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2019-09-01T02:07:30Z remexre: vaguely off-topic, but about a CL lib: I'm trying to define a minikanren goal for cl-kanren that does membership queries of vectors
2019-09-01T02:08:00Z remexre: any tips for getting started? It feels like I'd have to determine whether the vector is instantiated or not, but that's Bad(TM), right?
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2019-09-01T03:51:23Z elderK: Guys, when does dcron run the daily scripts?
2019-09-01T03:52:25Z no-defun-allowed: C is half CL, I suppose
2019-09-01T03:53:29Z ck_: elderK: why don't you go look at the crontab and find out
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2019-09-01T03:56:59Z elderK: ck_: I have. It just says @daily.
2019-09-01T03:57:08Z elderK: I've also hunted through the manpages, to try and find out.
2019-09-01T03:57:14Z elderK: But I get varying information.
2019-09-01T03:57:29Z elderK: So, I assumed it would be midnight, or at least once a day. But that doesn't seem to be happening.
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2019-09-01T03:57:52Z elderK: Last time daily ran was 2150
2019-09-01T03:58:23Z elderK: Right, so it must be 2150. That seems to be when it runs, according to /log/cron
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2019-09-01T04:07:45Z no-defun-allowed: Is there a simple implementation of array-row-major-index?
2019-09-01T04:08:09Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, CLHS has one. Thanks, CLHS
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2019-09-01T04:11:27Z no-defun-allowed: clhs array-row-major-index
2019-09-01T04:11:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ar_row.htm
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2019-09-01T04:29:12Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-01T04:32:15Z ahungry: mornin
2019-09-01T04:33:11Z catchme: good morning
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2019-09-01T05:40:32Z dmiles:  how many symbols should COMMON-LISP export?
2019-09-01T05:42:37Z elderK: ck_: Oh, I'm sorry. Shit, I didn't realize I was in the wrong channel. God, what a fool.
2019-09-01T05:43:14Z dmiles: found it 978
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2019-09-01T08:44:40Z thijso: Security-wise, how stupid would it be to read-from-string on incoming data on an udp port? Would there be a way to make that secure? Would using json (or other methods) to serialize stuff be better or are there security implications with that too (when used in a CL application)?
2019-09-01T08:50:36Z Shinmera: Very, no, depends, yes.
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2019-09-01T08:51:04Z Shinmera: That is of course, assuming the connections are not controlled by you and come from the outside world.
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2019-09-01T09:03:59Z thijso: Shinmera: I was afraid of that. Connections are controlled by me, but not guaranteed to be, so I'm not eager to take that risk.
2019-09-01T09:05:06Z Shinmera: It's a bad idea because READing can intern symbols, which will stick around, so someone could keep allocating new symbols until you run out of memory.
2019-09-01T09:05:16Z thijso: I'm thinking of a group of apps communicating with each other. They all speak the same lingo. But an udp port is an udp port. Anyone can talk to it if they discover where it's at.
2019-09-01T09:06:01Z thijso: Is that the only problem?
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2019-09-01T09:06:36Z Shinmera: I'm sure security experts could talk about other problems, but I wouldn't know.
2019-09-01T09:06:42Z thijso: Is READing not a bigger risk target for targetted hacking attempts? Maybe I should read up on this stuff first...
2019-09-01T09:07:17Z thijso: On the other hand, maybe I'm overthinking this...
2019-09-01T09:07:42Z thijso: The data will need to be encrypted anyway, so maybe that's enough of a safety layer.
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2019-09-01T09:20:35Z pjb: thijso: basically: remove all reader macros, but perhaps that for ( and ", bind *read-eval* to nil and *package* to a throwable package.
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2019-09-01T09:21:41Z pjb: thijso: the sender can still intern symbols in other packages by qualifying them however, so it would be nice to add a reader macro on all the consitituents to disable : and :: for qualified symbols, at which point you could have as well written your own parser.
2019-09-01T09:22:07Z pjb: thijso: read Chapter 2!
2019-09-01T09:23:16Z pjb: Honestly, given that the Chapter 1 is the Introduction with nothing transcendant, I don't understand how you people haven't all read Chapter 2 already!?!?  How can you use a programming language without knowing the basics?
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2019-09-01T10:18:14Z thijso: uhm...
2019-09-01T10:18:18Z thijso: chapters of what?
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2019-09-01T10:54:31Z beach: thijso: The standard, of course.
2019-09-01T10:54:31Z pjb: thijso: of clhs!
2019-09-01T10:54:46Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm
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2019-09-01T11:57:15Z thijso: :) I'll take a look...
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2019-09-01T13:36:29Z jeosol: Good morning
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2019-09-01T13:38:35Z beach: Hello jeosol.
2019-09-01T13:40:55Z jeosol: Doing great. Been away for a while due to schedule.
2019-09-01T13:41:39Z jeosol: I recently picked up few older CL books from ebay on cased-based reasoning, and NLP to learning some symbolic AI
2019-09-01T13:43:18Z beach: Congratulations.
2019-09-01T13:43:27Z jeosol: I have a question related to running shell commands from CL. I have to call a black box application to run in a particular directory that contains the input files (written by same CL application), then I create a linux command "cd directory && exe input-file
2019-09-01T13:44:19Z antoszka: jeosol: have a look at UIOP, it's got a portable interface for running commands.
2019-09-01T13:44:24Z jeosol: I execute the command with uiop:run-program and occasionally subprocess command errors. There is probably a better way to do it
2019-09-01T13:44:41Z antoszka: oh, you're already using it
2019-09-01T13:44:45Z jeosol: antoszka; thanks for your response, that's what I use already
2019-09-01T13:44:55Z antoszka: sorry, my terminal got stuck :)
2019-09-01T13:45:46Z jeosol: It runs, but after sometime, I get some weird errors about resource. I do that operation, e.g., 2000 times during a function call (in batches of say 20-30)
2019-09-01T13:45:49Z antoszka: if UIOP's acting strangely, you can use your implementation's facilities for that. It won't be portable, but maybe more reliable.
2019-09-01T13:45:57Z antoszka: sbcl?
2019-09-01T13:47:18Z antoszka: there's sb-ext:run-program there.
2019-09-01T13:47:29Z antoszka: And most will have something similar.
2019-09-01T13:47:30Z jeosol: @beach: Regarding the books, I wanted to learn how CL is used in that space.
2019-09-01T13:47:36Z semz: jeosol: what is the exact error?
2019-09-01T13:47:51Z jeosol: antoszka: I am using SBCL mostly, actually only
2019-09-01T13:47:57Z antoszka: yeah, try that maybe
2019-09-01T13:48:58Z antoszka: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Running-external-programs
2019-09-01T13:49:12Z antoszka: it's a pretty rich interface
2019-09-01T13:49:17Z beach: jeosol: Sounds good.  Do you have PAIP?
2019-09-01T13:49:21Z jeosol: (UIOP/RUN-PROGRAM::%CHECK-RESULT 1 :COMMAND #<(SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (225)) cd /home/username/data/lisp/outputdir/ ..:PROCESS NIL :IGNORE-ERROR-STATUS NIL)   source: (CERROR "IGNORE-ERROR-STATUS" 'SUBPROCESS-ERROR :COMMAND COMMAND                   :CODE EXIT-CODE :PROCESS PROCESS)
2019-09-01T13:49:36Z jeosol: @beach: Yes, I do have a copy.
2019-09-01T13:51:22Z antoszka: Norvig himself says the book is dated wrt teaching AI techniques, but it's probably still the best Common Lisp textbook.
2019-09-01T13:52:01Z jeosol: @semz: The error could be related to resource usage or something. I usually don't get these errors. Sometimes, it errors from running command to link a file, i.e., "ln -s file1 file2"
2019-09-01T13:54:21Z jeosol: antoszka: I thought on specification implemention, uiop:run-program will be using sbcl specific tools. I did that before but switch back to uiop:run-program for portability
2019-09-01T13:55:11Z antoszka: Yeah, UIOP falls back to sbcl-specific tools probably, but there may be some abstraction layer that just breaks.
2019-09-01T13:55:24Z pjb: jeosol: if you insist on @semz:, you should probably add it to the de-facto IRC standard way, since this won't be detected by normal irc clients.  Try:  semz: @semz: …
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2019-09-01T13:56:15Z jeosol: I apologize, my bad
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2019-09-01T14:47:02Z semz: jeosol: this doesn't look like the error message, but i'd guess that the subprocess doesn't exit with code 0
2019-09-01T14:47:04Z semz: but with code 1 instead
2019-09-01T14:47:14Z semz: so something seems to be going wrong with the helper program
2019-09-01T14:48:09Z semz: if that's intended for some reason, set IGNORE-ERROR-STATUS when doing the UIOP call
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2019-09-01T15:27:03Z learning: I wish i was as passionate about JavaScript as I am about Lisp lol
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2019-09-01T16:30:17Z mrcode_: what's the best way to rotate the entire list by 1 with rotatef ? is that the right mechanism to do that?
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2019-09-01T16:31:38Z makomo: mrcode_: no, rotatef rotates "places"
2019-09-01T16:32:19Z makomo: the alexandria library has a rotate function for sequences
2019-09-01T16:33:06Z mrcode_: makomo: so is it possible to rotate a list by rottaing places in a list or is that not how that works?
2019-09-01T16:33:28Z makomo: to understand what a place (a generalized variable/reference) is, see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/05_a.htm
2019-09-01T16:34:27Z makomo: a place is a "syntactic construct" introduced by the SETF macro, it's not a first-class thing you can manipulate as a value
2019-09-01T16:34:42Z makomo: i.e. you can't have a list of places
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2019-09-01T16:35:05Z mrcode_: hmmm
2019-09-01T16:35:09Z mrcode_: i see
2019-09-01T16:35:30Z makomo: but, if you knew the size of your list/sequence in advance, you could use rotatef i guess
2019-09-01T16:36:14Z makomo: as in, (rotatef (aref seq 0) (aref seq 1) ... (aref seq n)) :D
2019-09-01T16:37:23Z makomo: depends really on what you're looking for. my guess is that you want alexandria:rotate
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2019-09-01T16:41:18Z mrcode_: makomo: well, i kind of want a rotate but also in place :)
2019-09-01T16:41:24Z mrcode_: is that possible ?
2019-09-01T16:44:08Z makomo: sure, yeah, you just have to find the proper library (or write such a function yourself)
2019-09-01T16:44:25Z makomo: reading the alexandria:rotate docstring, it says "Note: the original sequence may be destructively altered, and result sequence may share structure with it."
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2019-09-01T16:45:24Z mrcode_: ok
2019-09-01T16:45:50Z makomo: so it looks like it destructively modifies the sequence, i.e. does the rotation in-place
2019-09-01T16:47:13Z makomo: hmm, "destructive" and "in-place" are not the same actually, because the rotation algorithm needs extra space to perform the rotation
2019-09-01T16:48:41Z makomo: so it's destructive (modifies the original sequence), but not completely in-place :)
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2019-09-01T16:58:11Z mrcode_: makomo: gotcha. i cobbled something together real quick with rplaca/rplacd instead
2019-09-01T16:58:35Z mrcode_: at the expense of keeping a reference to the tail of the list
2019-09-01T16:58:44Z mrcode_: s/at the expense/with help of/
2019-09-01T16:59:06Z makomo: instead of using (rplaca/rplacd cons x) you can also use (setf (car/cdr cons) x)
2019-09-01T16:59:38Z mrcode_: yeah
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2019-09-01T17:38:37Z pjb: You can rotate a list in place, but not with rotatef, with shiftf!  (defun rotate-list (list) (shiftf (rest (last list)) list (rest list) nil) list)  (let ((list (list 1 2 3 4))) (rotate-list list)) #| --> (2 3 4 1) |#
2019-09-01T17:38:37Z pjb:  
2019-09-01T17:39:19Z pjb: You can insist on rotatef, by introducting a temp variable bound to nil and from which you can retrieve the result.
2019-09-01T17:41:36Z mrcode_: thx pjb
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2019-09-01T19:14:12Z Nomenclatura: When you can't pass a captcha, does it mean you are a robot?
2019-09-01T19:15:03Z cl-arthur: Yes.
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2019-09-01T19:16:01Z Nomenclatura: bbeep bop then
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2019-09-01T19:33:30Z aeth: Google knows more than me so if Google thinks you're a robot...
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2019-09-01T19:45:04Z Josh_2: Hi, I just tried to ql:quickload :usocket and get an error that split-sequence can not be found
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2019-09-01T19:47:03Z Josh_2: OH wait I think I fixed hit by cleaing the asdf config twice ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ
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2019-09-01T19:48:57Z Josh_2: had to delete next browser for some reason as well
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2019-09-01T19:51:32Z LdBeth: Nomenclatura: if you cannot pass captcha it’s because you are trying to troll a robot
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2019-09-01T20:25:56Z Josh_2: wow finally managed to get clicking working on my app, so now can control my laptop from my mobile phone :O
2019-09-01T20:26:16Z Josh_2: had to disable async errors for my x11 connection
2019-09-01T20:28:54Z Josh_2: It's a bit primitive only supporting 1080p screens and only mouse movement with button down and up events but you can move things around highlight text click play and pause on a film :P
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2019-09-01T20:29:55Z Josh_2: Pretty chuffed with that :D
2019-09-01T20:31:50Z Josh_2: 4 month old problem
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2019-09-01T21:08:04Z vsync: ugh
2019-09-01T21:08:12Z vsync: just remembered paste.lisp.org is disabled somewhy
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2019-09-01T21:31:33Z notzmv: for ages now
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2019-09-01T21:33:59Z jeosol: antoszka: My interest is in developing cognitive systems in CL, knowledge representation, reasoning, etc -- symbolic AI. I am no expert though, but I am willing to start from extremely simple problems.  Later, I will look at connectionist approaches and see how to combine them
2019-09-01T21:34:40Z jeosol: deepmind had a paper where they combined both approaches.
2019-09-01T21:35:14Z antoszka: Cool, I don't really know much about modern AI techniques either. Did some introductory courses, but not really touching upon even remotely current state of the art.
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2019-09-01T21:41:08Z dmiles: programs like SWALE, DAYDREAMER etc are some great cognitive systems in CL
2019-09-01T21:41:30Z jeosol: not sure Norvig would have meant, but modern "modern AI" now, people tend to refer to DL/connectionist methods, while the symbolic-ai/gofai would be considered old, but there are some relatively recent improvements
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2019-09-01T21:41:49Z jeosol: dmiles: thanks for that. I look them up.
2019-09-01T21:42:45Z dmiles: well most of the connectionist ideas from the 80s finnaly have machines capable of trying them out
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2019-09-01T21:43:04Z dmiles: but all the GOFAI of the 80s now have the same operatunity!
2019-09-01T21:43:32Z pjb: Notably, you can collect gigabytes of symbolic data from the web!
2019-09-01T21:43:48Z jeosol: dmiles: that is very true. I don't think it's modern, just that recent computation  improvements made things feasible
2019-09-01T21:45:06Z jeosol: recent approaches are integrating neural nets and rule-based systems. I am looking to get some CL rule-based system and possibly link with Garbor melis or other CL-based NN libraries to see how far I go
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2019-09-01T21:46:50Z dmiles: the Baysian/NN folks (i was one in 1987) said it was all just a scale problem
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2019-09-01T21:47:22Z dmiles: the GOFAI folks (i was one in 1990s) said it was all just a combinatorial optiizations problem
2019-09-01T21:47:24Z jeosol: dmiles: you worked a lot with CL in this space?
2019-09-01T21:48:00Z dmiles: pjb:: oh and of course a Data Collection problem
2019-09-01T21:49:16Z dmiles: jeosol: only in the last few years .. mostly before that it was in otehr languages
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2019-09-01T21:49:55Z dmiles: out of the 3 problems: faster computer, data avaiablity, and combinatorial optimization..  this last thing is still problem
2019-09-01T21:51:08Z dmiles: well it is problem for most, except for a special project called CYC
2019-09-01T21:51:11Z jeosol: what about coupling proxies/surrogate models for the optimization, at least reduce function evaluation calls
2019-09-01T21:51:17Z learning_: i only program so that i don't feel bad about doing nothing on the internet
2019-09-01T21:51:38Z dmiles: jeosol: that is exaclty what CYC does :) it produces lazy approximators
2019-09-01T21:52:08Z jeosol: I see.
2019-09-01T21:52:59Z jeosol: What about the aspect of knowledge representation, like codifying concepts from numerical to categorial, e.g., Low, Medium, and High.
2019-09-01T21:53:15Z dmiles: for exmaple if i was to query about "all redheaded woman over 40 with cancer" .. instead of seaching over 4 billion women..  it makes up 8 groups for fake woman
2019-09-01T21:53:59Z dmiles: oh and even group of women it logically misidentifies
2019-09-01T21:54:15Z pjb:  Lazy approximators can also be created with labelled SOMs.
2019-09-01T21:54:24Z jeosol: dmiles: are you referring to CYC in the above?
2019-09-01T21:54:29Z dmiles: yes
2019-09-01T21:55:20Z moldybits: learning_: are those the only two options?
2019-09-01T21:57:00Z jeosol: dmiles: Isn't CYC one of the better tools out there? I have never used it though
2019-09-01T21:57:07Z dmiles: also in CYC, we are able to represent numerical probability in a much clearer non-numerical ways
2019-09-01T21:57:45Z dmiles: well i think it is the best :)  comming in second is PowerLOOM
2019-09-01T21:58:24Z jeosol: someone here mentioned CYC to me a few weeks ago.
2019-09-01T21:59:27Z dmiles: the problem with CYC/PowerLOOM though is so far they have not dealt with problems of Agency (and AI that thinks) they jsut dealt with teh infrastrucural problems it would take to make a program that thinks
2019-09-01T21:59:43Z jeosol: my use case, it so to try to develop a cognitive system that can understand some physics concepts (fluid mechanics)
2019-09-01T22:00:44Z dmiles: For example.. had we a program tht thinks.. it might store its hypothethical (immagined models) in CYC/PowerLOOM
2019-09-01T22:01:15Z dmiles: Even its physics models
2019-09-01T22:01:19Z jeosol: You mean think on it's own, or have code that reasons over a limited set of cases
2019-09-01T22:02:46Z dmiles: A Program that thinks = A program that has a particular task that it is tryinbg to make possible
2019-09-01T22:03:04Z dmiles: (Agency)
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2019-09-01T22:04:10Z dmiles: It's toploop might be the task to figure out how to build some device or solve some science problem
2019-09-01T22:05:07Z dmiles: OR task might be to be able to answer questions about a book it's read
2019-09-01T22:06:24Z learning_: moldybits: it's just a joke man. i'm programming in js right now and my project is an html5 game from scratch. today i've just been really unproductive so i'm just joking that the work i've done today was to not feel like i failed myself
2019-09-01T22:07:47Z dmiles: vs what CYC does is gives a relaiable set of alorithems for storing/retriving the  mechanical diagrams or episodic memories of the processes it went thru while initally reading the book
2019-09-01T22:07:59Z learning_: i got an enemy on the screen, collision checking, and the ability to kill the player or the enemy. and im really happy with my top level code.
2019-09-01T22:08:16Z jeosol: dmiles: thanks for that. In your example, my use case problem is solve some science problem -- recommend optimal actions to take
2019-09-01T22:08:23Z learning_: 	if(detect_collision(main_guy,bad_guy)){
2019-09-01T22:08:23Z learning_: 		kill(main_guy)}
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2019-09-01T22:09:08Z jeosol: You recommend looking into CYC for my use case?
2019-09-01T22:09:32Z pjb: Always look into CYC!
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2019-09-01T22:10:26Z jeosol: pjb: haha. Thanks. Will do. What about it's source code/open sourced
2019-09-01T22:10:49Z dmiles: Agency helps when a program is learning new methods/actions and organizing those for itself
2019-09-01T22:11:12Z dmiles: (to solve scientific problems)
2019-09-01T22:11:42Z jeosol: So realistically, it will take more than a few function evaluations right?
2019-09-01T22:12:05Z dmiles: CYC wont do that on its own but i think would be impossible to even start gettign it done until one first created CYC
2019-09-01T22:12:39Z dmiles: jeosol: right
2019-09-01T22:12:47Z jeosol: Some guy, I was debating, say they have a system that can propose near optimal solution and only needs one evaluation to verify objective function.
2019-09-01T22:13:38Z jeosol: I smelled BS. The system he described hasn't worked for small problems.
2019-09-01T22:14:29Z dmiles: when i (or even Doug Lenat) talk abotu CYC's capabilities we to can sound very BSy to though
2019-09-01T22:15:05Z jeosol: dmiles: lol.  Are there good references you recommend.
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2019-09-01T22:16:06Z jeosol: Realistically, I think a system can start with some expert/physics rules (which it can use to eliminate evaluating certain invalid/infeasible cases) but it will still need some evaluation on the real problem to learn structure/surfaces, etc
2019-09-01T22:17:30Z jeosol: you and Doug Lenat worked on this. very nice.
2019-09-01T22:17:52Z dmiles: right .. that " start with some expert/physics rules (which it can use to eliminate evaluating certain invalid/infeasible cases).. " is what CYC is meant to do
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2019-09-01T22:18:43Z dmiles: not with Lenat but worked for a few of his parners on CYC
2019-09-01T22:19:24Z dmiles: it kind of sucks gettign a hold of documetnation for CYC and the Cycorp website jsut underwent a major redo so all the docs are 404
2019-09-01T22:19:33Z jeosol: ok. The wiki page is rich. I will start there. I need to learn how to encode ideas, knowledges, concepts, etc
2019-09-01T22:19:46Z dmiles: but they exist at least on archive.org for now
2019-09-01T22:20:21Z dmiles: also soem friends and i allow CYC to now run arbitrarty common lisp programs inside of it
2019-09-01T22:20:36Z dmiles: added that capability*
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2019-09-01T22:21:33Z dmiles: so that all the algrithems and infernce capabilites are inline to your code
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2019-09-01T22:22:52Z dmiles: CYC turns out in this case to be what would happen if all the book code (of doing AI in common lisp) was built into a shared ecosystem
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2019-09-01T22:24:01Z jeosol: Isn't CYC written in SubL or sth like that. There is directly compatibility with CL
2019-09-01T22:24:05Z dmiles: (and highly optimized from paying coders 800million $ to optimize it)
2019-09-01T22:24:47Z dmiles: YEah CYC is in SubL.. its a small subset made so it can be tranalated to C or C++//Java/etc eailiy
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2019-09-01T22:25:39Z dmiles: inj the case of powerLOOM (it uses STELLA) to edo the same thing
2019-09-01T22:27:10Z dmiles: SubL/STELLA identifies a subset of CL .. but then adds some other features ....... in the case of STELLA tranlates to CommonLisp .. jsut havent doesn that with CYC yet
2019-09-01T22:27:11Z jeosol: so its possible to use it from within CL code or how does the integration/coupling work.
2019-09-01T22:27:36Z dmiles: https://github.com/TeamSPoon/CYC_JRTL_with_CommonLisp
2019-09-01T22:27:58Z dmiles: I merged the SubL Lisp system with ABCL
2019-09-01T22:29:01Z dmiles: so that there woiuld be no thunkage when calling each other.. .. I deleted the impl of whichever of the two overlapped and was eaker
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2019-09-01T22:29:41Z dmiles: whichever of the two overlappage was weaker.. sometimes preserving both
2019-09-01T22:30:11Z jeosol: thanks for the link.
2019-09-01T22:30:52Z dmiles: ABCL provided the CL reference impl so i could make sure i reatianed all of CL
2019-09-01T22:31:25Z dmiles: While still being abler to compile and run SubL programs (like CYC!)
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2019-09-01T22:32:59Z no-defun-allowed: Is there a free(-ish) database for Cyc?
2019-09-01T22:33:09Z dmiles: the channel for the project is #logicmoo
2019-09-01T22:33:28Z jeosol: I see. how much effort with sbcl (naive question)
2019-09-01T22:33:33Z dmiles: well most of us are using an old research cyc licence
2019-09-01T22:33:46Z dmiles: (for the KB content)
2019-09-01T22:35:04Z dmiles: well right now it is not possible with SBCL since all the code would need tranalted back from Java to SubL or CL
2019-09-01T22:35:22Z dmiles: translated back
2019-09-01T22:35:58Z dmiles: since we only have the post-translated (SUBL2JAVA) code
2019-09-01T22:36:46Z dmiles: though there is another person that is going to work onj the JAVA2SUBL translator.. but he needs help and motivation
2019-09-01T22:36:47Z jeosol: Ok. So only possible with ABCL?
2019-09-01T22:37:02Z dmiles: since our goal is to use SBCL
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2019-09-01T22:37:49Z dmiles: its jsut if you waited for us to do that.. we wont get arround to it since we have too many AI-things we dong already to rewrite the system to merely do what it already does
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2019-09-01T22:38:14Z dmiles: yet we all stay awake dreaming at night wishing someone would do it
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2019-09-01T22:38:48Z jeosol: How difficult is it for someone not familiar with the code base?
2019-09-01T22:40:33Z dmiles: for me who've studies the codebase for 20 years it would take me 2 full months
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2019-09-01T22:40:52Z jeosol: wow. Hmm, not easy I guess
2019-09-01T22:41:09Z pjb: So, 20 years + 2 months.
2019-09-01T22:41:13Z dmiles: well to not lose any functionallty.. to make it shippable as before
2019-09-01T22:42:00Z dmiles: someone who knows the system less might take 4 months i guess
2019-09-01T22:42:07Z dmiles: 2 months to get to know the code
2019-09-01T22:43:01Z dmiles: the only thing the 20 years gained me is the knowledge that i have no reason to fix the ugly design of stuff.. i know why that ugly was there
2019-09-01T22:43:35Z dmiles: like SUBLOOP subsystem is cycorps own version of CLOS
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2019-09-01T22:44:34Z dmiles: i know better than to replace it at first is all :)
2019-09-01T22:45:20Z jeosol: So in your estimate, for this to work with SBCL, one is looking at 4 months. Full time?
2019-09-01T22:45:59Z dmiles: yes
2019-09-01T22:46:31Z dmiles: i and another would also assist part time
2019-09-01T22:47:04Z jeosol: And this is a need right? You said above, your plan is to use SBCL eventually
2019-09-01T22:47:21Z dmiles: for sure yes
2019-09-01T22:47:43Z dmiles: but it suck to spend a month and then give up
2019-09-01T22:47:58Z jeosol: #logicmoo is the channel for the project?
2019-09-01T22:48:08Z jeosol: Yeah, I agree.
2019-09-01T22:48:41Z jeosol: Not an expert in this area, but what taking a stab at it, given what it may make available to the SBCL ecosystem (not sure of the license and other issues)
2019-09-01T22:49:19Z dmiles: yeah there are otehr issues like liciencing that makes it anti-climactic to work on
2019-09-01T22:49:35Z dmiles: though we dont care.. we want the tool!
2019-09-01T22:50:20Z jeosol: like illegal for users
2019-09-01T22:50:27Z dmiles: right
2019-09-01T22:51:04Z dmiles: it not somethnig that can go into a commercial project etc
2019-09-01T22:55:22Z dmiles: http://pdkb.org/wiki/index.php/SubL
2019-09-01T22:55:31Z dmiles: that is the language docs
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2019-09-01T23:00:13Z dmiles: CYC was written/designed to make all the toy expert systems of the 70/80s viable
2019-09-01T23:01:18Z dmiles: none of the GOFAI ciode would ever work until it had a CYC platform to be installed on
2019-09-01T23:02:20Z dmiles: it would always feel like a toy held together by string.. CYC changtes that
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2019-09-01T23:03:32Z jeosol: Thanks for the link. SubL similar to CL.  in many aspects. How does this compare to the state of the art, similar systems in other languages.
2019-09-01T23:04:33Z jeosol: regarding your previous license comment, any work or extension can only be used in research scope not commerical
2019-09-01T23:05:18Z dmiles: for performance see table 2 of  https://www.aaai.org/Papers/Workshops/2005/WS-05-01/WS05-01-006.pdf  .. even if those numbers seemed cooked even by x100 .. it is still x10 faster
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2019-09-01T23:07:05Z dmiles: well i am going to create AGI with it.. i doubt a pricetag can be placed on what can be done with CYC
2019-09-01T23:07:18Z dmiles: one plac ei worked paid 800k a year to lease cyc
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2019-09-01T23:08:19Z dmiles: in other words i doubt licencing is going to be possible to even negatiate
2019-09-01T23:09:00Z jeosol: wow, that's insane. What is the difference with ResearchCYC (as in the paper) and CYC
2019-09-01T23:10:32Z dmiles: not really any differnt nowadays it costs too much money to maintain differnt vbersions
2019-09-01T23:11:24Z dmiles: more or less its how many *features* get left in
2019-09-01T23:11:34Z jeosol: From the paper, Cyc is order's of magnitude faster than other systems
2019-09-01T23:12:54Z dmiles: and still is.. it is because 10,000 hours of stupid hand optimizations went in everytime we saw cyc doing something that could have done better
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2019-09-01T23:13:19Z no-defun-allowed: can you use Cyc to optimise Cyc?
2019-09-01T23:13:58Z dmiles: of course the answer is yes.. but no ones had time tro show anyone how
2019-09-01T23:14:31Z no-defun-allowed: hah
2019-09-01T23:14:41Z dmiles: it does optimize itself.. jsut not in all the ways i know how to have it optiiza itself
2019-09-01T23:16:49Z dmiles: here is a paper showing CYC using a NN to opimtize itself ..
2019-09-01T23:18:59Z dmiles: sory i have to ask spomeone where the paper is
2019-09-01T23:19:50Z dmiles: https://educationdocbox.com/80586775-Homework_and_Study_Tips/Guiding-inference-with-policy-search-reinforcement-learning.html
2019-09-01T23:20:05Z no-defun-allowed was joking around, don't stress yourself
2019-09-01T23:20:15Z no-defun-allowed: O.o
2019-09-01T23:20:42Z dmiles: cyc uses many other ways to self optimize
2019-09-01T23:21:33Z dmiles: it just hard to tunes and decide the right ones to continue using
2019-09-01T23:21:51Z dmiles: erm to continue to develop
2019-09-01T23:22:28Z no-defun-allowed: right
2019-09-01T23:24:04Z dmiles: the good part it is the only system that has this infrastucture that made any of that possbile
2019-09-01T23:26:41Z dmiles: oops i lie PowerLOOM has it as well.. but its all stubs that no one has taken time to use
2019-09-01T23:28:46Z dmiles: but that infrastructure allows one to see when combinatorialism is optimizable
2019-09-01T23:30:15Z jeosol: thanks for link. Naive question: It is possible to develop a KB from scratch but for a small specific problem (e.g., weather prediction or other  physics domain), or one has to use something with the power Cyc
2019-09-01T23:30:23Z dmiles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurisko
2019-09-01T23:30:42Z dmiles: (explains Cyc's infrastructure for this)
2019-09-01T23:31:05Z jeosol: I understand the physics area of interest, but flirting with the idea of being able to encode the knowledge of an experienced engineer in that specific domain
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2019-09-01T23:31:54Z dmiles: Yuo can do it without CYC but you wuill fall into Greenspuns rule
2019-09-01T23:32:48Z dmiles: you will build an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half CYC
2019-09-01T23:33:39Z dmiles: of half of* CYC
2019-09-01T23:34:50Z dmiles: i am someone that used to have to do that all the time
2019-09-01T23:35:42Z jeosol: haha. Ok. So Cyc can be used for arbitrary problems.
2019-09-01T23:36:37Z dmiles: yes.. its sort of like and Appache webserver for arbitrary webserving
2019-09-01T23:36:40Z jeosol: From the linked page, it is possible to learn new heuristics and concepts in new domain, without explicitly coding for these?
2019-09-01T23:36:52Z jeosol: ok, thx
2019-09-01T23:37:05Z dmiles: CYC is for arbirtary programs that need access to algrythems and KB-like Knowedge engineering
2019-09-01T23:37:10Z jeosol: That makes sense to understand, how Cyc is used
2019-09-01T23:38:13Z dmiles: often you might even add a new plugged in module to CYC to make it perform a specific optimized way of seeign wather radar
2019-09-01T23:38:24Z dmiles: weather radar
2019-09-01T23:39:10Z dmiles: like people have been adding chemistry simulators to CYC
2019-09-01T23:39:31Z dmiles: all the setup teardown of the experiments happen thru the KB
2019-09-01T23:40:47Z dmiles: you can perform query that changes things up and combine things
2019-09-01T23:42:31Z jeosol: ok. that sounds like the option I was thinking. I have a physics simulator that CYC could use to evaluate scenarios.
2019-09-01T23:43:09Z dmiles: also finding/results are recorded to the KB for more complex sorts of experimental aggregation.. and all experiments are described in both a high and low level that CYC can infer new things not obvious
2019-09-01T23:43:31Z jeosol: The guy I mentioned from other AI company claim they can solve the problem using a lower resolution representation of the environment and not full-physics evaluation.
2019-09-01T23:44:21Z jeosol: very nice. I think it's that sort of aggregation, combination, etc, that humans do to solve a problem.
2019-09-01T23:44:49Z jeosol: Also, does CYC do explainability? Like how the solutions was obtained and a reasoning trace/audit trace of the solution
2019-09-01T23:45:03Z jeosol: > audit trail ...
2019-09-01T23:45:28Z dmiles: well waht cyc does is makes unrelated representations (differing resolution/details) all meet at at least some level of exchangablity
2019-09-01T23:46:15Z dmiles: cyc yoilds a proof of every opteration (which is used to explain the results)
2019-09-01T23:47:38Z jeosol: very interesting. So as a CL user now (Sept 1 2019), my only hope of testing and demonstrating these features is if I use ABCL?
2019-09-01T23:51:04Z dmiles: examples  it might say "it was this way because i used A then B .." https://allenai.org/content/team/peterc/publications/halo-ai-magazine.pdf
2019-09-01T23:51:08Z LdBeth: good afternool
2019-09-01T23:51:24Z dmiles: Cyc requires all things it uses in a process to be epxlainable .. even when vauge
2019-09-01T23:51:53Z jeosol: what about making inferences on say missing features and including uncertainty in the overall process, e.g., uncertainty in the values of a feature
2019-09-01T23:51:59Z dmiles: oops wrong paper
2019-09-01T23:52:36Z dmiles: yeah t deals with undertainaty very well and doesnt hide the fact when it hyphosizes
2019-09-01T23:52:46Z dmiles: with* uncertainty
2019-09-01T23:53:09Z dmiles: it tries to keep track and understand what data might be missing
2019-09-01T23:53:44Z dmiles: in order to fill in gaps.. it also tries to track how much it doesnt know
2019-09-01T23:53:55Z dmiles: (i mean doesnt know on a deep level)
2019-09-01T23:54:17Z jeosol: In this system, does one have to encode some domain expert rules, or it can figure things on it's own, e.g., an NN learns how to recognize a dog in picture after significant training.
2019-09-01T23:54:38Z dmiles: my goal is whenever something compil;es/works on ABCL it will in CYC_CL
2019-09-01T23:54:51Z jeosol: Yeah, from your description, Cyc, really does a lot. And this chat has been very useful, and the links to papers
2019-09-01T23:56:01Z dmiles: if a NN was good at recognising dogs.. that would only be usefull at that point to plug that NN input/output to somethning like cyc
2019-09-01T23:56:27Z dmiles: in order to finally make use of some workflow that cares
2019-09-01T23:56:34Z jeosol: I see. NN case was only an example.
2019-09-01T23:57:01Z jeosol: What I have is a physics simulator that an agent, Cyc, etc. may use to evaluate a given policy, set of actions.
2019-09-01T23:57:06Z dmiles: "does one have to encode some domain expert rules" not always.. there are many ways CYC has arroudn that
2019-09-01T23:57:45Z jeosol: But compared to an experience engineer, they can pick a good, manual solution  e.g., within a few % of an optimized solution.
2019-09-01T23:58:30Z dmiles: (cyc can learn rules to be induction )
2019-09-01T23:58:31Z jeosol: Some approaches have the problem of having to seat with a domain expert to encode rules, etc.
2019-09-01T23:59:25Z dmiles: well the chemistry stuff needed chemeists to explain all the rules so cyc can simulate it even without the offline imulator module.. or even be able to check the results of the offline system
2019-09-02T00:00:12Z dmiles: but the idea of having the offline chemsim was for speed
2019-09-02T00:00:24Z jeosol: I have access to a physics simulator in my case, a wrapper written in CL (SBCL).
2019-09-02T00:01:41Z dmiles: in your case you'd probalb ydo what the chemistry people did.. set up ways of letting cyc perform the experiemnts and get results back
2019-09-02T00:02:02Z dmiles: i am sure if iyt wroks in SBCL you can make it work in ABCL to
2019-09-02T00:02:02Z jeosol: The closest analogy for my use case, if having to place N fire stations in a city and the tool/agent comes up with optimized locations and associated explainability. E.g., place on at location X because of population density, access to highways, previous fire cases, etc
2019-09-02T00:02:18Z jeosol: but not the Cyc functionality right?
2019-09-02T00:02:32Z dmiles: oh well there are several steps in "porting" your app to ccy
2019-09-02T00:02:39Z jeosol: Yeah, I can get that part wrapped up in ABCL
2019-09-02T00:03:17Z dmiles wroite up what "porting to CYC means" sinc eit snot about code but about removing yourself from the workflow
2019-09-02T00:03:20Z jeosol: -> working with ABCL. There are no specific SBCL features as I recall, but I never compiled in any other implementation
2019-09-02T00:04:21Z dmiles: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Uk7-OKEqnrDIpYbNrMDXrIPzEkX01M6BUclVPwWcJps/edit#heading=h.7nsqb4hmlaiu
2019-09-02T00:05:58Z dmiles: only the first level of bullets.. i jsut pasted stuff in to give exmaples..
2019-09-02T00:07:33Z dmiles: though eventually at the bottem the simulator no long exists and CYC is doing it :P
2019-09-02T00:11:55Z jeosol: It will take me sometime to learn everything. Also, I need to know prolog well for this right?
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2019-09-02T00:12:48Z jeosol: I would like to test and setup a small problem for my understanding.
2019-09-02T00:13:10Z dmiles: knowing prolog does help me write CycL yeah
2019-09-02T00:13:37Z jeosol: I will check ebay for some good book. Any recommendations?
2019-09-02T00:14:14Z dmiles: but any backgrtound in KR&R like.. https://dai.fmph.uniba.sk/~sefranek/kri/handbook/handbook_of_kr.pdf
2019-09-02T00:16:00Z dmiles: " having to place N fire stations in a city and the tool/agent comes up with optimized locations and associated explainability."   is a good exmaple
2019-09-02T00:17:07Z dmiles: where your representation is at least shared
2019-09-02T00:17:22Z dmiles: the problem is described in cycl etc
2019-09-02T00:17:37Z dmiles: CycL = Cyc's internal KR&R Language
2019-09-02T00:18:07Z dmiles: So this way its explainations are understandanle
2019-09-02T00:18:39Z dmiles: where scenarios and hacked as KB assert/retract
2019-09-02T00:18:58Z dmiles: where scenarios *are* defined as KB assert/retract
2019-09-02T00:20:13Z dmiles: Oh but no Prolog nescsary
2019-09-02T00:20:32Z dmiles: it just that some of my external modules are writtne in Prolog instead of CycL
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2019-09-02T00:20:34Z jeosol: Thanks dmiles. Knowledge representation is something I want to understand
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2019-09-02T00:22:47Z jeosol: so that book will be useful. I saw high-order logic on Cyc's wiki page, so figured I need to do some background reading.
2019-09-02T00:36:16Z dmiles: very good link to understanding the CycL langauge https://web.archive.org/web/20190114191839/http://www.cyc.com/subl-information/el-hl-and-canonicalizer/
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2019-09-02T00:37:14Z gabbiel: can methods be defined under lexical bindings?
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2019-09-02T00:37:54Z aeth: flet but for methods?
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2019-09-02T00:38:44Z gabbiel: yes
2019-09-02T00:39:44Z aindilis: jeosol: if you're interested in Cyc, I'm going to be doing a tutorial on it on IRC sometime in the next few months, if you'd like to participate I can notify you ahead of time
2019-09-02T00:42:57Z jeosol: Yes, I am very interested.
2019-09-02T00:43:17Z aindilis: great, if you want, pm me your email, otherwise I will just try to reach you here
2019-09-02T00:43:26Z jeosol: I have archived the books and papers dmiles linked above and will working through the KRR book above
2019-09-02T00:43:36Z aindilis: yeah that's a great book
2019-09-02T00:43:42Z aindilis: very thorough
2019-09-02T00:45:33Z jeosol: Yeah,  I looked at the Cyc wiki page, it mentions terms I don't quite get yet, so I'll need a book to understand those terminologies.
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2019-09-02T00:54:02Z remexre: anyone know how to add additional supported types to cl-kanren? I would expect it would just be overridding equalp and unify-impl, but that seems insufficient
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2019-09-02T02:27:55Z seok: anybody using parenscript?
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2019-09-02T02:33:19Z remexre: is there a good way to track down a bug tracker for a quicklisp package?
2019-09-02T02:34:11Z remexre: wait, never mind, it's in the readme lol
2019-09-02T02:38:26Z aeth: remexre: the source repository for everything is in https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects
2019-09-02T02:38:38Z aeth: but a good project should probably put it in the README and even in the .asd file.
2019-09-02T02:39:15Z aeth: The ASDF system definition lets you say homepage, bug-tracker, and source-control
2019-09-02T02:41:47Z remexre: huh, ok; I was confused because the project didn't show up on google and the homepage was quickdocs
2019-09-02T02:42:00Z remexre: but it turns out my ctrl-f skills were just weak :P
2019-09-02T02:42:29Z remexre: looks like :bug-tracker is there in the asd file, though, yeah
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2019-09-02T03:00:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-09-02T03:01:04Z jeosol: Good morning beach. Bien venue
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2019-09-02T03:08:10Z beach: Thanks!
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2019-09-02T03:18:18Z jeosol: Still here since you left earlier. Had a lengthy useful session with dmiles regarding Cyc.
2019-09-02T03:18:38Z beach: I saw it.
2019-09-02T03:20:07Z jeosol: I should be here more often. Gotten a lot of useful resources and ideas to get me started.
2019-09-02T03:23:47Z beach: Yes, there are many smart and knowledgeable people hanging out in #lisp.
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2019-09-02T03:50:09Z LdBeth: beach: what's the mininal requirement for a buffer update protocal to work with incremental parsing?
2019-09-02T03:50:36Z beach: LdBeth: Tough question.
2019-09-02T03:51:48Z beach: I guess it must be possible to detect regions that may have been modified between two invocations of the parser.
2019-09-02T03:52:00Z beach: But those regions don't have to be exact.
2019-09-02T03:52:26Z beach: For example, Cluffer does it with the granularity of an entire line.
2019-09-02T03:56:41Z beach: Then it depends on how fancy you want to be.  For Cluffer, I made my life a bit harder in order to get more flexibility.  For instance, I assume that there can be several simultaneous "views", with potentially different parers, into the same buffer, and that there can be an arbitrary number of modifications to the buffer between two parser invocations.
2019-09-02T03:57:36Z LdBeth: beach: If multiple places has been edited during two invocations, is it  possible to just send texts with positions?
2019-09-02T03:59:29Z beach: What do you mean by "send"?  I have not considered that possibility.  In Cluffer, the views invoke a protocol function to see the contents of the buffer.
2019-09-02T04:02:05Z LdBeth: beach: oh, I mean the possiblity of modifing an existed editor to communicate with parser backend
2019-09-02T04:03:51Z beach: I have not considered that possibility.  I suspect you would have to make some radical changes to the editor since most editors would not be written to accommodate such things efficiently.
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2019-09-02T04:09:20Z LdBeth: It is just I'm surprised to know that VSCode can support incremental parsing via http://tree-sitter.github.io/tree-sitter/ with almost no pain
2019-09-02T04:11:42Z beach: Yes, well, there are several problems with such an approach if you want an editor for Common Lisp.
2019-09-02T04:11:55Z beach: But maybe you want to parse some other kind of text.
2019-09-02T04:31:12Z remexre: with quicklisp, what's the best way to accomodate a local fork? if I clone into local-projects, is that sufficient?
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2019-09-02T04:42:47Z ck_: yes
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2019-09-02T04:53:09Z beach: LdBeth: What is it that you are thinking of doing?
2019-09-02T04:57:56Z LdBeth: beach: it’s a tool integrates specification, documents, and program source code
2019-09-02T04:58:17Z beach: And what editor are you planning to modify?
2019-09-02T05:00:37Z LdBeth: Actually I have several candidates for operation model, but none of them has the desirable data structure
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2019-09-02T05:01:36Z beach: So that confirms my suspicion that you may have to make significant modifications for it to work.
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2019-09-02T05:02:55Z beach: And what language is used for the program source code?
2019-09-02T05:06:24Z LdBeth: It was planned to be Common Lisp, but some additional features should be added as some kinds of preprocessor and certain usages, especially some create affects to compilation has to be restricted
2019-09-02T05:07:07Z LdBeth: But the output should be regular CL code accepted
2019-09-02T05:07:13Z beach: I think I see.
2019-09-02T05:11:23Z LdBeth: The addition could be a more sophisticated module system, a documentation markup, a #+ #- alternatives controlled by more than features
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2019-09-02T05:18:54Z remexre: is there an equivalent of scheme's assp in the CL standard?
2019-09-02T05:19:09Z loke: What does it do?
2019-09-02T05:19:10Z remexre: e.g. (assp #'evenp '((1 x) (2 y) (3 z))) => (2 y)
2019-09-02T05:20:57Z loke: remexre: (remove-if-not #'evenp THE-LIST :key #'car)
2019-09-02T05:21:26Z remexre: isn't that mutating? or is it just misleadingly named? :P
2019-09-02T05:21:35Z loke: No, the mutating version is called DELETE
2019-09-02T05:21:36Z remexre: also just found assoc-if, which looks like it does that
2019-09-02T05:21:38Z remexre: huh, ok
2019-09-02T05:22:44Z loke: assoc finds the first element. remove-if-not returns all elements that matches
2019-09-02T05:22:56Z loke: It wasn't clear from your example what you wanted.
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2019-09-02T05:23:01Z remexre: er yeah, I just want/assp just returns the first
2019-09-02T05:23:07Z loke: assoc it is then
2019-09-02T05:23:09Z loke: Or FIND
2019-09-02T05:23:18Z loke: FIND is more general.
2019-09-02T05:23:29Z loke: (or FIND-IF in your case)
2019-09-02T05:25:04Z remexre: I guess assoc-if to avoid having to specify a key function lol
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2019-09-02T05:26:16Z loke: remexre: Pretty much. I think this mix of functions is for historical reasons. There was a desire to be compatible with Maclisp/Interlisp/etc so in some cases you got slightly different functions that could be just one.
2019-09-02T05:26:53Z remexre: i dunno, I'm kinda a fan of having a decent number of shorter aliases
2019-09-02T05:26:56Z loke: first/car for example, or the three different ways of defining accessors
2019-09-02T05:27:10Z remexre: I'm more peeved about the map/mapc/mapcar/etc family :P
2019-09-02T05:27:14Z loke: remexre: Creating more aliases is easy enough :-)
2019-09-02T05:27:25Z loke: remexre: No disagreement from me there.
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2019-09-02T05:29:21Z LdBeth: Nay
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2019-09-02T05:34:52Z remexre: is it generally considered better style to do #'(lambda ...) or (lambda ...)?
2019-09-02T05:35:06Z remexre: (As I understand it, the latter expands to the former?)
2019-09-02T05:36:20Z loke: Yes
2019-09-02T05:36:41Z loke: It's purely stylistic. I used to go with the former, but most lispers use the latter so I switched.
2019-09-02T05:37:46Z remexre: okay, I've been using the latter to avoid the extra two characters :p CLHS mainly uses the former, so I just wanted to be sure that it wasn't frowned upon or anything
2019-09-02T05:39:01Z loke: I've seen both. Bot the simple form definitely dominates
2019-09-02T05:39:25Z loke: I think the thing that ticks most lispers off is the use of camelCasing and putting ) on its own line.
2019-09-02T05:39:46Z loke: You show code that does that and no one will help you :-)
2019-09-02T05:40:06Z remexre: lol
2019-09-02T05:41:56Z loke: (defun SomeFunction (my_arg) ...)
2019-09-02T05:42:07Z loke: it was painful just typing that
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2019-09-02T05:43:07Z remexre: heh
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2019-09-02T06:09:41Z seok: which eql is used for (case ..)?
2019-09-02T06:09:50Z seok: it does not seem to work with strings
2019-09-02T06:18:23Z ck_: seok: "which eql"? Well, eql. You can macroexpand-1 it to find out yourself.
2019-09-02T06:18:42Z seok: yeah, i found string-case on quicklisp
2019-09-02T06:19:07Z seok: unfortunately alexandria's switch conflicts with parenscripts's switch
2019-09-02T06:32:18Z beach: seok: Don't :USE packages other than COMMON-LISP for that reason.
2019-09-02T06:33:01Z beach: seok: The code is much more clear if you use explicit package prefixes for symbols in packages other than the current one and the COMMON-LISP package.
2019-09-02T06:40:49Z beach: seok: Otherwise, you would put too much of a burden on library authors.  You would require them to make sure that not a single exported symbol they use must conflict with any other exported symbol in any other library.
2019-09-02T06:41:18Z beach: seok: And of course, that would render the Common Lisp package system completely useless.
2019-09-02T06:42:46Z beach: seok: Furthermore, by :USE-ing a package in a library, you might get into future trouble.  When a new version of the package comes out, more symbols may be exported, and your code may break due to conflicts that didn't occur with the previous version.
2019-09-02T06:43:27Z no-defun-allowed: I've usually considered Alexandria and split-sequence trivial and stable enough that using them poses no impact to clarity or burden to the reader, but if you must avoid prefixes, then use :import-from and be safe.
2019-09-02T06:46:51Z beach: Still, you would need to know every exported symbol of the package you use, and something as general as Alexandria may contain lots of them.  Otherwise, things can become very strange indeed.  Consider a definition such as (defclass foo ((.... :reader bar)))  You may very well get an error message saying that you attempt to define a method BAR on a generic function that takes more than one parameter.
2019-09-02T06:47:28Z beach: ... if it so happens that you did not know that BAR was an exported symbol in the Alexandria, and it is defined to be a generic function.
2019-09-02T06:48:14Z beach: Even if it has not function definition on it, you will get error messages referring to ALEXANDRIA:BAR, even though you defined it in your own package.
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2019-09-02T06:50:04Z beach: One more reason: Given the mediocre tools we have for refactoring, if you use explicit package prefixes, you can much more easily find all the occurrences of some symbol using tools such as `grep'.
2019-09-02T06:51:38Z beach: So even in a project such as SICL, containing many packages, I don't even :USE other SICL packages, even though I am in perfect control of them.
2019-09-02T06:51:57Z beach: I have found this practice to be a great help when I need to refactor code.
2019-09-02T06:54:37Z beach: One more reason: If your memory starts getting worse, which is inevitable over time, if you look at a symbol without a package prefix in some code of yours, it is not obvious that you can remember where it was defined, so at the very least, you need to consult SYMBOL-PACKAGE to find out.  But that breaks the "flow" when you are reading code.  I am using "you" to mean "one", not you personally.
2019-09-02T06:55:22Z beach: So my current practice is the result of having all the problems listed above at some point in time.
2019-09-02T06:58:03Z remexre: Can I give a lambda an ftype? Didn't see any way to from a quick peek in clhs
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2019-09-02T06:59:42Z beach: clhs ftype
2019-09-02T06:59:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ftype.htm
2019-09-02T07:00:14Z flip214: remexre: don't think so... ftype requires a function name. but you could use a gensym for the function name, then it's possible.
2019-09-02T07:00:39Z beach: remexre: FTYPE is for the function namespace,
2019-09-02T07:00:53Z flip214: depending on the implementation it might be "good enough" to specify the output type, eg. via (THE FIXNUM ...).
2019-09-02T07:01:00Z remexre: I guess, is there any way to get sbcl to give my type warnings :)
2019-09-02T07:01:27Z remexre: other whan (with-gensyms (name) `(flet (,name (...) (declare) ...) ,name)), I guess
2019-09-02T07:02:16Z remexre: than*
2019-09-02T07:02:17Z beach: remexre: You can use the FUNCTION type specifier.
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2019-09-02T07:02:35Z remexre: and do (the (function ...) (lambda ...)) ?
2019-09-02T07:02:47Z beach: That should work, yes.
2019-09-02T07:02:54Z beach: Wait, no maybe not.
2019-09-02T07:03:13Z beach: The FUNCTION type is strange.
2019-09-02T07:03:43Z beach: Because it is not generally possible to determine the type of a function.
2019-09-02T07:04:02Z beach: But I don't quite understand why people are so obsessed with types.
2019-09-02T07:04:27Z beach: I guess it must be a habit from using other languages with a static type system.
2019-09-02T07:04:27Z remexre: I'm dealing with some particularly weird types :)
2019-09-02T07:04:42Z remexre: higher-order functions returning higher-order functions
2019-09-02T07:05:15Z beach: Then even more reasons not to attempt to declare those types.
2019-09-02T07:05:45Z remexre: they are compatible with a normal hindley-milner type system, I'm just noticing myself making lots of mistakes
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2019-09-02T07:08:25Z beach: It is not easy to try to turn Common Lisp into ML or Haskell.
2019-09-02T07:08:37Z remexre: fair
2019-09-02T07:09:12Z remexre: like really I could probably get all the forcing-correct-usage I want by adding syntactic checking with a macro :P
2019-09-02T07:12:00Z remexre: I guess (funcall (the (function (fixnum) t) (lambda () 1))) "asdf") does give me a warning though, at least
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2019-09-02T07:17:03Z beach: remexre: Perhaps a silly question, but if static typing and compile-time reporting of type violations are such important features for you, why have you chosen to write your code in Common Lisp?
2019-09-02T07:17:28Z remexre: SLIME is honestly a killer feature for me
2019-09-02T07:17:34Z remexre: (well, slimv, but same difference)
2019-09-02T07:18:27Z remexre: and I've been doing lisp for a couple months and this is actually the first time I've gone down the "okay I want ahead-of-time type warnings" road, so
2019-09-02T07:18:41Z remexre shrugs
2019-09-02T07:22:15Z LdBeth: z
2019-09-02T07:24:21Z LdBeth: That's why people become multilingual
2019-09-02T07:25:23Z remexre: yeah, I'm coming from a haskell/rust background; this lib needs to do stuff with MOP and stuff though, so I don't wanna do it as a polyglot library or anything
2019-09-02T07:25:45Z LdBeth: o, well, typed racket has pretty good type inference
2019-09-02T07:25:46Z remexre: though I did play around with ABCL on graalvm, and it only took like a week to be able to dynamically load C code and call it from lisp
2019-09-02T07:26:18Z LdBeth: althought it's reeally SLOW for some reason
2019-09-02T07:26:20Z remexre: there's a lot of weirdness with LLVM on GraalVM though
2019-09-02T07:26:39Z remexre: yeah, in theory racket's getting a new, faster backend soon
2019-09-02T07:27:04Z remexre: the main racket language I've messed with is Pie, which isn't production-grade at all
2019-09-02T07:27:16Z remexre: if you type 1000000000 into the REPL, it allocates a few gigs of memory
2019-09-02T07:27:27Z LdBeth: they find the new backend eats lots of mem and CPU
2019-09-02T07:27:44Z remexre: darn
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2019-09-02T07:29:50Z remexre: maybe they'll get (declare (optimize *)) or (declare (compilation-speed *))
2019-09-02T07:31:00Z flip214: remexre: as you're a vim user, I'd like to tell you about vlime as well
2019-09-02T07:31:40Z LdBeth: remexre: actually in CL you usually want to write the type as the argument name
2019-09-02T07:32:01Z remexre: flip214: oh, does it do async? might switch to that tomorrow, even; bookmarking!
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2019-09-02T07:32:20Z remexre: LdBeth: like (defun foo ((x fixnum)))? I didn't think that worked
2019-09-02T07:32:30Z LdBeth: so you intution check that when slime prompts arglist
2019-09-02T07:32:36Z remexre: oh
2019-09-02T07:32:45Z remexre: like (defun bar (pred list))
2019-09-02T07:32:46Z LdBeth: remexre: no, it's like (defun foo (nat) ...)
2019-09-02T07:32:53Z LdBeth: yes
2019-09-02T07:33:11Z remexre: yeah, my types are like (function ((function (list) fixnum) fixnum) state) though :P
2019-09-02T07:33:50Z LdBeth: higher order function has penality in CL
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2019-09-02T07:34:53Z remexre: yeah, I'm porting code from a paper thou
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2019-09-02T07:34:55Z remexre: though*
2019-09-02T07:35:48Z LdBeth: if the type has certain schemes, you may encode the argments into a structure
2019-09-02T07:36:08Z remexre: I've been using lots of deftypes for now
2019-09-02T07:36:21Z LdBeth: and turn on typecheck on slots of structs
2019-09-02T07:37:17Z remexre: like just specify a :type ? or is there something else?
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2019-09-02T07:37:27Z LdBeth: right
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2019-09-02T08:42:53Z no-defun-allowed: Silly question: is it possible to pass a condition to another thread which presumably has a handler for that condition using bordeaux-threads?
2019-09-02T08:45:59Z scymtym: no-defun-allowed: you could INTERRUPT-THREAD the other thread with (lambda () (signal CONDITION)). this has a semi-decent chance of working as long as the handler doesn't transfer control. if possible, i would go for a more traditional inter-thread communication solution, though
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2019-09-02T08:46:19Z no-defun-allowed: (bt:interrupt-thread <thread> (lambda () (error ...))) seems good, but the docstring suggests I better use that sparingly.
2019-09-02T08:48:01Z scymtym: if you use ERROR to signal the condition, there will be a control transfer. that is the really unsafe part
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2019-09-02T08:51:42Z scymtym: for example, if the thread being interrupted is doing (with-open-file (stream …) …) which expands to something like (let ((stream (open …))) (unwind-protect … (when stream (close stream)))), it could be interrupted between completing the OPEN call and assigning the result to STREAM, so you would leak the stream when transferring control at that point, even if the UNWIND-PROTECT's clean-up code
2019-09-02T08:51:42Z scymtym: is executed
2019-09-02T08:51:59Z no-defun-allowed: Wait, (error) is different to (signal (make-condition 'simple-error ...))?
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2019-09-02T08:53:14Z scymtym: yes, SIGNALed conditions don't affect the "main" control flow if not handled. conditions signaled with ERROR do
2019-09-02T08:53:14Z jackdaniel: preferably you'd have a dynamically bound variable *finish* and setf it in the interrupt. your thread would be responsible to probe it in safe points
2019-09-02T08:53:28Z no-defun-allowed: Righteo.
2019-09-02T08:55:15Z no-defun-allowed: That should work fine, since I'm already using a kind of message passing scheme. The control thread sends a message down the connection and waits on a condition variable, then a handler thread takes the response and dispatches on it, eventually notifying the control thread.
2019-09-02T09:19:30Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: you could push such signals onto a queue and have the other thread process them serially, without interrupting them
2019-09-02T09:22:05Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah.
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2019-09-02T11:15:12Z thijso: I'm playing around with creating a DHT in lisp. I've searched google, and the only one I found was 8 years old (locutus: https://github.com/tritchey/locutus). Any others out there? An annoyance when searching google is that LISP in the networking world also stands for "Locator/ID Separation Protocol", so some results are completely irrelevant...
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2019-09-02T11:17:46Z no-defun-allowed: DHT -> distributed hash table?
2019-09-02T11:19:14Z thijso: no-defun-allowed: yep
2019-09-02T11:19:27Z thijso: specifically, the kademlia type
2019-09-02T11:19:53Z no-defun-allowed: I have a project that implements something like a DHT, but I'm missing any kind of routing that lets a client get data from a server it's not connected to directly.
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2019-09-02T11:22:10Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, I don't really understand the routing tricks involved in actual overlay networks, so I couldn't point you to any implementations of them, sorry.
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2019-09-02T11:29:19Z no-defun-allowed: What I have isn't a DHT at all. Dammit.
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2019-09-02T11:37:15Z no-defun-allowed: So, I'm reading the paper <http://www.scs.stanford.edu/~dm/home/papers/kpos.pdf>, and it doesn't describe how to go from node IDs to object IDs. Is the paper just about how to get to a node that has a close ID to the one you are looking for?
2019-09-02T11:37:41Z no-defun-allowed: All I read about that is "Participating computers each have a node ID in the 160-bit key space. ⟨key,value⟩ pairs are stored on nodes with IDs “close” to the key for some notion of closeness."
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2019-09-02T11:53:00Z no-defun-allowed: thijso: Thanks for pointing out the algorithm to me, it doesn't seem terribly hard to integrate with my work.
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2019-09-02T13:09:33Z thijso: no-defun-allowed: the idea is that the system is robust, you send STORE rpcs to the x closest nodes to the object ID
2019-09-02T13:09:59Z thijso: no-defun-allowed: so the data should be stored at multiple nodes
2019-09-02T13:10:44Z thijso: no-defun-allowed: then the FIND-VALUE rpc retrieves it, and any nodes that have the data will return it (instead of giving a list of closer nodes, which the ones that don't have it do)
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2019-09-02T13:45:36Z seok13: hello
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2019-09-02T13:47:15Z seok36: is there any library to validate json?
2019-09-02T13:47:19Z seok36: like json-p
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2019-09-02T13:59:56Z ck_: cl-json has a jsonp
2019-09-02T14:01:58Z ck_: hmm, or used to have -- at least the documentation on common-lisp.net contains it
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2019-09-02T14:13:52Z beach: I so wish people wouldn't describe what functionality they need in some Common Lisp software by referring to software they know in a different language.
2019-09-02T14:16:29Z seok36: ck_: I use yason but the documentation seems to be down
2019-09-02T14:17:13Z seok36: cl-json does seem to have jsonp Ill try that out
2019-09-02T14:18:58Z thijso: Can I redefine a defun in one package from withing another package?
2019-09-02T14:19:06Z thijso: *within
2019-09-02T14:19:24Z seok36: sure
2019-09-02T14:19:45Z beach: thijso: Functions don't belong to packages.
2019-09-02T14:20:02Z thijso: context: I have a system that does stuff using rpc calls over udp, but for testing I want to simulate a bunch of stuff, skipping the udp calls themselves.
2019-09-02T14:20:24Z beach: thijso: So as long as you use the right name, which is a symbol, you can redefine a function from anywhere.
2019-09-02T14:20:27Z thijso: beach: so how would I do that? Just setf the full function name to some other function name?
2019-09-02T14:21:23Z beach: thijso: So let me see if I understand...
2019-09-02T14:22:10Z awolven is now known as clothespin
2019-09-02T14:22:12Z beach: thijso: So you have some function F, and you are not happy with how it is defined.
2019-09-02T14:22:47Z beach: thijso: And, did I understand your last remark as your also having a function G, which is the right thing for F.
2019-09-02T14:23:18Z beach: And now you want to change the definition of F so that G is called instead?
2019-09-02T14:23:48Z beach: Because, if all you want is to redefine F, you can just do (defun F ...).
2019-09-02T14:24:02Z thijso: Actually, yes, but since function G is in my test env, I just now did (defun <package_name>::F () .. and it seems to work
2019-09-02T14:24:16Z thijso: Yeah, thanks
2019-09-02T14:24:21Z beach: Sure.
2019-09-02T14:26:27Z beach: Or you can do (setf (fdefinition 'F) (fdefinition 'G)) if you just want F to be the same function as G.
2019-09-02T14:26:49Z beach: Again, with F and G being the correct symbols for naming those functions.
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2019-09-02T14:34:20Z pjb: thijso: (defpackage "A" (:use) (:export "F")) (defpackage "B" (:use "CL")) (in-package "B") (defun a:f () 'foo)  (in-package "CL-USER") (a:f) #| --> b::foo |#
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2019-09-02T14:35:23Z pjb: thijso: but instead of redefining stuff, you could just use a different package with your own functions.
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2019-09-02T14:44:53Z thijso: Thanks, beach, pjb.
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2019-09-02T15:36:41Z Lycurgus: is there anything like a free version of allegro active objects, without the gui and windows systems stuff?
2019-09-02T15:40:05Z Lycurgus: (I will see a response in the public log if it comes much later)
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2019-09-02T16:05:28Z pjb: Lycurgus: Neither Google nor I know what allegro active objects are.
2019-09-02T16:06:02Z Lycurgus: well perhaps you don't
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2019-09-02T16:06:57Z Lycurgus: the first SE result is in reference to it's use with some atlassian product
2019-09-02T16:07:55Z Lycurgus: that may be someone else's active objects
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2019-09-02T16:15:43Z Lycurgus: nvm, equivocation on my part, realize I already have it and it's not an allegro product
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2019-09-02T16:17:41Z Lycurgus: and ty, pjp
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2019-09-02T16:31:11Z sahara3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BinD8qJjqM
2019-09-02T16:32:47Z beach: sahara3: Please don't give links without also describing what they refer to.
2019-09-02T16:32:59Z sahara3: ok
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2019-09-02T16:36:21Z beach: So are you planning to tell us?
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2019-09-02T16:40:36Z pjb: sahara3: don't confuse #lisp with #lispcafe
2019-09-02T16:43:19Z beach: pjb: So far, sahara3 has not uttered one single thing that was on topic.
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2019-09-02T17:28:36Z Lycurgus: s/pjp/pjb/ ; I stopped it as soon as I saw the cross. Dunno if anything lisp related came later.
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2019-09-02T19:42:02Z momozor: Hi, how do I load a system and invoke an external function at runtime?
2019-09-02T19:42:23Z momozor: What I am thinking is this..
2019-09-02T19:42:29Z momozor: (ql:quickload :system-blah)
2019-09-02T19:42:40Z momozor: (:system-blah:foo)
2019-09-02T19:43:53Z momozor: I can actually quickload a system at runtime, but cannot invoke the function via (system-blah:foo)
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2019-09-02T19:45:39Z pjb: momozor: that's because you are confusing systems with packages.  systems may contain files that when loaded will define 0, 1 or more packages.  Then names of the systems and of the packages are totally unrelated.
2019-09-02T19:46:12Z pjb: momozor: said otherwise, read the doc!
2019-09-02T19:46:44Z pjb: momozor: or, also, notice how quicklisp will diplay the name of the packages that are defined by a system while you are compiling it.
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2019-09-02T19:51:59Z momozor: pjb: alright. thanks.
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2019-09-02T20:46:20Z thijso: I feel like I'm missing something simple. I've been looking at docs too long maybe. So maybe someone here can shortcut my brain onto the right path. How can I convert hexadecimal into bitvectors (and vice versa)? I'm now looking at (format "~b" something) and then splitting that into characters to push on the bitvector somehow? That seems like the wrong way to go about it...
2019-09-02T20:48:08Z moldybits: convert a hexadecimal?  you mean the ascii characters?  or do you mean going from a hexadecimal string to a number to a bitvector of that number?
2019-09-02T20:50:10Z thijso: from a hex string to bitvector, so the second, I guess
2019-09-02T20:50:16Z pjb: The only way to store to bit-vectors is (setf (aref bv index) 0) or (setf (aref bv index) 1)
2019-09-02T20:51:12Z pjb: There are several ways to get a bit from an integer. There's logbitp, which returns an integer.  There's ldb which can return a bit.
2019-09-02T20:52:23Z pjb: So you can do: (let ((n (random 1000000))) (loop with bv = (make-array (integer-length n) :element-type 'bit) for i below (integer-length n) do (setf (aref bv i) (ldb (byte 1 i) n)) finally (return bv))) #| --> #*10101000111111110001 |#
2019-09-02T20:52:38Z moldybits: and parse-int for parsing the hex to a number
2019-09-02T20:52:43Z moldybits: parse-integer
2019-09-02T20:52:49Z pjb: Finally, you can convert from hexadecimal to integer with parse-integer, indeed.
2019-09-02T20:53:16Z pjb:  (let ((n (random 1000000)))  (let ((hex (format nil "~X" n))) (let ((n (parse-integer hex :radix 16.))) (loop with bv = (make-array (integer-length n) :element-type 'bit) for i below (integer-length n) do (setf (aref bv i) (ldb (byte 1 i) n)) finally (return bv))))) #| --> #*11101010001011011101 |#
2019-09-02T20:54:03Z moldybits: s/16./16/
2019-09-02T20:54:08Z pjb: Nope.
2019-09-02T20:54:12Z moldybits: no?
2019-09-02T20:54:18Z pjb: 16.  is sixteen.  16 depends on *read-base*.
2019-09-02T20:54:24Z moldybits: oh
2019-09-02T20:54:32Z thijso: Thanks, pjb.
2019-09-02T20:54:38Z moldybits: never seen that
2019-09-02T20:54:59Z pjb: Yes, it's a funny thing with CL, integers can be written in base ten by suffixing them with a dot.
2019-09-02T20:55:23Z moldybits: that's cool :p
2019-09-02T20:55:55Z thijso: while one would think that a dot signifies a float or something like that
2019-09-02T20:55:58Z thijso: interesting to know
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2019-09-02T20:56:29Z pjb: They call it a DECIMAL point.
2019-09-02T20:57:09Z thijso: Yeah, but usually it's used when it's *not* an integer
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2019-09-02T21:03:32Z thijso: Hmmm... that converts "d6" to #*01101011, and not #*10110110 as I would expect. The two digits are switched around.
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2019-09-02T21:13:40Z pjb: thijso: bit-vectors are indexed from 0 up from left to right.  Just like any vector
2019-09-02T21:15:21Z pjb: thijso: numbering of bits in integers is more logically performed from least significant bit up to most significant bit: n = Σ di * 2^i
2019-09-02T21:15:34Z pjb: thijso: so perhaps you should revise your expecations.
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2019-09-02T21:16:25Z pjb: thijso: (this is writing numbers with the most significant digit first that is idiotic;  in German, you SAY the units digit before the tens digit).
2019-09-02T21:18:38Z pjb: thijso: now, if you really insist on storing the most significant bit in the least index of the bit vector, you can always add a (- n i) to the indexing.
2019-09-02T21:18:52Z pjb: or rather (- (integer-length n) i)
2019-09-02T21:19:23Z thijso: yeah, I was looking into that, thanks for the pointer.
2019-09-02T21:20:03Z pjb: (- (integer-length n) i 1) actually if you (make-array (integer-length n) :element-type 'bit)
2019-09-02T21:20:35Z pjb: or perhaps (- (array-dimension bv 0) i 1).
2019-09-02T21:20:36Z saturn2: do you want the bits reversed or just the hex digits?
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2019-09-02T21:21:50Z thijso: I want the bit vector to line up with the hex digits, so that would mean "d6" would be converted as #*10110110
2019-09-02T21:21:55Z pjb: (let ((n #xd6)) (loop with bv = (make-array (integer-length n) :element-type 'bit) for i below (integer-length n) do (setf (aref bv (- (array-dimension bv 0) i 1)) (ldb (byte 1 i) n)) finally (return bv))) #| --> #*11010110 |#
2019-09-02T21:22:08Z pjb: and this is what you would get, not the silly #*10110110
2019-09-02T21:22:43Z pjb: If you want to decrease the index on hex digits, but increase it on bits, you will have a more complex formula.
2019-09-02T21:23:02Z pjb: You can always use random-permutation too…
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2019-09-02T21:26:18Z pjb: For example, you can do:  (let ((n #xd6))   (let ((hex (reverse (format nil "~X" n)))) (let ((n (parse-integer hex :radix 16.))) (loop with bv = (make-array (integer-length n) :element-type 'bit) for i below (integer-length n) do (setf (aref bv i) (ldb (byte 1 i) n)) finally (return bv))))) #| --> #*1011011 |#
2019-09-02T21:26:36Z pjb: but notice we have then 7 bits :-)
2019-09-02T21:27:20Z pjb: Or, you can do:  (let ((n #xd6))   (let ((hex (reverse (format nil "~X" n)))) (let ((n (parse-integer hex :radix 16.))) (loop with bv = (make-array (* 4 (ceiling (integer-length n) 4)) :initial-element 0 :element-type 'bit) for i below (integer-length n) do (setf (aref bv i) (ldb (byte 1 i) n)) finally (return bv))))) #| --> #*10110110 |#
2019-09-02T21:27:25Z thijso: Sorry, I had a typo in my stuff... of course d6 should be 1101 0110 and not 1011 0110
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2019-09-02T21:27:58Z pjb: Don't be sorry, you can ask any dumb thing. CL can provide.
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2019-09-02T21:29:09Z thijso: Hah! I see that. But I am sorry, because the reversal of 0110 is of course 0110... still 6. D (i.e. 13) is not 1011, its 1101
2019-09-02T21:29:53Z thijso: So it looked like I was asking for the weird complete reversal (but not really), while you already gave me the right one
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2019-09-02T21:47:25Z White_Flame: pjb: technically, it's a "radix point".  only in common use & vernacular is it a decimal point
2019-09-02T21:48:07Z White_Flame: and since CL doesn't have non-base10 radix fixed- or floating-point numbers, a radix point always implies decimal
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2019-09-02T23:23:42Z fengshaun: is it possible to compile a CL program statically like e.g. go static binaries?
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2019-09-02T23:23:57Z fengshaun: or like c with musl
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2019-09-02T23:27:34Z no-defun-allowed: You can use your implementation's image-dumping functionality to write out an image, but that would still have dynamic links to libc at least.
2019-09-02T23:27:47Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe ECL can make static programs.
2019-09-02T23:29:04Z fengshaun: thanks, I will check out ecl
2019-09-02T23:30:02Z pjb: Compilation is always a "statical" transformation.
2019-09-02T23:30:52Z pjb: But to make static libraries, yes ecl would be the go-to implementation.
2019-09-02T23:31:56Z pjb: Now if you just want an executable, almost all implementation can generate an executable image.  But not ecl.  Ecl can only link into an elf binary.  Which cannot be purely static, since it has to use libecl.so and libc.so
2019-09-02T23:32:07Z pjb: (but then, executable images too, so…)
2019-09-02T23:32:18Z pjb: Nowadays it's very hard to make a static binary…
2019-09-02T23:33:08Z fengshaun: so looks like I need to install the runtime separately regardless
2019-09-02T23:35:15Z White_Flame: python, bash, java, javascript, etc all get by without generally making an executable too
2019-09-02T23:35:29Z fengshaun: yea, I'm aware
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2019-09-02T23:49:30Z gabbiel: so is there really no flet/labels equivalent to methods?
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2019-09-02T23:54:07Z White_Flame: gabbiel: you could build on on top of gensym'd method names, so they'd only be locally accessed
2019-09-02T23:55:40Z White_Flame: generic functions are intended to be runtime resolvable, though, so there's not going to be any consideration for compile-time method selection per call site
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2019-09-02T23:59:35Z gabbiel: i dont understand your second message
2019-09-03T00:00:28Z gabbiel: flet/labels allows for binding of functions in lexical scope, which happens in the runtime
2019-09-03T00:00:45Z gabbiel: i dont see why methods couldn't be lexically bound too
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2019-09-03T00:08:19Z dlowe: to what end?
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2019-09-03T00:23:20Z Bike: there used to be a generic-flet operator, but it was removed because iirc nobody understood it.
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2019-09-03T00:32:28Z gabbiel: Bike: it proposed in the design process?
2019-09-03T00:32:59Z Bike: yeah, there was a committee issue and stuff
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2019-09-03T00:33:16Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss181_w.htm here
2019-09-03T00:34:01Z Bike: also with-added-methods
2019-09-03T00:34:08Z Bike: "We would either have to get the implementors to implement it or explainwhy we put this thing in the language that everyone refuses to implement."
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2019-09-03T00:39:52Z drmeister: I've got some code where I invoke MAKE-INSTANCE and it's returning NIL.  I'm not sure how that could be.
2019-09-03T00:39:54Z gabbiel: generic-flet and generic-labels are self describing, what did they mean that nobody understood them
2019-09-03T00:40:21Z Bike: well, what they're for. also whether it was dynamic or lexical.
2019-09-03T00:40:37Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/MHJNDuJr/
2019-09-03T00:40:58Z Bike: drmeister: broken method, i guess.
2019-09-03T00:41:07Z drmeister: There is an :after method on initialize-instance for this class and in there I put a print statement for the object.
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2019-09-03T00:41:20Z drmeister: I get:
2019-09-03T00:41:21Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/CSPNLvh9/
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2019-09-03T00:41:35Z drmeister: Bike: Which method should I look for?
2019-09-03T00:41:45Z Bike: any
2019-09-03T00:41:52Z Bike: on initialize-instance or allocate-instance or make-instance
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2019-09-03T00:41:59Z drmeister: I can make the instance directly and it works.
2019-09-03T00:42:02Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/O99BeibQ/
2019-09-03T00:42:25Z drmeister: It's a little harder to initialize :%view properly from the command line.
2019-09-03T00:43:03Z White_Flame: gabbiel: my 2nd message was about compile-time optimization, as many languages like C++ do.  Even though the declarations and usages would be in a single lexical scope, it would still leave resolution to runtime
2019-09-03T00:43:17Z gabbiel: Bike: flet is lexical, yes, so generic-flet should be lexical as well
2019-09-03T00:43:45Z Bike: and the methods?
2019-09-03T00:43:58Z Bike: i mean fundamentally what's the point of defining a generic function all at once? might as well just have a typecase body
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2019-09-03T00:46:03Z gabbiel: White_Flame: but what exactly did you mean, regarding generic-flet/labels, that it would inhibit compile time optimization?
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2019-09-03T00:46:50Z White_Flame: I don't know for what purpose you want this, so I brought up an assumptive scenario
2019-09-03T00:46:55Z gabbiel: Bike: I'd wager generic-flet/labels was for defining methods, since methods already imply generic functions
2019-09-03T00:47:05Z Bike: what?
2019-09-03T00:47:26Z Bike: you said that generic-flet is self describing but i really have doubts about that
2019-09-03T00:47:27Z White_Flame: if you build generic-flet on top of gensym-named standard defmethods, it woudl perform the same and not take advantage of any lexical stuff
2019-09-03T00:47:50Z White_Flame: whereas labels & flet, being contained with their usage, can do certain deeper optimizations
2019-09-03T00:48:25Z pjb: The problem is that method dispatching is not done lexically, but dynamically.
2019-09-03T00:49:45Z pjb: There would be no point of defining a method lexically, thus masking another method defined on the same classes, since calling the generic function could occur outside of the lexical scope, and would still have to dispatch to the outside method!
2019-09-03T00:50:24Z White_Flame: pjb: the intent would be not to leak the GF at all
2019-09-03T00:50:31Z pjb: At most, what you can do, is to bind methods dynamically, ie. temporarily.  You can do that with find-method, add-method and remove-method.
2019-09-03T00:50:38Z pjb: White_Flame: still.
2019-09-03T00:50:43Z Lycurgus: leak the GF
2019-09-03T00:50:59Z pjb: White_Flame: the point is that there's no point.  Just write a normal function.
2019-09-03T00:51:21Z White_Flame: I believe the point would be to use the class-based dispatch mechanism in local functions
2019-09-03T00:52:02Z Lycurgus: well the great thing is you get to make whatever point u want!
2019-09-03T00:52:35Z gabbiel: White_Flame: I see, your point is that impleneting generic-flet through gensyms would not allow for the optimizations that flet/labels have.
2019-09-03T00:52:39Z Lycurgus: which might be the reason the object system isn't more widely used
2019-09-03T00:52:42Z White_Flame: gabbiel: however, if you're planning on using EQL discriminators in your functions, instead of class-based, you could also try using a matcher library
2019-09-03T00:53:00Z White_Flame: for erlang-style matching branch clauses
2019-09-03T00:53:42Z gabbiel: Bike: maybe call it mflet or mlabels
2019-09-03T00:53:54Z Bike: i still don't understand what the point of this is.
2019-09-03T00:54:21Z Bike: i can kind of understand dynamically adding and removing methods, which is i think what with-added-methods was, but then there's not much point doing it as a special operator
2019-09-03T00:54:34Z Bike: and you're not actually binding any function names
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2019-09-03T01:00:31Z gabbiel: bike: the point is to think about what it would mean to have lexically bound methods
2019-09-03T01:01:10Z Bike: that wouldn't mesh at all with the entire rest of clos
2019-09-03T01:01:31Z pjb: exactly.
2019-09-03T01:03:13Z Bike: a generic function is an object with a state, such as what methods it has. to "lexically bind" one, you'd be making a new generic function and copying that state and also adding methods
2019-09-03T01:04:40Z White_Flame: for this to meaningfully work, it would probably want its methods to be statically defined to only teh source code clauses that are present in that scope?
2019-09-03T01:05:23Z White_Flame: like I said, imagine a set of LABELS functions that can use multimethod dispatch in their parameters
2019-09-03T01:06:16Z White_Flame: s/in/using/ :-P
2019-09-03T01:06:22Z gabbiel: so im really just restricted to typecasing and using flet?
2019-09-03T01:06:33Z Bike: yes. i don't understand what more you want.
2019-09-03T01:06:49Z Bike: you could give it a more method-like syntax but still make a normal function
2019-09-03T01:06:50Z pjb: White_Flame: for this to work, you would have to justify having a different dispatch between calls to the generic function inside the lexial scope vs. outside of it.
2019-09-03T01:07:06Z pjb: White_Flame: this is very hard to justify when you understand what an object is.
2019-09-03T01:07:25Z White_Flame: right, this would remove the "objectness" of the GF
2019-09-03T01:07:41Z White_Flame: but in exchange, expose parameter-based dispatch to local functions
2019-09-03T01:07:59Z pjb: Ah!  So this is what you want,  parameter based dispatch!
2019-09-03T01:08:10Z pjb: Or just pattern matching cases.
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2019-09-03T01:08:30Z White_Flame: I don't know if that's what gabbiel wants, because they never actually stated any intention, but that was my assumption, which I did specifically list multilpe times as a supposed rationale
2019-09-03T01:08:48Z Bike: yes, having an idea of what's actually wanted would help
2019-09-03T01:09:07Z pjb: White_Flame: it's probably better to have a macro implementing it independently from function calls.
2019-09-03T01:09:31Z White_Flame: pjb: which is what I said about constructing a gensym-named GF that's only locally known
2019-09-03T01:09:38Z pjb: Something like (dispatch-case (a b c) (((a integer) (b integer) (c string)) …)  (((a integer) (b string) (c string)) …) …)
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2019-09-03T01:14:27Z gabbiel: that macro seems nice, but are those flet like or labels like bindings?
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2019-09-03T02:21:05Z pjb: gabbiel: it doesn't matter, because the dispatching clause should be exclusive.
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2019-09-03T03:31:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-03T04:40:15Z beach: As a person reading some code written by a different person, how do you react when you see (DEFVAR <var>) and when you see (DEFPARAMETER <var> NIL)?
2019-09-03T04:41:55Z no-defun-allowed: Are you referring to those exact forms, or (def{var,parameter} <var>) against (def{var,parameter} <var> nil)?
2019-09-03T04:42:26Z White_Flame: (defparameter <var> nil) is correct, as it should be defining a parameter value
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2019-09-03T04:42:50Z White_Flame: defvar is optional, filled in either from config defaults, or established in thread-local bindings
2019-09-03T04:43:01Z White_Flame: *defvar's value is optional...
2019-09-03T04:43:11Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, as in both in the same codebase. I agree pretty much what White_Flame said.
2019-09-03T04:43:42Z White_Flame: in fact, a defvar initial value is often problematic, as it makes it harder to restart the code without cycling the image
2019-09-03T04:43:53Z White_Flame: if it's a stateful thing, which it often is
2019-09-03T04:44:08Z no-defun-allowed: (defvar <var>) would be used if the variable changes some behaviour which has a default that isn't well expressed as a variable, such as if it was the same as another variable by default.
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2019-09-03T04:47:21Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Those exact forms.
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2019-09-03T04:48:56Z beach: White_Flame: So, like me, you think that the initial value of the DEFPARAMETER form is going to be used.
2019-09-03T04:48:57Z beach: ?
2019-09-03T04:49:10Z White_Flame: that's what defparameter literally is for
2019-09-03T04:49:22Z White_Flame: to provide a paramater value from the source code into the running program
2019-09-03T04:49:31Z White_Flame: that can be changed at the source code level
2019-09-03T04:49:33Z beach: Thank you.
2019-09-03T04:49:35Z White_Flame: and reloaded to invoke
2019-09-03T04:50:25Z beach: So for a variable that is always going to have a thread local binding for the code to work properly, DEFVAR with no initial value is the right thing.
2019-09-03T04:50:35Z White_Flame: I would consider setf'ing a defparameter to be something wrong
2019-09-03T04:50:53Z beach: sort of...
2019-09-03T04:51:05Z beach: SETF-ing it before it is used would be wrong.
2019-09-03T04:51:12Z White_Flame: beach: DEFVAR also should have no initial value if init code is going to set it up, and things shouldn't run until that init finishes
2019-09-03T04:51:53Z beach: It all sounds very reasonable, and I agree.
2019-09-03T04:53:51Z beach: For what it's worth, (LET (<var>) ... ) sends the same signal to me as (DEFVAR <var>) does, i.e. that the variable is going to be assigned to/bound before being used.
2019-09-03T04:54:08Z beach: The semantics are different, of course.
2019-09-03T04:54:29Z White_Flame: yeah, though I presume that's a rare case in idiomatic lisp
2019-09-03T04:55:14Z beach: Sure.  But I have seen it in macro expansions.
2019-09-03T04:55:34Z White_Flame: ah, yeah that would make sense
2019-09-03T04:56:14Z beach: More importantly, I don't want to see (LET (<var>) .. (push ... <var>))
2019-09-03T04:56:15Z beach:  
2019-09-03T04:57:28Z White_Flame: right, assumption of teh implicit NIL, as opposed to (LET ((var NIL) ..) ..)
2019-09-03T04:57:57Z beach: Two pieces of information clash here.  (LET (<var>) says "will be assigned before it is used, and (PUSH ... <var>) uses it before it is assigned to.
2019-09-03T04:58:08Z beach: Exactly.
2019-09-03T04:59:16Z beach replaces some (DEFPARAMETER <var> NIL) by (DEFVAR <var>) in some Cleavir code. 
2019-09-03T05:04:13Z beach: Using `git blame', I can confirm my suspicion that I myself was the author of that DEFPARAMETER form half a decade or so ago.
2019-09-03T05:04:30Z White_Flame: heh
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2019-09-03T05:06:20Z beach: Maybe it is time for me to write a separate style guide, as opposed to having a chapter in each document I write.
2019-09-03T05:08:14Z beach: Such a style guide would contain, for each recommendation, a discussion of the reason for it, references to other documents like the Common Lisp HyperSpec, the LUV slides, etc., and also references to code bodies respecting or violating the recommendation.
2019-09-03T05:08:46Z beach: ... and alternatives, as in the slot-naming convention.
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2019-09-03T05:16:23Z beach: Another reason for writing such a style guide is that I often repeat the same remarks whenever an inexperienced person comes here and exposes inexperienced-person code for #lisp participants to remark on.  I could even teach one of our bots to show links to different sections as a result of some keyword, like <bot>: please tell <inexperienced-person> about slot-naming.
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2019-09-03T05:28:48Z beach: Actually, I like the idea of a separate style guide.  I haven't done it in the past, because some of my recommendations are not universally required, so they seemed to have no place in a separate style guide.  But if each recommendation has alternatives, and a discussion related to the reason for its existence, references to people and code, etc., then such recommendations could very well fit into a separate style guide.
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2019-09-03T05:49:46Z remexre: https://foundry.remexre.xyz/screenshots/63a335a5e5f40172247de4051c383dd24a7ecf27.png
2019-09-03T05:49:48Z remexre: what's going on here?
2019-09-03T05:50:38Z remexre: I don't get how the fourth box can be NULL KEEP-GOING
2019-09-03T05:50:50Z remexre: or I guess, why the second case of the if isn't being taken
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2019-09-03T05:52:16Z no-defun-allowed: Can we have a backtrace, and/or a paste of the relevant code? It's a bit hard to tell in the screenshot.
2019-09-03T05:53:23Z remexre: er yeah, sorry, I'm doing all this in slimv
2019-09-03T05:54:08Z remexre: the error that the 3rd arg to UNIFY can't be nil (which the (unless subst (return-from unify-impl)) should handle?)
2019-09-03T05:54:51Z no-defun-allowed: There are calls to UNIFY before your checks.
2019-09-03T05:55:16Z remexre: yeah, but the value doesn't become nil until after the first UNIFY in the second set of calls
2019-09-03T05:55:25Z remexre: https://p.acm.umn.edu/Wz1sKngzsAM= <- paste of the code in the screenie
2019-09-03T05:56:20Z remexre: it's more visible there, the !! NULL KEEP-GOING line comes right before (unless ... (return-from ...))
2019-09-03T05:56:42Z remexre: which should guard against the second (unify ...) call's 3rd arg being nil
2019-09-03T05:57:35Z remexre: but the @3 line being printed implies the (return-from ...) wasn't taken?
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2019-09-03T13:46:33Z d4ryus: hi, when I try to run a dumped image (dumped via asdf:make) on another machine it does not work because it tries to load asdf. I also get a strange warning: https://pastebin.com/7pCBuUSg
2019-09-03T13:46:34Z Xach: my first loop conformance bug with sicl loop!
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2019-09-03T13:47:31Z d4ryus: The asdf version installed in ~/common-lisp/asdf/ is 3.3.3.3, sbcl version is 1.5.6.29-12fd1b3bc . Anyone a idea or any leads what i did wrong?
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2019-09-03T13:49:52Z Xach does not know, sorry
2019-09-03T13:50:20Z Xach: mfiano: http://report.quicklisp.org/2019-09-03/failure-report/umbra.html#umbra
2019-09-03T13:50:23Z Inline: d4ryus: look in your query window, i pm'ed you
2019-09-03T13:50:54Z Xach: Inline: why private? I'm curious about it also.
2019-09-03T13:54:23Z beach: Xach: YAY!
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2019-09-03T13:55:18Z beach: Xach: What was the conformance bug you detected?
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2019-09-03T14:00:13Z Inline: lol Xach
2019-09-03T14:00:32Z Inline: Xach: http://dpaste.com/3V9BKEZ, ok there you have it
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2019-09-03T14:04:16Z thijso: https://www.cliki.net/cffi-udp contains a link to a 'homepage', but that gives a server not found error. Google doesn't really provide anything either. Has cffi-udp just vanished? I've found a link to a git repo, but that's on the same server as the homepage, so no-go...
2019-09-03T14:04:46Z PuercoPop: Is there a way to 'right align' the output of a format directive? Or something along the lines of insert as many spaces to move to column 70. The ~T directive seems to be almost what I want?
2019-09-03T14:05:04Z pjb: PuercoPop: use ~D instead of ~A
2019-09-03T14:05:40Z pjb: well, it's not conforming…
2019-09-03T14:05:46Z pjb: (for non numbers).
2019-09-03T14:06:42Z pjb: (let ((text "Hello") (width 20)) (format nil "~VA~A" (- width (length text)) "" text)) #| --> "               Hello" |#
2019-09-03T14:07:08Z pjb: (let ((text "Hello") (width 20)) (format nil "~V@{ ~}~A" (- width (length text)) text)) #| --> "               Hello" |#
2019-09-03T14:10:18Z PuercoPop: pjb: I was hoping to not have to compute the width myself. Although that would do
2019-09-03T14:10:22Z PuercoPop: thanks
2019-09-03T14:13:57Z pjb: PuercoPop: you can write a format
2019-09-03T14:15:11Z pjb: slash function.
2019-09-03T14:15:26Z pjb: (format nil "~20/right-align/" "foo")
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2019-09-03T14:17:20Z antepod: Hey, people.  I have a question about expressions in argument lists and macros.
2019-09-03T14:17:24Z pjb: (defun right-align (stream object colon at &rest args) (let ((text (format nil "~A" object)) (width (or (first args) 8)))  (format stream "~V@{ ~}~A" (- width (length text)) text)))
2019-09-03T14:17:26Z pjb: (format nil "~20/right-align/" "foo")(format nil "~20/right-align/" "foo") #| --> "                 foo" |#
2019-09-03T14:17:43Z pjb: well, defun cl-user::right-align
2019-09-03T14:18:09Z pjb: or qualify it in ~/my-formatters:right-align/
2019-09-03T14:18:55Z antepod: Is it possible- be it through macros, functions or otherwise- to have an expression you could put into a &key argument list so that it evaluates to , say, :color 'red for one condition, and a blank space for another?
2019-09-03T14:19:49Z pjb: antepod: nope.
2019-09-03T14:20:03Z pjb: antepod: lisp sources are not text. You cannot put "blank spaces" there.
2019-09-03T14:20:20Z pjb: (apply (function foo) (when one-condition (list :color 'red)))
2019-09-03T14:22:18Z antepod: pjb: 'blank spaces' was a bit informal, I admit.
2019-09-03T14:23:13Z antepod: pjb: So the only way is to wrap the whole expression, function and all?  Pity;  it would be interesting if there was a way for a language to 'reach back' up the chain, but I'm not sure what it would look like.
2019-09-03T14:23:22Z antepod: Thanks for the help, anyway.
2019-09-03T14:23:39Z pjb: antepod: It depend on when the one-condition is known.
2019-09-03T14:23:47Z pjb: antepod: this solution is when it's known at run-time.
2019-09-03T14:24:08Z pjb: antepod: if you know it at compilation-time, then you can use a macro, or even a reader-macro.
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2019-09-03T14:25:18Z Inline: is there a butlet macro ?
2019-09-03T14:25:20Z Inline: lol
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2019-09-03T14:25:54Z pjb: (defmacro moo () `(foo ,@(when one-condition '(:color 'red)))) or (foo . #+#.(cl:if cl-user:one-condition '(:and) '(:or)) '(:color 'red) '())
2019-09-03T14:28:07Z pjb: antepod: but the point is to understand that &key arguments are not syntax, but data.
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2019-09-03T14:29:20Z pjb: (defun foo (&key (color 'red) (frequency 440)) (list color frequency))   (loop repeat 4 collect (foo (if (zerop (random 2)) :color :frequency) 'something)) #| --> ((something 440) (something 440) (red something) (red something)) |#
2019-09-03T14:31:05Z antepod: Right.  I understand the function examples, though some of the macro syntactic sugar's still beyond me.  Guess I've got more reading to do
2019-09-03T14:31:35Z pjb: (defmacro moo () (list* 'foo (when one-condition '(:color 'red)))) (moo)
2019-09-03T14:33:07Z antepod: Yep.  It's a pity you can't have something like
2019-09-03T14:33:34Z antepod: (defmacro moo () `,@(:color 'red))   (foo (moo))
2019-09-03T14:33:37Z antepod: though.
2019-09-03T14:34:45Z antepod: But of course, `,@(:color 'red) isn't valid, because you can't 'return' two atoms.
2019-09-03T14:35:19Z antepod: Unless you're using 'values', but that defeats the whole point of nicety.
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2019-09-03T14:38:12Z pjb: antepod: this is what prevents sexp-injections in lisp!
2019-09-03T14:39:46Z pjb: antepod: of course, it's very sad, because since lisp has been correctly designed from the start, (macros since 1964!) you cannot write PhD dissertations anymore on how to avoid code injection in lisp.  But don't worry, you can still get a PhD disserting about sql-injections…
2019-09-03T14:40:33Z pjb: So, who wants to write a time travel debugger for lisp?  Reactime: A time travel debugger for React <https://github.com/oslabs-beta/reactime>
2019-09-03T14:40:42Z pjb: Java has one, React has one…
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2019-09-03T14:44:40Z antepod: pjb:   Huh.  I guess I am asking to inject-attack my own code as a feature.  Strange.
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2019-09-03T14:47:37Z antepod: pjb:  though code injection's still perfectly possible in lisp...  Just read and evaluate user input, expecting the user to supply a "string".  I'm sure some newbie, somewhere, has done it.  Hell, I think there's a chapter in practical common lisp whose code would allow for that sort of attack.
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2019-09-03T14:48:16Z pjb: antepod: yes, but it's controlled. You need to do it explicitely.
2019-09-03T14:48:53Z edgar-rft: what I find more frightenining is that according to pjb macros can expand into old cruft from 1964
2019-09-03T14:48:55Z pjb: antepod: since there are no parentheses in lisp code, you cannot close a parenthesis, and re-open one to make a new expression like in sql…
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2019-09-03T14:49:15Z pjb: edgar-rft: you can run programs from 1960 on CL !
2019-09-03T14:49:31Z pjb: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
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2019-09-03T14:52:25Z antepod: pjb:  Yes, I suppose having two layers of logic (text I/O, AST internals) helps.  But isn't the problem with SQL injection that the system's essentially eval'ing whatever you give it?
2019-09-03T14:52:58Z pjb: antepod: no, it comes from the textual concatenation to build expressions.
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2019-09-03T15:08:56Z seok: Hello, anybody recognise this data format? ((36 52192 0 1 8 0 0 0 "system.namespaces") NIL)
2019-09-03T15:09:13Z seok: I was expecting it to be a BSON but I cannot decode it
2019-09-03T15:09:23Z schweers: I have a piece of software which /should/ use only a pretty small amount of memory, yet uses quite a lot.  The process gets a huge heap, but shouldn’t use much of it at this stage.  Is there a good way to find out where this memory is being used?  I’m using sbcl, but it my code should also work on ccl.
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2019-09-03T15:12:51Z mfiano: Xach: (hopefully) pushed a fix just guessing at the error message.
2019-09-03T15:15:47Z pjb: seok: it looks like an oid followed by a string. This could come from decoding some ASN.1
2019-09-03T15:16:27Z pjb: schweers: you can start with (room t). On some implementation it reports the memory used by type of object, which is a good hint.
2019-09-03T15:17:32Z schweers: Yeah, I know about that, and I’m going to try it, but I don’t assume that it’s going to help much.  Now that I’ve asked the question, I’m wondering if the profiler might help.
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2019-09-03T15:34:34Z semz: Has there been work on using conditions/restarts to do proper OOM handling?
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2019-09-03T15:44:09Z pjb: semz: there was a blog, but it disappeared: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/group$3Acomp.lang.lisp$20out$20of$20memory$20condition/comp.lang.lisp/NL393lKKpBY/2eBe2LPNHq8J
2019-09-03T15:46:10Z pjb: Perhaps it's time to realize that blogs are dumb, and published scientific paper are more perennial?
2019-09-03T15:47:24Z semz: thankfully archive.org has it, http://web.archive.org/web/20091209032608/http://blo.udoidio.info/2008/10/out-of-memory-sad-case.html
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2019-09-03T15:49:08Z pjb: Of course, 11 years later, implementations have changed…  You'd have to try them all again.
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2019-09-03T15:49:50Z semz: I unfortunately doubt that the situation on Linux has changed, Unix folks seem to like the (batshit insane) overcommitting situation.
2019-09-03T15:50:08Z semz: But thanks pjb, even if it turns out to be a purely academic exercise this pointer is helpful.
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2019-09-03T16:29:26Z dim: well if you want to push the SBCL garbage collection you can play with pgloader; bonus point if you can fix the situation...
2019-09-03T16:30:23Z dim: I continue receiving bug reports from users who are experiencing the heap exhausted, game over message and don't know what to do about it ; where CCL usually is just fine, just slower... well much slower
2019-09-03T16:32:27Z Xach: mfiano: thanks
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2019-09-03T17:31:54Z aeth: The most surprising thing about that article is how small those (2008) numbers are in just 11 years. "out of a total of 500 MB of RAM" for instance. That's Rasperry Pi 1 (2012) levels, while I'd assume today most people are using 8-64 GB. Even back then, I think 1-4 GB would've been more normal? Iirc, I had 8 GB in 2010.
2019-09-03T17:32:20Z aeth: As for Linux and memory, HN had "The Linux kernel's inability to gracefully handle low memory pressure" posted recently. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20620545
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2019-09-03T17:53:31Z aeth: It's weird that SBCL's limit is only 1 GB by default. Is whatever it's set at preserved when doing s-l-a-d? Because if it was a desktop application (like a web browser), then sb-ext:dynamic-space-size should depend on the user's machine, not the build machine.
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2019-09-03T18:31:08Z pjb: aeth: 32-bit vs. 64-bit.
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2019-09-04T01:22:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: hi
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2019-09-04T03:43:01Z stylewarning: Does anybody have any fast & efficient (TM) libraries for memory mapped files? Or do people do it the good ol fashioned way
2019-09-04T03:43:45Z stylewarning: s/have/recommend or know to exist/
2019-09-04T03:46:03Z no-defun-allowed: stylewarning: https://shinmera.github.io/mmap/
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2019-09-04T03:48:23Z stylewarning: I need to learn more about mmap, and how to read truly huge files that don't fit in RAM
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2019-09-04T04:50:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: stylewarning: I don't know how "fast and efficient" they are, but manardb and (I think) the viace graph database both use mmapped files, so perhaps they'd be worth looking at?
2019-09-04T04:51:22Z stylewarning: I can check them out
2019-09-04T04:52:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: One quirk I've found is that a lot of libraries use mremap, which often isn't available on non-Linux unices
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2019-09-04T05:04:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-04T06:19:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach
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2019-09-04T07:09:03Z devon: Is there a nicer way to destructure a sequence other than coercing it to a list?
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2019-09-04T07:14:15Z devon: like (destructuring-bind (a b c ...) (coerce (nth-value 1 (cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings # #)) 'list) ...)
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2019-09-04T07:28:47Z tourjin: in interpreter i starts with * sign prompt but it change to some debug level or something prompting 0[4] . how can I go back to my original level with * sign prompt?
2019-09-04T07:29:19Z beach: What implementation is this?
2019-09-04T07:29:29Z tourjin: sbcl
2019-09-04T07:29:47Z beach: You should have a list of restarts.
2019-09-04T07:29:57Z beach: One restart is probably "return to top level"
2019-09-04T07:30:15Z beach: But you should not be using SBCL from the command line like that.
2019-09-04T07:30:25Z beach: It is best to use it through SLIME.
2019-09-04T07:30:50Z beach: And, it is not an interpreter, by the way.  SBCL compiles forms on the fly.
2019-09-04T07:31:18Z tourjin: i don't have it for now. anyway I i can't go back "return to top level".
2019-09-04T07:32:19Z tourjin: message says restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name):
2019-09-04T07:32:42Z beach: So invoke it by number.
2019-09-04T07:32:51Z tourjin: i can't find how I imply on it.
2019-09-04T07:33:21Z beach: Do you have a restart ABORT?
2019-09-04T07:33:49Z tourjin: 0: [ABORT] Reduce debugger level (to debug level 8).
2019-09-04T07:33:59Z tourjin:  8:         Exit debugger, returning to top level.
2019-09-04T07:34:07Z beach: There you go.
2019-09-04T07:34:15Z beach: Type the number of that restart.
2019-09-04T07:34:33Z tourjin: oh... just number.
2019-09-04T07:34:46Z tourjin: is that it? :-)
2019-09-04T07:34:56Z tourjin: thanks
2019-09-04T07:35:26Z beach: Sure.
2019-09-04T07:36:58Z tourjin: slime is for emacs . i think I should try vlime.
2019-09-04T07:37:17Z beach: I think you should use Emacs.
2019-09-04T07:38:40Z tourjin: everyone says that but I've never used it.
2019-09-04T07:38:54Z beach: I am sorry to hear that.
2019-09-04T07:40:39Z tourjin: i've only used vim. with not so good laptop in limited resorces. so i don't have in mind trying emacs yet.
2019-09-04T07:41:35Z no-defun-allowed: Depends on your definition of "limited resources", but Emacs runs about the same on my dinky 2006 laptop as it does my desktop.
2019-09-04T07:42:30Z no-defun-allowed: Though, I've heard SLIMV is comparable to SLIME, the only difference being the former runs on an inferior editor.
2019-09-04T07:42:58Z tourjin: generally it's said emacs is a lot heavier compared to vim. is'nt it?
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2019-09-04T07:43:38Z ck_: you can't expect to use them in the same way, but on any regular machine this side of the turn of the century, it shouldn't really matter
2019-09-04T07:45:03Z beach: tourjin: That sounds like a pitiful excuse to avoid learning a better tool.
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2019-09-04T07:49:21Z tourjin: beach yes. u can say that. honestly i'm thinking i would like to go with vim . it was first and last editor i've used since i met linux.
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2019-09-04T07:50:55Z schweers: tourjin: back when I tried Emacs (coming from vim) I was surprised to see that Emacs could scroll syntax highlighted LaTeX code smoothly, while (g)vim could not.
2019-09-04T07:51:07Z schweers: Also, if you’re coming from vim, you might like spacemacs.
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2019-09-04T07:56:03Z aeth: Emacs is heavier when it does more, i.e. run graphically instead of the terminal... and heavily customized
2019-09-04T08:02:57Z tourjin: thanks for every suggestions u gave me guys.
2019-09-04T08:07:59Z beach: tourjin: May I suggest you turn on the equivalent in vim of Emacs abbrev-mode, so that you can define "u" to expand to "you" automatically.
2019-09-04T08:09:44Z beach: Though perhaps you are not using the IRC mode of vim, so you can't turn on abbrevs.
2019-09-04T08:10:29Z tourjin: i'm using windows10 wsl
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2019-09-04T08:11:26Z schweers: There is a windows port of both gvim and emacs, I suggest you use those, they work fairly decently.
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2019-09-04T08:14:10Z tourjin: u suggest me try vim and emacs compare? interesting. but i'm at library now. i don't have good wifi connections. i don't have them installed for now. i'll give it a try later. thanks.
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2019-09-04T08:14:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: tourjin: when I started using Common Lisp, I used slimv exclusively, and it works pretty well
2019-09-04T08:15:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I eventually switched to emacs when I realized I could still have my nice vim-style modal editing, but slimv is perfectly fine if you don't want to learn a new language and a new editor at the same time.
2019-09-04T08:15:21Z tourjin: fiddlerwoaroof slimv and vlime which is better for begginers?
2019-09-04T08:15:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've never used vlime
2019-09-04T08:16:02Z tourjin: ok ur recommadation is slimv. thanks.
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2019-09-04T08:50:07Z thijso: How do I go about debugging the error message 'Component "x" not found.'? I _think_ it's an ASDF error, but I'm stumped why I get it. The scenario is compiling stuff under EQL-Android. The thing is, I've tried bordeax-threads and sha1 and both compile without problems, but usocket for some reason ends up with that error message. They're all installed via quicklisp, so I'm not seeing why usocket fails, while
2019-09-04T08:50:13Z thijso: the others don't. Any debugging strings I can try to dump in the process to see where it goes wrong?
2019-09-04T08:50:54Z thijso: I think it's ASDF btw, because if I turn on (setf *break-on-signals* 'error) I get the message: Filesystem error with pathname "/opt/android-64/ecl/ecl-android-host/lib/ecl-16.1.3/.cl-source-registry.cache"
2019-09-04T08:51:03Z thijso: I think that's ASDF trying to find it...
2019-09-04T08:51:33Z thijso: And indeed, that file is not there.
2019-09-04T08:51:47Z thijso: If this is a question for a different channel, I'm sorry, btw.
2019-09-04T08:53:05Z thijso: That cache file isn't there, but when I CONTINUE I get a different location, etcetc. It's asdf going through all it's locations I think?
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2019-09-04T10:26:47Z thijso: Hhmmm... It's looking like the line '(defparameter *version* #.(asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :usocket)) .. ' is causing the problems. This is in usocket.lisp itself. Normally that would not be a problem I assume, but in this case it's messing up the compilation.
2019-09-04T10:27:21Z thijso: because at that point the component 'usocket' is not yet defined?
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2019-09-04T11:10:56Z Cymew: I have no idea what EQL-Android is, but what did you type, and what was the error message you got?
2019-09-04T11:14:24Z thijso: EQL5-Android: https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5-Android , it's a port of EQL5 to the Android platform. EQL5 is Embedded Qt Lisp (Qt5 binding embedded in ECL, embeddable in Qt)
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2019-09-04T11:15:36Z thijso: Cymew: I followed the build instructions in an EQL5-Android example, adapted to my own stuff, where I want to use usocket. Anyway, looks like the issue is with asdf searching for component usocket within usocket itself, and in the build system, that doesn't work.
2019-09-04T11:16:25Z thijso: I've managed to work around it by changing the usocket code (1 line). Now I run into other issues, namely, it looks like sb-bsd-sockets isn't defined in the ECL version of EQL5-Android (as I know it's there in regular ECL).
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2019-09-04T11:29:23Z Cymew: sb-bsd-sockets is, AFAIK,  sbcl specific thing.
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2019-09-04T11:31:14Z Cymew: I see no mention of asdf on the EQL-Android gitlb README.
2019-09-04T11:31:32Z Cymew: Are you making it harder on yourself by freestyling?
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2019-09-04T11:33:06Z Cymew: BTW that sentence about embedding is someone having way to much fun with wordplay, actually obfuscating the matter at hand.
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2019-09-04T11:55:04Z thijso: Cymew: yeah, sb-bsd-sockets is sbcl originally, but it's included in ECL. Nearly a verbatim copy of the sbcl code. It's socket.lisp file says: (require 'sb-bsd-sockets) and that's it. The implementation is in sb-bsd-sockets.lisp in the same directory.
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2019-09-04T11:56:57Z thijso: Cymew: what do you mean with 'freestyling'? I'm trying to adapt one of the examples in EQL5-android (the 'my' one, which I succesfully built and tested on my android phone) so that I can use it for my own app. But I want to use a couple of other quicklisp libs, including usocket. That's giving me problems.
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2019-09-04T11:59:17Z thijso: I'm thinking I'm running into the limitations regarding this comment in the README: The following will first collect (recursively) all file names and save them in
2019-09-04T11:59:22Z thijso: `files.txt`. For details of this **hack** see `make-ASDF.lisp`.
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2019-09-04T12:08:41Z thijso: Right. It looks like it's as simple as a (require :sb-bsd-sockets) in the make.lisp file used to build the system...
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2019-09-04T12:09:12Z thijso: As, yes, the sb-bsd-sockets.fas file is there, it's just not loaded by default during the build phase. Something like that, anyway.
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2019-09-04T12:33:08Z Baggers: does adjust-array copy the contents in the case where it returns a new array?
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2019-09-04T12:41:38Z shka_: Baggers: yes
2019-09-04T12:41:52Z shka_: it is specified in the hyperspec
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2019-09-04T12:46:25Z Baggers: shka_: thank you. I was reading that page but clearly not very well.
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2019-09-04T12:48:27Z shka_: If initial-contents is supplied, it is treated as for make-array. In this case none of the original contents of array appears in the resulting array.
2019-09-04T12:48:32Z shka_: for reference
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2019-09-04T12:49:49Z Baggers: shka_: thanks again. Yeah it was so explicit about that and displacing that I started doubting the behaviour in the :initial-contents nil case
2019-09-04T12:50:32Z shka_: yeah, i was scratching my head back few months ago
2019-09-04T12:50:37Z shka_: that's why i still remember this
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2019-09-04T12:52:52Z Baggers: hehe nice
2019-09-04T12:54:02Z Cymew: thijso: So sb-bsd-sockets is incorporated in ecl, that I did not know.
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2019-09-04T12:55:21Z Cymew: thijso: 'freestyling' as in building eql-android your own way, but I might have misunderstood what it is you're doing, as I've never used eql-android.
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2019-09-04T12:57:16Z vms14: now you're talking about sockets, does usocket provide local sockets?
2019-09-04T12:57:50Z vms14: sb-bsd-sockets does, with sb-bsd-sockets:local-socket
2019-09-04T12:58:08Z vms14: but I saw nothing at the documentation of usocket for local sockets
2019-09-04T12:58:19Z Shinmera: sb-bsd-sockets is in sbcl, ecl, clasp, and mkcl.
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2019-09-04T13:16:39Z Cymew: Look at that.
2019-09-04T13:16:59Z Cymew: I only use sbcl and ccl these days, so I had missed that.
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2019-09-04T13:59:09Z Baggers: shka_: I got a message elsewhere that adjust-array doesnt guarentee element copying in the cases where a new array is returned. I need to look back into this but apparently (alexandria:copy-array array :adjustable t) should help
2019-09-04T13:59:50Z shka_: oh
2019-09-04T14:00:22Z thijso: vms14: usocket doesn't, I think
2019-09-04T14:01:16Z shka_: If only new-dimensions and an initial-element argument are supplied, those elements of array that are still in bounds appear in the resulting array.
2019-09-04T14:01:26Z shka_: Baggers: this depends i guess
2019-09-04T14:01:35Z shka_: but above seems to be clear to me
2019-09-04T14:02:28Z Baggers: yeah same. I'm back to being uncertain though :D
2019-09-04T14:03:25Z shka_: that's because there is a lot of option combinations like displaced arrays
2019-09-04T14:03:34Z shka_: but base case works
2019-09-04T14:03:52Z Baggers: cool
2019-09-04T14:03:53Z shka_: what if :adjustable t though…
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2019-09-04T14:14:34Z Baggers: shka_: in copy-array?
2019-09-04T14:14:50Z shka_: in adjust-array
2019-09-04T14:15:47Z Baggers: adjust-array doesnt have an arg named adjustable. The source array would have to have that set though
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2019-09-04T14:21:01Z shka_: oh, ok
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2019-09-04T14:29:13Z pjb: If adjust-array is applied to an array that is actually adjustable, the array returned is identical to array. If the array returned by adjust-array is distinct from array, then the argument array is unchanged.
2019-09-04T14:29:21Z pjb: Baggers: not necessarily.
2019-09-04T14:30:20Z pjb: note that it is possible that (not (adjustable-array-p (make-array size :adjustable t)))
2019-09-04T14:30:32Z pjb: or that  (adjustable-array-p (make-array size :adjustable nil))
2019-09-04T14:30:37Z pjb: It's implementation dependent.
2019-09-04T14:30:59Z pjb: If adjustable is non-nil, the array is expressly adjustable (and so actually adjustable); otherwise, the array is not expressly adjustable (and it is implementation-dependent whether the array is actually adjustable).
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2019-09-04T14:31:34Z pjb: Well, it seems I'm wrong.
2019-09-04T14:31:46Z pjb:  (adjustable-array-p (make-array size :adjustable t)) must be true.
2019-09-04T14:32:02Z pjb: It may be an inconsistency in the clhs…
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2019-09-04T14:32:19Z Bike: what's the inconsistency?
2019-09-04T14:33:22Z pjb: Ah, no. It was in my mind. I read a <=> when it's a => in make-array.  :adjustable t => expressly adjustable => actually adjustable.
2019-09-04T14:33:46Z Bike: arrays are pretty confusing.
2019-09-04T14:33:53Z pjb: but :adjustable nil & actually adjustable is possible.
2019-09-04T14:34:33Z pjb: So an implementation can have only adjustable arrays, but cannot have only not-adjustable arrays.
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2019-09-04T16:49:32Z DrDuck: how can i read two numbers in lisp
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2019-09-04T16:49:38Z DrDuck: and assign them to variables
2019-09-04T16:50:15Z DrDuck: (setq a (read *standard-input* nil)) (setq b (read *standard-input* nil) ) ?
2019-09-04T16:50:20Z DrDuck: or is there another way
2019-09-04T16:52:47Z pjb: have you defined the variables a and b?
2019-09-04T16:53:14Z DrDuck: no i will define them in the setq i guess
2019-09-04T16:53:53Z pjb: (let ((a (progn (write-line "Please, enter an number: " *query-io*) (finish-output *query-io*) (read *query-io*))) (b (progn (write-line "Please, enter an number: " *query-io*) (finish-output *query-io*) (read *query-io*)))) (format t "~&Their sum is : ~A~%" (+ a b)))
2019-09-04T16:54:30Z pjb: DrDuck: nope, setq doesn't define number. If you assign to an inexistant variable, you get nasal dragons, and missiles sent to the general direction of your home.
2019-09-04T16:54:57Z pjb: s/define number/define variables/
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2019-09-04T19:08:53Z flip214: pjb: LET could do both things at the same time, in theory, right? So a LET* might be safer... A not-so-smart compiler might parallize that onto two cores ;)
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2019-09-04T19:20:02Z sjl_: LET has to evaluate the forms in order according to the spec
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2019-09-04T19:20:20Z sjl_: only the binding is in parallel
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2019-09-04T19:26:09Z flip214: ah yes, right. Sorry about the noise!
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2019-09-04T20:26:44Z Ober: pwd
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2019-09-04T21:00:26Z Oladon_wfh: #lisp
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2019-09-04T21:16:21Z LdBeth: Good afternoon
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2019-09-04T21:20:29Z vms14: ebrasca: you made mezzano right?
2019-09-04T21:22:08Z vms14: can you say you'd made it without lisp, with other languages?
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2019-09-04T21:22:30Z vms14: and did macros be an important part for the development?
2019-09-04T21:24:42Z jackdaniel: vms14: the main developer of mezzano is froggey
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2019-09-04T21:27:06Z aeth: ebrasca is (distant) second in contributions. https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/graphs/contributors
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2019-09-04T21:30:08Z vms14: oh
2019-09-04T21:30:28Z vms14: froggey: then the questions are for you
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2019-09-04T21:38:58Z froggey: vms14: I'm not quite sure I understand the first question. mezzano is written in common lisp, with very small amounts of assembly. you can write operating systems in other languages
2019-09-04T21:39:11Z froggey: macros haven't been particularly important, I guess no more important than in any other software written in CL
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2019-09-04T21:43:57Z vms14: froggey: I mean, mezzano is an operating system written almost entirely by one person
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2019-09-04T21:44:54Z vms14: you guess you could have achieved this without lisp, using for example, C?
2019-09-04T21:45:50Z froggey: yes. time spent is probably more important than language
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2019-09-04T21:47:38Z vms14: idk what you mean
2019-09-04T21:48:06Z vms14: but seems to be that does not matter the language until you spent time in something
2019-09-04T21:48:48Z LdBeth: vms14: MINIX?
2019-09-04T21:48:56Z vms14: what?
2019-09-04T21:48:57Z vms14: xD
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2019-09-04T21:49:47Z froggey: Toaruos is another OS developed by one person, it's written in C
2019-09-04T21:50:04Z ebrasca: vms14: No , I am contributing to mezzano.
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2019-09-04T21:50:06Z froggey: if you're able to put the time & effort in, then you can use whatever language you want
2019-09-04T21:50:28Z vms14: yeah that's right
2019-09-04T21:50:39Z froggey: common lisp is certainly a nicer programming language to use than C
2019-09-04T21:51:15Z vms14: but I suppose common lisp gave you some features that made the development better/easier or whatever
2019-09-04T21:52:10Z vms14: and I was thinking if macros were key in that development or they did your development different
2019-09-04T21:52:42Z ebrasca: vms14: common lisp is fun.
2019-09-04T21:52:47Z vms14: it is
2019-09-04T21:52:48Z froggey: garbage collection, bounds checking, type checking, etc. it's a less error prone language
2019-09-04T21:53:14Z vms14: I'm trying to mix perl with common lisp in a dirty way
2019-09-04T21:53:28Z vms14: I'm going to try with local sockets
2019-09-04T21:53:47Z froggey: live development through a repl and slime too. clos/generic functions...
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2019-09-04T21:57:15Z pjb: vms14: you should study http://cliki.net/Performance
2019-09-04T22:03:26Z aeth: vms14: Perl (or maybe Perl 6, since it's standardized) is actually one of the languages I'd consider implementing on CL (in the very long run) since it's basically just a regex DSL that is increasingly ugly when you use it for things other than regex on lines of text.
2019-09-04T22:04:29Z vms14: yeah, I wanted to learn perl because I think as a programmer or unix user I should have a text-editing tool
2019-09-04T22:04:38Z vms14: and I was deciding if perl or awk
2019-09-04T22:05:13Z vms14: I chose perl and I guess I did well, it's very useful and replaces bash
2019-09-04T22:05:30Z aeth: Just use (loop :for line := (read-line file-stream nil nil) :while line ...)
2019-09-04T22:05:32Z vms14: it seems the best language for unix scripting
2019-09-04T22:05:40Z aeth: eh
2019-09-04T22:05:46Z aeth: Python replaced Perl in most Unix scripts for a reason
2019-09-04T22:05:53Z vms14: which reason?
2019-09-04T22:06:04Z vms14: I thought it was for readibility and learning curve
2019-09-04T22:06:19Z vms14: not for being "better" suited for unix scripting
2019-09-04T22:06:20Z aeth: Perl has a lot of ugliness that only makes sense in a historical context of comparing it to sh and awk etc. Lots of things that hurt reliability.
2019-09-04T22:06:26Z aeth: And it's hard to even do stuff like arrays.
2019-09-04T22:06:59Z vms14: yeah but it boosts your productivity and you end writing a lot of scripts
2019-09-04T22:07:04Z aeth: With most scripting languages (and even CL used in that role) it's very easy to have hash tables and a simple (and probably adjustable) generic array.
2019-09-04T22:07:10Z vms14: automating everything and making a lot of little tools
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2019-09-04T22:07:36Z vms14: in cl I would prefer lists and property lists instead of hash tables
2019-09-04T22:07:50Z vms14: but, are in cl faster the hash tables than property lists?
2019-09-04T22:07:51Z aeth: Even though it might be the ugliest, when I must script Unix as Unix and can't use CL, then I use bash (and I don't even use bash as a shell, I use zsh there) because I can assume that it's on nearly every machine
2019-09-04T22:07:58Z aeth: Plain POSIX sh doesn't give enough convenience features.
2019-09-04T22:08:11Z vms14: aeth: then use sh, not bash
2019-09-04T22:08:13Z vms14: oh
2019-09-04T22:08:34Z vms14: I have no bash, so for use your script I need to install bash
2019-09-04T22:08:59Z vms14: perl is more likely to be installed than bash, if you're not in linux
2019-09-04T22:09:26Z aeth: vms14: hash tables are O(1) but with a higher cost. plists are O(n) but with a lower cost. This means that for small data plists (or alists) are faster than hash tables, but for large data hash-tables are larger, and where that line crosses is implementation-specific (and possibly OS specific etc.)
2019-09-04T22:09:43Z aeth: Well O(1) lookup vs. O(n) worstcase lookup
2019-09-04T22:09:49Z aeth: Obviously there's a whole table of various tradeoffs
2019-09-04T22:10:12Z aeth: s/for large data hash-tables are larger/for large amounts of data hash-tables are faster/
2019-09-04T22:10:19Z vms14: then for "big" data hash tables and for small property lists?
2019-09-04T22:10:29Z aeth: no, that's a micro-optimization
2019-09-04T22:10:55Z aeth: I'd personally just use hash-tables unless they're particularly inconvenient, especially when you're using scripting idioms where you'd expect hash tables in other languages.
2019-09-04T22:10:59Z vms14: I like a lot property lists, and I even see them as basic replacement for structs or CLOS
2019-09-04T22:11:18Z aeth: When n is small, there's a higher fixed cost for hash-tables, but it doesn't matter as much, because n is small
2019-09-04T22:11:32Z vms14: and CLOS, how much overhead adds?
2019-09-04T22:11:40Z vms14: it's suitable for scripting? I guess nope
2019-09-04T22:12:14Z vms14: idk why run program from asdf is a lot slower than sb-ext:run-program
2019-09-04T22:12:17Z aeth: vms14: I personally tend to use plists for things in macros, or for things that are intended to be read and processed sequentially (which is usually the case for macros, anyway).
2019-09-04T22:12:21Z vms14: and the reason seems to be CLOS
2019-09-04T22:12:57Z aeth: So SBCL internally likes to use structs, but usually with the caveat that that's an implementation detail and could change at any time.
2019-09-04T22:13:20Z aeth: And with SBCL in particular, SBCL can do more optimizations to structure-objects than to standard-objects (defined by defclass)
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2019-09-04T22:14:05Z aeth: In particular, in SBCL, storing it in a standard object will guarantee that the type information will be lost (same with storing it in a hash table, or a list, or an array without a supported specialized element-type)
2019-09-04T22:14:13Z vms14: ah yeah, someone told me CLOS is very dynamic and the compiler cannot be sure of what type of value the slots are
2019-09-04T22:14:30Z vms14: so it's not able to optimize it
2019-09-04T22:14:45Z aeth: With a struct in SBCL, a slot can have a :type and the type will be respected in SBCL because redefining a struct by C-c C-c defstruct is undefined so the types in the accessors can be inlined (also, the accessors aren't very generic)
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2019-09-04T22:15:19Z aeth: A lot of the time, when you're using a struct accessor, something is either of the given type, or it's an error because it's not the right struct type. So the compiler can infer more.
2019-09-04T22:15:32Z vms14: but a plist will be "cheaper" than a struct
2019-09-04T22:15:34Z vms14: not?
2019-09-04T22:15:58Z aeth: well, a struct doesn't get you a sequence, unless you make your own cons-like linked lists from them yourself
2019-09-04T22:16:15Z vms14: yeah the problem is traversing the list
2019-09-04T22:16:18Z aeth: and those tend to be about 30% slower than lists (but I tested them against regular lists being used as regular lists, not plists)
2019-09-04T22:16:36Z aeth: maybe because they're larger in memory, maybe because not everything is optimized so there's some added type checks
2019-09-04T22:17:03Z aeth: vms14: but... the context we were talking about is Unix scripting, and even SBCL at its slowest should be faster than Ruby, which is one of the languages that's used for Unix scripting.
2019-09-04T22:17:16Z aeth: (In fact, I can't uninstall Ruby, Python 3, or Perl because they're all used by core things in my distro)
2019-09-04T22:17:43Z vms14: specially python and perl
2019-09-04T22:17:49Z vms14: python is in linux base
2019-09-04T22:18:10Z vms14: you simply cannot remove python without breaking your system xD
2019-09-04T22:18:25Z aeth: vms14: For scripting, the main thing you don't want is a JIT runtime, because JIT has a warmup time that adds a fixed cost to each run of the program. So it could e.g. be like 1-2 seconds minimum with no faster possibilities.
2019-09-04T22:18:41Z aeth: You wouldn't want to compose things at the shell like that.
2019-09-04T22:19:02Z vms14: and for make "scripts" with sbcl which is the best way
2019-09-04T22:19:33Z vms14: save image, sbcl --script or compiled?
2019-09-04T22:19:42Z pjb: vms14: for less than 5 entries alist and plist are usually faster than hash-table.  This can go up to 35 in the case of clisp.
2019-09-04T22:20:24Z aeth: vms14: what you'd probably want to do in a script is you'd put your code in an ASDF system, and have a very minimal file load it and run an entry point, possibly in a Python-style (defun main () ...) (main)
2019-09-04T22:20:27Z vms14: clisp starts faster than sbcl
2019-09-04T22:20:35Z vms14: so maybe is better option than sbcl for scripting
2019-09-04T22:20:40Z aeth: It depends
2019-09-04T22:21:10Z aeth: CLISP is faster than SBCL in a program that does nothing. Now make the program do something. CLISP will quickly fall behind. Do you want to microoptimize which implementation is the fastest for each script?
2019-09-04T22:21:22Z vms14: xD
2019-09-04T22:21:45Z aeth: There's some point at which CLISP is slower than SBCL for a script even with a faster start time. This might even depend on the particular machine.
2019-09-04T22:22:06Z aeth: But it doesn't really matter. What's more important is that neither are JIT... JIT will add significant startup overhead
2019-09-04T22:22:29Z pjb: A lot of scripts are one-liners or close…
2019-09-04T22:22:37Z pjb: and I/O bound.
2019-09-04T22:23:06Z vms14: a lot of unix scripts are oneliners
2019-09-04T22:23:38Z vms14: and most of them write to files and exec commands
2019-09-04T22:23:40Z aeth: I personally wouldn't use CLISP because I can't expect everything to run on CLISP these days. Interestingly, my distro's maintainers (I use Fedora) gave up on waiting for a new official CLISP and have been building a git version of CLISP for a while, and I just never noticed the RPM version string before.
2019-09-04T22:24:02Z vms14: well clisp is used to build sbcl
2019-09-04T22:24:15Z aeth: Right, so in a sense, CLISP can run every library, if it first compiles SBCL.
2019-09-04T22:24:23Z vms14: xD
2019-09-04T22:24:25Z aeth: That might add to startup time, though.
2019-09-04T22:24:57Z pjb: Libraries that are sbcl-specific are bad libraries. They're not Common Lisp libraries, they're sbcl libraries.  They're out of consideration in the first  place in #lisp.
2019-09-04T22:25:07Z no-defun-allowed: vms14: https://i.redd.it/x6rfr21bnqs21.jpg
2019-09-04T22:25:41Z aeth: pjb: It's not that libraries are SBCL-specific, it's that libraries support m of n implementations where (<= m n) and once you use enough of them, eventually you get something that probably can only run on SBCL and CCL, although it normally doesn't get that bad.
2019-09-04T22:26:01Z vms14: aeth: why you're thinking in mixing cl with perl/perl6 and how you're going to do it?
2019-09-04T22:26:01Z pjb: The real problem with clisp is that it depends on ffcall (and libsigsegv) and those libraries are not available on all platforms, notably on Darwin.  Which makes clisp much better on linux than on other platforms.
2019-09-04T22:26:36Z pjb: But again, if you exclude non-lisp libraries, (ie. libraries using FFI), then you don't have any problem using clisp.
2019-09-04T22:26:43Z no-defun-allowed: I couldn't build CLISP on my Raspberry Pi 2, since it couldn't find libsigsegv even after I built it using the exact instructions it gave me.
2019-09-04T22:27:11Z aeth: pjb: to be fair, though, we're talking about CL as a scripting language, so performance should include FFI, and it should include performance of the run-external-program functionality, perhaps wrapped through a library like UIOP
2019-09-04T22:27:21Z aeth: Unix scripting is always incredibly multilingual
2019-09-04T22:28:39Z vms14: aeth: what benefits do you guess perl will add to lisp
2019-09-04T22:28:57Z vms14: because I started by doing some dirty execs calling oneliners
2019-09-04T22:29:04Z no-defun-allowed: Job security: no one can read your Lisp code with Perl in it.
2019-09-04T22:29:07Z vms14: and the first benefit I see is cpan modules
2019-09-04T22:29:15Z pjb: aeth: clisp run-program is one of the nicest.
2019-09-04T22:29:30Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: yeah, ultra obfuscated by default
2019-09-04T22:29:46Z vms14: parens hiding sigils
2019-09-04T22:30:00Z vms14: inside a regexp
2019-09-04T22:30:02Z aeth: vms14: A Perl-on-Lisp would provide better regex. It probably wouldn't run CPAN. Even though Perl 6 (aka Raku) is less popular, it's probably more likely to run libraries because it's a standardized language so you don't need to be bug for bug compatible with a large program.
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2019-09-04T22:30:19Z pjb: vms14: the quality of cpan module is very bad.  Just forget perl.  I refuse to install it on my systems…
2019-09-04T22:30:30Z vms14: aeth: wasn't cl-ppcre faster than perl regexp engine?
2019-09-04T22:30:39Z pjb: it is.
2019-09-04T22:30:46Z vms14: I saw some posts arguing ppcre doubles perl speed
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2019-09-04T22:31:07Z aeth: vms14: if cl-ppcre is ppc enough of re then wouldn't a cl-perl use cl-ppcre in its implementation?
2019-09-04T22:32:06Z vms14: and what you're aiming to do?
2019-09-04T22:32:08Z aeth: vms14: Competing with scripting languages is kind of a best case scenario for writing your own implementations in terms of performance, though. Besides JS and LuaJIT they tend to be very non-competitive.
2019-09-04T22:32:13Z vms14: connect them with sockets?
2019-09-04T22:32:28Z vms14: or putting perl features on lisp?
2019-09-04T22:33:28Z vms14: I'm not sure if my decision of mixing perl and lisp was a good idea or not
2019-09-04T22:33:30Z aeth: vms14: I intend to eventually have a language-on-CL platform. Some people have written $language on CL, but it's just a one-off, and there probably isn't much code sharing.
2019-09-04T22:33:44Z vms14: I think yes, specially for oneliners and the available modules
2019-09-04T22:33:59Z vms14: but, maybe would be better to do everything with lisp
2019-09-04T22:34:08Z aeth: vms14: From what I've seen with individual attempts (e.g. Python), the advantage is improved performance (with the exception of the JS one, obviously) and easier embedding. The disadvantage is library compatibilty.
2019-09-04T22:34:36Z aeth: vms14: I wouldn't mind if everyone wrote everything in CL...
2019-09-04T22:34:51Z vms14: aeth: I think is what I should do
2019-09-04T22:35:14Z vms14: write everything in lisp and forget other languages, but I'm not doing it
2019-09-04T22:36:14Z pjb: vms14: and if you want to reuse something written in foreign language, wrap it in separate process, and use pipes to communicate.  So you can stay 100% in CL.
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2019-09-04T22:37:15Z vms14: well the idea I have is run perl and daemonize it by using an infinite loop reading and accepting from a local socket
2019-09-04T22:37:38Z vms14: and start by doing dirty evals from what I read and building lists as a response
2019-09-04T22:37:44Z aeth: vms14: If you can compile Language X to CL, and in doing so you make a faster implementation of Language X (so e.g. probably won't convince C fans), then that's a good thing for CL imo, assuming there's a good enough Foo<->CL function call API.
2019-09-04T22:37:48Z aeth: Just imo, though.
2019-09-04T22:39:30Z aeth: vms14: I'm mainly looking at it from the perspective of CL applications aimed at desktop users, though. It's much easier to pitch to people "script this in 15 languages" than it is to pitch "script this in Common Lisp".
2019-09-04T22:40:32Z vms14: yeah, but if no one sees common lisp is used they won't be interested
2019-09-04T22:40:42Z vms14: if they see a lot of useful scripts written in common lisp
2019-09-04T22:40:52Z vms14: maybe they look different
2019-09-04T22:41:21Z aeth: Well, the Common Lisp will (probably) be faster, of course, since it's the native language, unless a CL-in-CL is used for sandboxing or something.
2019-09-04T22:41:41Z vms14: and, isn't scheme better suited than cl for scripting?
2019-09-04T22:41:50Z aeth: heh
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2019-09-04T22:42:51Z aeth: The first complete language I'm going to do on this platform in Scheme because it has a ton of similarities with CL and it's very simple. Then I might do something like Forth, which is notoriously simple, even though it's far more niche than even any (notable) Lisp language is.
2019-09-04T22:43:16Z vms14: forth is interesting
2019-09-04T22:43:39Z aeth: Next up is probably Lua, even though I don't particularly like Lua and I might not be able to beat LuaJIT in performance (although I'll probably beat official Lua) because it's probably the simplest of the popular (well, relatively speaking) scripting languages.
2019-09-04T22:43:49Z aeth: And then maybe POSIX shell? Even uglier than Lua, but probably not that much harder.
2019-09-04T22:44:04Z aeth: I doubt that'd be useful as a sandboxed scripting language, though!
2019-09-04T22:44:51Z vms14: maybe some sort of transpiler or interpreter for bash in order to add compatibility
2019-09-04T22:45:28Z aeth: And then if I'd get that far then Python 2/3, Perl 5/6, PHP, JavaScript/TypeScript, and Ruby would all make good candidates for later explorations. Maybe some other unpopular but interesting languages, too, like Smalltalk.
2019-09-04T22:45:36Z vms14: but don't worry, once you start your first ideas start to change too
2019-09-04T22:46:01Z aeth: It'd be pretty funny if I did implement both Python 2 and Python 3, though, because I'd then have 2-and-3 interop in the same platform. idk if that has been done before, maybe in PyPy?
2019-09-04T22:46:07Z vms14: javascript will add popularity to your platform
2019-09-04T22:46:20Z vms14: also python
2019-09-04T22:46:48Z aeth: JavaScript/TypeScript, Forth, and LuaJIT are the ones I'm not sure I'd be able to beat in performance (at least, not using a general, portable framework)
2019-09-04T22:46:56Z vms14: and if you make some sort of html css interpreter for graphic stuff
2019-09-04T22:47:08Z vms14: this would be nice
2019-09-04T22:47:24Z vms14: all front developers would be able to use what they know
2019-09-04T22:47:41Z aeth: Well HTML/XML/SXP/CSS/CSV/Markdown/org/JSON/etc. would be a different project (or several).
2019-09-04T22:48:16Z aeth: SXP being a formally specified s-expression format that can be read to and written from other languages.
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2019-09-04T22:48:28Z aeth: Because it's the conciseness of JSON with the structure of XML, sow hat's not to like?
2019-09-04T22:48:32Z vms14: I dream with something like (title "hi" color "red")
2019-09-04T22:49:34Z aeth: But Scheme is very doable because it has many data structures in common and hasn't diverged that much (although r7rs has diverged in places where r4rs had not yet done so)
2019-09-04T22:49:52Z aeth: For other languages, they might have e.g. a specific string representation in mind that's incompatible with CL's and that requires a lot of work
2019-09-04T22:49:55Z pjb: vms14: even if you're not programming in lisp, you can use (title "hi" color "red"). It's trivial to parse!!!
2019-09-04T22:50:19Z aeth: It's possible that I might just have to settle for making languages superficially like Python/JS/etc. without actually implementing all of their quirks
2019-09-04T22:50:25Z vms14: pjb: yeah I know, I hope I'll do something like that
2019-09-04T22:50:37Z vms14: I know there is cl-who spinneret and css stuff
2019-09-04T22:50:39Z vms14: but meh
2019-09-04T22:50:53Z vms14: I'd like to have a lisp as a replacement for html css and js
2019-09-04T22:51:03Z pjb: if char= #\( then read a list.  if #\" then read a string.  if alpha then read a symbol. if digit then read an integer (or float).  and you're set.
2019-09-04T22:51:54Z vms14: isn't better with reader macros?
2019-09-04T22:52:20Z vms14: I have to try them
2019-09-04T22:52:33Z vms14: just did a simple test
2019-09-04T22:54:17Z vms14: https://ebzzry.io/en/script-lisp/
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2019-09-04T22:58:18Z aeth: vms14: there are quite a few XML/HTML/XHTML/etc. representations as s-expressions, where the hard part is how to handle attributes.
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2019-09-04T22:59:13Z aeth: (:a (:href "https://example.com")) looks more elegant, but you'd afaik have to special case everything to distinguish between <a href...> and <a> <href> ...
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2019-09-04T22:59:44Z aeth: I think (:a :href "https://example.com") would work as you expect, even though it doesn't look as elegant, and even though implementing things with a plist in front and an arbitrary tail isn't as elegant
2019-09-04T23:00:13Z aeth: Essentially, anytime you see a keyword in the 1st through nth position (instead of the 0th) you'd know that it's an attribute, and you know that it has to alternate between key/value or it's an error.
2019-09-04T23:00:55Z vms14: yeah, but I'd like to have something more like a "new" language
2019-09-04T23:00:56Z aeth: e.g. (:foo :bar 42 :baz "quux" "This is a" (:em "sentence") "!")
2019-09-04T23:01:12Z vms14: for example typing (title hi color red)
2019-09-04T23:01:29Z vms14: would add <title> in head and h1 in the body
2019-09-04T23:01:39Z vms14: with the same text
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2019-09-04T23:01:53Z aeth: once you have it in an s-expression form, you can do whatever you want with it with macros
2019-09-04T23:02:01Z vms14: also add microdata, the bad part is for microdata I need to make questions
2019-09-04T23:02:03Z aeth: that's the whole point of using s-expressions instead of templated HTML
2019-09-04T23:02:12Z vms14: and/or let the user a way to add microdata
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2019-09-04T23:04:39Z gilberth__: aeth: It is unfortunate that the alternative S-expr syntax for SGML like (:A (:HREF "foo") ...) seems to be more common. I prefer (:A :HREF "foo" ...).
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2019-09-04T23:05:18Z aeth: gilberth__: it's more common and I like the look of it more, and I like superficially how it's implemented more, but thinking about it, I think you'd have to hardcode a lot of information about HTML to make it work afaik
2019-09-04T23:05:20Z vms14: I'd prefer (link "foo" "click here")
2019-09-04T23:05:34Z vms14: and even have a way to add some onclick event or alike
2019-09-04T23:05:36Z aeth: vms14: think about it as a multi-pass compiler... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-pass_compiler#/media/File:Multi-passcompiler.png
2019-09-04T23:06:29Z aeth: vms14: the part where you generate a data file (e.g. HTML or XML) or source code (e.g. SQL or GLSL) is the last step, the code generation step, where you're taking s-expressions and turning them into strings (or whatever... maybe even compiling a language to ASM!)
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2019-09-04T23:06:57Z aeth: But you're free to do as many steps as you want
2019-09-04T23:07:05Z vms14: well the first attemtp was to emulate the js dom with CLOS
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2019-09-04T23:07:33Z vms14: and then make a recursive function that looks for the node you give it and goes rendering and traversing all the children
2019-09-04T23:08:05Z vms14: but I guess I'll go with plists
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2019-09-04T23:08:47Z vms14: so nodes are symbols and properties are in their property list
2019-09-04T23:08:49Z aeth: vms14: It's trivial to turn (link "foo" "click here") into (:a :href "foo" "click here") which then is not-as-trivially (but not *too* difficultly) turned into "<a href=\"foo\"> click here </a>"
2019-09-04T23:09:20Z aeth: vms14: What you want at the base layer is as close to a direct representation of the target (data or programming) language as possible.
2019-09-04T23:09:45Z vms14: why?
2019-09-04T23:09:57Z aeth: Because then every step is simple and isolated
2019-09-04T23:10:11Z vms14: makes sense
2019-09-04T23:10:38Z aeth: Even if you're writing everything yourself, pretend you're not. Alice is writing a program that turns (:a :href "foo" "click here") into "<a href=\"foo\"> click here </a>" and Bob is writing a program that turns (link "foo" "click here") into (:a :href "foo" "click here")
2019-09-04T23:11:06Z aeth: (okay, maybe there wouldn't be spacing around the "click here" in the generated HTML, but it doesn't look as good without that spacing)
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2019-09-04T23:11:42Z vms14: long time not seen Alice and Bob
2019-09-04T23:11:43Z vms14: xD
2019-09-04T23:11:57Z vms14: the last time was with ssl explainations
2019-09-04T23:12:06Z aeth: But notice how they're very different tasks. One is writing characters to a stream. The other is turning one CL list into another (although it might be at macro-expansion time)
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2019-09-04T23:12:46Z aeth: And you can have as many layers of one CL list into another as you want. And you can even have a step that adds a parser so you can just read in text files that look like this: link "foo" "click here"
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2019-09-04T23:13:35Z vms14: well it seems easier because you have the steps better defined
2019-09-04T23:13:45Z vms14: and you can focus in doing just one thing
2019-09-04T23:13:57Z vms14: also you gain isolation and flexibility
2019-09-04T23:14:11Z vms14: and with flexibility come extensible programs
2019-09-04T23:14:46Z aeth: That's 90% of programming in general. You have a big complicated task and you want to break it into as many trivial steps as possible, to the point where if any single piece is taken in isolation, then anyone would wonder what you're even doing or why it's taking you so long.
2019-09-04T23:15:02Z aeth: The observers should be able to say "I could do that myself!" because they could.
2019-09-04T23:15:22Z aeth: Except, of course, there's 10,000 such things, and what makes your program different is you took the time to do all of them (or found suitable libraries where available)
2019-09-04T23:16:40Z aeth: And the whole reason you're generating XML/HTML/XHTML/etc. is because such data formats are *NOT* like that at all. They're unreadable messes, but you don't have to write them by hand.
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2019-09-04T23:42:13Z drmeister: How does one suppress the debugger from coming up?  Bind *debugger-hook* that just returns?
2019-09-04T23:42:29Z Bike: what do you want to happen instead?
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2019-09-05T00:09:21Z aeth: drmeister: Do you mean something like running everything wrapped like this? (handler-bind ((t (lambda (c) (declare (ignore c)) (invoke-restart 'abort)))) (/ 1 0))
2019-09-05T00:09:41Z aeth: Bike: drmeister said "just returns" so I'm assuming (although I could be incorrect) that it's always selecting abort
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2019-09-05T00:10:03Z Bike: that's just ignore-errors
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2019-09-05T00:13:19Z aeth: ah, I've never had to do that
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2019-09-05T00:25:18Z pjb: drmeister: *debugger-hook* is called by invoke-debugger, so it might be a little drastic to bind it to override the debugger.  You would do that in a proprietary program to avoid users having access to the inners of your lisp image…
2019-09-05T00:27:03Z pjb: drmeister: wrapping your main (or main loop body) in a handler-bind is a better solution, but it's inconvenient when you still have bugs.  For this, I use handler-bind, and print out the backtrace before doing the non-local exit from handler-bind.  You can also still call invoke-debugger in the handler-bind upon when a flag is set to be able to debug if needed.
2019-09-05T00:43:16Z aeth: pjb: in a proprietary program you'd launch it with a one-liner that includes --disable-debugger (or whatever the equivalent is if it's not SBCL... all of the command line arguments are different in different implementations)
2019-09-05T00:43:43Z aeth: (which of course means that that script could be edited)
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2019-09-05T00:45:48Z pjb: aeth: nope, I don't use implementation specific stuff. I prefer to implement the functionalities I need using CL features.
2019-09-05T00:47:01Z aeth: well, you could just write a script that selects the appropriate name based on the implementation... but if it's proprietary you'd probably just write to one
2019-09-05T00:50:29Z aeth: there are libraries that can kind of handle this sort of thing portably afaik
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2019-09-05T00:56:33Z pjb: Yeah. Like setting *debugger-hook* is a 100% purely conforming way DUH!
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2019-09-05T01:26:16Z DrDuck: so if you plan on going through 'art of the metaobject protocol', do you have to copy/compile the code from appendix D, the closette system, first before you can really interact with the book and its exercises?
2019-09-05T01:26:31Z Bike: no, your lisp implementation probably has mop built in.
2019-09-05T01:27:26Z DrDuck: yeah but closette is supposed to have a lot of restrictions and things not built in
2019-09-05T01:27:34Z DrDuck: that's the impression i'm getting
2019-09-05T01:27:42Z DrDuck: and then the book wants you to add things slowly?
2019-09-05T01:27:55Z Bike: well it's not exactly an instruction manual
2019-09-05T01:28:00Z Bike: it's a description of what i did
2019-09-05T01:28:06Z DrDuck: O_o
2019-09-05T01:28:09Z Bike: er
2019-09-05T01:28:10Z Bike: they
2019-09-05T01:28:11Z Bike: sorry
2019-09-05T01:29:00Z DrDuck: welp... alright
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2019-09-05T01:32:19Z jack-thomas: Hi, I'm having this weird thing where if I try to compile a file that defines a struct and then immediately tries to define a constant whos value is an instance of said struct SBCL says "no such function make-car" (where struct name was car)
2019-09-05T01:32:40Z jack-thomas: But if I run the same code at REPL it is fine
2019-09-05T01:33:04Z no-defun-allowed: I've never had defconstant work as expected, honestly.
2019-09-05T01:33:22Z jack-thomas: So I'm doing (defstruct car :color) and then (defconstant BLACK-CAR (make-car :color 'black))
2019-09-05T01:33:29Z no-defun-allowed: I had something similar go wrong, with (defclass foo ...) (defconstant +thing+ (make-instance 'foo)) and SBCL didn't like that a bit.
2019-09-05T01:33:37Z Bike: defstruct is evaluated at loda time, but the constant is evaluated at compile time
2019-09-05T01:34:04Z jack-thomas: Bike: hmmm
2019-09-05T01:34:05Z no-defun-allowed: Probably something about compilation environments -- Bike is probably right.
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2019-09-05T01:35:36Z jack-thomas: Hi Bike can you explain 'load time' to me
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2019-09-05T01:36:07Z jack-thomas: And do I need to read something to avoid gotcha's like this in the future or what do I do lol
2019-09-05T01:36:16Z jack-thomas: Sorry if that is such a helpless question
2019-09-05T01:36:18Z Bike: sure. so, you're doing like (compile-file "foo.lisp") or something, right? maybe indirectly through emacs.
2019-09-05T01:36:24Z jack-thomas: Yes
2019-09-05T01:36:39Z Bike: what that does is you know, compile the file, it produces a compiled file. Then you (load "foo.fasl") and that loads the compiled file.
2019-09-05T01:36:47Z jack-thomas: Perfect thanks
2019-09-05T01:36:49Z Bike: "load time" is stuff that happens during load, "compile time" is stuff that happens during compile
2019-09-05T01:37:00Z Bike: when you compile a file you don't actually execute the code in it
2019-09-05T01:37:13Z Bike: like if you have a file with just (print 'x) in it or something, it won't actually print until you load the file
2019-09-05T01:37:25Z Bike: similarly, in your file the defstruct won't actually be executed until you load the file
2019-09-05T01:37:25Z jack-thomas: Right haha. Thanks for the breakdown
2019-09-05T01:37:37Z jack-thomas: WHy is that though
2019-09-05T01:37:45Z Bike: Why is what?
2019-09-05T01:37:53Z jack-thomas: Oh shit nvm
2019-09-05T01:38:14Z Bike: Ok so anyway, defconstant is allowed to actually evaluate the constant at compile time, and evidently in your implementation it's trying to do so.
2019-09-05T01:38:26Z Bike: But it can't, because the defstruct hasn't actually been executed. Thus, problems.
2019-09-05T01:38:45Z jack-thomas: Yeah that makes sense. I guess that part is the only weird part.
2019-09-05T01:41:07Z Bike: it's a little unusual.
2019-09-05T01:41:32Z Bike: the way you can deal with it is using the eval-when operator to force the compiler to evaluate things.
2019-09-05T01:41:46Z Bike: but in this case you'd probably run into other issues because of how defconstant works if evaluated repeatedly
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2019-09-05T01:52:26Z pjb: jack-thomas: use eval-when
2019-09-05T01:52:45Z pjb: and defparameter instead of defconstant.
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2019-09-05T01:59:24Z jack-thomas: pjb: I will look into that, I appreciate it. Bike: you the best, thanks for giving me the right words. I'm trying to wrap my head around what compiling really means in CL. It looks like compiling is not the process of translating source code into native instructions, like I used to assume
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2019-09-05T02:01:12Z pjb: jack-thomas: yes, it is this. But like loading, it's done one form at a time.  Notably, some parts of some forms can be evaluated while compiling.  Notably, macros are expanded at compilation-time (ie. macro functions are called).
2019-09-05T02:02:09Z pjb: jack-thomas: that said, you are probably doing something wrong when wanting to load your structure definition into the compiler to instantiate structure instance at compilation-time.  You most probably don't want to do that.
2019-09-05T02:02:36Z pjb: jack-thomas: first, don't use defconstant.  Your problem probably comes from this error.
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2019-09-05T02:03:23Z pjb: defconstant is designed to let the compiler inline some literal values into the code.  It can be useful only on values that can ACTUALLY be immediate values in the native code.  Ie. small integers, and that's it.
2019-09-05T02:04:01Z pjb: (this is why the expression of the value of the constant has to be evaluated at compilation time).
2019-09-05T02:04:12Z Bike: not necessarily. that's most of the process in most implementations, though.
2019-09-05T02:04:35Z Bike: but lisp lets you put arbitrary objects in compiled code, and execute arbitrary effects while compiling.
2019-09-05T02:04:41Z pjb: Even trying to use constant variables in CASE clauses doesn't work: defconstant is not designed for that!
2019-09-05T02:05:09Z pjb: Bike: Yes, it does. But this is advanced stuff, that you do if you really want to develop a compiler plug-in.
2019-09-05T02:05:30Z pjb: Anyway, don't use defconstant, it doesn't do what you think.
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2019-09-05T02:08:23Z jack-thomas: pjb: Is there a recognized way to make a special variable final?
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2019-09-05T02:13:45Z pjb: jack-thomas: not a CL notion. But you can define symbol macros.
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2019-09-05T02:39:52Z White_Flame: jack-thomas: btw, if you want to solve your original problem, put the defstruct in a file that's loaded before the one with your defconstant
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2019-09-05T02:40:11Z White_Flame: ...and timed out
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2019-09-05T02:59:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-05T03:44:03Z drmeister: pjb: Thank you for your perspective on *debugger-hook*
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2019-09-05T09:06:21Z no-defun-allowed: What's the easiest type of parser to implement?
2019-09-05T09:06:35Z beach: Recursive descent.
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2019-09-05T09:07:13Z beach: Different techniques have different restrictions.
2019-09-05T09:07:43Z beach: Recursive descent can't handle left recursion, for instance.
2019-09-05T09:07:47Z Shinmera: even easier: a parser that can only recognise constants.
2019-09-05T09:07:50Z no-defun-allowed: Would that work with particuarly complicated grammars? I'm new to parsing, but I'd like to parse an ASCII guitar tab (or any kind of n-dimensional "image", but that's what I have in mind).
2019-09-05T09:08:25Z beach: Oh, then that may be way simpler.
2019-09-05T09:08:25Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, well, I don't think there's much recursion there, so I should be safe.
2019-09-05T09:08:32Z beach: Yeah.
2019-09-05T09:08:47Z beach: Then I suggest "ad hoc" instead.
2019-09-05T09:09:00Z beach: Just write some code that recognizes it.
2019-09-05T09:09:14Z no-defun-allowed: Right then.
2019-09-05T09:09:36Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks.
2019-09-05T09:09:43Z beach: Sure.
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2019-09-05T09:18:45Z no-defun-allowed: My biggest concern is since tablature isn't a very well specified format, I would have to be very lenient and the parser might become very large. Should I be less worried?
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2019-09-05T09:22:46Z beach: I know nothing about the format, so I can't tell.  But I suspect it is not hard.
2019-09-05T09:23:04Z edgar-rft: no-defun-allowed: music notation usually is intentionally sloppy to give the musician room for impovement according to his/he skill level. Just try out what you get, Lisp also gives you room for improvement. :-)
2019-09-05T09:24:19Z edgar-rft: In case of doubt: I know howto read guitar tabs (with my eyes) and can help at least with that.
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2019-09-05T09:24:39Z no-defun-allowed: Well, here is an example: https://coinsh.red/u/three-of-a-perfect-pair.text
2019-09-05T09:25:25Z no-defun-allowed: I've read a lot too, but I'm not sure how to start writing a program to read the format.
2019-09-05T09:27:29Z White_Flame: FORTH style postfix is the easiest "parser" to implement, if you're talking about executing a stream of instructions
2019-09-05T09:27:49Z White_Flame: it doesn't bother with an AST or anything, though, if  you're looking for intermediate representations
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2019-09-05T09:29:03Z White_Flame: I don't think that standard notions of programming language parsing is going to be meaningful for ascii art, though
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2019-09-05T09:30:50Z White_Flame: there's absolutely no standards in tab,  except for numbers meaning frets.  Timing of notes, how repeats are represented, all the various annotations, are all completely ad hoc
2019-09-05T09:35:16Z beach: Isn't there a tablature format in MusicXML or a similar structured format?
2019-09-05T09:35:58Z White_Flame: yes, certain programs have their own specific format.  But most guitar tab is literally ascii art trying to describe music in the tabber's own way
2019-09-05T09:36:12Z no-defun-allowed: ^^
2019-09-05T09:36:19Z beach: Wow.
2019-09-05T09:36:50Z White_Flame: it became a thing long before modern graphical editors were conceived
2019-09-05T09:38:12Z White_Flame: and has in general been viewed as lesser than "real" sheet music, thus there being less commercial focus on it
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2019-09-05T09:39:30Z no-defun-allowed: I think the whole process of sharing guitar notation on the internet is fubar. There's at least 3 different websites for putting pseudostandardised formatted files (like Guitar Pro, MuseScore), and three dozen websites you should look at to have a good chance of finding text tab for a particular song, and half I believe are owned by one company that puts out a lot of bullshit.
2019-09-05T09:43:12Z edgar-rft: beach: Guitar tabs is an attempt for an ASCII-art-like repesentation for things musicians formely scribbled on paper. It's more like pictures than ASCII text and there is no standard except maybe that most guitars have 6 strings. :-)
2019-09-05T09:43:29Z White_Flame: no-defun-allowed: what's your goal for the information you'd wish to extract?
2019-09-05T09:44:52Z no-defun-allowed: The bare minimum I want to do is read off the bars, then reflow them so that they use whatever paper width I use better.
2019-09-05T09:45:30Z White_Flame: ah, then that should be pretty doable without much parsing at all
2019-09-05T09:45:47Z White_Flame: basically, you want to take a block of lines and put them at the end of a previous block of lines
2019-09-05T09:46:09Z White_Flame: regardless even of their content
2019-09-05T09:46:30Z no-defun-allowed: But then I'm not sure how else I'll need to backscratch, so parsing the art into some nice representation would be better in the long run.
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2019-09-05T09:47:49Z White_Flame: especially because it's all monospace-aligned, I think you'd want to keep it as blind strings of text.  If you parse them into other stuff, you'd have to deal with realigning output vertically again
2019-09-05T09:48:19Z White_Flame: even things like the chord & time signature notes above them, should retain their spacing, etc
2019-09-05T09:49:17Z White_Flame: and things like trampling Esus then Em into "EsuEm" because of lack of spacing is going to be horrible to try to unpack, unless you're just making tool code for this particular file
2019-09-05T09:49:24Z White_Flame: I've personally never seen that before
2019-09-05T09:49:44Z no-defun-allowed: From past experiences with some proper sheet music editors, they like to pin labels to notes to make the output expectable.
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2019-09-05T09:50:04Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, I think the author ran out of horizontal space and gave up there.
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2019-09-05T09:50:29Z edgar-rft: no-defun-allowed: have you eve looked at lilypond? They're using a mix of TeX and Scheme to repesent music. Lilypond also has suppot for guitar chords, both as Text and fretboad images like here -> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/predefined-fretboard-diagrams.en.html
2019-09-05T09:50:32Z White_Flame: well, the horizontal width is arbitrary to how much complexity is in a line
2019-09-05T09:50:54Z White_Flame: the author just didn't feel like making it wider since the notes themselves didn't warrant it, though they did so where the notes did
2019-09-05T09:52:11Z edgar-rft: sorry, my #%$§! R-key is still broken
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2019-09-05T10:23:17Z SaganMan: Morning beach!
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2019-09-05T10:33:34Z Shinmera: I recently changed some policies about my libraries and projects. I thought they might be of general interest. https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/377
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2019-09-05T11:50:53Z thijso: Shinmera: thanks for sharing. I like the changes you've made. I've been meaning to ask, the pictures you have accompanying your posts: are they made by you?
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2019-09-05T12:04:10Z Shinmera: Most of them are not, no.
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2019-09-05T12:09:10Z Shinmera: I have a pretty distinct style, so it shouldn't be difficult to see which are mine and which aren't.
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2019-09-05T14:41:45Z pjb: White_Flame: nonetheless, there exist several textual parsers working in 2D; for example HAL/S, and ascii-art mathematical expression parsers.
2019-09-05T14:42:44Z pjb: White_Flame: also, usual parsing techniques have been applied to other domains than language parsing, including computer vision ! (eg. reconsititution of symbolic 3D model of scenes).
2019-09-05T14:43:12Z pjb: White_Flame: (in this case, the tokens used were the line intersections).
2019-09-05T14:48:30Z pjb: Shinmera: AFAIK, a license clause that forbids claiming credit makes it a non-free licence.
2019-09-05T14:49:05Z Shinmera: I mean claiming credit for things you have not done. Just red the license.
2019-09-05T14:49:11Z Shinmera: *read
2019-09-05T14:50:57Z pjb: But it's ok as an open source license.
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2019-09-05T14:52:55Z pjb: Shinmera: it's a Reversed FQDN, not a FQDN ;-)
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2019-09-05T14:58:37Z pjb: Shinmera: is there not a *features* for local nicknames? You should prefix your local nicknames clauses with a #+…
2019-09-05T14:59:52Z Shinmera: That would just delay the failures.
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2019-09-05T15:03:38Z pjb: But using local nicknames is purely cosmetic, so their absence should not break your software.
2019-09-05T15:03:50Z pjb: They should be left to the final code, just like nicknames.
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2019-09-05T15:08:43Z Shinmera: If you want to write your libraries prefixing every symbol of another package with a huge, cluttering name, go ahead. I won't.
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2019-09-05T15:40:36Z remexre: kinda weird question -- is there a way to tell if a keyword argument is passed, when nil is a valid value that I want to handle separately from "not present"
2019-09-05T15:41:00Z remexre: rigt now I'm doing &key (foo 'not-present) and having logic to test for that instead of nil, but it's gross
2019-09-05T15:41:25Z schweers: remexre: &key (foo default foo-present-p)
2019-09-05T15:42:05Z schweers: I believe this works the same for keyword and optional arguments.
2019-09-05T15:42:18Z pjb: Yes.
2019-09-05T15:42:38Z remexre: oh, sweet; thanks!
2019-09-05T15:43:12Z pjb: For &key, you can choose a different symbol name for the keyword and the parameter:  (defun f (&key ((:bar foo) 'default foo-present-p)) (list foo foo-present-p)) (f) #| --> (default nil) |# (f :bar 42) #| --> (42 t) |#
2019-09-05T15:43:18Z remexre: does CLHS not mention this at all in 03_dad.htm, or am I bad at reading :|
2019-09-05T15:43:55Z pjb: It's explained in lambda lists: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_d.htm
2019-09-05T15:45:13Z pjb: Right, the supplied-p-parameter is explained in http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm
2019-09-05T15:45:16Z schweers: Cool, I didn’t know about separating the name from the keyword
2019-09-05T15:45:46Z pjb: schweers: and notice that they &key keyword can be a normal symbol. (then you have to quote it of course)
2019-09-05T15:46:01Z pjb: (defun f (&key ((bar foo) 'default foo-present-p)) (list foo foo-present-p)) #| --> f |# (f 'bar 42) #| --> (42 t) |#
2019-09-05T15:46:28Z schweers: Never gave that much thought, but now that I think of it, it does seem logical.
2019-09-05T15:46:53Z pjb: useful if you have several different bars, they can come from different packages.  (f 'fish:bar 'fishy 'measure:bar 42  'steel:bar 'string) ;-)
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2019-09-05T17:18:38Z jackdaniel: https://files.mastodon.social/media_attachments/files/018/554/072/original/b580c24032c9c573.png :)
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2019-09-05T21:49:23Z DrDuck: Is dependency directed backtracking possible through SCREAMER?
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2019-09-05T22:35:41Z remexre: so I'm trying to load :cl-ncurses on Gentoo
2019-09-05T22:36:12Z remexre: gentoo's /usr/lib/libncurses.so is a real shared object, /usr/lib64/libncurses.so is a linker script for mysterious reasons
2019-09-05T22:36:43Z remexre: cl-ncurses has a defvar for the list of directories to search
2019-09-05T22:36:53Z remexre: is there any way to override that before/as it's loaded by quicklisp?
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2019-09-05T22:42:00Z pjb: remexre: Are you sure the variable is in the package defined by cl-ncurses?
2019-09-05T22:42:19Z remexre: pretty sure
2019-09-05T22:43:01Z remexre: package.lisp is (in-package :cl-user) (defpackage ...) (in-package :cl-ncurses) (defvar *ncurses-search-paths* ...)
2019-09-05T22:43:10Z pjb: and which of the exported special variables of cl-ncurses would that be? *COLOR-PAIRS* *COLORS* *COLS* *CURSCR* *ECSDELAY*  *LINES* *NEWSCR* *STDSCR* *TABSIZE*
2019-09-05T22:43:28Z remexre: it's not exported, as far as I can tell?
2019-09-05T22:43:37Z remexre: *ncurses-search-paths*
2019-09-05T22:44:02Z pjb: ok. But it's not exported :-(
2019-09-05T22:44:10Z pjb: In that case, you will have to define the package before loading the system.
2019-09-05T22:44:24Z remexre: ugh, and I'll need to specify all the exports too, won't I
2019-09-05T22:45:05Z pjb: (defpackage "CL-NCURSES" (:use) (:export "*NCURSES-SEARCH-PATHS*")) (defparameter CL-NCURSES:*NCURSES-SEARCH-PATHS* '(…)) (cl:quickload :cl-ncurses)
2019-09-05T22:45:11Z pjb: and pray they used defvar and not defparameter.
2019-09-05T22:45:35Z remexre: ya, it's defvar
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2019-09-05T22:46:11Z pjb: remexre: send a bug report to upgrade from uffi to cffi… cffi has its own variable to searc for libraries.
2019-09-05T22:46:31Z remexre: ok
2019-09-05T22:46:42Z remexre: last release in '07 though...
2019-09-05T22:47:03Z pjb: send a patch along.
2019-09-05T22:47:17Z remexre: rip
2019-09-05T22:47:25Z pjb: IIRC, I provided a patch to cffi to deal with linker scripts.  I don't know if it has been integrated.
2019-09-05T22:48:21Z remexre: oh, https://www.cliki.net/cl-charms
2019-09-05T22:48:23Z remexre: apparently someone else tried :P
2019-09-05T22:49:13Z pjb: I assume that you already knew and considerd cl-charms, since it's mentioned on https://cliki.net/CL-Ncurses
2019-09-05T22:51:20Z remexre: I literally googled "common lisp ncurses" and got https://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-ncurses/ :P
2019-09-05T22:51:28Z remexre: yeah on consideration probably trying croatoan
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2019-09-05T23:29:21Z aeth: Wow, generating basic HTML for me is only 22 lines, most of which are special cases to handle attributes as leading plists, e.g. (:a :href "https://example.com" "Example.com")
2019-09-05T23:29:58Z aeth: Well, there's one last special case (other than escaping characters like < and &) and that's handling forms like <br>
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2019-09-06T00:10:30Z DrDuck: ping Bike
2019-09-06T00:12:06Z Bike: hm?
2019-09-06T00:12:30Z DrDuck: Do you know if dependency directed backtracking is possible in SCREAMER?
2019-09-06T00:12:45Z Bike: i do not
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2019-09-06T00:37:39Z White_Flame: DrDuck: reading through the docs, I don't really see any config for backtracking
2019-09-06T00:38:12Z White_Flame: I also don't understand the term "nondeterministic" as used there, as the choice points are in deterministic order and generally exhaustive
2019-09-06T00:39:07Z DrDuck: wonder how hard it would be to hack on screamer and add an option for dependency directed backtracking
2019-09-06T00:39:09Z LdBeth: (if (nd t nil) 1 2) => (nd 1 2)
2019-09-06T00:39:27Z DrDuck: or if that would be a bad idea and i should work on spinning something up myself first
2019-09-06T00:39:43Z White_Flame: LdBeth: yeah, but that's not what screamer seems to do, is it?
2019-09-06T00:39:44Z LdBeth: (if (nd t nil) 1 (if (nd t nil) 2 3)) => (nd 1 2 3)
2019-09-06T00:39:47Z DrDuck: "Second Screamer foregoes intelligent backtracking in favor of chronological backtracking. Experience has shown that the overhead of maintaining dependencies to support intelligent backtracking costs far more than the computation saved in most practical applications. We believe that chronological backtracking represented via nondeterminism is a useful programming paradigm when used properly. It is an important control
2019-09-06T00:39:47Z DrDuck: construct which adds signicant expressive power to CommonLisp making programs easier to write debug and understand."
2019-09-06T00:39:52Z DrDuck: from the SCREAMER paper
2019-09-06T00:40:15Z LdBeth: White_Flame: screamer does that
2019-09-06T00:40:44Z White_Flame: oh, right.  But that's still deterministic as far as I understand the term
2019-09-06T00:40:49Z White_Flame: it's basically akin to a set of prolog results
2019-09-06T00:41:58Z LdBeth: it is called nd because there's a set of results rather than only one
2019-09-06T00:42:20Z White_Flame: yeah, with some googling it appears to have a specific CS definition as such
2019-09-06T00:42:55Z LdBeth: I'm not responseble for that term :-P
2019-09-06T00:43:08Z White_Flame: heh
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2019-09-06T02:39:16Z aeth: So for all of the -7 people interested in my md->html side project, I decided to write my own HTML gen because of how concise my subset test was and it's still only 34 lines with most of the edge cases handled (I just need to escape <, >, and &, as well as " in attributes). s-expressions really do map pretty directly to XML-style languages.
2019-09-06T02:40:58Z aeth: This whole thing might just be doable in a weekend, although, to be fair, I've generated programming language strings before, which are way more complicated than web documents unless I added JS to the mix.
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2019-09-06T02:52:14Z aeth: Oh no it's Thursday it doesn't count as a weekend because I started a day early.
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2019-09-06T03:02:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-06T03:13:22Z aeth: Good morning, beach
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2019-09-06T03:32:20Z gxgx2: (let (foo and) (if (foo t nil) (print "Success") (print "Failure"))) yields an  undefined function FOO error. Is there a way to pull something like this off nicely?
2019-09-06T03:34:07Z Bike: you presumably mean (let ((foo and)) ...)
2019-09-06T03:34:08Z gxgx2: Originally, I was trying to pass the logical operators in as arguments to a function, but I don't know how to make a usable binding to them at all,
2019-09-06T03:34:12Z Bike: i mean, that won't work either
2019-09-06T03:34:31Z Bike: AND is a macro, so you can't really pass it around like you can with a function
2019-09-06T03:36:51Z aeth: gxgx2: for your specific example, maybe macrolet? (macrolet ((foo (&rest forms) `(and ,@forms))) (foo t nil)) => NIL ; replace and with or to get T
2019-09-06T03:37:20Z aeth: gxgx2: For your actual problem (arguments to a function) that's harder and any solution would be hackish. Maybe use a macro for that instead of possible?
2019-09-06T03:38:08Z aeth: (Afaik, the solutions would probably involve eval-ing or compiling each time you call the function, although that could be memoized.)
2019-09-06T03:40:12Z Bike: i mean practically speaking gxgx2 is probably just using them as functions
2019-09-06T03:40:54Z gxgx2: More or less attempting to, yeah
2019-09-06T03:41:05Z gxgx2: (logOp a b c)
2019-09-06T03:41:08Z gxgx2: is basically the actual use case
2019-09-06T03:41:15Z gxgx2: and I want to be able to pass in 'and or 'or for logOp
2019-09-06T03:42:31Z gxgx2: (if (equal logOp 'and) (and a b c) (or a b c))  works, but isn't a particularly nice solution and leads to a good bit of repeat code
2019-09-06T03:42:31Z Bike: and you're using logical operations, not bitwise, right?
2019-09-06T03:42:38Z gxgx2: Correct
2019-09-06T03:43:06Z Bike: (let ((foo (lambda (a b) (and a b)))) (if (funcall foo t nil) (print "Success") (print "Failure"))
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2019-09-06T03:46:39Z gxgx2: Hm. In my case, I know there will always be three arguments, so I could do (lambda (a b c) ...) but is there a more generalizable way that would mimic the syntax of and? Having to pass in a list would be non-ideal
2019-09-06T03:47:11Z Bike: (lambda (&rest args) (every #'identity args))
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2019-09-06T03:57:31Z gxgx2: Bike, Much thanks. I should be able to adapt that to my purpose and the weird dialect I'm using
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2019-09-06T04:02:38Z beach: gxgx2: Dialect of what?
2019-09-06T04:03:40Z gxgx2: Lisp. I'm using Cadence SKILL, so things don't fully translate in a one-to-one fashion
2019-09-06T04:05:39Z beach: I see.
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2019-09-06T04:34:37Z tourjin: if i wrote some functions in interpreter how I can see the codes I typed in ?
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2019-09-06T04:36:33Z beach: You shouldn't write code that way.  You should have one window with source code and on with the SLIME REPL.  Then you can send your code to the REPL with C-c C-c.  And it is typically not an interpreter.  It is an on-the-fly compiler.
2019-09-06T04:37:28Z aeth: In Emacs+SLIME, you do M-. and it'll take you to the location in the source file where it was defined.
2019-09-06T04:38:09Z tourjin: yes u said that yesterday. I'm still working on it. trying to install cygwin instead wsl.
2019-09-06T04:38:39Z aeth: https://github.com/portacle/portacle/
2019-09-06T04:38:49Z tourjin: for now I only can use interpreter on windows 10.
2019-09-06T04:39:03Z beach: tourjin: Using "u" to mean "you" is frowned upon in this channel.
2019-09-06T04:39:24Z beach: tourjin: It is not an interpreter.
2019-09-06T04:41:13Z tourjin: beach: i see. thanks. sbcl command line is not an interpreter?
2019-09-06T04:41:22Z beach: No.
2019-09-06T04:41:51Z beach: We call it a REPL.  Read-Eval-Print-Loop.  And it is an on-the-fly compiler as I said.
2019-09-06T04:42:45Z beach: tourjin: The difference is important, because people associate "interpreter" with "slow" and they think Common Lisp must be slow because it has a REPL.
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2019-09-06T04:43:59Z aeth: tourjin: Traditionally, Common Lisp was implemented with both an interpreter and a compiler, although sometimes the compiler is just a bytecode compiler. In the REPL (and a few other places), you would use the interpreter if you did (defun foo ()), but you could (compile 'foo) and then it would be compiled. Also, the files would be compiled.
2019-09-06T04:44:41Z aeth: tourjin: SBCL does have a separate interpreter iirc, but it is rarely used (and maybe it even got removed at this point) because by default its REPL actually compiles every line. This is good. It's fast enough that you don't notice the compilation, and you exercise the same codebase so there are no edge cases where the same code could do different things depending on if it was interpreted or compiled.
2019-09-06T04:44:49Z aeth: (Or even just be considerably faster if it was compiled vs. interpreted)
2019-09-06T04:45:31Z beach: aeth: That is not true: (compiled-function-p #'foo) => T
2019-09-06T04:45:59Z aeth: beach: In SBCL, yes.
2019-09-06T04:47:10Z aeth: Is that always the case?
2019-09-06T04:47:29Z beach: And that is what tourjin is using.  So I was trying very hard to tell tourjin a simplified version of why Common Lisp is not slow.  Now I am sure tourjin is completely confused.
2019-09-06T04:47:58Z aeth: Sorry if I wrote it in a confusing way. My first line was the "traditional expectation", i.e. what tourjin expects. My second line is what SBCL actually does.
2019-09-06T04:48:53Z aeth: My point was that the REPL probably used to be an interpreter in every original CL (although I'm not sure) back in the day when compilation was noticable, but it doesn't have to be anymore, and it isn't in SBCL. It just compiles every form.
2019-09-06T04:50:45Z tourjin: so you mean there is no way to see the function codes I typed in on sbcl * command line?
2019-09-06T04:53:32Z xantoz: no, because it only stores the compiled versions in RAM, iirc
2019-09-06T04:53:32Z aeth: I don't think that the source form gets saved with the function definition in the REPL, although I could be mistaken. Usually you start writing in the SLIME REPL and then after it gets big enough put it into a file, even a temporary file. And in SLIME you can just do a backwards history search by typing out (defun foo and then doing M-p (Alt+p)
2019-09-06T04:54:50Z aeth: If I had to get the definition, I would just do the backwards history search in SLIME, but that won't work in the bare terminal. Most people will use some feature-enhanced REPL
2019-09-06T04:55:36Z tourjin: ok i got it. probably that's why you told me do not use bare sbcl.
2019-09-06T04:57:42Z fengshaun: speaking of sbcl and repl, I have to figure out how to use slime efficiently
2019-09-06T04:58:21Z aeth: It's one of those things where you pick up a new command accidentally every now and then, or maybe set out to learn 10 in a short period, but you only ever scratch the surface.
2019-09-06T04:59:12Z fengshaun: thoughts so, I've just been sufficing to slime-eval-defun, but the repl is inconvenient, especially since I'm using evil-mode
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2019-09-06T06:28:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know if anyone here uses docker, but I've added an image with some useful functionality built in
2019-09-06T06:28:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you do docker run -ti fiddlerwoaroof/sbcl-static:1.5.6 you should get an sbcl repl
2019-09-06T06:29:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then something like this: (fwoar.repl-utils:github "Shinmera" "lquery") will clone a github repo into quicklisp's local-projects directory
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2019-09-06T06:32:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: This can be used with the new github actions feature to run unit-tests, etc. inside github fairly easily: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-todo-backend/runs/208444978
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2019-09-06T06:36:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you want to see what's going on "behind the scenes", the Docker setup is all here: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/sbcl-workspace
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2019-09-06T06:52:43Z jonatack: fiddlerwoaroof: nice
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2019-09-06T06:56:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, I put together a little demonstration of writing a web api Server in Common Lisp using ningle here: https://fiddlerwoaroof.github.io/cl-todo-backend/ it isn’t done yet, but I’ve been really pleased with .org-mode for this.
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2019-09-06T07:03:58Z jonatack: fiddlerwoaroof: Good to see. I've been moving to CL for my personal web things. Current one is to frequently pull down the GitHub data for the Bitcoin Core repo via their GraphQL API,
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2019-09-06T07:04:51Z jonatack: fiddlerwoaroof: archive it, ane tweet/toot selected items on twitter and mastodon to promote code review and reviewers.
2019-09-06T07:06:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool, I'm a big fan of Lisp for webby stuff
2019-09-06T07:08:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: The most "real" project I have in Lisp at the moment is a library for writing slack bots: I use it to track jenkins builds at work and a couple other things, and it's pretty fun to fiddle with every once in a while
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2019-09-06T07:09:36Z jonatack: Yes. Same. So far have been using dexador, quri, and jsown for the http, uri, and json things.
2019-09-06T07:09:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use drakma/puri/yason :)
2019-09-06T07:10:26Z jonatack: Haha interesting :)
2019-09-06T07:11:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: although, I probably should be using quri, because I think puri is slightly incorrect in some of its details
2019-09-06T07:12:55Z jonatack: I reckoned quri would play well with dexador since both are by the same author. Using it for money-critical applications in https://github.com/jonatack/cl-kraken
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2019-09-06T07:14:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's always interesting seeing what subset of CL someone uses
2019-09-06T07:14:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: I tend to a more CLOSy style then that code :)
2019-09-06T07:14:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: E.g. this: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-git
2019-09-06T07:15:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm hoping to eventually write a github-type service in CL, so I've been slowly implementing readers for git's file formats
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2019-09-06T07:15:57Z jonatack: Fukumachi's or mine? I'm a beginner in CL after a decade in both assembly and Ruby so open to suggestions.
2019-09-06T07:16:11Z jonatack: Haven't used CLOS yet.
2019-09-06T07:16:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just browsed through your code quickly
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2019-09-06T07:17:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you haven't read them yet, you should skim PCL's chapters on CLOS and the condition system: they've really influenced a lot of my thinking about the FP vs. OOP debates
2019-09-06T07:19:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, defining your application as a set of protocols (collections of inter-operating generic functions) seems to me to be a really useful way to structure an application
2019-09-06T07:20:29Z jonatack: Thanks. I have all the books and am going through them sporadically. PCL is great, skimmed those chapters but need to assimilate them.
2019-09-06T07:20:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: CLOS sort of flips the way Ruby/Java etc. do OOP by putting the emphasis on generic functions (roughly equivalent to methods in other object systems) and relatively de-emphasizing classses
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2019-09-06T07:22:22Z jonatack: Yes, the OOP in Ruby/Java is a bit ceremonial for my taste. But I came to OOP after imperative and functional. Generic funs look good.
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2019-09-06T07:24:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: My current hypothesis about a lot of the complaints about OOP is that they are really problems with the message-passing conception of OOP and how that makes methods second-class citizens
2019-09-06T07:25:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: A multimethod isn't a message passed to a class, but a way to specify how a set of classes interact.
2019-09-06T07:27:11Z jonatack: Multimethods look amazing...need to try using them. Thanks for the feedback and suggestions.
2019-09-06T07:28:06Z jonatack: My day job is C++ ATM so CL is a breath of fresh air :)
2019-09-06T07:28:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I mostly wrote CSS today, and a bit of Javascript
2019-09-06T07:28:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm lucky, though: every once in a while I get to work on our Clojure backend
2019-09-06T07:29:54Z jonatack: Git cloned cl-git and will look at the code.
2019-09-06T07:30:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just noticed the version on Github isn't my latest version
2019-09-06T07:30:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not quite ready to push it, but I've been cleaning up the structure a bit.
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2019-09-06T07:38:58Z jonatack: Sure, ping me when you push if you don't mind.
2019-09-06T07:39:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: k
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2019-09-06T08:10:32Z escew: hello, anyone here used lisp-binary library? i'm wondering what the best way to handle fixed-size null-terminated strings is
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2019-09-06T08:33:24Z beach: I can't figure out how to pass initial bindings to BT:MAKE-THREAD.
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2019-09-06T08:33:51Z beach: I could use some help.
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2019-09-06T08:36:33Z beach: And the manual doesn't explain the nature of the INITIAL-BINDINGS keyword argument.
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2019-09-06T08:38:33Z jdz: I seem to remember struggling a bit with this too.
2019-09-06T08:38:38Z jdz: So I made myself a macro.
2019-09-06T08:39:22Z jdz: Now I'm checking if it works.
2019-09-06T08:39:39Z saturn2: is there an advantage over just putting a let form inside the lambda?
2019-09-06T08:40:09Z beach: saturn2: What would you do otherwise?
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2019-09-06T08:41:21Z beach: Oh, and SBCL documentation for MAKE-THREAD has a keyword parameter EPHEMERAL but it is not explained.
2019-09-06T08:41:26Z beach: Oh, well.
2019-09-06T08:41:44Z saturn2: i mean INITIAL-BINDINGS seems superfluous
2019-09-06T08:42:01Z beach: Oh, I see.
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2019-09-06T08:42:45Z beach: You may be right.
2019-09-06T08:44:33Z beach: Yes, I think I can work with that.  Thanks.
2019-09-06T08:44:54Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, initial-bindings is an alist of dynamic variable names and their values, eg ((*standard-output* . <some kind of stream>))
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2019-09-06T08:45:12Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Thanks!
2019-09-06T08:45:57Z no-defun-allowed: I believe bt:*default-special-bindings* is appended to it too.
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2019-09-06T09:07:26Z d4ryus: hi, i have a question about format: How does it know how much indentation is needed when a form is printed with a linebreak? Example: (format t "~%test: ~a~%" (loop :for i :from 0 :to 100 :collect i))
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2019-09-06T09:09:21Z saturn2: it just counts how many characters have been printed so far on the current line
2019-09-06T09:10:30Z d4ryus: is there a format directive to do that?
2019-09-06T09:16:15Z jdz: beach: Also bordeaux-threads uses EVAL to evaluate values passed in the :initial-bindings list.  A very poor choice in my opinion.
2019-09-06T09:17:12Z no-defun-allowed: Crap, it is.
2019-09-06T09:21:02Z beach: jdz: That explains my problems.
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2019-09-06T09:22:15Z beach: jdz: Thanks.
2019-09-06T09:23:36Z jdz: beach: You are welcome!  Thank you too for bringing this up — I rewrote my code to not use the :initial-bindings parameter.
2019-09-06T09:24:05Z beach: Heh, I will avoid it as well.
2019-09-06T09:32:02Z saturn2: d4ryus: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cfa.htm
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2019-09-06T09:49:28Z d4ryus: saturn2: thank you!
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2019-09-06T10:08:32Z Lycurgus: the thing that passed 8th grade science test currently in the MSM is partially ACL
2019-09-06T10:12:31Z beach: Nice.
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2019-09-06T10:14:16Z no-defun-allowed: "Aristo"?
2019-09-06T10:15:17Z Lycurgus: yeah, and not sure it currently uses ACL but at somepoint it did. Allegro page on it has a stale link to that actual project.
2019-09-06T10:15:52Z no-defun-allowed: What I read claims it's the work of a neural network, and I can't find much about ACL, but then again "theorem proving" doesn't sound as nice to investors as deep learning.
2019-09-06T10:16:48Z Lycurgus: https://franz.com/success/customer_apps/artificial_intelligence/aristo.lhtml
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2019-09-06T12:43:20Z thijso: What is the correct way to park/pause/sleep a thread in bordeaux-threads? I have a scheduler thread that needs to perform some small tasks every x seconds (on the order of minutes). Is it okay/correct to just (sleep *timeout*) in that thread to get that behaviour? Or should I do it differently?
2019-09-06T12:43:58Z thijso: s/*timeout*/*idle-skip-time*/ or something
2019-09-06T12:44:09Z no-defun-allowed: That should work, as sleep will correspond to some syscall that puts the thread to sleep.
2019-09-06T12:44:32Z thijso: Ah, great. Thanks, no-defun-allowed
2019-09-06T12:44:40Z no-defun-allowed: (Or, if you have an implementation with green threads, it'll put that thread to sleep and the implementation's scheduler will leave it alone.)
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2019-09-06T12:56:49Z tourjin: if sbcl is compiler  rather than a interpreter. how can I make excutable out file ? should I add some option ?
2019-09-06T12:58:04Z no-defun-allowed: (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "executable-name" :compression 9 :executable t :toplevel #'function-that-starts-your-program)
2019-09-06T12:59:21Z no-defun-allowed: But SBCL is not a batch compiler, like a C compiler, rather it compiles incrementally as you feed it code. This just dumps out the memory to an executable.
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2019-09-06T13:00:44Z tourjin: that means I can't make excutable file?
2019-09-06T13:01:19Z Bike: you can, it's just not the same workflow as you'd do in C or whatever
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2019-09-06T13:10:11Z tourjin: sbcl my.lisp does'nt create an excutable file. it just run it. which option should I add?
2019-09-06T13:11:05Z Bike: no-defun-allowed told you what to do. you execute the sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die function.
2019-09-06T13:11:28Z Bike: please don't just ignore meaningful advice given to you
2019-09-06T13:11:51Z Bike: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Function-sb_002dext-save_002dlisp_002dand_002ddie has the documentation
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2019-09-06T13:12:47Z tourjin: thanks I just could'nt understand what sb-ext:save-lisp-anddie function.
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2019-09-06T15:45:09Z beach: tourjin: Whether a system uses a compiler or an interpreter is an issue that is orthogonal to whether it can produce executable files.  Don't confuse the two.  And you are not alone in this confusion, of course.
2019-09-06T15:46:14Z beach: tourjin: That is why I insisted on pointing it out to you.  Many people who see an interactive system such as Common Lisp, think that it must be interpreted, so they think it must be slow.  They are wrong.
2019-09-06T15:47:03Z Xach: learning new things helps keep your imagination informed about what is possible
2019-09-06T15:47:17Z beach: Very true.
2019-09-06T15:47:39Z beach: Xach: Did you manage to use SICL LOOP OK?
2019-09-06T15:49:28Z tourjin: thanks all. i'm still installing cygwin for two days. :-)
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2019-09-06T15:55:04Z Xach: beach: yes! and i forgot i had it loaded, and i loaded one of my own projects and instantly got an error about a clause ordering error
2019-09-06T15:55:26Z Xach: I thought SBCL had updated and broken my code until I remembered the truth
2019-09-06T15:56:15Z beach: Heh, great story.
2019-09-06T15:58:33Z Xach: i have a feeling that this will reveal a great many clause ordering issues
2019-09-06T15:58:51Z Xach: issues that would not have arisen if clisp rather than sbcl was so dominant
2019-09-06T16:02:20Z beach: Sure.
2019-09-06T16:02:48Z beach: People may not care of course.
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2019-09-06T16:32:26Z kpoeck: There is even a wrong loop use in Alexandria
2019-09-06T16:33:11Z kpoeck: I was tempted to try to use SICL Loop in clasp, but there are so many loop uses style symbolics out there
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2019-09-06T16:45:59Z Xach: kpoeck: ouch
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2019-09-06T16:58:03Z selwyn_: is the clisp implementation superior to that of sbcl in some aspects?
2019-09-06T16:58:17Z selwyn_: implementation of LOOP i mean
2019-09-06T16:58:21Z Xach: selwyn_: it has a more conformant loop
2019-09-06T16:58:29Z Xach: it rejects non-conforming loops
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2019-09-06T16:58:38Z LdBeth: P
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2019-09-06T18:36:35Z tourjin: this is not about lisp. but somebbody help me. how can I change color of xterm or rxvt?
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2019-09-06T18:41:38Z Oladon_work: tourjin: Why don't you ask in #xterm or #linux?
2019-09-06T18:41:54Z tourjin: ok thanks
2019-09-06T18:48:55Z pjb: tourjin: man xterm ; man rxvt
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2019-09-06T19:14:16Z momozor: Hi. What do you guys think on using some of the Scheme naming style. In particular, a-function for immutable one, a-destructive-function! for a mutable one, and what-is-this? for a predicate.
2019-09-06T19:14:51Z momozor: using this convention in Lisp*
2019-09-06T19:15:30Z momozor: will there be any significant semantic issues if one want to follow such convention in CL
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2019-09-06T19:16:59Z momozor: Like naming your variables or a function with the camelCase style can be harmful or useless in CL..
2019-09-06T19:17:24Z Bike: semantic? no. it's against general practice, though.
2019-09-06T19:20:03Z momozor: bike: I see. Thanks.
2019-09-06T19:21:42Z momozor: Also, I wonder if there is a general practice to distinguish between mutable and immutable functions in CL?
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2019-09-06T19:24:20Z Oladon_work: I tend to like using ! and ? in function names for those purposes in CL, if only to show off to everyone else who can't have non-alphanumeric symbols in in their languages.
2019-09-06T19:24:24Z aeth: momozor: I use ! and ? all of the time, although I'm kind of 50/50 on "?" vs. "-p" and it depends on the nature of the code (I'll never use "foop", because that's just confusing for humans and computers to parse). The other conventions from Scheme would be pretty unrecognizable.
2019-09-06T19:24:42Z Oladon_work: Yeah, I'm also about 50/50 on ? vs -p
2019-09-06T19:25:32Z aeth: As for ! I'm 50/50 on including it or not. It's more like... "is there an expectation for this to be pure?" It's a good way to name a variant, e.g. if you have matrix-* and matrix-*!
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2019-09-06T19:26:12Z Oladon_work: Agreed. I wouldn't name something "foo!" if there's no "foo"
2019-09-06T19:26:45Z aeth: Well, unless it was in an otherwise mostly/entirely pure file/package/project/whatever.
2019-09-06T19:26:45Z Bike: the usual destructive function thing is nfoo
2019-09-06T19:26:54Z Bike: not always great, but that's how it is
2019-09-06T19:27:13Z aeth: Bike: n stands for "non-consing" and a foo! can be consing, such as if it logged or memoized.
2019-09-06T19:27:29Z aeth: It's not a direct equivalent, and it's much uglier and more inconsistently/rarely used than "-p" anyway
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2019-09-06T19:28:51Z aeth: You also want a suffix rather than a prefix so that it sorts alphabetically next to its pure equivalent if it exists, like foo and foo!
2019-09-06T19:29:18Z Bike: i don't think what it stands for matters much
2019-09-06T19:30:58Z aeth: It's just that I personally think that ? and ! are separate naming issues because CL has a 100% direct ? equivalent in -p, while it has several, not-frequently-used, fairly-problematic (imo) equivalents to !
2019-09-06T19:31:39Z aeth: nfoo is just the most common, but I've seen others iirc. It would take me some time to look them up since it's not particularly searchable
2019-09-06T19:32:11Z aeth: perhaps foof is the next most common, but that has a specific meaning, and is for things like incf that you'd define with something like define-modify-macro
2019-09-06T19:33:41Z aeth: (and then there's getf, which doesn't mutate!)
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2019-09-06T20:32:57Z fengshaun: is there an equivalent of gdb for sbcl?
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2019-09-06T20:33:43Z fengshaun: the errors seem cryptic and (trace) doesn't seem to do anything (it just prints the invocation of the function)
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2019-09-06T20:34:43Z jackdaniel: in Common Lisp you may recompile a function in question to have explicit break in it
2019-09-06T20:34:49Z jackdaniel: there is also step functionality
2019-09-06T20:35:01Z fengshaun: how do I use the step functionality?
2019-09-06T20:35:07Z jackdaniel: moreover trace allows you to specify an action
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2019-09-06T20:35:43Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_step.htm
2019-09-06T20:35:50Z fengshaun: any recommended debugging guides?
2019-09-06T20:36:24Z jackdaniel: (specifying actions in trace is implementation-dependent, so you'd need to refer to sbcl manual)
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2019-09-06T20:37:31Z jackdaniel: if you have a function you want to check, you may modify it and call interactively to see what's going on
2019-09-06T20:37:50Z jackdaniel: having IDE like slime helps a lot with that
2019-09-06T20:38:31Z jackdaniel: another thing is that you probably want to set speed 1 / debug 3 optimization options before compiling the code so sldb backtraces are not crippled
2019-09-06T20:39:19Z edgar-rft: fengshaun: -> https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/debugging.html
2019-09-06T20:39:19Z edgar-rft: and -> https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Debugger.html
2019-09-06T20:39:21Z jackdaniel: spreading couple of print statements to spit to *debug-io* is always an option (pretty effective one)
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2019-09-06T20:40:06Z fengshaun: jackdaniel, edgar-rft: thanks
2019-09-06T20:40:25Z fengshaun: slowly learning to use slime
2019-09-06T20:41:14Z edgar-rft: Learning Lisp takes some time but it's 100% worth it :-)
2019-09-06T20:42:02Z fengshaun: yea, it's been fun. a little different from C, which I'm used to.
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2019-09-07T01:50:45Z fade: o/
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2019-09-07T04:31:26Z jack-thomas: Hi, so in Slime, I'm looking at the debug backtrace and I toggle details. This is what I see. " 0: (UIOP/RUN-PROGRAM:RUN-PROGRAM "/bin/bash" :INPUT #<SB-IMPL::STRING-INPUT-STREAM {1003F059A3}> :OUTPUT #<SB-IMPL::STRING-OUTPUT-STREAM {1003F05B43}> :ERROR-OUTPUT #<SB-IMPL::STRING-OUTPUT-STREAM {1003F..     Locals: SB-DEBUG::ARG-0 = "/bin/bash"    SB-DEBUG::MORE = (:INPUT #<SB-IMPL::STRING-INPUT-STREAM {1003F059A3}> :OUTPUT
2019-09-07T04:31:27Z jack-thomas: #<SB-IMPL::STRING-OUTPUT-STREAM {1003F05B43}> :ERROR-OUTPUT #<SB-IMPL::STRING-OUTPUT-STREAM {1003F05B43}> ...)"    (New lines replaced with 4 spaces.) Any idea how to see the rest of those details?
2019-09-07T04:32:43Z jack-thomas: I can post a pic if that will help. I'm not seeing anything in the slime documentation
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2019-09-07T04:57:02Z no-defun-allowed: Anything in specific, say, more stack frames?
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2019-09-07T05:23:55Z jack-thomas: no-defun-allowed: No, do you notice how I can only see part of the function call? The sexp ends with ...
2019-09-07T05:24:14Z jack-thomas: I can't find how to see the rest of it.
2019-09-07T05:25:21Z aeth: try clicking on it? just a guess
2019-09-07T05:25:24Z no-defun-allowed: You could click on sb-debug::more, which will show it in the inspector.
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2019-09-07T06:02:10Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-09-07T06:04:08Z beach: fengshaun: Some people, including me, are working on creating a debugger worthy of the name for Common Lisp.
2019-09-07T06:06:23Z cink: and nyef?
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2019-09-07T06:07:46Z thijso: and what would such a beast give us, beach ?
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2019-09-07T06:11:07Z stylewarning: This is a weak point I have with lisp... files. How can I make a file shorter without overwriting it? Something like truncating it.
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2019-09-07T06:21:23Z Shinmera: You can't, not in ANSI anyway.
2019-09-07T06:21:56Z stylewarning: Didn't think so.
2019-09-07T06:22:44Z Shinmera: What do you hope to do by truncating the file anyway?
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2019-09-07T06:23:41Z stylewarning: Shinmera: I'm not sure, I'm experimenting around with how I want to manage the use of files as temporary (swap-like) storage of data
2019-09-07T06:24:40Z Shinmera: I'd keep the file size constant and just have a first field in the file that denotes the allocated bytes in the file.
2019-09-07T06:26:42Z beach: thijso: Stepping, break points, examining data, etc.
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2019-09-07T06:34:50Z stylewarning: beach: what about displaying in the backtrace where dynamic bindings or restarts are installed
2019-09-07T06:35:36Z beach: Sure, why not.
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2019-09-07T06:56:40Z fengshaun: beach, ooh ice
2019-09-07T06:56:42Z fengshaun: nice*
2019-09-07T07:02:32Z thijso: sounds good, beach
2019-09-07T07:02:44Z thijso: when will we have it? *grin*
2019-09-07T07:04:14Z beach: Don't hold your breath.  It will require support from the Common Lisp implementation, and maintainers of implementations other than SICL will probably be reluctant to adding such support.
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2019-09-07T07:56:33Z seok: When writing a long function, do you write the functions in parts and assemble them finally for readability, or do you just write the long form for shorter code?
2019-09-07T07:56:41Z seok: what do you guys do
2019-09-07T07:57:46Z no-defun-allowed: You should avoid writing long functions, so writing it in parts is ideal.
2019-09-07T08:00:59Z no-defun-allowed: There's a joke that you shouldn't ever write a function longer than your head, but in Lisp, you should probably aim for shorter.
2019-09-07T08:03:39Z seok: Sounds good. Guess I am re-writing mine
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2019-09-07T08:59:49Z no-defun-allowed: Are there any benchmarks on how using type tagged pointers instead of consing up fixnums in the heap perform in (some kind of Lisp)?
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2019-09-07T09:00:10Z no-defun-allowed: I know the former is much, much better, but I'm trying to estimate by how much.
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2019-09-07T09:03:15Z Shinmera: Tagging and untagging is practically free on the CPU, whereas the rest requires constant memory access. So the benchmark is, well, your memory bandwidth and cache.
2019-09-07T09:03:41Z Shinmera: Unless I'm misunderstanding what exactly it is you want to benchmark.
2019-09-07T09:03:45Z no-defun-allowed: Eh, maybe I can make something up with structures and fixnums in SBCL.
2019-09-07T09:04:36Z no-defun-allowed: I have a bytecode Lisp interpreter in CL and I'm looking at another bytecode interpreter in C, and wondering how mine is 10x faster on the only "benchmark" they have provided.
2019-09-07T09:06:37Z Shinmera: Did you compare on your own machine?
2019-09-07T09:06:44Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
2019-09-07T09:07:19Z Shinmera: My only explanation is that writing slow code is easy in any language :)
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2019-09-07T09:08:03Z no-defun-allowed: My guess is that my environment model (a list of vectors) is faster than theirs (a hash table of some kind, I am not very good at reading C), and that they use heap-allocated numbers, whereas I snarf SBCL's fixnums.
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2019-09-07T09:10:00Z no-defun-allowed: The former has a 3x or so speed increase, and I'm about to test the latter.
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2019-09-07T09:15:53Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL is too clever for my benchmarks, but there's a factor 14x there.
2019-09-07T09:20:13Z jonatack: seok: i'm not sure how lispy this is, but one advantage to me of breaking a long function into shorter ones is that you can unit test them.
2019-09-07T09:20:28Z seok: Yeah that sure is
2019-09-07T09:20:43Z jonatack: beach: sounds great
2019-09-07T09:21:40Z beach: jonatack: Thanks.  Very preliminary stuff at metamodular.com/clordane.mp4
2019-09-07T09:25:06Z jonatack: beach: nice. Will try SICL and Cleavir.
2019-09-07T09:25:19Z beach: Please don't.
2019-09-07T09:25:27Z jonatack: ah?
2019-09-07T09:25:56Z beach: Cleavir can only be used to implement a Common Lisp compiler, and SICL is not in a state to be used by a general audience.
2019-09-07T09:26:32Z jonatack: Ok. Standby for now then.
2019-09-07T09:26:39Z beach: Yeah.
2019-09-07T09:26:47Z beach: But I have set an objective to have a SICL executable by the end of the year.
2019-09-07T09:27:05Z ck_: hey, that's news to me. A date! :)
2019-09-07T09:27:28Z beach: Heh.
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2019-09-07T09:29:05Z thijso: So I'm wondering... those of you using emacs as your editor, do you just use it's default indenting for CL code? Or are there packages (or settings) that make it better?
2019-09-07T09:30:40Z no-defun-allowed: Using the slime-indentation contrib for SLIME guarantees you don't get odd looks when you show your code to #lisp.
2019-09-07T09:32:03Z no-defun-allowed: The default Emacs indentation is okay, but slime-indentation makes it work much better. I think LOOP is the best example of the differences between them.
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2019-09-07T09:37:21Z jackdaniel: loop indentation proposed by slime is awful
2019-09-07T09:38:05Z beach: How so?
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2019-09-07T09:38:33Z jackdaniel: sorry, I meant: proposed by emacs
2019-09-07T09:38:48Z jackdaniel: (without slime contrib)
2019-09-07T09:38:55Z beach: Indeed.
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2019-09-07T10:41:37Z thijso: Ah, thanks. I'll look into that.
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2019-09-07T11:40:07Z thijso: So if I have a part of my lisp code light up in red in emacs, it means there's something wrong, right? Apart from (error "whatever") where 'error' is red, I mean?
2019-09-07T11:40:31Z thijso: Is there a way to have emacs tell me more about _what_ is wrong? Or slime, maybe?
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2019-09-07T11:42:49Z selwyn_: emacs may only be complaining about how you have laid out your code on the page
2019-09-07T11:43:39Z no-defun-allowed: If you write (foo (bar baz <Newline> quux) bloop), Emacs will highlight bloop red because it's in a silly spot.
2019-09-07T11:43:43Z selwyn_: yes
2019-09-07T11:44:31Z selwyn_: this is valid code written in bad style
2019-09-07T12:00:50Z thijso: Ah, ok...
2019-09-07T12:02:12Z thijso: Uhm. But what is wrong with (loop named something<newline>do<newline>(function-called) .. ? 'function-called' is marked red here, which I find a little strange. Is it the 'do'?
2019-09-07T12:03:06Z White_Flame: if your function name starts with "assert" it also changes red like "error" does
2019-09-07T12:03:17Z thijso: Yeah. It doesn't.
2019-09-07T12:03:23Z White_Flame: can you post the actual code?
2019-09-07T12:03:34Z White_Flame: and is it red font, or a red underline?
2019-09-07T12:03:44Z thijso: It looks like something else is going on. Is the function name "check-schedule" something special? It lights up anywhere I put it in my code...
2019-09-07T12:03:49Z thijso: red font
2019-09-07T12:04:00Z White_Flame: yeah, that's the same as assert then
2019-09-07T12:04:15Z thijso: Oh, wait. Is it the check- prefix?
2019-09-07T12:04:22Z White_Flame: some assumption on naming, which I personally find annoying
2019-09-07T12:04:49Z thijso: Yeah, looks like it. If I rename it to "run-check-schedule" it's fine.
2019-09-07T12:05:19Z White_Flame: and "do-" highlights purple, like builtins
2019-09-07T12:05:23Z thijso: Is there somewhere I can change those assumptions? I'm fine with 'assert' and 'error', but 'check-' not so much
2019-09-07T12:05:39Z thijso: exactly, White_Flame. Don't really like that one either.
2019-09-07T12:06:03Z White_Flame: I haven't mucked with it personally.  I tend to leave my environment alone
2019-09-07T12:06:35Z thijso: Hah. I don't. I customize the bleep out of it.
2019-09-07T12:07:05Z thijso: Of course, I'm running a clfswm window manager on sbcl on funtoo, so that might explain some things...
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2019-09-07T14:49:15Z drmeister: With slime - does anyone know how to shut down this message?
2019-09-07T14:49:22Z drmeister: "Compilation failed. Load fasl file anyway?"
2019-09-07T14:50:05Z drmeister: It's like my damn bank machine eternally asking me if I want to use English.
2019-09-07T14:52:46Z beach: That's stupid.  Here in Europe, the machine switches to the official language of the country where the card was issued.
2019-09-07T14:53:18Z beach: Well, maybe not ATMs.  I don't know that.  But when you pay in a store with a card for instance.
2019-09-07T14:53:44Z Bike: the US doesn't have an official language and we have many people who would prefer languages other than english. melting pot and all.
2019-09-07T14:54:09Z beach: True.
2019-09-07T14:54:17Z Bike: of course it's pretty annoying when the ATM says it will remember your preference and then asks you the exact same question next time
2019-09-07T14:55:09Z beach: Heh.
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2019-09-07T16:29:35Z flip214: Bike: would the ATM store the preference locally, or put it on your card's EEPROM?
2019-09-07T16:31:24Z p_l: it can try, but not get allowed
2019-09-07T16:32:22Z flip214: well, depending on the card format any user could use unused space for their own files...
2019-09-07T16:37:00Z p_l: flip214: ATM cards typically don't expose storage interface
2019-09-07T16:38:05Z p_l: when you put the card in, the ATM will query it for list of applications, then select from it the few that it supports (for example, Mastercard or Visa), then talk to that specific application
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2019-09-07T16:57:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: thijso: it's in the contrib slime-fontifying-fu
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2019-09-07T17:00:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/contrib/slime-fontifying-fu.el#L9-L13
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2019-09-07T18:29:23Z jeosol: Does cl-mop:deep-copy of an object creates a complete new copy even for slots that are class objects?
2019-09-07T18:30:11Z jeosol: I am trying to create a new fresh object and modify one of the slot objects. Or what is a better way to do this.
2019-09-07T18:30:32Z Lycurgus: (in sbcl)
2019-09-07T18:31:00Z jeosol: Yeah in SBCL
2019-09-07T18:31:31Z jeosol: I have used cl-mop:deep-copy, I changed the inner slot object and when printed, they have the same value, so I am not doing something right
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2019-09-07T18:35:09Z Bike: what's cl-mop?
2019-09-07T18:35:42Z Bike: some library, i see
2019-09-07T18:36:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's sort of badly named, because it looks "official"
2019-09-07T18:36:35Z Bike: it looks like it copies values of class slots, but that just means changing the value of the class slot, which is after all shared
2019-09-07T18:36:50Z Bike: not sure what you mean by "slots that are class objects"
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2019-09-07T18:37:25Z pjb: Bike: people have missing neurons, this is why they miss words in their output flows.
2019-09-07T18:37:59Z pjb:  "slots that are BOUND TO objects THAT ARE INSTANCES OF SOME CLOS class"
2019-09-07T18:38:09Z jeosol: Bike: I apologize for the lack of clarity. I mean have another object that is a slot in the outer one.
2019-09-07T18:38:27Z jeosol: pjb: thanks. Thats a better explanation
2019-09-07T18:38:34Z pjb: jeosol: all lisp values are lisp objects, or objects.
2019-09-07T18:38:51Z pjb: Lisp is purely OO :-)
2019-09-07T18:39:22Z Bike: well, it looks like deep-copy is properly recursive for objects
2019-09-07T18:39:27Z Bike: but not for sequences or lists or structures
2019-09-07T18:39:43Z pjb: clhs copy-tree
2019-09-07T18:39:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cp_tre.htm
2019-09-07T18:39:52Z pjb: for conses.
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2019-09-07T18:42:59Z Bike: i mean, deep-copy calls copy-tree, but that won't copy the elements in the tree, just the conses
2019-09-07T18:43:08Z Bike: this is a pretty big flaw in the library
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2019-09-07T18:50:33Z jeosol: I see. I was able to get it fixed by still performing a separate copy of the slots. I have used this approach (two step copy) in the past to get the objects to be different  and not sure if there is a better way.
2019-09-07T18:51:42Z Bike: why do you need the objects to be distinct?
2019-09-07T18:51:49Z jeosol: Adding :identity t to (print-unreadable-object is a nice debug feature
2019-09-07T18:52:13Z jeosol: I am performing distributed calls, so I create the copies and do parallel calls.
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2019-09-07T18:53:35Z Bike: and what, the calls alter the objects in different ways?
2019-09-07T18:53:38Z jeosol: I am trying to do sensitivity analyses by changing some slots (2 or more) in the parent object and can do by a function and submit in parallel
2019-09-07T18:53:52Z Bike: ic
2019-09-07T18:54:11Z jeosol: Once I change the objects, I use it to create a deck for another black box function (external physics simulator)
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2019-09-07T18:55:19Z jeosol: each one writes a different input deck when evaluated. I could do it sequentially on the same object, but trying to get the results faster by doing parallel calls.
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2019-09-07T18:57:34Z thijso: thanks, fiddlerwoaroof
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2019-09-07T19:30:42Z seok17: how can I change the :test for a hash-table?
2019-09-07T19:30:54Z seok17: (setf (hash-table-test..)) doesn't work
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2019-09-07T19:34:37Z Bike: seok17: can't
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2019-09-07T19:49:28Z thijso: seok17: (make-hash-table :test 'equal) ?
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2019-09-07T19:51:22Z seok17: thijso: hashtables are already there
2019-09-07T19:52:13Z Bike: you cannot change the test of an existing table
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2019-09-07T20:05:15Z thijso: Ah, ok. Yeah, then you're out of luck. Only way I see is to copy into a newly created hashtable with the correct test, but that is probably quite expensive...
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2019-09-07T20:08:17Z seok17: hm quite inconvenient since the default eq does not work with string keys
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2019-09-07T20:10:43Z pjb: seok17: and so, you can't imagine a way to do it?
2019-09-07T20:10:43Z aeth: I think the general expectation is to work with symbols/keywords if possible, where string= hash tables would mostly be for keys for things based on user input... so, yes, it's inconvenient, but not as commonly needed as it is in many other languages
2019-09-07T20:11:36Z seok17: most json libraries return objects as hash with string keys
2019-09-07T20:11:42Z jmercouris: thoughts on cl-annot?
2019-09-07T20:11:47Z aeth: Depending on what you'd need, you could make a make-hash-table* that defaults to string= (or equal or whatever), or a copy-hash-table... but alexandria has the latter.
2019-09-07T20:12:06Z pjb: seok17: (defun change-hash-table-test (old new-test) (let ((new (make-hash-table :test new-test :size (hash-table-count old)))) (maphash (lambda (k v) (setf (gethash k new) v)) old) new))
2019-09-07T20:12:52Z aeth: It looks like alexandria:copy-hash-table takes a keyword argument called test where if it's defined it will change what the test is (and if it isn't, it keeps the old test). So you could turn default hash-tables into #'equal hash tables that will also work on strings
2019-09-07T20:13:09Z aeth: (alexandria:copy-hash-table foo :test #'equal)
2019-09-07T20:14:10Z aeth: You could also test for EQUAL or STRING= or EQUALP or STRING-EQUAL being used in the HASH-TABLE-TEST first to save a copy.
2019-09-07T20:14:18Z aeth: s/save a copy/save yourself from having to do a copy/
2019-09-07T20:14:21Z pjb: (let ((old (make-hash-table))) (setf (gethash "foo" old) 42 (gethash (copy-seq "foo") old) 1) (hash-table-keys (change-hash-table-test old 'equal))) #| --> ("foo") |#
2019-09-07T20:15:25Z pjb: The only valid values for test is eq equal and equalp; not string= or string-equal!
2019-09-07T20:16:10Z aeth: weird
2019-09-07T20:16:21Z aeth: I would have assumed that those two would be supported
2019-09-07T20:16:35Z aeth: I guess CL predates strings being so commonplace in hash tables
2019-09-07T20:16:52Z pjb: aeth: string= and string-equal don't compare strings!
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2019-09-07T20:21:01Z Bike: the library encodes to a hash table with string keys but eq test? really?
2019-09-07T20:22:21Z Bike: looks to me like cl-json and yason both do an equal hash table
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2019-09-07T22:27:09Z mrcode_: what's the right way to specialize a method on an array of unsigned-byte vs a string ?
2019-09-07T22:29:12Z Xach: mrcode_: STRING is a system class, so that will get you a method that acts only on strings. but there isn't anything specific for an unsigned-byte array.
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2019-09-07T22:30:51Z mrcode_: Xach: does this mean it's impossible to specialize a method for a (simple-array character *) vs (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) *) ?
2019-09-07T22:34:34Z Xach: mrcode_: methods specialize on classes, not types.
2019-09-07T22:34:47Z Xach: string is a system class, as is array, but (simple-array ub8 *) is not.
2019-09-07T22:35:04Z mrcode_: ahh..
2019-09-07T22:35:17Z mrcode_: ok. makes sense. i knew i was missing something. thanks Xach
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2019-09-07T22:47:39Z mrcode_: hmm, I guess a quick followup to that, how does one specialize a method on an array in general ?
2019-09-07T22:47:52Z mrcode_: adding (arg array) doesn't work
2019-09-07T22:47:54Z mrcode_: (arg string) does
2019-09-07T22:51:14Z pjb: mrcode_: the right way to do that is to define two custom classes, one that wraps the array of unsigned-byte and the other a string, and to specialize on those classes.
2019-09-07T22:53:15Z pjb: Of course, you can also specialize on the classes returned there, or rather, one of their superclasses, since the result is somewhat implementation dependent or too restrictive: (values (class-name (class-of (make-array 3 :element-type 'unsigned-byte))) (class-name (class-of (make-string 3 :element-type 'character)))) #| --> simple-vector ; simple-base-string |#
2019-09-07T22:54:03Z pjb: mrcode_: array is definitely a system class, you can specialize on it. (find-class 'array) #| --> #<built-in-class array> |#
2019-09-07T22:54:57Z pjb: mrcode_: defining wrapping classes would have to be done, assuming you don't want your method to dispatch for arrays of signed-byte or arrays of (unsigned-byte 8), say…
2019-09-07T22:56:11Z Xach: array is a system class and should work usually.
2019-09-07T22:56:39Z pjb: Yes; it's just that it's too general, in general.
2019-09-07T22:57:19Z mrcode_: Xach: it works for me now, after a fresh image start
2019-09-07T22:57:24Z mrcode_: pjb: thanks for the suggestion
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2019-09-07T23:10:36Z no-defun-allowed: How should I go about reading :report :flat reports from sb-sprof?
2019-09-07T23:11:25Z no-defun-allowed: I think the "self" column is how many samples have called that function last, and "total" is how many have that function anywhere on the stack.
2019-09-07T23:17:47Z no-defun-allowed: But then that would mean my interpreter is in the dispatch loop (as opposed to running some code) 53% of the time, which I don't believe.
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2019-09-07T23:23:40Z ck_: That'll be the 's' part in sprof. Have you tried the non-statistical profiler?
2019-09-07T23:27:30Z no-defun-allowed: Could try that. My opcodes are lambda functions and thus I can't name them to trace, but I'm interested to see if that 53% number is anything near realistic.
2019-09-07T23:29:42Z no-defun-allowed: Or that could be possible, since the loop does quite a few checks to limit conses and cycles and establishes a restart too.
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2019-09-07T23:32:27Z no-defun-allowed: Yep, it was that restart all along. I guess I will have to split up this loop into a setup part, then a run part, so that it's possible to continue running the interpreter when we raise a signal for some external data.
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2019-09-08T00:05:59Z analogue: Evening!
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2019-09-08T00:54:43Z tourjin: i don't see sbcl in cygwin setup. should I install it from out of setup for cygwin?
2019-09-08T00:55:42Z no-defun-allowed: http://sbcl.org/platform-table.html has a Windows installer for you.
2019-09-08T01:02:28Z DrDuck: Can I expect Winston and Horn's code from their 'Lisp' book to compile even though the book was published in '89?
2019-09-08T01:02:38Z tourjin: cygwin and windows10 considered same?
2019-09-08T01:03:25Z Bike: DrDuck: if it doesn't have any extensions it's pretty likely to work or mostly work
2019-09-08T01:08:28Z DrDuck: Can you tell Common Lisp to manually garbage collect an object?
2019-09-08T01:09:00Z Bike: no, the garbage collector is not standard. also, if you can refer to an object and pass it to such a function, it's not garbage
2019-09-08T01:09:02Z no-defun-allowed: Well, if there was some function for it, calling it would create a reference to that object, so no.
2019-09-08T01:09:31Z no-defun-allowed: But (trivial-garbage:gc :full t) will do a full garbage collection (if you load the trivial-garbage system).
2019-09-08T01:11:15Z DrDuck: :(
2019-09-08T01:11:53Z Bike: what are you trying to do?
2019-09-08T01:12:41Z no-defun-allowed: It would be terribly inefficient to garbage collect only one object, when a significant proportion of the heap is scanned.
2019-09-08T01:14:39Z DrDuck: i want to force the garbage collector to clear up some memory explicitly when i tell it to
2019-09-08T01:15:14Z Bike: well, as ddefun said, the implementation usually has a hook to run the collector manually
2019-09-08T01:15:20Z Bike: but are you running out of memory or something?
2019-09-08T01:15:22Z no-defun-allowed: How would you pick what memory to clear?
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2019-09-08T01:15:40Z DrDuck: just want to experiment with it
2019-09-08T01:16:27Z Bike: in a garbage collected system memory is not really a concern directly, so you should only need to worry about it if you need to tune performance or the like
2019-09-08T01:16:32Z Bike: unlike C where it's core to the semantics
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2019-09-08T01:16:59Z Bike: especially, you can't do something like (free x) (print x) like you can in C (i mean, it's invalid, but you can write it)
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2019-09-08T01:51:35Z p_l: DrDuck: with automatic memory management, usually the only thing you can do is to explicitly trigger the GC, but not tell it to collect something. There are ways to handle that, though, like object caches and sometimes there are ways to get manual memory control
2019-09-08T01:52:27Z analogue: Hey all!
2019-09-08T01:52:30Z White_Flame: there's also dynamic-extent, which basically uses stack storage
2019-09-08T01:52:36Z analogue: I'm looking into a Lisp family language to learn after using Racket some...
2019-09-08T01:53:20Z p_l: yeah, dynamic-extent hints to compiler that the specified binding will have values that live only within scope
2019-09-08T01:53:21Z analogue: What tends to be most used in industry, if anyone has a reccomendation?
2019-09-08T01:53:57Z no-defun-allowed: This is #lisp, we do Common Lisp here, so CL is most used here. (:
2019-09-08T01:54:23Z p_l: analogue: "industry" is notoriously bad guideline in Lisp case. Most visible popular stuff? Clojure and Racket. Hidden in weird places doing important work? Common Lisp and helluva lot of Scheme. With occassional throwback to pre-ZetaLisp days
2019-09-08T01:55:39Z p_l: and by helluva lot of scheme I mean "significant portion of PS3 and PS4 consoles got to run a heavily Scheme-d software"
2019-09-08T01:56:00Z analogue: Yeah, it's not particularly popular in general development stuff it seems
2019-09-08T01:56:06Z analogue: I liked using racket in  a class I took
2019-09-08T01:56:24Z no-defun-allowed: Did you know...tinyscheme is used in macOS access control of some sort I forgot the name of?
2019-09-08T01:56:27Z analogue: small languages are my fave though
2019-09-08T01:56:31Z analogue: I see, thanks!
2019-09-08T01:56:46Z p_l: analogue: the general guideline is that if you want to use Lisp (any lisp), take a task where nobody except you cares about language choice
2019-09-08T01:57:24Z p_l: that's surprisingly common in enterprise software, where they pay you to solve a problem, and language is last thing they are going to inquire on so long as it works on their systems
2019-09-08T01:57:39Z analogue: Lol
2019-09-08T01:57:41Z p_l: macOS sandbox, iirc, uses Scheme48 in decision engine
2019-09-08T01:57:43Z analogue: Good to know!
2019-09-08T01:58:00Z analogue: Yeah, I think it seems most useful in research type cases
2019-09-08T01:58:18Z p_l: analogue: drew doesn't show up here much anymore, but he talked about earning money mainly by making intranet web apps for various companies
2019-09-08T01:58:36Z p_l: the companies didn't ask him to program in specific language, they asked him to solve a problem
2019-09-08T01:59:01Z analogue: I see
2019-09-08T01:59:03Z p_l: and sometimes you might even end up building a new language to fit their requirements, where Lisp makes a lot of things easier :)
2019-09-08T01:59:11Z analogue: Contract work like tat appeals to me :)
2019-09-08T01:59:11Z p_l once did, using Blockly as base
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2019-09-08T01:59:38Z analogue: Most of my experience has been with medium sized older C++ codebases though so far
2019-09-08T02:00:20Z p_l: analogue: one use case you might have is to introduce dynamic programming by end user to such a codebase
2019-09-08T02:00:34Z p_l: ECL makes it probably even easier than most
2019-09-08T02:01:30Z p_l: the aforementioned blockly use case? we pitched to client that they would be able to change processing equations/rules without having a java & PL/SQL expert come and recompile the program
2019-09-08T02:04:04Z analogue: What differences are there between the dialects of Common Lisp?
2019-09-08T02:04:30Z analogue: I see, that's pretty cool!
2019-09-08T02:04:36Z analogue: I'm not familiar with blockly
2019-09-08T02:04:43Z no-defun-allowed: There is only one Common Lisp, any differences are implementations.
2019-09-08T02:04:49Z analogue: Gotcha
2019-09-08T02:05:03Z p_l: well, with exception of Allegro's "modern mode" (lowercase, case-preserving), all important implementations comply with ANSI CL standard
2019-09-08T02:05:09Z no-defun-allowed: The differences between those implementations include compilers and extensions (like exposing GC functions, FFI, threads, etc)
2019-09-08T02:05:13Z p_l: the differences are in compiler capabilities, tooling, etc.
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2019-09-08T02:05:46Z p_l: LW for example has pretty nice GUI library and AFAIK splendid delivery options (plus stuff like WHO-CALLS)
2019-09-08T02:06:18Z ck_: what's special about lispworks who-calls?
2019-09-08T02:06:24Z analogue: Scheme appeals to me the most I think, would you say it is much to transition between the languages?
2019-09-08T02:06:24Z p_l: ck_: it exists :>
2019-09-08T02:06:40Z ck_: p_l: but does it work differently than the slime xref equivalent?
2019-09-08T02:07:27Z p_l: analogue: significant differences, IMO. CL has non-hygienic macros and doesn't care that much about text representation of code. ANSI CL is also much bigger standard by itself and thus a lot of things that are "every implementation is different" in Scheme are boringly standard in CL
2019-09-08T02:07:51Z p_l: ck_: iirc, SLIME's doesn't support querying who call's function at point on all implementations
2019-09-08T02:08:11Z analogue: I see
2019-09-08T02:08:37Z analogue: Would you have any book reccomendations?
2019-09-08T02:08:51Z p_l: minion: tell analogue about pcl
2019-09-08T02:08:52Z minion: analogue: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2019-09-08T02:08:56Z ck_: p_l: sure. I just wondered why you singled out the lispworks functionality -- perhaps because it works slightly differently or better.
2019-09-08T02:08:57Z analogue: on CL or Scheme that is?
2019-09-08T02:09:01Z p_l: minion: tell analogue about paip
2019-09-08T02:09:01Z minion: analogue: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2019-09-08T02:09:24Z p_l: analogue: I don't have much on scheme, but "How to Design Programs" might be of interest
2019-09-08T02:09:46Z analogue: Oh I was just looking through PCL!
2019-09-08T02:09:50Z p_l: and of course the classic (light on Scheme, heavy on Computer Science) "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs"
2019-09-08T02:11:28Z analogue: Actually, my AI class is using norvig's text
2019-09-08T02:11:34Z analogue: I'm sure that will pair well!
2019-09-08T02:11:52Z analogue: Got it
2019-09-08T02:11:59Z analogue: Thanks, p_l!
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2019-09-08T02:58:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-08T07:17:16Z thijso: morning
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2019-09-08T07:25:23Z beach: Hello thijso.
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2019-09-08T09:30:40Z momozor: Hi, can I get some feedback of the code in https://github.com/momozor/Saurna/blob/master/src/main.lisp.
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2019-09-08T11:36:35Z puchacz: hi, what's the recommended library that implements curve fitting?
2019-09-08T11:37:16Z puchacz: for example, for exponential decay I can write in Mathematica: FindFit[points, a Exp[-x b], {a, b}, x]
2019-09-08T11:37:30Z puchacz: and it t tells me {a -> 1.00123, b -> 0.0365592}
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2019-09-08T11:59:50Z thijso: Shinmera: what implementations have you tested verbose on? On SBCL my code runs without errors, but on ECL it looks like verbose is messing with other threads, namely a thread running a usocket UDP server. After a few seconds that thread dies with an unknown error...
2019-09-08T12:00:28Z thijso: And this is only when adding in verbose for logging. Without it, the code works on ECL as expected.
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2019-09-08T12:00:51Z Shinmera: Hmm.
2019-09-08T12:01:21Z Shinmera: first I hear of this. Do you have any information beyond that it crashes?
2019-09-08T12:02:43Z thijso: Well, the error I get is kinda weird as well: "The condition Not a condition type: NIL occurred with errno: 0." and "  [Condition of type USOCKET:UNKNOWN-ERROR]"
2019-09-08T12:02:46Z Shinmera: Verbose does use a background thread to do the logging in. ECL might not like it if it's printing from there and from another thread at the same time.
2019-09-08T12:03:03Z Shinmera: But beyond that I don't know.
2019-09-08T12:03:11Z thijso: Hmm...
2019-09-08T12:03:38Z thijso: Well, now the question becomes, do I start digging, or give up and just do my own debug logging... ;)
2019-09-08T12:04:16Z thijso: Hey... the main thread was still running and now it says: "Attempted to recursively lock #<lock (nonrecursive) "MESSAGE-LOCK" 0x55a7b1b55360> which is already owned by #<process "verbose-thread" 0x55a7b0a2b400>
2019-09-08T12:04:31Z Shinmera: Well, that's more interesting.
2019-09-08T12:04:32Z thijso: I've seen that one before, too
2019-09-08T12:05:41Z Shinmera: Only idea I have about that is that condition-wait doesn't release the lock for some reason
2019-09-08T12:05:58Z Shinmera: Lemme see if I can reproduce
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2019-09-08T12:06:25Z thijso: Sure. I'm gonna be away for couple of hours, but I'll check the logs when I get back.
2019-09-08T12:08:22Z Shinmera: Okey, got it.
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2019-09-08T12:12:49Z Shinmera: Well, I get the failure, but not why it happens
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2019-09-08T12:26:30Z Shinmera: It seems like ECL is, under some circumstances, returning NIL from condition-wait with the lock still held.
2019-09-08T12:30:55Z Shinmera: thijso: Fixed via workaround in e47f34a
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2019-09-08T14:34:50Z thijso: Shinmera: great, I'll check it out
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2019-09-08T14:42:32Z thijso: The 'attempted to recursively lock..' error seems to be gone, indeed, but I still get the 'Condition of type: UNKNOWN-ERROR' at the start in the udp processing thread, Shinmera... Looks like I'll need to do some debugging there
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2019-09-08T14:43:48Z Shinmera: I don't know what that's about, so I can't help you there.
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2019-09-08T14:44:01Z thijso: The error message with that one is: "The condition Not a condition type: NIL occurred with errno: 0." Somehow the udp thread is getting signalled with a condition NIL? Is that how I need to read that error?
2019-09-08T14:44:21Z thijso: No, I know, Shinmera
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2019-09-08T14:45:05Z thijso: Just weird that it crops up only if I include verbose as a dependency. Even without calling any code in there. But I think it always starts up threads, right? Is there a way to turn that off?
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2019-09-08T14:46:54Z Shinmera: The docs mention this.
2019-09-08T14:47:07Z Shinmera: push :verbose-no-init to *features* before loading.
2019-09-08T14:47:36Z thijso: Ah, sorry. Missed that.
2019-09-08T14:47:39Z thijso: Thanks
2019-09-08T14:47:57Z Shinmera: No problem.
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2019-09-08T14:48:23Z thijso: On the other hand, eventually I would like to use the threading stuff in verbose as well, otherwise the benefit is next to zero...
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2019-09-08T17:48:23Z hortiel: why is /topic saying #1= and #1!
2019-09-08T17:48:27Z hortiel: #1#
2019-09-08T17:48:44Z hortiel: are they saying lisp is number 1 programming language?
2019-09-08T17:50:18Z ck_: no, it is saying it is 'infinitely programmable'
2019-09-08T17:50:50Z ck_: clhs 2.4.8.15
2019-09-08T17:50:50Z specbot: Sharpsign Equal-Sign: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm
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2019-09-08T17:51:25Z ck_: hortiel: ↑
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2019-09-08T17:53:51Z hortiel: i didn't get that definition
2019-09-08T17:54:01Z hortiel: object has object representation... what the heck
2019-09-08T17:54:13Z hortiel: what is #1# even mean
2019-09-08T17:54:25Z hortiel: #1= is it lisp syntax
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2019-09-08T17:56:48Z tfb: hortiel: when reading data (which is the same as when reading code) #n= (where n is an integer) makes a 'label' for something being read, and #n# refers to that label.  This means self-referential (circular) objects can be read.
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2019-09-08T18:02:15Z moldybits: #1=42 is the same as 42 except you can now refer to 42 with #1#, but only within the same "read context" or something like that.
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2019-09-08T18:03:30Z moldybits: try (list #1=(print 'hi) #1# '#1#) maybe.
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2019-09-08T18:51:53Z pjb: hortiel: indeed, it could also say #42= and #42# to hint that lisp is the answer to the big question of life, the universe, and all that.
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2019-09-09T02:58:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-09-09T02:58:59Z edgar-rft: oink
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2019-09-09T04:36:50Z no-defun-allowed: drmeister: I have ABCL running as a Minecraft (Forge) mod, but I haven't a clue how any classes work, nor how to use Java or the Java FFI.
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2019-09-09T04:57:42Z mstdnuser[m]: which lisp package should i use from https://wiki.debian.org/CommonLisp
2019-09-09T04:58:09Z no-defun-allowed: apt install sbcl emacs
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2019-09-09T05:00:20Z mstdnuser[m]: does it hav to be emacs?
2019-09-09T05:00:37Z no-defun-allowed: if you don't hate yourself, yes
2019-09-09T05:00:48Z mstdnuser[m]: I like atom tho
2019-09-09T05:00:55Z mstdnuser[m]: I wanna use gui
2019-09-09T05:01:07Z AndrewYoung: Emacs has a GUI.
2019-09-09T05:01:13Z AndrewYoung: But mainly it has a nice debugger.
2019-09-09T05:01:22Z AndrewYoung: Atom will work fine, but you won't have the built in debugger.
2019-09-09T05:01:55Z beach: What "nice debugger" does Emacs have?
2019-09-09T05:02:11Z AndrewYoung: slime or sly
2019-09-09T05:02:20Z beach: Hmm.
2019-09-09T05:04:32Z mstdnuser[m]: Atom probably has a debugger plugin
2019-09-09T05:04:53Z AndrewYoung: https://atom.io/packages/atom-slime
2019-09-09T05:04:58Z AndrewYoung: Looks like it can use slime
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2019-09-09T05:07:58Z no-defun-allowed: well you can use Atom but I don't know if it has the SLIME inspector, debugger, all that jazz
2019-09-09T05:08:43Z mstdnuser[m]: it's there right above.
2019-09-09T05:08:50Z AndrewYoung: Yeah, the plugin looks like it is a work in progress, so some things might not work right.
2019-09-09T05:08:50Z mstdnuser[m]: you got an ML room?
2019-09-09T05:09:05Z mstdnuser[m]: that's fine ill help them test then
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2019-09-09T05:09:56Z no-defun-allowed: ML?
2019-09-09T05:10:15Z AndrewYoung: Do you mean Machine Learning or the ML programming language?
2019-09-09T05:12:11Z mstdnuser[m]: the latter
2019-09-09T05:15:07Z AndrewYoung: Searching /list, I found #CakeML
2019-09-09T05:15:43Z AndrewYoung: I support ##lisp might be good.
2019-09-09T05:15:50Z AndrewYoung: s/support/suppose/
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2019-09-09T06:00:57Z wooden: when asdf fails to load my project the backtrace in slime is all about asdf -- no links to the code of mine that actually failed to compile.  is there a way to jump to the code that failed to load via asdf?  the best i've found has been to go back to the sbcl repl and search the buffer up for "error", but sometimes there is no error.
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2019-09-09T06:02:45Z beach: wooden: What does the error message say?
2019-09-09T06:03:24Z beach: I assume there must be one since you have a backtrace.
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2019-09-09T06:04:01Z flip214: in CFFI, is there a way to get automatic translator functions (from eg. an alist or a plist) to the foreign type?
2019-09-09T06:04:39Z flip214: the examples for type translators all repeat the struct name and slots a few times
2019-09-09T06:04:41Z pjb: flip214: yes.  Write a library of such automatic translator functions, publish it, and then use ql:quickload to get it!
2019-09-09T06:06:01Z flip214: pjb: thanks a lot, exactly the answer I've been waiting for.
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2019-09-09T06:07:28Z wooden: beach: it says that it failed compiling one of my source code files, but then every level of the stack is all about where asdf failed in *its* code
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2019-09-09T06:08:32Z beach: And no indication of where the problem is?  Hmm.
2019-09-09T06:09:35Z beach: I understand your problem.  Welcome to the mediocre tool support for free Common Lisp implementations.
2019-09-09T06:12:41Z flip214: pjb: reading the source reveals that (cffi:defcstruct (name :conc-name my-struct-name-) ...) does 99% of what I need... why is that not in the documentation?
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2019-09-09T07:22:14Z thijso: Annoying! The machine I run IRC on has a sdd with I think a loose connection on the board where the cables are, so randomly it dies because the HD gets lost. Trying not to bump my desk too much...
2019-09-09T07:23:22Z thijso: But good morning, everyone...
2019-09-09T07:25:57Z sindan: I'm loading a value from a place that might not exist; in order to implement a defalu value, is there any practical problem to writing (or val 0) instead of (if val val 0), "val" being the expression that might be nil? The expression is long so it's best to not have to write it twice.
2019-09-09T07:26:24Z sindan: s/defalu/default/
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2019-09-09T07:27:48Z beach: sindan: Semantically, you can write (or val 0), but you are sending the wrong message to the person reading your code.
2019-09-09T07:28:08Z beach: The message you are sending is that val is a Boolean variable.
2019-09-09T07:28:33Z beach: sindan: To send the right message, use (if (null val) 0 val).
2019-09-09T07:29:09Z beach: That says "If val is NIL, by which I mean that it does not have the right value, then use 0 instead."
2019-09-09T07:29:42Z beach: sindan: On the other hand, it would probably be better to use "unbound" to mean "not exist".
2019-09-09T07:29:59Z beach: sindan: In which case, you would say (if (boundp val) val 0).
2019-09-09T07:30:31Z beach: Er, (if (boundp 'val) val 0)
2019-09-09T07:30:33Z beach: Sorry.
2019-09-09T07:31:10Z sindan: beach: I agree it's not the best optimization; the program is only for myself, so I was trying to not copypaste the expression twice.
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2019-09-09T07:32:05Z sindan: I can write a macro
2019-09-09T07:32:23Z sindan: That way I only see the expression once.
2019-09-09T07:32:58Z beach: That too.  If you keep your program to yourself, you can write whatever you like.
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2019-09-09T07:34:24Z sindan: beach, thanks
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2019-09-09T07:37:51Z beach: sindan: If val can be an arbitrary expression (and therefore not an unbound variable), you should bind it to a lexical variable to avoid multiple evaluations.
2019-09-09T07:38:24Z beach: (let ((<temp> val)) (if (null <temp>) 0 <temp>)), something like that.
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2019-09-09T07:40:24Z sindan: beach: ah yes, but rather use gensym if I'm going to use the macro in several places?
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2019-09-09T07:46:34Z beach: Yes, by <temp> I basically meant a GENSYM.
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2019-09-09T08:35:11Z tourjin: is slime a plugin of emacs?
2019-09-09T08:35:30Z tourjin: and sliv is plugin of vim?
2019-09-09T08:35:37Z tourjin: slimv
2019-09-09T08:36:15Z shka_: tourjin: pretty much yeah
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2019-09-09T09:40:23Z flip214: minion: memo for tourjin: there's also vlime for vim
2019-09-09T09:40:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell tourjin when he/she/it next speaks.
2019-09-09T09:40:59Z flip214: does anyone have an example of sending a (vector (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) via CFFI to a function expecting a char*?
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2019-09-09T11:15:39Z vydd: flip214: something like https://gist.github.com/vydd/6484a05906ebc10595f6b7e15b41d048 ?
2019-09-09T11:15:40Z Colleen: vydd: Shinmera said at 2017.06.21 05:32:57: Popular overall, or popular in Lisp?
2019-09-09T11:16:33Z Shinmera: wow, blast from the past
2019-09-09T11:16:35Z vydd: oh wow. so last time I visited was 2 years ago :\ Shinmera, if you still know what this was about, I'm happy to answer
2019-09-09T11:16:47Z Shinmera: I don't.
2019-09-09T11:17:23Z jackdaniel: I feel stagnant, it doesn't feel as if you haven't said anything for two years, hm
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2019-09-09T11:19:43Z vydd: weird. yeah, ok, I know I haven't been around, but 2 years is a lot. heh.
2019-09-09T11:24:17Z drmeister: no-defun-allowed: So you have ABCL running as a Minecraft (Forge) mode but there's no documentation or any information on how to access the Java classes?  What I would do starting in a situation like that is I would punch some trees and then take the wood and craft planks and sticks and use those to craft a wooden pick.  Then you can mine for cobblestone and use that to craft a stone pick.
2019-09-09T11:24:56Z drmeister could keep going
2019-09-09T11:26:45Z drmeister usually spends his first night in Minecraft crying in a dark hole - trying to avoid zombies.
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2019-09-09T11:32:58Z no-defun-allowed: drmeister: Oh, ABCL is very, very well documented and I got myself through some examples.
2019-09-09T11:33:24Z no-defun-allowed: But as a proprietary program, all the methods' names are obsfucated and you need a very big table of method names to translate your way out.
2019-09-09T11:34:14Z no-defun-allowed: For most mods, this is no problem, because the toolchain has a post-processing step that consults that table and replaces all the methods, but ABCL doesn't benefit from this as its method lookups are done at runtime.
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2019-09-09T11:35:26Z no-defun-allowed: In #lispcafe we figured out where that table is and how to read it, and I was able to pull out a method (net.minecraft.client.Minecraft.getMinecraft) and call it using it.
2019-09-09T11:37:04Z no-defun-allowed: So now I just have to figure out Forge, which doesn't have any nice documentation pages with a list of classes and methods, and instead wants you to rip out some bulky Java IDE to work things out.
2019-09-09T11:37:19Z jackdaniel: I'm still waiting for a CL implementation written for a hardware built with mnecraft
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2019-09-09T11:38:32Z no-defun-allowed: "Compiling Common Lisp to Minecraft Redstone", a paper by the S-expressionists published in ELS 2029
2019-09-09T11:40:13Z no-defun-allowed: The plan is to write a wrapper around java:jmethod (call it jmethod*) which performs this swizzling and I can work through a few Forge examples from there.
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2019-09-09T11:46:53Z no-defun-allowed: drmeister: I advise you make charcoal early on, then make torches, so you can cry in a lit up hole at least.
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2019-09-09T13:00:27Z moldybits: :p
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2019-09-09T14:08:51Z thijso: Jeeshh. I've just about kicked my minecraft addiction, guys. Stop talking about that in here.
2019-09-09T14:13:25Z dlowe: are we talking about https://github.com/gmasching/sucle
2019-09-09T14:14:43Z dlowe: as part of the forge installation process, they decompile your installed minecraft back into java code and then patch annotations into it.  You're intended to read the code to find out what to tweak/override.
2019-09-09T14:15:03Z dlowe: honestly, it's so complicated and difficult I'm amazed anyone writes a mod
2019-09-09T14:15:14Z dlowe: (at least to get started)
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2019-09-09T14:21:34Z tourjin: is there any preassigned style in emacs like dark mode? white screen hurts my eyes.
2019-09-09T14:21:34Z minion: tourjin, memo from flip214: there's also vlime for vim
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2019-09-09T14:23:04Z tourjin: actually every terms has white backgroud.
2019-09-09T14:29:37Z dlowe: tourjin: Your question would probably be more quickly answered in #emacs
2019-09-09T14:32:06Z tourjin: thanks
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2019-09-09T14:55:47Z drmeister: no-defun-allowed: Please keep me up to date on your minecraft/common lisp exploration.
2019-09-09T14:56:03Z drmeister is looking forward to a redstone lisp machine implementation.
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2019-09-09T16:07:41Z thijso: If I do a (make-instance inside of a package, I shouldn't need to fully qualify the classname, right? I'm trying to indirectly instantiate a class, by doing (let ((class (intern (format nil "~a~a" classname suffix))) and then using that to (make-instance class ..
2019-09-09T16:08:28Z thijso: But it's not working. If I print out some stuff it looks like the difference is that it works with <package>::<class> and not with just <class>
2019-09-09T16:08:38Z Bike: depends on what you mean by "inside a package". that code will create the symbol with intern, so it'll be interned in whatever *package* is in place when intern is called.
2019-09-09T16:08:47Z Bike: which might be different from the package in place when the code is compiled
2019-09-09T16:08:56Z Bike: intern lets you explicitly specify a package for the new symbol, tho
2019-09-09T16:09:22Z thijso: yeah, but it's all inside the same file which has an (in-package :bla) at the top...
2019-09-09T16:09:39Z Bike: Right, that's what package the code will be COMPILED in
2019-09-09T16:09:43Z thijso: Well, no, it's not the same file, but all files have that at the top...
2019-09-09T16:09:47Z Bike: but if this is in a function or something, the package will be different at runtime.
2019-09-09T16:09:55Z Bike: probably will be.
2019-09-09T16:10:17Z thijso: hmmm
2019-09-09T16:10:35Z thijso: So I should explicitly intern in the same package?
2019-09-09T16:10:38Z thijso: Lemme try that
2019-09-09T16:10:49Z Bike: Probably, yes. I don't understand the whole shape of your system though.
2019-09-09T16:12:43Z thijso: right... so that was it.
2019-09-09T16:12:45Z thijso: Thanks, Bike
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2019-09-09T16:13:03Z Bike: glad to be of assistance
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2019-09-09T16:14:46Z Shinmera: you can also do `(let ((*package* #.*package*)) ...)` to bind the runtime package to the one used during compilation.
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2019-09-09T16:23:32Z flip214: minion: memo for vydd: thanks, but I'd hoped to _not_ touch the individual bytes - just push the address on
2019-09-09T16:23:33Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell vydd when he/she/it next speaks.
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2019-09-09T16:32:49Z flip214: minion: memo for vydd: cffi:with-pointer-to-vector-data looks good
2019-09-09T16:32:50Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell vydd when he/she/it next speaks.
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2019-09-09T18:04:32Z stylewarning: If I use COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS, how can i actually call the method?
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2019-09-09T18:06:22Z Bike: Which method? The effective method, or an individual method?
2019-09-09T18:06:56Z stylewarning: Any of them; looks like I need METHOD-FUNCTION from the MOP
2019-09-09T18:07:18Z Bike: Yes, you can take the method-function and then call it with a list of arguments and list of next methods.
2019-09-09T18:07:47Z Bike: that'll get a bit tricky with :around methods
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2019-09-09T18:23:53Z fragamus: can anyone point to some doc that sheds light on structure of clisp c code
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2019-09-09T19:08:45Z pjb: fragamus: https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/
2019-09-09T19:09:14Z pjb: fragamus: notably https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/internals.html
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2019-09-09T20:34:21Z sameerynho: hey folks, I'm using slime and swank with Emacs. When i use slime-connect to connect to swank server it just output connecting to .... and do nothing
2019-09-09T20:34:26Z sameerynho: how can i debug this
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2019-09-09T20:50:22Z skidd0: is there a `continue` like keyword for a loop body?
2019-09-09T20:50:54Z Bike: no. generally you can just use conditionals, though.
2019-09-09T20:51:11Z skidd0: okay that was what i was going to do while i waited for an answer
2019-09-09T20:51:14Z skidd0: ty Bike
2019-09-09T20:51:15Z Bike: like instead of (loop (if (foo) (continue)) ...), (loop (unless (foo) ...))
2019-09-09T20:51:16Z ralt: I usually either rewrite my logic or use (block)
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2019-09-09T20:51:50Z ralt: like (loop (block continue (if (foo) (return-from continue) ...
2019-09-09T20:51:55Z Bike: in really complicated cases you might want tagbody, but not often
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2019-09-09T20:52:26Z skidd0: thanks guys
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2019-09-09T20:52:41Z ralt: I like the "early return" pattern in other languages
2019-09-09T20:52:47Z ralt: but I somehow end up avoiding it in lisp
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2019-09-09T20:53:38Z ralt: I think the name is "guard pattern"?
2019-09-09T20:54:04Z ralt: "guard clause"
2019-09-09T20:54:08Z ralt: according to google
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2019-09-09T21:02:07Z skidd0: is there a library for input sanitization? or is it rather simple to roll your own?
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2019-09-09T21:08:11Z semz: what kind of input
2019-09-09T21:09:27Z Bike: and what kind of sanitization, no?
2019-09-09T21:09:50Z jgkamat: Hey, does anyone know a library or easy method to get a super simple hackable calculator in common lisp. Eg: "1 + 3 + 4" = 8. I'm trying to eventually make a dice roller, ie: 5 + 2d4 = 5 + roll(4) + roll(4).
2019-09-09T21:10:54Z jgkamat: I would like to avoid doing any work like building a parser or whatever if possible, but ideally it would be nice to support parenthasis and subtraction and other stuff like that
2019-09-09T21:15:48Z thijso: How does CL manage class cleanup? If I have a class that contains a slot for a usocket socket, and I connect and use it, do I need to explicitly close the connection before the class instance goes away? Seems like the proper thing to do, but how? I'm looking in CLHS, but can't find anything on class instance destruction...
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2019-09-09T21:17:32Z Bike: jgkamat: you're asking for a parser, aren't you?
2019-09-09T21:18:00Z Bike: thijso: try looking at the finalizers in the trivial-garbage library, but I think you're supposed to use more reliable means
2019-09-09T21:18:21Z jgkamat: Bike: yes that would work, but ideally I would like it to be pre-packaged (ie: I wouldn't have to come up with grammars and all). If you know a good parser that's easy to use I'll take that as well
2019-09-09T21:18:44Z Bike: well it depends on what syntax you want, i mean
2019-09-09T21:19:58Z thijso: Bike: you mean for closing a socket or in general?
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2019-09-09T21:20:19Z thijso: regarding the 'supposed to use more reliable means' I mean
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2019-09-09T21:21:38Z Bike: thijso: yes, as in, you should close the socket more explicitly than leaving it for whenever the object holding the reference to it happens to be garbage collected
2019-09-09T21:21:49Z Bike: more like with-open-file
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2019-09-09T21:22:17Z thijso: Thanks, that clears it up.
2019-09-09T21:22:31Z makomo_: ralt: agreed, i miss that idiom as well -- it gets rid of the trivial cases early and prevents indentation of the general case
2019-09-09T21:23:36Z thijso: So now I have a number of 'exit' points in my class where basically processing stops and the class instance can die, having filled it's purpose. Seems like I need to sprinkle usocket:close-socket calls around those then?
2019-09-09T21:24:04Z skidd0: semz, Bike: user input strings. looking to sanitize for a SQL DB
2019-09-09T21:24:19Z makomo_: jgkamat: do you really need that particular syntax? you could make a sexp-based calculator, so your original expression would look something like (+ 5 (d 2 4))
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2019-09-09T21:27:02Z jgkamat: I definitely will need infix unfortunately, the people using it are non-technical.
2019-09-09T21:27:34Z ralt: thijso: with-connected-socket etc?
2019-09-09T21:27:55Z jgkamat: I did find http://www.github.com/jech/cl-yacc/blob/master/calculator.lisp though, which will probably be my starting point unless I find something more convienent
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2019-09-09T21:28:34Z Bike: if you look for "common lisp infix" you'll probably find a few libraries
2019-09-09T21:28:50Z Bike: might not allow the roll() syntax though
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2019-09-09T21:29:28Z jgkamat: er, the 'roll' is a stand-in for actually rolling dice. I'll take a look though
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2019-09-09T21:42:31Z jmercouris: how could I use Lisp to capture audio from a soundcard?
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2019-09-09T21:43:28Z no-defun-allowed: stupidest way is to pipe bytes from arecord (or equivalent)
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2019-09-09T21:44:27Z jmercouris: let's say I'm on Linux using Alsa or whatever
2019-09-09T21:44:45Z no-defun-allowed: then yeah, open arecord and read some bytes out
2019-09-09T21:44:50Z jmercouris: is it as simple as opening a file stream at the device?
2019-09-09T21:45:47Z no-defun-allowed: hmm, dunno, but arecord is like that, you just read samples from its stdout
2019-09-09T21:46:30Z jmercouris: I'm not sure I like this layer of indirection
2019-09-09T21:47:10Z no-defun-allowed: fair enough
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2019-09-09T21:47:36Z no-defun-allowed: I found also-alsa: https://github.com/varjagg/also-alsa
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2019-09-09T21:47:44Z semz: skidd0: I don't have enough experience to meaningfully recommend a SQL library, but I've used clsql in the past. If I remember correctly it follows the common Lisp (hah) theme of working with ASTs rather than strings, which means most input sanitation issues are avoided and only occur when you finally move from AST to string in a library function.
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2019-09-09T21:49:22Z skidd0: i'm not sure how that avoids the SQLi issue. if you convert some input string from AST to string, can't the malicious string content make it through those transformations?
2019-09-09T21:49:53Z skidd0: at any rate, plain-odbc supports paramaterized statements, which should be enough
2019-09-09T21:49:54Z jmercouris: skidd0: not if it is properly sanitized
2019-09-09T21:50:00Z skidd0: well
2019-09-09T21:50:08Z skidd0: jmercouris: that's what i'm looking to do
2019-09-09T21:50:12Z aeth: skidd0: I haven't generated SQL before, but I have recently generated HTML. No, the malicious string content cannot make it through the transformations as long as you use our own write-escaped-string instead of write-string or whatever
2019-09-09T21:50:22Z jmercouris: no-defun-allowed: very cool, thank you
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2019-09-09T21:50:28Z skidd0: i see, thanks aeth
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2019-09-09T21:50:56Z aeth: skidd0: The hypothetical write-escaped-string doesn't do write-string or write-line, it iterates through every character and does write-char if it's safe, and otherwise writes a string representing an escape instead of the char.
2019-09-09T21:51:03Z aeth: And if you need more sanitization than that, you could do that.
2019-09-09T21:51:55Z skidd0: i should see what chars to watch for in SQLi
2019-09-09T21:51:56Z jmercouris: I wonder how something like datafly handles this
2019-09-09T21:52:34Z jmercouris: or rather shall I say SXQL
2019-09-09T21:52:51Z semz: skidd0: "if you convert some input string from AST to string" << The AST is not a string, that's the point. The input string occurs as some part of the AST
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2019-09-09T21:54:10Z aeth: And if the AST contains strings, then those strings are the only danger points (unless you e.g. convert symbols to strings automatically) so you just write your own write-string
2019-09-09T21:54:28Z skidd0: ^ see that's what i mean
2019-09-09T21:55:02Z skidd0: semz: the 'input string' was, at some point, a string. then it got put into the AST, then somehow back out to string for the DB to hold
2019-09-09T21:55:29Z semz: is the input string arbitrary (or restricted) SQL or just some parameter for a query?
2019-09-09T21:55:30Z skidd0: i was confused how turning the string into data for the AST, by its nature, removed the worry of malicious input
2019-09-09T21:55:37Z jmercouris: that's the thing, what if you write (theoretical) (select "drop table;" from xyz)?
2019-09-09T21:55:42Z jmercouris: there still is the "drop table;" in there
2019-09-09T21:55:46Z skidd0: ^
2019-09-09T21:56:08Z jmercouris: using some DSL does not eliminate the issue of sanitizing SQL
2019-09-09T21:56:12Z skidd0: semz: the input string is existing user-entered data
2019-09-09T21:56:20Z skidd0: it 'should' be just some easy strings
2019-09-09T21:56:24Z jmercouris: unless that library has some sort of protection
2019-09-09T21:56:25Z skidd0: but never trust user input
2019-09-09T21:56:35Z semz: The point is that the escaping happens ONCE, at the end.
2019-09-09T21:56:40Z jmercouris: I would suggest pick up SXQL and see if you can generate some malicious statements
2019-09-09T21:56:44Z jmercouris: I'm not sure if protections are in place or not
2019-09-09T21:56:50Z jmercouris: https://github.com/fukamachi/sxql
2019-09-09T21:56:54Z semz: and in the library
2019-09-09T21:56:55Z skidd0: well i've already figured out my answer to this question
2019-09-09T21:57:03Z semz: whereas otherwise you have people munging strings everywhere and haphazardly escaping this and that
2019-09-09T21:57:09Z skidd0: but i appreciate the disscusion and help
2019-09-09T21:57:30Z semz: which is the cause of almost all injection issues
2019-09-09T21:57:42Z skidd0: right. sanitize once
2019-09-09T21:57:48Z skidd0: well, in one spot
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2019-09-09T22:00:26Z semz: Let's take the example from above: If you represent the query as, say,   `(select ,user-input from xyz)   , then no matter what user-input is, as long as the conversion to a query string happens through the (escaping) library function, there is no injection issue.
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2019-09-09T22:01:00Z semz: And since the conversion to a string must happen somewhere (ideally inside the lib), you only get injection issues if you go really out of your way to introduce them
2019-09-09T22:01:20Z semz:  by reimplementing the conversion wrong or something
2019-09-09T22:01:28Z skidd0: right, this what i understood
2019-09-09T22:01:47Z skidd0: and yet, i'm no closer to a simple escaping/sanitization library unless i want to write my own
2019-09-09T22:02:33Z semz: Oh alright, it seemed like we were talking past each other so I reiterated
2019-09-09T22:02:42Z skidd0: it's okay!
2019-09-09T22:02:51Z skidd0: that's IRC :]
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2019-09-09T22:05:15Z skidd0: maybe it'll help some lurker, too
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2019-09-09T22:11:12Z ralt: skidd0: you should use prepared statements anyway
2019-09-09T22:11:30Z skidd0: in combination with paramaterized ones, is what i've been told
2019-09-09T22:11:34Z ralt: you're guaranteed to do sanitization wrong
2019-09-09T22:11:49Z skidd0: welp that's demotivating
2019-09-09T22:12:03Z ralt: databases know how to do this stuff, let them do it :)
2019-09-09T22:12:23Z skidd0: uhhh..
2019-09-09T22:12:38Z skidd0: SQLi is what happens when a database does the thing it knows how to do
2019-09-09T22:12:45Z skidd0: with data from bad people
2019-09-09T22:13:02Z ralt: prepared statements
2019-09-09T22:13:22Z ralt: or parametized, yes
2019-09-09T22:13:40Z skidd0: thought it was and, not or
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2019-09-09T22:14:08Z ralt: prepared statements are pre-parametized, essentially
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2019-09-09T22:14:45Z skidd0: ah good point
2019-09-09T22:14:46Z ralt: a prepared statement is like compiling your parametized
2019-09-09T22:15:38Z ralt: but anyway, this lets the db take care of sanitization
2019-09-09T22:16:38Z ralt: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/postmodern-examples/postmodern-parametized-statements
2019-09-09T22:18:16Z ralt: side note: I love postmodern
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2019-09-09T22:19:22Z skidd0: i like it as well. but sadly my current task requires interacting with an MS SQL Server DB
2019-09-09T22:19:33Z ralt: I wish you the best
2019-09-09T22:19:34Z skidd0: which i found plain-odbc handles well enough
2019-09-09T22:19:38Z skidd0: thanks ralt
2019-09-09T22:20:18Z thijso: ralt: with-connected-socket is probably smarter, but my calls to usocket are spread over multiple methods. Maybe I should rethink and not bother about reusing sockets for replies. It is UDP after all.
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2019-09-09T22:20:54Z ralt: thijso: it sounds like you want to have a (defmethod close ()) on your class, and then have a (with-my-object ()) that handles opening/closing of the socket
2019-09-09T22:22:12Z ralt: thijso: or you just pass a connected socket to your class, and handle its lifecycle out of your class
2019-09-09T22:22:36Z ralt: e.g. (with-connect-socket (sock) (let ((obj (make-instance :socket sock)) ...
2019-09-09T22:23:21Z ralt: either way, the with- pattern is what you need to manage the lifecycle
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2019-09-09T22:24:47Z thijso: Ah, thanks ralt, that's helpful. I'll have to rethink some stuff I see. But that's for tomorrow.
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2019-09-09T22:25:47Z thijso: And, regarding the escaping discussion: I concur: let the db do it. mysql has a function (`quote` I think?) that does it for you correctly.
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2019-09-09T22:26:18Z thijso: Maybe check how DBD (perl lib) does it? Or some other flavor of the day...
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2019-09-09T22:48:56Z ralt: skidd0: looks like plain-odbc supports parametized statements just fine (exec-query *con* "select * from test1 where x = ?" 1)
2019-09-09T22:49:07Z skidd0: yes, it does
2019-09-09T22:49:22Z ralt: and prepared statements
2019-09-09T22:49:25Z skidd0: yes
2019-09-09T22:49:34Z ralt: you're good to go then :)
2019-09-09T22:49:42Z skidd0: :)
2019-09-09T22:50:07Z ralt: you don't need any input sanitization
2019-09-09T22:50:17Z ralt: what you _do_ need, however, is making sure your output is escaped
2019-09-09T22:50:29Z ralt: (XSS, in the typical scenario)
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2019-09-09T22:50:42Z skidd0: i see
2019-09-09T22:51:10Z ralt: if an attacker wants to store <script>alert('I eat your cookies!')</script> in the db, let him
2019-09-09T22:51:22Z ralt: just make sure it's output appropriately
2019-09-09T22:51:23Z skidd0: jus tescape it on its way out
2019-09-09T22:51:29Z skidd0: yeaa
2019-09-09T22:51:32Z skidd0: fun stuff
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2019-09-09T22:54:41Z ralt: you will typically want a couple of functions like (escape-plain) (to escape all html), (escape-html) (to allow some html tags), etc
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2019-09-09T23:06:35Z edgar-rft wants (escape-from-hell)
2019-09-09T23:11:12Z mrcode_: what's the right way to ensure macroexpansion inside of a macro? i'm having a problem with (defmacro macro1 (&body body) (foofn (quote ,body)) and the invocation (macro1 (other-macro args))
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2019-09-09T23:11:26Z mrcode_: the inner macro seems to not expand :/
2019-09-09T23:11:38Z mrcode_: i suspect due to the (quote ...) part
2019-09-09T23:11:42Z no-defun-allowed: (macroexpand body)
2019-09-09T23:11:53Z no-defun-allowed: yeah, quoted data won't get macroexpanded
2019-09-09T23:12:24Z mrcode_: uhm... face-meets-desk moment
2019-09-09T23:12:26Z mrcode_: thx no-defun-allowed
2019-09-09T23:12:35Z no-defun-allowed: ywlcm
2019-09-09T23:12:44Z no-defun-allowed: it happens, don't put yourself down
2019-09-09T23:13:14Z mrcode_: I was just using macroexpand on the top level macro to see what it expands to.. never thought of using it for more than debugging
2019-09-09T23:13:46Z Bike: mrcode_: yes, quoted objects aren't macroexpanded
2019-09-09T23:15:05Z mrcode_: glad I asked here as I was about to seriously considering code-walking approach
2019-09-09T23:15:25Z mrcode_: s/considering/start considering/
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2019-09-09T23:36:23Z White_Flame: mrcode: typically, you'd just do (defmacro outer (&body) `(inner ,@body)) and let the system recurse through the generated macroexpansion
2019-09-09T23:37:04Z White_Flame: if there are macros in the body, then they need to simply be in an evaluated place in the generated code
2019-09-09T23:37:26Z White_Flame: what goal are you trying to solve?
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2019-09-10T04:37:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-10T04:46:49Z no-defun-allowed: Are there any good examples of using ABCL's FFI? I think I'm doing it wrong and reinventing Java inheritance in the process.
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2019-09-10T05:20:52Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps I do have to reinvent Java inheritance, since I have to swizzle all my method names according to that goddamn obsfucator.
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2019-09-10T07:20:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: ABCL ships JFLI in a contrib, which makes dealing with Java a lot nicer
2019-09-10T07:20:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, alot probably depends on what you're trying to accomplish
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2019-09-10T07:24:49Z no-defun-allowed: Most of the complexity is coming from the stupid obsfucation Minecraft has, so I had to write some methods which look up a table to translate the human friendly names (like posX) to crap (like field_12345)
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2019-09-10T08:13:14Z no-defun-allowed uploaded a video: aimbot.exe.mp4 (5666KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/QHnNwKOxBHLEZoFkPsUouPJz >
2019-09-10T08:13:24Z no-defun-allowed: drmeister: I made a terrible, terrible aimbot to test out the deswizzler (and I only had to provide one obsfucated name, thanks to god damn method overloading.)
2019-09-10T08:15:45Z no-defun-allowed: I guess I have to key my method table using all the Java classes...somehow.
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2019-09-10T08:35:39Z seok: which database does everyone use for their projects?
2019-09-10T08:36:43Z jdz: seok: I can't answer for anybody else, but I prefere PostgreSQL.
2019-09-10T08:38:23Z shka__: postgres is fine
2019-09-10T08:39:05Z jackdaniel: sqlite is great if you need a local database
2019-09-10T08:39:27Z jackdaniel: without much hassle to set it up
2019-09-10T08:39:31Z seok: Yeah, just wondering what everyone uses
2019-09-10T08:39:37Z seok: I'm using mongo for mine
2019-09-10T08:39:47Z jackdaniel: depends on requirements I suppose
2019-09-10T08:40:34Z jackdaniel: I'm certain you could find people who use the lisp image as their database
2019-09-10T08:40:43Z jackdaniel: and call save-lisp-and-die
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2019-09-10T08:40:54Z seok: I'm stressing out whether I should swap to SQL as the lack of community of common-lisp - mongodb users make it difficult to ask for help in odd cases
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2019-09-10T08:41:50Z shka__: well, many people use postgres because of how fun postmodern is
2019-09-10T08:41:51Z jackdaniel: I'd switch unless you have a real need for something what is not SQL
2019-09-10T08:42:04Z shka__: to clarify ;-)
2019-09-10T08:42:11Z seok: I would love to use lisp image as a db, but I have doubts whether it would keep up with the performance standard of SQL or NoSQL DBs
2019-09-10T08:42:28Z seok: or at least the code I implement
2019-09-10T08:42:35Z jackdaniel: what can be faster then memory directly available for the process?
2019-09-10T08:42:47Z jdz: I've seen articles about how Postegres is a better Mongo.
2019-09-10T08:42:58Z jackdaniel: when you use external database you need to: a) speak some protocol (transmission), b) serialize/deserialize data (computing)
2019-09-10T08:43:20Z jdz: PostgreSQL can store and query JSON.
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2019-09-10T08:43:45Z jackdaniel: however I could imagine a database in beach-envisioned system where your process simply gains access to the database memory
2019-09-10T08:43:53Z seok: What about data integrity? How can I be sure that data won't be lost in case of unexpected shutdowns
2019-09-10T08:44:18Z jdz: You can't.
2019-09-10T08:45:00Z jdz: Integrity does not safeguard from data loos, it just guarantees integrity of written data.
2019-09-10T08:45:02Z jackdaniel: I like this answer ↑ (and it is true)
2019-09-10T08:45:57Z jonatack: seok: did a one year project for the paris airports where we were required to use mongo... never again
2019-09-10T08:45:59Z seok: Would in-lisp database be just as secure as a full DB?
2019-09-10T08:46:00Z jackdaniel: seok: but yes, using "real" database will give you some guarantees which are not available in stock lisp image :)
2019-09-10T08:46:16Z seok: jonatack: yeah it's horrible eh?
2019-09-10T08:46:47Z jonatack: as the project evolved it became relation-centric rather than document-centric
2019-09-10T08:47:23Z jonatack: but no managerial will to allow us to change to SQL (we wanted to use postgres)
2019-09-10T08:47:52Z seok: If I could be convinced that a lisp database can be just as scalable and data-secure as full DB's, I would go for that right away
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2019-09-10T08:48:53Z jonatack: mongo was fun at first but if any risk of evolving toward needing a RDBMS instead... heh
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2019-09-10T08:49:44Z seok: On what occasions did mongo underperform?
2019-09-10T08:49:51Z jackdaniel: seok: that was primarily meant as a joke, lisp image is not a way to go for managing data in any non-personal project. if it is a small project with single client use sqlite, otherwise use postgresql
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2019-09-10T08:50:16Z seok: I was hearing that aggregation is not so bad compared to joining in SQL
2019-09-10T08:50:56Z jonatack: mongo is the wrong choice for relational mapping without going down rabbit holes to accomodate/cascading updates and let's not get started about maintaining db integrity in that case
2019-09-10T08:51:39Z jonatack: anyway, ymmv :) but as for me, never again
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2019-09-10T08:53:22Z seok: Ugh, I guess it might be good idea to do away with mongo then
2019-09-10T08:53:49Z jonatack: basically an SQL backend with maybe a mongo one for the document part would have been fine, but some manager sold the project as cheaper by speccing only having to deploy and admin mongo for everything
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2019-09-10T08:55:02Z jonatack: the takeaway: if the value of the data is in the relationships between the data, then go for an RDBMS.
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2019-09-10T08:55:15Z seok: Well it's quite interesting you are writing apps in CL for commercial projects
2019-09-10T08:56:32Z jonatack: it was unfortunately not CL but a ruby/rails/react app but the database aspect should apply broadly
2019-09-10T08:57:01Z jonatack: had no say in the stack, was called in to save the damn thing
2019-09-10T08:57:18Z jonatack: wish I'd refused :p
2019-09-10T08:57:32Z seok: Was it a web app?
2019-09-10T08:59:36Z jonatack: part of it was a web app, the rest an internal management/AI tool to dump data from employees' heads as they were nearing retirement, centralise the data, and apply learning to it
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2019-09-10T09:00:47Z jonatack: to automate tasks and probably hire fewer people, hopefully doing more interesting work without the dumb automated parts
2019-09-10T09:01:11Z jonatack: typical globo-corp software
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2019-09-10T11:24:56Z ebrasca: beach: I did some unit testing and I think testing is good.
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2019-09-10T11:39:25Z beach: Yes, unit testing is good most of the time.  Sometimes it is very hard to accomplish, though.
2019-09-10T11:39:54Z beach: And many times it is tedious if the technique used is to enumerate every possible case.
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2019-09-10T11:48:51Z ebrasca: beach: I try to make all cases.
2019-09-10T11:49:26Z ebrasca: beach: With one test I found it don't read last byte/char.
2019-09-10T11:49:57Z ebrasca: beach: Yea , for me it is very slow.
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2019-09-10T12:15:16Z thijso: So naming... If I have a class that gets to an end state (giving an answer to for example 'find-node') using multiple rpc-exchanges, what would be a good name for such a class? rpc-process? rpc-action?
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2019-09-10T12:17:29Z thijso: Hhmmm, maybe I shouldn't be generalizing too much. Something like find-node-<something>.
2019-09-10T12:17:52Z beach: It would be strange to have the name of a class start with a verb.
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2019-09-10T12:18:57Z thijso: yeah
2019-09-10T12:19:07Z beach: And I don't know what it means for a class to "get to an end state".
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2019-09-10T12:21:11Z thijso: Yeah, not the class, an instance of that class. And wording is bad. I mean a method of that class that gives the answer to 'find-node', which is an iterative process using 'rpc-exchange's to get to that answer
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2019-09-10T12:21:54Z beach: Classes don't have methods.  Generic functions do.
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2019-09-10T12:22:26Z beach: And what does it mean for a method to give an answer to find-node?
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2019-09-10T12:24:05Z beach: What is the nature of `find-node'?  Is it a function?
2019-09-10T12:24:55Z thijso: Its an rpc, a call to a different node
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2019-09-10T12:28:08Z beach: So what does it mean for a method to "give an answer to" an rpc?
2019-09-10T12:28:24Z beach: I am sorry for being so dense, but I truly don't understand.
2019-09-10T12:29:56Z thijso: It returns a list of nodes that were found
2019-09-10T12:34:33Z beach: I think I had better let others figure this out.  I do not understand your terminology.  I feel more stupid than usual.  Sorry.
2019-09-10T12:35:03Z thijso: np
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2019-09-10T12:41:01Z beach: Since nobody is answering, let me try again.
2019-09-10T12:41:16Z beach: Why does a particular remote call have a name?
2019-09-10T12:41:29Z beach: Does every call have a different name?
2019-09-10T12:41:45Z ck_: I thought about chiming in, but don't get the problem either
2019-09-10T12:42:14Z ck_: thijso: maybe show an invocation and the result of it, then people can tell you whether your naming is somehow unusual or not
2019-09-10T12:42:21Z beach: I am guessing that it is not a call that is named find-node, but some function that, when called, makes the remote procedure call.  Am I understanding this right?
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2019-09-10T12:44:27Z beach: ck_: So either we are both dense, or thijso is not being clear.
2019-09-10T12:47:20Z thijso: I'm probably not being clear. Indeed there are rpc calls being done to a different node (instance of the same code running on a different host/port/whatever). Some of them have a type :find-node and pass on a :node-id they want to find. The other side replies with the closest ones it knows and the requester iterates on those to find the one it wants (or ends up with x closest results, but not the actual one
2019-09-10T12:47:26Z thijso: as it doesn't exist (yet))
2019-09-10T12:49:02Z thijso: I'm thinking of making a class that keeps track of the iterations of the rpc calls it has done, keeping track of the replies (found nodes) it gets and removes the duplicate results from different nodes it has queried. In the end it should end up with the answer (1 node, or the x closest ones to that id)
2019-09-10T12:49:38Z thijso: Not sure if that clears it up or makes it worse...
2019-09-10T12:49:38Z shka__: p2p, right?
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2019-09-10T12:50:02Z thijso: Yep, a Kademlia DHT implementation
2019-09-10T12:50:46Z beach: Now it makes more sense.  But again, only instances of classes that are also functions do things, like "keep track", "remove", etc. Those would be generic functions specialized to some class.
2019-09-10T12:51:41Z shka__: instances of some class
2019-09-10T12:52:31Z beach: I meant "generic functions with methods specialized to some class".
2019-09-10T12:52:46Z beach: The specializer is usually a class.
2019-09-10T12:53:21Z beach: thijso: So a class could be called rpc-state, or find-node-state or something like that.
2019-09-10T12:54:02Z shka__: or perhaps query?
2019-09-10T12:54:07Z shka__: find-node-query
2019-09-10T12:54:22Z thijso: okay... lemme think about that
2019-09-10T12:54:30Z beach: thijso: And you would have one or more generic functions with methods specialized to that class for keeping track of the answers.
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2019-09-10T12:55:53Z thijso: beach: I think we have different understandings of 'keep track'. In my view, the slots in the class are where the keeping track is happening, the method manipulate the data in those slots, but it's 'saved' in there. Or am I seeing this completely wrong?
2019-09-10T12:56:12Z beach: That's correct.
2019-09-10T12:57:05Z beach: A method specialized to the class would remove the duplicates.  Not the class.
2019-09-10T12:57:24Z thijso: I'm thinking I like find-node-query. Well, not 'like', but it's the best I've seen
2019-09-10T12:57:42Z thijso: Yeah, agreed, beach
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2019-09-10T12:58:25Z beach: thijso: I was remarking on your saying that "it [referring to the class] gets and removes the duplicate results from different nodes it has queried"
2019-09-10T12:59:29Z beach: The class does none of these things.  Nor an instance of it.
2019-09-10T13:02:52Z shka__: instances in cl are pretty much just data
2019-09-10T13:03:21Z shka__: and classes are just schemes for instances
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2019-09-10T13:04:10Z thijso: yeah, I understand. I wasn't being clear. And I probably have too much bagage from other languages in there still.
2019-09-10T13:04:14Z shka__: it can be actually considered to be old school
2019-09-10T13:04:39Z beach: shka_: Except that it gets complicated, because a function is an instance of the class FUNCTION.
2019-09-10T13:04:40Z thijso: Or even, misconceptions brought over from other languages.
2019-09-10T13:05:07Z shka__: beach: i kinda omitted functions on purpose ;-)
2019-09-10T13:05:17Z beach: Sure.
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2019-09-10T14:25:23Z ralt: thijso: composition usually comes in handy there, where the instance would hold an "rpc" object in one of its slots, and the rpc object can manage caching and whatever is needed, and the methods just do e.g. (defmethod find-node ((node node)) (rpc-call (rpc node) :method :find-node :node-id ...))
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2019-09-10T16:02:39Z seok: anybody use trivial-timeout or other equivalents?
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2019-09-10T16:45:35Z alandipert: what are good references on compiling lisp? representation, transformation, heuristics, etc. i have PAIP and Lisp in Small Pieces, looking for others
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2019-09-10T16:50:09Z Xach: alandipert: those are a very good start!
2019-09-10T16:50:19Z Xach: alandipert: i have also seen recommended "anatomy of lisp"
2019-09-10T16:51:27Z alandipert: i have that one, i'm not sure what to make of it yet
2019-09-10T16:53:59Z Xach: i have nothing further to suggest, sorry
2019-09-10T16:55:02Z aap: hm maybe GLS' paper on his RABBIT compiler?
2019-09-10T16:55:16Z aap: it compiles scheme to a subset of maclisp
2019-09-10T16:59:31Z Xach: ah, that slipped my mind, those are good
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2019-09-10T17:11:46Z ggole: "Essentials of Compilation"
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2019-09-10T18:28:29Z remexre: possibly lightly cursed, but
2019-09-10T18:28:47Z remexre: is there a type specifier for "there is an applicable method"
2019-09-10T18:29:43Z remexre: like, (can-call (x) (foo fixnum x x)) would apply to string iff there were a (defmethod foo ((_ fixnum) (_ string) (_ string))), etc
2019-09-10T18:29:46Z Bike: No. That's not determinable at compile time anyway.
2019-09-10T18:30:10Z remexre: I mean, eql isn't either :P
2019-09-10T18:30:27Z Bike: eql type specifiers are, because the object is right there
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2019-09-10T18:30:53Z remexre: (defvar *asdf*) (check-type foo (eql *asdf*)) ?
2019-09-10T18:31:50Z Bike: *asdf* is not evalauted
2019-09-10T18:31:54Z remexre: oh
2019-09-10T18:31:57Z Bike: it'll just check equality with that symbol
2019-09-10T18:32:27Z remexre: fine, satisfies, then
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2019-09-10T18:32:49Z Bike: satisfies type declarations are generally discarded by the compiler
2019-09-10T18:33:38Z remexre: even on a check-type? or arguments to a defmethod?
2019-09-10T18:33:48Z remexre: to be clear I'm not trying to get better static warnings
2019-09-10T18:33:59Z remexre: I'm doing runtime checks
2019-09-10T18:35:00Z Bike: well, those aren't the compiler. i'm just saying compiler declarations are a major use of types and what you're describing would be totally useless there.
2019-09-10T18:35:16Z Bike: even at runtime it would be kind of tricky to determine what you're talking about
2019-09-10T18:35:25Z Bike: also, methods are specialized on classes, not types
2019-09-10T18:36:11Z remexre: ugh, right, that still trips me up
2019-09-10T18:37:19Z remexre: hm, would satifies + find-method be too footgunny?
2019-09-10T18:37:24Z Bike: also, there being applicable methods doesn't mean a call would be valid. for example you could have a gf with one primary method on fixnum, and one around method on T; then there would always be applicable methods, but it would be an error on anything but a fixnum
2019-09-10T18:38:24Z Bike: what are you trying to do overall?
2019-09-10T18:39:18Z remexre: I've got a function that takes either one of a couple of symbols, or a couple different classes, with the commonality being a single generic function they all have methods defined on
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2019-09-10T18:40:07Z remexre: and the method may not be called for a hot minute after the function is, so I'd rather fail fast than crash 20 minutes later
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2019-09-10T18:41:35Z Bike: But you're anticipating changing the generic function enough that you can't just maintain a fixed list of what to allow?
2019-09-10T18:43:02Z remexre: this is a library; the "couple different classes" are end-user-extensible
2019-09-10T18:43:20Z Bike: right.
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2019-09-10T18:45:33Z remexre: as in like the user should be able to define more
2019-09-10T18:45:53Z remexre: the generic function is the extension point, not the couple of builtin classes that have methods for it
2019-09-10T18:46:46Z pjb: in CLOS.
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2019-09-10T18:49:01Z Bike: there's no guaranteed way to tell that a generic function has an effective method for a given list of classes. first off if there are any eql specializers it's hopeless, and secondly you can't determine that the applicable methods actually add up to an effective method with the given method combination.
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2019-09-10T18:50:09Z remexre: pjb: yeah
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2019-09-10T18:50:45Z remexre: hm, if I ban qualifiers, and the symbols are non-extensible (and I just allow them explicitly), that seems more tractable?
2019-09-10T18:51:05Z Bike: i'm not sure i understand the "symbols" here
2019-09-10T18:51:12Z Bike: and banning qualifiers kind of sucks, but you could do that, i guess
2019-09-10T18:51:35Z remexre: uh like if one passes t, it has its own semantics
2019-09-10T18:53:30Z remexre: idk, it still seems kinda surprising that there's no "could I call foo with these args"...
2019-09-10T18:54:07Z Bike: clos basically lets you execute arbitrary code to define what a call actually does
2019-09-10T18:54:22Z Bike: not being able to answer that question kind of follows along
2019-09-10T18:55:04Z remexre: well, I can execute arbitrary code at runtime :)
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2019-09-10T18:55:41Z Bike: clos also generally assumes that when you're figuring out what a call does, you actually have all of the arguments. not just their classes.
2019-09-10T18:56:06Z Bike: it's very runtime oriented itself
2019-09-10T18:56:27Z remexre: er, I can get "real enough" values for the args
2019-09-10T18:57:49Z Bike: i don't know what that means. if your generic function has the standard method combination and you don't allow qualified methods and you can sort out what to do with eql specializers in some particular way you can probably work out whether a call is valid.
2019-09-10T18:58:34Z remexre: okay, I'm just trying to explore which of those restrictions I could lift
2019-09-10T18:58:55Z pjb: To reject qualified methods, you would define a method combination without qualifier.
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2019-09-10T18:59:41Z remexre: though wait, wouldn't (find-method _ nil _ _) not get them in the first place?
2019-09-10T19:00:47Z Bike: Huh?
2019-09-10T19:00:59Z Bike: Nil is which argument to find-method? the first argument to find-method is the generic function.
2019-09-10T19:01:23Z Bike: wait, well you don't want to use find-method here at all, probably.
2019-09-10T19:01:27Z remexre: them = method-qualifiers
2019-09-10T19:01:38Z remexre: er, nil = method-qualifiers
2019-09-10T19:01:56Z Bike: find-method finds a method with the exact specializers you get it. like, if you provide a class that's a subclass of a class that does have a method specialized on it, that method won't be returned
2019-09-10T19:01:57Z remexre: them = methods w/ qualifiers
2019-09-10T19:02:02Z remexre: oh :/
2019-09-10T19:02:20Z Bike: mop compute-applicable-methods-using-classes
2019-09-10T19:02:20Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-applicable-methods-using-classes.html
2019-09-10T19:02:24Z Bike: is more in line
2019-09-10T19:02:39Z remexre: oh, okay; I'm unfamiliar with MOP
2019-09-10T19:02:41Z Bike: but will not work if there are eql specializers
2019-09-10T19:02:54Z Bike: if you ahve actual arguments, you can use
2019-09-10T19:02:57Z Bike: clhs compute-applicable-methods
2019-09-10T19:02:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comput.htm
2019-09-10T19:03:20Z remexre: oh, yeah, I think that'll work
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2019-09-10T19:05:32Z Bike: this is the function that's actually used during a call, if you pretend caching doesn't exist
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2019-09-10T19:11:48Z remexre: okay, looks like this'll work; thanks!
2019-09-10T19:12:22Z Bike: good luck
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2019-09-10T19:38:34Z thijso: How do I just restart/retry a function if it fails? Can I do (restart-case (somefun) (restart-fun () (somefun)) and then bind handler to invoke that restart on failure? Is there a better way to do this? For context, 'somefun' starts a UDP listener on a port, and regardless of errors, it needs to get back up and listening.
2019-09-10T19:40:00Z jmercouris: thijso: you can put a handler-case in a loop or something
2019-09-10T19:40:50Z jmercouris: I assume the operation is a blocking one in this case, if it is not, my suggestion doesn't work
2019-09-10T19:44:38Z thijso: My idea was to wrap the (wait-for-input ...) call in an unwind-protect, where the socket gets correctly closed in case of failure. Then the function that called udp-start-server in the restart calls that same function again, re-connecting the port. But I'm not sure if this is the correct way to do this.
2019-09-10T19:45:01Z Josh_2: I do that
2019-09-10T19:45:20Z Josh_2: if an error is called it just attempts to restart the function in a networking context
2019-09-10T19:45:23Z Josh_2: I will see if I can find the code
2019-09-10T19:45:37Z thijso: thanks, Josh_2
2019-09-10T19:46:11Z Josh_2: I found one sec
2019-09-10T19:46:36Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1496#1496
2019-09-10T19:46:42Z Josh_2: seems to work xD
2019-09-10T19:46:48Z Josh_2: I've been using it for quite a while
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2019-09-10T19:47:50Z Josh_2: a little bit messy but does the job
2019-09-10T19:49:11Z thijso: thanks
2019-09-10T19:49:15Z thijso: I'll take a look
2019-09-10T19:50:01Z jmercouris: thijso: sounds like a perfectly reasonable solution to me
2019-09-10T19:50:28Z jmercouris: maybe a better question would be though, why the failure?
2019-09-10T19:50:29Z Josh_2: Plaster has absolute murdered the indentation, I think it is because I use tabs not spaces ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2019-09-10T19:52:13Z thijso: jmercouris: yeah, that's next on my list to figure out, but I'm having trouble debugging as it's threaded code. I'm using the udp port to also send dump commands, so I can see what is going on. Bit of a hack, I know, but it works. As long as I have the UDP port to talk to...
2019-09-10T19:52:42Z thijso: Josh_2: easily fixed in emacs. No worries.
2019-09-10T19:52:51Z Josh_2: thijso: you can print to standard output with a background thread by printing to *standard-out* if that helps with debugging
2019-09-10T19:53:01Z Josh_2: that code is also used on a background thread
2019-09-10T19:53:43Z jmercouris: thijso: I guess my question is, if you are just listening on the UDP port, why does it crash? is it *what* you are doing with the data that you listen to that is causing your program to crash?
2019-09-10T19:54:41Z thijso: The issue I'm having is not printing to stdout while my program is behaving. The issue is that my errors seem to miss a lot of information when they happen. It's a lot less than what I get in slime, for example.
2019-09-10T19:55:14Z jmercouris: thijso: aha! well then, I should inform you about the two types of slime you can have
2019-09-10T19:56:00Z jmercouris: thijso: you can have a ~/.swank.lisp like this (setf swank:*communication-style* :spawn) or like this (setf swank:*communication-style* :fd-handler)
2019-09-10T19:56:13Z Josh_2: What is the difference??
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2019-09-10T19:57:45Z jmercouris: I'm not sure exactly, I believe FD handler is file descriptor handler rather than a BSD socket
2019-09-10T20:00:00Z thijso: Ah, yes. But I'm running the code without swank or slime, as I need to run x instances (nodes) that talk to each other.
2019-09-10T20:00:32Z thijso: There's probably better ways to set this up, but it kinda works
2019-09-10T20:00:41Z jmercouris: I see
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2019-09-10T20:29:02Z fragamus: Hey can someone tell me how to build clisp on a Mac from source
2019-09-10T20:35:35Z Josh_2: desgustin
2019-09-10T20:35:38Z Josh_2: ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ
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2019-09-10T21:13:14Z eich: Hey everyone, I just downloaded CLisp from sourceforge.  how can I build from source on a mac?
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2019-09-10T21:33:55Z kpoeck: you need to download clisp from https://gitlab.com/gnu-clisp/clisp.git
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2019-09-10T21:36:04Z kpoeck: you need libiconv libsigsegv libreadline libffcall
2019-09-10T21:36:04Z remexre: is there a builtin to turn a (vector unsigned-byte) to a bit-vector in big-endian order?
2019-09-10T21:38:39Z kpoeck: than ./configure --with-libiconv-prefix=<yourlibiconvpath> --with-libsigsegv-prefix=<yourlibsigsegvpath> --with-libreadline-prefix=<yourlibreadlinepath>  --with-libffcall-prefix=<yourlibffcallpath> --cbcx <directoryname>
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2019-09-10T21:44:20Z remexre: ah, bit-smasher
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2019-09-11T00:10:15Z remexre: is there a way with iterate to iterate through all the active elements of an arbitrary array?
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2019-09-11T03:22:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-11T05:45:20Z ebrasca: beach: Good morning!
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2019-09-11T06:32:14Z flip214: remexre: what are "active elements"?
2019-09-11T06:32:29Z flip214: (loop for element across array do (print element))
2019-09-11T06:32:42Z flip214: (iterate (for element in-array array) (print element))
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2019-09-11T06:37:32Z beach: flip214: The glossary defines the term.
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2019-09-11T06:40:37Z flip214: beach: ah, thanks. well, the fill-pointer is used by LOOP and ITERATE anyway.
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2019-09-11T07:25:49Z ljavorsk: Hi everyone, does the lisp libraries have any name template for package name? (something like: lisp-<name>)? I have this problem, I'm packaging the pgloader-bundle and in the bundle section in Packaging Guidelines is written that every bundled library within this package must be in 'Provide' section. I wanted to start with the alexandria library, but I've found that alexandria exists in fedora, but it's some ruby package and this
2019-09-11T07:25:49Z ljavorsk: alexandria is from common-lisp. Do you have any suggestion how should I name it?
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2019-09-11T07:28:07Z flip214: ljavorsk: Debian uses eg  cl-alexandria - collection of portable Common Lisp utilities
2019-09-11T07:28:34Z jdz: ljavorsk: Are you sure that pgloader should "provide" the libraries it uses?
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2019-09-11T07:29:19Z ljavorsk: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/
2019-09-11T07:29:22Z jdz: It is my understanding that the whole "bundle" thing is so that pgloader does not interact with packages provided from other sources.
2019-09-11T07:29:39Z ljavorsk: Bundling and Duplication of system libraries --- section
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2019-09-11T07:30:50Z flip214: ljavorsk: how much value do you put on compatibility? You could have binary packages with only one FASL file, that would only need the exact matching SBCL version to work
2019-09-11T07:31:01Z ljavorsk: than why it have 67 -git files in /software folder
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2019-09-11T07:33:02Z jdz: ljavorsk: I bet it's so that the dependencies are in a known-good state (from the developer's point of view), and not some package maintainer's.  dim can probably tell more.
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2019-09-11T07:36:19Z ljavorsk: jdz, Hmm I don't know what is known-good state, actually this is my first package so I'm learning about packaging on it. Not to mention the lisp :D never seen it before
2019-09-11T07:37:12Z ljavorsk: A lot of stuff you write here is new for me, so I apologize if I don't understand correctly
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2019-09-11T07:43:15Z jdz: ljavorsk: Maybe you can look into how Golang applications are packaged; as far as I know Go code can use libraries from git repositories (at specific branches/commits).
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2019-09-11T07:54:51Z ljavorsk: jdz, I have to wait for dim, need to ask him if these libraries in software/* are really needed, or if there is another way, because it's a lot to list them in Provides, and also to finding all of their versions, and in the case of name-conflict to figure out the correct name
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2019-09-11T09:35:27Z seok: How do I kill child processes spawned by uiop:launch-program?
2019-09-11T09:35:37Z seok: terminate-process does not kill child processes
2019-09-11T09:38:41Z pjb: seok: using kill(2) or kill(1)
2019-09-11T09:38:56Z seok: huh xD
2019-09-11T09:39:45Z seok: you mean running another program with kill x?
2019-09-11T09:39:58Z seok: How would I find the pid of the child process?
2019-09-11T09:42:25Z jeosol: if are you on linux  terminal: ps -ef  | grep [name]
2019-09-11T09:42:42Z jeosol: not sure if you meant within the repl
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2019-09-11T09:50:05Z thijso: Where would I need to start looking if I get this error: Detected access to an invalid or protected memory address. occurred with errno: 0. ??
2019-09-11T09:50:12Z thijso: This is in ECL, btw
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2019-09-11T09:51:15Z ralt: seok: terminate-process is supposed to work
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2019-09-11T09:51:33Z ralt: if you want to kill the children of the process started with uiop:launch-program, that's another story entirely.
2019-09-11T09:51:41Z ralt: it's the story of how linux works :)
2019-09-11T09:52:03Z seok: yeah, that's what I am trying to figure out
2019-09-11T09:52:07Z ralt: generally speaking, if you kill a process,  you don't kill the children as well.
2019-09-11T09:52:19Z ralt: you have essentially 2 options
2019-09-11T09:52:21Z seok: I am  on windows, but theyre both unix so it shouldn't matter
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2019-09-11T09:52:50Z ralt: (1) either you control the processes you're running, and you can have each child trickle down its SIGTERM to its own children
2019-09-11T09:53:28Z ralt: or (2) you control them but you don't want to change their code, in that case the best is usually to start a supervisor, that will know how to shutdown its children when it gets a SIGTERM
2019-09-11T09:54:03Z ralt: or (3) you spawn the child process in a new PID namespace (e.g. docker container),  and when killing your direct child, the namespace will be shut down and all the children will be gone
2019-09-11T09:54:29Z ralt: (yes, off-by-one)
2019-09-11T09:54:33Z seok: O 3 sounds clean
2019-09-11T09:54:48Z seok: how can I
2019-09-11T09:54:52Z seok:  How can I do that?
2019-09-11T09:55:01Z thijso: I was just gonna say... "ralt says, 'you have 2 options', while holding up three fingers"... ;)
2019-09-11T09:55:06Z ralt: that's honestly not a question one can answer on IRC
2019-09-11T09:55:15Z ralt: thijso: I did point out "yes, off-by-one" :P
2019-09-11T09:55:29Z thijso: Yeah, that's why "I was just gonna say"
2019-09-11T09:55:33Z seok: He thought of the third one while writing the former two
2019-09-11T09:55:37Z thijso: But I said it anyway...
2019-09-11T09:55:37Z ralt: ha, misread
2019-09-11T09:55:39Z thijso: ;)
2019-09-11T09:55:44Z ralt: my bad
2019-09-11T09:55:51Z ralt: I thought of the 2nd one while writing the first one, actually
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2019-09-11T09:56:23Z ralt: but yeah, "how do create docker container" or "how to spawn a child in new PID namespace" is largely googleable
2019-09-11T09:56:29Z ralt: s/do/to/
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2019-09-11T09:57:01Z ralt: (is "googleable" even a word?)
2019-09-11T09:57:10Z seok: yeah
2019-09-11T09:57:15Z seok: google is in dictionary now
2019-09-11T09:57:32Z ralt: what a time to be alive
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2019-09-11T09:58:39Z seok: How would you do 2 in lisp?
2019-09-11T09:58:48Z seok: would it be portable?
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2019-09-11T09:59:32Z ralt: You mean launching a supervisor? It's like launching any other process, except that process is e.g. supervisord or pm2 or whatever
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2019-09-11T09:59:50Z ralt: If you mean writing a custom supervisor, well, that's... a bit of a bigger task.
2019-09-11T09:59:54Z seok: O it is a program
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2019-09-11T10:01:44Z seok: Hm.. this is a much bigger job than I anticipated
2019-09-11T10:02:17Z seok: I guess this is one of the reasons why CL is not as popular as mainstream languages
2019-09-11T10:04:36Z no-defun-allowed: What are you even trying to do now?
2019-09-11T10:05:00Z seok: trying to kill a subprocess spawned by uiop:launch-program
2019-09-11T10:06:02Z ralt: seok: that has nothing to do with CL there
2019-09-11T10:06:06Z no-defun-allowed: And it's not being killed with uiop:terminate-process?
2019-09-11T10:06:16Z seok: it only kills the main process
2019-09-11T10:06:31Z seok: not processes spawned by that process
2019-09-11T10:06:34Z ralt: you'll have exactly the same issue with python's subprocess.Popen(), or golang's os/exec, or whatever else. It's relevant to how OS/processes work, not to programming languages.
2019-09-11T10:06:54Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, that's a Unix problem and not a CL one.
2019-09-11T10:09:50Z seok: I don't know, it is not just this issue. Whenever there is a problem in another language, usually there a library already which simplifies the problem
2019-09-11T10:10:12Z seok: When I am using CL, the problem can be fixed, but I need to learn all these new low level stuff in order to fix it
2019-09-11T10:11:00Z ralt: I'm not aware of anything like that, for this use case, in python, golang, php, or nodejs, which are the languages I regularly work with :)
2019-09-11T10:11:10Z ralt: (unless you count docker bindings...)
2019-09-11T10:11:14Z seok: For example, the case of web scraping, if I want to do anything serious in CL, I need to hand-write running javascript to simulate browser
2019-09-11T10:12:12Z ralt: you mean using chrome-headless?
2019-09-11T10:12:13Z seok: Whereas in node, I can just use puppeteer. This is the reason which made me run node via CL interface in the first place
2019-09-11T10:12:42Z seok: Yeah, writing CL interface to headless chromium is a pretty big jo
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2019-09-11T10:13:13Z seok: If there was a simpler solution in CL, I wouldn't be running subprocess under node in the first place
2019-09-11T10:14:38Z ralt: writing a CL interface to headless chromium is not a pretty big job, no, it's one uiop:launch-process + one drakma:http-request
2019-09-11T10:15:39Z seok: Where is the API for http control of chromium?
2019-09-11T10:15:51Z seok: I know there is one, but I cannot find it
2019-09-11T10:21:01Z seok: Heck, even interface for selenium is not complete and outdated, let alone chromium
2019-09-11T10:22:09Z seok: I love CL and want to build everything in it, but we should admit that there are a lot of aspects in CL which drives away new developers
2019-09-11T10:22:28Z beach: seok: It is a well known fact that Common Lisp has way fewer users than many other modern languages.
2019-09-11T10:22:36Z beach: It should not come as a surprise to you.
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2019-09-11T10:23:05Z no-defun-allowed: seok: Then they should git gud, or probably git away.
2019-09-11T10:23:18Z beach: seok: So when you say something like that, what do you expect to happen?
2019-09-11T10:24:34Z seok: beach: I want to do away with no-defun-allowed's mindset, because it is not good for the language
2019-09-11T10:25:28Z seok: It only continues the cycle of high learning curve -> less developers -> less / incomplete libraries -> high learning curve
2019-09-11T10:27:06Z beach: seok: I don't think you have any evidence for there being fewer (not "less") developers over time who use Common Lisp.
2019-09-11T10:27:12Z seok: Like all of us in the community, I do believe CL is superior in a lot of ways than other popular languages, but I think we should do away with the arrogance which continues the cycle
2019-09-11T10:27:16Z no-defun-allowed: Or maybe they shouldn't and I was being needlessly cynical, but there's two things...
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2019-09-11T10:28:00Z no-defun-allowed: - they should recognise that not everything goes the Unix way because it's quite dumb, and when CL was standardised Unix hadn't killed off everything else - they should be able to tell the difference between a programming language problem, a library problem, ..., an operating system problem. This is probably the second and the last.
2019-09-11T10:28:59Z beach: seok: If you think a simple change of attitude on the part of Common Lisp programmers will magically attract more developers, I think you ignore recent research in psychology.  There are many more, much stronger barriers that will continue to keep most developers away.
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2019-09-11T10:29:53Z seok: beach: it is not clear what you mean by those barriers
2019-09-11T10:30:04Z seok: I suspect they are within the cycle I mentioned though
2019-09-11T10:30:19Z no-defun-allowed: And I do reserve the right to be needlessly cynical, because most newbies are more focused on who funds and who programs in a language.
2019-09-11T10:31:31Z ralt: The language itself; parentheses, Emacs being mostly required if you want the expected dev experience (it improved a bit lately but Emacs is still #1), the freedom that the language gives you (programmable programming language is both a blessing and a curse), etc etc
2019-09-11T10:31:58Z ralt: it's not hard to find reasons...
2019-09-11T10:32:24Z seok: Those all can be fixed with more developers though
2019-09-11T10:32:31Z seok: Newbies are wrong. That's why they are newbies
2019-09-11T10:32:50Z ralt: The Emacs thing can be fixed with more developers, but not the rest.
2019-09-11T10:33:09Z seok: But the it does the language much good with more developers, even if they are newbies
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2019-09-11T10:33:44Z seok: ralt: what other problems do you see drive people away?
2019-09-11T10:33:59Z seok: which cannot be solved by bigger, more active community
2019-09-11T10:35:03Z ralt: speaking of, I discovered manardb lately, it's amazing
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2019-09-11T10:35:12Z beach: seok: I recommend the works by Carol Dweck on the subject.
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2019-09-11T10:36:54Z ralt: I wish it was a bit more advanced (e.g. supporting upgrades), but in and of itself it's pretty great
2019-09-11T10:37:10Z beach: seok: The problem is that it is very unlikely that the number of Common Lisp developers will grow sufficiently fast for your taste.
2019-09-11T10:37:50Z seok: Is it only my taste?
2019-09-11T10:38:09Z beach: I have no problem with the number of Common Lisp developers myself.
2019-09-11T10:38:36Z no-defun-allowed: Probably, I couldn't care less how many people do the things I do.
2019-09-11T10:39:17Z beach: seok: Even with the kindest attitude, a Common Lisp programmer trying to tell a person with many years of investment in a more conventional language that he or she is using a language that is not optimal, and that there are better things out there, will not be believed.  And that is because of the strong forces described by Carol Dweck.
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2019-09-11T10:40:00Z seok: Isn't it in every lisper's favor for CL to be used in more commercial projects, be taught in schools, become more standardized, more lisp jobs, become a practical language rather than just be the theoretical best?
2019-09-11T10:40:20Z seok: If I had thought wrong on that matter, then I was wrong from the beginning
2019-09-11T10:40:35Z beach: seok: It doesn't matter what the answer to that question is, because it just won't happen.
2019-09-11T10:40:54Z seok: I believe it can happen though
2019-09-11T10:40:59Z beach: Good luck!
2019-09-11T10:41:11Z seok: Thanks!
2019-09-11T10:41:29Z thijso: ralt: re: manardb, you mean the one by MSI (about 10 years old)? Looks interesting
2019-09-11T10:41:37Z beach: seok: The sooner you accept the facts, the sooner you will also find better ways of improving our infrastructure, rather than trying to convince more people to use Common Lisp.
2019-09-11T10:41:46Z no-defun-allowed: CL is standardised (see X13J3), is certainly designed to be practical (compare to Scheme), and in today's economy I would rather it isn't used as much, because then there would be a lot less dumb programming jobs as people become more efficient.
2019-09-11T10:42:04Z beach: seok: I gave up trying your strategy a very long time ago.  It just doesn't work.
2019-09-11T10:42:48Z seok: I believe it can be done with just a few serious commercial projects which promotes real attention
2019-09-11T10:42:54Z heisig: beach: Your actions betray you :)
2019-09-11T10:42:56Z seok: It doesn't have to be theoretically complex
2019-09-11T10:43:10Z seok: Well, I am a newbie lisper myself, what do I know
2019-09-11T10:43:34Z beach: seok: The only think that I know that sometimes works, is to show that you can come up with good things, hopefully with less effort than other people using other languages.  And if you don't believe even that is possible, I think your case in favor of Common Lisp is pretty weak and won't convince anyone.
2019-09-11T10:44:22Z beach: heisig: That ^ I admit trying to do. :)
2019-09-11T10:44:22Z seok: Well, from what I understand in trends, people are not as logical as we make them out to be
2019-09-11T10:44:39Z beach: seok: Exactly.  So facts won't bite on them.
2019-09-11T10:44:56Z seok: The reason C became more popular  over lisp is not because C is logically "better" language
2019-09-11T10:45:00Z heisig: Maybe we should rebrand Common Lis
2019-09-11T10:45:07Z heisig: p as Python 4
2019-09-11T10:45:35Z seok: Likewise, trend for CL will not start because it is the most efficient language (even if it is), but because of certain traction
2019-09-11T10:45:51Z seok: for example python got a boom thanks to deep learning
2019-09-11T10:46:06Z beach: seok: C is a disaster as a language for writing applications.  It came to dominate because Unix was given away for free to universities, thereby exposing many generations to it and only it.
2019-09-11T10:46:26Z seok: Even though it was equally or more viable for deep learning to be implemented in a lot of other languages
2019-09-11T10:46:51Z seok: beach: exactly
2019-09-11T10:47:29Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think Python was designed for heavy computing work, rather more like a scripting tool. All the matrix math magic is done in C or FORTRAN (IIRC).
2019-09-11T10:47:37Z beach: seok: But, as you apparently know, people are not into facts.  It's all psychology.  Once you understand these forces, you will see that things are not as simple as they might initially seem.
2019-09-11T10:47:55Z seok: no-defun-allowed: yes exactly
2019-09-11T10:48:16Z no-defun-allowed: Then people get confused when you say that CL is a very dynamic language that can also run very efficiently.
2019-09-11T10:48:17Z seok: I started out programming with python, but moved away from it
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2019-09-11T10:48:24Z no-defun-allowed: "Facts are nothing on the face of things."
2019-09-11T10:48:39Z seok: beach: that's what I am saying
2019-09-11T10:49:11Z no-defun-allowed: They come with expectations that are not fulfilled, and try to apply them anyway without considering if they're close to being correct.
2019-09-11T10:49:35Z seok: given that more developer is good for the health of the language, we should use means other than perfecting the language itself to promote the language
2019-09-11T10:49:37Z no-defun-allowed: So you can't tell them they're wrong easily.
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2019-09-11T10:49:49Z seok: But only if you agree with the premise that more developers is good
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2019-09-11T10:50:19Z seok: Yes, having newbies around is difficult, but having newbies around is good in itself
2019-09-11T10:51:12Z seok: It's suffering that must be endured if there are to be more lispers
2019-09-11T10:51:37Z seok: Otherwise, old lispers will die of old age without new lispers to replace them
2019-09-11T10:52:20Z Shinmera: I can't wait to die of old age, personally
2019-09-11T10:52:27Z seok: Hahaha
2019-09-11T10:52:41Z seok: How old is everyone here by the way? Mind if I ask?
2019-09-11T10:52:43Z no-defun-allowed: Some friends and I started a "cooperative" where we do Lisp stuff, and none of us are older than 21 last time I checked.
2019-09-11T10:52:58Z seok: Nice, are you in Uni?
2019-09-11T10:53:09Z no-defun-allowed: Last year of high school.
2019-09-11T10:53:21Z seok: Amazing
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2019-09-11T10:53:33Z seok: I wish I knew lisp while I was in high school
2019-09-11T10:53:45Z seok: my "tech" teacher only made us do C#
2019-09-11T10:54:25Z no-defun-allowed: We were told to use Python a year after I got into serious programming.
2019-09-11T10:54:58Z no-defun-allowed: That's another thing, I don't think school provides good motivation, either, but it's not too relevant to the topic.
2019-09-11T10:55:20Z seok: Yeah, like heck I knew anything about programming in high school
2019-09-11T10:55:34Z seok: Teacher did not know anything either
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2019-09-11T10:57:35Z no-defun-allowed: I was drawn to Lisp since the other alternatives I knew were Java (which required a bulky IDE that was too slow on my dinky computer at the time for any serious work), Haskell which I couldn't read, C or C++ which I could read better but couldn't ever get to work, Python which was slow, and BASIC which requires no justification really.
2019-09-11T10:58:12Z seok: Yeah, all the same reason
2019-09-11T10:58:24Z seok: A big selling point for me was syntax though
2019-09-11T10:58:44Z seok: A lot of people don't like lisp syntax but for me it makes more sense than other languages
2019-09-11T10:59:31Z ralt: thijso: yup, it's mmap based mapping to CLOS objects, with transaction support and lot of nifty things. It's pretty neat.
2019-09-11T11:00:43Z thijso: cool, I'll have to take a look at it
2019-09-11T11:00:54Z thijso: when I get my world domination app running, that is...
2019-09-11T11:01:03Z thijso: after, I mean
2019-09-11T11:01:05Z seok: what app are you making?
2019-09-11T11:01:31Z thijso: right now I'm still working on a supporting library, a Kademlia DHT
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2019-09-11T11:04:58Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, I think I'm ready to put code down to make cl-decentralise2 run a DHT now.
2019-09-11T11:07:45Z no-defun-allowed: My interpretation is most of the complexity is in the client for finding an appropriate node, and even then it's not too hard.
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2019-09-11T11:13:06Z no-defun-allowed: (And then how I found Lisp was even weirder, someone that I absolutely cannot stand now posted lispers.org to a forum and it sounded interesting.)
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2019-09-11T12:06:25Z _death: in BBN Lisp, prog2 took only two forms, and progn is described as an extension of it...
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2019-09-11T12:58:16Z remexre: flip214: neither of those actually work: loop's across wants a vector, and iterate doesn't have in-array
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2019-09-11T13:52:59Z _death: remexre: you can add in-array to iterate.. or you can use a displaced vector (make-array (array-total-size array) :displaced-to array)
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2019-09-11T13:53:20Z Shinmera: or just use array-total-size and row-major-aref
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2019-09-11T14:12:18Z remexre: _death: oh, didn't know you could use displaced-to that way, I thought they were like slices
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2019-09-11T14:21:51Z flip214: remexre: if you want to loop across a multi-dimentional array, you can use (DOTIMES (i (reduce #'* (array-dimensions array))) ...) and a (row-major-aref array i)
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2019-09-11T14:23:47Z heisig: flip214: You don't like ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE?
2019-09-11T14:25:06Z flip214: heisig: ah yeah, thanks. I thought there's some function for that, but CLHS ROW-MAJOR-AREF doesn't cross-reference it
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2019-09-11T14:30:11Z Shinmera: I mean, I literally already posted about it
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2019-09-11T14:34:32Z _death: I usually just nest dotimes
2019-09-11T14:36:08Z flip214: Shinmera: sorry, got distracted and didn't read all the new lines before completing mine.
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2019-09-11T14:37:00Z Shinmera: I shall forgive your transgression... for now.
2019-09-11T14:37:35Z flip214: thank you so much!  in exchange, I'll have a coffee for you at sbcl20.
2019-09-11T14:38:05Z Shinmera: I'd like to go, but I don't know if I can. Austria is close to me, but it's right during busy university time.
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2019-09-11T14:39:23Z flip214: I won't rat you out
2019-09-11T14:40:09Z Shinmera: I don't have attendance requirements, so that's not what I'm worried about :)
2019-09-11T14:40:48Z flip214: come in via train on Saturday, leave on Tuesday evening...
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2019-09-11T14:54:25Z seok: why am I getting a variable unbound error
2019-09-11T14:54:27Z seok: ....
2019-09-11T14:55:13Z seok: (defmacro with-db (db &body body)
2019-09-11T14:55:19Z seok:   `(with-mongo-connection (:db ,db :port ,+mongo-port+ :host ,+mongo-host+)
2019-09-11T14:55:26Z Bike: use a pastebin for long pastes, please
2019-09-11T14:55:28Z seok:     ,@body))
2019-09-11T14:55:35Z seok: just 3 lines
2019-09-11T14:55:40Z Bike: alright
2019-09-11T14:55:44Z Bike: what's the actual error?
2019-09-11T14:55:55Z seok: variable +mongo-port+ is unbound
2019-09-11T14:56:08Z seok: but it is bound in the line above
2019-09-11T14:56:14Z seok: (defvar +mongo-port+ 27017)
2019-09-11T14:56:35Z Bike: That won't be evaluated at compile time
2019-09-11T14:56:38Z dlowe: it's not bound yet at macroexpansion time
2019-09-11T14:56:41Z _death: it may not be bound when the macro is expanded
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2019-09-11T14:56:53Z Bike: three times, so we're definitely right
2019-09-11T14:57:07Z seok: Probably so
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2019-09-11T14:57:20Z seok: It worked before
2019-09-11T14:57:23Z _death: you can simply leave evaluation of it to the expanded code
2019-09-11T14:57:35Z Bike: maykbe you loaded the file instead of compiling it.
2019-09-11T14:57:36Z seok: Now I am loading the file its showing error
2019-09-11T14:57:51Z Bike: also yeah, if with-mongo-connection evaluates those arguments you don't need them in the macro
2019-09-11T14:58:13Z Bike: and having them in the macro might have weird problems if they're complex objects
2019-09-11T14:58:21Z seok: Ah, should I just make it a function?
2019-09-11T14:58:32Z seok: It is just short form to write with-mongo-connection
2019-09-11T14:59:02Z seok: Hm I don't think it will work as a function
2019-09-11T14:59:13Z Bike: no, just have the macro have +mongo-port+ instead of ,+mongo-port+
2019-09-11T14:59:38Z seok: Ah!
2019-09-11T14:59:40Z seok: Makes sense
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2019-09-11T15:01:09Z seok: Nice, thank you!
2019-09-11T15:03:19Z katco: Xach: i was playing with zs3 and digitalocean's spaces last night. i am unsure if i have the time, but are you open to new issues? prs? is the project still being maintained?
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2019-09-11T15:06:57Z flip214: Bike: but defering constant macro constant expansion to compile time makes the comparison to C++ compile times worse! Raaaaah!   ;)
2019-09-11T15:09:22Z dlowe: hard to compare compile times meaningfully when you can insert arbitrary computation into your compiler
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2019-09-11T16:06:49Z thijso: So, how can threads make usocket:wait-for-input barf? I have minimal code, depending on verbose and usocket, and when I open a UDP socket (socket-connect) and then do (usocket:wait-for-input ..) with some error logging, every second or so I get: "got error #<a USOCKET:UNKNOWN-ERROR>; restarting server in 0.1 second"
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2019-09-11T16:07:42Z thijso: This is on ECL, btw. I know verbose starts up a controller thread ( #<process "verbose-thread" 0x55f6f1219d00> ) but I'm not seeing how this can interfere with the socket.
2019-09-11T16:08:20Z mnasoft: minion: registration, please?
2019-09-11T16:08:20Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=a372d28d will be valid until 16:15 UTC.
2019-09-11T16:09:29Z thijso: The socket implementation in ECL goes through a call to read-select on the socket, which does a c call 'select'
2019-09-11T16:10:21Z thijso: Anyone have an idea how to start debugging this?
2019-09-11T16:10:52Z thijso: Anyway, I'm off for some food now, but I'll check the logs...
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2019-09-11T16:46:26Z Xach: katco: i am open to new issues
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2019-09-11T16:51:32Z ralt: minion: registration, please?
2019-09-11T16:51:32Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=8690c457 will be valid until 17:00 UTC.
2019-09-11T16:52:03Z ralt: uh.
2019-09-11T16:52:17Z ralt: my account has been blocked?
2019-09-11T16:52:19Z ralt: oh well
2019-09-11T16:52:34Z ralt: I guess I'm a bad guy
2019-09-11T16:53:02Z ralt: can't blame gitlab
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2019-09-11T17:01:14Z remexre: is there a way to make a struct with a :type that includes that type as its member?
2019-09-11T17:01:35Z remexre: like (defstruct (foo (:type (vector bit))) (bits ... :type (vector bit))
2019-09-11T17:01:46Z remexre: but, y'know, actually working :P
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2019-09-11T17:02:14Z Bike: that doesn't make any sense with what the :type option means.
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2019-09-11T17:02:42Z Bike: it means an "instance" of foo is actually a bit vector. so of course it can't have a slot that's another bit vector, its slots can only be bits
2019-09-11T17:02:58Z remexre: oh, hm
2019-09-11T17:03:18Z Bike: what did you think :type did?
2019-09-11T17:03:32Z Bike: i'm talking about the defstruct :type, not the defstruct slot :type, just to be clear. they're different things
2019-09-11T17:03:42Z remexre: I want a subtype of bit-vector I guess
2019-09-11T17:04:09Z remexre: I thought it made it a subtype, so it'd "inherit" all the functions of the representation
2019-09-11T17:04:24Z Bike: But with more slots or something? No, there's no capability to subclass built in classes in the language.
2019-09-11T17:04:43Z remexre: hm
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2019-09-11T17:05:21Z Bike: it would decrease efficiency.
2019-09-11T17:05:46Z remexre: I guess what I /really/ want
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2019-09-11T17:06:13Z remexre: is to have some bit-vectors print as different things
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2019-09-11T17:06:54Z remexre: like I might want one to be a hex string, another to be an IP address, etc
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2019-09-11T17:07:30Z Bike: Would it be possible for you to use different printing functions in different contexts? Like call print-as-ip instead of print.
2019-09-11T17:07:43Z Bike: If not, you might be able to manage it with the pretty printer but it'll be kind of weird.
2019-09-11T17:08:02Z remexre: possible-but-inconvenient :P
2019-09-11T17:08:19Z Bike: life is like that sometimes
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2019-09-11T17:08:25Z remexre: yeah...
2019-09-11T17:08:40Z Bike: You could also make an object that wraps bit vectors, i.e. has a slot that's a bit vector, and have it print however.
2019-09-11T17:08:52Z Bike: the penalty is the indirection, obviously
2019-09-11T17:09:56Z remexre: I'm doing something evil with the values though, so I need e.g. aref to work on the object
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2019-09-11T17:10:29Z Bike: Have you considered being less evil?
2019-09-11T17:10:59Z beach: remexre: It is very strange to hijack the built-in functions like the printer and AREF and such for application purposes.
2019-09-11T17:11:15Z Bike: or define your own aref like function, etc.
2019-09-11T17:11:26Z beach: remexre: Your application should build its own types, and its own protocol functions for those types.
2019-09-11T17:12:37Z beach: remexre: You can consider an array (including a bit vector) to be a "concrete data type", i.e. it is meant to be used for implementing abstract data types for your application to manipulate.
2019-09-11T17:13:40Z beach: remexre: So, again, it is very strange to just import the built-in concrete data types as your application types, and then try to twist the way these built-in concrete data types are accessed, printed, etc.
2019-09-11T17:14:34Z Bike: mhm. makes you fight the system.
2019-09-11T17:14:48Z remexre: Bike: heh, it's not /that/ evil
2019-09-11T17:15:00Z remexre: Unification on arbitrary values
2019-09-11T17:15:10Z Bike: if it's causing you problems you might want to consider its evilness is an unironic way
2019-09-11T17:15:41Z Bike: unification like logic? what does that have to do with ip addresses
2019-09-11T17:16:39Z remexre: Work thing :p
2019-09-11T17:17:23Z Bike: if you tell me something is evil, and that it's causing you problems, but you don't elaborate beyond that, i'm pretty much going to have to stop at "don't do the evil thing"
2019-09-11T17:17:34Z remexre: Fair
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2019-09-11T17:52:51Z katco: Xach: ok, thanks. i've only done a cursory examination, but i think it might be an issue with the unmarshaling of xml being inflexible. are you open to prs? or issue first, with some discussion?
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2019-09-11T17:59:29Z Xach: I'd rather discuss.
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2019-09-11T18:13:06Z katco: ok, sounds good. thank you for responding.
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2019-09-11T18:28:07Z thijso: Shinmera: I'm looking at verbose again, and run into another error on ECL, namely when I stop the *global-controller* it gives a SIMPLE-ERROR with the msg: "Cannot interrupt the inactive process #<process verbose-thread 0x5556eee81700>"
2019-09-11T18:29:11Z thijso: Maybe I should just give up. Something in my stack just seems not mature enough to use. ECL, bordeaux-threads, usocket, verbose, I don't know.
2019-09-11T18:29:40Z thijso: I have a feeling it's actually ECL, but I could be wrong. I'm surely not the only one trying to use it for something more than just playing around...
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2019-09-11T19:17:43Z _death: remexre: actually you can easily extend the pretty printer to print such objects in a special way
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2019-09-11T19:19:36Z _death: remexre: the pretty printer function can discriminate objects in any way you see fit, so for example you look them up in some registry to know their semantic type..
2019-09-11T19:21:23Z _death: remexre: if you need it for interactive use, and use slime, then I have a patch that might be interesting https://github.com/death/slime/commit/abcaefe272394799f151bb6ff8232cb9e456f55a
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2019-09-11T19:37:35Z _death: there are limits in your use case though.. for example if you (copy-seq ip-address) the resulting vector will print ordinarily
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2019-09-11T20:02:27Z ldb: sup
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2019-09-11T20:05:42Z thijso: Why do I get a TYPE-ERROR in identical code when I switch from (declaim (space 1)) to (space 2)?
2019-09-11T20:08:57Z Bike: space declarations could affect how the compiler inserts type checks in some way
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2019-09-11T20:10:02Z thijso: Yeah, so then I would expect to get *more* TYPE-ERRORs with lower priority to space, right?
2019-09-11T20:10:12Z thijso: That's what confuses me
2019-09-11T20:10:34Z Bike: it could go either way.
2019-09-11T20:10:36Z thijso: Apparently it's not that simple
2019-09-11T20:10:39Z Bike: it's not defined or anything.
2019-09-11T20:10:48Z thijso: Yeah, I see
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2019-09-11T20:11:40Z Bike: Or for example, with higher priority on space, it might try actually enforcing dynamic-extent declarations it didn't before, which might entail being stricter about some types so it knows what sizes to allocate
2019-09-11T20:11:41Z Bike: who knows
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2019-09-11T20:27:45Z remexre: _death: huh, okay, I'll look into it
2019-09-11T20:27:48Z remexre: thanks
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2019-09-11T21:15:07Z thijso: So, I have an issue with usocket, bordeaux-threads, and ECL. A blocking (or with timeout) call to usocket:socket-receive will give an USOCKET:UNKNOWN-ERROR if there is a bt:condition-wait call being done with a timeout on a different thread.
2019-09-11T21:15:36Z thijso: For some reason the timeout on the condition-wait is interrupting the call to socket-receive.
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2019-09-11T21:21:06Z fe[nl]ix: thijso: https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/blob/master/src/impl-ecl.lisp#L75
2019-09-11T21:21:42Z fe[nl]ix: the implementation uses with-timeout, so that seems a likely culprit
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2019-09-11T21:24:12Z thijso: Yeah, I'd found that code too.
2019-09-11T21:25:03Z thijso: I also see an issue in ECL that might have something to do with this. The line "but the short answer is that alarm is delivered to the signal servicing thread during handling another thread." is making me suspicious. This is in https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/420
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2019-09-11T21:26:41Z fe[nl]ix: thijso: check if ECL implements timeouts natively nowadays
2019-09-11T21:26:50Z fe[nl]ix: that code is old and might be obsolete
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2019-09-11T21:28:00Z fe[nl]ix: indeed, it's 6 years old
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2019-09-11T21:52:10Z thijso: I've created an issue in ECL: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/525
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2019-09-11T22:23:35Z gordonfish: Where does the filter built-in come from? In sbcl I get "The function COMMON-LISP-USER::FILTER is undefined"
2019-09-11T22:24:16Z gordonfish: For example, with this code: (filter (lambda (x) (<= x 4)) (list 5 6 1 2 3))
2019-09-11T22:25:17Z edgar-rft: there's no built-in filter function, it must come from elsewhere
2019-09-11T22:25:32Z scymtym: common lisp has REMOVE-IF/REMOVE-IF-NOT
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2019-09-11T22:25:57Z gordonfish: edgar-rft: Curious; where did they get it from at this link (#7) https://hackernoon.com/learn-you-a-lisp-in-0-minutes-e0c1a060a178 ?
2019-09-11T22:26:31Z gordonfish: I was just reading that page but the examples look a little different from what I normally see.
2019-09-11T22:26:33Z White_Flame: that's scheme, not common lisp
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2019-09-11T22:27:20Z gordonfish: ah
2019-09-11T22:29:04Z edgar-rft: gordonfish: the tutorial says "I should specify that this test is based on WeScheme."
2019-09-11T22:29:48Z gordonfish: Yeah I see that, some how I missed that part
2019-09-11T22:30:28Z gordonfish: (The title up top is a bit misleading)
2019-09-11T22:30:53Z gordonfish: (Sort of like saying "learn C" but it's actually C++ or C#, heh)
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2019-09-11T22:35:22Z edgar-rft: gordonfish: Lots of people (like the author of that tutorial) confuse Lisp and Scheme :-) Scheme is technically a LIsp dialect, but the Common Lisp standard was meant to unify all other Lisps into a single Lisp language. Nontheless Scheme still has an active community on #scheme.
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2019-09-11T22:52:32Z adom`: Hi! I'm wondering about concatenating arrays with concatenate.  Is it more efficient in runtime than setting each element to each corresponding index?  Where can I find information about that kind of thing?
2019-09-11T22:52:59Z gordonfish: edgar-rft: I see. Thanks for that, that does help clear thigns up :)
2019-09-11T22:53:29Z no-defun-allowed: Unless the array has a fill pointer and can fit both array's active elements, I don't believe you can "set each element" since there would be no room for the other array's elements.
2019-09-11T22:53:51Z adom`: In my case it's an array that has a predetermined size
2019-09-11T22:54:32Z adom`: And then I want to delete an element from some index and then fill the space it was in.  And move each element by one.
2019-09-11T22:54:45Z no-defun-allowed: And you can probably assume NCONCATENATE is faster than CONCATENATE ever so slightly because it may use the first array as storage instead of allocating a new one (which is basically just incrementing a pointer on most implementations).
2019-09-11T22:55:01Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, it's probably faster to set the elements yourself then.
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2019-09-11T22:55:37Z adom`: Oh really!? Huh I wouldn't have expected that.
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2019-09-11T22:56:21Z no-defun-allowed: So you're doing something like (concatenate 'vector (subseq vector 0 n) (subseq vector n))?
2019-09-11T22:56:31Z adom`: yeah
2019-09-11T22:56:56Z adom`: I guess I can just try it with a massive array :P
2019-09-11T22:56:59Z Bike: each of the subseqs will make a new vector, unless the compiler is really smart
2019-09-11T22:57:07Z Bike: so doing it yourself is probably better
2019-09-11T22:57:08Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, you'd be iterating over the array three times (or two if you count each subseq as "half").
2019-09-11T22:57:09Z adom`: ohh
2019-09-11T22:57:11Z adom`: wow
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2019-09-11T22:57:29Z adom`: bc it's like a cons? with a head of one element and a tail with all of the rest?
2019-09-11T22:57:36Z Bike: no?
2019-09-11T22:57:43Z adom`: oh :P sorry
2019-09-11T22:57:59Z Bike: vectors are vectors, it's probably contiguous memory under the hood
2019-09-11T22:58:11Z no-defun-allowed: No, a vector is layed out as contiguous memory (on a self-respecting implementation) and each element takes O(1) time to aref.
2019-09-11T22:58:19Z Bike: anyway, you can make a vector of 1- the length of your starting vector, and then call replace twice
2019-09-11T22:58:25Z Bike: then you'll only allocate the one vector
2019-09-11T22:58:37Z no-defun-allowed: But to subseq, the implementation would probably make the new vector, loop over the old elements and set the elements of the vector.
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2019-09-11T22:59:05Z no-defun-allowed: To concatenate, the implementation would make the new vector with size the sum of the input vectors and loop over those elements too.
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2019-09-11T22:59:20Z adom`: oh I see.  I was misreading.  You were just saying 2 new vectors (1 for each subseq... it's very clear now)
2019-09-11T22:59:47Z no-defun-allowed: All up, it'd iterate over the vector length twice, as opposed to just once (worst case, or half in the average case).
2019-09-11T23:00:46Z Bike: with the concatenate subseqs you'd actually have three new vectors, since concatenate makes one too
2019-09-11T23:02:00Z adom`: sorry I'm slightly behind.
2019-09-11T23:02:28Z adom`: So the main cost isn't iterating, it's creating these new vectors?
2019-09-11T23:02:51Z Bike: well they're both costly.
2019-09-11T23:02:58Z adom`: I'm still unclear on whether concat/replace is just doing the same iteration I would do
2019-09-11T23:03:21Z adom`: gotcha gotcha
2019-09-11T23:03:33Z Bike: the concatenate function essentially: gets the lengths of all the sequences, makes a new sequence with the summed length, and then iterates over the sequences.
2019-09-11T23:03:49Z no-defun-allowed: I still believe iterating over the vector an average of two times rather than half of the vector is the slowest part.
2019-09-11T23:04:11Z Bike: i mean the concatenate subseq thing is worse with either consideration
2019-09-11T23:04:24Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah.
2019-09-11T23:05:19Z adom`: Okay, so it sounds like I'll just iterate over half and move them myself.
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2019-09-11T23:05:56Z no-defun-allowed: Are you removing one element, or possibly a few?
2019-09-11T23:06:09Z adom`: Thanks bike/no-defun-allowed.  But yeah, is there documentation that says this kind of thing clearly?  Like the O(n) of different builtins?
2019-09-11T23:06:14Z adom`: Just one
2019-09-11T23:06:57Z no-defun-allowed: Then (remove item vector :count 1) could be less of a hassle too.
2019-09-11T23:07:27Z adom`: I'll look into that
2019-09-11T23:08:44Z Bike: well, subseq is described as making a new sequence
2019-09-11T23:08:55Z Bike: there aren't any mandated O times in the standard, i don't think
2019-09-11T23:10:12Z aeth: adom`: you don't need to iterate, either. If what you're doing is what no-defun-allowed said and it's (concatenate 'vector (subseq vector 0 n) (subseq vector n)) then you can just use replace twice to skip having the inefficient subseq and to skip having to manually iterate
2019-09-11T23:11:02Z aeth: (let ((u (vector 0 1 2 3 4)) (v (vector 10 11))) (replace u v) u) => #(10 11 2 3 4)
2019-09-11T23:11:52Z aeth: So you can e.g. just replace the upper range and the lower range of a fresh vector from the two source vectors (or ranges of one vector).
2019-09-11T23:14:53Z adom`: That does seem neater and easier
2019-09-11T23:15:05Z adom`: Okay I'm going to go with that for now I think
2019-09-11T23:15:09Z adom`: thanks all :)
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2019-09-11T23:21:03Z pjb: adom`: you cannot concatenate arrays with concatenate.  Read the spec!
2019-09-11T23:21:07Z pjb: clhs concatenate
2019-09-11T23:21:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm
2019-09-11T23:21:12Z pjb: it works only on sequences!
2019-09-11T23:22:57Z pjb: Now, you could displace sequences to arrays, and concatenate the sequence, then displace an array to the resulting sequence.  But you would have to find some consistent dimensions.
2019-09-11T23:24:07Z pjb: Finally if you are considering sequences, try to implement concatenate yourself, and see if you can find a more efficient way to do it.
2019-09-11T23:24:40Z pjb: If you don't want to implement concatenate yourself, you can always go have a look at the sources of your implementation.
2019-09-11T23:25:31Z adom`: I haven't really gone through the basics yet, so it wasn't obvious to me that a vector was not a sequence.  I should definitely learn that stuff though.
2019-09-11T23:25:55Z adom`: And yeah, checking the source of my implementation definitely seems like the way to answer my question
2019-09-11T23:26:26Z pjb: This is because a vector is a sequence.
2019-09-11T23:26:55Z adom`: but not an array.  array =/= vector
2019-09-11T23:26:58Z adom`: ?
2019-09-11T23:27:05Z adom`: (I'll go look all of this up)
2019-09-11T23:27:16Z adom`: (I don't want to waste ppl's time)
2019-09-11T23:27:18Z pjb: adom`: well, checking the source of your implementation is a nice way to get some idea, but it is also dangerous, because you will see one specific implementation, but Common Lisp is a language, and several different implementations are possible.
2019-09-11T23:27:29Z pjb: a vector IS an array too!
2019-09-11T23:27:33Z pjb: multiple-inheritance.
2019-09-11T23:30:22Z pjb: adom`: now, the CLHS doesn't specify in general the algorithms or the complexities of the operators.  Only for a few operators, some hints or some restrictions are given.  But since there are several competing implementation, they will often use the best algorithms they can.
2019-09-11T23:31:08Z aeth: adom`: a vector is a 1D array.
2019-09-11T23:31:31Z aeth: adom`: a vector is also a sequence. arrays that are 0D or 2+D aren't sequences
2019-09-11T23:32:10Z pjb: adom`: as indicated, the constraint on concatenate, is that it must return a new sequence.  Therefore the only overhead, beside copying, is that it must allocate the space of the result.  The advantage is that it's purely functional: you will be able to mutate the result without having an impact on the pre-existing sequences.
2019-09-11T23:32:19Z pjb: (this is not the case eg. with APPEND).
2019-09-11T23:32:20Z aeth: This differs from how some other programming languages handle this. For instance, in C++ a vector basically an adjustable vector in CL terminology and there are C arrays and there are new std::arrays and, well, C++ probably was a poor choice of comparison
2019-09-11T23:33:35Z pjb: adom`: you may design an algorithm where you could pre-allocate the space of the result, and use REPLACE instead of CONCATENATE to store it repeatitively, without having to allocate it each time.
2019-09-11T23:33:35Z aeth: Unlike some languages, CL has true multi-dimensional arrays. You don't need to put an array-in-an-array, or use 1D arrays with special accessors to pretend that it's 2D (or more)
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2019-09-11T23:34:22Z pjb: adom`: you can also use a vector with a fill-pointer if the result size may change, or an adjustable array if it may extend what you pre-allocated.
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2019-09-11T23:35:45Z aeth: And vectors that aren't special in that sense are 1D simple-arrays, but not necessarily simple-vectors, because simple-vectors have to be T 1D simple-arrays, iirc.
2019-09-11T23:36:09Z aeth: a (simple-array T (3)) is a (simple-vector 3)
2019-09-11T23:36:25Z aeth: Probably the only really confusing part about vectors vs. arrays
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2019-09-11T23:38:54Z adom`: that's interesting re: true multidimensional arrays
2019-09-11T23:39:51Z pjb: adom`: that's old. Pascal had them already in 1970.
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2019-09-11T23:40:06Z pjb: Pascal even has array with user-specified bases instead of just 0.
2019-09-11T23:40:30Z dlowe: you can even use enums iirc
2019-09-11T23:40:34Z aeth: from the perspective of the type system, arrays have three relevant components: simple or not, the type they can hold, and the dimensions. 1D arrays no matter what are vectors (and vectors are sequences). simple-arrays are simple arrays, and simple-vectors are T simple vectors, not just simple vectors. The length (or dimensions) is part of the type, but usually it's * for anything and often even that is optional.
2019-09-11T23:40:51Z pjb: indeed.
2019-09-11T23:40:55Z dlowe: like type[foo...bar] or however it is
2019-09-11T23:42:12Z pjb: But, in CL, I can implement such arrays if I need them! :-)
2019-09-11T23:42:16Z aeth: And in case the "type" thing is unclear, an array/vector that holds T holds anything, since any type is a subtype of T (except NIL, but nothing is of type NIL, even the object nil is of type NULL, and not of type NIL).
2019-09-11T23:43:50Z adom`: (thanks, that was indeed unclear)
2019-09-11T23:44:02Z aeth: (The standard mandates character (1D character arrays are strings... yes, strings are just vectors) and bit, but practically speaking (unsigned-byte 8), informally octet, is near-mandiatory. Other integer sizes vary, but are usually included if they're signed/unsigned 8 16 32 64 as well as fixnum, and single-float/double-float are included in everything but CLISP.)
2019-09-11T23:45:01Z aeth: (You'll also see base-character, etc. The pattern is that it's basically just for numbers and characters.)
2019-09-11T23:45:22Z aeth: s/base-character/base-char/
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2019-09-11T23:47:29Z aeth: I think that covers everything that arrays can do, normally via make-array. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm
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2019-09-12T01:41:32Z fengshaun: is it possible to do partial application for arbitrary functions?
2019-09-12T01:42:07Z pjb: You can write a partial evaluator, yes.
2019-09-12T01:44:28Z fengshaun: mmm what keywords should I be searching?
2019-09-12T01:44:36Z fengshaun: macros I'm guessing?
2019-09-12T01:47:09Z pjb: I would start googling for: how to implement a partical evaluator in lisp
2019-09-12T01:47:27Z Bike: do you want actual application or is just a delay alright
2019-09-12T01:47:39Z pjb: you will probably have to backtrack to:  how to implement a partical evaluator
2019-09-12T01:47:49Z fengshaun: I'm looking for currying to be more precise
2019-09-12T01:47:59Z fengshaun: thanks
2019-09-12T01:48:26Z Bike: alexandria has a curry function
2019-09-12T01:48:41Z fengshaun: ah, who's alexandria?
2019-09-12T01:48:43Z Bike: i mean it's basically (curry f x) = (lambda (&rest r) (apply f x r))
2019-09-12T01:48:43Z fengshaun: I kid I kid
2019-09-12T01:48:44Z fengshaun: thanks
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2019-09-12T02:02:54Z raghavgururajan: Hello Folks! I am trying to learn LISP for first time. I am interested in Common LISP, Emacs LISP, Scheme and Guile. Should I be learning these dialects in particular order? Thank you!
2019-09-12T02:03:33Z Bike: i don't think there's any required order. also, this channel is actually for common lisp specifically. i think the "general" channel is ##lisp or so
2019-09-12T02:04:07Z no-defun-allowed: Learn Common Lisp, don't learn Elisp if you want to do work outside of Emacs with it (since, well, you can't), Guile is Scheme so learn Scheme after, and do all that after you remember to release the Shift key after writing the L in Lisp.
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2019-09-12T02:08:19Z raghavgururajan: Bike and no-defun-allowed Thank you!
2019-09-12T02:08:23Z pjb: raghavgururajan: but the order you cited looks good.
2019-09-12T02:08:41Z pjb: raghavgururajan: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
2019-09-12T02:08:41Z raghavgururajan: pjb Thanks!
2019-09-12T02:08:53Z pjb: raghavgururajan: http://cliki.net/online+tutorial
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2019-09-12T02:12:21Z no-defun-allowed: Is there an external-format I can use to read lines from a "DOS-formatted" line with CRLF line endings without having nasty CRs at the end of those lines?
2019-09-12T02:13:49Z Bike:  sbcl supports that, i think
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2019-09-12T02:15:35Z Bike: actually i'm not seeing it. hrm
2019-09-12T02:16:24Z no-defun-allowed: Never mind, I'll use (remove (code-char 13) <string>). It'd have to work in ABCL too.
2019-09-12T02:16:51Z Bike: yeah i don't think there's anything standard.
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2019-09-12T02:17:03Z Bike: babel or a library like it might patch things over for you, though
2019-09-12T02:17:29Z no-defun-allowed: All good, thanks.
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2019-09-12T02:35:11Z fengshaun: how do I easily find the sbcl source that implements a function?
2019-09-12T02:35:16Z fengshaun: say, apply
2019-09-12T02:35:26Z fengshaun: I'm wondering how apply spreads its arguments
2019-09-12T02:35:52Z fengshaun: short of downloading the code and grepping
2019-09-12T02:36:46Z fengshaun: and https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/sbcl/ci/master/tree/ is hard to navigate for someone unfamiliar
2019-09-12T02:37:36Z LdBeth: fengshaun: get SLIME and press M-. on function/macro name
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2019-09-12T02:38:18Z LdBeth: But first you may need fetch source code for SBCL
2019-09-12T02:39:19Z fengshaun: LdBeth, ah, yes, need to fetch it
2019-09-12T02:39:27Z fengshaun: slime points to a nonexistent directory
2019-09-12T02:39:41Z fengshaun: not sure why it chose C:/
2019-09-12T02:39:57Z fengshaun: thanks
2019-09-12T02:45:22Z White_Flame: if you install sbcl from source, that should hook up pretty automatically
2019-09-12T02:45:28Z White_Flame: and you'll have the latest version
2019-09-12T02:46:30Z fengshaun: White_Flame, that's gonna be a deep rabbit hole
2019-09-12T02:46:57Z White_Flame: it's a single build script they include, so that's nice
2019-09-12T02:47:17Z White_Flame: oh wait, I keep forgetting people still use windows...
2019-09-12T02:47:20Z White_Flame: never mind :)
2019-09-12T02:48:21Z White_Flame: portacle is an all-in-one environment for CL https://portacle.github.io/
2019-09-12T02:48:39Z White_Flame: I have not tested if it includes linked source through
2019-09-12T02:48:51Z White_Flame: *though
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2019-09-12T02:59:28Z pjb: ok, people can use ms-windows, but developers?!
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2019-09-12T02:59:44Z pjb: Just use linux to develop, and only deploy on MS-Windows.
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2019-09-12T03:01:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-09-12T03:01:46Z ebrasca: morning beach!
2019-09-12T03:02:12Z beach: fengshaun: APPLY would not be a Common Lisp function, so SLIME probably can't find it.
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2019-09-12T03:09:22Z White_Flame: APPLY is a standard function, SLIME finds it just fine
2019-09-12T03:10:05Z White_Flame: however, there are compile-time shenanigans happening too, so each of the hits that M-. brings up is some different path it might take
2019-09-12T03:10:33Z White_Flame: since DEFUN APPLY calls APPLY itself, that inner APPLY is actually something different
2019-09-12T03:10:59Z beach: Oh?  Then either it calls some lower level function to do the spreading.
2019-09-12T03:11:28Z beach: I don't see how that could be done in Common Lisp, because it would involve direct access to machine registers and such.
2019-09-12T03:12:30Z White_Flame: inside DEFUN APPLY, there are type checks on the parameters.  The nested APPLY then is in scope of when types are known, and compiler shenanigans do the low-level replacements there
2019-09-12T03:13:06Z beach: Yeah, OK.
2019-09-12T03:14:01Z White_Flame: and of course, if the types are known in user code (basically if the last parameter is a list), then the shenanigans can happen there directly
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2019-09-12T03:40:48Z pjb: beach: I don't know about sbcl, but in ccl, slime usually can find the source of CL operators.
2019-09-12T03:42:55Z pjb: Choose your development implementation wisely!
2019-09-12T03:46:21Z ck_: pjb: this looks to be more of a 'implementation platform" problem. More to do with windows than sbcl.
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2019-09-12T03:51:18Z beach: pjb: What I meant was that fengshaun should not expect the code that spreads the argument to be written as a standard Common Lisp function.
2019-09-12T03:52:01Z beach: I didn't express myself very well.  I'll blame the time of day and lack of coffee.
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2019-09-12T03:54:18Z pjb: Yes, but at least you should get some sources. It's true that it won't necessarily be clear, unless you know the internals of the implementation.
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2019-09-12T03:58:14Z beach: Fair enough.
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2019-09-12T04:39:21Z fengshaun: beach, no, it found the definition and I looked it up, it's a 'normal' cl function
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2019-09-12T04:39:45Z fengshaun: pretty much cons'es the list together so the end result is it removes one layer of nesting
2019-09-12T04:40:33Z fengshaun: White_Flame, oh, I didn't know the inner apply is different
2019-09-12T04:41:25Z fengshaun: anyway, it was an interesting rabbit hole
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2019-09-12T04:53:06Z beach: fengshaun: Oh?  So how does it pass the arguments to the function being called?  I would be surprised if it conses anything at all.
2019-09-12T04:55:35Z beach: I can see that, in some implementations, every function would receive a list of arguments, but that would be a not-very-efficient implementation.
2019-09-12T04:56:45Z beach: fengshaun: An efficient native-code Common Lisp implementation would pass arguments in registers and on the stack, and neither the registers nor the stack are available to a standard Common Lisp function.
2019-09-12T04:58:04Z ck_: beach: I'd guess this is the source code they're looking at: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/eval.lisp#L328
2019-09-12T05:00:40Z beach: That one just calls APPLY recursively.
2019-09-12T05:03:02Z beach: But yeah, it seems to be consing.  The comment suggests that this is not the way it is typically handled though.
2019-09-12T05:03:22Z beach: It suggests that the compiler treats APPLY specially.
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2019-09-12T05:11:15Z fengshaun: yea, that's the code I was talking about
2019-09-12T05:12:28Z beach: fengshaun: And it doesn't tell you how arguments are spread.
2019-09-12T05:14:27Z beach: And I strongly suspect that this function is not called at all in most cases.
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2019-09-12T05:22:36Z beach: fengshaun: The SBCL compiler treats a lot of stuff specially.  For example, here is the definition of the function CAR: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/list.lisp#L30
2019-09-12T05:23:17Z beach: fengshaun: But that's not a very satisfactory definition of the function CAR.
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2019-09-12T05:24:05Z fengshaun: beach, huh, that makes sense
2019-09-12T05:24:22Z fengshaun: thanks
2019-09-12T05:24:40Z fengshaun: I guess I have to suffice with the clhs definition
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2019-09-12T05:38:48Z no-defun-allowed: The representation of stuff isn't specificied in the CLHS, so it's probably useless if you want to read about the implementation of CAR.
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2019-09-12T05:39:39Z beach: CAR was just an example of how the SBCL treats things specially.  Nobody expressed interest in the implementation of CAR.
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2019-09-12T05:39:55Z beach: the SBCL compiler treats...
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2019-09-12T05:40:07Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, never mind then.
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2019-09-12T09:07:42Z seok: does flet and labels have implicit progn?
2019-09-12T09:08:12Z seok: can I do something like this? (labels ((f () (form1) (form2)))
2019-09-12T09:08:16Z saturn2: yes
2019-09-12T09:08:24Z seok: Nice, thanks
2019-09-12T09:08:26Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, the same as DEFUN and LAMBDA.
2019-09-12T09:15:43Z ralt: I wish unwind-protect had an inverted implicit progn
2019-09-12T09:15:58Z ralt: i.e. implicit for everything-but-last instead of implicit for everything-but-first
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2019-09-12T09:19:58Z beach: clhs flet
2019-09-12T09:19:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2019-09-12T09:20:08Z beach: soek: Look at that page.
2019-09-12T09:20:46Z beach: Do you you see the local-form* and the form*?
2019-09-12T09:21:42Z beach: The * is the Kleene start, and can be read as "zero or more".
2019-09-12T09:21:50Z heisig: ralt: I have two replies for you, that are almost universally applicable to all 'issues' in Common Lisp:
2019-09-12T09:22:10Z heisig: 1. The standardization committee was full of brilliant people, they probably had their reasons.
2019-09-12T09:22:19Z heisig: 2. This issue can be fixed with a simple macro.
2019-09-12T09:22:43Z ralt: 2. unwind-protect2 just doesn't have the same feeling to it
2019-09-12T09:24:00Z heisig: Heck, you can even make your own ralt-cl package that shadows unwind-protect with something of your choice :)
2019-09-12T09:24:27Z ralt: that brings its own set of problems :)
2019-09-12T09:25:00Z saturn2: i imagine the reason is consistency
2019-09-12T09:25:01Z ralt: that wasn't really an "issue", just random venting
2019-09-12T09:26:24Z heisig: You could just ignore syntactic issues altogether.  That is what I do nowadays, after realizing how much brainpower I have already wasted on this topic.
2019-09-12T09:27:11Z ralt: meh, where's the fun if we can't argue on random syntactic issues :)
2019-09-12T09:27:17Z saturn2: you could always use (unwind-protect (progn ...) (progn ...))
2019-09-12T09:27:28Z saturn2: that way it's nice and symmetrical
2019-09-12T09:27:37Z heisig: saturn2: Aaargh.
2019-09-12T09:27:47Z saturn2: (i'm kidding)
2019-09-12T09:28:18Z beach: seok: And look a bit further down the page: local-forms, forms---an implicit progn.
2019-09-12T09:29:10Z ralt: saturn2: I'm trying to think of a snarky answer but falling short :P
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2019-09-12T09:51:48Z no-defun-allowed: Has anyone made a Common Lisp ugly printer? Not an obsfucator, the read in form should be the same as the form printed, but one that tries its best to write the least aesthetically pleasing output as possible.
2019-09-12T09:53:08Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe it would leave dangling parens, produce odd indentation, that kind of thing.
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2019-09-12T09:56:41Z heisig: no-defun-allowed: Given that it is possible to have reader macros in the printed forms, such a tool could produce VERY ugly results.
2019-09-12T09:57:10Z heisig: I think that is also the reason why there is no obfuscated Lisp code contest.
2019-09-12T09:57:17Z heisig: It would be too easy.
2019-09-12T09:57:50Z no-defun-allowed: True. I'll keep my ugliness to things that make #lisp sad when reading code. then.
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2019-09-12T10:28:14Z ralt: I have a funny unix guess game
2019-09-12T10:29:30Z ralt: (DON'T RUN THIS AT HOME, IT'LL BRICK YOUR OS) if you run `chmod -x /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2`, how can you fix it? the constraints being that you ran this in bash, and you can't reboot into another OS.
2019-09-12T10:29:53Z no-defun-allowed: install mezzano
2019-09-12T10:30:09Z ralt: I did mention "unix" :)
2019-09-12T10:30:39Z no-defun-allowed: this isn't #unix
2019-09-12T10:31:08Z ralt: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2019-09-12T10:31:12Z no-defun-allowed: alternately, wait for Schmidt to refurbish another lispm and buy that instead
2019-09-12T10:35:43Z no-defun-allowed: (but seriously, maybe hope you have statically linked Busybox and a root shell lying around?)
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2019-09-12T10:39:50Z ralt: ... pretty much
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2019-09-12T12:32:47Z eigenhombre: Hi, is there some magic required to load libraries requiring FFI in SBCL? When I "(ql:quickload :cl-charms)" I get "Error while trying to load definition for system cl-charms frompathname/Users/eigenhombre/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-charms-20181210-git/cl-charms.asd:   COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while   compiling #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "cffi" "src"
2019-09-12T12:32:47Z eigenhombre: "cffi-sbcl">   [Condition of type ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM:LOAD-SYSTEM-DEFINITION-ERROR]"
2019-09-12T12:33:42Z eigenhombre: (Sorry, IRC and Common Lisp newbie). This happens on OS X whether I install SBCL with Homebrew or from source. Other quicklisp library installs work fine.
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2019-09-12T12:55:02Z ck_: eigenhombre: what are your eigensombreros?
2019-09-12T12:55:30Z ck_: I am on osx as well, can load cl-charms without problems through quicklisp. It compiles some c sources with clang.
2019-09-12T12:56:02Z ck_: is it possible that that part didn't work for you? Also, try (ql:quickload :cl-charms :verbose T) to see more information
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2019-09-12T13:12:28Z Xach: This is an early error - it's when loading the prerequisites involving cffi
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2019-09-12T14:48:35Z Guest14630: anyone here have a keyboardio?
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2019-09-12T15:10:49Z anddam: hello
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2019-09-12T15:15:20Z Shinmera: Is that a new common lisp implementation
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2019-09-12T16:08:38Z Xach: I still can't get over how CLISP's CL:REQUIRE is not a plain function.
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2019-09-12T16:12:02Z Bike: it's not?
2019-09-12T16:12:30Z Bike: "At compile time, (REQUIRE #P"foo") forms are treated specially" oh no.
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2019-09-12T16:23:07Z Xach: Oh yes
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2019-09-12T16:31:38Z pjb: Well, require with a single argument is implementation dependent; in that case, I don't see how getting different results when evaluating it at compilation-time or at run-time makes any difference.  If you want conforming results, pass it the path to load!
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2019-09-12T16:32:18Z pjb: Bike: also, note that #P"foo" is not a string designator.
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2019-09-12T16:45:26Z beach: Hello anddam.
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2019-09-12T17:04:46Z Harag: I submitted a project to quicklisp, and it passed build but since then there have been some bug fixes, will a fresh pull be done before the ql release or do I need to submit an update request in the issues?
2019-09-12T17:07:30Z Xach: Harag: it will be updated automatically
2019-09-12T17:07:49Z Xach: Right before the new release
2019-09-12T17:09:03Z Harag: Xach: kewl! Thanx
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2019-09-12T17:28:30Z munksgaard[m]: Is anyone here associated with lisp.se? All links I can find seem to download immediately instead of opening in the browser: (fragment :421d7a1490788a2c1c1785dff7c479ddb501a0ad97b7bbf399f7abae69abc0f9)
2019-09-12T17:28:47Z munksgaard[m]: Oops, I mean to link lisp.se
2019-09-12T17:28:49Z munksgaard[m]: :D
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2019-09-12T17:38:14Z rmg1917: Is there a way to configure SLIME so that M-x slime opens a REPL buffer in a window on the bottom of the screen, instead of the entire right half of the screen?  I'm reading through slime.el and I can't figure out exactly where the new window is created and selected (not super familiar with ELisp or emacs).  Is it possible to configure this?  Which
2019-09-12T17:38:15Z rmg1917: function calls should I be looking for?
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2019-09-12T17:41:45Z Shinmera: No, but you can just change the layout so it's at the bottom. C-x 1 C-x 2 C-x o C-x b repl RET
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2019-09-12T17:43:25Z Shinmera: The way new windows pop up is An Emacs Thing™, and it can get a lot more annoying than that, I'm afraid.
2019-09-12T17:44:08Z rmg1917: Well, no one ever said programming was easy.  Thanks for the tip!
2019-09-12T17:44:46Z White_Flame: nor did anyone ever said emacs was easy, which is more apropos :-P
2019-09-12T17:45:12Z Shinmera: Emacs' new window... algorithm (?) is so terrible I don't know if it's sadistic on purpose or just incompetent.
2019-09-12T17:45:13Z Harag: Xach: ...documentation for projects...what would you suggest I use to generate docs?
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2019-09-12T17:48:33Z Shinmera: Can't generate docs, you gotta write them, sorry. Otherwise entire swaths of people would be out of a job already!
2019-09-12T17:48:50Z Harag: lol
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2019-09-12T17:50:12Z Harag: Shinmera: ok so what is the compromise .. what generator gives you the basics that you can flesh out?
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2019-09-12T17:51:29Z Xach: Harag: I don't know, sorry.
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2019-09-12T17:51:36Z Shinmera: I don't know what you mean or want, so I can't tell you. I use Staple to aggregate documentation into a page to publish.
2019-09-12T17:52:03Z Shinmera: Otherwise I just write a lengthy readme and docstrings.
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2019-09-12T18:14:40Z Harag: Shinmera: ...urg.. tried Staple ...my doc strings made sense in the context of the code but without the context (surrounding code) they become nonsensical...
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2019-09-12T19:07:08Z tuscland: minion: registration, please?
2019-09-12T19:07:08Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=56862810 will be valid until 19:15 UTC.
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2019-09-12T20:01:12Z munksgaard[m]: I'm trying to use `(ironclad:byte-array-to-hex-string #(44 242 77 186 95))` but ironclad complains that I'm not supplying a `(vector (unsigned-byte 8))`. How do I coerce the array correctly?
2019-09-12T20:01:43Z munksgaard[m]: `(type-of #(44 242 77 186 95))` on my system returns `(simple-vector 32)`
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2019-09-12T20:02:56Z munksgaard[m]: Or rather, how do I convert the array from `(simple-vector 32)` to `(vector (unsigned-byte 8))`
2019-09-12T20:03:23Z Bike: you can `(coerce vec '(vector (unsigned-byte 8)))`
2019-09-12T20:04:16Z Bike: simple-vector = (vector t), i.e. a vector of objects. a (vector (unsigned-byte 8)) is specialized to only deal with bytes, so it's stored more efficiently.
2019-09-12T20:04:26Z Bike: #() always makes a (vector t).
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2019-09-12T20:04:39Z Bike: er, simple-vector is actually (simple-array t (*)) but close enough
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2019-09-12T20:20:43Z whartung: is there a technique where you have an elaborate macro (or macro system), and within the scope of the macro, there are DEFUNs that are scoped, but outside of the macro, they are not.
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2019-09-12T20:21:00Z ralt: whartung: flet?
2019-09-12T20:21:01Z whartung: (mymacro (x y) (dothing x))
2019-09-12T20:21:30Z whartung: honestly I’ve never used it, I would use flet within the macro to wrap the code?
2019-09-12T20:21:41Z ralt: flet is essentially "scoped defun"
2019-09-12T20:21:58Z whartung: yea
2019-09-12T20:22:17Z ralt: so yes, something like (defmacro foo () `(flet ((bar () (...))) (bar x)))
2019-09-12T20:22:34Z whartung: yea, that sounds good. I’ll look in to that. Thank you.
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2019-09-12T20:24:43Z whartung: so LABELS is to FLET  as LET* is to LET?
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2019-09-12T20:25:55Z Bike: almost, but labels also allows recursive definitions, and for earlier definitions to refer to later ones
2019-09-12T20:27:53Z whartung: right, ok. thx
2019-09-12T20:32:03Z moldybits: oh, never considered that option
2019-09-12T20:36:40Z whartung: yea, I knew things like FLET existed, I just never had to apply them anywhere.
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2019-09-12T20:36:47Z Xach: ?????
2019-09-12T20:37:03Z Xach: I use flet all the dang time. (though many times i 'upgrade' to labels)
2019-09-12T20:37:22Z whartung: I’ve never felt the need for a “local” function in my dabblings, that’s all
2019-09-12T20:39:11Z Oladon_work: :O
2019-09-12T20:39:41Z Xach: it's almost the 17th anniversary of guerilla lisp: the opus
2019-09-12T20:39:51Z whartung: wow
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2019-09-12T20:40:03Z whartung: well, I did just celebrate my 19th Wedding Anniv.
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2019-09-12T20:44:14Z _death: what's wrong with plain defuns?
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2019-09-12T20:44:29Z _death: (out of the defmacro)
2019-09-12T20:44:46Z whartung: what do you mean?
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2019-09-12T20:45:31Z _death: not using local definitions
2019-09-12T20:46:57Z whartung: well, for me, I wanted a “kinda sorta DSL”, so I wanted capabilities only within the macro, and I didn’t want to have to code walk the thing to hunt them down. and it’s “nice”, in this case, to have a set of functions that don’t pollute the global name space since they’re not applicable outside of the macro.
2019-09-12T20:49:29Z _death: well, if you mean local definitions in the expansion, that's ok.. though sometimes it's a good idea to also provide global definitions that error.. I thought you might be talking about definitions to help in computing the expansion
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2019-09-12T20:52:58Z whartung: yea, basically you (should) be able to write normal CL within the sections of the macro, but I also want some “special functions”, that are part of the DSL, to be avaiable to those routines as well.
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2019-09-12T20:54:06Z _death: yeah, like CL's call-next-method/next-method-p, for instance
2019-09-12T20:56:09Z whartung: yea
2019-09-12T20:56:24Z Xach: loop-finish
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2019-09-12T20:57:34Z whartung: honestlly, thinkikng about it, not sure how that works in my case. I guess I expand the macro in to a function, and FLET the defitnitions as part of the expansion.
2019-09-12T20:57:45Z whartung: I’ll have to suss it out and play with it
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2019-09-12T20:58:06Z munksgaard[m]: Thank you beach :)
2019-09-12T20:58:25Z munksgaard[m]: Sorry, meant to thank Bike!
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2019-09-12T21:01:48Z Bike: no problem
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2019-09-12T21:02:13Z Bike: don't remember what you're thanking me for but i'm confident whatever i did was perfectly great
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2019-09-12T21:03:08Z munksgaard[m]: You helped me with a simple-vector of bytes :)
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2019-09-12T21:03:46Z whartung: You’re just that kind of person, Bike — who can doubt you :)
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2019-09-12T23:34:56Z eigenhombre: ck_: thanks for the suggestions earlier. I tried installing llvm / clang via Homebrew but that did not seem to address the CFFI problem. Using your 'verbose' suggestion provides the error "... Lock on package SB-ALIEN violated when interning SHARED-OBJECT-FILE while in package CFFI-SYS."
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2019-09-13T04:01:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-13T04:03:25Z ksaj: minion: registration, please?
2019-09-13T04:03:26Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=dd4d0d9a will be valid until 04:15 UTC.
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2019-09-13T04:06:59Z beach: ksaj: You can communicate with minion using /msg minion...
2019-09-13T04:08:26Z ksaj: sorry about that.
2019-09-13T04:09:42Z beach: No need to be sorry.  Just saying.  Those URLs seem private.
2019-09-13T04:10:28Z ksaj: it actually fails in /msg
2019-09-13T04:11:24Z beach: Hmm.
2019-09-13T04:12:03Z ksaj: anyway, I gave up. It said my attempted login was denied 'cos it was a cs something or other.
2019-09-13T04:12:27Z ksaj: it apparently doesn't like me. by /msg it only gets the please part and doesn't understand it
2019-09-13T04:13:01Z ksaj: and when I click on the link it gives me, that doesn't work either. so.. at this point I just don't care enough... thanks though...
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2019-09-13T04:22:30Z eich: exit
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2019-09-13T04:33:49Z hh47:  minion: registration, please?
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2019-09-13T04:35:29Z beach: Try without a leading space.
2019-09-13T04:37:20Z White_Flame: also try "/msg minion help"
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2019-09-13T04:41:08Z Lycurgus: yeah I tried with one of those logins assuming they weren't individual
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2019-09-13T04:41:22Z Lycurgus: (not today)
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2019-09-13T11:49:19Z seok: how would i get the position of last matching character from a string?
2019-09-13T11:49:49Z seok: Trying to determine the file type of images from <image src = ""> links
2019-09-13T11:49:52Z shka_: matching as predicate?
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2019-09-13T11:49:59Z seok: i.e jpg,
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2019-09-13T11:50:32Z shka_: are you are trying to find character or substring?
2019-09-13T11:50:48Z seok: the extension might not be 3 characters
2019-09-13T11:50:59Z seok: so I am trying to figure out where the last . is
2019-09-13T11:51:03Z shka_: http://jtra.cz/stuff/lisp/sclr/position.html
2019-09-13T11:51:05Z seok: and get the substring from that
2019-09-13T11:51:11Z shka_: seok: use :from-end
2019-09-13T11:51:16Z seok: Nice. ty
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2019-09-13T12:20:25Z seok:  is it just me or do other people get a html file download when accessing clhs
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2019-09-13T12:21:43Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, that happens sometimes to me.
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2019-09-13T12:22:03Z seok: It's happening all the time for me
2019-09-13T12:23:04Z no-defun-allowed: It's a good excuse to download the CLHS to read locally, though.
2019-09-13T12:23:12Z jdz: seok: (zerop (mismatch "jpg" string :from-end t))
2019-09-13T12:23:46Z seok: Guess so!
2019-09-13T12:24:02Z seok: Portacle should come with clhs
2019-09-13T12:24:32Z no-defun-allowed: The CLHS is proprietary, so it cannot.
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2019-09-13T12:26:29Z seok: Oh.
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2019-09-13T12:28:18Z no-defun-allowed: You are allowed to download it, maybe you aren't allowed to redistribute it unless some specific rules are met, it's probably not compatible with the other licenses of Portacle components, but IANAL and neither is anyone working on Portacle.
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2019-09-13T13:35:25Z eigenhombre: Morning again. Did some more research on my CFFI / SBCL / problem yesterday following up on your suggestions and captured my findings here: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/57906498/installing-sbcl-ffi-packages-on-mac-via-quicklisp . Any hints on SO or here would be greatly appreciated!
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2019-09-13T14:03:22Z shka_: anybody implemented decompressing text stream in cl?
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2019-09-13T15:16:16Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hi. [SBCL] [Common Lisp] In which package is (alien (* (signed 8)))?
2019-09-13T15:16:27Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Keyword alien is undefined.
2019-09-13T15:16:47Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I wrote (sb-alien::alien... and also.
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2019-09-13T15:29:41Z Shinmera: seok: no-defun-allowed: The clhs is available as a QL package.
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2019-09-13T15:47:20Z pjb: seok: (zerop (mismatch "jpg" "Rajjpgun.gif" :from-end t)) #| --> nil |#
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2019-09-13T15:49:03Z pjb: minion: memo for shka_: have a look at https://cliki.net/site/search?query=gzip
2019-09-13T15:49:03Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell shka_ when he/she/it next speaks.
2019-09-13T15:49:45Z thijso didn't expect to be writing so much C code while working in CL... 
2019-09-13T15:50:07Z pjb: thijso: what C code do you write?
2019-09-13T15:51:04Z thijso: I've been fixing a number of c-inline stuff in ECL and usocket these past couple of days.
2019-09-13T15:51:54Z pjb: So, you're not working "IN" cl , you're working "ON" CL stuff written in C…
2019-09-13T15:52:07Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (declaim (inline foo))
2019-09-13T15:52:19Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @thijso; this?
2019-09-13T15:52:20Z thijso: However, I now seem to have a state where I can actually use one of the logging packages I tried earlier. log4cl and verbose both ended up having the same issue, but now that I've gotten my patches merged I can try using one of them again. (<- Shinmera )
2019-09-13T15:52:35Z Shinmera: \o/
2019-09-13T15:53:15Z thijso: asdf_asdf_asdf: nope, c-inline. As in inline C code (used in Embedded Common Lisp)
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2019-09-13T15:53:49Z thijso: pjb: well, I'm "forced" to do that, otherwise what I'm actually working on wouldn't work (or get nice UNKNOWN_ERROR's sprinkled everywhere...)
2019-09-13T15:54:21Z asdf_asdf_asdf: thijso; write what You have so far.
2019-09-13T15:54:22Z pjb: Yes, sometimes we have to do low-level stuff…
2019-09-13T15:55:05Z thijso: asdf_asdf_asdf: what do you mean? I've found the (or, at least some) issues and fixed them. Now I can go back to what I was originally working on
2019-09-13T15:56:16Z asdf_asdf_asdf: What need to solve problem?
2019-09-13T15:56:25Z thijso: I'm actually a little shocked at how unfinished a lot of stuff seems in relation to ECL. In ECL code itself, but also supporting code in for example usocket and bordeaux-threads
2019-09-13T15:57:02Z thijso: asdf_asdf_asdf: problem already solved. This, for example: https://github.com/usocket/usocket/pull/55
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2019-09-13T15:57:46Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK.
2019-09-13T15:58:21Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Someone know which instruction in aliens instructions is void* and null from C?
2019-09-13T16:00:06Z thijso: Comments like ";; really big FIXME: This whole copy-buffer thing is broken." in SBCL sockets.lisp also doesn't really inspire a lot of nice fuzzy feelings...
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2019-09-13T16:01:16Z Shinmera: thijso: I think in ECL's case it's because it didn't recieve a lot of love until jackdaniel picked up as maintainer.
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2019-09-13T16:02:48Z thijso: Yeah, not complaining. It's just that I usually work in SBCL and haven't had the experience of these kinds of issues before. However, I'm stuck with ECL for now. Unless anyone knows of other ways to build android apps in Common Lips (that don't cost money).
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2019-09-13T16:03:10Z thijso: But, on the other hand, seeing that comment in the SBCL source code... maybe I've just been lucky ;)
2019-09-13T16:03:56Z Shinmera: I have a CLOS regression in SBCL that I still need to reduce and report
2019-09-13T16:04:01Z thijso: Common Lips? Erhmm... Not what I meant. :) Common Lisps
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2019-09-13T16:05:29Z pjb: thijso: ecl is basically a one-man operation.  The miracle, is that there has been one man for so long to make releases so far…
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2019-09-13T17:55:09Z jackdaniel: pjb: that might have been true for some time, but right now we have two regular maintainers and a steady stream of 3rd party contributions
2019-09-13T17:56:20Z jackdaniel: s/two regular maintainers/two maintainers/
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2019-09-13T17:57:51Z jackdaniel: thijso: thank you for your work on sockets in ecl
2019-09-13T17:58:22Z whartung: anyone ever see anything that compares the CL type system to Ada?
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2019-09-13T18:16:53Z Xach: I have not
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2019-09-13T18:19:44Z thijso: jackdaniel: you're welcome. Thank you for ecl in general
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2019-09-13T18:59:38Z aeth: whartung: I think the main difference is that CL's type system is typical in that deftype is just a renaming, but afaik in Ada if you ask for a Foo you must get a Foo even if it's just defined as a range 10 .. 20 or a mod 24 (both of which CL has an equivalent for). That even wouldn't really work in CL. How would you make 13 be specifically of type foo in CL? Doesn't really work well without full static typing.
2019-09-13T18:59:44Z aeth: That's if I'm remembering that correctly.
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2019-09-13T19:00:48Z Bike: i think ada's type system is nominal, yes
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2019-09-13T19:01:24Z Bike: whereas lisp's is structural
2019-09-13T19:03:11Z aeth: One thing I see here in Wikipedia (and I think I've mentioned this here once before!) is that there's pretty much a CL equivalent for every example here except the second subtype. You can represent weekdays as '(member :monday :tuesday :wednesday :thursday :friday :saturday :sunday) but you can't then do (range :monday :friday) as working-days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_(programming_language)#Data_types
2019-09-13T19:03:28Z aeth: member types are, afaik, unordered, although the implementation will probably test them in the order you defined them.
2019-09-13T19:04:26Z Bike: they're unordered. you shouldn't rely on any kind of ordering within types
2019-09-13T19:04:43Z aeth: There also isn't a defsubtype, just a deftype. I guess the difference is that a defsubtype would have to determine that your definition is a subtype of a provided type in addition to defining the type. This could get complicated (or impossible?) if you provide arguments to the deftype or hypothetical defsubtype
2019-09-13T19:05:29Z aeth: whartung: And those are all of the differences I can get from public information on Ada without knowing Ada. There are probably more.
2019-09-13T19:06:34Z sjl_: Bike: can you rely on (check-type foo '(and t1 t2)) to check that foo is of type t1 before t2?
2019-09-13T19:06:41Z Bike: No
2019-09-13T19:06:42Z sjl_: otherwise in http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_satisf.htm
2019-09-13T19:06:50Z sjl_: > For example, the type specifier (and integer (satisfies evenp)) denotes the set of all even integers.
2019-09-13T19:07:20Z sjl_: If it's not guaranteed to check integer first, evenp could throw
2019-09-13T19:07:27Z sjl_: s/throw/signal an error/
2019-09-13T19:08:06Z Bike: a type specifier denotes a set, not a predication operation. that's wrong, that's all
2019-09-13T19:08:28Z seok: Morning
2019-09-13T19:08:49Z sjl_: I suppose.  Seems odd that they would choose an example that would be broken if used with typep or check-type...
2019-09-13T19:08:56Z pjb: Bike: it is not structural: (deftype p1 x y) (deftype p2 x y) (p2-x (make-p1 :x 1 :y 2)) is not conforming!
2019-09-13T19:09:20Z Bike: is that supposed to be lisp?
2019-09-13T19:09:46Z pjb: is that #lisp?
2019-09-13T19:09:53Z sjl_: I think he meant defstruct, not deftype
2019-09-13T19:09:55Z Bike: i mean that's not how deftype works. is it defstruct
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2019-09-13T19:10:08Z pjb: Sorry s/deftype/defstruct/
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2019-09-13T19:11:09Z Bike: well what i mean is that the deftype mechanism doesn't add any type names that affect resolution of type system questions. it is true you can name different struct types
2019-09-13T19:13:44Z pjb: Lisp is a generic programming language.  Meaning that most code you write is just not typed, it's "template code" or "generic code".   It can transport data of any type.  It's usually left to the client code to determine what gets in, and what it gets out.
2019-09-13T19:14:17Z pjb: Take for example sort.  sort can work on sequences of anything, you just give it a lessp function.
2019-09-13T19:14:39Z pjb: So all those discussions about typing and dumb and boring.
2019-09-13T19:16:01Z pjb: On of the tests to know if a person will be able to become a programmer, is to check if that person is able to reason with boxes, abstracting the contents.  Trying th re-introduce restrictions on boxes such as boxes that can hold only numbers or only shoes doesn't help!
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2019-09-13T19:17:01Z pjb: Of course, typing gives a lot of work to searchers and PhD students.  It gives a lot of diplomas and university budgets…
2019-09-13T19:19:02Z Josh_2: xD
2019-09-13T19:19:12Z sukaeto: whartung: it's really hard to compare the type systems of Lisp and Ada
2019-09-13T19:19:40Z sukaeto: in Ada, every expression is typed at compile time
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2019-09-13T19:20:12Z sukaeto: as others have mentioned, you can have e.g. distinct range types which are incompatible with one another
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2019-09-13T19:25:59Z sukaeto: in Ada, defining types is a large part of programming.  The type system in Ada can help you make sure you're not making semantic errors (for a simple e.g. trying to multiply a speed and a distance when you meant to multiply a speed and a time)
2019-09-13T19:27:18Z sukaeto: it's a lot different from Lisp, where you (at least if you're me :-) ) just kind of grow code organically at the REPL
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2019-09-13T19:34:47Z aeth: sukaeto: I was saying what I said under the assumption that it would apply even if you (with ordinary semantics) DECLAREd every variable in your functions/bindings, Ada-style, and even used an Ada-syntax reader macro, what would differ.
2019-09-13T19:35:14Z aeth: Of course, with that many macros, you could probably cons up additional type-tracking data structures to match Ada more precisely...
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2019-09-13T19:36:32Z aeth: sukaeto: as for your specific problem (speed vs. distance), I wouldn't be surprised if Ada (or an extended Ada) had units in its type system
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2019-09-13T19:47:40Z sukaeto: aeth: it doesn't provide them in the standard library, but they're easy enough to declare on your own
2019-09-13T19:48:09Z sukaeto: and I think GNAT (which is pretty much defacto Ada) provides a library that will generate the matrix for you
2019-09-13T19:49:11Z sukaeto: and yeah, of course you *could* implement such rich type level programming in Lisp.  I mean, look at what the Qi/Shen team has done!
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2019-09-13T20:01:08Z aeth: sukaeto: Defining types is almost always a large part of programming, though, and it just differs based on the language. e.g. usually that means defining classes.
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2019-09-13T20:02:49Z aeth: I guess the main exception would be ultra-dynamic languages like Lua maybe? Just a bunch of tables there.
2019-09-13T20:05:30Z sukaeto: it's kind of hard to explain (well, without writing an entire essay on the topic).  In Ada, pretty much everything is about types and the relationships between them.
2019-09-13T20:06:01Z whartung: yea, there’s just been more “Ada” traffic (seemingly) recently, and (mostly) focused on its type system. And while typing is idiomatically optional in CL, it seems that the CL type system is quite rich. Whether it’s rich enough, or enforced well enough, to opt as a stand in for Ada (if all you were interested in was a typed language, vs some other issue), that I don’t know. Unlikely, but was just curious by how much
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2019-09-13T20:07:00Z whartung: and ceratinly not in every case, but whether there may be examples where the CL type system is “good enough” for someone who might else look at Ada
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2019-09-13T20:07:12Z sukaeto: I think it's fair to say "you can do things in Ada out of the box with its type system that would require you to write a lot of macro code to achieve in Lisp"
2019-09-13T20:08:06Z aeth: whartung: Two problems. (1) You only get that richness if you use DECLARE, but DECLARE has undefined semantics (usually just means that it's ignored in some implementations, like CLISP) and the only implementation that normally handles it properly in almost all cases (SBCL) also does the worst (for reliability) semantics when at the (safety 0) optimization level, i.e. it assumes the type, like C.
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2019-09-13T20:08:21Z aeth: DECLARE is fine, although you might want a macro for less-awkward syntax. I've written a lot of code both ways, thoguh.
2019-09-13T20:08:24Z aeth: *though
2019-09-13T20:08:25Z whartung: but the key question is whether, even with enough macro code, was CL capable at all. How much of an overlap is there. The point about subtypes is important, i think, and structurally similarity — that may be a deal breaker
2019-09-13T20:09:03Z sukaeto: well, it's clearly capable.  One could make the argument that Shen's type system is even more powerful than Ada's
2019-09-13T20:09:27Z sukaeto: while Shen is it's own thing now, it started out as just a bunch of Common Lisp macros, if I understand it correctly
2019-09-13T20:09:29Z whartung: and, yea, there’s the question of implemenation level enforcement.
2019-09-13T20:09:50Z aeth: whartung: The other problem (2) CL usually compiles file-by-file and leaves (almost, structs are undefined here) everything up for redefinition  so unless you violate the standard with something like sb-ext:*derive-function-types* you won't get the full benefit of static typing outside of a single file and the CL package built-ins (and even in SBCL, you don't get quite the full benefit in a file because the style is so uncommon)
2019-09-13T20:10:15Z aeth: (That variable is false by default)
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2019-09-13T20:10:59Z sukaeto: in any event, in Ada the type system's real value is in how the programmer an leverage it to get "provably correct" code
2019-09-13T20:11:11Z aeth: whartung: And relating problem #2 to problem #1, SBCL only does its static type checking when safety > 0 so you are actually less safe than in C/C++ where you'll at least get static safety without runtime safety! With SBCL you have both or neither, not C-level safety.
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2019-09-13T20:11:22Z pjb: DECLARE is the user (programmer) giving hints to the compiler.  It is by definition a bad thing.
2019-09-13T20:11:33Z sukaeto: (scare quotes because of course you don't get provably correct in general.  But you can get some strong guarantees over some facets of the code.)
2019-09-13T20:12:03Z sukaeto: the extra efficiency the compiler can squeeze out given the extra information the types encode is just a bonus
2019-09-13T20:12:08Z aeth: whartung: Additionally, the ftype of a function that you get with DECLARE/DECLAIM-heavy code isn't exposed like the type information is. It's just for the compiler afaik.
2019-09-13T20:12:30Z whartung: right
2019-09-13T20:13:04Z pjb: The use of type in statically typed programming languages is to restrict the data flow.  In dynamically typed programming language, the data flow is not restricted, we just check the type of the operands when needed.  If you need to restrict the data flow, perhaps you should do so more explicitely than by just decclaring types.  You should just write down the data flow, so to ensure that data that enters it doesn't leave it and no
2019-09-13T20:13:04Z pjb: data can enter it.
2019-09-13T20:13:25Z aeth: pjb: You are incredibly, absolutely wrong as far as types go. There is a major difference between DECLARE and CHECK-TYPE where supported, and SBCL will take a CHECK-TYPE to mean that the variable before that point is of type T, since anything can be provided, and you can at runtime turn that into the item of the correct type during the CHECK-TYPE process.
2019-09-13T20:13:37Z aeth: So DECLARE can guarantee more than CHECK-TYPE
2019-09-13T20:13:42Z pjb: Also, when you describe such data flow, you won't filter just by types, but you can and should filter more.  For example, on units, or on the provenance of the data!
2019-09-13T20:13:48Z aeth: If you want to talk about static typing in CL, all you have is DECLARE.
2019-09-13T20:13:57Z aeth: (Static typing in addition to dynamic typing, i.e. gradual typing.)
2019-09-13T20:14:14Z pjb: For example, there should be no reason to use a password from something else than physical user input.
2019-09-13T20:14:16Z sukaeto: pjb: but see, type can (and in Ada, frequently does) encode units
2019-09-13T20:14:25Z sukaeto: I'm not sure what you mean by "provenance of the data"
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2019-09-13T20:14:43Z pjb: That is, you need to tag the data by more than types, anything, and to filter on those tags.
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2019-09-13T20:15:01Z pjb: All this to mean again that types are useless and boring. Forget about them.
2019-09-13T20:15:15Z sukaeto: pjb: that is absolutely untrue
2019-09-13T20:15:30Z pjb: Start by writing a unit system first.
2019-09-13T20:16:10Z aeth: sukaeto: Afaik, pjb is against gradual typing, so while CL implementations are able to support it, pjb argues against this.
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2019-09-13T20:16:22Z sukaeto: if you're looking at a system like Java or C and you think that what they offer is all there is to type systems, then I can understand how you'd get that impression
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2019-09-13T20:17:00Z pjb: I don't mind the compiler doing its job and signaling type inconsistencies early.   But I don't want to have write anything about it.
2019-09-13T20:17:09Z whartung: an example of provenance of data, sukaeto, is Perls taint system
2019-09-13T20:17:09Z sukaeto: pjb: oh, you're saying that types in Lisp are useless and boring?
2019-09-13T20:17:20Z sukaeto: if so, sorry I misunderstood
2019-09-13T20:17:26Z pjb: sukaeto: declaring them, yes.
2019-09-13T20:17:56Z sukaeto: given that I don't really think about types much beyond "this thing should be a number" or "this method specializes over these classes", I could probably agree with you there :-)
2019-09-13T20:17:56Z pjb: Checking them, most of the time.  The programmer will too often be too specific in his type specifications.
2019-09-13T20:18:18Z sukaeto: don't really think about types much *when programming in Lisp*, to be clear
2019-09-13T20:18:30Z pjb: thankfully.
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2019-09-13T20:18:51Z pjb: CL doesn't force you to think much about them.
2019-09-13T20:19:12Z sukaeto: well, CL's strengths lie along other dimensions
2019-09-13T20:19:12Z whartung: I honestly use types in two places: one, when reading code just so I know what I’m looking at ,and 2, when refactoring to have the compiler let me know when I break things.
2019-09-13T20:19:53Z aeth: Ime, it really depends on what you do. For functions used by macros, types are incredibly useless. You want to basically be able to handle anything that is thrown at you in a given variable. If you're working with numbers, arrays of numbers, structs of arrays of numbers, etc., you absolutely wind up writing the 100th defun-with-more-convenient-type-declarations macro at some point.
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2019-09-13T20:20:40Z aeth: (By incredibly useless in macros, I mean type declarations or even check-types. What you'd probably do at most is a typecase)
2019-09-13T20:21:08Z sukaeto: I can hot patch my running system in Lisp.  I can just call anything that's been loaded at the REPL.  When I hit bugs in development, the debugger just pops up and I get an interactive stack trace. Same with the profiler, it's just right there.  I don't have to run the code with special flags to get it to dump some file that then has to be interpreted by another tool to give me output with the stuff I care
2019-09-13T20:21:10Z sukaeto: about buried amongst stuff I don't care about.
2019-09-13T20:21:14Z sukaeto: none of these things are true for ADa
2019-09-13T20:21:57Z sukaeto: Ada, even
2019-09-13T20:22:31Z TMA: thinking about types helps me even in CL; but to be frank those are not the CL-types, these are more domain specific. (length-in-meters instead of number, sequence-of-issue-ids instead of list or list-of-integers)
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2019-09-13T20:24:09Z sukaeto: TMA: and Ada gives you the power to codify those things in your type declarations
2019-09-13T20:24:14Z pjb: But when you write your code, you should distinguish parts that are very sepcific to meters and issue-ids, and the rest of the algorithms that work on reals or list of integers  (note, numbers are not lengths! Only real are lengths! you got your typing wrong (this is why you should let the compiler do it!)).
2019-09-13T20:24:27Z aeth: sukaeto: Ironically, C++, which everyone loves to hate, is probably one of the best of those rigid (more than just merely "static" imo) languages as far as runtime debugging goes. I mean, yes, you do get a vommit of error messages where only the first one is relevant if it's at compile, but if you want to look at something semi-interactively, you can just define << for it and print it.
2019-09-13T20:24:36Z pjb: What I'm saying is that 90% of your code will be generic code dealing with lists of whatever or lists of integers, or reals.
2019-09-13T20:24:36Z aeth: Assuming, of course, that you can recompile it fast enough to make it almost interactive!
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2019-09-13T20:26:06Z aeth: pjb: It *really* depends on what you're doing
2019-09-13T20:26:48Z aeth: pjb: If your "reals" are best modeled by floats, suddenly you probably are thinking about types and declarations, at least a bit. And if you're just handling text, you can probably just work with streams and not really worry about types that much because FORMAT is usually smart enough with ~A
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2019-09-13T20:28:08Z TMA: sukaeto: as does haskell. haskellers are proud in that they manage to squeeze a lot into the type system
2019-09-13T20:28:33Z sukaeto: TMA: yeah, Haskell is another language with a really rich type system
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2019-09-13T20:28:52Z sukaeto: I don't have a ton of experience with it, though
2019-09-13T20:29:02Z aeth: The reason I'm using CL instead of a more ideologically pure language is precisely because CL the language is less ideological than e.g. pjb is. If your code is almost all generic, good. It works. If your code isn't and it's almost all single-float/double-float, good. It also still works. It's incredibly multiparadigm because it doesn't force you into a way of thinking that's bad for certain domains.
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2019-09-13T20:29:44Z aeth: Of course, on Ada, the point is specifically to not give you that freedom, because if your numerical code is for rockets, you don't want the rocket to explode if the units are wrong.
2019-09-13T20:30:30Z sukaeto: well, you've got plenty of freedom in Ada.  You just have to be judicious about telling the compiler when you want to take liberties and when you want it to complain at you.
2019-09-13T20:30:33Z aeth: The SLIME debugger can't currently pause reality if a bug happens.
2019-09-13T20:32:11Z sukaeto: people will always ask on #ada things like "why do I get an error when I try to use type X instead of type Y" (where X and Y are two different integer types or some such)
2019-09-13T20:32:36Z sukaeto: to which the answer is "Why did you define them that way if it wasn't what you wanted, silly?"
2019-09-13T20:32:44Z pjb: aeth: you keep getting it wrong.  Your reals are not modeled by floats.  When you say length it means order. < works only on real, not on complex.  Writing your code for float is wrong, because there are also ratios!  3/4 is a perfectly good length.
2019-09-13T20:32:58Z pjb: as is 3 which is an integer.
2019-09-13T20:33:47Z aeth: pjb: Writing your code just for floating-point numbers is wrong, but it's wrong in a very well-studied, well-known way with algorithms written by people smarter than I that you can implement to work with them.
2019-09-13T20:34:02Z aeth: The main problem is if you force floats on everyone, e.g. JavaScript.
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2019-09-13T20:34:24Z pjb: ok, but you're not writing lisp code then.  You might be transfering C or fortran code to lisp.
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2019-09-13T20:34:56Z aeth: pjb: And TAGBDOY will help you manually translate those FORTRAN programs into Lisp, too.
2019-09-13T20:35:06Z pjb: Yep.
2019-09-13T20:35:10Z aeth: That's something that a more ideologically pure language would absolutely not give you
2019-09-13T20:35:31Z aeth: pjb: In practice, though, LOOP with :of-type is what I tend to use when I'm translating numerical stuff into CL, though. Gives you pretty much everything you need.
2019-09-13T20:36:00Z aeth: (and it looks pretty close to the pseudocode (or not-CL) source, too)
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2019-09-13T20:39:43Z aeth: pjb: I hope one day someone writes BLAS from scratch with CL (particularly SBCL's optimizations) in mind. Those Fortran to CL translators produce terrible numerical SBCL if you disassemble it (not surprising because they probably predate SBCL and maybe even CMUCL). Handwritten CL can do much better.
2019-09-13T20:41:24Z aeth: And similarly, I hope that (almost) no one directly uses that library since it would be so incredibly non-idiomatic.
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2019-09-13T20:45:08Z aeth: pjb: Imo, though, for some tasks you have two options: (1) write Fortran or C in your language; or, (2) write FFI code to call into optimized Fortran/C/C++ libraries. And I'm glad CL is in the category that permits option 1 because native libraries with foreign dependencies are often hard to work with and because even just writing C-in-CL looks more idiomatic than wrapping C in CL.
2019-09-13T20:45:38Z pjb: Granted, option 1 is better than FFI.
2019-09-13T20:46:30Z pjb: But if you can solve your problem with symbolic algorithms, it probably be be better than with numeric algorithms. Anyways, for numeric, you won't beat cuda or tesla processors.
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2019-09-13T20:47:39Z aeth: Cuda is for embarrassingly parallel afaik. And even there, sometimes memory latency going CPU to GPU and back will make it slower, again afaik.
2019-09-13T20:48:27Z aeth: As for symbolic being better, there are two issues with that that I know of. (1) Some things can only be solved numerically (in particular, some differential equations). (2) Even when a symbolic solution can be done, sometimes it's too slow.
2019-09-13T20:49:14Z aeth: As far as software bloat/expansion goes, eventually every symbolic system evolves to support numerical as well, for those reasons, and possibly some more. I guess Lisp in a sense can be seen as a case of this.
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2019-09-13T21:02:27Z ralt: SIMD is what you need for embarassingly-parallel-on-CPU, no?
2019-09-13T21:02:31Z whartung: how are common block done in CL?
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2019-09-13T21:04:34Z aeth: ralt: Ideally, something like BLAS-on-CL would be written in portable CL as a fallback for architectures/implementations not supported, and use SIMD asm where possible, like SBCL-on-x86-64. So it wouldn't be a simple task.
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2019-09-13T21:14:49Z aeth: And for the GPU, we have SPIR-V now.
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2019-09-13T21:47:48Z mgsk: Any package recommendations for a short lambda reader macro?
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2019-09-13T21:51:37Z aeth: mgsk: What are you looking for? For me, I just use an emacs thing (minor mode?) that turns "lambda" when typed into the Greek letter. As long as you don't have a multi-line lambda list (arguments list) it won't mess with indentation in the final source code. And if it is that complicated that you have multiple lines of arguments, it probably shouldn't be a lambda.
2019-09-13T21:52:08Z aeth: (If it is a multi-line lambda list then the subsequent arguments past the first line will be aligned for one character of the Greek letter when they should be aligned for 6, so that's where the illusion breaks down, by messing up the indentation)
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2019-09-13T21:52:42Z aeth: It's called pretty-lambdada
2019-09-13T21:53:24Z aeth: It will work correctly for single-line lambdas (as long as you don't have a hard line length limit) and multi-line lambdas with single-line lambda lists like (lambda (x y z)\n...)
2019-09-13T21:54:46Z aeth: I think there's another emacs minor-mode that is more general (i.e. doing more substitutions, not just lambda), but of course that might have more edge cases that will mess up formatting. lambda just has that one (very rare) edge case.
2019-09-13T21:55:04Z mgsk: aeth: i know you know what i'm asking
2019-09-13T21:56:02Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @mgsk; retype question, please.
2019-09-13T21:56:12Z aeth: Well, that's "short lambda" in the literal sense of shortening "lambda". There are other possible short lambdas, like (lambda (x y z) ...) into #[x y z : ...] or something, or maybe (lambda (x) ...) into #[...] where x is now an implicit _
2019-09-13T21:57:43Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (reduce (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) (list 1 2 3)) => 6
2019-09-13T21:57:48Z aeth: Of course, substituting "lambda" for "λ" (in several ways, including in the source code or locally in Emacs) gets you most of the way in terms of conciseness, especially once you take into account the extra # most reader macros will add.
2019-09-13T21:59:19Z Oladon_work: Huh, that substitution is a nice idea.
2019-09-13T21:59:56Z aeth: Especially since lambdas are almost always one-liners, or with a newline after the lambda-list (not in the middle of it) so it doesn't affect formatting
2019-09-13T22:00:09Z mgsk: I suppose it's one of those things that seems nice in theory, and when you have a tonne of throw-away lambdas scattered around. But in practice, it doesn't save you much.
2019-09-13T22:00:25Z mgsk: This leans in the direction I was thinking: https://github.com/cbaggers/fn
2019-09-13T22:00:28Z moldybits: i think it looks nice
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2019-09-13T22:02:39Z Oladon_work: moldybits: I agree
2019-09-13T22:02:55Z aeth: mgsk: yes, but that should be #λ not λ imo. So now you have #λ(+ _ _) vs. (λ (_) (+ _ _)) and you don't gain much at all and it's super-niche.
2019-09-13T22:03:33Z madand: Hi all. For 1- or 2-argument lambdas have a look at https://github.com/vseloved/rutils/blob/master/docs/tutorial.md#user-content-readtables
2019-09-13T22:03:40Z aeth: and really imo it should be #λ((+ _ _)) because most lambda bodies aren't going to be just one expression (usually you can just use #'+ directly if you're in that situation)
2019-09-13T22:03:52Z Oladon_work: moldybits: And it's not like you're substituting some random character (*coughRubycough*); λ _is_ Lambda.
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2019-09-13T22:09:53Z moldybits: i wish more symbols were used in code
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2019-09-13T22:14:49Z aeth: Well, that's more #apl than #lisp
2019-09-13T22:15:33Z aeth: Some Lispers don't like the few symbols that are used, like +, *, /, and -, but those are probably justifiable because they're more familiar than the letters and they're easy to type.
2019-09-13T22:15:46Z aeth: s/than the letters/than the words/
2019-09-13T22:16:02Z moldybits: really?
2019-09-13T22:16:12Z moldybits: what do they think is wrong with symbols
2019-09-13T22:17:02Z aeth: iirc, early Lisp didn't really use any symbols in the identifier names, which is why we have string= for case-sensitive string equality and string-equal for case-insensitive. Backwards compatibility! The old way was case-insensitive and its name remains
2019-09-13T22:17:26Z aeth: and then you have Scheme which sort of embraces symbols more, which is how you get ? and !
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2019-09-13T22:23:57Z aeth: I'm pretty sure some historic Lisps didn't use +, -, *, and / iirc
2019-09-13T22:24:08Z aeth: I'm not sure if it was PLUS or ADD
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2019-09-13T22:25:03Z Bike: lisp 1.5 has plus.
2019-09-13T22:25:17Z Bike: but add1 for 1+... okay then
2019-09-13T22:25:54Z aeth: I'm surprised it wasn't INC and DEC, since they probably already had INCF and DECF at that point
2019-09-13T22:26:25Z Bike: nope.
2019-09-13T22:26:34Z pjb: mgsk: why do you want a package?  (set-macro-character #\λ (lambda (s c) (declare (ignore s)) `(cl:lambda ,(read s) ,(read s)))) (mapcar λ (x) (* 2 x) '(1 2 3)) #| --> (2 4 6) |#
2019-09-13T22:26:46Z Bike: there's a (SETQ V (ADD1 V)) in here, even
2019-09-13T22:26:59Z Bike: no setf in lisp 1.5.
2019-09-13T22:27:32Z pjb: aeth: or pred succ; but that was because Pascal came only in 1969…
2019-09-13T22:29:28Z Bike: i mean, there are no macros at all, i don't think
2019-09-13T22:32:54Z aeth: If LISP 1.5 has no macros is it even a Lisp?
2019-09-13T22:33:16Z aeth: (Yes, that's a joke based on all of those "What is Lisp?" debates that the Internet loves to have.)
2019-09-13T22:39:50Z LdBeth: Then it has fexpr
2019-09-13T22:41:33Z Bike: i don't think 1.5 has fexprs either
2019-09-13T22:41:41Z pjb: Yes, it has them.
2019-09-13T22:42:47Z pjb: https://pastebin.com/HRWsUJqc
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2019-09-14T00:04:28Z eigenhombre: I finally figured out my `cffl` problems; posted solution here: https://stackoverflow.com/a/57931463/611752. The problem seems to have been a bunch of outdated Homebrew packages.
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2019-09-14T00:09:47Z pjb: eigenhombre: that's one problem of cffi (and ffi in general): they use a static definition of foreign objects that is generally taken from C header sources (tripple whammy!).
2019-09-14T00:10:32Z pjb: eigenhombre: at least, ccl tries to go thru ffigen to use a definition database, but ffigen is bitrotten, so it's not easy to generate new ffigen databases for random libraries.
2019-09-14T00:11:39Z pjb: eigenhombre: in any case, the only «"'reasonable'"» approach would be to retrieve the foreign object definitions from the DWARF debug info, but it's not often available in any case.
2019-09-14T00:11:57Z pjb: Just say No! to FFI.
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2019-09-14T00:14:54Z eigenhombre: pjb: Thanks! I would prefer not to use FFI at all but want `curses` or equivalent... any other approaches I should look at?
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2019-09-14T00:20:22Z Josh_2: aeth: what is the difference between a symbolic algorithm and a numeric one?
2019-09-14T00:22:26Z no-defun-allowed: for integration, "symbolic" would be going from x^2 to x^3/3, "numeric" would be going from x^2 from 0 to 1 to 1/3, one works with numbers, and the other just symbols
2019-09-14T00:22:49Z Josh_2: ah
2019-09-14T00:22:50Z pjb: eigenhombre: eg. solving x^2+2x+1=0 numerically may give you -1.00001 and -0.999999  numerically and -1 and -1 (the integers) symbolically.
2019-09-14T00:22:50Z Josh_2: right
2019-09-14T00:23:28Z eigenhombre: 🙂
2019-09-14T00:23:42Z pjb: sorry s/eigenhombre/Josh_2/
2019-09-14T00:24:00Z no-defun-allowed: (if you had a better integral that converged, eg 1/x, you could integrate from -∞ to ∞)
2019-09-14T00:25:18Z pjb: eigenhombre: using cl-charm thru FFI should be ok once you get it working.  The difficulty here is the termcap or terminfo database, which is arcane.   In this modern world, we could implement a terminfo database reader, and then use the control code obtained to issue them ourselves in a curses package written purely in lisp.  It is difficult to do it conformingly because this requires binary I/O on the terminal, which is not defi
2019-09-14T00:25:18Z pjb: the standard.
2019-09-14T00:26:12Z pjb: eigenhombre: so there's no really good solution.  A good solution would involve writing a CDR to specify binary I/O on unix tty and windows console terminals, and to use it to implement the above pure lisp curses.
2019-09-14T00:27:14Z eigenhombre: pjb: Maybe a little more ambitious than my use case to start with, which is implementing a roguelike :-) But that's interesting, thank you!
2019-09-14T00:27:16Z pjb: eigenhombre: this would also involve parsing and understanding the C curses code, in which I expect a lot of special cases and terminal specific heuristics to be encoded. Ie. the knowledge of how to use the terminfo database.
2019-09-14T00:27:51Z pjb: eigenhombre: yes, but that's one problem: everybody wants to use ncurses for a little program, so nobody improves the lisp ecosystem.
2019-09-14T00:28:00Z eigenhombre: Fair enough
2019-09-14T00:28:31Z eigenhombre: It sounds though like it's not only a lisp ecosystem issue -- I know curses is like 40 years old or something....
2019-09-14T00:28:34Z pjb: This is where you would need to win the lotto or sell a multi-hundred-millions startup, to finance such (usele$$) lisp developments.
2019-09-14T00:29:12Z pjb: eigenhombre: The thing is that people still may use 50 years old terminals of various kinds.
2019-09-14T00:30:21Z eigenhombre: Right, you mean for embedded / old consoles built into old infrastructure...?
2019-09-14T00:30:43Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8h2SenYOKc
2019-09-14T00:31:14Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ul-f3hPJQM
2019-09-14T00:32:00Z pjb: and run on linux CL programs that will have their *terminal-io* connected to such devices.
2019-09-14T00:32:39Z pjb: eigenhombre: it's also not entirely geeky; some professionnal environment still use such old devices for various good-enough reasons.
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2019-09-14T00:33:37Z eigenhombre: Hah, I *had* one of those VT100 terminals on my desk in college
2019-09-14T00:33:51Z eigenhombre dates himself
2019-09-14T00:34:50Z pjb: OR, you can throw all that away, and design a new package for 2D textual interfaces. You might base it on emacs, or on some specific terminal emulator (but a lot of people would question you supporting a specific one such as Linux; perhaps using ECMA-048 would be ok, but not all terminal emulators support all the ECMA-048 features (hence back to terminfo)).
2019-09-14T00:35:51Z pjb: wyse terminals were nice too: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Refurbished-Amber-Screen-Wyse-55-Terminal-901237-07-WY-55-with-PCE-Keyboard/292313662783?epid=669517948&hash=item440f40853f:g:rNcAAOxy7nNTSXla
2019-09-14T00:37:21Z pjb: anyways, nowadays most end-users will be behind a mobile web browser or a ms-windows box. So perhaps you only need to support that.
2019-09-14T00:38:18Z pjb: see things like shell-in-a-box.
2019-09-14T00:39:08Z pjb: Or just wait for AI singurlarity; this will solve all those problems for us once and for all.
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2019-09-14T01:41:04Z verisimilitude: Look no further, eigenhombre: http://verisimilitudes.net/2018-04-04
2019-09-14T01:41:51Z verisimilitude: Risking memory leaks shouldn't be necessary to control a terminal device.
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2019-09-14T01:49:17Z aeth: Josh_2: Symbolic math is roughly what you learned in school, with a handful of exceptions like Euler's method (if you learned that in school... or maybe quite a few more exceptions if you e.g. specifically took a numerical class in the math or comp sci department at a university).
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2019-09-14T01:50:46Z aeth: So e.g. symbolic integration is applying a big series of rules to attempt to reverse integration, including ones you'd learn in Calculus II and ones that are far too complicated for anyone but a computer to do.
2019-09-14T01:51:15Z aeth: And numerical integration looks like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_integration#Adaptive_algorithms
2019-09-14T01:52:50Z aeth: As a rule of thumb, never write your own algorithms in this domain, just apply what you read on Wikipedia or in a book.
2019-09-14T01:53:21Z emma: what are some reasons that we still enjoy lisp and would like to use it instead of some alternative
2019-09-14T01:55:32Z verisimilitude: I like the machine independence, the ability to be lazy through metaprogramming, and how Lisp is particularly suited to programs that are vague in every way as they're being written.
2019-09-14T01:56:16Z aeth: emma: My elevator pitch for Lisps is always syntactic representations of languages rather than using text-based templates. HTML is far from the only thing you can do this with (see: CSS, JS, SQL, GLSL, JSON, XML, CSV, etc.), but it's probably the simplest example.
2019-09-14T01:56:23Z verisimilitude: That is, Lisp is good for exploratory programming.
2019-09-14T01:57:23Z aeth: emma: In mainstream languages you'd use a template system like this to embed logic within .html files that then get processed textually to do your substitutions. <html> ... <body> <p> Hello, {{username}}! </p> </body> </html> might be what it looks like using something like https://mustache.github.io/
2019-09-14T01:58:36Z aeth: emma: In a Lisp, you'd be more likely to do something like this: `(:html ... (:body (:p "Hello, " ,username "!"))) and generate the final HTML string at the end, after working on it structurally, perhaps in functions or perhaps in macros (or both!)
2019-09-14T01:59:09Z aeth: So you get the full language, without the mess of having to embed it (and possibly escape certain characters) or using some DSL or something else.
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2019-09-14T01:59:43Z emma: hm, interesting. Thank you for your thoughts on that.
2019-09-14T01:59:45Z aeth: And it's not much, I wrote something to generate HTML in a few days, with this test generation: https://gitlab.com/snippets/1892940#L83-115
2019-09-14T02:01:22Z aeth: no parsing necessary
2019-09-14T02:03:04Z aeth: I was thinking about how I'd do the same thing in C++ and it's not pretty. First, I'd have to make a gigantic enum of all of the tags instead of just using keywords that don't have to be aware of anything (with the exception of the HTML empty elements like br that turn into <br> or <br /> instead of <br></br>).
2019-09-14T02:03:45Z aeth: And then I'd have to make a linked list where the head is one of those enums and the tail is either a string or another enum representing attributes (again, with me having to enumerate all of them instead of just using keywords). And visually, the end result would look pretty weird.
2019-09-14T02:04:57Z aeth: And I wouldn't be able to trivially turn that into a syntactic macro. I can do that in CL since my function takes in a quoted s-expression as its main input.
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2019-09-14T02:23:36Z verisimilitude: An issue with Lisp is that it can be odd moving to a new language.  I've been learning Ada for a while now and it's not always easy to plan a program out in the detail required, down to the types, and I'm inclined to believe being so accustomed to Common Lisp is part of the reason.
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2019-09-14T02:27:05Z aeth: verisimilitude: give nearly everything its own type and if you change what its type is later on, you just change one line instead of many
2019-09-14T02:27:18Z aeth: Might not work well in Ada specifically (see: the earlier conversation here)
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2019-09-14T02:28:21Z aeth: If foo is type Foo, then things are easy
2019-09-14T02:28:26Z verisimilitude: Yes.
2019-09-14T02:29:22Z aeth: Also, pick a domain that fits the language, if you're just learning it on your own. CL is much better than most languages at the sort of text generation that I was talking about earlier with my HTML example. But if you're doing something that is mostly double floats or something, then that solves most of the type issues in a static language.
2019-09-14T02:29:23Z verisimilitude: In particular, I've strangled myself with the flexibility of Common Lisp for one program; it works in Common Lisp and I wanted to rewrite it in Ada, yet I find the idea lacks the structure necessary, so I'm going to need to rewrite the Common Lisp before I can get a good idea of how to write it in Ada.
2019-09-14T02:30:04Z aeth: Oh, and generally, try to avoid linked lists and trees and graphs etc. in such languages. So much harder. Not sure about the details of Ada, though
2019-09-14T02:30:41Z verisimilitude: Ada 2012 has standard doubly-linked lists, trees, sets, and other such things in its container library.
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2019-09-14T02:31:20Z verisimilitude: Where one may use a hash-table in CL, one can usually use a simple array in Ada, though.
2019-09-14T02:31:36Z red-dot: minion: registration, please?
2019-09-14T02:31:36Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=d20b6b3c will be valid until 02:45 UTC.
2019-09-14T02:32:42Z aeth: verisimilitude: Yes, but it's not GCed (by default) afaik, which makes such allocation-heavy stuff way harder imo.
2019-09-14T02:33:07Z aeth: (Well, allocation-heavy in that sense, vs. an adjustable vector that just keeps allocating to the end but keeps it as one thing)
2019-09-14T02:33:19Z verisimilitude: It can use GC, but it doesn't.  There's not much dynamic allocation, actually, as most things can be allocated on the stack.
2019-09-14T02:34:37Z verisimilitude: Another nicety of Ada are the pragmas which permit specifying certain things never occur along with banning implementation-specific functionality, etc.
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2019-09-14T02:48:40Z aeth: verisimilitude: Have you ever tried (declare (dynamic-extent foo)) in CL? You can get surprisingly far in SBCL.
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2019-09-14T02:50:38Z verisimilitude: I've written some macros that generate such declarations, but I don't tend to use it manually.
2019-09-14T02:51:21Z verisimilitude: I should probably go through some of my programs and start adding declarations where they can't cause issues.
2019-09-14T02:57:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-09-14T02:59:23Z aeth: good morning beach
2019-09-14T02:59:35Z sukaeto: aeth: the thing about HTML templating engines is that they're not designed for programmers, they're designed for UX/design people
2019-09-14T02:59:41Z sukaeto: SQL would probably be a better example
2019-09-14T02:59:59Z sukaeto: things like sxql are great
2019-09-14T03:00:08Z sukaeto: so much better than e.g. sqlalchemy
2019-09-14T03:02:45Z aeth: sukaeto: The thing about representing something like HTML in s-expressions is that once you get that initial representation that goes from a direct mapping to a string (with all of the relevant escaping) you can do whatever you want with it as prior steps in a process. For instance, I'm not going to write my HTML documents directly in the style of the Gitlab snippit I linked to earlier.
2019-09-14T03:03:00Z aeth: I'm going to parse Markdown into s-expressions, and then transform them into those HTML s-expressions.
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2019-09-14T03:03:51Z aeth: sukaeto: You're allowed a level of polish in tooling that most people (even most people in the CL community) never get to. CL is really a language for writing declarative languages (which is also probably why SQL-in-s-expressions doesn't really seem like it needs many more layers)
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2019-09-14T05:13:20Z pjb: In lesser languages such as C or Ada, managing types is easy: just use pointers to structures for everything.
2019-09-14T05:13:43Z pjb: Ie. basically, do OO programming :-)
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2019-09-14T05:36:32Z aeth: Well, C and C++ and similar languages add an extra level of complexity in API choice that you don't see in CL. Basically, pass by reference vs value. i.e. (at least C-style pass by value) your choice is a pointer vs. copying-everything.
2019-09-14T05:41:38Z beach: What language does pass-by-reference?
2019-09-14T05:42:10Z pjb: generally, it's optional. Pascal has it, with var parameters. Modula-2 with INOUT parameters, etc.
2019-09-14T05:42:15Z aeth: beach: No, what I meant is that for every function you make, you have this mental overhead of whether or not to do foo or &foo and there's probably even a line in object size where it's more efficient to do one or the other, and it's a lot of thinking
2019-09-14T05:42:35Z beach: Sure.
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2019-09-14T05:47:54Z aeth: It gets pretty bad in C++ more than C because you want to do OOP like everyone else, so you're doing a lot of Foo *foo that you call with &foo (except when you don't) and that means that in a lot of places you're having to do (*foo)[whatever] or (*foo)(whatever) or whatever << (*foo) and it quickly turns into a mess
2019-09-14T05:49:06Z aeth: At least compilers are pretty good at telling you (in the first of 200 lines, which you then have to scroll up to read) when you should have used foo instead of &foo to call the function that wants Foo *foo.
2019-09-14T05:52:33Z aeth: It's definitely not easy to bolt OOP onto C.
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2019-09-14T05:54:20Z aeth: (I'm not sure about Ada and if it addresses this. I wouldn't be surprised if Pascal is similar.)
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2019-09-14T06:00:51Z beach: In metamodular.com/modular-c.pdf I recommend programming with pointers only and using something like the Boehm-Weiser automatic memory manager.  Uniform reference semantics is the only sane way of programming.
2019-09-14T06:02:34Z pjb: Exactly.
2019-09-14T06:02:43Z aeth: I wonder if there's a way to get something like CL semantics... basically, pointers except when it fits in a machine word? I guess not that simple.
2019-09-14T06:04:26Z pjb: aeth: it wouldn't be safe C. It's better to write pure C code, (C code that is defined by the standard).
2019-09-14T06:04:36Z beach: That's not Common Lisp "semantics", that's a Common Lisp implementation trick.
2019-09-14T06:05:44Z aeth: pjb: Wouldn't it be even better to compile a C ABI-compatible binary, but with much Lispier semantics where possible? Technically, only the interop would matter.
2019-09-14T06:05:58Z aeth: (I guess some could argue that C++ is slowly heading in that direction.)
2019-09-14T06:12:23Z pjb: aeth: libecl!
2019-09-14T06:15:02Z aeth: pjb: I don't think that counts because of the runtime. So I guess this is necessarily off-topic except for the obvious choice of the compiler language
2019-09-14T06:15:51Z aeth: pjb: If such a language existed, you could potentially rewrite ECL in it, though. Then ECL wouldn't need a C compiler, too, since it could just do ECL->this-hypothetical-language->ECL
2019-09-14T06:16:34Z pjb: aeth: the point is that when you adopt a stereotyped programming style, you necessarily use a run-time.
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2019-09-14T07:40:23Z verisimilitude: With Ada, it's not defined whether copying or referencing occurs with in out parameters, sans some special cases such as limited objects.
2019-09-14T07:42:14Z beach: The fact that SBCL no longer complains when there is a DEFMETHOD but no associated DEFGENERIC does not suit me at all.  My worsening dyslexia results in numerous spelling errors that are not caught.
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2019-09-14T07:49:02Z beach:  I guess I could turn on the spell checker for the code as well.
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2019-09-14T08:00:19Z saturn2: beach: (shadow 'defmethod) (defmacro defmethod (name &rest rest) `(if (typep (symbol-function ',name) 'generic-function) (cl:defmethod ,name ,@rest) (error "~A is not a generic function" ',name)))
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2019-09-14T08:02:04Z beach: saturn2: Yeah, I could do something like that.
2019-09-14T08:02:34Z beach: Not that particular one, though.
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2019-09-14T08:15:11Z Shinmera wonders if a general utility to check all symbols for a close Levenshtein distance would be useful
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2019-09-14T08:19:30Z pjb: Shinmera: it could.
2019-09-14T08:20:51Z pjb: Here I have a tool to check for "duplicate" symbols, ie. symbols with the same name interned in different packages. https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/tools/symbol.lisp#L133
2019-09-14T08:21:04Z pjb: For when you make package definition errors.
2019-09-14T08:21:19Z pjb: But checking for symbols with similar names in the same package would also be useful.
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2019-09-14T09:10:04Z francogrex: hi
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2019-09-14T11:44:57Z no-defun-allowed: Is there an implementation of A* pathfinding in Common Lisp?
2019-09-14T11:48:58Z beach: Did you check in PAIP?
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2019-09-14T11:50:07Z asdf_asdf_asdf: https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp/blob/master/docs/chapter24.md
2019-09-14T11:50:16Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: Shoulda watched my streams ;) https://github.com/Shinmera/flow/blob/master/graph.lisp#L131
2019-09-14T11:50:42Z no-defun-allowed: Of course you did, and of course Norvig did too.
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2019-09-14T11:51:00Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Page 209 in PAIP.
2019-09-14T11:51:17Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks asdf_asdf_asdf, beach and Shinmera
2019-09-14T11:51:34Z no-defun-allowed: Ah yeah, it'd be in PAIP. That's a good book.
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2019-09-14T12:34:07Z SaganMan: no-defun-allowed: what's up with your nick? why no defun?
2019-09-14T12:40:43Z jonatack: Just realised how good the logs are for this channel. Thank you to the kind people who maintain them!
2019-09-14T12:42:30Z Shinmera: Thank god I hardly ever have to do anything
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2019-09-14T15:12:42Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hi. Which instruction is to get address from variable and change its value?
2019-09-14T15:12:53Z asdf_asdf_asdf: https://cpy.pt/WE1EKdhF
2019-09-14T15:14:04Z asdf_asdf_asdf:  int = 5; void a(int &n) { n = 2; } std::cout<<i; // 5 a(i); std::cout<<i; // 2
2019-09-14T15:14:40Z Bike: that's a reference, not a pointer
2019-09-14T15:14:48Z Bike: none of that in ffi
2019-09-14T15:15:32Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (SB-KERNEL::GET-LISP-OBJ-ADDRESS x)
2019-09-14T15:15:44Z Bike: oh hell, don't do that
2019-09-14T15:16:09Z Bike: i think you've been told this before, but if you insist on asking sbcl specific questions instead of using cffi, ask #sbcl. they'll probably tell you to use cffi and you should probably listen
2019-09-14T15:16:27Z Bike: there's a well defined interface. you could have figured it out months ago
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2019-09-14T15:26:38Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (set (sb-sys::int-sap (sb-kernel::get-lisp-obj-address x)) 15)
2019-09-14T15:26:43Z asdf_asdf_asdf: How fix it?
2019-09-14T15:27:02Z Shinmera: You don't.
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2019-09-14T15:34:26Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Shinmera; OK. I search instruction, that it do.
2019-09-14T15:35:03Z Bike: sbcl's garbage collector makes using the address of an object pretty fraught
2019-09-14T15:35:08Z Bike: since it could be moved out from under you any time
2019-09-14T15:35:15Z Bike: so, don't do that
2019-09-14T15:35:23Z Bike: ffi is for foreign values, not lisp objects
2019-09-14T15:37:09Z Bike: also, with fixnums, like in your attempt at a C++ analogy, it definitely won't work since they're just immediate and do not have addresses
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2019-09-14T15:38:30Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @Bike; OK. Then how change value variable inside function that will be changed outside function?
2019-09-14T15:39:23Z Bike: You cannot pass a reference like you can in C++. You can only pass values as arguments.
2019-09-14T15:39:51Z Bike: You can do things like (let ((x 2)) (print x) (funcall (lambda () (setf x 5))) (print x)), which will print 2 then 5.
2019-09-14T15:40:08Z Bike: But there's no argument pasing.
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2019-09-14T15:40:42Z Bike: Lisp just does not have references. You can pass objects and modify objects: (let ((x (cons 2))) (print (car x)) (funcall (lambda (c) (setf (car c) 5)) x) (print (car x)))
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2019-09-14T15:40:56Z Bike: er, (cons 2 nil)
2019-09-14T15:41:16Z Bike: But lisp has an entirely different model of things from C. Variables do not "have addresses".
2019-09-14T15:42:03Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @Bike; Did it mean, that every time variables has different/other/another addresses?
2019-09-14T15:42:20Z Bike: I don't understand your English.
2019-09-14T15:42:28Z Bike: But conceptually, lisp variables do not have addresses.
2019-09-14T15:42:58Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK. Address of variable is changed every time compilation?
2019-09-14T15:43:04Z Bike: No! There are no addresses!
2019-09-14T15:43:07Z Bike: Variables do not have addresses.
2019-09-14T15:43:12Z Bike: Listen to me.
2019-09-14T15:44:01Z Bike: You cannot write C in Lisp. If you want to write C, write C.
2019-09-14T15:44:04Z asdf_asdf_asdf: So, how is identified?
2019-09-14T15:44:06Z Bike: Or C++ since you want references.
2019-09-14T15:44:23Z Bike: Variables do not have a runtime presence, conceptually. They're just names.
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2019-09-14T15:45:18Z Bike: If you write something like (let ((x 2)) ...) for example, there's nothing stopping the compiler from simply storing 2 in a register, or perhaps using a different register for the same variable in different places, or maybe it will put it on the stack, or maybe it will eliminate the variable entirely and the value won't even exist in a register.
2019-09-14T15:45:22Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I have understand, that variable is like to (gensym)?
2019-09-14T15:45:45Z Bike: No.
2019-09-14T15:46:09Z Bike: I don't even know what that means.
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2019-09-14T15:46:36Z Bike: I don't think you do either.
2019-09-14T15:46:39Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Variable have likeness (gensym)?
2019-09-14T15:46:43Z Bike: Stop.
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2019-09-14T15:46:59Z Bike: Read a book. Something. Learn to program. You have no conceptual background.
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2019-09-14T15:47:56Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK. So, why in SBCL are instruction such as get-lisp-obj-address, int-sap, etc?
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2019-09-14T15:50:27Z Shinmera: Bike: I think it would be best not to continue this conversation.
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2019-09-14T15:53:33Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK. Thanks for answer. I maybe do other tasks.
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2019-09-14T16:00:12Z Bike: Shinmera: yes, my bad
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2019-09-14T18:08:11Z ap13: minion: registration, please?
2019-09-14T18:08:12Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=69fe575d will be valid until 18:15 UTC.
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2019-09-14T18:10:01Z ap13: minion: registration, please?
2019-09-14T18:10:01Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=69fe575d will be valid until 18:15 UTC.
2019-09-14T18:12:06Z pjb: ap13: Yay! I know your secret! 69fe575d  send me bitcoins, or else!
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2019-09-14T19:13:30Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hi again. (describe (function sb-alien::define-alien-callback)). How it fix?
2019-09-14T19:13:50Z asdf_asdf_asdf: The :macro name SB-ALIEN::DEFINE-ALIEN-CALLBACK was found as the argument to FUNCTION.
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2019-09-14T19:18:10Z verisimilitude: Based on the message you gave, you're giving an invalid argument to FUNCTION, it seems.
2019-09-14T19:18:28Z verisimilitude: My suggestion, asdf_asdf_asdf, is to avoid writing C when one is ostensibly writing Common Lisp.
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2019-09-14T19:21:57Z jonatack: asdf_asdf_asdf: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Foreign-Function-Interface
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2019-09-14T19:22:44Z kpoeck: (describe 'sb-alien::define-alien-callback)
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2019-09-14T19:22:53Z jonatack: asdf_asdf_asdf: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Step_002dBy_002dStep-Example-of-the-Foreign-Function-Interface
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2019-09-14T19:29:38Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Thanks all for help. Especially kpoeck, it works. Thanks. I thinked, that is a fuction not a symbol.
2019-09-14T19:31:12Z kpoeck: have a look at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_descri.htm
2019-09-14T19:31:36Z kpoeck: as others said, you need to study the language more
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2019-09-14T19:33:14Z kpoeck: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ should be your friend
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2019-09-14T20:08:03Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hi again. Which function is to definition callback without body? https://cpy.pt/F8nzKM7a
2019-09-14T20:13:56Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Lambda-list: (SB-ALIEN::NAME SB-ALIEN::RESULT-TYPE SB-ALIEN::TYPED-LAMBDA-LIST)
2019-09-14T20:14:09Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I want it. Which function do?
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2019-09-14T20:17:44Z asdf_asdf_asdf: LRESULT CALLBACK WindowProc(HWND, UINT, WPARAM, LPARAM);
2019-09-14T20:17:52Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Without body callback.
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2019-09-14T20:26:32Z asdf_asdf_asdf: SB-ALIEN::PARSE-CALLBACK-SPECIFICATION It's probably what I want.
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2019-09-14T20:40:45Z puchacz: hi, does numcl work for anybody?
2019-09-14T20:41:16Z puchacz: I tried (matmul ....) from the example and it failed
2019-09-14T20:41:27Z puchacz: it is a bleeding edge I know
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2019-09-14T20:42:50Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @puchcz; what's argument You want?
2019-09-14T20:42:53Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @puchacz*
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2019-09-14T20:43:26Z puchacz: asdf_asdf_asdf: how about (matmul #2A((0.0 1.0) (2.0 3.0)) #2A((5.0 6.0) (7.0 8.0)))
2019-09-14T20:44:43Z puchacz: I am getting this: https://pastebin.com/Pjk4aK2R
2019-09-14T20:44:47Z asdf_asdf_asdf: What You have after (describe 'matmul)?
2019-09-14T20:45:54Z puchacz: asdf_asdf_asdf: I got this: https://pastebin.com/yvAmKAP5
2019-09-14T20:49:13Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Which error You get?
2019-09-14T20:50:07Z puchacz: asdf_asdf_asdf: see above, my first paste: https://pastebin.com/Pjk4aK2R
2019-09-14T20:50:21Z puchacz: have you got it installed?
2019-09-14T20:51:13Z asdf_asdf_asdf: No, but You don't use matmul. Let's go on #lisp-pl.
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2019-09-14T22:30:48Z davd: Hi there! Does someone know of some remote lisp job? :)
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2019-09-14T22:47:35Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hi. (sb-alien::define-alien-routine ...) How define a body of this routine?
2019-09-14T22:48:28Z no-defun-allowed: You don't. That's to define an external C function.
2019-09-14T22:49:15Z no-defun-allowed: And if you're going to use SBCL internals, #sbcl is probably more appropriate, else please use CFFI (and cffi:defcfun).
2019-09-14T22:52:19Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK, thanks. So I must use (defun from CL?
2019-09-14T22:53:04Z no-defun-allowed: If you're going to make a Common Lisp function, always use DEFUN.
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2019-09-14T22:53:52Z no-defun-allowed: Now, could you do us a favour and learn Common Lisp before trying to get FFI working please?
2019-09-14T22:54:32Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I prefer SBCL internals.
2019-09-14T22:54:53Z no-defun-allowed: Then piss off.
2019-09-14T22:55:19Z no-defun-allowed: That's all I have to say. Sorry, it's not very nice, but you are better served using C if you solely want to call C from SBCL.
2019-09-14T22:56:15Z asdf_asdf_asdf: This is Your opinion.
2019-09-14T22:56:31Z asdf_asdf_asdf: You can't force me to use FFI.
2019-09-14T22:57:05Z no-defun-allowed: No, I can't, but I really think you should learn Lisp before trying to learn how to use any FFI.
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2019-09-14T22:57:38Z no-defun-allowed: Using unportable SBCL internals (which aren't even external to sb-alien!) is a bad idea too.
2019-09-14T22:58:04Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I should learn Common Lisp and internals compiler e.g. SBCL.
2019-09-14T22:58:28Z no-defun-allowed: You should learn Common Lisp and CFFI.
2019-09-14T22:59:34Z asdf_asdf_asdf: No, because I want learn to assembly x86-64 and yourself write instructions for example to Common Lisp.
2019-09-14T23:00:11Z no-defun-allowed: Then learn assembly and C and stop bothering us.
2019-09-14T23:02:23Z asdf_asdf_asdf: You tell everyone, that to learn CFFI, but not everyone like it.
2019-09-14T23:03:32Z no-defun-allowed: SB-ALIEN isn't portable, so it's not on topic for #lisp, and it's certainly not a good move for users of other implementations like Clozure CL.
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2019-09-14T23:05:34Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK. EOT.
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2019-09-14T23:16:54Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: #sbcl for SBCL topics
2019-09-14T23:17:40Z Bike: they tried sbcl on my suggestion already
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2019-09-15T01:08:08Z jeosol: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 10000") -- does this command start sbcl in slime with ~10G. I am running a memory intensive case and slime hangs, but with "sbcl --dynamic-space-size 10000" things work but not able to debug well
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2019-09-15T02:32:44Z mgsk: jeosol: yes, you can allocate up to 10GB on the heap. Are you saying it does or does not work?
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2019-09-15T03:00:57Z Payleeee: Hello everybody!
2019-09-15T03:01:12Z rigidus: Hi
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2019-09-15T03:02:24Z rigidus: lol _)
2019-09-15T03:03:29Z sukaeto: aeth: Sure!  I see your point.  It depends on what you're doing with said HTML.  HTML templating engines like Djula still have value, though (as evidenced by Djula's existence - someone wanted Jinja style templates in Lisp), because you can just have your design person write the templates without needing too much from you.
2019-09-15T03:04:27Z sukaeto: whereas sqlalchemy (at least from my experience with it) is just kind of very not ideal way of allowing you to write queries in Python.  There's nothing about it that sxql doesn't do better.
2019-09-15T03:06:34Z sukaeto: pjb: "Just using pointers to structures for everything", while possible in Ada, is very awkward and you have to go out of your way to do it.  For good reason, IMO.  I wouldn't call Ada a lesser language (than Lisp, presumably you meant to say).  Just . . . different.
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2019-09-15T03:09:37Z sukaeto: aeth: Ada distinguishes between "Foo", "pointer to Foo", and "Foo'Class (as well as pointer to Foo'Class)" - that last one I've never seen an analogue to in any other language.  Essentially, "We don't know the exact type of this thing until runtime, just that it's some descendent of Foo"
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2019-09-15T03:36:14Z aeth: sukaeto: On the other hand, nothing's stopping you from, rather than text-substituting, parsing that templating engine into your html->s-expression system and thus validate the HTML
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2019-09-15T03:39:27Z aeth: sukaeto: #lispcafe also came up with a clever way of substituting something into a string. Basically, build a format string that takes in a keyword argument by collecting the variables and then removing the duplicates for the keywords, i.e. (&key foo bar baz ...) would be the lambda list but they might be encountered as foo bar foo foo baz bar ... in the template language
2019-09-15T03:40:30Z aeth: And since "hello, {{person}}!" seems wrong to a Lisper, it could be represented as (that-macro "hello, " person "!") which will then generate a function with one keyword argument, person.
2019-09-15T03:40:39Z aeth: Since then you're not magicking a variable out of nowhere
2019-09-15T03:41:27Z aeth: Now, whether or not a design person would be able to tolerate (define-foo foo "<html> <body> Hello, " person "!") instead of an alternative is a different story...
2019-09-15T03:42:04Z aeth: I guess the point of this is that you get a ton of flexibility... at the expense of everyone probably preferring their own solution
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2019-09-15T03:51:55Z pjb: you should not trust what comes out of #lispcafe. It's specifically designed for that, not trusting.
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2019-09-15T03:57:46Z no-defun-allowed: Would you prefer the code written there then, pjb? http://clim.rocks/gilbert/blah2.lisp
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2019-09-15T03:59:29Z sukaeto: yeah, my experience is that design people would rather just do PHPish stuff inlined directly into the HTML.  So things like Jinja work out great for them.
2019-09-15T04:00:14Z sukaeto: granted, if you don't have a design person and you're stuck writing all your own HTML, then yeah.  Having a sexpr representation and being able to work with it in code is great.
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2019-09-15T04:20:27Z aeth: sukaeto: Technically speaking, you can do that in CL, too.
2019-09-15T04:20:36Z aeth: sukaeto: You could write a reader macro for PHP-style CL
2019-09-15T04:26:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-09-15T04:29:07Z aeth: sukaeto: In fact, at least one person almost certainly made something like that when PHP was in style (although nowadays even PHP uses web frameworks with templates like Python and Ruby offer)
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2019-09-15T05:54:57Z jeosol:  mgsk: It didn't appear to work. Now I just do C-u M-x, then  sbcl --dynamic-space-size 10000.
2019-09-15T05:56:14Z jeosol: morning beach
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2019-09-15T09:46:22Z devon: (apropos "packages")
2019-09-15T09:46:51Z devon: LOL, wrong buffer.  Can slime hack -*- Package: foo -*- lines?
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2019-09-15T09:49:20Z asdf_asdf_asdf: devon, You set variable *print-length* on t/nil.
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2019-09-15T09:49:52Z no-defun-allowed: You can't set *print-length* to T.
2019-09-15T09:50:05Z no-defun-allowed: clhs *print-length*
2019-09-15T09:50:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_lev.htm
2019-09-15T09:50:30Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Thanks @no-def
2019-09-15T09:51:00Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Thanks no-defun-allowed. Yes only to nil or negative integer.
2019-09-15T09:51:19Z no-defun-allowed: *positive integer.
2019-09-15T09:51:20Z asdf_asdf_asdf: non-negative*
2019-09-15T09:51:33Z no-defun-allowed: Good point, zero isn't positive.
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2019-09-15T19:51:53Z afidegnum: hello, using elisp, i m trying to fetch the output of my python file and display but i m having a nil output, what am i missing? https://dpaste.de/4Yi0
2019-09-15T19:52:34Z Shinmera: Try #emacs
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2019-09-15T20:06:46Z pjb: afidegnum: Type C-h f format RET and read.
2019-09-15T20:07:39Z pjb: afidegnum: Type M-x ielm RET (format "a %s" "b" "c" "d") RET
2019-09-15T20:08:35Z afidegnum: this is my new addition
2019-09-15T20:10:20Z afidegnum:  (defun from-py (&rest pyarg)
2019-09-15T20:10:20Z afidegnum:   (interactive)
2019-09-15T20:10:20Z afidegnum:   (insert (shell-command-to-string (format "python3 %s %s" buffer-file-name pyarg))))
2019-09-15T20:10:23Z afidegnum: from-py
2019-09-15T20:10:27Z afidegnum: and i have this erorr
2019-09-15T20:10:38Z afidegnum:  /bin/bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `('
2019-09-15T20:10:38Z afidegnum: /bin/bash: -c: line 0: `python3 nil (/home/isodec/PycharmProjects/pelican/envtest.py mytest)'
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2019-09-15T20:11:34Z Shinmera: This channel is not for elisp or emacs.
2019-09-15T20:11:44Z Shinmera: Please go to #emacs.
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2019-09-15T20:17:49Z pjb: or ##lisp to discuss it in general, as this is not an emacs specific problem, but a mere programming question.
2019-09-15T20:26:57Z thijso: In ECL I'm getting STACK-OVERFLOW errors. Is this something like a runaway recursive thing or something? It says "Stack can probably be resized", but I've gone from 2000 to over 40000 now, and it keeps telling me this after some rather minor changes in my code
2019-09-15T20:27:23Z Bike: thijso: runaway recursive function is a common cause of stack overflows, yes. can you get a backtrace?
2019-09-15T20:27:37Z thijso: Well... minor, but invasive maybe. I put in verbose for logging instead of my own format t stuff
2019-09-15T20:28:02Z thijso: No, backtrace is not there. It's inside a docker and non-interactive
2019-09-15T20:28:10Z thijso: But I should be able to run it manually...
2019-09-15T20:28:13Z thijso: lemme see
2019-09-15T20:29:10Z Bike: it's possible to introduce these things in pretty complicated ways. For example, you could have some kind of object, and a function on that object. With the verbose flag on, when that function is called, the object is printed in the log. But the print-object method on that object also calls that function. Voila
2019-09-15T20:29:24Z Bike: i have no idea if that's what's happening to you, but it's something i've done before
2019-09-15T20:29:45Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hi. What is (* t). I want extract void and NULL from C. Thanks.
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2019-09-15T20:30:36Z thijso: Bike: seems like something like that yeah. I see a ton of #<process "WITH-TIMEOUT thread serving: \"verbose-thread\"." 0x55da3ceb5c80>'s cycling around with no output being produced...
2019-09-15T20:30:42Z pjb: thijso: read the documentation, there may be a way to get the backtrace programmatically.  In CCL, we can use (ccl::backtrace-as-list).
2019-09-15T20:31:02Z thijso: ah, thanks, pjb
2019-09-15T20:31:06Z thijso: I'll check it out
2019-09-15T20:31:18Z pjb: So you could write (handler-bind (#+ecl (stack-overflow #'print-backtrace)) …)
2019-09-15T20:32:01Z thijso: Shinmera: just to check: there should only be one of those threads running right?
2019-09-15T20:33:09Z thijso: Oh, wait. Sorry, Shinmera, that's an internal thing from ECL thread support I think. As ECL doesn't do proper with-timeout, it fakes it with a thread. I forgot the details
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2019-09-15T20:47:12Z Shinmera: thijso: You can potentially have multiple controllers running, but I'm not sure of the utility of it and it doesn't happen normally.
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2019-09-15T21:53:01Z LdBeth: once I thought SMGL parser is a myth
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2019-09-16T02:29:11Z devon: Earlier I got non-sequitur responses to this question, so I ask again:
2019-09-16T02:29:11Z devon: Can slime hack -*- Package: foo -*- lines?
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2019-09-16T02:36:01Z pjb: devon: you would have to define "to hack".
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2019-09-16T02:42:08Z edgar-rft: Is foo an Emacs package or a Common LIsp package?
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2019-09-16T02:45:59Z pjb: edgar-rft: this concerns CL packages.
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2019-09-16T02:47:11Z pjb: emacs packages are some kind of (CL) system. There's nothing like CL packages in emacs lisp. (there are obarray which are some low-level stuff that could be used to implement CL packages in emacs lisp, if there was hooks in the reader available).
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2019-09-16T02:54:02Z edgar-rft: My problem is more that I cannot find any documentation about a -*- Package: foo -*- file vaiable. Neither in the Emacs manuals nor in the Slime manual. I just simply have no idea where this variable comes from.
2019-09-16T02:55:48Z pjb: edgar-rft: those are file local variables.  Check that in the emacs manual.
2019-09-16T02:56:56Z edgar-rft: pjb: yes, I know, but there is no Package variable mentioned anywhere.
2019-09-16T02:57:25Z pjb: it is possible the variable names are downcased first.  Read the emacs manual.
2019-09-16T02:58:32Z pjb: edgar-rft: slime checks for in-package forms to read and evaluate things in the right package. Without an in-package, I guess it will fall back to the package name bond to package.
2019-09-16T03:00:25Z edgar-rft: pjb: That's how Common Lisp handles packages, what has nothing to do at all with file local Emacs variables.
2019-09-16T03:07:45Z devon: pjb, edgar-rft: Emacs *should* downcase all file-local variables but stupidly does it only for those variables where someone complained.
2019-09-16T03:09:23Z devon: pjb, edgar-rft: Another wheel to re-invent, [rolls eyes] but it beats editing thousands of files starting with -*- base: 10; package: foo; readtable: CL -*-
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2019-09-16T03:27:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-16T03:46:48Z rigidus: Yep, good morning
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2019-09-16T04:00:46Z beach: rigidus: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2019-09-16T04:01:22Z devon: beach: g'day!
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2019-09-16T05:38:25Z count3rmeasure: morning
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2019-09-16T05:52:11Z beach: Hello count3rmeasure.
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2019-09-16T06:26:42Z rigidus: beach: yep, i am new boy in this place
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2019-09-16T06:43:40Z flip214: when using the access library, can I tell it to do NTHCAR? (access:accesses ...) gives me a list, but with 0 as additional path specifier I only get NIL.
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2019-09-16T08:02:08Z shka__: hello
2019-09-16T08:02:51Z shka__: is coercing adjustable array of characters to simple-string guaranteed to work on a standard CL implementation?
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2019-09-16T08:09:22Z saturn2: i believe so
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2019-09-16T08:48:17Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: I am reading your questions in the channel logs, and I don't quite understand why you program in Common Lisp, given that you seem to want to treat it as just another language in the C family, where you can take the address of variables, and manipulate pointers explicitly.
2019-09-16T08:48:18Z beach: I think you would be much better off using a language in that family, rather than trying to twist Common Lisp into something it really is not in the first place.
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2019-09-16T08:49:53Z beach: Perhaps you are under the impression that Common Lisp is just another language in the same family, only with a different syntax.  That is not the case.  It is fundamentally different with automatic memory management and uniform reference semantics.
2019-09-16T08:50:40Z shka__: asdf_asdf_asdf approaches CL in a weird fashion in all sorts of ways
2019-09-16T08:51:10Z shka__: including reading a "Let Over Lambda" as an introduction book
2019-09-16T08:51:30Z shka__: but so far he proved to be resistant to suggestions
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2019-09-16T08:52:11Z beach: Well, I am afraid that asdf_asdf_asdf is wasting time because of a fundamental misunderstanding about what Common Lisp is.
2019-09-16T08:52:36Z shka__: this is a distinct possiblity, yes
2019-09-16T08:52:45Z beach: And I don't understand this desire of simultaneously using Common Lisp and treating is at something it is not.
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2019-09-16T08:55:59Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Some lack me theory, so that not understand that probably reference not exists in CL.
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2019-09-16T08:56:56Z beach: In Common Lisp, the semantics are defined as if every datum is a reference.
2019-09-16T08:57:46Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: I understand you might not quite understand the semantics, but why are you using Common Lisp in the first place if you want to program as if you are using C, and, as I recall, also accessing C code from Common Lisp?
2019-09-16T08:58:40Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: If you are using Common Lisp in order to learn how to program in it, I strongly recommend you not try to interface to C in the beginning.
2019-09-16T08:58:53Z asdf_asdf_asdf: No, I rewrite code from C to Common Lisp [SBCL].
2019-09-16T08:59:31Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: Oh dear!
2019-09-16T09:00:04Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: If you use Common Lisp that way, the code you are going to end up with (if you succeed at all) is going to be very ugly.
2019-09-16T09:00:23Z beach: You should absolutely not try to program in Common Lisp the way you program in C.
2019-09-16T09:00:33Z beach: What is the purpose of this rewrite?
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2019-09-16T09:04:05Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Nothing. Later maybe conversation.
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2019-09-16T09:05:06Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: It is a *huge* mistake to think that all programming languages are fundamentally the same and that you can translate code from one to the other while preserving the overall organization of that code.
2019-09-16T09:06:18Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: To make things worse, C is often used in ways that the standard says is undefined behavior, but which is traditional behavior of C compilers.  Such code is even less possible to translate to Common Lisp directly than conforming C code.
2019-09-16T09:08:07Z saturn2: even if you succeed, you would just end up with the same program but slower and incomprehensible to anyone but you
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2019-09-16T09:10:17Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: So, it is highly likely that your questions such as "what is the equivalent in Common Lisp of the C construct <mumble>" will be answered by "there is no equivalent".  I therefore advise you to learn Common Lisp as a language in its own right.
2019-09-16T09:10:18Z Nistur: saturn2: is that not called "job security"?
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2019-09-16T09:10:55Z saturn2: ha
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2019-09-16T09:11:46Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: You will learn more about idiomatic Common Lisp, and you will annoy people here a lot less that your current questions result in.
2019-09-16T09:12:33Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @beach; I know not must be equivalent, code in different languages another is written.
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2019-09-16T09:17:08Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: Then quit trying to interface to C as part of your learning Common Lisp, and start using Common Lisp as a language in its own right, so that you can learn how it works, what the idioms are, and how you structure Common Lisp code.
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2019-09-16T09:20:16Z aeth: The main line, I'd say, is garbage collected vs. not. But of the non GCed languages, C is about as far fron CL as you get. Even C++ has a lambda now!
2019-09-16T09:20:59Z no-defun-allowed laughs in upwards funargs
2019-09-16T09:21:23Z aeth: Your code still wouldn't be idiomatic if you translated Ruby or Python or JavaScript, but at least it'd be easier to find equivalents.
2019-09-16T09:23:21Z Shinmera: You can port C code to Lisp just fine, as long as you don't try to do pointer arithmetic or other crap they like to do. In order to be able to do such a port you need a good grasp on both languages and understand how concepts translate.
2019-09-16T09:23:50Z aeth: C's all about using stuff not exposed in CL to implement stuff that practically everyone else gives you as part of the language.
2019-09-16T09:24:22Z aeth: You can translate stuff from C if it's something that can be written in any language, of course.
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2019-09-16T09:26:51Z aeth: You can also do fun hacks to e.g. fake foo(&x) in CL by e.g. using 0-dimensional arrays or other fun obscure corners of the language, but as you said, you need to know both languages well first.
2019-09-16T09:28:13Z beach: My point is that I am quite convinced that asdf_asdf_asdf does not currently have the required knowledge to port C code to Common Lisp code, not to do any sophisticated emulation of the C runtime environment in Common Lisp.
2019-09-16T09:28:49Z beach: "nor" to do
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2019-09-16T10:01:55Z beach: rigidus: OK, welcome then!  What brings you to #lisp?
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2019-09-16T10:03:37Z rigidus: beach: There are one and a half people left in my lisp-language jabber conference
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2019-09-16T10:06:52Z rigidus: beach: And I thought that the real old lispers can be found only in IRC
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2019-09-16T10:07:18Z jackdaniel: I've heard that discord is also pretty popular among real new lispers ,)
2019-09-16T10:07:51Z jackdaniel: and there are also reddit's lisp and common_lisp channels
2019-09-16T10:08:16Z rigidus: In my country most popular is telegram
2019-09-16T10:08:42Z rigidus: jackdaniel: link me pls
2019-09-16T10:08:51Z rigidus: for redddit
2019-09-16T10:08:59Z rigidus: chanels
2019-09-16T10:09:08Z jackdaniel: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/
2019-09-16T10:09:30Z jackdaniel: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/
2019-09-16T10:09:59Z rigidus: jackdaniel: thx
2019-09-16T10:12:01Z rigidus: What are you recomend me for reading after PCL and ANSI-CL?
2019-09-16T10:12:25Z jackdaniel: "On Lisp" and PAiP
2019-09-16T10:12:30Z jackdaniel: PAIP*
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2019-09-16T10:12:38Z jackdaniel: minion: tell rigidus about onlisp
2019-09-16T10:12:38Z minion: rigidus: have a look at onlisp: An advanced textbook on Common Lisp, with special focus on macros. at http://www.cliki.net/On%20Lisp
2019-09-16T10:12:46Z jackdaniel: minion: tell rigidus about paip
2019-09-16T10:12:46Z minion: rigidus: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
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2019-09-16T10:13:36Z rigidus: I already read PAIP. Great book!
2019-09-16T10:14:20Z jackdaniel: then it is time to start contributing to the ecosystem ;-)
2019-09-16T10:14:25Z jackdaniel: and read the actual code
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2019-09-16T10:16:07Z rigidus: jackdaniel: Contribute to which project for example?
2019-09-16T10:16:32Z jackdaniel: what are you most interested in?
2019-09-16T10:17:02Z jackdaniel: like: graphics, algorithms, integrated development environments, some paticular kind of applications?
2019-09-16T10:17:31Z jackdaniel: common lisp implementations themself
2019-09-16T10:17:49Z rigidus: robots, expert systems and making programming languages
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2019-09-16T10:18:34Z jackdaniel: for the last part I could recommend studying source code of cl-ppcre which implements regular expressions for Common Lisp
2019-09-16T10:19:09Z jackdaniel: regarding robots and expert systems I'm not familiar with libraries concerned with these topics
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2019-09-16T10:20:54Z rigidus: jackdaniel: I was able to write the FORT in assembler 86, but I had difficulty trying to write a lisp on this FORT
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2019-09-16T10:24:13Z rigidus: I will definitely study cl-ppcre
2019-09-16T10:26:07Z no-defun-allowed: What FORT?
2019-09-16T10:26:37Z rigidus: *forth
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2019-09-16T10:31:00Z rigidus: gravicappa: Hello, familiar nickname! What project are you working on in Ufa now?
2019-09-16T10:31:30Z _death: rigidus: check out https://wiki.ros.org/roslisp
2019-09-16T10:33:01Z rigidus: _death: very intresting!
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2019-09-16T11:02:50Z shka__: rigidus: i made basic prolog implementation in CL, I am trying to optimize list unification right now
2019-09-16T11:03:04Z shka__: if you are interested in the expert systems
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2019-09-16T11:09:09Z rigidus: shka__: where can i see it?
2019-09-16T11:10:21Z shka__: github, give me a sec
2019-09-16T11:10:36Z shka__: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/huginn
2019-09-16T11:10:51Z shka__: it is different from the PAIP prolog
2019-09-16T11:11:47Z shka__: once i figure out how can i optimize list unification it should be also pretty fast
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2019-09-16T11:12:29Z no-defun-allowed: Just saying, Hugin (with one N) is the name of an image-stitching program I've used before, but I don't think a Prolog and an image tool are easily conflatable.
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2019-09-16T11:15:22Z rigidus: shka_: It’s hard for me to understand where to start with it
2019-09-16T11:15:54Z shka__: rigidus: well, unification function is a good start
2019-09-16T11:16:46Z shka__: or perhaps even better https://github.com/sirherrbatka/huginn/blob/master/src/machine/operations/unfolding.lisp
2019-09-16T11:17:09Z shka__: this is unfolding implementation with shared representation for code and data on the heap
2019-09-16T11:19:08Z rigidus: shka__: Before I start reading this code, I have to get enough sleep)
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2019-09-16T11:24:46Z shka__: rigidus: sweet dreams!
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2019-09-16T11:52:21Z ebrasca: Hi
2019-09-16T11:54:28Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hello.
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2019-09-16T13:20:41Z fouric: is it better to use the slime version from quicklisp or (m)elpa?
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2019-09-16T13:21:27Z dlowe: I use the one from quicklisp, since it's guaranteed to be in synch with the swank version
2019-09-16T13:21:53Z fouric: that's exactly what i want
2019-09-16T13:21:57Z fouric: ty!
2019-09-16T13:22:12Z fouric was getting warnings about slime-swank version mismatches
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2019-09-16T13:24:40Z dlowe: I also don't know how up-to-date the melpa version is kept
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2019-09-16T14:25:39Z Shinmera: I've been using the melpa one for years without issue.
2019-09-16T14:25:56Z Shinmera: Dunno what you mean with out of sync either, slime from melpa bundles swank just as the one from ql does.
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2019-09-16T14:42:02Z sukaeto: I think dlowe is referring to situations where you run your own Lisp image outside of Emacs and then slime-connect to that
2019-09-16T14:42:43Z dlowe: I didn't say the melpa one would get out of sync
2019-09-16T14:42:46Z shka__: i do that quite often, usually swank and slime are at most 1 version apart and so far it worked for me without a problem
2019-09-16T14:42:53Z sukaeto: in that case, if you've got the melpa SLIME package installed, you'll get a version mismatch if you're ql:quickload'ing swank from your Lisp image
2019-09-16T14:42:57Z dlowe: and yeah, it almost always still works
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2019-09-16T14:43:09Z sukaeto: that being said, this is what I've been doing for a long time now with no issues
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2019-09-16T14:43:36Z sukaeto: you get a warning on connect that there's a version mismatch, you tell it OK, and it connects and works
2019-09-16T14:44:51Z sukaeto: fwiw, I only do it this way because when I set it up I didn't know about quicklisp-slime-helper
2019-09-16T14:45:01Z sukaeto: and I haven't bothered "fixing" working systems
2019-09-16T14:45:01Z shka__: well, i would say that this is good enough for development env
2019-09-16T14:45:46Z sukaeto: yeah, I mean, if you're using swank<->slime communications in a production system maybe you'd want to extensively test before doing this?
2019-09-16T14:46:05Z sukaeto: I'm not clever enough to imagine why you'd do that, though
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2019-09-16T14:51:06Z Shinmera: sukaeto: Even in that situation you'd have to guarantee that you're running the same QL dist version locally, too.
2019-09-16T14:55:47Z sukaeto: Shinmera: oh yes, of course.  If you're juggling multiple systems all pinned to different QL dists, I can believe you'll run into this problem all the time
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2019-09-16T15:02:22Z remexre: weird behavior: I'm trying to do :perform (test-op (o c) (symbol-call :fiveam '#:run! :foobar)) in an asd file I'm loading with ABCL, but I'm getting "There is no class named TEST-OP."
2019-09-16T15:02:57Z dlowe: try asdf:test-op
2019-09-16T15:03:25Z remexre: oh, that did it; thanks
2019-09-16T15:03:44Z remexre: should I have (use-package :asdf) at the top of my asd files then?
2019-09-16T15:03:59Z remexre: or is that horrifying
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2019-09-16T15:04:41Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Rather asdf::test-op - double-colon.
2019-09-16T15:05:10Z Shinmera: no
2019-09-16T15:05:11Z dlowe: I'd just keep the prefix
2019-09-16T15:05:21Z Shinmera: also no to what asdf_asdf_asdf is saying
2019-09-16T15:05:22Z Bike: test-op is exported
2019-09-16T15:06:06Z asdf_asdf_asdf: So, what should be use one colon, maybe double-colon?
2019-09-16T15:06:25Z Bike: one colon if the symbol is exported
2019-09-16T15:06:57Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @Bike; thanks. And double-colon if not exported?
2019-09-16T15:07:52Z Bike: yes, and in that case you're treading in dangerous territory by using things the developer doesn't expect you to use and may change without warning
2019-09-16T15:08:29Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK.
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2019-09-16T15:32:06Z Xach: I am 3000 miles from the quicklisp build server and it is not pinging :(
2019-09-16T15:32:19Z Xach: ah well, no quicklisp update this week!
2019-09-16T15:36:21Z Xach: frabjous day! it was temporary!
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2019-09-16T16:35:06Z mfiano: Xach: no idea about osicat. I only test on SBCL and CCL for the most part
2019-09-16T16:37:34Z Xach: a lot of stuff depends on pngload and i worry that making it narrowly loadable will break a lot of stuff.
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2019-09-16T16:38:41Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2019-09-16/failure-report.html really alarmed me at first
2019-09-16T16:38:55Z mfiano: Well, if you want to hold pngload back 1 release, I'm fine with that. We're actually in the middle of a major change that should be ready in a couple days. pngload will be close to the speed of libpng very soon
2019-09-16T16:39:43Z Xach: everyone has their own priorities, but i would rather have a pure CL library that was slower than have something that only builds if you have gcc
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2019-09-16T16:40:07Z Xach: that's me wearing my library user hat
2019-09-16T16:40:21Z Xach: i will of course add anything when wearing my quicklisp hat
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2019-09-16T16:42:12Z mfiano: I understand. pngload's goal has always been performance, as most of its users, myself included, use it for game development -- streaming multiple 4096x4096 or 8192x8192 RGBA images. Some trade-offs had to be made in that area.
2019-09-16T16:43:11Z Xach: pngload is used by many other projects that might have different priorities
2019-09-16T16:43:29Z Xach: mcclim for example
2019-09-16T16:43:35Z mfiano: But you're not the first with such a concern, and we are already looking into it. mmap for example is a POSIX-compatible thing. Mezzano doesn't even have CFFI
2019-09-16T16:43:53Z _death: maybe try gcc and fallback to lisp if not?
2019-09-16T16:44:19Z Xach: the only thing i like less than foreign dependencies is complex build paths :)
2019-09-16T16:44:45Z LdBeth: http://www.flownet.com/ron/lisp/lexicons.pdf
2019-09-16T16:45:06Z _death: Xach: is this wearing quicklisp hat or user hat? (or both?)
2019-09-16T16:45:27Z Xach: _death: a bit of both
2019-09-16T16:45:31Z mfiano: Xach: Are you able to source from a particular SHA1?
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2019-09-16T16:46:05Z Xach: mfiano: i may have misunderstood - i interpreted your issue as "mezzano has switched to 3bz" - but i think I should have read it as "mezzano uses pngload"?
2019-09-16T16:46:18Z Xach: mfiano: if necessary
2019-09-16T16:46:22Z mfiano: I'm sorry. We actually didn't realize the issue until it was pointed out to us after being merged into master.
2019-09-16T16:46:37Z mfiano: Well kind of
2019-09-16T16:46:54Z mfiano: McCLIM on Mezzano uses pngload
2019-09-16T16:47:01Z Xach: So does mcclim everywhere else
2019-09-16T16:47:35Z mfiano: Point being though, McCLIM doesn't have any C layer at all, and so the mmap library or any CFFI won't work at all.
2019-09-16T16:47:41Z mfiano: err Mezzano
2019-09-16T16:48:40Z Xach: Ok. I'm glad that you're aware of it. In a situation like this it seems like maybe a fork with a new name for people who are happy to use ffi to get the best performance...is that feasible?
2019-09-16T16:48:53Z Xach: Or maybe not a fork, but an additional system within pngload? Or something?
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2019-09-16T16:50:17Z mfiano: Yes that is feasible. I actually wasn't aware of the issue until after it was merged. It was just pointed out to me yesterday. 3b wasn't aware either.
2019-09-16T16:50:59Z Xach: I should make a bot that posts alarming levels of new failures somewhere
2019-09-16T16:51:05Z Xach: (but where?)
2019-09-16T16:52:38Z dlowe: planet lisp?
2019-09-16T16:52:54Z dlowe: your email address?
2019-09-16T16:53:03Z dlowe: a mailing list?
2019-09-16T16:53:14Z dlowe: oh, oh, web push notifications
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2019-09-16T16:53:43Z mfiano: Xach: Would a separate branch work just as well. I sort of don't want to split the trees up into separate repositories, but I will if I must.
2019-09-16T16:53:45Z mfiano: ?
2019-09-16T16:54:18Z Oladon_work: We could build a websockets-based browser extension that receives such notifications from Xach and displays them to everyone using the extension in real time!!
2019-09-16T16:54:44Z Xach: mfiano: I can pull from a specific branch. Are you thinking of having a branch with the old pngload and add new code to master?
2019-09-16T16:54:50Z Xach: Oladon_work: YES!
2019-09-16T16:55:02Z mfiano: Xach: yes
2019-09-16T16:55:24Z Xach: mfiano: would you consider doing it the other way instead, where master has the old stuff and the new stuff is on a branch?
2019-09-16T16:55:53Z Xach: that would save me a little bit of hassle. (not a ton.)
2019-09-16T16:57:25Z mfiano: Xach: I think that would be doable. Now the age old problem of nomenclature
2019-09-16T16:58:00Z mfiano: Xach: Also you mentioned osicat. Who depends on that?
2019-09-16T16:58:01Z dlowe: just rename one to slow-pngload and the other to c-pngload
2019-09-16T16:58:15Z dlowe should be in marketing.
2019-09-16T16:58:21Z Xach: mfiano: i think it is via mmap
2019-09-16T16:58:48Z mfiano: slow-pngload, while speaks relatively, conveys that pngload itself is slow compared to say png-read :)
2019-09-16T16:58:58Z Xach: sloping load and seeping load?
2019-09-16T17:00:21Z _death: pngloading and pngloaded
2019-09-16T17:00:36Z mfiano: The alternative is to conditionalize for platforms without ffi
2019-09-16T17:01:04Z mfiano: Never thought a simple mmap would cause so much grief
2019-09-16T17:01:06Z mfiano: Oh well
2019-09-16T17:03:29Z dlowe: If it's just the mmap, someone could theoretically make a trivial-mmap that interfaced with the OS syscalls
2019-09-16T17:04:42Z Xach: does mezzano have a mmap syscall?
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2019-09-16T17:05:15Z mfiano: No
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2019-09-16T17:12:12Z mfiano: Hmm. I think it would be a burden for me to maintain two versions. It's already a burden maintaining the one. It is pretty complex code in order to be fast. I'm considering sending pngload-legacy to sharplispers or something.
2019-09-16T17:12:48Z mfiano: Most of the changes I would make would need to be done in parallel, which is why I mentioned a branch rather than a fork, but even that is still a bit of a burden
2019-09-16T17:13:44Z Xach: It would make life easier for me and anyone else who uses pngload now if pngload remainded the same and a new fast version had a new name. (Not saying this is worth changing what you want to do.)
2019-09-16T17:14:32Z mfiano: That is acceptable, assuming someone else wants to host pngload
2019-09-16T17:16:29Z mfiano: I am juggling too many projects is all, and pngload takes a lot of brain cells when something needs to change. Sadly, I am no Shinmera
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2019-09-16T17:18:25Z mfiano: Xach: For now, how about we just hold back pngload this month as to not break anything while I talk to 3b about perhaps conditionalizing 3bz and pngload to be compatible everywhere.
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2019-09-16T17:18:33Z Xach: Shinmera is actually a loose collective of dozens of lisp hackers, do not compare yourself to that! It's no-win!
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2019-09-16T17:25:47Z dlowe: Shinmera also finds the time to draw cute pictures.
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2019-09-16T17:33:00Z |3b| plans to split cffi/mmap dependency of 3bz into a separate system by next month, any idea if nibbles is a problem too?
2019-09-16T17:33:24Z Xach: I don't know about nibbles, sorry
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2019-09-16T17:40:48Z |3b|: looks like nibbles has portable implementations of integer functions, so might work on mezzano... don't think i would have used the float functions in 3bz
2019-09-16T17:47:28Z verisimilitude: Am I to understand there's a library for manipulating PNGs written entirely in Common Lisp, already existing?
2019-09-16T17:47:46Z |3b|: a few of them (though read and write are separate libs)
2019-09-16T17:48:24Z |3b|: pngload and png-read for reading, zpng for writing
2019-09-16T17:48:28Z verisimilitude: That's interesting; I never looked much, but only saw C bindings.  I'll probably focus on some format without a pure Common Lisp solution whenever I get around to manipulating images, then.
2019-09-16T17:49:14Z Fade: why without a common lisp implementation?
2019-09-16T17:50:22Z Xach: vecto has a higher-level PDF-like API for drawing and saving as PNG
2019-09-16T17:50:24Z verisimilitude: What I meant is, whenever I do finally get around to working with some image file format, I'd prefer to write a Common Lisp library that serves a format where that currently isn't done.
2019-09-16T17:50:28Z Shinmera: Xach: I didn't know I had schizophrenia
2019-09-16T17:50:47Z Shinmera: mfiano: |3b|: Xach: I would be more than fine with removing the Osicat dependency in mmap.
2019-09-16T17:50:48Z Fade: ah. cool. I didn't track what you were saying.
2019-09-16T17:51:24Z Shinmera: I loathe libraries that invoke foreign compilers
2019-09-16T17:51:29Z Xach: "m'fiano" is italian for "more than fine"
2019-09-16T17:51:43Z verisimilitude: As do I, Shinmera.
2019-09-16T17:51:49Z Shinmera: Xach: hah
2019-09-16T17:52:28Z Shinmera: The only reason I used osicat was because I was too lazy to do a survey of the necessary constants and types myself.
2019-09-16T17:53:27Z verisimilitude: I see there's already an implementation of a tar format handler in Common Lisp, although that won't stop me from writing my own at some point; the name I thought of is too good to glance over.
2019-09-16T17:55:06Z Shinmera: dlowe: I don't seem to find much time anymore recently :(
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2019-09-16T18:02:09Z mfiano: Xach: Okay, master now reflects the state before 3bz, and the fast branch is the new one.
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2019-09-16T18:03:57Z mfiano: Hope that works now. Sorry for the trouble.
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2019-09-16T18:11:48Z Xach: mfiano: thanks
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2019-09-16T18:25:23Z mfiano: Xach: I screwed up that commit. Please don't pull yet
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2019-09-16T18:27:42Z Xach: No rush!
2019-09-16T18:27:58Z Xach: i probably won't check for another 16 hours or so, automatically
2019-09-16T18:28:04Z Xach: and every 24 hours after that
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2019-09-16T18:29:44Z mfiano: Xach: Ok fixed. I had to do a sin and revite the last commit from the git history.
2019-09-16T18:29:49Z mfiano: rewrite*
2019-09-16T18:30:33Z Fade: github needs a 'repo locked for historioectomy' toggle.
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2019-09-16T21:31:28Z ralt: is there an easy way to access an element by name, e.g.: `((:server . "nginx") (:etag . "foo"))` looping through every element looks ugly. Want to get a drakma response header.
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2019-09-16T21:33:16Z pjb: ralt: assoc
2019-09-16T21:33:22Z Xach: ralt: assoc gets the entry
2019-09-16T21:33:27Z ralt: thanks
2019-09-16T21:33:29Z Xach: ralt: car gets the key, cdr gets the value
2019-09-16T21:33:31Z pjb: ralt: (defun aget (a-list key) (cdr (assoc key alist)))
2019-09-16T21:33:43Z ralt: awesome
2019-09-16T21:33:51Z ralt: works like a charm
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2019-09-16T21:35:07Z pjb: when you correct the typo s/a-list/alist/ or s/alist/a-list/ sorry.
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2019-09-16T22:05:55Z ralt: lol, yeah, I can play with that, just needed the magic assoc keyword :)
2019-09-16T22:06:07Z ralt: never needed it until now, and now I realize there's a lot of things I could've done better
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2019-09-17T03:08:07Z tourjin: I just installed cygwin x  and emacs . where can I download slime?
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2019-09-17T03:32:28Z tourjin: what does mode +z or +i means?
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2019-09-17T03:59:16Z ck_: tourjin: you can get slime through the emacs package system, for example. Search for "Melpa packages" to set that up
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2019-09-17T04:00:39Z jeosol: Is there a work around to save SBCL from slime (normally do that from the shell). Keep getting this message: "Cannot save core with multiple threads running."
2019-09-17T04:00:59Z jeosol: I meant save the image
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2019-09-17T04:07:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-09-17T04:08:15Z |3b|: you could try killing all worker threads, exiting repl, and saving from *inferior-lisp*
2019-09-17T04:08:42Z |3b|: (or configure it to not start threads)
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2019-09-17T04:48:46Z fragamus: hello
2019-09-17T04:48:59Z fragamus: connect
2019-09-17T04:49:04Z beach: Hello fragamus.
2019-09-17T04:49:10Z beach: You are already connected.
2019-09-17T04:49:13Z fragamus: hello beach
2019-09-17T04:49:57Z fragamus: what time is it where you are
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2019-09-17T04:50:35Z beach: Colleen: time in Bordeaux
2019-09-17T04:50:36Z Colleen: Google Maps failed to perform your request for an unknown reason.
2019-09-17T04:50:41Z beach: Aww
2019-09-17T04:50:43Z beach: 06:50
2019-09-17T04:51:03Z fragamus: good morning!
2019-09-17T04:51:28Z fragamus: its night time in California
2019-09-17T04:52:21Z fragamus: Colleen: distance from hamburg to frankfurt
2019-09-17T04:52:21Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, time, deny, set, say, mop, get, tell, roll, help,
2019-09-17T04:52:58Z fragamus: I didn't know about Colleen
2019-09-17T04:53:09Z fragamus: I still don't know about Colleen
2019-09-17T04:53:35Z no-defun-allowed: fragamus: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
2019-09-17T04:54:44Z fragamus: I am trying to dissect clisp and I need to look at the main for lisp.run
2019-09-17T04:54:50Z fragamus: I can't find it
2019-09-17T04:55:08Z fragamus: It is C language I think
2019-09-17T04:55:37Z beach: fragamus: What are you planning to do with CLISP?
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2019-09-17T04:56:24Z beach: And, yes, CLISP is written in C.  I think that's where they derived the name from.
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2019-09-17T04:59:27Z fragamus: I am trying to write a toy interpreter
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2019-09-17T04:59:59Z fragamus: that sucks up byte codes and does cool stuff
2019-09-17T05:00:19Z beach: And what does your interpreter have to do with CLISP?  Are you trying to copy what they did?
2019-09-17T05:00:29Z fragamus: yeah
2019-09-17T05:01:02Z beach: And what is your reason for wanting to write a toy interpreter?
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2019-09-17T05:01:08Z fragamus: I don't need all the speed
2019-09-17T05:01:36Z fragamus: I want to embed it as part of the boot sequence for a piece of hardware
2019-09-17T05:02:05Z fragamus: I want the tiniest piece of code that will interpret lisp
2019-09-17T05:02:13Z fragamus: clisp
2019-09-17T05:02:27Z fragamus: I want it to be tiny as possible
2019-09-17T05:02:31Z LdBeth: RMS resigns
2019-09-17T05:02:33Z fragamus: and slow as possible
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2019-09-17T05:03:51Z LdBeth: I’m afraid not
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2019-09-17T05:04:10Z fragamus: so I need to study lisp.run starting with the main
2019-09-17T05:04:17Z beach: fragamus: Are you confusing CLISP and Common Lisp?
2019-09-17T05:04:25Z fragamus: no
2019-09-17T05:04:37Z fragamus: I want to use clisp bytecodes
2019-09-17T05:04:44Z beach: I see.
2019-09-17T05:04:47Z fragamus: I want to interpret that
2019-09-17T05:04:57Z beach: OK.
2019-09-17T05:05:00Z fragamus: I want tiny tiny and slooooow
2019-09-17T05:05:21Z LdBeth: Since a very bare bone lisp interpreter such as ulisp can barely fit into Ardurino chip
2019-09-17T05:07:12Z fragamus: the interpreter needs to be tiny but the code for common lisp can be on a regular storage device
2019-09-17T05:07:22Z fragamus: as big as you please
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2019-09-17T05:13:09Z no-defun-allowed: Wouldn't you also need memory for the Lisp heap too?
2019-09-17T05:13:42Z LdBeth: I don’t get the point, since if a large storage is available there’s no need for a lisp interpreter to load a Common Lisp
2019-09-17T05:14:14Z fragamus: well the lisp program will be small and won't link to much and won't do a lot of alloc
2019-09-17T05:14:42Z LdBeth: Well, you might swap on disk
2019-09-17T05:14:53Z fragamus: yep
2019-09-17T05:15:15Z fragamus: anyhow anyone point me to the main()
2019-09-17T05:16:19Z LdBeth: But seem you have not idea that you need also standard C lib to run CLISP
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2019-09-17T05:17:31Z fragamus: that is already part of the system into which i am embedding
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2019-09-17T05:22:22Z pjb: fragamus: lisp.run is in a place that depends on the installation of clisp. For example, it can be something like: /usr/local/lib/clisp-2.49.93+/base/lisp.run
2019-09-17T05:22:46Z pjb: fragamus: The best is to get the sources of clisp and to configure and compile them yourself.
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2019-09-17T05:23:38Z fragamus: what source file contains the main()
2019-09-17T05:23:48Z pjb: fragamus: clisp implementation is made much more complex than what you want, because it has to deal with two stacks: a normal C stack, and a lisp VM stack.
2019-09-17T05:23:54Z pjb: fragamus: type: man grep
2019-09-17T05:24:31Z pjb: fragamus: see https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/ and https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/internals.html
2019-09-17T05:24:36Z fragamus: i use rg and it was not evident from that but i'll keep looking
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2019-09-17T05:28:02Z tourjn: alt-x package-list-packages show me several slimes which is most popular one? I have two slim-mode two slime and a lot of slime-*.
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2019-09-17T05:37:00Z fragamus: thanks LdBeth, pjb for that info
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2019-09-17T05:44:14Z beach: I wonder how many toy interpreters for toy versions of Lisp there are out there.  And I wonder how many of them are actually used.
2019-09-17T05:44:35Z pjb: tourjn: My personnal preference is to use the slime provided by quicklisp, since slime needs a swank, and it's better if it comes from the same version.
2019-09-17T05:44:45Z beach: My impression is that there is at least one such project per year announced here.
2019-09-17T05:44:57Z pjb: beach: approximatively as many as lisp students + compiler student.
2019-09-17T05:45:00Z pjb: +s
2019-09-17T05:45:14Z beach: Entirely possible.
2019-09-17T05:45:31Z no-defun-allowed: beach: On r/lisp, about once every two months.
2019-09-17T05:45:33Z pjb: fragamus: + have a look at https://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Compilation
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2019-09-17T05:48:14Z mfiano: Toy Lisp interpreters comes up more often on the Lisp Discord server. Though it is quite a bit more active of a forum than here
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2019-09-17T05:48:48Z no-defun-allowed: But then, I'd say only 40% actually implement list processing.
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2019-09-17T05:49:35Z no-defun-allowed: (My theory is they can't be bugged to write a parser for their favourite language, since that 60% rarely follows any Lisp semantics.)
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2019-09-17T06:10:49Z verisimilitude: Paul Graham's toy Lisp still gets some attention.
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2019-09-17T06:13:08Z jeosol: |3b|: didnt get it to work. Just reran the procedure on terminal and saved the image that way
2019-09-17T06:15:08Z jackdaniel: how would you define a type denoting a homogenous sequence? something like '(sequence* integer)
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2019-09-17T06:18:16Z jackdaniel: using satisfies with lambda won't work, because satisfies expects a symbol
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2019-09-17T06:30:06Z Shinmera: There's two answers, either you can't, or you write a type expander that generates a global function to use in satisfies for that particular element type.
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2019-09-17T06:30:38Z jackdaniel: wouldn't writing the expander settle that to only one particular element-type?
2019-09-17T06:30:50Z Shinmera: Hm?
2019-09-17T06:31:43Z jackdaniel: (deftype sequence* (elt) `(and sequence (satisfies ,(do-global-expansion))))
2019-09-17T06:32:02Z Shinmera: obviously you have to pass elt to do-global-expansion.
2019-09-17T06:32:25Z jackdaniel: but elt is a parameter of the type, not something known at the type definition time
2019-09-17T06:32:40Z jackdaniel: I want to say (sequence* integer) and later (sequence* froob)
2019-09-17T06:32:41Z Shinmera: yes, and do-global-expansion is run when the type is expanded
2019-09-17T06:33:37Z jackdaniel: I don't follow, symbol given to "satisfies" denotes only a function accepting one argument - the object
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2019-09-17T06:33:54Z jackdaniel: s/only a function/a function only/
2019-09-17T06:34:51Z jackdaniel: so if we compile it to a predicate checking for integer sequence, then this function will check for `every integerp` and that's it
2019-09-17T06:35:01Z jackdaniel: if you recompile it to check for froobs, then it won't check for itnegers
2019-09-17T06:35:06Z jackdaniel: s/itnegers/integers/
2019-09-17T06:36:22Z Shinmera: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1500#1500
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2019-09-17T06:38:48Z jackdaniel: that works, thank you for the explanation
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2019-09-17T07:47:26Z no-defun-allowed: hi, 101011110100101 to you too
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2019-09-17T07:48:13Z ck_: Is that essay already? Or are we supposed to continue from your introduction?
2019-09-17T07:49:26Z no-defun-allowed: must have been their very short story, though I think using a hash is cheating the word count metric
2019-09-17T07:49:44Z jiny: clisp -c quicklisp.lisp left me a output file named quicklisp.fas . what does this mean?
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2019-09-17T07:50:33Z ck_: FASL could mean Formal Approach to Slavic Linguistics
2019-09-17T07:50:42Z jiny: clisp -c quicklisp.lisp left me a output file named quicklisp.fas . what does this mean?
2019-09-17T07:51:19Z ck_: jiny: look up 'fasl file', it stands for fast load and contains -- who'd have guessed -- compilation output.
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2019-09-17T07:51:53Z ck_: .. "I tried".
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2019-09-17T08:24:57Z tourjin: clisp -c myfile.lisp  print out   Wrote file /cygdrive/c/work/myfile.fas message. what does this mean? how can I run myfile.fas?
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2019-09-17T08:27:12Z pjb: tourjin: what does the -c option of clisp mean?
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2019-09-17T08:28:15Z saturn2: compile
2019-09-17T08:28:34Z saturn2: you probably want to remove that
2019-09-17T08:29:07Z pjb: tourjin: what about reading some documentation? https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/   https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/clisp.html
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2019-09-17T08:31:00Z saturn2: if you're just getting started you might find this easier https://portacle.github.io/
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2019-09-17T08:32:01Z pjb: jackdaniel: that doesn't really work.  That seem to work.  But conformingly, it's quite difficult to make it work.  Because you need to ensure that the function is available both in the compilation environment, and in the execution environment.   It's rather delicated to do it correctly and conformingly. Also, notice that you want to generate function names, for your randome type specifiers, and you need to keep some consistency b
2019-09-17T08:32:01Z pjb: the two environents…
2019-09-17T08:32:32Z pjb: tourjin: or http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
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2019-09-17T08:33:26Z tourjin: thanks i'm reading all day.
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2019-09-17T08:40:25Z beach: jackdaniel: Jim Newton's PhD dissertation was largely about type descriptors for sequences.  It is a great document.
2019-09-17T08:40:52Z beach: They can do arbitrary regular expressions with types.
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2019-09-17T08:48:30Z shka__: this sounds interesting
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2019-09-17T08:48:57Z jackdaniel: pjb: beach: thanks.
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2019-09-17T08:49:21Z jackdaniel: afair he has presented his ideas during ELS
2019-09-17T08:49:33Z shka__: https://www.lrde.epita.fr/wiki/Publications/newton.18.phd
2019-09-17T08:50:25Z jackdaniel: For now I'll define it to check for a sequence, this type annotation is primarily meant for a programmer reading the code, not for the compiler
2019-09-17T08:50:50Z jackdaniel: (deftype sequence* (element-type) `sequence) ;with ignore declaration
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2019-09-17T09:12:56Z pjb: jackdaniel: Here is what I had: https://pastebin.com/mbADPjQ8
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2019-09-17T09:45:04Z jiny: thanks pjb I learned I can load compiled codes in .fas extentions inside clisp.
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2019-09-17T10:36:40Z tourjin: gpg: Can't check signature: public key not found what does this mean?
2019-09-17T10:37:44Z tourjin: should I create my own public key on my system?
2019-09-17T10:38:12Z tourjin:  gpg --verify quicklisp.lisp.asc quicklisp.lisp this was original command.
2019-09-17T10:39:07Z ck_: you should probably obtain the key you want to verify with first. gpg --receive-keys <id>, or something.
2019-09-17T10:39:35Z tourjin: on my own system?
2019-09-17T10:40:00Z ck_: do you have a different option? I don't understand what you mean.
2019-09-17T10:40:52Z tourjin: i don't know about gpg. I just followed install instructions. but it fails.
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2019-09-17T10:41:58Z tourjin: doc says download two files then gpg two files.
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2019-09-17T10:43:55Z ck_: I tried to tell you that you need to obtain the public key you want to verify with, first.
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2019-09-17T10:44:28Z ck_: To do this, locate the human interface device typically located between you and the monitor, open a terminal, and enter into this terminal:
2019-09-17T10:44:45Z ck_: gpg --receive-keys D7A3489DDEFE32B7D0E7CC61307965AB028B5FF7
2019-09-17T10:45:55Z tourjin: --receive-keys is invalid option in my gpg command
2019-09-17T10:46:14Z antoszka: --recv-keys
2019-09-17T10:46:16Z antoszka: afair
2019-09-17T10:46:53Z antoszka: ck_, tourjin ^
2019-09-17T10:47:08Z ck_: mine accepts both. but thanks for the information.
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2019-09-17T10:47:43Z tourjin: thanks I think it works somehow.
2019-09-17T10:49:00Z tourjin: gpg: WARNING: This key is not certified with a trusted signature! but but it succeded. thank you.
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2019-09-17T10:52:43Z tourjin:  D7A3489DDEFE32B7D0E7CC61307965AB028B5FF7 where did this come from? can I make my own key ID?
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2019-09-17T10:54:02Z pjb: tourjin: always the same: read the doc!  man gpg
2019-09-17T10:54:09Z ck_: maybe this would be an excellent time to read the documentation
2019-09-17T10:54:33Z tourjin: always thank you
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2019-09-17T10:59:44Z scymtym: tourjin: in a nutshell, Xach signs Quicklisp with his signature. your computer doesn't know what Xach's signature is like, so you have to download it (receive-key). then you get a warning that the key is not trusted because anybody could upload a key and claim that it is Xach's key. that trust can only be established by meeting someone in person and have them attest that the key is really Xach's (potentially indirectly through a "web of
2019-09-17T10:59:44Z scymtym: trust" instead of directly)
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2019-09-17T11:15:44Z flip214: that could be done at sbcl20, btw
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2019-09-17T12:31:23Z eigenhombre: Complete newbie question here, still trying to get my head around how packages/systems/ASDF/Quicklisp works. I'm using SBCL + Emacs for my environment. When I use a library from Quicklisp, say `cl-ppcre`, is it expected that I would have to add, say, `(ql:quickload :cl-ppcre)` in my `.sbclrc`? I'm finding that otherwise, when I start my SLIME REPL in Emacs, my code doesn't know where `cl-ppcre` is even if it's in my
2019-09-17T12:31:23Z eigenhombre: `:depends-on` in the projects's `.asd` file.
2019-09-17T12:33:26Z beach: eigenhombre: That is not typically how it is done.
2019-09-17T12:33:49Z beach: eigenhombre: The typical way is to write your application code using an ASDF system definition.
2019-09-17T12:34:27Z beach: Oh, that's what you are doing. Sorry.
2019-09-17T12:34:46Z beach: For that, you need to add a link to ~/quiclisp/local_projects.
2019-09-17T12:34:57Z beach: I may have the name wrong.
2019-09-17T12:35:03Z beach: Hold on...
2019-09-17T12:35:08Z Bike: you said "the project's" asd file. do you load the project after starting slime?
2019-09-17T12:35:32Z eigenhombre googles...
2019-09-17T12:35:34Z beach: ~/quicklisp/local-projects.
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2019-09-17T12:36:44Z jmercouris: just a point of clarification: You don't have to quickload cl-ppcre in your sbclrc, you can just quickload your project
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2019-09-17T12:37:42Z thijso: So, put a symlink to your own project's asd file in ~/quicklisp/local-projects, the in slime do (ql:quickload :your-project) and it should pick up the libraries from quicklisp like cl-ppcre and others.
2019-09-17T12:37:50Z beach: eigenhombre: It looks like you are getting plenty of help, so I'll be quiet.  Others know better than I do.
2019-09-17T12:37:56Z thijso: s/the in slime/then in slime/
2019-09-17T12:38:10Z eigenhombre: I do have the symlink, but that's for libraries I make, right, not Quicklisp dependencies? Ah, I'll try `quickload`ing my project...
2019-09-17T12:38:37Z Bike: i mean if you don't actually load your project the asd has nothing to do with your system.
2019-09-17T12:40:10Z eigenhombre: Got it. Do Emacs people do a separate `ql:quickload` of the current system (that they're developing on) at the REPL then, whenever they make changes to e.g. dependencies?
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2019-09-17T12:40:36Z Bike: this doesn't really have much to do with emacs. but yeah something like that.
2019-09-17T12:41:20Z thijso: I always do (ql:quickload :my-proj)(in-package :my-proj) in slime
2019-09-17T12:42:38Z ck_: C-c M-p is a shorter command for the latter
2019-09-17T12:42:43Z eigenhombre: Ah!
2019-09-17T12:44:20Z eigenhombre: What does C-c M-p expand into? (So I can google)
2019-09-17T12:45:47Z ralt: `C-h k C-c M-p` will tell you :)
2019-09-17T12:45:59Z Bike: slime-repl-set-package, i guess
2019-09-17T12:46:01Z thijso: C-h ... ah, too late. What ralt said
2019-09-17T12:46:25Z Bike: you might have more luck with using slime's documentation than the internet's, anyway
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2019-09-17T12:48:58Z eigenhombre: yes, it's `slime-repl-set-package` - I have that working now for a minimal project w/ no deps. lemme try adding a dependency...
2019-09-17T12:49:17Z ralt: I'm surprised dim hasn't written pllisp, similar to https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.5/plpython.html
2019-09-17T12:50:06Z Bike: just to make sure you're clear on this... adding something to the file will not itself change anything in lisp. lisp doesn't continually poll your files or anything. you have to go through and tell lisp to load something
2019-09-17T12:51:13Z ralt: dim: did you consider it?
2019-09-17T12:51:23Z thijso thinks maybe he shoud figure out how to get swank running in his app on the phone, so he doesn't have a >1.5 minute roundtrip to debug it
2019-09-17T12:51:34Z ralt: thijso: that's super easy
2019-09-17T12:52:17Z ralt: I have that function in most of my apps: https://pastebin.com/4je6aUHr
2019-09-17T12:52:26Z eigenhombre: Bike: I get that -- thank you. I'm trying to figure out the best workflow. I got `slime-repl-set-package` to work on a brand new ASDF project (created with `cl-project:makeproject`). However, when I add e.g. `"arrow-macros"` to `depends-on` in the ASD file, it does not find the dependency yet (e.g. when I `slime-set-package` again). Still trying to figure that out.
2019-09-17T12:52:32Z thijso: Yeah, I actually stripped it out. So I should just put it back.
2019-09-17T12:52:59Z Bike: eigenhombre: slime-set-package doesn't load anything.
2019-09-17T12:53:06Z eigenhombre: Ah, fixed it - I had to re-Quickload my project.
2019-09-17T12:53:09Z eigenhombre: Got it working.
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2019-09-17T12:53:17Z Bike: there's a distinction between packages and systems. systems are collections of code in file and etc. packages are just namespaces for symbols.
2019-09-17T12:53:34Z eigenhombre: OK, lemme digest all that. Progress... thanks everyone!
2019-09-17T12:54:22Z Bike: setting the package just means telling lisp that it should understand unqualified symbol names to be in such and such package/namespace.
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2019-09-17T13:05:06Z eigenhombre: Everyone, I was just able to clean up my dependencies on a multi-file project and get that all working smoothly, thanks to your suggestions ... thanks again.
2019-09-17T13:06:22Z Bike: great
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2019-09-17T13:13:55Z beach: eigenhombre: Good luck!
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2019-09-17T15:39:21Z drmeister: What do folks usually do when they want to write a function that returns a shallow copy of instances of a class?
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2019-09-17T15:40:07Z drmeister: I'm implementing a genetic algorithm to mutate a complex object and it's going to be useful to make shallow copies of instances of a class.    If I change the class I want the shallow copier to keep up to date.
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2019-09-17T15:40:14Z dlowe: I've made a MOP shallow copy before
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2019-09-17T15:40:42Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/O2DY5Lap/image.png
2019-09-17T15:41:11Z drmeister: Every one of those lipid molecules is represented by an instance of a class called ga-lipid.   I want to shallow copy the slots of ga-lipid.
2019-09-17T15:41:36Z drmeister: dlowe: A MOP shallow copy... please go on.
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2019-09-17T15:42:04Z synchromesh: minion: registration, please?
2019-09-17T15:42:05Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=d703f907 will be valid until 15:45 UTC.
2019-09-17T15:42:10Z drmeister: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11067899/is-there-a-generic-method-for-cloning-clos-objects
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2019-09-17T15:45:25Z dlowe: yeah, that looks like a good implementation
2019-09-17T15:53:04Z synchromesh: minion: registration, please?
2019-09-17T15:53:05Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=9eebcba6 will be valid until 16:00 UTC.
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2019-09-17T16:26:58Z ralt: drmeister: I'm not sure it's relevant, but IME it's easier to have immutable-ish objects and do CoW
2019-09-17T16:27:40Z dlowe: ralt: that's what he wants.
2019-09-17T16:27:57Z dlowe: he's asking how to easily do the CoW part
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2019-09-17T16:28:18Z ralt: ah, shallow copy doesn't imply that for me, but ok :)
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2019-09-17T16:30:13Z dlowe: in context
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2019-09-17T16:33:07Z jmercouris: I believe that *may* be referred to as a shallow copy, it definitely is in the java world
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2019-09-17T16:40:14Z drmeister: ralt: How do you do copy on write?
2019-09-17T16:40:36Z ralt: that's a very good question :D
2019-09-17T16:41:16Z ralt: some sort of setf that returns a new instance with only the new slot being reinstantiated while all the other slots are references to the older instance's slots?
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2019-09-17T16:43:10Z drmeister: Ok, I'll think on that.   It's a good idea.
2019-09-17T16:43:33Z aeth: structs have a copy-foo function automatically generated, but there is no copy method in widespread usage for standard-objects afaik
2019-09-17T16:43:42Z drmeister: I profiled the copying function I did write and it allowed me to copy 4444 membranes/second.
2019-09-17T16:44:01Z drmeister: Then I profiled it with our tools and made a few changes and got it up to more than 16,000/second.
2019-09-17T16:44:40Z drmeister: aeth: Yeah - copying an instance is very dependent on the data structure.
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2019-09-17T16:47:13Z aeth: drmeister: Well, yes, but a default shallow copy is the topic, right? Obviously not an ideal copy...
2019-09-17T16:48:21Z drmeister: Right - but more happened between me asking and now - I accidentally switched to a different IRC window and started describing my progress in finding code to do this there - thinking I was here.
2019-09-17T16:48:47Z aeth: ah
2019-09-17T16:48:47Z drmeister: I found a generic MOP based shallow instance copier.   It was a bit slow - so I wrote some specific code.
2019-09-17T16:49:02Z drmeister: Yeah - it's all in #clasp
2019-09-17T16:52:50Z Xach: heh
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2019-09-17T17:21:43Z sjl_: is clhs.lisp.se returning Content-Type: application/octet-stream for anyone else?  Which makes firefox try to download the hyperspec pages instead of displaying them as HTML
2019-09-17T17:21:54Z Xach: sjl_: someone mentioned that a few days ago
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2019-09-17T17:22:09Z Xach: I didn't know anyone used clhs.lisp.se - I have always used lispworks's version.
2019-09-17T17:22:34Z Bike: lisp.se comes up for me first on google, is the tragic part
2019-09-17T17:22:36Z sjl_: Sometimes I google for "clhs whatever" and clhs.lisp.se is the first result
2019-09-17T17:22:38Z sjl_: yeah
2019-09-17T17:23:13Z Xach: oh. i always use a redirector thingy.
2019-09-17T17:23:58Z Oladon_wfh: You can do !clhs on DuckDuckGo (uses the LispWorks version)
2019-09-17T17:24:03Z Xach: l1sp.org/cl/11.1.2.1.2 or xach.com/clhs
2019-09-17T17:25:08Z Xach: Shinmera: FYI http://report.quicklisp.org/2019-09-17/failure-report/uax-9.html#uax-9-test
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2019-09-17T17:26:30Z ck_: Xach: is there a mechanism or report to check the most recent time quicklisp has checked some repository for updates?
2019-09-17T17:27:32Z Xach: ck_: no. i would like to add that info, so you could find out detailed provenance for a project, including when it was retrieved. but that is not there yet.
2019-09-17T17:27:55Z Xach: ck_: projects are generally checked daily, so the date of the check is the date of the quicklisp dist update.
2019-09-17T17:29:05Z Xach: there are some exceptions, like if a project is unreachable and i have a cached copy
2019-09-17T17:31:12Z ck_: I see thank you. The specific reason I asked is that I was waiting for the newest version of float-features (also by Shinmera), and I wasn't sure whether projects on github.io used some other method
2019-09-17T17:31:17Z ck_: or maybe I am doing something wrong
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2019-09-17T17:33:05Z Xach: ck_: I hope to make a new dist update very soon
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2019-09-17T17:38:10Z ck_: Thank you very much for the clarification
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2019-09-17T18:02:57Z Shinmera: Xach: That was fixed a long time ago already :) https://github.com/Shinmera/uax-9/commit/1bd98c75b601f025c9d7fc2930f2f79db5d17831
2019-09-17T18:03:09Z Shinmera: Xach: Thanks to your RSS feeds!
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2019-09-17T18:11:31Z Xach: Shinmera: phew! so YOU'RE the rss user!
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2019-09-17T18:27:07Z dlowe: I use RSS too
2019-09-17T18:29:34Z Xach: dlowe: but your stuff is never broken
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2019-09-17T18:30:31Z dlowe: Xach: I also had to stop working on my one thing :)  Maybe someday I can get back and rough it up some
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2019-09-17T18:32:45Z Xach: ok
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2019-09-17T21:17:37Z thijso: Anybody familiar with android architecture? It's apparently a little different from normal linux (despite a lot of appearances), in that calling bt:join-thread just completely locks up your app. Nothing will ever happen after you call that, it seems. Or maybe I'm just doing something wrong.
2019-09-17T21:18:12Z thijso: But a long time debugging, and I've narrowed it down to that call. On ECL, that just does an mp:join-process under the hood. And then everything grinds to a halt...
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2019-09-17T21:21:48Z ralt: thijso: it's likely that one of your thread is not finished?
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2019-09-17T21:22:10Z ralt: thijso: did you check with `M-x slime-list-threads` or w/e that was?
2019-09-17T21:22:44Z thijso: Not really, no. It's one thread, and that finished pretty quickly. Exact same code runs without trouble on regular linux with ECL.
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2019-09-17T21:24:00Z thijso: Yeah, no, as that is very hard to do running on my current setup. I'll have to look into getting swank running again. It's not as simple, because you need a specialized form of quicklisp and swank.
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2019-09-17T21:24:18Z thijso: But EQL5-Android includes examples with it, so I'll go take a look at those.
2019-09-17T21:24:40Z thijso: (So it's not hard to do, I'm just lazy, and haven't done it yet)
2019-09-17T21:24:42Z thijso: ;)
2019-09-17T21:26:43Z Xach: thijso: i'm curious - what sort of specializations are needed for quicklisp?
2019-09-17T21:28:33Z thijso: Not exactly sure what the function does, but it includes this comment: ;; replace interpreted function with precompiled one from DEFLATE
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2019-09-17T21:29:14Z thijso: It's in EQL5-Android/examples/REPL/lisp/ini.lisp
2019-09-17T21:30:50Z Xach: ah
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2019-09-17T21:50:49Z thijso: Hhmmm... might have spoken too soon. Had a bunch of code commented out in my 'working' version. Looks like the thread is actually dying in there somewhere...
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2019-09-17T21:53:06Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hi. Why it return  note: deleting unreachable code?
2019-09-17T21:53:40Z asdf_asdf_asdf: https://cpy.pt/2Wrds2N8
2019-09-17T21:53:40Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: because it has determined that the code cannot be reached and it does not need to be included in the compiled code
2019-09-17T21:53:49Z Xach: that is not a return value but a note
2019-09-17T21:54:31Z asdf_asdf_asdf: So, how it fix?
2019-09-17T21:54:35Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: it is deleting the last form because your case always returns before the final form is reached.
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2019-09-17T21:56:00Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: your unconventional indentation makes it hard to see the control flow quickly.
2019-09-17T21:56:41Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: do you understand why nothing can be reached after the case form?
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2019-09-17T22:03:20Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @Xach; because otherwise never be executed.
2019-09-17T22:04:23Z thijso: Hmmm... does ECL do something different with vectors? Looks like (incf (size-of queue)) is dying.
2019-09-17T22:04:34Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: no.
2019-09-17T22:05:03Z Xach: thijso: which part is the vector there?
2019-09-17T22:05:06Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @thijso; sb-sys::int-vector?
2019-09-17T22:06:12Z thijso: Wait, no. That's just a slot accessor for a number. Huh?
2019-09-17T22:06:43Z thijso: It's just increasing a number from 0 to 1 and it's dying? I don't get it.
2019-09-17T22:07:19Z Xach: What is queue? What is size-of?
2019-09-17T22:08:22Z thijso: queue is a defclass with a slot size and that has accessor size-of.
2019-09-17T22:08:35Z thijso:  (size :initform 0 :accessor size-of)
2019-09-17T22:08:46Z Xach: ok. weird.
2019-09-17T22:09:59Z thijso: Although, maybe it's dying on subsequent iterations. It's very irritating, as all my debugging output gets lost when it dies. So I can only figure out stuff when it *doesn't* die. Pain in the you-know-what...
2019-09-17T22:10:09Z thijso: Maybe time to get swank running tomorrow...
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2019-09-17T22:19:41Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Sorry, I don't know why it's unreachable.
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2019-09-17T22:30:44Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: it is because you use return-from
2019-09-17T22:33:29Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Xach; sorry, because I don't know how works instruction return*.
2019-09-17T22:33:42Z asdf_asdf_asdf: In Common Lisp.
2019-09-17T22:33:53Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I must define special block using block operator?
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2019-09-17T22:37:10Z gilberth__: asdf_asdf_asdf: Perhaps you first learn some Common Lisp and stop using it like you would use C.
2019-09-17T22:37:16Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: no.
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2019-09-17T22:37:56Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: there is no way for the control of the program to proceed past your CASE form. every outcome of the form results in control returning to somewhere else. no forms after it are reachable.
2019-09-17T22:38:09Z Xach: that is why you get an unreachable error
2019-09-17T22:38:12Z Xach: sorry, note.
2019-09-17T22:38:29Z Xach: it is not an error to have unreachable code. but it is usually a sign of misunderstanding.
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2019-09-17T22:42:09Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @Xach; very thanks for help. I wrote:
2019-09-17T22:42:21Z asdf_asdf_asdf: And works valid?
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2019-09-17T22:43:01Z gilberth__: Or to put it otherwise, if you don't mind, Xach, in CL there is no need to RETURN-FROM a function make it yield a value.
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2019-09-17T22:44:04Z gilberth__ has an "to" extra.
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2019-09-17T22:47:36Z gilberth__ is hacking in Lisp for over 30 years now and almost never uses RETURN-FROM.
2019-09-17T22:47:53Z Xach: gilberth__: when you started they had not yet invented it!
2019-09-17T22:48:07Z Xach: you had to use jump-if-not-zero and such!
2019-09-17T22:48:13Z gilberth__: Xach: But CATCH/THROW was there :)
2019-09-17T22:48:50Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK, so thanks. (return-from... is bad practice?
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2019-09-17T22:50:02Z gilberth__: Xach: You mean C2 xx xx?
2019-09-17T22:50:11Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: no. but it is essential to understand how it works and how it affects control flow and why it might lead to unreachable code.
2019-09-17T22:51:19Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK.
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2019-09-17T22:54:51Z gilberth__: asdf_asdf_asdf: The one thing you really must get is, that Lisp does not distinguish between statements and expressions like most other languages do.
2019-09-17T22:55:34Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I noticed.
2019-09-17T22:56:01Z gilberth__: It's fine to say e.g. (+ (IF X 3 4) 42)
2019-09-17T22:56:13Z gilberth__: Bad example, since C has
2019-09-17T22:56:19Z gilberth__: ?: even
2019-09-17T22:56:45Z gilberth__: Another example (+ (CASE X (:FOO 3) (:BAR 4) (T 0)) 42)
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2019-09-17T23:11:52Z gilberth__: Xach: BTW I am not _that_ olde, CLtL1 was published as I was 10yo which was about the time I came into contact with Lisp.
2019-09-17T23:13:11Z Xach: gilberth__: sorry, you can't fool me. all cmucl hackers are very very old.
2019-09-17T23:13:40Z gilberth__: Well, I am not a CMUCL hacker :)
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2019-09-17T23:14:09Z Xach: oh, ok, then you may be younger than old
2019-09-17T23:14:25Z gilberth__: Or did you using CMUCL? Thes, yes.
2019-09-17T23:14:31Z gilberth__: * Then
2019-09-17T23:14:45Z gilberth__ types garbage.
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2019-09-17T23:15:59Z gilberth__: But, yes, I wonder when was BLOCK/RETURN-FROM invented? I bet Zeta Lisp has that, too.
2019-09-17T23:17:47Z Xach: perhaps by catherine zeta-lisp
2019-09-17T23:18:44Z Bike: the other day i looked at the lisp 1.5 manual, and it has return, and prog has a block. no naming or dynamic extent or anything though
2019-09-17T23:19:18Z gilberth__: Yes, I believe PROG had RETURN for ages.
2019-09-17T23:19:48Z gilberth__: As if you cannot write PORGrams without PROG. But don't tell asdf_asdf_asdf.
2019-09-17T23:21:59Z gilberth__: Standard Lisp is funny. It allows RETURN and GO in a tail position only. Calls for LABELS.
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2019-09-17T23:37:03Z ralt: always hate this gotcha. https://pastebin.com/95ryYMmT
2019-09-17T23:38:24Z Bike: if i read it correctly it was even worse, like i don't think you could GO from a nested if
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2019-09-17T23:39:58Z gilberth__: Bike: IIRC you'd need COND for that. But don't nail me on that.
2019-09-17T23:40:01Z Xach: ralt: which one?
2019-09-17T23:40:09Z Xach can't remember exactly what ppcre:scan does
2019-09-17T23:40:29Z Xach: oh, right, the range operator
2019-09-17T23:40:35Z ralt: Xach: the position of the dash
2019-09-17T23:40:42Z gilberth__: It tries to apply Perl regexps (with all their bad semantics) to a string.
2019-09-17T23:40:42Z Xach: That's why I always put dashes as the first thing in []...
2019-09-17T23:41:00Z gilberth__: Same here.
2019-09-17T23:42:13Z ralt: I learn that lesson every other year when I hit that bug...
2019-09-17T23:42:41Z gilberth__: And why don't you remember that lesson?
2019-09-17T23:42:50Z ralt: I'm a goldfish
2019-09-17T23:43:04Z Xach: nice
2019-09-17T23:43:13Z gilberth__: BTW, I often use "[x]" for quoting, since I simply cannot remember what to quote and what not.
2019-09-17T23:44:12Z gilberth__: And it's different in [POSIX] basic regular expression versus extended regular expressions.
2019-09-17T23:45:32Z gilberth__: Both of which are no regular expressions at all. Never mind.
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2019-09-18T00:06:19Z yaboi: minion: registration, please?
2019-09-18T00:06:19Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=487355e5 will be valid until 00:15 UTC.
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2019-09-18T00:20:19Z gilberth__: ralt: BTW your "\" is bogus. And a (FIND-IF (LAMBDA (C) (FIND C ".-_")) "foo-bar") is even faster.
2019-09-18T00:20:42Z gilberth__: s/FIND-IF/POSITION-IF/
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2019-09-18T03:57:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-18T05:07:28Z zigpaw: morning :)
2019-09-18T05:07:53Z beach: Hello zigpaw.
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2019-09-18T05:18:05Z thijso is an idiot
2019-09-18T05:18:41Z thijso: the issue I thought was with incf yesterday, turns out it's me using (return) instead of (return-from label)
2019-09-18T05:19:08Z thijso: well, that was a nice day spent down the rabbit hole for nothing.
2019-09-18T05:20:48Z thijso: ... and naturally I spoke too soon
2019-09-18T05:20:56Z thijso is going crazy
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2019-09-18T05:30:07Z flip214: thijso: wasn't for nothing, you might have learned something
2019-09-18T05:31:52Z thijso: flip214: maybe. Doesn't feel like it. Especially as I haven't found the real issue yet.
2019-09-18T05:33:28Z flip214: do you have a paste?
2019-09-18T05:33:29Z pjb: thijso: things like that happen.
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2019-09-18T05:48:15Z thijso: pjb: yeah, I know. Still frustrating every time it happens. Especially when you end up with something working and you don't really know why...
2019-09-18T05:48:25Z thijso: flip214: it's now really working. I think.
2019-09-18T05:49:02Z thijso: So, why would it work if I wrap the call to the main app function in a mp:process-run-function? i.e. in a separate thread.
2019-09-18T05:49:44Z pjb: Watch the cadaddr of your form.
2019-09-18T05:49:58Z thijso: Although... maybe I need to clean up all my debugging code before I start rejoycing...
2019-09-18T05:50:21Z thijso: see if it still works then
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2019-09-18T05:54:49Z thijso: hmmm... seems like it does...
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2019-09-18T06:12:09Z ralt: gilberth__: it was simplified for the sake of the example
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2019-09-18T08:30:45Z no-defun-allowed: Can I access a class's class-allocated slots without creating an instance of it?
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2019-09-18T08:31:17Z scymtym: (READER (c2mop:class-prototype (find-class CLASS)))
2019-09-18T08:32:29Z no-defun-allowed: Great, am I being too hopeful to ask for anything without MOP?
2019-09-18T08:33:03Z shka__: you kinda are
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2019-09-18T08:33:32Z LdBeth peek
2019-09-18T08:33:37Z Shinmera: Can try with allocate-instance and cache that instance.
2019-09-18T08:33:39Z scymtym: not sure. you may also have to throw C2MOP:ENSURE-FINALIZED into the mix
2019-09-18T08:33:49Z no-defun-allowed: Eh well, I'll try to think of something else then.
2019-09-18T08:35:28Z no-defun-allowed: That's probably one of the stupider ways to implement what I have in mind though, in my network thingamabob I would like to define handlers that a server that is an instance of some class can handle, like (define-handler (my-server "/foo") :reader #'read-foo)
2019-09-18T08:36:57Z Shinmera: I don't think class-allocated slots ever happened to be the right thing in all of my projects.
2019-09-18T08:37:02Z LdBeth: you cound just intern handlers' name into a package
2019-09-18T08:37:24Z Shinmera: I don't even know if they ever are at all preferable over either a special variable, a representative instance, or a metaclass.
2019-09-18T08:38:00Z no-defun-allowed: Fair enough, I couldn't get any inheritance from class-allocated slots now I think about it.
2019-09-18T08:38:11Z LdBeth: I'm kinda start to appreciate ECMAScript
2019-09-18T08:38:25Z shka__: horrific
2019-09-18T08:38:30Z no-defun-allowed: #javascript is that a way →
2019-09-18T08:38:55Z no-defun-allowed: Keying a hash table with the class should be reasonable though.
2019-09-18T08:39:26Z shka__: no-defun-allowed: this sounds like a a complex solution to a simple problem
2019-09-18T08:39:30Z LdBeth: ECMA array can be list tuple box package object ....
2019-09-18T08:39:32Z Shinmera pounds his fist on the table ME TA CLASS! ME TA CLASS!
2019-09-18T08:40:08Z shka__: no-defun-allowed: what really you want to do? Launch some logic without an instance of a class?
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2019-09-18T08:40:38Z no-defun-allowed: Shinmera: I swore to myself I'd try to do my networking with the MOP, then my objects with the MOP. But the chant sounds fun.
2019-09-18T08:40:51Z no-defun-allowed: *networking without. You got me.
2019-09-18T08:41:32Z LdBeth: without MOP is like doing web without DOM
2019-09-18T08:41:34Z Shinmera: I agree with shka__, I don't really know what your problem is to present an adequate solution.
2019-09-18T08:42:07Z no-defun-allowed: Sorry. I think I figured it out now.
2019-09-18T08:42:23Z shka__: well, ok then
2019-09-18T08:42:46Z shka__: seriously though, this sounds like it should not require metaclasses at all
2019-09-18T08:43:24Z pjb: It doesn't, as long as you have an object of that class.
2019-09-18T08:43:53Z no-defun-allowed: I do not, but you cannot hear me, so you would not know.
2019-09-18T08:44:12Z pjb: In OO languages, you need an object to send a message to. In CLOS, you need an object to dispatch a method of a generic function to.
2019-09-18T08:44:44Z pjb: There's no difference between a "class method" and an "instance method" in CLOS: all methods are methods of generic functions.
2019-09-18T08:44:58Z pjb: So you can just write a generic function, with a method dispatching on the class.
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2019-09-18T08:45:18Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe reciprocating the /ignore would make this less painful.
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2019-09-18T08:48:16Z shka__: no-defun-allowed: why exactly you don't have instance of a class though?
2019-09-18T08:48:45Z shka__: writing application logic based on the classes and not instances is really backward style of programming imho
2019-09-18T08:49:07Z no-defun-allowed: Because I want to add behaviour to the instance before I have one.
2019-09-18T08:49:13Z pjb: In both cases, you need an object: https://pastebin.com/UWdaS3sr
2019-09-18T08:49:21Z pjb: so the class or an instance…
2019-09-18T08:51:42Z shka__: no-defun-allowed: yeah, i never quite run into something exactly like that
2019-09-18T08:52:16Z shka__: i recommend to rethink your approach, it sounds a little bit weird
2019-09-18T08:52:42Z shka__: also, remember about method specialized to symbol instances…
2019-09-18T08:53:06Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, that could work actually.
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2019-09-18T10:40:33Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: When you submit code for others to read, it is polite to make sure you respect conventions such as naming (lower-case with hyphen, and not CamelCase), and indentation.
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2019-09-18T14:53:57Z tourjin: can gpg on wsl and gpg on cygwin share one private key?
2019-09-18T14:54:57Z tourjin: or should I import and export from one to another ?
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2019-09-18T14:59:54Z Xach: tourjin: that is not a good topic for #lisp
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2019-09-18T15:00:18Z tourjin: i see sorry for that.
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2019-09-18T18:40:28Z sjl_: Would it be conforming for an implementation to make (typep (with-open-file (f "~/.stumpwmrc" :element-type 'base-char) (read-line f)) 'simple-base-string) ; => T?
2019-09-18T18:40:31Z sjl_: clhs read-line
2019-09-18T18:40:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm
2019-09-18T18:40:41Z sjl_: read-line just says it returns a "string"
2019-09-18T18:40:52Z sjl_: which is > a specialized vector that is of type string, and whose elements are of type character or a subtype of type character.
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2019-09-18T18:44:46Z Bike: i don't see how that would be nonconforming
2019-09-18T18:45:22Z sjl_: Oh, huh, CCL actually does that
2019-09-18T18:45:34Z sjl_: interesting.  I had only tried it in SBCL
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2019-09-18T21:13:57Z jfe: hi all. is there a way to call linux system calls from sbcl?
2019-09-18T21:14:27Z jfe: in particular, i need to open a netlink socket to communicate with the kernel.
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2019-09-18T21:16:48Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @jfe; type (apropos "socket") and press enter.
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2019-09-18T21:17:49Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (describe 'SB-WIN32::SHUTDOWN-SOCKET)
2019-09-18T21:18:10Z Bike: does it not strike you as silly to refer to sb-win32 on a question about linux
2019-09-18T21:18:22Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (describe (function SB-WIN32::SHUTDOWN-SOCKET)) ; not works, because isn't a function
2019-09-18T21:18:41Z jfe: asdf_asdf_asdf: awesome, thank you
2019-09-18T21:18:58Z Bike: jfe: the actual interface http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#sb_002dposix
2019-09-18T21:20:18Z jfe: thanks. does sbcl provide a safe wrapper around these functions or is it possible to pass a pointer to a buffer (e.g. for a read operation)?
2019-09-18T21:20:54Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Remember about types in SBCL, because typed-lambda-list is ((a int) (b int) (c c-string))...
2019-09-18T21:21:39Z Bike: jfe: I think it's pretty thin. The manual says to use FFI which would suggest actual pointers
2019-09-18T21:21:50Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Yes. (* int) or (sap-vector::(read-operator x)).
2019-09-18T21:22:10Z Bike: jfe: https://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/ might also be helpful
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2019-09-18T21:22:59Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (sb-sys::vector-sap (read-operator x))
2019-09-18T21:23:09Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Above wrong, sorry.
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2019-09-18T21:23:16Z jfe: wow, awesome. i may not need to rewrite the prototype in C after all :)
2019-09-18T21:23:57Z Bike: this isn't something i do myself often, so i don't think i can help more specifically
2019-09-18T21:25:22Z jfe: oh, one other question re. threads. are mutexes required for all shared access between threads, or can i approximate the "volatile" keyword in C/C++/Java to implement flags that my worker threads need to check?
2019-09-18T21:26:00Z Bike: you should use atomics instead of volatile in C/C++, shouldn't you?
2019-09-18T21:26:10Z Bike: sbcl has a cas interface you can use. sb-ext:cas and such iirc
2019-09-18T21:27:01Z jfe: if there's a lighter-weight mechanism than atomics i'd prefer to use it
2019-09-18T21:27:37Z pjb: There's a #sbcl channel for people who insist on not writing conforming common lisp code !!!
2019-09-18T21:28:34Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @jfe; specify question on the example, please.
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2019-09-18T21:28:48Z Bike: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2484980/why-is-volatile-not-considered-useful-in-multithreaded-c-or-c-programming well okay
2019-09-18T21:28:58Z fe[nl]ix: pjb: stop that
2019-09-18T21:29:22Z Bike: sbcl also has atomic-update and stuff
2019-09-18T21:29:23Z jfe: Bike: yeah i started to correct myself earlier -- volatile is only relevant to threads in java
2019-09-18T21:29:28Z Bike: i dunno if there's a portable wrapper over these
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2019-09-18T21:29:39Z Bike: jfe: ah, i see. i don't know much java
2019-09-18T21:30:07Z Bike: https://github.com/Shinmera/atomics oh right, shinmera wrote one
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2019-09-18T21:31:09Z Bike: pretty much the same. cas and atomic update
2019-09-18T21:31:27Z jfe: my current design has my worker threads checking a flag that would be set by another thread. protecting that flag with a mutex could be costly.
2019-09-18T21:32:49Z asdf_asdf_asdf: https://cpy.pt/nrMPgxd6
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2019-09-18T22:15:12Z ralt: jfe: there are cheap mutexes
2019-09-18T22:15:27Z ralt: one I really like when you have many-reads-little-writes is seqlock
2019-09-18T22:15:47Z ralt: the reader lock doesn't actually take any lock
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2019-09-19T03:07:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-19T03:49:04Z drmeister: Hey - are there any folks that develop slime online?
2019-09-19T03:49:48Z drmeister: I posted an issue and I wanted to pick your brain.  https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/530
2019-09-19T03:50:49Z drmeister: When using C-c C-c to compile a form slime has the line number of the start of the code - but for some reason doesn't pass it to swank-compile-string.
2019-09-19T03:51:02Z drmeister: I wants the line number - I needs it!
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2019-09-19T05:58:34Z Shinmera: drmeister: There's #slime, too
2019-09-19T05:59:25Z drmeister: Hi - yeah - I dropped a note in there.  I haven't seen any responses yet.  But it's only been about 12 hours.  No worries.
2019-09-19T05:59:29Z drmeister: Thanks!
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2019-09-19T06:01:23Z drmeister: It's a small change that we are looking for that may be a big change if adding another keyword argument to swank-compile-string requires every implementation to handle that.
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2019-09-19T06:21:44Z pjb: drmeister: you can also use C-c C-k to compile the whole file and have the source location information kept.
2019-09-19T06:22:56Z drmeister: Yes - that's what I do - but every now and then I C-c C-c and it all gets confused.
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2019-09-19T08:40:22Z Ae_Mc: Is anybody here?
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2019-09-19T08:41:39Z beach: You bet.
2019-09-19T08:43:10Z beach: Ae_Mc: What can we do for you?
2019-09-19T08:44:35Z Ae_Mc: Nothing
2019-09-19T08:44:42Z beach: Oh, OK.
2019-09-19T08:44:47Z Ae_Mc: Thanks
2019-09-19T08:45:03Z thijso: he was just checking if anyone was here, so if not, he could steal the silverware... ;)
2019-09-19T08:45:16Z thijso: should have kept silent, beach
2019-09-19T08:45:29Z beach: Too late.
2019-09-19T08:45:32Z beach: Oh, well.
2019-09-19T08:47:50Z Ae_Mc: And you have fun here, as I see
2019-09-19T08:48:14Z beach: Of course.  Common Lisp is a fun language to program with.
2019-09-19T08:48:50Z jackdaniel: for what it's worth I'm not here nor I do have fun
2019-09-19T08:48:51Z jackdaniel: ;-)
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2019-09-19T08:50:35Z beach: Spoilsport!
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2019-09-19T09:03:33Z beach: Ae_Mc: Several of us meet once a year at the European Lisp Symposium, so many of us know each other.  There are usually nearly 100 participants at that conference.
2019-09-19T09:05:28Z Ae_Mc: Where is the Symposium held?
2019-09-19T09:05:31Z beach: Ae_Mc: ELS2020 has not been announced yet, but we happen to know that it is going to be held in Zürich, probably at the end of March.
2019-09-19T09:05:41Z beach: Different location every year.
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2019-09-19T09:07:55Z beach: https://european-lisp-symposium.org/
2019-09-19T09:07:56Z Ae_Mc: Who is the founder?
2019-09-19T09:08:19Z beach: It was created by Pascal Costanza, but it is currently run by Didier Verna.
2019-09-19T09:09:20Z beach: ... and the steering committee.  And especially by the program chair and the local chair, that are also different each year.
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2019-09-19T09:19:04Z ck_: Can anyone help me with an ABCL question? I think I'm missing something very basic on the java side.
2019-09-19T09:20:09Z no-defun-allowed: What's the problem?
2019-09-19T09:20:39Z pjb: What's your guess?
2019-09-19T09:21:02Z ck_: The problem is "Don't know how to REQUIRE ABCL-CONTRIB." -- I'm trying to run this code: https://gist.github.com/fsmunoz/5850260
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2019-09-19T09:21:45Z ck_: I think I set the classpath correctly (tried both the -cp argument and the environment variable), but the messages "Added jar:file:..." that those files comments talk about don't happen
2019-09-19T09:21:57Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, I've never used the contrib package, sorry.
2019-09-19T09:22:19Z pjb: Do you have the abcl-contrib.jar file somewhere?
2019-09-19T09:22:36Z ck_: pjb: yes, that's what I meant by classpath argument.
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2019-09-19T09:22:54Z ck_: the gist is a couple years old, maybe require isn't the way to do that anymore?
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2019-09-19T09:23:44Z ck_: no, that's not it, the manual mentions it explicitly
2019-09-19T09:25:16Z pjb: Yes, it should work like jss.
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2019-09-19T09:26:46Z jackdaniel: could you paste somewhere exact invocation (copy paste from the terminal) and contents of: a) abcl directory, b) directory with abcl-contrib (possibly the same directory)
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2019-09-19T09:26:59Z jackdaniel: I gather that the file loaded is the file in a gist
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2019-09-19T09:27:42Z ck_: okay, here goes:
2019-09-19T09:28:02Z ck_: java -cp ~/opt/abcl-bin-1.5.0/abcl.jar:~/opt/abcl-bin-1.5.0/abcl-contrib.jar:org.eclipse.paho.client.mqttv3.jar org.armedbear.lisp.Main --noinform --noinit --nosystem --load abcl-mqtt.lisp
2019-09-19T09:29:41Z ck_: the directory contents of ~/opt/abcl-bin-1.5.0 are the following 6 files: "CHANGES"  "README"  "abcl-1.5.0.pdf"  "abcl-contrib.jar"  "abcl.jar"  "asdf.pdf"
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2019-09-19T09:30:42Z jackdaniel: I'd try absolute paths, maybe that will change something
2019-09-19T09:32:27Z ck_: jackdaniel: okay I'll try (and I think I did before) -- but the "Don't know how to ... -CONTRIB" messages is produced from the abcl repl, so abcl.jar is found correctly
2019-09-19T09:33:08Z jackdaniel: I gather that when you invoke repl and type (require 'abcl-contrib) the problem is the same?
2019-09-19T09:33:35Z ck_: yes -- well, not exactly, because the quote syntax produces a different error message -- but it fails either way
2019-09-19T09:33:45Z ck_: maybe I'm using the wrong version of Java, are there restrictions?
2019-09-19T09:35:56Z jackdaniel: I think that abcl does not work *at all* on some recent Java versions because bytecode has changed and compiler has not been adapted? I'm not certain, maybe interpreter works there
2019-09-19T09:37:20Z ck_: Aha, then that's probably the reason. Can you tell me which version is safe?
2019-09-19T09:38:22Z no-defun-allowed: Works fine on Java 8, but that might be too old.
2019-09-19T09:38:44Z jackdaniel: I can't, as you've noticed I was pretty vague about versions
2019-09-19T09:40:25Z ck_: Okay, thank you.
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2019-09-19T10:20:58Z ghard: Gday! Prior to pulling the CFFI sock up libcrypto, I'd like to check if anybody's seen a working ECDSA signing library out in the wild.
2019-09-19T10:22:12Z ghard: Asking for a friend who's got to be verifying the darned Apple Sign On JWS pronto. ;)
2019-09-19T10:22:20Z no-defun-allowed: Ironclad has ECDSA.
2019-09-19T10:22:29Z ghard: Really?
2019-09-19T10:22:35Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah.
2019-09-19T10:22:41Z ghard: I didn't see that last time I looked.
2019-09-19T10:23:01Z no-defun-allowed: It's only in one fork, but that's the fork on Quicklisp.
2019-09-19T10:23:04Z ghard: Which is... like 10 hours ago.
2019-09-19T10:23:06Z ghard: Ahh
2019-09-19T10:23:20Z ghard: Must've missed it somehow.
2019-09-19T10:23:24Z ghard: Thanks!
2019-09-19T10:24:39Z no-defun-allowed: https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/netfarm/blob/master/Code/Crypto/keys.lisp might be good as an example of how to use it.
2019-09-19T10:25:23Z ghard: Cool!
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2019-09-19T10:44:49Z ghard: A really interesting project too!
2019-09-19T10:48:34Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks.
2019-09-19T10:49:28Z no-defun-allowed needs to update the README though.
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2019-09-19T11:39:18Z ym: Can't find mention of ChrysaLisp in logs. Wasn't discussed yet or I'm doing something wrong?
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2019-09-19T11:44:13Z no-defun-allowed: I wouldn't expect it to be, it isn't a Common Lisp implementation.
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2019-09-19T11:45:27Z no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/vygr/ChrysaLisp/blob/master/apps/films/app.lisp This indentation scares me.
2019-09-19T11:46:15Z ck_: loading cl-async through quicklisp fails with "#:libuv-grovel is unbound" -- is that expected?
2019-09-19T11:46:15Z no-defun-allowed: ym: Have you heard of Mezzano <https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano>?
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2019-09-19T11:55:07Z ym: no-defun-allowed, yes, but I'm more interested in bare-metal implementations. Mezzano seems cool though.
2019-09-19T11:55:25Z no-defun-allowed: Mezzano is a bare-metal implementation.
2019-09-19T11:55:40Z no-defun-allowed: Unlike ChrysaLisp to my knowledge.
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2019-09-19T11:57:13Z ym: Really? Is there overview of it's hardware architecture?
2019-09-19T11:58:33Z no-defun-allowed: It runs on an x86_64 machine, the only non Lisp part being the bootloader.
2019-09-19T11:59:56Z ym: Well, by bare-metal I mean ISA that theoretically could be synthesized on FPGA.
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2019-09-19T12:00:15Z ym: And compiler on top of it.
2019-09-19T12:00:32Z no-defun-allowed: It'd be lower than bare metal then, you have to make the metal yourself.
2019-09-19T12:00:51Z no-defun-allowed: Then maybe https://github.com/lisper/cpus-caddr is more your thing.
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2019-09-19T12:01:20Z ym: Yep, CADDR re-implementation is cool, but still it's just a CADDR.
2019-09-19T12:02:07Z no-defun-allowed: And the CADR runs Lisp Machine Lisp, which is not awfully far from Common Lisp as things go.
2019-09-19T12:04:41Z ym: CADR is for retro fanboys. Variation of RISC-V and SBCL optimized for each other - that's perfect case.
2019-09-19T12:05:10Z no-defun-allowed sighs
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2019-09-19T12:08:40Z ym shrugs off.
2019-09-19T12:10:29Z no-defun-allowed: So you want a C machine that has been adjusted slightly to run SBCL, which in turn is adjusted to run on that C machine better?
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2019-09-19T12:12:10Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe I am too pessimistic, but if I was able to fab my own processor, I would definitely have it run a more Lisp-friendly instruction set.
2019-09-19T12:12:29Z no-defun-allowed: And I am never going to be able to fab my own processor, so we have to settle on running Lisp well on C machines.
2019-09-19T12:18:36Z aap: a hardware processor that can execute CADR macrocode directly would be cool
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2019-09-19T12:19:10Z aap: or lambda macrocode. i don't even know how different these are
2019-09-19T12:19:40Z jackdaniel: praise the stock hardware: it gives you a reasonable price which individual can afford with good performance disregarding the language you chose
2019-09-19T12:19:46Z jackdaniel: choose
2019-09-19T12:20:10Z aap: wasn't genera on alpha much faster than on actual symbolics hardware?
2019-09-19T12:21:10Z ym: no-defun-allowed, buy FPGA devboard.
2019-09-19T12:21:29Z ym: And you could fab your own processor.
2019-09-19T12:21:32Z no-defun-allowed: I should some time.
2019-09-19T12:21:44Z aap is currently struggling with his fpga
2019-09-19T12:22:07Z no-defun-allowed: It wouldn't be anywhere close to a proper fab job in terms of efficiency or performance.
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2019-09-19T12:23:20Z ym: If you taking in account economic factor, yes, for now.
2019-09-19T12:24:52Z aap: there's a project to make a reincarnation of the lambda that executes macrocode directly from C instead of emulating the microcode
2019-09-19T12:25:09Z aap: once that is running lisp code, maybe the macrocode could be executed directly from an fpga perhaps
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2019-09-19T12:25:44Z ym: CADR being synthesized on FPGAs, AFAIK.
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2019-09-19T12:26:35Z aap: yes, the CADR is on an fpga (i've seen it!) but it executes microcode
2019-09-19T12:27:03Z aap: i've also seen real CADRs...hopefully running some day
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2019-09-19T12:31:17Z ym: ZPU is stack machine synthesizable on FPGAs.
2019-09-19T12:33:16Z jackdaniel: behold the prophecy: one day we'll have stock hardware with powerful fpga boards being their peripherals (similar to zynq) and we'll synthesize hardware at real time
2019-09-19T12:33:32Z aap: oh that would be lovely
2019-09-19T12:33:32Z jackdaniel: want to play a game? no problem, extra graphics card for you
2019-09-19T12:33:41Z aap: synthesis is so slow X(
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2019-09-19T14:49:38Z jmercouris: hello everyone
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2019-09-19T15:02:02Z thijso: hi
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2019-09-19T15:03:31Z beach: Hello jmercouris.
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2019-09-19T15:11:55Z jmercouris: hello beach !
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2019-09-19T15:46:18Z gendl shoutout to Roswell and SBCL. I've been developing an elaborate thing for the past 6 months or so exclusively on Allegro and CCL. Tomorrow I'm talking to a firm who is already an SBCL shop and may have a use for our stuff. So 
2019-09-19T15:47:44Z gendl: So I proceeded to do 'brew install roswell',  'ros install sbcl',  added the newly installed 1.5.6 to my slime-lisp-implementations, and 5 minutes later my thing is up and running under SBCL, no changes, no visible diffferences (knock wood).
2019-09-19T15:49:50Z Xach: nice
2019-09-19T15:50:04Z gendl: I even did (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :invert), so everything looks the same as in Allegro in modern-mode (maybe I should start doing the same thing in Allegro and ditching modern-mode, although I have to see if abandoning modern-mode support would break any of our stuff for the few people who i think are using it under modern-mode )...
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2019-09-19T17:23:27Z mfiano: If I supply the initargs argument to CHANGE-CLASS with an initarg not present in the target class, but instead defined by an initialize-instance :after method, it fails with "Invalid initialization argument" on SBCL. I could do (apply #'change-class instance class :allow-other-keys t initargs), but also, initialize-instance is never called. Do I have to explicitly call initialize-instance as well?
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2019-09-19T17:24:52Z Xach: mfiano: change-class uses shared-initialize
2019-09-19T17:25:02Z Bike: if you want the method to happen both on initialization and change-class it should be on shared-initialize.
2019-09-19T17:25:05Z Xach: mfiano: so maybe your method should be there instead.
2019-09-19T17:25:43Z mfiano: I see. What I'm doing is indeed pretty hacky already. Why not? Thanks
2019-09-19T17:26:08Z Bike: i mean it's not a hack, that's what shared-initialize is for
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2019-09-19T17:26:38Z mfiano: No I mean this code in general. I'm using the MOP to plug in topologically sorted mixin classes into a progn/most-specific-last protocol
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2019-09-19T17:28:23Z Xach: mein auges
2019-09-19T17:31:56Z ck_: if you meant 'my eyes' -- "Meine Augen"
2019-09-19T17:32:04Z mfiano: I've actually never used shared-initialize before. In this case, what should the slot-names argument be?
2019-09-19T17:32:28Z mfiano: and can I use it just like initialize-instance :after methods?
2019-09-19T17:33:36Z Bike: slot-names is either T (meaning all slots) or a list of slot names (symbols)
2019-09-19T17:33:50Z Bike: it's the slots that you're initializing
2019-09-19T17:34:13Z Bike: other than that, it's pretty much like initialize-instance
2019-09-19T17:35:18Z mfiano: In this case, I'm defining additional initargs for make-instance/change-class with the keyword arguments, and I will be setting slot values using them.
2019-09-19T17:35:21Z Bike: the thing to understand about initialization is that the primary method on make-instance is (initialize-instance (allocate-instance class ...initargs) ...initargs), and the primary method on initialize-instance is (shared-initialize instance t ...initargs), i.e. initialize-instance doesn't actually do anything by itself
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2019-09-19T17:36:31Z Bike: with change-class the slot-names argument will be a list of the slot names added by the new class. meaning that you're not supposed to touch the existing slots.
2019-09-19T17:37:06Z Bike: if that's not a problem with your initargs you can just ignore that argument
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2019-09-19T17:39:29Z mfiano: Great, it works. Thanks a lot
2019-09-19T17:40:59Z mfiano: How does reinitialize-instance come into play? I do have a reinitialize-instance method defined for 1 class that I may change an instance to, and would like this called too.
2019-09-19T17:41:27Z Bike: reinitialize-instance also calls shared-initialize
2019-09-19T17:41:59Z Bike: in that case the list of slot-names will be nil, so you're not supposed to update any slots that don't have an initarg
2019-09-19T17:42:14Z Bike: sorry, i explained that poorly before, the list of slot names is the ones you're not supposed to touch if there's no initarg.
2019-09-19T17:42:25Z Bike: if there is an initarg you do change the slot because it's been explicitly given a new value
2019-09-19T17:43:22Z Bike: so for example if you have an instance with a slot that's unbound, initialize-instance will give that slot a value from the initform, but reinitialize-instance will not
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2019-09-19T17:43:54Z mfiano: I see. That makes sense. Thanks Bike
2019-09-19T17:45:38Z Bike: if you redefine the class, shared-initialize will also be called, by update-instance-for-redefined-class. may or may not be relevant
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2019-09-19T17:48:05Z mfiano: I normally use an :after method for initialize-instance for this type of thing. With shared-initialize does that still make sense?
2019-09-19T17:49:08Z Bike: initialize-instance methods make sense when you want something to happen only during initialization (like through make-instance) but not other times (change-class, reinitialize-instance, make-instances-obsolete)
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2019-09-19T18:06:34Z Xach: ck_: tank schoen
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2019-09-19T18:27:12Z ck_: Xach: Gern geschehen.  By the way, how is your parallelization campaign going?
2019-09-19T18:28:10Z Xach: ck_: stalled, unfortunately
2019-09-19T18:28:35Z Xach: restoring daily automatic builds has reduced some of the urgency
2019-09-19T18:28:48Z Xach: before when i was interactively kicking off builds, cutting the time down made a huge difference
2019-09-19T18:28:53Z ck_: calm before the resounding success, I'd call it
2019-09-19T18:29:12Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org is updated daily and automatically
2019-09-19T18:29:57Z ck_: I see. In that case, why bother. I understand
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2019-09-19T18:31:05Z Xach: I'd still like to pursue it. It would be nice to come up with a system that I could run on e.g. 100 cloud servers and complete in 5 minutes or something.
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2019-09-19T18:32:04Z ck_: what speedup do you figure? i mean, does it take 9 hours now?
2019-09-19T18:32:31Z Xach: It takes about two hours now
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2019-09-19T18:33:53Z srji: I am trying to extract elements from a sequence and want to copy them to a new list. https://gitlab.com/snippets/1896440
2019-09-19T18:34:26Z Xach: srji: do you have some extension that makes [1 2 3] a sequence?
2019-09-19T18:34:37Z Xach: Also, what is seq-do?
2019-09-19T18:35:00Z srji: i thought a vector is a sequence?
2019-09-19T18:35:15Z Xach: srji: sure. but [...] is not standard.
2019-09-19T18:35:22Z Xach: The square brackets are what I wonder about.
2019-09-19T18:35:24Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @srji; use copy-seq.
2019-09-19T18:35:32Z srji: ah its emacs lisp, so i should ask in #emacs :)
2019-09-19T18:35:38Z ck_: Xach: well, its about to be the season for more indoor activities. maybe you will be coerced into continuing .. by snow for example
2019-09-19T18:35:41Z Xach: srji: ahhh
2019-09-19T18:35:48Z srji: sorry
2019-09-19T18:36:18Z Xach: ck_: it's possible but that is also the best time to harvest trees for firewood and lumber - less sap to dry later.
2019-09-19T18:36:23Z Xach: but maybe the cold AND dark will make it work
2019-09-19T18:36:54Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @srji; (loop for x in (list 1 2 3 4) collect x).
2019-09-19T18:37:21Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: it is not the right language
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2019-09-19T18:38:02Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (let ((a (loop for x across "abcd" collect x))) (string (nth 0 a)))
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2019-09-19T20:02:34Z thijso: I'm looking for a system/library to facilitate kind of a disk-backed memory store. Something that saves the data to disk regularly, but a little loss is acceptable. Is there something like that for Lisp already? Might cl-prevalence be a good fit? Ubiquitous looks kinda like something also, except it's documentation is about persistent _configuration_ storage. Any other suggestions?
2019-09-19T20:03:18Z thijso: I'm thinking I might just start out with plists (or maybe a hash) and just serialize that to disk with alexandria or something.
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2019-09-19T20:03:47Z thijso: Figure out heavy lifting stuff if/when I really need it.
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2019-09-19T20:16:34Z Xach: thijso: streaming plists to a file is not a half-bad initial approach.
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2019-09-19T20:40:54Z thijso: In the case that the id's are strings, is it better to use an eql hash or coerce the strings into keys (with intern)? Or is it basically the same difference? Or third option?
2019-09-19T20:41:20Z Xach: eql hash does not work with strings
2019-09-19T20:41:29Z Xach: I usually use an equal hash
2019-09-19T20:41:32Z thijso: Uh, sorry, the hash version that works
2019-09-19T20:41:36Z thijso: yeah, that one
2019-09-19T20:41:40Z Xach: But it depends on the situation a bit.
2019-09-19T20:42:02Z thijso: Yeah, I thought that would be the case... ;)
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2019-09-19T20:45:48Z saturn2: interned symbols don't get garbage collected, so don't use them unless you want them to stick around forever
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2019-09-19T20:52:29Z thijso: Yeah, saturn2, that is indeed a concern
2019-09-19T20:52:50Z thijso: so hash-table it is
2019-09-19T20:52:51Z thijso: for now
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2019-09-19T21:34:15Z White_Flame: you can manually intern your keys using a separate string->self equal hashtable first, then your main content will have eq strings
2019-09-19T21:34:33Z White_Flame: depending on where you want to spend time
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2019-09-19T21:53:59Z thijso: I don't fully understand what you mean White_Flame
2019-09-19T21:54:18Z thijso: Have a separate hashtable mapping the "string keys" to something else, is that what you mean?
2019-09-19T21:54:58Z pjb: Yes.
2019-09-19T21:55:21Z White_Flame: yes, map "foo" => "foo", in a #'EQUAL hashtable.  Then when you do (gethash "foo" *table*), it'll return the exact same "foo" string instance, which can be then eq compared in a table, without converting it to a symbol
2019-09-19T21:55:23Z Xach: thijso: you could have a table that maps strings to integer IDs or something.
2019-09-19T21:55:31Z Xach: Or that.
2019-09-19T21:55:36Z no-defun-allowed: Does anyone use tries in intern tables?
2019-09-19T21:55:49Z pjb: That said, it all depends on the speed of the hash function, which should be O(1) fast anyways.  So using an equal hash table  should not be significantly slower than using an eq hash table.
2019-09-19T21:56:34Z White_Flame: even if it's O(1), its constant time can be much slower than an eq compare
2019-09-19T21:56:53Z White_Flame: again, it all depends on where you want the cpu to spend time, if this is an optimization issue
2019-09-19T21:57:15Z White_Flame: and depending on what you're doing, it might be advantageous to keep the data as a string
2019-09-19T21:58:39Z thijso: ah
2019-09-19T21:58:53Z thijso: uhm, not an optimization issue, no
2019-09-19T21:58:57Z thijso: not yet, at least ;)
2019-09-19T22:00:01Z thijso: I'll have to look into that map "foo" => "foo" trick later, because it's late here and I'm getting a 'does-not-compute' error in my head atm... ;)
2019-09-19T22:00:22Z thijso: thanks for the suggestions, though, I'll be sure to check 'm out
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2019-09-19T22:28:12Z White_Flame: thijso: there may be many string instances of "foo".  however, the one that is the value in that hashtable is the "canonical" one.  by always looking up your string in that hashtable and only using the value from there (lazily adding to it if the key isn't found), you basically intern your strings to EQ-able instances
2019-09-19T22:28:36Z White_Flame: (just for understanding/reference)
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2019-09-20T03:57:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-09-20T03:57:12Z ahungry: mornin
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2019-09-20T08:36:33Z thijso: White_Flame: thanks for the explanation, I think I get it now
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2019-09-20T09:07:01Z thijso: If I do (ensure-directories-exist "~/.storage/3") and don't get an error, I should reasonably expect that directory to exist afterwards, right? Is there anything I'm missing? Or is ECL's implementation of that function broken? I really can't imagine that, but on the surface it does look like it...
2019-09-20T09:07:40Z thijso: The really strange thing is, that creating "~/.storage" the same way, just before, *does* work
2019-09-20T09:08:53Z jackdaniel: maybe you need to add the slash in the end?
2019-09-20T09:09:03Z thijso: Hhmmm, and if I do the full path without just .storage before, it only creates .storage, not the full one
2019-09-20T09:09:09Z thijso: jackdaniel: hmmm, let's see
2019-09-20T09:09:22Z thijso: Hah!
2019-09-20T09:09:27Z jackdaniel: because /foo/bar/qux is: directory /foo/bar/ and file qux
2019-09-20T09:09:27Z thijso: I knew I was doing something wron
2019-09-20T09:09:32Z thijso: that was it
2019-09-20T09:09:38Z thijso: jackdaniel: thanks!
2019-09-20T09:09:43Z jackdaniel: great, no problem :)
2019-09-20T09:10:13Z jackdaniel: if you have ecl-specific issues you are welcome to ask on #ecl channel
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2019-09-20T09:11:03Z thijso: Ah, yes, thanks, I'll join there too
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2019-09-20T10:50:58Z Shinmera: thijso: note that in Lisp the namestring "foo/bar" is always a file named "bar" in the directory "foo". If you expect it to be a directory, you need to add the trailing slash.
2019-09-20T10:51:29Z Shinmera: The confusion comes in because the implementation may treat the file "bar" as a directory on the filesystem too, since directories are also files.
2019-09-20T10:51:51Z Shinmera: Either way, to be portable, always include the trailing slash.
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2019-09-20T11:13:31Z thijso: Shinmera: yeah, I kinda knew this, but working often with files and directories in bash sorta trains you otherwise...
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2019-09-20T11:34:00Z jdz: I think it helps to remember that operations on pathnames don't touch the file system at all (except the functions that are specified to do just that, like PROBE-FILE and TRUENAME).
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2019-09-20T15:45:32Z jcowan: Is there a usual method of doing random access on ordinary files in CL implementations?
2019-09-20T15:46:25Z Bike: clhs file-position
2019-09-20T15:46:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_p.htm
2019-09-20T15:46:25Z Xach: jcowan: file-position is the usual method.
2019-09-20T15:46:26Z Bike: like that?
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2019-09-20T15:47:52Z jasom: defining vops can make for very confusing to read code: https://github.com/sionescu/swap-bytes/blob/master/sbcl.lisp
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2019-09-20T15:55:47Z jcowan: Ah, I missed it because I didn't realize it could change the position as well.  Thanks, all.
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2019-09-20T15:57:54Z jcowan: That looks fine, particularly the relaxed constraint on file positions in character streams.
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2019-09-20T16:25:30Z vms14: how can I make format iterate a list ignoring the values?
2019-09-20T16:26:04Z vms14: (format nil "~{oh ~^,~}" '(1 2 3))
2019-09-20T16:26:19Z vms14: won't work because the list is not "consumed" so it never ends
2019-09-20T16:26:43Z vms14: I don't want the numbers, just dotimes behavior
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2019-09-20T16:32:42Z Xach: vms14: stick a ~* in the {}
2019-09-20T16:32:57Z Xach: (format nil "~{hi~*~^,  ~}" '(42 1 2 1)) => "hi,  hi,  hi,  hi"
2019-09-20T16:33:10Z Xach: maybe there are other options
2019-09-20T16:33:10Z vms14: oh
2019-09-20T16:33:19Z vms14: ty Xach
2019-09-20T16:33:29Z Xach: dn
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2019-09-20T19:59:57Z verisimilitude: So, what are you working on?
2019-09-20T20:00:15Z verisimilitude: I'm working on TCP libraries, as I don't want to use USOCKET or IOlib.
2019-09-20T20:01:25Z verisimilitude: I have an experimental little TCP client library I've named EASY-PEASY-TCP I'm currently fiddling with; it's only useful for basic network clients, but it's only intended for such things.
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2019-09-20T20:09:23Z clothespin_: I'm working on mechanical CAD
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2019-09-20T20:24:38Z Shinmera: Working on a UI toolkit
2019-09-20T20:25:18Z clothespin_: I use your vector and matrix libs
2019-09-20T20:25:25Z Shinmera: Nice!
2019-09-20T20:25:39Z Shinmera: Hope there isn't too much trouble there :)
2019-09-20T20:25:52Z clothespin_: I'll try to submit a patch
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2019-09-20T20:26:51Z clothespin_: what are the details of your ui toolkit?
2019-09-20T20:27:15Z Shinmera: Uh, you'll have to be more specific than that.
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2019-09-20T20:27:35Z Shinmera: I'm not sure how to answer that question
2019-09-20T20:27:46Z clothespin_: is it completely lisp or does it wrap a c++ lib or something?
2019-09-20T20:27:54Z Shinmera: Lisp native
2019-09-20T20:27:57Z Shinmera: No point, otherwise.
2019-09-20T20:28:36Z clothespin_: I wrapped "Dear ImGui"
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2019-09-20T20:31:49Z Shinmera: Yeah, I'm trying really hard to reduce the number of foreign libraries to zero.
2019-09-20T20:32:25Z clothespin_: they are a hassell
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2019-09-20T20:34:06Z Shinmera: I'm also not a fan of immediate mode UIs, so that's another thing :)
2019-09-20T20:35:12Z clothespin_: Using Imgui has provided a cheap way of moving forward for me
2019-09-20T20:35:41Z Shinmera: Sure. I don't blame anyone for using it, it's pretty nifty and easy to hook up.
2019-09-20T20:36:37Z clothespin_: Mirai had an interesting ui: HI: human interface
2019-09-20T20:36:48Z clothespin_: I think it was all lisp
2019-09-20T20:37:11Z clothespin_: I wanted to use it for this project but Mirai died
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2019-09-20T20:39:35Z Shinmera: Hopefully McCLIM will grow a GL Core backend at some point
2019-09-20T20:39:42Z Shinmera: So that there's an alternative out there.
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2019-09-20T20:40:24Z clothespin_: I'm not sure I'm sold on CLIM.
2019-09-20T20:40:36Z clothespin_: HI had it's roots in dynamic windows
2019-09-20T20:41:38Z clothespin_: I assume your UI toolkit is not McCLIM?
2019-09-20T20:41:42Z Shinmera: No.
2019-09-20T20:42:09Z Shinmera: Like most things I do it's from scratch.
2019-09-20T20:42:15Z clothespin_: Do you have a link?
2019-09-20T20:42:32Z Shinmera: https://shirakumo.org/projects/alloy
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2019-09-20T20:48:11Z Shinmera: I hope to write some articles and maybe even a paper once things have crystallised a bit more.
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2019-09-20T20:48:32Z jasom: anyone know when SBCL won't open-code sb-rotate-byte:%rotate-byte?  I'm rotating by a constant value and a hand-written rotate-byte is over an order-of-magnitude faster becuase it's making a function-call when I use sb-rotate-byte:rotate-byte
2019-09-20T20:49:06Z Shinmera: Probably a better question for #sbcl
2019-09-20T20:50:16Z clothespin_: What are you using for a backend?
2019-09-20T20:50:34Z Shinmera: Alloy is primarily a protocol, so it's backend agnostic.
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2019-09-20T20:50:49Z clothespin_: you don't have a test backend?
2019-09-20T20:50:49Z Shinmera: I'm mostly working on a GL one though since that's what's useful to me at the moment.
2019-09-20T20:51:00Z Shinmera: I have a GL and an SVG one.
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2019-09-20T20:52:40Z clothespin_: the latest release of 3d-matrices and 3d-vectors fixed some problems in the quicklisp version, suchas mlookat
2019-09-20T20:53:32Z clothespin_: now everything seems to be working sans a few compiler warnings
2019-09-20T20:55:08Z clothespin_: I am planning on making it compile seperate packages for single-float and double-float since I use both at the same time
2019-09-20T20:55:18Z Shinmera: Oh boy
2019-09-20T20:55:43Z clothespin_: and I'm considering making the memory be in the foreign heap for communication with C++
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2019-09-20T20:57:06Z Shinmera: On SBCL at least you should be able to just pin the matrix arrays and get a pointer while pinned.
2019-09-20T20:57:30Z clothespin_: yeah, i use that for vertex and index buffers
2019-09-20T20:57:57Z clothespin_: allegro cl has something similar, and i assume LW does too
2019-09-20T20:58:11Z Shinmera: probably. A lot of implementations do
2019-09-20T20:58:23Z LiamH: Take a look at static-vectors.
2019-09-20T20:58:41Z clothespin_: it would be cool if sbcl allowed you to stack allocate arrays and structs
2019-09-20T20:58:41Z Shinmera: LiamH: static-vectors are not so nice since they require manual deallocation.
2019-09-20T20:59:04Z clothespin_: I use finalizations
2019-09-20T20:59:11Z LiamH: Shinmera trivial-garbage helps with that
2019-09-20T20:59:21Z Shinmera: Not if the foreign memory might have pointers.
2019-09-20T20:59:25Z Shinmera: Which is, kinda the point
2019-09-20T20:59:55Z clothespin_: the structs I'm using are just coordinates and such which get copied around
2019-09-20T21:00:03Z Shinmera: static-vectors are also moot if the vector comes from or is shared with some native lisp library.
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2019-09-20T21:01:31Z clothespin_: stack allocated vectors would be nice so you don't fragment your foreign heap
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2019-09-20T21:15:09Z Xach: Do you think you might go to the SBCL20 get-together?
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2019-09-20T21:15:51Z Shinmera: I've been considering it a lot, but I don't know. Current university semester looks deadly busy, especially later in the year
2019-09-20T21:16:14Z Shinmera: I could maybe do a one-day trip, I don't know. Would have to check travel times and all.
2019-09-20T21:16:51Z Xach: I missed ELS so it would be wonderful to see my euro-pals again soon
2019-09-20T21:17:06Z Shinmera: You could also wait for ELS20 in Zürich :)
2019-09-20T21:17:20Z Xach: !!!
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2019-09-20T21:17:28Z Xach: I didn't know it had been announced!
2019-09-20T21:17:42Z Shinmera: It's not published yet but it was announced at the end of this year's
2019-09-20T21:17:55Z Xach: Cool, I will try to visit
2019-09-20T21:18:03Z Shinmera: Nice!
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2019-09-20T21:19:19Z Xach: I enjoyed my time in Zürich last year (3 minutes running from airport gate to airport gate for my ELS connection)
2019-09-20T21:19:29Z Shinmera: Hah
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2019-09-20T21:19:56Z Shinmera: I'll bother didier to check my els-web changes and maybe publish it if he thinks it's time.
2019-09-20T21:22:38Z akoana: Xach: will we be able to have a (ql:quickload "grüezi") then :)
2019-09-20T21:25:41Z verisimilitude: So you're using a C library for your CAD GUI, clothespin_?
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2019-09-20T21:59:54Z clothespin_: I'm using a C++ library, Opencascade
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2019-09-20T22:00:27Z clothespin_: and "Dear Imgui" also c++
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2019-09-20T22:42:52Z fragamus: where in the blue blazes is the source file containing the main for lisp.run in clisp
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2019-09-21T00:29:34Z vms14: how can I make a shorthand for hunchentoot?
2019-09-21T00:29:36Z vms14: I have this
2019-09-21T00:29:39Z vms14: (defmacro route (url (&key (type "text/html") parameters) &body content)
2019-09-21T00:29:39Z vms14:   `(tbnl:define-easy-handler (,(gensym) :uri ,url) (,@parameters)
2019-09-21T00:29:39Z vms14: 	  (setf (tbnl:content-type*) ,type)
2019-09-21T00:29:39Z vms14: 	  ,@content))
2019-09-21T00:29:42Z vms14:  
2019-09-21T00:29:58Z vms14: and I call it with (route "/" () (format nil "~a~a" (header) (body (select "posts"))))
2019-09-21T00:30:13Z vms14: but it's wrong and I don't know why
2019-09-21T00:30:57Z vms14: it's for the parameters define-easy-handler is expecting?
2019-09-21T00:32:41Z no-defun-allowed: Have you tried macroexpanding it?
2019-09-21T00:32:48Z vms14: nope, I'll look
2019-09-21T00:32:49Z vms14: ty
2019-09-21T00:33:00Z no-defun-allowed: (Also, I probably wouldn't count on TBNL sticking, it's literally To Be Named Later, and it has been named.)
2019-09-21T00:33:13Z vms14: yeah, but is shorter
2019-09-21T00:33:13Z vms14: xD
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2019-09-21T00:33:49Z no-defun-allowed: You could use a package-local nickname now, unless you have some weird targets.
2019-09-21T00:34:28Z vms14: oh, it works
2019-09-21T00:34:31Z no-defun-allowed: Or you could use the package if it really bothers you, since Hunchentoot isn't going to change much soon, but that is still bad form to some people.
2019-09-21T00:34:39Z vms14: I've put header instead of head
2019-09-21T00:34:48Z vms14: right
2019-09-21T00:34:57Z vms14: I need to learn more about common lisp packages
2019-09-21T00:35:15Z vms14: I know basic stuff but I need more
2019-09-21T00:36:00Z vms14: I went to perl, and now returning to lisp, so it's like starting again
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2019-09-21T00:41:44Z vms14: and I should learn more about hunchentoot instead of use the easy handler
2019-09-21T00:42:03Z aeth: Speaking of packages, I think cl-documents is what I might call my Markdown->HTML library (and main package) since it'll stay strictly in the realm of text files (i.e. documents) rather than binary files (e.g. opticl with image files)
2019-09-21T00:43:23Z aeth: or maybe cl-document (singular) because then that's also a form of the verb "to document", so it would be a wordplay on its primary purpose, documentation
2019-09-21T00:44:11Z aeth: I'm half tempted to use trivial- instead of cl- because I suspect that it will grow into something nontrivial over time, so it would be funny to have the trivial- prefix.
2019-09-21T00:49:39Z vms14: aeth: fork it before it grows if the trivial one does not have exactly what you want
2019-09-21T00:49:50Z vms14: so you'll have something you're happy forever
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2019-09-21T03:43:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-21T03:56:57Z tourjin: I opened emacs ctrl+x 3 . and compiled ctrl+c ctrl+c then error occured . left windows shows the errors. but how can I go back to original file?
2019-09-21T03:57:48Z no-defun-allowed: Press q on the error window.
2019-09-21T03:58:28Z tourjin: oh. thank you.
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2019-09-21T04:13:23Z tourjin: in my file I wrote a defparameter on first line. then I wrote a defun using that parameter . but if I compile it . error says  undefined variable: *MYVAR*. is slime different from writing in command line?
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2019-09-21T04:16:28Z aeth: tourjin: are you sure both are *MYVAR*?
2019-09-21T04:17:59Z tourjin: yes
2019-09-21T04:18:07Z tourjin: hm.. I found something
2019-09-21T04:18:41Z tourjin: if I move cursor on that line and ctrl +c ctrl + c . then it runs.
2019-09-21T04:20:08Z tourjin: is this normal?
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2019-09-21T04:27:57Z pjb: tourjin: C-c C-c only compiles 1 defun.  Having stuff in buffers, or even in files doesn't help at all.
2019-09-21T04:28:11Z pjb: tourjin: use C-c C-k to compile the whole file.
2019-09-21T04:28:36Z tourjin: hm.. ctrl+c ctrl+c just compiles one line or one block where the cursor is . is this normal?
2019-09-21T04:28:56Z tourjin: oh yes pjb i found it now.
2019-09-21T04:29:06Z tourjin: ok c-c c-k
2019-09-21T04:29:31Z tourjin: thank you. that was what i'm looking for.
2019-09-21T04:30:31Z pjb: tourjin: it's not lines or blocks, it's s-expressions.
2019-09-21T04:33:55Z tourjin: how do u memorize the whole keywords? C-c C-c , I can figure it out it's a acronym of compile. what does k stand for?
2019-09-21T04:34:49Z beach: tourjin: You don't.  Your fingers will remember at some point and you no longer have to think about it.
2019-09-21T04:35:20Z beach: tourjin: And please don't use abbreviations such as "u" for "you".  Turn on your abbrev processor.
2019-09-21T04:38:06Z tourjin: thank you pjb you remind me i have a lot of docs to read. I don't get what s-expressions means. i see . i shoud'nt use 'u'. thank you. by the way it's not abbrev processor. I even don't know how to use abbrev processor in irc. it was me who typed 'u'. :-)
2019-09-21T04:38:46Z aeth: C-c C-c is for Command: Compile function. C-c C-k is for Command: Kompile file, since C was taken. at least, that's my justification, who knows what the authors thought?
2019-09-21T04:38:59Z aeth: s/Compile function/Compile form/
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2019-09-21T04:40:58Z tourjin: I think that's a good tip for justification of compile and kompile. thank you aeth
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2019-09-21T04:45:10Z beach: tourjin: If you use a decent program for IRC, such as ERC for Emacs, it will have an abbrev processor, so that you can define abbreviations.  For example, you can make "u" expand to "you" automatically every time you type it as a word.
2019-09-21T04:45:36Z beach: tourjin: I never type "Good morning everyone!" for instance.  I just type "gme".
2019-09-21T04:46:59Z beach: tourjin: Not only does it save a lot of typing.  It also means fewer typos.
2019-09-21T04:51:13Z tourjin: i see. probably most of you must use irc in emacs. but I'm really really new to emacs or lisp.
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2019-09-21T04:54:38Z beach: Then I guess you just have to do it the hard way, i.e. type everything out.  Oh, the pain that people inflict on themselves by using mediocre tools.
2019-09-21T04:56:26Z tourjin: I would have'nt thought about irc if it was easy to find informations on lisp. now I get there was full of online documents out there and experts who will give me tips for solutions as much as even I can't comsume. thank you.
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2019-09-21T05:01:32Z aeth: I don't use IRC in Emacs because I prefer having it in a separate program. I think I might be in the minority, though. I don't even use IRC locally, I ssh into a server and have a terminal IRC running in tmux.
2019-09-21T05:03:51Z beach: aeth: But I am sure it has an abbrev processor, right?  I mean, you know to choose your tools.
2019-09-21T05:05:45Z pjb: aeth: you can use a different emacs instance for erc, if you prefer it in a separate process.
2019-09-21T05:06:14Z pjb: aeth: this is what I used to do, because of network delays: one emacs to program, one emacs for erc, and one emacs for gnus.
2019-09-21T05:06:26Z pjb: But nowadays, I just have one emacs for all.
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2019-09-21T05:11:03Z aeth: pjb: I would if I did, even if I ran IRC locally.
2019-09-21T05:11:34Z LdBeth: Good evening
2019-09-21T05:17:24Z beach: Hello LdBeth.
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2019-09-21T05:18:49Z aeth: pjb: I often restart emacs several times a programming session mainly because that's the easiest way to close a bunch of buffers
2019-09-21T05:24:00Z beach: As far as I am concerned, people are free to inflict pain on themselves by using mediocre tools, but they shouldn't export that pain to others by (say) showing badly indented code or exposing unexpanded abbreviations such as "u".
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2019-09-21T05:29:05Z thijso: I use irssi as my IRC client, mainly for historical reasons... And indeed, I have it running on a separate machine inside a screen
2019-09-21T05:29:12Z thijso: Good morning btw
2019-09-21T05:33:47Z beach: Hello thijso.
2019-09-21T05:35:34Z aeth: thijso: I used screen+irssi for a very long time when I switched to Linux a very long time ago, but I evnetually upgraded to tmux+irssi because of the superiority of tmux
2019-09-21T05:35:49Z aeth: *eventually
2019-09-21T05:36:35Z pjb: aeth: (defun kill-all-buffers () (interactive) (dolist (buffer (buffer-list)) (kill-buffer buffer)))
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2019-09-21T05:45:23Z thijso: aeth: screen does what I need it to do. I've heard of tmux and have this idea to check it out one of these days. Like for a couple of years, now... ;)
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2019-09-21T06:12:33Z jeosol: Good morning all
2019-09-21T06:14:46Z thijso: Is there a (semi-)convention for marking function names internal/external/exported and such? I've seen, for example #make-thread in bordeaux-threads, but that's mainly to distinguish it from other make-threads, I think?
2019-09-21T06:15:08Z thijso: sorry, it was %make-thread, not #
2019-09-21T06:15:25Z thijso: morning, jeosol, btw
2019-09-21T06:15:50Z thijso: much too early morning, in fact...
2019-09-21T06:15:55Z Shinmera: Just don't export it
2019-09-21T06:16:28Z Shinmera: The % is typically for functions that are closely tied to some other context and are thus "extremely internal"
2019-09-21T06:16:38Z thijso: Shinmera: yeah, obviously, but it's more a style thing I had in my mind. But there isn't really, probably
2019-09-21T06:16:47Z thijso: Right
2019-09-21T06:17:36Z thijso: Well, I basically have something now where I have an internal function that logically should have the same name as an external one
2019-09-21T06:17:51Z thijso: I'll probably go with % then
2019-09-21T06:17:52Z pjb: thijso: you write the name of exported functions explicitely in the :export list of the package.  This is the convention.
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2019-09-21T06:26:24Z jeosol: If I have an image saved from a previous run, and restart sbcl with the core file. I create a new module (defsystem) and tried to load it in and was getting errors. I am able to load the new system elsewhere through (e.g., fresh sbcl)
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2019-09-21T06:32:09Z pjb: jeosol: so what?  This morning, I got some raisin I saved, out of the fridge, and a firefly was eaten by a bird in the street.
2019-09-21T06:35:04Z pjb: jeosol: try again with: (handler-case (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :your-system) (error (err) (prin1 (class-name (class-of err))) (terpri) (princ err) (terpri)))
2019-09-21T06:35:08Z jeosol: haha, there you go again. it's not working. I am getting errors
2019-09-21T06:35:28Z jeosol: pjb: thanks, let me try that
2019-09-21T06:35:35Z pjb: jeosol: you're not getting random errors, you're gettint a very specific error!
2019-09-21T06:35:57Z pjb: If you don't take the very specific information from this very specific error into account you won't be able to solve your problem.
2019-09-21T06:36:47Z thijso: I think what pjb is getting at is that it helps if you actually tell us exactly *what* errors you're getting, jeosol
2019-09-21T06:37:13Z pjb: also, what expression you use to load it.
2019-09-21T06:38:08Z jeosol: I use (ql:quickload ...)
2019-09-21T06:38:49Z pjb: So: (handler-case (ql:quickload :your-system) (error (err) (prin1 (class-name (class-of err))) (terpri) (princ err) (terpri)))
2019-09-21T06:39:41Z jeosol: I get component: name not found.
2019-09-21T06:40:06Z jeosol: Thanks. Just a tired now. btw raisin and firefly comment was funny
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2019-09-21T06:47:10Z pjb: jeosol: so what component is not found? Is it your system itself?
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2019-09-21T06:57:52Z jeosol: Yeah, the system itself, not sure why. I just rebuilt the whole thing again and resaved the image.
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2019-09-21T07:00:33Z pjb: there should be a file named something.asd stored in one directory where quicklisp will search it.  For example, in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2019-09-21T07:01:11Z pjb: The name of the file doesn't need to be related to the name of the system, but it may help humans to retrieve things.  So name it: your-system.asd
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2019-09-21T08:03:16Z tourjin: in emacs slime , how can I reuse previous command? upper arrow does'nt work.
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2019-09-21T08:06:04Z tourjin: hm.. I found it alt+p. everything works with ctrl or alt keys.
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2019-09-21T09:55:07Z no-defun-allowed: What libraries are there for playing sound?
2019-09-21T09:55:47Z Shinmera: cl-out123, harmony, mixalot
2019-09-21T09:56:00Z Shinmera: "just cffi to pulse/alsa"
2019-09-21T09:56:23Z no-defun-allowed: Tried to cffi to alsa, I can't keep my timing straight apparently, and it sounds terrible.
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2019-09-21T09:56:55Z Shinmera: if your sample production is too slow no audio player is gonna help you.
2019-09-21T09:57:56Z MichaelRaskin: Well, if it is fast but non-uniform, one could try to increase bufferisation
2019-09-21T09:58:01Z no-defun-allowed: I mean that it's fast enough, but I can't write out bytes at the right time or something that I'm not sure about since I've never tried "realtime" sound production.
2019-09-21T09:58:31Z Shinmera: alsa is pretty lenient. You just give it a buffer and tell it how many samples it has.
2019-09-21T09:59:24Z no-defun-allowed: I mean (yet again), I can't figure out how long to wait before putting out the next buffer I think? Harmony looks much better, since I don't have to think about that at all.
2019-09-21T09:59:44Z Shinmera: You don't need to wait.
2019-09-21T10:00:19Z Shinmera: Harmony will work as long as there's no resampling that needs doing
2019-09-21T10:00:44Z Shinmera: Been years and I still haven't gotten around to rewriting libmixed to work on ring buffers.
2019-09-21T10:00:46Z Shinmera: Sad times.
2019-09-21T10:00:48Z no-defun-allowed: If I don't (in ALSA), won't I generate too much into the future and miss any more events that my synthesiser takes?
2019-09-21T10:01:03Z Shinmera: No, it'll block if the internal buffer is full.
2019-09-21T10:01:21Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, maybe I'll try again without waiting then.
2019-09-21T10:01:45Z Shinmera: https://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/group___p_c_m.html#gabc748a500743713eafa960c7d104ca6f
2019-09-21T10:02:24Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shirakumo/harmony/blob/master/drains/alsa.lisp#L48-L83
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2019-09-21T10:03:59Z Shinmera: Ideally Harmony should do the more sophisticated thing but it was working fine enough (so far)
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2019-09-21T10:11:41Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, I think I'll make Harmony work then.
2019-09-21T10:12:06Z no-defun-allowed: Preferably without my goddamn 61-key MIDI keyboard in the way. Thanks for another good library I didn't know about until now.
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2019-09-21T10:41:35Z Shinmera: I don't know about "good", but thanks
2019-09-21T10:42:22Z beach: This discussion reminds me of my plans to write a good FFT library.
2019-09-21T10:42:23Z no-defun-allowed: Please just take the compliment.
2019-09-21T10:43:01Z no-defun-allowed: Is something wrong with bordeaux-fft?
2019-09-21T10:43:23Z beach: That one should never have been released.  It is not optimized at all.
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2019-09-21T10:47:08Z Lycurgus: https://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation that's the documentation?
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2019-09-21T10:47:42Z no-defun-allowed: http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/software/bordeaux-fft/manual.html
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2019-09-21T10:48:12Z no-defun-allowed: Plenty of Lisp things come from Bordeaux, but that factoid is usually shadowed by the somewhat larger wine output.
2019-09-21T10:48:24Z MaiAtusmi: Hi, someone can help me with lisp?
2019-09-21T10:48:48Z MaiAtusmi: I wrote a code in prolog and I need to do the same in lisp but I can't understand the logic...
2019-09-21T10:49:30Z Shinmera: Is this a homework exercise
2019-09-21T10:49:56Z MaiAtusmi: Kind of, but I can't understand
2019-09-21T10:50:12Z MaiAtusmi: Can you still help me out?
2019-09-21T10:50:12Z Lycurgus: no-defun-allowed, ty, but I meant bordeaux itself
2019-09-21T10:50:22Z Lycurgus: the threading pkg
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2019-09-21T10:50:49Z no-defun-allowed: Bordeaux is a town in France -- oh, yeah, that's that, but that's not the same as bordeaux-fft.
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2019-09-21T10:52:00Z no-defun-allowed: "FFT" refers to the Fast Fourier Transform, which maps a sample into an approximation of its frequency components.
2019-09-21T10:52:33Z MaiAtusmi: The job is to create a regular expression controller to check if it's a regular expression
2019-09-21T10:54:00Z beach: And if the Fast Fourier Transform were written to be parallel, it would be PFFT!
2019-09-21T10:54:21Z jmercouris: MaiAtusmi: I can continue to help you on this channel, it'll be much easier than the messages on Reddit
2019-09-21T10:54:23Z MaiAtusmi: Someone knows how to create a dfa using a Regular expression?
2019-09-21T10:54:48Z jmercouris: I'm sure someone knows how to use finite automata, yes, anyone with a CS degree should, and I believe most of us here do have one
2019-09-21T10:54:54Z beach: MaiAtusmi: That's well documented.
2019-09-21T10:55:01Z Shinmera: I think you should ask your course assistants to help you.
2019-09-21T10:55:23Z MaiAtusmi: I asked but all I get is a PDF with what the function do
2019-09-21T10:55:29Z jmercouris: It's September again, and I think we should be friendly
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2019-09-21T10:55:46Z pjb: To check if a string is a regular expression, you only need a parser.
2019-09-21T10:56:02Z jmercouris: I think the goal is to check if the regular expression is a valid and logical expression
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2019-09-21T10:56:43Z jmercouris: I basically had said to the user that they should make a function called is-valid-transition or something like that with a list of acceptable state transitions and then iterate through all of the chars in the regex string checking to see if all transitions are valid
2019-09-21T10:58:34Z jmercouris: Lycurgus: that's the only documentation I've ever seen, there is also some stuff in the Lisp Cookbook
2019-09-21T10:58:55Z jmercouris: Lycurgus: here: http://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/process.html
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2019-09-21T11:01:12Z MaiAtusmi: @pjb I'm trying to create a NFA and use that
2019-09-21T11:01:53Z MaiAtusmi: How can I?
2019-09-21T11:03:05Z jmercouris: it depends, must your NFA NOT be a DFA, or is it also allowed to be a DFA?
2019-09-21T11:03:13Z beach: MaiAtusmi: All that stuff is very well documented.  I suggest you go read the relevant documents.
2019-09-21T11:04:37Z jmercouris: Also, I'm afraid that this is no longer really a Lisp question, so I can't help you, this is more of a core computer science concepts thing, which I don't think you understand. First you must understand the concepts before the implementation
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2019-09-21T11:05:53Z MaiAtusmi: Just a NFA
2019-09-21T11:06:23Z MaiAtusmi: I'm reading it... But I can't understand how to create an NFA from a RE
2019-09-21T11:07:05Z no-defun-allowed: Wikipedia mentions "Thompson's construction" which sounds just like that.
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2019-09-21T11:08:36Z beach: MaiAtusmi: That is off topic for this channel.  You should look elsewhere for help.
2019-09-21T11:10:01Z MaiAtusmi: Even if I need to write it in lisp?
2019-09-21T11:11:12Z no-defun-allowed: I think it's more of a CS theory problem than a Lisp problem until you start implementing it, but I don't know anything about DFA and regular expressions (bar cl-ppcre) so I can't say.
2019-09-21T11:11:33Z jmercouris: the only thing I know about regex is that it is the worst idea ever concieved
2019-09-21T11:11:47Z jmercouris: it comes from the kind of people who think ed is a good editor, and mastering awk is a fantastic idea
2019-09-21T11:11:52Z no-defun-allowed: The only thing I can think of is "lol no recursion"
2019-09-21T11:13:53Z Lycurgus: jmercouris, ty!
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2019-09-21T11:17:57Z pjb: MaiAtusmi: @nick doesn't work here.  Use the convention used by everybody else! nick:
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2019-09-21T11:19:33Z pjb: MaiAtusmi: basically, each node in the regexp parse tree corresponds to some subgraph of your final NFA/DFA.  It's rather trivial to build it.  Then you can use NFA/DFA theory to normalize and simplify it.
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2019-09-21T11:19:43Z MaiAtusmi: Oh okay
2019-09-21T11:20:24Z MaiAtusmi: Because I think i need 3 functions
2019-09-21T11:20:48Z MaiAtusmi: (is-regexp RE) => true if its a regular expression
2019-09-21T11:21:11Z MaiAtusmi: (nfa-regex-comp RE) => return the automa if RE is correct, if not NIL
2019-09-21T11:21:32Z MaiAtusmi: (nfa-check FA Input) => return True or False
2019-09-21T11:21:42Z MaiAtusmi: FA is just (nfa-regex-comp RE)
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2019-09-21T13:22:39Z beach: So what I want to do with the FFT is to generate assembly code by executing a Common Lisp program.  The optimal number of operations is obtained when the radix is √n for a problem of size n.
2019-09-21T13:22:46Z beach: But that is messy, because in order for good code to be generated, the radix must be a constant.  So I was thinking of generating a special version of FFT for each power of 2, up to some limit, of course.  Then the radix is known statically for each case.
2019-09-21T13:22:52Z beach: I also want to use special floating-point instructions that can do several operations in parallel, hence the assembly.
2019-09-21T13:22:54Z beach: If shuffling is required, I already have a publication with the world's fastest shuffle algorithm. :)
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2019-09-21T13:33:38Z scymtym: beach: are you aware of https://github.com/pkhuong/Napa-FFT ?
2019-09-21T13:34:05Z beach: Nope.  I'll have a look.  Thanks.
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2019-09-21T13:36:20Z scymtym: and just as important: https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/LowLevel/napa-fft2-implementation-notes.html
2019-09-21T13:38:08Z scymtym: or rather https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2012/02/22/finally-napa-fft3-is-ready-for-users/
2019-09-21T13:39:15Z beach: So it looks like I don't have to do this after all.  One down.  Excellent!
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2019-09-21T13:40:28Z beach: I must have discussed this with pkhuong at the time, and then I forgot about it.
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2019-09-21T17:42:11Z ym: Could somebody verify that xlib:colormap-plist undefined in current quicklisp CLX package?
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2019-09-21T17:47:03Z ym: Well, rgrep verified.
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2019-09-21T19:41:02Z remexre: What in-the-spec functions can actually handle paths with wildcards in them?
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2019-09-21T19:51:01Z remexre: and I guess relatedly, if I want to turn a pathname with a wildcard into a list of pathnames that match it, is there a builtin to do so
2019-09-21T19:52:08Z nirved: remexre: directory
2019-09-21T19:52:39Z remexre: oh, huh, missed that
2019-09-21T19:52:42Z remexre: thanks
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2019-09-21T20:55:21Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hi. How it coerce (coerce "1 20 30" 'list) => (list 1 20 30)?
2019-09-21T20:56:17Z asdf_asdf_asdf: It generate (list #\1 #\Space #\2 #\0 #\Space #\3 #\0).
2019-09-21T21:01:36Z edgar-rft: it coerces a vector of characters (aka string) into a list of characters
2019-09-21T21:03:15Z asdf_asdf_asdf: sbcl
2019-09-21T21:03:20Z edgar-rft: you want the string "1 20 30" to become the list (list 1 20 30) ?
2019-09-21T21:04:11Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Yes.
2019-09-21T21:06:47Z edgar-rft: not really clever code -> (read-from-string (concatenate 'string "(list " "1 20 30" ")"))
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2019-09-21T21:09:18Z asdf_asdf_asdf: edgar-rft; this is good practice?
2019-09-21T21:09:32Z aeth: no, that's why he said it wasn't really clever
2019-09-21T21:09:36Z aeth: it's a messy hack that gets the job done
2019-09-21T21:09:39Z aeth: at least for numbers
2019-09-21T21:10:31Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hm..., OK, so which fashion is better?
2019-09-21T21:10:38Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: A string is a vector of characters, so it really *is* just a fancy way of saying something similar to #(#\1 #\Space #\2 #\0 #\Space #\3 #\0) which is why you get something like that in list form when you coerce it to a list
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2019-09-21T21:11:06Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: if you want something more robust, and your input is *only* integers, then use parse-integer in a loop
2019-09-21T21:11:35Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: e.g. (parse-integer "123 456" :junk-allowed t) => (values 123 3)
2019-09-21T21:11:47Z aeth: That will tell you that it could parse the integer up to position 3, and it parsed 123. Then you have to keep iterating.
2019-09-21T21:11:59Z aeth: The junk-allowed is necessary because you want the "junk" at the end.
2019-09-21T21:13:15Z aeth: If your input is something else, then you'll need something even fancier, and edgar-rft's hack solution looks better the more work you'd have to do
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2019-09-21T21:14:52Z aeth: As an alternative to calling parse-integer with :junk-allowed, you could manually scan for the space separator and use parse-integer with :start and :end keyword arguments. If you use a more general parser from a library, you'd probably have to do this.
2019-09-21T21:16:24Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: an example of this second form, which can easily be turned into a loop: (let ((string "7 20 30") (start 0)) (parse-integer string :start start :end (position #\Space string :start start))) => (values 7 1)
2019-09-21T21:17:55Z aeth: For something more general than an integer with parse-integer, you'll need another parser, ideally from a library, with the only requirement that it also needs to support :start and :end (any good one should). Alternatively, you can use something like cl-ppcre or split-sequence to split the string on #\Space instead of tracking the start position.
2019-09-21T21:18:15Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: I hope that helps!
2019-09-21T21:18:39Z aeth: (And if it's just a throwaway script, there's nothing wrong with using edgar-rft's much simpler, but inelegant, solution)
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2019-09-21T21:27:35Z aeth: Oh, I should also add that read-from-string is itself one such parser that takes a :start and a :end, so you could use the function edgar-rft used, but with my position-iterative or string-splitting approach instead of wrapping it in "(list " and ")", but it is probably too powerful for the given task.
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2019-09-21T21:34:13Z akoana: aeth: ah@faro:~$
2019-09-21T21:34:27Z akoana: aeth: sorry, wrong paste
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2019-09-21T21:35:47Z akoana: aeth: would it be a good idea to  (setf *read-eval* nil) before using read-from-string?
2019-09-21T21:35:55Z aeth: Yes.
2019-09-21T21:36:12Z aeth: That is part of what I mean by too powerful.
2019-09-21T21:36:26Z aeth: I didn't mention that because I already had quite a wall of text.
2019-09-21T21:37:00Z aeth: You can temporarily rebind *read-eval* in a LET
2019-09-21T21:37:48Z akoana: aeth: I see, thank you
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2019-09-21T21:42:00Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @aeth; very thank You for help. It works. https://cpy.pt/7B1sdTZJ
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2019-09-21T21:45:23Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: instead of using nth-value and calling it twice, you can use multiple-value-bind like this: (multiple-value-bind (number position) (parse-integer ...))
2019-09-21T21:45:59Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: you can also use collect in your LOOP instead of pushing in a do
2019-09-21T21:46:22Z aeth: that saves you a reverse
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2019-09-21T21:47:47Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: an example of collect: (loop for i from 0 below 10 collect (* i i))
2019-09-21T21:48:40Z aeth: so you put the number you want to collect at the end, e.g. (multiple-value-bind (number position) (parse-integer ...) ... number)
2019-09-21T21:49:26Z aeth: (there are other changes you can make, but those stand out the most)
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2019-09-21T22:05:21Z fengshaun: how do I reset the symbols slime has loaded with slime-eval-buffer? I'm changing code and re-eval-ing, but now slime refuses to redefine my structs
2019-09-21T22:05:56Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @aeth; thanks for CR (Code Review). https://cpy.pt/5EpVyS6r
2019-09-21T22:07:15Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: I think that you can combine the do and the collect and get rid of the do, although you'll have to be careful that things are evaluated in the correct order
2019-09-21T22:07:22Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Is other manner to ignore argument from multiple-value-bind? I must use (declare (ignore arg))? How skip argument without (declare (ignore ...?
2019-09-21T22:08:07Z aeth: yes, but I don't think that's necessary
2019-09-21T22:08:19Z aeth: I think you can just get rid of the collect, replace the word "do" with "collect" and put j as your last line, and it should collect
2019-09-21T22:08:47Z aeth: (I'm not 100% sure without evaluating it because loops can often have ordering issues)
2019-09-21T22:09:22Z aeth: collect will collect the return value, so you don't really need both a do and a collect... you can have as complicated of a collect as you want
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2019-09-21T22:12:26Z akoana: aeth: so this would be a safer variant of edgar-rft's proposal:  https://termbin.com/ay89 - I've you care to have a look at :)
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2019-09-21T22:12:35Z akoana: s/I've/if/
2019-09-21T22:14:21Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: in case I was unclear, s/collect (parse-integer a :junk-allowed t :start junk1)// s/(declare (ignore j))// s/do/collect/ s/(setf junk1 n-v)/(setf junk1 n-v) j/ and it works (of course, you'd want better code formatting than that)
2019-09-21T22:15:27Z asdf_asdf_asdf: How delete "do" from loop, I probably don't understand.
2019-09-21T22:16:02Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: just replace "do" with "collect", you don't need an additional collect. collect will gladly do side effects like do, and the collect part only cares about the final value, which can be what you called j
2019-09-21T22:16:17Z aeth: then you don't need to ignore j, you can put j as the last position in the multiple-value-bind
2019-09-21T22:19:10Z akoana: edgar-rft: I really like your solution, it is short and why not just use the lisp reader :)
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2019-09-21T22:21:06Z aeth: akoana: yes, that works. alternatively, within the *read-eval* you can use a simple loop: (loop :for end := (position #\Space string) :then (position #\Space string :start (1+ start)) :for start := 0 :then end :while end :collect (read-from-string string t nil :start end))
2019-09-21T22:21:19Z aeth: akoana: that doesn't work if it contains no spaces, though, so you'd have to special case that
2019-09-21T22:21:38Z aeth: e.g. run the loop at least once
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2019-09-21T22:22:10Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Good? https://cpy.pt/MMURgypW
2019-09-21T22:23:41Z akoana: aeth: I'm appreciating your analysis, thank you!
2019-09-21T22:24:07Z aeth: akoana: oh oops I made a few mistakes
2019-09-21T22:24:58Z aeth: you can fix the case of it containing no spaces by doing something like (or (position ...) (length string)) or (or (position ...) (- (length string) 1)) depending on which side of the off-by-one error it's on, but I messed up the actual range as well. I think the gist is clear, though
2019-09-21T22:25:08Z aeth: (only for the initial end, in :=)
2019-09-21T22:25:59Z aeth: akoana: yes, that works, except you'll want a newline in front of the j so that it's clearer that it's a separate line. I just couldn't do that due to the restriction of IRC
2019-09-21T22:26:07Z aeth: oops... asdf_asdf_asdf: ^
2019-09-21T22:26:12Z aeth: tabbed one too many times
2019-09-21T22:26:28Z akoana: :)
2019-09-21T22:26:29Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: and in general you should fix your formatting
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2019-09-21T22:27:36Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @aeth; what I am fix?
2019-09-21T22:27:57Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: the immediate issue is just one of style... just put a newline in front of "j" so that it's clear that that's being returned in the multiple-value-bind
2019-09-21T22:28:13Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: in general, though, your style is incorrect, read a style guide, or use a tool to format the style for you
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2019-09-21T22:31:32Z akoana: aeth: why is ":for" preferred over "for" as loop keyword? I'm quite new to lisp, so looking at other peoples code there are both variants, maybe concerning namespaces or Emacs syntax highlighting?
2019-09-21T22:32:01Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @aeth; I fix it style guide https://cpy.pt/Jr8LQbJK .
2019-09-21T22:32:28Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Colon before keyword is optional myabe.
2019-09-21T22:32:33Z asdf_asdf_asdf: maybe*
2019-09-21T22:32:49Z akoana: hmm, so it does not matter?
2019-09-21T22:33:13Z akoana: loop is magic :)
2019-09-21T22:33:40Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Watch the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yl8o6r_omw .
2019-09-21T22:33:50Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Is form with :for and without for.
2019-09-21T22:34:13Z akoana: ah, I will have a look at it, thanks
2019-09-21T22:34:21Z aeth: akoana: I use :for so it stands out as a keyword in syntax highlighting (and just visually in general), yes. It also doesn't polute a local package with variables like "for". It is a minority style, though.
2019-09-21T22:35:12Z aeth: akoana, asdf_asdf_asdf: The colon before keywords in loops are because loop will accept any symbol, including keyword symbols, so it's valid
2019-09-21T22:35:58Z aeth: it's also a nice play on "keyword" since the symbols in loops like that are keywords in the sense of C++ "keywords" while :foo symbols are "keywords" in the sense of CL vocabulary
2019-09-21T22:36:12Z aeth: s/C++/C++ or Python etc./
2019-09-21T22:36:35Z akoana: aeth: heh, agree, and its definitly easier to see, good point.
2019-09-21T22:36:52Z akoana: it's*
2019-09-21T22:37:31Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: Your style is much better now. Your loop still isn't quite indented correctly, but it's hard for tools to do that. A loop is a special case. In a loop like that, the collect should be lined up with the for, moving all of the indentation over a bit. It's best just to let Emacs handle this.
2019-09-21T22:38:39Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: good job correcting the issues
2019-09-21T22:38:50Z aeth: not everyone who asks for help here actually accepts it!
2019-09-21T22:39:23Z akoana: asdf_asdf_asdf: even though I'm an old vi addict, I use Emacs for lisp exclusively and the formatting is one of the many good reasons why.
2019-09-21T22:40:32Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Formatting code will come with time usually
2019-09-21T22:40:33Z asdf_asdf_asdf: .
2019-09-21T22:41:11Z akoana: aeth: I very thankful for the advices given here, as a newbee  need that like water :)
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2019-09-21T22:51:15Z aeth: akoana: assuming one space (otherwise you have to scan for the next start point) I almost have the loop ready... I'm just getting a bug.
2019-09-21T22:51:30Z aeth: I guess I can make the loop terminate on start intead of end, but it looks a bit ugly
2019-09-21T22:51:41Z aeth: (loop :for start := 0 :then (if end (1+ end) nil) :for end := (if start (position #\Space string :start start) nil) :while start :collect (read-from-string string t nil :start start :end (or end (length string))))
2019-09-21T22:52:16Z akoana: ok, trying it in emacs...
2019-09-21T22:52:27Z aeth: just put that within the *read-eval*
2019-09-21T22:52:36Z akoana: ok
2019-09-21T22:52:50Z aeth: (sorry with in the let that rebinds the *read-eval*)
2019-09-21T22:53:13Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Which is the best instruction to shift object inside list?
2019-09-21T22:53:21Z akoana: hmm, now I'm fighting with emacs - lol
2019-09-21T22:53:38Z stylewarning: asdf_asdf_asdf: what do you mean
2019-09-21T22:53:41Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (1 5 3 2 0) => (0 1 5 3 2)
2019-09-21T22:54:02Z aeth: alexandria:rotate
2019-09-21T22:54:24Z asdf_asdf_asdf: No, in standard packages by default installed with SBCL.
2019-09-21T22:55:14Z akoana: aeth: I hopelessy messed up the code completly, could you please paste the complete example somewhere?
2019-09-21T22:55:18Z stylewarning: (IF (NULL X) NIL (CONS (FIRST (LAST X)) (BUTLAST X)))
2019-09-21T22:55:24Z stylewarning: gottem
2019-09-21T22:58:46Z akoana really should stop switching between vi and emacs too rapidly...
2019-09-21T23:01:38Z akoana: aeth: could repair my mess, yes that works, nice!
2019-09-21T23:02:48Z akoana: aeth: just wrapped it into (when (stringp string) ...
2019-09-21T23:03:10Z aeth: akoana: https://gitlab.com/snippets/1896970
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2019-09-21T23:04:10Z aeth: I hope that's correct. Quite a few off by one errors, so it took me longer than it should.
2019-09-21T23:05:14Z akoana: aeth: very kind of you, thank you!
2019-09-21T23:05:24Z aeth: At the last second, I moved my read-eval binding to be closer to the actual read call, but the original might be more efficient depending on the implementation
2019-09-21T23:05:43Z aeth: this just makes it easier to not accidentally rebind *read-eval* in one of the functions you call in the loop before the collect
2019-09-21T23:11:43Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: that's also an alternative solution to your problem... you can also replace the LET and READ-FROM-STRING in the collect with a parse-integer where you only care about the first value (since end is being set in the iteration itself)...
2019-09-21T23:11:59Z aeth: i.e. it should work with the collect part being (parse-integer string :start start :end (or end (length string)))
2019-09-21T23:12:19Z aeth: I'll put that in a comment.
2019-09-21T23:13:24Z akoana: aeth: ok, I like the version you pasted before (not restricted to integers)
2019-09-21T23:14:02Z aeth: https://gitlab.com/snippets/1896970#note_220245819
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2019-09-21T23:15:57Z akoana: aeth: thanks, downloaded it :)
2019-09-21T23:18:23Z akoana: aeth: so we could also optionally   (defun parse-and-split-string (string &optional (separator #\space) debug)
2019-09-21T23:18:40Z aeth: akoana: another version https://gitlab.com/snippets/1896970#note_220246016
2019-09-21T23:18:55Z aeth: akoana: and, yes, using a configurable separator would be the next logical extension
2019-09-21T23:19:32Z aeth: oh oops, I forgot the *read-eval* in that comment. the point's pretty clear, though
2019-09-21T23:24:07Z akoana: aeth: we soon will have a nice replacement for split-sequence, cl-ppcre:split or uiop:split-string  :)
2019-09-21T23:25:52Z akoana: aeth: seriously, I like that very much, for understanding and not to be forced to use any "external" library, I use lisp also on the raspberry pi, so it is easier to able to use clisp "standalone"
2019-09-21T23:25:53Z aeth: akoana: I mean, that's really it, isn't it? Add a no-op that doesn't parse at all, and add an alternate code path for a vector result instead of a list result, and now you have yet another split-sequence.
2019-09-21T23:26:21Z stylewarning: Programming and not being able to use libraries is sad :(
2019-09-21T23:26:25Z aeth: akoana: In fact, subseq is exactly that no-op
2019-09-21T23:27:11Z akoana: stylewarning: but having batteries included is nice sometimes :=
2019-09-21T23:27:14Z aeth: akoana: using the higher order function version: (parse-and-split-string "123 23487 39" (lambda (seq &key start end) (subseq seq start end))) => ("123" "23487" "39")
2019-09-21T23:27:40Z aeth: I think I'll add that as the final comment.
2019-09-21T23:27:50Z akoana: aeth: this is nice
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2019-09-21T23:39:16Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @stylewarning; this not working.
2019-09-21T23:39:30Z stylewarning: I typed it on my phone, what’s wrong wit it
2019-09-21T23:41:10Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I want e.g. (list 1 0 2 3 4) => (2 1 0 3 4)
2019-09-21T23:41:20Z asdf_asdf_asdf: For n = 2.
2019-09-21T23:42:22Z stylewarning: I don’t understand the requirements sorry
2019-09-21T23:43:24Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Shift element in other place.
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2019-09-21T23:45:09Z stylewarning: Do you actually mean “rotate the first n elements right by 1”
2019-09-21T23:46:51Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Rotate element right by n.
2019-09-21T23:47:29Z asdf_asdf_asdf: n = 2 remove and insert to position 0.
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2019-09-21T23:58:24Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: even if you don't use alexandria, the answer is in alexandria: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/blob/3b849bc0116ea70f215ee6b2fbf354e862aaa9dd/sequences.lisp#L62-80
2019-09-21T23:58:32Z aeth: this can inform your own solution
2019-09-21T23:58:48Z aeth: (if you only want hints instead of the answer, then that might give away too much)
2019-09-21T23:59:53Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @aeth; something easier?
2019-09-22T00:01:11Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Sorry...
2019-09-22T00:01:24Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: it is easy! two things. First, if you only care about a positive number, you only have to look at rotate-tail-to-head. Second, if you only care about lists, you only have to look at the first branch in rotate-tail-to-head, which are lines 31-37
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2019-09-22T00:02:19Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Not today, sorry.
2019-09-22T00:03:06Z aeth: oh, and it has a proper-list-length, but you can probably just replace that with length since you don't care about as many edge cases as alexandria...
2019-09-22T00:03:53Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK, thanks for all.
2019-09-22T00:03:57Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Bye.
2019-09-22T00:04:01Z aeth: bye
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2019-09-22T00:25:16Z remexre: Is there something already existing for printing objects with a subset of their slots?
2019-09-22T00:25:44Z remexre: Like say I have (defclass foo () (bar baz)) (define-print-object foo (bar))
2019-09-22T00:26:15Z remexre: this'd print a foo with a bar slot of 1 as #<FOO :BAR 1> or something, with pretty-printing and all that jazz
2019-09-22T00:33:10Z dlowe: you define a print-object method specializing on your class
2019-09-22T00:33:58Z dlowe: (defmethod print-object ((object foo) stream) (format stream "this is my foo object: ~a" foo))
2019-09-22T00:34:56Z dlowe: there is also a print-unreadable-object macro for easily producing a print-object output in a standardized manner
2019-09-22T00:36:50Z aeth: dlowe: uh, two issues with that first method: one you said foo instead of object in the print... and two you mae a recursive print that made my SBCL unhappy
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2019-09-22T00:37:21Z aeth: you probably just wanted this (defmethod print-object ((object foo) stream) (format stream "this is my foo object")) ; test with (make-instance 'foo)
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2019-09-22T00:38:15Z aeth: you probably always want "print-unreadable-object" like this: (defmethod print-object ((object foo) stream) (print-unreadable-object (object stream :type t :identity t)))
2019-09-22T00:38:21Z aeth: that gets a #<FOO {100301FCB3}>
2019-09-22T00:38:39Z aeth: you can drop the latter and just get #<FOO > if you don't have :identity t
2019-09-22T00:38:46Z dlowe: you know, I think I made that recursive print mistake the first time I made a print-object method too
2019-09-22T00:39:33Z aeth: (defmethod print-object ((object foo) stream) (print-unreadable-object (object stream :type t) (format stream "~A" 42))) ; pretend 42 is an accessor on foo, it isn't here so you can test it with (defclass foo () ()) and (make-instance 'foo)
2019-09-22T00:39:49Z aeth: remexre: this last one is what you probably almost always want ^
2019-09-22T00:40:24Z remexre: er yyeah I know about that machineryyy
2019-09-22T00:40:26Z aeth: if it's too verbose you can write a macro that hides all of that except for the "~A" 42 part and maybe optionally :identity t
2019-09-22T00:40:39Z remexre: ugh, sorry, new keyboard is multi-pressing
2019-09-22T00:41:04Z remexre: I'm trying to abstract that all down to (define-print-object CLASS-NAME (&rest SLOTS))
2019-09-22T00:41:54Z remexre: b/c the above doesn't, for example, do anything with the pretty-printer
2019-09-22T00:42:48Z aeth: remexre: (defmacro define-print-object (class (&key (type t) identity) &body body) `(defmethod print-object ((object ,class) stream) (print-unreadable-object (object stream :type ,type :identity ,identity) (format stream ,@body))))
2019-09-22T00:42:53Z aeth: remexre: (make-instance 'foo)
2019-09-22T00:42:59Z aeth: now that's just #<FOO 43>
2019-09-22T00:43:45Z aeth: remexre: if you *just* want to get it down to the slots, then you can abstract it a bit more, for instance, generate a FORMAT for every object in body (easier than generating a more advanced FORMAT string)
2019-09-22T00:44:01Z aeth: oh oops, I didn't copy (define-print-object foo () "~A" 43)
2019-09-22T00:44:21Z remexre: the body's what I want to generate though (largely because I don't wanna have to internalize the pretty printer)
2019-09-22T00:45:31Z aeth: remexre: right, so then process body to generate a (format stream "~A" ,foo) for every foo in body, and do a bit more additional processing if you don't want to have to do a slot access or accessor call in the body, either
2019-09-22T00:46:00Z aeth: then it'd wind up looking like (define-print-object foo () a b c) ; for slots or accessors a b and c, depending on which way you go
2019-09-22T00:46:17Z remexre: the "a bit more processing" seems non-trivial when pretty printing and such get involved
2019-09-22T00:46:38Z remexre: or at a minimum, I can't figure out how to get the pretty-printer to do what I want :P
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2019-09-22T00:54:10Z aeth: remexre: oh, right, you want the name of the slot as well as the slot contents
2019-09-22T00:55:39Z aeth: remexre: personally I'd do it manually with the version that I provided, if I even wrote a macro. something like this: (define-print-object foo () "~A ~A ~A ~A" :foobar (foobar foo) :quux (quux foo)) ; modify the macro to say (,class ,class) instead of (object ,class) so you can do this
2019-09-22T00:56:06Z remexre: does that handle pretty-printing?
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2019-09-22T00:56:52Z aeth: oh sorry you want "~S ~A ~S ~A" :foobar (foobar foo) :quux (quux foo)
2019-09-22T00:57:39Z aeth: That then should say #<FOO :FOOBAR whatever :QUUX whatever> or #<foo :foobar whatever :quux whatever> depending on your *print-case*
2019-09-22T00:57:55Z aeth: and I think the ~A means it will br printed as you expect.
2019-09-22T00:58:08Z remexre: huh, okay, I'll try that
2019-09-22T00:59:12Z aeth: If FORMAT doesn't do what you want, you're going to have to play with other print/write functions on the stream stream
2019-09-22T00:59:37Z remexre: yeah, it looks like it's not doing things ideally
2019-09-22T00:59:44Z remexre: my test being
2019-09-22T00:59:47Z remexre: (let ((big (loop for i upto 20 collect i))) (print-unreadable-object ((make-instance 'foo) *standard-output* :type t) (format t "~s ~a ~s ~a" :bar big :baz big)))
2019-09-22T01:00:04Z remexre: prints the :bar one one line, then :baz miserly
2019-09-22T01:00:19Z remexre: rather than each of bar and baz on their own line
2019-09-22T01:02:22Z edgar-rft: akoana: the particular problem with my (read-from-string ...) hack is that it makes it too easy to inject malicious code into a running Lisp program. It's always better to check user data from the outside world via parse-integer or some other appropriate way first.
2019-09-22T01:02:26Z remexre: really I want https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/prettier/prettier.pdf for common lisp :P
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2019-09-22T01:03:38Z aeth: akoana, edgar-rft: And *read-eval* isn't the only issue so it's best to use a library that is a known-safe read
2019-09-22T01:04:48Z aeth: so, really, only the higher order function version is good
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2019-09-22T01:06:13Z aeth: remexre: Well, ~% will get you a newline but it still might not quite give you want you want. You might be able to solve it in one format string but it's like regex... you might not be able to read the line when you're done.
2019-09-22T01:06:27Z aeth: Personally, I'd start writing a bunch of read/print/format all targeting one stream
2019-09-22T01:07:15Z remexre: yeah, I'm doing this in the process of throwing away a format string I don't remember writing (committed at 5AM, sooooo) that's mostly punctuation
2019-09-22T01:07:41Z remexre: and ideally instead having loads of write, pprint-indent, pprint-newline, etc. calls
2019-09-22T01:08:00Z aeth: well, I've never really messed with the pprint stuff, I mostly just mix write-foo and format
2019-09-22T01:08:07Z akoana: edgar-rft, aeth: thanks
2019-09-22T01:08:10Z aeth: (and terpri)
2019-09-22T01:09:49Z remexre: yeah, I'm getting dangerously close to the point where I write my own implementation of the paper I linked above :P
2019-09-22T01:10:59Z remexre: I guess I'll reread the XP paper as a "last chance" while I get dinner...
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2019-09-22T02:04:30Z remexre: ok, I think XP can't do what I want, time to create cl-wadler-pprint...
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2019-09-22T02:22:20Z White_Flame: duckduckgo always seems to find clhs.lisp.se instead of lispworks.com when searching for clhs nowadays.  I wonder why that is
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2019-09-22T02:26:44Z vms14: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/VcbxtRm9gv/
2019-09-22T02:26:49Z vms14: how can I improve this code?
2019-09-22T02:27:05Z vms14: it's simple stuff, it just computes the resistor color bands
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2019-09-22T02:27:20Z vms14: but I see a lot of repetition, like with the first and second bands
2019-09-22T02:27:29Z no-defun-allowed: You could fix the indentation and move the ecases to alists or some other associative structure.
2019-09-22T02:27:33Z vms14: the indentation was fucked somehow, but in emacs looks nice
2019-09-22T02:28:03Z White_Flame: it contains tabs, that's why
2019-09-22T02:28:04Z no-defun-allowed: You should make sure Emacs doesn't put out tabs, since text viewers tend to disagree on what size they are.
2019-09-22T02:28:19Z White_Flame: if you drag-select on the paste page, you can see that it's tabs
2019-09-22T02:28:45Z vms14: Iguess it's because I've changed stuff
2019-09-22T02:28:46Z no-defun-allowed: (coerce <number> 'float) is better written as (float <number>) and you don't have to write FIRST as FST because CL is a Lisp-2 and names won't be shadowed like that.
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2019-09-22T02:29:23Z vms14: yeah, I know about lisp2 namespaces, but I'd like to not get used to doing that
2019-09-22T02:29:42Z no-defun-allowed: (+ (* first 10) second) is probably an easier to read way of putting the bands together at the end, too.
2019-09-22T02:29:43Z White_Flame: since the first & second reusde the exact same lookup, you should defer that ot a function
2019-09-22T02:30:06Z vms14: oh lol
2019-09-22T02:30:10Z vms14: thanks
2019-09-22T02:30:21Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: FLOAT isn't as simple as it looks because of its quirks.
2019-09-22T02:30:25Z aeth: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_float.htm
2019-09-22T02:31:04Z vms14: I'll change the coerce stuff and the repetition of second
2019-09-22T02:31:06Z aeth: without a second argument it returns either the number itself if it's already a float, or the number as a single-float. So (float 1d0) is 1.0d0 but (float 1) is 1.0f0
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2019-09-22T02:31:40Z aeth: If you're using float imo you want to know what type of float you want (single or double) and provide a "prototype" as 1f0 or 1d0 (or if your lisp supports it, 1s0 or 1l0 as well)
2019-09-22T02:31:56Z aeth: otherwise which kind of float you get depends on the unknown input
2019-09-22T02:32:43Z vms14: aeth: then is better to just let it with coerce?
2019-09-22T02:33:28Z vms14: the only reason I'm using coerce is because I don't want a fraction representation
2019-09-22T02:33:53Z vms14: and didn't know how to avoid that unless I put 0.0
2019-09-22T02:34:04Z aeth: vms14: well, (coerce foo 'float) will always be single-float if it's not already a float, making it identical to FLOAT's behavior with no arguments afaik
2019-09-22T02:34:07Z aeth: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm
2019-09-22T02:34:27Z vms14: then just float, didn't know the float function exists
2019-09-22T02:34:28Z vms14: xD
2019-09-22T02:35:06Z aeth: Well, I tend to use (coerce foo 'specific-float) or a function that wraps that to make it shorter because using 1f0, 1d0, etc., to specify the type looks ugly even though the compiler uses the same thing to implement it
2019-09-22T02:35:31Z aeth: but if you're doing (coerce foo 'float) then that behavior is identical to (float foo) so FLOAT might be better
2019-09-22T02:36:07Z aeth: vms14: as for "I'd like to not get used to doing that", the thing is, you should write idiomatic code where possible in the language that you're writing imo
2019-09-22T02:36:09Z no-defun-allowed: Should I name the accessor for the slot %FOO %class-foo or class-%foo?
2019-09-22T02:36:31Z vms14: aeth: isn't bad practice?
2019-09-22T02:37:00Z vms14: well you're right
2019-09-22T02:37:11Z aeth: it's idiomatic in CL to have a foo stored in the variable foo of type foo created with the function foo... because if that feature's there why not use it?
2019-09-22T02:37:11Z vms14: it just makes more sense to name it first instead of fst
2019-09-22T02:37:32Z aeth: as for your style, I'd personally use keywords rather than symbols in your ecases
2019-09-22T02:38:32Z aeth: I'd also personally define member types for those cases so it's a type error before the ecase happens. I'd leave that as ecase. The compiler should optimize the else error part.
2019-09-22T02:38:43Z vms14: you mean (:black 0) etc?
2019-09-22T02:38:46Z aeth: yes
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2019-09-22T02:38:55Z vms14: I've tried and had an error
2019-09-22T02:38:58Z aeth: and it's just more obvious what the issue is if it's a type error instead of an ecase error
2019-09-22T02:39:07Z vms14: which I don't understand since I did that with keywords in a case
2019-09-22T02:39:27Z aeth: I'm not sure how you could have gotten an error
2019-09-22T02:39:34Z vms14: naybe was for other reason
2019-09-22T02:40:36Z vms14: yeah, it works fine with keywords, so nvm
2019-09-22T02:43:28Z aeth: vms14: what you could do is you could write a macro to define a member type and a trivial ecase function for each of your entries.
2019-09-22T02:43:31Z aeth: maybe something like (define-member-with-ecase (type-name function-name) :foo 0 :bar 1 :baz 2 :quux 3) which then expands to something like `(progn (deftype ,type-name () '(member :foo :bar :baz :quux)) (defun ,function-name (,your-gensym-here) (check-type ,your-gensym-here ,type-name) (ecase ,your-gensym-here (:foo 0) (:bar 1) (:baz 2) (:quux 3))))
2019-09-22T02:44:01Z aeth: you could also use declare instead of checktype there
2019-09-22T02:44:58Z aeth: Then you have a bunch of top-level defines for each of those long lists and you've effectively created pseudo-enums out of MEMBER types with ECASE
2019-09-22T02:46:13Z aeth: I personally love very high level top-level DEFINE-FOOs
2019-09-22T02:49:49Z vms14: I was looking for enum in common lisp
2019-09-22T02:50:04Z vms14: and found an answer in stackoverflow suggesting deftype
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2019-09-22T02:51:46Z vms14: but I don't understand what it's doing
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2019-09-22T02:52:10Z vms14: so I'll look at deftype later and learn why can act as enum
2019-09-22T02:52:44Z vms14: I've changed the coerce for float, and symbols for keywords in the ecases
2019-09-22T02:52:49Z vms14: thanks for your hints guys
2019-09-22T02:53:19Z vms14: I've also changed read-from-string for * fst 10
2019-09-22T02:53:28Z vms14: now I should change fst for first
2019-09-22T02:54:27Z vms14: done
2019-09-22T02:54:31Z vms14: ty guys
2019-09-22T02:54:42Z aeth: vms14: a member type just goes through the list and tests to see if it's eq (iirc) to a member of the list
2019-09-22T02:54:45Z vms14: what I wanted to change was the 2 ecases for one
2019-09-22T02:54:52Z vms14: but I'll let it for later
2019-09-22T02:55:06Z aeth: vms14: a '(member :foo :bar :baz :quux) probably compares the variable to all four to see if it's EQ and if not there's a type error
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2019-09-22T02:55:23Z aeth: so all it's doing is documenting the type that implicitly exists in the ecase
2019-09-22T02:55:48Z aeth: You don't need it, if I was writing the macro I suggested, I would start with just generating the case, and later add the deftype
2019-09-22T02:55:59Z aeth: It's best to grow a macro piece by piece
2019-09-22T02:56:07Z vms14: thanks for the clarification, now I get what's doing
2019-09-22T02:58:35Z aeth: vms14: usually just the member type is good enough, it's only requiring a macro because you want an actual enum (i.e. some known integer associated with the symbol), not just the emulated enum via member types
2019-09-22T02:59:02Z vms14: I guess I'll end writing some enum macro
2019-09-22T02:59:44Z vms14: this is the best of lisp, if it's missing something, you just create it
2019-09-22T02:59:52Z aeth: right
2019-09-22T03:00:01Z vms14: and you have a lot of tools to create stuff
2019-09-22T03:00:20Z vms14: manipulate lists*
2019-09-22T03:00:40Z aeth: (define-member-with-ecase (type-name function-name) :foo 0 :bar 1 :baz 2 :quux 3) or define-enum or whatever you call it is fairly simple conceptually. You have a plist body, you iterate it manually or with e.g. alexandria's plist iteration macro, and then you process it twice. Once just takes the keywords, for the member type, and the other generates the ecase "enum" function that returns the enum integer for the symbol
2019-09-22T03:00:57Z aeth: so it doesn't take much to have real(ish) enums even though they don't exist, at least not enumerated
2019-09-22T03:03:13Z aeth: You could even get fancier with the syntax if an explicit call to an enum function isn't purist enough of an enum for you, but... that's probably pushing it.
2019-09-22T03:04:14Z aeth: And this isn't even the only way to do it. Another (perhaps more direct) way just defines a bunch of constants. That's probably the other common one.
2019-09-22T03:04:21Z vms14: for a simple enum without letting you change the order, I guess a simple list could work
2019-09-22T03:04:39Z aeth: well, a list in the macro
2019-09-22T03:04:40Z vms14: by looking at the position of the matching symbol
2019-09-22T03:05:15Z aeth: You could just have something that does e.g. a symbol-macrolet or something and gives you a locally scoped enum.
2019-09-22T03:05:28Z aeth: But I think the member type + function is the Lispiest, probably
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2019-09-22T03:11:54Z vms14: ((lambda (x) (1+ (position x '(one two three)))) 'one)
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2019-09-22T03:13:23Z vms14: seems will work for simple enums
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2019-09-22T03:16:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-09-22T03:16:56Z vms14: hi beach
2019-09-22T03:17:55Z aeth: vms14: well, it deppends on if you wanted to control the number or just have a number
2019-09-22T03:19:19Z vms14: yes, for (one two three six = 6) won't work
2019-09-22T03:19:47Z vms14: well the macro could look for that, but then maybe better to just use deftype
2019-09-22T03:20:14Z aeth: with ":foo 0 :bar 1 :baz 2 :quux 3" I'm assuming you want to control the number on each because otherwise that breaks the plist assumption unless you have some default ignore-me symbol like _ or you use alists
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2019-09-22T03:21:03Z aeth: if you just want a number, ":foo :bar :baz :quux" is simpler, but if you want it to be optionally defined, it gets complicated. Probably best to make it ":foo :bar (:baz 42) :quux" in that case
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2019-09-22T03:22:49Z vms14: :foo :bar (:baz 42) :quux seems better
2019-09-22T03:23:05Z vms14: and you could even define a starting number
2019-09-22T03:23:26Z aeth: that syntax is better if you're not going to define it for most cases, plist syntax is better if you're going to define it in all cases
2019-09-22T03:23:50Z aeth: You can use loop at macro expansion time to generate the numbers that aren't provided (skipping over any that are already provided, which is the one complication there)
2019-09-22T03:24:17Z vms14: I'm not able to write macros yet
2019-09-22T03:24:21Z vms14: just little ones
2019-09-22T03:24:37Z aeth: Don't write macros, just write functions that take in lists and return lists.
2019-09-22T03:24:44Z vms14: xD
2019-09-22T03:24:52Z aeth: Then put those functions in separate files, or in eval-when and you get a trivial one-line macro
2019-09-22T03:25:06Z aeth: the only complication is gensym, which you can use alexandria for
2019-09-22T03:25:49Z vms14: I need to practice with macros, the macros I write suck
2019-09-22T03:26:06Z vms14: and no lisper is a lisper if does not know how to write macros
2019-09-22T03:26:25Z vms14: in the same sense no perl programmer is a perl programmer if does not know to use regexp
2019-09-22T03:26:52Z vms14: c programmer with pointers, etc
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2019-09-22T03:33:20Z aeth: Well, you always use macros, but rarely write them.
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2019-09-22T03:48:24Z beach: minion: memo for vms14: You should not mix quantities and units like that.  Use the quantities everywhere: resistance, tension, current.
2019-09-22T03:48:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell vms14 when he/she/it next speaks.
2019-09-22T03:49:54Z beach: Americans are particularly sloppy in that respect.  Not only do they use "voltage" when they mean "tension", but they also use things like "mileage" and "footage".  It is really dumb, because several quantities can use the same unit.
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2019-09-22T03:52:25Z beach: You don't say "what is your inchage?".  You say "What is your height?" or "How tall are you?".  And you don't say "what is your poundage?" (which in the UK would be "what is your stonage?").  You say "What is your weight?".
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2019-09-22T04:29:21Z remexre: is there an implementation-independent version of stream-output-width?
2019-09-22T04:29:33Z remexre: or rather, a trivial- package providing it
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2019-09-22T05:19:25Z tourjin: if i opend split window with C-x 3 , and M-x tetris on left window. after I opened a file on left window. what am i supposed to do with tetris? how can I remove tetris? if I close the file, I see tetris again. I mean I like to remove tetris from current emacs memory. how can I unload modules I loaded?
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2019-09-22T05:21:03Z tourjin: when I shutdown emacs can I just C-x C-c even if i loaded lots of modules?
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2019-09-22T05:57:06Z ck_: tourjin: did you go through the emacs tutorial?
2019-09-22T05:59:08Z tourjin: i'm reading .
2019-09-22T05:59:14Z ck_: C-c C-k 'kills' a buffer; C-x C-b displays a list of buffers you can navigate through, pressing 'k' on them marks those for removal, 'x' applies the changes.
2019-09-22T05:59:45Z ck_: these are pretty fundamental and I'd advise you to please go through the manual before asking those kinds of questions; there's also #emacs
2019-09-22T06:00:13Z pjb: ck_: C-x k
2019-09-22T06:00:38Z ck_: pjb: exercise for the reader
2019-09-22T06:00:44Z tourjin: thank you. it was hard to find proper keyword.
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2019-09-22T06:02:25Z ck_: tourjin: C-h t gives you the tutorial. work through that one.  But as you noticed by my mistaking C-c C-k for C-x k, after a while there's not really those letters on your mind anymore, your fingers just press the buttons
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2019-09-22T06:19:46Z White_Flame: does the standard RANDOM functionality allow seeding the random state in a way that is reliably repeatable?
2019-09-22T06:19:59Z White_Flame: ie, in most other languages you can give it an integer
2019-09-22T06:21:34Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think the nature of the random number generator is specified in CL, so there can't be a number that maps to a random state.
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2019-09-22T06:21:59Z White_Flame: yeah, it seems that the only thing you can do is grab the current, or make a new fully randomized one
2019-09-22T06:22:23Z White_Flame: but I'd like to seed it in some way that, regardless of restarting the image from scratch, it can generate a repeatable sequence
2019-09-22T06:22:33Z no-defun-allowed: At least on SBCL, CCL and CLISP, you can print the random state readably though.
2019-09-22T06:22:50Z White_Flame: yeah, and it is pretty large
2019-09-22T06:22:58Z White_Flame: and not easily seedable from a single int
2019-09-22T06:23:19Z White_Flame: (making a another-language-in-CL, where that language wants an int-seedable PRNG)
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2019-09-22T06:48:17Z Shinmera: White_Flame: you can't do that portably, and that's the primary reason I started writing some RNGs myself.
2019-09-22T06:48:41Z White_Flame: yep.  do you have some posted anywhere?
2019-09-22T06:48:51Z Shinmera: https://github.com/shinmera/random-state
2019-09-22T06:48:56Z White_Flame: thx
2019-09-22T06:49:09Z Shinmera: They're not "high performance" though so they might not suit you rneeds.
2019-09-22T06:49:23Z White_Flame: I don't think I need to care about that
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2019-09-22T07:27:44Z jackdaniel: ecl has an extension for seeding rng
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2019-09-22T07:27:58Z jackdaniel: (and can print it readably)
2019-09-22T07:31:37Z aeth: if ECL and SBCL can seed RNG, and you don't care about the seed being portable, then you could write a portability library around seeding (SBCL's random seed is pretty straightforward)
2019-09-22T07:31:41Z aeth: I'm not sure about CCL
2019-09-22T07:32:12Z aeth: and that portability library would work on every implementation if it just falls back to not doing anything if it can't seed
2019-09-22T07:32:25Z aeth: s/anything/any seeding/
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2019-09-22T07:48:34Z jackdaniel: one thing is that to my knowledge distribution of rng's is uniform and I'm not aware of cl implementations allowing changing that
2019-09-22T07:48:49Z jackdaniel: so if you need non~uniform distribution indeed writing a library seems to be the best choice
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2019-09-22T09:06:01Z tfb: White_Flame: all implementations can print random-state objects so they can be read in the same implementation
2019-09-22T09:06:27Z tfb: that's in the spec
2019-09-22T09:06:41Z White_Flame: yeah, that doesn't really help you init one from an integer
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2019-09-22T09:06:52Z White_Flame: only snapshot some arbitrary one
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2019-09-22T09:07:51Z White_Flame: besides, this should be working now, with a manual prng
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2019-09-22T09:13:56Z tfb: I guess I don't understand the requirement to seed the PRNG from an integer.  That means it can only have as many bits of state as are in a (presumably) fixnum
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2019-09-22T09:14:33Z tfb: But to answer your original question: yes, you can seed a CL RNG in a way which is repeatable in an implementation, just not with an integer
2019-09-22T09:14:37Z White_Flame: implementing another language in CL
2019-09-22T09:14:44Z tfb: I guess I don't understand the requirement to seed the PRNG from an integer.  That means it can only have as many bits of state as are in a (presumably) fixnum
2019-09-22T09:15:17Z White_Flame: and that other language has seeding from an integer
2019-09-22T09:15:35Z Shinmera: tfb: It gives you reproducibility.
2019-09-22T09:16:31Z Shinmera: It can also be useful to allow the user to specify a seed easily.
2019-09-22T09:16:46Z White_Flame: moreover, multiple different seeds easily
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2019-09-22T09:17:27Z tfb: Shinmera: CL has that (within an implementation).  If you want cross-implementation portability you necessarily have to use a common PRNG algorithm
2019-09-22T09:17:32Z White_Flame: I mean sure, an integer is as arbitrary as any random-state object.  But given source code that seeds with an integer, I can't convert that into a random-state object sensibly
2019-09-22T09:18:57Z tfb: White_Flame: yes, obviously you're just dealing with a language with a deficient spec, that's just going to make life hard.
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2019-09-22T09:37:04Z White_Flame: These ,@ clauses should line up, shouldn't they?  Does Tab align them probably in your emacs/slime? https://pastebin.com/hSdMmWET
2019-09-22T09:38:17Z White_Flame: I do have parenscript enabled as well
2019-09-22T09:38:30Z White_Flame: erm, paredit I mean
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2019-09-22T09:58:41Z White_Flame: If one of my macro parameters is a backquoted list, can I append to it and add comma terms somehow portably?
2019-09-22T09:59:42Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think the representation for backquote is portable at all.
2019-09-22T10:00:02Z White_Flame: I'm trying ,@ games but I don't think they can breach it
2019-09-22T10:00:06Z no-defun-allowed: Though fare-quasiquote replaces the quasiquote reader macros with something consistent.
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2019-09-22T10:05:55Z White_Flame is moving from triple-backquote to double-backquote and making it less general in order to work
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2019-09-22T10:07:53Z MichaelRaskin: Representation of quasiquote is implementation dependent
2019-09-22T10:07:57Z no-defun-allowed moves away from White_Flame, unsure how triple backquote was an attempt to start with
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2019-09-22T10:08:26Z MichaelRaskin: Judging from painlessness of it for Agnostic Lizard, I think that most of the options are relatively sane
2019-09-22T10:08:52Z White_Flame: no-defun-allowed: macro which takes backquoted clauses and builds up a defmacro-building defmacro inside it
2019-09-22T10:08:57Z MichaelRaskin: So you could just read "`(a ,b)" and analyze it
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2019-09-22T15:36:47Z thijso: Is hashtable access and manipulation thread safe? Or is that implementation dependant?
2019-09-22T15:38:38Z Xach: thijso: implementation
2019-09-22T15:38:44Z Xach: thijso: threads are not addressed by the standard
2019-09-22T15:38:55Z Shinmera: the latter, and it typically is not safe unless you pass extra options.
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2019-09-22T15:43:44Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @thijso; type (apropos "hash").
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2019-09-22T15:45:30Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: I am not sure whether you saw my remark to you the other day.  I was saying that, if you submit code for others to read, you should make sure it respects established conventions in terms of naming and indentation.  For example, CamelCase is not used in Common Lisp, and instead, words are lower case, and separated by a hyphen.
2019-09-22T15:46:35Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @beach OK, but what You think?
2019-09-22T15:47:52Z thijso: thanks
2019-09-22T15:48:21Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: Exactly what I said.  Don't use CamelCase like ThisThingHere.  Write this-thing-here instead.
2019-09-22T15:48:31Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: And respect the conventions for indentation.
2019-09-22T15:49:06Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: And we don't use the `@person' convention here in #lisp.  Use `person:' instead.
2019-09-22T15:49:11Z asdf_asdf_asdf: My business (case), whether I use CamelCase whether not.
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2019-09-22T15:49:29Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: You need to observe what other people do and do the same.
2019-09-22T15:49:49Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: You can do what you want, but then keep your code to yourself and don't ask for remarks on it.
2019-09-22T15:50:11Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: If you ask for remarks, then remarks are what you get.
2019-09-22T15:50:23Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK, You stop a spam.
2019-09-22T15:50:32Z beach: What?
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2019-09-22T15:51:33Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Why are you writing this, I think I know.
2019-09-22T15:52:21Z beach: Good for you.
2019-09-22T15:53:14Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Better find for me, instructions which need to "Between two Sets".
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2019-09-22T15:57:15Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: I am terribly sorry.  I thought you asked for remarks because you wanted your code to be scrutinized by #lisp participants so that you could improve it.  I was wrong.   I won't make that mistake again.
2019-09-22T15:57:38Z ck_: what is an instruction which needs to between two sets? How do you between in the first place.
2019-09-22T15:58:55Z asdf_asdf_asdf: 2 4
2019-09-22T15:59:09Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Result: 4, 8, 16.
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2019-09-22T16:00:18Z ck_: you want powers of two in an integer interval?
2019-09-22T16:00:21Z ck_: Why?
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2019-09-22T16:02:53Z asdf_asdf_asdf: 96%16=0, 32%16=0, 16%16=0; 96%8=0, 32%8=0, 16%8=0; 96%4=0, 32%4=0, 16%4=0.
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2019-09-22T16:03:02Z asdf_asdf_asdf: % - modulo
2019-09-22T16:04:54Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Which is good way to solve it task?
2019-09-22T16:05:27Z ck_: clhs mod
2019-09-22T16:05:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_mod.htm
2019-09-22T16:08:56Z ck_: asdf_asdf_asdf: Is this some sort of online programming test or course?
2019-09-22T16:09:15Z asdf_asdf_asdf: https://www.hackerrank.com/challenges/between-two-sets/problem?h_r=next-challenge&h_v=zen
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2019-09-22T16:18:20Z ck_: Wow "hackerrank", that sounds pretty elite. I think I am not qualified for this. Good Luck!
2019-09-22T16:18:33Z ck_: (also, Common Lisp is not among the languages you can submit there)
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2019-09-22T16:27:00Z clothespin: Common Lisp is like a ghost language in the market
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2019-09-22T19:21:27Z asarch: Hallo! Hallo! Wie geht's?
2019-09-22T19:21:45Z asarch: I have this small OpenAllegroServe app: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/586086
2019-09-22T19:22:07Z asarch: And when I try to dispatch a line like: "agda-stdlib-doc - biblioteca estándar para Agda — documentación"
2019-09-22T19:22:42Z asarch: I get this from SBCL: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/586087
2019-09-22T19:23:16Z Bike: maybe it only works with ascii
2019-09-22T19:23:26Z asarch: Oh :-(
2019-09-22T19:23:47Z Bike: 8212 is an em dash
2019-09-22T19:23:55Z Bike: like you have there
2019-09-22T19:24:32Z Bike: there may be some kind of configuration to use unicode?
2019-09-22T19:28:29Z asarch: Reading its documentation, it seems that there is trick for that: (with-http-response (req ent) (with-http-body (req ent :external-format (crlf-base-ef :iso8859-2)) ... generate and write page here..)
2019-09-22T19:28:47Z asarch: By using :utf-8 but I am getting the same results :-(
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2019-09-22T22:55:13Z remexre: so I've got a tree of objects, where the leaves can either be of class optimized-leaf or unoptimized-leaf (for example's sake, let's say optimized-leaf is a bit-vector and unoptimized-leaf is a (vector t))
2019-09-22T22:55:42Z remexre: I want to be able to write values that are trits, where (deftype trit () '(or bit (eql :mu)))
2019-09-22T22:55:58Z remexre: would the implementation of (write-trit LEAF TRIT) be a reasonable use of change-class?
2019-09-22T22:56:09Z remexre: and if not, is there a better way to do this
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2019-09-22T23:20:08Z stylewarning: remexre: if it’s truly bit vectors, why not split the difference and use a specialized array of (UNSIGNED-BYTE 2) or so?
2019-09-22T23:20:59Z remexre: it's not actually bitvectors :P they're just an example of a representation that can densely store data, but aren't compatible with all the values I wanna store
2019-09-22T23:21:21Z stylewarning: remexre: Would everything start optimized, then possibly be unoptimized? If the tree is the “owner” of the leaves, I think it’s preferable to mutate the tree instead of changing the class. If the objects are strewn around everywhere, then maybe it’s easier to use change class
2019-09-22T23:22:08Z remexre: pretty much, yeah; the tree does own the leaves, i.e. the existence of the leaves is an implementation detail
2019-09-22T23:22:37Z remexre: in your version, would the (write-trit LEAF TRIT) return a new LEAF, then?
2019-09-22T23:24:25Z stylewarning: I probably wouldn’t have a WRITE-TRIT function, I’d have functions to operate on the tree instead, and down deep I’d have %WRITE-BIT and %WRITE-TRIT which work on the storages directly
2019-09-22T23:25:47Z stylewarning: that is, id want to dispatch on the value as soon as possible, not at the last moment when all I’ve got is a lead
2019-09-22T23:25:50Z stylewarning: leaf*
2019-09-22T23:26:11Z remexre: so would WRITE-TRIT-TO-TREE test the leaf types, and do some sorta (setf (left tree) (promote (left tree)))-looking thing?
2019-09-22T23:26:31Z stylewarning: Yes
2019-09-22T23:26:50Z remexre: hm, ok
2019-09-22T23:27:03Z stylewarning: Is there any case in which you’d optimize when you write a trit?
2019-09-22T23:27:15Z stylewarning: Probably not, you’d need to inspect all values
2019-09-22T23:27:24Z remexre: yeah, I don't think I would
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2019-09-23T03:39:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-23T03:43:22Z ahungry: mornin
2019-09-23T03:45:11Z sardonumpsa: goo' mo' b'.
2019-09-23T03:45:22Z beach: I find the example/question of remexre impossible to follow because of all the oversimplifications.  You can't change the class of a vector, nor of a bit or :mu.
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2019-09-23T03:49:23Z beach: sardonumpsa: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
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2019-09-23T03:58:55Z loke: I have a regression is clouseay
2019-09-23T03:59:01Z loke: Clouseau
2019-09-23T03:59:16Z beach: :(
2019-09-23T03:59:33Z loke: McCLIM from the 19'th of this month is fine, but the latest version throws an SBCL AVER when loading Clouseau
2019-09-23T04:00:00Z beach: You may want to inform #clim as well.
2019-09-23T04:00:07Z loke: It happens reliably when building Climaxima for Flatpak, but not on my laptop.
2019-09-23T04:00:17Z loke: Oops. Yes, that were I intended to post it.
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2019-09-23T04:12:42Z beach: remexre: If I understand what you are doing, it looks similar to what I do in Cluffer.  Cluffer is a tree (representing a sequence) of editor lines stored in the leaves of the tree.
2019-09-23T04:12:49Z beach: At any point in time, one line is "open", so it is represented as a gap buffer for fast updates.  Other lines are "closed", so they are represented as something more compact.
2019-09-23T04:13:06Z beach: When a closed line is about to be modified, the currently open line is first closed.  Then I inspect the contents.
2019-09-23T04:13:17Z beach: If there are objects in it other than characters, I create a simple vector and move the contents of the gap buffer to it.
2019-09-23T04:13:28Z beach: If it contains only characters, but not only base characters,  I create a simple string.
2019-09-23T04:13:32Z beach: And if it contains only base characters, I create a simple base string.  Maybe I haven't implemented all these optimization yet, but that's the idea at least.
2019-09-23T04:14:09Z beach: remexre: But, since all these objects are instance of built-in classes, I can't reliably use change-class.
2019-09-23T04:15:24Z remexre: Okay, that sounds enough like my problem
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2019-09-23T04:15:49Z remexre: And I'd be using classes or structs wrapping the primitive classes
2019-09-23T04:16:48Z beach: I suppose you mean "standard classes".  You can use change-class on one of those instances, but that won't change the representation of the wrapped object.
2019-09-23T04:19:30Z beach: Oh, since I mentioned Cluffer, the entire thing is defined as a bunch of CLOS protocols, allowing client code to customize how lines are represented, how they are opened, and how they are closed.
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2019-09-23T04:32:37Z beach: remexre: And by "primitive classes" I assume you mean "built-in classes".
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2019-09-23T04:37:31Z loke: beach: I don't know about his case specifically, but I think of “primitives” as being objects that fit in a single register. Such as fixnums, characters, etc.
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2019-09-23T04:38:05Z loke: I don't know if that's standard terminology though
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2019-09-23T04:44:19Z tomara: :help
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2019-09-23T04:44:57Z beach: tomara: What do you need help with.
2019-09-23T04:45:18Z beach: loke: That's not standard terminology, and I don't think that's what remexre means.
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2019-09-23T04:45:38Z remexre: Er, yeah, I meant standard classes
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2019-09-23T04:46:25Z loke: remexre: That would be any class which has STANDARD-CLASS (or a subclass of which) as its metaclass.
2019-09-23T04:46:31Z loke: I.e. used-defined classes too
2019-09-23T04:46:35Z loke: user
2019-09-23T04:46:52Z beach: loke: I think you missed a bit what remexre said.
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2019-09-23T04:47:40Z beach: loke: Both "classes" (meaning "standard classes") and "primitive classes" (probably meaning "built-in classes") were mentioned.
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2019-09-23T04:54:01Z beach: remexre: And, yes, I use the same trick in Cluffer.  I wrap the line contents in a standard object that can be an instance of either CLOSED-LINE or OPEN-LINE, and I use CHANGE-CLASS on that standard object so as to preserve the identity.  But I still need to replace the line contents "manually" when the line is opened or closed.
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2019-09-23T06:01:03Z beach: Question: When an attempt is made to transferred control to an exit point, it is possible that the exit point has been "abandoned",  But is it also possible that an attempt can be made to execute the cleanup form of an UNWIND-PROTECT form even though the exit point corresponding to the UNWIND-PROTECT form has been "abandoned"?  If so, I would like to see an example.
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2019-09-23T06:19:41Z flip214: beach: what do you mean by an "abandoned" exit point?
2019-09-23T06:20:05Z beach: I mean what the Common Lisp HyperSpec says.
2019-09-23T06:20:23Z beach: clhs 5.2
2019-09-23T06:20:23Z specbot: Transfer of Control to an Exit Point: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_b.htm
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2019-09-23T06:25:59Z flip214: beach: reading that chapter and thinking through a few (invalid) examples I believe that "abandoned" is meant as
2019-09-23T06:26:35Z flip214: "code flow won't get back to that point", so the corresponding U-P isn't relevant any more either.
2019-09-23T06:27:43Z lieven: it might be made unabandoned again. say you do a (go tag) in an unwind-protect
2019-09-23T06:28:37Z lieven: or for maximum fun, you have handed out #'(lambda () (go foo)) closures to downward functions. SERIES does that a lot and has brought forward bugs in implementations with it.
2019-09-23T06:29:12Z beach: flip214: No, it means that an attempt can be made to transfer to it, but that would be illegal.
2019-09-23T06:29:33Z beach: flip214: Consider a RETURN-FROM or GO inside an UNWIND-PROTECT.
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2019-09-23T06:30:42Z beach: flip214: So the question is whether such an attempt is possible when it comes to an UNWIND-PROTECT as opposed to a GO or a RETURN-FROM.
2019-09-23T06:31:07Z beach: lieven: Exactly.
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2019-09-23T06:32:13Z beach: So I know that i need a VALID-P slot in an exit point that corresponds to a BLOCK or a TAGBODY, and I am trying to determine whether I need one in an exit point that corresponds to an UNWIND-PROTECT.
2019-09-23T06:33:16Z beach: I know SBCL does not check the validity of all its exit points, but that's not a bug, because the Common Lisp HyperSpec says it's undefined behavior.
2019-09-23T06:33:36Z beach: Obviously, in SICL, I want to be way more strict.
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2019-09-23T06:34:02Z loke: What does it mean for an expit point to be VALID-P?
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2019-09-23T06:34:20Z beach: Not being "abandoned".
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2019-09-23T06:38:24Z beach: So the Common Lisp HyperSpec is not quite accurate.
2019-09-23T06:38:47Z beach: Because point 1 implies that the UNWIND-PROTECT exit points are abandoned.
2019-09-23T06:38:54Z beach: But then they are executed in point 2.
2019-09-23T06:40:23Z beach: So the question becomes: Is there a concept of an exit point corresponding to UNWIND-PROTECT being "abandoned", and if so, what does it imply and when is it done?
2019-09-23T06:41:33Z beach: I am thinking that it is abandoned once the cleanup forms have been executed (as opposed to initially as suggested by point 1), and I think it implies that the cleanup forms can not be executed a second time.
2019-09-23T06:42:54Z beach: And if I am right, my first question still stands, i.e. is it possible that such an attempt can be made, so that I have to represent this fact explicitly, and if so, what is the situation that can make such an attempt possible?
2019-09-23T06:44:05Z beach: I think the problem with the terminology is the definition of "exit point".   The glossary includes UNWIND-PROTECT, but 5.2 seems to exclude such points.
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2019-09-23T06:45:56Z beach: Here is what I think.  The cleanup forms of UNWIND-PROTECT are always executed starting with the most recently established ones.
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2019-09-23T06:48:04Z beach: If an UNWIND-PROTECT does a non-local control transfer to an exit point that has not yet been abandoned, then only less recent UNWIND-PROTECT exit points are present in the dynamic environment.  So they can't have already been executed.  Hence they are not abandoned.
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2019-09-23T06:54:45Z beach: So in conclusion, I don't think that UNWIND-PROTECT needs an explicit indication that it has been abandoned.
2019-09-23T06:55:28Z beach: I think what I will do is I will exclude UNWIND-PROTECT from the definition of "exit point" in my code.  That way, 5.2 makes more sense.
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2019-09-23T07:01:31Z beach: scymtym: Do you have any opinions about this discussion about exit points?
2019-09-23T07:03:00Z scymtym: beach: sorry, i just got here. i'm reading the logs now
2019-09-23T07:03:27Z beach: No rush, and only if you have time.
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2019-09-23T07:07:48Z beach: We really, really should create this document/website called "Common Lisp for language implementers".
2019-09-23T07:08:36Z scymtym: beach: was this discussion in #lisp? i only see CHANGE-CLASS and a clouseau regression so far
2019-09-23T07:08:55Z beach: Ouch.  Something wrong with the logs?
2019-09-23T07:09:01Z beach: Let me check...
2019-09-23T07:09:25Z scymtym: ah, no i just got to it, sorry
2019-09-23T07:09:58Z beach: Yes, it's in the Tymoon logs.
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2019-09-23T07:18:32Z beach: I so wish we had an "annotatable" Common Lisp HyperSpec the way we do with the CLIM specification.
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2019-09-23T07:21:11Z beach: I mean, it wouldn't be *the* Common Lisp HyperSpec™, but a similar one.
2019-09-23T07:21:51Z aeth: beach: what features would you want in Common Lisp HTML documentation in general?
2019-09-23T07:24:48Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Is the situation you're asking for anything like this example in a scan of CLTL? It sounds similar to me but I'm not sure: https://i.redd.it/wf8yklonnph31.jpg
2019-09-23T07:24:54Z beach: Not sure I understand the question.  I would like a document that explains the deep ideas of the standard where those are not clear from the existing document, and I would like a discussion about implementation strategies with pros and cons of each one, including the impact of every choice on the rest of the system.
2019-09-23T07:25:32Z scymtym: beach: reading 5.2, i had the same impression, that is UNWIND-PROTECT clauses don't seem to make sense as exit points in their own right. associating them with other exit points seems better. still thinking about the actual question
2019-09-23T07:26:40Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Yes, but that particular example I understand.
2019-09-23T07:27:02Z beach: no-defun-allowed: My question is specifically about exit points corresponding to UNWIND-PROTECT.
2019-09-23T07:27:30Z beach: scymtym: Thanks.  Good to know that I am not completely off.
2019-09-23T07:29:04Z beach: scymtym: But I don't know what you mean by "associating them with other exit points".
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2019-09-23T07:36:20Z scymtym: i mean control is transferred to an exit point, not an UNWIND-PROTECT clause. but when transfer is transferred, there is a sequence of associated UNWIND-PROTECT clauses (not statically associated with the program point that established the exit point, of course). that's my understanding of 5.2
2019-09-23T07:36:54Z beach: OK, I see what you mean.
2019-09-23T07:37:11Z beach: I need to put this computer on a charger.
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2019-09-23T07:46:19Z beach: Done.
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2019-09-23T07:47:53Z beach: Oh, but wait...
2019-09-23T07:48:03Z beach: We have to be careful.
2019-09-23T07:49:24Z beach: Let's say the dynamic environment contains B1 B2 U1 U2 where B1 and B2 are BLOCK points and U1 and U2 are UNWIND-PROTECT points. and U2 is the most recent.
2019-09-23T07:49:51Z beach: Now, let's say we execute a transfer to B2.
2019-09-23T07:50:02Z beach: So we follow the steps in 5.2.
2019-09-23T07:50:23Z beach: We start by step 1, but there is nothing to do.
2019-09-23T07:50:31Z beach: So then we start doing 2 and 3.
2019-09-23T07:50:47Z beach: As part of that, we execute U2.
2019-09-23T07:51:03Z beach: Now suppose U2 does a transfer to B1.
2019-09-23T07:51:09Z beach: That's fine.
2019-09-23T07:51:26Z beach: As part of that transfer, we execute the cleanup forms in U1.
2019-09-23T07:52:04Z beach: But when we are done, we have to make sure that we do not return to the initial transfer, because we would then execute the cleanup forms of U1 again.
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2019-09-23T07:52:44Z beach: So, it looks to me like there is at most one occurrence of 5.2 possible at any point in time.  They do not nest.
2019-09-23T07:53:11Z scymtym: i was thinking about the same example: (block outer (block inner (unwind-protect (unwind-protect (return-from inner) (print 1) (return-from outer)) (print 2))))
2019-09-23T07:53:36Z beach: Yeah.
2019-09-23T07:54:30Z beach: But we can't consider this situation illegal, so it makes no sense to mark U1 as abandoned and signal an error in the initial transfer.
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2019-09-23T07:57:11Z beach: Or else, we have different concept of "abandoned" for UNWIND-PROTECT, meaning "don't execute the cleanup forms again".
2019-09-23T07:57:17Z scymtym: i was thinking about modeling the exit point/uwp stack more explicitly and turning 5.2 into an algorithm (or more than one, if there are multiple possible interpretations) to get a more formal grip
2019-09-23T07:58:26Z beach: Good idea.  And that is basically what I am trying to do, because I am planning to implement this stuff for SICL.  But you are right, an more formal algorithm is probably a good start.
2019-09-23T08:00:39Z beach: The other slight quirk is that, as a result of RETURN-FROM, the exit point is abandoned and cannot be used again.  But as a result of GO, the exit point is still valid.
2019-09-23T08:04:21Z beach: More quirks: 5.2 says "Not that for go, the exit point is the form within the tagbody that is being executed at the time the go is performed;...."
2019-09-23T08:04:45Z beach: That description makes no sense to me what so ever.
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2019-09-23T08:05:50Z beach: So if I have (tagbody (f) (g) out) and (f) happens to do a (go out), then the exit point is (f)?
2019-09-23T08:05:51Z scymtym: yeah, shouldn't the exit point be something related to the target label?
2019-09-23T08:05:56Z beach: Exactly.
2019-09-23T08:06:31Z beach: And the glossary contradicts this description.
2019-09-23T08:07:46Z beach: We really need to clean up these descriptions in WSCL.
2019-09-23T08:07:47Z scymtym: one could also argue the statement containing the GO form, but the GO form itself is strange
2019-09-23T08:09:09Z beach: Well, (f) is the kind of the statement, not "containing" but "executing" the GO.
2019-09-23T08:09:30Z beach: And that is strange too.
2019-09-23T08:10:18Z beach: So 5.2 says that exit points are forms, but the glossary says that they are points in a control form.
2019-09-23T08:10:30Z beach: So that begs the question: what is a "point"
2019-09-23T08:11:05Z beach: And "point" is not defined in the glossary.
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2019-09-23T08:13:38Z beach: It seems to me that a "point" is either before a particular form is about to be evaluated, or immediately after a particular form has been evaluated.   Or something like that.
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2019-09-23T08:15:15Z scymtym: the static aspect sounds like program points. but the ability to abandon exit points requires some kind of attached dynamic state
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2019-09-23T08:19:06Z beach: Yes, but "program point" is also not defined.
2019-09-23T08:19:33Z beach: I think what is needed is a description of each program point of every special form.
2019-09-23T08:19:47Z beach: For example, take LAMBDA.
2019-09-23T08:21:06Z beach: It should be defined somewhere that the program point corresponding to the end of the evaluation of the last form in the body is one where special variable bindings established by the lambda list are undone before control returns to the caller.
2019-09-23T08:21:09Z beach: Stuff like that.
2019-09-23T08:23:08Z scymtym: time to look into formal semantics for common lisp? i would be surprised if that hadn't been attempted before, though
2019-09-23T08:23:24Z beach: Oh, I am not going to attempt that.
2019-09-23T08:23:39Z beach: But something a bit less formal than the Common Lisp HyperSpec would be good.
2019-09-23T08:24:23Z beach: We had to make some of it formal in Cleavir (especially in version 2), where we have the concept of a "compilation context" that says how values are to be used, and what the successor forms are.
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2019-09-23T08:24:53Z beach: We also represent the dynamic environment explicitly there as part of the context.
2019-09-23T08:26:38Z beach: This was Bike's idea, for which I am grateful.
2019-09-23T08:27:42Z beach: Hmm, maybe if I just document what Cleavir2 does, while avoiding direct references to its data structures, it would be a good start.
2019-09-23T08:28:12Z scymtym: yeah, i said the above half-jokingly. some kind of middle ground in terms of formality may be best since formal semantics for all of common lisp seems daunting
2019-09-23T08:28:34Z beach: Then we are in perfect agreement.
2019-09-23T08:31:05Z beach: *sigh*, I think I just signed up for yet another huge task.  But I can't put what I am doing on hold, so it shall have to wait, or I can do it in parallel with my current tasks.
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2019-09-23T09:08:53Z beach: So at least I convinced myself that the previous example with B1 B2 U1 U2 is not a problem.
2019-09-23T09:09:39Z beach: The "unwinder", i.e. the procedure that executes the steps of section 5.2 is basically executed as a result of a function call.
2019-09-23T09:10:14Z beach: The last step of the unwinder is to make a non-local jump to the exit point.
2019-09-23T09:11:13Z beach: If U2 executes the unwinder again, that second invocation will end with a non-local jump to B1, and the first invocation of the unwinder will be automatically eliminated.
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2019-09-23T10:29:56Z isBEKaml: How can I define optional arguments with default values in defuns? as an example: (defun factorial (n (acc 1)) ...) ?
2019-09-23T10:31:10Z White_Flame: (defun factorial (n &optional (acc 1)) ...)
2019-09-23T10:31:29Z White_Flame: &key makes keywords, with the same parmeter shape
2019-09-23T10:31:35Z isBEKaml: thanks, I was thinking &aux, although I should look that up now
2019-09-23T10:32:22Z White_Flame: acc = defaults NIL.  (acc 1) = defaults 1.  (acc 1 acc-p) = the acc-p boolean tells you if the caller actually included that parameter or not
2019-09-23T10:32:41Z White_Flame: the latter, because (factorial 3 1) is ambiguous as to whether the 1 was passed or defaulted
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2019-09-23T10:32:56Z White_Flame: from the callee's perspective
2019-09-23T10:32:59Z isBEKaml: White_Flame: yeah, I vaguely remembered seeing something like that in PG's ANSI CL book
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2019-09-23T10:33:34Z White_Flame: also, there's #clschool for basic questions, a lot of responses will get advanced here
2019-09-23T10:33:41Z isBEKaml: I'll go look up what &aux does
2019-09-23T10:33:52Z isBEKaml: White_Flame: I don't mind advanced answers, actually :-)
2019-09-23T10:34:01Z White_Flame: LET basically obsoleted &aux
2019-09-23T10:34:14Z White_Flame: it simply establishes new variables for the function context
2019-09-23T10:34:28Z isBEKaml: thanks, I have worked around my failing memory with labels in that factorial function now
2019-09-23T10:34:31Z White_Flame: the caller can't interact with them, iirc
2019-09-23T10:35:55Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (defun (a b) (declare (ignore a)) (+ b 2))
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2019-09-23T10:44:12Z no-defun-allowed: What function are you defining?
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2019-09-23T10:59:18Z LdBeth: ∇a b   b+2 ∇
2019-09-23T11:00:13Z no-defun-allowed: #apl is that way --->
2019-09-23T11:01:00Z ecraven: ⍝ is what I like best
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2019-09-23T12:03:40Z beach: To me, it is looking more and more like the authors of the standard had some very concrete implementation of the dynamic environment in mind, and that they tried to avoid such a concrete description in the standard, in favor of some more abstract language.  The net result is a loss of precision, and also some contradicting terminology.
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2019-09-23T12:05:00Z beach: I am currently trying to recover that concrete description.  And then I will try to find a better way of turning it abstract so that no precision is lost.  I am not sure that I will be able to do that though.
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2019-09-23T12:15:29Z beach: It is interesting how one can think that one knows a language pretty well, but then when one tries to create an implementation of it, one discovers several holes in one's knowledge about it.  And some holes in the specification of it as well.
2019-09-23T12:20:00Z varjag: cl-async is so nice but it has to grovel..
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2019-09-23T12:37:15Z ralt: a simple single-threaded event loop using only lisp and some small cffi wrappers is not too hard to do
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2019-09-23T12:39:10Z beach: ralt: For what purpose?
2019-09-23T12:39:21Z ralt: replacing cl-async
2019-09-23T12:39:25Z beach: Ah.
2019-09-23T12:40:03Z ralt: the major thing you need to have cffi wrappers for is epoll_* stuff
2019-09-23T12:40:32Z ralt: which, conveniently... https://github.com/cffi-posix/cffi-epoll
2019-09-23T12:40:57Z ralt: although it's grovelling
2019-09-23T12:41:06Z varjag: yup
2019-09-23T12:41:13Z ralt: (note that it's super necessary...)
2019-09-23T12:41:37Z ralt: no grovel: https://gitlab.com/ralt/laap/blob/master/core/cffi.lisp
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2019-09-23T12:49:29Z varjag: ralt: interesting project
2019-09-23T12:50:02Z varjag quickloads
2019-09-23T12:50:40Z ralt: I'm not sure it's on quicklisp
2019-09-23T12:50:50Z ralt: use at your own risk
2019-09-23T12:51:10Z varjag: it is
2019-09-23T12:51:27Z varjag: (risk is my middle name)
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2019-09-23T13:46:25Z Xach: i used epoll directly with sb-alien for a project and it was handy.
2019-09-23T13:46:42Z Xach: i used it to do async dns and async http to have bounded response times for a web app.
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2019-09-23T13:51:41Z ralt: varjag: let me know if it still works
2019-09-23T13:52:17Z ralt: Xach: yes, that's my point, a custom single threaded one is fairly straightforward once you have epoll
2019-09-23T13:52:48Z Xach: ralt: and http/dns protocol processors :)
2019-09-23T13:53:05Z ralt: note that DNS is a rabbit hole because linux is, well... conventional?
2019-09-23T13:53:19Z ralt: like all this stuff with /etc/hosts etc
2019-09-23T13:53:45Z Xach: i cheated and didn't use the system resolver, just parsed resolv.conf and did direct networking myself. which does not work in all situations but did for me.
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2019-09-23T13:54:48Z ralt: fair enough
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2019-09-23T13:57:56Z varjag: ralt: it attempts to on ccl/arm32 at least
2019-09-23T13:58:18Z ralt: esoteric
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2019-09-23T14:00:03Z varjag: ralt: that's why i didn't feel like groveling
2019-09-23T14:03:41Z thijso: what exactly is grovelling?
2019-09-23T14:04:20Z dlowe: parsing a C file to extract its contents for use in a foreign interface
2019-09-23T14:05:19Z thijso: Ah, ok, thanks, dlowe
2019-09-23T14:05:56Z dlowe: I have no idea how this got called grovelling - maybe it's basically a form of giving up and begging other languages to do things
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2019-09-23T14:07:38Z dlowe: it's never a very clean process
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2019-09-23T16:20:45Z beach: Here is another question:  Suppose we have a dynamic environment with entries C1 B C2 U, where C1 and C2 are CATCH entries with the same tag (say C), B is a BLOCK entry and U is an UNWIND-PROTECT entry.  C1 is the oldest and U is the most recent.  Now we do a RETURN-FROM B.  So C2 is "abandoned".  Then we run the cleanup forms in U.  Suppose that U does a (THROW C).  Is this operation invalid because C2 has been "abandoned", or is C1
2019-09-23T16:20:45Z beach: going to be a valid target for the THROW?
2019-09-23T16:21:53Z beach: I'll let you come up with some Common Lisp code that does that.  It is not hard.
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2019-09-23T16:25:34Z beach: (catch 'c (block b (catch 'c (unwind-protect (return-from b) (throw 'c (values)))))) or something like that.
2019-09-23T16:25:55Z Bike: that's kind of horrible. i... think it would throw to C1, though.
2019-09-23T16:26:08Z beach: Oh, it is definitely horrible.
2019-09-23T16:27:26Z Bike: the clhs page for throw says it goes to "the most recent outstanding catch". I think interpreting "outstanding" to mean "not abandoned" is reasonable, and there's nothing to force the abandonment of C1, which is not an intervening exit point
2019-09-23T16:28:12Z Bike: also "the cleanup clauses of an unwind-protect see the same dynamic bindings of variables and catch tags as were visible when the unwind-protect was entered" in 5.2.
2019-09-23T16:28:34Z Bike: ...well, i guess that kind of contradicts the intervening points invalidated thing, doesn't it
2019-09-23T16:29:10Z beach: I am wondering whether this is the exact example shown in the THROW dictionary entry.
2019-09-23T16:29:17Z beach: I need to study it a bit more.
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2019-09-23T16:29:46Z Bike: which one?
2019-09-23T16:30:14Z beach: Nah.  The (catch 'foo ...) one
2019-09-23T16:30:51Z Bike: No in that case the initial throw is to the same catch that the second throw ends up in - invalidation isn't relevant. i think.
2019-09-23T16:31:11Z Bike: the outer catch isn't hit at all
2019-09-23T16:31:38Z beach: Yeah.
2019-09-23T16:31:41Z beach: Not the same.
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2019-09-23T16:34:08Z Bike: i still don't really get the point of the "intervening exit points are invalidated" thing. the committee issue makes it seem like the point was to make it easier for implementations but that doesn't seem to actually be true
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2019-09-23T16:48:39Z beach: Bike: I think that it will be harder for some implementations with their chosen strategy.  But then, they let the implementation choose by making it undefined behavior.
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2019-09-23T17:09:50Z proto: Hello
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2019-09-23T17:11:26Z proto: I can't figure out what makes functional programming better or even worth to use, rather than imperative programming. Functional programming restricts and establishes some guarantees, but this could easily be established with imperative programming languages as well.
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2019-09-23T17:12:00Z dlowe: that's great but common lisp isn't a functional programming language
2019-09-23T17:12:27Z dlowe: maybe you meant to go to #haskell?
2019-09-23T17:12:28Z proto: dlowe: oh?
2019-09-23T17:13:05Z dlowe: it's functional in that functions are first class objects, but it has iteration and global variables and stuff
2019-09-23T17:13:32Z dlowe: and, of course, you can use a functional paradigm if you want
2019-09-23T17:14:45Z edgar-rft: ...and you can write imperative Common Lisp code, too
2019-09-23T17:14:48Z proto: but functional paradigm can be applied in C as well
2019-09-23T17:15:09Z proto: so why all the hassle?
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2019-09-23T17:16:20Z dlowe: it's a way to manage complexity and cognitive load
2019-09-23T17:16:22Z edgar-rft: because in Common Lisp you can *combine* imperative, functional, OOP. whatever style in *one* program
2019-09-23T17:16:34Z dlowe: pure functions are also super easy to write tests for
2019-09-23T17:16:43Z proto: in C, you cannot write pure functions?
2019-09-23T17:16:56Z shka_: you can, in theory
2019-09-23T17:17:05Z proto: I think you can in practice as well
2019-09-23T17:17:21Z dlowe: You can, but the fact that you might screw it up means that your cognitive load is not reduced so much
2019-09-23T17:17:29Z shka_: but oh my god, writing large systems this way is impractical and i don't think i know anyone that does that
2019-09-23T17:17:38Z proto: so how difficult can it be? You just don't mutate stuff
2019-09-23T17:17:57Z dlowe: can you guarantee that every function you call *also* doesn't mutate stuff?
2019-09-23T17:18:04Z proto: of course
2019-09-23T17:18:13Z shka_: proto: functional programming without GC as bare minimum is just not practical
2019-09-23T17:18:22Z dlowe: no, you can't in fact guarantee that
2019-09-23T17:18:23Z shka_: closures are a next step required
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2019-09-23T17:18:55Z shka_: without those two things i would not even consider writing in functional style
2019-09-23T17:18:57Z proto: shka_: closures are just structs with methods?
2019-09-23T17:19:37Z shka_: proto: try passing void* as explicit closure every time and you will quickly loose your mind
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2019-09-23T17:20:23Z shka_: also, you can't just (lambda (x) (+ x y)), you will have to define function elsewhere, and then the state, and then initialize the state…
2019-09-23T17:20:25Z shka_: not fun
2019-09-23T17:20:49Z shka_: so yeah, in theory you can say that it is possible to write functional C
2019-09-23T17:20:57Z shka_: in practice, nobody does that
2019-09-23T17:21:35Z shka_: because it generates more hassle to manage then abstracts away
2019-09-23T17:21:53Z proto: shka_: is closures so important?
2019-09-23T17:21:59Z proto: are*
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2019-09-23T17:22:14Z shka_: yeah, i would say so
2019-09-23T17:22:51Z proto: shka_: give me the simplest example of a closure, and why they are far superior to a simple struct with methods.
2019-09-23T17:23:31Z shka_: (let ((y 5)) (lambda (x) (+ x y)) as a simplest
2019-09-23T17:24:15Z shka_: as why superior?
2019-09-23T17:24:19Z shka_: i want banana
2019-09-23T17:24:25Z shka_: not a gorilla holding a banana
2019-09-23T17:24:35Z proto: but gorilla is far superior
2019-09-23T17:24:38Z proto: haha
2019-09-23T17:24:44Z dlowe: proto seems to be just wanting an irc fight
2019-09-23T17:24:52Z dlowe: old-school trolling
2019-09-23T17:24:59Z shka_: oh i have a plenty fight in me!
2019-09-23T17:25:03Z shka_: come at me bro
2019-09-23T17:25:13Z Bike: this channel isn't for fights
2019-09-23T17:25:19Z shka_: just kidding, going back to wash my dishes
2019-09-23T17:26:24Z shka_: proto: thing is that your way of thinking is just example of turing tarpit
2019-09-23T17:26:27Z proto: No. I don't that at all. I am just applying doubt to obtain certainty and understanding.
2019-09-23T17:26:37Z shka_: everything is possible, nothing is easy
2019-09-23T17:26:53Z shka_: ok, afk
2019-09-23T17:26:54Z proto: I do not intend to troll*
2019-09-23T17:27:22Z dlowe: it's okay, "trolling" used to mean something less problematic.
2019-09-23T17:29:22Z proto: imho, conciseness is the pro
2019-09-23T17:29:35Z proto: and abstraction
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2019-09-23T19:23:40Z Xach: concision is equivalent to powerfulness
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2019-09-23T20:23:34Z jmercouris: the advantage of a closure? honestly, I find it really rarely comes up in my workflows
2019-09-23T20:23:51Z jmercouris: that could just be a product of how I think though, maybe others find themselves using them much more frequently
2019-09-23T20:24:15Z jmercouris: when I say "rarely", I mean non-trivial usages of them
2019-09-23T20:25:04Z jmercouris: there are those contrived usages that I see occassionally to illustrate how clever they are, but I don't find them applicable oft
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2019-09-23T20:38:29Z Xach: cl-ppcre uses closures in a nice way to compile its regular expression matchers without using cl:compile.
2019-09-23T20:41:09Z LdBeth: Ahead of time compilation
2019-09-23T20:42:09Z LdBeth: Actually there’s no point avoid call compiler at run time
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2019-09-23T20:44:00Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: (defun start () (let ((app (make-app))) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (loop (poke-a-bear app)))) (run-app app)) ; comes to mind
2019-09-23T20:44:43Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: yeah, but that isn't like a super clever usage of a closure or anything
2019-09-23T20:44:49Z jmercouris: it's straightforward and very useful
2019-09-23T20:45:10Z jmercouris: I'm talking about people that would use it to made a function like "counter" or something that captures a value to know how many times it has been invoked
2019-09-23T20:45:14Z jackdaniel: I thought you've asked about usual workflow usages
2019-09-23T20:45:20Z jmercouris: still not terribly complex, but I've never found myself doing it
2019-09-23T20:45:44Z LdBeth: A good thing of closure is avoid putting things to global while sharing variables
2019-09-23T20:46:01Z Krystof: Xach: wow, that phrase brings back memories
2019-09-23T20:46:20Z jmercouris: Xach: yeah, but does it generate NFAs?
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2019-09-23T20:47:15Z jmercouris: just to be clear, I'm making a joke here, I'm sure cl-ppcre makes a good usage of closures
2019-09-23T20:47:38Z jmercouris: we actually use them in Next quite a bit, specifically for candidate completion, we often build closures that capture some state and complete upon it in the minibuffer
2019-09-23T20:47:59Z jmercouris: to avoid continuosly polling whatever state we are completing against with every keypress
2019-09-23T20:48:16Z jmercouris: that makes the candidates stale of course, but the program much more responsive
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2019-09-23T20:51:00Z aeth: A closure is the only way to get true encapsulation in CL afaik... but you rarely need that.
2019-09-23T20:51:36Z jmercouris: closure oriented programming ;)
2019-09-23T20:52:00Z jmercouris: I guess if all of your objects were encapsulated in closures or something, you could have true OO in CL
2019-09-23T20:52:35Z aeth: I tend to prefer to have an explicit state argument to a function passed in as a higher order function over making a closure. I can see why you'd want to do it the other way because it makes the API cleaner, but it also makes it, well, less transparent each step.
2019-09-23T20:52:36Z jackdaniel: you can't implement OO with closures but that will be probably inefficient
2019-09-23T20:52:49Z jackdaniel: that said, doesn't CL have "true OO" - whatever "true" means
2019-09-23T20:53:01Z aeth: jackdaniel: CL isn't C++, therefore it isn't true OO
2019-09-23T20:53:07Z jmercouris: there are some principles of "true" OO, and yes, CL doesn't have them
2019-09-23T20:53:19Z jackdaniel: could you elaborate on these "principles"?
2019-09-23T20:53:41Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming#Encapsulation
2019-09-23T20:53:56Z aeth: An OOP definition is basically "choose 4 of these 15 things from the list and turn it into your OOP definition"
2019-09-23T20:53:56Z jmercouris: "programming concept that binds together the data and functions that manipulate the data, and that keeps both safe from outside interference and misuse"
2019-09-23T20:54:17Z jmercouris: it's very clear that CL doesn't make this guarantee, like for example private in java, which does
2019-09-23T20:54:32Z aeth: You can encapsulate slots in CL in two ways... one, you can make the slot name a symbol like %foo and not export the symbol... if you trust your users
2019-09-23T20:54:35Z jmercouris: or do I mean protected?
2019-09-23T20:54:38Z jmercouris: I get confused all the time
2019-09-23T20:54:41Z aeth: two, you can gensym the slot name, if you don't trust your users
2019-09-23T20:54:50Z aeth: So I guess there's more than just closures
2019-09-23T20:55:00Z jmercouris: aeth: but can you not query an object for all of its slots
2019-09-23T20:55:05Z jmercouris: and then use slot-value to get the values?
2019-09-23T20:55:22Z aeth: jmercouris: MOP isn't standard, and even if that's the case, you can probably override the MOP in your metaclass to protect them!
2019-09-23T20:55:41Z jmercouris: well... fair enough :D
2019-09-23T20:55:50Z jmercouris: this is too far out my depth now
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2019-09-23T20:56:03Z aeth: At that point I'd consider it similar to using the debugger, though!
2019-09-23T20:56:24Z jmercouris: introspection is a lot like using the debugger
2019-09-23T20:56:29Z jackdaniel: I read it: so you can use functions to manipulate data without accessing it, not that you enforce lack of such access. that said I think that there was a very good post by Erik Naggum explaining why you are wrong with this "trueness"
2019-09-23T20:56:29Z aeth: (On the other hand, closure encapsulation might be safe from the debugger if (debug 3) isn't the current optimization level, because the private variables might be optimized away.)
2019-09-23T20:56:32Z jmercouris: I've always felt like introspection magic is dangeorus
2019-09-23T20:56:39Z jmercouris: s/dangeorus/dangerous
2019-09-23T20:57:02Z jackdaniel: either way I don't see how CL does not provide encapsulation with accessors
2019-09-23T20:57:19Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: well, there is no official governing authority on what is OO and what is not, I'm sure there is quite some debate
2019-09-23T20:57:38Z aeth: I'd personally consider defclass encapsulation using a slot definition like (%foo :accessor foo :initform 42) to be an acceptable encapsulation... at least for the user. The MOP and a few other things make things too dynamic for the compiler or interpreter
2019-09-23T20:57:39Z jmercouris: it doesn't provide encapsulation because you can always violate the encapsulation
2019-09-23T20:58:09Z jmercouris: "Encapsulation prevents external code ..."
2019-09-23T20:58:33Z jmercouris: it doesn't say "encourages", it says "prevents"
2019-09-23T20:58:39Z aeth: jmercouris: A definition that excludes Python, an extremely OOP language, is imo too strict. I think in Python you just make things private via names, like __foo__ or something
2019-09-23T20:58:48Z aeth: oh, just __foo
2019-09-23T20:58:59Z jmercouris: classes and OO in Python feel like a total afterthought
2019-09-23T20:59:02Z aeth: Even Wikipedia uses that Python example in its article
2019-09-23T20:59:12Z jackdaniel: also, it seems that the person writing this wiki entry indeed thinks that OO = C++
2019-09-23T20:59:24Z jmercouris: I would say the most OO'ish language I know is Java
2019-09-23T20:59:41Z jmercouris: however the lack of multiple inheritance, and having to use protocols instead, a bit of a bummer
2019-09-23T20:59:51Z aeth: Python is one of the most OOP languages out there.
2019-09-23T20:59:52Z jmercouris: s/protocols/interfaces to use the java terminology
2019-09-23T21:00:11Z jmercouris: I don't konw, Python is most probably a procedural lang that had OO bolted on
2019-09-23T21:00:13Z aeth: Java has things that violate its own OOP purism like having a separate 'int' type from 'Integer'
2019-09-23T21:00:30Z jmercouris: Yeah, primitive types are a crime in Java, however, performance...
2019-09-23T21:00:32Z aeth: You also don't have to force everything to live with a class to use OOP heavily, as both Python and C++ show
2019-09-23T21:00:48Z jmercouris: creating objects in Java is very expensive
2019-09-23T21:00:57Z jmercouris: at least in the current JVM implementations
2019-09-23T21:00:57Z aeth: jmercouris: Common Lisp has integer without harming performance, and is sometimes better than Java here
2019-09-23T21:01:13Z jmercouris: yeah I think object creation has a much lower cost in CL
2019-09-23T21:01:23Z jmercouris: method calling on the other hand, not so
2019-09-23T21:01:51Z aeth: well, fixnum is a subclass of integer, and can be handled as a special case without really existing as an "object" instance except when you do things like (class-of 42)
2019-09-23T21:02:01Z aeth: (or define methods)
2019-09-23T21:02:15Z aeth: So CL did find a way to have integers without an int vs. Integer divide
2019-09-23T21:02:23Z jackdaniel: there it is: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3243735416407529@naggum.no.html
2019-09-23T21:02:25Z jackdaniel: not so long
2019-09-23T21:02:31Z jmercouris: ok, one sec
2019-09-23T21:03:31Z aeth: jmercouris: Method calling in CL is expensive because CL is (mostly) dynamically typed, so it can't optimize the call at compilation time, except perhaps if you add type declarations (although that's rare enough that I doubt that's optimized in most cases in most implementations)
2019-09-23T21:03:36Z jackdaniel: description on the wiki page of OO reminds me people confusing weak and dynamic typing
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2019-09-23T21:04:18Z jmercouris: you could edit it if you really disagree, however you'll have to provide literature...
2019-09-23T21:04:27Z jmercouris: for what it's worth, my textbooks are inline with the Wiki description
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2019-09-23T21:05:50Z jmercouris: ah, message passing, good times in Objective-C
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2019-09-23T21:06:00Z jackdaniel: I could but I won't ;) all I'm saying is that I'd be careful with definite claims about "true" <whatever>
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2019-09-23T21:06:59Z jmercouris: what's the point of defgeneric?
2019-09-23T21:07:06Z jmercouris: since if you don't use it, they are implicitly created anyways
2019-09-23T21:08:11Z jackdaniel: for one you may create a generic function with different metaclass
2019-09-23T21:08:51Z jmercouris: can you please provide a scenario in which one would wish to do that?
2019-09-23T21:09:12Z aeth: An object oriented programming language is only object oriented if and only if it has a metaobject protocol[1], thus making Common Lisp and Perl rare examples of object oriented programming languages. [1] source: my blog
2019-09-23T21:09:15Z aeth: time to edit Wikipedia...
2019-09-23T21:09:30Z jmercouris: aeth: lol
2019-09-23T21:09:40Z jackdaniel: i.e when I want to encapsulate (ha ha) some state in a function object
2019-09-23T21:10:03Z jmercouris: ah, :)
2019-09-23T21:10:17Z jmercouris: I'm going to sleep now, interesting conversation, goodnight
2019-09-23T21:10:28Z jmercouris: also I read the article, doesn't mention encapsulation :P
2019-09-23T21:10:45Z jmercouris: it is however a different definition of OO and says "object system" at the end
2019-09-23T21:10:54Z jmercouris: so there is that
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2019-09-23T21:11:35Z jackdaniel: I'm cure I've said (paraphrasing): you are wrong about that encapsulation defines trueness
2019-09-23T21:11:45Z jackdaniel: s/cure/sure/
2019-09-23T21:12:09Z jackdaniel: not that this mail treats about encapsulation
2019-09-23T21:12:46Z aeth: Anyway, encapsulation depends on the language local conventions if there isn't a "private" keyword or similar. In Python, it is good enough to do __foo for a private member. In CL, a private slot name is just %foo if %foo is not exported in the package. Pretty simple and straightforward.
2019-09-23T21:12:48Z jackdaniel: good night
2019-09-23T21:12:56Z aeth: I don't think that that is particularly controversial, although a C++ or Java programmer might dispute it
2019-09-23T21:13:25Z jackdaniel: aeth: one could even claim, that slot names are implementation details and using slot-value is in bad taste
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2019-09-23T21:14:03Z jackdaniel: (not to mention, such name may not be exported from a package)
2019-09-23T21:14:04Z aeth: jackdaniel: I do, but I make that claim by making all of my slot names %foo style. Anything that isn't is an old-style defclass of mine and essentially a bug.
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2019-09-23T21:14:51Z jackdaniel: sure, %foo makes sense. also adding accessors with name %whatever to bypass "official" protocols with all auxiliary methods
2019-09-23T21:16:12Z aeth: jackdaniel: I sometimes do things like (%foo :accessor %foo :reader foo :initform 42) where %foo is the "internal" reader/writer (easier to have two readers than having a writer with a different name than the reader)
2019-09-23T21:16:27Z aeth: I find that that's better than even using slot-value at all internally
2019-09-23T21:16:39Z jackdaniel: I tend to agree
2019-09-23T21:16:50Z jackdaniel: I'm going to bed too, good night \o
2019-09-23T21:16:56Z aeth: good night
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2019-09-23T22:41:25Z asarch: Any text conversor from UTF-8 to ISO-8859-1?
2019-09-23T22:41:31Z asarch: *converter :-P
2019-09-23T22:42:18Z aeth: it looks like babel supports it
2019-09-23T22:42:24Z aeth: https://github.com/cl-babel/babel/blob/546fa82ecce6f325a0d9dfc7da40652ac38662d5/src/enc-iso-8859.lisp
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2019-09-24T00:28:01Z remexre: Is there a way w/ CFFI to reload a shared library?
2019-09-24T00:28:32Z remexre: (I'm developing a native-code library alongside a Lisp application, and don't wanna have to restart the REPL every change)
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2019-09-24T00:32:26Z Bike: if you call load-foreign-library again it will reload, says the manual
2019-09-24T00:33:20Z remexre: ah, didn't see that
2019-09-24T00:33:22Z remexre: thx
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2019-09-24T03:50:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-24T06:30:10Z shrdlu68: Good morning #lisp
2019-09-24T06:30:21Z shrdlu68: beach: What inspired the name "metamodular"?
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2019-09-24T06:37:50Z ralt: So, hm. I've been thinking about how lisp is all great to have programs running forever, with the image based things, and the live update facilities. I really like that. But servers die. Things need reboots. So it's just not a viable model these days.
2019-09-24T06:38:58Z ralt: So I've been thinking: is there a way to have programs that can run forever? Say, something that "distributes" the process on several machines, so that you _can_ have an application running "forever".
2019-09-24T06:39:05Z aeth: yes
2019-09-24T06:39:10Z aeth: I was about to propose that
2019-09-24T06:39:11Z ralt: I know it's very much like erlang.
2019-09-24T06:39:12Z shrdlu68: What do you mean "these days"?
2019-09-24T06:39:23Z jackdaniel: ralt: there is lparallel
2019-09-24T06:39:25Z aeth: Some would say to come up with a way to serialize it to the disk periodically, but that's no fun, just to be able to restore from a snapshot.
2019-09-24T06:39:47Z ralt: jackdaniel: lparallel supports running across machines?
2019-09-24T06:39:53Z aeth: Having 10 redundant systems so that you can rebuild when some go down, now that's more with the spirit of things
2019-09-24T06:40:02Z jackdaniel: ralt: yes, it is Common Lisp library for distributed computing
2019-09-24T06:40:16Z aeth: ralt: https://lparallel.org/2013/06/15/introducing-lfarm/
2019-09-24T06:40:20Z ralt: That said, I know one of the hard problems in my use case is earmuffs variables. I'm just not sure how to solve that.
2019-09-24T06:40:23Z no-defun-allowed: Well, lfarm does across machines, but it's a worker-manager model and not really distributed.
2019-09-24T06:40:45Z aeth: lfarm even has pmap-reduce
2019-09-24T06:40:56Z jackdaniel: ralt: having persistent memory for program (where ram is only a small cache to it) is something what beach proposed years ago
2019-09-24T06:41:04Z jackdaniel: ah, right, lfarm, sorry
2019-09-24T06:41:06Z jackdaniel: I've meant it
2019-09-24T06:41:15Z ralt: Like, if your program is really logically a single entity, then things like `(setf *foo* "bar")` can work, and you don't even need a database, ever
2019-09-24T06:42:58Z jackdaniel: no-defun-allowed: it takes only a little imagination to think about workers as both managers and workers, and data distributed is the actual application state
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2019-09-24T06:43:14Z no-defun-allowed: jackdaniel: sorry, not the imaginative type
2019-09-24T06:43:48Z jackdaniel: databases are highly optimized for things for which lisp image is not meant for (i.e querying for a particular kind of data)
2019-09-24T06:43:58Z ralt: I also don't mean it should be running across several machines, it's still a single entity that runs single-threaded (and if you make threads, who knows where they run), but somehow it can work across machines.
2019-09-24T06:44:00Z aeth: ralt: "you don't even need a database, ever" is how you get MUMPS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS
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2019-09-24T06:44:25Z aeth: (okay, they wouldn't phrase it like that, but it has a built-in pre-SQL no-SQL)
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2019-09-24T06:44:42Z ralt: A bit like NUMA
2019-09-24T06:45:10Z ralt: aeth: uh, MUMPS sounds fun
2019-09-24T06:45:41Z ralt: Ah, and that's exactly what I'd use manardb for ;)
2019-09-24T06:46:39Z ralt: Maybe it should be a kernel feature... like NUMA, instead of memory being the clustered thing, it's other kernels
2019-09-24T06:47:02Z ralt: Naturally the applications can then follow the normal model of being normal applications
2019-09-24T06:48:07Z ralt: jackdaniel: most of the databases use cases are solved with hash tables, though (e.g. select by id)
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2019-09-24T06:48:23Z ralt: Well, s/most/a lot of/
2019-09-24T06:49:12Z ralt: Ok, so the ecosystem is mostly lfarm as I understand it?
2019-09-24T06:49:29Z jackdaniel: I'd start with lfarm, yes
2019-09-24T06:49:37Z ralt: It's not magic enough :P
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2019-09-24T06:51:14Z ralt: Maybe I'm just too demanding
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2019-09-24T06:53:22Z beach: shrdlu68: At the time, soft sounds like M were fashionable.
2019-09-24T06:53:25Z White_Flame: there have been an OO language or two like that, with transparent persistence and distribution.  They're pretty slow, though, and can have nonobvious interactions
2019-09-24T06:53:48Z White_Flame: I've been searching, but can't find direct references
2019-09-24T06:54:23Z ralt: Maybe you mean erlang?
2019-09-24T06:54:25Z beach: ralt: Servers that die are buggy.
2019-09-24T06:54:37Z White_Flame: ralt: no, erlang is not transparently persistent
2019-09-24T06:54:44Z White_Flame: nor transparently distributed
2019-09-24T06:54:49Z ralt: beach: not sure what your point is
2019-09-24T06:55:39Z ralt: That's also an arguable point of view, because kernels need to be upgraded, hardware rots, etc etc. So, sure, if you want, servers that die are buggy, but bugs are part of life :)
2019-09-24T06:55:56Z ralt: Unless you mean things like mainframe?
2019-09-24T06:56:36Z ralt: White_Flame: yes, the transparently persistence is clearly lacking
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2019-09-24T06:57:30Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe a UPS is a simpler solution to a small section of your problems.
2019-09-24T06:58:52Z no-defun-allowed: And if things crash and burn pretty hard, I don't see how having multiple servers running the same crashing and burning program is going to help the situation.
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2019-09-24T07:01:28Z ralt: have you ever upgraded a kernel?
2019-09-24T07:01:31Z beach: ralt: It is not important.  I don't have a solution for the case when the hardware breaks.  But we shouldn't have to restart our computers when the operating system needs to be updated.
2019-09-24T07:01:34Z aeth: ralt: re "so the ecosystem is mostly lfarm" I'm not sure there's a big demand for this at all so... maybe?
2019-09-24T07:02:20Z ralt: beach: ah, I see, you're advocating for a lisp-like kernel with live upgradeable objects
2019-09-24T07:02:24Z jackdaniel: ralt: even linux kernel experiments with the hotswap kernel update and persistency
2019-09-24T07:02:38Z ralt: aeth: I don't know
2019-09-24T07:02:48Z beach: ralt: Sort of.  Except I don't want a "kernel" at all.
2019-09-24T07:02:52Z ralt: jackdaniel: that's ksplice and friends, and it's, uh, fragile?
2019-09-24T07:03:09Z ralt: It's only recommended for small upgrades
2019-09-24T07:03:17Z jackdaniel: new features tend to be fragile, yes
2019-09-24T07:03:22Z White_Flame: ralt: linux is trying to include what other OSes have had years ago, in that regard
2019-09-24T07:03:37Z ralt: if by new you mean ">10 years"...
2019-09-24T07:03:40Z jackdaniel: all I'm saying is that bringing: kernel update requires restart is a hoax argument
2019-09-24T07:03:57Z ralt: kernel is just part of the problem though
2019-09-24T07:04:02Z ralt: hardware and all that fun
2019-09-24T07:04:17Z ralt: idk. day dreaming I guess.
2019-09-24T07:04:45Z aeth: ralt: port Common Lisp to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandem_Computers
2019-09-24T07:04:48Z jackdaniel: if you have operating center distributing all over the world with a single application, magnetic bomb can take it down by turning off electricity
2019-09-24T07:05:03Z jackdaniel: distributed ,)
2019-09-24T07:05:10Z ralt: I just really like the concept of an application running forever
2019-09-24T07:05:18Z ralt: and all the simplicity that comes with it
2019-09-24T07:05:32Z aeth: oh, ouch, that line of products was essentially killed by Itanium, if that Wikipedia article is accurate
2019-09-24T07:05:41Z aeth: s/by/by choosing/
2019-09-24T07:06:11Z aeth: essentially nothing of note there after migrating to x86 from Itanium
2019-09-24T07:07:11Z aeth: ralt: In general, it's fault-tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fault-tolerant_computer_system
2019-09-24T07:07:45Z aeth: Essentially, every piece of hardware has to be redundant and hot-swappable.
2019-09-24T07:09:08Z aeth: (And then you probably still have to run the program on multiple copies of those computers very far away from each other.)
2019-09-24T07:09:40Z thijso: "and all the simplicity that comes with it"... I don't think that word means what you think it means, ralt
2019-09-24T07:09:57Z aeth: ralt: And if you want to know why (almost) no one uses fault tolerant systems, the answer is, of course, money!
2019-09-24T07:10:05Z White_Flame: simplicity of use != simplicity of implementation
2019-09-24T07:10:10Z guaqua: it's to date always proved to be prohibitively expensive to have programs running forever (whatever your definition of a program is, but probably something like a memory space or object graph). applications and systems consisting of smaller redundant subsystems do work, however
2019-09-24T07:10:35Z thijso: White_Flame: well, that, and a host of other orthonogal 'simplicities'
2019-09-24T07:10:38Z guaqua: you can make those run virtually forever
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2019-09-24T07:11:53Z aeth: guaqua: Yes, you need redundant software and redundant hardware. So I'm guessing if something takes p computing power, then it probably is, idk, maybe consuming 5p or 10p in the end...
2019-09-24T07:12:03Z aeth: Not to mention being harder to program.
2019-09-24T07:12:28Z White_Flame: every operation has a chance to fail
2019-09-24T07:12:44Z White_Flame: and might have issued external effects during that failure or not
2019-09-24T07:12:55Z aeth: White_Flame: Yes, after all of this, there's always a chance that it doesn't work anyway.
2019-09-24T07:13:19Z White_Flame: I simply mean that in terms of creating the error handling and robustness code, there's a massive onslaught of failure conditions to consider
2019-09-24T07:13:37Z guaqua: luckily not every line of business is as critical to odd failure. and in my experience many of the things tend to fail somewhat rarely. but this is just one system at one company with one quality culture
2019-09-24T07:13:41Z White_Flame: many of which do not have an obvious cleanup, mitigation, or retry
2019-09-24T07:14:12Z guaqua: theoretical and practical considerations are a bit different :)
2019-09-24T07:15:11Z guaqua: for some things you need to do the painful engineering to handle all errors, make it 100% robust. for some others a simple manual retry triggered by hand the next morning might be enough
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2019-09-24T07:15:49Z aeth: "retry... the next morning" is the best kind of engineering
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2019-09-24T07:24:33Z shrdlu68: ralt: Don't the "container orchestration" tools meet your need for high availability?
2019-09-24T07:25:16Z ralt: they don't usually handle data all that well
2019-09-24T07:26:21Z ralt: Maybe I'm just looking at the wrong problem, i.e. trying to reconcile "let's use lisp live upgrade facilities" and "real world cloud servers die all the time"
2019-09-24T07:26:40Z shrdlu68: I don't understand. You mean that CAP theorem stuff?
2019-09-24T07:26:51Z White_Flame: then maybe you do actaully want erlang
2019-09-24T07:27:04Z White_Flame: as its live update has specific staging points and is less ad hoc
2019-09-24T07:27:13Z ralt: but I like lisp :(
2019-09-24T07:27:30Z White_Flame: well, then build the OTP features in lisp
2019-09-24T07:27:49Z ralt: I guess that's the only way out :)
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2019-09-24T07:28:04Z White_Flame: but again, live update reduces the need for scheduled maintenance style downtime but doesn't eliminate downtime
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2019-09-24T07:28:25Z ralt: it doesn't?
2019-09-24T07:28:34Z ralt: isn't the function replacement atomic?
2019-09-24T07:31:53Z White_Flame: no, but even if it were, it doesn't eliminate downtime due to crashes, bugs, user error, hardware failure, etc
2019-09-24T07:32:14Z shrdlu68: ralt: I'm not convinced there is any advantage to live upgrades versus, for example, rolling upgrades in something like Kubernetes.
2019-09-24T07:32:39Z jdz: ralt: It's very rare that a single function can be updated independently.
2019-09-24T07:33:07Z jdz: If a function has changed, it probably uses other functions that also have changed.
2019-09-24T07:33:33Z ralt: ah, right
2019-09-24T07:33:43Z ralt: way to shatter my dreams
2019-09-24T07:33:59Z jdz: So basically what is needed is to replace all the code, and then move the data to the new codebase (probably fixing it).  Exactly what OTP in Erlang does, as far as I know.
2019-09-24T07:34:58Z White_Flame: what erlang does is continue calling your old code when it's inside a module, and external calls to it call the new version
2019-09-24T07:35:09Z White_Flame: so a single stack stays in a unified version
2019-09-24T07:35:22Z White_Flame: and things shoudl "eventually" unroll and reenter, with the new version
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2019-09-24T07:37:46Z shrdlu68: Exactly what happens in the stateless "container orchestration" world, only it's a whole "ecosystem" working together rather than a single language's model.
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2019-09-24T07:49:21Z shrdlu68: They tackled the same problem at the network layer, essentially.
2019-09-24T07:50:03Z jdz: Except the Erlang model is not stateless.
2019-09-24T07:50:15Z jdz: The state is maintained.
2019-09-24T07:53:15Z shrdlu68: You still have to deal with the problem at the network layer if you want rolling upgrades and high availability.
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2019-09-24T08:00:18Z shrdlu68: lfarm looks interesting at first blush, but I suspect if one attempted to hack together a "distributed computing" platform based on it on would end up with an ad-hoc, informally-specified...
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2019-09-24T08:00:54Z devon: Anybody there?
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2019-09-24T08:00:59Z White_Flame: nope
2019-09-24T08:01:41Z no-defun-allowed: no
2019-09-24T08:03:10Z devon: LOL what's the best way to make a programmatic input stream, e.g., one that produces all the digits of π?
2019-09-24T08:04:17Z no-defun-allowed: Well, Gray streams are the standard for programmatic streams, but producing the digits of π is still your problem.
2019-09-24T08:04:26Z shrdlu68: devon: What's one way?
2019-09-24T08:05:18Z White_Flame: just use an iterator
2019-09-24T08:05:47Z White_Flame: or if you want better throughput, fill a buffer with results, and keep a double buffer full
2019-09-24T08:06:02Z White_Flame: keeping a pipeline of filled buffers, depending on your tuning parameters
2019-09-24T08:09:05Z jackdaniel: http://hellsgate.pl/files/af635253-xxx.lisp, but instead of producing all three digits of pi it also returns "." ;)
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2019-09-24T08:10:05Z White_Flame: why not use pi?
2019-09-24T08:10:18Z White_Flame: or I guess (write-to-string pi)
2019-09-24T08:10:33Z jackdaniel: constant pi has more digits than all three ,)
2019-09-24T08:10:54Z White_Flame drops a 22/7 on jackdaniel's head
2019-09-24T08:10:54Z jackdaniel: but more seriously, sure, I've just hacked something in a repl to illustrate how to make an input-character-stream
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2019-09-24T08:11:26Z jackdaniel: I find a fixnum 3 being a very decent approximation of 3
2019-09-24T08:11:31Z jackdaniel: s/of 3/of pi/
2019-09-24T08:11:59Z jackdaniel: s/being/to be/
2019-09-24T08:13:10Z devon: jackdaniel: thanks
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2019-09-24T08:16:15Z jackdaniel: or if you know all three digits beforehand: (with-input-from-string (s #.(write-to-string pi)) (read-char s))
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2019-09-24T08:18:56Z White_Flame: big question is if the stream is infinite, finite but too big to hold, or small enough to represent directly?
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2019-09-24T08:31:24Z devon: Why compute anything, go modern with '(#\3 #\. #\1 #\4 #\1 #\5 #\9 #\2 #\6 #\5 #\3 #\5 #\8 #\9 #\7 #\9 #\3 . #1= (#\2 #\6 #\5 #\0 #\1 #\8 #\9 #\7 #\4 #\3 . #1#))
2019-09-24T08:32:31Z jackdaniel: there is infinite number of digits there, but I'm not certain they are *the right ones* ;)
2019-09-24T08:34:29Z devon: LOL, the mass media won't fact check it, modern times, man!
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2019-09-24T09:14:53Z flip214: jackdaniel: if you include all digits from 0 to 9, they'll be the right ones for decimal ... just the order might be wrong.
2019-09-24T09:16:05Z jackdaniel: if it only had #\0 :)
2019-09-24T09:16:31Z jackdaniel: I'm right now doing some computations in repl to print last four digits of pi
2019-09-24T09:16:47Z jackdaniel: it seems that it may take some time
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2019-09-24T09:17:08Z jackdaniel: so I'm considering adding some declarations to the function
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2019-09-24T09:17:42Z no-defun-allowed: (declaim (optimize (speed 4) (safety 0)))
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2019-09-24T09:25:15Z flip214: jackdaniel: for hexadecimal output there's a really easy way to get _any_ specified digit, without needing to calculate all other ones
2019-09-24T09:27:49Z pjb: ralt: servers don't necessarily crash.  Or more precisely, they may crash, but without losing any running process or data.
2019-09-24T09:27:58Z pjb: ralt: see eros-os for example.
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2019-09-24T10:00:06Z p_l: we even have commodity servers running pretty much random software and OSes survive exploding the server
2019-09-24T10:00:28Z p_l: you might get some hiccups in connections but you probably won't lose the connections themselves
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2019-09-24T18:12:15Z jasom: does the lisp standard define what combinations 2-ary multiplies (* A B C D) is equal to, or is any algebraically equivalent calculation valid?
2019-09-24T18:12:30Z jasom: obv. it only matters for inexact numeric representations.
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2019-09-24T18:14:32Z pjb: jasom: the arguments are evaluated from left to right, but the standard doesn't impose an order of association or commutation for the evaluation of the operation per se.
2019-09-24T18:15:04Z jasom: pjb: that's what I thought; so there is no guarantee e.g. that (= (* A B C D) (* (* (* A B) C) D))
2019-09-24T18:15:11Z pjb: jasom: so an implementation could do (* (* (* a b) c) d)  or (* a (* b (* c d)))  or (* (* a d) (* b c)) or anything else.
2019-09-24T18:15:16Z jasom: right
2019-09-24T18:15:29Z pjb: Indeed, you may obtain different results, notably when using floating point numbers.
2019-09-24T18:15:40Z jasom hates floating point
2019-09-24T18:15:46Z pjb: You can use ratios!
2019-09-24T18:16:00Z pjb: Or if you want consistent results, you may sort your arguments yourself.
2019-09-24T18:16:01Z jasom: at least with log-scaled numbers addition and subtraction are so difficult that you avoid it.
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2019-09-24T18:16:31Z jasom: pjb: oh, does the standard forbid reordering (* (* (* A B) C) D)?
2019-09-24T18:16:47Z pjb: eg. write (let ((a 42) (b 3.4) (c 5.6) (d 33/2))  (* (* a d) (* b c))) #| --> 13194.721 |#
2019-09-24T18:16:55Z pjb: the implementation can re-order as it wishes.
2019-09-24T18:17:20Z jasom: interestingly enough, without the IEEE addendum, C permits algebraic rewriting of floating point operations (though most compilers with FP support implement the IEEE addendum).
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2019-09-24T18:18:08Z pjb: That said, I don't know any implementation doing much reordering or sorting the arguments by type.  Usually they'll just left associate.
2019-09-24T18:18:37Z jasom: The nice thing is that good support of ratios allows me to treat FP as an optimization rather than the easiest way to perform fractional calculations.
2019-09-24T18:19:18Z jasom: hmm, looking in scrollback, devon might be interested in computable-reals which has an arbitrary precision pi.
2019-09-24T18:19:51Z pjb: Indeed. (let ((a 42) (b 34/10) (c 56/10) (d 33/2))  (* (* a d) (* b c))) #| --> 329868/25 |#  (float 329868/25 0.0d0) #| --> 13194.72D0 |#
2019-09-24T18:20:08Z pjb: which is a more precise result.
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2019-09-24T18:21:56Z jasom: but (- 4 (expt 105/166 1/3)) is close enough for government work ;)
2019-09-24T18:22:01Z Bike: sbcl at least rearranges constants, and it's probably not the only one
2019-09-24T18:22:11Z Bike: not sure if it sorts by type
2019-09-24T18:22:25Z jasom: Bike: right it folds all constants together into a single term, no?
2019-09-24T18:22:28Z Bike: yeah
2019-09-24T18:22:36Z Bike: which would alter the result i suppose
2019-09-24T18:22:39Z Bike: could*
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2019-09-24T18:24:55Z Bike: clhs 12.1.1.1.1
2019-09-24T18:24:55Z specbot: Examples of Associativity and Commutativity in Numeric Operations: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/12_aaaa.htm
2019-09-24T18:25:05Z Bike: and parent are the explicit statement if you want that
2019-09-24T18:25:32Z Bike: phrased in terms of conversions instead, but still
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2019-09-24T18:26:46Z jasom: but optimizing across function-call boundaries when the results would differ is disallowed
2019-09-24T18:27:27Z jasom: e.g. rewriting (* A (+ B C)) to be (+ (* A B) (* A C))
2019-09-24T18:27:53Z jasom: (or the reverse of what I said which would actually be an optimization)
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2019-09-24T18:39:15Z aeth: pjb, jasom: There is sort of a guarantee... that a quality floating point implementation won't mess with floating point order. I see no reason to use ratios instead of floating point. If an implementation chooses to mess with floating point algorithms, that's on them.
2019-09-24T18:40:24Z aeth: Bike, jasom: I don't think SBCL does mess with constant for floating point. I remember seeing that they didn't even optimize away multiplication by 0.0f0 in their generated assembly.
2019-09-24T18:40:37Z aeth: s/constant/constants/
2019-09-24T18:41:13Z jasom: aeth: multiplying NAN or INF by 0.0f0 results in a non-zero value
2019-09-24T18:41:16Z aeth: I'm unsure about mixed operations like (* 4 x 1/2) though
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2019-09-24T18:41:41Z aeth: jasom: yes, that's probably why, you can disable floating point traps in most implementations to get the underlying IEEE float with the NANs and INFs
2019-09-24T18:41:52Z aeth: (instead of an exception)
2019-09-24T18:41:54Z jasom: aeth: the biggest problem with floting point is addition/subtraction are dangerous.  That's why I use ratios by default.
2019-09-24T18:42:59Z aeth: jasom: floating point has many issues, I'd restrict its use in general to implementing known numerical algorithms that other people came up with, if you care about accuracy.
2019-09-24T18:43:07Z aeth: fortunately, there's a lot of them.
2019-09-24T18:43:27Z White_Flame: dangerous how?  in that a large + small number might effectively be a no-op?
2019-09-24T18:43:40Z White_Flame: or fear of overflow/nan/inf operations?
2019-09-24T18:44:03Z jasom: White_Flame: ~1.0 + ~(-1.0) = some small number
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2019-09-24T18:44:34Z jasom: White_Flame: multiplicative operations will lose at most 1ULP of accuracy, additive operations can leave you with complete garbage.
2019-09-24T18:44:36Z White_Flame: hmm, that part doesn't seem specifically "dangerous" to me
2019-09-24T18:45:27Z jasom: White_Flame: e.g. there are multiple FP implementations for the quadradic equation depending on the signedess of the b, 4ac parts.
2019-09-24T18:46:28Z Bike: the different parts, not just the discriminant?
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2019-09-24T18:47:16Z jasom: sorry, the disciminant (and B, depending on your thoughts of having the sgn function in your equation).
2019-09-24T18:47:37Z Bike: ah. still, interesting
2019-09-24T18:48:00Z jasom: It's the most well known function that involves catastrophic loss of precision, so it's the canonical example.
2019-09-24T18:48:23Z jasom: The pythagorean theorum can show some oddities when you are far from the origin as well, which is yet another argument for not using floats for coordinates.
2019-09-24T18:49:11Z White_Flame: yeah, and I've done some 3d graphics stuff far away from the origin which starts aliasing badly as well
2019-09-24T18:49:25Z jasom: There are approximately zero cases in which it makes more sense to use a double float than a 64-bit integer for a coordinate system. (doubles made some sense when it was faster to add 2 doubles than 2 64-bit integers).
2019-09-24T18:50:50Z aeth: jasom: eh, depends
2019-09-24T18:51:14Z aeth: If you want performance over accuracy and it's for a game and you're going to be converting to float dozens of times a second...
2019-09-24T18:51:34Z aeth: You'd probably only be forced to use integers on star-system-scale maps
2019-09-24T18:51:34Z jasom: yeah, if your hardware requires floats, then you are stuck.
2019-09-24T18:51:42Z White_Flame: also, you'll be dealing with fixed point multiplication & reducing from 128-bit results
2019-09-24T18:51:59Z White_Flame: (which of course is fine in Lisp, can be a pain elsewhere)
2019-09-24T18:52:29Z aeth: jasom: the thing is, in games you want performance, not precision, and in scientific calculations, you can just use a fancier algorithm to get your error small enough since it's inexact anyway
2019-09-24T18:52:38Z aeth: so float is a lot more useful than you make it sound
2019-09-24T18:53:22Z Bike: i think most scientists' engagement with numeric algorithms is ignoring matlab warnings that a matrix is near singular
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2019-09-24T18:53:32Z aeth: (and many of the issues with float are the issues with not using hardware decimal float, which is the fault of hardware makers, not float)
2019-09-24T18:53:36Z jasom: Bike: lol
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2019-09-24T18:54:48Z jasom: Bike: more seriously the field is split between those super familiar with the limitations of the computational hardware, and the rest of the field, where the best you can hope is that they use libraries written by the former.
2019-09-24T18:54:50Z aeth: Bike: well, most of this thought should be moved to a library and not thought about at each use, e.g. a CL implementation of BLAS
2019-09-24T18:55:24Z Bike: i mean, i've generally been impressed by matlab's treatment. documentation with citations is pretty nice
2019-09-24T18:55:36Z Bike: maybe it's different in physics, but i have my doubts
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2019-09-24T21:06:27Z jasom: Hmm, CLISP's long-float pi value is off by more than one ULP for very large precision values
2019-09-24T21:08:30Z jasom: nevermind, the first hit in google for "100000 digits of pi" was wrong.
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2019-09-24T21:35:33Z pjb: Bike: it's different in physics.  For example, you will find that the circumference of the Earth is not 2πr, but it's smaller.  Because of relativity.
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2019-09-24T21:54:08Z Xach: ha
2019-09-24T21:55:05Z no-defun-allowed: Hopefully you aren't using your program at 0.9c then.
2019-09-24T21:56:44Z clothespin: How many hours a week do people here program?
2019-09-24T21:57:07Z pjb: Theorically 100% of the time.  Including dream time…
2019-09-24T21:57:18Z pjb: In practice a little less.
2019-09-24T21:57:46Z no-defun-allowed: I try to program about 12 hours a week, but I'd say I'm only productive for 4 to 6 hours.
2019-09-24T21:57:50Z clothespin: I go bonkers if i program more than 30 or so
2019-09-24T21:58:25Z pjb: I'm going bonker when I program less than that…
2019-09-24T21:58:26Z clothespin: i'm around 20 to 24
2019-09-24T22:00:41Z clothespin: are you able to get something good done when you only have an hour or so before you have to go somewhere?
2019-09-24T22:01:15Z clothespin: i have to have at least 2 hours to zone-in
2019-09-24T22:01:19Z Oladon_work: Depends on how well I've scoped out next steps
2019-09-24T22:01:26Z jasom: clothespin: that takes practice
2019-09-24T22:02:08Z jasom: clothespin: also, keep notes *somewhere* about what needs to be done next before you leave; that means stopping work 5 minutes earlier than you would otherwise, but if it saves you an hour of time to zone-in on the otherside, it's easily worth it.
2019-09-24T22:02:30Z Oladon_work: It's a fallacy that you have to be "zoned in" in order to be productive — to maximize productivity, perhaps, but if you've scoped out the project (or part of the project) well and appropriately, you can pick up one piece much more easily.
2019-09-24T22:02:36Z Oladon_work: Also, what jasom said.
2019-09-24T22:02:36Z clothespin: i keep a journal with a detailed todo list in evernote
2019-09-24T22:02:58Z Oladon_work: "detailed todo list" says nothing about the quality of the scoping :)
2019-09-24T22:03:23Z jasom: clothespin: I'm more thinking a brain-dump; I tried X, Y, and Z, they didn't work because Q, so I'm going to change directions and investigate W next.
2019-09-24T22:03:42Z jasom: enough touchstones to get your brain back to where it was the last time you were working.
2019-09-24T22:04:20Z clothespin: the state of my emacs buffers does that for me
2019-09-24T22:04:52Z jasom: I would argue it doesn't if it takes you 2 hours to start being productive :P
2019-09-24T22:04:54Z clothespin: i think it's more of an issue of relaxing my mind
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2019-09-24T22:06:00Z clothespin: i have to put on music, maybe get a cup of coffee,  finish email
2019-09-24T22:06:46Z jasom: That's partly practice, and partly self-introspection.  You will get better at getting in the flow with practice, but you'll also want to analyze why can't you do so without (for example) checking your e-mail?
2019-09-24T22:06:47Z clothespin: i just see these folks with macbooks hacking every opportune second of the day
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2019-09-24T22:08:12Z clothespin: i could get back in the flow easier when i was younger
2019-09-24T22:08:45Z jasom: IMO that's partly due to them having poor time management skills ;) but also some types of coding are more routine than others.  I can speed up a poorly performing program with my brain half-off, and similar for porting code.  For debugging something (particularly something hard to reproduce), I need maximum focus.
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2019-09-24T22:09:38Z clothespin: yes, i agree.  when i was running test scripts ob builds i could hack for 5 minutes
2019-09-24T22:10:16Z clothespin: now that i'm doing more architecture and i want elegant solutions i have to slow down
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2019-09-24T22:10:51Z clothespin: i was just curious as to what other programmer's habits are
2019-09-24T22:11:17Z pjb: clothespin: https://www.amazon.fr/Coders-Work-Reflections-Craft-Programming/dp/1430219483/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_fr_FR=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=coders+at+work&qid=1569363071&s=gateway&sr=8-1
2019-09-24T22:13:00Z jasom: clothespin: for that, it can help to invert things a bit; collect problems and whenever you learn a new elegant solution, try each problem against it.
2019-09-24T22:13:24Z clothespin: another weird thing is that i only scratch the surface using emacs keybindings
2019-09-24T22:13:59Z clothespin: i need to spend a couple of days getting my hadns used to more
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2019-09-24T22:16:45Z clothespin: jasom: what do you mean exactly?  I code crap until i see the elegant solution, then i rewrite until the crap goes away and repeat
2019-09-24T22:17:10Z jasom: clothespin: basically
2019-09-24T22:17:34Z clothespin: coding even crap in lisp basically helps you devise the solution faster
2019-09-24T22:17:54Z clothespin: i haven't written a flowchart since 1992
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2019-09-24T22:19:51Z clothespin: I literally dreamed of a solution to avoid extra destinations for coordinates in generating vertex buffers
2019-09-24T22:20:39Z clothespin: at the expense of a little more gpu memory
2019-09-24T22:20:57Z clothespin: but it was like 3 am running through my brain over and over
2019-09-24T22:21:47Z clothespin: supposedly the dude who discovered benzene did so in his sleep
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2019-09-24T22:32:40Z clothespin: well thanks for making me feel normal peeps, those guys with the macbooks on the train had me worried i was a less productive hacker
2019-09-24T22:33:44Z pjb: clothespin: ask fade, he does that.
2019-09-24T22:33:48Z pjb: s/fade/fare/
2019-09-24T22:35:17Z clothespin: I think Andreas Fuchs and Carl Shapiro doe that too but those guys are just exceptional
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2019-09-25T03:23:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-25T04:36:10Z p_l: Is there some kind of CMS written in CL? Designed to be extensible
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2019-09-25T04:37:11Z no-defun-allowed: CMS?
2019-09-25T04:37:34Z beach: minion: What does CMS stand for?
2019-09-25T04:37:35Z minion: Celloid Melted Stummy
2019-09-25T04:37:58Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Usually "Content Management System".
2019-09-25T04:38:41Z p_l: I have just lost my night over a PHP one :|
2019-09-25T04:39:08Z p_l reloads the database from backup again
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2019-09-25T04:40:48Z beach: Wow, the Wikipedia article on CMS is so general that it could work as a description of a text editor too.
2019-09-25T04:41:29Z p_l: beach: a text editor is a CMS, though that's very reductionist view
2019-09-25T04:41:39Z beach: Ah, no wonder then.
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2019-09-25T04:42:15Z LdBeth: beach: well it about multi people editing
2019-09-25T04:42:51Z LdBeth: Actually it can be very useful, but I’m little interested
2019-09-25T04:42:57Z p_l: the way my (primitive so far) blog works would be very well a representative of "headless" CMS (I use Emacs + org-mode + custom lisp code to output data that is then compiled into HTML)
2019-09-25T04:43:56Z no-defun-allowed: The first thing I think of is Coleslaw <https://github.com/coleslaw-org/coleslaw>
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2019-09-25T04:45:16Z buffergn0me: text editor with a distributed version control system is the best CMS
2019-09-25T04:46:17Z LdBeth: Version control sucks, cause the user is not expected to resolve conflicts
2019-09-25T04:46:18Z aeth: I thought that the definition of CMS was "Wordpress or Wordpress-like"?
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2019-09-25T04:49:09Z aeth: so, basically "blog with integrated editor"
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2019-09-25T04:49:55Z p_l: that's just one subset
2019-09-25T04:50:05Z p_l: wordpress is very popular as CMS
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2019-09-25T04:50:33Z p_l: on completely different scale you have BBC's or, iirc, NYT's CMSes
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2019-09-25T05:46:46Z pjb: beach: that's unfortunately the problem with most natural language definitions, to be too general.  See for example, how difficult it is to characterize "river", to be able to designate the shortest river of the world:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEGzvZ85dgs
2019-09-25T05:49:50Z pjb: see also: Zawinski's Law: “Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.”, and Greenspun's tenth rule: "Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp."
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2019-09-25T05:58:43Z beach: pjb: It sometimes a problem with the definition itself, and sometimes a problem with the concept not being precise enough.
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2019-09-25T06:00:15Z pjb: beach: granted, but people (neural networks) don't seem in general have any problem classifying instances.  What happens is that two different neural network may differ on extreme cases.
2019-09-25T06:00:21Z beach: pjb: And for programs that expand, I think that is a phenomenon related to the difficulty of making programs work together in primitive systems such as Unix.  There would be no need to do that kind of thing in CLOSOS.
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2019-09-25T06:01:46Z beach: Which reminds me, instead of imagining a "web browser" in Common Lisp, it would probably be better to imagine separate systems for formatting HTML, for showing PDFs, for viewing MPEG movies, etc.
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2019-09-25T06:29:28Z shrdlu68: Anyone here using GNU Guix? That plus StumpWM would make a lispy environment.
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2019-09-25T06:56:48Z buffergn0me: shrdlu68: I am planning to install GuixSD real soon now
2019-09-25T07:00:09Z beach: shrdlu68: Perhaps you would be interested in using McCLIM with its listener.  That would be even Lispier.
2019-09-25T07:00:14Z buffergn0me: shrdlu68: Unfortunately I do not think Guix (or Scheme in general) is very Lispy. Rewriting core Unix programs in Guix is a great thing to do (what GuixSD is all about). They are still separate programs in separate address spaces.
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2019-09-25T07:07:27Z buffergn0me: shrdlu68: What I think would go a long way to fixing that is extending the Swank protocol to operate in a client-server way properly (like the X Window System and Emacs daemon work), so that multiple Lisp/Scheme processes can open debugger prompts in the UI (Emacs, McCLIM desktop, etc.)
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2019-09-25T07:10:05Z shrdlu68: buffergn0me: One step at a time now :D
2019-09-25T07:10:14Z buffergn0me: shrdlu68: A lot of work, but then you could work with multiple Lisp processes in a very similar way to Genera.
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2019-09-25T08:30:05Z Shinmera: Alloy is progressing. https://youtu.be/DbLBze3beOo
2019-09-25T08:30:12Z Shinmera: Slowly, but surely.
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2019-09-25T09:59:50Z makomo: what's the best way to get multiple repls for a single lisp image within slime? i want to be able to start off a computation in one repl and still have another one around to play within.
2019-09-25T10:00:24Z makomo: currently i'm using M-x slime-connect and opening multiple connections, but this requires a bit of hacking as slime calls swank's create-server with dont-close set to nil (hardcoded within start-swank.lisp)
2019-09-25T10:01:03Z makomo: (well, it's not slime that calls it, but it loads the file into the image)
2019-09-25T10:02:28Z no-defun-allowed: SLIME has a mrepl contrib (the name of which I will doublecheck), but it's a little less fancy than the usual SLIME REPL.
2019-09-25T10:02:29Z jackdaniel: I'd call create-server on my
2019-09-25T10:05:07Z makomo: no-defun-allowed: i'll check it out
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2019-09-25T10:09:14Z makomo: jackdaniel: what do you mean? call create-server manually?
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2019-09-25T10:13:09Z shka_: hello
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2019-09-25T10:13:30Z shka_: quick question
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2019-09-25T10:14:06Z jackdaniel: makomo: you say that something in slime calls call-server with an argument set to nil
2019-09-25T10:14:22Z shka_: … ok, i just figured this, sorry for bothering you
2019-09-25T10:14:25Z jackdaniel: is something preventing you from calling (swank:create-server …) in lisp code? or did you mean something elase?
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2019-09-25T10:19:28Z makomo: jackdaniel: well, i'd like to modify the "default" swank server that slime creates, rather than create my own (an additional one)
2019-09-25T10:19:44Z makomo: but i was looking at the wrong place. start-swank.lisp isn't actually loaded from what i can see
2019-09-25T10:21:40Z makomo: right, the value isn't hardcoded after all. swank-loader.lisp is loaded into the image and swank:start-server is called
2019-09-25T10:21:58Z makomo: which gets its value from the global swank:*dont-close* variable
2019-09-25T10:23:22Z makomo: which i already knew lol, not sure why i thought start-swank.lisp was relevant at all
2019-09-25T10:24:21Z makomo: but i wanted to avoid setting the variable within .sbclrc, because then i have to manually load swank. i just found out that ~/.swank.lisp can be used from slime-specific stuff https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Lisp_002dside.html
2019-09-25T10:24:24Z makomo: that should do it :)
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2019-09-25T10:28:10Z makomo: s/from/for/
2019-09-25T10:29:03Z jackdaniel: Is there a way to say: this generic function may be specialized only on the second argument?
2019-09-25T10:29:14Z jackdaniel: (as in: enforce that)
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2019-09-25T10:33:01Z flip214: jackdaniel: you can write your own GF metaclass. perhaps :argument-precedence-order is good enough, though?
2019-09-25T10:33:23Z flip214: or just use inlined-GF, that should amount to your wishes already.
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2019-09-25T10:40:10Z jackdaniel: flip214: thank you
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2019-09-25T11:54:06Z Shinmera: Good news! ELS 2020, April 27th - 28th is now officially announced! https://european-lisp-symposium.org/2020/index.html
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2019-09-25T11:55:12Z no-defun-allowed: 🎉
2019-09-25T11:55:38Z gjvc: ooh
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2019-09-25T11:58:34Z shka_: Shinmera: superb!
2019-09-25T11:59:37Z Shinmera: I'm very excited
2019-09-25T11:59:52Z beach: April?
2019-09-25T12:00:04Z beach: You hinted end of March.
2019-09-25T12:00:09Z beach: ... before.
2019-09-25T12:00:17Z beach: Anyway, congratulations!
2019-09-25T12:00:24Z Shinmera: That was before I asked Didier for confirmation, and he preferred end of April.
2019-09-25T12:00:29Z beach: OK.
2019-09-25T12:00:36Z beach: Not a problem for me.
2019-09-25T12:00:47Z beach: One more month to write papers. :)
2019-09-25T12:00:56Z Shinmera: Heh
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2019-09-25T12:01:10Z Shinmera: University is real busy this semester, but I hope I can turn Alloy into a paper still
2019-09-25T12:02:37Z Shinmera: Anyway, what I hope more than that is that I can provide an enjoyable conference for everyone!
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2019-09-25T12:03:06Z beach: I am sure that can be possible.
2019-09-25T12:06:54Z beach: Are you planning to have catering for lunch and such?
2019-09-25T12:07:30Z Shinmera: I'm not sure about Lunch -- there's a lot of restaurants close by, but for the banquet there'll be catering.
2019-09-25T12:07:36Z Shinmera: Haven't looked into the details yet, though.
2019-09-25T12:08:03Z beach: I see.
2019-09-25T12:08:19Z beach: So the banquet will be in the same place as the conference?
2019-09-25T12:08:23Z Shinmera: Yes
2019-09-25T12:08:26Z beach: Nice!
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2019-09-25T12:08:59Z Shinmera: Yeah, we get to use the place for the evening, so it should work out fine
2019-09-25T12:09:09Z beach: Wonderful!
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2019-09-25T12:09:32Z Shinmera: Just have to go through catering options and price optimisation sometime soon ;)
2019-09-25T12:10:03Z Shinmera: For Sunday I was thinking about a tour through Zürich, though that depends a lot on the weather, which is unpredictable in April.
2019-09-25T12:10:07Z beach: I personally much prefer catering for lunch as well, but that's partly because my (admittedly small) family is not very mobile, so we take a lot of time.  Plus, it is always messy to show up 50 people at a restaurant.
2019-09-25T12:10:24Z Shinmera: Yes, definitely.
2019-09-25T12:10:34Z beach: Oh, a tour sounds nice.
2019-09-25T12:10:49Z beach: With what kind of locomotion?
2019-09-25T12:10:59Z Shinmera: On foot, mostly.
2019-09-25T12:11:02Z beach: OK.
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2019-09-25T15:38:46Z Josh_2: How do I convert a string like "*abc*" into a symbol that looks like *abc*?
2019-09-25T15:39:10Z asdf_asdf_asdf: make-symbol
2019-09-25T15:39:30Z Josh_2: Comes out like -> #:|*abc*|
2019-09-25T15:39:45Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (coerce 'abc 'symbol)
2019-09-25T15:39:57Z beach: Josh_2: That's correct.
2019-09-25T15:40:19Z Josh_2: asdf_asdf_asdf: that works thanks :)
2019-09-25T15:41:03Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: I would be a bit more restrictive about giving advice if I were you.
2019-09-25T15:42:10Z Josh_2: hmm
2019-09-25T15:42:18Z Josh_2: that doesn't work with strings ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2019-09-25T15:42:24Z beach: Josh_2: Coercing a symbol to a symbol is easy.
2019-09-25T15:42:27Z Josh_2: Yes
2019-09-25T15:42:32Z Josh_2: I just noticed that haha
2019-09-25T15:43:40Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Josh_2, what is not works? Example, please.
2019-09-25T15:43:52Z Josh_2: perhaps it would be better for me to not try to generate defparams but to generate hash table entries and create setfable functions that return the value instead
2019-09-25T15:43:58Z Josh_2: (coerce "abc" 'symbol)
2019-09-25T15:44:10Z pjb: Josh_2: indeed.
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2019-09-25T15:45:37Z pjb: Josh_2: (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :downcase) (print (intern "*abc*"))
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2019-09-25T15:46:28Z asdf_asdf_asdf: SB-KERNEL:COERCE-SYMBOL-TO-FUN (fbound)
2019-09-25T15:46:39Z pjb: Josh_2: alternatively: (setf *print-case* :downcase) (print (intern (string-upcase "*abc*"))) ; will make it look like *abc*.
2019-09-25T15:47:28Z pjb: Looks are deceiving.
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2019-09-25T15:58:53Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @Josh_2. (defun x (a b) (+ a b)) => X (funcall (sb-kernel::coerce-symbol-to-fun 'x) 10 20) => 30
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2019-09-25T16:08:09Z jasom: Josh_2: assuming the default reader, *abc* has a symbol-name of "*ABC*" so you need to upcase the string before interning it.
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2019-09-25T16:11:05Z Bike: don't use sb-kernel functions
2019-09-25T16:11:06Z Josh_2: can I create a normal function like (defun abc () 'abc) without using a macro? in this case it would be in a method
2019-09-25T16:11:48Z Bike: What do you mean, exactly?
2019-09-25T16:11:59Z Bike: "create" a normal function? "without using a macro"?
2019-09-25T16:12:09Z Josh_2: Okay, well I mean by not defining my own macro
2019-09-25T16:12:33Z Josh_2: and by create I mean I want a function that would be available at the repl
2019-09-25T16:12:43Z Josh_2: so (abc) etc..
2019-09-25T16:13:46Z Bike: You want your method to define a new, globally accessible function?
2019-09-25T16:13:51Z Josh_2: yes
2019-09-25T16:14:06Z Bike: I'd recommend not doing that, but if you really want to, just use defun.
2019-09-25T16:14:17Z Bike: (defmethod foo (...) (defun bar () 'bar) ...) is ok.
2019-09-25T16:15:28Z Josh_2: That's not going to work, I should have been more specific sorry
2019-09-25T16:15:41Z Josh_2: I need to generate the function names, not provide them
2019-09-25T16:16:57Z Josh_2: perhaps I am approaching this wrong
2019-09-25T16:17:18Z Oladon_work: Your description of what you want to do does not sound like a good idea.
2019-09-25T16:17:22Z Bike: You can do that if you really want to, but again, I don't recommend it. What are you trying to do over all?
2019-09-25T16:17:25Z Oladon_work: What are you actually trying to accomplish?
2019-09-25T16:18:20Z Josh_2: I am trying to create functions by the name of symbols used to access a hashtable, so for example (gethash :abc *hash*) would be (defun *abc* () (gethash :abc *hash*)) or something like that
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2019-09-25T16:19:02Z Josh_2: but I think it would be better to just use a macro that expands into (gethash :abc *hash*) etc that way I can easily modify the values
2019-09-25T16:19:04Z Harag: Josh_2: So you want to define functions at "run time" based on what ever rules, not at compile time like a macro would?
2019-09-25T16:20:11Z Josh_2: okay, basically I have the values in my hash table, I'm just trying to create a nice way to access the values and to alter them, which is similar to just having a global variable
2019-09-25T16:20:27Z Josh_2: I don't know the best way to do that, so I'm very open to suggestions :)
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2019-09-25T16:21:19Z Bike: (defun access (key) (gethash key *hash*)) is what i'd probably stick with
2019-09-25T16:21:23Z Bike: or something along those lines
2019-09-25T16:21:31Z Bike: throw in a setf function or make it a macro or whatever
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2019-09-25T16:22:12Z Josh_2: well then I would have to replace in my code *tcp-port* with (access :tcp-port) instead
2019-09-25T16:22:28Z Josh_2: I was thinking I could just have (*tcp-port*) instead of *tcp-port*
2019-09-25T16:22:29Z Josh_2: idk
2019-09-25T16:22:54Z Bike: well, sure. it's like a couple lines, no big deal
2019-09-25T16:23:05Z Bike: a couple characters even
2019-09-25T16:23:12Z Bike: use a symbol macro if you're really that concerned
2019-09-25T16:23:23Z Bike: i'd also recommend not naming functions with *asterisk* names
2019-09-25T16:23:36Z Josh_2: okay
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2019-09-25T16:24:24Z Josh_2: I will stick with (access ..) and if I find it annoying I will change it xD
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2019-09-25T16:49:58Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: I would be a bit more restrictive about giving advice if I were you.
2019-09-25T16:50:44Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Come on with this advices.
2019-09-25T16:51:31Z pjb: Josh_2: (funcall (let ((name 'abc))  (compile name `(lambda () ',name)))) #| --> abc |#
2019-09-25T16:51:42Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: Your advice often does not address the issue of the person asking the question, and there is no reason to believe that the person would want SBCL-specific solutions where portable Common Lisp solutions exist.
2019-09-25T16:52:02Z pjb: Josh_2: for methods, it would be more complicated. I don't know if it's possible without using defmethod.
2019-09-25T16:53:04Z pjb: Josh_2: but Oladon_work is right.  You should write simplier code.
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2019-09-25T16:53:54Z asdf_asdf_asdf: beach; no - your advices are not so good.
2019-09-25T16:54:14Z Bike: asdf_asdf_asdf: you are actively misleading people with bad advice. stop.
2019-09-25T16:54:26Z asdf_asdf_asdf: @Beach. Instead of helping, you are fooling around.
2019-09-25T16:55:54Z asdf_asdf_asdf: You more "spamming" instead helping.
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2019-09-25T18:14:20Z Josh_2: pjb: just seen your messages. Alrighty, well I went with just having a method to access with a key ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2019-09-25T18:50:57Z Josh_2: Once I have made my software and it has It's asd file and It's at a point where I want to use it in another project, where do I put it?
2019-09-25T18:51:04Z Josh_2: ~/quicklisp/local-projects?
2019-09-25T18:51:59Z Xach: Josh_2: that works
2019-09-25T18:52:53Z Josh_2: I must be doing something wrong then
2019-09-25T18:53:22Z Xach: Josh_2: what suggests that to you?
2019-09-25T18:53:44Z Josh_2: I have put my project into local-projects but when I try to load it into another asdf if not finding it
2019-09-25T18:54:20Z Josh_2: I think to be fair, this is a long running problem
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2019-09-25T18:54:43Z Josh_2: because i load up projects into my image using a function like (load-asd ..) then (load-system ..)
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2019-09-25T18:57:30Z Xach: Josh_2: does (ql:where-is-system "your-project-name") work?
2019-09-25T18:57:52Z Josh_2: It just returns nil
2019-09-25T18:58:06Z Josh_2: What is the proper way to manage projects with quicklisp, should all of them be in ~/local-projects?
2019-09-25T18:58:09Z Xach: Josh_2: what is the full path to your file's .asd?
2019-09-25T18:58:11Z Josh_2: Because I haven't been doing that
2019-09-25T18:58:13Z Xach: Josh_2: not necessarily.
2019-09-25T18:58:31Z Josh_2: "/home/josh/quicklisp/local-projects/cl-configurator/configurator-asdf.asd"
2019-09-25T18:58:44Z dlowe: I only put the asd files in local-projects, myself
2019-09-25T18:58:49Z Josh_2: o
2019-09-25T18:59:02Z dlowe: that's not to say that's the only correct thing to do
2019-09-25T18:59:07Z dlowe: it should work regardless
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2019-09-25T18:59:32Z Xach: Josh_2: and when you do (ql:where-is-system "configurator-asdf") returns nil?
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2019-09-25T18:59:52Z Josh_2: yes
2019-09-25T19:00:29Z Xach: Josh_2: can you try (ql:register-local-projects) and see if that changes the result?
2019-09-25T19:00:46Z Josh_2: Yep that worked
2019-09-25T19:00:52Z Xach: ok. phew.
2019-09-25T19:01:12Z Josh_2: Now (ql:where-is-system "cl-configurator") returns the pathname :)
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2019-09-25T19:12:40Z Josh_2: Well I'll be darned, I restarted my image and once again quicklisp can't find my local-project, so I tried (ql:register-local-projects) and it has not worked this time
2019-09-25T19:12:56Z another-user: hi, https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/ch37s05.html suggests that i can get c code from DISASSEMBLE but i'm getting bytecode instead
2019-09-25T19:13:14Z another-user: how can i get c from dissassemble?
2019-09-25T19:14:36Z another-user: i'm running ECL 16.1.3
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2019-09-25T19:15:33Z Josh_2: dlowe: do you just symlink your asd files into local-projects?
2019-09-25T19:16:12Z dlowe: Josh_2: that's right
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2019-09-25T19:16:49Z dlowe: Josh_2: I'm not suggesting this as a fix for anything
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2019-09-25T19:28:12Z Josh_2: It's a good idea though, means you can just quickload your projects?
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2019-09-25T19:33:28Z Josh_2: Well quicklisp doesn't like me
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2019-09-25T20:07:54Z jackdaniel: it seems he did not stick around to hear the answer
2019-09-25T20:08:36Z jackdaniel: for others wondering: try (disasemble '(lambda () function-body)) to get that, documentation has been updated to account for that issue
2019-09-25T20:08:38Z pjb: Josh_2: don't use asdf, use quicklisp!  (ql:quickload :your-system) !
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2019-09-25T20:35:42Z ym: When I paste text into *slime-repl sbcl* with more lines then is visible in Emacs' buffer, Emacs hangs. Could someone reproduce?
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2019-09-25T20:41:33Z asdf_asdf_asdf: ym chnage init file configuration.
2019-09-25T20:44:45Z Xach: ym: i haven't had that happen, but i also don't paste a lot usually. i write long things in files and send to the repl with C-c C-c.
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2019-09-25T20:51:54Z buffergn0me: ym: In Emacs, (setq debug-on-quit t) then when you press C-g (keyboard-quit) to interrupt the hung-up Emacs you will be dropped into the debugger with a backtrace, and you can debug form there
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2019-09-25T21:34:03Z jfb4: Xach: what's the difference between C-c C-c and C-M-x (slime-eval-defun) ? why not just use that?
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2019-09-25T21:36:52Z no-defun-allowed: C-c C-c won't evaluate a DEFVAR twice, whereas C-M-x will.
2019-09-25T21:37:07Z jfb4: no-defun-allowed: ah interesting, thanks
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2019-09-25T22:10:49Z Josh_2: is ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ supposed to be in asdf:*central-registry*?
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2019-09-25T22:26:19Z Josh_2: if I (ql:list-local-systems) I can see my projects at the top of the list, but if I try to load them, that's a no no
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2019-09-25T22:47:20Z White_Flame: Josh_2: it shouldn't have to be there.  QL seems to wrap around asdf, doens't need to modify things within it
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2019-09-25T22:47:33Z White_Flame: so I think something got messed up in your environment
2019-09-25T22:47:52Z Josh_2: I can uninstall it all I suppose
2019-09-25T22:48:04Z Josh_2: but I don't know what would have gone wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2019-09-25T22:48:57Z White_Flame: if you try to load them, QL claims it can't find that system?
2019-09-25T22:49:04Z Josh_2: Yes
2019-09-25T22:49:19Z Josh_2: it did work as I said above, but now it isn't working and I haven't changed anything xD
2019-09-25T22:49:52Z Josh_2: oh wait
2019-09-25T22:49:56Z Josh_2: ...
2019-09-25T22:49:57Z White_Flame: I would try clearing out ~/.cache/common-lisp before a reinstall
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2019-09-25T22:50:10Z White_Flame: heh, rubber duck debug mode engaged?
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2019-09-25T22:50:33Z Josh_2: well I stopped using "cl-configurator" and tried :cl-configurator and the latter worked...
2019-09-25T22:52:26Z Josh_2: for a different project I put a symbolic link of It's asd into local-projects, quicklisp is not loading that one oof
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2019-09-25T22:56:49Z Josh_2: I cleared the cache and restarted my image and now it won't find the one that was just working with either "" or : xD
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2019-09-25T23:10:23Z Xach: Josh_2: i would like to help but don't have time right now
2019-09-25T23:10:31Z Xach: jfb4: I find it easier to type!
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2019-09-26T00:32:56Z Josh_2: Xach no problems
2019-09-26T00:36:45Z vsync: anyone know how to bind the Enter key to anything in LispWorks on Windows?
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2019-09-26T00:45:10Z ym: Thanks.
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2019-09-26T10:59:04Z sindan: I don't see any function to identify a property list, apart from testing whether all the odd-positioned elements are keywords.
2019-09-26T10:59:20Z sindan: would that be right?
2019-09-26T11:00:01Z jackdaniel: sure, why not?
2019-09-26T11:00:12Z sindan: and that the length is even
2019-09-26T11:00:17Z jackdaniel: list is a bunch of conses, so you have no guarantee that someone won't push to it
2019-09-26T11:00:50Z jackdaniel: if you want to enforce some structure you either believe your peers or you come up with a protocol treating object as a opaque entity
2019-09-26T11:01:35Z sindan: sure, that's not the problem, I'm the only one accessing it, just wondered if there was some builtin function I didn't know of, but I can do it myself.
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2019-09-26T11:51:19Z sindan: is there some convention against nil being a plist? in principle it looks like one, empty
2019-09-26T11:52:12Z Shinmera: you're asking the wrong question.
2019-09-26T11:52:28Z Shinmera: A plist can only be a plist by intent. You cannot determine if something is or is not a plist programmatically.
2019-09-26T11:52:48Z Shinmera: because there is no type that can give you this information.
2019-09-26T11:53:35Z Shinmera: you could box a list in a structure and give that a type, thus carrying that type information somewhere, but then you're just shifting the question of whether it really has a plist or not to wherever that box is created.
2019-09-26T11:54:11Z Shinmera: So I can only ask why you want to know if something is a plist
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2019-09-26T11:55:11Z sindan: therefore I'm asking about some social consensus. I know there is not a specific plist type. I want to duck-type identify it because I have some flexible data structures.
2019-09-26T11:55:40Z Shinmera: The short answer is you can't, and you shouldn't. Be stricter about your data structures instead to avoid headaches like these.
2019-09-26T11:56:08Z sindan: Nah, I would be using other languages if I wanted the compiler to punish me
2019-09-26T11:56:31Z Shinmera: I don't think the compiler was mentioned anywhere at all
2019-09-26T11:56:36Z scymtym: the question is whether you want (check-type thing plist) (can be done) or (my-type-of thing) => 'plist (cannot be done in a robust way)
2019-09-26T11:58:32Z sindan: Shinmera, compiler = expression to denote strong type system, okay?
2019-09-26T11:58:52Z Shinmera: I'm not talking about strong typing either. I'm talking about building robust software.
2019-09-26T12:00:25Z sindan: Well, I know full well that it's shaky, that's the reason I asked, in case anyone had wondered about the same thing. I don't need any of this to be robust.
2019-09-26T12:03:33Z scymtym: sindan: if you are looking for heuristics, this is what we use in clouseau (mcclim's inspector): https://github.com/scymtym/McCLIM/blob/merge-new-inspector/Apps/Clouseau/src/objects/list.lisp#L115
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2019-09-26T12:04:18Z sindan: Shinmera, and, just wondering, how do you build robust software without strong typing anyway?
2019-09-26T12:04:34Z sindan: scymtym, thanks, I'll have a look
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2019-09-26T12:06:14Z Shinmera: sindan: The choice I made when I came across it was to not allow plists at all.
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2019-09-26T12:07:00Z Shinmera: sindan: By designing good protocols, erroring early, testing well, etc. Same as everywhere else.
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2019-09-26T12:08:56Z scymtym: a CL programmer is the wrong person to ask about mitigating absence of strong typing in any case
2019-09-26T12:09:35Z sindan: scymtym, that's exactly what I have done, except that instead of a loop I use (every #'keyword (plist-keys l)) doing what the loop does anyway
2019-09-26T12:09:49Z sindan: #'keywordp
2019-09-26T12:10:01Z White_Flame: CL is pretty strongly typed
2019-09-26T12:10:10Z scymtym: and consing a list of keys, but yes, semantically
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2019-09-26T12:11:26Z sindan: scymtym, very much agree, but I happen to be playing in CL so I came here to ask :)
2019-09-26T12:11:56Z White_Flame: it's just that "plist" is not a type ;)
2019-09-26T12:12:40Z White_Flame: it's like asking if a string is a username or a machine name
2019-09-26T12:12:54Z White_Flame: unless you actually put that information somewhere, it doesn't exist
2019-09-26T12:14:07Z sindan: White_Flame, therefore my use of the expression "social consensus"
2019-09-26T12:14:53Z sindan: or something like that; nil in CL is a bunch of disastrous abstraction-breaking things anyway.
2019-09-26T12:14:56Z White_Flame: btw, how would NIL not be a plist?  it doesn't violate any plist protocol.  It's an empty plist.  And empty alist.  And empty list.  And symbol :-P
2019-09-26T12:15:42Z White_Flame: I think you're asking if people always keep plists stuffed with at least 1 dummy key/value pair to somehow keep its plistness?  Not that I'm aware of
2019-09-26T12:16:36Z sindan: White_Flame, no, I was not asking that. That's butt ugly. Next thing you're gonna ask me is if I put the type name in the variables' names?
2019-09-26T12:16:50Z White_Flame: well, how else would you not have NIL as a plist?
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2019-09-26T12:17:20Z White_Flame: the original question doesn't leave much room for alternatives
2019-09-26T12:17:48Z sindan: But I said this from the beginning: I said "in principle, it looks like one, empty"
2019-09-26T12:19:14Z White_Flame: still, what would any alternative be?
2019-09-26T12:19:38Z White_Flame: (also, looking above that, there's zero requirement that plist keys be keywordp_
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2019-09-26T12:20:53Z sindan: I thought it was clear I was asking about some gotchas down the line, and that only those who had tried that would respond. Instead I got replies telling me what I already knew: that it's impossible to decide (of course, trying to assign a type to nil is silly), and that it looks like one, which I said.
2019-09-26T12:21:33Z Shinmera: I did try, and I did tell you what I ended up doing, too.
2019-09-26T12:22:03Z thijso: I wonder where you got the idea that writing robust software has anything at all to do with strong typing, or any typing at all...
2019-09-26T12:22:10Z White_Flame: you asked if it was convention to not consider NIL as a plist.
2019-09-26T12:22:19Z White_Flame: that's ... hard to unpack what it would mean if it weren't considered one
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2019-09-26T12:26:56Z sindan: White_Flame, that was also part of the question: the question could have been rephrased like: "to anyone who has wondered about this, how did you solve it and were there any gotchas?"
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2019-09-26T12:27:17Z White_Flame: (solve what, exactly?)
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2019-09-26T12:27:43Z sindan: Just forget it.
2019-09-26T12:27:46Z White_Flame: (and if the "what" is distinguishing it, then that's what all the other answers were already)
2019-09-26T12:28:04Z White_Flame: well, just trying to get at the root of the question.  that's fine
2019-09-26T12:28:45Z sindan: I find it impossible to understand that you still have not understood what is the root of the question. What information ae you missing anyway?
2019-09-26T12:29:38Z White_Flame: if you're asking if something goes one way or another, but one of the ways seems undefinable, the information I'm missing is what examples have you seen that make you question that other direction, as it doesn't seem possible
2019-09-26T12:30:19Z White_Flame: unless, as I posited above, you were asking if by "nil is not considered a plist", then an empty plist would have to be stuffed with a dummy entry or something
2019-09-26T12:30:41Z sindan: Well, the first part of your "if" is false. And you suppose way too much about what I'm asking.
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2019-09-26T12:31:37Z White_Flame: well, then I consider the question as worded to be ununderstandable :-P
2019-09-26T12:35:26Z sindan: Then ask about what I mean, instead of your first intervention "plist is not a type". When did I say that? It didn't help; you also repeat "nil looks like a plist", which is also information made clear in my question. If you can't process "has anyone wondering about this (and deciding it is or it is not a plist) found any problems afterwards", then I cannot explain it in a more simple way.
2019-09-26T12:36:38Z White_Flame: to be clear, I jumped in when a claim that CL was not strongly typed was made, and then tied it back to the topic
2019-09-26T12:37:23Z sindan: ok :)
2019-09-26T12:37:38Z White_Flame: and of course, people were wondering about "this" and telling you why it doesn't really exist
2019-09-26T12:38:03Z White_Flame: either nil is a plist, or an empty plist is not nil.  Those are really the only 2 choices by definition
2019-09-26T12:38:30Z White_Flame: (or at least the two simplest branches to take)
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2019-09-26T12:40:08Z sindan: Nah, don't apply logic to this. As I also said, nil in CL breaks abstractions right and left
2019-09-26T12:40:41Z scymtym: White_Flame: i'm not sure which claim you are referring to. i said a CL programmer was the wrong person to ask /because/ CL is strongly typed
2019-09-26T12:41:05Z White_Flame: scymtym: ah, ok
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2019-09-26T13:38:05Z White_Flame: while local package nicknames have some implementation, are there any projects out there that implement nested packages?
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2019-09-26T13:46:54Z beach: White_Flame: What is the main problem that nested packages would solve?
2019-09-26T13:47:35Z White_Flame: really, it's for a DSL.  but it would be nice if somebody already did that in CL to be able to piggyback its features
2019-09-26T13:47:43Z pjb: sindan: it is not silly to try to assign a type to NIL.  NIL belongs to an infinite number of types, between NULL and T.
2019-09-26T13:48:49Z pjb: beach: see https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp/relative-package.lisp#L106   notably: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp/relative-package.lisp#L165
2019-09-26T13:50:05Z pjb: beach: so nested packages provide more than local package names or nicknames or relative packages.
2019-09-26T13:50:37Z pjb: the question would rather be what set of feature we would need or want.
2019-09-26T13:52:18Z pjb: In that comment, I argue that structure in the naming scheme is enough, and that we wouldn't need or want recursive structure in packages themselves.
2019-09-26T13:53:04Z pjb: But without implementations and experiments we don't really know.
2019-09-26T13:53:44Z White_Flame: any heirarchy can alwys be implemented as pointers into a flat space
2019-09-26T13:53:50Z White_Flame: so I'm not sure that truly makes a distinction
2019-09-26T13:54:24Z pjb: Well the first difference would be that (delete-package "FOO") would delete also FOO.BAR and all other structurally nested package.
2019-09-26T13:54:37Z pjb: while with a flat structure, it would just delete "FOO" and keep "FOO.BAR" etc.
2019-09-26T13:54:37Z White_Flame: yep
2019-09-26T13:54:56Z pjb: So the question is what behavior is better?
2019-09-26T13:55:30Z White_Flame: I don't think it's necessarily "better", but what fits the current language requirements being implemented
2019-09-26T13:55:31Z pjb: Same with renaming.  If we rename "FOO" to "QUUX", will that also rename "FOO.BAR" to "QUUX.BAR"  This would seem a good idea, in the case of renaming.
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2019-09-26T13:56:21Z pjb: Indeed, working only on the names is the lightest change on existing CL.
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2019-09-26T14:00:35Z hortiel: hi
2019-09-26T14:00:54Z hortiel: compared to python C is quite verbose, but what about when compared to common lisp
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2019-09-26T14:01:14Z hortiel: I see some examples on benchmarks debian site, and lisp code too seems big enough?
2019-09-26T14:01:39Z pjb: hortiel: I find C is about 30x more verbose than lisp.
2019-09-26T14:02:02Z White_Flame: lisp doest not have syntax-level shortcuts for every little thing, so small code seems bigger in lisp than other langauges with lots of syntax
2019-09-26T14:02:05Z pjb: hortiel: have a look at http://cliki.net/Performance
2019-09-26T14:02:09Z White_Flame: but big code is much smaller in lisp
2019-09-26T14:02:47Z hortiel: what syntax-level shortcuts are you talking about
2019-09-26T14:03:14Z White_Flame: a[2] vs (aref a 2), or obj.slot vs (type-slot obj)
2019-09-26T14:03:21Z pjb: a++ = (incf a)
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2019-09-26T14:03:26Z pjb: stuff like that.
2019-09-26T14:03:47Z White_Flame: CL is much more regular, which really really lends well to metaprogramming
2019-09-26T14:05:52Z pjb: That said, with reader macros and macros, you can design a DSL that let you write very concise code.
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2019-09-26T14:09:45Z hortiel: it also has sig-nificantly  lower  variability,  whichtranslates  into  reduced  project  risk. ---what variability is mentioned here
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2019-09-26T14:12:46Z _death: it also helps to lower the threshold of abstraction, for example by obeying the law of demeter.. (foo-bar (quux-foo quux)) can be abstracted so you'll have (quux-bar quux).. other languages may tempt you to leave it as quux.foo.bar because it's not too much to type, but in the big you pay for this
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2019-09-26T14:13:46Z pjb: hortiel: take 10 programmers, have them implement the same thing.  You will get programming times, bug counts, program size, program speed that will vary a lot  If they write all in lisp, these variations will be reduced. The variability is reduced.
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2019-09-26T14:14:04Z beach: hortiel: Do you have a link for that quotation?
2019-09-26T14:14:24Z pjb: beach: It's in some paper or article in  http://cliki.net/Performance
2019-09-26T14:14:32Z beach: Thanks.
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2019-09-26T14:19:47Z beach: Oh, from Erran Gat.
2019-09-26T14:20:36Z hortiel: yes in cliki
2019-09-26T14:24:26Z beach: Stuff like that is hard to compare because it is hard to measure, and it is rare (probably because it is too costly) to see any scientifically significant investigation into differences between different programming languages.
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2019-09-26T14:30:18Z dlowe: People are so fussy about proofs and comparisons between languages. Just go with what you like. Let time sort it out.
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2019-09-26T14:38:04Z beach: Sort of.  When I give talks to industry, I cite the article by Hudak and Jones, not because of their claim that Haskell is best, but because I want to point out that the choice of programming language for a project is not to be taken lightly, because it can have a huge impact on the total cost of the project.
2019-09-26T14:39:13Z beach: Whereas in most cases, the choice is made because of some aspect that does not mean much to the final cost, like "all our programmers already know language X and none of them know language Y".
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2019-09-26T14:48:33Z dlowe: in my experience, social and management factors make so much more of a difference that differences due to technical decisions (as long as they are ballpark-appropriate) are just statistical noise
2019-09-26T14:50:09Z beach: Interesting.
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2019-09-26T15:44:18Z ecraven: is there a way to return a result in slime so that it will be a clickable link to open a file?
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2019-09-26T15:49:28Z _death: check out swank-presentations.lisp, it has a not-too-developed way to compute the menu (on right click).. it could be redesigned to be properly extensible, say in a way similar to pprint-dispatch
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2019-09-26T16:52:21Z aeth: pjb: On 30x more verbose... C is kind of the worst case in verbosity (not counting assembly or esolangs) because of its tiny standard library. Updates have added boolean and complex, but not very many things. And a lot of what C offers (e.g. with strings) can't really be used.
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2019-09-26T16:53:29Z aeth: Of course, most languages have to rely on updates to the standard to reduce verbosity...
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2019-09-26T17:06:29Z aeth: Oh, requiring a separate .h doesn't help C, either.
2019-09-26T17:11:06Z beach: Something that was not mentioned the other day, but that pjb usually points out, is that it is really awkward to use a language without automatic memory management for functional programming.  Because instead of writing (say, in C) f(g(x)), you often have to write {.. temp = g(x>); f(temp); free(temp);} which makes the program more verbose and harder to understand.
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2019-09-26T17:11:59Z beach: s/>// of course.
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2019-09-26T17:13:54Z aeth: At least in C++, afaik, that's usually only an issue when it's of variable or unknown-at-compile-time size and they try to stack allocate the rest (which has its own problems... like having to know when to &foo and when to *foo and when to (*foo) etc.).
2019-09-26T17:14:06Z pjb: Happily, there's boehm gc :-)
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2019-09-26T17:14:24Z aeth: (because now your function foo(x) is foo(x) if it's variable size and foo(&x) if it's fixed size, assuming you want to avoid that delete in C++)
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2019-09-26T17:15:52Z aeth: (assuming it's a small enough fixed size to not be heap allocated)
2019-09-26T17:16:05Z beach: pjb: That is what I recommend using in my document "Modular C", which contains recommendations on what to do when you are forced to use C for writing applications.
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2019-09-26T17:17:09Z beach: That document is of course mostly obsolete these days.  It was written before Java became widely used.
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2019-09-26T17:18:13Z aeth: I have never tried to do FP in C, although it's somewhat amusing to try to do so in C++ because they clearly want you to try in C++11/C++14/C++17 with things like lambda and transform_reduce (map reduce).
2019-09-26T17:22:22Z aeth: Stuff like map-into are, afaik, mostly impossible because the focus is on threading (more pmap than map) and because you usually get a different type out than you put in.
2019-09-26T17:24:15Z aeth: For a lot of reasons, there's a lot more thinking involved than to do the same task in CL, and that probably matters more than verbosity or lack of verbosity.
2019-09-26T17:31:12Z aeth: (And of course, everything has to be deleted.)
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2019-09-26T17:33:43Z LdBeth: You can use higher order macro for polymorphism
2019-09-26T17:33:56Z LdBeth: in higher order programming
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2019-09-26T17:36:15Z LdBeth: It is neat that they can share a similar interface with regular functions if properly designed
2019-09-26T17:37:39Z aeth: LdBeth: In C? But you'd basically have to build up an entire sublanguage, in hard-to-write library form.
2019-09-26T17:42:05Z LdBeth: aeth: it could be easier to use some existed language that generates C code
2019-09-26T17:46:24Z jackdaniel: newest C standard has generic functions (sadly realized with preprocessor macros), I have a generator written in ecl somewhere
2019-09-26T17:46:29Z jackdaniel: they are quite useful though
2019-09-26T17:47:22Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ecl/ecrepl/blob/master/c11-defgeneric.lisp
2019-09-26T17:47:23Z jackdaniel: here
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2019-09-26T18:02:24Z namosca: borodust: privet
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2019-09-26T18:02:34Z aeth: There's a new "compare a bunch of programming languages" website here https://www.programming-idioms.org/ talked about (announced on?) HN here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21080606
2019-09-26T18:02:50Z aeth: it's lacking Lisp for most entries right now
2019-09-26T18:03:21Z aeth: e.g. " Iterate over map keys and values
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2019-09-26T18:03:25Z aeth: is just maphash
2019-09-26T18:04:18Z aeth: (sorry, pasting that inserted a newline)
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2019-09-26T18:19:30Z klm2is: I'm in my REPL, I'm using CLOS. How would you go about changing a generic function to increase the number of arguments? Remove the existing methods somehow and call defgeneric again? or just fmakunbound?
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2019-09-26T18:20:57Z beach: It may depend on the implementation.  You can try calling defgeneric again.
2019-09-26T18:21:08Z beach: FMAKUNBOUND is always safe.
2019-09-26T18:21:36Z klm2is: thanks
2019-09-26T18:22:10Z klm2is: clhs says "If a defgeneric form is evaluated and some methods for that generic function have lambda lists that are not congruent with that given in the defgeneric form, an error is signaled."
2019-09-26T18:22:45Z beach: Yes, but your implementation may have a restart to fix things up for you.
2019-09-26T18:23:29Z beach: I recall having seen a "remove all the methods" restart in SBCL.
2019-09-26T18:24:35Z klm2is: Thanks, I think I need to use fmakunbound to be completely safe.
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2019-09-26T18:25:12Z klm2is: (using allegro cl - sorry)
2019-09-26T18:25:28Z asdf_asdf_asdf: What's mean "safe"?
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2019-09-26T18:26:10Z beach: It means to make sure it works in every Common Lisp implementation.
2019-09-26T18:26:16Z klm2is: There's just something odd going on with the warnings I'm getting in ACL after I've removed the relevant methods. It's allegro specific and I think it's against the rules to talk allegro in here.
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2019-09-26T18:27:14Z beach: It depends on the volume I guess.
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2019-09-26T18:27:59Z beach: klm2is: How do you remove the methods?
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2019-09-26T18:28:28Z klm2is: well like you said about SBCL, the implementation is providing this restart.
2019-09-26T18:28:42Z beach: Ah, I see.
2019-09-26T18:28:45Z asdf_asdf_asdf: beach; "safe" means it works in every implementation CL?
2019-09-26T18:28:46Z klm2is: so I choose that option, and then it still doesn't work the way I want it to.
2019-09-26T18:29:30Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: That is what I think klm2is meant in this particular case.  Don't generalize.
2019-09-26T18:30:09Z beach: klm2is: I guess you can loop over all methods, and call remove-method on each one.
2019-09-26T18:30:15Z asdf_asdf_asdf: beach. Thanks it's according to context.
2019-09-26T18:34:26Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: The Common Lisp HyperSpec glossary has an entry on "safe" that applies to certain situations.
2019-09-26T18:35:00Z beach: But I don't think that's what klm2is meant this time.
2019-09-26T18:35:44Z asdf_asdf_asdf: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#safe <--- this?
2019-09-26T18:35:51Z beach: Yes.
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2019-09-26T18:45:58Z klm2is: If you call defgeneric with the purpose of changing the arglist, it will work on some implementations if there is a restart, but it is not guaranteed to work. And in fact it is explicitly supposed to be an error.
2019-09-26T18:46:27Z klm2is: That's the gist of it
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2019-09-26T18:52:03Z borodust: hello namosca, whatsup?
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2019-09-26T19:36:46Z namosca: borodust: fine
2019-09-26T19:36:56Z namosca: borodust: how is russia?
2019-09-26T19:37:14Z Oladon_work: :O borodust is a shpeon?!
2019-09-26T19:37:35Z Oladon_work: shpion*
2019-09-26T19:37:40Z borodust: namosca: that's quite an offtopic, but it still is there beint itself ;p
2019-09-26T19:37:46Z borodust: *being
2019-09-26T19:37:59Z namosca: borodust: ochen hara cho
2019-09-26T19:38:05Z namosca: borodust: sorry if i spelt it wrong hehe
2019-09-26T19:38:11Z Oladon_work: lol
2019-09-26T19:38:33Z Oladon_work: borodust: ti tayni agent?
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2019-09-26T19:39:18Z borodust: i swear it wasn't me ;)
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2019-09-26T22:15:08Z gibsonf1: minion: registration, please?
2019-09-26T22:15:08Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=47be41c3 will be valid until 22:30 UTC.
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2019-09-26T22:22:52Z remexre: is there a good tut for using sbcl with appimage?
2019-09-26T22:23:11Z remexre: (rather, to package a binary compiled by sbcl as an appimage)
2019-09-26T22:24:00Z remexre: it looks like sbcl does enough
2019-09-26T22:24:12Z asdf_asdf_asdf: remexre. (apropos "vector)
2019-09-26T22:24:14Z remexre: has enough* hardcoded paths to make it tricky
2019-09-26T22:24:19Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (apropos "vector")
2019-09-26T22:24:41Z remexre: asdf_asdf_asdf: hm?
2019-09-26T22:24:42Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (apropos "callback")
2019-09-26T22:24:44Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Etc.
2019-09-26T22:25:44Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Later (describe #'func) or (describe 'another).
2019-09-26T22:26:11Z remexre: uh
2019-09-26T22:26:36Z remexre: I think you might be misunderstanding what I'm asking
2019-09-26T22:27:11Z asdf_asdf_asdf: remexre. OK ask question again, please.
2019-09-26T22:27:33Z remexre: I'm trying to package a binary produced by asdf:make (where the build-operation is "static-program-op") in an appimage
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2019-09-26T22:28:14Z remexre: and I'm wondering if there's an existing tutorial with best-practices, etc. to do so
2019-09-26T22:29:30Z asdf_asdf_asdf: http://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/ https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp/blob/master/docs/chapter24.md
2019-09-26T22:29:59Z asdf_asdf_asdf: https://letoverlambda.com/
2019-09-26T22:31:06Z remexre: asdf_asdf_asdf: neither of those seem relevant?
2019-09-26T22:32:17Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Sorry, about what this have be?
2019-09-26T22:32:29Z remexre: Appimage
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2019-09-26T22:32:50Z remexre: Packaging a binary produced by sbcl using appimage
2019-09-26T22:33:50Z asdf_asdf_asdf: https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos/2018-02-09 Ctrl+F and type appimage.
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2019-09-26T22:39:03Z remexre: asdf_asdf_asdf: Other than the dislike of appimage by nix people, I'm not sure what there was relevant -- was there something specific you wanted to indicate?
2019-09-26T22:40:45Z asdf_asdf_asdf: No, I don't know what them is. http://xelf.me/guide.html
2019-09-26T22:42:13Z asdf_asdf_asdf: what is written*
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2019-09-26T22:52:11Z remexre: asdf_asdf_asdf: huh???
2019-09-26T22:53:57Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Ask a question still/yet others users, please.
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2019-09-26T23:48:30Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: stop answering questions with nonsense.
2019-09-26T23:48:39Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: if you don't know, don't write anything.
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2019-09-26T23:52:01Z pjb: asdf_asdf_asdf: it is often better to use apropos with the second argument (like you should always use require with the second argument):   (apropos "VECTOR" "CL")
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2019-09-26T23:59:49Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Thanks. Thanks also for "second argument". I tried help user above.
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2019-09-27T00:03:24Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: Your attempts are more harmful than silence.
2019-09-27T00:04:03Z asdf_asdf_asdf: This is your opinion, not mine.
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2019-09-27T00:05:51Z Xach: You must adapt your opinion or you will not be welcome to discuss things here any more.
2019-09-27T00:09:09Z asdf_asdf_asdf: No. have the right to own things and ideas.
2019-09-27T00:09:14Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I have*
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2019-09-27T00:10:00Z Xach: You do not have the right to give harmful answers in this channel.
2019-09-27T00:10:12Z no-defun-allowed: https://xkcd.com/1357/
2019-09-27T00:12:28Z asdf_asdf_asdf: But this is only your subjective opinion. "You enter" confuse without answering.
2019-09-27T00:13:52Z no-defun-allowed: My subjective opinion is that the links you posted are barely relevant to the question(s) asked (something about appimages and dumping SBCL executables) and just confused people more.
2019-09-27T00:13:53Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: If I do not know, I do not answer, and do not confuse. You must do the same.
2019-09-27T00:14:25Z Xach: Your contributions make this channel worse and must change or you will not be allowed to make them any more.
2019-09-27T00:15:31Z asdf_asdf_asdf: No. You worse a channel, because nothing do answer. I tried, but wrong, but tried.
2019-09-27T00:15:58Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: That is bad behavior, don't do it any more.
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2019-09-27T00:16:32Z aeth: remexre: Considering AppImage is the #3 choice for such tools behind Snappy and Flatpak afaik, I'm not sure you'll find an answer because you're intersecting a niche with a niche.
2019-09-27T00:16:49Z aeth: (#3 choice for such tools, which are already niche)
2019-09-27T00:17:00Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Half a loaf is better than nothing.
2019-09-27T00:17:46Z aeth: Your answers weren't half a loaf, they were half of a cupcake.
2019-09-27T00:18:21Z Xach: Incorrect and irrelevant info is worse than no info.
2019-09-27T00:19:16Z aeth: remexre: I would personally just make a standalone all-in-one SBCL binary, although technically afaik you can include SBCL as a dependency with such tools so you don't need to do this.
2019-09-27T00:19:52Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Through conversation you can get something. I agree with (X/xach), but sometimes I tried help, then I answered.
2019-09-27T00:20:20Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: you will need much more practice and experience before you can offer valuable help, please be patient
2019-09-27T00:20:28Z aeth: remexre: The alternative would be to package SBCL as a dependency (which would require rebuilding SBCL from source? also assuming you can have a dependency that's not a .SO) and have a shell script as your entry point (assuming you can do this) that calls SBCL from the command line.
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2019-09-27T00:21:39Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Why do you want to gag me? When I will be can do answer...
2019-09-27T00:22:14Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: Because your answers are bad.
2019-09-27T00:23:26Z aeth: (my answer was kinda bad but I felt like someone had to provide something in vaguely the correct direction... at least the correct category)
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2019-09-27T00:25:00Z LdBeth: It's kinda sucks that many package managers assumes they're using GNU autotools all the time
2019-09-27T00:25:44Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK. Why You not write about technical issue, only about a fatuous remarks to users always/usually/often? Better would be that help users not spam as for You.
2019-09-27T00:27:06Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: I do not like to discuss non-Lisp things, but sometimes it must be done. Your behavior makes this channel worse and it cannot continue.
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2019-09-27T00:28:31Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK. Until tommorow. I think.
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2019-09-27T00:58:46Z LdBeth thinks WTF
2019-09-27T00:59:41Z LdBeth why tring to act like a turing test unqualified robot 
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2019-09-27T01:19:39Z remexre: ^^
2019-09-27T01:22:51Z remexre: aeth: Oh, wasn't aware of snappy nor flatpak; just got back to the PC now, I'll look into them
2019-09-27T01:24:07Z remexre: this is all b/c I'm trying to ship a binary to a box w/ ancient glibc and no lisp install... :(
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2019-09-27T02:19:07Z aeth: remexre: Snappy is kind of tied to Ubuntu, and Flatpak is kind of tied to Gnome, which is how both of them became more popular
2019-09-27T02:21:45Z aeth: hmm, well, actually there's a plasma-discover-flatpak
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2019-09-27T02:26:11Z aeth: (so it has some KDE integration)
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2019-09-27T02:38:20Z Josh_2: Did I just type that to myself
2019-09-27T02:38:23Z Josh_2: hmm
2019-09-27T02:44:42Z aeth: type what? I didn't see anything
2019-09-27T02:45:27Z Josh_2: That means I did hnnng
2019-09-27T02:45:44Z Josh_2: Okay so I will type again, no problems
2019-09-27T02:45:45Z aeth: Well, the authoritative source is https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp
2019-09-27T02:46:16Z aeth: If it's not there, then it never happened.
2019-09-27T02:46:24Z Josh_2: I have defined some classes but one of the slots when I go to create an instance is saying ((cl-configurator::parents ..)) instead of just :parents..
2019-09-27T02:46:32Z Josh_2: I don't know why it is doing this
2019-09-27T02:46:59Z Josh_2: O
2019-09-27T02:47:02Z Josh_2: I do know why
2019-09-27T02:47:08Z Josh_2: Missing a :
2019-09-27T02:47:11Z aeth: parents is a symbol in the package that is not exported.
2019-09-27T02:47:21Z aeth: ":parents" is a symbol in the keyword package
2019-09-27T02:47:32Z aeth: Yes, you're missing a :, thus making it be in that package
2019-09-27T02:47:33Z Josh_2: Man I like when I ask for some help and figure it out when I get done asking...
2019-09-27T02:47:41Z aeth: That often happens.
2019-09-27T02:47:41Z Josh_2: xD
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2019-09-27T02:48:17Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging
2019-09-27T02:48:48Z aeth: I should make a version of that that's a /dev/null chat client where someone can describe their problemss to /dev/null.
2019-09-27T02:48:56Z Josh_2: xD
2019-09-27T02:51:06Z aeth: Prototype: (with-open-file (output #P"/dev/null" :direction :output :if-exists :append) (write-line "Hello!" output) nil) ; the trailing nil is important so I don't accidentally return "Hello!" because it's critical that the message only goes to the intended recipient
2019-09-27T02:53:54Z remexre: aeth: Oh, hm, so if I'm deploying to an ancient Debian server, I probably /do/ want AppImage then?
2019-09-27T02:54:03Z remexre: my only familiarity with it comes from Neovim using it
2019-09-27T02:54:44Z aeth: remexre: depends on how ancient
2019-09-27T02:55:23Z aeth: remexre: it doesn't hurt to try it, though
2019-09-27T02:56:52Z aeth: https://github.com/AppImage/AppImageKit/wiki/Creating-AppImages
2019-09-27T02:57:01Z aeth: "Note that the binaries must not be compiled on newer distributions than the ones you are targeting."
2019-09-27T02:57:33Z remexre: Oh, so it would depend on glibc then... maybe if I built from alpine I could coerce it to be statically linked...
2019-09-27T02:57:52Z remexre: or really, maybe I should build sbcl on alpine and see if that makes statically linked programs
2019-09-27T02:57:54Z aeth: You could make a VM that matches the version of your target server
2019-09-27T02:58:14Z remexre: eh, I guess; VMs are a pain though
2019-09-27T03:06:25Z saturn2: you could just put the needed libraries somewhere and run /somewhere/libs/ld-linux.so.2 --library-path /somewhere/libs/ /somewhere/sbcl
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2019-09-27T03:18:46Z buffergn0me: Is my understanding that SLOT-BOUNDP is not portable when called on condition slots correct?
2019-09-27T03:19:37Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, you cannot portably use methods for standard-classes on condition classes.
2019-09-27T03:20:10Z buffergn0me: Ok. That leads to the next question: what do you think is the best way to tell whether a condition slot has been bound?
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2019-09-27T03:24:21Z buffergn0me: The only thing I can think of right now is to have a sentinel value as an initarg
2019-09-27T03:24:42Z stylewarning: I would avoid having slots that can’t be bound
2019-09-27T03:24:55Z stylewarning: that can be unbound*
2019-09-27T03:25:36Z stylewarning: Not only is it bad for the receiver of the condition object, it’s just error prone and an indicator of poor design
2019-09-27T03:26:51Z Bike: i suppose there's technically no way to check boundedness of a condition slot
2019-09-27T03:26:57Z Bike: i mean in practice, slot-boundp is going to work
2019-09-27T03:27:17Z buffergn0me: It certainly works on SBCL
2019-09-27T03:27:25Z aeth: Well, SBCL is usually the odd one out here
2019-09-27T03:27:28Z aeth: So if it works there...
2019-09-27T03:27:43Z aeth: s/here/with conditions/
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2019-09-27T03:27:55Z Bike: i don't knkow if any implementation has conditions has anything other than basicallys tandard objects
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2019-09-27T03:28:54Z buffergn0me: That should be a CDR document
2019-09-27T03:29:16Z Bike: does CDR allow documents that are single sentences?
2019-09-27T03:30:07Z stylewarning: Why should there be a CDR document on the representation of a condition? Just use a condition as a proxy for another object if you so please
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2019-09-27T03:30:46Z Bike: it's not really representation so much as "all this stuff that works on standard objects should work on conditions too"
2019-09-27T03:31:17Z buffergn0me: stylewarning: See https://ccrma.stanford.edu/courses/220b-winter-2005/HyperSpec/Issues/iss048-writeup.html
2019-09-27T03:31:55Z buffergn0me: stylewarning: It would be nice if that stuff about conforming code not being able to use regular CLOS methods could be amended in some kind of standards document
2019-09-27T03:32:00Z Bike: both the reasons given are irrelevant now
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2019-09-27T03:32:32Z Bike: huh, you used to be able to use defclass and stuff? neat
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2019-09-27T04:05:17Z lipskrim: re.
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2019-09-27T04:08:15Z fengshaun: is it possible to completely disable sbcl's optimizations? I have a function that takes 3 arguments and doesn't use one directly (it uses it in a let* binding), but it doesn't appear in local variables in slime and all other let* bindings that use it show up as unbound
2019-09-27T04:08:20Z fengshaun: no idea why this is happening
2019-09-27T04:09:22Z fengshaun: I'm using (declaim (optimize (debug 3)))
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2019-09-27T04:18:10Z fengshaun: can't seem to replicate it with a smaller example
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2019-09-27T04:24:13Z fengshaun: https://dpaste.de/xDph
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2019-09-27T04:32:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-09-27T04:32:44Z Josh_2: Mornin' beach
2019-09-27T04:33:22Z buffergn0me: fengshaun: That has nothing to do with declarations. You are using NTH-VALUE wrong
2019-09-27T04:33:42Z fengshaun: oh ._.
2019-09-27T04:34:38Z buffergn0me: fengshaun: Try (let ((val (gethash (get-key day) my-hash))) val)
2019-09-27T04:34:47Z fengshaun: gethash returns (values value present-p)
2019-09-27T04:34:53Z buffergn0me: fengshaun: That only gets the first value of gethash, the other one is discarded
2019-09-27T04:34:59Z fengshaun: oh
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2019-09-27T04:35:29Z buffergn0me: fengshaun: What you want is something like (let ((val (nth-value 1 (get-hash …)))) …)
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2019-09-27T04:35:43Z aeth: fengshaun: you need multiple-value-bind to bind multiple values
2019-09-27T04:35:52Z fengshaun: oh ok
2019-09-27T04:36:03Z fengshaun: when does the second+ values get discarded then?
2019-09-27T04:36:25Z aeth: all but one value will be discarded (usually all but the first, unless you use nth-value) unless you do multiple-value-something
2019-09-27T04:36:34Z aeth: like multiple-value-bind, multiple-value-call, multiple-value-list..
2019-09-27T04:37:21Z fengshaun: so I would have to immediately use multiple-value-* or nth-value, or all but first value is lost
2019-09-27T04:37:31Z fengshaun: no assignment, etc
2019-09-27T04:38:28Z aeth: actually
2019-09-27T04:39:14Z aeth: (setf (values x y z) (values 1 2 3)) ; this should work, as should calling a function that returns three values instead of directly saying (values 1 2 3)
2019-09-27T04:39:32Z aeth: Now why you can (values x y z) in SETF but not LET/LET*, that's a question for the CL standards committee.
2019-09-27T04:39:59Z fengshaun: CL has some weirdness to it
2019-09-27T04:40:09Z fengshaun: but it's fun regardless
2019-09-27T04:40:11Z fengshaun: thanks
2019-09-27T04:44:01Z fengshaun: looks like I can't modify a multiple-value-bind taken from gethash with setf/incf either
2019-09-27T04:45:16Z no-defun-allowed: No, those don't refer to the position in the hash table where the value was taken from.
2019-09-27T04:45:57Z no-defun-allowed: (incf (gethash key table) <optional default>) would work though.
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2019-09-27T04:46:15Z fengshaun: yea, directly using gethash works
2019-09-27T04:46:26Z fengshaun: seems to work now,
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2019-09-27T04:46:28Z fengshaun: thanks
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2019-09-27T04:46:56Z fengshaun: sometimes it feels like it's hard to reason about what's mutating and what's not
2019-09-27T04:47:07Z fengshaun: probably needs more time spent with CL
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2019-09-27T04:48:16Z no-defun-allowed: What languages are you familiar with? I could try an analogy.
2019-09-27T04:48:55Z fengshaun: C and python mostly, some haskell
2019-09-27T04:50:02Z no-defun-allowed: Well, in Python, it would be like `value, win = table[key]`.
2019-09-27T04:50:03Z no-defun-allowed: Changing value won't update the value in the table,
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2019-09-27T04:52:13Z fengshaun: makes sense, but reading documentation seems to be quite important. e.g. I expected maphash to return a new hash and not modify the existing one (like mapcar) or sort to also return a new list
2019-09-27T04:52:29Z fengshaun: but those are just famililar ideas which don't apply here
2019-09-27T04:52:42Z fengshaun: I've just been surprised quite a few times like that
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2019-09-27T04:55:34Z aeth: well, maphash is like map nil
2019-09-27T04:56:03Z aeth: it doesn't modify the existing hash table, either, but according to the standard, you are permitted to setf or remhash the current value while iterating
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2019-09-27T04:59:29Z aeth: This actually gives two strategies for the function you want. Just make a new hash table: (defun maphash* (function hash-table) (let ((h (make-hash-table))) (maphash (lambda (k v) (setf (gethash k h) (funcall function k v))) hash-table)))
2019-09-27T04:59:34Z aeth: Or actually modify a copy: (defun maphash* (function hash-table) (let ((h (copy-hash-table hash-table))) (maphash (lambda (k v) (setf (gethash k h) (funcall function k v))) h)))
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2019-09-27T05:00:17Z aeth: oh, both are incorrect, you want to return h at the end!
2019-09-27T05:01:39Z aeth: fengshaun: but for the most part, setting is done through SETF (or SETQ) and most other things don't modify things, with most of the rest fairly obvious, like map-into or fill, although not as obvious as in Scheme, where such things end in !
2019-09-27T05:01:55Z aeth: It doesn't hurt to check the spec first
2019-09-27T05:02:02Z aeth: (in case you don't know if it modifies or not)
2019-09-27T05:03:07Z fengshaun: makes sense
2019-09-27T05:03:41Z fengshaun: I still need to settle in and get familiar
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2019-09-27T05:07:07Z aeth: fengshaun: In CL, almost everything is a reference to something on the garbage collected heap (with rare exceptions, like (declare (dynamic-extent foo))), or if it fits within a machine word and is immutable (like 42 or 42.0f0 or #\c) it might be optimized away into just directly being stored/copied
2019-09-27T05:07:30Z aeth: Your experience with C probably makes you think that more is going on than there is.
2019-09-27T05:07:42Z fengshaun: probably
2019-09-27T05:07:55Z fengshaun: I'm more used to explicit references vs values etc
2019-09-27T05:08:15Z aeth: essentially, everything is a reference
2019-09-27T05:08:26Z fengshaun: stack vs heap is also a thing in my brain which wouldn't apply here
2019-09-27T05:08:31Z saturn2: the reason you can't assign multiple values to a variable is so they can be kept on the stack
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2019-09-27T05:10:12Z aeth: If you're doing (aref foo 42) you're going to get one of two things, you're going to get a reference to something else, like e.g. (list 1 2 3), or you're going to get some constant like "42" that is probably small enough to be optimized away into a value instead of a reference (but it's not just its size, it's also that it's immutable, you can't modify 42)
2019-09-27T05:11:06Z aeth: But you're not getting a reference to the position in the container, the spot of the 43nd element in the array foo, you're getting the reference to where (list 1 2 3) is located on the heap
2019-09-27T05:11:36Z aeth: So now there are two references to (list 1 2 3), in your local variable (or wherever else you did that access) and in the array foo
2019-09-27T05:12:37Z aeth: (let ((l (aref foo 42))) (setf l "Hello") l) ; this is going to return "Hello" but it's not going to impact the array foo, which is still going to hold (list 1 2 3)
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2019-09-27T05:13:38Z fengshaun: but then (setf (aref foo 42) "hello") does change the foo array, right?
2019-09-27T05:13:53Z aeth: correct, and if that was the only reference to (list 1 2 3) then that will be garbage collected at some future point
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2019-09-27T05:14:07Z aeth: and, this suggests that arrays (or lists/conses) are a good way to get what you probably wanted
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2019-09-27T05:15:03Z beach: fengshaun: Yes, but that is because the macro SETF changes it to some internal stuff like (aset foo 42 "hello").
2019-09-27T05:15:06Z aeth: (let ((l (aref foo 42))) (setf (aref l 0) "Hello") (aref l 0)) ; this returns "Hello, but now (aref foo 42) is the array (possibly of length 1) that holds "Hello"
2019-09-27T05:15:21Z aeth: s/"Hello,/"Hello",/
2019-09-27T05:15:24Z fengshaun: ohh setf has magic
2019-09-27T05:15:30Z beach: Yes.
2019-09-27T05:15:39Z fengshaun: now it makes sense
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2019-09-27T05:17:07Z fengshaun: (let ((l (aref foo 42))) (setf l "hello")) != (setf (aref foo 42) "hello")
2019-09-27T05:17:10Z aeth: My point with my second example, in case I was unclear, is that if you do want to have a "reference" of sorts stored in an a variable, then you add a layer of indirection with an array/vector (in CL, a vector is just a 1D array) or cons.
2019-09-27T05:17:25Z aeth: and yes
2019-09-27T05:17:27Z beach: fengshaun: Correct.
2019-09-27T05:18:28Z fengshaun: so if foo was a 2D array, then (setf l "hello") would replace the inner array with "hello"?
2019-09-27T05:18:49Z fengshaun: since I'd be getting a reference to the inner array
2019-09-27T05:18:51Z aeth: fengshaun: no, 2D arrays are set with (setf (aref foo x y) "Hello")
2019-09-27T05:19:00Z aeth: well, real 2D arrays
2019-09-27T05:19:06Z aeth: you'd just be wanting a 1D array in a 1D array
2019-09-27T05:19:16Z aeth: You can even make a 0-dimensional array like this: (make-array '() :inital-element 42) ; and now you have a convenient little container to play around with
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2019-09-27T05:19:46Z aeth: (let ((l (aref foo 42))) (setf (aref l) "Hello"))
2019-09-27T05:19:56Z aeth: Assuming that the 42nd element contains a 0D array
2019-09-27T05:20:08Z aeth: basically just a box
2019-09-27T05:20:41Z aeth: It's pretty uncommon, but if that's what you want...
2019-09-27T05:21:00Z fengshaun: just trying to understand
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2019-09-27T05:22:42Z fengshaun: so, with aref or gethash etc
2019-09-27T05:22:58Z fengshaun: how would one store a reference to a cell so it can be modified later?
2019-09-27T05:23:33Z beach: You can't.
2019-09-27T05:23:41Z beach: Places are not first-class objects in Common Lisp.
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2019-09-27T05:24:08Z aeth: fengshaun: the closest thing to a reference to a cell that can be modified later is a 0D array. Well, there are other close things, but a 0D array is the purest thing. But you still have to set it with (aref foo) instead of just foo
2019-09-27T05:24:32Z aeth: By "purest" I mean in that it can only ever by its nature hold one thing, not that it's purely functional (the whole point here is mutation)
2019-09-27T05:25:00Z fengshaun: alright
2019-09-27T05:25:01Z beach makes a mental not to use "place" as a counterexample to "everything is an object".
2019-09-27T05:25:27Z beach: s/not/note/
2019-09-27T05:25:30Z stylewarning: beach: are you including locatives as an Easter egg in Cleavir
2019-09-27T05:25:45Z fengshaun: aeth, beach: thanks
2019-09-27T05:25:50Z aeth: you're welcome
2019-09-27T05:25:51Z beach: stylewarning: Probably not.
2019-09-27T05:25:55Z saturn2: you can also make a reference to a place so it can be modified with (lambda (x) (setf place x))
2019-09-27T05:26:27Z fengshaun: how?
2019-09-27T05:26:33Z stylewarning: beach: It can be the secret level after you beat the final boss (NIL-element type arrays)
2019-09-27T05:26:59Z White_Flame: fengshaun: the most flexible way is to make a getter/setter pair of function objects, and store then in a struct or object
2019-09-27T05:27:18Z White_Flame: consider that a "cell" might not just be a single machine word somewhere
2019-09-27T05:27:43Z White_Flame: for instance, packed array elements, hash table entries (which have effects on its indexes & buckets), custom class storage, etc
2019-09-27T05:28:14Z beach: stylewarning: Hmm.
2019-09-27T05:28:18Z fengshaun: alright, I'll have to play around a bit more, but I do understand where the original issue was
2019-09-27T05:28:25Z fengshaun: thanks a lot!
2019-09-27T05:28:31Z fengshaun: time to pass out
2019-09-27T05:28:34Z White_Flame: but in the simple cases that I've used, I just created a cons cell to hold the value, and pass around reference to that cons cell.  (car x) reads that place, (setf (car x)) writes it, and it's the least overhead (at least in sbcl).  The reader/writer that just wraps car can be inlined
2019-09-27T05:28:45Z aeth: hmm... if you want to hold one thing there's a 0-dimensional array, and if you want to hold two things there's CONS. I wonder if there's something for three... not counting a 1D array that holds a length in its type like (simple-vector 3)
2019-09-27T05:29:21Z White_Flame: aeth: a cons took less memory footprint than a 0-dim array, which is why I took that route
2019-09-27T05:29:47Z fengshaun: what's a 0d array exactly
2019-09-27T05:29:47Z fengshaun: ?
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2019-09-27T05:30:03Z fengshaun: the unit type? '()
2019-09-27T05:30:18Z aeth: fengshaun: CL supports 0, 1, 2, 3, ... dimensional arrays. They're specified by dimensions like () (3) (1 2) (3 4 5) ...
2019-09-27T05:30:48Z aeth: So a 0 dimensional array is the array of size () which by its nature holds 1 element (probably because holding 0 is the only alternative that would make sense, and that would be useless)
2019-09-27T05:31:11Z fengshaun: and you make it with '()?
2019-09-27T05:31:25Z aeth: you make it with (make-array '())
2019-09-27T05:31:30Z fengshaun: oh
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2019-09-27T05:31:49Z fengshaun: thanks
2019-09-27T05:32:12Z stylewarning: aeth: my explanation for why a 0 dim array holds 1 elt is that the size of the array is the product of the dimensions. And the empty product (*) = 1
2019-09-27T05:32:25Z aeth: stylewarning: that's actually really cool
2019-09-27T05:32:52Z beach: stylewarning: That is very likely the good explanation.
2019-09-27T05:33:18Z White_Flame: zero dimensionality = a single place
2019-09-27T05:33:31Z White_Flame: not non-existence
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2019-09-27T05:33:47Z White_Flame: there's no axis on which to move
2019-09-27T05:34:04Z aeth: 0D arrays are basically a box to store values, 1D arrays are vectors, 2D arrays are essentially matrices except without a built-in matrix*...
2019-09-27T05:34:49Z aeth: I wonder what the 3D version of a matrix is in mathematics
2019-09-27T05:35:22Z White_Flame: still called a matrix, afaik
2019-09-27T05:37:31Z aeth: Oh, and there are lots of good reasons not to have a matrix* built-in even though 2D arrays are basically matrices. One, it's hard to implement an optimal one (burden on implementations). Two, it would probably encourage people to want to extend the numeric tower and *. Three, it would have to make CL "pick a side" as to whether its vectors are row vectors or column vectors!
2019-09-27T05:38:53Z ggole: You also want sparse, triangular, etc matrices
2019-09-27T05:39:10Z ggole: Should be a library thing
2019-09-27T05:39:48Z aeth: You do get some vector things for free, though... via the complex numbers. Just for vec2's of course. e.g. (abs #C(1 3))
2019-09-27T05:40:02Z stylewarning: aeth: tensors
2019-09-27T05:40:42Z aeth: It's kind of weird how arbitrary they stopped with the numeric tower, stopping at complex instead of having their natural extension, quaternions...
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2019-09-27T05:41:22Z stylewarning: aeth: But then no commutativity
2019-09-27T05:41:43Z stylewarning: and they probably want (= (* x y) (* y x))
2019-09-27T05:41:51Z aeth: a small price to pay for rotations...
2019-09-27T05:41:55Z stylewarning: (:
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2019-09-27T05:42:41Z stylewarning: aeth: but we get rotations! (with complex numbers)
2019-09-27T05:43:00Z stylewarning: don’t mind me, I’m just taking pot shots
2019-09-27T05:43:24Z aeth: clearly the best representation for quaternions would be a cons pair of complex numbers...
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2019-09-27T06:41:24Z mfiano: why stop at quaternions, when you can go to dual quaternions and also get translation and uniform scale in addition to rotation, and in half the storage as a matrix :)
2019-09-27T06:43:02Z aeth: mfiano: because the flamewar between the dual quaternion crowd and the octonion crowd is one of the most vicious on the Internet and will never be resolved!
2019-09-27T06:43:22Z mfiano: They are completely different. I don't even see a relation
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2019-09-27T06:44:15Z aeth: which one do you support?
2019-09-27T06:44:18Z aeth: in your language?
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2019-09-27T06:46:55Z aeth: anyway, I was joking
2019-09-27T06:46:57Z mfiano: Depends what kind of math I need. Again, they aren't even in the same ballpark. There was an early octonion based off of quaternions that isn't the same as the terminology of today if that's what you mean
2019-09-27T06:47:35Z mfiano: Ah
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2019-09-27T06:51:43Z mfiano: Also I was half joking when I said they can be used to represent all 3 transforms. While they certainly can, ultimately you'd want a matrix in most applications, especially when working with a GPU, and that requires some intensive operations involving converting to Plucker coordinates and Screw coordinates first.
2019-09-27T06:54:43Z Krystof: the Clifford algebra team mocks your restricted thinking
2019-09-27T06:55:04Z Krystof: (my very first student job was in a Physics lab where half the faculty were Clifford true believers)
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2019-09-27T07:16:32Z Shinmera: Xach: thanks for speaking up.
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2019-09-27T09:57:07Z pjb: Interesting paper: If What We Made Were Real (2017) [pdf] <http://ppig.org/sites/ppig.org/files/2017-PPIG-28th-basman.pdf>
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2019-09-27T10:22:20Z thijso: Has anyone ever done anything with GPG using GPGME in Lisp? I've got it loading in my REPL, and I can call some functions (like (gpgme:check-version) which gives "1.13.1"), but I'm lost on how to actually *do* anything with it. The manual is full of stuff, but doesn't really give any examples (let alone in Lisp). I'm an examples-learner. I need to see some examples! If anyone has any pointers, links, please
2019-09-27T10:22:26Z thijso: share. I'll be down the google-rabbit-hole for a while I guess...
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2019-09-27T10:35:56Z pjb: thijso: and what makes you think you know less than us about gpgme in lisp?
2019-09-27T10:36:03Z pjb: (ql:quickload :gpgme) -> ; Evaluation aborted on #<quicklisp-client:system-not-found #x302002A7BB3D>.
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2019-09-27T10:38:49Z thijso: nothing, but sometimes someone else has already walked down a path, so that's why I ask
2019-09-27T10:39:55Z thijso: I've found a github repo with examples in c
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2019-09-27T10:40:14Z thijso: But something in lisp would be better, of course
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2019-09-27T10:42:01Z pjb: thijso: so basically you have a CFFI problem?
2019-09-27T10:42:36Z _death: thijso: the README has some examples
2019-09-27T10:43:52Z thijso: No, I've got it working. I'm just looking for examples *how* to use it. GPGME is a little 'different', I guess. I've got it generating a key for me. So it's working. I just need to figure out exactly how to use it.
2019-09-27T10:44:31Z thijso: Yeah, _death, those don't actually seem to work for me. It looks like they assume a lot of pre-work has been done, like creating contexts, and generating keys and such.
2019-09-27T10:44:43Z pjb: thijso: now, if you had given this url https://github.com/gpg/gpgme/tree/master/lang/cl  give minutes ago, I wouldn't have spend that time finding it.  I don't have any time remaining to help you on this, sorry.
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2019-09-27T10:46:45Z thijso: Okay, so a very specific question: if I get back a #<foreign :POINTER-VOID 0x7f44d802e6c0> and I know that that points to a C structure, how do I get to the data inside?
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2019-09-27T10:47:35Z _death: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#defcstruct
2019-09-27T10:48:32Z thijso: Thanks, _death
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2019-09-27T11:48:08Z jmercouris: what is that channel for new users in Lisp called again?
2019-09-27T11:48:42Z no-defun-allowed: #clschool?
2019-09-27T11:48:46Z jmercouris: ah there we go
2019-09-27T11:48:52Z jmercouris: it went from noobs to school, thank you
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2019-09-27T12:01:01Z selwyn: Hello everyone
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2019-09-27T12:01:47Z selwyn: I am interested in using the System V shared memory API from lisp to communicate with another (non lisp) process
2019-09-27T12:02:16Z selwyn: has anyone had experience with this or made their own library to do this?
2019-09-27T12:02:31Z selwyn: i am wondering whether i need to roll out my own cffi-based solution to achieve this
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2019-09-27T12:12:49Z Shinmera: selwyn: using mmap would probably be more portable.
2019-09-27T12:17:05Z selwyn: i believe i need to expose some system calls like https://linux.die.net/man/3/shm_open and then use mmap with the file descriptor
2019-09-27T12:17:40Z Shinmera: If you have a common file you can just mmap the same file in both processes with sharing enabled.
2019-09-27T12:17:58Z Shinmera: The mmap library should offer portable access to all of those features.
2019-09-27T12:18:01Z selwyn: oops that is the posix api. something like https://linux.die.net/man/2/shmget
2019-09-27T12:18:05Z Shinmera: (on windows, too)
2019-09-27T12:18:08Z selwyn: shinmera: thanks will look into it
2019-09-27T12:18:47Z Shinmera: Patches to make it run without osicat are welcome
2019-09-27T12:20:01Z selwyn: so i can share memory between processes solely using mmap?
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2019-09-27T12:22:12Z Shinmera: Yes
2019-09-27T12:22:50Z Shinmera: if you're on Linux only and your other processes are forks you could even use anonymous maps.
2019-09-27T12:23:24Z selwyn: yes i see. why is osicat not desirable?
2019-09-27T12:23:50Z Shinmera: Because it needs to grovel, so you need a C compiler properly configured on your system.
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2019-09-27T12:26:05Z Shinmera: The alternative is tedious; grovelling manually on every platform combination you want to support and baking the constants into the source.
2019-09-27T12:26:17Z Shinmera: So I haven't done it yet.
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2019-09-27T12:41:27Z selwyn: it appears that the process in question can only use the system v shared memory api anyway
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2019-09-27T12:47:12Z dlowe: jmercouris: if you join #clnoobs you'll get a private message telling you to go to #clschool
2019-09-27T12:47:28Z dlowe: maybe it should just be a message to the whole channel so it gets seen
2019-09-27T12:50:18Z pjb: yes, that would be better.
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2019-09-27T15:06:29Z lxbarbosa: ansi common lisp is just superb. non verbose nor too concise and lots of eg
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2019-09-27T16:23:37Z Xach: thijso: what do you hope to do with gpg in lisp?
2019-09-27T16:24:16Z skidd0: is there a way to purge a package from my local quicklisp besides deleting the packages directory inside quicklisp/software/ ?
2019-09-27T16:26:04Z Xach: skidd0: yes
2019-09-27T16:26:19Z Xach: skidd0: (ql-dist:uninstall (ql-dist:release "name-of-thing")) is one way
2019-09-27T16:26:29Z Xach: skidd0: what prompts the desire to do so?
2019-09-27T16:27:10Z skidd0: I'm getting an error: "ALEXANDRIA" is already a nickname for "ALEXANDRIA.0.DEV"
2019-09-27T16:28:05Z Xach: Weird.
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2019-09-27T16:28:19Z skidd0: i did a grep for that 0.dev in my quicklisp dir to see if some other package had it included in irs src (a previous issue you all have helped me through)
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2019-09-27T16:28:27Z skidd0: only in the alexandria dir
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2019-09-27T16:31:52Z Bike: yeah that's the name alexandria uses for its package internally
2019-09-27T16:32:55Z Xach: Not any more.
2019-09-27T16:33:13Z skidd0: well, removing it seemed to fix it
2019-09-27T16:33:14Z Xach: Now the package is named "ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0"
2019-09-27T16:33:17Z skidd0: thanks guys
2019-09-27T16:33:25Z Xach: skidd0: do you have the quicklisp directory as a :tree for asdf or something?
2019-09-27T16:34:05Z skidd0: how can i determine this
2019-09-27T16:34:21Z skidd0: i have not done anthing special to quicklisp dist
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2019-09-27T16:35:09Z Xach: skidd0: Well, what sort of stuff did you do when you got the error about the nickname?
2019-09-27T16:35:31Z skidd0: i tried the uninstall you mentioned
2019-09-27T16:35:38Z skidd0: then reloaded swanks image
2019-09-27T16:35:47Z skidd0: that didn't seem to work so then i removed the dir
2019-09-27T16:35:52Z skidd0: turns out there were two dirs
2019-09-27T16:35:58Z Xach: That is not normally a problem
2019-09-27T16:35:59Z skidd0: a 2018 and a 2019 for alexandria
2019-09-27T16:36:11Z Xach: So I'm curious about any possible local configuration
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2019-09-27T16:36:31Z skidd0: then reloaded swank, then ql:quickload alexandria
2019-09-27T16:36:34Z skidd0: and then it worked
2019-09-27T16:37:01Z skidd0: but now i'm back into a compile-file-error with a package i'm trying to start
2019-09-27T16:37:10Z skidd0: but i think i can figure that out on my own
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2019-09-27T16:39:00Z Xach: I'm glad it's on to new and better propblems but I'm still a bit curious about the original problem. Oh well.
2019-09-27T16:39:05Z Xach: Problems, rather.
2019-09-27T16:39:37Z skidd0: well i don't think i've done anything special with my local config
2019-09-27T16:39:42Z Josh_2: I'm still having problems with my quicklisp xD
2019-09-27T16:39:56Z Josh_2: not finding my libraries :(
2019-09-27T16:40:10Z Josh_2: to fix another time as I'm off to play r6 with some friends
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2019-09-27T16:42:40Z Xach: R6RS?? How could you?
2019-09-27T16:42:58Z Xach: Josh_2: I hope someday our schedules meet, I would still like to help.
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2019-09-27T17:01:00Z jackdaniel: quick mop-powered way to check if all objects implement their protocol: http://hellsgate.pl/files/734cf57e-show-defined.png
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2019-09-27T17:18:10Z Oladon_work: Sigh, recruiters.
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2019-09-27T18:30:00Z thijso: Xach: I want to do asymmetric encryption
2019-09-27T18:30:40Z thijso: ironclad would be my first choice, but I'm unable to get it to compile cleanly on my target environment (android based on EQL5-android)
2019-09-27T18:31:09Z thijso: Well, unable to finish compiling at all. It just hangs indefinitely on src/ciphers/cast5
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2019-09-27T18:33:53Z thijso: I've given up on gpg, btw, looking into ironclad again. Not with a lot of success, though, for now...
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2019-09-27T18:52:40Z Josh_2: Xach well I'm about now if you are free?
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2019-09-27T19:14:41Z Xach: thijso: ah, ok. i have some code that verifies signatures but does not encrypt.
2019-09-27T19:15:46Z Xach: Josh_2: sure! hi! what are the symptoms?
2019-09-27T19:18:05Z Josh_2: Well I have an asd in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ but if I try to quickload the asd name, quicklisp does not find the system
2019-09-27T19:18:15Z Josh_2: I have to manually load the asd for it to work
2019-09-27T19:18:42Z Xach: Josh_2: Ok! That is not what should usually happen. Does this happen even after (ql:register-local-projects)?
2019-09-27T19:18:43Z thijso: Xach: good to know, but right now I need something else indeed... if you know how to debug code emitting by ECL let me know... ;)
2019-09-27T19:19:00Z Josh_2: Xach
2019-09-27T19:19:01Z Xach: thijso: sorry, i am almost exclusively sbcl
2019-09-27T19:19:30Z thijso: yeah, my foray into ECL land is because of android...
2019-09-27T19:19:34Z jackdaniel: thijso: if you build eql5-android by hand, you could precompile ironclad during cross-compilation
2019-09-27T19:19:47Z Josh_2: Xach, yes it still does that, also if I run (ql:list-local-projects) my asd is is listed
2019-09-27T19:19:49Z thijso: now if SBCL could build android apps, my troubles would be over... or maybe not ;)
2019-09-27T19:20:10Z jackdaniel: it might be that ironclad hangs on bytecodes compiler
2019-09-27T19:20:30Z thijso: jackdaniel: hmmm, interesting. Do you have more pointers on how to do that?
2019-09-27T19:20:37Z Xach: Josh_2: What is the name of your .asd file?
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2019-09-27T19:21:00Z Josh_2: configurator-asdf.asd
2019-09-27T19:21:13Z Xach: Josh_2: what is the name of the system in the (defsystem ...) form in the file?
2019-09-27T19:21:23Z Josh_2: "cl-configurator"
2019-09-27T19:21:35Z Xach: Josh_2: ok, that cannot work without work. the names must match.
2019-09-27T19:21:39Z Josh_2: o
2019-09-27T19:21:53Z Josh_2: so the asd and the defsystem have to have the same name, I didn't know that
2019-09-27T19:22:09Z Xach: Josh_2: yes, if you want the system to be found semiautomatically
2019-09-27T19:22:14Z Josh_2: O
2019-09-27T19:22:15Z jackdaniel: thijso: I'd write on ecl mailing list and ask
2019-09-27T19:22:18Z Josh_2: well I will change it
2019-09-27T19:22:23Z Xach: Josh_2: good luck!
2019-09-27T19:22:26Z jackdaniel: or I'd see how modules in contrib/ are built
2019-09-27T19:22:46Z Josh_2: So I shouldn't need to keep it in local-projects as I have a soft link to where I keep all my cl projects?
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2019-09-27T19:24:02Z Xach: Josh_2: i don't think so but one fix at a time!
2019-09-27T19:24:35Z thijso: thanks, jackdaniel, I'll check it out
2019-09-27T19:26:08Z Josh_2: Okay, so It's loading it automagically now :)
2019-09-27T19:26:24Z Josh_2: And It's loading it from #P"/home/josh/documents/lisp/programs/cl-configurator/" instead of from local-projects which is what I want
2019-09-27T19:26:32Z Xach: Yay!
2019-09-27T19:26:47Z Xach: i'm glad this dark episode is behind us.
2019-09-27T19:26:58Z Josh_2: Yes, It's nice when It's an easy solutions :)
2019-09-27T19:27:17Z ck_: how are you able to curb your enthusiasm so well?
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2019-09-27T19:27:47Z Josh_2: I didn't realize you have to have exact same system name to asd name :) but now I know!!
2019-09-27T19:27:55Z Josh_2: Ive been doing it wrong this whole time ahhaha
2019-09-27T19:28:35Z ck_: Xach: parallelization check?
2019-09-27T19:29:18Z Josh_2: Also, how do I get my library onto quicklisp when It's done?
2019-09-27T19:29:45Z Xach: Josh_2: a github issue is easiest for me. there's a blog post about it also
2019-09-27T19:29:51Z Josh_2: okay thanks :)
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2019-09-27T19:59:31Z skidd0: alright i've got another issue i think might have a newbie level answer.
2019-09-27T19:59:44Z skidd0: theres a system cl-snooze i'm using as a URL router
2019-09-27T20:00:00Z skidd0: and a 3rd party API i'm trying to integrate with
2019-09-27T20:00:37Z skidd0: the 3rd party sends a special http request (not get, or post, or options)
2019-09-27T20:01:07Z skidd0: in the past, when i needed to have an :options verb/type of http request, i had to edit the code for cl-snooze and add it
2019-09-27T20:01:11Z skidd0: see: https://github.com/joaotavora/snooze/issues/14
2019-09-27T20:01:29Z skidd0: this time, i'm trying to add that verb to my own code without needing to modify the dependancy
2019-09-27T20:02:21Z skidd0: how can I add the options verb in my own code?
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2019-09-27T20:03:16Z skidd0: i tried (defclass snooze-verbs:options (snooze-verbs:sending-verb) ())
2019-09-27T20:03:21Z skidd0: as in that github issue
2019-09-27T20:03:44Z skidd0: but Symbol "OPTIONS" not found in the SNOOZE-VERBS package.
2019-09-27T20:04:13Z skidd0: i'm thinking i could (in-package :snooze-verbs) (cefclass ..)
2019-09-27T20:04:25Z skidd0: but i have a gut feeling that's wrong
2019-09-27T20:04:29Z skidd0: or poor practice
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2019-09-27T20:18:17Z makomo: skidd0: how did it work before though? did you add the symbol to the package's export list before?
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2019-09-27T20:25:55Z skidd0: hmm, i can't find the editted version of snooze that i have in that GH issue
2019-09-27T20:26:01Z skidd0: so i'm not sure
2019-09-27T20:26:35Z skidd0: but non of the verbs are exported in snooze's package.lisp file
2019-09-27T20:27:49Z skidd0: oh hmm there's a defpackage inside snooze's common.lisp that exports the verbs
2019-09-27T20:28:01Z skidd0: it's possible i edited that and forgot to include it in my issue posting
2019-09-27T20:28:15Z skidd0: but again, i can't seem to find the edited code
2019-09-27T20:29:15Z skidd0: ah, found it in a backup. must've been on my old laptop. Yes, i did add the #:options symbol to the export list in the :snooze-verbs defpackage
2019-09-27T20:30:37Z skidd0: so is that a proper way to adjust the code of a dependancy? to make a copy of that system/library, edit it, then carry around the edited library with my library?
2019-09-27T20:31:15Z skidd0: or is there a way within my own code to 'import' a dependancy then add symbols to it (still within my own code files)
2019-09-27T20:32:59Z makomo: skidd0: right. yeah, you could do the latter, which is basically "monkey-patching" the library
2019-09-27T20:33:17Z skidd0: how do I do that?
2019-09-27T20:33:29Z makomo: use package functions such as EXPORT, etc. in order to add that symbol to the target package and export it
2019-09-27T20:34:09Z skidd0: while using an in-package to create that symbol and export it within the target package
2019-09-27T20:34:11Z skidd0: ?
2019-09-27T20:34:15Z makomo: then your defclass form should work from within any package, not just snooze-verbs (because of the explicit prefix)
2019-09-27T20:34:25Z makomo: you don't have to use in-package in this case
2019-09-27T20:34:56Z makomo: check whether the EXPORT function creates the symbol if it doesn't exist
2019-09-27T20:35:03Z makomo: if it doesn't, there's INTERN for that
2019-09-27T20:35:05Z makomo: clhs export
2019-09-27T20:35:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_export.htm
2019-09-27T20:35:07Z makomo: clhs intern
2019-09-27T20:35:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
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2019-09-27T20:36:44Z makomo: (EXPORT has an argument which tells it the package to export from, so you don't have to use IN-PACKAGE)
2019-09-27T20:37:08Z makomo: it might be a good idea to skim through 11.1.1
2019-09-27T20:37:10Z makomo: clhs 11.1.1
2019-09-27T20:37:10Z specbot: Introduction to Packages: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_aa.htm
2019-09-27T20:38:01Z skidd0: ah, thank you so much makomo
2019-09-27T20:38:54Z skidd0: i would like to read these, and i probably will, but theres some nagging anxiety that i should be focussed on 'work' while i'm on the clock
2019-09-27T20:38:54Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Intead export You can use (package1::func ...) - two colons.
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2019-09-27T20:39:18Z skidd0: true, but i thought explicit usage like that was discouraged
2019-09-27T20:39:20Z makomo: skidd0: i understand, which is why i used the word "skim" ;)
2019-09-27T20:39:56Z skidd0: how do contractors afford to improve their coding skills?
2019-09-27T20:40:06Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Why discouraged?
2019-09-27T20:40:15Z skidd0: maybe i'd best take that question to #programming
2019-09-27T20:40:30Z skidd0: asdf_asdf_asdf: not sure, something i remember reading elsewhere
2019-09-27T20:40:38Z makomo: snooze-verbs::options would be an option as well, but as you said, it might be less "clean"
2019-09-27T20:41:17Z makomo: or perhaps the internals of the library expect the symbols naming the various verbs to be external, but that's unlikely i think
2019-09-27T20:41:24Z makomo: always worth a quick test though
2019-09-27T20:41:41Z skidd0: it does expect them to be external, from my understanding
2019-09-27T20:41:59Z skidd0: https://github.com/joaotavora/snooze/blob/master/common.lisp
2019-09-27T20:42:09Z skidd0: line 10 starts the defpackage i was talking about
2019-09-27T20:42:18Z skidd0: where there's an :export of the various verbs
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2019-09-27T20:43:27Z makomo: the :export is there for the purposes of the snooze-verbs interface probably
2019-09-27T20:43:54Z makomo: i.e. for the user-facing api, to make it clear what is supposed to be used by the clients, etc.
2019-09-27T20:44:22Z makomo: whether they're actually expected to be exported by the internals is another matter. you'll have to look at the definition of DEFROUTE & co.
2019-09-27T20:47:37Z aeth: I find that people rarely export their types or classes, so while foo::bar is highly discouraged (and should never be done with a well-designed package API), it's often necessary
2019-09-27T20:48:10Z makomo: yeah, the symbols don't have to be exported https://github.com/joaotavora/snooze/blob/master/common.lisp#L185
2019-09-27T20:48:38Z makomo: skidd0: ↑
2019-09-27T20:50:08Z makomo: the library interns the symbol in the snooze-verbs package and then calls find-class to see whether it's a valid verb
2019-09-27T20:51:36Z skidd0: i don't see find-class
2019-09-27T20:51:50Z makomo: ctrl+f :). it's not directly within that function
2019-09-27T20:52:04Z skidd0: oh duh
2019-09-27T20:52:12Z skidd0: i hve so much to learn
2019-09-27T20:52:40Z makomo: so you might as well do (defclass snooze-verbs::options ...) i guess
2019-09-27T20:52:59Z skidd0: and then not even need to export it
2019-09-27T20:54:01Z makomo: the export won't really help anyone, because (1) no other user will actually use it, since it's your own monkey-patch to the library and (2) after you return to this code god knows when, "snooze-verbs:options" might make you think that it's actually part of the official library interface, rather than your custom addition
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2019-09-27T20:54:46Z makomo: so i don't really see a very good reason to export it from snooze-verbs
2019-09-27T20:54:50Z skidd0: right, similar reasoning to why one might not want to :use many dependancies
2019-09-27T20:55:11Z skidd0: and instead explicitly dependancy:symbol in source code
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2019-09-27T20:55:41Z makomo: yup
2019-09-27T20:56:35Z skidd0: i see. thanks again makomo
2019-09-27T20:56:59Z makomo: you're welcome :-)
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2019-09-27T20:59:22Z makomo: skidd0: if you find the time, it might be a good idea to submit a PR since the patch to add support for OPTIONS is trivial (and perhaps also update the issue with your findings for a non-library-source-modifying workaround until it is accepted) :)
2019-09-27T21:00:07Z skidd0: i am interested, but imposter syndrome has me doubting what PR i'd suggest
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2019-09-27T21:06:35Z makomo: skidd0: i've never used the library, but from what you said and from the little code i've read, it seems that just defining a new class (and exporting the symbol that names it) is enough?
2019-09-27T21:06:50Z skidd0: yes
2019-09-27T21:07:32Z skidd0: i was just wanting to see what other methods of 'monkey patching' existed, which you've elucidated for me
2019-09-27T21:07:51Z makomo: heh, there's actually one PR already, and one of the things it does is add a new method, just in the way we just discussed :) https://github.com/joaotavora/snooze/pull/3/files
2019-09-27T21:08:22Z makomo: it added "patch" but also refactored the verbs into their own file
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2019-09-27T21:10:08Z skidd0: i saw that, but didn't understand the significance. now, i have a better grasp of that significance
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2019-09-27T22:48:14Z lxbarbosa: compose function is actually rather clean and handy.. :D
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2019-09-28T03:55:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-28T05:20:47Z lavaflow: good morning
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2019-09-28T05:22:08Z beach: Hello lavaflow.
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2019-09-28T06:48:57Z makomo: morning
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2019-09-28T06:56:43Z beach: Hello makomo.
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2019-09-28T11:07:02Z afidegnum: hello, anyone care to through more light on Vectors and when do we use them?
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2019-09-28T11:09:50Z no-defun-allowed: You'd use a simple vector whenever you want a sequence with O(1) access time.
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2019-09-28T11:14:00Z afidegnum: still not clear
2019-09-28T11:15:17Z no-defun-allowed: What would you use instead of a vector?
2019-09-28T11:15:45Z no-defun-allowed: A list has O(n) access time, so for random access, a vector is much faster.
2019-09-28T11:16:10Z afidegnum: i m reading the differences between arrays, vectors, plis, alist, etc..
2019-09-28T11:16:27Z no-defun-allowed: A vector is just a one-dimensional array.
2019-09-28T11:16:41Z afidegnum: ok ok ok
2019-09-28T11:17:06Z no-defun-allowed: plists and alists are associative, mapping some key to a value, and vectors and lists are plain sequences.
2019-09-28T11:17:36Z asdf_asdf_asdf: https://www.samouczekprogramisty.pl/struktury-danych-lista-wiazana/
2019-09-28T11:17:37Z afidegnum: coming from other langauges, i m struggling to adjust here,
2019-09-28T11:17:59Z asdf_asdf_asdf: On the bottom.
2019-09-28T11:18:25Z no-defun-allowed: asdf_asdf_asdf: Do you expect everyone here to understand Polish and Java?
2019-09-28T11:19:03Z afidegnum: :D
2019-09-28T11:19:20Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK.Let it be.
2019-09-28T11:19:57Z no-defun-allowed: Vectors are probably the most common sequence type in other languages, but they usually support linked lists too.
2019-09-28T11:20:54Z afidegnum: yes. the syntax is kind of confusing me, but i m forcing to settle in
2019-09-28T11:21:42Z afidegnum: ok, let's start with array first,
2019-09-28T11:22:27Z afidegnum: (setf x (make-array '(3 3)  here, means we are seting a 3 list containing 3 elements, right ?
2019-09-28T11:23:55Z no-defun-allowed: The usual signature for a function that makes a sequence called <sequence> is (make-<sequence> <length> :initial-element <element>).
2019-09-28T11:24:17Z afidegnum: good
2019-09-28T11:24:17Z no-defun-allowed: (make-array '(3 3)) makes a two-dimensional, 3x3 array.
2019-09-28T11:24:32Z afidegnum: ok,
2019-09-28T11:24:37Z no-defun-allowed: So to create an array with just 3 elements, you want (make-array 3)
2019-09-28T11:27:18Z no-defun-allowed: asdf_asdf_asdf: Another difference between Java linked lists and Lisp linked lists is that the former has a container object over the conses, whereas Lisp has no container over them and you just manipulate conses.
2019-09-28T11:28:23Z no-defun-allowed: Typically, changing a Lisp list (and I say typically, there are legitimate reasons to mutate) produces a new list too, rather than changing the old list.
2019-09-28T11:28:28Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Thanks for figured out/described.
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2019-09-28T11:35:40Z afidegnum: (setq a "a")  is this ok for a vector ?
2019-09-28T11:36:44Z no-defun-allowed: You would be replacing the value bound to A, which would not affect the vector.
2019-09-28T11:37:12Z afidegnum: ?
2019-09-28T11:38:04Z no-defun-allowed: setf/setq doesn't affect the binding (unless you provide a place to setf -- actually, let's just stick to setq)...
2019-09-28T11:38:44Z afidegnum: can you assist in possibilites and examples of vectors?
2019-09-28T11:38:52Z no-defun-allowed: Try (let* ((a (make-array 3)) (b a)) (setq a "a") b)
2019-09-28T11:40:10Z no-defun-allowed: You'll see that the vector that A and B are bound to is still intact and unchanged, but only the binding for A changed.
2019-09-28T11:40:49Z afidegnum: #(0 0 0)
2019-09-28T11:41:35Z White_Flame: afidegnum: btw, lists, alists, and plists are the same basic datatype, just singly linked lists.  list = (1 2 3), a-list = ((key . val) (key . val)...), p-list = (key val key val key val...)
2019-09-28T11:42:04Z White_Flame: alist and plist are just a convention for holding key/val lists in a plain list
2019-09-28T11:42:11Z White_Flame: s/lists/pairs/
2019-09-28T11:42:48Z afidegnum: ok, let's say White_Flame ok, it's clearer
2019-09-28T11:42:58Z afidegnum: what about arrays and vectors?
2019-09-28T11:43:18Z White_Flame: a vector is a 1-dimensional array
2019-09-28T11:43:41Z White_Flame: arrays can have any number of dimensions, from 1 to irresponsibly-big
2019-09-28T11:43:48Z White_Flame: arrays can have any number of dimensions, from *0* to irresponsibly-big
2019-09-28T11:43:50Z afidegnum: i'm condering like a strict dictionry containing no list, is it correcet?
2019-09-28T11:44:05Z afidegnum: *correct?
2019-09-28T11:44:22Z White_Flame: CL's "dictionary" type is the hash-table
2019-09-28T11:45:03Z afidegnum: can you expand with your previous analogy? that's much clearer
2019-09-28T11:45:17Z afidegnum: the list, alist, plist thing :)
2019-09-28T11:45:39Z White_Flame: before hashtables existed, people stuffed key/value pairs in plain lists
2019-09-28T11:45:52Z afidegnum: ok
2019-09-28T11:45:59Z White_Flame: in the formats I exampled above
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2019-09-28T11:46:21Z White_Flame: the functions for accessing key/val pairs in alist or plist format are part of the common lisp standard
2019-09-28T11:46:35Z White_Flame: but they're just still plain lists
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2019-09-28T11:48:14Z afidegnum: ok
2019-09-28T11:48:52Z afidegnum: so how do we match a vector against a value?
2019-09-28T11:49:35Z White_Flame: lisp doesnt' have built-in match operations like prolog or erlang do
2019-09-28T11:50:05Z afidegnum: what about binding?
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2019-09-28T11:51:24Z random-nick: binding what?
2019-09-28T11:51:27Z White_Flame: LET does binding, function parameters are bindings, etc
2019-09-28T11:51:50Z Inline: you loop across the vector and across the input testing for equality in parallel
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2019-09-28T11:51:59Z White_Flame: lisp's dynamic bindings are fairly unique.  per-thread, scope-based bindings of otherwise "global" variables
2019-09-28T11:52:00Z Inline: i.e. element by element for example
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2019-09-28T11:52:49Z afidegnum: i think where the nuance persist is the difference between variable, symbol and vector
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2019-09-28T11:53:58Z afidegnum: why is my message blinking ?
2019-09-28T11:54:30Z White_Flame: that would be something local to your irc client
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2019-09-28T11:56:02Z White_Flame: what does "vector" seem to you, because it's quite a bit different than variables or source code symbols
2019-09-28T11:56:39Z White_Flame: and are quite common data structures across many languages
2019-09-28T11:57:03Z afidegnum: vectors reminds me of Geometry :D
2019-09-28T11:57:43Z White_Flame: vectors are not math constructs in CL, altough there are complex numbers which can sort of be 2-dimensional numbers in math
2019-09-28T11:58:07Z White_Flame: (which are a separate datatype from vector)
2019-09-28T11:58:28Z afidegnum: ok
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2019-09-28T12:01:29Z White_Flame: if you have a lot of fundamental questions about CL, then #clschool might be more appropriate, as here you'll get a lot of in-depth answers that assume you already know the rest of the language
2019-09-28T12:03:27Z afidegnum: thanks let me enroll :)
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2019-09-28T12:05:36Z afidegnum: ah, but wait, isn't vector the same as list ?
2019-09-28T12:05:51Z pjb: White_Flame: arrays and vectors are as mathematical in CL as numbers and any other lisp data structure.  Granted, CL arrays are a tad richer a data structure than usual mathematical vectors, matrices, etc (eg. adjustable, fill-pointers, etc), but as programming entities, they're perfectly defined mathematically.
2019-09-28T12:06:04Z pjb: We're talking formal system here…
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2019-09-28T12:06:21Z White_Flame: there's no mathematical operations on arrays themselves in CL
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2019-09-28T12:07:43Z pjb: White_Flame: rank, dimensions are mathematical operations applying on math arrays.  They existin in CL: array-dimensions, array-rank.
2019-09-28T12:08:24Z White_Flame: those are just readers
2019-09-28T12:08:50Z pjb: White_Flame: notice that mathematically, the operations depend on groups which are separate from the "data structure".
2019-09-28T12:09:09Z beach: afidegnum: No, a vector is a sequence of consecutive cells in memory, each cell being able to hold one object.
2019-09-28T12:09:27Z pjb: So I consider that we can accept that CL doesn't pre-define those operations, because this would mean choosing some specific group.  Several are possible.
2019-09-28T12:09:40Z afidegnum: no i mean List in Python
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2019-09-28T12:10:12Z beach: afidegnum: Whereas a list is a linked data structure, each element being a CONS, containing one cell for the element and one cell for pointing to the next CONS.
2019-09-28T12:10:14Z no-defun-allowed: A Python list is closer to a Lisp vector than a Lisp list.
2019-09-28T12:10:37Z afidegnum: ok
2019-09-28T12:10:54Z no-defun-allowed: But a Python list is implemented in a weird way I don't know the specifics of, probably closer to a Lisp list of "segments" which are Lisp vectors.
2019-09-28T12:10:54Z beach: afidegnum: But, as I recall, you can insert and delete elements from a Python list, but you can't (easily) from a Common Lisp vector.
2019-09-28T12:11:36Z pjb: White_Flame: for example, (ℤ,+) is implemented in CL with (CL:INTEGER CL:+), but not in C with (int +) which implements another group: (ℤ/2^p,+).
2019-09-28T12:11:53Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, you can write `del lst[n]` and that removes it from the list.
2019-09-28T12:11:56Z beach: afidegnum: Usually, what they call "list" in so-called scripting languages is a sequence that supports insert and delete, and it is usually implemented as some kind of tree structure.
2019-09-28T12:11:57Z g_o: Hey how do i make an alien routine that returns a c int? sbcl
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2019-09-28T12:12:51Z g_o: this is what i tried:
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2019-09-28T12:12:58Z g_o: >(define-alien-routine ckk
2019-09-28T12:12:58Z g_o: >  (int))
2019-09-28T12:12:58Z g_o:  
2019-09-28T12:12:58Z g_o:  
2019-09-28T12:13:00Z afidegnum: i see a bit clearer now :)
2019-09-28T12:13:11Z beach: g_o: Use a pastebin site please.
2019-09-28T12:13:24Z no-defun-allowed: (cffi:defcfun "name" :int (argument :argument-type) ...)
2019-09-28T12:14:42Z beach: g_o: In order of preference: 1. Don't use alien code.  2. Use CFFI.  3. [if you absolutely have to] use implementation-specific techniques.
2019-09-28T12:15:11Z g_o: beach: unfortunately, i have to use sb-alien =(
2019-09-28T12:15:21Z afidegnum: in a nutshell, a vector, if not a single unit, haave its elements in "[]" can be accessed using (aref [] position), am i correct ?
2019-09-28T12:15:50Z no-defun-allowed: For example: (cffi:defcfun "getpid" :int) defines GETPID, which returns your Lisp process's process ID.
2019-09-28T12:16:00Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, you can use AREF to index an array.
2019-09-28T12:16:22Z no-defun-allowed: g_o: Seriously? How come?
2019-09-28T12:16:24Z beach: afidegnum: What do you mean by "if not a single unit"?
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2019-09-28T12:17:32Z no-defun-allowed: If your vector has one element, then the only thing you should try on it is (aref <vector> 0)
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2019-09-28T12:17:48Z g_o: no-defun-allowed: im trying to work on an sb-alien issue, embarrassingly enough im starting to wrap my head around the internals, but never tried simply returning an int
2019-09-28T12:17:51Z afidegnum: ok
2019-09-28T12:17:59Z beach: afidegnum: And, yes, as no-defun-allowed says, you access the elements of a vector using AREF or some related operation.  Again, a vector is a sequence of consecutive cells in memory, and they are numbered from 0 up to length-1.
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2019-09-28T12:18:39Z beach: g_o: For SBCL-specific questions, people in #sbcl might know more.
2019-09-28T12:18:47Z afidegnum: ok
2019-09-28T12:19:04Z beach: afidegnum: What do you mean by "if not a single unit"?
2019-09-28T12:19:14Z afidegnum: i mean one element
2019-09-28T12:19:16Z no-defun-allowed: g_o: I see. I don't think I can help then, but I wish you the best of luck.
2019-09-28T12:19:31Z g_o: beach: it's true but it appears that sbcl just used cmucl's module; which supposedly hang around here (if they're still alive)
2019-09-28T12:19:32Z beach: afidegnum: Then you also use AREF.
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2019-09-28T12:19:55Z no-defun-allowed: Then you still use AREF, but the only valid index you can provide is 0.
2019-09-28T12:19:58Z g_o: no-defun-allowed: thanks
2019-09-28T12:20:52Z no-defun-allowed: g_o: This works, and is equivalent to my CFFI example: (sb-alien:define-alien-routine "getpid" sb-alien:int)
2019-09-28T12:20:53Z White_Flame: (aref #(:a :b :c :d) 2) => :C
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2019-09-28T12:21:41Z beach: afidegnum: I am asking what you mean by "if not a single unit", because that phrase suggests to me that you are still having problems understanding.  Why did you think a vector with a single element was some kind of special case?
2019-09-28T12:22:07Z White_Flame: (aref #(:a) 0) => :A
2019-09-28T12:22:33Z White_Flame: (length #(:a)) => 1
2019-09-28T12:22:36Z White_Flame: etc
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2019-09-28T12:23:53Z afidegnum:  (setq v (vector 3 4 5))     (aref v 0)
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2019-09-28T12:24:06Z afidegnum: 3
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2019-09-28T12:24:35Z White_Flame: which is exactly like v=[3,4,5],  v[0] in python
2019-09-28T12:24:50Z g_o: no-defun-allowed: ah, i did the noob too much paranthesis mistake. Thanks!
2019-09-28T12:24:50Z afidegnum: yes, that's what i was refering to
2019-09-28T12:25:50Z beach: afidegnum: So why did you think a vector with one element was an exceptional case?
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2019-09-28T12:26:52Z afidegnum: i misinterpreted it's 0(1) aspect
2019-09-28T12:27:05Z beach: Hmm.
2019-09-28T12:27:13Z afidegnum: )(n)
2019-09-28T12:27:17Z afidegnum: O(n)
2019-09-28T12:28:07Z White_Flame: big-O notions are pretty degenerate at a collection size of 1 though
2019-09-28T12:28:16Z beach: afidegnum: O(1) and O(n) is notation used in complexity theory.  The first one means that accessing an element takes constant time not matter how many elements there are, and the second means that accessing an element takes time proportional to the number of elements.
2019-09-28T12:29:37Z beach: afidegnum: Interestingly, then, is that accessing an element of a Common Lisp vector is O(1), but in a Python list, it is probably O(log n) or something like that, since in Python a list is not a consecutive sequence of elements.
2019-09-28T12:30:43Z beach: afidegnum: I strongly recommend you read up on things like this, or you run the risk of writing very inefficient code indeed, no matter what programming language you work in.
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2019-09-28T12:35:32Z no-defun-allowed: https://docs.python.org/3/faq/design.html#how-are-lists-implemented-in-cpython suggests they are implemented as adjustable vectors, but then inserting an element would have terrible performance.
2019-09-28T12:35:55Z beach: That would be even worse, then, yes.
2019-09-28T12:37:42Z beach: So that situation is very typical.  An inexperienced programmer uses some built-in collection type of some language, thinking that, because it is built-in, it is also fast.  Then they get terrible performance.
2019-09-28T12:37:52Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think a Python programmer can tell the difference between "O(log n) but slow" and "O(n) but slow" though.
2019-09-28T12:38:06Z beach: I think that's exactly my point.
2019-09-28T12:38:59Z no-defun-allowed: That wasn't what I was going for, just that the reference Python implementation is interpreted and pretty slowly interpreted at that.
2019-09-28T12:39:13Z beach: Ah, I see.  Sure.
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2019-09-28T12:40:49Z no-defun-allowed: But I really do remember Python lists being more complicated; if you did `[2] * 5000` it would be larger in memory than `[2 for _ in range(5000)]`.
2019-09-28T12:40:50Z afidegnum: ok
2019-09-28T12:41:09Z afidegnum: i need to understand that as well...
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2019-09-28T12:41:36Z no-defun-allowed: Now it's terribly late, I'll be back tommorow.
2019-09-28T12:41:36Z afidegnum: there is more to read :)
2019-09-28T12:42:00Z beach: 'night no-defun-allowed.
2019-09-28T12:43:19Z beach: afidegnum: Any introductory book on algorithms and data structures will explain the complexity of the operations of most common data structures.
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2019-09-28T13:01:47Z White_Flame: no-defun-allowed: the memory footprint probably expands becuase of intermediate garbage created
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2019-09-28T17:44:13Z gjvc: what's a good resource for learning about writing a language parsers in lisp?
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2019-09-28T17:47:50Z jackdaniel: check out esrap library
2019-09-28T17:48:08Z gjvc: thank you
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2019-09-28T17:50:26Z gjvc: hello
2019-09-28T17:50:32Z gjvc: oops, sorry
2019-09-28T17:52:47Z beach: gjvc: What kind of language do you need to parse?
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2019-09-28T17:58:44Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hi. Why function alien is undefined? I defined this function.
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2019-09-28T18:11:18Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Sorry. I forgot set "(sb-alien::load-shared-object "C:/Windows/System32/Gdi32.dll")".
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2019-09-28T20:46:31Z alandipert: i noticed that ((lambda () 'x)) works but (((lambda () (lambda () 'x)))) does not ("illegal function call"). why is that?
2019-09-28T20:47:56Z alandipert: oh nevermind i think i get it, (funcall ((lambda () (lambda () 'x)))) does the trick. the return value of a function, even if a function, is not a 'function designator' perhaps?
2019-09-28T20:48:23Z _death: a function is a function designator.. but it's not a lambda expression
2019-09-28T20:48:29Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (funcall (lambda () 'x))
2019-09-28T20:48:34Z _death: the special case needs a lambda expression in the operator position
2019-09-28T20:50:20Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (#|treat as instruction to call|#(funcall (lambda () 'x)))
2019-09-28T20:50:25Z _death: well, not only that.. only one level is considered
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2019-09-28T20:51:45Z _death: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.4
2019-09-28T20:51:45Z specbot: Lambda Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababd.htm
2019-09-28T20:52:23Z alandipert: got it, thank you
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2019-09-28T21:12:33Z grewal: Good morning, do you know of any cl implementations of python3? I've found clpython, but it says it only supports python2.
2019-09-28T21:19:33Z aeth: There probably isn't that much of a demand for that, although it would be entertaining to parse Python into an intermediate s-expression form that then could be used from CL in a more familiar way.
2019-09-28T21:19:50Z aeth: e.g. "x + y" => (+ x y) => actual python implementation
2019-09-28T21:21:59Z aeth: The problem with making a better Python implementation is that the main Python implementation is one of the slowest languages, so quite a few serious users use native libraries like Numpy, so you wouldn't be able to run a lot of Python code without also exposing the entire Python C API, which would probably force you into the inefficiencies that make Python's main implementation slow in the first place.
2019-09-28T21:22:32Z aeth: at least afaik
2019-09-28T21:23:15Z aeth: So python3-on-sbcl won't give you access to popular libraries that require running native C/C++/etc. code.
2019-09-28T21:25:34Z grewal: I see...
2019-09-28T21:25:38Z aeth: But, I think the more relevant factor is that it's not easy.
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2019-09-28T21:27:38Z grewal: Right, but perhaps forking clpython might be sufficient for me. I've landed a python job, and I miss having a lispy development environment
2019-09-28T21:31:11Z aeth: yeah, you could fork clpython (if it was even a complete Python 2 in the first place) and you could maybe even do what the Python core devs refused to do: have Python 2 and Python 3 running together in one runtime rather than in separate interpreters
2019-09-28T21:33:45Z aeth: Although maybe that's too difficult. I wonder if PyPy does this or if there was a reason why they don't?
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2019-09-28T22:13:15Z remexre: grewal: Another, much worse, thing you could do is running ABCL on GraalVM, which can run a bunch of languages
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2019-09-28T22:16:35Z no-defun-allowed: White_Flame: No, the size of the list created changes. I guess the more plausible explanation is that it resizes differently?
2019-09-28T22:17:18Z aeth: remexre: It would be better to make a multilanguage runtime running on top of the CL runtime imo. Better than either clpython or CL-on-someone-else's-runtime
2019-09-28T22:18:53Z remexre: aeth: probably true if all one needs is one language on the runtime; the project I'm trying is part Scala, part CL, part <custom language>
2019-09-28T22:19:34Z remexre: where the custom language is performance-sensitive enough to want optimizations on par with GraalVM's
2019-09-28T22:35:27Z aeth: This was on the front page of HN earlier today... on the second page now, though, and only two comments. "Coleslaw: Static Site Generator in Common Lisp" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21100128
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2019-09-29T03:48:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2019-09-29T03:49:56Z aeth: `(:morning ;good t "beach")
2019-09-29T03:50:01Z livoreno: hoi!
2019-09-29T03:50:02Z aeth: s/;good/:good/
2019-09-29T03:50:10Z livoreno: good commenting technique :P
2019-09-29T03:50:50Z aeth: or as a function call instead of a DSL, it might be (morning beach :good t)
2019-09-29T03:51:24Z aeth: of course, t is the default value for good so (morning beach) works, too
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2019-09-29T03:55:26Z jeosol: what about the "everyone"
2019-09-29T03:55:34Z jeosol: good morning
2019-09-29T03:56:47Z aeth: jeosol: (map nil #'morning everyone) ; assuming it's called for its side effect and not its return value
2019-09-29T03:58:00Z aeth: or (map nil (lambda (person) (morning person :good t)) everyone) if you want to be more explicit with the "good" value
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2019-09-29T03:58:26Z aeth: Although technically speaking, you want to also filter it so it doesn't include you since saying good morning to yourself isn't socially acceptable.
2019-09-29T03:58:27Z jeosol: aeth: cool
2019-09-29T03:58:29Z no-defun-allowed: But then you're saying good morning to each person individually, which is slow.
2019-09-29T03:58:50Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: eh, idc, sbcl optimizes it
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2019-09-29T03:59:12Z aeth: I write portable CL, but it doesn't have to be efficient everywhere
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2019-09-29T04:00:59Z no-defun-allowed: You can just use (morning everyone :good t) and a method on groups.
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2019-09-29T04:01:13Z no-defun-allowed: Then it will be O(log n) instead of O(n).
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2019-09-29T04:01:33Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: well, submit a pull request, then
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2019-09-29T04:02:47Z no-defun-allowed: Why should I? beach already has written that code, as he says "Good morning everyone", not "Good morning aeth", "Good morning aeti (the hypothetical user after aeth)", ...
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2019-09-29T08:59:47Z seok: I shouldn't have to worry about locks if only one thread is writing on a variable and other threads are only reading it right?
2019-09-29T08:59:53Z seok: with bordeaux-threads
2019-09-29T09:01:07Z beach: You probably don't have to worry about locks at all for reading and writing a variable.
2019-09-29T09:01:23Z seok: I've been using locks when
2019-09-29T09:01:36Z seok:  two or more threads are writing on a variable
2019-09-29T09:01:53Z seok: What do you mean?
2019-09-29T09:02:07Z beach: It is very likely the case that reading and writing a variable is already an atomic operation.
2019-09-29T09:02:23Z beach: A variable can not be partially read or partially written.
2019-09-29T09:02:40Z seok: Hm, why does cookbook tell us otherwise then?
2019-09-29T09:02:51Z beach: It does?
2019-09-29T09:02:59Z beach: Can you show me the reference?
2019-09-29T09:03:11Z seok: it has a bank account example
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2019-09-29T09:03:33Z seok: if 2 threads are adding balance to a variable, you will get unexpected results without locks
2019-09-29T09:03:34Z beach: Tell me what chapter and I'll go find my book.
2019-09-29T09:03:58Z seok: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/process.html#modify-a-shared-resource-from-multiple-threads
2019-09-29T09:04:07Z pjb: beach: I think it should be documented. Because at the level of the processor, it's quite possible that a write and a read in memory of values of 32-bit or 64-bit (or more) be intermixed, when the data bus is not as wide as the access.
2019-09-29T09:04:36Z pjb: beach: Not all processors ensure atomic read/write in that case.
2019-09-29T09:04:56Z pjb: beach: therefore it's up to the implementation to do or not do something about it and to document it.
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2019-09-29T09:05:16Z White_Flame: and while the pointer value being written into the variable might be atomic, if it's pointing to a composite thing, then there might be other mutatey things going on as well
2019-09-29T09:05:24Z pjb: seok: adding is not read or write.  it's read AND write.  Then you need to ensure the atomicity of the add operation!
2019-09-29T09:05:25Z saturn2: adding to a variable involves a read, an add, and a write
2019-09-29T09:05:31Z White_Flame: but if it's just a fixnum, you're probably okay
2019-09-29T09:05:34Z seok: Yeah
2019-09-29T09:05:58Z seok: So my initial question, if only one thread is writing and other threads are only reading, no locks are needed right?
2019-09-29T09:05:58Z beach: seok: If you need to both read and write it and make sure it is not modified in between, then you need locks.
2019-09-29T09:06:04Z beach: seok: But that is not what you said.
2019-09-29T09:06:27Z White_Flame: "need" and "right" are subjective to what the actual expectations are
2019-09-29T09:06:47Z White_Flame: do you want the readers to see all writes and not miss them in overwrites?  then use a queue
2019-09-29T09:07:30Z seok: I'm fine with reader threads reading pre-write values if write is not complete
2019-09-29T09:07:47Z White_Flame: but it's rarely the case that a single value is mutated completely different from anything else's context, so generally you'll find yourself with some sort of lock over multiple slots of something
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2019-09-29T09:21:20Z saturn2: also, i don't know if any CL compilers are actually smart enough, but the compiler might decide to optimize away some reads that aren't protected by locks
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2019-09-29T09:26:15Z beach: saturn2: Hmm.  When I contemplated that possibility in the past, I didn't think locks were an issue; only whether an external function is called in between two reads.
2019-09-29T09:35:28Z saturn2: yes, for now an probably for the forseeable future, but that's not really a guarantee
2019-09-29T09:35:58Z beach: Can you explain that?
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2019-09-29T09:38:36Z ggole: You can get visibility problems reading without a lock, even if the load itself is atomic
2019-09-29T09:39:15Z beach: What kind of "visibility problems"?
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2019-09-29T09:40:05Z ggole: Where you read part of something else and it isn't visible in the current thread yet (eg, you see a 'stale' value)
2019-09-29T09:40:38Z beach: I'm lost.
2019-09-29T09:40:58Z saturn2: if the compiler can tell that the function you called doesn't modify the variable you're reading, it's within its rights to do things like hoist reads out of loops
2019-09-29T09:41:51Z beach: saturn2: Sure, but can you explain what might change in the future that would make it no longer possible?
2019-09-29T09:42:24Z beach: saturn2: Actually, that is not true in the case of multiple threads, I think.
2019-09-29T09:43:15Z saturn2: some day someone might decide they want a CL compiler that's smart enough to do cross-function analysis like that, and there would be no rule against it
2019-09-29T09:43:19Z beach: Thread A can read a variable V and then call an external function that sets a variable W.
2019-09-29T09:43:37Z ggole: beach: if you construct an object (say, a cons) in one thread and read it in another, the contents of the object need to be up to date ('visible'). Loads do not ensure that.
2019-09-29T09:44:02Z ggole: (Either at the compiler or hardware level.)
2019-09-29T09:44:07Z beach: saturn2: A different thread can read variable W and then write variable V.
2019-09-29T09:44:37Z ggole: Locks provide that with barriers.
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2019-09-29T09:45:29Z beach: ggole: I see.
2019-09-29T09:45:59Z saturn2: yeah, what i'm really talking about is barriers, but bordeaux-threads doesn't provide any barrier primitives afaik
2019-09-29T09:46:20Z saturn2: so a lock is all you have
2019-09-29T09:47:47Z saturn2: and CL compilers probably do treat every function call as a barrier, but that's just contingent on how much effort has gone into CL optimization
2019-09-29T09:49:55Z ggole: I doubt there are worthwhile guarantees at all (maybe for a particular implementation).
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2019-09-29T09:53:02Z saturn2: just that locks without barriers would be completely useless and lots of things would break
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2019-09-29T13:09:49Z afidegnum: hello, pls i m in a tight corner.... https://dpaste.de/uUP5
2019-09-29T13:12:12Z asdf_asdf_asdf: afidegnum, You must coerce type to own type.
2019-09-29T13:13:02Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (coerce data1 'list)
2019-09-29T13:13:04Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: Lurk harder please.
2019-09-29T13:13:16Z beach: afidegnum: It looks like your LETs are malformed.
2019-09-29T13:13:45Z afidegnum: i have been trying various variations of let but no luck
2019-09-29T13:13:47Z beach: afidegnum: The syntax is (LET ((var1 val1) (var2 val2)...) forms)
2019-09-29T13:14:05Z beach: So if you have a single variable, it is (LET ((var val)) forms)
2019-09-29T13:14:22Z beach: Not (LET (var val) forms)
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2019-09-29T13:16:27Z beach: afidegnum: So when you write (LET (TB 'TABLE-NAME)...) that is the same as (LET ((TB NIL) (QOUTE TABLE-NAME)) ...
2019-09-29T13:16:32Z afidegnum: even with this, no luck https://dpaste.de/9LsF
2019-09-29T13:16:53Z beach: So you attempt to bind the variable QUOTE to the value of the variable TABLE-NAME.
2019-09-29T13:17:00Z afidegnum: so no quote ?
2019-09-29T13:17:18Z beach: afidegnum: Count the parentheses in my example and compare to yours.
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2019-09-29T13:17:45Z beach: afidegnum: Do you see the difference between (LET (VAR VAL) as you have written and (LET ((VAR VAL)) as I wrote.
2019-09-29T13:17:46Z beach: ?
2019-09-29T13:18:26Z beach: Hence the error message that the variable TABLE-NAME has no value, because, as you can see, you are using it without a quote.
2019-09-29T13:18:51Z afidegnum: ok let me try again
2019-09-29T13:19:09Z beach: Did you understand my explanation?
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2019-09-29T13:20:29Z beach: afidegnum: And when you said "even with this, no luck", did you notice that the error message was different?
2019-09-29T13:20:40Z afidegnum: i'm working on it
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2019-09-29T13:22:46Z beach: This seems to be Emacs Lisp, yes?
2019-09-29T13:23:02Z afidegnum: https://dpaste.de/owDG
2019-09-29T13:23:21Z afidegnum: yes
2019-09-29T13:23:22Z beach: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, and I don't understand the error message about the invalid function.
2019-09-29T13:23:33Z beach: You should ask in #emacs instead.
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2019-09-29T13:24:53Z beach: What do you expect (let ((tb 'table_name) col cols)...) to do?
2019-09-29T13:25:40Z beach: ... specifically the col cols part?
2019-09-29T13:25:53Z afidegnum: everything works, i still believe the issue is withe the let i wanted to print the pair ("table_name" "table_column")
2019-09-29T13:26:28Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Try. (assoc ... One bracket no two.
2019-09-29T13:26:42Z asdf_asdf_asdf: ((assoc... not.
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2019-09-29T13:27:03Z afidegnum: in fact since it's an elst, table_name and columns are adjacent fields.
2019-09-29T13:27:04Z afidegnum: ok
2019-09-29T13:27:25Z beach: afidegnum: I am asking again, what do you expect (let ((tb 'table_name) col cols) ...) to do?
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2019-09-29T13:27:46Z beach: afidegnum: What do you expect will happen to col and cols?
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2019-09-29T13:28:42Z afidegnum: this returned nil. https://dpaste.de/8WuC
2019-09-29T13:29:14Z afidegnum: i wanted to fetch values under cols and later get column_name
2019-09-29T13:29:47Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (let ((tb 'table_name))
2019-09-29T13:29:48Z asdf_asdf_asdf: no
2019-09-29T13:29:50Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (let ((tb 'table_name) col cols)
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2019-09-29T13:32:04Z beach: afidegnum: I have no idea what you mean, but when you write (let ((tb 'table_name) col cols) ...) you are binding col and cols both to NIL and then you do not use them in the ... body.
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2019-09-29T13:33:11Z afidegnum: i got it, my smartparens is messing up
2019-09-29T13:33:33Z beach: This stuff is so fundamental that you should probably take it to #clschool, though perhaps not since it is Emacs Lisp, and it belongs neither here nor there.
2019-09-29T13:34:39Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Figure out issue, because not see the problem.
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2019-09-29T13:36:39Z afidegnum: i got it to work in some way but only 1 values got printed... i see no table_name
2019-09-29T13:37:06Z afidegnum: https://dpaste.de/X4vy
2019-09-29T13:37:11Z beach: afidegnum: Write it in Common Lisp.
2019-09-29T13:37:59Z beach: afidegnum: with the [ and ], it is not valid Common Lisp.
2019-09-29T13:38:15Z beach: afidegnum: #lisp is dedicated to Common Lisp.
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2019-09-29T15:14:02Z emacsomancer: bea
2019-09-29T15:14:43Z emacsomancer: beach: what about ##lisp ?
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2019-09-29T15:17:50Z emacsomancer: or #lispcafe ?
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2019-09-29T15:19:25Z beach: Sure.  Forgot about ##lisp.
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2019-09-29T16:49:14Z lxbarbosa: hey, is it common to always use try/except in io actions?
2019-09-29T16:49:28Z lxbarbosa: kinda hard to know when to use try/except
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2019-09-29T16:52:07Z p_l: lxbarbosa: what try/except? (methinks it's not from common lisp)
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2019-09-29T16:52:25Z lxbarbosa: p_l: oops... wrong room haha
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2019-09-29T17:29:48Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hi. Why I get error? The value
2019-09-29T17:29:55Z asdf_asdf_asdf: How get this type?
2019-09-29T17:30:33Z p_l: maybe post the whole error?
2019-09-29T17:31:24Z ck_: me: (+ "a" 1)    sbcl: The value
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2019-09-29T17:32:07Z asdf_asdf_asdf: https://cpy.pt/ReEUz2yS
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2019-09-29T17:32:55Z beach: ck_: Heh!
2019-09-29T17:33:16Z p_l: you probably need to wrap it in a way that turns it from fixnum to alien-value
2019-09-29T17:33:31Z p_l: unfortunately I haven't used sb-alien, only cffi, so I can't help you there
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2019-09-29T17:57:16Z pjb: asdf_asdf_asdf: you need to read more than one line.
2019-09-29T17:57:50Z asdf_asdf_asdf: What's mean?
2019-09-29T17:58:16Z pjb: It means that the error message is displayed over 4 lines in this case.  It is not only "The value".
2019-09-29T17:59:03Z asdf_asdf_asdf: https://cpy.pt/c5AEDNNq Works, but I get "junks".
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2019-09-29T17:59:56Z asdf_asdf_asdf: After press "a", should be 0x41, after other key ...
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2019-09-29T18:01:22Z pjb: asdf_asdf_asdf: I don't know sbcl aliens.  You should ask in #sbcl.
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2019-09-29T18:42:15Z psych: hello
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2019-09-29T18:42:30Z psych: I'm new to LISP I have gone through the 'pencil paper' portion of the symbolic computation book
2019-09-29T18:42:42Z psych: I now have downloaded emacs(portacle) and have some questions
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2019-09-29T18:44:09Z ebrasca: psych: Hi
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2019-09-29T18:45:52Z psych: hi
2019-09-29T18:46:12Z stylewarning: psych: ask away
2019-09-29T18:46:22Z psych: When making a mistake on portacle
2019-09-29T18:46:26Z psych: how can I 'abort' the text
2019-09-29T18:46:36Z psych: in the book I'm reading it says it's common for command c or command g
2019-09-29T18:46:39Z psych: yet neither work
2019-09-29T18:46:45Z ebrasca: psych: control + g
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2019-09-29T18:47:04Z psych: control + g and then enter?
2019-09-29T18:47:25Z psych: now it brought me to a weird page
2019-09-29T18:47:35Z psych: https://www.amazon.com/Methods-Theoretical-Psychology-Bradford-Book/dp/0262112612
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2019-09-29T18:47:40Z psych: whoops
2019-09-29T18:48:32Z ebrasca: psych: random link of amazon , are you spamer?
2019-09-29T18:48:41Z psych: no that was an accident
2019-09-29T18:48:50Z psych: im trying to paste the stuff from the interpreter
2019-09-29T18:48:55Z psych: I guess you can't copy and paste it
2019-09-29T18:49:02Z stylewarning: ebrasca: do you mean when you have an error, and you have the list of options?
2019-09-29T18:49:29Z stylewarning: Press ‘a’ to abort that (when your cursor is inside that window)
2019-09-29T18:49:38Z ebrasca: psych: copy in emacs is M+w
2019-09-29T18:50:10Z ebrasca: psych: M-w
2019-09-29T18:50:19Z psych: What does that mean
2019-09-29T18:50:21Z psych: What's M?
2019-09-29T18:50:28Z psych: M on my keyboard?
2019-09-29T18:50:28Z ebrasca: psych: M for alt
2019-09-29T18:50:32Z psych: oh
2019-09-29T18:50:35Z p_l: psych: Meta key, in practice it will be Alt
2019-09-29T18:50:52Z psych: Nothing happened except printing a sigma
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2019-09-29T18:51:04Z p_l: psych: are you on mac?
2019-09-29T18:51:09Z psych: yes
2019-09-29T18:51:35Z stylewarning: Command-C and Command-V work on Mac.
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2019-09-29T18:51:54Z p_l: you can try to use menu "Edit" -> "Copy" etc.
2019-09-29T18:52:15Z psych: I'm not trying to copy
2019-09-29T18:52:25Z psych: In the book its talking about recovering from errors
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2019-09-29T18:52:41Z psych: the writer says to type control g to 'abort'
2019-09-29T18:52:45Z p_l: psych: yeah, that's just for you to be able to copy whatever you see
2019-09-29T18:52:50Z psych: so I'm tring to figure out which key is 'abort'
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2019-09-29T18:53:14Z p_l: what does Portacle show?
2019-09-29T18:53:41Z psych: command c and command v
2019-09-29T18:53:46Z psych: highlighted a portion of the text
2019-09-29T18:55:52Z p_l: let's go back to start: you mentioned trying to abort some computation, right?
2019-09-29T18:59:22Z psych: yes
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2019-09-29T19:04:40Z stylewarning: psych: when an error happens, you get a list of options. You can click on an option, you can type an option number, or if you’re just interested in getting out of the error, you can press a
2019-09-29T19:05:19Z psych: #<UNBOUND-VARIABLE {1003BCC053}>--------------------The object is a CONDITION of type UNBOUND-VARIABLE.NAME: DENOT-YET-LOADED: NIL
2019-09-29T19:05:24Z psych: Im trying to get out of this
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2019-09-29T19:05:30Z psych: and get back to the interpreter
2019-09-29T19:05:42Z stylewarning: psych: can you take a screenshot?
2019-09-29T19:06:27Z psych: i https://imgur.com/a/U00zBoO
2019-09-29T19:07:51Z stylewarning: Ok, that’s the inspector. You can press control-x k (enter) to kill that. The top window has the list of options. Put your cursor in the top window and press a, and it should disappear.
2019-09-29T19:08:09Z stylewarning: You can also click —more— and then click ABORT
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2019-09-29T19:09:50Z stylewarning: psych: this is definitely not the most user friendly experience at the beginning, but after a few days, it becomes second nature
2019-09-29T19:10:37Z psych: yes this is some horrendous UX lol
2019-09-29T19:10:48Z psych: gonna put LISP down for today and get back to it tomorrow
2019-09-29T19:10:58Z psych: thanks for the help though
2019-09-29T19:11:26Z stylewarning: psych: you might find this helpful: https://github.com/rigetti/qvm/blob/master/doc/editing-and-running.md#editing-code-with-emacs-and-slime
2019-09-29T19:12:06Z psych: thanks :)
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2019-09-29T19:15:17Z p_l: psych: it's a question of what one is used to :)
2019-09-29T19:16:23Z stylewarning: psych: I think it’s also maybe fair to add to that “and 99% of computer users are used to being able to copy and paste”
2019-09-29T19:16:45Z stylewarning: p_l **
2019-09-29T19:17:38Z p_l: stylewarning: unless they were iPad-raised ;) but yeah, that's why I suggested menu the first thing, because even for me combination of OSX+Emacs is sometimes incompatible in copy/paste
2019-09-29T19:18:14Z stylewarning: One day Lisp with garner enough popularity and attention that somebody will write a slick, open source IDE
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2019-09-29T19:18:35Z p_l: well, there are some alternatives available
2019-09-29T19:18:43Z p_l: I think we need to put them on, somewhere
2019-09-29T19:18:52Z p_l: ACLU website?
2019-09-29T19:19:03Z stylewarning: There are (big air quotes) Alternatives (TM)
2019-09-29T19:19:11Z p_l: (might have mixed up the acronym)
2019-09-29T19:19:31Z p_l: stylewarning: I heard people saying good things about whatever is done for Atom
2019-09-29T19:19:40Z p_l: even if it's much less than full SLIME
2019-09-29T19:19:45Z p_l: at least they reuse SWANK
2019-09-29T19:20:01Z stylewarning: True, some folks get by with it
2019-09-29T19:20:24Z stylewarning: But there’s no PyCharm or IntelliJ for Lisp ):
2019-09-29T19:21:43Z p_l: there was SWANK client for Eclipse
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2019-09-29T19:22:58Z stylewarning: There were the greatest IDEs ever in the past
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2019-09-29T20:15:09Z aeth: "Text Rendering Hates You" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21105625 https://gankra.github.io/blah/text-hates-you/
2019-09-29T20:15:18Z aeth: Might be more relevant in the CLIM channel if there is one, but I'm not there
2019-09-29T20:15:51Z aeth: some fun edge cases.
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2019-09-29T20:18:50Z aeth: stylewarning: re IDEs, that's one of the (secondary) reasons that I'm making a game engine. It might sound weird, but almost every game engine eventually has a built-in IDE (which I kind of hate, since I like using Emacs), so... in a roundabout way, it might be more effective to write an IDE by writing in the class of software that's commonly known as bloating into including one.
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2019-09-29T20:24:34Z aeth: And I guess it makes sense because no one wants to use a half-complete text editor and IDE (so toy editors never grow up)... unless it's built into something else.
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2019-09-29T20:48:02Z ebrasca: Hi , Hunchentoot load and start in mezzano but when I try to open one page it never load and don't give any error.
2019-09-29T20:48:11Z ebrasca: How I can debug someting like this?
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2019-09-29T20:55:43Z ebrasca: Ok , after very long wait it gives error.
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2019-09-29T21:14:12Z afidegnum: using cons seems not to work, how do i add the result of the loop into the list?
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2019-09-29T21:14:15Z afidegnum: https://dpaste.de/B4aM
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2019-09-29T21:14:49Z p_l: afidegnum: I recommend #emacs channel
2019-09-29T21:15:02Z p_l: not sure how elisp differs in this area
2019-09-29T21:15:08Z afidegnum: they snub me
2019-09-29T21:15:19Z p_l: welp
2019-09-29T21:16:01Z p_l: this channel might not be best option (a lot of us don't really touch elisp). Tried ##lisp or #lispcafe? Latter is mostly same people as in here, but they can't jump at you for elisp
2019-09-29T21:16:41Z asdf_asdf_asdf: afidegnum, how have be result?
2019-09-29T21:16:54Z p_l: if it was CL I'd swap "do" and "cons" for a :collecting
2019-09-29T21:17:18Z p_l: (loop for i across (cdr lp) :collect (cdr (assoc 'column_name i)))
2019-09-29T21:17:27Z fsmunoz: afidegnum: snub you? Generally elisp is well within the scope of #emacs...
2019-09-29T21:17:51Z fsmunoz: oh, no answers... that is also well within the scope of #emacs :D
2019-09-29T21:18:34Z afidegnum: fsmunoz: i posted other related question since more than 6 hours now went unanswered, but other had their questions answered.
2019-09-29T21:19:38Z fsmunoz: afidegnum: likely nobody had an answer for your specific doubt, don't take it personally
2019-09-29T21:19:55Z fsmunoz: I will give it a look
2019-09-29T21:20:25Z asdf_asdf_asdf: afidegnum. (coerce "txt" 'list)
2019-09-29T21:20:58Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (loop for i in (coerce "txt" 'list) ...
2019-09-29T21:21:04Z afidegnum: ok but that will print single list right? i wanted to have a collection of lists
2019-09-29T21:24:36Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (loop for x in (coerce "abcdefghi" 'list) for y in (coerce "123456789" 'list) collect (list (string x) (string y)))
2019-09-29T21:28:09Z afidegnum: ok
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2019-09-29T21:36:01Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (loop for x = (coerce "abcdefghi" 'list) then (setf x (cdr x)) while (not (eq x NIL)) collect x)
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2019-09-29T21:39:11Z afidegnum: thanks, it works, i m eliminating the nil output :)
2019-09-29T21:39:39Z asdf_asdf_asdf: You also can use mapcan instead mapcar.
2019-09-29T21:41:33Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (mapcan #'(lambda (x) (when (char= x #\a) (list x))) (list #\e #\a #\a #\f #\a)) ; => (#\a #\a #\a)
2019-09-29T21:42:03Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (when (char= x #\a) (list x))) (list #\e #\a #\a #\f #\a)) ; => (NIL (#\a) (#\a) NIL (#\a))
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2019-09-29T21:45:03Z asdf_asdf_asdf: afidegnum. What's is your solution?
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2019-09-29T22:01:29Z vms14: Do you use mclim? or did you installed it once?
2019-09-29T22:01:29Z minion: vms14, memo from beach: You should not mix quantities and units like that.  Use the quantities everywhere: resistance, tension, current.
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2019-09-29T22:02:32Z vms14: I had an error in netbsd because Mcclim didn't know where the fonts were
2019-09-29T22:02:47Z vms14: but I just solved because there was a restart to put the path
2019-09-29T22:03:01Z vms14: In linux you won't have such problem right?
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2019-09-29T22:04:11Z vms14: neither in mac? I mean, the user will be fine just using quicklisp to install mclim/beagle?
2019-09-29T22:04:55Z vms14: if the debugger appears users will die
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2019-09-29T22:06:20Z afidegnum: asdf_asdf_asdf: hold a sec, taking a shor nap
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2019-09-29T22:34:35Z ebrasca: vms14: I have used it in Mezzano OS and Gentoo.
2019-09-29T22:34:49Z vms14: ebrasca: so no troubles?
2019-09-29T22:35:49Z ebrasca: vms14: It is someting slow.
2019-09-29T22:37:12Z vms14: ugh
2019-09-29T22:37:23Z vms14: this is sad
2019-09-29T22:38:30Z vms14: ebrasca: you ended using another thing?
2019-09-29T22:38:39Z Xach: vms14: what's sad?
2019-09-29T22:39:00Z vms14: Xach: to hear that clim is slow
2019-09-29T22:39:11Z ebrasca: vms14: I am working on making Mezzano better.
2019-09-29T22:39:58Z ebrasca: vms14: McCLIM is fun
2019-09-29T22:40:18Z vms14: ebrasca: it seems
2019-09-29T22:40:31Z vms14: I've just made a hello world, it seems very complex
2019-09-29T22:40:55Z vms14: I know a bit of xlib and played with clx, but this is completely different
2019-09-29T22:41:05Z vms14: but yes, it seems to be fun
2019-09-29T22:41:26Z vms14: I'm reading a manual trying to understand what all this stuff is
2019-09-29T22:41:26Z vms14: xD
2019-09-29T22:42:22Z vms14: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/static/documents/mcclim.pdf
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2019-09-29T22:49:21Z afidegnum: asdf_asdf_asdf:  (loop for i across (cdr lp) collect (cdr (assoc 'column_name i)))
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2019-09-29T22:51:10Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK.
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2019-09-29T23:15:20Z remexre: If I want to embed a file's contents into a lisp image, is it better to do (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :execute) (read-my-file ...)) or #.(read-my-file ...)?
2019-09-29T23:20:28Z Xach: remexre: I don't think there's any need to do it with tricks. you can use normal functions to do it at runtime and it will be preserved when you save the image.
2019-09-29T23:20:53Z Xach: remexre: (defvar *my-file* (read-my-file ...)) or similar.
2019-09-29T23:20:58Z remexre: oh, neat
2019-09-29T23:21:41Z remexre: I'm still more used to thinking about staged computation, I guess
2019-09-29T23:24:04Z saturn2: you only need tricks if you want it to be incorporated into the .fasl
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2019-09-30T03:43:11Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2019-09-30T03:47:42Z ebrasca: beach: Hi!
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2019-09-30T04:12:20Z LdBeth: good eve
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2019-09-30T04:51:49Z beach: ebrasca: Are you saying McCLIM i slow on Mezzano?  I don't think McCLIM is particularly slow in itself.  Do you think it might have to do with the fact that CLIM uses a lot of generic functions?  Perhaps generic dispatch is not optimized in the Mezzano compiler?
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2019-09-30T04:52:28Z jeosol: good morning
2019-09-30T04:52:34Z beach: Hello jeosol.
2019-09-30T04:53:03Z jeosol: Doing great.
2019-09-30T04:53:25Z beach: Either way I think that it might be an over-generalization to say (as vms14 dis) that "clim is slow".
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2019-09-30T04:54:22Z beach: It sounds like what we used to hear (i.e. "Lisp is slow") from people who had no desire to try out Lisp, and who needed an excuse to justify avoiding it.
2019-09-30T04:55:12Z jeosol: CLOS question: is there a way to write a defgeneric that always takes an instance, but occasionally, I want to be able to call the function without arguments -- this case calls another defmethod with globally bound *object*.
2019-09-30T04:56:06Z jeosol: I had one method (defmethod func-name ((obj (eql nil))) ..) but that means I have to do (func-name nil)
2019-09-30T04:56:31Z beach: jeosol: No.  What you do in those cases is you define an ordinary function with an optional parameter, and then you call the generic function with the value of that parameter.
2019-09-30T04:56:47Z jeosol: beach: thanks for that
2019-09-30T04:57:29Z beach: Sure.  Pretty standard CLOS technique.
2019-09-30T04:57:50Z beach: In SICL, I do that for all the standard functions that take an optional environment parameter, for instance.
2019-09-30T04:58:49Z beach: They just trampoline to a generic function that has a required environment parameter.
2019-09-30T04:59:13Z beach: That way, I can specialize on the class of the optional value.
2019-09-30T04:59:24Z LdBeth: A common pattern witnessed
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2019-09-30T05:04:14Z jeosol: Sweet. made the change. Interface much simpler and cleaner.
2019-09-30T05:04:30Z beach: Great!
2019-09-30T05:07:03Z jeosol: Will have to reward parts of my functions to use that. So I reduce my need to type the arguments  when I am testing.
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2019-09-30T05:08:21Z jeosol: I read a copy of Object-Oriented Programming: The CLOS Perspective (by Andreas Paepcke). The application examples had some CLOS patterns. Anyone know of this book. Not as common as Sonja's
2019-09-30T05:08:47Z beach: I think I have it somewhere on my shelves.
2019-09-30T05:09:36Z jeosol: It has black cover
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2019-09-30T05:11:58Z beach: Hmm, maybe not.  I can't find it right now.
2019-09-30T05:12:05Z beach: I could have lent it to someone.
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2019-09-30T05:12:21Z LdBeth: It’s a series of articles contributed by multiple authors
2019-09-30T05:12:52Z beach: Doesn't ring a bell.  Maybe I am confusing it with a French book "Objectif: CLOS".
2019-09-30T05:13:35Z jeosol: That's right LdBeth
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2019-09-30T05:15:09Z beach: I didn't really "get" CLOS until I read the CLIM specification.
2019-09-30T05:15:10Z jeosol: Chapter 1: An Introduction to CLOS by Linda G. DeMichiel; Chapter 2: CLOS in Context: The Shape of the Design Space by Daniel G. Bobrow, Richard P. Gabriel, and Jon L. White
2019-09-30T05:15:46Z beach: Experienced people.
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2019-09-30T05:17:04Z jeosol: Chapter 3: User-Level Language Crafting: Introducing the CLOS Metaobject Protocol by Andreas Paepcke. Chapter 4: Metaobject Protocols: Why We Want Them and What Else They Can Do by Gregor Kiczales, J. Michaeal Ashley ... Bobrow
2019-09-30T05:17:32Z beach: I don't think I have read it, so I probably don't own it.  I should order a copy.
2019-09-30T05:17:58Z jeosol: I haven't read everything, but Chapter 1 and Sonja's book read that a few times
2019-09-30T05:19:01Z jeosol: Chapter 5: Metaobject Programming in CLOS by Guiseppe Attardi; Chapter 6: The Silica Window System: The Metalevel Approach Applied More Broadly by Ramana Rao
2019-09-30T05:19:59Z jeosol: A section "COMPARISONS WITH OTHER LANGUAGES" compares CLOS and C++, CLOS, Eiffel, and Sather, CLOS and Smalltalk
2019-09-30T05:23:09Z jeosol: beach: What is SICL relationship to SBCL (or other CLs). You must get this question a lot I guess.
2019-09-30T05:23:50Z LdBeth: It’s currently implemented and developed using SBCL
2019-09-30T05:23:52Z jeosol: Maybe you have a link
2019-09-30T05:23:57Z jeosol: I see.
2019-09-30T05:24:30Z scymtym: beach: another explanation for McCLIM being slow (presumably on Mezzano) could be the use of the render backend which does all the drawing itself. i have prototypical changes that speed up backends based on this machinery significantly
2019-09-30T05:26:48Z LdBeth: Is drawing considered slow so it’s better updated in batch?
2019-09-30T05:27:19Z beach: scymtym: Ah, yes, I see.
2019-09-30T05:27:41Z beach: minion: Please tell jeosol about SICL.
2019-09-30T05:27:41Z minion: jeosol: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2019-09-30T05:28:28Z beach: jeosol: It doesn't exist yet, so don't attempt to install it.
2019-09-30T05:29:24Z jeosol: beach: why is "(perhaps futile)" there. Is this related to the amount of work (man-years) required?
2019-09-30T05:31:36Z LdBeth: Maybe technology changes and people don’t use computers anymore:)
2019-09-30T05:31:46Z beach: jeosol: Yes.  But I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
2019-09-30T05:32:20Z beach: jeosol: A lot of good stuff has already come out of the project, so I am very pleased.
2019-09-30T05:32:47Z beach: jeosol: We extracted the reader as Eclector, that scymtym is now maintaining.
2019-09-30T05:33:09Z beach: jeosol: We are working on a general environment library called Trucler, with heisig.
2019-09-30T05:34:06Z beach: jeosol: We have published around 10 papers on improved implementation and bootstrapping techniques the past 5 years.
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2019-09-30T05:34:37Z jeosol: Nice. So you have some listings of these different components. I think the effort is nice, anything to improve CL. I get asked why I use CL, most of my colleagues use Python,
2019-09-30T05:34:41Z beach: jeosol: The "Concrete Syntax Tree" library has also been extracted.  It is used for source tracking.
2019-09-30T05:34:51Z jeosol: that's very nice. 10 papers.
2019-09-30T05:35:45Z jeosol: Are improvements planned in the OOP area or will be mostly CLOS as is?
2019-09-30T05:35:58Z beach: http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-specification.pdf is perhaps not entirely up to date, but you will get a good idea.
2019-09-30T05:36:16Z beach: jeosol: It's a new implementation of the CLOS MOP.
2019-09-30T05:36:38Z beach: I am not planning any changes to the language.
2019-09-30T05:36:42Z jeosol: It has a chapter: object system
2019-09-30T05:37:41Z beach: Sure.
2019-09-30T05:38:35Z LdBeth: jeosol: there’s a implementation of Telos in CL
2019-09-30T05:38:35Z beach: SICL is simpler than other systems, because I can define things like (defclass t () () (:metaclass built-in-class))
2019-09-30T05:38:38Z LdBeth: (The EuLisp Object System)
2019-09-30T05:38:49Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, that details how SICL implements the MOP, which is different to most implementations which borrow Portable..Common LOOPS (was it?), and one of those papers describes how exactly the implementation differs from the usual techniques.
2019-09-30T05:40:23Z LdBeth: Basically you don’t have to struggle in the hairiness of bootstrapping
2019-09-30T05:41:03Z beach: jeosol: If you are really interested, I am often doing a lot of ranting in the #sicl channel.
2019-09-30T05:41:17Z jeosol: of course
2019-09-30T05:41:29Z jeosol: I am browsing through the linked pdf
2019-09-30T05:42:20Z beach: LdBeth: That's not quite true.  The code itself is simpler and more straightforward, but I have had to invent an entirely new bootstrapping technique which was not necessarily easy to do.
2019-09-30T05:42:31Z jeosol: I am want to improve my skills. I want to understand things a bit deeper and improve abstraction of the code
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2019-09-30T05:46:35Z LdBeth: beach: where can I find the latest version of the paper “Bootstrapping Common Lisp”?
2019-09-30T05:48:03Z beach: Not sure it's the absolute latest: http://metamodular.com/SICL/bootstrapping.pdf
2019-09-30T05:49:06Z LdBeth: At least newer than the version I kept in my computer
2019-09-30T05:50:28Z LdBeth: 2018 June 25
2019-09-30T05:50:38Z beach: OK.
2019-09-30T05:51:06Z jeosol: beach:  sicp-spec document is detailed. Just skimmed through it. I am imagine speed and efficiency are part of your design considerations.
2019-09-30T05:51:52Z beach: jeosol: Absolutely.  But simplicity, maintainability, and debuggability are even more important.
2019-09-30T05:52:12Z beach: jeosol: I try not to micro-optimize from the beginning.
2019-09-30T05:52:38Z beach: If I had done that, I would have used a lot fewer generic function, since generic dispatch is traditionally not that fast.
2019-09-30T05:52:57Z beach: Instead, I bet that I could improve generic dispatch, which I did.
2019-09-30T05:54:21Z jeosol: beach: I think the layered approach is nice and that other CL implementations can reuse layers to fill gaps or replace systems in the implementations
2019-09-30T05:54:24Z beach: And of course the compiler (based on Cleavir) does things like type inference, inlining, etc.
2019-09-30T05:54:46Z beach: jeosol: That was the original idea, but it is looking harder to do over time.
2019-09-30T05:54:47Z jeosol: type inference as in checking?
2019-09-30T05:54:55Z beach: No, inference.
2019-09-30T05:55:06Z jeosol: ok
2019-09-30T05:55:37Z beach: It is a standard technique in functional langauges such as ML and Haskell, and the SBCL compiler does it.
2019-09-30T05:55:52Z beach: We do it on the intermediate representation.
2019-09-30T05:56:47Z LdBeth: Typed IR
2019-09-30T05:57:46Z jeosol: Another aspect, I'd be interested to discuss, may be later, it large code/module organization. In a chat with Fare in the past, I started using :class :package-inferred-system in my defsystems, a bit more verbose but it did help my code organization, but mostly compilation
2019-09-30T05:58:10Z jeosol: time savings
2019-09-30T05:59:34Z jeosol: sometimes, SBCL hangs, I have to restart. I think I could improve my dependencies and layering a bit more - perhaps time to read about asdf again
2019-09-30T06:00:22Z beach: I don't use package-inferred systems.  I don't think I have understood the main advantage.
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2019-09-30T06:05:59Z jeosol: I am not an expert anyway. At the time, I was trying to reduce dependency between my modules, and Fare suggested it.
2019-09-30T06:06:23Z jeosol: I think the SICL effort is very good. You have enough bodies I hope
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2019-09-30T06:07:37Z beach: jeosol: Yes, and very good ones too: Bike, heisig, scymtym, etc.
2019-09-30T06:08:20Z beach: Knowledgeable is more important than raw numbers.
2019-09-30T06:08:31Z jeosol: very nice. I bet I can learn a thing or too from the code design and patterns.
2019-09-30T06:08:33Z jeosol: Yes, I agree
2019-09-30T06:09:06Z beach: Sure, if you have any questions, don't hesitate.  Preferably in #sicl then.
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2019-09-30T06:11:49Z jeosol: I meant I may have to look at the codes to see code patterns and styles. lately, I am trying to reduce computational resources required for one app I was working on. Made some slots use :allocation :class, and others. Interested in other tricks
2019-09-30T06:12:06Z beach: OK.
2019-09-30T06:13:28Z jeosol: If I look at the code and the document, I will get ideas. I have mostly focused on the application but need to improve efficiency.
2019-09-30T06:14:11Z beach: I see.
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2019-09-30T07:15:02Z jprajzne: https://www.redhat.com/en/command-line-heroes/season-3/talking-to-machines - lisp and ai
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2019-09-30T08:01:17Z beach: jprajzne: What prompted you to share that link with us?
2019-09-30T08:02:35Z jprajzne: beach: just thought it's relevant and also i'd like to hear what you think
2019-09-30T08:02:53Z no-defun-allowed: It had "LISP" in it. Maybe it's because I'm not a podcast person, but I just read the transcript and lost interest.
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2019-09-30T08:03:15Z no-defun-allowed: (Though, if Symbolics was "Symbolix" as the transcript called it, they could have survived through the 90s!)
2019-09-30T08:03:27Z beach: I added "a library for text shaping" as a project to this page: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
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2019-09-30T08:04:42Z jprajzne: no-defun-allowed: i actually listened to it
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2019-09-30T08:05:40Z jprajzne: the reason why i'd like to hear your opinion on this episode is that sometimes, there're inaccuracies in why/how/what happened
2019-09-30T08:06:09Z no-defun-allowed: I stumbled on this blog post I think is relevant to text rendering, called "Text Rendering Hates You": https://gankra.github.io/blah/text-hates-you/
2019-09-30T08:06:58Z White_Flame: and Time hates you even more
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2019-09-30T08:11:05Z White_Flame: jprajzne: I skimmed through the transcript, and it doesn't really seem in-depth enough to try to pick out inaccuracies
2019-09-30T08:11:28Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Yes, very appropriate.
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2019-09-30T08:28:26Z Shinmera: At least one more part of the text equation is on my near-future todo, namely the layouting part
2019-09-30T08:28:54Z Shinmera: that is, relying on an external system to provide metric information.
2019-09-30T08:29:19Z Shinmera: Not sure if I'll ever attempt a shaping engine.
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2019-09-30T08:31:47Z jackdaniel: n.b breaking text into lines is implemented in mcclim utils (it is an utility which does not depend on clim itself)
2019-09-30T08:32:05Z Shinmera: I already have UAX-14 for that.
2019-09-30T08:32:08Z jackdaniel: the only missing push would be implementing minimum-raggedness strategy
2019-09-30T08:32:41Z Shinmera: But by layouting I mean more than just line breaking. Meaning bidi, verticality, etc.
2019-09-30T08:32:45Z jackdaniel: uax only presents you with break opportunities, you still need to implement the actual breaking
2019-09-30T08:32:50Z Shinmera: Yes.
2019-09-30T08:34:47Z jackdaniel: so, this utility accepts arbitrary predicate for break opportunities but I gather it may be more enjoyable to implement things from scratch
2019-09-30T08:35:21Z Shinmera: Where is it located in CLIM?
2019-09-30T08:35:46Z jackdaniel: Core/clim-basic/utils.lisp (defun line-breaks …)
2019-09-30T08:35:58Z Shinmera: Thanks
2019-09-30T08:36:17Z jackdaniel: sure
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2019-09-30T09:12:50Z remexre: is there a simple way to load a file as a packed array of 32-bit ieee floats? I tried reading it as bytes and doing horrible hackery with cffi, but I got garbage data out
2019-09-30T09:14:26Z Shinmera: float-features has ways to convert integers to floats and back.
2019-09-30T09:14:28Z schweers: remexre: off the top of my head I don’t know a simple way, but I’d mmap the file and use CFFI.  I’ve done this before and it worked fine.
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2019-09-30T09:15:37Z schweers: I should add, that the file was also created this way, so alignment was not an issue for me.
2019-09-30T09:16:13Z heisig: remexre: Here is what I ended up with when I had that problem: https://github.com/marcoheisig/numpy-file-format/blob/0a6d1545b6bf66ae74e1a77ef40fb3a200d16a37/code/load-array.lisp#L71
2019-09-30T09:16:18Z remexre: Shinmera: like, to convert unsigned char[4] -> float ? I don't see one w/ a quick glance over the docs
2019-09-30T09:16:31Z Shinmera: remexre: https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features/blob/master/float-features.lisp#L299
2019-09-30T09:16:59Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features/blob/master/documentation.lisp#L234
2019-09-30T09:17:43Z Shinmera: nibbles and fast-io also have stuff for this.
2019-09-30T09:17:56Z Shinmera: err, fast-io doesn't, but nibbles does.
2019-09-30T09:18:05Z remexre: Shinmera: Ah, okay; it doesn't look like it's in the version in quicklisp / documented by quickdocs
2019-09-30T09:18:39Z Shinmera: Yeah, it's pretty recent.
2019-09-30T09:20:18Z remexre: heisig: probably gonna go with yours, since I already have ieee-floats on my machine from some other dependency
2019-09-30T09:20:23Z remexre: thanks all!
2019-09-30T09:21:14Z Shinmera: note that ieee-floats won't decode to native NaNs and Infinities, since those aren't portable.
2019-09-30T09:21:46Z Shinmera: it'll return a keyword for those, instead.
2019-09-30T09:22:11Z remexre: eh, tbh I want the crash there :P
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2019-09-30T09:22:21Z remexre: these values are "generally pretty small"
2019-09-30T09:22:34Z remexre: while representing physical quantities
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2019-09-30T09:33:03Z pjb: remexre: see com.informatimago.common-lisp.data-encoding.ieee-754
2019-09-30T09:34:37Z pjb: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.data-encoding.ieee-754:float-32-to-ieee-754 3.14) #| --> 1078523331 |#
2019-09-30T09:34:37Z pjb: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.data-encoding.ieee-754:ieee-754-to-float-32 1078523331) #| --> 3.14 |#
2019-09-30T09:35:57Z remexre: anything that does over ieee-floats though?
2019-09-30T09:36:10Z pjb: What do you mean?
2019-09-30T09:36:43Z remexre: doesn't the ieee-floats system provide the same functionality?
2019-09-30T09:37:41Z pjb: remexre: no. It uses implementation specific code.  My code is conforming.
2019-09-30T09:38:20Z White_Flame: ieee-floats has no implementation specific code
2019-09-30T09:38:46Z White_Flame: it does manual fiddling of the bit values in standard lisp code
2019-09-30T09:39:23Z pjb: I don't know what ieee-floats is.  In https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features/blob/master/float-features.lisp it's full of #+
2019-09-30T09:39:38Z White_Flame: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/ieee-floats/
2019-09-30T09:39:45Z remexre: https://github.com/marijnh/ieee-floats/blob/master/ieee-floats.lisp
2019-09-30T09:41:47Z pjb: Yes. Some NIH on my part. I didn't know about ieee-floats.
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2019-09-30T10:48:04Z afidegnum: why am i having space in my loop? https://dpaste.de/HoiE
2019-09-30T10:49:21Z beach: You aren't.
2019-09-30T10:49:28Z beach: NIL is just what LOOP returns by default.
2019-09-30T10:50:08Z beach: You really need to start thinking about values vs side effects.  And you need to distinguish between what your program does and what the REPL does.
2019-09-30T10:50:33Z afidegnum: ok
2019-09-30T10:51:03Z beach: Unless you mean that every other line is blank.  Is that what you mean?
2019-09-30T10:51:58Z beach: That is likely due to your data containing newlines.
2019-09-30T10:52:37Z beach: Nah, I take that back.
2019-09-30T10:52:38Z no-defun-allowed: I think it is the blank lines, and the " characters suggest there are no new lines in the strings printed.
2019-09-30T10:52:51Z beach: Yeah.
2019-09-30T10:53:20Z no-defun-allowed: I tested an equivalent program, and it printed without blank lines.
2019-09-30T10:53:45Z beach: I can't think of anything that PRINT would render as a blank line.
2019-09-30T10:54:04Z beach: Unless, of course, this is not Common Lisp.
2019-09-30T10:54:23Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (format t "~%" your-object)
2019-09-30T10:54:35Z no-defun-allowed: ...both in SLIME and in a plain terminal emulator. Maybe the printer is confused somehow, but it wouldn't output two Newline characters.
2019-09-30T10:54:39Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: Lurk harder please.
2019-09-30T10:54:42Z no-defun-allowed: asdf_asdf_asdf: Just don't.
2019-09-30T10:55:15Z no-defun-allowed: (loop for foo in '("hello" "there" "and" "good" "night") do (print foo)) ; prints as expected
2019-09-30T10:55:25Z beach: Yeah.
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2019-09-30T10:55:50Z no-defun-allowed: afidegnum: Are you using the Lisp interpreter in Emacs?
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2019-09-30T10:56:16Z no-defun-allowed: I tested that program in IELM, and it did output blank lines. Another indicator is that nil is lowercase, whereas in CL it is usually uppercase.
2019-09-30T10:56:29Z afidegnum: yes
2019-09-30T10:56:51Z beach: afidegnum: That is really not nice.  You ask a question in #lisp, pretending that your program is Common Lisp, and asking why the behavior is wrong.
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2019-09-30T10:57:07Z no-defun-allowed: Though Elisp does have a lot of Common Lisp (like LOOP) ported, it isn't a Common Lisp implementation and thus it is going to act weird.
2019-09-30T10:57:08Z beach: afidegnum: You either start using Common Lisp, or you stop asking questions about your code here.
2019-09-30T10:57:18Z afidegnum: i'm sorry, i m runing some code in lisp
2019-09-30T10:57:34Z afidegnum: CL
2019-09-30T10:57:52Z no-defun-allowed: I reccommend you avoid developing any large projects in Emacs Lisp that aren't extensions for your editor.
2019-09-30T10:58:13Z no-defun-allowed: *recommend - one day I'll spell that right the first time.
2019-09-30T10:58:42Z beach: afidegnum: Anyway, it is impossible to even reproduce your problem if you don't tell us what LP contains.
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2019-09-30T10:59:23Z afidegnum: i'm trying to write some code generators, i couldn't find a better way in CL or even racket, that's why i turned to emacs
2019-09-30T10:59:23Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Use C-M-i to fix the spelling error.
2019-09-30T11:00:01Z beach: [assuming you are running flyspell-mode of course]
2019-09-30T11:00:54Z no-defun-allowed: I really wish I was, on my desktop this Matrix client couldn't be any more broken while still being able to send simple messages.
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2019-09-30T11:01:39Z beach: afidegnum: If this code is Common Lisp, you need to tell us what LP contains for it to be possible to explain the behavior you see.
2019-09-30T11:03:19Z White_Flame: I've written tons of code generators
2019-09-30T11:03:55Z White_Flame: the problem usually isn't the output itself.  changing languages (cl->racket->el) most certainly is not addressing your issue
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2019-09-30T11:04:24Z no-defun-allowed: I'm quite sure it's an Elisp issue, and the documentation for PRINT agrees with me that there will be blank lines.
2019-09-30T11:04:39Z no-defun-allowed: "Output the printed representation of OBJECT, with newlines around it."
2019-09-30T11:05:47Z no-defun-allowed: Then it's not clear how Elisp is going to be easier than CL at code generation, as they both have the same macro system (defmacro), and CL is generally less broken.
2019-09-30T11:06:00Z afidegnum: i wish there would be an emacs competitor in CL
2019-09-30T11:06:35Z beach: no-defun-allowed: The documentation for PRINT in Emacs Lisp?
2019-09-30T11:06:46Z White_Flame: afidegnum: there's a few
2019-09-30T11:07:08Z no-defun-allowed: This is going to be anti-climactic, but there's a few Emacsen in CL: Hemlock, the one that Clozure has on macOS, first and second Climacs.
2019-09-30T11:07:31Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Yeah, I quote the first line of the documentation there (C-h f print).
2019-09-30T11:07:37Z beach: I see.
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2019-09-30T11:08:16Z no-defun-allowed: So, two newlines between each line, resulting in a blank line between them.
2019-09-30T11:08:43Z beach: afidegnum: So, you were executing code in Emacs Lisp without reading the Emacs Lisp documentation for PRINT, and then, when it does not behave the way you want, you ask a question in #lisp as if this behavior is strange, leading is to think it is Common Lisp.
2019-09-30T11:09:05Z beach: afidegnum: This is really impolite behavoir.
2019-09-30T11:09:09Z beach: behavior.
2019-09-30T11:09:17Z beach: [too late to correct]
2019-09-30T11:09:52Z beach: s/leading is/leading us/
2019-09-30T11:10:16Z afidegnum: my apologies, but my questions went unanswered in #elisp
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2019-09-30T11:10:59Z no-defun-allowed: I've never been on #emacs (the Matrix equivalent was absolutely terrible), but do they take Elisp questions?
2019-09-30T11:10:59Z beach: afidegnum: Like I said, this idea "The people in the appropriate channel didn't answer, so I asked where there are nice people, but in an inappropriate channel" is not acceptable.
2019-09-30T11:11:20Z beach: afidegnum: It is especially unacceptable if you lead people to believe that you are programming in Common Lisp.
2019-09-30T11:11:59Z no-defun-allowed: How long did you wait? IRC can move quite slowly too; #ecl has an average response time of 11 hours in their topic.
2019-09-30T11:12:01Z beach: afidegnum: Either you accept that #emacs will not be helpful, so you start programming in Common Lisp where there is a channel that will answer your questions, or else you look for your answers yourself.
2019-09-30T11:12:31Z beach: afidegnum: Do you really not see how annoying this behavior of yours is?
2019-09-30T11:12:56Z beach: afidegnum: You are basically punishing #lisp participants for being nice and present by wasting their time.
2019-09-30T11:12:58Z afidegnum: i'm really sorry, i'm under pressure
2019-09-30T11:13:11Z beach: And other #lisp participants aren't?
2019-09-30T11:13:18Z afidegnum: it won't happen again
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2019-09-30T11:13:23Z beach: Good.
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2019-09-30T11:14:47Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, final thought, I think you should also familisarise yourself with the documentation system in Emacs. If you type `C-h ?`, you will be presented with a list of keys you can use to read parts of the documentation, and `f` for function and `a` for apropos (symbol lookup) are probably the most useful for programming Emacs.
2019-09-30T11:15:25Z shinohai: Logged 07:04 afidegnum	i wish there would be an emacs competitor in CL  <<< I've used vim + vlime for years xD
2019-09-30T11:15:37Z shinohai: Maybe not "competition" but gets the job done.
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2019-09-30T11:16:42Z beach: shinohai: I think that's kind of the opposite of what was wished for.
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2019-09-30T11:26:47Z White_Flame: are there any tricks in SLIME to get indentation of a sublist to line up with the head, instead of with the 2nd element of a list?
2019-09-30T11:28:05Z White_Flame: some of my lines are "(foo (bar)\nbaz", and in some instances baz lines up with foo, and in others it lines up with (bar).  It's pulling something from the outer context?
2019-09-30T11:28:27Z White_Flame: (in the lisp source code itself)
2019-09-30T11:28:48Z beach: If it is considered code, it is indented as a function call with the arguments aligned vertically.
2019-09-30T11:29:01Z White_Flame: the whole nested thing starts with '(
2019-09-30T11:29:11Z beach: Hmm.
2019-09-30T11:29:18Z beach: If it is considered data, all the elements are all aligned.
2019-09-30T11:29:47Z beach: I guess Emacs just doesn't determine with very good precision whether it is one or the other.
2019-09-30T11:30:19Z White_Flame: yeah, but the fact that the same shaped inner scope behaves differently in 2 different locations is pretty screwy
2019-09-30T11:30:29Z beach: Sure.
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2019-09-30T11:31:02Z beach: Common Lisp indentation with Emacs is very screwy in general.
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2019-09-30T11:43:47Z beach: To save horizontal space, I indent MAKE-INSTANCE like CASE, i.e. the class after MAKE-INSTANCE on the same line, but the keyword/value pairs aligned and indented two spaces compared to the MAKE-INSTANCE form itself.  But then, the indentation of any slightly complicated form as the value in the key/value pair is wrong.
2019-09-30T11:44:40Z beach: In my opinion, the fact that the value is a form, and not data, should make the indentation rule for it independent of the context in which it is located.
2019-09-30T11:45:07Z White_Flame: it'd be great if there were commented special characters to control the indent mode on a line, like there is for the syntax mode at the top
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2019-09-30T11:45:30Z beach: Sure, that would be a possibility.
2019-09-30T11:45:54Z beach: But even better would be an editor that has a greater "awareness" of Common Lisp code.
2019-09-30T11:46:26Z White_Flame: well, when creating a data list, with lots of things nested & represented in there, awareness of CL itself doesn't help
2019-09-30T11:46:36Z White_Flame: but indentation control would be nice
2019-09-30T11:46:51Z White_Flame: this is a big nested language spec that I'm working on
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2019-09-30T13:53:32Z vms14: I'm making basic db stuff, I think I should make functions for database access so if I change the database later I'll just need to change only those functions and not the entire set
2019-09-30T13:53:37Z vms14: https://paste.debian.net/1103367
2019-09-30T13:53:53Z vms14: this is what I have atm, do you have some hints/advices?
2019-09-30T13:54:29Z beach: vms14: Did you get my remark about not mixing units and quantities.
2019-09-30T13:54:36Z beach: ?
2019-09-30T13:54:46Z vms14: I've read it, but not got it
2019-09-30T13:54:54Z beach: I see.
2019-09-30T13:55:07Z beach: "tension" is a quantity with "volt" as its unit.
2019-09-30T13:55:08Z vms14: I mean I didn't understand what you meant
2019-09-30T13:55:20Z beach: "current" is a quantity with "ampere" as its unit.
2019-09-30T13:55:30Z vms14: oh
2019-09-30T13:55:32Z beach: "resistance" is a quantity with "ohm" as its unit.
2019-09-30T13:55:42Z beach: I advise against mixing them.
2019-09-30T13:55:57Z vms14: so better to use just ohm volt and ampere
2019-09-30T13:55:57Z beach: And I recommend you use quantities everywhere.
2019-09-30T13:56:04Z beach: No, better use the quantities.
2019-09-30T13:56:19Z beach: Because several quantities can have the same unit.
2019-09-30T13:56:55Z vms14: why?
2019-09-30T13:57:23Z beach: You say circumference = 2π * radius, you don't say inchage = 2π * inchage
2019-09-30T13:57:46Z vms14: then is all about abstraction?
2019-09-30T13:57:54Z beach: If you like.
2019-09-30T13:58:06Z beach: But, the main thing is that units are not unique.
2019-09-30T13:58:29Z beach: You say speed = distance / time.
2019-09-30T13:58:39Z vms14: So it's better to use some sort of "group" to embrace all those units?
2019-09-30T13:58:45Z beach: Then you can measure distance and time and speed with whatever unit you want.
2019-09-30T13:59:04Z beach: If you want miles / hour, then you use miles for the distance and hour for the time.
2019-09-30T13:59:18Z beach: But the formula remains correct if you use meters and seconds.
2019-09-30T13:59:26Z vms14: I see
2019-09-30T13:59:32Z beach: The "group" is called "quantity".
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2019-09-30T14:00:17Z beach: Typical quantities are tension (not voltage), current (not amperage), resistance (not ohmage), distance (not inchage), time (not secondage).
2019-09-30T14:00:44Z White_Flame: I've always heard it as "potential", not "tension", but different countries
2019-09-30T14:00:46Z beach: mass (not poundage),
2019-09-30T14:01:05Z beach: White_Flame: potential is tension relative to ground.
2019-09-30T14:01:11Z vms14: and how I make quantities work fine with any unit?
2019-09-30T14:01:19Z vms14: just cond and alike?
2019-09-30T14:01:23Z beach: vms14: They do that automatically.
2019-09-30T14:01:52Z beach: vms14: Then you can have conversion formulas of course.
2019-09-30T14:02:04Z beach: vms14: Like between miles/hour and m/s
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2019-09-30T14:02:31Z beach: vms14: Speed is always distance divided by time whatever unit you use.
2019-09-30T14:03:44Z vms14: I'll try to remember this and apply it in all cases
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2019-09-30T14:03:54Z selwyn: quantites form in fact not only a "group" but a fully-fledged mathematical group which is occasionally of use
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2019-09-30T14:04:27Z selwyn: see the 'buckingham pi theorem' and dimensional analysis more generally for an example
2019-09-30T14:05:31Z vms14: but how I know the user is entering miles or meters?
2019-09-30T14:05:39Z vms14: I must force him to specify the unit?
2019-09-30T14:06:28Z vms14: like a (&key (type :meters))
2019-09-30T14:06:33Z White_Flame: "What's the distance?"  "6"
2019-09-30T14:06:34Z selwyn: i imagine so, unless you insist on a choice of units
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2019-09-30T14:06:53Z White_Flame: vs "What's the distance in miles?"  "6"   ... or "What's the distance?" "6 miles"
2019-09-30T14:07:21Z dlowe: "6 what?" "6 _units_"
2019-09-30T14:07:24Z selwyn: i am not familiar with your use case, but sometimes an application can be transparent enough not to impose units on the user
2019-09-30T14:08:26Z selwyn: opengl is like this: you specify all distances in terms of 'arbitrary units' which are normally taken to be metres but this is merely a convention
2019-09-30T14:08:58Z selwyn: *impose a choice of units
2019-09-30T14:09:28Z White_Flame: same with graphing math functions.  the axes are unitlesss
2019-09-30T14:09:46Z White_Flame: or, one could consider the unit to be 1
2019-09-30T14:10:07Z jackdaniel: on screen it gets even more complicated
2019-09-30T14:10:20Z jackdaniel: disregarding *what* unit you take you ask the question: relative to what?
2019-09-30T14:10:29Z jdz: vms14: Martin Cracauer has written a series of posts on the "units" topic: https://medium.com/@MartinCracauer/a-gentle-introduction-to-compile-time-computing-part-3-scientific-units-8e41d8a727ca
2019-09-30T14:10:42Z White_Flame: and the fact that you cannot represent a point or a line, without considering width & coverage
2019-09-30T14:10:47Z jackdaniel: to screen pixels? to physical distances? to angular distance (depending on how far the observant is)?
2019-09-30T14:11:24Z selwyn: angular distance is used in UI?
2019-09-30T14:11:34Z jackdaniel: CSS does specify it
2019-09-30T14:12:17Z jackdaniel: it is not unlikely that McCLIM will use it (with a possibility to set up the distance per frame) in a far future ahead
2019-09-30T14:13:31Z selwyn: i am trying to think of an application which wouldn't involve astronomy
2019-09-30T14:13:47Z jackdaniel: so, you may say: 20cm, you may say 300px or pi/16 and all three make sense
2019-09-30T14:14:51Z selwyn: experimental physicists often write out a factor of 2 pi explicitly in order to distinguish between e.g. frequency and angular frequency
2019-09-30T14:16:04Z White_Flame: of course, pi/16 also assumes radians, while the other 2 are explicit
2019-09-30T14:16:56Z selwyn: well, we assume it is in radians because it involves a factor of pi, but a computer cannot figure this out
2019-09-30T14:16:56Z vms14: jdz: seems a good post, ty
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2019-09-30T14:19:26Z selwyn: the alternative is to write (20 cm) (300 px) and then (1/32 (* 2 pi)) which makes clear that we are dealing with an angular quantity that cannot be confused with a genuinely dimensionless quantity, like, say, the percentage of a window that should be coloured in blank
2019-09-30T14:20:07Z White_Flame: it would seem to imply that the unit "2 pi" is "circle"
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2019-09-30T14:20:13Z White_Flame: (1/32 circle)
2019-09-30T14:20:33Z White_Flame: s/2 pi/2 pi radians/
2019-09-30T14:20:39Z selwyn: that is a useful effect of the notation, since a circle is 2 pi radians
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2019-09-30T14:21:05Z selwyn: (defunit circle (* 2 pi))
2019-09-30T14:21:23Z White_Flame: (defunit circle ((* 2 pi) rad))
2019-09-30T14:22:37Z selwyn: this is surprisingly useful in avoiding factor of 2 pi errors in experimental physics (at least for me)
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2019-09-30T14:23:18Z dlowe: #u(20 px)
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2019-09-30T14:24:36Z selwyn: White_Flame: yes 'angle' is the quantity and radian is the unit, my bad
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2019-09-30T15:04:20Z hjudt: when using "with =" clause of the loop facility, is it somehow possible to bind multiple return values?
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2019-09-30T15:05:01Z dlowe: hjudt: not the way you're wanting, no
2019-09-30T15:05:51Z hjudt: ok thnx
2019-09-30T15:05:59Z dlowe: with foo = (multiple-value-list (bar)) is one kludge
2019-09-30T15:06:19Z dlowe: you're probably better off just doing a multiple-value-bind outside of the loop
2019-09-30T15:07:09Z White_Flame: it destructures, so "with (x y) = (multiple-value-list (values 1 2))" works
2019-09-30T15:07:11Z Bike: you could 'with' a bunch of variables and then do multiple-value-setq, but that kinda sucks
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2019-09-30T15:07:59Z hjudt: if with destructures, then that would be great. i haven't found info about that in clhs though so i wasn't sure.
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2019-09-30T15:10:26Z Bike: it doesn't destructure values
2019-09-30T15:10:40Z dlowe: it does
2019-09-30T15:10:54Z Bike: it destructures lists. right?
2019-09-30T15:10:58Z dlowe: never mind. I misunderstood what you meant.
2019-09-30T15:11:07Z dlowe: it doesn't destructure values, as Bike said.
2019-09-30T15:11:17Z dlowe: loop destructuring: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_aag.htm
2019-09-30T15:11:26Z hjudt: nvm, i just found out i don't need it.
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2019-09-30T15:11:54Z hjudt: i can approach the problem from a different angle. thanks though.
2019-09-30T15:12:06Z aeth: I don't even use it for destructuring lists because it does it poorly compared to destructuring bind. Specifically, it doesn't error when destructuring-bind does, LOOP destructuring can't be used for parsing a plist if you want to check for validity of the plist at the same time
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2019-09-30T15:15:38Z aeth: (Although in this particular case, m-v-b won't error, either.)
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2019-09-30T17:26:52Z vms14: how can I use hunchentoot and have the lisp image available?
2019-09-30T17:27:15Z vms14: I'm using the example in hunch doc about how to subclass acceptors
2019-09-30T17:27:24Z vms14: everything works fine
2019-09-30T17:27:48Z vms14: But I see he creates two acceptors, which I did (hunchentoot:start vhost1)
2019-09-30T17:27:48Z vms14: (hunchentoot:start vhost2)
2019-09-30T17:28:25Z vms14: I'm only allowed to have one working since once I start one slime won't let me put more stuff
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2019-09-30T17:29:09Z vms14: they work fine, but I don't know how to make both work at same time
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2019-09-30T17:30:28Z vms14: ; pipelined request... (swank-repl:listener-eval this is what I have once I start one acceptor
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2019-09-30T17:30:59Z vms14: I thought making my "own" acceptors wouldn't block the image
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2019-09-30T17:37:59Z Xach: vms14: Are you using an implementation with threads?
2019-09-30T17:38:43Z vms14: sbcl
2019-09-30T17:38:50Z dlowe: what version?
2019-09-30T17:38:58Z Xach: vms14: Is it compiled with thread support?
2019-09-30T17:39:01Z vms14: how can I look if it supports threads?
2019-09-30T17:39:18Z dlowe: evaluate *features* at the repl
2019-09-30T17:40:35Z vms14: SBCL 1.4.3
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2019-09-30T17:41:02Z vms14: I'm not able to see any "thread" stuff in the output of *features*
2019-09-30T17:41:40Z vms14: oh
2019-09-30T17:41:42Z vms14:  (member :sb-thread *features*)
2019-09-30T17:41:43Z vms14: nil
2019-09-30T17:41:45Z vms14 cries
2019-09-30T17:42:12Z Xach: vms14: it is very easy to build your own sbcl with thread support. 1.4.3 is also Very Old. So upgrading to the latest and compiling yourself will have multiple benefits.
2019-09-30T17:42:30Z pjb: vms14: (ql:quickload :bordeaux-threads) bt:*SUPPORTS-THREADS-P*
2019-09-30T17:43:27Z vms14: it was compiled with pkgsrc
2019-09-30T17:43:38Z vms14: it used clisp as dependence
2019-09-30T17:43:39Z vms14: but
2019-09-30T17:43:54Z Xach: Now you can use 1.4.3 to build the latest.
2019-09-30T17:43:57Z vms14: what I see is that threads are disabled by default in non linux systems
2019-09-30T17:44:00Z vms14: threading support in lang/sbcl, which is
2019-09-30T17:44:00Z vms14: disabled by default for systems other than Linux.
2019-09-30T17:44:33Z Xach: vms14: what system do you use?
2019-09-30T17:44:38Z vms14: NetBSD
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2019-09-30T17:44:49Z vms14: pjb: (ql:quickload :bordeaux-threads) is loaded
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2019-09-30T17:45:07Z pjb: then bt:*SUPPORTS-THREADS-P* should tell you if the implementation supports threads.
2019-09-30T17:45:34Z vms14: nil
2019-09-30T17:45:36Z vms14 cries
2019-09-30T17:47:58Z vms14: Xach How I compile it
2019-09-30T17:48:07Z vms14: or what option/flag I need to set for threads?
2019-09-30T17:48:25Z Xach: vms14: download the sources, then run "time sh make.sh --fancy >& makelog" in the source directory. --fancy enables threads and some other useful things.
2019-09-30T17:48:25Z vms14: I'm downloading the source and it seems I just need to put make
2019-09-30T17:48:38Z vms14: oh
2019-09-30T17:48:38Z vms14: ty
2019-09-30T17:48:54Z vms14: I'm not sure if will work in NetBSD, but I'll try
2019-09-30T17:49:17Z Xach: vms14: Me neither, sorry. i don't know much about netbsd.
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2019-09-30T18:58:54Z vms14: WARNING! Some of the contrib modules did not build successfully or pass
2019-09-30T18:58:54Z vms14: their self-tests. Failed contribs:"
2019-09-30T18:58:54Z vms14:   sb-concurrency sb-introspect
2019-09-30T18:58:57Z vms14 cries
2019-09-30T18:59:13Z Josh_2: sad face
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2019-09-30T19:06:23Z dlowe: I thought I remembered a setting in slime where you could set swank to use SIGIO instead of threads
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2019-09-30T19:08:23Z easye: vms14: I'm not sure if you are able to contemplate patching SBCL to run on NetBSD, but if NetBSD has the "pthread_np.h" file looking at <https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/blob/master/lang/sbcl/files/patch-src_runtime_thread.c> and related files might help out.
2019-09-30T19:09:41Z vms14: I'm not able
2019-09-30T19:09:42Z vms14: xD
2019-09-30T19:09:58Z vms14: I'm trying again with everything by default
2019-09-30T19:10:13Z vms14: NetBSD has pkgsrc, which helps by compiling stuff
2019-09-30T19:10:50Z vms14: it's just a tree of folders with makefiles, when you type make inside a software folder it downloads and compiles the software from source
2019-09-30T19:11:22Z easye: Well, pkgsrc seems to have a recipe for SBCL as <https://cdn.netbsd.org/pub/pkgsrc/current/pkgsrc/lang/sbcl/README.html>  Have you tried this?
2019-09-30T19:11:23Z vms14: I've changed the makefile and tried to make it download the newest version, but then the patches were crying
2019-09-30T19:11:43Z vms14: then again with the shit version I have, but using sbcl to compile itself
2019-09-30T19:12:10Z vms14: and now I'm trying with the default, just changed make.sh --fancy, so it's using clisp to compile
2019-09-30T19:12:22Z vms14: but maybe will end in the same
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2019-09-30T19:14:57Z vms14: easye: it's useless
2019-09-30T19:15:02Z vms14: but thanks for trying xD
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2019-09-30T21:05:51Z vms14: Files whose names end in `.l' are assumed to be lisp files if their first non-blank
2019-09-30T21:05:51Z vms14:      character is `;', `(', or `[', otherwise, they are treated as lex files
2019-09-30T21:06:03Z vms14: wtf? I didn't know that
2019-09-30T21:06:32Z vms14: ;lisp.l
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2019-09-30T22:09:31Z p_l: vms14: used to be that you had big comment blocks at beginning of file :)
2019-09-30T22:11:14Z vms14: p_l: what?
2019-09-30T22:11:42Z vms14: in general you mean? time ago?
2019-09-30T22:11:53Z p_l: vms14: the reason why it checks for ; as first non-blank
2019-09-30T22:12:05Z p_l: in general, yes. Much less common today
2019-09-30T22:12:11Z vms14: oh
2019-09-30T22:12:22Z vms14: ty for making it clear
2019-09-30T22:12:37Z vms14: I was thinking it reffered to the filename
2019-09-30T22:12:37Z p_l: Symbolics source code had I think a paper page-full of legal boilerplate at beginning of each file
2019-09-30T22:12:53Z p_l: GNU tended to have big GPL disclaimer
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2019-09-30T22:13:24Z p_l: and of course Emacs mode setting, which also introduced comments on first line
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2019-09-30T22:13:58Z p_l: so if you had an '.l' extension, checking for whether it had lisp-like first character was good enough to distinguish from lex source code
2019-09-30T22:14:02Z vms14: so you have some time with lisp
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2019-09-30T22:25:13Z p_l: vms14: I guess. Nothing special around here, though
2019-09-30T22:25:28Z p_l: I just dabble with retrocomputing so I have certain things closer in mind
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2019-09-30T22:26:11Z vms14: p_l: what can you say about lisp?
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2019-09-30T22:31:15Z asdf_asdf_asdf: vms14. In Lisp not have reference like for example C. &my_reference_variable.
2019-09-30T22:31:33Z asdf_asdf_asdf: All/whole is reference, probably.
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2019-09-30T22:35:16Z p_l: vms14: that it's one of the best languages I have ever used? It's a long story that needs better venue :)
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2019-09-30T22:42:55Z no-defun-allowed: asdf_asdf_asdf: Lisp respects what beach calls uniform resource semantics, where an object is always one reference away.
2019-09-30T22:43:04Z no-defun-allowed: http://metamodular.com/Software-engineering/uniform-reference-semantics.html
2019-09-30T22:45:46Z asdf_asdf_asdf: no-defun-allowed. Thanks for link. "is implicit." <-- Did mean, that low level in language Lisp is implement reference, but high level is not needed, becuase is implicit? If really can, that using "hacks", no?
2019-09-30T22:46:43Z no-defun-allowed: You cannot manipulate pointers in Lisp portably.
2019-09-30T22:47:10Z vms14: p_l: I cannot arge too much, but It seems to be right, Lisp is one of the best languages I've seen
2019-09-30T22:47:35Z no-defun-allowed: In SBCL, you can get the address of an object, but it's useless because I don't think you can get the object back by dereferencing it, and it uses a moving garbage collector that will invalidate that address.
2019-09-30T22:47:54Z vms14: but I need to get used to fp and macros
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2019-09-30T22:50:40Z asdf_asdf_asdf: no-defun-allowed. Like (gensym) invalidate that address?
2019-09-30T22:51:47Z no-defun-allowed: What does gensym have to do with the garbage collector?
2019-09-30T22:52:06Z no-defun-allowed: It could though, if SBCL runs out of space and decides to collect to free some space.
2019-09-30T22:52:07Z aeth: vms14: CL's a good middle ground between "angry compiler" languages like C++ and Java, and interpreted languages like Python that won't tell you that you're creating a new, unused "fooabr = 42" when you wanted to set foobar to 42
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2019-09-30T22:54:17Z asdf_asdf_asdf: no-defun-allowed. Is it possible to take references from the object?
2019-09-30T22:54:33Z no-defun-allowed: No it isn't. Stop trying to treat Lisp like C.
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2019-09-30T22:55:33Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Any compiler hacks or tricks?
2019-09-30T22:56:26Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: afaik asdf_asdf_asdf is trying to directly translate C or C++ into CL
2019-09-30T22:56:33Z aeth: which obviously isn't going to work
2019-09-30T22:56:46Z no-defun-allowed: asdf_asdf_asdf: Stop it.
2019-09-30T22:56:50Z aeth: (at least, not as directly as literally translating idioms like &foo or whatever)
2019-09-30T22:57:45Z vms14: aeth: but how to get money with cl?
2019-09-30T22:57:59Z aeth: from what I've seen, asdf_asdf_asdf doesn't seem to understand the difference between CFFI and literally trying to 1:1 write C in CL
2019-09-30T22:58:09Z no-defun-allowed: (defstruct money) (make-money)
2019-09-30T22:58:10Z vms14: I feel forced to learn other languages just to get hired
2019-09-30T22:58:19Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: oh
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2019-09-30T22:58:57Z vms14: and it's sad because I could invest this time in cl instead of learn random languages
2019-09-30T22:59:56Z asdf_asdf_asdf: No. I know, that it's not possible translate identical code from C to SBCL, but my question is... How hacks or tricks get reference and change value variable?
2019-09-30T23:00:02Z vms14: the only way seems to be mounting startups, anyway there are some jobs for lisp
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2019-09-30T23:01:16Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: You can't do that for any arbitrary thing because the garbage collector might move its memory location around. There are certain things that are in unmovable memory, though. e.g. https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors/
2019-09-30T23:01:24Z no-defun-allowed: I'm telling you, you can't get references to objects.
2019-09-30T23:01:46Z Bike: asdf has been doing this for what, months now? and i already told them what aeth did
2019-09-30T23:01:57Z Bike: they do not care
2019-09-30T23:02:01Z aeth: at least May, I checked logs
2019-09-30T23:03:02Z aeth: not only is asdf_asdf_asdf doing it the wrong way, but borodust at the time offered to wrap the headers automatically in (his estimation) 15 minutes... so this whole 4-month (at least) adventure could've been over then.
2019-09-30T23:03:35Z aeth: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1557951447#1557951447
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2019-09-30T23:03:50Z aeth: It's difficult, advanced CL, and there's an automated solution that can make you move onto the next problem
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2019-09-30T23:46:35Z no-defun-allowed: Did anything relevant to Lisp other than ELS happen last April?
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