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2019-10-01T03:10:00Z seok: does handler-case catch errors from new threads?
2019-10-01T03:10:31Z seok: I have a websocket server which I want to keep running but log errors in case of error
2019-10-01T03:11:16Z seok: It spews error everytime someone disconnects, I don't know how to fix that but the server seems to keep running after that
2019-10-01T03:12:17Z no-defun-allowed: You should put the handler-case in the function that is run by the new thread.
2019-10-01T03:14:52Z seok: hm, setting *debugger-hook* to nil does not help
2019-10-01T03:15:35Z seok: no-defun-allowed: I would like to, but the function is deep within the library
2019-10-01T03:15:50Z seok: Is there any way on high level?
2019-10-01T03:17:02Z seok: It's within clack, and I don't understand a thing that's going on in clack
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2019-10-01T03:18:59Z no-defun-allowed: Probably not.
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2019-10-01T03:21:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-01T03:24:28Z ebrasca: beach: Hi!
2019-10-01T03:24:45Z seok: hey!
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2019-10-01T03:35:53Z beach: ebrasca: What is missing in Mezzano, and what are some things that need improvement?
2019-10-01T03:39:44Z ebrasca: beach: I am now working on tcp , I like to make usocket work correctly for lybraries like hunchentoot.
2019-10-01T03:40:17Z beach: I see.
2019-10-01T03:41:05Z ebrasca: beach: fittestbits__ is working to make usb storage and file system.
2019-10-01T03:41:07Z beach: I thought sockets were an abstraction from Unix.
2019-10-01T03:42:30Z ebrasca: beach: usocket have backend for Genera.
2019-10-01T03:43:24Z beach: I see.  But I still thought it was a Unix abstraction, and if so, if I were to write a new operating system, I might think of better abstractions.
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2019-10-01T03:46:07Z ebrasca: beach: Usocket is on top of Mezzano abstraction. I have taken inspiration from usocket for tcp server part for Mezzano.
2019-10-01T03:46:21Z beach: I see.
2019-10-01T03:46:47Z beach: I am just guessing about the Unix abstraction.  I know very little about networking.
2019-10-01T03:47:40Z beach: And I know very little about the goals of Mezzano, so I am guessing about them as well.
2019-10-01T03:49:25Z ebrasca: beach: Do you know assambler and compilers?
2019-10-01T03:49:33Z beach: A bit yes.
2019-10-01T03:51:23Z ebrasca: I have writen with one next developer and he is interested in porting next to Mezzano.
2019-10-01T03:51:49Z ebrasca: I think with McCLIM for GUI.
2019-10-01T03:52:31Z no-defun-allowed: The browser next?
2019-10-01T03:52:34Z ebrasca: yes
2019-10-01T03:53:00Z no-defun-allowed: Wouldn't you have to port (or replace) WebKit then?
2019-10-01T03:53:18Z beach: I was going to say something like that.
2019-10-01T03:53:39Z ebrasca: He say if he can do it is ETA 1 year
2019-10-01T03:55:23Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe it's possible with Iota, but then wouldn't you also have to port whatever graphics libraries WebKit uses (such as OpenGL possibly)?
2019-10-01T03:56:45Z ebrasca: Part of email "We just need to write a web renderer in Common Lisp" and "This is a bit of a way off though, at least a year"
2019-10-01T03:56:54Z ebrasca: no-defun-allowed: I don't know more.
2019-10-01T03:58:59Z beach: OK, so I read the Wikipedia page about sockets, and it looks like (with some adaptation) it could be a non-Unix abstraction as well.  Things like file descriptors would have to be abandoned, of course.
2019-10-01T03:59:09Z ebrasca: I am not sure if it is nice to share parts of emails in public.
2019-10-01T03:59:42Z no-defun-allowed: You probably shouldn't.
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2019-10-01T04:00:06Z no-defun-allowed: I think "at least a year" is a bit of an understatement though.
2019-10-01T04:00:26Z ebrasca: beach: I have someting working from usocket.
2019-10-01T04:00:35Z ebrasca: My link https://github.com/usocket/usocket/blob/master/backend/mezzano.lisp
2019-10-01T04:00:49Z ebrasca: merged
2019-10-01T04:01:06Z ebrasca: Here my github link https://github.com/ebrasca/usocket/blob/master/backend/mezzano.lisp
2019-10-01T04:02:44Z beach: ebrasca: I don't understand much.  Sorry.  It looks like most of your functions do nothing.
2019-10-01T04:02:54Z ebrasca: Here documentation about usocket backends: https://github.com/usocket/usocket/blob/master/notes/backends.txt
2019-10-01T04:03:38Z beach: I would have to read up on sockets and usocket to understand more, and that's not highest priority for me right now.
2019-10-01T04:04:13Z ebrasca: beach: Do you like to work with McCLIM ?
2019-10-01T04:04:47Z beach: ebrasca: Sure.  Why do you ask?
2019-10-01T04:05:13Z ebrasca: beach: Mezano can get help with McCLIM.
2019-10-01T04:05:33Z beach: ebrasca: If you are looking to give me more work, I am afraid you are out of luck.
2019-10-01T04:05:58Z ebrasca: beach: Why you asked then?
2019-10-01T04:06:56Z beach: Oh, about what is missing and what needs improvement?  I am interested in how complete Mezzano is and in which direction it is going.  I am not interested in contributing at this point.
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2019-10-01T04:07:34Z ebrasca: beach: I don't know what froggey is doing.
2019-10-01T04:08:28Z beach: OK.
2019-10-01T04:09:19Z ebrasca error in interpreter 0 Restart Ebrasca , 1 Asign new value to x , 2 abort to top level interpreter
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2019-10-01T04:10:40Z no-defun-allowed: 2
2019-10-01T04:11:35Z seok: can I keep my production server running just ignoring errors?
2019-10-01T04:12:08Z seok: Do I need to compile it? Or would it be ok to keep the repl on even if it is spitting errors?
2019-10-01T04:12:38Z seok: sorry, live server not production
2019-10-01T04:13:22Z ebrasca: seok: I think when you write someting inside repl it get compiled.
2019-10-01T04:13:41Z no-defun-allowed: You can, and your server is still compiled even if you're at a REPL typing in functions.
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2019-10-01T04:15:04Z seok: Guess that's the only way
2019-10-01T04:15:56Z no-defun-allowed: But you probably should investigate the source of your errors.
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2019-10-01T04:16:18Z seok: There's an error that spews out using fukamachi's websocket library when you set the server to a variable, then a client disconnects
2019-10-01T04:16:47Z seok: and I am too newbie to write my own websocket library with usocket
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2019-10-01T04:17:04Z seok: I'd like to fix it, but the job is beyond me. haha
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2019-10-01T05:25:35Z no-defun-allowed: Is there a CL function I can use to check all elements of a sequence are different?
2019-10-01T05:26:34Z beach: You can try to apply REMOVE-DUPLICATES and see whether the result is the same length as the original.
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2019-10-01T05:26:47Z beach: It is probably not terribly efficient.
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2019-10-01T05:27:03Z no-defun-allowed: That's what I have right now, but -- yeah, that's what I was thinking too.
2019-10-01T05:27:39Z beach: Otherwise, if your elements can be compared using one of the comparison functions supported by hash tables, you can loop and enter the elements into one as you go.
2019-10-01T05:28:07Z no-defun-allowed: True.
2019-10-01T05:30:12Z no-defun-allowed: Stepping back a bit, I don't really like my process to generate all the combinations of (0 1 2 3) in a specific order either: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1506
2019-10-01T05:33:08Z beach: (loop for table = (make-hash-table ...) for element in list never (gethash element table) do (setf (gethash element table) t)) something like that.
2019-10-01T05:33:42Z no-defun-allowed: Gotcha, thanks.
2019-10-01T05:34:44Z beach: Oh, that technique is very inefficient.
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2019-10-01T05:38:26Z beach: Try defining a recursive function that returns all the combinations of the elements of a list.
2019-10-01T05:38:56Z beach: In each invocation, select all the elements in order.  For each element selected, remove it and call recursively.
2019-10-01T05:39:05Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
2019-10-01T05:39:09Z beach: At backtrack, cons the selected element only every sublist.
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2019-10-01T05:40:42Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: also, look at the ALEXANDRIA library... map-permutations and similar.
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2019-10-01T05:42:32Z no-defun-allowed: I think I've gotten it: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1507
2019-10-01T05:42:54Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe line 4 can be removed though.
2019-10-01T05:43:29Z no-defun-allowed: ...no, that has to stay.
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2019-10-01T05:43:58Z beach: Really?
2019-10-01T05:44:07Z beach: I was going to suggest that it is not needed
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2019-10-01T05:44:57Z no-defun-allowed: When I did, I just got an empty list.
2019-10-01T05:45:15Z beach: Maybe you are right.
2019-10-01T05:46:20Z beach: No, wait, the base case (for the empty list) is '(()).
2019-10-01T05:46:29Z no-defun-allowed: Good point.
2019-10-01T05:47:25Z beach: It is easy to get the base case wrong.  And then the code gets unnecessarily more complicated and harder to understand.
2019-10-01T05:47:55Z no-defun-allowed: Definitely.
2019-10-01T05:47:56Z beach: I see that problem over and over again.
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2019-10-01T05:52:12Z no-defun-allowed: That makes sense now. Thankyou.
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2019-10-01T05:53:48Z White_Flame: I may be stupid, but is there a way for LOOP to return the final value of one of its variable?
2019-10-01T05:53:56Z White_Flame: +s
2019-10-01T05:54:28Z no-defun-allowed: The only way I know of is to include `finally (return <variable>)` as the last clause, but I don't think it's very pretty.
2019-10-01T05:54:41Z White_Flame: yeah, that just rubber-ducked to me as I said this
2019-10-01T05:55:00Z White_Flame: it seems the only "natural" return values from LOOP are the accumulation clauses?
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2019-10-01T05:56:25Z flip214: > During each iteration, the constructs collect and collecting collect the value of the supplied form into a list. When iteration terminates, the list is returned.
2019-10-01T05:56:35Z flip214: > If into is used, the construct does not provide a default return value
2019-10-01T05:56:40Z flip214: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/06_ac.htm
2019-10-01T05:56:42Z flip214: White_Flame: ^^
2019-10-01T05:58:17Z White_Flame: hmm, can't see yet how that would be used for this
2019-10-01T05:59:10Z White_Flame: except finally (return (last collect-into-var)), which is worse than the original
2019-10-01T05:59:56Z White_Flame: this is a dumb little code golf.  I wonder if just doing a recursive LABELS would be smaller.
2019-10-01T06:00:22Z White_Flame: which tends to happen once more complex loop clauses come into play
2019-10-01T06:00:27Z flip214: if you only need the last element of a collection, why not have that in a variable (without collecting) and just return that one?
2019-10-01T06:00:47Z White_Flame: that was the original question:  how to return the final value of a loop var?
2019-10-01T06:01:02Z White_Flame: hence finally (return var)
2019-10-01T06:01:21Z White_Flame: what's missing was simply that there's no LOOP-specific return value outside accumulation clauses, afaict
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2019-10-01T06:01:45Z White_Flame: whereas the RETURN sidesteps the LOOP return value
2019-10-01T06:02:44Z flip214: White_Flame: oh, you want http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/06_ad.htm
2019-10-01T06:03:08Z flip214: > The constructs always, never, and thereis provide specific values to be returned when a loop terminates
2019-10-01T06:03:26Z flip214: > The thereis construct terminates iteration the first time that the value of the supplied form is non-nil; the loop returns the value of the supplied form
2019-10-01T06:03:29Z White_Flame: hmm, yeah, but they force termination instead of just returning a value when the iterators finish
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2019-10-01T06:04:22Z flip214: to return just the last value of a variable there's no other way than "finally (return VAR)"
2019-10-01T06:05:00Z flip214: (apart from not using a LOOP-variable but some outer LET binding instead, and returning that: (let (var) (loop for i below 5 do (setf var i)) var)
2019-10-01T06:05:01Z White_Flame: yep, seems so.  It just seems like a weird lack of FINALLY, that it doesn't return the value of the form it evaluates
2019-10-01T06:05:31Z flip214: that's so it doesn't interfere with other loop termination clauses like THEREIS and COLLECT ;)
2019-10-01T06:06:00Z aeth: wow, thereis a thereis
2019-10-01T06:06:05Z White_Flame: hmm, yeah I guess
2019-10-01T06:06:32Z flip214: I still like ITERATE more, it better integrates with other code than via LOOP's DO
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2019-10-01T11:21:57Z varjag: so, let's say i have a method creating closures and placing them into job list (within a class instance)
2019-10-01T11:22:18Z varjag: another worker thread cosnumes them and executes closures when external conditions are met
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2019-10-01T11:22:49Z varjag: what's the easiest way to make the original thread (with creator method) wait for completion here?
2019-10-01T11:23:14Z shka__: varjag: call join thread on the new thread
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2019-10-01T11:23:22Z shka__: *on the new thread object
2019-10-01T11:23:29Z shka__: on the original thread :-)
2019-10-01T11:23:43Z varjag: the worker thread isn't spawned by the creator thread
2019-10-01T11:23:52Z varjag: and it's only one, not per job
2019-10-01T11:24:07Z Shinmera: use a condition variable, I guess.
2019-10-01T11:24:16Z varjag: and poll it?
2019-10-01T11:24:20Z Shinmera: ? no
2019-10-01T11:24:21Z shka__: varjag: maybe just use lparallel?
2019-10-01T11:24:44Z Shinmera: read the BT docs on condition variables.
2019-10-01T11:24:47Z shka__: or there is a standalone future library called blackbird
2019-10-01T11:25:01Z varjag: ah
2019-10-01T11:25:02Z shka__: or if you really roll your own, what Shinmera said
2019-10-01T11:25:06Z Shinmera: but yeah, using lparallel is preferred if you can.
2019-10-01T11:25:20Z flip214: +1 on lparallel
2019-10-01T11:25:29Z jackdaniel: use a blocking read on a mailbox
2019-10-01T11:25:34Z Shinmera: Colleen: look up bordeaux-threads make-condition-variable
2019-10-01T11:25:34Z Colleen: Function make-condition-variable make-condition-variable https://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation#make-condition-variable
2019-10-01T11:25:36Z varjag: shka__: the operation here is neither entirely synchronized nor asynchronous, so haven't found one framework that quite fits
2019-10-01T11:25:38Z Shinmera: yay, it still works
2019-10-01T11:26:21Z varjag: thanks
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2019-10-01T11:34:27Z thijso: varjag: sounds like you're building a threadpool. Have you seen https://github.com/Frechmatz/cl-threadpool ?
2019-10-01T11:36:06Z varjag: thijso: not quite that.. i have a bunch of communicator threads to remote devices
2019-10-01T11:36:16Z varjag: that are perishable, but jobs should persist
2019-10-01T11:36:43Z varjag: and when completed remotely, should complete the action on c&c host
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2019-10-01T11:38:01Z shka__: varjag: IIRC blackbird is rather nifty solution for that
2019-10-01T11:38:28Z varjag: i'll look into that… only seen it in context of cl-async
2019-10-01T11:38:31Z shka__: i really prefer to use lparallel when i can though
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2019-10-01T12:52:26Z froggey: beach: Mezzano is a reasonably complete CL implementation, but very incomplete operating system. for day to day use it needs a proper editor & development environment, a web browser (youtube support would be nice, but I'm not getting my hopes up), and various minor nice things like a music player
2019-10-01T12:52:47Z froggey: and there are long term improvements: a faster compiler that generates better code, improved source location information, more drivers, a better GC, improved conformance, endless bug fixes, etc
2019-10-01T12:53:17Z Shinmera: More Alloy progress. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/297478350145060875/628574141976543243/2019-10-01_14-45-15.mkv.gif
2019-10-01T12:54:48Z beach: froggey: Got it, thanks.
2019-10-01T12:55:35Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: link gives "access denied" error (not that I know what is More Alloy)
2019-10-01T12:55:37Z beach: froggey: There is no reason we can't attempt to collaborate on some things.  We are working on an IDE including an editor.
2019-10-01T12:56:03Z beach: froggey: And Cleavir with Eclector has good source location information.
2019-10-01T12:56:03Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Oh. Sorry about that. https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRnd013PT0=
2019-10-01T12:56:52Z beach: froggey: I don't know how attached you are to your current compiler, but we definitely intend for Cleavir to become better.  It has good potential for it.
2019-10-01T12:56:59Z dlowe: froggey: I would expect adding device support would be the main problem for Mezzano if you were wanting to run it on hardware
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2019-10-01T12:57:38Z beach: froggey: And, perhaps you want to read the chapter on garbage collection in the SICL specification to see what you think?
2019-10-01T12:58:06Z beach: froggey: On the other hand, maybe you are doing this to amuse yourself and you would rather just hack away.  That's fine too.
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2019-10-01T13:00:52Z beach: froggey: If you are interested in any of those things, I'll be happy to explain some more strategies we have and/or point you to documents to read.
2019-10-01T13:01:27Z beach: froggey: You don't seem to hang out in #sicl, where we do most of our musings, so as to avoid too much noise here.
2019-10-01T13:01:48Z froggey: beach: it's entirely for my own amusement, but I'm absolutely up for collaboration. especially on higher level things like IDEs, I do low level programming, that kind of thing is a little beyond me
2019-10-01T13:02:10Z beach: Oh, that sounds like a perfect opportunity for collaboration then.
2019-10-01T13:02:18Z froggey: Cleavir was the portable/implementation independent compiler, right?
2019-10-01T13:02:24Z beach: Yes.
2019-10-01T13:03:54Z froggey: I'm not particularly attached to the current compiler, but it does have a minimum set of features that any replacement would need to meet. fast unboxed arithmetic, simd support, and following the mezzano abi of course
2019-10-01T13:04:07Z beach: Sure.
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2019-10-01T13:05:12Z froggey: dlowe: drivers aren't that big a deal, a few generic drivers can cover a large number of systems. AHCI for disks, OHCI/UHCI/EHCI for USB controllers, network cards are the big issues where there's not much common ground
2019-10-01T13:05:30Z froggey: graphics cards too, but a simple framebuffer is enough for me
2019-10-01T13:05:54Z froggey: beach: what's the SICL specification? I'll have a look?
2019-10-01T13:06:04Z beach: Cleavir does not do SIMD (yet), but unboxed arithmetic is in there.  The point of Cleavir is that it can adapt to the client.  That way, Clasp can use it, as can CLISP (in addition to SICL), so I think I have proved that it is sufficiently customizable).
2019-10-01T13:06:13Z beach: froggey: Hold on...
2019-10-01T13:07:14Z beach: http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-specification.pdf
2019-10-01T13:07:51Z beach: froggey: Chapter 23 is the garbage collector.
2019-10-01T13:10:34Z beach: froggey: It's a lot to read, so don't feel you have to.
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2019-10-01T13:12:22Z beach: froggey: But let's keep the dialog open, especially with respect to the IDE.
2019-10-01T13:12:43Z beach: froggey: scymtym has already done a lot of work in Clouseau, the McCLIM inspector.
2019-10-01T13:13:00Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Metamodular is standard specification?
2019-10-01T13:13:15Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: No.
2019-10-01T13:13:52Z beach: froggey: And I have preliminary ideas on the Second Climacs editor, as well as on the Clordane debugger (a real debugger, not a backtrace examiner).
2019-10-01T13:14:01Z asdf_asdf_asdf: This is a common article?
2019-10-01T13:14:09Z beach: No.
2019-10-01T13:14:32Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: You can safely ignore both Metamodular and SICL.
2019-10-01T13:16:30Z froggey: beach: I don't think it's directly applicable, our object models seem too different. though I'll keep it in mind
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2019-10-01T13:16:40Z froggey: just from a quick skim
2019-10-01T13:16:46Z beach: froggey: Ah, right.
2019-10-01T13:17:07Z beach: froggey: I forgot about the reliance on the SICL object model in the GC.  Sorry.
2019-10-01T13:17:58Z beach: I was thinking more about the division between per-thread collectors and the global collector.
2019-10-01T13:21:00Z froggey: ok, I'll try to remember to have a closer look the next time I feel like doing GC work
2019-10-01T13:21:17Z beach: OK, again, don't feel you have to.
2019-10-01T13:21:51Z beach: I got the idea from a paper by some French colleagues.  I think their paper was for CAML.
2019-10-01T13:22:16Z beach: But I simplified it by not allowing cross pointers between threads.
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2019-10-01T13:25:07Z beach: froggey: Speaking of which, have you given some more thought to coming to ELS, and perhaps even to submitting a paper?
2019-10-01T13:25:29Z beach: froggey: I think your work is important, and there are a bunch of people at ELS who do not follow IRC.
2019-10-01T13:25:57Z Shinmera: Mezzano would be fantastic to have at ELS, even if it's just a demo paper.
2019-10-01T13:26:10Z beach: I totally agree.
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2019-10-01T13:28:54Z froggey: eh. it's not likely. there are some changes in my personal life that might make attending ELS possible, but don't get your hopes up
2019-10-01T13:29:22Z beach: Hmm, OK.
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2019-10-01T13:32:41Z froggey: for the IDE, is there anything that is practically usable right now? even if it's incomplete
2019-10-01T13:33:15Z beach: No, not as such.  But the Clouseau inspector is quite usable.
2019-10-01T13:33:38Z froggey: my current focus is on running on real hardware as an independent system, so that does requires an editor and something at least a bit slime-like
2019-10-01T13:33:41Z froggey: oh well
2019-10-01T13:34:27Z beach: The McCLIM listener and the backtrace inspector (called the "debugger" but isn't one) are also usable.
2019-10-01T13:34:48Z beach: So you basically have SLIME minus Emacs in those.
2019-10-01T13:35:01Z beach: And I believe (first) Climacs is still usable with McCLIM.
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2019-10-01T13:35:19Z beach: But these components have not been turned into an IDE.
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2019-10-01T13:35:28Z froggey: I can work on backend things in the meantime, McCLIM's Mezzano port hits some very slow paths that I need to improve
2019-10-01T13:35:42Z beach: Sounds great!
2019-10-01T13:36:04Z froggey: Mezzano's native editor works, but I don't really want to use it...
2019-10-01T13:36:17Z beach: Heh!
2019-10-01T13:36:54Z beach: I don't know the state of the frame-buffer backend for McCLIM, but that is something I would like to see working some day.
2019-10-01T13:37:01Z jackdaniel: it works
2019-10-01T13:37:07Z beach: Great!
2019-10-01T13:37:09Z jackdaniel: painfully slow, but still
2019-10-01T13:37:27Z jackdaniel: it is based on cl-vectors, but I have something better integrated with McCLIM on mind
2019-10-01T13:37:31Z beach: So there would be an opportunity for froggey to do work that would benefit both Mezzano and McCLIM.
2019-10-01T13:38:00Z beach: I mean, I assume Mezzano has nothing but a frame buffer at the bottom of the rendering stack.
2019-10-01T13:38:00Z jackdaniel: McCLIM works (or worked) on Mezzano
2019-10-01T13:38:08Z froggey: it works and shipped with the last mezzano demo release
2019-10-01T13:38:12Z beach: Sure.
2019-10-01T13:38:27Z beach: But I was thinking of the performance of the frame-buffer backend.
2019-10-01T13:39:04Z jackdaniel: we can speed it up a lot, that's for sure, but there is a limit of what you can do on a single processor
2019-10-01T13:39:39Z beach: I see yes.  But we typically have more than one. :)
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2019-10-01T13:42:00Z scymtym: i have local changes that make the framebuffer backend quite usable (when compiled with SBCL)
2019-10-01T13:42:04Z jackdaniel: I would rather keep McCLIM in a single process, there already are plenty of gotchas;
2019-10-01T13:42:51Z jackdaniel: (thread-safe, but doing its work in a single thread, at least per-frame)
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2019-10-01T14:16:32Z froggey: beach: btw, if you want to chat more I'm around fairly often. weekday evenings (after 5pm uk time) or weekends are usually the best times to get a hold of me
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2019-10-01T14:26:58Z beach: froggey: That means weekends for me then.  I usually go spend time with my (admittedly small) family when you are free during weekdays.
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2019-10-01T17:42:41Z skidd0: system npg is listed on quicklisp's unofficial docs, but when i attempt to load it in my image it cannot be found
2019-10-01T17:42:57Z skidd0: am i doing something wrong or is this an issue i should report to QL?
2019-10-01T17:44:33Z Xach: skidd0: the unofficial docs have little to do with current quicklisp-provided software
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2019-10-01T17:45:13Z Xach: skidd0: npg does not build any more and is not part of quicklisp
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2019-10-01T17:51:05Z Xach: It used to build but broke and the maintainer did not update things.
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2019-10-01T17:54:40Z skidd0: i see
2019-10-01T17:54:42Z skidd0: thank you
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2019-10-01T20:02:53Z Lycurgus: drmeister, had/did it occur to you to have clasp not be an implementation and be implementation agnostic?
2019-10-01T20:03:30Z Lycurgus: s/had/has/
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2019-10-01T20:03:45Z Shinmera: what
2019-10-01T20:04:04Z drmeister: Can you elaborate.
2019-10-01T20:04:36Z Lycurgus: i mean it could be a pkg that gets adapted for different or a basket of implementations to produce binaries
2019-10-01T20:04:51Z Shinmera: what?
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2019-10-01T20:05:14Z drmeister: No one has successfully created a Common Lisp system that can interoperate with C++.
2019-10-01T20:05:22Z drmeister: Other than Clasp.
2019-10-01T20:06:04Z Lycurgus: i c, ty
2019-10-01T20:07:16Z drmeister: If you are asking - "why go to the trouble of developing a completely new implementation of Common Lisp".  Answer: (1) I wanted interoperation with C++ (2) I didn't know how much work would be involved (3) It's been extremely enlightening.
2019-10-01T20:07:51Z Lycurgus: no I asked the question I wanted to know about, and you answered, ty again
2019-10-01T20:08:00Z dlowe: The only other option would have been to write a complete C++ compiler in CL, which is even scarier.
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2019-10-01T20:08:39Z drmeister: Lycurgus: No worries.
2019-10-01T20:09:33Z drmeister: dlowe: Now that ... would be crazy.  :-)
2019-10-01T20:11:57Z edgar-rft: one cannot write a complete C++ compiler because C++ is still imcomplete, they're working on C++20
2019-10-01T20:13:51Z Lycurgus: the sort of thing I meant would have been close to FFI and SWIG like, but nevermind
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2019-10-01T20:29:21Z selwyn: it is not possible to interoperate satisfactorily with c++ in that way for various non-trivial reasons not all of which i understand
2019-10-01T20:31:45Z asdf_asdf_asdf: selwyn. You can use SBCL instructions.
2019-10-01T20:31:47Z drmeister: Exception handling is a big one.
2019-10-01T20:32:42Z drmeister: It's relatively easy to call C++ code via C wrappers.  But soon you want to be calling C++ code and passing Common Lisp callbacks and vice-versa.   Modern C++ libraries do all kinds of stuff.
2019-10-01T20:34:33Z drmeister: Someone who says - isn't it just SWIG and FFI?   Nope - it's not - it turns out to be way more difficult than that.  If it was that easy - someone would have done it.
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2019-10-01T20:35:19Z asdf_asdf_asdf: drmeister. What You not works? Show the code.
2019-10-01T20:35:53Z asdf_asdf_asdf: drmeister. You can use SBCL instructions instead other packages.
2019-10-01T20:36:04Z Shinmera: asdf_asdf_asdf: please stop.
2019-10-01T20:38:36Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Shinmera. You should quit from the chat.
2019-10-01T20:38:46Z Bike: why have we not banned this person yet
2019-10-01T20:38:55Z Shinmera: I don't know. Who has mod rights?
2019-10-01T20:39:24Z Bike: fe[nl]ix, i guess? and a bunch of people i don't remember
2019-10-01T20:39:27Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Why? I nothing do.
2019-10-01T20:39:31Z Shinmera: I think Xach does.
2019-10-01T20:39:41Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2019-10-01T20:40:09Z Bike: you're unwilling to listen to anyone's advice, combative when you don't agree with it, and you know nothing about the subject of the channel but try to tell everyone they're wrong all the time.
2019-10-01T20:40:10Z Shinmera: asdf_asdf_asdf: You have been told numerous times by numerous people that your messages are distracting, misleading, and not constructive as you lack the proper insight and knowledge to provide useful advice.
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2019-10-01T20:42:47Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I do not mislead others. You mislead others in mistakes. I try a constructive advice. Not Like You.
2019-10-01T20:43:09Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Not as You*
2019-10-01T20:43:54Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel
2019-10-01T20:44:10Z asdf_asdf_asdf [~jackdanie@hellsgate.pl] has been kicked from #lisp by jackdaniel (asdf_asdf_asdf)
2019-10-01T20:44:17Z Bike: thanks, mon.
2019-10-01T20:44:21Z jackdaniel: hm, "channel ban list is full"
2019-10-01T20:44:28Z jackdaniel: this is beyond my scope of irc expertise
2019-10-01T20:44:29Z Bike: so controversial
2019-10-01T20:44:33Z jackdaniel has set mode -o jackdaniel
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2019-10-01T20:44:43Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: got to remove a couple from the ban list then, I suppose.
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2019-10-01T20:45:17Z jackdaniel: I gather so much, but manipulating this list is beyond my scope of expertise (and interest ;)
2019-10-01T20:45:22Z jackdaniel: good night \o
2019-10-01T20:45:28Z Shinmera: Fair enough. Good night!
2019-10-01T20:45:29Z selwyn: goodnight
2019-10-01T20:45:30Z Bike: good night.
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2019-10-01T21:24:52Z p_l: cleaned up the banlist a bit
2019-10-01T21:24:57Z Shinmera: Thanks!
2019-10-01T21:25:04Z p_l: took mostly the too-specific bans down
2019-10-01T21:25:22Z p_l: also holy shit, that's a lot of my bans there
2019-10-01T21:25:55Z p_l: I think we might be able to drop pretty much all of them, I think after few years the perps moved on
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2019-10-01T21:26:09Z Shinmera: Can always ban again, yeah.
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2019-10-01T21:26:52Z p_l: ok, going to unban... maybe not all, but close?
2019-10-01T21:26:56Z p_l: or maybe all would be better
2019-10-01T21:27:01Z p_l: it's really been years for some
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2019-10-01T21:28:33Z Shinmera: Some of these domain and user names are quite something.
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2019-10-01T21:29:21Z p_l: sorry for the spam, I'd say it's an example of why UX design in terms of input stability *matters*
2019-10-01T21:31:03Z p_l: our banlist is empty
2019-10-01T21:31:28Z Shinmera: Hopefully it won't have to fill up again too quickly.
2019-10-01T21:34:37Z p_l: we have been dealing with full banlist for the last 5 years
2019-10-01T21:35:05Z p_l: I need to check +q list
2019-10-01T21:35:13Z p_l: but since I started using irccloud that became a bit harder
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2019-10-01T21:45:12Z p_l: Ok, I think I've got some idea how to clean remaining issues
2019-10-01T21:46:19Z Bike: thanks for all that
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2019-10-01T21:52:35Z p_l: heh, my flags don't go high enough to use the CLEAR command
2019-10-01T21:52:46Z p_l: but we should have a bit more breathing space there
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2019-10-01T21:57:40Z p_l: might need to actually invest in a channel bot more advanced than minion
2019-10-01T21:57:43Z p_l: minion: sorry
2019-10-01T21:57:43Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``sorry''.
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2019-10-01T22:17:02Z Shinmera: p_l: If you could write up what you'd need I could see about it, maybe.
2019-10-01T22:17:18Z p_l: Shinmera: for the bot?
2019-10-01T22:17:22Z Shinmera: Yes.
2019-10-01T22:18:25Z p_l: ok
2019-10-01T22:18:56Z p_l: I was thinking mostly of having something to track and "age" bans
2019-10-01T22:19:24Z Shinmera: That's easy enough, sure.
2019-10-01T22:21:07Z Shinmera: p_l: https://github.com/Shirakumo/maiden/issues/6
2019-10-01T22:21:14Z Shinmera: Not sure when I'll get to it, but I'll keep it in mind.
2019-10-01T22:22:27Z Shinmera: For now, off to sleep.
2019-10-01T22:23:43Z p_l: 'night
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2019-10-01T22:49:13Z Ober: failed AVER: (= (HASH-TABLE-COUNT SB-IMPL::TABLE) SB-IMPL::HWM);
2019-10-01T22:49:55Z Ober: This is probably a bug in SBCL itself.
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2019-10-01T23:23:44Z jasom: proper way for having a lookup table?  I found that (define-symbol-macro +foo+ (load-time-value (make-array ...) t)) generates tighter code on SBCL compared to just a defparameter.  Thoughts?
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2019-10-01T23:28:18Z Bike: defparameter means it has to check the dynamic binding stack, so yeah a constant or load time value ought ot be faster
2019-10-01T23:28:29Z Bike: but if you use that in multiple places you might have multiple lookup tables
2019-10-01T23:28:33Z Bike: (which you may or may not care about)
2019-10-01T23:29:46Z jasom: I'd rather not have multiple lookup tables, but I can't figure out a way to do so without hitting the binding stack.
2019-10-01T23:30:33Z Bike: if you use an actual constant it might be coalesced
2019-10-01T23:32:26Z jasom: can I use a constant?  How do I ensure it's identical between compile and run time?
2019-10-01T23:33:30Z Bike: it's an array, right? what's in it?
2019-10-01T23:34:02Z jasom: unsigned-byte 8
2019-10-01T23:34:13Z jasom: s/8/16
2019-10-01T23:34:17Z Bike: oh well that's fine then
2019-10-01T23:34:37Z Bike: you can't ensure it's "identical" because the compiler and the running image might be different, but they'll be basically the same array
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2019-10-01T23:36:34Z jasom: Are you talking about with define-constant?  because that signals an error when I try it
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2019-10-01T23:36:54Z Bike: or just a literal, yeah
2019-10-01T23:37:01Z Bike: defconstant won't work because the arrays won't be eql
2019-10-01T23:37:16Z Bike: but you can just put in something so it won't try to change the constant if it's already set. think that's what the alexandria define-constant does
2019-10-01T23:39:17Z Bike: with test equalp
2019-10-01T23:39:34Z jasom: ah
2019-10-01T23:39:41Z jasom: I think I understand now
2019-10-01T23:40:02Z Bike: defconstant is kind of hard to use, unfortunately
2019-10-01T23:40:41Z jasom: yup
2019-10-01T23:41:08Z jasom: well it's easy to use for simple things like keywords and fixnums
2019-10-01T23:43:57Z jasom: alexandria:define-constant works and it's about 8% higher throughput compared to the defparameter version.
2019-10-01T23:44:06Z Bike: really! very nice.
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2019-10-01T23:45:37Z Bike: sbcl also has a "defglobal" mechanism, that's kind of like a special that can't be bound as i understand
2019-10-01T23:45:45Z Bike: but if you actually have a constant using a constant is probably best
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2019-10-01T23:53:35Z jasom: The inner loop is very tight so it's not surprising I get a speedup.  Only strange thing is that it does load the constant into RAX twice in about 4 instructions despite there not being register pressure.
2019-10-01T23:55:00Z jasom: I'm guessing it generates a new cosntant for each function too because it uses a pc-relative addressing for it.
2019-10-01T23:56:18Z Bike: yeah, maybe.
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2019-10-02T04:38:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-02T05:21:04Z drmeister: Howdy beach
2019-10-02T05:23:57Z drmeister: How's the code-generation coming along?
2019-10-02T05:24:30Z beach: So so.
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2019-10-02T06:41:09Z splittist: Good morning #lisp
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2019-10-02T06:42:27Z Duuqnd: Good morning.
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2019-10-02T06:42:59Z shrdlu68: Good morning :)
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2019-10-02T06:50:08Z p_l: jasom: it could be copying a reference to the actual array to function header as a constant
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2019-10-02T07:36:10Z beach: Duuqnd: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
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2019-10-02T07:39:24Z Duuqnd: I've been mostly been lurking here for a while, but yeah I don't talk much at all.
2019-10-02T07:39:40Z beach: Got it.
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2019-10-02T09:11:39Z jmercouris: let's say I'm using alexandria in my source, but I don't want to type out alexandria:function every time I want to do something
2019-10-02T09:11:50Z jmercouris: is there a way to give a package nickname so I can type axl:function instead?
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2019-10-02T09:12:02Z jmercouris: I know how to do it in my own defpackage, but what about when I am using another package from someone else?
2019-10-02T09:13:04Z jackdaniel: you want to add nicknames to someone else's package? that's not very polite
2019-10-02T09:13:20Z jackdaniel: package-local-nicknames specify protocol which may be used outside of defpackage
2019-10-02T09:13:23Z jmercouris: I want to use those nicknames in my source, for someone else's package, yes
2019-10-02T09:13:57Z jackdaniel: why do you have source put in someone else's package though?
2019-10-02T09:14:09Z jmercouris: no, sorry, it is unclear
2019-10-02T09:14:12Z jmercouris: I am writing my own program
2019-10-02T09:14:14Z jackdaniel: indeed
2019-10-02T09:14:15Z jmercouris: I am using alexanderia
2019-10-02T09:14:25Z jmercouris: alexandria is very verbose to write every time
2019-10-02T09:14:37Z jmercouris: so I want to simply write axl when calling a function from the alexandria package
2019-10-02T09:14:53Z jackdaniel: check out "package-local-nicknames"
2019-10-02T09:14:57Z jackdaniel: in your implementation documentation
2019-10-02T09:15:09Z jackdaniel: currently abcl, ccl, ecl and sbcl have them
2019-10-02T09:15:18Z jackdaniel: it is a language extension
2019-10-02T09:15:23Z jmercouris: Ok, I see
2019-10-02T09:15:28Z jmercouris: thats why I couldn't find it in the hyperspec
2019-10-02T09:15:35Z jmercouris: any experience with this: https://github.com/phoe/trivial-package-local-nicknames ?
2019-10-02T09:15:41Z jmercouris: it seems to be some sort of compatibility layer?
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2019-10-02T09:16:27Z jackdaniel: phoe put a lot of effort to have PLN in CCL, so I would be surprised if he did something wrong in this compat library
2019-10-02T09:16:35Z jackdaniel: that said I have not used it
2019-10-02T09:16:37Z White_Flame: a spec-compatible way would be to (defpackage axl (:use :alexandria) (:export ...))
2019-10-02T09:16:57Z White_Flame: or some equivalent thereof.  You can iterate the public symbols of alexandria and reexport them programmatically
2019-10-02T09:17:05Z jmercouris: interesting
2019-10-02T09:17:24Z White_Flame: but, this is literally what package local nicknames are for, so I'd recommend using the newfangleys
2019-10-02T09:17:29Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: that works until someone else wants to use axl for axiom-less package
2019-10-02T09:17:37Z jackdaniel: (in the same image)
2019-10-02T09:17:37Z White_Flame: yep
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2019-10-02T09:19:42Z jmercouris: Wouldn't you have thave the same issue with package nicknames?
2019-10-02T09:19:49Z jmercouris: I don't see how it would be avoidable
2019-10-02T09:20:11Z jmercouris: are you saying it would be somehow different because there'd be a compiler warning emitted or something?
2019-10-02T09:20:11Z jackdaniel: that's why package-local-nicknames were invented
2019-10-02T09:20:23Z jmercouris: Oh, I get it now
2019-10-02T09:20:27Z jackdaniel: package-local-nicknames are nicknames stored in *your own* package
2019-10-02T09:20:30Z jmercouris: that would make a package that conflicts in the image
2019-10-02T09:20:33Z White_Flame: yeah, they're not the CLHS nicknames
2019-10-02T09:20:36Z jmercouris: wherewas the nickname would be local to the package
2019-10-02T09:20:40Z jmercouris: I get it, yes
2019-10-02T09:20:53Z jmercouris: it's all in the name :D
2019-10-02T09:21:10Z jackdaniel: so when you say bam:foox when you are in #:your-package, then reader first looks inside #:your-package for bam, only after that in a global namespace
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2019-10-02T09:21:43Z jmercouris: right
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2019-10-02T09:38:02Z no-defun-allowed: Is there anything like conspack (though the format doesn't have to be compatible) that supports bignums?
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2019-10-02T09:49:53Z no-defun-allowed: hu.dwim.serializer fits that pretty well, never mind.
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2019-10-02T11:17:45Z Harag: has anybody got smartparens and ergoemacs working together nicely? what is the trick?
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2019-10-02T11:23:52Z Shinmera: that's a question for #emacs, not here.
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2019-10-02T11:25:57Z Harag: yeah
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2019-10-02T11:26:46Z m00natic: me uses both sp and ergo, maybe this will help you https://github.com/m00natic/dot-emacs/blob/602e91694001dcb6dd70ff90e713c4e9e2ef77e3/conf/my-lisp.el#L28
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2019-10-02T11:53:04Z jmercouris: new version of Next: https://next.atlas.engineer/article/release-1.3.3-multiple-selection-git-clone-and-much-more.org
2019-10-02T11:53:12Z jmercouris: lots of new stuff in there, feedback appreciated
2019-10-02T11:53:29Z shka__: jmercouris: qt?
2019-10-02T11:53:39Z jmercouris: shka__: I'm working on a branch, rewriting from Python to C++
2019-10-02T11:53:49Z jmercouris: shka__: not yet very good in my opinion
2019-10-02T11:53:52Z shka__: ok
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2019-10-02T12:20:29Z shangul: https://notabug.org/farooqkz/msim
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2019-10-02T12:57:58Z beach: shangul: Posting links without telling us what is links to is typical troll behavior.
2019-10-02T12:58:43Z beach: s/is links/it links/
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2019-10-02T14:00:34Z thijso: Does anyone have any idea why my app crashes on startup after I include bordeaux-threads in my depends-on list in my .asd? That is literally the only thing that's changed. I'm thinking there might be some eval-when stuff in bt that is breaking stuff? Is that possible?
2019-10-02T14:01:02Z Bike: crashes how?
2019-10-02T14:01:16Z jackdaniel: I think that more people would have the issue with bt if it did something underhanded
2019-10-02T14:01:29Z jackdaniel: (it is a common dependency)
2019-10-02T14:01:40Z jackdaniel: could you show the asd file and describe how it crashes?
2019-10-02T14:02:20Z Shinmera: also what implementation, etc.
2019-10-02T14:02:27Z thijso: Bike: jackdaniel: it's an app on my android phone, built with EQL5-android
2019-10-02T14:02:53Z thijso: Bike: the app just closes after opening for a moment
2019-10-02T14:03:14Z thijso: In the (minimal) debug logging I've found, it says the process has died
2019-10-02T14:03:15Z jackdaniel: (let me clarify: you only add bt dependency, you are not creating any threads etc?)
2019-10-02T14:03:39Z thijso: jackdaniel: yep, the only change is adding ":bordeaux-threads" in my depends-on list in my .asd
2019-10-02T14:03:59Z thijso: So, somehow that is doing something on app startup, but I have no clue what
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2019-10-02T14:04:40Z jackdaniel: and when you load system with :verbose t, when exactly does it crash?
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2019-10-02T14:04:50Z jackdaniel: s/load system/load the system/
2019-10-02T14:05:03Z jackdaniel: can you load only bordeaux-threads without crash?
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2019-10-02T14:05:39Z thijso: The trouble is that that's not an option. The system is built such that lib is created for the app, which is loaded through some java/c++ hackery...
2019-10-02T14:05:46Z thijso: Might be that the problem is in there
2019-10-02T14:06:02Z thijso: My biggest challenge is trying to figure out how to properly debug this
2019-10-02T14:06:36Z thijso: But you do have a point, jackdaniel. I have an app built with the same stuff, where I get a repl where I should be able to quickload stuff. Lemme see what happens if I try bt there
2019-10-02T14:06:39Z jackdaniel: I can imagine that your particular android does not cover full pthread api
2019-10-02T14:06:51Z jackdaniel: (I remember they have missed many functions)
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2019-10-02T14:07:05Z thijso: I had it working previously, so I'm positive it *does* work
2019-10-02T14:08:53Z thijso: I'm trying to update some versions, ECL among others, but it's a very fragile system, so stuff breaks easily...
2019-10-02T14:09:41Z thijso: But in this case I have a 'working' app (does nothing, just starts and shows a page) without bt, and one that dies *with* bt...
2019-10-02T14:10:51Z thijso: I seem to be able to quickload :bt on the repl app... So I'm lost...
2019-10-02T14:12:03Z jackdaniel: maybe your toolchain and target system do not match?
2019-10-02T14:13:44Z thijso: I'm building with and without exactly the same, so that's not it, jackdaniel
2019-10-02T14:14:18Z jackdaniel: can you attach gdb to your process?
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2019-10-02T14:14:51Z thijso: Uhm... probably?
2019-10-02T14:15:01Z thijso: Not sure how that works on an android phone
2019-10-02T14:15:11Z thijso: probably something with adb and such
2019-10-02T14:15:29Z thijso: I guess it's google-time...
2019-10-02T14:15:44Z jackdaniel: if you have root privigiles you may install ordinary gdb ; but that is outside the scope of this channel
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2019-10-02T14:19:48Z thijso: ah, didn't know that, jackdaniel
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2019-10-02T14:28:46Z p_l: there's gdb-server on the device
2019-10-02T14:28:52Z p_l: thijso: ^
2019-10-02T14:29:23Z p_l: also, the EQL5 lib will be loaded into a process that already runs several threads, beware of that before assuming that you have single-threaded process
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2019-10-02T14:58:52Z thijso: p_l: thanks. And yeah, it's definitely not single threaded, even before adding bt
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2019-10-02T16:07:06Z jasom: p_l: I think you are right on the reference in the function header.  The various addressing modes of the x86 confuse me as I cut my teeth on load/store architectures.
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2019-10-02T16:19:42Z p_l: It's very load/store, even. Just that with a constant in old generation, you can bypass referencing symbol list, and store pointer in the area of function constants
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2019-10-02T18:26:55Z seok: hi everyone
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2019-10-02T18:46:11Z buffergn0me: hello
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2019-10-02T19:06:48Z krwq: With Lisp I always try to make my code as succint as possible and I also try to do that at work when working with other languages. Ocassionally though I find people complaining that shorter code is allegedly harder to read and I'm being asked to use the more verbose version. *sigh*
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2019-10-02T19:20:50Z shangul: beach, Sorry I didn't know that and I thought you have a bot or something which extracts title of the given url.
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2019-10-02T19:24:02Z shangul: https://notabug.org/farooqkz/msim <= Simulates the mafia party game with the role fool included. written in Common Lisp and uses sb-thread for multi-threading.
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2019-10-02T19:26:50Z LdBeth: krwq: try APL
2019-10-02T19:27:29Z krwq: LdBeth: anything I should be aware of before I look? :)
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2019-10-02T19:28:55Z krwq: LdBeth: do you generate the code with that or what? We currently mostly add features to existing code base which might make it a bit harder if that's the case
2019-10-02T19:29:10Z _death: shangul: cool.. one thing you should know is that CASE does not evaluate the keys, so it should be (case citizen (f ...) ...), not ('f ...)
2019-10-02T19:30:23Z LdBeth: krwq: APL has been famous/infamous for one liners，but the original guide of it advocates structured programming and to be more verbose when you can
2019-10-02T19:31:28Z shangul: _death, Thank you! I'll work on it and read more about it tomorrow.
2019-10-02T19:32:36Z krwq: LdBeth: I'll take a look one day since I've heard about this language couple of times already from different source
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2019-10-02T19:39:19Z aeth: CL vs. APL is a bit of an extreme in that in CL you want names-like-this and with APL you want α instead.
2019-10-02T19:39:51Z aeth: At a token level, it's possible that you could have the same level of conciseness/verbosity, but at a character level, CL will seem more verbose... but I personally find that more readable than trying to decode some cryptic symbol or letter
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2019-10-02T19:40:03Z buffergn0me: You can have both: https://github.com/phantomics/april
2019-10-02T19:40:09Z Ober: there are some apl on cl setups though
2019-10-02T19:40:18Z Ober: you need utf8 support though... rules out LW
2019-10-02T19:40:34Z aeth: consider (and this is made up since I don't know APL) e.g. (calculate-foobar 1 2) vs. f 1 2
2019-10-02T19:40:42Z buffergn0me: Ober: Lispworks does not support UTF-8 in source code?
2019-10-02T19:40:53Z Ober: yeah April is what I was thinking of
2019-10-02T19:40:54Z aeth: An APLer would prefer the latter, a Lisper will prefer the former since you know it's foobar, not just f
2019-10-02T19:41:18Z Ober: buffergn0me: in cli it doesn't. in the gui it seems to work
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2019-10-02T19:42:00Z aeth: Ober: I'd say that the vast majority of meaningful Quicklisp libraries probably won't work in LispWorks because no one tests in LispWorks and it only takes one dependency-of-a-dependency-of-a... to not support LW properly to break the whole thing in LW
2019-10-02T19:42:08Z aeth: So that wouldn't really be a concern in choosing a library imo
2019-10-02T19:42:12Z buffergn0me: Ober: I need to get personal edition and test with Parenscript. I started using ₁ ₂ etc subscripts in variable names
2019-10-02T19:42:48Z Ober: yeah if in the gui, it works. 7.3 will have utf8 in the cli, or so support says
2019-10-02T19:42:55Z Ober: works fine in acl
2019-10-02T19:43:49Z samlamamma: aeth: dependency-of-a-dependency-of-a... can just be called a transitive dependency :P
2019-10-02T19:43:55Z buffergn0me: Ober: I test in Allegro now that someone pointed out it was not working in modern mode.
2019-10-02T19:44:16Z aeth: My personal view of LW and ACL support in libraries is... if they want me to test in their implementations, they can pay me, or at least give me a free license to their commercial versions for library testing purposes only. Otherwise, I'll only support the FOSS implementations because I can actually test in them.
2019-10-02T19:44:28Z krwq: buffergn0me: this is awesome, will make it much easier to work with
2019-10-02T19:44:32Z buffergn0me: Ober: It seems that for Allegro you need to run tests in two images: CL and modern. Also CLISP has modern mode, I have never tried it
2019-10-02T19:45:06Z Ober: alisp and the other one yeah
2019-10-02T19:45:36Z aeth: Personal editions won't work for me. Afaik, they're 32-bit only... in 2019. I don't support 32-bit at all. My programs should in theory run in 32-bit, but with tons of extra consing (e.g. every single float) and with a bunch of 64-bit number arrays now as T arrays and 64-bit numbers now as fixnums.
2019-10-02T19:45:43Z buffergn0me: krwq: The nice thing is that it was an easy fix, and pointed out an underlying problem in the way I was handling case. Going to test everything in Allegro modern mode from now on.
2019-10-02T19:45:44Z aeth: Also much lower limits since the limits are usually based on positive fixnums.
2019-10-02T19:46:51Z buffergn0me: aeth: Roswell automatically installs Allegro trial edition for you
2019-10-02T19:46:52Z aeth: My code should work in a "modern mode" though because I do not (or at least should not) assume read table case. It's not that hard to not hardcode "FOO", you just do (symbol-name '#:foo) to get "FOO"
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2019-10-02T19:48:00Z buffergn0me: aeth: That's what I thought…
2019-10-02T19:48:08Z aeth: buffergn0me: it says right here that it's a 32-bit edition, as a warning that Ubuntu is now making it harder to install 32-bit applications. https://franz.com/downloads/clp/survey
2019-10-02T19:48:40Z aeth: buffergn0me: And as I said, I do not support 32-bit x86 implementations because there are too many little inconveniences, even though in theory it should still run, just slower and with more consing.
2019-10-02T19:48:42Z buffergn0me: aeth: Anyway, Roswell makes it easy to test. For example, here is a Roswell script that installs and tests on a bunch of implementations: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/uri-template/uri-template2/blob/master/run-tests.lisp
2019-10-02T19:49:09Z aeth: buffergn0me: running a test on a 32-bit implementation would be supporting a 32-bit implementation!
2019-10-02T19:49:10Z buffergn0me: aeth: And that's one reason I switched from Ubuntu to Debian
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2019-10-02T19:50:38Z buffergn0me: aeth: I disagree with not supporting 32-bit. Really defeats the purpose of Common Lisp as a portable backward-compatible language. I still have tons of 32-bit x86 hardware, and will probably at some point need to do embedded work on a 32-bit system.
2019-10-02T19:50:41Z aeth: My view is that there is no reason to use 32-bit x86 in 2019, and it's becoming increasingly hard to do so, so I'm not going to encourage people by testing on 32-bit implementations, making maintaining a library then transitively having to support all that increasingly difficult 32-bit mess.
2019-10-02T19:51:00Z aeth: Well, at least for the domain I use CL for. Obviously, there's embedded.
2019-10-02T19:51:55Z aeth: buffergn0me: The problem is that I make assumptions, such as that single-float is nonconsing (no workarounds necessary) and double-float is normally consing (so I need to do tricks to let an implementation not cons them, like use arrays/structs that hold double-floats)
2019-10-02T19:52:17Z aeth: And the latter is sufficiently difficult that I'm simply not going to write single-float code in that much harder style
2019-10-02T19:52:44Z aeth: With the sort of embedded that's still using 32-bit, you probably won't have a FPU at all, though
2019-10-02T19:52:47Z buffergn0me: aeth: But does you code break, or just work slowly on 32-bit?
2019-10-02T19:53:36Z aeth: buffergn0me: Almost certainly the latter. Arrays of (unsigned-byte 64) and (signed-byte 64) should be T, and tricks to make those integer types nonconsing won't work because they'll be bignums, and single-float will cons, etc.
2019-10-02T19:53:47Z aeth: buffergn0me: But to even test it on a 32-bit implementation is to support a 32-bit implementation
2019-10-02T19:54:21Z aeth: buffergn0me: Although it's possible that there's a sufficiently large array somewhere that will make it not work, anyway
2019-10-02T19:56:58Z aeth: The ones that (indirectly) use CFFI might have broken assumptions, though. In transative dependencies.
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2019-10-02T19:59:02Z aeth: I tested my game engine in SBCL, CCL, and ECL. It runs in all three (unless I introduced a recent bug), where CCL needs the most special cases because it has weird (but allowable) rules with constants that require me to eval-when the constants. Also some weird rules with numerical tower conversion iirc.
2019-10-02T19:59:36Z aeth: It runs very slowly in ECL, and the workaround that makes it run faster for some reason breaks cl-sdl2 now, so I don't run it in ECL very often at the moment, at least until I replace cl-sdl2.
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2019-10-02T20:00:35Z aeth: Every other implementation is broken through s ome dependency already. So the issue is sort of not my problem.
2019-10-02T20:00:52Z aeth: s/s ome/some/
2019-10-02T20:01:36Z vms14: aeth: what kind of game?
2019-10-02T20:01:44Z vms14: and what about your perl/lisp project?
2019-10-02T20:03:24Z vms14: also I'm curious about hash tables performance vs alists/plists in common lisp
2019-10-02T20:03:49Z vms14: I saw in elisp plists/alists have better performance until 20 items
2019-10-02T20:03:59Z Ober: or thread safe hash-tables
2019-10-02T20:04:01Z aeth: vms14: I don't have a perl/lisp project, I just said that it should be theoretically possible to implement Perl on top of a language framework and cl-ppcre, depending on how pc the ppcre are. I do have a work-in-progress Scheme that could eventually be generalized into a language-creating framework
2019-10-02T20:04:03Z vms14: I know I shouldn't worry about performance
2019-10-02T20:04:13Z vms14: but I'm just curious
2019-10-02T20:04:19Z vms14: I really love plists
2019-10-02T20:04:24Z buffergn0me: aeth: And that's why I took a detour to work on test automation last month. Not a lot of people look at cl-test-grid, and it would be nice to make it easy for anyone to quickly test their code and its dependencies on their local machine on multiple implementations
2019-10-02T20:04:32Z vms14: symbol plists*
2019-10-02T20:04:51Z vms14: and I saw a post about "perfect" hash tables
2019-10-02T20:05:14Z aeth: vms14: I don't really do hash tables vs. plists. That's quite a micro-optimization. If I'm using a plist, it's probably being parsed sequentially over every item, anyway, so random access doesn't really matter. And if I'm using a hash-table that's because that's what I semantically want
2019-10-02T20:05:50Z vms14: yeah I know we should use the most appropiate data for our uses
2019-10-02T20:05:55Z vms14: and not worry about performance
2019-10-02T20:06:02Z vms14: until you have troubles
2019-10-02T20:06:27Z aeth: buffergn0me: this is graphics (via FFI) stuff, they're not easily tested at all
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2019-10-02T20:07:16Z aeth: I mostly test the engine by loading up example programs and checking the framerate, since those program should execute every major code path. And if they're rendered incorrectly it's very obvious.
2019-10-02T20:07:35Z aeth: Obviously, some portions are unit testable, but that's usually portions where I can not-invented-here the whole stack instead of relying on FFI
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2019-10-02T20:09:22Z buffergn0me: aeth: Good point. But a lot of libraries are automatically testable, they just are not being tested regularly across some implementations.
2019-10-02T20:10:29Z aeth: buffergn0me: For me, if I wanted to test on more than just SBCL, I would just do that through running gitlab CI on push. I just need a Docker image that contains more than just SBCL, and a new entry-point .lisp file that loads the tests through ASDF.
2019-10-02T20:11:57Z aeth: At the moment I just do: sbcl --non-interactive --load ~/quicklisp/local-projects/zombie-raptor/tests/test-script.lisp
2019-10-02T20:12:35Z aeth: And I don't even need a separate file since I already #+sbcl in that file. I just need a separate line in my .gitlab-ci.yaml, assuming I'm using a Docker image that also comes with that CL implementation
2019-10-02T20:14:05Z buffergn0me: vms14: Here is one thing I want to try: adjustable vectors instead of plists. That should give a nice speedup for a lot of applications. Also have it self-organize (see 6.1 of Knuth vol. 3)
2019-10-02T20:14:09Z aeth: Oh, and that file would be very short (a handful of lines) if fiveam actually did what I wanted, so really, the more portable solution would be to replace/fork fiveam or make a mini-library with the wrapped part of fiveam that does what I want.
2019-10-02T20:15:06Z buffergn0me: aeth: Ok, but then how do you debug test failures? You still need the implementation on your local machine.
2019-10-02T20:15:46Z aeth: buffergn0me: I use roswell for implementations that my distro does not ship with, or to get newer versions of implementations that my distro does ship with. (I also compile SBCL from source sometimes for an even newer version.)
2019-10-02T20:16:27Z aeth: buffergn0me: I actually kind of hate roswell because it's buggy and full of C. roswell assumes that it's being used to bootstrap CL and the host has no CL at all. A better tool would be to assume there's a host CL, just not literally every CL ever.
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2019-10-02T20:17:14Z buffergn0me: aeth: Yes, and Roswell is a lot easier to use than setting up Muppet Jenkins Gitmash Bokbok whatever is the latest automated testing monstrosity that really should be a simple git hook
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2019-10-02T20:18:02Z aeth: buffergn0me: Any replacement tool should probably use docker and replace daewok/lisp-devel so it uses the exact same implementations developer-side and CI-side.
2019-10-02T20:18:21Z aeth: buffergn0me: I use Gitlab CI. Gitlab comes with CI so I never had to worry about whatever's trendy. It is a weird YAML file, but once it's written, it's written.
2019-10-02T20:19:01Z buffergn0me: aeth: Ok, how do I run Docker on OpenBSD? Docker is a "solution" that makes the problem worse.
2019-10-02T20:19:55Z vms14: "once it's written, it's written" xD
2019-10-02T20:20:08Z vms14: I liked it
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2019-10-02T20:21:01Z buffergn0me: aeth: Roswell does the right thing with C. It is the lowest-common denominator and most portable approach that bootstraps. Definitely better than trying to use shell scripts like cl-launch and CIM tried to do
2019-10-02T20:21:05Z aeth: buffergn0me: I didn't say it has to use Docker exclusively, but it has to use it in its path if you want to test with the same implementations client and server side, at least potentially.
2019-10-02T20:21:50Z aeth: buffergn0me: Roswell absolutely does the wrong thing with using C. It is the right thing if you are bootstrapping on a system that does not have CL and you're using it as your only CL. Portacle does this better, if you need to, but on Linux it's just in your distros already if you have a decent distro.
2019-10-02T20:22:08Z Ober: roswell seems much slower for simple scripts
2019-10-02T20:22:26Z aeth: buffergn0me: The secondary task that Roswell tries to solve is if you already have several CL implementations, but not literally every CL implemntation, and you want to run tests. Because Roswell's primary goal is bootstrapping from C, it makes its secondary (testing) goal much harder and buggier
2019-10-02T20:23:08Z aeth: buffergn0me: For instance, it uses whichever most recent CL implementation was used as the implementation that does the driving of the CL scripts iirc, so it's a non-deterministic state machine, unless you always specify the implementation before doing commands. Iirc.
2019-10-02T20:23:41Z aeth: Plus, it at least for me has a bunch of random crashing bugs, typical of C applications, which you simply wouldn't get with a pure-CL-driven testing system.
2019-10-02T20:25:34Z aeth: Roswell also doesn't provide binaries for everything (e.g. Clasp) and last time I tried to compile Clasp, the weird environment Roswell sets up was sufficient for that compilation to fail, cryptically, after like 10 minutes.
2019-10-02T20:26:01Z aeth: You're definitely not going to want to compile a huge C++ application in your test framework which is initialized to a fresh environment every run!
2019-10-02T20:26:56Z buffergn0me: aeth: Neither Clasp nor MKCL ever finished building for me when I tried installing them. I do not want to support MKCL anyway.
2019-10-02T20:27:05Z aeth: fNow, maybe there's a better version of roswell and my complaints are out of date, but I rarely recompile it, because C is hard to work with. If it was pure CL, it'd just be in Quicklisp, and easy to work with.
2019-10-02T20:27:09Z aeth: s/fNow/Now/
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2019-10-02T20:28:08Z buffergn0me: aeth: That is true. Which is why I am not advocating replacing hosted service CI with Roswell. Two complementary uses. I want a simple way to test on multiple implementations on my machine. Setting up GitLab CI on my development machine is not easy!
2019-10-02T20:28:28Z aeth: What I mean about Roswell... Pretty much every C or C++ application I compile has its own build process and I'm not clever enough to write a shell script to do the correct invocations so I don't have to think about it every time I compile.
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2019-10-02T20:29:22Z buffergn0me: aeth: Also, having different implementation versions on hosted test harness and your development machine is a feature, not a bug, when you are concered with testing for portability, like I am.
2019-10-02T20:29:36Z aeth: buffergn0me: A better-for-testing Roswell, written purely for testing without any C (so no secondary goal of bootstrapping), could just come preinstalled on a Docker image with all of the implementations pre-downloaded, but be run natively everywher else. Problem solved for CI and not-CI.
2019-10-02T20:30:02Z aeth: s/everywher/everywhere/
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2019-10-02T20:31:09Z aeth: buffergn0me: Having different versions is just a coincidence that will eventually change over time, unless intentional and explicit. Rigorous testing would just... install different versions of e.g. SBCL if you want to test for different versions of e.g. SBCL. I'm not even sure if Roswell supports this or just pulls the latest.
2019-10-02T20:31:52Z aeth: (SBCL releases too often so you'd probably just want a handful of them unless you find a bug and want to pinpoint exactly which version introduced (or fixed!) the bug)
2019-10-02T20:32:15Z buffergn0me: aeth: Docker does not help you when you need to actually debug the test failures. It's another layer of garbage when what you want is to run the tests on the CL implementations you have installed.
2019-10-02T20:32:41Z buffergn0me: aeth: Also, it is not a solution when you want to run tests when working on a patch for an implementation.
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2019-10-02T20:33:29Z aeth: buffergn0me: I'm not quite sure you got the modification of my proposal. The test-helping program, cl-better-collection-of-every-Lisp-binary, can run outside of Docker and wouldn't use Docker, there would just be a Docker image of it with some of the binaries pre-downloaded, for use in CI
2019-10-02T20:33:46Z aeth: So a Docker image would depend on it, instead of it (potentially optionally) depending on Docker
2019-10-02T20:34:10Z buffergn0me: aeth: Ah, ok. That makes more sense.
2019-10-02T20:34:33Z aeth: It would use whatever ancient version of SBCL comes with Docker's Debian as its host CL to bootstrap it on Docker, and it would rely on an already-present CL (distro or manual or Portacle or whatever) everywhere else
2019-10-02T20:35:02Z aeth: So it could be pure CL and not have to deal with the C-related bugs Roswell has, or the C build system Roswell has.
2019-10-02T20:36:18Z aeth: But then you have identical CL implementations (not quite identical if you're on a different platform, like Windows) locally and on the cloud CI system, and if you want to test for different versions, just specify that (probably locally, since it would use too many CI minutes)
2019-10-02T20:38:00Z aeth: Maybe on Windows (and macOS? or is a CL in homebrew a better option?) use portacle, just to make it very clear that its sole goal is testing, not bootstrapping a CL where there wasn't a CL before
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2019-10-02T20:39:36Z aeth: heh, it looks like the first step of portacle is to install a separate SBCL binary, so I guess that's not needed, then.
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2019-10-02T20:55:53Z Josh_2: Are there any libraries that will let me import a video file, modify it and then export back out into a new file?
2019-10-02T20:56:20Z Josh_2: There are decoders for mp4, but I don't think they support outputting back to file
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2019-10-02T21:05:05Z vms14: Josh_2: I only can find cl-video
2019-10-02T21:05:33Z vms14: and a youtube library
2019-10-02T21:05:40Z vms14: http://quickdocs.org/cl-video/api
2019-10-02T21:06:55Z vms14: the youtube library just uses youtube-dl
2019-10-02T21:08:28Z Josh_2: Yes, I saw cl-video but I don't think it supports writing back out to a file
2019-10-02T21:10:38Z vms14: idk, I'm not able to find more libraries for video, maybe there are more
2019-10-02T21:10:50Z Josh_2: if I can figure out how this man decodes the videos perhaps I can write the encoder
2019-10-02T21:11:22Z Josh_2: I want to write a video steganography library in CL for my honours project, but if there is no library that will let me read and write video files it makes it a bit difficult xD
2019-10-02T21:11:35Z Josh_2: I don't really want to ffi to a c library
2019-10-02T21:12:28Z vms14: you should dig on the source code of cl-video
2019-10-02T21:12:34Z vms14: maybe it's useful
2019-10-02T21:12:46Z vms14: and/or a pain
2019-10-02T21:12:46Z vms14: xD
2019-10-02T21:13:20Z Josh_2: The whole project isn't a lot of code
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2019-10-02T21:29:55Z Josh_2: Avi seems like a pretty simple video format so I think I will be okay :)
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2019-10-02T22:15:42Z DrDuck: Is there a book to learn ACL2 from?
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2019-10-02T22:19:58Z buffergn0me: DrDuck: A Computational Logic Handbook, Robert Boyer and J Strother Moore, Academic Press 1988
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2019-10-02T22:23:16Z DrDuck: Thanks!
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2019-10-02T22:31:13Z no-defun-allowed: Josh_2: if you can assume the user has ffmpeg, you can run ffmpeg with video->image sequence settings and use opticl or some other code to slurp up the frames.
2019-10-02T22:31:32Z aeth: oh wow I finally have a use for this obscure thing: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm
2019-10-02T22:32:10Z aeth: You can do (format "~/package:foo/" 42) and call a function from within format
2019-10-02T22:32:41Z no-defun-allowed: Something like https://gitlab.com/Theemacsshibe/cl-vep/blob/master/outside-world/ffmpeg.lisp
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2019-10-02T22:44:49Z aeth: Does a global function named by a gensym get garbage collected?
2019-10-02T22:48:16Z pjb: aeth: if not referencerd, yes, like any other.
2019-10-02T22:48:21Z no-defun-allowed: In SBCL, no, after a full GC I get "WARNING: redefining #:G417 in DEFUN" on my second definition
2019-10-02T22:49:10Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, right, it could be in the // variables and those places.
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2019-10-02T22:50:49Z no-defun-allowed: Now sb-ext:gc is messing with me. I'm not sure now.
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2019-10-02T22:56:00Z aeth: Well, I can't seem to get format's function call to work with a gensymmed function name. But I don't actually need to gensym the function name, I guess, if I make it sufficiently general
2019-10-02T22:56:13Z aeth: (I tried internal and external to the function generated by macro)
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2019-10-02T22:59:32Z alandipert: aeth out of curiousity, what do you mean by a global function named by a gensym? like you're taking an uninterned symbol from gensym and interning it in a package yourself?
2019-10-02T23:00:01Z Josh_2: no-defun-allowed: that's a good idea
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2019-10-02T23:01:25Z aeth: alandipert: I was trying to create an unnamed function to use in format's ~/foo/ by generating the format string like (format nil "~~/~A::~A" (symbol-name package) gensym) but that wasn't working no matter where I placed it.
2019-10-02T23:02:34Z aeth: I just think that, at least on SBCL, the function called by format cannot be created at the same time as the function with the format string that calls it. And disassembling the result with a named function, it looks like SBCL inlined it! This is literally the first time I've seen SBCL inline when not asked to! (I mean, notinline probably overrides that, but I was just fascinated to see this at all)
2019-10-02T23:02:36Z alandipert: i think i see why, the symbol is never interned in that example afaict
2019-10-02T23:02:49Z aeth: oh you're right
2019-10-02T23:02:52Z aeth: that too
2019-10-02T23:03:06Z aeth: I would need to intern it in a package because the ~/foo/ syntax requires a package
2019-10-02T23:03:12Z aeth: it just tries cl-user if no package is given
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2019-10-02T23:04:38Z aeth: no matter what, though, I was overthinking it and it's overkill to do anything but write a named function that reorders the arguments in a way that format expects, probably with the function signature (stream item &rest rest) ignoring rest
2019-10-02T23:16:28Z vms14: aeth: I don't really understand what the limits you have, but won't a macro or #.() help you?
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2019-10-02T23:31:54Z aeth: vms14: the specific problem was that the syntax of this obscure FORMAT feature required a package and the gensym was not interned... but the more general issue was that my approach was incorrect in the first place
2019-10-02T23:32:26Z aeth: although, hmm, maybe #: would work
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2019-10-03T03:11:38Z LdBeth: Good evening
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2019-10-03T03:44:39Z ck_: Good morning
2019-10-03T03:55:44Z no-defun-allowed: Hello LdBeth and ck_.
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2019-10-03T04:09:09Z Lycurgus wonders if vms14's nick referred to the software product
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2019-10-03T04:21:35Z ebrasca: Good morning
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2019-10-03T04:46:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-03T05:51:26Z no-defun-allowed: Should I use (class-name (class-of <instance>)) or (type-of <instance>) to get the name of the class that <instance> is an instance of?
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2019-10-03T05:55:57Z LdBeth: there's no reason to avoid use type-of
2019-10-03T05:56:28Z LdBeth: since in CL the correspondence between class and type is guaranteed
2019-10-03T05:57:20Z LdBeth: unless you want to port you code to other dialects that don't have suchs a correspondence
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2019-10-03T06:02:08Z no-defun-allowed: Should be good then.
2019-10-03T06:02:09Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks LdBeth
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2019-10-03T09:32:01Z Posterdati: hi
2019-10-03T09:33:43Z Posterdati: is anyone trying to use sbcl and cl-plplot, I've got a segfaults during display
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2019-10-03T09:50:37Z beach: Posterdati: If your plotting needs are not too complex, you can try using McCLIM instead.  From reading the manual for cl-plplot, I understand it is an FFI-based library, so you are vulnerable to segmentation faults and other problems that are hard to debug.
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2019-10-03T09:51:41Z Posterdati: beach: mmmh, ok, I have to plot points on x-y
2019-10-03T09:52:05Z beach: (clim:draw-point* x y) then
2019-10-03T09:52:30Z jackdaniel: hm, that reminds me of polyclot which I still need to finish
2019-10-03T09:52:32Z beach: Er, stick a medium in there somwhere.
2019-10-03T09:52:32Z Posterdati: CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 467(tid 0x7f8c3a80f700):
2019-10-03T09:52:32Z Posterdati: Memory fault at 0x18 (pc=0x7f8c40025a16, fp=0x7f8c34019150, sp=0x7f8c3a80dca0) tid 0x7f8c3a80f700
2019-10-03T09:52:32Z Posterdati: The integrity of this image is possibly compromised.
2019-10-03T09:52:32Z Posterdati: Continuing with fingers crossed.
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2019-10-03T09:52:59Z Posterdati: this is the error using (plplot-examples:example0 "xwin")
2019-10-03T09:53:42Z beach: Posterdati: Good luck.
2019-10-03T09:54:08Z Posterdati: beach: yeah, I'd like to use ecl, but gsll does not compile on it :(
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2019-10-03T09:55:13Z Posterdati: beach: the same old problem with the groveller and the compiler
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2019-10-03T09:56:40Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know if what implementation you use is relevant.
2019-10-03T09:56:54Z no-defun-allowed: From memory, McCLIM uses no C bindings so you shouldn't have groveller problems.
2019-10-03T09:57:23Z Posterdati: no-defun-allowed: I was talking about ecl + gsll
2019-10-03T09:58:44Z beach: And McCLIM is actively maintained, whereas the last comment in the README for cl-plplot was from 4 years ago, suggesting that there was a need to catch up with the latest version if plplot.
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2019-10-03T10:01:08Z jackdaniel: last commit: 41 minutes ago
2019-10-03T10:05:29Z beach: ... and a very reactive bunch of people working on it.
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2019-10-03T10:13:01Z Posterdati: ok, thanks
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2019-10-03T10:53:12Z cc0: hi, i would like to create an REPL-like bot that can execute simple LISP one-liners and return the result. the interesting part is that the bot has indirect access to a lot of third-part functions (say, 1000) not known in advance.
2019-10-03T10:53:16Z cc0: i would like to find a library that schematically has this kind of API: `execute(callback, line)`, that parses and executes the LISP code line, calling on my `callback` (signature:  `callback(function_name, arg0, arg1, ...)`, returns a value) when it needs to execute a function it doesnt know about
2019-10-03T10:53:20Z cc0: this way i can execute something like `(foo (bar 0 1) "baz")`  and expect to be called with `callback("bar", 0, 1)` and `callback("foo", result_of_bar, "baz")`
2019-10-03T10:53:23Z cc0: does that make sense? is there any library that could help me do something like this?
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2019-10-03T10:57:56Z pjb: this is a 1-liner, why do you want a library for 1-liners?
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2019-10-03T10:59:22Z antoszka: cc0: there's a somewhat aged CL bot here: https://bitbucket.org/dodek/klacz
2019-10-03T10:59:37Z antoszka: cc0: you might use it or grab some ideas from it (wrt sandboxing etc)
2019-10-03T11:02:19Z cc0: pjb, ah, the thing is that my bot and my functions arent written in lisp, and that i wish to use lisp only as a parser , that could also let the user define its own functions and variables etc
2019-10-03T11:04:34Z cc0: that´s why i want a library: i need a c/c++ library to use from c/c++ code, not a lisp library, and that library should be able to parse and execute lisp code, ¨asking me¨ when it wants to execute a function it doesnt know about
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2019-10-03T11:21:13Z Shinmera: This channel is for the Common Lisp language.
2019-10-03T11:22:07Z prite: cc0: What do you think of ECL?
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2019-10-03T11:33:09Z pjb: cc0: I see, but then it's a very specific system. Why do you expect specific features to be implemented already in libraries? Libraries are for generic features.
2019-10-03T11:35:06Z Posterdati: cc0: why call lisp function from a non lisp library?
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2019-10-03T11:36:43Z Posterdati: cc0: you may want to have a lisp interpreter that is able to operate on a lisp library of functions or packages
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2019-10-03T12:59:08Z dlowe: cc0: try integrating picolisp into your bot
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2019-10-03T13:53:48Z no-defun-allowed: cc0: clasp?
2019-10-03T13:54:14Z Shinmera: No.
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2019-10-03T13:55:07Z no-defun-allowed: Well, if you had to pick some CL implementation to call from -- hmm, good point, maybe ECL then.
2019-10-03T13:55:08Z jackdaniel: picoclasp!
2019-10-03T13:55:18Z no-defun-allowed: But in general, just write the bot in Lisp and avoid all this.
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2019-10-03T14:10:31Z loke: WHen Quickloading a package, there is a series of periods being displayed. Some packages display a lot, others not so many. What do they actually mean? I thought at first it one one period per function definition, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
2019-10-03T14:10:53Z jackdaniel: loke: one per macroexpansion
2019-10-03T14:10:59Z loke: Oh
2019-10-03T14:11:19Z jackdaniel: I'm not thrilled to know such details but there you have it,)
2019-10-03T14:11:31Z loke: How is Quicklisp able to inject a period printing during macroexpansion? Is there a facility to add hooks to macroexpand?
2019-10-03T14:11:56Z loke: Hmm... why does macroexpand-hook sound familiar...
2019-10-03T14:11:58Z loke: Checking CLHS
2019-10-03T14:12:04Z pjb: jackdaniel: is it not toplevel macrexpansions?
2019-10-03T14:12:17Z Bike: clhs *macroexpand-hook*
2019-10-03T14:12:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_mexp_h.htm
2019-10-03T14:12:31Z Bike: quicklisp just binds it.
2019-10-03T14:12:59Z Bike: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/blob/cadecc5e4b1923e707ce1bc1bbbafa0e334ae742/quicklisp/setup.lisp#L102-L154
2019-10-03T14:13:28Z Bike: and also notes defpackages
2019-10-03T14:13:49Z loke: Right, clever. :-)
2019-10-03T14:14:11Z loke: Makes me wonder though, what is the use for macroexpand-hook? I mean, what was its original urpose?
2019-10-03T14:16:12Z Bike: putting in funny semantics, maybe.
2019-10-03T14:16:26Z Bike: there used to be an *evalhook* too, but that kind of screws up very basic semantic concepts
2019-10-03T14:18:32Z Bike: i think noting macroexpansions like quicklisp does is perfectly reasonable. it's not a really progress bar, of course, but it's a nice indicator that something is occurring
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2019-10-03T14:20:22Z MichaelRaskin: I seriously considered using *macroexpand-hook* for tracing and debugging macros, and it might be related to its original purpose…
2019-10-03T14:22:02Z Bike: oh yeah that too. it gets weird sometimes. like sbcl's "error during macroexpansion, use break on signals to intercept" or whatever
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2019-10-03T14:25:07Z selwyn: in cl we have the notions of read time and compile time
2019-10-03T14:25:50Z selwyn: is it meaningful or correct to talk about a distinct macroexpansion time?
2019-10-03T14:27:12Z Bike: not really.
2019-10-03T14:27:21Z Bike: things can be macroexpanded more than once and in different ways and stuff.
2019-10-03T14:27:39Z Bike: i mean, if you execute something "at compile time" with eval-when, there will be macroexpansions, but also a normal compilation will involve macroexpansions
2019-10-03T14:27:57Z MichaelRaskin: compilation might be intertwined with macroexpansion
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2019-10-03T14:31:35Z Josh_2: Whats the difference between parametric polymorphism and ad-hoc polymorphism like in CLOS? When applied to CL?
2019-10-03T14:34:15Z Josh_2: I was looking at LIL out of curiosity. Am I right in thinking it enables you to have strong typing while keeping generic dispatch?
2019-10-03T14:34:37Z Josh_2: so you don't have to write multiple similar methods for different types?
2019-10-03T14:35:01Z Bike: in polymorphic polymorphism the function body is basically always the same, the only thing different is the typing.
2019-10-03T14:35:10Z Bike: in ad hoc polymorphism you have, well, like CLOS, a bunch of arbitrary methods
2019-10-03T14:35:18Z Xach: loke: hee hee
2019-10-03T14:35:19Z Bike: parametric polymorphism* not polymorphic
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2019-10-03T14:37:31Z Bike: in a language like haskell, the append function (with two arguments) has a type like "forall a. (List a) -> (List a) -> (List a)", meaning it takes two lists and returns another list, and it's parametrized over the type of the lists' elements.
2019-10-03T14:37:54Z Bike: in CL we just kind of ignore the element type
2019-10-03T14:38:13Z Josh_2: so the function 'forall ..' would have different methods for different types of 'a'?
2019-10-03T14:38:31Z Josh_2: while clos would have different methods for different classes of a?
2019-10-03T14:38:44Z Bike: forall isn't a function, it's part of the type.
2019-10-03T14:38:48Z Josh_2: o
2019-10-03T14:38:55Z mfiano: No that's called monomorphization, which is copying different implementations either by the user or the compiler.
2019-10-03T14:38:55Z Josh_2: sorry, I've never used haskell
2019-10-03T14:39:17Z Bike: it's just a logic quantifier.
2019-10-03T14:39:48Z Bike: it wouldn't really have different methods. the actual logic of the append function doesn't depend on the element type.
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2019-10-03T14:40:28Z Bike: it's possible that at runtime there'd be a bunch of different instantiated functions, one for each element type it's used with, but that's below the level of language semantics
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2019-10-03T14:42:38Z Josh_2: Well i'm even more confused now xD
2019-10-03T14:43:29Z Bike: We could have a function (defun dumb (array) (+ (aref array 0) (aref array 1))) that just adds the first two elements of an array.
2019-10-03T14:43:45Z Bike: In CL this is fine in itself, because aref works on any kind of array
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2019-10-03T14:44:16Z Josh_2: Yes
2019-10-03T14:44:26Z Bike: But we could also have (defun dumb (array) (declare (type (simple-array (unsigned-byte 32) (*)) array)) (+ (aref array 0) (aref array 1))) that would only work on arrays with an ub32 element type.
2019-10-03T14:44:51Z Bike: and you can write a similar function for any element type, obviously.
2019-10-03T14:45:09Z Bike: but the actual code, the (+ (aref array 0) (aref array 1)), isn't altered.
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2019-10-03T14:46:05Z Bike: you can imagine having some kind of (defun dumb (array) (declare (type (simple-array element-type (*)) array)) (+ (aref array 0) (aref array 1))) that's parametrized on what the element-type is.
2019-10-03T14:46:42Z Bike: then when the compiler saw a (dumb array) call, it would figure out what to do based on the known element type.
2019-10-03T14:46:56Z Bike: but we don't necessarily have that information at compile time in lisp, so we don't have any mechanism like this.
2019-10-03T14:47:29Z mfiano: You could use specialization-store, or a couple other similar approaches, to implement something like it though.
2019-10-03T14:47:53Z Josh_2: Bike: but there is LIL which does this right?
2019-10-03T14:47:59Z Josh_2: In a roundabout way with 'interfaces'
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2019-10-03T14:48:09Z Bike: I don't know about LIL.
2019-10-03T14:48:19Z Bike: I think you pas the "interface" as a runtime argument though.
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2019-10-03T14:52:01Z Josh_2: alrighty
2019-10-03T14:52:05Z Josh_2: Thanks for the help Bike :)
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2019-10-03T14:55:06Z Bike: it's kind of hard to explain in lisp terms, sorry
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2019-10-03T14:56:16Z Josh_2: Well CL is dynamically typed and parametric polymorphism is to maintain static typing
2019-10-03T14:57:01Z Bike: yeah something like that.
2019-10-03T14:57:23Z selwyn: this most recent example of Bike's is very close to c++ generics, right? which has its own drawbacks in any case
2019-10-03T14:58:27Z Josh_2: LIL is saying that C++ templates are parametric poly
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2019-10-03T14:59:20Z selwyn: ah right.
2019-10-03T15:00:38Z Bike: you can do some fancier things with C++ templates.
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2019-10-03T18:53:38Z jmercouris: hey, does anyone know who proteus777 on Reddit is? they post on /r/lisp sometimes, are they ever on IRC?
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2019-10-03T19:04:21Z ebrasca: Shinmera: Hi , I have found your stream.
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2019-10-03T19:06:07Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Not to my knowledge, why?
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2019-10-03T19:08:17Z jmercouris: Shinmera: they said that they were on IRC, and observed that I am a "noob", I'm wondering what gave them that impression: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/d91u7o/10_days_left_for_the_next_browser_crowdfunding/f1sg32y?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
2019-10-03T19:08:40Z Shinmera: I wouldn't worry too much. He seems a generally toxic individual.
2019-10-03T19:09:08Z jmercouris: Yeah, that's the feeling I get too, I just wanted to know what their qualifications were
2019-10-03T19:09:53Z jmercouris: Also wondering what the security issues that they discovered are, within 5 minutes of looking at the source, I'd like to fix them
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2019-10-03T19:12:11Z saturn2: using webkit probably
2019-10-03T19:12:41Z jmercouris: saturn2: it is WebKit OR WebEngine
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2019-10-03T19:17:30Z saturn2: what's the difference?
2019-10-03T19:18:50Z jmercouris: From a user perspective? The difference is almost NIL, I'm not sure why people are so hung up about WebEngine
2019-10-03T19:19:21Z jmercouris: From a development perspective, WebEngine is developed by the hegemony at Google, and WebKit is an open source, open collaboration project
2019-10-03T19:20:19Z jmercouris: if only we could go back to the simpler days of KHTML, and get rid of JS, the world would be a brighter place
2019-10-03T19:20:27Z jmercouris: anyways, this is a bit off-topic, so I won't elaborate any further
2019-10-03T19:20:51Z saturn2: i see
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2019-10-04T02:01:58Z aeth: So I'm printing HTML but the problem probably almost comes out when printing XML or even just {...}s in curly bracket languages... heck, even s-expressions themselves.
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2019-10-04T02:02:59Z aeth: The problem basically is, if I want something to be dynamic, I need to be able to generate something like a closure containing format with the format string "<foo>~A</foo>" since not all of the input will be available at compile time.
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2019-10-04T02:03:58Z aeth: Now, I can think of two options. One is to use ~/package::foo/ which will call a write-to-stream function from within the format string.
2019-10-04T02:05:00Z aeth: The other would be to put it in one big string, but with splits, so e.g. a bunch of (write-string string stream :start start :end end) with the custom WRITE-FOO called in between. This way I don't have to escape ~s so it's more robust, but less elegant.
2019-10-04T02:06:04Z aeth: These seem like the only way to split up a precalculated writable string, at least that I could think of.
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2019-10-04T02:28:09Z buffergn0me: Does anyone know if there is a way to handle a condition without doing a control transfer or using the continue restart?
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2019-10-04T02:29:26Z buffergn0me: I am trying to coalesce 1 or more conditions of a known class that an arbitrary piece of code signals into a single condition.
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2019-10-04T02:32:49Z Bike: well, "handling" a condition means a control transfer by definition.
2019-10-04T02:32:54Z Bike: what do you want to happen exactly?
2019-10-04T02:33:08Z Bike: (CONTINUE is a control transfer also, jsyk)
2019-10-04T02:35:28Z buffergn0me: Bike: I would like to stop any outer HANDLER-BIND condition handlers from seeing a condition, without affecting control flow.
2019-10-04T02:35:49Z buffergn0me: Bike: Basically in this situation conditions are being used as a non-local communications mechanism.
2019-10-04T02:36:08Z Bike: how is that different from continue?
2019-10-04T02:36:14Z Bike: or do you want it to go into the debugger immediately?
2019-10-04T02:36:20Z Bike: i guess not, if it's for communications
2019-10-04T02:37:01Z buffergn0me: Bike: It is exactly like CONTINUE, I am just wondering if there is a way I can get away without having to write CONTINUE restarts for all the code that signals the conditions
2019-10-04T02:38:13Z aeth: if there isn't you can write a macro (or even a reader macro)
2019-10-04T02:38:14Z Bike: you can just wrap it up in a function. (defun communicate (condition) (with-simple-restart (continue "") (signal condition))) or something
2019-10-04T02:38:30Z aeth: oh, or a function
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2019-10-04T02:39:24Z buffergn0me: Option B for this is to do communications by binding special variable(s) that act as accumulators. Which I am leaning towards.
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2019-10-04T04:18:54Z nwoob: Is CL good for learning Object oriented programming
2019-10-04T04:20:08Z xristos: Smalltalk is better
2019-10-04T04:20:25Z xristos: CL will teach you that OO isn't the end-all be-all
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2019-10-04T04:28:52Z aeth: nwoob: it depends on what you mean by "object oriented programming" because there are many different definitions. Always with objects, almost always with classes, almost always with methods... but lots of variation past that.
2019-10-04T04:29:35Z aeth: C++ and JavaScript OOPs are pretty far from CL OOP (and from each other)
2019-10-04T04:30:03Z nwoob: But javascript isn't oop right? It's object based
2019-10-04T04:30:25Z xristos: Smalltalk is worth playing with even if you never use it again in the future
2019-10-04T04:30:31Z aeth: nwoob: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype-based_programming
2019-10-04T04:30:36Z xristos: it'll teach you what Alan Kay meant by OO
2019-10-04T04:30:43Z nwoob: Ok
2019-10-04T04:30:45Z xristos: mainly late binding, messaging and encapsulation
2019-10-04T04:31:12Z xristos: so when you get exposed to the C++ or Python or ... modern OO, you'll understand what a travesty it has become
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2019-10-04T04:33:14Z aeth: nwoob: Most contemporary OOP are very noun-oriented (especially Java), but CLOS is very verb-oriented because the methods don't live with objects, look like ordinary function calls, and use multiple dispatch
2019-10-04T04:33:41Z aeth: that third feature simplifies a lot of OOP that's awkward in, say, C++
2019-10-04T04:34:01Z nwoob: What is noun oriented and verb oriented means
2019-10-04T04:34:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-04T04:35:35Z beach: nwoob: Common Lisp is excellent for learning about object-oriented programming, but not if you later want the restricted kind that is proposed by other languages.
2019-10-04T04:36:28Z saturn2: why do you want to learn object oriented programming?
2019-10-04T04:36:46Z beach: xristos: Common Lisp is completely object oriented.  Every object is an instance of a class.
2019-10-04T04:37:54Z xristos: beach: sure
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2019-10-04T04:39:31Z beach: xristos: Furthermore, Common Lisp allows for multiple dispatch, and generic-function invocation is more symmetric than in most other object-oriented languages, which of course reflects the fact that it allows for multiple dispatch.
2019-10-04T04:40:52Z xristos: beach: you're preaching to the choir
2019-10-04T04:41:25Z beach: Maybe so.  I haven't had my coffee yet.
2019-10-04T04:43:08Z xristos: the main takeway from OO, for me, is late binding
2019-10-04T04:43:25Z xristos: everything else falls by the wayside
2019-10-04T04:43:30Z xristos: both smalltalk and cl allow for late binding
2019-10-04T04:43:47Z xristos: in somewhat different ways
2019-10-04T04:48:02Z ebrasca: beach: Morning!
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2019-10-04T04:49:29Z beach: nwoob: Don't let yourself be impressed by phrases such as "in <language x>, everything is an object", though.  It is not true in Common Lisp, and not in most other languages either, if any.
2019-10-04T04:56:45Z loke: beach: It could be. You just have to define “object” in a way that makes the statement true (which also highlights how useless that terminology is, IMHO of course)
2019-10-04T04:58:19Z beach: You could do that, sure.
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2019-10-04T04:59:04Z beach: Or, the more popular technique, which is to restrict "thing" to mean "object".
2019-10-04T04:59:34Z beach: loke: As it turns out, "object" is defined by the Common Lisp HyperSpec glossary, so you can't expand it.
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2019-10-04T05:05:22Z beach: Even before I finished my coffee, I could think of four things in Common Lisp that are not objects: 1. Comments in source code.  2. Types.  3. Places.  4. Bindings.
2019-10-04T05:10:04Z beach: 5. Blocks.
2019-10-04T05:10:19Z beach is going through the glossary, looking for nouns.
2019-10-04T05:11:43Z beach: I'll leave the rest as an exercise.
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2019-10-04T08:56:41Z tourjin: https://bpaste.net/show/eW1Y  what does "package does not exist" means?  what kind of package should I install to use (ext:shell ...) ?
2019-10-04T08:57:12Z beach: tourjin: You maybe be confusing "package" with "system".
2019-10-04T08:57:48Z beach: Which implementation are you using?
2019-10-04T08:58:32Z beach: SBCL, I see.  I don't think SBCL has a package named "EXT".
2019-10-04T08:58:41Z loke: EXT is from CLISP, isn't it?
2019-10-04T08:58:44Z loke: Or ECL?
2019-10-04T08:58:58Z beach: tourjin: Where did you find the information on such a package in SBCL?
2019-10-04T08:59:04Z tourjin: i'm sure i'm totally confusing. which implementation =? windows10 emacs sbcl ?
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2019-10-04T08:59:23Z beach: tourjin: I am asking about the Common Lisp implementation you are using.
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2019-10-04T08:59:28Z beach: It appears to be SBCL.
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2019-10-04T08:59:38Z beach: And SBCL does not have a package named "EXT".
2019-10-04T08:59:42Z tourjin: ah.. I followed the book.
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2019-10-04T08:59:48Z beach: What book?
2019-10-04T09:00:09Z tourjin: i see. by conrad
2019-10-04T09:00:20Z beach: What is the name of the book?
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2019-10-04T09:01:05Z tourjin: I don't know the english name. land of lisp?
2019-10-04T09:01:08Z beach: That book must not be using SBCL then.  Is that the book that is notorious for using implementation-specific stuff?
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2019-10-04T09:01:56Z beach: If so, you should either find a different book, or use the implementation that the code in the book requires.
2019-10-04T09:02:54Z Shinmera: beach: the notorious one is Let Over Lambda
2019-10-04T09:03:05Z beach: Ah, OK, thanks.
2019-10-04T09:03:17Z tourjin: I see . thanks . this is the only book I can find in the library.
2019-10-04T09:03:25Z saturn2: clisp has ext:shell
2019-10-04T09:03:35Z loke: saturn2: I knew it :-)
2019-10-04T09:03:50Z beach: tourjin: For learning Common Lisp?  Come on!  PCL is on-line for free, so is PAIP, and several others.
2019-10-04T09:03:50Z tourjin: gnuclisp is clisp?
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2019-10-04T09:04:35Z tourjin: is PCL book name?
2019-10-04T09:04:44Z tourjin: PAIP
2019-10-04T09:04:53Z beach: minion: Please tell tourjin about PCL
2019-10-04T09:04:54Z minion: tourjin: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2019-10-04T09:04:59Z beach: minion: Please tell tourjin about PAIP.
2019-10-04T09:04:59Z minion: tourjin: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2019-10-04T09:05:24Z saturn2: tourjin: yes, gnu clisp
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2019-10-04T09:05:34Z tourjin: i found recently there are a lot of  excelent online books.
2019-10-04T09:05:42Z no-defun-allowed: beach: the Land of Lisp uses CLISP functions for socketing (instead of using a portable library like usocket)
2019-10-04T09:06:03Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Thanks.
2019-10-04T09:06:42Z tourjin: saturn2 then can I connect my emacs with gnuclisp like sbcl?
2019-10-04T09:07:30Z saturn2: it's possible as far as i know although i've never tried it
2019-10-04T09:08:14Z loke: tourjin: SBCL is the main recommended version of Common Lisp, unless you have specific requirements.
2019-10-04T09:08:32Z shka__: CCL/SBCL i would say
2019-10-04T09:08:49Z loke: (for example, need to run on the JVM: Use ABCL. Need to use from C: Use ECL. Need to be portable to obscure architectures: Use CLISP)
2019-10-04T09:08:51Z shka__: people on OSX love CCL
2019-10-04T09:09:24Z tourjin: i see. most of you said that before. thanks.
2019-10-04T09:09:27Z loke: need to spend money: LW or Allegro
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2019-10-04T09:12:50Z saturn2: tourjin: if you have quicklisp installed, you should be able to use uiop:run-program instead of ext:shell
2019-10-04T09:14:01Z tourjin: i'm still reading an introduction to programming in Emacs lisp. I even feel a spasm on my fingers.
2019-10-04T09:14:31Z loke: tourjin: Do note that Emacs Lisp and Common Lisp are two distinct languages.
2019-10-04T09:14:41Z loke: THey have some things in common, but they are very different.
2019-10-04T09:14:47Z tourjin: oh. yes I have quicklisp  installed though I'm not sure I did it correctly.
2019-10-04T09:15:41Z shka__: emacs lisp is pretty close lisp 1.5 in many ways
2019-10-04T09:16:31Z shka__: common lisp is a more advanced
2019-10-04T09:16:39Z shka__: language
2019-10-04T09:16:58Z tourjin: thanks saturn2 . I'll try it at home. hm.. am I reading wrong document? It helped me a lot . :-) I learned some emacs moves.
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2019-10-04T09:20:38Z tourjin: I thought that document was about lisp using emacs. there is another emacs lisp?  then would I better move to other documents?
2019-10-04T09:21:08Z beach: What document is that?
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2019-10-04T09:21:42Z tourjin: An Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp.
2019-10-04T09:22:52Z beach: tourjin: It is a bit confusing.  Emacs is (partly) written in its own dialect of Lisp called "Emacs Lisp", and that dialect is not Common Lisp.  But then, to program in Common Lisp, you typically use your Common Lisp implementation form Emacs.
2019-10-04T09:23:48Z beach: tourjin: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so it is not appropriate for discussing Emacs Lisp.
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2019-10-04T09:24:25Z beach is not sure that tourjin's question was answered.
2019-10-04T09:25:19Z tourjin: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eintr/index.html that's what i'm reading.
2019-10-04T09:26:00Z beach: tourjin: So what is the relation between that document and the book you are reading, and the GNU Clisp implementation you are using?
2019-10-04T09:26:20Z beach: tourjin: You seem to have suddenly switched from one topic to another.
2019-10-04T09:27:41Z tourjin: I was reading what I could find. now I see Land of lisp is about clisp.
2019-10-04T09:28:10Z beach: It is probably mostly about Common Lisp, but apparently it has some CLISP-specific stuff in it.
2019-10-04T09:28:43Z tourjin: oh.. battery is over. thanks. see u soon. i'm really thank you.
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2019-10-04T10:04:45Z shka__: how can i use format directives to print alist in as "(key, value), (other-key, other-value)"?
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2019-10-04T10:12:58Z loke: shka__: Almost. :-)
2019-10-04T10:13:01Z loke: (format t "~{(~{~s~^, ~})~^, ~}" '((a 10) (b 20) (c 30)))
2019-10-04T10:13:12Z loke: not a proper alist though
2019-10-04T10:13:35Z beach: Sure it is.
2019-10-04T10:13:47Z loke: beach: You know what I mean
2019-10-04T10:13:49Z shka__: ok, i just used ~/
2019-10-04T10:13:53Z beach: The values are (10) (20) and (30) respectively. :)
2019-10-04T10:13:54Z loke: It won't work for all proper alists
2019-10-04T10:14:55Z loke: shka__: What was the use case for this?
2019-10-04T10:15:14Z shka__: for this style formatting?
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2019-10-04T10:17:34Z no-defun-allowed: (defun write-alist-pair (stream pair &rest rest) (format stream "(~s, ~s)" (car pair) (cdr pair))) (format t "~{~/WRITE-ALIST-PAIR/~^, ~}" alist)
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2019-10-04T10:17:50Z shka__: no-defun-allowed: yes
2019-10-04T10:20:20Z scymtym: or ALEXANDRIA:ALIST-PLIST with ~{(~S, ~S)~^, ~} if the extra work doesn't matter
2019-10-04T10:21:28Z shka__: acceptable solution
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2019-10-04T13:02:31Z bmansurov: o/ Anyone knows how to make paredit aware of Common Lisp pathnames? When I type #P", Paredit inserts a space before the quote. How can I prevent it?
2019-10-04T13:03:01Z loke: bmansurov: THere is a way... let me check what I did to fix it
2019-10-04T13:03:19Z bmansurov: loke: cool!
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2019-10-04T13:08:30Z loke: bmansurov: https://gist.github.com/lokedhs/859deb7d8a262424ea86ddf6b63f9bf7
2019-10-04T13:08:48Z bmansurov: loke: thank you
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2019-10-04T14:07:14Z XenophonF: I want to download a 6-GB JSON doc and upload it to a PostgreSQL database using SBCL, but I'm at a bit of a loss as how to do the following in Lisp.
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2019-10-04T14:07:55Z XenophonF: Progressively downloading a (large) JSON document.
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2019-10-04T14:08:13Z XenophonF: Stepping through it as it downloads.  Maybe that's a dumb thing to do.
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2019-10-04T14:08:51Z XenophonF: Not reading the whole JSON document into memory while processing it.
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2019-10-04T14:09:31Z Shinmera: You'll need an incremental JSON parser library. I'm not sure there is one (yet).
2019-10-04T14:09:45Z XenophonF: I could maybe use PostgreSQL COPY to do the load, but I don't want the data in JSON/JSONB format, hence the need for some parsing.
2019-10-04T14:09:50Z dlowe: XenophonF: https://pgloader.io/
2019-10-04T14:10:28Z XenophonF: thank you both :)
2019-10-04T14:10:40Z dlowe: pgloader is in common lisp, too
2019-10-04T14:11:22Z XenophonF: even better, looks like there's a quicklisp package, too
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2019-10-04T18:14:02Z seok: Hi guys
2019-10-04T18:14:27Z seok: which library do you guys recommend for statistical operations?
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2019-10-04T18:44:58Z _death: check out sapaclisp
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2019-10-04T19:43:13Z akhetopnu: has anyone had any success with async queries in postmodern or everyone just uses it synchronously / with threads? Does it even support async queries? I don't see any info about it in the docs
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2019-10-04T20:42:39Z p_l: akhetopnu: the underlying protocol is synchronouse
2019-10-04T20:42:58Z p_l: and I think postmodern reflects that
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2019-10-04T20:48:14Z thijso wonders why some programmers revel in making their systems as hard to use as possible, preferably with hidden and magic interpretations of keywords so that no sane person can make heads or tails of it
2019-10-04T20:48:28Z thijso: that, or I'm just stupid. Also possible.
2019-10-04T20:48:57Z Xach: thijso: sometimes it's all due to context - something made sense at the time and in a particular context
2019-10-04T20:48:59Z thijso: Sorry, rant over. Not (directly) related to #lisp, so in the wrong window to boot. mea culpa
2019-10-04T20:49:25Z Xach: building on previous experiences both good and bad to arrive at what seems like the best thing to do at the time
2019-10-04T20:49:38Z thijso: Xach: true. But in the case of CMake I'm wondering what they were smoking at the time they made it
2019-10-04T20:50:19Z thijso: Anyway. I'm done. Time to veg out in front of the TV to wipe this filth out of my head. And start over tomorrow, sadly...
2019-10-04T20:53:32Z p_l: thijso: a significant portion is lack of 1) compiler courses being taken 2) people not having good tools to make DSLs
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2019-10-04T20:54:14Z Shinmera: I think there's a fundamental lack of extensive language design courses.
2019-10-04T20:54:28Z Shinmera: Which is something that's not really related to compilers.
2019-10-04T20:58:33Z aeth: thijso: You definitely think differently in different programming languages. Just write something in C, and in C++ (being heavily used for modern OOP not as C-with-classes), and in Python, and in CL... and even in Scheme. You'll get completely different solutions to some things.
2019-10-04T20:58:44Z aeth: Even though some of the languages are in theory quite close, like C with C++, or CL with Scheme.
2019-10-04T20:59:21Z aeth: That is, if you care about utilizing the standard library and key recommended libraries, and writing idiomatic code.
2019-10-04T21:00:17Z aeth: Now, if people did p_l's approach and first made a DSL to solve the problem, then you'd get much closer solutions across all of the languages, but people won't even think about doing that (especially if they're using a language where that's hard)
2019-10-04T21:02:00Z aeth: A lot of "hard to use" systems are, stereotypically, enterprise Java, working around limitations in the Java language (especially really ancient versions of the Java language whose issues were later fixed... since we're talking about enterprise, after all)
2019-10-04T21:02:49Z ralt: nah, java devs just have a hard-on on xml
2019-10-04T21:02:57Z aeth: OOP in C++ and Java are all about encapsulating individual values within classes, and protecting those from outsiders.
2019-10-04T21:03:10Z aeth: This really gives you different class design than in Python or CL
2019-10-04T21:03:23Z aeth: (not to mention static vs. dynamic typing)
2019-10-04T21:03:33Z ralt: python is like this too...?
2019-10-04T21:03:47Z ralt: I mean, all attributes are ultimately reachable, but it can be really hard
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2019-10-04T21:04:37Z ralt: (a bit like in java, with reflection)
2019-10-04T21:04:52Z p_l: ralt: a lot of java devs don't have a hard-on for XML. What a lot of Enteprise Programmers For A Dime do love is IDEs automagically generating "XML" from their bashed together classes
2019-10-04T21:05:04Z p_l: which isn't really related to either XML or Java
2019-10-04T21:05:09Z antoszka: python, by convention, is just a vertical wall of state modifications, à la MS Basic in 1984
2019-10-04T21:05:20Z antoszka: except pretends to be trendy OOP
2019-10-04T21:05:35Z p_l remembers when classes were still plain dicts with magic symbol names
2019-10-04T21:05:51Z aeth: XML in Java is just a relic of the time it's from imo... if Java was up and coming in 2019 it'd all be about structured JSON with elaborate JSON schemas...
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2019-10-04T21:05:56Z p_l: they don't differ much from that
2019-10-04T21:06:05Z antoszka: speaking of DSLs, XML and Java reminded me of this joke: – What's Java? – A DSL for turning XML files into stack traces.
2019-10-04T21:06:11Z p_l: aeth: or something else
2019-10-04T21:06:18Z aeth: p_l: don't tell them about YAML
2019-10-04T21:06:20Z p_l actually likes XML. And SOAP
2019-10-04T21:06:23Z aeth: Please don't let people know about YAML...
2019-10-04T21:06:32Z Ober: or toml
2019-10-04T21:06:39Z Shinmera: Can we get back on track and ditch all this talk about languages that are not Common Lisp? Thanks.
2019-10-04T21:06:44Z aeth: Anyway, multiple dispatch is probably the biggest thing that affects OOP design and, that's kind of CLOS vs. the world.
2019-10-04T21:06:44Z p_l: aeth: now consider that all JSON is valid YAML, of course so long as the JSON somehow fits local definition of JSON
2019-10-04T21:08:23Z p_l: as for XML stack... it's a powerful tool in a domain that requires thought in design (file/data interchange format design domain). Unfortunately XML made it possible to make "interoperable" format with click of a mouse button, and that had horrible results
2019-10-04T21:08:45Z aeth: With CLOS you get (impact asteroid spaceship) vs. asteroid.impact(spaceship) or spaceship.impact(asteroid) but perhaps that's not the best example. Another one would be (intersect ray geometry) vs. ray.intersect(geometry) or geometry.intersect(ray)... Where does the method live? Well, nowhere of course
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2019-10-04T21:09:51Z aeth: p_l: XML is almost a good format but it's really ambiguous as to whether you should do <foo> <bar> 42 </bar> whatever </foo> or <foo bar="42"> whatever </foo> or even <foo bar="42" msg="whatever" />
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2019-10-04T21:10:26Z p_l: aeth: that's why I said it requires thought.
2019-10-04T21:10:40Z aeth: You could make it less verbose by only having a start name and kind of combinding both into something like this: <foo <bar 42> whatever>
2019-10-04T21:10:48Z aeth: *combining
2019-10-04T21:10:53Z p_l: But barely anyone outside of W3C designs an XML-based format by starting from XML Schema and thinking
2019-10-04T21:11:31Z p_l: aeth: one thing people forget is that XML was designed for much higher ratio of content to tags than typical use of, let's say, JSON
2019-10-04T21:12:26Z p_l: and that one should think in design what is attribute and what should be nested. It's not "ambiguous" because they are not equivalent. The decision is left to Schema designer to weight different reasons for both
2019-10-04T21:12:51Z aeth: I can't wait for s-expression schemas, personally.
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2019-10-04T21:14:08Z p_l: aeth: it might work with CL packages
2019-10-04T21:14:13Z aeth: For s-expressions as data, you're basically already there, but you probably should use true and false instead of t and nil to make things more cross-language. (If it's XML-style, everything has a prefix, so there's no ambiguity between nil-as-empty-list and nil-as-false, though. It'd always be nil-as-false.)
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2019-10-04T21:15:47Z ralt: https://github.com/Zirak/SEN
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2019-10-04T21:17:46Z aeth: ralt: That's exactly the kind of sloppy, problematic s-expression-as-data that I'm criticizing. It uses "nil" for false and "t" for true, but has no prefixes...
2019-10-04T21:18:03Z aeth: It has "(value0 value1 value2)" as its example for lists and "(:key0 val0 :key1 val1)" as its example for "dicts"
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2019-10-04T21:18:36Z aeth: So an empty "dict" and an empty list would both be ()? Is that equivalent to nil here? If it's not, we just made a CL implementation harder
2019-10-04T21:20:42Z p_l: namespaces are some of the best additions of XML
2019-10-04T21:20:57Z p_l: also, a proper such format needs, IMO, canonicalization routine
2019-10-04T21:21:01Z aeth: ralt: If it's s-expressions as a compromise between JSON and XML instead of s-expressions as basically just a rewriting of JSON, the ambiguities go away at the expense of a bit more verbosity.
2019-10-04T21:21:38Z p_l: considering that JSON is essentially the kind of crippled s-expression that could have been born in JS-land...
2019-10-04T21:23:03Z p_l: remember, the canonical JSON reader implementation was eval('('+ jsonString + ')');
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2019-10-04T21:23:37Z ralt: "canonical"
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2019-10-04T21:28:39Z aeth: p_l: to be fair my canonical s-expression reader currently isn't much more than, in that syntax, read('(' + file-stream + ')'); https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/32cd984b808fbd5f3f14d3fd4f123df494a6c3af/data/game-data.lisp#L30-39
2019-10-04T21:28:52Z aeth: I had to add a bit more complexity to handle mismatched parens
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2019-10-04T21:29:51Z aeth: I'm going to do something a bit fancier and also write an implementation in Scheme just to make sure it's not too CL-reliant, though
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2019-10-04T21:37:45Z LdBeth: Gd afternoon
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2019-10-04T21:48:48Z _death: aeth: your less verbose syntax reminds me of https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/enamel.txt
2019-10-04T21:50:55Z aeth: _death: the problem is that if you treat <foo bar="zot"/> as (foo (bar "zot")) you need to be aware of foo.
2019-10-04T21:51:41Z aeth: at least for HTML, that's mostly unnecessary, you only need to know the elements if they're an empty element, because (:br) will become <br> or <br /> depending on the conventional or XML style used.
2019-10-04T21:52:34Z _death: yeah.. or you can use XHTML
2019-10-04T21:53:09Z aeth: If you represent <a href="https://example.com/">example</a> as (:a :href "https://example.com/" "example") then what you do is you iterate until you no longer have a valid key-as-keyword plist and then the rest is the body contents. If you do (a (href "https://example.com/") "example") well congratulations, now you need to keep up with the living standard of HTML and know all of it.
2019-10-04T21:53:28Z aeth: Because you need to know that it should be <a href... instead of <a> <href...
2019-10-04T21:53:38Z _death: aeth: Naggum talks about this
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2019-10-04T21:56:51Z _death: btw you only need to keep up if you want to use the latest and the "greatest".. if your values diverge from the standard-churning committees you may be ok with not using every fancy new feature they dream up
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2019-10-04T22:02:01Z vsync: "living standard" LOL
2019-10-04T22:02:50Z aeth: _death: I've settled on something like this as a good compromise between having to know/hardcode too much about HTML (really, you only need to know the empty elements) and being easy to write. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/cl-documents/blob/6d6cd886aa1ff64c349a72f0957943e431489ab9/generate-html.lisp#L175-194
2019-10-04T22:03:33Z aeth: _death: The only remaining issue is that it is much more complicated to do this dynamically than statically, i.e. replacing (:p "Hello, world!") with (:p "Hello, " person "!")
2019-10-04T22:06:01Z aeth: That's because there's now a layer of indirection. You'd need to write the HTML markup to a string, and then write that string to the desired stream at run time. Technically, it'd probably be faster to do that even statically.
2019-10-04T22:06:17Z aeth: s/even statically/even with static HTML/
2019-10-04T22:08:41Z TMA: aeth: nay. for <a><href>https://example.com/</href>example you would have (a () (href () "https://example.com/") "example") and that would be unambiguous
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2019-10-04T22:09:18Z aeth: TMA: Yes, if you want to always have a () that is an alternative possibility, I didn't consider that
2019-10-04T22:09:28Z travv016: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-04T22:09:28Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=88a32f2a will be valid until 22:15 UTC.
2019-10-04T22:09:33Z aeth: TMA: easiest implementation, but not the most concise if attributes aren't common
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2019-10-04T22:11:30Z aeth: It's more verbose for "plain" HTML, but there's certainly a lot of generated HTML that is full of (span :class foo ...) that could just as easily be (span (:class foo) ...)
2019-10-04T22:12:00Z aeth: hmm, maybe I should put it as an alternate syntax
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2019-10-04T22:15:31Z _death: aeth: yes, that's what good html generators do.. they interleave the static HTML fragment strings with the code to generate the dynamic parts
2019-10-04T22:17:09Z _death: I've not written any web stuff these recent years, but yaclml would still be my go-to library for this
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2019-10-04T22:32:44Z _death: it does differentiate between tags and attributes.. as you come up with your own tag macros you can choose to do away with the latter I guess, though in my projects I did not
2019-10-04T22:32:55Z _death: *elements
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2019-10-04T22:52:37Z Josh_2: Xach you here?
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2019-10-04T22:57:54Z Xach: Josh_2: hi
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2019-10-04T23:01:51Z Josh_2: I have a question about how you are writing zs3. I am just curious, I was reading through some of the sourcecode and I noticed that you are generating lots of lambdas based on the value of 'form' (I think) why are you writing the code like this instead of using clos and generic functions?
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2019-10-04T23:02:18Z Josh_2: I was specifically looking in xml-binding.lisp
2019-10-04T23:02:22Z aeth: _death: It would probably be wiser to use a library but (1) most libraries I've seen don't solve the problem in a satisfactory way, in that you're mostly just format niling a bunch of intermediate strings around the place at runtime and (2) I'm kind of going for a more, idk, pandoc approach?
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2019-10-04T23:03:09Z aeth: I think I'm going to try org after markdown, although if I do that I'll probably never finish
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2019-10-04T23:03:35Z aeth: BBcode might be a simpler next target
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2019-10-04T23:09:35Z _death: aeth: heh, I guess it's another rite-of-passage thing.. to write your own html generator
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2019-10-04T23:20:01Z Xach: Josh_2: how would it be different with clos and generic functions?
2019-10-04T23:20:36Z Xach: Josh_2: generating functions to do matching is something i borrowed from cl-ppcre
2019-10-04T23:23:36Z aeth: _death: Well, generating HTML is kind of secondary to my goal here, although not secondary enough for me to rely on a library to do what I want.
2019-10-04T23:27:37Z _death: aeth: what is the goal? generating documentation?
2019-10-04T23:29:20Z aeth: _death: sort of
2019-10-04T23:29:52Z aeth: _death: I mean, exactly yes, it's just that the documentation is incredibly elaborate and difficult compared to an ordinary library because the library I am going to be documenting is a game engine
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2019-10-04T23:31:09Z aeth: _death: So I need to essentially be able to document linear algebra, computational physics, computer graphics, etc. And with an insane target like HTML (or XHTML) instead of a sane target like LaTeX
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2019-10-04T23:31:54Z aeth: _death: Hence the several month diversion from the engine itself (although the commits only go back a few weeks)
2019-10-04T23:31:56Z _death: I've been going the texinfo route lately..
2019-10-04T23:33:43Z Josh_2: Xach is there a tutorial or an explanation on this somewhere?
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2019-10-04T23:39:01Z aeth: _death: I'd love to be able to explore different routes, but I'm kind of forced into one of two routes (not mutually exclusive): in-browser documentation and in-editor documentation... assuming my engine will one day get an editor like most game engines tend to bloat into having these days... except I don't have the latter at this point.
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2019-10-04T23:39:40Z Xach: Josh_2: cl-ppcre sources are good to read!
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2019-10-04T23:41:05Z aeth: _death: texinfo->html might work, but I suspect the subset is far too much of a subset for my needs. If I had to use an external markup+tool, I'd probably try to do some LaTeX->HTML
2019-10-04T23:42:03Z _death: aeth: yeah, I guess markdown is reasonable for that.. so when you have an editor you can easily render it
2019-10-04T23:42:56Z _death: Xach: I remember a blog post of yours that demonstrated the technique..
2019-10-04T23:44:10Z _death: https://xach.livejournal.com/131456.html
2019-10-04T23:47:50Z aeth: _death: The important characteristics about Markdown are (1) you can embed HTML into it to get features it doesn't support and (2) it's commonplace to extend it (especially tables) to fit a particular domain. Also, familiarity, I guess, but I personally have used org, Markdown, restructuredtext, MediaWiki markup, BBCode, LaTeX, etc., and they all have advantages and disadvantages and it's not hard to pick up quite a few of them.
2019-10-04T23:49:40Z aeth: The problem with org, btw, is that you don't implement org, you "export" a subset of org from its native GNU Emacs environment... e.g. you're not going to be supporting https://orgmode.org/manual/The-Spreadsheet.html#The-Spreadsheet
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2019-10-04T23:52:15Z aeth: _death: Of course, the disadvantage of Markdown is that if you do use that HTML feature, it's not as simple to implement a new, non-browser backend for it since the language then isn't as simple as it seems.
2019-10-04T23:52:39Z _death: yeah.. some years ago I used org for writing documentation and generated pdf/html.. I used emacs in batch mode, but also had to hack htmlize.el a bit to get what I wanted
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2019-10-04T23:53:33Z aeth: yeah, that's the thing... you kind of need to control the whole pipline if you want (a) input->HTML to work and (b) input->something-else to eventually work using the subset of features that you need it to support
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2019-10-04T23:55:00Z _death: hmm, either htmlize or org-export-as-html or both.. apparently I hacked both for some purpose in the past :)
2019-10-05T00:00:02Z aeth: there really isn't way to do this that makes everyone happy... unless you heavily CLOSify things so that they can effectively rewrite large parts of what you're doing via :around methods
2019-10-05T00:01:45Z _death: keep the markup language constrained.. don't allow html escape, but do allow more limited extension
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2019-10-05T00:02:57Z aeth: _death: What I'm going to do is I'm going to actually parse the HTML in the Markdown files so that I can eventually translate *those* into my intermediate format(s) as well as the Markdown itself.
2019-10-05T00:03:22Z aeth: So... now I have to write a subset of an HTML parser. I'm going to probably be stricter than some who lazily pass through the HTML or something to let browsers magic together a best-guess of what you meant
2019-10-05T00:03:58Z aeth: But now it suddenly turns one of the simplest markups into also including (a subset of) one of the hardest, so I'm going to procrastinate that for a while
2019-10-05T00:05:20Z _death: what about mathematical formulas.. it's not hard to extend markdown to support, say, mathjax syntax.. but now you need to write your own mathjax
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2019-10-05T00:08:21Z _death: I remember a long time ago xof showed off some mcclim hack displaying math formulas
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2019-10-05T00:11:43Z aeth: _death: Well, presentation MathML should trivially follow from HTML generation. I mean, it's hideously ugly, but that only will affect generation speed a bit and memory a bit, since you never have to directly touch it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML#Presentation_and_semantics
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2019-10-05T00:12:49Z aeth: I also already deal with changing the writer in the middle of writing the content (for directly-embedded CSS in <style>) so that's just going to be yet another special case tag
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2019-10-05T00:14:39Z _death: talking about the rendering.. but I guess it's something for the future ;)
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2019-10-05T00:16:00Z aeth: _death: I thought MathML is supported in modern browsers and something like MathJAX is for legacy browsers? Although most people who generate equations rarely check that the browser can actually do it without having to go down the legacy branch (another alternative many do, e.g. Wikipedia, is generating images)
2019-10-05T00:16:24Z aeth: _death: but, yes, there would also have to be another path for the native GUI, when that happens
2019-10-05T00:18:53Z _death: aeth: I dunno.. some time ago I wrote a static blog generator with a friend that rendered markdown using 3bmd.. it had support for writing latex to be rendered by mathjax, since the friend was used to writing in that notation
2019-10-05T00:19:25Z _death: I don't think I've seen mathml used
2019-10-05T00:19:58Z aeth: _death: Oh, weird, Chrome removed it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML#Browser_support
2019-10-05T00:20:32Z aeth: _death: Yet another case of a monopolist holding technology and standard back, I guess. Their solution "use JavaScript" is, of course, good for their bottom line since using JavaScript enables the tracking that drives their megacorporation.
2019-10-05T00:20:52Z aeth: I think I'll use MathML and MathML alone anyway. Maybe with a link to download Firefox. :-)
2019-10-05T00:21:44Z aeth: Basically if you're just a Chromium reskin, you can't use MathML, but if you're any other browser (even Webkit) you can. https://caniuse.com/#search=mathml
2019-10-05T00:22:51Z aeth: (okay, IE/Edge don't support it either, but IE supports nothing interesting and Edge was basically trying to be functionally compatible with Chromium until they decided to eventually switch their backend to Chromium to save the effort)
2019-10-05T00:26:49Z _death: chromium: math is hard, let's emoji
2019-10-05T00:29:38Z aeth: The presentation MathML example from Wikipedia works perfectly fine in Firefox.
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2019-10-05T00:40:24Z _death: since browsers are gluttons for complexity, why have mathml instead of the notation that everyone uses already (latex)
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2019-10-05T00:41:28Z _death: it would make my life easier, for sure.. (I use a browser with js disabled by default.. every site that uses mathjax w/ latex I need to consider and perhaps reopen with a js-enabled browser)
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2019-10-05T00:41:39Z aeth: _death: the general idea is that you would parse the LaTeX subset that everyone uses for equations into (something like) mathml and never write it directly
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2019-10-05T00:42:08Z _death: also, since you talk about javascript that way... it's surprising that you use gitlab, another annoying site that requires javascript to display source code
2019-10-05T00:42:16Z aeth: supporting (the subset of) math LaTeX would set the precedent to do things like directly supporting Markdown
2019-10-05T00:43:47Z aeth: _death: Ah, weird, I thought it only used JS for the syntax highlighting and not the source code entirely, which is fairly common. Requiring JS for a web application is very different than requiring it for a document, though.
2019-10-05T00:43:56Z _death: yes.. at this point nobody in their right mind contemplates writing a browser.. so adding these things is no big deal
2019-10-05T00:44:04Z Josh_2: welllll
2019-10-05T00:44:10Z Josh_2: there is Next :P
2019-10-05T00:44:32Z LdBeth: At this point pure html are in extinction
2019-10-05T00:44:37Z _death: Josh_2: that uses existing engines
2019-10-05T00:44:45Z Josh_2: oh right
2019-10-05T00:46:07Z aeth: _death: Imo, JS in an ordinary web page should only be used for features that aren't essential... so requiring it to render math equations is absolutely unacceptable, since it's essential to the nature of the page (displaying the non-application document correctly). Doing the Wikipedia approach and making equations images is complicated and anti-accessibility (and also makes it hard to search the page)
2019-10-05T00:46:22Z aeth: _death: Something like MathML is much better.
2019-10-05T00:46:38Z aeth: (Even though it is a hideous monstrosity to look at directly and should never be written by hand)
2019-10-05T00:47:48Z _death: aeth: yeah.. though I can't complain about wikipedia's method ;)
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2019-10-05T00:48:07Z aeth: _death: Gitlab requiring JS to display source code actually *is* pretty bad, and it's gitlab-static.net so it requires a whitelist of JS to get it to load in umatrix (which only allows first-party JS by default)...
2019-10-05T00:48:16Z aeth: I wonder if it was always the case, probably not
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2019-10-05T00:49:40Z _death: Josh_2: btw, there is Closure :)
2019-10-05T00:50:02Z _death: Josh_2: https://common-lisp.net/project/closure/
2019-10-05T00:50:27Z Josh_2: bit old
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2019-10-05T00:53:15Z vms14: did you try Next or Closure?
2019-10-05T00:53:46Z Josh_2: I tried Next but didn't work ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ
2019-10-05T00:54:02Z LdBeth: I tried next but it sucks
2019-10-05T00:54:50Z vms14: xD
2019-10-05T00:55:00Z LdBeth: And no success building Closure
2019-10-05T00:55:02Z vms14: but it's written in cl, you could make it suck less
2019-10-05T00:55:17Z LdBeth: It uses WebKit
2019-10-05T00:56:09Z LdBeth: Pretty much needs to figure out the WebKit API to modify it
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2019-10-05T01:00:03Z aeth: I mean, technically, it could just add rendering to the HTML parser that I'll have to write to write a complete Markdown parser, when I get to it... but you kind of want compatible rendering, not just rendering.
2019-10-05T01:02:19Z vms14: do you consider using nginx + hunchentoot?
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2019-10-05T01:04:49Z vms14: I know nginx is good for a load balancer, and it seems to be a very convenient way to use it as a proxy, so it could serve static stuff and use hunch for dynamic stuff
2019-10-05T01:05:18Z vms14: Nginx is one of a handful of servers written to address the C10K problem
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2019-10-05T01:12:55Z vms14: knowing I have no thread support in sbcl because I use netbsd for me seems even a better option
2019-10-05T01:13:11Z vms14: how usable is hunchentoot w/o threads?
2019-10-05T01:13:13Z vms14: xD
2019-10-05T01:13:44Z aeth: vms14: While technically I am going to have to do "dynamic" HTML as in not-at-macro-expansion-time HTML (for the markdown), I'm writing static HTML here, for Gitlab Pages.
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2019-10-05T01:19:01Z vms14: are you writing a markdown "generator" using reader macros?
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2019-10-05T01:22:20Z aeth: vms14: parsing markdown, writing HTML. Technically, the way I write my parser (which I consider idiomatic for CL) makes it trivial to turn into a reader macro since it uses streams
2019-10-05T01:22:34Z aeth: s/parser/parsers/
2019-10-05T01:22:51Z vms14: so regexp
2019-10-05T01:23:12Z vms14: well reader macros should be slower than cl-ppcre
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2019-10-05T01:35:30Z _death: aeth: so, here's my hack for the day: https://gist.github.com/death/12141afa3b3252e991003bc18cb5760d ;)
2019-10-05T01:36:12Z no-defun-allowed: What's it do?
2019-10-05T01:37:09Z _death: no-defun-allowed: it's a greasemonkey script to fetch and "transclude" the source code without needing to enable js in firefox
2019-10-05T01:37:20Z no-defun-allowed: Right then.
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2019-10-05T02:03:55Z aeth: _death: technically you are using JS there... :-p
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2019-10-05T03:19:45Z seok: how's lisp arrays performance compare to numpy?
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2019-10-05T03:39:13Z aeth: seok: The performance is probably going to be worse, but only because of lack of attention, not because of lack of potential. In CL, you can use native arrays for high-performance code, while in Python you have to FFI out to Fortran or C or C++ using something like Numpy.
2019-10-05T03:39:39Z seok: Yeah, that's what I would've guessed
2019-10-05T03:40:01Z seok: Was hopeful something was written in lisp though
2019-10-05T03:40:12Z aeth: seok: except you can basically do the same thing and, for 1D arrays, use FFI with them and call out to the same optimized Fortran or whatever that Numpy uses in its backend
2019-10-05T03:40:19Z aeth: using static-vectors, for instance
2019-10-05T03:40:45Z aeth: But unlike with Python, there's nothing stopping you from writing Fortran-competing numerical code in CL afaik... it's just, a lot of work.
2019-10-05T03:40:54Z seok: : (
2019-10-05T03:41:28Z seok: Was wishing I could use lisp for quick statistical job with a lot of data
2019-10-05T03:42:10Z seok: Thanks aeth
2019-10-05T03:42:32Z aeth: seok: I'm guessing that natively in CL it's probably going to be about 3x slower than the equivalent Fortran/C/C++ because the compiler won't SIMD your operations and there probably aren't many libraries to do that for you with inline asm for SBCL.
2019-10-05T03:42:54Z aeth: seok: Maybe not as bad vs. Numpy because the FFI is going to add some overhead back in.
2019-10-05T03:42:57Z seok: Is there something faster in other implementations?
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2019-10-05T03:43:58Z aeth: SBCL is basically the only implementation you're going to have a good time writing numerical code in, even though it will technically run everywhere (as long as you have a slow path if you write a SBCL-specific fast path in asm)
2019-10-05T03:44:17Z aeth: SBCL does more optimziations for this kind of thing, so slower compile time but faster run time.
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2019-10-05T03:46:20Z aeth: But if you care about performance, you're probably going to have to FFI not because you need to FFI to write fast numerical code but because there isn't much numerical code in native CL.
2019-10-05T03:47:04Z aeth: Technically that's not quite true. Maxima, a CAS, compiles Fortran to CL, but it uses this antiquated library that generates garbage numerical SBCL. Something written with SBCL's optimizations in mind could probably produce something that generates considerably faster asm when you run DISASSEMBLE.
2019-10-05T03:48:00Z aeth: seok: what are you trying to do, though?
2019-10-05T03:48:20Z seok: Statistics on forex tick data
2019-10-05T03:48:25Z seok: Ive done some a while ago in python
2019-10-05T03:48:44Z aeth: That doesn't sound particularly elaborate.
2019-10-05T03:48:49Z aeth: What functions do you need?
2019-10-05T03:49:09Z seok: Just thought it would've been cleaner if I could do it in CL if I don't have to give up performance
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2019-10-05T03:49:27Z seok: just simple min max sd correlation covariance
2019-10-05T03:49:36Z seok: on large dataset (~300 million)
2019-10-05T03:49:58Z aeth: Are you willing to write those routines yourself? If you are, you absolutely don't have to give up performance.
2019-10-05T03:50:07Z aeth: You just have to be aware of the quirks of optimizing SBCL.
2019-10-05T03:50:11Z seok: How much writing do you mean?
2019-10-05T03:50:19Z Ober: memory usage
2019-10-05T03:50:37Z aeth: The tl;dr of optimizing SBCL is that you want to do everything in structs of arrays of specific numerical types, ideally with a known length at compile time.
2019-10-05T03:50:41Z Ober: the aver entries make it much less painful to optimize imho
2019-10-05T03:51:00Z seok: I remember that the amount of data I used to run on numpy was around 16gb
2019-10-05T03:51:15Z seok: so it just fit on my ram, didn't have to do batch jobs
2019-10-05T03:51:38Z aeth: If you're working with integers that are larger (or smaller) than the fixnum size but that can fit in signed-byte or unsigned-byte 64, or if you're working with double floats, you want to keep them in arrays and work with mutations so that you don't heap allocate. (optimize (speed 3)) will warn you in SBCL
2019-10-05T03:52:00Z aeth: You'll have to run SBCL with a command line flag to give more heap memory.
2019-10-05T03:52:09Z aeth: I think it defaults to 1 GB or 2 GB.
2019-10-05T03:52:11Z seok: single floats should be fine
2019-10-05T03:52:27Z Ober: e.g. sbcl --control-stack-size 2048 --dynamic-space-size 20480
2019-10-05T03:52:30Z aeth: oh, if you use single-floats it's easy as long as you're using a 64-bit implementation
2019-10-05T03:52:30Z seok: so as long as I keep data in arrays it won't be so bad?
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2019-10-05T03:53:32Z aeth: seok: you want to keep your data in arrays with an :element-type that the implementation can optimize. If you have heterogeneous data, you want to do the struct-of-arrays pattern and have multiple parallel arrays in one struct, since the arrays must be homogeneous.
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2019-10-05T03:53:46Z aeth: If you're using single-float it's a bit easier because you don't have to worry about accidental heap allocations like with double-float
2019-10-05T03:54:16Z aeth: seok: An example: (make-array 42 :element-type 'single-float :initial-element 0f0)
2019-10-05T03:55:00Z aeth: seok: Now you have a (simple-array single-float (42)) and you have to add type declarations (type hints) so that the compiler can optimize things more fully (although idk if any do this other than SBCL)
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2019-10-05T03:55:53Z seok: So i just have to keep things in simple arrays and declare everything in functions?
2019-10-05T03:56:49Z aeth: seok: simple arrays of an element-type that is not T, or those structs with slots with a :type provided, ideally with a known length so bounds checks can be removed
2019-10-05T03:57:01Z aeth: e.g. this is very optimized: (defun foo (x) (declare (type (simple-array single-float (42)) x)) (* 2f0 (aref x 37)))
2019-10-05T03:57:30Z seok: So, I don't know how numpy works in the back, for matrix operations, will optimized loops in CL be just as fast?
2019-10-05T03:57:33Z aeth: If you use double-floats, things get harder... that example but with double-floats wouldn't work well because it would heap allocate the double-float result. With doubles, you have to mutate more if you want to avoid this. Or inline functions.
2019-10-05T03:58:11Z seok: Well, data provided is only given to 6 decimal points anyway, don't think doubles are needed
2019-10-05T03:58:37Z aeth: seok: Modern processors have asm specifically intended for linear algebra, SIMD... single instructions multiple data. So... The numpy routines probably do heavy compiler hinting or inline SIMD to get this.
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2019-10-05T03:59:19Z aeth: SBCL has some SIMD support but it doesn't do it automatically, so you're going to be working one value at a time.
2019-10-05T03:59:26Z seok: hm
2019-10-05T03:59:53Z seok: python numpy works on single thread only doesn't it?
2019-10-05T04:00:09Z aeth: Python works in a single thread. Perhaps Numpy's foreign code uses more than one.
2019-10-05T04:00:40Z aeth: If matrix performance is an issue, you could call into a BLAS library for matrix multiplication using something like https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors/ to give you vectors that are both CL-native and C-native, easy to use in FFI
2019-10-05T04:00:42Z seok: I haven't noticed any multi thread activities when I was working with numpy some time ago
2019-10-05T04:01:09Z aeth: static-vector for matrices has two disadvantages: (1) you have to free your data and (2) you have to use 1D arrays, while matrices are more idiomatically expressed with 2D arrays in CL
2019-10-05T04:01:38Z aeth: (the whole "static" thing is so that the GC doesn't move the data around so C code can use it)
2019-10-05T04:01:59Z seok: Wait, if this library is fast with 1d arrays it is perfect
2019-10-05T04:02:16Z seok: Forex data are only 1d arrays
2019-10-05T04:02:17Z aeth: You should be able to use any BLAS library with a C API with static-vectors
2019-10-05T04:02:29Z aeth: (or other numerical C/etc. library)
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2019-10-05T04:02:59Z seok: https://www.cliki.net/linear%20algebra
2019-10-05T04:03:01Z seok: you mean these?
2019-10-05T04:03:27Z aeth: I'm not sure the quality of those
2019-10-05T04:03:46Z aeth: It's very easy to e.g. have an API that copies the vectors and destroys performance, and static-vectors is probably too new to be a dependency for many of those
2019-10-05T04:04:11Z aeth: It's absolutely possible to do efficient linear algebra in CL, both natively and FFI, though.
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2019-10-05T04:04:52Z aeth: Just doing it natively in CL but with many threads might beat Python+Numpy, especially if you're using a Ryzen 9 3900X or a Threadripper or similar processors.
2019-10-05T04:05:13Z seok: True that
2019-10-05T04:05:27Z aeth: If Python+Numpy is single threaded and 3x faster, I'm guessing if you throw 24+ threads (R9 3900X) at the problem, it goes away.
2019-10-05T04:05:42Z no-defun-allowed: 🅿etalisp time
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2019-10-05T04:08:53Z aeth: seok: Oh, and never assume that single-floats are sufficient, btw, unless you're using numerical algorithms that tell you that.
2019-10-05T04:09:17Z aeth: Outside of graphics, people tend to love doubles...
2019-10-05T04:09:38Z seok: Hm
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2019-10-05T04:10:32Z aeth: The main thing about double-floats is that you never want to return an individual double-float or call a non-inline function with an individual double-float (by "individual", I mean not in a struct or an array)
2019-10-05T04:10:56Z aeth: (Especially not when your data is in the millions!)
2019-10-05T04:11:32Z aeth: As long as they're in some other box (or if they stay within the scope of one function), they won't be boxed, and that greatly improves performance.
2019-10-05T04:14:22Z aeth: It's just a side effect of how most CL implementations work: something is heap allocated unless it can (with its type tag!) fit in a native word. So a 64-bit type can't fit because it needs a tag.
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2019-10-05T04:17:39Z aeth: Although if you have so many things, maybe there's a memory constraint to use singles...
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2019-10-05T04:44:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-05T04:44:56Z LdBeth: Hello beach
2019-10-05T04:45:05Z Josh_2: Mornin'
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2019-10-05T06:33:58Z selwyn: good morning all
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2019-10-05T06:44:38Z beach: Hello selwyn.
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2019-10-05T07:31:01Z MichaelRaskin: aeth: re: Wikipedia approach: Images with LaTeX source in alt= is not _that_ bad, is there a good accessibility solution that is actually better for MathML?
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2019-10-05T12:23:03Z decent-username: How can I create a local binding for something like (aref 1 array)?
2019-10-05T12:24:20Z decent-username: My code becomes really messy if I have to write (cell-low-max (aref cell *octant*)).
2019-10-05T12:24:32Z decent-username: Instead I would like to write (cell-low-max c)
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2019-10-05T12:30:06Z _death: you can use LET to introduce bindings..
2019-10-05T12:31:29Z heisig: decent-username: My suspicion is you want to bind the place, not the value, so that (setf c ...) works, too.  In that case, you should have a look at SYMBOL-MACROLET.
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2019-10-05T12:32:27Z decent-username: heisig: Yeah, something about macrolet was in the back of my mind
2019-10-05T12:32:47Z decent-username: Thanks for pointing me in the right direction
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2019-10-05T13:51:16Z Kabriel: aeth: in my experience numpy is very slow compared to Fortran or C. Lisp is not as fast as Fortran or C, but way faster than Python.
2019-10-05T13:51:48Z Kabriel: I have tried the lapack routines in the f2cl packages in quicklisp; they work pretty well
2019-10-05T13:52:08Z Kabriel: there is also numcl, which is a numpy clone
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2019-10-05T15:39:14Z goofist: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-05T15:39:15Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=cabf5054 will be valid until 15:45 UTC.
2019-10-05T15:44:34Z goofist: Hmm.. I have tried to register with the common-lisp.net gitlab via my github account, but cannot. First I was directed here. But when I followed the link that minion gave me and clicked github, I was directed to an error saying that my account has been blocked.
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2019-10-05T15:56:06Z goofist: In a DM with minion, i requested a second link and this time just tried to register with my email address. The registration process informed me that my address is taken. I thought that perhaps some kind of registration attempt was aborted so that my email is in the db already. So I tried to get a password reset link, and was informed by the process
2019-10-05T15:56:06Z goofist: that *if* my password exists in the database I will be sent an email. This is yet to occur. How can my email both be and not be in the database ?
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2019-10-05T16:07:33Z pjb: goofist: you asked publicly.  you must have been hacked.
2019-10-05T16:08:28Z goofist: hah
2019-10-05T16:10:13Z pjb: I don't know who manages it. Locate them, and ask them?
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2019-10-05T16:12:14Z goofist: arrrg. This is my punishment for not following through with the registration process earlier this year when I was directed to interact with the minion bot back then. I was like: ugg, how convoluted, no thank you. perhaps my registration state is still hanging from back then... sigh...
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2019-10-05T17:24:33Z aeth: MichaelRaskin: I'm not sure if there is one, but if it was widespread there probably would be one. I don't do much web stuff, though
2019-10-05T17:25:59Z aeth: Kabriel: Ah, okay, I guess there's a high python-to-numpy-to-C/Fortran overhead, then. Not surprising.
2019-10-05T17:26:10Z MichaelRaskin: Well, maths where where just a properly considered alt text is not sufficient gives an upper bound on the spread…
2019-10-05T17:26:14Z aeth: Kabriel: f2cl lapack might "work pretty well", but run disassemble on them in SBCL and they don't come close to stuff written by hand with SBCL's optimizations in mind in terms of quality of generated asm
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2019-10-05T17:29:12Z aeth: MichaelRaskin: technically speaking, every math formula is readable, like (to write some mathematical nonsense) "(a + b) / c = 42 ⇒ ε ∊ (-∞, 7]" is just "a + b over c equals 42 implies epsilon is in the range -∞ to 7 inclusive of 7" or something
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2019-10-05T17:29:51Z aeth: Now, whether or not any tool is that smart, idk, but if you provide something like MathML (or LaTeX!) it could in theory be done
2019-10-05T17:30:08Z aeth: s/over c/all over c/
2019-10-05T17:30:13Z aeth: There's a bit of ambiguity that makes this hard to read
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2019-10-05T17:32:43Z MichaelRaskin: In complicated LaTeX formula structure is sometimes sacrificed for output readability and aesthetics
2019-10-05T17:33:29Z aeth: Yes, which is why MathML would probably be better. Technically it's still "presentation MathML" but it's probably easier to parse
2019-10-05T17:33:35Z MichaelRaskin: Of course, one hopes that the maths you use _in documentation_ should not be _that_ complicated and even LaTeX might be readable
2019-10-05T17:33:46Z aeth: hah
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2019-10-05T17:33:53Z aeth: In documentation, you must prove everything that you use
2019-10-05T17:36:18Z MichaelRaskin: Starting from first-order logic and Zermelo-Fraenkel axioms?
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2019-10-05T17:46:38Z aeth: I suppose it's sufficient just to heavily cite the literature for the basics
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2019-10-05T17:51:43Z aeth: If there isn't a formal description of Common Lisp, you'd have to write it to cite it, of course.
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2019-10-05T19:30:24Z LdBeth: One frequently cited is CLtL2
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2019-10-05T19:34:42Z Bike: wrong kind of formality
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2019-10-05T19:47:23Z aeth: I'm talking more about the end part of the r7rs pdf (Scheme)
2019-10-05T19:47:31Z aeth: (which is a lot to explain for a joke)
2019-10-05T19:48:08Z aeth: chapter 7.2 starting on page 65. https://small.r7rs.org/attachment/r7rs.pdf
2019-10-05T19:48:31Z aeth: It has gems such as: E*[[ ]] =λρωκ . κ〈〉
2019-10-05T19:48:37Z Bike: stop me if you've heard this one before: The world is everything that is the case. The world is the totality of facts, n
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2019-10-05T20:01:51Z varjag: go on
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2019-10-05T22:08:23Z Tordek: is there a standard way to have a variable at a particular memory position? e.g., if I were coding for embedded and I needed "char PORTA @ 0x0024;"
2019-10-05T22:09:11Z no-defun-allowed: That's not possible in portable Common Lisp.
2019-10-05T22:09:29Z Tordek: ouch, that's what I get for not reading the channel name!
2019-10-05T22:09:41Z no-defun-allowed: With CFFI, you could probably set up a pointer and use that, however.
2019-10-05T22:10:15Z Tordek: thanks, though :P
2019-10-05T22:10:22Z no-defun-allowed: It'd go like (cffi:mem-ref (cffi:make-pointer #x24) :char)
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2019-10-05T22:50:28Z arwn: i'm writing an expert system. currently the function i call to add rules is called with this syntax: `(add-rule (rule-if a and (not b) then c)` rule-if is a macro. how would i change the syntax to drop the parentheses from (not b) and check if there is a not before a or b?
2019-10-05T22:50:59Z arwn: rule-if: https://pastebin.com/raw/2zB6CcWu
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2019-10-05T22:53:40Z no-defun-allowed: You would probably need to introduce some kind of "parser" since the position of keywords in the syntax changes now.
2019-10-05T22:54:20Z arwn: ok so i can't just hack it together.. that makes sense. I'll read up on writing a parser.
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2019-10-05T23:04:10Z Bike: well if then and c are always one thing each, it would be pretty easy to parse, b is just all elements except the outer two on each side
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2019-10-05T23:05:41Z arwn: well i'd like to have a and b be not-able
2019-10-05T23:05:49Z Bike: never mind, then.
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2019-10-06T04:33:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-06T04:36:05Z ebrasca: beach: Morning!
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2019-10-06T04:57:08Z LdBeth: good eve
2019-10-06T05:01:24Z LdBeth: So I got a book printed in 1960's, the inner pages look so new that I'm too hesitate to open and read it
2019-10-06T05:01:59Z LdBeth: what should i do
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2019-10-06T05:04:22Z ck_: LdBeth: there's only one choice. A clean room, laminar flow, high precision optics.
2019-10-06T05:10:02Z LdBeth: It seems non can be satisified :d
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2019-10-06T06:22:16Z ck_: LdBeth: only one alternative comes to mind: don your pocket protector and immerse yourself
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2019-10-06T07:30:14Z Ober: (room 1) seems to hang forever
2019-10-06T07:33:49Z Ober: probably just a slime issue
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2019-10-06T07:42:48Z adamm78: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-06T07:42:49Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=5be4c47a will be valid until 07:45 UTC.
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2019-10-06T07:53:19Z no-defun-allowed: Ober: here I get a type error.
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2019-10-06T20:01:06Z Ober: no-defun-allowed: yeah probably user issue on my part. restarting slime seems to not hang now.
2019-10-06T20:02:24Z Ober hunts for deadtrickster
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2019-10-06T21:04:02Z semz: Question about iterate: A (for VAR initially ... then ...) clause can't use PVAR from a (for PVAR previous VAR) clause in the THEN part because the clauses expand to (PROGN (SETQ PVAR VAR) (SETQ VAR ...)). Is this an undocumented gotcha or does it follow from some principle I have missed and I should have expected it?
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2019-10-06T21:12:29Z semz: "can't use" is technically wrong; "can't meaningfully use" is more like it
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2019-10-07T00:22:12Z aeth: Oh wow, that was involved. It took quite a bit to get variable support in my HTML macro. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/cl-documents/blob/ab3551f26a4bcfd1ec47532efccc45693cc247b2/generate-html.lisp#L9-47
2019-10-07T00:22:27Z aeth: I have to manually iterate the lists so it terminates one after the list end instead of at the list end.
2019-10-07T00:25:01Z aeth: Basically I assume that (code-char 0) is invalid, so when I come across a symbol that's not a keyword (i.e. a variable) then I write (code-char 0) and I push the variable-name to an internal list in write-html, which is returned at the end (in reverse order). Then I write the string, split on (code-char 0)s with calls to (write-html ,variable ...) in between the splits.
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2019-10-07T00:26:34Z aeth: So, effectively, what the macro generates is: if it's not (code-char 0) then it writes the string range up until that point and if it is, then it writes the original symbol it encountered, which is assumed to be a variable.
2019-10-07T00:28:00Z aeth: If no variables are used, then it just writes a constant string, which is going to be the most efficient. The next most efficient will be to precalculate as much as possible.
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2019-10-07T03:14:09Z lxbarbosa: one thing that I miss in Python/Golang is Lisp -p predicate vars... so clean!
2019-10-07T03:18:02Z aeth: in other languages I tend to replace that with is_ or has_, although not consistently
2019-10-07T03:19:35Z aeth: in some languages if you end with "p" people might think you're talking about pointers
2019-10-07T03:20:35Z aeth: I generally prefer suffixes to prefixes because then they don't affect an alphabetical sort
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2019-10-07T03:33:19Z lxbarbosa: aeth: yep, Ive tried that, but someone said it aint pythonic :D
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2019-10-07T03:51:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hi
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2019-10-07T04:08:53Z no-defun-allowed: lxbarbosa: "not pythonic" should be treated as a compliment.
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2019-10-07T04:09:06Z lxbarbosa: no-defun-allowed: lol
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2019-10-07T04:44:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-07T04:44:56Z Josh_2: Mornin'
2019-10-07T04:45:11Z LdBeth: Good eve
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2019-10-07T04:51:56Z Josh_2: Trying to convince a permanent C++ user to try out CL
2019-10-07T04:53:00Z Josh_2: I don't get why people are so caught up about the syntax
2019-10-07T04:54:46Z no-defun-allowed: It's probably an excuse for something else, especially with their type<T<T2> > shenanigans.
2019-10-07T04:54:49Z beach: Josh_2: If that is what you are being told, I think the person is giving you an excuse that just isn't true.
2019-10-07T04:55:07Z Josh_2: Well one person has said they will try
2019-10-07T04:55:17Z beach: Josh_2: There are very strong psychological forces at work that make people resist anything new.
2019-10-07T04:55:48Z beach: Josh_2: So their subconscious will come up with any excuse to avoid the new thing.
2019-10-07T04:55:54Z Josh_2: Cognitive dissonance oof
2019-10-07T04:56:05Z beach: Josh_2: They are typically not even aware that this is what they are doing.
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2019-10-07T04:57:07Z beach: Josh_2: Some bad cases will come up with ridicule such as "only bald people use Lisp".
2019-10-07T04:58:02Z beach: Josh_2: In general, I recommend that you avoid trying to convince people.  It is usually a waste of time.
2019-10-07T04:58:06Z no-defun-allowed: Wait, what‽
2019-10-07T04:58:50Z no-defun-allowed: beach: "Bald people" is a new one to me. I've heard about beard length before though.
2019-10-07T04:59:20Z beach: It is what I could come up with, given that I haven't finished my coffee yet.
2019-10-07T04:59:29Z Josh_2: I don't know about not trying to convince people
2019-10-07T04:59:39Z beach: Besides, beard length could be a sign of wisdom.
2019-10-07T04:59:48Z no-defun-allowed: Fair enough, I was worried that was real.
2019-10-07T04:59:56Z Josh_2: i'd rather try ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I think CL is cool and I reckon others will
2019-10-07T05:00:26Z beach: Josh_2: Highly unlikely if they are just being told about it.
2019-10-07T05:00:51Z beach: Josh_2: The only thing I have found to work is to show real result from very productive work.
2019-10-07T05:01:10Z no-defun-allowed: (For example, http://i.imgur.com/HLp8z11.jpg for GNU/Linux distributions. I think beards are just a general computer science thing.)
2019-10-07T05:01:27Z Josh_2: My beard must be very long oof
2019-10-07T05:03:36Z beach: All I am saying is that the worst offenders, i.e. the ones with the "closest mind set" (terminology by Carol Dweck), will go to any length to convince their entourage NOT try anything new.  Ridicule is one such tactic.  And those worst offenders are often "alpha males", so they have great influence on others.
2019-10-07T05:04:02Z Josh_2: Absolute chads
2019-10-07T05:04:31Z no-defun-allowed: Back to the point, people have excuses and you might be more productive working on your own stuff. Then you can show them, then they might be convinced, else you can laugh at them in your head for willingly wasting their own resources.
2019-10-07T05:04:32Z Josh_2: can't say I've met many brogrammers
2019-10-07T05:04:53Z no-defun-allowed: You should try a mirror.
2019-10-07T05:05:04Z Josh_2: Well I wasn't gonna say that was I
2019-10-07T05:05:07Z Josh_2: ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ
2019-10-07T05:08:18Z beach: Josh_2: I recommend the writings (and YouTube presentations) by Carol Dweck.  Once you understand the psychological forces involved, perhaps you can also understand how to work around them.
2019-10-07T05:13:58Z Josh_2: She seems very self helpy and I'm not so into that crowd
2019-10-07T05:14:04Z Josh_2: It's quite the industry
2019-10-07T05:14:26Z Josh_2: see, i'm doing it oof
2019-10-07T05:16:16Z beach: No, she is a researcher.
2019-10-07T05:16:49Z Josh_2: alrighty well I'll watch some more
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2019-10-07T05:28:00Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Dweck
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2019-10-07T08:00:54Z jackdaniel: I'm definetely not bald, I have longer hair than my wife :)
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2019-10-07T08:03:26Z semz: "Nobody else has ever been able to replicate it" is a pretty big issue...
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2019-10-07T08:09:51Z beach: semz: There is independent research that suggests that expertise requires hard work.  I recommend a book entitled "peak" by Anders Ericsson.
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2019-10-07T08:10:43Z beach: Note, though, the direction of the implication arrow.  Hard work does not necessarily result in expertise, as we often see in the domain of software development.
2019-10-07T08:12:09Z ralt: no, but the reverse is usually true: expertise requires hard work
2019-10-07T08:12:25Z beach: That's what I just said.
2019-10-07T08:12:30Z ralt: which I guess is...
2019-10-07T08:12:32Z ralt: yeah, that :)
2019-10-07T08:12:56Z ralt: it's monday morning
2019-10-07T08:13:06Z beach: I know.
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2019-10-07T08:14:21Z schweers: So the question might be: how do we prevent people from doing hard work which does not result in, or otherwise further, expertise?
2019-10-07T08:15:01Z beach: That is indeed *the* question.
2019-10-07T08:18:25Z White_Flame: I tend to have a positive view of apprenticeship
2019-10-07T08:18:30Z beach: jackdaniel: The baldness thing was an example of how preposterous the claims of these closed-minded people might be, and how they will do anything (including ridicule) to avoid learning new things.  And you are a good example of how preposterous that claim is.
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2019-10-07T08:18:42Z White_Flame: you're not just doing work, but working with somebody, seeing a direct example of how they benefit from the work and tune it to positive effects
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2019-10-07T08:21:52Z White_Flame: also I have 2 beards, that makes me double something
2019-10-07T08:22:54Z jackdaniel: beach: there are many rude people whose behavior doesn't need to be explained with complicated theories, I'm sure that if they have no problem with saying "only bald people use lisp" then leaving lisp of it and saying "bald people are <whatever>" is as likely if they do not like the person in question (and 'baldness' could be replaced by any visible trait of said person)
2019-10-07T08:24:15Z beach: jackdaniel: That's true too.
2019-10-07T08:25:22Z shka__: only bald people use lisp? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI
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2019-10-07T08:30:50Z schweers: I have a quick lisp question.  I have a pathname object and want to construct a new one based on it.  In UNIX I’d just append "../somedir" to get the directory part.  What is the most portable (both concerning lisp implementations and OSes) way of doing so?  Using a "/" character is obviously not the best move here.  I could use nested MERGE-PATHNAMES, but that just seems wrong and overblown.  Is using '(".." "somedir")
2019-10-07T08:30:50Z schweers: part portable?
2019-10-07T08:32:59Z schweers: I guess I’m mostly worried about ".." being a unixism.
2019-10-07T08:33:39Z Shinmera: pathname-utils has a bunch of tested functions to help with that stuff.
2019-10-07T08:33:57Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell schweers look up pathname-utils
2019-10-07T08:33:57Z Colleen: schweers: About pathname-utils https://shinmera.github.io/pathname-utils#about_pathname-utils
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2019-10-07T08:37:27Z Shinmera: Feel free to copy-paste what you need from the sources if you don't want the dep.
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2019-10-07T08:37:54Z schweers: Shinmera: Thanks.  I just took a look at the code and found out that :up can be a directory part.  I guess this alone solves my problem.
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2019-10-07T08:43:38Z Cymew: What are the depenencies anyway?
2019-10-07T08:47:46Z schweers: Cymew: in case you meant pathname-utils, the library itself would be a dependency.
2019-10-07T08:49:42Z ralt: I think what you'd want is something like (defun merge (orig &rest pathnames) (reduce #'merge-pathnames pathnames :initial-value orig))
2019-10-07T08:50:48Z schweers: ralt: that wouldn’t have saved me from the issue of ".." being a unixism.
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2019-10-07T08:51:03Z schweers: Not that my code will ever run on anything other than linux ...
2019-10-07T08:52:04Z ralt: ah, right, pathname-utils provides the PARENT function for that then
2019-10-07T08:52:30Z schweers: which in turn taught me about the existence of the :UP part of a directory.
2019-10-07T09:01:33Z thijso: I find that is often a good way to learn things... read other code
2019-10-07T09:02:13Z thijso: although you might pick up some less ideal things if you look at code that doesn't follow conventions etc
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2019-10-07T09:04:03Z saturn2: which open source lisp projects have the most ideal code?
2019-10-07T09:04:30Z jackdaniel: (print "Hello world") ; bsd-2-clause
2019-10-07T09:04:32Z jackdaniel: ↑
2019-10-07T09:04:49Z saturn2: thanks, i will study this
2019-10-07T09:05:02Z Shinmera: That's not ideal, the print isn't necessary!
2019-10-07T09:05:15Z jackdaniel: I'm aiming at the standard-output
2019-10-07T09:05:26Z jackdaniel: if there were no print I would have no guarantee that anything appears on the screen
2019-10-07T09:05:43Z Shinmera: you don't have that guarantee anyway, the standard doesn't specify screens ;)
2019-10-07T09:06:09Z jackdaniel: sure, still putting just a string would be less ideal, by screen I've meant 'standard output' of course :)
2019-10-07T09:08:05Z beach: saturn2: What meaning do you put into "ideal" in this context?
2019-10-07T09:09:25Z saturn2: whatever your own opinion is
2019-10-07T09:10:33Z beach: I suggest you look at Eclector then.
2019-10-07T09:10:53Z beach: It is easy to understand what it does (it is the Common Lisp READ function with extensions).
2019-10-07T09:11:12Z beach: It is a good example of Common Lisp object-oriented programming using CLOS.
2019-10-07T09:11:20Z beach: It is well tested and well documented.
2019-10-07T09:11:44Z beach: And it is written so that clients can customize its behavior.
2019-10-07T09:11:55Z saturn2: ok, thanks
2019-10-07T09:12:17Z schweers: Thank you duckduckgo for telling me about some spaceship in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, before telling me about the lisp project :D
2019-10-07T09:21:57Z beach: saturn2: And it is actively developed and maintained, so you can ask questions about it.  Either here or in #sicl.
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2019-10-07T09:49:50Z shka__: saturn2: if you are looking for a style to imitate, beach writes cleanest code
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2019-10-07T11:01:30Z Cymew: schweers: Ah, I see.
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2019-10-07T12:17:57Z lxbarbosa: I did know that Reddit was written in Lisp before switching to Python then to React... :d
2019-10-07T12:17:58Z lxbarbosa:  
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2019-10-07T13:25:07Z decent-username: Good morning. I'm pretty close to finishing the Line Of Sight algorithm for my rogue like. Right now I have a 2D array that cotains objects of typr 'cell which encapsulate things like "is this cell visible". My question is: How can I change the printed representation of an object?
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2019-10-07T13:25:28Z Bike: define a print-object method specialized on the cell class.
2019-10-07T13:25:40Z Bike: clhs print-object
2019-10-07T13:25:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm
2019-10-07T13:26:20Z decent-username: ok, let's hope that allows me to use the slots of the object in the name.
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2019-10-07T13:27:45Z decent-username: *for the printed representation
2019-10-07T13:35:12Z Bike: assuming you have some way to get the slots, sure why not
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2019-10-07T13:55:15Z White_Flame: it's a plain function, you could look up stuff in external tables as well; it doesn't need to be self-contained on the object itself, if it's easier for you to manage differences there
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2019-10-07T14:01:46Z blindglobe: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-07T14:01:47Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=7cebaac8 will be valid until 14:15 UTC.
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2019-10-07T18:16:46Z vms14: guys do you use template libraries in lisp?
2019-10-07T18:16:52Z vms14: I see https://github.com/Shinmera/clip
2019-10-07T18:17:07Z vms14: doyou have someone you recommend or like?
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2019-10-07T18:18:42Z dlowe: I use stencl but it's kind of an acquired taste
2019-10-07T18:19:31Z dlowe: sorry, not an easy google search to find - https://github.com/dlowe-net/stencl
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2019-10-07T18:23:36Z vms14: I'm looking at spinneret
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2019-10-07T18:24:47Z vms14: It seems to be better to just have lisp code
2019-10-07T18:25:29Z vms14: https://www.cliki.net/HTML%20template
2019-10-07T18:25:57Z dlowe: sometimes.
2019-10-07T18:27:17Z vms14: dlowe: why would be better to have html with some way for lisp code interpolation, instead of stuff like cl-who which are directly lisp code?
2019-10-07T18:28:03Z vms14: it seems at first time html would be better, but maybe letter you'd be happier with a more lispy solution
2019-10-07T18:28:18Z vms14: s/letterl/later
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2019-10-07T18:30:37Z dlowe: vms14: if you are working with a web design team, they will not use the lispy solution that you claim is superior
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2019-10-07T18:31:24Z Xach: I use html-template and cl-who together, but I bet there are newer, nicer options for both sides.
2019-10-07T18:31:25Z vms14: dlowe: I'm not really claiming, this is why I ask
2019-10-07T18:31:41Z vms14: I'm not able to see the good and the bad those options have
2019-10-07T18:32:03Z vms14: and yes, you pointed one bad thing that's very important
2019-10-07T18:32:29Z vms14: but isn't very hard to (:h1 "hi")
2019-10-07T18:33:33Z vms14: Xach which newer/nicer?
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2019-10-07T18:33:45Z Xach: vms14: I don't know, I use the old stuff and am ignorant of the new.
2019-10-07T18:33:57Z vms14: someone told me he prefers another html generator than cl-who
2019-10-07T18:34:14Z vms14: but I don't remember which one
2019-10-07T18:34:24Z Shinmera: This may be very surprising, but I do use clip
2019-10-07T18:34:30Z vms14: xD
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2019-10-07T18:34:51Z Xach: I don't like cl-who much, but i am familiar with it.
2019-10-07T18:35:21Z vms14: what's what you don't like of cl-who?
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2019-10-07T18:37:24Z edgar-rft: cl-who sounds like the World Health Organisation for Common Lisp
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2019-10-07T18:38:06Z vms14: https://www.cliki.net/cl-markup
2019-10-07T18:38:45Z Xach: vms14: the evaluation rules have to be memorized and internalized if you want to use it effectively. they are not too complicated but you *must* know them by heart or you will get confused.
2019-10-07T18:38:48Z LdBeth: I thought it is a CL version of unix who command
2019-10-07T18:39:03Z Xach: LdBeth: NO
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2019-10-07T18:48:13Z dlowe: you can be forgiven for thinking so :p
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2019-10-07T18:49:15Z Shinmera: if I remember correctly even Edi recommended against using cl-who
2019-10-07T18:49:21Z Ober: and R Kelly has nothing to do with sexp?
2019-10-07T18:51:24Z pjb: vms14: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/html-generator/html-generators-in-lisp.txt
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2019-10-07T18:52:47Z vms14: pjb: ty
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2019-10-07T18:58:14Z jmercouris: Ober: sexp are S-EXPRESSIONS, the syntax of LISP
2019-10-07T18:58:33Z jmercouris: Ober: you can read more about them here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression
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2019-10-07T19:42:25Z vms14: what about macro-html?
2019-10-07T19:42:29Z vms14: https://mr.gy/software/macro-html/manual.html
2019-10-07T19:43:02Z vms14: macro-html depends on named-readtables and shadows map and time as those symbols collide with HTML element names
2019-10-07T19:44:53Z vms14: oh, does not support html5 tags
2019-10-07T19:45:07Z aeth: cl-who afaik walks through all of your source code within the macro and substitutes anything inside (htm ...) with the appropriate transformations to string writing functions... so it's possibly the most efficient approach, but I personally hate when there's magic like that.
2019-10-07T19:45:09Z dlowe: I think you will get an unambiguous, reliable answer by trying them
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2019-10-07T19:45:38Z aeth: Having to hardcode HTML tags doesn't seem like a robust approach because, as I said, it's a "living standard" so now you have to constantly update your library. You do have to hardcode what the empty elements like <br> are, though.
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2019-10-07T19:46:04Z aeth: s/as I said/as I said the other day/
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2019-10-07T19:47:15Z aeth: It seems really weird to define a macro for every html element instead of just using keywords and handling it with one macro like (with-html (stream) (:foo 42)) and, as you noticed, it does have potential name conflicts
2019-10-07T19:47:42Z vms14: aeth: use capture s/(as I said)/$1 the other day/
2019-10-07T19:47:43Z vms14: xD
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2019-10-07T19:48:28Z aeth: and when you have each thing be its own macro, you have to do something like rely on rebinding *standard-output* like that library does, I guess. Because it'd be really inconvenient to have to pass in a stream to every BR
2019-10-07T19:48:31Z vms14: aeth: should be simple to let the user add tags and even change them
2019-10-07T19:48:43Z vms14: by providing access to a list where the tags lie
2019-10-07T19:48:47Z vms14: live*
2019-10-07T19:49:16Z vms14: there is a html generator library that does this?
2019-10-07T19:49:21Z aeth: vms14: you don't need to know about any tags to write HTML except for the empty elements like <br>
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2019-10-07T19:50:22Z vms14: yes you can put just <tag></tag> and don't know what the tag does or if exists
2019-10-07T19:51:18Z aeth: vms14: if you don't know that the tag exists, and if you do it in one big keyword macro instead of namespacing each tag in macros (or function calls or w/e) that have to know each tag... then, yes, if it's unknown it's just <tag>...</tag>
2019-10-07T19:51:22Z vms14: but if you're making a library for doing this, better if we provide access or a way to add tags
2019-10-07T19:51:42Z vms14: because macro-html provides some html5 tags, but isn't providing main
2019-10-07T19:53:27Z vms14: if you write a big macro then you need to provide a way to put stuff inside <tag > like :src "url"
2019-10-07T19:54:03Z aeth: vms14: that's easy
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2019-10-07T19:55:03Z aeth: there are two syntaxes that work... (:tag :src "url" "foobar") and (:tag (:src "url") "foobar) where in the former case you iterate until you no longer get a keyword-and-value pair and that's the end of the attributes and in the latter case you always have an attributes list after every tag (more regular, but also means your code will probably be full of ()s)
2019-10-07T19:55:15Z aeth: s/"foobar)/"foobar")/
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2019-10-07T19:58:57Z aeth: vms14: The reason you need to know about empty elements is because (1) they close like <foo> or <foo /> depending on the style and not <foo> </foo> and (2) you want there to be an error if there's a body and not just attributes
2019-10-07T19:59:30Z aeth: For all I know, in XML <foo /> and <foo> </foo> are interchangable, but HTML is not that kind.
2019-10-07T19:59:46Z vms14: then maintain one list with those tags
2019-10-07T19:59:54Z aeth: eh
2019-10-07T19:59:57Z vms14: so you can push stuff in this list
2019-10-07T20:00:16Z aeth: The lazy approach that you'd probably see in 95% of libraries that do this is to use a list.
2019-10-07T20:00:19Z vms14: the tags you need to care
2019-10-07T20:00:31Z vms14: how would you do it then?
2019-10-07T20:00:53Z aeth: What you should probably do, though, is you should probably use a member type, and for user configuration, also check a predicate function (perhaps an overridable method that by default turns nil? or maybe even just put it as a satisfies type)
2019-10-07T20:01:19Z aeth: vms14: so (or (typep foo 'empty-element) (custom-empty-element-p foo))
2019-10-07T20:01:59Z aeth: a higher order function could also work, but that makes the macro much messier if you need to override it so maybe just a method that always returns nil and letting the user do :after will be the best approach
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2019-10-07T20:24:10Z vms14: it is good style to make a closure to have two or more functions sharing "local" variables
2019-10-07T20:24:11Z vms14: ?
2019-10-07T20:25:31Z vms14: I have a *buffer* global variable but I have other functions that would need two different buffers
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2019-10-07T20:26:52Z vms14: should I change it locally, since it's special, or make a closure returning those functions, or what would be a good way?
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2019-10-07T20:33:51Z Xach: vms14: need more context
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2019-10-07T20:36:15Z vms14: Xach yes, sorry. In my context I guess what I really need is local stuff inside a function
2019-10-07T20:36:30Z vms14: just (let stuff)
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2019-10-07T20:55:48Z aeth: vms14: You can wrap a DEFUN in a LET, but that makes it no longer top level so macros that generate DEFUNs might not work properly (since those tend to assume they're at the top level, so they could do e.g. "(progn (declaim (inline foo)) (defun foo ..." since PROGN does keep functions at top level)
2019-10-07T20:57:58Z aeth: vms14: i.e. (let ((variable 42)) (defun foo () variable) (defun (setf foo) (value) (setf variable value))) (format t "~A~%" (foo)) (setf (foo) 1) (format t "~A~%" (foo)) ; prints 42 and then prints 1
2019-10-07T20:58:06Z vms14: I'm not thinking in macros
2019-10-07T20:58:14Z vms14: just a function that reads a list
2019-10-07T20:58:29Z vms14: with a typecase
2019-10-07T20:59:17Z vms14: would any function inherit a local variable in the calling context?
2019-10-07T21:00:00Z aeth: Are you asking if variable in my example would be accessible outside of those two functions? No, because it's lexically scoped and it's effectively creating a closure, just a global one, not one that you're used to seeing
2019-10-07T21:00:09Z vms14: (let ((oh 3))(function))
2019-10-07T21:00:20Z vms14: and function printing oh
2019-10-07T21:00:42Z jasom: vms14: that won't work unless oh is declared special (which seems unlikely given its name)
2019-10-07T21:00:59Z aeth: vms14: Lexical closures are afaik the only true way of encapsulation in CL (besides messing with symbols or the MOP or something)
2019-10-07T21:01:02Z jasom: vms14: lexical bindings affect only the code inside the let.
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2019-10-07T21:01:23Z aeth: vms14: Your example oh will probably be optimized away into nothing since it's unused
2019-10-07T21:02:37Z jasom: vms14: I *think* you want something like (let ((*buffer* FOO)) (some-function)) (let ((*buffer* BAR)) (some-function)) but I may be misunderstanding your question; perhaps pastebin some code?
2019-10-07T21:03:35Z vms14:  (defparameter *oh* nil) (let ((*oh* 3))(function))
2019-10-07T21:04:05Z aeth: vms14: is (function) a call to FUNCTION or is it a shortcut for (defun function ...) in your notation?
2019-10-07T21:04:18Z vms14: but wasn't this related with "variable capture" in macros?
2019-10-07T21:04:48Z vms14: aeth: is a name of a defined function using *oh*
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2019-10-07T21:05:48Z aeth: vms14: the issue with macros is if you did `(let ((oh nil)) ...) in a macro. Then anyone who knows the variable "oh" could access it, and anyone who used the variable "oh" outside of the macro would unexpectedly get their variable overridden inside of the macro, so you gensym instead of directly binding a let, if you have a ,@body (you don't always make macros like that)
2019-10-07T21:06:02Z aeth: vms14: afaik, your question has nothing to do with that
2019-10-07T21:07:20Z aeth: vms14: The thing about *oh* is called dynamic scoping, and it's a separate thing. Basically, (let ((*oh* 42)) (foo)) will replace *oh* in (foo) and all of its callers with the local 42 instead of the global (whatever it is). So it's a separate, special scoping rule that's probably implemented as a stack or at least can be thought of as a stack.
2019-10-07T21:07:29Z vms14: so with recursion a function using let with a special variable and calling other functions that use this variable the function will preserve all the *stuff* values in a recursive way
2019-10-07T21:08:44Z aeth: vms14: I see what you're probably trying to do. You're probably trying to build up a list in a bunch of recursive calls, but you can't just pass in the list because push will only modify the local binding. So (push 42 *oh*) will keep building the list while (push 42 oh) will not. Is that correct?
2019-10-07T21:09:12Z vms14: aeth: sorry to share my code but this is what I'm doing
2019-10-07T21:09:15Z vms14: you'll cry
2019-10-07T21:09:38Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/zyQqvnJqPV/
2019-10-07T21:10:38Z aeth: I love how that pastebin tries to get me to login to download the text. Easily the worse pastebin for that that I've seen. At least I can just copy and paste it into emacs.
2019-10-07T21:10:55Z vms14: I want to make :keywords process as tag attributes and symbols as tags
2019-10-07T21:11:08Z vms14: aeth: I use nopaste
2019-10-07T21:11:12Z vms14: is written in perl
2019-10-07T21:11:16Z vms14: cpan App::Nopaste
2019-10-07T21:11:28Z jackdaniel: I use a small shell script on top of scp
2019-10-07T21:11:29Z vms14: it's*
2019-10-07T21:11:42Z vms14: nopaste supports a lot of services
2019-10-07T21:11:42Z jackdaniel: i.e I call `hellpost foobar.lisp' from the command line
2019-10-07T21:11:48Z vms14: even github gists
2019-10-07T21:12:10Z aeth: vms14: I just did the exact same thing, actually
2019-10-07T21:12:26Z vms14: I have a function in emacs so I press C-c n and asks for a file
2019-10-07T21:12:27Z aeth: vms14: well, roughly the same thing
2019-10-07T21:12:36Z vms14: uses nopaste and writes in the buffer the link
2019-10-07T21:12:49Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/qkQ9NjZr7D/
2019-10-07T21:13:09Z aeth: vms14: here's how I generate HTML: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/cl-documents/blob/873268445cd2508e59ada0eb651e0c78d42b68d8/generate-html.lisp https://gitlab.com/mbabich/cl-documents/blob/873268445cd2508e59ada0eb651e0c78d42b68d8/write-html.lisp
2019-10-07T21:14:23Z aeth: vms14: you don't need to work with buffers at all, you can just work with streams and model it like a write function, e.g. (write-string "foo" some-stream)
2019-10-07T21:14:49Z vms14: yes my code sucks and the whole idea is wrong I guess
2019-10-07T21:15:37Z aeth: vms14: What I do is I write to a string stream at compile time, unless there's some special feature, and if there's a special feature, then I write (code char 0) and push that special feature to something that ultimately gets returned so that I can handle it elsewhere.
2019-10-07T21:16:12Z aeth: It's... kind of involved to do it efficiently, but not too hard to do it naively (since all that "unless there's..." can just be ignored)
2019-10-07T21:16:27Z vms14: my idea was to maintain two buffers, one for tag attributes and another for the output buffer
2019-10-07T21:17:32Z aeth: for output, just always pass in a stream argument and write to that stream. Technically, using a UTF-8 stream via babel would probably be more efficient than writing to a string that ultimately becomes UTF-8 at some later point, but efficiency isn't the most important thing if you just need to get it to run
2019-10-07T21:17:43Z aeth: I'm not sure why you need to track tag attributes at all?
2019-10-07T21:18:08Z vms14: because the implementation sucks
2019-10-07T21:18:27Z vms14: I want to make symbols work as tag names
2019-10-07T21:18:35Z vms14: keywords as attributes
2019-10-07T21:18:56Z vms14: ('img :src "url")
2019-10-07T21:18:58Z aeth: (format stream "<~A" (string-downcase (symbol-name tag)))
2019-10-07T21:19:35Z aeth: you'll want '(img :src "url") or if in a macro just (img :src "url") because the macro will implicitly quote it and you'll want the whole thing quoted
2019-10-07T21:19:46Z vms14: I prefer (setf *print-case* :downcase)
2019-10-07T21:19:55Z aeth: Don't do that
2019-10-07T21:20:00Z aeth: that changes it for everyone forever
2019-10-07T21:20:08Z aeth: (let ((*print-case* :downcase)) ...) can work
2019-10-07T21:20:28Z vms14: ok
2019-10-07T21:20:44Z aeth: I mean, I normally do (setf *print-case* :downcase) in the REPL when I'm doing a lot of macroexpand so I can actually read the macros
2019-10-07T21:20:52Z aeth: I just can't assume that the user wants that or has that
2019-10-07T21:21:16Z vms14: I'd prefer if the repl does not scream me
2019-10-07T21:21:33Z vms14: so downcase would be nice to have as default
2019-10-07T21:22:01Z vms14: but yes, is a good advice to change it locally
2019-10-07T21:22:15Z vms14: I'll do it
2019-10-07T21:24:20Z aeth: vms14: You shouldn't be doing FORMAT *buffer*, though. You really want to only work with streams, and then when you call it, in the caller, do (with-output-to-string (output) (process-html-list list output))
2019-10-07T21:24:43Z vms14: I prefer to work with char arrays
2019-10-07T21:25:06Z vms14: format does work with fill pointer adjustable arrays
2019-10-07T21:25:08Z aeth: Even if buffer is more efficient for format, (1) being a special variable instead of a lexical variable is probably going to kill absolutely all of the efficiency gains (and it doesn't even know if it's a buffer or a stream or the symbol nil) and (2) it makes it much harder and less abstract for this particular problem
2019-10-07T21:25:26Z aeth: and plus (3) it's harder for this sort of problem
2019-10-07T21:25:38Z aeth: If you must do this, though, pass it in as an argument to everything
2019-10-07T21:26:03Z vms14: a keyword argument with a default value
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2019-10-07T21:26:57Z aeth: You don't want a default value here because you're going to be using it for its side effect, recursively. If you want to add a default value, write a wrapper function where it's optional instead of making it be optional everywhere
2019-10-07T21:27:20Z vms14: I didn't know fill pointer adjustable arrays were faster than streams for format
2019-10-07T21:27:24Z aeth: You want to keep things as simple as possible. Nice to have features can be added later.
2019-10-07T21:27:32Z aeth: vms14: I don't know if they're faster or not.
2019-10-07T21:28:42Z vms14: are streams "faster" than arrays?
2019-10-07T21:29:08Z Shinmera: Phew, me and my two friends finished our Ludum Dare game jam entry just now! Three days to make a game, and of course we used lisp. https://ldjam.com/events/ludum-dare/45/outsider
2019-10-07T21:30:51Z aeth: vms14: Arrays can be faster, but if you wanted to really use arrays to their full potential you would have to do some really strange things. First, you'd have to give it a maximum size so there's no bounds checking. Second, you'd want to directly write UTF-8 bytes instead of characters to strings. Third, you'd have to use DECLARE on every function. This isn't really worth it unless you need the performance.
2019-10-07T21:31:34Z vms14: unless you improve my shit (make-text-buffer) function
2019-10-07T21:31:36Z aeth: And after all that I'm not sure it would actually be that much faster, since you'd have to use something like babel instead of the implementation's potentially very optimized character writer. It would use less memory, though
2019-10-07T21:31:57Z vms14: (defun make-text-buffer () (make-array 0 :adjustable t :fill-pointer t :element-type 'character))
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2019-10-07T21:32:43Z aeth: vms14: Anyway, as long as you only use FORMAT, your buffer code should be identical to stream-using code because there's no difference at all (unless you wanted to enforce your choice of using a buffer via a type check or type declaration)
2019-10-07T21:32:54Z aeth: Since the buffer goes into the stream spot
2019-10-07T21:33:28Z aeth: You might want to check that it's not NIL, though, since format nil will only work as expected on one FORMAT statement.
2019-10-07T21:33:52Z aeth: (although technically speaking you could do it in one format statement and use ~/foo/ to do your recursion, unless that's disallowed by FORMAT)
2019-10-07T21:37:11Z aeth: vms14: start small and grow it
2019-10-07T21:37:42Z vms14: that's how everything is done
2019-10-07T21:37:59Z vms14: starting small
2019-10-07T21:38:03Z aeth: vms14: (defun foo (list &optional (format-destination *standard-output*)) (format format-destination "~A~%" list)) (foo (list 1 2 3))
2019-10-07T21:39:01Z aeth: vms14: That basic form will give you something that will work with anything that format works with (except NIL as soon as you have more than one FORMAT, so maybe check for that and error) and if the user doesn't provide anything, then it just goes to *standard-output*, which can be rebound locally since it's a special (dynamic) variable
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2019-10-07T21:41:23Z aeth: vms14: The next thing that you should do is that you should change your syntax. (foo :bar 42 "Hello!") is actually really difficult and advanced because you have to parse it to know where the plist ends and the body begins. Try using (foo (:bar 42) "Hello!") instead. This syntax is regular. Then, if you come across a list you can parse it with destructuring-bind.
2019-10-07T21:41:48Z aeth: vms14: That syntax is then just (destructuring-bind (tag attribute-plist &body body) ...)
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2019-10-07T21:42:39Z aeth: vms14: Then you can handle attributes as their own special case and call them with (process-html-attributes list format-destination) without having to worry about process-html-list having to know at all about attributes
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2019-10-07T21:44:24Z aeth: vms14: If you want to have tiny little functions for everything in parse-html-list, you can use FLET and put them at the top of PROCESS-HTML-LIST and then you don't have to pass format-destination and you don't have to make a global *buffer* because it's creating a closure. So (flet ((start-tag (tag) (format format-destination "<~a" tag)) ...
2019-10-07T21:45:02Z vms14: I always wanted something like (title :color red "hi")
2019-10-07T21:45:38Z vms14: that writes to <head> a <title>hi</title> tag and also a <h1>hi</h1> in body
2019-10-07T21:45:55Z vms14: the problem is mixing css while not wanting to put dirty inline styles
2019-10-07T21:46:06Z aeth: vms14: This is what is required to do (title :color red "hi") instead of (title (:color red) "hi) : https://gitlab.com/mbabich/cl-documents/blob/873268445cd2508e59ada0eb651e0c78d42b68d8/write-html.lisp#L26-69
2019-10-07T21:46:17Z vms14: so for :color red I should have a class .red and create it if not exists
2019-10-07T21:46:50Z vms14: and put a class="red" in this tag
2019-10-07T21:47:11Z aeth: vms14: That's the wrong thing to think about at this point. At this point you want a direct representation of HTML in s-expressions translated directly to an HTML string (or character buffer)
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2019-10-07T21:47:29Z aeth: vms14: Once it's in s-expressions, you can preprocess it using list processing stuff later on as an earlier stage in your generation
2019-10-07T21:47:36Z vms14: aeth: yes, this is what really made me stop
2019-10-07T21:47:48Z vms14: I shouldn't care about this and just use inline style
2019-10-07T21:48:00Z aeth: vms14: the only thing special I do is insert "<!DOCTYPE html>" in front of "<html>" when that tag comes up because it's kind of important not to leave out
2019-10-07T21:48:10Z aeth: everything else can be added by another stage
2019-10-07T21:48:13Z vms14: but the right thing I think is to have classes
2019-10-07T21:49:52Z aeth: vms14: You are writing a function that writes HTML strings when given HTML in s-expression form, so that's all it should do (I kind of break this rule myself to allow support for some very simple things, but that's mainly because I couldn't find a better way to do it)
2019-10-07T21:50:08Z aeth: vms14: So you shouldn't be thinking about "so for :color red I should have a class .red and create it if not exists"
2019-10-07T21:50:20Z aeth: That can be done in another pass, before you pass the list to the writer
2019-10-07T21:50:36Z vms14: well, the end goal would be to even put js
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2019-10-07T21:50:47Z vms14: I'd want to have a lisp language for the web
2019-10-07T21:51:29Z aeth: vms14: Yes, but you will probably never finish if you make your functions do too many things at once... if you make them too smart.
2019-10-07T21:51:37Z vms14: it needs to transpile css js and html
2019-10-07T21:52:28Z vms14: but lisp could represent css and html in a better way than those "languages" do
2019-10-07T21:52:39Z vms14: not me, but a lisper could
2019-10-07T21:52:52Z aeth: vms14: JS is much harder than the rest, and isn't really critical for the basic task, so you should ignore that for now. And when you do write JS, you should write JS in a direct s-expression representation of JS, rather than trying to do anything fancy, because it's much easier to do fancy things as s-expression->s-expression
2019-10-07T21:55:40Z Ober: thanks jmechier
2019-10-07T21:56:56Z aeth: vms14: Anyway, no matter how much you hate the source language and think that it can be improved upon, you can't do that in the function that calls FORMAT because then you'll add too much logic by the time you're done. What you'll want to eventually do is (generate-html (c (b (a your-awesome-language))) buffer)
2019-10-07T21:59:40Z aeth: You're essentially doing a multi-pass compiler
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2019-10-07T22:02:05Z vms14: the problem is the only way to have a lisp language instead of html+css is making a transpiler
2019-10-07T22:02:29Z vms14: I think sexp would be better than both
2019-10-07T22:04:50Z aeth: vms14: Yes, but you were looking at the s-expression problem incorrectly. If you use the syntax (foo (:bar 42) "Hello!") then there are only two cases at the top level. Either it is a list or it is not a list. If it is not a list, then it's in the body and should be an escaped string (to escape stuff like <). If it is in a list, then it has the regular structure (destructuring-bind (tag attribute-plist &body body) item ...)
2019-10-07T22:05:11Z aeth: and in the later case, you recursively call on every item in body
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2019-10-07T22:06:05Z aeth: In all recursive calls, pass format-destination even though you want to make it a keyword argument and optional for the caller. Then, you don't need *buffer* as a global, since buffer is passed each time
2019-10-07T22:07:56Z vms14: then how would be your syntax for a lisp language like (title "hi" :color "red" :onclick #'dosomething)
2019-10-07T22:10:07Z aeth: vms14: That's a separate problem. There, you turn (title "hi" :color "red" :onclick #'dosomething) into (title (:color "red" :onclick "dosomething()") "hi") which is regular and simple and known, and can then be written by the writing function that I described
2019-10-07T22:10:32Z aeth: or whatever it takes to make it valid HTML
2019-10-07T22:11:27Z aeth: you would probably have to parse a mini-language, like the LOOP macro
2019-10-07T22:11:34Z vms14: yes. it's much easier to handle with a list for optional "attributes"
2019-10-07T22:16:47Z aeth: vms14: you don't even need to do the writing function if what you really want to do is the fancy part, since the writing function has been done a dozen times before (sometimes with the syntax (:foo :key "value" "body1" "body2") and sometimes with the syntax (:foo (:key "value") "body1" "body2") and sometimes with other syntax, but none of that matters if you're processing it anyway)
2019-10-07T22:17:47Z aeth: the writing part isn't as easy as it seems because you have to escape <, >, and &, and if in an attribute you also have to escape "
2019-10-07T22:18:50Z aeth: Some of them might escape more just because, or even make it configurable
2019-10-07T22:19:37Z vms14: (defun read-stuff () (read-from-string (format nil "(~A)" (read-line))))
2019-10-07T22:19:38Z vms14: xD
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2019-10-07T22:35:08Z thijso: Shinmera: looks interesting, but it's way past my bedtime here. I'll try to remember to look at it tomorrow. Or remind me...
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2019-10-07T23:01:13Z no-defun-allowed: w.r.t update-instance-for-redefined-class, if I redefine a class A to A', then A' to A'', does the function have to be called twice or can the function "jump" from A to A''?
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2019-10-07T23:12:45Z Bike: it could jump
2019-10-07T23:12:56Z Bike: the object isn't necessarily updated as soon as you redefine the class
2019-10-07T23:13:00Z Bike: clhs make-instances-obsolete
2019-10-07T23:13:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_i_1.htm
2019-10-07T23:13:29Z Bike: er... well, 4.3.6
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2019-10-07T23:13:36Z Bike: "Updating such an instance occurs at an implementation-dependent time, but no later than the next time a slot of that instance is read or written."
2019-10-07T23:13:36Z no-defun-allowed: Thankyou.
2019-10-07T23:13:50Z Bike: so if you don't access a slot while it's an A', no update
2019-10-07T23:14:01Z Bike: not necessarily an update, rather
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2019-10-07T23:49:41Z no-defun-allowed: Is it possible to write a file before closing it?
2019-10-07T23:50:50Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe that's finish-output.
2019-10-07T23:52:31Z Josh_2: terpri?
2019-10-07T23:54:50Z Josh_2: finish-output works
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2019-10-08T04:40:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-08T04:49:46Z Josh_2: Mornin'
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2019-10-08T04:57:08Z patrixl: heya all
2019-10-08T04:57:32Z beach: Hello patrixl.
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2019-10-08T06:07:41Z yoeljacobsen: Is there a way to see every bound variables in SLDB with SBCL (like CCL's default behavior when entering a frame)?
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2019-10-08T06:27:00Z Shinmera: yoeljacobsen: If they're not there they have been optimised out. You can try compiling your function with debug 3 (C-u C-c C-c) to retain them, but if they're not used at all they still won't show up even then.
2019-10-08T06:28:45Z yoeljacobsen: Thanks. I'll keep developing with CCL then.
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2019-10-08T06:54:06Z nwoob: Not exactly a lisp question but  I want to seek some guidance. I am not a smart person, i can't come up to solutions quickly.  So what can I do to become a good programmer like people here
2019-10-08T06:56:43Z Shinmera: Same as with any skill. practise, reflect, correct, repeat.
2019-10-08T06:57:42Z nwoob: So it is possible to counted as a good programmer even when a person is not smart to be start with
2019-10-08T06:59:25Z nwoob: I read all those fairy tales like stuff about lisp that it is magical and will open your mind and all that stuff, maybe I'm looking at it wrong
2019-10-08T07:00:43Z Shinmera: Lisp offers different perspectives on writing programs. These perspectives can be valuable and useful to building good software.
2019-10-08T07:01:24Z Shinmera: There's plenty of languages out there that are very different, and each come with their own perspectives. Ideally you learn them all.
2019-10-08T07:02:21Z Shinmera: Variety is the spice of life, and all that.
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2019-10-08T07:11:07Z nwoob: Hmm ok
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2019-10-08T07:15:01Z beach: nwoob: I often recommend a book entitled "Peak" by Anders Ericsson.
2019-10-08T07:15:45Z beach: nwoob: His research shows that expertise is the result of hard work and not of any sort of intrinsic concept of intelligence.
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2019-10-08T07:30:35Z scymtym: when i install screamer via quicklisp, i get screamer-20190710-git. however, looking at https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/blob/master/projects/screamer/source.txt and https://github.com/nikodemus/screamer , it seems the most recent change was in 2015. does anybody know why that is?
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2019-10-08T07:57:47Z nwoob: beach Book named peak secrets from the new science of expertise ?
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2019-10-08T08:06:31Z leedleLoo: I recently read richard gabriel's paper here where he distinguishes between languages and systems: https://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/Incommensurability.pdf. Is there other reading making this distinction? When folks have asked why I prefer CL, especially over other lisps, I've always pointed out that the environment exposed through lisp/slime is unparalleled and I feel that the paper kinda touches on this
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2019-10-08T08:15:17Z seok: is there a limit on how much memory sbcl will use with portacle setup?
2019-10-08T08:15:30Z seok: it seems to hang when I try to read a large csv
2019-10-08T08:18:21Z Lycurgus: u need to set the heap size it won't grow beyond the configed limit, though the hang being a loop is suspect
2019-10-08T08:18:44Z seok: How do I set it?
2019-10-08T08:18:53Z Lycurgus: command line parm
2019-10-08T08:19:00Z seok: It reads a csv with 41k rows fine
2019-10-08T08:19:08Z seok: but hangs when reading 740k rows csv
2019-10-08T08:19:27Z Lycurgus: dynamic space and stack size
2019-10-08T08:19:55Z seok: Is there a guide somewhere?
2019-10-08T08:20:04Z Lycurgus: man sbcl
2019-10-08T08:20:06Z seok: I do not have understanding of those concepts
2019-10-08T08:20:25Z Lycurgus: those are literally the names of the parms
2019-10-08T08:22:29Z seok: so I found this command for emacs
2019-10-08T08:22:30Z seok: (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl --dynamic-space-size 1024")
2019-10-08T08:22:37Z seok: but what does that 1024 mean?
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2019-10-08T08:23:08Z Lycurgus: prolly 1 GB
2019-10-08T08:23:27Z seok: so it means sbcl will use maximum 1gb ram?
2019-10-08T08:23:40Z Lycurgus: correct
2019-10-08T08:24:06Z seok: nice, thanks
2019-10-08T08:24:10Z Lycurgus: so set to 8192 and give it a whirl
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2019-10-08T08:39:44Z seok: hm.. setting .emacs did not work for me
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2019-10-08T08:51:29Z beach: nwoob: Yes, that one.
2019-10-08T08:51:45Z beach: leedleLoo: That is a pretty standard distinction.
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2019-10-08T08:55:39Z beach: leedleLoo: See for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language
2019-10-08T09:09:12Z leedleLoo: beach: I'm not sure which section in the wiki is relevant to the lang vs system distinction
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2019-10-08T09:12:50Z schweers: seok: Did you re-evaluate the setq form?  Also, did you restart your lisp?
2019-10-08T09:12:57Z beach: leedleLoo: A language is "just" a (usually infinite) set of phrases.  By "system", I assume that Gabriel meant some kind of software.
2019-10-08T09:13:00Z seok: Yeah
2019-10-08T09:13:19Z seok: schweers: I edited .emacs and restarted portacle
2019-10-08T09:14:04Z schweers: As I have no idea what portacle does, I’m afraid I can’t tell you where portacle gets its configuration.  Does it start an emacs instance?
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2019-10-08T09:24:24Z leedleLoo: beach: Gabriel defined his use of Language and System on page 11 of the paper. I'm still not sure what part of wikipedia is relevant, though
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2019-10-08T09:28:15Z beach: leedleLoo: OK, too bad.
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2019-10-08T09:41:44Z _death: leedleLoo: maybe you'll be interested in http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Hindsight.html
2019-10-08T09:41:48Z seok: schweers, yeah it does. It's just an all in one emacs-slime-sbcl package
2019-10-08T09:49:08Z leedleLoo: _death: I skimmed over the headings and will read later on, but this is great, thanks :)
2019-10-08T09:52:05Z _death: it doesn't go too deep, just the first thing that occurred to me in relation to the RPG paper
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2019-10-08T10:02:20Z schweers: seok: That’s weird.  I use the same variable to set my heap size and it works just fine.  I don’t use portacle though.
2019-10-08T10:05:28Z leedleLoo: The page seems to focus on the repl-experience instead of just talking about the language itself, and that's what I was interested in. I've always felt that folks comparing CL to other languages/lisps have tended to focus on the language and the not development experience as a whole
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2019-10-08T10:23:59Z _death: leedleLoo: correct.. there are other communities also taking the system view seriously, such as the Smalltalk community..
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2019-10-08T10:27:51Z leedleLoo: _death: I haven't really dabbled in Smalltalk myself, but from what I've read, that's absolutely true. I haven't seen other communities with this viewpoint though, and it's really the main reason why I write CL
2019-10-08T10:33:59Z _death: leedleLoo: I found it interesting that the target paper critiqued by RPG was written by a Smalltalk guy
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2019-10-08T10:56:15Z Shinmera: seok: .emacs does not apply to Portacle. Use user.el in the config/ directory instead.
2019-10-08T10:56:23Z Shinmera: The help file explains this.
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2019-10-08T11:09:26Z thijso: _death: that hindsight link seems to touch on quite a few things in common with PAIP, which I'm reading through for the first time now
2019-10-08T11:09:59Z thijso: which I should have done a long time ago...
2019-10-08T11:11:10Z thijso: can't say I'm able to follow all of it on first read, though... info density is quite high
2019-10-08T11:14:10Z _death: thijso: yes, it's worth multiple readings
2019-10-08T11:15:59Z thijso: I'm afraid it'll be a bit like physics in high school... you follow the explanation during class, and think, oh right, I understand that... then, when you need to figure out the stuff yourself during a test, you're totally lost and unable to make the leap from problem to solution...
2019-10-08T11:16:14Z thijso: or is that not a universal thing... ;)
2019-10-08T11:16:28Z _death: well, it also has exercises
2019-10-08T11:16:52Z thijso: Yeah... I'm skipping those on the first read through... have to save something for later, right?
2019-10-08T11:17:04Z thijso: maybe not the smartest decision, though...
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2019-10-08T11:19:29Z _death: it's not a critical one anyway.. before or after matters less as long as at some point you get some practice
2019-10-08T11:20:41Z thijso: yep
2019-10-08T11:21:34Z _death: it's not a race, take it easy :)
2019-10-08T11:25:18Z _death: incidentally, Norvig also wrote the Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years paper
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2019-10-08T12:29:21Z drmeister: Hello lispers
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2019-10-08T12:38:38Z moldybits: hello
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2019-10-08T12:44:48Z papachan: hello
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2019-10-08T13:12:39Z beach: Since many people here hang out neither in #sicl nor in #clim, let me just encourage anyone who regularly uses an inspector during development to try the new version of Clouseau.  I am currently using its extension API in order to inspect SICL bootstrapping objects, something that was not possible with the old Clouseau.  The new version is a total rewrite (by scymtym) and I thing he did a fantastic job.
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2019-10-08T13:15:13Z beach: s/thing/think/
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2019-10-08T13:30:24Z yoeljacobsen: beach - I couldn't find much info on Clouseau - may you please provide more information on how to try it?
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2019-10-08T13:34:11Z edgar-rft: yoeljacobsen: see https://www.cliki.net/Clouseau
2019-10-08T13:35:59Z yoeljacobsen: thanks
2019-10-08T13:37:51Z edgar-rft: yoeljacobsen: don't thank me too early, the link leads to a ten year old version :-(
2019-10-08T13:38:48Z scymtym: i updated the wiki page to link to the current source (i.e. https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/tree/master/Apps/Clouseau ). the documentation is here: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/static/manual/mcclim.html#Inspector
2019-10-08T13:40:46Z edgar-rft: scymtym: thank you :-)
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2019-10-08T14:13:47Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hello folks, hello there, hello all, hello wholes, hello You. Hi, hey, hello!
2019-10-08T14:15:32Z decent-username: geez, I think your name is even more retarded than mine.
2019-10-08T14:15:45Z decent-username: hi asdf_asdf_asdf
2019-10-08T14:17:03Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Ask a question and wait already on the answer.
2019-10-08T14:18:18Z shinohai: At least his name isn't quicklisp_quicklisp_quicklisp.
2019-10-08T14:22:40Z Bike: kicked but not banned. well, the banlist is clear enough for it now
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2019-10-08T14:28:41Z pjb: at least, it's not asdfy-mcasdface !
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2019-10-08T16:46:34Z vms14: does format sabe the "index" number when is looping over a list?
2019-10-08T16:46:46Z vms14: like dolist (i list), I want the i
2019-10-08T16:46:55Z vms14: /sabe/save
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2019-10-08T16:47:45Z White_Flame: dolist would set I to the element of the list, not the index number
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2019-10-08T16:48:48Z vms14: I want to format a numbered list with 1. something
2019-10-08T16:48:58Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hello everybody. The latest version ERC is 5.3 - this is stable version?
2019-10-08T16:49:19Z vms14: I'd like to use something like (format t "~{~a~}" '("rule 1" "rule 2"))
2019-10-08T16:49:54Z vms14: White_Flame: right, sorry, dotimes*
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2019-10-08T16:51:15Z vms14: there is no directive in format to print the current number of iterations inside a list?
2019-10-08T16:51:16Z Bike: vms14: it does not save the index number.
2019-10-08T16:51:20Z Bike: no.
2019-10-08T16:51:24Z vms14: oh
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2019-10-08T16:51:44Z vms14: then I'll make a wrapper
2019-10-08T16:51:45Z vms14: ty
2019-10-08T16:53:53Z White_Flame: isn't there a format escape that will evaluate a form?  can you shove an INCF in there?
2019-10-08T16:54:01Z White_Flame can't find one at the moment
2019-10-08T16:54:11Z Bike: no.
2019-10-08T16:54:57Z Bike: format is just a normal function, it doesn't evaluate anything.
2019-10-08T16:54:59Z pjb: vms14: http://paste.lisp.org/display/163695
2019-10-08T16:55:07Z Bike: to evaluate an incf it would have to know about the local environment.
2019-10-08T16:57:49Z White_Flame: yeah, tilde slash, that was it
2019-10-08T16:59:08Z pfdietz: In which I discover both Optima and Trivia can take exponential time to compile a pattern.
2019-10-08T17:00:18Z dlowe: you can make it call a global function
2019-10-08T17:00:31Z vms14: (defun ordered-list (list)
2019-10-08T17:00:31Z vms14:   (dotimes (i (length list))
2019-10-08T17:00:32Z vms14:     (format t "~a. ~a~%" (1+ i) (nth i list))))
2019-10-08T17:00:32Z vms14:  
2019-10-08T17:00:59Z dlowe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm
2019-10-08T17:01:51Z dlowe: vms14: you would be much better off using DO or LOOP for that
2019-10-08T17:02:19Z dlowe: vms14: that call to NTH is giong to traverse the list for every element
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2019-10-08T17:03:07Z pjb: vms14: (format nil "~2,1@/fmt-index/~:*~{~,/fmt-index/~:* ~(~A~)~^~%~}." '("rule 1" "rule 2")) #| --> "1 rule 1 ; 2 rule 2." |#
2019-10-08T17:03:57Z White_Flame: stupid hack: https://pastebin.com/RXNr23Qk
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2019-10-08T17:04:10Z White_Flame: would have to reset the counter on each use
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2019-10-08T17:05:23Z White_Flame: an easier-to-write but less memory efficient version would be to map* up a list of data with calculated counters in it, then pass that to FORMAT
2019-10-08T17:05:43Z dlowe: (loop for e in list as i from 0 do (format t "~a. ~a~%" i e)) seems more than reasonable
2019-10-08T17:06:13Z White_Flame: yeah, if the challenge isn't just calling FORMAT once
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2019-10-08T17:06:46Z pjb: Remember that the control string is an argument to format. It can come from a configuration file or a localization file.
2019-10-08T17:06:47Z dlowe: I suspect this isn't a challenge but a newbie making things difficult for themselves
2019-10-08T17:06:51Z vms14: pjb: I've stolen your code
2019-10-08T17:06:54Z vms14: and I'm testing
2019-10-08T17:07:18Z vms14: you gave me this link some time before because I remember trying it
2019-10-08T17:08:00Z vms14: the ftm-index function is very big for just count numbers in a list
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2019-10-08T17:08:17Z vms14: but it's an interesting case and a good example to learn how to create functions for format
2019-10-08T17:08:18Z vms14: so thanks
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2019-10-08T17:32:34Z pjb: vms14: format is also a very big function for just writing an integer and a string.
2019-10-08T17:32:49Z pjb: vms14: try to eliminate all the very big functions. That's a good aim.
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2019-10-08T17:39:47Z vms14: pjb: I'll never "eliminate" format
2019-10-08T17:40:06Z vms14: is the best "printing" function I've seen
2019-10-08T17:40:31Z vms14: I have this
2019-10-08T17:40:33Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/sPCxjBprXq/
2019-10-08T17:40:48Z White_Flame: one of the more interesting output construction facilities I've seen is in Erlang
2019-10-08T17:40:48Z vms14: there is a friend "refactoring" some other's bash scripts
2019-10-08T17:41:12Z vms14: and I thought it could be a good exercise for a noob like me to create a lisp version of this script
2019-10-08T17:41:21Z White_Flame: you build up nested lists of strings (or byte values), and then the final output call loops through, flattening all the output into the stream
2019-10-08T17:41:26Z vms14: atm I just have (show-menu) xD
2019-10-08T17:41:34Z White_Flame: so things like (list "(" contents ")") are easy
2019-10-08T17:41:46Z vms14: but I like it because you give a list of options and a list of functions
2019-10-08T17:41:47Z White_Flame: without having to muck about with what's actually in the contents
2019-10-08T17:41:57Z vms14: and "associates" options with functions by order
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2019-10-08T17:45:04Z vms14: I want to make my friend learn lisp, he is kinda interesting due to emacs & elisp
2019-10-08T17:45:19Z vms14: s/interesting/interested
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2019-10-08T18:52:39Z aeth: the only problem with format is that there isn't a (standard) deformat for parsing so you could (stream "~F" variable) and get a variable out
2019-10-08T18:52:50Z aeth: s/stream/deformat stream/
2019-10-08T18:53:40Z Bike: you should use an actual parser
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2019-10-08T20:07:51Z pjb: aeth: format is quite complex, with ~{ an ~/; it would be difficult to write a symetric scan function.
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2019-10-08T21:21:19Z vms14: how can I achieve this in a macro?
2019-10-08T21:21:27Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/RDRG5pCGKt/
2019-10-08T21:21:46Z vms14: where I should put the backquoute, or how I need to do it?
2019-10-08T21:21:52Z Bike: your example doesn't have what is actually returned
2019-10-08T21:22:08Z vms14: yes, it should return the list
2019-10-08T21:22:16Z Bike: the list of what
2019-10-08T21:22:46Z vms14: a list of lambdas created on the fly
2019-10-08T21:23:27Z vms14: I want to make  amacro like (code-lambda-list ('(+ 3 2) '(format t "oh")))
2019-10-08T21:23:37Z vms14: and have a list of lambdas created with this code in the body
2019-10-08T21:23:43Z vms14: accepting 0 arguments
2019-10-08T21:23:52Z vms14: but I don't know how to create the macro for that
2019-10-08T21:24:10Z Bike: So writing (code-lambda-list (+ 3 2) (format t "oh")) is equivalent to writing (list (lambda () (+ 3 2)) (lambda () (format t "oh")))?
2019-10-08T21:24:17Z vms14: yes
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2019-10-08T21:24:37Z Bike: That's what you need to convey in your example and think about when you're writing a macro. The expansion.
2019-10-08T21:24:49Z Bike: You're expanding into a call to list, so you'll want `(list ...)
2019-10-08T21:24:54Z vms14: but I need to use ,@ for the body of the lambda
2019-10-08T21:25:04Z Bike: take a step back here.
2019-10-08T21:25:06Z vms14: the problem is I need the @, of every argument
2019-10-08T21:25:27Z Bike: You actually don't need to use the ,@ construct at all, if you think about it.
2019-10-08T21:25:41Z Bike: Don't think in terms of backquoting, think in terms of inputs and outputs. You're just constructing a form.
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2019-10-08T21:29:48Z vms14: I have no idea how
2019-10-08T21:29:48Z vms14: xD
2019-10-08T21:30:23Z vms14: give me a hint
2019-10-08T21:33:09Z Bike: (defmacro code-lambda-list (&rest forms) `(list ,@(loop for form in forms collect `(lambda () ,form)))) is how i'd write it. no ,@ of the forms.
2019-10-08T21:33:53Z vms14: oh
2019-10-08T21:34:05Z vms14: thanks
2019-10-08T21:35:34Z Bike: try to understand how it works
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2019-10-08T21:42:03Z vms14: `(lambda () ,'(+ 3 2)) I'm trying to understand it with this
2019-10-08T21:42:31Z vms14: (funcall (eval `(lambda () ,'(+ 3 2))))
2019-10-08T21:43:22Z Bike: What don't you understand?
2019-10-08T21:43:37Z vms14: the loop macro
2019-10-08T21:43:40Z vms14: I mean
2019-10-08T21:43:55Z vms14: using ,@ with the loopmacro
2019-10-08T21:44:05Z vms14: this is why I'm isolating stuff
2019-10-08T21:44:08Z Bike: ,@ doesn't care, it just gets a list.
2019-10-08T21:44:29Z Bike: `(-2 -1 ,@(loop for i below 5 collect i) 6 7)
2019-10-08T21:44:36Z Bike: er, upto i, whatever.
2019-10-08T21:45:14Z Bike: (defmacro code-lambda-list (&rest forms) (cons 'list (loop for form in forms collect (list lambda () form)))) works too.
2019-10-08T21:45:24Z Bike: er, 'lambda
2019-10-08T21:45:47Z vms14: (dolist (oh (list "oh" "my" "cat")) (push `(lambda () ,oh)) flist) why this isn't working
2019-10-08T21:46:14Z Bike: You probably meant (push `(lambda () ,oh) flist)?
2019-10-08T21:46:23Z vms14: oh lol
2019-10-08T21:46:31Z Bike: I get an error like "Too few arguments supplied to a macro or a destructuring-bind form", don't you?
2019-10-08T21:46:41Z vms14: oh so it worked
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2019-10-08T21:47:01Z vms14: this is why I didn't understand why loop worked
2019-10-08T21:47:17Z Bike: What?
2019-10-08T21:47:27Z vms14: nvm tried this (dolist (oh (list "oh" "my" "cat")) (push `(lambda () ,oh) flist))
2019-10-08T21:47:51Z vms14: but I had a parent in a bad position
2019-10-08T21:48:11Z vms14: and I thought it was because i wasn't allowed todo that instead of a "typo"
2019-10-08T21:48:24Z vms14: but it works
2019-10-08T21:48:30Z Bike: (defmacro code-lambda-list (&rest forms) (cons 'list (let ((elems nil)) (dolist (form forms (nreverse elems)) (push (list 'lambda () form) elems)))))
2019-10-08T21:48:32Z vms14: thanks a lot for your help Bike
2019-10-08T21:48:48Z Bike: no problem
2019-10-08T21:48:52Z vms14: I don't even need a macro
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2019-10-08T21:54:43Z Bike: that happens sometimes.
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2019-10-08T22:00:26Z vms14: oh thanks for this macro
2019-10-08T22:00:29Z vms14: <3
2019-10-08T22:01:03Z vms14: I have a function that associates options with functions and calls a function depending on the option the user chooses
2019-10-08T22:01:23Z Bike quit (Quit: Bike)
2019-10-08T22:01:46Z vms14: my funcion expects a list of strings for the options, and a list of lambdas
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2019-10-08T22:03:18Z vms14: now I can just (show-menu '("option1" "option2") (code-lambda-list (print "option1") (print "option2")))
2019-10-08T22:14:50Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/rPnzS56hKB/
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2019-10-08T22:36:21Z teeeay: might be the wrong place to ask, but does anyone here have any experience with the vecto library for common-lisp?
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2019-10-08T23:24:20Z dlowe: This is a great place to ask, but maybe the wrong time of day
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2019-10-08T23:43:52Z pjb: teeeay: ∀l ∃u library(l) ∧ user(u) ∧ has_experience_with(u,l)
2019-10-08T23:44:28Z pjb: teeeay: it's a theorem, assuming author(u,l) ⇒ has_experience_with(u,l)
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2019-10-09T00:26:15Z vms14: Shinmera: I see you're a lisp web developer
2019-10-09T00:26:37Z vms14: You wrote a lot of web lisp stuff, I'm looking at your LASS library
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2019-10-09T00:30:06Z vms14: Shinmera: can you point/recommend some lisp web libraries? not just your own ones, but stuff you find is useful for web development
2019-10-09T00:30:20Z vms14: https://www.cliki.net/Web
2019-10-09T00:33:26Z patrixl: I've used Radiance extensively, other accompanying libraries I've made the most use of also are:
2019-10-09T00:33:44Z patrixl: cl-strings, dexador (like drakma, for http requests), ironclad
2019-10-09T00:35:17Z patrixl: yason for json parsing/emitting, spinneret for handling html, plump for xml/html parsing...
2019-10-09T00:35:36Z vms14: ty patrixl
2019-10-09T00:35:47Z vms14: I was just going to use spinneret
2019-10-09T00:35:55Z vms14: tried cl-markup, but meh
2019-10-09T00:36:13Z vms14: and It's not the first time I found a lisper who does not like cl-who for some reasons
2019-10-09T00:36:23Z patrixl: oh yeah I tried a few.. started out with cl-who at first, used r-clip as well, for now I settled on Spinneret
2019-10-09T00:36:34Z vms14: why spinneret won?
2019-10-09T00:36:56Z patrixl: cl-who is alright, I think it's when you want to do more complex things that you start writing macros, so might as well use something like spinneret that can help out
2019-10-09T00:37:10Z vms14: I've looked at cl-css, it's fine. Also looking at Shinmera's LASS library which seems much nicer
2019-10-09T00:37:18Z patrixl: basically I wanted to define my own "tags" so simplify my code and remove a lot of repetitions
2019-10-09T00:38:10Z patrixl: so it was either write a bunch of macros with cl-who, and learn a bunch of lessons over time leading me to rewrite my macros.. or use spinneret that already has gone through that process lol
2019-10-09T00:38:12Z vms14: patrixl: do you have some website running?
2019-10-09T00:38:31Z patrixl: nothing public no
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2019-10-09T00:38:41Z patrixl: only internal company stuff
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2019-10-09T00:39:06Z mfiano: Edi Weitz doesn't even like cl-who, and he wrote it.
2019-10-09T00:39:50Z mfiano: He goes as far as to recommend alternatives in his book, Common Lisp Recipes. He told me I should use them in email correspondence
2019-10-09T00:40:35Z patrixl: lol
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2019-10-09T00:52:19Z vms14: wow spinneret has a lot of dependences
2019-10-09T00:52:39Z vms14: https://i.ibb.co/vDQ0J4x/7ecfcb57199e.png
2019-10-09T00:52:55Z mfiano: That's because it's ruricolist's project, and he wrote and uses serapeum everywhere, which has almost 40 dependencies itself
2019-10-09T00:57:45Z patrixl: I see.. right I do remember reacting like that too but then moving on
2019-10-09T00:57:59Z patrixl: and thinking "40 deps isn't as bad as any npm package" and then berating myself for thinking like that
2019-10-09T00:58:16Z vms14: xD
2019-10-09T00:58:52Z aeth: What's going to become my utility library has essentially no dependencies except for alexandria and maybe a few more.
2019-10-09T00:59:12Z patrixl: nice
2019-10-09T00:59:19Z aeth: You have to do some really fancy stuff to need a library for utils
2019-10-09T00:59:32Z aeth: And in that case, just spin it off as a threading lib or something
2019-10-09T01:00:53Z aeth: For CSS, well, CSS is much harder than HTML because it has this weird regexp-like language for selectors
2019-10-09T01:01:19Z mfiano: javascript has more dependencies because they have libraries for the most basic of tasks. there are such things as 1-line libraries. In a way this is better, but it does result in downloading the whole internet for a trivial project. I am of the opinion that utility libraries are rather useless when they bring in so much functionality that you don't need. Just copy what you need into your project and move on.
2019-10-09T01:01:21Z mfiano: It's lighter, and less chance for breakage after updates
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2019-10-09T01:01:38Z aeth: I thought I had a feature list, then I realized each feature has features, and I shelfed my CSS selector DSL for another day... again.
2019-10-09T01:02:00Z patrixl: I still just write my CSS by hand.. and some simple JS as well...
2019-10-09T01:02:39Z aeth: Well, I allow strings as selectors and always will because there's a good chance I'll accidentally leave features out
2019-10-09T01:02:59Z aeth: And some might prefer the weird regexp-style mini-language CSS uses
2019-10-09T01:03:29Z vms14: patrixl: why not cl-css or lass?
2019-10-09T01:04:51Z patrixl: my css was simple, didn't see the point of going through those yet
2019-10-09T01:05:54Z patrixl: just write it in a static file, move on with my life lol
2019-10-09T01:06:26Z vms14: I was thinking in not use any html generator atm
2019-10-09T01:06:35Z vms14: so same for css
2019-10-09T01:06:57Z aeth: what are you trying to do?
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2019-10-09T01:07:35Z vms14: I wanted to make a forum to practice, but I'm going to make a simple QA website
2019-10-09T01:07:47Z vms14: questions/anwsers website like stackoverflow or quora
2019-10-09T01:08:14Z vms14: I want to practice with microdata and I saw it's very easy to put microdata for a qa page
2019-10-09T01:08:54Z vms14: google should show the answered question in a more visible way using microdata, stackoverflow uses microdata, quora does not
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2019-10-09T01:10:57Z vms14: a forum has more needs than what I thought, I'm using phpbb as example to see what a forum should have. I see it uses templates for html with some little dsl inserted in it
2019-10-09T01:11:28Z vms14: It seems to be an interesting exercise to create a forum, but I'm really aiming to create a forum creator
2019-10-09T01:12:09Z vms14: should be a good step for then creating a website creator, a forum has more specific stuff, so it should be easier
2019-10-09T01:12:32Z aeth: phpBB offers a lot more than you probably need to offer for an initial first attempt at a web app
2019-10-09T01:12:52Z aeth: Start with the absolute basic, required functionality
2019-10-09T01:12:59Z vms14: aeth: yes, but it serves as a good example and I can look at their features and steal them slowly
2019-10-09T01:13:31Z vms14: s/ir//
2019-10-09T01:14:39Z vms14: I've started with basics which was just create post create users and render posts
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2019-10-09T01:20:11Z aeth: Running a forum (or wiki or whatever) on the Internet isn't really about the visible feature set, it's about the invisible issues that are practically mandatory, like moderation tools and anti-spam measures.
2019-10-09T01:20:32Z vms14: well, a QA site seems to be very easy stuff
2019-10-09T01:20:42Z vms14: just questions and answers, and categories
2019-10-09T01:21:04Z vms14: it's like the minimum base of a forum
2019-10-09T01:21:27Z vms14: so seems a good start
2019-10-09T01:21:36Z aeth: It does, however, require (practically) all of the hard things that a forum requires.
2019-10-09T01:21:46Z vms14: aeth: what you mean?
2019-10-09T01:22:06Z aeth: If you just have a submit box on the Internet, bots will flood it. Especially if it's known software like MediaWiki or phpBB, but I assume it will apply to custom forums as well.
2019-10-09T01:22:14Z aeth: Look at lisp paste for an example.
2019-10-09T01:22:16Z aeth: That had to shut down.
2019-10-09T01:22:28Z vms14: yes, I cannot think about security atm
2019-10-09T01:22:43Z aeth: I'd just make it require an account to post, and have no registration at all.
2019-10-09T01:23:08Z vms14: so manual registration for every user?
2019-10-09T01:23:09Z aeth: If you want others to use it, you could have an IRC bot here give people a secret registration link. Security by obscurity, nobody's going to think to use an IRC bot.
2019-10-09T01:23:16Z vms14: like write a mail to have an account?
2019-10-09T01:23:19Z aeth: Or, yes, manually add them.
2019-10-09T01:23:34Z aeth: Otherwise you're going to have to think about how to combat spam accounts far too much and that'll be all you think about.
2019-10-09T01:23:53Z aeth: (I was a wiki admin once, a long time ago)
2019-10-09T01:23:55Z vms14: yes, people like to fuck around
2019-10-09T01:24:26Z vms14: I won't worry about this atm or I'll do nothing
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2019-10-09T01:24:47Z vms14: I won't think even in sqlite injection and scaping html
2019-10-09T01:24:55Z vms14: just have it working and then worry about
2019-10-09T01:25:43Z aeth: Escaping HTML is easy, just do a quick substitution of <, >, and &.
2019-10-09T01:26:00Z vms14: and for sql injection, what characters I need to care about?
2019-10-09T01:26:07Z vms14: I just know -- and ;
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2019-10-09T01:27:02Z vms14: I suppose I should take out words like where, etc
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2019-10-09T01:48:59Z no-defun-allowed: That's not a good way to avoid injection.
2019-10-09T01:49:32Z no-defun-allowed: Because then if you have a name like John Where, you now store John. That sucks.
2019-10-09T01:50:31Z no-defun-allowed: I think any SQL libraries in CL with a s-expression syntax (or most SQL libraries in any language with some special function) will escape for you though.
2019-10-09T01:54:42Z aeth: xkcd 327 is old enough (2007-10-10) that if anyone did name a kid that name, then that kid could turning 12 in a few days. https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Little_Bobby_Tables
2019-10-09T01:55:40Z aeth: take a few years to develop your software and Bobby Tables could literally be using your forum software
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2019-10-09T02:01:13Z aeth: The article for the comic at [1] recommends to use prepared statements [2]. [1] https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/327:_Exploits_of_a_Mom [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prepared_statement
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2019-10-09T04:17:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-09T09:57:04Z phoe: Hey #lisp.
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2019-10-09T09:57:51Z phoe: I remember that some time ago I was working on some code that split paragraphs of text into chunks that are no more than N characters in length. I don't have that function anymore though.
2019-10-09T09:57:58Z phoe: The requirement was to only split by spaces, so words aren't snapped in half.
2019-10-09T09:58:20Z phoe: Basically a manual line breaking function.
2019-10-09T10:00:37Z ebrasca: phoe: Hi
2019-10-09T10:03:13Z flip214: phoe: so, basically, (POSITION #\Space string :from-end T :end line-len) and cut off there, rinse and repeat?
2019-10-09T10:03:58Z phoe: flip214: yes, something like that.
2019-10-09T10:10:16Z flip214: what should happen with too-long words?
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2019-10-09T10:10:35Z flip214: what should happen with multiple spaces at the line-end? continue the next line with spaces?
2019-10-09T10:12:11Z phoe: flip214: coalesce multiple whitespaces into one, and too-long words should be broken up as-is; if the line width is 80 and a word is 90, then we break that into 80 and let the 10 overflow to the next line.
2019-10-09T10:12:40Z phoe: Gosh, I have become so rusty when it comes to Lisp. (Pun not intended.)
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2019-10-09T10:34:10Z Shinmera: phoe: What is your question?
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2019-10-09T10:42:41Z phoe: Shinmera: I remember that this problem was solved before, maybe two or three years ago, and I was discussing it on #lisp. Does anyone remember it and/or have the code that was posted then?
2019-10-09T10:45:27Z Shinmera: Ah. I do not remember nor have the code. I have my own version of this primitive line breaking in Trial, and will be working on a Proper™ solution sometime soon.
2019-10-09T10:48:27Z phoe: Shinmera: please share your code for that
2019-10-09T10:48:40Z pjb: What about: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:string-justify-left "abc de ghi jk lmno pq" 7) #| --> "abc de
2019-10-09T10:48:40Z pjb: ghi jk
2019-10-09T10:48:40Z pjb: lmno pq" |#  ?
2019-10-09T10:48:42Z p_l: btw, anyone using CommonQT on macOS?
2019-10-09T10:48:52Z p_l: (recently, that is)
2019-10-09T10:49:13Z Shinmera: phoe: https://github.com/Shirakumo/trial/blob/master/text.lisp#L65
2019-10-09T10:49:52Z Shinmera: p_l: Not recently, no. What's up?
2019-10-09T10:50:29Z p_l: trying to figure if there are any roadblocks in front of me, since well, it's starting to get problematic to just find info about installing Qt4
2019-10-09T10:50:48Z Shinmera: just quickload qt+libs instead of qt
2019-10-09T10:51:03Z Shinmera: And I mean that literally
2019-10-09T10:51:05Z p_l: Shinmera: it will grab precompiled libs?
2019-10-09T10:51:10Z Shinmera: yes
2019-10-09T10:51:14Z p_l: yay!
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2019-10-09T10:51:23Z Shinmera: I hope they still work
2019-10-09T10:51:36Z p_l: Shinmera: that said, I'd love to ensure that such an approach will *continue* to work
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2019-10-09T10:51:53Z p_l: I don't have much time, and my volunteering time is pretty much negative now, but maybe some time in future
2019-10-09T10:52:03Z Shinmera: That'd be much appreciated! :)
2019-10-09T10:52:17Z Shinmera: The system that does the work for that is https://github.com/shinmera/qt-libs
2019-10-09T10:52:27Z p_l: and while I know how to get around on linux, work saddled me with a mac...
2019-10-09T10:52:31Z Shinmera: the qt+libs thing is a tie-in with that in commonqt (which qtools uses by default)
2019-10-09T10:57:31Z Shinmera: phoe: though you can improve the results drastically by just using something like: https://shinmera.github.io/uax-14/#How%20To instead
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2019-10-09T11:02:38Z phoe: oh
2019-10-09T11:03:18Z phoe: I wasn't aware of this library
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2019-10-09T11:06:35Z Shinmera: still need to do UAX 50 and 29 before I can get to the text layouting engine though
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2019-10-09T11:09:26Z p_l: Shinmera: is there anything I can call out to get a quick test of qtools? Haven't touched GUI coding in years...
2019-10-09T11:09:41Z Shinmera: uuuh, the code examples I guess.
2019-10-09T11:10:02Z Shinmera: no test suite I'm afraid :/
2019-10-09T11:10:22Z p_l: ahh, nvm, found "hemlock.qt", might be enough ;)
2019-10-09T11:10:26Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell p_l look up qtools examples
2019-10-09T11:10:26Z Colleen: p_l: Examples https://shinmera.github.io/qtools#examples
2019-10-09T11:10:41Z Shinmera: There's also the Halftone sample application in Quicklisp
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2019-10-09T11:11:56Z p_l: ugh, qt+libs download process exploded CCL
2019-10-09T11:12:06Z Shinmera: oh dear
2019-10-09T11:12:19Z Shinmera: you sure it exploded and isn't just downloading slowly?
2019-10-09T11:12:19Z p_l: pretty sure 0x18 is not an address that should be referenced
2019-10-09T11:12:24Z Shinmera: oh. yes.
2019-10-09T11:12:31Z p_l: I'm in kernel debug
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2019-10-09T11:12:53Z p_l: exploded in foreign code, looks like cl+ssl
2019-10-09T11:12:59Z Shinmera: yeesh. I think it's just doing a drakma download and zip extract. Nothing too weird there except perphaps cl+ss-- ahh.
2019-10-09T11:13:30Z Shinmera: you can download the archives manually, I suppose.
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2019-10-09T11:16:20Z flip214: p_l: which cl+ssl version are you using?
2019-10-09T11:20:59Z p_l: flip214: whatever is in current quicklisp - I literally just grabbed quicklisp.lisp on this machine
2019-10-09T11:21:15Z p_l: macOS 10.14, CCL 1.11 (from app store)
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2019-10-09T11:21:27Z p_l: openssl from homebrew (formula openssl@1.1)
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2019-10-09T11:52:21Z p_l: I'm thinking of ugly patching qt+libs to use run-program from uiop
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2019-10-09T12:04:05Z thijso: What are the options for Qt on Lisp? I'm currently working with EQL5 (well, the android port EQL5-Android), and just now saw CommonQt mentioned (which I remember trying a long time ago, but didn't manage to really get working). Is that it, or there more avenues?
2019-10-09T12:04:21Z Shinmera: That's it.
2019-10-09T12:04:37Z bitmapper: hmm
2019-10-09T12:04:51Z thijso: Are there big pros/cons to either?
2019-10-09T12:05:05Z Shinmera: Commonqt is SBCL/CCL/ECL, but Qt4 only.
2019-10-09T12:06:01Z thijso: As I'm working on an android thing now (and maybe in the future iOS), that would be a requirement. Does CommonQt run on android?
2019-10-09T12:06:08Z thijso: Guess I should just try...
2019-10-09T12:06:28Z bitmapper: how would i convert a nested list like (1 ((2 3) 4 (5 (6 7 8)))) into (1 ((2 3) (4 (5 (6 (7 8))))))
2019-10-09T12:07:02Z Shinmera: thijso: I don't think Qt4 will, so no
2019-10-09T12:07:09Z bitmapper: basically take any sublist that is length > 2 and make it into a list with the next item
2019-10-09T12:07:26Z thijso: thanks, Shinmera
2019-10-09T12:07:34Z thijso: saves me time wasted trying. ;)
2019-10-09T12:07:41Z Shinmera: My condolences about having to deal with mobile though
2019-10-09T12:08:11Z Shinmera: I don't suppose you considered MOCL and native UI an option?
2019-10-09T12:08:28Z bitmapper: thijso: there's also lambdanative if you are ok with scheme
2019-10-09T12:08:39Z thijso: Heh... it's actually not that bad. Or, it wasn't until I thought to update some versions, and ended up in a broken state and unable to build any working apps anymore...
2019-10-09T12:09:08Z thijso: Well, MOCL is not free, right? Or is that another one I have in mind?
2019-10-09T12:09:14Z Shinmera: It is not.
2019-10-09T12:09:21Z thijso: bitmapper: nah, think I'll stick with CL
2019-10-09T12:09:25Z bitmapper: cool
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2019-10-09T12:09:44Z bitmapper: i prefer cl too :)
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2019-10-09T12:09:51Z bitmapper: been messing with shen lately though
2019-10-09T12:10:12Z thijso: Actually, I ended up with EQL5-android because that gave me CL on android. The only Qt part I use now is a blank text field where I dump output... ;)
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2019-10-09T12:15:52Z pjb: bitmapper: perhaps you would consider reading Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/  http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
2019-10-09T12:16:10Z Shinmera: thijso: Seems a bit overblown for that.
2019-10-09T12:16:19Z bitmapper: how is that related?
2019-10-09T12:19:27Z pjb: bitmapper: it teaches you how to write a function to convert a nested list like (1 ((2 3) 4 (5 (6 7 8)))) into (1 ((2 3) (4 (5 (6 (7 8)))))).
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2019-10-09T12:41:41Z thijso: Shinmera: yeah, it is, but eventually I'll be using more of Qt to build a (minimal) UI for my app of course. I'm currently still working on underlying libraries that I need for my app to even function...
2019-10-09T12:42:44Z thijso: I've looked into some examples in ecl that show how to run CL on android, but it looked like it only did it by some byte-compiler stuff, not by actually creating cross-compiled libs and using those
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2019-10-09T12:43:24Z thijso: I'd like to figure out how to do that, though. Just have an NDK shell that loads up a Lisp loop or whatever and runs CL code from cross-compiled libs
2019-10-09T12:43:54Z thijso: But, as I already have a system that works (or, at least, I *had* one), I'm focussing on that
2019-10-09T12:43:57Z thijso: for now
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2019-10-09T13:33:09Z p_l: thijso: I think EQL is the only game in town for Qt on mobile
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2019-10-09T13:33:21Z p_l: MOCL + gui in code native for platform is another
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2019-10-09T13:49:17Z p_l: Shinmera: it appears that manually downloading the binaries worked
2019-10-09T13:49:38Z Shinmera: Well, at least something.
2019-10-09T13:49:39Z p_l: or at least, commonqt and qtools compile and load
2019-10-09T13:50:28Z Shinmera: try (ql:quickload :qtools-helloworld) (qtools-helloworld:main)
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2019-10-09T14:01:27Z phoe: Oh gods. Half a year in this new dayjob project has caused my programming skills to recede *MASSIVELY*.
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2019-10-09T14:03:53Z p_l: Shinmera: the macos dylibs aren't exactly usable ...
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2019-10-09T14:04:16Z Shinmera: p_l: Hm?
2019-10-09T14:04:43Z p_l: Shinmera: linker-hardcoded paths for what I assume your user directory
2019-10-09T14:05:06Z Shinmera: that... should not be the case.
2019-10-09T14:06:48Z p_l:  /Users/linus/qt4/install/lib/libQtGui.4.dylib (compatibility version 4.8.0, current version 4.8.7)
2019-10-09T14:06:58Z Shinmera: Can you try (qt-libs::fix-dylib-collection (uiop:directory-files qt-libs:*standalone-libs-dir* (make-pathname :type "dylib" :defaults uiop:*wild-path*)))
2019-10-09T14:08:08Z p_l: only present in one lib, qtlibs!commonqt.dylib
2019-10-09T14:08:20Z Shinmera: hum.
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2019-10-09T14:09:16Z Shinmera: Shame on me for not testing thoroughly then
2019-10-09T14:09:52Z p_l: Error opening shared library /Users/pl/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/qt-libs-20190710-git/standalone/qtlibs!commonqt.dylib : dlopen(/Users/pl/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/qt-libs-20190710-git/standalone/qtlibs!commonqt.dylib, 10): Library not loaded: /Users/linus/qt4/install/lib/libQtGui.4.dylib
2019-10-09T14:09:52Z p_l: Referenced from: /Users/pl/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/qt-libs-20190710-git/standalone/qtlibs!commonqt.dylib
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2019-10-09T14:10:05Z phoe: Shinmera: have you considered setting up Travis CI for auto-building qt-libs and friends?
2019-10-09T14:10:12Z phoe: Or any other CI, for the matter?
2019-10-09T14:10:18Z p_l: that's after running the command you gave
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2019-10-09T14:10:33Z Shinmera: Looks like the auto-replace doesn't do its job for that library, then
2019-10-09T14:10:41Z Shinmera: You'll have to manually change it with install_name_tool
2019-10-09T14:10:50Z p_l: oh, and I had to link the libs to dynamic linker's fallback path ($HOME/lib) because some stuff couldn't find each other even earlier
2019-10-09T14:11:15Z Shinmera: phoe: I have waste so many hours with debugging these shitty ass CI environments that I have completely given up on CI that isn't on my own machines.
2019-10-09T14:11:32Z Shinmera: phoe: So, I have considered it, but won't deal with it.
2019-10-09T14:12:08Z phoe: Shinmera: understood.
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2019-10-09T14:15:41Z p_l: got CCL's kernel to explode after replacing paths around, in FIND-QCLASS
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2019-10-09T14:18:04Z Shinmera: :/
2019-10-09T14:18:18Z p_l: doing one more trick that I hope will work
2019-10-09T14:23:44Z p_l: compiling from source after using qt4 from a certain custom homebrew tap
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2019-10-09T14:26:07Z p_l: ok, that's a dead end for now too, need to add missing libs somehow
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2019-10-09T15:24:27Z phoe: Geez. It took me much more efford than I thought it would take to write this piece of code.
2019-10-09T15:24:41Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1509#1509
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2019-10-09T15:25:10Z phoe: And I am still not really happy with it because of the SPLIT-SEQUENCE call in the beginning that literally splits the paragraph into words.
2019-10-09T15:25:46Z phoe: The funniest thing is that it's still buggy, heh.
2019-10-09T15:25:58Z dlowe: word wrapping?
2019-10-09T15:26:02Z phoe: dlowe: yep
2019-10-09T15:26:59Z phoe: Okay, found the bug and fixed it.
2019-10-09T15:27:42Z dlowe: https://github.com/TempusMUD/cl-tempus/blob/master/src/support/editor.lisp#L157
2019-10-09T15:28:29Z dlowe: also this one-line insanity: https://github.com/dlowe-net/irken/blob/master/irken.tcl#L130
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2019-10-09T15:29:06Z phoe: dlowe: your algorithm breaks on non-alpha-chars, which means that "...foo, bar..." might have the comma separated from "foo".
2019-10-09T15:29:28Z phoe: Or at least that is how I understood it from a glance.
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2019-10-09T15:30:35Z phoe: But, if I replace `position-if-not #'alpha-char-p` with `position-if #'whitespacep`, it might work the way I'd like it to...
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2019-10-09T15:32:56Z dlowe: yeah, you might want a custom thing, though, so it breaks on hyphens
2019-10-09T15:33:30Z Xach: here's my dumb thing - https://github.com/xach/linebreaker
2019-10-09T15:34:16Z phoe: holy cow, that's object oriented now
2019-10-09T15:34:24Z dlowe: a library!
2019-10-09T15:34:36Z dlowe: nice
2019-10-09T15:34:44Z Xach: i wanted to use it for both ascii text and variable-width fonts and didn't want to write it twice.
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2019-10-09T15:34:55Z Xach: (well, i wrote it six or seven times before i settled on that)
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2019-10-09T15:35:47Z phoe: Xach: I kind of didn't expect that I'd need to file an issue on it right after I see it
2019-10-09T15:36:01Z phoe: s/see/saw/
2019-10-09T15:36:50Z Xach: MIGHTFIX
2019-10-09T15:37:12Z phoe: :(
2019-10-09T15:37:42Z dlowe: Light up the sharplisper-signal
2019-10-09T15:37:56Z Oladon_wfh: Nice, I've wanted to do a MUD in Lisp before.
2019-10-09T15:38:28Z dlowe: writing MUD engines is a lot easier than running a MUD :)
2019-10-09T15:39:07Z phoe: dlowe: the principle of "no users, no problem"
2019-10-09T15:39:08Z Oladon_wfh: Heh, indeed. I've been heavily involved in that sphere over the years, including as an Immortal.
2019-10-09T15:39:22Z dlowe: I never brought the lisp version up to par with the C version, though.
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2019-10-09T15:40:40Z Oladon_wfh: That's fair. The stock MUDs are pretty complex.
2019-10-09T15:41:19Z dlowe: oh, it could easily work as a stock MUD
2019-10-09T15:41:28Z Oladon_wfh: The MUD I was on did a complete rewrite of Diku many years ago (still in C), and it was quite intense
2019-10-09T15:42:01Z dlowe: it's got everything except all the skill, spell, and special implementations
2019-10-09T15:42:08Z Oladon_wfh: Nice
2019-10-09T15:42:14Z Oladon_wfh: Yeah, that could work as a basic stock
2019-10-09T15:42:28Z Oladon_wfh: Heh, you know what'd be fun
2019-10-09T15:42:30Z dlowe: I just ragequit my own mud before I had a chance to finish
2019-10-09T15:42:43Z Oladon_wfh: Putting that together with my PFRPG combat engine :P
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2019-10-09T15:43:31Z Xach: phoe: does linebreaker do what you need?
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2019-10-09T15:43:40Z Xach: de facto, not de jure?
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2019-10-09T15:43:56Z dlowe: I have a less-Diku-like MUD engine that I was working on, too, but didn't have the energy to start one from scratch
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2019-10-09T15:45:39Z phoe: Xach: I'm not sure yet - I'll need to check it out later today, as I have to scoot in a few.
2019-10-09T15:46:16Z phoe: I'll check it out later though. Does it have any test cases I can look at?
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2019-10-09T15:46:51Z Xach: phoe: ha ha ha no
2019-10-09T15:47:00Z Xach: to my shame
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2019-10-09T15:47:11Z Xach: but it was written 9 years ago, before anyone knew that tests were good
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2019-10-09T15:47:31Z Xach: and there were only 18 CL test frameworks instead of 45
2019-10-09T15:48:09Z phoe: 55*
2019-10-09T15:48:41Z phoe: Xach: I'll take a look at it and perhaps write some tests for it later. (Any particular framework that I should use?)
2019-10-09T15:49:47Z Xach: phoe: i like fiasco
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2019-10-09T15:51:58Z phoe: Xach: T
2019-10-09T15:52:23Z pfdietz: "Let's look in QL to see which test frameworks are popular."   (looks)  "Let's look in QL for projects that have any tests."
2019-10-09T15:56:14Z Lycurgus: it would be great if cl had a semantics that allowed something like quickcheck in hs
2019-10-09T15:56:47Z Lycurgus: most test setups seem like busy work to me
2019-10-09T15:56:58Z Lycurgus: with some exceptions
2019-10-09T15:57:28Z Lycurgus: mostly determined by how unchanging the code is
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2019-10-09T16:29:46Z Lycurgus: s/busy work/make work/
2019-10-09T16:30:00Z Lycurgus: well both actually
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2019-10-09T16:44:31Z Shinmera: phoe: What's wrong with uax-14
2019-10-09T16:45:05Z Xach: that's the name of the thing i couldn't find earlier!!
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2019-10-09T19:13:18Z LdBeth: hello
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2019-10-09T19:17:57Z dlowe: Hi
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2019-10-09T20:27:18Z pfdietz: Lycurgus:  ansi-test has a simple 'make-random-element-of-type' function.  It's quite useful for testing various CL built-ins, and has found lots of bugs in various implementations.
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2019-10-09T20:42:26Z Xach: D/win 3
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2019-10-09T21:08:04Z sebboh: Does anyone know of a CL implementation of something like guix or nix?
2019-10-09T21:10:17Z pjb: quicklisp would be the closest.
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2019-10-09T21:13:05Z LdBeth: why you want a link farm in cl?
2019-10-09T21:15:47Z sebboh: LdBeth: funny you should mention that, I am specifically curious about whether or not the next such tool will use symlinks in that way...  theres-got-to-be-a-better-way.gif?
2019-10-09T21:16:42Z LdBeth: just get everything in hackage consistent.gif
2019-10-09T21:16:53Z sebboh: Maybe some filesystem-snapshot-mount-point-abstraction thing, eh?
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2019-10-09T21:17:25Z sebboh: LdBeth: bit of a language barrier there for me
2019-10-09T21:18:03Z LdBeth: so you're not haskell user
2019-10-09T21:19:19Z sebboh: never could find the ∴ on my keyboard. :P
2019-10-09T21:19:22Z LdBeth: the reason why people develop package mngrs like nix is because haskell is the language that has most of the libraries are not compatible with each others
2019-10-09T21:20:41Z LdBeth: well you could get similar probs in C++, but most of the time this problem doesn't exists in CL
2019-10-09T21:20:46Z sebboh: LdBeth: I think we have different use cases.  I'm sick of graphviz breaking...
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2019-10-09T21:22:21Z LdBeth: well, I just build a minimal version of graphviz not producing raster imgs but postscript/svg
2019-10-09T21:22:22Z LdBeth: then I use other tools like ps2png
2019-10-09T21:23:23Z sebboh: hm that would solve all the renderer problems!  Nice.  But, I've had build problems with layout stuff too
2019-10-09T21:24:22Z edgar-rft: ∴ is the sign for blind people here
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2019-10-09T21:24:33Z LdBeth: ∴ is the sign for blind people here
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2019-10-09T21:26:17Z LdBeth: for gentoo users the only problematic case is python :P
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2019-10-09T21:27:28Z pjb: sebboh: you map it with xmodmap, or type C-x 8 RET THEREFORE RET
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2019-10-09T21:28:14Z LdBeth: symbols beside those used in APL are useless!
2019-10-09T21:28:39Z sebboh: the latter, yes. bind that to some sequence.. But that would reveal that there's more than one thing I don't understand about haskell. :P
2019-10-09T21:29:39Z sebboh: (or maybe it would reveal that I know you can type 7-bit clean ascii in haskell always and not be limited in anyway because the glyph feature is like.. basically macro expansion or something?)
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2019-10-09T21:31:21Z LdBeth: ligatured OTF fonts?
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2019-10-09T22:09:04Z phoe: Shinmera: "foo      bar" is wrong with uax-14
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2019-10-09T22:20:01Z phoe: or rather, it isn't a bug, uax-14 is working as intended
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2019-10-09T22:20:16Z phoe: it's just me who doesn't have a use case for uax-14-like behaviour
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2019-10-09T22:33:03Z asarch: One stupid question: any function to get prime numbers?
2019-10-09T22:34:18Z _death: ironclad:generate-prime
2019-10-09T22:34:38Z asarch: Thank you!
2019-10-09T22:34:48Z asarch: Thank you very much _death :-)
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2019-10-09T22:35:52Z _death: np.. btw, ironclad should also export modular-inverse, since it's a useful operation
2019-10-09T22:36:17Z pjb: _death: nope.
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2019-10-09T22:36:39Z pjb: _death: you want ironclad:generate-safe-prime, or com.informatimago.common-lisp.arithmetic.primes:compute-primes-to
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2019-10-09T22:37:57Z _death: depends on the use case
2019-10-09T22:37:58Z asarch: I would like to plot this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK32jo7i5LQ
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2019-10-09T22:38:20Z asarch: "Why do prime numbers make these spirals?"
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2019-10-09T22:40:33Z pjb: asarch: you will prefer com.informatimago.common-lisp.arithmetic.primes:compute-primes-to then.
2019-10-09T22:40:42Z pjb: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.arithmetic.primes:compute-primes-to 64) #| --> #(2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61) |#
2019-10-09T22:40:59Z _death: or implement it yourself using the sieve of eratosthenes
2019-10-09T22:41:27Z pjb: It's an Eratostene sieve, so it's limited by array-total-size-limit.
2019-10-09T22:42:27Z asarch takes notes....
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2019-10-09T22:44:31Z aeth: pjb: there are ways to get around that
2019-10-09T22:44:39Z pjb: Of course.
2019-10-09T22:44:58Z aeth: easiest way to double your limit is to skip multiples of 2 and just always put 2 in front
2019-10-09T22:44:58Z pjb: First, I use a bit-vector.  A vector of integers could store much more bits.
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2019-10-09T22:48:29Z _death: apparently ironclad has ironclad::generate-small-primes, "for mathematical interest"
2019-10-09T22:48:51Z pjb: Yes, but it's internal.
2019-10-09T22:48:56Z pjb: non-exported.
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2019-10-09T22:51:50Z _death: looks like an interesting youtube channel, anyhow
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2019-10-09T22:55:17Z akoana: GEA (Teacher's Guide and Audio)
2019-10-09T22:59:50Z akoana: oh sorry, wrong window :(
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2019-10-09T23:08:25Z asarch: Another stupid question: how can I install com.informatimago.common-lisp.arithmetic.primes?: (ql:system-apropos :com.informatimago) -> ; No value
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2019-10-09T23:13:50Z pjb: asarch: ( cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects ; mkdir -p com  ; cd com ; git clone https://github.com/informatimago/lisp.git informatimago )
2019-10-09T23:14:05Z pjb: asarch: then: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp)
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2019-10-09T23:15:58Z asarch: So beautiful!
2019-10-09T23:16:00Z asarch: Thank you!
2019-10-09T23:16:07Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
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2019-10-10T00:06:31Z patrixl: asarch: according to their gitlab readme, they also are on quicklisp, just need to know the exact names: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago
2019-10-10T00:06:50Z patrixl: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp) etc
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2019-10-10T00:26:35Z pjb: patrixl: the web sites and readme are lagging.
2019-10-10T00:27:19Z pjb: But it's in the ultralisp quicklisp distribution, so if you install ultralisp, you will be able to just quickload it.
2019-10-10T00:27:27Z pjb: https://ultralisp.org
2019-10-10T00:28:09Z patrixl: oh ok.. haven't looked into ultralisp yet
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2019-10-10T01:05:07Z pritambaral: Anybody know a lib for converting byte sizes into human-readable ones? Like, 1024 => "1kib".
2019-10-10T01:05:33Z loke: I've written a fel, but never put it in a library
2019-10-10T01:05:43Z loke: few
2019-10-10T01:08:06Z lxbarbosa: hey, is it wrong to NOT be too precise on what a function should do? eg: run through list, if there is 'xx' do action
2019-10-10T01:08:34Z lxbarbosa: I could do: for x in j do action, but I think its too annoying
2019-10-10T01:09:38Z loke: lxbarbosa: You have to be a bit more precise in your question. I'd like to answer, but I don't understand what you're asking.
2019-10-10T01:11:16Z lxbarbosa: loke: parsing a list and once if finds an strings that match do action... is it wrong to be so unprecise? I reckon, one should always be sure what the list has before hand
2019-10-10T01:11:34Z lxbarbosa: s/if finds/it finds
2019-10-10T01:17:29Z lxbarbosa: lol
2019-10-10T01:22:32Z loke: You mean something like this?
2019-10-10T01:22:53Z loke: (my-magic-function "foo bar test" #'my-action)
2019-10-10T01:23:12Z loke: and MY-ACTION would be called three times with the substrings "foo" "bar" and "test"?
2019-10-10T01:24:45Z Bike: i mean, it's fine to specify preconditions...
2019-10-10T01:25:59Z lxbarbosa: loke: yes
2019-10-10T01:26:32Z lxbarbosa: is it too abstract or 'whatever'?
2019-10-10T01:27:08Z loke: lxbarbosa: No, why would it? If you have use for such function, why not? The only issue here is what you would name it such that it's (somewhat) obvious what it does.
2019-10-10T01:27:41Z loke: SPLIT-STRING-AND-CALL-ON-SUBSTRINGS would be reasonably clear.
2019-10-10T01:28:09Z lxbarbosa: loke: I mean, aint it easier to find and exploit in those abstract functions?
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2019-10-10T01:29:04Z lxbarbosa: imagine that function would to download a file and someone can just rename that list to some virus file :D
2019-10-10T01:29:26Z lxbarbosa: no need to alter original code but on-the-fly
2019-10-10T01:30:57Z loke: lxbarbosa: No. That is incorrect.
2019-10-10T01:33:34Z lxbarbosa: ok :D
2019-10-10T01:37:24Z loke: lxbarbosa: I think you're touching on the issue of injection attacks. That's a much broader issue, and has to do with how you treat untrusted data (i.e. data that getsarrives into the system from sources that you don't control)
2019-10-10T01:37:39Z no-defun-allowed: lxbarbosa: Then it's someone's fault passing it a function that does something that produces a virus.
2019-10-10T01:37:59Z lxbarbosa: loke: yep, still need to learn more about attacks
2019-10-10T01:38:41Z lxbarbosa: no-defun-allowed: indeed. There always is such a people, sadly
2019-10-10T01:39:17Z no-defun-allowed: Then you have bigger problems if someone can put a function in your program that can produce a virus.
2019-10-10T01:39:45Z loke: lxbarbosa: It's a difficult topic. I've spent several years at work trying to teach this to the develeopers. It's something all programmers need to understand, not just so that they can write secure code, but also so that they don't spend time implementing useless security features that doesn't help security (your misunderstanding fell into the second category)
2019-10-10T01:40:12Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps I should add a virus scanner to SBCL. Something like `(car '("foo" "bar" "Invoke-Mimikatz" "baz"))` should signal an error, since the caddr could be used for virusing.
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2019-10-10T01:48:53Z lxbarbosa: loke: can you share any book or article on that topic? if it aint asking too much :D
2019-10-10T01:49:57Z lxbarbosa: no-defun-allowed: Although Ive said 'virus' I meant any vicious file, cant even name those :D
2019-10-10T01:50:52Z loke: lxbarbosa: Hmm, perhaps. Let me check.
2019-10-10T01:50:59Z lxbarbosa: soon, I will port my python scripts to lisp, just to see how much it differ from each other approach :D
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2019-10-10T01:57:31Z loke: lxbarbosa: I have to admit that I don't know of a good book that purely talks about secure coding in a language-agnostic context
2019-10-10T01:58:27Z loke: There is a Microsoft book called “Writing Secure Code (Developer Best Practices)” which, as far as I understand (I didn't read it), talk about these things. The examples are all Windows-specific though, but that shouldn't take away from the general points.
2019-10-10T02:00:53Z loke: Another Microsoft source: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/msdn10/aa570401(v=msdn.10)
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2019-10-10T02:45:47Z shinohai: ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
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2019-10-10T02:47:04Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think I want to know what form will come after that, actually.
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2019-10-10T02:58:18Z White_Flame: I'd expect it to have lots of commas
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2019-10-10T03:02:19Z p_l: iirc writing secure code was heavy on C/C++ stuff
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2019-10-10T03:08:54Z Lycurgus: intellij-cl looks worthwhile, but tedious to install
2019-10-10T03:11:34Z Lycurgus: and igess no sense of what it offers over slime other than being intellij
2019-10-10T03:12:59Z no-defun-allowed: Not being intellij sounds like a compliment if my Java using friend is a good source on it.
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2019-10-10T04:48:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-10T06:41:08Z Shinmera: phoe: your layouter should ignore subsequent spaces anyway!
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2019-10-10T07:03:05Z phoe: beach: morning
2019-10-10T07:03:16Z phoe: Shinmera: I do not have a layouter :(
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2019-10-10T07:04:54Z Shinmera: the layouter is whichever algorithm selects the break opportunities.
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2019-10-10T07:19:42Z jdz: I might be misremembering exact figures, but according to Microsoft around 80–90% of security problems (remote code execution) are due to memory management problems (buffer overflows and use-after-free).
2019-10-10T07:21:15Z jdz: Here's one from a quick interwebs search, that quotes 70%: https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-70-percent-of-all-security-bugs-are-memory-safety-issues/
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2019-10-10T07:31:26Z jdz: And instead of improving the tools (i.e., programming languages/runtimes), they push the burden of securing software to kernel/hardware.
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2019-10-10T07:32:51Z phoe: obviously
2019-10-10T07:33:23Z phoe: no one can expect a programmer to choose a proper tool for their programming job.
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2019-10-10T07:36:15Z no-defun-allowed: bUt C iS fAsTeR
2019-10-10T07:37:26Z loke: no-defun-allowed: Rust!
2019-10-10T07:37:31Z no-defun-allowed: loke: delete this
2019-10-10T07:37:40Z loke: That will fix all memory issues while still being TEH F4STEST!
2019-10-10T07:38:01Z phoe: unsafe {
2019-10-10T07:39:08Z no-defun-allowed: drop(std); }
2019-10-10T07:39:18Z shka__: this does not surprise me at all
2019-10-10T07:39:22Z Shinmera: I mean, if y'all are gonna hoot and holler about unsafe, let's talk about people using safety 0 in Lisp.
2019-10-10T07:39:52Z shka__: every segfault is potential exploit…
2019-10-10T07:40:32Z no-defun-allowed: I should stop but a lot of the standard library uses unsafe, probably moreso than Lisp
2019-10-10T07:40:49Z shka__: Shinmera: safety 0 in a hot function can make sense, the problem is that sometimes it is used accross the whole project
2019-10-10T07:40:52Z shka__: which is insane
2019-10-10T07:41:30Z no-defun-allowed: We were bitten by safety 0 in jsown quite a bit. Got unhandled memory faults and all cause we wrote (:obj (stuff)) instead of (:obj . stuff)
2019-10-10T07:41:32Z jdz: And sometimes people think their hot loop is correct and use safety 0 and then it turns out it's not.
2019-10-10T07:41:33Z Shinmera: My point was to say that language evangelism (and damning) is dumb.
2019-10-10T07:41:45Z phoe: ^
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2019-10-10T07:44:01Z loke: no-defun-allowed: Have you looked at that utterly ridiculous Remacs probject?
2019-10-10T07:44:19Z loke: Just searcing a random source file you'll see it completely riddled with ‘unsafe’
2019-10-10T07:44:37Z loke: But hey! Not it's rust, therefore better. No?
2019-10-10T07:44:41Z loke: s/Not/Now/
2019-10-10T07:44:44Z Duuqnd: I really don't understand the point of Remacs.
2019-10-10T07:45:00Z no-defun-allowed: loke: I also have to stop with this too, but it sounds very anti-Climacsictic.
2019-10-10T07:45:06Z loke: Duuqnd: It's a typical “let's rewrite it in rust” project. Just a bit more stupid than the others.
2019-10-10T07:45:35Z loke: Anyone who actually _understand_ Emacs understands that the goal must be to get _rid_ of the low-level code. Not replace it.
2019-10-10T07:46:02Z no-defun-allowed: My favourite is the one that rewrites GNU Hurd basically, but it's actually vaguely usable (not to the extent of Mezzano, no quake), but it's still trash cause Unix.
2019-10-10T07:46:10Z jdz: loke: But maybe in 10 or 20 years they'll have a better emacs lisp, written in Rust?
2019-10-10T07:46:12Z Duuqnd: loke: Yeah, how can someone work on Emacs code and still say "yee rewrite in rust"
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2019-10-10T07:46:29Z loke: jdz: Apparently. Yes?
2019-10-10T07:46:56Z no-defun-allowed: Then when it was time to learn redox reactions in chemistry class I had flashbacks. Never got the hang of chemistry either.
2019-10-10T07:47:02Z jdz: loke: Better as in they've been talking on Emacs mailing list about moving to Common Lisp (for performance reasons).
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2019-10-10T07:47:16Z loke: Duuqnd: That's the thing, they don't “work” on the Emacs code. They don't even understand it. They just mechanically replace function with the Rust workalikes. Whcih also explains why most of these fucntions have ‘unsafe’ in them.
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2019-10-10T07:47:48Z loke: jdz: Yes, that has at least been mentioned. Although the likelyhood of that happening is also absolutely tiny.
2019-10-10T07:48:17Z loke: But... at least it's nonzero when looking at a 20-year horizon. The likelyhood of Remacs becoming something better than real Emacs is zero.
2019-10-10T07:48:20Z no-defun-allowed: I also heard about troubles with unexec (similar to sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die but it also has to deal with the C side) too.
2019-10-10T07:48:26Z jdz: Right, mostly because too much of Emacs is written in C (my opinion).
2019-10-10T07:48:41Z loke: no-defun-allowed: unexec was removed in the recent version of Emacs. They use the portable dumper now.
2019-10-10T07:48:54Z loke: It's very nice.
2019-10-10T07:49:06Z no-defun-allowed: Neat.
2019-10-10T07:49:25Z no-defun-allowed: The name unexec is funny though.
2019-10-10T07:49:26Z Duuqnd: jfz: I think it'd be great to see Emacs written in just Lisp some day.
2019-10-10T07:49:39Z Duuqnd: jdz*
2019-10-10T07:49:40Z loke: The portable dumper basically portably serialises the object graph and writes it to a file. When emacs starts it can use that heap dump to pre-populate the heap.
2019-10-10T07:50:16Z loke: Another benfit is that you can dump the heap at any time, creating a snapshot of an emacs session that you can load later (there is a flag to Emacs that tells it which dump file to load)
2019-10-10T07:50:26Z Shinmera: Duuqnd: there's been plenty of attempts to make Emacs in Lisp.
2019-10-10T07:50:41Z loke: Climacs for example.
2019-10-10T07:51:01Z Duuqnd: Yeah, but none of them have managed to replace GNU Emacs.
2019-10-10T07:51:17Z Shinmera: The latest would be Lem, which seems to have actual users, so that's something.
2019-10-10T07:51:25Z jdz: Vim is succeeding in replacing Emacs.
2019-10-10T07:51:38Z Duuqnd: no
2019-10-10T07:51:46Z loke: Duuqnd: I don't think the goal sound be to replace GNU Emacs in the general case. The goal should be to be useful to at least a nonzero number of users.
2019-10-10T07:52:35Z Duuqnd: Yeah, that makes sense. It's just that there's a lot of Emacs packages that my workflow kind of depends on.
2019-10-10T07:52:48Z no-defun-allowed: Sad there's only terminal and electron interfaces for Lem though.
2019-10-10T07:53:01Z loke: no-defun-allowed: also roswell
2019-10-10T07:53:20Z Duuqnd: What would be nice would be an Emacs clone written in Common Lisp with some sort of semi-automatic porting tool for Emacs Lisp -> CL.
2019-10-10T07:53:31Z Duuqnd: I don't know how feasible that is though.
2019-10-10T07:53:51Z no-defun-allowed: That too, but it's probably usable without roswell.
2019-10-10T07:54:14Z loke: Duuqnd: It's feasible (or, even better: It would be easy to implement an Emacs lisp runtime for CL). However, the problem isn't Elisp per se. The issue is the behaviour of Emacs that Elisp depends on. Replicating that would bea nightmare. In fact, it would be futile.
2019-10-10T07:54:31Z no-defun-allowed: It should be possible, I think? Elisp is rougly a subset of Common Lisp with editor stuff on top.
2019-10-10T07:54:57Z Duuqnd: loke: Maybe some of the more commonly used quirks and features could be emulated/translated by the porting tool.
2019-10-10T07:55:19Z loke: no-defun-allowed: But you'd need a full implementation of a lot of behjaviours... For example, you need to replicate the behaviour of the Emacs-style string properties and overlays.
2019-10-10T07:55:21Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: the problem is the standard library.
2019-10-10T07:55:28Z Duuqnd: It'd be a tough project, but it could work.
2019-10-10T07:55:36Z loke: A sane, new, implementation of Emacs shouldn't do it like that.
2019-10-10T07:56:00Z no-defun-allowed: Shinmera, loke: true.
2019-10-10T07:56:07Z loke: So you'd need to bodge on something that implements the Emacs style overlay behaviour on top.
2019-10-10T07:56:54Z Duuqnd: What about manually porting/replacing most things, but having rough automatic porting for more obscure things.
2019-10-10T07:57:10Z phoe: if you want to avoid the "let's replicate legacy emacs behaviour" nightmare, then you *have* to rewrite a lot of elisp code to something that doesn't depend on that behaviour. that's an either-or.
2019-10-10T07:57:37Z phoe: and a rewrite of the emacs C layer in Rust/CL/TeX/whatever won't fix this particular issue.
2019-10-10T07:58:10Z no-defun-allowed: A TeX rewrite would be oddly interesting though.
2019-10-10T07:58:28Z Duuqnd: phoe: Yeah, many things need to be remade from scratch, but automatic porting could exist for when you don't want to port/rewrite old code yourself.
2019-10-10T07:58:58Z phoe: Duuqnd: do you mean a compatibility layer that accepts legacy emacs behaviour and outputs new saner behaviour?
2019-10-10T07:59:17Z phoe: That simply moves the problem elsewhere as now you have emacs-as-a-library.
2019-10-10T07:59:29Z Duuqnd: I'm thinking that it could do that as a part of converting Elisp into CL.
2019-10-10T07:59:59Z Duuqnd: And only using that for placeholders/things you don't want to replace yourself.
2019-10-10T08:00:09Z phoe: And 95% of the code still goes through that library. And now you have bugs that happen inside the emacs-as-a-library, and on the interface between it and the editor below, and also compatibility issues that will nonetheless arise.
2019-10-10T08:00:54Z Duuqnd: You could replace a majority of it with new things.
2019-10-10T08:01:09Z shka__: i think that at this point we would be better of to simply go with emacs style editor without emacs compatibility
2019-10-10T08:01:16Z Duuqnd: It'd just be nice to be able to make porting of old packages easier.
2019-10-10T08:02:16Z Duuqnd: shka__: Well, there's a lot of packages that would be quite a pain to rewrite. I don't think a lot of people are very excited about re-implementing Magit, for example.
2019-10-10T08:02:27Z shka__: true, but personally i just need slime, magit, git-timemachine, evil, parenedit, smartparens, avy and helm
2019-10-10T08:02:56Z flip214: dlowe: ping... please take a look at my local-time issues on github, thanks a lot!
2019-10-10T08:02:58Z jdz: shka__: I don't think you've included the dependencies of those libraries.
2019-10-10T08:03:08Z shka__: i didn't
2019-10-10T08:03:08Z Duuqnd: Yeah, that right there is 8 packages that would need to be remade.
2019-10-10T08:03:27Z Duuqnd: There's also a lot more packages that other people like using.
2019-10-10T08:03:27Z shka__: well, it is doable imho
2019-10-10T08:03:33Z jdz: Also, I shudder every time I look at the org-mode sources.  I still use org-mode.
2019-10-10T08:03:34Z phoe: of course it's doable
2019-10-10T08:03:44Z phoe: the only issue is that it needs to be done
2019-10-10T08:04:18Z phoe: and that requires manpower, time, and motivation
2019-10-10T08:04:28Z Duuqnd: phoe: that, and we don't have a standard "Newmacs" to begin porting things to.
2019-10-10T08:04:43Z phoe: and if these three things existed in abundance, then we wouldn't even be discussing this current issue right now
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2019-10-10T08:04:46Z shka__: there is that beach climacs the second
2019-10-10T08:05:03Z phoe: emacs is simply Good Enough™ despite its clusterfuck internals.
2019-10-10T08:05:11Z shka__: clim is portable, which is good
2019-10-10T08:05:22Z shka__: it also has a good font rendering nowdays
2019-10-10T08:05:29Z loke: Can someone talk me out of this idea I have to implement a new editor in CLIM?
2019-10-10T08:05:32Z phoe: Duuqnd: the two promising newmacses are climacs and lem.
2019-10-10T08:05:40Z phoe: loke: /xkcd standards
2019-10-10T08:06:11Z phoe: loke: https://xkcd.com/927/
2019-10-10T08:06:17Z Shinmera: loke: Help me with my new UI library instead
2019-10-10T08:06:26Z phoe: Shinmera: what is it?
2019-10-10T08:06:30Z Duuqnd: shka__: CLIM is great, but it looks really ugly. That's probably easy to fix, but I haven't seen a single good looking CLIM program
2019-10-10T08:06:36Z shka__: loke: i won't talk you out of this, i personally still want to write something in clim, i just don't have that much time
2019-10-10T08:07:00Z loke: Duuqnd: I've tried to make Cliamxima as nice as possible.
2019-10-10T08:07:30Z Shinmera: phoe: https://github.com/shirakumo/alloy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbLBze3beOo
2019-10-10T08:07:51Z phoe: Shinmera: this one, I have seen it before
2019-10-10T08:07:53Z shka__: Shinmera: this is done from scratch?
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2019-10-10T08:08:01Z Shinmera: https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/1179015513969762305
2019-10-10T08:08:03Z Shinmera: shka__: yes
2019-10-10T08:08:14Z shka__: how impressive!
2019-10-10T08:08:42Z Duuqnd: loke: I don't know much about CLIM, but from what I've seen, it's pretty difficult to make it look nice.
2019-10-10T08:08:43Z Shinmera: Thanks
2019-10-10T08:09:12Z shka__: Duuqnd: it has dated look, but that's not critical
2019-10-10T08:09:14Z loke: Duuqnd: Well, that also depends on what you mean by “look nice”.
2019-10-10T08:09:38Z Duuqnd: I just don't like the whole monochrome black text on white background thing.
2019-10-10T08:10:09Z Duuqnd: If there's an easy way to customize the colors, I'm in.
2019-10-10T08:10:10Z shka__: neither do i, but it would be very shallow to just focus on that
2019-10-10T08:10:36Z Duuqnd: Yeah, but it's hard to focus on the cool stuff when my eyes are burning.
2019-10-10T08:11:02Z phoe: so, basically, we want a dark mode for CLIM
2019-10-10T08:11:07Z shka__: Shinmera: seriously, i have no idea how do you keep cranking out this stuff
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2019-10-10T08:11:31Z Duuqnd: phoe: Well, full color customization would be better, but basically, yeah.
2019-10-10T08:11:31Z Shinmera: shka__: Nothing better to do :(
2019-10-10T08:11:52Z shka__: ok, that works
2019-10-10T08:12:19Z Shinmera: Well, technically I do have better things to do, like focusing on university studies
2019-10-10T08:12:29Z Shinmera: Never been good at that
2019-10-10T08:12:30Z shka__: "technically"
2019-10-10T08:12:48Z Duuqnd: What could be better than making cool things in Lisp?
2019-10-10T08:12:51Z phoe: I focused so hard on these that I dropped out.
2019-10-10T08:13:04Z Shinmera: Duuqnd: securing a future with good financial support I guess.
2019-10-10T08:13:16Z no-defun-allowed: Making cool things in Lisp and getting a degree to get a good job, probably.
2019-10-10T08:13:41Z no-defun-allowed: But good language variety to one of the universities I looked at was "Java and C♯" ):
2019-10-10T08:16:18Z jdz: no-defun-allowed: Really, MUSIC SHARP SIGN?
2019-10-10T08:16:35Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, it's C sharp.
2019-10-10T08:17:07Z no-defun-allowed: And I have a compose key I have no other use for, other than writing ☭ slightly faster.
2019-10-10T08:17:40Z jdz: I use C-x 8 RET.
2019-10-10T08:18:10Z Duuqnd: jdz: Woah, I had no idea that was a thing.
2019-10-10T08:18:14Z no-defun-allowed: I don't use erc, so I can't benefit from Emacs key things.
2019-10-10T08:18:27Z jdz: I also don't use erc, because I use circe:)
2019-10-10T08:18:46Z no-defun-allowed: In fact, this web client is so shitty that even macOS configured to use Emacs keybinds don't work.
2019-10-10T08:20:52Z Duuqnd: no-defun-allowed: Why use a web client? There should be plenty of IRC clients on macOS.
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2019-10-10T08:22:25Z Nistur: I miss university. So much time to do what you want. It felt hectic and busy at the time but, looking back...
2019-10-10T08:22:38Z no-defun-allowed: Duuqnd: Because I use IRC via matrix.org, which has its own problems I'm not in the mood to cover, and that has basically 0 good clients other than the web one.
2019-10-10T08:22:46Z Nistur: oops, I didn't realise I was scrolled up
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2019-10-10T09:45:57Z scymtym: phoe: did you say CLIM dark mode? https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/mcclim-dark-theme.png
2019-10-10T09:47:30Z phoe: Duuqnd: ^
2019-10-10T09:48:34Z Duuqnd: scymtym: :)
2019-10-10T09:48:40Z Duuqnd: Can it be customized by the user?
2019-10-10T09:49:01Z scymtym: Duuqnd: working on that
2019-10-10T09:49:36Z Duuqnd: Sounds great. Is there documentation somewhere on how it works?
2019-10-10T09:50:05Z scymtym: CLIM in general or the theme stuff?
2019-10-10T09:50:16Z Duuqnd: The theming.
2019-10-10T09:50:29Z Duuqnd: Also, is it part of CLIM or program specific?
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2019-10-10T09:51:43Z scymtym: the mechanism will probably be a part of McCLIM (it is not in the CLIM standard). applications will be customizable individually
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2019-10-10T09:52:41Z Duuqnd: That sounds really cool. It'd be great if you can change the settings in one place and have all CLIM programs follow that.
2019-10-10T09:52:45Z scymtym: but i think we should finish double buffering ( https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/mcclim-double-buffering.ogv ) and fsm-based gadgets/animations ( https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/mcclim-gadgets-fsm-2.ogv ) first
2019-10-10T09:54:45Z Duuqnd: Yeah, that seems more important.
2019-10-10T09:58:21Z scymtym: changing themes would be like this https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/mcclim-gadgets-fsm-3.ogv
2019-10-10T09:59:00Z scymtym: (the artifacts are from the capture software)
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2019-10-10T10:03:41Z Duuqnd: I guess my "CLIM ugly" excuse isn't going to hold much longer.
2019-10-10T10:04:17Z Duuqnd: I'll have to learn how to use it some time.
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2019-10-10T10:04:59Z scymtym: when the time comes: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/static/manual/mcclim.html
2019-10-10T10:05:55Z shka__: scymtym: very nice!
2019-10-10T10:06:49Z scymtym: shka__: thanks
2019-10-10T10:08:14Z d4ryus: scymtym: that looks amazing!
2019-10-10T10:09:44Z scymtym: d4ryus: thanks
2019-10-10T10:10:13Z scymtym: we have lots of work ahead of us to make those prototypes into something actually usable
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2019-10-10T10:15:27Z d4ryus: make sure to post videos from time to time to get people exited :)
2019-10-10T10:17:28Z scymtym: maybe some find in-browser CLIM exciting? https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/mcclim-broadway-7.ogv
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2019-10-10T10:44:00Z phoe: scymtym: you have a choice now, either you post that last video to /r/common_lisp or I post it there
2019-10-10T10:44:03Z phoe: this is freaking amazing stuff
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2019-10-10T10:48:58Z d4ryus: very exiting yes! but i have seen it already :)
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2019-10-10T10:50:25Z phoe: I have not
2019-10-10T10:50:38Z phoe: and I can extrapolate from this that many other people haven't seen it either
2019-10-10T10:53:48Z scymtym: phoe: go ahead if you like, but make sure to note that it is a prototype. for context: the communication with the browser uses a modified version of GTK's broadway protocol ( https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/gtk-broadway.html )
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2019-10-10T10:59:07Z phoe: https://old.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/dfwbiz/a_prototype_of_mcclim_in_browser_using_the_gtk/
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2019-10-10T11:23:36Z prxq: Hi, does anyone here have an archived copy of the RDNZL library? It seems to have vanished from the net. I followed the links at cliki etc, all download links that I've found are dead.
2019-10-10T11:24:20Z prxq: The original developer didn't answer my email either
2019-10-10T11:24:31Z prxq hopes he is well :-(
2019-10-10T11:28:02Z phoe: Xach: maybe you do
2019-10-10T11:29:00Z phoe: prxq: I have found https://github.com/Lovesan/bike
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2019-10-10T11:33:02Z prxq: phoe: thanks. My customer has a ton of legacy code based on RDNZL, that could be an upgrade path. Need to get the old stuff running first, though.
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2019-10-10T12:11:08Z ralt: prxq: https://common-lisp.net/viewvc/rdnzl/ maybe?
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2019-10-10T12:12:34Z ralt: the doc has this warning though: "Note that the CVS repository at common-lisp.net is usually not in sync with the current release version!"
2019-10-10T12:13:03Z prxq: ralt: thanks!
2019-10-10T12:13:19Z ralt: it looks like it has rdnzl-cpp 0.7.1 and rdnzl 0.12.2
2019-10-10T12:13:54Z ralt: latest rdnzl is 0.13.3, so you'll be a bit late there
2019-10-10T12:14:01Z ralt: rdnzl-cpp is good
2019-10-10T12:14:37Z ralt: Edi Weitz was fairly responsive as of a couple of years ago though, so I'm surprised you couldn't reach out to him
2019-10-10T12:15:07Z prxq: I wrote him a week ago. Maybe he is in hollidays.
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2019-10-10T12:26:20Z samlamamma: I've got a couple of Sexprs I'd like to print out as a Graphviz graph (w/o explicit cons cells, so straight up the AST). Anyone done a similar thing with a library that they can point me to?
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2019-10-10T12:27:41Z samlamamma: Hm, CL-graph has a graph->dot
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2019-10-10T12:32:18Z scymtym: samlamamma: cl-dot is handy for that
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2019-10-10T12:39:10Z samlamamma: scymtym: Aah, it's a nice library. I might implement what I want
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2019-10-10T13:37:59Z prxq: ralt: do you know if there is a newer rdnzl-cpp?
2019-10-10T13:38:46Z ralt: prxq: the doc was saying it was the latest version, that's all I know though
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2019-10-10T13:39:18Z ralt: this one https://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/ediware/rdnzl/_darcs/current/doc/
2019-10-10T13:39:47Z prxq: I found the lisp part of 0.13.3, so I think I can solve this by compiling the DLL
2019-10-10T13:40:19Z ralt: it mentions latest rdnzl-cpp version is 0.7.1 and the latest svn commit says "import 0.7.1", so I assume it's the same
2019-10-10T13:40:41Z ralt: I really don't know anymore than that though
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2019-10-10T15:56:00Z varjag: is there a portable way to do read-char-no-hang but on a binary stream?
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2019-10-10T16:00:02Z pjb: varjag: nope.
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2019-10-10T16:01:14Z pjb: varjag: binary streams were considered to be always non-interactive, so it didn't make sense.
2019-10-10T16:02:18Z pjb: varjag: of course, nowadays, there are implementation-specific extensions such as socket-stream, that are both binary and interactive, so implementations may provide implementation specific to do the equivalent of read-char-no-hang.
2019-10-10T16:02:42Z pjb: varjag: or, if the implementation is consistent and considers socket-streams to be interactive, you can write (when (listen s) (read-byte s))
2019-10-10T16:03:05Z varjag: right, am trying to read off tcp stream
2019-10-10T16:03:40Z pjb: check the behavior of listen in your implementation on tcp streams, and if good, (when (listen s) (read-byte s))
2019-10-10T16:03:49Z varjag: k, thanks!
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2019-10-10T17:08:22Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (add-hook 'my-php-mode-hook
2019-10-10T17:08:28Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hi. Why this not working?
2019-10-10T17:09:36Z Josh_2: isn't that emacs config?
2019-10-10T17:10:06Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Yes, of course.
2019-10-10T17:10:18Z Josh_2: Then you should go to #emacs I think
2019-10-10T17:10:29Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Maybe someone know.
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2019-10-10T17:27:00Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: That is not a reason to ask off-topic questions.  Lurk harder.
2019-10-10T17:27:15Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK.
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2019-10-10T18:56:31Z fiveop: I wanted to try vulkan in CL unter linux. cl-vulkan seems unfinished and vktk is only set up for windows and mac so far. Is there anything else?
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2019-10-10T19:03:35Z pjb: fiveop: CL doesn't run under linux, but above linux.  So you might want to try vulkan in CL uber linux.
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2019-10-10T19:04:14Z pjb: fiveop: thankfully, mac is a unix, so a port of vktk to linux should be fairly easy.
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2019-10-11T00:38:17Z ebrasca: Do you know some lybrary to convert pdf to list?
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2019-10-11T00:44:31Z ebrasca: I have found solution!
2019-10-11T00:45:02Z pjb: ebrasca: I would advise: (subseq (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:binary-file-contents  #P"/Users/pjb/Downloads/1.54inch_e-Paper_Datasheet.pdf") 0 20) -> #(37 80 68 70 45 49 46 53 13 37 226 227 207 211 13 10 52 54 48 53)
2019-10-11T00:45:10Z pjb: coerce to 'list if you insist on a list.
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2019-10-11T00:46:25Z ebrasca: pjb: I have used pdftohtml and now I can make some macro to extract all assambler instructions.
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2019-10-11T00:49:27Z pjb: ok
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2019-10-11T03:21:45Z zdm: Is there anyone working on another backend besides CLX for McCLIM?
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2019-10-11T03:49:24Z fe[nl]ix: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-11T03:49:25Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=b0f77481 will be valid until 04:00 UTC.
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2019-10-11T04:17:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-11T04:18:22Z beach: zdm: For McCLIM-related questions, you may have better luck in #clim.
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2019-10-11T04:20:37Z zdm: beach: Okay, thanks
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2019-10-11T04:43:13Z ebrasca: Morning beach!
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2019-10-11T05:58:11Z 
2019-10-11T05:58:11Z names: ccl-logbot trn jprajzne1 vhost- Mon_Ouie vaporatorius crypto quazimodo ramus_ isoraqathedh_ bkhl jgkamat_ gko` jprajzne makomo ggole yoeljacobsen shifty Duuqnd_ vlatkoB mindthelion karlosz toorevitimirp xkapastel jeosol semz Lord_of_Life ebzzry __jrjsmrtn__ prxq_ clothespin raghavgururajan Jesin khisanth_ ebrasca Oladon scymtym jfb4 doublex gxt edgar-rft C-16 rotty micro bjorkintosh jonatack zdm rumbler3_ charh gabiruh_ Posterdati niceplaces mingus
2019-10-11T05:58:11Z names: manualcrank schweers davr0s davr0s_ _whitelogger zaquest Krystof kirkwood frgo malm Cymew remexre tokik sjl ft nckx beach hiredman wooden sebboh Intensity hdasch lavaflow lonjil stepnem stux|RC cpape loke zymurgy bkst drot legit lnostdal shenghi bhyde mfiano kiboneu dlowe jdz gabot fouric alandipert Demosthenex gigetoo simplegauss_ drdo ck_ TMA alca fiddlerwoaroof_ astronavt___ mulk danielvu2 x[LGWs4x4i]uG2N0 minion X-Scale fortitude_ keep-learning[m]
2019-10-11T05:58:11Z names: malaclyps[m] munksgaard[m] phoe zcid flazh SystemXProc moldybits hjudt jgodbout joast ``Erik Colleen froggey fengshaun d4ryus shaakyamuni[m] fynzh[m] mstdnuser[m] iarebatman eriix[m] Gnuxie[m] Godel[m] djeis[m] hiq[m] Jachy no-defun-allowed katco sciamano akanouras liambrown LdBeth nonlinear[m] greaser|q dtw patrixl DGASAU troydm sindan mathrick ravndal stzsch adolby CrazyEddy myrkraverk sellout- Nistur Tordek zmt01 glamas Mandus stux|RC-only iskander
2019-10-11T05:58:11Z names: fitzsim cartwright zagura voidlily aindilis sammich Fade emacsomancer lemoinem borodust pjb cmatei xantoz White_Flame datajerk h11 dvdmuckle dilated_dinosaur oldtopman acolarh grobe0ba nightfly nydel rumpelszn ski kini Kaisyu7 housel jackhill guna dmiles HDurer femi copec abbe APic dxtr madand shinohai davsebamse vsync aeth srji SumoSud0 mbrumlow SyrupThinker Shinmera grumble thijso zbrown jxy easye _death Remavas ozzloy xristos jasom superjudge p9fn
2019-10-11T05:58:11Z names: zaltekk michalisko samebchase Ziemas funnel basketha1 scal_ wigust null_ptr snits eschatologist markasoftware chipolux PuercoPop eagleflo stylewarning guaqua galdor cyberlard payphone phadthai johs zigpaw koenig jerme_ Ober swflint spacedbat |3b| dim shka__ sgithens eMBee physpi drmeister postit_ gendl chewbranca gjnoonan jhei asedeno boeg tazjin tfb DrDuck XachX pent @p_l theBlackDragon mrSpec gingerale Finnfinn DataLinkDroid2 parisienne rme selwyn
2019-10-11T05:58:11Z names: capadoodle Xach flip214 jcob MinnowTaur cods hvxgr Patzy surrounder teej Kaisyu karstensrage pok aap ssake billstclair Ankhers bmansurov lukego saturn2 Nikotiini cross jackdaniel justinmcp Lord_Nightmare luis Aritheanie sukaeto ecraven emma creat sveit zotan equwalp tomaw dkrm kbtr Grauwolf beaky dru1d uplime sbryant Kabriel SlashLife leo_song jurov azrazalea MetaYan kqr sepi` specbot CommanderViral1 AdmiralBumbleBee sshirokov mood bytesighs jsatk Grue``
2019-10-11T05:58:11Z names: @fe[nl]ix Blkt banjiewen interruptinuse fowlduck kilimanjaro rvirding cpt_nemo jlpeters splittist l1x mgsk ioa lieven knobo1 lispyone add^_ antoszka
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2019-10-11T06:04:41Z phoe: Morniiiing
2019-10-11T06:05:37Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe
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2019-10-11T06:13:22Z beach: Hello phoe.
2019-10-11T06:13:56Z beach: phoe: Too bad that your day job is taking up so much time from more interesting activities.
2019-10-11T06:14:02Z phoe: beach: :(
2019-10-11T06:14:12Z phoe: I know, right?
2019-10-11T06:14:44Z beach: phoe: Are you still planning to come to ELS?
2019-10-11T06:15:03Z phoe: beach: this year, yes.
2019-10-11T06:15:10Z beach: Great!
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2019-10-11T15:30:18Z beach: I am only here briefly.  I need to fix dinner in a few minutes.
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2019-10-11T15:30:35Z beach: er, sorry, not meant for #lisp
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2019-10-11T15:31:25Z Josh_2: Afternoon all
2019-10-11T15:31:34Z beach: Hey Josh_2.
2019-10-11T15:33:04Z Josh_2: beach: Do you use github primarily?
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2019-10-11T15:33:50Z beach: Yes.  Not happy with it, but it's for historical reasons.
2019-10-11T15:34:12Z Josh_2: What is your github?
2019-10-11T15:34:27Z beach: robert-strandh I think.
2019-10-11T15:35:07Z Josh_2: Okay sweet :) Thanks
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2019-10-11T18:03:35Z rmg1917: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-11T18:03:36Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=519e9026 will be valid until 18:15 UTC.
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2019-10-11T18:50:47Z LdBeth: i always wondering what is registration for
2019-10-11T18:51:06Z LdBeth: good morning evweyone
2019-10-11T18:51:10Z dlowe: it adds you to a registry
2019-10-11T18:51:17Z dlowe: and then you're registered
2019-10-11T18:51:54Z LdBeth: yes but for what?
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2019-10-11T18:52:58Z dlowe: for gitlab.common-lisp.net
2019-10-11T18:53:06Z dlowe: like it says in the url
2019-10-11T18:53:51Z LdBeth: ah i see
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2019-10-11T19:58:35Z flip214: dlowe: ping... please take a look at my local-time issues on github, thanks a lot!
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2019-10-11T19:58:51Z dlowe: flip214: I have taken a look at them
2019-10-11T19:58:59Z flip214: at least offer an opinion which way I may fix them to get them upstream
2019-10-11T19:59:04Z flip214: oh, good, thanks!
2019-10-11T19:59:57Z dlowe: I don't actually know which one are yours
2019-10-11T20:00:19Z flip214: the new ones, Oct 7 and Oct 9   ;)
2019-10-11T20:02:46Z dlowe: Yeah, I hadn't decided what my opinion is.
2019-10-11T20:03:16Z flip214: don't hurry
2019-10-11T20:04:02Z dlowe: On the one hand, they're trivial to implement in the library. But they're also trivial to implement by a user.
2019-10-11T20:04:35Z flip214: outside the library risks having it implemented multiple times
2019-10-11T20:04:45Z dlowe: oh no!
2019-10-11T20:06:04Z dlowe: anyway, I don't like to say no, so I'm still mulling it over.  I really hate to have both :min and :minute to an API, and I also am not going to break other people just so the API can be more consistent
2019-10-11T20:06:11Z dlowe: See: Hyrum's Law
2019-10-11T20:06:23Z flip214: looking
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2019-10-11T20:06:41Z flip214: oh, yeah
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2019-10-12T00:44:27Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/B3q8J9z6r2/
2019-10-12T00:44:42Z vms14: I've stolen the style of perl CGI.pm
2019-10-12T00:44:49Z vms14: tags are really functions
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2019-10-12T00:45:16Z vms14: so I've made a macro to create the same functions perl cgi has
2019-10-12T00:45:19Z vms14: (generator div)
2019-10-12T00:45:26Z vms14: (generator p)
2019-10-12T00:45:54Z vms14: (div (p "oh...") '(id maindiv))
2019-10-12T00:46:41Z vms14: I guess I'll another macro for autoclosing tags
2019-10-12T00:49:19Z vms14: I'll need*
2019-10-12T00:51:35Z vms14: oh, I like it
2019-10-12T00:51:45Z vms14: what problems will have doing this?
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2019-10-12T00:53:50Z vms14: It seems it will just work
2019-10-12T00:53:52Z vms14: (format t (div (div (p "oh...") '(id thediv) '(oh mycat)) '(meh "MEH")))
2019-10-12T00:53:58Z vms14: <div meh="MEH"><div id="thediv" oh="mycat"><p>oh...</p></div></div>
2019-10-12T00:58:33Z Xach: vms14: there's a project already that defines all tags in a package nanmed "<" and it is funny to read
2019-10-12T00:59:01Z vms14: Xach this way you can define your own "new" tags
2019-10-12T00:59:07Z Xach: (<:head (<:title "Foo") ... (<:body (<:h1 "Hello) ...)))))
2019-10-12T00:59:20Z Xach: maybe it's even <:head>, I don't remember.
2019-10-12T00:59:39Z Xach: the audacity of the package name will be with me forever, though
2019-10-12T01:01:28Z fiddlerwoaroof_: xhtmlambda?
2019-10-12T01:01:32Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Anyways, I just discovered that the #p macro has a high chance of ruining your day.
2019-10-12T01:03:03Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I built a little GUI app in Lispworks for some AWS stuff and when I shared it with my coworkers, it didn’t work for them. This lead me to discover that it’s evaluated to a pathname object at read tome
2019-10-12T01:03:42Z fiddlerwoaroof_: So that ~ is expanded to the home directory on the build machine and not the end-user’s home directory.
2019-10-12T01:03:56Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof_: that depends on the implementation
2019-10-12T01:04:15Z Xach: ~ is not standard - user-homedir-pathname is the standard thing
2019-10-12T01:04:23Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof_: but that's an interesting failure mode!
2019-10-12T01:04:24Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Yeah.
2019-10-12T01:04:34Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof_: i had that problem with logical pathnames and #p"..." vs "..."
2019-10-12T01:04:44Z Xach: and whether the logical host was defined in time
2019-10-12T01:04:54Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I spent several hours debugging this.
2019-10-12T01:04:59Z Xach: ouch
2019-10-12T01:05:28Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof_: does it defer the attempt to home-ize it if you use a string to designate the pathname instead?
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2019-10-12T01:08:21Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I didn’t try that, I just switched to merge-pathnames and user-homedir-pathname.
2019-10-12T01:08:22Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Anyways, if you use fukamachi’s aws library, my fork will have a fix for this in a couple minutes :)
2019-10-12T01:10:35Z vms14: now Idk how to make a loop and use this macro
2019-10-12T01:10:36Z vms14: xD
2019-10-12T01:10:53Z Josh_2: (loop :do (macro .. ) ) xD
2019-10-12T01:11:14Z vms14: the problem is I try to (dolist (tag '(p main section article)) (generator tag))
2019-10-12T01:11:52Z vms14: but tag isn't evaluated
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2019-10-12T01:14:01Z no-defun-allowed: You would have to dolist at compile or read-time.
2019-10-12T01:14:16Z aeth: vms14: I mean, sure, that looks like it works, but I personally would rather have a series of write-foos than "<~a~~{~~{~~^ ~~a=\"~~a\"~~}~~}>~~a</~a>"
2019-10-12T01:14:42Z no-defun-allowed: Something like (macrolet ((generator-list (&rest list) (cons 'progn (loop for name in list collect (list 'generator name))))) (generator-list p main section article))
2019-10-12T01:14:45Z aeth: vms14: Also keep in mind that when you're generating format strings you basically commit to writing a macro since it's much more efficient for FORMAT to know what its format strings are ahead of time because FORMAT can be very optimized
2019-10-12T01:14:46Z vms14: aeth: the only complaint I have with this format is I know there is no need to repeat arg arg
2019-10-12T01:14:57Z vms14: how was to make format use the last argument?
2019-10-12T01:15:41Z vms14: ty no-defun-allowed
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2019-10-12T01:20:41Z vms14: ~:*
2019-10-12T01:20:43Z vms14: oh
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2019-10-12T01:32:35Z vms14: ty no-defun-allowed, now seems to work
2019-10-12T01:32:50Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/8NKsXgnpnH/
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2019-10-12T01:55:46Z vms14: oh I didn't realize I cannot have two childs
2019-10-12T01:57:52Z vms14: (ul (concatenate 'string (li "oh") (li "meh")))
2019-10-12T01:58:58Z vms14: I could create a shortcut for concatenate 'string
2019-10-12T01:58:59Z vms14: xD
2019-10-12T01:59:01Z Josh_2: wouldn't it be better to just be able to go (ul (li "ree") (li "ree")) and have it all join up nice?
2019-10-12T01:59:11Z vms14: Josh_2: yes
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2019-10-12T02:07:09Z vms14: (defmacro & (&body body) `(concatenate 'string ,@body))
2019-10-12T02:07:14Z vms14: (ul (& (li "oh") (li "meh")))
2019-10-12T02:07:17Z vms14 cries
2019-10-12T02:07:26Z Josh_2: xD
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2019-10-12T02:10:19Z Josh_2: I think I did it
2019-10-12T02:11:42Z Josh_2: no I didn't haha vms14
2019-10-12T02:12:02Z vms14: well I should do something like a typecase
2019-10-12T02:14:51Z Josh_2: vms14: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1510#1510
2019-10-12T02:15:20Z Josh_2: but doesn't pass arbitrary :keywords and jam them into the tag args
2019-10-12T02:19:15Z vms14: I'll think on the syntax I want
2019-10-12T02:19:57Z vms14: I guess it will something like (a "text" :href "somelink")
2019-10-12T02:20:12Z vms14: so just look if it's a keyword
2019-10-12T02:21:11Z vms14: if keyword, then eat the next "value" and put ~a=\"~a\" keyword value
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2019-10-12T02:40:42Z vms14: I have something very rudimentary
2019-10-12T02:40:59Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/Kb8BDKz4gH/
2019-10-12T02:41:12Z vms14: the last function
2019-10-12T02:42:52Z vms14: oh it's buggy
2019-10-12T02:42:53Z vms14: xD
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2019-10-12T02:45:31Z vms14: now seems to work
2019-10-12T02:46:07Z vms14: just added a when (car args) to the whole labeled function
2019-10-12T02:47:27Z vms14: (defun make-text-buffer () (make-array 0 :adjustable t :fill-pointer t :element-type 'character))
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2019-10-12T02:57:34Z vms14: i don't like this implementation
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2019-10-12T03:05:21Z vms14: but meh, it works
2019-10-12T03:05:22Z vms14: xD
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2019-10-12T03:08:04Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/rjsF4G2n2f/
2019-10-12T03:08:18Z vms14: I need to change the autoclose tag macros
2019-10-12T03:08:49Z vms14: and I'd like to redo this generator macro
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2019-10-12T03:42:32Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/HxHK2vKKc5/
2019-10-12T03:42:50Z vms14: I like the syntax a lot, not the implementation, but I could improve it some day
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2019-10-12T04:46:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-12T04:56:28Z MichaelRaskin: Good morning
2019-10-12T04:56:41Z beach: Hello MichaelRaskin.
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2019-10-12T05:20:08Z beach: I was thinking, now that we have a portable reader (Eclector) would it be possible (and worthwhile) to also have a portable printer?
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2019-10-12T05:24:42Z MichaelRaskin: I guess most of the print-object methods defined use the standard printer for the objects' components. So consistency (or coverage) might be rather hard to achieve
2019-10-12T05:25:23Z MichaelRaskin: Although I don't know if there are any inconsistencies in the standard printer across implementations
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2019-10-12T05:26:30Z beach: Why does the fact that the "standard printer" is used make it hard to achieve consistency?
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2019-10-12T05:29:28Z MichaelRaskin: OK, what should be achieved compared to the standart print-object generic function?
2019-10-12T05:30:51Z beach: Nothing.  Just the possibility of a common library rather than a separate one for each Common Lisp implementation.
2019-10-12T05:31:32Z beach: I am always trying to cut down on the combined maintenance burden for free Common Lisp implementations.
2019-10-12T05:34:59Z beach: These things come up when I need some module for SICL that does not seem very implementation specific to me, but I also don't see an existing library.
2019-10-12T05:36:58Z beach: So, why does the fact that the "standard printer" is used make it hard to achieve consistency?
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2019-10-12T05:37:26Z MichaelRaskin: No, with such a motivation it doesn't create any problems
2019-10-12T05:37:36Z beach: Oh, OK.
2019-10-12T05:38:03Z MichaelRaskin: I thought that the goals include implementation-independent output consistency when used as a user-level library
2019-10-12T05:38:14Z MichaelRaskin: My bad, sorry
2019-10-12T05:39:00Z beach: OK.  No, on the contrary, such a module should make it possible for each implementation to customize the output.
2019-10-12T05:39:22Z beach: My fear is the opposite, i.e. that there would be no common code then.
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2019-10-12T05:42:15Z MichaelRaskin: I would also fear that efficient printing of floating-point numbers would end up target-platform-dependent
2019-10-12T05:43:17Z beach: Oh?
2019-10-12T05:43:47Z beach: I was thinking of incorporating the latest research on that topic into such a library.
2019-10-12T05:44:18Z beach: In fact, ck_ has been working on an implementation of that research.
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2019-10-12T05:51:00Z MichaelRaskin: Ah, there is integer-decode-float
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2019-10-12T05:53:23Z MichaelRaskin: I guess float-radix is always two outside a few museums
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2019-10-12T06:22:01Z stylewarning: Hello lisp friends
2019-10-12T06:22:44Z beach: Hey stylewarning.
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2019-10-12T06:32:29Z no-defun-allowed: Hello stylewarning
2019-10-12T06:32:51Z stylewarning: What’s going on in the Lisp universe
2019-10-12T06:33:13Z stylewarning: Trick question, the Lisp universe is our universe.
2019-10-12T06:35:00Z beach: stylewarning: I was able to program the new version of Clouseau to inspect SICL bootstrapping objects in a readable way.
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2019-10-12T06:36:57Z Shinmera: I'm slowly making progress on my UI toolkit.
2019-10-12T06:37:07Z stylewarning: beach: what happened to music notation or whatever it was precisely that was of interest to you
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2019-10-12T06:38:13Z beach: stylewarning: There has been progress with standardization.  Version 2 of Gsharp (called Clovetree) is going to use this standard and a free music font.
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2019-10-12T06:39:17Z beach: stylewarning: jackdaniel is working on the GUI for Clovetree, and I have vague plans for the model.
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2019-10-12T06:40:08Z beach: stylewarning: But I am working 100% on SICL right now.
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2019-10-12T06:41:25Z Shinmera: In minor news, the mmap library now no longer requires osicat.
2019-10-12T06:41:38Z stylewarning: Shinmera: great!
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2019-10-12T09:58:24Z selwyn: a lisp game jam is underway
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2019-10-12T10:43:13Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hi. Is fashion to iterate pair of array?
2019-10-12T10:43:38Z no-defun-allowed: (loop for value1 across array1 for value2 across array2 ...)
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2019-10-12T10:50:53Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I want (loop for (a b) in (list (list 1 2) (list 3 4) (list 5 6))).
2019-10-12T10:52:31Z no-defun-allowed: That's not an array.
2019-10-12T10:54:15Z no-defun-allowed: Unless you know something I don't, and you have a sequence that is simultaneously a list and an array, those aren't reconcilable.
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2019-10-12T11:09:41Z asdf_asdf_asdf: no-defun-allowed, thanks. So how iterate for #2A array?
2019-10-12T11:19:11Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (loop for x across #2A((1 2) (3 4)) do (princ x))
2019-10-12T11:19:16Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Not working.
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2019-10-12T17:58:31Z flip214: minion: memo for asdf_asdf_asdf: Look at ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE and ROW-MAJOR-AREF
2019-10-12T17:58:32Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell asdf_asdf_asdf when he/she/it next speaks.
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2019-10-12T18:12:10Z buffergn0me: minion: they is a polite pronoun
2019-10-12T18:12:13Z minion: i agree - they is a polite pronoun
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2019-10-12T21:42:18Z fiddlerwoaroof_: hi o/
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2019-10-13T03:04:33Z remexre: with cffi, is there a way to "late-bind" which library name is used? e.g. glfw can load as libglfw or libglfw3, but it appears that it gets "frozen" to whatever name was actually found
2019-10-13T03:05:19Z remexre: so if my build machine uses libglfw.so.3.1, and my target machine uses libglfw.so.3.2, the binary fails to run
2019-10-13T03:05:48Z remexre: (I guess that's not directly related to libglfw vs libglfw3... /shrug)
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2019-10-13T03:12:11Z LdBeth: seems the only thing you do is recompile the project
2019-10-13T03:12:49Z LdBeth: with the library symlinks to appripate locations
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2019-10-13T03:18:57Z LdBeth: remexre: you may do that by hacking directly with the lower level FFI provided by the implementation
2019-10-13T03:19:44Z remexre: er, what I want is a binary that will work with any libglfw.so
2019-10-13T03:20:26Z remexre: like if I linked C w/ -lglfw, it'd link to libglfw.so and the symlinks would resolve to .so.3.1 or .so.3.2
2019-10-13T03:20:53Z remexre: that's the behavior I wnat
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2019-10-13T03:23:28Z LdBeth: Well this is not possible for regular executable binary compiled from languages like C, you know ;0
2019-10-13T03:24:21Z LdBeth: So it is not a required feature for distributing your app as other Unix softwares
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2019-10-13T03:29:40Z remexre: huh?
2019-10-13T03:30:24Z remexre: er, my point is that there's a slight behavioral difference between gcc -l and cffi; I don't think there's any fundamental difference in capabilities
2019-10-13T03:33:00Z LdBeth: then you just need to redefine the cffi library to use only libglfw.so for example, and expect the target machine does have the symlink setup
2019-10-13T03:33:20Z remexre: once I compile a binary, it /doesn't/ use the symlink
2019-10-13T03:33:59Z remexre: I'm trying to make it use the symlink
2019-10-13T03:34:15Z remexre: instead, it hardcodes the full path
2019-10-13T03:34:39Z remexre: er, the full filename, I think; I believe it still searches the full LD_LIBRARY_PATH
2019-10-13T03:36:56Z saturn2: are you saving the image as an executable?
2019-10-13T03:37:39Z remexre: yeah, with asdf:image-op
2019-10-13T03:37:47Z saturn2: in that case, there may be runtime state created by .so.3.1 that isn't compatible with .so.3.2
2019-10-13T03:38:02Z LdBeth: ah, right, you have to rerun (cffi:use-foreign-library ) at some time if you save the image
2019-10-13T03:38:09Z remexre: is there any way to pinky-promise to cffi that there isn't? :P
2019-10-13T03:38:42Z saturn2: unload and reload the library
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2019-10-13T03:38:50Z remexre: would I be able to just toss the cffi:use-foreign-library at the top of my :entry-point ?
2019-10-13T03:38:57Z LdBeth: yes
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2019-10-13T03:43:10Z remexre: nope, didn't work
2019-10-13T03:43:28Z remexre: https://foundry.remexre.xyz/screenshots/1ec899df9502cae92e08f4ef98f045e66b60c0b6.png
2019-10-13T03:43:35Z remexre: where main is my :entry-point
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2019-10-13T03:46:13Z saturn2: you need to close it first https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#close_002dforeign_002dlibrary
2019-10-13T03:46:52Z saturn2: before saving the image
2019-10-13T03:47:21Z remexre: ah, ok
2019-10-13T03:49:18Z remexre: sweet, works (though I get warnings about undefined aliens, but that's a glfw bug)
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2019-10-13T04:15:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-13T04:18:41Z beach: I wonder whether some of the people who insist on using foreign code are converted Pythonista who therefore think that calling C code is the only way to get good performance from their Common Lisp code.
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2019-10-13T04:19:39Z Josh_2: mornin
2019-10-13T04:19:49Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2019-10-13T04:23:36Z remexre: beach: I mean, how else am I gonna get at GLFW / OpenGL
2019-10-13T04:23:44Z remexre: like, I'd love it if I had no FFI in my life
2019-10-13T04:26:32Z remexre: huh, looks like mezzano has opengl support via virgl
2019-10-13T04:26:46Z remexre: probably can't deliver a game as a VM image though :P
2019-10-13T04:27:14Z beach: Oh, wait, it's the prisoner's dilemma all over again.  If everyone who needs a library that exists only as foreign code instead wrote an equivalent in Common Lisp, then everybody would benefit from everybody's code.  But using foreign code is faster for each individual, so, like the prisoners, each individual chooses what benefits him/her.  The result is that everybody suffers.
2019-10-13T04:29:06Z Josh_2: Perhaps people wouldn't know how to write that libray in CL
2019-10-13T04:29:11Z remexre: beach: OpenGL requires interfacing with the hardware directly, in ways not documented by most vendors
2019-10-13T04:29:22Z beach: Josh_2: That can be learned.  It's part of the work.
2019-10-13T04:29:40Z beach: remexre: Then I would stay very, very far away from it.
2019-10-13T04:29:52Z remexre: beach: how else do I do accelerated 3d graphics...
2019-10-13T04:30:14Z remexre: like sure, CL can be as fast as C; C isn't fast enough by a few orders of magnitude
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2019-10-13T04:30:27Z beach: I have no answer for you.  Personally, I would then do something other than accelerated 3d graphics.
2019-10-13T04:30:48Z remexre: Then I think we're at an impasse...
2019-10-13T04:31:22Z beach: remexre: My observation was not about you.  It was about all the suffering I see here in #lisp by people using foreign code.
2019-10-13T04:31:29Z remexre: ah, fair
2019-10-13T04:34:23Z Josh_2: Sometimes you just don't have time to reimplement the library in CL
2019-10-13T04:35:49Z beach: Josh_2: You wouldn't always have to if each person took one chunk of the work.
2019-10-13T04:35:55Z Josh_2: I suppose
2019-10-13T04:36:14Z Josh_2: but sometimes knowledge is very specific, and requires a lot of investment
2019-10-13T04:36:26Z Josh_2: not everyone in our small community has time for such an investment
2019-10-13T04:36:31Z beach: But, from my analysis, I can see why it is not going to happen.
2019-10-13T04:37:03Z aeth: beach, remexre: Technically speaking, cl-opengl is mandatory. The rest of the stack (e.g. glfw or sdl), however, is not, but it would require a lot of work to write directly to WinAPI, xlib, etc., for all of the windowing code related to a 3D application.
2019-10-13T04:37:26Z aeth: (Okay, you could use something like cl-vulkan instead of cl-opengl, but you do need to use a graphics API because it's at the driver level... i.e. it's what the hardware speaks)
2019-10-13T04:38:07Z remexre: aeth: I mean, I've heard stories whispered in huddled corners of writing directly to the memory-mapped region of the GPU
2019-10-13T04:38:51Z remexre: so in theory (stretching the bounds of plausibility), you could reimplement all the libGL.so's in CL
2019-10-13T04:39:17Z aeth: remexre: Vulkan would be more possible because it does less
2019-10-13T04:39:51Z remexre: yeah
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2019-10-13T04:41:06Z aeth: But you'd still be interfacing with a C API, just this time the Linux kernel's
2019-10-13T04:41:12Z aeth: Unless you used Mezzano
2019-10-13T04:41:50Z remexre: hm
2019-10-13T04:42:01Z remexre: can one call mmap without a foreign call?
2019-10-13T04:42:11Z aeth: That is probably implementation-specific
2019-10-13T04:42:25Z remexre: yeah, e.g. abcl wouldn't have it
2019-10-13T04:42:34Z aeth: And technically speaking, an implementation could build in OpenGL or Vulkan functionality as well as SDL-like/GLFW-like functionality
2019-10-13T04:42:47Z aeth: Shifts the burden of where the foreign code is
2019-10-13T04:43:30Z remexre: fair, though I feel like there's a difference between implementing GLFW bindings in the implementation and reimplementing a GLFW-like on top of "plain syscalls"
2019-10-13T04:43:38Z saturn2: mmap is a system call, not a foreign call
2019-10-13T04:43:58Z saturn2: your implementation is definitely already doing lots of system calls
2019-10-13T04:44:16Z remexre: Sure, but mmap() is a C function in libc, and afaik there's not a nice library for doing "raw syscalls," so in practice you're gonna be calling the C one
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2019-10-13T04:44:38Z beach: remexre: Oh, but that is an excellent Common Lisp project.
2019-10-13T04:44:45Z saturn2: you could make a library for syscalls pretty easily
2019-10-13T04:45:10Z beach: remexre: In fact, I started such a project, and it would be great to have an implementation-independent way of making Unix system calls.
2019-10-13T04:45:34Z beach: remexre: Such a project could be done in one syscall a day.
2019-10-13T04:45:56Z remexre: saturn2: as in existing implementations expose something like https://golang.org/pkg/syscall/#Syscall6 ?
2019-10-13T04:45:57Z saturn2: i've used sbcl's sb-unix::int-syscall and just looked up the syscall number manually
2019-10-13T04:46:02Z remexre: oh, huh
2019-10-13T04:46:12Z saturn2: but having a library would be nicer, obviously
2019-10-13T04:46:29Z aeth: remexre: In SBCL, you should be able to do raw syscalls without using C because Linux has a stable ABI and SBCL allows you to do "inline asm" (not really "inline" because that's not how Lisp works, but the phrase is from other high level languages).
2019-10-13T04:46:41Z aeth: But that's just SBCL on Linux.
2019-10-13T04:46:50Z saturn2: you don't need asm, the function is already there
2019-10-13T04:46:56Z aeth: For Windows and macOS, the syscalls are an internal interface and you're expected to use the C libraries.
2019-10-13T04:46:56Z remexre: aeth: huh, TIL
2019-10-13T04:47:25Z aeth: saturn2: oh, even better
2019-10-13T04:47:36Z remexre: yeah, it shocked me when a normal windows update actually changed the syscall numbers, breaking an asm program I was writing
2019-10-13T04:47:58Z beach: Another thing I would stay very, very far away from then.
2019-10-13T04:48:05Z saturn2: don't use closed source OSes :)
2019-10-13T04:48:20Z aeth: remexre: probably not a normal one... Windows 10 is supposed to be the "last" Windows and they have fairly major updates every 6 months or so, not unlike a distro like Ubuntu or Fedora
2019-10-13T04:48:31Z aeth: (in fact, probably copied from them)
2019-10-13T04:48:50Z remexre: aeth: iirc this was an unnamed update, though it might've been one of the 6mo ones
2019-10-13T04:52:52Z aeth: remexre: https://j00ru.vexillium.org/syscalls/nt/64/
2019-10-13T04:53:09Z aeth: so that has the updates that changed the API
2019-10-13T04:53:20Z aeth: perhaps those were minor ones
2019-10-13T04:53:25Z aeth: Windows 10 is on the 8th iteration
2019-10-13T04:53:38Z aeth: The previous Windowses weren't that bad
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2019-10-13T04:54:17Z remexre: huh, nice
2019-10-13T04:54:44Z remexre: I dunno, if I were MS, I'd change the syscall numbers every update to force people not to depend on them :P
2019-10-13T04:55:21Z aeth: that's probably what they're doing
2019-10-13T04:55:28Z aeth: before they were tied to service packs
2019-10-13T04:55:36Z aeth: meanwhile, Linux's tables are, well, simpler, e.g. https://filippo.io/linux-syscall-table/
2019-10-13T04:55:50Z aeth: they only differ by arch
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2019-10-13T04:56:36Z remexre: idk, I'm kinda trying to go the Oberon route and build my own lang+OS; rn I'm going with s-exprs and image-based, but strongly typed and with hot code loading only at the "thread" level
2019-10-13T04:57:27Z no-defun-allowed: Just to check, is that statically typed (like Haskell) or strongly typed (like Common Lisp)?
2019-10-13T04:57:36Z beach: Ah, found it: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/
2019-10-13T04:58:00Z remexre: er, statically within "threads"; dynamically+strongly in IPC
2019-10-13T04:58:30Z remexre: with a dependent type system; right now just MLTT with inductive datatypes
2019-10-13T05:03:02Z remexre: probably going to have CL-style macros, though I'm not implementing this rn; it looks like most of what I'd want macros for, I could get with some sort of &block (like Ruby blocks)
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2019-10-13T07:35:22Z refusenick: How do I set the axes and labels in wxplot2d and wxplot3d to be white? I'm running Imaxima in Emacs with a dark background, and the default black labels look bad unless I go to a light background.
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2019-10-13T07:41:14Z refusenick: Here's what I'm talking about: https://0x0.st/zxBq.png
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2019-10-13T07:46:52Z beach: refusenick: Does your question have anything to do with Common Lisp?
2019-10-13T07:51:38Z no-defun-allowed: It's a picture of Maxima running in Emacs with some janky text rendering.
2019-10-13T07:55:12Z refusenick: beach: Isn't Maxima mostly a CL thing?
2019-10-13T07:55:28Z beach: I suppose so.
2019-10-13T07:55:52Z beach: refusenick: You might want to try Climaxima.  Then you would get help from loke.
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2019-10-13T09:53:14Z flip214: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-13T09:53:15Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=c29a8e5b will be valid until 10:00 UTC.
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2019-10-13T10:49:15Z flip214: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-13T10:49:15Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=5363ce94 will be valid until 11:00 UTC.
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2019-10-13T10:50:56Z lxbarbosa: someone @ reddit said that Paul Graham 'needs to learn how to code in Lisp, instead of creating new lisp languages(bel)'
2019-10-13T10:50:57Z lxbarbosa: lol
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2019-10-13T10:55:43Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=5363ce94 will be valid until 11:00 UTC.
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2019-10-13T14:13:15Z g_o: Hey I'm trying to deref an sb-alien array and get the following warning: https://pastebin.com/3HdKirHe. Any ideas?
2019-10-13T14:14:16Z g_o: (fixed link: https://pastebin.com/3HdKirHe)
2019-10-13T14:21:09Z beach: You might try in #sbcl.
2019-10-13T14:27:17Z Ober: but Lisp means CL, and the only legit variant today IS sbcl no?
2019-10-13T14:27:30Z p_l: `no
2019-10-13T14:27:34Z beach: *sigh*
2019-10-13T14:27:36Z p_l: there's no "only legit variant"
2019-10-13T14:27:47Z p_l: we have a lot of useful, compatible implementations
2019-10-13T14:28:49Z p_l: where possible, we try to recommend implementation-independent approaches, because they lead to healthier community
2019-10-13T14:28:56Z p_l: (and, IMO, better code)
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2019-10-13T14:31:08Z Ober: oh right, I forgot GCL
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2019-10-13T14:31:18Z p_l: ...
2019-10-13T14:31:24Z p_l: you *must* be trolling
2019-10-13T14:31:32Z beach: I think that is the case.
2019-10-13T14:31:34Z g_o: well, thanks anyway :)
2019-10-13T14:31:41Z beach: p_l: And you took the bait.
2019-10-13T14:31:43Z Ober: nope. No more than the idea that Lisp means CL
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2019-10-13T14:32:13Z Ober: just given the history here, almost always sbcl is recommended as the implementation, rarely an alternative
2019-10-13T14:32:22Z p_l: beach: I figured that at low traffic explaining that might be good, and assumed good faith
2019-10-13T14:32:28Z beach adds g_o as another data point to the statistics of suffering that was mentioned some 10 hours ago.
2019-10-13T14:32:53Z p_l: Ober: on Linux/amd64 platform, SBCL would indeed be my "default recommendations"
2019-10-13T14:32:55Z p_l: but not always
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2019-10-13T14:33:37Z p_l: SBCL has significant list of cons (pun intended), including long compilation times and being pretty memory hungry (it generates fast but big on memory code)
2019-10-13T14:33:39Z Ober: sure, I should have rephrased it, but endless effort fighting issues on other implementations tends to lead to the general advice to new folks to use sbcl outright.
2019-10-13T14:34:01Z p_l: Ober: if the new folks are on Mac or Windows, I generally recommend CCL
2019-10-13T14:34:30Z Ober: sbcl on mac is very good these days. imho
2019-10-13T14:34:37Z p_l: on some platforms I would actually recommend ECL, but not many people can claim to be "new" on those platforms
2019-10-13T14:34:57Z p_l: Ober: I'm also still pretty sure it's slower in following yet-another-brammage from Apple than CCL
2019-10-13T14:35:07Z p_l: (and it took months to get CCL running on Mojave, iirc)
2019-10-13T14:35:37Z selwyn: can you give an example of one of these platforms where you would recommend ecl?
2019-10-13T14:37:09Z Ober: as fare says adsf has a long tail of implementations supported. but I would not be recommending any of them.
2019-10-13T14:37:35Z p_l: selwyn: z/OS (with USS/OMVS), random platforms that accept mostly ANSI/C99 code with bits of posixish APIs, etc.
2019-10-13T14:37:47Z p_l: Ober: letting ossification creep in isn't good
2019-10-13T14:38:04Z p_l: in case of ASDF, the long-tail stretched back to platforms that didn't see serious updates since 1994
2019-10-13T14:38:23Z p_l: SBCL, CCL, CLISP, ECL, LW, ACL all have current updates
2019-10-13T14:38:42Z p_l: that's the real difference
2019-10-13T14:39:08Z p_l: and there's small chance Corman might creep back, though updating it for 64bits would be a challenge afaik
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2019-10-13T14:41:18Z p_l: I personally believe that keeping to cross-platform by default is going to be good for community
2019-10-13T14:41:50Z White_Flame: plus there's Clasp
2019-10-13T14:42:12Z White_Flame: which either is or should be getting to general usage for C++ integrated scenarios
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2019-10-13T14:45:28Z p_l: At the moment I'd be just happy to maybe use it as CL's equivalent of SIP, since I'm really not in the mood to write C++ to interrogate Clang about vtable layouts
2019-10-13T14:46:10Z p_l: (and proper exception handling is something that actually gave me waking nightmares when I tried to implement it in ~2010)
2019-10-13T14:48:37Z p_l: and as my recent experience with CommonQT shows, we need to update tooling because Qt4 is actually unbuildable/unrunnable in some cases
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2019-10-13T14:52:57Z selwyn: i wonder if having potentially large c++ libraries available in CL (via clasp without C wrappers) would significantly affect the lisp community
2019-10-13T14:55:27Z beach: What is your own opinion?
2019-10-13T14:56:26Z p_l: selwyn: unfortunately C++ is used heavily enough in some cases that it is unavoidable in *current* state of the world
2019-10-13T14:57:00Z p_l: especially since the ways to actually have multi-language interoperability are reviled by people outside of MS
2019-10-13T14:59:05Z p_l: And I want CL used more in general, not just in rather closed off pockets that can deal with just reimplementing around C++
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2019-10-13T15:10:29Z selwyn: beach: there are some fields such as professional game development in which one cannot do without making use of large existing c++ libraries. having these libraries available in lisp all of a sudden certainly makes the space of lisp applications much bigger. having said that, i doubt that having a lisp game published would have significant positive effect on, say, the lisp library ecosystem
2019-10-13T15:11:14Z selwyn: but perhaps there are some other fields in which one would see a positive effect
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2019-10-13T15:12:36Z p_l: certain ML areas are full of C++, sometimes so bad C++ you can barely use it as C++ (I'm looking at tensorflow specifically)
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2019-10-13T15:15:56Z beach: selwyn: I see, thanks.
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2019-10-13T15:17:38Z beach: p_l: I understand that there is a huge amount of C++ out there.  I was wondering about selwyn's own thoughts about whether the availability of that software to Common Lisp programmers would influence the Common Lisp community.
2019-10-13T15:18:20Z p_l: beach: figured I'd answer selwyn's musings while they worked over their own answer
2019-10-13T15:18:26Z p_l: IMO it's *not* trivial topic
2019-10-13T15:20:37Z beach: Ah, OK.  Got it.
2019-10-13T15:23:23Z beach: selwyn: There is also the possibility of a negative impact.  If large amounts of bad and unsafe C++ code is available, it might discourage the use of safe, native Common Lisp code.
2019-10-13T15:24:01Z beach: I don't have an opinion either way myself.
2019-10-13T15:24:15Z beach: ... which is why I asked.
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2019-10-13T15:34:48Z p_l: beach: I think C++ is bad enough that if you're using it from anything not-C++ you are already looking for better alternatives
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2019-10-13T15:40:20Z lxbarbosa: is there an lisp implementation of elm-ui? would be awesome
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2019-10-13T15:41:16Z lxbarbosa: https://package.elm-lang.org/packages/mdgriffith/elm-ui/latest
2019-10-13T15:41:36Z beach: p_l: Good point.
2019-10-13T15:41:48Z beach: p_l: I never thought about it that way.
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2019-10-13T16:01:00Z selwyn: beach: good point. i would prefer not to touch c++, but i do find lisp and c++ integration interesting in its own right due to the myriad of issues that have to be overcome
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2019-10-13T16:08:57Z p_l: it's easy topic on Windows, but that's because MS heavily invested in making all APIs accessible from anything you want
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2019-10-13T16:47:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: /window/zoom
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2019-10-13T16:54:50Z Ober: irc is hard
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2019-10-13T17:00:40Z decent-username: Ober: not when you use emacs
2019-10-13T17:00:43Z decent-username: :^D
2019-10-13T17:02:45Z decent-username: I tried figuring out weechat, but that was to leet for me.
2019-10-13T17:02:50Z decent-username: I'm not a real haxor.
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2019-10-13T17:56:40Z jcowan: Is there a way to make class instances evaluable as opposed to applicable, so that when eval is handed one, it calls some code that gives the value of the instance?
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2019-10-13T18:00:48Z pfdietz: That would violate the standard, jcowan.
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2019-10-13T18:01:22Z pfdietz: clhs 3.1.2.1.2
2019-10-13T18:01:22Z specbot: Conses as Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm
2019-10-13T18:01:23Z beach: selwyn: Yes, I agree that it is interesting.
2019-10-13T18:01:29Z pfdietz: clhs 3.1.2.1.3
2019-10-13T18:01:30Z specbot: Self-Evaluating Objects: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abac.htm
2019-10-13T18:01:33Z pfdietz: A form that is neither a symbol nor a cons is defined to be a self-evaluating object. Evaluating such an object yields the same object as a result.
2019-10-13T18:01:41Z pfdietz: (quoting there)
2019-10-13T18:02:08Z jcowan: Ah.  Bummer.
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2019-10-13T18:02:50Z pfdietz: One must be careful putting such things into forms, since if they do not have load forms they can't go in binary files.
2019-10-13T18:02:55Z beach: selwyn: And I can totally see how drmeister made the choice to write a Common Lisp implementation that interoperates with C++ rather than taking on the task of rewriting all the libraries he needs for his molecule design.
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2019-10-13T18:05:03Z pfdietz: One should not, for example, put function objects into forms, but rather use (function <function-name>).
2019-10-13T18:05:42Z pfdietz: I consider this a defect of the language, and would like things like functions or environments to be able to be put in binary files.
2019-10-13T18:05:59Z jcowan: That requires reifying the lexical environment, which is very bad for performance.
2019-10-13T18:06:03Z beach: The defect is the existence of FASL files.
2019-10-13T18:06:16Z beach is half joking.
2019-10-13T18:06:34Z beach: jcowan: What does?
2019-10-13T18:07:11Z jcowan: Being able to output an arbitrary closure so that it can be applied at the other end, for some value of "end"
2019-10-13T18:07:13Z beach: Sometimes, one needs to put functions into forms, for example for computing a discriminating function out of effective methods.
2019-10-13T18:07:51Z beach: jcowan: I don't see that.  The lexical environment is long gone by the time you have a closure.
2019-10-13T18:08:15Z pfdietz: The place this came up for me was in implementing mutation testing for Common Lisp.  I want to be able to replace definitions of functions, even if they are in nontrivial lexical environments.
2019-10-13T18:09:22Z pfdietz: So I want to keep that lexical environment around in some form, so I can plug mutated versions of the function into it.
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2019-10-13T18:10:11Z jcowan: Wrapping your function definition in a hand-created let does the job, but you have to have the information necessary to create that let, hence reification
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2019-10-13T18:10:44Z beach: pfdietz: That idea is kind of contrary to the one of "minimal compilation".  You would need to mutate the source before it is minimally compiled.
2019-10-13T18:11:55Z pfdietz: I lean in this direction: require the ability to query the lexical environment, so one can, when compiling the original function, record the necessary information.  Then, when the function is mutated, use that information to synthesize something that behaves like that environment.
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2019-10-13T18:12:32Z beach: pfdietz: Sounds like you want to use Trucler.
2019-10-13T18:12:47Z pfdietz: For example, if there is a (let ((x ...))  (defun foo ...)), when foo is compiled information would be stored that would let one access x.    Accessor and settor thunks.
2019-10-13T18:14:03Z beach: Trucler is a library that supplies lexical environments in way defined by a complete protocol.
2019-10-13T18:14:21Z pfdietz: Well,I'm fine with doing it in a single lisp implementation (read: sbcl), but portability could be nice.
2019-10-13T18:15:08Z beach: As it turns out, heisig has written an SBCL implementation of the protocol, using SBCL native lexical environments.
2019-10-13T18:16:01Z beach: Trucler also has a "reference implementation" that I use for SICL.
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2019-10-13T18:16:50Z beach: Cleavir version 2 uses the Trucler protocol, but Cleavir clients can choose to use the reference implementation or an implementation-specific one.
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2019-10-13T18:17:43Z beach: But since SICL is a new implementation, it does not have any historical baggage when it comes to its lexical environments, so it may as well use the reference implementation.
2019-10-13T18:21:13Z pfdietz: jcowan: wrapping the function in a hand-created let will not do the job, since I want to be able to access the same lexical variables, which may be shared with other functions.
2019-10-13T18:21:52Z jcowan: Boxes and assignment conversion fix that problem, then all the let variables are immutable.
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2019-10-13T18:40:14Z jcowan: Hmm, does any CL still implement *evalhook*?  That would do the job, though at considerable expense.
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2019-10-13T18:46:28Z MichaelRaskin: Well, one can just code-walk the corresponding top-level form, find the function definition and replace it
2019-10-13T18:48:17Z jcowan: No, I meant my original question about evaluable objects.
2019-10-13T18:48:29Z jcowan: s/objects/instances
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2019-10-13T18:52:52Z pfdietz: CLISP has *evalhook*
2019-10-13T18:52:55Z jcowan: the hook function could identify an evaluable instance, call its evaluator, and return the result.
2019-10-13T18:53:34Z pfdietz: sbcl does not
2019-10-13T18:56:03Z jcowan: makes sense, it doesn't seem well-suited to a language whose eval compiles.
2019-10-13T18:56:25Z jcowan goes and looks at the ANSI issues
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2019-10-13T18:57:18Z no_gravity: Good Evening
2019-10-13T18:57:49Z no_gravity: Would you guys consider Bel a strongly typed language?
2019-10-13T18:58:14Z Shinmera: Ask ##lisp, this channel is about Common Lisp.
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2019-10-13T19:01:19Z no_gravity: Shinmera: Would you consider Common Lisp a strongly typed language?
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2019-10-13T19:01:29Z Shinmera: Yes.
2019-10-13T19:01:45Z Shinmera: I wouldn't just consider it one, it is one.
2019-10-13T19:03:44Z no_gravity: I don't know much about Lisp. But I was under the impression it can change its own behaviour.
2019-10-13T19:04:04Z no_gravity: So it could escape the straightjacket of types?
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2019-10-13T19:05:22Z Shinmera: I don't know what that means. In Common Lisp every value has a type. This type may only be known at runtime, so it is dynamically typed, but the type is nevertheless a strong one.
2019-10-13T19:06:28Z no_gravity: When you say "every value" - is that similar to "every varible" in other languages?
2019-10-13T19:06:58Z Shinmera: a variable holds a value.
2019-10-13T19:07:11Z Shinmera: this is the same in every language.
2019-10-13T19:08:16Z no_gravity: How would you wite this in CL? a=7
2019-10-13T19:08:30Z pfdietz: Common Lisp is strongly typed, just not (always) statically typed.
2019-10-13T19:08:55Z pfdietz: Assignment?   (setq a 7)
2019-10-13T19:09:07Z pfdietz: More typically one binds variables, though.
2019-10-13T19:09:12Z pfdietz: (let ((a 7)) ...)
2019-10-13T19:09:35Z no_gravity: Ok, and how do you write this? a=7; echo a; a="hello"; echo a;
2019-10-13T19:10:21Z pfdietz: (setq a 7) (echo a) (setq a "hello") (echo a)
2019-10-13T19:10:22Z aeth: Idiomatically, we'd use two LETs and it would never rebind the old a. Literally, you can just use a setq or setf.
2019-10-13T19:10:30Z pfdietz: Assuming one had a function named echo
2019-10-13T19:10:49Z no_gravity: pfdietz: So you can assign a string to a variable that previously was a number?
2019-10-13T19:10:55Z pfdietz: Yes
2019-10-13T19:11:21Z pfdietz: Unless you've given that variable a type declaration, in which case that would be invalid (and a lisp like SBCL would check for it)
2019-10-13T19:11:24Z Shinmera: again, strong, dynamic types.
2019-10-13T19:11:33Z aeth: no_gravity: As long as there wasn't an attached type declaration to the binding, in which case it's implementation specific
2019-10-13T19:11:38Z Shinmera: please read up on what the terminology means.
2019-10-13T19:12:41Z aeth: Strong typing afaik means that it's not an autocoercive language like those that try to make sense of: 1 + "hello"
2019-10-13T19:12:42Z no_gravity: There are "attached types" in Common Lisp?
2019-10-13T19:13:02Z pfdietz: In practice, if you've done something stupidly wrong, like have a program where + is applied to a non-number, an implementation like sbcl will warn you when code would cause a runtime error due to type incompatibility.
2019-10-13T19:13:11Z pfdietz: Attached types?   What are those?
2019-10-13T19:13:25Z aeth: Type tags, maybe?
2019-10-13T19:13:30Z pfdietz: All values in CL have a type.
2019-10-13T19:13:35Z aeth: Implementation detail, but probably tagged.
2019-10-13T19:13:43Z pfdietz: There is a function, type-of, that tells you the type of a value.
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2019-10-13T19:14:01Z pfdietz: Getting this to work efficiently is interesting.
2019-10-13T19:14:01Z no_gravity: pfdietz: Why do you use the term "values" instead of "variables"?
2019-10-13T19:14:18Z pfdietz: Because values have types, not variables, in Common Lisp.
2019-10-13T19:14:20Z Shinmera: I assume he means non-null types and other static reasoning you can do about code if you have static typing and non-null types
2019-10-13T19:15:50Z Shinmera: no_gravity: Do you have any intention of learning Common Lisp, or are you just trying to use us to not have to read up on basic programming language terminology?
2019-10-13T19:16:07Z pfdietz: (type-of '(a . b)) ==> CONS in SBCL, for example.
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2019-10-13T19:16:27Z no_gravity: Shinmera: I would say neither.
2019-10-13T19:17:36Z Shinmera: I won't invest any more time in replies, then.
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2019-10-13T19:18:17Z pfdietz: no_gravity: absent declarations, a variable in CL can hold a value of any type.
2019-10-13T19:19:02Z pfdietz: Also, types are richer than in many statically typed languages.   For example, the type T holds all values.
2019-10-13T19:19:14Z no_gravity: pfdietz: Interesting. How do you define a function in lisp? Say this one: function f($name) { echo "Hello $name" }
2019-10-13T19:19:46Z pfdietz: (defun f (name)  (format t "Hello ~a~%" name))
2019-10-13T19:21:27Z pfdietz: So, (f "foo") would print
2019-10-13T19:21:29Z pfdietz: Hello foo
2019-10-13T19:21:44Z pfdietz: And (foo 1) would print
2019-10-13T19:21:47Z pfdietz: Hello 1
2019-10-13T19:21:58Z no_gravity: pfdietz: So you can pass any type of value to f?
2019-10-13T19:22:09Z no_gravity: I would call that a loosely typed language.
2019-10-13T19:22:10Z pfdietz: The parameter name could be any printable value.
2019-10-13T19:22:47Z pfdietz: It's dynamically typed.   Type errors are caught, but at run time, not compile time.
2019-10-13T19:23:05Z pfdietz: Contrast this to a language where type errors cause crashes.
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2019-10-13T19:24:10Z pfdietz: (some type errors are caught at compile time, in practice, since the compiler typically does some type propagation then and can detect many problems)
2019-10-13T19:24:28Z no_gravity: Ah yes, dynamically typed.
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2019-10-13T19:29:00Z jcowan: it's obvious that (+ 1 "foo") is ill-typed, so the compiler can transform it into code that raises an exception
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2019-10-13T19:29:30Z jcowan: in Scheme a compiler can reject the whole program outright.
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2019-10-13T22:25:05Z vms14: (format t "~a ~{ ~a ~} ~:*~a" 1 '(2 3 4))
2019-10-13T22:25:12Z vms14: how I return to the 1?
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2019-10-13T22:26:12Z vms14: oh lol
2019-10-13T22:26:25Z vms14: just adding another ~:*
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2019-10-13T22:29:24Z vms14: could I do another loop with ~:* taking the list again?
2019-10-13T22:30:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Format directives take numeric arguments
2019-10-13T22:30:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I forget the order :), but it's something like ~:2*
2019-10-13T22:30:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs format
2019-10-13T22:30:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm
2019-10-13T22:30:35Z vms14: right
2019-10-13T22:31:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, when you start doing a bunch of ~* directives, consider ~@* which lets you jump to a specified argument
2019-10-13T22:33:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Finally, I wrote a little library that lets you generate format strings in a more readable fashion, at the expense of concision: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/format-string-builder
2019-10-13T22:33:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's on quicklisp
2019-10-13T22:36:08Z vms14: I don't understand what ~@* does
2019-10-13T22:37:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: If I have (format t "~1@a ~0@a" :foo :bar) will print `BAR FOO`
2019-10-13T22:37:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. the numeric argument specifies which argument to jump to, with 0 being the first argument
2019-10-13T22:38:18Z vms14: fiddlerwoaroof: isn't it printing foo bar?
2019-10-13T22:39:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sorry :)
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2019-10-13T22:39:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: the format invocation should have been: (format t "~1@* ~a ~0@* ~a" :foo :bar)
2019-10-13T22:40:21Z vms14: thanks fiddlerwoaroof
2019-10-13T22:41:09Z vms14: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cga.htm
2019-10-13T22:42:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder if beach's sicl could be used for sandboxed lisp execution in minion
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2019-10-13T22:42:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: it'd be cool to be able to ask minion to evaluate a form and print the result
2019-10-13T22:43:12Z vms14: I'd be cooler to be able to invite minion to your own channel
2019-10-13T22:44:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can always run it yourself :)
2019-10-13T22:44:33Z vms14: nah
2019-10-13T22:44:40Z vms14: I just wanted the "memo" feature
2019-10-13T22:47:02Z aeth: vms14: Imo, using format for everything, while possible (at least once you mix in "~/package::foo/"), is probably not the best thing as far as readability goes. It's like regexp for everything.
2019-10-13T22:47:27Z aeth: vms14: Well, at least one format call. Even just breaking things up to 5 or so formats with things like loop mixed in can help with readability
2019-10-13T22:47:35Z vms14: I have to learn how to make functions for format
2019-10-13T22:47:50Z vms14: I have to learn a lot xD
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2019-10-13T22:48:07Z aeth: It works as expected, it's just that you need to always include the package prefix (or else it assumes cl-user, which is weird) and this means you can't use / in package names (which is increasingly common)
2019-10-13T22:49:39Z aeth: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm
2019-10-13T22:49:43Z vms14: format function calls seem to be very good for analize/extract data before printing
2019-10-13T22:50:03Z vms14: I want to learn also the reader macros
2019-10-13T22:50:11Z vms14: they let you change the syntax completely
2019-10-13T22:50:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: First you learn to write reader macros and then you learn not to write reader macros :)
2019-10-13T22:50:44Z vms14: and you can maintain several readtables so you could have different syntax blocks
2019-10-13T22:50:51Z aeth: In practice, unless you actually want it configurable with : and @ you basically just do this: (defun foo (stream argument &rest rest) (declare (ignore rest)) ...)
2019-10-13T22:50:54Z vms14: fiddlerwoaroof: why not?
2019-10-13T22:51:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: most reader macros end up breaking paredit and other editor features
2019-10-13T22:51:34Z vms14: what makes them break?
2019-10-13T22:51:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, as a rule, normal macros "feel" better
2019-10-13T22:51:43Z vms14: a specific syntax I suppose
2019-10-13T22:51:43Z aeth: vms14: I mean, I think we've all been there before with some features of some programming languages, where we learn it, push it to its limits, and then realize that we can't read it the next day, and eventually decide moderation is best, like all things.
2019-10-13T22:51:49Z aeth: vms14: I just suspect you'll get there with FORMAT eventually
2019-10-13T22:51:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: SLIME/etc. mostly assume parenthesized expresssions
2019-10-13T22:52:20Z aeth: At least to me, it's a lot plainer to use multiple write-foo/prinfoo/format instead of trying to fit everything in one format
2019-10-13T22:52:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, the more you change the syntax with reader macros, the worse your editing experience gets
2019-10-13T22:52:39Z vms14: aeth: yes, I should do that too
2019-10-13T22:52:40Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Unless you also configure that!
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2019-10-13T22:53:29Z aeth: vms14: because it's a stream (with a few extras for FORMAT that might not apply to the rest), you can basically mix and match except for (format nil ...) where you're generating a string with the return value (but even there you could concatenate)
2019-10-13T22:53:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are some exceptions, like my objc-lisp ffi
2019-10-13T22:53:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/objc-lisp-bridge/blob/master/demo-app.lisp#L93-L99
2019-10-13T22:53:39Z vms14: the best thing
2019-10-13T22:53:47Z vms14: is you can use format inside format functions
2019-10-13T22:54:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I find these square-brace macros make the ffi part a lot nicer-looking (because it papers over a lot of the ffi noise)
2019-10-13T22:54:59Z aeth: vms14: Personally, even if I'm 100% using FORMAT, I would keep it to one line, even though one super format string can technically do more, except perhaps for a fairly trivial ~{ ~} usage (but even that I'd mostly use to e.g. turn '(1 2 3) into "1, 2, 3" instead of doing that for lines)
2019-10-13T22:55:15Z aeth: And sometimes one line is too much
2019-10-13T22:55:20Z vms14: I'd be happier with M expressions than with S expressions just because {} or [] is faster than write ()
2019-10-13T22:55:25Z vms14: type*
2019-10-13T22:55:32Z aeth: you can change your keyboard layout
2019-10-13T22:55:39Z vms14: or make a reader macro
2019-10-13T22:56:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use the OS to bind left and right shift to open and close parens
2019-10-13T22:56:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's amazing, once you get used to it
2019-10-13T22:56:43Z vms14: fiddlerwoaroof: lol
2019-10-13T22:57:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a really cool idea: when you press shift by itself, it enters a paren, when you push it with another key it inserts a capital
2019-10-13T22:57:21Z vms14: you could use emacs
2019-10-13T22:57:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/10/a-modern-space-cadet/#shift-parentheses
2019-10-13T22:57:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: vms14: maybe, but if I use the OS, I can get this sweet behavior everywhere
2019-10-13T22:58:11Z vms14: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, but it's likely that all lisp will be written in emacs
2019-10-13T22:58:14Z vms14: xD
2019-10-13T22:58:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: This improves every language I write :) and, I use a repl with LINEDIT all the time
2019-10-13T22:59:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: (and recently, I've been using the Lispworks IDE about 25% of the time I write lisp)
2019-10-13T23:01:47Z vms14: fiddlerwoaroof: what about lispworks vs sbcl?
2019-10-13T23:02:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you want to write a cross-platform GUI application, CAPI is really nice
2019-10-13T23:02:35Z vms14: I bet you it won't run in my system
2019-10-13T23:02:38Z vms14: xD
2019-10-13T23:02:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, Lispwork's application delivery features are extremely well-done and a joy to use
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2019-10-13T23:03:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, it's GUI debugger and and other GUI utilities are really useful
2019-10-13T23:05:07Z vms14: fiddlerwoaroof: so for production is worth to pay for lispworks instead of use sbcl?
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2019-10-13T23:05:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: It depends what you're working on: sbcl is very good
2019-10-13T23:06:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I use it for all my http servers, etc.
2019-10-13T23:07:16Z vms14: I'm disappointed because sbcl in netbsd does not have thread support
2019-10-13T23:07:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sounds like a chance to hack on the implementation :)
2019-10-13T23:07:56Z vms14: I should because I always wanted to contribute to netbsd
2019-10-13T23:08:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are you using the binary download?
2019-10-13T23:08:22Z vms14: fiddlerwoaroof: of sbcl? no, I use pkgsrc which compiles the source
2019-10-13T23:08:54Z vms14: pkgsrc is a folder with makefiles that downloads and compiles stuff from source
2019-10-13T23:09:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, I use that on my smartos boxes :)
2019-10-13T23:09:42Z vms14: I think NetBSD is one of the best systems for a server
2019-10-13T23:09:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sorry, different system
2019-10-13T23:09:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://pkgin.net
2019-10-13T23:10:07Z vms14: this is why I'm disappointed with the thread support
2019-10-13T23:10:10Z vms14: for hunchentoot
2019-10-13T23:10:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know much about NetBSD, but threads work on FreeBSD, so it might be easy to make them work on NetBSD too
2019-10-13T23:11:13Z vms14: I have no idea about threads
2019-10-13T23:11:21Z vms14: so I have time to invest
2019-10-13T23:11:22Z vms14: xD
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2019-10-14T03:02:57Z matzy_: common lisp has to be the strangest language i've ever learned.  i love it
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2019-10-14T03:03:37Z no-defun-allowed: Never tried FORTH?
2019-10-14T03:03:41Z matzy_: (note that I gave up on haskell because the installtion process alone on linux was insane)
2019-10-14T03:04:26Z matzy_: i thought quicklisp was a bit outdated the first few times i used it, but hey, it gets the job done
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2019-10-14T03:33:36Z ahungry: Some would view the lack of version pinning in ql as a problem, but I like that it changes the implicit contract between packagers and users from "Hey, we're going to push BC breaks all the time and just do a major version bump", to something more like "we avoid breaking BC at all costs"
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2019-10-14T04:03:53Z aeth: ahungry: Which would be perfectly fine, but that means that in any higher order function, it should be expected to use keyword arguments with &allow-other-keys so there's no future breakage and there's no real way to enforce that except maybe generating a random nonsense key
2019-10-14T04:04:44Z aeth: If I'm unclear: if your API expects a function somewhere (even in a macro, not just higher order functions) it should use keywords, and the user should expect to have to use &allow-other-keys so future updates don't break it
2019-10-14T04:11:04Z aeth: I suppose another alternative is to use one struct/standard-object/list/hash-table/whatever for that
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2019-10-14T04:22:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-14T04:29:43Z ebrasca: Hello beach!
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2019-10-14T09:19:48Z purpur: Hi all. I tried the rosettacode.org example for the primitive version of bubble-sort and it just goes straight to something like an infinite loop for a simple list like "(bubble-sort (list 1 8 7 5 6 0 7 3 4))".
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2019-10-14T09:21:56Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe it's just terribly slow? Random access to lists is slow, and bubble sort runs in O(n^2) time.
2019-10-14T09:22:17Z ck_: purpur: try handing in a symbol instead. (defparameter my-list (list 1 8 7 5 6 0 7 3 4)) (bubble-sort my-list)
2019-10-14T09:22:32Z no-defun-allowed: Though I think that could be much faster by using loop correctly.
2019-10-14T09:23:06Z decent-username: Is there a way to redefine a structure without starting a new REPL? I've always simple avoided the problem that way.
2019-10-14T09:23:36Z ck_: decent-username: how about uninterning the symbols it generates?
2019-10-14T09:23:46Z decent-username: tried that
2019-10-14T09:23:51Z decent-username: (uninter 'keyframe)
2019-10-14T09:23:59Z decent-username: (unintern 'keyframe)
2019-10-14T09:24:34Z Shinmera: just use classes instead
2019-10-14T09:24:42Z decent-username: LOL, that wasn't the question.
2019-10-14T09:24:58Z decent-username: It needs to be efficient. animations need fast data structures.
2019-10-14T09:24:59Z phadthai: you'll need to recompile anything that depends on that structure, as unlike for clos, accesses may be very optimized as memory offsets
2019-10-14T09:25:01Z Shinmera: structure redefinition is undefined, so
2019-10-14T09:25:25Z Shinmera: classes are plenty fast.
2019-10-14T09:25:31Z no-defun-allowed: Also, bubble-sort does not return the sorted sequence.
2019-10-14T09:25:32Z purpur: no-defun-allowed: I waited like 1:30 min and it just keeps going. It can´t be that slow for a list with less than 10 elements
2019-10-14T09:25:33Z ck_: decent-username: but defstruct defines much more than just the structure
2019-10-14T09:25:42Z Shinmera: have you even shown that they are too slow for what you're doing?
2019-10-14T09:26:08Z purpur: ck_: Thanks, i tried that. It seems to be no improvement though.
2019-10-14T09:26:17Z decent-username: Shinmera: I'm just modifying some code someone else wrote.
2019-10-14T09:26:26Z decent-username: Wouldn't want to change everything.
2019-10-14T09:26:54Z Shinmera: The short answer is you can't
2019-10-14T09:27:09Z no-defun-allowed: purpur: I think the part that decides when to exit is incorrect.
2019-10-14T09:27:17Z Shinmera: The long answer is you need to remove all symbols the structure definition touches, and then recompile everything that used any of those definitions.
2019-10-14T09:27:26Z Shinmera: Which is probably more of a pita than just reloading.
2019-10-14T09:27:35Z no-defun-allowed: I stopped the program and looked at the list, and it was sorted already.
2019-10-14T09:27:41Z decent-username: Shinmera: thanks for the answer. So I'll have to simply start a new REPL. :^D
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2019-10-14T09:28:00Z phadthai: symbols may no longer be relevant in the compiled code using struct elements, even
2019-10-14T09:28:09Z phadthai: except to compile new code
2019-10-14T09:28:24Z Shinmera: that's why you need to recompile.
2019-10-14T09:28:30Z phadthai: yes
2019-10-14T09:28:40Z no-defun-allowed: purpur: Oh, the code is broken with duplicate elements. Try with a comparison function #'<= and it will work.
2019-10-14T09:29:06Z purpur: no-defun-allowed: Thank you very much!
2019-10-14T09:29:24Z no-defun-allowed: But then the code is broken.
2019-10-14T09:29:59Z ck_: oh, I thought you were talking about the bubble-sort-list function. my bad.
2019-10-14T09:30:09Z no-defun-allowed: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1511 Here is my somewhat improved version, which will play nicer with lists.
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2019-10-14T09:33:31Z no-defun-allowed: Note that the comparison function is the opposite of what CL:SORT expects.
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2019-10-14T09:34:44Z no-defun-allowed: And I'm fairly sure merge sort is faster on lists.
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2019-10-14T09:35:05Z purpur: no-defun-allowed: Thank you for the detailed explanation. Iam just starting with lisp and searched for a simple variant of bubble-sort. I will have a look into your code snippet.
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2019-10-14T09:36:20Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Yes, merge sort is probably the fastest on lists.
2019-10-14T09:36:54Z lorenzoi: hello I am having issues with loading quicklisp in sbcl. I have the load script in my sbclrc but it does not load.
2019-10-14T09:40:55Z beach: lorenzoi: Paste your .sbclrc on a pastebin site.
2019-10-14T09:41:36Z decent-username: lorenzoi: A bit more information would be nice. How did you end up in this situation?
2019-10-14T09:42:13Z lorenzoi: I wanted to load up a package in an sbcl repl in my browser, but it said that the package QL did not exist
2019-10-14T09:43:32Z decent-username: lorenzoi: You need to start sbcl with quicklisp. For this you would need to execute "sbcl --load quicklisp.lisp". After doing that you'll need to evaluate "(ql:add-to-init-file)"
2019-10-14T09:44:04Z lorenzoi: I did do that. A long time ago, but now it does not work
2019-10-14T09:44:18Z lorenzoi: https://pastebin.com/V2paV2d2
2019-10-14T09:44:20Z decent-username: if you encounter any error before that, try to delete you ~/quicklisp directory and follow the procedure that's described at https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/.
2019-10-14T09:44:23Z lorenzoi: my sbclrc
2019-10-14T09:44:43Z decent-username: clear it
2019-10-14T09:45:09Z decent-username: and then do the first thing I've suggested
2019-10-14T09:45:56Z decent-username: Your .sbclrc doesn't look broken though.
2019-10-14T09:47:26Z lorenzoi: now it works
2019-10-14T09:47:27Z lorenzoi: thanks!
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2019-10-14T09:47:34Z decent-username: glad to hear. :)
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2019-10-14T13:15:23Z jcowan: In particular, there is a very nice destructive mergesort on lists that uses zero space (the top-level pairs in the output are a recycled version of the top-level pairs in the input).
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2019-10-14T13:25:09Z flip214: how much slower is sorting a list compared to putting all the elements in a vector and sorting there?
2019-10-14T13:25:37Z flip214: or, perhaps, how many elements does a list have to have so that sorting it becomes slower than using a vector?
2019-10-14T13:26:06Z beach: flip214: Merge sort is special in that, if you sort a vector, it needs additional space, though there is research to make that constant, at the cost of performance.
2019-10-14T13:26:35Z beach: flip214: So merge sort is actually better on a list than on a vector in that respect.
2019-10-14T13:27:23Z beach: flip214: And merge sort is substantially better than (say) quicksort.  Plus, it is stable, whereas quicksort is not.
2019-10-14T13:28:09Z beach: flip214: Merge sort on a list is O(n log n).
2019-10-14T13:29:27Z beach: flip214: So there is not an upper bound where it becomes more advantageous to use a vector.
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2019-10-14T13:36:14Z Shinmera: Yeah, all down to the constant factor in your implementation.
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2019-10-14T13:41:48Z pfdietz: jcowan:  scheme compilers can reject code that has ill-typed expressions?
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2019-10-14T13:42:31Z jcowan: Yes.  (+ 1 "foo") is an error (i.e. undefined behavior) and the undefined behavior can be retroactive to compile time.
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2019-10-14T13:43:04Z pfdietz: The problem with that is that the code could be dead.   Is the compiler limited to doing this only only exprs it can show are not dead?
2019-10-14T13:43:43Z jcowan: That's disputed.  My opinion is that it is not so limited.
2019-10-14T13:44:10Z flip214: beach: I was thinking about all that CDR traversal, compared to just incrementing a memory address by some multiple of the element size for a vector.
2019-10-14T13:44:14Z pfdietz: Ok, that means some otherwise correct transformations on the code can cause the compiler to fail.
2019-10-14T13:44:22Z jcowan: If you evaluate (+ 1 "foo") THE UNIVERSE WILL NEVER EVEN HAVE EXISTED
2019-10-14T13:44:48Z jcowan: pfdietz: Could you explain further?
2019-10-14T13:44:52Z flip214: as reading the last element in a list is already a O(n) operation.
2019-10-14T13:45:22Z beach: flip214: Merge sort always processes the elements in the order, so there is no such access.
2019-10-14T13:45:44Z beach: flip214: Therefore, list traversal is just a constant overhead for merge sort.
2019-10-14T13:45:50Z pfdietz: (let ((x "foo")) (if (stringp x) 0 (+ x 1)))
2019-10-14T13:46:09Z pfdietz: Now substitute the value of x into the if form.
2019-10-14T13:46:41Z pfdietz: I'd like to be able to substitute constants into the body of a let and not have to worry about the compiler failing.
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2019-10-14T13:47:35Z pfdietz: The sbcl approach is to translate to an error expression, and issue a warning if it stays around after dead code elimination.
2019-10-14T13:48:36Z beach: Hmm, yeah, code like that could happen after macro expansion, couldn't it?
2019-10-14T13:48:49Z pfdietz: Or inlining.
2019-10-14T13:48:55Z Josh_2: Afternoon all :P
2019-10-14T13:48:55Z beach: Right.
2019-10-14T13:49:01Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
2019-10-14T13:49:40Z Xach: Ha. I was going to add a restart to the quicklisp client to deal with the local archive size problem. But I added it already, 9 years ago.
2019-10-14T13:49:45Z flip214: beach: do you have an idiomatic translation for merge sort? The example I saw does LENGTH and twice SUBSEQ on each recursion, which ought to be expensive
2019-10-14T13:50:04Z beach: flip214: But just a constant overhead.
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2019-10-14T13:50:41Z beach: flip214: You can avoid the LENGTH of you keep it around in the recursive calls.
2019-10-14T13:50:51Z beach: So then it just happens once.
2019-10-14T13:52:49Z beach: And I don't see where the second SUBSEQ comes in.
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2019-10-14T13:57:38Z flip214: I'm looking at https://gist.github.com/cleac/4355da18f88ae4f53e5cb1fab18839f5
2019-10-14T14:01:08Z Bike: i was going to link the merge sort in sbcl but hoo boy is it not simple
2019-10-14T14:01:09Z beach: The subseq is not twice on the same list.
2019-10-14T14:01:35Z beach: flip214: But it is still the case that it is a constant overhead.
2019-10-14T14:01:51Z beach: flip214: Do the complexity computation, and you will see that it is O(n log n).
2019-10-14T14:02:48Z beach: flip214: If you want to, you can help shka__ investigate merge sort on vectors that do not require O(n) space.  Having a good merge sort implementation for vectors would be a very good thing indeed.
2019-10-14T14:03:07Z jcowan: https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-32/blob/master/sort-ref-impl/lmsort.scm is in Scheme, but translation to CL should be trivial.  It's by Olin Shivers and the license is MIT.
2019-10-14T14:03:40Z beach: flip214: Besides, that code is awful.
2019-10-14T14:05:51Z jcowan: This SO has many links to papers on O(1) space vector merge sorts: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2571049/how-to-sort-in-place-using-the-merge-sort-algorithm
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2019-10-14T14:08:28Z jcowan: One of my favorite interview questions is to ask people to write code for a procedure that, when passed a number, returns the median of that number and all other numbers previously passed, given that the number of inputs may exceed the capacity of memory.
2019-10-14T14:08:51Z Lycurgus: what if they said no?
2019-10-14T14:09:11Z jcowan: Well, we move on to the next candidate.  But I can't say that's ever happened.
2019-10-14T14:09:54Z jcowan: This tests a lot of things, including whether people will ask about constraints on the input and whether they collaborate well (essentially nobody gets the answer right off)
2019-10-14T14:09:58Z Lycurgus: yeah if they could say no they wouldn't be in the position to be quized
2019-10-14T14:11:40Z jcowan: I conjecture that the problem is insoluble if the inputs are arbitrary bignums, but very few people ask right off if there is a limit on the numbers being input.
2019-10-14T14:11:49Z Lycurgus: *quizzed
2019-10-14T14:12:53Z beach: jcowan: Yes, there are several papers on O(1) space merge sort.  However, it might be the case that space exists, say on the stack.  I would like to see a very that uses O(1) space (with the time overhead that it implies) only if the space is really tight.
2019-10-14T14:12:57Z pfdietz: I was wondering if you'd allow the numbers to be written to external storage.
2019-10-14T14:13:07Z jcowan: No
2019-10-14T14:13:08Z Lycurgus: are these generally candidates with modest experience?
2019-10-14T14:13:15Z Bike: well i don't see how you can compute the median without having all the data, yeah... and if it's constrained to be finite you can just keep counts
2019-10-14T14:13:17Z jcowan: Varying amounts, really.
2019-10-14T14:13:19Z Bike: i wouldn't have thought of that, i don't think
2019-10-14T14:13:32Z jcowan: On the contrary, you just did!
2019-10-14T14:13:52Z Bike: i mean i wouldn't have thought to ask if the input was constrained.
2019-10-14T14:13:58Z jcowan: Ah.
2019-10-14T14:14:19Z Lycurgus: would it occur to you to not quiz someone who obviously didn need it or is that a bogus concept for you, just using judgement?
2019-10-14T14:14:50Z Lycurgus: bogus/alien
2019-10-14T14:14:51Z jcowan: I don't have that much faith in my judgment of obviosity.
2019-10-14T14:14:57Z Lycurgus: ah
2019-10-14T14:15:31Z jcowan: "Exercise caution [...] for the world is full of deceits."
2019-10-14T14:15:55Z jcowan: The stats on candidates who look good on paper but fail the FizzBuzz test are a cautionary tale.
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2019-10-14T14:16:11Z pfdietz: This makes me wonder... is there an online algorithm for median that takes O(1) time per input?
2019-10-14T14:16:15Z Lycurgus: all the more reason to develop powers of discernment, in general you won't be able to quiz
2019-10-14T14:16:19Z Josh_2: The aim should be to look bad on paper and fail the FizzBuzz test /s
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2019-10-14T14:17:33Z Lycurgus: and the quiz can be faked
2019-10-14T14:18:07Z Lycurgus: i can ace ur dumb quiz and then sit on my ass thru whole gig like a lump because you tested me
2019-10-14T14:18:40Z Lycurgus: or rather because you failed to give me the respect and credit my experience warranted
2019-10-14T14:18:43Z pfdietz: Yes there is:  http://denenberg.com/omf.pdf
2019-10-14T14:18:49Z jcowan: Oh yes.  The point of interviews is to reduce the cost of churn, which is very high and especially for programmers.
2019-10-14T14:19:14Z jcowan: In the restaurant biz it's routine to hire anyone who isn't actually drooling into the food and be prepared to fire them in three days.
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2019-10-14T14:20:14Z jcowan: pfdietz: What is an online algorithm?
2019-10-14T14:20:51Z Bike: takes a stream of inputs and outputs as it goes
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2019-10-14T14:21:35Z Lycurgus: dynamically supplied presumably
2019-10-14T14:21:36Z jcowan: ah, my problem asks for that then.  Many people know the two-heap strategy, which is defeated by saying the stream may be longer than can be kept in memory.
2019-10-14T14:21:47Z Bike: right.
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2019-10-14T14:22:12Z jcowan: recently it turned out that the candidate had been asked for the two-heap solution in the phone screen before I got to him
2019-10-14T14:22:38Z pfdietz: There is a well-known O(n) algorithm for offline median; my question was whether that can be extended to an online version.
2019-10-14T14:23:25Z pfdietz: And the answer is apparently yes.
2019-10-14T14:23:50Z jcowan: The histogram algorithm is O(1) for both time and space
2019-10-14T14:27:41Z jcowan: however this is not true if the stream is truly unbounded in length because of the bignums in the buckets, so I give candidates that there might be as many as 2^64 inputs
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2019-10-14T14:28:35Z Shinmera: Can we get back to lisp please
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2019-10-14T14:39:22Z flip214: beach: yeah, thanks, I thought as much
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2019-10-14T15:36:25Z admich: hello, I have a problem with clsql, someone of you know howto report bugs? I tried to send an email (as written on README file) on mailing list but the mailing list is down. Then I open an issue on the github repo reported on the README: https://github.com/UnwashedMeme/clsql/issues/10 but until now no feedback
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2019-10-14T17:49:52Z thijso: anyone ever tried to debug ecl lisp code using gdb? Or the other one, lldb I think?
2019-10-14T17:50:16Z thijso: I'm at the point of just giving up and stuffing ecl full of debug_log print statements...
2019-10-14T17:50:41Z thijso: I've compiled it so many times now, it's getting to be routine..
2019-10-14T17:53:17Z pfdietz: When I debug lisp i use TRACE a lot.  Some lisps support single stepping; I don't know if ecl does.
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2019-10-14T18:11:49Z thijso: kind of a weird setup, I'm debugging an android app that is segfaulting in ecl_init_module, I don't have a repl to work with yet at that point
2019-10-14T18:12:05Z thijso: so TRACE is not an option
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2019-10-14T18:12:23Z jackdaniel: gdb works really well with ecl
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2019-10-14T18:12:44Z jackdaniel: chech src/utils/gdbinit
2019-10-14T18:12:49Z jackdaniel: check
2019-10-14T18:16:50Z thijso: It's not gdb, it's probably me. I have a working gdb talking to my app on my phone through gdbremote.
2019-10-14T18:17:41Z thijso: I just don't know how to go about getting exactly where the segfault is happening, and what is triggering it
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2019-10-14T20:23:42Z Shinmera: Yay, new Quicklisp release. Finally my new batch of libraries is out.
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2019-10-14T21:31:08Z ralt: yay, horse-html made it
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2019-10-14T22:00:09Z thijso: hmmm... maybe I should figure out if the random crashes running clfswm with newer quicklisp libs is solved. And if not, find out where the problem is...
2019-10-14T22:00:49Z thijso: although... maybe I should focus on the random -- well, not random, actually -- crashes of my android app...
2019-10-14T22:00:55Z thijso: so much to do, so little time...
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2019-10-15T00:02:01Z LdBeth: I’d like to help but I don’t have a Linux to test
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2019-10-15T00:24:08Z bjorkintosh: thijso, you're using ecl on android?
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2019-10-15T01:59:07Z Ober: lot of new failures
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2019-10-15T03:53:20Z Berra: I want to evaluate some x and then quasiquote what it evaluated to. Is this possible?
2019-10-15T03:54:42Z Josh_2: with a macro?
2019-10-15T03:55:58Z Berra: Josh_2: Hm, right so no way with just primitive quoting and eval?
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2019-10-15T03:58:17Z Josh_2: aren't you better off just putting the result in a list?
2019-10-15T03:59:18Z Berra: Josh_2: Then the AST wouldn't be isomorphic to what I'm trying to parse afaik
2019-10-15T04:00:01Z Josh_2: alrighty
2019-10-15T04:01:10Z Berra: It feels frustrating, I would just like to be able to define a continuation to that evaluation and quote that.
2019-10-15T04:01:37Z Berra: But any evaluation that I try to quote obviously also quotes that evaluation. There must be something I'm missing.
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2019-10-15T04:05:02Z Josh_2: Berra: I'm sorry but that's a bit above my pay grade xD If you wait a little while beach will probably be up and I'm sure he will be able to help if no one else has by then
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2019-10-15T04:07:17Z Berra: Josh_2: Alright, thanks for the help anyhow.
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2019-10-15T04:20:52Z Berra: Something like `',x works because the unescape still evaluates x because that's not prevented by the quote. But ``,x does not work, because the outermost quasiquote won't evaluate the escaped x because of the innermost one.
2019-10-15T04:25:29Z Berra: ``,,x almost does what I want, but I don't understand why so I need to read more about quasiquote escapes..
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2019-10-15T04:31:02Z Berra: If x evaluates to y then ``,,x yields `,y which is isomorphic to y I think...
2019-10-15T04:32:39Z Berra: What I want to know is if it's just isomorphic or actually equal.
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2019-10-15T04:36:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-15T04:49:01Z Berra: It would be easy if I allowed myself to evaluate the quoting semantics in parsing, but that's incorrect, right?
2019-10-15T04:52:25Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, that would be incorrect.
2019-10-15T04:52:59Z no-defun-allowed: (let ((x 2)) `,x) would not work as the reader does not have access to the lexical environment.
2019-10-15T04:53:33Z no-defun-allowed: However, I don't think the representation of backquote is defined, so you could simplify it to (let ((x 2)) x).
2019-10-15T04:53:44Z Berra: What I'm trying to do is that I want to parse a Lisp and I want to parse it into an actual Lisp AST, since the parsing is done by a Lisp. But I'm running into this problem.
2019-10-15T04:55:00Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, so you'd like to read `x and get (quasiquote x) or something like that?
2019-10-15T04:55:51Z Berra: no-defun-allowed: Something like that, yes. But since `x represents the actual parsing of a datum (x) in this case, I need to evaluate x since the quote is not supposed to be quote x but instead that that datum is.
2019-10-15T04:56:49Z Berra: x represents say (cons x1 x2) so I need to parse into `(cons x1 x2) and not `x
2019-10-15T04:56:51Z no-defun-allowed: I think what you're asking for is different than CL quasiquote then, and I barely understand that quasiquote.
2019-10-15T04:57:30Z Berra: Ok, that's my fault. I entered #lisp because yeah- but I'm actually writing the parser in a subset of Scheme
2019-10-15T04:58:01Z no-defun-allowed: And that quasiquote is the same as Scheme quasiquote, but the representation in Scheme is defined.
2019-10-15T04:58:37Z no-defun-allowed: http://axisofeval.blogspot.com/2013/04/a-quasiquote-i-can-understand.html
2019-10-15T04:59:00Z X-Scale: Berra: there's also #scheme
2019-10-15T04:59:16Z Berra: X-Scale: Thanks
2019-10-15T04:59:50Z Berra: no-defun-allowed: Will have a read and see if things become clearer
2019-10-15T05:00:04Z no-defun-allowed: Everyone that isn't Berra should mentally replace any `define` in that article with `defvar`, but it just describes what to translate in English to list building functions, so you should be okay.
2019-10-15T05:00:32Z Berra: Great stuff, thanks
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2019-10-15T05:05:17Z Berra: no-defun-allowed: https://privatebin.net/?599c1f453ff0213a#95wHMhJ5YZ26eHnZbro7Wyu6aXVdj28twPHWhiTWX1zS
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2019-10-15T05:06:09Z Berra: Problem is just those mappings really. But the representation is tripping me up. The article makes perfect sense from the perspective of interpretation and code generation, but I should refrain from such semantics in parsing right?
2019-10-15T05:06:43Z Berra: Maybe I cannot avoid doing either of two things. Either create an arbitrary representation for quotation that isn't the defacto one in the Lisp I'm wiring my parser in.
2019-10-15T05:06:53Z Berra: Or do part of the quote evaluation as I'm parting.
2019-10-15T05:07:26Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, that translation step would be somewhere in the interpreter.
2019-10-15T05:07:34Z Berra: '('my-quasiquote x)
2019-10-15T05:07:54Z no-defun-allowed: You might write a macro for QUASIQUOTE which translates its body to that list building code.
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2019-10-15T05:11:50Z Berra: Thinking more about it right now I'm thinking that I can't use any of the quotation semantics of the Lisp I'm parsing with.
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2019-10-15T05:31:24Z Berra: no-defun-allowed: Well so yeah I think I need to forgo using quoting in my AST representation of the Lisp I'm parsing and just create my own symbols to represent quoting.
2019-10-15T05:31:48Z Berra: no-defun-allowed: But it still annoyed me a bit that I could figure out how to do the quoting as a continuation
2019-10-15T05:32:20Z Berra: Closest was ``,,x -> `y
2019-10-15T05:32:28Z Berra: ``,, -> `,y
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2019-10-15T08:19:32Z thijso: bjorkintosh: yes, ECL on android, using EQL5-Android (port of EQL5 for android, which is Qt5 for CL). It works, mostly, but there are still a lot of issues with it (such as segfaults...)
2019-10-15T08:20:05Z thijso: LdBeth: I think I saw you had a fork of clfswm on github? Do you use it?
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2019-10-15T11:36:35Z flip214: how would a CFFI callback function refer to variables in some outer lisp function? I've got a void* available that gets passed around, but I see no mention in CFFI about getting a closure or so.
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2019-10-15T11:46:29Z p_l: hmm, LispWorks personal is going to be useless on new Macs
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2019-10-15T11:53:39Z Shinmera: flip214: you'll want to keep a table of your own that lets you get an object from that pointer/whatever.
2019-10-15T11:55:47Z Shinmera: the callback has to be toplevel, so you have to synchronise over global state.
2019-10-15T11:55:53Z Shinmera: sorry.
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2019-10-15T12:06:25Z lxbarbosa: Python 3.8 is out and now it almost is becoming a subset of Lisp :D (positional only parameters and assignment expressions)
2019-10-15T12:06:46Z lxbarbosa: almost ...
2019-10-15T12:06:52Z Shinmera: Thank god Python is off-topic.
2019-10-15T12:07:07Z lxbarbosa: lol
2019-10-15T12:07:53Z flip214: Shinmera: thanks!  I'd have hoped for some "easy" way ;)
2019-10-15T12:09:00Z Shinmera: Ain't hard, just annoying.
2019-10-15T12:09:06Z Shinmera: But that's C for ya
2019-10-15T12:13:00Z flip214: Shinmera: hmmm... no. CFFI could allow to use a void* to "get back" to the lisp closures (as long as the implementation supports that too, of course)
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2019-10-15T12:41:59Z p_l: theoretically it could provide callback to a closure in general, but yeah, implementation support needed
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2019-10-15T14:13:44Z dlowe: does anyone here work on parenscript?
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2019-10-15T14:22:56Z loke: dlowe: I used to use it.
2019-10-15T14:23:08Z loke: I like using it for writing view functions for Couchdb
2019-10-15T14:24:29Z dlowe: Yeah, I have a not-very-serious documentation typo I wanted to mention
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2019-10-15T14:41:38Z ebrasca: Hi
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2019-10-15T14:57:13Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
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2019-10-15T15:19:25Z ebrasca: Assambler is hard to understand.
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2019-10-15T15:25:55Z p_l: ebrasca: how so?
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2019-10-15T15:30:53Z ebrasca: p_l: I try to port Mezzano to Talos II , I have done some initial work.
2019-10-15T15:31:04Z p_l: that's the context I took :)
2019-10-15T15:31:27Z ebrasca: p_l: But I am not sure how to combine assambler instructions.
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2019-10-15T15:32:30Z ebrasca: p_l: Here what I have done for now https://github.com/ebrasca/Mezzano/blob/ppc64le/compiler/lap-ppc64le.lisp
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2019-10-15T15:34:03Z p_l: what do you mean by "combine assembler instructions" in this case?
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2019-10-15T15:34:35Z ebrasca: Like how to make stack pile.
2019-10-15T15:35:07Z ebrasca: I think I understand how to add numbers and some other easy tasks.
2019-10-15T15:35:15Z p_l: ahh
2019-10-15T15:35:39Z p_l: usually, for stack, you just declare some location (usually register) to hold "top" of the stack
2019-10-15T15:36:31Z p_l: when you want to push something on the stack, you increment/decrement (depends on ABI) that register, and write data into new location
2019-10-15T15:36:52Z p_l: let's say I want to put 4-byte integer 0xDEADBEEF on the stack
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2019-10-15T15:38:49Z p_l: (add *stack-register* *stack-register* 4) (STORE *stack-register* #|Here used for its value as address!|# #XDEADBEEF)
2019-10-15T15:39:12Z p_l: this is making some assumptions about instructions etc
2019-10-15T15:39:41Z p_l: I'd recommend checking how amd64 mezzano code handles ABI
2019-10-15T15:39:51Z p_l: things like entry into function, return from function, etc.
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2019-10-15T15:45:23Z ebrasca: codegen code is like magic
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2019-10-15T15:45:54Z p_l: hmm
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2019-10-15T15:46:15Z p_l: I think there was some interesting examples, for SBCL but showing how codegen happens
2019-10-15T15:47:19Z p_l: https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/ <--- this shows simple FORTH implemented into native code, including actually loading instructions into memory etc.
2019-10-15T15:47:36Z p_l: it still uses SBCL's VOP framework, so it might be not exact, but it might shine some light
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2019-10-15T15:48:45Z ebrasca: I have read this https://github.com/ebrasca/Mezzano/blob/ppc64le/compiler/backend/x86-64/codegen.lisp codegen.
2019-10-15T15:49:03Z ebrasca: It have "Create stack frame" .
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2019-10-15T15:49:44Z ebrasca: It start with "push" and "mov64"
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2019-10-15T16:06:20Z p_l: it has a bit more
2019-10-15T16:06:31Z p_l: but it's stretched across multiple methods
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2019-10-15T16:08:45Z TexadimirLeanin: If I already know about c++ and c and have messed with emacs for a couple years now, how long does it take to learnt he language basics of elisp?
2019-10-15T16:09:08Z TexadimirLeanin: can you learn the language syntax and concepts of elisp in a couple days or is this a longer journey?
2019-10-15T16:09:57Z Josh_2: TexadimirLeanin Sorry, this is the IRC channel for Common Lisp, not elisp... but lisps syntax is pretty different, it won't take long to use it but I'd say it will take longer to 'get it'
2019-10-15T16:11:24Z p_l: I recommend sticking for few weeks writing some programs, then figuring if it's still a problem. and by weeks I mean weeks measured by "every weekday I wrote a small program"
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2019-10-15T16:25:45Z p_l: TexadimirLeanin: the point is to spend some time immersing in the language, to verify that first impression (which is invariably based on existing programming experience) doesn't cloud perception
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2019-10-15T16:32:41Z TexadimirLeanin: p_L Josh_2 i see, this is what i suspected from what i could gleam off of my emacs config file...
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2019-10-15T17:15:03Z thijso: How can I substitute a different function only if that different function (in a different package) is defined? I tried something like: (when (find-package 'dht-test) (setf (symbol-function '%debuglog) #'dht-test:%debuglog)) but then it complains about there not being a package called dht-test during compilation. This is in ECL, btw
2019-10-15T17:15:51Z Bike: instead of #'dht-test:%debuglog, (fdefinition (find-symbol "%DEBUGLOG" "DHT-TEST")), i guess
2019-10-15T17:15:58Z Xach: thijso: you could defer...like bike said
2019-10-15T17:16:14Z thijso: Ah, thanks
2019-10-15T17:16:56Z thijso: I was looking how I could do (symbol-function .. in a certain package, but that doesn't exist. Thanks, Bike
2019-10-15T17:17:34Z Bike: symbol function works with a symbol, so you just need to have the right symbol
2019-10-15T17:17:43Z thijso: yay, that seems to work
2019-10-15T17:18:31Z thijso: so (symbol-funtion (find-symbol ..)) would also work?
2019-10-15T17:18:41Z thijso: just to understand
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2019-10-15T17:24:46Z Bike: yes, fdefinition is like symbol-function except that it can also deal with setf functions.
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2019-10-15T17:35:38Z quantico: hi, i understand this may be the wrong place entirely to ask, but does anyone have an idea on how i may run this lisp program?
2019-10-15T17:35:43Z quantico: https://sep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/paulgraham/bel.bel
2019-10-15T17:36:06Z quantico: it's apparently a new dialect of lisp called Bel "written in itself" but i have no idea how to make it run. o_o
2019-10-15T17:36:11Z dlowe: quantico: this channel is for common lisp and no one can make it run
2019-10-15T17:36:25Z dlowe: if you want to talk about lisp other than common lisp, please join ##lisp
2019-10-15T17:38:10Z p_l: quantico: but generally probably you need to get a copy of Bel from Paul Graham
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2019-10-15T17:42:51Z p_l: except it appears there's none
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2019-10-15T17:43:51Z quantico: p_l: right, dlowe thanks i appreciate that feedback and will redirect myself
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2019-10-15T20:59:25Z LdBeth: After I start learning APL I now think if abstraction is really helpful?
2019-10-15T21:01:24Z LdBeth: Why people need start with design class hierarchy/ADTs to programming
2019-10-15T21:02:02Z Shinmera: This seems hardly on topic.
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2019-10-15T21:17:52Z LdBeth: Maybe, but I always find such a itch
2019-10-15T21:17:53Z LdBeth: https://www.sandimetz.com/blog/2016/1/20/the-wrong-abstraction
2019-10-15T21:21:41Z LdBeth: > Programmer B feels honor-bound to retain the existing abstraction, but since isn't exactly the same for every case, they alter the code to take a parameter, and then add logic to conditionally do the right thing based on the value of that parameter.
2019-10-15T21:22:26Z LdBeth: sometimes I feel I'm the Programmer B when I use a class from a CL lib
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2019-10-15T21:24:27Z Shinmera: Sorry to hear that.
2019-10-15T21:24:50Z aeth: CL isn't a particuarly noun-based language, and deep inheritance hierarchies don't seem to be too common. The last time I used inheritance at all, it was for gray streams
2019-10-15T21:25:07Z aeth: I'm guessing CLIM is probably the major use of inheritance in CL
2019-10-15T21:25:20Z Shinmera: ???
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2019-10-15T21:25:59Z gjvc: i got "Lisp in small pieces" today
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2019-10-15T21:27:00Z aeth: Shinmera: Compare an average CLOS system to an average Java or C++ system. In the latter, you're far more likely to have to rely on flow charts of interactions between heavy inheritance-using classes, while in the former you're probably going to be working mainly with generics that are almost indistinguishable from regular functions. And quite often you're supposed to use :before/:after/:around on those to customize, instead of inheritance.
2019-10-15T21:27:13Z aeth: At least ime
2019-10-15T21:27:44Z gjvc: aeth sounds about right to me
2019-10-15T21:28:01Z aeth: Shinmera: The main place where I've personally used inheritance heavily is in the way trivial-gray-streams works (which might be one reason why they're not universally liked), and I suspect CLIM is similar but I haven't used it yet.
2019-10-15T21:28:09Z aeth: Sorry for writing it poorly the first time around, I'm exhausted
2019-10-15T21:28:56Z aeth: What I mean about noun-based is that in Java/C++/etc., your APIs are often noun-oriented, while even in CLOS-heavy CL, your APIs are probably still verb-oriented (in this case generic functions rather than regular functions)
2019-10-15T21:29:16Z Shinmera: I'm more confused about your assumption that CLIM is the only real user of inheritance hierarchies.
2019-10-15T21:30:07Z aeth: Shinmera: I didn't say "the only real user", I said "the major use" as in "the most elaborate". I haven't read any documentation as elaborate as CLIM for anything else quite like that, but feel free to show me something else.
2019-10-15T21:30:26Z aeth: It has been a while, though. Is CLIM composition over inheritance? I would be shocked.
2019-10-15T21:30:52Z Shinmera: Mixins and the resulting hierarchies are not an uncommon strategy at all
2019-10-15T21:30:53Z jackdaniel: clim is mostly arranged around protocols
2019-10-15T21:31:14Z selwyn: what is objectionable in trivial-gray-streams?
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2019-10-15T21:31:30Z aeth: Is there a better example for elaborate use of inheritance then?
2019-10-15T21:31:36Z Shinmera: selwyn: Some of the generic functions are in the CL pcakage, others are not.
2019-10-15T21:31:40Z Shinmera: selwyn: It's slow.
2019-10-15T21:31:46Z Shinmera: selwyn: That's about it
2019-10-15T21:31:46Z jackdaniel: protocol classes indeed are meant to be inherited from, but that is more a signal, that this class implements said protocol
2019-10-15T21:31:55Z aeth: If CLIM doesn't count then it's literally just gray streams as far as elaborate inheritance goes, at least what I've encountered personally.
2019-10-15T21:32:05Z jackdaniel: unless you inherit from standard-foo (instead of the protocol class foo), you need to implement foo's protocols all by yourself
2019-10-15T21:32:12Z aeth: (And gray streams aren't that elaborate.)
2019-10-15T21:34:32Z aeth: selwyn: It's controversial enough of an API to have at least one (probably more) alternative, as well as not being added to the base language itself (I think it was a proposal, wasn't it?)
2019-10-15T21:34:50Z selwyn: i think it was
2019-10-15T21:35:13Z Shinmera: I don't think I've ever heard of an alternative
2019-10-15T21:35:36Z jackdaniel: trivial gray streams were a rejected proposal but are useful enough to be included in most implementations
2019-10-15T21:36:07Z jackdaniel: some slowness may come from the gf dispatch, but other than that it is the programmer fault if they are slow
2019-10-15T21:36:08Z aeth: Shinmera: SBCL has three extensions included, including gray streams and simple streams, where the latter is an alternative to the former. http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Streams
2019-10-15T21:36:33Z Shinmera: Ah, interesting.
2019-10-15T21:36:53Z aeth: Where there's two there's probably many, so I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few more on some dark corner of the Internet, perhaps from the mid 90s
2019-10-15T21:37:08Z aeth: Those are the only ones I'm aware of, though
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2019-10-15T21:40:15Z jackdaniel: aeth: to be meticulous there are clim streams: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/P-V.html#_756, http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/P-VI.html#_1053 ; of course they are tailored for typed screen input and output formatting
2019-10-15T21:40:53Z aeth: jackdaniel: ah, okay, I actually was aware at one point that those were different, so my bad.
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2019-10-15T21:42:55Z jackdaniel: they are implemented with trivial gray stream protocol
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2019-10-16T02:02:33Z adlai: is there a dedicated channel for ECL discussion?
2019-10-16T02:03:39Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2019-10-16T02:05:08Z adlai is estimating an ETA for ECL issue 305 fixing itself in the absence of external motivation
2019-10-16T02:08:36Z adlai /join #ecl #\Newline ;;; please continue this conversation there :)
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2019-10-16T04:44:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-16T04:45:03Z Josh_2: 'mornin beach :)
2019-10-16T04:46:35Z loke: hellp beach!
2019-10-16T04:46:36Z loke:                    [04:23]
2019-10-16T04:46:36Z loke: *** mr_lou (~misthalos@077213104235.dynamic.telenor.dk) has joined channel
2019-10-16T04:46:36Z loke:     #atariscne
2019-10-16T04:46:40Z loke: *** tIn (~tIn@dslb-090-186-115-121.090.186.pools.vodafone-ip.de) has joined
2019-10-16T04:46:43Z loke:     channel #atariscne                                                  [04:25]
2019-10-16T04:46:46Z loke: <ggn> wooohooo get your linux root access before it's patched           [04:41]
2019-10-16T04:46:46Z loke: <wietze> sup                                                            [05:38]
2019-10-16T04:46:52Z loke: <wietze> ew                                                             [05:39]
2019-10-16T04:46:52Z loke: <wietze> makes you wonder how long thats been around
2019-10-16T04:46:55Z loke: <ggn> tried it on a super ageing linux install and yup it's there       [05:40]
2019-10-16T04:46:58Z Josh_2: loke: are you okay?
2019-10-16T04:46:59Z loke: <wietze> word                                                           [05:42]
2019-10-16T04:47:02Z loke: <Harekiet> macos, just do it!                                           [06:01]
2019-10-16T04:47:05Z loke: <evl> TOS! Zero sudo bugs there                                         [06:07]
2019-10-16T04:47:08Z loke: <ggn> yeeeah boi                                                        [06:09]
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2019-10-16T04:47:18Z loke:                                                                         [06:34]
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2019-10-16T04:47:22Z loke:     #atariscne                                                          [06:44]
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2019-10-16T04:47:32Z loke:                                                                         [06:53]
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2019-10-16T04:47:39Z loke:     #atariscne                                                          [08:14]
2019-10-16T04:47:42Z loke: <gorgh> hi scenish sceners                                              [08:15]
2019-10-16T04:47:45Z loke: <ggn> you still want that greetings list? only 10 zloti!                [08:16]
2019-10-16T04:47:48Z loke: <gorgh> yes, I would love to have a current list of the most trendy names, I
2019-10-16T04:47:52Z loke:         take it!                                                        [08:19]
2019-10-16T04:47:52Z loke: <tat___> you should do a list of entirely invented group names          [08:24]
2019-10-16T04:47:55Z loke: <gorgh> I just want to be liked like those shader guy
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2019-10-16T04:50:37Z ebrasca: loke: ???
2019-10-16T04:51:44Z ebrasca: Morning beach!
2019-10-16T04:52:05Z loke: Yeah. accidental paste
2019-10-16T04:52:08Z loke: sorry about that
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2019-10-16T08:49:18Z no-defun-allowed: Should I write (not (find .....)) or (null (find .....))?
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2019-10-16T08:49:59Z Shinmera: depends on whether you want to find the null or not find what you're looking for.
2019-10-16T08:50:35Z no-defun-allowed: I want to not find what I'm looking for.
2019-10-16T08:50:49Z Shinmera: then (not (find ..))
2019-10-16T08:50:54Z no-defun-allowed: And what I'm looking for won't ever be NIL.
2019-10-16T08:51:04Z Shinmera: right, cause find won't distinguish that case anyway
2019-10-16T08:51:06Z no-defun-allowed: Right, thanks.
2019-10-16T08:51:09Z Shinmera: (member does, if you have a list)
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2019-10-16T08:52:34Z Shinmera: Often you can also avoid the not altogether by reshuffling clauses.
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2019-10-16T08:55:18Z no-defun-allowed: I'll have to take a look then.
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2019-10-16T09:23:04Z decent-username: I wanted to understand how :adjustable modifies the characteristics of an array. Therefore I've read what the HyperSpec had to say, but it didn't really help me. Why would I want to use ":adjustable t" when creating an array?
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2019-10-16T09:25:33Z jackdaniel: decent-username: i.e when the average case is that array will hold 4 elements but in rare occasions it needs to hold 1024 elements
2019-10-16T09:25:56Z jackdaniel: you create an array of size 4 and when you exceed that number it is adjusted
2019-10-16T09:26:25Z decent-username: hm... but for that I would need to supply :fill-pointer, right?
2019-10-16T09:26:54Z jackdaniel: if you use fill-pointer you allocate full array beforehand
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2019-10-16T09:27:21Z decent-username: Because doing something like (make-array 4 :adjustable t) will still raise an error when I try to use vector-push-extend
2019-10-16T09:27:28Z jackdaniel: if you have *a lot* of small arrays then it would be a huge waste to have each of them to have 1024 size
2019-10-16T09:27:53Z jackdaniel: you need to call adjust-array
2019-10-16T09:28:26Z decent-username: ahh, I didn't know such a function existed. I think that's the thing that led to the confusion.
2019-10-16T09:30:32Z decent-username: Thanks, that cleared things up for me. :)
2019-10-16T09:30:41Z jackdaniel: sure
2019-10-16T09:31:38Z jackdaniel: I'm still waiting for the new CL standard with left-fill-pointer, rotating arrays and conformal displacement :-)
2019-10-16T09:32:36Z jackdaniel: s/rotating arrays/rotating vectors/ ;)
2019-10-16T09:33:39Z decent-username: that would be pretty useful
2019-10-16T09:34:29Z decent-username: the rotating part would allow for the creating of some interesting functions.
2019-10-16T09:34:35Z decent-username: creation*
2019-10-16T09:36:29Z edgar-rft: rotating arrays sound like re-invention of the wheel :-)
2019-10-16T09:36:34Z phoe: jackdaniel: can I rotate a vector by pi/6?
2019-10-16T09:37:32Z jackdaniel: phoe: I mean circular buffers
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2019-10-16T09:42:55Z p_l: any language out there that has them in standard (not to be mistaken with abuse of communication primitives to make buffers
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2019-10-16T09:54:28Z no-defun-allowed: phoe: depends on the circumference of the vector and width of the cells, assuming a spiral vector
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2019-10-16T09:56:44Z no-defun-allowed: phoe: oh, you wanted circular vectors, and those were for circular vectors but I said spiral for some reason
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2019-10-16T09:58:56Z loke: My circular array: https://github.com/lokedhs/containers/blob/master/src/blocking-queue.lisp#L17
2019-10-16T10:00:07Z no-defun-allowed: does it accept rotations in degrees or radians?
2019-10-16T10:00:24Z loke: no-defun-allowed: No. It's one-dimensional.
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2019-10-16T10:00:34Z loke: You can't do roitations ineo one dimension .
2019-10-16T10:01:24Z no-defun-allowed: well, the vector is circular, the circumference is one-dimensional but the circle is two-dimensional
2019-10-16T10:02:20Z loke: no-defun-allowed: No. It's a one-dimensional vector. Just because its curvature is positive doesn't mean that there are any more dimensions.
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2019-10-16T10:07:13Z loke: Some interating related discussion: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/are-all-lines-one-dimensional.602170/
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2019-10-16T10:14:21Z scymtym: decent-username: VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND can adjust the array for you, but you have to specify both, :adjustable t and :fill-pointer VALID-INDEX-OR-T when creating the array for that to work
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2019-10-16T10:18:03Z loke: scymtym: My implementation does all of that already
2019-10-16T10:18:38Z loke: (also, no need for :fill-pointer)
2019-10-16T10:19:39Z scymtym: loke: i don't follow. decent-username asked why (make-array 4 :adjustable t) followed by VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND didn't work
2019-10-16T10:20:15Z loke: scymtym: Oh right. It was JD that talked about circular arrays
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2019-10-16T10:50:53Z montxero: Any ideas on how to deal with lambdas inside datastructures like a-lists?  I am running into problems using those. Check https://pastebin.com/UP3i4YzP out
2019-10-16T10:52:04Z Shinmera: what you have there is not a function, but a list of (function (lambda ...)), since it's within a quote.
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2019-10-16T10:53:21Z montxero: Shinmera: Oh.
2019-10-16T10:53:45Z decent-username: Those hash quotes before every lambda expression are also redundant right?
2019-10-16T10:54:00Z Shinmera: Yes.
2019-10-16T10:54:56Z montxero: decent-username: I think I doesn't matter in most cases
2019-10-16T10:55:02Z montxero: it**
2019-10-16T10:55:26Z Shinmera: it's more consistent to not use #' for lambda, because there are cases where you must write (lambda ..) and not #'(lambda ..)
2019-10-16T10:55:59Z decent-username: Yeah, but why would you writem them though? (lambda ...) is more readable than #'(lambda ...).
2019-10-16T10:56:24Z Shinmera: whether it's more readable or not is up for debate, but the consistency is not.
2019-10-16T10:56:41Z montxero: decent-username: A gentle introduction to symbolic computation suggested so.
2019-10-16T10:57:12Z decent-username: I've unfortunately already forgotten 50% what the book said.
2019-10-16T10:57:21Z decent-username: ;p
2019-10-16T10:57:24Z loke: decent-username: (LAMBDA () ...) has a macro-expansion that expands it to (FUNCTION (LAMBDA () ...)). Now, #'(LAMBDA () ...) is a reader-macro that expands into... (FUNCTION (LAMBDA () ...))
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2019-10-16T10:58:47Z montxero: Shinmera: Golly, you're right.  type-of shows it is a cons.
2019-10-16T10:59:14Z Shinmera: A already knew I was right because the printed representation of a function is not readable, so it would show as #<function ..>
2019-10-16T10:59:23Z decent-username: loke: Is there a case where it matters if the macro is expanded during read-time compared to compile time?
2019-10-16T11:00:00Z montxero: How can I use lambdas in an alist?
2019-10-16T11:00:12Z montxero: Or should I abandon the idea?
2019-10-16T11:00:19Z decent-username: just use a regular quote
2019-10-16T11:00:26Z decent-username: '(lambda (x) (+ x x))
2019-10-16T11:00:44Z Shinmera: what
2019-10-16T11:00:55Z montxero: decent-username: giving it a go
2019-10-16T11:00:59Z decent-username: that stores it as a list and it can later be evaluated
2019-10-16T11:01:02Z Shinmera: montxero: `((foo . ,(lambda () ..)))
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2019-10-16T11:01:43Z montxero: decent-username: didn't work
2019-10-16T11:01:52Z montxero: Shinmera: clever... trying now
2019-10-16T11:02:02Z decent-username: > . < damn
2019-10-16T11:02:27Z montxero: Shinmera: Boom!!
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2019-10-16T11:03:08Z d4ryus: When constructing lists with quasiquote, is it ok to modify them at runtime?
2019-10-16T11:03:10Z montxero: decent-username: not to worry, we both learned someting new... or rather relearned
2019-10-16T11:03:12Z decent-username: alright, guess there's some stuff goin on under the hood that I don't know.
2019-10-16T11:03:53Z Shinmera: d4ryus: Generally no, but usually the quasiquote will have to create a fresh structure at runtime anyway.
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2019-10-16T11:07:37Z d4ryus: Shinmera: hmm, interesting. Why/When would it need to create a fresh structure? It is creating a list at compile time, isnt it?
2019-10-16T11:08:00Z Shinmera: how could it make `(a ,b) at compile-time?
2019-10-16T11:08:16Z Shinmera: or better yet, `(a ,@b)
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2019-10-16T11:09:59Z Shinmera: In fact, if it didn't, that would be catastrophic for macros, since a second invocation of a macro would suddenly change the results of a previous invocation.
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2019-10-16T11:11:00Z decent-username: evaluating (setf blub (let ((xs '((a . #'(λ (s) s))))) (assoc 'a xs))) gives me something with the following printed representation (A FUNCTION (Λ (S) S))
2019-10-16T11:11:01Z loke: decent-username: You can intentionally create a pathological case where it does matter.
2019-10-16T11:11:13Z loke: In practice, no. At least not in my experience.
2019-10-16T11:11:36Z decent-username: loke: thx for the answer
2019-10-16T11:12:24Z loke: decent-username: You can play around with EVAL-WHEN, and you can create all sorts of weird behaviour.
2019-10-16T11:13:02Z decent-username: Then make I'll sure to stay the fuck away from that evil satanistic function.
2019-10-16T11:13:54Z d4ryus: Shinmera: huh, thats new to me, i thought quasiquote was expanded at macro expansion time. But yeah, one can use quasiquote to do ,@ at runtime, neat
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2019-10-16T11:18:48Z decent-username: LOL! I've configured emacs to show a literal lambda whenever I write "lambda" and that seems to mess with slime.
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2019-10-16T11:22:21Z montxero: decent-username: huh? I have that setting and it works a treat. No issues with slime here
2019-10-16T11:22:33Z montxero: how did you set it up?
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2019-10-16T11:22:41Z decent-username: I'll show you
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2019-10-16T11:24:18Z decent-username: https://pastebin.com/raw/GKA4mQvm
2019-10-16T11:24:22Z decent-username: that's what I did.
2019-10-16T11:25:06Z decent-username: ignore the second "The emacs lisp code:"
2019-10-16T11:25:17Z montxero: Oh... I have this in my emacs config:  (global-prettify-symbols-mode 1)
2019-10-16T11:25:51Z montxero: That's all you need I believe
2019-10-16T11:25:56Z decent-username: I don't know why slime has such issues with the lambda.
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2019-10-16T11:26:46Z montxero: In the past, I ran into some problems with a similar function to what you have.  I belive I got it from emacswiki
2019-10-16T11:26:48Z decent-username: maybe It interprets the character not as a unicode character but something else.
2019-10-16T11:27:14Z decent-username: I think I'll just remove my-pretty-lambda. T _ T
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2019-10-16T12:49:54Z ralt: oh my
2019-10-16T12:49:57Z ralt: thank you montxero
2019-10-16T12:50:15Z ralt: straight into my emacs config
2019-10-16T12:50:46Z montxero: ralt: you're welcome
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2019-10-16T13:04:43Z Shinmera: I don't suppose there's an ICC profile parser anywhere in Lisp
2019-10-16T13:06:02Z dlowe: it's there, but in its potential form
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2019-10-16T13:06:27Z Shinmera: I've dealt with that form much too often
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2019-10-16T13:14:46Z skidd0: hello, i just quickloaded timer, and when i try to (timer:enable-timers) i get an error that the package does not exist.
2019-10-16T13:15:03Z skidd0: so then, i went back through the docs and tried to install it using asdf-install
2019-10-16T13:15:26Z skidd0: but i get an extension failure "Don't know how to REQUIRE ASDF-INSTALL"
2019-10-16T13:15:42Z skidd0: which is odd, because the ASDF docs say i can skip installing asdf-install on sbcl
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2019-10-16T13:16:31Z Bike: uh, asdf-install is hella obsolete. what docs are you reading?
2019-10-16T13:16:34Z skidd0: so i am very confused on how quicklisp can find and load the package, but my lisp image can't
2019-10-16T13:16:45Z skidd0: https://www.xach.com/lisp/timer/doc.html
2019-10-16T13:16:55Z skidd0: see that's what i thought
2019-10-16T13:17:00Z Bike: wait, are you using asdf-install or quicklisp?
2019-10-16T13:17:03Z skidd0: which is why is used ql first
2019-10-16T13:17:23Z skidd0: but after i got the issue that the package couldn't be found, i decided to do what the docs say
2019-10-16T13:17:37Z dlowe: Xach: your cert expired 4 days ag
2019-10-16T13:18:19Z skidd0: would that be why?
2019-10-16T13:18:51Z Xach: uff
2019-10-16T13:18:57Z Shinmera: even if the system is named timer the package might not be
2019-10-16T13:19:13Z Bike: whoa, timer has a lot of dependencies
2019-10-16T13:19:32Z skidd0: Shinmera: in that doc, there's an example section where he calls (timer:enable-timers)
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2019-10-16T13:19:38Z skidd0: Bike: i saw that too
2019-10-16T13:19:49Z skidd0: perhaps i'll search for a different package for this task
2019-10-16T13:19:58Z Xach: timer is obsolete also. what it does has been incorporated directly into sbcl.
2019-10-16T13:20:04Z skidd0: oh
2019-10-16T13:20:10Z Bike: there's a timer-journaler package but oh ok.
2019-10-16T13:20:26Z Bike: i'm not even sure what i just installed, the directory apparently isn't called timer either...? oh well
2019-10-16T13:21:03Z skidd0: well thank you all for the help
2019-10-16T13:21:13Z skidd0: as usual, you're a nice bunch
2019-10-16T13:21:33Z skidd0: if i had lisp friends, i'd point them your way
2019-10-16T13:27:59Z Xach: i wonder if letsencrypt emails are going into spam. boo.
2019-10-16T13:29:18Z dlowe: skidd0: turn your existing friends into lisp friends
2019-10-16T13:35:03Z Xach: dlowe: fixed, thanks.
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2019-10-16T13:37:36Z dlowe: np :)
2019-10-16T13:40:40Z decent-username: <dlowe> skidd0: turn your existing friends into lisp friends <--This
2019-10-16T13:40:55Z decent-username: ^this
2019-10-16T13:41:03Z dlowe: disclaimer: I have not actually done so.
2019-10-16T13:41:11Z dlowe: despite my best efforts
2019-10-16T13:41:46Z Xach: time to turn your enemies into lisp enemies
2019-10-16T13:42:00Z decent-username: I'm molding an emacs user into a common-lisp programmer. It'll take some time though
2019-10-16T13:42:10Z Shinmera: Xach: they probably already are
2019-10-16T13:42:25Z decent-username: I should be getting paid for my Lisp shilling.
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2019-10-16T13:43:03Z dlowe: you get paid for results not for effort
2019-10-16T13:43:19Z dlowe: your payment the best, though: having another lisper around
2019-10-16T13:43:23Z dlowe: *is
2019-10-16T13:44:54Z decent-username: dlowe: there's some truth to that
2019-10-16T13:46:47Z skidd0: dlowe: i have constantly espoused the grand benefits of learning lisp and using SLIME to my programming coworkers. all have expressed interest. none have actually pursued. they're too busy being employed with Blubs and too millenial to actually follow up on their claims. i think they just want me to shut up about lisp
2019-10-16T13:47:05Z jackdaniel keeps for himself a few salty remarks about recommending lisp to friends
2019-10-16T13:47:31Z skidd0: let the salt vent out
2019-10-16T13:47:39Z skidd0: you won't feel any better tho
2019-10-16T13:47:42Z jackdaniel: nah, that wouldn't be constructive ,)
2019-10-16T13:48:04Z skidd0: good point. wish i could remove my rant
2019-10-16T13:48:14Z decent-username: REAL™ computer scientists and software developers use Common Lisp.
2019-10-16T13:48:41Z skidd0: i try my best to avoid the no-true-scottsmans
2019-10-16T13:48:47Z jackdaniel: real computer scientists and software developers get things done disregarding the language without calling others unreal ,p
2019-10-16T13:49:20Z jackdaniel checks no-true-scottsman on urban dictionary
2019-10-16T13:49:46Z Cymew: Real programmers write in Fortran, right?
2019-10-16T13:50:10Z decent-username: HERETIC! Burn Cymew at the stake!
2019-10-16T13:50:20Z Cymew: LOL! :)
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2019-10-16T13:51:02Z Cymew: I have actually been paid for writing both Fortran and CL.
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2019-10-16T13:55:24Z dlowe: You know, at one time all programmers were big nerds, but that hasn't been true for decades now. I don't think it's reasonable to expect everyone to have an obsession with a job skill.
2019-10-16T13:56:23Z Cymew: So very true.
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2019-10-16T13:57:45Z skidd0: dlowe: employers and hiring managers seem to
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2019-10-16T13:58:37Z dlowe: skidd0: employers and hiring managers know that "passion" drives down salaries
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2019-10-16T13:58:49Z dlowe: they're just being cheapskates
2019-10-16T13:59:34Z dlowe: anyway, this is a nice #lispcafe discussion
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2019-10-16T14:01:23Z skidd0: do new threads use the same std-out stream?
2019-10-16T14:01:35Z jackdaniel: "forthran", what a nice name for a new programming language! ;)
2019-10-16T14:01:57Z dlowe: forthanisp?
2019-10-16T14:02:20Z jackdaniel: skidd0: it depeneds, but you may add the streams to initial-bindings
2019-10-16T14:02:34Z jackdaniel: then they will
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2019-10-16T14:06:01Z pfdietz: Ah, format hackery.  ~:[ ... ~; ~:* ... ~]
2019-10-16T14:06:53Z Xach: ~:D
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2019-10-16T14:11:07Z montxero: What are some best practices for developing gui / command line applications.
2019-10-16T14:11:54Z dlowe: what other kinds are there?
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2019-10-16T14:14:46Z p_l: dlowe: daemons?
2019-10-16T14:14:50Z montxero: dlowe: programs that just run in the repl, maybe web-apps...
2019-10-16T14:15:29Z p_l: on-demand functions/blocks in specialized hosting environments
2019-10-16T14:15:58Z p_l: (often called serverless these days, 1960s called and says CICS did it back then better and cheaper)
2019-10-16T14:16:03Z dlowe: specialized command line applications :)
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2019-10-16T14:22:06Z montxero: okay so there are several kinds of applications, I just want to be able to make an application that doesn't have to run only in the repl
2019-10-16T14:22:38Z jackdaniel: montxero: check out CLON (in quicklisp net.didierverna.clon)
2019-10-16T14:22:44Z jackdaniel: it has a good documentation
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2019-10-16T14:23:09Z jackdaniel: it is for creating console binaries with an interface --with-flags --and-options=42
2019-10-16T14:23:18Z montxero: jackdaniel: thanks... all over it
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2019-10-16T14:23:57Z jackdaniel: if you are interested in gui applications there is McCLIM (that may be combined with clon!) and ffi bindings like eql5, commonqt and a few others
2019-10-16T14:24:19Z dlowe: also, to find other library options, this page is useful: https://cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries
2019-10-16T14:24:45Z jackdaniel: regarding daemonizing applications you'll probably have to write your service definitions yourself, but that's not surprise given only you know how your program will be invoked
2019-10-16T14:25:08Z dlowe: I have a couple of lisp daemons running under systemd. It wasn't difficult.
2019-10-16T14:26:03Z jackdaniel: I second the above
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2019-10-16T14:38:56Z p_l: don't "daemonize", run like a foreground process, use supervision feature in init system. done.
2019-10-16T14:39:03Z p_l: (systemd is shit though :P)
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2019-10-16T14:43:16Z pjb: Pack Your Bags – Systemd Is Taking You to a New Home <https://hackaday.com/2019/10/16/pack-your-bags-systemd-is-taking-you-to-a-new-home/>
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2019-10-16T14:48:32Z montxero: bye folks
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2019-10-16T16:52:21Z flip214: pjb: is that on-topic because it got rewritten in Lisp?   ;)
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2019-10-16T18:06:11Z lieven gets a vision of a Common Lisp implementation by Poettering
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2019-10-16T19:08:48Z pjb: flip214: pretty please, rewrite it in CL!
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2019-10-16T23:03:19Z aeth: I wonder the implications of writing something like that in Common Lisp. e.g. Memory usage is higher, so I guess you'd want to put it all in one process instead of having dozens of daemons (a few hundred MB vs. GBs of RAM usage)
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2019-10-16T23:04:43Z aeth: (What I mean is that the fixed cost k in RAM usage is much higher for each process, so you could save 19k worth of RAM of you use one daemon instead of 20)
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2019-10-16T23:04:46Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, one runtime would have less overhead than one runtime per process.
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2019-10-17T05:31:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-17T05:32:13Z ck_: Good morning, beach
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2019-10-17T06:22:29Z flip214: aeth: well, if you can share all the library and executable pages across all the processes, and need only 1MB of dynamic space or so, actual RAM usage might be the same or even smaller (because you don't need all the shared libraries' jump tables)
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2019-10-17T07:07:53Z jdz: pjb: maybe you'd be interested in Shepherd.
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2019-10-17T07:43:14Z p_l: aeth: I've been looking at implementing an alternative, using ECL, though probably statically linked
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2019-10-17T07:44:43Z jackdaniel: I recall someone has created init binary with ecl which was directly called by linux
2019-10-17T07:44:51Z jackdaniel: I don't know where it go nor I do not have any links
2019-10-17T07:46:52Z p_l: there's nothing special about init binary except that PID1 should never exit (and of course it better reap processes)
2019-10-17T07:47:02Z p_l: but I thing that PID1 should be as small as possible
2019-10-17T07:47:13Z p_l: the rest of the system management can go live in separate daemons
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2019-10-17T07:48:38Z LdBeth: PID is not required to be static linked
2019-10-17T07:48:44Z LdBeth: ^  1
2019-10-17T07:49:39Z p_l: LdBeth: but it helps when you have a reason to restart it
2019-10-17T07:51:59Z ralt: jackdaniel: that was probably me in https://gitlab.com/ralt/niboot
2019-10-17T07:52:11Z p_l: also, there's no need for PID1 to use anything that requires dynamic linking, and there's no way to atomically replace multiple files, so with glibc's insanity you can get a moment where it reloads while the dynamic libs are incompatible with each other
2019-10-17T07:52:25Z ralt: but it's the initramfs, not PID1
2019-10-17T07:52:44Z p_l: yes, a freak case, but supposedly so is getting into race condition between systemd and your fingers
2019-10-17T07:52:51Z jackdaniel: ralt: that's very likely, thank you for speaking up :-)
2019-10-17T07:53:06Z p_l: ralt: initramfs isn't really a separate thing, so it's PID1 :)
2019-10-17T07:53:26Z ralt: p_l: typically you boot into the initramfs, which then pivot_root into the new PID1
2019-10-17T07:53:33Z p_l: well, whatever gets started as PID1
2019-10-17T07:53:34Z Cymew: This all really sounds like #lispcafe
2019-10-17T07:53:53Z p_l: ralt: yeah, but initramfs is notactually a special case anywhere
2019-10-17T07:54:06Z ralt: it does get the special rootfs :)
2019-10-17T07:54:15Z p_l: ralt: not even that xD
2019-10-17T07:54:27Z jackdaniel: since it may be bundled with the kernel it often plays crucial role when you are developing embedded boards
2019-10-17T07:54:33Z jackdaniel: that said it is indeed offtopic here
2019-10-17T07:54:54Z p_l: on more #lisp side, has anyone played with ECL + mulibc?
2019-10-17T07:55:20Z p_l: *musl
2019-10-17T07:55:33Z jackdaniel: I had reports that it worked fine with uclibc and musl
2019-10-17T07:55:39Z p_l: I see it as a working package in Alpine, but I'd prefer to build a static binary, hmmm
2019-10-17T07:56:07Z jackdaniel: what is mulibc?
2019-10-17T07:56:19Z jackdaniel: nvm, I myself started the offtopic, sorry ^_^
2019-10-17T07:56:26Z p_l: jackdaniel: I mixed up musl name
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2019-10-17T08:02:05Z ralt: the discussion reminded me of this old project as well... https://gitlab.com/ralt/linit/
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2019-10-17T08:04:02Z ralt: didn't go anywhere, but kinda shows where the limits of some implementations can be for being so high-level. At least for the old me.
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2019-10-17T08:04:57Z p_l: ralt: might have weird interactions between what shared libs were present in "normal" environment and later
2019-10-17T08:05:14Z ralt: p_l: no, rather with the existence (or lack-of) of /proc
2019-10-17T08:05:22Z p_l: heh
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2019-10-17T08:09:17Z sam47: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-17T08:09:17Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=68dbbefd will be valid until 08:15 UTC.
2019-10-17T08:10:52Z p_l: ralt: hmm, I see a dag implementation in linit, might steal some bits ;)
2019-10-17T08:12:36Z ralt: p_l: feel free, but I am not a smart man
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2019-10-17T08:14:12Z ralt: speaking of, Shinmera I was thinking if it was fine with you to fork portacle to add some custom startup on top of it. I'm thinking of writing some software that would essentially give you an API in slime, so having a bundle+custom startup would be perfect for me.
2019-10-17T08:16:09Z sam47: I was trying to register account on https://gitlab.common-lisp.net. It forces 2FA. I have no smartphone, so, I can't have account.
2019-10-17T08:16:31Z Shinmera: ralt: Sure, do what you want.
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2019-10-17T08:16:59Z ralt: ty
2019-10-17T08:17:06Z Shinmera: Just.. rename it to something that's not Portacle :)
2019-10-17T08:17:08Z antoszka: sam47: No other 2FA types allowed? Yubikey? Authy? Generic OTP generator?
2019-10-17T08:17:12Z antoszka: oh
2019-10-17T08:17:17Z ralt: obviously
2019-10-17T08:19:15Z no-defun-allowed: It can be any other OTP generator, and I believe there's desktop generators.
2019-10-17T08:19:36Z no-defun-allowed: I was pissed off initially that the site suggested it had to be Google Authenticator, but any will do.
2019-10-17T08:19:46Z jackdaniel: maybe it would be a good idea to mention it on gitlab.cl.net
2019-10-17T08:20:03Z Duuqnd: AFAIK the most used type of 2FA is an open protocol, so there should be desktop programs
2019-10-17T08:20:08Z ralt: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-17T08:20:08Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=cde8f4b9 will be valid until 08:30 UTC.
2019-10-17T08:20:23Z jackdaniel: me too, but I've suggested a change to easye and we he has escalated it to gitlab.com project and now it suggests also freeotp (and f-droid repository) as an alternative
2019-10-17T08:20:34Z jackdaniel: s/we he/he/
2019-10-17T08:20:46Z no-defun-allowed: However it seems it breaks every so often, since FreeOTP isn't giving me valid numbers any more.
2019-10-17T08:21:02Z jackdaniel: works4me
2019-10-17T08:21:12Z ralt: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-17T08:21:12Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=cde8f4b9 will be valid until 08:30 UTC.
2019-10-17T08:21:25Z no-defun-allowed: This is the second time it's happened, so I think something I've done is wrong.
2019-10-17T08:21:26Z antoszka: Duuqnd: authy afair has a number of "clients"
2019-10-17T08:21:33Z antoszka: that's good enough
2019-10-17T08:21:55Z ralt: no-defun-allowed: it's fairly sensitive to clock syncs
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2019-10-17T08:22:25Z Duuqnd: antoszka: Authy has given me a bit of trouble in the past. Specifically, Twitch requires authy and didn't let me use my normal OTP program.
2019-10-17T08:22:34Z antoszka: That's strange.
2019-10-17T08:22:50Z antoszka: Especially that the proto is open.
2019-10-17T08:23:10Z antoszka: A service shouldn't be able to differentiate the OTP client.
2019-10-17T08:23:38Z p_l: google authenticator tends to be mentioned because it's easier to tell people "Google Authenticator compatible" than have them remember the right OTP variation
2019-10-17T08:23:45Z Duuqnd: I think authy might have its own proprietary protocol as well as the normal OTP.
2019-10-17T08:23:50Z Duuqnd: Not sure though.
2019-10-17T08:24:37Z no-defun-allowed: Huh, I set my phone to use the network provided time and it works now. Yay.
2019-10-17T08:25:07Z ralt: who am I supposed to contact if trying to register on gitlab.ci.net tells me "Your account has been blocked"?
2019-10-17T08:25:53Z ralt: there isn't exactly an appropriate "Contact" page :)
2019-10-17T08:30:15Z jackdaniel: ralt: #common-lisp.net would be the place given you use irc
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2019-10-17T09:27:59Z ralt: jackdaniel: thanks
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2019-10-17T11:28:15Z ECLIPSE: hi
2019-10-17T11:29:10Z ECLIPSE: I need help with lisp file ,,,, I have FAS4 and lisp files malware ,,  but I can not decompile or analysis this kind of malware, , ,, any help
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2019-10-17T11:31:44Z scymtym: the "lisp" file extension is usually used for Common Lisp source code. there should be no need to decompile such a file
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2019-10-17T11:36:16Z ECLIPSE: scymtym , I am sorry ,,,   I have binary data named  the first byte of it is AutoCAD-86 shape   ,  and also I  have FAS4  file ,,  the both of files is malware's
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2019-10-17T11:36:35Z ck_ is slightly amused
2019-10-17T11:37:43Z ECLIPSE: I was able to decompile a bit of FAS file ,,,,  but the tool I used is not working good ,,  I need something that can convert it to assembly so I can read it and analysis
2019-10-17T11:38:03Z beach: ECLIPSE: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2019-10-17T11:41:15Z ECLIPSE: beach , the resources is less for this kind of malware  ,  and think that maybe someone here have an idea about how to analysis it ,,,,,,  becouse the malware is writen in Lisp language ,,
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2019-10-17T11:41:49Z beach: Autocad is not written in Common Lisp, and Common Lisp is what this channel is about.
2019-10-17T11:41:52Z clothespin_: eclipse: this channel is far far removed from autocad
2019-10-17T11:42:27Z ECLIPSE: ok , Sorry
2019-10-17T11:42:31Z ECLIPSE: thank you
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2019-10-17T12:12:34Z pjb: however, there is generally money in autocad gigs…
2019-10-17T12:13:03Z ralt: let's rename #lisp to #autocad and swim in bills then
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2019-10-17T12:23:39Z thijso: I though AutoCAD had moved away from using lisp?
2019-10-17T12:23:51Z thijso: s/though/thought/
2019-10-17T12:24:49Z z0d: to Python? :->
2019-10-17T12:26:06Z pjb: autobasic
2019-10-17T12:31:05Z clothespin_: autocad will never move away from autolisp so long is there is an autocad because of the huge volumes of autolisp code out there
2019-10-17T12:32:13Z beach: However, there was a time when the company announced that they were going to rewrite it in Common Lisp.  That project was canceled, though.
2019-10-17T12:32:44Z clothespin_: rewrite autolisp in common lisp or rewrite autocad in common lisp?
2019-10-17T12:32:46Z p_l: there was a time when they tried to get people to switch over to VBA
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2019-10-17T12:33:31Z p_l: this led to situation where there was (still is?) a separate company providing an IDE for AutoLISP, because the VBA approach didn't win much support from userbase, no matter how much it was pushed
2019-10-17T12:33:55Z p_l: (AutoLISP was the *very first* Lisp I encountered)
2019-10-17T12:34:05Z clothespin_: me two
2019-10-17T12:34:13Z clothespin_: too
2019-10-17T12:34:32Z beach: clothespin: The plan was to rewrite AutoCAD in Common Lisp.
2019-10-17T12:34:54Z p_l: AFAIK it was due to AutoLISP that my parents home had a book called "LISP Programming Language", which set me on a slow, long road to Lisp :)
2019-10-17T12:35:53Z clothespin_: that must have been before they rewrote it in C++
2019-10-17T12:36:06Z p_l: I don't think they ever "rewrote" it
2019-10-17T12:36:22Z clothespin_: it was initially C on the dos platform
2019-10-17T12:36:27Z p_l: even circa ~2004 there was still points where you looked and DOS looked back
2019-10-17T12:36:47Z clothespin_: then it became C++ after windows
2019-10-17T12:36:48Z p_l: clothespin_: IIRC it started not on DOS but some Unix platform, but quickly cornered the market by going for DOS
2019-10-17T12:37:48Z p_l: and due to availability on random PCs, similarly to Turbo Pascal, it took over Poland in a storm
2019-10-17T12:39:42Z thijso: Ah, yes, beach, I remember being mildly excited about that (rewrite to Common Lisp)
2019-10-17T12:40:37Z jackdaniel: in scale from -3 to +3 in on-topicness it has +0.001 because words phrases and "lisp" and "common lisp" pop up every now and then ,-)
2019-10-17T12:40:54Z jackdaniel: s/words phrases and/phrases/
2019-10-17T12:41:59Z thijso: Funnily enough, I used AutoCAD and never encountered Lisp during that time. Only much later did I learn about Lisp and retroactively saw that AutoLisp existed...
2019-10-17T12:43:04Z clothespin_: AutoLisp returns nil if it encounters an unbound symbol
2019-10-17T12:43:15Z clothespin_: make debugging hard
2019-10-17T12:43:34Z Shinmera: That's real cool but it's not relevant to Common Lisp.
2019-10-17T12:43:43Z jackdaniel: I've tried to hint that :(
2019-10-17T12:44:05Z thijso: well, to be sure, jackdaniel, you said we were +0.001 on the good side...
2019-10-17T12:44:17Z clothespin_: well at least I'm not the only one who migrated from autolisp to common lisp
2019-10-17T12:44:47Z p_l: on more Common Lisp (well, pre-common but works on CL) CAD software, ICAD apparently was still available to some extent
2019-10-17T12:44:58Z p_l: now compiled using AFAIK ACL, using ported Flavors
2019-10-17T12:45:11Z clothespin_: it's been that way for 20 years
2019-10-17T12:45:43Z p_l: well, it seems a bit harder to get in the last 10
2019-10-17T12:45:47Z clothespin_: dassault systemes bought ICAD and that was pretty much the end of new development
2019-10-17T12:45:51Z p_l: and is more niche than CATIA
2019-10-17T12:46:01Z p_l: even before 2004, when AFAIK the buyout happened
2019-10-17T12:46:12Z p_l: that said, anyone has ICAD for Symbolics, I
2019-10-17T12:46:15Z p_l: I'm interested ;)
2019-10-17T12:47:13Z clothespin_: genworks started selling icad-like kbe when icad went south
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2019-10-17T12:48:10Z jackdaniel: https://gendl.org/ it is FOSS software n.b (agpl afair)
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2019-10-17T12:49:35Z p_l: yes, in my infinite(simally small) free time, I was thinking of adding one of the things missing from the free software version back, using a lispy (scheme-y?) geometry library
2019-10-17T12:50:09Z p_l: because the FOSS version of gendl misses few components, due to them being dependant on closed-source commercial packages
2019-10-17T12:50:19Z clothespin_: smlib
2019-10-17T12:50:22Z p_l: yep
2019-10-17T12:50:27Z p_l: the computational geometry code
2019-10-17T12:51:05Z clothespin_: it had basic geometry without smlib though, smlib was mainlly for nurbs
2019-10-17T12:51:27Z jackdaniel: according to documentation it still has
2019-10-17T12:53:19Z p_l: ... I just found that a project in which I had put my fingers a tiny bit and always thought was underfunded, has enough budget that if someone talked right way they could finance a lisp bonanza...
2019-10-17T12:53:56Z p_l: multinationals are insane, try fleecing one for lisp-programming money :|
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2019-10-17T13:06:47Z ralt: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-17T13:06:47Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=c86b369e will be valid until 13:15 UTC.
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2019-10-17T13:29:57Z Cymew: p_l: Go wild.
2019-10-17T13:30:18Z p_l: Cymew: if I had a way to break through the red tape? I would...
2019-10-17T13:30:32Z Cymew: That bad, eh?
2019-10-17T13:30:50Z p_l: Cymew: if it was easier, it would have been already done, if only to oust ATOS
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2019-10-17T13:55:25Z dlowe: p_l: project within your workplace?
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2019-10-17T14:03:22Z p_l: dlowe: not mine, my ex's
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2019-10-17T14:48:59Z rumbler3196: anyone having issues with paredit mode lately?  Its letting me delete closing parens which is frustrating
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2019-10-17T14:52:14Z rumbler3196: I should add, when in a slime repl
2019-10-17T14:52:37Z Xach has never tried paredit in the repl
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2019-10-17T14:58:25Z rumbler3196: Xach: ah, what do you use instead?
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2019-10-17T15:01:51Z selwyn: rumbler3196: do you have overwrite mode enabled?
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2019-10-17T15:02:45Z rumbler3196: I do not
2019-10-17T15:03:03Z Xach: rumbler3196: I don't use anything. If a form becomes too long to use simple paren balancing in the REPL, i write it in a file (sometimes a temporary one) to manage it.
2019-10-17T15:03:08Z selwyn: huh. out of ideas sorry. paredit is working fine for me
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2019-10-17T15:38:08Z pjb: note that paredit disables itself when parentheses become unbalanced in a buffer, outside of its control.  So: (write-line "1) then repl is not a lisp buffer!")
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2019-10-17T15:41:43Z rumbler3196: I'll try opening a new session and see what happens
2019-10-17T15:43:29Z rumbler3196: nope...
2019-10-17T15:43:50Z rumbler3196: paredit in the scratch buffer works fine.  I issue m-x slime and then activate paredit and parens don't keep
2019-10-17T15:44:50Z pjb: rumbler3196: what's your prompt?
2019-10-17T15:45:29Z rumbler3196: ; slime 2.24, CL-USER>
2019-10-17T15:45:40Z pjb: ok
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2019-10-17T15:45:52Z pjb: Type: M-x check-parens RET
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2019-10-17T15:46:36Z rumbler3196: this is where I get mixed up sometimes.  I installed slime from the package manager, then after I installed quicklisp I installed the quicklisp-slime-helper
2019-10-17T15:46:43Z rumbler3196: it doesn't appear to return anything
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2019-10-17T16:20:39Z rumbler3196: slime repl mode map rebinds backspace
2019-10-17T16:20:50Z rumbler3196: which seems to be taking precedence over paredit's bindings
2019-10-17T16:20:59Z rumbler3196: damn I love this editor
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2019-10-17T16:23:35Z Plomerama: #lisp
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2019-10-17T16:25:44Z Plomerama: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-17T16:25:44Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=97a2b8a1 will be valid until 16:30 UTC.
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2019-10-17T16:29:54Z jasom: I've been thinking; are restarts sufficient for implementing stackless coroutines?
2019-10-17T16:30:11Z Josh_2: don't restarts use the stack?
2019-10-17T16:30:37Z jasom: Josh_2: Stackless coroutines also use the stack.  It's a confusing name
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2019-10-17T16:30:58Z jasom: A stackless coroutine is a coroutine that cannot context-switch in a nested function.
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2019-10-17T16:32:30Z samlamamma: Finally a proper reason to use Common Lisp. http://quickdocs.org/trivial-left-pad/api
2019-10-17T16:32:57Z jasom: Josh_2: so the "stackless" part is that the TCB for the coroutine need not include a separate stack.
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2019-10-17T16:36:05Z Josh_2: (incf samlamamma )
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2019-10-17T16:37:00Z Bike: wouldn't the issue be that you can only resume the yielded coroutine at certain points, that is while the condition is being handled? you can't actually return to the caller and do something you were already doing.
2019-10-17T16:38:01Z Bike: yield to the caller, i mean
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2019-10-17T16:41:54Z Bike: guessing that yield = signal, resume = invoke-restart
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2019-10-17T16:43:49Z jasom: right; you can't invoke restarts out-of-order, so it's a no-go
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2019-10-17T16:50:00Z Bike: you have to actually maintain a state in the coroutine object, i would think
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2019-10-17T19:49:27Z jcowan: Can sbcl statically type-check keyword actual arguments when the type of the corresponding lambda argument is known?
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2019-10-17T20:19:58Z pfdietz: I do not know.
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2019-10-17T20:20:45Z pfdietz: FUNCTION types can specify the types of arguments.
2019-10-17T20:20:51Z pfdietz: of keyword arguments
2019-10-17T20:23:34Z pfdietz: If you declaim the type of the function using FTYPE, it will flag the type incompatibility at the call.
2019-10-17T20:23:53Z pfdietz: and issue a warning
2019-10-17T20:24:21Z pfdietz: But declaring the type of parameters in the function body itself?  No.
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2019-10-17T21:11:30Z jcowan: Okay, ftype is good enough for my purposes.
2019-10-17T21:11:53Z jcowan: I just said "lambda argument is known", as opposed to how it is known.
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2019-10-17T21:14:29Z pfdietz: I am happy to have over-answered your question. :)
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2019-10-17T22:57:49Z jcowan chuckles
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2019-10-17T22:58:56Z jcowan: Another question. If a lambda list specifies both &optional and &key, is it necessary to fill all optional arguments in the call before any keywords are detected, or is the presence of a keyword enough to trigger keyword processing?
2019-10-17T23:00:37Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, all optional arguments must be filled in first.
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2019-10-17T23:01:15Z no-defun-allowed: You can test with read-from-string, which takes two optional arguments then keyword arguments.
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2019-10-17T23:04:05Z clothespin: has anybody written the subset of clojure for concurrency in CL?
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2019-10-17T23:05:02Z clothespin: I see not-directly-related but similar functionality in lparallel and cl-async
2019-10-17T23:05:32Z no-defun-allowed: Can't imagine why, but what's that subset?
2019-10-17T23:06:11Z clothespin: i'm not talking about the heavy handed stuff like immutable datastructures and atoms and such
2019-10-17T23:06:50Z clothespin: i read the docs to blackbird, thought it was interesting
2019-10-17T23:06:53Z aeth: jcowan: (let ((l1 (list 1 2 3 :c 42)) (l2 (list 1 :c 42))) (flet ((test-optional-with-key (list) (destructuring-bind (foo &optional bar baz &key a b c) list (values foo bar baz a b c)))) (format t "~{~S ~}~%~{~S ~}~%" (multiple-value-list (test-optional-with-key l1)) (multiple-value-list (test-optional-with-key l2)))))
2019-10-17T23:07:04Z aeth: SBCL even gives a style warning there, although it exists in a few older functions in the standard
2019-10-17T23:07:13Z aeth: It would be reasonable for a language to only allow one or the other
2019-10-17T23:08:09Z aeth: For those who don't want to run it, the first line is "1 2 3 NIL NIL 42 " and the second is "1 :C 42 NIL NIL NIL ", so when the optionals aren't filled in the keyword is treated as an argument. And yes, this has caused a bug in my code before.
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2019-10-17T23:10:07Z aeth: And without destructuring bind: (let ((l1 (list 1 2 3 :c 42)) (l2 (list 1 :c 42))) (flet ((test-optional-with-key (foo &optional bar baz &key a b c) (values foo bar baz a b c))) (format t "~{~S ~}~%~{~S ~}~%" (multiple-value-list (multiple-value-call #'test-optional-with-key (values-list l1))) (multiple-value-list (multiple-value-call #'test-optional-with-key (values-list l2))))))
2019-10-17T23:10:13Z aeth: Only a bit more awkward
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2019-10-17T23:19:07Z jcowan nods.
2019-10-17T23:19:08Z jcowan: Thanks
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2019-10-17T23:30:05Z jcowan: aeth: Clisp definitely doesn't do that.  Given
2019-10-17T23:30:07Z jcowan: (defun foo (a b c &optional d e &key f g) (print (list a b c d e f g)))
2019-10-17T23:30:38Z jcowan: then (foo 1 2 3 :f 6 :g 7) => (1 2 3 :F 32 NIL 44)
2019-10-17T23:30:59Z aeth: My code does run in CLISP, and yes, without a style warning.
2019-10-17T23:31:17Z jcowan: aeth: Oops, I mixed two examples, obvs
2019-10-17T23:31:35Z aeth: SBCL does have the most helpful compiler, it warns you about stuff like a special variable without earmuffs. CCL can catch some bugs that SBCL doesn't because it interprets the standard differently, though
2019-10-17T23:31:48Z jcowan: (foo 1 2 3 :f 32 :g 44) => (1 2 3 :F 32 NIL 44)
2019-10-17T23:32:18Z jcowan: What is the NIL doing there?
2019-10-17T23:32:23Z Bike: that's f
2019-10-17T23:32:27Z Bike: you didn't pass an f keyword
2019-10-17T23:32:38Z Bike: it uses 1 2 3 :f as the optional arguments, and is left :g 44 for the keyword section
2019-10-17T23:32:43Z Bike: er
2019-10-17T23:32:49Z Bike: sorry, 1 2 3 :f 32 as the optional arguments.
2019-10-17T23:32:59Z aeth: jcowan: The default value of optionals and keywords are nil unless you specify one like &optional foo (bar 42) ; in this case foo is nil and bar is 42 if nothing is passed in
2019-10-17T23:33:19Z jcowan: Right, but there are keys f and g and I am specifying :f and :g
2019-10-17T23:33:27Z aeth: jcowan: In CL, there is no #<unspecified> or whatever a Scheme might use for stuff like that. Pretty much anywhere where there is a default value, it's nil, unless you explicitly use (values) or use an API that does
2019-10-17T23:33:30Z Bike: no you're not, you're specifying five optional arguments
2019-10-17T23:33:48Z jcowan: Say what?  a b c are mandatory, not optional
2019-10-17T23:33:57Z Bike: sorry, three required arguments and two optionals.
2019-10-17T23:34:01Z Bike: five fixed position arguments
2019-10-17T23:34:08Z jcowan: All right, that makes sense of it.
2019-10-17T23:34:48Z jcowan: So in fact you must specify all optional arguments, none can remain optional, if keyword arguments are to be processed as such.
2019-10-17T23:34:54Z Bike: yep.
2019-10-17T23:34:55Z jcowan: s/remain optional/be missing
2019-10-17T23:35:34Z aeth: jcowan: It does make sense from the perspective of &optional, which is to get to the later, you have to go through the earlier parts, even if it just means a bunch of ugly nils that were already the defaults
2019-10-17T23:35:47Z Bike: it would probably be even more complicated to try to interpret it another way, given the other parts of how keyword arguments (you can use non-keyword symbols, and pass keyword arguments not specified in the lambda list, plus you don't statically know the lambda list anyway)
2019-10-17T23:36:13Z jcowan: Okay, sorry for all the noise.
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2019-10-17T23:36:29Z Bike: no need to apologize
2019-10-17T23:36:31Z jcowan: I'm beginning to grasp why Racket and Kawa treat keywords as syntax rather than Lisp objects.
2019-10-17T23:37:04Z Bike: yeah i kind of like how lisp works well enough, but it does have some really confusing parts
2019-10-17T23:37:09Z aeth: jcowan: Right, because if you see :foo :bar :baz :quux you don't know if you have 0, 2, or 4 keyword arguments.
2019-10-17T23:37:09Z jcowan: (OTOH they don't have anything like &allow-other-keys)
2019-10-17T23:37:09Z Bike: it's also a huge pain in the ass to implement
2019-10-17T23:37:33Z jcowan: I think the moral is not to mix keywords, optional arguments, and rest arguments: pick one.
2019-10-17T23:37:41Z jcowan: I well believe it is.
2019-10-17T23:38:02Z Bike: i think &rest and &key together are ok.
2019-10-17T23:38:22Z jcowan: In Racket/Kawa you have to write :foo ':bar :baz ':quux in that situation
2019-10-17T23:38:23Z Bike: i mean, it kind of forces the rest argument to be a plist, though.
2019-10-17T23:38:33Z aeth: jcowan: &allow-other-keys is imo pretty much mandatory in higher order functions (at least ones that take in lambdas that use keywords) in Common Lisp because you can't pin a library to a version in Quicklisp, so if an API adds another keyword input, your version is now an error at whatever point it's funcalled.
2019-10-17T23:38:34Z jcowan: Yes.
2019-10-17T23:38:59Z jcowan: Yes, keywords and apply don't mix very well in general
2019-10-17T23:40:24Z clothespin: you can apply plists
2019-10-17T23:40:51Z clothespin: you can use &allow-other-keys
2019-10-17T23:41:02Z clothespin: and just bind the vars you want
2019-10-17T23:41:13Z clothespin: great for initialize-instance
2019-10-17T23:41:47Z aeth: There's some advantage to simple lambda list syntax, e.g. you can destructuring bind a plist tail with (... &key ... &allow-other-keys) to parse it... That's convenience you don't get for alists.
2019-10-17T23:41:49Z jcowan: If I'm going to do that, though, everyone has to use &allow-other-keys
2019-10-17T23:41:56Z jcowan: Quite.
2019-10-17T23:42:07Z jcowan: Also, quasiquoted alists look awful.
2019-10-17T23:42:40Z clothespin: all initialize-instance methods use &allow-other-keys
2019-10-17T23:42:53Z jcowan: whereas even if keywords were not self-evaluating, (foo 'a 32 'b 45) is perfectly readable and no more verbose than :a :b
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2019-10-17T23:43:12Z jcowan: aaaaak, it's late
2019-10-17T23:43:15Z jcowan: Thanks all
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2019-10-18T03:40:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-18T08:05:37Z decent-username: QUESTION: The following picture shows my current situation https://i.postimg.cc/Nf5QBFJ0/printing-2d-array.png
2019-10-18T08:05:51Z decent-username: How could I align the columns ?
2019-10-18T08:06:22Z decent-username: A link to a blog post would be enough.
2019-10-18T08:06:57Z shka__: second
2019-10-18T08:07:33Z shka__: decent-username: like that https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-frames/blob/b8f1b32103d3cbcddeb0db3c13ce44156442ec28/src/api/functions.lisp#L32
2019-10-18T08:12:41Z decent-username: That's a long function.
2019-10-18T08:13:26Z shka__: a little bit
2019-10-18T08:13:44Z shka__: it should be easy to understand though
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2019-10-18T08:14:31Z decent-username: (check-type table cl-df.table:fundamental-table) gives me an error
2019-10-18T08:14:31Z shka__: first write to strings, gather number of characters in each column, print to output
2019-10-18T08:14:58Z shka__: because it is a library and you are not loading it
2019-10-18T08:15:11Z decent-username: the library is not in ql as it seems
2019-10-18T08:15:17Z decent-username: cl-df that is
2019-10-18T08:15:18Z shka__: no, not yet
2019-10-18T08:15:37Z shka__: but don't bother with that, just take a look how it works
2019-10-18T08:16:05Z decent-username: thanks, I'll enjoy taking this thing apart.
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2019-10-18T08:25:05Z shka__: sure
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2019-10-18T08:32:27Z Cymew: For extra points, try to do it all in FORMAT.
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2019-10-18T08:32:42Z Shinmera: You can't.
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2019-10-18T08:33:24Z Cymew: I sure can't, but I've seen totally unreal things done in FORMAT.
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2019-10-18T08:34:09Z Shinmera: Format has no way of tabular arrangement because you need to know the cell sizes ahead of time.
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2019-10-18T08:34:38Z Shinmera: Once you do know the size of each column then, sure, you could use format.
2019-10-18T08:35:16Z phadthai: FORMAT used to display columns of nicknames when entring an irc channel (indeed, size is calculated first): http://git.pulsar-zone.net/?p=mmondor.git;a=blob;f=mmsoftware/cl/test/irclog.lisp;hb=HEAD#l745:
2019-10-18T08:36:45Z phadthai: hmm there's an extra trailing : at the end
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2019-10-18T08:58:38Z shka__: Shinmera: exactly
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2019-10-18T11:44:51Z Josh_2: Afternoon :D
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2019-10-18T12:40:19Z alandipert: anyone know how to interpret this type specifier? https://github.com/s-expressionists/Eclector/blob/master/code/reader/quasiquote-macro.lisp#L35
2019-10-18T12:41:42Z jackdaniel: alandipert: cons where car is of anytype and cdr is either an atom or a cons which car is unquote
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2019-10-18T12:42:58Z jackdaniel: i.e (42 . 52) ((1 2 3) . foobar) and ("bam" . (unquote foo)), but not (42 15) aka (42 . (15 . nil))
2019-10-18T12:44:06Z alandipert: jackdaniel thanks, i get it now
2019-10-18T12:44:12Z jackdaniel: sure
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2019-10-18T12:46:57Z alandipert: jackdaniel actually does (not cons) really mean atom? wondering if could mea array too
2019-10-18T12:47:47Z jackdaniel: array is also an atom
2019-10-18T12:47:59Z jackdaniel: (atom "foo") ; -> T
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2019-10-18T12:51:12Z alandipert: oh wow, that explodes my brain
2019-10-18T12:51:20Z Xach: chanl added an unconditional (warn ...) at compile-time and now it has busted a bunch of dependencies (and itself)
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2019-10-18T12:52:04Z jdz: Oof
2019-10-18T12:52:52Z Josh_2: that's a big oof
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2019-10-18T13:06:28Z bumblingMonkey: Has anybody here used clx and the render extension to draw semi-transparent triangles?  All I get are solids.
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2019-10-18T13:09:45Z beach: bumblingMonkey: Check in #clim.  More people there have used the render extension in CLX.
2019-10-18T13:11:13Z jackdaniel: bumblingMonkey: this code branch is currently disabled for unrelated reason, but please take a look at https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/blob/master/Backends/CLX/medium-xrender.lisp#L71
2019-10-18T13:11:52Z jackdaniel: (notice how the alpha channel is treated and the call to render-fill-rectangle)
2019-10-18T13:13:46Z bumblingMonkey: I check that, but there's nothing about triangles.  Filled rects work fine alpha.
2019-10-18T13:13:59Z bumblingMonkey: with alpha
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2019-10-18T13:14:42Z jackdaniel: you need to use fill-trapezoid or whatever it is called, it works very similar
2019-10-18T13:15:07Z jackdaniel: xlib:render-triangle-fan
2019-10-18T13:15:21Z jackdaniel: you need to compose it "over"
2019-10-18T13:16:27Z bumblingMonkey: tried triangle-strip with all ops, no go.  I could try fan, but not sure if it would be different.  Do you have any working code?
2019-10-18T13:17:19Z jackdaniel: I've linked you a working code, but it is for rectangles
2019-10-18T13:17:48Z jackdaniel: I don't have anything else
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2019-10-18T13:18:54Z bumblingMonkey: which works differently since fill-rectangles takes a color array, while the triangle functions take pictures, which I think might be part of the problem.  I can't even located C code using triangles.
2019-10-18T13:19:13Z jackdaniel: C code?
2019-10-18T13:20:09Z bumblingMonkey: well, any code written in any language, using the triangle rendering functions. So I can't even tell if it is supposed to work.
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2019-10-18T14:04:41Z jackdaniel: I suppose you can call fill-rectangle on a picture and pass that picture as a design for the triangle-fan
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2019-10-18T16:05:36Z decent-username: I've asked a question a few hours ago. Unfortunatley I didn't have proper internet until now. Did anyone answer it?
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2019-10-18T16:07:15Z Shinmera: there's logs in the topic.
2019-10-18T16:07:33Z beach: decent-username: I don't think we saw your question.
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2019-10-18T16:10:46Z decent-username: alright then I'll send you a paste of the relevant text.
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2019-10-18T16:13:44Z decent-username: I have another question: How could I override the name of a classes :initarg and :accessor for a slot that was inherited?
2019-10-18T16:13:45Z decent-username:  
2019-10-18T16:13:45Z decent-username:  This is my current code: https://pastebin.com/tpBXs0QZ
2019-10-18T16:13:45Z decent-username:  
2019-10-18T16:13:48Z decent-username:  Inside #'make-sprite-sheet-sprite I'd like to initialize the `resource-keyword' slot from the `sprite' class.
2019-10-18T16:13:51Z decent-username:  Is something like that possible?
2019-10-18T16:13:54Z decent-username:  I actually don't want a new `sprite-sheet' slot for `sprite-sheet-sprite', just different names for the accessor and initarg of `resource-keyword'
2019-10-18T16:13:57Z decent-username: O . o pastebin didn't let me pass
2019-10-18T16:14:40Z Xach: decent-username: you do have to recap the slot name and add an :accessor and :initarg argument.
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2019-10-18T16:15:04Z decent-username: Alright. How do I "recap" a slot name?
2019-10-18T16:15:30Z Xach: by "recap" i mean you have to write a slot definition with the same name.
2019-10-18T16:15:42Z Xach: any options will extend the options of the original slot.
2019-10-18T16:15:43Z decent-username: oh, that's easy
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2019-10-18T16:16:12Z decent-username: LOL. I was hacking around with (defmethod initialize-instance :after ...)
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2019-10-18T16:18:19Z Xach: no need
2019-10-18T16:19:06Z decent-username: I'll plan on writing lisp throughout this semester, so I don't get rusty. And because I'm a lazy bum, Im staying from 8AM to 8PM at the university.
2019-10-18T16:19:31Z decent-username: I've almost finished my first week. :^D
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2019-10-18T16:21:04Z Bike: the superclass accessor will still work on instances of the subclass, just so you know
2019-10-18T16:22:28Z decent-username: Bike: I would've expected as much.
2019-10-18T16:23:17Z decent-username: I want a need initarg and accessor to make the code more readable.
2019-10-18T16:23:26Z Bike: you said "different names" instead of just a new name, so i figured i'd be expliict about it
2019-10-18T16:23:31Z decent-username: I wanted to make*
2019-10-18T16:24:14Z decent-username: Maybe I've had too little sleep. My brain is spewing out random sentences with bad syntax.
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2019-10-18T16:24:53Z decent-username: Bike: That's why I like the Lisp community. People are very accurate with their word choice. (in contrast to me)
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2019-10-18T16:25:51Z Xach: maybe it's from years of parsing the hyperspec
2019-10-18T16:26:45Z decent-username: probably. I still don't really know how to use the words "condition" and "error" properly.
2019-10-18T16:27:36Z decent-username: I usually just say: "It raises an Error" or "It throws an Error."
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2019-10-18T16:27:49Z Bike: "it signals an error"
2019-10-18T16:27:56Z Bike: we'll probably understand it with the other two, though
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2019-10-18T16:31:16Z beach: decent-username: "throw" in this context is not good, because there is a function THROW that does something completely different.
2019-10-18T16:32:32Z beach: There is still some sloppiness in the vocabulary used here.  There is no such thing as "a lambda" for instance.  There is "a lambda expression" and there is an "anonymous function" (the result of evaluating the lambda expression).
2019-10-18T16:33:20Z beach: And many people say "a CLOS class" but that term is meaningless since all classes are part of CLOS.  What they often mean is "a standard class".
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2019-10-18T19:25:39Z flip214: beach: don't you think there could be classes outside of CLOS? not in ANSI CL, granted, but if someone implements them using CONS cells only (or structures, or arrays, etc.)
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2019-10-18T19:40:38Z aeth: flip214: I think what beach is saying is that people say "a CLOS class" when they mean "a class defined by defclass", which is more accurately "a standard class". And that distinction is needed because there can be condition classes (or are they just conditions?) with define-condition and structure classes with defstruct.
2019-10-18T19:41:04Z Bike: "condition types"
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2019-10-18T19:41:41Z aeth: flip214: And imo there are some classes that you yourself can write that aren't part of CLOS if you (ab)use macros enough, but that's kind of besides the point. They're not CL classes, you're basically embedding a new language.
2019-10-18T19:42:02Z aeth: (And beach would probably say that if you're avoiding CLOS there in the implementation, you're probably making things too hard.)
2019-10-18T19:42:26Z Bike: i think technically you could have find-class not work on condition types
2019-10-18T19:42:46Z aeth: (Although depending on what you mean by "a part of CLOS", then everything in the language is a part of CLOS, so that's another possible reply.)
2019-10-18T19:43:13Z LdBeth: there’re other Object systems implemented with CL, I guess that’s flip214 means
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2019-10-18T19:44:01Z LdBeth: And some of them are pre ANSI CL and CLOS
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2019-10-18T20:05:42Z clothespin: what would you do with a 64 core chip?
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2019-10-18T20:08:45Z LdBeth: Install gentoo
2019-10-18T20:09:32Z dlowe: two chromes at the same time
2019-10-18T20:09:33Z clothespin: why
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2019-10-18T20:16:28Z pjb: aeth: defclass can also define non-standard-classes, when :metaclass is not standard-class.
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2019-10-18T20:22:04Z aeth: terminology is hard
2019-10-18T20:22:06Z Shinmera: There's system classes, but those are also classes as part of CLOS.
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2019-10-18T20:36:34Z aeth: This makes me think of the tangential question: Is there any class system that can't be expressed by CLOS? I don't think so...
2019-10-18T20:36:58Z clothespin: maybe frames
2019-10-18T20:37:35Z pjb: frame was the inspiration for clos!
2019-10-18T20:37:40Z clothespin: clos is thoroughly class/instance in nature
2019-10-18T20:37:48Z pjb: aeth: you're confusing CLOS and the MOP.
2019-10-18T20:38:08Z Shinmera: Anyway, beach's point is that every class is a class as part of CLOS, and as such saying "CLOS class" is redundant and ambiguous.
2019-10-18T20:38:13Z pjb: With the MOP and some macros, you can do everything.
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2019-10-18T20:39:55Z aeth: pjb: I am being intentionally general to allow for more room, but there still might be a counterexample. I mean, turing complete, yes, but sometimes you literally have to write an interpreter to run that equivalent program.
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2019-10-18T20:44:30Z aeth: If you allow for macros, I think you can emulate static object systems (C++/Java/etc.) just by doing things at macro expansion time instead of run time. I think that would just require boxing everything and using type declarations with https://github.com/Bike/introspect-environment and would be very Java-ish, but being Java-ish there would be the point.
2019-10-18T20:45:01Z pjb: aeth: let's use macros only for syntactic abstraction.
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2019-10-18T20:47:45Z aeth: pjb: Then to do C++/Java, you'd just have to fake the above at runtime, doing two passes, I guess?
2019-10-18T20:50:52Z aeth: Is there an object system that's too dynamic, though?
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2019-10-18T21:47:43Z LdBeth: aeth: Smalltalk's
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2019-10-18T23:13:17Z asarch: Are there any public logs of this channel?
2019-10-18T23:13:39Z asarch: I lost my HDD with all my logs :'-(
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2019-10-18T23:16:17Z no-defun-allowed: asarch: There's three in the topic.
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2019-10-18T23:16:36Z asarch: THANK YOU!!!
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2019-10-19T00:05:25Z DrDuck: how close is this to lisp capabilities? https://github.com/julvo/reloading
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2019-10-19T00:11:42Z White_Flame: you can write something like that in lisp as well, probably easier
2019-10-19T00:12:08Z White_Flame: built-in lisp capabilities for hot edits are at the full expression level, not the subexpression (like an inner loop body) level
2019-10-19T00:12:39Z White_Flame: so if teh loop called a function, you could hot-redefine the function every iteration if you wanted, without anything special
2019-10-19T00:13:01Z no-defun-allowed: Trivial. Lots of things are redefinable by default in Lisp, and SLIME makes it easier than walking.
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2019-10-19T00:14:14Z DrDuck: so common lisp can't do what that library for python does by default?
2019-10-19T00:14:19Z White_Flame: see also let-over-lambda for retaining state in a closure while execution does other stuff
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2019-10-19T00:14:44Z White_Flame: DrDuck: why would any langauge reload source from files constantly?  that's slow.  No designer woudl add that by default, especially in an industrial language like CL
2019-10-19T00:15:10Z White_Flame: obviously that python lib is for live demonstration purposes
2019-10-19T00:15:23Z DrDuck: o_o
2019-10-19T00:15:43Z no-defun-allowed: Not like that, you have to give Lisp the redefining form yourself.
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2019-10-19T00:17:20Z aeth: DrDuck: if you want to see live coding taken to an extreme in Common Lisp, check out CEPL. https://github.com/cbaggers/cepl
2019-10-19T00:17:25Z aeth: DrDuck: or in video form: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2VAYZE_4wRITJBv6saaKouj4sWSG1FcS
2019-10-19T00:17:44Z White_Flame: one wonders what would happen if you save with a syntax error with that python tool
2019-10-19T00:20:01Z aeth: DrDuck: lots of C-c C-c to recompile top level forms in those presentations
2019-10-19T00:20:18Z aeth: Except that library does the work to reload things on the GPU as well.
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2019-10-19T00:24:16Z aeth: You sometimes have to do extra work to prevent the program from continuing to execute stale code, especially if you do something fancy like write shaders for OpenGL with your library.
2019-10-19T00:25:19Z aeth: The default, though, is basically that if you recompile a file while the image is running with SLIME (or something similar) then the updated definitions will be used. Recompiling a top-level form will mostly work, but sometimes compiler optimizations get in the way of that because compilers are allowed to optimize a file heavily and SBCL sometimes does
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2019-10-19T02:52:58Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=ebc7a0f4 will be valid until 03:00 UTC.
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2019-10-19T04:32:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-19T04:35:50Z aeth: good morning beach
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2019-10-19T09:45:24Z decent-username: I'm right now writing a function with a #'macrolet inside. The question is: How can I access the arguments of the function that envelops the #'macrolet?
2019-10-19T09:46:17Z beach: Why do you write #' in front of "macrolet"?
2019-10-19T09:47:14Z decent-username: I dunno
2019-10-19T09:47:18Z beach: If you mean the parameters of the function around the MACROLET, then you just write their names.
2019-10-19T09:47:39Z decent-username: I just write #' infront of everything that's a function or a macro
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2019-10-19T09:47:44Z beach: But you can not do that at macro-expansion time, because the corresponding arguments are not available then.
2019-10-19T09:47:46Z decent-username: it's probably wrong for macros
2019-10-19T09:47:51Z beach: It is.
2019-10-19T09:48:30Z decent-username: I'll show you the code and you'll understand what I'm trying to do.
2019-10-19T09:49:03Z beach: I need to go fix lunch for my (admittedly small) family.  You either need to wait or see if someone else can answer.
2019-10-19T09:50:42Z decent-username: no worries
2019-10-19T09:51:58Z decent-username: I'll try to solve the problem on my own. I'll let you know if I've managed to fix it.
2019-10-19T09:52:07Z decent-username: Here's the code: https://paste.gnome.org/puvqnmc4y
2019-10-19T09:52:15Z decent-username: take your time
2019-10-19T09:53:05Z decent-username: the code is still rather messy and doesn't compile properly
2019-10-19T09:56:17Z MichaelRaskin: You don't need to unescape global-cell-x (the macro should expand to literally this symbol), and you do need to put comma before x (it is a macro argument that should be substituted in macro expansion
2019-10-19T09:57:05Z decent-username: I've just realized my code doesn't really make a lot of sense
2019-10-19T10:01:46Z lieven: minor nit - in loop you can replace "to (1- bound)" with "below bound"
2019-10-19T10:03:19Z lieven: and make-array has an initial-contents initarg to replace setting them by hand
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2019-10-19T10:06:42Z decent-username: lieven: Thanks.
2019-10-19T10:08:44Z decent-username: my code compiles now. But the logic is still more broken than a 80year old who fell down a skyscraper.
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2019-10-19T10:44:47Z beach: decent-username: It is conventional to put the loop keywords at the beginning of a line, not at the end.
2019-10-19T10:44:49Z decent-username: https://paste.gnome.org/pxcjyexvs
2019-10-19T10:44:56Z decent-username: beach: here's the new code btw.
2019-10-19T10:45:38Z decent-username: the commented block is the portion that gives me trouble: I get the following error message: "The value -1 is not of type SB-INT:INDEX"
2019-10-19T10:45:41Z beach: (when (not ...)...) is better expressed as (unless ... ...)
2019-10-19T10:47:28Z beach: decent-username: Then you look at your backtrace, type a `v' in the frames, and look at what form is causing problems.
2019-10-19T10:48:56Z beach: It must be the case that global-cell-x or global-cell-y is 0, so that adding -1 to it gives -1 which you then use to pass to AREF.
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2019-10-19T10:49:25Z decent-username: beach: Slime highlight the entirety of #'find-wall-features
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2019-10-19T10:49:32Z decent-username: the whole form
2019-10-19T10:50:03Z beach: What value of DEBUG did you compile your code with?
2019-10-19T10:50:27Z decent-username: I'm not sure what DEBUG refers to.
2019-10-19T10:50:37Z decent-username: So I guess the default value?
2019-10-19T10:51:17Z beach: I always put (proclaim '(optimize (speed 0) (compilation-speed 0) (debug 3) (space 0))) in my .sbclrc
2019-10-19T10:51:32Z decent-username: What does that accomplish?
2019-10-19T10:51:52Z beach: clhs optimize
2019-10-19T10:51:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm
2019-10-19T10:52:13Z beach: It makes sure you have the best possible values for debugging.
2019-10-19T10:55:25Z decent-username: (proclaim '(optimize (debug 3))) seems to be useful
2019-10-19T10:55:47Z decent-username: Now I get information about the state of every variable. NICE!
2019-10-19T10:56:15Z decent-username: Yeah, looks like I try to access outside the array. Makes sense.
2019-10-19T10:56:40Z decent-username: *access memory
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2019-10-19T11:23:38Z decent-username: It works! Here's the code I've written to the best of my current ability: https://gitlab.com/decent-username/undead-dungeon/blob/master/third-party/dungen/src/corridor.lisp
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2019-10-19T11:25:08Z decent-username: I've modified mfianos Dungen library, because the created tiles don't contain enough information in order to decide which wall-sprite to use.
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2019-10-19T11:44:23Z ECLIPSE: hi,would someone please help me to understand this lisp code,or beautifier it so I can read it,https://justpaste.it/3mr1e
2019-10-19T11:46:11Z no-defun-allowed: I think I will go with "no", since it's probably some kind of deobsfucation attempt at...AutoLisp or something like that? Some CAD scripting language.
2019-10-19T11:46:41Z Duuqnd: ECLIPSE: I'm pretty sure that's not Lisp. At least not anymore.
2019-10-19T11:46:53Z decent-username: It isn't even syntactically correct
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2019-10-19T11:47:07Z ECLIPSE: its a lisp code for AutoCad malware
2019-10-19T11:47:14Z ECLIPSE: https://www.symantec.com/security-center/writeup/2003-120513-5257-99
2019-10-19T11:47:25Z Duuqnd: ECLIPSE: Not anymore. That's just text soup.
2019-10-19T11:47:55Z no-defun-allowed: CAD malware? That's new.
2019-10-19T11:48:31Z no-defun-allowed: I think we'd need the actual file rather than trying to poke out strings out of it.
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2019-10-19T11:49:01Z ECLIPSE: I am started studying lisp to understand ,,, and I was wondering about syntax ) ,,,,  so I think its an advanced way to write lisp
2019-10-19T11:49:02Z ECLIPSE: lol
2019-10-19T11:49:07Z no-defun-allowed: But, also "we" would have to be some other group, since this is a Common Lisp room and low-key AutoLisp is an unholy abomination.
2019-10-19T11:49:40Z no-defun-allowed: One of the things malware writers probably have in mind is to obsfucate their code, so I would not use it for learning unless you want to learn reverse engineering too.
2019-10-19T11:49:42Z decent-username: ECLIPSE: So advanced in fact, that it doesn't even qualify as a Lisp anymore.
2019-10-19T11:49:51Z decent-username: LOL
2019-10-19T11:51:12Z ECLIPSE: ok,   Thank you
2019-10-19T11:51:46Z no-defun-allowed: What a weird propagation vector though.
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2019-10-19T12:01:19Z ECLIPSE: there is an hidden character in the file '=D
2019-10-19T12:01:19Z ECLIPSE: https://justpaste.it/38nkq
2019-10-19T12:01:44Z ECLIPSE: I think its a lisp now O:3
2019-10-19T12:02:14Z ECLIPSE: but what is the first comment mean ?
2019-10-19T12:06:33Z Bike: is this supposed to be as unreadable as possible
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2019-10-19T12:09:39Z ECLIPSE: @Bike , its AutoCad malware ,,,,   it was obfuscated with spaces and /n /r ,,  after I removed them I got this code ,,,,,  but it still there is some points in code that I can not understand ,,,  like first comment and the last one
2019-10-19T12:10:27Z ECLIPSE: and strcat also ,,,  I can not understand data structure in lisp
2019-10-19T12:10:51Z Bike: this channel is for common lisp, not whatever autocad has
2019-10-19T12:11:21Z ECLIPSE: ;(  its a lisp code
2019-10-19T12:12:09Z Bike: this channel is about a specific language, and this is not it
2019-10-19T12:12:26Z Bike: if those comments actually mean something, it's very specific to autocad
2019-10-19T12:12:39Z edgar-rft: ECLIPSE: for AutoLisp better ask in ##lisp, nearly nobody here woks with it
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2019-10-19T12:13:31Z ECLIPSE: edgar-rft thanks
2019-10-19T12:16:21Z ECLIPSE: Cannot send to nick/channel  D: =$
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2019-10-19T12:25:09Z decent-username: I'm about 90% sure ECLIPSE is a bot. If it now starts to talk to me, then that's even more suspicous.
2019-10-19T12:25:56Z decent-username: :O
2019-10-19T12:26:15Z decent-username: or maybe it's just extreme autism
2019-10-19T12:29:04Z edgar-rft: what is somewhat equal to a normal AutoLisp user
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2019-10-19T12:36:15Z beach: decent-username: Like I said, the convention is to put LOOP keywords at the beginning of a line rather than at the end.
2019-10-19T12:38:44Z beach: decent-username: Also, page 13 of the LUV slides by Pitman and Norvig has some interesting points.  For instance, you should not use a non-Boolean variable in a position that "requires" a Boolean.  So when you write (WHEN CELLS ...) you are violating this expectation.
2019-10-19T12:40:47Z beach: decent-username: And when you write (LET (RESULTS) ...) the message is that RESULTS is "uninitialized" and the person reading your code expects the variable to be assigned to before it is used.  But you used it as if it were a list.  In that case, you should write (LET ((RESULTS '())) ...)
2019-10-19T12:41:30Z decent-username: Thanks for the tips.
2019-10-19T12:41:43Z beach: Sure.
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2019-10-19T12:47:14Z beach: decent-username: Here is another one: WHEN and UNLESS should be used only in a context where the value is not needed.  This expectation is violated when you write (LAMBDA (X) (WHEN (CARVED-P X) X))
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2019-10-19T12:49:28Z beach: decent-username: In a context where the value is needed, use an IF with both branches.  So, depending on the message you want to send to the person reading your code, either (LAMBDA (X) (IF (CARVED-P X) X NIL)) [if the value is a default value or a Boolean], (LAMBDA (X) (IF (CARVED-P X) X '())) [if the value is the empty list], or (LAMBDA (X) (IF (CARVED-P X) X 'NIL)) [if the value is the symbol NIL].
2019-10-19T12:51:41Z beach: decent-username: One more: Instead of writing (setf (cell-features (aref grid x y)) (cons ... (cell-features (aref grid x y)))) it is preferable to write (push ... (cell-features (aref grid  y))).  In addition, you then avoid multiple evaluations of (aref grid x y).
2019-10-19T12:52:37Z beach: But, especially, it is much more explicit, since it uses a construct that is the most specific that does the job.  That's a general rule in programming.  Use the most specific construct that will do the job.
2019-10-19T12:53:46Z beach: I also recommend replacing RECURSE with a LOOP.
2019-10-19T13:00:44Z beach: And if you decide to keep the recursive version, a recursive function should always be structured like a proof by induction, i.e. by handling the base case first.  So it should read (if (null cells) nil (let* ....))
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2019-10-19T13:05:18Z beach can now see that this energy was wasted.
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2019-10-19T13:25:43Z jeosol: beach: the energy was not wasted at all. There are others that read the code and learn from the style recommendation, how to write better code and design
2019-10-19T13:27:27Z jeosol: btw, I have a comment above: do you mean (when name ...) should only be used if name is some boolean, or like predicate
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2019-10-19T13:30:12Z beach: Yes, that is the recommendation by Norvig and Pitman.  And I agree with them.
2019-10-19T13:30:28Z beach: And thanks.
2019-10-19T13:31:02Z jeosol: nice, should reread that document again.
2019-10-19T13:31:48Z beach: This is also why we have two functions NULL and NOT that do the same thing.  NOT takes a Boolean argument, whereas NULL takes a list or a default value.
2019-10-19T13:32:12Z jeosol: btw, I am not disagreeing, just want to keep refactoring and writing better code
2019-10-19T13:32:20Z beach: I understand.
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2019-10-19T13:32:27Z jeosol: I see.
2019-10-19T13:33:03Z jeosol: You heard about Grahams Bel lisp. What are your thoughts briefly. This is probably discussed here before.
2019-10-19T13:34:12Z beach: I haven't looked at it.  I consider the introduction of new Lisp dialects unnecessary, and I don't understand the reason.
2019-10-19T13:34:45Z jeosol: I have the same feeling. Not sure why he is doing that,
2019-10-19T13:34:52Z beach: By the way, it doesn't matter much whether we agree or not.  Those two people are WAY more experienced than I am, especially when it comes to creating industrial-strength software written by a team of highly experienced professionals.
2019-10-19T13:35:03Z jeosol: There was Arc seemed not to have gone anywhere
2019-10-19T13:35:16Z beach: Right.  Paul Graham is different.
2019-10-19T13:36:00Z jeosol: I see, but could that effort not be put in improving the current one, especially if syntax or ideas is close to CL
2019-10-19T13:36:31Z beach: We seem to be having two parallel subjects.
2019-10-19T13:36:56Z jeosol: I did ask him a question on twitter a while back, when I started working on my application with CL using CLOS and someone mentioned I will have production issues. I asked him, he said he won't recommend CL at this (that) time but will recommend Clojure.
2019-10-19T13:37:42Z jeosol: I checked it out, but stayed with CL.
2019-10-19T13:37:45Z beach: I might recommend something other than Common Lisp as well, depending on the context.  I don't think there is a general-purpose recommendation.
2019-10-19T13:38:14Z jeosol: Well, I was coming from C/C++
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2019-10-19T13:39:14Z jeosol: which was not bad per see, but I was looking to write a large application, the image-based development probably got me to stick to CL in the initial phase.
2019-10-19T13:40:18Z beach: A language such as C++ is very hard to use for large applications.  At least if you want your application to be both modular and fast.  I often say that it is impossible to do that.
2019-10-19T13:41:08Z beach: The problem is the manual memory management.  If your application is truly modular, you can not predict what references to objects might be kept by a particular module.
2019-10-19T13:41:25Z beach: As Paul Wilson says "Liveness is a global property".
2019-10-19T13:41:27Z jeosol: Yes, that was the main issue I was having, layering the classes, organization packages, etc. It was getting difficult so decided to explore something else.
2019-10-19T13:41:43Z beach: Yeah.
2019-10-19T13:42:25Z beach: So then, to keep modularity, the C++ programmers either copy everything or they resort to reference counting.  Both of which are slow.
2019-10-19T13:42:32Z jeosol: I saw a CL code for a C/C++ code I wrote. Very concise and the easier to read and was doing more in a few pages that my massive C/C++ code base. The lisp code was for a genetic algorithm some guy wrote for his dissertation.
2019-10-19T13:42:35Z beach: And it doesn't even work all the time.
2019-10-19T13:42:51Z beach: I see.
2019-10-19T13:42:56Z jeosol: That's what got me to start exploring the language.
2019-10-19T13:43:31Z jeosol: Is there a technical name when a language is few syntax constructs to memorize? Saw something a while ago, but I can't recall
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2019-10-19T13:44:09Z beach: jeosol: Not sure.
2019-10-19T13:44:09Z jeosol: I think this is what helps with my coding in CL. I often also have to work in python, pandas, numpy, and the argument keywords, changes here and there. It's hard to keep track and things aren't uniform
2019-10-19T13:44:37Z jeosol: with CL, I just focus on the application, know how things are structured, not a lot of mental burden.
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2019-10-19T14:01:52Z beach: I believe you.
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2019-10-19T14:12:42Z Josh_2: wait
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2019-10-19T14:19:14Z Josh_2: beach: you wrote all that I am not completely lost xD Is this little snippet of code https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1518#1518 wrong? I don't understand
2019-10-19T14:19:17Z Josh_2: also what is the LUV?
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2019-10-19T14:37:39Z beach: www.norvig.com/luv-slides.pdf
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2019-10-19T14:40:27Z beach: Josh_2: I don't see any problems relating to the issues I just talked about.
2019-10-19T14:40:55Z beach: But I personally don't assign to parameters.  I prefer introducing new ones with LET.
2019-10-19T14:41:40Z beach: Oh, and I think (listp ignore-positions) is always true.
2019-10-19T14:43:31Z beach: And, I would put the (IF FROM-START inside the INTERN.
2019-10-19T14:44:03Z beach: To avoid repetition of FORMAT, the string, and "KEYWORD".
2019-10-19T14:44:59Z beach: And that double REVERSE looks fishy too.
2019-10-19T14:45:37Z beach: It looks like it ought to be using BUTLAST instead of SUBSEQ.
2019-10-19T14:46:08Z beach: Josh_2: ^ all that for you.
2019-10-19T14:50:18Z mfiano: I am the author of most of the code that those suggestions were based upon. I never intended the code to be used by others, and my style choices are a little outside the norm to fit my own mental model. Also some of them were for performance considerations. That is why I use Lisp to begin with :)
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2019-10-19T14:50:58Z beach: mfiano: Oh, sorry.  I just assumed Josh_2 exposed it in order to get feedback.
2019-10-19T14:51:37Z beach: mfiano: What performance considerations did you have in mind?  Are they specific to a particular Common Lisp implementation?
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2019-10-19T14:53:35Z mfiano: Way back when, it was tested on SBCL and CCL. Mostly algorithm and data structure optimizations - I don't think I went as far as to add compiler-specific type annotation optimizations.
2019-10-19T14:54:19Z beach: I see.  Well I apologize again.  And again, my energy was wasted.  Oh, well.
2019-10-19T14:54:34Z mfiano: It was not. No need to apologize.
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2019-10-19T14:55:00Z mfiano: It's just that I never inteded anyone to use that. I assumed it would stay on my GitHub for me alone, like everything else I write :)
2019-10-19T14:55:26Z mfiano: The flexibility of the language, both style and not, is why I use Lisp. Otherwise I'd probably have stuck with Python 15 years ago :)
2019-10-19T14:56:17Z mfiano: The Python philosphy is the language that comes to mind with "only one way to do something"
2019-10-19T14:56:46Z beach: I see.
2019-10-19T15:01:25Z mfiano: I believe the reason Lisp is so powerful is because of this flexibility. I also believe it's why everyone reinvents the wheel. For most things, it's usually easier to rewrite it yourself to match your own thought processes and use cases, since the original was probably a one-man effort for their specific use-case. After all, code is just a projection of one's own mind.
2019-10-19T15:06:33Z beach: I read somewhere that understanding code written by others is roughly as hard as writing your own.  And that was supposedly not related specifically to Common Lisp.
2019-10-19T15:06:55Z beach: Therefore, I personally think that good documentation is essential.
2019-10-19T15:07:22Z beach: And I don't mean documentation strings extracted to HTML or something similar.
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2019-10-19T15:09:17Z mfiano: I agree with that. Writing code to be consumed by others is harder than both in my opinion though, even if it has documentation. It's much easier to write code for a particular use-case. Once you start adding users to the mix, edge cases and bugs are found, several refactors and years later, you have a robust piece of software, or a piece of software outside of the original vision.
2019-10-19T15:09:41Z mfiano: DOn't have any bugs? (incf *users*) :)
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2019-10-19T15:11:00Z beach: Indeed.  It is harder, but also more rewarding when you find an abstraction that feels right and that can be expressed in the documentation in a useful way.
2019-10-19T15:18:03Z vsync: nicely put
2019-10-19T15:18:52Z vsync: beach: interesting, those recommendations, since I deliberately do the opposite for many of them... I may try to reread that chapter to see what the reasoning is.  what were the slides you mentioned?
2019-10-19T15:19:39Z beach: www.norvig.com/luv-slides.pdf
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2019-10-19T15:21:02Z beach: It is all about saving time for unknown people trying to understand your code.  So if you don't think you will have unknown people trying to understand your code, of if you don't care about wasting their time, you can write whatever you please.
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2019-10-19T15:25:52Z vsync: yeah, I find that interesting... for example I find (let (foo) bar baz (when foo qux)) more accessible even in foreign code.
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2019-10-19T15:26:58Z vsync: but I value the falseness of empty lists as a feature, not a bug or a dirty programming trick.  that's not because it's intrinsically valuable but because it's a part of CL heritage and a key part of CL definition.
2019-10-19T15:26:59Z beach: So you mean you prefer having absolutely no idea whether foo is going to be assigned to, whether it is an empty list, whether it is a symbol, or whether it is the Boolean false after you see (let (foo) ?
2019-10-19T15:27:08Z beach: I MUCH prefer knowing so that I don't have to guess.
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2019-10-19T15:27:35Z beach: You are confusing semantics and communication.
2019-10-19T15:27:37Z vsync: and, it is obvious to all that a language which allows for shorter programs is strictly superior to one which requires longer.
2019-10-19T15:28:41Z vsync: ;-P  --^    I had a page on Everything2 back in the day asserting that car and cdr were superior to first and rests... but the deletionists got to it, in the days before wikipedia
2019-10-19T15:29:38Z vsync: the empty list is Boolean false
2019-10-19T15:30:17Z vsync: as for knowing in advance, CL may be the wrong language to demand that in, but you are welcome to use type-declarations; they are the right tool for the job and I often use them myself
2019-10-19T15:30:45Z beach: So, some great people came up with this convention, and it wasn't me.  And many people use it.  So when many people use it, it saves time to know that when you see (let (foo), then foo is "uninitialized" and you expect it to be assigned to before being used.  If you now don't respect that convention, you will have all those experienced people confused when they read your code.
2019-10-19T15:31:02Z beach: Because, they expect it to be assigned to and it isn't.
2019-10-19T15:31:09Z mfiano: The empty list should not be used as boolean false
2019-10-19T15:31:32Z mfiano: See 1.4.1.4.4
2019-10-19T15:31:36Z beach: vsync: So then when they see the variable used, they have to go back and check how it was initialized.
2019-10-19T15:31:37Z vsync: you are confusing your personal thought process with objective truth
2019-10-19T15:31:55Z beach: vsync: Not at all.  I am talking about Norvig and Pitman.  Not me.
2019-10-19T15:32:36Z beach: As in two highly experienced developers and software engineers who have worked on industrial projects in teams with many people.
2019-10-19T15:32:43Z vsync: beach: but some great people also came up with the language, and they did it first, and then people write programs in the language
2019-10-19T15:33:29Z vsync: btw in that example I selected 2 of the examples together because I would find the whole correct.  but it makes complete sense to have something initialized then to check later whether it has been set to anything, or anything has been added to the set that it is
2019-10-19T15:34:32Z vsync: I'm interested in seeing their arguments and will read that chapter
2019-10-19T15:34:40Z beach: vsync: Like I said before, you do what you like.
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2019-10-19T15:35:44Z vsync: mfiano: you are conflating notation with semantics; and in the example (let (foo)) one sees neither NIL nor ()
2019-10-19T15:36:39Z beach: It is interesting to see people who do NOT believe in making life easier for people reading their code.
2019-10-19T15:36:55Z vsync: that is an interesting leap of logic in your ad hominem
2019-10-19T15:37:07Z vsync: beach: you seem to be arguing "these guys used conventions somewhere; therefore everyone should use those conventions everywhere"
2019-10-19T15:37:29Z beach: Absolutely.
2019-10-19T15:37:35Z beach: That's what "conventions" mean.
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2019-10-19T15:37:54Z vsync: I use the convention that variables starting with i are integers
2019-10-19T15:37:58Z beach: Especially when established by highly qualified, highly experienced programmers and software engineers.
2019-10-19T15:38:17Z vsync: Norvig is a traitor though so his moral authority is quite suspect
2019-10-19T15:38:29Z beach: vsync: "Conventions" are by definition shared.  It is not a "convention" if only you respect it.
2019-10-19T15:38:37Z vsync: beach: exactly
2019-10-19T15:38:58Z vsync: you find this convention persuasive because it matches the way you think.  but I don't, because it doesn't match mine.
2019-10-19T15:39:03Z DrDuck: vsync: how is norvig a traitor? haha xD
2019-10-19T15:39:21Z beach: vsync: Thanks for letting us know.
2019-10-19T15:39:24Z vsync: and you come perilously close to something like describing it as "intuitive"
2019-10-19T15:39:36Z vsync: DrDuck: he's all about Python now
2019-10-19T15:39:40Z DrDuck: :P
2019-10-19T15:39:48Z vsync: and finds it superior, and advocates its use above CL
2019-10-19T15:39:56Z DrDuck: i wonder why
2019-10-19T15:40:05Z vsync: he talks about it somewhere
2019-10-19T15:40:10Z vsync: but here is the irony
2019-10-19T15:40:40Z vsync: first, if one wants to write approachable CL code, one should throw away CL and write the code in Python.  because Norvig established the convention that Python is easier to understand.
2019-10-19T15:42:15Z vsync: rest, the degeneracy of this argument is exposed because Norvig claims Python is closer to his pseudocode... and yet he should therefore use ALGOL which is the official language for pseudocode
2019-10-19T15:42:49Z vsync: ...as would be the convention
2019-10-19T15:43:08Z DrDuck: ^^
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2019-10-19T15:45:52Z vsync: incidentally I was having a casual conversation with my friend who became enraged upon finding out that one would denote keywords by bolding them, and that one could write in a variant which used local language for keywords... I find it a beautiful idea that would be difficult to gain purchase and suspect it never did
2019-10-19T15:46:03Z mfiano: There's also a difference between confentions that lend to better readability, and conventions that lent to better readability.
2019-10-19T15:46:15Z Kabriel: that's not quite right; I think he was trying to appease his students
2019-10-19T15:46:19Z Kabriel: he talks about it here: http://www.norvig.com/python-lisp.html
2019-10-19T15:48:08Z vsync: mfiano: can you expound your pun please?
2019-10-19T15:48:16Z vsync: Kabriel: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1803815
2019-10-19T15:48:49Z mfiano: One example would be the 80 column limit from a time when we didn't have modern displays or operating systems.
2019-10-19T15:49:58Z vsync: indeed, but in our modern age we no longer have modern displays but instead short-screens; it becomes useful to have short lines in windows one can arrange horizontally
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2019-10-19T15:53:52Z mfiano: Or on the Python note, 79 columns ;)
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2019-10-19T15:59:47Z mfiano: It'd be rare to find a document on the web with such a limitation, or even trying to contain a typical URI in a code comment, especially if not at the top-level. Eh, I tile windows horizontally on two of my displays (the 3rd is vertical for long macro-expansions etc), and I don't have a problem even with a 100 column limit and 4 horizontal windows on either of them.
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2019-10-19T16:10:04Z Kabriel: vsync: yeah, doesn't seem all that different than the link I sent. He likes it for communicating his topics, but it was driven by students having issues with CL.
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2019-10-19T17:07:58Z Josh_2: beach: that was my code that I posted
2019-10-19T17:15:37Z Josh_2: beach: thanks for the suggestions, i changed the intern but as for the defaulting to true, that is only the case with the default values, the function is by another function which provides those values, so It's fine for it to always be true
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2019-10-19T17:20:44Z Josh_2: beach: what about this? https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1519#1519 I introduced a new variable and removed the double format
2019-10-19T17:23:03Z Josh_2: as for the double reverse, well to be honest I can't remember what It's doing oof
2019-10-19T17:23:16Z Josh_2: It's been a while since I've had proper time to finish this library :(
2019-10-19T17:24:51Z Josh_2: here is a tripply improved version https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1520#1520
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2019-10-19T17:31:53Z mfiano: That could be improved quite a bit more
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2019-10-19T17:37:05Z Josh_2: How's about https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1521#1521
2019-10-19T17:37:19Z Josh_2: darn no
2019-10-19T17:37:20Z Josh_2: lol
2019-10-19T17:37:37Z mfiano: It suffers from repeating the same expensive operation more than once, and on multiple ocassions. Before that though, I would focus on proper indentation before asking others to read code
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2019-10-19T17:38:01Z Josh_2: That's not my fault
2019-10-19T17:38:04Z Josh_2: It's plaster
2019-10-19T17:38:13Z Josh_2: It's indented just fine in my emacs
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2019-10-19T17:38:43Z Josh_2: here is attempt 3000000 https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1522#1522
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2019-10-19T17:39:07Z Josh_2: also so what if it is doing reverse a bunch of times, when I have a library I'm happy with I can optimize
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2019-10-19T17:40:11Z Josh_2: https://imgur.com/pZLM7FO.png here it is on emacs
2019-10-19T17:42:53Z mfiano: It's not just reverse. It's also length which is done twice in one branch when it never changes, and is expensive on lists, and subseq conses up a new list twice, likewise for reverse, and more
2019-10-19T17:44:31Z mfiano: Well only one list consed for subseq, but in combination with reverse is painful to look at for me
2019-10-19T17:44:38Z Shinmera: Josh_2: The indentation //is// your fault because you're mixing tabs and spaces.
2019-10-19T17:44:59Z Josh_2: I mostly use tabs
2019-10-19T17:45:00Z Josh_2: mostly
2019-10-19T17:45:09Z Shinmera: Well you shouldn't for this exact reason.
2019-10-19T17:45:14Z Josh_2: no
2019-10-19T17:45:23Z Josh_2: ima use tabs It's easier
2019-10-19T17:45:34Z Josh_2: perhaps I can tell emacs to insert 4 spaces instead
2019-10-19T17:48:30Z Josh_2: okay, I removed repeat calls to length :P but as for the subseq/reverse stuff, I cant' remember what I'm doing so Ima just leave it
2019-10-19T17:49:13Z Josh_2: also I'm working with lists that are pretty darn short, so all this consing etc isn't expensive
2019-10-19T17:53:24Z beach: Josh_2: (LISTP '()) => true.
2019-10-19T17:53:48Z beach: So unless it can be an atom that is not NIL, then you can remove the test.
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2019-10-19T17:54:58Z Josh_2: beach: it is only true for the default arguments
2019-10-19T17:55:18Z beach: I don't understand.
2019-10-19T17:55:19Z Josh_2: but the calling function provides arguments
2019-10-19T17:55:38Z beach: Yes, and can that function pass, say, a symbol or a number?
2019-10-19T17:55:50Z beach: Or does it always pass a list, or nothing?
2019-10-19T17:56:09Z Josh_2: it will pretty much always pass '(0)
2019-10-19T17:56:44Z beach: So since LISTP is true for the empty list and the non-empty list, then it is always true, unless the caller passes say 'hello or 234.
2019-10-19T17:56:49Z Josh_2: You can pass a symbol, it won't do anything
2019-10-19T17:57:46Z Josh_2: well the user could pass "ree" if they wanted
2019-10-19T17:58:04Z Josh_2: and if I don't do the check then a few functions will be passed with that arg and everything will die
2019-10-19T17:58:05Z beach: And it is desirable to not signal an error in that case?
2019-10-19T17:58:09Z beach: That would be a bit strange.
2019-10-19T17:58:31Z Josh_2: why would I need to signal an error when I can just ignore it/
2019-10-19T17:59:43Z beach: You need to read Bertrand Mayer.  It is always desirable to signal an error when there is an anomaly.  you should never hide it.
2019-10-19T17:59:45Z Bike: it might indicate that the calling code is doing something you don't expect it to, which you might be interested in knowing.
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2019-10-19T18:00:11Z Josh_2: hmm
2019-10-19T18:00:19Z beach: But I don't think I can handle much more arguing about basic software-engineering ideas tonight.
2019-10-19T18:00:21Z beach: Sorry.
2019-10-19T18:00:30Z Josh_2: well I wouldn't have considered it arguing
2019-10-19T18:00:42Z Bike: for example if you write (foo x) somewhere but meant (foo y).
2019-10-19T18:00:57Z Bike: if an error is signaled because x is the wrong type, you can find the problem pretty fast.
2019-10-19T18:01:21Z beach: OK, then I don't think I can handle lengthy justifications of my position on elementary software engineering, with the risk of having those positions questioned, tonight.
2019-10-19T18:01:44Z Josh_2: I'm only asking because I don't know...
2019-10-19T18:01:50Z beach: Whew!
2019-10-19T18:02:05Z beach: Then, yes, always signal an error if there is a chance that the caller might do something wrong.
2019-10-19T18:02:19Z beach: Elementary software engineering.  Read Bertrand Meyer.
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2019-10-19T18:03:08Z Josh_2: Any particular book?
2019-10-19T18:03:30Z beach: I read that stuff a few decades ago, so I don't remember.
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2019-10-19T18:04:45Z beach: Look for "programming by contract"
2019-10-19T18:04:50Z beach: I think he invented that term.
2019-10-19T18:05:44Z beach: There is a Wikipedia entry on "Design by contract".
2019-10-19T18:05:48Z beach: That will do for a start.
2019-10-19T18:06:14Z beach: The contract here would be "the client must pass a list, or nothing at all".
2019-10-19T18:06:33Z beach: You check that the client respects the contract and you signal an error if not.
2019-10-19T18:07:24Z beach: This technique makes life easier for the person who has to debug defective code, because failure to respect the contract will then not be allowed to propagate more than absolutely necessary.
2019-10-19T18:08:05Z Josh_2: well that makes sense
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2019-10-19T18:08:14Z Josh_2: alrighty I'll do some reading on that
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2019-10-19T18:08:58Z beach: But I should learn not to get involved in people's personal preferences by quoting elementary software-engineering ideas.  The subsequent discussions tend to make me upset, and that's not good for me.
2019-10-19T18:09:22Z beach: Josh_2: Not talking about your or anybody else in particular.
2019-10-19T18:09:52Z beach: Anyway, I am off to spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
2019-10-19T18:20:57Z jeosol: beach: again, i know it's good for advise to be received or least pointers in the right direction. You are doing a good service here.
2019-10-19T18:21:50Z beach: Thanks.
2019-10-19T18:23:09Z jeosol: I get pointers from the comments you make to others to improve my code. The back-and-forth on some issues can be frustrating. I'll let you run to family now.
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2019-10-19T18:23:43Z beach: Yes, she is waiting.  I'll be back tomorrow (UTC+2).
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2019-10-19T18:24:17Z jeosol: Enjoy your the rest of your weekend.
2019-10-19T18:24:23Z beach: Thanks.
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2019-10-19T19:02:31Z Suzuran: I came to share this; https://imgur.com/gallery/2AxVkjL
2019-10-19T19:04:06Z Shinmera: oof, the condition of those tapes
2019-10-19T19:04:17Z Suzuran: If you think the tapes are bad you should see the machines
2019-10-19T19:07:00Z Suzuran: We're actually not doing too bad as far as data recovery goes; We're batting above 80% so far.
2019-10-19T19:07:54Z Suzuran: In fact, a tape just finished:
2019-10-19T19:07:57Z Suzuran: "Dump completed: Read 803 files having 6659 blocks (23986176 bytes), of which 59 blocks contained data errors."
2019-10-19T19:08:15Z Shinmera: Impressive
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2019-10-19T19:11:37Z Suzuran: We had one tape that came back no errors at all, it was really short and didn't have a lispm header; It turned out to be someone's copy of Spacewar for Unix (for old pre-SunOS Suns)
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2019-10-20T05:21:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-20T05:21:37Z Josh_2: mornin'
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2019-10-20T10:01:31Z names: jeosol davr0s davr0s_ v0|d stux|RC Oladon1 slyrus__ gabiruh_ stepnem chipolux MichaelRaskin zigpaw pjb monokrom pfdietz Cymew sellout- reggie_ sjl troydm lowryder tumdum charh flazh jasom myrkraverk Remavas mjanssen vaporatorius nydel gigetoo dxtr keep_learning sauvin simplegauss hdasch brass vsync Oddity kirkwood wooden dmiles ck_ ravndal Kaisyu7 loke megalography zmt00 cornett rumbler31 quantico jgkamat hjudt Mandus zotan SystemXProc MetaYan swflint
2019-10-20T10:01:31Z names: niceplace ferada dvdmuckle shinohai lonjil fiddlerwoaroof aeth sindan bjorkintosh aindilis moldybits cods Grauwolf nonlinear[m] dtw parjanya glamas Demosthenex jackhill uranther beach CEnnis91 Scrooge CommanderViral ramus greaser|q Xizor Ekho trn vhost- Mon_Ouie z0d isoraqathedh gko` rotty micro Krystof remexre tokik ft nckx hiredman sebboh Intensity cpape zymurgy bkst drot legit shenghi bhyde kiboneu dlowe jdz gabot alandipert drdo TMA alca astronavt
2019-10-20T10:01:31Z names: danielvu2 x[LGWs4x4i]uG2N0 minion keep-learning[m] malaclyps[m] munksgaard[m] phoe zcid joast ``Erik Colleen fengshaun d4ryus shaakyamuni[m] fynzh[m] mstdnuser[m] eriix[m] Gnuxie[m] djeis[m] hiq[m] Jachy no-defun-allowed katco sciamano akanouras liambrown LdBeth adolby CrazyEddy stux|RC-only iskander fitzsim zagura voidlily sammich emacsomancer borodust cmatei xantoz White_Flame datajerk h11 dilated_dinosaur oldtopman acolarh grobe0ba nightfly rumpelszn ski
2019-10-20T10:01:31Z names: kini guna HDurer femi copec abbe madand davsebamse SumoSud0 mbrumlow SyrupThinker Shinmera grumble thijso zbrown jxy _death ozzloy xristos superjudge p9fn zaltekk michalisko samebchase Ziemas funnel basketha1 scal_ wigust null_ptr snits markasoftware PuercoPop eagleflo stylewarning guaqua galdor payphone phadthai johs koenig jerme_ spacedbat |3b| dim sgithens eMBee physpi drmeister postit_ gendl chewbranca gjnoonan jhei asedeno tazjin tfb DrDuck XachX pent
2019-10-20T10:01:31Z names: @p_l theBlackDragon mrSpec gingerale Finnfinn DataLinkDroid2 parisienne rme selwyn capadoodle Xach flip214 bytesighs jsatk Grue`` @fe[nl]ix Blkt banjiewen interruptinuse fowlduck kilimanjaro rvirding cpt_nemo jlpeters splittist l1x mgsk ioa lieven knobo1 add^_ antoszka mood sshirokov AdmiralBumbleBee specbot sepi` kqr azrazalea jurov leo_song SlashLife Kabriel sbryant dru1d beaky kbtr dkrm tomaw equwalp sveit creat emma ecraven sukaeto Aritheanie
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2019-10-20T17:55:33Z markasoftware: How might I simplify (setf (nth (third node) to-return) (nconc (nth (third node) to-return) (list i))) ?
2019-10-20T17:56:10Z markasoftware: to-return is a list. I want to append the element i to the end of a certain sub-list of to-return
2019-10-20T17:56:55Z markasoftware: i can't just use nconc and rely on its mutation, because if (nth (third node) to-return) is null, it obviously can't modify nil.
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2019-10-20T17:58:07Z pjb: markasoftware: you write an appendf modifier macro (or use one from a library, but since it's a one-liner…)
2019-10-20T17:58:36Z pjb: clhs define-modify-macro
2019-10-20T17:58:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_2.htm
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2019-10-20T17:59:54Z markasoftware: oh, neat!
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2019-10-20T18:12:11Z markasoftware: is there any reason i should use (append) instead of (nconc) as the function passed to define-modify-macro?
2019-10-20T18:12:51Z pfdietz: Safety?   A common source of bugs is destructive modification of things that share structure with other things.
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2019-10-20T18:16:09Z markasoftware: ah, i guess you are right that the list migh tbe stored somewhere else too
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2019-10-20T18:22:16Z antonv: hi, is there a way to run a lisp in rowsell in non-standard readtable case? Like modern Allegro mode.
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2019-10-20T18:36:46Z markasoftware: is the lambda-list for define-modify-macro exclusively for the purpose of limiting the number of arguments?
2019-10-20T18:36:52Z markasoftware: i.e, the names of the parameters do not matter
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2019-10-20T18:50:49Z Bike: i don't think the names matter, no
2019-10-20T18:52:37Z Bike: though it'll show up in the macro lambda list in your ide
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2019-10-20T18:55:28Z markasoftware: when a global variable is bound, what exactly is it bound to? Does it have its own name, or is it simply bound to a symbol, and uses the symbol's name?
2019-10-20T18:55:33Z markasoftware: (i'm not sure if this is a meaningful question)
2019-10-20T18:58:16Z jackdaniel: markasoftware: when you have the object with slots, some of them may be not bound
2019-10-20T18:58:31Z jackdaniel: when you try to read a slot then you have the unbound-variable condition
2019-10-20T18:58:53Z jackdaniel: so variables (slots) may be bound to values
2019-10-20T18:59:24Z jackdaniel: also please see the glossary entry for "unbound variable" here http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_u.htm#unbound_variable
2019-10-20T19:00:31Z jackdaniel: I've mixed slots and variables here because I was looking for an examples of unbound places
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2019-10-20T19:04:52Z markasoftware: if a variable can be directly bound to a value, why do we need a value cell on symbols?
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2019-10-20T19:29:35Z peey: Is there any syntax in lisp which lets you use a symbol before its definition? e.g. something like (where (set-union s1 s2) (define s1 ....) (define s2 ...))
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2019-10-20T19:30:51Z Bike: you could define a macro for backwards let if you wanted, i guess
2019-10-20T19:31:21Z Bike: (defmacro where (form &rest bindings) `(let (,@bindings) ,form)), then (where (set-union s1 s2) (s1 ...) (s2 ...))
2019-10-20T19:33:44Z peey: Bike: Good enough. This should be a package. I think I'm remembering this because it's a standard way to write things in haskell
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2019-10-20T20:24:35Z Shinmera: I recommend writing code in the conventions established in that language. Trying to carry over conventions from other languages will only prevent you from truly learning the new one, and will hinder others reading your code.
2019-10-20T20:27:03Z makomo: markasoftware: what exactly confuses you about the value cell?
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2019-10-20T20:47:43Z White_Flame: markasoftware: when a variable is bound to a global's value, it copies that value from the symbol-value into your local variable.  The symbol-value is the canonical container for that named value
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2019-10-20T20:48:02Z White_Flame: specifically, I'm describing (let ((my-var *some-global*)) ...), as that seems to be what you're describing
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2019-10-20T20:49:19Z p_l: antonv: you'd probably need to prepare such a lisp yourself as an application. Not sure about reusing mlisp itself
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2019-10-21T03:58:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-21T04:12:58Z Josh_2: mornin'
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2019-10-21T04:23:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: mornin' beach
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2019-10-21T04:25:05Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Hey.  Sorry about the obsolete instructions in the README.
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2019-10-21T04:25:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: no problem, I did eventually manage to get the boot inspector to work
2019-10-21T04:25:49Z beach: Oh, good.
2019-10-21T04:26:12Z beach: In the past, I imported lots of stuff from the host, so a REPL was reasonable in that it had most of the Common Lisp standard stuff in the environment.
2019-10-21T04:26:25Z beach: Now I am more restrictive with imports.
2019-10-21T04:26:45Z beach: The plan is to load plenty of native SICL stuff into the last environment.
2019-10-21T04:26:56Z beach: But I haven't finished that work yet.
2019-10-21T04:27:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Makes sense
2019-10-21T04:28:31Z beach: In particular, since those instructions were written, I decided to incorporate the compiler in the initial executable, so the last environment needs to contain the compiler, which is a big step.
2019-10-21T04:28:56Z beach: In the past, I had the compiler code executed by the host.
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2019-10-21T04:30:53Z beach: And the reason for that decision was that I decided to use a printed version of the AST as the FASL format.
2019-10-21T04:31:32Z beach: It is safer than binary code, and it is independent of the backend.
2019-10-21T04:31:39Z beach: So there are lots of advantages.
2019-10-21T04:32:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool, I've been pretty busy recently, so I haven't written all that much CL lately
2019-10-21T04:33:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've been picking up my code for using the Mac's UI toolkit from CL to hopefully get it to the point where I can create a McCLIM backend
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2019-10-21T04:35:54Z beach: Sounds great!
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2019-10-21T05:02:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I also came up with this little modification to the pprint dispatch table to make the printed representation of hash-tables more useful: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/95a292289ca0477ac0d29e070165c82222dd5ddc.lisp.html
2019-10-21T05:03:34Z beach: Looks useful.
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2019-10-21T05:04:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: The output looks like this: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/25fa31be1332c7e8461a1785e48017de1bf460ca.nil.html
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2019-10-21T05:23:27Z beach: Nice.  Why do you not use PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT?
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2019-10-21T05:29:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I probably should, it was something I put together quickly that's proved to be useful
2019-10-21T05:29:22Z beach: OK.
2019-10-21T05:29:38Z loke: Do you really want to have PRINT show the entire content of a hash table by default?
2019-10-21T05:30:06Z loke: Perhaps abbreviate the content uless *PRINT-READBLY* is set?
2019-10-21T05:31:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that (or just paying attention to *print-length*/*print-level*) would be a good idea
2019-10-21T05:31:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a bit mitigated by the fact that this only applies when *print-pretty* is T (in LW, at least)
2019-10-21T05:33:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: I originally put it together for formatting the results of org-mode code blocks
2019-10-21T05:33:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. here: https://fiddlerwoaroof.github.io/cl-todo-backend/#orgd06e313
2019-10-21T05:34:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: And I've been copying it into new projects and tweaking it to be more featureful
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2019-10-21T13:13:55Z lxbarbosa: new game in lisp: https://github.com/srcnalt/moppu
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2019-10-21T13:58:04Z thijso: I've been adapting my ECL foray into Android apps into a generic template-ish github repo. If people are interested (still very much WIP, although it works for me): https://github.com/thijs/android-ecl-bootstrapI've been adapting my ECL foray into Android apps into a generic template-ish github repo. If people are interested (still very much WIP, although it works for me):
2019-10-21T13:58:09Z thijso: https://github.com/thijs/android-ecl-bootstrap
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2019-10-21T13:58:19Z thijso: Uhm, oops... double paste... my bad
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2019-10-21T13:58:43Z thijso: Anyway, comments welcome...
2019-10-21T13:59:59Z Xach: thijso: cool
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2019-10-21T14:03:31Z thijso: It should get you up and running (that is: installing your own example app on your phone) within a couple (4 to be exact) of commands (although some take a long time)
2019-10-21T14:04:12Z thijso: (ignoring the fact that you need docker, so it might take some pre-setup work to get started)
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2019-10-21T14:24:12Z shka__: is (simple-array * (*)) the same as (simple-array t (*)) ?
2019-10-21T14:24:39Z Bike: no, the former covers arrays specialized on other types
2019-10-21T14:25:14Z shka__: thank you for your answer
2019-10-21T14:25:15Z Bike: e.g. (simple-array bit (*)) is a subtype of (simple-array * (*)) but not a subtype of (simple-array t (*))
2019-10-21T14:25:29Z shka__: i understand, thank you
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2019-10-21T14:45:42Z Cymew: lxbarbosa: Your system does not load with the instructions you have on there. There's an unmentioned dependency on something called "trivial-gamekit"/
2019-10-21T14:46:55Z lxbarbosa: Cymew: indeed, trivial-gamekit
2019-10-21T14:46:59Z lxbarbosa: https://github.com/borodust/trivial-gamekit
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2019-10-21T14:49:41Z Cymew: Also "bodge-utilities" is not mentioned either.
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2019-10-21T14:52:17Z Cymew: Nor  "cl-bodge/graphics"
2019-10-21T14:52:23Z Cymew: I give up.
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2019-10-21T16:07:36Z borodust: lxbarbosa: did you follow instructions from here? https://github.com/borodust/post-man#installation-and-running
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2019-10-21T16:09:03Z borodust: you need testing dist (one mentioned in  the readme above)
2019-10-21T16:09:49Z borodust: ah, for moppu you are good with stable dist too
2019-10-21T16:10:44Z borodust: ah, i guess i misunderstood
2019-10-21T16:11:28Z borodust: Cymew: you need to install dist as mentioned in trivial-gamekit readme
2019-10-21T16:12:09Z borodust: As mentioned in https://github.com/borodust/trivial-gamekit#installation-and-loading
2019-10-21T16:13:02Z borodust: then you won't need to explicitly load any dependencies
2019-10-21T16:14:04Z borodust: also, there are several new lisp games :)
2019-10-21T16:14:07Z borodust: https://itch.io/jam/autumn-lisp-game-jam-2019/entries
2019-10-21T16:16:02Z borodust: note to self: need to tell the author to update their readme
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2019-10-21T17:14:16Z shka_: hi
2019-10-21T17:14:37Z shka_: i am looking for a way to extract list of variables selected in the query in sx-sql
2019-10-21T17:14:48Z shka_: is it possible?
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2019-10-21T17:22:11Z Xach has never used sxql
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2019-10-21T20:58:47Z White_Flame: is there a clean way to scope a readtable for a particular QL or ASDF system?
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2019-10-21T20:59:07Z White_Flame: ie, so it only gets used in those systems and not globally
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2019-10-21T21:03:56Z flubberhead: Hello, I'm trying to wrap my head around setf as part of a larger question in an assignment. The code I currently have prints what I would expect, but I receive an error warning saying x is an undefined variable and I'm not sure what is wrong. Here is a paste of my code: https://pastebin.com/NgjseVA5
2019-10-21T21:04:48Z White_Flame: you never declared X.   (defvar x nil) before your code
2019-10-21T21:04:52Z aeth: flubberhead: SETF modifies a binding, it shouldn't be used to create a new binding. LET creates a new binding.
2019-10-21T21:05:00Z no-defun-allowed: The variable X isn't defined anywhere, and that formatting is not very nice to read.
2019-10-21T21:05:09Z aeth: (Or globally DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER)
2019-10-21T21:05:32Z White_Flame: also, your "lst" parameter can simply be called "list".  There will be no name collision with the function named LIST
2019-10-21T21:05:42Z no-defun-allowed: Looks local to me, so LET is more appropriate.
2019-10-21T21:05:47Z no-defun-allowed: clhs let
2019-10-21T21:05:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2019-10-21T21:05:47Z flubberhead: Oh I see, thank you.
2019-10-21T21:06:09Z flubberhead: so I use let to declare a binding, then if I want to re assigne it I'd use setf
2019-10-21T21:06:12Z flubberhead: >
2019-10-21T21:06:49Z flubberhead: also, no-defun-allowed: is there a good guide to formatting better?
2019-10-21T21:07:26Z no-defun-allowed: https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml?showone=Horizontal_white_space#Horizontal_white_space is probably relevant here.
2019-10-21T21:07:53Z aeth: Local bindings in CL are very explicit, so LET is used, and it increases the indentation level (and expression nesting level). LET* if you need to refer to something else in the same set of bindings like (let ((x 42)) (y (* 2 x))) ...)
2019-10-21T21:08:27Z White_Flame: (let ((x (take-n ...))) (list x ....))
2019-10-21T21:08:33Z aeth: (And technically, you can use &aux, but don't do that. Bad style.)
2019-10-21T21:09:07Z aeth: Oh sorry, I was unclear, I mean compare let vs. let* in my x and y example.
2019-10-21T21:09:35Z White_Flame: flubberhead: your indentation and  paren locations are fine.  It's just the lack of whitespace between things
2019-10-21T21:10:19Z flubberhead: ah ok, I'll work on my formatting for the white space
2019-10-21T21:12:19Z flubberhead: aeth: so let* basically allows for defining bindings inside that binding's scope?
2019-10-21T21:13:18Z aeth: flubberhead: let* means that y in (y (* 2 x)) refers to the inner x, which is 42.  let means that y would try to refer to the parent's x
2019-10-21T21:13:39Z White_Flame: in (let* ((a ..) (b ..) (c ..)) ...), B sees the new value of A, an C  sees the new values of A and B
2019-10-21T21:13:52Z aeth: (let ((x 1)) (let ((x 42) (y (* 2 x))) y)) ; 2
2019-10-21T21:13:55Z aeth: (let ((x 1)) (let* ((x 42) (y (* 2 x))) y)) ; 84
2019-10-21T21:14:22Z flubberhead: that makes sense with those examples, thanks
2019-10-21T21:14:32Z aeth: And LET* is in order so a lot of the time where you might think you need SETF, you can just use LET* instead.
2019-10-21T21:15:15Z aeth: i.e. (let ((x 1)) (let* ((y (* 2 x)) (x 42)) y)) ; 2
2019-10-21T21:16:31Z flubberhead: that's really useful to know. My "course pack" is very brief so is missing some of the finer points.
2019-10-21T21:19:27Z flubberhead: thanks for the help everyone
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2019-10-21T21:20:31Z White_Flame: there are also some good books available (some for free) which teach the language quite well. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ is widely recommended
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2019-10-21T21:21:44Z flubberhead: awesome, thanks.
2019-10-21T21:22:04Z flubberhead: I do want to actually learn lisp, not just get through the section of this course.
2019-10-21T21:22:17Z White_Flame: that's good to hear
2019-10-21T21:23:40Z flubberhead: I can see how lisp is really useful once you are good at it.
2019-10-21T21:24:50Z flubberhead: I'm out for now, but I'll be back
2019-10-21T21:25:27Z aeth: It depends on if you like the syntax. With a Lisp, pretty much everything you do can be expressed in s-expressions and only at the end transformed into what you need. e.g. HTML as (:p "Foo")
2019-10-21T21:27:53Z aeth: With most environments, you have to deal with 5 different syntaxes.
2019-10-21T21:28:43Z White_Flame: Are dispatch macro character registrations contained within the readtable, or global?
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2019-10-21T21:30:09Z Shinmera: readtable.
2019-10-21T21:30:22Z White_Flame: cool
2019-10-21T21:31:13Z White_Flame: just to be extra specific, (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\{ ...) will only affect the current readtable, and swapping another one out will not have the #{ hook?
2019-10-21T21:31:22Z Shinmera: with regard to your earlier question, typically people use named-readtables and an in-readtable after in-package in every file.
2019-10-21T21:31:42Z White_Flame: ah, ok.  I hadn't seen that usage
2019-10-21T21:31:59Z Shinmera: that should be the case yes, but you should use named-readtables, which has a nice declarative syntax for the macros.
2019-10-21T21:32:38Z Shinmera: *for the readtables and their macrso
2019-10-21T21:37:11Z White_Flame: yes, I've used it before, but only globally
2019-10-21T21:40:04Z White_Flame makes a reader macro char that calls in-readtable, for nested use
2019-10-21T21:40:24Z Shinmera: oh dear
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2019-10-21T21:40:55Z White_Flame: yep. rabbit hole time
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2019-10-22T00:17:15Z White_Flame: Is there a hook to add custom constituent token -> object conversion without having the token interned as a symbol first?
2019-10-22T00:17:57Z Bike: fraid not.
2019-10-22T00:18:06Z White_Flame: hrm, key
2019-10-22T00:18:10Z White_Flame: *okey
2019-10-22T00:18:42Z Bike: eclector might have one, i forget
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2019-10-22T02:05:16Z White_Flame: well, #{ <readtable-name> ... } now works to nest named-readtables
2019-10-22T02:05:24Z White_Flame is happy
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2019-10-22T03:20:11Z LdBeth: White_Flame: do you mean custom ob-array?
2019-10-22T03:22:04Z White_Flame: no, more like (list 1 2 #{ my-lang (+ 1 2) #{common-lisp (+ 1 2) } (+ 1 2)} ) => (1 2 (my-parse + 1 2) 3 (my-parse 1 2))
2019-10-22T03:22:33Z White_Flame: well, probably too long for an IRC line.  But I can nest the _use_ of custom readtables to nest expressions of different languages/representations
2019-10-22T03:22:56Z White_Flame: (and I typo'd in there anyway)
2019-10-22T03:23:34Z White_Flame: (and it's a degenerate example anyway)
2019-10-22T03:24:04Z LdBeth: I see. I needs to be handled explicitly by the reader macro.
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2019-10-22T03:36:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-22T03:36:20Z Josh_2: Mornin'
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2019-10-22T03:45:06Z LdBeth: hello beach
2019-10-22T03:47:33Z LdBeth: what do you recommend for learning design patterns with Common Lisp Objective Oriented programming?
2019-10-22T03:47:56Z Josh_2: OO programming CL by Sonja E Keene?
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2019-10-22T03:49:06Z no-defun-allowed: Design patterns are compromises for bad language design.
2019-10-22T03:49:09Z White_Flame: design patterns exits to cover for coding complexities that emerge within particular languages
2019-10-22T03:49:22Z no-defun-allowed: So, hopefully you don't learn DPs.
2019-10-22T03:49:29Z White_Flame: different programming paradigms have different "patterns" and one shouldn't just port them from one to another
2019-10-22T03:49:44Z White_Flame: common lisp has defmacro to get rid of pattern-heavy programming
2019-10-22T03:50:14Z White_Flame: as a solution to noticing patterns cropping up in your code
2019-10-22T03:53:16Z aeth: every language has design patterns... Common Lisp, I guess, has some macro patterns.
2019-10-22T03:54:42Z LdBeth: *no-defun-allowed*: but you cannot avoid it, since CL is not perfect
2019-10-22T03:55:32Z LdBeth: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-functional-programmers-criticize-design-patterns-in-OOP-languages-as-a-sign-of-language-deficiency-while-Monad-is-also-a-design-pattern/answer/Edward-Kmett
2019-10-22T03:55:38Z beach: LdBeth: I don't know the best source, but I can tell you that I didn't "get" object-oriented programming in Common Lisp by reading Keene's book.  I only understood it once I read the CLIM II specification.
2019-10-22T03:56:09Z Josh_2: It's a good book though :P
2019-10-22T03:56:26Z no-defun-allowed: http://norvig.com/design-patterns/design-patterns.pdf
2019-10-22T03:56:41Z no-defun-allowed: The big takeaway: "16 of 23 patterns have qualitatively simpler implementation in Lisp or Dylan than in C++ for at least some uses of each pattern"
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2019-10-22T03:58:06Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: yeah, but CL has its own, different patterns
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2019-10-22T03:58:32Z aeth: and some people would want to macro them away, but not everyone would want to deal with macros like that
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2019-10-22T04:05:17Z pjb: LdBeth: see http://informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Object-Oriented-Programming
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2019-10-22T04:06:32Z LdBeth: al, it seems an interesting pointer
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2019-10-22T07:03:07Z no-defun-allowed: I am trying again to run CL on a Raspberry Pi, this time it's a Pi Zero I got in the mail. What implementation should I use?
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2019-10-22T07:05:07Z mfiano2: SBCL or CCL work great on any ARM device, my Pi devices included.
2019-10-22T07:06:18Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL doesn't support threads on 32-bit ARM, and CCL had some weird memory corruption bug possibly caused by mutexes being not very exclusive.
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2019-10-22T07:10:28Z no-defun-allowed: Although they are very nice -- it isn't possible to implement green threads in CL and work from there, is it?
2019-10-22T07:11:46Z Josh_2: there are green threads libraries
2019-10-22T07:11:59Z Josh_2: cl-flow?
2019-10-22T07:12:14Z no-defun-allowed: Can't imagine that working actually.
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2019-10-22T07:12:31Z no-defun-allowed: Josh_2: I mean, running straight off normal CL functions, no CPS or transformations.
2019-10-22T07:13:06Z mfiano2: Don't use a 32 bit OS?
2019-10-22T07:13:29Z Josh_2: rasp pi zero w, you don't have a choice
2019-10-22T07:15:13Z no-defun-allowed: They're both 32 bit boards.
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2019-10-22T10:59:14Z tfb: aeth: macro patterns, yes, for instance (with-x(x)  ...) expanding to (call-with-x (lambda (x) ...)) is a pretty common thing
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2019-10-22T16:17:35Z alandipert: if a GO escapes its lexically-enclosing TAGBODY via LAMBDA, and is later executed in a dynamically-enclosing TAGBODY with a matching tag name, is that supposed to work? or is undefined
2019-10-22T16:17:49Z alandipert: consulting CLTL and CLHS i'm not really sure, thanks for clarification
2019-10-22T16:20:27Z Shinmera: TAGBODY establishes lexical labels. Capturing them and calling them outside their original scope is undefined.
2019-10-22T16:20:28Z beach: It is undefined behavoir.
2019-10-22T16:20:39Z beach: behavior even.
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2019-10-22T16:21:51Z alandipert: ok, thanks beach and Shinmera
2019-10-22T16:22:57Z beach: Anytime.
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2019-10-22T16:23:15Z alandipert: is it true that LAMBDA is the only way a tag could escape?
2019-10-22T16:23:31Z beach: FLET, LABELS.
2019-10-22T16:23:59Z alandipert: ah of course. an additional thank-you :-)
2019-10-22T16:24:09Z beach: :)
2019-10-22T16:26:45Z alandipert remapped caps lock to escape and ctrl many years ago, with all my CL-ing it might be time for caps lock to make a comeback
2019-10-22T16:27:20Z alandipert: a keyboard with it labeled CommonLisp would be cute
2019-10-22T16:27:54Z Xach: alandipert: escape AND control?
2019-10-22T16:28:09Z alandipert: Xach yeah, momentary for escape, hold for ctrl
2019-10-22T16:28:45Z Xach: alandipert: how?
2019-10-22T16:28:55Z alandipert: Xach depends on your OS, what are you on?
2019-10-22T16:29:09Z Xach: let us discuss this privately if you don't mind!
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2019-10-22T16:56:31Z pjb: alandipert: "GO escaping its lexically enclosing TAGBODY" is meaningless.
2019-10-22T16:56:40Z pjb: alandipert: present code examples instead!
2019-10-22T16:57:54Z jackdaniel: I imagine it is (tagbody foo (lambda () (go foo))
2019-10-22T16:57:56Z alandipert: pjb i meant a situation like (tagbody t0 (setq f (lambda () (go t0)))) and then later (funcall f) in some other tagbody branch
2019-10-22T16:58:10Z jackdaniel: and there is a clarification in the spec that there are three strategies
2019-10-22T16:58:12Z jackdaniel: let me look for it
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2019-10-22T16:58:41Z pjb: alandipert: still meaningless: tagbody doesn't have branches.
2019-10-22T16:59:23Z alandipert: pjb i don't find myself particularly motivated to clarify for you since i don't want to spend my day arguing semantics, but maybe someone else has the time to entertain you
2019-10-22T17:00:43Z pjb: alandipert: if you keep thinking illogically about code, you will keep not undertanding what you're asking.
2019-10-22T17:00:56Z jackdaniel: it is hard to look for it, because cleanup issues are not indexed
2019-10-22T17:01:05Z jackdaniel: and I don't remember this particular issue number ;)
2019-10-22T17:01:56Z jackdaniel: alandipert: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss152_w.htm
2019-10-22T17:02:44Z jackdaniel: in other words: behavior is not defined, but if you are lucky it may work as you desire (probably you want medium-extent)
2019-10-22T17:02:57Z jackdaniel: exit-extent medium °
2019-10-22T17:03:32Z jackdaniel: or full
2019-10-22T17:03:56Z jackdaniel: s/or full//
2019-10-22T17:04:25Z alandipert: pjb i appreciate your concern, but i think i'm doing OK. in the future, don't hesitate to ignore me
2019-10-22T17:04:41Z alandipert: jackdaniel many thanks, this is good reading
2019-10-22T17:05:08Z jackdaniel: sure
2019-10-22T17:05:55Z Bike: er, hang on, there's no way it would GO to a tag with the same name
2019-10-22T17:06:00Z Bike: in a different tagbody
2019-10-22T17:06:05Z jackdaniel: there isn't
2019-10-22T17:06:08Z Bike: medium versus minimal is just about unwinding
2019-10-22T17:06:26Z jackdaniel: I've looked over the issue and this exact code which alandipert shown is explicitly said as erroneous
2019-10-22T17:06:29Z jackdaniel: under both strategies
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2019-10-22T17:06:33Z Bike: right ok.
2019-10-22T17:06:35Z Bike: if you want something dynamic like that, catch/throw is the only game in town
2019-10-22T17:06:37Z jackdaniel: but it clarifies the issue
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2019-10-22T17:16:17Z pjb: for those who don't want me to ignore them, here is an example of the meaning of the word "undefined": https://pastebin.com/XTWp9TNR
2019-10-22T17:16:52Z lxbarbosa: good lord, there are some lisp that default to ~/quicklisp...
2019-10-22T17:16:56Z lxbarbosa: packages
2019-10-22T17:17:28Z lxbarbosa: if you set quicklisp to use another folder, expect for errors in such a packages
2019-10-22T17:17:53Z Shinmera: file issues with the project maintainers.
2019-10-22T17:18:18Z Xach: lxbarbosa: what's an example?
2019-10-22T17:18:58Z lxbarbosa: one moment please
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2019-10-22T17:20:03Z lxbarbosa: xembed for one
2019-10-22T17:20:47Z lxbarbosa: its a package that one stumpwm module depends on, and if quicklisp is in another location ....meh
2019-10-22T17:21:16Z lxbarbosa: there was  some others... I literally just gave up, and installed in ~/quicklisp again
2019-10-22T17:21:56Z Xach: where can I find xembed?
2019-10-22T17:22:08Z Xach: The one I found through google doesn't refer to quicklisp (that I can see)
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2019-10-22T17:22:25Z Xach: I'm simply curious, so if you don't feel like continuing that's fine.
2019-10-22T17:22:46Z lxbarbosa: its installed by quicklisp so its listed there too
2019-10-22T17:23:02Z lxbarbosa: there was dbus and xml-emitter, that had that issue too
2019-10-22T17:23:29Z lxbarbosa: all "quicklisp" packages
2019-10-22T17:23:43Z Xach: lxbarbosa: normally projects that refer to quicklisp don't build in my build system and can't be included, so i'm curious about the details
2019-10-22T17:24:19Z Xach: lxbarbosa: I don't see any reference to quicklisp in xembed at all - what error did you get?
2019-10-22T17:24:32Z Xach: Maybe a stale fasl or something is the problem?
2019-10-22T17:25:45Z lxbarbosa: Xach: I'll soon confirm... one moment
2019-10-22T17:25:48Z Xach: thanks
2019-10-22T17:27:57Z pjb: Correction: https://pastebin.com/zNTD6LYd
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2019-10-22T18:10:12Z _death: lxbarbosa: dbus doesn't refer to quicklisp either
2019-10-22T18:11:28Z lxbarbosa: _death: hmm, ive created a new user, soon I will pinpoint correctly what packages I had that error :D
2019-10-22T18:11:35Z Xach: the mystery deepens
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2019-10-22T18:33:21Z lxbarbosa: Xach: yep, Ive created a new user, installed sbcl,quicklisp and stumpwm, everything is working correctly. meh.
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2019-10-22T18:37:22Z jackdaniel: lxbarbosa: remove ~/.cache/common-lisp and check ~/common-lisp/ and QLPATH/local-projects/ to find something suspicious
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2019-10-22T18:39:35Z lxbarbosa: jackdaniel: unbeknown of such a fasl files, creating a new user confirmed that that might be the issue.
2019-10-22T18:40:08Z lxbarbosa: never heard of QLPATH... interesting
2019-10-22T18:40:09Z lxbarbosa: :D
2019-10-22T18:43:49Z jackdaniel: that was a mental shortcut
2019-10-22T18:44:10Z jackdaniel: but indeed I usually define an environment variable to point to the local ql installation
2019-10-22T18:45:03Z lxbarbosa: I thought that fasl were regenerated as we compile a new version of lisp software...
2019-10-22T18:45:28Z jackdaniel: asdf caches what it can
2019-10-22T18:45:44Z jackdaniel: that is the bright side, otherwise you'd die waiting every time you start new lisp image
2019-10-22T18:46:12Z lxbarbosa: jackdaniel: ive seen that one... :D
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2019-10-23T04:09:07Z LdBeth: no-defun-allowed: maybe the only viable one is ecl
2019-10-23T04:10:02Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: Maybe. The ECL (well, C) compiler is bog slow though.
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2019-10-23T04:14:57Z no-defun-allowed: Now, if I have a generic function with method combination PROGN, what can I do to allow one method to skip the rest of the rest of the methods?
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2019-10-23T04:15:49Z no-defun-allowed: Or rather, how can I not call the methods if some precondition is true?
2019-10-23T04:16:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-23T04:16:33Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning beach!
2019-10-23T04:16:36Z Josh_2: Mornin' beach
2019-10-23T04:19:01Z no-defun-allowed: I tried to conditionally call-next-method in an :around method but I don't think that worked right.
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2019-10-23T04:27:06Z mfiano2: They are all called, or none at all. You must put any such logic in the primary methods.
2019-10-23T04:27:37Z no-defun-allowed: Fair enough then.
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2019-10-23T04:30:50Z no-defun-allowed: Might be time to meet DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION. I like my protocol too much.
2019-10-23T04:31:23Z space_otter: hello
2019-10-23T04:31:32Z beach: Hello space_otter.
2019-10-23T04:31:41Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I think there is more than one library that does that already.
2019-10-23T04:31:49Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Xof wrote one I think.
2019-10-23T04:32:49Z mfiano2: I have a ~30kloc codebase I've been working on for a few months that makes heavy use of PROGN combination, and I feel your pain. If such a library exists, I'd be interested in taking a gander myself.
2019-10-23T04:33:30Z beach: space_otter: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2019-10-23T04:35:38Z space_otter: yep
2019-10-23T04:36:01Z beach: Great.  What brings you to #lisp?
2019-10-23T04:36:50Z space_otter: i've been trying to make sbcl spit out SSE instructions. it works for floats, but not integers
2019-10-23T04:37:31Z mfiano2: Sadly, "Xof" isn't a very useful search term and cannot find his public repositories or any associated Lisp user.
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2019-10-23T04:44:38Z beach: I found "Generalizers: New Metaobjects for Generalized Dispatch" by Christophe Rhodes, Jan Moringen, and David Lichteblau
2019-10-23T04:46:38Z no-defun-allowed: Is it this paper? https://arxiv.org/pdf/1403.2765.pdf
2019-10-23T04:46:56Z beach: Yes.
2019-10-23T04:47:33Z beach: There is also "Filtered Dispatch" by Pascal Costanza and Charlotte Herzeel.
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2019-10-23T04:56:23Z space_otter: to be specific, this produces an SSE2 ADDSD instruction: (defun vadd (a b) (declare (type (simple-array double-float *) a b)) (map 'vector #'+ a b)), but substituting (signed-byte 8) doesn't produce any SSE instruction
2019-10-23T04:59:08Z beach: space_otter: Did you discuss this with the SBCL maintainers?
2019-10-23T04:59:38Z space_otter: nope I came here first
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2019-10-23T05:02:02Z no-defun-allowed: There would probably be people with better knowledge about SBCL internals in #sbcl. Most are probably here too, but they probably check #sbcl more for that kind of question.
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2019-10-23T05:05:26Z no-defun-allowed: This works as far as I can tell: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1524#1524
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2019-10-23T05:06:49Z beach: Great!
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2019-10-23T05:08:14Z no-defun-allowed: Though I'm sure d-m-c has some more stuff to throw at me. This is mostly just the OR example in the CLHS.
2019-10-23T05:11:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-e
2019-10-23T05:11:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: you could put a (catch 'exit (call-next-method)) in an around method and then (throw 'exit)
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2019-10-23T05:12:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: (throw 'exit nil)
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2019-10-23T05:12:31Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. I just wanted :around to make more sense.
2019-10-23T05:13:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think I misunderstand what you're trying to do
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2019-10-23T05:13:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: My point was that the method that wanted to stop execution could do the throw
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2019-10-23T05:13:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then any other methods that would normally follow it wouldn't run
2019-10-23T05:14:05Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
2019-10-23T05:14:37Z no-defun-allowed: I'm trying to allow :around methods to prevent the calling of all primary methods.
2019-10-23T05:16:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I see, I did misunderstand :)
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2019-10-23T05:21:56Z mfiano2: The filtered-functions paper sounds familiar. I think I read this years ago. It was still interesting though. Thanks! One issue I have is their use of keyword symbols to designate filtering functions. I am hoping that is not a restriction of the reference implementation.
2019-10-23T05:22:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: The filtered-function idea is really cool
2019-10-23T05:26:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: I'm surprised putting a condition in :around didn't work
2019-10-23T05:27:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you have a code sample you're willing to share, I'd be interested to look at it
2019-10-23T05:27:27Z mfiano2: Ah my concerns are mostly lifted, since the filter designator is confined to the package qualified generic function anyway.
2019-10-23T05:28:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: As I remember, you define a function that maps the arguments to a dispatch value and that value is used, right?
2019-10-23T05:29:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: The issue I had with that package is you had to :USE closer-common-lisp instead of cl to make it work portably
2019-10-23T05:29:35Z mfiano2: Yeah, something like (:filters (:dispatch-name #'filter-func)) within a defgeneric-like form
2019-10-23T05:29:54Z mfiano2: missing a closing paren there, because IRC is great
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2019-10-23T05:30:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, it's cool how we can get Clojure's multimethods as a library :)
2019-10-23T05:30:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I write Clojure, I always get annoyed whenever I try to use multimethods
2019-10-23T05:30:51Z mfiano2: Yeah. I was always fond of that about Clojure. About the only thing to be honest.
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2019-10-23T05:31:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd like to have core.async and a couple other things in CL
2019-10-23T05:32:06Z mfiano2: Ugh, why :use? That is something I don't like to do. I reserve it for very special situations and prefer not to :use anything other than :cl in most situations.
2019-10-23T05:32:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano2: the CLOSER-COMMON-LISP package is basically the CL package with some functions replaced to be more consistent cross-implementations
2019-10-23T05:32:45Z mfiano2: Though I guess this is a special situation (extending the language or writing a new language)
2019-10-23T05:32:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could probably get away with shadowing DEFGENERIC/DEFMETHOD
2019-10-23T05:34:03Z mfiano2: Yeah. I'll have to play around with this. It's getting me excited (even though I knew it existed already)
2019-10-23T05:34:50Z mfiano2: I share all of beach's opinions on :USE is all. I think he has mentioned why quite a few times.
2019-10-23T05:35:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
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2019-10-23T05:36:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: I never :USE anymore, except when I want to embed my own lisp
2019-10-23T05:36:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: And I get annoyed when I find my old code that does :USE
2019-10-23T05:37:13Z mfiano2: Yeah, same. It really makes a mess of things, both coming back to old code at a later date, and readers of my code trying to make sense of things.
2019-10-23T05:37:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I occasionally make an exception for a couple "well-known" libraries
2019-10-23T05:38:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: particularly alexandria and serapeum, since I use them almost everywhere, but lately I've just used IMPORT-FROM for the constructs I care about
2019-10-23T05:38:48Z mfiano2: I don't. I actually started employing PLN earlier this year to combat that very exception I was making. I'd rather be almost-portable, but portable enough, than to not know where symbols are coming from at a quick glance.
2019-10-23T05:39:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use Lispworks frequently enough that I avoid PLN
2019-10-23T05:39:43Z mfiano2: Fair enough :)
2019-10-23T05:40:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I did contact their support staff to request that they implement the "standard"
2019-10-23T05:40:14Z mfiano2: I sort of wish the standard kept the hierarchy packages from the old days. But we get what we got.
2019-10-23T05:40:21Z mfiano2: hierarchical*
2019-10-23T05:41:38Z mfiano2: Good, did they respond at all?
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2019-10-23T05:45:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, they said they were looking into it
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2019-10-23T05:46:18Z mfiano2: Nice, in time I guess. I think PLN is making some good progress lately. We're up to 5 implementations so far, anyway.
2019-10-23T05:47:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder if it could be implemented via an ASDF extension
2019-10-23T05:47:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. parse the defpackage form and then rewrite the source file before compiling/loading it
2019-10-23T05:48:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's not ideal, but it'd be useful for making it portable
2019-10-23T05:48:11Z mfiano2: It can't. It needs implementation support
2019-10-23T05:48:42Z mfiano2: It gets complicated coercing the reader and getting print-read consistency
2019-10-23T05:50:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, I think my scheme would guarantee a sort of print-read consistency
2019-10-23T05:51:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: The PLNs wouldn't exist at all to the implementations that don't support them
2019-10-23T05:52:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: The drawback would be that SLIME wouldn't really work for development
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2019-10-23T05:54:52Z mfiano2: Yeah, I think there's quite a few edge cases in that scheme, such as requiring files to be specified in the ASD. I have seen and have written systems that LOAD arbitrary files at runtime not tracked by ASDF, too.
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2019-10-23T10:43:39Z thijso: Is there a way to 'apply' 1 pass of macroexpansion on a lisp source file? I see examples of how to macroexpand 1 function of form, but I'd like to just get the complete file (with multiple defuns) with macro's applied...
2019-10-23T10:44:16Z thijso: use case: I have a file that at the top defines to macros to build the actual defuns, but I want to see what the actual defuns expand to
2019-10-23T10:44:26Z thijso: s/to/two/
2019-10-23T10:45:23Z Shinmera: call read repeatedly on the file and macroexpand?
2019-10-23T10:45:46Z Shinmera: if you want to expand macros not-at-top-level you'll need a code walker
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2019-10-23T10:47:31Z thijso: hmmm, forgot that you can just read source files... lemme see where that gets me
2019-10-23T10:47:53Z Shinmera: you can't always, if reader changes are made, for instance.
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2019-10-23T11:40:24Z thijso: For some reason ECL on android does not like eval-when... makes some systems hard to use (like bordeaux-threads)
2019-10-23T11:41:03Z thijso: Looks like preparing an adapted default-implementations file for android does work. Lot of work, though, and breaks the portability of bt... :(
2019-10-23T11:41:17Z thijso: Although... maybe I can do something with :features...
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2019-10-23T13:12:59Z pfdietz: Simply reading a lisp file can be challenging, since evaluation/compilation of one form can affect how later ones are processed.  *package* can change, as can the read table.  Macros can be defined then used.
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2019-10-23T14:23:28Z Xach: That's why I ponder instrumenting a real compiler to dump out so much info when it's done. I'd love to see a lisp lxr-type thing.
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2019-10-23T14:47:06Z pfdietz: One can play games with *macroexpand-hook*.
2019-10-23T14:48:03Z Xach does that to show progress
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2019-10-23T15:41:40Z pfdietz: Indeed you do
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2019-10-23T16:36:56Z alandipert: Xach what do you mean by lxr-type?
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2019-10-23T16:46:16Z beach: alandipert: I am guessing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LXR_Cross_Referencer
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2019-10-23T16:58:42Z alandipert: beach interesting, thanks
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2019-10-23T17:16:00Z Xach: alandipert: that's right. hypertext source code that is heavily interlinked.
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2019-10-23T17:25:24Z ck_: how does it feel to type the parens you love? interlinked
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2019-10-23T17:30:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: )(
2019-10-23T17:34:08Z Shinmera: cons within cons, interlinked
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2019-10-23T18:24:05Z remexre: are there any useful tools for debugging a CPU exception in FFI'd code in SBCL? gdb catches a SIGUSR1 from sbcl on start, and then gets a segfault, weirdly
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2019-10-23T18:58:39Z LdBeth: Xach: how far is xref from your expectation?
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2019-10-23T18:59:38Z Xach: LdBeth: It is great for online reference! but i want something that is vastly bigger and offline
2019-10-23T19:00:02Z Xach: I want something that xrefs everything in quicklisp, or more
2019-10-23T19:01:31Z Xach: by "offline" i mean "not using a running CL system"
2019-10-23T19:01:47Z Xach: and that opens up some possibilities, because it's not possible to actually load everything online
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2019-10-23T19:05:09Z Xach: I picture the ability to look at a project and find out if other people use it, how other people use it, how it is implemented
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2019-10-23T19:38:59Z pfdietz: It's not possible to load all of quicklisp at the same time, which annoys me.   Package collisions are a big culprit.   This is why I want PLNs in all CL implementations.
2019-10-23T19:42:20Z Xach: I also want PLNs but I want them to be usable with no compatibility library.
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2019-10-23T19:51:04Z White_Flame: new standard time
2019-10-23T19:51:09Z White_Flame: start meetings
2019-10-23T19:53:29Z jackdaniel: in principle PLN as specified is usable without compatibility libraries, because there is extension to defpackage macro
2019-10-23T19:53:46Z jackdaniel: only some manipulation bits are hidden in implementation-specific packages
2019-10-23T19:54:08Z Xach: jackdaniel: that's what i wish was different.
2019-10-23T19:54:21Z Xach: I wish other standard things were extended to absorb that housekeeping too.
2019-10-23T19:54:35Z Xach: in for a penny
2019-10-23T19:54:36Z jackdaniel: I get that, but I'm rather anxious to change general "ext" package to "sb-ext" ;-)
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2019-10-23T19:55:24Z jackdaniel: there is cl-implementers mailing list and there was a single proposal years ago: to standarize quit function
2019-10-23T19:55:37Z jackdaniel: and it ended with nothing, even if function was basically the same in all implementations
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2019-10-23T19:55:58Z jackdaniel: I think that they couldn't agree on the package name
2019-10-23T19:57:25Z Xach: Right. That's why I think standard CL:<foo> functions should be extended instead.
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2019-10-23T20:00:38Z Xach: i had a plan mapped out but found out it's not compliant to return new extra values :~(
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2019-10-23T20:05:48Z Shinmera: remexre: segfaults are used by the GC.
2019-10-23T20:06:34Z Shinmera: remexre: My advice is to start your lisp, go up to the point where the FFI problem would happen, then attach gdb/lldb and finally run your thing. Continue in the debugger to skip over unrelated problems until you get to the one you care about.
2019-10-23T20:06:38Z remexre: W... Wh... What???
2019-10-23T20:07:05Z remexre: I actually figured it out, I was passing a null pointer to an out argument
2019-10-23T20:07:16Z Bike: what are you whatting at
2019-10-23T20:07:22Z remexre:  the segfault thing is big yikes
2019-10-23T20:07:31Z Shinmera: No it's not, it's a common strategy.
2019-10-23T20:07:32Z Bike: it's nothing unusual for a garbage collector
2019-10-23T20:10:48Z Xach: to the tune of "it's not unusual"
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2019-10-23T20:44:21Z aeth: Xach: couldn't that be resolved by having a package that reexports CL package symbols and adds new ones?
2019-10-23T20:45:02Z aeth: e.g. CL19 or something (works for every year except 2021 because someone decided "CL21" was a good name)
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2019-10-23T20:55:14Z no-defun-allowed: remexre: In SBCL, old generations are write-protected so the collector can avoid scavenging pages that don't contain references to newer generations. Writing to an older generation triggers a segfault, which SBCL marks the page written to and unprotects the page, then retries the write and everything is back to normal.
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2019-10-23T22:55:16Z ArthurStrong: Hi all. When do you use cons lists with inner links? For circular lists? Graphs?
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2019-10-23T23:03:15Z pjb: Yes.
2019-10-23T23:04:21Z ArthurStrong: pjb: Yes for both?
2019-10-23T23:04:28Z pjb: And more.
2019-10-23T23:04:46Z ArthurStrong: pjb: can I have some examples? I'm trying to understand it better
2019-10-23T23:05:20Z pjb: skip lists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skip_list
2019-10-23T23:05:35Z ArthurStrong: pjb: thanks.
2019-10-23T23:05:47Z pjb: double linked lists, etc.
2019-10-23T23:09:11Z pjb: aeth: it's not too late to rename cl21 cl2100 and cl19 cl2019
2019-10-23T23:10:14Z no-defun-allowed: If someone makes a good CL21, surely that will be recognised as CL21 rather than that library.
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2019-10-23T23:19:23Z ArthurStrong: what CL do you use? I'm not trolling, just looking for a good compiler to start at...
2019-10-23T23:20:58Z ArthurStrong: SBCL?
2019-10-23T23:22:37Z ArthurStrong: Preferably with good Emacs support as IDE...
2019-10-23T23:22:41Z no-defun-allowed: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2018/02/quicklisp-implementation-stats-for-2017.html suggests SBCL is very common.
2019-10-23T23:23:16Z ArthurStrong: no-defun-allowed: thanks
2019-10-23T23:23:40Z no-defun-allowed: They all can use SLIME, which is probably the best IDE made with Emacs.
2019-10-23T23:23:49Z White_Flame: portacle is also a bundling together of sbcl, emacs, and slime
2019-10-23T23:24:15Z White_Flame: but if you're already good with emacs, you can probably just grab SBCL, quicklisp slime helper, and go from there
2019-10-23T23:24:58Z ArthurStrong: aha
2019-10-23T23:28:15Z White_Flame: no-defun-allowed: and hopefully people will call it CL-2.1 instead of CL21 :-P
2019-10-23T23:28:30Z White_Flame: at least in its *features* symbol or package name
2019-10-23T23:28:37Z no-defun-allowed: R3RCL
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2019-10-24T01:03:05Z ebrasca: What is "PLNs" ?
2019-10-24T01:04:07Z Bike: package local nicknames
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2019-10-24T04:36:07Z no-defun-allowed: What's the opposite of find-foo (other than (setf find-foo))?
2019-10-24T04:38:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-24T04:39:17Z ebrasca: Morning beach!
2019-10-24T04:43:00Z no-defun-allowed: get-foo/put-foo or get-foo/set-foo are also options, I suppose.
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2019-10-24T04:47:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach
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2019-10-24T05:16:00Z beach: I started reading my recently acquired copy of "Object-Oriented Programming: The CLOS Perspective", and in the first chapter, the author says that DEFMETHOD was supposed to be the main operator for defining generic functions, and that DEFGENERIC was meant to be used only when the method combination or the argument-precedence order needed to be altered.
2019-10-24T05:16:09Z beach: I think this idea shows the age of CLOS.  At the time, we were not so concerned about catching errors early.  We allowed for SETQ on a non-existing variable to create one too.
2019-10-24T05:16:17Z beach: The problem of the idea in the book is that a minor typo on the name of a method will not be noticed.
2019-10-24T05:16:19Z beach: Apparently, SBCL used to give a warning when a a generic function was implicitly defined as a result of a DEFMETHOD form, but that is no longer the case.  I think a warning is a very good idea in this case.
2019-10-24T05:18:34Z beach: In fact, I plan to always supply a DEFGENERIC form in my code.  Even just to get a decent name of the parameters when the signature is shown in some IDE is a good idea to supply it.
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2019-10-24T05:19:53Z beach: So my plan is to do it even for simple slot accessors.
2019-10-24T05:20:34Z beach: Sadly, SBCL no longer warns, so I am not informed when I forgot to supply the DEFGENERIC form.
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2019-10-24T05:25:38Z pillton: I think ABCL does that.
2019-10-24T05:31:55Z beach: Good!
2019-10-24T05:32:16Z pillton: I now create a protocols.lisp file to contain the generic functions and any base classes. This, in conjunction with packages.lisp, provides a good overview of the system and how the objects interact.
2019-10-24T05:32:50Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, I didn't get anything at the REPL.
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2019-10-24T05:35:11Z beach: pillton: yes, that's a very good idea.  I have called it generic-functions.lisp, but your idea is more general.
2019-10-24T05:36:15Z pillton: no-defun-allowed: ABCL must have changed. I remember having to add generic functions to make it happy.
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2019-10-24T05:36:18Z no-defun-allowed: I do the same thing here. Explained it to my teacher when he wondered where my documentation was. (Well, that and that methods aren't owned by classes in Lisp unlike the usual OOP languages.)
2019-10-24T05:39:30Z no-defun-allowed: (A surprisingly short discussion. I just said "say DatabaseClass1 and DatabaseClass2 both have a method called get_transaction in a hypothetical Python port of my program, they should produce the same results, so duplicating documentation isn't necessary. That's why I only have documentation in my DEFGENERIC forms.")
2019-10-24T05:42:51Z beach: Nice.
2019-10-24T05:43:38Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, it was a pleasant surprise.
2019-10-24T05:45:55Z aeth: beach: I agree. One of the reasons I use CL is because I don't need to use a linter to catch mistakes, which is a near-universal thing in dynamic languages.
2019-10-24T05:46:49Z aeth: (And the problem with that is that linters are things like that 10% that and 90% "you went 1 character over 90 characters in a line, which is unacceptable!")
2019-10-24T05:47:06Z aeth: s/like that 10%/like 10%/
2019-10-24T05:47:11Z beach: Great.  So consider this to be my lobbying attempt, direct to the maintainers of our Common Lisp implementations.
2019-10-24T05:48:26Z aeth: I don't see why it can't be a compiler global variable like *foo* if it's that controversial
2019-10-24T05:49:14Z beach: I am also contemplating how to implement it in SICL.  One way would be to have ADD-METHOD signal a warning before creating the generic function, but then the problem would go unnoticed forever after, once the generic-function is created.
2019-10-24T05:50:12Z beach: So I am thinking of a slot in the generic function, say IMPLICITP, so that each time a new method is added or replaced, a warning would be signaled, until the generic function has been created explicitly.
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2019-10-24T05:56:19Z beach: Actually, this topic would be a good one for a lightning talk at ELS.
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2019-10-24T05:58:04Z no-defun-allowed: For implementors with implementations that implement the MOP, maybe an objection is better suited.
2019-10-24T05:58:54Z beach: ?
2019-10-24T05:59:33Z no-defun-allowed: It was the only pun I could think of -- if the methods are standard objects.
2019-10-24T05:59:34Z no-defun-allowed cowers
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2019-10-24T06:23:22Z beach: It's too early in the day for me to understand puns.
2019-10-24T06:23:54Z no-defun-allowed: Sorry.
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2019-10-24T07:04:11Z Ober: cool sbcl understands the marriage operator
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2019-10-24T07:05:23Z Ober: nvm that would be bash
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2019-10-24T07:21:22Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL only understands civil UNIONs.
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2019-10-24T07:39:19Z Ober: sbcl --load foo.lisp -- $ARGS
2019-10-24T07:39:28Z Ober: so yeah, end of options beginning of arguments
2019-10-24T07:41:51Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, I think that's something programs parse themselves.
2019-10-24T07:48:10Z Ober: aye
2019-10-24T07:49:23Z no-defun-allowed: But the CL standard, again, only mentions civil UNIONs. Marriage operators are probably a SBCL-specific extension.
2019-10-24T07:49:45Z Ober: gotcha
2019-10-24T07:50:07Z Ober: so we need a bordeaux-pairing
2019-10-24T07:51:25Z no-defun-allowed: Could do, but CL is already ahead of other languages by supporting multiple inheritance; so it'd be a pity to leave support for polycules out. The cost for implementation is a bit higher though.
2019-10-24T07:53:53Z Ober: Does Pascal J. Bourguignon have an alias on #lisp?
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2019-10-24T07:55:35Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, pjb, but you should avoid summoning him where possible.
2019-10-24T07:56:18Z Ober: oh betelguise must be the other person I was thinking of. thanks
2019-10-24T07:56:27Z no-defun-allowed: (You may think that I just contradicted myself, but he /ignore-d me so it does nothing.)
2019-10-24T07:58:43Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: how'd you achieve that
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2019-10-24T07:59:30Z no-defun-allowed: Shinmera: are you sure you want to know?
2019-10-24T07:59:36Z Ober: ahh needed his help fixing his godemichet. it failed to build on allegro and lw
2019-10-24T08:01:17Z jackdaniel: ./win 27
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2019-10-24T08:08:06Z pjb: Ober: pjb
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2019-10-24T12:07:52Z thijso: Is there some way to extract the dependency graph of Lisp packages? From Quicklisp or asdf maybe?
2019-10-24T12:08:57Z Shinmera: no
2019-10-24T12:09:21Z Shinmera: packages don't have dependency beyond what symbols they might import.
2019-10-24T12:09:53Z Shinmera: unless you mean systems, in which case obviously yes or ASDF and quicklisp couldn't do anything.
2019-10-24T12:09:56Z thijso: Sorry, I was unclear. In asd files packages define :depends-on (sometimes)
2019-10-24T12:10:05Z thijso: Yeah, Shinmera, I meant systems
2019-10-24T12:10:25Z thijso: But is there a way to get that info out of either asdf or quicklisp?
2019-10-24T12:10:34Z thijso: Maybe I need to dive into ql code...
2019-10-24T12:10:42Z Shinmera: Sure.
2019-10-24T12:11:24Z Shinmera: asdf has system-depends-on, and in QL every dist has a text file that describes every system and its dependencies
2019-10-24T12:11:30Z Shinmera: the text file is called systems.txt
2019-10-24T12:11:31Z thijso: (and I need to get it into my head that they are called 'systems', not 'packages'; or at least, that packages are something else)
2019-10-24T12:11:42Z Shinmera: you can also get that info programmatically from the ql-dist functionality.
2019-10-24T12:12:01Z thijso: Ah, that sounds promising. Thanks, Shinmera
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2019-10-24T13:05:46Z jmercouris: Shinmera: does your deploy handle CFFI by bringing the shared libraries into the app bundle?
2019-10-24T13:06:51Z jmercouris: and if so, how does it let CFFI know where to look for the shared libraries?
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2019-10-24T13:20:19Z Xach: thijso: ql-dist:dependency-tree code might help
2019-10-24T13:21:32Z Xach: thijso: loading an asdf system can make many other things load to support it (at load time, not build time). those prerequisites are not always explicit.
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2019-10-24T13:30:45Z Shinmera: jmercouris: It has a deployment folder it copies the libraries into, yes.
2019-10-24T13:30:57Z Shinmera: jmercouris: It does the restoring by explicitly loading with the full path.
2019-10-24T13:31:36Z Shinmera: you're responsible for letting it know about implicit dependencies.
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2019-10-24T13:36:42Z thijso: thank, Xach, I'll take a look
2019-10-24T13:36:49Z thijso: s/thank/thanks/
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2019-10-24T13:46:21Z d4ryus: thijso: i guess you are looking for asdf/system:system-depends-on
2019-10-24T13:46:54Z d4ryus: thijso: forget what i said, i was reading old messages :/
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2019-10-24T13:59:28Z Xach: thijso: what will you do with the dependency graph when you have it?
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2019-10-24T14:12:45Z jmercouris: Shinmera: how can it know the full path when it is in an app bundle that could be placed anywhere on disk?
2019-10-24T14:13:49Z jmercouris: Shinmera: are you using argv0 or something?
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2019-10-24T14:27:48Z Shinmera: yes
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2019-10-24T14:35:31Z Shinmera: Deploy's code isn't large. Wouldn't be hard to figure out how it works.
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2019-10-24T14:50:42Z pfdietz: beach: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1818142
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2019-10-24T14:53:25Z beach: pfdietz: Oh, thanks!
2019-10-24T14:54:01Z pfdietz: no-defun-allowed:  I can see a case for putting docstrings in methods, to add to the general documentation at the defgeneric.  For example, document method-specific keyword parameters.
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2019-10-24T14:54:39Z pfdietz: It would be nice if the documentation were more structured, rather than just a string.
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2019-10-24T14:55:49Z beach: pfdietz: That's "easy".  We just have to use something other than CL:DOCUMENTATION.
2019-10-24T14:58:19Z jmercouris: Yeah, but then we'd also have to update our editors to respect the indentation and format of a markup string within a regular string...
2019-10-24T14:58:53Z jmercouris: that's been a huge wish of mine for a long time, I especially don't like the de-dent of the documentation string after one line
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2019-10-24T14:59:02Z beach: jmercouris: That's why I am suggesting using something different altogether.
2019-10-24T14:59:24Z jmercouris: beach: I guess I don't understand what you are suggesting to use
2019-10-24T14:59:26Z beach: jmercouris: Like a CLIM-based documentation browser/editor.
2019-10-24T14:59:35Z jmercouris: Ah, OK, I have no experience with this
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2019-10-24T14:59:59Z beach: It would be part of an IDE that would allow you to access the documentation from the code.
2019-10-24T15:00:20Z Shinmera: FWIW documentation-utils allows you to store more complicated documentation elsewhere and at the same time compile that info down to a regular docstring.
2019-10-24T15:00:22Z jmercouris: So not directly embedding the documentation, but storing it in an associated data structure?
2019-10-24T15:00:28Z Shinmera: I think one extension library does that.
2019-10-24T15:00:44Z pfdietz: jmercouris: yes
2019-10-24T15:00:45Z beach: jmercouris: There are some YouTube presentations of Concordia, the documentation system in Genera.
2019-10-24T15:01:05Z jmercouris: That would have to be a very smart system
2019-10-24T15:01:15Z jmercouris: Any edits done to the files outside of the system could mean a loss of documentation
2019-10-24T15:01:34Z pfdietz: Er, wait.
2019-10-24T15:01:44Z pfdietz: No, I meant storing it as non-string data structures in the code.
2019-10-24T15:01:58Z jmercouris: pfdietz: like what? s-exp?
2019-10-24T15:02:00Z beach: I think that's a terrible idea.
2019-10-24T15:02:20Z beach: I think it is a terrible idea to store documentation as a string with the code as well.
2019-10-24T15:02:37Z pfdietz: Right.  Bottom out as strings, but otherwise (for example) have an element documenting the meaning of parameters.
2019-10-24T15:03:12Z jmercouris: I like the documentation inline with the strings, it forces a succinctness
2019-10-24T15:03:25Z jmercouris: You can't ramble on and on, nor can you have massive functions with massive descriptions
2019-10-24T15:03:33Z Shinmera: Oh hey, here it is. https://github.com/sirherrbatka/documentation-utils-extensions
2019-10-24T15:03:49Z beach: For starters, the documentation should adapt to the language chosen by the programmer.
2019-10-24T15:04:03Z Shinmera: Eg: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/documentation-utils-extensions/blob/master/src/documentation.lisp
2019-10-24T15:04:13Z jmercouris: Shinmera: isn't that used by some documentation generator projects?
2019-10-24T15:04:27Z Shinmera: Hm?
2019-10-24T15:05:05Z jmercouris: Maybe it was only a mirage, I could have sworn...
2019-10-24T15:05:13Z pfdietz: Shinmera: interesting and watched.
2019-10-24T15:05:26Z Shinmera: documentation-utils and the above are systems to allow you to define documentation out-of-definition more easily.
2019-10-24T15:05:34Z Shinmera: It has nothing to do with documentation aggregators.
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2019-10-24T15:05:43Z jmercouris: I'm not talking about documentation aggregators
2019-10-24T15:05:54Z jmercouris: anyways, it was only a dream it seems, :-)
2019-10-24T15:07:42Z Shinmera: I also have a project that's semi-related. It adds multilinguality to the basic DOCUMENTATION interface.
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2019-10-24T16:05:18Z LdBeth: Like GNU gettext
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2019-10-24T18:20:48Z pjb: thijso: have a look at: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/tools/make-depends.lisp
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2019-10-24T20:34:54Z skidd0: hello, i'm trying to understand why sb-ext's timers are spamming a "WARNING: Startiong a poll(2) without a timeout while interrupts are disabled." message
2019-10-24T20:35:12Z skidd0: in SBCLs src, there's a unix.lisp file i'm looking at now
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2019-10-24T20:37:30Z skidd0: there's a note-dangerous-wait function that spits the warning
2019-10-24T20:37:40Z skidd0: which would be fine if it were just one warning
2019-10-24T20:38:05Z skidd0: but not the hundreds per second i'm seeing
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2019-10-24T20:48:49Z Xach: skidd0: I don't know how to help, sorry. What platform are you using? (like os and architecture)
2019-10-24T20:49:04Z skidd0: this is on an ubuntu VM
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2019-10-24T20:52:27Z skidd0: any idea where i might go poking around ?
2019-10-24T20:54:08Z Xach: skidd0: the #sbcl channel might have an idea.
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2019-10-24T20:54:21Z Xach: skidd0: are you just testing out timers or are you actually doing "real" stuff while using them?
2019-10-24T20:54:43Z skidd0: trying to do real stuff with them
2019-10-24T20:55:08Z skidd0: have a task that needs to occur at a time and recur every 24 hours
2019-10-24T20:55:28Z skidd0: could just make it an executable and use CRON
2019-10-24T20:56:10Z Xach: skidd0: i wonder if the real stuff is somehow setting up an environment that leads to the warnings, or if timers just don't really work right now (through neglect or bitrot or something). i don't know the answer.
2019-10-24T20:56:28Z Xach: i don't think timers would be useful if you always got warnings like that.
2019-10-24T20:57:12Z skidd0: that was my gut feeling
2019-10-24T20:57:18Z skidd0: it had a bad smell
2019-10-24T20:58:47Z skidd0: do you know of any other scheduler library?
2019-10-24T20:59:25Z mfiano2: If you don't need resolution, just set up a background thread to wait for 24h before submitting a task. It's fairly easy with lparallel if you aren't comfortable with working with threading code at a low level
2019-10-24T20:59:32Z thijso: Xach: I'm working on building an app using ECL on android, and loading the libraries/fas file/whatever is proving finicky. I've figured out that making smaller fas files helps, so I'm separating the systems. But that means I need to load them in the correct order. So I want to extract the deps during the make phase and produce a load.lisp file that does that in the right way. I think I've mostly figured out
2019-10-24T20:59:38Z thijso: how.
2019-10-24T21:00:14Z thijso: But there are other challenges, too, so my attention is abit divided... now it looks like usocket is not playing nice, so diving into gdb again, I fear...
2019-10-24T21:03:07Z thijso: thanks for the pointer, pjb, I'll have a look
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2019-10-24T21:09:40Z thijso: d4ryus: that is indeed exactly what I ended up using, "system-depends-on"
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2019-10-24T21:32:29Z Xach: thijso: interesting
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2019-10-24T21:38:43Z Ober: thanks for the help pjb, sorry I confused you with Jean-Phillippe Paradis
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2019-10-24T21:53:26Z trocado: hi! is it possible to delete an item from *features*?
2019-10-24T21:53:44Z trocado: (delete :item *features*) doesn't do it for some reason...
2019-10-24T21:55:54Z no-defun-allowed: `(setf *features* (remove :item *features*))`
2019-10-24T21:56:22Z no-defun-allowed: Even though DELETE may be destructive, you can't expect it to work "in place".
2019-10-24T21:58:53Z trocado: I see. I guess I don't understand how delete works...
2019-10-24T22:00:44Z no-defun-allowed: It behaves the same way as REMOVE, but it might modify list structure. In your case, it might not.
2019-10-24T22:00:45Z trocado: I see that the original sequence may be changed *or not*. Is that it?
2019-10-24T22:00:51Z mfiano2: DELETE is REMOVE except it may operate in-place at the implementation's choice.
2019-10-24T22:01:29Z mfiano2: For either, you can't assume the output will be equal to the input.
2019-10-24T22:02:21Z trocado: Ok, cool. Thanks!
2019-10-24T22:02:38Z mfiano2: Take a look at alexandria
2019-10-24T22:02:46Z White_Flame: consider (let ((a (list 1 2 3)))  (delete 1 a))
2019-10-24T22:02:48Z mfiano2: You might find something useful there if you look
2019-10-24T22:03:01Z no-defun-allowed: Say if you had the list (1 2 3) and you want to DELETE 1 from that, then you might just pop off the first cons. This doesn't change the list structure that you already have bound somewhere.
2019-10-24T22:03:09Z White_Flame: the call to DELETE would effectively return (cdr a), but it wouldn't change A
2019-10-24T22:03:33Z White_Flame half-beat no-defun-allowed to it
2019-10-24T22:03:33Z trocado: mfiano2: you mean deletef?
2019-10-24T22:03:38Z mfiano2: Yes
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2019-10-24T22:04:12Z mfiano2: Expand it to see how it works
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2019-10-24T22:04:42Z pjb: trocado: so, in short, functions like delete or remove are functional functions: you must use the result.  (setf *features* (delete feature *features*))
2019-10-24T22:05:06Z _death: another example is (let ((a (list 1))) (delete 1 a) a) .. delete can't set the A
2019-10-24T22:05:46Z _death: all it receives is the cons cell
2019-10-24T22:05:49Z pjb: trocado: in addition to the case indicated by White_Flame, notice that the empty list is represented by a SYMBOL, while non-empty lists are represented by a chain of CONS cells.  There's no way to change a CONS cell into a SYMBOL, when deleting the last element of the list.
2019-10-24T22:06:17Z White_Flame: a basic piece of understanding is that there is no such singular data item that is a "list". It's simply an ad-hoc chain of cons cells, and a variable simply points to one of those.  If you muddle with the linkage, it might not be properly pointing at the 'head' cell anymore
2019-10-24T22:06:25Z mfiano2: In contrast, you might not want to keep references around after a SORT. You might want to copy the structure first if you need them.
2019-10-24T22:06:43Z pjb: trocado: to be able to have a mutation API for list, you would have to wrap lists in an object, and use mutating methods on that object.
2019-10-24T22:11:04Z trocado: This is much clearer now. Thank you guys for all the info!
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2019-10-24T22:40:26Z aeth: I personally use a 0D array (i.e. (make-array '())) if I need to wrap a list in an object for mutation because it's the simplest object that fit that role. I might be the only one, though.
2019-10-24T22:41:19Z aeth: That only matters if you're crossing a function boundary, though. For a local variable or a global variable, you can just mutate it directly, like with *features*
2019-10-24T22:43:12Z aeth: Other candidates for a simple wrapper are a 1D array of length 1, or even the car of a cons with a nil cdr.
2019-10-24T22:44:21Z aeth: And some people might want a more explicit interface, using defclass or defstruct to define the container.
2019-10-24T22:44:54Z aeth: Personally, I would do this for a global variable. (Obviously, you can't change what *features* is, though.)
2019-10-24T22:48:47Z pjb: aeth: personally, I use a standard-object of a subclass of standard-class, because it let me dispatch my generic functions to different methods for lists than for vectors and other classes.
2019-10-24T22:49:27Z pjb: aeth: and while you're wrapping lists, you can add slots to optimize some operations, such as length, append, etc.
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2019-10-24T23:05:38Z aeth: pjb: Yes, that (or a struct with a :type in its slot for potential compiler efficiency, although if you want efficiency, then you probably shouldn't be using a global) is the more formal way of doing it and good for globals, but if you're just passing something as an argument to an essentially internal function, a simpler container might be preferable. It's a matter of taste, really. Imo.
2019-10-24T23:06:49Z aeth: (And actually a struct might be the most efficient way to do it altogether, although it probably doesn't really matter.)
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2019-10-24T23:11:18Z aeth: I'm guessing that the most proper way (i.e. a good public API) is probably defclass, and the most efficient way is probably defstruct (although the fixed costs might not outweigh the performance gain of having known types), and the simplest way is probably simply reusing a 0D array, a 1-length 1D array, or a cons.
2019-10-24T23:11:48Z aeth: s/might not outweigh/might outweigh/
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2019-10-25T00:25:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: minion: memo for jmercouris: on macOS, there's also this way to specify library paths, if you have an application bundle: https://wincent.com/wiki/%40executable_path%2C_%40load_path_and_%40rpath
2019-10-25T00:25:23Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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2019-10-25T00:28:32Z Josh_2: Is there a way to get ecl to compile for a different platform than the one being developed on?
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2019-10-25T03:07:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-25T03:28:56Z LdBeth: Hello beach
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2019-10-25T03:31:43Z asarch: One very very very stupid question: as you know, you can "dump" the current core actually runnin in SBCL into an "executable" file, so, is there any way to "strip" this new core file in order that it could only have the essential to work?
2019-10-25T03:32:29Z beach: asarch: The problem is in the definition of "essential".
2019-10-25T03:32:41Z asarch: Bingo!
2019-10-25T03:32:57Z asarch: That's the reason of my question
2019-10-25T03:33:41Z beach: Unfortunately, only you, the end user, knows what is essential.
2019-10-25T03:34:26Z LdBeth: Like most lisps SBCL has to parts: lisp kernel and heap image
2019-10-25T03:34:53Z LdBeth: The heap image is the “essential”
2019-10-25T03:35:15Z LdBeth: And the kernel can be reused
2019-10-25T03:35:32Z asarch: It happens I am learning Assembly Language and I was wondering what would be the "essential" of a binary file of SBCL, the smallest thing possible so a binary could work
2019-10-25T03:35:59Z White_Flame: I believe the term "tree shaker" relates to trimming down an image to only what's directly referenced. some other lisps have that
2019-10-25T03:36:13Z asarch: Kernel?
2019-10-25T03:36:24Z White_Flame: ( or some other CL implementations)
2019-10-25T03:36:52Z LdBeth: If you’re talking about making a minimal distribution of your app, then just ignore what I’ve said and contacts people at LispWorks
2019-10-25T03:37:10Z White_Flame: the only thing a binary needs is a main that immediately exist and doesn't do anything
2019-10-25T03:37:14Z White_Flame: *exits
2019-10-25T03:37:27Z White_Flame: as far as the OS considers it to be runnable
2019-10-25T03:38:42Z LdBeth: White_Flame: you can no op and the OS will segfault your program :)
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2019-10-25T03:42:09Z asarch: I see
2019-10-25T03:43:21Z mfiano2: Hi everyone. If anyone is interested, I recently launched a Mattermost instance at https://chat.lisp.cl to provide a free chat platform for Lisp developers, due to some concerns some people had about IRC and Discord where most of the live discussions reside. Anyone is free to join and use it as they wish (for example, you can create and manage your own team and sets of channels for collaborative works), or just use the default one.
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2019-10-25T03:48:44Z Ober: free?
2019-10-25T03:49:39Z no-defun-allowed: Should do.
2019-10-25T03:58:59Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, mlep seems to be incapable of creating Markov chains with somewhat large sizes (926 symbols, order 3) because it uses an array which is huge but sparse. Are there any libraries for sparse arrays I could hack in?
2019-10-25T04:00:05Z beach: You can try using a hash table.
2019-10-25T04:00:22Z no-defun-allowed: I suppose I could.
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2019-10-25T04:11:18Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, it uses displacement too. Still possible though to replace.
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2019-10-25T04:18:05Z pjb: minion memo for asarch: (progn (sb-ext:gc :full) (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "foo" :executable t))
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2019-10-25T04:21:28Z Ober: :full t
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2019-10-25T04:32:52Z no-defun-allowed: Pretty sure s-l-a-d performs a GC before it dumps, too.
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2019-10-25T04:39:26Z beach: It probably won't address the question that asarch had anyway.
2019-10-25T04:41:36Z no-defun-allowed: Well, the "essential" of a Common Lisp implementation is a bit fuzzy to me. There are legitimate uses for the compiler at runtime (COMPILE) and it may or may not be useful to keep debugging information around.
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2019-10-25T04:49:00Z beach: Exactly.
2019-10-25T04:49:20Z aeth: It's a hard problem that will eventually be solved, but probably only after there are enough applications first
2019-10-25T04:50:54Z no-defun-allowed: (I think I got this from LiSP) And it is not trivial to determine whether some code will use these features or not. I can compile with (funcall (find-symbol (read-from-string)) nil '(lambda ...)) for example, but it is not likely the tree shaker would know that.
2019-10-25T04:51:05Z no-defun-allowed: read-from-string -> read-line
2019-10-25T04:51:16Z aeth: I think resource sharing in a desktop environment where you could have half a dozen running CL applications is more important than treeshaking to make one binary smaller.
2019-10-25T04:51:45Z no-defun-allowed: If you pick a subset of CL to run with, that would work, but then you limit the libraries you can use.
2019-10-25T04:52:08Z aeth: Well, yeah, what you'd probably have is a situation where you need to use a subset or else essentially nothing gets treeshaken
2019-10-25T04:52:14Z beach: no-defun-allowed: It is known as an "undecidable" problem.
2019-10-25T04:52:30Z no-defun-allowed: That's the word, thanks.
2019-10-25T04:52:34Z beach: So it won't ever be "solved".
2019-10-25T04:53:12Z aeth: beach: Well, it could simply disable the treeshaker when certain things like read-from-string are used.
2019-10-25T04:53:19Z aeth: assuming the list isn't too long
2019-10-25T04:53:29Z no-defun-allowed: I recall talk on #sicl about someone who was deciding what to put in a subset of CL called CL-R -- maybe that is useful.
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2019-10-25T04:53:59Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: well, a subset is more of a whitelist than a blacklist, you'd ideally want the latter in a treeshaker
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2019-10-25T04:57:07Z aeth: although idk maybe there's something that makes it impossible
2019-10-25T04:57:44Z pjb: beach: no, but it's the best that can be done with the existing.
2019-10-25T04:59:00Z pjb: also, we could add a (mapc 'delete-package (copy-list (list-all-packages))) before the gc, if we keep a reference to the main function.
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2019-10-25T07:24:24Z thijso: minion memo for Josh_2: Yes, you can cross compile for a different target with ECL. Take a look at the examples in ecl, EQL and/or EQL5-android. Or my work in progress: https://github.com/thijs/android-ecl-bootstrap which builds arm64 Android apps on amd64 (or whatever) Ubuntu
2019-10-25T07:24:53Z thijso: hmmm... minion memo doesn't work like that?
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2019-10-25T07:32:00Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for thijso: you forgot the colon
2019-10-25T07:32:00Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell thijso when he/she/it next speaks.
2019-10-25T07:32:08Z jackdaniel: thijso: ^
2019-10-25T07:36:38Z thijso: Ah, thanks, jackdaniel
2019-10-25T07:36:38Z minion: thijso, memo from jackdaniel: you forgot the colon
2019-10-25T07:36:46Z thijso: minion: memo for Josh_2: Yes, you can cross compile for a different target with ECL. Take a look at the examples in ecl, EQL and/or EQL5-android. Or my work in progress: https://github.com/thijs/android-ecl-bootstrap which builds arm64 Android apps on amd64 (or whatever) Ubuntu
2019-10-25T07:36:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Josh_2 when he/she/it next speaks.
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2019-10-25T11:29:47Z lxbarbosa: boy, why are most languages so "minimal" in conditionals... no: when, unless, when-if, cond...
2019-10-25T11:30:13Z lxbarbosa: at most a if-else and a switch
2019-10-25T11:31:01Z bitmapper: i find that's generally just C family languages
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2019-10-25T11:42:42Z lxbarbosa: bitmapper: most languages are c-like...
2019-10-25T11:42:54Z bitmapper: not really
2019-10-25T11:43:08Z bitmapper: there's so many non algol family languages out there
2019-10-25T11:44:03Z lxbarbosa: yeah, and most projects just ignore those :D
2019-10-25T11:44:58Z bitmapper: never really stopped me
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2019-10-25T11:50:57Z lxbarbosa: what are those languages? can't remind
2019-10-25T11:52:37Z bitmapper: ocaml, haskell, standard ml, (lisp, of course), idris, Shen, etc
2019-10-25T11:54:26Z ggole: Prolog
2019-10-25T11:54:46Z Shinmera: [your obscure language here]
2019-10-25T11:54:59Z bitmapper: ocaml and haskell aren't really obscure
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2019-10-25T11:55:09Z Shinmera: good thing I didn't say so then
2019-10-25T11:55:16Z flip214: what's "when-if"? I know WHEN and IF, but as one (language) keyword?
2019-10-25T11:55:56Z flip214: lxbarbosa: IF-ELSE is enough to build all others (which becomes much easier if you have macros, of course ;)
2019-10-25T11:56:22Z bitmapper: i mean, lambda is enough to build all the others ;)
2019-10-25T11:56:56Z lxbarbosa: flip214: indeed, still, all those "if" are so cryptic.
2019-10-25T11:57:26Z lxbarbosa: while on lisp, its easier to know what it is doing...
2019-10-25T11:57:28Z flip214: bitmapper: LAMBDA won't give you an conditional
2019-10-25T11:57:46Z bitmapper: i mean, you can though
2019-10-25T11:58:16Z Shinmera: flip214: it does by way of apply and optional arg.
2019-10-25T11:58:50Z Shinmera: err wait, that won't work right, nevermind
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2019-10-25T11:59:44Z flip214: Shinmera: you can get by via a conditional move (CMOV), but that's a conditional in the CPU
2019-10-25T12:00:09Z flip214: wait, there was a transpiler using only MOVs as well... how did that work for conditionals, again?
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2019-10-25T12:00:39Z _death: you can represent a boolean as two functions.. so (> 1 2) would return the function that chooses the false function and (< 1 2) would return the function that chooses the true function
2019-10-25T12:00:46Z flip214: https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/movfuscator
2019-10-25T12:01:01Z flip214: _death: but how would you choose between these two functions?
2019-10-25T12:01:03Z Shinmera: flip214: a boolean is just a numerical value, which you can use as an offset to an address.
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2019-10-25T12:02:24Z bitmapper: there's also the whole lambda calculus thing
2019-10-25T12:03:36Z flip214: page 40 of https://raw.githubusercontent.com/xoreaxeaxeax/movfuscator/master/slides/domas_2015_the_movfuscator.pdf
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2019-10-25T12:04:06Z _death: bitmapper: indeed
2019-10-25T12:04:20Z _death: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus#Logic_and_predicates
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2019-10-25T12:20:51Z _death: ISZERO there acts kinda like what Shinmera described.. 0 would choose the second value and positive integers the first
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2019-10-25T12:27:26Z _death: the dichotomy is whether something is applied or not
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2019-10-25T12:48:31Z _death: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1527#1527
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2019-10-25T16:22:10Z thijso: Does anybody have any pointers for me where to start looking when I get the error: C-INLINE: Variable code exceeds number of arguments ??
2019-10-25T16:22:45Z thijso: This is indeed a function that does (c-inline ...), but looking at my code (and examples of other working code already there) I don't really see what the error could be...
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2019-10-25T16:24:02Z Shinmera: sounds like very specifically ECL stuff
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2019-10-25T16:56:48Z thijso: Yeah, it's ECL... I'll ask there
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2019-10-25T17:18:32Z markasoftware: How is (set) a function and not a macro? Won't its argument evaluate to its value?
2019-10-25T17:19:39Z markasoftware: eg, (setq foo "bar") followed by (set foo "lipsum") ... doesn't the second one simplify to (set "bar" "lipsum") ?
2019-10-25T17:20:06Z Xach: markasoftware: yes. which is invalid.
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2019-10-25T17:20:16Z Xach: markasoftware: the first argument must evaluate to a symbol, not a string.
2019-10-25T17:20:31Z markasoftware: oh, so (set 'foo "lipsum") is correct?
2019-10-25T17:20:50Z markasoftware: thanks!
2019-10-25T17:20:54Z Xach: markasoftware: yes
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2019-10-25T17:46:38Z _death: also note that defvar/defparameter usefully return the variable name, so if you got the value wrong, you can (set * new-form)
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2019-10-25T17:48:37Z Xach: I don't think I've ever used set in a real thing.
2019-10-25T17:50:57Z _death: Naggum lamented that SETF wasn't renamed SET.. cost of backwards compatibility
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2019-10-25T18:22:17Z pjb: markasoftware: (set 'foo x) = set quote foo x  = (setq foo x)
2019-10-25T18:22:42Z pjb: a place is a form, so set form (car x) y) = (setf (car x) y)
2019-10-25T18:23:21Z pjb: notice that (setf foo x) is compiled as (setq foo x), and if foo is a symbol macro, (setq foo x) is compiled as (setf the-expansion-of-foo x).
2019-10-25T18:23:49Z pjb: also, it's  nice that set is a function: (mapc 'set '(*a* *b* *c*) '
2019-10-25T18:23:53Z pjb: (1 2 3))
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2019-10-25T18:25:08Z _death: there also used to be a SETQQ operator.. so you could (setqq foo bar) instead of (setq foo 'bar)
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2019-10-25T18:34:38Z fe[nl]ix: also SETQCAR so you could (setqcar foo bar) instead of (setq foo (car bar))
2019-10-25T18:34:40Z fe[nl]ix: and so on
2019-10-25T18:35:57Z Xach: no
2019-10-25T18:39:09Z _death: guessing that was a joke :).. but setqq was real
2019-10-25T18:39:44Z pjb: _death: indeed, setqcar is rplaca
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2019-10-25T18:39:55Z _death: pjb: that would be setcar (elisp)
2019-10-25T18:41:59Z _death: setqq was in BBN Lisp.. which also had PROG2 take only two forms, and described PROGN as an extension to it...
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2019-10-25T19:21:11Z aeth: set might be taken, but set! is still available as a name
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2019-10-25T19:50:52Z matijja: Hello!
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2019-10-25T19:51:07Z matijja: Is there any way to redirect *query-io* into a file? (in bash script)
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2019-10-25T19:54:56Z phoe: matijja: you want to read input from a file or output queries into a file? *QUERY-IO* is a bidirectional stream
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2019-10-25T19:56:42Z matijja: I want redirect *query-io* output into a file. Like this: sbcl --eval '(format *query-io* "foo")' &> /tmp/foo
2019-10-25T19:57:18Z matijja: With which descriptor is represented *query-io*? I know stdout and stderr, but never heard for "queryout"...
2019-10-25T19:57:56Z phoe: matijja: none, *query-io* has no unix analog
2019-10-25T19:58:07Z phoe: analogue*
2019-10-25T19:58:53Z phoe: you will need to create a new bidirectional stream that dumps output into a file and bind *query-io* to it
2019-10-25T20:01:28Z matijja: I dont understand, how text written in *query-io* come into my terminal which works in unix way.
2019-10-25T20:02:02Z phoe: if you run your Lisp implementation in a terminal, then
2019-10-25T20:02:07Z phoe: the Lisp implementation binds it to either stdout or stderr
2019-10-25T20:02:31Z phoe: but the value of query-io can be any bidirectional Lisp stream in general.
2019-10-25T20:02:35Z p_l: *query-io* is linked to standard output, because unix has no query channel
2019-10-25T20:02:49Z p_l: but some systems *do* have one
2019-10-25T20:03:24Z matijja: Yes. And I want redirect both (stdout and stderr) into a file. But doesn't works. Is there any other unix descriptor in unix?
2019-10-25T20:04:38Z scymtym: if SBCL is running in a terminal (emulator), *QUERY-IO* is connected to the (pseudo) terminal device. that's why it is not affected by the redirection
2019-10-25T20:06:19Z p_l: you can also rebind it in code
2019-10-25T20:07:22Z matijja: So, it writes directly to /dev/tty* device.
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2019-10-25T20:08:58Z aeth: Oh, unrelated mystery solved. So I launch applications from a terminal and some of them are very poorly written so I &> /dev/null instead of > /dev/null to capture stderr. But one of them is so poorly written that even that sometimes doesn't work. I guess that's why.
2019-10-25T20:08:58Z matijja: p_l: Do you know any system which have query channel?
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2019-10-25T20:09:36Z pjb: matijja: (let ((*query-io* (make-two-way-stream *standard-input* *standard-output*))) (do-something))
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2019-10-25T20:10:51Z pjb: matijja: (with-open-file (out "/tmp/out" :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :create :if-exists :append) (let ((*query-io* (make-two-way-stream (make-string-input-stream "") out))) (do-something)))
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2019-10-25T20:11:53Z pjb: matijja: but of course, since *query-io* should address a human being, this is not something you want to do at all!!!
2019-10-25T20:12:40Z matijja: You have a point.
2019-10-25T20:14:03Z p_l: matijja: VMS, among other things
2019-10-25T20:14:03Z pjb: matijja: of course, there may be a bug in the code, that use *query-io* instead of some other stream…
2019-10-25T20:14:05Z aeth: pjb: *query-io* should address an intelligent agent. Humans are just a subset.
2019-10-25T20:14:19Z pjb: intelligent AND interactive!
2019-10-25T20:14:32Z phoe: pjb: you mean like Siri or Cortana
2019-10-25T20:15:02Z pjb: Of course, if you can open such a stream.
2019-10-25T20:15:21Z phoe: (make-text-to-speech-two-way-stream "Hey, Siri,  The value NIL is not of type NUMBER. ")
2019-10-25T20:16:01Z pjb: (read-line (make-text-to-speech-two-way-stream "Hey, Siri,  The value NIL is not of type NUMBER. ")) -> "Then take 42 instead!"
2019-10-25T20:20:07Z aeth: technically speaking, a wrapper function should handle appending "Hey Siri," to everything
2019-10-25T20:22:48Z aeth: or actually, that should be part of the stream
2019-10-25T20:23:10Z _death: heh.. I just evaluated (let ((*standard-output* (make-instance 'espeak-output-stream))) (room)) .. great
2019-10-25T20:24:22Z aeth: how did you get espeak-output-stream?
2019-10-25T20:25:12Z _death: I wrote it.. the least trivial method is (defmethod sb-gray:stream-write-string ((stream espeak-output-stream) string &optional start end) (let ((sub (subseq string start end))) (sb-ext:run-program "espeak" (list sub) :search t) string))
2019-10-25T20:26:15Z aeth: You should make it a library because there's probably some use for it. Using trivial-gray-streams instead, of course.
2019-10-25T20:26:28Z aeth: Several options for running a program including two in UIOP
2019-10-25T20:26:36Z _death: well, if I find an actual use for it I may write a library :)
2019-10-25T20:27:13Z _death: it's also easy to use mozilla's deepspeech to write a deepspeech-input-stream
2019-10-25T20:28:33Z aeth: _death: pair it with a speach recognition library and now you have your own AI assistant
2019-10-25T20:28:49Z _death: aeth: deepspeech is for speech recognition
2019-10-25T20:29:16Z aeth: ah, my bad, I read that as output-stream instead of input-stream
2019-10-25T20:29:17Z aeth: parse error
2019-10-25T20:32:24Z aeth: I wonder what mycroft uses, isn't that one open source?
2019-10-25T20:33:23Z aeth: https://mycroft.ai/initiatives/
2019-10-25T20:33:59Z aeth: I think that might be all you need. heh. Written in Python.
2019-10-25T20:34:19Z _death: the cool thing about deepspeech is that they released the model (2 gigs.. the initial version at least)
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2019-10-25T20:35:05Z _death: this mycroft page has it in collaborations.. so maybe it uses their model
2019-10-25T20:35:25Z _death: ah, there's a Data section
2019-10-25T20:36:52Z aeth: There's nothing stopping a Common Lisp initiative in this area.
2019-10-25T20:38:25Z _death: if CL had an open state-of-the-art NLP package..
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2019-10-25T20:39:15Z p_l: a lot of the work isn't in NLP, or at least speech processing doesn't really fall there
2019-10-25T20:41:13Z _death: sure.. I suppose everything is nowadays reduced to neural network weights
2019-10-25T20:43:19Z p_l: I mean that speech processing doesn't really do much to understand the language, it's the next layer that does
2019-10-25T20:43:31Z p_l: and even then it's not really necessary to have very complex one
2019-10-25T20:44:28Z p_l: n.b. the first version of Google Translate had, afaik, no NLP except basic ngram generation
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2019-10-25T20:45:31Z _death: yeah.. and if the domain is constrained it's also easy (I'm reminded of that CD track selection parser in PAIP)
2019-10-25T20:46:17Z p_l: _death: PAIP had a parser for elementary school level math assignments
2019-10-25T20:46:19Z _death: the ngram stuff is just feature engineering
2019-10-25T20:46:58Z _death: p_l: yeah, STUDENT.. but that was mostly simple pattern matching
2019-10-25T20:47:19Z _death: the CD track selection defined a grammar
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2019-10-25T20:53:11Z _death: a python gensim library for CL could be cool.. I'm guessing grammarly, ravenpack etc. have tons of stuff like that.. proprietary
2019-10-25T20:53:48Z p_l: quite probable
2019-10-25T20:54:40Z p_l: also, for anyone interested in using TensorFlow from CL - the C api is pretty simple, but is directed only at *running* models, not creating them. And interfacing with the C++ API... I actually haven't managed to make it link with C++ code yet
2019-10-25T20:57:10Z _death: recently they killed keras.. and now it's tf.keras.. I was reminded of the old lispm jokes.. As of next Tuesday, KERAS will be replaced by TF.KERAS.  Please update your programs.
2019-10-25T20:57:54Z no-defun-allowed: Welcome to Python-land.
2019-10-25T20:59:15Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: I have "an OpenCL backend for Petalisp" on my to-do list, which is probably an important component of artificial guesswork systems.
2019-10-25T21:00:06Z no-defun-allowed: *artificial gut-feeling is the technical term, sorry.
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2019-10-25T21:04:16Z no-defun-allowed: But I also have "don't fail exams" and other things on that list, which has set me back a bit.
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2019-10-25T21:10:46Z no-defun-allowed: Then, looking at the Keras documentation, it shouldn't be hard to recreate the layers and all that.
2019-10-25T21:10:51Z no-defun-allowed: Quite a few boil down to (α #'some-function the-last-layer).
2019-10-25T21:14:45Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: well, I'm going to be writing a to-SPIRV compiler with Vulkan shaders in mind at some point (maybe 3 years from now?) but I think OpenCL uses SPIRV now, too...
2019-10-25T21:18:31Z no-defun-allowed: I'm too stupid, I just use oclcl and some templates to compile Petalisp IR.
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2019-10-25T21:28:13Z aeth: Well, my approach is probably very different than most for GPU compute so I think I can get something done in a reasonable amount of time. I wouldn't mind directly coding in essentially just an IR, leaving a more Lispy language as someone else's problem to figure out.
2019-10-25T21:29:38Z aeth: And I haven't looked into it yet, but afaik, just the way GPU APIs work, the best you can kind of do is a statically typed language with type inference (i.e. no need for type declarations most of the time), rather than a truly dynamically typed language, so no matter what you're going to get some different code on CPU vs. on GPU.
2019-10-25T21:30:52Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, running arbitrary CL functions on the GPU is going to be annoying. I'm just sticking to floats for now.
2019-10-25T21:31:21Z no-defun-allowed: And, well, functions that only have number functions, LET and DO pretty much.
2019-10-25T21:32:16Z aeth: I mean, you could probably find a way to get a "true" Lisp (maybe not a full CL) on a GPU, but why?
2019-10-25T21:32:28Z aeth: There's only a very limited set of things that make sense to do efficiently on one.
2019-10-25T21:33:05Z aeth: And personally, I don't care about having the code look identically on both CPU and GPU because the platforms are very different, so there'd have to be too much magic and potential inefficiency on one of the two
2019-10-25T21:33:08Z p_l: you might get a reasonable *Lisp on one
2019-10-25T21:33:11Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed. And those are usually things with floats and mapping (α) and reduction (β)
2019-10-25T21:33:27Z p_l: and of course, it's kinda the same thing as using the DSP package on TI Explorer;)
2019-10-25T21:42:23Z aeth: p_l: I'm not sure about the details of *Lisp, but it's possible that a high-end CPU is a better fit for the semantics of a highly-parallel Lisp like that, especially since you can get 64+64 cores this year for servers (or 64 cores in HEDT, perhaps early next year) from AMD
2019-10-25T21:42:33Z aeth: GPUs are a very specific kind of parallel
2019-10-25T21:42:57Z aeth: although I mostly know the graphics pipeline, so idk how much has been turned into general purpose with GPGPU compute
2019-10-25T21:43:01Z p_l: aeth: *Lisp ran on similar kind of parallel - very dumb "processors" running in arrays
2019-10-25T21:43:13Z aeth: Makes sense, then. Linear algebra isn't new.
2019-10-25T21:43:28Z aeth: We are kind of in an era where applying linear algebra is the hottest thing, though.
2019-10-25T21:43:37Z LdBeth: aeth: star lisp views tensor as a special data structure that can be operated within lisp
2019-10-25T21:44:19Z p_l: aeth: more "throwing data at randomly wired neural network" and using resulting predictive algorithm, without considering what data went in
2019-10-25T21:44:49Z p_l: I've heard of targeting algorithms that were ridiculously untrained on negative results
2019-10-25T21:45:09Z aeth: p_l: no, it's not just ML... pretty much every hot field (e.g. graphics) is all about applied linear algebra... and it's mostly because of GPGPU, but also almost every "recent" extension to CPUs (e.g. AVX) is similar in scope, too.
2019-10-25T21:45:35Z aeth: (I mean, everything but the web, I guess... but even in the web you have WebGL etc.)
2019-10-25T21:46:00Z p_l: aeth: graphics were always linear algebra heavy. Can't call it "new" when it's what, 40 years by now?
2019-10-25T21:46:19Z p_l: and vector extensions on CPUs go back to 1960s
2019-10-25T21:47:05Z aeth: p_l: nothing is really new if you go back far enough... but things come and go and right now applied linear algebra in general is very hot
2019-10-25T21:47:13Z aeth: I guess combined with statistics.
2019-10-25T21:47:14Z p_l: having them in small form factor isn't new either, it's just that it's pretty easy way to put more speed by requiring explicit parallel code at instruction level
2019-10-25T21:47:27Z p_l: we have a case of glut of data and people wanting to use it
2019-10-25T21:47:34Z p_l: GDPR started to make it slightly different
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2019-10-25T21:47:44Z p_l: by turning certain kinds of data into radioactive waste
2019-10-25T21:48:00Z aeth: p_l: On the whole explicit parallel thing... it's just that in the 80s and early 90s, you only went ultra-parallel for supercomputers. Now everyone has hit that wall that supercomputers hit earlier.
2019-10-25T21:48:43Z p_l: aeth: vector extensions on desktop CPUs are mid 1990s, with important source of the push being MPEG-1/2 encoding/decoding
2019-10-25T21:49:24Z p_l: el-cheapo PCs are 1997 for vector units
2019-10-25T21:49:50Z aeth: p_l: and it's a trend that has continued, most recently with AVX-512 slowly entering the mainstream (not quite there yet... maybe in 3 years or so)
2019-10-25T21:50:10Z p_l: aeth: important function of AVX-512 is market segmentation
2019-10-25T21:50:11Z aeth: p_l: It's not that linear algebra hardware is new, it's that linear algebra hardware continues to improve, unlike the rest
2019-10-25T21:50:15Z _death: there's also the HPC community, which apparently is at a bit of disconnect from the "big data" communities.. there was, e.g., this rant https://www.dursi.ca/post/hpc-is-dying-and-mpi-is-killing-it.html .. that cray language Chapel took ideas from *Lisp.. maybe it's worth stealing some back
2019-10-25T21:52:04Z aeth: p_l: barring a revolutionary change, perhaps via a switch away from silicon, we're increasingly using what are basically just parallel linear algebra machines.
2019-10-25T21:52:15Z p_l: _death: a lot of "big data" is... much less capable than HPC community, thus the disconnect
2019-10-25T21:52:44Z p_l: also, "big data" has more in common with IBM SORT programming than anything else
2019-10-25T21:52:51Z _death: p_l: that link considers this.. it's written by an HPC guy
2019-10-25T21:54:20Z p_l: _death: yeah. And probably that's why he is a bit too competent to see how incompetent big data is ;)
2019-10-25T21:54:45Z _death: p_l: his conclusion is that both communities have something to learn
2019-10-25T21:55:24Z p_l: and ultimately he points at HPC-specific stuff (Chapel), and that certain succesful tools are things that make it harder to get better
2019-10-25T21:55:29Z p_l: which happens in big data too
2019-10-25T21:56:07Z _death: yeah.. but why isn't Chapel a Lisp?
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2019-10-25T21:56:47Z p_l: because the people who are the target feel unsafe without FORTRAN
2019-10-25T21:56:50Z _death: I mean, it doesn't look like very much like Fortran or C..
2019-10-25T21:57:08Z _death: and for C there's that Unified Parallel C
2019-10-25T21:57:57Z p_l: _death: the gateway drug to other languages was Python because someone compiled all the not really understood fortran code into numpy
2019-10-25T21:58:02Z _death: I remember there are also some Lisp HPC guys
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2019-10-25T21:58:49Z _death: there's also ftl :)
2019-10-25T21:59:24Z _death: may need an update for more recent fortran
2019-10-25T21:59:52Z _death: and then there are new libraries like MAGICL
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2019-10-25T22:09:10Z skidd0: is using an early return in a function a code smell
2019-10-25T22:09:28Z LdBeth: No
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2019-10-25T22:13:31Z skidd0: thanks
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2019-10-25T23:47:47Z mfiano2: You might want to use an explicit RETURN-FROM depending on how it's going to be used. Returning from NIL is sometimes ambiguous when user code is involved
2019-10-25T23:56:40Z flubberhead: hello, I have written a small function for an assignment to print odd numbers less than the input in a triangle. Input needs to be an odd integer. I have tried to make test cases to cover even numbers, or strings and tat one works. However, my integer condition crashes the function instead of printing an error message. Here is a paste to the function: https://pastebin.com/L7cnKd4L
2019-10-25T23:57:37Z no-defun-allowed: clhs oddp
2019-10-25T23:57:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_evenpc.htm
2019-10-25T23:57:53Z no-defun-allowed: Check for integerp before oddp.
2019-10-25T23:58:05Z no-defun-allowed: And also please fix your whitespace.
2019-10-25T23:59:41Z flubberhead: Thank you! And I'll work on the whitespace sorry .
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2019-10-26T01:46:00Z chuculain:  minion: registration, please?
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2019-10-26T03:01:47Z markasoftware: so, i have read that packages, interns, etc are all things that are only relevant duing the (read) step. But functions, like (intern) and (use-package) and (in-package), affect this. So how does the reader evaluate these functions before (eval)?
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2019-10-26T03:15:20Z no-defun-allowed: When loading a file, the forms are read one at a time, so (in-package :foo) 'bar will change the package to foo, then produce foo::bar.
2019-10-26T03:15:43Z no-defun-allowed: When compiling a file, then we need to get into eval-when which allows code to choose when it is evaluated.
2019-10-26T03:15:45Z no-defun-allowed: clhs eval-when
2019-10-26T03:15:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm
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2019-10-26T03:33:01Z pjb: markasoftware: read chapter 2.
2019-10-26T03:33:38Z pjb: notably: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_b.htm
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2019-10-26T03:37:39Z no-defun-allowed: pjb: You're not helping.
2019-10-26T03:38:25Z no-defun-allowed: When compiling, EVAL usually isn't called except in EVAL-WHEN forms.
2019-10-26T03:38:46Z no-defun-allowed: When loading, each form is read one at a time, with their side effects happening after each.
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2019-10-26T04:25:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-26T04:27:23Z beach: no-defun-allowed: The number of dangling participles per time unit is impressive. :)
2019-10-26T04:29:31Z beach: markasoftware: Do you mean "how is it even possible for READ to evaluate something?", or do you mean "at which point does READ evaluate these forms?"
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2019-10-26T04:40:04Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I seem to repeat specifiers like "now" and "each" at the beginning and end of words frequently, but that's impressive to me too.
2019-10-26T04:40:53Z no-defun-allowed: And also, good morning beach!
2019-10-26T04:41:14Z beach: I see.  But that's not considered a grammar error, whereas a dangling participle is.
2019-10-26T04:41:34Z beach: Granted, IRC is not considered formal writing.
2019-10-26T04:42:49Z no-defun-allowed: So "EVAL usually when compiling isn't called except in EVAL-WHEN forms" would be more correct?
2019-10-26T04:43:16Z no-defun-allowed: Oops, "EVAL usually isn't called when compiling, except in EVAL-WHEN forms"
2019-10-26T04:43:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is something like this the typical way to implement a continue restart? https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1531#1531
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2019-10-26T04:44:09Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Avoid the participle altogether: When a file is compiled...
2019-10-26T04:44:38Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
2019-10-26T04:47:19Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: That looks strange.  the RESTART-CASES parameter is not used.
2019-10-26T04:49:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sorry, it's vestigial code
2019-10-26T04:49:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I updated the paste
2019-10-26T04:51:44Z beach: That's the general structure I guess.  In Cleavir, we do (loop while <problem> do (restart-case (error ....) (continue () <fix-the-problem>)))
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2019-10-26T04:58:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting, I generally try to keep functions that signal conditions and functions that bind restarts separate
2019-10-26T05:00:28Z beach: I haven't given it that much thought.  You may be right.
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2019-10-26T05:43:53Z Berra: I'm having a look at this quasiquote expansion algorithm here: https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=5ED3427EC556DC73E4592CD4B291EEED?doi=10.1.1.309.227&rep=rep1&type=pdf
2019-10-26T05:44:12Z Berra: And from what I can tell it evaluates ``1 into '1
2019-10-26T05:45:07Z Berra: This isn't inline with how Scheme or Common Lisp actually does it. I know they can be considered equal to some degree, but not exactly.
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2019-10-26T07:56:41Z beach: Berra: So, do you have a remark or a question relating to that?
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2019-10-26T08:40:54Z Berra: beach: Yeah quite vague statement, I agree. But that's because I'm quite lost as to how I _should_ implement it..
2019-10-26T08:41:29Z Berra: beach: I'm getting the behavior of nested unquotes completely wrong and I'm a bit stuck as to why.
2019-10-26T08:42:14Z Berra: `1 -> 1      and     ``1 -> `1
2019-10-26T08:42:35Z Berra: But anything I write that makes sense to me ```1 -> 1 - which is incorrect.
2019-10-26T08:49:11Z pjb: Berra: (read-from-string "```1") abcl, ccl return 1; clisp, ecl, sbcl  return ```1 ; all are wrong according to 2.4.6. which specifies that `basic is equivalent to 'basic, so ```1 should be read as '''1 ie (quote (quote (quote 1)))
2019-10-26T08:49:20Z pjb: (listp '```1) #| --> nil |#  it should be T.
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2019-10-26T09:13:47Z Berra: pjb: Hmm, ok. Thank you, that's helpful. Will read more. And reference the difference with Scheme as well
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2019-10-26T09:41:11Z beach: Berra: You can also check how it is done in other implementations.
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2019-10-26T09:41:45Z beach: Berra: The main difficulty is in expanding the macro form that the reader produces as a result.
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2019-10-26T09:45:06Z beach: Berra: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Eclector/blob/master/code/reader/quasiquote-macro.lisp
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2019-10-26T10:37:06Z awsyoos: Hello is anyone here familiar with Conway's Game of Life?
2019-10-26T10:37:29Z beach: Sure.
2019-10-26T10:38:59Z awsyoos: OK, well I was trying to make an implementation in Common Lisp, and I thought I'd ask about spawning extra cells if there are 3 neighbours to that cell.
2019-10-26T10:39:13Z awsyoos: I made a function that counts the nighbours, what's next?
2019-10-26T10:40:06Z awsyoos: (defun neighbour-p (arr x y)
2019-10-26T10:40:07Z awsyoos:   (+ (aref arr (- x 1) (- y 1))
2019-10-26T10:40:07Z awsyoos:      (aref arr (+ x 1) (+ y 1))
2019-10-26T10:40:07Z awsyoos:      (aref arr (- x 1) (+ y 1))
2019-10-26T10:40:07Z awsyoos:      (aref arr (+ x 1) (- y 1))
2019-10-26T10:40:09Z awsyoos:      (aref arr (- x 1) y)
2019-10-26T10:40:12Z awsyoos:      (aref arr (+ x 1) y)
2019-10-26T10:40:14Z awsyoos:      (aref arr x (+ y 1))
2019-10-26T10:40:16Z awsyoos:      (aref arr x (- y 1))))
2019-10-26T10:40:22Z awsyoos: Here's the counting neighbours function.
2019-10-26T10:42:31Z beach: Please use a past site for code with more than a single line.
2019-10-26T10:42:54Z awsyoos: Sure.
2019-10-26T10:42:55Z beach: Next, you apply the rules of the game.
2019-10-26T10:43:34Z beach: The simplest thing is to use a second array for the next generation.
2019-10-26T10:43:57Z awsyoos: oh
2019-10-26T10:44:06Z awsyoos: I'm on it.
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2019-10-26T12:49:41Z thijso: So jackdaniel told me I wasn't allowed to call myself an idiot. So I won't. Out loud, at least... Just a public service announcement that if you're working on an Android app, before spending 2+ days debugging lowlevel stuff in ECL sockets.lisp and sbcl.lisp, sprinkling logging statements everywhere and recompiling a million times, check that you actually have set the correct app permissions on android to use
2019-10-26T12:49:48Z thijso: INTERNET. You know, for sockets, and the like...
2019-10-26T12:49:54Z thijso: Excuse me while I go cry in a corner for a while
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2019-10-26T13:22:54Z _death: thijso: did the error message not help? if not, maybe make it helpful
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2019-10-26T13:28:42Z p_l: _death: I don't recall it being easy to get error message for that
2019-10-26T13:28:55Z skidd0: is there a way i can 'monitor' a special var for when it changes?
2019-10-26T13:29:09Z Shinmera: Not directly, no.
2019-10-26T13:29:23Z skidd0: thanks
2019-10-26T13:29:31Z Shinmera: A special variable might also not change at all, but rather be rebound dynamically.
2019-10-26T13:30:04Z skidd0: can you expand on that?
2019-10-26T13:30:09Z skidd0: isn't rebinding changing it?
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2019-10-26T13:30:44Z Shinmera: The value of the variable does not change, it just has a binding with a new value in the bound context.
2019-10-26T13:30:58Z skidd0: oh in a lexical scope
2019-10-26T13:31:04Z skidd0: like a let binding
2019-10-26T13:31:06Z Shinmera: No, in a dynamic scope.
2019-10-26T13:31:09Z skidd0: oh
2019-10-26T13:31:30Z thijso: _death: well, the code died somewhere in shared-initialize :after for inet-socket in ecl/contrib/sockets/sockets.lisp and on android you don't get into the debugger, so I had to log stuff to logcat
2019-10-26T13:31:49Z Shinmera: (defvar *bar* 1) (defun foo () (print *bar*)) (foo) (let ((*bar* 2)) (foo)) (foo) ; => 1 2 1
2019-10-26T13:32:07Z thijso: so no real error message to track down... I ended up finding out I got EACCESS from the ffi socket call...
2019-10-26T13:32:24Z skidd0: Shinmera: i see
2019-10-26T13:32:30Z skidd0: thank you
2019-10-26T13:32:47Z skidd0: so a let binding is dynamic scope
2019-10-26T13:32:54Z Shinmera: No
2019-10-26T13:33:01Z Shinmera: special variables have dynamically scoped bindings.
2019-10-26T13:33:11Z Shinmera: any variable that isn't special has lexical scope.
2019-10-26T13:33:36Z Shinmera: This is why special variables are usually named with earmuffs, because the semantics of binding it are very different.
2019-10-26T13:33:40Z skidd0: so a let binding on a special var makes use of a special's dynamic scope
2019-10-26T13:34:10Z skidd0: ?
2019-10-26T13:34:30Z Shinmera: rather it creates a dynamically scoped binding.
2019-10-26T13:34:55Z skidd0: so that the special holds the value of the let binding only within the let statement
2019-10-26T13:35:06Z Shinmera: yes
2019-10-26T13:36:22Z _death: thijso: what happens when after EACCESS is returned?
2019-10-26T13:36:30Z skidd0: Shinmera: what about here: https://pastebin.com/4NTigvMb
2019-10-26T13:36:45Z skidd0: it prints "one" "two" "one"
2019-10-26T13:37:23Z Shinmera: these are lexical bindings, and you're evaluating their values within their lexical scope.
2019-10-26T13:37:40Z skidd0: ah okay
2019-10-26T13:37:52Z Shinmera: note that above I used a function binding to escape the lexical scope and show the effect of the dynamic scope.
2019-10-26T13:38:13Z skidd0: oh right, i see
2019-10-26T13:38:23Z skidd0: i could not do that with var-1
2019-10-26T13:38:28Z Shinmera: Yes.
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2019-10-26T13:38:33Z skidd0: because it does not exist outside the lexical scope
2019-10-26T13:39:38Z thijso: _death: the thread dies, and the app just continues in the non-ndk thread, so you get the app screen...
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2019-10-26T13:40:09Z thijso: And yes, that should not happen, but I have no idea at the moment how to fix that...
2019-10-26T13:40:57Z thijso: And, a caveat, that's what I *think* happens, based on the logs that end up in logcat, and where they suddenly just stop...
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2019-10-26T15:09:08Z White_Flame: are there any gotchas to watch out for when specializing methods on defstruct types?
2019-10-26T15:10:14Z _death: no
2019-10-26T15:10:15Z beach: I don't think so.
2019-10-26T15:10:15Z Shinmera: well it only works if the type of the structure is not list or vector.
2019-10-26T15:10:39Z White_Flame: I'm in a state where the dispatch complains there is no primary method, where there clearly is one, at least syntactically
2019-10-26T15:10:56Z White_Flame: and yeah, no :type funkage either
2019-10-26T15:11:06Z Shinmera: are you sure you're in the right package and didn't typo the names?
2019-10-26T15:11:28Z White_Flame: yeah, no typo.  defstruct and defmethod are in teh same file with no package change
2019-10-26T15:11:29Z _death: you can inspect the generic function to see which methods it contains
2019-10-26T15:11:40Z beach: White_Flame: You can use the SLIME inspector on the generic function to check the methods.
2019-10-26T15:11:43Z White_Flame: I did DESCRIBE, and it matches
2019-10-26T15:13:34Z _death: there may be a gotcha to redefining structs though.. did you do that?
2019-10-26T15:14:05Z White_Flame: ah, I've been beating on this but I don't think I redefined it recently.  let me cycle the image
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2019-10-26T15:15:02Z White_Flame: yep, it seems to advance past that now.  sheesh.  thanks
2019-10-26T15:15:37Z White_Flame: (what is this, windows?  reboot and try again!)
2019-10-26T15:15:43Z Shinmera: don't use structures until you're sure it works and sure it needs to be structures, etc.
2019-10-26T15:16:14Z _death: if you had redefined the method (and everything else that uses struct accessors/constructors etc.) it would likely have worked
2019-10-26T15:17:01Z White_Flame: I've been recompiling the file, but some older redefinition error with teh various restarts for how to run the redefinition might not have been right or something
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2019-10-26T15:42:51Z pfdietz61: I tend to just reload systems rather than individual files.   If you've set up the dependencies correctly then code that uses a structure gets redefined.  This doesn't save you from existing structure objects becoming invalid, though.
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2019-10-26T18:40:44Z seok: What is this stream encoding error?
2019-10-26T18:40:45Z seok: the character with code 8198 cannot be encoded.
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2019-10-26T18:40:52Z seok: when writing to a file
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2019-10-26T18:45:06Z MichaelRaskin: Apparently you are trying to write to a file as to a character stream with external-format not permitting to encode the Unicode range you use
2019-10-26T18:45:40Z pjb: You have a chinese character in your file: (princ #\u8198) #| 膘 --> #\U+8198 |#
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2019-10-26T18:47:46Z dgtlcmo: Hi!
2019-10-26T18:47:58Z dgtlcmo: Does anyone have a Symbolics Space Cadet or Knight LISP Machine keyboard?
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2019-10-26T18:50:41Z pjb: dgtlcmo: you can build your own keyboard.
2019-10-26T18:51:13Z dgtlcmo: pjb: with special hall effect sensors?
2019-10-26T18:51:29Z p_l: dgtlcmo: there are suppliers still available, but not the microcom
2019-10-26T18:51:45Z p_l: *microswitch
2019-10-26T18:51:48Z aap: building a space cadet or knight keyboard is probably gonna be pretty expensive
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2019-10-26T18:52:26Z dgtlcmo: im interested because I think the keyboard layout supports LISP better.  For instance, I'm suspect that the function of the key to the left of tab, was M-x in modern emacs
2019-10-26T18:52:33Z p_l: it wasn't
2019-10-26T18:52:44Z dgtlcmo: so challening interacting with emacs using this iMac BT keyboard
2019-10-26T18:53:08Z p_l: dgtlcmo: for redoing Mac keyboard into more of lisp keyboard, look at steve losh's blog. Let me check the link for you
2019-10-26T18:53:38Z p_l: http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/10/a-modern-space-cadet/
2019-10-26T18:53:59Z p_l: replace KeyRemap4MacBook with Karabinier Elements
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2019-10-26T18:56:00Z dgtlcmo: i'm reading
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2019-10-26T18:57:06Z ck_: I second the Karabiner recommendation
2019-10-26T18:59:16Z ck_: thanks for the blog link, p_l
2019-10-26T18:59:23Z dgtlcmo: I'm tryiing to find out a function of finger positioning on a LISP machine keyboard like Symbolics to the Z/Emacs function
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2019-10-26T19:00:46Z dgtlcmo: is Karabiner elements safe?  Scared of a keylogger
2019-10-26T19:01:34Z p_l: dgtlcmo: get a full-size PC keyboard, put (from spacebar out): ctrl, alt, super, hyper
2019-10-26T19:02:41Z p_l: and attempt using emacs keys using opposite hand for modifiers
2019-10-26T19:04:42Z dgtlcmo: For the iMac BT keyboard. I think based on my observations CAPS LOCK -> Meta.  LeftCtrl, LeftOpt -> Ctrl.  LeftArrow, Uparrow, DownArrow -> Ctrl.
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2019-10-26T19:05:21Z p_l: anyway, the above is the layout that was driving Emacs keybinds
2019-10-26T19:05:47Z dgtlcmo: p_l: can you clarify "the above"?
2019-10-26T19:06:00Z p_l: that said, a lot of the oldest keybindings are essentially "one guy went around the lab and gathered what configurations people had"
2019-10-26T19:06:19Z p_l: dgtlcmo: the layout of hyper-super-meta-ctrl-spacebar-ctrl-meta-super-hyper
2019-10-26T19:07:04Z dgtlcmo: I have a hard time believing Meta had it's original functionality on the space bar row
2019-10-26T19:07:19Z dgtlcmo: I think Meta is more likely ALT MODE on the Space Cadet
2019-10-26T19:07:28Z p_l: alt mode was separate key, iirc
2019-10-26T19:08:15Z p_l: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Novena_%2B_Knight_keyboard_%2816277937833%29.jpg <--- this is oldest, without hyper and super
2019-10-26T19:09:38Z p_l: also, there was no difference for left/right modifiers
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2019-10-26T19:11:52Z seok: hm..
2019-10-26T19:12:02Z seok: but I don't have any chinese characters in the string
2019-10-26T19:12:36Z dgtlcmo: p_l: if that knight keyboard were to work with current Emacs keybindings ppl would get carpal tunnel
2019-10-26T19:12:41Z p_l: this keyboard was used with "Knight TV" system, which provided video consoles (with graphics et al) to MIT-AI KA10 machines (it didn't work with later KL10A/KS10 systems)
2019-10-26T19:12:56Z dgtlcmo: the Meta and Ctrl requires to rotate the hand from the home position
2019-10-26T19:12:57Z p_l: dgtlcmo: not if they used it the way it's supposed to be used
2019-10-26T19:13:05Z p_l: no it doesn't involve rotation
2019-10-26T19:13:09Z dgtlcmo: p_l: what way is that?
2019-10-26T19:13:15Z p_l: you move *opposite* hand
2019-10-26T19:13:25Z p_l: for example, for C-x C-f
2019-10-26T19:13:42Z dgtlcmo: ohh
2019-10-26T19:14:15Z p_l: use right hand (linear move) to hold Control, use left hand to hit x and f
2019-10-26T19:14:17Z dgtlcmo: so it does involve rotation
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2019-10-26T19:15:13Z p_l: no rotation, move whole hand
2019-10-26T19:15:15Z p_l: linearly
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2019-10-26T19:17:11Z seok: how do I check if my string contains invalid character to write to file?
2019-10-26T19:19:01Z phoe: I've managed to build and deploy a SBCL+Qtools GUI application across three different OSes using Travis CI as build environment. https://i.imgur.com/KcmikRR.png
2019-10-26T19:19:09Z dgtlcmo: http://nickpapadonis.com/images/keyb/imac-symbolics-lmi.png
2019-10-26T19:19:17Z dgtlcmo: http://nickpapadonis.com/images/keyb/imac-knight.png
2019-10-26T19:19:22Z dgtlcmo: here are two overlays
2019-10-26T19:19:24Z p_l: dgtlcmo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard#/media/File:Space-cadet.jpg <--- this is keyboard from symbolics lm-2
2019-10-26T19:19:31Z dgtlcmo: over the imac keyboard
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2019-10-26T19:19:48Z Shinmera: When is this discussion going to be about Common Lisp?
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2019-10-26T19:20:30Z p_l: phoe: can you share the resulting app file from macOS?
2019-10-26T19:20:45Z dgtlcmo: Shinmera: apologies, I really didn't have another place to go to for these questions
2019-10-26T19:20:52Z dgtlcmo: Shinmera: this seems closest relation
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2019-10-26T19:20:59Z p_l: #lispcafe might be better
2019-10-26T19:21:26Z phoe: p_l: no app file just yet. I only have a raw binary, without wrapping it in a nice .app format.
2019-10-26T19:21:27Z p_l: I honestly didn't send you there because I looked at it more from "history of lisp environments" perspective
2019-10-26T19:22:01Z dgtlcmo: p_l: irc is so dead, thats why I sought a wider audience
2019-10-26T19:22:02Z p_l: phoe: I recently tried to get qtools running on mac 10.14 and failed horribly
2019-10-26T19:22:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: dgtlcmo: binding shift to parens was lifechanging
2019-10-26T19:22:19Z phoe: p_l: I have got it to run on 10.12. You could check if my binary runs on 10.14.
2019-10-26T19:22:28Z p_l: phoe: I need the libs too
2019-10-26T19:22:40Z p_l: a copy of them, preferably packaged into app
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2019-10-26T19:22:56Z phoe: p_l: they're bundled in my ZIP.
2019-10-26T19:23:02Z p_l: ok
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2019-10-26T19:24:00Z dgtlcmo: so the suggestion is to use Karabiner-Elements and modify the keyboard to my liking?
2019-10-26T19:24:09Z p_l: yes
2019-10-26T19:24:14Z dgtlcmo: how are others developing LISP efficiently with a keyboard on iMac and Macbooks?
2019-10-26T19:24:30Z dgtlcmo: I assume through Emacs... but with what bindings.
2019-10-26T19:24:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use evil-mode plus a custom keymap to make paredit more ergonomic
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2019-10-26T19:25:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've been slowly learning how to use emacs without evil mode, but I find vim-style keybindings a lot more pleasant than modifiers everywhere
2019-10-26T19:26:03Z dgtlcmo: fiddlerwoaroof: I considered EVIL, however I was hoping LISPers had close ties to the Emacs bindings for some scientifically based reason...
2019-10-26T19:26:44Z dgtlcmo: fiddlerwoaroof: I agree.  I used VIM for years with great efficiency on Agol dialects of code.  I'm trying to swim with LISP dialects now...
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2019-10-26T19:27:08Z dgtlcmo: cosimone: i like your nick
2019-10-26T19:27:40Z cosimone: dgtlcmo: thank you, what do you like about it in particular?
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2019-10-26T19:28:59Z dgtlcmo: cosimone: 0 and 180 degrees
2019-10-26T19:29:47Z dgtlcmo: p_l: what type of interface do you develop lisp on?
2019-10-26T19:30:11Z cosimone: dgtlcmo: lol never thought about it that way
2019-10-26T19:31:01Z dgtlcmo: cosimone: they should be teaching kids how to construct the cos sin tables instead of providing the the function btw
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2019-10-26T19:33:49Z dgtlcmo: p_l: the knight keyboard layout allows rotation of the opposite hand pinky to ctrl.  meta on the knight requires lifting the hand up
2019-10-26T19:34:43Z dgtlcmo: p_l: I'm unsure how the Knight keyboard allowed use of meta without moving the hands off the rest
2019-10-26T19:35:56Z p_l: don't fixate on not moving your hands
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2019-10-26T19:40:55Z dgtlcmo: p_l: ok so to remap my iMac keyboard like a Knight, I would need to drop arrow key functionality and replace left, up, down as control.  meta is off the edge of the imac keyboard, so i would probably leave meta as the command key.
2019-10-26T19:42:01Z dgtlcmo: is there any other way with apple bundled utilities to remap keys?  I'm worried that Karabiner-Elements could be a key logger... just being cautious
2019-10-26T19:42:24Z pjb: of course.
2019-10-26T19:42:44Z dgtlcmo: i think I could somehow create a keyboard definition
2019-10-26T19:42:54Z p_l: you can't
2019-10-26T19:43:01Z dgtlcmo: p_l: why not?
2019-10-26T19:43:08Z p_l: or at least, few years back Apple would block it
2019-10-26T19:43:09Z dgtlcmo: p_l: is that proprietary
2019-10-26T19:43:21Z p_l: dgtlcmo: no, apple just doesn't want you to do it
2019-10-26T19:43:24Z pjb: dgtlcmo: see the variables mac-command-modifier  mac-option-modifier mac-command-key-is-meta mac-reverse-ctrl-meta
2019-10-26T19:44:09Z p_l: dgtlcmo: a friend of mine wanted custom norwegian layout, different from the one provided by apple
2019-10-26T19:44:22Z dgtlcmo: pjb: in emacs?  by the way I'm running emacs in a virtualbox debian host... scared of that running on my mac osx environment as well. trying to keep it clean
2019-10-26T19:44:56Z p_l: dgtlcmo: he told me that to run his custom keyboard layout he had to delete all other layout definitions
2019-10-26T19:44:57Z pjb: dgtlcmo: don't be scared, get it from: https://emacsformacosx.com
2019-10-26T19:45:08Z dgtlcmo: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/create-and-use-your-own-input-source-on-mac-mchlp2866/mac
2019-10-26T19:45:15Z dgtlcmo: pjb: lol sure :)
2019-10-26T19:45:36Z dgtlcmo: pjb: it's advertised like candy there :)
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2019-10-26T19:46:34Z pjb: dgtlcmo: Alternatively, you can run an X11 emacs with X11.app, but then keyboard layout is complicated by the X layer.
2019-10-26T19:48:38Z pjb: dgtlcmo: the advantage of this configuration, is that you get the exact same emacs configuration on linux than on macos.  But since the keys go thru one more layer, responsiveness is sometimes a little worse (but not as bad as on MS-Windows).
2019-10-26T19:48:48Z pjb: emacsformac is very nice.
2019-10-26T19:49:01Z pjb: It's just GNU emacs compiled for macOS.
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2019-10-26T19:51:09Z dgtlcmo: pjb: yeah thats what i'm doing which makes everything more complicated
2019-10-26T19:51:24Z dgtlcmo: pjb: I'm trying both, through x and just as a terminal session
2019-10-26T19:52:05Z saravia: hello lisp, here my exwm configuration https://notabug.org/saravia/emacs-personal maybe your can improve my basic .emacs.d ×D
2019-10-26T19:52:08Z seok: which library should i use to write lisp objects to file?
2019-10-26T19:52:54Z phoe: seok: depends; serialization is hard to generalize
2019-10-26T19:53:46Z phoe: check if cl-conspack solves the problem you face
2019-10-26T19:53:52Z phoe: if not, come back for more
2019-10-26T19:54:49Z pjb: seok: if your lisp objects are printable readably then you can use CL:PRINT and CL:READ.
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2019-10-26T19:56:53Z p_l: also CL:WRITE ?
2019-10-26T19:57:57Z phoe: that's the simple thing, yeah, just read and write them if they're simple data
2019-10-26T19:58:15Z phoe: if you have unreadable stuff such as standard-instances though, you might want something more advanced
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2019-10-26T20:03:30Z pjb: dgtlcmo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guu-2epnuD8
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2019-10-26T20:15:35Z p_l: dgtlcmo: btw, input sources != keyboard mappings. Especially systemwide ones that apply to everything :)
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2019-10-26T20:22:03Z dgtlcmo: pjb: watching it now
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2019-10-26T20:22:36Z dgtlcmo: pjb: it's not an identical layout.  mighting some keys from the left
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2019-10-26T20:57:24Z dgtlcmo: p_l: I posted the keyboard question on stackexchange.  Hopefully someone can provide guidance there as well.  https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/373639/script-to-change-keyboard-bindings-quickly-for-emacs
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2019-10-26T20:59:08Z dgtlcmo: I think it will be challenging to rebind the arrow keys unless some modifier can be used while in OSX to use ghjk with it
2019-10-26T20:59:40Z p_l: karabinier elements can do it
2019-10-26T20:59:57Z p_l: and no, it's not a keylogger, though it does access the keyboard input directly
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2019-10-26T21:37:20Z seok: hm..
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2019-10-26T21:37:35Z seok: Yeah, read and writes are not working
2019-10-26T21:37:47Z seok: I have a huge hashtable so I can't read the error message lol.
2019-10-26T21:38:01Z seok: emacs freezes all the time trying to print error
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2019-10-26T21:39:26Z no-defun-allowed: What implementation is that? All I can think of don't print the contents of the hash table (maybe for that reason).
2019-10-26T21:40:17Z space_otter: are hash tables affected by *print-length*?
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2019-10-26T21:43:00Z p_l: they don't have a read-form, iirc
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2019-10-26T21:43:32Z p_l: you might want to write a custom serializer? Maybe something that will generate a function call that creates the hashtable content
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2019-10-26T21:47:37Z space_otter: you're right, printing a hash gives #< ... >
2019-10-26T21:49:14Z space_otter: i've printed 4 million element arrays in slime before and emacs didn't freeze
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2019-10-26T22:20:23Z seok: the character with code 8198 seems not be a chinese character
2019-10-26T22:20:25Z seok: :/
2019-10-26T22:20:35Z seok: I am trying to write json to file
2019-10-26T22:20:45Z seok: the character with code 8198 cannot be encoded.
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2019-10-26T22:20:48Z seok: keep getting this
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2019-10-26T22:22:52Z space_otter: what are you using to write json? is it not escaping unicode characters?
2019-10-26T22:23:10Z seok: i am just encoding to json with yason
2019-10-26T22:23:14Z seok: then using str:to-file
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2019-10-26T22:26:16Z p_l: check external encoding of the write stream. Which implementation?
2019-10-26T22:26:24Z seok: sbcl
2019-10-26T22:26:32Z seok: how do i check that?
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2019-10-26T22:30:24Z p_l: I don't remember the accessor to check, but ensure you open the file with :external-format :utf-8
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2019-10-27T00:39:06Z pjb: seok: indeed, the database gives: Six-Per-Em Space
2019-10-27T00:39:23Z pjb: seok: you must have copy-pasted text from some typeset unicode.
2019-10-27T00:41:11Z pjb: seok: type M-x whitespace-mode RET
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2019-10-27T02:48:06Z eschatologist: Seriously, trying to recreate a LispM keyboard because you think it’ll be more efficient for writing Lisp than modern keyboard layouts?
2019-10-27T02:48:57Z eschatologist: If you think keyboard layout is having a noticeable effect on your development, my guess is you’re doing something pretty wrong.
2019-10-27T02:49:34Z no-defun-allowed: Hall-effect switches sound neat though.
2019-10-27T02:49:42Z eschatologist: Also I’m pretty sure the LispM stuff was never actually designed for more than minimal ergonomic improvement.
2019-10-27T02:50:10Z eschatologist: Hall-effect switches sound neat, but they’re not really all that great as keyboards.
2019-10-27T02:50:33Z no-defun-allowed: And the modifier keys look nice as a bilingual writer (well, really I just write α, β and λ but it's enough to be annoying).
2019-10-27T02:50:34Z eschatologist: This whole “Symbolics keyboards are the Holy Grail!” or “what’s slowing me down is not having a Space Cadet keyboard!” thing is silly.
2019-10-27T02:50:57Z White_Flame: all you need is a good compose key setup
2019-10-27T02:51:36Z eschatologist: There are Mac keyboards at least (like the Matias stuff) that show the option key mapping so you can type a lot of that directly.
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2019-10-27T03:30:57Z dmiles: is there a quasiquote reader for lisp?
2019-10-27T03:31:28Z no-defun-allowed: fare-quasiquote?
2019-10-27T03:31:33Z dmiles: like #/python/     ....  /#
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2019-10-27T03:31:38Z dmiles: ok will check
2019-10-27T03:31:42Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, uum
2019-10-27T03:31:56Z no-defun-allowed: Not as in `(stuff ,goes here)?
2019-10-27T03:32:38Z dmiles: i can for instance make one.. but been nice if a someone already reserved be a hash-character
2019-10-27T03:33:02Z dmiles: i can   make one.. but been nice if a someone already reserved me a hash-character
2019-10-27T03:33:08Z no-defun-allowed: What would it do?
2019-10-27T03:34:28Z dmiles: #/ LangName /  passed to (calls-quasi-reader LangName  this content as a string/stream ) until /#
2019-10-27T03:35:26Z dmiles: so that you may embed other language sytaxes without using up a reader macro for each language
2019-10-27T03:37:13Z dmiles: Quasi quotation allows for embedding (long) strings using the syntax of an external language (e.g., HTML, SQL) in Lisp text and syntax-aware embedding of Lisp sysmbols in this syntax. At the same time, quasi quotation provides an alternative to represent long strings in Lisp.
2019-10-27T03:37:59Z no-defun-allowed: I have a #{ }# reader somewhere, which I used for a DSL; #/foo/ looks like a regular expression.
2019-10-27T03:38:27Z dmiles: i was thinkin #{ was used already ..
2019-10-27T03:38:39Z dmiles: awesoem if not
2019-10-27T03:38:39Z no-defun-allowed: Not to my knowledge.
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2019-10-27T03:38:44Z dmiles: #{|Syntax||Quotation|}#
2019-10-27T03:39:04Z dmiles: is what i will use then :)
2019-10-27T03:40:00Z dmiles: #{|(html Name Address)||     <tr><td>Name<td>Address</tr>     |}#
2019-10-27T03:40:38Z dmiles: if  <tr><td>1<td>2</tr>  is read
2019-10-27T03:41:08Z dmiles: oops sorry .. thats next phase i should stick with first phase
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2019-10-27T03:41:34Z dmiles: stealling from https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=quasiquotations
2019-10-27T03:41:54Z no-defun-allowed: This would look something like https://pastebin.com/hKtkWkdQ
2019-10-27T03:42:04Z no-defun-allowed: #{hi there dmiles}# is read as '(run-in-language "hi there dmiles")
2019-10-27T03:42:36Z dmiles: perfect
2019-10-27T03:42:58Z dmiles: the only difernce is i might read two symbols first
2019-10-27T03:43:18Z dmiles: |Some Whatnot| |Some text|
2019-10-27T03:43:40Z dmiles: (run-inlanuage (sring sym1) (string sym2))
2019-10-27T03:46:37Z dmiles: you could even do that though youd (run-in-lanuage (strin (read)) (string (read)).. consume until #}
2019-10-27T03:47:46Z dmiles: actualyl i dont like that idea of mine... i'd just read off the first symbol.. then pass the rest like youpassed the rest
2019-10-27T03:48:20Z dmiles: #{|Some Whatnot| Some text }#
2019-10-27T03:48:54Z dmiles: since perhaps a language might enjoy |
2019-10-27T03:49:04Z dmiles: }# is more unique
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2019-10-27T04:04:52Z White_Flame: the way I do it, #{ reads a symbol via the common-lisp reader, then switches to that other named-readtable.  That inner table needs to have } or }# or whatever to call pop-readtable.  Theoretically, it can have whatever EOF character it wants to trip that
2019-10-27T04:05:32Z White_Flame: so if it alerady uses something similar, you can choose whatever suits that language best.  It just won't visually nest as nicely
2019-10-27T04:09:27Z dmiles: yeah
2019-10-27T04:10:31Z pjb: dmiles: there's already #. : #.(setf *readtable* *python-readtable*) …python…code… #.(setf *readtable* (copy-readtable nil))
2019-10-27T04:10:32Z dmiles: #{Some-Syntax ? Some text ?}
2019-10-27T04:10:45Z pjb: dmiles: just to note that there's already a 100% general and Turing Complete solution.
2019-10-27T04:11:02Z pjb: dmiles: anything else can be trivially implemented as you wish.
2019-10-27T04:11:04Z dmiles: i'd probably let whatever the char they prefered to be used be whever nonblank follows symbol
2019-10-27T04:11:37Z White_Flame: pjb: well, that woudl also require #. be active in the sublanguage, too
2019-10-27T04:11:54Z pjb: Yes.
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2019-10-27T04:12:20Z White_Flame: so I guess in mine, #.(push-readtable :sublanguage) ... #.(pop-readtable)  That's fairly reasonable
2019-10-27T04:12:48Z White_Flame: but # isn't a dispatched macro character in my sublanguage; it's constituent
2019-10-27T04:13:07Z White_Flame: so it would still have to do magic
2019-10-27T04:14:35Z dmiles: hrrm..    #.(push-readtable :bash) #.(pop-readtable)
2019-10-27T04:22:54Z dmiles: of course since i love to compicate things i let there terminating sequnce be the inversions of a list of printing chars following first symbol read
2019-10-27T04:23:34Z dmiles: #{Some-Syntax ?666> Some text <666?}
2019-10-27T04:25:37Z dmiles: unspoken requiremnt there is that the the <Space> happens on both ends
2019-10-27T04:26:16Z dmiles: since cant do:     #{Some-Syntax ?666>Some text<666?}
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2019-10-27T04:35:44Z dmiles: #{|Some-Syntax| >--|-{} Some text {}--|-< }
2019-10-27T04:35:48Z dmiles: :)
2019-10-27T04:40:58Z dmiles: me mubles somethihg about https://1lineart.kulaone.com/#/
2019-10-27T04:41:06Z dmiles even
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2019-10-27T04:58:10Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-27T05:07:19Z White_Flame: dmiles: one could argue the proper reflection should be >--|-{}  to }{-|-->
2019-10-27T05:07:52Z White_Flame triggers every OCD ever
2019-10-27T05:08:54Z dmiles: dont feel bad! i been practicing in messages to myself :)
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2019-10-27T05:09:59Z dmiles:  #{|where to stick it| ╭∩╮ to da man ╭∩╮}   vs  seeign what mirrors there might be for ò益ó  well tryi8ng to miror  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2019-10-27T05:11:43Z dmiles: imagining spending a whole day creating the utimate text "mirroring" librarty
2019-10-27T05:12:18Z no-defun-allowed: White_Flame: the solution is to mirror characters, eg p <-> q
2019-10-27T05:14:08Z dmiles: well cerain sequnces have to be pre-ordained
2019-10-27T05:15:12Z dmiles: like that makes apearance shapes like "{}" "<>" "`'"
2019-10-27T05:15:54Z dmiles: even ツ  will need ot be  mirrored as  ツ
2019-10-27T05:18:16Z dmiles: yet singlely  "{" changes
2019-10-27T05:22:12Z dmiles: knowing if one really wants to do this all this and have it work for everyone they have to probly loosen up what mirrored text was..  we'd want to accept both {}--|-< and }{-|-->
2019-10-27T05:23:19Z dmiles: and even }{--|->
2019-10-27T05:24:23Z dmiles: oopsy i realy meant   {}-|--<
2019-10-27T05:28:39Z dmiles: at least its a fun way to handle it.. and even solves the in/out issue
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2019-10-27T05:29:49Z dmiles: #{|where to stick it| ╭∩╮ to da man named ╭∩╮ #.(get-username) ╭∩╮ on computer ╭∩╮ #.(get-host) }
2019-10-27T05:30:17Z dmiles: if there was a outer language reader
2019-10-27T05:36:27Z dmiles: in practice everone will proably pick a single character anyways
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2019-10-27T05:40:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: dmiles: this isn't exactly what you're talking about, but it's similar: https://github.com/ruricolist/vernacular
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2019-10-27T05:43:41Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe I have forgotten if I asked before, but are there any things I have to know before starting development of an object persistence library?
2019-10-27T05:45:01Z dmiles: fiddlerwoaroof: oh neat
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2019-10-27T05:51:36Z beach: no-defun-allowed: You need to decide about semantics.  And you may want to compare it to Clobber.
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2019-10-27T05:52:37Z beach: no-defun-allowed: One danger is to store objects by slots.  Then, if the class changes, your "database" is useless.
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2019-10-27T05:54:21Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I developed Clobber to get around such problems in so-called "prevalence" libraries.
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2019-10-27T05:57:22Z beach: I fix that problem by making Clobber totally log based.  Each transaction creates a log entry, and you load the entire log into a fresh Common Lisp image, which will then create an image "similar" to the previous one.
2019-10-27T05:58:18Z beach: Clobber consists of less than 300 lines of Common Lisp code.
2019-10-27T05:58:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Where is SDF's issue tracker?
2019-10-27T05:58:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: ASDF's, that is
2019-10-27T05:59:10Z no-defun-allowed: Hmm, alright, I'll go see.
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2019-10-27T06:01:20Z no-defun-allowed: My plan to handle that is to store the list of slots we would be assuming we have otherwise, and compare those to the current class definition. If not, we update-instance-for-redefined-class and might write that back.
2019-10-27T06:05:47Z beach: That might work.  However, the existence of a slot is an implementation detail, and you may not want to save implementation details in the data base.  I consider the interface to a class to be the initialization arguments and the slot accessors.
2019-10-27T06:06:16Z no-defun-allowed: Fair enough.
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2019-10-27T06:07:26Z beach: You could also study how we save ASTs in Cleavir.  It uses exactly this idea.
2019-10-27T06:09:38Z beach: And you should consider the consequences of your implementation choice on the programming style.  As I think I have told you before, if you can have several "copies" of an object, then you end up programming as in C++.
2019-10-27T06:10:07Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, we have discussed it earlier in #sicl.
2019-10-27T06:10:59Z beach: Clobber fixes this problem by staying out of the way during normal execution, and by creating an entirely fresh object graph when the log is loaded into a fresh Common Lisp image.
2019-10-27T06:11:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: What generates new log entries?
2019-10-27T06:13:10Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I forget the details, but there is a function for logging a transaction.
2019-10-27T06:13:36Z no-defun-allowed: That's not far off the plan here either, but our system might contain "overlapping" graphs and so a weak hash-table will probably ensure that those overlapping parts are the same objects.
2019-10-27T06:13:46Z beach: The Clobber repository contains two demos.
2019-10-27T06:15:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool, I'll look at them.  This sounds like something which is often called the "lambda architecture"
2019-10-27T06:15:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: A couple of my coworkers like to design their data stores this way
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2019-10-27T06:16:06Z beach: Oh, OK.
2019-10-27T06:16:36Z beach: I just wrote Clobber as a reaction to all the complicated stuff I heard and read about.
2019-10-27T06:16:52Z beach: I am no expert in databases or persistent stores.
2019-10-27T06:17:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I think it's a good way to go when the cost of replaying the log isn't too high
2019-10-27T06:17:29Z beach: What I really want is universal persistence (in case someone missed that). :)
2019-10-27T06:18:05Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Exactly.  And as it turns out, people overestimate the cost of replaying.
2019-10-27T06:18:22Z beach: I guess they consider their organizations to be more important than they really are.
2019-10-27T06:20:09Z beach: When our university bought Oracle for a huge amount of money to handle student data, I did a lecture in my programming class, showing that 100 years of student data would fit in the main memory of the laptop I used for my slides.
2019-10-27T06:20:55Z beach: And, after laptop memories double in size every few years.
2019-10-27T06:21:03Z beach: s/after//
2019-10-27T06:21:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I maintain a service at work where our schema update strategy is to replay something like 30GB of events into our database and that takes something like 3 days
2019-10-27T06:22:21Z beach: Impressive.
2019-10-27T06:23:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: But we can do this mostly without downtime because either the changes are only additive or we play this into an empty database and cut over atomically
2019-10-27T06:24:46Z beach: Still, there is either something wrong with current database technology, or at least with the way people use it.
2019-10-27T06:25:08Z beach: But since I am not an expert, I usually avoid getting into details.
2019-10-27T06:25:54Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: I was not aware of vernacular either.  nice to know
2019-10-27T06:27:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think I happened upon it because it's written by the person who wrote the Spinneret HTML generator
2019-10-27T06:27:23Z White_Flame: seems like it assumes the actual language grammar is external, which is fine for me to plug into, because I'm tackling grammar
2019-10-27T06:27:33Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not counting too carefully, but my dataset would likely not fit in memory. Maybe I should guesstimate harder.
2019-10-27T06:28:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: just remember that 1TB of memory is already possible in high-end consumer computers (e.g. the new Mac Pro)
2019-10-27T06:28:07Z White_Flame: use moar swap
2019-10-27T06:28:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: And SSDs are close enough to memory speeds that falling back to the disk isn't as painful as it once was
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2019-10-27T06:44:11Z no-defun-allowed: fiddlerwoaroof: Well, Heroku has about 1/2000 of that and I've heard SBCL acts up with heaps larger than something like 64GB
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2019-10-27T06:51:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: there's a reason I don't use Heroku :)
2019-10-27T06:52:38Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
2019-10-27T06:53:11Z no-defun-allowed: I think I would be much more broke than before if I rented a server for more than five seconds with 1TB of primary memory though.
2019-10-27T06:54:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, my point is just that memory is getting cheap pretty fast and the gap between memory and disk (and network, for that matter), is closing rapidly
2019-10-27T06:57:09Z ggole: GCing massive heaps is an interesting problem
2019-10-27T06:57:49Z no-defun-allowed: Alright, I'm not going to disagree with you, but I have to play with what I have now, which is probably going to be two magnitudes smaller than that.
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2019-10-27T06:59:00Z no-defun-allowed: And we just got out of a price fixing thing, that made memory quite a bit more expensive, for no reason other than cause the two big manufacturers could.
2019-10-27T07:03:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: ggole: I don't know much about it, but I'd think some combination of region-based allocators and gcs would be the best way to go
2019-10-27T07:04:26Z ggole: Yeah, there are some systems like that. Erlang has thread-local heaps, for instance.
2019-10-27T07:04:48Z ggole: You couldn't implement a Lisp that way without major surgery though
2019-10-27T07:05:56Z no-defun-allowed: My first design probably will use a mark-during-sweep collector as described in one of Queinnec's papers - I haven't touched this stuff outside Racket's plai/gc2 but I know I need something there.
2019-10-27T07:07:46Z beach: ggole: I have a design for a thing like that for SICL, but it has not been tested in real life yet.
2019-10-27T07:08:17Z beach: But it combines thread-local heaps with a parallel and concurrent global collector.
2019-10-27T07:08:29Z beach: I have great hopes for it.
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2019-10-27T07:09:03Z beach: Processors are going to have plenty of cores, so we might as well use some of them for garbage collection.
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2019-10-27T07:09:20Z ggole: beach: do you have a reasonable description lying around?
2019-10-27T07:09:47Z beach: I sure do; metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-specification.pdf
2019-10-27T07:10:32Z ggole: Thanks, I'll take a look
2019-10-27T07:10:38Z beach: chapter 23.
2019-10-27T07:10:54Z beach: And appendix C.
2019-10-27T07:11:11Z no-defun-allowed: Can't say I know how running an incremental GC with a program that uses the database frequently would go on spinning disks. Hopefully it won't have to.
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2019-10-27T07:16:12Z beach: ggole: I apologize for the lengthy description (50 pages or so in total), but the specification is mainly meant as a support for my bad memory, and not so much for others to read.
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2019-10-27T07:18:17Z ggole: That's fine, I can skim
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2019-10-27T07:44:50Z ggole: Hmm. The bit on the write barrier says that it might move an object (and anything reachable from it) from a nursery into the global heap. How does that work if another thread is reading (or mutating) one of those objects?
2019-10-27T07:45:30Z beach: Objects in a thread-local heap can not be referenced by another thread.
2019-10-27T07:46:52Z ggole: So the write barrier is only run on the same thread that would be doing any such mutation
2019-10-27T07:47:05Z beach: Right.
2019-10-27T07:47:12Z ggole: I see.
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2019-10-27T09:04:24Z phoe: good morninnnnng
2019-10-27T09:04:37Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning phoe
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2019-10-27T10:15:58Z thijso: morning, everyone
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2019-10-27T10:43:02Z thijso: This summer I somehow ended up on a page about Android app development with CL (maybe this one: https://lights-of-holiness.eu/blog/ECL-QML-Android.htm) and being bored I thought I'd try to realize the idea I had for an app myself. I had investigated this (using CL for android dev) years before, but at the time gave up due to nothing really working yet. This time, after quite some struggles I actually managed
2019-10-27T10:43:08Z thijso: to build and run one of the examples in EQL5-Android. So I started. Long story short, it's doable, but too much fiddly stuff with version combinations and dependencies exist. That's why I made this side-project: https://github.com/thijs/android-ecl-bootstrap
2019-10-27T10:43:34Z thijso: It's very much inspired and built upon other people's work, most notably ECL and EQL5-Android.
2019-10-27T10:44:01Z thijso: It provides (I think) an easy and reproducable way to start building your own apps for Android using CL
2019-10-27T10:44:31Z thijso: It's by no means finished, and I'm very open to suggestions and improvements.
2019-10-27T10:45:20Z thijso: But as it stands currently, if you're on a linux and have docker installed, you should be able to build the example app with just a few commands.
2019-10-27T10:46:51Z thijso: So where would be a good place to advertise this exists? I'd like more people to start working on this stuff, so I don't have to figure out all the gotchas myself... ;)
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2019-10-27T10:58:33Z phoe: thijso: /r/lisp and /r/common_lisp on reddit and the Lisp Discord server
2019-10-27T10:58:43Z phoe: #lisp and #ecl and #lispcafe are also good
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2019-10-27T12:52:34Z pfdietz92: thijso: interesting!
2019-10-27T13:00:43Z thijso: pfdietz92: yeah, I hope so. My aim is to make it as easy as possible to get up and running so that more people will maybe try it out and give feedback.
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2019-10-27T15:48:52Z beach: Am I reading the hash-table dictionary of the Common Lisp HyperSpec right in that there are parameters for controlling when and how a hash table grows, but there is nothing about when to shrink it?
2019-10-27T15:49:51Z beach: And if I am right, is the implementation still allowed to shrink it when the number of entries is small compared to the current size?
2019-10-27T15:51:23Z Shinmera: Indeed it's not specified that it would ever shrink.
2019-10-27T15:51:42Z beach: Thanks for confirming.
2019-10-27T15:52:05Z Shinmera: I'm not sure whether it's expressly allowed or forbidden that it will shrink, but typical hash table usage patterns don't see shrinkage very often to begin with.
2019-10-27T15:52:20Z pfdietz92: Those values are only advisory anyway.
2019-10-27T15:52:21Z beach: I guess that's true.
2019-10-27T15:52:46Z beach: OK, thanks.
2019-10-27T15:53:21Z pfdietz92: I mostly ignore them.
2019-10-27T15:53:38Z beach: As a user, I definitely ignore them.
2019-10-27T15:53:55Z beach: But now, I have to implement the protocol.
2019-10-27T15:54:30Z Shinmera: I've only ever explicitly specified test and size.
2019-10-27T15:57:37Z beach: Different question (that may have been discussed, but I can't remember any consensus): I often have a system that implements standard stuff, like a hash table in this case.
2019-10-27T15:57:44Z beach: I would like to build it in two different ways, possibly with two different ASDF systems, but without too much code duplication.
2019-10-27T15:57:52Z beach: One system should assume that the system is built in the native implementation.
2019-10-27T15:57:57Z beach: The other one should build it so that the package definition shadows standard symbols.
2019-10-27T15:57:58Z beach: What is a good way of doing thsi?
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2019-10-27T15:58:54Z Shinmera: Can the two systems be loaded at the same time?
2019-10-27T15:59:07Z beach: That is not a requirement.
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2019-10-27T15:59:45Z beach: The second way is when I want to test the code in a host implementation, and I don't want to clobber the host code.
2019-10-27T15:59:59Z pfdietz92: Now, if you want to EXTEND the protocol, that leads to all sorts of interesting things.  Synchronization, weakness, specification of hash functions, new equality predicates.
2019-10-27T16:00:39Z Shinmera: beach: In the first case you could create a nickname for the target package you want to have your definitions land in, and in the latter case create a new package with that name directly.
2019-10-27T16:01:02Z Shinmera: you define these two behaviours in separate files and load one or the other depending on the system
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2019-10-27T16:01:37Z beach: Shinmera: Can you give an example?
2019-10-27T16:01:42Z beach: ... a small one.
2019-10-27T16:02:52Z beach: Maybe I understand.
2019-10-27T16:03:05Z beach: So two different package definitions.
2019-10-27T16:03:26Z Shinmera: I'm writing an example.
2019-10-27T16:03:26Z beach: The native one just does (:use #:common-lisp).
2019-10-27T16:03:31Z beach: Oh, OK.
2019-10-27T16:03:32Z pfdietz92: That would be my preference also.
2019-10-27T16:04:20Z Shinmera: I'm seeing another solution now that I think I prefer
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2019-10-27T16:06:54Z Shinmera: Something like this maybe https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1532#1532
2019-10-27T16:07:57Z beach: So, use reader conditionals.  OK.
2019-10-27T16:08:24Z Shinmera: The other idea would have been to use separate files, one file of which adds the custom-hash-table nickname to cl, and the other of which defines a custom-hash-table package.
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2019-10-27T16:09:22Z Shinmera: I suppose you could still do this without conditionals if you have access to the PLN protocol to add nicknames programmatically.
2019-10-27T16:09:40Z Shinmera: And then just split the behaviour across files again as before.
2019-10-27T16:10:10Z pfdietz92: I wonder if it's possible to virtualize packages and the reader in some way.    Read this form in a virtual lisp whose package naming does not affect the lisp it's embedded in.
2019-10-27T16:10:28Z pfdietz92: Well, obviously possible, but conveniently so.
2019-10-27T16:11:01Z beach: Shinmera: OK, I failed to communicate a requirement that is not fulfilled in your proposal.  The code must look "natural", i.e. there should be no package prefixes on CL symbols.
2019-10-27T16:11:23Z Shinmera: Oh. How would you do that without also accidentally interning things into the CL package then?
2019-10-27T16:11:34Z Shinmera: Since that would require you to be in-package CL
2019-10-27T16:11:55Z beach: In the host, the hash-table package would shadow the Common Lisp symbols.
2019-10-27T16:12:33Z beach: The COMMON-LISP package already has the symbols both in the host and in the target.
2019-10-27T16:12:40Z Shinmera: pfdietz92: I suppose you could get a long way there by reading things in a package that shadows CL & co. for another package that substitutes operations for your own that virtualise them.
2019-10-27T16:12:50Z Shinmera: *that uses PLNs to shadow
2019-10-27T16:13:16Z Shinmera: beach: I see.
2019-10-27T16:14:09Z beach: But I think I see how.  The native system has a component for creating a package with no shadowing.  Just (:USE #:CL).
2019-10-27T16:14:59Z beach: The host system has a different component that creates a package with the same  name, but it shadows the relevant symbols.
2019-10-27T16:15:20Z beach: The only problem is the duplication of the list of components in the two ASDF systems.
2019-10-27T16:15:59Z Shinmera: you could define a custom system class to embed that, but it would probably cost you more lines than it saves.
2019-10-27T16:16:07Z Shinmera: not to mention the headache of understanding it :)
2019-10-27T16:16:08Z beach: Yeah.
2019-10-27T16:16:14Z beach: Indeed.
2019-10-27T16:16:45Z beach: I'll try this out and maybe later I can figure out how to avoid the duplication.
2019-10-27T16:16:50Z beach: Thanks for all the help.
2019-10-27T16:21:36Z beach: Hmm, there is a problem.  If I have one or more "extension systems" depend on some "base system", say for different implementations of hash tables, the extension systems should not have to "know" which base system has been chosen.  More thinking is requirde.
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2019-10-27T16:21:41Z beach: required, even.
2019-10-27T16:23:15Z phoe: so you have a M-N relationship, it seems
2019-10-27T16:23:28Z beach: I hope not.
2019-10-27T16:23:30Z phoe: a multitude of base systems with another multitude of extensions
2019-10-27T16:23:51Z phoe: unless there is some way to form a M-1-N relationship
2019-10-27T16:23:51Z beach: Nope, every extension applies with the same code to every base.
2019-10-27T16:24:29Z phoe: Hm. Let's suppose you have BASE-FOO, BASE-BAR, BASE-BAZ. That is possible, correct?
2019-10-27T16:24:36Z phoe: And you have EXT-A, EXT-B, EXT-C.
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2019-10-27T16:24:48Z phoe: And I understand that every extension can apply to every base.
2019-10-27T16:24:53Z beach: By the way, this way of organizing packages is very interesting, and CLIM requires it, namely that the protocol symbols are the only symbols in the main package (as in CL or CLIM), and the implementation packages :USE the main package.  That way, random symbols in the implementation packages are local.
2019-10-27T16:25:21Z beach: phoe: I have BASE-FOO-NATIVE and BASE-FOO-HOST.
2019-10-27T16:25:24Z beach: That's it.
2019-10-27T16:25:41Z beach: The only difference is how the package is defined.
2019-10-27T16:26:04Z beach: So the code in the extensions is identical, no matter what base is chosen.
2019-10-27T16:26:16Z phoe: beach: OK, understood.
2019-10-27T16:26:58Z phoe: The way I see it, you could define a "protocol system" named BASE that requires either BASE-NATIVE or BASE-HOST as an implementation.
2019-10-27T16:27:09Z beach: Now, does ASDF guarantee the order between the :DEPENDS-ON systems?
2019-10-27T16:27:09Z phoe: And extensions then extend BASE rather than either of the two "implementing systems".
2019-10-27T16:27:33Z phoe: That would solve the M-N relationship I was thinking of.
2019-10-27T16:28:10Z beach: phoe: How do you define a system that requires either one system or the another one, and how is that determined?
2019-10-27T16:29:38Z beach: phoe: I suspect we are talking past each other.
2019-10-27T16:31:58Z beach: I need to think about this problem some more.  Maybe i will come up with a concrete, more detailed, example.
2019-10-27T16:33:42Z phoe: beach: :DEPENDS-ON is out of question, I think, since it means that the system depends on *all* of the mentioned dependencies, whereas we want a logical "or" - either one or the other.
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2019-10-27T16:38:37Z phoe: If I understand you correctly, then a good situation would be (defsystem :base :depends-on-either (:base-native :base-host) ...)
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2019-10-27T16:47:19Z beach: But I would need a mechanism to choose between the two.
2019-10-27T16:47:30Z beach: But yes, that would fix the problem.
2019-10-27T16:48:12Z beach: I guess some special variable and a #. would fix it.
2019-10-27T16:48:18Z phoe: What would actually mark the choice as made? Loading either of the two implementing ASDF systems?
2019-10-27T16:48:19Z beach: Or a reader conditional.
2019-10-27T16:49:14Z beach: Yes, I would like to do either (asdf:load-system :bla-native) or (asdf:load-system :bla-host)
2019-10-27T16:49:57Z phoe: what about (defsystem my-system :depends-on (:base :base-native) ...) then
2019-10-27T16:51:42Z beach: I don't see how that works.
2019-10-27T16:53:50Z phoe: oh wait, I misunderstood you
2019-10-27T16:53:52Z phoe: nevermind
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2019-10-27T17:43:54Z phoe: What is the current location for the fresh ANSI-TESTS?
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2019-10-27T17:46:03Z phoe: Found it - https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test
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2019-10-27T17:53:14Z pfdietz92: Not sure there's an "official" one.
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2019-10-27T17:53:54Z pfdietz92: I keep tweaking my own copy, mostly for new flavors of random testing.
2019-10-27T17:55:05Z phoe: well, that's a pain
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2019-10-27T17:55:53Z phoe: I'm trying to set up Travis CI for CCL and I'll want a test suite to run that isn't CCL's own ANSI-TEST suite, since it's outdated and needs to have CCL-specific tests factored out of it
2019-10-27T17:57:01Z phoe: in theory I could run both clnet's and your copies, nothing's wrong in running some tests twice other than for wasted time
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2019-10-27T18:08:46Z Rhedd: Funny political memes www.redpillmemes.com
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2019-10-27T18:21:38Z pjb: beach: but I thought it was a good idea that build the CL package by importing the symbols it will export (so it wouldn't have interned any other symbol). In that case, in both situation you can have your hash-table code in the same CL.HASH-TABLE package. The only difference, is that for the native case, you would add a system depending on the host system, adding a file to do this importing/re-exporting.
2019-10-27T18:22:52Z pjb: beach: (and yes, I'd advocate for multiple asd files instead of using conditionals, notably if it's #+/#-, for setting *features* is a hassle, and work normally only at read-time).
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2019-10-27T18:42:25Z pfdietz92: I would not recommend taking my copy.  I let control go for some years, and the current version needs to have some unfortunate changes removed.
2019-10-27T18:42:41Z pfdietz92: (logical pathnames, what?)
2019-10-27T18:43:26Z phoe: pfdietz92: OK. If you consider it worth your time, maybe you could backport some new tests of yours over to the clnet copy.
2019-10-27T18:43:32Z pfdietz92: Overall I need to separate out the random testing part.
2019-10-27T18:44:06Z phoe: I see
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2019-10-27T18:46:26Z pfdietz92: There are really three parts:   the original "small" tests against the standard, the differential compiler testing part with large random forms, and a set of type propagation tests ("RTP" test).   All under ansi-tests, but otherwise not much overlap.
2019-10-27T18:47:17Z pfdietz92: Most recent SBCL bug finds are from improvements to the last part.
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2019-10-27T18:47:43Z pfdietz92: There's also some mutation-based test generation sitting around somewhere, which I have never released.
2019-10-27T18:49:12Z pfdietz92: This was: troll through quicklisp and various public lisps packages for code fragments, randomly splice and mutate these, then see if the compiler can be made to blow up.  This was for SBCL, where the compiler is never supposed to throw an error.
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2019-10-27T20:14:51Z jackdaniel: logical pathnames are removed for some time already
2019-10-27T20:15:02Z jackdaniel: just saying
2019-10-27T20:16:40Z jackdaniel: pfdietz92: ^
2019-10-27T20:16:58Z pfdietz92: Cool, thanks :)
2019-10-27T20:17:52Z pfdietz92: If I've been told that before and forgotten, I blame age.
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2019-10-27T20:18:34Z jackdaniel: you've been ;)
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2019-10-28T00:17:51Z ebzzry: What is a good REST server for CL?
2019-10-28T00:19:19Z phoe: ebzzry: https://github.com/mmontone/cl-rest-server but I haven't used it yet
2019-10-28T00:19:31Z phoe: only read about it (and its manual) some time ago
2019-10-28T00:29:36Z ebzzry: phoe: thanks!
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2019-10-28T01:04:47Z phoe: I just noticed that https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test seems to have no instructions whatsoever for running them on CCL.
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2019-10-28T01:07:24Z phoe: OK, I'll leave it as-is for the time being. I'll play with ansi-tests tomorrow.
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2019-10-28T02:03:58Z pfdietz92: It could use some user friendliness.
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2019-10-28T05:44:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-28T05:44:50Z beach: pjb: I would think the symbols would have the wrong home package if you do that.
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2019-10-28T05:54:01Z pjb: beach: indeed. 1- note that the CL standard doesn't specify that the symbols exported from CL must have CL as home package (IIRC). 2- you can "move" those symbols in CL, instead of just import/exporting them, by unintern/importing them.
2019-10-28T05:57:56Z beach: For 1. I prefer it that way, and 2 sounds more complicated than the usual solution.
2019-10-28T05:58:33Z beach: But thanks for your suggestions.
2019-10-28T05:58:45Z beach: I'll take them into account in my further thinking.
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2019-10-28T06:00:30Z beach: Like I said, I would like for the native version to look as "natural" as possible.
2019-10-28T06:00:52Z beach: If anything must look strange, it should be the extrinsic version.
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2019-10-28T06:11:49Z beach: pjb: And you are right, in section 11.1.2.1 the Common Lisp HyperSpec says "but their home package need not be the COMMON-LISP package".
2019-10-28T06:11:55Z beach: clhs 11.1.2.1
2019-10-28T06:11:55Z specbot: The COMMON-LISP Package: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_aba.htm
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2019-10-28T06:47:02Z pjb: beach: probably the simpliest is just to have two systems each using a different package-<…>.lisp file.
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2019-10-28T06:56:57Z beach: pjb: Yes, except for the problem of duplication in each sub-system (or extension) that I mentioned.
2019-10-28T06:57:06Z beach: But that's what I will do, at least at first.
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2019-10-28T07:05:04Z beach: I guess the problem here is that ASDF can take only constant names of packages and systems that it depends on, and perhaps that the system name and the file name must correspond.
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2019-10-28T07:05:57Z jackdaniel: beach: in principle that is not true, you may specialize asdf functions on your own component types and compute dynamically names of systems
2019-10-28T07:06:04Z beach: Er, not packages, I mean component names, one of which is the one where the package is specified.
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2019-10-28T07:06:10Z jackdaniel: and component names*
2019-10-28T07:06:28Z jackdaniel: if you need it I may try to write a small PoC for you later today (or tomorrow)
2019-10-28T07:06:29Z beach: And I would do that if I could find the information in the ASDF manual, but I can't.
2019-10-28T07:06:40Z beach: Oh, that would be great.
2019-10-28T07:06:47Z beach: Thanks.
2019-10-28T07:06:51Z jackdaniel: OK, I'm adding it to my todo
2019-10-28T07:06:52Z jackdaniel: sure
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2019-10-28T07:10:34Z beach: You can charge me for your time.
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2019-10-28T07:10:39Z beach: I know you are busy.
2019-10-28T07:10:58Z beach: This is the kind of stuff I would gladly pay for someone to do for me.
2019-10-28T07:11:14Z jackdaniel: no worries, it will take me only a couple minutes. I will add them to the time spent on clovetree
2019-10-28T07:11:23Z beach: Perfect.
2019-10-28T07:13:39Z pjb: beach: you can always use #.*some-component-name* in the asd file. But the problem is that asd introduces an additionnal "time": asd file loading time, which is not necessarily merged with the load-op or compile-op time. (asdf doesn't reload asd files that haven't changed when you re-load-op or re-compile-op  a system).
2019-10-28T07:14:34Z pjb: beach: this is why using #+ is also not a very good solution.
2019-10-28T07:15:13Z jackdaniel: asdf since version 3 supports :if-feature option for components
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2019-10-28T07:27:25Z beach: pjb: I believe you.
2019-10-28T07:29:36Z pjb: :if-feature sounds interesting.
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2019-10-28T07:52:22Z flip214: to reload some _files_ in an asd, on linux you can insert a (serial) dependency on #P"/proc/meminfo" or similar. These always have a current timestamp, so all later files will get reloaded.
2019-10-28T07:52:33Z flip214: don't believe that works for the defsystem, though...
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2019-10-28T10:25:00Z beach: So for the SICL hash tables, I ended up with 4 files in the global system that are specific to the extrinsic version.  And for each sub system defining a particular implementation, I ended up with 3 such specific files.
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2019-10-28T10:27:24Z jackdaniel: beach: something like this: https://github.com/dkochmanski/dynamic-asdf-system
2019-10-28T10:27:49Z jackdaniel: interesting files are asdf-hacks.lisp and dsys.asd
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2019-10-28T10:30:04Z rixard: Cymew: I suspected it was you, and the WHOIS confirmed it ^^ I'll take the rest via PM
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2019-10-28T10:31:33Z beach: jackdaniel: Thanks.  I'll study the code carefully.
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2019-10-28T11:15:14Z aindilis: anyone with any experience in AI planning interested in working together to write an open source version of this: ftp://ftp.cs.washington.edu/tr/1997/11/UW-CSE-97-11-05.pdf   here is an example domain (reposting): https://frdcsa.org/~andrewdo/software/domains.lisp
2019-10-28T11:23:22Z dmiles: aindilis: so it runs on either LWC or UCCINI Planner?
2019-10-28T11:23:29Z dmiles: PUCCINI*
2019-10-28T11:24:35Z aindilis: I'm not sure but it probably runs on PUCCINI, however LCW is I think just the notion they use along the lines of open/closed world (stands for local closed world)
2019-10-28T11:24:41Z aindilis: here is another paper
2019-10-28T11:25:02Z aindilis: ftp://ftp.cs.washington.edu/tr/1993/09/UW-CSE-93-09-01.pdf
2019-10-28T11:26:03Z dmiles: just in case you didnt see.. there is these slides as well https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse574/03sp/slides/15-softbots.ppt
2019-10-28T11:26:09Z aindilis: ty!
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2019-10-28T11:27:37Z aindilis: part of the problem is I cannot wrap my head around LCW
2019-10-28T11:28:54Z dmiles: LCW is its KB/Bloackboard?
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2019-10-28T11:29:33Z aindilis: I don't think so
2019-10-28T11:30:00Z aindilis: local closed world is like it has complete knowledge of a partial part of an open world or something like that
2019-10-28T11:30:08Z aindilis: I'll find the examples, one sec
2019-10-28T11:31:28Z aindilis: see p.g. 15 of the thesis, the questions in the middle
2019-10-28T11:31:40Z aindilis: 1.3.4 Local CLosed world reasoning
2019-10-28T11:32:28Z aindilis: ah so if you know about "closed roles" in LOOM, then that's equivlaent
2019-10-28T11:33:41Z aindilis: hey wow, from your paper: http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/rpetrick/software/pks/
2019-10-28T11:33:47Z aindilis: *presentation
2019-10-28T11:34:11Z dmiles: what the softbot knows.. its part of the LCW databse/blackboard
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2019-10-28T11:34:48Z dmiles: like disk structure appears in LCW database
2019-10-28T11:35:00Z aindilis: ah kk
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2019-10-28T11:35:59Z dmiles: "Since it knows all the files in papers, and it doesn't know about file "foo", it follows that foo is not in papers. If there hadn't been such an lcw formula, the agent would have concluded that it didn't know."
2019-10-28T11:37:19Z dmiles: after moves file foo someplace it updates lcw
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2019-10-28T11:39:04Z aindilis: kk
2019-10-28T11:39:19Z aindilis: I'm looking to email Petrick asking for some of his planning systems
2019-10-28T11:39:22Z dmiles: i guess what you have to do is find a planner impl good enough to run the domain file
2019-10-28T11:39:41Z aindilis: yeah Petrick's PKS  is a candidate
2019-10-28T11:39:56Z aindilis: http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/rpetrick/software/
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2019-10-28T11:43:13Z aindilis: http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/rpetrick/software/pks/releases.html
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2019-10-28T11:46:21Z dmiles: you have to find someting else he has for downlaod to see how he organizes directories
2019-10-28T11:46:35Z aindilis: well I'm emailing him now
2019-10-28T11:46:40Z aindilis: finally found his email
2019-10-28T11:46:50Z aindilis: I guessed a few urls but no luck
2019-10-28T11:53:28Z aindilis: k sent
2019-10-28T11:53:36Z aindilis: cc'd you
2019-10-28T11:55:51Z aindilis: uh oh, that doc says PKS has no LCW
2019-10-28T11:57:05Z aindilis: ah well PKS will be useful anyway, if he sends PKS I will ask for P^2
2019-10-28T11:57:32Z aindilis: http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/rpetrick/software/p2/
2019-10-28T11:58:06Z aindilis: ty for your help
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2019-10-28T12:17:28Z aindilis: found this while search for LCW http://rakaposhi.eas.asu.edu/btamp-09.pdf  and found the corresponding SAPA and SAPAReplan systems
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2019-10-28T12:18:29Z aindilis: "This can be seen as a complementary approach to handling open world environments using local closed world (LCW) information produced by sensing actions (Etzioni, Golden, and Weld 1997)."
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2019-10-28T13:56:06Z q[corwin]: Greetings!  I'd like to compose a function that accepts nested other-keys, can this be done without knowing the set of valid keys are at compile time?  i.e.: (my/func :foo { :bar "Hello, world!")) ;; thanks in advance for any tips.
2019-10-28T13:56:51Z q[corwin]: ;; that curley brace should be an open paren if that's not obv
2019-10-28T13:58:24Z beach: What does it mean to "compose a function"?  What is an "other-key"?  And whaat are "nested keys"?
2019-10-28T13:58:57Z beach: Sorry, I am notoriously bad at filling in blanks that might be obvious to others.
2019-10-28T14:00:21Z phoe: q[corwin]: (my/func :foo (:bar "Hello, world!")) is invalid lisp
2019-10-28T14:00:28Z phoe: unless you define a function named :BAR
2019-10-28T14:07:24Z p_l: my/func can work this way if it's a macro
2019-10-28T14:07:46Z p_l: otherwise it needs to be (my/func :foo '(:bar "Hello, World!"))
2019-10-28T14:08:07Z beach: So I guess my questions turned out to be valid.
2019-10-28T14:11:54Z q[corwin]: p_l: macro sounds hopeful. and probably correct for me. can you give me a hint (of what to read so I learn) how that might look?
2019-10-28T14:12:27Z beach: q[corwin]: How about answering my questions?
2019-10-28T14:12:50Z q[corwin]: beach: sorry.  I was going for something like (cl-defun &rest keyword-map) where keyword map will contain keyword maps.
2019-10-28T14:13:35Z q[corwin]: beach: working on it, meng.  some of us aren't awesome at this. appreciate everyone's patience.
2019-10-28T14:19:11Z jackdaniel: cl-defun seems like some compatibility layer for common lisp (i.e not common lisp)
2019-10-28T14:19:42Z beach: I fear that I am not going to understand the problem here.
2019-10-28T14:20:52Z beach: For example, a new term was just introduced, namely a "keyword map".
2019-10-28T14:21:56Z q[corwin]: beach: compose a function: use cl-defun or similar.  recursive keys meaning keyword can be given values that contain keyword/value pairs and the nested keywords are also not known by the function implemention at compile-time.
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2019-10-28T14:22:14Z beach: q[corwin]: What is cl-defun?
2019-10-28T14:23:28Z p_l: q[corwin]: that said, #emacs might be more adequate place, given cl-defun
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2019-10-28T14:24:16Z q[corwin]: ohhh.  Is the answer going to be different in an emacs context?  I can *not* use emacs if that makes a difference..
2019-10-28T14:24:34Z ggole: You can pass arbitrary argument lists. The compose operations doesn't need to care what is in them, or how they are interpreted by the composed functions.
2019-10-28T14:24:41Z p_l: ah, in general, elisp is a bit different semantically
2019-10-28T14:25:08Z p_l: some scoping changed to fit more scheme/CL way recently, but has to be explicitly required
2019-10-28T14:25:11Z q[corwin]: p_l: imoortant safety tip. ty
2019-10-28T14:25:33Z ggole: Something like (defun compose (f g) (lambda (&rest args) (funcall f (apply g args)))), I guess (not tested)
2019-10-28T14:26:24Z jackdaniel: if it is for a class introducing common lisp then you have some to catch up
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2019-10-28T14:26:43Z q[corwin]: ggole: /that/ looks like the sort of thing I should be reading about.  I will go read about compose.  Thanks for the all of the assistance @here
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2019-10-28T14:35:41Z ebrasca: How to expand cl standard with new features? ( Like secure delete for files )
2019-10-28T14:36:17Z beach: ebrasca: Depends on what you mean by "expand cl standard".
2019-10-28T14:36:32Z beach: ebrasca: You can just add stuff like that as a library.
2019-10-28T14:36:51Z ebrasca: beach: I like to add secure delete of files to Mezzano.
2019-10-28T14:37:03Z beach: What is preventing you?
2019-10-28T14:37:14Z ebrasca: How to do it?
2019-10-28T14:37:54Z beach: That just seems like lack of knowledge, and not a question about expanding the standard.  What am I missing?
2019-10-28T14:38:16Z ebrasca: Someting like this (delete-file filespec :secure-delete-p t) ?
2019-10-28T14:38:24Z ebrasca: Or some gloval policy?
2019-10-28T14:39:41Z beach: You are not allowed to add keyword arguments to a function that does not already have some.  At least that is what I remember from the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2019-10-28T14:40:25Z beach: So if I am right, it would have to be a Mezzano-specific function.
2019-10-28T14:40:39Z ebrasca: In Mezzano It have allow-other-keys ...
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2019-10-28T14:42:46Z beach: I may be wrong about the additional keyword parameters.  I can't find the relevant information right now.
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2019-10-28T14:55:38Z beach: ebrasca: I think I may have been wrong about that.
2019-10-28T14:55:57Z beach: ebrasca: It seems you may be allowed to add a keyword parameter to a standard function.
2019-10-28T14:57:03Z beach: I would like to see what other #lisp participants think about it.
2019-10-28T14:57:45Z lieven: you can't have extra return values to a standard function. I don't recall anything about disallowing extra keyword parameters
2019-10-28T14:57:56Z beach: Yeah.
2019-10-28T14:58:04Z beach: clhs 1.6
2019-10-28T14:58:04Z specbot: Language Extensions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_f.htm
2019-10-28T14:58:06Z lieven: in general the philosophy is that a comforming program keeps working as inteded
2019-10-28T14:58:10Z lieven: *intended
2019-10-28T14:58:15Z beach: Right.
2019-10-28T14:58:54Z beach: ebrasca: So you can just go ahead and add another keyword parameter.
2019-10-28T14:58:57Z lieven: calling a standard function with keyword parameters not defined in the standard would otherwise be treated as an error and extensions are free to define meaning for those
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2019-10-28T15:00:45Z lieven: I've never seen this stated explicitly in the spec but it's generally assumed that an implementation is free to make every standard function a generic function
2019-10-28T15:00:59Z beach: That I think is true.
2019-10-28T15:01:20Z beach: I intend to make several of the standard function generic in SICL.
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2019-10-28T15:02:16Z beach: For instance, I have (defclass symbol ((%name ... :reader symbol-name)) (:metaclass built-in-class))
2019-10-28T15:02:26Z beach: So SYMBOL-NAME is generic.
2019-10-28T15:03:26Z beach: GENERIC-FUNCTION is a subclass of FUNCTION after all.
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2019-10-28T15:04:22Z lieven: I had also totally missed or forgotten 3.4.1.4.1
2019-10-28T15:04:43Z lieven: you can decide to allow-other-keys at the call side of a function, not just the definition side
2019-10-28T15:05:33Z beach: Oh yes.  Ask me about it.
2019-10-28T15:05:36Z beach: :)
2019-10-28T15:05:48Z beach: I had to implement that for argument parsing.
2019-10-28T15:06:28Z lieven: I'm a bit at a loss to find a use for it
2019-10-28T15:06:59Z jdz: I once came up with a legitimate use in the context of Hunchentoot.
2019-10-28T15:07:01Z dlowe: mostly used for passing arguments through a function
2019-10-28T15:07:20Z dlowe: but you still want to enforce the key-value calling style
2019-10-28T15:17:35Z pjb: beach: you forgot the list of superclasses in your defclass symbol.
2019-10-28T15:18:10Z beach: Oops, right.
2019-10-28T15:18:20Z beach: it is just (t).
2019-10-28T15:18:28Z aeth: Let's say you have a higher order function that calls a function with the keyword argument bar. Now add baz. Now without :allow-other-keys t your update is a breaking API change even though many keyword arguments are optional and the change shouldn't break
2019-10-28T15:18:44Z aeth: So 3.4.1.4.1 is useful
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2019-10-28T16:40:02Z ebrasca: I am thinking my delete with extra key arguments now give error in sbcl.
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2019-10-28T16:40:55Z beach: ebrasca: That should not surprise you.
2019-10-28T16:42:06Z ebrasca: What is the point of adding if it don't work.
2019-10-28T16:42:11Z beach: ebrasca: If the Common Lisp HyperSpec does not mention that a keyword parameter exists, then the implementation has no obligation to support it.
2019-10-28T16:42:28Z beach: ebrasca: You were talking about Mezzano, not SBCL.
2019-10-28T16:42:36Z ebrasca: Does CL have someting like secure delete of files?
2019-10-28T16:43:26Z _death: if clhs wants to allow additional keywords, it at least specifies &key.. e.g., DIRECTORY
2019-10-28T16:44:11Z ebrasca: _death: What about making sure all data is overwriten whe deleting files?
2019-10-28T16:45:12Z _death: ebrasca: you can have your own operator for that, or pass the option in a different way (say special variable)
2019-10-28T16:47:47Z phoe: ebrasca: not really. It's up to the OS to ensure that data cannot be recovered.
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2019-10-28T16:48:40Z phoe: In some cases (e.g. in case of copy-on-write filesystems), it might be impossible to shred the contents of a file without an intervention of the filesystem driver.
2019-10-28T16:49:26Z ebrasca: phoe: What about Mezzano , and what if you don't like to lose time in deleting it?
2019-10-28T16:50:13Z phoe: Mezzano is an OS itself and has direct access to the filesystem drivers, so it can likely implement something like that itself.
2019-10-28T16:50:30Z phoe: There is nothing in the standard about shredding file contents on deletion though.
2019-10-28T16:51:17Z ebrasca: Can I make sure in sbcl data is destroyed or not?
2019-10-28T16:51:22Z phoe: No.
2019-10-28T16:52:00Z phoe: SBCL can be running on Linux that is running ZFS with snapshots. This means that e.g. the system administrator can use ZFS's snapshot functionality to restore the file.
2019-10-28T16:52:12Z _death: but ebrasca, didn't you also implement the filesystem?
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2019-10-28T16:52:45Z phoe: So it is actually impossible for SBCL to ensure that data is actually destroyed. It would need to hook into the underlying OS to have that.
2019-10-28T16:52:48Z ebrasca: Yea , fat write and read and ext only read.
2019-10-28T16:53:02Z ebrasca: _death: ^
2019-10-28T16:53:54Z _death: so you know, up to a certain level, what happens when you write a byte
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2019-10-28T16:54:32Z _death: in any case this is an implementation detail.. I thought you asked about the interface
2019-10-28T17:00:43Z ebrasca: Thanks for helping!
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2019-10-28T17:19:35Z dlowe: I have a historical question: Say I have a lisp machine (or some lisp-image-on-hardware setup) and I have a program running a server program, presumably on a thread
2019-10-28T17:19:51Z dlowe: How do I run a different version of the same program without definitions colliding
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2019-10-28T17:34:15Z Shinmera: package tricks are currently the only real option, unless the application implements its own versioning scheme protocol.
2019-10-28T17:35:27Z housel: In practice I suspect that was seldom done
2019-10-28T17:36:19Z housel: Who needs different versions anyhow? was the prevalent attitude in the 80s
2019-10-28T17:36:46Z Shinmera: It is, still, for a lot of people and systems today :)
2019-10-28T17:37:32Z phoe: just spin up another vm™
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2019-10-28T17:41:01Z ebrasca: Do someone need diferent versions of someting?
2019-10-28T17:41:58Z Shinmera: Software might have different version dependencies, so you won't be able to run two pieces of software unless they agree on the versions, or you can have multiple versions at once.
2019-10-28T17:42:19Z ebrasca: Why?
2019-10-28T17:42:20Z dlowe: I'm thinking more of just separating prod and dev
2019-10-28T17:42:24Z Shinmera: If you need high availability, being able to keep multiple versions at once can also be very helpful, as you don't need to stop the service.
2019-10-28T17:42:28Z p_l: you could do first-class environments as in SICL
2019-10-28T17:43:32Z ebrasca: Shinmera: I think it is called Dependency hell.
2019-10-28T17:43:40Z phoe: that would be a very good solution, yes
2019-10-28T17:43:50Z p_l: ebrasca: no, dependency hell is when you have conflicting dependencies you can't sandbox
2019-10-28T17:43:51Z dlowe: okay, yes, that could work
2019-10-28T17:43:59Z Shinmera: dependency hell is a symptom of dependency conflicts.
2019-10-28T17:44:21Z Shinmera: p_l: Unfortunately nobody supports FCGL
2019-10-28T17:44:22Z phoe: standard common lisp behaviour is to invoke dependency hell when you try to load version 2 and version 3 of the same package
2019-10-28T17:44:25Z dlowe: I was just wondering if there was something used besides another running image
2019-10-28T17:44:28Z Shinmera: *FCGE
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2019-10-28T17:45:26Z edgar-rft: Yeah, nobody needs versions, let's all use Lisp 1.5
2019-10-28T17:45:38Z Shinmera: And given that nobody has them, nor used them, the possibility of using them for resolving version conflicts is only theoretical at this point
2019-10-28T17:45:55Z phoe: edgar-rft: if nobody needs versions then why is your lisp versioned 1.5
2019-10-28T17:46:16Z edgar-rft: phoe: it wasn't me who named it so
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2019-10-28T17:47:32Z edgar-rft: I wasn't even born at that time (most perfect excuse ever)
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2019-10-28T18:36:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: jackdaniel: create-insights-indexes.sh
2019-10-28T18:37:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: sorry, pasted into the wrong place :)
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2019-10-28T18:42:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: dlowe: package renaming "works", as long as you don't have anything that depends on the package name
2019-10-28T18:43:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've occasionally thought of writing some ASDF hooks to record the packages created while a system is being loaded
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2019-10-28T18:46:25Z jackdaniel: peending: creating insights indexes...
2019-10-28T18:46:30Z jackdaniel: operation failed: operation failed.
2019-10-28T18:46:54Z jackdaniel: operation failed: success. ;; to quote one brilliant windows quirk.
2019-10-28T18:47:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2019-10-28T18:49:18Z ggole: That's more the C stdlib than anything
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2019-10-28T22:53:20Z no-defun-allowed: Is there anything like sb-sprof for Clozure?
2019-10-28T22:54:08Z no-defun-allowed: I found SAM <https://github.com/eugeneia/sam> which is pretty good (with some hacks to run better on ARM32) but it's still a little lacking.
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2019-10-28T23:10:24Z p_l: li
2019-10-28T23:10:31Z p_l: (wrong window)
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2019-10-29T00:10:09Z pjb: p_l: ..sp (right window)
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2019-10-29T00:26:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: maven clean instsall
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2019-10-29T00:56:52Z White_Flame: From inside a custom lexing/parsing reader, which is consuming large swathes of the input, how do I indicate up to SLIME where the location of an error is?
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2019-10-29T01:06:00Z naryl: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-29T01:06:00Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=6f1f9b02 will be valid until 01:15 UTC.
2019-10-29T01:06:22Z naryl: I can use gitlab.common-lisp.net for any project as long as it's open source and mostly in Common Lisp, right?
2019-10-29T01:08:27Z naryl: > Your account has been blocked. Please contact your GitLab administrator if you think this is an error.
2019-10-29T01:10:18Z naryl: Well, how do I reach the administrator?
2019-10-29T01:38:15Z dgtlcmo: does anyone have a symbolics space cadet or lisp machine keyboard?
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2019-10-29T01:47:02Z dgtlcmo: how is anyone coding in LISP efficiently without one of these keyboards?
2019-10-29T01:47:50Z ArthurStrong: dgtlcmo: imagine so
2019-10-29T01:47:51Z pjb: dgtlcmo: easy: get yourself a blank DasKeyboard (105 keys). Use xmodmap and emacs to map the keys as you wish to be efficient.
2019-10-29T01:48:23Z pjb: dgtlcmo: https://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-ultimate/
2019-10-29T01:48:28Z dgtlcmo: pjb: pjb
2019-10-29T01:48:42Z dgtlcmo: pjb: it lacks enough keys to the left of tab
2019-10-29T01:49:57Z dgtlcmo: pjb: i.e. enough to do a 30 degree rotate of the hand for meta or control.  i think the SAIL keyboard calls the key near tab ALT MODE
2019-10-29T01:50:18Z pjb: dgtlcmo: but it has a lot of keys to the right, the so called "numpad".  Make them function keys!
2019-10-29T01:50:51Z pjb: dgtlcmo: and if you want more key, I told you: build your own keyboard!
2019-10-29T01:51:03Z dgtlcmo: dgtlcmo: how can i build my own?
2019-10-29T01:52:30Z dgtlcmo: actually the kinesis freestyle pro has keys for this
2019-10-29T01:54:48Z pjb: there are a lot of tutorials on youtube about DIY keyboard building.
2019-10-29T01:55:38Z White_Flame: dgtlcmo: common lisp doesn't require any characters beyond the basic ASCII charset
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2019-10-29T01:57:09Z White_Flame: also, why stop at only the space cadet? https://i.imgur.com/1nRp5UO.jpg
2019-10-29T01:58:03Z dgtlcmo: White_Flame: that's a nice one, but not very minimalistic
2019-10-29T01:58:17Z dgtlcmo: It does have MODE in a better place
2019-10-29T01:58:34Z dgtlcmo: and it's USB... where is that keyboard from?
2019-10-29T01:58:41Z no-defun-allowed wonders how SYMBOL got all the way over there
2019-10-29T01:58:52Z White_Flame: it was a custom one-off
2019-10-29T01:58:59Z dgtlcmo: by who where?
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2019-10-29T02:00:08Z dgtlcmo: White_Flame: do you know where to find the owner?
2019-10-29T02:00:21Z White_Flame: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/7wubx0/i_hear_space_cadet_is_popular/du378f1/
2019-10-29T02:00:45Z White_Flame: the keycap set predated it, and was produced by someone else
2019-10-29T02:03:34Z White_Flame: (I'd much rather have onscreen compose tips than a massive keyboard like that)
2019-10-29T02:04:36Z White_Flame: also lol at the space non-bar
2019-10-29T02:04:49Z pjb: dgtlcmo: you should stop worrying about keyboards, and use emacs a little more.  The efficiency comes from using emacs efficiently (slime, paredit, abbrev, binding your own keys, etc).
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2019-10-29T02:05:43Z dgtlcmo: well, i was scared when i saw a developer at my old job who was an avid emacs user with scards down his wrist from carpal surgery.  he even had a kinesis keyboard setup
2019-10-29T02:06:21Z White_Flame: given the amount of non-emacs carpal tunnel out there from desk jockeys of all stripes, I doubt it's emacs-related
2019-10-29T02:06:24Z dgtlcmo: pjb: do you have a particular set of keybindings you use with emacs? what keyboard are you using?
2019-10-29T02:07:20Z aeth: There's only one true way to use Emacs: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=emacs+foot+pedals
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2019-10-29T02:08:04Z aeth: fwiw, I can program all day with no issues, but if I game all day, that's going to kill my hands the next day
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2019-10-29T06:53:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-29T06:57:26Z edgar-rft: The early bird catches the worm, what makes me think that morning is probably not so good if you're a worm.
2019-10-29T07:00:32Z jackdaniel: there was a story about a frozen bird in this spirit, quick search in my favourite search engine which doesn't start with G gave me this reddit link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/1j0h49/the_frozen_bird/ :)
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2019-10-29T10:46:41Z luis: Has anyone implemented a compatibility library around excl:fwrap, sb-int:enscapsulate, etc?
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2019-10-29T11:03:42Z Shinmera: What does that do?
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2019-10-29T11:05:40Z phoe: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/2603efb1b07513ade0a5fdbebf1a16bd923bc937/src/code/fdefinition.lisp?ts=8#L249
2019-10-29T11:06:45Z Shinmera: What would you do with that? An attempt at a portable TRACE or something?
2019-10-29T11:07:49Z luis: Yes, among other things.
2019-10-29T11:08:50Z luis: It's useful for monkey patching, too. Not that I recommend monkey patching at home.
2019-10-29T11:11:54Z scymtym: Shinmera: this hybrid (deterministic/statistical) profiler uses the encapsulation facility: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/clamegraph-rewrite-1.ogv (the video doesn't reflect the current state but conveys the basic idea)
2019-10-29T11:12:15Z Shinmera: nice
2019-10-29T11:13:38Z Shinmera: luis: If you make a portability library, let me know so I can add it to the overview.
2019-10-29T11:14:44Z luis: Aye.
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2019-10-29T11:21:54Z luis: SBCL doesn't support tracing flets and labels does it?
2019-10-29T11:23:22Z scymtym: i think ENCAPSULATE would work with the function object, but there is no way to refer to local functions in TRACE
2019-10-29T11:24:14Z luis: scymtym: is there a way to grab the local functions at all?
2019-10-29T11:25:21Z Shinmera: how would you?
2019-10-29T11:25:51Z phoe: upi
2019-10-29T11:25:54Z phoe: I mean uhhh
2019-10-29T11:26:26Z phoe: you'd need to crack the function object to get its references to local functions
2019-10-29T11:26:49Z Shinmera: often the functions might not even be there at all
2019-10-29T11:27:02Z scymtym: i thought something like (labels ((foo ())) (encapsulate #'foo)) could work but ENCAPSULATE seems to assume global functions
2019-10-29T11:27:02Z phoe: e.g. inling and such
2019-10-29T11:30:39Z scymtym: there is also ENCAPSULATE-FUNOBJ (added two weeks ago) which might work, but i haven't looked into it
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2019-10-29T11:37:24Z luis: phoe: FWIW, Allegro CL supports tracing labels/flet. It seems like it may be only one of the few Lisps that supports that.
2019-10-29T11:41:49Z p_l: in compiled code as well?
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2019-10-29T11:47:58Z phoe: Has anyone succeeded running the modern ANSI-TEST on CCL?
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2019-10-29T11:49:09Z phoe: ...ooooh. I see now. OK - I've finally managed to run them.
2019-10-29T11:50:56Z luis: p_l: yes.
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2019-10-29T13:04:57Z lukego: Hey is anyone else doing Lisp with Nix? I'm open to see tricks and snippets if anybody has them. I've found ql2nix and that seems to work pretty well for making a stable Lisp distro
2019-10-29T13:07:05Z Cymew: What the heck is "nix"?
2019-10-29T13:08:14Z Bike: https://nixos.org/
2019-10-29T13:11:11Z lukego: Yeah, it's a package manager of sorts.
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2019-10-29T14:23:14Z Xach: lukego: a few people talk about it from time to time - MichaelRaskin for one, buffergn0me for two - a few others
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2019-10-29T14:36:43Z p_l: lukego: I know of people who gave Lisp as reasons for abandoning NixOS
2019-10-29T14:36:59Z Xach: nooo
2019-10-29T14:37:09Z p_l: in my practical experience it felt good as deployment target but development was often problematic, not just with lisp
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2019-10-29T15:22:34Z phoe: Hey #lisp - I would like a review for the Travis configuration that I have prepared for the CCL repository.
2019-10-29T15:22:39Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe-trash/ccl/commit/efa46513e9a362a0bef8c47f3969d2948f86af04
2019-10-29T15:23:16Z phoe: The Travis build that has just started for this commit is available at https://travis-ci.com/phoe-trash/ccl/builds/134026306
2019-10-29T15:23:31Z Cymew: Very creative to implement your own distro since you were fed up with existing package managers.
2019-10-29T15:23:50Z phoe: The build overall is supposed to fail, since ANSI-TEST and CCL-TESTS are currently failing.
2019-10-29T15:24:02Z phoe: Cymew: smells like /xkcd standards
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2019-10-29T16:55:01Z rumbler3113: alright lispers, coming at you with what is likely a noob question
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2019-10-29T17:10:33Z rumbler3113: I threw together a freeform datastructure that sorta looks like a parameter list.  I was thinking I'd be able to throw in "tags" that have no value into this list, for example '(scan 1 :check "grep this" fix "cat that" :optional)
2019-10-29T17:11:04Z rumbler3113: with the idea that users of the format could throw things in and I'd later be able to check for either assignment to a key or the presence or absence of given tags
2019-10-29T17:11:38Z rumbler3113: I am now coming to realize that I am essentially trying to reimplement destructuring-bind on lambda lists where I am supplying a malformed lambda list
2019-10-29T17:12:07Z dlowe: how would you distinguish between your keys and your tags?
2019-10-29T17:12:19Z rumbler3113: that seems to be the question I haven't answered
2019-10-29T17:12:41Z dlowe: your "tags" could just be keys with T as their value
2019-10-29T17:12:56Z dlowe: anyway, you might want to look at getf
2019-10-29T17:12:58Z dlowe: clhs getf
2019-10-29T17:12:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm
2019-10-29T17:13:04Z rumbler3113: while it might sound silly, I was hoping to avoid requiring the users to type in the t
2019-10-29T17:13:54Z Bike: ...the values?
2019-10-29T17:16:02Z rumbler3113: so I was trying to be loose enough with the input that would allow a user to say something like (there's some special property about this check that I'd like to track" and give them a way of adding say :property1 to the list without needing to say :property1 t
2019-10-29T17:16:36Z rumbler3113: I suppose I could post process the final input and add a t to every unpaired property
2019-10-29T17:17:00Z sjl_: (:a :b :c) which is the unpaired property there?
2019-10-29T17:17:28Z sjl_: is :b the value of :a, or is :a unpaired? etc
2019-10-29T17:17:44Z rumbler3113: :c so I guess I am also expecting that symbols that aren't keys or properties won't be actual values
2019-10-29T17:18:01Z rumbler3113: but I see the point
2019-10-29T17:18:01Z sjl_: I don't know what your use case is, but as a user I find it valuable when things work consistently with the rest of the language, even if it's a tiny bit more typing for me
2019-10-29T17:18:38Z sjl_: being able to say "it's just standard keyword args" is preferable to learning a custom thing, even though I have to type a couple extra chars sometimes
2019-10-29T17:22:19Z rumbler3113: I read just enough of all of this to be dangerous.  I'll just postprocess the input when its all done
2019-10-29T17:22:55Z rumbler3113: these are non lisp users and their expectations are what I give them, so I'll just tell them to add the t and I'll clean up the rest
2019-10-29T17:23:38Z rumbler3113: and this does explain a strange bug I ran into years ago....
2019-10-29T17:24:13Z rumbler3113: its almost like I want a combination of rest and key
2019-10-29T17:24:44Z rumbler3113: but I would have to guarantee that all of the loose arguments come before any of the keys
2019-10-29T17:27:41Z dlowe: so it sounds like to me that you don't want your users to get a repl
2019-10-29T17:27:55Z dlowe: so parse the string you get from your user however you want
2019-10-29T17:28:11Z dlowe: but don't let that determine your internal representation
2019-10-29T17:30:11Z p_l: parse it as normal list, iterate on it, and have the code that handles each function know whether it has to consume the next item or not?
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2019-10-29T17:33:35Z dgtlcmo: hi
2019-10-29T17:33:58Z dgtlcmo: I'm reading the bash man page and want to vomit
2019-10-29T17:34:44Z beach: dgtlcmo: I think you have the wrong channel.
2019-10-29T17:35:06Z dgtlcmo: Do LISPers use a different shell?
2019-10-29T17:35:16Z dgtlcmo: maybe just e-lisp in Emacs?
2019-10-29T17:35:35Z beach: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2019-10-29T17:36:04Z dgtlcmo: beach: ok, wrong channel
2019-10-29T17:36:06Z dlowe: Just because someone likes lisp doesn't mean they hate bash, too
2019-10-29T17:37:30Z Josh_2: Yes, no bashing bash :P
2019-10-29T17:39:46Z rumbler3113: so.. is it true that the only correct usage of &rest and &key together is to expect a list of all parameters, but at the point where &rest is processed, the following arguments must be keyword/value pairs?
2019-10-29T17:40:18Z rumbler3113: as in, there will never be things in the &rest list that are not supposed to be keyword/value pairs?
2019-10-29T17:45:57Z Bike: correct.
2019-10-29T17:46:42Z Bike: at least, the number of remaining arguments must be even, and the keys have to be symbols.
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2019-10-29T18:04:44Z Xach: Bike: keys have to be symbols?
2019-10-29T18:05:00Z Xach: That constraint is contrary to my experience, I wonder if it is contrary to the spec!
2019-10-29T18:05:38Z Xach often uses (&rest args &key &allow-other-keys) to define a table-create-and-populate function with string or integer keys
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2019-10-29T18:06:36Z Bike: let me double check
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2019-10-29T18:07:15Z Bike: clhs 3.5.1.5
2019-10-29T18:07:15Z specbot: Invalid Keyword Arguments: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_eae.htm
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2019-10-29T18:08:00Z Xach: saved by 3.4.1.4.1
2019-10-29T18:08:25Z Bike: oh, you're right.
2019-10-29T18:08:27Z Xach: undefined consequences!
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2019-10-29T18:08:31Z Xach: that's not good for me
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2019-10-29T18:08:53Z Xach: well it was fun while it lasted, time to update a million programs!
2019-10-29T18:09:21Z Bike: uh oh
2019-10-29T18:11:22Z Xach: thanks a lot, bike!
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2019-10-29T18:23:51Z buffergn0me: Is there a way to print hexadecimal numbers in lowercase without using FORMAT?
2019-10-29T18:25:29Z sjl_: (let ((*print-base* 16)) (princ (string-downcase (princ-to-string 111))))
2019-10-29T18:25:57Z buffergn0me: but without the intermediate string?
2019-10-29T18:28:22Z sjl_: not that I know of
2019-10-29T18:28:48Z dlowe: you can make your own hex printer that outputs in hex
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2019-10-29T18:30:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: rumbler3113: if you insist on making that work, you'll probably want to define some sort of "schema" for your keyword arguments, so you can tell whether or not the next argument is a new keyword argument or the value of the current keyword argument
2019-10-29T18:31:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, you could specify values as something like '(:keyword . value) and argumetns that don't take values as just :keyword
2019-10-29T18:32:22Z dlowe: or just don't allow keywords as values
2019-10-29T18:37:37Z phoe: buffergn0me: all this talk just made me discover a fancy sbcl bug
2019-10-29T18:37:49Z phoe: (describe (formatter "a"))
2019-10-29T18:38:19Z sjl_: huh
2019-10-29T18:40:00Z buffergn0me: phoe: lambda-name should be a symbol?
2019-10-29T18:40:27Z Bike: the name of the function is a strong, "fmt$a"
2019-10-29T18:40:29Z Bike: which is sorta wacky
2019-10-29T18:40:32Z Bike: a string
2019-10-29T18:40:39Z Xach: buffergn0me: hi! do you use lisp and nix together?
2019-10-29T18:41:22Z buffergn0me: Xach: No. Quicklisp problems on Nix?
2019-10-29T18:41:42Z Xach: buffergn0me: no, lukego was looking to chat about it, and i saw from logs you mentioned it. was trying to matchmake a little.
2019-10-29T18:42:47Z buffergn0me: Xach: Ah, ok. I have a couple of months down time from contracts as of today, I was going to install Guix and use CL with that.
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2019-10-29T19:45:45Z rumbler3113: I'm not trying to add more work, I want to leverage existing stuff.  I just told my users to add the t and massaged the old data
2019-10-29T19:45:58Z rumbler3113: I was just trying to reason through if this was supported somehow
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2019-10-29T19:53:57Z rumbler3113: I was inspired by that guerrilla lisp opus to "just get started", didn't have any particular way I expected to scarf the input file
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2019-10-29T20:03:25Z kpoeck: phoe: I run the modern ansi-test with ccl (and all other lisps that run on MacOSX)
2019-10-29T20:04:34Z kpoeck: 81 out of 21802 total tests failed:
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2019-10-29T20:15:16Z phoe: kpoeck: yes, I have managed to run them as well. Thank you!
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2019-10-29T20:46:05Z mfiano2: Can I somehow use UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-DIFFERENT-CLASS to assign slot values to CURRENT based on a list of initargs in PREVIOUS, when I don't know the slot names for the new class, but do know their initargs?
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2019-10-29T20:46:21Z mfiano2: Without digging into the MOP for this trivial task anyway
2019-10-29T20:48:14Z mfiano2: To be specific, I'm not extracting initargs from PREVIOUS. PREVIOUS will have exactly 1 slot which is a list of initargs I want to use to set the slot values of CURRENT
2019-10-29T20:49:34Z phoe: You don't know the slot names for the new class?...
2019-10-29T20:50:45Z mfiano2: Right. They are dynamically generated with a custom metaclass...but that's a topic for another day...ha
2019-10-29T20:50:47Z Bike: how do you have initargs but not slot names?
2019-10-29T20:50:58Z Bike: by "initargs" i assume you mean the keywords
2019-10-29T20:51:54Z mfiano2: Right. I'm writing a DSL where the user specifies the initargs, but I need to delay shared-initialize so I need to create a fake class with these initargs before i change-class
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2019-10-29T20:53:21Z Bike: sounds like you have a lot of specific concerns. hard to say much without knowing the system. But update-instance-for-different-class should basically call shared-initialize and to do that it'll need slot names, i think.
2019-10-29T20:53:32Z Bike: i'd also say that whatever you're doing sounds like you'lll be using mop at some point anyway
2019-10-29T20:54:28Z jackdaniel: phoe: it seems that you use word "modern" with ansi-test as if there were some significant improvements - that is not true. some tests were added and a directory structure has been introduced
2019-10-29T20:55:08Z mfiano2: Yeah I am for sure. It's quite involved what I am doing, and beyond my ability to even try to explain it at the moment. Just something I've been working on for a month and nearly complete. Looks like I'll have to dig into the MOP some more to pull this off.
2019-10-29T20:55:37Z jackdaniel: real improvement would be running tests not with make but from a host lisp implementation, i.e: (load-system 'ansi-tests) (ansi-tests:run :ecl "/usr/bin/ecl")
2019-10-29T20:56:08Z Bike: it's also really easy to get the slot names with mop
2019-10-29T20:56:09Z jackdaniel: with possibility to inspect results
2019-10-29T20:56:21Z Bike: (mapcar #'slot-definition-name (class-slots (class-of current))), i guess?
2019-10-29T20:57:32Z jackdaniel: here is more involved example with slot moppery: https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/blob/master/Core/clim-basic/utils.lisp#L595
2019-10-29T20:57:53Z phoe: jackdaniel: that's what I meant. ccl-tests has forked ansi-tests a considerable amount of time ago and there is an issue on its test repository that mentions that their fork hasn't been updated for a while.
2019-10-29T20:58:01Z Bike: aux in a lambda
2019-10-29T20:58:10Z mfiano2: Well i don't yet have the class even defined at the point I would need the slots. I only have what will be the keyword initargs
2019-10-29T20:58:20Z jackdaniel: I find &aux more useful than single toplevel let spanning whole body tbh
2019-10-29T20:58:42Z jackdaniel: but that's a matter of taste I suppose
2019-10-29T20:58:49Z Bike: uh, what? you have an object of the new class, you'd better have it defined
2019-10-29T20:59:15Z mfiano2: I need the slots before that.
2019-10-29T20:59:38Z Bike: update-instance-for-different-class is called by change-class. and to call change-class you need the new class
2019-10-29T21:00:10Z Bike: that's all i mean
2019-10-29T21:01:00Z mfiano2: Right. I have the old class which knows about the new initargs. I do some things on the old class, create the new class, then change-class it to be an instance of the new class. At some point in there, I need to map the initargs in a slot of the old class to new class initargs
2019-10-29T21:01:19Z phoe: is `current` already modified to have the new class assigned to it?
2019-10-29T21:01:23Z Bike: yes
2019-10-29T21:01:49Z phoe: then use the MOP to get the slots of (class-of current) - should be enough
2019-10-29T21:02:07Z phoe: ...wait a second though
2019-10-29T21:02:19Z phoe: > i don't yet have the class even defined at the point I would need the slots
2019-10-29T21:02:31Z mfiano2: Well I need to map a list of symbols representing initargs of the new class, to actual slot names of new class
2019-10-29T21:02:37Z phoe: you cannot be inside U-I-F-D-C if you do not have the class defined yet
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2019-10-29T21:03:09Z mfiano2: "...create the new class, then change-class..."
2019-10-29T21:03:15Z Bike: the initargs don't necessarily have any relation to the slot names. if there is some relation, it's one you define yourself
2019-10-29T21:06:26Z mfiano2: Ok I just thought of a way to get the slot names that will be in the current class. I'll just build the previous class with the same structure as the new one then.
2019-10-29T21:06:51Z mfiano2: Minus the metaclass and superclasses that is, which is the whole point of this
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2019-10-29T22:31:20Z hydrocat: Hello everyone. I am trying to write a text tranformation program but I am not sure about all the things common lisp can do yet. Any recommendation on learning resources ?
2019-10-29T22:32:24Z hydrocat: I've found a book called "Practical common lisp" but I'd like your opinion on it :)
2019-10-29T22:33:29Z White_Flame: that's a very commonly recommended book for learning CL
2019-10-29T22:34:40Z hydrocat: But for example, to read text from a file, I am using read-char. I mean, it can be done but maybe there would be a better way.
2019-10-29T22:35:20Z White_Flame: there's also read-line
2019-10-29T22:35:28Z White_Flame: but at some point you'd want to look at libraries
2019-10-29T22:35:31Z DataLinkDroid: hydrocat: PCL is a decent place to start, especially if (as seems to be the case) you already know something of one or more other languages.
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2019-10-29T22:35:48Z White_Flame: quicklisp is the library downloader tool
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2019-10-29T22:38:25Z hydrocat: okay, then I have a more specific question, more personal if you will. In the process of implementing a lexer, I am unsure wether I should make a token generic class and implement it multiple times or simply use symbols.
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2019-10-29T22:38:51Z hydrocat: what would be your suggestion ?
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2019-10-29T22:43:03Z White_Flame: well, having just implemented a lexer, I made each token a list.  (:token "foo") (:punc "(") (:whitespace "   ") etc
2019-10-29T22:43:24Z White_Flame: very easy to construct & deconstruct, and Lisp has good support for ad-hoc data in lists
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2019-10-29T22:45:50Z hydrocat: interesting. why the preference for symbols with : ?
2019-10-29T22:47:22Z White_Flame: each package has its own instance of symbols.  So lexer:foo is not the same symbol as parser:foo, or cl-user:foo.    Keywords are visible and resolve to the same symbol from any package
2019-10-29T22:47:44Z White_Flame: they're intended for data that's broadly visible and self-contained across systems
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2019-10-29T22:49:21Z hydrocat: Should we avoid using 'symbols or do they have a meaning too ?
2019-10-29T22:50:01Z DataLinkDroid: hydrocat: symbols beginning with a colon are "keyword" symbols belonging to the keyword package
2019-10-29T22:50:07Z aeth: 'symbol will become 'current-package::symbol
2019-10-29T22:50:30Z aeth: So if you wanted to compare them you'd have to do something like get the symbol name and reintern them, or get the symbol-name and do a string=
2019-10-29T22:50:38Z White_Flame: hydrocat: it all depends.  I woudln't say to avoid it.  But you'll learn the ins & outs with use
2019-10-29T22:50:40Z aeth: keywords are simple, just eql them
2019-10-29T22:51:09Z White_Flame: source code is made of non keywords.  in (defun foo () ..), "FOO" is interned in the package that was read in
2019-10-29T22:51:30Z aeth: e.g. LOOP takes symbols from any package so (loop for x in bar do (print x)) and (loop :for x :in bar :do (print x)) both work. Most macros will just take keywords, though, because it makes the implementation simpler and the written code more readable
2019-10-29T22:51:30Z White_Flame: so especially in macros where you're building up source code from symbols, those need to be properly packaged symbols in order to reference the right thing
2019-10-29T22:53:29Z hydrocat: Okay ! I believe I got the concept between keywords and general symbols
2019-10-29T22:54:23Z hydrocat: aeth: But then, wouldn't the loop macro fail in some situations since it is taking symbols from any package ?
2019-10-29T22:55:11Z aeth: hydrocat: the loop macro probably is doing something like this: (eql (intern (symbol-name symbol) some-package) 'some-package:foo) instead of (eql symbol 'foo)
2019-10-29T22:55:21Z White_Flame: (symbol-name 'foo:abc) => "ABC", (symbol-name 'bar:abc) => "ABC"
2019-10-29T22:55:22Z aeth: i.e. it's creating a new symbol in the new package and then comparing.
2019-10-29T22:55:26Z White_Flame: the package isignored
2019-10-29T22:55:30Z aeth: Alternatively, it could be doing string=
2019-10-29T22:55:45Z DataLinkDroid: hydrocat: The LOOP macro would not use the value associated with the symbol, but only its name.
2019-10-29T22:56:14Z hydrocat: Right ! makes sense :)
2019-10-29T22:56:20Z aeth: Oh, and since LOOP is built-in and commonly used, there might also be some internal implementation-specific symbol-name-equal
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2019-10-29T22:57:18Z aeth: (Practically, that wouldn't differ too much from doing string= on the symbol-name, though)
2019-10-29T22:57:45Z hydrocat: Just wondering about a different topic, did any of you attend ELS 2018 ?
2019-10-29T22:58:32Z hydrocat: And tahnk you all for the explanations !
2019-10-29T22:59:45Z DataLinkDroid: hydrocat: Not I. It's a long way to Europe from here.
2019-10-29T23:00:54Z hydrocat: DataLinkDroid: Well, so it was for me too
2019-10-29T23:01:19Z DataLinkDroid: :-)
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2019-10-30T02:35:42Z no-defun-allowed: Is there a name for the (somewhat more general) phenomenon described in https://web.archive.org/web/20001030070110/http://www.ai.mit.edu/docs/articles/good-news/subsubsection3.2.2.4.html?
2019-10-30T02:36:36Z no-defun-allowed: That's where you have code like that matrix addition code which you wouldn't ever use, but you would maybe show off with.
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2019-10-30T03:08:15Z LdBeth: *no-defun-allowed*: anti patterns
2019-10-30T03:09:14Z no-defun-allowed: Really? I thought you did use those unintentionally.
2019-10-30T03:09:24Z no-defun-allowed: And you certainly wouldn't brag about them.
2019-10-30T03:10:28Z LdBeth: IF there's a language does matrix addition via this way faster than using array
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2019-10-30T03:10:42Z LdBeth: it is called design patterns in that language
2019-10-30T03:11:06Z LdBeth: but we all know for Common Lisp it isn't true
2019-10-30T03:12:10Z no-defun-allowed: There isn't. I'm talking about good looking code that performs terribly, like reversing a list using APPEND or that Haskell "quick"sort function.
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2019-10-30T03:13:34Z no-defun-allowed: Or another haskal example: the prime filter on haskell.org
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2019-10-30T03:14:53Z LdBeth: the prime filter get fusioned with -O2
2019-10-30T03:15:56Z LdBeth: so it's a design pattern in haskell
2019-10-30T03:16:07Z no-defun-allowed: It isn't an efficient way to find primes though.
2019-10-30T03:16:41Z LdBeth: If the compiler can find out for you just don't bother to spend time yourself
2019-10-30T03:17:00Z no-defun-allowed: Marginally better is the Sieve of Eratosthenes, which is at least 5 times longer: https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Sieve_of_Eratosthenes#Haskell
2019-10-30T03:17:18Z no-defun-allowed: But I think we're talking over each other on what I'm looking for, so never mind.
2019-10-30T03:19:34Z LdBeth: In a lazy lang algorithm complexity is wicky
2019-10-30T03:20:37Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. But I still wouldn't use the former if I needed to find a lot of primes fairly quickly.
2019-10-30T03:20:42Z LdBeth: and indeed you don't get good performance writing do statement in haskell
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2019-10-30T03:23:12Z no-defun-allowed: There's a few other implementations that don't use do, but I still don't think that's relevant to my question.
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2019-10-30T03:30:52Z LdBeth: the funny thing is that Sieve of Eratosthenes is what used naturally in APL
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2019-10-30T04:16:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-10-30T04:34:45Z no-defun-allowed: cl-trie has...interesting documentation. I tried to make an instance of cl-trie:trie and got a warning: "Key for trie not provided, possibly an overlook! See documentation for more information"
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2019-10-30T04:36:01Z no-defun-allowed: So I did, and the example suggests I should add the initargs :verbose nil to muffle the warning.
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2019-10-30T04:36:27Z beach: no-defun-allowed: You will find some very inefficient code in my repositories.  For example, when I write random tests for a data structure, there is usually a "simple" version of it that uses the simplest data structure I could think of, and a "standard" version that is meant for production.  I then generate random tests to compare the results of the two.
2019-10-30T04:37:33Z no-defun-allowed: Right. That's fair then.
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2019-10-30T04:38:23Z beach: But it could have taken as an example by rpg: "This really occurred in some code I've seen"
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2019-10-30T04:39:07Z beach: So, if taken out of context, it might pass as code written by a very incompetent programmer.
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2019-10-30T04:40:37Z no-defun-allowed: I ask because it's not uncommon to see simple code like that when "marketing" languages. If I get around to that, it would be polite to add a footnote: "This is an example of a <name>, which may or may not be representative of what you write in larger programs."
2019-10-30T04:40:58Z no-defun-allowed: And I think I saw it in a Lisp book or essay, but I forgot which one.
2019-10-30T04:41:51Z beach: I see.  I don't recall seeing a name for it.
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2019-10-30T04:42:13Z beach: It is common for Scheme code to have some of that stuff.
2019-10-30T04:42:55Z beach: Representing a matrix as a list of lists makes for some beautiful code for (as I recall) transposing the matrix.
2019-10-30T04:43:16Z no-defun-allowed: Something like (mapcar #'mapcar #'list matrix) from memory.
2019-10-30T04:43:25Z beach: Stuff like that, yes.
2019-10-30T04:43:40Z no-defun-allowed: Or maybe replace the first mapcar with apply.
2019-10-30T04:43:43Z beach: I personally think it is a bad idea to expose students to such code.
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2019-10-30T04:44:55Z beach: "Sir, I just compared the performance of your code to a C version of it.  The C version is 1000 times faster.  Does that mean that the language you are teaching us is useless in industry?"
2019-10-30T04:45:01Z no-defun-allowed: Agreed. It would probably be better to not include inefficient but "cute" code in that kind of material then.
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2019-10-30T04:52:50Z no-defun-allowed: (And that didn't stop Python or any other scripting language, unfortunately.)
2019-10-30T04:53:08Z beach: So that article by Gabriel must date from the early 1990s.
2019-10-30T04:53:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: At this point, consumer hardware is fast enough that inefficient algorithms often don't matter
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2019-10-30T04:53:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Especially for the sorts of problems one finds in "normal" programming jobs
2019-10-30T04:54:54Z beach: I guess so.
2019-10-30T04:58:10Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: In practice, though, you'd use someone's matrix library, and the matrix library would make the correct decisions for the domain.
2019-10-30T04:58:16Z aeth: (In any language)
2019-10-30T04:58:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: matrix math is relatively rare, unless you're in a data science or game development context
2019-10-30T04:59:18Z aeth: Well, I mean, more likely, something other than matrices, like e.g. some standard GUI app or whatever
2019-10-30T04:59:33Z aeth: But whatever it is, ideally, the library you're using implements it efficiently enough
2019-10-30T04:59:57Z aeth: Imo, it's not because of the hardware that most programmers don't have to think about efficiency, it's because the work has already been done. Even to some extent us with SBCL
2019-10-30T05:00:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, but my experience is that it's usually something like Rails or Spring which are tremendously inefficient
2019-10-30T05:00:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: The "industry" has generally traded development convenience for efficiency
2019-10-30T05:00:56Z aeth: On servers, yes, you can do that, and if the efficient solution takes 5x longer to write than Rails, then using Rails makes sense.
2019-10-30T05:01:16Z aeth: I mean, it'll hurt people like me inside a bit to write inefficient code, but there are deadlines to meet
2019-10-30T05:01:50Z aeth: I think the real question is why there isn't a CL Rails, which probably should be able to be 10x faster without sacrificing developer productivity (besides unfamiliarity with the environment, of course)
2019-10-30T05:02:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: We do this client side in Javascript as well
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2019-10-30T05:03:09Z aeth: It is very noticable when you're making your user load something in 3 seconds in JS rather than loading something instantly (* before network latency is taken into account, which should be < 100 ms afaik)
2019-10-30T05:03:14Z aeth: By that standard, even Rails would win on performance!
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2019-10-30T05:04:13Z aeth: Sure, go for developer productivity over efficiency, but only when your servers are paying the cost, not the user with a 5 year old tablet or a 15 year old PC.
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2019-10-30T05:05:36Z aeth: Fortunately (if JavaScript isn't involved) pretty much any end-user task on a PC is fast enough even on 10 year old hardware unless it's demanding like games or some professional tool.
2019-10-30T05:06:31Z aeth: I think the only thing that the user would notice as the difference between a CL GUI and an optimized C GUI is RAM usage, even if the former is 10x slower.
2019-10-30T05:08:29Z aeth: (And a lot of that speed loss is safety, i.e. not segfaulting randomly, which the user certainly notices.)
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2019-10-30T06:12:44Z LdBeth: I guess many interpreted languages have claimed they've suppressed C on performance :*
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2019-10-30T06:18:18Z beach: There is no such thing as an interpreted language.  Interpretation is a property of the implementation.
2019-10-30T06:30:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a language that cannot be compiled?
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2019-10-30T06:31:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd think that certain language features (f-exprs, maybe?) preclude compilation in a meaningful sense
2019-10-30T06:31:13Z jackdaniel: if the specification says: "code is always interpreted compiling it is a spec violation" then yes ;-)
2019-10-30T06:31:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. any compiler would work by embedding an interpreter in the output
2019-10-30T06:31:37Z jackdaniel: some levels of introspection prevent certain optimizations
2019-10-30T06:32:02Z jackdaniel: i.e if you want to check for /all/ local bindings you can't optimize them out
2019-10-30T06:32:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, if the meaning of a symbol always depends on the dynamic context and that context can always be changed arbitrarily by a function's caller, you couldn't optimize at all
2019-10-30T06:32:40Z beach: Sure, some languages make it very hard to write a compiler.  But history shows that what is possible can change over time as new techniques are invented.
2019-10-30T06:33:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: (my guess is that such a language would be extremely painful to write as well, but...)
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2019-10-30T06:34:22Z no-defun-allowed: I would guess self-modifying Brainfuck is a hard language to compile, at least if you ignore JIT/dynamic recompilation techniques.
2019-10-30T06:35:14Z jackdaniel: arguably any language is hard to compile, because efficient compilation is not easy ;-)
2019-10-30T06:35:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2019-10-30T06:35:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: would I use Trucler if I wanted a macro to have access to declarations?
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2019-10-30T06:39:17Z beach: Good question.  I would think so yes.
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2019-10-30T06:44:48Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Currently, heisig is the one maintaining Trucler, and he is also writing backends for various existing Common Lisp implementations.  The best thing would be to check with him what is possible.
2019-10-30T06:45:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: ok
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2019-10-30T07:39:13Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: you can always compile the f-expr, and JIT-compile the result.
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2019-10-30T10:38:53Z francogrex: I have noticed that lately especially with java8, lisp(sbcl) is behind in terms of speed, also visible in the games for example: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/performance/pidigits.html
2019-10-30T10:39:10Z francogrex: is this because of software or just bad programming?
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2019-10-30T10:41:25Z Shinmera: Plots like these only tell you how much time each party spent optimising their benchmark.
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2019-10-30T10:44:38Z scymtym: pidigits is mostly bullshit (there are exceptions like the Chapel solution) since most solutions just use gmp via ffi
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2019-10-30T10:46:57Z no-defun-allowed: Seems a non-negligible set just interface with GMP (including the SBCL code!) so they should be roughly the same.
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2019-10-30T10:47:34Z aap: i have LISP from 1966 running on my FPGA PDP-6!
2019-10-30T10:47:56Z lukego: aap: cool!
2019-10-30T10:48:16Z jeosol: aap: no modifications?
2019-10-30T10:48:21Z aap: correct
2019-10-30T10:48:34Z aap: found the binary a few months ago on a dectape image
2019-10-30T10:49:07Z aap: and i've been working on pdp-6 simulation recently. as of yesterday it passses diagnostics and it turns out LISP is also working
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2019-10-30T10:50:01Z aap: i want to restore the assembly code from the binary eventually
2019-10-30T10:50:27Z aap: the PDP-6 was kinda the original lisp machine so it's of quite some historic value
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2019-10-30T10:50:53Z jeosol: aap: very nice
2019-10-30T10:51:32Z aap: they were writing this LISP while the machine was still being built
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2019-10-30T10:52:43Z aap: it's the earliest incarnation we have of what would be called maclisp a few years later
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2019-10-30T10:53:28Z no-defun-allowed: francogrex: FWIW, I ran that code and it took 5.7 seconds without GMP. I figure my laptop is slower than the test machine, so Lisp is no more than 4 times "slower" than C.
2019-10-30T10:59:05Z no-defun-allowed: And that code does not look very nice, using GO and an unnecessary PARSE-INTEGER in a loop. I also think there are other things you could do to shave off a few microseconds, like using lexical variables instead of dynamic variables for the state the generator uses.
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2019-10-30T11:01:58Z scymtym: no-defun-allowed: optimizing pidigits-sbcl-3 a bit made it go from around 9 to around 3 seconds on my machine
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2019-10-30T11:02:27Z no-defun-allowed: Nice. I didn't really change much, what did you do?
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2019-10-30T11:03:53Z scymtym: no-defun-allowed: turned the global functions into local ones and got rid of the special variable accesses
2019-10-30T11:04:27Z no-defun-allowed: Huh, that's quite a change then.
2019-10-30T11:04:46Z no-defun-allowed: Also I think there is some emulation of ratios happening with the variables named num and den.
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2019-10-30T11:10:58Z francogrex: no-defun-allowed: i agree with you about all other programming languages using GMP too
2019-10-30T11:11:22Z francogrex: and guys who denigrated the programming task or the benchmark: enough, grow up please
2019-10-30T11:11:46Z francogrex: I suspect it may be parly bad code written in sbcl
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2019-10-30T11:13:04Z francogrex: I would like to see that if a head to head comparison, i.e. like as much similar code/constructs
2019-10-30T11:13:32Z no-defun-allowed: Well, I was going to say "play stupid games, win stupid prizes", but I have to go grow up now ):
2019-10-30T11:14:13Z no-defun-allowed sits in the growing-up corner
2019-10-30T11:20:47Z francogrex: no-defun-allowed: let's not go into the usual debacle i have seen many times especially in stackoverflow: a question like, "can we do that in [insert favourite language here]?" and the flood of reponses/answers that are unable to directly answer the question start: "and why do you want to do this like that?" "what you are trying to do is stupid", or "would you not rather do that instead?" .... all replies that avoid the answer because
2019-10-30T11:20:47Z francogrex: incapable...but let's not :)
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2019-10-30T11:25:21Z thijso: There are often reasons for those kinds of responses... not saying they're always _good_ reasons, but...
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2019-10-30T11:31:06Z flip214: we need an AI that _gives_ us reasons, one way or another
2019-10-30T11:31:09Z no-defun-allowed: Another FWIW: I wrote an implementation of the Bailey-Borwein-Plouffe formula and asked Petalisp to compute pi to what I think is 10,000 decimal digits. That ran in 1.83 seconds.
2019-10-30T11:32:03Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: you can calculate each _hex_ digit of pi directly with a fairly simple formula... decimal is the problem ;)
2019-10-30T11:32:45Z no-defun-allowed: Well, then you want (ceiling (integer-length (expt 10 10000)) 4) hex digits or so to get 10,000 decimal digits.
2019-10-30T11:33:11Z no-defun-allowed: Though I haven't written a printer for the number yet.
2019-10-30T11:33:52Z flip214: the idea is, when being asked for the 1e9 digit of pi, to just return the _hex_ digit in a millisec or so
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2019-10-30T11:36:46Z no-defun-allowed: My printer is too slow.
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2019-10-30T11:38:00Z no-defun-allowed: This is what I have so far though: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1534#1534
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2019-10-30T11:40:09Z no-defun-allowed: But I still have to go grow up. ):
2019-10-30T11:40:28Z thijso: growing up is overrated
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2019-10-30T11:46:47Z francogrex: no-defun-allowed: it's good but the benchmark is about comparisons in implementing the same algorithm.
2019-10-30T11:47:51Z francogrex: I agree that the ratings reflect not only programming languages but the ability of the programmer to find alternative language constructs optimize his code to get the best implementation of the algorithm.. so we are also evaluating
2019-10-30T11:47:55Z beach: I think it is best to stay out of comparisons and arguments as long as we do not have the manpower to keep up with more mainstream languages.
2019-10-30T11:48:12Z francogrex: the individual programmer not only his/her language
2019-10-30T11:48:57Z francogrex: beach: we engage in those discussion only for fun nothing else
2019-10-30T11:50:41Z beach: I meant the discussions on stackoverflow etc.  It seems some people take them real seriously.
2019-10-30T11:50:57Z francogrex: ok yes true
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2019-10-30T12:04:52Z p_l: francogrex: might be a weird question, but I seem to recall from years ago that you might have done some fun stuff with Excel and ECL?
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2019-10-30T12:23:11Z lukego: aap: just curious what fpga are you running that on?
2019-10-30T12:23:34Z aap: de0-nano-soc
2019-10-30T12:24:37Z aap: i have the raw verilog here: https://github.com/aap/pdp6/tree/master/verilog but not the quartus project (yet)
2019-10-30T12:24:47Z aap: (not all files are used in my current config)
2019-10-30T12:27:10Z lukego: I'm vaguely cooking up a Lisp HDL at the moment, built upon my complete lack of experience with hardware development or other HDLs :)
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2019-10-30T12:28:01Z aap: a lisp based HDL would be pretty cute
2019-10-30T12:28:14Z aap: it's probably trivial to just invent an sexp syntax for verilog
2019-10-30T12:28:28Z aap: and then maybe start doing more interesting things from there
2019-10-30T12:29:02Z aap: do note that my verilog is for the most part sorta transcribed from the original schematics so it's not really idiomatic
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2019-10-30T12:30:02Z lukego: I'm imagining a bottom layer that's an S-expression syntax on either Verilog or FIRRTL or Yosys RTLIL, but also an upper-layer that's a domain specific language for router/switch/firewall type of networking applications.
2019-10-30T12:32:09Z lukego: Dreaming up a DSL that could be efficiently run either on CPU or FPGA... hard to emphasise how little I understand of the problem at this stage though :)
2019-10-30T12:33:58Z aap: there are so many custom HDL projects...
2019-10-30T12:35:29Z lukego: Yeah. I had already talked myself out of doing this and decided to use Chisel, but that didn't seem to stick, maybe that will be Plan B if I make a mess in Lisp.
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2019-10-30T12:35:59Z lukego: I probably need to try writing my own HDL before I can really appreciate and evaluate other ones anyway.
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2019-10-30T12:36:44Z lukego: I had also planned to use a DSL called P4 off-the-shelf but it seems to be much too restricted for my needs.
2019-10-30T12:38:47Z p_l: there was a company that sold services based around Lisp-to-VHDL system (or maybe verilog)
2019-10-30T12:39:02Z p_l: for HFT customers
2019-10-30T12:39:57Z p_l: lukego: and how is P4 too limited?
2019-10-30T12:40:27Z lukego: p_l yeah that was Marc Battyani's company right? I remember his awesome talks. I am trying to "do a Marc" I suppose :)
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2019-10-30T12:42:43Z lukego: I'm not an expert at P4 but the examples I've read have all been basically broken due to limitations of the language not permitting a correct implementation and it puts me off. The basic limitation seems to be that you can't write to tables, only read from them, and so you can't really write state machines in P4. Maybe can be fixed with a language extension to just allow writes but for now I'm a skeptic.
2019-10-30T12:44:30Z lukego: I'm suspicious of these "SDN" people by default, for better or for worse..
2019-10-30T12:46:18Z lukego: aap: what toolchain do you use for your verilog hacking? on what os?
2019-10-30T12:47:22Z aap: i simulate with icarus verilog and once i'm confident it's right i'm putting it into my project with quartus (on windows)
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2019-10-30T13:01:43Z francogrex: p_l: yes :) years ago
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2019-10-30T13:02:04Z lukego: I'm reluctant to use Windows but maybe I'll be lucky and never get confident enough to reach the synthesis step ;-)
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2019-10-30T13:02:27Z lukego: I have a TinyFPGA BX for use with Yosys and I'm planning to upgrade to an EX or similar board at some point.
2019-10-30T13:02:35Z aap: quartus works on linux too, but i just haven't bothered
2019-10-30T13:03:06Z lukego: I suppose that initially my coding will be all Lisp running in a high-level simulator
2019-10-30T13:03:19Z aap: sounds good
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2019-10-30T13:22:36Z jmercouris: if I compile a C library with one compiler, can I use that shared library with another compiler? If so, how does that work?
2019-10-30T13:23:04Z jmercouris: My question ultimately goes to this: how does CFFI work, on a fundamental level, wouldn't it have to hook into compiler specific details to make function calls to C functions, or am I missing something?
2019-10-30T13:24:28Z Xach: jmercouris: the way C calls work is set by the operating system, not the compiler.
2019-10-30T13:24:47Z Xach: in the sense that the C runtime is part of the operating system
2019-10-30T13:25:15Z Xach: jmercouris: the system establishes an ABI that programs can use to make calls and interoperate
2019-10-30T13:25:33Z jmercouris: Oh, no way
2019-10-30T13:25:35Z jmercouris: that's crazy!
2019-10-30T13:25:42Z jmercouris: What? Who thought that was a good idea?
2019-10-30T13:26:03Z Bike: um, most of the programming world, like fifty years ago on
2019-10-30T13:26:10Z Xach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_binary_interface has some details
2019-10-30T13:26:12Z jmercouris: Do people still believe it's a good idea?
2019-10-30T13:26:15Z mindthelion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2019-10-30T13:26:20Z jmercouris: I'm not an expert or anything, but it doesn't sound like a good idea
2019-10-30T13:26:21Z Bike: well, do you like that CFFI exists?
2019-10-30T13:26:25Z Bike: if so, you probably want an ABI
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2019-10-30T13:26:39Z Xach: How can you say you're not an expert? You just learned about it a few seconds ago.
2019-10-30T13:26:47Z jmercouris: I guess so, but perhaps if ABI didn't exist, the performance of Unix Domain sockets would be better
2019-10-30T13:26:54Z Bike: how so
2019-10-30T13:27:20Z jmercouris: there would be more incentive
2019-10-30T13:27:26Z Bike: huh?
2019-10-30T13:27:40Z Bike: without an ABI, to call operating system functions, you'd need to know what compiler the operating system was compiled with, and probably use it
2019-10-30T13:27:41Z jmercouris: people would use Unix domain sockets instead of ABI for IPC
2019-10-30T13:27:41Z Cymew: This will be entertaining...
2019-10-30T13:27:42Z d4ryus: id even argue that this ABI is the sole reason why C is still used that much, as it is the only language with a solid ABI.
2019-10-30T13:27:50Z Cymew: This will be entertaining...
2019-10-30T13:28:02Z Bike: hey don't do that lol popcorn shit, tia
2019-10-30T13:28:25Z Xach: jmercouris: calling C functions is not really IPC, unless the I is "intra"
2019-10-30T13:28:37Z jmercouris: Well, CFFI is IPC, isn't it?
2019-10-30T13:28:41Z jmercouris: or do they live in the same process?
2019-10-30T13:28:42Z Bike: no?
2019-10-30T13:28:42Z Xach: jmercouris: no.
2019-10-30T13:28:47Z Bike: what would the other process be?
2019-10-30T13:28:48Z jmercouris: Ah, okay that clarifies a lot of things
2019-10-30T13:29:00Z jmercouris: You know, it was an assumption I made but never questioned I guess
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2019-10-30T13:29:25Z Xach: jmercouris: are you familiar with OS system calls and how they're invoked?
2019-10-30T13:29:36Z jmercouris: Yes, I am a little bit familiar, but have done very little, a long time ago
2019-10-30T13:29:44Z dlowe: what you're talking about is usually called a lamprey
2019-10-30T13:29:59Z Bike: uh?
2019-10-30T13:30:02Z jmercouris: Here's my question then, if the ABI, is so awesome, why aren't there other stable ABIs?
2019-10-30T13:30:31Z Bike: well, for one, having more standards doesn't help the standards
2019-10-30T13:30:39Z Bike: for two, the C ABIs are "good enough"
2019-10-30T13:30:47Z Bike: i'm not sure what you have in mind here, though
2019-10-30T13:30:55Z Bike: you wouldn't want multiple ABI standards on the same OS
2019-10-30T13:30:59Z dlowe: If you have an ABI, it puts constraints on what your implementation is allowed to do
2019-10-30T13:31:24Z jmercouris: like for example
2019-10-30T13:31:25Z dlowe: so there's no C++ ABI so compilers can implement its features any way they want
2019-10-30T13:31:35Z jmercouris: is there a lisp implementation that can have functions called by C?
2019-10-30T13:31:42Z jmercouris: Perhaps ECL?
2019-10-30T13:31:45Z jackdaniel: T
2019-10-30T13:32:02Z jackdaniel: it is possible to call ECL functions from C
2019-10-30T13:32:03Z jmercouris: can I in SBCL write a program that exposes functions via this ABI to a C program on a Unix system?
2019-10-30T13:32:03Z dlowe: I think sbcl supports C callbacks too
2019-10-30T13:32:07Z Bike: i think with ECL that works because the lisp is compiled into a c program, not because of matching the ABI
2019-10-30T13:32:28Z Bike: (i mean, compiling into a C program means it gets to match the ABI, you know what i mean)
2019-10-30T13:32:33Z jackdaniel: Bike: well, ABI is matching *because* we compile to c program
2019-10-30T13:32:42Z Bike: see? you know what i mean
2019-10-30T13:32:44Z dlowe: so you can't suck sbcl into a C program, but you could pass a lisp function to a C function as an argument
2019-10-30T13:33:04Z jackdaniel: there is additional perk of that: if we compile ECL with CXX then we match C++ ABI of the default compiler ,)
2019-10-30T13:33:08Z _death: I think this was one primary feature of Lucid CL
2019-10-30T13:33:32Z dlowe: There's also clasp, which interfaces intimately with C++ via LLVM
2019-10-30T13:33:45Z Bike: sbcl has its own internal calling conventions that aren't stable or exported, but also to call a lisp function you need to have the lisp runtime, which is generally larger than libc, and i think only ecl makes it available as a shared object anyway
2019-10-30T13:33:56Z dlowe: is it larger, though
2019-10-30T13:34:12Z _death: another stable ABI is the one defined by Microsoft COM, I guess
2019-10-30T13:34:14Z Bike: i'd be pretty impressed if it wasn't
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2019-10-30T13:34:41Z jmercouris: OK, so an ABI is a protocol for binaries to communicate
2019-10-30T13:34:43Z jmercouris: I get that
2019-10-30T13:34:45Z jackdaniel: Bike: but this is not a coincidence that functions are compiled to C functions (it would be in fact easier to have some things as state machines -- i.e flet functions); it was designed this way in KCL to have a common runtime for numerous languages in the same ABI as C (prolog was one of them)
2019-10-30T13:34:47Z Xach: jmercouris: no.
2019-10-30T13:34:52Z jmercouris: No? did I misunderstand?
2019-10-30T13:35:02Z dlowe: Bike: okay, libc isn't as big as I thought
2019-10-30T13:35:15Z jmercouris: Ok, let me reread and see
2019-10-30T13:35:57Z jmercouris: Ok I've reread
2019-10-30T13:35:58Z dlowe: maybe just read the wikipedia page? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_binary_interface
2019-10-30T13:35:58Z Xach: jmercouris: "binaries" implies multiple independent processes to me. but the ABI is about how, within a single process, to set up the registers and such to invoke functionality that is part of a single binary, provided by the OS (as a syscall), or linked in via a shared library
2019-10-30T13:36:00Z jackdaniel: and there are some conventions for functions with optional/key arguments  etc
2019-10-30T13:36:02Z jmercouris: and I don't see how an ABI is not a protocol
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2019-10-30T13:36:11Z Bike: it is a protocol, but it's not exactly communication
2019-10-30T13:36:21Z Xach: jmercouris: it is a protocol, but it's a protocol in the sense of an orderly and formal series of steps
2019-10-30T13:36:29Z Bike: it's just letting functions compiled with one thing call functions compiled with another thing, in the same process
2019-10-30T13:36:32Z Xach: and preconditions
2019-10-30T13:36:39Z jmercouris: Right, it is a set of rules about how something should behave
2019-10-30T13:36:49Z jmercouris: Maybe I spent too long in Java world, but that's what protocol means to me when I think about it
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2019-10-30T13:37:02Z jmercouris: ok, so there exists an ABI for C programs
2019-10-30T13:37:07Z Bike: an ABI is also why you can link a library to your C program without worrying so much about what compiled the library
2019-10-30T13:37:10Z jmercouris: why doesn't everyone implement this ABI for all sorts of FFI from any lang to any lang?
2019-10-30T13:37:30Z Xach: jmercouris: it *is* often used as a lowest common denominator.
2019-10-30T13:37:34Z jmercouris: Bike: that's why my first question was about the shared library with one compiler, and the other program with another compiler
2019-10-30T13:37:40Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: C ABI has some limitations. one obvious one is that it is the caller who "owns" the callee arguments
2019-10-30T13:37:52Z Bike: i mean, many do, but a lot of languages pretty much live in their own worlds
2019-10-30T13:38:01Z dlowe: most languages don't have a *stable* ABI
2019-10-30T13:38:15Z jmercouris: Ok, so here's my next question then
2019-10-30T13:38:20Z Bike: lisp, for one, is built as a kind of operating system in itself
2019-10-30T13:38:24Z Bike: because of lisp machines and stuff
2019-10-30T13:38:25Z jmercouris: so we can go Lisp -> C, and we can go C -> C++
2019-10-30T13:38:28Z dlowe: so you're talking about having n^2 language interfaces
2019-10-30T13:38:34Z dlowe: no, we can't
2019-10-30T13:38:36Z Bike: c to c++ is kind of weird actually
2019-10-30T13:38:37Z jmercouris: Can we just go Lisp -> C -> C++?
2019-10-30T13:38:38Z mindthelion quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2019-10-30T13:38:53Z jackdaniel: how do you achieve C -> C++?
2019-10-30T13:39:04Z jmercouris: I believe C code can be compiled by a C++ compiler
2019-10-30T13:39:14Z dlowe: it cannot
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2019-10-30T13:39:17Z Bike: not in general
2019-10-30T13:39:26Z Bike: they have different semantics for a few things
2019-10-30T13:39:26Z shka__: not always
2019-10-30T13:39:29Z jmercouris: So you are telling me that a C program cannot call C++?
2019-10-30T13:39:37Z jackdaniel: and even if - that would be C++ (even if source is C-compatible)
2019-10-30T13:39:37Z Bike: well usually you do extern "C" in the C++ program
2019-10-30T13:39:38Z dlowe: not really, no
2019-10-30T13:39:39Z jmercouris: Why doesn't someone implement this ABI in C++?
2019-10-30T13:39:39Z shka__: jmercouris: extern
2019-10-30T13:39:47Z dlowe: C++ has support for the C ABI :)
2019-10-30T13:39:49Z Bike: this tells the C++ compiler to use C linkage (i.e. the C ABI)
2019-10-30T13:39:58Z Bike: C++ in general has features that aren't covered by the C ABI
2019-10-30T13:40:00Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: overloaded operators kind of make that impossible
2019-10-30T13:40:00Z jmercouris: So we can call C from C++ but not the other way around?
2019-10-30T13:40:02Z dlowe: The C++ FFI
2019-10-30T13:40:06Z jackdaniel: and there are other things
2019-10-30T13:40:06Z shka__: jmercouris: because mangling
2019-10-30T13:40:08Z Bike: like you can have more than one function with the same name but different parameter types
2019-10-30T13:40:13Z Bike: and templating
2019-10-30T13:40:17Z jmercouris: Ah, Java world again
2019-10-30T13:40:20Z dlowe: and virtual tables
2019-10-30T13:40:30Z jmercouris: and in C you cannot, I see
2019-10-30T13:40:42Z jmercouris: and there is no namespacing or anything in C that would allow this, right?
2019-10-30T13:40:42Z jackdaniel: but you can do Lisp -> C++ with ECL (as I've hinted above)
2019-10-30T13:40:55Z Bike: C does not have namespaces, no
2019-10-30T13:41:01Z Bike: i don't think it would be enough, anyway
2019-10-30T13:41:03Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: have you gotten it to work before?
2019-10-30T13:41:03Z jackdaniel: and of course you can do Clasp -> C++ (that's its main selling feature)
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2019-10-30T13:41:09Z Bike: do you know how name mangling works? it is Complicated
2019-10-30T13:41:11Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: of course
2019-10-30T13:41:13Z jmercouris: Does anyone have experience with Clasp?
2019-10-30T13:41:24Z Bike: i'm a clasp dev, buuuuut i don't actually do the C++ interop stuff
2019-10-30T13:41:26Z jmercouris: is it usuable as a lisp implementation, today?
2019-10-30T13:41:31Z jackdaniel: Bike has, you may think of him as an expert of C++ Lisp interop ,)
2019-10-30T13:41:34Z Bike: and the way it works is using the same compiler, pretty much
2019-10-30T13:41:38Z shka__: Bike: every compiler has it's own mangling rules so it is not even possible to know how it works
2019-10-30T13:41:42Z jackdaniel: oh, sorry, scratch that
2019-10-30T13:41:43Z jackdaniel: then
2019-10-30T13:41:48Z _death: there is an old book about C++ object model (Lippman) but in general the language is so complex that there is a lot of room for disagreements, and though there are multiple ABI standards, none is king
2019-10-30T13:41:48Z Bike: shka__: well yes, i mean the generalities
2019-10-30T13:42:28Z Bike: clasp can run slime and stuff and implements the standard and MOP, it's pretty usable
2019-10-30T13:42:29Z _death: it does not help that the C++ crowd decided to come up with a new standard every couple of years
2019-10-30T13:42:39Z Bike: it's lacking a few things compared to other implementations, tho
2019-10-30T13:42:40Z shka__: indeed, this may be THE main reason why C++ will never fully replace C
2019-10-30T13:42:51Z jmercouris: Bike: is it an incomplete implmentation? or are you referring to extensions?
2019-10-30T13:42:53Z dlowe: C is the one ABI everyone landed on
2019-10-30T13:42:58Z jackdaniel: C has a new standard every now and then as well
2019-10-30T13:42:58Z Bike: you can drop by #clasp and ask drmeister stuff if he's not busy with another grant proposal
2019-10-30T13:43:07Z dlowe: it's not optimal, but it's what we got
2019-10-30T13:43:19Z Bike: clasp completely implements the standard, and mop, and gray streams and stuff
2019-10-30T13:43:28Z Bike: it's still got some bugs and slowness, is all
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2019-10-30T13:44:18Z _death: jackdaniel: no one really cares about those.. people either care about the old standards or their implementation-specific extensions
2019-10-30T13:44:19Z jackdaniel: correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that languages which target llvm (given it is the same llvm version) may interop with each other
2019-10-30T13:44:36Z jmercouris: the world of FFI is so fascinating
2019-10-30T13:44:39Z jmercouris: so here's another question
2019-10-30T13:44:48Z jmercouris: if they live in the same process, and the C code gets a segfault
2019-10-30T13:44:52Z jmercouris: how can I be sure my Lisp image doesn't die?
2019-10-30T13:44:53Z jackdaniel: _death: that's very big claim
2019-10-30T13:45:12Z Bike: jmercouris: pretty good chance your lisp impl has a segfault handler for gc reasons
2019-10-30T13:45:15Z dlowe: jmercouris: that's one of many reasons we don't use more C libraries
2019-10-30T13:45:19Z _death: jackdaniel: take it with a grain of salt then.. it's just my experience
2019-10-30T13:45:30Z phoe: jmercouris: segfault handlers exist, so you can try and recover from that situation
2019-10-30T13:45:30Z dlowe: or at least prefer lisp libraries
2019-10-30T13:45:31Z jmercouris: is there a way to avoid the segfault or somehow make that part of the memory not interfere?
2019-10-30T13:45:45Z phoe: same as if you were running a segfaulting foreign library via CFFI
2019-10-30T13:45:48Z dlowe: run it in another process and use IPC :D
2019-10-30T13:45:50Z jmercouris: ok, so segfault handlers exist, is it part of CFFI or part of Extensions?
2019-10-30T13:46:05Z dlowe: but, I mean, the C code could clear the signal handler too
2019-10-30T13:46:06Z jmercouris: dlowe: that's what I'm doing at the moment in Next, but one of our developers wishes to move to using CFFI
2019-10-30T13:46:08Z phoe: it is a part of the implementation
2019-10-30T13:46:10Z jackdaniel: segfault is exactly the way to make parts of the memory not interfere ,)
2019-10-30T13:46:34Z jmercouris: Ah, yes, the very technically correct answer
2019-10-30T13:46:42Z jmercouris: :-D
2019-10-30T13:47:02Z dlowe: A process is primarily a separated region of memory
2019-10-30T13:47:03Z jmercouris: so, do most implementations have segfault handlers?
2019-10-30T13:47:07Z jackdaniel: no, I mean it, segfaults are part of memory protection
2019-10-30T13:47:11Z jackdaniel: that's the very purpose of it
2019-10-30T13:47:16Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I also took cs200 :-)
2019-10-30T13:47:30Z Xach: which course had abis
2019-10-30T13:47:31Z jackdaniel: if you want to invent memory protection on top of memory protection then I will leave that without comment
2019-10-30T13:48:10Z jmercouris: It's about not corrupting the lisp image
2019-10-30T13:48:20Z jmercouris: not about making sure it doesn't access data outside of the process...
2019-10-30T13:48:24Z jmercouris: two very distinct types of protection!
2019-10-30T13:49:26Z phoe: so you basically want your C code to be unable to touch your Lisp pages
2019-10-30T13:49:28Z dlowe: the easiest thing to do is to use lisp libraries instead of C libraries
2019-10-30T13:49:37Z jmercouris: phoe: correct
2019-10-30T13:49:41Z jmercouris: I guess beach was right
2019-10-30T13:49:45Z phoe: I wonder if this is achievable within a single process
2019-10-30T13:49:46Z jmercouris: the only way to do this is with a separate process
2019-10-30T13:49:48Z dlowe: that's not really the way C works
2019-10-30T13:49:55Z jmercouris: and to do some IPC, as we are doing
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2019-10-30T13:50:39Z phoe: one way I think of is to mprotect() all of your Lisp pages each time you dive into C and unprotect them on your way back to Lisp
2019-10-30T13:50:46Z dlowe: I think you *could* do it by marking all your lisp pages as ... yeah
2019-10-30T13:50:57Z francogrex quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2019-10-30T13:51:04Z dlowe: that has some pretty serious performance implications
2019-10-30T13:51:38Z phoe: exactly this though, you basically wrap each C call in a pair of syscalls
2019-10-30T13:51:44Z jackdaniel: and if you access memory protected page, you have a.. surprise -- segfault
2019-10-30T13:51:55Z phoe: jackdaniel: but that is acceptable
2019-10-30T13:52:08Z phoe: he wants to protect his Lisp memory, not to avoid segfaults
2019-10-30T13:52:23Z jackdaniel: phoe: sure, but he refuted previous answer because, well, he took cs200?
2019-10-30T13:52:29Z jackdaniel: I don't know what that is btw
2019-10-30T13:52:37Z _death: one reason processes exist is to have these boundaries..
2019-10-30T13:53:28Z phoe: yep - you'd actually need to measure what is faster, doing actual IPC or spamming mprotect() inside a single process
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2019-10-30T13:53:55Z phoe: the trick is, you have no idea if your Lisp implementation actually uses mprotect itself
2019-10-30T13:54:08Z phoe: so you might interfere with it if you call mprotect on your own
2019-10-30T13:54:10Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: cs200 is a beginner CS class, one of the first things we learn about with C is all the types of ways a program crashes and what they mean
2019-10-30T13:54:21Z _death: if you want more performance than unix domain sockets, maybe shared memory can help
2019-10-30T13:54:22Z jmercouris: My point is, I don't need the definition of a segfault, I know it :-D
2019-10-30T13:54:47Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: it is hard to assume what you know and what you don't know (based on some of your questions)
2019-10-30T13:54:52Z phoe: _death: I don't think shared memory is going to work in that use case - you basically want Lisp to drive a lot of foreign code
2019-10-30T13:55:03Z phoe: since I assume that this is how nextbrowser works
2019-10-30T13:55:07Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: well, CS is a very wide breadth, and my knowledge is in a very specialized domain...
2019-10-30T13:55:16Z jackdaniel: oh?
2019-10-30T13:55:27Z _death: phoe: a combination of shared memory and a message queue is not unheard of
2019-10-30T13:56:02Z jmercouris: phoe: yes, basically, a lot of IPC, we have a very strict, limited protocol defined in remote.lisp
2019-10-30T13:56:10Z jmercouris: _death: we do use lparallel
2019-10-30T13:56:27Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: yes, my specialty is in data ingestion, sanitation, and semantic analysis of documents
2019-10-30T13:56:32Z jackdaniel: either way, using mprotect or other ways to protect memory will save you from some crashes and will make it easier to hide bugs in your usage of the library
2019-10-30T13:57:11Z jmercouris: mprotect, OK
2019-10-30T13:57:14Z jmercouris: I will investigate
2019-10-30T13:57:23Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: then I can't assume you know what segfault is? I'm confused, but I won't investigate ,)
2019-10-30T13:58:30Z jmercouris: let's not worry about it!
2019-10-30T13:58:36Z jmercouris: have any of you seen this project: https://github.com/mrosset/giqt?
2019-10-30T13:59:04Z jmercouris: it's something Akin to smoke using gobject introspection to make bindings for languages
2019-10-30T13:59:18Z phoe: _death: hmmmmm
2019-10-30T13:59:33Z phoe: jmercouris: you could actually try that approach
2019-10-30T13:59:53Z phoe: grab a chunk of memory shared between both processes and stuff a message queue there
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2019-10-30T14:00:43Z jmercouris: phoe: so what would be the difference between that and Unix domain sockets?
2019-10-30T14:01:08Z jmercouris: in terms of performance, I thought  unix domain sockets typically used shared memory for IPC?
2019-10-30T14:01:53Z phoe: stackoverflow tells me https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2101671/unix-domain-sockets-vs-shared-memory-mapped-file
2019-10-30T14:02:05Z phoe: so the two are different, and shared memory seems faster
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2019-10-30T14:02:26Z _death: phoe: I did not necessarily meant it this way.. it's also possible to have a shared memory area for storing large blobs and a message queue, perhaps using a different transport
2019-10-30T14:02:46Z phoe: _death: that's yet another method, I see
2019-10-30T14:02:59Z jmercouris: _death: what are blobs?
2019-10-30T14:03:43Z _death: binary large objects
2019-10-30T14:04:01Z jmercouris: TIL, my whole life I thought it was the english word
2019-10-30T14:04:04Z jmercouris: like a "blob" of bits
2019-10-30T14:04:18Z _death: the pun makes sense
2019-10-30T14:04:51Z jmercouris: it's a pun?
2019-10-30T14:05:48Z _death: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_large_object
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2019-10-30T14:06:19Z jmercouris: Fascinating history!
2019-10-30T14:06:36Z jmercouris: so much to think about... I really do think I'll just stick with IPC
2019-10-30T14:06:44Z jmercouris: I don't think there is much performance gain to be had from shared memory
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2019-10-30T14:07:46Z dlowe: there's quite a lot. IPC means having to serialize and de-serialize your data structures
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2019-10-30T14:12:28Z jmercouris: Indeed, that is extra work, on both sides, we use D-Bus which supports some primitives
2019-10-30T14:12:42Z jmercouris: and fortunately most of the information is contained within Lisp data structures that the foreign code not be knowledgable of
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2019-10-30T14:13:18Z jmercouris: s/not/need not
2019-10-30T14:13:35Z phoe: jmercouris: Second Question of Optimization: do you know where exactly in your system the bottleneck exists?
2019-10-30T14:13:50Z phoe: if it's not the IPC between Lisp and C, then you won't gain much from optimizing this place
2019-10-30T14:13:51Z jmercouris: phoe: no, not exactly, I suspect a lot of it is with the Metal API/OpenGL APIs
2019-10-30T14:14:01Z phoe: then profile more
2019-10-30T14:14:11Z phoe: figure out which part is the slowest, then work on that
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2019-10-30T14:14:30Z phoe: otherwise you won't gain as much as you can from spending your time on speeding up the wrong thing
2019-10-30T14:14:55Z jmercouris: Yeah, the biggest argument in favor of moving to FFI is that we won't have to maintain a separate C and C++ codebase for the Webkit and Webengine ports
2019-10-30T14:15:41Z jmercouris: and that we'll be able to access more of GTK and QT without having to expand the protocol
2019-10-30T14:15:57Z jmercouris: for example, we want to add split window functionality, it means updating the C program, and the C++ program, and the Lisp program and then coordinating a release
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2019-10-30T14:26:11Z jackdaniel: you may keep these things in a single repository if that's the problem
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2019-10-30T14:45:23Z selwyn: jmercouris: are you planning a windows deployment?
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2019-10-30T17:12:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: jmercouris: minion doesn't seem to have remembered, but it's possible to have dyld on a mac automatically find a library relative to your application's bundle
2019-10-30T17:12:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://wincent.com/wiki/%40executable_pat
2019-10-30T17:12:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://wincent.com/wiki/%40executable_path%2C_%40load_path_and_%40rpath
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2019-10-30T17:13:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've recently been experimenting with configuring ASDF to dump all its compilation results into my application bundle, so I can use this to find annoying things like osicat.dylib
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2019-10-30T17:24:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess he missed that again :)
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2019-10-30T18:11:57Z kapitanfind-us: Hi folks! I am newbiing my way into CL and asdf
2019-10-30T18:12:31Z kapitanfind-us: Question I have: say I have a system and I run sbcl and want to load a system from my local my-package.asd
2019-10-30T18:13:01Z kapitanfind-us: why isn't asdf:load-system not working? do I need to do something else?
2019-10-30T18:14:53Z mfiano2: It has to be located in a path asdf looks for, unless you call asdf:load-asd before asdf:load-system
2019-10-30T18:15:07Z kapitanfind-us: ok let me try that
2019-10-30T18:15:20Z kapitanfind-us: (because it is located in the same folder I think)
2019-10-30T18:16:01Z mfiano2: IIRC it also needs to have a filename the same as the system name, sans file extension
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2019-10-30T18:16:49Z kapitanfind-us: yes so load-asd worked but load-system till throws
2019-10-30T18:17:24Z mfiano2: That's because your project is located in a path asdf doesn't look for
2019-10-30T18:17:28Z Bike: what error is signaled? could you link a pastebin somewhere?
2019-10-30T18:18:12Z kapitanfind-us: yes well I am using sly and did `sly` on the .asd file
2019-10-30T18:18:19Z kapitanfind-us: let me see if I can do that
2019-10-30T18:19:36Z mfiano2: `sly` on the asd file? That just starts up an image and sets the current working path to that of the file. sly doesn't load an asd
2019-10-30T18:20:30Z kapitanfind-us: yep that is why I am trying to do load-system
2019-10-30T18:20:41Z mfiano2: By the way, it is common practice to use Quicklisp rather than asdf directly in most situations
2019-10-30T18:21:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: kapitanfind-us: what I do is (asdf:load-asd (truename "my-system.asd"))
2019-10-30T18:21:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: then (ql:quickload :my-system)
2019-10-30T18:23:04Z kapitanfind-us: fiddlerwoaroof: so do I understand right, you "compile" first then use a package manager to load it back in memory
2019-10-30T18:23:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: no, quickload does the compilation
2019-10-30T18:23:33Z dlowe: and the laoding
2019-10-30T18:23:35Z kapitanfind-us: I see
2019-10-30T18:23:48Z kapitanfind-us: so load-asd just sets up paths
2019-10-30T18:24:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah
2019-10-30T18:24:55Z kapitanfind-us: (it is great to understand the moving parts)
2019-10-30T18:25:26Z kapitanfind-us: ok so my next question would be, is there a way to set this up every time I launch sbcl (via sly)
2019-10-30T18:26:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's probably a hook you can setup, but I don't really find this worth automating
2019-10-30T18:26:36Z dlowe: kapitanfind-us: you might also be interested in the #clschool channel
2019-10-30T18:26:48Z kapitanfind-us: dlowe: I am definitely :D thank you
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2019-10-30T20:58:24Z no-defun-allowed: Are there any libraries or any code for writing out a ratio as a decimal number?
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2019-10-30T21:01:27Z Shinmera: you mean a floating point, or the denominator/numerator separately?
2019-10-30T21:01:55Z Josh_2: you can coerce to singl/double float?
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2019-10-30T21:02:58Z no-defun-allowed: (Looking at that stupid pidigits benchmark) I have a lot more precision than what a float can provide.
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2019-10-30T21:04:06Z Shinmera: When printing a ratio with ~f your implementation may or may not use a more precise method to print it
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2019-10-30T21:05:09Z no-defun-allowed: Doesn't look like it on SBCL.
2019-10-30T21:06:24Z no-defun-allowed: Nor on Clozure.
2019-10-30T21:11:32Z mfiano2: You can setf the float digit precision to anything on clisp
2019-10-30T21:14:21Z Bike: what are you doing that you need more than double precision, out of curiosity
2019-10-30T21:15:25Z no-defun-allowed: Writing out 10,000 digits of Pi for some godawful reason.
2019-10-30T21:16:20Z Bike: for that specific case you could use a spigot algorithm
2019-10-30T21:16:30Z Bike: might save memory versus keeping giant bignums around
2019-10-30T21:17:02Z no-defun-allowed: I think there is one on that Wikipedia page.
2019-10-30T21:17:28Z mfiano2: #+clisp(progn (setf (long-float-digits) 10000) pi)
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2019-10-30T22:21:53Z pfdietz: Specifically, it would get into a mode where it ignored interrupts.  If I then caused an error, it would throw an interrupt condition instead of the intended error.
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2019-10-30T22:26:51Z phoe: pfdietz: I think you wanted to be in #sbcl
2019-10-30T22:27:06Z pfdietz: Oops, yes
2019-10-30T22:27:46Z pfdietz: ty
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2019-10-31T00:42:23Z phoe: Implementors of #lisp: do we have anyone proficient with debugging ANSI LOOP? I am trying to fix ANSI-TEST failures on CCL.
2019-10-31T00:42:48Z phoe: One of them is the infamous (loop for x of-type (integer 1 5) from 1 to 5 collect x) that fails on safe code because (setq x 6) is happening behind the scenes.
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2019-10-31T00:43:36Z Bike: you're trying to debug what, the macro?
2019-10-31T00:43:44Z Bike: or the use
2019-10-31T00:46:39Z phoe: the macro
2019-10-31T00:46:58Z phoe: the above code is correct (either that, or ANSI-TEST is broken)
2019-10-31T00:47:19Z phoe: but with declaim optimize speed 3 it fails to run on CCL.
2019-10-31T00:48:12Z White_Flame: "the loop terminates when the variable var passes the value of form2"  Sounds like the bug is with the test.  The actual variable is supposed to breach past the "to" value
2019-10-31T00:48:46Z pjb: phoe: the implementation needs a hidden loop variable…
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2019-10-31T00:51:21Z White_Flame: hmm, no I think I might be wrong.  That's from downto/upto.  "to" specifically flags an ending value, not a threshold
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2019-10-31T01:02:59Z phoe: pjb: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1535#1535
2019-10-31T01:04:24Z phoe: I asked specifically about ANSI LOOP because this implementation of LOOP is what is used inside CCL.
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2019-10-31T01:09:16Z pjb: phoe: this expansion is clearly wrong.
2019-10-31T01:09:36Z pjb: the (if (> x '5) …) is dead code, since x has been declared (integer 1 5).
2019-10-31T01:09:45Z phoe: pjb: yes, this is why CCL fails ANSI-TEST LOOP.1.39
2019-10-31T01:10:43Z phoe: pjb: dead code per se isn't invalid, it just won't be reached and a sufficiently smart compiler will optimize it away
2019-10-31T01:14:45Z White_Flame: well, it will be reached because the actual integer really ranges from 1 to 6
2019-10-31T01:14:57Z phoe: White_Flame: unless an error is signaled.
2019-10-31T01:15:02Z White_Flame: right
2019-10-31T01:15:05Z phoe: And this is exactly what happens in CCL in safe code.
2019-10-31T01:15:18Z phoe: Quick question - could anyone declaim optimize safety 3 in CCL and then evaluate this?
2019-10-31T01:15:21Z phoe: (loop for x of-type (integer 1 5) from 1 to 5 collect x)
2019-10-31T01:15:30Z phoe: I mean a reasonably fresh CCL, if anyone has it around
2019-10-31T01:15:55Z White_Flame: I still think the test itself is badly written.  Its declaration mislabes what ranges it asks LOOP to calculate for X
2019-10-31T01:16:25Z White_Flame: from CLHS: (let ((x 1)) (loop for i from x by (incf x) to 10 collect i)) =>  (1 3 5 7 9)
2019-10-31T01:16:42Z phoe: White_Flame: welcome to ANSI LOOP
2019-10-31T01:16:50Z White_Flame: whee
2019-10-31T01:17:16Z pjb: The value 6 is not of the expected type (integer 1 5). on "Version 1.12-dev (v1.12-dev.4-4-gd9740256) Darwinx8664"
2019-10-31T01:18:05Z phoe: pjb: exactly this
2019-10-31T01:18:17Z phoe: uhhh kasdjfskjdhsdf
2019-10-31T01:18:20Z phoe: I meant ECL
2019-10-31T01:18:21Z White_Flame: in http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_abaa.htm is "stepped[1]" supposed to refer to the glossary with that [1]?
2019-10-31T01:18:23Z phoe: god damn it
2019-10-31T01:18:30Z phoe: I meant a fresh ECL, not CCL, gah it's late
2019-10-31T01:18:42Z phoe: I ask because ECL also uses a modified ANSI LOOP and maybe it has fixed this issue already.
2019-10-31T01:19:10Z White_Flame: "step v.t., n. 1. v.t. (an iteration variable) to assign the variable a new value at the end of an iteration, in preparation for a new iteration."
2019-10-31T01:19:39Z White_Flame: so again, clearly for x from 1 to 5 sets x to 6
2019-10-31T01:20:05Z pjb: (1 2 3 4 5) on "16.1.3"
2019-10-31T01:21:00Z phoe: pjb: so that is fixed over there, hmmm
2019-10-31T01:21:08Z phoe: I will need to analyze ecl sources then
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2019-10-31T05:28:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-10-31T05:29:11Z beach: phoe: As I recall, I didn't make that mistake in SICL LOOP.
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2019-10-31T05:59:52Z LdBeth: Hello beach
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2019-10-31T06:34:37Z jackdaniel: phoe: ansi loop is a dwim mess (not portably extensible at that)
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2019-10-31T06:37:40Z jackdaniel: phoe: also I think you mean "MIT LOOP", not "ANSI LOOP", I'm not aware of any LOOP implementation released by ansi comitee ;)
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2019-10-31T07:46:27Z no-defun-allowed: Is https://github.com/deadtrickster/safe-queue the repository that Quicklisp safe-queue is cloned from?
2019-10-31T07:46:59Z jackdaniel: you may check it in quicklisp-projects repository
2019-10-31T07:47:37Z no-defun-allowed: Right, let's see then.
2019-10-31T07:48:11Z no-defun-allowed: Yep, looks like it is.
2019-10-31T07:48:53Z no-defun-allowed: There is a little typo in the lparallel backend: the word "mailbox" should be replaced with "queue" in the documentation and lambda list in queue-empty-p.
2019-10-31T07:50:04Z Cymew: PR?
2019-10-31T07:50:37Z no-defun-allowed: Done that, but I haven't a clue how long it'll take to go through.
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2019-10-31T07:51:30Z no-defun-allowed: Though this maintainer looks a lot more active then the last one I wrote a PR for.
2019-10-31T07:52:37Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, that last one is about as active according to GitHub ):
2019-10-31T07:53:14Z Cymew: Sad.
2019-10-31T07:53:26Z Cymew: Maintenance fork, maybe?
2019-10-31T07:53:38Z no-defun-allowed: Would it be impolite to "bump" the last one if we haven't gotten a response in six months?
2019-10-31T07:53:47Z jackdaniel: preemptive fork sounds like a plan ,)
2019-10-31T07:53:52Z jackdaniel: no-defun-allowed: it wouldn't
2019-10-31T07:54:04Z Cymew: No, go and bump.
2019-10-31T07:54:12Z no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/jsmpereira/heroku-buildpack-cl/pull/9 is getting a little stale.
2019-10-31T07:54:24Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe I should update the SBCL version in mine, too.
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2019-10-31T07:56:49Z Cymew: A bit stale.
2019-10-31T07:57:14Z Cymew: Looks like a fast moving piece of tech, though. PaaS and cloud in the same sentence.
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2019-10-31T07:57:20Z no-defun-allowed: Does this sound nasty in any way? "I hate to be rude, but it has been six months since I wrote this PR and haven't really gotten a response. It is fairly possible that users of this buildpack have had some troubles compiling programs as a lot of unportable extensions have changed significantly, as well as some portable ones too (uiop for example). Merging this would probably be a good idea."
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2019-10-31T07:57:39Z Cymew: I'd post it.
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2019-10-31T07:58:06Z no-defun-allowed: Alright, thanks.
2019-10-31T07:58:30Z jackdaniel: I've heard that practically everything before ", but" has its meaning reversed ;)
2019-10-31T07:58:30Z Cymew: I'd never heard of Heroku before. Does that mean it has been superceded or that I'm lagging behind? ;)
2019-10-31T07:58:43Z jackdaniel: so I'd skip that part and start with "It has been six …" ,)
2019-10-31T07:58:56Z no-defun-allowed: jackdaniel: https://www.xkcd.com/2146/
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2019-10-31T07:59:48Z no-defun-allowed: Cymew: You put code on it, it passes it through a "buildpack" to dump an image, it runs the image. Not the worst serverless architecture I can come up with, but it took some adjustment to get used to.
2019-10-31T08:00:47Z no-defun-allowed: More so because only six languages, none of which I know how to write or wouldn't dare writing a server in, are properly supported and the rest of us just get API specifications.
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2019-10-31T08:01:21Z no-defun-allowed: Those are good, but they don't make for good learning material. Like trying to learn a non-programming language by skimming a dictionary.
2019-10-31T08:01:37Z Cymew: It does fill a niche, I guess.
2019-10-31T08:02:15Z no-defun-allowed: It fills my niche of "host for broke people that want to host servers" fairly well.
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2019-10-31T08:29:16Z jackdaniel: minion: registeration please
2019-10-31T08:29:18Z minion: watch out, you'll make krystof angry
2019-10-31T08:29:22Z jackdaniel: hum
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2019-10-31T08:36:34Z flip214: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-31T08:36:34Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=82a381b7 will be valid until 08:45 UTC.
2019-10-31T08:36:37Z flip214: jackdaniel: ^^
2019-10-31T08:36:59Z flip214: jackdaniel: at :29 you'd only have had a single minute to register anyway ;)
2019-10-31T08:37:08Z jackdaniel: thank you, I thought that it wil lbe useful for hjudt
2019-10-31T08:37:20Z shka__: no-defun-allowed: chill, most of the pull requests are ignored forever
2019-10-31T08:37:21Z flip214: yeah, I just wanted to send that ;)
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2019-10-31T08:49:47Z phoe: jackdaniel: I think so, yes
2019-10-31T08:50:40Z no-defun-allowed: shka__: ):
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2019-10-31T08:57:45Z gaqwas: hello
2019-10-31T08:57:56Z jackdaniel: o/
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2019-10-31T09:02:31Z beach: Hello gaqwas.
2019-10-31T09:04:08Z beach: gaqwas: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
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2019-10-31T09:04:31Z gaqwas: beach, yes, it's my first time here. :)
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2019-10-31T09:05:06Z beach: Welcome!  What brings you to #lisp?
2019-10-31T09:07:01Z gaqwas: I've started fiddling around with Common Lisp a few days ago and thought I could learn more by reading what's being discussed here and possibly asking questions now and then.
2019-10-31T09:07:33Z beach: Sounds good.
2019-10-31T09:07:34Z gaqwas: I only started a few days ago but wished I had discovered it twenty years ago...
2019-10-31T09:07:38Z gaqwas: :)
2019-10-31T09:08:14Z beach: I know what you mean.
2019-10-31T09:08:37Z jackdaniel: from what I've been told you'd enjoy plenty of flamewars on the usenet around that time ;)
2019-10-31T09:08:50Z gaqwas: hehe
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2019-10-31T09:24:28Z beach: gaqwas: What implementation did you choose?
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2019-10-31T09:25:36Z gaqwas: I'm currently toying with Portacle, so SBCL.
2019-10-31T09:25:58Z beach: OK.
2019-10-31T09:27:10Z hjudt: minion: registration, please?
2019-10-31T09:27:10Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=8d02f622 will be valid until 09:30 UTC.
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2019-10-31T09:27:44Z gaqwas: beach, which implementation do you use?
2019-10-31T09:27:50Z gaqwas: what*
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2019-10-31T09:28:12Z beach: Also SBCL at least for now.  It's a popular choice here.
2019-10-31T09:28:25Z gaqwas: Okay.
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2019-10-31T10:23:11Z luis: SBCL is quite amazing.
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2019-10-31T10:26:06Z shidima: Is there a way to step through my code in emacs with sly / slime?
2019-10-31T10:26:36Z shidima: I set up a trace with sly, but I would like to step through the code line by line if possible
2019-10-31T10:28:05Z no-defun-allowed: STEP might help.
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2019-10-31T10:28:52Z shidima: Just found an artical about that in the cookbook. Will look into it thanks
2019-10-31T10:30:09Z no-defun-allowed: You'll have the best experience with it if you evaluate (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 3) (speed 1))) so all debugging information is preserved and no optimisations that could mess with what you expect to be evaluated are enabled.
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2019-10-31T10:57:39Z mabox: Did ya ideology like at Cristosan.com
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2019-10-31T11:01:27Z no-defun-allowed: Colleen: ramble about ideology
2019-10-31T11:01:28Z Colleen: Couldn't think of anything about ideology.
2019-10-31T11:01:59Z no-defun-allowed: Colleen: ramble about mabox
2019-10-31T11:01:59Z Colleen: Couldn't think of anything about mabox.
2019-10-31T11:02:19Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: don't.
2019-10-31T11:02:41Z no-defun-allowed doesn't
2019-10-31T11:02:55Z no-defun-allowed: Someone let their markov chain run off.
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2019-10-31T12:01:29Z shka__: hi
2019-10-31T12:02:03Z shka__: how do i obtain path to the loaded lisp system?
2019-10-31T12:04:00Z thijso: shka__:  (asdf:system-source-directory system-designator)
2019-10-31T12:04:02Z thijso: I think
2019-10-31T12:04:28Z shka__: this looks good, thanks
2019-10-31T12:04:42Z thijso: So, something like (ql:quickload :bla-system) then (asdf:system-source-directory :bla-system)
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2019-10-31T12:11:48Z Shinmera: you can retrieve the source directory even if it's not loaded, as long as the ASD can be found.
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2019-10-31T12:19:32Z thijso: Ah, makes sense, Shinmera
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2019-10-31T13:21:07Z dlowe: if you want a file inside the system, asdf:system-relative-pathname is really useful
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2019-10-31T13:35:32Z Shinmera: I prefer to calculate the path myself via compile-file-pathname/load-pathname to avoid the ASDF dependency inside the project.
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2019-10-31T14:49:27Z luis: Shinmera: I just did (ql:quickload :qtools-opengl) then (qtools-opengl:main) on Windows and it... worked. Nice job. :)
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2019-10-31T14:54:49Z Shinmera: Thanks
2019-10-31T14:55:15Z Shinmera: Windows is less problematic for external dependencies than the other systems
2019-10-31T14:55:36Z phoe: *unless it comes to building those external dependencies from source
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2019-10-31T14:59:03Z jackdaniel: build once profit for a lifetime! (https://blog.0patch.com/2017/11/did-microsoft-just-manually-patch-their.html :)
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2019-10-31T15:03:12Z p_l: 32bit code from 1993 still works in most recent windows 10, so...
2019-10-31T15:06:45Z jackdaniel: I'm still waiting for the part which comes after so ,p
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2019-10-31T15:09:38Z p_l: equation editor being 17 years old binary at the time of writing that article wasn't as crazy ;)
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2019-10-31T17:46:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Has anyone here ever used CL to connect to an Arduino over a serial port?
2019-10-31T17:54:51Z edgar-rft: fiddlerwoaroof: the only thing I found is https://github.com/snmsts/cserial-port
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2019-10-31T18:15:29Z asarch: Hello amigos! ¿Cómo están?
2019-10-31T18:15:31Z asarch: :-)
2019-10-31T18:15:37Z ober: mejor que nada
2019-10-31T18:15:50Z asarch: I found an old copy of my IRC logs of Hexchat
2019-10-31T18:15:54Z asarch: ¡Qué bien ober!
2019-10-31T18:16:12Z ober: what was your nickname then?
2019-10-31T18:16:24Z asarch: However, it's a little bit out of date (for almost a year)
2019-10-31T18:16:28Z asarch: The same one
2019-10-31T18:16:48Z asarch: Would you mind to repeat everything we have chat so far?
2019-10-31T18:16:57Z asarch: JK :-P
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2019-10-31T18:20:29Z asarch: My question was: how did Lisp do the low-level coding for its Lisp machines? With opcodes or directly with S-Expressions?
2019-10-31T18:21:34Z ebrasca: asarch: Hola
2019-10-31T18:21:53Z asarch: ¡Bandaaa!
2019-10-31T18:22:03Z asarch: :-)
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2019-10-31T18:24:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: asarch: there are logs in the topic
2019-10-31T18:24:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2019-10-31T18:24:55Z asarch: Yeah, I know. I just was kidding :-P
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2019-10-31T20:17:11Z ricman: hello, Im a newbie with both irc and lisp, I was wondering. Is there a way in common lisp to get help about the standard library? something like (help "list")
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2019-10-31T20:19:01Z Josh_2: ricman: this? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
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2019-10-31T20:21:14Z ricman: Josh_2: I guess, I meant something integrated in the REPL itself but i guess that'll do
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2019-10-31T20:21:58Z Josh_2: C-c C-d C-d to describe symbol :)
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2019-10-31T20:22:22Z dlowe: ricman: you can use (documentation symbol t)
2019-10-31T20:22:38Z Josh_2: or C-c C-d C-h to look up in hyperspec
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2019-10-31T20:23:15Z dlowe: the spec is better to read though
2019-10-31T20:23:35Z ricman: thanks, god that HyperSpec page is hideous. C-c C-d C-h is a repl command or some emacs shortcut?
2019-10-31T20:23:42Z dlowe: I have http://xach.com/clhs?q=%s bookmarked so that I can look up the spec easily
2019-10-31T20:23:47Z Josh_2: emacs keybinding ricman
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2019-10-31T20:25:23Z _death: ricman: set your browser to eww or w3m-emacs instead of using browsers that have hideous defaults
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2019-10-31T20:28:39Z Josh_2: There are a few incomplete alterations of the standard around
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2019-10-31T21:41:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: the dpans pdf is really pretty :)
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2019-10-31T21:45:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's also this: https://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=cl:functions:digit-char
2019-10-31T21:45:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: but it's sort of stalled, I think
2019-10-31T21:47:50Z phoe: yes
2019-10-31T21:48:06Z phoe: waiting for the time when I have the time/energy/will to continue working on it
2019-10-31T21:48:18Z Josh_2: drink some tea :)
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2019-10-31T21:57:57Z phoe: like, in general
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2019-10-31T22:02:11Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: the dpans tex sources are interesting also
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2019-10-31T22:03:45Z Josh_2: Drink some tea in general xD
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2019-10-31T22:33:10Z seok: how does shadowing work?
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2019-10-31T22:33:17Z seok: could someone direct me to a tutorial?
2019-10-31T22:33:22Z seok: I don't really get CLHS
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2019-10-31T22:38:10Z LdBeth: seok: basically a package is a data structure maps string to interned symbol objects
2019-10-31T22:39:45Z LdBeth: in such a sense shadowing is just get the same string to another different symbol so the old one cannot be accessed with the package
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2019-10-31T22:40:35Z housel: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html might be helpful
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2019-10-31T22:42:38Z LdBeth: Or simply remove the entry of the string, if no new symbol is supplemented
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2019-10-31T22:57:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wish packages supported renaming imports
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2019-10-31T23:00:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can use symbol-macros, I guess, but it'd be nice to be able to resolve conflicts between imports by renaming one of them inside a package
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2019-10-31T23:04:42Z no-defun-allowed: Then symbol names would change between packages, which would be a bit odd.
2019-10-31T23:05:12Z no-defun-allowed: (Well, that's the point, but if you look at symbols as interned strings, then you have to wonder what string you're interning.)
2019-10-31T23:05:55Z LdBeth: http://www.flownet.com/gat/locales.pdf
2019-10-31T23:06:27Z LdBeth: fiddlerwoaroof: there’s such a proposal
2019-10-31T23:07:26Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: Depends on how you see it. The way I'd do "renaming" is to simply introduce a new concept or something, so the symbol foo:bar "refers to" baz:quux in some sense. I guess care would have to be taken because it would probably just inherit references so macros expecting the symbol baz:quux must get the symbol baz:quux instead of the "renamed" bar (i.e. foo:bar)
2019-10-31T23:07:41Z LdBeth: Maybe there’s a chance have this feature in SICL
2019-10-31T23:08:24Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: but essentially, the object being referred to by baz:quux would now also be referred to by foo:bar, for all types of objects (functions, variables, etc.)
2019-10-31T23:08:28Z White_Flame: readtables support SET-SYNTAX-FROM-CHAR which lets you map 1 character's functionality in an "imported" readtable to a different character in your readtable, so there's some precedent for that sort of functionality
2019-10-31T23:09:04Z White_Flame: the biggest question is what would the SYMBOL-NAME be?
2019-10-31T23:09:33Z White_Flame: likely, the name of my-package::foo (imported from other-package:bar) would be "BAR"
2019-10-31T23:09:55Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: It could, but currently a symbol name is just held in the slot %name, which probably doesn't have multiple values.
2019-10-31T23:10:14Z White_Flame: the printer would probably be able to show the local name, if you're in my-package
2019-10-31T23:10:25Z aeth: White_Flame: Imo, it should have the new symbol name, and you just have to be aware that it won't work with some macros. If it's a foo it's "foo". What's inherited is the references to e.g. the functions or macros, so it's a zero-cost alias (instead of e.g. making a trivial function that just calls the old function)
2019-10-31T23:10:34Z no-defun-allowed: And I have to wonder how the printer would handle it too. Would it favour the renamed -- hey, don't read my mind please.
2019-10-31T23:10:45Z LdBeth: no-defun-allowed: cl lexicon solve this problem by implement another layer of modules system
2019-10-31T23:11:07Z LdBeth: So the symbol name stays consistent
2019-10-31T23:11:20Z White_Flame: aeth: then you're not actually importing the symbol itself, but making a new one, whose value in any namespace needs to map to the other symbol
2019-10-31T23:11:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wouldn't want to rename the referenced symbol, just have the reader map a certain name in the current package to the imported symbol
2019-10-31T23:11:37Z White_Flame: right
2019-10-31T23:11:40Z LdBeth: See the link I gave
2019-10-31T23:11:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Alternatively, the symbol could have a hashtable of package->name
2019-10-31T23:12:14Z aeth: White_Flame: Right. So if new-package::foo refers to old-package:bar, then it's still the symbol new-package::foo with the symbol-name "FOO" instead of "BAR" it's just that it inherits any object referred to by old-package:bar. Ideally, keeping things in sync so a redefinition of #'old-package:bar updates #'new-package::foo
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2019-10-31T23:12:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wouldn't want that because I don't want the new package to be "in control"
2019-10-31T23:13:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: this handles the case where I want to have both cl:+ and matrix-math:+ in my current package without package prefixes
2019-10-31T23:15:21Z aeth: I don't see what you mean. With my proposal, you'd just alias matrix-math:+ to m+ or whatever, and (m+ m1 m2) will work as expected. If symbol-name of e.g. m= is "=" instead of "M=" for matrix-math:= then you could do this: (loop with x m= 1 ...) and that's absurd
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2019-10-31T23:17:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't want aliasing to mess with the symbol-name because that makes the symbol-name of a symbol depend on the current set of loaded packages
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2019-10-31T23:17:14Z aeth: right
2019-10-31T23:17:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: As far as your case goes, we'd either have to respecify the behavior of loop or say "don't do stupid things"
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2019-10-31T23:18:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: The way loop handles its keywords is already a bit weird, I'd be fine with either requireing (loop with x := 1) or requiring that the keywords be in the cl package
2019-10-31T23:19:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. (loop cl:with x cl:= 1)
2019-10-31T23:20:49Z no-defun-allowed: So, I'm using split-sequence to split a string with 100,000 lines, and Clozure is about 4x slower at splitting and I believe that's the slowest part of my program now. Is there anything I can do to split faster?
2019-10-31T23:22:06Z aeth: probably
2019-10-31T23:22:11Z aeth: split-sequence is designed for general purpose use
2019-10-31T23:22:57Z LdBeth: Do use read-sequence
2019-10-31T23:23:06Z aeth: If e.g. split-sequence does bounds checking, then making a function with a type declaration with your exact string type (including the length) could speed things up. Or doing a length check and then turning safety off locally around the iteration (assuming that you can do that in your implementation)
2019-10-31T23:23:10Z no-defun-allowed: Using a string input stream and read-line is barely faster.
2019-10-31T23:23:39Z aeth: Oh, also inlining the string-splitting function (even if it's large) would have a similar effect of removing the bounds check if done right
2019-10-31T23:24:05Z aeth: Essentially specificizing generic code.
2019-10-31T23:24:27Z aeth: You could also just not split strings, working with :start and :end, which nearly every string/sequence function takes in, if your specific problem permits that.
2019-10-31T23:24:39Z aeth: (Or subseq once, at the very end.)
2019-10-31T23:26:16Z aeth: If you're reading the string from a file or the network, you could try working in it as bytes instead of as characters, too.
2019-10-31T23:26:33Z aeth: (i.e. octets)
2019-10-31T23:27:06Z no-defun-allowed: Hm.
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2019-10-31T23:39:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: I got tired of split-sequence being slow and implemented my own split
2019-10-31T23:40:06Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: a while ago or recently? split-sequence got a big rewrite based on conversations in #lisp maybe a few months ago or so. earlier this year iirc
2019-10-31T23:40:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I dunno, I also don't like s-s's API
2019-10-31T23:40:22Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, I should test cl-strings as well. The name would suggest they know some string things.
2019-10-31T23:40:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/fwoar.lisputils/blob/master/string-utils/split.lisp
2019-10-31T23:40:27Z aeth: The problem is that iirc it didn't handle vectors and lists separately until recently
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2019-10-31T23:40:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think this is a year or two old
2019-10-31T23:41:06Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: eh... idk, if your main concern is performance, you often/usually need to write your own things, that's just how things go
2019-10-31T23:41:16Z aeth: Often the general/proper solution is at odds with the performant one
2019-10-31T23:41:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, at the time, I managed to split a multi-gigabyte csv file significantly faster with this than split-sequence
2019-10-31T23:42:33Z no-defun-allowed: cl-strings is indeed faster, at 170ms rather than 240ms.
2019-10-31T23:43:06Z aeth: well, that's not too surprising because it's less generic (strings instead of sequences)
2019-10-31T23:43:23Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: When I did write my own reader, it ran at half the speed of split-sequence.
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2019-10-31T23:46:27Z no-defun-allowed: And I would really like to avoid writing my own splitter because that would be more code I have to maintain.
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