z Shinmera: sigh
2019-11-22T16:18:26Z Bike: i don't know if sbcl is prepared to do that, though. looking at the implementation, user declarations augment the lexenv, but that's not where proclamations go
2019-11-22T16:18:37Z Bike: i'm sure it's doable somehow though
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2019-11-22T16:18:51Z Bike: changing sbcl i mean.
2019-11-22T16:18:54Z Shinmera: If it ain't portable I ain't using it.
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2019-11-22T16:19:33Z Shinmera: And given that this seems acceptable behaviour I think I'm out of luck.
2019-11-22T16:20:46Z Shinmera: To give context: I'd like to register functions to be automatically invoked when a change happens elsewhere in my system. Being able to use a declaration for that would have been really nice.
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2019-11-22T16:21:23Z Shinmera: But given that I can't do proclamations, nor get the function name from a declaration being expanded, the only way to do it would be annoying for the user.
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2019-11-22T16:22:30Z Bike: well, i think you could change implementations to have it work for proclamations, if only because cltl2 is used infrequently enough that they won't mind modifications
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2019-11-22T16:24:28Z Shinmera: I don't think I'm patient enough to lobby for that to happen, nor to implement it myself.
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2019-11-22T16:56:52Z pfdietz: I like *macroexpand-hook*.    Using it to layer changes onto a code base, without changing that code, can be quite useful.   Rejection made me sad.  :(
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2019-11-22T19:17:10Z Xach: pfdietz: it's quite an escape hatch
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2019-11-22T19:28:31Z pjb: phoe: sed -R -i 's/\n/ /g' ~/src/sbcl-git
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2019-11-22T20:28:30Z LdBeth: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/Macros-talk.pdf
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2019-11-22T20:33:21Z Bike: some day i should find an explanation of what "compose" means in this kind of thing
2019-11-22T20:34:04Z LdBeth: Bike: it means literally like #'compose in CL
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2019-11-22T20:34:50Z LdBeth: the higher order function that take two functions and compose them together
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2019-11-22T20:35:16Z Bike: it really doesn't
2019-11-22T20:35:38Z Bike: what functions are involved when you're talking about C macro names
2019-11-22T20:35:47Z Bike: there might be some, but it's not obvious to me, that's all
2019-11-22T20:37:01Z LdBeth: Well this talk is specific for those who view macro as functions that rewrite terms
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2019-11-22T20:38:04Z LdBeth: Obviously C preprocessor cannot be extended by defining functions
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2019-11-22T20:43:00Z Bike: i'm talking about uh, slide 7-1. i don't understand what it would mean for assert and MAXLIMIT to compose. i mean if nothing else is assert is taking a form that has a MAXLIMIT form in it, it's not a direct composition, but what would a direct composition mean then if you have compound forms
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2019-11-22T20:47:17Z Bike: i don't know if i'm missing something obvious or what
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2019-11-22T20:48:46Z LdBeth: Until 7-1 it’s all about introduction to new comers. Jump ahead to 8 to see what is macro compose
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2019-11-22T21:01:17Z phoe: > macros written in a continuation-passing style (CPS)
2019-11-22T21:01:29Z phoe: now that is getting fun
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2019-11-22T21:10:07Z copec: On Lisp covers those things
2019-11-22T21:10:50Z copec: Some people aren't particularly fond of Graham's writing style: http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html
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2019-11-22T21:14:12Z phoe: ABCL 1.6.0 is out!
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2019-11-22T21:17:50Z copec: I've never actually found myself really needing continuations for anything, but they are awesome.
2019-11-22T21:18:42Z LdBeth: copec: nope, paul graham only talks CPS and macro individually. Combining CPS and macro has become interests only after 2000 in Daniel Friedman’s article
2019-11-22T21:19:41Z copec: I read it a decade ago, but iirc he builds up a macro system for continuations in CL, although I can't recall if it is actually CPS
2019-11-22T21:20:35Z copec: I'll reader your link LdBeth
2019-11-22T21:22:35Z LdBeth: copec: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Writing-Macros-in-Continuation-Passing-Style-Hilsdale-Friedman/752575dc24b2bb6e74ee6146df71860e10e3aee9
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2019-11-22T21:24:20Z LdBeth: Here’s the article. It makes a disclaimer that On Lisp implements call/cc with macro but not to be confused with the notation of cps style macro
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2019-11-22T21:41:38Z copec: This is interesting
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2019-11-22T22:10:09Z jmercouris: I see that the SBCL repository is roughly ~91% CL
2019-11-22T22:10:23Z jmercouris: I assume therefore that most of the functions and implementation is implemented in CL
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2019-11-22T22:11:06Z jmercouris: so my question is, what is the minimum amount of functions you need to write to bootstrap a CL implementation?
2019-11-22T22:11:21Z phoe: jmercouris: 0 is the absolute minimum
2019-11-22T22:11:25Z jmercouris: do multiple implementations share the same "CL" core?
2019-11-22T22:11:42Z phoe: you can generate the whole binary from Lisp, including what is currently generated from C as the "kernel"
2019-11-22T22:11:43Z jmercouris: phoe: are you talking about using CL to compile CL?
2019-11-22T22:11:54Z jmercouris: okay, fair enough, this is true
2019-11-22T22:12:06Z jmercouris: but let's say I was trying to port CL to run on a new language called Potato
2019-11-22T22:12:08Z phoe: which includes directly interfacing with the OS using Lisp, writing the required assembly using Lisp, actually assembling it using Lisp, doing GC using Lisp and so on
2019-11-22T22:12:14Z jmercouris: how many functions would I need to write in Potato to build CL on top of it?
2019-11-22T22:12:29Z phoe: what do you mean, to build CL?
2019-11-22T22:12:32Z jmercouris: yes
2019-11-22T22:12:37Z phoe: which implementation?
2019-11-22T22:12:42Z jmercouris: to make my equivalent Potato Common Lisp
2019-11-22T22:12:51Z phoe: a completely new one? you choose, you can do anything between 0% and 100%
2019-11-22T22:13:02Z jmercouris: A completely new implementatino
2019-11-22T22:13:08Z phoe: then it's your choice
2019-11-22T22:13:18Z jmercouris: how could I wrote 0 Potato functions?
2019-11-22T22:13:33Z phoe: it's simple, just write all of CL without using Potato whatsoever
2019-11-22T22:13:37Z jmercouris: I don't see how that's possible, ultimately something has to go through the Potato compiler
2019-11-22T22:13:43Z Xach: jmercouris: in the 80s, there was a plan to separate the spec into "blue pages" and "yellow pages", where "blue" was the core, and "yellow" was built on that core, where blue was much smaller and yellow was all the convenience stuff.
2019-11-22T22:13:47Z sjl_: The number for Shen is 46.  http://shenlanguage.org/OSmanual.htm  I'd imagine CL would probably need a bit more.
2019-11-22T22:13:56Z jmercouris: Xach: that's basically what I am getting at
2019-11-22T22:14:11Z jmercouris: like what is the "blue" core? do several implementations share this core?
2019-11-22T22:14:25Z jmercouris: sorry, I mean, do several implementations share a "yellow pages"?
2019-11-22T22:14:46Z phoe: some have very related LOOP or FORMAT or CLOS implementations, yes
2019-11-22T22:14:58Z Xach: jmercouris: beach has recently been working on things along those lines, in a researchy sense, and drmeister in a practical sense
2019-11-22T22:15:13Z phoe: but these are not 100% compatible with each other and all have been customized and maintained differently
2019-11-22T22:15:21Z Xach: (i might have the colors wrong)
2019-11-22T22:15:22Z sjl_: http://www.shenlanguage.org/shendoc.htm#The%20Primitive%20Functions%20of%20K%20Lambda is a better link for the Shen Kl core
2019-11-22T22:16:55Z jmercouris: what would be the smallest amount of functions necessary to produce a language?
2019-11-22T22:17:05Z jmercouris: how could one make a most portable language that can be bootstrapped really easily?
2019-11-22T22:17:29Z jmercouris: from what I understand, this is a topic of significant research, so I'm not expecting a hard answer here
2019-11-22T22:17:47Z jmercouris: Xach: you're talking about Clasp?
2019-11-22T22:18:00Z phoe: depends on the language that you want to produce
2019-11-22T22:18:01Z Xach: jmercouris: yes.
2019-11-22T22:18:19Z jmercouris: phoe: Let's say we wish to produce CL
2019-11-22T22:18:34Z drmeister: These are really, really hard questions for Common Lisp.
2019-11-22T22:18:35Z phoe: in case of CL, it's complicated - CL is a sizeable language even when it comes to its basics upon which the rest can be built
2019-11-22T22:18:36Z jmercouris: do you have any idea of the minimum number of functions? can we calculate it?
2019-11-22T22:18:42Z Xach: Anyone making a "new" lisp these days has a lot of public domain source code they can reuse that is relatively portable, but it's not neatly divided into core+library.
2019-11-22T22:19:12Z jmercouris: drmeister: how close is Clasp to distribution and usage as an implementation?
2019-11-22T22:19:24Z phoe: in theory you can bootstrap multiple operators off each other
2019-11-22T22:20:11Z phoe: you could for instance emulate PROGV and LET and LET* using only lambdas and such
2019-11-22T22:20:39Z phoe: CATCH/THROW and TAGBODY/GO are obvious control flow operators that are hard to construct otherwise
2019-11-22T22:20:41Z jmercouris: phoe: but can we calculate what the minimum is? is it discoverable?
2019-11-22T22:20:42Z drmeister: jmercouris: It's been ready for distribution as a Common Lisp implementation for several months.
2019-11-22T22:21:19Z phoe: jmercouris: obviously it is, yes - the list of all symbols of CL package is public and we can align them into a directed graph that shows what can be implemented using what.
2019-11-22T22:21:38Z jmercouris: I don't think it is obvious
2019-11-22T22:21:41Z phoe: for instance, all of CLOS, LOOP, FORMAT can be non-primitive and done in CL.
2019-11-22T22:21:50Z phoe: that's a sizeable chunk of the whole standard.
2019-11-22T22:22:12Z jmercouris: how could we align them into a directed graph without manually trying to implement all of CL in all of CL?
2019-11-22T22:22:24Z jmercouris: how would we know if a function is compostable using something in the spec?
2019-11-22T22:22:26Z phoe: some of them will need to be primitives
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2019-11-22T22:22:38Z jmercouris: I think this problem is infinitely harder than you imagine it to be
2019-11-22T22:22:44Z phoe: no, why?
2019-11-22T22:22:56Z phoe: we start with all operators needing to be built-in
2019-11-22T22:22:58Z jmercouris: the goal is to figure out THE MINIMUM amount of functions not written in CL
2019-11-22T22:23:16Z phoe: and then discover which ones can actually be implemented using other operators
2019-11-22T22:23:17Z jmercouris: that's the thing though, can those functions be further reduced to a set of functions?
2019-11-22T22:23:36Z phoe: that needs to be figured out
2019-11-22T22:23:46Z jmercouris: for example, could I write only 3 functions in potato that can be combined to produce all the "primitives" I need?
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2019-11-22T22:24:13Z phoe: the concrete numbers will depend, but I think my algorithm is sane
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2019-11-22T22:24:22Z Xach: PEEK, POKE, and HALT should do it
2019-11-22T22:24:33Z jmercouris: what if we slightly extended our spec with a couple of Lisp functions, could we get away with only two Potato functions?
2019-11-22T22:24:38Z phoe: just list all the operations and then try to reduce them
2019-11-22T22:24:52Z Xach: I believe Henry Baker has a paper on this topic too
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2019-11-22T22:25:45Z Xach: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html is what I was thinking of
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2019-11-22T22:25:51Z jmercouris: drmeister: how did you decide what to implement in C++ for Clasp? I see it is a much bigger proportion of C++ than SBCL is C
2019-11-22T22:26:00Z phoe: yes, exactly this one
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2019-11-22T22:26:20Z phoe: it lists multiple transforms, for instance IF to LAMBDA, LET to LAMBDA and so on
2019-11-22T22:26:22Z Xach: it's a nice read on thinking about how to determine if something is "more primitive" than something else.
2019-11-22T22:26:50Z jmercouris: Can it easily be implemented as an algorithm?
2019-11-22T22:27:00Z drmeister: We need to bootstrap from a C++ compiler. So I wrote whatever I needed to bootstrap in C++ until I can start using Common Lisp code during the booting phase.
2019-11-22T22:27:03Z jmercouris: Or would someone need to manually go through every functions and reduce them?
2019-11-22T22:27:11Z jmercouris: s/function/functions
2019-11-22T22:27:20Z drmeister: I also cribbed a lot from ECL - so if ECL implemented something in C I tended to implement that thing in C++.
2019-11-22T22:28:07Z White_Flame: jmercouris: I think your "I want to implement CL on top of Potato" is a bit off.  You don't need to build CL on top of Potato.  You can implement CL directly talking to the asm interfaces of the OS, bypassing Potato
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2019-11-22T22:28:41Z copec: bootstrapping is fun
2019-11-22T22:28:48Z jmercouris: White_Flame: I'm not trying to implement CL ontop of Potato, this is a purely theoretical conversation
2019-11-22T22:28:51Z drmeister: ECL was my roadmap and caffeine was my copilot.
2019-11-22T22:29:03Z _death: if Potato is CL, then you can get by with writing 0 functions in non-CL
2019-11-22T22:29:17Z White_Flame: jmercouris: right, but SBCL for instance isn't "built on top of C" inasmuch as it only uses C for some bootstrapping and low level runtime support
2019-11-22T22:29:17Z jmercouris: CL can be said to be a bit potato sometimes
2019-11-22T22:29:26Z copec: drmeister had a specific goal to have a realistic interface to C++
2019-11-22T22:29:41Z White_Flame: compiled CL functions in SBCL are not C functions, so I would say that does not count as "built on top of C", as it's no longer C that's running
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2019-11-22T22:32:52Z copec: SBCL only uses C as the ABI container
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2019-11-22T22:33:17Z White_Flame: things that I would consider "built on top of C" would be a C-based interpreter, a macro/function suite that allows you to program in the sublanguage from right within C, which expands to C code, or a Lang->C converter a la ECL
2019-11-22T22:33:26Z copec: The SBCL bootstrap process is a work of art
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2019-11-22T22:38:17Z copec: Essentially all of the compilation to machine code (Or internal object code I suppose you could say) is done by CL based code, only the interface between that and the OS is in C
2019-11-22T22:38:56Z White_Flame: and technically that C layer is unnecessary, just easier to do it that way in a OS with a C API
2019-11-22T22:40:01Z jmercouris: any CLs that are bootstrapped directly off of some sort of assembler?
2019-11-22T22:40:25Z phoe: CCL contains a fair share of assembly in its kernel, as well as some C.
2019-11-22T22:40:26Z White_Flame: I don't quite see why one would bother
2019-11-22T22:40:34Z phoe: also ^
2019-11-22T22:40:38Z White_Flame: although Symbolics common lisp probably counts as CL+asm all the way down
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2019-11-22T22:41:03Z copec: You could say they all trace their lineage back to a lisp image that was bootstrapped from ASM
2019-11-22T22:41:05Z jmercouris: its not about why one would bother, its simply a question
2019-11-22T22:41:08Z White_Flame: not sure if it compiles to an intermediate zetalisp or whatever first
2019-11-22T22:42:02Z copec: SBCL has an assembler internally in it jmercouris
2019-11-22T22:42:33Z White_Flame: depends on what "bootstrapped" means
2019-11-22T22:42:43Z phoe: copec: oh right, https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/
2019-11-22T22:42:45Z copec: It is used to make the initial (cold in sbcl vernacular) image
2019-11-22T22:42:49Z White_Flame: CL functiosn themselves have no C involved.  But the API to hit the OS goes through C
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2019-11-22T22:44:33Z copec: well, the internal assembler is used by all the code, but the CL code to build SBCL initially is run by the host CL implementation
2019-11-22T22:44:41Z copec: which is often SBCL itself, but not always
2019-11-22T22:45:17Z copec: So you could say it is build up by an assembler implemented in CL
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2019-11-22T22:49:11Z copec: You might like https://github.com/clasp-developers/clasp/wiki/The-Build-Process jmercouris
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2019-11-22T22:50:13Z logicmoo: one trick i am doing in WAM-CL is coding soemthning in prolog by hand.. hten translating ECL lisp src to Prolog to replace what i wrote in prolog by hand.. eventually will have no hand written Prolog code
2019-11-22T22:50:43Z logicmoo: (the onl;y reason it was written by hand at least once was for bootstrapping)
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2019-11-22T22:52:50Z copec: I asked beach if they had a strict subset of CL that SICL was implemented with, but the answer is nay. So it can be really confusing until you remember that once it has compiled itself enough times, the less optimized code gets replaced
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2019-11-22T22:54:41Z logicmoo: i assume the compiler for SICL is written in Lisp
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2019-11-22T22:55:46Z logicmoo: wam-cl compiler is written in Prolog so it doesnt self improve :(
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2019-11-22T22:56:05Z copec: so that it DOESN'T?
2019-11-22T22:56:07Z copec: heh
2019-11-22T22:56:16Z logicmoo: but i am happy still
2019-11-22T22:57:24Z logicmoo: hrm perhaps not actualyl improve by suuch a process
2019-11-22T22:57:35Z logicmoo: erm not any do
2019-11-22T22:57:40Z logicmoo was thinking they did
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2019-11-22T22:58:15Z copec: SICL is CL written in CL using all the modern knowledge of implementing a CL, according to my understanding
2019-11-22T22:59:09Z copec: Clasp is essentially enough of a CL written in C++, using the LLVM libs, to build SICL
2019-11-22T23:00:09Z copec: and subsequently rebuild itself, replacing those bootstrapping parts
2019-11-22T23:01:34Z jmercouris: copec: interesting link
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2019-11-22T23:21:18Z copec: Also, Clasp has C++ objects working with a dynamic garbage collecting memory allocator, and drmeiste is a chemistry guy, not a cs guy
2019-11-22T23:21:28Z copec: he is one of those super-achievers
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2019-11-22T23:25:36Z edgar-rft: Structure and Interpretation of Chemistry Programs (still to be written by drmeister)
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2019-11-22T23:31:47Z copec: ahaha
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2019-11-22T23:40:14Z pjb: jmercouris: sbcl shares some with cmucl.  ecl shares some with kcl.   ccl shares some with mcl.
2019-11-22T23:40:21Z pjb: jmercouris: basically, forks.
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2019-11-22T23:42:00Z pjb: jmercouris: there's no defined or unique kernel to CL.  beach's programming sicl using the whole CL.  You could theorically implement a CL using only the 35 special operators.  Or just lambda.  It's a silly question with no answer.
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2019-11-23T01:47:56Z logicmoo is trying to find the version of ECL that has teh least number of things implemented in C
2019-11-23T01:48:02Z logicmoo is now known as dmiles
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2019-11-23T01:49:51Z dmiles: of course, aternatively i'd be happy with any full CL that has the least number of thing my interpreter would need to implement
2019-11-23T01:52:56Z dmiles: i am using ECL 0.8 right now
2019-11-23T01:55:19Z dmiles: i am trying to find a version that has the least ammount of "kernel" code
2019-11-23T01:55:34Z Bike: for what purpose exactly?
2019-11-23T01:56:07Z dmiles: I started implementing a new Common Lisp (of course, right?)
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2019-11-23T01:57:02Z dmiles: That uses no C or ASM
2019-11-23T01:57:25Z dmiles: that translates purely into Prolog https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/tree/master/prolog/wam_cl
2019-11-23T01:58:42Z dmiles: to see it in  actuion... https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/t/sanity-test.lisp_load.md#compiled--umapcar-visualize
2019-11-23T01:59:28Z dmiles: that there is where it is loading a .lisp file showing how its compiling
2019-11-23T02:00:10Z dmiles: it is outputing github flavored markdown there
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2019-11-23T02:00:34Z Bike: implementations sometimes are built in more complicated ways than like, having some lisp subset and then loading the rest of the language in like a library file
2019-11-23T02:00:43Z Bike: ECL does do that, so you're on the right track there, i guess
2019-11-23T02:02:53Z dmiles: there is probably even 3 levels...  MinimalSupport + InitalCompiledToBackend + LibraryCompliedToBackendEachTime
2019-11-23T02:03:40Z dmiles: yet the second might be called CL
2019-11-23T02:05:34Z dmiles: why i bring that is that up is that the LibraryCompliedToBackendEachTime is sometimes hard for me to tell from 2nd
2019-11-23T02:06:09Z dmiles: the 2nd (InitalCompiledToBackend) is stuff i see for sure becomes C files
2019-11-23T02:06:31Z Bike: if i'm supposed to know what these "levels" mean based on their names i uh, don't, sorry
2019-11-23T02:07:51Z dmiles: Sorry I should call them build passes
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2019-11-23T02:09:42Z dmiles: sorry.. i'll have to think a bit on how to phrase what i am asking
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2019-11-23T02:37:03Z dmiles: well what i should say.. is what be even more awesoem for me is if ECL wasnt bothering to make C files
2019-11-23T02:37:39Z White_Flame: you mean an interepreter?
2019-11-23T02:37:42Z Bike: "bothering"...? that's like, how it works
2019-11-23T02:37:45Z dmiles: or better if a CL was never able to compile or translate anyhting.. if it was all merely an interpreter.. in which then i could decide where/when to compile things
2019-11-23T02:38:13Z White_Flame: maybe you should look at older CLISP then
2019-11-23T02:38:16Z Bike: if you have your own implementation it doesn't need to compile anything until compile or compile-file is called
2019-11-23T02:40:46Z dmiles: ok, looking at older CLISP
2019-11-23T02:41:16Z White_Flame: while I haven't poked into your details, are you wanting to compile CL into Prolog, or interpret CL from Prolog?
2019-11-23T02:42:26Z dmiles: I have been so far compiling to Prolog (thus translating) then loading/executing the translated version
2019-11-23T02:43:13Z dmiles: but I am starting to be jsut as happy if i was interpreting
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2019-11-23T02:43:40Z dmiles: then finish off teh compiler later
2019-11-23T02:45:30Z dmiles: the translator/compiler is mostly working but the last 29% of the code i need to write for it is still unknown.. heck it might be 50% still i need to do
2019-11-23T02:46:48Z White_Flame: the first 90% of the code takes 90% of the time.  The final 10% takes the other 90% of the time.
2019-11-23T02:48:00Z dmiles: hehe .. that indeed is the problem
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2019-11-23T02:51:07Z dmiles: one problem was even though ECL code was helping out i still have to remove anything related to C backend
2019-11-23T02:53:26Z dmiles: would have.. so gonna try http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/impl/clisp/0.html
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2019-11-23T02:56:13Z dmiles: but still open to suggestions if someone knows of a CL interpreter that 90% or more is just written in .lisp
2019-11-23T02:59:18Z dmiles: such an interpreter would fake out compile/compile-file
2019-11-23T02:59:47Z aeth: well, compiling in that context would be bytecode compiling
2019-11-23T03:01:15Z dmiles: that be acceptable as long as if it expected to bytecode its system libs i can get in there and stop that
2019-11-23T03:01:42Z White_Flame: do you want to interpret s-expressions directly?
2019-11-23T03:01:58Z White_Flame: I think picolisp does that, but it's not CL
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2019-11-23T03:02:47Z dmiles: i want it (the impl) to have done that.. But I am actualyl compiling
2019-11-23T03:03:35Z dmiles: if my compiler was broken one day.. it be nice to still have something that worked
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2019-11-23T03:03:59Z dmiles: yeah... like picolisp but common lisp :)
2019-11-23T03:05:05Z Bike: i don't really get it
2019-11-23T03:05:15Z Bike: if you just want an interpreter written in lisp t here's ones in sbcl and stuff
2019-11-23T03:05:21Z Bike: but then you need a lisp to start with
2019-11-23T03:05:54Z dmiles: even with such an interpreter .. i am still taking chunks out of its interpeter making it call my compiler first then executing
2019-11-23T03:07:15Z dmiles: Bike: in the case with SBCL i would need to ensure it could be used with its compiler completely broken
2019-11-23T03:08:17Z dmiles: Current version of SBCL that might not work, but maybe older versions
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2019-11-23T03:10:31Z Bike: i think the sb-interpreter package doesn't need the compiler, but i could be wrong
2019-11-23T03:10:55Z dmiles: impls seem to start out close to what i am starting out with and then over time they drift futther away
2019-11-23T03:11:14Z dmiles: (in order to become faster.. etc)
2019-11-23T03:11:18Z Bike: using the compiler is really convenient.
2019-11-23T03:11:52Z Bike: you could also write an interpreter yourself. i have most of a closure compiler (which would be portable) somewhere, i just didn't see a demand
2019-11-23T03:12:03Z Bike: the annoying parts are parsing declarations and parsing lambda list bindings, but you can sorta jank code for that
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2019-11-23T03:15:09Z dmiles: in my host language i wrote a compiler and interpreter that handlers defun/defmacro/lamda etc... it parses the lambda lists and produces host language stub functions that call them etc.. i qualkify it as janky code :P
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2019-11-23T03:18:29Z dmiles: Bike: "most of a closure compiler (which would be portable) somewhere" i'd love to look at it and see if i can use it
2019-11-23T03:18:51Z Bike: uhm, i can throw it on github i guess
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2019-11-23T03:19:23Z dmiles arglist parser: https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/arglists.pl
2019-11-23T03:19:45Z Bike: https://github.com/Bike/compilerer i haven't touched this since 2014 apparently and don't remember how it works beyond the concept
2019-11-23T03:19:52Z Bike: which is you "compile" forms into just closures
2019-11-23T03:21:52Z dmiles: if it can compile loops to closures that helpfull
2019-11-23T03:22:24Z Bike: i don't think it runs
2019-11-23T03:22:41Z Bike: i mean you need to have a working lisp, too
2019-11-23T03:22:50Z Bike: which is why i'm not sure i understand what you're going for here
2019-11-23T03:24:19Z dmiles: well what io was thinking is it would have been a  Full-CL-AST to a lessFullAST (but still CL)
2019-11-23T03:25:05Z Bike: here, like for example look at how tagbody is defined https://github.com/Bike/compilerer/blob/master/tagbody-go.lisp
2019-11-23T03:25:08Z dmiles: So the closures it would create might still be serializable to CL
2019-11-23T03:25:34Z Bike: it takes a tagbody form, and returns this (lambda (stack) ...) closure
2019-11-23T03:25:45Z dmiles: yep like that
2019-11-23T03:26:10Z Bike: but to compile the compilerer system you need to have like a working loop macro and stuff, here
2019-11-23T03:26:10Z dmiles: (just i might return the lambda quoted for me)
2019-11-23T03:26:40Z dmiles: oh .. my lisp mostly works.. it passes quite a few ANSI tests
2019-11-23T03:27:28Z White_Flame: do you compile LET into LAMBDA somewhere in there?  seems like it would be the most obvious one
2019-11-23T03:27:44Z White_Flame: ^Bike
2019-11-23T03:28:25Z Bike: i don't remember
2019-11-23T03:28:35Z White_Flame: I was just poking through and didn't notice it
2019-11-23T03:28:37Z Bike: the annoying one is let* since you have to figure out which declarations go with which bindings
2019-11-23T03:28:49Z White_Flame: ah, I could see that
2019-11-23T03:29:07Z Bike: lambda is annoying because you have to pase the lambda list and also worry about special bindings
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2019-11-23T03:32:37Z dmiles: yeah i insert a closure of restoration of specials
2019-11-23T03:34:31Z dmiles: i think my impl might be good enough to run  sb-interpreter
2019-11-23T03:36:48Z dmiles: i have a working package system.. readtables, arrays, hashtable .. quitre a bit of CL implemented
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2019-11-23T03:42:35Z dmiles: "yeah i insert a closure of restoration of specials"  this is done gensyming a tempvar savign a value.. then SETQing the specials at LET[*] time .. then SETQing back at body exit time
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2019-11-23T03:53:51Z White_Flame: dmiles: as long as that still runs when unrolling from conditions or throws
2019-11-23T03:54:22Z White_Flame: also you have to consider threading effects, as dynamic bindings should be thread-local
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2019-11-23T03:57:29Z dmiles: i am using unwind-protect for the restorations .. but hrrm the threading side effect i realized i not actualyl done it correctly now
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2019-11-23T03:59:24Z dmiles: -side
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2019-11-23T04:00:25Z dmiles: i maybe should do symbol-value as a thread local property
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2019-11-23T04:01:13Z White_Flame: symbol-value has both a global binding and optionally a thread local one
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2019-11-23T04:02:11Z dmiles: oh right actually.. if no thread-local one had been started ..  a SETQ would hit the global?
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2019-11-23T04:02:40Z White_Flame: yes, and all threads see that, if they haven't created their own binding
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2019-11-23T04:03:44Z White_Flame: in SBCL, referring to a special var's value checks the TLS value first, and if it's unbound, returns the global symbol-value
2019-11-23T04:03:53Z dmiles: oh interesting.. after the SETQ that hits the Global i might start lettign this thread have the Binding it jsut set as if thread local
2019-11-23T04:04:08Z White_Flame: the TLS value is mutated, storing old values on a stack, as you do
2019-11-23T04:04:29Z dmiles: this thread will pretend from then on it is thread local
2019-11-23T04:04:30Z White_Flame: and yeah, setting a variable has to check the TLS as well, to determine where it goes
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2019-11-23T04:05:53Z dmiles: (this allows otehr threads to nanoselconds later to manip the Global and it wont hurt the thread that just did the same thing
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2019-11-23T04:06:26Z White_Flame: (let ((*x* *x*)) ...)
2019-11-23T04:06:53Z dmiles: (the thread that previously setq'd))
2019-11-23T04:06:54Z White_Flame: would capture the current global value into tls (assuming no existing outer binding)
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2019-11-23T04:23:24Z dmiles: yeah... (let ((*x* *x*)) ...)   ==   (let ((tempvar *x*))  (unwind-protect (progn (convert-to-tls '*x*) ... ) (setq *x* tempvar))
2019-11-23T04:25:03Z dmiles: (oh, though that there leaves it as a TLS.. i should undo that)
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2019-11-23T05:04:43Z jeosol: ping beach:
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2019-11-23T05:04:55Z jeosol: Good morning everyone
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2019-11-23T05:07:39Z jeosol: I have a CLOS question: Do slots initialized with :default-initargs in the base case, are the values carried over in the derived class?
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2019-11-23T05:08:08Z jeosol: *base case -> base class
2019-11-23T05:08:48Z Bike: default-initargs are inherited. i think
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2019-11-23T05:09:33Z jeosol: Thanks Bike. That's what I expected, but I am getting some weird behavior. Let me check my code again.
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2019-11-23T05:17:29Z jeosol: Bike: I seem to get correct behavior if I re-specify default-initarg for the slot in the derived class. It doesn't appear it is carried over
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2019-11-23T05:17:56Z Bike: paste?
2019-11-23T05:17:57Z jeosol: This is excerpt is from PCL: This option is used to specify forms that will be evaluated to provide arguments for specific initialization parameters that aren't given a value in a particular call to MAKE-INSTANCE
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2019-11-23T05:18:58Z Bike: what does that have to do with inheritance
2019-11-23T05:19:33Z Bike: (defclass foo () ((%slot :initarg :slot :accessor foo-slot)) (:default-initargs :slot 7)) (defclass bar (foo) ()) (foo-slot (make-instance 'bar)) => 7
2019-11-23T05:19:36Z Bike: on my system
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2019-11-23T05:20:49Z jeosol: Thanks. That's what I am expecting.
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2019-11-23T05:21:42Z Bike: if you paste your code i might be able to figure out your problem
2019-11-23T05:21:47Z jeosol: My code is just messy now, I need to refactor a bit for clarity. I may have chosen a poor design for my class structures.
2019-11-23T05:22:28Z jeosol: Let me see how I can do that, it's a fairly complex system with lots of files.
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2019-11-23T05:33:37Z jeosol: Bike: Thanks. It was a bug in my code. I had 3-level inheritance and  mixed up the inherited class at 2nd level
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2019-11-23T05:42:03Z Bike: happy to be of assistance
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2019-11-23T05:46:08Z jeosol: I picked a complex class structure where I am stringing a lot of concepts together (A,B,C,D), with each concept taking a few options/cases (e.g., A1, A2). I am now creating several classes: (defclass A-B-C-D () .) (defclass A1-B-C-D (A-B-C-D) () (:default-initargs ...))
2019-11-23T05:46:55Z jeosol: It then became difficult to manage the options and possibilities. Perhaps a different design would have been more tractable. When I started, I modeled this case after the stream example in Sonja Keene's CLOS book.
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2019-11-23T06:17:03Z markasoftware: From the (defclass) CLHS docs: "The :accessor slot option specifies that an unqualified method is to be defined on the generic function named reader-function-name to read the value of the given slot and that an unqualified method is to be defined on the generic function named (setf reader-function-name) to be used with setf to modify the value of the slot. "
2019-11-23T06:17:35Z markasoftware: How can the generic function be "named" as a form?
2019-11-23T06:17:42Z markasoftware: (for the writer)
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2019-11-23T06:23:44Z pjb: markasoftware: this is a special case. Functions can be named either by a symbol, or by a list where the first element is CL:SETF and the second a symbol.
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2019-11-23T06:24:09Z pjb: markasoftware: those functions can be used in the expansion of the setf macro.
2019-11-23T06:24:54Z pjb: markasoftware: note: there are other ways to implement accessors used by setf that are not functions named (setf foo), such as setf-expanders, and other implementation specific ways.
2019-11-23T06:24:59Z pjb: clhs setf
2019-11-23T06:24:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_setf_.htm
2019-11-23T06:25:01Z pjb: see ^
2019-11-23T06:25:24Z markasoftware: So there's no symbol whose function slot holds that setter?
2019-11-23T06:25:24Z pjb: and Section 5.1.2 (Kinds of Places).
2019-11-23T06:25:39Z pjb: markasoftware: this is implementation dependent.
2019-11-23T06:26:00Z markasoftware: huh
2019-11-23T06:26:05Z pjb: markasoftware: some implementation intern a symbol named |(SETF FOO)|, some put an entry in the symbol-plist of FOO, etc.
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2019-11-23T06:40:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-23T06:48:35Z beach: It is interesting to see that jmercouris seems to assume a particular way of bootstrapping Common Lisp, i.e., that it has to be built from a small subset of itself.  As it turns out, that is a very painful way of bootstrapping a Common Lisp system.
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2019-11-23T06:51:51Z Dibejzer: Hey, can I ask a question
2019-11-23T06:53:02Z beach: Of course.
2019-11-23T06:55:36Z Dibejzer: The question is about running Lisp scripts
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2019-11-23T06:55:55Z Dibejzer: I am trying the hello world script found here
2019-11-23T06:55:57Z Dibejzer: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Shebang-Scripts
2019-11-23T06:56:15Z Dibejzer: i cannot run it with just typing hello-world.lisp in the terminal
2019-11-23T06:56:42Z Dibejzer: Needless to say, I'm still a noob with Linux
2019-11-23T06:57:39Z beach: Dibejzer: I'll let someone else answer.  I never run my Common Lisp programs that way.
2019-11-23T06:58:13Z Dibejzer: Thanks anyway beach :)
2019-11-23T06:58:58Z Dibejzer: And, just for the sake of curiosity, what do you use Lisp for?
2019-11-23T06:59:36Z beach: Me?  Research.
2019-11-23T07:02:13Z no-defun-allowed: Dibejzer: I think that is a shell problem, not a SBCL problem. Did you `chmod +x hello-world.lisp` first and run it using `./hello-world.lisp`?
2019-11-23T07:02:55Z Dibejzer: sudo: ./hello-world.lisp: command not found
2019-11-23T07:03:41Z Dibejzer: no-defun-allowed: nope, I didn't :)
2019-11-23T07:03:47Z Dibejzer: gimme a sec
2019-11-23T07:04:00Z no-defun-allowed: And most certainly, do NOT run it with sudo unless superuser permissions are necessary.
2019-11-23T07:04:12Z Dibejzer: Hey, this worked!
2019-11-23T07:04:28Z Dibejzer: Iiiif you could just be kind enough to tell me what I did there :)
2019-11-23T07:05:20Z no-defun-allowed: If you run a program with sudo, it can pretty much do whatever with your computer, as it is run as the `root` user.
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2019-11-23T07:06:17Z Dibejzer: hm, coming from windows this thing is a bit strange
2019-11-23T07:06:36Z Dibejzer: i find myself using sudo way to often, yet again i'm advised not to
2019-11-23T07:06:44Z Dibejzer: So I must be doing something wrong
2019-11-23T07:06:52Z no-defun-allowed: It would be like rightclicking the program and selecting "Run as Administrator".
2019-11-23T07:06:58Z no-defun-allowed: You absolutely are doing something wrong.
2019-11-23T07:07:45Z Dibejzer: I'm on my "learning iteration" with Linux.
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2019-11-23T07:07:56Z no-defun-allowed: These are Unix problems and not Lisp problems though, so I should probably leave them though.
2019-11-23T07:08:04Z Dibejzer: But, even "simple" actions, like entering folders quite often are impossible without sudo
2019-11-23T07:08:27Z Dibejzer: Yeaaah, we're off topic at this point
2019-11-23T07:08:49Z phoe: Dibejzer: if you can't enter a folder without sudo there's usually a very good reason for that
2019-11-23T07:08:59Z no-defun-allowed facedesks <https://i.imgur.com/UAXaYar.mp4>
2019-11-23T07:09:15Z aeth: usually log folders?
2019-11-23T07:09:45Z Dibejzer: Nah, even opening nautilus asks me for password
2019-11-23T07:09:49Z no-defun-allowed: Then you should change the permissions on those directories so that your regular user can read them instead of using a hammer^W^Wsudo on them.
2019-11-23T07:09:57Z Bike: that's a pretty painful looking slam
2019-11-23T07:10:23Z aeth: Dibejzer: you can always discuss it in #lispcafe (the off-topic channel) but that doesn't sound typical
2019-11-23T07:10:32Z aeth: like some configuration is horribly wrong or something
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2019-11-23T07:10:38Z Dibejzer: So, is it a normal workflow that you have to manually change permissions for so many folders?
2019-11-23T07:10:45Z aeth: no
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2019-11-23T07:11:06Z Dibejzer: didn't think so :)
2019-11-23T07:11:30Z aeth: pretty much everything in modern Linux/Unix is done in /home/your_name and permissions don't really come into play unless you e.g. want to make install SBCL globally (but you can install SBCL locally, I do... in fact, usually /home is much larger than / so you literally can't install everything globally)
2019-11-23T07:11:57Z aeth: (since they're usually separate partitions)
2019-11-23T07:12:44Z aeth: Literally all of my programming is done locally, including installed language implementations. The only thing related to #lisp that I have installed in the root partition under /usr is stumpwm, the window manager, afaik
2019-11-23T07:12:56Z aeth: locally to my user rather than to all users, not like there are more than one user
2019-11-23T07:13:08Z aeth: Users are kinda repurposed to sandbox certain things like httpd
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2019-11-23T07:13:25Z no-defun-allowed still grabs SBCL from the Arch repository since that's usually close to the newest version
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2019-11-23T07:13:55Z Dibejzer: I understand the concept, but will take some time to understand how to implement it
2019-11-23T07:14:15Z Dibejzer: i always just recklessly sudo apt-get install stuff
2019-11-23T07:14:21Z Dibejzer: for now :D
2019-11-23T07:14:46Z Dibejzer: but, for example, the script we chmoded back there was in the ~/.clisp/hello-world.lisp
2019-11-23T07:14:52Z no-defun-allowed: Installing is one of the legitimate uses for sudo, running hello world programs probably is not.
2019-11-23T07:14:56Z no-defun-allowed is off for dinner
2019-11-23T07:15:17Z aeth: Installing things globally under root is dangerous because you can really mess things up if you're outside of your distro's package manager unless it's installed under /usr/local/ and even then it might mess up some things.
2019-11-23T07:15:50Z aeth: If it's under your home directory ~/ then the worst case is that it can mess up everything in home, which is only 85% of everything that's important :-p
2019-11-23T07:15:55Z aeth: Well, at least you can backup home.
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2019-11-23T07:16:22Z Dibejzer: So, the "sudo" needed for /home/ is there for a reason?
2019-11-23T07:16:40Z Dibejzer: instead, i should be going to /home/myname/?
2019-11-23T07:16:42Z aeth: no, you should not need sudo to access anything under /home unless it's under another user's home, but you only really need one "real" user who has a home
2019-11-23T07:16:49Z aeth: or, yes, under /home itself
2019-11-23T07:16:53Z aeth: but /home is for usernames
2019-11-23T07:16:58Z aeth: e.g. /home/aeth
2019-11-23T07:17:07Z Bike: i don't think this is the ideal channel for untangling why your system is apparently so untrusting of you
2019-11-23T07:17:10Z aeth: Do everything under /home/aeth, which if that's you is also ~/
2019-11-23T07:17:51Z Dibejzer: Okay, gonna stop now with the off-topic. Thanks a lot guys, and I apologize :)
2019-11-23T07:19:15Z aeth: Dibejzer: Anyway, the tldr is to write simple scripts under ~/bin (and chmod +x them) that set the correct environment variables (because often that's the only way to do it) and install stuff like SBCL locally. e.g. for SBCL I installed it to ~/.local I have a "export SBCL_HOME=/home/myname/.local/lib/sbcl" followed by the path to the ~/.local/bin/sbcl
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2019-11-23T07:21:16Z aeth: (then you only need sudo for updating the repo-provided CLs)
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2019-11-23T08:42:22Z Demosthenex: 5 second opinion, total noob looking for a simple testing framework while working in repl, what to use?
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2019-11-23T08:43:41Z Shinmera: clhs assert
2019-11-23T08:43:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_assert.htm
2019-11-23T08:43:58Z beach: Heh, I agree with Shinmera.
2019-11-23T08:44:39Z Shinmera: if you move on from the repl you might want to look into bigger things like parachute or whatever else. there's a thousand of them out there, so pyp.
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2019-11-23T08:45:17Z Demosthenex: heh, assert. ;]
2019-11-23T08:46:06Z Demosthenex: i'm seeing quite a few, that's why i asked. looks like alot of duplication, not alot of differences.
2019-11-23T08:46:17Z Demosthenex: i think i read about parachute once before
2019-11-23T08:46:35Z Demosthenex: just tinkering with a restful api, and wanted to start capturing things i'm doing in the repl as tests
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2019-11-23T08:51:25Z phoe: 1+ for assert
2019-11-23T08:51:34Z phoe: in the REPL, you need no testing framework
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2019-11-23T08:52:09Z phoe: if you want to run a bunch of automated tests, choose one of the already existing ones - 1am, fiveam, parachute, fiasco, anything.
2019-11-23T08:52:26Z phoe: UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES YOU SHOULD WRITE A NEW ONE.
2019-11-23T08:52:34Z Demosthenex: phoe: i agree with that! ;]
2019-11-23T08:52:35Z phoe: gosh I always feel bad after using full caps
2019-11-23T08:52:44Z Demosthenex: no, i have no desire to reinvent the wheel
2019-11-23T08:52:56Z phoe: but this needs to be pressed
2019-11-23T08:53:13Z phoe: soon we will have more testing frameworks than lispers
2019-11-23T08:53:19Z Demosthenex: and yes there is reason to use a testing framework with teh repl. i nail down a piece of code and test it on the repl, i need to record that in a test so it repeates later
2019-11-23T08:53:42Z phoe: oh, so it's no longer REPL-only
2019-11-23T08:54:31Z phoe: I default to 1am in the beginning since it is so dumb that I can fully understand it after reading its source
2019-11-23T08:54:39Z phoe: it is also one page long
2019-11-23T08:55:02Z phoe: then if that is inadequate, I migrate to parachute
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2019-11-23T08:56:35Z Shinmera: you can just (defun test () (assert ..) ..), you know
2019-11-23T08:57:26Z phoe: but yes, Shinmera's solution is the simplest test framework you can do
2019-11-23T08:57:38Z phoe: and (defun test-all () (test-1) (test-2) (test-3) (test-4) ...) is your test suite
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2019-11-23T09:17:08Z Demosthenex: caretul, that's dangerously close to writing your own
2019-11-23T09:17:23Z Demosthenex: ideally libraries exhibit best practices anyway
2019-11-23T09:17:35Z Shinmera: if only
2019-11-23T09:18:01Z Demosthenex: ssh! let me keep my noobish optimism
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2019-11-23T09:18:36Z Shinmera: Also, almost any discussion in here about what a best practise might be will inevitably result in hours long discussions, so I don't even know if such practises exist :)
2019-11-23T09:18:43Z Demosthenex: ha!
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2019-11-23T09:25:54Z Demosthenex: wtf, gigamonkeys is down?
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2019-11-23T09:32:24Z Demosthenex: hrm, archive.org shows a good copy as of nov 18
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2019-11-23T09:46:57Z smokeink: can slime step-debug through macro-expanded code ? https://stackoverflow.com/a/3216672
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2019-11-23T10:58:47Z vydd: phoe: hm. does any of the frameworks you listed support parametrization? (I tried looking at all of their docs, but couldn't find any hints on that)
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2019-11-23T11:04:01Z smokeink: also check out this https://github.com/rpav/CheckL
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2019-11-23T11:15:43Z Xach: Hmm, is there a good way to get in touch with Leo Zovic other than filing bug reports?
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2019-11-23T11:18:06Z samebchase: Well, his email is on his Github profile.
2019-11-23T11:18:14Z Xach: Is anyone here a close personal friend or possibly housemate of Leo?
2019-11-23T11:18:30Z Xach: samebchase: i think filing a bug report sends an email
2019-11-23T11:18:40Z samebchase: ah
2019-11-23T11:20:51Z phoe: vydd: parametrization as in running the same test body with different input each time?
2019-11-23T11:21:42Z vydd: phoe: yes
2019-11-23T11:25:57Z phoe: vydd: typically you do not need that in Lisp due to its functional nature; you can write a single test that has (dolist (test-datum *test-data*) (is (goodp test-data)))
2019-11-23T11:26:48Z phoe: where *test-data* os specified elsewhere
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2019-11-23T11:27:33Z vydd: phoe: wouldn't a test framework mark the whole test as failing in that case?
2019-11-23T11:28:09Z phoe: yes, the test fails, but you then know which exactly forms have failed
2019-11-23T11:28:20Z phoe: for which values of test-datum, that is
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2019-11-23T11:29:52Z vydd: either I'm confused about how ..parachute in your case? works, or we're talking about different things... let me test that code and get back to you
2019-11-23T11:32:02Z phoe: it's not idiomatic parachute code
2019-11-23T11:32:31Z phoe: I'm in a bus, can't really use a proper emacs now - maybe Shinmera will be able to assist
2019-11-23T11:32:50Z phoe: I'll be back around in 48 hours from now
2019-11-23T11:36:13Z vydd: no problem, have a safe trip
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2019-11-23T11:53:15Z vydd: phoe: it does work with dolist! that's cool https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1567#1567 ... Shinmera, maybe you could consider adding that to a FAQ?
2019-11-23T11:55:05Z vydd: curious thing, btw. with no docs, I just tinker with the code and try to make stuff work through autocomplete. when docs are available, and especially as comprehensive as Shinmera's, I try searching in docs first, and when I fail, I kind of assume the feature is simply not supported
2019-11-23T11:56:10Z phoe: so an example should perhaps be added, yes
2019-11-23T11:56:37Z phoe: vydd: glad that you figured it out
2019-11-23T11:57:59Z vydd: phoe: would've taken me much longer if you hadn't helped me out :)
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2019-11-23T12:08:42Z Shinmera: vydd: In those cases I typically construct my own test result instances instead of relying on IS etc, so that the overview shows the proper values.
2019-11-23T12:09:01Z Shinmera: It's a bit cumbersome though, so I might have to look into a way to improve that and add it to the docs.
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2019-11-23T12:09:42Z Shinmera: IS, etc. are just thin macros. If you expand one (or look in testers.lisp), you should be able to figure out how to get it done.
2019-11-23T12:10:44Z Shinmera: Also, doing parametric tests like that can quickly explode the number of test cases. I should add a way to bundle tests or suppress them from being displayed in the overview.
2019-11-23T12:12:05Z Shinmera: trying to run uax-9's tests with the default report will kill your emacs, for instance.
2019-11-23T12:16:00Z Shinmera: (it expands to almost two million tests)
2019-11-23T12:16:45Z vydd: oh wow..yeah, that ... sounds like a bit too much
2019-11-23T12:19:03Z Shinmera: All in the name of unicode compliance :)
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2019-11-23T12:34:23Z vydd: Shinmera: here's a reason why first class support for parametrization might be needed: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1568#1568
2019-11-23T12:34:49Z vydd: (I've read with-shuffling, and I'm aware it won't work, I just wanted to get the point across)
2019-11-23T12:35:31Z Shinmera: parametrisation is already supported.
2019-11-23T12:36:40Z vydd: oh, it is? :) that's how this whole thing started - I couldn't find it in docs, and then phoe offered dolist as a solution... so, how do I do it?
2019-11-23T12:37:06Z Shinmera: You don't use IS, as I said above.
2019-11-23T12:38:31Z Shinmera: (loop for test in (alexandria:shuffle (loop for x from 0 to 10 collect (make-instance 'parachute:comparison-result ..))) do (parachute:eval-in-context *context* test))
2019-11-23T12:38:46Z Shinmera: something like that.
2019-11-23T12:39:01Z Shinmera: IS and all are just a wrapper around e-i-c and make-instance.
2019-11-23T12:39:49Z Shinmera: you could also write a result that first gathers all tests, then shuffles them, and then evaluates them, then bind *context* before doing IS.
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2019-11-23T12:40:28Z Shinmera: Maybe with-shuffling ought to do that, but it might also be surprising. I don't know.
2019-11-23T12:40:59Z jjkola: hi
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2019-11-23T12:42:12Z vydd: understood. I thought there was a way other than the cumbersome one (your words! :)) when you said "supported", that got me confused
2019-11-23T12:42:37Z Shinmera: Ah, no, unfortunately not.
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2019-11-23T12:44:25Z vydd: do you accept PRs? I guess the real problem would be agreeing on the right API. maybe a new thing like DEFINE-PARAM-TEST could be introduced.. not sure
2019-11-23T12:45:06Z Shinmera: Sure.
2019-11-23T12:45:33Z Shinmera: Designing the right API is indeed the problem. I don't consider it urgent enough of a problem right now, though, since you can just construct the instances.
2019-11-23T12:46:48Z vydd: true...well. you know what, when I get to the stage I want to have regression tests in the app I'm working on, I'll try with parachute, and if make-instance starts getting annoying, we can chat again
2019-11-23T12:47:38Z Shinmera: Sounds good!
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2019-11-23T12:55:16Z Xach: Hmm! I need to provide an alternate name for http://beta.quicklisp.org/client/quicklisp.sexp because the "sex" substring is blocked for many people behind (very stupid) content filters.
2019-11-23T12:55:34Z Xach: What do you think of quicklisp.plist?
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2019-11-23T12:57:14Z Shinmera: I think I typically do .dat.lisp or something.
2019-11-23T12:57:21Z pfdietz: When using the RT test framework, I would use the idiom of having the form under test return NIL for success, otherwise it would return information about which specific input caused the failure.
2019-11-23T12:57:25Z vydd: Xach: sounds good... just not sure if it would be interpreted in a special way on macOS
2019-11-23T12:58:10Z vydd: or is it only Info.plist that's special?
2019-11-23T12:58:10Z Shinmera: pfdietz: In Parachute the test-result instance typically returns the result of the form under test when evaluated.
2019-11-23T12:58:46Z Shinmera: so you can do stuff like (is = 5 (thing (finish (make-instance '...))))
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2019-11-23T12:59:51Z pfdietz: I'm guessing the IS macro is so one can put several tests together that share some expensive set up and teardown code.
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2019-11-23T13:00:08Z Shinmera: IS is just a comparsion test.
2019-11-23T13:00:16Z Shinmera: FINISH is just a "does not error" test.
2019-11-23T13:00:55Z Shinmera: so FINISH returns the result of make-instance after completing the test, which is then the value for the thing function, that serves the IS comparison.
2019-11-23T13:01:02Z pfdietz: RT just has test definitions that look like (deftest <test-name> <test-form> <expected-results>)
2019-11-23T13:01:05Z Shinmera: But yes, it's mostly to avoid expensive computations.
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2019-11-23T13:01:07Z pfdietz: No "IS" needed.
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2019-11-23T13:01:26Z pfdietz: But each test has to set things up and tear down by itself.
2019-11-23T13:01:33Z Shinmera: I see.
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2019-11-23T13:04:14Z pfdietz: One thing I added to rt in ansi-test was the ability to execute the tests repeatedly, in random order.  This found a bug in SBCL (some persistent state in the handling of certain method combinations).   Not quite the same as with-shuffling.
2019-11-23T13:04:35Z Shinmera: Right.
2019-11-23T13:04:51Z Shinmera: There's a lot of stuff that could be added to Parachute that's found in other frameworks, I'm sure :)
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2019-11-23T13:06:38Z pfdietz: I just want to understand what all the various frameworks are bringing to the table, so one can be extended to cover all bases.
2019-11-23T13:07:26Z Shinmera: The latter is what Parachute tries to do. It has a very flexible evaluation model, which I tried to put to the test by writing compatibility layers that emulate the syntax and semantics of other frameworks.
2019-11-23T13:08:05Z pfdietz: Interesting.
2019-11-23T13:08:44Z Shinmera: I'd tackle more frameworks if I had time to spare.
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2019-11-23T14:10:33Z pfdietz: I need to find that usage summary for the various test frameworks in quicklisp systems.   A few had most of the "market".
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2019-11-23T14:28:03Z puchacz: hi, I can't find in ccl manual - are hash tables thread safe? is there a special keyword to make them safe?
2019-11-23T14:28:37Z pfdietz: In SBCL there is a keyword, but I don't know about CCL.  It's not from the CL standard in any case.
2019-11-23T14:29:10Z puchacz: I remember in sbcl :synchronized t
2019-11-23T14:29:48Z puchacz: I did not even install ccl, just want to try something, because there might be a bug in sbcl /hunchentoot when running on multiple cores.
2019-11-23T14:34:20Z puchacz: I will wrap it in with-lock myself
2019-11-23T14:36:00Z puchacz: actually not easy, gethash is not a generic function :-)
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2019-11-23T14:44:20Z puchacz: so maybe there is a library that would let me define around defuns, like in CLOS, so I can wrap calls to gethash and similar?
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2019-11-23T14:49:15Z Bike: you can't redefine standard functions
2019-11-23T14:49:23Z Bike: you could make your own function with the same name in a different package
2019-11-23T14:49:34Z beach: Bah, GETHASH should already be generic. :)
2019-11-23T14:49:46Z puchacz: Bike: I found a rumour ccl hashtables are thread safe and lock free
2019-11-23T14:49:56Z puchacz: https://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/Internals/LockFreeHashTables
2019-11-23T14:50:23Z Bike: well there you go then.
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2019-11-23T14:50:45Z puchacz: I am going to build ccl now and see how much code in my program needs adapting :)
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2019-11-23T14:52:23Z _death: note that your hunchentoot handlers may run in different threads
2019-11-23T14:52:58Z puchacz: death: I am not sure what crashes, would you expect for example a bug in my code to crash sbcl image like this? (hold on, need pastebin)
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2019-11-23T14:54:02Z puchacz: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/cbC7jWjsmz/
2019-11-23T14:54:28Z puchacz: when running the same delivered image locally on my PC, which is 4 cores virtual box, it is not crashing
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2019-11-23T14:54:48Z puchacz: but I rented a 32 core virtual computer and use it remotely
2019-11-23T14:55:41Z pfdietz: I wonder if SBCL could use a threading mode that does things more randomly, so bugs could be exposed with fewer cores.
2019-11-23T14:55:42Z puchacz: it is running a numerical model fitting, hunchentoot is for giving arguments to the cost function, it does the calculations in multiple threads, joins into a single result and returns it via hunchentoot to the "driver" routine
2019-11-23T14:56:12Z puchacz: the "driver" minimization routine runs on my PC
2019-11-23T14:56:30Z puchacz: I am trying now with sbcl 1.5.5, to see if there is a difference
2019-11-23T14:58:14Z _death: puchacz: this log indicates (i) corruption (ii) use of a bad file descriptor (maybe after being closed) .. do you know the reason for ii?
2019-11-23T14:58:28Z pfdietz: beach: it is of course conforming for an implementation to make GETHASH be generic, but no conforming program can exploit that.
2019-11-23T14:58:49Z puchacz: death: I don't read any files
2019-11-23T14:58:54Z pfdietz: (well, unless it first tested for it)
2019-11-23T14:59:00Z _death: puchacz: it's a socket file descriptor
2019-11-23T14:59:21Z puchacz: death: as if http connection was corrupted?
2019-11-23T14:59:50Z puchacz: it happens only after few hundred goal calls
2019-11-23T15:00:40Z _death: puchacz: I would guess that the socket got closed but still its fd being passed around
2019-11-23T15:00:42Z beach: pfdietz: Right.
2019-11-23T15:01:00Z puchacz: death: what does it mean and anything I can do about it?
2019-11-23T15:03:35Z _death: puchacz: as for the memory corrutpion, I don't know that it has to do with the fd trouble.. for that I would either pepper my source code with log forms to try to localize the problem, or try to use sbcl's debugger (ldb) to figure out more, or maybe use other tools.. maybe good to consult #sbcl to get tips on how to debug that
2019-11-23T15:04:26Z mister_m: Can someone help me find documentation on the `:read-file-form` function I see used when defining some asdf systems? For instance, when loading a version -- :version (:read-file-form "version.txt"). Google is really failing me.
2019-11-23T15:05:32Z puchacz: death: it seems it may be time for me to learn about ldb on sbcl channel
2019-11-23T15:05:52Z Bike: mister_m: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Version-specifiers-1
2019-11-23T15:06:18Z _death: at least it's good to log the thread ids and their roles (e.g., "hunchentoot handler thread", "acceptor thread", etc.).. the thread id where the corruption is detected is in the error message
2019-11-23T15:06:56Z _death: that of course does not mean that that's where the corruption happens.. but may provide clues
2019-11-23T15:07:33Z puchacz: is it possible to corrupt the image by improper use of threading you think?
2019-11-23T15:08:11Z puchacz: I understand I can corrupt data structures in my program in a sense of having something unexpected in a variable or cons cell, but can I break lisp itself?
2019-11-23T15:08:42Z mister_m: Bike: thank you!
2019-11-23T15:08:55Z puchacz: as of thread names, mind that it crashed before reaching my computations code
2019-11-23T15:09:16Z puchacz: so within hunchentoot
2019-11-23T15:10:02Z _death: puchacz: #sbcl is better informed than me on that.. but note that your program uses ffi (cl+ssl)
2019-11-23T15:10:27Z puchacz: hunchentoot loads it
2019-11-23T15:10:37Z puchacz: so I unload before deliverying the image and then load it back
2019-11-23T15:11:00Z puchacz: I think it is hunchentoot, I just checked that it was loaded, so I unloaded it
2019-11-23T15:11:10Z _death: you can also consider sb-bsd-sockets to have ffi qualities
2019-11-23T15:11:40Z puchacz: yes, anything that talks to operating system I think
2019-11-23T15:12:36Z _death: maybe it's possible to break into the debugger when corruption is detected
2019-11-23T15:12:47Z _death: again, you should ask #sbcl :)
2019-11-23T15:12:50Z puchacz: will do
2019-11-23T15:12:53Z puchacz: thank
2019-11-23T15:12:53Z puchacz: s
2019-11-23T15:13:08Z puchacz: mind that I was in the debugger - I typed foreground, and then backtrace
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2019-11-23T15:15:35Z _death: yeah, you landed there because of the second issue, I'm guessing.  but I'm talking about the low-level sbcl debugger
2019-11-23T15:15:44Z _death: (ldb)
2019-11-23T15:15:48Z puchacz: ok
2019-11-23T15:16:03Z puchacz: will talk to sbcl people
2019-11-23T15:16:21Z puchacz: as we speak, sbcl 1.5.5 is running just fine now, for about 30 minutes
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2019-11-23T15:17:09Z _death: if it's a multithreading-related bug, it's not really indicative :)
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2019-11-23T15:17:19Z puchacz: of course
2019-11-23T15:18:55Z _death: I wonder if valgrind could work with sbcl
2019-11-23T15:19:21Z puchacz: I don't know C/C++
2019-11-23T15:21:33Z _death: well, if there's memory corruption some low-level knowledge may be needed to find out the problem
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2019-11-23T15:24:03Z puchacz: learn-by-doing then
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2019-11-23T16:01:26Z jmercouris: Anyone know of a CL LSP or efforts to create one to allow for easier editing of CL outside of the Emacs ecosystem?
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2019-11-23T16:02:35Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, I am working on SICL, and I am planning (with a lot of help) and IDE that is not Emacs based.
2019-11-23T16:02:54Z jmercouris: beach: CLIMACS will use a LSP?
2019-11-23T16:03:51Z beach: Maybe.  I know there are attempts to create an editor using the LSP, but I don't know whether it will be Second Climacs.
2019-11-23T16:04:17Z jmercouris: I see
2019-11-23T16:04:18Z beach: You might want to ask scymtym.  He knows more about it than I do.
2019-11-23T16:04:27Z jmercouris: did you read the conversation yesterday about creating a CL?
2019-11-23T16:04:35Z beach: I did.
2019-11-23T16:04:58Z jmercouris: Have you thought about creating a "blue" and "yellow" pages?
2019-11-23T16:05:05Z beach: There is no unique smallest subset of Common Lisp like the one you are asking about.
2019-11-23T16:05:17Z jmercouris: would you know if it is calculatable?
2019-11-23T16:05:39Z jmercouris: is there a way to write a program to figure it out?
2019-11-23T16:05:42Z beach: I doubt it.  First of all, we have no measure about "smallest".
2019-11-23T16:05:59Z jmercouris: This is true
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2019-11-23T16:06:08Z jmercouris: I guess we would have to define size by some measure
2019-11-23T16:06:15Z beach: About splitting Common Lisp, it is very tricky.  Everything is intertwined.
2019-11-23T16:06:16Z jmercouris: but let's say we could, do you still think it would be very unlikely?
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2019-11-23T16:07:06Z beach: I have not thought about it for some time.  When I realized I was unable to write code using only a subset of the language, it became impossible for me to imagine starting with a small subset and building the rest from there.
2019-11-23T16:07:43Z oni-on-ion: or did he mean something like https://sep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/paulgraham/jmc.lisp?t=1564708198&
2019-11-23T16:07:53Z jmercouris: I am just thinking about it from a porting perspective, that's really why I am curious
2019-11-23T16:08:14Z oni-on-ion: jmer is couris. =P
2019-11-23T16:08:17Z jmercouris: I did read about clasp a b c intermediate languages
2019-11-23T16:08:20Z beach: jmercouris: What kind of porting do you mean?
2019-11-23T16:08:33Z jmercouris: I mean allowing CL to be compiled by different compilers
2019-11-23T16:08:44Z jmercouris: as we had discussed yesterday, compiling a CL implementation using Potato lang
2019-11-23T16:08:53Z beach: I saw it, yes.
2019-11-23T16:09:06Z jmercouris: and kind of minimizing that work by making it so you only have to make a very small amount of Potato lang functions to get everything started
2019-11-23T16:09:12Z samsepi01: When using SBCL timers, I get messages like "WARNING: Starting a poll (2) without a timeout while interrupts are disabled." I can’t understand what am I doing wrong?
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2019-11-23T16:09:27Z jmercouris: that's why I am so hung up on figuring out how to reduce the amount of work you would have to do in Potato lang to get started
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2019-11-23T16:09:32Z beach: jmercouris: I have no idea why you would want that.  Why not generate native code directly?
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2019-11-23T16:10:18Z _death: sounds like you want a retargetable compiler
2019-11-23T16:10:21Z jmercouris: beach: whether you are generating the code or writing it by hand, there is an amount of work in making your CL code compile via the Potato lang compiler
2019-11-23T16:10:41Z jmercouris: _death: that sounds correct based on my knowledge of words, but I don't know exactly what that is
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2019-11-23T16:10:58Z beach: jmercouris: I don't see why the Potato compiler would be required at all.
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2019-11-23T16:11:17Z jmercouris: beach: let's say you wanted to make your own version of ABCL, but instead of that it is PCL, potato common lisp
2019-11-23T16:11:29Z jmercouris: wouldn't you need the Potato compiler to get started?
2019-11-23T16:12:21Z jmercouris: maybe I'm not being clear, I'm not talking about compiling CL via Potato lang
2019-11-23T16:12:27Z jmercouris: I'm talking about using Potato lang to build a CL
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2019-11-23T16:12:29Z beach: jmercouris: So you want to take an existing Common Lisp system written in some language L1 (which i not Common Lisp), and you want to have it written in a language L2 instead (which is also not Common Lisp).  Is that it?
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2019-11-23T16:13:19Z jmercouris: No, let me try toe xplain again
2019-11-23T16:13:37Z jmercouris: We have a language X
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2019-11-23T16:13:41Z jmercouris: We have a compiler Y
2019-11-23T16:14:01Z jmercouris: I want to know how I can write code in Y language to compile X language with the smallest amount of work
2019-11-23T16:14:23Z jmercouris: after the initial compilation/bootstrapping, of course I could use X language to recompile X language
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2019-11-23T16:14:47Z beach: But what I am trying to tell you is that you don't need the initial step.
2019-11-23T16:14:59Z jmercouris: This is something I've never understood
2019-11-23T16:15:05Z beach: SICL is written entirely in Common Lisp.
2019-11-23T16:15:06Z jmercouris: you said something like that two years ago as well I believe
2019-11-23T16:15:15Z jmercouris: I still don't understand how you could do that without an initial step
2019-11-23T16:15:30Z beach: I use an existing Common Lisp system to execute the code.
2019-11-23T16:15:40Z jmercouris: Well, someone at some point must have done that initial step then
2019-11-23T16:15:44Z beach: Rather than some other language which would be much less convenient.
2019-11-23T16:16:12Z beach: I don't care how we arrived at the current situation, but it is there, and I can take advantage of it.
2019-11-23T16:16:24Z jmercouris: OK
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2019-11-23T16:16:36Z jmercouris: are there any advantages to bootstrapping with Potato lang?
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2019-11-23T16:16:48Z jmercouris: could we potentially build some sort of interop with Potato lang by using its compiler?
2019-11-23T16:17:00Z beach: That may be true.
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2019-11-23T16:17:16Z jmercouris: What really got me thinking about this was Clasp
2019-11-23T16:17:25Z jmercouris: I've been thinking and thinking about it, and I was wondering why there is so much C++ code
2019-11-23T16:17:32Z pjb: jmercouris: the only reason you may have to do bootstrapping, is if you're lost on Mars, can't communicate with Earth, and have built a new computer from scratch.
2019-11-23T16:17:35Z jmercouris: I'm sure it is necessary, but I'm wondering exactly *how much* is necessary
2019-11-23T16:17:41Z pjb: (there's a lot of sand on Mars, I hear).
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2019-11-23T16:17:53Z beach: jmercouris: Mainly because drmeister "lives and breathes C++" as he put it himself.
2019-11-23T16:17:58Z jmercouris: what about when people make new instruction sets and processors?
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2019-11-23T16:18:08Z jmercouris: don't they have to write new C compilers and bootstrap all over again?
2019-11-23T16:18:22Z beach: jmercouris: You cross compile.
2019-11-23T16:18:24Z pjb: jmercouris: you can cross-compile!
2019-11-23T16:18:31Z jmercouris: How does cross compilation work?
2019-11-23T16:18:55Z beach: You run on one computer and you generate code for a different one.
2019-11-23T16:19:04Z beach: So all you need to do is modify the code generator.
2019-11-23T16:19:21Z pjb: Already in the 60s, people DID NOT bootstrap anymore. At IBM, they implemented emulators of new computers to be able to develop the software with old computers for the new computer before the hardware was ready.  Bootstrapping is so '40s!
2019-11-23T16:19:34Z jmercouris: 11
2019-11-23T16:19:41Z jmercouris: that's hilarious
2019-11-23T16:19:47Z jmercouris: "Bootstrapping is so '40s"
2019-11-23T16:19:54Z jmercouris: I do hear the term used quite frequently though
2019-11-23T16:20:05Z _death: pjb: potatos are also relevant there, if you believe The Martian ;)
2019-11-23T16:20:12Z pjb: Truth is, bootstrapping is intriguing and funny.
2019-11-23T16:20:15Z oni-on-ion: we used bootstraps on our kids in the 40s ?
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2019-11-23T16:20:26Z jmercouris: That's how we'd pull ourselves up every morning!
2019-11-23T16:20:31Z jmercouris: and walk uphill both ways to school
2019-11-23T16:20:32Z oni-on-ion: aha
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2019-11-23T16:20:45Z oni-on-ion: with medicine full of morphine cocaine and wiskey
2019-11-23T16:21:01Z beach: jmercouris: I call it "bootstrapping" in SICL, but it is not that kind of bootstrapping.
2019-11-23T16:21:27Z jmercouris: beach: what is it really doing then?
2019-11-23T16:22:03Z beach: jmercouris: I use an existing Common Lisp system to execute SICL code that generates (or will generate) native code.
2019-11-23T16:22:15Z jmercouris: in this context what is "native" code?
2019-11-23T16:22:21Z jmercouris: it often helps me to imagine a concrete example
2019-11-23T16:22:26Z beach: X86-64.
2019-11-23T16:22:32Z jmercouris: ah, okay I see
2019-11-23T16:22:41Z jmercouris: so you have not yet made the part that generates X86?
2019-11-23T16:22:46Z beach: Not yet.
2019-11-23T16:22:54Z jmercouris: I will be interested to see how that looks
2019-11-23T16:23:18Z beach: jmercouris: For something existing, you can look at Mezzano or even SBCL.
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2019-11-23T16:23:32Z jmercouris: Ah, right, Mezzano *must* do that since it runs on bare metal
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2019-11-23T16:24:19Z pjb: jmercouris: already, people implementing new compilers by bootstrapping nowadays cheat, since they use top-notch macOS systems to edit and debug their code.  They should bootstrap it using a KIN-1 !!! http://oldcomputers.net/kim1.html
2019-11-23T16:24:22Z beach: jmercouris: There is a paper by Xof (= Krystof) about how SBCL is built.
2019-11-23T16:24:39Z pjb: s/KIN/KIM/
2019-11-23T16:25:08Z beach: jmercouris: The title is "SBCL, Sanely Bootstrappable Common Lisp".
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2019-11-23T16:25:51Z beach: jmercouris: My guess with respect to Common Lisp is that there is this idea that Common Lisp has to be created using some lower-level language, but that is not the case, of course.
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2019-11-23T16:26:16Z beach: jmercouris: Now, building a Common Lisp system is considerably harder than (say) writing a C compiler in C.
2019-11-23T16:26:30Z beach: Or, forget the "in C" even.
2019-11-23T16:26:45Z Xach: frodef's assembler was interesting to read
2019-11-23T16:27:07Z beach: jmercouris: The reason is that a C compiler is a simple file translator, whereas a Common Lisp system contains a complex graph of objects right from the start.
2019-11-23T16:27:21Z jmercouris: I found the paper
2019-11-23T16:27:37Z Xach: jmercouris: i found it helpful to understand that code to run on a machine is just a sequence of bits, and it's not hard to make a program in any language create a sequence of bits, either in memory on on disk. sometimes it's tricky to know what bits to put in what order, but they are all bits at the bottom.
2019-11-23T16:27:55Z Xach: this is also true of e.g. PNG files, or font files, or the X protocol, or PDFs, etc.
2019-11-23T16:27:56Z jmercouris: That's true, they are all indeed bits
2019-11-23T16:28:07Z beach: jmercouris: And, the best way of creating that graph is to execute code.  And it is best if that code is Common Lisp code.
2019-11-23T16:28:08Z jmercouris: I never thought about the common denomenator
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2019-11-23T16:28:39Z jmercouris: Maybe one day I will try to write a CL in CL that compiles to x86 directly
2019-11-23T16:28:46Z Xach: so if the bits on x86 to test for zero and jump are 42, and on arm it's 31, it's not a big deal to make a compiler on x86 generate arm, as long as you configure it to produce the right bits.
2019-11-23T16:29:21Z Xach: the higher-level management of program meaning is one thing and generating the right bits is another.
2019-11-23T16:29:24Z jmercouris: Right, I was just thinking about stuff like RISC or something which is quite different than x86
2019-11-23T16:29:26Z samsepi01: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/s32008/sbcl.pdf
2019-11-23T16:29:33Z jmercouris: I guess you could of course compose all of x86 using RISC
2019-11-23T16:29:45Z Xach: so there may be more or less bits to faithfully represent the intent to the machine
2019-11-23T16:30:10Z jmercouris: I bet it would be insanely difficult to formally prove that they are computionally equivalent
2019-11-23T16:30:42Z jmercouris: I did study some formal verification in graduate school, I ended up leaving the class feeling like it was a toy that could never really be used
2019-11-23T16:30:43Z samsepi01: https://www.tele-task.de/lecture/video/844/
2019-11-23T16:30:43Z _death: Turing already did the work
2019-11-23T16:31:40Z jmercouris: thanks for the explanations and links, more to think about, I'm off to cook some dinner now
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2019-11-23T16:38:41Z puchacz: so I started ccl locally, I can see its make-hash-table non-standard keyword arguments, but where is it documented?
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2019-11-23T16:42:38Z puchacz: okay, I will guess
2019-11-23T16:42:48Z puchacz: from the source
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2019-11-23T17:24:06Z pjb: puchacz: have you tried the documentation of ccl?
2019-11-23T17:24:27Z pjb: https://ccl.clozure.com/manual/
2019-11-23T17:24:34Z puchacz: pjb: yes
2019-11-23T17:24:55Z puchacz: does not seem to have information on make-hash-table extensions
2019-11-23T17:24:58Z pjb: Then the sources, yes.
2019-11-23T17:25:04Z puchacz: :(
2019-11-23T17:25:16Z pjb: You can write a patch to the doc.
2019-11-23T17:27:13Z puchacz: well, it is all guesswork
2019-11-23T17:28:28Z Dibejzer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKB6wrGht1U
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2019-11-23T18:11:44Z puchacz: okay, ccl is much slower than sbcl, for my simulations it matters a lot
2019-11-23T18:12:05Z puchacz: btw, 1.5.5 also has this memory corruption error
2019-11-23T18:12:12Z puchacz: (if you are still here death)
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2019-11-23T18:29:55Z _death: have you tried reducing the amount of code that runs? if it's only a trivial handler, does it still happen?
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2019-11-23T18:30:22Z puchacz: _death this is going to be my next step I think, to isolate the problem
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2019-11-23T20:17:38Z mfiano: Heh, Ultralisp sounds like the worst idea ever. Anyone use this?
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2019-11-23T20:18:58Z puchacz: have we got "threading and allocation torture test"?
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2019-11-23T20:20:42Z mfiano: Suppose I make a project on my github called "alexandria" and click the big blue button on ultralisp.org to add it. Everyone that updates their dist and loads a system that depends on it (nearly anything transitively), and they likely won't know that it secretly deletes / recursively until it's too late. I can't believe there is no review process and it updates every 5 minutes. Maybe I'm missing
2019-11-23T20:20:44Z mfiano: something, but these MITM-like attacks seem quite easy with this model.
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2019-11-23T20:41:22Z borodust: Xach: hi! anything new with PGP for quicklisp dists? i apologize in advance, if i missed some critical news regarding that feature
2019-11-23T20:41:51Z borodust: was super busy with work lately :/
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2019-11-23T22:13:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: sounds like npm
2019-11-23T22:13:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
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2019-11-23T22:34:21Z luis: Alexandria has a parse-ordinary-lambda-list. Is there a parse-macro-lambda-list somewhere?
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2019-11-23T22:47:23Z Bike: implementations probably has it, but it's not as easy to define, since the recursive structure means the multiple value return isn't enough
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2019-11-23T23:56:01Z pjb: luis: what about a (parse-lambda-list ll :macro)?
2019-11-23T23:56:11Z pjb: luis: cf. com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-sexp.source-form:parse-lambda-list
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2019-11-24T01:37:26Z luis: pjb: cool, thanks.
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2019-11-24T04:08:36Z anlsh: test
2019-11-24T04:08:48Z no-defun-allowed: anlsh: Congrats, it works.
2019-11-24T04:09:44Z anlsh: Well we'll see, I'm trying to set up erc on emacs and registration isn't being very co-operative
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2019-11-24T04:19:28Z luis: Bike: also, what about? https://github.com/Bike/sandalphon.lambda-list :D
2019-11-24T04:19:41Z Bike: haven't touched it in a while, probably won't work
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2019-11-24T04:53:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-24T04:59:13Z buffergn0me: Good morning
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2019-11-24T04:59:22Z kscarlet: Good night everyone!
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2019-11-24T05:06:11Z jeosol: Good morning
2019-11-24T05:07:13Z jeosol: is there any analogous member function for checking if an element is a member of a 1D vector or just convert vector to list?
2019-11-24T05:07:34Z beach: clhs find
2019-11-24T05:07:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm
2019-11-24T05:08:09Z beach should teach minion to provide a link for Universal Greeting Time.
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2019-11-24T05:08:55Z beach: jeosol: The entire chapter on "sequences" contains functions that work both on lists and on vectors.
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2019-11-24T05:09:47Z no-defun-allowed: minion: help
2019-11-24T05:09:47Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
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2019-11-24T05:10:41Z jeosol: Beach: Forgot about "find". It's been a long day
2019-11-24T05:10:45Z jeosol: Thank
2019-11-24T05:10:46Z jeosol: Thanks
2019-11-24T05:10:52Z beach: Sure.
2019-11-24T05:11:14Z no-defun-allowed: minion: tell beach about Universal Greeting Time
2019-11-24T05:11:14Z minion: beach: please look at Universal Greeting Time: It is always morning when a person enters a channel, and late night when they leave. You may want to read http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html for further information
2019-11-24T05:11:30Z beach: Nice!  Thanks!
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2019-11-24T07:03:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: anlsh: I used erc for a while but I've switched to circe
2019-11-24T07:04:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: + a bouncer on a VPS
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2019-11-24T07:08:09Z anlsh: hmm well I just got it to work so I think I'm gonna leave it alone for a nice long while :D
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2019-11-24T11:00:55Z pfdietz: These automatically update all your packages things seem like a version control nightmare.
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2019-11-24T11:37:27Z lukego: pfdietz: I'm not sure what the context of your comment is exactly, but I think a really interesting point in the design space is dependency sets that update automatically but are also tracked in version control. That way when something somewhere breaks you can 'git bisect' to find the problem.  I can sometimes do this with nixpkgs dependencies, https://github.com/lukego/blog/issues/17
2019-11-24T11:38:50Z pfdietz: It was referring to an earlier discussion here of Ultralisp.   Your comment is interesting and useful, thank you.
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2019-11-24T12:54:50Z easye: lukego: Having a bisect command available to use is always very handy.  hg bisect works well for me!
2019-11-24T12:55:06Z lukego: hey easye :-)
2019-11-24T12:55:19Z easye waves.
2019-11-24T12:55:24Z lukego: cool to see all the ABCL activity on my twitter stream lately :)
2019-11-24T12:55:46Z easye: Yeah, I'm try to be more social in my hacking.
2019-11-24T12:56:06Z easye: s/try/trying/
2019-11-24T12:56:46Z easye: lukego: been following your SNAP work avidly.
2019-11-24T12:56:54Z easye: s/SNAP/SNAB/
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2019-11-24T12:58:19Z lukego: I'm just thinking about how to take that to the next level now. Current crazy idea is a Lisp-based DSL for writing network dataplane applications that transpiles them into various targets e.g. CPU/GPU/FPGA. So have to learn a bit about CUDA and HDL now... which is a fun problem to have :)
2019-11-24T12:59:18Z easye: Know of any good hosted CUDA solutions?  I don't need my aging equipment's fans wheezing around me.
2019-11-24T13:00:10Z easye been meaning to get to GPU/FPGA now that I have a reasonable CFFI working in abcl-1.6.0
2019-11-24T13:00:48Z lukego: EC2 seems to be a one stop shop for CPU + GPU + FPGA now. GCE does GPU at least too. Just recently realized that Amazon F1 FPGA instances provide ~1Tbps of CPU<->FPGA I/O bandwidth (8 x PCIe3 x8) and so it should be fine for doing really high-end development. $13/hour but I think you'd only run the big iron about 1% of the time during dev anyway.
2019-11-24T13:01:51Z lukego: I have a bunch of servers full of e.g. 100Gbps network cards at home but I think I'll move my testing over to EC2 with FPGAs pretending to be NICs under heavy load. Safe the noisy boxes at home and their care and feeding.
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2019-11-24T13:02:15Z easye: lukego: exactly.
2019-11-24T13:02:47Z easye: I deliberately left all my boxes with cables in New York...
2019-11-24T13:03:19Z lukego: I moved from Switzerland to Sweden recently and was tempted to leave the boxes behind, but they ended up being pretty easy in a moving van.
2019-11-24T13:03:22Z pfdietz: Heat dissipation can get annoying, never mind the noise.
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2019-11-24T13:03:40Z easye: But it can be cold in Sweden, if you have power.
2019-11-24T13:03:59Z lukego: pfdietz: yeah. I had all the servers in a cool cellar before, but at my new digs I don't know if I'll be able to keep them happy in summer.
2019-11-24T13:04:31Z puchacz: hi, is it possible to log all sbcl output to a file (but keep printing it as usual)?
2019-11-24T13:05:42Z pfdietz: clhs dribble
2019-11-24T13:05:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dribbl.htm
2019-11-24T13:06:10Z puchacz: thanks
2019-11-24T13:06:17Z pfdietz: yw
2019-11-24T13:08:41Z puchacz: (dribble #P"/home/ubuntu/tmp/all.log")
2019-11-24T13:08:51Z puchacz: and the file only has a star character in it
2019-11-24T13:09:10Z puchacz: not growing despite sbcl printing heavily
2019-11-24T13:14:37Z puchacz: got you, you have to close the file with (dribble)
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2019-11-24T13:55:08Z drmeister: If I knew what Instagram was I’d Instagram these. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/ht9VDfBH/1574603679.JPG
2019-11-24T13:55:48Z drmeister: Whoops - wrong channel. Sorry
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2019-11-24T13:58:16Z edgar-rft: yummi
2019-11-24T14:01:16Z pfdietz: Or the deliciously right channel.
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2019-11-24T14:23:01Z sugarwren: mit-scheme appears to support threads (it has at least the procedures current-thread, thread? and create-thread) but I can't find any further information in its docs
2019-11-24T14:23:41Z drmeister: I've been working on figuring out how to make sourdough bread - that's my fifth loaf and the first one that looks good.
2019-11-24T14:24:27Z drmeister: This time I tried scalding 1/3rd of the flour and my starter "Wheatley" was especially precocious this week.
2019-11-24T14:25:13Z Bike: sugarwren: this channel is for common lisp. try #scheme
2019-11-24T14:25:14Z drmeister: That's just a bit of backstory - I had meant to post that to #clasp where we talk about developing of the Clasp implementation of Common Lisp and baking.
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2019-11-24T14:26:01Z lukego: drmeister: gorgeous.
2019-11-24T14:26:38Z sugarwren: Bike, sure, thanks
2019-11-24T14:26:41Z drmeister: lukego: Thank you - I'm feeling pretty good about it.
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2019-11-24T14:27:02Z drmeister: A little more on topic...
2019-11-24T14:27:26Z drmeister: Has anyone generated Microsoft Excel spreadsheets by some other approach than CSV files using Common Lisp?
2019-11-24T14:28:23Z Shinmera: The microsoft formats are insane, so probably not.
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2019-11-24T14:37:01Z drmeister: Yeah - I've been searching the interwebs - it doesn't look good.  I'm looking into the XML formats now.
2019-11-24T14:38:57Z lukego: drmeister: I'd check for related R packages for reference.
2019-11-24T14:42:16Z flip214: drmeister: the xlsx is just a zip container... and sheet1.xml looks readable.
2019-11-24T14:43:19Z flip214: or some remote control for libre office, if that's too bothersome
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2019-11-24T14:44:21Z flip214: --accept=accept-string    Specifies a UNO-URL connect-string to create a UNO acceptor through which other programs can connect to access the API.
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2019-11-24T14:47:10Z drmeister: Then there is this... http://www.libxl.com/
2019-11-24T14:47:41Z drmeister: And our special C++ powers...
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2019-11-24T14:55:00Z _death: there's https://github.com/defunkydrummer/lisp-xl although I didn't try it
2019-11-24T14:57:44Z _death: looks like it's geared for reading and not writing, though
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2019-11-24T15:07:24Z knegg: hello/
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2019-11-24T15:19:55Z Lycurgus: moin knegg
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2019-11-24T15:24:55Z beach: knegg: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
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2019-11-24T15:25:38Z knegg: yes. im noob :D
2019-11-24T15:26:20Z beach: I see.  Welcome.
2019-11-24T15:26:43Z knegg: im reading a book on neural networks and LISP came up and im reading about homoiconicity. i have some basic programming knowledge and am trying to figure out what the specialty of that homoiconicity is.
2019-11-24T15:26:51Z knegg: thx :D
2019-11-24T15:27:07Z knegg: but i joined the channel before i can even formulate my questions properly
2019-11-24T15:27:19Z beach: It means you can easily manipulate code as if it were ordinary data in the language.
2019-11-24T15:27:25Z beach: We do that in macro expanders for instance.
2019-11-24T15:27:36Z Lycurgus: actually that's the big selling point of another lisp
2019-11-24T15:27:57Z Lycurgus: (this channel is common lisp oriented)
2019-11-24T15:28:09Z Lycurgus: that other being clojure
2019-11-24T15:28:46Z knegg: is lisp just by accident good for ai or was it designed for this?
2019-11-24T15:29:07Z Lycurgus: traditionally it was the lang of choice
2019-11-24T15:29:24Z Lycurgus: but a generation or two have elapsed since then
2019-11-24T15:29:48Z Lycurgus: i.e human not programmer
2019-11-24T15:29:48Z pfdietz: The channel for lisp family languages in general is ##lisp
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2019-11-24T15:30:48Z knegg: can maybe tell me what this example does that is given in this video?
2019-11-24T15:30:51Z knegg: https://youtu.be/o7zyGMcav3c?t=257
2019-11-24T15:31:27Z knegg: (eval a) seems like a command that returns the "variable" and not the value?
2019-11-24T15:32:01Z mfiano2: That is Clojure code. This channel if for Common Lisp.
2019-11-24T15:32:04Z knegg: and the grey text is to explain what the program does or contains internally?
2019-11-24T15:32:06Z mfiano2: is*
2019-11-24T15:32:32Z knegg: oh.. he says this is lisp and the next screen is clojure
2019-11-24T15:32:50Z beach: knegg: Lots of people would like their language to be "a Lisp".
2019-11-24T15:33:04Z beach: knegg: But there is not widespread agreement as to what "Lisp" means.
2019-11-24T15:33:15Z beach: knegg: We avoid the debate here by sticking to Common Lisp.
2019-11-24T15:33:46Z knegg: ok, ill head over to the other channel then. thx for the quick reaction though :]
2019-11-24T15:34:13Z beach: knegg: There are no "commands" in Common Lisp.  EVAL is a function that that takes data that represents code and executes that data as if it were a program.
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2019-11-24T15:35:58Z knegg: hmm.. data that represents code. if something is code then its code unless i would mark it as text in vba (sorry - i said basic :])
2019-11-24T15:37:08Z puchacz: knegg, you may want to see the presentation "clojure for java programmers", where the clojure author explains what "code is data" means in lisp world
2019-11-24T15:37:29Z beach: knegg: In Common Lisp, the READ function turns a sequence of characters into a data structure.  Whether that data structure represents code or not depends on what other program is processing it.
2019-11-24T15:38:14Z beach: knegg: For example, if it is further processed by the compiler, then the compiler assumes that the data structure represents code.
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2019-11-24T15:44:23Z knegg: im thinking :D
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2019-11-24T15:47:51Z beach: knegg: Most languages do not expose the representation of code, other than as a sequence of characters.
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2019-11-24T15:48:29Z beach: knegg: Common Lisp has a defined way of turning that sequence of characters into code represented as nested linked lists, symbols, numbers, etc.
2019-11-24T15:49:15Z beach: knegg: Then, everything else in the language is defined in terms of those nested lists.
2019-11-24T15:50:06Z knegg: the big point must be that the following java code (in that video) for that simple example is about 3 pages long.
2019-11-24T15:50:26Z beach: I wouldn't know.  Sorry.
2019-11-24T15:52:38Z knegg: i think i need to get what that code is doing. he defines a function that sets variable b (which obviously is not a variable because it is lisp/clojure)to 15. then by that function (eval a) he returns that "variable" and for the program this is both the variable and the value 15 ? am i getting it right so far?
2019-11-24T15:53:31Z Bike: you're talking about (setf a '(setf b 15)) and (eval a)?
2019-11-24T15:54:14Z knegg: yes
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2019-11-24T15:54:32Z beach: knegg: I didn't watch the video.  But let's do the analogous thing in Common Lisp, to be on topic.  If I type (defparameter a '(defparameter b 15)) for instance...
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2019-11-24T15:54:46Z Bike: that sets the value of the variable A to be a list of three elements SETF, B, 15. then (eval a) means the value of A, that is, that list, is passed to the eval function, which treats the list as code and performs what it says to do, namely (setf b 15), which sets the value of the variable B to be 15
2019-11-24T15:55:01Z knegg: wait i can upload a screenshot of it
2019-11-24T15:55:10Z Bike: the example in the video actually is common lisp.
2019-11-24T15:55:19Z beach: knegg: I think we should stick to Common Lisp.
2019-11-24T15:55:41Z knegg: https://imgur.com/KvmgT7Q
2019-11-24T15:55:43Z beach: knegg: But Bike has the right interpretation of it.
2019-11-24T15:56:16Z Bike: there's no function definitions involved here, just to be clear
2019-11-24T15:56:31Z Bike: A is set to a list, not a function
2019-11-24T15:56:40Z Bike: i have no idea what you mean by "obviously is not a variable because it is lisp"
2019-11-24T15:57:13Z Bike: also, in his notation here, the return values are indicated in the comments. (eval a) will return 15, not the symbol B
2019-11-24T15:57:25Z Bike: he doesn't write the return values of the setfs or evals
2019-11-24T15:57:30Z knegg: ahh
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2019-11-24T16:02:18Z Bike: do you get it now?
2019-11-24T16:02:34Z knegg: so you call a is variable?
2019-11-24T16:02:44Z knegg: and its value is a list
2019-11-24T16:03:01Z knegg: the 2nd line in the code does what? call/execute the list?
2019-11-24T16:03:17Z Bike: well, we might more specifically say A is a symbol that names a variable, but we often conflate the name with the variable
2019-11-24T16:03:21Z knegg: i think i need the terminology as well if i am to understand
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2019-11-24T16:04:22Z knegg: so setf is what? a command or a definition for the symbol A?
2019-11-24T16:04:48Z beach: knegg: It's the assignment operator.
2019-11-24T16:04:52Z knegg: and then calling up that symbol will go through the list
2019-11-24T16:05:10Z Bike: (setf foo bar) is like "foo = bar" in C or whatever
2019-11-24T16:05:49Z Bike: i don't remember enough visual basic to tell you the syntax there. "foo := bar" maybe
2019-11-24T16:05:52Z knegg: eval is a function?
2019-11-24T16:06:02Z Bike: eval is a function, yes.
2019-11-24T16:06:17Z jackdaniel: setf is an operator which sets places (place is more general than a variable behind a symbol
2019-11-24T16:06:42Z jackdaniel: )
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2019-11-24T16:07:40Z beach: jackdaniel: So is = in C. :)
2019-11-24T16:08:02Z Bike: friggin lvalues
2019-11-24T16:08:09Z beach: Indeed.
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2019-11-24T16:10:15Z beach: knegg: You can see it as if in C you had a function eval that let you do eval("b = 15"); the result of which would assign 15 to the variable b.
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2019-11-24T16:10:31Z knegg: so 1st line defines what happens when a is called/executed. then 2nd line does that and the variable b is set to value 15. then 2nd line is just "a" which i take the program to run the thing and assign the value 15 to variable b.
2019-11-24T16:11:02Z Bike: no.
2019-11-24T16:11:03Z knegg: ehh that was redundant
2019-11-24T16:11:12Z beach: knegg: Or rather a = "b = 15;", then eval(a);
2019-11-24T16:11:20Z Bike: your framing in terms of "called/executed" is wrong. a variable binding is just a mapping from variables to values.
2019-11-24T16:11:35Z knegg: ok a = b = 15
2019-11-24T16:11:41Z Bike: the quotes are important.
2019-11-24T16:11:54Z beach: knegg: No, a = "b = 15;";
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2019-11-24T16:12:08Z Bike: the first line sets a value of a. the second line just returns the value of a without doing anything.
2019-11-24T16:12:08Z knegg: ok. got it a = "b = 15".
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2019-11-24T16:12:47Z Bike: between lines two and three, B has no defined value, unless it was defined earlier i guess.
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2019-11-24T16:15:45Z Bike: the second line doesn't call or execute anything. it just looks up the value of A.
2019-11-24T16:16:09Z knegg: the ;; and => is indicating what? what i would see when i do somehting line "print a" "print b"?
2019-11-24T16:16:30Z Bike: semicolons (;) start comments
2019-11-24T16:16:46Z Bike: it's saying that if you entered "a" you'd see "(setf b 15)" back
2019-11-24T16:17:15Z Bike: the system prints the value for you.
2019-11-24T16:20:23Z knegg: ok, 2nd line gives me the value of a which is the list i assigned it and 3d line (eval a)gives me not the list like when i let the value of a return but it gives me the 2nd element of the list.
2019-11-24T16:20:57Z Bike: no, like i said, he doesn't indicate the return values of the eval calls.
2019-11-24T16:21:14Z Bike: in this case eval would return 15.
2019-11-24T16:22:00Z Bike: that's because eval would evaluate the list SETF, B, 15, and the assignment returns the value (15)
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2019-11-24T16:24:40Z knegg: (oh.. why does it put 15 in comment text then?)so (eval a)does nothing by itself but b in the next line will return the value for b which is 15? like i would define setf b 15 c 28 and then go (eval a)c it would return 28?
2019-11-24T16:25:08Z Bike: no, eval does everything.
2019-11-24T16:25:16Z Bike: it performs the assignment.
2019-11-24T16:25:33Z Bike: (eval '(setf b 15)) is like you'd just written (setf b 15).
2019-11-24T16:26:01Z Bike: the comment text is something the presenter wrote in.
2019-11-24T16:26:09Z Bike: this isn't like an actual REPL session
2019-11-24T16:27:34Z knegg: you are doing your best mate! but i think i need to actually do a basic lisp tutorial to understand it.
2019-11-24T16:27:42Z Bike: seems likely.
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2019-11-24T16:36:17Z akoana: knegg: I'm too learning Common Lisp, entering the example code into a REPL session is quite instructive... play with the real thing :)
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2019-11-24T16:40:42Z knegg: whats repl? im watching a tutorial on the syntax now. maybe that helps for that simple example already
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2019-11-24T16:41:21Z akoana: knegg: repl = read eval print loop
2019-11-24T16:42:26Z akoana: knegg: when you start a common lisp you it will wait until you enter something and read it
2019-11-24T16:42:49Z akoana: then it will eval it, and print the result
2019-11-24T16:43:07Z akoana: then it starts again (the loop)
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2019-11-24T16:43:22Z knegg: ahh sounds good!
2019-11-24T16:44:15Z knegg: but also sounds like it needs an escape function :D
2019-11-24T16:44:48Z akoana: knegg: entering  (quit)  will usually terminate your session
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2019-11-24T16:45:56Z knegg: im glad it does. on the recent vba version the alt+ctrl+break doesnt help anymore. had a hard time exiting my latest endless loop :D
2019-11-24T16:46:18Z akoana: knegg: most people use an IDE for programming in Common Lisp (Emacs + Slime + SBCL)
2019-11-24T16:47:30Z akoana: but for first steps you could use clisp only, it is similar to working in a shell
2019-11-24T16:47:49Z akoana: and available in linux and windows
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2019-11-24T16:50:42Z akoana: knegg: portacle (https://portacle.github.io/) has everything you need, it runs on Windows, OS X, and Linux.
2019-11-24T16:51:11Z akoana: knegg: and it is easy to install
2019-11-24T16:53:32Z knegg: ok cool. ill try to understand that concept with minimal effort to be frank because i wanna continue with that book to continue with another book... looking into machine learning took me several days already. its super interesting and i understood the basic stuff but i did not programm any neural networks there either :D
2019-11-24T16:57:17Z _death: knegg: check out http://fzalkow.github.io/cl-mlep/
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2019-11-24T16:59:22Z knegg: "to be fairly easy to use so that even intermediate Common Lisp programmers" thx man. but.. im a total noob :D
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2019-11-24T17:07:27Z knegg: lol... the video tutorial on lisp ends at min 6:31 with nothing like eval. only having shown "strings", 'symbols t, nil and how calculations are done :D
2019-11-24T17:08:39Z akoana: knegg: hey, using _death's suggestion (cl-mep) you'll have fun and will advance by exploring the examples
2019-11-24T17:09:16Z akoana: knegg: I'd also recommend Little Bits of Lisp  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0TsdytmGhc
2019-11-24T17:11:00Z knegg: ok will do, thank you
2019-11-24T17:12:35Z akoana: knegg: happy hacking :)
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2019-11-24T17:21:43Z puchacz: cl-mlep - is it fast enough?
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2019-11-24T20:49:10Z phoe: puchacz: fast enough for what
2019-11-24T20:49:49Z puchacz: phoe: most ML is done by wrapping C++ or C libraries in Python, basically - how does it compare, do you know?
2019-11-24T20:50:24Z puchacz: with Matlab being astonishingly slow, and Python C/C++ fast, do you know where does cl-mlep sit?
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2019-11-24T21:11:35Z jfb4: puchacz: what aspect of ML do you need in particular
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2019-11-24T21:13:27Z puchacz: jfb4: I am on a course in a bank, there was just one class as of now, with neural network recognising handwriting digits, honestly I did not check the full curriculum.
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2019-11-24T21:13:53Z puchacz: but I would like to know if a library can "scale" to be used out of the course as well
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2019-11-24T21:44:55Z no-defun-allowed: puchacz: Depends on your compiler, but you should expect fairly close to C.
2019-11-24T21:45:22Z puchacz: I will definitely play with cl-mlep, using sbcl
2019-11-24T21:45:41Z no-defun-allowed: Most of it is number crunching, which can get compiled very well.
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2019-11-24T21:47:49Z puchacz: ok
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2019-11-24T22:36:29Z _death: I thought cl-online-learning would be cool for actual use, though I've not yet had the chance
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2019-11-25T00:03:05Z mfiano: Can the MOP allow me to have a class named by a cons rather than a symbol?
2019-11-25T00:03:42Z Bike: i don't believe so.
2019-11-25T00:04:11Z mfiano: Ok thanks.
2019-11-25T00:04:40Z no-defun-allowed: As in, (find-class '(your . cons)) will give you that class, or that the class-name of that class is your cons?
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2019-11-25T00:05:26Z mfiano: The latter. Don't ask why. I think both of our heads would explode if I tried to explain it. It just seems like the best abstraction for a hard problem I've been trying to solve.
2019-11-25T00:05:37Z no-defun-allowed: I think you can do (make-instance 'standard-class :name '(your . cons)) to make a class that has a cons for a name, but I don't know if it's portable.
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2019-11-25T00:05:49Z Bike: mop doesn't really cover the interaction with the environment
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2019-11-25T00:05:56Z mfiano: I would like to (make-instance '(pkg1:foo pkg2:bar) ..) but if it's not possible I'll continue my search
2019-11-25T00:06:04Z Bike: probably not possible
2019-11-25T00:06:10Z Bike: of course you can define your own find-class etc
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2019-11-25T00:08:52Z mfiano: Yeah I think that is a better idea
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2019-11-25T00:09:00Z mfiano: Which may work for my purpose. Thanks
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2019-11-25T00:11:57Z pjb: mfiano: make-instance is a generic function. If you can map your list onto a symbol, then you can do it.
2019-11-25T00:12:16Z pjb: mfiano: but are you able to map lists onto symbols?  Are you?
2019-11-25T00:12:31Z mfiano: Depends what you mean by that
2019-11-25T00:12:55Z pjb: (intern (format nil "~S" '(foo bar))) #| --> |(foo bar)| ; nil |#
2019-11-25T00:12:56Z pjb: duh!
2019-11-25T00:14:24Z mfiano: Well yeah, that's an option.
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2019-11-25T00:14:58Z Bike: oh, huh, according to beach's pages at least the class-name is only "usually" a symbol
2019-11-25T00:15:01Z Bike: did not know
2019-11-25T00:15:03Z Bike: that doesn't change find-class tho
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2019-11-25T02:04:08Z LdBeth: Well maybe mfiano means construct anonymous class from two parent class on the class
2019-11-25T02:04:24Z LdBeth: Which I think is feasible
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2019-11-25T04:26:48Z jcowan: Question for anybody:
2019-11-25T04:27:08Z jcowan:  Question for anyone:  When you think of an alist, do you think by default of one with atomic keys that can be tested with EQL, or of one with keys that aren't necessarily atomic and are testd with EQUAL?
2019-11-25T04:27:22Z jcowan: oops, paste stutter
2019-11-25T04:28:33Z no-defun-allowed: Probably atomic keys that are EQL, so probably symbols. FWIW, EQL is the default test for assoc among other alist managing things.
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2019-11-25T04:33:58Z White_Flame: I have a lot of macros that set alist & plist functions' :test to #'eq, so I often use the former
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2019-11-25T04:53:35Z jcowan: Thanks both
2019-11-25T04:54:10Z jcowan: As I've said before, EQ is basically a performance hack, and it's EQL that is Lisp's identity predicate.
2019-11-25T04:54:42Z jcowan: (IMO, that is)
2019-11-25T04:54:55Z White_Flame: yep, and it's a performance hack I end up using fairly often ;)
2019-11-25T04:55:29Z White_Flame: but even with numbers, if you have array or list indexes/lengths, those numbers are always going to be fixnum, as they can only be as big as address space anyway
2019-11-25T04:56:10Z White_Flame: (for any sane CL implementation)
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2019-11-25T04:57:58Z jcowan: Fair enough
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2019-11-25T05:06:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-11-25T05:09:26Z equwal: Good morning beach!
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2019-11-25T06:53:30Z beach: mfiano: I think CLIM classes for presentation types have names that are conses.
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2019-11-25T06:58:14Z beach: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/23-3.html#_1145
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2019-11-25T07:04:03Z beach: "class-name of this class returns a list (presentation-type name)"
2019-11-25T07:05:47Z beach: It is an interesting observation though.  Is the integration with the type system based on CLASS-NAME of the class (I don't think so) or FIND-CLASS?
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2019-11-25T07:13:45Z beach: AHA!  The secret is that the class name must be a "proper name" (see the glossary) for it to be a type.
2019-11-25T07:14:47Z beach: That is, FIND-CLASS of SOME-SYMBOL must return a class with a CLASS-NAME of SOME-SYMBOL.
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2019-11-25T07:31:12Z beach heaves a sigh of relief since the SICL bootstrapping procedure uses classes with the same CLASS-NAME as the standard ones. 
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2019-11-25T07:36:32Z beach: So I think that what CLIM II did should not be necessary.  They could have used symbols as names.  But, as Scott McKay told me, when they wrote the CLIM II specification, CLOS implementations were not very good.
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2019-11-25T07:43:12Z beach: He also told me that the way moore33 implemented presentation types for McCLIM was the way they would have wanted to use for commercial CLIM, but (again) the CLOS implementations at the time just weren't good enough.  I don't know what they did instead, though.
2019-11-25T07:45:39Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/list-named-class
2019-11-25T07:47:37Z beach: phoe: What makes you think that in ANSI Common Lisp, all classes must be named by symbols?
2019-11-25T07:48:08Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_defcla.htm
2019-11-25T07:48:18Z phoe: Class-name---a non-nil symbol.
2019-11-25T07:48:25Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_find_c.htm
2019-11-25T07:48:31Z phoe: symbol---a symbol.
2019-11-25T07:48:36Z beach: phoe: I.e. where do you see that it is not allowed to do (make-instance 'standard-class :name '(a b c))?
2019-11-25T07:48:51Z phoe: In the MOP, classes may be named with anything. In ANSI CL, the names must be symbols.
2019-11-25T07:49:07Z beach: phoe: Where do you see that it is not allowed to do (make-instance 'standard-class :name '(a b c))?
2019-11-25T07:49:21Z beach: phoe: DEFCLASS is not the fundamental way of making classes.
2019-11-25T07:49:31Z jackdaniel: I don't understand the "In the MOP remark" -- that would mean that having MOP in ones implementation violates the spec
2019-11-25T07:49:42Z jackdaniel: "In the MOP" remark*
2019-11-25T07:50:01Z phoe: I remember us having a similar discussion some time ago
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2019-11-25T07:51:21Z beach: phoe: I am waiting for your answer...
2019-11-25T07:51:22Z jackdaniel: good for you,  but I don't think it counts as an argument ,)
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2019-11-25T07:51:59Z phoe: beach: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_class_.htm
2019-11-25T07:52:06Z phoe: this GF must return a symbol
2019-11-25T07:52:11Z phoe: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-name.html
2019-11-25T07:52:13Z jackdaniel: could you link something what does not timeout?
2019-11-25T07:52:17Z phoe: but the MOP says it may return an object
2019-11-25T07:52:40Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_class_.htm
2019-11-25T07:52:51Z phoe: so the MOP conflicts with the CLHS here
2019-11-25T07:53:02Z beach: Hmm, right you are.
2019-11-25T07:53:26Z beach: But DEFCLASS is not what you should use as an argument.
2019-11-25T07:53:32Z phoe: beach: yes, sorry about that
2019-11-25T07:54:15Z beach heaves another sigh of relief that all SICL classes have symbols as names. 
2019-11-25T07:56:55Z beach: So I guess if I ever want McCLIM to run on SICL, I need to allow this extension.
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2019-11-25T07:58:55Z phoe: McCLIM doesn't in any way depend on this code though
2019-11-25T07:59:09Z phoe: it must have some internal mechanisms to deal with this issue
2019-11-25T07:59:14Z beach: "this code"?
2019-11-25T07:59:17Z phoe: s/this/my/
2019-11-25T07:59:37Z beach: Still, it creates classes with lists as names.
2019-11-25T07:59:58Z beach: And that is a violation of the standard.
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2019-11-25T08:04:17Z jackdaniel: does it though? I'm looking at the code now and it seems that class names are something like
2019-11-25T08:04:25Z jackdaniel: climi::|(presentation-type climi::foo)|
2019-11-25T08:04:41Z beach: Oh, good.
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2019-11-25T08:04:56Z beach: That's a violation of the CLIM II spec, but that's less serious. :)
2019-11-25T08:06:01Z jackdaniel: how is it a violation of clim ii spec?
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2019-11-25T08:06:42Z jackdaniel: if you refer to the first paragraph "defines a presentation type whose name is .." -- I don't read it that presentation name is the same as the class name this presentation is represented with
2019-11-25T08:07:44Z jackdaniel: but of course I've never put much thought into that
2019-11-25T08:08:56Z phoe: "class-name of this class returns a list (presentation-type name)"
2019-11-25T08:09:04Z phoe: from http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/23-3.html#_1145
2019-11-25T08:09:29Z jackdaniel: ah, this part
2019-11-25T08:09:31Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2019-11-25T08:11:34Z phoe: so portable code can *expect* that the values coming from class-name are all symbols
2019-11-25T08:12:04Z phoe: e.g. use DECLARE TYPE or (the symbol (class-name foo))
2019-11-25T08:13:11Z jackdaniel: depends how you define a portable code. if you define it as a code which runs on an implementation which is strictly adhering to ansi standard then yes. if you take that portable code runs on existing implementations then most of them define mop
2019-11-25T08:13:17Z jackdaniel: s/define/implement/
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2019-11-25T08:16:51Z phoe: yes, you are correct
2019-11-25T08:18:59Z phoe: I remember https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1796568
2019-11-25T08:19:21Z phoe: that is if we try to force conses into SBCL's standard class name mechanism
2019-11-25T08:20:36Z pjb: I think we don't use | enough in lisp program.
2019-11-25T08:21:17Z pjb: (defclass |the damn class of all the objects that can talk violet| (|the funny class of talkers| |colored spoken objects|) ()) …
2019-11-25T08:21:36Z pjb: That would make them more readable.
2019-11-25T08:22:43Z phoe: (defclass || () ())
2019-11-25T08:22:47Z pjb: and if you want lists you can always (read-from-string (format nil "(~A)" '|the damn class of all the objects that can talk violet|)) #| --> (the damn class of all the objects that can talk violet) ; 56 |#
2019-11-25T08:23:11Z phoe: ~A won't give you luck when you print compound objects.
2019-11-25T08:23:24Z pjb: or ~S.
2019-11-25T08:23:27Z phoe: (list "a a a" |b b b|)
2019-11-25T08:23:32Z phoe: ~S won't give you lists
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2019-11-25T10:15:06Z phoe: it seems that the #A extension for printing arrays readably works the same across SBCL and ECL/Clasp with one difference in printing order - whether dimensions or element type comes first
2019-11-25T10:15:51Z phoe: since I am looking to implement that extension for CCL, is it also worth to try and unify the way implementations work this way, or do I just pick one of the two sides?
2019-11-25T10:18:17Z beach: I would pick the order that is determined by the type specifier for arrays.
2019-11-25T10:18:41Z beach: Just for consistency.
2019-11-25T10:19:09Z phoe: so element-type and then dimensions
2019-11-25T10:19:33Z beach: Yeah, that's what I would do.
2019-11-25T10:19:37Z phoe: that is consistent with the way ECL/Clasp do it
2019-11-25T10:19:56Z beach: Clasp probably took it from ECL.
2019-11-25T10:20:02Z jackdaniel: I'm sceptical that sbcl will change it
2019-11-25T10:20:08Z phoe: yes, absolutely - that's why I list them together
2019-11-25T10:20:15Z beach: OK.
2019-11-25T10:20:15Z phoe: jackdaniel: so am I (,
2019-11-25T10:20:53Z jackdaniel: that said uniformity here won't buy much
2019-11-25T10:21:10Z jackdaniel: how often do you read forms printed readably on one implementation into another?
2019-11-25T10:21:13Z phoe: yes, it's a big edge case - you'd need to print arrays readably in--
2019-11-25T10:21:15Z phoe: exactly
2019-11-25T10:21:54Z Shinmera: could happen for code generation I guess.
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2019-11-25T10:22:34Z phoe: that wouldn't be fully portable though - arrays are not guaranteed to be printable readably
2019-11-25T10:22:43Z phoe: but then
2019-11-25T10:22:51Z phoe: you'd generate code on one implementation and then load it with the other
2019-11-25T10:23:00Z phoe: sounds like an even more narrow use case
2019-11-25T10:23:31Z Shinmera: stuff like config files would not be weird to r/w from different implementations.
2019-11-25T10:24:32Z phoe: hm, nice point
2019-11-25T10:26:59Z phoe: but you'd need your config files to contain readable specialized arrays at that point
2019-11-25T10:27:09Z phoe: this seems like overkill
2019-11-25T10:27:36Z Shinmera: the user might accidentally or purposefully stick those values into a config structure or whatever.
2019-11-25T10:27:53Z phoe: so your config files would have dumpable structures at that point
2019-11-25T10:28:02Z phoe: that... actually sounds possible
2019-11-25T10:28:31Z jackdaniel: I think that relying on lisp read / write functions to deserialize / serialize config is not a wise strategy
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2019-11-25T10:29:29Z jackdaniel: if you need to store lisp objects then you want a library like cl-store, dumping forms into a file is more a one-time hack for devs
2019-11-25T10:30:38Z jackdaniel: generated code otoh is more likely (vide cl-unicode or magicl)
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2019-11-25T10:33:13Z phoe: how often do you generate code with one implementation and read it with another
2019-11-25T10:33:30Z phoe: and how often may this generated code contain arrays printed readably
2019-11-25T10:33:47Z jackdaniel: ditto, cl-unicode generates its files (only once), magicl has pregenerated ffi definitions to liblapack and such
2019-11-25T10:34:20Z phoe: I'll just follow beach's advice while implementing this for CCL
2019-11-25T10:34:30Z phoe: if it's a non-issue then it is unnecessary to fix it
2019-11-25T10:34:53Z phoe: and if there are no users of it then it's a non-issue
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2019-11-25T10:40:10Z jackdaniel: phoe: what you've put on github is a misquote given what I said above about cl-unicode and magicl which generate code
2019-11-25T10:40:32Z phoe: 11:21 < jackdaniel> how often do you read forms printed readably on one implementation into another?
2019-11-25T10:40:42Z phoe: but let me fix this
2019-11-25T10:41:02Z jackdaniel: I have an impression that you read very selectively (i.e ignore what I've said later)
2019-11-25T10:41:33Z phoe: yes, I have an issue with this - I often miss out on context
2019-11-25T10:42:50Z phoe: OK - I've changed the comment and hope it reflects reality better now.
2019-11-25T10:42:54Z phoe: Sorry about that
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2019-11-25T13:08:25Z lukego: I'm defining data structures for AST nodes. I usually use DEFSTRUCT for each node type, but have the nagging feeling that I should use DEFCLASS, but can't bring myself to do that because DEFCLASS declarations always seem so wordy and redundant. Anybody relate to that feeling? Just live with it? Or is there a DEFCLASS* that I need to start using?
2019-11-25T13:08:50Z lukego: (Haven't Lisped in a while and wondering if it's finally time to get over my aversion to CLOS.)
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2019-11-25T13:09:27Z p_l: lukego: I'd recommend going vanilla, but there are some 3rd-party defclass-star
2019-11-25T13:09:31Z Shinmera: I use multiple cursors or whatever to just write it quicker.
2019-11-25T13:09:50Z p_l: you can also of course type your own macro with your preferences
2019-11-25T13:09:54Z Shinmera: Though if you have a well-defined set of classes that are all similar, writing a specific macro for it is just fine.
2019-11-25T13:11:07Z luis: I like defclass-star (but don't use it very often). Succinct like defstruct, flexible like defclass (obviously).
2019-11-25T13:11:39Z lukego: p_l: Thanks :)
2019-11-25T13:11:53Z lukego: Next question. Is there something wrong with me if I don't use paredit-mode?
2019-11-25T13:12:07Z luis: Yes and no.
2019-11-25T13:12:10Z luis: But mostly yes.
2019-11-25T13:12:17Z lukego: Roger that :)
2019-11-25T13:12:19Z Shinmera: It's worth getting into it I'd say.
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2019-11-25T13:12:44Z p_l: lukego: to be honest I often disable paredit and the like :D
2019-11-25T13:12:55Z p_l: always managed to screw myself into place that was hard to leave
2019-11-25T13:13:11Z p_l: (insert "DRRRR" :repeat 5)
2019-11-25T13:13:36Z p_l: also nice to see you lisping again :)
2019-11-25T13:14:34Z Shinmera: p_l: copy paste is not governed by paredit, which is useful for getting it back into a stable state without having to deactivate it.
2019-11-25T13:15:35Z luis: Paredit eliminates that silly step at the end of writing a bit of code where you make sure parenthesis match up properly. If you use electric-indent-mode you can even get rid of the make-sure-your-code-is-properly-indented step. (Although that step is pretty quick with M-q paredit-reindent-defun.)
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2019-11-25T13:15:47Z p_l: Shinmera: it's also an excellent way to get it to state where it gives up counting parens. I know there's a chord to type parens disregarding paredit state, but I a) never remember it b) never got fluent enough with structural editing to gain much benefit
2019-11-25T13:15:50Z p_l: *yet*
2019-11-25T13:16:13Z p_l: I'm working now on my structural editing chops, then I will enable paredit :)
2019-11-25T13:16:24Z Shinmera: I pretty much only use slurp/barf/convolute in paredit. Same for Slime, my fu is really weak in general.
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2019-11-25T13:16:50Z Shinmera: But it's enough to be useful
2019-11-25T13:16:57Z p_l: yeah, same here. Just found that electric indent and electric parens work better for me now
2019-11-25T13:17:15Z p_l: I need to spend some "me" time (what's that?) to redo my computer setup in general
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2019-11-25T13:17:53Z luis: Shinmera: interesting. I think what I use the most is splice (M-s), raise, (M-r) and kill (C-k and C-M-k)
2019-11-25T13:18:02Z lukego: Thanks p_l it's nice to be lisping again too :). Seems like every time I start working on a project I think "Hey I wonder if I could do this in Lisp" but usually not due to some constraint. Just now I want to make up a DSL and write a transpiler onto diverse targets and Lisp seems like a great fit.
2019-11-25T13:18:34Z p_l: lukego: do I recall right that you spent some time in Smalltalk/Pharo land recently?
2019-11-25T13:18:36Z Shinmera: luis: Oh yeah, splice, too. And kill I didn't even think about being a paredit thing but I use it too.
2019-11-25T13:19:32Z lukego: p_l: Yeah. Spending some time doing Smalltalk really helped to remind that I'm a Lisper at heart :)
2019-11-25T13:19:37Z p_l: :)
2019-11-25T13:20:28Z lukego: and also to appreciate the value of a stable base. Pharo's GToolkit has more momentum than McCLIM but it is kind of "angular momentum" going around in circles rewriting all the code I am trying to build on :)
2019-11-25T13:21:23Z lukego: (I'm not going to rewrite that Smalltalk code in Lisp though, it does work :))
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2019-11-25T13:21:58Z p_l: I'm kinda in market to find a good GUI library, unfortunately for reasons McCLIM is out :<
2019-11-25T13:22:10Z lukego: I think that I'll probably focus more on text and Emacs for new UIs for a while.
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2019-11-25T13:22:24Z Shinmera has been working on a new toolkit and starts to sweat profusely
2019-11-25T13:23:33Z p_l: lukego: my issues are that I don't even *imagine* a way to get a11y into CLIM
2019-11-25T13:23:54Z p_l: like, how do I create the UI Graph to expose to external walker?
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2019-11-25T13:24:07Z p_l: in a way that doesn't break any typical use of CLIM
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2019-11-25T13:24:58Z p_l: (might involve interposer between interface side and backend side, but then I have no idea how to augment CLIM interfaces with usable metadata)
2019-11-25T13:25:24Z p_l: using emacs as interface is positively simple in that :)
2019-11-25T13:26:08Z beach: p_l: If you need information about CLIM and McCLIM, the best place is #clim.  The nice people there would be happy to help you out with your question.  You can still ask here of course.
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2019-11-25T13:26:53Z p_l: beach: I tried in the past - I gave up when I figured out *I* could not describe it properly, so I was back to drawing board in terms of "how do I explain what I need" :)
2019-11-25T13:27:04Z beach: I see.
2019-11-25T13:27:36Z p_l: for immediate use cases, Qt and GTK+ have hooks for accessibility defined and implemented, though I'm wary of anything from GNOME.
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2019-11-25T13:28:04Z p_l: but just explaining it feels non-trivial, and if I can't explain right, I can't expect anyone to understand, right?
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2019-11-25T13:28:46Z shka__: p_l: i have the same feeling with clim
2019-11-25T13:28:49Z beach: lukego: As it turns out, it is unusual to want the same iniforms, initargs, readers, and writers for each slot, so the verbosity is usually needed.  Unless, of course you are using your classes as simple containers with named slots.
2019-11-25T13:29:08Z shka__: i grew so used to model-viewer-controler that anything other seems weird
2019-11-25T13:29:26Z beach: shka__: CLIM is a prime example of that model.
2019-11-25T13:29:49Z beach: shka__: Except this is Common Lisp, so you don't have to program it explicitly the way you do in most other languages.
2019-11-25T13:30:03Z shka__: eh, ok
2019-11-25T13:31:02Z shka__: this makes me even more confused ;-)
2019-11-25T13:31:08Z lukego: beach: Thanks for the comment. Could be that I'm using the same pattern over and over again not because it's appropriate but due to intellectual laziness. I'll see if I can apply some more thought and creativity to my DEFCLASS declarations and that might solve my problem :)
2019-11-25T13:32:20Z lukego: (This is some pretty nuclear grade procrastination I'm doing now. "Let's write some code. But should I re-evaluate my feelings about DEFCLASS first? Is it finally time to learn paredit?" But I'll just embrace that for now :-))
2019-11-25T13:32:31Z splittist: lukego: there was (is?) redshank, an emacs extension built on paredit that provided, amongst other things, DEFCLASS support
2019-11-25T13:32:40Z p_l: this reminds me of my confusion on pass-by-reference/pass-by-value which I need to distill somewhere into a cheatsheet
2019-11-25T13:32:42Z lukego: hey splittist!
2019-11-25T13:33:46Z lukego will try redshank once he gets comfortable with paredit
2019-11-25T13:33:46Z splittist: Tjenamårs tjenamårs!
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2019-11-25T13:35:01Z beach: Heh.
2019-11-25T13:35:50Z beach: p_l: I am sorry to hear that you have difficulties understanding CLIM.  It would have been great to have you as a user.
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2019-11-25T13:36:10Z p_l: beach: it's less about understanding CLIM itself for, let's say, my own use
2019-11-25T13:36:25Z beach: I see.
2019-11-25T13:36:29Z p_l: But I've been trying to consider users other than myself, including blind or otherwise vision impaired
2019-11-25T13:36:38Z beach: OK.
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2019-11-25T13:39:28Z p_l: and unfortunately CLIM missed the development in that area, for understandable reasons, so anything that involves integrating with screenreaders for example will require fresh work, and that's where I get confused :)
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2019-11-25T13:40:04Z p_l: pity I can't devote more resources for that, because I think it's pretty important area to cover in CLIM, and I would like to have more GUI options :)
2019-11-25T13:42:11Z jackdaniel: there are so many gui options, how is that it is so hard to find something satisfying to work with? :)
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2019-11-25T13:42:37Z p_l: jackdaniel: because so many of them have so many caveats, and I would like to work with CL where possible
2019-11-25T13:42:52Z p_l: so for example GTK+ is out due to multiplatform issues and instability
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2019-11-25T13:44:20Z jackdaniel: all technology is flawed one way or another, so either you build in something and work around all quirks or you sit waiting for technology which will never come (or write your own solution which will be flawed as well)
2019-11-25T13:45:40Z jackdaniel: it is like refusing to act because world is not perfect - stance admittedly taken by some people
2019-11-25T13:46:48Z p_l: jackdaniel: yeah, that's what I am not doing, the closest thing to doing what I want *right now* is Qt, so I've been working on getting usable CommonQt setup to use on all three platforms I have at home (linux, windows, and unfortunately a mac)
2019-11-25T13:47:20Z p_l: Also went down the rabbit hole to see what would be needed to update CommonQT for QT5
2019-11-25T13:47:51Z Shinmera: p_l: Have you talked to Stas yet?
2019-11-25T13:48:28Z p_l: unfortunately it feels like all code for C++ interaction in various bindings is very language specific, so I might end up writing a common lisp C++ binding generator first -_-
2019-11-25T13:48:33Z p_l: Shinmera: no, unfortunately not
2019-11-25T13:48:33Z jackdaniel: did I mention that EQL5 works on IOS now? apparently remaining issues got fixed
2019-11-25T13:48:57Z p_l: jackdaniel: EQL is nice and dandy, but I need something that isn't bound to one implementation
2019-11-25T13:49:22Z p_l: partially because I am trying to work on stuff to enable more people than myself ;)
2019-11-25T13:49:32Z trittweiler: lukego, I prefer defstruct to defclass because the `:type`s end up in the ftype of the slot accessors which means that sbcl type-checks at compile time, and you get a sensible default print-object method by default.  You can use generic functions with structures just fine (as you know). So unless I want mixins, defstruct is my preferred go-to.
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2019-11-25T13:50:03Z jackdaniel: I'm sure people doesn't give a rat ass whether their application runs on (given it is performant enough and looks the same)
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2019-11-25T13:50:57Z jackdaniel: be it C++ or CL
2019-11-25T13:51:15Z p_l: jackdaniel: I'm trying to make it work for more people than myself *as a developer*
2019-11-25T13:51:35Z p_l: and as much as I love ECL, EQL binds me too much
2019-11-25T13:52:08Z p_l: GTK means macos sucks. Yes, for internal tool its fine, so is using CCL w/ Obj-C bridge
2019-11-25T13:52:11Z jackdaniel: I've just mentioned IOS because it is a fresh thing, not to suggest it. good luck with finding your preferred technology
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2019-11-25T13:52:45Z p_l: jackdaniel: In case you missed it, I've already went down the path "closest to working as I want it" :)
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2019-11-25T13:53:27Z jackdaniel: you've mentioned that you are working on making it usable on a few platforms, so I inferred you are struggling with it right now
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2019-11-25T13:53:52Z jackdaniel: (and then you've suggested that you want to make another pivot to QT5 when possible)
2019-11-25T13:53:56Z p_l: jackdaniel: I've had issues getting commonqt working on macOS, phoe had been a help there
2019-11-25T13:54:15Z p_l: the pivot to QT5 is for later, because let's face the fact, Qt4 is not supported anymore
2019-11-25T13:54:32Z luis: p_l: I've been thinking about how to interact with C++ too, for Qt5 too. libclang with something along the lines of dragonffi seems promising.
2019-11-25T13:54:52Z p_l: luis: I've been thinking of using libclang for generating the bindings only
2019-11-25T13:56:11Z luis: I think it might be useful for generating calls to all sorts of C++-specific stuff. Invoking the compiler would take care of all sorts of stuff like preprocessor macros, templates, etc. (I think.)
2019-11-25T13:56:22Z p_l: yep
2019-11-25T13:56:42Z p_l: I just want to avoid dependency on clang for runtime
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2019-11-25T13:57:14Z p_l: something like a "clang-grovel" package
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2019-11-25T13:58:39Z p_l: reminds me I need to fix my scripts to build static ECL on Alpine
2019-11-25T13:59:23Z luis: p_l: c2ffi does part of the grovelling job. Where do you plan to store the glue code?
2019-11-25T14:01:18Z p_l: luis: Still working on it, but generally an extension to ASDF that could spin up separate instance to run the glue code generation and compilation, + code to handle bundling the libs
2019-11-25T14:02:15Z luis: p_l: but would you store that glue in a .c file, as LLVM bitcode, as binary blob?
2019-11-25T14:03:04Z p_l: luis: two options, as big C file (or maybe a dir of C files?) + makefile, and as ready-to-load shared object
2019-11-25T14:03:22Z p_l: the former is for cases where you need some more mangling (like embedding into one binary)
2019-11-25T14:04:04Z luis: p_l: in that case, doesn't SWIG already do what you want, maybe?
2019-11-25T14:05:24Z p_l: luis: SWIG isn't good enough at parsing C++, not to mention QT extensions to C++
2019-11-25T14:05:45Z p_l: but it's kinda inspiration, as I have used SWIG in the past with CFFI target
2019-11-25T14:05:59Z luis: They're recently removed CFFI support from SWIG, sadly.
2019-11-25T14:06:04Z p_l: :<
2019-11-25T14:06:27Z p_l: then even more important to handle it
2019-11-25T14:07:07Z luis: p_l: how does generating a big blob of C code help you, say, subclass a C++ class?
2019-11-25T14:07:53Z p_l: luis: said C blob would have the necessary interface points to do subclassing, think pre-made abstract subclasses
2019-11-25T14:08:35Z p_l: the C part is to get around the shittiness of C++ linking, and would essentially be a dump of what clang would construct packaged in a way that is consumable
2019-11-25T14:08:36Z luis: Overriding every possible method, right. That's what SMOKE does, I think.
2019-11-25T14:08:41Z p_l: yep
2019-11-25T14:09:33Z luis: p_l: have you looked at Qt for Python's Shiboken?
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2019-11-25T14:11:14Z p_l: luis: yep
2019-11-25T14:11:29Z luis: p_l: what did you learn?
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2019-11-25T14:16:05Z p_l: that I'll need to write from scratch it seems
2019-11-25T14:16:19Z p_l: Shiboken is deeply intertwined with Python runtime
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2019-11-25T14:25:09Z luis: p_l: are you using rpav's c2ffi? I'm very curious, in case you can't tell. Also, have you seen <https://github.com/KDE/smokeqt/tree/Qt5v2>?
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2019-11-25T14:28:27Z p_l: I haven't seen c2ffi, and somehow I missed that smokeqt repo - smoke had been badly documented across KDE pages
2019-11-25T14:29:40Z luis: p_l: c2ffi uses libclang to extract definitions. cl-autowrap (and cffi/c2cffi) then use that to generate bindings.
2019-11-25T14:30:05Z p_l: sounds like good starting point, I wouldn't mind improving existing code instead of tooting my own horn
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2019-11-25T14:37:28Z luis: p_l: so, my idea was to try and emulate what dragonffi is able to do: compile C/C++ snippets at runtime and then invoke them, maybe using something like parenscript for C++. My thinking there is that this would eliminate the need for generating bindings, or exhaustive bindings, anyway. You can just call random C/C++ code and the compiler will type-
2019-11-25T14:37:28Z luis: check it for you. You raise a good point about not depending on libclang upon delivery though. I don't have an answer for that yet.
2019-11-25T14:37:42Z ebrasca: Do you have some recomendations on how to host multiple domains in common lisp?
2019-11-25T14:38:23Z p_l: ebrasca: domains in what sense? Web domains? I think it's something that can be handled in handler in Hunchentoot or Clack (match on `Host` header)
2019-11-25T14:38:56Z p_l: I usually handle matching services to domains at LB and don't handle Host header in services at all
2019-11-25T14:39:24Z p_l: i.e. one backend TCP port = one service that doesn't have variation
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2019-11-25T14:40:38Z phoe: ebrasca: I use haproxy as my internal router that handles HTTPS. It then routes internal HTTP traffic over to Lisp services.
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2019-11-25T14:45:07Z ebrasca: I like Hunchentoot , is it hard to manage more than 1 web page with diferent domain names?
2019-11-25T14:46:01Z ebrasca: p_l: yea Web domains
2019-11-25T14:46:48Z p_l: ebrasca: I'd recommend setting separate handlers for each "application" or "website", then using an external service (for example nginx in proxy mode) to handle the frontend
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2019-11-25T14:52:32Z ebrasca: p_l: Do you recomend lxc + hunchentoot + nginx ?
2019-11-25T14:54:29Z p_l: I haven't used LXC for years, to be quite honest. For this case I'd use something closer to Docker (though podman might be better as runtime, but that's details you might not need right now) + external load balancer
2019-11-25T14:54:38Z p_l: I have used HAproxy and nginx in that role
2019-11-25T14:55:08Z p_l: bit hard for me to recommend because I don't know the rest of your environment and I have preferences that lean on the high-end side that I usually deal with
2019-11-25T14:55:45Z p_l: (I host something like ~250 domain, with ~1000 mappings, on single IP address, for one of my clients)
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2019-11-25T14:57:46Z vsync: auuuugggggghhhhhh... only just thought to check, and dolist has an implicit tagbody
2019-11-25T14:58:08Z ebrasca: p_l: I am starting , If I manage this correctly I am going to have my first client.
2019-11-25T14:58:16Z vsync: I wonder how much time this would have saved over the years, and how much of that was convolutions out of over-preciousness
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2019-11-25T14:59:12Z Xach: vsync: i don't mean to alarm you but so does DOTIMES!
2019-11-25T14:59:40Z p_l: ebrasca: for starters, setup nginx with proxy configs (there's a lot of tutorials, and you can subcontract for a starting config ;) ) + running the sites on separate ports, maybe even as separate services (using runit or systemd to start them)
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2019-11-25T15:00:32Z p_l: ebrasca: you should also consider creating a way to "poke" the application to verify it's in usable state and hook that into nginx so it can redirect to an error page if for any reason you need to take an app down
2019-11-25T15:01:12Z lukego: I've enabled `slime-company' package but so far it's only offered me completions once...
2019-11-25T15:05:45Z ebrasca: p_l: With "separate services" do you mean diferent sbcl instances?
2019-11-25T15:08:45Z phoe: could be one instance but running several acceptors on different ports
2019-11-25T15:10:35Z p_l: ebrasca: I recommend separate instances for things that are logically separate, in case you need to do something weird with them
2019-11-25T15:10:47Z p_l: remove single points of failure kind of things
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2019-11-25T15:23:33Z phoe: What should be printed when (print-unreadable-object (nil *standard-output* :type t :identity nil)) is evaluated?
2019-11-25T15:23:50Z lukego: I'm trying to `C-)' in paredit but all Emacs is getting is plain old 0. Maybe because I'm running Emacs over ssh in a terminal? Any workaround?
2019-11-25T15:24:18Z phoe: #<NULL >?
2019-11-25T15:24:45Z phoe: The CLHS says this: If type is true, the output from forms is preceded by a brief description of the object's type and a space character.
2019-11-25T15:24:48Z phoe: So #<NULL > seems consistent.
2019-11-25T15:25:26Z Bike: yeah, sure.
2019-11-25T15:25:51Z Bike: oh, ccl elides the space. i don't think it matters though.
2019-11-25T15:25:55Z phoe: it does
2019-11-25T15:25:59Z phoe: there is an ANSI-TEST for that®
2019-11-25T15:26:25Z Bike: seems like a pointless ansi test
2019-11-25T15:27:42Z phoe: well, it does test the specified behaviour
2019-11-25T15:28:23Z phoe: even if this behaviour is silly in my opinion
2019-11-25T15:31:01Z Xach: lukego: i don't know, sorry. i usually use C-right for that.
2019-11-25T15:31:56Z Xach: lukego: i've had similar trouble when running through screen, but it produces a sequence of control characters that come out wrong. so i bind those codes in my .emacs to make things work.
2019-11-25T15:32:13Z Xach: if it's just producing 0 that's not a good solution
2019-11-25T15:32:43Z lukego: Yeah `M-x view-lossage' is only showing it as a plain 0. Maybe I will use this as an excuse to not learn paredit-mode today.
2019-11-25T15:32:57Z Xach: noooo! paredit mode is mycket bra
2019-11-25T15:33:17Z p_l: lukego: what terminal?
2019-11-25T15:34:14Z lukego: I'm using iTerm2 on macOS and talking to Emacs via ssh and tmux. (ugh.) I'm planning to switch to Linux desktop in a few weeks so maybe I'll kick the can until then.
2019-11-25T15:34:38Z p_l: lukego: check preferences on how the keys are passed through
2019-11-25T15:34:51Z p_l: I'm forced to use mac for work so I can commisserate
2019-11-25T15:35:42Z ebrasca: phoe: Why haproxy instead of nginx?
2019-11-25T15:36:34Z phoe: ebrasca: either or
2019-11-25T15:37:55Z ebrasca: phoe: I don't undestand what do you mean with "either or".
2019-11-25T15:38:05Z phoe: ebrasca: either haproxy or nginx, no big difference
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2019-11-25T15:39:59Z vsync: if I decrease the fill pointer of an array, then increase it again, is there any risk the elements hidden in that interval will disappear?
2019-11-25T15:40:29Z Shinmera: no
2019-11-25T15:40:50Z Shinmera: if anything decreasing the fill pointer and not clearing out the elements can be a memory leak.
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2019-11-25T15:41:33Z Fade: lukego: I've found inconsistent results using emacs/slime over ssh to a session suspended in a terminal multiplexer. does it still happen if you take tmux out of the stack?
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2019-11-25T15:42:40Z Fade: I readily admit that OSX keybinds don't always behave as expected.
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2019-11-25T15:43:16Z lukego: Fade: seems the same
2019-11-25T15:43:35Z Fade: well, that was my guess.
2019-11-25T15:43:36Z lukego: Guess I'll revisit this when I'm "linux native." I might run Emacs locally instead of via ssh then.
2019-11-25T15:43:51Z Fade: if you have ssh, you could just use tramp.
2019-11-25T15:44:19Z davepdotorg: FWIW, macOS and iTerm2: if I emacs -nw locally and try C-0 I just get a self-insert command on 0, so that would seem to eliminate most things along that chain.
2019-11-25T15:44:35Z Shinmera: lukego: You could give Portacle a shot. https://portacle.github.io/#get-mac
2019-11-25T15:46:54Z lukego: Shinmera: Thanks but I'm over the whole Mac thing and looking forward to putting it behind me.
2019-11-25T15:47:08Z Fade: I know that feeling well.
2019-11-25T15:47:12Z Shinmera: Heh
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2019-11-25T15:51:42Z p_l: getting emacsclient to work the way I'm used to is getting me insane on mac :/
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2019-11-25T16:26:40Z phoe: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/blob/master/printer/print-structure.lsp#L22
2019-11-25T16:26:43Z phoe: Is this line valid?
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2019-11-25T16:27:11Z phoe: This is supposed to read in the form #S(print-struct-1 :foo 1 :bar 2) with standard IO syntax
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2019-11-25T16:28:38Z phoe: but standard IO syntax means that *package* is set to CL-USER
2019-11-25T16:29:28Z phoe: and there might be some package silliness going on
2019-11-25T16:30:42Z Bike: well, the string is written while *package* is set to cl-user too
2019-11-25T16:30:49Z Bike: so both the write and read should include the package prefix, no?
2019-11-25T16:31:14Z Bike: oh wait, escape nil
2019-11-25T16:31:21Z Bike: hmmmmmmmmm i dunno
2019-11-25T16:31:54Z Bike: i'd just rebind *package* within the with-standard-io-syntax body
2019-11-25T16:31:59Z Bike: thinking is too hard
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2019-11-25T16:36:53Z phoe: blah
2019-11-25T16:36:56Z phoe takes a break
2019-11-25T16:37:37Z Bike: clhs #s
2019-11-25T16:37:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhm.htm
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2019-11-25T18:36:32Z phoe: Bike: yes, the symbol name should be printed with package prefix
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2019-11-25T18:55:39Z kpoeck: phoe I don't see a problem with the test
2019-11-25T18:55:54Z kpoeck: (car vals) is cl-test::print-struct-1
2019-11-25T18:56:31Z kpoeck: (eq (car vals) 'print-struct-1) is true, with (in-package :cl-test)
2019-11-25T18:57:01Z Bike: why is it read as being in the cl-test package?
2019-11-25T18:59:43Z kpoeck: The read-from-string is being executed in cl-user
2019-11-25T19:00:00Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2019-11-25T19:00:10Z kpoeck: but the compiled test is compiled in file with (in-package :cl-test)
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2019-11-25T19:00:34Z kpoeck: So 'print-struct-1 is 'cl-test::print-struct-1
2019-11-25T19:00:46Z kpoeck: at least so my reasoning
2019-11-25T19:00:49Z Bike: yes, the symbol in the code is in the cl-test package, that's not the issue
2019-11-25T19:01:07Z Bike: the printing is done in the cl-user package, and without print-escape or print-readably so there should be no symbol prefix in the text
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2019-11-25T19:01:15Z Bike: package prefix in the printed text*
2019-11-25T19:01:30Z kpoeck: I just tested in clasp, and there is a symbol-prefix
2019-11-25T19:02:25Z Bike: (defpackage "CL-TEST" (:use)) (write 'cl-test::foo :escape nil :readably nil) => FOO here
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2019-11-25T19:04:13Z kpoeck: (in-package :core)
2019-11-25T19:04:20Z kpoeck: (defstruct boo a b)
2019-11-25T19:04:27Z kpoeck: (defparameter foo (make-boo :a 23 :b 24))
2019-11-25T19:04:35Z kpoeck: (with-standard-io-syntax (write-to-string foo :readably nil :case :upcase :escape nil))
2019-11-25T19:04:43Z kpoeck: "#S(CORE::BOO :A 23 :B 24)"
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2019-11-25T19:05:52Z kpoeck: I believe this is what the test that phoe quoted does
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2019-11-25T19:07:57Z phoe: kpoeck: my Travis test tells me that this test fails on CCL
2019-11-25T19:08:15Z phoe: the struct name is printed without the package qualifier
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2019-11-25T19:09:32Z Bike: (with-standard-io-syntax (write (list 'cl-test::foo (cl-test::make-foo)) :escape nil :readably nil :case :upcase)) prints (FOO #S(CL-TEST::FOO)) in my clasp
2019-11-25T19:09:35Z Bike: that seems wweird
2019-11-25T19:10:15Z Bike: same behavior in sbcl though. hrm.
2019-11-25T19:10:38Z phoe: maybe let us start from the beginning - is the test testing what is mentioned in the spec
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2019-11-25T19:10:52Z phoe: readably is NIL, escape is NIL
2019-11-25T19:11:11Z phoe: and we are printing symbols, one of them raw, the other as a struct name
2019-11-25T19:11:16Z phoe: should we print package qualifiers?
2019-11-25T19:11:27Z phoe: 22.1.3.3.1 http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/22_acca.htm
2019-11-25T19:11:35Z kpoeck: Thats correct, just manually verified
2019-11-25T19:11:42Z phoe:   When the symbol is printed, if it is in the KEYWORD package, then it is printed with a preceding colon; otherwise, if it is accessible in the current package, it is printed without any package prefix; otherwise, it is printed with a package prefix.
2019-11-25T19:11:49Z Bike: clasp uses prin1 to print the class name, so it overrides the escape setting from outside
2019-11-25T19:12:22Z Bike: same for sbcl.
2019-11-25T19:12:34Z phoe: similar for CCL
2019-11-25T19:12:47Z phoe: (write-to-string (cl-test::make-blah) :readably nil :case :upcase :escape nil) ;=> "#S(BLAH)"
2019-11-25T19:12:53Z kpoeck: but the current package is cl-user
2019-11-25T19:12:57Z phoe: yes, I am in CL-USER
2019-11-25T19:13:05Z kpoeck: so its nor accessible
2019-11-25T19:13:12Z kpoeck: not accessible
2019-11-25T19:13:15Z Bike: yes, but escape and readably are nil, so there is no prefix.
2019-11-25T19:13:35Z Bike: this is up a section in 22.1.3.3
2019-11-25T19:13:39Z phoe: so why is there a prefix on the symbol when it is printed alone
2019-11-25T19:13:45Z Bike: there's not.
2019-11-25T19:13:55Z phoe: oh wait a second
2019-11-25T19:14:02Z Bike: like i said, what i see is (FOO #S(CL-TEST::FOO))
2019-11-25T19:14:06Z phoe: yes
2019-11-25T19:14:19Z phoe: so there should be no prefix printed in the struct name, correct?
2019-11-25T19:14:26Z Bike: dunno.
2019-11-25T19:14:44Z Bike: i don't see anything saying it's printed abnormally, and if printed the same as everything else there shouldn't be a prefix.
2019-11-25T19:14:59Z phoe: once again: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/blob/master/printer/print-structure.lsp#L22
2019-11-25T19:15:00Z Bike: clhs 22.1.3.12
2019-11-25T19:15:00Z specbot: Printing Structures: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_acl.htm
2019-11-25T19:15:05Z phoe: this is the line that fails on CCL for me
2019-11-25T19:15:19Z Bike: well you said (write-to-string (cl-test::make-blah) :readably nil :case :upcase :escape nil) ;=> "#S(BLAH)"
2019-11-25T19:15:32Z Bike: that's not what i'm seeing on clasp or sbcl. presumably ccl's method doesn't prin1 in the same way
2019-11-25T19:16:03Z Bike: ccl doesn't seem to have a print-object method on structure-object, so i dunno where that would be defined
2019-11-25T19:16:41Z phoe: Bike: defmethod print-object ((object t) stream)
2019-11-25T19:16:45Z phoe: l1-io.lisp
2019-11-25T19:16:58Z phoe: defun write-a-structure
2019-11-25T19:17:23Z Bike: well that's weird
2019-11-25T19:17:58Z phoe: I know, right
2019-11-25T19:18:10Z Bike: ccl uses write-a-symbol to write the class name
2019-11-25T19:18:17Z Bike: seems to be what it uses for symbols normally?
2019-11-25T19:18:24Z Bike: so no special bindings like with prin1.
2019-11-25T19:18:37Z kpoeck: write-a-symbol
2019-11-25T19:18:44Z kpoeck: oops, as bike just said
2019-11-25T19:19:05Z phoe: write-a-symbol has checks for *print-readably* and *print-escape* though
2019-11-25T19:19:14Z phoe: so special bindings are in effect there
2019-11-25T19:20:11Z Bike: no i mean it doesn't set bindings
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2019-11-25T19:20:18Z Bike: like prin1 binds print-escape or whatever. ccl isn't doing that.
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2019-11-25T19:20:25Z Bike: it's just reacting to existing bindings normally.
2019-11-25T19:20:35Z phoe: oh yes, that is correct
2019-11-25T19:21:08Z kpoeck: yes
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2019-11-25T19:22:42Z kpoeck: Bike: are you saying that the test is wrong and only ccl does it right?
2019-11-25T19:23:24Z kpoeck: This (FOO #S(CL-TEST::FOO)) looks sort of strange
2019-11-25T19:23:44Z Bike: i guess? i'm not sure why the structure class name would be treated ddifferently, is all
2019-11-25T19:23:47Z phoe: the assertion fails because (CAR VALS) is CL-USER::PRINT-STRUCT-1
2019-11-25T19:24:06Z phoe: so the read symbol is interned in the CL-USER packace
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2019-11-25T19:24:26Z Bike: sbcl's done prin1 since its initial revision, so i \got nothin there
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2019-11-25T19:25:20Z phoe: but this is weird
2019-11-25T19:25:41Z phoe: SBCL prints a package prefix in there even with :readably nil and :escape nil
2019-11-25T19:25:52Z phoe: from the test body I can infer that this is the correct behaviour
2019-11-25T19:25:53Z Bike: because it does prin1.
2019-11-25T19:26:08Z phoe: because otherwise READ would read a symbol in the current package which is CL-USER which fails the test
2019-11-25T19:26:21Z phoe: so with :readably nil and :escape nil we would still need to print the package prefix
2019-11-25T19:26:35Z phoe: is this correct?
2019-11-25T19:26:43Z Bike: listen. sbcl treats the structure class name specially. it uses prin1 to print it, so the outside readability and escape settings are discarded.
2019-11-25T19:26:49Z Bike: this is part of its print-object method.
2019-11-25T19:27:01Z Bike: i don't know if that's the correct behavior but that is its behavior.
2019-11-25T19:27:14Z phoe: OK - I understand it this far.
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2019-11-25T19:27:30Z phoe: My original question is about the test and spec, not about SBCL.
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2019-11-25T19:27:35Z Bike: ansi-test apparently expects this behavior.
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2019-11-25T19:27:41Z Bike: i don't see anything in the spec mandating it though.
2019-11-25T19:27:53Z phoe: so the question is why does the test expect this
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2019-11-25T19:28:11Z phoe: and I don't feel like forcing to let Paul dig up his memories from fifteen years ago again
2019-11-25T19:28:18Z phoe: s/to let //
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2019-11-25T19:28:26Z phoe: s/dig/to dig/
2019-11-25T19:29:32Z phoe: 22.1.3.3.1 says, When the symbol is printed, if it is in the KEYWORD package, then it is printed with a preceding colon; otherwise, if it is accessible in the current package, it is printed without any package prefix; otherwise, it is printed with a package prefix.
2019-11-25T19:29:44Z phoe: and this seems not to be overridden by anything else on the same page
2019-11-25T19:30:48Z phoe: ...a confusing next sentence though
2019-11-25T19:30:50Z phoe: A symbol that is apparently uninterned is printed preceded by ``#:'' if *print-gensym* is true and printer escaping is enabled; if *print-gensym* is false or printer escaping is disabled, then the symbol is printed without a prefix, as if it were in the current package.
2019-11-25T19:30:58Z phoe: the part "if *print-gensym* is false or printer escaping is disabled, then the symbol is printed without a prefix, as if it were in the current package. "
2019-11-25T19:31:13Z phoe: does "the symbol" mean the symbol being printed, or that gensym that was just mentioned
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2019-11-25T19:32:29Z phoe: since I think it means the gensym that was just mentioned, being on the same paragraph and all
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2019-11-25T19:33:47Z Bike: none of that stuff should matter. the second sentence of 22.1.3.3 says the rest of the section doesn't apply unless printer escaping is enabled
2019-11-25T19:34:31Z phoe: why the hell does the test require that a symbol read with standard IO syntax be in CL-TEST package and not in CL-USER
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2019-11-25T19:34:47Z phoe: printer escaping is disabled, so we only output the symbol name
2019-11-25T19:35:25Z phoe: and we read in CL-USER and get a symbol from CL-USER
2019-11-25T19:36:10Z phoe: please correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems like an invalid assertion
2019-11-25T19:36:35Z Bike: like i said, i don't see anything saying the structure class name is necessarily printed with the prefix.
2019-11-25T19:36:40Z phoe: and we'd need to also bind *package* to CL-TEST inside WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX
2019-11-25T19:36:45Z phoe: Bike: neither do I
2019-11-25T19:36:56Z phoe: it's just printed as a symbol, so the same way all symbols are printed
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2019-11-25T19:38:35Z kpoeck: My last input: In 22.1.3.3 Printing Symbols it says ...The remainder of Section 22.1.3.3 applies only when printer escaping is enabled
2019-11-25T19:38:42Z phoe: yes, that is correct
2019-11-25T19:38:59Z phoe: and the test explicitly writes the string with printer escaping *disabled*
2019-11-25T19:39:21Z kpoeck: so whatever is specified in 22.1.3.3.1 Package Prefixes for Symbols is irrelevant
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2019-11-25T19:39:46Z kpoeck: So for me, the test is wrong, ccl is right and clasp and sbcl get it wrong
2019-11-25T19:40:16Z Bike: well, i don't know, it might be ok to print the prefix for the structure class name, i just don't see anything saying it HAS to
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2019-11-25T19:41:53Z kpoeck: so for me the solution is to change the test to: (assert (or (eq (car vals) 'print-struct-1)            (eq (car vals) 'cl-user::'print-struct-1)))
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2019-11-25T19:42:15Z kpoeck: oops just 1 quote, but you know what I mean
2019-11-25T19:43:12Z kpoeck: (assert (or (eq (car vals) 'print-struct-1)            (eq (car vals) 'cl-user::print-struct-1)))
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2019-11-25T19:48:21Z phoe: kpoeck: a test that interns stuff into CL-USER seems somewhat dirty
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2019-11-25T19:58:44Z kpoeck: (let ((symbol (car vals)))        (assert (and (string-equal (symbol-name (car vals)) "print-struct-1")                 (or (eql (symbol-package symbol) (find-package :cl-user))                     (eql (symbol-package symbol)(find-package :cl-test))))))
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2019-11-25T20:04:17Z Bike: just bind *package* to cl-test in the standard io syntax form
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2019-11-25T20:06:04Z phoe: that is what I want to do
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2019-11-25T20:28:40Z phoe: done and MR'd
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2019-11-25T20:41:26Z kpoeck: You might want to update the description
2019-11-25T20:41:34Z kpoeck: The test calls read-from-string, not read
2019-11-25T20:42:27Z phoe: kpoeck: the behaviour doesn't matter in this case but you are correct
2019-11-25T20:42:39Z phoe: as in, both READ and READ-FROM-STRING would intern in CL-USER
2019-11-25T20:42:48Z phoe: updated the commit message
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2019-11-26T04:22:17Z anlsh: Has anyone tried Nils Holm's "Lisp System Implementation"?
2019-11-26T04:22:48Z no-defun-allowed: I think beach bought the book, and he is usually around soon-ish.
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2019-11-26T05:10:58Z anlsh: beach: I've been told you bought the "Lisp System Implementation" book?
2019-11-26T05:14:09Z no-defun-allowed: Or if I check the logs, maybe someone else has mentioned it.
2019-11-26T05:14:45Z anlsh: Where can I find the logs?
2019-11-26T05:15:35Z no-defun-allowed: I looked at https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?from=2018-11-26T00%3A14%3A11&to=2019-11-26T12%3A14%3A11&search=Lisp%20System%20Implementation&by#
2019-11-26T05:22:04Z anlsh: Thanks! Seems like the discussion hasn't been extensive, so I'll have to try to catch beach sometime
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2019-11-26T05:34:25Z ebrasca: aeth: I have installed sbcl on my talos II, but I can't make it work with multithreading.
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2019-11-26T05:44:21Z holycow: .
2019-11-26T05:44:57Z ebrasca: holycow: I remember he likes to test someting in talos II.
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2019-11-26T05:47:04Z holycow: hi ebrasca, i am pretty sure you meant someone else :)
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2019-11-26T06:02:02Z holycow: thanks again.
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2019-11-26T06:12:54Z ebrasca: aeth: I have now multithreading , what do you like me to test?
2019-11-26T06:13:30Z aeth: I'm not sure. The discussion was a while ago.
2019-11-26T06:13:45Z aeth: I think no-defun-allowed was also involved in the discussion iirc and no-defun-allowed knows the threading libraries.
2019-11-26T06:14:04Z no-defun-allowed: What discussion?
2019-11-26T06:14:32Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: benchmarking the SMT on POWER? or something.
2019-11-26T06:14:43Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, I don't remember that too well.
2019-11-26T06:14:53Z edgar-rft: is this the new alzheimer channel?
2019-11-26T06:15:21Z aeth: me niether, but the benchmark would be simple. 1 thread, n threads (where n is number of cores), n*2 threads, n*4 threads (because power has 4-way SMT)
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2019-11-26T06:17:10Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-11-26T06:17:17Z beach: anlsh: I can't recommend it.
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2019-11-26T06:18:14Z ebrasca: Morning beach!
2019-11-26T06:19:13Z anlsh: Unfortunate, any particular reason?
2019-11-26T06:20:03Z beach: anlsh: A lot of the book contains C code, and the strategy for implementing memory allocation is very different from what most implementations would do.
2019-11-26T06:20:48Z beach: I had hoped that it would discuss pros and cons with different implementation strategies, but it is basically just the code of one particular implementation.
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2019-11-26T06:25:09Z anlsh: I see. As to the "too much C" complaint, were you hoping the author would bootstrap earlier?
2019-11-26T06:26:17Z beach: Well, I was hoping for an insight into different strategies.  Among them, a strategy where everything is written in Common Lisp, and the pros and cons of that one.
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2019-11-26T06:27:39Z beach: The title of the book suggested that.  But, like I said, it is basically just the commented code of one particular implementation.
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2019-11-26T06:29:47Z beach: anlsh: But you might like it, depending on what you are looking for.
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2019-11-26T06:32:00Z beach: anlsh: If the goal is to create a general-purpose Common Lisp implementation, today there is no particular reason to write it in a language other than Common Lisp.
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2019-11-26T06:33:49Z anlsh: Thanks, I think you're right in that we're trying to get different things from the book. Follow-up, how much experience did you have with the topics in the book beforehand? I don't have any experience with compilers, and am wondering how approachable it would be
2019-11-26T06:34:42Z beach: I think it is fairly easy to understand.  But it doesn't give any insight into different ways of creating a Common Lisp system.
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2019-11-26T06:35:35Z beach: I am writing SICL at the moment, so I already have experience with different implementation strategies.
2019-11-26T06:36:25Z beach: anlsh: You would learn more about the pros and cons of different strategies by asking in #sicl than by reading that book.
2019-11-26T06:36:42Z anlsh: Yeah, my interest it is definitely from a different perspective. I was hoping to use it as an introduction to language implementation in general
2019-11-26T06:37:05Z beach: Then it is not the right book for you.
2019-11-26T06:37:58Z beach: But if you don't have too many budget restrictions, go ahead and buy it just to check it out.
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2019-11-26T06:41:25Z anlsh: Well, if it's not usable as an intro text to implementation stuff then I'll hold off for now
2019-11-26T06:41:37Z anlsh: Thanks for the advice though!
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2019-11-26T06:42:11Z beach: Sure.  Again, if you want to discuss different strategies, go ahead and do it here or in #sicl.
2019-11-26T06:43:01Z beach: We have people here who maintain SBCL, ECL, Clasp, CCL, and SICL.
2019-11-26T06:43:09Z beach: So you can get different perspectives.
2019-11-26T06:43:34Z beach: Besides, such a discussion would be very much on topic.
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2019-11-26T06:48:15Z beach: anlsh: For example, most existing implementations were started before CLOS was part of the standard, so they all incorporate CLOS very late in the build process.  I think that with a new implementation, that strategy is not a good one.
2019-11-26T06:49:12Z beach: Even SBCL suffers from that problem.  The compiler is written without the use of generic functions.
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2019-11-26T06:53:01Z beach: For instance, SICL can use DEFCLASS to define the class SYMBOL, but if you don't have CLOS, you have to define it differently.
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2019-11-26T07:59:34Z lukego: ok time to spend a few cycles working out how to use Lisp with org-babel
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2019-11-26T08:05:54Z jdz: In my experience it "just works".
2019-11-26T08:06:05Z jdz: For simple cases, at least (single session).
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2019-11-26T08:22:42Z lukego: Indeed. What fun is that?
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2019-11-26T08:54:32Z lukego: I'm reading the ASDF docs but I'm still not sure what it is I'm supposed to do nowadays instead of pushing a directory onto ASDF:*CENTRAL-REGISTRY* to programmatically add a a directory to be searched for .asd systems?
2019-11-26T08:57:40Z jackdaniel: asdf looks for some magic config files where you may specify what is put where, afair it is described in a manual (but poorly written)
2019-11-26T08:58:26Z jackdaniel: lukego: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF
2019-11-26T08:58:38Z jackdaniel: look at the third bullet
2019-11-26T08:58:48Z jackdaniel: (of 4.1)
2019-11-26T08:59:48Z jackdaniel: and in totally different place (8.5) check configuration dsl
2019-11-26T09:00:18Z jackdaniel: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuration-DSL
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2019-11-26T09:22:12Z splittist: lukego: pushing still works. And don't forget about quicklisp/local-projects/
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2019-11-26T09:34:51Z lukego: Situation is that I've used Quicklisp to create a "bundle" of all my dependencies, and setup the Lisp startup env to find all of those, but now I want to add the *.asd that live in my source tree somehow. These systems aren't really "installed" and so I don't have the linked from standard paths and configuration files. Maybe what I need is a custom lisp.sh that makes them findable at startup and use that as inferior-lisp-p
2019-11-26T09:36:11Z lukego: ... So at runtime I don't have Quicklisp and I also don't want to hack well-known files in ~/ etc.
2019-11-26T09:36:38Z lukego: but actually the custom startup script will be fine, I'm already doing that anyway and just hadn't thought to plug in my systems there.
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2019-11-26T09:37:45Z lukego: I've gone "full nix" and made a little distro of all the Lisp and Emacs packages that I need, and their configurations, using the nix tooling that grovels Quicklisp and MELPA. Seems to work surprisingly well now.
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2019-11-26T09:55:53Z scymtym: lukego: i didn't catch whether you still it, but something like (asdf:initialize-source-registry '(:source-registry  (:tree "/path/to/tree") (:tree "/path/to/directory/") :ignore-inherited-configuration)) configures the source registry programmatically
2019-11-26T09:56:56Z lukego: I really just want to add a path without disturbing what's already there, since that was painstakingly setup by some cl-wrapper.sh script that I didn't write and am only starting to understand now
2019-11-26T09:57:10Z lukego: but probably shell before startup is the right place for me anyway, thanks
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2019-11-26T10:08:42Z jdz: lukego: There is also CL_SOURCE_REGISTRY environment variable (if you have not already seen it).
2019-11-26T10:09:46Z lukego: Thanks. I'm trying now with NIX_LISP_ASDF_PATHS that the nix common lisp wrapper seems to turn into :TREE paths for asdf. However they don't seem to be getting picked up and I'm not clear on how to ask ASDF exactly what its complete set of search paths is at runtime?
2019-11-26T10:10:50Z jdz: I remember struggling with this as well, and ended up using CL_SOURCE_REGISTRY, but exact details of my struggles evade me...
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2019-11-26T10:11:28Z jdz: This should encourage me to keep a work journal.
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2019-11-26T10:12:10Z lukego: I'm concerned that this variable might be clobbered by the wrapper, but here goes nothing...
2019-11-26T10:13:23Z lukego: jdz: that actually worked fine, thanks for the nudge :)
2019-11-26T10:14:21Z jdz: Nice, glad I could be of help!
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2019-11-26T11:17:37Z lukego: I'm looking for but not finding information about how to make org-babel start SLIME session(s) by itself. I feel like I've seen this on the interwebs before though?
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2019-11-26T11:21:55Z splittist: What does 'by itself' mean?
2019-11-26T11:23:28Z lukego: I mean that if I open Emacs, and open a .org file with Lisp source, and press `C-c C-c' to try and build it, then it complains that no SLIME session is available to evaluate the Lisp code. So I need to do `M-x slime' first. But I have the impression that org is able to manage one or more sessions on it own? (Or maybe it only does that with other languages, I don't quite recall.)
2019-11-26T11:26:35Z lukego: (This is not something important, I can easily live without, just had a memory fragment of having seen a HOWTO once upon a time and not finding it again now. Could have been for e.g. R rather than Lisp or something though.)
2019-11-26T11:27:36Z oni-on-ion: there must be a way to "start sliime automatically"
2019-11-26T11:27:42Z oni-on-ion: not org-specific though
2019-11-26T11:29:30Z oni-on-ion: https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/26142/is-it-possible-to-open-file-then-load-slime-automatically   ?
2019-11-26T11:38:49Z _death: you can change org-babel-lisp-eval-fn to your own function that starts slime if necessary
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2019-11-26T11:50:51Z Josh_2: oni-on-ion: very useful haha I'd never even considered doing that until that link
2019-11-26T11:50:56Z Josh_2: so now mine does it :P
2019-11-26T11:51:47Z oni-on-ion: =D
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2019-11-26T12:00:31Z Josh_2: had to adjust to split virtically :D
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2019-11-26T12:11:50Z easye: lukego: RE: ASDF, I've been experimentally <https://github.com/armedbear/abcl/blob/master/ci/asdf-finds-abcl.bash> creating a DSL file for every ASDF system I want to access.
2019-11-26T12:12:27Z easye: Having everything on the filesystem allows me to quickly M-x ag introspect what is currently available by invoking ASDF:INITIALIZE-SOURCE-REGISTRY
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2019-11-26T12:13:40Z easye: And for patches to Quicklisp, it is sufficient to git clone things into <file:~/quicklisp/localprojects/> <https://github.com/armedbear/abcl/blob/master/.travis.yml#L43>
2019-11-26T12:15:39Z easye: err "patches to Quicklisp located systems"
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2019-11-26T12:37:37Z phoe: Is #'STRING always supposed to return fresh strings?
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2019-11-26T12:38:23Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_string.htm tells me nothing about this.
2019-11-26T12:39:21Z Shinmera: It says right there, if it is a string, it is returned.
2019-11-26T12:39:25Z Shinmera: so, no.
2019-11-26T12:40:03Z jackdaniel: it works like coerce
2019-11-26T12:40:31Z phoe: I ask in case of (string #\a)
2019-11-26T12:41:15Z phoe: "If x is a character, then a string containing that one character is returned."
2019-11-26T12:41:24Z phoe: Is that string fresh, or can it be constant-folded?
2019-11-26T12:41:38Z phoe: There is an ANSI-TEST that assumes that it must be fresh every single time, and it fails on CCL.
2019-11-26T12:46:06Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1570#1570 is the test body
2019-11-26T12:46:41Z phoe: if #'STRING for characters works like #'COERCE, then the result must be fresh
2019-11-26T12:49:12Z jackdaniel: assuming that the same string may be returned, what about (%f) (setf (svref str 0) #\d) (%f)  ;?
2019-11-26T12:50:00Z _death: if the result EQ is expected to be true then it assumes the string is not fresh.. I don't think you can assume either way, so you treat it as if it wasn't.. same for COERCE
2019-11-26T12:50:04Z phoe: jackdaniel: I don't understand - where should the SETF go?
2019-11-26T12:50:27Z phoe: _death: ideally I'd want the passage from the spec that says that the produced objects must be fresh
2019-11-26T12:50:40Z _death: phoe: but there is no passage
2019-11-26T12:50:45Z phoe: because in theory #'COERCE could cache its results and return them if the objects need not be fresh
2019-11-26T12:50:47Z _death: phoe: this is why you can't assume it's fresh
2019-11-26T12:51:21Z easye: Aren't strings implicitly static objects for implementations?  It's true for abcl as they thunk down to java.lang.String references.
2019-11-26T12:51:24Z phoe: _death: in this case ansi-test STRING.FOLD.1 is not valid
2019-11-26T12:52:02Z phoe: easye: Java strings are immutable but Lisp strings are mutable.
2019-11-26T12:52:34Z easye: phoe: ah, yes.
2019-11-26T12:52:56Z jackdaniel: (let ((str1 (string #\a))) (setf (char str1 0) #\d) (values (string #\a) str1))
2019-11-26T12:53:02Z jackdaniel: I mean this
2019-11-26T12:53:49Z jackdaniel: it would be awkward to have (string #\a) return "d"
2019-11-26T12:54:28Z _death: if it's not fresh you should treat it as a literal
2019-11-26T12:54:49Z _death: phoe: I don't understand the expansion of def-fold-test
2019-11-26T12:55:01Z phoe: jackdaniel: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1572#1572
2019-11-26T12:55:06Z phoe: so CCL constant-folds this
2019-11-26T12:55:27Z flip214: I'm trying to use named-readtables. In my code I have (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable))) (named-readtable:in-readtable :mine) (ignore-errors ...))) but still that readtable is used in the next commands sent via slime - which breaks parsing, of course.
2019-11-26T12:56:19Z phoe: I've annotated this paste with one more. If you use (string #\a) that is not wrapped in a function call, then a fresh string is produced.
2019-11-26T12:56:33Z trittweiler: flip214,  in-readtable modifies a slime variable associating a package with a readtable. It has a global side-effect that way
2019-11-26T12:56:57Z phoe: flip214: in-readtable should be a toplevel form
2019-11-26T12:57:21Z phoe: same deal as with in-package
2019-11-26T12:58:27Z trittweiler: flip214, sly (https://github.com/joaotavora/sly) I believe has proper support for named-readtables. Which means it looks for a contextual in-readtable form (like Slime does for in-package) and makes sure to send that to swank when evaluating.
2019-11-26T12:58:37Z jackdaniel: literal objects are described as either quoted or self-evaluating, so it would not be conforming for stadard function to return a literal object, no?
2019-11-26T12:59:16Z phoe: #'symbol-name
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2019-11-26T12:59:31Z phoe: this is a standard function that returns a literal object
2019-11-26T12:59:59Z jackdaniel: no, it is only said that consequences are undefined if name is modified
2019-11-26T13:00:13Z jackdaniel: so you must not change the name
2019-11-26T13:00:36Z jackdaniel: but you've got a point, there are functions which may return literal objects. but I'd expect their specification to have such warning
2019-11-26T13:01:01Z jackdaniel: (like symbol-name has)
2019-11-26T13:01:41Z trittweiler: Yeah, otherwise a compiler could constant fold (cons 1 nil) etc :)
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2019-11-26T13:03:06Z phoe: so the question is, is #'STRING allowed to return a literal object?
2019-11-26T13:03:18Z _death: phoe: (ok, I figured out deftest syntax..) note that in the other cases STRING can return such objects.. the string itself as shinmera noted, or the symbol's name, which as you note should not be modified.. so it makes sense to expect that the string (string #\X) should also be treated as such, given that there's no special wording to contradict
2019-11-26T13:03:24Z jackdaniel: also what symbol name returns is not literal objects but rather internal state of the symbol object
2019-11-26T13:03:52Z _death: I didn't say it was a literal, but that it should be treated as a literal..
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2019-11-26T13:04:25Z Bike: "literal" means it literally appears in the code, using it to mean "can't be modified" is confusing
2019-11-26T13:04:34Z phoe: s/literal/immutable/
2019-11-26T13:04:37Z phoe: or rather
2019-11-26T13:04:39Z phoe: s/literal/immutable/g
2019-11-26T13:04:46Z phoe: so the question is, is #'STRING allowed to return an immutable object?
2019-11-26T13:04:55Z Bike: yeah, sure.
2019-11-26T13:05:02Z Bike: first bullet point says if the argument is a string it's returned.
2019-11-26T13:05:05Z _death: Bike: maybe there's a better term
2019-11-26T13:05:07Z Bike: seems straightforward
2019-11-26T13:05:11Z phoe: Bike: (string #\a)
2019-11-26T13:05:15Z phoe: that is the case in question
2019-11-26T13:05:23Z Bike: oh. i dunno.
2019-11-26T13:05:49Z phoe: ANSI-TEST claims that it must be fresh, but I need some spec to back up that claim.
2019-11-26T13:06:13Z Shinmera: Does any implementation actually cache these?
2019-11-26T13:06:13Z jackdaniel: the thing is that spec doesn't say, that returned object from character is immutable, but when you mutate it function starts to return incorrect results
2019-11-26T13:06:27Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: according to phoe ccl does
2019-11-26T13:06:35Z Shinmera: that's... surprising to me.
2019-11-26T13:07:05Z phoe: Shinmera: or rather, it doesn't cache it
2019-11-26T13:07:09Z jackdaniel: phoe: see above ^ #'string may start to return incorrect results in code which is not non-conforming
2019-11-26T13:07:10Z _death: could imagine a compiler macro
2019-11-26T13:07:13Z jackdaniel: so that would settle it
2019-11-26T13:07:24Z Shinmera: phoe: ok, good
2019-11-26T13:07:27Z phoe: but a FLET function with optimize speed 3 everything-else 0 that calls (string #\a) is constant-folded into "a"
2019-11-26T13:07:53Z jackdaniel: I think that with safety 0 everything goes, even segfaults ,-)
2019-11-26T13:08:20Z phoe: jackdaniel: I doubt that non-conforming code should make it into ANSI-TEST though
2019-11-26T13:08:27Z jackdaniel: safety 0 speed 3 --> I must make it constant fold random ;)
2019-11-26T13:08:30Z phoe: does the test conform? I think so
2019-11-26T13:08:35Z phoe: jackdaniel: xD
2019-11-26T13:08:49Z Bike: ansi-test sure seems to include some weird corner cases
2019-11-26T13:09:02Z phoe: Bike: that is definitely Yet Another One of Them™
2019-11-26T13:09:03Z jackdaniel: phoe: there is nothing in spec, that you can't modify result of (string #\a), so you are not forbidden to modify it
2019-11-26T13:09:21Z phoe: jackdaniel: that sounds correct, yes
2019-11-26T13:09:24Z jackdaniel: when you mutate resulting string and subsequent call (string #\a) returns something else than "a", then it is incorrect result
2019-11-26T13:09:31Z jackdaniel: hence a new object should be created
2019-11-26T13:09:51Z phoe: this implies that the test is correct and CCL needs a patch
2019-11-26T13:10:06Z _death: disagree.. since it doesn't claim the string to be fresh, you could have a compiler macro that expands to "X" on form (string #\X)
2019-11-26T13:10:12Z Bike: if ccl doesn't cache why does it need a patch
2019-11-26T13:10:13Z jackdaniel: seems so. I would be more unsure in case of symbol passed to string - should it copy the symbol's name?
2019-11-26T13:10:28Z jackdaniel: because it is not said it calls (symbol-name ...) hence there is no restriction on immutability
2019-11-26T13:10:54Z phoe: Bike: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1574#1574
2019-11-26T13:11:09Z Bike: oic.
2019-11-26T13:11:22Z Bike: i dunno, if this doesn't actually break anything it seems fine
2019-11-26T13:11:54Z phoe: someone could depend on #'STRING returning fresh values
2019-11-26T13:12:04Z phoe: so in theory it could break someone's code
2019-11-26T13:12:07Z _death: that someone would be wrong to do that
2019-11-26T13:12:38Z phoe: well
2019-11-26T13:12:49Z phoe: _death claims that the spec doesn't say anything about the string being fresh
2019-11-26T13:12:53Z jackdaniel thinks that the test is correct
2019-11-26T13:13:00Z phoe: jackdaniel claims that the spec doesn't say anything about the string not being fresh
2019-11-26T13:13:11Z Bike: these kinds of issues are precisely annoying to deal with because without real cases of it coming up it's just abstract
2019-11-26T13:13:20Z phoe: or did I get the order wrong, whatever
2019-11-26T13:13:22Z jackdaniel: I've given an example earlier
2019-11-26T13:13:39Z jackdaniel: and reasoning
2019-11-26T13:13:47Z phoe: yep, I'm re-reading it now
2019-11-26T13:14:39Z phoe: (flet ((%f () (string #\a))) (let ((x (%f))) (setf (char x 0) #\d) (list x (%f))))
2019-11-26T13:14:51Z phoe: ;=> ("d" "d") on CCL
2019-11-26T13:15:09Z phoe: even on standard compiler policy, so without (declare (optimize (speed only)))
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2019-11-26T13:19:23Z phoe: but CCL states that (constantp '(string #\a)) ;=> NIL
2019-11-26T13:19:57Z phoe: so it shouldn't be constant-folded
2019-11-26T13:20:20Z Bike: constantp doesn't have to be part of the implementation's folding process.
2019-11-26T13:20:49Z phoe: one second though - is an implementation allowed to constant-fold something that is not constantp?
2019-11-26T13:20:54Z Bike: yes, that's what i said.
2019-11-26T13:21:14Z phoe: so I cannot depend on constantp in this case, all right
2019-11-26T13:21:41Z Bike: constantp isn't even sufficient to describe all the constant folding a compiler can do since it can't know about lexical variables that happen to be constants, etc.
2019-11-26T13:21:46Z _death: constant folding may not even be involved
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2019-11-26T13:22:30Z _death: there is a single form that may expand to a literal.. no constant folding needed
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2019-11-26T13:41:56Z pjb: phoe: check again: (flet ((%f () (string #\a))) (let ((x (%f))) (setf (char x 0) #\d) (list x (%f)))) #| --> ("d" "a") |#
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2019-11-26T13:43:01Z _death: pjb: maybe you have an old ccl
2019-11-26T13:43:19Z pjb: (lisp-implementation-version) #| --> "Version 1.12-dev (v1.12-dev.4-4-gd9740256) Darwinx8664" |#
2019-11-26T13:43:35Z phoe: let me rebuild from source
2019-11-26T13:45:35Z _death: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/commits/master/compiler/optimizers.lisp
2019-11-26T13:45:56Z phoe: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/commit/d2174411c72d9208f1c081632cce6996448bc68a#diff-7dbee25941139b1e1582d8f0c87f1b23
2019-11-26T13:46:17Z flip214: trittweiler: phoe: so I can't use named-readtables to programmatically read and parse text data? there's no WITH-NAMED-READTABLE, sadly.
2019-11-26T13:46:31Z phoe: flip214: you can, but not inside the form that is being read
2019-11-26T13:46:43Z phoe: by the time IN-READTABLE is evaluated the form has already been read
2019-11-26T13:46:59Z trittweiler: flip214, (let ((*readtable* (find-readtable :foo))) (read-from-file ...))
2019-11-26T13:47:11Z phoe: pjb: "Version 1.12-dev (v1.12-dev.5-14-gf5c30785) LinuxX8664" gives me ("d" "d")
2019-11-26T13:47:34Z flip214: trittweiler: yeah, thanks -- I just found that as well
2019-11-26T13:48:43Z phoe: _death: thanks for that link, this is the commit that states that #'STRING can always be constant-folded
2019-11-26T13:48:55Z trittweiler: flip214, (it's most likely preferable to use ensure-readtable rather than find-readtable)
2019-11-26T13:49:25Z flip214: trittweiler: well, the readtable is defined just a few lines above, so there should be no difference in practice
2019-11-26T13:51:01Z _death: phoe: what's strange is that sbcl has deftransforms for string/symbol case but not for character..
2019-11-26T13:51:49Z phoe: _death: not really
2019-11-26T13:51:52Z pjb: phoe: there are cases indeed: https://pastebin.com/jJLNZqNH
2019-11-26T13:51:58Z phoe: for strings, X is returned
2019-11-26T13:52:07Z phoe: for symbols, symbol-name is returned which is immutable
2019-11-26T13:52:17Z phoe: for characters... this is the troublesome part
2019-11-26T13:52:54Z _death: phoe: it's strange to me that it doesn't have a deftransform returning a string literal
2019-11-26T13:53:46Z phoe: _death: mayhaps sbcl assumes that for characters the result must be fresh
2019-11-26T13:53:59Z phoe: running a brief test on sbcl confirms this
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2019-11-26T13:54:30Z _death: phoe: the ccl commit is from 2016.. sbcl should keep up :)
2019-11-26T13:54:34Z pjb: It doesn't formally say that a fresh string is returned.
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2019-11-26T13:54:51Z phoe: pjb: it doesn't also formally say that the consequences are undefined if that string is modified
2019-11-26T13:55:02Z jmercouris: why do I sometimes get the same restart twice in the debugger?
2019-11-26T13:55:04Z phoe: or tl;dr that an immutable string is returned
2019-11-26T13:55:05Z pjb: phoe: this would be equivalent.
2019-11-26T13:55:29Z phoe: jmercouris: because two different restarts have been established in various places of the stack
2019-11-26T13:55:35Z pjb: phoe: note that in the case of (string #1="x") it's #1# that is returned, not a fresh string (not a copy).
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2019-11-26T13:55:48Z jmercouris: phoe: Hm which one should you choose? the lower one?
2019-11-26T13:55:56Z phoe: pjb: yes, that is correct, I am talking about the case with characters.
2019-11-26T13:56:03Z phoe: jmercouris: can't say in the general case
2019-11-26T13:56:06Z pjb: phoe: consistency.
2019-11-26T13:56:10Z jmercouris: fair enough, I guess it would depend
2019-11-26T13:56:35Z phoe: pjb: if we want consistency, then #'STRING may return non-fresh values and the ansi-test is wrong
2019-11-26T13:56:36Z trittweiler: It's not even clear if it isn't the same restart that actually gets invoked
2019-11-26T13:57:01Z _death: phoe: I believe ansi-test is wrong, if it's not clear by now :)
2019-11-26T13:57:26Z trittweiler: which would be the upper one, assuming they are displayed by sorting top-to-bottom
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2019-11-26T13:59:46Z phoe: my question by now is - since this tests succeeds only if #'STRING returns *fresh* values, where in the spec is it specified that #'STRING must return *fresh* values
2019-11-26T14:00:33Z phoe: (or whether they should or shouldn't be)
2019-11-26T14:01:34Z pjb: phoe: that's the point; it's not formally specified.  "fresh" doesn't occur on this clhs page.
2019-11-26T14:02:24Z flip214: I do (:syntax-from :common-lisp #\( #'<)  so that the string "(1,2,3<") is correctly parsed as a list -- but the reader says "unmatched close parenthesis" there. How can I fake the end of a list then?
2019-11-26T14:02:45Z shka__: does sbcl use sxhash for hash-tables created with :test 'eq parameter?
2019-11-26T14:02:49Z shka__: hi, btw
2019-11-26T14:03:35Z shka__: flip214: well, try "(1,2,3<)"
2019-11-26T14:03:40Z pjb: flip214: try to parse "(1,2,3<)"
2019-11-26T14:03:55Z shka__: damn, you pjb
2019-11-26T14:03:57Z jmercouris: trittweiler: well, the strings are exactly the same, I can't exactly know without actually looking with the inspector
2019-11-26T14:03:58Z pjb: flip214: also, use the fucking emacs !
2019-11-26T14:04:01Z phoe: flip214: you can't do that
2019-11-26T14:04:12Z phoe: the reader macro for #\( calls read-delimited-list with #\)
2019-11-26T14:04:13Z pjb: flip214: emacs will colorize the string so you can see what's inside and what's outside!!!
2019-11-26T14:04:21Z flip214: shka__: pjb: same
2019-11-26T14:04:26Z phoe: you must write your own reader macro that calls read-delimited-list with #\>
2019-11-26T14:04:35Z shka__: hmm, ok
2019-11-26T14:04:57Z flip214: pjb: not for a self-defined readtable
2019-11-26T14:05:17Z flip214: and the string actually is "(1,2,3<"    the ")" after was a typo
2019-11-26T14:05:33Z flip214: or, rather, the end of my test-expression
2019-11-26T14:05:57Z trittweiler: flip214,  what phoe says. Define your own reader macro function for #\< which uses read-delimited listwith #\>
2019-11-26T14:06:00Z pjb: ok, in that case, I guess you assume that (:syntax-from :common-lisp #\( #'<) means define a reader macro on #\( to read-delimited-list with comma and #\<…
2019-11-26T14:06:08Z flip214: phoe: thanks; I could also have #\) as the list terminator, so I can't call read-delimited-list myself
2019-11-26T14:06:09Z pjb: if not, do your programming job.
2019-11-26T14:06:39Z trittweiler: yeah then you really need to write a function that does the parsing yourself :)
2019-11-26T14:06:53Z jmercouris: Save time, write a parser that writes parsers so you never have to write a parser again
2019-11-26T14:06:53Z phoe: flip214: wait a second though, your lists can be <1 2 3) or <1 2 3>?
2019-11-26T14:06:53Z flip214: pjb: I hoped that I can just "copy" the behaviour from #\) to #\<, but that's not so easy.
2019-11-26T14:07:12Z flip214: phoe: no, the beginning is always a #\(
2019-11-26T14:07:26Z phoe: flip214: okay, what can the ending be?
2019-11-26T14:07:31Z flip214: I guess the easiest way is to cut the < and everything after off
2019-11-26T14:07:39Z flip214: either < or )
2019-11-26T14:07:46Z pjb: The trick of lisp is the Polish notation: the first character determines the syntax, the first symbol determins the semantics.
2019-11-26T14:08:00Z pjb: This is what makes things easy in lisp.
2019-11-26T14:08:18Z flip214: this is "parsing" the strace argument list; and so I have to handle "<... unfinished>"
2019-11-26T14:08:23Z phoe: flip214: you can't use READ-DELIMITED-LIST then since it expects a single closing char.
2019-11-26T14:08:43Z flip214: I was able to redefine , to be the delimiter character, and to ignore spaces after it
2019-11-26T14:09:18Z flip214: but I guess writing a loop becomes easier than fudging the lisp reader to do that
2019-11-26T14:09:22Z flip214: thanks, everyone!
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2019-11-26T14:21:06Z jmercouris: :-)
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2019-11-26T14:29:56Z phoe: jackdaniel: the spec doesn't say that the return value is mutable and it doesn't say that the return value is immutable
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2019-11-26T14:30:08Z phoe: so it might be one or the other
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2019-11-26T14:31:04Z phoe: that is what I understand so far
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2019-11-26T14:33:22Z Xach: lukego: fyi the bundle loader script also includes a local-projects mechanism
2019-11-26T14:37:50Z Xach: it is a small function, not like including the whole of quicklisp.
2019-11-26T14:44:26Z jackdaniel: phoe: taking that line of thought renders string produced with with make-string foldable
2019-11-26T14:45:15Z jackdaniel: while I agree that it is not said whether it is a fresh object or not, there is no indication that modifying the result is an undefined behavior releasing nasal deamons
2019-11-26T14:45:41Z jackdaniel: and (string #\a) returning "d" is a clear example of a nasal deamon
2019-11-26T14:48:18Z phoe: jackdaniel: you are correct, make-string is supposed to be the function for consing up new strings
2019-11-26T14:49:31Z phoe: so it seems that the only possible choice that doesn't conflict with (string #\a) returning "d" is to make #'STRING always return fresh strings for characters
2019-11-26T14:49:43Z phoe: even though it is inconsistent with #'STRING returning non-fresh objects otherwise
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2019-11-26T14:51:19Z jackdaniel: in case of a symbol name I would argue that it is necessary to return a fresh string
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2019-11-26T14:51:48Z phoe: no, why?
2019-11-26T14:51:55Z phoe: it returns its name, so exactly what SYMBOL-NAME does
2019-11-26T14:52:03Z phoe: and clhs symbol-name says, The consequences are undefined if name is ever modified.
2019-11-26T14:52:19Z jackdaniel: it is not said, that it returns the same thing as symbol-name does (or that it calls symbol-name)
2019-11-26T14:52:37Z phoe: clhs symbol-name: symbol-name returns the name of symbol.
2019-11-26T14:52:49Z jackdaniel: yes, and (string symbols) returns the name of symbol.
2019-11-26T14:52:54Z phoe: clhs string: If x is a symbol, its name is returned.
2019-11-26T14:53:01Z phoe: so both return the same string
2019-11-26T14:53:08Z jackdaniel: (defun xxx () 42)
2019-11-26T14:53:14Z jackdaniel: (defun yyy () (xxx))
2019-11-26T14:53:17Z jackdaniel: (defun zzz () 42)
2019-11-26T14:53:25Z jackdaniel: is zzz the same thing as yyy?
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2019-11-26T14:53:43Z phoe: they return the same value
2019-11-26T14:54:31Z phoe: so both return the same string
2019-11-26T14:54:38Z jackdaniel: number is a wrong example, let's imagine, that 42 is "42" above
2019-11-26T14:54:39Z phoe: s/string/thing/
2019-11-26T14:55:12Z jackdaniel: specification: yyy returns "42". modifying string has undefined consequences. vs. zzz returns "42".
2019-11-26T14:55:24Z phoe: hah, so this is what you mean
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2019-11-26T14:55:57Z phoe: if we read it that way, it becomes obligatory that (symbol-name :foo) is NOT eq to (string :foo)
2019-11-26T14:56:03Z jackdaniel: that's why I would argue, that (string symbol) should return a fresh string
2019-11-26T14:56:14Z jackdaniel: well, not really
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2019-11-26T14:56:23Z phoe: ...
2019-11-26T14:56:26Z pfdietz: On the issue of strings in the standard:   an implementation is allowed to turn string constants into strings with restricted element types.   "foo" can be turned into a simple-base-string, for example.
2019-11-26T14:56:26Z jackdaniel: undefined consequences in symbol-name doesn't prohibit it from returing fresh string
2019-11-26T14:56:29Z phoe: well, SYMBOL-NAME could return fresh strings as well
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2019-11-26T14:56:50Z jackdaniel: they only say, that it may return internal state of the symbol
2019-11-26T14:56:54Z jmercouris: let's say I am at a parenthesis and I want to jump to the corresponding parenthesis, how can I do that?
2019-11-26T14:56:54Z phoe: pfdietz: that's a different issue though, subtyping strings into more specialized strings
2019-11-26T14:57:01Z phoe: jmercouris: in emacs?
2019-11-26T14:57:18Z phoe: C-M-f for me on spacemacs while in lisp-mode
2019-11-26T14:57:26Z pfdietz: Yes, but it's an issue that breaks at least one project in quicklisp. :)
2019-11-26T14:57:30Z jackdaniel: one way is to hit right arrow until you are there, or what phoe says
2019-11-26T14:57:31Z jmercouris: phoe: in emacs, yes
2019-11-26T14:57:33Z Xach: it is the same in mundane emacs
2019-11-26T14:57:43Z phoe: pfdietz: welp, which one
2019-11-26T14:57:44Z Xach: C-M-f to go forward, C-M-b to go back
2019-11-26T14:57:52Z jmercouris: Ah yes, thank you
2019-11-26T14:58:00Z jmercouris: it works, I've been wanting this keyword for a long time
2019-11-26T14:58:05Z jmercouris: key chord*
2019-11-26T14:58:25Z pfdietz: I forget, alas.  It was in a test case where a string constant is copied, then a non-base-char is assigned into the copy.
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2019-11-26T14:58:49Z jmercouris: there is so much to paredit to learn and to master...
2019-11-26T14:59:11Z _death: wait til you learn about C-M-t
2019-11-26T14:59:19Z jmercouris: what is that? transpose sexp?
2019-11-26T14:59:26Z _death: yes
2019-11-26T14:59:31Z jmercouris: mind blown
2019-11-26T14:59:44Z phoe: _death: this launches a terminal window on my linux box
2019-11-26T14:59:46Z jmercouris: I usually use simple things like C-arrow and kill and M-f, etc
2019-11-26T15:00:00Z phoe: I guess I will never get to know this keychord :(
2019-11-26T15:00:02Z jmercouris: phoe: tell your WM to stop intercepting the keywords meant for your OS
2019-11-26T15:00:13Z phoe: jmercouris: touche
2019-11-26T15:00:28Z jmercouris: phoe: you can do m-x transpose-sexps
2019-11-26T15:00:51Z pfdietz: (looks it up)  The failure was in babel
2019-11-26T15:01:12Z phoe: oh yes, I think I remember it now
2019-11-26T15:01:29Z _death: phoe: when I started using stumpwm I found it strange that it used C-t for prefix.. immediately switched it to C-z
2019-11-26T15:01:56Z pfdietz: https://github.com/cl-babel/babel/issues/34
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2019-11-26T15:03:47Z pfdietz: Is there a library for exploding a set of functions into versions specialized on particular subtypes of the arguments?   This comes up in some string handling code, where I want it to take advantge of some large string being simple and of a particular element type.
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2019-11-26T15:04:17Z pfdietz: I recall someone wrote this.
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2019-11-26T15:06:37Z pjb: pfdietz: beach did something like that to implement sequence processing functions.
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2019-11-26T15:07:20Z pjb: pfdietz: there's a paper about it in some els proceedings.
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2019-11-26T15:13:51Z _death: a recent one is https://github.com/numcl/specialized-function
2019-11-26T15:14:15Z jackdaniel: pfdietz: few mcclim functions do sometething like (macrolet (thunk () ...) (typecase foo (a (thunk)) (b (thunk))))
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2019-11-26T15:20:08Z jmercouris: what does thunk mean?
2019-11-26T15:20:27Z jmercouris: I've seen the term used a lot, I've looked at the definition, and I still don't get it
2019-11-26T15:21:16Z phoe: thunk is a sub-function that is supposed to be called by the main function
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2019-11-26T15:21:34Z jackdaniel: I like the first answer in here: https://daveceddia.com/what-is-a-thunk/ !
2019-11-26T15:21:42Z _death: just something you jump to without thinking.. it's been "thunk".. or, a function taking zero args that usually delegates to another thing
2019-11-26T15:21:57Z phoe: so basically a higher-order function
2019-11-26T15:22:11Z jmercouris: a nested function call?
2019-11-26T15:22:13Z phoe: uhhh not a HOF
2019-11-26T15:22:22Z phoe: the function argument to a HOF
2019-11-26T15:22:28Z jmercouris: oh, I see
2019-11-26T15:22:30Z Xach: And it can't take any arguments.
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2019-11-26T15:23:26Z jackdaniel: in sources I saw it is sometimes used as a macro name in macrolet to name something without a name
2019-11-26T15:23:52Z jmercouris: for thunks to be useful, do they have to use state from somewhere else?
2019-11-26T15:23:57Z jmercouris: if they can't accept args?
2019-11-26T15:23:58Z jackdaniel: (so strictly speaking in a snippet I've shared above it is not a function but a macro)
2019-11-26T15:24:43Z jackdaniel: I suppose they may close over a state when they are closures
2019-11-26T15:25:07Z jmercouris: isn't that a very technical workaround of not accepting args?
2019-11-26T15:25:31Z jmercouris: I mean technical in the casual sense
2019-11-26T15:25:32Z Xach: If they accept args they are no longer thunks but something more general
2019-11-26T15:25:40Z Xach: It's more of a definitional thing than a technical restraint
2019-11-26T15:25:55Z jmercouris: Interessant, OK
2019-11-26T15:26:00Z Xach: Something that accepts args might be called a callback instead
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2019-11-26T15:27:10Z pfdietz: Thunks originally came from implementing call-by-name in Algol 60.
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2019-11-26T15:27:19Z jmercouris: Ah, good old Algol 60
2019-11-26T15:27:22Z jmercouris: those were the days
2019-11-26T15:27:41Z jmercouris: I'm joking, I wasn't alive then, but yeah
2019-11-26T15:29:00Z _death: http://hackersdictionary.com/html/entry/thunk.html
2019-11-26T15:29:09Z pfdietz: Thunks for assignment would take a single argument, the value to be assigned.
2019-11-26T15:30:10Z _death: never heard of an unary thunk..
2019-11-26T15:30:31Z jmercouris: That sounds terrible, not sure why you wouldn't just use a defparameter or something if you need a compile time evaluation on the toplevel
2019-11-26T15:31:45Z pfdietz: I have actually had need for thunks in CL recently.  The issue was redefining a function that was defined in a nontrivial lexical environment.  To capture that environment, one creates thunks.
2019-11-26T15:32:42Z Xach: thunkmaker, thunkmaker, flet me a thunk
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2019-11-26T15:34:30Z jackdaniel: find me a match, label as such
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2019-11-26T15:36:54Z phoe: :thonk:
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2019-11-26T15:39:51Z pfdietz: That sounds like something from PDQ Bach.
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2019-11-26T15:41:33Z Josh_2: (incf phoe)
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2019-11-26T16:15:43Z phoe: _death: that CCL commit is sadly not enough. (string #\a) still gets folded with STRING not on that list.
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2019-11-26T16:21:40Z _death: what do you mean?
2019-11-26T16:22:10Z _death: if you revert the commit EQ will still return true?
2019-11-26T16:23:57Z phoe: _death: yes
2019-11-26T16:24:08Z phoe: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/258
2019-11-26T16:26:13Z _death: well, I'm not convinced that is the right interpretation..
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2019-11-26T16:27:39Z phoe: _death: interpretation of what?
2019-11-26T16:28:36Z _death: of implications about the return value of STRING.. then again I'm just a CL-USER
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2019-11-26T16:29:32Z phoe: neither am I, but the spec is clearly not clear enough in this case
2019-11-26T16:29:49Z phoe: and returning fresh data whenever fresh data *might* be required is the safer choice
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2019-11-26T16:30:26Z _death: you can find many omissions once you're looking for them.. I already gave my argument wrt STRING
2019-11-26T16:30:32Z phoe: yes
2019-11-26T16:30:45Z phoe: and one naturally looks for omissions when one implements the language
2019-11-26T16:30:51Z phoe: except they are called "edge cases"
2019-11-26T16:31:40Z _death: it's not the safer choice, it's "false sense of security" choice.. the safe choice would be to not assume it's a fresh string
2019-11-26T16:32:16Z phoe: the users who read this page do not need to assume that the consequences are undefined if the resulting value is modified
2019-11-26T16:32:20Z sjl_: As a random bystander, reading clhs STRING, I would not expect the returned strings to necessarily be fresh
2019-11-26T16:32:21Z phoe: since the page doesn't say that
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2019-11-26T16:33:03Z sjl_: (string "foo") is in fact defined to NOT be fresh.
2019-11-26T16:33:48Z _death: phoe: if a user modifies this string, whether it "works" or not on a particular implementation, it's not guaranteed to work by the standard, so it just gives a false sense of security.. and the cost is that you can't have a more efficient STRING
2019-11-26T16:33:55Z phoe: sjl_: pjb has already said that above, correct
2019-11-26T16:34:18Z sjl_: Some day I'll set up an IRC bouncer.
2019-11-26T16:34:23Z sjl_: But not today.
2019-11-26T16:35:00Z phoe: make-string also doesn't say that its result value is fresh
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2019-11-26T16:35:24Z phoe: even though it would take a madman to think that it may share structure with anything
2019-11-26T16:35:26Z _death: phoe: like I said, you can find many omissions.. CL's spec is informal
2019-11-26T16:35:37Z phoe: yes, as much as we'd like it to be formal
2019-11-26T16:35:50Z phoe: the question is how do we interpret these omissions once we want to solidify them
2019-11-26T16:35:58Z phoe: and ANSI-TEST is such a solidification
2019-11-26T16:36:19Z sjl_: I'd argue that "a string is constructed" seems to imply fresh strings pretty heavily.
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2019-11-26T16:37:09Z _death: phoe: Common Sense
2019-11-26T16:37:36Z phoe: _death: we don't have any standard implementation of that though
2019-11-26T16:37:44Z phoe: even though I'd enjoy running my own SBCS
2019-11-26T16:38:00Z _death: with MAKE-STRING, there's not much doubt.. with STRING, there is..
2019-11-26T16:38:39Z phoe: ayup
2019-11-26T16:39:04Z _death: so as a user, you'd go for the conservative choice: not modify the string.. as an implementer you can decide to return a fresh string, but it won't matter if the user makes the conservative choice
2019-11-26T16:39:15Z phoe: yep
2019-11-26T16:39:35Z phoe: this is literally a workaround due to a bug in the spec
2019-11-26T16:40:10Z _death: but if the user goes wild and modifies the string, it will only work by chance - because the implementer chose to return a fresh string
2019-11-26T16:40:44Z sjl_: I'll reiterate: STRING is explicitly defined to NOT return a fresh string in some cases.  So as a user, I wouldn't expect to be able to rely on it returning fresh strings in the rest.
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2019-11-26T16:42:02Z phoe: sjl_: yes, that's correct as well. And that's what makes me even more confused.
2019-11-26T16:42:08Z phoe: (I've also made that argument up above.)
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2019-11-26T16:45:11Z sjl_: Now I'm confused.  You say "asits return values for symbols and characters are required to be fresh." in the issue, which is the OPPOSITE of what I'm saying.
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2019-11-26T16:46:08Z phoe: sjl_: yes, and this argument is consistent with what jackdaniel said earlier
2019-11-26T16:46:25Z _death: required how?
2019-11-26T16:47:05Z phoe: for characters, the spec doesn't say "the consequences bla bla bla"
2019-11-26T16:47:16Z phoe: for symbols, same thing
2019-11-26T16:48:44Z _death: so with this argument, whenever the spec doesn't say the structure is shared, you are required to return a fresh one?
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2019-11-26T16:50:34Z phoe: sigh
2019-11-26T16:50:49Z phoe: yes, you are correct
2019-11-26T16:50:53Z jackdaniel: _death: in some cases you need to take into account the core system integrity
2019-11-26T16:51:17Z phoe: it would be nice to have the spec say for every return value if it might share structure with anything else or if it is fully mutable
2019-11-26T16:51:17Z jackdaniel: in other you do not have to, because it is data supplied by user. i.e (string #\a) should always return "a"
2019-11-26T16:52:45Z phoe: so it seems I have four distinct choices now
2019-11-26T16:52:47Z _death: jackdaniel: earlier I mentioned the possibility of having a compiler macro for STRING that expands to a literal if the character is known
2019-11-26T16:53:07Z sjl_: I'm sure pjb probably said this in my missing scrollback, but an implementation that returns a single string for (string #\x) is a http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_c.htm#conforming_implementation
2019-11-26T16:53:14Z phoe: 1) STRING returns fresh data, CCL is buggy
2019-11-26T16:53:20Z _death: jackdaniel: do you rule it out because the user may want to modify this string?
2019-11-26T16:53:51Z sjl_: And a program that relies on (string #\x) being fresh is not a http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_c.htm#conforming_program
2019-11-26T16:54:16Z phoe: 2) STRING doesn't have to return fresh data, ANSI-TEST STRING.FOLD.1 is buggy
2019-11-26T16:54:59Z phoe: 3) the spec is buggy, annotate the test with :ANSI-SPEC-PROBLEM :STRING-RESULT-FRESH
2019-11-26T16:55:21Z phoe: 4) reconsider my life choices and start making music again instead of digging into lisp spec issues
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2019-11-26T16:55:39Z sjl_: To me it's pretty clearly 2.
2019-11-26T16:56:22Z _death: I wouldn't expect to be able to modify the string returned by MACHINE-TYPE (if any), though the spec also doesn't say whether it's fresh or not
2019-11-26T16:57:12Z jackdaniel: it is not said that modifying string returned by (string foo) has undefined consequences; but I'm reiterating myself
2019-11-26T16:57:41Z jackdaniel: so I'll just quack that I've rested my case earlier today
2019-11-26T16:57:44Z phoe: _death: but that is the easiest way for your lisp image to go from 64 bits to 32 bits! just mutate "x86_64" into "x86_32" and you can load 32bit foreign libs just fine, trust me
2019-11-26T16:58:16Z _death: better subseq 0 3 and then you can do both
2019-11-26T16:58:48Z _death: why is there no (setf machine-type)
2019-11-26T16:59:28Z phoe: jackdaniel: ditto about machine-type or lisp-implementation-type though
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2019-11-26T17:02:23Z phoe: https://i.imgur.com/iwv3gn2.png
2019-11-26T17:02:49Z _death: I'd expect z->j and then post on the Cloture thread :)
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2019-11-26T17:03:04Z phoe: _death: I'll leave that to ruricolist
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2019-11-26T17:15:12Z phoe: I'd say that it is an implementation detail whether STRING returns fresh strings or non-fresh strings
2019-11-26T17:15:21Z phoe: so much of a detail that the spec doesn't even mention it
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2019-11-26T17:19:51Z phoe: so the test tests something that isn't a part of the spec or inferable from its wording
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2019-11-26T19:11:56Z pfdietz: Hmm.   The criticism seems legitimate.
2019-11-26T19:13:06Z pfdietz: On the other hand, MAKE-STRING isn't specified to return a fresh string either.
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2019-11-26T19:16:22Z phoe: though it would be pretty insane to tell Lisp to make me a string and get a second-hand one that is already used in three other places
2019-11-26T19:16:37Z phoe: you can sue people who do exactly that
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2019-11-26T19:39:42Z phoe: after digesting all of the arguments I am absolutely tempted to make a PR saying that this is controversial enough for :ANSI-SPEC-PROBLEM
2019-11-26T19:39:59Z phoe: since I think that we can all agree on one thing - the spec has a problem here and should have been much clearer on that part
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2019-11-26T20:30:29Z rpg: Is there a library with streams for files opened through SSH?
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2019-11-26T20:32:47Z pjb: phoe: agreed.
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2019-11-26T20:53:44Z Xach: rpg: i don't think there's anything out there like that for free lisps
2019-11-26T20:55:12Z rpg: Xach: Thanks.  Seems like this will hamper use of CL for tasks that involve data analysis...
2019-11-26T20:55:18Z pfdietz: Every time I see those initials I think Gabriel.
2019-11-26T20:55:37Z rpg: pfdietz: That's why my slogan is "Not THAT rpg"
2019-11-26T20:56:02Z Xach: rpg: sure. if someone needs that to do data analysis and they want to use lisp, they will have to make it.
2019-11-26T20:57:10Z Xach: that is the way of most tasks with lisp. much must be made.
2019-11-26T20:58:11Z Xach: rpg: sometimes when i want something like that i fake it with run-program, e.g. (with-open-ssh-file (stream "user@host:path/blah") ...) it would just run scp and copy it to a local file, rather than try to do much fully in lisp.
2019-11-26T20:58:21Z Xach: then if i feel bad about that i can always change the implementation.
2019-11-26T20:59:25Z phoe: you could hack around it on linux using sshfs
2019-11-26T20:59:31Z Xach: phoe: there you go
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2019-11-26T21:00:01Z phoe: since sshfs uses fuse you do not need superuser privileges to run it
2019-11-26T21:00:29Z phoe: so just call the proper sshfs commands in some sorta directory and then use logical pathname translations to refer to that temporary directory
2019-11-26T21:00:39Z phoe: if you are faint of heart you may disregard the latter part of my sentence
2019-11-26T21:00:46Z phoe: I am not brave enough to use logical pathnames myself
2019-11-26T21:01:03Z Xach: i don't think this is a situation that calls for logical pathnames.
2019-11-26T21:01:34Z phoe: well, if you did it in a temporary directory it would
2019-11-26T21:01:41Z phoe: since you wouldn't need to care for the tmpdir pathname
2019-11-26T21:01:45Z Xach: I disagree.
2019-11-26T21:02:09Z Xach: I think logical pathnames are for when you have an enumerable set of literal pathnames embedded in the code, not for arbitrary translations with runtime variations
2019-11-26T21:02:26Z phoe: I wonder why you can't use the other though
2019-11-26T21:02:34Z Xach: The other what?
2019-11-26T21:02:39Z phoe: is *default-pathname-defaults* enough?
2019-11-26T21:02:41Z phoe: the other case
2019-11-26T21:02:50Z phoe: for arbitrary translations with runtime variations
2019-11-26T21:03:05Z Xach: one reason is that the incoming syntax pretty limited
2019-11-26T21:03:22Z Xach: It doesn't survive the trip through translations for arbitrary runtime values
2019-11-26T21:03:27Z White_Flame: IMO, this is something the OS really should handle.  The fact that all networking is bound to just a plain host:port is a massive weakness
2019-11-26T21:04:20Z Xach: I think it's a bummer that people start with the idea of arbitrary, configurable runtime pathname transformation and get Very Upset when logical pathnames don't do that, but I don't think that's fully the fault of logical pathnames
2019-11-26T21:05:07Z Xach: Like we say here in texas, you can't get mad at a tree for leaving
2019-11-26T21:06:32Z rpg: phoe: sshfs sounds neat.  I'm with Xach though about logical pathnames -- I think there's too much danger that the filenames would break the LP rules, turning that into a mess.
2019-11-26T21:07:49Z White_Flame: I use sshfs all the time.  It's quite simple
2019-11-26T21:09:25Z White_Flame: mkdir foo ; sshfs me@machine:/dir/ foo
2019-11-26T21:09:42Z White_Flame: and for good measure, sshfs -o reconnect ...
2019-11-26T21:09:55Z White_Flame: in case it gets disconnected
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2019-11-26T21:31:38Z rpg: remote file streams seem like the sort of batteries I wish we had included.
2019-11-26T21:34:44Z Xach: scieneer had something a little like that
2019-11-26T21:34:58Z Xach: it used URIs for pathnames and you could open and read from http objects at least
2019-11-26T21:35:25Z rpg: Xach: I bet that's possible with ABCL, now that I think of it, but I'm not a JVM kind of guy.
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2019-11-26T21:41:15Z phoe: rpg: which languages got these included?
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2019-11-26T21:44:54Z rpg: phoe: I dunno.
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2019-11-26T21:45:51Z phoe: rpg: it seems like stackoverflow recommends sshfs in general for such cases
2019-11-26T21:47:03Z rpg: phoe: Yes.  Looks like someone set up an sftp file stream for python, but it's an add-on
2019-11-26T21:48:47Z jasom: rpg: who is maintaining ASDF these days?
2019-11-26T21:49:03Z rpg: jasom: I am, to the limited extent I have time for it. Why?
2019-11-26T21:49:47Z jasom: rpg: just curious; I had a few documentation ideas and wasn't sure who to run them by once they are more complete
2019-11-26T21:50:17Z rpg: Please send them my way!  I just got an idea for a new FAQ that I will try to put into the manual today.
2019-11-26T21:50:19Z phoe: jasom: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf accepts MRs I guess
2019-11-26T21:51:28Z rpg: phoe: Absolutely!
2019-11-26T21:52:23Z jasom: okay.  Will do.  I'm going to go back through the mailing list and some reddit posts because things that have been obvious to me for years w.r.t. asdf seem to still be hangups for others.
2019-11-26T21:54:07Z jasom: The number of times I've seen some variation of "I wish I could just load an ASD file and then have my system be loadable" come up is rather stunning since the manual is pretty clear on not just "yes that will work but "We even hook into slime's C-c C-k so that you don't need to do anything special if you're using slime"
2019-11-26T21:56:55Z jasom: life is finally slowing down enough for me that I can possibly contribute to projects in places I've noticed I might be of assistence
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2019-11-26T22:21:54Z rpg: jasom: I have to take off momentarily, but feel free to contact me if you need assistance -- TeXinfo isn't the easiest thing to edit! (but FWIW, it's a lot better than Python's Sphinx...)
2019-11-26T22:24:40Z jasom: If it weren't OT, I could spend so much time complaining about sphinx.
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2019-11-26T22:25:11Z rpg: +1
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2019-11-27T01:43:45Z jasom: Let's say I want to define a new component type for asdf.  Once I have done so, I can use it with :components ((foo:bar ...) *but* now a :defsystem-depends-on is insufficient to pull in my customization becaue the whole form is read before the defsystem-depends-on is processed.  What's the solution?
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2019-11-27T02:02:45Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: see iolib.asd
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2019-11-27T02:03:31Z jasom: One solution is to put a defpackage at the top of the .asd file; I'm looking at iolib.asd now
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2019-11-27T02:07:31Z jasom: aha a setf on (find-class)
2019-11-27T02:07:36Z jasom: thanks fe[nl]ix
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2019-11-27T02:09:23Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: it's a bizzare and possibly non-composable solution
2019-11-27T02:09:51Z fe[nl]ix: I suggest namespacing the class using some clear suffix
2019-11-27T02:09:59Z jasom: prefix?
2019-11-27T02:10:09Z fe[nl]ix: or that
2019-11-27T02:10:35Z fe[nl]ix: make sure it's unlikely someone else will use that same keyword
2019-11-27T02:10:43Z jasom: It's only non-composable in the sense that it imposes a single global namespace.  Package names have the exact same problem.
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2019-11-27T02:11:19Z fe[nl]ix: indeed
2019-11-27T02:11:31Z jasom: in terms of name collisions there's not really any difference between :foo-bar and foo::bar, but packages provided other forms of isolation that are useful.
2019-11-27T02:12:04Z fe[nl]ix: yep
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2019-11-27T04:16:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-27T04:35:08Z ebrasca: Good morning!
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2019-11-27T04:35:47Z Josh_2: Mornin
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2019-11-27T08:16:27Z pjb: Clojure in CL: https://github.com/ruricolist/cloture
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2019-11-27T08:18:01Z jackdaniel: so now you may define a closure in clojure running on clozure?
2019-11-27T08:18:22Z jackdaniel: what a time  to be alive!\
2019-11-27T08:18:28Z pjb: Yep.
2019-11-27T08:18:46Z no-defun-allowed: I'm going to need some closure on when the closure punning will end.
2019-11-27T08:19:38Z jackdaniel: closure in clojure running on clozure by means of cloture°
2019-11-27T08:20:44Z no-defun-allowed: Then can one run CL on Clozure and create a loop of transpilation?
2019-11-27T08:20:50Z no-defun-allowed: *Clojure
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2019-11-27T08:33:37Z flip214: hmmm, so I need to provide a project "common lisp open source software using recommended evals" or something like that - and call it cloßure, I guess.
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2019-11-27T08:42:26Z pjb: flip214: you want to be in the clojuration!
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2019-11-27T08:54:26Z phoe: clo*ure
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2019-11-27T08:57:00Z jackdaniel: clo?ure is arguably more correct (if I understand your pun right)
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2019-11-27T09:01:29Z flip214: jackdaniel: no shell patterns, please....  /^clo.ure$/
2019-11-27T09:01:42Z jackdaniel: :-)
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2019-11-27T09:12:23Z phoe: /^[Cc]lo.ure$/
2019-11-27T09:12:25Z phoe:  /^[Cc]lo.ure$/
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2019-11-27T10:12:21Z Cymew: lukego: About that discussion yesterday about quicklisp, asdf and finding files to load, have you seen this: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#How-can-I-debug-problems-finding-ASDF-systems it might be of some help, hopefully.
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2019-11-27T12:47:06Z easye: Cymew: thanks for the docs on ASDF.  Definitely a better starting place than existed before for users to get useful information.
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2019-11-27T14:13:09Z pfdietz: I could use a javascript in CL.  There's an implemenetation described in cliki, but it's like nine years old.
2019-11-27T14:13:24Z Josh_2: like parenscript?
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2019-11-27T14:14:55Z pfdietz: No, that's generating js from a lisp-like syntax, right?
2019-11-27T14:14:59Z Josh_2: Yeh
2019-11-27T14:15:05Z pfdietz: Sort of the opposite.
2019-11-27T14:15:10Z jackdaniel: yes, parenscript is a transpiler of cl subset to js
2019-11-27T14:15:40Z jackdaniel: pfdietz: this? https://marijnhaverbeke.nl/cl-javascript/
2019-11-27T14:15:57Z pfdietz: Yes.  Last commits from 2012.
2019-11-27T14:16:06Z jackdaniel: it seems to have the last commit in 2018
2019-11-27T14:16:11Z pfdietz: Really?
2019-11-27T14:16:11Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/akapav/js
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2019-11-27T14:16:41Z jackdaniel: and then two commits in 2016, a few in 2015
2019-11-27T14:16:47Z jackdaniel: etc
2019-11-27T14:17:06Z pfdietz: Ok.
2019-11-27T14:17:10Z jackdaniel: it doesn't look like an abandonware (though not very active)
2019-11-27T14:18:18Z p_l: parenscript is about easy writing of JS from CL. There's also JSCL which attempts to implement a proper CL in JS
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2019-11-27T14:36:44Z Cymew: easye: I need that myself sometimes, and fare was kind enought to provide some debug suggestions which Robert has now put in the manual. That is good, as I will forget my note about it... ;)
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2019-11-27T15:26:02Z Kabriel: hey http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ is back up!
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2019-11-27T15:32:39Z phoe: yes, it had a brief hiccup
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2019-11-27T16:18:01Z ebrasca: Hi , I like to make hunchentoot work in Mezzano
2019-11-27T16:18:23Z ebrasca: It don't gives webpage in my browser and it don't give any error.
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2019-11-27T17:08:14Z flip214: is there some game programming environment like Unity in CL?
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2019-11-27T17:10:43Z oni-on-ion: flip214, perhaps check in #lispgames
2019-11-27T17:11:04Z oni-on-ion: they seem up to date on what CL gamedev tools are happenin
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2019-11-27T17:36:43Z anlsh: Hi, can anyone tell me how exactly I can submit a patch to the Alexandria gitlab? I went over to the merge requests tab, saw the "email new merge request" tab, clicked it, and it gave me an email.
2019-11-27T17:37:30Z anlsh: It seems like I need to send an email to the generated address with a subject of the url to my branch
2019-11-27T17:37:54Z _phoe: anish: do you have a gitlab.common-lisp.net account?
2019-11-27T17:38:14Z anlsh: But also the "fork" button on the project is disabled, so do I just need to create a bare repo to push it up?
2019-11-27T17:38:21Z anlsh: I do
2019-11-27T17:38:35Z _phoe: anish: the fork button is disabled if you have hit the max project limit on your account
2019-11-27T17:38:57Z _phoe: poke ehuelsmann on #common-lisp.net, he'll be able to help
2019-11-27T17:39:17Z anlsh: I've got nothing on this account though, I created it yesterday :|
2019-11-27T17:39:32Z _phoe: oh
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2019-11-27T17:39:40Z _phoe: in this case, poke ehuelsmann on #common-lisp.net, he'll be able to help
2019-11-27T17:39:47Z anlsh: gotcha
2019-11-27T17:39:56Z _phoe: he's the admin of that gitlab instance
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2019-11-27T17:45:04Z anlsh: alexandria's readme should also be updated too, since it still says to submit patches to the mailing list
2019-11-27T17:45:06Z refusenick: Are there any resources on compilers for image-based languages like Lisp?
2019-11-27T17:45:42Z _phoe: anish: correct
2019-11-27T17:45:58Z _phoe: feel free to make an issue on the repository stating that :D
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2019-11-27T17:48:26Z luis: clhs ~<
2019-11-27T17:48:26Z specbot: Matches: ~</justification, ~</logical-block.
2019-11-27T17:48:38Z luis: clhs ~</logical-block
2019-11-27T17:48:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ceb.htm
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2019-11-27T17:56:07Z anlsh: More of a lisp question in general, are you not supposed to export new symbols when updating a package?
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2019-11-27T17:56:19Z anlsh: see https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/issues/10
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2019-11-27T17:57:15Z refusenick: The "cells" library has me thinking: would it make sense to have a graph database consisting of queries to a network of CLOS objects?
2019-11-27T17:57:29Z refusenick: I suppose it's more interesting as a thought experiment than something practical.
2019-11-27T17:57:42Z Xach: refusenick: there were once commercial dbs like that
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2019-11-27T17:57:59Z Xach: refusenick: Statice was one, from Symbolics
2019-11-27T17:58:07Z refusenick: Xach: You're kidding me. That's the coolest thing I've heard all week.
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2019-11-27T17:58:21Z Xach: There's a chapter about it in a database book I have, let me find the name of it...
2019-11-27T17:58:25Z refusenick: I'll look for them on my own, but do you know if there are whitepapers on it?
2019-11-27T17:58:31Z refusenick: oh, awesome!
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2019-11-27T17:59:50Z Xach: Hmm, I'll have to dig a little. I can't find it from a quick googling. It's on my bookshelf somewhere.
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2019-11-27T18:00:21Z Xach: Joe Marshall also wrote a series of blog posts about versioned persistent CLOS objects in a project called ChangeSafe. I think the code (not finished?) is public for that, too.
2019-11-27T18:00:41Z refusenick: Lisp is a compiled language, but for the kind of long-running, distributed systems becoming more and more common, a homoiconic representation seems ideal for runtime optimization. Is there any work on CLOS and partial evaluation?
2019-11-27T18:02:32Z Xach: refusenick: like recompiling hotspots at runtime?
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2019-11-27T18:02:45Z refusenick: Xach. Yeah. Automatically tracking versioned objects and picking up on optimizations missed by the programmer could be a good way to compete with static languages.
2019-11-27T18:03:13Z Xach: Nobody is doing that for Common Lisp implementations.
2019-11-27T18:03:24Z Xach: Everything is AOT-oriented.
2019-11-27T18:03:50Z refusenick: I know I'll get flak for this, but I can't see CL being the language of the future because it doesn't have security.
2019-11-27T18:04:21Z _phoe: security as in?
2019-11-27T18:04:22Z Xach: What kind of security should it add?
2019-11-27T18:04:26Z refusenick: I know there's ongoing work to support it via first class environments, but it might be easier from the ground up, with support for CL built atop.
2019-11-27T18:04:35Z _phoe: ohh, you mean sandboxing and such
2019-11-27T18:04:35Z refusenick: CLOS objects don't offer encapsulation
2019-11-27T18:04:39Z refusenick: yeah
2019-11-27T18:04:58Z _phoe: this is a big sore point, correct, and first-class global environments are meant to solve exactly this.
2019-11-27T18:05:15Z _phoe: Nowadays, if you have access to a Lisp REPL, you basically own the Lisp image.
2019-11-27T18:05:31Z _phoe: This effectively prevents multiuser usage of a single image.
2019-11-27T18:06:43Z refusenick: Might it be easier to build a language wholely out of first class environments a la Kernel or Io and provide a compiler to this from a minimal core of CL (tagbodies and other primitives) to compile each module into its own proper sandbox and fix interop issues as they arise?
2019-11-27T18:07:01Z _phoe: refusenick: SICL is a project that has it in scope.
2019-11-27T18:07:20Z refusenick: Right, SICL. I remember seeing that name the last time I read about this.
2019-11-27T18:07:35Z _phoe: Or rather, you don't need to build a language wholely out of FCE - you simply need a way to chroot like in all unices.
2019-11-27T18:07:49Z _phoe: This is your global environment, and you have no way to break yourself out of it.
2019-11-27T18:08:13Z _phoe: You only have access to CONS, CAR, CDR and NIL here.
2019-11-27T18:08:17Z _phoe: Good luck!
2019-11-27T18:08:37Z _phoe: Something like that should mostly be enough.
2019-11-27T18:08:38Z _phoe: But then
2019-11-27T18:08:51Z _phoe: With all the interactve languages like Python, Ruby, Perl and so on
2019-11-27T18:08:55Z _phoe: Do *these* have security?
2019-11-27T18:09:04Z _phoe: They all have REPLs, they can even have their own REPL servers listening
2019-11-27T18:09:05Z refusenick: They don't, but anything new should.
2019-11-27T18:09:07Z Xach: I am not overfond of "everyone else is bad" arguments
2019-11-27T18:09:17Z refusenick: Lisp is already better than them, but it's still not good enough.
2019-11-27T18:09:18Z _phoe: Why would Lisp be any different?
2019-11-27T18:09:32Z _phoe: I can agree with that
2019-11-27T18:09:38Z Xach: I am also not especially persuaded by "if you don't do X lisp will die", because Lisp has been dead for a while.
2019-11-27T18:09:47Z Shinmera: This is probably gonna get drowned out in the current debate, but I made some good progress with Alloy and am really starting to like the widget system I came up with. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-NJrJqDkrQ
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2019-11-27T18:10:39Z Xach: Shinmera: cool. what does it use as the backend?
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2019-11-27T18:11:01Z Xach: by that i mean what is drawing on the screen and making windows and such
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2019-11-27T18:12:00Z Shinmera: It's a chain of Alloy -> Simple -> SimpleGL -> Trial (my game engine). You can also use an independent GLFW backend for the last part, or implement the Simple interface for different renderers.
2019-11-27T18:12:18Z Xach: cool
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2019-11-27T18:13:24Z Shinmera: The GLFW backend allows making multiple top-level windows, but Trial does not (because I don't need it there)
2019-11-27T18:13:42Z refusenick: Shinmera: I was about to dive into learning everything about CEPL to make an animation backend for Maxima, but now I'm conflicted!
2019-11-27T18:14:02Z Shinmera: Hah
2019-11-27T18:14:03Z refusenick: This also seems like exactly what I'm looking for!
2019-11-27T18:14:14Z refusenick: The Lisp Curse strikes again!
2019-11-27T18:14:30Z refusenick: All the options are good! aaaah
2019-11-27T18:14:31Z Shinmera: I wouldn't mind a CEPL backend for Alloy :)
2019-11-27T18:14:55Z refusenick: So CEPL is lower-level?
2019-11-27T18:15:10Z Shinmera: Sort of
2019-11-27T18:15:12Z refusenick: Alloy is more like a quick GUI/graphics development framework?
2019-11-27T18:15:24Z Shinmera: Alloy is a UI toolkit, yes.
2019-11-27T18:15:44Z Shinmera: The SimpleGL extension it provides and I use directly uses GL though, whereas CEPL wraps all GL access in a lispy framework
2019-11-27T18:16:03Z refusenick: CEPL is probably what I'm looking for, then. Maxima is perfect for me until I want to animate something.
2019-11-27T18:16:46Z refusenick: (kind of a problem since I want to study dynamical systems, plus I'm taking a class on differential equations next semester)
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2019-11-27T18:18:30Z refusenick: A lot of Lisp projects seem to work out of the box with SLIME. I use Sly, though, because I like the defaults. I remember having some issues connecting to Stumpwm when I used that. Anyone here live-program Maxima with SLIME or Sly?
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2019-11-27T18:23:07Z refusenick: I might use Alloy if the Haskell animation I'm working on doesn't pan out. I briefly tried to animate things in a Jupyter notebook with Python as a backup, but it didn't work. Maybe I've just gotten used to Emacs, but Lisp works correctly on first tries than most other languages. I didn't go for it this time because I wasn't aware of a ready-made high level visualization library!
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2019-11-27T18:23:28Z refusenick: on first tries more than*
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2019-11-27T18:24:16Z Shinmera: Cool
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2019-11-27T18:36:55Z refusenick: If a Lisp program restricted itself to CLOS objects (no non-object primitives like car and cdr - not everything is CLOS, right?), could it be 1-to-1 mapped to a pure OO language like Dylan?
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2019-11-27T18:38:41Z refusenick: A more relevant question, I suppose, is whether CLOS and related systems have a equational theory.
2019-11-27T18:39:09Z Shinmera: every value is an object
2019-11-27T18:39:20Z Shinmera: and every object has a class
2019-11-27T18:39:32Z refusenick: Are cons cells objects?
2019-11-27T18:39:39Z Shinmera: I said every value, yes.
2019-11-27T18:40:05Z Xach: Not everything is an instance of standard-class
2019-11-27T18:40:07Z Shinmera: Not every object is an instance of a standard-class, however.
2019-11-27T18:40:11Z Xach hi5
2019-11-27T18:40:18Z Shinmera smacks
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2019-11-27T18:40:25Z refusenick: lol
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2019-11-27T18:40:43Z Shinmera: Anyway, CLOS does not map well to message passing because of multimethods
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2019-11-27T18:41:29Z Shinmera: But you can implement more traditional OO systems in CLOS.
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2019-11-27T18:42:25Z refusenick: Shinmera: For what it's worth, unrestricted message passing also appears to be in a rut equationally - Io's semantics are  equivalent to Kernel's, IIRC, and we still don't know how to AOT compile that (mostly because there's no incentive to study it)
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2019-11-27T18:43:00Z refusenick: More restricted message passing systems like the pi calculus have equational theories and can be compiled though, IIRC
2019-11-27T18:43:36Z refusenick: Are the capabilities of reflective multiple dispatch OO systems a strict superset of message passing objects?
2019-11-27T18:43:48Z Shinmera: I don't know about any rigorous mathematical formulations of CLOS.
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2019-11-27T18:47:59Z refusenick: I remember reading that Shutt proved that unrestricted reflection a la 3 Lisp (the real target of Wand's paper against fexprs) truly does have a trivial equational theory because the ability to jump between levels exceeds what continuations can represent, or something like that.
2019-11-27T18:48:35Z refusenick: Clearly, CLOS is compiled, though, and I even remember seeing papers on optimizing it.
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2019-11-27T19:03:21Z beach: refusenick: There is no reason to construct the full language from a subset of it.  You can still have first-class global environments with appropriate sandboxing.
2019-11-27T19:03:58Z beach: refusenick: Also, CLOS is neither compiled nor interpreted.  It is a specification of a bunch of protocols.
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2019-11-27T19:06:34Z beach: refusenick: I use SICL first-class global environments for bootstrapping right now.  That way I can isolate the host Common Lisp system from the SICL code that I am building.  But in the final system, I plan to use first-class global environments to restrict access to internal code that could make the entire system unsafe.
2019-11-27T19:06:36Z beach: For example, the default environment will not let the user have access to the code generator of the compiler.
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2019-11-27T19:07:03Z refusenick: beach: Doesn't it make optimization and reasoning about your code easier if it's built from a few composable core components?
2019-11-27T19:07:23Z refusenick: I'm not a functional programming zealot, but I appreciated Backus's line of argument.
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2019-11-27T19:08:49Z beach: refusenick: That might be true, but it turns out to be extremely painful to restrict oneself to a language subset.  I can't do it myself.  And it makes maintenance very delicate because every module must have documentation about what subset it is allowed to be written in.
2019-11-27T19:09:30Z beach: refusenick: I am betting that the metacircular aspect of Common Lisp can be exploited in order to increase confidence in its correction.
2019-11-27T19:09:35Z refusenick: beach: You have much more experience with this than me (I have almost none - I've just read about it for now). Do tell.
2019-11-27T19:10:32Z beach: I am not sure what else to tell you.  But there are two examples in our ELS paper on bootstrapping that shows the twisted code that is required if you must start with a subset.
2019-11-27T19:10:42Z refusenick: To me, Lisp's killer feature is how its semantic uniformity allows boilerplate composition to be conveniently hidden while still mapping surface syntax to operational semantics in a 1-to-1 fashion.
2019-11-27T19:10:57Z beach: It has to do with defining classes if you don't already have their metaclasses available.
2019-11-27T19:11:02Z ebrasca: beach: What if you need to change this core components?
2019-11-27T19:11:29Z beach: ebrasca: I change the definition and re-run the boot procedure.
2019-11-27T19:11:33Z refusenick: What about a prototype-based system? I've read about multiple dispatch systems built on prototypical objects.
2019-11-27T19:11:34Z beach: I have already done it.
2019-11-27T19:11:58Z refusenick: It might even have been your stuff! Strandh, right?
2019-11-27T19:12:13Z beach: ebrasca: Doing it the other way is worse.  Then you will very likely have the same information duplicated, so you have to make sure every occurrence is in sync.
2019-11-27T19:12:54Z beach: refusenick: Yes, that's me.  But I don't recall having written anything about prototype systems.
2019-11-27T19:13:04Z refusenick: It must have been somewhere else, then.
2019-11-27T19:13:21Z beach: refusenick: Maybe you mean something else by "prototypical objects".
2019-11-27T19:13:33Z refusenick: like Self, JS, Io, etc
2019-11-27T19:13:41Z beach: Ah, yes.  Not my stuff.
2019-11-27T19:13:54Z refusenick: I know I've seen a hobbyist blogpost about it
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2019-11-27T19:14:19Z refusenick: I think there was an academic paper, but it's been over 2 years since I seriously read into this.
2019-11-27T19:14:33Z beach: refusenick: I can write (defclass t () (:metaclass built-in-class)) in SICL.   That is very metacircular, but on the other hand, the meaning is clear, and it is my job to make it operational, which is what the boot procedure is for.
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2019-11-27T19:15:31Z refusenick: Would it make sense to define the image itself as a directed graph database of definitional dependencies on other objects, with restrictions on circularity?
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2019-11-27T19:16:19Z beach: refusenick: Not if you want CLOS.  The graph is inherently circular.
2019-11-27T19:16:58Z beach: refusenick: But during bootstrapping, I build an acyclic graph, and then "tie the knot" (which is a paper I am working on).
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2019-11-27T19:17:56Z refusenick: So graph theory does figure into it?
2019-11-27T19:19:04Z beach: Not really.  The thing is that the graph is best described as the result of the execution of Common Lisp code.  Hence the bootstrapping procedure.  Otherwise, one might have imagined just describing the graph as such.  But that's not practical.
2019-11-27T19:19:40Z beach: It is not practical, because of changes as a result of maintenance.
2019-11-27T19:19:52Z refusenick: If one has a graph of CLOS objects at runtime, can the set of them be separated into equivalence classes based on their relations to one another?
2019-11-27T19:20:16Z refusenick: There are optimization techniques such as supercompilation which symbolically execute code to optimize it. That might be a good fit.
2019-11-27T19:20:33Z beach: If you want to add a slot to a class, if you have a direct description of the graph, it would be impractical to edit it with confidence.  But you can add a slot to a DEFCLASS form and rerun the boot procedure.
2019-11-27T19:21:20Z refusenick: It sounds like it's inching closer and closer to a database's functionality for maintaining consistency and such
2019-11-27T19:21:24Z beach: You can always define equivalence classes.  But I doubt they would be semantically meaningful, other than the trivial relations.
2019-11-27T19:21:46Z refusenick: I don't know a terrible lot about CS and programming, certainly not databases, so feel free to correct me.
2019-11-27T19:22:29Z beach: I don't know much about databases either, other than the ones that are commonly used and that in my opinion do something that I absolutely do not want.
2019-11-27T19:23:12Z refusenick: I'm not thinking of SQL databases, but rather graph databases
2019-11-27T19:23:20Z beach: Yes, I understand.
2019-11-27T19:24:01Z beach: Anyway, I'm off to spend time with my (admittedly small) family.  I'll be back tomorrow morning (UTC+1).  Feel free to join #sicl for more technical discussions about my design choices.
2019-11-27T19:24:29Z refusenick: Will consider! I have lots of work to do myself, but maybe I'll find some time.
2019-11-27T19:24:49Z beach: OK, see you around.
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2019-11-27T19:50:49Z alandipert: refusenick i too perceive a lot of overlap with OOP/type systems and databases fwiw, i also find it an interesting thing to think about
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2019-11-27T20:10:10Z scymtym: refusenick: https://github.com/sbcl/specializable/tree/master/src/prototype-specializer is one example of making a prototype-based system with (a slight superset of) CLOS. example is here: https://github.com/sbcl/specializable/blob/master/examples/prototype-specializer.lisp
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2019-11-27T20:24:44Z lottaquestions: Hi all, I am new to lisp, and was going through someone else's code, and he appears to be instantiating an object of a class in a list without using the make-instance function. How does that work? I thought make-instance was mandatory when instantiating objects in CLOS
2019-11-27T20:25:54Z copec: Can you show us what you're looking at lottaquestions
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2019-11-27T20:28:44Z lottaquestions: Check out https://github.com/wzrdsappr/trading-core/blob/master/examples/backtesting-simulation.lisp
2019-11-27T20:29:11Z lottaquestions: line 30
2019-11-27T20:29:52Z lottaquestions: (defparameter *agent-specs*  `((simple-model :L 89)    (channel-breakout-trend-following :fast-period 89 :slow-period 211)    (envelope-moving-avg-trend-following :N 89 :width 3.2)    (adaptive-moving-avg-trend-following     :min-period 59 :max-period 126 :width-factor 3.2 :snr-factor 0.5)    (fractal-ama-trend-following :max-period 200 :min-period
2019-11-27T20:29:53Z lottaquestions: 10 :fractal-length 126)    (opening-range-breakout :volatility-limit 1.5 :N 21)    (range-projection-mean-reversion :N 34 :projection-interval :week)    (swing-breakout :event-count 21 :expected-width 1.5 :price-extension 2.0)    (swing-mean-reversion :event-count 21 :expected-width 2.0 :max-allowed-breakout 1.5)))
2019-11-27T20:30:25Z copec: It is just a quoted list at that point
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2019-11-27T20:30:48Z lottaquestions: actually. I thought it woudn't evaluate any of the forms
2019-11-27T20:30:50Z lottaquestions: but it does
2019-11-27T20:31:00Z lottaquestions: the first form "simple-model"
2019-11-27T20:31:05Z lottaquestions: is actually a class
2019-11-27T20:31:27Z lottaquestions: that get's instantiated
2019-11-27T20:31:29Z sjl_: https://github.com/wzrdsappr/trading-core/blob/master/examples/backtesting-simulation.lisp#L46 is where make-instance is called
2019-11-27T20:31:45Z sjl_: (apply #'make-instance `(,@agent-specs :security ,security))
2019-11-27T20:32:32Z lottaquestions: Nice !!
2019-11-27T20:32:37Z lottaquestions: Thanks
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2019-11-27T20:33:00Z lottaquestions: There is I reason I identified myself as a newb
2019-11-27T20:33:02Z lottaquestions: :-)
2019-11-27T20:33:55Z lottaquestions: OK a follow up question
2019-11-27T20:34:21Z copec: I call myself a perpetual newb++
2019-11-27T20:34:35Z copec: One of the biggest things you can do for yourself is to try stuff on the repl
2019-11-27T20:34:53Z jackdaniel: (incf newb) ;_)
2019-11-27T20:35:01Z _death: mpv https://adeht.org/dump/vid-2019-11-27T2221.mp4
2019-11-27T20:35:27Z _death: for some repl fun
2019-11-27T20:37:23Z copec: What environment is that _death
2019-11-27T20:37:32Z copec: It's very nice looking
2019-11-27T20:38:16Z _death: imgui+ecl
2019-11-27T20:39:19Z lottaquestions: Wow! I am blown away _death
2019-11-27T20:39:53Z _death: https://adeht.org/dump/vids.html for some earlier work
2019-11-27T20:40:11Z jackdaniel: Demosthenex: looks very nice
2019-11-27T20:40:15Z jackdaniel: _death: °
2019-11-27T20:40:26Z jackdaniel: is the code public?
2019-11-27T20:40:39Z _death: not yet
2019-11-27T20:41:01Z jackdaniel: if you decide to publish it please ping me when you do
2019-11-27T20:41:27Z _death: sure.. maybe before the next ELS :)
2019-11-27T20:41:39Z copec: So is that emacs using imgui? Or something you rolled?
2019-11-27T20:42:18Z copec: Or a split between an emacs and the imgui pipeline
2019-11-27T20:42:41Z jackdaniel: copec: it seems that imgui runs in the same process as ecl while emacs provides only swank connection
2019-11-27T20:43:03Z _death: copec: it's a C++ program that embeds ECL and has imgui and bindings for it.. it loads a lisp file, and the first thing that's done is to start a swank server, so I can connect using slime
2019-11-27T20:43:40Z _death: copec: it wouldn't be difficult to add a text editor and be "self contained" but for development emacs/slime is just too convenient :)
2019-11-27T20:44:01Z copec: Very cool work _death
2019-11-27T20:44:47Z lottaquestions: I concur copec, very cool work _death
2019-11-27T20:45:01Z _death: thanks
2019-11-27T20:48:50Z _death: ecl great, so thanks to jackdaniel :)
2019-11-27T20:49:43Z copec: I haven't attempted anything but simple FFI, how difficult was it to get ecl+imgui going?
2019-11-27T20:49:44Z _death: previously I used it with tic-80, if you want to see how easy it is to embed.. https://github.com/death/TIC-80
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2019-11-27T20:56:49Z _death: copec: it's not difficult, but writing bindings by hand can be a bit boring so progress is slow.. a few functions every now and then, and it's about 80% complete now, I'd say
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2019-11-28T00:47:54Z fengshaun: I've heard of common lisp's superior debuggability, and I've seen sbcl dropping me to a debugger to poke around. where should I go to learn things I don't know that I don't know. i.e. how to be super effective in debugging cl
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2019-11-28T00:48:19Z fengshaun: I feel like there is a lot of stuff in CL's debug-land that I don't know is possible
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2019-11-28T00:52:30Z pjb: fengshaun: there are different debuggers.  Each implementation has its own.  And there are debuggers that work with a lot of different implementations (eg. slime).
2019-11-28T00:52:56Z pjb: fengshaun: the best way would be to read the user manual of both the implementation and of slime (since I would advise you to use slime when possible).
2019-11-28T00:53:03Z fengshaun: I'm using sbcl and slime, but I think I'm not using it properly
2019-11-28T00:53:37Z fengshaun: any resources to give a quick overview of what's possible so I can go deep later as need arises?
2019-11-28T00:53:38Z pjb: fengshaun: also good, is to write your own debugging facilities. For example, I wrote a stepper (cl-stepper), since some implementation don't provide cl:step, and most do a crude job at it.
2019-11-28T00:54:12Z Xach: fengshaun: i think i use v and t on frames the most in the slime debugger. v jumps to the location of the error (if there is high enough debug at compile time) and t shows the value of local variables (ditto)
2019-11-28T00:54:12Z pjb: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Debugger.html#Debugger
2019-11-28T00:54:26Z Xach: fengshaun: i haven't tried the stepper lately. i don't know if it works nicely for sbcl.
2019-11-28T00:54:50Z Xach: aside from the debugger, tracing is very handy
2019-11-28T00:55:37Z Xach: sly has a feature that looks neat called stickers but i didn't stick with it long enough to really get a feel for them
2019-11-28T00:56:10Z fengshaun: tracing sounds nice
2019-11-28T00:56:15Z pjb: fengshaun: notably, what we still don't have is a time travelling debugger.
2019-11-28T00:56:27Z fengshaun: I was hoping for a shorter read than the user manual to get a feel for all features before diving deep
2019-11-28T00:56:32Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel_debugging
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2019-11-28T00:57:14Z Xach: Hmm, I don't know of something like that offhand
2019-11-28T00:57:48Z pjb: fengshaun: then just enter into the debugger (evaluate (break) in the slime REPL), and type C-h m
2019-11-28T00:58:10Z pjb: This gives you a summary of the most important commands for the current mode (sldb).
2019-11-28T00:58:48Z fengshaun: ah that sounds like a good start, thanks
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2019-11-28T01:01:05Z nirved_: fengshaun: you might want to check "Common Lisp Recipes"
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2019-11-28T01:02:00Z fengshaun: dead tree book?
2019-11-28T01:02:51Z fengshaun: or the cookbook?
2019-11-28T01:03:09Z nirved_: dead-tree/ebook
2019-11-28T01:03:42Z nirved_: http://weitz.de/cl-recipes/
2019-11-28T01:03:43Z fengshaun: thanks, I haven't looked at that one
2019-11-28T01:05:04Z fengshaun: thanks
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2019-11-28T01:22:54Z copec: The thing I miss from my sysadmin career is being able to dtrace
2019-11-28T01:23:33Z copec: I should read the source, and figure out how to make sbcl providers
2019-11-28T01:29:05Z pjb: copec: just switch back to linux and you'll be able to use strace.
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2019-11-28T01:31:03Z copec: dtrace allows an arbitrary level of inspection, it allows you to group cross-cutting concerns arbitrarily
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2019-11-28T01:32:02Z copec: strace is just for system calls
2019-11-28T01:32:49Z copec: I use linux desktop and smartos for all my servers
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2019-11-28T01:33:06Z copec: arbitrary dtrace like ability is on linux
2019-11-28T01:33:08Z copec: http://www.brendangregg.com/linuxperf.html
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2019-11-28T01:33:31Z copec: For userland apps it uses the same type of instrumentation as dtrace providers
2019-11-28T01:33:33Z p_l: bpftrace and related can use DTrace tracepoints, which kinda became "standard"
2019-11-28T01:34:00Z p_l: I'm not sure about equivalent of dtrace helpers for dynamic generated code that isn't represented in binary's DWARF data
2019-11-28T01:34:32Z p_l: most of the time it's "dump a file named according to template X in /tmp that contains symbol data in this format"
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2019-11-28T02:23:43Z pjb: p_l: you could patch a CL compiler to generate DWARF at the same time it generates code dynamically.
2019-11-28T02:29:01Z mister_m: i find myself wanting to traverse a list and use those list values to populate a hash table. My first instinct is to define a hash table in a let statement, and in the body of that statement have a dolist expression where i modify the hash table. Is there a better way to do this?
2019-11-28T02:30:30Z mister_m: I'd use a reduce perhaps in JS but I'm having a bit of trouble with CL's reduce in doing this
2019-11-28T02:36:40Z Xach: mister_m: the initial approach is a fine way to do it
2019-11-28T02:43:33Z mister_m: I'll run with that
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2019-11-28T03:33:04Z drmeister: Clasp generates dwarf
2019-11-28T03:33:24Z drmeister: We use it with dtr ace all the time.
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2019-11-28T03:38:18Z loke: mister_m: what form is the source list in?
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2019-11-28T04:56:07Z pjb: mister_m: if you like reduce go ahead!  (reduce (lambda (h e) (setf (gethash (car e) h) (cdr e)) h)  '((a . 1) (b . 2) (c . 3)) :initial-value (make-hash-table))
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2019-11-28T06:20:12Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-11-28T06:26:16Z ebrasca: Morning!
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2019-11-28T06:35:10Z p_l: pjb: the linux perftools format is essentially "drop a file named after PID with table of `address:symbol name`". DWARF is only used for static data. DTrace OTOH had essentially a callback interface that you could implement top return the data
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2019-11-28T16:27:55Z Josh_2: When I load my package with ql:quickload I get a file-error saying that it can't find my packages files in #P"/tmp/src/.." why is asdf looking in tmp and not the folder where the system is defined?
2019-11-28T16:27:59Z Josh_2: What have I messed up xD
2019-11-28T16:30:04Z jackdaniel: maybe you did C-c C-c on the system definition?
2019-11-28T16:30:11Z jackdaniel: instead of loading the asd file
2019-11-28T16:30:29Z Josh_2: ah
2019-11-28T16:30:31Z Josh_2: I probably did do that
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2019-11-28T16:53:50Z Josh_2: (ql:register-local-projects) is how I get quicklisp to search for new asd files right?
2019-11-28T16:54:03Z Josh_2: new systems
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2019-11-28T17:00:45Z Josh_2: quicklisp is not finding my new system, I have added a symbolic link to my local-projects, my system name shares the same name as the .asd files but when I register-local-projects It's not found
2019-11-28T17:03:01Z jackdaniel: I think that you are confused of what looks where
2019-11-28T17:03:13Z _death: (map 'list #'ql::local-project-system-files ql::*local-project-directories*)
2019-11-28T17:03:17Z jackdaniel: ql's register-local-projects indeed looks only in quicklisp's local projects directory
2019-11-28T17:03:27Z jackdaniel: or to be more precise directories mentioned by _death
2019-11-28T17:03:46Z jackdaniel: asdf is responsible for locating asd files in its "registry" locations
2019-11-28T17:04:06Z jackdaniel: i.e (asdf:locate-system "alexandria")
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2019-11-28T17:05:46Z Josh_2: jackdaniel: but register-local-projects follow symbolic links right?
2019-11-28T17:05:53Z Josh_2: so why wouldn't it find my defined system
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2019-11-28T17:06:29Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: is your asd file directly in the linked directory? also what implementation do you use?
2019-11-28T17:06:40Z Josh_2: No It's not directly linked
2019-11-28T17:06:49Z Josh_2: I'm having this trouble with ccl
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2019-11-28T17:07:13Z jackdaniel: also it is not clear whether symbolic links will get followed, this is undefined behavior territory common-lisp wise
2019-11-28T17:07:18Z Josh_2: ah
2019-11-28T17:07:26Z Josh_2: well it works on sbcl :O
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2019-11-28T17:07:50Z jackdaniel: I'll tell you even more: if you register local projects with sbcl and start ccl anew then you will probably be able to load your system
2019-11-28T17:08:01Z jackdaniel: because they are already registered
2019-11-28T17:08:09Z jackdaniel: (or indexed if you like)
2019-11-28T17:08:10Z Josh_2: hmm
2019-11-28T17:08:16Z Josh_2: well I don't have sbcl on the raspberry pi
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2019-11-28T17:08:53Z Josh_2: That's a bit of a pita just to register a project, I think I'll just do my work in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ instead
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2019-11-28T17:10:17Z _death: Josh_2: that's what I do.. I also have another local-projects directory for third-party systems..
2019-11-28T17:11:00Z Josh_2: on my main machine I just have a symbolic link to my ~/documents/ and quicklisp finds all my asd files ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2019-11-28T17:46:08Z Josh_2: When using a foreign library do I include it in my defsystem?
2019-11-28T17:46:37Z Josh_2: I'm trying to use a foreign library but sly is looking in /tmp/ for it
2019-11-28T17:51:37Z mfiano2: You include the lisp wrapper in your defsystem.
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2019-11-28T17:52:35Z Josh_2: Is there an example of this somewhere?
2019-11-28T17:53:08Z mfiano2: Anything that depends on a library that depends on cffi
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2019-11-28T18:28:58Z phoe: hellooooo
2019-11-28T18:29:05Z Josh_2: hi
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2019-11-28T19:06:00Z Josh_2: How do I determine the base directory of my system?
2019-11-28T19:06:31Z Josh_2: I need to specify the location of my .so file and I want to make it relative to my system instead of specifying an exact path
2019-11-28T19:06:55Z jackdaniel: (asdf:component-pathname (asdf:find-system "boohoo")) or something like that
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2019-11-28T19:13:43Z Josh_2: hmm alrighty thanks
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2019-11-28T19:33:12Z mister_m: I am trying ot use uiop:split-string to split a couple lines I am reading from a file by newline to create a list I can process. I am invoking (uiop:split-string lines :separator '(#\Newline)), but i get a single element list with the same string as the lines value I am passing to split-string. Am I missing something here? Does #\Newline not mean what I think it does?
2019-11-28T19:36:51Z _death: try (map 'list #'identity lines)
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2019-11-28T19:38:24Z _death: also, why not read the file line by line?
2019-11-28T19:38:28Z mister_m: that's clever I'll remember that - looks like there is indeed a #\Newline in there
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2019-11-28T19:41:42Z mister_m: _death: well, technically I am using a regex to extract a block of a file and working with those lines directly
2019-11-28T19:43:29Z mister_m: ah I got it - looks like a silly mistake
2019-11-28T19:43:42Z mister_m: _death: thanks for that tip though
2019-11-28T19:44:48Z _death: you can also use slime to inspect the string
2019-11-28T19:45:26Z mister_m: if I have it in a defvar how can that be done
2019-11-28T19:45:45Z _death: C-c I *my-string* RET
2019-11-28T19:46:28Z _death: or you can right click on the value and choose Inspect (slime-presentations)
2019-11-28T19:46:58Z mister_m: oooh fancy. I am still picking up some slime tricks, that one will be well used
2019-11-28T19:47:31Z _death: the inspector is very useful
2019-11-28T19:48:04Z mister_m: I already know that I've been missing it haha
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2019-11-28T20:07:39Z Josh_2: can an integer be coerced into an array of It's bits? I want to access each bit in an integer individually
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2019-11-28T20:12:30Z phoe: Josh_2: you can use LDB and DPB for that
2019-11-28T20:12:39Z phoe: and never leave the world of integers
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2019-11-28T20:16:40Z Josh_2: I thought so
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2019-11-28T20:19:04Z jcowan: I need help translating a non-CL LOOP construct into idiomatic CL LOOP.  Of course I could use lower-level code instead, but I think it would be better to use LOOP here.  Anybody feel like looking at this?
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2019-11-28T20:19:16Z phoe: ok
2019-11-28T20:25:09Z lukego: Hey is it possible to do SBCL20 as a "one dayer"? Like, arrive early morning, leave late night, do some meaningful talking with people in between? If so which date would work?
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2019-11-28T22:12:35Z anlsh: Can anyone help me debug geiser-mode a bit :| None of my evaluation/send to repl functions seem to work
2019-11-28T22:13:41Z LdBeth: Do you have started geiser
2019-11-28T22:15:10Z anlsh: Yup, so after running geiser-set-scheme I can run geiser-mode-switch-to-repl from the buffer and one will pop up
2019-11-28T22:15:34Z anlsh: It switches me over from the source buffer to the repl too.
2019-11-28T22:15:43Z jackdaniel: anlsh: this channel is dedicated to common lisp (please see topic) so no many people will be able to help you here
2019-11-28T22:15:48Z jackdaniel: maybe try #scheme or #emacs
2019-11-28T22:15:57Z anlsh: Gotcha
2019-11-28T22:17:21Z LdBeth: anlsh: geiser has weird setting that requires your file extension matches the scheme implementation you use
2019-11-28T22:18:04Z anlsh: Weird, that's the first I've heard of that
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2019-11-28T22:18:15Z anlsh: Where can I learn more?
2019-11-28T22:22:05Z LdBeth: anlsh: see the variable geiser- implementations-alist
2019-11-28T22:22:26Z LdBeth: Also 4.1 of geiser user manual
2019-11-28T22:23:49Z anlsh: Hmm well I'm using chicken scheme and my source file is a .scm, which seems to be in line with the variable's value
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2019-11-28T22:24:58Z anlsh: I'll rtm a bit and see if there's anything useful in there
2019-11-28T22:25:50Z LdBeth: anlsh: yes that’s why they’s a time problem because mit guile gambit also uses that extension, so please refer to 4.1 of geiser user manual
2019-11-28T22:26:01Z LdBeth: *delete time
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2019-11-28T22:29:22Z jackdaniel: LdBeth: while anlsh is excused as a newcomer for not knowing the channel topic you are not, please stick to it
2019-11-28T22:30:40Z LdBeth: Ok, I’ll pm then
2019-11-28T22:31:42Z jackdaniel: thank you
2019-11-28T22:34:22Z anlsh: LdBeth: Drop me a heads-up in here if/once you send your first pm, I'm running erc right now and don't think it's functioning entirely correctly
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2019-11-28T23:17:18Z jcowan: phoe: ping
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2019-11-28T23:39:11Z phoe: jcowan: sup
2019-11-28T23:39:45Z phoe: I need to crash asleep now - back in eight hours or so
2019-11-28T23:41:06Z jcowan: the loop syntax is LOOP WITH var = value AND var = value etc. (assignments not bindings) FOR (headvar . tailvar) IN list DO expr)
2019-11-28T23:41:21Z jcowan: How would I say that in CL?
2019-11-28T23:41:56Z jcowan: I have some pre-CL code I want to modernize
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2019-11-28T23:43:20Z easye: lukego: sbcl20 is certainly doable for whatever time you have available.  We start on Sunday night.
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2019-11-28T23:45:11Z phoe: jcowan: hm?
2019-11-28T23:45:14Z phoe: this is already in CL though
2019-11-28T23:45:33Z phoe: (loop with var1 = val1 with var2 = val2 for (a . b) in list do (foo))
2019-11-28T23:46:45Z phoe: this is valid ANSI CL LOOP
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2019-11-28T23:56:44Z jcowan: oh, awesome
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2019-11-28T23:57:06Z jcowan: that makes life easier
2019-11-28T23:57:33Z jcowan: the code is very interesting, but there was an explicit warning "adapt the loop to your Lisp: Maclisp, Interlisp, etc."
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2019-11-28T23:58:01Z phoe: well
2019-11-28T23:58:06Z jcowan: I mean what the code does is interesting: a two-page Prolog interpreter using downward success continuations (recursions) instead of the usual upward failure (streams)
2019-11-28T23:58:08Z phoe: looks like the loop is already adapted enough
2019-11-28T23:59:38Z no-defun-allowed: Sounds interesting, where did you find that?
2019-11-29T00:00:33Z jcowan: a book called "Implementations of Prolog"
2019-11-29T00:00:36Z no-defun-allowed: (And I recall in a SICP video, Sussman stated he thought implementing logic programming with streams was simpler than with continuations.)
2019-11-29T00:01:03Z Josh_2: When using :export in defpackage do I have to use symbols?
2019-11-29T00:01:08Z Josh_2: keywords*
2019-11-29T00:01:21Z jcowan: looks like it's online already: https://github.com/rm-hull/ambages
2019-11-29T00:02:01Z no-defun-allowed: Josh_2: Anything that's a specifier for a name (which I must check the correct term for), i.e. any string or symbol.
2019-11-29T00:02:15Z Josh_2: hmm strange
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2019-11-29T00:09:39Z jcowan: except that *that* one is a translation into Clojure
2019-11-29T00:10:40Z jcowan: But on the good side, the Nilsson article is there at https://github.com/rm-hull/ambages/blob/master/doc/twspi.pdf
2019-11-29T00:11:19Z jcowan: on the bad side, there are typos in the code; it obviously was retyped by someone who couldn't count parens
2019-11-29T00:12:40Z LdBeth: Wait, you lisp people all can counting parens from just a glance?
2019-11-29T00:15:40Z easye: LdBeth: you get to the point that the "shape" of the code looks wrong.
2019-11-29T00:16:32Z easye is kinda reminded about the similarity to the shape of "correct" sexpr to that of a pattern in Go that will "live".
2019-11-29T00:16:35Z Josh_2: I defined a package, exported some symbols and then used that package in another but I have to refer to the functions within that package with a double colon.. <package>::<function> I was hoping the symbols would simply be imported and I could refer to them simply as (<function>) what have I oofed?
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2019-11-29T00:34:44Z clothespin: :use
2019-11-29T00:34:49Z pjb: LdBeth: yes, lispers are magical beings able to match parens at a glance!
2019-11-29T00:35:45Z pjb: LdBeth: once I found a bug for a single wrong pixel on the screen (true stories, it was in 1986, the screens had only (* 512 348) #| --> 178176 |# pixels! ;-)).
2019-11-29T00:36:22Z Josh_2: clothespin: I have used :use
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2019-11-29T00:37:30Z jcowan: LdBeth: I messed with this program a few decades ago and a friend and I carefully counted the parens and figured out which ones to insert/delete.  Unfortunately I lost the hard copy on which I did that.
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2019-11-29T00:38:11Z jcowan: Lispers *with emacs* are magical beings etc. etc.  Lispers without emacs, like me, have to recite "end of this, end of that" as we go.  Not too hard really
2019-11-29T00:38:18Z clothespin: try debugging from the repl with (in-package :second-pkg)
2019-11-29T00:38:38Z jcowan: I mutter "cons cons a b end-of-cons c end-of cons" to myself as I go.
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2019-11-29T00:38:58Z jcowan: where "end-of-*" is typed ")"
2019-11-29T00:40:07Z LdBeth: jcowan: yeah that’s what I thought, figuring out parentheses printed on paper is not easy to me
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2019-11-29T00:42:19Z Josh_2: clothespin: I am in the second package in the repl and I have to refer to my previous packages functions with <package>::<func> even though I have them in the :export clause of (defpackage )
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2019-11-29T00:43:52Z clothespin: some  lisps get buggy when redefining packages, try (symbol-package 'my-symbol) for debugging
2019-11-29T00:44:41Z clothespin: buggy not meaning their wrong, just meaning they get upset
2019-11-29T00:46:39Z Josh_2: it says It's in my package
2019-11-29T00:46:46Z Josh_2: I think I will restart my image and try again
2019-11-29T00:46:50Z clothespin: first or second
2019-11-29T00:47:45Z Josh_2: second
2019-11-29T00:47:45Z clothespin: sbcl gets upset, allegrocl quietly makes package changes
2019-11-29T00:47:53Z Josh_2: It's ccl
2019-11-29T00:49:47Z clothespin: if you intern the symbol in the second package before putting it in your :use it could act like that
2019-11-29T00:50:22Z Josh_2: it was actually sbcl sorry, I had ccl and sbcl both running remotely oof
2019-11-29T00:52:27Z Josh_2: Okay
2019-11-29T00:52:33Z Josh_2: Well I restarted my image and It's working now
2019-11-29T00:52:42Z Josh_2: I don't even know xD
2019-11-29T00:52:43Z pjb: clothespin: you may want to use (com.informatimago.tools.symbols:check-duplicate-symbols)
2019-11-29T00:53:53Z clothespin: slime can intern symbols without you being concious of it
2019-11-29T00:54:19Z Josh_2: Well It's working now anyways
2019-11-29T00:54:22Z Josh_2: Thanks for the help :)
2019-11-29T00:54:47Z clothespin: i usually restart sbcl as well but for the record i rarely had to do that with allegeocl
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2019-11-29T00:55:18Z Josh_2: Restarting isn't really a problem when It's running locally
2019-11-29T00:55:29Z Josh_2: but I am connecting to an instance on an external server oof
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2019-11-29T01:16:49Z Xach: darn it
2019-11-29T01:17:03Z Xach: i wish i was here to help with the package thing earlier
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2019-11-29T04:32:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-29T04:50:58Z parisienne: Hello everybody, is it okay to ask a emacs lisp question related to macros here?
2019-11-29T04:51:39Z PuercoPope: parisienne: #emacs is probably the channel you are looking for
2019-11-29T04:51:52Z no-defun-allowed: Probably not, given this is a Common Lisp channel.
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2019-11-29T04:52:26Z parisienne: yeah, that is why I am asking :) Thank you.
2019-11-29T04:54:52Z no-defun-allowed: Though elisp macros and CL macros are fairly similar, so it still might make sense in a CL context.
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2019-11-29T04:57:20Z pjb: parisienne: or ##lisp
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2019-11-29T05:04:05Z parisienne: yeah, the question I have is kind of generic and related to the appropriate use of macros. Not really about Emacs. Didn't want to risk a kick. What is ##lisp?
2019-11-29T05:04:30Z pjb: ##lisp is for lisp in general. #lisp is for common lisp in particular.
2019-11-29T05:04:36Z pjb: parisienne: http://cliki.net/IRC
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2019-11-29T05:05:39Z parisienne: ah okay. thank you.
2019-11-29T05:05:40Z pjb: parisienne: have a look at: Casting Spels in Lisp  Conrad Barski, M.D.  http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html
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2019-11-29T05:06:23Z beach: parisienne: Go ahead and ask.  You will be told if your question is not appropriate for this channel.
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2019-11-29T05:15:45Z parisienne: Well, I have been writing elisp, clojure and some CL for quite a bit now. Never touched macros, because most of the time functions just did what I wanted. Now to grasp macros better I am using my elisp config and trying to find things I can replace with macros. In this specific case I wanted to define a symbol/variable and set it to a value based on a file it reads at "compile" time. Here is the pastebin:
2019-11-29T05:15:45Z parisienne: https://pastebin.com/ENk4SyT2
2019-11-29T05:15:49Z parisienne: I wanted to end up with either a (setq somevar "somevalue") or if the file doesn't exists, it should be (setq some-var nil).
2019-11-29T05:16:08Z parisienne: Is this considered appropriate usage of macros?
2019-11-29T05:16:37Z pjb: parisienne: your macro is missing a eval-when-compile in the expansion.
2019-11-29T05:16:53Z pjb: parisienne: what would happen if the setq-if-exists form is evaluated without being compiled?
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2019-11-29T05:19:00Z pjb: parisienne: so your question is quite emacs specific. In emacs lisp, like in CL, variables should be declared first. Using setq works, but since emacs 25 there is lexical bindings, so it is very preferable to define variables with defvar… (and of course, also use setq, since emacs lisp doesn't have defparameter, unless you define such a macro).
2019-11-29T05:19:53Z parisienne: the idea was just to have whatever symbol I define to nil. Still not sure about evaluation/compilation process in all the lisps. That is why I wanted to ask here. You can throw a CL example at me if you have anything.
2019-11-29T05:20:23Z pjb: We cannot throw any code at you, since your specifications are unclear.
2019-11-29T05:22:21Z parisienne: specification is basically, I pass in a symbol -> it should generate a "global" variable that gets a value from something else (in this case a file).
2019-11-29T05:22:47Z pjb: You say "define a variable" and you call it setq-something and use setq!
2019-11-29T05:23:02Z parisienne: exactly
2019-11-29T05:23:08Z pjb: You say compile-time, but you only do things at macro-expansion time.  And you don't say what happens at run-time.
2019-11-29T05:24:19Z pjb: If you mean "define" what should happen if the variable is already defined?
2019-11-29T05:24:27Z parisienne: at the moment I just call the setq-if-exists in a function and after the call I use the passed in symbol in something else.
2019-11-29T05:25:48Z parisienne: Didn't think about that. But in my mind it should just override whatever value is/was there.
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2019-11-29T05:26:08Z parisienne: But does this type of usage make sense for macros?
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2019-11-29T05:27:10Z parisienne: wait, is macro-expansion and compile time different?
2019-11-29T05:28:05Z pjb: of course.
2019-11-29T05:28:25Z pjb: You could do something like: https://pastebin.com/XKER1HVf
2019-11-29T05:29:22Z pjb: Sorry, the fifth lne should be: file :if-does-not-exist nil)))
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2019-11-29T05:30:34Z parisienne: Thank you. So the basic idea would work and it would make sense for a macro?
2019-11-29T05:31:28Z pjb: Well, it's rare to be wanting to load in a variable data at compilation-time.  Configuration is something that is more often left for run-time and the end-user or administrator.
2019-11-29T05:32:13Z pjb: Compilation is usually completed long before the software is installed, on a different computer, by different people, than those who will install it, or use it.
2019-11-29T05:33:17Z pjb: While it's possible in lisp to inline data, when we save the program as an executable image, usually programs are distributed with resource files to be installed in specific places on the target system, and loaded at run-time.
2019-11-29T05:33:48Z pjb: It may be worth considering this scheme, notably if the data is big.
2019-11-29T05:36:43Z parisienne: well, the idea for this started when I was writing a REST library in Clojure. What I wanted was to read all the endpoints definitions from a file and generate some base functions at compile time. I would have attempted the same thing in CL. Not sure if my reasoning makes any sense.
2019-11-29T05:37:08Z parisienne: Yeah, that makes absolutely sense.
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2019-11-29T05:38:44Z parisienne: Your code snippet absolutely covers exactly this.
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2019-11-29T05:44:38Z pjb: parisienne: when you have something like this, you actually have code in this file.  There's no point in using a different system to load this code and compile it than normal lisp code.
2019-11-29T05:44:50Z pjb: parisienne: instead, write a macro to interpret this code, and put it directly in your sources!
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2019-11-29T05:46:32Z pjb: I assume you have a function such as (generate (parse *data-read-at-compilation-time*))  Then you can write: (defmacro define-endpoints (&rest endpoints-definitions) `(generate (parse endpoint-definitions))) ; parsing will be simplier, since the lisp reader will have already tokenized it.
2019-11-29T05:46:41Z pjb: s/`//
2019-11-29T05:47:30Z pjb: parisienne: and thus you write your first embedded DSL.
2019-11-29T05:49:20Z parisienne: pjb: yeah, exactly! This was exactly what I planned to do. But I didn't feel confident doing that yet.
2019-11-29T05:50:23Z pjb: Note the macro cannot be simplier. So you can gain confidence easily, by testing and debugging the parser and the generator independently.
2019-11-29T05:50:54Z pjb: (generate '((some definition) (and some other))) -> (progn (defclass …) (defmethod …) …)
2019-11-29T05:53:15Z parisienne: pjb: exactly. But you got my point and I assume it would not be unusual to see something like that in a library, correct?
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2019-11-29T06:21:07Z montxero: I have a question, is it possible to construct an a-list where the cdr is a proper list?
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2019-11-29T06:22:12Z montxero: It is almost a contradictory definition, however I would like to hear ideas
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2019-11-29T06:28:49Z pjb: montxero: (let ((attributes '())) (acons 'colors '(red blue white) attributes)) #| --> ((colors red blue white)) |# seems possible…
2019-11-29T06:33:05Z montxero: pjb: You're here too!!! great.  But we get a proper list
2019-11-29T06:37:16Z pjb: It's only the printed representation.  Since there are no list and no a-list in lisp (paradox!), you need to interpret the bunch of cons cells as you wish.
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2019-11-29T06:37:40Z pjb: When you consider a-lists, ((colors red blue white))  is interpreted as ((colors . (red blue white))).
2019-11-29T06:37:55Z beach: montxero: Maybe there is something I don't understand, but the CDR of an alist is always a proper list.
2019-11-29T06:38:34Z pjb: He meant "an a-list entry".
2019-11-29T06:39:19Z beach: My brain is too small to interpret what people utter in a way that contradicts what they actually did utter.
2019-11-29T06:39:42Z fengshaun: what's an a-list?
2019-11-29T06:39:47Z pjb: An association list.
2019-11-29T06:39:54Z pjb: A p-list is a property list.
2019-11-29T06:40:27Z fengshaun: oh, thanks, like ((a . b) (c . d))?
2019-11-29T06:40:50Z beach: fengshaun: It is defined in the Common Lisp HyperSpec glossary.
2019-11-29T06:40:50Z pjb: There's not much difference between an association and a property, it's just how they're represented: plist: (k1 v1 k2 v2 … kn vn) alist: ((k1 . v1) (k2 . v2) … (kn . vn)).
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2019-11-29T06:42:02Z fengshaun: makes sense, thanks!
2019-11-29T06:42:03Z pjb: Furthermore, alist (the CL functions working with a-lists) can use keys of any class (there's a :test argument to use the equality you want), while plist (the CL functions working with p-lists) use only symbols (normally) and always use EQL to compare the keys).
2019-11-29T06:44:26Z pjb: fengshaun: note that both a-list and p-lists use the same number of cons cells, and are as efficient one as the other.
2019-11-29T06:45:10Z aeth: Scheme uses alists because they usually don't have a plist equivalent, and definitely don't portably. In CL, plists tend to be more common than alists.
2019-11-29T06:45:42Z aeth: And almost always with a keyword as the key
2019-11-29T06:46:15Z aeth: The main disadvantage of plists is that you can't use map/mapcar, but you can loop by #'cddr and use a few other things
2019-11-29T06:46:36Z aeth: The main advantage of plists is that you can use &key in destructuring-bind, essentially treating plists like keyword arguments.
2019-11-29T06:47:07Z pjb: Well, you need more parentheses to write a-lists. But there's less risk of desynchronisation with a-lists than p-lists.  If you miss two keys or values  in a p-list, you can mix it almost entirely: (k1 k2 v2 k3 v3 k4 v4 v5)  vs. ((k1) (k2 . v2) (k3 . v3) (k4 . v4) (nil . v5))
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2019-11-29T06:53:24Z aeth: That can get confusing when the key and value are of the same type, usually a keyword in that case. It's the same issue with function calling with keyword arguments. You're basically requiring newlines for clarity at that point.
2019-11-29T06:54:07Z aeth: On the other hand, plists mirror keyword arguments so closely (see my previous two lines) so that's probably why they're more common than alists
2019-11-29T06:54:54Z p_l: 'morning
2019-11-29T06:55:02Z beach: Hello p_l.
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2019-11-29T06:56:50Z montxero: beach: nice play the cdr of an a-list is always a proper list.  I meant the cdr of an element of an alist
2019-11-29T06:57:04Z beach: OK, so pjb was right.
2019-11-29T06:57:12Z montxero: yeah
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2019-11-29T07:12:41Z Cymew: aeth: Are you sure plists are more common? I find alists are mentioned so often as a suggested solution. I actually struggled to find a plist when I needed an example.
2019-11-29T07:13:15Z Shinmera: every time you call a function with &key you use a plist.
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2019-11-29T07:14:39Z pjb: a-list might be more common, because you can map other types than symbols (or other EQL-able objects).
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2019-11-29T07:15:13Z pjb: (cdr (assoc "hello" '(("HELLO" . "SALUT") ("BYE" . "AU REVOIR")) :test 'string-equal)) #| --> "SALUT" |#
2019-11-29T07:18:14Z Cymew: Shinmera: Huh. That is propably making them more common. I wonder how often they are used intentionally, though, rather than that indirect manner. Like pjb say, alists have some flexibility.
2019-11-29T07:18:45Z Cymew: But, I have not read that much new code in a while, so things might have changed. :)
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2019-11-29T07:20:41Z aeth: Cymew: only someone who has all of Quicklisp installed can know for sure, but unlike most things, this would be pretty hard to search. Effectively impossible to get exact numbers on because so many macros implicitly would use plists/alists/etc.
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2019-11-29T07:21:18Z aeth: any destructuring-bind with &key in a macro is using a plist tail at the very least, if not a full plist
2019-11-29T07:22:46Z Cymew: I'm learning more about implementing lisp cores than I expected. I have never given plists much thought before. I have been enlightened.
2019-11-29T07:23:38Z Cymew: I should get back to hacking lisp again.
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2019-11-29T07:33:00Z p_l: Cymew: plists were also basis of the original "object orientation" in Lisp
2019-11-29T07:33:05Z p_l: (back when it was all caps)
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2019-11-29T07:36:09Z pjb: And of course, it was an essential implementation data structure, since symbol themselves were implemented as a plist (we still have symbol-plist, but the symbol name, the function slot, the value slot, and others were stored on the symbol plist in LISP 1.5).
2019-11-29T07:45:55Z Cymew: I remember reading something like that once, probably some lm docs.
2019-11-29T07:52:23Z p_l: by the time of LM the symbols were a more complex structure already
2019-11-29T07:52:51Z beach: p_l: More complex than what?
2019-11-29T07:53:17Z p_l: beach: more complex than just a plist, an early specialized structure
2019-11-29T07:53:38Z beach: I see.  So with SICL symbols, I am going back in time.
2019-11-29T07:53:57Z p_l: beach: depends how far
2019-11-29T07:54:11Z beach: A symbol has only a name and a package in SICL.
2019-11-29T07:54:33Z p_l: beach: how do you access standard symbol slots in this case?
2019-11-29T07:54:49Z beach: There is no such thing as "standard symbol slots" that I know of.
2019-11-29T07:55:05Z p_l: beach: symbol-function, symbol-value, symbol-plist, etc.
2019-11-29T07:55:13Z beach: They are in a first-class global environment.
2019-11-29T07:55:35Z beach: ... so that their contents can vary according to the environment.
2019-11-29T07:56:19Z p_l: hmmm. Separate the values from identity, so symbols in different environments are still EQ?
2019-11-29T07:56:40Z beach: Yes.
2019-11-29T07:56:52Z p_l: that makes sense
2019-11-29T07:57:01Z p_l: beach: then you're not going back in time at all ;)
2019-11-29T07:57:09Z beach: metamodular.com/SICL/environments.pdf
2019-11-29T07:58:19Z beach: The trick was to make function calls fast, i.e. to avoid doing a hash-table lookup for each call of the form (f ...).
2019-11-29T07:58:49Z p_l: shouldn't be a problem for lexically bound f, should it?
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2019-11-29T07:59:07Z beach: Correct.
2019-11-29T07:59:36Z beach: I just "tie" the code to a particular environment.
2019-11-29T08:00:14Z beach: The static environment of a function contains disembodied function cells (in the form of CONS cells) containing the function object.
2019-11-29T08:00:29Z beach: It's all in the paper, so I won't go into details.
2019-11-29T08:01:26Z beach: But this way, I will be able to isolate implementation code from user code, for better safety.  And I'll be able to do sandboxing a bit easier.
2019-11-29T08:02:56Z beach: The ultimate objective being a full multi-user system.
2019-11-29T08:03:45Z beach: This feature can also be used to separate the compilation environment from the run-time environment.
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2019-11-29T08:07:29Z beach: Anyway, I'll add "symbols have function cells" to a list of misconceptions along with "Lisp is interpreted".
2019-11-29T08:08:22Z p_l: beach: well, symbols being structures are implementation detail, what matters I guess is that there's "illusion" of symbols having a set of standard "slots" of information
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2019-11-29T08:08:38Z p_l: beach: I think SICL isn't even the first implementation to separate the data
2019-11-29T08:09:27Z beach: p_l: It is better seen as just another protocol.  Once one realizes that, then there is more freedom of choice with implementation.
2019-11-29T08:09:55Z beach: p_l: Maybe so.  All I could find in the literature was Scheme environments with hash-table lookups for each function call.
2019-11-29T08:10:21Z beach: It should be in the "previous work" section of the paper.
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2019-11-29T08:10:36Z p_l: beach: that sounds like very inefficient implementation for language that explicitly pushed lexical environments
2019-11-29T08:10:54Z beach: I agree.
2019-11-29T08:13:09Z ggole: Why would fetching the function stored in a symbol require a table lookup? Wouldn't the code for (f ...) load the function from the symbol for f (which is looked up at read time)?
2019-11-29T08:13:33Z beach: No, because then the function can't be redefined later.
2019-11-29T08:13:45Z beach: The indirection is required.
2019-11-29T08:13:56Z ggole: It can be redefined by changing the field of the symbol.
2019-11-29T08:14:10Z p_l: or any other local redirection table
2019-11-29T08:14:12Z ggole: I agree that indirection is required.
2019-11-29T08:14:24Z ggole: But not a hash table.
2019-11-29T08:15:20Z p_l: if you push max perf, you can even remove the indirection without disabling redefinition, at the cost of making redefinitions slow (but possibly enabling safe redefinition of inlined functions)
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2019-11-29T08:15:53Z ggole: Yeah, some JITs do that trick
2019-11-29T08:16:08Z p_l: (instead of location used as jump table, keep track of callers)
2019-11-29T08:17:18Z loke: p_l: That's what the JVM does. It has a concept of "uncompiling" a function.
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2019-11-29T08:18:01Z beach: ggole: Yes, a hash table is not required, as I show in my paper.
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2019-11-29T08:19:36Z beach: ggole: It can't be redefined by changing the field of a symbol if the goal is to have different environments that allow different values for the property.
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2019-11-29T08:23:09Z ggole: I see.
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2019-11-29T10:05:42Z phoe: I do not yet understand why (format nil "~E" 1.0) is expected to produce "1.e+0".
2019-11-29T10:05:54Z phoe: clhs 22.3.3.2
2019-11-29T10:05:54Z specbot: Tilde E: Exponential Floating-Point: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ccb.htm
2019-11-29T10:05:58Z phoe: > If the parameter d is omitted, then there is no constraint on the number of digits to appear. A value is chosen for d in such a way that as many digits as possible may be printed subject to the width constraint imposed by the parameter w, the constraint of the scale factor k, and the constraint that no trailing zero digits may appear in the fraction, except that if the fraction to be printed is zero then a
2019-11-29T10:06:04Z phoe: single zero digit should appear after the decimal point.
2019-11-29T10:06:22Z phoe: If I am reading this correctly, then "if the fraction to be printed is zero then a single zero digit should appear after the decimal point" applies in this case.
2019-11-29T10:06:31Z phoe: So we should print "1.0e+0" instead.
2019-11-29T10:06:36Z phoe: Where do I get this wrong?
2019-11-29T10:07:33Z phoe: K is defaulted to one and therefore positive, so we should print one decimal digit after the decimal point.
2019-11-29T10:08:59Z pjb: AFAIK, it should produce 1.0e+0
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2019-11-29T10:10:25Z pjb: phoe: there's one constraint that must be respected, when k is absent, it defaults to 1, and the constraint is k<d+2 ; since d is absent, any value of d is possible, such as k<d+2, ie. 1<d+2 ie.-1<d ie. 0<=d ie. any value is possible, such as the number can be printed.
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2019-11-29T10:10:39Z pjb: But k is still 1..
2019-11-29T10:11:34Z phoe: pjb: in this case, we may choose any value of D that lets us accurately print the number. Most implementation choose the minimum required number of digits.
2019-11-29T10:11:47Z phoe: But, this is orthogonal to the question I've asked.
2019-11-29T10:11:52Z pjb: And the minimum to represent a floating point number!
2019-11-29T10:12:41Z pjb: 1.e+0 is valid reader syntax for a floating point number, so I guess it can be printed as such (contrarily to my expectation).
2019-11-29T10:13:49Z phoe: pjb: yes, I meant, the minimum to represent the number accurately.
2019-11-29T10:14:13Z pjb: which is 0 when the number is integral.
2019-11-29T10:14:17Z phoe: However my question is about "except that if the fraction to be printed is zero then a single zero digit should appear after the decimal point.".
2019-11-29T10:14:59Z pjb: oops, I missed the except.  Yes, it clearly indicates that it should be printed as 1.0e+0
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2019-11-29T10:15:49Z phoe: "If k is positive, then it must be strictly less than d+2; k significant digits are printed before the decimal point, and d-k+1 digits are printed after the decimal point."
2019-11-29T10:15:57Z phoe: K is 1 and therefore positive.
2019-11-29T10:16:25Z pjb: and d being absent, you can choose any convenient value, but subject to the following constraints, including the except.
2019-11-29T10:16:52Z phoe: K must be less than D+2.
2019-11-29T10:17:12Z pjb: Here K is fixed to 1, so D must be >= 0.
2019-11-29T10:17:16Z phoe: 1 < D + 2, so -1 < D.
2019-11-29T10:17:27Z phoe: So D can be, uh, unsigned-byte in that case?
2019-11-29T10:17:31Z pjb: yes.s
2019-11-29T10:18:10Z pjb: But since it must also be at least 1 to print the 0 when it's 1.0, then we have (and (<= 0 d)  (<= 1 d)) <=> (<= 1 d).
2019-11-29T10:18:46Z phoe: This implies that an implementation may want to print 1, 2, 5, or MOST-POSITIVE-FIXNUM zeroes, and all of these are correct.
2019-11-29T10:18:49Z phoe: And this doesn't look well.
2019-11-29T10:18:54Z phoe: Let me re-re-read.
2019-11-29T10:19:27Z pjb: phoe: another constraints is that there should be no trailing 0s.
2019-11-29T10:19:44Z pjb: So you cannot print 1.23000000000  You must reduce d to 2 and print 1.23.
2019-11-29T10:19:52Z pjb: 1.0 being an EXCEPTion.
2019-11-29T10:20:19Z phoe: Yes, I see.
2019-11-29T10:21:00Z phoe: So if the fraction to print is zero, we must print at least one zero to satisfy the part about "if the fraction to print is zero" and at most one zero to satisfy the "no multiple trailing zeroes" rule.
2019-11-29T10:21:24Z phoe: And this implies that "1.0e+0" is the correct way to go, which in turn clashes with the body of the ANSI-TEST.
2019-11-29T10:22:04Z phoe: Which still doesn't make sense. I need to figure out the rationale that this test follows, since it is possible that this clashes with our understanding so far.
2019-11-29T10:24:36Z pjb: My reference is the CLHS, not the ansi-test.
2019-11-29T10:24:44Z pjb: (apart in the case of PROG2).
2019-11-29T10:24:50Z phoe: (:
2019-11-29T10:25:34Z phoe: So is mine, but ansi-test should be consistent with the spec. That is why I ask a question - the way I read it, this test is not correct, so either that test is not correct, or I am not reading something correctly.
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2019-11-29T10:26:59Z pjb: You should ask in the github issue comments of the ansi-test project…
2019-11-29T10:27:12Z pjb: For me, it's a bug in ansi-test.
2019-11-29T10:27:26Z phoe: I will - but only once I verify that I am reading the spec correctly.
2019-11-29T10:27:46Z phoe: I'd like a few more minds to chip in and verify that I'm not missing anything.
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2019-11-29T11:56:35Z refusenick: quickloading clws failed because g++ tried to compile a file with "#include <lfp.h>"
2019-11-29T11:56:42Z refusenick: What external libraries do I need?
2019-11-29T11:59:03Z refusenick: I think it might be Boost
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2019-11-29T12:20:59Z Xach: libfixposix-dev: /usr/include/lfp.h
2019-11-29T12:21:09Z Xach: refusenick: that's what apt-file tells me on debian 10
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2019-11-29T13:00:52Z refusenick: Xach: That fixes it. Thanks!
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2019-11-29T13:05:28Z Xach: i use apt-file a lot to discover such things
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2019-11-29T13:32:00Z lukego: drat I would love to be at SBCL20 but it doesn't seem doable. Damn you all who manage to attend.
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2019-11-29T13:33:32Z Shinmera: Same
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2019-11-29T13:34:29Z Shinmera: Meanwhile for ELS20 I'm currently busy getting the food organisation in order. Consulting all the various options is quite time intensive.
2019-11-29T13:35:17Z lukego: Rösti, rösti with cheese, rösti with ham...
2019-11-29T13:35:21Z lukego ducks :)
2019-11-29T13:35:34Z Shinmera: I would actually like a menu with Röschti
2019-11-29T13:35:50Z pjb: Where will it be?
2019-11-29T13:35:54Z Shinmera: Zürich
2019-11-29T13:36:01Z pjb: Right. Thanks.
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2019-11-29T13:36:24Z Shinmera: Zürich is.. not cheap for food, so getting a reasonable offer is tricky.
2019-11-29T13:36:28Z jackdaniel: ach, placki ziemniaczane ;)
2019-11-29T13:36:39Z lukego: Is there much of a Lisp contingent at FOSDEM btw? that's been my hangout the past couple of years
2019-11-29T13:37:17Z mercourisj: anyone know of a markup templating language that uses CL directly? (or perhaps cl-markup or some other similar technology)
2019-11-29T13:37:30Z Shinmera: "uses CL directly" in what way
2019-11-29T13:37:56Z mercourisj: I'm imagining something like being able to make a template file like this:
2019-11-29T13:38:01Z Shinmera: like, sexpr syntax, or parser in CL, or?
2019-11-29T13:38:22Z mercourisj: <html><head>Something</head>(cl-markup:markup (:p "hello paragraph"))</html>
2019-11-29T13:38:29Z jackdaniel: then go for cl-who
2019-11-29T13:38:40Z jackdaniel: if that's what you want
2019-11-29T13:38:57Z Shinmera: Clip uses lisp forms for template arguments.
2019-11-29T13:39:00Z mercourisj: OK, I've only experience with cl-markup and spinneret, I'll take a look
2019-11-29T13:39:22Z jackdaniel: there is cl-emb which works fine
2019-11-29T13:39:59Z mercourisj: ah, cl-emb looks very like it, yes
2019-11-29T13:40:17Z jackdaniel: I suspect that every now and then someone writes such thing so I wouldn't be surprised if there are many nih libraries doing the same thing
2019-11-29T13:40:28Z mercourisj: I just dont like those weird templating languages like jinja
2019-11-29T13:40:39Z mercourisj: they are simple, but their syntax is strange and there are fun gotchas all the time
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2019-11-29T15:09:11Z jeosol: Good morning guys
2019-11-29T15:09:23Z phoe: heyyy
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2019-11-29T15:10:22Z jeosol: My application loads  tens of systems, some of these systems are libraries, layered on each other, and I have examples to test different aspects. Sometimes I have two examples (different complexity) to test some system. I can't have two system loaded.
2019-11-29T15:11:00Z jeosol: Lately, with the application grown so large, I have been trying to have the examples test cases, as separate systems, which loads all required application cases.
2019-11-29T15:11:06Z phoe: I don't understand the part "I can't have two system loaded"
2019-11-29T15:11:13Z phoe: Why? Do they collide with each other?
2019-11-29T15:11:21Z jeosol: Two systems will usually override global variables and causing inconsistent
2019-11-29T15:11:33Z jeosol: phoe: I was providing some context.
2019-11-29T15:12:24Z phoe: jeosol: which libraries are those? If they mutate some global state upon load, this will make it harder for other systems to load nicely. This warrants a bugticket.
2019-11-29T15:12:26Z jeosol: Now, I am able to separate the system, but because of the size, there is still a system still loading an example. Is there a hack with asdf or quicklisp to let me know what system is being load so I can track the issue easily
2019-11-29T15:12:41Z phoe: As in, mutate global state in a non-nice way.
2019-11-29T15:12:45Z jeosol: phoe: Everything I have describe is on the application side, nothing with SBCL
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2019-11-29T15:13:02Z phoe: jeosol: I am not talking about SBCL, I am talking about the systems you load.
2019-11-29T15:13:05Z jackdaniel: phoe: I think that this is irrelevant to he question
2019-11-29T15:13:13Z phoe: OK.
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2019-11-29T15:13:46Z phoe: The question is basically, you want a list of all systems being loaded when you (asdf:load-system :foo). Correct?
2019-11-29T15:13:48Z jeosol: I meant by application global variables. To given an example, my application works with 3d grids for fluid modeling. I have simple example 100x1x1 grid that runs fast for testing, and I have another case, 100x100x50 that is slower
2019-11-29T15:14:23Z jeosol: So I have to test with the smaller, if things work, I go the larger one. There globals, e.g., the size of the grid that are different in both cases
2019-11-29T15:15:05Z jeosol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgdiRh-alfQ&t=49s
2019-11-29T15:15:36Z jeosol: Some of you are probably aware of my project, thats the link. It's not been updated for a while, but hopefully that shows the size of files in the repo.
2019-11-29T15:16:00Z phoe mutters something about shared mutable state being the root of all evil
2019-11-29T15:16:16Z jeosol: I often have to load a good portion of that to test different things.
2019-11-29T15:16:20Z jackdaniel: jeosol: try inspecting the plan from (asdf:make-plan 'asdf:sequential-plan (asdf:make-operation :load-op) (asdf:find-system "alexandria"))
2019-11-29T15:16:21Z jeosol: phoe: I do agree with you
2019-11-29T15:16:28Z jackdaniel: ignore entries which are not operating on systems
2019-11-29T15:16:39Z jeosol: jackdaniel: thanks. I save that code
2019-11-29T15:16:41Z jackdaniel: (you could filter them by component type in cdr of each entry)_
2019-11-29T15:16:55Z jeosol: I -> I'll
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2019-11-29T15:20:39Z jeosol: I hope the above is clear. In summary, I am disentangling the examples/applications to be loadable as separate systems apart from the libraries so I can test cases consistently without clobbing global variables.
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2019-11-29T15:24:26Z test12300001: i am testinjg out a clim (comon lisp interface maganger) irc client called  bbeirc in mezzanoi
2019-11-29T15:24:46Z ebrasca: test12300001: Hi
2019-11-29T15:24:50Z phoe: 22.3.3.2 says, "If k is positive, then it must be strictly less than d+2"
2019-11-29T15:24:52Z phoe: test12300001: heyyy
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2019-11-29T15:25:13Z phoe: Is it therefore legal to (format t "~,2,,4e" 1.0) where D is 2 and K is 4?
2019-11-29T15:25:31Z test12300001: hello, phoe
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2019-11-29T15:26:32Z jeosol: phoe, jackdaniel: thanks for the suggestions. I will report back once I resolve the issue
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2019-11-29T15:27:04Z jeosol: need to updated my asdf skills I suppose
2019-11-29T15:27:09Z phoe: so do I
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2019-11-29T15:27:19Z phoe: ASDF is still magic to me, especially the under-the-hood parts
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2019-11-29T15:30:44Z beach: Mike3620: It is entirely possible that beirc needs some care.
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2019-11-29T15:38:40Z beach: ... it probably needs abbrevs and a spell checker for starters.
2019-11-29T15:40:08Z jeosol: phoe: yeah me too. But I had some chat with Fare a while back when he was looking hands to support. From that convo, I started using the :package-inferred-system for my setup.
2019-11-29T15:41:18Z jeosol: phoe, jackdaniel: I was able to figured out the errant system manual, by loading system one by one (will explore a better way).
2019-11-29T15:46:38Z phoe: I gotta repeat my question - is (format t "~,2,,4e" 1.0) legal?
2019-11-29T15:46:46Z phoe: Since that is what ANSI-TEST FORMAT.E.20 does
2019-11-29T15:47:04Z phoe: and k is NOT strictly less than (2+ k)
2019-11-29T15:47:09Z phoe: and k is NOT strictly less than (2+ d)*
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2019-11-29T16:24:05Z jeosol: phoe,jackdaniel: the system loads correctly with latest SBCL now and saved a core file for quick restart.
2019-11-29T16:24:19Z flip214: clhs 22.3.3.2
2019-11-29T16:24:19Z specbot: Tilde E: Exponential Floating-Point: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ccb.htm
2019-11-29T16:25:26Z flip214: phoe: reading that text it shouldn't be legal
2019-11-29T16:26:26Z phoe: flip214: I have a really bad Star Wars meme that I thought of precisely this moment
2019-11-29T16:29:34Z flip214: phoe: do tell!
2019-11-29T16:29:48Z flip214: han shot first?
2019-11-29T16:30:17Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H1gx2-WK4s
2019-11-29T16:30:23Z phoe goes to lispcafe in shame
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2019-11-29T16:30:54Z flip214: phoe: good one!
2019-11-29T16:31:06Z flip214: let's bring that up in an sbcl20 talk!
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2019-11-29T16:40:26Z matthewzmd: hey guys, for anyone familiar with emacs lisp. Is it possible to write a function with parameter f that creates a function with the name f
2019-11-29T16:41:31Z beach: matthewzmd: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.  Sorry!
2019-11-29T16:42:21Z beach: matthewzmd: Maybe Emacs Lisp has (SETF FDEFINITION).
2019-11-29T16:42:27Z beach: clhs fdefinition
2019-11-29T16:42:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm
2019-11-29T16:43:02Z edgar-rft: matthewzmd: it's posible with a function, but it sounds more as if ou want an elisp macro for that. See you on #emacs :-)
2019-11-29T16:43:39Z matthewzmd: ohh okay didn't know that this is common lisp only
2019-11-29T16:44:52Z matthewzmd: edgar-rft: No one yet reply to me in #emacs ;)
2019-11-29T16:45:54Z edgar-rft: matthewzmd: I did :-)
2019-11-29T16:47:13Z matthewzmd: Yep I just saw that :P
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2019-11-29T17:19:34Z phoe: clhs ~X
2019-11-29T17:19:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cbe.htm
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2019-11-29T18:29:04Z Josh_2: Are there any libraries to call python3 libraries in CL?
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2019-11-29T18:34:28Z phoe: Josh_2: https://github.com/snmsts/burgled-batteries3
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2019-11-29T18:35:06Z ck_: nice name ;)
2019-11-29T18:37:37Z Josh_2: phoe: Thanks, I found burgled-batteries didn't know there was a version for python 3 :)
2019-11-29T18:37:54Z phoe: Josh_2: it was posted on /r/lisp recently AFAIR
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2019-11-29T18:38:47Z Josh_2: well I don't use reddit ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2019-11-29T18:47:50Z Josh_2: Doesn't compile properly on ccl rip
2019-11-29T18:48:30Z shka_: wow, there is bb for python 3?
2019-11-29T18:48:32Z shka_: awesome
2019-11-29T18:48:42Z shka_: Josh_2: don not despair, perhaps this can be solved
2019-11-29T18:48:56Z shka_: what kind of error pops up?
2019-11-29T18:49:13Z Josh_2: https://imgur.com/n28zdKS.png
2019-11-29T18:50:24Z shka_: ok, interesting
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2019-11-29T18:52:46Z shka_: doni don't have time to dig into this right now
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2019-11-29T18:54:29Z phoe: Josh_2: backtrace?
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2019-11-29T18:56:04Z Josh_2: https://imgur.com/zCUIGKf.png
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2019-11-29T18:59:05Z phoe: https://github.com/snmsts/burgled-batteries3/blob/master/ffi-definers.lisp#L693
2019-11-29T18:59:46Z phoe: looks like the fenced value wasn't dereferenced properly
2019-11-29T18:59:48Z phoe: file a bug on that fork
2019-11-29T19:00:38Z phoe: well
2019-11-29T19:00:46Z phoe: it seems like that fork is pretty unmaintained
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2019-11-29T19:02:18Z Josh_2: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ guess I'll just have to actually use python
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2019-11-29T19:06:36Z Josh_2: Does CFFI work with CPP libraries?
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2019-11-29T19:09:30Z _death: I used py4cl2 the other day for plotting with matplotlib.. worked fine
2019-11-29T19:09:50Z shka_: Josh_2: not really, unless interface is in C
2019-11-29T19:10:25Z Josh_2: _death: I will try py4cl2
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2019-11-29T19:17:24Z Josh_2: well that doesn't compile either oof
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2019-11-29T19:21:24Z Josh_2: no external symbol  UIOP/DRIVER::LAUNCH-PROGRAM
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2019-11-29T19:21:55Z phoe: Josh_2: upgrade ASDF
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2019-11-29T19:22:31Z jackdaniel: not: upgrade uiop though? I've been told numerous times that uiop is independent library
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2019-11-29T19:22:45Z Josh_2: the asdf is the one that shipped with ccl
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2019-11-29T19:23:21Z phoe: jackdaniel: I'd be worried about upgrading UIOP without upgrading ASDF
2019-11-29T19:23:42Z jackdaniel: so it is not an independent library?
2019-11-29T19:23:42Z phoe: Josh_2: evaluate (asdf:asdf-version)
2019-11-29T19:23:48Z phoe: you should be on 3.3.3
2019-11-29T19:24:56Z Josh_2: 3.1.5
2019-11-29T19:25:05Z Josh_2: This is arm6 ccl
2019-11-29T19:26:52Z phoe: grab a new version of ASDF then
2019-11-29T19:32:48Z Josh_2: Am tryin
2019-11-29T19:33:32Z Fade: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf.git
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2019-11-29T19:35:52Z Josh_2: Okay sweet, I have version 3.3.3 now
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2019-11-29T19:38:26Z phoe: now launch-program will work
2019-11-29T19:38:28Z phoe: because it is there
2019-11-29T19:38:32Z Josh_2: Now It's working :)
2019-11-29T19:38:37Z Josh_2: Thanks for saving the day phoe :D
2019-11-29T19:38:50Z Josh_2: Now I don't have to use Python natively xD
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2019-11-29T19:48:14Z sjl: Anyone involved with gitlab.common-list.net here?  I created an account to try to send a PR to fix a bug in iterate, but I can't seem to fork the iterate repo to my own account.  It says I've "reached my project limit" even though I have zero projects.
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2019-11-29T19:55:41Z phoe: sjl: #common-lisp.net, poke ehuelsmann there.
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2019-11-29T19:56:19Z sjl: thanks
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2019-11-29T21:54:58Z Josh_2: What is loops version of do's step form?
2019-11-29T21:55:54Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe (loop for x = initial-value then next-value ...)?
2019-11-29T21:56:01Z Josh_2: hmm I tried that
2019-11-29T21:56:06Z no-defun-allowed: That could look like (loop for x = 0 then (1+ x) ...)
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2019-11-29T21:56:11Z Josh_2: Yes
2019-11-29T21:57:07Z no-defun-allowed: It could go wrong if you try something like (let ((x ...)) (loop for x = x then ...)) since LOOP will set up another binding for X.
2019-11-29T21:57:44Z Josh_2: It's cool I had made an error, missed a letter in one of my variables xD
2019-11-29T21:57:48Z Josh_2: pretty typical
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2019-11-29T23:02:44Z jeosol: is anyone using CL to develop rest API applications. I am quite comfortable using some web libs (hunchentoot, caveman, etc) but not an expert. Wondering if anyone has some rest API examples to share or their applications.
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2019-11-30T00:32:55Z dlowe: jeosol: I've been doing some with hunchentoot and cl-json.
2019-11-30T00:33:32Z dlowe: jeosol: I just (setf (hunchentoot:content-type*) "application/json") and then return (json-encode-json-to-string `((:status . "ok") ...))
2019-11-30T00:33:37Z jeosol: dlowe: thanks. Any library, or just raw using the two tools
2019-11-30T00:34:19Z jeosol: ok
2019-11-30T00:35:01Z dlowe: The session handling on hunchentoot is kinda primitive and prone to hacking, though. Thinking about writing my own.
2019-11-30T00:35:15Z dlowe: I'm not making a product so I'm not sure how much I care.
2019-11-30T00:35:27Z jeosol: did a quick search saw snooze and cl-rest-server, not sure they are heavily used
2019-11-30T00:35:44Z dlowe: you can check quicklisp download stats
2019-11-30T00:36:05Z jeosol: oh I see, mine is not a product per se, but to able to access some session remotely.
2019-11-30T00:36:27Z jeosol: Someone told me about django-rest, but I don't want to be using two languages, if CL can get me what I want.
2019-11-30T00:36:35Z jeosol: thanks, will check the stats
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2019-11-30T01:52:35Z Josh_2: I have https://imgur.com/ELuz2SF.png and https://imgur.com/8sPkVqG.png but when I try to call the following https://imgur.com/xzuHV0f.png I just get undefined function call, I thought if you :use a package in your own defpackage it pulls the symbols from that package into your new one
2019-11-30T01:53:30Z Josh_2: this is ccl
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2019-11-30T01:54:52Z _death: (symbol-name 'write-pin)
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2019-11-30T01:58:40Z Josh_2: what am I missing with all this packaging stuff that means I can't call the functions from my the packages I :use?
2019-11-30T02:00:51Z aeth: Josh_2: case-sensitivity is what you're missing
2019-11-30T02:00:57Z Josh_2: aaaaaaaaaah cmon
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2019-11-30T02:01:23Z aeth: Josh_2: you don't export 'write-pin you export '|write-pin| because you're using the symbol named "write-pin" not "WRITE-PIN". Things are upcased by default, not case-insensitive by default.
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2019-11-30T02:01:29Z aeth: Just export #:write-pin
2019-11-30T02:01:34Z Josh_2: hnng
2019-11-30T02:01:46Z Josh_2: clhs uses "symbol" for some reason ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2019-11-30T02:02:01Z Josh_2: that's why I used ""
2019-11-30T02:02:25Z aeth: You can export "WRITE-PIN" and some people use it as a micro-optimization. This might be important if you're running it on a computer from the 1980s.
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2019-11-30T02:05:45Z Josh_2: welllll
2019-11-30T02:05:52Z Josh_2: I'm using a rasp pi zero w so basically xD
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2019-11-30T02:06:33Z aeth: That's probably more powerful than a Pentium 3
2019-11-30T02:08:29Z Josh_2: 700hz of pure power
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2019-11-30T02:33:42Z no-defun-allowed: *700MHz
2019-11-30T02:33:58Z Josh_2: yes my mistake
2019-11-30T02:41:54Z mister_m: When defining a macro, and using a let statement with a (gensym) invocation, is there a way I can provide a value to the let-binding in addition to having the macro expander generate a symbol for me? Or do I need to invoke (gensym) in one let binding, and then assign to the gen'd symbol in other using let*?
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2019-11-30T02:52:54Z Xach: mister_m: i don't fully follow the question, but macros are just functions return source code, so you can use anything you like to form that returned code
2019-11-30T02:53:12Z Xach: gensym is not required, it's to avoid a specific tricky situation
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2019-11-30T03:00:49Z mister_m: Xach right, but in a let binding i can provide a value (let ((thing "test")) ...) - can i provide a value if I also have to (gensym) the ``thing`` binding?
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2019-11-30T03:08:49Z Xach: mister_m: yes. it's a symbol, just like THING is a symbol
2019-11-30T03:09:18Z Xach: references to that symbol in other parts of the code only care about its identity, not its name or package
2019-11-30T03:09:56Z Xach: (of course, symbols with the same name in the same package are identical)
2019-11-30T03:10:16Z Xach: but symbols with the same name in no package need not be
2019-11-30T03:12:36Z pjb: (let ((s1 (intern "FOO" #|in this package|#))) (unintern s1) (let ((s2 (intern "FOO" #|in this package|#)))  (list (eq s1 s2) (symbol-name s1) (symbol-name s2) ))) #| --> (nil "FOO" "FOO") |#
2019-11-30T03:12:43Z pjb: time exists.
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2019-11-30T03:34:16Z akoana this is a proof of reincarnation with a new identity :)
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2019-11-30T05:18:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-11-30T05:59:28Z mfiano: Is POSITION the idiomatic thing to use when checking for the presence of an element in a vector, when the vector can have nil elements and the element to be checked can also be nil?
2019-11-30T06:00:26Z beach: Sounds good to me.
2019-11-30T06:01:00Z beach: ... as long as you don't do (if (position ...) ...)
2019-11-30T06:01:26Z mfiano: Ok. I'll just add a comment because I can see that confusing me at a later date (not using the integral return; this is simple for an ASSERT).
2019-11-30T06:01:50Z beach: Sounds good to me.
2019-11-30T06:01:52Z mfiano: simply, rather.
2019-11-30T06:02:03Z beach: ... as long as you don't do (assert (position ....)).
2019-11-30T06:02:41Z aeth: beach: what's the issue with doing if (position ...)?
2019-11-30T06:02:48Z beach: ... because of page 13 of the LUV slides by Norvig and Pitman.
2019-11-30T06:03:11Z beach: The reader expects a Boolean value for IF and ASSERT, but POSITION does not return a Boolean value.
2019-11-30T06:03:20Z beach: It returns a position OR a default value.
2019-11-30T06:03:25Z mfiano: Can you elaborate on the "don't do (assert (position ...)), or is that the PN/KP thing too?
2019-11-30T06:03:44Z mfiano: Aha
2019-11-30T06:03:50Z beach: ASSERT takes a Boolean expression, and POSITION does not return a Boolean expression.
2019-11-30T06:04:25Z aeth: beach: so would the correct behavior be to define a function that does (if (position ...) t nil) then?
2019-11-30T06:04:34Z beach: No.
2019-11-30T06:04:50Z beach: (if (null (position ...)) ... ...)
2019-11-30T06:05:13Z mfiano: Is there a distinction in the spec that specifies that it cannot be a generalized boolean? Maybe I should just read this paper. Have a link, beach?
2019-11-30T06:05:13Z beach: NULL tests whether the value returned by POSITION is the default (i.e. NIL).
2019-11-30T06:05:25Z beach: And (NULL ...) is a Boolean expression.
2019-11-30T06:05:55Z beach: mfiano: It has nothing to do with semantics.  It has to do with the message that you send to the person reading your code.
2019-11-30T06:06:22Z beach: If we were only interested in semantics, there would be no problem with obfuscated code.
2019-11-30T06:06:50Z beach: mfiano: LUV slides by Norvig and Pitman, page 13.
2019-11-30T06:07:11Z beach: If you type that to Google, you get a few PDF links.
2019-11-30T06:07:19Z mfiano: I'm not familiar with this acronym
2019-11-30T06:08:14Z mfiano: Aha, ok. I was reading the title. That is the venue if I actually click through to one of them :)
2019-11-30T06:08:30Z beach: Lisp Users and Vendors Conference August 10, 1993.
2019-11-30T06:08:51Z mfiano: Yeah I read this multiple times. Perhaps time for another.
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2019-11-30T06:15:21Z mfiano: beach: So would you do (unless (null (position nil sequence)) t), (not (null (position nil sequence))), or other for ASSERT?
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2019-11-30T06:18:37Z beach: I would do the (assert (not (null (position...))))
2019-11-30T06:19:05Z beach: Or more likely, I would signal an error, as in (when (null (position ...)) (error...))
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2019-11-30T07:28:49Z pjb: beach: you are wrong: IF and ASSERT DO NOT EXPECT a BOOLEAN!  They expect a generalized boolean.  POSITION returns a generalized boolean. It's perfectly compatible with IF or ASSERT.
2019-11-30T07:28:58Z pjb: clhs boolean
2019-11-30T07:28:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_ban.htm
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2019-11-30T07:29:00Z pjb: clhs if
2019-11-30T07:29:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_if.htm
2019-11-30T07:29:46Z pjb: Of course, you are entitled to write your programs in a subset of CL, and nobody will reproach it to you.  But people can use the full CL language.
2019-11-30T07:31:11Z aeth: it's funny that the three of us have different opinions here because I'd still say write a trivial function (inline it if performance is a concern, since its so trivial its implementation will never change) that is self-documenting in its name
2019-11-30T07:31:37Z aeth: then there's no need to add a comment
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2019-11-30T07:47:20Z beach: pjb: You must have read only part of the exchange.  I explicitly said that it has nothing to do with semantics, and everything to do with communication with the person reading the code.
2019-11-30T07:49:17Z pjb: Still my point.   (if (not (null (position …))) …) is a heavier cognitive load, to somebody who knows CL.  When I see it, I start to wonder what's happening so special, why don't we just test (if (position …) …).  And it's not even a double negation such as (not (not …)).  You have to think hard to realize that it meant nothing.
2019-11-30T07:50:01Z pjb: beach: I realize that one can expect from smart and even not so smart compilers to optimize (not (null …)) out.
2019-11-30T07:53:59Z beach: I find it amusing that my arguments about conventions are nearly always met with individual opinions.  Let me give a parallel concerning English prose.
2019-11-30T07:54:06Z beach: *I* might think it is fine to write text that has dangling participles, because after all *I* wrote it so *I* know what I meant.  But that's not the point.
2019-11-30T07:54:22Z beach: The point is that even though *I* don't mind writing and reading such prose, I still don't write like that when it is meant for other people to read.
2019-11-30T07:54:30Z beach: When I write for other people to read, I can't ask each individual reader what they want, because I probably don't even know them.  So I have to follow CONVENTIONS, whether I like those conventions or not.
2019-11-30T07:54:32Z beach: This aspect seems to be lost on many people here, very likely because they have little or no experience with working in teams, or with writing code that might some day be maintained by others.
2019-11-30T07:55:11Z pjb: beach: you are assuming what other people expect. I'm telling you that for me, it's harder to read (if (not (null (position …))) …) than (if (position …) …).
2019-11-30T07:55:24Z beach: Notice the "for me".
2019-11-30T07:55:27Z pjb: Yep.
2019-11-30T07:55:36Z pjb: And I can assume that for some others it might be the same.
2019-11-30T07:56:27Z beach: I am not assuming what other people expect.  I am posing that we should all adopt the same conventions, thereby getting used to what others expect.  Of course, the way the community is made up right not, this is impossible.
2019-11-30T07:56:59Z pjb: The convention I would propose is to use the semantics specified in the language.
2019-11-30T07:57:08Z beach: Wow.
2019-11-30T07:57:10Z beach: Amazing.
2019-11-30T07:57:29Z beach: So anything semantically correct is conventional.
2019-11-30T07:57:43Z beach: That would be... let's say "interesting".
2019-11-30T07:58:06Z pjb: When you call a function, you have to know what type of argument it expects, and what type of results it returns.  If you write in a subset of the language that don't assume all the possible values, you are both limiting yourself and risking serious problems.
2019-11-30T07:58:49Z pjb: We see the problems all the time in C, because a lot of people don't know C, but assume some higher level language with C syntax…
2019-11-30T07:58:50Z MichaelRaskin: If you use English as analogy, let's consider the amazing convention of never splitting an infinitive and how it used to phrases that look tortured (and are still no easier to read)
2019-11-30T07:59:02Z fengshaun: is it possible to have the local copy of hyperspec be searchable (short of grep'ing the directory)?
2019-11-30T07:59:12Z pjb: fengshaun: yes.
2019-11-30T07:59:40Z pjb: fengshaun: there's a version of it in info format (it was distributed once with gcl IIRC).
2019-11-30T07:59:47Z beach: MichaelRaskin: That is not a convention.  It is a stupid idea proposed by besservissers who have no training.  Check Pinker for a more informed opinion.
2019-11-30T08:00:07Z fengshaun: pjb, hmm I just downloaded hyperspec-7 from lispworks
2019-11-30T08:00:13Z pjb: or that.
2019-11-30T08:00:16Z fengshaun: it's just a bunch of html files
2019-11-30T08:00:38Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I am quoting Norvig and Pitman for a reason.  I consider them the analogue of Pinker.
2019-11-30T08:01:05Z pjb: fengshaun: https://github.com/informatimago/emacs/blob/master/pjb-searches.el#L207
2019-11-30T08:01:07Z MichaelRaskin: beach: it _is_ literally a convention. A Convention produced by people who didn't understand what they are doing, but now (unfortunately) widespread enough to become a convention in many places.
2019-11-30T08:01:33Z beach: Whatever.
2019-11-30T08:01:45Z MichaelRaskin: I know that a lot of conventions proposed make code harder to read for me whenever they are literally followed
2019-11-30T08:01:52Z MichaelRaskin: I know I am not alone
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2019-11-30T08:02:59Z beach: MichaelRaskin: They only make it harder to read for people who stubbornly refuse to follow conventions established by smart, experienced, and knowledgeable people like Norvig and Pitman.
2019-11-30T08:03:19Z MichaelRaskin: No
2019-11-30T08:03:23Z beach: Yes
2019-11-30T08:03:29Z aeth: I personally follow a version of WP:IAR (ignore all [the] rules) in my projects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:IAR
2019-11-30T08:03:33Z pjb: Notably Norvig who is not a lisper anymore…
2019-11-30T08:03:40Z MichaelRaskin: People _are_ different
2019-11-30T08:03:42Z beach: "I personally"
2019-11-30T08:03:45Z aeth: e.g. my line length limit is 100 lines, but I go over that in a few places, because sometimes it makes things less readable to put a fake break in
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2019-11-30T08:03:57Z pjb: And Pitman, who AFAIK hasn't written a line of lisp code for more than 20 years.
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2019-11-30T08:04:20Z beach: I think I totally fail to get this idea across, and I shouldn't be surprised.  I will stop trying now.
2019-11-30T08:04:28Z shka_: hmmm, this started with lisp at some point?
2019-11-30T08:04:29Z MichaelRaskin: beach: when people who actually follow the specific authority are not easier to find than people who think this authority is harmful...
2019-11-30T08:04:44Z fengshaun: pjb, thanks! that works too
2019-11-30T08:04:51Z pjb: beach: and there is old code that you still have to be able to read. This is why I think my approach is better: stick to the CLHS.
2019-11-30T08:05:12Z beach: pjb: Yeah, and the other day we saw someone saying that "Norvig is a traitor", so we shouldn't listen to him either.  Sheesh!
2019-11-30T08:05:35Z pjb: :-)
2019-11-30T08:06:17Z aeth: Speaking of Python, I think Python's a bit too dogmatic on the side of having one true style that must never be violated. CL generally seems to be a nice middle ground, keeping important conventions like parentheses, comments, and indentation (unlike C and C++, where indentation and bracket management is a bit of a nightmare)
2019-11-30T08:06:18Z MichaelRaskin: The idea that following a convention that doesn't fit one's way of thinking about things (and of writing in other languages) will make this convention feel natural is pretty optimisitic
2019-11-30T08:06:43Z shka_: MichaelRaskin: mind is a flexible thing, it can adapt
2019-11-30T08:06:46Z aeth: Oh, and sticking to kebab-case is another important thing CL does.
2019-11-30T08:07:12Z aeth: In some languages, I have to use CamelCase libraries in my underscore_case project and, well, it's a bit ugly
2019-11-30T08:07:12Z MichaelRaskin: shka_: note that I never identified as CL-only programmer
2019-11-30T08:07:18Z shka_: aeth: kebab-case does not require use of shift key, therefore it is superior ;-)
2019-11-30T08:07:36Z MichaelRaskin: Which means that my mind will adapt to the entirety of what I do, not just to a specific style of Lisp
2019-11-30T08:08:32Z MichaelRaskin: (and of course if writing style conflicts with the mindset used for planning out the algorithms, either the latter wins out, or I become worse at making code correct)
2019-11-30T08:12:53Z pjb: Also, the question of style in Lisp cannot be resolved globally, because you can use different programming styles (and worse, mix them!) when you use embedded DSLs, or merely a new macro.  Each program, each function can have its own style!
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2019-11-30T08:14:03Z beach: Right, let's abandon the very idea of conventions.
2019-11-30T08:14:31Z beach: pjb: Not meant particularly for you.
2019-11-30T08:14:56Z pjb: Global conventions.  I don't mind local or program-specific conventions.
2019-11-30T08:15:04Z pjb: And even personnal style.
2019-11-30T08:15:42Z aeth: Imo... Programming is like art, as a special case of writing. You need conventions. You need to know the conventions. You need to mostly follow the conventions. But once you're good enough, you can break conventions in certain places.
2019-11-30T08:16:00Z aeth: Dogmatic linters to enforce 100% usage of conventions are too easy for programmers to write, but they're not necessarily the right thing to do.
2019-11-30T08:16:02Z shka_: this discussion isn't very useful, isn't it?
2019-11-30T08:16:03Z pjb: A lot of programming team try to enforce a uniform style to depersonalize the code (and then use git history to find out who wrote what), but I like it when each programmer has a personal style and this can be seen in the code.
2019-11-30T08:16:39Z pjb: (By the way, recently AI algorithms determined that Molière wrote his pieces alone, and that Shakespear had help…).
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2019-11-30T08:21:32Z no-defun-allowed: pjb: In that case, I would rather stick to a convention to hide myself.
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2019-11-30T08:26:55Z no-defun-allowed: MichaelRaskin: Sticking to one convention for all languages is probably very, very bad. The closest to writing "Lisp" layout in C could be the GNU standard, and the reverse is the stuff you get on #clschool on a very bad day.
2019-11-30T08:27:05Z aeth: pjb: That sounds impractical. The Google Common Lisp Style Guide seems more pragmatic because a lot of the time when more than one convention exists, it says to use the existing convention in an area, which helps keep things somewhat locally uniform.
2019-11-30T08:27:53Z aeth: (I say "an area" because I forget if it says "file" or something broader)
2019-11-30T08:29:18Z aeth: Well, I guess it's kind of vague there, too. e.g. "Choose wisely, but above all, consistently with yourself and other developers, within a same file, package, system, project, etc."
2019-11-30T08:31:30Z MichaelRaskin: no-defun-allowed: it's never the same convention, but some consistency of approaching semantically the same things
2019-11-30T08:32:33Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps C and Lisp are a worse pair than average, but I don't think I would expect to write things with similar semantics in those, either.
2019-11-30T08:33:14Z aeth: MichaelRaskin: The problem is that Lisp's expression-oriented nature leads to very different idioms than in most languages. There's no need to set an intermediate variable in a COND, or even return to an intermediate variable in a COND, or even use a COND where an IF will do even if it would look too ugly/complicated with a "? ... : ..." ternary in most languages
2019-11-30T08:34:34Z MichaelRaskin: Having more options doesn't mean _always_ picking them
2019-11-30T08:34:45Z MichaelRaskin: (Even if it does mean picking them often)
2019-11-30T08:35:53Z easye: "inconsistency is the hobgoblin of limited minds"
2019-11-30T08:36:20Z aeth: The thing is, in CL nearly everything has a return value (only (values) doesn't, unless someone wrote code that returns (values), which is very unidiomatic and almost always implicitly inserts a NIL, anyway)... and almost all of those return values are meaningful (although it's kind of 50/50 with NIL)
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2019-11-30T08:37:03Z easye: > unless someone wrote code that returns (values)
2019-11-30T08:37:23Z aeth: CL for some reason is even more consistent and ideologically pure here than Scheme (very surprising), which often returns #<unspecified> or some other incredibly literal interpretation of its specification... which can mean different code even betwen CL and Scheme, two very close languages.
2019-11-30T08:37:36Z easye: I know someone who uses that to indicated that they have thought about the return at that point in the function and declare that it should return without values on purpose.
2019-11-30T08:38:06Z easye: I don't code that way, but I obey his convention in the code I fix.
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2019-11-30T08:41:21Z easye: (VALUES) Is actually preferable than RETURN-FROM 'cuz it makes changing function naming more difficult which often leads to mistakes.
2019-11-30T08:42:09Z pjb: easye: my point: don't prefer, use both! (return-from this-function (values))
2019-11-30T08:42:30Z easye: pjb: sounds great.
2019-11-30T08:43:37Z easye: Except that I invariably forget to change the RETURN-FROM function name parameter.
2019-11-30T08:44:09Z pjb: Happily, it's lexical, so you get a compilation error!
2019-11-30T08:44:27Z easye: Still, I am probably happy to have RETURN-FROM require one to name the function that one is returning from, as I get a warning at compile time rather than have  the program misbehave.
2019-11-30T08:44:36Z easye: pjb: agreed.
2019-11-30T08:44:56Z easye: s/warning/error/
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2019-11-30T08:45:20Z pjb: (defun foo () (block this-function  (return-from this-function 'foo)))  s/foo/bar/g (bar) still works.
2019-11-30T08:45:42Z easye always tries to rewrite the code to not need RETURN-FROM forms.
2019-11-30T08:46:33Z pjb: (defmacro mydefun (name arglist &body doc-decls-and-body) `(defun ,name ,arglist ,@(doc-and-decls doc-decls-and-body) (block this-function ,@(body doc-decls-and-body))))
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2019-11-30T10:05:25Z smokeink: How to tell asdf / sbcl to use the :system-cache  ?  :system-cache uses the contents of variable asdf::*system-cache* which by default is the same as using ("/var/cache/common-lisp" :uid :implementation-type)    http://soc.if.usp.br/manual/cl-asdf/asdf/Controlling-where-ASDF-saves-compiled-files.html#Controlling-where-ASDF-saves-compiled-files
2019-11-30T10:06:39Z smokeink: I'm reading that doc page but I don't really grasp it. What to write in .sbclrc in order for it to use the system cache
2019-11-30T10:10:14Z jackdaniel: smokeink: I'm not aware of *system-cache* in asdf, maybe try setting *user-cache* instead?
2019-11-30T10:11:15Z smokeink: thanks
2019-11-30T10:11:23Z smokeink: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/23azqf/need_help_setting_asdf_cache_output_directory/
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2019-11-30T13:00:29Z Xach publishes a new dist update
2019-11-30T13:00:51Z phoe: <3
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2019-11-30T13:07:07Z Shinmera: Aw man, just missed the window to add a library then?
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2019-11-30T13:09:58Z Xach: Yow, 1 minute ago?
2019-11-30T13:10:10Z Shinmera: Yea, forgot to submit this morning.
2019-11-30T13:10:16Z Xach: Yes, sorry, just missed the window. But I hope not to wait until the end of december for the december update.
2019-11-30T13:10:32Z Shinmera: Great, if all goes well there'll be another by then
2019-11-30T13:10:42Z Xach: This month's problems were caused by two libraries not working well together, compounded by my build hardware crashing sporadically
2019-11-30T13:10:49Z Shinmera: Ouch
2019-11-30T13:11:30Z Lycurgus: do you have reference platorms (outside of lisp) you test on?
2019-11-30T13:11:40Z Lycurgus: (meant Xach)
2019-11-30T13:11:42Z Xach: I need to update to something way more modern
2019-11-30T13:12:03Z Xach: Lycurgus: i use linux amd64 debian 10 for testing
2019-11-30T13:12:11Z Xach: with sbcl
2019-11-30T13:12:25Z Lycurgus: is debian 10 in ga release?
2019-11-30T13:12:45Z Lycurgus: i thought 9 was latest
2019-11-30T13:13:45Z Lycurgus: see that it is
2019-11-30T13:14:01Z Lycurgus: however, they are known to break shit
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2019-11-30T13:14:36Z Lycurgus: so that, in your place, if debian is to be the reference, i'd wait a year from realease
2019-11-30T13:15:16Z Lycurgus: in spite of its slimy commercial nature, ubuntu is a better debian
2019-11-30T13:15:27Z Lycurgus: or rather because of it
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2019-11-30T13:15:47Z Lycurgus: *release
2019-11-30T13:17:30Z Xach: Lycurgus: i haven't noticed too much breakage.
2019-11-30T13:18:01Z Lycurgus: did you just say that sbcl is the sole implementation you work against?
2019-11-30T13:19:05Z Xach: Lycurgus: i did just so say
2019-11-30T13:19:19Z Xach: Projects that are explicitly sbcl-only are rejected, though.
2019-11-30T13:19:20Z Lycurgus: sbcl on linux, acl on dos, and ccl on mac would maybe be ideal
2019-11-30T13:19:43Z Lycurgus: ah
2019-11-30T13:19:44Z Xach: cl-test-grid did useful testing on multiple platforms
2019-11-30T13:20:02Z jackdaniel: I imagine that testing just on one platform vs one implementation vs all libraries is demanding task
2019-11-30T13:20:45Z Lycurgus: no doubt, but setting up CI and deferring all issues to the pkg owners is less so
2019-11-30T13:20:56Z Lycurgus: including the CI setup and maint
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2019-11-30T13:21:31Z Lycurgus: i dont recall a ql pkg ever failing thoug
2019-11-30T13:21:33Z Lycurgus: h
2019-11-30T13:22:08Z Lycurgus: i'm pretty conservative and tend to older pkgs
2019-11-30T13:22:44Z Lycurgus: until recently I was sbcl centric too
2019-11-30T13:22:44Z jackdaniel: Lycurgus: could you set such CI for current ql distributions? I think it would be useful for package and implementation maintainers regardless (I could use some reports for ecl i.e)
2019-11-30T13:23:28Z Lycurgus: if that is not the personal third person, I should think so
2019-11-30T13:23:48Z phoe: in theory one could use Travis CI to test on win/lin/mac on different implementations
2019-11-30T13:23:54Z phoe: but we can't count on Travis for all of quicklisp
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2019-11-30T13:24:27Z jackdaniel: Lycurgus: that was directed to you, because you seem to have some expeirence with CI and you are interested in that (justifully so!)
2019-11-30T13:25:24Z Lycurgus: misperception, I personally am not interested in CI, it doesn't fit in my resource profile for the things I want to do
2019-11-30T13:25:41Z Lycurgus: but if I were concentrated on a single thing I would
2019-11-30T13:25:47Z jackdaniel: so you are rather suggesting that it would be easy to do /for someone else/?
2019-11-30T13:26:04Z Lycurgus: as far as linux, debian9/ubuntu 18.04 are my current standard
2019-11-30T13:26:37Z Lycurgus: i am suggesting that it would be good and doable, not necessarily that anyone do it
2019-11-30T13:26:43Z MichaelRaskin: I think the only claim was that keeping a CI up is not harder than the work currently done
2019-11-30T13:28:03Z Lycurgus: in practice I know that there is a rats nest of incompatiblities, strengths and weaknesses in the major implementations, and I color within those lines
2019-11-30T13:28:13Z Xach: I guess that keeping a CI up would not be (much) harder, but setting it up initially seems like a big task.
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2019-11-30T13:32:52Z Lycurgus: if the resources weren't a problem it might save effort in the end if you used it just as a filter, empirical backing for the not just sbcl criterion
2019-11-30T13:33:33Z Lycurgus: i.e. not just sbcl on a latest debian
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2019-11-30T13:58:34Z MichaelRaskin: (decided to use my already-there code to check iolib compilation on ECL; ouch it does take time)
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2019-11-30T14:08:20Z MichaelRaskin: (but yes, it does build eventually)
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2019-11-30T14:21:59Z jackdaniel (uncorks the shampaign)
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2019-11-30T14:23:25Z MichaelRaskin: Looks like some pun on  shampoo campaign
2019-11-30T14:24:50Z MichaelRaskin: But yeah, I kind of have most of the code needed to compute portability matrix for Linux+(SBCL/CCL/ECL/ABCL/CLISP), but I am not patient enough to wait until it builds
2019-11-30T14:25:42Z jackdaniel: champagne, huh ;)
2019-11-30T14:26:10Z jackdaniel: cl-test-grid is good for testing portability
2019-11-30T14:26:38Z MichaelRaskin: So we just need to talk someone into running it regularly?
2019-11-30T14:26:40Z jackdaniel: it even makes it easy to construct pivot tables for different versions of the implementation/software
2019-11-30T14:28:22Z jackdaniel: seems that they are decently up to date; i.e https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/adw-charting.html
2019-11-30T14:28:36Z jackdaniel: (i.e against last two ql distributions)
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2019-11-30T14:28:57Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/iolib.html
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2019-11-30T15:15:39Z phoe: a perfect situation would be having access to proper hardware where we can spin up virtualized mac/win/lin boxes on demand, and run our CI on those
2019-11-30T15:16:03Z phoe: but this means expenses to set it up and expenses to maintain it
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2019-11-30T16:18:31Z Demosthenex: ok, so i've in the past used R for simple graphing and stats. i recall seeing (but cant find) a post on reddit that said CL could do all the same stuff with some library. does anyone have a recommendation?
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2019-11-30T16:37:06Z phoe: looks like https://github.com/guicho271828/eazy-gnuplot might be of some use
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2019-11-30T17:07:40Z edgar-rft: Demosthenex: if I know this right then XLISP-STAT was one of the predecessors of R and there had been several attempts to port XLISP-STAT to Common Lisp, for example https://github.com/blindglobe/common-lisp-stat
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2019-11-30T17:08:50Z edgar-rft: if that's not what you're looking for see here for alternatives https://www.cliki.net/site/search?query=statistics
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2019-11-30T17:28:52Z Josh_2: How do I convert a string like this https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1580#1580 to a list?
2019-11-30T17:29:06Z Josh_2: I tried read-from-string buut that's not working
2019-11-30T17:30:20Z ck_: Josh_2: have you purchased the premium package? Otherwise it'll be tough
2019-11-30T17:30:49Z phoe: Josh_2: "2018-08-27T16:11:01.568000+00:00" is not readable in Lisp
2019-11-30T17:31:08Z Josh_2: phoe: yes that's what I mean it doesn't work
2019-11-30T17:31:28Z Josh_2: should I modify what I send to contain a quote at the start?
2019-11-30T17:31:39Z phoe: send? what do you mean?
2019-11-30T17:31:49Z phoe: you control the way this sexpression is output?
2019-11-30T17:32:02Z phoe: if yes, print your timestamps as strings
2019-11-30T17:32:57Z pfdietz: Otherwise you will need to hack up your own read table.
2019-11-30T17:33:25Z Josh_2: I don't have that much control phoe cl-json is doing the parsing from json
2019-11-30T17:33:29Z phoe: wait a second
2019-11-30T17:33:38Z phoe: what do you mean cl-json produced this
2019-11-30T17:33:44Z phoe: did you print it as ~A instead of ~S?
2019-11-30T17:33:48Z pfdietz: cl-json produced a list, and then you printed it?
2019-11-30T17:33:48Z Josh_2: ya know
2019-11-30T17:33:50Z Josh_2: I probably did
2019-11-30T17:33:54Z phoe: don't
2019-11-30T17:34:02Z phoe: use ~S instead to ensure that the list is readable afterwards
2019-11-30T17:34:34Z pfdietz: Also, use jsown.  It's much faster than cl-json, even if you have to intern some of the names yourself.
2019-11-30T17:34:37Z phoe: and if you want to be super paranoid, set *PRINT-READABLY* to T in case you get an unreadable object
2019-11-30T17:35:30Z Josh_2: That worked
2019-11-30T17:35:49Z Josh_2: pfdietz: cba to change right now, the conversion is done in a different package
2019-11-30T17:36:16Z pfdietz: Just keep that in mind if it becomes a bottleneck.
2019-11-30T17:36:31Z pfdietz: (it did for me)
2019-11-30T17:36:58Z Josh_2: Yes that's fine, doesn't matter for what I'm doing though
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2019-11-30T18:11:11Z Demosthenex: edgar-rft: yeah, in R i use more the plotting library ... i don't do deep statistics.
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2019-11-30T18:22:07Z Demosthenex: maybe i'll just look into one of the gnuplot libs
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2019-11-30T22:03:30Z no-defun-allowed: If you are going to use jsown, I would strongly suggest you go into the sources and change every (declaim (optimize ... (safety 0) ...)) to (safety 1) at least, because you will get some very strange conditions if you make a mistake otherwise.
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2019-11-30T22:08:57Z phoe: does the standard actually guarantee that top-level DECLAIM OPTIMIZE settings do not leak out of the currently compiled file?
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2019-11-30T22:10:00Z no-defun-allowed: "As with other defining macros, it is unspecified whether or not the compile-time side-effects of a declaim persist after the file has been compiled."
2019-11-30T22:10:44Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not good at reading CLHS-ese, but I think this means there's no guarantee.
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2019-11-30T22:11:43Z phoe: hmmm
2019-11-30T22:11:49Z phoe: https://github.com/madnificent/jsown/issues/20
2019-11-30T22:11:53Z phoe: but is this enough?
2019-11-30T22:14:28Z no-defun-allowed: Can't say, but it's still incredibly impolite to use (SAFETY 0). I had to spend a good half hour debugging with a friend because we got memory faults by giving it the structure (:obj ((a . b) ...)) instead of (:obj (a . b) ...)
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2019-11-30T22:18:55Z phoe: this
2019-11-30T22:19:04Z phoe: sbcl has sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy for that
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2019-11-30T22:26:29Z no-defun-allowed: (EVAL-WHEN is one of the parts of CL I don't get, so I think you should wait for someone more knowledgeable to answer.)
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2019-11-30T22:33:46Z mfiano: See Fare's write-up on it
2019-11-30T22:34:07Z mfiano: https://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html
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2019-11-30T23:06:12Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: yet another piece of evidence that every JSON library for CL that I've heard of is awful
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2019-11-30T23:06:34Z aeth: I really need to get around to writing one
2019-11-30T23:07:16Z aeth: For whatever reason, every JSON library looks to me like an irredeemable failure that fails to understand either CL or JSON. I've ranted about that before here, though.
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2019-11-30T23:07:54Z Josh_2: Yes you have xD
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2019-11-30T23:31:35Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: I have a *very* large JSON file I want to analyse, so I will probably have to make my own with some kind of "stream"ing.
2019-11-30T23:32:28Z no-defun-allowed: And I remember jsown didn't understand some part of the \u syntax until recently, FWIW
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2019-11-30T23:44:21Z jfrancis: I got almost three years into a work project using cl-json before hitting a missing feature that forced me to jsown. That was six months ago, and I still haven't gotten around to re-writing all the cl-json stuff with jsown. I just have one single file that uses jsown instead of cl-json. Every time I look at that project and compare it with all the features I have yet to complete, it moves further and further down the list of priorities.
2019-11-30T23:45:00Z jfrancis: Which is why good software projects have project managers, to force stuff like that up to the top.
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2019-11-30T23:47:44Z White_Flame: of course, that's also why having application-specific functions which wrap your libraries are also good
2019-11-30T23:48:04Z White_Flame: especially if they can raise the level of abstraction to application tasks
2019-11-30T23:48:20Z White_Flame: becomes a single point to swap out